# Did Jefferson deserve to be on Mt Rushmore?



## ginscpy

Washington and Lincoln are a given.

TDR iffy.

My issue is with Jefferson.

Not a difference -maker.


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## hjmick

Yep. Jefferson, not a difference maker...

<sarcasm off>


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## ginscpy

Why??

Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.

What did Jefferson do ??


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## Truthseeker420

ginscpy said:


> why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of america - lincoln preserved the union, tdr made america relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did jefferson do ??



tdr?


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## ginscpy

tdr - Teddy Roosevelt - walk softly and carry a big stick

So what did Jefferson do that was so great......................


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## hjmick




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## Truthseeker420

ginscpy said:


> tdr - Teddy Roosevelt - walk softly and carry a big stick
> 
> So what did Jefferson do that was so great......................



got it thx


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## ginscpy

Jefferson was a slaveholder


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## MuadDib

Nobody should be on Mount Rushmore. The deification of politicians in a nation like ours is a dangerous practice.


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## hjmick

ginscpy said:


> Jefferson was a slaveholder



It was the way of the times. So was George Washington.


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## hortysir

Which U.S. Presidents Owned Slaves?


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## Moonglow

hard to judge someone who lived in their society and social norms and morals several hundred years ago on the morals of today.


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## Katzndogz

Jefferson and Washingon both held slaves because there was no alternative at the time.  They were both ablitionists too and both gave all of their slaves their freedom when they died.


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## Sunni Man

ginscpy said:


> Jefferson was a slaveholder


So was Washington you nitwit.


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## alan1

ginscpy said:


> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.



Mr Lincoln trampled all over states rights in direct violation of the constitution.
He is the one you should be challenging.
I do not now, nor have I ever supported slavery.
Mr Lincoln created an atmosphere of "an all powerful federal government" that is allowed to supersede states rights by force.


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## syrenn

ginscpy said:


> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.





So long as they don't add any more faces to the monument....


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## Katzndogz

This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.


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## OohPooPahDoo

ginscpy said:


> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.



Isn't Mt Rushmore in the Louisiana Purchase?

Fuck you are dumb.


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## Dot Com

he was a Virginian.  'nuff said


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## hjmick

Katzndogz said:


> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.



Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...


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## Katzndogz

hjmick said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...
Click to expand...


Under Jefferson's direction and control with substantial influence by James Madison.   Madison should be there instead of FDR.


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## alan1

Katzndogz said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under Jefferson's direction and control with substantial influence by James Madison.   Madison should be there instead of FDR.
Click to expand...


Instead of Lincoln.


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## Sunni Man

syrenn said:


> So long as they don't add any more faces to the monument...


Just give it a few years and there will be a huge push to add Obama to the pantheon of presidents.


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## hjmick

Katzndogz said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under Jefferson's direction and control with substantial influence by James Madison.   Madison should be there instead of FDR.
Click to expand...


As much as he could from Paris...

Madison is much more responsible for the Constitution than Jefferson, in my opinion.


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## Katzndogz

Sunni Man said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So long as they don't add any more faces to the monument...
> 
> 
> 
> Just give it a few years and there will be a huge push to add Obama to the pantheon of presidents.
Click to expand...


Cornel West: Obama 'Obsessed With Being On Mount Rushmore'
Cornel West criticized President Barack Obama, saying he's "obsessed with being on Mount Rushmore" and is focusing too much on his "legacy."

I think at this point hes obsessed with being on Mount Rushmore, he wants to be a great figure in the pantheon of American presidents,


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## Againsheila

ginscpy said:


> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.



Jefferson wrote the declaration of Independence, he's one of our founding fathers?  What did Lincoln do?  Besides force the south to stay with the union, completely against the declaration of Independence...oh, now I get it....


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## Sunni Man

Katzndogz said:


> I think at this point hes obsessed with being on Mount Rushmore, he wants to be a great figure in the pantheon of American presidents,


Any non African American (code for white) who opposes Obama being included on Mt. Rushmore will be labeled a racist and a bigot.


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## Dot Com




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## syrenn

Katzndogz said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So long as they don't add any more faces to the monument...
> 
> 
> 
> Just give it a few years and there will be a huge push to add Obama to the pantheon of presidents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cornel West: Obama 'Obsessed With Being On Mount Rushmore'
> Cornel West criticized President Barack Obama, saying he's "obsessed with being on Mount Rushmore" and is focusing too much on his "legacy."
> 
> I think at this point hes obsessed with being on Mount Rushmore, he wants to be a great figure in the pantheon of American presidents,
Click to expand...



I agree.... he is very much about his "legacy"


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## paperview

> Quote: Originally Posted by *Katzndogz*
> 
> 
> _This  whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact  that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution._



lol.

Jefferson didn't. 

Boy, was that ever a dumb post.


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## Sunni Man

Dot Com said:


>


LINK to textbook; or just more of your typical liberal lies and BS


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## paperview

Jefferson didn't even sign the Constitution.

I will say, however, in response to the question of this thread: Yes, he deserved to be on Mt. Rushmore. 

He was an important Founding Father.


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## paperview

Sunni Man said:


> LINK to textbook; or just more of your typical liberal lies and BS


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## Againsheila

Sunni Man said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LINK to textbook; or just more of your typical liberal lies and BS
Click to expand...


Um, I think it was a joke....


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## Sunni Man

Againsheila said:


> Um, I think it was a joke....


Knowing him; he was serious.

True story...........


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## Dot Com

Sunni Man said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LINK to textbook; or just more of your typical liberal lies and BS
Click to expand...




paperview said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> LINK to textbook; or just more of your typical liberal lies and BS
Click to expand...




Againsheila said:


> Um, I think it was a joke....


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## rightwinger

No questions with any of the four


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## Liability

ginscpy said:


> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??



Aside from being one of the stronger voices for Independence, an articulate political philosophy for the Republic, and that whole Louisiana Purchase thing?


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## Liability

ginscpy said:


> Jefferson was a slaveholder



Lots of folks were in that day and age.

And?

So was Washington for that matter.  Consistency is not your strongest suit?


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## Liability

MuadDib said:


> Nobody should be on Mount Rushmore. The deification of politicians in a nation like ours is a dangerous practice.



