# U.S. Fracking's Larger Implications



## Mr. H.

I could have buried this in one of the many existing threads on Fracking, but it deserves it's own look. 

The article touches on the effects of increased U.S. natural gas production in far-flung parts of the world including the Middle East, China, Russia, Venezuela, etc. 

*U.S. Shale Boom Reduces Russian Influence Over European Gas Market*

_The U.S. shale gas boom has not only virtually eliminated the need for U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports for at least two decades, but significantly reduced Russias influence over the European natural gas market and "diminished the petro-power" of major gas producers in the Middle East and Venezuela._

*And here's the kicker*- Obama's proposed tax policies are directed at bringing the American oil and natural gas industries to it's knees:

_Changes to U.S. tax policy for upstream oil and gas, including proposed changes to expensing rules, investment credits, and/or royalty rates, could also make shale exploration and production unprofitable at current prices._


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## chikenwing

Mr. H. said:


> I could have buried this in one of the many existing threads on Fracking, but it deserves it's own look.
> 
> The article touches on the effects of increased U.S. natural gas production in far-flung parts of the world including the Middle East, China, Russia, Venezuela, etc.
> 
> *U.S. Shale Boom Reduces Russian Influence Over European Gas Market*
> 
> _The U.S. shale gas boom has not only virtually eliminated the need for U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports for at least two decades, but significantly reduced Russias influence over the European natural gas market and "diminished the petro-power" of major gas producers in the Middle East and Venezuela._
> 
> *And here's the kicker*- Obama's proposed tax policies are directed at bringing the American oil and natural gas industries to it's knees:
> 
> _Changes to U.S. tax policy for upstream oil and gas, including proposed changes to expensing rules, investment credits, and/or royalty rates, could also make shale exploration and production unprofitable at current prices._



Not to mention the added influence US citizens would gain over their own economic futures.

The no drill/no spill anti gas crowd are at the peak  of hypocrisy as they pound their signs in their yards next to the gas meter feeding their home.


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## KissMy

Obama will use the governments political arm called the EPA to stop us from Fracking.

EPA: Fracking may cause groundwater pollution


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## Mr. H.

This is so preliminary and fraught with potential errors. Why was this "report" released so early?

Here are some hard documented facts regarding agrigulture and livestock pollution:

&#8226;California officials identify agriculture, including cows, as the major source of nitrate pollution in more than 100,000 square miles of polluted groundwater.


&#8226;In Oklahoma, nitrates from Seaboard Farms' hog operations contaminated drinking water wells, prompting the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to issue an emergency order in June 2001 requiring the company to provide safe drinking water to area residents. 


&#8226;In 1996 the Centers for Disease Control established a link between spontaneous abortions and high nitrate levels in Indiana drinking water wells located close to feedlots. 


&#8226;High levels of nitrates in drinking water also increase the risk of methemoglobinemia, or "blue-baby syndrome," which can kill infants. 


&#8226;Animal waste contains disease-causing pathogens, such as Salmonella, E. coli, Cryptosporidium, and fecal coliform, which can be 10 to 100 times more concentrated than in human waste. More than 40 diseases can be transferred to humans through manure. 


&#8226;In May 2000, 1,300 cases of gastroenteritis were reported and six people died as the result of E. coli contaminating drinking water in Walkerton, Ontario. Health authorities determined that the most likely source was cattle manure runoff. 


&#8226;Manure from dairy cows is thought to have contributed to the disastrous Cryptosporidium contamination of Milwaukee's drinking water in 1993, which killed more than 100 people, made 400,000 sick and resulted in $37 million in lost wages and productivity. 


&#8226;In this country, roughly 29 million pounds of antibiotics -- about 80 percent of the nation's antibiotics use in total -- are added to animal feed every year to speed livestock growth. This widespread use of antibiotics on animals contributes to the rise of resistant bacteria, making it harder to treat human illnesses. 


&#8226;Large hog farms emit hydrogen sulfide, a gas that most often causes flu-like symptoms in humans, but at high concentrations can lead to brain damage. In 1998, the National Institute of Health reported that 19 people died as a result of hydrogen sulfide emissions from manure pits.

Shall we shut down farming and livestock production?

NRDC: Facts about Pollution from Livestock Farms


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## ABikerSailor

Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.

Still think it's a good idea?


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## Mr. H.

That's a loaded question.
Loaded with bullshit.

After six decades and tens of thousands of wells, proper fracturing techniques have proven themselves.


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## ABikerSailor

Mr. H. said:


> That's a loaded question.
> Loaded with bullshit.
> 
> After six decades and tens of thousands of wells, proper fracturing techniques have proven themselves.



Used to be that way until they quit using water and started using propietary chemicals in the mixture.

Watch Gasland sometime.

And yeah.......fracking has caused earthquakes, just ask the UK.


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## Mr. H.

Re: Gasland...

"...according to the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, which tested Markham's water in 2008, there were "no indications of oil & gas related impacts to water well." Instead the investigation found that the methane was "biogenic" in nature, meaning it was naturally occurring and that his water well was drilled into a natural gas pocket."

http://cogcc.state.co.us/library/GASLAND DOC.pdf

Earthquakes? Likely...

UK firm says shale fracking caused earthquakes | Reuters

However, there are over 1 million naturally occuring earthquakes each year.


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## Middleoftheroad

Mr. H. said:


> Re: Gasland...
> 
> "...according to the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, which tested Markham's water in 2008, there were "no indications of oil & gas related impacts to water well." Instead the investigation found that the methane was "biogenic" in nature, meaning it was naturally occurring and that his water well was drilled into a natural gas pocket."
> 
> http://cogcc.state.co.us/library/GASLAND DOC.pdf
> 
> Earthquakes? Likely...
> 
> UK firm says shale fracking caused earthquakes | Reuters
> 
> However, there are over 1 million naturally occuring earthquakes each year.



From your link


> Even if tremors occurred, the magnitude of any future tremors would be no more than around 3 on the Richter scale as a "worst-case scenario", it said.


Magnitude 3 earthquakes don't count.  You would basically have to be standing on the fault line to even feel it, even then you might not notice.  No one would be injured and no damage would be done.  I used to live in California, and I can tell you that most people don't notice anything below a 4.0.  Personally I have not even noticed low 4's.


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## RGR

ABikerSailor said:


> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?



Small earthquake...sure....no different than a train passing by really. And no,a frac doesn't make flammable water. Less propaganda....more actual thinking please...


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## RGR

ABikerSailor said:


> Watch Gasland sometime.



Thats the name of the propaganda. Apparently gasland didn't realize that if you actually were fracing, what 3000 psi does to home water piping.


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## Mr. H.

Anyhow- getting back to the first post- the practice of hydraulic fracturing which has been employed for nearly 60 years is just now granting the U.S. access to previously untapped reserves of hydrocarbons. In so much that it is turning world energy markets upside down and rewriting the hydrocarbon-political landscape. 

Obama doesn't recognise this. He isn't capable of connecting the dots. He'll choose to stamp our nation's true assets into oblivion while outsourcing real economic development in the name  such noble causes as perceived environmental gain and redistribution of wealth from the true creators of commerce to the non-productive consumer.


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## Crackerjack

ABikerSailor said:


> Watch Gasland sometime.


_Gasland_ is chock full of bullshit.

Attacking natural gas is about the dumbest thing environmentalists can do if they are actually interested in the environment.  It's about the cleanest, safest fuel we have available to us today.  If they actually gave a shit about the environment, they'd be beating down the White House door to have Obama clear the way for the Keystone XL and further natural gas drilling.


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## JiggsCasey

Crackerjack said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Gasland sometime.
> 
> 
> 
> _Gasland_ is chock full of bullshit.
> 
> Attacking natural gas is about the dumbest thing environmentalists can do if they are actually interested in the environment.  It's about the cleanest, safest fuel we have available to us today.  If they actually gave a shit about the environment, they'd be beating down the White House door to have Obama clear the way for the Keystone XL and further natural gas drilling.
Click to expand...


lolfail

*Wall Street Journal Spins Fracking Study To Downplay Risks
*June 28, 2011 4:46 pm ET
A Wall Street Journal editorial obscured the fact that a Duke University study strongly suggested methane from a natural gas extraction process known as hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, contaminated water supplies.

*WSJ Dismisses Duke University Findings On Methane Contamination
*WSJ Suggested There Is No Evidence The High Methane Concentration Was From Fracking Operations. The editorial said of the Duke study: "They had no baseline data and thus no way of knowing if methane concentrations were high prior to drilling":

A second charge, based on a Duke University study, claims that fracking has polluted drinking water with methane gas. Methane is naturally occurring and isn't by itself harmful in drinking water, though it can explode at high concentrations. Duke authors Rob Jackson and Avner Vengosh have written that their research shows "the average methane concentration to be 17 times higher in water wells located within a kilometer of active drilling sites."

They failed to note that researchers sampled a mere 68 wells across Pennsylvania and New York--where more than 20,000 water wells are drilled annually. They had no baseline data and thus no way of knowing if methane concentrations were high prior to drilling. They also acknowledged that methane was detected in 85% of the wells they tested, regardless of drilling operations, and that they'd found no trace of fracking fluids in any wells. [Wall Street Journal, 6/25/11]

In Fact, Duke Geochemical Analysis Strongly Suggested The Wells Are Source Of Water Contamination. The Journal editorial failed to mention that "that the type of gas detected at high levels in the water was the same type of gas that energy companies were extracting from thousands of feet underground," as reported by ProPublica:
*For the rest of the article go to the link*

Wall Street Journal Spins Fracking Study To Downplay Risks | Media Matters for America​
Right-wing rag hit piece op-eds? Really? Do better. 

Regardless, NGLs don't make diesel.

NGLs have 50% of the BTUs that the same volume of crude oil has. You can't get the same ooomph from it barrel for barrel.

It does have a market.  NGLs, are largely used to make plastic. That's fine and dandy, and even meaningful, but the world's populace can be fed without plastic.  It can't be fed without crude pushing tractors and trucks around.


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## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> Regardless, NGLs don't make diesel.



Welcome back parrot.

NGL's can make anything you'd like. Heavier NGLs we used to put right in the gas tanks of our Ford well tending trucks. Keeping the NGLs in the natural gas stream, and you can refine the stuff into synthetic crude which can refined into jet fuel. Or diesel.

Qatar First to Fly with Jet Fuel Based on Natural Gas - US News and World Report

Looks like you didn't use your time away to actually learn anything parrot.


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## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> JiggsCasey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless, NGLs don't make diesel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome back parrot.
> 
> NGL's can make anything you'd like. Heavier NGLs we used to put right in the gas tanks of our Ford well tending trucks. Keeping the NGLs in the natural gas stream, and you can refine the stuff into synthetic crude which can refined into jet fuel. Or diesel.
> 
> Qatar First to Fly with Jet Fuel Based on Natural Gas - US News and World Report
> 
> Looks like you didn't use your time away to actually learn anything parrot.
Click to expand...


LOL... The snake oil sales continue. I'm noticing you're a lot of talk, but never any source. The one link you DID provide shifts gears to jet fuel, not diesel that might power 18-wheelers to deliver food and other goods, which is what we're obviously talking about. Dishonest much?

Regardless, from your own fucking link, loser:

_But high production costs mean Qatar's new fuel is unlikely to seriously challenge existing jet fuel any time soon.

"The capital costs are still a concern ... It's pretty expensive to convert natural gas even if you have a low cost feedstock" like Qatar has, Yeasting said._​
Do better.

I know you don't read my links that routinely put your tired denialst screed to bed, but you DO actually read your OWN links, right?  Jesus, do you suck at this.


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## KissMy

Jet fuel is nearly the same as diesel. I had a cheap source of jet fuel for a while. I ran more than a thousand gallons of jet fuel in my diesel truck.


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## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome back parrot.
> 
> NGL's can make anything you'd like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _But high production costs mean Qatar's new fuel is unlikely to seriously challenge existing jet fuel any time soon.
> 
> "The capital costs are still a concern ... It's pretty expensive to convert natural gas even if you have a low cost feedstock" like Qatar has, Yeasting said._​
> Do better.
Click to expand...


I am not required to. You said that you can't make diesel from NGLs, you didn't say anything about economics, capital investment, or anything else beyond your usual categorical, and wrong, statement. You can make jet fuel from NGLs just like you can diesel fuel. Like I said before, you should have taken your time away from the board to learn something. And find us someone with a brain please, your incessant ignorance, while amazing, is also tiring.


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## RGR

KissMy said:


> Jet fuel is nearly the same as diesel. I had a cheap source of jet fuel for a while. I ran more than a thousand gallons of jet fuel in my diesel truck.



Jet fuel is like kerosene. And kerosene is like diesel. Which is why Jiggsy comes off as nothing but a mindless parrot. If he parroted accurate information, none of us would object as much I imagine.


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## Mr. H.

$4.5 billion investment capital coming into the U.S. economy...
Nothing to sneeze at. 
Let's see Obama top this. 

Sinopec, Total pour $4.5 billion into U.S. shale

Sinopec, Total pour $4.5 billion into U.S. shale - Yahoo! News

(Reuters) - _China's Sinopec <600028.SS> and France's Total SA made major purchases into the U.S. energy sector on Tuesday, pouring $4.5 billion into deals to buy into booming production from shale rock formations.

The ventures showed that the global appetite for U.S. energy assets remained strong, with foreign oil and gas producers eager to invest in several of the mostly undeveloped fields that are believed to hold billions of cubic feet of natural gas and liquids._


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## waltky

Fracking wastewater becoming leading environmental issue...

*Ohio quakes could incite fracking policy shift*
_Tue Jan 3,`12  In Ohio, geographically and politically positioned to become a leading importer of wastewater from gas drilling, environmentalists and lawmakers opposed to the technique known as fracking are seizing on a series of small earthquakes as a signal to proceed with caution._


> Earthquakes caused by the injection of wastewater that's a byproduct of high-pressure hydraulic fracture drilling, aren't new. Yet earthquakes have a special ability to grab public attention.  That's especially true after Saturday's quake near Youngstown, at magnitude 4.0 strong enough to be felt across hundreds of square miles. Gov. John Kasich, a drilling proponent, has shut down the wastewater well on which the quake has been blamed, along with others in the area, as the seismic activity is reviewed.  "Drilling's very important for our economy and to help us progress as a state, but every single person in the Mahoning Valley felt this earthquake," said state Sen. Joe Schiavoni, a Youngstown Democrat who on Tuesday called for a public hearing.  "I wouldn't deem it as an emergency, but when you live in a place that you're not used to earthquakes and you have 11 earthquakes, you're concerned," he said. "We need to give them some sort of confidence or security that this is going to be OK."
> 
> Fracking involves blasting millions of gallons of water, laced with chemicals and sand, deep into the ground to unlock vast reserves of natural gas, a boon both for energy companies and a public hungry for cheap sources of fuel.  That process, though, leaves behind toxic wastewater that must be expensively treated or else pumped deep into the earth. The wastewater is extremely briny and can contain toxic chemicals from the drilling process  and sometimes radioactivity from deep underground.  The practice of dumping underground has been controversial in light of scant research done on potential environmental dangers, highlighted by reports of contamination of aquifers in some communities in Pennsylvania and Wyoming. Some states are reconsidering it.
> 
> A coalition of environmental groups is preparing a protest for next week's return of the Ohio Legislature. Activists opposed to increased oil and gas drilling activity across Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York and West Virginia  where the Utica and Marcellus Shale formations are believed to hold vast quantities of gas  see trouble with the Ohio injection well. It took wastewater from fracking, as well as other forms of drilling.  "What other business or industry isn't held accountable for its full cradle-to-grave processes?" said Deborah Nardone, director of the Sierra Club's Natural Gas Campaign. "They need to be responsible for the waste stream that they've created."  Ohio's closure of the well will have little to no impact on drilling, said Travis Windle, a spokesman for the Marcellus Shale Coalition, an industry group based in Pennsylvania. Four of the five wells that Ohio shut down were not operational, Windle said.
> 
> Pennsylvania's drillers have turned in recent months to deep-well injection of millions of gallons of wastewater because of a voluntary state moratorium last year on dumping of waste at treatment plants where the partially treated liquids are discharged into rivers and streams that drinking water is taken from.  Most drillers in Pennsylvania accepted a voluntary state moratorium last year on dumping of waste at treatment plants, which had discharged the partially treated mix into rivers and streams that supply drinking water. Many drillers now recycle the drilling fluid, and some turned to deep-well injection of millions of gallons of the wastewater.  Pennsylvania has six deep injection wells that currently accept fracking fluid, said Amanda Witman, a spokeswoman for the Department of Environmental Protection. But some of its waste is trucked into Ohio, where the geology allows for more injection wells.
> 
> MORE


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## Mr. H.

"Laced with chemicals..."?

1/2 of 1%

The natural gas industry is committed to disclosure and transparency.
Here's a link to more information. 
It contains a searchable database/map where you can locate fractured wells and open a PDF that lists the makeup of frac fluids used in each job.

Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry


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## ABikerSailor

Mr. H. said:


> "Laced with chemicals..."?
> 
> 1/2 of 1%
> 
> The natural gas industry is committed to disclosure and transparency.
> Here's a link to more information.
> It contains a searchable database/map where you can locate fractured wells and open a PDF that lists the makeup of frac fluids used in each job.
> 
> Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry



Transparency?  Really?  

Did you forget about the proprietary mixes that the companies WON'T let be made public?


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## Truthmatters

Ohio earthquake was not a natural event, expert says - Yahoo! News

I started a thread about it but the right avoided it


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## Mr. H.

ABikerSailor said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Laced with chemicals..."?
> 
> 1/2 of 1%
> 
> The natural gas industry is committed to disclosure and transparency.
> Here's a link to more information.
> It contains a searchable database/map where you can locate fractured wells and open a PDF that lists the makeup of frac fluids used in each job.
> 
> Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transparency?  Really?
> 
> Did you forget about the proprietary mixes that the companies WON'T let be made public?
Click to expand...


I'm interested. Got anything for me to read?


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## Mr. H.

Truthmatters said:


> Ohio earthquake was not a natural event, expert says - Yahoo! News
> 
> I started a thread about it but the right avoided it



And you're avoiding a reply.

Oh- BTW, plenty of folks from the "left" are also involved in this industry. 

They just happen to know what the fuck is going on, unlike armchair whacks.


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## Truthmatters

Its causes fucking earthquakes!

It is not safe


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## Mr. H.

Truthmatters said:


> Its causes fucking earthquakes!
> 
> It is not safe



So, you post a story that states the quake "may have been caused by..."
then follow it with that statement?

Are you always this presumptuous?

And you get no confrontation within one hour of starting the thread and then say "the right is avoiding it".

Are you always this impatient?


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## Katzndogz

If the left throws a virgin into a volcano the earthquake gods will not make any more earthquakes.

Which is exactly what their foolishness sounds like.


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## ABikerSailor

Mr. H. said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its causes fucking earthquakes!
> 
> It is not safe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you post a story that states the quake "may have been caused by..."
> then follow it with that statement?
> 
> Are you always this presumptuous?
> 
> And you get no confrontation within one hour of starting the thread and then say "the right is avoiding it".
> 
> Are you always this impatient?
Click to expand...


Interestingly enough, the UK has banned fracking because of earthquakes.


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## ABikerSailor

Mr. H. said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Laced with chemicals..."?
> 
> 1/2 of 1%
> 
> The natural gas industry is committed to disclosure and transparency.
> Here's a link to more information.
> It contains a searchable database/map where you can locate fractured wells and open a PDF that lists the makeup of frac fluids used in each job.
> 
> Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transparency?  Really?
> 
> Did you forget about the proprietary mixes that the companies WON'T let be made public?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm interested. Got anything for me to read?
Click to expand...


Yep.  Pay attention to the bolded part where they claim it's a proprietary secret.

And............if the fluid is so safe, why are so many states requiring the following?



> Colorado and Texas have joined Pennsylvania in adopting rules requiring drilling companies to disclose the concentrations of all chemicals in hydraulic fracturing, the controversial procedure that injects millions of gallons underground to free natural gas and oil.
> 
> The guidelines that Colorado's regulators approved Tuesday are similar to those required by a law passed in Texas this year but go further by requiring the concentrations of chemicals to be disclosed. Colorado's rule takes effect in April.
> 
> Pennsylvania has regulations in place requiring drillers to disclose on a well-by-well basis the additives and chemicals used in fracturing fluid injected deep underground into oil and natural gas wells.
> 
> The state Department of Environmental Protection's website lists 70 chemicals and additives companies commonly use in fracking fluid, but it does not post on its website the hydraulic fluid contents used at specific wells or by the companies that supply the drillers with fracking fluid.
> 
> Some of that information is disclosed on the FracFocus.org website. But those seeking that specific information on the chemicals used in a well must get such a report at the Department of Environmental Protection's regional offices. The agency's office on Washington's Landing in Pittsburgh covers 10 Southwestern Pennsylvania counties.
> 
> *In the case of Colorado, drillers claiming that the fluid's contents are a trade secret, still will have to disclose the ingredient's chemical family.*
> In Texas, companies must list the chemicals on a national registry, Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry, beginning Feb. 1.
> 
> The Texas Railroad Commission adopted rules yesterday to enforce a law passed by that state's legislature.
> 
> Texas will require companies to disclose chemicals but not concentrations. Other states, such as Colorado, require disclosure of concentrations.
> 
> 
> Read more: More states require disclosure of chemicals in fracking fluid - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review More states require disclosure of chemicals in fracking fluid - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review


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## Mr. H.

ABikerSailor said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Transparency?  Really?
> 
> Did you forget about the proprietary mixes that the companies WON'T let be made public?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested. Got anything for me to read?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep.  Pay attention to the bolded part where they claim it's a proprietary secret.
> 
> And............if the fluid is so safe, why are so many states requiring the following?
Click to expand...


Thanks for that. Looks like disclosure and transparency to me. 
BTW, I didn't use the term "so safe". 
I am however still waiting for proof positive that fracking fluids habitually invade fresh water tables during the actual process. 

Fracturing isn't a new phenomenon. It's been practiced for over 50 years.
What is relatively new is the absurd fear surrounding it. 
And that's probably due to its recent success in unlocking trapped hydrocarbons. There's a boom going on in this country, fracturing jobs have skyrocketed, and more people are becoming aware about it. "Becoming aware" doesn't translate to understanding the entire process. 

A positive development is the introduction and/or re-writing of state oil and gas regulations to accomodate this increase in activity. Individual states are capable of implementing such laws without the meddling of the EPA. 

Regarding "proprietary mixes", fracking fluids or "slurries" are often customized for each particular job. Companies spend huge sums on research and development and they understandably want to protect their investment. The same can be said for the chemicals involved. 

If you come across anything else I'd appreciate you sharing it.


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## Old Rocks

EPA Blames Fracking for Wyoming Groundwater Contamination | StateImpact Pennsylvania

For the first time, fed*eral envi*ron*men*tal reg*u*la*tors have made a direct link between the con*tro*ver*sial drilling prac*tice known as hydraulic frac*tur*ing and ground*wa*ter contamination.

The EPA released on Thurs*day its draft inves*ti*ga*tion results on water pol*lu*tion in the Wyoming town of Pavilion.

This fed*eral find*ing link*ing &#8220;frack*ing&#8221; and ground*wa*ter pol*lu*tion could have wide*spread reper*cus*sions. Sev*eral states, includ*ing New York and Penn*syl*va*nia, are in the midst of cre*at*ing new gas-drilling reg*u*la*tions. Up until this report, indus*try rep*re*sen*ta*tives, along with the head of Pennsylvania&#8217;s Depart*ment of Envi*ron*men*tal Pro*tec*tion, have said no per*sua*sive evi*dence exists link*ing frack*ing directly to prob*lems with water qual*ity. DEP Sec*re*tary Michael Krancer recently tes*ti*fied in Con*gress that the idea that frack*ing pol*lutes ground*wa*ter is &#8220;bogus.&#8221;

Res*i*dents of Pavil*ion, Wy., began com*plain*ing about drink*ing water that smelled like chem*i*cals back in 2008. Inten*sive drilling for nat*ural gas in the area began in the late 1990&#8217;s and con*tin*ued until 2006. The area now has 169 nat*ural gas wells.

The draft report says inves*ti*ga*tors have found com*pounds in Pavilion&#8217;s ground*wa*ter asso*ci*ated with frack*ing. The EPA found high con*cen*tra*tions of ben*zene, xylene, gaso*line and diesel fuel in shal*low ground*wa*ter sup*plies that they linked to waste*water pits. But the report also found a num*ber of frack*ing chem*i*cals in much deeper fresh water wells.


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## Old Rocks

In the West, water is a valued and often rare resource. More fights over water rights than gold. So even a few poisoned aquifers will create a huge resevoir of ill will. It is incumbent on the companies doing the fracking to assess the danger to the aquifers before drilling.


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## Mr. H.

Old Rocks said:


> EPA Blames Fracking for Wyoming Groundwater Contamination | StateImpact Pennsylvania
> 
> For the first time, fed*eral envi*ron*men*tal reg*u*la*tors have made a direct link between the con*tro*ver*sial drilling prac*tice known as hydraulic frac*tur*ing and ground*wa*ter contamination.
> 
> The EPA released on Thurs*day its draft inves*ti*ga*tion results on water pol*lu*tion in the Wyoming town of Pavilion.
> 
> This fed*eral find*ing link*ing frack*ing and ground*wa*ter pol*lu*tion could have wide*spread reper*cus*sions. Sev*eral states, includ*ing New York and Penn*syl*va*nia, are in the midst of cre*at*ing new gas-drilling reg*u*la*tions. Up until this report, indus*try rep*re*sen*ta*tives, along with the head of Pennsylvanias Depart*ment of Envi*ron*men*tal Pro*tec*tion, have said no per*sua*sive evi*dence exists link*ing frack*ing directly to prob*lems with water qual*ity. DEP Sec*re*tary Michael Krancer recently tes*ti*fied in Con*gress that the idea that frack*ing pol*lutes ground*wa*ter is bogus.
> 
> Res*i*dents of Pavil*ion, Wy., began com*plain*ing about drink*ing water that smelled like chem*i*cals back in 2008. Inten*sive drilling for nat*ural gas in the area began in the late 1990s and con*tin*ued until 2006. The area now has 169 nat*ural gas wells.
> 
> The draft report says inves*ti*ga*tors have found com*pounds in Pavilions ground*wa*ter asso*ci*ated with frack*ing. The EPA found high con*cen*tra*tions of ben*zene, xylene, gaso*line and diesel fuel in shal*low ground*wa*ter sup*plies that they linked to waste*water pits. But the report also found a num*ber of frack*ing chem*i*cals in much deeper fresh water wells.



What's with all those ateriskiskiskisks?


----------



## Old Rocks

Have no idea. Not on the linked page.


----------



## Mr. H.

I did read at the link. Very telling. 
But is it damnable to the point of sounding a death knell for fracking nationwide?
Isn't this what many people want, regardless?


----------



## Old Rocks

No, I don't think that it is. But it will be if the industry disregardes the warnings and destroy aquifers. We can live without the natural gas, we cannot live without the water.


----------



## whitehall

The bottom line is that the price of energy impacts everything and democrats don't seem to care. Barry Hussein nominated a communist former leader of an arson and looting rampage to be on his "green jobs board". That shows how much he cares about energy prices. There ain't no green jobs and Van Jones is leading the OWS amateur socialist revolution today.


----------



## Old Rocks

whitehall said:


> The bottom line is that the price of energy impacts everything and democrats don't seem to care. Barry Hussein nominated a communist former leader of an arson and looting rampage to be on his "green jobs board". That shows how much he cares about energy prices. There ain't no green jobs and Van Jones is leading the OWS amateur socialist revolution today.



Sure, Whitey, sure.

ASES News: Green Jobs Overview

The renewable energy and energy efficiency (RE&EE) industries represented more than 9 million jobs and $1,045 billion in U.S. revenue in 2007, according to a new report offering the most detailed analysis yet of the green economy. The renewable energy industry grew three times as fast as the U.S. economy, with the solar thermal, photovoltaic, biodiesel, and ethanol sectors leading the way, each with 25%+ annual revenue growth.


----------



## Wiseacre

Old Rocks said:


> EPA Blames Fracking for Wyoming Groundwater Contamination | StateImpact Pennsylvania
> 
> For the first time, fed*eral envi*ron*men*tal reg*u*la*tors have made a direct link between the con*tro*ver*sial drilling prac*tice known as hydraulic frac*tur*ing and ground*wa*ter contamination.
> 
> The EPA released on Thurs*day its draft inves*ti*ga*tion results on water pol*lu*tion in the Wyoming town of Pavilion.
> 
> This fed*eral find*ing link*ing &#8220;frack*ing&#8221; and ground*wa*ter pol*lu*tion could have wide*spread reper*cus*sions. Sev*eral states, includ*ing New York and Penn*syl*va*nia, are in the midst of cre*at*ing new gas-drilling reg*u*la*tions. Up until this report, indus*try rep*re*sen*ta*tives, along with the head of Pennsylvania&#8217;s Depart*ment of Envi*ron*men*tal Pro*tec*tion, have said no per*sua*sive evi*dence exists link*ing frack*ing directly to prob*lems with water qual*ity. DEP Sec*re*tary Michael Krancer recently tes*ti*fied in Con*gress that the idea that frack*ing pol*lutes ground*wa*ter is &#8220;bogus.&#8221;
> 
> Res*i*dents of Pavil*ion, Wy., began com*plain*ing about drink*ing water that smelled like chem*i*cals back in 2008. Inten*sive drilling for nat*ural gas in the area began in the late 1990&#8217;s and con*tin*ued until 2006. The area now has 169 nat*ural gas wells.
> 
> The draft report says inves*ti*ga*tors have found com*pounds in Pavilion&#8217;s ground*wa*ter asso*ci*ated with frack*ing. The EPA found high con*cen*tra*tions of ben*zene, xylene, gaso*line and diesel fuel in shal*low ground*wa*ter sup*plies that they linked to waste*water pits. But the report also found a num*ber of frack*ing chem*i*cals in much deeper fresh water wells.




About that study - what the EPA doesn't say is that the US Geological Survey has detected organic chemicals in the well water of Pavillion for at least 50 years.

The dangerous compound the EPA found in drinking water wells was 2-butoxyethyl phosphate, which isn't an oil and gas chemical at all, it's a common fire retardant used in association with plastics and plastic components in drinking water wells.

The pollution detected by the EPA and alleged to be linked to fracking was found in deep-water monitoring wells, not the shallower drinking wells.   To the extent that drilling chemicals were found in the deeper monitoring wells, the EPA admits this may result from legacy pits, which are old wellsthat were drilled many years before fracking was used.   The EPA also concedes that the inferior design of Pavillion's old wells allows seepage into the water supply.   Safer well construction of the kind used today might have prevented any contaminents from leaking into the water supply.

The fracking in Pavillion takes place in unusually shallow wells of fewer than 1000-1500 feet deep.   Most fracking today occurs 10,000 feet deep or more, far below normal drinking wells, which typically at 500 feet or less.   Even the EPA acknowledges that Pavillion's drilling is far different from other fracking areas.   So to imply that this study means that fracking everywhere else is dangerous is spurious.

I wouldn't trust the EPA one bit, obviously they and the Obama admin are in thrall to the greenies.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=21431


----------



## Two Thumbs

ABikerSailor said:


> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?



You're believing lies and spreading them.


----------



## NYcarbineer

Then there's the conservative way...

*NY fracking opponents focus efforts on local bans*

ALBANY, N.Y. -- As state environmental regulators finish a review of shale gas drilling in New York, opponents of gas well "fracking" are taking a local approach, enacting zoning and planning laws that ban the practice.

This "home rule" tactic will be a focus of environmental groups in the legislative session that begins Wednesday with Gov. Andrew Cuomo's state-of-the-state address.

Sen. James Seward, an Oneonta Republican, is co-sponsoring *legislation to give local governments veto power over natural gas drilling.* He also wants the Department of Environmental Conservation to address home rule authority in proposed regulations....

NY fracking opponents focus efforts on local bans | SILive.com


----------



## Old Rocks

Wiseacre said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> EPA Blames Fracking for Wyoming Groundwater Contamination | StateImpact Pennsylvania
> 
> For the first time, fed*eral envi*ron*men*tal reg*u*la*tors have made a direct link between the con*tro*ver*sial drilling prac*tice known as hydraulic frac*tur*ing and ground*wa*ter contamination.
> 
> The EPA released on Thurs*day its draft inves*ti*ga*tion results on water pol*lu*tion in the Wyoming town of Pavilion.
> 
> This fed*eral find*ing link*ing frack*ing and ground*wa*ter pol*lu*tion could have wide*spread reper*cus*sions. Sev*eral states, includ*ing New York and Penn*syl*va*nia, are in the midst of cre*at*ing new gas-drilling reg*u*la*tions. Up until this report, indus*try rep*re*sen*ta*tives, along with the head of Pennsylvanias Depart*ment of Envi*ron*men*tal Pro*tec*tion, have said no per*sua*sive evi*dence exists link*ing frack*ing directly to prob*lems with water qual*ity. DEP Sec*re*tary Michael Krancer recently tes*ti*fied in Con*gress that the idea that frack*ing pol*lutes ground*wa*ter is bogus.
> 
> Res*i*dents of Pavil*ion, Wy., began com*plain*ing about drink*ing water that smelled like chem*i*cals back in 2008. Inten*sive drilling for nat*ural gas in the area began in the late 1990s and con*tin*ued until 2006. The area now has 169 nat*ural gas wells.
> 
> The draft report says inves*ti*ga*tors have found com*pounds in Pavilions ground*wa*ter asso*ci*ated with frack*ing. The EPA found high con*cen*tra*tions of ben*zene, xylene, gaso*line and diesel fuel in shal*low ground*wa*ter sup*plies that they linked to waste*water pits. But the report also found a num*ber of frack*ing chem*i*cals in much deeper fresh water wells.[/quote]
> 
> 
> About that study - what the EPA doesn't say is that the US Geological Survey has detected organic chemicals in the well water of Pavillion for at least 50 years.
> 
> The dangerous compound the EPA found in drinking water wells was 2-butoxyethyl phosphate, which isn't an oil and gas chemical at all, it's a common fire retardant used in association with plastics and plastic components in drinking water wells.
> 
> The pollution detected by the EPA and alleged to be linked to fracking was found in deep-water monitoring wells, not the shallower drinking wells.   To the extent that drilling chemicals were found in the deeper monitoring wells, the EPA admits this may result from legacy pits, which are old wellsthat were drilled many years before fracking was used.   The EPA also concedes that the inferior design of Pavillion's old wells allows seepage into the water supply.   Safer well construction of the kind used today might have prevented any contaminents from leaking into the water supply.
> 
> The fracking in Pavillion takes place in unusually shallow wells of fewer than 1000-1500 feet deep.   Most fracking today occurs 10,000 feet deep or more, far below normal drinking wells, which typically at 500 feet or less.   Even the EPA acknowledges that Pavillion's drilling is far different from other fracking areas.   So to imply that this study means that fracking everywhere else is dangerous is spurious.
> 
> I wouldn't trust the EPA one bit, obviously they and the Obama admin are in thrall to the greenies.
> 
> The EPA's Fracking Scare
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? But the chemicals were only detected in 2008? And in both the shallow and deep wells?
Click to expand...


----------



## Old Rocks

Two Thumbs said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're believing lies and spreading them.
Click to expand...


Ohio.


----------



## Mr. H.

Mr. H. said:


> I did read at the link. Very telling.
> But is it damnable to the point of sounding a death knell for fracking nationwide?
> Isn't this what many people want, regardless?





Old Rocks said:


> No, I don't think that it is. But it will be if the industry disregardes the warnings and destroy aquifers. *We can live without the natural gas, we cannot live without the water*.


Roger that. 

I think that state O&G agencies have a decent handle on the issue. There are already a host of regs that dictate fracking practices, fluids containment, and fluids disposal. But with the flurry of activity, we're seeing them revised of late. The sheer volume of newly fractured wells is a bit overwhelming especially in light of state budget cutbacks. DNR offices are swamped. 

Illinois may be positioned as a "next frontier" with respect to unconventional gas and oil (requiring fracturing). There's a huge lease grab going on in a select few counties. Our O&G association has been working with other interested parties in writing legislation and we've recently had a bill pass which will subsequently effect our Oil and Gas regs. 

It's not really an issue of "if the industry disregards the warnings...", it's about gathering facts and acting upon them through legislation that is responsible to all parties. Industry works in concert with regulatory agencies- not against them.


----------



## Wiseacre

Don't think for a minute that the fracking companies are not aware of what's going to happen if it can be proved their operations have contaminated drinking water.   The lawsuits alone would be enormous, and one can assume that EPA inspectors are vigilant indeed in that regard.   As they should be.


----------



## freedombecki

Mr. H. said:


> Re: Gasland...
> 
> "...according to the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, which tested Markham's water in 2008, there were "no indications of oil & gas related impacts to water well." Instead the investigation found that the methane was "biogenic" in nature, meaning it was naturally occurring and that his water well was drilled into a natural gas pocket."
> 
> http://cogcc.state.co.us/library/GASLAND DOC.pdf
> 
> Earthquakes? Likely...
> 
> UK firm says shale fracking caused earthquakes | Reuters
> 
> However, there are over 1 million naturally occuring earthquakes each year.


A million earthquakes per year? Wonder upon what they based their claim, then.


----------



## Mr. H.

freedombecki said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Gasland...
> 
> "...according to the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, which tested Markham's water in 2008, there were "no indications of oil & gas related impacts to water well." Instead the investigation found that the methane was "biogenic" in nature, meaning it was naturally occurring and that his water well was drilled into a natural gas pocket."
> 
> http://cogcc.state.co.us/library/GASLAND DOC.pdf
> 
> Earthquakes? Likely...
> 
> UK firm says shale fracking caused earthquakes | Reuters
> 
> However, there are over 1 million naturally occuring earthquakes each year.
> 
> 
> 
> A million earthquakes per year? Wonder upon what they based their claim, then.
Click to expand...


I stand corrected. That's _several million _per year...

Earthquake Facts and Statistics


----------



## editec

DKC is already building the infrastructure to ship the LPG coming from fracking* OUT of the country.*

*Much of that LPG will be moving out of the nation via SEARPORT MAINE.*


----------



## Mr. H.

editec said:


> DKC is already building the infrastructure to ship the LPG coming from fracking* OUT of the country.*
> 
> *Much of that LPG will be moving out of the nation via SEARPORT MAINE.*



And that's a good thing.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Mr. H. said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> DKC is already building the infrastructure to ship the LPG coming from fracking* OUT of the country.*
> 
> *Much of that LPG will be moving out of the nation via SEARPORT MAINE.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's a good thing.
Click to expand...


Why is that a good thing?  I thought we were supposed to reduce our dependence on foreign energy?


----------



## The Irish Ram

I live in farm country, about  60 miles from Youngstown.  I grew up here and never felt an earthquake until recently.  Now they are becoming frequent.   I had no interest in leasing my land to the gas companies.  One reason was finding out China just bought a third of Chesapeake Gas.   The other is that I already have a gas well, and don't even use it.  And the other is environment.  I live on a large creek that my ducks, dogs, cat, horses, and chickens drink from daily. It flows through the middle of my property.  There are old salt mines right here in my area.  Several people have had to drill several times for well water that has no salt in it, me being one of them. 
Ohio is floating on liquid gas.  Shale is flat thin rock that crumbles easily.  My concern is that if you remove the pressure, the shale will collapse, and the land on top of the shale will fall.  Another  problem is,  all of the farms around me have signed up to allow gas drilling.  I am literally surrounded by leased property now.
If I don't lease my land to them too, they can sit right on my neighbor's border and suck my gas right out from under me.  Even worse they could e-domain me, if I am in their way.
The leasors are offering a shitload of money, that I have already turned down once, but now I am between a thin rock and a hard place.  I'm not sure what to do.  I could sell/lease my property and move all the animals, but I don't want to.  I'll have no choice if they contaminate the creek, but if they ruin the creek then my selling price would plummet.  What a mess.  I really don't know what to do now.


----------



## ABikerSailor

I feel for you Ram, I really do.  Maybe you can do some community organization to get the companies to fully disclose what they are using for fracking liquid?

I know it's been done in other states.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> I really don't know what to do now.



Well, for starters, it is a good thing you aren't in REAL earthquake country, versus "little" earthquake country. Look what happens in real earthquake country when one hits, right? Versus some window rattling?

You have several alternatives to your problem. One would be to buy up the mineral rights yourself to all neighboring properties and prevent an entire block of acreage from being sold, yourself in the middle, and therefore the best protected from depletion of your resource from adjacent properties.

Another would be to just let them drain your resource from adjacent properties and sue and gum up the works when they try and forcibly unitize your land. You could go postal, or you could just lay back and appreciate how these fractured shales are providing the country with inexpensive and abundant energy, warm in the glow of the good you are contributing to society at large?


----------



## RGR

ABikerSailor said:


> I feel for you Ram, I really do.  Maybe you can do some community organization to get the companies to fully disclose what they are using for fracking liquid?
> 
> I know it's been done in other states.



Hell, 20 years ago I would have given him some of the frac fluid on the jobs I was doing to drink. Assuming he can metabolize water of course.


----------



## Mr. H.

ABikerSailor said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> DKC is already building the infrastructure to ship the LPG coming from fracking* OUT of the country.*
> 
> *Much of that LPG will be moving out of the nation via SEARPORT MAINE.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's a good thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why is that a good thing?  I thought we were supposed to reduce our dependence on foreign energy?
Click to expand...


And I thought ethanol was supposed to reduce our dependence of foreign energy.
Yet we're exporting 20% of ethanol production. 
Go figure. 

There's only so much natural gas that you can push to market. At any given time there are massive volumes of nat gas in storage around this country- plenty to meet demand.

Prices are 1/3 what they were just a few years ago and with new discoveries coming online it only makes sense to export it. It creates jobs, economic activity, generates tax revenues, and reduces the trade deficit. 

What's not to like?


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> I live in farm country, about  60 miles from Youngstown.  I grew up here and never felt an earthquake until recently.  Now they are becoming frequent.   I had no interest in leasing my land to the gas companies.  One reason was finding out China just bought a third of Chesapeake Gas.   The other is that I already have a gas well, and don't even use it.  And the other is environment.  I live on a large creek that my ducks, dogs, cat, horses, and chickens drink from daily. It flows through the middle of my property.  There are old salt mines right here in my area.  Several people have had to drill several times for well water that has no salt in it, me being one of them.
> Ohio is floating on liquid gas.  Shale is flat thin rock that crumbles easily.  My concern is that if you remove the pressure, the shale will collapse, and the land on top of the shale will fall.  Another  problem is,  all of the farms around me have signed up to allow gas drilling.  I am literally surrounded by leased property now.
> If I don't lease my land to them too, they can sit right on my neighbor's border and suck my gas right out from under me.  Even worse they could e-domain me, if I am in their way.
> The leasors are offering a shitload of money, that I have already turned down once, but now I am between a thin rock and a hard place.  I'm not sure what to do.  I could sell/lease my property and move all the animals, but I don't want to.  I'll have no choice if they contaminate the creek, but if they ruin the creek then my selling price would plummet.  What a mess.  I really don't know what to do now.



I'm assuming you've been presented with a lease agreement to review. I'd suggest taking it to an attorney familiar with such documents and who is also well versed in minerals law. 

You didn't mention your acreage position (and I'm not asking), but depending on spacing requirements you may be "pooled" with other landowners in which case you'd be sharing revenues on a percentage basis. Your property could be worth much more than just the acres you occupy. Hope that makes sense. 

Good luck.


----------



## KissMy

The Irish Ram said:


> I live in farm country, about  60 miles from Youngstown.  I grew up here and never felt an earthquake until recently.  Now they are becoming frequent.   I had no interest in leasing my land to the gas companies.  One reason was finding out China just bought a third of Chesapeake Gas.   The other is that I already have a gas well, and don't even use it.  And the other is environment.  I live on a large creek that my ducks, dogs, cat, horses, and chickens drink from daily. It flows through the middle of my property.  There are old salt mines right here in my area.  Several people have had to drill several times for well water that has no salt in it, me being one of them.
> Ohio is floating on liquid gas.  Shale is flat thin rock that crumbles easily.  My concern is that if you remove the pressure, the shale will collapse, and the land on top of the shale will fall.  Another  problem is,  all of the farms around me have signed up to allow gas drilling.  I am literally surrounded by leased property now.
> If I don't lease my land to them too, they can sit right on my neighbor's border and suck my gas right out from under me.  Even worse they could e-domain me, if I am in their way.
> The leasors are offering a shitload of money, that I have already turned down once, but now I am between a thin rock and a hard place.  I'm not sure what to do.  I could sell/lease my property and move all the animals, but I don't want to.  I'll have no choice if they contaminate the creek, but if they ruin the creek then my selling price would plummet.  What a mess.  I really don't know what to do now.



Have them pay for a water test & get a copy of it, or get one done from the county/state. Make sure your agreement with the gas & drilling company states that if contamination levels rise, they must supply your farm with all the clean water you need for you & the animals. Make sure this supplied water agreement is transferable to future owners of said property. Get the best price you can & take the money before they steal the gas from you. Good Luck.


