# Democrats Deny These Immigration Truths



## longknife (Dec 13, 2018)

*Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*


*If that’s the case, why don’t the Dims want to defend this country against foreign invaders? Criminals who disobey the very laws they’ve enacted?*

_Now, Democrats are going to say, “Why is the government arresting hardworking immigrants? They are just seeking a better way of life.” Well, this is a simple, twofold answer. One, they are not here legally. Two, and just as important, they are taking jobs that hardworking Americans do not have access to._

_Let’s hope that Trump is successful before Christmas in getting the wall funded. And let’s hope Congress finally gets its act together and remembers the meaning of that oath that they all took._

More @ Democrats Deny These Immigration Truths


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## harmonica (Dec 13, 2018)

this is not 1850 anymore


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## Dan Stubbs (Dec 14, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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> *If that’s the case, why don’t the Dims want to defend this country against foreign invaders? Criminals who disobey the very laws they’ve enacted?*
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*They have set their goals and will not derivative from them.  Changing the Constitution to their own format, no guns, no rights.  Making this Nation, a Socialist Nation with open borders.  Having the Globalist rich running politicians at the local government level.  This is what is in the future unless something happens.   *


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## BlackFlag (Dec 14, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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> *If that’s the case, why don’t the Dims want to defend this country against foreign invaders? Criminals who disobey the very laws they’ve enacted?*
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6.7 million job openings, and record low unemployment.  If an illegal is taking your job, then you are a piss poor excuse for an American.

There are more jobs than people out of work, something the American economy has never experienced before


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## otto105 (Dec 14, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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> *If that’s the case, why don’t the Dims want to defend this country against foreign invaders? Criminals who disobey the very laws they’ve enacted?*
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Asylum is not part of the Constitution?


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 14, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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   So you're saying mexicans are stupid?
Here's the thing you lefty douchebags always leave out when discussing illegal immigration.....they eventually get amnesty and compete with Americans mainly in the blue collar sector.
   When I call someone to come out and fix my refrigerator? Mexican,same for my A/C,plumbing and every other blue collar job.
   The funny part? They're taking jobs away from blacks far more than they are from whites.

   Enjoy!!


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## BlackFlag (Dec 14, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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The only people I'm calling stupid are the ones who can't find a job despite 7 million job openings and blame their personal failures on the desperate family fleeing for their lives.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 14, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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   Aaaaaand you totally ignored my point.
I dont think I've heard anyone say they cant get a job.
    The problem arises when these people get amnesty and will work for far less than an American.
   When I first started machining in around 84 there were maybe 5% hispanics in shops. By the time I retired the number was around 65%. This of course drove down wages because the majority were sending their money back to mexico so they could retire in comfort for cheap.
  Add the fact that this money isnt being spent in the US thus fucking the tax base and the local economy.

    You'd have to be a complete idiot not to see the pattern.


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## BlackFlag (Dec 14, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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When you first started machining in '84, a hell of a lot more machinists were needed to do machining.  Before computers we know today, a "computer" was a woman witha pen and paper or sitting at a switchboard.  Is her job gone because illegals took it, or because it is no longer needed?


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 14, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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   What a load of horseshit.
You dont know shit about machining.
 The NC machine dates back to the 40's.  This one is from 52.




  Why would you presume to know more about machining than a machinist?


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## BlackFlag (Dec 14, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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I guess I'm wrong, and a desperate illegal fleeing 3rd world warfare has just as many skills as you do.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 14, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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  Holy fuck you're stupid!!!
Do you think they dont have machine shops in mexico?


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## BlackFlag (Dec 14, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Must be how they got your skills.  Easy labor.  Hey, maybe you can get a job in Mexico!


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## rightwinger (Dec 14, 2018)

Nothing in the constitution about immigration


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## rightwinger (Dec 14, 2018)

They are not invaders they are trespassers


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 14, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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  Again you try and talk about something you know nothing about.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 14, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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   Easy?
You couldnt have done my job without 20 years of experience if ever.
    I made flight hardware for the shuttle program,prototype work for the F-22 Raptor,artificial hearts and a host of other things that your pea brain couldnt even begin to comprehend.
   You could give me a 3x3 chunk of aluminium and I could make you an engine block from scratch......and that would be an easy job.


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## danielpalos (Dec 14, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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This is our supreme law of the land:  _To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization
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We have a refugee issue along out border not a common defense issue.


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## Pete7469 (Dec 14, 2018)

Democrooks deny every truth if it's counter to their programming. The collectivist agenda is their religion.


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## Pete7469 (Dec 14, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> You'd have to be a complete idiot not to see the pattern.




You've correctly diagnosed the problem.


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## otto105 (Dec 14, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> They are not invaders they are trespassers



Or asylum seekers


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## LilOlLady (Dec 16, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Then why don't they stay in Mexico and work in them?


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## LilOlLady (Dec 16, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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Let them stay in the 3rd world country and fight for their country as we have done with much blood, sweat, and tears. Because they are F#% cowards and want what we have without the cost. Make American great for Americans ...who are suffering from poverty, homelessness, etc. We have enough hungry, homeless kids and vets and they should come first. We have poor kids from families who cannot afford a higher education.  Jesus said.....Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 16, 2018)

LilOlLady said:


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   You really have to ask that?


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## LilOlLady (Dec 17, 2018)

Since 1994, about *10,000* people have died in their attempt to cross the border and it is because of our broken immigration with open borders that Democrats support. If not for those long-standing policy that if they cross they can stay they would stop risking their lives and come in at the port of entry. Poverty should not be criteria for seeking asylum because half the world lives in poverty and GOD said the "poor will always be among us" Stop having all those babies if you do not have food and water to take care of them. Possible the child that died, died from something she ate but you cannot blame the border patrols.


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## longknife (Dec 17, 2018)

*For decades, we've allow legals to come here to take advantage of our failure to control job reporting and giving out welfare. Illegals have sent billions back home to their families, taking away from our own economy and sending the message of how much better their lives would be if they came here.*

*I think one of the biggest and best steps to stop the flow of illegals is quite simple - If you can't show proof of being here legally and you want to send money to a foreign country - pay a tax on it!!! Use that tax to support I.C.E. and border security. *


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 17, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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> *If that’s the case, why don’t the Dims want to defend this country against foreign invaders? Criminals who disobey the very laws they’ve enacted?*
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I read your link very carefully.  I considered all that you had to say in the opening post.  There is no doubt that the left is disgusting and sickening.  It's hard to look at Chuck Schumer and not want to throw up.  There is still something wrong with your post.

Doesn't it seem strange to you that the Democrats wanted to curtail immigration before the Republicans got on the bandwagon?  Doesn't it also seem odd that after 9 / 11 the self proclaimed Minutemen reintroduced a program that David Duke, a neo - nazi and former KKK leader, had employed in the 1970s?  Do you not take issue with the fact that those Minutemen, who cause was taken up by the Tea Party, rely on the same organizations that David Duke did for their talking points?

Having read the economic angle on this board and some others a few times, it appeared telling that when anyone questions the theory you brought forward, the belief that undocumented immigrants are costing this country, the conversation goes south and abruptly ends.  Sometimes posts are even deleted.  What, precisely, is the truth?  

From everything I've witnessed the truth is not being told and when someone tries, the discussion takes on a personal tone.  Sometimes the solution appears to be a solution looking for a problem to solve.  Every non-partisan study  concludes that if undocumented foreigners end up costing us anything (you must acknowledge the fact that they work and produce wealth) the amount is modest. Therefore, arguing this from a purely economic angle, you don't have much of a case in Congress.  You might be able to convince each other on a discussion board.  You may have the ability to censor those who question your beliefs. The truth is very hard to accept.  Spending five billion dollars in initial start up costs, relinquishing many of your rights, and then only addressing a portion of the problem doesn't make much sense when you apply a few accounting principles to the situation.

That does not mean there is not a problem.  It's just that your truths, as you like to call them, cannot pass critical review.  In my opinion, which is also the consensus in Congress, you have failed to state a case upon which relief can be granted.  What, precisely, is the truth?  You could start at the beginning and explain why this fight means so much to you.  Once you do that, I'd like to ask you about my opening observations.  Is it possible that think tank groups like the Council on Foreign Relations have fooled you and conned you into working within a strategy that is aimed at conning you into supporting your own demise?


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

LilOlLady said:


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it is Our drug war that is destabilizing the region.


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

LilOlLady said:


> Since 1994, about *10,000* people have died in their attempt to cross the border and it is because of our broken immigration with open borders that Democrats support. If not for those long-standing policy that if they cross they can stay they would stop risking their lives and come in at the port of entry. Poverty should not be criteria for seeking asylum because half the world lives in poverty and GOD said the "poor will always be among us" Stop having all those babies if you do not have food and water to take care of them. Possible the child that died, died from something she ate but you cannot blame the border patrols.


upgrading Ellis Island would be more cost effective.  an open market is much more convenient.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 17, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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It is the Americans appetite for drugs that fuels immigration. Our drug users create the need for cartels.  The unemployable, that is those with a drug habit and a criminal record, create the supposed need for foreign labor.


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## sealybobo (Dec 17, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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Do you realize that half your party is against you on this?  And it's not that they want terrorists to come in.  They just want the cheap labor to keep coming.

I have to admit I was taken back when I read this article from a liberal who wrote it back in 2006.  After reading it you will understand it's not us liberals who disagree with you on legal or illegal immigration

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

And yes, even Hillary is a part of the problem.  Hillary was never a true liberal.  She was a corporate DINO.  She and Democrats are part of the problem too.


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## sealybobo (Dec 17, 2018)

LilOlLady said:


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And by us continuing to take their unemployed and underpaid, we allow Mexico to stay corrupt where workers aren't paid shit.  If we stop taking them in then Mexico will be forced to pay their citizens better or else they might revolt/organize.  

