# Just another day in America. Guns keeping people safe... 8 dead... the dead can't be killed, therefore they're safe.



## frigidweirdo (Jan 5, 2023)

Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
					

Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.



					www.bbc.com
				




"*A family of eight - including five children - have been found shot dead inside a rural home in Enoch City, in the US state of Utah."

Well, I guess after Sandy Hook, we know nothing will be done about this. *


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


If you filth would stop letting violent criminals go free...


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## Godboy (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


It sounds like this family would be safe right now if they had a gun.


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## fncceo (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...



If guns make you uncomfortable, I suggest you don't own one.


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## Penelope (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


They must be white.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> If you filth would stop letting violent criminals go free...


Penelope disagrees with the above. A criminal loving leftist monster.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

Penelope said:


> They must be white.


Poor racist criminal lover.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> If you filth would stop letting violent criminals go free...



No evidence that this was a criminal who was released. At first blush, this sounds like a murder/suicide.  And Utah, you know that some kind of Mormon Craziness was involved. 



Godboy said:


> It sounds like this family would be safe right now if they had a gun.


Probably not, since a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy. 

Wouldn't be surprised if we find out this was domestic violence, given the remoteness of the home and that they were all Mormon crazies.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> No evidence that this was a criminal who was released. At first blush, this sounds like a murder/suicide.  And Utah, you know that some kind of Mormon Craziness was involved.
> 
> 
> Probably not, since a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.
> ...


You don't know anything about it.


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## Godboy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> No evidence that this was a criminal who was released. At first blush, this sounds like a murder/suicide.  And Utah, you know that some kind of Mormon Craziness was involved.
> 
> 
> Probably not, since a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.
> ...


Thats only because a 1/1000th of 1% of people never experience a murderous home invasion. For this family, they would have been FAR safer with a gun than without one.


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## basquebromance (Jan 5, 2023)

Godboy said:


> Thats only because a 1/1000th of 1% of people never experience a murderous home invasion. For this family, they would have been FAR safer with a gun than without one.


guns are a good thing! the Nazis didn't invade Switzerland because they had guns


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Godboy said:


> Thats only because a 1/1000th of 1% of people never experience a murderous home invasion. For this family, they would have been FAR safer with a gun than without one.


Has anyone determined it was a home invasion and not a family annihilator? 

Because the way the authorities are talking, it sounds like Domestic violence. 









						8 people, including 5 children, found dead in Utah home
					

Eight people were found dead inside a home in Enoch, Utah on Wednesday, according to authorities.




					ktxs.com
				




_Police said there was no threat to the public and they do not believe there were any suspects at large.

The incident remained under investigation_.



miketx said:


> You don't know anything about it.


Judging by the statement given by police, it is pretty much what I suspected... a family annihilator. 

Here's the reality- Most homicides are committed family, lovers, friends or neighbors of the deceased.  This is why the NRA dream of a gun in every house is kind of crazy, and why the US has 10-20K homicides a year compared to less than a few hundred in other industrialized countries.


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## Godboy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Has anyone determined it was a home invasion and not a family annihilator?
> 
> Because the way the authorities are talking, it sounds like Domestic violence.
> 
> ...


You might be right then. Maybe the dad was the shooter. If so, the mom sure could have used a gun in that situation.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Has anyone determined it was a home invasion and not a family annihilator?
> 
> Because the way the authorities are talking, it sounds like Domestic violence.
> 
> ...


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Godboy said:


> You might be right then. Maybe the dad was the shooter. If so, the mom sure could have used a gun in that situation.


Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.


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## SmokeALib (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


Would you have preferred he used a knife?


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## 1srelluc (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


I've yet to see a gun grow little hands and feet and go on a murderous rampage on it's own.....Same with knives, machetes, vehicles, or any other inanimate object folks use to off each other with.


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## pknopp (Jan 5, 2023)

Godboy said:


> Thats only because a 1/1000th of 1% of people never experience a murderous home invasion. For this family, they would have been FAR safer with a gun than without one.



 I fully support the people's right to own a gun BUT we have no idea the facts here. As noted above, it's possible they had a gun and a family member used it against the rest of the family members. 

 Is that a reason to not allow others to own a gun? No, but as of right now, there are no valid points to be made as far as this case is concerned.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> View attachment 744897


Buddy, Abel and Goliath didn't exist.  Those are myths. 

But according to the bible story, there's no evidence that Cain Killed Abel with a rock.  Could have been a stick, or a knife.   

_Genesis 4:8 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him._

Nothing in there about a rock.  

Actually, Goliath seems like he was the good guy in that situation.  "Hey, I'll take on your champion, instead of us having a battle where hundreds of people will be killed unnecessarily!"


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Buddy, Abel and Goliath didn't exist.  Those are myths.
> 
> But according to the bible story, there's no evidence that Cain Killed Abel with a rock.  Could have been a stick, or a knife.
> 
> ...


Butt stain thinks he's an expert on everything, and like the deranged loon he is, a silly meme triggers his stupid.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> Butt stain thinks he's an expert on everything, and like the deranged loon he is, a silly meme triggers his stupid.



If the meme was silly, why did you post it?  
What makes the meme silly is that it wasn't accurate. We have no idea what Cain killed Abel with, and Goliath doesn't sound like that bad of a guy. (I also don't think he was a giant, because Giants aren't real.)


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> If the meme was silly, why did you post it?
> What makes the meme silly is that it wasn't accurate. We have no idea what Cain killed Abel with, and Goliath doesn't sound like that bad of a guy. (I also don't think he was a giant, because Giants aren't real.)


Butt stain, lots of memes aren't accurate. Now, we know you're a proven lying troll so no need for you to keep trying.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Probably not, since a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.


Lying troll.


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## 1srelluc (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> I fully support the people's right to own a gun BUT we have no idea the facts here. As noted above, it's possible they had a gun and a family member used it against the rest of the family members.
> 
> Is that a reason to not allow others to own a gun? No, but as of right now, there are no valid points to be made as far as this case is concerned.


Meh, the only point being pushed by the OP and his fellow travelers is the crime was committed with a gun. It's a agenda driven response.

In truth they care about as much for the people involved as I do the ones killed in Chicago every day or the ones in UT for that matter. It's a shame but they are not known to me.


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## pknopp (Jan 5, 2023)

1srelluc said:


> Meh, the only point being pushed by the OP and his fellow travelers is the crime was committed with a gun. It's a agenda driven response.


 
 It does appear as if the crime was committed with a gun.


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## jknowgood (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.


Lol, he could've stabbed them. Evil has no boundaries.


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## 1srelluc (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> It does appear as if the crime was committed with a gun.


I guess for them it is a good grasp of the obvious.....It all went South after that with the agenda driven stuff though.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> It does appear as if the crime was committed with a gun.


Do they have any leads on where the gun is hiding?


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## pknopp (Jan 5, 2023)

1srelluc said:


> I guess for them it is a good grasp of the obvious.....It all went South after that with the agenda driven stuff though.



 Assuming the family wasn't armed is an assumption also.


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## 1srelluc (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> Assuming the family wasn't armed is an assumption also.


Yep, all that is know at this point is that they were shot dead.


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## Bob Blaylock (Jan 5, 2023)

I'm reminded of a faintly-remembered political advertisement, some years back.  It was in support of some gun-control-related cause.

  The ad showed a woman hiding in her home, as a man in an obviously violent state of mind was breaking down her door.  We were meant to think how bad it would be if that man had a gun.  We were not meant to think about the woman having a gun, and being able to use it to defend herself, but that is exactly what I was thinking as I watched it.


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## elektra (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if we find out this was domestic violence, given the remoteness of the home and that they were all Mormon crazies.


i would not be surprised if it is domestic violence. That said, this town is not in a remote area. It is on I-15, which is thee interstate coming from southern california, through las vegas, and onward to denver or salt lake city. Even I can say I drove through this town more than once.


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## martybegan (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> Lying troll.



He's been using the same debunked study from one county for about a decade now.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

1srelluc said:


> I've yet to see a gun grow little hands and feet and go on a murderous rampage on it's own.....Same with knives, machetes, vehicles, or any other inanimate object folks use to off each other with.


Oh come on! You know they do! How else do they kill so many??!!??//(+-_$';??


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## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.




Tell that to the people stabbed to death every year.

DURRRRRR


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## Penelope (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> Poor racist criminal lover.


They must be white; I've read two articles about it and never showed their faces.


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## Mr Natural (Jan 5, 2023)

Murders in rural white America?

Impossible!


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## Penelope (Jan 5, 2023)

westwall said:


> Tell that to the people stabbed to death every year.
> 
> DURRRRRR


Very few people are stabbed every year, more of them commit suicide.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

Penelope said:


> They must be white; I've read two articles about it and never showed their faces.


Racist troll says what?


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## 22lcidw (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.


The issue is not what happened there. It is you Progs. Defending oneself from Progs destructive inclinations is another right that is eing attacked. Many examples in many ways. Australia and New Zealand citizens are neutered with gun laws. We have a good agreement with them and Japan now however China's influence is expanding. Extreme Feminist leaders will end up making those two white English-speaking areas Chinese colonies as a better solution than Earth ending up in nuclear conflagration.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.


Lying, criminal loving troll


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## jknowgood (Jan 5, 2023)

Penelope said:


> Very few people are stabbed every year, more of them commit suicide.


Lol, one of you loons tried to kill his family by driving his car off a cliff. Evil has no boundaries, and represents liberals well.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> I fully support the people's right to own a gun BUT we have no idea the facts here. As noted above, it's possible they had a gun and a family member used it against the rest of the family members.
> 
> Is that a reason to not allow others to own a gun? No, but as of right now, there are no valid points to be made as far as this case is concerned.


Then why are running your holster about it then?


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

Godboy said:


> It sounds like this family would be safe right now if they had a gun.


Unfortunately many people with guns don't keep one handy just in case.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Bob Blaylock said:


> I'm reminded of a faintly-remembered political advertisement, some years back.  It was in support of some gun-control-related cause.
> 
> The ad showed a women hiding in her home, as a man in an obviously violent state of mind was breaking down her door.  We were meant to think how bad it would be if that man had a gun.  We were not meant to think about the woman having a gun, and being able to use it to defend herself, but that is exactly what I was thinking as I watched it.



Except a gun in the home increases the probability that a domestic incident will turn into a fatality.  How many women have been shot with their own guns in suicides, domestic disputes or dumb accidents. 



westwall said:


> Tell that to the people stabbed to death every year.
> 
> DURRRRRR



We have far fewer stabbing murders than gun murders... Durr... 



22lcidw said:


> The issue is not what happened there. It is you Progs. Defending oneself from Progs destructive inclinations is another right that is eing attacked. Many examples in many ways. Australia and New Zealand citizens are neutered with gun laws. We have a good agreement with them and Japan now however China's influence is expanding. Extreme Feminist leaders will end up making those two white English-speaking areas Chinese colonies as a better solution than Earth ending up in nuclear conflagration.


Does your doctor know you are off your medications?


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Except a gun in the home increases the probability that a domestic incident will turn into a fatality. How many women have been shot with their own guns in suicides, domestic disputes or dumb accidents.


Keep spewing the same lie over and over. You want the guns? Come get them traitor.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> Keep spewing the same lie over and over. You want the guns? Come get them traitor.



Sure, I'm happy to let the ATF go Waco on you Whackos


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## pknopp (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> Then why are running your holster about it then?



 No clue what you are rambling about but that's about par for the course.


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## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Sure, I'm happy to let the ATF go Waco on you Whackos
> 
> View attachment 744918




The WACO people just wanted to be left alone.

They were fundamentally peaceful.   You start trying to take the guns and there are 50 million Americans who WON'T  be peaceful one iota.

Forget that at your peril, traitor.


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## DBA (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.



If someone is deranged enough to start shooting family members, not sure why you don't think they aren't deranged enough to trap them in a room and set the house on fire or hit them with a baseball bat or kill them with a large kitchen knife(Idaho ring any bells?) or drive the family car over a cliff(in the news recently). The list goes on and on.  The gun is not the problem, the deranged person is the problem.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> No clue what you are rambling about but that's about par for the course.


Funny that, you seem to know everything about everything else. But then that's the lying leftist way, to pretend. Pretend, spew lies, blather rinse and repeat.


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## pknopp (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> Funny that, you seem to know everything about everything else.


 
No, I know about the things I comment on.




miketx said:


> But then that's the lying leftist way, to pretend. Pretend, spew lies, blather rinse and repeat.



 I am not fluent in mindless rant.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Sure, I'm happy to let the ATF go Waco on you Whackos
> 
> View attachment 744918


Of course you do. It's a trait all leftist murdering cowards have.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> No, I know about the things I comment on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're fluent in what the tv tells you. Nothing more.


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## 22lcidw (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Except a gun in the home increases the probability that a domestic incident will turn into a fatality.  How many women have been shot with their own guns in suicides, domestic disputes or dumb accidents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My threads are on the end game. You see not end to murders in Prog areas. Even with more and more money spent. It is not guns. Guns are the excuse and will look good in the initial stages when eliminated. Then not so much.


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## pknopp (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> You're fluent in what the tv tells you. Nothing more.



 At least what they say is understandable, even when on disagree's.


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## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> At least what they say is understandable, even when on disagree's.


That's it, keep pushing the same lie. Next comes the worn out but classic "what did I lie about?"


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## Mac-7 (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


It appears that your complaint has to fo with the way they died

I guess you think someone noticed s gun in the closet and decided to kill people with it on a whim

The problem is that weak people are being driven crazy by the liberal  culture they grew up in 

If the killer had no gin there are other ways


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

westwall said:


> The WACO people just wanted to be left alone.
> 
> They were fundamentally peaceful. You start trying to take the guns and there are 50 million Americans who WON'T be peaceful one iota.
> 
> Forget that at your peril, traitor.


Uh, yeah, they were so peaceful they shot 4 ATF agents, molested children and sold illegally modified guns 



DBA said:


> If someone is deranged enough to start shooting family members, not sure why you don't think they aren't deranged enough to trap them in a room and set the house on fire or hit them with a baseball bat or kill them with a large kitchen knife(Idaho ring any bells?) or drive the family car over a cliff(in the news recently). The list goes on and on. The gun is not the problem, the deranged person is the problem.


No, Cleetus, a deranged person with a gun is going to be able to kill people a lot easier than one with a baseball bat.  

Oh, by the way, was confirmed that this was a murder suicide by a family annihilator 

CALLED IT!


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

22lcidw said:


> My threads are on the end game. You see not end to murders in Prog areas. Even with more and more money spent. It is not guns. Guns are the excuse and will look good in the initial stages when eliminated. Then not so much.


Okay, you know you sound like a crazy person most of the time, right?


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## Lastamender (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


How many killed in Chicago and the other shitholes run by gun control Democrats? Any idea?


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## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Uh, yeah, they were so peaceful they shot 4 ATF agents, molested children and sold illegally modified guns
> 
> 
> No, Cleetus, a deranged person with a gun is going to be able to kill people a lot easier than one with a baseball bat.
> ...




They were defending themselves from an illegal attack, billy Joe Bob.  

And if that is the case then the mom should have had a gun.  She would have been able to kill the prick.


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## Flash (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


Guns didn't kill anybody.

Some crazy assholes did.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

westwall said:


> They were defending themselves from an illegal attack, billy Joe Bob.


Really?
The ATF had a warrant.  They knew they were ATF agents. 

If you really want to argue the illegality of a warrant, then you do that in court, not by shooting it out with ATF agents, and then committing mass suicide when you know your cult leader is going to prison. 



westwall said:


> And if that is the case then the mom should have had a gun. She would have been able to kill the prick.


Uh, yeah, given that this is Utah, we are probably talking Mormon Cultist... so she'd have sat their and taken it.


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## AZrailwhale (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.


More family members are killed with knives or fists than guns.


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## Flash (Jan 5, 2023)

Lastamender said:


> How many killed in Chicago and the other shitholes run by gun control Democrats? Any idea?


Every day there is a massacre of shootings in Democrat controlled Chicago.  Even more on weekends and even more than that on holidays.  The same in many other Democrat controlled big city shitholes.  Many with strict gun control laws.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

AZrailwhale said:


> More family members are killed with knives or fists than guns.



Um, not really.  Knives make up only 10% of murders.  Fists only make up 4%.  Murder by firearm make up 74% of homicides.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> No evidence that this was a criminal who was released. At first blush, this sounds like a murder/suicide.  And Utah, you know that some kind of Mormon Craziness was involved.


 No evidence Mormonism was involved either, right?


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> No evidence Mormonism was involved either, right?



Utah. 
Five Kids
Do the math.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Utah.
> Five Kids
> Do the math.



Leftist judges frequently bestow leniency on violent criminals
Do the math

See how that works?


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## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...




Yeah....doesn't happen anywhere else...you doofus...

India...

The *Burari deaths* were a ritual mass suicide[1] of eleven family members of the Chundawat family[2]






						Burari deaths - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





Canada....









						He seemed like the perfect son. Then he confessed to slaughtering his family with a crowbar
					

The untold story of a quadruple murder in Markham




					torontolife.com
				




14 killed here.....









						Suicide after massacre of 14 at family reunion
					

A 35-year-old tax professional killed 14 members of his own family, including his parents and a three-month-old daughter, in one of the grisliest massacres in the country in recent years before committing suicide early today, police said.




					www.telegraphindia.com


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## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> No evidence that this was a criminal who was released. At first blush, this sounds like a murder/suicide.  And Utah, you know that some kind of Mormon Craziness was involved.
> 
> 
> Probably not, since a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.
> ...




Lying again.......?  Of course....

Kellerman who did the study that came up with the 43 times more likely myth, was forced to retract that study and to do the research over when other academics pointed out how flawed his methods were....he then changed the 43 times number to 2.7, but he was still using flawed data to get even that number.....