----------



## The Irish Ram

KissMy said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in farm country, about  60 miles from Youngstown.  I grew up here and never felt an earthquake until recently.  Now they are becoming frequent.   I had no interest in leasing my land to the gas companies.  One reason was finding out China just bought a third of Chesapeake Gas.   The other is that I already have a gas well, and don't even use it.  And the other is environment.  I live on a large creek that my ducks, dogs, cat, horses, and chickens drink from daily. It flows through the middle of my property.  There are old salt mines right here in my area.  Several people have had to drill several times for well water that has no salt in it, me being one of them.
> Ohio is floating on liquid gas.  Shale is flat thin rock that crumbles easily.  My concern is that if you remove the pressure, the shale will collapse, and the land on top of the shale will fall.  Another  problem is,  all of the farms around me have signed up to allow gas drilling.  I am literally surrounded by leased property now.
> If I don't lease my land to them too, they can sit right on my neighbor's border and suck my gas right out from under me.  Even worse they could e-domain me, if I am in their way.
> The leasors are offering a shitload of money, that I have already turned down once, but now I am between a thin rock and a hard place.  I'm not sure what to do.  I could sell/lease my property and move all the animals, but I don't want to.  I'll have no choice if they contaminate the creek, but if they ruin the creek then my selling price would plummet.  What a mess.  I really don't know what to do now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have them pay for a water test & get a copy of it, or get one done from the county/state. Make sure your agreement with the gas & drilling company states that if contamination levels rise, they must supply your farm with all the clean water you need for you & the animals. Make sure this supplied water agreement is transferable to future owners of said property. Get the best price you can & take the money before they steal the gas from you. Good Luck.
Click to expand...

Locally there are 2 groups of lawyers that have merged to either go after, or to sign you up with, the gas companies that are pouring in.  I planned on using an attorney, and will go ahead and let them horizontal drill I think, but they will have to encase both wells and pay for testing of the well water, and the creek water.  They have to do that on a regular basis because we need to know if there is a problem before our animals drop dead.  I so don't want to move.  It's animal heaven here, and I love it.  In the middle of the woods on the creek. aahhh.


----------



## editec

Fracker are going to wreck this nation's water tables, sell the excess petroeum and gas offshore, pocket the profits, invest them offshore, and leave the American people with the cost of cleanup.

Count on_ that._


----------



## Mr. H.

editec said:


> Fracker are going to wreck this nation's water tables, sell the excess petroeum and gas offshore, pocket the profits, invest them offshore, and leave the American people with the cost of cleanup.
> 
> Count on_ that._



That's quite a combination of preposterous assumptions. 

However, you have just described the agriculture industry. LOL


----------



## editec

Mr. H. said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> DKC is already building the infrastructure to ship the LPG coming from fracking* OUT of the country.*
> 
> *Much of that LPG will be moving out of the nation via SEARPORT MAINE.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's a good thing.
Click to expand...

 
Agreed. 

That's going to be a very good thing for those companies who make money selling it.

For the homeowners in Searsport, of course, this project is tragic.

Well to be fair, pretty much everybody in the Penobscot Bay region will be negatively affected by the project if it goes though, but the people whose real estate is closest to the BIG TANK and pumping facility will be most negatively affected.

And I wouldnt actually even mind that, if those cheapskte fucking trillionaires would pay us for the lost value of our homes and lifestyles.

But that they won't do unless they are forced to do so.

Not much chance of that, I expect.


----------



## KissMy

The Irish Ram said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in farm country, about  60 miles from Youngstown.  I grew up here and never felt an earthquake until recently.  Now they are becoming frequent.   I had no interest in leasing my land to the gas companies.  One reason was finding out China just bought a third of Chesapeake Gas.   The other is that I already have a gas well, and don't even use it.  And the other is environment.  I live on a large creek that my ducks, dogs, cat, horses, and chickens drink from daily. It flows through the middle of my property.  There are old salt mines right here in my area.  Several people have had to drill several times for well water that has no salt in it, me being one of them.
> Ohio is floating on liquid gas.  Shale is flat thin rock that crumbles easily.  My concern is that if you remove the pressure, the shale will collapse, and the land on top of the shale will fall.  Another  problem is,  all of the farms around me have signed up to allow gas drilling.  I am literally surrounded by leased property now.
> If I don't lease my land to them too, they can sit right on my neighbor's border and suck my gas right out from under me.  Even worse they could e-domain me, if I am in their way.
> The leasors are offering a shitload of money, that I have already turned down once, but now I am between a thin rock and a hard place.  I'm not sure what to do.  I could sell/lease my property and move all the animals, but I don't want to.  I'll have no choice if they contaminate the creek, but if they ruin the creek then my selling price would plummet.  What a mess.  I really don't know what to do now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have them pay for a water test & get a copy of it, or get one done from the county/state. Make sure your agreement with the gas & drilling company states that if contamination levels rise, they must supply your farm with all the clean water you need for you & the animals. Make sure this supplied water agreement is transferable to future owners of said property. Get the best price you can & take the money before they steal the gas from you. Good Luck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Locally there are 2 groups of lawyers that have merged to either go after, or to sign you up with, the gas companies that are pouring in.  I planned on using an attorney, and will go ahead and let them horizontal drill I think, but they will have to encase both wells and pay for testing of the well water, and the creek water.  They have to do that on a regular basis because we need to know if there is a problem before our animals drop dead.  I so don't want to move.  It's animal heaven here, and I love it.  In the middle of the woods on the creek. aahhh.
Click to expand...


Yeah - it will cost them plenty to supply clean water to all the animals on your property. Make sure the language in the contract does not say you have to prove that the degraded water quality was due to their fracking. That is where they screw a lot of people. Just say if the quality degrades for any reason.


----------



## CF1189

In 2007, major Natural Gas conglomerates began hydrofracking in the Marcellus Shale on the Appalachian Basin. Natural Gas prices were at $ 6-8 at the time. 

They bought up land based on valued of natural gas sales expected. When the gas was ultimately pulled from the ground, the prices began to plummet. There was not adequate demand for Natural Gas and the fracking method created a Glut. 

Companies recognized that the Marcellus was devoid Liquid Natural Gas (LNG), the Transportation Gas. Its the one that is still highly demanded globally, as 17 countries import the product. 

The places in this country it can be found? Most specifically, Texas and also Colorado has rich LNG deposits. However, the Marcellus is a Dead Area.


----------



## TShepstone

Gasland is one big continuous lie - starting with his claim of getting a $100,000 offer.  Just not true.


----------



## TShepstone

Hydraulic fracturing has never polluted a water supply.  What more needs to be said?


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Eagle Ford Activity Generates over $25B in Economic Output in South Tx.

Fracturing... not just a fractured fairy tale. 

_Eagle Ford shale activity in 2011 alone generated over $25 billion in economic output, supported over 47,000 full-time jobs and provided $257 million in local government revenue, according to a new study by the Center for Community and Business Research, part of the University of Texas at San Antonio's Institute for Economic Development.

The findings are the result of research into the economic impact of Eagle Ford shale activity in 2011 on a 20-county region in South Texas.

The study found that:
 Eagle Ford development resulted in $3.1 billion in salaries and benefits to workers
Provided more than $12.6 billion in gross regional product
Added more than $358 million in state revenues, including $120.4 million in severance taxes
Generated a triple-digit sales tax revenue increase in local counties._


----------



## RGR

editec said:


> Fracker are going to wreck this nation's water tables, sell the excess petroeum and gas offshore, pocket the profits, invest them offshore, and leave the American people with the cost of cleanup.
> 
> Count on_ that._



So...they have been fraccing since the late 40's and......people are just now noticing these bad things? Or did these bad things not even happen until the recent outbreak of fraccing hysteria happened (can't have more natural gas being developed...quick! what excuses can we come up with next to make it a bad thing!!)?


----------



## RGR

TShepstone said:


> Hydraulic fracturing has never polluted a water supply.  What more needs to be said?



Well, that would depend on whether or not someone is paying you to claim this type of information on web forums or not?


----------



## ABikerSailor

RGR said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracker are going to wreck this nation's water tables, sell the excess petroeum and gas offshore, pocket the profits, invest them offshore, and leave the American people with the cost of cleanup.
> 
> Count on_ that._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...they have been fraccing since the late 40's and......people are just now noticing these bad things? Or did these bad things not even happen until the recent outbreak of fraccing hysteria happened (can't have more natural gas being developed...quick! what excuses can we come up with next to make it a bad thing!!)?
Click to expand...


When they were fracking in the 40's and 50's, they were using WATER ONLY to do the work.  It was later when the oil companies came up with their various formulas to get more gas out of the well that things started to go south.  Many of the fracking formulas today use stuff like benzene and other chemicals that stay in the rock, thereby staying in the water table as well.

If they go back to using water only, go ahead, drill baby drill.  But you've got to get them to disclose what they are pumping into the ground (many won't, claiming that their formulas are secret), and if there are toxins in it, they've gotta stop.

People living around fracking areas are experiencing flaming water, and on occasion, mild earthquakes due to the drilling.


----------



## RGR

ABikerSailor said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracker are going to wreck this nation's water tables, sell the excess petroeum and gas offshore, pocket the profits, invest them offshore, and leave the American people with the cost of cleanup.
> 
> Count on_ that._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...they have been fraccing since the late 40's and......people are just now noticing these bad things? Or did these bad things not even happen until the recent outbreak of fraccing hysteria happened (can't have more natural gas being developed...quick! what excuses can we come up with next to make it a bad thing!!)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When they were fracking in the 40's and 50's, they were using WATER ONLY to do the work.
Click to expand...


They weren't using any more water than I was when doing frac jobs in the mid 90's. And X-link gels were being used WAY before that. Like I said, this stuff has been around a long time, seems kind of silly to get everyone worked up now after it has been safely deployed for half a century.



			
				ABikerSailor said:
			
		

> Many of the fracking formulas today use stuff like benzene and other chemicals that stay in the rock, thereby staying in the water table as well.



For starters, get it through your head that the formation being fracked isn't the water table. And the procedure which immediately follows the frac is called a "flowback". Want to guess what that means?



			
				ABikerSailor said:
			
		

> If they go back to using water only, go ahead, drill baby drill.  But you've got to get them to disclose what they are pumping into the ground (many won't, claiming that their formulas are secret), and if there are toxins in it, they've gotta stop.



Why? Those formulas have been around for that same half century, and how many people have died from drinking water polluted by fracking in that time? Could the answer be...none?



			
				ABikerSailor said:
			
		

> People living around fracking areas are experiencing flaming water, and on occasion, mild earthquakes due to the drilling.



Oh please, now we are bringing in the garland nonsense? Go read up on a topic some more, once you learn how hydraulic fracturing CAN pollute a freshwater aquifer, you will also learn why it doesn't happen, or if it does, it is spotted and can be fixed on the spot.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Why is it that the gas companies won't disclose their fracking fluids?

I'll tell ya why, it's because their fluids are dangerous and toxic.


----------



## RGR

ABikerSailor said:


> Why is it that the gas companies won't disclose their fracking fluids?



For the same reason you don't pay more taxes than is required of you...BECAUSE IT ISN'T REQUIRED OF YOU. If it was required, they would do it. It isn't. 



			
				ABikerSailor said:
			
		

> I'll tell ya why, it's because their fluids are dangerous and toxic.



And you should pay taxes which aren't required of you because obviously you are a tax cheat.


----------



## ABikerSailor

RGR said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it that the gas companies won't disclose their fracking fluids?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the same reason you don't pay more taxes than is required of you...BECAUSE IT ISN'T REQUIRED OF YOU. If it was required, they would do it. It isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll tell ya why, it's because their fluids are dangerous and toxic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you should pay taxes which aren't required of you because obviously you are a tax cheat.
Click to expand...


There are several states where laws are currently being passed to force them to disclose their formulas to the government to determine if they are toxic or not.  Colorado is one.


----------



## Staidhup

It's very apparent several on this page have no concept of geology, water tables, aquifers, and most importantly fracking. The DEQ in Pennsylvania and North Dakota and other states have a little better understanding as to what is used, pollution issues and controls, furthermore the monitoring of proprietary elements involved. Unless you are willing to do some independent research, read unbiased assessments, you are doomed to be nothing more than an uneducated pawn in the environmental game. Simply unbelievable how ignorant people can be, a real testament to how this country got so financially screwed up.


----------



## Mr. H.

I'm pretty sure that in the old days they used diesel fuel in frac jobs. 
Regarding the ingredients, or "recipies", here's a simple breakdown. (image)

Companies spend many millions of dollars developing frac compounds and formulas which are tailor-made depending on the application. My guess is that they are trademarked.


----------



## ekrem

Mr. H. said:


> *U.S. Shale Boom Reduces Russian Influence Over European Gas Market*



The article doesn't represent the reality.
How much gas ships the USA to Europe?

Russia is an energy-superpower and has plenty of convential ressources.
Do you really think, that gas shipped (LNG) over the Atlantic will be cheaper than the gas coming from existing pipelines which supply Europe?


----------



## Mr. H.

I dunno. Ask Rice University&#8217;s Baker Institute.


----------



## starcraftzzz

--------------------Fracking

Natural Gas Is A Bridge To Nowhere Absent A Carbon Price AND Strong Standards To Reduce Methane Leakage | ThinkProgress
^Another study finds that Natural gas is no cleaner then coal

http://nordhaus.econ.yale.edu/documents/EnvAccount_MMN_AER0811.pdf
^Study finds that Fracking costs more than the net benefit it creates
\
Ohio Earthquake Linked To Fracking Injection Wells | ThinkProgress
^4.0 earthquake in Ohio caused by fracking

USGS Report: Link Between Fracking and Oklahoma Earthquakes | Crooks and Liars
^Fracking responsible for earthquakes/
^Fracking linked to Oklahomas historic 5.6 earthquake.
^Fracking responsible for around 50 earthquakes in Oklahoma alone during a year.

Wall Street Journal Spins Fracking Study To Downplay Risks | Media Matters for America
^A Duke University study found that 81% water wells near Fracking sites were contaminated with ethane, compared to 9% that are not near Fracking sites
^Also methane concentrations were 17 times higher in wells near Fracking sites.

BBC News - Shale gas drilling 'contaminates drinking water'
^ Shale gas drilling contaminates drinking water.

Maryland To Sue Chesapeake Energy For PA Fracking Blowout | ThinkProgress
^Maryland set to sue Chesapeake Energy for PA fracking blowout; which ended up contaminating water drinking supplies.

Daily Kos: Natural Gas, How Clean is it? A Bad News, more Bad News Story
^It is true that Natural Gas emits less Carbon into the atmosphere; however it emits more methane into the atmosphere
^Also to mine natural gas fracking techniques must be used. 

Daily Kos: "Massive" Fracking Blowout spill in PA. (Updated)
^Fracking spill occurs

Congressional report: 29 human carcinogens found in hydraulic fracturing fluids | The Washington Independent
^29 Chemicals used in Fracking are known to cause cancer.

REPORT: Seven States Where Republicans Are Ruining The Environment | ThinkProgress
^Water tests in fracking have discovered that due to fracking drinking and other water supplies now contain unhealthy levels of radon, mercury, sulfates, carbonates and nitrates.
^Fracking also has been known to cause small earthquakes.


Daily Kos: Fracked Water Not Fit to Drink
^The 71,000 fracking gas wells in Penn. has resulted in 1.3 billion gallons of highly polluted water to be produced over 3 years.
^In Texas areas that saw around a 40% increase in natural gas wells has resulted in children having around 4 times the risk to have asthma.

Natural gas from shale worse for global warming than coal, Cornell study says | PennLive.com
^Fracking/shale is worse than coal

REPORT: Will Natural Gas Fuel America in the 21st Century?
^Fracking/shale worse than coal

-------------------------Fracking


----------



## Mr. H.

Your head's so far up your ass I'm surprised you can see to post that worthless shit.


----------



## starcraftzzz

Mr. H. said:


> Your head's so far up your ass I'm surprised you can see to post that worthless shit.



Odd how you think being in touch with reality means ones heads up their ass.
Plz come back when you response is something other then "the truth head up ass me dumbass"


----------



## chikenwing

starcraftzzz said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your head's so far up your ass I'm surprised you can see to post that worthless shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Odd how you think being in touch with reality means ones heads up their ass.
> Plz come back when you response is something other then "the truth head up ass me dumbass"
Click to expand...


Well everyone of your examples have been proven false,using real science from real scientists.Being misinformed isn't a crime,do look into what really goes on.


----------



## Mr. H.

*REVIEW OF U.S. EPAs December 2011 Draft Report:
Investigation of Ground Water Contamination near Pavillion, Wyoming*

The review, conducted by S.S. Papadopulos & Associates (SSP&A) found that the data and analysis does not support the EPAs conclusions, including the agencys primary claim of contamination caused by hydraulic fracturing activity.

The report pointed out six major flaws in EPAs methodology: 1) Poor Study Design; 2) Lack of Baseline and Background Data; 3) Analytical Concerns Leading to Incorrect Conclusions; 4) Serious Errors in the Construction, Development, and Sampling of Monitoring Wells; 5) Lack of Suitable Samples; and 6) No Secure Identification.


----------



## bobgnote

*Gosh, fracking must not use toluene and benzene, to pollute wells, from the get-go.

None of that gas gets into water tables, and you can't light tapwater on fire.

Of course, it helps to ignore the truth, if you are a Log Cabin Club queen of the night, out stepping, in your redstate finery, with your head way up your asshole.

Queers don't care, if chromosomes get broken or CO2 goes off the charts, since Cabin-boys don't breed, except for reactors, do you, assholes.*


----------



## bobgnote

Mr. H. said:


> *REVIEW OF U.S. EPAs December 2011 Draft Report:
> Investigation of Ground Water Contamination near Pavillion, Wyoming*
> 
> The review, conducted by S.S. Papadopulos & Associates (SSP&A) found that the data and analysis does not support the EPAs conclusions, including the agencys primary claim of contamination caused by hydraulic fracturing activity.
> 
> The report pointed out six major flaws in EPAs methodology: 1) Poor Study Design; 2) Lack of Baseline and Background Data; 3) Analytical Concerns Leading to Incorrect Conclusions; 4) Serious Errors in the Construction, Development, and Sampling of Monitoring Wells; 5) Lack of Suitable Samples; and 6) No Secure Identification.



"2.1.1 Methane
During Phases I and II, EPA did demonstrate that methane was present in wells situated
over a broad area centered on the Wind River-Fort Union structural high (Mueller, 1989) and the
Pavillion gas field (Figure 2). In reality, several hypotheses for the presence of methane in the
water supply wells arise from these associations:
&#61623; The structural high is an area that has naturally occurring methane in Wind River
formation water-bearing sandstone lenses; and/or
&#61623; Methane is entrained in fluids leaked historically from pits or other structures at gas
drilling and production locations; and/or
&#61623; Methane in the Wind River aquifer reflects enhanced migration associated with gas well
drilling and construction activities (including hydraulic fracturing).
None of these scenarios is adequately addressed in the Draft Report, however."

---------------------

Natural gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Natural gas is a naturally occurring hydrocarbon gas mixture consisting primarily of methane, with up to 20 %[1] of other hydrocarbons as well as impurities in varying amounts such as carbon dioxide.

*And what is methane doing in the water, if fracking doesn't put it there?  The hypothesis of your anal-retards who made this Greek-named report is methane naturally occurs, which is why somebody wants to do the fracking, which is what puts the methane, from the NG, into the water table, you fucking anal bitch of a Cabin boy!*


----------



## Mr. H.

That's MR fucking anal bitch of a Cabin boy to you, pal.


----------



## bobgnote

*Eat shit on your poodadoopalous-report and die, Mister Cabin-boy punkass.*


----------



## Mr. H.

That's MISTER Mister Cabin-boy punkass to you, pal.


----------



## bobgnote

What Chemicals Are Used | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry

As previously noted, chemicals perform many functions in a hydraulic fracturing job.  Although there are dozens to hundreds of chemicals which could be used as additives, there are a limited number which are routinely used in hydraulic fracturing.  The following is a list of the chemicals used most often.  This chart is sorted alphabetically by the Product Function to make it easier for you to compare to the fracturing records.

(shitloads of chemicals to follow, see website, add toluene and benzene)


----------



## Mr. H.

Credit to healthmyths for finding this one...

How to Reduce Carbon Emissions: Drill, or Frack Baby, Frack - Forbes


----------



## Speaker

RGR said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Small earthquake...sure....no different than a train passing by really. And no,a frac doesn't make flammable water. Less propaganda....more actual thinking please...
Click to expand...



you are truly not smart. If fracking is all good, then you should drink that water every day. keep us posted on you're cancer is. Alright? bye bye now.  

PS (when you voice you're opinons, people read them and could start thinking like you do. this is a problem, because the things you say are not true.)  stop telling lies


----------



## bobgnote

_Only a complete dumbshit would think moving from one source of sequestered carbon to another source of sequestered carbon means "How to reduce carbon emissions."

HEY.  You need CO2-neutral biomass, to engage in cyclic carbon media.  

Why don't you run for boss of the *Idiocracy*?  Duh, we dun voted, for si-yunce:_


----------



## RGR

Speaker said:


> If fracking is all good, then you should drink that water every day. keep us posted on you're cancer is. Alright? bye bye now.



I certainly never said all fracking is good. And the water used to do it is...water.....last I looked, water was listed as a carcinogen. Now, the flowback water is a different matter, and fortunately, there are Class II injection wells to handle that.



			
				Speaker said:
			
		

> PS (when you voice you're opinons, people read them and could start thinking like you do. this is a problem, because the things you say are not true.)  stop telling lies



Your ignorance of reality does not transform any factual statement I have make into a lie. Ever.


----------



## bobgnote

RGR said:


> Speaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If fracking is all good, then you should drink that water every day. keep us posted on you're cancer is. Alright? bye bye now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly never said all fracking is good. And the water used to do it is...water.....last I looked, water was listed as a carcinogen. Now, the flowback water is a different matter, and fortunately, there are Class II injection wells to handle that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS (when you voice you're opinons, people read them and could start thinking like you do. this is a problem, because the things you say are not true.)  stop telling lies
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your ignorance of reality does not transform any factual statement I have make into a lie. Ever.
Click to expand...


_Is ANY fracking good?  NO.  Fracking involves injection of chemicals and water, into fractured rock, to release natural gas.  But fracking involves the injection, of a number of poisons, into the wells, which don't go as planned, and there are a lot of them.

One recurrent problem is the sleeves used to line the well fracture, letting chemical-laced water get forced, at high pressure, by the escaping gas, into any old nearby area, including into water tables, hence poisonous, flammable tap-water.

The problem of fractured sleeves isn't easy to solve, while the use of benzene and toluene and methanol and more is insane.  Why would anyone want chromosome-breaking chemicals, in their water table?

If the water catches fire, hey!  The procedure didn't work!  It's just an excuse, to fail to catch up, with Henry Ford, who made hemp-ethanol and indestructible plastic, but also, switchgrass and algae can be resourced and processed, with ultrasound.

When you are in a hurry, to poison everybody, just so you can delay technology, which Henry Ford knew and used, all the way back, to the Model-fuckiing-T, you are deflecting, in a way, which suggests you are a dangerous, psychotic sociopath.

"Fracking," yeah, right.  FUCKING UP BIG-TIME is what that shitload is._


----------



## uscitizen

Mr. H. said:


> I could have buried this in one of the many existing threads on Fracking, but it deserves it's own look.
> 
> The article touches on the effects of increased U.S. natural gas production in far-flung parts of the world including the Middle East, China, Russia, Venezuela, etc.
> 
> *U.S. Shale Boom Reduces Russian Influence Over European Gas Market*
> 
> _The U.S. shale gas boom has not only virtually eliminated the need for U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports for at least two decades, but significantly reduced Russias influence over the European natural gas market and "diminished the petro-power" of major gas producers in the Middle East and Venezuela._
> 
> *And here's the kicker*- Obama's proposed tax policies are directed at bringing the American oil and natural gas industries to it's knees:
> 
> _Changes to U.S. tax policy for upstream oil and gas, including proposed changes to expensing rules, investment credits, and/or royalty rates, could also make shale exploration and production unprofitable at current prices._



Well duhhh!
Supply and demand actually works with natural gas since it is not easially exportable.
Yep a natural gas boom and a warm winter has dropped natgas prices dramatically.
So yes it may not be profitable at CURRENT prices.


----------



## Mr. H.

Lawmakers urge Obama admin to OK natural gas exports - Yahoo! News

_The U.S. natural gas revolution, spurred by wide development of hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, directional drilling and other technologies, has brought with it a push to build export terminals to send the fuel to markets in Asia and Europe where prices for gas are far higher._

Reduce the trade deficit, create jobs, increase the GDP. Win/Win/Win.


----------



## Mr. H.

AP IMPACT: CO2 emissions in US drop to 20-year low - Yahoo! News

PITTSBURGH (AP) &#8212;_ In a surprising turnaround, the amount of carbon dioxide being released into the atmosphere in the U.S. has fallen dramatically to its lowest level in 20 years, and government officials say the biggest reason is that cheap and plentiful natural gas has led many power plant operators to switch from dirtier-burning coal._

Hmmm... NOT from increased windmills and solar plants etc, but natural gas!
Whodathunkit.


----------



## waltky

Pa. got lotsa gas...

*Pennsylvania gas boom under way*
_Aug. 22 (UPI) -- Natural gas production from the Marcellus shale play in Pennsylvania is up more than 80 percent from 2011, the state government said._


> A Platts review of information from the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection said natural gas production in the Marcellus shale play for the first six months of 2012 increased 82 percent compared with the same time last year.
> 
> Production reached 4.36 billion cubic feet per day for the first half of 2012, while operators reported 2.5 billion cubic feet per day during the same time last year.  Chesapeake Energy accounted for roughly one-quarter of the unconventional natural gas production in the state during the first six months.
> 
> The U.S. Energy Department's Energy Information Administration reports that Texas led the country in natural gas gains because of developments in the Barnett and Haynesville-Bossier shale formation. Louisiana was close behind with its Haynesville play while Pennsylvania saw gains from the Marcellus shale formation.  U.S. proven natural gas reserves totaled 317.6 trillion cubic feet in 2010.  Platts reported that not all companies delivered information to the DEP.
> 
> Source


----------



## Mr. H.

I spent 3 hours in a meeting today discussing a 54 page bill that recently came out of Springfield. I should say it was originally a 120 page bill- but lenghty  negotiations brought it within a few light years of reality. Still, it presents itself as an answer looking for a problem. 

The mere potential of Illinois becoming fertile ground for liquids production via high-volume hydraulic fracturing has brought the enviro-whores out of the woodwork. Well oiled and well funded they coaxed fellow liberal legislators in Springfield to throw everything but the kitchen sink at industry. 

It's a fucking nightmare. Mike Madigan is insane.


----------



## Mr. H.

How many Liberals here have actually drilled a hole in the ground.

Pony up you bastards. Face up. Buck up. 

Bunch of sorry sanctimonious cock wannabies. 

All reward and no risk. That's your mantra. 

Pull up to the pump?

Pull up to the kelly. Swing some chain. Stab the rathole. 

You make me puke, you stay-at-home whores. Fuck you.


----------



## Mr. H.

Damn, I must have been on a hell of a drunk when I posted that LOL.


Anyhow...

5 million jobs added by 2020 spurred by falling natural gas prices. Abundant, cheap natural gas- brought  to you by hydraulic fracturing...

Export surge could help U.S. add 5 million jobs by 2020: study - Yahoo! Finance

BOSTON (Reuters) - _Rising U.S. factory productivity, spurred by falling natural gas prices, could help the nation boost exports of products such as locomotives and factory machinery and add as many as 5 million manufacturing and support jobs by the decade's end, a new analysis found._


----------



## RGR

bobgnote said:


> One recurrent problem is the sleeves used to line the well fracture, letting chemical-laced water get forced, at high pressure, by the escaping gas, into any old nearby area, including into water tables, hence poisonous, flammable tap-water.



Incorrect. 



			
				bobgnote said:
			
		

> The problem of fractured sleeves isn't easy to solve, while the use of benzene and toluene and methanol and more is insane.  Why would anyone want chromosome-breaking chemicals, in their water table?



They wouldn't. And because you assume benzene and touluene are normal injection chemicals, when they aren't, and that they are pumped into water tables by fracking, which they aren't unless the well design has somehow failed, you look silly.

I recommend less weed, more learning.



			
				bobgnote said:
			
		

> When you are in a hurry, to poison everybody, just so you can delay technology, which Henry Ford knew and used, all the way back, to the Model-fuckiing-T, you are deflecting, in a way, which suggests you are a dangerous, psychotic sociopath.
> 
> "Fracking," yeah, right.  FUCKING UP BIG-TIME is what that shitload is.[/I]



Want to bet that you have used the products derived from fracking, sometime during your average day. Why don't you start a petition to ban the use of all products related to the use of natural gas obtained by hydraulic stimulation, see where it gets you.


----------



## Mr. H.

*Shale Gas: An American Success Story *

RIGZONE - Shale Gas: An American Success Story

_In Pennsylvania, Marcellus Shale development generated $11 billion in value-added economic impact in 2010, while supporting 140,000 jobs and contributing $1 billion in state and local tax revenue, he said. Nationwide, shale gas development is expected to support 1.5 million jobs, and contribute nearly $200 billion to GDP by 2015. Those benefits are expected to double by 2035._

More oil, more gas, more jobs... for America.


----------



## Noah_raffi

exactly


----------



## Mr. H.

In North Dakota, hard to tell an oil millionaire from regular Joe - Yahoo! News

_Average income in Mountrail County, the hub of the North Dakota oil production boom, roughly doubled in five years to $52,027 per person in 2010, ranking it in the richest 100 U.S. counties on that basis including New York City, and Marin, California.

The boom could be creating up to 2,000 millionaires a year in North Dakota, said Bruce Gjovig, founder of the Center for Innovation at the University of North Dakota._


----------



## KissMy

Someone on TV today said we are now producing 85% of the oil we use here in the USA. I think he was wacked & I could not find confirmation online. Last year it was 55%.


----------



## Mr. H.

KissMy said:


> Someone on TV today said we are now producing 85% of the oil we use here in the USA. I think he was wacked & I could not find confirmation online. Last year it was 55%.


That is perplexing.


----------



## KissMy

Mr. H. said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone on TV today said we are now producing 85% of the oil we use here in the USA. I think he was wacked & I could not find confirmation online. Last year it was 55%.
> 
> 
> 
> That is perplexing.
Click to expand...


I think it was on Bloomberg "Lunch Money" but not for sure as I was surfing between them CNBC & Fox Business.


----------



## Mr. H.

It may have been 85% of refined product. That w/make more sense.


----------



## Mr. H.

_...the shale revolution has transformed America's petroleum industry into an engine for hydrocarbon production growth. With that additional oil and gas production, America's dependence on petroleum imports has declined. Increasingly, not only are the politicians talking about energy independence, but energy industry executives along with energy economists and consultants are also openly talking about the day when the U.S. meets all its power needs from domestic resources._

RIGZONE - Musings: Is America Knocking On The Door Of Energy Independence?


----------



## Mr. H.

Training and jobs for new college grads. 

_Over 700 graduates have passed through BHP Billiton's Two-Year Foundations for Graduates Program since its inception five years ago. This program provides training for graduates working through BHP Billiton's business divisions, including petroleum, mining, and minerals.

Approximately 100 of the graduates in the program work in the company's petroleum division, but that number is expected to increase as BHP Billiton Petroleum seeks to expand its oil and gas workforce, David Nelson, vice president of human resources, told Rigzone in a recent interview._

RIGZONE - U.S. Shale Operations Drive BHP Graduate Hiring Plans


----------



## Mr. H.

Bless the men and women of this incredible industry for taking the risk and employing the people to get done a job that Obama is doing his damndest to prevent. 

US May Soon Become World's Top Oil Producer - ABC News

_U.S. oil output is surging so fast that the United States could soon overtake Saudi Arabia as the world's biggest producer.

Driven by high prices and new drilling methods, U.S. production of crude and other liquid hydrocarbons is on track to rise 7 percent this year to an average of 10.9 million barrels per day. This will be the fourth straight year of crude increases and the biggest single-year gain since 1951._


----------



## Katzndogz

All we need is a new president to make it happen.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> US May Soon Become World's Top Oil Producer - ABC News



The title should be modified for those who may have forgotten...

"US May Soon Become World's Top Oil Producer...AGAIN"


----------



## Mr. H.

The Pres will crow about this one, just wait. 
He'll pat himself on the back while licking his chops at the $40+ billion planned taxes aimed at oil and gas.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Romney's midterm election in 2014 will see gas prices cut in half, unemployment drop 2 points; his reelection in 2016 will have cars running on natural gas, 4% unemployment and Democrats will hold 6 to 10 Senate seats.


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Eagle Ford Jobs to Grow, Evolve As Play Enters Production Phase

_Eagle Ford shale activity will continue to drive job creation in South Texas through 2021, with the level of experience required and types of labor demand evolving as Eagle Ford activity shifts from exploration to production, according to a recent analysis by the Institute for Economic Development at the University of Texas at San Antonio (UTSA).

In 2011, Eagle Ford shale activity supported 38,000 jobs in 14 actively producing oil and gas counties in the Eagle Ford, mainly in the construction and extraction and office support job sectors but also in the transportation, service, business management and professional occupations, UTSA reported in its report released this month analyzing the future job growth associated with the Eagle Ford._


----------



## Mr. H.

I'm rather proud of this one.
Wrote the script and assisted in directing and production... 


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbMAp6vYh5s]frac - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Grandma

Does anyone have a breakdown on how many jobs and in what positions are created per well?


----------



## Mr. H.

Per well? 
What would be the significance of such a statistic?


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Per well?
> What would be the significance of such a statistic?



You could multiply the number of wells drilled in a given year and assign a job growth number as a natural consequence?


----------



## Mr. H.

It's a stat that's probably out there. 

The Illinois Chamber of Commerce is working on an economic impact study regarding hydraulic fracturing's potential within our state. Saw a presentation last night.  I should have taken notes, but I seem to remember 47 jobs/well drilled. Those are direct and indirect jobs btw.


----------



## Grandma

I keep hearing "It'll create _jobs!_", but no one says how many, or how long they'll last. Now if a large number of jobs are created, if enough employee wages can be earned to offset the potential damages the wells cause, then it's not quite so bad. However, I've seen the "jobs" carrot dangled before desperate poor communities before with very unfavorable results - few jobs, low pay, and regular environmental problems, most resulting in injury or death.


----------



## Mr. H.

Puhleez.


----------



## Mr. H.

Jack Welch: NatGas Could Be Bigger Than the Internet - Yahoo! Finance

_"We have a chance in this country to make this the American century," Welch said. "This gas thing is huge. The gas that we have found is in the first inning - it's like the Internet in 1990. This is the first inning of the great American century."_


----------



## Mr. H.

Didn't Al Gore invent hydraulic fracturing?


----------



## Katzndogz

Fracking will be an answer until coal is thoroughly ended.  Then liberals will start dismantling fracking.


----------



## Mr. H.

Illinois may be poised on the threshold of a fracturing boom ala ND. But then it may amount to nothing. 

No matter, the environmental contingent is in Springfield clambering for either an outright statewide ban or a bill that severely limits the practice. Drilling companies have already threatened to pull up stakes.

We contend that existing state regulations regarding drilling/completion/containment are sufficient. 
Here- read for yourself. 

http://ioga.com/PDF_Files/IEPA IDNR MOA.pdf

PART 240 THE ILLINOIS OIL AND GAS ACT : Sections Listing


----------



## Mr. H.

American Oil Boom Shrinks Trade Deficit - Real Time Economics - WSJ

Shale gas could produce more than the 1 million jobs | cleveland.com

U.S. Natural Gas Exports Poised For Takeoff - Forbes


----------



## Mr. H.

Brought to you by Hydraulic Fracturing...

U.S. to become biggest oil producer and energy independent - Yahoo! Finance

I think the "energy independent" claim is a stretch, but good news nonetheless.


----------



## Mr. H.

Fascinating... increased domestic U.S. production is having an effect on world oil prices.

RIGZONE - Crude Slips as Report Highlights Rising U.S. Supply


----------



## bripat9643

ABikerSailor said:


> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?




What utter horseshit.

Libturds will believe anything, won't they?

Even if it did cause small earthquakes and flammable water, can you name one person who has been harmed?


----------



## bripat9643

Mr. H. said:


> Fascinating... increased domestic U.S. production is having an effect on world oil prices.
> 
> RIGZONE - Crude Slips as Report Highlights Rising U.S. Supply



Remember when libturds scoffed at the idea that U.S. drilling could affect the price of oil?

Have they ever been right about anything?


----------



## Mr. H.

bripat9643 said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating... increased domestic U.S. production is having an effect on world oil prices.
> 
> RIGZONE - Crude Slips as Report Highlights Rising U.S. Supply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember when libturds scoffed at the idea that U.S. drilling could affect the price of oil?
> 
> Have they ever been right about anything?
Click to expand...


Honestly, I too scoffed at the notion LOL. 

This unprecedented in modern U.S. history. I mean it blows my mind.


----------



## Mr. H.

*Natural gas fueling outlets - coast to coast and border to border!*

_"The agreement announced today with GE is one of the most significant milestones in Clean Energy's history..."_

RIGZONE - Clean Energy, GE Assessing Sites for Small-Scale LNG Plants


----------



## Grandma

How long is the natural gas supply expected to last?


----------



## RGR

Grandma said:


> How long is the natural gas supply expected to last?



If you are actually a grandma, don't worry, it will outlast your lifetime.


----------



## Grandma

Just wondering. I saw a report a while back that says a well peaks out at 2 to 3 years. At the rate they're drilling, the frackers will have fracked all the frackable locations in another 10 to 15 years. I was thinking it would totally dry up by 2035.


----------



## Mr. H.

_To put it bluntly, both you and your colleague are retarded._

Hey Grams- not directed at you. It was in response to a post that got deleted.


----------



## RGR

Grandma said:


> Just wondering. I saw a report a while back that says a well peaks out at 2 to 3 years. At the rate they're drilling, the frackers will have fracked all the frackable locations in another 10 to 15 years. I was thinking it would totally dry up by 2035.



A well usually peaks in its first full month of continuous production (which is generally its second month of production, barring operational issues).

The number of frackable locatons as referenced by USGS resource estimates runs into the 100,000's, perhaps even millions. Don't worry, it will take longer than from now to 2035 to make all those wells happen.


----------



## Mr. H.

What? No EPA mandated natural gas vehicles? Private industry takes the reins...

Natural gas drillers target US truck, bus market - Yahoo! News

SCRANTON, Pa. (AP) &#8212; _If the trash truck or bus rolling down your street seems a little quieter these days, you're not imagining things. It's probably running on natural gas.

Surging gas production has led the drilling industry to seek out new markets for its product, and energy companies, increasingly, are setting their sights on the transportation sector._


----------



## Mr. H.

U.S. Gas Exports Clear Hurdle - Yahoo! Finance

_The looming prospect of the U.S.'s becoming a major exporter of natural gas underscores how the energy revolution is transforming the nation's economic prospects. Just a few years ago, many energy companies were planning to build facilities to import liquefied natural gas into the U.S.

But thanks to technological advances, combining hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling, the U.S. has in a short time become a gas-producing powerhouse. The glut of cheap gas has helped underpin a revival in manufacturing and helped lower electricity costs for consumers._


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - How Fracking Could Save the Dollar

_The U.S. is on track to become the world's largest oil producer in eight years and the biggest producer of gas in five, according to the International Energy Agency, which projects energy self sufficiency in 25 years. That remarkable turnaround not only shifts the U.S. relationship with the Middle East but, as economists at RBC Capital Markets predicted in recent research note, will reduce energy imports so far that it will shrink the U.S. trade deficit and eventually convert the current account deficit into a surplus. Inevitably, RBC argues, *this will provide long-term support for the dollar*._


----------



## KissMy

Mr. H. said:


> RIGZONE - How Fracking Could Save the Dollar
> 
> _The U.S. is on track to become the world's largest oil producer in eight years and the biggest producer of gas in five, according to the International Energy Agency, which projects energy self sufficiency in 25 years. That remarkable turnaround not only shifts the U.S. relationship with the Middle East but, as economists at RBC Capital Markets predicted in recent research note, will reduce energy imports so far that it will shrink the U.S. trade deficit and eventually convert the current account deficit into a surplus. Inevitably, RBC argues, *this will provide long-term support for the dollar*._



It helps stability but China is just going to eat up any production increases. 50cc or less bicycle / rickshaw will still be a growing business here in the USA.


----------



## Mr. H.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/magazine/welcome-to-saudi-albany.html?_r=0

_In fact, many economists say that *fracking will soon fundamentally shift global economic logic to uniquely benefit the United States.*_


----------



## Mr. H.

*STUDY FINDS NEW NATURAL GAS DEVELOPMENT COULD CREATE MORE THAN 45,000 JOBS AND $9 BILLION IN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN ILLINOIS *

http://ilchamber.org/wp-content/upl...ion-Shale-Gas-Jobs-Study-Release-12.13.12.pdf

_The study is the first of its kind to focus solely on Illinois&#8217; potential when it comes to increased hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling &#8211; techniques that have been used in other states to create a nationwide boom in natural gas and oil production, as well as increasing economic development and much-needed jobs._


----------



## Staidhup

This President and is cadre of greens will never allow it on public land. Pipe lines are out, the environmental constituency will see to that, as for LNG distribution plant construction, nope, they won't go for that either.


----------



## Mr. H.

Staidhup said:


> This President and is cadre of greens will never allow it on public land. Pipe lines are out, the environmental constituency will see to that, as for LNG distribution plant construction, nope, they won't go for that either.



It's odd that there would be opposition to exporting U.S. LNG, seeing how we export millions of metric tons of ag grains each year while we pay record prices for groceries. 

This administration can't stand to see private enterprise succeed and grow and expand. 
It would rather dump our tax dollars into failed publicly-funded ventures.


----------



## Mr. H.

Who Needs Kyoto? Cheap Natural Gas Is the Answer | The Exchange - Yahoo! Finance

_According to the U.S. Energy Information Agency (EIA), America's greenhouse gas emissions are now at 1992 levels, down from their peak in 2008. Despite refusing to ratify Kyoto, the United States could be the first developed nation to reach the target._


----------



## Mr. H.

Here's the future, folks...


----------



## Mr. H.

Fuel Fix » Fracking boom is dollar boon in energy independence

_The dollar will be on average 2 percent stronger against 46 currencies by the end of 2014, as the price of West Texas Intermediate crude rises 14 percent, according to Bloomberg economist surveys._


----------



## Mr. H.

Shale-Gas Revolution Spurs Wave of New U.S. Steel Plants: Energy - Bloomberg

_Austrian steelmaker Voestalpine AG (VOE) said Dec. 19 it may construct a 500 million-euro ($661 million) factory in the U.S. to benefit from cheap gas. Nucor Corp. (NUE), the most valuable U.S. steelmaker, plans to start up a $750 million Louisiana project in mid-2013. They&#8217;re among at least five U.S. plants under consideration or being built that would use gas instead of coal to purify iron ore, the main ingredient in steel. 

&#8220;That technology has been around 30 years, but for 29 years gas prices in the U.S. were so high that the technology was not economical,&#8221; said Michelle Applebaum, managing partner at consulting firm Steel Market Intelligence in Chicago. &#8220;This is how steel will be built moving forward.&#8221; _


----------



## Mr. H.

Unfortunately, in 1961, humanity drilled where it should never have drilled...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFQqmHQMJBY]Reptilicus movie trailer - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Mr. H.

Shale Gas Will Fuel a U.S. Manufacturing Boom | MIT Technology Review

_The plummeting price of natural gas, which can be used to make a vast number of products, including tires, carpet, antifreeze, lubricants, cloth, and many types of plastic, *is luring key industries to the United States*._

HEY OBAMA - remove your oil and gas tax provisions from your proposed budget!

Step aside and let the real job creators do their thing.


----------



## Mr. H.

Energy boom poises Ohio for real growth





_Overall, by 2017, our study shows that natural gas will add between 42,900 and 84,000 jobs in Ohio from 2010 levels. This year alone, drilling will add $300 million in state and local taxes._


----------



## Mr. H.

California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State

Mark Mills: California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State - WSJ.com

_...California has Saudi Arabia-scale oil resources, notably in its largely untapped Monterey shale field, which stretches northeast for more than 200 miles from Bakersfield in central California. New technologies, especially smart, horizontal drilling and hydrofracturing, aka "fracking," make that oil accessible, and cleanly. The U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates that the Monterey shale field alone holds 15.4 billion barrels of oil, rivaling America's total conventional reserves. _


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State
> 
> Mark Mills: California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State - WSJ.com
> 
> _...California has Saudi Arabia-scale oil resources, notably in its largely untapped Monterey shale field, which stretches northeast for more than 200 miles from Bakersfield in central California. New technologies, especially smart, horizontal drilling and hydrofracturing, aka "fracking," make that oil accessible, and cleanly. The U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates that the Monterey shale field alone holds 15.4 billion barrels of oil, rivaling America's total conventional reserves. _



I don't think so.


----------



## Mr. H.

RGR said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State
> 
> Mark Mills: California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State - WSJ.com
> 
> _...California has Saudi Arabia-scale oil resources, notably in its largely untapped Monterey shale field, which stretches northeast for more than 200 miles from Bakersfield in central California. New technologies, especially smart, horizontal drilling and hydrofracturing, aka "fracking," make that oil accessible, and cleanly. The U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates that the Monterey shale field alone holds 15.4 billion barrels of oil, rivaling America's total conventional reserves. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so.
Click to expand...


?

Because California is California?

Or...


----------



## chikenwing

Mr. H. said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State
> 
> Mark Mills: California Could Be the Next Shale Boom State - WSJ.com
> 
> _...California has Saudi Arabia-scale oil resources, notably in its largely untapped Monterey shale field, which stretches northeast for more than 200 miles from Bakersfield in central California. New technologies, especially smart, horizontal drilling and hydrofracturing, aka "fracking," make that oil accessible, and cleanly. The U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates that the Monterey shale field alone holds 15.4 billion barrels of oil, rivaling America's total conventional reserves. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> Because California is California?
> 
> Or...
Click to expand...