No need to if the border is open.


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## sealybobo (Dec 17, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> They are not invaders they are trespassers


Bullshit.  When we catch one 10 years from now and he has a family living here he is not going to be called trespasser and people will cry foul if you try to send him back.

So how many years until a trespasser becomes an invader?


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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There is no power to Prohibit since the Repeal of that Bad idea, last millennium.


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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those policies only create more refugees.


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Our welfare clause is General.  Where is the specific power to establish walls?


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## Taz (Dec 17, 2018)

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What is it about securing our borders that you hate?


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 17, 2018)

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You can stop the government from being the primary purveyor in the promotion of pot and opioids along with other hard core drugs.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 17, 2018)

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Don't you think a much more important question is: When does the wall idea along with its enforcement, not to mention lost Liberty become a valid topic for discussion?

Everybody wants a secure border.  They also want Freedom and Liberty.  So how much Liberty and how much Security?  Those in favor of the wall would relinquish their Liberty and even accept gun control in exchange for the wall.


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## sealybobo (Dec 17, 2018)

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I'm not following you.  I don't think a wall is necessary.  But we are not doing ourselves any favors by continuing the status quo.  If we need more immigrants, import them legally.

What I think you will find is both the corporate Democrats and Corporate Republicans want to flood our markets regardless of if it's legal or illegal immigration.  The corporations they serve want lots of candidates to be able to choose from.  That way wages stay down.

Hell, wages are flat even though unemployment is still really low.  Even though corporations can't find enough good help, they refuse to raise their wages.  Instead they would rather just lobby for immigration reform.

And we even see Republicans shifting their position back to making excuses why they are actually all for legal immigration.  It's a good thing they say.  Don't worry about the fact that wages haven't gone up.  They never will.  That was just campaign year talk.

Seriously, did you read this op ed? Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

Thom explains how illegal immigration is bad and how it was unions who were warning us long before Trump came around.  I remember feeling betrayed when Clinton signed NAFTA.  And now I feel the Democrats have lost the union vote because we have lost touch with the fact that illegals are ruining the middle class.  Trump took the issue and made it his.  Now you have to stop arguing against Republicans on this because THIS used to be our position on illegals.  What now you defend them?


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## sealybobo (Dec 17, 2018)

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Correct.  I want border security too I just don't think a wall to match Trump's ego is the right answer.  In fact I know it's not.  

But I don't mind putting our troops down on the border.

How does a wall affect your Liberty?


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

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We don't have a common defense problem.  We have a refugee problem.


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

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We subscribe to capitalism.  We should have no illegal problem. Only lousy capitalists lose money on border policy.


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## Taz (Dec 17, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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So if a wall goes up, what liberty are you losing?


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## Taz (Dec 17, 2018)

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So you think that our borders shouldn’t be secure? What bean country were you born in?


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

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We don't have a common defense problem.  The Proof is, we have Tax Cut economics not really really serious wartime tax rates.


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## Taz (Dec 17, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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Common with Messiko? Who fucking cares? People were pouring over our border, so we secured it. What’s the problem?


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

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this is an express power:  _To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization
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Our welfare clause is General and we have a commerce clause.  

We don't have a common defense issue on our border.


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## Taz (Dec 17, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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You’re not making any sense. Wtf are you talking about?


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## danielpalos (Dec 17, 2018)

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how dumb do we have to write it for the right wing?


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 17, 2018)

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How does it NOT affect your Liberty?

1)  Go back to my original post on this subject.  The right was solidly against National ID prior to 9 / 11 and the subject of foreigners.  The right is now THE voice for Orwellian surveillance and control

2)  There is enforcement of the Constitution Free Zone

3)  Employers are being threatened for hiring foreigners with the right claiming the foreigners are stealing our (sic) jobs.  Your Liberty is dependent on the free market.  The jobs are not yours.  They belong to the person who creates them

4)  Due to the people who began the wall rhetoric, private property owners are no longer allowed to defend their own private property

5)  The forced use of National ID nullified the Fourth Amendment

6)  The right is trying to imply one must be a citizen in order to have rights.  If that is the case, the government is the entity which gives you your rights.  That is clearly not what the founders said.  Placing your rights into the hands of government means you may no longer claim them.  They are mere privileges to be doled out by your government benefactors.

How many Liberties do you want me to list?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 17, 2018)

Dan Stubbs said:


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Conspiracy Postulate* ^^^ which offers not one scintilla of evidence.

However, a very well developed paragraph which includes the allegations spewed from the tongue and twitter account of Donald Trump.

*Postulate:    Postulates and Theorems


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## Taz (Dec 17, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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Try making sense for a start. Wtf do welfare and commerce clauses have to do with our border? Or a common defense issue? With whom? Why would we need a common issue?


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## otto105 (Dec 17, 2018)

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Christ, still waxing about the 1880-1930 America when we did have fairly open and an actual immigration policy.


Which destroyed our country....


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## Syriusly (Dec 18, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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Why do Republicans deny these immigration truths?

Most illegal immigrants are good hard working people and are only here because Americans will hire them.

Oh and that no wall will prevent the majority of illegal immigration but it sure is a good way for Trump to fire up his base who like 'simple' answer- rather than actually addressing border security and the tough immigration issues.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

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You sound like a Russian troll.

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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

Syriusly said:


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So a wall that exists is no wall?


Just admit it you will fund killing babies, but have a huge problem if trump gets funding to finish a wall.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

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Is that supposed to be an insult?  Remember everyone, Russia is on Trump's side in this discussion.


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

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there is no wall building power.


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## Taz (Dec 18, 2018)

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Fortifying our borders is a government responsibility. I personally think they should simply mine the border and put up Messikin pictograms. Then sit back and watch the tacos fly!


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

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Our welfare clause is General not Common.  There is no express wall building power.  We should be upgrading Ellis Island to accomplish the express powers delegated to our federal Government:  _To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization_


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## Taz (Dec 18, 2018)

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"Our welfare clause is General not Common." Why do you keep saying this? What's the relevance? What does it even fucking mean?

You want unlimited immigration, that'll doom our country, we're a dumb enough country as it is. And overpopulated. With imbeciles. Kinda like you.


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

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a general power applies in this case, not a common power. 

This is what Congress is supposed to be doing:  _To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization
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There is no express wall building power.  We should be upgrading Ellis Island and surrounding infrastructure and generating revenue via our Commerce Clause.


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

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Employers should be threatened if they are hiring illegals.  I've been saying for how long now it's not an illegal immigrant problem it's an illegal employer problem.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

I'm a very liberal person but you are now dug in to argue against anything the conservatives say.

Did you read the other op ed I posted the other day?  I'll post the part I'm hoping you saw:

Shouldn't we be compassionate? Of course.

But there is nothing compassionate about driving down the wages of any nation's middle class. It's the most cynical, self-serving, greedy, and sociopathic behavior you'll see from our "conservatives."

There is nothing compassionate about being the national enabler of a dysfunctional oligarchy like Mexico. An illegal workforce in the US sending an estimated $17 billion to Mexico every year - second only in national income to that country's oil revenues - supports an antidemocratic, anti-worker, hyperconservative administration there that gleefully ships out of that nation the "troublesome" Mexican citizens - those lowest on the economic food-chain and thus most likely to present "labor unrest" - to the USA. Mexico (and other "sending nations") need not deal with their own social and economic problems so long as we're willing to solve them for them - at the expense of our middle class. Democracy in Central and South America be damned - there are profits to be made for Wal-Mart!

Similarly, there is nothing compassionate about handing higher profits (through a larger and thus cheaper work force) to the CEOs of America's largest corporations and our now-experiencing-record-profits construction and agriculture industries.

What about caring for people in need? Isn't that the universal religious/ethical value? Of course.

A few years ago, when my family and I were visiting Europe, one of our children fell sick. A doctor came to the home of the people we were staying with, visited our child at 11 pm on a weeknight, left behind a course of antibiotics, and charged nothing. It was paid for by that nation's universal health care system. We should offer the same to any human being in need of medical care - a universal human right - in the United States.

But if I'd applied to that nation I was visiting for a monthly unemployment or retirement check, I would have been laughed out of the local government office. And if I'd been caught working there, I would have been deported within a week. Caring for people in crisis/need is very different from giving a job or a monthly welfare check to non-citizens. No nation - even those in Central and South America - will do that. And neither should the United States.


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
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> *If that’s the case, why don’t the Dims want to defend this country against foreign invaders? Criminals who disobey the very laws they’ve enacted?*
> ...



Just to be clear, the ultra left wing liberals here who are defending illegal immigrants are not speaking for all of us liberals.  And you Republicans might be surprised to know that us moderate liberals agree with you more than you know.  In fact we were talking like you were talking in 2006 back when YOU guys were defending illegals.  You, Bush, McCain and Romney were all saying JOBS AMERICANS WON'T DO.  

Read the entire op ed.  It was written in 2006.  Back then we sounded a lot like Trump does today

Shouldn't we be compassionate? Of course.

But there is nothing compassionate about driving down the wages of any nation's middle class. It's the most cynical, self-serving, greedy, and sociopathic behavior you'll see from our "conservatives."

There is nothing compassionate about being the national enabler of a dysfunctional oligarchy like Mexico. An illegal workforce in the US sending an estimated $17 billion to Mexico every year - second only in national income to that country's oil revenues - supports an antidemocratic, anti-worker, hyperconservative administration there that gleefully ships out of that nation the "troublesome" Mexican citizens - those lowest on the economic food-chain and thus most likely to present "labor unrest" - to the USA. Mexico (and other "sending nations") need not deal with their own social and economic problems so long as we're willing to solve them for them - at the expense of our middle class. Democracy in Central and South America be damned - there are profits to be made for Wal-Mart!

