# Pro-life at 51%



## alan1

Abortion

The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.


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## DamnYankee

Read that yesterday. So, would 5% split the atom?


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## AllieBaba

And of those who are pro-choice, a huge chunk of them are pro-choice only in limited circumstances.


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## DavidS

Good for the 51%. Hopefully that means less abortions this year, which hopefully means less pregnant single mothers. 

Other than that - this poll is irrelevant. I wouldn't care if the number is at 98% - the 2% deserve the right to choose.


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## DavidS

AllieBaba said:


> And of those who are pro-choice, a huge chunk of them are pro-choice only in limited circumstances.



I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.

Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.


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## AllieBaba

What a shame they are so routine, then, and abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats.


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## Article 15

DavidS said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And of those who are pro-choice, a huge chunk of them are pro-choice only in limited circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
Click to expand...


I'm a first trimester and life of the mother in danger guy.

Making it illegal and returning to back alley coat hanger job days doesn't sound like a good policy to me.


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## AllieBaba

That's such a ridiculous and trite statement. Women still die from abortions, abortionists are still freaks of nature who don't give a shit about life (including the life of the mother) and we have no reliable stats to prove that things are any better today than they used to be. Nor do we have anything like stats to prove that if abortion were to become illegal (as murder should be, nobody has a "right" to kill those who inconvenience them...) women would start dying in droves because they just HAVE to get rid of that baby.


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## Luissa

AllieBaba said:


> That's such a ridiculous and trite statement. Women still die from abortions, abortionists are still freaks of nature who don't give a shit about life (including the life of the mother) and we have no reliable stats to prove that things are any better today than they used to be. Nor do we have anything like stats to prove that if abortion were to become illegal (as murder should be, nobody has a "right" to kill those who inconvenience them...) women would start dying in droves because they just HAVE to get rid of that baby.



you have obviously never seen an abortion performed or even been to planned parenthood.


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## midcan5

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State."   Edward Abbey

If those opposed to abortion supported child care and nutritional service for all children I could take them serious.
The act of sex wastes life, destroys the potential for life. Quit purposeless sex if you are serious about life.
If your only argument is a few cells become life those same cells die so potential has no meaning.
Animals are conscious beings and we kill and eat them daily. Some kill them for sport. So life is only important if it is my species life?
Each month the opportunity for life presents itself for a woman and yet they often prevent life from forming. If you carry anti pro-choice arguments to their extreme you have to allow me mine. This is true for men as well. Give life as often as you can or don't tell others what they should do.
By potential I mean we die, so again if I follow the extreme argument of the anti pro group, just as we are born we die so is death ok as it is where we end up anyway. Suicide anyone.
4000 living, breathing, sentient beings die daily and we argue abortion.
No one is killing innocent children they are just doing the same things everyone does when they prevent life from coming to fruition.
50% of fertilized eggs perish, God is screwing up here.
Ever look in a microscope at your semen. Lots of life there. Stop beating off.
In Genesis 38 we read that Onan "spilled his seed upon the ground," an act that so displeased the Lord that He struck him dead.
Let's support education and preventative measures and stop the BS that surrounds abortion.
Let's help those children who make it through but have so little.
And if the constitution/law mattered to you you would not care about abortion as it is legal. Right? 


Boston Review &mdash; Judith Jarvis Thomson


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## catzmeow

I'm first trimester, life of the mother, too.

BUt, I will say that i think you do have to give women a way out that is safe and legal, at least within those circumstances.


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## AllieBaba

Luissa said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's such a ridiculous and trite statement. Women still die from abortions, abortionists are still freaks of nature who don't give a shit about life (including the life of the mother) and we have no reliable stats to prove that things are any better today than they used to be. Nor do we have anything like stats to prove that if abortion were to become illegal (as murder should be, nobody has a "right" to kill those who inconvenience them...) women would start dying in droves because they just HAVE to get rid of that baby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you have obviously never seen an abortion performed or even been to planned parenthood.
Click to expand...


Yes to both, dear. Hence my harsh opinion.

And proponents of abortion admit there are no good stats.


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## AllieBaba

midcan5 said:


> "Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State."   Edward Abbey
> 
> If those opposed to abortion supported child care and nutritional service for all children I could take them serious.
> The act of sex wastes life, destroys the potential for life. Quit purposeless sex if you are serious about life.
> If your only argument is a few cells become life those same cells die so potential has no meaning.
> Animals are conscious beings and we kill and eat them daily. Some kill them for sport. So life is only important if it is my species life?
> Each month the opportunity for life presents itself for a woman and yet they often prevent life from forming. If you carry anti pro-choice arguments to their extreme you have to allow me mine. This is true for men as well. Give life as often as you can or don't tell others what they should do.
> By potential I mean we die, so again if I follow the extreme argument of the anti pro group, just as we are born we die so is death ok as it is where we end up anyway. Suicide anyone.
> 4000 living, breathing, sentient beings die daily and we argue abortion.
> No one is killing innocent children they are just doing the same things everyone does when they prevent life from coming to fruition.
> 50% of fertilized eggs perish, God is screwing up here.
> Ever look in a microscope at your semen. Lots of life there. Stop beating off.
> In Genesis 38 we read that Onan "spilled his seed upon the ground," an act that so displeased the Lord that He struck him dead.
> Let's support education and preventative measures and stop the BS that surrounds abortion.
> Let's help those children who make it through but have so little.
> And if the constitution/law mattered to you you would not care about abortion as it is legal. Right?
> 
> 
> Boston Review &mdash; Judith Jarvis Thomson




Abortion was made legal by JUDGES, which is wrong in a democratic society.

The majority has ALWAYS been against it. Which is why this issue won't die down. We never voted to make murder legal so rich white college girls could sleep around.


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## Anguille

MountainMan said:


> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.


I'm pro life, that's why I'm pro choice.

It doesn't really matter if people are for or against abortion, that's a personal matter. What matters is if they would support legislation restricting abortion. 

The question is actually what is the percentage of  pro choice people versus anti choice people.


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## AllieBaba

Is all murder a personal matter?


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## DavidS

AllieBaba said:


> That's such a ridiculous and trite statement. Women still die from abortions, abortionists are still freaks of nature who don't give a shit about life (including the life of the mother) and we have no reliable stats to prove that things are any better today than they used to be. Nor do we have anything like stats to prove that if abortion were to become illegal (as murder should be, nobody has a "right" to kill those who inconvenience them...) women would start dying in droves because they just HAVE to get rid of that baby.



Not only have I made the choice with my then girlfriend to have an abortion, I was in the center with my girlfriend and met the doctors who performed the abortion.

I can say, for a certainty, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Abortions don't happen because nobody cares about the life of the baby - abortions occur because people care about the life of the mother more than the life of the baby. In my situation, I'm not sure my ex girlfriend wouldn't have done something to the baby. She was suffering from severe anxiety and bi-polar disorder and had to be off of the medication in order to keep the baby. Coupled with the raging hormones in her system - it was a bad situation. 

You have no idea what people's situations are or how they handle them. Sometimes it's better to not be born than to be born into terrible situations.


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## AllieBaba

In other words, because they don't give a shit about the baby.

I don't give a shit who you are or where you were. I worked with addicts and women and I've been to abortion clinics, where they were performing abortions on women who were obviously very close to due, and another time on (my client) who WASN'T EVEN FLIPPING PREGNANT. They told her AFTER the "abortion" that she had already miscarried.

But they took her fucking $600 all the same, you better believe it.


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## Luissa

AllieBaba said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's such a ridiculous and trite statement. Women still die from abortions, abortionists are still freaks of nature who don't give a shit about life (including the life of the mother) and we have no reliable stats to prove that things are any better today than they used to be. Nor do we have anything like stats to prove that if abortion were to become illegal (as murder should be, nobody has a "right" to kill those who inconvenience them...) women would start dying in droves because they just HAVE to get rid of that baby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you have obviously never seen an abortion performed or even been to planned parenthood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes to both, dear. Hence my harsh opinion.
> 
> And proponents of abortion admit there are no good stats.
Click to expand...

abortion are much safer than they used to be and you cannot deny that. I have been to planned parenthood and have seen a few abortions, the doctor was very safe and seemed to care quite a bit about the person's well being. You want to believe they are bad so it can make you feel better about your choice.


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## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> In other words, because they don't give a shit about the baby.
> 
> I don't give a shit who you are or where you were. I worked with addicts and women and I've been to abortion clinics, where they were performing abortions on women who were obviously very close to due, and another time on (my client) who WASN'T EVEN FLIPPING PREGNANT. They told her AFTER the "abortion" that she had already miscarried.
> 
> But they took her fucking $600 all the same, you better believe it.


Obviously _you_ don't give a shit about babies.


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## AllieBaba

And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."

But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."

The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.


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## AllieBaba

Anguille said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, because they don't give a shit about the baby.
> 
> I don't give a shit who you are or where you were. I worked with addicts and women and I've been to abortion clinics, where they were performing abortions on women who were obviously very close to due, and another time on (my client) who WASN'T EVEN FLIPPING PREGNANT. They told her AFTER the "abortion" that she had already miscarried.
> 
> But they took her fucking $600 all the same, you better believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously _you_ don't give a shit about babies.
Click to expand...


What ridiculous rhetoric.

Provide some evidence that aborted children are better off being aborted. Go ahead. I dare you. I double dog dare you.


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## Iriemon

MountainMan said:


> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.



I don't understand that statistic.  51% say they are "pro-life", yet according to the polling data:

 o Only 30% would overrule Roe
 o Only 23% think abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

Those don't sound like "pro-life" is at 51% to me.  Maybe it reflects those who consider themselves personally to be "pro-life" in that they personally wouldn't have an abortion, but they support a woman's right to choose, which is really not the pro-life position but a pro-choice position.


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## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."
> 
> But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."
> 
> The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.


You hear what you want to hear.


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## Pyrite

AllieBaba said:


> That's such a ridiculous and trite statement. Women still die from abortions, abortionists are still freaks of nature who don't give a shit about life (including the life of the mother) and we have no reliable stats to prove that things are any better today than they used to be. Nor do we have anything like stats to prove that if abortion were to become illegal (as murder should be, nobody has a "right" to kill those who inconvenience them...) women would start dying in droves because they just HAVE to get rid of that baby.



From the CDC:


> Compared with the early 1970s, the annual number of deaths associated with known legal induced abortion in the first half of this decade has decreased by nearly two thirds (Table 19).


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## AllieBaba

Anguille said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, because they don't give a shit about the baby.
> 
> I don't give a shit who you are or where you were. I worked with addicts and women and I've been to abortion clinics, where they were performing abortions on women who were obviously very close to due, and another time on (my client) who WASN'T EVEN FLIPPING PREGNANT. They told her AFTER the "abortion" that she had already miscarried.
> 
> But they took her fucking $600 all the same, you better believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously _you_ don't give a shit about babies.
Click to expand...


I've also worked with women who were in treatment because they were pregnant and on dope, and were not interested in getting abortions. I took care of their babies.

Should we have forced them to abort, do you think?


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## Anguille

Iriemon said:


> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand that statistic.  51% say they are "pro-life", yet according to the polling data:
> 
> o Only 30% would overrule Roe
> o Only 23% think abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.
> 
> Those don't sound like "pro-life" is at 51% to me.  Maybe it reflects those who consider themselves personally to be "pro-life" in that they personally wouldn't have an abortion, but they support a woman's right to choose, which is really not the pro-life position but a pro-choice position.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the stats. I wonder what percentage believe abortion should be legal in all circumstances.


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## AllieBaba

The CDC. Lol.

"Inaccuracy in women's reports of their abortion histories affects many areas of interest to reproductive health professionals and researchers. The identification of characteristics that affect the accuracy of reporting is essential for the improvement of data collection methods. A comparison of the medical records of 104 American women aged 27-30 in 1990-1991 with their self-reported abortion histories revealed that 19% of these women failed to report one or more abortions. Results of logistic regression analysis indicate that nonwhite women were 3.3 times as likely as whites to underreport. With each additional year that had elapsed since the first recorded abortion, women became somewhat more likely to underreport (odds ratio of 1.3), while each additional year of a woman's education slightly decreased the likelihood of underreporting (odds ratio of 0.7). 

(Family Planning Perspectives, 28:228-231, 1996) 

Underreporting of abortions is a persistent problem in studies conducted in the United States and elsewhere, irrespective of the research design or study population. Abortions are underreported at different rates both between and within populations, which suggests that underreporting is not simply a function of individual-level behavioral characteristics. Demographic variation suggests that social forces affect underreporting. Furthermore, how questions about abortion are asked appears to be as important as women's behavioral, demographic and social characteristics.

Inaccuracy in self-reported abortion histories affects many areas of interest to demographers and epidemiologists. Estimates of abortion, contraceptive failure,1 miscarriage2 and reproductive histories that rely on self-reports are all subject to bias by abortion underreporting, and the extent of bias in each case is unknown. The determination of the predictors of underreporting is therefore critical to building a body of knowledge that may lead to the development of better data collection methods and more meaningful statistical weights."
A Medical Record Linkage Analysis of Abortion Underreporting

BTW, the Guttmacher site is full of disclaimers regarding abortion stats.

BTW, the CDC gets their info from them.


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## Iriemon

anguille said:


> iriemon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mountainman said:
> 
> 
> 
> abortion
> 
> the latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i don't understand that statistic.  51% say they are "pro-life", yet according to the polling data:
> 
> O only 30% would overrule roe
> o only 23% think abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.
> 
> Those don't sound like "pro-life" is at 51% to me.  Maybe it reflects those who consider themselves personally to be "pro-life" in that they personally wouldn't have an abortion, but they support a woman's right to choose, which is really not the pro-life position but a pro-choice position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> thanks for the stats. I wonder what percentage believe abortion should be legal in all circumstances.
Click to expand...


22% according to the latest gallup poll.  The rest (about 50%) think abortion should be legal in some circumstances, which are not identified.


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## catzmeow

AllieBaba said:


> And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."
> 
> But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."
> 
> The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.



You know what?  So what.  NO matter how careful people are, accidents can happen.  I had a pregnancy scare with my boyfriend last year.  We'd been dating for about 6 months, and I missed a period.

Fortunately, I wasn't pregnant, but in that week, I thought about whether or not I could have a baby. At this point in my life, I couldn't.  I'm 43, with two kids, and not married.  I cannot afford the expense, the time off work, and I don't want to take time away from my kids to raise another baby.

I know for a fact that I'd have aborted.

And you know what?  That's well within my rights.  I'm more than an egg-incubator.  A fetus at 4 weeks is not a human infant.  They are not at all the same.  Sure that fetus contains the POTENTIAL to become a human infant, but it's not there.  It's a tiny cluster of cells.

I miscarried when I was 26.  I caught the baby in my hand in the bathroom, after hours of agony.  I was 12 weeks pregnant.

I've delivered 2 healthy full term babies.  

They are not remotely the same.

If anyone doesn't give a crap about babies, it's GOD.  1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.  Most of the fetuses are too damaged or malformed to survive.  Most women who miscarry do so before they are even aware that they are pregnant.

Beyond that, if God cares so much, why does he allow millions of children - every single year - to starve to death?

Being pro-abortion during the first trimester is not the same as being pro-abortion for a late term abortion.

And, I get tired of your inflammatory, judgemental rhetoric, Allie.

You're a self-righteous jerk.   I'm tired of the fanatics controlling this discussion, as if they have a right to.

If you would never have an abortion, well-done you.  You don't get the right to make that decision for someone else.  Nor are you entitled to judge women who choose differently.


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## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, because they don't give a shit about the baby.
> 
> I don't give a shit who you are or where you were. I worked with addicts and women and I've been to abortion clinics, where they were performing abortions on women who were obviously very close to due, and another time on (my client) who WASN'T EVEN FLIPPING PREGNANT. They told her AFTER the "abortion" that she had already miscarried.
> 
> But they took her fucking $600 all the same, you better believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously _you_ don't give a shit about babies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've also worked with women who were in treatment because they were pregnant and on dope, and were not interested in getting abortions. I took care of their babies.
> 
> Should we have forced them to abort, do you think?
Click to expand...


It's wrong to force a woman to abort just as it's wrong to prevent her from doing so.


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## strollingbones

MountainMan said:


> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.



and your point?  you think anyone really wants to stop a multi million dollar business?


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## AllieBaba

catzmeow said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."
> 
> But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."
> 
> The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what?  So what.  NO matter how careful people are, accidents can happen.  I had a pregnancy scare with my boyfriend last year.  We'd been dating for about 6 months, and I missed a period.
> 
> Fortunately, I wasn't pregnant, but in that week, I thought about whether or not I could have a baby. At this point in my life, I couldn't.  I'm 43, with two kids, and not married.  I cannot afford the expense, the time off work, and I don't want to take time away from my kids to raise another baby.
> 
> I know for a fact that I'd have aborted.
> 
> And you know what?  That's well within my rights.  I'm more than an egg-incubator.  A fetus at 4 weeks is not a human infant.  They are not at all the same.  Sure that fetus contains the POTENTIAL to become a human infant, but it's not there.  It's a tiny cluster of cells.
> 
> I miscarried when I was 26.  I caught the baby in my hand in the bathroom, after hours of agony.  I was 12 weeks pregnant.
> 
> I've delivered 2 healthy full term babies.
> 
> They are not remotely the same.
> 
> Being pro-abortion during the first trimester is not the same as being pro-abortion for a late term abortion.
> 
> And, I get tired of your inflammatory, judgemental rhetoric, Allie.
> 
> You're a self-righteous jerk.
Click to expand...


And you're a smug, self-centered ass. I don't care if you missed your period. Just because you want to fuck your boyfriend carelessly is no excuse to kill a baby, even if it's yours.

I've had 4 babies, and miscarried one at 24 weeks. I was life-flighted out, so your sad story about the miscarriage holds no water with me because I've been there too. Not sure what you were trying to prove. 

Your rights end where another's begin, and another's begin in your belly. If you don't like that, get your tubes tied and hope the doctor who does it isn't high. Abortion became legal by BY-PASSING the majority with a law made by liberal judges, based on testimony which was later recanted.

It shouldn't be legal, the majority never wanted it and still doesn't, and it's murder.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you pompous bitch.


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## AllieBaba

strollingbones said:


> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and your point?  you think anyone really wants to stop a multi million dollar business?
Click to expand...


The libs certainly don't. Planned Parenthood is their mealticket.


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## catzmeow

AllieBaba said:


> And you're a smug, self-centered ass. I don't care if you missed your period. Just because you want to fuck your boyfriend carelessly is no excuse to kill a baby, even if it's yours.



A 4 -week old clump of cells is not a baby.  i've been there, done that.  And, they aren't the same.

Deal.  Not all of us subscribe to your god myth.  As stated, "God" kills far more babies than humans ever will.

To me, a 4-week old fetus is a clump of cells.  It's the difference between a sentence and a fully-fleshed out novel.  It's an idea, not a thinking, sentient being.

You can pretend otherwise, but anyone who has taken a basic biology class knows the difference.

Go back to your bible thumping, you pretentious posturing cow.


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## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."
> 
> But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."
> 
> The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what?  So what.  NO matter how careful people are, accidents can happen.  I had a pregnancy scare with my boyfriend last year.  We'd been dating for about 6 months, and I missed a period.
> 
> Fortunately, I wasn't pregnant, but in that week, I thought about whether or not I could have a baby. At this point in my life, I couldn't.  I'm 43, with two kids, and not married.  I cannot afford the expense, the time off work, and I don't want to take time away from my kids to raise another baby.
> 
> I know for a fact that I'd have aborted.
> 
> And you know what?  That's well within my rights.  I'm more than an egg-incubator.  A fetus at 4 weeks is not a human infant.  They are not at all the same.  Sure that fetus contains the POTENTIAL to become a human infant, but it's not there.  It's a tiny cluster of cells.
> 
> I miscarried when I was 26.  I caught the baby in my hand in the bathroom, after hours of agony.  I was 12 weeks pregnant.
> 
> I've delivered 2 healthy full term babies.
> 
> They are not remotely the same.
> 
> Being pro-abortion during the first trimester is not the same as being pro-abortion for a late term abortion.
> 
> And, I get tired of your inflammatory, judgemental rhetoric, Allie.
> 
> You're a self-righteous jerk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you're a smug, self-centered ass. I don't care if you missed your period. Just because you want to fuck your boyfriend carelessly is no excuse to kill a baby, even if it's yours.
> 
> I've had 4 babies, and miscarried one at 24 weeks. I was life-flighted out, so your sad story about the miscarriage holds no water with me because I've been there too. Not sure what you were trying to prove.
> 
> Your rights end where another's begin, and another's begin in your belly. If you don't like that, get your tubes tied and hope the doctor who does it isn't high. Abortion became legal by BY-PASSING the majority with a law made by liberal judges, based on testimony which was later recanted.
> 
> It shouldn't be legal, the majority never wanted it and still doesn't, and it's murder.
> 
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you pompous bitch.
Click to expand...

You have no sympathy whatsoever for a woman who suffered a painful miscarriage? I think you hate women as much as you hate babies.
And that terrible pun about not holding water ...


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## Yukon

Who cares? Abortion is legal and will stay so. 



MountainMan said:


> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.


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## elvis

Yukon said:


> Who cares? Abortion is legal and will stay so.
> 
> 
> 
> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
Click to expand...


too bad your mother didn't have one.


----------



## Hillbilly

Does anyone ever think about how selfish it is to destroy something that someone else is working so hard to get. There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption. 

Abortion is no different than when the government decided another group weren't really people and therefore couldn't vote, i.e. the blacks. 

A baby is not a part of a woman's body and she has no jurisdiction over it.


----------



## Anguille

Hillbilly said:


> There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.


  So go out and adopt one.


----------



## KittenKoder

Hillbilly said:


> Does anyone ever think about how selfish it is to destroy something that someone else is working so hard to get. There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.
> 
> Abortion is no different than when the government decided another group weren't really people and therefore couldn't vote, i.e. the blacks.
> 
> A baby is not a part of a woman's body and she has no jurisdiction over it.



There is no shortage of adoptable children either, that's just the systems red tape at fault.


----------



## catzmeow

Hillbilly said:


> A baby is not a part of a woman's body and she has no jurisdiction over it.



Cool.  If I ever have another spare fetus, it's all yours.


----------



## Yukon

Now that Obama has "legalized" stem cell research Im certain that the rate of abortion will increase once research centre start paying women for aborted fetal tissue. Im sure in some of the upscale ghetto's of DC the women will line up.


----------



## alan1

Iriemon said:


> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand that statistic.  51% say they are "pro-life", yet according to the polling data:
> 
> o Only 30% would overrule Roe
> o Only 23% think abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.
> 
> Those don't sound like "pro-life" is at 51% to me.  Maybe it reflects those who consider themselves personally to be "pro-life" in that they personally wouldn't have an abortion, but they support a woman's right to choose, which is really not the pro-life position but a pro-choice position.
Click to expand...


I just posted the statistic.


----------



## KittenKoder

Yukon said:


> Now that Obama has "legalized" stem cell research Im certain that the rate of abortion will increase once research centre start paying women for aborted fetal tissue. Im sure in some of the upscale ghetto's of DC the women will line up.



You need that stem cell research, so they can grow a brain for you so you can learn more about stem cell research.


----------



## Yukon

MOUNTAINMAN,

The anti-free choice, religious zealots play with statistics - "Statistics lie and liars use statistics"


----------



## William Joyce

catzmeow said:


> And, I get tired of your inflammatory, judgemental rhetoric, Allie.
> 
> You're a self-righteous jerk.   I'm tired of the fanatics controlling this discussion, as if they have a right to.



Calling abortion opponents "jerks" is a sure way to demonstrate your open-mindedness, alright.  You declare anyone who opposes abortion to be a "fanatic".  I guess this means anyone who supports abortion if a fair-minded, thoughtful person. 

Great.

What amazes me is that the left has so jacked up our value system in America that we HAVE DEBATES about abortion.

An elective abortion is a gruesome -- both morally and physically -- act.  A child can figure out that it's wrong.  It takes adult feminists to make it "debatable."

Imagine a debate over slavery.

A debate over letting women vote.

To some, even having a "debate" over these issues would be absurd.

But we live in America.

"It's my body, and I choose to use it to enslave black Africans.  It's my personal choice.  You just don't understand because you're not in my situation."

Right.

Imagine that.

I just don't get abortion as a LIBERAL issue.  Liberals, great champions of the powerless, the voiceless, the weak.  And yet with an unborn child, they say, whip out the knives and cut that fucker in four chunks and stuff it in a medical waste bag.  And then declare your act of murder to be "liberation."

THAT is sick.

And listen to all these assholes try to retroactively justify their murderousness through political means.  I love it.  The left essentially allows people to justify their wickedness with trite mental exercises and ridiculous rhetoric.

It's like when the right glosses over civilian killings in wartime... "Well, it's my country, right or wrong."  "Well, I love America."  "Aren't you a patriot?  Don't talk about that stuff!"

Duh.

It sounds just as stupid to me.  We're talking about innocents killed.  But you don't even want us to mention it.  Don't want to look at the pictures.  No acknowledgment of what actually took place.

That's Orwell's nightmare.


----------



## KittenKoder

Yukon said:


> MOUNTAINMAN,
> 
> The anti-free choice, religious zealots play with statistics - "Statistics lie and liars use statistics"



I wonder if you realize that you just posted truth without intending to.


----------



## alan1

strollingbones said:


> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *and your point*?  you think anyone really wants to stop a multi million dollar business?
Click to expand...


Since you asked.
For the last 8 years the numbers have been different, in other words, the majority was on the pro-choice side.
All of the sudden those numbers changed, as soon as we got a pro-choice president, the pendulum swung.
Perhaps the staunchly pro-life stance of the previous administration scared people into thinking he might try and over turn Roe V Wade, thus people moved to the other side of the issue.
Now we a president that is staunchly pro-choice, and maybe people are just as scared of his extreme view of the matter and are reacting by moving to the other side of the issue again.


----------



## KittenKoder

MountainMan said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *and your point*?  you think anyone really wants to stop a multi million dollar business?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since you asked.
> For the last 8 years the numbers have been different, in other words, the majority was on the pro-choice side.
> All of the sudden those numbers changed, as soon as we got a pro-choice president, the pendulum swung.
> Perhaps the staunchly pro-life stance of the previous administration scared people into thinking he might try and over turn Roe V Wade, thus people moved to the other side of the issue.
> Now we a president that is staunchly pro-choice, and maybe people are just as scared of his extreme view of the matter and are reacting by moving to the other side of the issue again.
Click to expand...


That's actually a very strange event. You may have hit on something there.


----------



## WillowTree

tsk tsk tsk,, I can tell by this conversation it's going to be quite a while before we reach the obamalama's lofty goal of "finding common ground."


----------



## strollingbones

Hillbilly said:


> Does anyone ever think about how selfish it is to destroy something that someone else is working so hard to get. There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.
> 
> Abortion is no different than when the government decided another group weren't really people and therefore couldn't vote, i.e. the blacks.
> 
> A baby is not a part of a woman's body and she has no jurisdiction over it.




there is no shortage of kids needing adopted in the us....are women really to be baby factories for those who cant have kids..everyone seems to want the perfect white male infant.....so you case that abortion needs to be outlawed so people can adopt is bullshit....if you would like to adopt a child ..i will be glad to find you a child in need of a home...


----------



## catzmeow

William Joyce said:


> Calling abortion opponents "jerks" is a sure way to demonstrate your open-mindedness, alright.  You declare anyone who opposes abortion to be a "fanatic".