I'll go with that,Cal is just like NY and look what NY has done with our gas resources.


----------



## Mr. H.

chikenwing said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> Because California is California?
> 
> Or...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll go with that,Cal is just like NY and look what NY has done with our gas resources.
Click to expand...


Nuttin'.

In other  news...

RIGZONE - Natural Gas Powering Apache Hydraulic Fracturing Ops

_"With abundant, inexpensive natural gas expected to be available in the United States for some time, I would challenge you to think of a better idea for the U.S. economy and the environment than switching from oil to natural gas," Bahorich commented. "We want to do our part to make that happen."_


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> Because California is California?
> 
> Or...
Click to expand...


The Monterey shale is a wonderful source rock. Filled up all those conventional reservoirs in the San Joaquin and LA Basins I believe. But its ability to be a reservoir rock when mature? Nope. Oil gone bye-bye.

All of the oil reported to be produced from the Monterey comes from the immature stuff. Sorry California. But don't feel bad, you've got some kick-ass conventional production, perhaps the densest areal concentration of oilfields on the planet.


----------



## RGR

chikenwing said:


> I'll go with that,Cal is just like NY and look what NY has done with our gas resources.



Geologically speaking, California ain't like NY. And NY doesn't have that much in the way of gas resources, just some little near the border of PA natural gas in the Marcellus. Some shallow Devonian stuff maybe, but that isn't much for volume.


----------



## American_Jihad

*FrackNation Sheds Truth on Fracking Debate*

Katie Tubb and Nicolas Loris
January 22, 2013

...

In talking with the experts, the legislators, and the people affected by their decisions, McAleer found answers to the myths that fracking leads to flaming faucets, earthquakes, toxic chemicals underground and in water, higher cancer rates, polluted air, and more. He also discovered the consequences of such untrue claims and red herrings.

Many anti-fracking apologists claim to be giving a voice to small-town folk who cannot compete in a David versus Goliath battle against big business. When McAleer goes to talk with these people in Pennsylvania, New York, Texas, and California he finds the exact opposite. These people are having a hard time competing with Hollywood philanthropy and leadership from distant governments. Further, irresponsible journalism, rather than uncovering victims, has created them and the consequences are very real.

...


FrackNation Sheds Truth on Fracking Debate.)


----------



## Mr. H.

rdean should appreciate this one...

RIGZONE - API: O&G Stocks Fuel Major Returns for U.S. College Endowments

_Investments by U.S. university endowments in U.S. oil and gas company stocks produced the highest returns for endowments for at least the last decade, according to a recent study conducted for the American Petroleum Institute (API)._


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - U.S. Will Remain Largest Source of New Oil Growth in 2013

_Topping the list of the big oil and gas stories in 2012 was the dramatic surge in U.S. oil production. In 2013, *the U.S. will remain the largest source of new oil growth worldwide aided by the shale boom*, but surpassing Saudi Arabia as the globe&#8217;s top oil producer by 2020 will be a challenge._

BOOM!


----------



## Mr. H.

Jobs. Economic development. Added GDP. Reduced balance of payments. Improvement in trade defecit. Bonuses and royalties to landowners as well as the federal government. Increased tax revenues across the board. Energy security. Reduction in atmospheric emissions because of  switch to natural gas from coal. What's not to like?

All brought to you by private enterprise, not government handouts of guaranteed loan payments /grants/ direct payments/ subsidies... ad nauseum, etc. 

Hydrocarbns kick ass.


----------



## Mr. H.

Energy In Depth » Blog Archive Shale Royalties Driving Growth In PA

_Natural gas royalties are changing people&#8217;s lives for the better, providing new forms of income for thousands who were previously struggling just to make ends meet._

_And royalties aren&#8217;t the only investments to speak of. Just this week, Cabot Oil & Gas Corporation announced the completion of its successful community-based campaign: The Cabot / EMHS Community Match Fund.  After the community struggle to raise funds for over four years, Cabot stepped up to provide financial support for the 55 year-old hospital and the community.  By working with the private sector, local government, and community members, the effort helped raise over $4.4 million for the construction of a new state-of-the-art health care facility in Susquehanna County. This not only does this mean jobs, but the other closest hospital is about an hour away, meaning the continued operation (and expansion) of this particular facility is incredibly important to the local community._


----------



## Mr. H.

IHS: Daniel Yergin: Unconventional Oil and Gas Revolution in US 'Goes Beyond Energy Itself' - Electric Light & Power

_Yergin cited recent IHS research finding that unconventional oil and gas (tight oil, shale gas and tight gas) production supports more than 1.7 million U.S. jobs and is expected to grow to 3 million by the end of the decade.

In addition to the economic impacts, Yergin discussed the impact on energy security and geopolitics, the importance of addressing environmental concerns associated with production and the outlook for U.S. energy exports._


----------



## Mr. H.

US shale oil reviving East Coast refineries - News - Boston.com

Fracking offers a cheaper supply; keeps gas prices from rising

_The influx of this domestic crude, known as tight oil, has allowed East Coast refineries to decrease their reliance on more expensive foreign oil, increase profit margins, and regain their economic competitiveness, refinery operators say. They estimate the domestic crude cuts oil costs by a few dollars per barrel, which can have a huge impact on their bottom line._


----------



## Mr. H.

Gas Boom Projected To Grow For Decades

_U.S. natural-gas production will accelerate over the next three decades, new research indicates, providing the strongest evidence yet that the energy boom remaking America will last for a generation.

The most exhaustive study to date of a key natural-gas field in Texas, combined with related research under way elsewhere, shows that U.S. shale-rock formations will provide a growing source of moderately priced natural gas through 2040, and decline only slowly after that. A report on the Texas field, to be released Thursday, was reviewed by The Wall Street Journal._


----------



## Mr. H.

FAR OUT!

Exclusive: Chinese firm puts millions into U.S. natural gas stations - Yahoo! News

_With plans to build 50 stations this year alone, ENN joins a small but formidable group of players -- including Clean Energy Fuels Corp and Royal Dutch Shell Plc -- in an aggressive push to develop an infrastructure for heavy-duty trucks fueled by cheap and abundant natural gas. Clean Energy is backed by T. Boone Pickens and Chesapeake Energy Corp._


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Energy Boom Helps Fuel West Texas, Great Plains Population Growth

_Exploration and production activity from Permian Basin and Eagle Ford helped bolster Texas oil production to nearly 1.5 million barrels of oil per day, an almost 50 percent increase in crude oil production since 2011, Texas Railroad Commissioner Christi Craddick said in a Feb. 28 statement. Craddick added that Texas now represents nearly a fourth of total U.S. crude oil production, and noted that the oil and gas energy sector created 427,761 jobs in Texas and paid $9.25 billion in state taxes in 2011.

The surge in exploration and production (E&P) activity in the Eagle Ford supported nearly 50,000 full-time jobs in 20 counties and contributed more than $25 billion to the South Texas economy, according to a March 13 report by the Eagle Ford Shale Task Force. However, the surge in E&P activity has created infrastructure challenges for South Texas, including the need for a sustainable housing plan for the region and roads wearing down from greater traffic._


----------



## Mr. H.

US shale gas to heat British homes within five years | Environment | guardian.co.uk

_Nearly 2m homes in the UK will be heated by shale gas from the US within five years, under a deal agreed on Monday that is likely to be the first time major exports of the controversial energy source are used in the UK.


The US government has kept a tight rein on exports since the shale gas boom started more than five years ago. But the deal struck by energy company Centrica marks the start of a new era in gas use in the UK, because it opens up the market to cheap supplies from the US, as North Sea gas fields run out and pipelines to Europe remain expensive._

WHY would the U.S. Government keep a "tight rein" on shale gas exports while we EXPORT tens of millions of metric tons of agricultural grains each year WHILE WE PAY RECORD PRICES FOR GROCERIES?


----------



## KissMy

What is the EROEI of this nat-gas fracking?


----------



## Mr. H.

KissMy said:


> What is the EROEI of this nat-gas fracking?





Puhleeze....


----------



## RGR

KissMy said:


> What is the EROEI of this nat-gas fracking?



Oh you've got to be joking. Jiggsy is about the only one dumb enough to fall for the EROEI stunt, last I looked, he was willing to trade 3 barrels of oil to someone for 2 barrels returned. I wish he hadn't wised up, coulda made a mint off the poor fool.


----------



## KissMy

Looks like their planting rows of crab-grass under there.


----------



## Mr. H.

KissMy said:


> Looks like their planting rows of crab-grass under there.



A telling graphic. Many wells from a single footprint. The industry is leaner and greener than ever before.


----------



## Mr. H.

This shit just keeps getting better...

Shale gas lures global manufacturers to US industrial revival | Reuters

FRANKFURT/VIENNA, March 26 (Reuters) - _When Wolfgang Eder and his team started looking around for a site for a new plant for Voestalpine, the Austrian steelmaker he heads, they had 17 sites in eight countries on their list.

This month, after more than a year of looking, they settled on the U.S. state of Texas, after a boom in the production of natural gas from shale extraction brought gas prices down to just a quarter of what companies paid in Europe._


----------



## KissMy

Mr. H. said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like their planting rows of crab-grass under there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A telling graphic. Many wells from a single footprint. The industry is leaner and greener than ever before.
Click to expand...


Are you drilling wells like those?


----------



## Mr. H.

KissMy said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like their planting rows of crab-grass under there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A telling graphic. Many wells from a single footprint. The industry is leaner and greener than ever before.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you drilling wells like those?
Click to expand...


LOL, I wish. That's way out of my league. 
I'm small taters.

However, I'm on the PR front line in Illinois trying to beat back the idiots that are spreading lies about hydraulic fracturing. Legislation is being written by fools that don't know jack shit about the industry.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Legislation is being written by fools that don't know jack shit about the industry.



Hardly a surprise in nearly any field, considering the quality (or lack thereof) of the people voted into office nowadays.


----------



## Mr. H.

The economic bounty of shale oil & gas - Oil & Gas Financial Journal

_Using Bureau of Labor quarterly census data the report provides a summary of state and national benefits attributed to growing US oil and gas production during 2012. For example, TIPRO reports that oil and gas industry employment increased by 65,000 to 971,000 in 2012.  But the benefits of increased production are not just confined to the oil and gas industry. According to a presentation by the Chamber of Commerce Institute for 21st Century Energy (ITCE) the shale revolution provided $237B of growth to the US economy in 2012. Today we look at how huge changes taking place in US energy supplies impact the wider economy._


----------



## Mr. H.

*Fracking revolutionized American energy as green energy failed*

Conn Carroll: Fracking revolutionized American energy as green energy failed | WashingtonExaminer.com

_No union/environmentalist central planner set out to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs by perfecting new methods of extracting shale oil and gas from rocks thousands of feet beneath the surface. But *that is exactly what the private sector has done*._


----------



## Underhill

I'm no expert.   And I probably would benefit greatly from fracking since my property (all 170 acres of it) would be prime for fracking.     

But I live 10 miles form the PA border.   Just over the border a few miles, people I know are seeing there water quality turn to shit within weeks of fracking operations beginning.  This in wells that have been fine for decades.   

One, I might believe coincidence.   But we aren't talking about one.   I know of at least 2 personally, and read about more in the local papers.

So I'm okay with NYS blocking fracking. 

But I'm a realist.   At some point the prices will start going up again and NYS will be pushed into lifting their ban.    Then I might just be in the money...


----------



## Mr. H.

Thanks for the input. I hope those folks have contacted the PA DNR or whoever oversees such incidents. 
I don't say it couldn't happen or never has happened, but such things are few and far between. And it has been proven as much. 

Every industrial process and application has inherent risks. Risk is much more easily managed than rampant unemployment and bankrupt state economies.


----------



## Underhill

I just don't know about that. 

As a percentage of the population, yes it is rare to have fracking affect your water supply.   But if they are putting a new rig within a half mile of your house, I don't think it's all that rare.    It may be 10%, maybe even 5%.   But it seems to happen enough that I don't want them in my back yard.


----------



## Mr. H.

I hope you also own your mineral rights. That is your prerogative to deny access.


----------



## Underhill

Mr. H. said:


> I hope you also own your mineral rights. That is your prerogative to deny access.



I do on my land.  But 100 yards from my house the land is owned by someone else...


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> One, I might believe coincidence.   But we aren't talking about one.   I know of at least 2 personally, and read about more in the local papers.



It is called "deep pockets". Oil companies have them. They show up, and well water which was good enough to drink since it was drilled suddenly becomes cloudy, gassy, infested with mice, you name it.

And then the landowners go after those with the deep pockets. Happens during house construction as well. You cracked my foundation when you ran that bulldozer past my house! (says the person with the cracked foundation stretching back to WWII).

And I am an expert. Or at least thats what the Pennsylvania regulators told me when they asked me to explain just how some of these issues could supposedly happen along the northern end of the state.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> But I'm a realist.   At some point the prices will start going up again and NYS will be pushed into lifting their ban.    Then I might just be in the money...



Good for you. It is a free country, and you can choose to sell, or keep, those rights.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you also own your mineral rights. That is your prerogative to deny access.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do on my land.  But 100 yards from my house the land is owned by someone else...
Click to expand...


This being a free country, you have the right to buy his mineral rights to protect yourself from fears of...well...anything really. The system works really well that way, offer them more than the oil company does and sit back, secure in the knowledge that you have protected yourself from imagined harm for as long as you are alive.


----------



## Mr. H.

I just got an email from the office of our non-profit industry coalition. We recently started airing informational commercials in the Chicago area on the facts of hydraulic fracturing. 

An anonymous caller left a message on the answering machine... _WOW!  You guys actually put an ad on the inter&#8230;&#8230;..an ad on public television! ( &#8216;smirking or sneering&#8217; under his breath&#8230;.&#8221
I Will Fight You to the Death!  Bye&#8230;.&#8221;_


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you also own your mineral rights. That is your prerogative to deny access.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do on my land.  But 100 yards from my house the land is owned by someone else...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This being a free country, you have the right to buy his mineral rights to protect yourself from fears of...well...anything really. The system works really well that way, offer them more than the oil company does and sit back, secure in the knowledge that you have protected yourself from imagined harm for as long as you are alive.
Click to expand...


Brilliant thinking.   Problem solved.   Fucking people just need to get off their asses and buy up 300 acres each and put their house in the middle.    Then they never have to worry.  

Why the fuck didn't I think of that?


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> This being a free country, you have the right to buy his mineral rights to protect yourself from fears of...well...anything really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brilliant thinking.   Problem solved.   Fucking people just need to get off their asses and buy up 300 acres each and put their house in the middle.    Then they never have to worry.
> 
> Why the fuck didn't I think of that?
Click to expand...


Perhaps because it is quite an obvious solution in the world we live in, within the rules we have created for ourselves. Don't like them? Feel free to dream up another solution, but on this planet, this stuff is obvious, and the ignorance was yours, in even needing to ask the question in the first place as though you weren't aware of the answer in the first place.

May I recommend thinking prior to whining next time?


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> One, I might believe coincidence.   But we aren't talking about one.   I know of at least 2 personally, and read about more in the local papers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is called "deep pockets". Oil companies have them. They show up, and well water which was good enough to drink since it was drilled suddenly becomes cloudy, gassy, infested with mice, you name it.
> 
> And then the landowners go after those with the deep pockets. Happens during house construction as well. You cracked my foundation when you ran that bulldozer past my house! (says the person with the cracked foundation stretching back to WWII).
> 
> And I am an expert. Or at least thats what the Pennsylvania regulators told me when they asked me to explain just how some of these issues could supposedly happen along the northern end of the state.
Click to expand...


Then you know what I am talking about.    As I live just the other side of that northern border.

I also notice you never said that it wasn't the drilling company (or construction companies) fault, only that they have deep pockets.

And of course, that would be why people sue.

That is not why multiple people watch their water quality go to shit immediately after the fracking begins.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> One, I might believe coincidence.   But we aren't talking about one.   I know of at least 2 personally, and read about more in the local papers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is called "deep pockets". Oil companies have them. They show up, and well water which was good enough to drink since it was drilled suddenly becomes cloudy, gassy, infested with mice, you name it.
> 
> And then the landowners go after those with the deep pockets. Happens during house construction as well. You cracked my foundation when you ran that bulldozer past my house! (says the person with the cracked foundation stretching back to WWII).
> 
> And I am an expert. Or at least thats what the Pennsylvania regulators told me when they asked me to explain just how some of these issues could supposedly happen along the northern end of the state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you know what I am talking about.    As I live just the other side of that northern border.
Click to expand...


Of course I do. I drank well water on the farm for nearly a decade after the local gas company fracked two wells on my grandmothers property. I then went on to become a petroleum engineer in charge of doing frack jobs back in the late-80's/early 90's.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> I also notice you never said that it wasn't the drilling company (or construction companies) fault, only that they have deep pockets.



Of course it isn't always the drilling companies fault. They put down layers of concrete and steel for a reason, and then when someone getting their drinking water from a fresh water aquifer which also happens to be a gas producing formation suddenly discovers that it might have methane in it, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the gas company. Don't want to drink water with methane in it? Don't live near coal mines, that is how most methane gets into drinking water in the first place, followed closely by well water coming from shales where methane is already present.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> That is not why multiple people watch their water quality go to shit immediately after the fracking begins.



The proper response would be, "That is not why multiple people CLAIM their water quality goes to shit immediately after the fracking begins".

That's where the deep pockets part comes in.

What those people obviously don't understand are the reservoir dynamics of hydraulic fracturing. No problem as far as I'm concerned, part of my job nowadays is explaining the geoengineering obvious to the uninformed, so it is a form of job security.


----------



## Mr. H.

Update on that anonymous anti-fracking caller mentioned above ("I'll fight you to the death!"): our exec. director contacted the Carol Stream, IL (from whence the call originated) police who referred him to the local police. I don't think we're going to file an official complaint. We just want to put the fear in him. 

I'd rather drink frac fluid than the kool aid some of these folks are swilling. It's sure as hell less toxic.


----------



## Mr. H.

Cheaper Power Bills? You Have NatGas to Thank - Yahoo! Finance

_If consumers have noticed their utility bills falling, it may not be a figment of their imagination. Although surging natural gas production in the U.S. has yet to result in lower gasoline prices, it has had one benefit already: curbing or even cutting power costs. _


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is called "deep pockets". Oil companies have them. They show up, and well water which was good enough to drink since it was drilled suddenly becomes cloudy, gassy, infested with mice, you name it.
> 
> And then the landowners go after those with the deep pockets. Happens during house construction as well. You cracked my foundation when you ran that bulldozer past my house! (says the person with the cracked foundation stretching back to WWII).
> 
> And I am an expert. Or at least thats what the Pennsylvania regulators told me when they asked me to explain just how some of these issues could supposedly happen along the northern end of the state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you know what I am talking about.    As I live just the other side of that northern border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course I do. I drank well water on the farm for nearly a decade after the local gas company fracked two wells on my grandmothers property. I then went on to become a petroleum engineer in charge of doing frack jobs back in the late-80's/early 90's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also notice you never said that it wasn't the drilling company (or construction companies) fault, only that they have deep pockets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course it isn't always the drilling companies fault. They put down layers of concrete and steel for a reason, and then when someone getting their drinking water from a fresh water aquifer which also happens to be a gas producing formation suddenly discovers that it might have methane in it, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the gas company. Don't want to drink water with methane in it? Don't live near coal mines, that is how most methane gets into drinking water in the first place, followed closely by well water coming from shales where methane is already present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not why multiple people watch their water quality go to shit immediately after the fracking begins.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The proper response would be, "That is not why multiple people CLAIM their water quality goes to shit immediately after the fracking begins".
> 
> That's where the deep pockets part comes in.
> 
> What those people obviously don't understand are the reservoir dynamics of hydraulic fracturing. No problem as far as I'm concerned, part of my job nowadays is explaining the geoengineering obvious to the uninformed, so it is a form of job security.
Click to expand...


The difference is, I actually know these people, or some of them.    They are not just looking for a pay day.  

But your position is not surprising since you admittedly work for them.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> What those people obviously don't understand are the reservoir dynamics of hydraulic fracturing. No problem as far as I'm concerned, part of my job nowadays is explaining the geoengineering obvious to the uninformed, so it is a form of job security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is, I actually know these people, or some of them.    They are not just looking for a pay day.
> 
> But your position is not surprising since you admittedly work for them.
Click to expand...


Sorry. Wrong answer. Haven't been in industry for more than 15 years now. My involvement only happened because the state asked for an independent opinion from someone with experience in the field, and unquestionable objectivity. That's the only reason my phone rang. 

I have no doubt you know the people, that just isn't really relevant to the physics involved in how frac fluids could make it into water wells. I am familiar with both the claims and the science. Those making the claims aren't, which is why they can even make the claims. Once the science gets involved, the claims, they don't hold up so well.


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> What those people obviously don't understand are the reservoir dynamics of hydraulic fracturing. No problem as far as I'm concerned, part of my job nowadays is explaining the geoengineering obvious to the uninformed, so it is a form of job security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is, I actually know these people, or some of them.    They are not just looking for a pay day.
> 
> But your position is not surprising since you admittedly work for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry. Wrong answer. Haven't been in industry for more than 15 years now. My involvement only happened because the state asked for an independent opinion from someone with experience in the field, and unquestionable objectivity. That's the only reason my phone rang.
> 
> I have no doubt you know the people, that just isn't really relevant to the physics involved in how frac fluids could make it into water wells. I am familiar with both the claims and the science. Those making the claims aren't, which is why they can even make the claims. Once the science gets involved, the claims, they don't hold up so well.
Click to expand...


I know enough about the science to know that their claims certainly could be true.    Claiming that it can't is nonsense. 

You are essentially using hydraulic pressure to crack rock under ground releasing oil or gas.   So the notion that it couldn't affect water tables, is absurd.   Of course it can, and does.   It is a science, but certainly not exact.  

I recognize that is not the goal of fracking.   I might even buy that it doesn't happen all that often in the big picture.   But it does happen.  

I can even relate to the frustration in the industry.   I work in the engineering department of a company who designs and builds equipment for coal power plants for fucks sake.


----------



## chikenwing

So far there has been zip!!! proven water well contamination from fracking.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> I know enough about the science to know that their claims certainly could be true.    Claiming that it can't is nonsense.



Really? Excellent! Then YOU can explain to them that differential pressure going in the wrong direction will never, ever, ever, allow frack fluid in one rock to zip off into another. Glad we can get this settled for the locals. No one ever talks about the flowback, and they miss the boat because of it.

Once you eliminate reservoir dynamics as a cause, all you are left with is regulatory inspections on things like well casing integrity and whatnot. By the way...I recommend you and everyone you know advocate that the state pay inspecters enough to get more qualified people, last time I was working with Pennsylvania EPA folks they didn't have a single petroleum engineer in the bunch. Poor people were listening to lawyers and ex-welltenders and whatnot.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> You are essentially using hydraulic pressure to crack rock under ground releasing oil or gas.   So the notion that it couldn't affect water tables, is absurd.   Of course it can, and does.   It is a science, but certainly not exact.



I recommend you update your knowledge on what happens as soon as the hydraulic fracturing is complete (that's the part where differential pressure really, REALLY begins to matter). And some brushup on current microseismic science work during hydraulic fracturing  wouldn't hurt either.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> I recognize that is not the goal of fracking.   I might even buy that it doesn't happen all that often in the big picture.   But it does happen.



But you apparently aren't aware of WHY. Tsk tsk.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> I can even relate to the frustration in the industry.   I work in the engineering department of a company who designs and builds equipment for coal power plants for fucks sake.



Nothing wrong with coal, makes good and useful energy, we have plenty of it. The reason why hydraulic fracturing seems to collect so much grief is it happens in people's backyards and whatnot, really up close and personal to the landowners.


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know enough about the science to know that their claims certainly could be true.    Claiming that it can't is nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Excellent! Then YOU can explain to them that differential pressure going in the wrong direction will never, ever, ever, allow frack fluid in one rock to zip off into another. Glad we can get this settled for the locals. No one ever talks about the flowback, and they miss the boat because of it.
> 
> Once you eliminate reservoir dynamics as a cause, all you are left with is regulatory inspections on things like well casing integrity and whatnot. By the way...I recommend you and everyone you know advocate that the state pay inspecters enough to get more qualified people, last time I was working with Pennsylvania EPA folks they didn't have a single petroleum engineer in the bunch. Poor people were listening to lawyers and ex-welltenders and whatnot.
Click to expand...


Think the EPA has a similar problem?   Because in 2011 they found fracking fluid in the Wyoming Aquifer.

EPA Finds Fracking Compound in Wyoming Aquifer: Scientific American



> I recommend you update your knowledge on what happens as soon as the hydraulic fracturing is complete (that's the part where differential pressure really, REALLY begins to matter). And some brushup on current microseismic science work during hydraulic fracturing  wouldn't hurt either.



Of course, but even you, and every website I visit on the subject, admit that a cracked casing can lead to water table problems.   Again, not common, but it does happen.   Which is pretty much what I said.    Whenever you are working at high pressures with toxic chemicals, affecting ground water is going to be an issue.  

I see it much like the pipeline issue.    It's a low risk problem, but if it happened in the wrong place, it could be disastrous.  



> But you apparently aren't aware of WHY. Tsk tsk.



Sure.



> Nothing wrong with coal, makes good and useful energy, we have plenty of it. The reason why hydraulic fracturing seems to collect so much grief is it happens in people's backyards and whatnot, really up close and personal to the landowners.



I don't know if I would go so far.   Of course there are problems with coal.   I could give you a laundry list.   But they are routinely exaggerated by the media and those who don't have any clue.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> Think the EPA has a similar problem?   Because in 2011 they found fracking fluid in the Wyoming Aquifer.
> 
> EPA Finds Fracking Compound in Wyoming Aquifer: Scientific American



You might know something about science, but you don't know dick about that study. And you really shouldn't reference it until you do.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> Whenever you are working at high pressures with toxic chemicals, affecting ground water is going to be an issue.



By spilling them on the surface mostly. Hardly the recipe for polluting freshwater aquifers. Were your neighbors drawing their water from the frac tanks themselves, or puddles on the ground after the crews left?



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> I see it much like the pipeline issue.    It's a low risk problem, but if it happened in the wrong place, it could be disastrous.



Sure. But the problem isn't fracking into the local freshwater supply. Unless your freshwater supply happens to be in a producing oil and gas formation (that is a hint for your EPA study..



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> Nothing wrong with coal, makes good and useful energy, we have plenty of it. The reason why hydraulic fracturing seems to collect so much grief is it happens in people's backyards and whatnot, really up close and personal to the landowners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if I would go so far.   Of course there are problems with coal.   I could give you a laundry list.   But they are routinely exaggerated by the media and those who don't have any clue.
Click to expand...


Sounds like landowners and fracking.


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think the EPA has a similar problem?   Because in 2011 they found fracking fluid in the Wyoming Aquifer.
> 
> EPA Finds Fracking Compound in Wyoming Aquifer: Scientific American
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might know something about science, but you don't know dick about that study. And you really shouldn't reference it until you do.
Click to expand...


So Scientific American got it wrong?



> By spilling them on the surface mostly. Hardly the recipe for polluting freshwater aquifers. Were your neighbors drawing their water from the frac tanks themselves, or puddles on the ground after the crews left?



Mostly...   



> Sure. But the problem isn't fracking into the local freshwater supply. Unless your freshwater supply happens to be in a producing oil and gas formation (that is a hint for your EPA study..



So the fracking fluid was already there?   Right.



> Sounds like landowners and fracking.



It would.   Except I admit there is a problem.   You want to gloss it over and deny a problem ever existed.   Sounds more like corporate dogma than real science.


----------



## editec

I note that in CO fracking tends ONLY TO HAPPEN where the midcle class and poor live.

the weathy communities somehow get a pass.

Gee! that's surprising, isn't it?

That GOD knew where the people who didn't matter would  live,  all those millions of years ago, when she was creating those shale oil deposits.

God must really love the well off.

Clearly she doesn't give a fuck about the rest of us.


----------



## SanTropez

editec said:


> I note that in CO fracking tends ONLY TO HAPPEN where the midcle class and poor live.
> 
> the weathy communities somehow get a pass.
> 
> Gee! that's surprising, isn't it?
> 
> That GOD knew where the people who didn't matter would  live,  all those millions of years ago, when she was creating those shale oil deposits.
> 
> God must really love the well off.
> 
> Clearly she doesn't give a fuck about the rest of us.






Yep, fracking is nasty and damages the rock layers/artesian springs.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> You might know something about science, but you don't know dick about that study. And you really shouldn't reference it until you do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Scientific American got it wrong?
Click to expand...


Nope. They reported what was in the report. The report got it wrong. One of the reasons why you don't take a journalists word for anything, not only is it possible they have their own slant on an issue, it is a rule that they never actually understand the particulars of scientific reports. Lift a paragraph from the conclusions is about the extent of their talents, and if the report pulls a boner, the journalist will never know it.

I've participated in these real time, it was hysterical. I told the reporter, "you don't know the difference between X and Y". The reporter was indignant. "Of course I do!". My response was, "then stop writing it wrong in the paper". That same reporter, when he wrote his article on that meeting, got it wrong. Because he didn't know the difference between X and Y. Absolute riot.




			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> So the fracking fluid was already there?   Right.



No. The water wells were drilled into, and produce water from, oil and gas producing formations which were hydraulically fracked. Don't put your water well into a producing gas field and act surprised when it produces something besides water. Are your neighbors dumb enough to drill their water wells into the Marcellus?

Would you like another clue? Another report from the same area found traces of anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) in their samples. Let me know when you think you know where that came from, it being not used in frac jobs but gee...wonder why...it might be in the samples? Ummmm....... 




			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> It would.   Except I admit there is a problem.   You want to gloss it over and deny a problem ever existed.   Sounds more like corporate dogma than real science.



Not true. I know better than to drill my water well into an oil and gas field and pretend that only water will come out. My expertise is the science of these things, I don't get asked whether or not reporters know what they are talking about, I get asked whether or not the science is valid, the study done properly, and the conclusions sound. You picked a bad report to reference, you just don't know why. I get paid to know why. Sorry, but verifying preconceived notions isn't part of the job, getting it right is.


----------



## RGR

SanTropez said:


> Yep, fracking is nasty and damages the rock layers/artesian springs.



Really? Can you even name an artesian spring that a frack job came blowing out of one afternoon? Because I promise you, when someone puts 4000# of pressure against your shallow artesian spring, you should be able to get a wonderful photo of the Old Faithful geyser it will imitate. Got a pic?


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> You might know something about science, but you don't know dick about that study. And you really shouldn't reference it until you do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Scientific American got it wrong?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope. They reported what was in the report. The report got it wrong. One of the reasons why you don't take a journalists word for anything, not only is it possible they have their own slant on an issue, it is a rule that they never actually understand the particulars of scientific reports. Lift a paragraph from the conclusions is about the extent of their talents, and if the report pulls a boner, the journalist will never know it.
> 
> I've participated in these real time, it was hysterical. I told the reporter, "you don't know the difference between X and Y". The reporter was indignant. "Of course I do!". My response was, "then stop writing it wrong in the paper". That same reporter, when he wrote his article on that meeting, got it wrong. Because he didn't know the difference between X and Y. Absolute riot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the fracking fluid was already there?   Right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No. The water wells were drilled into, and produce water from, oil and gas producing formations which were hydraulically fracked. Don't put your water well into a producing gas field and act surprised when it produces something besides water. Are your neighbors dumb enough to drill their water wells into the Marcellus?
> 
> Would you like another clue? Another report from the same area found traces of anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) in their samples. Let me know when you think you know where that came from, it being not used in frac jobs but gee...wonder why...it might be in the samples? Ummmm.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would.   Except I admit there is a problem.   You want to gloss it over and deny a problem ever existed.   Sounds more like corporate dogma than real science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not true. I know better than to drill my water well into an oil and gas field and pretend that only water will come out. My expertise is the science of these things, I don't get asked whether or not reporters know what they are talking about, I get asked whether or not the science is valid, the study done properly, and the conclusions sound. You picked a bad report to reference, you just don't know why. I get paid to know why. Sorry, but verifying preconceived notions isn't part of the job, getting it right is.
Click to expand...


So what you are claiming is that drilling an oil/gas well and pressurizing it, in an area with water wells, cannot possibly affect them, but drilling a water well where there is oil wells will get you shitty water. 

Got it.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> So what you are claiming is that drilling an oil/gas well and pressurizing it, in an area with water wells, cannot possibly affect them, but drilling a water well where there is oil wells will get you shitty water.
> 
> Got it.



Of course it can effect them. The same thing would happen if the Marcellus landowners had drilled their water wells into the Marcellus, rather than being miles higher in the section. Worse yet in the EPA example, surface casing is set to a depth shallow of where the landowners wandered with their water wells. Can't blame the companies for that one either, need to talk to your state regulatory agency. 

It is similar to setting up a card game on the back stretch at Daytona during the Daytona 500 and complaining that the noise is disturbing your game. Don't want bad water? Don't drill into an active oil and gas producing formation and pretend it is the companies fault that you did so.


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what you are claiming is that drilling an oil/gas well and pressurizing it, in an area with water wells, cannot possibly affect them, but drilling a water well where there is oil wells will get you shitty water.
> 
> Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it can effect them. The same thing would happen if the Marcellus landowners had drilled their water wells into the Marcellus, rather than being miles higher in the section. Worse yet in the EPA example, surface casing is set to a depth shallow of where the landowners wandered with their water wells. Can't blame the companies for that one either, need to talk to your state regulatory agency.
> 
> It is similar to setting up a card game on the back stretch at Daytona during the Daytona 500 and complaining that the noise is disturbing your game. Don't want bad water? Don't drill into an active oil and gas producing formation and pretend it is the companies fault that you did so.
Click to expand...


So playing cards at the Daytona 500 is stupid, but according to you, it's perfectly acceptable for street racers to show up at my weekly card game.  

Got it.

It's never the companies fault for anything.  If the landowners want to drill on their own land after fracking started they are to blame if their wells are shit.   And if the drilling company is allowed to drill in an area where there are water wells, it is the fault of regulators for allowing them.  

You are a company man through and through.


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - API: Investment in US Shale Drilling Up in 2011

_An estimated $65.5 billion was invested drilling an estimated 10,173 U.S. shale oil and natural gas wells in 2011, according to API's 2011 Joint Association Survey on Drilling Costs. The investment number represents an 87.6 percent increase in shale drilling expenditures from 2010 levels and more than half of an estimated $124.8 billion spent on all new wells drilled in 2011. The number of estimated shale wells drilled in 2011 is 43.8 percent more than in 2010. _ 

^ This is what other sectors of our economy should look like. 

Investment, jobs, economic activity, contributions to the GDP....

Yet oddly enough, Obama has chosen to single out these two vibrant booming industries for over $40 billion in taxation. 

The idiot has his head screwed on backwards.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> So playing cards at the Daytona 500 is stupid, but according to you, it's perfectly acceptable for street racers to show up at my weekly card game.



Now you are just being cute. 

Still stinging from my original and valid idea about how to keep people from fracking under nearby property?

Hey, like I said, job security because of the people who don't get this, you don't have to be ashamed that you fall into that category just because of your inexperience in the field, just as I might be with coal stuff.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> It's never the companies fault for anything.



Wrong again. I blew up a frack job once upon a time, they are easy to see, it didn't require landowners running around with mason jars of their poor well water quality for me to fix it. I just did. Industry spec to do those types of things, do whatever is required by the regulations to get it done. Don't like your regulations? I recommend  letter writing campaign. Just make sure to find yourself someone who knows something about this stuff first, you wouldn't want to go waving around a copy of the EPA study as "proof" and have someone like me working for the other side. 



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> If the landowners want to drill on their own land after fracking started they are to blame if their wells are shit.   And if the drilling company is allowed to drill in an area where there are water wells, it is the fault of regulators for allowing them.
> 
> You are a company man through and through.



Not any more. But don't feel bad about it, fortunately for you the odds are near astronomical that nothing bad will happen to your water supply, fracking or no fracking. Rejoice in the good news! At the very least you know not to drill your water well down 10,000' to the Marcellus!


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Investment, jobs, economic activity, contributions to the GDP....
> 
> Yet oddly enough, Obama has chosen to single out these two vibrant booming industries for over $40 billion in taxation.
> 
> The idiot has his head screwed on backwards.



Obama has other things on his mind than creating jobs and whatnot.


----------



## Mr. H.

State: Drilling didn't foul northeast Pa. wells | Press & Sun-Bulletin | pressconnects.com

MONTROSE, PA. &#8212; _Gas drilling isn&#8217;t to blame for a high-profile case of methane contamination in northeastern Pennsylvania, state environmental regulators declared Monday, but a homeowner with fouled water vowed to press on and said she doesn&#8217;t trust the agency.

Anti-fracking celebrities including Yoko Ono and Susan Sarandon had visited the Susquehanna County village of Franklin Forks in January as part of a tour of natural-gas drilling sites. There, the stars met with Matthew and Tammy Manning, who blame the high level of methane in their well water on a natural gas driller, WPX Energy.

But the state Department of Environmental Protection said its 16-month investigation shows WPX isn&#8217;t responsible for high levels of methane and other contaminants in the private water wells at three homes.

The methane in the residents&#8217; wells is naturally occurring shallow gas &#8212; possibly from nearby Salt Springs State Park &#8212; and not production gas from the Marcellus Shale formation, DEP said. The agency said that samples taken from the wells and from Salt Springs exhibited similar water chemistry, including high levels of barium, iron, chlorides and other contaminants._

Check out the picture of Yoko.


----------



## freedombecki

Mr. H. said:


> I could have buried this in one of the many existing threads on Fracking, but it deserves it's own look.
> 
> The article touches on the effects of increased U.S. natural gas production in far-flung parts of the world including the Middle East, China, Russia, Venezuela, etc.
> 
> *U.S. Shale Boom Reduces Russian Influence Over European Gas Market*
> 
> _The U.S. shale gas boom has not only virtually eliminated the need for U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports for at least two decades, but significantly reduced Russias influence over the European natural gas market and "diminished the petro-power" of major gas producers in the Middle East and Venezuela._
> 
> *And here's the kicker*- Obama's proposed tax policies are directed at bringing the American oil and natural gas industries to it's knees:
> 
> _Changes to U.S. tax policy for upstream oil and gas, including proposed changes to expensing rules, investment credits, and/or royalty rates, could also make shale exploration and production unprofitable at current prices._


 It's too bad American politics have gotten to the point of liberals punishing those who bring them tax money in return for their hard work. He can't leave office soon enough. We need to restore government to governing people, not diapering them. That's the parents' job.


----------



## freedombecki

Mr. H. said:


> RIGZONE - API: Investment in US Shale Drilling Up in 2011
> 
> _An estimated $65.5 billion was invested drilling an estimated 10,173 U.S. shale oil and natural gas wells in 2011, according to API's 2011 Joint Association Survey on Drilling Costs. The investment number represents an 87.6 percent increase in shale drilling expenditures from 2010 levels and more than half of an estimated $124.8 billion spent on all new wells drilled in 2011. The number of estimated shale wells drilled in 2011 is 43.8 percent more than in 2010. _
> 
> ^ This is what other sectors of our economy should look like.
> 
> Investment, jobs, economic activity, contributions to the GDP....
> 
> Yet oddly enough, Obama has chosen to single out these two vibrant booming industries for over $40 billion in taxation.
> 
> The idiot has his head screwed on backwards.


It's not going to be easy to change 8 years of beating up winner companies to disable them from paying taxes and stimulating the investment market.

Oh, that's the point. Finish off Wall Street as a tactic of avoiding terrorist strikes of jealous extremists.


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> So playing cards at the Daytona 500 is stupid, but according to you, it's perfectly acceptable for street racers to show up at my weekly card game.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are just being cute.
> 
> Still stinging from my original and valid idea about how to keep people from fracking under nearby property?
> 
> Hey, like I said, job security because of the people who don't get this, you don't have to be ashamed that you fall into that category just because of your inexperience in the field, just as I might be with coal stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's never the companies fault for anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong again. I blew up a frack job once upon a time, they are easy to see, it didn't require landowners running around with mason jars of their poor well water quality for me to fix it. I just did. Industry spec to do those types of things, do whatever is required by the regulations to get it done. Don't like your regulations? I recommend  letter writing campaign. Just make sure to find yourself someone who knows something about this stuff first, you wouldn't want to go waving around a copy of the EPA study as "proof" and have someone like me working for the other side.
Click to expand...


I am actually quite happy with our current regulations in NYS.   But the oil and gas industry is hard at work to get rid of them...



> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the landowners want to drill on their own land after fracking started they are to blame if their wells are shit.   And if the drilling company is allowed to drill in an area where there are water wells, it is the fault of regulators for allowing them.
> 
> You are a company man through and through.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not any more. But don't feel bad about it, fortunately for you the odds are near astronomical that nothing bad will happen to your water supply, fracking or no fracking. Rejoice in the good news! At the very least you know not to drill your water well down 10,000' to the Marcellus!
Click to expand...


Yay.


----------



## Mr. H.

Underhill said:


> I am actually quite happy with our current regulations in NYS.   But the oil and gas industry is hard at work to get rid of them...



Yoko Ono being your go-to expert on the issues...


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> I am actually quite happy with our current regulations in NYS.   But the oil and gas industry is hard at work to get rid of them...



But of course. When a state can benefit on one hand with near zero effort/cost on the other (how much natural gas does New York state use versus produce?) it is easy to be happy when the game is all benefit.

Limit the state to only the natural gas it produces, and the consequences which follow, and opinions tend to change. Of course, that will never happen, but it is a wonderful idea to make people face the consequences of their decisions. NY does about as well ignoring their energy reality as California does, fortunately for them other states don't specialize in financial shenanigans, high class banksterism, playing revolving doors with government to make sure that defrauding the working guy stays legal in America, that sort of stuff. Some people still work for a living.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Just out of curiosity. 

How many of you have experience in the petroleum field?


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am actually quite happy with our current regulations in NYS.   But the oil and gas industry is hard at work to get rid of them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yoko Ono being your go-to expert on the issues...
Click to expand...


I always like it when celebrities get involved. Makes it so much easier to spot the lemmings, they fall all over themselves in the rush to confuse celebrity with functioning neurons.


----------



## Underhill

Lonestar_logic said:


> Just out of curiosity.
> 
> How many of you have experience in the petroleum field?



I live in a petroleum field.   Am surrounded by oil wells.   Grew up working on pipelines during the summer as a teenager.    

But I do not currently work in the field.


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am actually quite happy with our current regulations in NYS.   But the oil and gas industry is hard at work to get rid of them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But of course. When a state can benefit on one hand with near zero effort/cost on the other (how much natural gas does New York state use versus produce?) it is easy to be happy when the game is all benefit.
> 
> Limit the state to only the natural gas it produces, and the consequences which follow, and opinions tend to change. Of course, that will never happen, but it is a wonderful idea to make people face the consequences of their decisions. NY does about as well ignoring their energy reality as California does, fortunately for them other states don't specialize in financial shenanigans, high class banksterism, playing revolving doors with government to make sure that defrauding the working guy stays legal in America, that sort of stuff. Some people still work for a living.
Click to expand...


Brilliant.   By that logic about 4 states would have enough natural gas and oil and the rest would shrivel up and die.


----------



## Mr. H.

Lonestar_logic said:


> Just out of curiosity.
> 
> How many of you have experience in the petroleum field?



36 years here. But it's a huge industry. Nobody know everything about everything. 
Except maybe Jiggs Casey


----------



## RGR

Lonestar_logic said:


> Just out of curiosity.
> 
> How many of you have experience in the petroleum field?



Since before I graduated from college in petroleum engineering.

13+ in the field, post grad work, 16+ in research, just changed positions to something more akin to senior analyst.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> By that logic about 4 states would have enough natural gas and oil and the rest would shrivel up and die.



Not at all. But the energy beggars certainly don't get to dictate to anyone else what the cost is of the benefit they expect. Want more natural gas than you can produce? Fine. Then talk to those who have a surplus they are willing to sell, and understand that part of the reason they have a surplus is because they know what they are doing, and energy beggars certainly don't get to second guess those who know what they are doing.


----------



## Underhill

RGR said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> By that logic about 4 states would have enough natural gas and oil and the rest would shrivel up and die.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. But the energy beggars certainly don't get to dictate to anyone else what the cost is of the benefit they expect. Want more natural gas than you can produce? Fine. Then talk to those who have a surplus they are willing to sell, and understand that part of the reason they have a surplus is because they know what they are doing, and energy beggars certainly don't get to second guess those who know what they are doing.
Click to expand...


There's a bit more to it than "knowing what they are doing".

You know, like how much oil and gas is in the ground.  

And obviously, the majority of our oil comes from a few states.


----------



## RGR

Underhill said:


> There's a bit more to it than "knowing what they are doing".
> 
> You know, like how much oil and gas is in the ground.



Absolutely. And states which import tons of energy so they can pretend to be not associated with those dirty/nasty industries but HAVE that energy (like California and New York) certainly aren't in that category.



			
				Underhill said:
			
		

> And obviously, the majority of our oil comes from a few states.



Yep. So the game for a state is to hope it doesn't have energy resources under its land, then they can benefit without a cost higher than just paying for someone to provide them with the product. It is the hypocrites who need the motivation to be less hypocritical.


----------



## Mr. H.

Getting back to "larger implications"...

Could fracking solve China's energy problems?