Similarly, there is nothing compassionate about handing higher profits (through a larger and thus cheaper work force) to the CEOs of America's largest corporations and our now-experiencing-record-profits construction and agriculture industries.

What about caring for people in need? Isn't that the universal religious/ethical value? Of course.

A few years ago, when my family and I were visiting Europe, one of our children fell sick. A doctor came to the home of the people we were staying with, visited our child at 11 pm on a weeknight, left behind a course of antibiotics, and charged nothing. It was paid for by that nation's universal health care system. We should offer the same to any human being in need of medical care - a universal human right - in the United States.

But if I'd applied to that nation I was visiting for a monthly unemployment or retirement check, I would have been laughed out of the local government office. And if I'd been caught working there, I would have been deported within a week. Caring for people in crisis/need is very different from giving a job or a monthly welfare check to non-citizens. No nation - even those in Central and South America - will do that. And neither should the United States.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Entry into the Union is a federal obligation not a private sector obligation.  All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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You are not paying attention.  Granted, I am not in favor of the conservatives solution, but I am equally opposed to the liberals solution as it is one and the same.

You are arguing for a wall on the pretext that it will prevent people from coming here.  It will do no such thing.  The United States is not Mexico, China, and we are not at war with the Israelis.  So, the analogies made by the right don't fly.

Can you not understand that I agree there is a problem, but disagree with you on finding the right solution?  How can that be so hard to understand?  If you go back twenty years ago, the conservatives were AGAINST the NEW WORLD ORDER, One World Government, the surveillance society, National ID, the assaults on the Fourth Amendment, the Constitution Free Zone, the assaults on private property, massive record keeping, the government dictating to employers who they can and cannot hire, and the concept that humans derive their rights by way of government.

Today, the conservatives have gone 180 degrees opposite of what they believed in a mere 25 years ago.  Yet 25 years ago, the conservatives were on a path to saving America.  After 9 / 11 the liberals flipped the conservatives and conned the conservatives into taking up their battle cry.  It was the wrong cry back then and it is the wrong cry today.  The right is being played by the left with the left getting a double win in the process.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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In order for that idea to work, the Citizenry must also carry a National ID Card.  It's kind of like that guy that wanted people to have a tattoo so you'd know who they are.


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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States have State ids.  States should not be issuing State ids to foreign nationals.


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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What do you mean obligation?  We are not obligated to take anyone into the union.


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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And you and I have a lot more in common and agree on a lot more than they want us to realize.

So instead of focusing on what we agree on they'll try to divide us.  Look at the flaming liberal on this site.  Apparently arguing for the illegals and suggesting what they are being used for isn't really hurting Americans.


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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this is the actual power delegated to Congress:  _To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization_


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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Yea, and to set the numbers at a reasonable level.  So if we have too many people and not enough jobs, we don't take as many immigrants that year.  

There job isn't to take in as many that want to come.  They have the right to say no.  We have the right to say no.

Just because dealing with immigration is a thing Congress has to deal with does not mean we are obligated to take anyone in.  We could stop taking everyone in tomorrow.

For example, what if we took 10,000 people a year from West Africa.  Would we have been obligated to take them in during the 2014-2016 Ebola outbreak?  

Ah so what you are saying is that circumstances dictate how many we take in?  Got it.


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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we have a general welfare clause not a general warfare clause.  why complain about refugees.


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## hadit (Dec 18, 2018)

Taz said:


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Welcome to Daniel's strange, strange world.


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

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What are refugees?  They seem to be people who aren't going through the normal channels of coming to this country.  They claim it's too dangerous where they live?  Then deal with it.  Same with the arab men fleeing their countries and giving it all to the taliban, al queda and ISIS when they run.  Stay and fight for your country.

Central America couldn’t take it anymore.” That’s how Ruben Figueroa describes the October exodus of thousands of people from Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala fleeing north. “After decades of US intervention, chronic poverty, corruption, and structural violence, Central America just couldn’t take it.”

So every year we have to take in the ones who can't take it?  How about they clean up the shit holes they come from and don't come here?

I'm a liberal but even I get it.


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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What is Juan Orlando Hernández doing about the chronic poverty, corruption, and structural violence in his country?  Why do we have to deal with the chronic poverty, corruption, and structural violence in Honduras?


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

hadit said:


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Now I see why you guys get so frustrated with liberals.  Trust me we don't all defend sanctuary cities and illegal immigrants.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Nobody is taking advantage of foreign laborers.  They do hard work at a cheap price.  We cannot point a finger at profiteers and complain.  Those of us, myself included, buy products and use services wherein foreign labor is utilized.  Do we make our buying decisions based upon the legal issue of someone's immigration status?

The liberals may try to divide people like you and I.  The conservatives will scream that I'm a liberal because the wall is not the only solution we should discuss.  

Personally, I'm mad because it's been arranged so that many Americans are locked out of the job market and they're being programmed, Pavlovian style, to be dependent upon government until their demise.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Why does it matter whether or not a state allows foreigners to come and go?  It should encourage us to force Congress to turn welfare over to the states.  That way, if California wants to be a sanctuary state and they can afford it, that is their business.

The next step we should take is to make sure that the benefits and privileges like welfare, education, etc. are benefits of citizenship and the government cannot dole that money to out to ANY non-citizen.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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Uhm because illegaI rapist and killer Mexicans cross state lines with ease?



.
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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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The reason why thirty years ago unions fought against illegal immigration was because they understood the simple reality that labor rises and falls in price as a function of availability.  More workers, lower wages. Fewer workers, higher wages.

We fought for laws that would regulate immigration into the United States to a small enough flow that it wouldn't dilute the labor pool.  The first laws creating a quota for immigrants were passed in the 1920s, in response to a sense that the country could no longer absorb large numbers of unskilled workers, despite pleas by big business that it wanted the new workers.

Do a little math. There are 7.6 million unemployed Americans and at the same time 15 million illegals working here diluting our labor pool.  If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Every nation has an obligation to limit immigration to a number that will not dilute its workforce if it wants to maintain a stable middle class.  This has nothing to do with race but everything to do with economics.

The simple way to do this today is to require that _all_ non-refugee immigrants go through the same process to become American citizens or legal workers in this country (no amnesties, no "guest workers," no "legalizations") regardless of how they got here and to confront employers who hire illegals with draconian financial and criminal penalties.

As long as employers are willing and able (without severe penalties) to hire illegal workers, people will risk life and limb to grab at the America Dream. When we stop hiring and paying them, most will leave. 

This is, after all, the middle-class "American Dream." And how much better this hemisphere would be if Central and South Americans were motivated to stay in their own nations (because no employer in the US would dare hire them) and fight _there_ for a Mexican Dream and a Salvadoran Dream and a Guatemalan Dream (and so on).


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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So you want to spend a trillion dollars building a wall that will stop 2 murders and 4 rapes a year?  Ridiculous.

But, are you even following this guys thinking?  He's all over the place.  Why does it matter if a state lets foreigners come and go?  Foreigners can come and go anywhere they want in the USA if they have a visitor visa.  What they can't do is work.  If they work the employer should go to jail.  That way no employer would dare hire an illegal.  

And how does turning welfare over to the states have anything to do with this?   

Anyways, Mexican rapists and murderers come here to work.  Rape is just a bonus.  

*Suspect in Mollie Tibbetts’ murder worked on farm owned by Iowa GOP family for 4 years*

*“This individual has worked at our farms for four years, was vetted through the government’s E-Verify system, and was an employee in good standing,” the statement read.

“Yarrabee Farms follows all laws related to verifying employees are legal to work in the United States.”

And actually they lied.  They did not use Everify.  They used a less reliable verification system and imo they knew he gave them a fake id.  We can do better people.  
*


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## hadit (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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A trillion for the wall?  Not even close. Please at least be a little more accurate.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Wait so you don't value human life? 

You have no problem with rape and murder??



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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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And you just admitted Illegal Mexicans are rapist and killers .

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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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they all should be processed on a case by case basis.  our welfare clause is general.  

where is the wall building clause?


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## danielpalos (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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our drug war.


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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Corporations react the exact same way I just did. If it’s millions of dollars to stop a couple rapes and murders, it’s not worth building the fucking wall. 

We are running the country like a business now. If it don’t make dollars it don’t make sense. We pay soldiers to train for fighting in deserts. Put them on the border.

Why don’t Europeans need walls? Their employers wouldn’t dare hire illegals


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## sealybobo (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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Not the point captain deflector


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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So Americans should not be able to travel from state to state for the same reason.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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To complicated for you? One state can't be lawless ..


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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I fully disagree with you.

In the 1950s the feds started Operation Wetback.  In less than five years of rounding up foreigners and shipping them home our unemployment rate doubled.  It is a different economics lesson, but what you bring to the table is easily answered.

Where do you suppose that the American workers are today?

"the total number of persons in the adult correctional systems had fallen to 6,851,000 persons, approximately 52,200 fewer offenders than at the year end of 2013 as reported by the BJS. About 1 in 36 adults (or 2.8% of adults in the US) were under some form of correctional supervision"

Incarceration in the United States - Wikipedia

“Drug use is on the rise in this country and 23.5 million Americans are addicted to alcohol and drugs. That’s approximately one in every 10 Americans over the age of 12 – roughly equal to the entire population of Texas.  But only 11 percent of those with an addiction receive treatment."

New Data Show Millions of Americans with Alcohol and Drug Addiction Could Benefit from Health Care Reform - Where Families Find Answers on Substance Use | Partnership for Drug-Free Kids

There is quite a bit of overlap, but drug using Americans with a criminal record find themselves unemployable and end up on government assistance.  The parents allow of a lot of those people allow them to sponge off mom and dad.  Between that and government giving them a debit card for food, these people have no incentive to work.