Actually, I oppose abortion after the first trimester.  That comment was specific to Allie.  Feel free not to wear it unless it fits.  



> I guess this means anyone who supports abortion if a fair-minded, thoughtful person.



Absolutely not.  Some of the people who support any abortion at any point in time, for any reason, are absolute wingnuts.

The rest was just a non-applicable rant, so I felt free not to respond to it.


----------



## catzmeow

strollingbones said:


> are women really to be baby factories



I suspect that in hillbilly's world, that's ALL women are supposed to be.


----------



## Xenophon

When it gets to 60, sell!


----------



## KittenKoder

Xenophon said:


> When it gets to 60, sell!



I take chances, make it 70.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

DavidS said:


> Good for the 51%. Hopefully that means less abortions this year, which hopefully means less pregnant single mothers.
> 
> Other than that - this poll is irrelevant. I wouldn't care if the number is at 98% - the 2% deserve the right to choose.



Unless they are Arabs in Palestine right?


----------



## DavidS

RetiredGySgt said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for the 51%. Hopefully that means less abortions this year, which hopefully means less pregnant single mothers.
> 
> Other than that - this poll is irrelevant. I wouldn't care if the number is at 98% - the 2% deserve the right to choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless they are Arabs in Palestine right?
Click to expand...


Arabs in Israel, you mean. Palestine doesn't exist.

And no, they should all just be sterilized.


----------



## Hillbilly

Anguille said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.
> 
> 
> 
> So go out and adopt one.
Click to expand...


I phrased that ambiguously by accident. Let me rephrase. There is no shortage of people waiting to adopt children. 

My personal opinion on whether I want to adopt a child is not germane to this discussion.


----------



## Seraega

Way to cherry pick from teh gallop poll when a lot of others performed in the last month show different results.  Abortion  The pro-life side has seen a slight increase, but when they drill down and ask more specific questions a resounding 77% say they support abortion in some circumstances.   Me thinks those 51% are bullshitting themselves.  I'm sorry but allowing an exception for rape, incest or the health of the mother does not make you pro-life.  It makes you a hypocrite.


----------



## DavidS

Hillbilly said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.
> 
> 
> 
> So go out and adopt one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I phrased that ambiguously by accident. Let me rephrase. There is no shortage of people waiting to adopt children.
> 
> My personal opinion on whether I want to adopt a child is not germane to this discussion.
Click to expand...


Were YOU adopted Hillbilly? Do you have any idea what it is like to live as an adopted child? Please do not spout off bullshit about being adopted and how wonderful it is until you have actually experienced it.


----------



## elvis

DavidS said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for the 51%. Hopefully that means less abortions this year, which hopefully means less pregnant single mothers.
> 
> Other than that - this poll is irrelevant. I wouldn't care if the number is at 98% - the 2% deserve the right to choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless they are Arabs in Palestine right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Arabs in Israel, you mean. Palestine doesn't exist.
> 
> And no, they should all just be sterilized.
Click to expand...


Are you concerned about the fact that it is projected that in 30 years there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews?


----------



## DavidS

elvis3577 said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless they are Arabs in Palestine right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arabs in Israel, you mean. Palestine doesn't exist.
> 
> And no, they should all just be sterilized.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about the fact that it is projected that in 30 years there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews?
Click to expand...


Not if I can help it.







Besides, the birth rate of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are that of the Arabs in Israel. We are finally getting back at them for doing what they did to us 80 years ago: Illegally populating their land. We have half a million people there now - who are each having around 7 children. Within 20 years from now, the Jewish population of the West Bank could reach up to 3 million people. Within 50 years from now, there could be up to 10 million Jews. All the while, the fertility rate among Arab-Israeli women is steadily decreasing and the illegal Arab immigrants who are living in Gaza and the West Bank have terrible health care and live shorter, less productive lives than Jews do. 

By the time I am old enough to be a great grandfather, hopefully the Arabs will have been kicked out of Israeli territory and there will be only Jews and Christians living there.


----------



## Article 15

Seraega said:


> Way to cherry pick from teh gallop poll when a lot of others performed in the last month show different results.  Abortion  The pro-life side has seen a slight increase, but when they drill down and ask more specific questions a resounding 77% say they support abortion in some circumstances.   Me thinks those 51% are bullshitting themselves.  I'm sorry but allowing an exception for rape, incest or the health of the mother does not make you pro-life.  It makes you a hypocrite.



Moderates own this issue.


----------



## elvis

DavidS said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Arabs in Israel, you mean. Palestine doesn't exist.
> 
> And no, they should all just be sterilized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about the fact that it is projected that in 30 years there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not if I can help it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, the birth rate of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are that of the Arabs in Israel. We are finally getting back at them for doing what they did to us 80 years ago: Illegally populating their land. We have half a million people there now - who are each having around 7 children. Within 20 years from now, the Jewish population of the West Bank could reach up to 3 million people. Within 50 years from now, there could be up to 10 million Jews. All the while, the fertility rate among Arab-Israeli women is steadily decreasing and the illegal Arab immigrants who are living in Gaza and the West Bank have terrible health care and live shorter, less productive lives than Jews do.
> 
> By the time I am old enough to be a great grandfather, hopefully the Arabs will have been kicked out of Israeli territory and there will be only Jews and Christians living there.
Click to expand...


I thought Sharon demolished those settlements.


----------



## DavidS

elvis3577 said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about the fact that it is projected that in 30 years there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not if I can help it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, the birth rate of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are that of the Arabs in Israel. We are finally getting back at them for doing what they did to us 80 years ago: Illegally populating their land. We have half a million people there now - who are each having around 7 children. Within 20 years from now, the Jewish population of the West Bank could reach up to 3 million people. Within 50 years from now, there could be up to 10 million Jews. All the while, the fertility rate among Arab-Israeli women is steadily decreasing and the illegal Arab immigrants who are living in Gaza and the West Bank have terrible health care and live shorter, less productive lives than Jews do.
> 
> By the time I am old enough to be a great grandfather, hopefully the Arabs will have been kicked out of Israeli territory and there will be only Jews and Christians living there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought Sharon demolished those settlements.
Click to expand...


Sharon forced the settlements out of Gaza. Which I agree with because it's pretty difficult to lay waste to Gaza with Jews living there.


----------



## Hillbilly

DavidS said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So go out and adopt one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I phrased that ambiguously by accident. Let me rephrase. There is no shortage of people waiting to adopt children.
> 
> My personal opinion on whether I want to adopt a child is not germane to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were YOU adopted Hillbilly? Do you have any idea what it is like to live as an adopted child? Please do not spout off bullshit about being adopted and how wonderful it is until you have actually experienced it.
Click to expand...


Were you adopted? My best friend was adopted. It never bothered him any. It seems your opinion must be that people adopt children just so they can treat them like shit. You need to justify your ridiculous insinuations.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Article 15 said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And of those who are pro-choice, a huge chunk of them are pro-choice only in limited circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a first trimester and life of the mother in danger guy.
> 
> Making it illegal and returning to back alley coat hanger job days doesn't sound like a good policy to me.
Click to expand...


Then I guess it's fortunate that that isn't what's being suggested, and also that coathanger abortions are an urban legend.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Luissa said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> you have obviously never seen an abortion performed or even been to planned parenthood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to both, dear. Hence my harsh opinion.
> 
> And proponents of abortion admit there are no good stats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> abortion are much safer than they used to be and you cannot deny that. I have been to planned parenthood and have seen a few abortions, the doctor was very safe and seemed to care quite a bit about the person's well being. You want to believe they are bad so it can make you feel better about your choice.
Click to expand...


Sure they are.  So is childbirth.  And it ain't because of legality.  It's because of the widespread use of antibiotics to prevent infection, and an increase in medical technology in general.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Pyrite said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's such a ridiculous and trite statement. Women still die from abortions, abortionists are still freaks of nature who don't give a shit about life (including the life of the mother) and we have no reliable stats to prove that things are any better today than they used to be. Nor do we have anything like stats to prove that if abortion were to become illegal (as murder should be, nobody has a "right" to kill those who inconvenience them...) women would start dying in droves because they just HAVE to get rid of that baby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the CDC:
> 
> 
> 
> Compared with the early 1970s, the annual number of deaths associated with known legal induced abortion in the first half of this decade has decreased by nearly two thirds (Table 19).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I notice they didn't say it was because of legality, though.  Feel free to look up the CDC's stats on women and babies dying in regular childbirth in the 1970s versus now.  Medical technology improves, and we're supposed to attribute the results of those advances to Roe v. Wade?  I don't think so.


----------



## Cecilie1200

elvis3577 said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares? Abortion is legal and will stay so.
> 
> 
> 
> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> too bad your mother didn't have one.
Click to expand...


Who says she didn't?


----------



## DavidS

Hillbilly said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I phrased that ambiguously by accident. Let me rephrase. There is no shortage of people waiting to adopt children.
> 
> My personal opinion on whether I want to adopt a child is not germane to this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were YOU adopted Hillbilly? Do you have any idea what it is like to live as an adopted child? Please do not spout off bullshit about being adopted and how wonderful it is until you have actually experienced it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were you adopted? My best friend was adopted. It never bothered him any. It seems your opinion must be that people adopt children just so they can treat them like shit. You need to justify your ridiculous insinuations.
Click to expand...


Do your research on long-term psychological effects of adopted children. It's not as sunshine and rainbows as you think it is.


----------



## Article 15

Cecilie1200 said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a first trimester and life of the mother in danger guy.
> 
> Making it illegal and returning to back alley coat hanger job days doesn't sound like a good policy to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then I guess it's fortunate that that isn't what's being suggested, and also that coathanger abortions are an urban legend.
Click to expand...


I don't recall anything being suggested ...  it was an opinion poll and I provided my opinion.

What are you suggesting?


----------



## Hillbilly

DavidS said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were YOU adopted Hillbilly? Do you have any idea what it is like to live as an adopted child? Please do not spout off bullshit about being adopted and how wonderful it is until you have actually experienced it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were you adopted? My best friend was adopted. It never bothered him any. It seems your opinion must be that people adopt children just so they can treat them like shit. You need to justify your ridiculous insinuations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do your research on long-term psychological effects of adopted children. It's not as sunshine and rainbows as you think it is.
Click to expand...


You're right, we should just kill them all instead.


----------



## DavidS

Hillbilly said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were you adopted? My best friend was adopted. It never bothered him any. It seems your opinion must be that people adopt children just so they can treat them like shit. You need to justify your ridiculous insinuations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do your research on long-term psychological effects of adopted children. It's not as sunshine and rainbows as you think it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right, we should just kill them all instead.
Click to expand...


You really are stupid, aren't you?

"I had a friend this, I had a friend that." Overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to the whole process. Abandonment, depression, self esteem... many are loners. Again, do your research.


----------



## Hillbilly

DavidS said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do your research on long-term psychological effects of adopted children. It's not as sunshine and rainbows as you think it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, we should just kill them all instead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really are stupid, aren't you?
> 
> "I had a friend this, I had a friend that." Overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to the whole process. Abandonment, depression, self esteem... many are loners. Again, do your research.
Click to expand...


I'm the teacher, you're the dumass, I'll make the assignments. Find proof that the overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to support your claim. Then find a compelling argument why these people should all be murdered by rote.


----------



## Hillbilly

DavidS said:


> "I had a friend this, I had a friend that."



Oh, and these were your terms, not mine, so you are only arguing with yourself.


----------



## DavidS

Hillbilly said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, we should just kill them all instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really are stupid, aren't you?
> 
> "I had a friend this, I had a friend that." Overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to the whole process. Abandonment, depression, self esteem... many are loners. Again, do your research.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm the teacher, you're the dumass, I'll make the assignments. Find proof that the overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to support your claim. Then find a compelling argument why these people should all be murdered by rote.
Click to expand...


Who said they should he murdered? I sure didn't. When you kill bacteria in your body, do you murder it?


----------



## Hillbilly

DavidS said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really are stupid, aren't you?
> 
> "I had a friend this, I had a friend that." Overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to the whole process. Abandonment, depression, self esteem... many are loners. Again, do your research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the teacher, you're the dumass, I'll make the assignments. Find proof that the overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to support your claim. Then find a compelling argument why these people should all be murdered by rote.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who said they should he murdered? I sure didn't. When you kill bacteria in your body, do you murder it?
Click to expand...


When you kill a child, did you murder it? Obviously. A child is not a bacteria. Are you also a Holocaust denier?


----------



## DavidS

Hillbilly said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the teacher, you're the dumass, I'll make the assignments. Find proof that the overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to support your claim. Then find a compelling argument why these people should all be murdered by rote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who said they should he murdered? I sure didn't. When you kill bacteria in your body, do you murder it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you kill a child, did you murder it? Obviously. A child is not a bacteria. Are you also a Holocaust denier?
Click to expand...


An unborn human being is not a child. It is an unborn organism and actually, at some stages of pregnancy, bacteria is more complex than an unborn human being.


----------



## Hillbilly

DavidS said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who said they should he murdered? I sure didn't. When you kill bacteria in your body, do you murder it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you kill a child, did you murder it? Obviously. A child is not a bacteria. Are you also a Holocaust denier?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> An unborn human being is not a child. It is an unborn organism and actually, at some stages of pregnancy, bacteria is more complex than an unborn human being.
Click to expand...


Then why abort it?


----------



## elvis

DavidS said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who said they should he murdered? I sure didn't. When you kill bacteria in your body, do you murder it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you kill a child, did you murder it? Obviously. A child is not a bacteria. Are you also a Holocaust denier?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> An unborn human being is not a child. It is an unborn organism and actually, at some stages of pregnancy, bacteria is more complex than an unborn human being.
Click to expand...


If your friend were lying on the floor, unconscious, how would you know if he were alive?


----------



## Dr Grump

AllieBaba said:


> What a shame they are so routine, then, and abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats.



How routine are they? Got any stats...


----------



## elvis

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame they are so routine, then, and abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How routine are they? Got any stats...
Click to expand...


1.5 million per year in the USA last I checked.


----------



## midcan5

AllieBaba said:


> Is all murder a personal matter?



I've not once heard you protest the invasion of Iraq which killed many living feeling beings and not cells which are discarded monthly.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Abortion is one of those issues where commonsense loses out.

We have a president who wants to "just get along" and agree to disagree on abortion when he is in favor of letting minors obtain abortions without parental notification or consent. who disagrees with providing medical care for those fetuses that happen to survive late term abortion procedures thereby denying what all of us would call a living breathing child life saving medical care.

minors cannot get a tattoo, cannot vote etc and parents are more often than not held responsible for the misdeeds of their minor children but we have a government that favors handing out birth control pills to 8th graders and supports providing invasive, potentially dangerous surgical procedures to minors with absolutely no parental notification or consent all for the sake of abortion rights.

Kids can't even bring Advil to school for fear of being strip searched and expelled but birth control and abortion are provided carte blanche.

Women can abandon children with no legal repercussions under safe haven laws but a child surviving a late term abortion is left to suffer and die without medical care.

Does no one see the problem here?


----------



## Dr Grump

elvis3577 said:


> 1.5 million per year in the USA last I checked.



You really need to follow the debate....


----------



## elvis

midcan5 said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is all murder a personal matter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've not once heard you protest the invasion of Iraq which killed many living feeling beings and not cells which are discarded monthly.
Click to expand...


nice dodge.


----------



## elvis

Dr Grump said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5 million per year in the USA last I checked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to follow the debate....
Click to expand...


You are correct.  I assumed without looking she meant abortion in general because I thought late term abortions (third term) were ruled illegal by the supreme court.  Is that not the case?


----------



## DamnYankee

elvis3577 said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame they are so routine, then, and abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How routine are they? Got any stats...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1.5 million per year in the USA last I checked.
Click to expand...




Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?


----------



## DamnYankee

Skull Pilot said:


> Abortion is one of those issues where commonsense loses out.
> 
> We have a president who wants to "just get along" and agree to disagree on abortion when he is in favor of letting minors obtain abortions without parental notification or consent. who disagrees with providing medical care for those fetuses that happen to survive late term abortion procedures thereby denying what all of us would call a living breathing child life saving medical care.
> 
> minors cannot get a tattoo, cannot vote etc and parents are more often than not held responsible for the misdeeds of their minor children but we have a government that favors handing out birth control pills to 8th graders and supports providing invasive, potentially dangerous surgical procedures to minors with absolutely no parental notification or consent all for the sake of abortion rights.
> 
> Kids can't even bring Advil to school for fear of being strip searched and expelled but birth control and abortion are provided carte blanche.
> 
> Women can abandon children with no legal repercussions under safe haven laws but a child surviving a late term abortion is left to suffer and die without medical care.
> 
> Does no one see the problem here?



Absolutely -- the biggest of which is the government. Let people, including parents and their children, in consultation with their own medical professionals handle their own problems/decisions.


----------



## Yukon

You should know by now my child that these people make up the numbers to suit their agenda. They are nothing more than outright liars.



ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?


----------



## jillian

DavidS said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And of those who are pro-choice, a huge chunk of them are pro-choice only in limited circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
Click to expand...


Third trimester abortions are rare and occur when a woman and her DOCTOR decide there's no other choice.

It's one of those fabricated issues that the religious right loves to rely on because of the visceral response to it....  it's mostly a non-issue.

Amniocentesis is usually performed sometime between the 15th and 18th week of a pregnancy...

so thanks for your "limit", but no thanks....

that is just one of the reasons why you need to get out of the way and leave the decision between a woman (and her significant other if she chooses), her doctor and her G-d...  

you know, like it is now....

regardless of the religious right's propaganda.


----------



## Yukon

jillian.......*BRAVO !!!!!*


----------



## Skull Pilot

Yukon said:


> jillian.......*BRAVO !!!!!*



geez Jillian you're so PC you won't even spell G O D.


----------



## jillian

Skull Pilot said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> jillian.......*BRAVO !!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geez Jillian you're so PC you won't even spell G O D.
Click to expand...


It's not PC...it's a religious prohibition.

Good showing ignorance, though.

Cheers.


----------



## Skull Pilot

jillian said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> jillian.......*BRAVO !!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geez Jillian you're so PC you won't even spell G O D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not PC...it's a religious prohibition.
> 
> Good showing ignorance, though.
> 
> Cheers.
Click to expand...


well since i do not believe in god, i can spell it all i want hell i won't even capitalize.


----------



## Yukon

Jillian is most definately an intelligent woman with a mind of her own. Rare these days in a society that has gone mad with political hypocracy by denouncing Muslims for controlling women yet want to control the reproductive capabilities of Christian women.
*
 BRAVO jillian BRAVO !!*


----------



## DamnYankee

ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?






Yukon said:


> You should know by now my child that these people make up the numbers to suit their agenda. They are nothing more than outright liars.




I seriously doubt that you're old enough to be my parent.... 

The point is: I don't generally need to use the word "liar". I only need to challenge the claim, and wait....


----------



## jillian

Skull Pilot said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> geez Jillian you're so PC you won't even spell G O D.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not PC...it's a religious prohibition.
> 
> Good showing ignorance, though.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well since i do not believe in god, i can spell it all i want hell i won't even capitalize.
Click to expand...


that's fine. i don't tell other people what to believe. but my grandmother would roll over in her grave if I wrote it out.


----------



## Yukon

Allbiz,

My son, are you too PC to call a "spade-a-spade" ?


----------



## Skull Pilot

Yukon said:


> Jillian is most definately an intelligent woman with a mind of her own. Rare these days in a society that has gone mad with political hypocracy by denouncing Muslims for controlling women yet want to control the reproductive capabilities of Christian women.
> *
> BRAVO jillian BRAVO !!*



So people who are not for no holds barred abortion rights are discriminating against christian women?

And wtf do the savage practices of muslims have to do with abortion laws in the usa?


----------



## Neser Boha

jillian said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And of those who are pro-choice, a huge chunk of them are pro-choice only in limited circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Third trimester abortions are rare and occur when a woman and her DOCTOR decide there's no other choice.
> 
> It's one of those fabricated issues that the religious right loves to rely on because of the visceral response to it....  it's mostly a non-issue.
> 
> Amniocentesis is usually performed sometime between the 15th and 18th week of a pregnancy...
> 
> so thanks for your "limit", but no thanks....
> 
> that is just one of the reasons why you need to get out of the way and leave the decision between a woman (and her significant other if she chooses), her doctor and her G-d...
> 
> you know, like it is now....
> 
> regardless of the religious right's propaganda.
Click to expand...


Agree totally...  

Just would like to add a bit of an acidic statement...

I am a woman and I take it as a personal offense and an insult that anyone should suggest that I don't have TOTAL and singular control over my body.  And to all those that suggest that they have a say in my bodily functions I say - FUCK YOU!


----------



## DavidS

Skull Pilot said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> jillian.......*BRAVO !!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geez Jillian you're so PC you won't even spell G O D.
Click to expand...


It is not PC to write "G-d." It is a Jewish tradition and custom to never spell out the full word. I switch back and forth between putting the - and putting an o. Sometimes I  lowercase the g. It's not His name, we're not allowed to say or spell his name - but it's what defines Him. We are human. He is, well... G-d.


----------



## Yukon

Skull Pilot said:


> So people who are not for no holds barred abortion rights are discriminating against christian women?
> 
> And wtf do the savage practices of muslims have to do with abortion laws in the usa?



Put on your thinking cap my child and study what I posted. Try to analyze it in detail. Perhaps you will understand the comments. People like yourself are against any form of abortion you want everyone to do as you do, to believe as you believe. I have never stated that I am pro-abortion or anti-abortion. What I have always claimed to be is PRO-CHOICE which equates to FREE CHOICE. 

If you want to live in a thocratic state than I suggest you move to the middle-east. Perhaps than you will be happy - women are treated as mere chatels, abortionists are stoned to death in public. homos are executed in public; an excellent atmosphere for religious fanatics.


----------



## elvis

ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> How routine are they? Got any stats...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5 million per year in the USA last I checked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?
Click to expand...


from a health book.  i was referring to abortions in general.  They don't keep stats I think means they don't document what term the pregnancy was in.


----------



## DiamondDave

Neser Boha said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third trimester abortions are rare and occur when a woman and her DOCTOR decide there's no other choice.
> 
> It's one of those fabricated issues that the religious right loves to rely on because of the visceral response to it....  it's mostly a non-issue.
> 
> Amniocentesis is usually performed sometime between the 15th and 18th week of a pregnancy...
> 
> so thanks for your "limit", but no thanks....
> 
> that is just one of the reasons why you need to get out of the way and leave the decision between a woman (and her significant other if she chooses), her doctor and her G-d...
> 
> you know, like it is now....
> 
> regardless of the religious right's propaganda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree totally...
> 
> Just would like to add a bit of an acidic statement...
> 
> I am a woman and I take it as a personal offense and an insult that anyone should suggest that I don't have TOTAL and singular control over my body.  And to all those that suggest that they have a say in my bodily functions I say - FUCK YOU!
Click to expand...


If it were only your body and your life.. I would agree with you... but the simple fact is that there is another body and life involved... and I only wish that that little life had the ability to tell you "FUCK YOU"


----------



## jillian

elvis3577 said:


> ALLBizFR0M925 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5 million per year in the USA last I checked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> from a health book.  i was referring to abortions in general.  They don't keep stats I think means they don't document what term the pregnancy was in.
Click to expand...


why would you assume that?


----------



## DiamondDave

DavidS said:


> Who said they should he murdered? I sure didn't. When you kill bacteria in your body, do you murder it?






DavidS said:


> An unborn human being is not a child. It is an unborn organism and actually, at some stages of pregnancy, bacteria is more complex than an unborn human being.



The difference is a bacteria will only ever be a bacteria.... the fetus/child will go beyond X number of cells and become a living, breathing, child.. it is a human life, just at an early stage of development


----------



## jillian

DiamondDave said:


> The difference is a bacteria will only ever be a bacteria.... the fetus/child will go beyond X number of cells and become a living, breathing, child.. it is a human life, just at an early stage of development



The problem DD is the issue of whether or not one should have an abortion isn't the issue. The actual issue is WHEN DOES *GOVERNMENT* HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL A PERSON'S BODY?

The RvW court was very specific about the balancing of interests.  It was a compromise decision that looked at pregnancy from minute one to week 41, acknowledged that life (and govt's interest) in it, exists on a continuum from pre-embryo to born child. Nothing unborn is a citizen with rights, therefore the "rights" of a zygote were not ever at issue. However, the governmental interest in protecting potential life was deemed to increase as the pregnancy progressed. Personally, I'd agree with that assessment.

And your arbitrary detrmination as to when it is a "child" should no more be imposed upon me, then anyone else could ever force you to support terminating a pregnancy.


----------



## DiamondDave

jillian said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is a bacteria will only ever be a bacteria.... the fetus/child will go beyond X number of cells and become a living, breathing, child.. it is a human life, just at an early stage of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem DD is the issue of whether or not one should have an abortion isn't the issue. The actual issue is WHEN DOES *GOVERNMENT* HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL A PERSON'S BODY?
> 
> The RvW court was very specific about the balancing of interests.  It was a compromise decision that looked at pregnancy from minute one to week 41, acknowledged that life (and govt's interest) in it, exists on a continuum from pre-embryo to born child. Nothing unborn is a citizen with rights, therefore the "rights" of a zygote were not ever at issue. However, the governmental interest in protecting potential life was deemed to increase as the pregnancy progressed. Personally, I'd agree with that assessment.
> 
> And your arbitrary detrmination as to when it is a "child" should no more be imposed upon me, then anyone else could ever force you to support terminating a pregnancy.
Click to expand...


When did government give you the right to terminate an innocent human life?

You can get into trouble for disturbing the 'habitat' of an endangered species on your property, and thrown in jail for killing one.... but you can merrily end a human life on a whim with an abortion 

Nothing unborn is a citizen... but it is a life... funny how you want a non-citizen terrorist suspect to have rights, but not an innocent unborn in the early stages of development

It is a life, whether you agree it is a 'child'.. it is a life with it's own unique DNA... it is not a part of your body that is comprised of your DNA alone


----------



## jillian

"government" ISN'T terminating a human life... the INDIVIDUAL choosing to terminate a pregnancy is terminating the pregnancy. No one is forcing her to.

Is anyone FORCING you to HAVE an abortion?

No?

Of course not. Because GOVERNMENT does not tell people what to do with their bodies except under the most limited of circumstances.

you use the word "life" like it has some talismanic meaning. We kill live things ALL the time.... we kill bacteria; we kill animals for food and because people choose to; we kill the "enemy" if there is a war... 

so the reliance on the term "life" is silly and not relevant to the discussion.

What is relevant to the discussion is that YOUR religious beliefs dictate that you believe it is a "PROTECTABLE" life from the moment of conception. My religion does not.

Given a choice between my own beliefs and the imposition of yours by way of legislation, thakns... but I'll take mine any day of the week.

Interestingly, I've never met anyone so wise that I thought their judgments should be substituted for my own... 

And the anti-govt crowd is the first one to yell that GOVERNMENT should tell me what to do with my uterus.

I'd say that's a overreaching and unconstitutional act by the government.

Luckily, the law says so too.... and hopefully one of the five who might endanger that right by virtue of a false means of constitutional constuction, will be replaced over the next four to eight years.

Have you ever wondered why the abortion issue is only politicized in the U.S., Italy and Ireland?

I have. And the answer is religious zealots.

Keep your religion off of my body.


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> It is a life, whether you agree it is a 'child'.. it is a life with it's own unique DNA... it is not a part of your body that is comprised of your DNA alone



As a woman, I also have a life, and I resent that you see my life as good for nothing but to incubate a non-sentient being until you decide I should be finished with doing so.