_We need a solution for energy production that can displace the rapid growth of coal use today. Switching from coal to natural gas could reduce the growth of China's emissions by more than 50 percent and give the world more time to bring down the cost of solar and wind energy to levels that are affordable for poorer countries._


----------



## Mr. H.

U.S. oil boom leaves OPEC sidelined from demand growth - Yahoo! Finance

LONDON (Reuters) - _Rising U.S. shale oil production will help meet most of the world's new oil demand in the next five years, even if the global economy picks up steam, leaving little room for OPEC to lift output without risking lower prices, the West's energy agency said._


----------



## Mr. H.

It appears that successful industrial endeavors are doing more to lower gasoline prices than our unsuccessful President...

WTI Crude Falls a Fourth Day on U.S. Supply; IEA Sees Shale Boom - Businessweek

_West Texas Intermediate traded near the lowest level in more than a week on forecasts that *U.S. supplies climbed to the highest since at least 1931 amid production the IEA said is &#8220;transformative&#8221; for world markets.* _


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> Getting back to "larger implications"...
> 
> Could fracking solve China's energy problems?
> 
> _We need a solution for energy production that can displace the rapid growth of coal use today. Switching from coal to natural gas could reduce the growth of China's emissions by more than 50 percent and give the world more time to bring down the cost of solar and wind energy to levels that are affordable for poorer countries._



I don't think it's a very good trade off though H.  The damage and chemicals the gas companies are using far far out way the damage and chemicals the coal companies used.  The coal companies dug, scooped, then reclaimed and cleaned the smoke from processing it.  
You don't know they were even here, and at the bottom of the trenches they dug out, little lakes formed with clear blue water which provided the *best* make-out spots. 

 The EPA picks 1 maybe 2 wells that they will check on regularly.  The rest they won't even inspect.  China has bought a substantial part of Chesapeake Oil. We are sacrificing Ohio, Pa. and W.Va to give China a good deal on gas and oil.  

I am the last hold out  here in this section.  Chesapeake has completely surrounded me, and now I have no choice.  I took their contract to my lawyer this morning.  It is a horrendous contract,  and there is no doubt  in my mind that they will be destroying my well and the creek that runs through the property. 

If I don't sign, they can execute a rule of capture, and suck my gas right out with the neighbors.  If they foul the creek, they can do that right around the bend and it will kill all of my animals when it gets here.  My house would never sell if the creek is ruined. We would have to just abandon it.   
The perks are the $4,000 per acre, and free gas, and royalties.  Gas royalties are nice, but what they have hit here is oil.  All of a sudden, royalty checks are coming in at 400,000.00 a check.
It is a game of roulette now.  Is the oil on red or black.  Will it be our unit that is sitting on it or the one next to ours?  
My husband's starting to look like Jed Clampett.


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Getting back to "larger implications"...
> 
> Could fracking solve China's energy problems?
> 
> _We need a solution for energy production that can displace the rapid growth of coal use today. Switching from coal to natural gas could reduce the growth of China's emissions by more than 50 percent and give the world more time to bring down the cost of solar and wind energy to levels that are affordable for poorer countries._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a very good trade off though H.  The damage and chemicals the gas companies are using far far out way the damage and chemicals the coal companies used.  The coal companies dug, scooped, then reclaimed and cleaned the smoke from processing it.
> You don't know they were even here, and at the bottom of the trenches they dug out, little lakes formed with clear blue water which provided the *best* make-out spots.
> 
> The EPA picks 1 maybe 2 wells that they will check on regularly.  The rest they won't even inspect.  China has bought a substantial part of Chesapeake Oil. We are sacrificing Ohio, Pa. and W.Va to give China a good deal on gas and oil.
> 
> I am the last hold out  here in this section.  Chesapeake has completely surrounded me, and now I have no choice.  I took their contract to my lawyer this morning.  It is a horrendous contract,  and there is no doubt  in my mind that they will be destroying my well and the creek that runs through the property.
> 
> If I don't sign, they can execute a rule of capture, and suck my gas right out with the neighbors.  If they foul the creek, they can do that right around the bend and it will kill all of my animals when it gets here.  My house would never sell if the creek is ruined. We would have to just abandon it.
> The perks are the $4,000 per acre, and free gas, and royalties.  Gas royalties are nice, but what they have hit here is oil.  All of a sudden, royalty checks are coming in at 400,000.00 a check.
> It is a game of roulette now.  Is the oil on red or black.  Will it be our unit that is sitting on it or the one next to ours?
> My husband's starting to look like Jed Clampett.
Click to expand...


I don't think the term is "rule of capture", but "forced pooling". And if there is no actual production from your property, you will still share in the revenues derived from your neighbors' properties.

And you are sadly mistaken regarding "damage and chemicals". 

Enjoy your paycheck while you continue to spread lies and fear.


----------



## The Irish Ram

I thought we were discussing Fracking.  I didn't realize till I went back through the thread that this issue is you baby.  If I offended  you  then,  tough shit.

Because if fracking is your baby, then I'm your baby mama.  While more gas, more oil, more jobs, *is* great, we're not going to pretend from a far that there are no consequences to pay.  We are dealing with the problems daily, we live on this land.  We've been here before.  We live through the good *AND the bad.* 
*We are aware* that at least one road a day is closed here just from overturned trucks spilling their loads.  Our roads are being destroyed quicker than Chesapeake can repair them. Gas well explosions, oil slicks, and they are just getting started. 
Here is part 1;
Our little towns here are so depressed from the unemployment and the closing of our mills by the EPA, they can no longer pay the firemen, police or even  keep the street lights on at night, so you aren't going to tell me about the blessing of industry. We are thankful for our gas and oil. We were dying. 
And here is part 2:
We were happy to see the creek become live again after being fouled for 15 years, a consequence of industry. (regulated, oops, sulfur seepage.) Fear of it then, fear of it now.  We don't hang our hopes on Gov. regulations.  We *know* the risks.

 I used to play with shale as a kid.  Tap the side and you can peel it away in layers.  It's very frail.  Ohio rests on shale. Shale is our bedrock. The gas and oil underneath the shale is what prevents the shale from crumbling under the weight of the earth above it *where are houses sit*.  

We  understand the consequences of removing the pressure that the oil and gas exert on the shale.
We will fix our foundations and cracks in our walls when they remove the gas and oil and crush the shale underneath our feet.  The tremors have already started.

I set the newspaper beside my computer and listed the chemicals that the gas company had just received permission to pump into our soil.  I'll look for it and re post it here.  Then you can point out for me any that *aren't* harmful.  We grow your food in this soil.  Your hamburger dined on the corn we grew here.  Your tofu used to be our soy crop. 

There is no legality, no regulation, no propaganda that we haven't fully researched.  
You aren't going to tell me anything that we haven't considered.  Our lives, our homes are here.  

And I have no reason to lie.  I will both benefit and pay for the gas and oil they will be extracting from under my land.  
You're rude.


----------



## Mr. H.

LOL you can talk about anything in this thread I don't mind.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> The damage and chemicals the gas companies are using far far out way the damage and chemicals the coal companies used.



You mean all the water contained in the frack job is bad? Because they sure been having a tough time finding the chemicals used in frack jobs anyplace except a mile or two underground.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> The EPA picks 1 maybe 2 wells that they will check on regularly.  The rest they won't even inspect.  China has bought a substantial part of Chesapeake Oil. We are sacrificing Ohio, Pa. and W.Va to give China a good deal on gas and oil.



The gas powers New York City, not Beijing. And the state inspectors inspect all the time, the EPA isn't the primary regulator of oil and gas production, thank God. And no, we aren't sacrificing anything, the landowners sign over the mineral rights to the companies so they can be extracted, not your claim of "we".



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> The perks are the $4,000 per acre, and free gas, and royalties.  Gas royalties are nice, but what they have hit here is oil.  All of a sudden, royalty checks are coming in at 400,000.00 a check.
> It is a game of roulette now.  Is the oil on red or black.  Will it be our unit that is sitting on it or the one next to ours?
> My husband's starting to look like Jed Clampett.



Good for you. Profiting from mineral rights is an American tradition. Just one hint for the unwary, make sure you aren't just giving them an option.


----------



## The Irish Ram

China bought a chunk of Chesapeake for a reason.  
This is not New York.  Here they do not inspect all the time, or all of the well sites.

My cousin, whose property is adjacent to mine, and I spent 2 hours night before last going over the ramifications of me signing up.  He leased 300 acres, but kept 70 hands off.  I was his buffer as far as adjacent leased property was concerned.  *We* all have to make sure that *we* don't do anything that will effect our neighbors.  That is where the *we* comes into affect.

Apparently you already know the stipulations in the leases concerning permanent easements, widths, overlay and overlap, marketable timber removal, and especially the clause that a lessor cannot restrict access to adjacent leased property.  If 2 sentences weren't dealt with in *his* lease then his pastures, hay fields, front yard, and barn can potentially turn into a 140 foot wide access road, because of *my* lease.

And there is no, "hey, you can't do that!" moment.  Ask the rod and gun club owner they just put out of business who gave them horizontal rights only, but lost his surface,  because you can't deny them access to what they put under your surface.  He's still in court.  In fact they so rarely play by the rules, we have a shortage of lawyers now.  Never thought I'd say that.    But, you know all of that, right? 
By the way, are you a city dweller? Have you had experience with the gas companies?

Have you talked to Marion Stone and her boy Brian, who refused to sign with Chesapeake?  They unitized her and pooled her 220 acres of gas and oil right out from under her, anyway.  Then claimed innocence by the rule of capture.  Judge denied.  Marion will probably lose their farm trying to fight Chesapeake, who will sell out to Chevron before the suit is settled, who will claim it's not *their* fault............ 
Good faith contracts are used for toilet paper at Corp. headquarters. 

What is suppose to happen is what *we* hope for, and what goes wrong is what *we* live with.
But what do *we* know here in Ohio........


----------



## Mr. H.

Every lease is different. How would any of us know of "stipulations".

A lease contains exactly what the lessee and lessor agree to. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> China bought a chunk of Chesapeake for a reason.
> This is not New York.  Here they do not inspect all the time, or all of the well sites.



They did. The Chinese want to learn how to drill their own shale wells, and buying into American companies lets them watch. And New York doesn't inspect all the time either, but it doesn't really matter in either case, once you are familiar with the capabilities of the inspectors.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Apparently you already know the stipulations in the leases concerning permanent easements, widths, overlay and overlap, marketable timber removal, and especially the clause that a lessor cannot restrict access to adjacent leased property.  If 2 sentences weren't dealt with in *his* lease then his pastures, hay fields, front yard, and barn can potentially turn into a 140 foot wide access road, because of *my* lease.



I've used leases to educate landowners more than once or twice. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> In fact they so rarely play by the rules, we have a shortage of lawyers now.  Never thought I'd say that.    But, you know all of that, right?



Of course. Be careful what you sign, lest someone actually hold you to the deal you signed and not the one you imagined you signed.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> By the way, are you a city dweller? Have you had experience with the gas companies?



Raised on a farm with well water, and 2 fracked gas wells sitting above a coal field. Worked in the business for a decade (petroleum engineer) before becoming a staff scientist in the equivalent of a think tank. Changed jobs just this year, out of science and into energy modeling and technical advisor. I've drilled, completed, fracked, produced, plugged and run a 1000 well production company.

So yeah, I am very familiar with what landowners say. And do.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Have you talked to Marion Stone and her boy Brian, who refused to sign with Chesapeake?  They unitized her and pooled her 220 acres of gas and oil right out from under her, anyway.  Then claimed innocence by the rule of capture.  Judge denied.  Marion will probably lose their farm trying to fight Chesapeake, who will sell out to Chevron before the suit is settled, who will claim it's not *their* fault............
> Good faith contracts are used for toilet paper at Corp. headquarters.



I recommend you teach your neighbors all you can and the pertinent laws in your state. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and the extraction industries know it really well.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> What is suppose to happen is what *we* hope for, and what goes wrong is what *we* live with.
> But what do *we* know here in Ohio........



Half of my industry experience was in Ohio. You really don't know much, take my word for it. A landowner that can actually explain how a frack job could ever pollute their groundwater is a rare thing. Nearly non-existent as a matter of fact.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> Every lease is different. How would any of us know of "stipulations".
> 
> A lease contains exactly what the lessee and lessor agree to. Nothing more, nothing less.



The initial lease never makes it to the table.   Every individual landowner's requirements are different.  There is no standard agreement that we are signing.  That is why we all communicate with each other.  We know that what they say on paper, has little to do with what they do.  For instance we are all taking turns testing the creek water, because they aren't going to, even though they promise to.  

I know you don't know the stipulations, which is why I don't understand being called a liar, because,  I do know the stipulations.  There is a lot of good the gas industry has generated.  There's bad too.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Considering we live on the land we lease, I'm pretty sure that I don't need to teach my neighbors anything.  We all do our homework. We've all been through it before.  Gas wells, coal mining, copper mining, and now we are back to gas and oil.

If you think we know nothing, maybe you should enlighten me so I can pass it along.  It's not *could* they foul the creek,  it's what are our options *when* they  foul the creek.  It's not that they will be blowing out our water wells, it's what is the best way to hold them accountable when they do.  
Your occupation is what we protect ourselves against.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Considering we live on the land we lease, I'm pretty sure that I don't need to teach my neighbors anything.  We all do our homework. We've all been through it before.  Gas wells, coal mining, copper mining, and now we are back to gas and oil.



Maybe. Maybe not. But education of all involved certainly never hurts.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> If you think we know nothing, maybe you should enlighten me so I can pass it along.



Sure. What would you like to know?



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> It's not *could* they foul the creek,  it's what are our options *when* they  foul the creek.  It's not that they will be blowing out our water wells, it's what is the best way to hold them accountable when they do.
> Your occupation is what we protect ourselves against.



Good luck with that. We've been doing what we do alot longer than landowners have been pretending to be afraid of hydraulic fracturing.


----------



## JiggsCasey

lol... Irish, ask him about decline rates. 

He doesn't seem to have a narrative for what -30% each year means for the short-term future of a $10 million well. ... They shoot their wad for about a year or two, maybe three. Then it's a disaster. Hopefully they've sold off enough fattening shares by that time.

RGR will remind us all what a sage scribe he is on the technical aspects of raping the earth for tight oil/gas. Just ask him. ... But he seems to have tremendous trouble with the economic aspect of energy as _THE_ driver for the world economy.

Standing over his corpse once I pinned him down on this fundamental aspect of his "no problem" storyline, I grew bored here.

They have absolutely no answer for the fundamental question of "at what cost?" About the best RGR has shown when confronted with that simple question has been 1) "I'm still filling up MY car!", or , 2) "so? ride your bike!" ...  I know, it's deep stuff.


----------



## The Irish Ram

> Rogers and other energy analysts agree that the industrys plan to export natural gas overseas to countries like China, where they can sell it for much higher prices, will inevitably drive up domestic prices.



^ We are banking on it. 

Because Obama has shut down our coal industry,  and our unemployment is through the roof.




> Sure. What would you like to know?


Does the gas company plan on doing the same thing around Cripple Creek, Co. that they have done to Rifle?


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> lol... Irish, ask him about decline rates.



Why? It isn't as though you can discuss them intelligently. What happened, someone move your favorite rock? 



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> RGR will remind us all what a sage scribe he is on the technical aspects of raping the earth for tight oil/gas. Just ask him. ... But he seems to have tremendous trouble with the economic aspect of energy as _THE_ driver for the world economy.



Admittedly I specialize on the technical side of the oil and gas business, but those of us who managed technical projects are also quite familiar with the economics of our work. More so than forum denizens who want to trade someone 3 barrels in exchange for 2 and aren't even smart enough to figure out how ignorant that is. Right Jiggsy?



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> They have absolutely no answer for the fundamental question of "at what cost?"



Oh Jiggsy. Please. I built a global cost of supply curve not two weeks ago. Use it in my most recent models as a matter of fact. I don't suppose you can show us one provided to the parrots in your particular religion can you?  Yeah...didn't think so. 



			
				JiggsyCasey said:
			
		

> About the best RGR has shown when confronted with that simple question has been 1) "I'm still filling up MY car!", or , 2) "so? ride your bike!" ...  I know, it's deep stuff.



Well, to you deep stuff might be understanding how riding a bike saves you the $$ of wasting liquid fuels, but not everyone suffers from the reading comprehension of a second grader. 

Now run off like a good little disciple and find yourself another rock to hide under Jiggsy.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Rogers and other energy analysts agree that the industrys plan to export natural gas overseas to countries like China, where they can sell it for much higher prices, will inevitably drive up domestic prices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ We are banking on it.
> 
> Because Obama has shut down our coal industry,  and our unemployment is through the roof.
Click to expand...


Well, that is his plan, right? Knowing that the hopey changey thing would wear off, the goal of  making as many people as possible dependent on the government become important for the votes going into the second term. He succeeded, and one of the consequences of those policies was to make sure certain places suffered high unemployment. But he can't stop development on private land s easily, and that is allowing way too much development for his liking I imagine.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Sure. What would you like to know?
> 
> 
> 
> Does the gas company plan on doing the same thing around Cripple Creek, Co. that they have done to Rifle?
Click to expand...


It depends on what you THINK they have done? Cripple Creek is quite famous for its gold mining history, as opposed to natural gas development. The mountains of Colorado being a poor place to find a sedimentary basin from which to produce said gas. Rifle on the other hand is in the Piceance Basin and quite prolific in oil and gas development. You want gas companies to develop non-existent natural gas in Cripple Creek Colorado? Why?


----------



## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> JiggsCasey said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol... Irish, ask him about decline rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why? It isn't as though you can discuss them intelligently. What happened, someone move your favorite rock?
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's what I thought you'd punt to. Coward. ... I especially love the unfalsifiable claim regarding your business life. Clear sign of a bullshit artist at work, avoiding 3rd-party links we can all verify, and instead making boasts of how awesome he/she is on the job. LOL.

You won't acknowledge decline rates for your pet industry because they completely dismantle the "no problem" argument you've put so much energy into already.

So you pretend you're above it all and hope no one calls you on it. Over and over and over again. You were so "put away" last year. I see nothing has changed.

*Fracking: The next bubble*
Fracking: The next bubble? - Salon.com

_&#8220;I&#8217;ve spent thousands of hours working through data and consulting and collaborating with very knowledgeable colleagues,&#8221; said Art Berman, an oil and gas geologist who heads Labyrinth Consulting, a Houston-based geological consulting firm. &#8220;Right now, everybody&#8217;s losing money. And the whole picture is highly tenuous.&#8221;

Berman, after digging into the true numbers of these shale gas plays a few years ago, was one of the first in the oil and gas industry to publicly question the shale gas boom narrative. What he found was exceedingly high production decline rates from the shale gas wells, which forced operators to maintain a furious drilling pace just to keep up with production targets._​
There is no shale revolution. Stop lying to people so that you and your cronies can get rich off the unwitting who buy your bubble-inflating propaganda.

STFU.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JiggsCasey said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol... Irish, ask him about decline rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why? It isn't as though you can discuss them intelligently. What happened, someone move your favorite rock?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought you'd punt to.
Click to expand...


Punt to? Sorry Jiggsy but you had your chance, you picked your favorite report, and 10 seconds later it became obvious that you did NOT read it, you didn't understand it, and couldn't parrot your way out of it becoming obvious to everyone.

The world peaked, remember? But we're all still here, the economy truddles along, your religious beliefs are generally in retreat, and you never did bring back any priests of that religion with functioning brain cells. So go troll a moron forum somewhere, try and find some converts there (although admittedly they might be to smart for you as well).



			
				Jiggs Casey said:
			
		

> Coward. ... I especially love the unfalsifiable claim regarding your business life. Clear sign of a bullshit artist at work, avoiding 3rd-party links we can all verify, and instead making boasts of how awesome he/she is on the job. LOL.



Coward? I am in Pittsburgh this evening, and for the next 3 days I will be wandering around the AAPG national convention. Get a copy of the technical program, my name is in there at least twice on talks.

AAPG Annual Convention & Exhibition - Pittsburgh 2013

What are the morons like you doing right now? Let me speculate...you AREN'T at the place where the geology disputing your religious beliefs is being demonstrated on a near hourly basis. 

When you can do more than parrot some religious talking points, let us know, I'll try and reserve a room and round up some geologists to listen to your sophomoric interpretation of why the world is running out of oil. After they all stop laughing, I'll buy the drinks so you can drown your embarrassment.

Now find that rock to hide under before you display another one of your "i'll trade you 3 for 2" moments, and set the 2nd grade math students all atwitter over your astounding poor intellectual capabilities.


----------



## American_Jihad

*Why Anti-Fracking Environmentalists Are Holding Back the U.S.*​
The real story on fracking, say scientists, is that the risks are small and the rewards immense.

John Stossel | March 13, 2013

...

Hollywood gave an Oscar to "Gasland," a documentary that suggests fracking will shove gas into some people's drinking water, so the water will burn. It's true that some water contains so much natural gas that you can light it.

But another documentary, "FrackNation," shows that gas got into plumbing long before fracking came. There's gas in the earth. That's why it's called "natural gas." Some gets into well water. Environmental officials investigated the flames shown in "Gasland" and concluded that the pollution had nothing to do with fracking.

"FrackNation" director Phelim McAleer tried to confront "Gasland" director Josh Fox about this, but Fox wouldn't answer his questions. Instead, he demanded to know whom McAleer works for. He also turned down my invitations to publicly debate fracking. Many activists don't like to answer questions that don't fit their narrative.

Even some homeowners who filed a lawsuit claiming that their water was poisoned by fracking weren't happy to learn that their water is safe. I'd think they would be delighted, but "FrackNation" shows a couple reacting with outrage when environmental officials test their water and find it clean.

...

Some won't be happy unless we go back to what we did before industrialization: burn lots of trees and die young.

Why Anti-Fracking Environmentalists Are Holding Back the U.S. - Reason.com


----------



## Mr. H.

I don't get it. The vast majority of scientists are Liberals, yet the vast majority of Liberals oppose fracking. 

Wacky bunch.


----------



## Mr. H.

If you want to address industrial risk, look no further than Agriculture. 
Openly polluting our air, land, and water... reaping massive profits, exporting hundreds of millions of metric tons of OUR food while we pay record prices for groceries. 

The worst part of it all? No one gives a flying fuck.


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - U.S. Oil Boom Scrambles Mideast Calculus

_Government projections show that in September, for the first time in almost two decades, the U.S. will produce more oil than it imports. Nor will that be a fluke; the trend is expected to continue, and domestic oil production is expected to outstrip imports by an increasingly wide margin throughout 2014. _

Far
Fucking
Out


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Oil, Gas Activity Boosts North Dakota, Texas Economies

_North Dakota experienced the largest increase in real gross domestic product (GDP) out of all the U.S. states in 2012 thanks to oil and gas exploration and production activity, the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) reported Thursday.

North Dakota's real GDP grew 13.4 percent last year, higher than the U.S. real GDP by state growth of 2.5 percent in 2012 and 1.6 percent increase recorded in 2011. The mining industry, which includes oil and gas, contributed 3.26 percentage points to the state's real GDP growth, BEA reported. _


----------



## Mr. H.

Gosh there's a lot of goop in the ground...

and it's being accessed with hydraulic fracturing. 

Shale oil, gas 'abundant' in the world, EIA says - Energy Ticker - MarketWatch

_Shale oil and gas are &#8220;abundant&#8221; around the globe, and the world has 10% more shale gas resources than the Energy Information Administration estimated just two years ago.

The new report, released Monday, took advantage of new geological research and well drilling results to paint a more complete picture of shale oil and gas outside the U.S. and Canada, the two only two countries that have been able to produce commercial quantities of both._


----------



## KissMy

If there is so much oil out there why is the price going up but consumption per capita going down?


----------



## Mr. H.

KissMy said:


> If there is so much oil out there why is the price going up but consumption per capita going down?



Is that a rhetorical question?


----------



## American_Jihad

KissMy said:


> If there is so much oil out there why is the price going up but consumption per capita going down?



It's obongos fault...


----------



## Mr. H.

With the phenomenal increase in onshore oil and gas production (thanks to hydraulic fracturing), the threat of hurricanes shutting down GOM production is less of a concern these days...

The Shale Boom Is Immunizing US Oil And Gas Production From Hurricanes - seattlepi.com

_In 1997, 26% of the nations natural gas was produced in the federal Gulf of Mexico. In 2012, that number was 6%.

The Gulf of Mexico's share of crude oil production has also declined, from 26% in 2007-11 to 19% in 2012._


----------



## Mr. H.

Fuck yeah...

U.S. tops global oil, gas production growth: BP Review - Energy Ticker - MarketWatch

_Oil and natural gas production rose faster in the United States last year* than anywhere in the world. It was also the biggest gain in oil production in the nation&#8217;s history*, according to an annual review by BP PLC released Wednesday._

Private enterprise, ingenuity, risk, and hard work.

Who needs that piss ant Obama?


----------



## Mr. H.

Far out... 

U.S. industrial sector goes for more natural gas - Energy Ticker - MarketWatch

_The use of natural gas by the industrial sector rose more than 3% in the first five months of the year compared with the same period last year, thanks to historically low natural-gas prices on the heels of heightened shale production.

Power utilities still take on more natural gas to fuel their plants than industries, but that has been changing after a sharp decline in 2008 and 2009 during the economic downturn, the Energy Information Administration said.

Industrial customers pay close to spot price since they buy large quantities of the fuel regularly._


----------



## KissMy

American_Jihad said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is so much oil out there why is the price going up but consumption per capita going down?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's obongos fault...
Click to expand...


It's been going on for 43 years!

You will pay more & get less unless you start getting energy from some other source. Every year you pay more & get less energy. Oil has failed to deliver more energy per citizen & has been in decline since 1970 & is declining faster since 2005.


----------



## KissMy

Mr. H. said:


> Far out...
> 
> U.S. industrial sector goes for more natural gas - Energy Ticker - MarketWatch
> 
> _The use of natural gas by the industrial sector rose more than 3% in the first five months of the year compared with the same period last year, thanks to historically low natural-gas prices on the heels of heightened shale production.
> 
> Power utilities still take on more natural gas to fuel their plants than industries, but that has been changing after a sharp decline in 2008 and 2009 during the economic downturn, the Energy Information Administration said.
> 
> Industrial customers pay close to spot price since they buy large quantities of the fuel regularly._



Obama loves the Natural Gas & hates the Coal.

Obama will use executive orders to tackle global warming  - "Obamas senior energy and climate adviser, Heather Zichal, said the Environmental Protection Agency was preparing to use its authority under the Clean Air Act to regulate heat-trapping pollution from coal-fired power plants.

The EPA has been working very hard on rules that focus specifically on greenhouse gases from the coal sector.""


----------



## Mr. H.

KissMy said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Far out...
> 
> U.S. industrial sector goes for more natural gas - Energy Ticker - MarketWatch
> 
> _The use of natural gas by the industrial sector rose more than 3% in the first five months of the year compared with the same period last year, thanks to historically low natural-gas prices on the heels of heightened shale production.
> 
> Power utilities still take on more natural gas to fuel their plants than industries, but that has been changing after a sharp decline in 2008 and 2009 during the economic downturn, the Energy Information Administration said.
> 
> Industrial customers pay close to spot price since they buy large quantities of the fuel regularly._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obama loves the Natural Gas & hates the Coal.
> 
> Obama will use executive orders to tackle global warming  - "Obamas senior energy and climate adviser, Heather Zichal, said the Environmental Protection Agency was preparing to use its authority under the Clean Air Act to regulate heat-trapping pollution from coal-fired power plants.
> 
> The EPA has been working very hard on rules that focus specifically on greenhouse gases from the coal sector.""
Click to expand...


Yup. Coal can be nasty, and coal can be "clean". The government should put more effort into promoting cleaner coal-combustion processes. It's doable.


----------



## Mr. H.

OPEC to lose market share in 2014 as rivals pump more | Reuters

(Reuters) - _OPEC's share of the world market will shrink in 2014 as rising supply of U.S. shale oil gives the exporter group little comfort from the fastest growth in world demand in four years._


----------



## Smilebong

Mr. H. said:


> Re: Gasland...
> 
> "...according to the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, which tested Markham's water in 2008, there were "no indications of oil & gas related impacts to water well." Instead the investigation found that the methane was "biogenic" in nature, meaning it was naturally occurring and that his water well was drilled into a natural gas pocket."
> 
> http://cogcc.state.co.us/library/GASLAND DOC.pdf
> 
> Earthquakes? Likely...
> 
> UK firm says shale fracking caused earthquakes | Reuters
> 
> However, there are over 1 million naturally occuring earthquakes each year.



Bazinga!!!


----------



## Mr. H.

It's spreading... and it all started right here, folks. 

Hell, the entire modern oil and gas industry was begun in the United States and exported throughout the world. 

We are the shit. 

RIGZONE - UK Energy Secretary: Shale Gas Has 'Huge Potential'

_The UK Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Ed Davey said that UK shale gas has "huge potential" at a gathering Wednesday afternoon of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Unconventional Oil and Gas in Westminster, London._


----------



## Mr. H.

Bravo! Hydraulic Fracturing... it's not just for breakfast anymore:

http://www.rigzone.com/news/article...013-07-16&utm_content=&utm_campaign=feature_3

North Dakota Oil, Gas Production Reach New Highs


----------



## chikenwing

Good for them


----------



## Mr. H.

FEAR THIS!

Should Saudi Arabia Fear North Dakota? One Man Says Yes

_Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, founder of Kingdom Holding and a multi-billionaire investor in News Corp, Time Warner and Citigroup, among other companies, has told Saudi Oil Minister Ali Al-Naimi that the desert kingdom is making a mistake not to worry about burgeoning U.S. oil and gas production. _


----------



## Mr. H.

This is what it's all about, Alfie...

Shale Explorers Outperforming International Oil Titans - Bloomberg

_Oil explorers focused on high-margin shale drilling from Texas to North Dakota are set to outperform Big Oil this year. 

EOG Resources Inc. (EOG), Pioneer Natural Resources Co. (PXD) and Continental Resources Inc. are poised to reap bigger returns for investors than energy titans 15 times their market values as they devote almost all their drilling capital to higher-margin, domestic crude wells, said Gianna Bern, founder of Brookshire Advisory and Research Inc. in Chicago. Houston-based EOG is estimated to more than triple profit in 2013 to $1.92 billion._ 


...and they said it couldn't be done.


----------



## Mr. H.

_"The shale industry has been a blessing to steel," said Hamman, citing reports of mills that reopened in Youngstown, Ohio, to support the Marcellus and Utica shale drilling boom. "The drilling companies have to get their steel from somewhere."_

Monroe County Steel Mill Planned - News, Sports, Jobs - The Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register

*Monroe County Steel Mill Planned*


----------



## Mr. H.

Panda Power Funds acquires Pennsylvania natgas-fired project | Reuters


Aug 22 (Reuters) - _Panda Power Funds will begin construction immediately on an 829-MW natural gas-fired power plant in Pennsylvania after acquiring the project from Moxie Energy and completing financing, Panda said on Thursday.

The Panda Liberty generating station will be built on a 33-acre site in Bradford County, Pennsylvania. Commercial operations are expected to begin by early 2016._


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Rising Oil, Gas Production Lowers US Energy Security Risk

_The United States experienced a reduction in 2012 in its energy security risk thanks to rising U.S. oil and natural gas production and continued environmental improvements, according to a new report.

The United States&#8217; energy security risk score stood at 95.3 in 2012, down from 102.0 in the previous year, the highest since 1970, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce&#8217;s institute for 21st Century Energy reported in its 2013 Index of U.S. Energy Security Risk._


----------



## Mr. H.

Energy boom a windfall for U.S. family income: IHS | Reuters

_Robust energy production will increase wages, cut energy and manufacturing costs, and add as much as $2,000 a year to each family's income by 2015, IHS said.

Last year, an average U.S. household earned $1,200 more because of the energy boom as oil and gas companies produced nearly 2 million barrels-per-day of oil, the report said.

The rush has added 2.1 million jobs to the U.S. economy in 2012, both directly and indirectly, and that number is expected to balloon to 3.3 million by 2020, a boon for an economy struggling with stubbornly high unemployment.

"This is a great story for jobs, for the tax base and now for the average household," said John Larson, a vice president of the firm that co-authored the report._


----------



## chikenwing

Mr. H. said:


> Panda Power Funds acquires Pennsylvania natgas-fired project | Reuters
> 
> 
> Aug 22 (Reuters) - _Panda Power Funds will begin construction immediately on an 829-MW natural gas-fired power plant in Pennsylvania after acquiring the project from Moxie Energy and completing financing, Panda said on Thursday.
> 
> The Panda Liberty generating station will be built on a 33-acre site in Bradford County, Pennsylvania. Commercial operations are expected to begin by early 2016._



The greens should applaud this ,yet they don't. there have been several old coal plants shuttered in the area in the last few years,the additional capacity,and use of a LOCAL CLEANER resource is outstanding.

This hasn't made the local news,and not surprising, Broome county NY just north of Bradford PA suffers from a not so objective media,,crossing into pa from new york one can see the economic impact very plainly.


----------



## Mr. H.

WOO HOO!

RIGZONE - Eagle Ford, Permian Basin on Track to Surpass 2 MMbopd in 2013

_Texas oil production from just two fields, the Eagle Ford shale and the Permian Basin, is likely to total well over 2 million barrels of oil per day (MMbopd) this year, if recent output trends continue, and could approach 2.5 MMbopd sometime in 2014, according to analysts._


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> Energy boom a windfall for U.S. family income: IHS | Reuters
> 
> _Robust energy production will increase wages, cut energy and manufacturing costs, and add as much as $2,000 a year to each family's income by 2015, IHS said.
> 
> Last year, an average U.S. household earned $1,200 more because of the energy boom as oil and gas companies produced nearly 2 million barrels-per-day of oil, the report said.
> 
> The rush has added 2.1 million jobs to the U.S. economy in 2012, both directly and indirectly, and that number is expected to balloon to 3.3 million by 2020, a boon for an economy struggling with stubbornly high unemployment.
> 
> "This is a great story for jobs, for the tax base and now for the average household," said John Larson, a vice president of the firm that co-authored the report._



And now for the flip side of that "great" story:

The Gas companies are ruthless, lying, thieving, cutthroats.  We have the wreck of the day, the detour of the day, the death of the day, the spill of the day.  
The reason for that is using workers from out of state instead of using the local workers *they promised* to hire. Texans aren't used to hills and turns in Ohio, W.V., and Pa.

Chesapeake Gas and Oil made a deal to buy *some* of a city's water for fracking, and now the townspeople turn their faucets on and not one drop comes out.  The gas company's response was a not so surprising, "tough shit."  City officials are now scrambling to try to get some of their water back.  They have been unsuccessful.

To keep from paying the people whose property they are destroying, the royalty checks they owe as per the contracts they signed, simply don't get sent for the gas and oil they are stealing!
 Instead the homeowners *get a bill* for removing or "gathering" the gas, or for "misc" charges unnamed, and if any royalty is left after that, the gas company sells the gas for pennies to a subsidiary that *they* own,  pay the landowner from *that *sale and then keep the profits for themselves when the subsidiary sells to market for the actual value of the gas.  The bilking has run into the *billions* so far.  And the only landowner that is getting anywhere in court is the government.

There is no windfall for the families that actually own the gas.  It is stolen from us and then sold to you at an inflated price.  It is a real nightmare.


----------



## Mr. H.

That's a lot of bad sounding stuff. You must have gotten it from somewhere, I assume.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Lawsuits are flooding the courts. And the lawyers are thrilled.  We pay them to rewrite the gas contracts, then we pay them to sue when the contracts are breached. It's is a real mess H.  
And it doesn't have to be.  Statoil of Norway reviews each contract they sign to keep from harming the landowners, and deducts nothing from the royalty checks.  Their partner Chesapeake, is as dishonest as Statoil is honest.  And Chesapeake is running the show in this tri state area.

I am all for this country and energy independence, but these weasels are just helping themselves to whatever they want, and daring the landowners to spend tens of thousands of dollars in court to try to stop them.  It is an everyday ongoing story here on the news and in the papers.  

I just picked up the farm and dairy paper from the feed store and there is page after page describing the "unfair share" Chesapeake is helping themselves to, and the inability to stop them in court. It is in the billions of dollars already that they have bilked us out of. And they're just getting started here!
farmanddairy.com. is one paper's web site.  I've never gone to the website, but you should be able to read about a lot of the problems there.  It's sad.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> And now for the flip side of that "great" story:
> 
> The Gas companies are ruthless, lying, thieving, cutthroats.  We have the wreck of the day, the detour of the day, the death of the day, the spill of the day.
> The reason for that is using workers from out of state instead of using the local workers *they promised* to hire. Texans aren't used to hills and turns in Ohio, W.V., and Pa.



I know of a company who hires 6 locals about every week. Why? Because that is the amount of time locals, looking for work, are CAPABLE of working. Turns out, working 12 on, 12 off is really really HARD to those raised by their mommys and daddys to wimp out at the first opportunity. I've seen some of these guys not last a single tower.

You want locals to be hired? Try raising some capable of working without becoming blubbering whiners who quit. God knows that 36" pipe wrench is heavy, OMG!! You mean I actually have to USE it!!  WWWHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Texans are familiar with oil field work, and when they show up for work it sure isn't because A) they can't drive the meager "hills" of Ohio, WV and PA or B) are whining babies about what work in the oil field means.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> To keep from paying the people whose property they are destroying, the royalty checks they owe as per the contracts they signed, simply don't get sent for the gas and oil they are stealing!
> Instead the homeowners *get a bill* for removing or "gathering" the gas, or for "misc" charges unnamed, and if any royalty is left after that, the gas company sells the gas for pennies to a subsidiary that *they* own,  pay the landowner from *that *sale and then keep the profits for themselves when the subsidiary sells to market for the actual value of the gas.



Don't like the terms of the lease? DON'T SIGN IT. This isn't hard Irish, it starts with READING, and understanding what the companies themselves are charged for transporting their gas to market. Don't want to participate in the energy extraction biz? Good for you...DON'T SIGN THE LEASE!!! 

While I understand that your argument basically consists of "Gee the locals are really stupid, them not understand leases and all" I have news....it isn't Chesapeake's fault that the local union dominated school systems in states like Pennsylvania raise mineral rights owners without the ability to think and understand.

Don't like eating your portion of transportation costs, JUST LIKE THE GAS COMPANIES PAY, fine. Ask for an override instead of a traditional royalty check. But you can't fix STUPID, and it isn't Chesapeake's job to correct what public education has done to the citizens of places like Pennsylvania. Not that WV is any better. Ohio...maybe not all them are ignorant, hard to say. Certainly I've met more than a few who qualify, but I've only worked the oil field in that state, so them being only slightly below average might be a personal bias.




			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> There is no windfall for the families that actually own the gas.  It is stolen from us and then sold to you at an inflated price.  It is a real nightmare.



No...it is the consequences of ignorance in a complex business which the "poor" landowners don't understand...they see that check for $5000/acre and lose control of their bowels, and senses. I recommend that critical thinking and analysis be taught in the public schools so that these folks don't let raw greed overwhelm them, and then bitch like schoolgirls when they discover that their date for prom really wasn't interested in their charming personality.

Sorry Ram,  but it isn't the oil and gas companies job to cure stupid on the part of the mineral rights owners, and all the other problems associated with proximity to Appalachia.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Your out of line, ignorant, and wrong.  Stupid has nothing to do with it. 
 We have qualified, ready to work, trained personnel, that have and do prefer hard work to losing their homes. This is blue collar territory. Pipe fitters, welders, mechanics, electricians, engineers, drillers, diggers, what ever you need.  Hard work isn't a problem for this area and never has been.  You get up at 3am to feed the livestock, and bring in a field of hay before you go to work building a house, and then come home and put up the livestock, feed them, bail more hay........... I don't even know you, but I know my husband.  As far as hard work is concerned, you'd never keep up. 

If your boys know how to drive, why is there a wreck du jour?  Drinkers?  
A wonderful family man and community leader was was our latest casualty,  run down after pulling off the road with engine trouble.  The big rigger was tired or "something", and strayed onto the side of road and crushed the man to death under the wheels.  Kudo's to your drivers, cus weuns just ain't learned how to not kill people when we drive yet. 

We have no problems with the terms of the leases, and gosh dern it, sum uf us kin axly read.   But just to make sure,  we have lawyers that have been dealing with these leases for a long while now and know what pitfalls to look for, double check, just in case we morons missed something.    

This isn't the first time we landowners have leased our land to gas companies, the copper industry, the coal industry.....  We get leases alright. Leases aren't the problem.  Liars are. Greedy thieves are.

Chesapeake dumping waste in secluded areas of our farms, because it is more convenient,  is a breach of the leases you think we can't comprehend. Paying for some water, as per contract, and then taking it all because they need it all, isn't a reading comprehension problem. It is a bathing problem. 

Gee you'd think we'd understand that if you don't want to be involved with the gas company nightmare, we WOULDN'T SIGN THE LEASE as you point out.   
You don't have to sign to be screwed!  Here's what you forgot to point out, that in those "hold out" cases, they sit at your boundary line and suck your gas and oil right out from underneath you anyway.   Do you need actual court cases of these little Chesapeake quirks? I be purdy shure I can perduce em for ya. The courts er filled wth em.  

How about those of us who depend on our own water sources on our own property,  for our livestock.  
Contract or not I'll be forced to walk away from my home and my property if and probably when they foul the creek or my water wells.  We may be rel dum right cheer in these har parts, but no one is stupid enough to buy property surrounded by poison water.  And no one here is evil enough to sell it that way.  What do you suggest big shot?  A remedial reading course for my livestock?  Then can they drink their water?

We see the, "we'll protect your wells, clean water is our goal, we will be responsible for........"in those contracts, but damn if I could find the, "tough shit, your on your own" clause anywhere on the pages. That quirky little addition comes *after* the water is unusable.  

What do you think a contract that specifies  that any and all lumber that is cut or removed from a property by the grantee without the expressed written consent of the grantor, that the grantee shall reimburse the grantor at fair market value interprets as?  
Do you really think that means,  "Tough shit, we'll cut whatever we want and pile your English Walnut trees up on the side of your drive way?"  

Same thing with the fence provisions we made sure to include in the agreement.  Splain this for me, me being so slow and all:
'Grantee will repair all gates and fences they remove or damage.  All fences and gates replaced must be of equal or greater quality'.  I never thought that meant, "tough shit about your cow that someone just plowed into and is now suing you, cause we're dozing every fence we consider an obstacle down, and leaving them down".  

So now, you arrogant know it all, riddle me this, how is it that we can read Statoil contracts with clarity and don't encounter these Chesapeake pitfalls in the areas Statoil is leasing?
How cum us dumb asses get the royalty checks* agreed upon* with the Norwegian company?  They gather also but consider the process part of *their* cost of doing business, *not* the landowners. As well they should.  
*No where* in Chesapeake *contracts* do they shift that responsibility onto the landowner. * Cus ifen they did we mental midgets wouldn't sign up.  * 

It's a little trick they pull down the road, *even though *we idjots have the foresight  to make provisions in the contracts we *do* sign that the grantee expenses are not to be transferred to the grantor.  
It's that invisible "tough shit" clause that has the courts tied up and the lawyers giddy.

And if you think "Appalachia" mentality is the problem, (you asshole) then explain the same lawsuits in every state Chesapeake is involved?  Our illiterate stupid government has recouped over 4 billion they were entitled to but defrauded out of.  And they only reason is because the Dept. of the Interior can audit them and get the proof they need in court.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Your out of line, ignorant, and wrong.  Stupid has nothing to do with it.



Out of line, maybe, depending on how dainty you were raised. But I am paid to keep tabs on various aspects of the oil and gas industry, and while I am certainly on occasion wrong, those of us who have done this for a living get fired for being wrong on this area, and I've never been fired from a job yet.  As far as how oil and gas leases work, or on how the locals can't be counted on to do the same, I have experience on the ground in both the Marcellus and Utica plays.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> We have qualified, ready to work, trained personnel, that have and do prefer hard work to losing their homes.



Maybe. I know of 6 hired just last month, some of whom didn't last the shift. Young, strapping men, asked to do no more in the oil field than I did as a young college student.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> This is blue collar territory. Pipe fitters, welders, mechanics, electricians, engineers, drillers, diggers, what ever you need.  Hard work isn't a problem for this area and never has been.



Then those should show up at new job positions rather than the most recent 6 I mentioned. And the oil field isn't union coal mining, or mechanicing, or welding. It is OIL FIELD. The rig doesn't stop because some union worker needs to take a piss, there aren't union pipe fitters who can't be bothered to also do something else to get the job done, when you work the rigs, you do what it takes to get the job done. Union mentalities in the states in question have never appeared to understand this.

Texans do.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> You get up at 3am to feed the livestock, and bring in a field of hay before you go to work building a house, and then come home and put up the livestock, feed them, bail more hay........... I don't even know you, but I know my husband.  As far as hard work is concerned, you'd never keep up.



The livestock don't blow up and kill you and your friends. They don't produce enough poison gas to kill everyone on the rig in 10 seconds or less if you can't get to the scube gear. They don't usually fall on your head from  distance of 30 yards and weigh 10 tons when they do. If you drop one on your foot, it doesn't crush every bone in it.

Livestock....please....give me a break...this is OIL FIELD. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> We have no problems with the terms of the leases, and gosh dern it, sum uf us kin axly read.   But just to make sure,  we have lawyers that have been dealing with these leases for a long while now and know what pitfalls to look for, double check, just in case we morons missed something.



THEN STOP WHINING WHEN THE TERMS OF THE LEASE ARE MET!!!



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> This isn't the first time we landowners have leased our land to gas companies, the copper industry, the coal industry.....  We get leases alright. Leases aren't the problem.  Liars are. Greedy thieves are.