The standard canard of the right is that foreigners are stealing jobs (that is a socialist argument, btw), when in reality, many Americans are unemployable due to background checks that are irrelevant to most jobs AND parents mollycoddling their now middle age "children" whilst they suck off the government teat.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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"I'm all over the place?"  Are you kidding?  The position I'm taking is the only one that is different.  Liberals and conservatives alike are unified in their thinking.  They simply are not paying attention to one another.  

I'm an individual that believes in the Constitution as originally written and intended.  That means that all people have unalienable Rights.  When an employer creates a job, it is his.  It is his personal property.  He may give it to whomever he pleases.  Any law that contradicts that is in conflict with the original interpretation of the Constitution.  Both the liberals and conservatives DO NOT support the Right of private property.  

Within six months of the ratification of the Constitution, we had federal laws on the books extending citizenship to whites only.  Despite that, people came from all over the world to engage in lawful pursuits.  

Here is what you don't seem to grasp.  If employers were allowed to hire who they thought was the best person for the job, there would be no laws that guaranteed ANYONE a job... no racial quotas, no special treatment for LGBQT community, no laws forcing employers to hire X number of black people, Y number of women, or Z number of Muslims.  When foreigners accept a job from an American, it is a private matter between the person who owns the job and the individual that applies for it.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

hadit said:


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Those who want the wall will never engage in a Cost / Benefits Analysis of the startup costs and maintenance costs versus the promised benefit relative to what they claim foreigners are costing us.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Maybe the employers in European countries don't have all the anti-discrimination laws the U.S. imposes.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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You do we already have a wall right, why do you hate it?

.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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So, if New York bans high capacity magazines, then Georgia should do likewise?  Is that your theory of law?


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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We are talking federal law, California can't risk the life of someone in Indiana.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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Have you been following my posts?  Take your pick:

1)  The wall idea cannot be enforced without National ID - and then there comes the pretext for 24 / 7 / 365 surveillance and monitoring of every individual in the U.S

2)  The Constitution Free Zone

3)  The peripheral laws surrounding the nutty wall prevent private property owners from protecting their own property

4)  Enforcement of the wall results in a repeal of the Bill of Rights

5)  The idea that foreigners cannot take a job willingly offered has ended up with the right making this bogus argument that foreigners are stealing jobs.  Did the public own the jobs?  No.  The right is making a socialist argument.

How many reasons do you want and how many times do I have to post them on this thread?


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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WTF?

What kind of screw ball are you?


We already have a fucking wall .


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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*The idea that foreigners cannot take a job willingly offered has ended up with the right making this bogus argument that foreigners are stealing jobs. Did the public own the jobs? No. The right is making a socialist argument.
*



How can they take a job if they dont live here? 


.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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Why do you want to take this conversation south?  If we already have a wall, how come we're discussing the subject?


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

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If you had a skill set that the Saudis were willing to triple your salary for if you came to work on Jan 5 of next year, you'd figure a way to get there - and NO, they do not expect you to become a citizen.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

harmonica said:


> this is not 1850 anymore



1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all _is_ vanity.

3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

4 _One_ generation passeth away, and _another_ generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea _is_ not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

8 All things _are_ full of labour; man cannot utter _it_: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

9 The thing that hath been, it _is that_ which shall be; and that which is done _is_ that which shall be done: and _there is_ no new _thing_ under the sun.

10 Is there _any_ thing whereof it may be said, See, this _is_ new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11 _There is_ no remembrance of former _things_; neither shall there be _any_ remembrance of _things_ that are to come with _those_ that shall come after.

12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all _things_ that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all _is_ vanity and vexation of spirit.

15 _That which is_ crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all _they_ that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.

17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

18 For in much wisdom _is_ much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.   Ecclesiastes  Chapter 1


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

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Because you are stupid?


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

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Uhm you are stupid, the Saudis could pay me 10 billion dollars and I still wouldn't live there .


The idea of being cut up alive dosnt appeal to me.

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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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I see no evidence of that.  But here is the thing:

I called a plumber to install an overflow valve on a water heater.  I'd have done the job myself, but I had just come home from surgery.  I had the part.

The plumber takes almost twenty minutes to come back with an "estimate" of $245 and a service fee of $50.  I gave him $50 for coming out and told him he better be off my property in thirty seconds.

A guy comes along off Craigslist and does the job for $30 and it's done in ten minutes.  American workers think they should be paid a surgeon's wages for a skill set that takes two years to learn.  Let me ask you:  If the county wanted you to upgrade your home or lose it and you could not afford it, would you hire someone that didn't have papers OR lose your home?


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 18, 2018)

bear513 said:


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If your family were hungry, it would appeal to you.  You just don't want to answer the question and it's easier to call me names.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

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That's why we have dear to hunt here 

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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2018)

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So you like exploiting brown people for cheap labor that undercuts American workers ..

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## danielpalos (Dec 19, 2018)

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Upgrading Ellis Island is more cost effective.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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Then import them legally. The same way legal immigrants had to get in, they should all have to do the same.

Even the ones here now. No shortcuts, amnesty or guest workers.


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## hadit (Dec 19, 2018)

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How and why are they going to get there when they can just walk across the border?


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## danielpalos (Dec 19, 2018)

hadit said:


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They can get a federal id. at Ellis Island.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

bear513 said:


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So, if someone has an opinion that is different from yours, they are stupid?  Oh, I get it.  God died and left you in charge.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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There is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives Congress, the President, or even the United States Supreme Court the authority to keep people from coming into the United States in order to conduct lawful activities.  

The only legitimate - constitutional - de jure authority the federal government has over immigrants is that Congress is required to make an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

It is lawful to secure a border and regulate the flow of people coming in and out, but let's face the truth here:  that is NOT what you want to do.  You want to BAN people from coming in - PERIOD.  The alternative argument is that those in favor of a wall want people to become citizens in order to have any rights and / or those wanting the wall would employ a quota system and that would discriminate against employers.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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I don't want to ban anyone.  When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in.  We let in the number that we need.  No more.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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   What state do you live in?


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Where I live there are plenty of jobs doing handyman work, landscape work, etc. for $25 to $40 an hour or so.  NOBODY wants the jobs.  It's easier to get a free ride from the government while living in their parent's home.  Nobody wants to be an entrepreneur.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Georgia


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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    They'll be there soon,just wait.
Here in Texas I watched hispanics go from 5% to around 65% in machine shops from 1984 to 2012.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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This is why I like the GOP's welfare reform.  This country does have too many people on disability.  Too many who if they didn't have disability would figure it out on their own.  I agree.

I used to argue back "corporate welfare is more!" but corporations keep the lights on.  Poor people can't say their welfare is a drop in the bucket when we spend $100 billion a year on it.  

Imagine what we could do with that $100 billion.  Pay off the debt?  And then those people would be working too so they'd be paying taxes, which could also be used to pay down the debt.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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Then we should send out a flyer to Mexico saying help wanted in your town.  Any laborer who wants to work where you live should apply to become a citizen because your town needs workers you can not find.  

But they must legal citizens who pay taxes.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Georgia ranks fourth or fifth in the number of undocumented foreigners  in the United States.  There are plenty of jobs and nobody wants to do them.  Those on limited incomes are dependent just as much as big corporations for their services.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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  Wait till you have 1.7 million of em.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Here is the whole issue for me.  NOBODY needs to become a citizen in order to work here.  For me that is THE issue.  Look, if you're going to make citizens out of everyone who comes here to work, pretty soon they will outvote you and this discussion becomes moot.

Taxes:  According to the Chief Actuary of the SSA, about 75 percent of the undocumented foreigners pay the income tax.  That is the ONLY tax you can argue.   We had that war won BEFORE the conservatives got flipped by globalists.  Had the FAIR Tax been debated a few times in Congress, a way to end the income tax and repeal the 16th Amendment would have resulted.

Instead, we falsely accused the undocumented foreigners of not paying taxes.  That gave a pretext to use the SSN for your National ID AND continue imposing the income tax - which is a graduated tax much like the one found in the Communist Manifesto.

Pay taxes?  Yes, if you're subject to them.  Citizenship?  HELL NO.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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While we have only 375,000 undocumented immigrants here, they still constitute 3.6 percent of the state's population. 

If you think they come to Texas for the government freebies, then make those freebies available to citizens only.  If you think it's due to the drug trade, work on getting the government out of the drug business.  Government is the greatest enabler for drugs.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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And Trump initially started off lying to us about Mexico paying for the wall

Trump, beginning during his 2016 campaign, would frequently ask supporters at his rallies: “Who’s going to pay for the wall?” They would shout back: “Mexico.” Trump lately seems to have abandoned the promise, and has been demanding Congress give him $5 billion from U.S. taxpayers for the wall.

Next year at Trump rallies Don will ask "who's gonna pay for the wall?" and his sheep will reply 

Crowd: Mexico indirectly through the new USMCA replacement for NAFTA!!
Trump: Who??
Crowd: Mexico indirectly through the new ...

Twitter Users Think Donald Trump Just Tweeted A Weird New Rally Chant For Supporters | HuffPost


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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Sorry I'm not going to go round and round with you.  I gave plenty of reasons why too many immigrants hurts the middle class and how illegal immigrants are even worse.  You don't want to believe it that's fine but everyone with a brain knows too many workers means lower wages and not enough workers means wages go up.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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I don't get what you are saying.  

https://nypost.com/2018/08/22/suspe...rder-worked-on-farm-owned-by-iowa-gop-family/

You don't see the problem with this farm employing illegals?

And you are repeating a lie.  There are no jobs Americans won't do.  We just want a better wage to do it.  You don't want to pay better wages so you want to hire non Americans.

Do you think American companies should be able to go down to the border with busses and pick up as many workers as they can fit on the bus and take them to this Republican owned farm to work?  Rather than pay Americans an American wage?  Cheap.


