# Florida Stopped Gun Background Checks For A Year After Official Couldn’t Log In



## Lakhota (Jun 8, 2018)

*The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*

For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.

The 2017 document, which was first reported on Friday by the Tampa Bay Times, revealed that starting in February 2016, the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services stopped using an FBI crime database because an employee in charge of background checks could not log in to the system.

The database, called the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, is used by state officials to keep track of applicants who want to carry guns and who may also have a criminal history or documented mental health issues in other states.

The issue was not corrected until March 2017, according to the investigation, which was conducted by the state agriculture department’s Office of Inspector General.

Record requests by the Tampa Bay Times revealed the negligence, with the final state investigation revealing that it was employee Lisa Wilde who had a “login issue” with the database but never followed up to get it fixed.

Wilde told investigators that she “neglected to do it for almost a year.” It was ultimately more than a year.

“I dropped the ball ― I know I did that, I should have been doing it and I didn’t,” Wilde said.

As the Times points out, tens of thousands of applications went unchecked during that period, in a state that saw a surge of requests to get weapon permits following the June 2016 Pulse nightclub shooting that left 50 people dead. The state saw horror again in February of this year when 17 people were gunned down at a high school in Parkland, Florida.

When questioned by investigators, Wilde looked “bewildered, and stated: I had a login issue and never followed up,” the investigative report says.

State Agriculture Commissioner Adam Putnam, a Republican now running for governor, bragged in 2012 that under his leadership, the process of getting a concealed permit application fell from 12 weeks to 35 days.

Wilde is now out of a job, the Tampa Bay Times reports.

*Florida Stopped Gun Background Checks For A Year After Official Couldn’t Log In*

*Adam Putnam’s office stopped concealed weapons background checks for a year because it couldn’t log in*

Such incompetence is unbelievable!  What do you think?


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## JBond (Jun 8, 2018)

State employees have no incentive to do better. We have explained this to you over and over.


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## Lakhota (Jun 8, 2018)

Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.


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## Wyatt earp (Jun 8, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.




Why? 


I don't hear of an increase of murders in floridia..


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## westwall (Jun 8, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...









Of course it is.  And that is the sort of people you want to have the guns.  So what does that make you?


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## Polishprince (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.




Aw, rubbish.  She isn't the first government employee to f-k up, and won't be the last.    We had a state department official who passing around confidential information with a personal server, and nothing  happened to her. 

This is small potatoes, and this Wilde broad didn't profit at all by this, it was a pure f-k up.


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## Geaux4it (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.


For what?

-Geaux


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## Frankeneinstein (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> Such incompetence is unbelievable! What do you think?


I think you should post one of your old polls about trump's popularity, it'll be nice for ya to take a stroll down memory lane


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## IsaacNewton (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...




This is a *state government* that can't figure out how to redo a password. No one need wonder how Russia is hacking into our systems.


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## Flash (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *Th*
> 
> Such incompetence is unbelievable!  What do you think?



Living in Florida we deal with State workers all the time.  They are mostly lazy minorities that are useless.  Affirmative action hiring sucks.


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## Frankeneinstein (Jun 9, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> No one need wonder how Russia is hacking into our systems.


Who said we do?


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## protectionist (Jun 9, 2018)

Polishprince said:


> Aw, rubbish.  She isn't the first government employee to f-k up, and won't be the last.    We had a state department official who passing around confidential information with a personal server, and nothing  happened to her.
> 
> This is small potatoes, and this Wilde broad didn't profit at all by this, it was a pure f-k up.


Prosecute her when Hillary Clinton gets prosecuted.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...


It’s also arrogance and contempt for the law.


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## protectionist (Jun 9, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> This is a *state government* that can't figure out how to redo a password. No one need wonder how Russia is hacking into our systems.


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## protectionist (Jun 9, 2018)

Due to the assinine PROMiSE Program, thousands of criminal kids have been able to buy guns in Florida (ex. Nicholas Cruz), with or without this woman's negligence.  I'm still not sure if this nutty thing still exists or not.

One would think that after the Parkland massacre, the PROMISE Program would have been abolished, but with liberals running things, who knows ?  Remember Michael Dukakis and Willie Horton ?


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## whitehall (Jun 9, 2018)

The Fla. Dept of agriculture? The people who care for orange trees are also responsible for concealed weapons permits?


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## westwall (Jun 9, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> Lakhota said:
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> > *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> ...