That is exactly what I've seen people claim for 30 years....and the ones doing it...are the ones who didn't read the lease!!



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> You don't have to sign to be screwed!  Here's what you forgot to point out, that in those "hold out" cases, they sit at your boundary line and suck your gas and oil right out from underneath you anyway.   Do you need actual court cases of these little Chesapeake quirks? I be purdy shure I can perduce em for ya. The courts er filled wth em.



It is called Right of Capture. Don't like the laws in your county/state/country? Vote for other ones! This isn't HARD Irish. If you don't like the rules you live under in the US, or Pennsylvania or Ohio or New York, MOVE! 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Contract or not I'll be forced to walk away from my home and my property if and probably when they foul the creek or my water wells.  We may be rel dum right cheer in these har parts, but no one is stupid enough to buy property surrounded by poison water.  And no one here is evil enough to sell it that way.  What do you suggest big shot?  A remedial reading course for my livestock?  Then can they drink their water?



Fortunately for you, fracking fouls neither water wells nor fresh water aquifers without causing a condition known and understood by state regulators, and which companies are required to fix. So you are safe on this one.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> What do you think a contract that specifies  that any and all lumber that is cut or removed from a property by the grantee without the expressed written consent of the grantor, that the grantee shall reimburse the grantor at fair market value interprets as?
> Do you really think that means,  "Tough shit, we'll cut whatever we want and pile your English Walnut trees up on the side of your drive way?"



Depends on the other clauses in the lease now doesn't it? Do they reserve the right to lay pipe, gathering systems, and anything else they might need during the course of mineral extraction? Want to bet they do, and how I know this without even seeing your lease? Because they ALL have it, the company isn't about to hamstrung in their operations by the locals who know nothing to begin with, can't work hard enough to even join in on the jobs side, and aren't educated well enough to understand the right of capture nor what "fair market value" might be for trees! They are trees! 

Fortunately for you, you can hire one of those stupid attorneys to sue for termination of the lease under the particular provision you have a beef about, under the laws of the land you live in, and then be happy once the local judge figures out what part of the lease you and lawyer didn't understand in the first place, and signed willingly in advance of all this happening.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> So now, you arrogant know it all, riddle me this, how is it that we can read Statoil contracts with clarity and don't encounter these Chesapeake pitfalls in the areas Statoil is leasing?



Statoil contracts aren't any different than Chesapeake contracts. And if you didn't want to lease to one, versus the other, you can also put that in the lease you apparently signed...what...those smart lawyers didn't mention this particular modification to you? Imagine that...and then you want to blame the companies versus the ignorance of you, the local workers who can't hold their own for a week of solid work, and your really really really smart lawyers?




			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> It's that invisible "tough shit" clause that has the courts tied up and the lawyers giddy.



Perhaps now you see the problem. You expected those lawyers to 'splain all this to you honestly, taking your money, and then taking Chesapeakes to defend their rights under the same lease? That really is evidence of how dumbass the locals are, pretending to trust the lawyers not to switch sides later in the game.




			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> And if you think "Appalachia" mentality is the problem, (you asshole) then explain the same lawsuits in every state Chesapeake is involved?



I was raised in Appalachia, I know damn well what the mentality is. As far as "same" lawsuits, I seriously doubt Chesapeake has near the hard on for Walnut tree's that you make out.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Our illiterate stupid government has recouped over 4 billion they were entitled to but defrauded out of.  And they only reason is because the Dept. of the Interior can audit them and get the proof they need in court.



Please...I've worked for and with the Department of Interior as well, and they do their homework up front, and don't have their trees getting torn up because they specify the rules in advance, they think it through, and more importantly, most of their land isn't in Appalachia. You want to be treated like the DOI, then do your homework like the DOI, and do what the DOI does when the leases are broken, you take everyone to court and get it settled. 

So stop whining and get your case in front of a judge and demand what you think the lease guarantees you. I hope you win, certainly I've been involved in lawsuits on the oil company side that were lost. Assert yourself and go get that money for your walnut trees!


----------



## The Irish Ram

We do our homework and it exposes people just like you, that pretend the evils of big gas and oil companies don't exist. 
The  work our Gov. does is by way of after the fact audits, and has *nothing* to do with homework, and everything to do with fraud.  Auditing gives the Gov. access to the machinations behind the curtain, that we have to sue to discover. 
Specifying the rules in advance is what we all do.  Suing them for breaching the contracts is what we are all doing *and that includes the Gov. * 
If specifying is all we need to do and the Gov. does it's homework before and not after, why are they standing in court right beside us?  So much for placing the blame on our ignorance and lack of homework.

 Landowners don't have that audit option.  So when a royalty check comes and it says, "sorry we took your money" it costs tens of thousands of dollars for *us *to find out what misc. is referring to *this time*.  You can't homework "misc".  until it shows up in the mail because misc rights are nowhere to be found in the contracts.  They have no misc. rights under the contracts we submit and they sign.  We covered that *the last time* they drilled through here.  Buying our gas isn't new for them or us.  Raping is new.  

Ahh, the old, _ Right to Capture_.  It's actual name is theft.  We say, "no thanks to your contract, you can't have my oil and gas", and they say, "tough shit, we're entitled.  We take what we want".
If I buy the house next to yours, and your garage is next to my property, according to you I have the right to your garage simply because of it's proximity.  No lease or contract required!

They said right to capture to Marion Stone, they said it to Brian Corwin in Brook County, W.Va.  Did you live there too?  
Chesapeake stole  217 acres worth of their gas, then petitioned the court to drop the landowners suit because the "rule of capture" applied.  The judge didn't call it that.  He called it trespass, drainage and a benefit Chesapeake wasn't untitled to.  Finally the little guy that owns all the renewable energy you covet, is being heard and our "rights" upheld.
A jury has ordered Chesapeake to pay 404 mil in damages for cheating leaseholders in W.Va.
Shell was ordered to pay 66 mil to landowners for hiding prolific wells and intentionally misleading landowners.  It appears that stupidity is not the problem.  Shady business practices seem to be the problem.  How is lying about prolific wells in order to bilk the owner of the gas out of his royalty checks a lack of homework?  Do they have a "right to hide rule" too? 
We have no data available to us to surmise what a well might produce before it's drilled.  For that we *must *rely on  good faith, or sue them for the figures. 
Right to capture my a**.  
Are you honestly, < pun intended, trying to convince us that if Chesapeake gives it a name other than theft that it somehow becomes something other than theft?  
You can call it gimme, gimme gimme, if you want  but that doesn't change the fact that it's take take takie of something that they don't own and haven't paid for and have absolutely no "right" to. 

Chesapeake has a hard on for money, and if trees *that we specified are not to be removed* are in their way, they use a little known rule of theirs called  "right to remove, anyway".  < Also *finally *not boding well for them in court.  

And you are wrong again.  Livestock, and farms and people's front yards are what we are talking about here.  NOT OIL FIELDS. 
 Letting our animals out of our fences is a liability to *us* if someone is harmed by a bull or has an accident on the road because of a loose horse.  And homework dictated we cover that problem beforehand.  Unfortunately, homework can't make big business  comply.

After destroying a Rod and Gun club in the next county over, with a little known, "we need to plow right through your business to get to our our business, rule"  Chessy was stopped dead in their tracks. 

 When they destroyed Bill Blakley's well on property not under contract by Bill, they did the usual.  They delivered water to him and his family for a year and then said, "tough shit, we are tired of giving you clean water.  Pay for a new well if you want water".  Old Bill didn't need to do homework.  He opted out of the whole mess from the git go.  Now he has a home with poison water, a hearty "tough shit".  And a lawyer's bill.   Explain to me like I'm 5, the legalities of his situation.  And why he should spend thousands of dollars for justice and a new well?

The point is it shouldn't be necessary for us to have to sue Chesapeake for them to understand that they too, *not just us*,  have to abide by the rules of the contracts *they *sign.  
Maybe you should school them instead of Appalachia, Pa, Ala, Co. Alabama, N. Dakota N.Y., W.V. and others being raped across the country, because the ones getting smarter are our judges. Finally and thank God.

And If you think that you, or anyone else is entitled to what I own, come get some boy, and see where it gets you.  That threat has become our "right to capture", thieves, trespassers, and corrupt liars. Unfortunate, but necessary.
And if you were as smart as you think you are, you wouldn't be sucking in all that Denver smog.  Cripple Creek's air is fresh and clean, and we have gold.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> We do our homework and it exposes people just like you, that pretend the evils of big gas and oil companies don't exist.



I didn't say evil doesn't exist, I said that the easiest solution in the WORLD, and one completely available to the mineral owner, is to NOT...SIGN...THE...LEASE!!!

Everything after that is buyers remorse, the consequences of your decision, and what your greed is going to cost you...both good and bad. All you had to do, the EASIEST thing in the world, was REFUSE to put your name on that paper. Game over. Done deal.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Auditing gives the Gov. access to the machinations behind the curtain, that we have to sue to discover.



Easy solution. You shouldn't have signed the lease.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Specifying the rules in advance is what we all do.  Suing them for breaching the contracts is what we are all doing *and that includes the Gov. *



Bummer. You shouldn't have signed the lease.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> If specifying is all we need to do and the Gov. does it's homework before and not after, why are they standing in court right beside us?  So much for placing the blame on our ignorance and lack of homework.



You are ignorant. Because if you weren't expecting both the good, and bad, of mineral extraction, you would have known TO NOT SIGN THE LEASE.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> They have no misc. rights under the contracts we submit and they sign.  We covered that *the last time* they drilled through here.  Buying our gas isn't new for them or us.  Raping is new.



Raping is illegal, and gives you a cause of action. Everything else you said means you really shouldn't have signed the lease.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> They said right to capture to Marion Stone, they said it to Brian Corwin in Brook County, W.Va.  Did you live there too?



Nope. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Chesapeake stole  217 acres worth of their gas, then petitioned the court to drop the landowners suit because the "rule of capture" applied.  The judge didn't call it that.  He called it trespass, drainage and a benefit Chesapeake wasn't untitled to.  Finally the little guy that owns all the renewable energy you covet, is being heard and our "rights" upheld.



Sounds like the judge did exactly what judges are supposed to do. Good for him. So why are you whining about your recourse under the law? You took the money, don't like the deal you signed? Shouldn't have signed it, and if you did and are getting ripped off, sue. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> A jury has ordered Chesapeake to pay 404 mil in damages for cheating leaseholders in W.Va.
> Shell was ordered to pay 66 mil to landowners for hiding prolific wells and intentionally misleading landowners.



Excellent! I recommend you get your $100 for walnut trees! 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> How is lying about prolific wells in order to bilk the owner of the gas out of his royalty checks a lack of homework?  Do they have a "right to hide rule" too?



Of course not. They have the rights you gave them under the lease. Don't like paying the same kinds of transportation costs the companies do? Sure them. Throw in your walnut trees to boot! 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> We have no data available to us to surmise what a well might produce before it's drilled.  For that we *must *rely on  good faith, or sue them for the figures.
> Right to capture my a**.



Sue! Local judges are handing out millions! Your walnut trees must be worth at least that!



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Are you honestly, < pun intended, trying to convince us that if Chesapeake gives it a name other than theft that it somehow becomes something other than theft?



I don't have a clue what Chesapeake calls their field operations. Never ran field operations for Chesapeake, I did it for operators who have been around much longer. But you certainly don't get to pin one operators actions on all of them. If you didn't like signing with Chesapeake, you should have said to in your lease. If you signed the lease and didn't make that exclusion, who exactly is stupid? Them for taking full advantage of the rights you gave them, or you for not hiring the right smart lawyer and being suckered in by greed to not do the one, fail safe thing you could have done?



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> After destroying a Rod and Gun club in the next county over, with a little known, "we need to plow right through your business to get to our our business, rule"  Chessy was stopped dead in their tracks.



Good for them who vanquished Chesapeake! With all these David versus Goliath victories, what in the hell are YOU worried about? Stop bitching! Sue for the trees! The judge will undoubtedly shower you with cash!!!



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> When they destroyed Bill Blakley's well on property not under contract by Bill, they did the usual.  They delivered water to him and his family for a year and then said, "tough shit, we are tired of giving you clean water.  Pay for a new well if you want water".  Old Bill didn't need to do homework.  He opted out of the whole mess from the git go.  Now he has a home with poison water, a hearty "tough shit".  And a lawyer's bill.   Explain to me like I'm 5, the legalities of his situation.  And why he should spend thousands of dollars for justice and a new well?



I don't have a clue about Old Bill's situation. And apparently I do have to explain to you like you are five....who is the fool, those utilizing the lease to the full extent of the law, or the moron who signed it in the first place allowing such shenanigans to happen?

Don't sign the lease! Rush out and tell old Bill before he does it again!



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> The point is it shouldn't be necessary for us to have to sue Chesapeake for them to understand that they too, *not just us*,  have to abide by the rules of the contracts *they *sign.



YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SIGNED THE LEASE!! What part of YOUR responsibility in this mess do you not understand? If you don't want to buy a car, you don't sign the contract. Don't want a mortgage? Don't sign the contract! Don't want to get married! DON'T APPLY FOR THE LICENSE!!

This isn't hard Irish, it simply requires you have HALF the brains you claim to have. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> And If you think that you, or anyone else is entitled to what I own, come get some boy, and see where it gets you.



I'm not entitled to anything you own. Unless you sign a contract with me. So the solution is...again...you never should have been so STUPID as to sign the lease. But the greed, it must have been powerful, eh Irish? That check, the whispers of your neighbors over the riches, ah yes, the Dark Side was STRONG that day you made your Faustian bargain, wasn't it?

And now you see what mineral extraction means, the walnut trees are down, the check has been cashed, the money spent on , and your soul...your soul has been sold. 

Your made your bed Irish. Now lie in it, and stop demonstrating instead exactly those characteristics of Appalachia I fled upon graduation from high school. Unions for protection from poor work performance, farming as something other than a life sentence for those without 3 neurons firing in the correct order, lust for one's cousins, and a history notable primarily for illegal whiskey?



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> That threat has become our "right to capture", thieves, trespassers, and corrupt liars. Unfortunate, but necessary.
> And if you were as smart as you think you are, you wouldn't be sucking in all that Denver smog.  Cripple Creek's air is fresh and clean, and we have gold.



What did you sell your soul for Irish? Manhattan went for some beads and whiskey and whatnot, what was your soul, and mineral rights, worth? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds? 

You made your bed. Now lie in it. Enjoy your gains, and enjoy the consequences. Because for all your whining and moaning, all you had to do was be as smart and well informed as you claim to be and you would have known the answer to your problem before it ever started.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Oh Dummy, my soul is intact.  
You are assuming I signed a lease.  And again, you are wrong. Those catastrophes are happening around me, not to me.  My contract is sitting on my lawyer's desk.  Chesapeake hasn't signed any leases for over a year, and yet they call me every other week with, "What's it going to take."   They are up to something they haven't in good faith, "shared" with us.  Probably a misc. something or other. lol.
So you can stick your smug assumption.  There is a reason why they want this property and my neighbor is scared to death.  Out of his 350 acres, he set the acres around his home and hay fields apart, with no gas co. access what so ever.  I think I know why my land is so important, and if I sign, and my neighbor's lawyer missed one specific little sentence in his lease, they may be able to plow right through his property.  

I decided to sign awhile ago and my contract was on it's way out the lawyer's door before I changed my mind.   
I keep telling the gas company when they call that I'd pay them that much to stay out of my front yard, and John laughs and says he'll check in with me in a few weeks.  We are talking about a lot of money.  But I'd rather stay put and watch my ducks playing in the creek, the deer that were born in the pasture and my horse running through the water splashing as she goes, than watch a gas truck go by.  It's why I live in the middle of nowhere, and my Cripple Creek windfall makes that possible, so I don't have to sell my soul to anyone.   But they are up to something or they wouldn't keep calling. 

So what part of NO LEASE SIGNED, don't you get?  They already have permission to *capture* on leased land.  Right to capture is  a stunt used in court against those WHO DON"T SIGN LEASES AND ARE ROBBED ANYWAY.  
Old Bill DIDN'T SIGN ANY LEASE.  HE HAS NO WATER ANYWAY. 

But you see I have 2 problems.  
I'm surrounded.  If I don't SIGN THE LEASE RGR,  they will sit at my other neighbors and suck MY GAS right out from under me.  They'll call it the right to capture, when I'm forced to sue them for benefits they are not entitled to.  On my dime by the way, EVEN THOUGH I DIDN"T SIGN THE LEASE RGR.

So, how smart am I to turn down the money and lose my gas anyway, just as if I had SIGNED THE LEASE? 

Problem 2.  One drilling site is *way* up on the top of the hill behind my house on someone else's property.  My well is directly beneath the site at the bottom of the hill, on my property.  What do you think the chances are that my well isn't going to make it?  Nil? Cause I'm pretty sure of it.  

And they don't have to be on my property to destroy the creek.  They can do that around the bend, and make my property worthless.  This creek was dead for 10 years after the copper mine 15 miles away leaked into it.  

So oh smart one, do I take their money and move from my home, *before* they destroy it, or do I walk away with nothing but a bill from my lawyer when they do?  

Oh look there's you shaking hands with your boss.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Oh Dummy, my soul is intact.
> You are assuming I signed a lease.  And again, you are wrong. Those catastrophes are happening around me, not to me.  My contract is sitting on my lawyer's desk.  Chesapeake hasn't signed any leases for over a year, and yet they call me every other week with, "What's it going to take."   They are up to something they haven't in good faith, "shared" with us.  Probably a misc. something or other. lol.



Then Irish, you are SAVED!!!!! Keep your soul, fight the good fight, fend off interlopers on your property at gunpoint, let those white devils keep their whiskey and beads, and be proud!!!

But I am forced to ask, what in the hell is all the WHINING about if you haven't signed yet? Not everyone is going to have your high moral standards, and that statement includes both your neighbors and the people who you sign a lease with. 

Sounds like you still have the opportunity in front of you to do EXACTLY what you need to do. Which means whining and bitching about it is just wasted effort. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> So you can stick your smug assumption.  There is a reason why they want this property and my neighbor is scared to death.  Out of his 350 acres, he set the acres around his home and hay fields apart, with no gas co. access what so ever.  I think I know why my land is so important, and if I sign, and my neighbor's lawyer missed one specific little sentence in his lease, they may be able to plow right through his property.



You are not your neighbor's keeper. Don't sign the lease. Be the hero!! And for Christ's sake, stop WHINING about it already.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> We are talking about a lot of money.



For YOU maybe. If you thought the gas was worth all that much, you can always go drill it yourself. But you certainly don't get to whine ever again AFTER you sign the lease, knowing what you already know. 

Read it carefully Irish, there are usually little beauties in there like this one: Once upon a time I got into a pissing contest with a landowner. My response was to do a 360 day pressure buildup test of the well, allowing no domestic gas to be produced for the landowners use, nor gas volumes to be sold into the pipeline. Guess what? I'll bet your lease doesn't preclude that kind of behavior, because you have ZERO ability to change company operations at the well level. The company, unlike the landowner, can afford to shut in a well for a majority of the year, the gas isn't going anywhere, but for the landowner, the sudden loss in royalty income combined with no free gas for the house can be devastating.

Want to bet your inability to stop this kind of behavior isn't included in your lease? Tread carefully Irish, you and your lawyer are most likely exactly the kind of rubes remaining in Appalachia after those with brains and ambition fled. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> So what part of NO LEASE SIGNED, don't you get?  They already have permission to *capture* on leased land.  Right to capture is  a stunt used in court against those WHO DON"T SIGN LEASES AND ARE ROBBED ANYWAY.
> Old Bill DIDN'T SIGN ANY LEASE.  HE HAS NO WATER ANYWAY.



So what? I don't care about Old Bill any more than I do about you whining about a legal concept which probably predates the foundation of America. Don't like it, move to Somalia, see how well your holier than thou attitude plays with those locals.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> I'm surrounded.  If I don't SIGN THE LEASE RGR,  they will sit at my other neighbors and suck MY GAS right out from under me.



Depends on the amount of acres you have. A reasonable Marcellus well can be counted on to drain some 100-200 acres around the well bore. If the gas companies drilled wells parallel to your property line on all 4 sides, they would certainly be pulling gas from your pore space, but the question is, how much? If Old Bill has you covered from one side, you are likely to retain a nice amount of original reservoir pressure towards that side of the property, even if the companies drill close by your line on all 3 other sides. Which means your property would still have gas under it, and still have value. But if they can get to all 4 sides, and you have a small acreage position, then your solution would be to drill your own well and produce the gas, just as you are allowed to shoot deer on your property and turn it into hamburger patties. But once that deer runs off somewhere else, well, you can't blame your neighbor for doing the same.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Problem 2.  One drilling site is *way* up on the top of the hill behind my house on someone else's property.  My well is directly beneath the site at the bottom of the hill, on my property.  What do you think the chances are that my well isn't going to make it?  Nil? Cause I'm pretty sure of it.



What well? It is unlikely you know any more about reservoir dynamics than you do the ability of an oil and gas company to exercise the full rights afforded them under the lease you haven't signed yet. Are you talking about water wells which currently exist? Might exist in the future? Your potential future gas well? The beauty of drilling into a resource play is the wells nearly all make gas, unless you live on the edge of the geologic formation. Some are certainly better than others, and the first wells in tend to make more than those which follow.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> And they don't have to be on my property to destroy the creek.  They can do that around the bend, and make my property worthless.  This creek was dead for 10 years after the copper mine 15 miles away leaked into it.



Sounds like picking property downstream from a copper mine is a bad move. I would recommend not doing it again. Fortunately for you, polluting surface and aquifer water supplies is what half of the wells steel and cement is designed to prevent. And surface water discharges are pretty heavily watched by the state, and they can become cranky on your behalf if the company pollutes local streams and whatnot. Fortunately, 60+ years of fracking now and sure, things do occasionally happen, but not very often. I've only blown up one well while fracking in my career, and none of the water made it to the local stream.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> So oh smart one, do I take their money and move from my home, *before* they destroy it, or do I walk away with nothing but a bill from my lawyer when they do?
> 
> Oh look there's you shaking hands with your boss.



Sounds like you have a decision to make. My decision in your stead is easy....take the money, turn the place into a summer vacation spot and move the hell out of Appalachia. That is also the answer if someone doesn't hand you a nice sized windfall as well.


----------



## The Irish Ram

I may or may not be saved.  You're still an idiot regardless of which choice I make.

You just jump to all kinds of assumptions in trying to extol the wonders of natural gas theft and greed. 
Like me picking  property down stream from a copper mine.  Look at all the time you have wasted drawing your own conclusions, then offering up your own stupid suggestions.

It was my Dad that refused to buy a cabin out here because a copper mine had fouled the creek, many years ago dummy.  It stayed fouled for years after the company was forced to cap the well.  Fast forward to 1990, when the creek was clear again, and the bass were jumping, and the mining was long since concluded, and I bought my land.  
 We are all hero's here.  We are fighting to keep the creek clear and the bass jumping, and our drinking water clean, *as well as* sharing our gas and oil with the rest of the country. 

Contrary to your beads and selling my soul bullshit, Greed is a gas co. issue, not ours.  We know what your boss is capable of, and the repercussions of the lies they use.  We've heard, "steel and cement, and we'll be responsible for any damage", before.  We are hearing it again now. 
The ones that sign your checks used to be able to lie with impunity and buy off the judges.  Unbridled greed has ended that practice.  Even the judges can't overlook their carnage now.

Old  Bill heard, "we'll be responsible" also, when they blew out his water well, and has poison water *anyway*.  And you and your track record are no where to be found!!!  Be a champ fracker, and tell your partners to dig Bill a new well.  And hurry up, He's been holding his breath for over a year now, waiting for your bosses to do the right thing. 

*Maybe Big gas can't afford to dig Bill a new well*.  My suggestion in their stead is to take some of the profits from the wells they tried to hide from the landowners, and pay for a new water well for Bill.  
Your boss thinks we are asking too much.  They have *your* attitude.  Bill's water is Bill's problem, his gas is our goal. We don't need no stinking badge. Their solution? > NO LEASE SIGNED,  NO LEASE NECESSARY.  Sue us Old Bill, or drink the water we left you with.

Their lying bullshit allowed you to put food on your table.  Your narcissistic concern stops there.   
We have other concerns, the environment being one.  Being poisoned for another, just like the woman in Rifle who was told her water was safe to drink now.........  

So true to form, you are wrong yet again.  My decision is * not * an easy one.  Your decision is mute.  Fracking is your agenda.  My gas and oil for free is your goal.  
Being born and raised here, this town was built on a portion of my 12 great-grandfather's farm in the 1700's.  I was educated in the schools my ancestors built.  Worship in the church my ancestors built.  My friends and family are *here*.  The elderly ones rely on my help.  In fact, I moved BACK here from Cripple when my dad became ill.  
*You can't make flippant decisions in my stead*, because you lack understanding.  FRACK FRACK and put clothes on my back, is your only concern.  You shook hands with the devil, not I.  

A summer vacation spot.  lol.  
For rent, lovely secluded vacation spot.  No trees, dead creek, ear plugs needed due to blasting.  Poison water, so no pets allowed.  Comes highly recommended by RGR Mortis and co..... 

Your, "I blew up a well, and shit happens" is little comfort to the "heroes" trying to make sure your shit doesn't happen here.  Farther north 2 sites have blown up already, killing several.  Forgive me if I don't buy believe your stellar record.  

Stick to putting your hard hat on that hard head of yours, and do what Satan tells you.  Leave the heroism to those of  who aren't as greedy as you are, and care about this land.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> I may or may not be saved.  You're still an idiot regardless of which choice I make.



I am paid to know more than you, combined with everyone you know, and everyone you can afford to hire, in this particular regard. If I get called as the expert witness against your point of view, odds are you are about to have a very bad day. By the time I was 30 I was already fighting 100 million dollar lawsuits involving bankrupt companies larger than Chesapeake is now. 

But fortunately for you, I am no longer in the expert witnessing game. So good news for Irish Ram and whatever nonsense you are being sold by your neighbors, your lawyer, the companies, your local goobermint, or whatever else you think protects you from the reality of the world.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> We are fighting to keep the creek clear and the bass jumping, and our drinking water clean, *as well as* sharing our gas and oil with the rest of the country.



So sign the lease already and stop whining about what MIGHT happen! Fight for everything you'd like, and don't for a second think that you have protected yourself from all the things the company is permitted to do in the lease you may sign.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Contrary to your beads and selling my soul bullshit, Greed is a gas co. issue, not ours.  We know what your boss is capable of, and the repercussions of the lies they use.  We've heard, "steel and cement, and we'll be responsible for any damage", before.  We are hearing it again now.



The truth can be inconvenient, if you are a true believer, I understand. I worked with Pennsylvania EPA a few years back on just these types of issues. The state was in need of independent experts...and they didn't call you, your lawyer, your neighbors or Chesapeake. Your inability to comprehend even the basics of how these things happen is exactly why positions like mine exist. I sometimes do public presentations (rarely on this topic however), and if I were to do one on this topic I would expect to be attacked by both the companies AND the landowners. Those of us who are expected to analyze and report the facts independently often cause this type of reaction.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> *Maybe Big gas can't afford to dig Bill a new well*.  My suggestion in their stead is to take some of the profits from the wells they tried to hide from the landowners, and pay for a new water well for Bill.



You have enumerated judges who fix exactly these kinds of things. Have them fix it. While I might be called in to solve the technical issues on events like this, it sounds like you already know how to fix it...harangue Bill with your knowledge and let him know what to do, you being so educated in these matters.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> You shook hands with the devil, not I.



Now Irish, what I do doesn't require me to shake anyone's hands.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nor does mine.  Your pic to suggest I had was out of line. 
 Nothing you say is of any value.  You have no idea what's going on here, and have made that clear.  And what you say is so bias it's not worth reading.   The last sentence of your post is all I read so that's all I'm replying to.   Your opinions are worthless and I doubt that anyone reading this is going to believe I made up any of the illegal practices the gas companies are trying to get away with here. Where you're not and I am.
Big gas and oil lie cheat and steal.  We all pretty much know that already.  That they put the food that's on your table is reason enough to take what you say with a grain of salt Mr. I blew a well and shit happens.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Nor does mine.  Your pic to suggest I had was out of line.



You are correct. I apologize for assuming you had already made your deal with the devil and were just whining about the consequences your greed had led you to. I hereby offer this as a change to reflect your complaining in advance of signing the lease.








			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Nothing you say is of any value.



To those behaving in the way demonstrated above, you are correct. But I can assure you I make a reasonable living understanding both sides of the issue and explaining it to the adults.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Big gas and oil lie cheat and steal.



Your belief system is not in question. Matter of fact, you have made it quite clear it is cemented into place, and will remain that way regardless of the facts of the matter.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> We all pretty much know that already.  That they put the food that's on your table is reason enough to take what you say with a grain of salt Mr. I blew a well and shit happens.



While I am more than a little amused by your lack of understanding of the basic jargon of the oil field, I have no doubt that someone going on as long, loudly and incoherently as you have could undoubtedly "blow" a well. While some men might find that ability and mental image attractive, the character which accompanies that ability would undoubtedly take more than a little lead out of the average guy's pencil, but none of this will dampen the chuckling over those who don't even know the words necessary to make their point, instead choosing to leave a lasting impression of a different kind.


----------



## American_Jihad

*Why Anti-Fracking Environmentalists Are Holding Back the U.S.*

The real story on fracking, say scientists, is that the risks are small and the rewards immense.


John Stossel | March 13, 2013

Celebrities are now upset about fracking, the injection of chemicals into the ground to crack rocks to release oil and gas. With everyone saying they want alternatives to foreign oil, I'd think celebrities would love fracking.

I'd be wrong. Lady Gaga, Yoko Ono and their group, Artists Against Fracking, don't feel the love. Yoko sang, "Don't frack me!" on TV.

Stopping fracking is the latest cause of the silly people. They succeeded in getting scientifically ignorant politicians to ban fracking in New York, Maryland and Vermont.

Hollywood gave an Oscar to "Gasland," a documentary that suggests fracking will shove gas into some people's drinking water, so the water will burn. It's true that some water contains so much natural gas that you can light it.

But another documentary, "FrackNation," shows that gas got into plumbing long before fracking came. There's gas in the earth. That's why it's called "natural gas." Some gets into well water. Environmental officials investigated the flames shown in "Gasland" and concluded that the pollution had nothing to do with fracking.

"FrackNation" director Phelim McAleer tried to confront "Gasland" director Josh Fox about this, but Fox wouldn't answer his questions. Instead, he demanded to know whom McAleer works for. He also turned down my invitations to publicly debate fracking. Many activists don't like to answer questions that don't fit their narrative.

Even some homeowners who filed a lawsuit claiming that their water was poisoned by fracking weren't happy to learn that their water is safe. I'd think they would be delighted, but "FrackNation" shows a couple reacting with outrage when environmental officials test their water and find it clean.

...

So far, most regulators outside New York, Maryland and Vermont have ignored the silly people. So thanks to fracking, Americans pay less for heat (and everything else), the economy is helped, new jobs get created, we create less greenhouse gas, and for the first time since the 19th century, America may become a net exporter of energy.

Good things happen if the silly people can't convince all politicians to ban progress.

Why Anti-Fracking Environmentalists Are Holding Back the U.S. - Reason.com


----------



## The Irish Ram

Like I said Rgd,  You have no idea what's going on here, you not being here, while, you know, I am.  
I doubt anything amuses you, but the wells they are blowing out at present are our water wells and has nothing to do with oil field jargon.  Stick to manual labor.  Comprehension isn't your forte.

In fact, you sound a little envious, having to drag your ass out of bed every morning to make a buck, while we can sit on ours and make more than you do.  LOL  "Tough shit".  LOL.

Hey there AJ. Not a tree huger, not a greenie, not against fracking. Thrilled that we have an energy source that isn't manipulated by an Arab nation.
Against lying and fraud.
Not thrilled about being manipulated and/or cheated by Chesapeake, especially when it isn't necessary.  

NARO said it best:
*They take it all and give back what they're forced to. * 
There's hardly a sizable piece of land here that isn't under lease.  If we were anti fracking that wouldn't be the case. 
 We object to lying about a well's production, refusing to pay us for our gas and oil.  Dumping hazardous chemicals on site. Poisoning our wells, and refusing to provide clean water after 12 months. Gathering on land they have no lease for.   Refusing to abide by the terms of the contracts they sign, and forcing us to go to court to get what they owe us.  

What on earth makes you or this country think that you are *entitled * to resources the we bought and paid for, just because you could benefit from it?  I don't remember you chipping in on the payment when I bought the place.  This is not an oil field. This is my front yard.
Having seen you stand up for what is right for awhile now, if you sacrificed your home and in return were to collect a % of the profits from that home, and they just refused to give you *your *share, would *you* tell them to just go ahead and take it for free?    

If American's are paying less for heat, and fracking is the cause, sounds like we're doing *OUR* part.  Why do you think they shouldn't have to uphold their part of the arrangement?


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> In fact, you sound a little envious, having to drag your ass out of bed every morning to make a buck, while we can sit on ours and make more than you do.  LOL  "Tough shit".  LOL.



Oh...while that is certainly possible, you making more than I do, you really don't even understand the nature of my work, so you are not in a position to understand the conditions of it nor the value of even a single minute of my time. Your experience in dirt farming I will gladly concede. While noting that if it was worth as much as you indicate, the locals wouldn't have any trouble at all finding work in the oil field, as I did, versus your claim that they cannot. 

Enjoy Appalachia, it isn't all bad, and certainly is rich in natural resources. Even if it doesn't have the quality of human capital to develop it, the parts of the country which have hardy working folk to spare are more than happy to supply them to develop your resources for you.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Hey there AJ. Not a tree huger, not a greenie, not against fracking. Thrilled that we have an energy source that isn't manipulated by an Arab nation.
> Against lying and fraud.
> Not thrilled about being manipulated and/or cheated by Chesapeake, especially when it isn't necessary.



You haven't signed a lease. So apparently you haven't been lied to or cheated by anyone yet. Do you have any experience with Chesapeake whatsoever, or are you just gossiping about what your neighbors (possibly just as ignorant of leases and mineral extraction as you) have told you? 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> We object to lying about a well's production, refusing to pay us for our gas and oil.



You said you haven't signed a lease. How could anyone lie to you about a well's production which hasn't happened yet?



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Dumping hazardous chemicals on site. Poisoning our wells, and refusing to provide clean water after 12 months.



You said you haven't signed a lease. How could anyone poison your wells or refuse to clean up on your property if you haven't signed a lease?



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Gathering on land they have no lease for.   Refusing to abide by the terms of the contracts they sign, and forcing us to go to court to get what they owe us.



If you haven't signed a lease, what contracts have you signed with Chesapeake that require you to sue them?

Whats the deal Irish, you either signed a lease and things happened, or you didn't sign a lease and are perfectly capable of using the laws of trespass and private property against EVERYONE, including Chesapeake, Federal and State authorities without warrants, and just about everyone else on the planet.

So did you sign the lease, or have a real beef, or are you just whining because you were ignorant about some other paperwork you signed, or were STUPID enough to not defend your property against interlopers?

So which one is the truth?



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> If American's are paying less for heat, and fracking is the cause, sounds like we're doing *OUR* part.  Why do you think they shouldn't have to uphold their part of the arrangement?



What arrangement? You said you haven't signed the lease? If you have an arrangement, then you certainly must have signed SOMETHING. So maybe you did pull a Faustian bargain of some sort? Oh Irish! Methinks you doth protest too much!


----------



## The Irish Ram

Me don't care what you think.  You're big oil's dummy.  You do what they tell you or you don't eat.
My home is at stake here, where I am and your not.
For verification there is plenty of media coverage of your boss's "indiscretions",  if you'd like to check it out.  As for signing me up, it all depends on how well they treat my neighbors.  Unlike you, I like money I don't have to work for.  I also like walking out of my front door and seeing nothing but nature.  
You need them to stay off of welfare dummy,  I don't.  I'm fine with or without them.

In fact,  I'll come back every day with a new story about you boss dummy, starting tonight.  Let's let the readers here decide. 

Why wait:
Pick one of my homework lessons, and we'll talk about it later..........

Chesapeake To Pay $7.5 Million Over Gas Royalty Controversy
SALEM, Ohio &#8212; Chesapeake Energy has agreed to settle a class action lawsuit alleging the company underpaid gas royalties to leaseholders. Chesapeake Energy has agreed to pay $7.5 million settle a lawsuit filed by 14 plaintiffs from Susquehanna, Northampton, Lehigh, &#8230;


Exxon Illegally Dumped Waste in Pennsylvania
Exxon Mobil Corp., the world&#8217;s largest energy company, was charged with dumping more than 50,000 gallons of waste water,

Yeah,  my due diligence is way out of line.  
Have their lease, may sign, may not.  Just doing what you told me in your DO YOUR HOMEWORK post.  Been doing it for over a year.  Good faith nonexistent.  You work for thieves.


----------



## The Irish Ram

MarkWest Energy in Hot Water for Spills


According to the Columbus Dispatch, Denver-based MarkWest Energy is facing state sanctions and fines for pipeline-construction spills in eastern Ohio.

The Dispatch reports that in a March 8 letter to MarkWest, from the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency, Scott Nally, director of the OEPA, called *the repeated nature* of four spills &#8220;unacceptable.&#8221;

There were more than four spills, however.



> &#8220;As the EPA and the company negotiate penalties, agency reports show that *MarkWest and its contractors have had 13 additional spills* in Belmont, Harrison, Guernsey, Monroe and Noble counties, including a 1,200-gallon slurry spill that polluted a Monroe County wetland in July.&#8221;
> 
> Many of the spills stem from issues related to drilling in areas once used for strip-mining. Those areas, according to MarkWest attorney, Chris Jones, are difficult because soils and rocks are too loosely packed to contain slurry.



See buddy, it's not that shit happens occasionally, it's that shit happens constantly.  If you KNOW the rocks are too loose to SAFELY proceed, and your options are move a little to the left where it *is *safe, or poison what ever you want to get what you want,  is a problem for us.  You drill in Ohio.  We live in Ohio.  
 The problem isn't that shit happens, it's that you don't give a shit happens. 
Full report at 11:00


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Me don't care what you think.



Me know. And me already say why it is so easy to tell.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> You're big oil's dummy.  You do what they tell you or you don't eat.



Haven't worked in the oil industry proper for going on 2 decades now. My ability to eat is dependent on being able to handle both big oil reservoir engineering department, and and big and small goverments, and everyone in between, including landowners who don't even have the qualifications to swing a pipewrench in the oil field, let alone sort out issues on a state, national, or international scale.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> My home is at stake here, where I am and your not.



Your home is not at stake, you said you haven't signed the lease yet. Unless you were lying about that of course.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> For verification there is plenty of media coverage of your boss's "indiscretions",  if you'd like to check it out.



My boss doesn't drill wells. Or frack them. Or produce them. But my boss pays quite handsomely for someone who knows how to do all of these things to WATCH what everyone else is doing, for good reason.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> As for signing me up, it all depends on how well they treat my neighbors.  Unlike you, I like money I don't have to work for.



Which is exactly why Appalachia is such a hotbed for people who can't handle oil field work, once you are raised with the attitude you have just expressed, working at a real job becomes nearly impossible. Workers comp claims, disability, quitting the same day they hire on, thank you for demonstrating exactly why you and your neighbors are not qualified for working for a living. Always looking for an easy out....



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Why wait:
> Pick one of my homework lessons, and we'll talk about it later..........
> 
> Chesapeake To Pay $7.5 Million Over Gas Royalty Controversy
> SALEM, Ohio  Chesapeake Energy has agreed to settle a class action lawsuit alleging the company underpaid gas royalties to leaseholders. Chesapeake Energy has agreed to pay $7.5 million settle a lawsuit filed by 14 plaintiffs from Susquehanna, Northampton, Lehigh,



I need a reference to the court documents please if you are seriously asking for a professionals opinion. From the companies perspective, if they were supposed to pay $100 million in royalties and are only now required to pay $7.5 million, this is as big a win as you can get, and only those in Appalachia would confuse it with WHO is doing the winning.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Exxon Illegally Dumped Waste in Pennsylvania
> Exxon Mobil Corp., the worlds largest energy company, was charged with dumping more than 50,000 gallons of waste water,
> 
> Yeah,  my due diligence is way out of line.



Charged with. OJ was charged with murder, turns out, he didn't do it.

Are you seriously suggesting that out of the 5,000 Marcellus wells, 8,000 Bakken wells, 20,000 Barnett wells, and attendant other thousands in the Woodford and Fayetteville formations of the Anadarko and Arkoma Basins, this is it?

After millions of frack jobs, which is one of your main whining beefs, this is IT?

Take the money Irish, anyone who confuses that many wells, with that few in number and dollar problems, is really destined for one place, and you ALREADY being in Appalachia, you will be far ahead of your kin.









			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Have their lease, may sign, may not.



Then stop whining as though you already have the problems associated with it, when either you do, in which case you are a liar and are whining because you are stuck with the terms of it, or you don't, and can keep everyone off your property in perpetuity and shoot at them to boot with granddaddys' musket!! 

But for the love of Pete, stop already.


----------



## The Irish Ram

No whine RGD, that's your gig.  I offered the flip side of the "great story" posted here.  You turned in into a pissing match, middle school style.  

35 minutes due west of Pittsburgh isn't quite the hillbilly haven you make it out to be.  What part of Deliverance were you born in dummy? A little further south I recon.   

You've been sucking too much of that Denver brown cloud if you think anyone is going to believe that the gas and oil companies can be trusted to keep their word.   Case in point, 13 spills.    They are only using monkeys like you to monitor a few of the wells here because only a few are being monitored by the EPA, and they've  told Big Gas which ones they are!  I bet 13 spills don't happen on *those* sites!  So how many bananas do you get for a 13 spill record?

And hell no, this isn't all I've got.  I could post one of your boss's lying schemes every day for 93 days just from one local paper alone!

But back to that great story, before you got all butt hurt:  
Remember all those households saving all that money on cheaper fuel?  LLLOL.  There's no coal industry anymore. Energy costs are necessarily going to skyrocket, remember that quote?  Do you think that they are going to *forget* to TAX the gas as soon as it hits the surface?  

In fact,   as we speak: 
Gubernatorial Frontrunner Proposes Severance Tax
Pennsylvania&#8217;s *democratic * gubernatorial frontrunner, U.S. Rep. Allyson Schwartz, announced she would impose a 5 percent severance tax on Marcellus Shale production, according to State Impact Pennsylvania.

&#8220;Schwartz told reporters on a conference call that her plan for what she called a &#8220;reasonable, fair, moderate tax&#8221; *would generate $612 million this year and nearly triple to $2 billion in about 10 years.* She said she wants to use the money to invest in education and transportation infrastructure.&#8221;  ( in Egypt, lol )

Schwartz isn&#8217;t the only candidate making a severance tax proposal. Candidates John Hanger and Katie McGinty also call for more taxes.

*Republican *Governor Tom Corbett has said there&#8217;s no need for additional taxes on the oil and gas industry.

Millions and billions RGGR,  sucked right out of the pockets of all those lucky households.   
That poor little girl's crying because your boss stole her Daddy's gas and her room is so cold.........


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> 35 minutes due west of Pittsburgh isn't quite the hillbilly haven you make it out to be.  What part of Deliverance were you born in dummy? A little further south I recon.



East actually. Closer to Johnstown. You are right, west of Pittsburgh isn't all that bad, the people there with brains have had plenty of opportunity to leave.

Interestingly, I cruised up the river from Wheeling to East Liverpool before the AAPG National in Pittsburgh. All the good labor you claim is there sure doesn't seem to be keeping the manufacturing around, more empty mills and whatnot than I have seen in awhile.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> You've been sucking too much of that Denver brown cloud if you think anyone is going to believe that the gas and oil companies can be trusted to keep their word.



Obviously you haven't been to Denver recently. And you should learn to read at a level more appropriate to even someone close to Appalachia in the local dying countryside hoping to become a sububan zone for Pittsburgh, I told you I don't live in Denver. 



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Remember all those households saving all that money on cheaper fuel?  LLLOL.  There's no coal industry anymore. Energy costs are necessarily going to skyrocket, remember that quote?  Do you think that they are going to *forget* to TAX the gas as soon as it hits the surface?



It is your state, not mine. If you don't like what they tax, or don't tax, I recommend you whine to your local representative.


----------



## The Irish Ram

You are right about that.  Lots of lost jobs for the middle class here.  And,  I didn't claim there was labor, just the opposite.  I claimed that laborers would rather work than lose their homes.   

Clinton got rid of the steel mills, Obama got rid of the coal, and gas is going to necessarily skyrocket.  

Not my state,  Pennsylvania.   

I skim over your posts, so.... location: Denver, is about all that caught my interest.   

Did you happen to stop by the well that exploded and melted the highway while you were up that way?  Young worker in his 20's killed. Sad.  
I could get the location of the accidental, reoccurring spill site in case you want to lend your expertise to your fellow gas jocks..........


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> You are right about that.  Lots of lost jobs for the middle class here.  And,  I didn't claim there was labor, just the opposite.  I claimed that laborers would rather work than lose their homes.



Maybe they would. But the future is built on the young, and the last 6 younglings (they were younglings, recent graduates from a machine operator school no less) that were hired for oil field work that I know of didn't last 2 weeks. I blame that more of their parents than them of course, but their parents would be the home owners, and are the ones telling them that, "gee Johnny, it is so unreasonable for you to work so hard, why don't you just quit and come home".



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Clinton got rid of the steel mills, Obama got rid of the coal, and gas is going to necessarily skyrocket.



Maybe in the future. Certainly that isn't what is happening now, those natural gas drillers really know what they are doing.