Below is the study where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7 and below that is the explanation as to why that number isn't even accurate.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-conten...ack-of-Public-Health-Research-on-Firearms.pdf

3. The Incredibly Flawed Public Health Research Guns in the Home At a town hall at George Mason University in January 2016, President Obama said, “If you look at the statistics, there's no doubt that there are times where somebody who has a weapon has been able to protect themselves and scare off an intruder or an assailant, but what is more often the case is that they may not have been able to protect themselves, but they end up being the victim of the weapon that they purchased themselves.”25 The primary proponents of this claim are Arthur Kellermann and his many coauthors. A gun, they have argued, is less likely to be used in killing a criminal than it is to be used in killing someone the gun owner knows. In one of the most well-known public health studies on firearms, Kellermann’s “case sample” consists of 444 homicides that occurred in homes. His control group had 388 individuals who lived near the deceased victims and were of the same sex, race, and age range. After learning about the homicide victims and control subjects—whether they owned a gun, had a drug or alcohol problem, etc.—these authors attempted to see if the probability of a homicide correlated with gun ownership. Amazingly these studies assume that if someone died from a gun shot, and a gun was owned in the home, that it was the gun in the home that killed that person. The paper is clearly misleading, as it fails to report that in only 8 of these 444 homicide cases was the gun that had been kept in the home the murder weapon.Moreover, the number of criminals stopped with a gun is much higher than the number killed in defensive gun uses. In fact, the attacker is killed in fewer than 1 out of every 1,000 defensive gun uses. Fix either of these data errors and the results are reversed. To demonstrate, suppose that we use the same statistical method—with a matching control group—to do a study on the efficacy of hospital care. Assume that we collect data just as these authors did, compiling a list of all the people who died in a particular county over the period of a year. Then we ask their relatives whether they had been admitted to the hospital during the previous year. We also put together a control sample consisting of neighbors who are part of the same sex, race, and age group. Then we ask these men and women whether they have been in a hospital during the past year. My bet is that those who spent time in hospitals are much more likely to have died.


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

*Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.*


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

*Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.


-----
*

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t.

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8

In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns.

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count.

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example, 

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, 

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and 

17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. 
Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6
======

Read more: CDC’s Antigun Agenda On Display: So-Called Experts Abuse Our Trust
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

In 1993,Dr. Kellermann, who was funded in 1991 by a CDC grant, had to soften the ’43 times’ number to ‘2.7 times.’ He concluded, “Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.” Kellerman thought the 2.7 number would not sound quite so impossible.
These papers, and many others from the medical community, were criticized by researchers who statistically showed that Kellermann’s conclusions were wildly wrong. Kellermann used a technique that depended on matching subjects and controls, except that the subject and control groups did not match. The subject group lived a very high-risk, alcohol and drug-filled lifestyle, while the controls did not.
Kellermann had singled out people who exist at the edges of society. Kellermann did not study normal gun owners, just criminals who had guns, but he exaggerated his findings.


> Because of this confusion, Kellerman helped change American gun politics by injecting unwarranted fear into the gun debate. Too many journalists just read the conclusion of a “scientific” paper, and skip over the rest as too complex for them.


Despite these serious methodological problems, Kellermann’s results are still widely accepted in the public health field.​Public-health advocates appear willing to run with any published study, regardless of how weak its methods, just so long as the findings are congenial to their assumption that guns are dangerous.
Then, in 1996, after Congress requested Kellermann’s original data, which he failed to release, Congress cut funding to the CDC for advocacy research. No funding was cut for medical research, just advocacy research.

CDC’s Antigun Agenda On Display: So-Called Experts Abuse Our Trust


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

pknopp said:


> It does appear as if the crime was committed with a gun.




You don't need a gun to murder your family.  A Quick trip to walmart will get you what you need.....for a lot less too...18.00 for a bottle of anti-freeze....

*Despite confessing to police that she poisoned her husband, son and daughter with antifreeze, Diane Staudte says she is innocent.*











						Mother convicted of poisoning her family maintains her innocence
					

Diane Staudte was convicted of two counts of first-degree murder in 2016.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2023)

> 60% of the murders in the US are committed by black males, a demographic which makes up about 6.5% of the population.
Thus... it's not the guns.


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Uh, yeah, they were so peaceful they shot 4 ATF agents, molested children and sold illegally modified guns


Tv told you that?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Except a gun in the home increases the probability that a domestic incident will turn into a fatality.  How many women have been shot with their own guns in suicides, domestic disputes or dumb accidents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No......having a criminal living in the home increases that chance, you lying asshat.

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t. 

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8

In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns.

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count.

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example, *

*53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, 

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and 

17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. 
Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Uh, yeah, they were so peaceful they shot 4 ATF agents, molested children and sold illegally modified guns
> 
> 
> No, Cleetus, a deranged person with a gun is going to be able to kill people a lot easier than one with a baseball bat.
> ...




You don't need a gun to murder your family.....many cheaper ways to do that.......


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

DBA said:


> If someone is deranged enough to start shooting family members, not sure why you don't think they aren't deranged enough to trap them in a room and set the house on fire or hit them with a baseball bat or kill them with a large kitchen knife(Idaho ring any bells?) or drive the family car over a cliff(in the news recently). The list goes on and on.  The gun is not the problem, the deranged person is the problem.




Doesn't take a gun......just a real desire to kill your family....

*The massacre began with a cup of tea.*
*
On April 14, 2008, Shabnam laced her family’s evening drinks with a sedative Saleem bought with the help of a fruit seller, the court found. Then, as the family slept, Shabnam called Saleem – who arrived with an ax.
*
*“Shabnam held up the heads of each member one by one and I slashed their throats and killed them,” Saleem confessed the day after the murders to Bilal Ahmad, a tea seller with connections to the district police chief.*









						She killed 7 members of her own family while pregnant. Now her son could be orphaned by execution | CNN
					

Shabnam and her lover, Saleem, were found guilty of murdering seven members of her family and sentenced to hang. If she is executed, Shabnam will be first woman given the death penalty in India since 1955. She will leave behind a son, Bittu, who is appealing to the President Ram Nath Kovind to...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jan 5, 2023)

elektra said:


> i would not be surprised if it is domestic violence. That said, this town is not in a remote area. It is on I-15, which is thee interstate coming from southern california, through las vegas, and onward to denver or salt lake city. Even I can say I drove through this town more than once.











						Father identified as suspect in murder-suicide of Utah family of 8
					

Michael Haight, 42, was described as a suspect in the deaths of his family that included his wife, their five children and his mother-in-law, according to officials in Enoch City.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Utah.
> Five Kids
> Do the math.


Sure they weren't Productive Protestants?

Or Catholic Cultists?


----------



## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Really?
> The ATF had a warrant.  They knew they were ATF agents.
> 
> If you really want to argue the illegality of a warrant, then you do that in court, not by shooting it out with ATF agents, and then committing mass suicide when you know your cult leader is going to prison.
> ...




Have you seen the warrant?  I have.  Not one item that was listed was illegal in any state of the country.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> If you filth would stop letting violent criminals go free...


....but...but...but....but you have the 2nd Amendment, that's what keep people safe and America has the least gun incidents on the planet


----------



## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

Captain Caveman said:


> ....but...but...but....but you have the 2nd Amendment, that's what keep people safe and America has the least gun incidents on the planet




When they have them, they do.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Okay, you know you sound like a crazy person most of the time, right?



  Have you any faint vestige of a clue how you sound to sane people?


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

Captain Caveman said:


> ....but...but...but....but you have the 2nd Amendment, that's what keep people safe and America has the least gun incidents on the planet


You're succeeding at displaying your stupidity and how much you hate freedom.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jan 5, 2023)

Captain Caveman said:


> ....but...but...but....but you have the 2nd Amendment, that's what keep people safe and America has the least gun incidents on the planet



  Irrelevant British subject is irrelevant.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jan 5, 2023)

miketx said:


> If you filth would stop letting violent criminals go free...


This is a lie.


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.


No, it's been proven over and over traitor.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


What conservatives will do is lie about guns being 'banned' and 'confiscated.'


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> What conservatives will do is lie about guns being 'banned' and 'confiscated.'


All the lying is on you traitor.


----------



## Ralph Norton (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.


Tell that to the 4 students in Idaho.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

You can always tell when a gun massacre has happened when 2AGuy shows up with this NRA Spooge.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Leftist judges frequently bestow leniency on violent criminals
> Do the math
> 
> See how that works?


Um, that didn't have anything to do with my point, but never mind.  



Bob Blaylock said:


> Have you any faint vestige of a clue how you sound to sane people?


Says the guy who thinks he's wearing Magic Underwear?
Oh, hey I guess 8 people found out Magic Underwear doesn't actually protect you!.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

Captain Caveman said:


> ....but...but...but....but you have the 2nd Amendment, that's what keep people safe and America has the least gun incidents on the planet




And you guys banned guns in the 1920s, and by 1939 you began murdering 15 million innocent men, women and children.

Let's look at the total between Europe and the U.S. as far as murder is concerned...


1939-1945..... 6 years.   15 million innocent men, women and children murdered in Europe....after you banned and confiscated guns to make people safer.....murdered by their governments who banned and confiscated guns.

246 years of United States history, the entire history........2,460,000 murdered by guns....with the vast majority of victims criminals murdered by other criminals.

And you can't see the difference......that is what a foolish human being you are....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> You can always tell when a gun massacre has happened when 2AGuy shows up with this NRA Spooge.




Please point to any of the information I post that comes from the NRA.....please...we will wait.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

Captain Caveman said:


> ....but...but...but....but you have the 2nd Amendment, that's what keep people safe and America has the least gun incidents on the planet




Lives saved, on average, each year in the U.S. because our people can own and carry guns for self defense....

Lives saved....based on research?  By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


* that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—*

=============

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference  is due to sampling error.  to the  when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that  when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
 ----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence |The National Academies Press


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

Captain Caveman said:


> ....but...but...but....but you have the 2nd Amendment, that's what keep people safe and America has the least gun incidents on the planet




You idiots banned and confiscated guns......your governments told you it would make you safer....then those governments went on to murder 15 million of you....

Who is the idiot there?

In just 6 years your governments murdered more people in Europe than in the entire 246 year history of gun murder in the U.S....

Tell us again who the idiots really are......

NAZI GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER



*German socialists*


*By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1*

And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> You idiots banned and confiscated guns......your governments told you it would make you safer....then those governments went on to murder 15 million of you....


nobody confiscated guns in Europe before WWII.  In fact, there were still plenty of guns in private hands after WWI.  

Nobody rushed out to defend their neighbor with one of those guns when the Nazis came to take away the Jews. 

Just like no one in America rushed out with their guns to defend their Japanese neighbors when they were being rounded up by the US Government in 1942.  

Guns don't protect you from tyranny.  Because one man's tyranny is another man's "Yup, I can live with that, not my problem."  

So the notion that I have to let Awake the Rapper or Joker Holmes have a military grade weapon because, gosh, darn, they might protect me from "tyranny" is just silly. 

My guess is that when we find out more about Michael Haight, we are going to find out everyone in his life knew he was nuts, but he was able to get a gun, anyway. 

Oh, wait... we are already hearing that. 

_Enoch City police chief Jackson Ames said his department was "familiar" with the family and had been "involved in some investigations with the family a couple years prior," but did not elaborate on the reason. Ames added that there had been no recent interactions with the family._









						Who were the Haights? Police identify victims found in Enoch home
					

As a community remains in shock following the discovery of eight bodies found inside an Enoch home on Wednesday, officials released the identities of the victims who were members of one family.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## Likkmee (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


Maybz dem popo meant dey was *collectin'* a welfay check ?
Shall we assume the 3 adults had no bang bangs ?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> nobody confiscated guns in Europe before WWII.  In fact, there were still plenty of guns in private hands after WWI.
> 
> Nobody rushed out to defend their neighbor with one of those guns when the Nazis came to take away the Jews.
> 
> ...




You just lie...all the time....

France, the Nazis, and Gun Control

*In 1935, French prime minister Pierre Laval, who later served in the Vichy government during the Nazis' four-year occupation of France, commanded French citizens to surrender their firearms. Laval and France's ruling parties feared social revolution and banned "war" weapons, instituting strict gun registration policies. They believed that repressive limits on civilian gun ownership were necessary at a time of Depression-sparked unrest and ongoing conflicts among various political factions.

 Strict time limits for firearms registration and harsh penalties for noncompliance, including forfeiture, fines, and imprisonment, were put in place. 

Laval's government did not foresee the impact these restrictive measures would have on a Nazi-conquered France just five years later, when firearms surrender would be required under threat of death.

In Gun Control in Nazi-Occupied France: Tyranny and Resistance, attorney Stephen P. Halbrook explores the impact and efficacy of gun control measures on Wehrmacht-controlled France and how these measures hindered the French Resistance's fight against Nazi tyranny. The author asserts that Laval's 1935 gun control efforts left the French people vulnerable to the Nazi invaders and ill equipped to deal with the Nazi invasion of 1940, plus simplified the Nazi efforts to confiscate firearms and impede a French resistance.*

Time for a History Lesson about Gun Control | Stephen P. Halbrook


*Purportedly to fight violence in the streets, Germany’s Weimar Republic decreed gun registration in 1931, but warned that the records must not fall into the hands of radical elements. Hitler seized power in 1933 and used those very records to disarm political opponents and Jews in order to render them incapable of any form of resistance.*


*Political protest in France prompted Prime Minister Pierre Laval in 1935 to decree firearm registration and repression of the right to assemble. What could possibly go wrong?


The registration records were critical to the Nazis who overran France in 1940, imposed the death penalty for not turning in guns, and conscripted the French police to ferret out violators. Despite the chance of being executed, numerous French citizens did not surrender their firearms.*


*The very same Pierre Laval became the chief collaborator of the Nazis during the occupation. The newspapers regularly reported the names of gun owners shot by firing squads.
The brave French who had never registered their guns and retained them formed the basis for the Resistance. To be sure, they never had sufficient arms, and prewar restrictions on “military style” firearms hampered their efforts, leaving them to resist with inferior weapons. Yet they were able to commit acts of sabotage, gain intelligence, and sustain an underground movement to assist the Allies. After D-Day, they engaged in open armed resistance.


https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/v...rch="french gun confiscation 1935 fact check"

More important, as a historical matter, the passage of gun registration laws in Germany during the first part of the twentieth century is a complicated matter.


**Following Germany's defeat in World War I, the Weimar Republic passed very strict gun control laws essentially banning all gun ownership, in an attempt both to stabilize the country and to comply with the Versailles Treaty of 1919. 
-------**

But even before the Treaty was signed, the German parliament of the Weimar Republic enacted legislation prohibiting gun possession
----

First, in 1938, the Nazi regime reenacted strict gun control laws and regulations that required licensing and reporting for the acquisition, transfer, or carrying of handguns, and for dealing and manufacturing in firearms and ammunition.89 In this respect, the Nazis had in place stringent gun regulation, including strict reporting requirements. Second, the Nazi gun laws of 1938 specifically banned Jewish persons from obtaining a license to manufacture firearms or ammunition.
*
*In this respect, the Nazi gun laws were more restrictive than those under the Weimar Republic.*
*----

Fourth, approximately eight months after enacting the 1938 Nazi gun laws, Hitler imposed regulations prohibiting Jewish persons from possessing any dangerous weapons, including firearms. The Nazi regime implemented this prohibition by confiscating weapons, including guns, from Jewish persons, and subsequently engaged in genocide of the Jewish population.

Oh....and why we don't want licenses for gun owners...the Germans did it.....

Thus, the 1928 Law put into effect a strict licensing scheme that covered all aspects of firearms-from the manufacture to the sale, including repair and even the reloading of ammunition."°
-----

Finally, with regard to disarming the Jewish population, there is no dispute that the Nazis did disarm Jewish persons aggressively-of all firearms, as well as "truncheons or stabbing weapons. ' , 129 The Minister of the Interior, Frick, enacted Regulations Against Jew's Possession of Weapons on November 11, 1938, which effectively deprived all Jewish persons of the right to possess firearms or other weapons. It was a regulation prohibiting Jewish persons from having any dangerous weapon-not just guns.
-----

Moreover, prior to that, the German police and Nazis used the 1938 firearms law as an excuse to disarm Jewish persons. In Breslau, for instance, as Halbrook reports, the city police chief decreed the seizure of all firearms from Jewish persons on the ground that "the Jewish population 'cannot be regarded as trustworthy"' -using the language from the 1928 and 1938 firearms laws.131*


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Um, that didn't have anything to do with my point, but never mind.


Translation - "Yes, I stuck my foot in my mouth, but I won't admit it."

Have a nice day


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> nobody confiscated guns in Europe before WWII.  In fact, there were still plenty of guns in private hands after WWI.
> 
> Nobody rushed out to defend their neighbor with one of those guns when the Nazis came to take away the Jews.
> 
> ...


Come take them liar.


----------



## DBA (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> No, Cleetus, a deranged person with a gun is going to be able to kill people a lot easier than one with a baseball bat.



Yeah, just like a good guy with a gun will be able to defend himself a lot easier against someone with a baseball bat. You aren't too bright.


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> You just lie...all the time....
> 
> France, the Nazis, and Gun Control
> 
> ...


And no matter what post, it won't stop lying. All that pos does is lie.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> In 1935, French prime minister Pierre Laval, who later served in the Vichy government during the Nazis' four-year occupation of France, commanded French citizens to surrender their firearms. Laval and France's ruling parties feared social revolution and banned "war" weapons, instituting strict gun registration policies. They believed that repressive limits on civilian gun ownership were necessary at a time of Depression-sparked unrest and ongoing conflicts among various political factions.



Except the guns weren't confiscated, just registered.  









						Gun Control in Nazi-Occupied France: Tyranny and Resistance | Stephen P. Halbrook
					

Nazi Germany invaded France in 1940. In every occupied town, Nazi soldiers put up posters that demanded that civilians surrender their firearms within twenty-four hours or else be shot. Despite the consequences, many French citizens refused to comply with the order. In Gun Control in...




					www.independent.org
				




Taking advantage of a prewar 1935 French gun registration law, the Nazis used registration records kept by the French police to easily locate gun owners to enforce their demand that firearms be surrendered. Countless French citizens faced firing squads for refusing to comply. But many French citizens had resisted the 1935 decree, preventing the Nazis from fully enforcing the confiscation order. Throughout the Nazi occupation, the French Resistance grew, arming itself to conduct resistance activities and fight back against the occupation.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

DBA said:


> Yeah, just like a good guy with a gun will be able to defend himself a lot easier against someone with a baseball bat. You aren't too bright.