To be clear:  I have no problem with safe/sound limits on abortion, and we need to obtain a balance between the life of the child and the life of the mother.  A 4-week old fetus's life is NOT equivalent to the mother's life.  Furthermore, pregnancy itself is a dangerous process that exposes the mother to significant risk.  You don't have the right to force that process on any woman.


----------



## DiamondDave

Nice try... I did not say the government was terminating a life.. I asked "When did government give you the right to terminate an innocent human life?"


And again... a bacteria will only ever be a bacteria.. a bird will only be a bird.... an unborn human at the early stages of development will become an independent little human child

Again.. it is not about what you do with your uterus... You can stuff it with cottage cheese and paint the inside blue for all I care... this is about protecting an innocent life at the early stages of development

Funny.. YOU brought up religion.. I brought no religion into this whatsoever


----------



## jillian

DiamondDave said:


> Funny.. YOU brought up religion.. I brought no religion into this whatsoever



Do you think you have to?

Again...the emotionality is irrelevant... so you can say the words "innocent life" while clutching your clothes and wringing your hands til the end of time.

THE ONLY ISSUE IS WHAT ROLE DOES GOVERNMENT PLAY? And WHAT RIGHT DOES GOVERNMENT HAVE TO FORCE ME TO CARRY A CHILD?


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a life, whether you agree it is a 'child'.. it is a life with it's own unique DNA... it is not a part of your body that is comprised of your DNA alone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a woman, I also have a life, and I resent that you see my life as good for nothing but to incubate a non-sentient being until you decide I should be finished with doing so.
> 
> To be clear:  I have no problem with safe/sound limits on abortion, and we need to obtain a balance between the life of the child and the life of the mother.  A 4-week old fetus's life is NOT equivalent to the mother's life.  Furthermore, pregnancy itself is a dangerous process that exposes the mother to significant risk.  You don't have the right to force that process on any woman.
Click to expand...


Evacuation for your living environment is a more dangerous process with more risk...

I have a life, you have a life.. but because your life is separate from mine, you do not have a right to terminate mine (or any other innocent human life) on a whim

No innocent human life is any more valuable than any other.. no matter if you're a genius, or barely functioning on your own, or even if you cannot take care of yourself...

And nobody FORCED the pregnancy process on you... you willingly subjected yourself to that process the minute you decided to become a sperm receptacle.. consequences to actions


----------



## DiamondDave

jillian said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny.. YOU brought up religion.. I brought no religion into this whatsoever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think you have to?
> 
> Again...the emotionality is irrelevant... so you can say the words "innocent life" while clutching your clothes and wringing your hands til the end of time.
> 
> THE ONLY ISSUE IS WHAT ROLE DOES GOVERNMENT PLAY? And WHAT RIGHT DOES GOVERNMENT HAVE TO FORCE ME TO CARRY A CHILD?
Click to expand...


Again.. what right does government give you to terminate a human life?


----------



## DamnYankee

Yukon said:


> Allbiz,
> 
> My son, are you too PC to call a "spade-a-spade" ?




Absolutely not. Please note what I said.



> I don't generally need to use the word "liar". /
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emphasis on the word GENERALLY.
> 
> I prefer to allow the web to be spun first, and THEN trap. You have a problem with permitting the question to be answered?
> 
> Oh, and the last time I looked, I wasn't endowed with the equipment to be anyone's son, let alone yours....
Click to expand...


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> And nobody FORCED the pregnancy process on you... you willingly subjected yourself to that process the minute you decided to become a sperm receptacle.. consequences to actions



Cool.  I vote that all women start boycotting that process to give men like you a taste of the medicine you are demanding.


----------



## Yukon

How quaint to listen and read comments from the religious-right wing of the GOP. You are the same people who would refuse to give a single mother welfare cheques, you are the same people who will refuse people health care because they dont have insurance. You make me sick to my stomach. Abortion is legal and will remain so....none of the right-wing "gods" even attempted to make it illegal. Reagan, Bush-the-elder, Bush-junior...the list is endless.


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> And nobody FORCED the pregnancy process on you... you willingly subjected yourself to that process the minute you decided to become a sperm receptacle.. consequences to actions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.  I vote that all women start boycotting that process to give men like you a taste of the medicine you are demanding.
Click to expand...


Fine... it does take 2... you can call for any boycott you want for sex or whatever else

But if you subject yourself to the process, you inherently accept the risks of your actions and you got to live with the consequences for your actions...


----------



## DamnYankee

AllieBaba said:


> What a shame they are so routine, then, and abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats.





elvis3577 said:


> ALLBizFR0M925 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5 million per year in the USA last I checked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> from a health book.  i was referring to abortions in general.  They don't keep stats I think means they don't document what term the pregnancy was in.
Click to expand...



Well, see, the original statement was NOT about abortions in general. It was about LATE TERM abortions. So, it would be a good thing if we kept this particular part of the discussion on the same page, doncha think?


----------



## elvis

jillian said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALLBizFR0M925 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from a health book.  i was referring to abortions in general.  They don't keep stats I think means they don't document what term the pregnancy was in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> why would you assume that?
Click to expand...


allie said they don't keep stats about how late the pregnancy was.


----------



## elvis

ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame they are so routine, then, and abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALLBizFR0M925 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious.... If abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats, where did _you_ get them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> from a health book.  i was referring to abortions in general.  They don't keep stats I think means they don't document what term the pregnancy was in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, see, the original statement was NOT about abortions in general. It was about LATE TERM abortions. So, it would be a good thing if we kept this particular part of the discussion on the same page, doncha think?
Click to expand...

already been told that.


----------



## DamnYankee

elvis3577 said:


> ALLBizFR0M925 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame they are so routine, then, and abortion clinics don't keep track of the stats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> from a health book.  i was referring to abortions in general.  They don't keep stats I think means they don't document what term the pregnancy was in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, see, the original statement was NOT about abortions in general. It was about LATE TERM abortions. So, it would be a good thing if we kept this particular part of the discussion on the same page, doncha think?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> already been told that.
Click to expand...


Yeah, well.... I was out....


----------



## Neser Boha

DiamondDave said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Third trimester abortions are rare and occur when a woman and her DOCTOR decide there's no other choice.
> 
> It's one of those fabricated issues that the religious right loves to rely on because of the visceral response to it....  it's mostly a non-issue.
> 
> Amniocentesis is usually performed sometime between the 15th and 18th week of a pregnancy...
> 
> so thanks for your "limit", but no thanks....
> 
> that is just one of the reasons why you need to get out of the way and leave the decision between a woman (and her significant other if she chooses), her doctor and her G-d...
> 
> you know, like it is now....
> 
> regardless of the religious right's propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree totally...
> 
> Just would like to add a bit of an acidic statement...
> 
> I am a woman and I take it as a personal offense and an insult that anyone should suggest that I don't have TOTAL and singular control over my body.  And to all those that suggest that they have a say in my bodily functions I say - FUCK YOU!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If it were only your body and your life.. I would agree with you... but the simple fact is that there is another body and life involved... and I only wish that that little life had the ability to tell you "FUCK YOU"
Click to expand...


As long as IT is a part of my body, the government nor anyone else has no claim over it and no RIGHT to tell me what to do with it.  This is a a LEGAL issue and should be purely a legal issue. It's usually the religious freaks that mix up morality with legality by injecting emotions into it that have no place in a legal system.  Do you know what objectivity is?  It is something taught in college, maybe you should look into it.

Whether it is moral or right has nothing to do with it.  Also, as a man - you simply have no say in the matter.  You can just state your opinion as our legal system makes possible, but that's - unfortunately for you - it.  If you were a woman, what you'd do with your little zygote or fetus would be totally up to you... the legal system would only guarantee you the possibility to terminate the medical condition if you chose so.

There are lots of immoral actions that are not punishable by law nor should they be.  You control freaks need to lay the hell off.  


Does the fact that men are totally and utterly NOT in control when it comes to these issues give you the willies?  Ha ha ha, suck it up because you can't do SHIT about it, sweetheart.  As far as this issue goes, this is the woman's world.

Ta-ta!


----------



## DiamondDave

Neser Boha said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree totally...
> 
> Just would like to add a bit of an acidic statement...
> 
> I am a woman and I take it as a personal offense and an insult that anyone should suggest that I don't have TOTAL and singular control over my body.  And to all those that suggest that they have a say in my bodily functions I say - FUCK YOU!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it were only your body and your life.. I would agree with you... but the simple fact is that there is another body and life involved... and I only wish that that little life had the ability to tell you "FUCK YOU"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As long as IT is a part of my body, the government nor anyone else has no claim over it and no RIGHT to tell me what to do with it.  This is a a LEGAL issue and should be purely a legal issue. It's usually the religious freaks that mix up morality with legality by injecting emotions into it that have no place in a legal system.  Do you know what objectivity is?  It is something taught in college, maybe you should look into it.
> 
> Whether it is moral or right has nothing to do with it.  Also, as a man - you simply have no say in the matter.  You can just state your opinion as our legal system makes possible, but that's - unfortunately for you - it.  If you were a woman, what you'd do with your little zygote or fetus would be totally up to you... the legal system would only guarantee you the possibility to terminate the medical condition if you chose so.
> 
> There are lots of immoral actions that are not punishable by law nor should they be.  You control freaks need to lay the hell off.
> 
> 
> Does the fact that men are totally and utterly NOT in control when it comes to these issues give you the willies?  Ha ha ha, suck it up because you can't do SHIT about it, sweetheart.  As far as this issue goes, this is the woman's world.
> 
> Ta-ta!
Click to expand...


No.. it is not a part of your body... it is a separate life... it's own DNA signature separate from yours

Just as you don't have a right to terminate a child under your care in any other circumstance, even if that child is not one you want or you feel there is something wrong with the child

Again.. you don't want to deal with the risk and consequences of pregnancy, keep your legs closed

Like they say in the carnivals.. "You pay your money you take your chances"


----------



## elvis

DiamondDave said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it were only your body and your life.. I would agree with you... but the simple fact is that there is another body and life involved... and I only wish that that little life had the ability to tell you "FUCK YOU"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As long as IT is a part of my body, the government nor anyone else has no claim over it and no RIGHT to tell me what to do with it.  This is a a LEGAL issue and should be purely a legal issue. It's usually the religious freaks that mix up morality with legality by injecting emotions into it that have no place in a legal system.  Do you know what objectivity is?  It is something taught in college, maybe you should look into it.
> 
> Whether it is moral or right has nothing to do with it.  Also, as a man - you simply have no say in the matter.  You can just state your opinion as our legal system makes possible, but that's - unfortunately for you - it.  If you were a woman, what you'd do with your little zygote or fetus would be totally up to you... the legal system would only guarantee you the possibility to terminate the medical condition if you chose so.
> 
> There are lots of immoral actions that are not punishable by law nor should they be.  You control freaks need to lay the hell off.
> 
> 
> Does the fact that men are totally and utterly NOT in control when it comes to these issues give you the willies?  Ha ha ha, suck it up because you can't do SHIT about it, sweetheart.  As far as this issue goes, this is the woman's world.
> 
> Ta-ta!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.. it is not a part of your body... it is a separate life... it's own DNA signature separate from yours
> 
> Just as you don't have a right to terminate a child under your care in any other circumstance, even if that child is not one you want or you feel there is something wrong with the child
> 
> Again.. you don't want to deal with the risk and consequences of pregnancy, keep your legs closed
> 
> Like they say in the carnivals.. "You pay your money you take your chances"
Click to expand...


Doesn't even have to be part of her body.  Just ask Obama.


----------



## KittenKoder

Look at all the babysitters we have, babysitting Americans like everyone in the US are children now. Why not give the government control of all our choices. Sounds good to me.


----------



## Shogun

Hey Nesser.. by all means.. HAVE complete control of your body while making decisions on who to fuck and preventing unwanted pregnancy.  However, a fetus is genetically distinct from YOUR body and, thus, is NOT YOUR BODY.  You certainly DO have a choice here...  But, the choice happens BEFORE the fucking begins.  

I've seen this pendulum swinging back for a while now.  It's time for a compromise on Abortion.  You will regret throwing this into a batch of "purely legal issue", Nes..  I promise you'll change that line after abortion gets banned and is no longer a LEGAL OPTION.  If abortion defenders put as much time, effort and energy into PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies as they do DEFENDING the killing of feti then this would be a non-issue.  You've got a myriad of birth control options and the individual prerogative to use them.  Do it and stop making excuses for killing human genetic individuals..


----------



## KittenKoder

Shogun said:


> Hey Nesser.. by all means.. HAVE complete control of your body while making decisions on who to fuck and preventing unwanted pregnancy.  However, a fetus is genetically distinct from YOUR body and, thus, is NOT YOUR BODY.  You certainly DO have a choice here...  But, the choice happens BEFORE the fucking begins.
> 
> I've seen this pendulum swinging back for a while now.  It's time for a compromise on Abortion.  You will regret throwing this into a batch of "purely legal issue", Nes..  I promise you'll change that line after abortion gets banned and is no longer a LEGAL OPTION.  If abortion defenders put as much time, effort and energy into PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies as they do DEFENDING the killing of feti then this would be a non-issue.  You've got a myriad of birth control options and the individual prerogative to use them.  Do it and stop making excuses for killing human genetic individuals..



Here's a good compromise on everything: Let people decide for themselves what's good for them.


----------



## Yurt

KittenKoder said:


> [
> Here's a good compromise on everything: Let people decide for themselves what's good for them.



male and female....the two that created the fetus?


----------



## KittenKoder

Yurt said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> Here's a good compromise on everything: Let people decide for themselves what's good for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> male and female....the two that created the fetus?
Click to expand...


At this point in time, why the hell should I care? If the man wants to carry it let him, if the woman wants it out, let her get it out. Right or wrong, let her take the responsibility.


----------



## DiamondDave

And if the parent wishes to kill a  newborn (or any other child/life under their care)... right or wrong... let then take the responsibility?


----------



## KittenKoder

DiamondDave said:


> And if the parent wishes to kill a  newborn (or any other child/life under their care)... right or wrong... let then take the responsibility?



Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.


----------



## DiamondDave

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if the parent wishes to kill a  newborn (or any other child/life under their care)... right or wrong... let then take the responsibility?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
Click to expand...


Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)

Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference

The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development


----------



## Shogun

KittenKoder said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Nesser.. by all means.. HAVE complete control of your body while making decisions on who to fuck and preventing unwanted pregnancy.  However, a fetus is genetically distinct from YOUR body and, thus, is NOT YOUR BODY.  You certainly DO have a choice here...  But, the choice happens BEFORE the fucking begins.
> 
> I've seen this pendulum swinging back for a while now.  It's time for a compromise on Abortion.  You will regret throwing this into a batch of "purely legal issue", Nes..  I promise you'll change that line after abortion gets banned and is no longer a LEGAL OPTION.  If abortion defenders put as much time, effort and energy into PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies as they do DEFENDING the killing of feti then this would be a non-issue.  You've got a myriad of birth control options and the individual prerogative to use them.  Do it and stop making excuses for killing human genetic individuals..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a good compromise on everything: Let people decide for themselves what's good for them.
Click to expand...


oh, you mean like drowning newborns in water tubs because the stress of dealing with crying babies is just too much to handle?  OOOOK!


----------



## Shogun

KittenKoder said:


> Yurt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> Here's a good compromise on everything: Let people decide for themselves what's good for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> male and female....the two that created the fetus?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At this point in time, why the hell should I care? If the man wants to carry it let him, if the woman wants it out, let her get it out. Right or wrong, let her take the responsibility.
Click to expand...


sorry.  no.  Enjoy the backs swinging pendulum.


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> But if you subject yourself to the process, you inherently accept the risks of your actions and you got to live with the consequences for your actions...



If you're playing along, and you want the fetus, you can have it implanted in your cranial space since you clearly aren't doing anything with it.

What you don't get is that for men, the risk of pregnancy is nil.  Women are the ones who get to carry and clean up your little messes.


----------



## KittenKoder

DiamondDave said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if the parent wishes to kill a  newborn (or any other child/life under their care)... right or wrong... let then take the responsibility?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
Click to expand...


Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.


----------



## Shogun

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if the parent wishes to kill a  newborn (or any other child/life under their care)... right or wrong... let then take the responsibility?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
Click to expand...


your are making a caveat to your "leave individuals alone and let them make their own choice" ALREADY?!?!  you DONT SAY! 


Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility?  Is that too tough?  Too much to consider?  Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus.  enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility.  When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.


----------



## KittenKoder

Shogun said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yurt said:
> 
> 
> 
> male and female....the two that created the fetus?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At this point in time, why the hell should I care? If the man wants to carry it let him, if the woman wants it out, let her get it out. Right or wrong, let her take the responsibility.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sorry.  no.  Enjoy the backs swinging pendulum.
Click to expand...


Oh, so you are all for being babysat, you are therefore a child.


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference


There isn't a big difference.  A fetus at 12 weeks is more like a rat than it as a full-term infant.  It is completely non-sentient at that point (a rat has more cognitive functions) and cannot function without the mother as it's host.

An infant at 24 weeks has higher brain functions and can even survive outside the womb.

So, put safe & sane limits on it, by all means. I would not by any means oppose limits on abortion after the first trimester.  But stop pretending that an early fetus is a baby.  It isn't...YET.


----------



## Shogun

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
Click to expand...


You are simply wrong.  The individual genetics of a fetus ARE human.  Genes don't fucking magically change after the fetus drops out of a vagina.


----------



## elvis

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
Click to expand...


It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.


----------



## catzmeow

Shogun said:


> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility?  Is that too tough?  Too much to consider?  Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus.  enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility.  When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.



You care so much about the fetus, you fucking carry it.


----------



## Shogun

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility?  Is that too tough?  Too much to consider?  Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus.  enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility.  When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You care so much about the fetus, you fucking carry it.
Click to expand...


fuck you.  I think I'll go ahead and vote to ban abortion, instead!  In this age of post-90s education and a plethora of fucking birth control methods AND your inherent preogative regarding whom to fuck OR NOT you have no excuses for killing a human being out of irresponsibility.  I suggest you discover how tempting a compromise is.


----------



## jillian

elvis3577 said:


> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.



Again, wrong premise.

I have a heartbeat too. Who has greater rights? Me or an unborn potential human?

This isn't about visceral response. It's about when is governmental action appropriate.


----------



## elvis

Shogun said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility?  Is that too tough?  Too much to consider?  Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus.  enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility.  When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You care so much about the fetus, you fucking carry it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> fuck you.  I think I'll go ahead and vote to ban abortion, instead!  In this age of post-90s education and a plethora of fucking birth control methods AND your inherent preogative regarding whom to fuck OR NOT you have no excuses for killing a human being out of irresponsibility.  I suggest you discover how tempting a compromise is.
Click to expand...


Is such a vote even being discussed?


----------



## KittenKoder

Shogun said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are simply wrong.  The individual genetics of a fetus ARE human.  Genes don't fucking magically change after the fetus drops out of a vagina.
Click to expand...


... and ... a hair has human DNA, do you keep all those alive?


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> But if you subject yourself to the process, you inherently accept the risks of your actions and you got to live with the consequences for your actions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you're playing along, and you want the fetus, you can have it implanted in your cranial space since you clearly aren't doing anything with it.
> 
> What you don't get is that for men, the risk of pregnancy is nil.  Women are the ones who get to carry and clean up your little messes.
Click to expand...


Tell that to my child support checks I have to give in huge amounts even though I have my children 50% of the time.. and to the love and care I give to my children every fucking day... and to the non-existent free time in my life because I raise my kids as best I can

Yes.. we do not carry the baby for 9 months... but there is no less risk involved in the action for a man, than a woman... it takes 2 to tango, and the responsibility is there for both after the action is done


----------



## KittenKoder

elvis3577 said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.
Click to expand...


No, that's to see if it's STILL alive, want to nitpick? A heartbeat only demonstrates that the cells are still getting energy, which is transported by the blood. If the life form cannot make it's own blood to transport the energy it is not alive.


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't a big difference.  A fetus at 12 weeks is more like a rat than it as a full-term infant.  It is completely non-sentient at that point (a rat has more cognitive functions) and cannot function without the mother as it's host.
> 
> An infant at 24 weeks has higher brain functions and can even survive outside the womb.
> 
> So, put safe & sane limits on it, by all means. I would not by any means oppose limits on abortion after the first trimester.  But stop pretending that an early fetus is a baby.  It isn't...YET.
Click to expand...


A rat will always be a rat.. a human fetes even at a lesser developed statge will not remain that way, it will continue developing into a full grown human...

nice try


----------



## DiamondDave

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
Click to expand...


No.. it is human.. it certainly is not marsupial


----------



## catzmeow

Shogun said:


> fuck you.  I think I'll go ahead and vote to ban abortion, instead!  In this age of post-90s education and a plethora of fucking birth control methods AND your inherent preogative regarding whom to fuck OR NOT you have no excuses for killing a human being out of irresponsibility.  I suggest you discover how tempting a compromise is.



I love how you require OTHER PEOPLE to do the dirty work to carry your principles for you.  Kind of like the Republicans who are fine with other people being tortured as long as they get to feel safe from terrorists.

Your principles extend about as far as my vagina, and no futher.  They demand no sacrifice from YOU.  Some principles.


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility?  Is that too tough?  Too much to consider?  Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus.  enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility.  When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You care so much about the fetus, you fucking carry it.
Click to expand...



If I could, I would... in a heartbeat


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> A rat will always be a rat.. a human fetes even at a lesser developed statge will not remain that way, it will continue developing into a full grown human...
> 
> nice try



Except that 1/3 of all fetuses will be natually expelled from the womb before 12 weeks.  That's the NORM, apart from abortion.  So, apparently, the human body disagrees with you.  Not all fetuses will evolve into human beings.  A third are rejected by natural processes.  I see no difference between the body's existing mechanism and abortion during that same time period.


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> If I could, I would... in a heartbeat



Then maybe your time would be better spent finding a way for YOU to live YOUR principles, and carry rejected fetuses.


----------



## DiamondDave

KittenKoder said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are simply wrong.  The individual genetics of a fetus ARE human.  Genes don't fucking magically change after the fetus drops out of a vagina.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ... and ... a hair has human DNA, do you keep all those alive?
Click to expand...



Again.. a hair will not become a living, breathing, eating, shitting, sentient, person.. a fetus will


----------



## KittenKoder

DiamondDave said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.. it is human.. it certainly is not marsupial
Click to expand...


It's a lump of cells, a parasite that requires another life to maintain it's own existence. It cannot think, it cannot learn, it is not truly alive anymore than any other parasite is.


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> A rat will always be a rat.. a human fetes even at a lesser developed statge will not remain that way, it will continue developing into a full grown human...
> 
> nice try
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that 1/3 of all fetuses will be natually expelled from the womb before 12 weeks.  That's the NORM, apart from abortion.  So, apparently, the human body disagrees with you.  Not all fetuses will evolve into human beings.  A third are rejected by natural processes.  I see no difference between the body's existing mechanism and abortion during that same time period.
Click to expand...


And people die of natural causes every day.. it does not mean we have the right to speed up the process or make it more efficient


----------



## elvis

jillian said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, wrong premise.
> 
> I have a heartbeat too. Who has greater rights? Me or an unborn potential human?
> 
> This isn't about visceral response. It's about when is governmental action appropriate.
Click to expand...


greater rights?  No. Equal.


----------



## DiamondDave

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.. it is human.. it certainly is not marsupial
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a lump of cells, a parasite that requires another life to maintain it's own existence. It cannot think, it cannot learn, it is not truly alive anymore than any other parasite is.
Click to expand...


But it WILL... it will not remain merely a lump of useless cells for the full term of it's existence


----------



## Shogun

KittenKoder said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, that's to see if it's STILL alive, want to nitpick? A heartbeat only demonstrates that the cells are still getting energy, which is transported by the blood. If the life form cannot make it's own blood to transport the energy it is not alive.
Click to expand...


actually, a heartbeat indicates a functioning central nervous system and brain activity.  seriously, did you even take a bio class?


----------



## DiamondDave

DiamondDave said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> A rat will always be a rat.. a human fetes even at a lesser developed statge will not remain that way, it will continue developing into a full grown human...
> 
> nice try
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that 1/3 of all fetuses will be natually expelled from the womb before 12 weeks.  That's the NORM, apart from abortion.  So, apparently, the human body disagrees with you.  Not all fetuses will evolve into human beings.  A third are rejected by natural processes.  I see no difference between the body's existing mechanism and abortion during that same time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And people die of natural causes every day.. it does not mean we have the right to speed up the process or make it more efficient
Click to expand...


See.. I guess i figure you have a 33% chance of dying either from cancer or heart disease... and I have no need for you and no want of you in my life... so I guess I have the right to arbitrarily terminate you as well

I see no difference between any type of mechanism that terminates your life...

Is that OK with you?


----------



## KittenKoder

DiamondDave said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.. it is human.. it certainly is not marsupial
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a lump of cells, a parasite that requires another life to maintain it's own existence. It cannot think, it cannot learn, it is not truly alive anymore than any other parasite is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But it WILL... it will not remain merely a lump of useless cells for the full term of it's existence
Click to expand...


Nuclear bombs will blow up ... gas will explode and burn ... there are a lot of "wills" in life, if you try to predict all of them and live based on what "will" happen, then you are not living.


----------



## Shogun

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> fuck you.  I think I'll go ahead and vote to ban abortion, instead!  In this age of post-90s education and a plethora of fucking birth control methods AND your inherent preogative regarding whom to fuck OR NOT you have no excuses for killing a human being out of irresponsibility.  I suggest you discover how tempting a compromise is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love how you require OTHER PEOPLE to do the dirty work to carry your principles for you.  Kind of like the Republicans who are fine with other people being tortured as long as they get to feel safe from terrorists.
> 
> Your principles extend about as far as my vagina, and no futher.  They demand no sacrifice from YOU.  Some principles.
Click to expand...


Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer?  I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?  

You probably shouldn't try and tangent into torture, yo... that one will blow up in your face.

Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again.  Don't want my opinion in your vagina?  Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.


----------



## DiamondDave

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a lump of cells, a parasite that requires another life to maintain it's own existence. It cannot think, it cannot learn, it is not truly alive anymore than any other parasite is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it WILL... it will not remain merely a lump of useless cells for the full term of it's existence
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nuclear bombs will blow up ... gas will explode and burn ... there are a lot of "wills" in life, if you try to predict all of them and live based on what "will" happen, then you are not living.
Click to expand...


Nukes will not blow up unless we interact or have actions to cause detonation

Gas itself will not explode or burn without an outside influence

But then again.. neither of those things will ever become fully functioning human lives during any part of their existence.. no matter how much you try

It's simple really, kitten... you protect human life... all innocent human life... whether it is reliant on you or not

And a fetus is indeed a human life at an early developmental stage


----------



## elvis

KittenKoder said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, that's to see if it's STILL alive, want to nitpick? A heartbeat only demonstrates that the cells are still getting energy, which is transported by the blood. If the life form cannot make it's own blood to transport the energy it is not alive.
Click to expand...


Who's nitpicking now?


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> Again.. a hair will not become a living, breathing, eating, shitting, sentient, person.. a fetus will



A hair contains all of the dna components needed to create a living, breathing, eating, shitting, sentient person.  So, cherish it while yours lasts.  HAIR IS SACRED!!!


----------



## catzmeow

Shogun said:


> Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer?  I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?



Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.



> Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again.  Don't want my opinion in your vagina?  Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.



Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.  

EDIT:

Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again.. a hair will not become a living, breathing, eating, shitting, sentient, person.. a fetus will
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A hair contains all of the dna components needed to create a living, breathing, eating, shitting, sentient person.  So, cherish it while yours lasts.  HAIR IS SACRED!!!
Click to expand...