Manufacturing Energy Consumption Survey (MECS) - Analysis & Projections - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)





			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Did you happen to stop by the well that exploded and melted the highway while you were up that way?  Young worker in his 20's killed. Sad.
> I could get the location of the accidental, reoccurring spill site in case you want to lend your expertise to your fellow gas jocks..........



Oil field work is hard, and dangerous. Bad things happen, are usually random in nature, and the oil fields always improving safety record is a credit to the people who work in the industry who never forget this.  This is why farmers and those who are naturally scared, raised to be fearful, taught by their union educators to be horrified of hard work and disdain the idea of competitive placement (in addition to limited skill sets, poor work ethic or lacking intellectual abilities) are better off not applying. 

Certainly the best steel is made by the hottest fire, and those forged professionally in the oil field are allowed to giggle about those who turned into a puddle along the way. This would apply to the few who APPLY of course, most raised with the limitations I've mentioned don't even try of course.


----------



## The Irish Ram

So farmer dig in dirt, but gas company's dig in dirt!  You appear to be the essence of the Peter Principal. 

EIA. hahahahahahhahaa  OSHA. hahahahahhaha   EPA. hahahhahhahaha  What's not to believe heh?

Those politicians said millions *now*, billions in the *future*.   

If your boss doesn't even want to pay for the "misc." costs incurred  for procuring the resources and instead tries to pass the expenses of * their business* on to the poor property owners,  what chance is there that they are going to eat millions and billions of tax burden the gov. is so fond of.  True to form, that burden will be tacked onto our utility bills.
It is the real 1%  using the other real 1% to plunder the middle class.   

The best steel was made right here, in this valley,  by the hard workers here, in this valley.  There is no more "best" steel.  There is inferior steel from China, forged in mills, run on coal, whose air we insist on going broke to clean, before we pass it onto Europe.

Of course you laugh at the "puddles". < (what a cute name for devastation)   Moral bankruptcy is the hallmark of your business.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> So farmer dig in dirt, but gas company's dig in dirt!  You appear to be the essence of the Peter Principal.



Is this an oblique reference to your reference of "blowing" a well?



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> If your boss doesn't even want to pay for the "misc." costs incurred  for procuring the resources and instead tries to pass the expenses of * their business* on to the poor property owners,  what chance is there that they are going to eat millions and billions of tax burden the gov. is so fond of.  True to form, that burden will be tacked onto our utility bills.
> It is the real 1%  using the other real 1% to plunder the middle class.



My boss doesn't procure resources. My boss doesn't "pass expenses along" because I don't work for a "for profit" enterprise. I inform, educate, present, consult with other professionals in the field, coordinate and confer.

Whatever windmill you are tilting at, it does not appear to involve me. Or my boss.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> The best steel was made right here, in this valley,  by the hard workers here, in this valley.



WAS being the key word in that sentence. Just as I fled Appalachia decades ago, so to did the jobs in manufacturing as the educational system and work ethic declined, the "I am owed" attitudes of  workers reinforced by the unions and their political influence in Pennsylvania....WAS being the key word indeed.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Of course you laugh at the "puddles". < (what a cute name for devastation)   Moral bankruptcy is the hallmark of your business.



The hallmark of the oil and gas business (which I have already said I am not longer in, your reading comprehension just proving my point about Appalachia) is to make sure you have gasoline to put in your car, and that companies can provide plentiful natural gas so they can afford to hire even the likes of Appalachia workers. 

What kind of hypocrite are you to bitch and whine from your privileged position only obtained BECAUSE of the things you pretend to despise?


----------



## The Irish Ram

My privileged  position has  nothing to do with what I despise, and everything to do with what I love.  No lease necessary...........  
If I do sign though, you'll have to address my even loftier privileged position. 

NAFTA was responsible for the steel mill decline here, not the work ethic.
Obama was responsible for the coal industry decline,  not the work ethic.  

And as I said before, there isn't a sizable piece of property here that hasn't been leased.  Responsible frackers are welcome all over the tri-state area.  We don't despise progress, we embrace it.
13 pretend spills are what we resent.  Lying, cheating, thieves who confer are the cutthroats we are dealing with this time around.   

I'm sure your right.  Making sure we have gas for our cars is tantamount for big gas and oil.  Profits take a back seat to our well being.  Good one. 

Odd, considering that you were born in Appalachia and lived in Appalachia until you were old enough to flee, lol, you seem to have a real hard on for the good folks of Appalachia, never missing an opportunity to denigrate them,  Lil Abner.   
Are there other groups you resent as well?


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> My privileged  position has  nothing to do with what I despise, and everything to do with what I love.



Bullshit. You undoubtedly drive a car, using liquid fuels manufactured by the industry you are currently bashing. Perhaps you are even so hypocritical as to mow your lawn with a lawn mower powered by those same kinds of fuels, I bet your farmer friends don't use horses to plow their fields but instead use the labor and sweat of the oil and gas industry to allow you and them to produce more food using their product.

You are typing these posts on a computer made out of plastic, itself a product of the production of oil and gas. You are using electricity to communicate with the WWW, and the infrastructure used to support electrical generation is all based on oil and gas consumption.

Your privileged position is that of an American, raised in a rich country with plentiful resources and far fewer competent people doing productive work in the oil and gas industry to support the masses who would rather whine and bitch about how awful it is, the very process which allows them to do the bitching and whining.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> If I do sign though, you'll have to address my even loftier privileged position.



Not a chance. I have made more landowners wealthy than you know, and the same ignorant fool with $100 in the bank is still an ignorant fool with $100,000 in the bank. Money will not change your disposition, attitude, or ignorance. You will just be a wealthier fool, nothing more, your new-found wealth having NOTHING to do with your abilities, but only the luck of owning something of value. Something else I am certain of is that you didn't buy that property with the intent of speculating in resource extraction. That would require brains and experience, neither of which you have. The consequences of the few people with demonstrated capability in the industry you despise allows you to be a privileged American, you have already told us how your success has NOTHING to do with your abilities, only the luck of where you were born and who owned what particular chunk of land. 

Enjoy having hit the lottery (maybe) with no prerequisite of training, experience or brains required. And you are welcome, from the industry which made it possible for those who know so little, so have so much.



			
				The Irish Mean said:
			
		

> NAFTA was responsible for the steel mill decline here, not the work ethic.
> Obama was responsible for the coal industry decline,  not the work ethic.



NAFTA was responsible for more competition, and your area lost. Because you can't compete. Which is also why you can't get jobs in an industry BUILT on the idea. Obama didn't begin the coal industry decline, the success of the natural gas drillers bringing the price down to displace coal generated electricity did, Obama just made it easier for the success of the oil and gas industry to displace an older and dirtier one. No magic involved in that at all...and of course natural gas drilling isn't a union based activity either, so to some extent this was inevitable as unions drive inefficiencies into the system and the oil and gas industry is supreme at getting rid of such inefficiencies. And the local labor and their unions which create them.

Plus of course those incapable of doing the work required by the oil and gas drilling industry, mortgages or not.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> And as I said before, there isn't a sizable piece of property here that hasn't been leased.  Responsible frackers are welcome all over the tri-state area.  We don't despise progress, we embrace it.



Liar. You yourself have disproved this statement through multiple pages of whining about things which haven't happened to you. Frackers aren't welcome in the least, here are some of your neighbors, being "welcoming". 

No Fracking! Stop Hydraulic Fracturing Gas Drilling in NY, PA, OH and Beyond




			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> 13 pretend spills are what we resent.  Lying, cheating, thieves who confer are the cutthroats we are dealing with this time around.



You haven't signed a lease, no one has bothered you in the least. Or you are lying, have signed the lease, and are pissed that your ignorance in what the lease entailed has caught you by the short hairs. In either case, you don't know what you are talking about and are limited to gossiping about what other ignorant people have told you, or you have assumed from newspaper articles and whatnot.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Odd, considering that you were born in Appalachia and lived in Appalachia until you were old enough to flee, lol, you seem to have a real hard on for the good folks of Appalachia, never missing an opportunity to denigrate them,  Lil Abner.
> Are there other groups you resent as well?



I was born in Texas. My parents and grandparents were born in Appalachia. I was raised there from 1st grade to high school graduation.

I don't resent Appalachia. It is what it is. But you don't get to pretend that it is all someone else's or some other groups fault that you are the way you are, or that the consequences of your culturally reinforced limitations can''t be laid at directly at your feet.


----------



## The Irish Ram

And you don't get to pretend there are no consequences when dealing with lying cheating gas and oil companies.  And apparently you do resent Appalachia and all of it's "limitations".   You keep using your prejudice to try to condone your behavior.     We can speak of your atrocities in *Colorado* if you prefer.  Unable to hear the "gossip" they're spreading about greedy gas cos.,  I'll check and see if any of their court cases mirror the ones you've created here in limitation land.   

What you hope for is that people *don't* do their homework, so when you get caught,  you can lay the blame directly at our feet.    Where did you get  13 spill Will?  Texas?  Your boss considers him a gas co. asset.  And he is or he would have been fired after the 3 spill.  Or the 7th.  9th,  12th. spill.  How much money is he saving you by illegal dumping? And how much money are you paying him to do it??  How much of the owner's land have you destroyed in the process, and point to the contractual right that you believe you have to spill with impunity on land someone else owns.

You blaming locale, signing a lease, not signing a lease, to dumb to read a lease, interpretation of the lease, is the ploy your boss is using all over the country for keeping your profits *AND * ours.  You deflecting corporate rape by blaming those being raped is typical and country wide. What you are doing is *telling*  people you are *going* to make them wealthy and then keeping it all for yourselves.
Case in point, Don Fausner.( location: not Appalachia), was hoping to pay for all of his grand children's educations, but his royalty checks dropped 99 % from the first one to the next one.  So were you errant in your "misc." deductions regarding the first check he got, oddly > @12% as per contractual agreement,  or did it take you until his subsequent check to manufacture enough phoney deductions to keep 99% of *his* share of that sweet sweet sweet spot you pooled on *his* dairy farm?    He *SHOULD* be wealthy.  Instead, your boss is wealthi*er*. Don *should* be the 21 century Jed Clampett.  Sadly, you're 21 century thieves.  He's not Faust.  He's Grampa Fausner.  And you're still Satan.

The leases aren't the problem dummy.  Your bosses' direct defiance of the leases is the problem. 
So, Jethro, what cultural limitations are you experiencing in Rifle, Co.  or N. Dakota, Wyoming, Ok. N.J. N.Y. Kansas, ..................?

13 "opps" spills have nothing to do with the IQ of the land *owner* and everything to do with your blatant disregard for the land you lease.  
Dumping your waste in a remote corn field instead of transporting it to a designated location, and stealing our royalties saves you time, and money.  Do they confer with you before or after they get caught?  Maybe getting advice from a RGR instead of a LWYR is part of their problem.

You seem to think that me signing a lease or not, is responsible for all of these breaches, when in truth, I'm just doing my homework.  If I needed your money, I would have signed the lease.  I've lived here quite comfortably without you intruding.  There is an open offer, should I decide to let you "make me wealthy".  And now, legal recourse should you decide help yourself to benefits you are not entitled to.  And not signing a lease does not eliminate the problems you cause.  When you poison the creek a mile upstream, my animals will still suffer the consequences.  Any chance you boys might confer concerning a moral compass or the definition of good faith? lol.

And,  there you go again with the holier than thou gas mentality.  You don't made people wealthy, the land and diverse resources that *we own* makes us wealthy, and will continue to do so long after you succumb.  *We* are the gas and oil owners. *You're* just a "renter".  And an irresponsible one at that.  


The United States District Court for the Southern District of *West Virginia*, in Jones, et al. v. Dominion Transmission, et al., approved a multi-million dollar settlement in favor of 25,000 oil and gas OWNERS < (in other words, us) to resolve a class action alleging that the company cheated them out of natural gas royalties. <(in other words, you. )The plaintiffs also claimed that *the company improperly deducted post-production expenses from royalty payments.*

Seems you have to settle no matter who you rob or where they live.  There's Appalachia, and then there's et al: 

In a class action suit entitled Lindauer et. al v. Williams Production RMT Company filed in Garfield County, *Colorado*, the plaintiffs alleged that Williams *had not properly calculated royalty payments *because it failed to fully account for proceeds that it received from the sale of gas and other products. The complaint also alleged that the company failed to refund amounts withheld from royalty payments to pay taxes. The parties settled.

In Gardner, et al. v. Shell Oil Co., an *Oklahoma* jury ordered Shell Oil Co. to pay millions to trustees of royalty owners for their share of a prolific oil well dug in the early-1970s.  *Shell did not include the income from this well in the calculations of net profits sent to the plaintiffs.*

Maybe you should confer with someone that has a properly functioning royalty calculator.  You keep getting it wrong, over and over and over..........


----------



## The Irish Ram

Holy cow Rggd, you may want to cap this well, because I did check, and there are endless court documents for the gathering,  and crude behavior on the part of your boss everywhere!   This isn't going to be productive for your reputation.  

And I'm sure that the OP would rather concentrate on what good may come from what we have to offer, regardless of Big Oil's cutthroat tactics used to obtain it,  and the government's holding it for ransom.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> The leases aren't the problem dummy.  Your bosses' direct defiance of the leases is the problem.



My boss doesn't sign leases. Or have interests in any. Anywhere. Nor do I. If either of us did, it could be construed as a conflict of interest under certain circumstances. Sorry. I would recommend finding whichever high school teacher taught you to read and give them a good ass whuppin for doing such a piss poor job, but I suppose it is too late for that.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> So, Jethro, what cultural limitations are you experiencing in Rifle, Co.  or N. Dakota, Wyoming, Ok. N.J. N.Y. Kansas, ..................?



None whatsoever. Some of the companies working in Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio right now are collecting workers from the western states because they are quite hardy when compared to the local labor force available.


----------



## Mr. H.

RGR said:


> None whatsoever. Some of the companies working in Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio right now are collecting workers from the western states because they are quite hardy when compared to the local labor force available.



My brother is a well site geologist (Illinois) and is booked for months sitting Utica wells in Ohio. 

$1,000/day. Not bad.


----------



## westwall

ABikerSailor said:


> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?







Yes.


----------



## American_Jihad

westwall said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
Click to expand...


He didn't get the memo on the fake flaming water, etc...


https://www.google.com/search?sourc...Check:+Truths+and+Myths+in+Anti-Fracking+Film


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> Holy cow Rggd, you may want to cap this well, because I did check, and there are endless court documents for the gathering,  and crude behavior on the part of your boss everywhere!   This isn't going to be productive for your reputation.
> 
> And I'm sure that the OP would rather concentrate on what good may come from what we have to offer, regardless of Big Oil's cutthroat tactics used to obtain it,  and the government's holding it for ransom.



Y'know what? You're pissed off because you, a relative, and/or someone you know fucked up. It's as simple as that. 

"Big Oil" is a bit player in the U.S. Independents do the heavy hauling these days.

And by merely using the term "Big Oil" tells me that you're a goddamn moron.


----------



## The Irish Ram

In spite of the crooks we are forced to deal with, I still think it's a good idea too.  There is no reason for this country to depend on any country but this one for it's needs.  We have what we need right here.  And we're doing our share.
But, there is also no need to steal it to boost big oil and gas bottom lines, and tax it until no one can afford it. 

Nobody's water's flaming that I know of,  but it's completely disappeared in some areas.  The mini quakes are new.  
Shale is brittle and easy to fracture.  It's propped up by the gas and oil.  When it's pillow is sucked out of an area, the shale shifts and causes little quakes.  They're no big deal so far.   It will settle.  
We expect some environment impacts.  Just not 13 of them.

Disaster du jour:
Bracewell on fire.


----------



## Mr. H.

To loosely quote Frank Zappa...

Ram it up your Irish poop chute.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Sorry Pops, no pissed off anybody.  No relative or personal disasters *yet*. And you just compared signing a lease with f*****g up. lol.  And I don't know any of the people suing for their royalty checks.  Maybe the courts are just making them all up.  

 I think you're pissed off because there are 2 sides to every story, and you just want there to be one. 
Since you're here, what do *you* think about all of those bit players reneging on their royalty payments to the owners of the gas, that you think you're entitled to?


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> Sorry Pops, no pissed off anybody.  No relative or personal disasters *yet*. And you just compared signing a lease with f*****g up. lol.  And I don't know any of the people suing for their royalty checks.  Maybe the courts are just making them all up.
> 
> I think you're pissed off because there are 2 sides to every story, and you just want there to be one.
> Since you're here, what do *you* think about all of those bit players reneging on their royalty payments to the owners of the gas, that you think you're entitled to?



I'm pissed off because I've spent the last 36 years of my life fending off stupid fucks like you. Have a nice day, stupid fuck.


----------



## Mr. H.

"How do you "make it go".


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> "How do you "make it go".



Try shoving it H.............

Sorry you can't handle the truth.   

One inconvenient truth you keep fending off is the theft of our royalty checks.  What's up with that?  
If only you could fend off 13 spills the way you fend off the truth.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Could not pass this up!  lol.
Remember the commercials with the baby buggy on Capitol Hill and the coughing coughing, to convince us to destroy the coal industry?  And that skyrocketing energy costs are a small price to pay for our babies in buggies and clean air for all? 



> * The EPA just announced *that coal has no impact on global warming or notable CO2 emissions:
> 
> The Obama administration is effectively banning the construction of new coal-fired power plants, a move officials admit will have little to no impact on global warming.
> 
> &#8220;The EPA does not anticipate that this proposed rule will result in notable CO2 emission change &#8230; by 2022,&#8221; the agency writes in its proposal to limit greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> &#8220;EPA knows there aren&#8217;t benefits,&#8221; Dan Simmons, director of regulatory and state affairs at the Institute for Energy Research, told The Daily Caller News Foundation. &#8220;EPA and environmentalists are being disingenuous when they claim this rule will have an impact on the climate or the environment.&#8221;
> 
> Last week, the EPA unveiled the first ever carbon emissions limits for new power power plants, hailing them as the first step to combating global warming and protecting future generations.
> 
> &#8220;Climate change is one of the most significant public health challenges of our time. By taking commonsense action to limit carbon pollution from new power plants, we can slow the effects of climate change and fulfill our obligation to ensure a safe and healthy environment for our children,&#8221; said EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy.
> 
> The rule &#8220;will contribute to the actions required to slow or reverse the accumulation of GHG concentrations in the atmosphere, which is necessary to protect against projected climate change impacts and risks.&#8221;
> 
> Why ban coal power if it won&#8217;t even put a dent in global warming? Critics say this is because the EPA is trying to mask the high costs of compliance by not claiming that the proposal would create any benefits.
> 
> &#8220;They don&#8217;t want to quantify the damages,&#8221; Simmons said. &#8220;They know the rule will create large harms, but they don&#8217;t want to be held liable.&#8221;
> 
> By claiming monetized benefits from cutting carbon emissions from power plants, the EPA would also have to calculate the costs &#8212; meaning how the rule would impact the coal industry, employment and the economy.


EPA admits banning coal plants won't impact global warming | The Daily Caller

Too funny.  But whichever lie you choose to fly, we can still provide you with the resources you need.   Just not for free.  

36 years of you fending off the truth, has larger implications.  It turned you into an idiot, H.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> None whatsoever. Some of the companies working in Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio right now are collecting workers from the western states because they are quite hardy when compared to the local labor force available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My brother is a well site geologist (Illinois) and is booked for months sitting Utica wells in Ohio.
> 
> $1,000/day. Not bad.
Click to expand...


Not bad at all. My day rate a few decades ago only ever made it to $500/day.


----------



## RGR

American_Jihad said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He didn't get the memo on the fake flaming water, etc...
Click to expand...


It wasn't fake. And it wasn't methane from an out of control frack job either. To those who never lived with and in coal country where the dewatering of the mine releases sorbed methane which almost immediately ends up in landowners well water, these kinds of things are undoubtedly fascinating. But have nothing to do with frack jobs.

When a frack job comes through your water well system into the house, the expected result looks like this:







Frackland didn't have any pictures of that happening, though, did they? Of course not, they had never been on a frack job gone bad, like I have, or taped the cleaning up of the mess, like I did, or remediated the split pipe which caused the problem and finished the job a week later, like I have. When someone wants to make a "documentary" without talking to the people who have done all of these things, you know its just a fraud, something to feed a given audience for a designed result.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> And by merely using the term "Big Oil" tells me that you're a goddamn moron.



Fixed it for ya H:

"And by merely using the term "Big Oil" tells me that you're a goddamn hick" which brings along the connotation of much more than just stupid, as Irish is more than willing to demonstrate in voluminous fashion.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> We have what we need right here.  And we're doing our share.



No you haven't. According to you, you haven't signed the lease



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Shale is brittle and easy to fracture.



Except for the ones with a higher clay composition, that are elastic, and don't.

Please try and stick to what little you know on the topic, you won't look as foolish that way.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> We expect some environment impacts.  Just not 13 of them.



You don't have any disasters. You haven't signed the lease, you said so yourself.


----------



## westwall

The Irish Ram said:


> In spite of the crooks we are forced to deal with, I still think it's a good idea too.  There is no reason for this country to depend on any country but this one for it's needs.  We have what we need right here.  And we're doing our share.
> But, there is also no need to steal it to boost big oil and gas bottom lines, and tax it until no one can afford it.
> 
> Nobody's water's flaming that I know of,  but it's completely disappeared in some areas.  The mini quakes are new.
> Shale is brittle and easy to fracture.  It's propped up by the gas and oil.  When it's pillow is sucked out of an area, the shale shifts and causes little quakes.  They're no big deal so far.   It will settle.
> We expect some environment impacts.  Just not 13 of them.
> 
> Disaster du jour:
> Bracewell on fire.








The mini quakes are NOT new.  They have been around as long as fracking has, which is over 30 years now.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Pops, no pissed off anybody.  No relative or personal disasters *yet*. And you just compared signing a lease with f*****g up. lol.  And I don't know any of the people suing for their royalty checks.  Maybe the courts are just making them all up.
> 
> I think you're pissed off because there are 2 sides to every story, and you just want there to be one.
> Since you're here, what do *you* think about all of those bit players reneging on their royalty payments to the owners of the gas, that you think you're entitled to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pissed off because I've spent the last 36 years of my life fending off stupid fucks like you. Have a nice day, stupid fuck.
Click to expand...


H!! Now wait one bloody second!! While I am the first to admit that stupid fucks like Irish exist and between their sheer ignorance and hillbilly understanding of how the world works might LOOK and TALK and POST and ACT like stupid fucks, they might actually only be ignorant, poorly educated, lousy work ethic backwoods hillbilly types with good hearts! Don't let their ignorant, lack of education and crappy work ethic cloud what might otherwise just be a slack jawed and silly hillbilly and the perspective such a person might have from rarely having ever left their "holler" as it were.

So cut some slack and remember, you don't kick a puppy or confuse this:






with this:


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> One inconvenient truth you keep fending off is the theft of our royalty checks.  What's up with that?



You haven't signed a lease. Therefore you don't get royalty checks. Therefore there is nothing to steal.

May I recommend a course in remedial memory tricks so you don't get caught telling stories with forked tongue?

(play on words, Appalachia being one of those places where this still happens as well)

You in here anywhere learning the tricks of the trade Irish?


----------



## Mr. H.

There are few things more simple than an oil and gas lease. 

Unless of course, you can't read. 

I've got no sympathy, and even less time, for the illiterate.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Boys, boys, baby boys, I would have* never* forced the truth on you if I had known you had such an aversion  to it!  You've run so far from the stolen royalty checks issue you're starting to look smaller and smaller....

I don't dance with snakes.  You work for snakes.  
I do shoot them while they sun themselves on the *shale* outcroppings on the banks of the creek, to keep the kids and horses and dogs safe.  

When I say "we" have what you need, I am talking about Ohio and this wonderful tri-state area you insist on  denigrating.  

Let's see who's smart and who isn't:

My property isn't going anywhere, and their offer isn't either, so what you have is me *not* paying a lawyer for the next 2+ years to sue Big Gas and Oil for stealing the *payment * for *my* gas and oil.  I'll let "et al" set the precedent for recovery first.  Nor will you see me in court seeking damages for any  pretend spillS on my land.  
My contract will pay closer attention to these areas.  No "misc". deduction clauses overlooked, or undiscovered.  And special attention to their responsibility clause regarding water, "spills" and other environmental concerns.  
"We"  can't be too careful, cause to make clean coal, you need coal, and they'll probably be next in line, *again*, asking *us* to sign yet another "dern" lease with *them* when *y'all *get done 

So it's your turn to "make us wealthy", ( thank you so much! )  
When this country needed clay to build brick buildings, it bought *our* clay.  When Big Steel needed coal we sold them our coal.  When Big Gas needed gas, we bumpkins sold you our gas. When you needed more coal we renewed the leases.    Now this country needs more gas, so guess who welcomed Big Gas and Oil back, when you came "aknockin", checkbook in hand. 

You see, there's an old saying here, and everywhere else:
You can work for your money or let your money work for you.

So who's smarter, the one that drags his tired old butt out of bed every morning, day after day, sweat dripping down from those hard hats, long sleeves, 80 degrees out, 80% humidity, or those sitting on their air conditioned porches, sipping ice tea, watching them?  


So, if you little boys want to take turns pulling my pigtails, you go right ahead.  And I'll go look for more royalty theft court cases to see if your right and it *is *an Appalachia malady or if you screw people where ever you go.


----------



## Mr. H.

Ah, I get it now. You're a sore loser. 

Loser.


----------



## westwall

The Irish Ram said:


> Boys, boys, baby boys, I would have* never* forced the truth on you if I had known you had such an aversion  to it!  You've run so far from the stolen royalty checks issue you're starting to look smaller and smaller....
> 
> I don't dance with snakes.  You work for snakes.
> I do shoot them while they sun themselves on the *shale* outcroppings on the banks of the creek, to keep the kids and horses and dogs safe.
> 
> When I say "we" have what you need, I am talking about Ohio and this wonderful tri-state area you insist on  denigrating.
> 
> Let's see who's smart and who isn't:
> 
> My property isn't going anywhere, and their offer isn't either, so what you have is me *not* paying a lawyer for the next 2+ years to sue Big Gas and Oil for stealing the *payment * for *my* gas and oil.  I'll let "et al" set the precedent for recovery first.  Nor will you see me in court seeking damages for any  pretend spillS on my land.
> My contract will pay closer attention to these areas.  No "misc". deduction clauses overlooked, or undiscovered.  And special attention to their responsibility clause regarding water, "spills" and other environmental concerns.
> "We"  can't be too careful, cause to make clean coal, you need coal, and they'll probably be next in line, *again*, asking *us* to sign yet another "dern" lease with *them* when *y'all *get done
> 
> So it's your turn to "make us wealthy", ( thank you so much! )
> When this country needed clay to build brick buildings, it bought *our* clay.  When Big Steel needed coal we sold them our coal.  When Big Gas needed gas, we bumpkins sold you our gas. When you needed more coal we renewed the leases.    Now this country needs more gas, so guess who welcomed Big Gas and Oil back, when you came "aknockin", checkbook in hand.
> 
> You see, there's an old saying here, and everywhere else:
> You can work for your money or let your money work for you.
> 
> So who's smarter, the one that drags his tired old butt out of bed every morning, day after day, sweat dripping down from those hard hats, long sleeves, 80 degrees out, 80% humidity, or those sitting on their air conditioned porches, sipping ice tea, watching them?
> 
> 
> So, if you little boys want to take turns pulling my pigtails, you go right ahead.  And I'll go look for more royalty theft court cases to see if your right and it *is *an Appalachia malady or if you screw people where ever you go.








You wouldn't know the truth if it bitch slapped you.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Why Texans Are Chasing Millions in Oil and Gas Royalties
Energy companies are paying billions of dollars in oil and gas royalties to Texas landowners. But some owners say they&#8217;ve been short-changed. 
*The biggest among them: the State of Texas.*

&#8220;*If they don&#8217;t pay the royalty, that&#8217;s stealing*,&#8221; Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson told StateImpact Texas.

Patterson said his office is currently negotiating with two big oil companies (which he declined to name) for* years of underpayments*. Patterson said the the unpaid royalties could total upwards of $100 million. 

Texas?  BIG OIL???  H, look at what that stupid ****  said,  You had better set *him* straight, too.  Tell him there is no "Big oil and Gas", just itty bitty oil and gas.   Stupid Texas Land Commissioner!


----------



## The Irish Ram

From a ProPublica investigation:



> Over the last decade, an untold number of leases were signed, and hundreds of thousands of wells have been sunk into new energy deposits across the country. But manipulation of costs and other data by oil companies is keeping *billions* of dollars in royalties out of the hands of private and government landholders&#8230;An analysis of lease agreements, government documents and *thousands* of pages of court records shows that such *underpayments are widespread.*


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> There are few things more simple than an oil and gas lease.
> 
> Unless of course, you can't read.
> 
> I've got no sympathy, and even less time, for the illiterate.



Oh, I understand. Over the years in my dealings with them I have just developed a different attitude, one of understanding and sympathy for their inability to think for themselves, or read, or understand why out of all their family members they were the ones stuck and not able to take make their way out in the world of competition and accomplishment.

I tried no sympathy for Irish's type of ignorance once, but it made negotiations difficult because they confused cut and dried, straight up honest businessman talk with disrespecting them, not understanding that there was a reason they were left behind on the farm, and it had everything to do with their inability to understand or learn the reality of the world and its efficiency of getting things done. Basically, they just didn't have the intellectual horsepower to get up to speed, let along tag along, and certainly couldn't participate...otherwise they wouldn't be the ones stuck where they were.

So it worked out better when you used small words, and always kept in mind that you don't need to kick a puppy, you just stay low key and gentle and recognize what you are dealing with.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Boys, boys, baby boys, I would have* never* forced the truth on you if I had known you had such an aversion  to it!  You've run so far from the stolen royalty checks issue you're starting to look smaller and smaller....



Nobody has stolen your royalty checks, you haven't signed a lease.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> My property isn't going anywhere, and their offer isn't either, so what you have is me *not* paying a lawyer for the next 2+ years to sue Big Gas and Oil for stealing the *payment * for *my* gas and oil.  I'll let "et al" set the precedent for recovery first.  Nor will you see me in court seeking damages for any  pretend spillS on my land.



That's because you haven't signed a lease, you have no contract to sue over.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> So it's your turn to "make us wealthy", ( thank you so much! )



I've already mentioned that a landowner with money is the same as a landowner, they don't get smarter, better educated, or even better informed just because someone smarter than them has a way to utilize their mineral rights effectively. The illiterates Mr H speaks of are still illiterate, even after you give them money.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> You see, there's an old saying here, and everywhere else:
> You can work for your money or let your money work for you.



Certainly because you don't have any workers capable of withstanding oil field work by your own admission, you had certainly better concentrate on hitting the lottery of owning the right chunk of property.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> So who's smarter, the one that drags his tired old butt out of bed every morning, day after day, sweat dripping down from those hard hats, long sleeves, 80 degrees out, 80% humidity, or those sitting on their air conditioned porches, sipping ice tea, watching them?



hard to say....certainly your local workers aren't capable of doing such things or the oil field would gladly employ them, and I'm betting neither Mr H nor myself wear hard hats near as much as we did when we proved that we weren't local incompetent poor work ethic labor...the oil and gas industry certainly also figures out who among the initiated are capable of understanding and running our corners of the business.


----------



## The Irish Ram

> Range Resources to pay $87.5 million in Oklahoma royalty settlement.
> 
> In April we learned that Range Resources set aside $35 million for the Oklahoma royalty lawsuit. *That wasn&#8217;t quite enough. They will need another $52.5 million.*
> 
> The memorandum of understanding, which is expected to result in the execution of a definitive settlement agreement provides for a cash payment to the class in the amount of $87.5 million in exchange for full release of all claims regarding the calculation, reporting and payment of royalties from the sale of natural gas and its constituents for all periods prior to May 31, 2013. As previously disclosed in the Company 10-Q for the first quarter 2013, the Company accrued $35 million for this litigation in the first quarter of 2013, therefore the settlement will result in an incremental charge of $52.5 million in the second quarter of 2013.  LINK
> 
> In 2010, Range settled with royalty owners in the Marcellus.
> 
> The proposed agreement would give landowners who leased property to Range Resources an immediate $1.75 million. The exact payout after that isn&#8217;t known because it depends on variables such as gas prices and other costs, but the settlement sets the amount at $28 million, with about $7 million of that going to attorneys&#8217; fees.



Your boss isn't capable of mathematics................ 




> Updated: New Report: *Reckless Endangerment* while Fracking the Eagle Ford Shale
> Regulators evacuate from dangerous levels of pollution, residents left trapped
> 
> Washington, DC &#8211; A new report released today, September 19th, provides an important window into a disturbing national pattern regarding the oversight of fracking-enabled oil and gas development: regulators, charged with protecting the public, are actively avoiding evidence that fracking is harming the public. The report focuses on Karnes County, TX in an attempt to illuminate *a growing national pattern of absentee regulators.*


Eagle Ford Shale Oilfield Nightmare


----------



## The Irish Ram

*
Chesapeake shorting royalty owners in Royalties*

Four years ago DFW airport officials disagreed with how Chesapeake Energy was paying royalties. The lawsuit from that disagreement has just been settled and duck taped.

    &#8220;The case has been removed from the trial docket to allow the parties to complete final settlement documents and obtain all necessary approvals,&#8221; spokeswoman Julie Wilson said in an e-mail. &#8220;The settlement terms are mutually acceptable to the parties and will be maintained confidential.&#8221;

    Star-Telegram

The Star-Telegram blog reports the settlement amount is $5 million.

But there are new lawsuits that claim Chesapeake is underpaying royalties.

DORCHESTER MINERALS, L.P. V CHESAPEAKE EXPLORATION LLP

____________________________________

Was just outside talking to my neighbor/cousin, who signed at 4,000. per acre for 400 acres, royalty of 12% and is kicking himself in the ass because they are now offering 6,000 an acre and 17 1/2% royalties.   Smart man, hard worker, but they had *him* by the short hairs.  His original '91 lease had several months before it ran out and they threatened to plow a road right through his front yard and (new 250,000 dollar barn) and start drilling if he didn't sign.  Lovely folks you work for boys.

As for poor little logistically impaired me:
HMMMMM.  *6* grand and acre, and 17and 1/2 % royalties. Your getting closer to being my friend Big Gas and Oil.  Big casino just had to have my property in Co., maybe I'll let you make me wealthy soon in Ohio too. 
    < my ducks in a row, smiling at you.


----------



## Mr. H.

And this has affected you how?


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Ah, I get it now. You're a sore loser.
> 
> Loser.



Oh, she is a little worse than that.

When they can't be honest, pretending they are directly involved in something when they aren't, it is just a whinefest. Picture already provided.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> H, look at what that stupid ****  said,  You had better set *him* straight, too.  Tell him there is no "Big oil and Gas", just itty bitty oil and gas.   Stupid Texas Land Commissioner!



Thank you for validating exactly what H claimed, you don't even know who BIG OIL is. You might as well be bitching about the easter bunny not paying royalties for as little as you actually know on this topic.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Washington, DC  A new report released today, September 19th, provides an important window into a disturbing national pattern regarding the oversight of fracking-enabled oil and gas development: regulators, charged with protecting the public, are actively avoiding evidence that fracking is harming the public. The report focuses on Karnes County, TX in an attempt to illuminate *a growing national pattern of absentee regulators.*
> 
> Eagle Ford Shale Oilfield Nightmare



What ignoramus would confuse a report out of Washington with a letter of an individual bitching, with probably as little knowledge or credibility as you, on a topic they know nothing about other than, man, those rigs might smoke and make noise sometimes!!

Shouldn't have signed the lease I guess. Same problem you pretended to have until you admitted it wasn't your problem because you haven't even signed the lease and have nothing to bitch about yourself.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> And this has affected you how?



None of this has affected her, she hasn't even signed a lease. Likes to hear herself whine I guess.


----------



## Mr. H.

Anyhow- I'm not sure how this thread got sidetracked, but this article is more of where I've been trying to steer the discussion...

Shell Makes a Massive Bet on American Natural Gas (RDS-A)


----------



## Crackerjaxon

It is a given than any company using fracking methods is responsible for any environmental mishaps they may cause.  The should also be responsible for restoration of the land after their operation ceases.

Why people are against it is beyond me.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> And this has affected you how?



Are you hard of reading?  Big oil wants to lease my land.  It affects me because: 
The stakes have been raised.   
The courts have turned in landowners' favor.
I have a lease sitting at my lawyer's.
I like making money while I'm sleeping.  
I have a decision to make.  
    

Jax, that's one of the big problems we are having.  You would* think* it would be a given but the opposite is true.  It's the deplorable *lack* of responsibility, and the *intentional* reoccurring "mishaps" and the theft of royalty checks that we have issue with.   
Otherwise, we're all for it.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this has affected you how?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you hard of reading?  Big oil wants to lease my land.  It affects me because:
> The stakes have been raised.
Click to expand...


A potential is not "affecting" you...it only has the potential to affect you, and you have chosen to let it NOT affect you, therefore you don't get to bitch about it in advance of it happening.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> The courts have turned in landowners' favor.



The courts aren't involved with you at all, because you haven't signed the lease. You don't even have the RIGHT to bitch yet.



			
				The Irish ram said:
			
		

> I have a lease sitting at my lawyer's.



Unsigned. Which means, it isn't a lease yet. Come on Irish, lets try and overcome your local educational system and, as H would say, "fucking moron" roots, and LEARN something here. Unless you are going to claim that piece of paper crawls out at night and pesters you at the house before making its way back to your lawyer's desk in the morning, it ISN'T DOING ANYTHING OR BOTHERING ANYBODY.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> I like making money while I'm sleeping.



Who doesn't? But until you sign the contract, it makes it difficult. And you haven't signed the contract, so far you specialize in just whining about it.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> I have a decision to make.



But of course. And it is still IN THE FUTURE. Which means so far, NONE of this is affecting you. I would say wait longer. The longer the better.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> Jax, that's one of the big problems we are having.  You would* think* it would be a given but the opposite is true.  It's the deplorable *lack* of responsibility, and the *intentional* reoccurring "mishaps" and the theft of royalty checks that we have issue with.
> Otherwise, we're all for it.



No one has stolen anything from you, you haven't signed the lease. But please consider carefully, wait a long time, let the lawyer ponder, you should consult everyone you know, get into month long conversations on the topic, tell your lawyer it could be years before you can make up your mind. Yes, that would be best...take as long as possible to make the RIGHT decision. Mr H., you just shut up now...


----------



## The Irish Ram

Sure it affects me.  $6,000 is better than $4,000 an acre, every time you renew your lease.  And 17 1/2% is better than 12 1/2%,  plus now I know where added contractual protection upon added contractual protection is necessary to thwart your boss' blatant, continual breaches of contract, and no, not in the future,  it is what they are offering now.  

Mr. H has no impact whatsoever in my decisions.  He can pretend you can trust Big Gas and Oil all he wants.  Leave Pops alone.

You're just pissed that I exercised patience and did my homework, and now your going to "make me wealthi*er*." than you were previously hoping for.  While I make your lying, cheating and dumping harder, Jethro.  

I think now, while they're trying to tie up easements, permits, and loose ends, *and* most of the previous mineral right owners vs. current property ownership cases are winding down, *and* before your boss starts drilling and "gathers" my gas "accidentally",  it just might be time to invite your "land man"  to sit on my porch and enjoy a  nice cold glass of tea.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Sure it affects me.  $6,000 is better than $4,000 an acre, every time you renew your lease.  And 17 1/2% is better than 12 1/2%,  plus now I know where added contractual protection upon added contractual protection is necessary to thwart your boss' blatant, continual breaches of contract, and no, not in the future,  it is what they are offering now.



You haven't signed a lease yet, so you don't have any $/acre, and certainly no royalties have been paid therefore none have been stolen, and because you haven't signed a lease there  isn't any contract for anyone to break, you or them. So all you have been doing is bitching about problems which haven't happened yet, might not happen, and so far, have NOTHING to do with you.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> You're just pissed that I exercised patience and did my homework, and now your going to "make me wealthi*er*." than you were previously hoping for.  While I make your lying, cheating and dumping harder, Jethro.



Holding out for more money isn't "doing your homework", it is exactly the kind of greed that landmen count on. Stop acting like a rube and maybe Mr H. and I wouldn't know EXACTLY what kind of character we are dealing with, just based on what you've written in this forum.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> I think now, while they're trying to tie up easements, permits, and loose ends, *and* most of the previous mineral right owners vs. current property ownership cases are winding down, *and* before your boss starts drilling and "gathers" my gas "accidentally",  it just might be time to invite your "land man"  to sit on my porch and enjoy a  nice cold glass of tea.



Do it. Landmen love it when the rubes think they have it figured out, at that point it is a given that they will sign, the amount doesn't matter much as long as it is inline with what others have received, and they'll even let the little unimportant things into the contract you THINK are of value.

And then you will sign......


----------



## The Irish Ram

They would have loved it more, if I hadn't held out.    
If amounts don't matter, you'd quit stealing all the royalty checks you owe the landowners, and hiding prolific wells, and saving a dime here and there by dumping toxic waste out of site somewhere.  

We *must* know what's of value.  It's what you want so badly.  Unless you're just "making people wealthy" out of the goodness of your itty bitty gas and oil heart. 

And it does stem from homework. We've discovered you're not trustworthy, I needed to know which areas you are the *most* untrustworthy.    
We need to ensure we can evacuate our homes for greener pastures when you screw up the ones we have, and set aside a little lawyer money in the cookie jar, for when you try to capitalize on benefits you are not entitled to. 

Considering your abysmal track record and lack of concern regarding it, we sign when you've agreed to an amount that will keep us unharmed should we be forced to move due to gas co. environmental issues.  
You send us a three page joke, we respond with a 20 page lease.  And you sign.  Because we own what is of value to you.  What you fail to appreciate is it's valuable to us too, and our children.   

Knock Knock
Who's there?
Banana
Banana who? 
Can we have your gas and oil?


----------



## Mr. H.

Ram it up your Irish poop chute.


----------



## Mr. H.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXX0LL_oiM]Frank Zappa - Broken Hearts Are For Assholes - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## The Irish Ram

It's ok H.  Don't be bitter. You can frack.  
All's well that ends well.


----------



## westwall

The Irish Ram said:


> Sure it affects me.  $6,000 is better than $4,000 an acre, every time you renew your lease.  And 17 1/2% is better than 12 1/2%,  plus now I know where added contractual protection upon added contractual protection is necessary to thwart your boss' blatant, continual breaches of contract, and no, not in the future,  it is what they are offering now.
> 
> Mr. H has no impact whatsoever in my decisions.  He can pretend you can trust Big Gas and Oil all he wants.  Leave Pops alone.
> 
> You're just pissed that I exercised patience and did my homework, and now your going to "make me wealthi*er*." than you were previously hoping for.  While I make your lying, cheating and dumping harder, Jethro.
> 
> I think now, while they're trying to tie up easements, permits, and loose ends, *and* most of the previous mineral right owners vs. current property ownership cases are winding down, *and* before your boss starts drilling and "gathers" my gas "accidentally",  it just might be time to invite your "land man"  to sit on my porch and enjoy a  nice cold glass of tea.








Dude, you are so full of poo it's not funny.  You are dealing with people who are really in the business, you CAN'T lie to them you idiot.


----------



## The Irish Ram

It's Dudette, and just what do you think I lied about?  The theft of royalty checks?  Intentional dumping?  Hiding well profits from landowners? Court cases?  What they are paying per acre?  Their ridiculous leases?  
What is it you think these good old boys know, that we haven't already already dealt with generation after generation?  What do you know about this area, past and present?  Are you "in the business" too on either end?  Are you suggesting that big business never lies and the courts are all getting it wrong?    Enlighten us as to your dealings with Chesapeake Gas and others..................... 

If they are the business and we are the ones dealing with them, where does your expertise enter the picture?  
Point out my lies and I'll see if there is any proof  that you've condemned the wrong party.  
Start with the gas company's hiding profits from landowners, and let's see if this is actually a real problem or if I made it up.


----------



## The Irish Ram

And *props* to H for pointing out the good to come from America relying on America, which I love.  And bad on me for only concentrating on the problems we are seeing.  

It's just we are a little more than skiddish.  Our *homes* are sitting on the surface of "these" particular oil fields.  
We want this to succeed.  We are all *pro* fracking here, wave the flag and love mom's apple pie.  We are happy we can help fuel this country and retain/regain our energy independent status.  
 But it's happiness wrapped in trepidation.  300 years ago my grandfather canoed down the creek in my yard.  I'd like for my grandchildren to have that same opportunity.  This *land* has supplemented our livelihoods for generations.  Putting it in harm's way is a scary thing for us.  

So, H is right, and if the gov. leaves it alone,  this could be a win win for us all. 
Love you H.  Your side of the coin is the one I want to see turned up.  
So let's get back on track:



> Charitable Giving and The Dominion Foundation
> Charitable giving and volunteerism are an integral part of Dominion&#8217;s commitment to the communities we serve. Principally through The Dominion Foundation, we contribute more than $20 million annually to non-profit organizations and schools in the states where we operate or the locations where we have significant facilities or business interests. Foundation grants are funded by shareholder dollars and are not borne by customers.


https://www.dom.com/about/community/charitable-giving-and-the-dominion-foundation.jsp


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> If amounts don't matter, you'd quit stealing all the royalty checks you owe the landowners, and hiding prolific wells, and saving a dime here and there by dumping toxic waste out of site somewhere.



I've never touched, interfered or kept a landowners royalty check in my life. Why don't you go tilt at an appropriate windmill?

And because you haven't signed an oil and gas lease, no one has withheld monies owed you either. 




