# Free the border agents!



## MrJim (Nov 11, 2008)

Time is Running Out for President to Free Border Agents

 Posted by Bobby Eberle
November 11, 2008 at 7:28 am 
>> Printer-Friendly Version

With a little over two months left in office, President Bush has the opportunity to right an incredible injustice. He has the constitutional power to pardon former Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. Unlike President Clinton in his last days in office, who used pardons as political pay-back, President Bush should step forward and grant freedom to these agents who were doing their job protecting America.

For those how haven't followed this case, Agents Ramos and Compean shot an illegal alien as he was fleeing back to the Mexican border. The illegal alien, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, was in the process of smuggling approximately a million dollars worth of marijuana into the U.S. What happened next has set the stage for President Bush to take action in his closing days as president.


Rather than being commended for protecting America's borders, U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton decided to prosecute the agents. Sutton granted Davila immunity in exchange for testimony. Sutton said the agents "shot 15 times at an unarmed, fleeing man." Sutton also claims that the agents "decided to lie about it, cover it up, destroy the evidence, pick up all the shell casings and throw them away where we couldn't find them, destroy the crime scene and then file a false report."

In a statement issued in January, 2007, Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) said that it was "irresponsible" to punish Agents Ramos and Compean with jail time.

"The Border Patrol is America's first line of defense against the constant and unrelenting efforts of drug and human smugglers to illegally enter the United States," said Congressman Hunter. "Agents Compean and Ramos fulfilled their responsibilities as Border Patrol agents and rightfully pursued a suspected and fleeing drug smuggler. It is irresponsible to punish them with jail time.

"The security situation on our Southern land border requires a strong law enforcement presence. This conviction demoralizes our nation's Border Patrol and sends a clear message that we are not serious about protecting our borders and enforcing our immigration laws."

Hunter's communications director, Joe Kasper, commented at the time that the facts of this case are "so nebulous" that the case represents a "severe injustice."

"Agents Ramos and Compean felt threatened and acted appropriately to apprehend the individual. At most, an administrative punishment is required but certainly not 11- and 12-year federal prison sentences."

As Ramos and Compean languish in prison, guess what happened to the illegal alien drug dealer... In November, 2007, Davila was arrested again for drug smuggling.

The Washington Times quotes T. J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, as being critical with the timing of the indictment against Aldrete Davila.

"Osvaldo Aldrete Davila should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for these felonies two years ago," said Mr. Bonner, whose group represents more than 12,000 Border Patrol agents. "This deliberate and unconscionable delay directly resulted in the wrongful incarceration of two innocent law-enforcement officers."

According to Drug Enforcement Administration documents obtained by The Times, DEA investigators believed they had sufficient evidence to indict Aldrete Davila in late 2005, but their requests to do so were denied by Mr. Sutton's office.

President Bush has the opportunity to correct the actions by Sutton and to set Ramos and Compean free! Contact President Bush and urge him to do the right thing. A presidential pardon will allow Ramos and Compean to return to their families. Join GOPUSA in sending a message to the president.

++ Click here to send a message to President Bush urging him to pardon Ramos and Compean

Please encourage your friends and associates to send a message as well. President Bush has only two months left to take action.


----------



## MrJim (Nov 11, 2008)

Time is Running Out for President to Free Border Agents
With a little over two months left in office, President Bush has the opportunity to right an incredible injustice. He has the constitutional power to pardon former Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. Unlike President Clinton in his last days in office, who used pardons as political pay-back, President Bush should step forward and grant freedom to these agents who were doing their job protecting America.

For those how haven't followed this case, Agents Ramos and Compean shot an illegal alien as he was fleeing back to the Mexican border. The illegal alien, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, was in the process of smuggling approximately a million dollars worth of marijuana into the U.S. What happened next has set the stage for President Bush to take action in his closing days as president.


Rather than being commended for protecting America's borders, U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton decided to prosecute the agents. Sutton granted Davila immunity in exchange for testimony. Sutton said the agents "shot 15 times at an unarmed, fleeing man." Sutton also claims that the agents "decided to lie about it, cover it up, destroy the evidence, pick up all the shell casings and throw them away where we couldn't find them, destroy the crime scene and then file a false report."

In a statement issued in January, 2007, Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) said that it was "irresponsible" to punish Agents Ramos and Compean with jail time.

"The Border Patrol is America's first line of defense against the constant and unrelenting efforts of drug and human smugglers to illegally enter the United States," said Congressman Hunter. "Agents Compean and Ramos fulfilled their responsibilities as Border Patrol agents and rightfully pursued a suspected and fleeing drug smuggler. It is irresponsible to punish them with jail time.

"The security situation on our Southern land border requires a strong law enforcement presence. This conviction demoralizes our nation's Border Patrol and sends a clear message that we are not serious about protecting our borders and enforcing our immigration laws."

Hunter's communications director, Joe Kasper, commented at the time that the facts of this case are "so nebulous" that the case represents a "severe injustice."