Indeed.  It seems we have stories like this all of the time.  ALL of the time.  And these are the very seem people who you think are the only ones qualified to have guns.  Which makes you a what?


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## kaz (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...



Background checks as they currently work are useless


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## PredFan (Jun 9, 2018)

I smell bull shit. I have a friend who owns a gun shop. I’ll check with him but I’ll bet that each FFL holder who does checks can see almost immediately if the purchaser has a criminal record. No state official needed.


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## kaz (Jun 9, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Lakhota said:
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> > *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> ...



Let's have a national database that tells State governments whether you're entitled to free speech or not.  What do you think?


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...



Maybe they should pass a law to require the employee to remember their password...

Now let me ask you this and please think clearly and if the employee fails to do their job then what good was it to have that employee and also what good would it do to pass more laws when people refuse to enforce them or better yet do their damn job!?!


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## kaz (Jun 9, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> Lakhota said:
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> > *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> ...



Now you don't like Russia again?  I can't keep track.  You were just in favor of them bribing Hillary for 20% of US uranium reserves because they weren't a threat.  Now they are again?  

You just flip flop and fly ...


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## OldLady (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...


This kind of stuff happens everywhere, which is why the Fix NICS bill was so important.  When I was a caseworker, we routinely ran criminal background checks on clients.  On more than one occasion, when I interviewed them and asked about any criminal history, they were telling me about arrests and incarcerations that were not on the background checks from the State reporting authority.
Come to find out, about a third of courts weren't bothering to report to the state for chunks of time, up to a year or more.  I didn't know who to complain to--as a state employee, I think I would have been canned, tarred and feathered if I'd gone public.  My supervisor told me to report those incidents as they arose to the reporting agency and that was it.   Fixed a handful while how many weren't included on the background checks?
That's all before it would even get to NICS.


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## westwall (Jun 9, 2018)

kaz said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
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Oh!  Absolutely!  Then we need to set one up to check if you are entitled to vote too.  And how about one to check on whether or not you really can tell that soldier that he can't take over your master bedroom like he claims he can.  Yeppers, them things called Rights are grossly overstated!


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.


“To be clear, a criminal background investigation was completed on every single application,” Putnam said. “Upon discovery of this former employee’s negligence in not conducting the further review required on 365 applications, we immediately completed full background checks on those 365 applications, which resulted in 291 revocations.” _ibid_

291 prohibited persons not eligible for a concealed weapon license are also 291 prohibited persons not eligible to possess firearms, where we can assume many of those prohibited persons indeed possess firearms.


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Jun 9, 2018)

westwall said:


> kaz said:
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Well Sir that paper is just that a piece of paper and damn your rights when it come to my wish to live with the false sense of safety that our government can never provide!

Give me the false sense of safety over my freedom of choice any day...

( Stop laughing and imagine me saying that with a deep southern accent!!! )


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## debbiedowner (Jun 9, 2018)

Polishprince said:


> Lakhota said:
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> > Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.
> ...



It is small potatoes but do you agree the head of Dept of Ag Putnam being the head man should have had a grasp on this? Should he continue to run for Governor?


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## debbiedowner (Jun 9, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Lakhota said:
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> > Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.
> ...



He should have know earlier. He is in charge.


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## OldLady (Jun 9, 2018)

debbiedowner said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
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How would he know what a state employee buried in a cubicle somewhere was doing?   Maybe they'll start checking from now on, though.


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## whitehall (Jun 9, 2018)

Something doesn't sound right. Fingerprints might be sent to the FBI crime data base but an instant name check in most states relies on state records with proof of residency. I don't recall a rash of shootings in Florida by concealed carry permit holders and the system has been corrected so what's the problemo?


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## kaz (Jun 9, 2018)

westwall said:


> kaz said:
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Voting, I like it.  Voting isn't even a Constitutional right like owning a gun is.  That's a no brainer, a national database to say whether you're authorized to vote or not.

Clayton's in, he likes national databases to determine whether or not the Feds recognize a right or not


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## IsaacNewton (Jun 9, 2018)

kaz said:


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You are one misguided person. You can't keep things straight.


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## kaz (Jun 9, 2018)

Bruce_T_Laney said:


> westwall said:
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With a lot of bluster and bravado


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## kaz (Jun 9, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> kaz said:
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I didn't mean to make you cry, gay guy.  Calm down.