			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> We *must* know what's of value.  It's what you want so badly.  Unless you're just "making people wealthy" out of the goodness of your itty bitty gas and oil heart.



It is business. The companies count on it being personal to you. But to them? It's business. The only thing we count on, is that landowners like you, they DON'T understand how we do it. Otherwise they wouldn't be shiftless, can't find a job in the oil field because they aren't smart enough, don't know what hard work is, and don't have the courage to stand up to the death and dismemberment which sometimes comes with the job.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> What you fail to appreciate is it's valuable to us too, and our children.



Sure it is important to you. And your children. Obviously you've already shown that you and the children who stick around don't have what it takes to leave and take your part in the real world and can only sit there drooling over an income coming in you don't have to work for....hillbilly nirvana. 

Enjoy.


----------



## The Irish Ram

I remember driving in a blizzard from Chicago, trying to get home to the Ohio Valley for Christmas break, and hearing from a New York station on the radio, that a gas explosion had taken place on a new building that a steel mill had built. How many causalities weren't known, just that there were causalities.  I had 4 cousins, 2 uncles, 1 grandfather, my daddy and my only brother wiring that building.  No phone calls could get through. 
You don't *know* heart gripping terror like that, you dainty little butt wipe. The men killed that day weren't dismembered, they were pulverized between concrete floors.

My sweet grandmother lost her Daddy when she was 14. He was crushed to death when a crane lost it's load.  We are acquainted with occupational hazards.  Never stopped anyone from heading off to work.  You don't seem to have what it takes though, opting for "conferring" with those who do put their lives on the line.  Pansy, from Appalachia. You just like to run your mouth.  

The "it's business", is what we protect ourselves *from*. And "it's business" fills our bank accounts.   We *know* "how you do it".  And we react accordingly.  
 When you willfully do it wrong,  we take you to court *and win.*  We cover all the bases with VGR.
That's how *we* do it.  

 The workers here get a full days labor in on the farm before your pansy rear end gets out of bed.  They can work your butt or kick your butt under the table and don't care which. That's how they do business.  

mmmm, BTR much?  I have two children, both grads and  both summa cum laude to boot. Don't live in the area, but are both extremely productive in their fields, being raised with a good work ethic. And they appreciate this area, for it's beauty and for being heirs to benefits their mama owns.  They aren't as dumb as you either. 

Speaking of income you don't have to work for,  have you ever bought a lottery ticket, before you leave the liquor store JGR?   Who do you think you'e kidding?
So give H back his thread, and get *your* whinny carcass  to bed so you can get up and write me a check.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> I remember driving in a blizzard from Chicago, trying to get home to the Ohio Valley for Christmas break, and hearing from a New York station on the radio, that a gas explosion had taken place on a new building that a steel mill had built. How many causalities weren't known, just that there were causalities.  I had 4 cousins, 2 uncles, 1 grandfather, my daddy and my only brother wiring that building.  No phone calls could get through.
> You don't *know* heart gripping terror like that, you dainty little butt wipe. The men killed that day weren't dismembered, they were pulverized between concrete floors.



And the same thing can happen to men in the oil field EVERY DAMN DAY. Not when some building occasionally fails, but EVERY DAMN DAY. Poison gas, falling steel, natural gas and oil blowouts turning everything on the drill floor into bullets, burning to death as the rig burns (you ever been caught on an offshore rig while it was on fire? I HAVE), and all to make sure that dumbass consumers can motor around in luxury whining about how they smart they are, doing their best to slow down or stop the same development which allows them to live a privileged lifestyle. You know...the kind which allows them to drive back and forth between Chicago and the Ohio Valley over Xmas break.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> We are acquainted with occupational hazards.  Never stopped anyone from heading off to work.  You don't seem to have what it takes though, opting for "conferring" with those who do put their lives on the line.  Pansy, from Appalachia. You just like to run your mouth.



You are acquainted with OCCASIONAL hazards, there is quite a difference. And the proof is in the taste of the pudding, YOU are the one who complained that your people aren't good enough to be hired in the oil field, I have just explained WHY. This pansy from Appalachia escaped the area because he was capable of being hired in, surviving in, and profiting in the oil business. Unlike all those you claim can't even get hired.

Suggestion: Teach your folks to grow their brains rather than their desire to sit around on their asses hoping for a windfall or disability check.



			
				The IrishRam said:
			
		

> The "it's business", is what we protect ourselves *from*. And "it's business" fills our bank accounts.   We *know* "how you do it".  And we react accordingly.
> When you willfully do it wrong,  we take you to court *and win.*  We cover all the bases with VGR.
> That's how *we* do it.



YOU don't do anything. YOU haven't signed a lease, so any credit you want to claim, you are claiming for others. Any beefs you have, you have to pretend you understand the stories of others because YOU haven't signed a lease.

You haven't even been TESTED as a natural gas royalty owner because YOU haven't signed the lease, and while trumpeting the successes and failure of others isn't a natural Appalachian characteristic, it is one of braggarts and blowhards. How we do it...you don't get to be part of WE because YOU HAVEN'T SIGNED THE LEASE.

Let us know when you do. Rube.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> The workers here get a full days labor in on the farm before your pansy rear end gets out of bed.  They can work your butt or kick your butt under the table and don't care which. That's how they do business.



and yet aren't even capable of working a tower in the oil field....versus how many years of experience in this those of us smart enough to flee Appalachia have? Let us know when those farmers prove they are as worthy as you claim and start working towers on a rig, let alone qualify as drillers, let alone run the rig, let alone manage the rig for the oil company, let alone are in charge of the capital investment for a years drilling budget. Get back to us when you even find one worthy of STARTING this sequence, let alone those of us who have run the board already.



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> mmmm, BTR much?  I have two children, both grads and  both summa cum laude to boot.



Good for you. Local union run public schools? So there you compete against local children, which as we already know in Appalachia means they have just proven they are smarter than hamsters...by a little. So grads are smarter than hamsters, this is good!

If you are talking about college, well, that might be different. You see once I fled Appalachia to schools elsewhere I learned quick to not go back, your kids come back after college and work on the farm? And let me guess, summa cum laude in fields of value, or yet more union backed, politically protected and incompetent teachers, designed to build more rubes like you and your farmer friends?



			
				TheIrishRam said:
			
		

> So give H back his thread, and get *your* whinny carcass  to bed so you can get up and write me a check.



Never wrote a check to a landowner in my life either. So tell me Irish, how many times did you have to repeat grades in school before you ever learned what the "slightly smarter than hamster" teachers actually told you?


----------



## Chuckt

The Irish Ram said:


> They would have loved it more, if I hadn't held out.
> If amounts don't matter, you'd quit stealing all the royalty checks you owe the landowners, and hiding prolific wells, and saving a dime here and there by dumping toxic waste out of site somewhere.



I have no opinion on the matter.  I just saw this news article and wanted for you to be informed.



> Has fracking contaminated drinking water? A Duke University study says its wastewater wasn't adequately treated before being released into a Pennsylvania river, causing elevated levels of radioactivity.



Fracking linked to radioactive river water in Pa.


----------



## The Irish Ram

I know.  It's a real crap shoot.  
Companies have always been extracting something from this area.  Most tried to be responsible about it, and were diligent in the past, but this time around it's a whole different ruthless ball game.  It's not the accidents that worry us as much as it is the wanton destruction of our land that has us fighting back. 
 It's this:


> "*What's lacking is enforced monitoring*," Vengosh says, noting that the samples collected by Duke suggest that radioactive water *was still being discharged* in 2012.



I wish they'd confer with someone concerning good faith and corporate responsibility.    We're doing *our* part.


----------



## RGR

Chuckt said:


> I have no opinion on the matter.  I just saw this news article and wanted for you to be informed.



Irish isn't interested in "informed", only getting while the getting is good. Certainly it isn't as though she has much in the way of economic prospects based on her abilities, training or experience.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> I know.  It's a real crap shoot.
> Companies have always been extracting something from this area.  Most tried to be responsible about it, and were diligent in the past, but this time around it's a whole different ruthless ball game.



Yes, those "responsible" other folks. How very selective you are in your memory Irish. Here is what those responsible folks leave behind....decades after they leave....

As coal mine smolders, U.S. town lingers | Reuters

versus how the oil and gas industry handles its extraction techniques....

Damn! What a mess! And not even on fire after a few decades!


----------



## The Irish Ram

My memories are fine.  I drive by old strip pits all the time.  All reclaimed and looking like the rest of the rolling hills.  Can't even tell they were here.  They had the corporate responsibility of leaving us unharmed also, and *they* were diligent in their efforts.  Which is why we're tolerant of *accidents* or industry related mishaps.   

The gas build up under the steel mill building that blew the concrete floor and the men standing on it right through the concrete ceiling above was a tragic accident.  We didn't scream foul.  There were no picket signs, or meetings with the President in Washington.  We didn't try to close steel mills down because of a potential danger.   We buried our dead and went back to work.  

The picture you posted is lovely and what we hope for concerning the gas and oil industry.  See that picture?  It's proof that you don't *have* to destroy our property to be productive.  Nor do you have to lie about well production, or steal our share of the profits, or dump your waste in the woods behind that site.  
 Fast forward a few decades and that is exactly what you are doing.  A few decades ago, you had scruples.  You've replaced them with dollar signs.  What you do is take it all and give back what you're forced to through litigation.

Shall we discuss your business ethics, concerning elderly Ken Buell's farm?  Yeah, *that* one!   
Considering the whopper you hit on his land, (did you voice your disdain for coal's shoddy workmanship to N. American Coal Co. when you bought their mineral lease to that land, Faust?)  never contacting Ken about your plans for *his* property, showing up unannounced, helping yourself to the surface of his land to plop down your well, *and locking the gate to his property behind you*  was pretty ruthless and sadly typical.  It's why we don't like you very much.  
Did you cry when you had to take the lock off?  Disturbing how you get attached to things that aren't yours.  You, who resents our royalty checks as money we didn't have to work for.
For every well pic you parade, I can counter with pics from the dark side of how you do business.  We are giving you our gas and oil, you are giving us unnecessary destruction and grief.  And then begrudgingly settling  *after* we haul your nasty butt into court.  
There is an easier way.  It's called shared responsibility. < (bet *that *just made your skin crawl) 
Our gas, our oil, our coal, is what our country needs. Stop trying to screw us for offering it, or we may quit offering it.


----------



## Mr. H.

Shale development big boost for steel industry - Pittsburgh Business Times

_Robert F. Powelson said that Marcellus Shale development has been like spraying WD-40 on the region's rust-belt economy.

Powelson, chairman of the Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission, and representatives from the North American steel industry were on hand Monday at the Consumer Energy Alliance's Energy and Manufacturing Summit to discuss the opportunity natural gas is bringing to the domestic steel industry._


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> The picture you posted is lovely and what we hope for concerning the gas and oil industry.  See that picture?  It's proof that you don't *have* to destroy our property to be productive.



Of course it is. Just like I've been telling you. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Nor do you have to lie about well production, or steal our share of the profits, or dump your waste in the woods behind that site.



Considering that none of those things have happened to you, you are whistling past a graveyard. Oil and gas production is reported to the state and not telling the truth has penalties, what you are getting isn't called "profit" because you don't have the brains or ability to work in the oil and gas business, as you have already stated. You just happen to be the person who owns something that you aren't smart enough to get for yourself. Profit implies you could run the business, and as you have explained, you and the locals can't. And I have filled in the "why" in this regard.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> For every well pic you parade, I can counter with pics from the dark side of how you do business.



Do as you wish. And apparently not a single one of them will be on your land, because you don't have a lease. You have no experience with anything in this regard, and should therefore stop pretending you do, the stories of others certainly constituting the type of heresy that even lawyers are smart enough to not allow into  courtroom.

Them knowing the tendency of rubes to gossip inaccurately as well as oilmen do.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Our gas, our oil, our coal, is what our country needs.



Absolutely. But we certainly don't need amateur locals genetically predisposed towards farming since inbred down even further and those who remained trained in a substandard unionized public educational system without the work ethic to even be able to get a job in the industry, let alone manage and run it, (and in your case with ZERO experience with oil and gas leasing because you haven't signed it yet) pretending you know anything about how to do this work.

You have already shown why you and your neighbors aren't qualified. So take your money rube, knowing that it certainly isn't something you could have ever earned through talent, training, or ability.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> Shale development big boost for steel industry - Pittsburgh Business Times
> 
> _Robert F. Powelson said that Marcellus Shale development has been like spraying WD-40 on the region's rust-belt economy.
> 
> Powelson, chairman of the Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission, and representatives from the North American steel industry were on hand Monday at the Consumer Energy Alliance's Energy and Manufacturing Summit to discuss the opportunity natural gas is bringing to the domestic steel industry._



That would be a big deal in this area H.  We just had an aluminum mill close because of skyrocketing electric costs.  And Obama is killing the coal industry.  So we're hoping the gas boom will level the playing field in this area that took such a hit because of NAFTA. Gas and oil  has been a blessing for small business here.  We're feeding, and housing workers and catering to their needs.  It is a temporary boom that will lessen and then disappear as workers finish up the manual labor and move on.  We need a long term plan that the whole country can benefit from.  United Sates producing steel would be one such plan.  We could use our gas to produce our steel and export *that* instead of our energy source.
*This* country should benefit from an energy source that is home grown and affordable.  Unfortunately, that depends on our gov. as well, and they rarely do anything that benefits us these days.
I'm concerned about the government's increasing urge to export our gas before it's even out of the ground.  China is already profiting, instead of us, from our coal energy we aren't allowed to use any more.  They are using it to make the cheap quality steel we're buying.  They have also bought out a third of Chesapeake Gas, and Europe wants a chunk too.  Exporting our gas is going to raise the price of it for consumers here.  It would be a shame for us to take the environmental hit, so other countries can reap the benefits.  Since our Gov. is taking the stand that everything we have is a gift from them, we might want to remind them that charity begins at home:
U.S. steps up natural gas exports - Jun. 4, 2013


----------



## Mr. Sauerkraut

After you let them poison your lakes, rivers, seas, food and children, you let them poison the ground where you live. I can´t understand that. Why do you give all this power to Monsanto, Haliburton, Goldman Sachs, McKinsey and so on? What will you let them do next? They will never stop until YOU stop them.


----------



## Mr. H.

Mr. Sauerkraut said:


> After you let them poison your lakes, rivers, seas, food and children, you let them poison the ground where you live. I can´t understand that. Why do you give all this power to Monsanto, Haliburton, Goldman Sachs, McKinsey and so on? What will you let them do next? They will never stop until YOU stop them.



LOL that's a stretch. 

Any comment on the agriculture industry and its contributions? 
From "Big Ag" right down to the small mom-and-pop farm?

They are all the true usurpers of ecology and environment alike.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mom and Pop usurp the environment how again?  Are our cows really as flatulent as you've been lead to believe?  Do we not rotate our crops and rest and replenish our fields?  
Monsanto is feeding you poisoned crops and genetically engineered garbage, not us.  Geeze.


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> Mom and Pop usurp the environment how again?  Are our cows really as flatulent as you've been lead to believe?  Do we not rotate our crops and rest and replenish our fields?
> Monsanto is feeding you poisoned crops and genetically engineered garbage, not us.  Geeze.



Everyone in agriculture should be held accountable and responsible. A single cow, a single chicken, a 20 acre plot of corn... all contribute to our environment's degradation. 
Farmers and ranchers, large and small are all culpable.

That's how it works in the hydrocarbon industries, so suck up and take it.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mom and Pop usurp the environment how again?  Are our cows really as flatulent as you've been lead to believe?  Do we not rotate our crops and rest and replenish our fields?
> Monsanto is feeding you poisoned crops and genetically engineered garbage, not us.  Geeze.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone in agriculture should be held accountable and responsible. A single cow, a single chicken, a 20 acre plot of corn... all contribute to our environment's degradation.
> Farmers and ranchers, large and small are all culpable.
> 
> That's how it works in the hydrocarbon industries, so suck up and take it.
Click to expand...


You suck it up.   I'll be sucking it soon enough as a larger implication of fracking. 



> Methane leaks could negate climate benefits of US natural gas boom: report
> 
> Reduction in carbon emissions triggered by America's shift from coal to gas is being offset by a sharp rise in methane


Methane leaks could negate climate benefits of US natural gas boom: report | Environment | theguardian.com

Be nice to our German friend, he'll be profiting from our gas soon too.  *They aren't buying it as our export * at export prices that would benefit our country.  No.  *They are buying our gas, * in the ground, at rock bottom prices and taking it from there, literally. And will be selling it back to us at necessary skyrocketing prices.

Foreign Firms Tap U.S. Gas Bonanza - WSJ.com


----------



## Mr. H.

You poor deluded moron.


----------



## The Irish Ram

You just don't want to look any further than your furnace.


----------



## Mr. H.

I look below the surface, to the source. It's my job.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> I look below the surface, to the source. It's my job.



And our job is to mitigate damage to the source.  

Fracking implications include the good and the bad.  You focus on the good which is ok, but it's ok to explore what is happening that isn't so good: 

Much of the land here was leased to coal companies previously.  Most of these old leases state that if there is a lack of activity after X amount of time that the mineral rights revert back to the landowner and the lease is void.  Also, these leases cover operations conducted by *coal mining*.  *Fracking* isn't addressed or agreed to in those old leases.  

The Gas companies are buying these old coal leases and taking advantage of the lack of *gas* operating restrictions in them to waltz onto to people's property and take over.  Not below the surface, ALL of it.   We're sick of the sneaking, lying opportunists taking whatever they want and us having to sue them to get it stopped.    

Hess is involved in a plethora of these lawsuits.  They are taking unfair advantage of the land owners, by thinking that an old lease between a landowner and a coal company gives *them* carte blanche  to anything and everything they can get their hands on. 

*At the land owners expense,* *again*, Hess has been told otherwise in court.   It's tonight's lead story on the 11 pm news. If the fracking implications are as rosy as you seem to think, why do they keep losing in court? This decision is a big one for landowners.   I'll let you know the details after the news.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look below the surface, to the source. It's my job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And our job is to mitigate damage to the source.
Click to expand...


You don't have any job related to the oil and gas extraction business, and your locals aren't capable of even participating, they are that limited in their job skills. You said so yourself.

So you can't mitigate, don't understand mitigate, and are incapable of participating in any way other than as a lottery winner. And YOU haven't even been able to do that yet. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Hess is involved in a plethora of these lawsuits.  They are taking unfair advantage of the land owners, by thinking that an old lease between a landowner and a coal company gives *them* carte blanche  to anything and everything they can get their hands on.



That would depend on the lease. And oil companies are always being sued by the rubes, the kind looking for the same lottery winnings you are. And you have no experience whatsoever about what they want to get their hands on because you haven't signed the lease yet.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> If the fracking implications are as rosy as you seem to think, why do they keep losing in court?



Your incoherence on what constitutes "losing" is almost as amusing as what you think fracking is about. If I short your landowner check by $100, and you "win" $50 of it back by me "losing" a lawsuit, who exactly do you think "lost", rube?


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look below the surface, to the source. It's my job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And our job is to mitigate damage to the source.
> 
> Fracking implications include the good and the bad.  You focus on the good which is ok, but it's ok to explore what is happening that isn't so good:
> 
> Much of the land here was leased to coal companies previously.  Most of these old leases state that if there is a lack of activity after X amount of time that the mineral rights revert back to the landowner and the lease is void.  Also, these leases cover operations conducted by *coal mining*.  *Fracking* isn't addressed or agreed to in those old leases.
> 
> The Gas companies are buying these old coal leases and taking advantage of the lack of *gas* operating restrictions in them to waltz onto to people's property and take over.  Not below the surface, ALL of it.   We're sick of the sneaking, lying opportunists taking whatever they want and us having to sue them to get it stopped.
> 
> Hess is involved in a plethora of these lawsuits.  They are taking unfair advantage of the land owners, by thinking that an old lease between a landowner and a coal company gives *them* carte blanche  to anything and everything they can get their hands on.
> 
> *At the land owners expense,* *again*, Hess has been told otherwise in court.   It's tonight's lead story on the 11 pm news. If the fracking implications are as rosy as you seem to think, why do they keep losing in court? This decision is a big one for landowners.   I'll let you know the details after the news.
Click to expand...


You are dangerously stupid. As are the remainder of the anti-fracing ilk. 

Film at 11? LOL

I'll wait up for ya.


----------



## The Irish Ram

RGR said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look below the surface, to the source. It's my job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And our job is to mitigate damage to the source.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't have any job related to the oil and gas extraction business, and your locals aren't capable of even participating, they are that limited in their job skills. You said so yourself.
> 
> So you can't mitigate, don't understand mitigate, and are incapable of participating in any way other than as a lottery winner. And YOU haven't even been able to do that yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hess is involved in a plethora of these lawsuits.  They are taking unfair advantage of the land owners, by thinking that an old lease between a landowner and a coal company gives *them* carte blanche  to anything and everything they can get their hands on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would depend on the lease. And oil companies are always being sued by the rubes, the kind looking for the same lottery winnings you are. And you have no experience whatsoever about what they want to get their hands on because you haven't signed the lease yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the fracking implications are as rosy as you seem to think, why do they keep losing in court?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your incoherence on what constitutes "losing" is almost as amusing as what you think fracking is about. If I short your landowner check by $100, and you "win" $50 of it back by me "losing" a lawsuit, who exactly do you think "lost", rube?
Click to expand...


Good thing you are a pretend scientist as opposed to a pretend mathematician.  We are talking $50 +millions and millions. 

And I don't know why you think being knowledgeable about our business affairs can only occur *after* we sign, but it has turned out prudence and patience was the smart move to make.   

Same leases, different viewpoint.  The courts think that old, idle coal leases are no longer in effect and that the gas companies need to negotiate with the *owners* of the property, not the previous renters of it.   

And because you keep saying that I said the local workers here aren't qualified, I am setting the record straight.  "They can work or kick your butt under the table, and don't care which",  *is what I said* about the more than capable workers here.  

And lastly,
It's not me that hit the lottery BTR.  We *are* the lottery! Whether we allow you to buy a ticket or not depends on your behavior.


----------



## Mr. H.

AFTER you sign, you are on your own you stupid fuck.


----------



## Mr. H.

The whore speaks.


----------



## The Irish Ram

That's real nice H.  
We *were* on our own, now we have the courts siding with us.  *The fracking and stealing is just that bad: *



> Hess plans challenge of ruling on leases
> September 30, 2013
> 
> U.S. District Judge Algenon L. Marbley in Columbus ruled that a lease executed in 2007 on a 228-acre dairy farm in Jefferson County had effectively lapsed because there had been no wells drilled or gas produced, leaving the property owners free to negotiate with other companies should they so choose.



We are starting to be protected by the courts.  Which means this landowner isn't on her own after she signs, after all.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Good thing you are a pretend scientist as opposed to a pretend mathematician.  We are talking $50 +millions and millions.



Did 15 years as scientist, not much pretend about it. 10+ years as industry petroleum engineer. Hardly need your validation on my resume. If I want to know something about baking a cake involving squirrel meat, I'll be sure to ask you about that. Certainly you haven't demonstrated intrinsic or trained knowledge on any other topic than that your environment would have inflicted of all you without the skills or brains to flee Appalachia. 




			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> And I don't know why you think being knowledgeable about our business affairs can only occur *after* we sign, but it has turned out prudence and patience was the smart move to make.



I don't need to know anything about your business affairs. I know what you have told us, and what you have told us proves that H can call you names because he can stop the likes of you as easily as I can.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> And because you keep saying that I said the local workers here aren't qualified, I am setting the record straight.  "They can work or kick your butt under the table, and don't care which",  *is what I said* about the more than capable workers here.



You said they can't get work on the rigs or in the boom caused by the drilling. I have explained why, from the perspective of someone who did EXACTLY what your friends and neighbors CAN'T. According to you.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> The whore speaks.



Now Mr H. Just because she is the prototypical rube in the oil business, that doesn't make her a whore. More likely she has been brought low by her genetics, and what that means to others of her...ilk.


----------



## The Irish Ram

That's pretty sick.  Grow up.


----------



## Mr. H.

*Oil boom impacting the world*

Oil boom impacting the world - MinotDailyNews.com | News, sports, business, jobs - Minot Daily News

_North Dakota has quickly ascended through the ranks of oil-producing states, passing every state along the way except Texas. Now the ongoing Bakken formation boom is helping the *United States become the world's largest producer of oil and natural gas*._


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> That's pretty sick.  Grow up.



I tell it like it is Rube. The main clue being your enthusiasm over the idea of having people hand you money without having to work for it. Not a seconds thought for what hard work means, or the value of the rewards gained from it beyond cash. That fits in perfect with what unions push, those getting their kids listed as disabled to get the government social security checks, those claiming workers comp three days after starting a new job, and fitting in in Appalachia.

It all tells a story, and can be spotted a mile away by those of us who grew up around those kinds of folks. Leopard can't change its spots Rube.


----------



## The Irish Ram

What's the matter, tired of getting your butt handed to you by Flac and Dave?  

If someone offered you a boat load of money would you take it? And if *you*'re the smart one here, why *aren't* they making you rich on the property that *you invested in * ??????

 Was immaturity a must have for what you pretend to do? Because scientists who sit around all day looking for pics on the net aren't very useful and probably don't get paid much.

Go whine on flac's thread and give this one back to H.  You loon.


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> What's the matter, tired of getting your butt handed to you by Flac and Dave?
> 
> If someone offered you a boat load of money would you take it? And if *you*'re the smart one here, why *aren't* they making you rich on the property that *you invested in * ??????
> 
> Was immaturity a must have for what you pretend to do? Because scientists who sit around all day looking for pics on the net aren't very useful and probably don't get paid much.
> 
> Go whine on flac's thread and give this one back to H.  You loon.



Ma'am, you seem to me to be confused over contract law. I'd suggest you either seek legal counsel or refer yourself to mental health services.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> What's the matter, tired of getting your butt handed to you by Flac and Dave?



Are you kidding? We have an ongoing experiment to try out, maybe they win, maybe I do, certainly only an ignoramus would assume anyone has won yet. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> If someone offered you a boat load of money would you take it?



Hey, I'm just as happy winning the lottery as anyone else. But it is the likes of you, who act as though the act of winning the lottery improves you as a person, THAT is the giveaway.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> And if *you*'re the smart one here, why *aren't* they making you rich on the property that *you invested in * ??????



"They" can't make me rich, for the brain dead, and those with reading comprehension problems (or Appalachian folks), because I don't work for "them".

The investments I choose to make with the dollars I do earn from work are doing quite nicely thank you.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Was immaturity a must have for what you pretend to do?



I became mature when I was kicked out of the house at 18. And if I "pretended" to work, the folks I work for wouldn't find it any more acceptable than the oil industry does the ability of local labor in your area.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> Because scientists who sit around all day looking for pics on the net aren't very useful and probably don't get paid much.



I am not a scientist any more. That was Career #2. I am currently in Career #3. As far as what petroleum engineers with 3 decades of experience might make? Yes, you are right, we are all poverty stricken.


----------



## The Irish Ram

> the folks I work for


would probably like for you to quit posting and show up......


----------



## The Irish Ram

Mr. H. said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the matter, tired of getting your butt handed to you by Flac and Dave?
> 
> If someone offered you a boat load of money would you take it? And if *you*'re the smart one here, why *aren't* they making you rich on the property that *you invested in * ??????
> 
> Was immaturity a must have for what you pretend to do? Because scientists who sit around all day looking for pics on the net aren't very useful and probably don't get paid much.
> 
> Go whine on flac's thread and give this one back to H.  You loon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ma'am, you seem to me to be confused over contract law. I'd suggest you either seek legal counsel or refer yourself to mental health services.
Click to expand...


Ma'am.  That's nicer.  
We deal with contracts from various companies, depending on what resource they are after.  We use specialized legal firms depending on what company it is.

The ones with the contract problems are the gas and oil companies.  They think they can buy up old coal leases and frack under strip mining contracts.  They are two completely different processes.  
The courts feel the gas and oil companies need to seek the approval of the landowners and work *with them* to set the guidelines that the companies need to follow concerning the land they'd like to lease. 
Up until now, it would be the same if you came home and found me with a metal detector and a saw, tearing up your living room floor to see if there's any gold under there, after I changed the locks so you couldn't stop me.   What is ok about that?

You labeled me anti-fracking, and I'm not. Whether I owned resource rich land or not,  I'm for anything that benefits this country.  
But I don't get why you think that if Chesapeake or others locate gas or oil on property they don't own, it automatically should belong to them.  Does your living room, or what's underneath it  belong to me?


----------



## Mr. H.

The Irish Ram said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the matter, tired of getting your butt handed to you by Flac and Dave?
> 
> If someone offered you a boat load of money would you take it? And if *you*'re the smart one here, why *aren't* they making you rich on the property that *you invested in * ??????
> 
> Was immaturity a must have for what you pretend to do? Because scientists who sit around all day looking for pics on the net aren't very useful and probably don't get paid much.
> 
> Go whine on flac's thread and give this one back to H.  You loon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ma'am, you seem to me to be confused over contract law. I'd suggest you either seek legal counsel or refer yourself to mental health services.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ma'am.  That's nicer.
> We deal with contracts from various companies, depending on what resource they are after.  We use specialized legal firms depending on what company it is.
> 
> The ones with the contract problems are the gas and oil companies.  They think they can buy up old coal leases and frack under strip mining contracts.  They are two completely different processes.
> The courts feel the gas and oil companies need to seek the approval of the landowners and work *with them* to set the guidelines that the companies need to follow concerning the land they'd like to lease.
> Up until now, it would be the same if you came home and found me with a metal detector and a saw, tearing up your living room floor to see if there's any gold under there, after I changed the locks so you couldn't stop me.   What is ok about that?
> 
> You labeled me anti-fracking, and I'm not. Whether I owned resource rich land or not,  I'm for anything that benefits this country.
> But I don't get why you think that if Chesapeake or others locate gas or oil on property they don't own, it automatically should belong to them.  Does your living room, or what's underneath it  belong to me?
Click to expand...


Then consult the coal leases, if that is your root issue. I do respectfully submit that you are a whiney little bitch.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Why?  What part of strip mining covers fracking or it's implications?  Then there is the inactivity clause, that the gas companies just choose to over look.  

So would *you* object to me changing the locks on your property because *I* would rather own it than you?  You wouldn't whine would you?   It's what's best for the country..........


----------



## Mr. H.

Read the fine print on the up-front you hapless bitch. 

I mean really get a grip.


----------



## Mr. H.

In my 36 years in this industry, I have never seen an unsolvable problem, no matter how complex. 

You, on the other hand, are your biggest problem. 

Take a nap and call me in the morning. 

Sheesh!


----------



## The Irish Ram

What problem do you think I have, cause I seem to be doing very well.....  
Being pro fracking and pro making money and pro owning gas and oil someone wants, is a very good position to be in.  
You keep skipping over the issues that you don't want to address. Issues that *won't* be effecting me, as I didn't rush into signing up.    I fully intend to lease my property, with better leverage, a more concise contract, and making it more than clear about what land they are leasing and more importantly, what land they aren't. 
As for unsolvable problems, no matter how complex Chesapeake tries to make them, our courts are simplifying things for them.  
Just what is it that I have done that you can find fault with?


----------



## Mr. H.

Your previous posts. 

Now if you could all cease in shitting on my thread, I'd greatly appreciate that.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Didn't mean to shit on your rainbow and unicorn thread about the Implications of Fracking.  
One biased side of the story is good,  I guess.


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - North Dakota Oil Output Could Hit 1 MMbod by Year-End

NEW YORK, Oct 15 (Reuters) - _Oil production in North Dakota, home to the prolific Bakken formation, could hit 1 million barrels per day (bpd) as early as at the end of this year, the head of the state's Mineral Resources Department said on Tuesday. Data issued by the department on Tuesday showed production rose 35,000 bpd in August to more than 910,000 bpd, a fresh all-time high that far exceeds an official forecast used by the state's budget of 850,000 bpd by the end of the year. _


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> But I don't get why you think that if Chesapeake or others locate gas or oil on property they don't own, it automatically should belong to them.  Does your living room, or what's underneath it  belong to me?



Jesus are you ignorant. Stop proving it already, we already know.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> What problem do you think I have, cause I seem to be doing very well.....



Compared to who? The lobotomized?



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> As for unsolvable problems, no matter how complex Chesapeake tries to make them, our courts are simplifying things for them.
> Just what is it that I have done that you can find fault with?



You haven't signed the lease yet, so you don't even have the right (let alone any experience) to base your whining upon.


----------



## Mr. H.

RGR said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I don't get why you think that if Chesapeake or others locate gas or oil on property they don't own, it automatically should belong to them.  Does your living room, or what's underneath it  belong to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus are you ignorant. Stop proving it already, we already know.
Click to expand...


Her name is The Irish Ram. Don't go beatifying her just yet. You'll blow her cover.


----------



## Mr. H.

Hot diggity...

North Dakota hits record oil and gas production again - Energy Ticker - MarketWatch

_Another month, another record oil and gas production for North Dakota.

The state&#8217;s Department of Mineral Resources said Tuesday North Dakota produced an average of 911,242 barrels of oil a day in August, from an average of 875,736 barrels a day in July &#8212; the previous record.

Two years ago, North Dakota pumped on average a little over 446,000 barrels of oil a day.

The state produced an average of 1 million cubic feet a day in natural gas in August, up from 972,058 cubic feet a day in July, also the previous record._


----------



## Wake

One of the clients I cared for was a wealthy stock broker. He interested me in investing and the stock market. He's 95 and sharp as a tack, and I'm a young buck at 25. So, he taught me quite a bit and got me interested in fracking, silver, and bonds. He advised me that fracking is a promising investment option, and I want to start as young as possible on Scottrade. A lot of you guys are in the know. What do you think, please?


----------



## Mr. H.

Wake said:


> One of the clients I cared for was a wealthy stock broker. He interested me in investing and the stock market. He's 95 and sharp as a tack, and I'm a young buck at 25. So, he taught me quite a bit and got me interested in fracking, silver, and bonds. He advised me that fracking is a promising investment option, and I want to start as young as possible on Scottrade. A lot of you guys are in the know. What do you think, please?



Do your homework. Find out who the players are. Subscribe to daily email feeds from RIGZONE - Your Gateway to the Oil & Gas Industry and read such publications as The American Oil and Gas Reporter, E&P, Oil and Gas Journal, World Oil. May the force be with you.


----------



## Mr. H.

[MENTION=44124]Wake[/MENTION] there is another publication called Oil and Gas Financial Journal
Oil & Gas Financial Journal - Covering Oil and Gas Markets, Prices, Companies and Stocks

In the meantime... THIS is what our country needs- massive spending by industry. 

RIGZONE - Massive Spending Ahead As Industry Develops US Shale

THIS is economic development, jobs, GDP, growth... not the squandering bullshit maneuvers that Obama has been leading us through for the past 5 years.


----------



## Mr. H.

5 Unexpected Benefits for America From the Natural Gas Boom


----------



## Mr. H.

Is Ohio the Next Texas?


----------



## RGR

Ohio isn't going to be the next Texas, it just doesn't have the size. But I could also argue the only reason Texas production exists is because of the Middle East of the 19th Century...Ohio, Wet Virginia and Pennsylvania. Ohio was in the forefront,and led the way!


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - US Shale Boom Will Boost LPG Exports and Bring Down Prices

_A U.S. energy drilling boom is revolutionizing the niche market for liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), bringing down global prices and challenging established exporters in the Middle East. The changes are the latest sign of the global impact of a drilling renaissance in the United States that has already hit oil and natural gas. And like oil and gas, it is U.S. producers of LPG who are set to gain most while established exporters may struggle with new competition in a suddenly altered landscape. _


----------



## Mr. H.

U.S. to Be Top Oil Producer by 2015 on Shale Boom, IEA Says - SFGate

Nov. 12 (Bloomberg) -- _The U.S. will surpass Russia and Saudi Arabia as the world&#8217;s top oil producer by 2015, and be close to energy self-sufficiency in the next two decades, amid booming output from shale formations, the IEA said._


----------



## Mr. H.

All hail shale. 

Chemistry World. 

_The US shale gas boom has continued to drive recovery for the country&#8217;s chemical industry this year. Access to cheap feedstocks and energy has allowed US producers to compete strongly in the global market, transforming the country from a net importer of chemicals in 2011 to a net exporter, and attracting investment from both domestic and international companies in the form of new plants to take advantage of the plentiful resources._

All hail shale | Chemistry World


----------



## Mr. H.

Plastics Grow In Stride With Shale Development / ideastream - Northeast Ohio Public Radio, Television and Multiple Media

_McMullen says ongoing production in the Utica and Marcellus shale plays may transform the North American chemical and plastics industry significantly.  He says chemical companies in the U.S. and elsewhere are revisiting their investment plans in American manufacturing._


----------



## initforme

I'm all for tracking because its nowhere located within 50 miles of my house.  Make that 200 miles.   Anything closer I would have to be a cog in the wheel.


----------



## Mr. H.

US chemical industry invest $100 bn due to shale gas boom | Business Standard

_ According to the American Chemistry Council (ACC), potential US chemical industry investment linked to plentiful and affordable natural gas and natural gas liquids from shale formations has topped $100 billion._


----------



## Wake

I could trade some shares in fracking...

...not sure which companies would be good ones to trade.


----------



## ScienceRocks

Did you know that the r@d for fracking was funded partly from the government...Certainly the private sector did fund some of it but at one time the private oil corporations didn't think was worth that kind of investment.

Another success story


----------



## RGR

Matthew said:


> Did you know that the r@d for fracking was funded partly from the government...Certainly the private sector did fund some of it but at one time the private oil corporations didn't think was worth that kind of investment.
> 
> Another success story



Really? Can you reference the government R&D project during the Truman administration which made it possible?


----------



## Mr. H.

North Dakota wants you: New campaign seeks to fill 20,000 jobs

20,000 jobs. 

_In a new recruiting campaign to be rolled out in May, the North Dakota Economic Development Foundation is aiming to fill more than 20,000 jobs -- ranging from truck drivers and oilfield workers to receptionists and food servers.

North Dakota's huge oil boom has spurred thousands of job seekers to flock to the state for years now. In some cities, the population has quadrupled.

Yet, the growth continues and companies are still so desperate for workers that the state is teaming up with oil giant Hess Corp. to launch an $800,000 campaign to attract new talent._

Private enterprise has done in short order what Obama has failed to do in 5 years time.


----------



## DriftingSand

Mr. H. said:


> I could have buried this in one of the many existing threads on Fracking, but it deserves it's own look.
> 
> The article touches on the effects of increased U.S. natural gas production in far-flung parts of the world including the Middle East, China, Russia, Venezuela, etc.
> 
> *U.S. Shale Boom Reduces Russian Influence Over European Gas Market*
> 
> _The U.S. shale gas boom has not only virtually eliminated the need for U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports for at least two decades, but significantly reduced Russias influence over the European natural gas market and "diminished the petro-power" of major gas producers in the Middle East and Venezuela._
> 
> *And here's the kicker*- Obama's proposed tax policies are directed at bringing the American oil and natural gas industries to it's knees:
> 
> _Changes to U.S. tax policy for upstream oil and gas, including proposed changes to expensing rules, investment credits, and/or royalty rates, could also make shale exploration and production unprofitable at current prices._



Well ... we already know that Obama is a horse's ass so I won't address his hatred for affluence, freedom, and national prosperity.  

That said, if we take advantage of our (America's) oil reserves we will pay our way out of debt in very short order. We will put 10s of thousands of America to work in high paying jobs.  Many smaller businesses will benefit (supply houses, tool shops, welders, etc.) as well.  We will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.  We will once again become the world's lender instead of grovelling borrower.  Our infrastructure will be rebuilt and improved with the tax revenue and our economic well-being will put smiles on our faces.


----------



## elektra

Geothermal requires fracking.


----------



## Mr. H.

Woman chases oil boom, strikes it big

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/woman-chases-oil-boom-strikes-095900739.html

_In 2010, Amy Savage migrated from her native Michigan to western Pennsylvania, chasing the Marcellus Shale boom._

_The conservative Manhattan Institute estimates that 20,000 small and midsized firms related to the oil industry have injected $300 to $400 billion into the U.S. economy over the last few years._


----------



## Mr. H.

Oil boom ramps up heavy-duty truck sales

Youngstown News, Oil boom ramps up heavy-duty truck sales


----------



## Mr. H.

Eagle Ford Gas Draws Steelmakers to Texas' Coastal Bend - See more at: RIGZONE - Eagle Ford Gas Draws Steelmakers to Texas' Coastal Bend

_Lured by the region's growing port facilities and ready availability of cheap natural gas from the prolific Eagle Ford Shale play, two foreign-owned firms are bringing a newcomer  iron and steel manufacturing  into the Coastal Bend's economic fold. _


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Kemp: US Oil Reserves Highest Since 1970s

LONDON, April 11 (Reuters) &#8211; _U.S. exploration and production companies are finding accumulations of crude and condensates twice as fast as they are producing them, according to statistics published on Thursday.

Proved reserves of crude stood at 30.5 billion barrels at the start of 2013.

If condensates are included, proved reserves reached 33.4 billion barrels, the highest since 1976, according to a new report from the U.S. Energy Information Administration ("U.S. crude oil and natural gas reserves proved reserves" April 10)._


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Kemp: US Oil Reserves Highest Since 1970s

LONDON, April 11 (Reuters)  _U.S. exploration and production companies are finding accumulations of crude and condensates twice as fast as they are producing them, according to statistics published on Thursday.

Proved reserves of crude stood at 30.5 billion barrels at the start of 2013.

If condensates are included, proved reserves reached 33.4 billion barrels, the highest since 1976, according to a new report from the U.S. Energy Information Administration ("U.S. crude oil and natural gas reserves proved reserves" April 10)._


----------



## RGR

What fracking has given America.

EIA AEO 2014 resource scenarios released this week. Figure IF2-1 being of importance.

U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Pub


----------



## initforme

Well I hope the tracking companies are better than Chevron.  They had a natural gas well explode and kill one worker.  This was in Pennsylvania.  SO what did they do?  They bought pizza and soda for the people around there?  They SO care about people.   What a truly sickening cheap nasty apology.  I don't think tracking would be that bad just make sure nobody lives within 30 miles or so of the sight.  Make sure nobody's drinking water is within 50 miles of the tracking site.   Then it would be fine.


----------



## Mr. H.

Decreased Oil and Gas Imports Keep Trade Deficit in Line

_Additional oil and gas production and shipments explain why the trade deficit has held steady or even improved over the past couple of years..._


----------



## Dot Com

someone is spazzing. I notice that your OP, from > 2 yrs ago mentions shipping LNG to Europe HOWEVER it STILL isn't being fully utilized? Why is that?


----------



## Mr. H.

Dot Com said:


> someone is spazzing. I notice that your OP, from > 2 yrs ago mentions shipping LNG to Europe HOWEVER it STILL isn't being fully utilized? Why is that?



Gosh darn you are observant. 

As you can see here, there are about 30 pending LNG export applications - two of which have been approved.

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/Summary of LNG Export Applications.pdf

This piece posits "protectionist views"...

RealClearEnergy - Why Are We Dragging Our Feet on LNG?

A view from an MA Democrat...

U.S. senator launches bill to go slow on LNG exports despite Ukraine | Reuters

Years of delay by the Energy Department? 

The U.S. lags on natural gas exports while Russia continues to dominate in Europe - The Washington Post


----------



## Dot Com

could it be the high cost of logistics, cost of setting up terminals & costs of transport, or the dangers of exporting huge container ships filled w/ LNG?


----------



## usmcstinger

Fedex, UPS and Waste Management are using tucks powered by Natural Gas. Their goal is to have all their trucks powered by natural gas.

Many Electrical Producing Power Plants are fueled by Natural Gas and many more are in the process of doing so. Electrical Power Plants running on Coal can not meet EPA Emissions standards. Natural Gas does not have this problem.


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - North America's Manufacturing Renaissance

_Americas oil and natural gas boom has caused a rippling effect with all sectors experiencing a windfall. Energy-intensive manufacturing employment is set to increase by more than 1 percent in the United States through 2020, according to a report released by the U.S. Conference of Mayors. - 

More than 196,000 jobs in metro areas from 2010 to 2012 were added in energy-intensive manufacturing sectors. These sectors encompass steel, iron, fabricated metals and machinery, which all have benefited from the natural gas boom, the report added. Employment in these sectors increased by 9 or 10 percent, from 2010 to 2012, in all U.S. metropolitan areas. _

THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE, OBAMA!​


----------



## Mr. H.

Fracking spurs next industrial revolution

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-next-industrial-revolution-130850723.html


----------



## Mr. H.

How fracking helps America beat German industry

Special Report: How fracking helps America beat German industry

_It&#8217;s a different story across the Atlantic in the U.S. state of Louisiana. There, chemicals maker Huntsman Corp pays 22 percent less for its power than it did just seven years ago._


----------



## Darkwind

ABikerSailor said:


> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?


WE had flammable water prior to fracking.  Why do you think places like "burning springs" exist?

Natural gas leaks out into ground water..............wait for it..............naturally!

Fracking has not caused anything new and is a proven safe technology.