Monuments are not deification.


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## hjmick

Liability said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was a slaveholder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of folks were in that day and age.
> 
> And?'
> 
> So was Washington for that matter.  *Consistency is not your strongest suit?*
Click to expand...


You had to make that a question?


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## Peach

Truthseeker420 said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of america - lincoln preserved the union, tdr made america relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did jefferson do ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tdr?
Click to expand...


Teddy is the one I question, if you doubt Jefferson made a difference, read the Constitution.


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## regent

Jefferson changed the direction of the country. After two Federalist presidents in a row  the country was sorted headed to where? With the election of Jefferson the conservative party. like old soldiers, just faded away, and with the conservative party gone, the period became known as the Era of Good Feelings. America began to live up to the Declaration of Independence and the Constituton. Gone was the Alien and Sedition Act in which Americans had to be careful of criticizing government or president or end up in the pokey. Jefferson bought Louisiana for pennies an acre. Jefferson's forte was probably not in administration but more of inspiration. We still think of Jefferson with the founding of America, and though he was in Paris when they wrote the Constitution he hovered over the writers. I often wonder what the Constitution would be like if he had been here for the writing.  
But maybe Jefferson should be noted for giving us so many quotes.


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## Liability

hjmick said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was a slaveholder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of folks were in that day and age.
> 
> And?'
> 
> So was Washington for that matter.  *Consistency is not your strongest suit?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You had to make that a question?
Click to expand...



Let's call it rhetorical -- at least in this instance.


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## Peach

paperview said:


> Jefferson didn't even sign the Constitution.
> 
> I will say, however, in response to the question of this thread: Yes, he deserved to be on Mt. Rushmore.
> 
> He was an important Founding Father.



He was the Minister to France when the Constitution was drafted, correct. He had written the Constitution for the state of Virginia, which was a model for the US Constitution, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. His correspondence to many of the framers was also vital in defining the new Constitution. Jefferson, more so than Adams, was firm in his faith in the individual, and the necessity of individual rights. Jefferson helped the United Stares become known in Europe, and his intellect, wit, and personality accomplished much for the new nation.

Roosevelt began his "splendid little war", but was known primarily within the US. TR was certainly a great POLITICIAN though. Either Adams, or FDR, would be the best addition to the monument, if one is ever considered.


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## Not2BSubjugated

Judging from the sensibilities of the up and coming generation, the next face on Mt Rushmore (if another's added) is going to be a toss-up between Optimus Prime and Snookie.


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## Old Rocks

Katzndogz said:


> Jefferson and Washingon both held slaves because there was no alternative at the time.  They were both ablitionists too and both gave all of their slaves their freedom when they died.



Nice myth, true in the case of Washington, not true in the case of Jefferson. And neither was ever an abolitionist. The only founding father that I know of that once owned slaves and became an abolitionist was Ben Franklin.


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## Old Rocks

Peach said:


> paperview said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson didn't even sign the Constitution.
> 
> I will say, however, in response to the question of this thread: Yes, he deserved to be on Mt. Rushmore.
> 
> He was an important Founding Father.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was the Minister to France when the Constitution was drafted, correct. He had written the Constitution for the state of Virginia, which was a model for the US Constitution, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. His correspondence to many of the framers was also vital in defining the new Constitution. Jefferson, more so than Adams, was firm in his faith in the individual, and the necessity of individual rights. Jefferson helped the United Stares become known in Europe, and his intellect, wit, and personality accomplished much for the new nation.
> 
> Roosevelt began his "splendid little war", but was known primarily within the US. TR was certainly a great POLITICIAN though. Either Adams, or FDR, would be the best addition to the monument, if one is ever considered.
Click to expand...


His conservation ethic was one of the primary movers in the preservation of the unique areas in our nation for the enjoyment of all. Also, I believe he is the only President that ever had an article published in a peer reviewed scientific journal.


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## Old Rocks

Peach said:


> paperview said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson didn't even sign the Constitution.
> 
> I will say, however, in response to the question of this thread: Yes, he deserved to be on Mt. Rushmore.
> 
> He was an important Founding Father.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was the Minister to France when the Constitution was drafted, correct. He had written the Constitution for the state of Virginia, which was a model for the US Constitution, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. His correspondence to many of the framers was also vital in defining the new Constitution. Jefferson, more so than Adams, was firm in his faith in the individual, and the necessity of individual rights. Jefferson helped the United Stares become known in Europe, and his intellect, wit, and personality accomplished much for the new nation.
> 
> Roosevelt began his "splendid little war", but was known primarily within the US. TR was certainly a great POLITICIAN though. Either Adams, or FDR, would be the best addition to the monument, if one is ever considered.
Click to expand...


And I happen to agree with your choices if there is an addition.


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## paperview

Old Rocks said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson and Washingon both held slaves because there was no alternative at the time.  They were both ablitionists too and both gave all of their slaves their freedom when they died.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice myth, true in the case of Washington, not true in the case of Jefferson. And neither was ever an abolitionist. The only founding father that I know of that once owned slaves and became an abolitionist was Ben Franklin.
Click to expand...

^  What he said.


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## Synthaholic

alan1 said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Lincoln trampled all over states rights in direct violation of the constitution.
> He is the one you should be challenging.
> I do not now, nor have I ever supported slavery.
> Mr Lincoln created an atmosphere of "an all powerful federal government" that is allowed to supersede states rights by force.
Click to expand...

What part of 'United' States don't you understand?

What part of 'in order to form a more perfect union' don't you understand?


Take your time....


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## Againsheila

Synthaholic said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Lincoln trampled all over states rights in direct violation of the constitution.
> He is the one you should be challenging.
> I do not now, nor have I ever supported slavery.
> Mr Lincoln created an atmosphere of "an all powerful federal government" that is allowed to supersede states rights by force.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What part of 'United' States don't you understand?
> 
> What part of 'in order to form a more perfect union' don't you understand?
> 
> 
> Take your time....
Click to expand...


REad the Declaration of Independence, it is that which gives the states the right to leave the Union....just as we left England....


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## Artevelde

ginscpy said:


> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.



Obviously one can debate this at length. I would argue that Jefferson probably does deserve to be on Mount Rushmore because of his role in the Declaration of Independence and (especially) because of the Louisiana Purchase.