Actually, a good guy with a gun is 43 times more likely to lose a family member than kill a bad guy with that gun


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Translation - "Yes, I stuck my foot in my mouth, but I won't admit it."
> 
> Have a nice day


No, it really didn't...   This wasn't a case of a judge releasing someone. 
This is a guy who murdered his family because his wife was dumping him, and his little Mormon ass couldn't take it. 

GUess he's not getting into the Celestial Heaven... off to the outer darkness with you!


----------



## pknopp (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> You don't need a gun to murder your family.  A Quick trip to walmart will get you what you need.....for a lot less too...18.00 for a bottle of anti-freeze....
> 
> *Despite confessing to police that she poisoned her husband, son and daughter with antifreeze, Diane Staudte says she is innocent.*
> 
> ...



 I never argued you needed a gun to kill people.


----------



## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, a good guy with a gun is 43 times more likely to lose a family member than kill a bad guy with that gun





A claim debunked decades ago, yet here you are trotting it out as if it means something.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Jan 5, 2023)

1srelluc said:


> I've yet to see a gun grow little hands and feet and go on a murderous rampage on it's own.....Same with knives, machetes, vehicles, or any other inanimate object folks use to off each other with.



It's funny when people bring up issues out of the blue that they believe are their "winning issues".

The reality is, on the other hand, that people with guns are empowered. We know this because where there's easy access to firearms, there's often a higher rate of gun murders. 

3/4 of all murders in the US happen with guns. It's not a coincidence. That your response to the deaths of people is to bring up some tired, nonsensical argument.... well.... are you "pro-life"?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

westwall said:


> A claim debunked decades ago, yet here you are trotting it out as if it means something.


Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" does not constitute debunking.


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, a good guy with a gun is 43 times more likely to lose a family member than kill a bad guy with that gun


Lying scum repeats the same lie over and over.


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" does not constitute debunking.


Everyone can see that's not what happened, liar.


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> No, it really didn't...   This wasn't a case of a judge releasing someone.
> This is a guy who murdered his family because his wife was dumping him, and his little Mormon ass couldn't take it.
> 
> GUess he's not getting into the Celestial Heaven... off to the outer darkness with you!


where is your proof he was Mormon?

5 kids?

That's only proof you're a moron.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> It's funny when people bring up issues out of the blue that they believe are their "winning issues".
> 
> The reality is, on the other hand, that people with guns are empowered. We know this because where there's easy access to firearms, there's often a higher rate of gun murders.
> 
> 3/4 of all murders in the US happen with guns. It's not a coincidence. That your response to the deaths of people is to bring up some tired, nonsensical argument.... well.... are you "pro-life"?




And you fail to mention the fact that normal Americans with guns save lives every single day, more lives than are taken when criminals shoot other criminals in democrat party controlled cities....

Guns in the hands of normal people stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings, kidnappings, and even mass public shootings......not to forget that the mere presence of guns in America keeps our government from murdering us in our millions, unlike in Europe where they banned and confiscated guns, then went on to murder 15 million people......men, women and children.

Lives saved....based on research?  By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct

* that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—
*
==========
A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference  is due to sampling error.  to the  when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that  when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
 ----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence |The National Academies Press


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" does not constitute debunking.




This does....

Kellerman who did the study that came up with the 43 times more likely myth, was forced to retract that study and to do the research over when other academics pointed out how flawed his methods were....he then changed the 43 times number to 2.7, but he was still using flawed data to get even that number.....

Below is the study where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7 and below that is the explanation as to why that number isn't even accurate.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-conten...ack-of-Public-Health-Research-on-Firearms.pdf

3. The Incredibly Flawed Public Health Research Guns in the Home At a town hall at George Mason University in January 2016, President Obama said, “If you look at the statistics, there's no doubt that there are times where somebody who has a weapon has been able to protect themselves and scare off an intruder or an assailant, but what is more often the case is that they may not have been able to protect themselves, but they end up being the victim of the weapon that they purchased themselves.”25 The primary proponents of this claim are Arthur Kellermann and his many coauthors. A gun, they have argued, is less likely to be used in killing a criminal than it is to be used in killing someone the gun owner knows. In one of the most well-known public health studies on firearms, Kellermann’s “case sample” consists of 444 homicides that occurred in homes. His control group had 388 individuals who lived near the deceased victims and were of the same sex, race, and age range. After learning about the homicide victims and control subjects—whether they owned a gun, had a drug or alcohol problem, etc.—these authors attempted to see if the probability of a homicide correlated with gun ownership. Amazingly these studies assume that if someone died from a gun shot, and a gun was owned in the home, that it was the gun in the home that killed that person. The paper is clearly misleading, as it fails to report that in only 8 of these 444 homicide cases was the gun that had been kept in the home the murder weapon.Moreover, the number of criminals stopped with a gun is much higher than the number killed in defensive gun uses. In fact, the attacker is killed in fewer than 1 out of every 1,000 defensive gun uses. Fix either of these data errors and the results are reversed. To demonstrate, suppose that we use the same statistical method—with a matching control group—to do a study on the efficacy of hospital care. Assume that we collect data just as these authors did, compiling a list of all the people who died in a particular county over the period of a year. Then we ask their relatives whether they had been admitted to the hospital during the previous year. We also put together a control sample consisting of neighbors who are part of the same sex, race, and age group. Then we ask these men and women whether they have been in a hospital during the past year. My bet is that those who spent time in hospitals are much more likely to have died.


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

*Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.*


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

*Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.


-----
*

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t.

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8

In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns.

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count.

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example, 

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, 

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and 

17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. 
Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6
======

Read more: CDC’s Antigun Agenda On Display: So-Called Experts Abuse Our Trust
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

In 1993,Dr. Kellermann, who was funded in 1991 by a CDC grant, had to soften the ’43 times’ number to ‘2.7 times.’ He concluded, “Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.” Kellerman thought the 2.7 number would not sound quite so impossible.
These papers, and many others from the medical community, were criticized by researchers who statistically showed that Kellermann’s conclusions were wildly wrong. Kellermann used a technique that depended on matching subjects and controls, except that the subject and control groups did not match. The subject group lived a very high-risk, alcohol and drug-filled lifestyle, while the controls did not.
Kellermann had singled out people who exist at the edges of society. Kellermann did not study normal gun owners, just criminals who had guns, but he exaggerated his findings.


> Because of this confusion, Kellerman helped change American gun politics by injecting unwarranted fear into the gun debate. Too many journalists just read the conclusion of a “scientific” paper, and skip over the rest as too complex for them.


Despite these serious methodological problems, Kellermann’s results are still widely accepted in the public health field.​Public-health advocates appear willing to run with any published study, regardless of how weak its methods, just so long as the findings are congenial to their assumption that guns are dangerous.
Then, in 1996, after Congress requested Kellermann’s original data, which he failed to release, Congress cut funding to the CDC for advocacy research. No funding was cut for medical research, just advocacy research.

CDC’s Antigun Agenda On Display: So-Called Experts Abuse Our Trust


----------



## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" does not constitute debunking.






Correct.  You should stop.  Time for you to grow up.


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" does not constitute debunking.


Why do you keep doing it then?


----------



## 1srelluc (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> It's funny when people bring up issues out of the blue that they believe are their "winning issues".
> 
> The reality is, on the other hand, that people with guns are empowered. *We know this because where there's easy access to firearms, there's often a higher rate of gun murders.*
> 
> 3/4 of all murders in the US happen with guns. It's not a coincidence. That your response to the deaths of people is to bring up some tired, nonsensical argument.... well.... are you "pro-life"?


Odd that, in my AO we are armed to the teeth yet we have a very low gun crime rate....So how do you square that?

A few weeks back a local grandma held a ne'er-do-well at gun point till the cops _finally_ arrived and toted him off to jail.....She did not ventilate him.....That happened about 3 miles away from me.





*He was held without bond too. *


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 5, 2023)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Irrelevant British subject is irrelevant.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jan 5, 2023)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.



  You are now forever trapped in a classic paradox, from which you will never escape.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Jan 5, 2023)

1srelluc said:


> Odd that, in my AO we are armed to the teeth yet we have a very low gun crime rate....So how do you square that?
> 
> A few weeks back a local grandma held a ne'er-do-well at gun point till the cops _finally_ arrived and toted him off to jail.....She did not ventilate him.....That happened about 3 miles away from me.
> 
> ...



Because issues are complex. It's not as simple as looking at ONE STATISTIC and saying "oh, this means that".
The thing is that most people, 95% at the very least want simple answers to complex problems, and with their simple answers they'll declare themselves geniuses for having been told to think that.

What crimes do people use guns to commit? (What's that for grammar?)
Generally I'd say there are crimes like theft, robbery etc, the taking of something from someone is much, MUCH easier with a gun. Rape would also come in this, it is "taking something", ie, sex.
There's anger issues, people get angry, they solve the problem by being all macho and pulling out a gun. Drug crimes with guns might fall into this. Though it might also fall into the category of get one over on your opponents, a team sport, gang violence etc.
Clearly there's murder, though how many murders are planned in the first place, and how many happen in the course of one of the previous I don't know.



			https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
		


"According to the Victim Survey (NCVS), 25% of the victims of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault in 1993 faced an offender armed with a handgun. Of all firearm-related crime reported to the survey, 86% involved handguns."

Rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault. The main uses for guns, perhaps, details are vague, obviously as there isn't a concise recording of such things.

Who commits such crimes? Robbery is mostly a low income crime. Drugs are often pushed by people from lower income groups, lower education groups. A lot of this has to do with poverty.

Who's going to use a gun? Or who's going to commit a crime? Someone who has less to lose. A dude who earns $1 million a year is much, much less likely to commit such crimes. They have more to lose.
So, you have an area with lots of guns, but lots of people with lots to lose, you're going to have less gun violence than an area with less guns, but with lots of people with less to lose, with more to gain from crime.

However guns sometimes are used impulsively.

Here's some facts.
The UK has very strict gun laws. Some criminals have guns, but handguns aren't easy to get.






						Guns in the United Kingdom — Firearms, gun law and gun control
					

Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns in United Kingdom, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development




					www.gunpolicy.org
				




Gun homicides in the UK 0.02 in 2015 

Germany, a safe country, but with rather more relaxed gun laws. 4.96 guns per 100 in the UK, 30.95 guns per 100 people in Germany. 

Gun homicides in Germany 0.06 in 2015, or three times higher. 

In Switzerland, the poster boy for all gun lovers, up to 41 guns per 100 people in civilian hands, plus some as their system is a little different and many people are militia member with guns (under strict conditions). 

Gun homicides in Switzerland 0.09 in 2019. (0.22 in 2015, so you can see it fluctuates a bit, it was higher in the early 2000s) 

So, more guns here does mean more gun homicides.

However, Switzerland's homicide rate is 0.5 per 100,000 people, the UK's is 1.12. Clearly guns are having an impact. Switzerland has more gun murders, 4.5 times more than the UK, and yet has half the murder rate. 

People with access to guns will use guns when they want to do something. A gun makes a person much more powerful.

So why does the US have a MUCH, MUCH higher rate than this? Easy access to guns. Germany and Switzerland have guns, but access for criminals is much less. Which means a gun is more precious. In the US a criminal with a gun might use it in a crime and abandon it when chased by the police. 

In Europe they're less likely to use it in a crime, for fear of losing it. Less likely to throwing it away as it's much harder to replace.

Yes, some people can use guns to stop crime. However the US, in spite of such a thing, has a higher murder rate (by 5 times) than the UK, it still has high rates of crime.
Alaska with LOADS OF GUNS has the HIGHEST rape rate. Surely these women can use their guns to stop this rape. Whereas NY has one of the lowest, lots of women without guns..... not able to protect themselves from the hoards wanting to rape them.


----------



## miketx (Jan 5, 2023)

Bob Blaylock said:


> You are now forever trapped in a classic paradox, from which you will never escape.


I had my own variation. "Everything I say is a lie." lol.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> You [Incel Joe] just lie...all the time....


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jan 5, 2023)

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" does not constitute debunking.
> ...



  Someone who hasn't achieved any better level of intellectual maturity than this by the time it is sixty years old, is never going to do so.  If anything, Incel Joe seems to have declined rather significantly in the last week or so.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> This does....
> 
> Kellerman who did the study that came up with the 43 times more likely myth, was forced to retract that study and to do the research over when other academics pointed out how flawed his methods were....he then changed the 43 times number to 2.7, but he was still using flawed data to get even that number.....


A clarification isn't a retraction.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Someone who hasn't achieved any better level of intellectual maturity than this by the time it is sixty years old, is never going to do so. If anything, Joe seems to have declined rather significantly in the last week or so.


Still living in Mormon Bob's head.   

I mean, hey, this is actually a sad situation.  A disturbed man who was on police radar was able to get a gun and annihilate his family.  And the thought of the gun nuts is "Don't take my guns!!!"


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Hugo Furst said:


> where is your proof he was Mormon?


Lives in Utah.
Five Kids.
Lives in a town called "Enoch". 

Just screams, "Crazy Mormon".  

Sad about the kids, though.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


since no law will ever stop a bad person from doing bad things they should have had a gun too,,


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Lives in Utah.
> Five Kids.
> Lives in a town called "Enoch".
> 
> ...





JoeB131 said:


> Just screams, "Crazy Mormon".



the only one screaming "Crazy Mormon" is you.


and, like most of your opinions, you're probably wrong


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Hugo Furst said:


> the only one screaming "Crazy Mormon" is you.
> 
> 
> and, like most of your opinions, you're probably wrong



You might have a point, "Crazy" and "Mormon" is a bit redundant.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> A clarification isn't a retraction.




He did the study all over you dipstick......his number went from 43 to 2.7 and people who reviewed the study said he still got it wrong.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Because issues are complex. It's not as simple as looking at ONE STATISTIC and saying "oh, this means that".
> The thing is that most people, 95% at the very least want simple answers to complex problems, and with their simple answers they'll declare themselves geniuses for having been told to think that.
> 
> What crimes do people use guns to commit? (What's that for grammar?)
> ...




Again...you have to actually address the 15 million people murdered in Europe in just 6 years.

More people than in the entire 246 year history of guns in America and gun murder.....

You don't want to face that number so you ignore it......

Men can rape women without guns.....because they use knives, or beat them since they are stronger than their victims....

Guns in the hands of the women?   How about you address that?

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

*First,* a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

*Second,* raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

*Third,* a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

*Fourth,* we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.

The guns in Alaska are hunting rifles and they have very few police and those police are stretched thin over a barren landscape.......you dope.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Because issues are complex. It's not as simple as looking at ONE STATISTIC and saying "oh, this means that".
> The thing is that most people, 95% at the very least want simple answers to complex problems, and with their simple answers they'll declare themselves geniuses for having been told to think that.
> 
> What crimes do people use guns to commit? (What's that for grammar?)
> ...



Germany murdered 15 million people in 6 years....more people murdered than in the entire 246 year history of the United States by gun murder.....

How about you average in those murders and see what you come up with....


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> He did the study all over you dipstick......his number went from 43 to 2.7 and people who reviewed the study said he still got it wrong.



He did nothing of the sort.  in fact, he repeated the study in other cities and found pretty much the same results.   Which is what you would expect to find. 

If 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicides and 50% of gun homicides are domestic violence, then OF COURSE the vast majority of gun deaths are going to be the gun you find in the house.  

The FBI has found that out of the 43,000 gun deaths we have every year, only 200 or so are justified self-defense by civilians.  So if anything, the 43-1 figure is probably conservative.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

2aguy said:


> Again...you have to actually address the 15 million people murdered in Europe in just 6 years.



Okay.  War sucks. People die.  It's been addressed. 

Guns don't prevent wars from sucking. 

I notice the one point you refuse to address is when the American Government was rounding up Japanese Americans, not one person with a gun in the US rushed out to stop this massive violation of human rights. 

Any more than one German with a gun rushed out to stop the Nazis from rounding up the Jews.  

because- PEOPLE WON'T PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE FOR STRANGERS.  Whether or not they have guns or not. 

Frankly, I see the police kicking down your door, I'm going to assume they have a darned good reason.


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> You might have a point, "Crazy" and "Mormon" is a bit redundant.


only to morons.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Hugo Furst said:


> only to morons.



Nope, the Mormons are really kind of crazy.
Baptizing dead people
Blood Atonement
Magic Underwear
Eternal marriage
Ruling Planets in the afterlife.
Jesus and Satan are brothers
God lives on a planet called Kolob.


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Nope, the Mormons are really kind of crazy.
> Baptizing dead people
> Blood Atonement
> Magic Underwear
> ...


and they think you are.


with good reason.


(they are saner than you)


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2023)

Hugo Furst said:


> and they think you are.
> 
> 
> with good reason.



Um, sure.  Let me know when you are ready to have a theological argument about whether or not Joseph Smith was talking to God. 
Since you haven't converted, then you don't believe he was any more than I do.


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Um, sure.  Let me know when you are ready to have a theological argument about whether or not Joseph Smith was talking to God.
> Since you haven't converted, then you don't believe he was any more than I do.


Do you have a similar list for Catholics? Protestant? Baptists? Other religions?

The stain on your brain must be excruciating.

take 2, and ease the pressure


----------



## 1srelluc (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> Because issues are complex. It's not as simple as looking at ONE STATISTIC and saying "oh, this means that".
> The thing is that most people, 95% at the very least want simple answers to complex problems, and with their simple answers they'll declare themselves geniuses for having been told to think that.
> 
> What crimes do people use guns to commit? (What's that for grammar?)
> ...


And that tripe, ladies and gentleman, is what mental masturbation looks like....And it isn't pretty.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Jan 5, 2023)

1srelluc said:


> And that tripe, ladies and gentleman, is what mental masturbation looks like....And it isn't pretty.



What a waste of my fucking time

Welcome to the ignore list.


----------



## westwall (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> What a waste of my fucking time
> 
> Welcome to the ignore list.




Ignore me too please!😁


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> He did nothing of the sort.  in fact, he repeated the study in other cities and found pretty much the same results.   Which is what you would expect to find.
> 
> If 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicides and 50% of gun homicides are domestic violence, then OF COURSE the vast majority of gun deaths are going to be the gun you find in the house.
> 
> The FBI has found that out of the 43,000 gun deaths we have every year, only 200 or so are justified self-defense by civilians.  So if anything, the 43-1 figure is probably conservative.