So you're saying that the Russians were a threat and Hillary should be investigated for selling them the uranium?

Try to calm down, gay boy.  Your lip is still quivering


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...




Yep....it is what you should expect from the Government....yet you are the one who keeps wanting to give them more and more power.....

And even with this......you have no gun control point.

Those people with those permits.....applied for the permit......they followed the law.  Next, if they aren't allowed to have those permits, once they are stopped by the police at traffic stops, they will have their records run, and if they are prohibitted from having the gun on their hip, those cops will deal with it...no need for the gun permit in the first place.

Many states already have Constitutional Carry, which means if you aren't a felon, you can carry a gun without a permit.....

And more Truth.....homicide in Florida went down, not up as this was going on...even as those Floridians got their permits without background checks...showing that background checks don't stop criminals, and don't cause good people to become criminals...

Homicide numbers down in 2017, but difficult cases abounded

But there were fewer homicides throughout the Orlando area in 2017 than in 2016, records show.

Miami was once a murder capital. The gunfire deaths this year tell a new story

Over the four-day July 4 weekend, Chicago, which has roughly the same population as Miami-Dade County’s 2.6 million, was plagued by more than 100 shootings and 14 homicides.

Number of shooting deaths in Miami-Dade over the same weekend: Zero.

Homicides in unincorporated Miami-Dade, the county’s central core that includes several of the highest-crime neighborhoods, compare reasonably well with other regions with similar populations. With a population of 1.2 million, unincorporated Miami-Dade had 54 homicides during the first six months of this year, county police records show.

So far this year in Philadelphia, which has a similar population, there have been 122 homicides. Jacksonville, which has about two-thirds the population of unincorporated Miami-Dade, has seen 52 homicides so far this year. Major metro regions with better per capita crime rates than Miami-Dade include Denver and San Francisco.


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...




Chicago v Miami-Dade...

Chicago has extreme gun control and doesn't have one gun store or shooting range in the city limits........permits are not a big deal when the one with the gun is a law abiding citizen...

Over the four-day July 4 weekend, Chicago, which has roughly the same population as Miami-Dade County’s 2.6 million, was plagued by more than 100 shootings and 14 homicides.

Number of shooting deaths in Miami-Dade over the same weekend: Zero.

Homicides in unincorporated Miami-Dade, the county’s central core that includes several of the highest-crime neighborhoods, compare reasonably well with other regions with similar populations. With a population of 1.2 million, unincorporated Miami-Dade had 54 homicides during the first six months of this year, county police records show.

So far this year in Philadelphia, which has a similar population, there have been 122 homicides. Jacksonville, which has about two-thirds the population of unincorporated Miami-Dade, has seen 52 homicides so far this year. Major metro regions with better per capita crime rates than Miami-Dade include Denver and San Francisco.


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

kaz said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
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How about background checks before you are allowed to by an electronic device, to make sure convicted computer criminals and child exploiters  can't buy them........?  Let's do the same for use of public library computers too....see how they like that...


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

OldLady said:


> Lakhota said:
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> > *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
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Wow....you missed it.

If you fix NICS, and the woman doesn't do the background check because she forgot her password....what good was Fix NICS?  Since the background check wasn't done?

And as has been pointed out.....you guys want these people to control our guns....


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Lakhota said:
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> > Lisa Wilde lost her job - but she should also be prosecuted.
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Wrong....those are initial denials.....and this is why I love the internet......

False positives from the NICs background check system which is wha the majority of first denials are.....not criminals who are going through a legal process to get a gun....

Some more examples of false positives in the NICS background check system - Crime Prevention Research Center

Many people have contacted us about problems that they have faced with NICS background checks, but we have only very recently started keeping track of some cases. We have previously discussed cases of mistakes by the NICS system in mistakenly denying people the ability to purchase guns.

Ronnie Coleman, a Virginia resident, was denied being able to buy a gun in October 2012 because another person from his hometown in Texas had a name and birthdate that were considered “close enough” to his own and had a felony conviction. Coleman was advised to get a Unique Personal Identification Number from the NICS system to prevent this confusion in the future.

Frank Wise from Jacksonville Beach, Florida ran into two problems.

— In the 1990s, he was convicted of check fraud after his employer went bankrupt. When his paycheck bounced, two checks he sent to his mortgage company also bounced. Nearly 20 years later, Mr. Wise was able to get his record cleared, but that information wasn’t entered into the background check system for three years. Getting this fixed cost him $3,600 in legal fees.