"Agents Ramos and Compean felt threatened and acted appropriately to apprehend the individual. At most, an administrative punishment is required but certainly not 11- and 12-year federal prison sentences."

As Ramos and Compean languish in prison, guess what happened to the illegal alien drug dealer... In November, 2007, Davila was arrested again for drug smuggling.

The Washington Times quotes T. J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, as being critical with the timing of the indictment against Aldrete Davila.

"Osvaldo Aldrete Davila should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for these felonies two years ago," said Mr. Bonner, whose group represents more than 12,000 Border Patrol agents. "This deliberate and unconscionable delay directly resulted in the wrongful incarceration of two innocent law-enforcement officers."

According to Drug Enforcement Administration documents obtained by The Times, DEA investigators believed they had sufficient evidence to indict Aldrete Davila in late 2005, but their requests to do so were denied by Mr. Sutton's office.

President Bush has the opportunity to correct the actions by Sutton and to set Ramos and Compean free! Contact President Bush and urge him to do the right thing. A presidential pardon will allow Ramos and Compean to return to their families. Join GOPUSA in sending a message to the president.

++ Click here to send a message to President Bush urging him to pardon Ramos and Compean

Please encourage your friends and associates to send a message as well. President Bush has only two months left to take action.


----------



## CA95380 (Nov 11, 2008)

> ++ Click here to send a message to President Bush urging him to pardon Ramos and Compean



  Where is the link?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Nov 11, 2008)

CA95380 said:


> Where is the link?



He can not post a link till he has 15 posts.


----------



## dilloduck (Nov 11, 2008)

MrJim said:


> Time is Running Out for President to Free Border Agents
> With a little over two months left in office, President Bush has the opportunity to right an incredible injustice. He has the constitutional power to pardon former Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. Unlike President Clinton in his last days in office, who used pardons as political pay-back, President Bush should step forward and grant freedom to these agents who were doing their job protecting America.
> 
> For those how haven't followed this case, Agents Ramos and Compean shot an illegal alien as he was fleeing back to the Mexican border. The illegal alien, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, was in the process of smuggling approximately a million dollars worth of marijuana into the U.S. What happened next has set the stage for President Bush to take action in his closing days as president.
> ...



They had better be the first two he cuts loose--sooner the better. They got screwed.


----------



## aztech (Nov 11, 2008)

It is a disgrace that these two are still sitting in any prison.  Yes the judicial system is a great thing, but there are times when it is nothing but a joke.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 11, 2008)

MrJim said:


> Time is Running Out for President to Free Border Agents
> With a little over two months left in office, President Bush has the opportunity to right an incredible injustice. He has the constitutional power to pardon former Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. Unlike President Clinton in his last days in office, who used pardons as political pay-back, President Bush should step forward and grant freedom to these agents who were doing their job protecting America.
> 
> For those how haven't followed this case, Agents Ramos and Compean shot an illegal alien as he was fleeing back to the Mexican border. The illegal alien, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, was in the process of smuggling approximately a million dollars worth of marijuana into the U.S. What happened next has set the stage for President Bush to take action in his closing days as president.
> ...



I sent a written letter to Bush about the agents..no answer, big surprise.  I've written all my representatives, again, no answer, big surprise.  I don't think our government is representing America or Americans anymore.  

I do not believe that Obama will be any better, or worse than those in power now.

I feel for those agents, but absent our own Bastille Day, I don't see them getting out until they've served their terms.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 11, 2008)

Nope! no justice for the border patrol. seems like the bad guys are winning these days!


----------



## MrJim (Nov 11, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He can not post a link till he has 15 posts.




Damn!!I didn't know that. (it was in a GOP email)


----------



## Gunny (Nov 12, 2008)

MrJim said:


> Damn!!I didn't know that. (it was in a GOP email)



You can still provide the link.  Add it to the thread and I'll put it in your post.

And yeah, if Bush pardons anyone, these two should be close to the top of the list.


----------



## Dr Grump (Nov 12, 2008)

said the agents "*shot 15 times at an unarmed*, fleeing man." Sutton also claims that the agents "decided to *lie about it, cover it up, destroy the evidence, pick up all the shell casings and throw them away where we couldn't find them, destroy the crime scene and then file a false report."*

If they did the bolded parts, they can stay there for a while and learn a lesson. They are not above the law.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 12, 2008)

Dr Grump said:


> said the agents "*shot 15 times at an unarmed*, fleeing man." Sutton also claims that the agents "decided to *lie about it, cover it up, destroy the evidence, pick up all the shell casings and throw them away where we couldn't find them, destroy the crime scene and then file a false report."*
> 
> If they did the bolded parts, they can stay there for a while and learn a lesson. They are not above the law.


I have a friend who just retired as a Border Patrol Agent.

I once asked him about this case.

He told me that these two guys were as guilty as hell and deserved to be in prison.