But it will not become a living, breathing, shitting, bullshitting person unless that DNA is put into an egg cell.. you know.. the kind of egg cell, fertilized, that will start growing and developing into a human life.. known as a fetus


----------



## elvis

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer?  I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again.  Don't want my opinion in your vagina?  Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.
Click to expand...

evil sperm?  you calling manifold a rapist?  Otherwise, the woman has a choice in the matter.


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer?  I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again.  Don't want my opinion in your vagina?  Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.
Click to expand...


The sperm don't get there on it's own... you got a part in that decision too... all you got to do is say no and close your legs

Risk... EXACTLY... as in chancing the possible consequences for your actions... and sorry, a possible consequence of sex (even with protection) is indeed the creation of another life.... you don't want that possibility, don't do the action that can  lead you there


----------



## KittenKoder

elvis3577 said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's to see if it's STILL alive, want to nitpick? A heartbeat only demonstrates that the cells are still getting energy, which is transported by the blood. If the life form cannot make it's own blood to transport the energy it is not alive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who's nitpicking now?
Click to expand...


As I said, if you want to nitpick, I can to. It's not alive until there is brain function, period, and then it's not viable until it no longer needs the host to survive. It is a parasite until such time. Saying no after brain function, sure, then it falls into the realm of defenseless life. Before then, the matter is moot. The woman who those cells are part of can determine whether to keep them attached or not. Unless you want to be rid of all plastic and cosmetic surgery, it is nothing different than that.


----------



## Shogun

*Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.*

Not at all.  You insist that I am, somehow, hiding behind laws to maintain my standard as if we don't do that every day that a cop is on the job.  You are going to have to try harder that this.


*Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.  *

OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.  PRE-ZIPPER decision, remember?
*
EDIT:

Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.

*





riiiiight.. because only virgins are pro-life?



You know I enjoy shit talking like the rest of them but if this is all you have left in your quiver then....

It's called responsibility.  I've yet to sire a fucking baby because i'm EXTREMELY choosy and cautious about what I stick my dick into.  It's the product of growing up in the 90s.  And, if I can do it then so can you.


----------



## KittenKoder

Shogun said:


> *Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.*
> 
> Not at all.  You insist that I am, somehow, hiding behind laws to maintain my standard as if we don't do that every day that a cop is on the job.  You are going to have to try harder that this.
> 
> 
> *Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.  *
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.  PRE-ZIPPER decision, remember?
> *
> EDIT:
> 
> Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> riiiiight.. because only virgins are pro-life?
> 
> 
> 
> You know I enjoy shit talking like the rest of them but if this is all you have left in your quiver then....
> 
> It's called responsibility.  I've yet to sire a fucking baby because i'm EXTREMELY choosy and cautious about what I stick my dick into.  It's the product of growing up in the 90s.  And, if I can do it then so can you.



Well, if you are that picky then why the hell do you care what others do?


----------



## DiamondDave

KittenKoder said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.*
> 
> Not at all.  You insist that I am, somehow, hiding behind laws to maintain my standard as if we don't do that every day that a cop is on the job.  You are going to have to try harder that this.
> 
> 
> *Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.  *
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.  PRE-ZIPPER decision, remember?
> *
> EDIT:
> 
> Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> riiiiight.. because only virgins are pro-life?
> 
> 
> 
> You know I enjoy shit talking like the rest of them but if this is all you have left in your quiver then....
> 
> It's called responsibility.  I've yet to sire a fucking baby because i'm EXTREMELY choosy and cautious about what I stick my dick into.  It's the product of growing up in the 90s.  And, if I can do it then so can you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you are that picky then why the hell do you care what others do?
Click to expand...


Just as we care when other people take the lives of other humans

Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good... but when there is a human life involved, even at an early developmental stage, it is not simply a part of your body... it is the parts of 2 persons brought together to form a completely new human life.. it is it's own separate life, not identical to you.. it is as innocent as innocent can be, and it is reliant on the parent for existence.. and those kids remain that way for a long time in and out of the womb... but because they cannot take care of themselves, does not make them any less of a human... just as a newborn is no less of a human than a teenager, which is no less of a human than a middle aged person, which is no less of a person than an elderly person... as stated, it's all human life at different stages


----------



## KittenKoder

DiamondDave said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.*
> 
> Not at all.  You insist that I am, somehow, hiding behind laws to maintain my standard as if we don't do that every day that a cop is on the job.  You are going to have to try harder that this.
> 
> 
> *Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.  *
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.  PRE-ZIPPER decision, remember?
> *
> EDIT:
> 
> Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> riiiiight.. because only virgins are pro-life?
> 
> 
> 
> You know I enjoy shit talking like the rest of them but if this is all you have left in your quiver then....
> 
> It's called responsibility.  I've yet to sire a fucking baby because i'm EXTREMELY choosy and cautious about what I stick my dick into.  It's the product of growing up in the 90s.  And, if I can do it then so can you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you are that picky then why the hell do you care what others do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just as we care when other people take the lives of other humans
> 
> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good... but when there is a human life involved, even at an early developmental stage, it is not simply a part of your body... it is the parts of 2 persons brought together to form a completely new human life.. it is it's own separate life, not identical to you.. it is as innocent as innocent can be, and it is reliant on the parent for existence.. and those kids remain that way for a long time in and out of the womb... but because they cannot take care of themselves, does not make them any less of a human... just as a newborn is no less of a human than a teenager, which is no less of a human than a middle aged person, which is no less of a person than an elderly person... as stated, it's all human life at different stages
Click to expand...


Really? So far all I see is people pushing their morals onto others without regard to their needs.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Article 15 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a first trimester and life of the mother in danger guy.
> 
> Making it illegal and returning to back alley coat hanger job days doesn't sound like a good policy to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I guess it's fortunate that that isn't what's being suggested, and also that coathanger abortions are an urban legend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't recall anything being suggested ...  it was an opinion poll and I provided my opinion.
> 
> What are you suggesting?
Click to expand...


I'm suggesting that your opinion on this is based on bullshit and smokescreens that have been thrown up to obscure the real issue.


----------



## Shogun

KittenKoder said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Your reasoning mechanism appears to be broken.*
> 
> Not at all.  You insist that I am, somehow, hiding behind laws to maintain my standard as if we don't do that every day that a cop is on the job.  You are going to have to try harder that this.
> 
> 
> *Stop putting your evil sperm into vaginas.  *
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.  PRE-ZIPPER decision, remember?
> *
> EDIT:
> 
> Oh, sorry, my bad.  Confused you with manifold.  Clearly, pregnancy isn't a problem that you're contributing to.  I'm sure that you, as a virgin, would never take the risk of having sex with a woman outside of the bonds of marriage.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> riiiiight.. because only virgins are pro-life?
> 
> 
> 
> You know I enjoy shit talking like the rest of them but if this is all you have left in your quiver then....
> 
> It's called responsibility.  I've yet to sire a fucking baby because i'm EXTREMELY choosy and cautious about what I stick my dick into.  It's the product of growing up in the 90s.  And, if I can do it then so can you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you are that picky then why the hell do you care what others do?
Click to expand...


Because dead human beings are still being killed by irresponsible people.  do you care if I murder someone as long as it's not you?  ok then.


----------



## DiamondDave

KittenKoder said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you are that picky then why the hell do you care what others do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just as we care when other people take the lives of other humans
> 
> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good... but when there is a human life involved, even at an early developmental stage, it is not simply a part of your body... it is the parts of 2 persons brought together to form a completely new human life.. it is it's own separate life, not identical to you.. it is as innocent as innocent can be, and it is reliant on the parent for existence.. and those kids remain that way for a long time in and out of the womb... but because they cannot take care of themselves, does not make them any less of a human... just as a newborn is no less of a human than a teenager, which is no less of a human than a middle aged person, which is no less of a person than an elderly person... as stated, it's all human life at different stages
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really? So far all I see is people pushing their morals onto others without regard to their needs.
Click to expand...


Needs??
Really... Who takes care of your needs?? That responsibility falls on you.. Whether it be your need to put food n your belly, a roof on your head, or whatever other need you can think of...
Now if you wish to ask for help and others are willing to help on their own volition, all well and good.. I think being charitable is great.... though being charitable does not mean that others take over your responsibility, just that people are voluntarily helping out of the goodness of their own heart

And we have morals as a society.. one of which that is usually pretty generally accepted is not taking the lives of others... which is what those who are "pro-life" are trying to do... protecting an innocent life, no matter what developmental stage it is in


----------



## Neser Boha

DiamondDave said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it were only your body and your life.. I would agree with you... but the simple fact is that there is another body and life involved... and I only wish that that little life had the ability to tell you "FUCK YOU"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As long as IT is a part of my body, the government nor anyone else has no claim over it and no RIGHT to tell me what to do with it.  This is a a LEGAL issue and should be purely a legal issue. It's usually the religious freaks that mix up morality with legality by injecting emotions into it that have no place in a legal system.  Do you know what objectivity is?  It is something taught in college, maybe you should look into it.
> 
> Whether it is moral or right has nothing to do with it.  Also, as a man - you simply have no say in the matter.  You can just state your opinion as our legal system makes possible, but that's - unfortunately for you - it.  If you were a woman, what you'd do with your little zygote or fetus would be totally up to you... the legal system would only guarantee you the possibility to terminate the medical condition if you chose so.
> 
> There are lots of immoral actions that are not punishable by law nor should they be.  You control freaks need to lay the hell off.
> 
> 
> Does the fact that men are totally and utterly NOT in control when it comes to these issues give you the willies?  Ha ha ha, suck it up because you can't do SHIT about it, sweetheart.  As far as this issue goes, this is the woman's world.
> 
> Ta-ta!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.. it is not a part of your body... it is a separate life... it's own DNA signature separate from yours
> 
> Just as you don't have a right to terminate a child under your care in any other circumstance, even if that child is not one you want or you feel there is something wrong with the child
> 
> Again.. you don't want to deal with the risk and consequences of pregnancy, keep your legs closed
> 
> Like they say in the carnivals.. "You pay your money you take your chances"
Click to expand...


I really don't care what your opinion is when it comes to my body... so I'll fuck and if I should get pregnant and decide that I am just not ready to have it ... I'll have the damn abortion and you can't do crap about it.  And if the likes of you make it illegal, I'll get in my car, drive over to Canada and get it done over there.  Understand?  Women will have abortions whether you like it or not... by making it illegal, you're making criminals out of them and you're endangering their lives by the practice going underground into the black market.  

So there... your opinion is worth NOTHING when it comes to my distinctive lump of DNA.

The above situation is fictional as I have actually no intention of ever having an abortion as I could not live with it and actually am planning to have a baby in a couple of years. That's who I am and that is *purely my choice*- uninfluenced by anyone else's opinion.  But - I'm a strong supporter of others' right to choose and compared to you - I don't judge.  The pure arrogance of those are willing to impose their little fucking opinions on lives of others by making choice illegal pisses me the hell off...* Judging little pricks - that's exactly what you are...*

Yeah, I'm quite passionate about others' imposing their opinions on others... VERY FUCKING PASSIONATE.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Neser Boha said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third trimester abortions are rare and occur when a woman and her DOCTOR decide there's no other choice.
> 
> It's one of those fabricated issues that the religious right loves to rely on because of the visceral response to it....  it's mostly a non-issue.
> 
> Amniocentesis is usually performed sometime between the 15th and 18th week of a pregnancy...
> 
> so thanks for your "limit", but no thanks....
> 
> that is just one of the reasons why you need to get out of the way and leave the decision between a woman (and her significant other if she chooses), her doctor and her G-d...
> 
> you know, like it is now....
> 
> regardless of the religious right's propaganda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree totally...
> 
> Just would like to add a bit of an acidic statement...
> 
> I am a woman and I take it as a personal offense and an insult that anyone should suggest that I don't have TOTAL and singular control over my body.  And to all those that suggest that they have a say in my bodily functions I say - FUCK YOU!
Click to expand...


You think you have total and singular control over your body?  Really?  So you choose to have messy, bloody, cramp-filled periods once a month, do you?  You have regular mammograms and PAP smears simply for the sheer fun of it, because obviously you won't choose to allow breast or cervical cancer into your body, over which you have total control?

You're either fucking delusional, or too stupid to breathe without a diagram.  Begone, fool.


----------



## Newby

jillian said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is a bacteria will only ever be a bacteria.... the fetus/child will go beyond X number of cells and become a living, breathing, child.. it is a human life, just at an early stage of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem DD is the issue of whether or not one should have an abortion isn't the issue. The actual issue is WHEN DOES *GOVERNMENT* HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL A PERSON'S BODY?
> 
> The RvW court was very specific about the balancing of interests.  It was a compromise decision that looked at pregnancy from minute one to week 41, *acknowledged that life (and govt's interest) in it, exists on a continuum from pre-embryo to born child*. *Nothing unborn is a citizen with rights*, therefore the "rights" of a zygote were not ever at issue. However, the governmental interest in protecting potential life was deemed to increase as the pregnancy progressed. Personally, I'd agree with that assessment.
> 
> And your arbitrary detrmination as to when it is a "child" should no more be imposed upon me, then anyone else could ever force you to support terminating a pregnancy.
Click to expand...


Really?  Then why can the government choose to lay 2 counts of murder charges against someone who murders a prenant woman?


----------



## Shogun

Neser Boha said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as IT is a part of my body, the government nor anyone else has no claim over it and no RIGHT to tell me what to do with it.  This is a a LEGAL issue and should be purely a legal issue. It's usually the religious freaks that mix up morality with legality by injecting emotions into it that have no place in a legal system.  Do you know what objectivity is?  It is something taught in college, maybe you should look into it.
> 
> Whether it is moral or right has nothing to do with it.  Also, as a man - you simply have no say in the matter.  You can just state your opinion as our legal system makes possible, but that's - unfortunately for you - it.  If you were a woman, what you'd do with your little zygote or fetus would be totally up to you... the legal system would only guarantee you the possibility to terminate the medical condition if you chose so.
> 
> There are lots of immoral actions that are not punishable by law nor should they be.  You control freaks need to lay the hell off.
> 
> 
> Does the fact that men are totally and utterly NOT in control when it comes to these issues give you the willies?  Ha ha ha, suck it up because you can't do SHIT about it, sweetheart.  As far as this issue goes, this is the woman's world.
> 
> Ta-ta!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.. it is not a part of your body... it is a separate life... it's own DNA signature separate from yours
> 
> Just as you don't have a right to terminate a child under your care in any other circumstance, even if that child is not one you want or you feel there is something wrong with the child
> 
> Again.. you don't want to deal with the risk and consequences of pregnancy, keep your legs closed
> 
> Like they say in the carnivals.. "You pay your money you take your chances"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I really don't care what your opinion is when it comes to my body... so I'll fuck and if I should get pregnant and decide that I am just not ready to have it ... I'll have the damn abortion and you can't do crap about it.  And if the likes of you make it illegal, I'll get in my car, drive over to Canada and get it done over there.  Understand?  Women will have abortions whether you like it or not... by making it illegal, you're making criminals out of them and you're endangering their lives by the practice going underground into the black market.
> 
> So there... your opinion is worth NOTHING when it comes to my distinctive lump of DNA.
> 
> The above situation is fictional as I have actually no intention of ever having an abortion as I could not live with it and actually am planning to have a baby in a couple of years. That's who I am and that is *purely my choice*- uninfluenced by anyone else's opinion.  But - I'm a strong supporter of others' right to choose and compared to you - I don't judge.  The pure arrogance of those are willing to impose their little fucking opinions on lives of others by making choice illegal pisses me the hell off...* Judging little pricks - that's exactly what you are...*
> 
> Yeah, I'm quite passionate about others' imposing their opinions on others... VERY FUCKING PASSIONATE.
Click to expand...


Indeed.  NOW you have that option.  Perhaps you should consider what exactly the OP is saying about how that WILL change.


----------



## catzmeow

elvis3577 said:


> evil sperm?  you calling manifold a rapist?  Otherwise, the woman has a choice in the matter.



Actually, the implication was that Shogun, thanks to his charming personality and core principles, doesn't get a lot of opportunities to PUT HIS SEMEN into any vaginas.

God, I hate explaining humor, it always kills it.


----------



## Neser Boha

Cecilie1200 said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Third trimester abortions are rare and occur when a woman and her DOCTOR decide there's no other choice.
> 
> It's one of those fabricated issues that the religious right loves to rely on because of the visceral response to it....  it's mostly a non-issue.
> 
> Amniocentesis is usually performed sometime between the 15th and 18th week of a pregnancy...
> 
> so thanks for your "limit", but no thanks....
> 
> that is just one of the reasons why you need to get out of the way and leave the decision between a woman (and her significant other if she chooses), her doctor and her G-d...
> 
> you know, like it is now....
> 
> regardless of the religious right's propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree totally...
> 
> Just would like to add a bit of an acidic statement...
> 
> I am a woman and I take it as a personal offense and an insult that anyone should suggest that I don't have TOTAL and singular control over my body.  And to all those that suggest that they have a say in my bodily functions I say - FUCK YOU!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You think you have total and singular control over your body?  Really?  So you choose to have messy, bloody, cramp-filled periods once a month, do you?  You have regular mammograms and PAP smears simply for the sheer fun of it, because obviously you won't choose to allow breast or cervical cancer into your body, over which you have total control?
> 
> You're either fucking delusional, or too stupid to breathe without a diagram.  Begone, fool.
Click to expand...


I have a choice and control over whether or not I have an abortion, sweetie.  Go change the tampon.. it's leaking...


----------



## elvis

catzmeow said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> evil sperm?  you calling manifold a rapist?  Otherwise, the woman has a choice in the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the implication was that Shogun, thanks to his charming personality and core principles, doesn't get a lot of opportunities to PUT HIS SEMEN into any vaginas.
> 
> God, I hate explaining humor, it always kills it.
Click to expand...


I understand, but the edit threw me off.


----------



## elvis

Newby said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is a bacteria will only ever be a bacteria.... the fetus/child will go beyond X number of cells and become a living, breathing, child.. it is a human life, just at an early stage of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem DD is the issue of whether or not one should have an abortion isn't the issue. The actual issue is WHEN DOES *GOVERNMENT* HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL A PERSON'S BODY?
> 
> The RvW court was very specific about the balancing of interests.  It was a compromise decision that looked at pregnancy from minute one to week 41, *acknowledged that life (and govt's interest) in it, exists on a continuum from pre-embryo to born child*. *Nothing unborn is a citizen with rights*, therefore the "rights" of a zygote were not ever at issue. However, the governmental interest in protecting potential life was deemed to increase as the pregnancy progressed. Personally, I'd agree with that assessment.
> 
> And your arbitrary detrmination as to when it is a "child" should no more be imposed upon me, then anyone else could ever force you to support terminating a pregnancy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?  Then why can the government choose to lay 2 counts of murder charges against someone who murders a prenant woman?
Click to expand...


Thats a good question.


----------



## catzmeow

Shogun said:


> I've yet to sire a fucking baby because i'm EXTREMELY choosy and cautious about what I stick my dick into.



So, that's the explanation they give for 32-year-old virgins these days?


----------



## Newby

jillian said:


> "government" ISN'T terminating a human life... the INDIVIDUAL choosing to terminate a pregnancy is terminating the pregnancy. No one is forcing her to.
> 
> Is anyone FORCING you to HAVE an abortion?
> 
> No?
> 
> Of course not. Because GOVERNMENT does not tell people what to do with their bodies except under the most limited of circumstances.
> 
> you use the word "life" like it has some talismanic meaning. We kill live things ALL the time.... we kill bacteria; we kill animals for food and because people choose to; we kill the "enemy" if there is a war...
> 
> so the reliance on the term "life" is silly and not relevant to the discussion.
> 
> What is relevant to the discussion is that YOUR religious beliefs dictate that you believe it is a "PROTECTABLE" life from the moment of conception. My religion does not.
> 
> Given a choice between my own beliefs and the imposition of yours by way of legislation, thakns... but I'll take mine any day of the week.
> 
> Interestingly, I've never met anyone so wise that I thought their judgments should be substituted for my own...
> 
> And the anti-govt crowd is the first one to yell that GOVERNMENT should tell me what to do with my uterus.
> 
> I'd say that's a overreaching and unconstitutional act by the government.
> 
> Luckily, the law says so too.... and hopefully one of the five who might endanger that right by virtue of a false means of constitutional constuction, will be replaced over the next four to eight years.
> 
> Have you ever wondered why the abortion issue is only politicized in the U.S., Italy and Ireland?
> 
> I have. And the answer is religious zealots.
> 
> Keep your religion off of my body.



  Damn convenient to tie it to religion isn't it?   It has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with moral right and wrong.  Our society has decided that murder is morally wrong, why aren't you tying that to religion as well and renouncing laws that prohibit murder?  Why is it that when it's convenient for you (i.e. you don't agree with it) you can arbitrarily  tie some moral right or wrong to religion and then use that as your weapon to fight against it?    What makes what you determine as morally right or wrong any better than anyone else?  Are you seriously trying to say that it depends on what the morals are founded on?  So if someone's moral are founded in their religion then their morals are somehow less significant than someone who founds their morals from some other origin?  What gives you the right to decide whose morals are better?


----------



## DiamondDave

Neser Boha said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as IT is a part of my body, the government nor anyone else has no claim over it and no RIGHT to tell me what to do with it.  This is a a LEGAL issue and should be purely a legal issue. It's usually the religious freaks that mix up morality with legality by injecting emotions into it that have no place in a legal system.  Do you know what objectivity is?  It is something taught in college, maybe you should look into it.
> 
> Whether it is moral or right has nothing to do with it.  Also, as a man - you simply have no say in the matter.  You can just state your opinion as our legal system makes possible, but that's - unfortunately for you - it.  If you were a woman, what you'd do with your little zygote or fetus would be totally up to you... the legal system would only guarantee you the possibility to terminate the medical condition if you chose so.
> 
> There are lots of immoral actions that are not punishable by law nor should they be.  You control freaks need to lay the hell off.
> 
> 
> Does the fact that men are totally and utterly NOT in control when it comes to these issues give you the willies?  Ha ha ha, suck it up because you can't do SHIT about it, sweetheart.  As far as this issue goes, this is the woman's world.
> 
> Ta-ta!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.. it is not a part of your body... it is a separate life... it's own DNA signature separate from yours
> 
> Just as you don't have a right to terminate a child under your care in any other circumstance, even if that child is not one you want or you feel there is something wrong with the child
> 
> Again.. you don't want to deal with the risk and consequences of pregnancy, keep your legs closed
> 
> Like they say in the carnivals.. "You pay your money you take your chances"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I really don't care what your opinion is when it comes to my body... so I'll fuck and if I should get pregnant and decide that I am just not ready to have it ... I'll have the damn abortion and you can't do crap about it.  And if the likes of you make it illegal, I'll get in my car, drive over to Canada and get it done over there.  Understand?  Women will have abortions whether you like it or not... by making it illegal, you're making criminals out of them and you're endangering their lives by the practice going underground into the black market.
> 
> So there... your opinion is worth NOTHING when it comes to my distinctive lump of DNA.
> 
> The above situation is fictional as I have actually no intention of ever having an abortion as I could not live with it and actually am planning to have a baby in a couple of years. That's who I am and that is *purely my choice*- uninfluenced by anyone else's opinion.  But - I'm a strong supporter of others' right to choose and compared to you - I don't judge.  The pure arrogance of those are willing to impose their little fucking opinions on lives of others by making choice illegal pisses me the hell off...* Judging little pricks - that's exactly what you are...*
> 
> Yeah, I'm quite passionate about others' imposing their opinions on others... VERY FUCKING PASSIONATE.
Click to expand...


And I am quite passionate about protecting innocent life.. whether it be an old person, young person, child, unborn child, etc... and that takes precedent over any personal whim you may have... you see, you simply do not have the right to exercise your choice if it infringes on the rights of others.. and the prime right is the right to life... and yes, a fetus, unborn child, etc is a human life at an early developmental stage

You have a legal choice... whether or not to participate in the action in the first place.... and that is a personal choice that only effects your life... but when there is another human life involved, the equation changes... every human life has the same rights as any other

And yes.. you can drive to canada or use an ice cream scoop or whatever else... just as a murderer can choose to put a meat cleaver in your head or shoot you in the face or strangle you... but we still have our laws and society that makes it wrong in every attempt to take a life of someone else... just as you think an unborn child/fetus is disposable, is right on par with a murderer that thinks you are disposable

I don't judge you for having sex or not having sex or whatever.. that is up to you.. but as in everything else in life, there are consequences to your actions... good or bad (however you see them).... and if you choose to partake in the action that can lead to the creation of another life, you best be ready for all that comes with that


----------



## Shogun

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've yet to sire a fucking baby because i'm EXTREMELY choosy and cautious about what I stick my dick into.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, that's the explanation they give for 32-year-old virgins these days?
Click to expand...


HA!  looks like 51% of our population are all virgins then, eh?


----------



## catzmeow

Shogun said:


> HA!  looks like 51% of our population are all virgins then, eh?



Except that 80% support some type of abortion remaining legal.  Learn to read a fucking study.


----------



## Newby

Shogun said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if the parent wishes to kill a  newborn (or any other child/life under their care)... right or wrong... let then take the responsibility?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your are making a caveat to your "leave individuals alone and let them make their own choice" ALREADY?!?!  you DONT SAY!
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility?  Is that too tough?  Too much to consider?  Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus.  enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility.  When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.
Click to expand...



Responbility is a dirty word.  Whenever you look at all the issues that the left loves to push on everyone else, it always has something to do with taking care of people who have not been responsible for themselves in some way or another.  It's a way to get their grubby little hands on everyone's money while trying to pretend that they're only doing what's 'morally' right for 'every' citizen.  There's no choice involved when it comes to forcing others to follow what they think is morally right, they have no problem with using legislation to force others into following their morality whatsoever.  That's why they have to intertwine abortion and religion so zealously, so they have a 'good' reason to not allow your morals to disrupt their agenda.  Their morals are a completely different story, however.  It's funny how when you talk about the left and its agenda, hypocrasy is always the word that comes to mind first.


----------



## Shogun

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> HA!  looks like 51% of our population are all virgins then, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that 80% support some type of abortion remaining legal.  Learn to read a fucking study.
Click to expand...


the pendulum still swings, bitch.  And that source wasn't a study; it was a poll.  learn about fucking research methods.


----------



## Neser Boha

Shogun said:


> Indeed.  NOW you have that option.  Perhaps you should consider what exactly the OP is saying about how that WILL change.



What is it saying exactly that will change???

I'm quoting directly:

"With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?"

5/7-10/09
Pro-Choice: 42    Pro-Life: 51   Mixed/Neither: 2  Don't Know What Terms Mean: 4  Unsure: 1


The margin or error is 3%... that means that it is possible that the difference is much less, considering the 7% that are either unsure, mixed, or whatever... that's all of 10% and possibly larger change...  I wouldn't call this poll decisive.

But besides that... the poll also says:

"Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?"

5/7-10/09
Legal Under Any: 22%  Legal Only Under Certain: * 53*	   Illegal In All: 23    Unsure: 2	  


I don't see much of a change coming... personally.  But even if it is.. thank g-d, god, or allah that I live in Europe.


----------



## catzmeow

DiamondDave said:


> Tell that to my child support checks I have to give in huge amounts even though I have my children 50% of the time.. and to the love and care I give to my children every fucking day... and to the non-existent free time in my life because I raise my kids as best I can
> 
> Yes.. we do not carry the baby for 9 months... but there is no less risk involved in the action for a man, than a woman... it takes 2 to tango, and the responsibility is there for both after the action is done



Dude, cry me a fucking river, I'm a single mom with 3 kids who pays for EVERYTHING, and has my daughter 100% of the time and my son 50% of the time.