— He was also stopped from buying a gun in until 2016 because a Kentucky resident who, according to Wise’s lawyer, was a felon and had a “very similar name and the same or similar birthdate.”

We have recently come across five more examples of mistaken denials by the NICS system (detailed information on these next five cases is available here).

Daniel A. Umbert (“Umbert”) is an adult male citizen of the State of Florida and is a duly licensed attorney by the State Bar of Florida.  Purchase attempted on August 1, 2017.

Troy Brent Chodosh “(Chodosh”) is an adult male citizen of the State of Texas.  Purchase attempted on April 17, 2017.

Errol Alexander Eaton (“Eaton”) is an adult male citizen of the State of Mississippi.  Purchase attempted in May 2018.

Chase W. Bickel (“Bickel”) is an adult male citizen of the State of Indiana.

Gary James LeComte (“LeComte”) is an adult male citizen of the State of Idaho.  Transfer attempted in June 2015.


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

OldLady said:


> debbiedowner said:
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Yes....until the person who is supposed to be checking on the other employees fails to check on the other employees........


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## OldLady (Jun 9, 2018)

2aguy said:


> OldLady said:
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I think you're the one who is "missing it," Guy.   Garbage in, garbage out.  If the reports can't be trusted to be accurate, the background check isn't complete, is it?  Can cause a public safety issue if the wrong person gets a weapon?  Don't forget the military's SOP not to report domestic violence convictions to NICS.  Has that actually been "fixed?"  That story went dark real fast and if anyone is trying to follow up on it, I'm sure they're buried in bureaucratic foot dragging and will be for years.

Yes, it was a little different example from the OP's. But they're related and actually mine is worse.


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## OldLady (Jun 9, 2018)

2aguy said:


> OldLady said:
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True.  A supervisor somewhere has egg on his/her face.


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
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She didn't do the background check...so it doesn't matter if NICS is fixed if she isn't even doing the work.....


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
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The truth is....it doesn't matter.......permits to carry a gun are to generate revenue, and to screw over law abiding gun owners.  

We don't need permits......as I already pointed out....if you are stopped by police, and they run your name, they will know if you are a criminal, and if you have a gun, they can already arrest you....no permit is needed to do this, they can already do it.....

If you commit a crime with a gun, it doesn't matter if you have a permit or not...so again, you can already be arrested for this.....

This is why many states do not require a permit...they are pointless and unnecessary....


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## OldLady (Jun 9, 2018)

2aguy said:


> OldLady said:
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_.if you are stopped by police, and they run your name, they will know if you are a criminal,_
Not if the courts didn't report.  If it is not on the data base, no, the cops won't know either.   That is why courts need to be compelled to report and to keep those reports up to date.  Background checks are no good without accurate information.


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## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2018)

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
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You don't understand....if you are a felon, you will be in the system that the police use.....if you have a gun on you and you are a felon, they will arrest you....no need for a permit for this to happen.  They are not the same system...


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## Papageorgio (Jun 9, 2018)

Obviously this woman was incompetent and should have been fired. She was lazy and it would have taken a few minutes to correct the issue. I’m not sure what you could prosecute her for but the whole situation shows us how messed up the work force is and how minimum wage jobs could be paying people much more than they are worth. 

The state of Florida needs to make sure safeguards are put into place to prevent this from ever happening again.


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## OldLady (Jun 9, 2018)

2aguy said:


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What I am talking about WAS the police system.  Now do YOU understand?


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## Rustic (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...


The Federal government has always been incompetent... what else would you expect?


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## miketx (Jun 9, 2018)

Lakhota said:


> *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> 
> For over a year, Florida allowed citizens to obtain concealed weapon permits without a background check because an employee couldn’t log in to a national database that tracked people deemed unfit to own weapons in other states, a previously unreported government investigation has revealed.
> 
> ...


I think you are full of shit. The FBI does those back ground checks.


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## Polishprince (Jun 9, 2018)

debbiedowner said:


> It is small potatoes but do you agree the head of Dept of Ag Putnam being the head man should have had a grasp on this? Should he continue to run for Governor?



Its a big state, with many thousands of staff, I'm not sure that its realistic to expect that kind of detailed supervision.   Sort of like suggesting that the President should be blamed if a mailman is screwing up.