You lie and lie....troll.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2023)

JoeB131 said:


> Okay.  War sucks. People die.  It's been addressed.
> 
> Guns don't prevent wars from sucking.
> 
> ...


----------



## 1srelluc (Jan 5, 2023)

frigidweirdo said:


> What a waste of my fucking time
> 
> Welcome to the ignore list.


----------



## 2aguy (Friday at 12:43 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Okay.  War sucks. People die.  It's been addressed.
> 
> Guns don't prevent wars from sucking.
> 
> ...




Moron.  The 15 million were not casualties of the war.  They were civilians rounded up and murdered in forests and death camps by the socialists.

Switzerland didn't have a Holocaust.......the rest of Europe did....


----------



## 2aguy (Friday at 12:44 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> He did nothing of the sort.  in fact, he repeated the study in other cities and found pretty much the same results.   Which is what you would expect to find.
> 
> If 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicides and 50% of gun homicides are domestic violence, then OF COURSE the vast majority of gun deaths are going to be the gun you find in the house.
> 
> The FBI has found that out of the 43,000 gun deaths we have every year, only 200 or so are justified self-defense by civilians.  So if anything, the 43-1 figure is probably conservative.




And you know that most gun self defense means the criminals see the gun in the hands of the victim and run away...only around 200 are really stupid and press the attack to the point they are shot and killed by the victim....you moron.....


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 2:41 AM)

Penelope said:


> They must be white.


AMormon family – including five children – were found shot dead inside of their rural Utah home by the family patriarch on Tuesday. The children's father then turned the gun on himself. 

The bodies of Michael, 42, and Tausha Haight, 40, their five children and Tausha's mother, Gail, 78, were found on Wednesday in the town of Enoch with gunshot wounds.

The children were only identified as three daughters, aged 17, 12, and 7, and two sons, aged 7 and 4 years old. Police had been called to their home to perform a welfare check by other family members. 








			Michael Haight accused of killing seven members of his family, including his five children, in Utah


----------



## miketx (Friday at 3:16 AM)

Penelope said:


> AMormon family – including five children – were found shot dead inside of their rural Utah home by the family patriarch on Tuesday. The children's father then turned the gun on himself.
> 
> The bodies of Michael, 42, and Tausha Haight, 40, their five children and Tausha's mother, Gail, 78, were found on Wednesday in the town of Enoch with gunshot wounds.
> 
> ...


Makes you deliriously happy.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 3:32 AM)

I feel bad for what these kids had to go through...









						What we know about the family killed in Enoch murder-suicide
					

Investigators are giving more context as to what may have been unfolding inside the home leading up to the act of violence that has shaken the entire community.




					www.google.com


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Friday at 3:41 AM)

miketx said:


> All the lying is on you traitor.


Guns aren’t going to be ‘banned,’ guns are going to be ‘confiscated.’

But the dishonest right will continue to propagate these lies regardless while doing nothing to address the problem.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 3:41 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> You can always tell when a gun massacre has happened when 2AGuy shows up with this NRA Spooge.


No such thing as a gun massacre liar.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 3:41 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Guns aren’t going to be ‘banned,’ guns are going to be ‘confiscated.’
> 
> But the dishonest right will continue to propagate these lies regardless while doing nothing to address the problem.


Come get them commie. Be there.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Friday at 3:49 AM)

DBA said:


> Yeah, just like a good guy with a gun will be able to defend himself a lot easier against someone with a baseball bat. You aren't too bright.


‘Good guy with a gun’ is a myth:

‘…the gun rights ideologue argues [that] the responsibility for public safety falls in the hands of individuals: the “good guy with a gun.” If well-intentioned armed individuals are everywhere, then they can gun down evildoers in the act. Armed citizens supplement the police — and, in some life-and-death situations, replace them entirely.

The research on this theory is not promising. Concealed carry laws do not appear to significantly reduce homicides or other violent crimes; placing armed guards in schools does not protect them from mass shootings. In fact, one study found that schools with armed guards were more likely to have a higher death toll during a mass shooting.’









						A child can’t be a "good guy with a gun"
					

How a gun rights myth paved the way for nightmares like Uvalde.




					www.vox.com


----------



## miketx (Friday at 3:50 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> ‘Good guy with a gun’ is a myth:
> 
> ‘…the gun rights ideologue argues [that] the responsibility for public safety falls in the hands of individuals: the “good guy with a gun.” If well-intentioned armed individuals are everywhere, then they can gun down evildoers in the act. Armed citizens supplement the police — and, in some life-and-death situations, replace them entirely.
> 
> ...


You howler monkeys are tiresome with your lies.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Friday at 3:52 AM)

Bob Blaylock said:


> You are now forever trapped in a classic paradox, from which you will never escape.


It’s a lie and you’re a liar – as are most on the right.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 4:00 AM)

Lots of moving parts with this story. The least of which is the "guns" aspect...


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 4:03 AM)

miketx said:


> Makes you deliriously happy.


I despise a man killing his family or anybody else.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Friday at 4:10 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> The thing is that most people,...want simple answers to complex problems


Correct.

And gun crime and violence is a complex problem that can’t be solved with simple answers or solutions – such as banning guns and placing further restrictions on guns.

Likewise, more guns is not the answer, ‘good guy with a gun’ is a myth – the solution to gun crime and violence will require making fundamental changes to the very nature of American society beyond that of more laws and more guns.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Friday at 4:12 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Still living in Mormon Bob's head.
> 
> I mean, hey, this is actually a sad situation.  A disturbed man who was on police radar was able to get a gun and annihilate his family.  And the thought of the gun nuts is "Don't take my guns!!!"


Particularly idiotic given the fact no one’s guns are going to be ‘taken away.’


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 4:14 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Particularly idiotic given the fact no one’s guns are going to be ‘taken away.’


What are "red flag" infringements meant to do again..? It escapes me at the moment...


----------



## frigidweirdo (Friday at 4:17 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Correct.
> 
> And gun crime and violence is a complex problem that can’t be solved with simple answers or solutions – such as banning guns and placing further restrictions on guns.
> 
> Likewise, more guns is not the answer, ‘good guy with a gun’ is a myth – the solution to gun crime and violence will require making fundamental changes to the very nature of American society beyond that of more laws and more guns.



Sure, reducing easy access to guns works, but it has to work with other measures.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Friday at 4:20 AM)

Penelope said:


> AMormon family – including five children – were found shot dead inside of their rural Utah home by the family patriarch on Tuesday. The children's father then turned the gun on himself.
> 
> The bodies of Michael, 42, and Tausha Haight, 40, their five children and Tausha's mother, Gail, 78, were found on Wednesday in the town of Enoch with gunshot wounds.
> 
> ...


The fact is that this doesn’t belong in the Second Amendment forum – the topic has nothing to do with the regulation of firearms, court rulings concerning firearms, or proposed firearm legislation; it’s a sad and tragic current event illustrating this country’s failure to address mental illness and its disastrous consequences.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Friday at 4:23 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sure, reducing easy access to guns works, but it has to work with other measures.


The goal is that with other measures and efforts, access to firearms becomes irrelevant, regardless how easy.


----------



## Baron Von Murderpaws (Friday at 5:02 AM)

Interesting how, when I read these kinds of articles, the people are members of some church.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:10 AM)

Hugo Furst said:


> Do you have a similar list for Catholics? Protestant? Baptists? Other religions?



Well, I do think all religious are a little silly.  

But Mormonism is an outright fraud perpetrated by a pedophile con man named Joseph Smith. 

Oh, we have established these were Mormons. 



Penelope said:


> AMormon family – including five children – were found shot dead inside of their rural Utah home by the family patriarch on Tuesday. The children's father then turned the gun on himself.
> 
> The bodies of Michael, 42, and Tausha Haight, 40, their five children and Tausha's mother, Gail, 78, were found on Wednesday in the town of Enoch with gunshot wounds.
> 
> ...


----------



## Flash (Friday at 5:18 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sure, reducing easy access to guns works, but it has to work with other measures.


This was a crazy family doing crazy things.  Murder and suicide.  No gun laws would have changed anything.

I feel sorry for the poor kids having such idiot parents.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 5:22 AM)

Penelope said:


> I despise a man killing his family or anybody else.


Fake news. You howler monkeys love that.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 5:24 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Well, I do think all religious are a little silly.
> 
> But Mormonism is an outright fraud perpetrated by a pedophile con man named Joseph Smith.
> 
> Oh, we have established these were Mormons.


Hey, can you howler monkeys turn it up a little? I've not laughed this hard in weeks.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:26 AM)

Crazy religion and guns.   Not surprising.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:30 AM)

Flash said:


> This was a crazy family doing crazy things.  Murder and suicide.  No gun laws would have changed anything.
> 
> I feel sorry for the poor kids having such idiot parents.



Was it a crazy family, or was it just one crazy guy who lost his job and his wife threw him out of the house?  

The only reason why this is getting attention was it was a nice white and delightsome Mormon family.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 5:32 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Was it a crazy family, or was it just one crazy guy who lost his job and his wife threw him out of the house?
> 
> The only reason why this is getting attention was it was a nice white and delightsome Mormon family.


These kinds of things makes you howler monkeys deliriously happy. You can't stop howling about it.


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 5:34 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Was it a crazy family, or was it just one crazy guy who lost his job and his wife threw him out of the house?
> 
> The only reason why this is getting attention was it was a nice white and delightsome Mormon family.


A person kills kids get their name in the paper. And white, you won't hear this on Fox cable news.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:35 AM)

miketx said:


> These kinds of things makes you howler monkeys deliriously happy. You can't stop howling about it.



Not at all.   We have 20,000 gun homicides and 25,000 gun suicides in this country every year, and we don't do anything about it. 
We won't do anything about it this time, either.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 5:37 AM)

Baron Von Murderpaws said:


> Interesting how, when I read these kinds of articles, the people are members of some church.


More likely you tend to focus more on these kinds of stories BECAUSE they are members of a church...


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 5:39 AM)

Vastator said:


> More likely you tend to focus more on these kinds of stories BECAUSE they are members of a church...


Who isn't a member of a church. I use to be till I was around 50 or so.


----------



## beautress (Friday at 5:42 AM)

Baron Von Murderpaws said:


> Interesting how, when I read these kinds of articles, the people are members of some church.


The man had mental problems and separation anxiety so strong he betrayed family, community, and self. Killing innocents is sick as it gets.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 5:42 AM)

Penelope said:


> Who isn't a member of a church. I use to be till I was around 50 or so.


And I presume you , nor your parishioners killed your families during that time... At least I hope.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 5:43 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Not at all.   We have 20,000 gun homicides and 25,000 gun suicides in this country every year, and we don't do anything about it.
> We won't do anything about it this time, either.


Sure you will. You howler monkeys will keep crying about it while refusing to treat the mentally ill and continuing to release violent criminals from prison. Then you will continue to allow ineligible people to buy guns by failing to act when they try to buy a gun from an FFL dealer, allowing them to take possession of the of the gun instead of denying the purchase and arresting them. Now start howling monkey.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:43 AM)

Vastator said:


> More likely you tend to focus more on these kinds of stories BECAUSE they are members of a church...



Actually, the reason why this or Sandy Hook or the Aurora Theater shooting gets attention is because the victims are white. 

Thousands of people of color are shot every year, no one pays attention and we do nothing about it.  

But a family of nice, white Mormons gets shot,  we pay attention for a couple of days and then do nothing about it. 

the operative word is we do nothing about it.  

A red Flag law may have prevented this situation, but the NRA rushes into court every year and gets red flag laws struck down.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:45 AM)

beautress said:


> The man had mental problems and separation anxiety so strong he betrayed family, community, and self. Killing innocents is sick as it gets.



Which is why average citizens shouldn't own guns.  This man snapped under the pressure of losing his job and getting divorced.  Had he not had easy access to a gun, in a couple of days he probably would have learned to cope with the problems.  Or maybe just threw himself off a bridge, that would have worked, too.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 5:47 AM)

beautress said:


> The man had mental problems and separation anxiety so strong he betrayed family, community, and self. Killing innocents is sick as it gets.


Possibly. Or having lost his job, then having his wife file for divorce, during Christmas week; realizing his age, and staring down the certainty of losing not only his wife, but his kids, his home, the majority of any future income he may, or may not be able to generate, (or going to jail if he cannot generate...) made him snap. That too is a possibility. Short of the man leaving a note, we likely will never know. But from my perspective, what I do know, is that this is absolutely tragic as far as it concerns these children.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:48 AM)

miketx said:


> Sure will. You howler monkeys will keep crying about it while refusing to treat the mentally ill and continuing to release violent criminals from prison. Then you will continue to allow ineligible people to buy guns by failing to act when they try to buy a gun from an FFL dealer, allowing them to take possession of the of the gun instead of denying the purchase and arresting them.



Your side is the one that continues to cut mental health spending to give tax cuts to billionaires.  As for prisons, we already lock up 2 million people, more than even Communist China.  

This guy bought his gun legally, as near as I can tell.   He had no history of mental illness before he snapped.  He held down a good job and was respected in his Mormon community.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 5:49 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, the reason why this or Sandy Hook or the Aurora Theater shooting gets attention is because the victims are white.
> 
> Thousands of people of color are shot every year, no one pays attention and we do nothing about it.
> 
> ...


On the contrary posters often post about blacks being killed, only to have posters like you whimper about "racism" when the killers are shown to be black...


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:50 AM)

Vastator said:


> On the contrary posters often post about blacks being killed, only to have posters like you whimper about "racism" when the killers are shown to be black...



Because you blame the race and not the easy accessibility to guns.  That's why we call you on your racism.
Well, these were a bunch of nice white Mormons.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 5:55 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Because you blame the race and not the easy accessibility to guns.  That's why we call you on your racism.
> Well, these were a bunch of nice white Mormons.


Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Regardless of race. This thread  is about neither guns, or race. Go sperg out about your obsessions on another thread.


----------



## surada (Friday at 6:02 AM)

Vastator said:


> And I presume you , nor your parishioners killed your families during that time... At least I hope.



Are you blaming this monstrous tragedy on the Mormon Church?


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 6:06 AM)

surada said:


> Are you blaming this monstrous tragedy on the Mormon Church?


No you fucking illiterate. I'm clearly stating that nothing suggests this tragedy was caused by any religion. Now go take your little thumbs down button, and attend a literacy comprehension class.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 6:07 AM)

Vastator said:


> Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Regardless of race. This thread is about neither guns, or race. Go sperg out about your obsessions on another thread.



This thread is exactly about both.  We all wring our hands because these were nice white people, and only because this guy had a gun did this family die.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 6:11 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Your side is the one that continues to cut mental health spending to give tax cuts to billionaires.  As for prisons, we already lock up 2 million people, more than even Communist China.
> 
> This guy bought his gun legally, as near as I can tell.   He had no history of mental illness before he snapped.  He held down a good job and was respected in his Mormon community.


I don't know what your murderer did, howler monkey. I do know what you rights trashing vermin do to keep crimes committed with guns going, and what I described is exactly what you lying filth do. Now howl louder, monkey.


----------



## gipper (Friday at 6:13 AM)

Penelope said:


> Who isn't a member of a church. I use to be till I was around 50 or so.


The Church of Satan?


----------



## gipper (Friday at 6:15 AM)

Vastator said:


> No you fucking illiterate. I'm clearly stating that nothing suggests this tragedy was caused by any religion. Now go take your little thumbs down button, and attend a literacy comprehension class.


Be nice!  He’s slow.

If this involved Muslims, Ds like Joe and Dummy wouldn’t dare condemn their religion.  Hypocrites!


----------



## MarcATL (Friday at 6:19 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Crazy religion and guns.   Not surprising.


Unfortunately. Sad.


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 6:20 AM)

Vastator said:


> And I presume you , nor your parishioners killed your families during that time... At least I hope.


Now I'm an atheist and I never killed anybody or know of anybody who committed murder, and I don't own a gun.


----------



## MarcATL (Friday at 6:20 AM)

Penelope said:


> Who isn't a member of a church. I use to be till I was around 50 or so.


I'm *curious*, what *church *were you a part of? As in, *denomination*.

Also, what *caused *you to ultimately *leave*?


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 6:22 AM)

gipper said:


> The Church of Satan?


All churches,  fake ideologies.


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 6:23 AM)

MarcATL said:


> I'm *curious*, what *church *were you a part of? As in, *denomination*.
> 
> Also, what *caused *you to ultimately *leave*?


Catholic and I lost my best friend. Before that I just quit believing. I watch sermons for a more that a few years, really read the bible, and I read most parts a few times.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 6:24 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Crazy religion and guns.   Not surprising.


The howler monkeys are wallowing in the blood.


----------



## gipper (Friday at 6:25 AM)

Penelope said:


> All churches,  fake ideologies.


I’ll take that as a yes.


----------



## gipper (Friday at 6:26 AM)

Penelope said:


> Catholic and I lost my best friend. Before that I just quit believing. I watch sermons for a more that a few years, really read the bible.


Did the vax get her?


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Friday at 6:29 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Because you blame the race and not the easy accessibility to guns.  That's why we call you on your racism.
> Well, these were a bunch of nice white Mormons.



  Contrary to the lies that you persist in telling, it is you who is always citing race as an excuse for subhuman criminals shit to behave as such.  To listen to you, black people can't help being criminals, and it's racist to wish for criminals to be held accountable for their behavior.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Friday at 6:38 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The goal is that with other measures and efforts, access to firearms becomes irrelevant, regardless how easy.



Well, crime will always happen because humans are inherently selfish.


----------



## gipper (Friday at 6:39 AM)

Penelope said:


> Now I'm an atheist and I never killed anybody or know of anybody who committed murder, and I don't own a gun.


You just want all unvaxxed murdered. Okay!


----------



## miketx (Friday at 6:45 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The goal is that with other measures and efforts, access to firearms becomes irrelevant, regardless how easy.


Come get mine.


----------



## surada (Friday at 6:45 AM)

gipper said:


> Be nice!  He’s slow.
> 
> If this involved Muslims, lefties like Joe and Dummy wouldn’t dare condemn their religion.  Hypocrites!



