# leaders: born, or made?



## shart_attack (May 4, 2014)

Are the greatest leaders born, i.e. entitled via aristocracy or plutocracy, or are they made great via the nicks, pings and bruises on their bodies and the dirt under their fingernails acquired from the charismatic camaraderie and quantification of hard work?

Me, I tend to think that the best leaders are made, not born.

But because some of the most well-known leaders in world history (Alexander the Great, King Solomon and Winston Churchill, for example) were both born into wealth or the statesmanship of surname _and_ molded from the clay of their hard work&#8212;and the gut-wrenching emotional and spiritual mountains and valleys that accompanied that work&#8212;I'm not sure one can definitively state that they are _only_ made.

It's been a while since I was in a philosophy class, so I'm hoping that some fellow USMBers will put a good spin on the question and thereby give me a helping hand with this.


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## Slag (May 4, 2014)

Leaders, great leaders exhibit qualities that need to be nurtured and honed. It is not just one act that separate leaders from followers it is a pattern of behavior that separates leaders and those who are lead.  While you mention famous people I am also thinking of  not so famous leaders that I am aware of  and there are those qualities. I do not think birth is a great factor except in possibly giving exposure to a population.


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## Shaitra (May 4, 2014)

I think it is a combination of born with it and made by the circumstances of your life.  Someone who is really shy is going to have a tougher time being a leader than someone who is more outgoing.  But if that shy person goes into the military, chances are they will have more leadership qualities when they get out than when they went in.


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## Book of Jeremiah (May 4, 2014)

It is divine providence in my opinion.  King David was born to rule.  So was King Josiah.   Patton was playing stategies of warfare at the age of 5 according to his mother.  A brilliant strategist - interested in battle plans from early on, he was born for it.. it was his destiny to become Gen. Patton... you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.. it simply does not work that way... the great ones such as Churchill always stand out in history..  Mozart was born to lead the world in music, was he made?  No..   Leaders are born.  Finding them these days is the difficult part.


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## editec (May 4, 2014)

Both.

This version of the _nature V nurture_ debate is pointless.


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## Asclepias (May 4, 2014)

Probably a little of both but I lean heavily toward made only. No real way to prove it though.


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## shart_attack (May 4, 2014)

Shaitra said:


> I think it is a combination of born with it and made by the circumstances of your life. Someone who is really shy is going to have a tougher time being a leader than someone who is more outgoing. But if that shy person goes into the military, chances are they will have more leadership qualities when they get out than when they went in.



That is probably true. It makes sense to me that a more introverted, shy person by definition alone cannot be a great leader, because great leaders tend to have a sort of cult-of-personality-esque charisma, of charm about them.

But while military experience is a definite plus, I am not certain it is a must  even for an extrovert.

Right off the top of my head, I can think of a few leaders who never had military experience, yet could command and woo a crowd with a sort of fire-and-brimstone-eschatological-preacher's fervor.

Thanks for your post. It made me think, which is exactly what I set out to do when I penned this thread.


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## shart_attack (May 4, 2014)

Jeremiah said:


> It is divine providence in my opinion. King David was born to rule. So was King Josiah. Patton was playing stategies of warfare at the age of 5 according to his mother. A brilliant strategist - interested in battle plans from early on, he was born for it.. it was his destiny to become Gen. Patton... you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.. it simply does not work that way... the great ones such as Churchill always stand out in history..  Mozart was born to lead the world in music, was he made? No..



Could Mozart have ever led the world in music if he had not had parents who challenged him at a young age to play an instrument?

I don't think one can definitively say leaders are _only_ born: I think it's a combination of being born _and_ made.



			
				Jeremiah said:
			
		

> Leaders are born. Finding them these days is the difficult part.



The fact that we can't always find them is probably George W. Bush's fault.


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## shart_attack (May 4, 2014)

editec said:


> Both.
> 
> This version of the _nature V nurture_ debate is pointless.



So why are you even posting here then, Copernicus?

_Duh_.

Great leaders also tend to give constructive input  not merely caustic hackery.


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## Goddess_Ashtara (May 4, 2014)

Leaders are not made or born.  Leaders choose to be leaders.


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## rightwinger (May 4, 2014)

Born

You see young children who are natural leaders? You also see kid who can never lead


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## BlackSand (May 4, 2014)

Leaders are made.

Some people may be easier to be molded into a leader through opportunities of birth ... But that doesn't mean every rich baby is a good leader.
Some people have the talents a leader should possess ... But really suck at executing the duties in a proficient manner.
Some people do have traits that accent their leadership abilities ... And that can be inherited or environmental.

Still ... A leader has to develop their own abilities and style to meet the desires of those they would like to lead.

.


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## shart_attack (May 4, 2014)

Goddess_Ashtara said:


> Leaders are not made or born. Leaders choose to be leaders.



Give an example, please.


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## Asclepias (May 4, 2014)

Goddess_Ashtara said:


> Leaders are not made or born.  Leaders choose to be leaders.



Some are forced to be leaders due to circumstance. History is full of reluctant leaders.


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## Slag (May 5, 2014)

The word leader is a simple application of an idea to  varied situations. As a society we need leadership but depending on the situation that leadership can take on many forms. Sometimes it is an elder who is looked upon to be a leader and their experience and wisdom is sought  to decide a course of action or establish a system of rules. In other situations a leader can be different people in the same social group depending on the activity. In a street gang the toughest or most skilled fighter may qualify as the leaser. The answer  to this seemingly simple question cannot be given in general terms.