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## protectionist (Jun 9, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> 291 prohibited persons not eligible for a concealed weapon license are also 291 prohibited persons not eligible to possess firearms, where we can assume many of those prohibited persons indeed possess firearms.


Ditto with those protected by Obama's PROMISE Program. One example ? >> Nicolas Cruz.


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## Defiant1 (Jun 9, 2018)

Of course libtards think this is a big deal.
They think it means there are people with guns who shouldn't have guns.
It only means the people who were eventually denied can't carry concealed.
In Florida you don't need a concealed carry license to carry a loaded weapon in your vehicle.
In Florida you don't need a license to own a weapon.


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## Flash (Jun 9, 2018)

whitehall said:


> The Fla. Dept of agriculture? The people who care for orange trees are also responsible for concealed weapons permits?



All licensing is administrated by that department.  They had to put it somewhere.

The problem is that the state hires incompetent minorities.  They screw up everything.  I am sure it is the same in other states.

Diversity and affirmative action in government hiring produces incompetent workers.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 9, 2018)

westwall said:


> Of course it is. And that is the sort of people you want to have the guns. So what does that make you?



Someone who is less worried about bureaucratic incompetence than crazy people with guns?


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## westwall (Jun 9, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
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> > Of course it is. And that is the sort of people you want to have the guns. So what does that make you?
> ...







Bureaucratic incompetence leads to the "official" people with guns, doing very bad things.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2018)

westwall said:


> Bureaucratic incompetence leads to the "official" people with guns, doing very bad things.



sure it does, buddy.  

Hey, true story. When government do horrible things, it's usually with the overwhelming support of it's people, who usually don't do anything about it until after it happens.  

For instance, despite what you hear from NRA propaganda, German citizens had lots of privately owned guns, and the Nazi actually repealed the gun laws the Weimar Republic had passed. 

And not a one of those Good Germans ran out with his gun and stopped the Gestapo from taking their Jewish neighbors away.  Those "Good Germans" fought to the last old man and little boy to defend Hitler. 

So, no, I'm not going to say, "Let's let all the crazy people have guns because the government might do something bad some day, maybe!" 

Because that would be stupid.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2018)

protectionist said:


> Ditto with those protected by Obama's PROMISE Program. One example ? >> Nicolas Cruz.



who was never convicted of a crime?


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## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
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> > Bureaucratic incompetence leads to the "official" people with guns, doing very bad things.
> ...



And you lie, again....the socialists in Germany repealed gun laws for Party members....not for Jews and the political enemies of the party.... you know the ones the nazis sent to the gas chambers.... you guys always think you can lie about that.....and the nazis used the registration lists created by the German government in the 1920s.....  

When you have no guns, and government goons come for your neighbor, and your neighbor goes quietly because they can't resist..... there is nothing you can do.... because you are unarmed......you dipshit...... so unarmed people learn to keep their heads down and to hope they aren't next....which is why you never, ever give up your guns so you don't reach the point where goons of a political party have free reign to target people with violence.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2018)

2aguy said:


> And you lie, again....the socialists in Germany repealed gun laws for Party members....not for Jews and the political enemies of the party...



again, Germany only had 500,000 Jews out of a population of 80 million.  

It wasn't that big of a deal. 

The other 79,500,000 Germans who weren't Jews could have all the guns they wanted.  and not a fucking one of them stepped out and tried to stop the Gestapo from taking Goldstein to the camps they all pretended not to know about after the war. 




2aguy said:


> you know the ones the nazis sent to the gas chambers.... you guys always think you can lie about that....



Here's the problem... most of them were fine with getting rid of the Jews...  They were happy to see them go.  



2aguy said:


> When you have no guns, and government goons come for your neighbor, and your neighbor goes quietly because they can't resist..... there is nothing you can do....



Actually, that happens when you have guns, too.  In fact, when the ATF came by for David Koresh or Randy Weaver, most of their neighbors were happy to see these nuts gotten out of their neighborhoods.  

You see, the Government has tanks and bombers and artillery... no matter how much you compensate for your...er.. shortcomings, the government's will always, always, always be bigger.


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## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And you lie, again....the socialists in Germany repealed gun laws for Party members....not for Jews and the political enemies of the party...
> ...




Yes....... the socialists confiscated guns from everyone but party members, who beat up unarmed people and destroyed businesses, which aided their rise to power...... you can't do that here because you show up to smack people down, you get shot.....   and if guns aren't a problem, then why did the nazis feel compelled to disarm the people they then went on to mass murder.....?