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## Artevelde

Katzndogz said:


> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.



You are confusing the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Jefferson was nowhere near when the Constitution was being written.


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## Artevelde

Katzndogz said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under Jefferson's direction and control with substantial influence by James Madison.   Madison should be there instead of FDR.
Click to expand...


FDR isn't on Mount Rushmore and Jefferson wasn't even involved in drafting the US Constitution.


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## MuadDib

Synthaholic said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Lincoln trampled all over states rights in direct violation of the constitution.
> He is the one you should be challenging.
> I do not now, nor have I ever supported slavery.
> Mr Lincoln created an atmosphere of "an all powerful federal government" that is allowed to supersede states rights by force.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What part of 'United' States don't you understand?
> 
> What part of 'in order to form a more perfect union' don't you understand?
> 
> 
> Take your time....
Click to expand...


States have historical right to secede | The Columbia Daily Tribune - Columbia, Missouri


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## Old Rocks

MuadDib said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Lincoln trampled all over states rights in direct violation of the constitution.
> He is the one you should be challenging.
> I do not now, nor have I ever supported slavery.
> Mr Lincoln created an atmosphere of "an all powerful federal government" that is allowed to supersede states rights by force.
> 
> 
> 
> What part of 'United' States don't you understand?
> 
> What part of 'in order to form a more perfect union' don't you understand?
> 
> 
> Take your time....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> States have historical right to secede | The Columbia Daily Tribune - Columbia, Missouri
Click to expand...


My Great Grandfather fought in the 11th Illinois infantry to settle that issue. It was settled at Appomattox Court House. States do not have the right to secede.


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## paperview

MuadDib said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Lincoln trampled all over states rights in direct violation of the constitution.
> He is the one you should be challenging.
> I do not now, nor have I ever supported slavery.
> Mr Lincoln created an atmosphere of "an all powerful federal government" that is allowed to supersede states rights by force.
> 
> 
> 
> What part of 'United' States don't you understand?
> 
> What part of 'in order to form a more perfect union' don't you understand?
> 
> 
> Take your time....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> States have historical right to secede | The Columbia Daily Tribune - Columbia, Missouri
Click to expand...

I'll see your ridiculous Walter Williams Op-Ed, and raise you one Scalia:

Scalia: States have "no right to secede" - PoliTex

"I am afraid I cannot be of much help with your problem, principally  because I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the  Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. *If there was any  constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no  right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, "one Nation,  indivisible.")* Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties  to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a  declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its  consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit."

Furthermore: Texas v. White


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## paperview

Old Rocks said:


> MuadDib said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> What part of 'United' States don't you understand?
> 
> What part of 'in order to form a more perfect union' don't you understand?
> 
> 
> Take your time....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States have historical right to secede | The Columbia Daily Tribune - Columbia, Missouri
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My Great Grandfather fought in the 11th Illinois infantry to settle that issue. It was settled at Appomattox Court House. States do not have the right to secede.
Click to expand...

You'd think after getting their asses beat as bad as they did, and the results of that war, they'd figure it out...

but _nooooooooo_, some 150 years later, they're still fighting it.


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## freedombecki

hjmick said:


> Yep. Jefferson, not a difference maker...
> 
> <sarcasm off>


The man who charmed the Louisiana Purchase off the French for seven million dollars is not a difference maker? 






<oh. ya got me.  >​


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## freedombecki

ginscpy said:


> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??


It would appear he furnished the ground the Mount Rushmore stands on, that's all.


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## freedombecki

MuadDib said:


> Nobody should be on Mount Rushmore. The deification of politicians in a nation like ours is a dangerous practice.


That's why we have the second amendment, MuadDib.


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## freedombecki

hjmick said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under Jefferson's direction and control with substantial influence by James Madison.   Madison should be there instead of FDR.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As much as he could from Paris...
> 
> Madison is much more responsible for the Constitution than Jefferson, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

We seem to read the same books, hjmick.  

However, some credit a broader base of patriots with writing the document.



> A man named Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania was in charge of the  committee to draft the final copy of the Constitution. Other men who had  much to do with writing the Constitution included John Dickinson,  Gouverneur Morris, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Edmund  Randolph, James Madison, Roger Sherman, James Wilson, and George Wythe.  Morris was given the task of putting all the convention's  resolutions and decisions into polished form. Morris actually "wrote"  the Constitution. The original copy of the document is preserved in the  National Archives Building in Washington, D.C.
> 
> Jacob Shallus  who, at the time, was assistant clerk of the Pennsylvania State  Assembly, and whose office was in the same building in which the  Convention was held, was given the task of engrossing the Constitution  prior to its being signed. *
> Here is more input from other WikiAnswers contributors:*
> 
> The  U.S. Constitution is the work of several men, directly and indirectly.  The three most notable persons whose work influenced the Constitution  but who were not involved in its writing are Thomas Jefferson, John  Adams and Thomas Paine. The group of men involved in the writing of the  Constitution are generally referred to as the "framers".
> 
> 
> No  single individual wrote it. Twelve of the thirteen states sent  delegates to the Constitutional Convention to revise the Articles of  Confederation and the entire convention worked on it. After the  political questions were hashed out a 'committee of style' was formed to  put the ideas into formal words. It is generally accepted that  Gouverneur Morris created most of the actual wording included in the  final draft from the Committee of Style.
> 
> 
> The original copy of the document is preserved in the National Archives Building in Washington, D.C.
> 
> 
> The  person most associated with authoring the US Constitution was James  Madison, the fourth President of the United States. Primary Author:  James Madison (drafted the Virginia Plan). He is known as "The Father of  the Constitution." James Madison wrote the Constitution in 1787. The  constitution wasn't passed until 1788.
> 
> Read more: Who wrote the US Constitution
> ​


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## freedombecki

> Teddy is the one I question


Teddy Roosevelt set aside lands for Conservation and 125 million acres, doubling number and size of all National Parks of the time. If you haven't been to them, or just don't like the beauty of nature, no, you wouldn't care to see Theodore Roosevelt's felted mush on Mt. Rushmore. 