----------



## 007 (Nov 12, 2008)

Dr Grump said:


> said the agents "*shot 15 times at an unarmed*, fleeing man." Sutton also claims that the agents "decided to *lie about it, cover it up, destroy the evidence, pick up all the shell casings and throw them away where we couldn't find them, destroy the crime scene and then file a false report."*
> 
> If they did the bolded parts, they can stay there for a while and learn a lesson. They are not above the law.



Sutton is Bush's attack dog. Bush is a NWO, Mexico first, America second, piece of shit. He'd rather frame these two border guards for doing their job and throw them in jail instead of prosecuting the two drug smuggling illegal alien border jumpers. Bush is the one who should be tried and thrown in jail for fucking treason.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 12, 2008)

Dr Grump said:


> said the agents "*shot 15 times at an unarmed*, fleeing man." Sutton also claims that the agents "decided to *lie about it, cover it up, destroy the evidence, pick up all the shell casings and throw them away where we couldn't find them, destroy the crime scene and then file a false report."*
> 
> If they did the bolded parts, they can stay there for a while and learn a lesson. They are not above the law.



Sutton is full of shit, IMO.  He used this to try and make a name for himself.  The guy wa a drug dealer and the agents said he was armed.  He goes across to the Mexican side, taking everything with him, then they take the word of a drug dealer he didn't have a gun.

Yeah, I'm going for THAT one.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 12, 2008)

Dr Grump said:


> said the agents "*shot 15 times at an unarmed*, fleeing man." Sutton also claims that the agents "decided to *lie about it, cover it up, destroy the evidence, pick up all the shell casings and throw them away where we couldn't find them, destroy the crime scene and then file a false report."*
> 
> If they did the bolded parts, they can stay there for a while and learn a lesson. They are not above the law.



From what I read, the wound was consistent with someone who was turning around while running, as if pointing or aiming something at the agents.  No report was filed, many border patrol agents were on the scene including their supervisor who was suppose to file the report and he suggested since no one got hurt they not file the report as they would "be here all night".  The supervisor then lied on the stand and surprise, got upgraded for it.  One of them did pick up some of the shell casing and angrly threw them, upset that he'd missed and the guy got away.

The go between was another border patrol agent who had been childhood friends with the drug dealer (how many times do you wanna bet he let his childhood friend bring drugs into this country).

Sutton went to Mexico to talk the man into coming back, promised him free medical care and amnesty for the 700 pounds of marijuana found in his truck.  The man was free to come and go across the border and before the trial even started he was caught bringing even more drugs across the border.  Sutton covered it up and didn't allow that to be discussed during the trial.

The jury was told they must have a unanimous verdict.  Many of the jururs felt they were lied to and would have voted "not-guilty".  

Nope, IMO Sutton should be the one in jail, not the border patrol agents.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 12, 2008)

Sunni Man said:


> I have a friend who just retired as a Border Patrol Agent.
> 
> I once asked him about this case.
> 
> He told me that these two guys were as guilty as hell and deserved to be in prison.



Hmm, doesn't happen to be the border patrol agent that's been friends with the illegal criminal since childhood does it?


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 12, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Hmm, doesn't happen to be the border patrol agent that's been friends with the illegal criminal since childhood does it?


No idea who you are talking about?

But I can assure you my friend is as straight as an arrow and tells it like it is.


----------



## CrimsonWhite (Nov 12, 2008)

My brother works the border in Arizona. He tells me that these guys are guilty as hell and that the concensus among most of the Border Patrol Agents he works with is that these guys "screwed the pooch." Their plight has been picked up by those that rabidly want to shut our entire border down. I'm in that column as well, but I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon to free a couple guys that fucked up royally. These guys are not heroes.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 12, 2008)

Sunni Man said:


> No idea who you are talking about?
> 
> But I can assure you my friend is as straight as an arrow and tells it like it is.



You mean like YOU do?


----------



## Gunny (Nov 12, 2008)

CrimsonWhite said:


> My brother works the border in Arizona. He tells me that these guys are guilty as hell and that the concensus among most of the Border Patrol Agents he works with is that these guys "screwed the pooch." Their plight has been picked up by those that rabidly want to shut our entire border down. I'm in that column as well, but I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon to free a couple guys that fucked up royally. These guys are not heroes.



I see.  According to them, they pursued this guy and he was armed.  When he turns up later he isn't so that means he wasn't?  Because a drug dealer's word is more trustworthy than a law enforcement officer's?

They're guilty of panicking and covering up the incident, but based on what has transpired since, I have a hard time blaming them.  They hung these guys out to dry and the sentences are too severe for the crime, IMO.


----------



## CrimsonWhite (Nov 12, 2008)

Gunny said:


> I see.  According to them, they pursued this guy and he was armed.  When he turns up later he isn't so that means he wasn't?  *Because a drug dealer's word is more trustworthy than a law enforcement officer's?*
> They're guilty of panicking and covering up the incident, but based on what has transpired since, I have a hard time blaming them.  They hung these guys out to dry and the sentences are too severe for the crime, IMO.