I haven't condemn the church for this crime.


----------



## gipper (Friday at 6:47 AM)

surada said:


> I haven't condemn the church for this crime.


Does it matter?


----------



## beautress (Friday at 6:49 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Which is why average citizens shouldn't own guns.  This man snapped under the pressure of losing his job and getting divorced.  Had he not had easy access to a gun, in a couple of days he probably would have learned to cope with the problems.  Or maybe just threw himself off a bridge, that would have worked, too.


When you blame guns for crimes, you forget that truly sick people will use knives, and even hands to choke their targets, cars to run over people who get in their way, poison, fisticuffs, and crimes planned in minutia to get off scot free from their murders.


Vastator said:


> Possibly. Or having lost his job, then having his wife file for divorce, during Christmas week; realizing his age, and staring down the certainty of losing not only his wife, but his kids, his home, the majority of any future income he may, or may not be able to generate, (or going to jail if he cannot generate...) made him snap. That too is a possibility. Short of the man leaving a note, we likely will never know. But from my perspective, what I do know, is that this is absolutely tragic as far as it concerns these children.


The presence of his mother-in-law could indicate that she was around to protect her daughter from threats, abuse, or whatever he did to diminish his ex-wife in the past. Nobody could have predicted his intentions to murder his dysfunctional family and anybody who interfered with his set revenge. Mental illness is virtually impossible to understand why a man would or would not be a danger to others. Killing others seems to be his outlet for his frustrations and failed career and marriage. Plus his suicide indicates he would not care to face his crimes against his own blood. Abuse has many faces.


----------



## beautress (Friday at 6:50 AM)

gipper said:


> Does it matter?


Yes it matters. Love, beautress


----------



## beautress (Friday at 6:52 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Crazy religion and guns.   Not surprising.


Most people with guns do not kill anybody, much less relatives and immediate family members. Love, beautress


----------



## toobfreak (Friday at 6:55 AM)

Penelope said:


> Who isn't a member of a church. I use to be till I was around 50 or so.
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> ...



Wow, that went over well.  Must have been the church of mental illness.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Friday at 7:03 AM)

gipper said:


> Did the vax get her?



If the vax did get her, by Penelope own standards, she should have died at home right? for making a poor choice. Close the hospitals to the vaccinated; they're getting too sick now.

Yes, Penny?


----------



## Flash (Friday at 7:05 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Was it a crazy family, or was it just one crazy guy who lost his job and his wife threw him out of the house?
> 
> The only reason why this is getting attention was it was a nice white and delightsome Mormon family.


Yes, you Moon Bats don't give a shit about all the Blacks that are shot and killed every day in the Democrat controlled big city shitholes.

You stupid Moon Bats continue to elect incompetent dumbass Democrats that won't do a damn thing to prevent the crime that is killing so many Blacks.

The Democrat idiots not only won't do anything but they let Black felons out of jail and in many cases don't even require they put up a bond when they are arrested.  In a lot of cases they don't arrest them when crimes are committed.

It is not common for a White Mormon family to be killed like that.  However, it is common for Blacks to be killed every day in many of the Democrat controlled shitholes.

Why don't you racist Libtards give a shit?

For instance, in Chicago:

hey jackass

Preliminary 2022 Totals

Shot & Killed: *665*
Shot & Wounded: *2937*
Total Shot: *3602*
Total Homicides: *735*


----------



## SweetSue92 (Friday at 7:17 AM)

SweetSue92 said:


> If the vax did get her, by Penelope own standards, she should have died at home right? for making a poor choice. Close the hospitals to the vaccinated; they're getting too sick now.
> 
> Yes, Penny?



Now why did you downvote this surada ? Look at my signature. Penny's rules. Penny's standards.


----------



## gipper (Friday at 7:18 AM)

SweetSue92 said:


> Now why did you downvote this surada ? Look at my signature. Penny's rules. Penny's standards.


He’s an idiot. So there’s that.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Friday at 7:18 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...



In Idaho the creep used a knife.

There goes your stupid talking point


----------



## SweetSue92 (Friday at 7:18 AM)

gipper said:


> He’s an idiot. So there’s that.



Surada is a woman of a "certain age" actually


----------



## 1srelluc (Friday at 7:36 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Was it a crazy family, or was it just one crazy guy who lost his job and his wife threw him out of the house?
> 
> The only reason why this is getting attention was it was a nice white and delightsome Mormon family.


I didn't want to say anything till more came out but my first thought was "UT.....Blah, it must be Mormons". 

Hopefully they won't auction their stuff off like they did to the settler's stuff after the Mountain Meadows Massacre.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 7:47 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It’s a lie and you’re a liar – as are most on the right.


----------



## Tumblin Tumbleweed (Friday at 7:48 AM)

Vastator said:


> Possibly. Or having lost his job, then having his wife file for divorce, during Christmas week; realizing his age, and staring down the certainty of losing not only his wife, but his kids, his home, the majority of any future income he may, or may not be able to generate, (or going to jail if he cannot generate...) made him snap. That too is a possibility. Short of the man leaving a note, we likely will never know. But from my perspective, what I do know, is that this is absolutely tragic as far as it concerns these children.


I don't stick up for the acts of cowards.


----------



## Hugo Furst (Friday at 7:53 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Your side is the one that continues to cut mental health spending to give tax cuts to billionaires.  As for prisons, we already lock up 2 million people, more than even Communist China.
> 
> This guy bought his gun legally, as near as I can tell.   He had no history of mental illness before he snapped.  He held down a good job and was respected in his Mormon community.


according to the article, wife wanted a divorce.


----------



## 2aguy (Friday at 7:58 AM)

Baron Von Murderpaws said:


> Interesting how, when I read these kinds of articles, the people are members of some church.



15 million murdered in Europe

25 million murdered in Russia

70 + million murdered in China

those people were not murdered by members of a church but by socialist governments


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Friday at 8:40 AM)

Police Identify Suspect In Utah Family Murder-Suicide That Left 8 Dead
					

The man killed seven family members before committing suicide Wednesday night.




					www.forbes.com
				




8 people dead... This is how many people per 100,000 are murdered in Utah, which ranks 30th in... was it murders or murders from guns? I think the latter.

I hate to say this and it may pour salt in the wounds of some people, but... This is what happens when you do not have the religion Christ instituted. That's not to say that Catholics don't commit murders but... When is the last time we heard of a devout Catholic doing something like this?

just sayin

Well, the good news is: Those children and hopefully all who were murdered are in a better place.


----------



## pknopp (Friday at 8:42 AM)

So it is as some suggested yesterday.


----------



## 1srelluc (Friday at 8:44 AM)

In before the church sells their stuff at auction.


----------



## JGalt (Friday at 9:48 AM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> Police Identify Suspect In Utah Family Murder-Suicide That Left 8 Dead
> 
> 
> The man killed seven family members before committing suicide Wednesday night.
> ...



They were godless Mormons.


----------



## RoshawnMarkwees (Friday at 9:50 AM)

“He was just cleaning his gun when it suddenly went off.”


----------



## JGalt (Friday at 9:51 AM)

RoshawnMarkwees said:


> “He was just cleaning his gun when it suddenly went off.”



8 times. Must have been a machine gun.


----------



## pknopp (Friday at 9:53 AM)

JGalt said:


> They were godless Mormons.



Texas Pastor and Ministry Leader Richard Logan Kills Family and Self – MinistryWatch


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 9:55 AM)

gipper said:


> You just want all unvaxxed murdered. Okay!


I said the unvaccinated should NOT go to the hospital. And they still shouldn't.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 10:00 AM)

Penelope said:


> I said the unvaccinated should NOT go to the hospital. And they still shouldn't.


You're a bloodthirsty animal aren't you?


----------



## RoshawnMarkwees (Friday at 10:03 AM)

JGalt said:


> 8 times. Must have been a machine gun.


It’s a George Carlin bit.


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 10:08 AM)

toobfreak said:


> Wow, that went over well.  Must have been the church of mental illness.


I like reality.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 10:10 AM)

Penelope said:


> I like reality.


You could have fooled us.


----------



## Penelope (Friday at 10:10 AM)

miketx said:


> You're a bloodthirsty animal aren't you?


I stand by what I said.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 10:16 AM)

Penelope said:


> I stand by what I said.


Like I said, a blood thirsty nut. Wants gun owners killed, babies torn from the womb, People who refuse the death jab killed. What an evil monster.

I picture you like this.


----------



## 2aguy (Friday at 11:15 AM)

Penelope said:


> I said the unvaccinated should NOT go to the hospital. And they still shouldn't.




Why not?


----------



## gipper (Friday at 11:26 AM)

Penelope said:


> I said the unvaccinated should NOT go to the hospital. And they still shouldn't.


Lol. Nazi!


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Friday at 11:36 AM)

JGalt said:


> They were godless Mormons.


do you think all mormons are Godless?

I know their religion is but some individuals are likely sincere?


----------



## whitehall (Friday at 11:39 AM)

Why would people automatically assume that a tragic event like this had anything to do with the Mormon religion? Latent bigotry?


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Friday at 11:44 AM)

whitehall said:


> Why would people automatically assume that a tragic event like this had anything to do with the Mormon religion? Latent bigotry?


well, it certainly cannot be denied that Mormonism doesn't appear to exactly prevent a lot of incidents like this.

Again, when is the last time we heard of a devout Catholic father killing his whole family?

I draw a total blank myself


----------



## pknopp (Friday at 11:48 AM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> well, it certainly cannot be denied that Mormonism doesn't appear to exactly prevent a lot of incidents like this.
> 
> Again, when is the last time we heard of a devout Catholic father killing his whole family?
> 
> I draw a total blank myself



 Obviously there is a "lot" of incidents like this. (sarcasm)


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 12:18 PM)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Contrary to the lies that you persist in telling, it is you who is always citing race as an excuse for subhuman criminals shit to behave as such. To listen to you, black people can't help being criminals, and it's racist to wish for criminals to be held accountable for their behavior.



Wow, all these conversations, you really don't get it. 

Our justice system is racist.  White people get probation, black people get prison.  White people get light sentences, black people have an arrest follow them around for the rest of their lives. 

Of course, when one of you white cultists wipes out his family, everyone will pay attention, and no one will talk about your crazy cult. 



beautress said:


> When you blame guns for crimes, you forget that truly sick people will use knives, and even hands to choke their targets, cars to run over people who get in their way, poison, fisticuffs, and crimes planned in minutia to get off scot free from their murders.



75% of murders are with guns.   I'd happily take a 75% reduction in murder.  Then we can concentrate on the other 25%.  



beautress said:


> Most people with guns do not kill anybody, much less relatives and immediate family members.


Okay, but here's the thing.  If this guy didn't have a gun, he'd have gotten another job and a divorce.  Life would have gotten better.  

Instead, he killed his whole family because he was at that level of despair.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 12:27 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Wow, all these conversations, you really don't get it.
> 
> Our justice system is racist.  White people get probation, black people get prison.  White people get light sentences, black people have an arrest follow them around for the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


Why were there so many whites and Hispanics incarcerated at the prison I worked at, liar?


----------



## miketx (Friday at 12:28 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Okay, but here's the thing. If this guy didn't have a gun, he'd have gotten another job and a divorce. Life would have gotten better.


This is the most pathetic, delusional crock of bullshit yet.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 12:39 PM)

miketx said:


> Why were there so many whites and Hispanics incarcerated at the prison I worked at, liar?


I wouldn't know.  Where is the prison you work at? 
My point stands, that blacks are more likely to get prison time for the same minor offenses whites get probation for. 









						Same Crime, More Time
					

Research by criminal justice professor William Sabol reveals that racial disparities in the U.S. prison population have declined, but Blacks are still serving longer sentences than whites.




					news.gsu.edu
				




The report, which was published by the Council on Criminal Justice, a nonpartisan think tank, examined how disparities in state imprisonment rates changed between 2000 and 2016. During that 16-year period, the ratio of Blacks to whites in state prisons fell from more than eight-to-one to five-to-one. The ratio of Hispanics to whites dropped from a little more than two-to-one to nearly one-to-one. For drug offenses, the decline was particularly stark: In 2016, Blacks were incarcerated for drug crimes at five times the rate of whites. In 2000 it was 15 times the rate.

Yet even as the number of Black men and women in prisons has declined, the report uncovered a growing disparity in the time served by Black inmates. Compared to white offenders, African Americans who entered prison could expect to serve more time than whites for all violent and for drug crimes. Prison time among Black people increased by one percent or more each year between 2000 and 2016.



miketx said:


> This is the most pathetic, delusional crock of bullshit yet.



Not at all...  a gun in the home often turns a minor domestic spat into a tragedy.  Now imagine what would have happened if this guy didn't have a gun.  A shouting match, the cops are called, everyone cools off and life goes on.


----------



## JGalt (Friday at 12:46 PM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> do you think all mormons are Godless?
> 
> I know their religion is but some individuals are likely sincere?



One of them even tied his dog to the roof of his car when he took his family on vacation.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 12:47 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> I wouldn't know.  Where is the prison you work at?
> My point stands, that blacks are more likely to get prison time for the same minor offenses whites get probation for.
> 
> 
> ...


total lies. fake news.


----------



## bodecea (Friday at 12:48 PM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> Police Identify Suspect In Utah Family Murder-Suicide That Left 8 Dead
> 
> 
> The man killed seven family members before committing suicide Wednesday night.
> ...


Hetero male?


----------



## beautress (Friday at 12:50 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Wow, all these conversations, you really don't get it.
> 
> Our justice system is racist.  White people get probation, black people get prison.  White people get light sentences, black people have an arrest follow them around for the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


People who plan to kill other people are going to kill them. Guns are not the only things that kill people. If the person who wants to murder a specific person will do so in planning 
the episode. Spousal hatred? Yes. Killing children is done because the perpetrator decides (for the same reason the exact gun killing would have been done) he is going to kill the ex-wife and her beloved baby. People as bent as the guy who shot wife, in-law, and every family child likely thought he'd never kill them.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 12:53 PM)

bodecea said:


> Hetero male?


Howler monkey dyke.


----------



## Vastator (Friday at 12:54 PM)

People facing the prospect of losing literally everything they've worked their whole life for; can at times react poorly. Tragically, and of no consideration; children are far more likely to be murdered by their mothers, than their fathers...


----------



## miketx (Friday at 12:55 PM)

Vastator said:


> People facing the prospect of losing literally everything they've worked their whole life for; can at times react poorly. Tragically, and of no consideration; children are far more likely to be murdered by their mothers, than their fathers...


5 Things To Know About Andrea Yates, The Mom Who Drowned Her 5 Kids In The Bathtub​








						5 Things To Know About Andrea Yates, The Mom Who Drowned Her 5 Kids In The Bathtub
					

On June 20, 2001, mother of five Andrea Yates drowned her children, who ranged in age from six months to seven years, in the bathtub at her home in Houston, Texas.




					www.investigationdiscovery.com


----------



## miketx (Friday at 12:56 PM)

Sex, Drugs and Sickness: Inside Susan Smith's Life in Prison After Drowning Her Sons​








						Sex, Drugs and Sickness: Susan Smith's Life in Prison, 25 Years After Drowning Her Sons
					

A look at the notorious convicted murderer's life in prison after she drowned her two sons in 1994.




					people.com


----------



## JGalt (Friday at 12:58 PM)

bodecea said:


> Hetero male?



Misogynist Runt with a "C" instead of an "R."

Category:American female serial killers - Wikipedia


----------



## toobfreak (Friday at 1:07 PM)

Penelope said:


> I like reality.



How do you know unless you try it?  The funny thing about being delusional is always being deluded into thinking that you aren't delusional.   

And before you try your grade-school trick of trying to reverse the argument against me, Hun, let me tell you that I have extensive background and training in the field of applied psychology and in the recognition of mental aberrations, and believe me, Babe, you could keep a whole team of Viennese doctors employed full time.


----------



## bodecea (Friday at 1:10 PM)

miketx said:


> If you filth would stop letting violent criminals go free...


Like the christian minister hetero male father who did this?


----------



## bodecea (Friday at 1:13 PM)

miketx said:


> Lying troll.


Like what happened with this murderous christian minister hetero male father.


----------



## bodecea (Friday at 1:16 PM)

miketx said:


> Why were there so many whites and Hispanics incarcerated at the prison I worked at, liar?


You "worked at"?   Is that what you call it?


----------



## miketx (Friday at 1:24 PM)

bodecea said:


> You "worked at"?   Is that what you call it?


That's what you call it, howler monkey. 12 hours a day.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 1:25 PM)

bodecea said:


> Like what happened with this murderous christian minister hetero male father.


You're wallowing their blood.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 1:26 PM)

bodecea said:


> Like the christian minister hetero male father who did this?


Did he have a violent past?  If so then yes.


----------



## 2aguy (Friday at 1:31 PM)

bodecea said:


> Like what happened with this murderous christian minister hetero male father.




Like what happens in democrat party controlled cities every single day....where young black males who make up about 7% of the population commit over 50% of all murder in the country......usually murdering other young black males......

So...when christian minister hetero male fathers reach that number of murders...please, get back to us right away......


----------



## bodecea (Friday at 1:31 PM)

miketx said:


> That's what you call it, howler monkey. 12 hours a day.


You "work" there.       Cool story.


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Friday at 1:31 PM)

JGalt said:


> One of them even tied his dog to the roof of his car when he took his family on vacation.


one of whom?

??


----------



## bodecea (Friday at 1:32 PM)

2aguy said:


> Like what happens in democrat party controlled cities every single day....where young black males who make up about 7% of the population commit over 50% of all murder in the country......usually murdering other young black males......
> 
> So...when christian minister hetero male fathers reach that number of murders...please, get back to us right away......


Deflecting, eh?    Yeah, I see your white flag, hun.


----------



## Mac-7 (Friday at 1:33 PM)

Civilization is falling apart

Not just in Utah or America but the entire world is spinning toward the end


----------



## 2aguy (Friday at 1:34 PM)

bodecea said:


> Deflecting, eh?    Yeah, I see your white flag, hun.