Conservationist Theodore Roosevelt

150 National Forests
51 Federal Bird Reservations
4 National Game Preserves
5 National Parks
18 National Monuments
24 Reclamation Projects
7 Conservation Conferences and Conventions





Wizard Island on Crater Lake showing a bit of its clarity

God blessed America when people like Theodore Roosevelt showed by doing what good conservation is all about. He cared for the earth and preserving the best places in America for all to enjoy.​


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## Peach

freedombecki said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear he furnished the ground the Mount Rushmore stands on, that's all.
Click to expand...


Jefferson made the US KNOWN on the world stage. TR started a "splendid little war".


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## Peach

Liability said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was a slaveholder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of folks were in that day and age.
> 
> And?
> 
> So was Washington for that matter.  Consistency is not your strongest suit?
Click to expand...


No, his wife was.


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## hortysir

Synthaholic said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Lincoln trampled all over states rights in direct violation of the constitution.
> He is the one you should be challenging.
> I do not now, nor have I ever supported slavery.
> Mr Lincoln created an atmosphere of "an all powerful federal government" that is allowed to supersede states rights by force.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What part of 'United' States don't you understand?
> 
> What part of 'in order to form a more perfect union' don't you understand?
> 
> 
> Take your time....
Click to expand...

"These"


----------



## Peach

Old Rocks said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paperview said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson didn't even sign the Constitution.
> 
> I will say, however, in response to the question of this thread: Yes, he deserved to be on Mt. Rushmore.
> 
> He was an important Founding Father.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was the Minister to France when the Constitution was drafted, correct. He had written the Constitution for the state of Virginia, which was a model for the US Constitution, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. His correspondence to many of the framers was also vital in defining the new Constitution. Jefferson, more so than Adams, was firm in his faith in the individual, and the necessity of individual rights. Jefferson helped the United Stares become known in Europe, and his intellect, wit, and personality accomplished much for the new nation.
> 
> Roosevelt began his "splendid little war", but was known primarily within the US. TR was certainly a great POLITICIAN though. Either Adams, or FDR, would be the best addition to the monument, if one is ever considered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I happen to agree with your choices if there is an addition.
Click to expand...


I have no real problem with TR, he did stand up for working people in more ways than are known to many. But the questions about Jefferson are bizarre. He wrote the Declaration, and the Virginia Constitution was the model for the US Constitution:

Constitution of Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## paperview

Peach said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was a slaveholder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of folks were in that day and age.
> 
> And?
> 
> So was Washington for that matter.  Consistency is not your strongest suit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, his wife was.
Click to expand...

No.  Washington was a slaveholder.In addition to those he inherited from his father, he purchased quite a number of them.


----------



## paperview

Image                of census courtesy Mount Vernon​                                  The list details the adult and child slaves on each of the Mount Vernon          farms, usually giving ages, occupations, and other pertinent information.          [Note: the list has been divided into seven parts for on-line          distribution.] 

Washington's list of 317 slaves, printed          immediately below, includes the names of 124 who belonged to him outright          and were to be freed when Martha Washington died, 153 who were Martha          Washington's dower slaves and at her death would go to the Custis heir-at-law,          her grandson George Washington Parke Custis, and forty others leased by          GW from his neighbor Penelope Manley French. 

Of the 277 slaves belonging          to Washington in his own right or by marriage, 179 were 12 years old or          older, eighteen of whom were "Passed labor." The remaining ninety-eight          were children under the age of 12. Of those twelve years old and over,          ninety-five were females and eighty-four were males.


----------



## freedombecki

Peach said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear he furnished the ground the Mount Rushmore stands on, that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jefferson made the US KNOWN on the world stage. TR started a "splendid little war".
Click to expand...

He earned the Congressional Medal of Honor for it, ma'am, and destroyed the Spanish Fleet. Considering that Spain had holdings in half of South America, his little play on words was quite modest. And you're beating a dead horse. I think you should stuff your hatred for Republicans somewhere besides on your open sleeve.


----------



## Peach

paperview said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liability said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of folks were in that day and age.
> 
> And?
> 
> So was Washington for that matter.  Consistency is not your strongest suit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, his wife was.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No.  Washington was a slaveholder.In addition to those he inherited from his father, he purchased quite a number of them.
Click to expand...


Read some of the actual words of those that opposed slavery, like Jefferson:

Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery throughout his life.[1]   He considered it contrary to the laws of nature that decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. He called the institution an "abominable crime," a "moral depravity," a "hideous blot," and a "fatal stain" that deformed "what nature had bestowed on us of her fairest gifts."

Early in his political career Jefferson took actions that he hoped would end in slavery's abolition. He drafted the Virginia law of 1778 prohibiting the importation of enslaved Africans. In 1784 he proposed an ordinance banning slavery in the new territories of the Northwest. From the mid-1770s he advocated a plan of gradual emancipation, by which all born into slavery after a certain date would be declared free.

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).

Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.

In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.

It is not surprising that Washington would sign such a law, for it was he who had declared:

I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].
George Washington


Notice a few additional examples of the Founder's strong antislavery sentiments:

[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known [N]ever in my life did I own a slave.
John Adams, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. President. The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States (Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1854), vol IX pp. 92-93. In a letter to George Churchman and Jacob Lindley on January 24, 1801.

[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil.
Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1898), Vol. II, pg. 231.

As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they [c]urse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery].
John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution and Governor of Pennsylvania. Charles J. Stille, The Life and Times of John Dickinson (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1898) p. 324.

That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent as well as unjust and perhaps impious part.
John Jay, President of Continental Congress, Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and Governor of New York. Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1891), Vol. III, pp. 168-169. In a letter to Dr. Richard Price on Sep. 27, 1785.

Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts by agreeing to this duty.
Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Memoir of the Life of Richard Henry Lee and His Correspondence With the Most Distinguised Men in America and Europe (Philadelphia: H.C. Carey and I. Lea, 1825), Vol. I, pp. 17-19. The first speech of Richard Henry Lee in the House of Burgesses.

_t ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master.
Luther Martin, Constitutional Convention Delegate. James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. III, pg. 211.

Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men.
Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Minutes of the Proceedings of a Convention of Delegates From the Abolition Societies Established in Different Parts of the United States, Assembled at Philadelphia, on the First Day of January, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety-Four (Philadelphia: Zachariah Poulson, 1794), p. 24. To the Citizens of the United States.

Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all.
James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, Robert Green McCloskey, editor (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. II, pg. 605.

It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others and take away their liberty by no better right than superior force.
John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), p. 81, Lectures on Moral Philosophy.
Numerous similar quotes could be cited._


----------



## GHook93

ginscpy said:


> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.



You can't be serious! TJ was the best President we ever had!
(1) He pened the Declaration of Independence with the key line, "All men are created equally!"
(2) The Lousiana Purchase: He expanded the sized of the US negotiating a purchase for pennies on the dollar. Not one gun shot was fired to get this land!
(3) Successful won the Barbary wars with minimal effort and expense!
(4) Funded Lewis and Clark
(5) West Point was his brainchild
(6) He cut taxes, reduced spending, shrunk the size of government, balanced the budget and oversaw a very good and rapidly growing economy!
(7) He was the first one to float the idea of "Wall between the Church and State," but it didn't become a fundmental principal of the land to decades later.
(8) He was strongly against borrowing and creating burdensome Federal Deficits!
(9) President Jefferson signed into law a bill that banned the importation of slaves into the United States. Jefferson 
(10) The Jefferson Economy Philosophy is the BEST economic philosophy of any President!

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


----------



## paperview

Peach said:


> paperview said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peach said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, his wife was.
> 
> 
> 
> No.  Washington was a slaveholder.In addition to those he inherited from his father, he purchased quite a number of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read some of the actual words of those that opposed slavery, like Jefferson:
> 
> Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery throughout his life.[1]   He considered it contrary to the laws of nature that decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. He called the institution an "abominable crime," a "moral depravity," a "hideous blot," and a "fatal stain" that deformed "what nature had bestowed on us of her fairest gifts."
> 
> Early in his political career Jefferson took actions that he hoped would end in slavery's abolition. He drafted the Virginia law of 1778 prohibiting the importation of enslaved Africans. In 1784 he proposed an ordinance banning slavery in the new territories of the Northwest. From the mid-1770s he advocated a plan of gradual emancipation, by which all born into slavery after a certain date would be declared free.
> 
> Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).
> 
> ...
> 
> &#8220;[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known&#8230; [N]ever in my life did I own a slave.&#8221;
> ...
> Numerous similar quotes could be cited.
Click to expand...

I don't need to get into  a quote war with you. 

I know plenty about Jefferson and his views on slavery -- he was  a terribly conflicted  man, and yes, he did oppose the idea of slavery - nonetheless, he owned, bought and sold slaves.

When he wrote the Declaration, he was much more forthright in his condemnation of it...that changed over time, and what you will see was a man who, after we had won the war, and we plodded along towards the convention and the signing of the Constitution, *he never said anything publicly against slavery.  He was conspicuously silent on the matter. *

Go head. See if you can find a public quote from him after 1787 against slavery. 
Give it a jog. Prove me wrong. 

He had the power to make changes in the laws, via his bully pulpit, and all other forms as other abolitionists did, but *nothing.*  

Nothing.

You will not find anything from Jefferson publicly stated after that Constitution was signed where he was against "the peculiar institution."  Nothing.

That said, he *was* against slavery, in principle. Just not for himself, personally.

He was a slaveholder through and through, and even when given a chance to free some, held on. 

He was a terribly conflicted man.  Anyone who has done the slightest biographical reading on him would know that.


----------



## Peach

GHook93 said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't be serious! TJ was the best President we ever had!
> (1) He pened the Declaration of Independence with the key line, "All men are created equally!"
> (2) The Lousiana Purchase: He expanded the sized of the US negotiating a purchase for pennies on the dollar. Not one gun shot was fired to get this land!
> (3) Successful won the Barbary wars with minimal effort and expense!
> (4) Funded Lewis and Clark
> (5) West Point was his brainchild
> (6) He cut taxes, reduced spending, shrunk the size of government, balanced the budget and oversaw a very good and rapidly growing economy!
> (7) He was the first one to float the idea of "Wall between the Church and State," but it didn't become a fundmental principal of the land to decades later.
> (8) He was strongly against borrowing and creating burdensome Federal Deficits!
> (9) President Jefferson signed into law a bill that banned the importation of slaves into the United States. Jefferson
> (10) The Jefferson Economy Philosophy is the BEST economic philosophy of any President!
> 
> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Click to expand...


I agree, as JFK phrased it, to a group of Nobel Laureates: "The greatest collection of minds ever assembled in one room, with the exception of Thomas Jefferson, dining alone."