I don't agree with the bold print at all. However, these guys did screw the pooch. They didn't report the shooting, because they did not feel that the alleged assailant had not been hit? Bullshit. You report any incident in which your service weapon has been discharged. 

You are correct. They are guilty of covering up the incident. They shot at a *fleeing* suspect that they suspected was armed. They policed their brass. This is destroying evidence and is a federal crime. These Agents' probably didn't merit the punishement that they recieved, but they brought it on themselves. If they had handled the incident in a more professional manner, the would probably still be on the border. 

BTW, the people that tell me that these guys are guilty as hell, are Border Patrol Agents themselves. That tells me alot.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 12, 2008)

CrimsonWhite said:


> I don't agree with the bold print at all. However, these guys did screw the pooch. They didn't report the shooting, because they did not feel that the alleged assailant had not been hit? Bullshit. You report any incident in which your service weapon has been discharged.
> 
> You are correct. They are guilty of covering up the incident. They shot at a *fleeing* suspect that they suspected was armed. They policed their brass. This is destroying evidence and is a federal crime. These Agents' probably didn't merit the punishement that they recieved, but they brought it on themselves. If they had handled the incident in a more professional manner, the would probably still be on the border.
> 
> BTW, the people that tell me that these guys are guilty as hell, are Border Patrol Agents themselves. That tells me alot.



Fleeing suspects can't shoot at you?  I suggest NEVER chasing me.  

I already agreed they were guilty of covering up the incident and should have been punished for that.  

I know a few Border Patrol Agents myself and apparently there is a difference of opinion between Texas and Arizona.  I personally take the words of both with a grain of salt.

There is a mentality in the Federal government -- unless you're a Democrat -- to go for blood on the slightest accusation.  The Marine Corps does it.  The GOP does it.

Flipside of the coin, there is a "good old boy network" code of silence.  I would look at the actual evidence.  

Police officers shooting at a suspect they _believe_ is armed happens regularly.  I wouldn't risk the chance.  They were sloppy though, because I also doubt I would have missed.

Point is, the punishment IS too severe.  Clinton lied to cover up a crime and he didn't get 12 years.


----------



## CrimsonWhite (Nov 12, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Fleeing suspects can't shoot at you?  I suggest NEVER chasing me.
> 
> I already agreed they were guilty of covering up the incident and should have been punished for that.
> 
> ...



I'll admit that my knowledge of this case is maginal at best. Let me get into it and get back to you. You nevr know, I might change my mind.


----------



## Vel (Nov 12, 2008)

CrimsonWhite said:


> I don't agree with the bold print at all. However, these guys did screw the pooch. *They didn't report the shooting, because they did not feel that the alleged assailant had not been hit? Bullshit. You report any incident in which your service weapon has been discharged. *You are correct. They are guilty of covering up the incident. They shot at a *fleeing* suspect that they suspected was armed. They policed their brass. This is destroying evidence and is a federal crime. These Agents' probably didn't merit the punishement that they recieved, but they brought it on themselves. If they had handled the incident in a more professional manner, the would probably still be on the border.
> 
> BTW, the people that tell me that these guys are guilty as hell, are Border Patrol Agents themselves. That tells me alot.




Their supervisor as well as other agents were on the scene. If their mistake was just that a report wasn't filed then their supervisor should be in jail with them. And please..10 years? Here in Tennessee, we had a woman shoot her sleeping husband in the back because he wanted her to dress up for sex and she only got 6 months.


----------



## MrJim (Nov 12, 2008)

Gunny said:


> You can still provide the link.  Add it to the thread and I'll put it in your post.
> 
> And yeah, if Bush pardons anyone, these two should be close to the top of the list.


>>

The link was at the end of the letter: "++ Click here to send a message to President Bush urging him to pardon Ramos and Compean.


----------



## CrimsonWhite (Nov 12, 2008)

Vel6377 said:


> Their supervisor as well as other agents were on the scene. If their mistake was just that a report wasn't filed then their supervisor should be in jail with them. And please..10 years? Here in Tennessee, we had a woman shoot her sleeping husband in the back because he wanted her to dress up for sex and she only got 6 months.



Okay, where are you getting that their supervisor was on scene with them? Also your, Tennessee case isn't relevant. Differences in federal and state sentencing.


----------



## Agnapostate (Nov 13, 2008)

I'd like to see these two remain incarcerated, if only for the fact that John and Ken will be aggravated to no end.


----------



## Article 15 (Nov 13, 2008)

Cops are not above the law.

I don't feel the least bit sorry for these two.