It still doesn't compare with carrying a child for 9 months INSIDE OF YOU.

You have no clue.  You're just looking for a way to control what women do.


----------



## catzmeow

Shogun said:


> the pendulum still swings, bitch.  And that source wasn't a study; it was a poll.  learn about fucking research methods.



You remain incorrect.  80% of the people surveyed suport abortion remaining legal, even though 51% of them classify themselves as pro-life.

I suspect that they fall into the same category as DavidS, Article 15, and myself.  We want abortion in the first trimester to remain legal, but for abortions after that point to be illegal.

Way to alienate your ideological allies, dude.


----------



## DiamondDave

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to my child support checks I have to give in huge amounts even though I have my children 50% of the time.. and to the love and care I give to my children every fucking day... and to the non-existent free time in my life because I raise my kids as best I can
> 
> Yes.. we do not carry the baby for 9 months... but there is no less risk involved in the action for a man, than a woman... it takes 2 to tango, and the responsibility is there for both after the action is done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, cry me a fucking river, I'm a single mom with 3 kids who pays for EVERYTHING, and has my daughter 100% of the time and my son 50% of the time.
> 
> It still doesn't compare with carrying a child for 9 months INSIDE OF YOU.
> 
> You have no clue.  You're just looking for a way to control what women do.
Click to expand...


And I WISH i had my children 100% of the time... 

No.... it's not about controlling what women do.. you can screw your brains out... you can roll around in pig shit.. you can stuff your vag with turkey gizzards for all I care... but you protect human life, and a developing human is indeed a life

And would I have had kids if I COULD have given birth in place of my ex..?? You bet your sweet ass I would have

You're just looking for a way to conveniently eliminate consequences for actions.. even if that involves terminating a developing human... well sorry, actions DO have consequences.. you don't want the consequences, don't do the action that brings them about


----------



## Shogun

Neser Boha said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed.  NOW you have that option.  Perhaps you should consider what exactly the OP is saying about how that WILL change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is it saying exactly that will change???
> 
> I'm quoting directly:
> 
> "With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?"
> 
> 5/7-10/09
> Pro-Choice: 42    Pro-Life: 51   Mixed/Neither: 2  Don't Know What Terms Mean: 4  Unsure: 1
> 
> 
> The margin or error is 3%... that means that it is possible that the difference is much less, considering the 7% that are either unsure, mixed, or whatever... that's all of 10% and possibly larger change...  I wouldn't call this poll decisive.
> 
> But besides that... the poll also says:
> 
> "Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?"
> 
> 5/7-10/09
> Legal Under Any: 22%  Legal Only Under Certain: * 53*	   Illegal In All: 23    Unsure: 2
> 
> 
> I don't see much of a change coming... personally.  But even if it is.. thank g-d, god, or allah that I live in Europe.
Click to expand...


Look at the trends in each poll.  You are not gaining ground.. Indeed, many cultural changes happen without a fanfare to prepare you.  That is, after all, the same result that is still resonating 30 years after RvW, yes?

And Euro can do what it wants to do.  Here in the US the correlation between female choice and killing babies is being unraveled.  Watch and enjoy.


----------



## Shogun

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to my child support checks I have to give in huge amounts even though I have my children 50% of the time.. and to the love and care I give to my children every fucking day... and to the non-existent free time in my life because I raise my kids as best I can
> 
> Yes.. we do not carry the baby for 9 months... but there is no less risk involved in the action for a man, than a woman... it takes 2 to tango, and the responsibility is there for both after the action is done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, cry me a fucking river, I'm a single mom with 3 kids who pays for EVERYTHING, and has my daughter 100% of the time and my son 50% of the time.
> 
> It still doesn't compare with carrying a child for 9 months INSIDE OF YOU.
> 
> You have no clue.  You're just looking for a way to control what women do.
Click to expand...



no more than executing Aileen Wuornos was "just trying to control women".  Say it again, "CARRYING A *CHILD* FOR 9 MONTHS INSIDE OF YOU....  Freudian slip?


----------



## catzmeow

You can talk to me about carrying and delivering children, and the responsibility that entails, when you've actually fucking done it, Shogun.

I've done it twice, and miscarried once.  And I know what the risks are.  I was hospitalized with my second child and had my tubes tied so I would not get pregnant.

Guess what?  Even with taking that precaution AND condoms, I still had a pregnancy scare.  I'm fairly certain that you, from your mightly pulpit, have not taken the precautions I have to prevent pregnancy, or had an unplanned pregnancy and carried it to term and raised the child).

So, fuck off.

You sit back and judge women whose circumstances you don't know for doing something you wouldn't do, if you could.


----------



## Shogun

catzmeow said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> the pendulum still swings, bitch.  And that source wasn't a study; it was a poll.  learn about fucking research methods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You remain incorrect.  80% of the people surveyed suport abortion remaining legal, even though 51% of them classify themselves as pro-life.
> 
> I suspect that they fall into the same category as DavidS, Article 15, and myself.  We want abortion in the first trimester to remain legal, but for abortions after that point to be illegal.
> 
> Way to alienate your ideological allies, dude.
Click to expand...


First off, the link shows multiple POLLS.  None of which are static in preserving your 80% number.

Second, as I stated above, look at the trending for each poll.. you are not gaining anything.  Adding the stat from the "in some cases" column doesn't support your opinion since we are all familiar with the "life of the mother" ruse.

I'm not interested in "ideological allies".  If you ever would pay attention you'd know better than to say some dumb shit like that.  launching into some silly fucking "oh you must be a virgin" tangent after pouncing on the idea of a man voicing his opinion on this subject, as if testicles invalidate such, pretty much makes the very idea of "ideological allies" a total farce anyway.  

Now, go find a compromise or risk losing the pot.  your choice.  pun intended.


----------



## Shogun

catzmeow said:


> You can talk to me about carrying and delivering children, and the responsibility that entails, when you've actually fucking done it, Shogun.
> 
> I've done it twice, and miscarried once.  And I know what the risks are.  I was hospitalized with my second child and had my tubes tied so I would not get pregnant.
> 
> Guess what?  Even with taking that precaution AND condoms, I still had a pregnancy scare.  I'm fairly certain that you, from your mightly pulpit, have not taken the precautions I have to prevent pregnancy, or had an unplanned pregnancy and carried it to term and raised the child).
> 
> So, fuck off.
> 
> You sit back and judge women whose circumstances you don't know for doing something you wouldn't do, if you could.



And, likewise, you can tell me all about responsibility when you ACT like it, bitch.  I'm not asking for your personal fucking diary here.  You are not the first person to face a risky fucking pregnancy.  Believe it when i say, I don't care how many fucking firecrackers you have set off THERE ALWAYS REMAINS A CHANCE that when you choose to shoot fireworks you might get your fucking finger blown off.

and, indeed, I take all the precautions that growing up in a culture of AIDS prompts.  I don't really give a fuck if you think that life revolves around your personal experience.  A lot of people are not out getting pregnant because they use prevention or BETTER FUCKING JUDGEMENT BEFORE THEIR SECONDS OF PLEASURE.  Don't shit on my lawn just because you put more value in busting a nut than the human potential that may result thereof.  

so, YOU fuck off.  No one lit the fucking catmeow bat signal calling you into this goddamn thread anyway.  You want to freely give your opinion and rail on others for doing the same?  Fine.  But don't act like someone shit in your cheerios when they don't roll over the first time you insist they are a virgin or just want to control women.


Indeed, I judge other assorted murderers too.


----------



## Yukon

The Republican Party (Conservative) are desperate for votes. If they thought for one minute that running on a platform that included making abortion ILLEGAL they would do so in a heart beat. What the hypocrit GOP does is tell their faithful followers that they are against abortion knowing full well that there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop abortion.

The days when men could control women are over. Go back to your caves GOP people.


----------



## Shogun

Do I strike you as someone who supports the fucking GOP?

go back to your cave and rethink your stereotypes.


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State."   Edward Abbey
> 
> If those opposed to abortion supported child care and nutritional service for all children I could take them serious.
> The act of sex wastes life, destroys the potential for life. Quit purposeless sex if you are serious about life.
> If your only argument is a few cells become life those same cells die so potential has no meaning.
> Animals are conscious beings and we kill and eat them daily. Some kill them for sport. So life is only important if it is my species life?
> Each month the opportunity for life presents itself for a woman and yet they often prevent life from forming. If you carry anti pro-choice arguments to their extreme you have to allow me mine. This is true for men as well. Give life as often as you can or don't tell others what they should do.
> By potential I mean we die, so again if I follow the extreme argument of the anti pro group, just as we are born we die so is death ok as it is where we end up anyway. Suicide anyone.
> 4000 living, breathing, sentient beings die daily and we argue abortion.
> No one is killing innocent children they are just doing the same things everyone does when they prevent life from coming to fruition.
> 50% of fertilized eggs perish, God is screwing up here.
> Ever look in a microscope at your semen. Lots of life there. Stop beating off.
> In Genesis 38 we read that Onan "spilled his seed upon the ground," an act that so displeased the Lord that He struck him dead.
> Let's support education and preventative measures and stop the BS that surrounds abortion.
> Let's help those children who make it through but have so little.
> And if the constitution/law mattered to you you would not care about abortion as it is legal. Right?
> 
> 
> Boston Review &mdash; Judith Jarvis Thomson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion was made legal by JUDGES, which is wrong in a democratic society.
> 
> The majority has ALWAYS been against it. Which is why this issue won't die down. We never voted to make murder legal so rich white college girls could sleep around.
Click to expand...


Wrong. The USSC decision had to do with a woman's *right to choose *what happens to her own body (her own property), and it was therefore a Constitutionally correct decision. It wasn't a carte blanche approval of the abortion procedure.


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> In other words, because they don't give a shit about the baby.
> 
> I don't give a shit who you are or where you were. I worked with addicts and women and I've been to abortion clinics, where they were performing abortions on women who were obviously very close to due, and another time on (my client) who WASN'T EVEN FLIPPING PREGNANT. They told her AFTER the "abortion" that she had already miscarried.
> 
> But they took her fucking $600 all the same, you better believe it.



There are horror stories related to any situation. I seriously doubt that kind of thing goes on regularly. That said, if a woman does miscarry, she *should* have a D&C (which IS the same procedure as an abortion). Otherwise, she risks serious infection from the residue.


----------



## MaggieMae

catzmeow said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."
> 
> But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."
> 
> The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what?  So what.  NO matter how careful people are, accidents can happen.  I had a pregnancy scare with my boyfriend last year.  We'd been dating for about 6 months, and I missed a period.
> 
> Fortunately, I wasn't pregnant, but in that week, I thought about whether or not I could have a baby. At this point in my life, I couldn't.  I'm 43, with two kids, and not married.  I cannot afford the expense, the time off work, and I don't want to take time away from my kids to raise another baby.
> 
> I know for a fact that I'd have aborted.
> 
> And you know what?  That's well within my rights.  I'm more than an egg-incubator.  A fetus at 4 weeks is not a human infant.  They are not at all the same.  Sure that fetus contains the POTENTIAL to become a human infant, but it's not there.  It's a tiny cluster of cells.
> 
> I miscarried when I was 26.  I caught the baby in my hand in the bathroom, after hours of agony.  I was 12 weeks pregnant.
> 
> I've delivered 2 healthy full term babies.
> 
> They are not remotely the same.
> 
> If anyone doesn't give a crap about babies, it's GOD.  1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.  Most of the fetuses are too damaged or malformed to survive.  Most women who miscarry do so before they are even aware that they are pregnant.
> 
> Beyond that, if God cares so much, why does he allow millions of children - every single year - to starve to death?
> 
> Being pro-abortion during the first trimester is not the same as being pro-abortion for a late term abortion.
> 
> And, I get tired of your inflammatory, judgemental rhetoric, Allie.
> 
> You're a self-righteous jerk.   I'm tired of the fanatics controlling this discussion, as if they have a right to.
> 
> If you would never have an abortion, well-done you.  You don't get the right to make that decision for someone else.  Nor are you entitled to judge women who choose differently.
Click to expand...


Good answers, Cat. And I can empathize with your two situations. I too miscarried (into the toilet). Lots and lots of blood because I was hemorrhaging. The whole bathroom looked like a scene from Saw. Then after 2 healthy children, by then adolescents, I thought I was pregnant again (oops, not by my husband ), and just the pure agony over the decision was enough to postpone my period for a full three months. When I finally saw an OBGYN, he said it's very common for a woman in her late 30's or early 40's to start missing periods, as the ovaries begin to shrink. So I wasn't pregnant after all. Needless to say, it was PARTY TIME!!

Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and your point?  you think anyone really wants to stop a multi million dollar business?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The libs certainly don't. Planned Parenthood is their mealticket.
Click to expand...


You certainly don't show a lot of sympathy, seeing as you "work with" addicts, homeless, etc. If you have a job, or even volunteer, at a social worker's level, it seems to me you would need to provide your "clients" with *all* the options, including the *MANY* services of Planned Parenthood which is NOT solely frequented by "libs."


----------



## MaggieMae

Hillbilly said:


> Does anyone ever think about how selfish it is to destroy something that someone else is working so hard to get. There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.
> 
> Abortion is no different than when the government decided another group weren't really people and therefore couldn't vote, i.e. the blacks.
> 
> A baby is not a part of a woman's body and she has no jurisdiction over it.



There is no shortage of babies, toddlers, and other young children *waiting* for adoption either. The process has too much red tape and effectually strangles the process. I think if I ever had the decision to make again, and did not want the child or could not care for it myself, I would advertise privately as a surrogate mother and let a lawyer handle the details.


----------



## MaggieMae

KittenKoder said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that Obama has "legalized" stem cell research Im certain that the rate of abortion will increase once research centre start paying women for aborted fetal tissue. Im sure in some of the upscale ghetto's of DC the women will line up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need that stem cell research, so they can grow a brain for you so you can learn more about stem cell research.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer?  I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?
> 
> You probably shouldn't try and tangent into torture, yo... that one will blow up in your face.
> 
> Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again.  Don't want my opinion in your vagina?  Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.



Most abortions happen in the first trimester. If you want all those people not to have abortions, put a sign out and say you'll take care of the baby. 
Before you scream "personal choice" and "close your legs" - save the rant. I deal with how it happens in real life, not some warped Utopian ideal that your moral high-ground vacuous, mind-numbing brain thinks the world should work. Start dealing with reality, then start giving practical solutions. We can all stand on our high horse. You do that a lot, with this and the Israel issues....


----------



## Terry

I think the number is far greater than the 51 percent and it's because the so called PRO CHOICE movement hurt their cause. When a government agency backs and supports any doctor or clinic to make it very easy to have an abortion its no wonder why American has changed!

All to often the excuse for the progressives is that a young girl is raped by her dad blah blah blah. Those cases are very low percentage wise.

When our Gov. made laws to make it easier to just get an abortion instead of taking the pill, or re-vamp our adoption laws, to give that option more agressively to woman then there is a problem!

Lets face it the me generation (have it now, cannot wait) doesn't want to be bothered with the hassle of taking a pill, they find it easier to take their chances and just get the abortions, and clinics and our Gov. promote that shit.

If a woman wants an abortion then fine, but to promote abortions and shit that has been done is OVER the FUCKING LINE.


----------



## Anguille

Hillbilly said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.
> 
> 
> 
> So go out and adopt one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I phrased that ambiguously by accident. Let me rephrase. There is no shortage of people waiting to adopt children.
> 
> My personal opinion on whether I want to adopt a child is not germane to this discussion.
Click to expand...

 First of all, I've never heard a hillbilly use the expression "not germane". Thouigh admittedly I don't often have occasion to converse with hillbillies, so what do I know.

Second, I know you worded that badly. I still think you should adopt, figuratively speaking, a person who want to adopt a child and convince them that if they truly love children they will be willing to adopt and love a less than perfect one.  Because they all are less than perfect, you know, even the ones who live with their genetic parents.


----------



## Anguille

DavidS said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Arabs in Israel, you mean. Palestine doesn't exist.
> 
> And no, they should all just be sterilized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about the fact that it is projected that in 30 years there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not if I can help it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, the birth rate of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are that of the Arabs in Israel. *We *are finally getting back at them for doing what they did to us 80 years ago: Illegally populating their land. We have half a million people there now - who are each having around 7 children. Within 20 years from now, the Jewish population of the West Bank could reach up to 3 million people. Within 50 years from now, there could be up to 10 million Jews. All the while, the fertility rate among Arab-Israeli women is steadily decreasing and the illegal Arab immigrants who are living in Gaza and the West Bank have terrible health care and live shorter, less productive lives than Jews do.
> 
> By the time I am old enough to be a great grandfather, hopefully the Arabs will have been kicked out of Israeli territory and there will be only Jews and Christians living there.
Click to expand...

 
I thought you were an American? Are you an Israeli?

By the time you are a grand father, you better hope_ nobody_ is having excess children.


----------



## Anguille

DavidS said:


> Hillbilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do your research on long-term psychological effects of adopted children. It's not as sunshine and rainbows as you think it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, we should just kill them all instead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really are stupid, aren't you?
> 
> "I had a friend this, I had a friend that." Overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to the whole process. Abandonment, depression, self esteem... many are loners. Again, do your research.
Click to expand...

There are a few adopted people in my extended family. They are the well adjusted ones. The messed up ones are the ones with the genuine Scandinavian genes.


----------



## Anguille

Yukon said:


> Jillian is most definately an intelligent woman with a mind of her own. Rare these days in a society that has gone mad with political hypocracy by denouncing Muslims for controlling women yet want to control the reproductive capabilities of Christian women.
> 
> *BRAVO jillian BRAVO !!*


  Somebody's in lurve ...


----------



## Anguille

jillian said:


> you use the word "life" like it has some talismanic meaning. We kill live things ALL the time.... we kill bacteria; we kill animals for food and because people choose to; we kill the "enemy" if there is a war...
> 
> so the reliance on the term "life" is silly and not relevant to the discussion.


 
Can't be said more plainly than that.


----------



## Anguille

DiamondDave said:


> Again.. it is not about what you do with your uterus... You can stuff it with cottage cheese and paint the inside blue for all I care... this is about protecting an innocent life at the early stages of development


 



So why does innocent life at any other stage of deveopment not arrouse your compasion?


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> And nobody FORCED the pregnancy process on you... you willingly subjected yourself to that process the minute you decided to become a sperm receptacle.. consequences to actions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. I vote that all women start boycotting that process to give men like you a taste of the medicine you are demanding.
Click to expand...

 LOL!  Then only rapists would be fathers.


----------



## Anguille

elvis3577 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> from a health book. i was referring to abortions in general. They don't keep stats I think means they don't document what term the pregnancy was in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why would you assume that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> allie said they don't keep stats about how late the pregnancy was.
Click to expand...

 Do you believe everything Allie says?


----------



## Anguille

DiamondDave said:


> Just as you don't have a right to terminate a child under your care in any other circumstance, even if that child is not one you want or you feel there is something wrong with the child


 
Wrong.


----------



## Anguille

Shogun said:


> Hey Nesser.. by all means.. HAVE complete control of your body while making decisions on who to fuck and preventing unwanted pregnancy. However, a fetus is genetically distinct from YOUR body and, thus, is NOT YOUR BODY. You certainly DO have a choice here... But, the choice happens BEFORE the fucking begins.
> 
> I've seen this pendulum swinging back for a while now. It's time for a compromise on Abortion. You will regret throwing this into a batch of "purely legal issue", Nes.. I promise you'll change that line after abortion gets banned and is no longer a LEGAL OPTION. If abortion defenders put as much time, effort and energy into PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies as they do DEFENDING the killing of feti then this would be a non-issue. You've got a myriad of birth control options and the individual prerogative to use them. Do it and stop making excuses for killing human genetic individuals..


 
I wish I could get you pregnant. You'd be singing a different tune.


----------



## Anguille

DiamondDave said:


> A rat will always be a rat.. a human fetes even at a lesser developed statge will not remain that way, *it will continue developing into a full grown human...*
> 
> nice try


 Actually many don't. Some abortions occur naturallly. It's called miscarriage.


----------



## Valerie

Anguille said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> And nobody FORCED the pregnancy process on you... you willingly subjected yourself to that process the minute you decided to become a sperm receptacle.. consequences to actions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. I vote that all women start boycotting that process to give men like you a taste of the medicine you are demanding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL!  Then only rapists would be fathers.
Click to expand...


I would also submit that taking away the legal abortion option would potentially put more women in that position of being raped.


----------



## Anguille

Shogun said:


> Don't want my opinion in your vagina? Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.


 
You've got issues, dude!


----------



## Anguille

Valerie said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. I vote that all women start boycotting that process to give men like you a taste of the medicine you are demanding.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! Then only rapists would be fathers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would also submit that taking away the legal abortion option would potentially put more women in that position of being raped.
Click to expand...

 Possibly.

IMO, forcing a woman to bear a child is a form of rape in itself.


----------



## Valerie

Article 15 said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And of those who are pro-choice, a huge chunk of them are pro-choice only in limited circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am only pro-choice during the first trimester or very early second trimester. I'd say about 15 weeks is the limit.
> 
> Third trimester abortions or partial abortion is outrageous and disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a first trimester and life of the mother in danger guy.
> 
> Making it illegal and returning to back alley coat hanger job days doesn't sound like a good policy to me.
Click to expand...


I'm with you.  It is also important to note that abortion rates have actually decreased since Roe v Wade made it legal.


----------



## Anguille

DiamondDave said:


> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good...


 


Shogun said:


> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.


 
Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?


----------



## jillian

MaggieMae said:


> Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.



I think that's probably true. I understand the number used to be something like 80% of anti-choice activists were male.

It's a control thing... the religious right hasn't been able to stand it since the pill was invented.

And the proof of that? The same people who fight re-productive choice don't want birth control made readily available...... or the morning after pill... 

and they preach "abstinence only"... which doesn't work. and is the sex version of fire and brimstone.

Then the harlots are supposed to take "responsibility' for their choice while the dads skip town and don't pay child support... 

leaving single moms as the largest single group on welfare.

but the people who fight against your right to control what you do with your body also  don't want to pay for welfare either.... or for job training... or anything else that would make the lives of these women easier.

because it's all about exacting pennance for their transgressions.


----------



## Anguille

Newby said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newborn = already born. It's not a parasitic life at that point and someone else can take it. Next attempt to twist the discussion. This is about fetuses and lumps of cell tissue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> your are making a caveat to your "leave individuals alone and let them make their own choice" ALREADY?!?! you DONT SAY!
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility? Is that too tough? Too much to consider? Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus. enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility. When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Responbility is a dirty word. Whenever you look at all the issues that the left loves to push on everyone else, it always has something to do with taking care of people who have not been responsible for themselves in some way or another. It's a way to get their grubby little hands on everyone's money while trying to pretend that they're only doing what's 'morally' right for 'every' citizen. There's no choice involved when it comes to forcing others to follow what they think is morally right, they have no problem with using legislation to force others into following their morality whatsoever. That's why they have to intertwine abortion and religion so zealously, so they have a 'good' reason to not allow your morals to disrupt their agenda. Their morals are a completely different story, however. It's funny how when you talk about the left and its agenda, hypocrasy is always the word that comes to mind first.
Click to expand...

 Shogun, does it not give you pause that someone like Newby agrees with you?


----------



## Anguille

DiamondDave said:


> And would I have had kids if I COULD have given birth in place of my ex..?? You bet your sweet ass I would have


 
That's entirely academic. 

I bet my sweet ass you wouldn't.


----------



## WiseOldMan

jillian said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's probably true. I understand the number used to be something like 80% of anti-choice activists were male.
> 
> It's a control thing... the religious right hasn't been able to stand it since the pill was invented.
> 
> And the proof of that? The same people who fight re-productive choice don't want birth control made readily available...... or the morning after pill...
> 
> and they preach "abstinence only"... which doesn't work. and is the sex version of fire and brimstone.
> 
> Then the harlots are supposed to take "responsibility' for their choice while the dads skip town and don't pay child support...
> 
> leaving single moms as the largest single group on welfare.
> 
> but the people who fight against your right to control what you do with your body also  don't want to pay for welfare either.... or for job training... or anything else that would make the lives of these women easier.
> 
> because it's all about exacting pennance for their transgressions.
Click to expand...


Wow, well-said.

I am pro life (with certain exceptions, most of which were argued here), but most of what you said is spot on.  It's true:  Most conservatives don't really care about the fetus.  It's about the control.  They aren't a culture of life.  The Republican party is the culture of death.


----------



## Dr Grump

Terry said:


> If a woman wants an abortion then fine, but to promote abortions and shit that has been done is OVER the FUCKING LINE.



Who the hell promotes abortion? I know of several women who have had abortions, and not one of them enjoyed the experience one iota...


----------



## Terry

Dr Grump said:


> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman wants an abortion then fine, but to promote abortions and shit that has been done is OVER the FUCKING LINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell promotes abortion? I know of several women who have had abortions, and not one of them enjoyed the experience one iota...
Click to expand...

 Federal dollars asswipe!  If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers!  Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.


----------



## Dr Grump

Terry said:


> Federal dollars asswipe!  If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers!  Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.



Listen here Dogface, how do fed dollars PROMOTE abortion. Not inform, not give advice, but PROMOTE.
And you didn't address my post you dumb shit...


----------



## Anguille

Terry said:


> When our Gov. made laws to make it easier to just get an abortion instead of taking the pill, or re-vamp our adoption laws, to give that option more agressively to woman then there is a problem!


 

Since when have laws made it easier to get an abortion than to get birth control pills? At one time both were illegal in my state, still the pills were easy to obtain, according to my mother. Your doctor would tell you what pharmacists sold them under the counter. 

As far as it being easy to take birth control pills, they aren't tolerated by all women, nor affordable for all.


----------



## Terry

Dr Grump said:


> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Federal dollars asswipe! If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers! Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Listen here Dogface, how do fed dollars PROMOTE abortion. Not inform, not give advice, but PROMOTE.
> And you didn't address my post you dumb shit...
Click to expand...

 I see your mother decided not to abort you..shame really fatass!

Federal dollars goes to planned parent hood and most of that money I'm willing to bet goes to abortions...a girl comes in and is thinking about getting a fucking abortion and they ease the girls guilt and they do not give her other options...if that isn't promoting fatass then...I guess maybe you should go visit and see if you can be aborted now.


----------



## Valerie

> Abortion in the United States:
> Statistics and Trends
> 
> The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
> 
> Total Abortions since 1973
> 
> Downward Trend Continues
> 
> After reaching a high of over 1.6 million in 1990, the number of abortions annually performed in the U.S. has dropped back to levels not seen since the late 1970s.
> 
> Two independent sources confirm this decline: the governments Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), Planned Parenthoods special research affiliate monitoring trends in the abortion industry.



Abortion in the United States


----------



## Dr Grump

Terry said:


> I see your mother decided not to abort you..shame really fatass!
> 
> Federal dollars goes to planned parent hood and most of that money I'm willing to bet goes to abortions...a girl comes in and is thinking about getting a fucking abortion and they ease the girls guilt and they do not give her other options...if that isn't promoting fatass then...I guess maybe you should go visit and see if you can be aborted now.



Hey, if you wanna start insults Vinegar Tits, then have at. You get what you deserve.
I happen to agree with you, if you get knocked up and you want an abortion, you get it yourself (and the guy should pay towards it too). Do you know if the women are given options, or are you just guessing? Got any facts you wanna bring to the debate Fugly, or do you just make shit up as you go along?