And, of course, the one country that wasn't invaded by the Germans, when all the other European countries were conquered...was Switzerland...where they had 435,000 armed civilians, armed with military rifles, with the determination to resist any invasion by the German socialists...while every other country had disarmed their civilians.....who were then helpless when their weak and incompetent militaries were defeated.....and then the German socialists sent the people of those European countries to the gas chambers.....

Mass murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing only happen to unarmed people...


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## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Yes....... the socialists confiscated guns from everyone but party members, who beat up unarmed people and destroyed businesses, which aided their rise to power......



Um, buddy, most average Germans owned guns.  In fact, the first thing the allies had to do after VE day was go house to house and collect all the guns because too many Germans hadn't realized they had lost. 



2aguy said:


> And, of course, the one country that wasn't invaded by the Germans, when all the other European countries were conquered...was Switzerland...



They also didn't invade Sweden, Spain, Portugal, England, Turkey, Monoco, Andorra... I'm sure there are others I'm missing.  

They also didn't invade Italy, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Finland... all those countries threw in with them and had alliances.  

The main reason why the Swiss weren't invaded?  Because they were doing all the banking for both sides in the war.  Why would you burn down your bank? 



2aguy said:


> and if guns aren't a problem, then why did the nazis feel compelled to disarm the people they then went on to mass murder.....?



They didn't.  They just murdered the ones they wanted to murder, usually with their neighbors cheering them on.  

Folks in the Warsaw ghetto sat on their guns for five years without taking on the Germans until they heard the Red Army was close... and then they rose up and killed a whopping 19 Germans before 50,000 of them were killed. 

Again, not really keen to tolerate 33,000 gun deaths a year because you are afraid of something that "might" happen.


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## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes....... the socialists confiscated guns from everyone but party members, who beat up unarmed people and destroyed businesses, which aided their rise to power......
> ...




You aren't very bright.......the Warsaw ghetto held of the Germans with a few pistols and molotov cocktails, and had they had more guns...had the civilians in Europe had more guns, the German socialists could never have conquered all of that territory, they couldn't have held it......

You have no understanding of history...or anything else....

THE SWISS WERE PREPARED TO FIGHT FACISM TO THE BITTER END | FRONTLINE | PBS



That is why the Nazis despised Switzerland. Joseph Goebbels called Switzerland "this stinking little state" where "sentiment has turned very much against us." Adolf Hitler decided that "all the rubbish of small nations still existing in Europe must be liquidated," even if it meant he would later "be attacked as the 'Butcher of the Swiss.'"



The 1940 Nazi invasion plan, Operation Tannenbaum, was not executed, and SS Oberst Hermann Bohme's 1943 memorandum warned that an invasion of Switzerland would be too costly because every man was armed and trained to shoot. This did not stop the Gestapo from preparing lists of Swiss to be liquidated once the Nazis overran the country.



The other European nations were easily toppled and had little means to wage a partisan war against the occupation. Once their standing armies were defeated, the governments capitulated and the populaces were defenseless.



*Only in Switzerland was the entire populace armed and prepared to wage a relentless guerrilla war against an invader. When the war began in 1939, Switzerland mobilized 435,000 citizen soldiers out of a population of 4.2 million. *

Production figures for Swiss service rifles, which had firepower equal to those of the Germans, demonstrate an ample supply of small arms. Swiss militiamen were instructed to disregard any alleged "official" surrender as enemy propaganda and, if necessary, to fight individually. This meant that a nation of sharpshooters would be sniping at German soldiers at long ranges from every mountain.



While neutral, Switzerland was prepared to fight a Nazi invasion to the end. The celebrated Swiss Gen. Henri Guisan developed the strategy known as defense du reduit--an initial opposition followed by a retreat into the Alps, where a relentless war to the death would be waged. Most Swiss strongly opposed Nazism. Death sentences were issued for fifth-column activities, and proclamations against anti-Semitism were passed at various official levels. There was no Holocaust on Swiss soil, something that can not be said for France, the Netherlands, Poland or most of Europe.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2018)

2aguy said:


> You aren't very bright.......the Warsaw ghetto held of the Germans with a few pistols and molotov cocktails, and had they had more guns...had the civilians in Europe had more guns, the German socialists could never have conquered all of that territory, they couldn't have held it......