----------



## strollingbones (Nov 13, 2008)

tis never the crime...always the cover up....the agents placed themselves in this postion.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 13, 2008)

CrimsonWhite said:


> I don't agree with the bold print at all. However, these guys did screw the pooch. They didn't report the shooting, because they did not feel that the alleged assailant had not been hit? Bullshit. You report any incident in which your service weapon has been discharged.
> 
> You are correct. They are guilty of covering up the incident. They shot at a *fleeing* suspect that they suspected was armed. They policed their brass. This is destroying evidence and is a federal crime. These Agents' probably didn't merit the punishement that they recieved, but they brought it on themselves. If they had handled the incident in a more professional manner, the would probably still be on the border.
> 
> BTW, the people that tell me that these guys are guilty as hell, are Border Patrol Agents themselves. That tells me alot.




There were several border patrol agents on the scene, including their supervisor whose job it was to file that report.  One of them picked up some of his casings and threw them in anger, not to cover anything up.

BTW, from what I understand it was their job to report the incident to their supervisor WHO WAS ON THE SCENE, and their supervisors job to file the report.  That same supervisor later lied on the stand and got promoted for it.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 13, 2008)

CrimsonWhite said:


> Okay, where are you getting that their supervisor was on scene with them? Also your, Tennessee case isn't relevant. Differences in federal and state sentencing.



At the time I read voraciously on the subject.  Their supervisor as well as several other border patrol officers were on the scene.  The doctor hired by the prosecutor said that the entry and exit of the wounds was consistant with someone that was turning around and pointing somthing behind him while running.  Their supervisor lied on the stand and was promoted for it.  

The drug runner was caught running drugs before the trial even started and said on the stand that he had never run drugs before or since and Sutton made it so the jury never heard about the subsequent drug runs for which the drug dealer is now in prison for LESS time than the border patrol agents that shot at him.


----------



## CrimsonWhite (Nov 13, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> At the time I read voraciously on the subject.  Their supervisor as well as several other border patrol officers were on the scene.  The doctor hired by the prosecutor said that the entry and exit of the wounds was consistant with someone that was turning around and pointing somthing behind him while running.  Their supervisor lied on the stand and was promoted for it.
> 
> The drug runner was caught running drugs before the trial even started and said on the stand that he had never run drugs before or since and Sutton made it so the jury never heard about the subsequent drug runs for which the drug dealer is now in prison for LESS time than the border patrol agents that shot at him.



Then you read wrong. The supervisor was on scene for the seizure of the drugs. The shooting was not reported for two weeks after it happened. The Station supervisor learned of the shooting via word of mouth from his wife. The agents policed their brass and did not report a shooting. By not immediatly reporting the shooting, it calls into question whether or not the assailant was shooting at them. 

I am in agreement with Gunny on this. The punishment did not fit the crime. These guys should have been told to seek employment elsewhere, but they did not deserve to go to prison. The shitty thing is, that if these guys had gotten on the radio and reported "shots fired" then they would still be on the border today.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 14, 2008)

CrimsonWhite said:


> Then you read wrong. The supervisor was on scene for the seizure of the drugs. The shooting was not reported for two weeks after it happened. The Station supervisor learned of the shooting via word of mouth from his wife. The agents policed their brass and did not report a shooting. By not immediatly reporting the shooting, it calls into question whether or not the assailant was shooting at them.
> 
> I am in agreement with Gunny on this. The punishment did not fit the crime. These guys should have been told to seek employment elsewhere, but they did not deserve to go to prison. The shitty thing is, that if these guys had gotten on the radio and reported "shots fired" then they would still be on the border today.



Right, the supervisor was on the seen AFTER the shots were fired and never learned of them.  Nope, didn't see the bullet casings or Ramos and Compean cussing...or discussing what had happened with the OTHER border patrol agents at the scene.  He heard it from his wife after the fact, yeah, I believe that.  And he got a promotion for that????

I do agree the guys should have been disciplined, but the again, the supervisor is the one who was suppose to file the report and didn't.  Even if it happened as you said, the only thing they are guilty of is not filing a report on having fired their guns.  Hardly worth losing their job, let alone spending 10 and 12 years in prison.

AND IMO, if the supervisor had to hear of the shots fired from his wife, she should be the one working for the border patrol, not him.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

The two border agents deserve to be in prison.  They were arrest, tried and convicted unanimously in a jury trial.

These agents broke the law and then they covered it up.

The court of appeals upheld their conviction and the were recently restentenced to their original terms.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> The two border agents deserve to be in prison.  They were arrest, tried and convicted unanimously in a jury trial.
> 
> These agents broke the law and then they covered it up.
> 
> The court of appeals upheld their conviction and the were recently restentenced to their original terms.



Yeah, the court of appeals that was suppose to issue a verdict in 45 days and originally said they didn't understand why Sutton charged them with the crime he charged them with, and more than 6th months later ruled exactly the way Bush and his buddy Sutton wanted them to.  

No offense, but I think our court system is about as corrupt as the Mexican court system.  The jury was told they MUST have a unanimous decision.  Several of the jurers, later wanted to change their vote. 