----------



## Peach

paperview said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paperview said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  Washington was a slaveholder.In addition to those he inherited from his father, he purchased quite a number of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read some of the actual words of those that opposed slavery, like Jefferson:
> 
> Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery throughout his life.[1]   He considered it contrary to the laws of nature that decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. He called the institution an "abominable crime," a "moral depravity," a "hideous blot," and a "fatal stain" that deformed "what nature had bestowed on us of her fairest gifts."
> 
> Early in his political career Jefferson took actions that he hoped would end in slavery's abolition. He drafted the Virginia law of 1778 prohibiting the importation of enslaved Africans. In 1784 he proposed an ordinance banning slavery in the new territories of the Northwest. From the mid-1770s he advocated a plan of gradual emancipation, by which all born into slavery after a certain date would be declared free.
> 
> Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).
> 
> Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.
> 
> In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.
> 
> It is not surprising that Washington would sign such a law, for it was he who had declared:
> 
> I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].
> George Washington
> 
> 
> Notice a few additional examples of the Founder's strong antislavery sentiments:
> 
> [M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known [N]ever in my life did I own a slave.
> John Adams, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. President. The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States (Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1854), vol IX pp. 92-93. In a letter to George Churchman and Jacob Lindley on January 24, 1801.
> 
> [W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil.
> Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1898), Vol. II, pg. 231.
> 
> As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they [c]urse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery].
> John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution and Governor of Pennsylvania. Charles J. Stille, The Life and Times of John Dickinson (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1898) p. 324.
> 
> That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent as well as unjust and perhaps impious part.
> John Jay, President of Continental Congress, Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and Governor of New York. Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1891), Vol. III, pp. 168-169. In a letter to Dr. Richard Price on Sep. 27, 1785.
> 
> Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts by agreeing to this duty.
> Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Memoir of the Life of Richard Henry Lee and His Correspondence With the Most Distinguised Men in America and Europe (Philadelphia: H.C. Carey and I. Lea, 1825), Vol. I, pp. 17-19. The first speech of Richard Henry Lee in the House of Burgesses.
> 
> _t ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master.
> Luther Martin, Constitutional Convention Delegate. James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. III, pg. 211.
> 
> Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men.
> Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Minutes of the Proceedings of a Convention of Delegates From the Abolition Societies Established in Different Parts of the United States, Assembled at Philadelphia, on the First Day of January, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety-Four (Philadelphia: Zachariah Poulson, 1794), p. 24. To the Citizens of the United States.
> 
> Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all.
> James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, Robert Green McCloskey, editor (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. II, pg. 605.
> 
> It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others and take away their liberty by no better right than superior force.
> John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), p. 81, Lectures on Moral Philosophy.
> Numerous similar quotes could be cited._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _
> I don't need to get into  a quote war with you.
> 
> I know plenty about Jefferson and his views on slavery -- he was  a terribly conflicted  man, and yes, he did oppose the idea of slavery - nonetheless, he owned, bought and sold slaves.
> 
> When he wrote the Declaration, he was much more forthright in his condemnation of it...that changed over time, and what you will see was a man who, after we had won the war, and we plodded along towards the convention and the signing of the Constitution, *he never said anything publicly against slavery.  He was conspicuously silent on the matter. *
> 
> Go head. See if you can find a public quote from him after 1787 against slavery.
> Give it a jog. Prove me wrong.
> 
> He had the power to make changes in the laws, via his bully pulpit, and all other forms as other abolitionists did, but *nothing.*
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> You will not find anything from Jefferson publicly stated after that Constitution was signed where he was against "the curious institution."  Nothing.
> 
> That said, he *was* against slavery, in principle. Just not for himself, personally.
> 
> He was a slaveholder through and through, and even when given a chance to free some, held on.
> 
> He was a terribly conflicted man.  Anyone who has done the slightest biographical reading on him would know that._
Click to expand...

_

I have no desire to "prove you wrong"; Jefferson was anti slavery, but a man of his times He was deeply in debt, could not free his slaves except to pay his debt, here are some facts &  part of his Last Will & Testament, however:

Robert Hemings (1762-1819), freed 1794. 
James Hemings (1765-1801), freed 1796. 
Thomas Jefferson freed five slaves in his will.

Joseph (Joe) Fossett (1780-1858) 
Burwell Colbert (1783-1850+) 
Madison Hemings (1805-1856) 
John Hemmings (1776-1833) 
Eston Hemings (1808-1856) 
Thomas Jefferson gave tacit consent for the following slaves to leave Monticello, in 1804 and 1822

James Hemings (born 1787) 
Beverly Hemings (born 1798) 
Harriet Hemings (born 1801) 
The remaining slaves he owned at the time of his death were to be sold to settle debts with creditors.

He had little choice, at that time._


----------



## PoliticalChic

ginscpy said:


> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.



Jeezzzzz.....didn't Gutzon Borglum do enough????


----------



## Peach

PoliticalChic said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washington and Lincoln are a given.
> 
> TDR iffy.
> 
> My issue is with Jefferson.
> 
> Not a difference -maker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeezzzzz.....didn't Gutzon Borglum do enough????
Click to expand...


Good one! Some want him disinterred to keep working!


----------



## Dick Tuck

freedombecki said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear he furnished the ground the Mount Rushmore stands on, that's all.
Click to expand...


So where do you wingnuts find the authorization, in the constitution, to use public money to purchase property?  I agree with Jefferson's decision, but if you do you have to accept the "social welfare" clause as being intentionally overly broad.


----------



## hortysir

Dick Tuck said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear he furnished the ground the Mount Rushmore stands on, that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So where do you wingnuts find the authorization, in the constitution, to use public money to purchase property?  I agree with Jefferson's decision, but if you do you have to accept the "social welfare" clause as being intentionally overly broad.
Click to expand...



 Therefore, he  personally drafted a constitutional amendment authorizing the national  government to acquire new lands and allowing for the indefinite settlement of  the new territory.  However, Jefferson and his colleagues feared the time it  would take to adopt a new amendment might allow the deal to slip through their  fingers.  Urged by fellow Republicans, he dropped the amendment and * submitted the treaty that provided for the Louisiana Purchase to the Senate,  where it was speedily ratified.*

SparkNotes: The First Years of the Union (1797-1809): The Louisiana Purchase


----------



## GHook93

Dick Tuck said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear he furnished the ground the Mount Rushmore stands on, that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So where do you wingnuts find the authorization, in the constitution, to use public money to purchase property?  I agree with Jefferson's decision, but if you do you have to accept the "social welfare" clause as being intentionally overly broad.
Click to expand...

The spending clause you stupid little troll! 

Although the spending clause is Congress to act upon, that wasn't your question!


----------



## Cecilie1200

Katzndogz said:


> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.



Um, Thomas Jefferson DIDN'T write the Constitution.  He wasn't even in the country when it was written.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Katzndogz said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under Jefferson's direction and control with substantial influence by James Madison.   Madison should be there instead of FDR.
Click to expand...


Katz, Jefferson had no "direction and control" in regards to the Constitution.  He was in France at the time, serving as our ambassador.  And James Madison, known to history as "the Father of the US Constitution", had a lot more than "substantial influence".


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## Cecilie1200

Peach said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of america - lincoln preserved the union, tdr made america relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did jefferson do ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tdr?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Teddy is the one I question, if you doubt Jefferson made a difference, read the Constitution.
Click to expand...


Oh, my freaking God.  What IS it with you people?  Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution!  His ass was in EUROPE at the time!  What do you think, he hopped the Concorde to come back and weigh in on it?  He was having late-night phone chats with James Madison about it?


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## Cecilie1200

Peach said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was a slaveholder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of folks were in that day and age.
> 
> And?
> 
> So was Washington for that matter.  Consistency is not your strongest suit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, his wife was.
Click to expand...