Most of the countries Germany conquered had well trained professional armies... and they STILL lost.  



2aguy said:


> You have no understanding of history...or anything else....



Shhhh... you'd better tell UIC.. They gave me a degree in history.  

Here's the reality.   Switzerland wasn't invaded because they did EVERYTHING the Nazis wanted.  They denied the allies use of their airspace, they laundered the gold Germany was extracting from the fillings of dead jews.   There was no good reason to invade them.


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## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > You aren't very bright.......the Warsaw ghetto held of the Germans with a few pistols and molotov cocktails, and had they had more guns...had the civilians in Europe had more guns, the German socialists could never have conquered all of that territory, they couldn't have held it......
> ...




No.....after World War 1 the rest of the countries of Europe allowed their militaries to decline.......read your history.......

You really think that the nazis were going to allow Switzerland to remain free and uncontrolled?  And that if they weren't ready to fight with deep reserves of armed civilians that the Germans would have left them alone?  You really are stupid.....


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## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2018)

2aguy said:


> No.....after World War 1 the rest of the countries of Europe allowed their militaries to decline.......read your history.......



I have... that's kind of a misrepresentation...   The fact is, the Allies did maintain pretty effective militaries, they just spent on the wrong priorities. 



2aguy said:


> You really think that the nazis were going to allow Switzerland to remain free and uncontrolled? And that if they weren't ready to fight with deep reserves of armed civilians that the Germans would have left them alone? You really are stupid.....



I think the Germans didn't give a fuck about Switzerland.  Germany's goal was to obtain territory for Lebensraum (Living Room), and all Switzerland had was mountains.  The Lebensraum was in the east, and that's where they went.


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## westwall (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And you lie, again....the socialists in Germany repealed gun laws for Party members....not for Jews and the political enemies of the party...
> ...









No, they couldn't.  The ONLY people in Germany who could get firearms were NAZI PARTY MEMBERS who made up less than 10% of the population.  There were exceptions made for Jaegers (hunters) because they were associated with the hunting associations that goering was the leader of, but other than them, if you weren't a Party member, you were shit outa luck.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2018)

westwall said:


> No, they couldn't. The ONLY people in Germany who could get firearms were NAZI PARTY MEMBERS who made up less than 10% of the population.



Actually, you need to do some research into German gun laws prior to WWII.  

Fact-checking Ben Carson's claim that gun control laws allowed the Nazis to carry out Holocaust

As the Nazi Party rose to power in Germany, it inherited a 1928 gun registration law that had replaced a total ban on gun ownership imposed on a defeated Germany after World War I. The 1928 law created a permit system to own and sell firearms and ammunition.

"But this order was followed quite rarely, so that largely, only newly bought weapons became registered," said Dagmar Ellerbrock, an expert on German gun policies at the Dresden Technical University. "At that time, most men, and many women, still owned the weapons they acquired before or during the first World War."

When they came to power, the Nazis used whatever gun records they had to seize weapons from their enemies, but Ellerbock told us the files included very few of the firearms in circulation.

"In my records, I found many Jews who well into the late 1930s possessed guns," Ellerbock told us.

The Nazis adopted a new gun law in 1938. According to an analysis by Bernard Harcourt, a professor at Columbia University School of Law, it loosened gun ownership rules in several ways.

It deregulated the buying and selling of rifles, shotguns and ammunition. It made handguns easier to own by allowing anyone with a hunting license to buy, sell or carry one at any time. (You didn’t need to be hunting.) It also extended the permit period from one year to three and gave local officials more discretion in letting people under 18 get a gun.


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## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > No, they couldn't. The ONLY people in Germany who could get firearms were NAZI PARTY MEMBERS who made up less than 10% of the population.
> ...




Wrong.....

You morons always ignore the fact...the fact, that the nazi party disarmed Jews and political enemies......


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## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > No, they couldn't. The ONLY people in Germany who could get firearms were NAZI PARTY MEMBERS who made up less than 10% of the population.
> ...




Moron.... you need to read your own link....

The regulations to implement this law, rather than the law itself, did impose new limits on one group: Jews.

On Nov. 11, 1938, the German minister of the interior issued "Regulations Against Jews Possession of Weapons." Not only were Jews forbidden to own guns and ammunition, they couldn’t own "truncheons or stabbing weapons."