Sutton never should have brought this charge against the agents and having done so he's set a presidence and any cop that now discharges his gun during a felony can be charged.  The law was intended to punish criminals, not our law enforcement officers, but that's the way it was used in this case and that opens the door against every other law enforcement officer in the country.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Yeah, the court of appeals that was suppose to issue a verdict in 45 days and originally said they didn't understand why Sutton charged them with the crime he charged them with, and more than 6th months later ruled exactly the way Bush and his buddy Sutton wanted them to.
> 
> No offense, but I think our court system is about as corrupt as the Mexican court system.  The jury was told they MUST have a unanimous decision.  Several of the jurers, later wanted to change their vote.
> 
> Sutton never should have brought this charge against the agents and having done so he's set a presidence and any cop that now discharges his gun during a felony can be charged.  The law was intended to punish criminals, not our law enforcement officers, but that's the way it was used in this case and that opens the door against every other law enforcement officer in the country.



If the border agents had reported discharging their weapon they would not be in prison today.    They did follow their training and report the shoot to the supervisor and they also filed false reports.

The precedent setting in this case is that law enforcement follow the law and their own rules of procedure or face the consequences.  

The law is intended to be enforced fairly.  Law enforcement is not above the law.

Review the facts.  The officers shot a man who was unarmed when his back was to them.  

They didn't want to be bothered calling the supervisor to the scene or having their action reviewed.  So they did not report the shoot and filed a false report and even went back to pick up their shell casings.

They broke the law and covered it up.

Just like Nixon, it was the cover-up that caused the bigger problem.


----------



## CrimsonWhite (Nov 14, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Right, the supervisor was on the seen AFTER the shots were fired and never learned of them.  Nope, didn't see the bullet casings or Ramos and Compean cussing...or discussing what had happened with the OTHER border patrol agents at the scene.  He heard it from his wife after the fact, yeah, I believe that.  And he got a promotion for that????
> 
> I do agree the guys should have been disciplined, but the again, the supervisor is the one who was suppose to file the report and didn't.  Even if it happened as you said, the only thing they are guilty of is not filing a report on having fired their guns.  Hardly worth losing their job, let alone spending 10 and 12 years in prison.
> 
> AND IMO, if the supervisor had to hear of the shots fired from his wife, she should be the one working for the border patrol, not him.



Did you miss the part where they policed their brass? It was not the supervisors job to file any thing. It was those two agents job to report it to their supervisor. If these simple facts are beyond you, then look for something else to do. Take up knitting or somthing.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> If the border agents had reported discharging their weapon they would not be in prison today.    They did follow their training and report the shoot to the supervisor and they also filed false reports.
> 
> The precedent setting in this case is that law enforcement follow the law and their own rules of procedure or face the consequences.
> 
> ...



So you believe the word of a repeat criminal over the word of the border patrol agents?  They claimed he was pointing a gun at them.  The doctor said that the wound was consistant with someone who was turning as if to aim or point something behind him while running.  They did not "go back" to pick up their casings.  ONE of the agents picked up a few of his casings and threw them in anger immediately AFTER the shooting.  The supervisor was on the scene, they reported to him.  HE was suppose to file the report but said, according to the agents "If we file a report, we'll be here all night" and they decided NOT to file one since the guy apparently wasn't hurt as he kept running and lept into a car.  Truth is, we don't even know if the criminal WAS shot by the border patrol agents since they didn't have any bullistics to test.  Perhaps he was shot by the drug dealer, angry at him losing all those drugs?

From what I read, there was NO report filed, therefor they didn't file a false report.

Further, the drug dealer LIED on the stand, and we know this since he said he'd never transported drugs before or since and he'd been caught TWICE since the prosecutor granted him immunity but the prosecutor made sure that little fact didn't get reported to the jury.

I suggest you get on the net and read about this case, there's a lot of questions out there.  Like why the government of Mexico asked that these two be prosecuted and why Bush told Sutton to prosecute them.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> So you believe the word of a repeat criminal over the word of the border patrol agents?  They claimed he was pointing a gun at them.  The doctor said that the wound was consistant with someone who was turning as if to aim or point something behind him while running.  They did not "go back" to pick up their casings.  ONE of the agents picked up a few of his casings and threw them in anger immediately AFTER the shooting.  The supervisor was on the scene, they reported to him.  HE was suppose to file the report but said, according to the agents "If we file a report, we'll be here all night" and they decided NOT to file one since the guy apparently wasn't hurt as he kept running and lept into a car.  Truth is, we don't even know if the criminal WAS shot by the border patrol agents since they didn't have any bullistics to test.  Perhaps he was shot by the drug dealer, angry at him losing all those drugs?
> 
> From what I read, there was NO report filed, therefor they didn't file a false report.
> 
> ...



I have read extensively on this case.  I read the trial transcripts.  I printed them out and studied them.

I am convinced the jury heard all the evidence and decided they were guility.  They were convicted and sentenced.  The court of appeals has upheld the decision and the sentencing.   

It's over.  Justice has been served.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I have read extensively on this case.  I read the trial transcripts.  I printed them out and studied them.
> 
> I am convinced the jury heard all the evidence and decided they were guility.  They were convicted and sentenced.  The court of appeals has upheld the decision and the sentencing.
> 
> It's over.  Justice has been served.