----------



## Anguille

Terry said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman wants an abortion then fine, but to promote abortions and shit that has been done is OVER the FUCKING LINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell promotes abortion? I know of several women who have had abortions, and not one of them enjoyed the experience one iota...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Federal dollars asswipe! If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers! Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.
Click to expand...

 In other words lets go back to when the wealthy, who could afford to travel, got safe abortions and the not so wealthy got coathangers. 
Please support your claim that fed money goes to subsidize abortion. Currently my taxes go to support unwanted children in a world where overpopulation is becoming a serious threat.


----------



## Valerie

> "Planned Parenthood does more in one day to prevent unintended pregnancy and the need for abortion than politicians like Michele Bachmann do in a lifetime, said Stanley.
> 
> Indeed, Planned Parenthood offers a range of services in addition to abortion services, including those that prevent the need for abortion: access to birth control, emergency contraception, pregnancy options counseling, sexuality education, and vasectomies and tubal ligations. Those services are in addition to a range of other reproductive health services such as screening for breast, cervical and testicular cancers; pregnancy testing; testing and treatment for sexually transmitted diseases; and menopause treatments.



Republicans Call for an End to Planned Parenthood&#039;s Federal Funding | RHRealityCheck.org


----------



## DiamondDave

Anguille said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> A rat will always be a rat.. a human fetes even at a lesser developed statge will not remain that way, *it will continue developing into a full grown human...*
> 
> nice try
> 
> 
> 
> Actually many don't. Some abortions occur naturallly. It's called miscarriage.
Click to expand...


And just because cancer or hemorrhage occurs naturally, causing death, does not make it OK to commit murder


----------



## Chris

Legalized abortion is one of the best ways to prevent crime....

The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## DiamondDave

jillian said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's probably true. I understand the number used to be something like 80% of anti-choice activists were male.
> 
> It's a control thing... the religious right hasn't been able to stand it since the pill was invented.
> 
> And the proof of that? The same people who fight re-productive choice don't want birth control made readily available...... or the morning after pill...
> 
> and they preach "abstinence only"... which doesn't work. and is the sex version of fire and brimstone.
> 
> Then the harlots are supposed to take "responsibility' for their choice while the dads skip town and don't pay child support...
> 
> leaving single moms as the largest single group on welfare.
> 
> but the people who fight against your right to control what you do with your body also  don't want to pay for welfare either.... or for job training... or anything else that would make the lives of these women easier.
> 
> because it's all about exacting pennance for their transgressions.
Click to expand...


Nice, but feeble, attempt at psychoanalysis 

You simply keep skipping over the point of respecting and protecting innocent life... not vag envy...

And in actuality.. BOTH parents are supposed to provide and take care of the child.. whether it is the bastard or the bitch that skips town or whatever other scenario you wish to bring up

And again... all for voluntary charities and asking (not expecting) help from those charities..


----------



## DiamondDave

Anguille said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again.. it is not about what you do with your uterus... You can stuff it with cottage cheese and paint the inside blue for all I care... this is about protecting an innocent life at the early stages of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why does innocent life at any other stage of deveopment not arrouse your compasion?
Click to expand...


Hmmm.. I am for protecting anyone at any age against murder... and I am all for voluntary charitable support (and I give to many charities personally)


----------



## Neser Boha

DiamondDave said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again.. it is not about what you do with your uterus... You can stuff it with cottage cheese and paint the inside blue for all I care... this is about protecting an innocent life at the early stages of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why does innocent life at any other stage of deveopment not arrouse your compasion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm.. I am for protecting anyone at any age against murder... and I am all for voluntary charitable support (and I give to many charities personally)
Click to expand...


You're an idealist you know... but the world is not an ideal place, never was, and in all probability, never will be...  I for one, if I got pregnant, I would still keep the baby even if it weren't practical and I believe I'd make it work no matter what... however, I don't know what other women's situation is, what hardship do they have to face, what's going on in their heads, etc... therefore I have NO RIGHT to tell a woman who has an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy that she can't abort just because I'd never do that.  

I place the mother's life ahead of the foetus/zygote... and not only in life threatening medical situations.

This I call realism...

Rhetorical question:

If you and your wife just conceived a child at the same time a war started in your country...  would you choose to keep the baby and therefore endanger the life of your wife (unavailability of proper medical care, stress, flying bombs, etc.) and the future baby for your principles?  Some people might feel that their life is a warzone (lack of medical insurance, bad financial situation, divorce, something that would make their life miserable if they had a baby at the same time) and a mistake happened... and what are they supposed to do now?  Risk it all for YOUR principles?

That's immoral - imposing your set or principles on others' lives - lives that you have nothing to do with - whose faces you will probably never see and whose burden you will never share.


----------



## DiamondDave

Neser Boha said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why does innocent life at any other stage of deveopment not arrouse your compasion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.. I am for protecting anyone at any age against murder... and I am all for voluntary charitable support (and I give to many charities personally)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're an idealist you know... but the world is not an ideal place, never was, and in all probability, never will be...  I for one, if I got pregnant, I would still keep the baby even if it weren't practical and I believe I'd make it work no matter what... however, I don't know what other women's situation is, what hardship do they have to face, what's going on in their heads, etc... therefore I have NO RIGHT to tell a woman who has an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy that she can't abort just because I'd never do that.
> 
> I place the mother's life ahead of the foetus/zygote... and not only in life threatening medical situations.
> 
> This I call realism...
> 
> Rhetorical question:
> 
> If you and your wife just conceived a child at the same time a war started in your country...  would you choose to keep the baby and therefore endanger the life of your wife (unavailability of proper medical care, stress, flying bombs, etc.) and the future baby for your principles?  Some people might feel that their life is a warzone (lack of medical insurance, bad financial situation, divorce, something that would make their life miserable if they had a baby at the same time) and a mistake happened... and what are they supposed to do now?  Risk it all for YOUR principles?
> 
> That's immoral - imposing your set or principles on others' lives - lives that you have nothing to do with - whose faces you will probably never see and whose burden you will never share.
Click to expand...


I place the importance of both lives as equal... but you have never seen me oppose the possibility of procedure to save the mother's life... HOWEVER, this is a VERY small % of the time that it is even a remote possibility... but even then I have seen choices made by mothers to sacrifice themselves for the life of the child growing within them

If I were married, my wife were pregnant, and I were called to war, it is no reason to punish or murder the unborn baby for convenience

We have a principle to protect life.. unfortunately we have a warped and selfish group that discounts the life of the ones that are least able to fend for themselves....

I am the dad of a little girl who was WAYYY premature... smaller than many children that have been aborted.. it was scary as crap... but amazing when a tiny little child like that, who was struggling to survive, craving the touch, human contact, and interaction... 

Life first, personal convenience is MILES back from that


----------



## DamnYankee

Terry said:


> I see your mother decided not to abort you..shame really fatass! (snipped)



Saw a similar comment earlier in this thread. Very conducive to making a point and changing opinions.... <sarcasm>


----------



## Neser Boha

DiamondDave said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.. I am for protecting anyone at any age against murder... and I am all for voluntary charitable support (and I give to many charities personally)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're an idealist you know... but the world is not an ideal place, never was, and in all probability, never will be...  I for one, if I got pregnant, I would still keep the baby even if it weren't practical and I believe I'd make it work no matter what... however, I don't know what other women's situation is, what hardship do they have to face, what's going on in their heads, etc... therefore I have NO RIGHT to tell a woman who has an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy that she can't abort just because I'd never do that.
> 
> I place the mother's life ahead of the foetus/zygote... and not only in life threatening medical situations.
> 
> This I call realism...
> 
> Rhetorical question:
> 
> If you and your wife just conceived a child at the same time a war started in your country...  would you choose to keep the baby and therefore endanger the life of your wife (unavailability of proper medical care, stress, flying bombs, etc.) and the future baby for your principles?  Some people might feel that their life is a warzone (lack of medical insurance, bad financial situation, divorce, something that would make their life miserable if they had a baby at the same time) and a mistake happened... and what are they supposed to do now?  Risk it all for YOUR principles?
> 
> That's immoral - imposing your set or principles on others' lives - lives that you have nothing to do with - whose faces you will probably never see and whose burden you will never share.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I place the importance of both lives as equal... but you have never seen me oppose the possibility of procedure to save the mother's life... HOWEVER, this is a VERY small % of the time that it is even a remote possibility... but even then I have seen choices made by mothers to sacrifice themselves for the life of the child growing within them
> 
> If I were married, my wife were pregnant, and I were called to war, it is no reason to punish or murder the unborn baby for convenience
> 
> We have a principle to protect life.. unfortunately we have a warped and selfish group that discounts the life of the ones that are least able to fend for themselves....
> 
> I am the dad of a little girl who was WAYYY premature... smaller than many children that have been aborted.. it was scary as crap... but amazing when a tiny little child like that, who was struggling to survive, craving the touch, human contact, and interaction...
> 
> Life first, personal convenience is MILES back from that
Click to expand...


That's the difference... while I consider the life of a potential mother (me) as a priority, you consider the life of the fetus (potential, not necessarily future baby) equal to the life of the mother - no matter how developed the fetus is.

In my mind, the fetus's life grows in importance as it grows within a willing mother.  Once it reaches 100% viability (birth), its life is equal to that of the mother.  How about that.  

I think that is quite a healthy approach.  But I know that according to you it's sick... because as soon as the sperm hits the egg, the mother's life is not her own anymore and the worth of her life decreases as it is challenged by the life growing inside of her... she basically turns from an autonomous human being into a receptacle that should be forbidden by the law to spill its unwanted contents out...  

Oh well... glad I don't live in the same country as you do


----------



## DiamondDave

Glad you are not in the same country as me as well.. When a person like you believes you can arbitrarily choose what value to put on an innocent life... at your whim and for whatever convenience you wish

What next, choosing that the value of the life of an elderly person, who cannot do for themselves, is also not equal if it burdens their children? You can just decide to off them because you don't want the responsibility or the inconvenience? Devaluing the worth of an autistic child with no means to take care of themself, so off to get executed?

No.. life is to be protected, even if you feel inconvenienced


----------



## Newby

Anguille said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> your are making a caveat to your "leave individuals alone and let them make their own choice" ALREADY?!?! you DONT SAY!
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility? Is that too tough? Too much to consider? Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus. enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility. When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Responbility is a dirty word. Whenever you look at all the issues that the left loves to push on everyone else, it always has something to do with taking care of people who have not been responsible for themselves in some way or another. It's a way to get their grubby little hands on everyone's money while trying to pretend that they're only doing what's 'morally' right for 'every' citizen. There's no choice involved when it comes to forcing others to follow what they think is morally right, they have no problem with using legislation to force others into following their morality whatsoever. That's why they have to intertwine abortion and religion so zealously, so they have a 'good' reason to not allow your morals to disrupt their agenda. Their morals are a completely different story, however. It's funny how when you talk about the left and its agenda, hypocrasy is always the word that comes to mind first.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Shogun, does it not give you pause that someone like Newby agrees with you?
Click to expand...



'Someone like Newby'????    Actually, I agree with Shogun on several things and have stated so whenever I've had the opportunity.  Your attempt at stereotyping is really quite amusing tho.   

I wonder why a lot of people supporting 'choice' for a woman to kill her baby are 'only supporting it in the first trimester'?  Really, if you support it, then support it all the way.  By saying it's okay ONLY in the first trimester, aren't you basically stating that you really think it's immoral, but there's this little gray line that you're deciding to draw to make yourself feel better about your stance?  If there is nothing morally wrong with abortion, then why not support it all the way?


----------



## Newby

WiseOldMan said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's probably true. I understand the number used to be something like 80% of anti-choice activists were male.
> 
> It's a control thing... the religious right hasn't been able to stand it since the pill was invented.
> 
> And the proof of that? The same people who fight re-productive choice don't want birth control made readily available...... or the morning after pill...
> 
> and they preach "abstinence only"... which doesn't work. and is the sex version of fire and brimstone.
> 
> Then the harlots are supposed to take "responsibility' for their choice while the dads skip town and don't pay child support...
> 
> leaving single moms as the largest single group on welfare.
> 
> but the people who fight against your right to control what you do with your body also  don't want to pay for welfare either.... or for job training... or anything else that would make the lives of these women easier.
> 
> because it's all about exacting pennance for their transgressions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, well-said.
> 
> I am pro life (with certain exceptions, most of which were argued here), but most of what you said is spot on.  It's true:  Most conservatives don't really care about the fetus.  It's about the control.  They aren't a culture of life.  The Republican party is the culture of death.
Click to expand...



Yeah, people should be able to go out and do whatever the hell they want with their lives and not take responsibility for any of their actions, and then rely on the money of people who have made touch choices and acted responsibly.  We can legislate taking people's hard earned income away from them on the moral charge that we should be responsible for those who are not responsible for themselves, yet do nothing to curtail irresponsibility in our society.  You want your cake and to eat it too.  You want to tell people to use the 'poor' crutch, the 'race' crutch, etc.. as an excuse for not having done anything with their lives, so it's okay to not be responible, spit out as many babies as you like, kill them if you like, and the rest of society will just take care of you.

Jillian's argument makes no sense.  I mean pick which way you want it, conservatives want to control your lives, but they don't want to have to pay for it?   If we didn't want to have to pay for it, wouldn't we be all about abortion?  The less to pay for, the better right?   No, see that's how a person with a left point of view would look at it, not someone from the right.  They see people as a drain on the 'system', another mouth to feed, another person to pay for.  They see wealth as a limited pie to be divided and the more people eating from the pie, the less for them.  Conservatives see wealth as a positive and ever growing commodity and every life as a potential person to add to the goodness of humanity.  It has nothing to do with control, the left is all about control, just look at what they advocate in social programs all the way to whacked out environmentalism.  The hypocrisy is amazing.


----------



## catzmeow

Newby said:


> I wonder why a lot of people supporting 'choice' for a woman to kill her baby are 'only supporting it in the first trimester'?



I support abortion only in the first trimester, because the further along a baby goes to down the path towards independent sentience, the wronger it is to kill it.

I don't believe that a 12 week old fetus is equivalent to a 40 week old fetus.  Guess what?  Most Americans don't.


----------



## Newby

So, it's morally okay to kill a 12 week old baby, but not a 40 week old baby?


----------



## Anguille

Chris said:


> Legalized abortion is one of the best ways to prevent crime....
> 
> The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Abortion is also good for the environment. When there are more people than this planet can support we could well end up killing each other or dying of hunger. Maybe both. 

Those who would have women endlessly pump out babies against their will, claiming it's because of their respect for life, only facilitate our possible extinction. It's quite perverse of them to call themselves pro life.


----------



## Anguille

Newby said:


> So, it's morally okay to kill a 12 week old baby, but not a 40 week old baby?


Why are you talking about killing newborns?


----------



## AllieBaba

catzmeow said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why a lot of people supporting 'choice' for a woman to kill her baby are 'only supporting it in the first trimester'?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I support abortion only in the first trimester, because *the further along a baby goes to down the path towards independent sentience, the wronger it is to kill it*.
> 
> I don't believe that a 12 week old fetus is equivalent to a 40 week old fetus.  Guess what?  Most Americans don't.
Click to expand...





The wronger it is to kill it? So you admit you think it's okay to kill someone when you dictate their life is an impediment to yours? Provided they aren't as big as you, of course...?


----------



## AllieBaba

Anguille said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Legalized abortion is one of the best ways to prevent crime....
> 
> The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is also good for the environment. When there are more people than this planet can support we could well end up killing each other or dying of hunger. Maybe both.
> 
> Those who would have women endlessly pump out babies against their will, claiming it's because of their respect for life, only facilitate our possible extinction. It's quite perverse of them to call themselves pro life.
Click to expand...


What women are these? Because I've never heard of someone having a baby against her will.

You make the choice when you decide the risk of getting pregnant is worth it. That's when the choice over whether or not to create life is made.

Abortion is good for the environment? Are you fucking kidding me? Please provide some stats to back up these ridiculous allegations. That's about the stupidest thing I've heard in quite a while. You should get a prize.

But since we're just going to make idiotic emotional arguments and justification for murder, and treat them as though they are valid, I'll say this....abortion is bad for the environment because we're killing off a whole population of geniuses who might have the answer to the BIG questions.


----------



## Newby

Anguille said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Legalized abortion is one of the best ways to prevent crime....
> 
> The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is also good for the environment. When there are more people than this planet can support we could well end up killing each other or dying of hunger. Maybe both.
> 
> Those who would have women endlessly pump out babies against their will, claiming it's because of their respect for life, only facilitate our possible extinction. It's quite perverse of them to call themselves pro life.
Click to expand...



  Classic, exactly what I said your point of view would be a few posts back.

Pump out babies against their will????    DON'T HAVE SEX, there are CONSEQUENCES to your actions.


----------



## Newby

Anguille said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, it's morally okay to kill a 12 week old baby, but not a 40 week old baby?
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you talking about killing newborns?
Click to expand...


Okay, what about a 38 week old baby still in the womb, that's different than a 40 week old baby in the womb?  When does it become a newborn?


----------



## Shogun

Dr Grump said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer?  I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?
> 
> You probably shouldn't try and tangent into torture, yo... that one will blow up in your face.
> 
> Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again.  Don't want my opinion in your vagina?  Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most abortions happen in the first trimester. If you want all those people not to have abortions, put a sign out and say you'll take care of the baby.
> Before you scream "personal choice" and "close your legs" - save the rant. I deal with how it happens in real life, not some warped Utopian ideal that your moral high-ground vacuous, mind-numbing brain thinks the world should work. Start dealing with reality, then start giving practical solutions. We can all stand on our high horse. You do that a lot, with this and the Israel issues....
Click to expand...


Again, who needs to hold a sign when voting will work just as well?  There is no dispute that abortions were not always legal.  Thus, they can become illegal again.  Save your mellodrama for teh coathanger excuses.

You could also say that you deal with murder in real life, too.  That a killer doesn't subscribe to some utopian concept that killing humans beings is against the law.  I don't really care how you rationalize killing babies OR murderous killers.  Call it utopian.  Call it a moral high ground.  If you want to act like a criminal savage then the rest of society will treat you like one.  

ps, reality is not defined solely by how you think it should function.  Go ask the ghost of David Ben Gurion all about utopian ideas and practical solutions.  I'm sure you'll switch the foot you stood on when posting that giant pile of stupid.


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Nesser.. by all means.. HAVE complete control of your body while making decisions on who to fuck and preventing unwanted pregnancy. However, a fetus is genetically distinct from YOUR body and, thus, is NOT YOUR BODY. You certainly DO have a choice here... But, the choice happens BEFORE the fucking begins.
> 
> I've seen this pendulum swinging back for a while now. It's time for a compromise on Abortion. You will regret throwing this into a batch of "purely legal issue", Nes.. I promise you'll change that line after abortion gets banned and is no longer a LEGAL OPTION. If abortion defenders put as much time, effort and energy into PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies as they do DEFENDING the killing of feti then this would be a non-issue. You've got a myriad of birth control options and the individual prerogative to use them. Do it and stop making excuses for killing human genetic individuals..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could get you pregnant. You'd be singing a different tune.
Click to expand...


Rather, I'd CHOOSE to require you to utilize every birth control option available before you came near me.  You wouldn't get me preggos, ang.  Responsibility is crazy like that.


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't want my opinion in your vagina? Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've got issues, dude!
Click to expand...


says the advocate of killing genetically distinct human beings.  You'll have to forgive me for taking your criticism with the same amusement reserved for clown faced midgets and other assorted acts of comedy.


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
Click to expand...


No, ang.. that would be the wholesale killing of human beings.  I can see how you'd get confused though, ya vaginal pol pot.


----------



## Anguille

Newby said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, it's morally okay to kill a 12 week old baby, but not a 40 week old baby?
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you talking about killing newborns?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, what about a 38 week old baby still in the womb, that's different than a 40 week old baby in the womb?  When does it become a newborn?
Click to expand...

 When it's born. 

You are dense, aren't you.


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's probably true. I understand the number used to be something like 80% of anti-choice activists were male.
> 
> It's a control thing... the religious right hasn't been able to stand it since the pill was invented.
> 
> And the proof of that? The same people who fight re-productive choice don't want birth control made readily available...... or the morning after pill...
> 
> and they preach "abstinence only"... which doesn't work. and is the sex version of fire and brimstone.
> 
> Then the harlots are supposed to take "responsibility' for their choice while the dads skip town and don't pay child support...
> 
> leaving single moms as the largest single group on welfare.
> 
> but the people who fight against your right to control what you do with your body also  don't want to pay for welfare either.... or for job training... or anything else that would make the lives of these women easier.
> 
> because it's all about exacting pennance for their transgressions.
Click to expand...


thats nothing less than three shades of fucking retarded.  I can quote pages of posts by abortion opponents making it clear that no one gives a damn who you fuck, how much you fuck, and why you choose to fuck.  By all means.. go fuck.  but do so without having to kill a human as frivolously as pealing back a safety wrapper from a bottle of mouthwash.


after all.. I sure do strike you as a fucking morality monging jesus loving dogma junie, dont I?  I guess the rhetorical bullshit the likes of which give Ken Mehlman orgasms is easier than facing the reality of the scraped remains of a genetic human individual.  This is no more about "controlling" a woman than cops are just trying to "control" murderers.


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> your are making a caveat to your "leave individuals alone and let them make their own choice" ALREADY?!?! you DONT SAY!
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: Why don't you excercise your rights to choose whom to fuck in the first place and AVOID the abortion conflict altogether with a little responsibility? Is that too tough? Too much to consider? Womens suffrage didn't happen so that women could murder a fetus. enjoy your personal autonomy AND your personal responsibility. When your lifestyle requires the killing of a genetic human distinction then you might want to re-evaluate what choices, EXACTLY, were once the fuel of the womans rights movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Responbility is a dirty word. Whenever you look at all the issues that the left loves to push on everyone else, it always has something to do with taking care of people who have not been responsible for themselves in some way or another. It's a way to get their grubby little hands on everyone's money while trying to pretend that they're only doing what's 'morally' right for 'every' citizen. There's no choice involved when it comes to forcing others to follow what they think is morally right, they have no problem with using legislation to force others into following their morality whatsoever. That's why they have to intertwine abortion and religion so zealously, so they have a 'good' reason to not allow your morals to disrupt their agenda. Their morals are a completely different story, however. It's funny how when you talk about the left and its agenda, hypocrasy is always the word that comes to mind first.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Shogun, does it not give you pause that someone like Newby agrees with you?
Click to expand...


I don't collect followers, Ang.  I agree and disagree with many people regardless.  And, truthfully, with a sidekick like pedobear-postate do you think you should really be pointing a finger at anyone here?


----------



## Anguille

Shogun said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Nesser.. by all means.. HAVE complete control of your body while making decisions on who to fuck and preventing unwanted pregnancy. However, a fetus is genetically distinct from YOUR body and, thus, is NOT YOUR BODY. You certainly DO have a choice here... But, the choice happens BEFORE the fucking begins.
> 
> I've seen this pendulum swinging back for a while now. It's time for a compromise on Abortion. You will regret throwing this into a batch of "purely legal issue", Nes.. I promise you'll change that line after abortion gets banned and is no longer a LEGAL OPTION. If abortion defenders put as much time, effort and energy into PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies as they do DEFENDING the killing of feti then this would be a non-issue. You've got a myriad of birth control options and the individual prerogative to use them. Do it and stop making excuses for killing human genetic individuals..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could get you pregnant. You'd be singing a different tune.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rather, I'd CHOOSE to require you to utilize every birth control option available before you came near me.  You wouldn't get me preggos, ang.  Responsibility is crazy like that.
Click to expand...

  Abstinence is the only birth control method that is 100% effective. If you don't want me to get you pregnant quit spreading your legs.


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Legalized abortion is one of the best ways to prevent crime....
> 
> The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is also good for the environment. When there are more people than this planet can support we could well end up killing each other or dying of hunger. Maybe both.
> 
> Those who would have women endlessly pump out babies against their will, claiming it's because of their respect for life, only facilitate our possible extinction. It's quite perverse of them to call themselves pro life.
Click to expand...


Oh I KNOW!  ground up fetus makes the BEST fertilizer!


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could get you pregnant. You'd be singing a different tune.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather, I'd CHOOSE to require you to utilize every birth control option available before you came near me.  You wouldn't get me preggos, ang.  Responsibility is crazy like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Abstinence is the only birth control method that is 100% effective. If you don't want me to get you pregnant quit spreading your legs.
Click to expand...


Indeed, I have no problem fucking you in the ass, Ang.. If anal sex is what you crave then stop beating around the proverbial bush.  I guess you've never sucked a dick before, eh?


----------



## MaggieMae

Anguille said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
Click to expand...


It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _

Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.


----------



## MaggieMae

Terry said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman wants an abortion then fine, but to promote abortions and shit that has been done is OVER the FUCKING LINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell promotes abortion? I know of several women who have had abortions, and not one of them enjoyed the experience one iota...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Federal dollars asswipe!  If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers!  Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.
Click to expand...


Explain how taxpayers foot the bill for abortions. Planned Parenthood may get some grant money, but that's funding already allocated for a myriad of similar community health programs.

Just because Roe v. Wade made abortion legal hardly means the procedure is automatically government funded. Hello?


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
Click to expand...


and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.


----------



## MaggieMae

Terry said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Federal dollars asswipe! If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers! Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Listen here Dogface, how do fed dollars PROMOTE abortion. Not inform, not give advice, but PROMOTE.
> And you didn't address my post you dumb shit...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I see your mother decided not to abort you..shame really fatass!
> 
> Federal dollars goes to planned parent hood and most of that money I'm willing to bet goes to abortions...a girl comes in and is thinking about getting a fucking abortion and they ease the girls guilt and they do not give her other options...if that isn't promoting fatass then...I guess maybe you should go visit and see if you can be aborted now.
Click to expand...


Wow, you act like such an authority on this whole subject. Unfortunately, you haven't done much homework.

Poll shows Sen. Harry Reid almost as unpopular in Nevada as Gov. Jim Gibbons | www.rgj.com | Reno Gazette-Journal


----------



## MaggieMae

Anguille said:


> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell promotes abortion? I know of several women who have had abortions, and not one of them enjoyed the experience one iota...
> 
> 
> 
> Federal dollars asswipe! If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers! Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In other words lets go back to when the wealthy, who could afford to travel, got safe abortions and the not so wealthy got coathangers.
> Please support your claim that fed money goes to subsidize abortion. Currently my taxes go to support unwanted children in a world where overpopulation is becoming a serious threat.
Click to expand...


There's no need to even travel. All it takes is a doctor who will claim he did a D&C and the insurance will cover it too!!


----------



## AllieBaba

MaggieMae said:


> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell promotes abortion? I know of several women who have had abortions, and not one of them enjoyed the experience one iota...
> 
> 
> 
> Federal dollars asswipe!  If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers!  Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Explain how taxpayers foot the bill for abortions. Planned Parenthood may get some grant money, but that's funding already allocated for a myriad of similar community health programs.
> 
> Just because Roe v. Wade made abortion legal hardly means the procedure is automatically government funded. Hello?
Click to expand...



Planned Parenthood gets a LOT of grant money, and until the last 10 years or so, abortion was a procedure that your medical card would pay for.

Not only that, Planned Parenthood, which has an overhead of tens of millions, is a non-profit. A non-profit that isn't required to report accurately or answer to anyone.