No, Washington himself owned some, as well.


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## Cecilie1200

The faces on Mt. Rushmore were chosen by the artist to reflect his personal opinion of who had done the most in the first 150 years to protect the Republic and expand it.

As a work of art, it should not be altered or added on to.  It would be every bit as inappropriate as painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.


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## Rozman

ginscpy said:


> Why??
> 
> Washington  was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.
> 
> What did Jefferson do ??



I'm surprised that there hasn't been a push by MSNBC for Obama to be up there.


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## Nemo

Thomas Jefferson had a significant influence on the founding of the nation; albeit his ideas were not adopted by the framers of the Constitution. Jefferson was serving as Ambassador to France at the time of the Constitutional Convention; and except for his correspondence with some of the delegates, what resulted was largely the work of James Madison. (Even his draft Constitution and Declaration of Rights for Virginia was rejected in favor of the model of George Mason.) Jeffersons main contribution was the Louisiana Purchase, which opened the way to westward expansion, and the rise of America to become one of the great nations of the world. The epitaph on his tomb recites: "Here was buried Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for religious freedom, & Father of the University of Virginia." He died bankrupt; but he nevertheless left a rich legacy for all of us.


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## paperview

Cecilie1200 said:


> Oh, my freaking God.  What IS it with you people?  Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution!  His ass was in EUROPE at the time!  What do you think, he hopped the Concorde to come back and weigh in on it?  He was having late-night phone chats with James Madison about it?


Jefferson was in Paris, yes, but TJ certainly had an influence.

They had this thing called _*letters*_.  Wild huh?  They were sent back and forth and they still reside in special places we call National Archives, Libraries and Museums.

Here's one:

* Jefferson objects to absence
                of Bill of Rights *

                Thomas Jefferson's December 20, 1787, letter to James Madison                  contains objections to key parts of the new Federal Constitution.                  Primarily, Jefferson noted the absence of a bill of rights and                  the failure to provide for rotation in office or term limits,                  particularly for the chief executive.

*During the writing and ratification                  of the constitution, in an effort to influence the formation of                  the new governmental structure, Jefferson wrote many similar letters                  to friends and political acquaintances in America. *


 

Thomas Jefferson                  to James Madison
                December 20, 1787.
                Manuscript letter.
Page 2
Manuscript Division (106)

Here's another: 






In case it's too hard to read, Jefferson here makes that famous quote:
 "our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and                  that cannot be limited without being lost."

Need more?  Read the series of letters between John Adams and Jefferson regarding the debates.  Fascinating.

Here's more, for your perusal:

To Edward Carrington, Paris, January 16, 1787 
To James Madison, Paris, January 30, 1787 
To Abigail Adams, Paris, Feb. 22, 1787 
To Lafayette, Nice, April 11, 1787 
To Martha Jefferson, May 21, 1787 
To John Adams, Paris, July 1, 1787 
To Peter Carr, Paris, Aug. 10, 1787 
To John Adams, Paris, Aug. 30, 1787 
To William S. Smith, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787 
To John Adams, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

How bout this sniglet?

"The second feature I dislike, (about the Constitution) and greatly dislike, is that abandonment  in every instance of the necessity of rotation in office, and most  particularly in the case of the President."  From &#8220;Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, December 20, 1787,&#8221; page 729

Letters.  Amazing things, eh?


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## whitehall

A president who was elected in 1801 gets grandfathered on Mt Rushmore no question. The Louisiana Purchase was pretty good. Repealing the Whiskey tax was another success story. Staying out the Napolianic Wars was pretty smart. Woodie Wilson told Americans he wouldn't send Americans to fight in a foreign war and then he had a stroke and his wife sent the Dough Boys to save France from the Hun and we did it again twenty years later under another crooked democrat administration.


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## Buford

I think the real question should be this.  Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?


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## regent

Buford said:


> I think the real question should be this.  Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?



Yep, the Democratic party, or at least the southern branch of the party were the founders of the KKK. Their hostility to the party of Lincoln was their cause to be Democratic, not philosophy. In Truman's time the Democratic party decided those votes were not part of the Democratic party philosophy and a change was needed. The loss of the solid south and all those southern votes would hurt, but it was done. The southern Democrats left the Democratic party and formed their own party; the Dixiecrat party. That party failing, the former southern Democrats then joined the Republican party. The Republican party welcomed the former party of the KKK and it is in the Republican party of today they are to be found.


----------



## whitehall

regent said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the real question should be this.  Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, the Democratic party, or at least the southern branch of the party were the founders of the KKK. Their hostility to the party of Lincoln was their cause to be Democratic, not philosophy. In Truman's time the Democratic party decided those votes were not part of the Democratic party philosophy and a change was needed. The loss of the solid south and all those southern votes would hurt, but it was done. The southern Democrats left the Democratic party and formed their own party; the Dixiecrat party. That party failing, the former southern Democrats then joined the Republican party. The Republican party welcomed the former party of the KKK and it is in the Republican party of today they are to be found.
Click to expand...


Same old democrat dodge. Racist democrats get a pass because the ....southern branch was segregationist. When FDR appointed former KKK member Hugo Black to the Supreme Court he joked that KKK members were among his best supporters. When LBJ was considering appointing Thurgood Marshall to the Court and someone recommended Black federal judge Leon Higgembothem LBH remarked "son, the only one who knows Higgenbothem is Higenbothem's mother. When I appoint a ****** to the Supreme Court I want everyone to know he is a ******.