No....just putting this in perspective for you, a democrat, who votes for a political party that is actually responsible for the deaths of 10s of thousands of young black men, who only care about blacks a few weeks out of every election year..........


----------



## miketx (Friday at 1:43 PM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> one of whom?
> 
> ??


You know, them.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 1:45 PM)

bodecea said:


> You "work" there.       Cool story.


No howler, I used to work there. I recall you were baby momma to two cons.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Friday at 1:45 PM)

miketx said:


> Why were there so many whites and Hispanics incarcerated at the prison I worked at, liar?



  Perhaps they _“identify”_ as black.

  And perhaps all the good people that I know who appear to be black really _“identify”_ as white.

  Maybe Incel Joe is right, after all, in treating treating criminality as a defining characteristic of black people.

  Or maybe Incel Joe is just a batshit crazy racist piece of shit.

  Which do you think more likely?


----------



## miketx (Friday at 1:47 PM)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Which do you think more likely?


You know...


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Friday at 2:29 PM)

Mac-7 said:


> Civilization is falling apart
> 
> Not just in Utah or America but the entire world is spinning toward the end


for sure. Things seem to have escalated more speedily than ever afte the 2020 steal of the election

it's called Trickle down corruption and lawlessness


----------



## hjmick (Friday at 2:41 PM)

whitehall said:


> Why would people automatically assume that a tragic event like this had anything to do with the Mormon religion? Latent bigotry?




More like latent stupidity... or both.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 3:18 PM)

beautress said:


> People who plan to kill other people are going to kill them. Guns are not the only things that kill people. If the person who wants to murder a specific person will do so in planning


Your premise is flawed.  Most murder is not pre-meditated.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 3:19 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Your premise is flawed.  Most murder is not pre-meditated.


Howler monkey humps a fire hydrant.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 3:20 PM)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Perhaps they _“identify”_ as black.
> 
> And perhaps all the good people that I know who appear to be black really _“identify”_ as white.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Mormon Bob, since this isn't anywhere near what I said, and your tiny little brainwashed mind can't process what I did, I'm not sure what the point is... 

I know, man, I'm getting these dirty footprints all over your nice brainwashing.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Friday at 3:24 PM)

Penelope said:


> AMormon family – including five children – were found shot dead inside of their rural Utah home by the family patriarch on Tuesday. The children's father then turned the gun on himself.


Clearly, this could not have happened if Utah had California's gun control laws.


----------



## beautress (Friday at 4:18 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Your premise is flawed.  Most murder is not pre-meditated.


My hobby is reading detective magazines, watching Forensics Files, True Crime, and Criminal murder whodoneit stories that are frequently resolved with forensic scientists. Your opinion is not consistent with half a lifetime of weighing the scales of justice through well-organized sources and how murderers think. Killings outside of intentional ones are usually children handling a gun without an adult present. This is hugely discouraged by NRA training for adults and also children. Gun antagonists will often disparage those who defend responsible gun usage with no antipathy towards or even supporting the wisdom behind the Second Amendment. But I understand how sad it is for a family member who was shot and killed by a gun for any reason including trespassing on someone else's property while under the influence of a drug cartel profit that made him insensitive or even hostile to a property owner's get off or get shot order. It's unfortunate, but many states allow shooting when someone's home or land is invaded by a dopaminergic ruffian with a loose cannon mouth..


----------



## JGalt (Friday at 4:35 PM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> one of whom?
> 
> ??



Mitt Romney, the Mormon guy.

You don't remember the big stink that outraged the Democrats when Romney ran for President?

Granted, the dog was in a cage that he strapped to the roof but from the outrage, you would have thought he bit the head off a puppy.


----------



## JoeB131 (Friday at 5:07 PM)

beautress said:


> My hobby is reading detective magazines, watching Forensics Files, True Crime, and Criminal murder whodoneit stories that are frequently resolved with forensic scientists.


That's nice.  It's also fiction.   Most murders aren't premeditated.  They are usually acts of passion or madness. 



beautress said:


> Gun antagonists will often disparage those who defend responsible gun usage with no antipathy towards or even supporting the wisdom behind the Second Amendment.


The Second Amendment was about militias, which aren't a thing anymore.  




beautress said:


> But I understand how sad it is for a family member who was shot and killed by a gun for any reason including trespassing on someone else's property while under the influence of a drug cartel profit that made him insensitive or even hostile to a property owner's get off or get shot order. It's unfortunate, but many states allow shooting when someone's home or land is invaded by a dopaminergic ruffian with a loose cannon mouth..


um, you are babbling.  

Here's the thing.  Most murders are people who know each other in a fit of anger.   It's less "Evil Cartel" and more "Who ate the last strip of bacon".


----------



## miketx (Friday at 5:25 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> That's nice.  It's also fiction.   Most murders aren't premeditated.  They are usually acts of passion or madness.
> 
> 
> The Second Amendment was about militias, which aren't a thing anymore.
> ...


Lying sack of shit. We are the militia, scum.


----------



## 2aguy (Friday at 6:41 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Your premise is flawed.  Most murder is not pre-meditated.



Yeah.....link please.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Friday at 7:16 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> What a waste of my fucking time
> Welcome to the ignore list.


----------



## themirrorthief (Friday at 8:31 PM)

JGalt said:


> Mitt Romney, the Mormon guy.
> .....
> You don't remember the big stink that outraged the Democrats when Romney ran for President?
> 
> Granted, the dog was in a cage that he strapped to the roof but from the outrage, you would have thought he bit the head off a puppy.


when people go insane they are capable of anything  so whatever is making you crazy...get help


----------



## Coyote (Friday at 8:37 PM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> Police Identify Suspect In Utah Family Murder-Suicide That Left 8 Dead
> 
> 
> The man killed seven family members before committing suicide Wednesday night.
> ...


God holds many faiths in his hands.  Nice to see a supposedly “Christian” dude using a tragedy to perpetrate religious intolerance and hate.


----------



## miketx (Friday at 8:41 PM)

themirrorthief said:


> when people go insane they are capable of anything  so whatever is making you crazy...get help


Let some more violent convicts go free...


----------



## JGalt (Friday at 9:40 PM)

miketx said:


> Let some more violent convicts go free...



Someone should do that. I hate to see all this ammo I'm sitting on go to waste.


----------



## EvilCat Breath (Friday at 10:21 PM)

I do hope this was a family of democrats so it will be no great loss.


----------



## gipper (Saturday at 6:03 AM)

Penelope said:


> I said the unvaccinated should NOT go to the hospital. And they still shouldn't.



YOU!  LMFAO!


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Saturday at 6:57 AM)

miketx said:


> Sure you will. You howler monkeys will keep crying about it while refusing to treat the mentally ill and continuing to release violent criminals from prison. Then you will continue to allow ineligible people to buy guns by failing to act when they try to buy a gun from an FFL dealer, allowing them to take possession of the of the gun instead of denying the purchase and arresting them. Now start howling monkey.


More lies and fearmongering from the right.

Conservatives continue to refuse to address the issue of gun crime and violence.


----------



## miketx (Saturday at 6:59 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> More lies and fearmongering from the right.
> 
> Conservatives continue to refuse to address the issue of gun crime and violence.


The howler monkey must have Diarrhea today! He's howling at both ends with lies.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Saturday at 7:13 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Well, crime will always happen because humans are inherently selfish.


Non sequitur.

If we’re truly committed to reducing gun crime and violence, measures and efforts can be pursued where when one finds himself in a situation of desperation, despair, or crisis, he’ll have viable other options rather than reaching for the nearest gun.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Saturday at 7:16 AM)

Baron Von Murderpaws said:


> Interesting how, when I read these kinds of articles, the people are members of some church.


Interesting yet unsurprising.


----------



## miketx (Saturday at 7:18 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Non sequitur.
> 
> If we’re truly committed to reducing gun crime and violence, measures and efforts can be pursued where when one finds himself in a situation of desperation, despair, or crisis, he’ll have viable other options rather than reaching for the nearest gun.


Guns don't commit crimes howler monkey. People do. I've never seen a bigger pos than you.


----------



## hjmick (Saturday at 7:53 AM)

EvilCat Breath said:


> I do hope this was a family of democrats so it will be no great loss.




There is a special place in Hell reserved just for you and your ilk.


----------



## EvilCat Breath (Saturday at 8:49 AM)

hjmick said:


> There is a special place in Hell reserved just for you and your ilk.


Cartel democrats are intrinsically evil.  They need a Purge.


----------



## Superbadbrutha (Saturday at 8:55 AM)

You mean this God fearin, Christian, savage, feral animal, thug killed his family.


----------



## MarathonMike (Saturday at 9:05 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


Just like all gun control zealots, you cherry pick tragic incidents that would NOT have been solved by stricter gun control. There is no gun control legislation that fixes people who are conpletely insane.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Saturday at 4:57 PM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Non sequitur.
> 
> If we’re truly committed to reducing gun crime and violence, measures and efforts can be pursued where when one finds himself in a situation of desperation, despair, or crisis, he’ll have viable other options rather than reaching for the nearest gun.



Hardly. The first important thing to consider when making laws is REALITY. You can't pretend you can get crime down to zero, especially in a free society.


----------



## 2aguy (Saturday at 5:08 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Hardly. The first important thing to consider when making laws is REALITY. You can't pretend you can get crime down to zero, especially in a free society.




No one says you can...however...you can stop destroying local police, and you can stop releasing the most violent criminals over and over again...that would be a good start.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Saturday at 5:25 PM)

MarathonMike said:


> Just like all gun control zealots, you cherry pick tragic incidents that would NOT have been solved by stricter gun control. There is no gun control legislation that fixes people who are conpletely insane.



Cherry pick? What fantasy world are you living in.
When did you see "eight members of the same family die in gun attack" in the UK?






						List of mass shootings in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




It actually happens. In the 2020s 7 people have died from two mass shootings. 
In the 2010s 17 people died from mass shootings.






						Guns in the United Kingdom — Firearms, gun law and gun control
					

Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns in United Kingdom, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development




					www.gunpolicy.org
				



Here you can see how many people die from guns in the UK, a rate of around 0.1 per 100,000 down to 0.02 per 100,000. 
In the US not only are murders 5 times higher per capita (a rate of around 5.0 to 7.5 gun murders get up to 5.9 per 100,000. That figure is 5 times higher than the UK's overall murder rate.

And again, I'm not cherry picking, I could choose from hundred and hundreds of examples. 6 year old shoots his teacher.









						6-year-old in custody after shooting teacher in Virginia, police chief says | CNN
					

A 6-year-old boy is in police custody after he shot a teacher at Richneck Elementary School in Newport News, Virginia, Friday afternoon, Police Chief Steve Drew said in a news conference.




					www.cnn.com
				




However I shouldn't even need to post something like this, because on average there are 45 murders a day in the US, 3/4ths (at least) are committed with guns. 
But what we know, what we saw after Sandy Hook, what we saw after Colorado Springs, what we saw after St Louis, what we saw after Uvalde and after many, many others, is the scrambling around from people like you who want to keep guns no matter the cost. 

"pro-lifers" who suddenly couldn't give a flying fuck about people's lives.


----------



## 2aguy (Saturday at 5:48 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Cherry pick? What fantasy world are you living in.
> When did you see "eight members of the same family die in gun attack" in the UK?
> 
> 
> ...




And British criminals have guns.....they do not choose to use those guns to commit murder as often as American criminals do.......they also don't have a political party, the democrat party, attacking the police to the point the police can't, or won't, do their jobs, to the point the police are retiring or quitting in massive numbers.   Our democrat party is also soft on actual gun criminals.....the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians lower the sentences for actual gun crimes committed by criminals, release them over and over again....

We have a political party doing everything it can to increase gun crime in the U.S. through it's policies and actions........Britain doesn't have that yet......yet.....they are working toward it.

Also, Americans use their legal guns to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings, kidnappings, and even mass public shootings.......British citizens can't legally defend themselves without great risk of being prosecuted by the government....

You have to deny the following....each year, on average, 176,000 lives saved by civilians armed with guns.....

Lives saved....based on research?  By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


*
that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—*

==============

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference  is due to sampling error.  to the  when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that  when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
 ----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence |The National Academies Press


----------



## 2aguy (Saturday at 5:54 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Cherry pick? What fantasy world are you living in.
> When did you see "eight members of the same family die in gun attack" in the UK?
> 
> 
> ...




And you mix criminals using guns with mass public shootings....why?

Because over 99% of all gun crime is committed in democrat party controlled cities, by young black males.....almost all with long criminal histories, who have been released from jail and prison over and over again by democrat party policies and laws........

Total number of actual mass public shootings in 2022

12

Total murdered...

74

12 individuals out of over 350 million people

Meanwhile, the over 19,000 gun murders in democrat party cities occurred due to democrat party policies that destroy the local police, and release violent criminals over and over again...

That increase started in 2015......from around 10,000 a year to over 19,000 by 2020......why?

Because the democrat party decided to attack local police, and release violent criminals, in over drive.

As to gun crime in the U.S......with more Americans owning and carrying guns?

Over  27 years,  from 1993  to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019 (in 2020 that number is 21.52 million)...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*
======

The gun murder and gun suicide rates in the U.S. both remain below their peak levels. There were 6.2 gun murders per 100,000 people in 2020, below the rate of 7.2 recorded in 1974. 


What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

Paper...why crime declined in the 90s

https://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf


This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

*What changed in 2015?*

The democrat party did 3 things...

1) they began a war on the police that forced officers to stop pro active police work, allowing criminals to run wild.

2) they began to release the most violent and dangerous gun offenders over and over again, not matter how many times they had been arrested for gun crimes

3) they used their brown shirts, blm/antifa to burn, loot and murder for 7 months in primarily black neighborhoods while the democrat party mayors ordered the police to stand down and not stop them......in order to hurt Trump during the election.


----------



## 2aguy (Saturday at 5:55 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Cherry pick? What fantasy world are you living in.
> When did you see "eight members of the same family die in gun attack" in the UK?
> 
> 
> ...




You now have to explain how it is that as more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime rates did not go up.....please...enlighten us...

The gun murder and gun suicide rates in the U.S. both remain below their peak levels. There were 6.2 gun murders per 100,000 people in 2020, below the rate of 7.2 recorded in 1974. 


What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.


----------



## miketx (Saturday at 6:16 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> When did you see "eight members of the same family die in gun attack" in the UK?


Lol, how could they? They don't got guns! Lol.


----------



## 2aguy (Saturday at 6:33 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Cherry pick? What fantasy world are you living in.
> When did you see "eight members of the same family die in gun attack" in the UK?
> 
> 
> ...




For one, they don't tend to have 8 children in families in Britain...but if they did....they could all be murdered the way these guys murdered their smaller families in Britain...

No gun used in this......only 3 though.....do you think he would have stopped at 3 or would he have murdered more of his family if he had had the chance?

*The Indian-origin nurse found murdered along with her two children in the UKwas strangled by her husband, her family said citing police, while accusing him of domestic violence. The family also appealed for help in raising money to bring their bodies back.*









						UK triple murder: Kerala nurse strangled by husband, says family, seeks monetary aid to bring bodies back
					

Anju Asokan, 40, and her children, a boy aged six and a girl of four, had died after being found with injuries in England’s Northampton region Thursday. Police had taken into custody her husband.




					indianexpress.com
				





Here you go....4 murdered in Britain....no gun used....does that make you feel better?  Do you think if there had been 4 more people there he would have stopped at 4?   Cause he only wanted to murder 4 people  an not 8?

*A grandmother and three family members have been stabbed to death in an attack at a house in south London.*

*Dolet Hill, a former NHS worker, has been named as one of four people found dead at the house in Southwark after neighbours heard*









						‘Lovely’ grandmother and three family members stabbed to death at home in London
					

Tributes to ‘really close’ family as police question suspect over deaths of three women and one man




					www.independent.co.uk
				





How about 8 children murdered in Australia....no gun used...you doofus......2014...

*On 19 December 2014, at 11:20 a.m., police were called to 34 Murray Street in the Cairns suburb of Manoora in Australia, where eight children were found dead.[2] The victims were aged between 18 months and 14 years.[2] The bodies, with stab wounds, were discovered by the children's 20-year-old brother.[3] Neighbours reported that fighting could be heard from the house the night before and in the early hours of the morning.[4]*






						Cairns child killings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




They got up to 6 in Australia in this attack.....

The *Osmington shooting* was a familicide in Osmington, Western Australia, Australia, on 11 May 2018, in which Peter Miles, a 61-year-old retired high school farm manager, shot dead his wife, daughter, and four grandchildren, before calling police and then committing suicide.[2] It is the worst shooting incident in Australia since the Port Arthur massacre of 1996.[3][4]

5 in this attack in Australia....why couldn't they have killed more if they wanted to?  No gun used....
The *Lin family murders* occurred in North Epping in the northwestern suburbs of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, on 18 July 2009. The victims were newsagencyproprietor Min Lin; his wife, Yun Lin; their sons, Henry and Terry; and Yun Lin's sister, Irene Lin. The family was bludgeoned to death. Min Lin's sister, Kathy, discovered the bodies. Jun "Brenda" Lin, 15, was the only surviving immediate family member after the incident; she was on a school trip in New Caledonia with Cheltenham Girls High Schoolat the time.[1]

No gun used in this murder....burned them to death......
*Hannah Clarke* (formerly *Baxter*; 8 September 1988 – 19 February 2020) was an Australian woman who was fatally burned in a petrol fire in her car, along with her three children, in a quadruple murder–suicide by her estranged husband, Rowan Baxter, on 19 February 2020 in Camp Hill, Queensland.[2][3] The murders sparked a national debate about domestic violence in Australia,[4][5][6] after reports emerged that Baxter had a history of violence and alleged misogyny[7][8][9] and had been subjected to a domestic violence order (DVO) as well as child custody orders as recently as the month of the murders.





						Murder of Hannah Clarke - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## JoeB131 (Sunday at 6:40 PM)

MarathonMike said:


> Just like all gun control zealots, you cherry pick tragic incidents that would NOT have been solved by stricter gun control. There is no gun control legislation that fixes people who are conpletely insane.



Except that Japan, Germany, the UK, Australia, France all have strict gun control laws, and they don't have incidents like this on a regular basis. 