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## gipper (May 5, 2014)

The better question is...do we need leaders and what is the history of leaders?

IMO we do not need leaders.  They are mostly corrupt liars who work tirelessly to enrich and empower themselves, while causing the deaths of millions.


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## Darkwind (May 5, 2014)

gipper said:


> The better question is...do we need leaders and what is the history of leaders?
> 
> IMO we do not need leaders.  They are mostly corrupt liars who work tirelessly to enrich and empower themselves, while causing the deaths of millions.


You are entitled to that view, but it would be wrong.


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## Darkwind (May 5, 2014)

shart_attack said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> > It is divine providence in my opinion. King David was born to rule. So was King Josiah. Patton was playing stategies of warfare at the age of 5 according to his mother. A brilliant strategist - interested in battle plans from early on, he was born for it.. it was his destiny to become Gen. Patton... you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.. it simply does not work that way... the great ones such as Churchill always stand out in history..  Mozart was born to lead the world in music, was he made? No..
> ...


I think they are made only.  Each of us start as a blank slate and our environment during formative years sets the foundation of who and what we'll be.  

OF course, you have to exclude those with genetic deficiencies that inhibit normal development.  In all honesty, this is a very complex question.  There have also been numerous studies and books written on it.


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## Asclepias (May 5, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> shart_attack said:
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> > Jeremiah said:
> ...



Everything would lead me to believe leaders are made but you cannot rule out genetic physical factors such as being able to see better or hear better.  Being able to observe body language and identify feelings in the tone of voice is a component of leadership in one on one situations.


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## srlip (May 7, 2014)

we haven't HAD any since Ike, so I can't really blame younger folks for not knowing what one is.


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## gipper (May 8, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> gipper said:
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> 
> > The better question is...do we need leaders and what is the history of leaders?
> ...




Could you please explain WHY my opinion is wrong?


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## Asclepias (May 8, 2014)

Without leaders everything would be a cluster f..k.  No one would take responsibility for anything.


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## gipper (May 8, 2014)

Asclepias said:


> Without leaders everything would be a cluster f..k.  No one would take responsibility for anything.



Maybe so, but what we have now WITH leaders, IS a cluster f**k.

No?


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## Asclepias (May 8, 2014)

gipper said:


> Asclepias said:
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> 
> > Without leaders everything would be a cluster f..k.  No one would take responsibility for anything.
> ...



Not as much of a cluster f..k as we would have with no leaders.  There are leaders all around you if you are not one yourself.


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## gipper (May 8, 2014)

Asclepias said:


> gipper said:
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> > Asclepias said:
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I am referring to political leadership only.  Leadership in other areas of our society, I am fine with.  

Related to political leadership, we can't know what a society would be like without them, since it has never been tried.  I would like to give it a try, since it could hardly be worse.


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## Asclepias (May 8, 2014)

gipper said:


> Asclepias said:
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> > gipper said:
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As long as there are humans you will have political leadership.  Its how we are built and how we survived being social animals. People would lose their minds without it as it is against our instincts.


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## Darkwind (May 10, 2014)

gipper said:


> Darkwind said:
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> > gipper said:
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Do you know any history at all?

Leaps forward, advances in everything from humanities to science all happen at the urging of men of vision.  With vision, a leader can motivate, organize, and keep things on track.

We would not have a space program, or thousands of other such things.  The list is just to large to enumerate on how the world benefits from leaders.

To say we don't need them is tantamount to saying we do okay just milling about fruitlessly.


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## gipper (May 10, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> gipper said:
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> > Darkwind said:
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Please read my posts.  You misunderstand.


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## Avatar4321 (May 12, 2014)

My experience leaders are made. But some have natural skills that lead to leadership.


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## Asclepias (May 12, 2014)

Avatar4321 said:


> My experience leaders are made. But some have natural skills that lead to leadership.



Skills are learned so that would indicate that leaders are made.  I believe it starts with the philosophy a leader adopts and sticks to.


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## SayMyName (May 13, 2014)

My experience reveals to me that it has been a combination of the two. Some that are born, but not allowed the proper guidance can end up no where, whereas the one that has received a great deal of cultivation and guidance can rise to great heights. Those that are fortunate to receive both move mountains.


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## DriftingSand (May 13, 2014)

shart_attack said:


> Are the greatest leaders born, i.e. entitled via aristocracy or plutocracy, or are they made great via the nicks, pings and bruises on their bodies and the dirt under their fingernails acquired from the charismatic camaraderie and quantification of hard work?
> 
> Me, I tend to think that the best leaders are made, not born.
> 
> ...



I'd say that the majority of leaders are born with an inclination to be leaders but are generally made.  However, I'd say that the greatest leaders were born leaders and self made.


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## Asclepias (May 13, 2014)

You are blank slate when you are born.  Minus physical gifts you are no more a leader than anyone else.  Its what you learn along the way that makes leaders. Hence they are made.


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## Vikrant (Nov 7, 2014)

I think anyone who lives his life under extraordinary circumstances is forced into a leadership role. At this point, you either sink or swim.  At this juncture, your genetic gifts may help you out a bit but other than that, it is all life.


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