----------



## Cecilie1200

paperview said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, my freaking God.  What IS it with you people?  Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution!  His ass was in EUROPE at the time!  What do you think, he hopped the Concorde to come back and weigh in on it?  He was having late-night phone chats with James Madison about it?
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was in Paris, yes, but TJ certainly had an influence.
> 
> They had this thing called _*letters*_.  Wild huh?  They were sent back and forth and they still reside in special places we call National Archives, Libraries and Museums.
> 
> Here's one:
> 
> * Jefferson objects to absence
> of Bill of Rights *
> 
> Thomas Jefferson's December 20, 1787, letter to James Madison                  contains objections to key parts of the new Federal Constitution.                  Primarily, Jefferson noted the absence of a bill of rights and                  the failure to provide for rotation in office or term limits,                  particularly for the chief executive.
> 
> *During the writing and ratification                  of the constitution, in an effort to influence the formation of                  the new governmental structure, Jefferson wrote many similar letters                  to friends and political acquaintances in America. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thomas Jefferson                  to James Madison
> December 20, 1787.
> Manuscript letter.
> Page 2
> Manuscript Division (106)
> 
> Here's another:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In case it's too hard to read, Jefferson here makes that famous quote:
> "our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and                  that cannot be limited without being lost."
> 
> Need more?  Read the series of letters between John Adams and Jefferson regarding the debates.  Fascinating.
> 
> Here's more, for your perusal:
> 
> To Edward Carrington, Paris, January 16, 1787
> To James Madison, Paris, January 30, 1787
> To Abigail Adams, Paris, Feb. 22, 1787
> To Lafayette, Nice, April 11, 1787
> To Martha Jefferson, May 21, 1787
> To John Adams, Paris, July 1, 1787
> To Peter Carr, Paris, Aug. 10, 1787
> To John Adams, Paris, Aug. 30, 1787
> To William S. Smith, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787
> To John Adams, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787
> 
> How bout this sniglet?
> 
> "The second feature I dislike, (about the Constitution) and greatly dislike, is that abandonment  in every instance of the necessity of rotation in office, and most  particularly in the case of the President."  From Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, December 20, 1787, page 729
> 
> Letters.  Amazing things, eh?
Click to expand...


In 1787, it took something like two months for a letter to travel one-way between America and Europe.  What'd you think, they just slung the mail bag onto a US Postal Service jet?  The Constitutional Convention, on the other hand, lasted about 17 weeks, or just over four months.  That doesn't leave a lot of room for deep, meaningful consultation, completely aside from the insult it deals to all the men who gathered for the Convention by implying that they were too damned stupid to come up with any ideas of their own.

Give it up, get over this slavish worship that makes you want to believe Thomas Jefferson was the only Founding Father and the sum total of the formation of the United States, and be realistic.  James Madison is the Father of the Constitution, not Thomas Jefferson.  George Mason is the Father of the Bill of Rights.  George Washington was THE most admired man in the nation, and the one for whom the job of President was specifically tailored.  We have lots of Founders besides Thomas Jefferson, and while he's among the best-known and most influential, he's far from singular.


----------



## paperview

Cecilie1200 said:


> In 1787, it took something like two months for a letter to travel one-way between America and Europe.  What'd you think, they just slung the mail bag onto a US Postal Service jet?  The Constitutional Convention, on the other hand, lasted about 17 weeks, or just over four months.  That doesn't leave a lot of room for deep, meaningful consultation, completely aside from the insult it deals to all the men who gathered for the Convention by implying that they were too damned stupid to come up with any ideas of their own.
> 
> Give it up, get over this slavish worship that makes you want to believe Thomas Jefferson was the only Founding Father and the sum total of the formation of the United States, and be realistic.  James Madison is the Father of the Constitution, not Thomas Jefferson.  George Mason is the Father of the Bill of Rights.  George Washington was THE most admired man in the nation, and the one for whom the job of President was specifically tailored.  We have lots of Founders besides Thomas Jefferson, and while he's among the best-known and most influential, he's far from singular.


That's a pretty weird reply to my thorough post which clearly shows, as my first sentence rebuttal states: *He had an influence --
*to your whacked out exclamation: "_Oh, my freaking God.  What IS it with you people?  Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution_!"

 As for your assertion the whole alpha and omega of the Constitution was  decided, as if in a vacuum, in four months - is another absurdity. 

You somehow neglect to consider the many debates of the Continental and Confederation Congress', the Annapolis Convention  in 1786 and that little thing called the Articles of Confederation,  which we were operating under at the time, and what the 1787 Convention  was initially  meant to only remedy, not replace. 
The Bill of Rights was formally birthed August of 1789 and ratified  almost 2 1/2 years later, and it was the lack of that Bill of Rights  that put ratification of that newly inked Constitution in peril. In  fact, some were even calling for a whole new Convention.  Jefferson  again, had influence on this, as he remarked quite clearly in his many letters to Adams, Washington and Madison how he found it unacceptable to not include that. 

Do you think lengthy letters like these from James Madison to Jefferson and these from Jefferson to Madison  had any influence in helping to secure its ratification?  You think  those missives Madison scribed to the New York papers, those  posits  we've come to know as The Federalist Papers, happened in a vacuum too?  Without influence from the man who penned the Declaration of  Independence?

 You were owned.  As you most often are here.  Crow,  it's what's for dinner.
 Chow.


----------



## regent

whitehall said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buford said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the real question should be this.  Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, the Democratic party, or at least the southern branch of the party were the founders of the KKK. Their hostility to the party of Lincoln was their cause to be Democratic, not philosophy. In Truman's time the Democratic party decided those votes were not part of the Democratic party philosophy and a change was needed. The loss of the solid south and all those southern votes would hurt, but it was done. The southern Democrats left the Democratic party and formed their own party; the Dixiecrat party. That party failing, the former southern Democrats then joined the Republican party. The Republican party welcomed the former party of the KKK and it is in the Republican party of today they are to be found.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Same old democrat dodge. Racist democrats get a pass because the ....southern branch was segregationist. When FDR appointed former KKK member Hugo Black to the Supreme Court he joked that KKK members were among his best supporters. When LBJ was considering appointing Thurgood Marshall to the Court and someone recommended Black federal judge Leon Higgembothem LBH remarked "son, the only one who knows Higgenbothem is Higenbothem's mother. When I appoint a ****** to the Supreme Court I want everyone to know he is a ******.
Click to expand...


The dodge you claim is history, and it can be changed on these boards, but it's in the books for all- time. 
Because the southern Democrats were racists and the Democratic party eased them out and they joined the Republican party, how does that become a pass? Just more history. 

What does LBJ's quote have to do with the question? 

As for Hugo Black. When the DAR refused Marian Anderson the right to sing from their Constitution Hall because the DAR allowed only white people in the hall, she sang instead from the Lincoln Memorial. The DAR hall held 3500 people, and 75,000 attended the Anderson concert along with Justice Hugo Black.


----------