						"No Way to Prevent This", Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## miketx (Sunday at 6:47 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Except that Japan, Germany, the UK, Australia, France all have strict gun control laws, and they don't have incidents like this on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why don't you move there then, communist?


----------



## 2aguy (Sunday at 6:47 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Except that Japan, Germany, the UK, Australia, France all have strict gun control laws, and they don't have incidents like this on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And you know that the preferred weapon of French criminlas is the fully auto matic military rifle, the Japanese  police and prosecutors have police powers you hate, and Australia cant prevent their criminals rom getting illegal guns......on a giant island......

Their murder rates are
only low because their criminals dont choose to murder each other as often as our criminals do...


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Sunday at 7:43 PM)

miketx said:


> Why don't you move there then, communist?



  What other country wants our trash?


----------



## MarathonMike (Sunday at 10:57 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Except that Japan, Germany, the UK, Australia, France all have strict gun control laws, and they don't have incidents like this on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Give me a break Joe, this dude just MURDERED HIS FAMILY AND KILLED HIMSELF. If he is that far gone mentally, he's going to do it with a machete, a baseball bat or just turn the oven on for a few hours and light a match. Why do you Leftists not acknowledge that *we have a mental illness problem very likely exacerbated by medication and drug abuse?*


----------



## Batcat (Sunday at 11:13 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


What exactly do you propose we do?


----------



## cnm (Sunday at 11:21 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Except that Japan, Germany, the UK, Australia, France all have strict gun control laws, and they don't have incidents like this on a regular basis.


Please. Citizen. You know the US is too exceptional, or too big, or too diverse, or too racially divided for lessons from any other country to be useful.

I'm surprised you even mention it.


----------



## cnm (Sunday at 11:22 PM)

MarathonMike said:


> If he is that far gone mentally, he's going to do it with a machete, a baseball bat or just turn the oven on for a few hours and light a match.


He might even have pushed them into an unfenced swimming pool.


----------



## Batcat (Sunday at 11:39 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Or if there was no gun in the house, then no one would have been killed.


I own several machetes that could take your head right off your body. They work great for clearing brush and trimming tree limbs. 

(Note: the destructive examples follow the guy showing off his moves.)


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sunday at 11:42 PM)

Batcat said:


> What exactly do you propose we do?



Change everything. 
The electoral system is broken, it leads to bad politics, impossible politics, crazy politics. 
Put in Proportional Representation, probably better to get rid of the Presidential system too. 

Then try and reduce poverty, increase fairness (by not having the rich controlling politics), and reduce easy access to guns. There are lots of ways of doing such things.


----------



## Batcat (Monday at 2:56 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Change everything.
> The electoral system is broken, it leads to bad politics, impossible politics, crazy politics.
> Put in Proportional Representation, probably better to get rid of the Presidential system too.
> 
> Then try and reduce poverty, increase fairness (by not having the rich controlling politics), and reduce easy access to guns. There are lots of ways of doing such things.


Your Promotional Representation idea seems interesting to me. 









						My take: proportional representation modification for the Electoral College
					

Raymond Baccari Anchor Staff Writer Last week, I wrote an article in which I explained what the Electoral College is. From how it works, proposed alternatives/modifications and common terminology to arguments heard in discussions about it. In discussions about the Electoral College, one of the...




					www.anchorweb.org
				




Dialing for dollars is currently ruining our government today. 









						Congress Spends More Time Dialing for Dollars Than on Legislative Work - U.S. Term Limits
					

Congress spends more time on re-election fundraising than on the legislative duties they were hired to do. Party bosses expect as many as 6 hours daily.




					www.termlimits.com
				




Plus we have Big Pharma and the Military Industrial Complex asking for Big Money. 









						Big Pharma spending $263M to prevent Congress from lowering drug prices
					

The pharmaceutical industry has employed three lobbyists for every member of Congress this year.




					news.yahoo.com
				












						Broken Budget System Wastes Taxpayer Dollars, Hurts Military | U.S. Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota
					

The Official U.S. Senate website of Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota



					www.rounds.senate.gov
				




People who have concealed weapons permits commit the fewest number of crimes of any group of people in the nation. Perhaps anyone who wants to own a gun should qualify to carry one concealed. 

Report: Concealed Carry Permit Holders Are The Most Law-Abiding People In The Country | The Daily Wire


----------



## frigidweirdo (Monday at 4:19 AM)

Batcat said:


> Your Promotional Representation idea seems interesting to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, if you look at Germany you can see the difference between PR and FPTP as they vote both at the same time. Different results, same people. 

Rights are a problem. Why? Because there is only a Bill of Rights. Not a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities. 
HOWEVER, sometimes law abiding gun owners provide guns for criminals when they get stolen. This is also a problem that is difficult to solve.


----------



## JoeB131 (Monday at 5:36 AM)

MarathonMike said:


> Give me a break Joe, this dude just MURDERED HIS FAMILY AND KILLED HIMSELF. If he is that far gone mentally, he's going to do it with a machete, a baseball bat or just turn the oven on for a few hours and light a match. Why do you Leftists not acknowledge that *we have a mental illness problem very likely exacerbated by medication and drug abuse?*


YOu realize that all of those methods would have taken a lot more effort and would have given a family member enough time to call the police or run to a neighbor, right? 

A gun made it easier for him to annihilate his family.


We don't have a higher rate of drug use or mental illness than any other advanced country.  

The difference is those other countries make it easy to get treatment and hard to get guns. 
We make it easy to get guns and hard to get treatment. 



2aguy said:


> And you know that the preferred weapon of French criminlas is the fully auto matic military rifle, the Japanese police and prosecutors have police powers you hate, and Australia cant prevent their criminals rom getting illegal guns......on a giant island......



Yes, the NRA spooge is strong in this one.   We had 19,498 gun homicides in 2020.

Australia had 34
The United Kingdom had 32
France had 92
Japan had 4

You scream about "criminals" all day (code for minorities, of course), but the reality is, most gun deaths are domestic violence, made easier by easy access to guns.



2aguy said:


> Their murder rates are
> only low because their criminals dont choose to murder each other as often as our criminals do...


So, um, the family of 8 Mormons were criminals murdering each other?  I mean, shit, I don't like Mormons but even I wouldn't go that far.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Monday at 5:40 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Hardly. The first important thing to consider when making laws is REALITY. You can't pretend you can get crime down to zero, especially in a free society.


And another non sequitur.

No reference is being made to ‘reducing crime’ – indeed, no reference is being made about ‘new laws.’

The REALITY is that there aren’t going to be new laws placing more limits and restrictions on accessing firearms, nor should there be.

The thread topic and the tragic event it explores isn’t even about crime – it’s about an American society comprehensively incapable of accommodating and assisting those suffering from personal crisis or mental distress, where those in crisis believe the only resolution is to reach for a gun.

That needs to change, no matter how difficult or seemingly impossible.


----------



## JoeB131 (Monday at 5:42 AM)

cnm said:


> Please. Citizen. You know the US is too exceptional, or too big, or too diverse, or too racially divided for lessons from any other country to be useful.
> 
> I'm surprised you even mention it.



Bullshit. 
We aren't exceptional. 
We aren't that big. Japan has 133 million people, Germany 80 million. 
The UK is very diverse. 

The only major difference is that we have a bizarre militia amendment that has been interpreted as an unlimited right to guns. 




Batcat said:


> I own several machetes that could take your head right off your body. They work great for clearing brush and trimming tree limbs.


Okay, so Mormon Boy takes his mother in law's head off.  By that time, the kids have run off to the neighbors and his wife has called the cops.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Monday at 6:11 AM)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> And another non sequitur.
> 
> No reference is being made to ‘reducing crime’ – indeed, no reference is being made about ‘new laws.’
> 
> ...



Well, you're allowed to be wrong.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Monday at 6:20 AM)

frigidweirdo said:


> Utah shooting: Eight family members found shot dead in home
> 
> 
> Police were conducting a welfare check when they found the bodies.
> ...


/——/ Those millions of aborted babies are safe too, right?


----------



## 2aguy (Monday at 11:14 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> YOu realize that all of those methods would have taken a lot more effort and would have given a family member enough time to call the police or run to a neighbor, right?
> 
> A gun made it easier for him to annihilate his family.
> 
> ...




The gun murders in this country average around 10,000 a year......and the victims are primarily criminals murdered by other criminals engaged in crime and the criminal life.

The increase to 19,000, and the over all elevated rate of murder in this country is a direct result of the policies of the democrat party......in 2015, the democrat party began it's war on the police, and democrat party politicians, judges and prosecutors decided to start releasing violent criminals back onto the streets as some sort of "justice."  

The democrat party creates the problem, pulls back the police, then they use that as a reason to take guns away from people who don't use guns for crime...


----------



## JoeB131 (Monday at 4:24 PM)

2aguy said:


> The gun murders in this country average around 10,000 a year......and the victims are primarily criminals murdered by other criminals engaged in crime and the criminal life.



Actually, it's been over 14,000 for the last five years.   the last time it was BELOW 10K was 1998.  Clearly, you don't understand what "average" means.  

But only in Ammosexual Bizarro world do you look at the rest of the world have only 2 digit numbers in gun murders, and you think that five digit numbers are okay in the US if they are low enough.  



2aguy said:


> The increase to 19,000, and the over all elevated rate of murder in this country is a direct result of the policies of the democrat party......in 2015, the democrat party began it's war on the police, and democrat party politicians, judges and prosecutors decided to start releasing violent criminals back onto the streets as some sort of "justice."



Actually, the elevated rate in 2020 was because when you stick angry anxious people in the same house for months on end, and there's a gun lying around, you are going to have more murders. 

The reason why you had gun murders going up after 2010 is that is when SCOTUS struck down the few sensible gun laws that the cities did have in place.  



2aguy said:


> The democrat party creates the problem, pulls back the police, then they use that as a reason to take guns away from people who don't use guns for crime...



Except gun crime isn't the problem, is it?  This  Mormon Insurance Salesman wasn't out committing Crimes until he realized that he'd be disgraced in his community if his wife dumped him...


----------



## JoeB131 (Monday at 4:24 PM)

Cellblock2429 said:


> Those millions of aborted babies are safe too, right?


Fetuses aren't babies.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Monday at 5:38 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Fetuses aren't babies.


/——-/ As a reminder, Hitler had to dehumanize Jews. Gypsies, and the crippled before he slaughtered them.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Monday at 6:48 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Fetuses aren't babies.



  And babies aren't adolescents.

  And adolescents aren't adults.

  So what?

  It's the same person, the same organism, the same form of life, at every age, at every stage of growth and development and aging.




Cellblock2429 said:


> /——-/ As a reminder, Hitler had to dehumanize Jews. Gypsies, and the crippled before he slaughtered them.



  As we have seen, throughout history, almost every time one demographic group, in power seeks to commit mass murder, genocide, or other major human rights violations, against another.


----------



## 2aguy (Monday at 7:01 PM)

cnm said:


> Please. Citizen. You know the US is too exceptional, or too big, or too diverse, or too racially divided for lessons from any other country to be useful.
> 
> I'm surprised you even mention it.



We learned the lesson…you didn’t….

Europe….15 million innocent men, women, and children after guns were confiscated.  This happened in just 6 years…….

25 million murdered in Russia…

70 million murdered in China…..………..

You anti- gun fanatics didn’t learn the lessons from those murders….

The entire 246 year history of gun murder in the U.S. ……2,460,000, and the vast majority of the victims are criminals….not innocent people…..

That you anti gun fanatics can’t see that lesson makes you fools…..,


----------



## 2aguy (Monday at 7:03 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, it's been over 14,000 for the last five years.   the last time it was BELOW 10K was 1998.  Clearly, you don't understand what "average" means.
> 
> But only in Ammosexual Bizarro world do you look at the rest of the world have only 2 digit numbers in gun murders, and you think that five digit numbers are okay in the US if they are low enough.
> 
> ...



Yeah, you dipshit….in 2015 the democrats started their war against the police and started turning loose every violent criminal they could find………

This is the Ferguson Effect……..a lie about a violent teen and the democrats used it to destroy local police, and release violent criminals…


----------



## JoeB131 (Tuesday at 5:42 AM)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——-/ As a reminder, Hitler had to dehumanize Jews. Gypsies, and the crippled before he slaughtered them.



Um, no, 2000 years of Christian Culture did that. 

The fact you still use the word "Gypsies" to describe the Roma people should tell you that.  Not to mention the word "Cripples" to describe the disabled. 

This has nothing to do with a woman deciding she doesn't want to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, which is her right because it's her body. 



Bob Blaylock said:


> And babies aren't adolescents.
> 
> And adolescents aren't adults.
> 
> ...



Except a fetus is the size of a kidney bean when most abortions are performed and not viable outside of the woman it is inside.  You keep skipping over that part. 



Bob Blaylock said:


> As we have seen, throughout history, almost every time one demographic group, in power seeks to commit mass murder, genocide, or other major human rights violations, against another.



Right... because clearly women are oppressing the fetuses inside of them by not wanting them. 
Women have been having abortions all throughout history.  Most of history, no one thought anything about it.  In fact, laws against abortion are a relatively recent thing, like late 19th century.   It took another century for people to realized such laws aren't workable, and another 50 years to forget what we learned.



2aguy said:


> You anti- gun fanatics didn’t learn the lessons from those murders….
> 
> The entire 246 year history of gun murder in the U.S. ……2,460,000, and the vast majority of the victims are criminals….not innocent people…..



Not even sure where you get those crazy numbers... If you count in the Civil War and the genocide of Native Americans, you get a lot more than 2.4 million. 



2aguy said:


> Yeah, you dipshit….in 2015 the democrats started their war against the police and started turning loose every violent criminal they could find………
> 
> This is the Ferguson Effect……..a lie about a violent teen and the democrats used it to destroy local police, and release violent criminals…


The War on Police where we've given them more money every year?
I hope someone makes war on me like that.
"Hey, Joe, we don't like the way you are doing your job, have some more money!"


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Tuesday at 5:55 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Um, no, 2000 years of Christian Culture did that.
> 
> The fact you still use the word "Gypsies" to describe the Roma people should tell you that.  Not to mention the word "Cripples" to describe the disabled.
> 
> ...


/——/ Oh my, you use the political correct terms so not to offend dead people. Well, that’s what the world called them in 1938. Get a freaking life. BTW I stopped reading your post after the second paragraph. It was that pathetic.


----------



## JoeB131 (Tuesday at 6:01 AM)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——/ Oh my, you use the political correct terms so not to offend dead people. Well, that’s what the world called them in 1938. Get a freaking life. BTW I stopped reading your post after the second paragraph. It was that pathetic.



See, you did it again. People demand to be treated with respect by not being called "Cripples" or "Gypsies" or "Colored", and you get all offended by political correctness... 
When those terms are dehumanizing.  

So Hitler didn't "dehumanize" Jews, the disabled, or the Roma people... centuries of Christian culture did. Hitler just straight up killed them.  

Again, nothing to do with the fact that women have been deciding to end unwanted pregnancies all through history.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Tuesday at 6:30 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> See, you did it again. People demand to be treated with respect by not being called "Cripples" or "Gypsies" or "Colored", and you get all offended by political correctness...
> When those terms are dehumanizing.
> 
> So Hitler didn't "dehumanize" Jews, the disabled, or the Roma people... centuries of Christian culture did. Hitler just straight up killed them.
> ...


/----/ *"See, you did it again."*
1. YOU ???? My personal pronouns are YO, Dude, and Bro. 
2. gypsy
verb
gyp·sy ˈjip-sē 
gypsied; gypsying; gypsies
intransitive verb: to travel or roam from place to place.
3. 
cripple
verb
crippled; crippling ˈkri-p(ə-)liŋ 
transitive verb:1,  to deprive of the use of a limb and especially a leg
the accident left him crippled
2: to deprive of capability for service or of strength, efficiency, or wholeness an economy crippled by inflation


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Tuesday at 6:31 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Except a fetus is the size of a kidney bean when most abortions are performed and not viable outside of the woman it is inside. You keep skipping over that part.



  And a toddler is the size of a moderate dog, and not really viable, either.  Put him out on the street to fend for himself, with no care from adults, and he'll probably die.

  Size does not define humanity.  Nor does the need for care and assistance from other humans.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Tuesday at 6:41 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> See, you did it again. People demand to be treated with respect by not being called "Cripples" or "Gypsies" or "Colored", and you get all offended by political correctness...
> When those terms are dehumanizing.
> 
> So Hitler didn't "dehumanize" Jews, the disabled, or the Roma people... centuries of Christian culture did. Hitler just straight up killed them.
> ...


/----/ This is me mocking you.


----------



## 2aguy (Tuesday at 11:25 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Um, no, 2000 years of Christian Culture did that.
> 
> The fact you still use the word "Gypsies" to describe the Roma people should tell you that.  Not to mention the word "Cripples" to describe the disabled.
> 
> ...




The Civil War?   The war started by the democrat party, in order to keep their slaves?  A political party you vote for today?  The slave rapist party as you describe them?

And the Indians were largely killed off before our country was founded...by European diseases..........and the mass murder I am talking about didn't happen in "olden times," it happened after 1917....in modern nation states........after they took guns away from their intended victims.


----------



## 2aguy (Tuesday at 11:26 AM)

Bob Blaylock said:


> And a toddler is the size of a moderate dog, and not really viable, either.  Put him out on the street to fend for himself, with no care from adults, and he'll probably die.
> 
> Size does not define humanity.  Nor does the need for care and assistance from other humans.





> Size does not define humanity.



Joe and his socialist buddies know this.....which makes the end game of their policies easier for them....and why we really, really, need to keep our guns....


----------



## JohnA (Tuesday at 12:56 PM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> Police Identify Suspect In Utah Family Murder-Suicide That Left 8 Dead
> 
> 
> The man killed seven family members before committing suicide Wednesday night.
> ...


i can think of one HITLER


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Tuesday at 2:51 PM)

JGalt said:


> Mitt Romney, the Mormon guy.
> 
> You don't remember the big stink that outraged the Democrats when Romney ran for President?
> 
> Granted, the dog was in a cage that he strapped to the roof but from the outrage, you would have thought he bit the head off a puppy.


he strapped a dog to the top of his car?