----------



## MaggieMae

DiamondDave said:


> Glad you are not in the same country as me as well.. When a person like you believes you can arbitrarily choose what value to put on an innocent life... at your whim and for whatever convenience you wish
> 
> What next, choosing that the value of the life of an elderly person, who cannot do for themselves, is also not equal if it burdens their children? You can just decide to off them because you don't want the responsibility or the inconvenience? Devaluing the worth of an autistic child with no means to take care of themself, so off to get executed?
> 
> No.. life is to be protected, even if you feel inconvenienced



Your key word was "arbitarily," and she did not give you willy-nilly examples. She gave you a specific hypothesis. 

The subject of what to do with the elderly who can no longer function at home and whose children are either unwilling or incapable of helping is stuff for a new thread. I'd like to see it discussed, because the political differences are sure to be uglier than the topic of abortion. I can almost hear the wails from the far right--WHY SHOULD *MY* TAX DOLLARS GO TO SUPPORT *YOUR* AGING PARENTS!!


----------



## AllieBaba

No, it's all the same. The same people who want to yank the rights of a 13 year old to determine whether or not he wants painful treatment and force him to have treatment are the people who have no problem with yanking the rights of the old, the infirm, the young, the vulnerable, and diminished capacity people. You're eugenecists, and the kind who absolutely don't believe that the child of a poor woman is as valuable as your own.


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Legalized abortion is one of the best ways to prevent crime....
> 
> The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is also good for the environment. When there are more people than this planet can support we could well end up killing each other or dying of hunger. Maybe both.
> 
> Those who would have women endlessly pump out babies against their will, claiming it's because of their respect for life, only facilitate our possible extinction. It's quite perverse of them to call themselves pro life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What women are these? Because I've never heard of someone having a baby against her will.
> 
> You make the choice when you decide the risk of getting pregnant is worth it. That's when the choice over whether or not to create life is made.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Omg, I think you must have (a) never even had a sexual encounter, and/or (b) still relying on mumbo jumbo printed for young girls back in the 40's.


----------



## AllieBaba

And when you can no longer address the issue, you personally attack. Because I don't see any evidence to back up your statements there.


----------



## MaggieMae

Shogun said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rather, I'd CHOOSE to require you to utilize every birth control option available before you came near me.  You wouldn't get me preggos, ang.  Responsibility is crazy like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinence is the only birth control method that is 100% effective. If you don't want me to get you pregnant quit spreading your legs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, I have no problem fucking you in the ass, Ang.. If anal sex is what you crave then stop beating around the proverbial bush.  I guess you've never sucked a dick before, eh?
Click to expand...


 It's always easy to tell who's losing an argument. S/he starts acting like a forty-something going on twelve.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinence is the only birth control method that is 100% effective. If you don't want me to get you pregnant quit spreading your legs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, I have no problem fucking you in the ass, Ang.. If anal sex is what you crave then stop beating around the proverbial bush.  I guess you've never sucked a dick before, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's always easy to tell who's losing an argument. S/he starts acting like a forty-something going on twelve.
Click to expand...


That is a hilarious accusation coming from the same person to address Allie Baba by insisting that she's never had sex!


*
Omg, I think you must have (a) never even had a sexual encounter, and/or (b) still relying on mumbo jumbo printed for young girls back in the 40's.*

please, don't let the irony hit you on your ass while you leave this thread!


----------



## MaggieMae

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
Click to expand...


*Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> No, it's all the same. The same people who want to yank the rights of a 13 year old to determine whether or not he wants painful treatment and force him to have treatment are the people who have no problem with yanking the rights of the old, the infirm, the young, the vulnerable, and diminished capacity people. You're eugenecists, and the kind who absolutely don't believe that the child of a poor woman is as valuable as your own.



Riiiight...


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> And when you can no longer address the issue, you personally attack. Because I don't see any evidence to back up your statements there.



You think women who belong to religous cults and are FORCED to father children by the so-called "prophet" aren't doing so against their will? I can cite many examples, kiddo. And the "choice" to have sex or not is quite often NOT up to the woman. I could even tell you a few horror stories about having to put up with my drunken husband who demanded sex from me, which, if I turned him down would result in even worse consequences--like broken bones. Fortunately, I used birth control which he didn't know about. Being the good Catholic he was, raping his wife was his right and if a child was the result, he had the Pope on his side.

You need to re-think your ranting nonsense, at least on those two issues.


----------



## Neser Boha

Shogun said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer?  I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?
> 
> You probably shouldn't try and tangent into torture, yo... that one will blow up in your face.
> 
> Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again.  Don't want my opinion in your vagina?  Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most abortions happen in the first trimester. If you want all those people not to have abortions, put a sign out and say you'll take care of the baby.
> Before you scream "personal choice" and "close your legs" - save the rant. I deal with how it happens in real life, not some warped Utopian ideal that your moral high-ground vacuous, mind-numbing brain thinks the world should work. Start dealing with reality, then start giving practical solutions. We can all stand on our high horse. You do that a lot, with this and the Israel issues....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, who needs to hold a sign when voting will work just as well?  There is no dispute that abortions were not always legal.  Thus, they can become illegal again.  Save your mellodrama for teh coathanger excuses.
> 
> You could also say that you deal with murder in real life, too.  That a killer doesn't subscribe to some utopian concept that killing humans beings is against the law.  I don't really care how you rationalize killing babies OR murderous killers.  Call it utopian.  Call it a moral high ground.  If you want to act like a criminal savage then the rest of society will treat you like one.
> 
> ps, reality is not defined solely by how you think it should function.  Go ask the ghost of David Ben Gurion all about utopian ideas and practical solutions.  I'm sure you'll switch the foot you stood on when posting that giant pile of stupid.
Click to expand...


Dearie... consider this: 

I have a friend.  She recently confided in me that about two years ago she had an abortion that both her and her boyfriend agreed on as they just met each other and were not in any condition to be able to take care of a baby...  It was hard for them, but they still think it was the best decision they could have made at that time.

So, according to your tirade above, she's a common criminal savage that should be treated as one.  Is that correct?

If a friend of yours confided in you like that... how would you treat her?  As common trash?  Called her names?  Beat her up in the dark alley calling her a whore cuz she couldn't keep her legs together?

My mother... two months before divorcing my father who was an alcoholic and often threatened her with physical harm... had an abortion.  She chose to be a single mom with one kid instead of a single mother with two kids... Yeah, she deserves nothing but contempt as she's on par with a savage criminal...




(PS: It is also quite interesting that the only group of people that can be punished (as you would have them) for this 'crime' are women...)

PERSPECTIVE ANYONE?


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
Click to expand...


spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.  

Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!   

And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.  

Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.


----------



## AllieBaba

Not only that, the evidence does NOT show anything regarding what trimester abortions occur at, because abortion clinics are fuzzy about their stats. The Guttmacher Institute has that disclaimer all through their site...and they are the #1 pro-abortion/abortion statistics provider in the world.


----------



## AllieBaba

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
Click to expand...



Oh, good point. Most liberals are of the opinion if a drunk kills someone in a car wreck, the poor slob should be put away for life..or killed!

But women who get drunk and get pregnant should be given a pass on killing their babies.


----------



## Newby

MaggieMae said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
Click to expand...


That's great, place all the blame on the guy....   I'm a woman and to not take responsibility for your OWN actions is just simply pathetic.  You don't let him be the one that makes the decision, you make your own, that's what strong women do.


----------



## Anguille

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
Click to expand...


Are you PMS ing?


----------



## Anguille

Newby said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's great, place all the blame on the guy....   I'm a woman and to not take responsibility for your OWN actions is just simply pathetic.  You don't let him be the one that makes the decision, you make your own, that's what strong women do.
Click to expand...

So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?


----------



## Newby

Anguille said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's great, place all the blame on the guy....   I'm a woman and to not take responsibility for your OWN actions is just simply pathetic.  You don't let him be the one that makes the decision, you make your own, that's what strong women do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
Click to expand...


She was speaking about getting so caught up in things that you just can't say 'no', therefore you have to have the ability to do away with the consequences should there be any.  Why is it okay for the female to get so caught up in things that it totally takes priority over everything, inclusing the risk of getting pregnant.  But, now you're saying that the guy is untrustworthy if he is equally caught up in the moment and doesn't pull out?  Hypocrisy much?   It's YOUR body, as I've heard ad nauseum, you are responsible for what you put into it and how you allow it to get there, but now you want to conveniently shift all the responibility to the guy?  Are you ever responsible for anything?


----------



## AllieBaba

I'd say the most fault lies with the one who has to deal with the consequences. Life's unfair, but the truth is, it's the woman who has the baby. Therefore, if she is stupid enough to place her wellbeing and the wellbeing of future children at risk by fraternizing with men who are untrustworthy, she is more to blame.

Because after all, she could just say no.


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you PMS ing?
Click to expand...


thats kind of a sexist statement, eh?  Can I ask you if you are on the rag every time you post in a thread?  oh, duh.. do as I say not as I do.. gotcha.


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's great, place all the blame on the guy....   I'm a woman and to not take responsibility for your OWN actions is just simply pathetic.  You don't let him be the one that makes the decision, you make your own, that's what strong women do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
Click to expand...


caveat emptor.  chances are, if you are fucking "spontaneously" in the restroom stall of a night club irresponsibly then perhaps, and I know this is a giant shocker, your own poor choices have resulted in a path that you can't blame on a pair of testicles.


----------



## Anguille

Shogun said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you PMS ing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> thats kind of a sexist statement, eh?  Can I ask you if you are on the rag every time you post in a thread?  oh, duh.. do as I say not as I do.. gotcha.
Click to expand...

That's the second sexist statement I've made to you in this thread. 'Bout time you caught on.


----------



## Anguille

Shogun said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's great, place all the blame on the guy....   I'm a woman and to not take responsibility for your OWN actions is just simply pathetic.  You don't let him be the one that makes the decision, you make your own, that's what strong women do.
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> caveat emptor.  chances are, if you are fucking "spontaneously" in the restroom stall of a night club irresponsibly then perhaps, and I know this is a giant shocker, your own poor choices have resulted in a path that you can't blame on a pair of testicles.
Click to expand...


If the guy who promised to pull out in the night club toilet stall, doesn't and the woman gets pregnant, will he also be half pregnant and have a say in if she can abort or not?

How does that scenario fit into the Great Shogum Compromise?


----------



## AllieBaba

MaggieMae said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And when you can no longer address the issue, you personally attack. Because I don't see any evidence to back up your statements there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think women who belong to religous cults and are FORCED to father children by the so-called "prophet" aren't doing so against their will? I can cite many examples, kiddo. And the "choice" to have sex or not is quite often NOT up to the woman. I could even tell you a few horror stories about having to put up with my drunken husband who demanded sex from me, which, if I turned him down would result in even worse consequences--like broken bones. Fortunately, I used birth control which he didn't know about. Being the good Catholic he was, raping his wife was his right and if a child was the result, he had the Pope on his side.
> 
> You need to re-think your ranting nonsense, at least on those two issues.
Click to expand...


You need to quit thinking that if people don't think like you do, they need to be "corrected" or are out of their minds.

I didn't hear anyone step forward to say they were "forced" to have children when the state inappropriately stormed the FDLS compound, took dozens of women and children, gave them pelvic exams (against their will) and then dumped them back together when they were unable to find anyone who would claim they were being or had been "abused".

Of course...the REASON that took place was because a mentally ill person who had a record of attempting to set people up in such a manner made ridiculous claims.....which were found to be untrue and unwarranted in any way.

Once again, have you any evidence of hordes of women being "forced" to carry children against their will?


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> caveat emptor.  chances are, if you are fucking "spontaneously" in the restroom stall of a night club irresponsibly then perhaps, and I know this is a giant shocker, your own poor choices have resulted in a path that you can't blame on a pair of testicles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If the guy who promised to pull out in the night club toilet stall, doesn't and the woman gets pregnant, will he also be half pregnant and have a say in if she can abort or not?
> 
> How does that scenario fit into the Great Shogum Compromise?
Click to expand...


First, perhaps you'll refrain from trying to justify irresponsible behaviour like throwing your pussy at the first guy to buy you a drink at the bar.

Second, specifically I mention that individuals should be responsible for using every form of contraception available.  From the pill to the morning after pill you have no excuse, besides blaming your own poor CHOICE, if you get knocked up while fucking in the restroom of a club.  No abortion for YOU!


Now, did you need to continue your lesson about sexual options which minimize the risk, of pregnancy or is this where I buy you a drink and tell yo to meet me in stall number 4?


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you PMS ing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thats kind of a sexist statement, eh?  Can I ask you if you are on the rag every time you post in a thread?  oh, duh.. do as I say not as I do.. gotcha.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's the second sexist statement I've made to you in this thread. 'Bout time you caught on.
Click to expand...


I let the fist one pass.. I'm buying the drinks, after all.


----------



## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> I'd say the most fault lies with the one who has to deal with the consequences. Life's unfair, but the truth is, it's the woman who has the baby. Therefore, if she is stupid enough to place her wellbeing and the wellbeing of future children at risk by fraternizing with men who are untrustworthy, she is more to blame.
> 
> Because after all, she could just say no.


I would say the most fault lies with whoever has the most control over the situation and if there is no physical force involved or abuse of authority or other such factor, then both partners share in the responsability for self control.
 I've never understood why men should get more of a pass than women do for being unable to control their urges but I know why they do. We still live in a sexist society.


----------



## Shogun

ahh yes.. when push comes to shove.. blame some testicles.


*yawn*


What man makes you let them stick their dick into you, Ang?  You think anyone forgets that No means No?  non-rapists, that is?


----------



## MaggieMae

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
Click to expand...


I'll wager I'm a much classier person than you are on the topic of, personal decisions regarding, or in fact performance during, *sex*. You, on the other hand, have just proven yourself to be nothing more than a holier-than-thou pig. 

Just for your, er _FUCKING_ edification, here are *ALL* the polls going back a couple of years. There's only ONE that shows a 51% approval rating. Surprise, surprise, even FOX's numbers aren't that high.

Abortion


----------



## MaggieMae

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> *Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!   *
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
Click to expand...


*Comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strong points, either.* But it's rather cute when someone feels a need to chuckle and harrumph over his sexual conquests. _(The [lady] doth protest too much, me thinks...) _


----------



## KittenKoder

In Canada they are very close to making it possible for a male to carry a child full term (all those experimented fetuses!) anyhoo, when it's possible for them to carry the fetus full term how about this, if the woman doesn't want it, let the men take it the rest of the development.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll wager I'm a much classier person than you are on the topic of, personal decisions regarding, or in fact performance during, *sex*. You, on the other hand, have just proven yourself to be nothing more than a holier-than-thou pig.
> 
> Just for your, er _FUCKING_ edification, here are *ALL* the polls going back a couple of years. There's only ONE that shows a 51% approval rating. Surprise, surprise, even FOX's numbers aren't that high.
> 
> Abortion
Click to expand...


CLEARLY you are not.  And, given how many times you've insisted that myself and others are virgins you'll have to forgive me for laughing at your misplaced self righteousness.



Again, look at the trends over the last 20 years.  You are not gaining ground.  Feel free to stomp your foot and throw a fit.


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, good point. Most liberals are of the opinion if a drunk kills someone in a car wreck, the poor slob should be put away for life..or killed!
> 
> But women who get drunk and get pregnant should be given a pass on killing their babies.
Click to expand...


Love your statistics. "Most liberals"??? I think some of you horses asses just like to see your shit in print, like someone really really important will "discover" what an articulate and well educated commentator you are. And maybe send you a basket of kudos.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> *Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!   *
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strong points, either.* But it's rather cute when someone feels a need to chuckle and harrumph over his sexual conquests. _(The [lady] doth protest too much, me thinks...) _
Click to expand...


It's really not a feat of comprehension when you've insisted that both myself and Allie Baba "must be" virgins.  Do you need me to quote you?  I'm not bragging at all; merely stating a fact.  a fact which you seem incapable of letting sink into that dense rock you have for a skull.  Perhaps your first error was to ASSume too much.


----------



## MaggieMae

Newby said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's great, place all the blame on the guy....   I'm a woman and to not take responsibility for your OWN actions is just simply pathetic.  You don't let him be the one that makes the decision, you make your own, that's what strong women do.
Click to expand...


Lotsa projection there, sweetie. I haven't, in any posting in this thread, said that a woman shouldn't take responsibility for protection TOO.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, good point. Most liberals are of the opinion if a drunk kills someone in a car wreck, the poor slob should be put away for life..or killed!
> 
> But women who get drunk and get pregnant should be given a pass on killing their babies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Love your statistics. "Most liberals"??? I think some of you horses asses just like to see your shit in print, like someone really really important will "discover" what an articulate and well educated commentator you are. And maybe send you a basket of kudos.
Click to expand...


...says just another user on an internet message board harping like a fucking banshee and stomping her dainty little foot in unbridled rage....





Perhaps you shouldn't throw stones if you are too much of a pussy to deal with rocks flying back at you...


----------



## AllieBaba

I don't think we've cornered the horse's ass market.


----------



## MaggieMae

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you PMS ing?
Click to expand...


It's the way it talks. Read some of its other postings. Unfucking real that this asshole actually gives a sweet shit one way or the other over an aborted fetus. I get the impression he could get off by slurping up the afterbirth. Shogun, male or female, is one crude dude.


----------



## AllieBaba

Charming. Obviously you have the greatest regard for human life.


----------



## MaggieMae

Newby said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's great, place all the blame on the guy....   I'm a woman and to not take responsibility for your OWN actions is just simply pathetic.  You don't let him be the one that makes the decision, you make your own, that's what strong women do.
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She was speaking about getting so caught up in things that you just can't say 'no', therefore you have to have the ability to do away with the consequences should there be any.  Why is it okay for the female to get so caught up in things that it totally takes priority over everything, inclusing the risk of getting pregnant.  But, now you're saying that the guy is untrustworthy if he is equally caught up in the moment and doesn't pull out?  Hypocrisy much?   It's YOUR body, as I've heard ad nauseum, you are responsible for what you put into it and how you allow it to get there, but now you want to conveniently shift all the responibility to the guy?  Are you ever responsible for anything?
Click to expand...


Once again, where have I shifted *"ALL"* the responsibility to the guy? I made _one_ fucking comment on a very common occurrence. _ONE_. When a guy says "I'll pull out" and at 180 pounds is on top of a woman weighing 115 pounds, it's kinda hard to start SHOVING HIS FAT ASS OFF when it becomes obvious he has no intention of pulling out.

It ain't rocket science. (But it _IS_ the weight of gravity compounded by the frenzy of the moment.)


----------



## MaggieMae

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> caveat emptor.  chances are, if you are fucking "spontaneously" in the restroom stall of a night club irresponsibly then perhaps, and I know this is a giant shocker, your own poor choices have resulted in a path that you can't blame on a pair of testicles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If the guy who promised to pull out in the night club toilet stall, doesn't and the woman gets pregnant, will he also be half pregnant and have a say in if she can abort or not?
> 
> How does that scenario fit into the Great Shogum Compromise?
Click to expand...


Well I was hardly referring to restroom stall quickies. That was Shogun's own version, typically laced with his pornographic imagination.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you PMS ing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's the way it talks. Read some of its other postings. Unfucking real that this asshole actually gives a sweet shit one way or the other over an aborted fetus. I get the impression he could get off by slurping up the afterbirth. Shogun, male or female, is one crude dude.
Click to expand...


It's cute the way nooby motherfuckers react to some good ole Shogun.  Listen, bitch.. don't cry about my posts when you are going to react in kind.  It kinda illustrates the flakeyness of your entire thread input.  If you don't like the tone of my words or the mudhole that gets stomped in your ass then I suggest you discover the block user button.

slurping up the afterbirth?  for real.. cry me another river. I LOVE irony.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was speaking about getting so caught up in things that you just can't say 'no', therefore you have to have the ability to do away with the consequences should there be any.  Why is it okay for the female to get so caught up in things that it totally takes priority over everything, inclusing the risk of getting pregnant.  But, now you're saying that the guy is untrustworthy if he is equally caught up in the moment and doesn't pull out?  Hypocrisy much?   It's YOUR body, as I've heard ad nauseum, you are responsible for what you put into it and how you allow it to get there, but now you want to conveniently shift all the responibility to the guy?  Are you ever responsible for anything?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again, where have I shifted *"ALL"* the responsibility to the guy? I made _one_ fucking comment on a very common occurrence. _ONE_. When a guy says "I'll pull out" and at 180 pounds is on top of a woman weighing 115 pounds, it's kinda hard to start SHOVING HIS FAT ASS OFF when it becomes obvious he has no intention of pulling out.
> 
> It ain't rocket science. (But it _IS_ the weight of gravity compounded by the frenzy of the moment.)
Click to expand...


ahh.. the ole "i'm a helpless little girl someone protect me" routine..


gotcha.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> caveat emptor.  chances are, if you are fucking "spontaneously" in the restroom stall of a night club irresponsibly then perhaps, and I know this is a giant shocker, your own poor choices have resulted in a path that you can't blame on a pair of testicles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the guy who promised to pull out in the night club toilet stall, doesn't and the woman gets pregnant, will he also be half pregnant and have a say in if she can abort or not?
> 
> How does that scenario fit into the Great Shogum Compromise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I was hardly referring to restroom stall quickies. That was Shogun's own version, typically laced with his pornographic imagination.
Click to expand...


and yet you just mentioned "slurping up the afterbirth"... yea.. you should probably cry about language...


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And when you can no longer address the issue, you personally attack. Because I don't see any evidence to back up your statements there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think women who belong to religous cults and are FORCED to father children by the so-called "prophet" aren't doing so against their will? I can cite many examples, kiddo. And the "choice" to have sex or not is quite often NOT up to the woman. I could even tell you a few horror stories about having to put up with my drunken husband who demanded sex from me, which, if I turned him down would result in even worse consequences--like broken bones. Fortunately, I used birth control which he didn't know about. Being the good Catholic he was, raping his wife was his right and if a child was the result, he had the Pope on his side.
> 
> You need to re-think your ranting nonsense, at least on those two issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You need to quit thinking that if people don't think like you do, they need to be "corrected" or are out of their minds.
> 
> I didn't hear anyone step forward to say they were "forced" to have children when the state inappropriately stormed the FDLS compound, took dozens of women and children, gave them pelvic exams (against their will) and then dumped them back together when they were unable to find anyone who would claim they were being or had been "abused".
> 
> Of course...the REASON that took place was because a mentally ill person who had a record of attempting to set people up in such a manner made ridiculous claims.....which were found to be untrue and unwarranted in any way.
> 
> Once again, have you any evidence of hordes of women being "forced" to carry children against their will?
Click to expand...


Do try to keep up, or at least read more than just the headlines:


Texas report: Kids in sect suffered neglect, abuse 
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer
December 24, 2008

SAN ANTONIO  
A dozen girls were sexually abused at a polygamist group's ranch targeted in a high-profile raid last spring, and parents neglected more than 250 other children living there by doing nothing to protect them from becoming future victims, Texas child welfare officials said in a report released Tuesday.

The Department of Family and Protective Services concluded there was evidence that 12 girls, ages 12 to 15, were "spiritually" married to adult men in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which runs the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Seven of them had one or more children, the report said.

An additional 262 children were listed as neglected because the agency said their parents knew there was sexual abuse in the household but did not move to protect the children from possible abuse.

The report, which summarizes the investigations done on all 439 children at the western Texas ranch, was issued at the request of the Health and Human Services executive commissioner, a gubernatorial appointee who oversees the protective services agency.

*"The Yearning for Zion case is about sexual abuse of girls and children who were taught that underage marriages are a way of life. It is about parents who condoned illegal underage marriages and adults who failed to protect young girls *- it has never been about religion," the agency said.

The report, an unusual step taken to help satisfy expected questions from the state Legislature when it convenes in January, summarized individual investigations and the history of the case. The findings, though shared with law enforcement, are separate from ongoing criminal cases.

*All the children from the ranch were placed in foster care in April after authorities raided it in response to calls to a domestic abuse hot line. Those calls are being investigated as a hoax, though a dozen FLDS men now face charges including sexual abuse and bigamy based on documents and evidence seized at the ranch.

"We received what we believed was a bona fide abuse/neglect report. We were required by law to investigate," DFPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said of the April raid.*

The children were returned to their parents in June after the Texas Supreme Court ruled the state had overstepped in removing all the children when it only had evidence of abuse or neglect involving about a half-dozen teenage girls. Many of the children seized were boys or younger than 5.

The individual investigations, which covered 146 families, concluded that 91 families had children who were abused or neglected. Crimmins said that conclusion confirmed what investigators initially suspected - that girls were being forced into underage marriages and other children were exposed to that harm.

FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop disputed the findings.

"The department has made many allegations that it's never been able to back up, in an effort to justify their barbaric actions," he said. "They need to learn how to say we're sorry instead of trying to justify their actions."

The Health and Human Services executive commissioner, Albert Hawkins, is satisfied with the report, which includes a history of the raid and legal decisions made during the case, spokeswoman Stephanie Goodman said.

"It's easy to forget that when (child welfare authorities) arrived at the ranch, it was a very confusing situation," she said.

*Since the investigations, most of the 200 parents have been through parenting classes and signed agreements promising to protect their children from alleged abusers. All but 15 of the children's cases have been dropped from court oversight because the agency believes they can be kept safe. One girl has been returned to foster care.*
The FLDS, which believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

The sect's prophet, Warren Jeffs, who is among the 12 men charged in Texas, was convicted in Utah as an accomplice to rape and awaits trial in Arizona on other charges related to the marriages of the sect girls there.

---

On the Net:

Department of Family and Protective Services' Eldorado page: DFPS - Eldorado Information


----------



## MaggieMae

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> spontaneity isn't an excuse for irresponsibility.  Funny how you are the first to leap to excuses, eh?  And, in regards to the looming reality of illegal abortions I guess you'll have to readjust your thinking the next time you are in a club bathroom, bent over for some guy that just bought you a drink.
> 
> Indeed, I've had lots of sex.  How funny it is that your sole rebuttal seems to be insisting that you are the only person to ever have fucked someone!
> 
> And, my partners have never had a problem with fucking a concerned, responsible person.  I'd hate to see what kind of festering bacteria pot your vag is given the kind of herpe-inviting stance you enjoy taking.
> 
> Indeed, when it comes to the potential killing of a human being there should be no margin of error.  Apparently, you'd also think our laws against drunk driving are too fascist too!  Seriously, if your sexuality is reflected in your failed "you have never had sex' arguement then I makes sense why you'd need to facilitate your self esteem with your ass.  Unfortunately for you, 51% and counting disagree with your logic and your cesspool method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll wager I'm a much classier person than you are on the topic of, personal decisions regarding, or in fact performance during, *sex*. You, on the other hand, have just proven yourself to be nothing more than a holier-than-thou pig.
> 
> Just for your, er _FUCKING_ edification, here are *ALL* the polls going back a couple of years. There's only ONE that shows a 51% approval rating. Surprise, surprise, even FOX's numbers aren't that high.
> 
> Abortion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CLEARLY you are not.  And, given how many times you've insisted that myself and others are virgins you'll have to forgive me for laughing at your misplaced self righteousness.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, look at the trends over the last 20 years.  You are not gaining ground.  Feel free to stomp your foot and throw a fit.
Click to expand...


Hey, stupid, I'm not the one throwing hissy fits and talking like an adolescent fratboy to make a point. That would be you.


----------



## AllieBaba

Every one was returned but one.

I wonder if you took a random sampling of 200 in any town if they would fare so well?


----------



## MaggieMae

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you PMS ing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the way it talks. Read some of its other postings. Unfucking real that this asshole actually gives a sweet shit one way or the other over an aborted fetus. I get the impression he could get off by slurping up the afterbirth. Shogun, male or female, is one crude dude.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's cute the way nooby motherfuckers react to some good ole Shogun.  Listen, bitch.. don't cry about my posts when you are going to react in kind.  It kinda illustrates the flakeyness of your entire thread input.  If you don't like the tone of my words or the mudhole that gets stomped in your ass then I suggest you discover the block user button.
> 
> slurping up the afterbirth?  for real.. cry me another river. I LOVE irony.
Click to expand...