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## danielpalos (Dec 19, 2018)

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end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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    No,they come here to work for the most part.
Here's an interesting little tidbit. When I was 15 I made 25 bucks a yard to mow edge and weedeat...that was 38 years ago.
  Guess what? I can get the same thing today for the same price.
You dont even attempt to go to my local corner store at lunch time because you cant get in the parking lot with all the trucks pulling trailers with yard equipment.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Granted, what you're saying is a theory.  But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess -  too much regulation.  AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work.  It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user.  It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.


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## danielpalos (Dec 19, 2018)

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increasing the minimum wage means more people will be looking for work.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Let me set the record straight for you:

There ARE jobs that Americans won't do.  I try to hire people to do work for $25 to $40 per hour and it requires very little experience.  One guy who did some work for me for half what the big box guys charge kept bragging about how much he "saved" me.  

The gutters he put up still leaked and he would not make good on his work.  I got two Mexicans to do the job for 25 percent less than the other guy did.  And they made They ended up making $150 each for a half a day's work.  I advertise almost weekly and I know many other people that call me wanting handymen or landscapers who don't charge the same as their surgeon.

I advertise CONSTANTLY.  NOBODY can tell me what Americans will and won't do when I'm advertising constantly.  Adding insult to injury, IF people would work for $25 to $40 per hour, they would be making more than I am at this point.  How can I justify paying people more than I make?


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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That only drives up the cost of goods and services.  You get rid of regulations; you get the government out of the drug business; you rehabilitate the work force you have and put them back into the job market; end the surveillance society and restore the individual's privacy so that they can get back in the job market.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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That applies - maybe to cutting grass.  Where I live, handymen think they should make $250,000 a year with a skill set that took them less than two years to acquire.  My sister in law has SIX YEARS worth of education and is a registered nurse making the same thing basic handymen make here.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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  Bullshit.
Wages in machine shops stagnated when we had a huge influx of illegals who eventually get amnesty.

    Back in the eighties pouring concrete was a job done by blacks. Now it's all mexicans. Same can be said about construction and truck driving.
  Mexicans have killed the blue collar jobs in this country.


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## danielpalos (Dec 19, 2018)

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cutting spending doesn't correlate with revenue for the right wing.  they merely allege to be for Capitalism.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary.  We just need to end our illegal employer problem.  Really go after illegal employers.  Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders.  In fact make that shit legal for all I care.  

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?  

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming.  So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics.  I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame.  Lets not do that.  The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem.  So don't shift the argument to drug cartels.  Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.


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## danielpalos (Dec 19, 2018)

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employment is at the will of either party.  

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808.  States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state. 

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id.  We should have no "illegal" problem.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs.  Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess.  That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem.  Too many regulations, never not enough.  

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals.  You seem to not believe illegals are a problem.  I can't argue with that.  If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals.   Very few people agree with you.  Do you know who does agree with you?  The corporatists.  

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country?  Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care.  They should care.  

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means?  Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue.  And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.  

But that's take in legally.  

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal.  Don't you?


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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Do the foreign nationals have a green card to work here?  

Do you mean a passport or federal ID?  Because I don't have to have a federal id to visit Greece.  Why should a Greek have a federal ID to visit here?  Or a Canadian.  I just have to have a passport to go to Canada.  And no Canadian company would hire me without proper work permits.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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You live in a fantasy world.  I live in the real world.  Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage.  BOTH of them are capable of working.  But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.  

They've never worked and they are never going to work.  When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people.  Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them.  They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Whoa there dude.  If a local cop can enforce federal law, then they can come to your house and enforce federal gun laws.  BAD IDEA.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.  

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did.  I agree.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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I've given both of them the opportunity to work as laborers, get their GED, and get a job.  They laugh at the idea.  In September, we launched a ministry to help those disenfranchised.

It is not a handout program; it's a way to get off drugs, get an education and go work, becoming self sufficient.  In 88 days of operation, the only people taking advantage of the program have been women.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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I wonder why that is?  When I went to EMU in the 1990's most of the people at graduation were black women.  Not black men but black women.

And I'm not picking on black men.  I know a lot of lazy spoiled entitled young white men.  They love video games.  They have no goals.  The don't care about girls.  They are 20 and 30 something year old children.  I don't know where my generation went wrong raising these kids.

I think there wasn't the economic opportunity for them as there was for us.  But then that doesn't explain why women are stepping up and taking the jobs and boys aren't.  It's strange.

But also keep in mind every generation says the next generation sucks.  They said it about us and we are ok.  I'm in my 40's.  We figured it out.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Did we?  The country is run by idiots and scoundrels that we have to hold our nose to vote for.  The politicians are a representative example of the constituency they serve.


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## danielpalos (Dec 19, 2018)

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It means we should have no illegal problem; only well identified, foreign nationals.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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If you want to put it into terms I will understand you should ask me how would I like a Michigan cop to arrest me for having pot when it's legal in Michigan.  Would I like him arresting me for a federal crime?

But I still think if a cop catches an illegal immigrant they should be able to turn them into Ice.  

But then that would make me a hypocrite probably.


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## hadit (Dec 19, 2018)

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I think it's a cultural shift. When we were young, our male role models almost universally stressed hard work and self sufficiency. It was scandalous for a young man to get a girl pregnant, then run out on her. Now, it seems almost expected.  "GI Joe" was what, under 20? Now, 20 is still childhood. 

Not to pick on Obama, but "pajama boy" was possibly the worst conceivable face they could have put on obamadontcare. They actually stressed the idea that you wouldn't have to worry about working so much, or even at all to provide health insurance.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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I guess you are what you say IF you would actually do it.  The principle would apply across the board (it's that 14th Amendment you know.)  If a local or state cop can arrest you for violating a federal law, then he can arrest you for violating gun laws.

Sheriff Richard Mack took that question all the way to the United States Supreme Court as he did not want to be forced into complying with the Brady Bill.  He won the case.  We're talking now about the equal protection of the laws.  Our Republic, thank God, has jurisdictional boundaries.  They cannot violate them just because you do not like undocumented foreigners.


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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You’ll get no argument from me on this. I wish all the poor people on welfare didn’t have those kids they couldn’t afford. They know welfare is something they’ll get if they have kids and I believe this plays into their accidents happening in the first place.

Here is an idea I bet you can agree on. And they may actually be doing this now. If your retirement age for social security is 67 and you use up $2000 worth of foodstamps, that money has to come out of your benefits before you can retire. Every citizen who’s going to get social security is being tracked. They know what you have coming. I think welfare when you are young should be collected eventually. So instead of 67 your retirement might be 70 if you took welfare for 3 years.

U like this?


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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What about a citizens arrest?


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## sealybobo (Dec 19, 2018)

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This is why you go after companies breaking the law.

And don’t you think states have the right to arrest and turn illegals over to ice? What if Arizona has a problem Michigan does not? I’m going to tell Arizona they can’t arrest undocumented people and deport the ones who aren’t from here? So trumps breaking the law?


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## LA RAM FAN (Dec 19, 2018)

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well EVERYBODY that knows anything about you knows  that is an understatement that you one of the biggest hypocrite trolls to penetrate this site the fact you call out warmonger Bush for his muRderous actions in the mideast and then ignore how Obozo lied to the american people that he would pull out of the war and reverse all of Bushs policys but then EXPANDED them yet you worship THAT motherfucker for doing so,

hypocrite is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year on you.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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NO.  My late mother got $580 in Social Security payments and the state allowed her $17 for food each month.  My wife's oldest son gets $650 a month for food every month not counting all the other extra freebies he gets.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Why aren't those obsessed with the issue making citizen arrests and trying out their theories?


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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I guess this is where we have to disagree.  An employer owns the job they create.  I'm not ratting out any employer for hiring the best qualified candidate for a job.

When I was very young, I was laid off my union job to make way for blacks.  The tv cameras of the day loved me - young, infuriated and outspoken.  My argument back then was that government should allow the employer to hire who they thought was best qualified.  No special treatment for anyone.

No employer works their ass off day and night - weekends and holidays in order to provide you a job.  They start a business to be independent, self - sufficient and to make a profit.  When you make it unprofitable, they go to another country.  That might explain why, over the last twenty or so years, gambling has moved to China and they now have more casinos than Nevada - or the whole U.S. for that matter.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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Sometimes I don't condemn the liberals like I do the conservatives.  However, I've been a registered Republican all my voting life and I expect something from them.

If the Republicans are going to act like socialists or communists, then I want rid of them and have at least one party that isn't promoting ideologies that the founders would have found intolerable.  So, along those lines, I will complain about the Republican sell - outs and try to reform the party OR I will advocate the disenfranchised take over the Libertarian Party, reform it and get rid of what is rapidly becoming a ONE PARTY SYSTEM:  Democrat Commie Left or Republican / Socialist Lite.


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## hadit (Dec 19, 2018)

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In general, I think the retirement age should be raised anyway, just because we live longer today. 

I don't have a problem with requiring things like welfare to be paid for from benefits. It would make those benefits something to be used sparingly and only when actually needed. I do like it.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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  You actually allow this shit!!?
And you married a woman who allows this shit?
   You're a spineless fuken weasel!!!


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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  Actually we are dying at a younger age.

Life Expectancy Declines Among Americans for Second Year - The Atlantic

People's chances of dying young have increased in 21 US states — here are the places where an early death is most likely

Americans are dying younger and working longer


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 19, 2018)

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He that answereth a matter before he heareth _it_, it _is_ folly and shame unto him.  Proverbs 18:13

Do "I" allow this shit?  My wife's eldest son came to live with us, promising to get a job, etc., etc.  He'd sleep until 2 am then go "looking for a job"  after 1 pm decked out with short pants, wrinkled shirt, Doc Marten boots and a Big Gulp (a super sized soda for those who might not know.)