LOL

couldn't one his likely numerous family members have driven a car with the dog in the back seat?


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Tuesday at 2:56 PM)

JGalt said:


> Someone should do that. I hate to see all this ammo I'm sitting on go to waste.


LOL

Go to the border.. you'll run out of ammo quickly (kidding.. libs, don't accuse me of... you know wanting to kill folks who are already out of the womb)


----------



## notmyfault2020 (Tuesday at 2:57 PM)

JohnA said:


> i can think of one HITLER


Please.

he was baptized Catholic as a baby. After that, he (with or w/o parents) never darkened the doorway of any church, Catholic or otherwise.


----------



## JoeB131 (Tuesday at 7:42 PM)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/ *"See, you did it again."*
> 1. YOU ???? My personal pronouns are YO, Dude, and Bro.
> 2. gypsy
> verb
> ...



Wow, guy, you stepped in it big time... didn't you?  



Cellblock2429 said:


> This is me mocking you.



Really, I thought you were mocking Roma people and the disabled...  but never mind.


----------



## JoeB131 (Tuesday at 7:46 PM)

2aguy said:


> The Civil War? The war started by the democrat party, in order to keep their slaves? A political party you vote for today? The slave rapist party as you describe them?
> 
> And the Indians were largely killed off before our country was founded...by European diseases..........and the mass murder I am talking about didn't happen in "olden times," it happened after 1917....in modern nation states........after they took guns away from their intended victims.



Uh, no, the civil war started by Southern CONSERVATIVES so a few rich white people could keep owning slaves, by getting stupid poor white people to catch bullets for them. 

No, the First Nations were systematically genocided by the United States... It's how we went from them having all the land west of the Appalachians to just a few squares of reservations.  



Bob Blaylock said:


> And a toddler is the size of a moderate dog, and not really viable, either. Put him out on the street to fend for himself, with no care from adults, and he'll probably die.


Okay, but no one is going to force you to take care of that toddler.   You want to force a woman to carry a fetus to term, that's the thing.  



Bob Blaylock said:


> Size does not define humanity. Nor does the need for care and assistance from other humans.


Um,yeah, about that. I say that every Church that supports ending abortion should be required to support all the unwanted kids until they are 18.


----------



## 2aguy (Tuesday at 7:49 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Uh, no, the civil war started by Southern CONSERVATIVES so a few rich white people could keep owning slaves, by getting stupid poor white people to catch bullets for them.
> 
> No, the First Nations were systematically genocided by the United States... It's how we went from them having all the land west of the Appalachians to just a few squares of reservations.
> 
> ...




They were all democrats you doofus.

The indians lost their majority of people before the country was foundedndue to European diseases they didnt have immunity from


----------



## 2aguy (Tuesday at 7:51 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Uh, no, the civil war started by Southern CONSERVATIVES so a few rich white people could keep owning slaves, by getting stupid poor white people to catch bullets for them.
> 
> No, the First Nations were systematically genocided by the United States... It's how we went from them having all the land west of the Appalachians to just a few squares of reservations.
> 
> ...



We could simply adopt them out....there are about 39 couples waiting for each baby, you moron


----------



## JoeB131 (Tuesday at 7:59 PM)

2aguy said:


> They were all democrats you doofus.


No, they were conservatives. Party labels were kind of meaningless, as all the political parties before the civil war had anti-and pro-slavery factions.  




2aguy said:


> The indians lost their majority of people before the country was foundedndue to European diseases they didnt have immunity from


And then the US government went in and genocided the rest in 100 years of Indian Wars.... 
When Hitler came up with the idea of Concentration Camps, he took inspiration from Native American Reservations.  



2aguy said:


> We could simply adopt them out....there are about 39 couples waiting for each baby, you moron


Waiting for white babies with no health problems.   Those won't be the ones available when abortion is banned. White women will still be able to drive up to free states and get abortions....


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Tuesday at 8:46 PM)

notmyfault2020 said:


> do you think all mormons are Godless?
> I know their religion is but some individuals are likely sincere?



  You don't know solid digestive waste about our religion, if you think we're Godless.


----------



## 2aguy (Yesterday at 5:17 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> No, they were conservatives. Party labels were kind of meaningless, as all the political parties before the civil war had anti-and pro-slavery factions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No...the distinguishing feature was being a democrat....religious conservatives were the abolishionists.......and Republicans...the southerners were democrats.....

He got the idea for concentration camps from the British, you idiot....

*Hitler and Goebbels were the first relativizers of the Holocaust, the first purveyors of false equivalence. “Concentration camps were not invented in Germany,” Hitler said in 1941. “It is the English who are their inventors, using this institution to gradually break the backs of other nations.” The British had operated camps in South Africa, the Nazis pointed out.*









						How American Racism Influenced Hitler
					

How did a civilized society come to embrace Hitler’s extreme ideas? In 2018, Alex Ross wrote about the scholars mapping the international precursors of Nazism.




					www.newyorker.com


----------



## JoeB131 (Yesterday at 5:25 AM)

MarathonMike said:


> Just like all gun control zealots, you cherry pick tragic incidents that would NOT have been solved by stricter gun control. There is no gun control legislation that fixes people who are conpletely insane.



Sure there is.   There are red flag laws.   You know your ex is likely to do something crazy, you tell the cops and they collect his guns.  

Oh, wait, who has gone to court to fight red flag laws?  The NRA and the Ammosexuals.


----------



## JoeB131 (Yesterday at 5:35 AM)

2aguy said:


> No one says you can...however...you can stop destroying local police, and you can stop releasing the most violent criminals over and over again...that would be a good start.



Police spending has gone up every year.. funny you didn't mention that.  I'm not sure how you can destroy an institution by giving it more money. 

On the other hand, we've SLASHED programs for mental health and addiction treatment, which is part of the reason Crime went up.  



2aguy said:


> No...the distinguishing feature was being a democrat....religious conservatives were the abolishionists.......and Republicans...the southerners were democrats.....
> 
> He got the idea for concentration camps from the British, you idiot....



Nope.  In fact, Slave Owners - Conservative Christians - quoted the bible when advocating slavery's continuation. 

Conservatives want to keep the status quo.  Slavery was the status quo.  









						How White Confederates Used The Bible To Justify Slavery
					

How White Confederates Used The Bible To Justify Slavery




					www.huffpost.com
				




I know you guys get confused, as "Conservative" has come to mean a slavish devotion to Donald Trump. 




2aguy said:


> Hitler and Goebbels were the first relativizers of the Holocaust, the first purveyors of false equivalence. “Concentration camps were not invented in Germany,” Hitler said in 1941. “It is the English who are their inventors, using this institution to gradually break the backs of other nations.” The British had operated camps in South Africa, the Nazis pointed out.











						What the Nazis Learned From America’s Indian Removal
					

“The Volga must be our Mississippi,” Hitler declared in his pursuit of Lebensraum and liquidation.



					www.thedailybeast.com
				




Remember, the original Nazi goal was not to exterminate the Jews, just to remove them from German society.   Just like the Americans removed indigenous people.   Genocide came later.  Just like it did for Indigenous people.


----------



## JoeB131 (Yesterday at 5:36 AM)

Bob Blaylock said:


> You don't know solid digestive waste about our religion, if you think we're Godless.


Naw, you just believe in a pedophile con man was talking to God.. See, he claimed to have read from magic golden plates that no one else ever saw!  They're at the bottom of this hat!


----------



## Hollie (Yesterday at 6:55 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Police spending has gone up every year.. funny you didn't mention that.  I'm not sure how you can destroy an institution by giving it more money.
> 
> On the other hand, we've SLASHED programs for mental health and addiction treatment, which is part of the reason Crime went up.
> 
> ...


Huffington post?

Really?


----------



## Hollie (Yesterday at 7:01 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Police spending has gone up every year.. funny you didn't mention that.  I'm not sure how you can destroy an institution by giving it more money.
> 
> On the other hand, we've SLASHED programs for mental health and addiction treatment, which is part of the reason Crime went up.
> 
> ...


Um, police funding has gone up every year? 

Um, no. 

Um, like usual, you leftisexuals are fact-challenged.

Um, just a small sample.









						These US cities defunded police: 'We're transferring money to the community'
					

More than 20 major cities have reduced police budgets in some form, and activists are fighting to ensure that is only the start




					www.google.com


----------



## 2aguy (Yesterday at 9:12 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Police spending has gone up every year.. funny you didn't mention that.  I'm not sure how you can destroy an institution by giving it more money.
> 
> On the other hand, we've SLASHED programs for mental health and addiction treatment, which is part of the reason Crime went up.
> 
> ...



Democrats owned the slaves....and started the war...conservative, christian republicans started the abolitionist movememt to end slavery and fought the democrata to free the black slaves.


----------



## MarathonMike (Yesterday at 12:50 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Sure there is.   There are red flag laws.   You know your ex is likely to do something crazy, you tell the cops and they collect his guns.
> 
> Oh, wait, who has gone to court to fight red flag laws?  The NRA and the Ammosexuals.


Red flag laws are not gun control laws. They are laws that flag potentially dangerous individuals. You are creating another deflection. FAIL


----------



## themirrorthief (Yesterday at 1:01 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> No, they were conservatives. Party labels were kind of meaningless, as all the political parties before the civil war had anti-and pro-slavery factions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


abortion is  just a plan by racist democrats to limit the negro population which is considered out of control


----------



## themirrorthief (Yesterday at 1:03 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Police spending has gone up every year.. funny you didn't mention that.  I'm not sure how you can destroy an institution by giving it more money.
> 
> On the other hand, we've SLASHED programs for mental health and addiction treatment, which is part of the reason Crime went up.
> 
> ...


native americans happily went about murdering and roasting alive other native americans for centuries....they all hated each other and torture of captives was a happy pastime on warm summer nights


----------



## themirrorthief (Yesterday at 1:05 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Police spending has gone up every year.. funny you didn't mention that.  I'm not sure how you can destroy an institution by giving it more money.
> 
> On the other hand, we've SLASHED programs for mental health and addiction treatment, which is part of the reason Crime went up.
> 
> ...


remember slavery started in the north and they got rid of it after all those Irish, Jewish, and Italians came over and could be worked to death for a nickel an hour.....slaves were expensive ...you had to house and feed them...yankees decided they were just to costly


----------



## themirrorthief (Yesterday at 1:07 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Police spending has gone up every year.. funny you didn't mention that.  I'm not sure how you can destroy an institution by giving it more money.
> 
> On the other hand, we've SLASHED programs for mental health and addiction treatment, which is part of the reason Crime went up.
> 
> ...


everyone in tennessee is part native ameican....we have gone NOWHERE idiot     everyone except for the million or so that have moved here from liberal california and New York...they are just happy to live somewhere they arent taxed to death


----------



## JoeB131 (Yesterday at 4:44 PM)

Hollie said:


> Um, police funding has gone up every year?
> 
> Um, no.
> 
> ...



Overall national spending went up.  Most of the cities that cut back in 2020 (mostly due to a lack of revenues) bounced them right back up in 2021.  



2aguy said:


> Democrats owned the slaves....and started the war...conservative, christian republicans started the abolitionist movememt to end slavery and fought the democrata to free the black slaves.


Uh, the Christians who opposed Slavery were not "conservative".  It in fact was a pretty PROGRESSIVE opinion, the exact opposite of "Conservative". 
You clearly don't know what conservative means...  



MarathonMike said:


> Red flag laws are not gun control laws. They are laws that flag potentially dangerous individuals. You are creating another deflection. FAIL


Someone tell the NRA...









						PolitiFact - National Rifle Association off target on red flag law process
					

In the race for governor, a radio ad from the National Rifle Association offers a laundry list of complaints against Dem




					www.politifact.com
				






themirrorthief said:


> abortion is just a plan by racist democrats to limit the negro population which is considered out of control


Um, not really. If anything, abortion has caused the white birth rate to decline. 



themirrorthief said:


> native americans happily went about murdering and roasting alive other native americans for centuries....they all hated each other and torture of captives was a happy pastime on warm summer nights


Um, okay.  Yes, so we can agree that roasting other people alive is barbaric... right. 





Oh, shit, those are white Europeans burning witches and heretics...


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## JoeB131 (Yesterday at 4:51 PM)

themirrorthief said:


> remember slavery started in the north and they got rid of it after all those Irish, Jewish, and Italians came over and could be worked to death for a nickel an hour.....slaves were expensive ...you had to house and feed them...yankees decided they were just to costly



Wow, that's not true, either.   While working conditions were horrible for immigrant workers, they 

1) Still came here voluntarily, just like they do today.
2) You could not whip, rape, or maim immigrants. 
3) You could not sell off their family members for a quick pocket

Unlike a slave, an immigrant could ALWAYS hope that his child's life would be better.  



themirrorthief said:


> everyone in tennessee is part native ameican....we have gone NOWHERE idiot everyone except for the million or so that have moved here from liberal california and New York...they are just happy to live somewhere they arent taxed to death



Really? The Census Bureau disagrees with you. 






						Demographics of Tennessee - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Missourian (Yesterday at 5:22 PM)

frigidweirdo said:


> the dead can't be killed, therefore they're safe.​



In that case...you'll get my gun when you pry it from my cold, safe hand...

...but I'll happily give you all the bullets while I'm still  in danger.


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## Hollie (Yesterday at 5:34 PM)

JoeB131 said:


> Overall national spending went up.  Most of the cities that cut back in 2020 (mostly due to a lack of revenues) bounced them right back up in 2021.
> 
> 
> Uh, the Christians who opposed Slavery were not "conservative".  It in fact was a pretty PROGRESSIVE opinion, the exact opposite of "Conservative".
> ...



Spending in Democrat Hell holes went down. Crime went up. Strange that. 

Um, the Democrat party; the Party of Slavery, went to war trying to save their Party of Slavery.


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## JoeB131 (Yesterday at 6:02 PM)

Hollie said:


> Spending in Democrat Hell holes went down. Crime went up. Strange that.



Crime went up all over the country because people lost their jobs and found themselves locked in homes with people they didn't really like that much.


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## Hollie (Today at 4:54 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Crime went up all over the country because people lost their jobs and found themselves locked in homes with people they didn't really like that much.


Crime showed dramatic increases in Democrat run Hell holes due to an array of criminal enabling policies.


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## JoeB131 (Today at 5:11 AM)

Hollie said:


> Crime showed dramatic increases in Democrat run Hell holes due to an array of criminal enabling policies.


Nope, it showed increases because Trump wrecked the economy and screwed up Covid and antagonized minorities unnecessarily.


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## Hollie (Today at 5:14 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Nope, it showed increases because Trump wrecked the economy and screwed up Covid and antagonized minorities unnecessarily.


Yep. The data shows Democrat run cities with Democrat policies if protecting criminals had huge increases in crime rates. 

Trump is not president. You didn't know that?


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## JoeB131 (Today at 5:22 AM)

Hollie said:


> Yep. The data shows Democrat run cities with Democrat policies if protecting criminals had huge increases in crime rates.
> 
> Trump is not president. You didn't know that?


And Crime has been dropping since he left... it's a good thing.


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## Hollie (Today at 5:40 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> And Crime has been dropping since he left... it's a good thing.


Crime has been increasing under Democrat policies of protecting criminals.

That's a good thing for people and businesses who are left to be victims of Democrat's criminal-enabling policies.

Such is the disease of leftism.


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## JoeB131 (Today at 5:43 AM)

Hollie said:


> Crime has been increasing under Democrat policies of protecting criminals.
> 
> That's a good thing for people and businesses who are left to be victims of Democrat crimibal-enabling policies.
> 
> Such is the disease of leftism.



Actually, crime is still at historic lows compared to the 1990's.  




It spiked under Trump of course, because Trump fucked up...well everything.


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## Hollie (Today at 5:45 AM)

Actually, crime is up in Democrat run cities. 










						27 of Top 30 Crime-Ridden Cities Run by Democrats
					

A new report shows that the Democrat-run cities and counties are responsible for rising crime rates in Republican states.




					www.dailysignal.com
				




A new report shows that Democrat policies in cities and counties are responsible for rising crime rates in “their otherwise red states.”


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## Hollie (Today at 5:47 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, crime is still at historic lows compared to the 1990's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You didn't notice your graph actually shows crime decreasing under Trump. 

Good gawd you're ignorant.


----------



## JoeB131 (Today at 5:48 AM)

Hollie said:


> A new report shows that Democrat policies in cities and counties are responsible for rising crime rates in “their otherwise red states.”



Okay, you can keep saying that, but why is it 9 of the top 10 states in violent crime are red states? 

You would think that blue states would be higher, given they have blue governors and mayors.


----------



## JoeB131 (Today at 5:48 AM)

Hollie said:


> You didn't notice your graph actually shows crime decreasing under Trump.
> 
> Good gawd you're ignorant.



No, it went up.


----------



## Hollie (Today at 5:50 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> No, it went up.


Not according to your graph. 

That's the danger you face when mindlessly cutting and pasting.


----------



## Hollie (Today at 5:52 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> No, it went up.



Your graph contradicts your statement. 

Is there still time to edit your post with something different?


----------



## JoeB131 (Today at 5:54 AM)

Hollie said:


> Your graph contradicts your statement.
> 
> Is there still time to edit your post with something different?



Did you actually read the graph? 

Crime was at 402.4 per thousand in 2020.  That was the highest it had been since 2010, when we were in the throws of the Great Recession.

Why do you Trump cultists keep pretending that 2020 didn't happen?


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## Hollie (Today at 6:34 AM)

JoeB131 said:


> Did you actually read the graph?
> Crime was at 402.4 per thousand in 2020. That was the highest it had been since 2010, when we were in the throws of the Great Recession.
> 
> Why do you Trump cultists keep pretending that 2020 didn't happen?



Your TDS is funny.

Why do Biden groupies believe Trump is still president?









						Scalise And Fitzgerald: Soft-On-Crime Democrats Are Ruining Our Communities
					

WASHINGTON, D.C. — Today, House Republican Whip Steve Scalise (R-La.) and Congressman Scott Fitzgerald (R-Wis.) co-authored an op-ed for FoxNews.com highlighting how Democrats’ soft-on-crime policies and support for the radical “Defund the Police” movement have weakened police departments and...




					scalise.house.gov


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