And yet, you believe they shot at an "unarmed man" who was transporting 700 pounds of marijuana across the border.  You believe the word of the drug dealer over that of the border patrol officers.  Did you bother reading what the doctor said about the entry and exit of the wound?  Or don't you remember that part?


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> And yet, you believe they shot at an "unarmed man" who was transporting 700 pounds of marijuana across the border.  You believe the word of the drug dealer over that of the border patrol officers.  Did you bother reading what the doctor said about the entry and exit of the wound?  Or don't you remember that part?



Yes.  They shot at a drug smuggler.  I believe the word of one of the other officers who was present at the scene.  It was a bad shoot.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Yes.  They shot at a drug smuggler.  I believe the word of one of the other officers who was present at the scene.  It was a bad shoot.



You didn't answer the question.  Did you read what the doctor said about the entry and exit of the wound being consistant with someone who is turning around while running, as if pointing something behind him?

If so, what do you think of the doctor's testimony?


----------



## Article 15 (Nov 14, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> You didn't answer the question.  Did you read what the doctor said about the entry and exit of the wound being consistant with someone who is turning around while running, as if pointing something behind him?
> 
> If so, what do you think of the doctor's testimony?



Or the guy could have been looking behind him to see how close the cops were to him.

Or he could have been about to zig or zag.

It's weak.


----------



## Againsheila (Nov 14, 2008)

Article 15 said:


> Or the guy could have been looking behind him to see how close the cops were to him.
> 
> Or he could have been about to zig or zag.
> 
> It's weak.



He was bringing over 700 pounds of marijuana across the border, do you really believe he didn't have a gun?


----------



## Article 15 (Nov 14, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> He was bringing over 700 pounds of marijuana across the border, do you really believe he didn't have a gun?



Yes.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> You didn't answer the question.  Did you read what the doctor said about the entry and exit of the wound being consistant with someone who is turning around while running, as if pointing something behind him?
> 
> If so, what do you think of the doctor's testimony?



I read trial testimony but I don't remember focusing on the doctor.  There was a ton of evidence.  

The trial is over.  Your 'heroes' lost.


----------



## 007 (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I read trial testimony but I don't remember focusing on the doctor.  There was a ton of evidence.
> 
> The trial is over.  Your 'heroes' lost.



Yup. Score one for the ILLEGAL ALIEN DRUG SMUGGLERS, score zero for America. What a great day.

You make me sick.


----------



## Article 15 (Nov 14, 2008)

Pale Rider said:


> Yup. Score one for the ILLEGAL ALIEN DRUG SMUGGLERS, score zero for America. What a great day.
> 
> You make me sick.



Yeah screw integrity in law enforcement too!!!

They shouldn't have to follow the rule of law!!!

(as long as it involves brown people)


----------



## Sovereignty (Nov 14, 2008)

Being an American is a State of Mind.  Being an illegal alien is an act of war!


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Pale Rider said:


> Yup. Score one for the ILLEGAL ALIEN DRUG SMUGGLERS, score zero for America. What a great day.



The drug smuggler was convicted.  The border agents who broke the law were convicted.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Article 15 said:


> Yeah screw integrity in law enforcement too!!!
> 
> They shouldn't have to follow the rule of law!!!
> 
> (as long as it involves brown people)



Right.   The skin color of Americans is getting darker.  Henny Penny the sky is falling!


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 14, 2008)

Well lookee here. We have given 30 million illegals a free pass to break our laws and bankrupt our schools and medical system. yep, and thousands of them are felons,, yep,, so this time let's let a couple of Americans skate,, free the border agents after all the color of their skin is just right, it's not white. so there,


----------



## Agnapostate (Nov 14, 2008)

Pale Rider said:


> Yup. Score one for the ILLEGAL ALIEN DRUG SMUGGLERS, score zero for America. What a great day.
> 
> You make me sick.



Aren't you registered at Stormfront? I'm not trying to insult you; there's actually a guy named Pale Rider registered at Stormfront. Is that a white biker thing?

At any rate, it's necessary to note that a shooting and subsequent imprisonment were it not for the United States' ill-conceived and counterproductive prohibition of immigration and drug use. As always, the criminalization creates an illegal black market.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 14, 2008)

Agnapostate said:


> Aren't you registered at Stormfront? I'm not trying to insult you; there's actually a guy named Pale Rider registered at Stormfront. Is that a white biker thing?
> 
> At any rate, it's necessary to note that a shooting and subsequent imprisonment were it not for the United States' ill-conceived and counterproductive prohibition of immigration and drug use. As always, the criminalization creates an illegal black market.





Would you be satisfied if we followed the same immigration laws that Mexico has???


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Would a member of Stormfront actually identify himself as such?  Does anyone on this forum identify as a white supremacist?