That lasted for about five weeks when I told him his ass was getting up when I get up, he'd get dressed like he was going to get a job and he would leave when I did and not come back until after 5 pm.  He was gone the next day.  Being a lazy, worthless, POS under my roof don't cut it.  I worked 60 to 80 hour work weeks at his age.  If he lives in my house, he's going to work.  He did not - he's gone.  The younger one does meth and knows better than come here.

I'd say an apology might be in order.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 19, 2018)

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   Well thats heartening.
Sometimes ya have to deal out some tough love.
   What I see these days is sickening. The wife and I live in an upper class gated community,in fact it's one of the five top rated communities in the US.
   I know of three of our neighbors "kids" who are in their thirties who still live at home and are addicted to opiods.....scratch that,there only two now. The last was found floating face down in his parents pool while they were off to Germany.
    All of these families have one thing in common....they're yankee democrats who moved here and take advantage of our conservative economy and yet they voted for open border Beto. 

   All I can say is fuck these people!!!!  Stay home and stop bringing your cancer to the great state of Texas!!!!


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## GWV5903 (Dec 19, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


> 6.7 million job openings, and record low unemployment. If an illegal is taking your job, then you are a piss poor excuse for an American.



You're so disconnected from reality it's hard to believe you work for a living. To sit here an say it's only about jobs is so elementary that you sound like you're analyzing a kindergarten class. The Liberal Left that you so fondly associate with can't pay the bills today, yet you want to take on more debt then any of you can pay for. If you believe we need to 'fix these country's', I have a better idea, why don't we give you a $100K and a One Way Ticket to Paradise, get back to us in 10 years and give us an update on your success or failure...


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## hadit (Dec 20, 2018)

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Not compared to when SS was created.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

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I don’t care if we live longer. A person who’s 65 should be able to retire

How many 66 plus year olds do you work with?

People who are 50 can’t get hired because of their age.

And I don’t mind raising it on people who are 17 and younger but I object to my retirement age being raised from 65 to 67. “They” cost me two more years of work.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 20, 2018)

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The people we're talking about in the younger generation are not anomalies; they are the norm.  Until we get them to clean up their act, a wall would not and could not work.  We're only a generation away from losing the country.  Most of the reason we're losing is due to the inability of people to understand the problem.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

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So lets let in a bunch of Mexicans who want to be citizens and work hard.  Not illegal undocumented or guest workers.  Come on in but you got to sign up.

Who cares if our skin is browner.  Sounds like brown works harder than white.  

And we will be fine by the way.  We have all those universities filled with people who want to lead.  They are smart, work hard, etc.  

Don't forget slackers in my dad's generation could go get a sweet job at Ford or GM.  They raised losers but they paid their own way.  Today's slackers go work for Walmart and live with their parents.  

Even the good kids don't want to drive, aren't interested in dating women (too expensive), they're lazy physically.  Don't worry the human race will be fine and we aren't a generation away from losing anything.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
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  Apparently this is a recent phenomenon.
Which is kinda strange with all the advancements in medical tech.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Porter Rockwell said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
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You and I will NEVER agree on this point.  Hopefully we won't be enemies, but here is the unadulterated truth as I see it:

1)  America is a finite piece of real estate that can only hold so many people.

2)  People can raise their right hand and tell you how much they love America, but I'd bet dollars against doughnuts that the two Muslim women that were sworn into Congress this term will consistently vote against the Constitution

3)  Within six months of the ratification of the Constitution, the founders codified the qualifications of a United States Citizen.  The Naturalization Act of 1790 required:

"That any alien, being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof..."

I gave a little color to that important distinction so you will understand my other points

4)  America was founded by white people who were Christians and our culture is predicated on their world view and history.

"Our modern American law system is based on centuries of English principles regarding right and wrong. This English common law system combines with U.S. case decisions and statutes to form what we know as law."

American Law: History & Origins from English Common Law - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com

Put into simple English, our laws are based upon Anglo English law (laws developed by white people) and our foundational principles are predicated upon the Christian religion

5)  Most non-whites have been programmed, Pavlovian style, to see the whites as the enemy.  They blame slavery as a pretext despite the fact that whites did not start slavery, but were the race that ended it.

Many races, cultures, creeds, and religions have a vested interest in tearing down our history and erasing the white people from the pages of history

6)  The whites are plagued by a low birth rate and our values are under constant attack.  Add to that the wholesale citizenship for foreigners - ESPECIALLY those the build the wall advocates have suggested we shoot and kill; set up land mines at the border to kill; suggested were low lifes for taking advantage of opportunities willingly offered and you have a disaster waiting to happen

7)  The globalists realize that America is the last great bastion of Freedom and Liberty.  Destroy it via Democracy and there is less chance of resistance by the people as compared to an armed take-over.

If we're going to give America away, then you should have to explain to me what difference it makes whether or not those who vote us out of power have a piece of human registration paper on them when they do it.  If there is no threat by foreigners to preserving our Constitution, there is NO debate as to how we meet that threat - in other words, there is NO argument for a wall if what you say is true.

Today's jobs require more education - and in some respects those who worked for U.S. Steel, GM, Lucent, etc. had good paying jobs with less effort.  But, there are jobs out there that pay good wages if the American people want them.  I'm hiring for gigs all the time.


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> hadit said:
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means testing does that.  

unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed would be more market friendly.


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


> BlackFlag said:
> 
> 
> > 6.7 million job openings, and record low unemployment. If an illegal is taking your job, then you are a piss poor excuse for an American.
> ...


the right wing is worse; and, they allege tax cut economics works.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> hadit said:
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The increase in deaths for young and middle-aged people is being driven by drug and alcohol use, suicide, and kidney disease, among other related factors.


The opioid crisis, alcohol use, suicide, and factors like chronic kidney disease are increasing the likelihood that some Americans will die an early death.

Also murder.  We are murdering more often it seems.

Over that time in five states — Kentucky, Oklahoma, New Mexico, West Virginia, and Wyoming — the chances people aged 20 to 55 would die increased by 10% or more.

In the US in general, there's a pretty extreme disparity of health outcomes that can be observed based on where a person in born. People born in certain states are much more likely to die an early death and to live fewer healthy years when compared to people born in healthier states.

comparing kids born in Summit County, Colorado (2014 life expectancy of 86.83), to those born in Oglala Lakota County, South Dakota (2014 life expectancy approximately 66.7).

the biggest improvements seen in New York and California. 

So keep making fun of California.  They're living longer.

Seems like red states are doing the worse.  Good!  LOL


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


> BlackFlag said:
> 
> 
> > 6.7 million job openings, and record low unemployment. If an illegal is taking your job, then you are a piss poor excuse for an American.
> ...


Trumps taking on more debt.  Maybe he shouldn't have given that tax break to us.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


> sealybobo said:
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I don't completely disagree with you.

But as for those muslim women and voting against the constitution.  Just keep in mind your idea of what's considered voting against the constitution is different than mine.  In fact you and George W Bush don't even agree.  And Pelosi and Trump don't completely agree.  And none of these people agree with Ron Paul 100%.  

So you might be one of those strict constitutionalists who interprets the constitution differently than the rest of us do.  I know you think you are right but so do we.  Did y ou hear that Texas judge said Obamacare was unconstitutional?  Talk about judges legislating from the bench huh?  

Oh, and I'm an atheist so I don't buy into that argument that we were founded by white christians so this is our country.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Porter Rockwell said:
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It is not a question of belief.  It is an indisputable FACT.  America was founded on Christian principles, not as a theocracy, but upon Christian principles.  Be glad to debate that with you as well. 

Insofar as the Constitution, I'm guided by two lines of wisdom given by the founders themselves:

"If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit, which the use can at any time yield."  George Washington in his Farewell Address

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit of the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."  Thomas Jefferson

The way I figure it, when it comes to whose right or wrong discussions, people are not arguing against me, but rather the founders that debated and then wrote the documents we live by.


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## hadit (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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If we wanted SS to work as intended, we would set the age significantly higher because It wasn't intended to allow everyone 20+ years of leisure. I personally plan on working until I'm 70 or 75. I can do this as long as my mind stays sharp.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


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Good luck

5.5 million *people* age 65 and older and approximately 200,000 individuals under age 65 who have younger-onset *Alzheimer's*. One in 10*people* age 65 and older (10 percent) has *Alzheimer's*dementia. Almost two-thirds of Americans with*Alzheimer's* are women.

And I don't see a problem with 20 plus years of leisure.  Life is short.  Enjoy it.  

It's fun to work when you are 69 and the job is easy and you don't need the money.


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## Doc7505 (Dec 20, 2018)

longknife said:


> *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
> 
> 
> *If that’s the case, why don’t the Dims want to defend this country against foreign invaders? Criminals who disobey the very laws they’ve enacted?*
> ...


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

Doc7505 said:


> longknife said:
> 
> 
> > *Don’t all elected officials take an oath when they take office? And doesn’t this oath state that they will defend the constitution?*
> ...



Here is a deal Republicans should be interested in.  If Trump gets re elected, we build the wall.  Sound like a deal?


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## GWV5903 (Dec 20, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> GWV5903 said:
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Tax cuts work, unless you’re a taker and not a contributor. So this must mean you’re a taker...


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


> danielpalos said:
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What makes you a contributor?  Did you mean maker?  Are you a maker too or now just a contibutor?  Couldn't quite call yourself a maker huh?

The term “maker” comes from the concept of a “market maker.” A market maker is one who provides liquidity to a market (they “make liquidity”).


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## GWV5903 (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> GWV5903 said:
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As long as we operate in a Capitalist Society, Tax Breaks are needed...


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## hadit (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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That's what I'm aiming for. I know myself well enough that I know I wouldn't do well with nothing to do. My work is ideally suited for short term contact work, and I plan to work a contact for a few months, take a month or so off, then do another. If my mind goes, I wouldn't want to work anyway.