*In addition to the restrictions, Ellerbrock said the Nazis had already been raiding Jewish homes and seizing weapons.*


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## Darkwind (Jun 10, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> > *The employee responsible said she couldn’t remember her information to log in to a national database that keeps track of criminals.*
> ...


Now that is fucking hilarious.!!!


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## protectionist (Jun 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> who was never convicted of a crime?


My point exactly.  If he wasn't, that was *because of the PROMISE Program*.  Get it ?


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## protectionist (Jun 11, 2018)

PredFan said:


> I smell bull shit. I have a friend who owns a gun shop. I’ll check with him but I’ll bet that each FFL holder who does checks can see almost immediately if the purchaser has a criminal record. No state official needed.


WHo are you saying is doing the check ?


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## JoeB131 (Jun 11, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Wrong.....
> 
> You morons always ignore the fact...the fact, that the nazi party disarmed Jews and political enemies......



Which is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT to the point I was making. 

Not only didn't they really do that (Because gun records were pretty much incomplete)  but the thing was, regular Germans (who overwealming supported the Nazis) did have guns and not a one of them rushed out and tried to stand up to the Gestapo.  

In fact, those regular Germans only used their guns to take pot-shots at allied Troops when they entered Germany,w hich is why the allies had to confiscate all the guns.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 11, 2018)

protectionist said:


> My point exactly. If he wasn't, that was *because of the PROMISE Program*. Get it ?



That and if we started prosecuting teens for being angsty, we'd empty the High Schools.  

So  your argument is that they didn't put Cruz on a list no one was actually checking to start with?  Got it.


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## PredFan (Jun 11, 2018)

protectionist said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > I smell bull shit. I have a friend who owns a gun shop. I’ll check with him but I’ll bet that each FFL holder who does checks can see almost immediately if the purchaser has a criminal record. No state official needed.
> ...



Each person who conducts a background check has access to the results. That would be the seller of the gun in most cases.


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## protectionist (Jun 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> That and if we started prosecuting teens for being angsty, we'd empty the High Schools.
> 
> So  your argument is that they didn't put Cruz on a list no one was actually checking to start with?  Got it.


No, you DON'T _"got it"_.  "To start with", (before the PROMISE Program), the high school criminals had been expelled and arrested, and given criminal records.  Because of Obama's idiotic PROMISE Program, they became off limits to law enforcement, and unknown to gun sellers.

This is what allowed Cruz to buy his guns, when he otherwise wouldn't have. NOW, you've "got it".


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## 2aguy (Jun 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong.....
> ...




Moron......those the majority of the people were not party members......and the enemies of the party were disarmed and brutalized you moron.....

After the war?  Moron, the Germans armed teenagers to fight the Allies after Germany was invaded, you mope......just like the Japanese did for their invasion......


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## 2aguy (Jun 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> protectionist said:
> 
> 
> > My point exactly. If he wasn't, that was *because of the PROMISE Program*. Get it ?
> ...




Moron, he attacked students and teachers and brought knives and bullets to school you moron, he was an actual criminal who escaped arrest because of obama's stupid Promise Program....


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## JoeB131 (Jun 11, 2018)

protectionist said:


> No, you DON'T _"got it"_. "To start with", (before the PROMISE Program), the high school criminals had been expelled and arrested, and given criminal records. Because of Obama's idiotic PROMISE Program, they became off limits to law enforcement, and unknown to gun sellers.



black kids were arrested before that law... White kids like Cruz never were...  

Nothing he did really merited a criminal conviction.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 11, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Moron, he attacked students and teachers and brought knives and bullets to school you moron, he was an actual criminal who escaped arrest because of obama's stupid Promise Program....



Okay, i know you guys have your little story... but the reality... he didn't do anything that was worth arresting him over.  

Getting expelled isn't enough to deny you a gun... maybe it should be, but you gun nutters would be the first to whine if it did.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 11, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Moron......those the majority of the people were not party members......and the enemies of the party were disarmed and brutalized you moron.....



The Majority were all for Hitler when Germany was winning.  And they had no problem getting guns... 
Nazi gun control was a myth... 



2aguy said:


> After the war? Moron, the Germans armed teenagers to fight the Allies after Germany was invaded, you mope......just like the Japanese did for their invasion......



And that was the point.  Plenty of guns, lots of people have them, 

And no one turned them on the Nazis... The fought for them to the last man.  

Just like you gun nutters support Trump to the very end.  

So letting you nuts have guns so you can not stop a dictator isn't a very good reason.


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