Awwww, c'mon Sho-Off. Try to convince the rest of us that you're not getting off on this entire conversation.


----------



## MaggieMae

AllieBaba said:


> Every one was returned but one.
> 
> I wonder if you took a random sampling of 200 in any town if they would fare so well?



Probably not. But then that would prove you wrong (or whoever said it) that no woman is ever forced to have a baby. A ludicrous comment if ever.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll wager I'm a much classier person than you are on the topic of, personal decisions regarding, or in fact performance during, *sex*. You, on the other hand, have just proven yourself to be nothing more than a holier-than-thou pig.
> 
> Just for your, er _FUCKING_ edification, here are *ALL* the polls going back a couple of years. There's only ONE that shows a 51% approval rating. Surprise, surprise, even FOX's numbers aren't that high.
> 
> Abortion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLEARLY you are not.  And, given how many times you've insisted that myself and others are virgins you'll have to forgive me for laughing at your misplaced self righteousness.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, look at the trends over the last 20 years.  You are not gaining ground.  Feel free to stomp your foot and throw a fit.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey, stupid, I'm not the one throwing hissy fits and talking like an adolescent fratboy to make a point. That would be you.
Click to expand...


Whatever you say, ms. SLURP UP THE AFTERBIRTH.. Hey, maybe you can deny insisting that everyone else who disagrees with you must be a virgin next!



^ this is me.. laughing at you.


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's the way it talks. Read some of its other postings. Unfucking real that this asshole actually gives a sweet shit one way or the other over an aborted fetus. I get the impression he could get off by slurping up the afterbirth. Shogun, male or female, is one crude dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's cute the way nooby motherfuckers react to some good ole Shogun.  Listen, bitch.. don't cry about my posts when you are going to react in kind.  It kinda illustrates the flakeyness of your entire thread input.  If you don't like the tone of my words or the mudhole that gets stomped in your ass then I suggest you discover the block user button.
> 
> slurping up the afterbirth?  for real.. cry me another river. I LOVE irony.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Awwww, c'mon Sho-Off. Try to convince the rest of us that you're not getting off on this entire conversation.
Click to expand...



Like I said, Noobster...  try not to be so ironic when you cry foul.  I'll call you on it every time.  But, you'd have known that had you not decided to choke on a mouthful of the Shogun, noobilicious.

As to "getting off"... sorry.. while I do enjoy my friction inducing role around here I'm afraid you'll have to save the innuendos for your netcam.


----------



## AllieBaba

I think she may have stolen "slurp up the afterbirth" from you, Shogun....perhaps she's a fan?


----------



## Shogun

AllieBaba said:


> I think she may have stolen "slurp up the afterbirth" from you, Shogun....perhaps she's a fan?



Aren't they all?  She's probably swooning as we speak.


----------



## AllieBaba

No doubt.


----------



## Shogun

I bet Anguille remembers HER first time with Shoggy...


----------



## AllieBaba

You mean she wasn't drunk like the others?


----------



## MaggieMae

Shogun said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> CLEARLY you are not.  And, given how many times you've insisted that myself and others are virgins you'll have to forgive me for laughing at your misplaced self righteousness.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, look at the trends over the last 20 years.  You are not gaining ground.  Feel free to stomp your foot and throw a fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, stupid, I'm not the one throwing hissy fits and talking like an adolescent fratboy to make a point. That would be you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whatever you say, ms. SLURP UP THE AFTERBIRTH.. Hey, maybe you can deny insisting that everyone else who disagrees with you must be a virgin next! Since you're the one making that feeble allegation, it's up to you to prove I implied that more than once. The afterbirth comment was directed solely at your frothing depictions. I'm not surprised you've now mentioned it twice. I knew you'd like that.
> 
> 
> ^ this is me.. laughing at you.
Click to expand...


No shit.^ Awww, now I'm gonna cry.


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> Again, who needs to hold a sign when voting will work just as well?  There is no dispute that abortions were not always legal.  Thus, they can become illegal again.  Save your mellodrama for teh coathanger excuses.
> 
> You could also say that you deal with murder in real life, too.  That a killer doesn't subscribe to some utopian concept that killing humans beings is against the law.  I don't really care how you rationalize killing babies OR murderous killers.  Call it utopian.  Call it a moral high ground.  If you want to act like a criminal savage then the rest of society will treat you like one.
> 
> ps, reality is not defined solely by how you think it should function.  Go ask the ghost of David Ben Gurion all about utopian ideas and practical solutions.  I'm sure you'll switch the foot you stood on when posting that giant pile of stupid.



I don't see anything savage about first trimester abortion. My first option would be to adopt, then keep. I don't find anything savage about aborting a child in the second or third trimester if hte mother's life is at risk, or there is definitive evidence that, when born, the baby will have a severe mental disabilities...


----------



## Shogun

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, stupid, I'm not the one throwing hissy fits and talking like an adolescent fratboy to make a point. That would be you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever you say, ms. SLURP UP THE AFTERBIRTH.. Hey, maybe you can deny insisting that everyone else who disagrees with you must be a virgin next! Since you're the one making that feeble allegation, it's up to you to prove I implied that more than once. The afterbirth comment was directed solely at your frothing depictions. I'm not surprised you've now mentioned it twice. I knew you'd like that.
> 
> 
> ^ this is me.. laughing at you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No shit.^ Awww, now I'm gonna cry.
Click to expand...


Hey look!  a "do as I say not as I do" bitch who thinks her own shit don't stink!

how NOVEL!





MaggieMae said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is also good for the environment. When there are more people than this planet can support we could well end up killing each other or dying of hunger. Maybe both.
> 
> Those who would have women endlessly pump out babies against their will, claiming it's because of their respect for life, only facilitate our possible extinction. It's quite perverse of them to call themselves pro life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What women are these? Because I've never heard of someone having a baby against her will.
> 
> You make the choice when you decide the risk of getting pregnant is worth it. That's when the choice over whether or not to create life is made.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Omg, I think you must have (a) never even had a sexual encounter, and/or (b) still relying on mumbo jumbo printed for young girls back in the 40's*.
Click to expand...


LOOK FAMILIAR?


----------



## Newby

MaggieMae said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was speaking about getting so caught up in things that you just can't say 'no', therefore you have to have the ability to do away with the consequences should there be any.  Why is it okay for the female to get so caught up in things that it totally takes priority over everything, inclusing the risk of getting pregnant.  But, now you're saying that the guy is untrustworthy if he is equally caught up in the moment and doesn't pull out?  Hypocrisy much?   It's YOUR body, as I've heard ad nauseum, you are responsible for what you put into it and how you allow it to get there, but now you want to conveniently shift all the responibility to the guy?  Are you ever responsible for anything?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again, where have I shifted *"ALL"* the responsibility to the guy? I made _one_ fucking comment on a very common occurrence. _ONE_. When a guy says "I'll pull out" and at 180 pounds is on top of a woman weighing 115 pounds, it's kinda hard to start SHOVING HIS FAT ASS OFF when it becomes obvious he has no intention of pulling out.
> 
> It ain't rocket science. (But it _IS_ the weight of gravity compounded by the frenzy of the moment.)
Click to expand...



Well, obviously you're very aware of the potential possibilities then whenever you take the guys word that he'll 'pull out', not to mention that any adult woman should know that's not remotely fail safe anyway.  So, why would you agree to do it if that was the only method of birth control available?  Again, just a total lack of repsonsibility.


----------



## Cecilie1200

elvis3577 said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parasite?? Baby, they're parasites for a while after they are born.. completely reliant on the parent(s)
> 
> Those fetuses and lumps of cell tissue are things that grow into viable adult humans.... not really just lumps of tissue... big difference
> 
> The key is that the fetus, the newborn, or any other young developing human life is indeed a separate life that is completely reliant on the parent.. there is no difference.. and they are all indeed lives, just in different stages of development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parasite is something that requires a host, so yes, technically it is a parasite. Just changing the meaning of the words doesn't make your point right. It's only genetic material, a lump of cells, until it reaches a certain stage, so it's not even a human.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.
Click to expand...


I always love obsolete arguments like Kitten's.  They serve to show how many people were out behind the boys' gym, smoking, during high school biology class.


----------



## Cecilie1200

jillian said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has a heartbeat.  If a friend of yours were unconscious on the floor, the first thing you would look for to determine if she was ALIVE?  a heartbeat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, wrong premise.
> 
> I have a heartbeat too. Who has greater rights? Me or an unborn potential human?
> 
> This isn't about visceral response. It's about when is governmental action appropriate.
Click to expand...


Well, since we seem to decide "who has greater rights" based solely on personal opinion, I'm going with the unborn human.  As for "potential human", I consider that to describe YOU much more accurately than it does him.  Believe me, if I were you, I wouldn't be encouraging anyone to terminate life based on the fact that it's worthless to other people, because you'd be in a whole world of trouble.


----------



## Cecilie1200

MaggieMae said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."
> 
> But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."
> 
> The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what?  So what.  NO matter how careful people are, accidents can happen.  I had a pregnancy scare with my boyfriend last year.  We'd been dating for about 6 months, and I missed a period.
> 
> Fortunately, I wasn't pregnant, but in that week, I thought about whether or not I could have a baby. At this point in my life, I couldn't.  I'm 43, with two kids, and not married.  I cannot afford the expense, the time off work, and I don't want to take time away from my kids to raise another baby.
> 
> I know for a fact that I'd have aborted.
> 
> And you know what?  That's well within my rights.  I'm more than an egg-incubator.  A fetus at 4 weeks is not a human infant.  They are not at all the same.  Sure that fetus contains the POTENTIAL to become a human infant, but it's not there.  It's a tiny cluster of cells.
> 
> I miscarried when I was 26.  I caught the baby in my hand in the bathroom, after hours of agony.  I was 12 weeks pregnant.
> 
> I've delivered 2 healthy full term babies.
> 
> They are not remotely the same.
> 
> If anyone doesn't give a crap about babies, it's GOD.  1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.  Most of the fetuses are too damaged or malformed to survive.  Most women who miscarry do so before they are even aware that they are pregnant.
> 
> Beyond that, if God cares so much, why does he allow millions of children - every single year - to starve to death?
> 
> Being pro-abortion during the first trimester is not the same as being pro-abortion for a late term abortion.
> 
> And, I get tired of your inflammatory, judgemental rhetoric, Allie.
> 
> You're a self-righteous jerk.   I'm tired of the fanatics controlling this discussion, as if they have a right to.
> 
> If you would never have an abortion, well-done you.  You don't get the right to make that decision for someone else.  Nor are you entitled to judge women who choose differently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good answers, Cat. And I can empathize with your two situations. I too miscarried (into the toilet). Lots and lots of blood because I was hemorrhaging. The whole bathroom looked like a scene from Saw. Then after 2 healthy children, by then adolescents, I thought I was pregnant again (oops, not by my husband ), and just the pure agony over the decision was enough to postpone my period for a full three months. When I finally saw an OBGYN, he said it's very common for a woman in her late 30's or early 40's to start missing periods, as the ovaries begin to shrink. So I wasn't pregnant after all. Needless to say, it was PARTY TIME!!
> 
> Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.
Click to expand...


Well, that'll teach you to think when you're so obviously unqualified.  Abortion actually enjoys its greatest support among men in their late teens and twenties, one assumes because they - like you - are self-absorbed narcissists who think of everything solely in terms of how it inconveniences them.   Women are more likely to think of a baby as . . . well, a baby.


----------



## Cecilie1200

MaggieMae said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> and your point?  you think anyone really wants to stop a multi million dollar business?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The libs certainly don't. Planned Parenthood is their mealticket.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You certainly don't show a lot of sympathy, seeing as you "work with" addicts, homeless, etc. If you have a job, or even volunteer, at a social worker's level, it seems to me you would need to provide your "clients" with *all* the options, including the *MANY* services of Planned Parenthood which is NOT solely frequented by "libs."
Click to expand...


It's amazing how much easier it is to be sympathetic when you have no actual contact with the objects of sympathy, and how quickly one becomes practical when confronted with the reality, rather than the starry-eyed fantasy of them.

As an example, I work as a process server, and recently started my own business doing this.  In order to drum up business quickly, I market to shelters for battered women.  I offer them a discount price, knowing that while their circumstances mean that they often need legal papers served, they also mean that they don't have a lot of money available.  Other servers I know have offered to serve their papers for free, as a charitable service.  They felt so sorry for these women.  They quickly stopped doing so when confronted with the reality of the situation, which is that you end up serving an order of protection on the same man every two months, as his battered wife leaves him, then returns to him, then leaves him, then returns.  You could go broke being sympathetic in such cases.


----------



## Cecilie1200

WiseOldMan said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's probably true. I understand the number used to be something like 80% of anti-choice activists were male.
> 
> It's a control thing... the religious right hasn't been able to stand it since the pill was invented.
> 
> And the proof of that? The same people who fight re-productive choice don't want birth control made readily available...... or the morning after pill...
> 
> and they preach "abstinence only"... which doesn't work. and is the sex version of fire and brimstone.
> 
> Then the harlots are supposed to take "responsibility' for their choice while the dads skip town and don't pay child support...
> 
> leaving single moms as the largest single group on welfare.
> 
> but the people who fight against your right to control what you do with your body also  don't want to pay for welfare either.... or for job training... or anything else that would make the lives of these women easier.
> 
> because it's all about exacting pennance for their transgressions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, well-said.
> 
> I am pro life (with certain exceptions, most of which were argued here), but most of what you said is spot on.  It's true:  Most conservatives don't really care about the fetus.  It's about the control.  They aren't a culture of life.  The Republican party is the culture of death.
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing the mind-reading act, Miss Cleo.  And the party of death is the party trying to save lives, as opposed to the one supporting the killing of millions of people a year?  Talk about your "1984"-style Newspeak.  Up is down, war is peace, life is death.  And I note the people applauding your "profound" bullshit.  Congrats.  Definitely the bunch I look for accolades from.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Newby said:


> So, it's morally okay to kill a 12 week old baby, but not a 40 week old baby?



Have you not read the writings of the noted and greatly admired (among leftists) bioethicist, Peter Singer?  He apparently thinks it should be okay to kill any baby whose parents don't think he is adding enough "total happiness" to their world.  What's shocking isn't that there's an outrageous nutball out there, but that leftists venerate him and give him a prestigious post at Princeton University.


----------



## Cecilie1200

MaggieMae said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said... it's about the other human life involved.. not about your vagina.. you want to concrete up your vagina, carve it out, or turn it into a party room... all well and good...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> OR, since you are the ultimate gatekeeper, enjoy the prerogative that your bra burning ancestors fought for and stop letting irresponsible decision turn your vagina into a trash receptacle at the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Has extreme vagina envy turned Shogun and Diamond Dave into a couple of very bitter bitches?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
Click to expand...


Well, I never heard those words, because I wasn't stupid enough to get to that point, anyway.  I never trusted the man to handle the birth control, and if I were a man, I wouldn't trust the woman to.  It's MY life and future, so it's not too much to expect ME to handle it.

On the other hand, I'd be a lot more leery as a man than as a woman in regards to the fact that once it happens, the guy is helpless and his future is completely out of his control.


----------



## Cecilie1200

MaggieMae said:


> Terry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell promotes abortion? I know of several women who have had abortions, and not one of them enjoyed the experience one iota...
> 
> 
> 
> Federal dollars asswipe!  If a woman wants an abortion then make it expensive like an elective surgery and they foot the bill not the fucking tax payers!  Maybe if it's expensive little molly and joey will take more precautions....you're a moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Explain how taxpayers foot the bill for abortions. Planned Parenthood may get some grant money, but that's funding already allocated for a myriad of similar community health programs.
> 
> Just because Roe v. Wade made abortion legal hardly means the procedure is automatically government funded. Hello?
Click to expand...


Man, you'll just believe any pap they feed you, won't you?  Do you ever plug in your brain and THINK about what you're saying?

"The government gives Planned Parenthood money, but it goes for other stuff."  Yes, and then the money that's freed up by using the government money goes for abortions and the promotion of abortion.  So how is that different from the government simply funding abortions directly?  When corporations try that sort of money-shifting shell games, leftists scream in outrage.  When abortion clinics do it, you just smile and say, "See?  The government funds OTHER STUFF, not abortions."

Give me a break.


----------



## Cecilie1200

MaggieMae said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me that both of them like to think they're unwilling co-participants in the whole pregnancy thing. How many women posting here, as younger and more fantasy prone romantics, ever heard the words breathlessly whispered _"I'll pull out--*I PROMISE!!"* _
> 
> Then they don't, leaving the girl to agonize for another month while the boy goes about his merry way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
Click to expand...


It actually scares me that you're wandering around out there, never knowing from one minute to the next whether or not you're going to have sex, apparently just randomly falling onto penises out of nowhere.  Sex doesn't come with a set of rules the two parties must discuss? Seriously?  You seriously become physically intimate with people without first having any conversation with them about it ahead of time?  Hell, I employ more planning just in having coffee with someone than you appear to in having sex with them.


----------



## Cecilie1200

MaggieMae said:


> Newby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a woman's fault if they trust a man but not a man's fault for being untrustworthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was speaking about getting so caught up in things that you just can't say 'no', therefore you have to have the ability to do away with the consequences should there be any.  Why is it okay for the female to get so caught up in things that it totally takes priority over everything, inclusing the risk of getting pregnant.  But, now you're saying that the guy is untrustworthy if he is equally caught up in the moment and doesn't pull out?  Hypocrisy much?   It's YOUR body, as I've heard ad nauseum, you are responsible for what you put into it and how you allow it to get there, but now you want to conveniently shift all the responibility to the guy?  Are you ever responsible for anything?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again, where have I shifted *"ALL"* the responsibility to the guy? I made _one_ fucking comment on a very common occurrence. _ONE_. When a guy says "I'll pull out" and at 180 pounds is on top of a woman weighing 115 pounds, it's kinda hard to start SHOVING HIS FAT ASS OFF when it becomes obvious he has no intention of pulling out.
> 
> It ain't rocket science. (But it _IS_ the weight of gravity compounded by the frenzy of the moment.)
Click to expand...


What kind of ignorant frigging bimbo waits until there's a 180-pound man on top of her to discuss birth control?  Frenzy of the moment?  Ain't no moment THAT frenzied.


----------



## Shogun

Cecilie1200 said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> and yet, by THAT point you've already failed in that little thing we call responsibility.  What man has ever forced his dick into you to the point of promising to pull out?  Hell, pregnancies ALREADY provide a net profit via child support.  How the fuck do you fathom that promising to pull out invalidates your CHOICE TO ALLOW THE PENIS INTO YOUR VAG IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE? Or, without condoms, spermacidal lube and a fucking diaphragm?  You are hardly a damsel in pregnant distress here.  Again, enjoy your PRE-ZIPPER choice.  If that means that you don't get to feed your self esteem through giving unprotected pussy away then, I guess, there are always mechanical options for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Good* SEX is often spontaneous, even though the female AND the male carry protection just in case. But it doesn't come with a set of rules that the two parties must first discuss and then ponder over the final decision. Ever had sex yourself? Obviously at least not until you found someone willing to get out the directions first. Your rant allows for NO margin of error when emotions and libidos peak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It actually scares me that you're wandering around out there, never knowing from one minute to the next whether or not you're going to have sex, apparently just randomly falling onto penises out of nowhere.  Sex doesn't come with a set of rules the two parties must discuss? Seriously?  You seriously become physically intimate with people without first having any conversation with them about it ahead of time?  Hell, I employ more planning just in having coffee with someone than you appear to in having sex with them.
Click to expand...


SPACE HERPES!


----------



## Neser Boha

Cecilie1200 said:


> What kind of ignorant frigging bimbo waits until there's a 180-pound man on top of her to discuss birth control?  Frenzy of the moment?  Ain't no moment THAT frenzied.



... said the frigid bitch...


----------



## Shogun

Neser Boha said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of ignorant frigging bimbo waits until there's a 180-pound man on top of her to discuss birth control?  Frenzy of the moment?  Ain't no moment THAT frenzied.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... said the frigid bitch...
Click to expand...


being responsible doesn't equal being frigid.  I bet you'd put a little more time into being responsible if you were about to jump out of a fucking plane.  Clearly, someone must have developed a cure for AIDS in Aurope given your disinterest in the topic of responsibility.


----------



## Neser Boha

Shogun said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of ignorant frigging bimbo waits until there's a 180-pound man on top of her to discuss birth control?  Frenzy of the moment?  Ain't no moment THAT frenzied.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... said the frigid bitch...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> being responsible doesn't equal being frigid.  I bet you'd put a little more time into being responsible if you were about to jump out of a fucking plane.  Clearly, someone must have developed a cure for AIDS in Aurope given your disinterest in the topic of responsibility.
Click to expand...


Yeah, it doesn't.  But that's not the point.

I'm sick of you people sitting on your fucking high horse acting like you've never made a mistake in your life... It's so fucking dishonest!  

As I said earlier - what I would or wouldn't do doesn't matter in this discussion - it's about what others CAN do.  What they SHOULD be able to do is to have a CHOICE.

And don't tell me that getting an abortion isn't a traumatic and haunting experience - a consequence of its own...  Either way - keeping the fetus or not - the ones being irresponsible will face consequences.

I just don't want a group of self-righteous dishonest fuckfaces dictating what one can or CANNOT LEGALY DO.  

Howgh.

And yeah... I dislike Cecilie and will always make offensive little remarks aimed at her.


----------



## Shogun

YOu have a choice....  BEFORE you fuck.  Just like you have a choice BEFORE you shott someone in the head with a .32.  I never said an abortion wasn't traumatic for the woman.. but, guess who ELSE it's pretty fucking traumatic for?  Thats right...  fetus jelly that would have othewise been a distinct human being.

MAKE A MISTAKE?  Buying a lemon car is a mistake.  Ordering sausage when you wanted bacon is a mistake.  SHOTTING SOMEONE IS THE FACE IS NOT A MISTAKE.  Neither is using what you seem to think is disposable life as an excuse for irresponsibility.  Seriously, in this decade AFTER the AIDS generation you might want to rethink your position before yuo become a public service announcement.  


And, I hate to break it to you.. but the very nature of laws themselves are exactly that: people telling what you can or cant do.  Next time someone cuts you off on the highway go shoot them in the face with a .32 and see what anyone cares about your right to choose.


dishonest, indeed.


----------



## DiamondDave

Shogun said:


> YOu have a choice....  BEFORE you fuck.  Just like you have a choice BEFORE you shott someone in the head with a .32.  I never said an abortion wasn't traumatic for the woman.. but, guess who ELSE it's pretty fucking traumatic for?  Thats right...  fetus jelly that would have othewise been a distinct human being.
> 
> MAKE A MISTAKE?  Buying a lemon car is a mistake.  Ordering sausage when you wanted bacon is a mistake.  SHOTTING SOMEONE IS THE FACE IS NOT A MISTAKE.  Neither is using what you seem to think is disposable life as an excuse for irresponsibility.  Seriously, in this decade AFTER the AIDS generation you might want to rethink your position before yuo become a public service announcement.
> 
> 
> And, I hate to break it to you.. but the very nature of laws themselves are exactly that: people telling what you can or cant do.  Next time someone cuts you off on the highway go shoot them in the face with a .32 and see what anyone cares about your right to choose.
> 
> 
> dishonest, indeed.



Precisely, shog... that is the basis of having laws... to legally set down what you can and cannot do in society

And lord knows what this ignorant euro cannot understand is that we have have, and will continue to, make mistakes.. the key is people who take responsibility for their mistakes and act right with the consequences to those mistakes...


----------



## AllieBaba

And establishing a norm which establishes guidelines to help prevent those mistakes.

If we just lower the standards everytime someone makes a mistake, we'd be savages. People make mistakes and murder people. Well then, murder should be legal. People make mistakes and drive drunk. Legalize drinking and driving! People make mistakes and hit their kids. It should no longer be illegal, then!

Which is exactly where we're headed.


----------



## Anguille

Shogun said:


> ahh yes.. when push comes to shove.. blame some testicles.


Do you have a persecution complex or are you just resorting to intentionally misinterpreting what I said in order to give yourself the illusion of having made a point?


----------



## Shogun

Anguille said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> ahh yes.. when push comes to shove.. blame some testicles.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a persecution complex or are you just resorting to intentionally misinterpreting what I said in order to give yourself the illusion of having made a point?
Click to expand...


You made a point beyond deflecting blame at a pair of testicles?  I guess I was too busy reading the tampon box to notice.


----------



## We Are They

Allie, admit it, you're pro-no choice. We should force everyone to have their babies? That's laughable.


----------



## jeffrockit

DavidS said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have no idea what people's situations are or how they handle them. Sometimes it's better to not be born than to be born into terrible situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that circumstance should have been thought about before unprotected sex. If you are not stable enough to have a child, what makes you stable to have the relationship that results in a pregnancy?
Click to expand...


----------



## jeffrockit

ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is one of those issues where commonsense loses out.
> 
> We have a president who wants to "just get along" and agree to disagree on abortion when he is in favor of letting minors obtain abortions without parental notification or consent. who disagrees with providing medical care for those fetuses that happen to survive late term abortion procedures thereby denying what all of us would call a living breathing child life saving medical care.
> 
> minors cannot get a tattoo, cannot vote etc and parents are more often than not held responsible for the misdeeds of their minor children but we have a government that favors handing out birth control pills to 8th graders and supports providing invasive, potentially dangerous surgical procedures to minors with absolutely no parental notification or consent all for the sake of abortion rights.
> 
> Kids can't even bring Advil to school for fear of being strip searched and expelled but birth control and abortion are provided carte blanche.
> 
> Women can abandon children with no legal repercussions under safe haven laws but a child surviving a late term abortion is left to suffer and die without medical care.
> 
> Does no one see the problem here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely -- the biggest of which is the government. Let people, including parents and their children, in consultation with their own medical professionals handle their own problems/decisions.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately by having an unwanted pregnancy, they have proven that they can't make the right decisions. Some people are just too stupid to to use contraception.


----------



## AllieBaba

We Are They said:


> Allie, admit it, you're pro-no choice. We should force everyone to have their babies? That's laughable.



Nobody forces them to have babies, just as nobody forced them to have sex. They made the choice when they had sex...and they have to deal with the consequences. Murder is not an acceptable "out" for any situation.


----------



## We Are They

AllieBaba said:


> We Are They said:
> 
> 
> 
> Allie, admit it, you're pro-no choice. We should force everyone to have their babies? That's laughable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They made the choice when they had sex...and they have to deal with the consequences. Murder is not an acceptable "out" for any situation.
Click to expand...


So you're forcing people to have babies, like I said, the pro-no choice side. You should move to Saudi Arabia and join their morality police, because unfortunately for you, we still live in a free country.


----------



## LOki

MountainMan said:


> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.



Really? This is hardly surprising considering that being pro-life is consistent with being pro-choice.

Just as being anti-choice is consistent with being anti-life.


----------



## sealybobo

LOki said:


> MountainMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion
> 
> The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? This is hardly surprising considering that being pro-life is consistent with being pro-choice.
> 
> Just as being anti-choice is consistent with being anti-life.
Click to expand...


Most people I've talked to who think they are pro life, if asked the right questions, turn out to be pro choice.

Personally they are pro life but they don't want the government telling them they don't have a choice.  

And most pro lifers will/would get an abortion if the circumstances were right.  Its called being a hypocrite.


----------