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## hadit (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Why? He was already elected once on building the wall, why do it again?


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


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work for what?  

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

why should the Poor work hard, if the Rich are going to get richer.


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## hadit (Dec 20, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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Because the poor will get richer as well. When I work, I generate more wealth for my employer than what I am paid. That's the way it works, and I'm happy to let him worry about running the business. 

Truly, envy is a poor excuse for not making yourself valuable.


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
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Unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed and a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage is more cost effective for labor.   The rich will still get richer.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


> sealybobo said:
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The Democrats don't quit just because you say no.  They keep coming back.  Matter of fact, in Georgia, Stacey Abrams (the Democrat nominee for governor) is STILL on tv running for that position.  She's planning on campaigning for four more years.

Just remember, the Democrats want the wall.  The Republicans don't.  The concept was thought up by the liberals first.  They want it - but, they want the credit for it IF it works (which it won't unless we're going to make it a formality and admit that America is a socialist nation.)


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

there is no express power to build a wall.

let's end our drug war to cut spending.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> there is no express power to build a wall.
> 
> let's end our drug war to cut spending.



There are lots of people having lots of fun doing cocaine at nightclubs. Really I don’t see the big deal if they aren’t driving. We have Uber now.

But I don’t like my coke dealer cutting my coke with dangerous household ingredients. Or heroine. I’d rather be able to get some pure cocaine. Or properly cut coke because from what I understand we couldn’t handle a snort of pure blow.

We will never stop coke from getting in. We love it too much.

I haven’t done any in over ten years. I’m glad I can’t find any. I could if I looked but I’m not looking. This girl told me she could get me coke and I could tell she’s getting some really deluded stuff if it’s coke at all. Probably some opioids cut up. Stupid kids. They get high on bath salts


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## hadit (Dec 20, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
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Why do you insist on locking the poor into $15/hr? Do you hate them that much? It'd be better for them to work their way up to much more than be stuck with you at the bottom. This may surprise you, but a lot of people would prefer to earn more through work than what they can get from the taxpayers.


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > there is no express power to build a wall.
> ...


Putting the coke back in Coke, should be legal for consenting adults.


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
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why would they get stuck at the bottom?


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
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Can I make a point? Fuck the minimum wage. Fuck the poor. There will always be poor people. The goal should be to lower the number in poverty not eliminate poverty. We all know some people deserve to be poor.

Anyways, the point is we should have a huge middle class so anyone who wants to get out of poverty can easily just by being willing to work.

Right now nurses, teachers, secretaries, hr professionals, accounting people, I can go on. But all these supposedly middle class people are barely getting by. 

I’m only killing it because I have no kids or debt and make above average.

I don’t know how most Americans make it.


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## hadit (Dec 20, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
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Because you don't think they should work to earn more. Don't you ever read your own spew?


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## danielpalos (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
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it is a minimum wage not a maximum wage.  the right wing has no valid argument; so they make up their own right wing fantasy.


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## anotherlife (Dec 20, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
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The only good thing about minimum wage is that it fuels inflation, so unpayable debts get squeezed down to zero, such as subprime mortgages and student loans.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
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We socially engineered a middle class the world had never seen before. 

CEOs made $3 million a year. They made something like 50x the average worker. Over the years CEOs haven’t raised wages to keep up with inflation. They’ve kept wages low then give all the VPs and CEOs and bods all the profits. Now the ceo makes 300x the average workers.

Wake up America


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## anotherlife (Dec 20, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
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Not straightforward, because any legislation that you may want to invent against this x300 CEO pay will mostly fall on the heads of workers only, and the CEOs will be unaffected.  You can see this failure in Europe these years.


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## sealybobo (Dec 20, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
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Something could be done. We used to do those things but the rich fought back while we slept.

I believe there was a big tax above a certain amount. A tax on corporate greed

Or we could all unionize or boycott any companies that pay their employees less than they should. We could just shame corporations into doing the right thing.

People think affirmative action is dead but it’s alive and well. Now it’s called a diversity pledge.


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## GWV5903 (Dec 20, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> work for what?



Is it really that difficult for you to understand? The Free Ride failed millions of times, but you will probably never understand this... 



danielpalos said:


> why should the Poor work hard, if the Rich are going to get richer.



_'Why should the poor work hard?' _This is your first problem and if you cannot comprehend this you're a lost cause... 

_'if the Rich are going to get richer?' _If you enjoy being a taker, then the path of mediocrity is what life will give you at best...


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## Doc7505 (Dec 20, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
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~~~~~~
Unfortunately although I am retired more than 18 years I still pay taxes each year to the Feds, State, and County....


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## Doc7505 (Dec 20, 2018)

hadit said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Doc7505 said:
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~~~~~~
Because Trump has done more for this nation in economics, national Security and individual employment than Obama id in eight years. BTW, Congress just gave Trump the 5.8 Billion he has been asking for......


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
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Unions and diversity are a good thing, but it is not a good idea to touch taxes, because taxes always turn around to hit your pocket instead of any CEO.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 21, 2018)

Doc7505 said:


> hadit said:
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When Trump signs the legislation outlawing your weapons, you will understand the real cost of that idiotic wall.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
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we are also discussing solving simple poverty on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States for simply being unemployed.  

how much growth do we want.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > work for what?
> ...


the rich can afford free rides.  the right wing insists, the Poor are not worth it.


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## hadit (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
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How much would that cost? Numbers please.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

the ui rate times the number of people applying for unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.

let's assume U6 numbers.


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## hadit (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> the ui rate times the number of people applying for unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.
> 
> let's assume U6 numbers.



Okay, so how many people are going to, as you intend to, take welfare when you could work? I said I want to see your numbers.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > the ui rate times the number of people applying for unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.
> ...


Why wouldn't the least marketable, seek work the least.  You miss the point about efficiency gains merely from self-selection.


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## hadit (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
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That's not a number. Admit it, you really have no idea how much your wish would cost, do you?


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
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how about U6 times the unemployment compensation wage?  approximately fourteen dollars an hour equivalent with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage.

why not junk bonds?  it would only need to be a tax if we need to raise money due to shortfalls.

we have to sink costs to, "get the ball rolling"; after that, labor with some income will pay more in taxes and create more in demand.


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## hadit (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
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Still no numbers. How much would it cost to implement your dream? Include the inevitable rush of those earning just a bit more quitting their jobs and be sure to include the inevitable increases. You know, the wailing that no one can be expected to live on just that, prices have gone up, etc. 

And stop calling it unemployment compensation wage. Unemployment compensation has a specific meaning that does not include people who can but will not work. Stop it.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
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junk bonds, not junk laws.  how much do we need to raise?  Here is a legitimate "vehicle" to help the rich get richer, and help the poor at the same time.

FDIC could cover it. 

A general tax could cover the bond issue if necessary.  It could be another relatively safe investment vehicle for any Firm.


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## GWV5903 (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> GWV5903 said:
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There are no free rides, you’re too far gone...


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


> danielpalos said:
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sure there is; it is called, equal protection of the law.  free-riding on privileges and immunities established by the Rich, is what the concept entails.


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## sealybobo (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
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How so?  How would taxing a CEO's pay over $20 million hit my pocketbook?

Lets say CEO pay is out of control, which it is.  What if we said anyone making over $20 million a year is taxed at 95% for every dollar over $20 million?

Then the CEO won't bother trying to get more than $20 million. 

This will also keep the prices down because if the CEO gives himself or his employees a raise, they pass those costs onto consumers.  So capping corporate greed would actually keep costs down and would not raise taxes. 

Or how about no tax breaks for any company who pays their CEO more than 250 x the average worker?  Then to give the CEO a raise when he already makes more than god, he has to also give the employees a raise too. 

Top CEOs Make 300 Times More than Typical Workers: Pay Growth Surpasses Stock Gains and Wage Growth of Top 0.1 Percent


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## GWV5903 (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> GWV5903 said:
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You’re delusional and you want a Socialist Society...


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


> danielpalos said:
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equality and equal protection of the law is, "delusional"?  we have a Statue of Liberty.


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## Doc7505 (Dec 21, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


> Doc7505 said:
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So now you're claiming that Trump will violate the Constitution like Democrats have been doing for years?


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> anotherlife said:
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The idea of solving poverty is as bankrupt as wanting to solve a 5th degree polynomial.  Mathematically proven impossible. 

Any attempt to solve it makes it exponentially worse and painful.  That is how much growth we get.  How much of it do we want?  I hope zero.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> danielpalos said:
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nothing but right wing propaganda.  poverty can be ameliorated; poor cannot be solved.  there is a whole and entire world of difference.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
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I think only the 250x idea is workable.  But I am not sure even in that.  

It is a historic fact that every single tax legislation that has ever existed on the rich, it turned around and within a few years it was mostly a tax on the middle class and not on the rich.  Most notably the alternative minimum tax.  A lot of times this happens by clever and partial manipulation of inflation but by many other means too.  So tax laws are not the way to go.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> anotherlife said:
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No because both mathematically and physically the elimination of poverty is slavery.  You may intend to feed your slaves well and keep them happy, but that is still worse than starving in poverty.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
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nothing but propaganda?  

employment is at the will of either party, not wage-slavery.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> anotherlife said:
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I think we need to ask the other posters here whose English is worse, mine or yours.  I must admit that I have to learn more English to write properly.  But I can't understand a word of your post here.  

Employment is at will of either party?  No party is interested in employment, they are interested in votes.  The democrats are at an advantage because the more people they put into helpless government bondage, the more votes they naturally extort.  

Wage slavery?  When you control every aspect of everybody's life through taxation, then that is slavery, wage or no wage.


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## GWV5903 (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> GWV5903 said:
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Equal protection of law is not going to solve someones desires or passion to succeed, yes you're delusional, naive and basically ill informed, but hey that appears to be nothing new for you Daniel...