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Well lookee here. We have given 30 million illegals a free pass to break our laws and bankrupt our schools and medical system. yep, and thousands of them are felons,, yep,, so this time let's let a couple of Americans skate,, free the border agents after all the color of their skin is just right, it's not white. so there,



Pat Buchanan stirs up anti-Mexican sentiment all the time by making white supremacists afraid of the 'browning of America".


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Pat Buchanan stirs up anti-Mexican sentiment all the time by making white supremacists afraid of the 'browning of America".





irrelavent to the subjects of this conversation as they are both brown skinned.. I say free em.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

I say let them serve their sentence.  The appeals are over.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I say let them serve their sentence.  The appeals are over.






I know you said that, I am disagreeing for the reasons stated. Time to give a couple of Americans a break,, after all there are 30 million or so lawbreakers wandering around.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 14, 2008)

Article 15 said:


> Yeah screw integrity in law enforcement too!!!
> 
> They shouldn't have to follow the rule of law!!!
> 
> (as long as it involves brown people)








Hello!! in case you haven't noticed the border agents are Hispanic and have brown skin, now will you cut them some slack?  It's pretty doggone bad when you bitch about white people who aren't even involved.. downright pathetic!


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Why?

There are plenty of people in prison that want a break.  The agents broke the law, they were convicted and sentenced.   They've had appeals and the original convictions and sentences stand.

That's justice served.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Why?
> 
> There are plenty of people in prison that want a break.  The agents broke the law, they were convicted and sentenced.   They've had appeals and the original convictions and sentences stand.
> 
> That's justice served.





nope! not in my mind, not while we have 30 million people wandering around breaking the law. I say free them time served is enough! too much actually.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

The border patrol agents broke the law.  They were arrested, tried, convicted by a unanimous jury of their peers and sentenced.  They had appeals.  All appeals failed.  Their convictions and sentences have been upheld.

End of story.

They'll never be border patrol agents again.

You don't get to free them.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> The border patrol agents broke the law.  They were arrested, tried, convicted by a unanimous jury of their peers and sentenced.  They had appeals.  All appeals failed.  Their convictions and sentences have been upheld.
> 
> End of story.
> 
> ...







we shall see. we shall see. I hope so.


----------



## Agnapostate (Nov 14, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Would you be satisfied if we followed the same immigration laws that Mexico has???



Of course not. That's why the Mexican government should be overthrown by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation. Twas' a shame their Chiapas campaign failed. 



sky dancer said:


> Would a member of Stormfront actually identify himself as such?  Does anyone on this forum identify as a white supremacist?



I'm a former poster on Stormfront...though I'm far from being a white supremacist. I was mostly there to irk them until I got permabanned.


----------



## strollingbones (Nov 14, 2008)

lol@anyone taking directions from david duke..and how the hell did he get the doctor in front of his name?


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> we shall see. we shall see. I hope so.



Hope springs eternal for people in prison.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

Agnapostate said:


> Of course not. That's why the Mexican government should be overthrown by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation. Twas' a shame their Chiapas campaign failed.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a former poster on Stormfront...though I'm far from being a white supremacist. I was mostly there to irk them until I got permabanned.



You're a feisty fellow to post on Stormfront just to irk them.  Some of those folks are dangerous.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 14, 2008)

strollingbones said:


> lol@anyone taking directions from david duke..and how the hell did he get the doctor in front of his name?



It's one of those *P*iled *H*igher and *D*eeper awards.


----------



## Agnapostate (Nov 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You're a feisty fellow to post on Stormfront just to irk them.  Some of those folks are dangerous.



Pfffft. I'm dangerous. They complain when the left doesn't like guns, but they don't like the fact that I do.


----------



## sky dancer (Nov 15, 2008)

Are you trying to be the stuff of their nightmares?  A armed leftist guerilla?


----------



## Agnapostate (Nov 15, 2008)

I can only hope so. Even if it's more in their minds than anything else.


----------



## RoadVirus (Nov 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> The border patrol agents broke the law.


They shot a drug smuggler in the ass...big f-ing deal. Smugglers of drugs and illegals take potshots at our BP agents all the time and it barely makes the damn news.


----------



## eots (Nov 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> The border patrol agents broke the law.  They were arrested, tried, convicted by a unanimous jury of their peers and sentenced.  They had appeals.  All appeals failed.  Their convictions and sentences have been upheld.
> 
> End of story.
> 
> ...



uh...hmmm..lets see.._sky dancer_...left wing fascist..who doesn't like fishing or guns..thinks shes really nice...wants to leave a _small carbon footprint_ and _feels _for the _illegal aliens.. _and as long as it is _meanie border patrol guys_ ...blindly trust the government and justice system...


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 15, 2008)

Agnapostate said:


> I'm a former poster on Stormfront...though I'm far from being a white supremacist. I was mostly there to irk them until I got permabanned.



I post sometimes on Stormfront.

They are very knowledgable on specifics of the Holohoax and the evils of Zionism.


----------