----------



## Mr. H.

API Says Fracking Saved Public Schools $1 Billion Last Year - Businessweek

_The report, (pdf) prepared by IHS, claims that local elementary and secondary schools saved more than $1.2 billion off their combined gas and electricity bills during the 2012-13 school year. Or, according to the report, enough money to hire 14,246 full-time teachers. State and local governments saved a total of $720 million due to cheaper gas and electricity, the report says, enough to hire an extra 11,000 workers. _


----------



## Mr. H.

U.S. Seen as Biggest Oil Producer After Overtaking Saudi Arabia - Businessweek


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> API Says Fracking Saved Public Schools $1 Billion Last Year - Businessweek
> 
> _The report, (pdf) prepared by IHS, claims that local elementary and secondary schools saved more than $1.2 billion off their combined gas and electricity bills during the 2012-13 school year. Or, according to the report, enough money to hire 14,246 full-time teachers. State and local governments saved a total of $720 million due to cheaper gas and electricity, the report says, enough to hire an extra 11,000 workers. _



Amazing. Good reference as well, IHS does some cool reports, but generally you've got to pay for them.


----------



## Mr. H.

RGR said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> API Says Fracking Saved Public Schools $1 Billion Last Year - Businessweek
> 
> _The report, (pdf) prepared by IHS, claims that local elementary and secondary schools saved more than $1.2 billion off their combined gas and electricity bills during the 2012-13 school year. Or, according to the report, enough money to hire 14,246 full-time teachers. State and local governments saved a total of $720 million due to cheaper gas and electricity, the report says, enough to hire an extra 11,000 workers. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing. Good reference as well, IHS does some cool reports, but generally you've got to pay for them.
Click to expand...


I realize IHS puts a lot of work into gathering production ino, but geez the fees they charge for data.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> I realize IHS puts a lot of work into gathering production ino, but geez the fees they charge for data.



I've got a $221k contract sitting on my desk awaiting signature for some of their info.


----------



## Mr. H.

RGR said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I realize IHS puts a lot of work into gathering production ino, but geez the fees they charge for data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've got a $221k contract sitting on my desk awaiting signature for some of their info.
Click to expand...


Well, I suppose it depends on what you do with it LOL. 

Hey- are you familiar with this? Check it out. It's freeeeeeeeeeee!

Illinois State Geological Survey Illinois Oil and Gas Resources (ILOIL) Interactive Map | ISGS


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Hey- are you familiar with this? Check it out. It's freeeeeeeeeeee!
> 
> Illinois State Geological Survey Illinois Oil and Gas Resources (ILOIL) Interactive Map | ISGS



I do data...a fair amount of it usually including some value added component from the likes of DI or IHS. Availability of GIS systems and the related information associated with those layers from many state agencies isn't suited for the kind of analysis I do. But let me have a complete download of the relational database tables that those GIS layers run from, and that is a start.


----------



## Mr. H.

OPEC's Clout Falls as US Increases Oil Supply - The Epoch Times

_Crude oil supply from hydraulic fracturing isn&#8217;t just a controversial topic for U.S. politicians and industry regulators; it&#8217;s also affecting the business of the world&#8217;s biggest oil cartel._

The U.S. should begin exporting crude and natural gas in earnest.


----------



## Mr. H.

Fuel Fix » Coming soon to a country near you: The US frac phenomenon

WASHINGTON &#8212; _The United States&#8217; monopoly on pulling oil and gas out of ultra-dense rock formations is ending, as companies aim to replicate the success in other countries, energy analysts said Tuesday.

For several years, the United States has been a laboratory for figuring out how to exploit unconventional tight oil resources on a large scale, but &#8220;this is not just a U.S. play,&#8221; said Jamie Webster, senior director of the IHS energy research group. By the end of the decade, 10 percent of the world&#8217;s tight oil production will come from outside North America, Webster predicted at an Energy Information Administration summit._

America... fuck yeah!


----------



## sameech

KissMy said:


> Obama will use the governments political arm called the EPA to stop us from Fracking.
> 
> EPA: Fracking may cause groundwater pollution



Well in my area, fracking would be a monumental mistake that would absolutely destroy the local economy--too much uranium could be released into the watershed.


----------



## RGR

sameech said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama will use the governments political arm called the EPA to stop us from Fracking.
> 
> EPA: Fracking may cause groundwater pollution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well in my area, fracking would be a monumental mistake that would absolutely destroy the local economy--too much uranium could be released into the watershed.
Click to expand...


Fracking doesn't release uranium into the watershed unless you have some real idiot oil and gas reg's, and then it isn't industries fault for following the regs, but the morons who don't know anything about oil and gas production who built the regs.

Of course, those are also the same people usually afraid of hydraulic fracturing because they really don't know what it is....but now we have the dilemma...the issue isn't originating from those who know what they are doing, oil and gas companies drilling, completing and producing wells, but the morons with zero experience in the field who pretend they do.


----------



## sameech

RGR said:


> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama will use the governments political arm called the EPA to stop us from Fracking.
> 
> EPA: Fracking may cause groundwater pollution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well in my area, fracking would be a monumental mistake that would absolutely destroy the local economy--too much uranium could be released into the watershed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fracking doesn't release uranium into the watershed unless you have some real idiot oil and gas reg's, and then it isn't industries fault for following the regs, but the morons who don't know anything about oil and gas production who built the regs.
> 
> Of course, those are also the same people usually afraid of hydraulic fracturing because they really don't know what it is....but now we have the dilemma...the issue isn't originating from those who know what they are doing, oil and gas companies drilling, completing and producing wells, but the morons with zero experience in the field who pretend they do.
Click to expand...


Fracking releases uranium.  Water will be contaminated with the residue.  Uranium mining was blocked in my area even though we are sitting on a massive amount of it.  It was done with political pressure by God-fearing conservatives, not lawsuits by granola-eating environmental whackos.


----------



## RGR

sameech said:


> Fracking releases uranium.  Water will be contaminated with the residue.  Uranium mining was blocked in my area even though we are sitting on a massive amount of it.  It was done with political pressure by God-fearing conservatives, not lawsuits by granola-eating environmental whackos.



Hydraulic fracturing doesn't "release" anything. Hydraulic fracturing is the point at which the hydraulic pressure created by the surface pumps and liquid loading on the formation exceeds the lithostatic pressure and the rock fractures, changing the volume of the system involved, at which point system pressure drops suddenly, and you throttle up on the pumps and you are off to the races. Sit in the frac van sometime, learn something.

That is hydraulic fracturing.

When the procedure is complete, you throttle back the pumps, the system goes back to static because you are no longer increasing the system volume through increasing frac lengths, and you close the frac valve.

You have just done a hydraulic fracture "event", if you were. The micro-seismic work can be processed, acoustic signatures end, and then all the usual cleanup work of a completion begins. Various configurations of flowback, letting the well soak (if you believe in that), if you are REAL lucky you can start flowing it straight to the production tanks.

The hydraulic fracturing does its job, and because it is complete with the closing of the frac valve, releases NOTHING.

See what I meant earlier, by people just not having a clue as to how these things work? 

Now, if you wish to discuss NORM, and are concerned about such things, or want to discuss how poor regulations allow NORM to enter human infrastructure, that is a different issue, and not what otherwise appears to be yet another oil-ignorant attempt to blame oil field completion techniques for everything under the sun.


----------



## sameech

RGR said:


> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking releases uranium.  Water will be contaminated with the residue.  Uranium mining was blocked in my area even though we are sitting on a massive amount of it.  It was done with political pressure by God-fearing conservatives, not lawsuits by granola-eating environmental whackos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydraulic fracturing doesn't "release" anything. Hydraulic fracturing is the point at which the hydraulic pressure created by the surface pumps and liquid loading on the formation exceeds the lithostatic pressure and the rock fractures, changing the volume of the system involved, at which point system pressure drops suddenly, and you throttle up on the pumps and you are off to the races. Sit in the frac van sometime, learn something.
> 
> That is hydraulic fracturing.
> 
> When the procedure is complete, you throttle back the pumps, the system goes back to static because you are no longer increasing the system volume through increasing frac lengths, and you close the frac valve.
> 
> You have just done a hydraulic fracture "event", if you were. The micro-seismic work can be processed, acoustic signatures end, and then all the usual cleanup work of a completion begins. Various configurations of flowback, letting the well soak (if you believe in that), if you are REAL lucky you can start flowing it straight to the production tanks.
> 
> The hydraulic fracturing does its job, and because it is complete with the closing of the frac valve, releases NOTHING.
> 
> See what I meant earlier, by people just not having a clue as to how these things work?
> 
> Now, if you wish to discuss NORM, and are concerned about such things, or want to discuss how poor regulations allow NORM to enter human infrastructure, that is a different issue, and not what otherwise appears to be yet another oil-ignorant attempt to blame oil field completion techniques for everything under the sun.
Click to expand...


yes, you clearly are spinning to avoid the TE part of TENORM by pretending the NORM happens independent of the process.  The process concentrates the naturally occurring radioactive material to the point that it is toxic waste even after 90% filtration and the crap gets dumped into surface water.  Pennsylvania streams are already getting hit with the crap.  By the time the biological magnification takes place and people see what these rackets are doing,  the companies will be long since "closed" to be replaced by a new company with the same owners behind them, dumping the cost onto the public in multiple ways.


----------



## RGR

sameech said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, if you wish to discuss NORM, and are concerned about such things, or want to discuss how poor regulations allow NORM to enter human infrastructure, that is a different issue, and not what otherwise appears to be yet another oil-ignorant attempt to blame oil field completion techniques for everything under the sun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, you clearly are spinning to avoid the TE part of TENORM by pretending the NORM happens independent of the process.
Click to expand...


Of course it happens independent of the process. The geologic processes that created the NORM did so long before you and I were born, and probably before mankind was even invented. If it didn't..it wouldn't be there to be called NORM.



			
				sameech said:
			
		

> The process concentrates the naturally occurring radioactive material to the point that it is toxic waste even after 90% filtration and the crap gets dumped into surface water.



Hydraulic stimulations themselves concentrate nothing. They split rock. And if idiot regulators allow radioactive material to be dumped into surface waters, I recommend you fire them all, prosecute them under applicable laws, and hire new folks with experience in the industry and brains.



			
				sameech said:
			
		

> Pennsylvania streams are already getting hit with the crap.



I recommend they change the laws to not allow such things to happen then, and arrest those who are breaking the law...assuming Pennsylvania has such laws. I recommend you put the blame where it belongs...idiots who allow such things to happen or folks breaking the law. It certainly isn't the NORMs fault.  



			
				sameech said:
			
		

> By the time the biological magnification takes place and people see what these rackets are doing,  the companies will be long since "closed" to be replaced by a new company with the same owners behind them, dumping the cost onto the public in multiple ways.



The companies that have been doing hydraulic stimulations are still here, Halliburton was doing acid completions in the 30's, and is still here after pioneering hydraulic stimulations in the 1940's.  States have orphan well programs for a reason, and it turns out that they aren't really all that busy most of the time...wells not being given up easily. If your beef is with incompetent regulators and those ignorant of the steps available, and utilized, within industry to handle problems far worse than NORM, I recommend you go learn from those who do, rather than NIMBYs who specialize in whining.


----------



## sameech

RGR said:


> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, if you wish to discuss NORM, and are concerned about such things, or want to discuss how poor regulations allow NORM to enter human infrastructure, that is a different issue, and not what otherwise appears to be yet another oil-ignorant attempt to blame oil field completion techniques for everything under the sun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, you clearly are spinning to avoid the TE part of TENORM by pretending the NORM happens independent of the process.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course it happens independent of the process. The geologic processes that created the NORM did so long before you and I were born, and probably before mankind was even invented. If it didn't..it wouldn't be there to be called NORM.
> 
> 
> 
> Hydraulic stimulations themselves concentrate nothing. They split rock. And if idiot regulators allow radioactive material to be dumped into surface waters, I recommend you fire them all, prosecute them under applicable laws, and hire new folks with experience in the industry and brains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pennsylvania streams are already getting hit with the crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I recommend they change the laws to not allow such things to happen then, and arrest those who are breaking the law...assuming Pennsylvania has such laws. I recommend you put the blame where it belongs...idiots who allow such things to happen or folks breaking the law. It certainly isn't the NORMs fault.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the time the biological magnification takes place and people see what these rackets are doing,  the companies will be long since "closed" to be replaced by a new company with the same owners behind them, dumping the cost onto the public in multiple ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The companies that have been doing hydraulic stimulations are still here, Halliburton was doing acid completions in the 30's, and is still here after pioneering hydraulic stimulations in the 1940's.  States have orphan well programs for a reason, and it turns out that they aren't really all that busy most of the time...wells not being given up easily. If your beef is with incompetent regulators and those ignorant of the steps available, and utilized, within industry to handle problems far worse than NORM, I recommend you go learn from those who do, rather than NIMBYs who specialize in whining.
Click to expand...


So your whole position is that it is the local government's fault for not regulating that which you deny is even a problem.  You must work for or have money invested in fracking.

In the meantime, if the problem did not exist, some states would not require sludge pools for the formation water extraction; there would not have been reports suggesting that it takes a year for the pressure to stabilize after the end of extracting, increasing the likelihood that formation water and groundwater used for drinking will come in direct contact; for reasons that should be obvious to everyone, oil and gas are exempted from federal regulation even if it is as radioactive as the water inside Three Mile Island's nuclear reactors; and by definition, once you start pressurizing and adding chemicals to NORM, it becomes TENORM which you also seem to want to deny happens.


----------



## RGR

sameech said:


> So your whole position is that it is the local government's fault for not regulating that which you deny is even a problem.  You must work for or have money invested in fracking.



No...my whole position is that most people don't know what hydraulic fracturing is, and those who pretend they do get it from HBO "documentaries" created by people who fit this category of knowledge themselves, and this category also includes regulators and citizens who aren't willing to pay for regulators who know what hydraulic fracturing is, or representatives who themselves understand, and then pass laws to properly regulate it.

And this leads to the oil-ignorant pretending that some 60+ year old oil field completion technique is itself some evil event, instead of discussing the real problem.

Such as local morons pretending that their waste water treatment plant handles NORM, when it doesn't, and not caring, and then they dump it into surface waters. That isn't frackings fault. It's ignorant people.


----------



## Mr. H.

Each year I moderate a conference consisting of, on average, 50 educators from around the state. These are grade school/middle school/high school teachers whose focus of instruction is science and math. They receive CPDU credits just for showing up. We have retained the services of a university PhD Geology professor so some of them can receive graduate credits. 

Over the 3-1/2 day conference these teachers spend 8 hours in a laboratory setting and 12 hours in a classroom setting, learning everything from A-Z about the oil and natural gas industries. In addition we take them on a 10 hour field trip visiting a refinery, a drilling rig, and a production/storage yard. 

We in this industry live, practice, and impart science and education. 

The kind of science and education in which Liberals DON'T believe.


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Over the 3-1/2 day conference these teachers spend 8 hours in a laboratory setting and 12 hours in a classroom setting, learning everything from A-Z about the oil and natural gas industries. In addition we take them on a 10 hour field trip visiting a refinery, a drilling rig, and a production/storage yard.
> 
> We in this industry live, practice, and impart science and education.



I was at the EIA conference in Washington last week, and had pre-arranged a meeting there with some reporters, with whom I spent more than 2 hours just trying to get across the concept of uncertainty in resource estimates. I consider myself lucky if, after such an intense one on one session, they get the use of the words "reserves" and "resources" correct. And I'm doing it again next week with folks from California interested in California shale development possibilities in light of recent changes in estimates for the Monterey resources. 

Industry certainly lives, practices and breathes these things, but DAMN some people are just thick. Or DON'T want to understand, it being so much easier to just make stuff up, find someone pretending to show how dangerous well water is when someone drilled a well the next county over...and it MUST be that thar frackin, gasland told me so!


----------



## Mr. H.

China Plans to Construct Huge Methanol Plant in Shale Gas-Rich Texas to Meet Rising Domestic Demand

_Chinese firms, Connell Group of China and Sino Life Insurance Co are looking to build a huge methanol production and deep-port export facility in the shale gas-rich US state of Texas._

Business is good.


----------



## MaryL

Injecting water / chemicals into the ground under high pressure for whatever reason has been proven to cause minor earthquakes and pollution of ground water...But, if that's ok. Slavery, strip mining and cutting down the rain forests  are good for the economy, too.


----------



## MaryL

I have been negatively effected by fraking, here in Colorado.  Near were I live, they recently converted an old grain elevator over into storage for sand used in the fracking process. This area is adjacent to business. That in itself has been a nightmare, the overflow of trucks, the blatant disregard for the residents or traffic law enforcement by the cops...because they don't want to be  seen as harassing local business. their concern is touching. But this pollution and abuse goes on morning,  noon and night, 24/7.  So what is GOOD for the economy, isn't what is GOOD...


----------



## JiggsCasey

MaryL said:


> I have been negatively effected by fraking, here in Colorado.  Near were I live, they recently converted an old grain elevator over into storage for sand used in the fracking process. This area is adjacent to business. That in itself has been a nightmare, the overflow of trucks, the blatant disregard for the residents or traffic law enforcement by the cops...because they don't want to be  seen as harassing local business. their concern is touching. But this pollution and abuse goes on morning,  noon and night, 24/7.  So what is GOOD for the economy, isn't what is GOOD...



countdown to industry troll RGR blaming residents near you for being too "stupid/should've known better/ride a bike" and county and state legislators for being too" lax/corrupt." ...   in 10, ... 9, .... 8, ....   

RGR's the kind of guy who winks at you while shaking your hand. Certainly if you come to one of his conventions and investor petrodollars are at stake.

meanwhile, tight oil and gas production benefits greatly from RW-flavored legislation that has greased the skids and blocked many layers of liability.  The kind of "externalities" that, if counted honestly against a company's margins, would likely make the economic price-per-barrel for this junk-grade form of hydro-carbons more like $100-150. Nevermind the industry has to keep running faster and faster every year just to stay in place, and first-year decline rates are cliff-like.

The unspoken platform of these petrofascists goes like this: _"Clean up? That's someone ELSE's problem; Don't eff with our profit margin.... Look, you drive your car to work, right? Hypocrite. ... Be grateful, and shutup." _

why concede the environmental costs of producing this inflationary form of junk energy when you can send an army of stock-owning zealots out on the blogosphere to pretend HBO-sponsored documentaries don't matter? These trolls cling to a missed number here or there among hundreds presented in the piece, and turn around and ignore the over-arching concern by way of dismissal. Deceit at it's most transparent. 

But, I'm sure to industry trolls like RGR, an arrest of Josh Fox at a public House Science committee hearing was entirely warranted and entirely Fox' fault. He probably laughed when he watched that part, like the douchebag technocratic sociopath he undoubtedly is. That's how bass-akwards these cultists of industry profit truly are in their bizzaro world of rationalization.

Still waiting for RGR to explain how the oil majors suddenly pulling back 10-33% in expenditures is somehow a "good" thing for near- to mid-term flow rates. You know, in a world utterly depending on growth, and growth utterly dependent on energy consumption.  

_"Nothing to see here. Keep giving us your fracking dollars, and agreeing not to let your constituents ever sue over our 'harmless' technology!!" * wink wink *_


----------



## percysunshine

Mr. H. said:


> Each year I moderate a conference consisting of, on average, 50 educators from around the state. These are grade school/middle school/high school teachers whose focus of instruction is science and math. They receive CPDU credits just for showing up. We have retained the services of a university PhD Geology professor so some of them can receive graduate credits.
> 
> Over the 3-1/2 day conference these teachers spend 8 hours in a laboratory setting and 12 hours in a classroom setting, learning everything from A-Z about the oil and natural gas industries. In addition we take them on a 10 hour field trip visiting a refinery, a drilling rig, and a production/storage yard.
> 
> We in this industry live, practice, and impart science and education.
> 
> The kind of science and education in which Liberals DON'T believe.




"You didn't build that" is about the stupidest quote any US president has ever made.

(disclaimer: Joe Biden could have topped that)

.


----------



## chikenwing

sameech said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking releases uranium.  Water will be contaminated with the residue.  Uranium mining was blocked in my area even though we are sitting on a massive amount of it.  It was done with political pressure by God-fearing conservatives, not lawsuits by granola-eating environmental whackos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydraulic fracturing doesn't "release" anything. Hydraulic fracturing is the point at which the hydraulic pressure created by the surface pumps and liquid loading on the formation exceeds the lithostatic pressure and the rock fractures, changing the volume of the system involved, at which point system pressure drops suddenly, and you throttle up on the pumps and you are off to the races. Sit in the frac van sometime, learn something.
> 
> That is hydraulic fracturing.
> 
> When the procedure is complete, you throttle back the pumps, the system goes back to static because you are no longer increasing the system volume through increasing frac lengths, and you close the frac valve.
> 
> You have just done a hydraulic fracture "event", if you were. The micro-seismic work can be processed, acoustic signatures end, and then all the usual cleanup work of a completion begins. Various configurations of flowback, letting the well soak (if you believe in that), if you are REAL lucky you can start flowing it straight to the production tanks.
> 
> The hydraulic fracturing does its job, and because it is complete with the closing of the frac valve, releases NOTHING.
> 
> See what I meant earlier, by people just not having a clue as to how these things work?
> 
> Now, if you wish to discuss NORM, and are concerned about such things, or want to discuss how poor regulations allow NORM to enter human infrastructure, that is a different issue, and not what otherwise appears to be yet another oil-ignorant attempt to blame oil field completion techniques for everything under the sun.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes, you clearly are spinning to avoid the TE part of TENORM by pretending the NORM happens independent of the process.  The process concentrates the naturally occurring radioactive material to the point that it is toxic waste even after 90% filtration and the crap gets dumped into surface water.  Pennsylvania streams are already getting hit with the crap.  By the time the biological magnification takes place and people see what these rackets are doing,  the companies will be long since "closed" to be replaced by a new company with the same owners behind them, dumping the cost onto the public in multiple ways.
Click to expand...


So you don't live where they are drilling do you?

Pa streams are just fine so is the ground water,they do not dump waste water on surface water,its all contained and no dumping.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Is it just me or does anyone else think that rather than exporting a limited energy resource we have in abundance we should be saving it for ourselves instead?


----------



## Mr. H.

Skull Pilot said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else think that rather than exporting a limited energy resource we have in abundance we should be saving it for ourselves instead?



Why are we exporting food while paying record prices for groceries?


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> Why are we exporting food while paying record prices for groceries?



Food is as much a fungible commodity as oil. So the price for food isn't set locally, but internationally nowadays.


----------



## RGR

MaryL said:


> Injecting water / chemicals into the ground under high pressure for whatever reason has been proven to cause minor earthquakes and pollution of ground water



Each hydraulic fracturing event can cause hundreds if not THOUSANDS of micro-seismic events. The key being MICRO seismic events.

Having the experience of standing there while I did this, I can assure you that I felt none of these events. You want to call that an earthquake? Fine. But those of us who do these things get to laugh at you for it.

As far as pollution of ground water, it is certainly a possibility, with the failure of well bore integrity. Of course, the failure of well bore integrity is immediately noticed in the frack van, and the procedure halted on the spot. 



			
				MaryL said:
			
		

> But, if that's ok. Slavery, strip mining and cutting down the rain forests  are good for the economy, too.



All sorts of things are good for the economy. Some are legal, some are not. The ones you refer to in terms of hydraulic fracturing are primarily delusional.


----------



## RGR

MaryL said:


> I have been negatively effected by fraking, here in Colorado.  Near were I live, they recently converted an old grain elevator over into storage for sand used in the fracking process. This area is adjacent to business. That in itself has been a nightmare, the overflow of trucks, the blatant disregard for the residents or traffic law enforcement by the cops...because they don't want to be  seen as harassing local business. their concern is touching. But this pollution and abuse goes on morning,  noon and night, 24/7.  So what is GOOD for the economy, isn't what is GOOD...



So because a once quiet area is now..not so quiet.you think this is hydraulic fracturings fault? Versus the property owners fault, because they are breaking local zoning laws, allowing commercial operations so close to your place? You are complaining about commercial development, not tracking. And if its legal commercial activity then..you are just complaining about activity. 

And the CDL requirements for drivers of trucks for the likes of Halliburton and other companies doing completions are pretty stiff, so you don't get to pretend they are disobeying traffic laws when doing it can cost them their jobs. And certainly this has nothing to do with pollutionit has to do with you living close to land either zoned commercial, or not restricted in zoning to only the kind of activity YOU prefer. Like maybe bird watching. Certainly those property owners get to use their property the way they wish, just as you can. This is Colorado, go grow some weed, smoke it, and be happy.


----------



## natstew

ABikerSailor said:


> Fracking also brings small earthquakes and flammable water.
> 
> Still think it's a good idea?



This has already been debunked.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been negatively effected by fraking, here in Colorado.  Near were I live, they recently converted an old grain elevator over into storage for sand used in the fracking process. This area is adjacent to business. That in itself has been a nightmare, the overflow of trucks, the blatant disregard for the residents or traffic law enforcement by the cops...because they don't want to be  seen as harassing local business. their concern is touching. But this pollution and abuse goes on morning,  noon and night, 24/7.  So what is GOOD for the economy, isn't what is GOOD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> countdown to industry troll RGR blaming residents near you for being too "stupid/should've known better/ride a bike" and county and state legislators for being too" lax/corrupt." ...   in 10, ... 9, .... 8, ....
Click to expand...


I haven't been in industry for decades now Jiggsy, you would know this if you could read. Now I explain industry procedures to empty headed morons.otherwise known as those much more highly educated than you.



			
				Jiggs Casey said:
			
		

> Nevermind the industry has to keep running faster and faster every year just to stay in place, and first-year decline rates are cliff-like.



Do tell Jiggsy! Do you know the quantitative difference between "cliff like" and "non-cliff like", or are you just parroting someone else? Again?



			
				Jiggs Casey said:
			
		

> Still waiting for RGR to explain how the oil majors suddenly pulling back 10-33% in expenditures is somehow a "good" thing for near- to mid-term flow rates.



Why would I need to explain any of that? Decreased production without corresponding demand destruction leads to higher prices, and higher prices are good for industry folks. Unfortunate that this hasn't included me in this century, but no matter how many times I mention this to a parrotwellthere is no requirement for a parrot to LEARN anything. Ever.

Let us know the parameters of the hyperbolic, harmonic or exponential equation you used to quantify that "cliff life" thingwe're all dying to calculate the difference for ourselves, and I'm sure someone with a brain at your church of malthusians has provided you this information, that you not look so ignorant when claiming it in public.


----------



## RGR

Skull Pilot said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else think that rather than exporting a limited energy resource we have in abundance we should be saving it for ourselves instead?



Well, we could change from a more free market economy to a more state run one, but Americans don't tend to like the idea of becoming socialist or communist or whatever it might take to stop and heavily restrict that free market.


----------



## Mr. H.

MaryL said:


> I have been negatively effected by fraking, here in Colorado.  Near were I live, they recently converted an old grain elevator over into storage for sand used in the fracking process. This area is adjacent to business. That in itself has been a nightmare, the overflow of trucks, the blatant disregard for the residents or traffic law enforcement by the cops...because they don't want to be  seen as harassing local business. their concern is touching. But this pollution and abuse goes on morning,  noon and night, 24/7.  So what is GOOD for the economy, isn't what is GOOD...



I've not heard of any sand elevator explosions, have you? 

Grain elevators, however...



Grain Elevator Explosion Chart


----------



## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been negatively effected by fraking, here in Colorado.  Near were I live, they recently converted an old grain elevator over into storage for sand used in the fracking process. This area is adjacent to business. That in itself has been a nightmare, the overflow of trucks, the blatant disregard for the residents or traffic law enforcement by the cops...because they don't want to be  seen as harassing local business. their concern is touching. But this pollution and abuse goes on morning,  noon and night, 24/7.  So what is GOOD for the economy, isn't what is GOOD...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So because a once quiet area is now..not so quiet.you think this is hydraulic fracturings fault? Versus the property owners fault, because they are breaking local zoning laws, allowing commercial operations so close to your place? You are complaining about commercial development, not tracking. And if its legal commercial activity then..you are just complaining about activity.
> 
> And the CDL requirements for drivers of trucks for the likes of Halliburton and other companies doing completions are pretty stiff, so you don't get to pretend they are disobeying traffic laws when doing it can cost them their jobs. And certainly this has nothing to do with pollutionit has to do with you living close to land either zoned commercial, or not restricted in zoning to only the kind of activity YOU prefer. Like maybe bird watching. Certainly those property owners get to use their property the way they wish, just as you can. This is Colorado, go grow some weed, smoke it, and be happy.
Click to expand...


LOL!!! So, essentially: "Let them eat Cake!" 

As predicted, a compassion-free post that blames the victim (and local government) for the horrors his favorite unsustainable industry absolutely perpetrates on rural America. It's what a sociopath does.

What a dick. 

Dude, seriously, you desperately need a straight overhand right to the face. It's clear you're basically a horrible, horrible person on most every level.


----------



## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> Well, we could change from a more free market economy to a more state run one, but Americans don't tend to like the idea of becoming socialist.



LOL... STFU

Young People More Likely To Favor Socialism Than Capitalism: Pew


Poll: Many Americans prefer socialism over capitalism






Not that your dumbass response had anything to do with his question. But your wrongness screams for accountability, so there it is.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> Dude, seriously, you desperately need a straight overhand right to the face. It's clear you're basically a horrible, horrible person on most every level.



Always a possibility. But one thing I am certainly NOT...and that is a parrot.


----------



## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> JiggsCasey said:
> 
> 
> 
> countdown to industry troll RGR blaming residents near you for being too "stupid/should've known better/ride a bike" and county and state legislators for being too" lax/corrupt." ...   in 10, ... 9, .... 8, ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't been in industry for decades now Jiggsy, you would know this if you could read. Now I explain industry procedures to empty headed morons&#8230;.otherwise known as those much more highly educated than you.
Click to expand...


Semantics much, troll? Cut the crap. Your bread is buttered via the industry. So whether it's stock options, lecture circuit, or just giving reacharounds to the bigwigs at conferences, your agenda is painting a warm picture for an industry that's ruining the biosphere and desperate for investment.

However you get paid (poorly spent as it is), it most certainly ISN'T for your grasp of how triple-digit oil prices affect the global economy, nor your honesty regarding flow rate growth.

It is notable how much you omitted from my post, most especially the 96% write-down of Monterrey reserves. Just when does the fraud end with your industry? 



RGR said:


> Jiggs Casey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nevermind the industry has to keep running faster and faster every year just to stay in place, and first-year decline rates are cliff-like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do tell Jiggsy! Do you know the quantitative difference between "cliff like" and "non-cliff like", or are you just parroting someone else? Again?
Click to expand...


Yeah, we've been over this, and you punted. Like you always do when you have nothing of substance to convey, you shifted to talk of my alleged religious zealotry without  actually countering the data. :yawn: ...   Something like 66% decline for the first year, alone? Yeah, that's pretty horribad ... and certainly unsustainable. 

U.S. Shale-Oil Boom May Not Last as Fracking Wells Lack Staying Power

_Production from wells bored into these formations declines by 60 percent to 70 percent in the first year alone, says Allen Gilmer, chairman and chief executive officer of Drillinginfo, which tracks the performance of U.S. wells. _​
Yeah, for your industry? I'd say that's fairly "cliff-like." But you're the semantics champion. Tell us all how it's not. Compared to...   anything. Tell us what words mean, lecturer. LOL...  






Ah well. Our $5-10M wells are useless within 2-3 years? No problem, right? In order to maintain promised production growth, we'll just easily expand 10,000 short-life wells to 100,000!!! No wait, 1,000,000!!! ... There's no logistical limit in sight!! Afterall, this is a growth industry, and the engineers are streaming out of U.S. colleges just begging to man the rigs!!! ... Oh, and there's plenty of water for that degree of expansion .

Sad little snake oil salesman. You truly are why this cartoon was drawn:








RGR said:


> Jiggs Casey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for RGR to explain how the oil majors suddenly pulling back 10-33% in expenditures is somehow a "good" thing for near- to mid-term flow rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would I need to explain any of that?
Click to expand...


Ummmm, because it pukes in the face of your entire baseless "no problem" narrative? Leave it there, I don't care. I already KNOW you're a fraud. It's the impressionable onlookers who'd love to hear you try and flesh that one out.



RGR said:


> Decreased production without corresponding demand destruction leads to higher prices, and higher prices are good for industry folks.



LOL...  Short term, maybe. If they can pump and dump and get out of the game before inevitable demand destruction takes place, sure. Otherwise, oops. Nope... Big killer of free cash flow, that stubborn $100/bl price, and not conducive to production growth. _"We need it $150/bl !!!! Surely the world can afford it!!!!"_



RGR said:


> Unfortunate that this hasn't included me in this century, but no matter how many times I mention this to a parrot&#8230;well&#8230;there is no requirement for a parrot to LEARN anything. Ever.



Blah blah, whatever liar. .... You're still not answering my fundamental question, dipshit. If they're scaling back on spending for exploration and drilling and dumping assets left and right, how does that paint a picture of an industry that's growing? Oops, it doesn't. 

The sad truth is, even the most optimistic expansion of tight oil production by smaller companies will never come close to atoning for the majors' decline. For Russia's decline. For Mexico's decline. And on and on and on. You know it as well as I know it. I'm the only one honest about it. 

For you trolls, what only matters is how much of a buck you all can hoodwink investors for before the great reboot. 

Your career is based on fraud, RGR. Destructive fraud that is contributing to the RW's perpetual ecocide. You know it deep inside. Awwww.

Sorry. No church here. Devout aethist, in fact. You, on the other hand, show ALL the telltale signs of a wild-eyed religious zealot. The irony is delicious.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't been in industry for decades now Jiggsy, you would know this if you could read. Now I explain industry procedures to empty headed morons.otherwise known as those much more highly educated than you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semantics much, troll? Cut the crap. Your bread is buttered via the industry.
Click to expand...


No it isn't. Not a lunch. Not a laser pointer gift, memory stick, or hamburger. I've told you before, and you just don't listen. To be a credible scientist, you can't have any funding tied to sources that might be suspect. To be a credible analyst, the same rule applies.

Upon investigation, when I am asked the question, "Have you now, or ever, been given gifts or favors or anything from company XXXX or organiation YYY"...there can only be one acceptable answer. "Never". I can give that answer. It is necessary for the job actually, because at the end of the day an objective, and knowledgeable, arbiter is required. 



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> So whether it's stock options, lecture circuit, or just giving reacharounds to the bigwigs at conferences, your agenda is painting a warm picture for an industry that's ruining the biosphere and desperate for investment.



There is no agenda. I do not accept travel funds, lecture fee's, or gifts. Of any size. I have never been paid for a presentation at a domestic or international conference. I have never been paid for peer reviewed science. I am prohibited from owning stocks and bonds related to mining and extraction industries. It is my job to explain, without passion or prejudice, the interaction of geology and engineering/technology to economists. Or explain economics to geologists and engineers. Or geology to engineers. Or engineering to geologists. Or all three to lawyers and judges.

The reason why I know more about peak oil than you do is because peak oil religious beliefs fall within the scope of what I must explain to others. 

So understanding is required. Not being a parrot for people and organizations who can't say what I said above. Just ask Heinberg what his honorarium fee is sometime Jiggsy...I dare you.



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> It is notable how much you omitted from my post, most especially the 96% write-down of Monterrey reserves. Just when does the fraud end with your industry?



The writedown to which you refer wasn't done by industry. You halfwit. And the writedown wasn't of reserves. You retard. Jesus you can't even write two sentences without letting the world see it, can you?



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> Ah well. Our $5-10M wells are useless within 2-3 years? No problem, right?



Do you understand the difference between flush, and base production? Because really, if your church hasn't given you the briefing points on this topic, you won't even know what answer to parrot should I poses a question to determine the quality of those briefing points.



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> You're still not answering my fundamental question, dipshit. If they're scaling back on spending for exploration and drilling and dumping assets left and right, how does that paint a picture of an industry that's growing? Oops, it doesn't.



I never said they were. At this point, you are just battling strawmen of your own making. Amusing to watch, but hardly educational.



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> Sorry. No church here. Devout aethist, in fact. You, on the other hand, show ALL the telltale signs of a wild-eyed religious zealot. The irony is delicious.



Of course you have a church Jiggsy. And they have a parrot. It was pegged long ago by John Denver..probably before you converted from whatever other Malthusian group you originated from.

Peak Oil Debunked: 32. IS PEAK OIL DOOM A RELIGION?


----------



## Mr. H.

U.S. Trade Deficit Narrows as Dependence on Foreign Oil Shrinks

_The most significant change we see is the decrease in foreign imported goods, which reflected the lowest petroleum trade deficit since 2009. *This in part is due to a decreased dependence on foreign oil as a result of increased domestic production.* _

Keep up  the good work, America.


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Marcellus Production Exceeds 15 Bcf/d, to Keep Growing


----------



## Mr. H.

U.S. Economy Has Gotten Lift By Going Deep To Retrieve Natural Gas - Forbes

Without fracking, this economy would truly be in the shitter...


----------



## Mr. H.

Energy investment boom drives economic recovery TheHill

_A new Progressive Policy Institute (PPI) report highlights an underappreciated fact about energy companies—they are huge investors in the U.S. economy. In fact, along with telecoms and Internet-based businesses, they are leading our economic recovery._


----------



## Mr. H.

America s Oil Trade Deficit Shrinks To Its Lowest Level In 10 Years - Yahoo Finance

Far.
Fucking.
Out.


----------



## bripat9643

Mr. H. said:


> America s Oil Trade Deficit Shrinks To Its Lowest Level In 10 Years - Yahoo Finance
> 
> Far.
> Fucking.
> Out.



Fracking is the main reason the economy is showing any signs of life at all.  Obama and his minions are doing everything they can to kill it, but Obama never fails to take credit for the economic benefits.


----------



## Mr. H.

bripat9643 said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> America s Oil Trade Deficit Shrinks To Its Lowest Level In 10 Years - Yahoo Finance
> 
> Far.
> Fucking.
> Out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking is the main reason the economy is showing any signs of life at all.  Obama and his minions are doing everything they can to kill it, but Obama never fails to take credit for the economic benefits.
Click to expand...

This graph isn't above scrutiny, but on the surface it does illustrate just who is responsible for any life signs that our economy is showing today...


----------



## sameech

bripat9643 said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> America s Oil Trade Deficit Shrinks To Its Lowest Level In 10 Years - Yahoo Finance
> 
> Far.
> Fucking.
> Out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking is the main reason the economy is showing any signs of life at all.  Obama and his minions are doing everything they can to kill it, but Obama never fails to take credit for the economic benefits.
Click to expand...


In part, that is correct.  It isn't the main driver of the economic recovery, but it certainly accounts for a measurable chunk of it.  It is really technology--fracking being one of those technologies.  Businesses have worked on cutting costs by deploying new technology to streamline their operations.  Unfortunately, they have not done much as investing in the sorts of projects that create new revenue like has been seen in prior recessions.  Not sure why so many Wall Street boards are afraid to try something new unless it has a measurable savings to offset the measurable costs.


----------



## Mr. H.

sameech said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> America s Oil Trade Deficit Shrinks To Its Lowest Level In 10 Years - Yahoo Finance
> 
> Far.
> Fucking.
> Out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fracking is the main reason the economy is showing any signs of life at all.  Obama and his minions are doing everything they can to kill it, but Obama never fails to take credit for the economic benefits.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In part, that is correct.  It isn't the main driver of the economic recovery, but it certainly accounts for a measurable chunk of it.  It is really technology--fracking being one of those technologies.  Businesses have worked on cutting costs by deploying new technology to streamline their operations.  Unfortunately, they have not done much as investing in the sorts of projects that create new revenue like has been seen in prior recessions.  Not sure why so many Wall Street boards are afraid to try something new unless it has a measurable savings to offset the measurable costs.
Click to expand...

Uh, these companies do re-invest. In more drilling creating more primary, secondary, and ancillary jobs. Infrastructure, transportation, storage, refining, marketing...


----------



## JiggsCasey

Mr. H. said:


> U.S. Economy Has Gotten Lift By Going Deep To Retrieve Natural Gas - Forbes
> 
> Without fracking, this economy would truly be in the shitter...



Newsflash: It already is ...  and no amount of ponzi-scheme investment fairy-tale fooling investors into this net loser changes that.  The reality is that fracking is an enormous bubble set to bust within 3-5 years that will make the dot.com bubble and real estate bubbles look like child's play.


----------



## Mr. H.

JiggsCasey said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Economy Has Gotten Lift By Going Deep To Retrieve Natural Gas - Forbes
> 
> Without fracking, this economy would truly be in the shitter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newsflash: It already is ...  and no amount of ponzi-scheme investment fairy-tale fooling investors into this net loser changes that.  The reality is that fracking is an enormous bubble set to bust within 3-5 years that will make the dot.com bubble and real estate bubbles look like child's play.
Click to expand...

Go play with your wingy.


----------



## JiggsCasey

Mr. H. said:


> Go play with your wingy.



LOL... please keep your investment money right where it is... 

and do be present when the bubble bursts.  Don't slink away.  There'll be a few questions.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Economy Has Gotten Lift By Going Deep To Retrieve Natural Gas - Forbes
> 
> Without fracking, this economy would truly be in the shitter...
> 
> 
> 
> The reality is that fracking is an enormous bubble set to bust within 3-5 years that will make the dot.com bubble and real estate bubbles look like child's play.
Click to expand...


Says the parrot who thought world oil had started declining years ago….because they don't know how to read oil production charts.

May I recommend reattending elementary school to learn the difference between lines with a slope of <0 and those with a slope >0? Or at least go ask for your money back, having missed the class in "up" versus "down"?


----------



## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> Says the parrot who thought world oil had started declining years ago….because they don't know how to read oil production charts.



Says the used car salesman who champions the art of changing the definition of crude over time and pretends unsustainable U.S. oil/gas production from fracking can continue exponentially.

Oh, and minus enormously expensive U.S. shale (a ponzi scheme) production? Global production hasn't budged, dip****.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Says the parrot who thought world oil had started declining years ago….because they don't know how to read oil production charts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the used car salesman who champions the art of changing the definition of crude over time and pretends unsustainable U.S. oil/gas production from fracking can continue exponentially.
Click to expand...


A) You don't know what sustainable, or unsustainable, even are. In general, or how it pertains to oil and gas development.
B) I've had 3 careers now, none of them were used car salesman.
C) The day your church admits it really screwed the pooch, because it doesn't understand basic resource economics issues, is the day any parrot of theirs might be worth giving the time of day.

So when does the US have its NEXT peak oil Jiggsy? The EIA says soon, and they, unlike you, are pretty detailed in their well leel analysis of areas and production rates. Has your church published any dogma on how to handle questions related to the US growing oil production faster than at any time in its history?


----------



## EconChick

Without fracking, this economy would truly be down the toilet...


----------



## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> [A) You don't know what sustainable, or unsustainable, even are.



lol... no, that would be you... clearly.

I notice you don't dare dispute that world production - minus U.S. junk - is flat some 9 years running. Good choice.

In any event, that unpleasant fact is a real problem for you scheisters to spin. You'd better hope you can expand fracking production volume and infrastructure 10-fold just to maintain stasis. Too bad we all know the world doesn't have near that many geological engineers that would be required, let alone the fresh water volume.

Awww... logistics. Still kicking you liars right in the ass.



RGR said:


> B) I've had 3 careers now, none of them were used car salesman.



it was a metaphor, short bus rider ... your level of nuance is almost as lacking as your understanding of how (still quite) high oil price devastates the global economy.



RGR said:


> C) The day your church admits it really screwed the pooch, because it doesn't understand basic resource economics issues, is the day any parrot of theirs might be worth giving the time of day.



and yet you attempt to do exactly that every time I visit and crush your "no problem" thesis... usually within 12 hours, no less, considering you live here and have zero life of your own. Loser.

Keep grasping at baseless internet soul readings...   It only makes you look more exasperated. Awwww...



RGR said:


> So when does the US have its NEXT peak oil Jiggsy? The EIA says soon, and they, unlike you, are pretty detailed in their well leel analysis of areas and production rates.



Still just 1970-71, by all data available. Your heroes still have a ways to go, don't they? Hopefully they can get past that mark for posterity - if nothing else - before the bubble quickly bursts and it nosedives again. Only this time, Saudi and friends won't be able to come to the rescue. Quite a race against time, trying to beat that old peak before guaranteed systemic collapse of your pet industry. Should be very close!



RGR said:


> Has your church published any dogma on how to handle questions related to the US growing oil production faster than at any time in its history?



LOL... like I predicted... All you're left with is witless soul reading....  "church, parrot, dogma, words, something something... religion, parrot, words, words... "

I ring the bell, and you come running. Tool.

"Growing fast," ...  due to unsustainable cash injections and baseless hype from disingenuous frauds like you. It's a ponzi scheme, and you know it, snake oil salesman.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice you don't dare dispute that world production - minus U.S. junk - is flat some 9 years running. Good choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance on what global crude oil production is doing is duly noted. When you parrot, try and at least parrot RELEVANT information. Still going up...as compared to your religion's claim of peak...like in 1989!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JiggsCasey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> B) I've had 3 careers now, none of them were used car salesman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it was a metaphor, short bus rider ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Haven't ridden a bus in forever either. I do on occasion use the DC Metro. And you using metaphors to hide your ignorance every time you crawl out from under your rock.."oh I didn't mean that peak oil meant a peak oil..I meant it would keep going up for awhile and then...maybe...it would peak...maybe..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JiggsCasey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when does the US have its NEXT peak oil Jiggsy? The EIA says soon, and they, unlike you, are pretty detailed in their well leel analysis of areas and production rates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Still just 1970-71, by all data available.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Starting to feel a little heat on that one are you? Yep...the day that the US peak goes down as just another bad prediction, I mean, what will your religion do then? Begin pimping MULTIPLE peaks and trying to rearrange the mathematics of bell shaped curves to be all...non-bell shaped?
> 
> Jiggsy want a cracker?
Click to expand...


----------



## Mr. H.

RIGZONE - Eagle Ford Activity Generates over 25B in Economic Output in South Tx.

Economic output.


----------