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## sealybobo (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
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It worked before.  Back when CEO's made $3 million and that was a lot of money, the robber barons tried to get greedy.  Long story short, we taxed anyone making over $3 million 95% on every dollar above $3 million.  So CEO's stopped trying to be greedy.  Instead they invested that money back into the company.  Or gave raises.  Or stockholders got bonus' instead.

I like the idea of starting an online union.  Anyone can join.  And we shame companies and we boycott companies and we don't buy from companies who show themselves to be bad actors. 

Over the entire period from 1978 to 2014, CEO compensation increased about 997 percent, a rise almost double stock market growth and substantially greater than the painfully slow 10.9 percent growth in a typical worker’s compensation over the same period.

If you examine close you'll see this is because of Republican policies.  Break the unions, and to deregulate industry blablabla.  

Just don't blame Democrats for why the middle class is disappearing and the gap between the rich and poor is getting wider.  It's Republicans who defend CEO pay and who say nothing can be done so don't bother.


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## sealybobo (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
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I love it when people say "nothing can be done about it".  But I just showed you how from 1974-Now things started getting worse.  What happened in 1973 that changed the game?  Was it deregulations of something that should have been regulated?  Was it bills passed in Congress that changed the way things worked?  Was it tax breaks to the rich?

Something must have been done to make the gap  between the rich and poor grow.  So why can't something be done to shrink it?  

The next thing Republicans will argue is that there is nothing wrong with the growing gap between the rich and rest of us.  We all know that's a lie.


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## sealybobo (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


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Do you know when Republicans started telling us there is nothing we can do about out of control CEO pay?  It was right around 1978.  LOL

Over the entire period from 1978 to 2014, CEO compensation increased about 997 percent, a rise almost double stock market growth and substantially greater than the painfully slow 10.9 percent growth in a typical worker’s compensation over the same period.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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VERY interesting data, especially the 997 %.  But it is impossible to fight this with taxation laws.  Taxation laws may have worked in the 20th century, but when you have global connectivity and instant access to everything, then there is no longer the friction that such protection is based on.

Utopistic, but a precondition of having employees then a capped leverage on their wages could be an angle of attack like you suggested earlier.  This is shaky too though because then the next legislation will be to remove the precondition of having employees and plunging every entrepreneur into a tax nightmare.  As usual. 

Not reducing capital gains taxes is an incentive not to cash out of a company.  That is good for the company as well as for the employees.  

What the CEO income increase really means is the emergence of a new world, namely computer networks.  The middle class and it's protective mechanisms, such as unions and industry regulations are like stage coach horses arguing against the salesmen of a bus company.

The big mathematical question is whether we horses will be all up rated for race track and saved or disappear in sausage factories to feed the bus driver.

Some countries, where the middle class has already imploded, such as Great Britain, we can observe very unexpected national behavior.  We Americans do have an advantage though.  We are not all socialized socialists just yet, so we have a last resort called the Bible.  Not a part of economics as a subject, but so far no academic or public office has been interested to solve this problem.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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In 1973, I think the logic was that they needed to increase the gap between the rich and the poor in order to fight against the Soviet Union.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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If republicans programmed your brain by repeating that nothing can be done against CEO increases, then they succeeded, because the only thing that the usual limited democrat brain can come up with is more taxes which is very easy for any republican to turn around and burn any democrat to the ground with.


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## sealybobo (Dec 21, 2018)

anotherlife said:


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My british buddy said back in England when horse shit was all over the roads cars were advertised as a solution to their pollution problems.


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## sealybobo (Dec 21, 2018)

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Well it has made Capitalism look like just another ISM


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## Doc7505 (Dec 21, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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~~~~~~
*“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”*  *-- Benjamin Franklin*

My sentiments exactly. At 82 years of age I fought to bring my family out of poverty. I believe I succeeded. It's up to the individual not society to do so.


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## sealybobo (Dec 21, 2018)

Doc7505 said:


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Yea but you lived through the golden age of the American middle class.  Unions, new deals, labor laws, pensions, social security, interest on your savings accounts, affordable college.

You lived in the greatest era of America.  Back before we needed to MAGA.  America was already G.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

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it helps if you understand the concept and the law.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

GWV5903 said:


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the law is employment at will.


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## danielpalos (Dec 21, 2018)

Doc7505 said:


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we know more about economics in modern times.  correcting for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment is as simple as it gets.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 21, 2018)

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He already has.


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## Doc7505 (Dec 21, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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Sorry to burst your bubble, I abhor unions and the source of my wealth has been through my own resourcefulness. No pensions, just hard work, smart moves, investments and savings.  BTW I worked a full time job raised a family yet didn't finish College.  Hmm...; the "Golden Age" you write of is Bull Crap...  Where were you in the late 60's and 70's when businesses were closing.


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## Doc7505 (Dec 21, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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I doubt any more so than previous presidents, especially president #44.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 21, 2018)

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The past is the past.  Trump is the man right now and he sold us out.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

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Bullshit.  There is no such thing as understanding a law or concept, when the law itself is a con, as usual with financial legislations.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

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I think it doesn't matter what age we pick.  Supporting the poor is always a fail.  Even when a church does it half the time.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 21, 2018)

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Generally I cannot make heads nor tails of what danielpalos is really arguing.  Guess I'm not that smart, but here is where we are in reality:

The original idea was that Congress makes the laws, the Executive branch (i.e. the president and his cabinet / regulatory agencies) execute the laws, and the United States Supreme Court interprets the laws.  

In reality, all branches of the government try to over-step their boundaries.  IN MY OPINION, the most prevalent violators of constitutional law is the United States Supreme Court.  In my mind, once an issue is challenged in the courts and ends up in the United States Supreme Court, that is where the buck stops...HOWEVER, once the United States Supreme Court interprets the law and sets a precedent, IN MY MIND (largely based upon what the founders stated) that is the law.  The United States Supreme Court has NO legitimate authority to reverse their own rulings.  

As a result of the abuses, the Constitution means 180 degrees opposite of what the founders intended as the United States Supreme Court keeps changing the law and legislating from the bench.  It's time the citizenry did their civic duty and begin exhausting their nonviolent political and legal avenues of redress.


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## anotherlife (Dec 21, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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Interesting how Anglo Saxon legal systems build upon precedence.  Precedence and testimonial oath are not legal under Roman law.  Too bad, Roman law fell victim to socialist hegemony in the 20th century. 

So, what avenues do US citizens have?  They don't have more money than the US government to counter argue an interpretation.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 21, 2018)

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As a matter of policy, I do not discuss my strategies in public forums and when anyone I talk to does try to make it public fodder, I cut off communications with them.

People like to boil everything down to a bumper sticker solution.  I don't have that for you.  What I discuss are strategies that DO work.  If you want the Cliff Notes that are public, check out this link:

How do we effect change?


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## anotherlife (Dec 22, 2018)

Porter Rockwell said:


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Okay so good luck with that.  But writing more tax laws must be out.


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## Porter Rockwell (Dec 22, 2018)

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Here is my own personal default:

I do not support *ANY *legislation that would increase the size, power and / or scope of government.  So accusing me of being for any kind of tax increase would be disingenuous if you further accuse me of that.


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## anotherlife (Dec 22, 2018)

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That is good news.


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## danielpalos (Dec 22, 2018)

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in right wing fantasy?  the law is, employment at will.


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## anotherlife (Dec 22, 2018)

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Then let me give you an analytical lecture about the law.  The law of employment at will means fire at will.  This is how big its ass is.  Now my question is, how much is the law worth to you?


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## danielpalos (Dec 22, 2018)

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recourse to an income on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States under our form of Capitalism where capital is a requirement for market participation.


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## anotherlife (Dec 22, 2018)

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So, are you saying that at will employment laws lead to wage slavery?


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## danielpalos (Dec 22, 2018)

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a lack of equal protection of the law leads to "wage slavery" in any allegedly, "at-will" employment State.


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## anotherlife (Dec 22, 2018)

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There is no such thing as equal protection by a law.  The word equal and the word law don't fit in the same sentence, except in liberal socialist democrat coocoo land.


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## danielpalos (Dec 22, 2018)

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lol.  nice story, story teller.  I am a federalist and subscribe to the federal doctrine.


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## hadit (Dec 22, 2018)

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Translation:  You want to be paid even though you refuse to work.


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## danielpalos (Dec 22, 2018)

hadit said:


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it pays even less than the minimum wage; isn't that, enough capital punishment.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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Again, words mean things, and they don't mean what you want them to mean. Your fallacies will not stop until you realize that simple fact.


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## danielpalos (Dec 23, 2018)

hadit said:


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simply claiming that is a fallacy.  you need a valid rebuttal or to ask questions.  Men, know that.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2018)

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Since you're acting obtuse, capital punishment is death. You're saying that your prescription equals the death penalty. Do you understand now why I say you use words that don't mean what you really want them to mean?  And stop disparaging women. They're smarter than you.


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## danielpalos (Dec 23, 2018)

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why does the right wing prefer to use capitalism to punish rather than encourage?

there is no economic reason for it.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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You're the one claiming what you want to pay those who will not work is the death penalty. Why do you want to kill the poor?


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## danielpalos (Dec 23, 2018)

hadit said:


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only the right wing is for, work or die.  There is no economic reason for it in modern times.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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Why do you want to kill the poor?


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## danielpalos (Dec 23, 2018)

hadit said:


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only the right wing believes in capital punishment.  the left believes capitalism should be used to encourage.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2018)

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Then why do you say your economic prescription is capital punishment?


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## danielpalos (Dec 23, 2018)

hadit said:


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it isn't.  your right wing economic prescription is economic punishment.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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This is why I say you don't know what words mean.


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## danielpalos (Dec 23, 2018)

hadit said:


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nothing but excuses, right wingers?

why use capitalism to punish rather than encourage.


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