# Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says



## Wolf

Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says
Posted: 10:43 AM ET

From CNN Associate Producer Martina Stewart


Palin says she and Johnston still plan to wed.
(CNN)  In her first interview since giving birth to son Tripp, Bristol Palin, daughter of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, said its not realistic to expect abstinence outside of marriage.

Watch: Bristol Palin breaks her silence

Everyone should be abstinent . . . but its not realistic at all, the 18-year-old told Foxs Greta Van Susteren, adding that having sex as a teenager had become more and more accepted now among people her age.

The new mother, who gave birth to Gov. Palins first grandchild late last year, said her decision to go forward with an unplanned pregnancy was entirely her own.

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Abstinence &#8216;is not realistic,&#8217; Palin&#8217;s daughter says « - Blogs from CNN.com


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## Ravi

lmao


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## Anguille

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

Besides in some of those cults, you can become a born again virgin. There is even a church ceremont for it! My sister worked with a guy whose daughter did it.


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## Againsheila

Wolf said:


> Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says
> Posted: 10:43 AM ET
> 
> From CNN Associate Producer Martina Stewart
> 
> 
> Palin says she and Johnston still plan to wed.
> (CNN)  In her first interview since giving birth to son Tripp, Bristol Palin, daughter of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, said its not realistic to expect abstinence outside of marriage.
> 
> Watch: Bristol Palin breaks her silence
> 
> Everyone should be abstinent . . . but its not realistic at all, the 18-year-old told Foxs Greta Van Susteren, adding that having sex as a teenager had become more and more accepted now among people her age.
> 
> The new mother, who gave birth to Gov. Palins first grandchild late last year, said her decision to go forward with an unplanned pregnancy was entirely her own.
> 
> CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Abstinence is not realistic, Palins daughter says « - Blogs from CNN.com



Yes, abstinence is realistic and for those who don't choose abstinence, there is BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!


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## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Wolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says
> Posted: 10:43 AM ET
> 
> From CNN Associate Producer Martina Stewart
> 
> 
> Palin says she and Johnston still plan to wed.
> (CNN)  In her first interview since giving birth to son Tripp, Bristol Palin, daughter of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, said its not realistic to expect abstinence outside of marriage.
> 
> Watch: Bristol Palin breaks her silence
> 
> Everyone should be abstinent . . . but its not realistic at all, the 18-year-old told Foxs Greta Van Susteren, adding that having sex as a teenager had become more and more accepted now among people her age.
> 
> The new mother, who gave birth to Gov. Palins first grandchild late last year, said her decision to go forward with an unplanned pregnancy was entirely her own.
> 
> CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Abstinence is not realistic, Palins daughter says « - Blogs from CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, abstinence is realistic and for those who don't choose abstinence, there is BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!
Click to expand...

 
For best results. Use both!


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## Amanda

I bet Alaska is just as bad as Kansas was for being a boring place to grow up. But seriously if you're going to do it you both need to be taking measures to prevent pregnancy... unless of course you want to have a baby.


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## Skull Pilot

who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?

humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!

Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.

If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.


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## Amanda

Skull Pilot said:


> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.



Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.


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## Modbert

Skull Pilot said:


> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.



Then you just go back to back alley abortions and I'm highly doubting all those doctors who do abortions will all of a sudden stop when it can become highly profitable.


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## Againsheila

Amanda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
Click to expand...


And then you have the guys that want the baby and the woman still aborts.  Face it, in this case, women have all the rights, guys have none.  If she has the baby, he's forced to pay child support even if he didn't want the baby.  She can abort the baby even if he does want the baby.  Nope, it's not fair.  Women are the only ones who can decide legally not to be a parent AFTER conception.

My biggest gripe is that the deciding factor on whether it's a baby or a fetus is strictly at the mother's choosing.


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## Andrew2382

Amanda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
Click to expand...




what a load of shit

How about the woman not "manning up" and taking responsibility as well.  The primary reason for abortions is not because of the men...there are women who go to aboprtion clinics and get them done as if they are routine check ups


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## catzmeow

Amanda said:


> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.



I agree, it takes two to play.  But, as a woman, you need to be damn careful whose sperm you let into your uterus.  Life isn't fair, and the simple fact of the matter is that pregnancy has more serious ramifications for women.  Young women need to accept that and deal with it.


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## Andrew2382

catzmeow said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, it takes two to play.  But, as a woman, you need to be damn careful whose sperm you let into your uterus.  Life isn't fair, and the simple fact of the matter is that pregnancy has more serious ramifications for women.  Young women need to accept that and deal with it.
Click to expand...


thats what you get for eating that apple


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## Skull Pilot

Amanda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
Click to expand...


That's crap Amanda and you know it. All a woman has to do is name the father and after a paternity test that man will be on the hook for child support.

How about this, BOTH parents have to pay for 100% of the care their children.  No freebies or do overs. 

If you want an abortion, you pay for it.
if you want to have the child, you either sign away your parental rights and give it up for adoption or you (both parents) pay. Period.


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## Skull Pilot

Modbert said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you just go back to back alley abortions and I'm highly doubting all those doctors who do abortions will all of a sudden stop when it can become highly profitable.
Click to expand...


Well that's just the risk you take no?
Actions are supposed to have consequences aren't they?


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## Modbert

Skull Pilot said:


> *That's crap Amanda and you know it. All a woman has to do is name the father and after a paternity test that man will be on the hook for child support.*
> 
> How about this, BOTH parents have to pay for 100% of the care their children.  No freebies or do overs.
> 
> If you want an abortion, you pay for it.
> if you want to have the child, you either sign away your parental rights and give it up for adoption or you (both parents) pay. Period.



What skull and others say is quite true:

The Y Files: "Roe v. Wade for men"

That's just one among many links explaining how for years men pay for child support for kids that aren't theirs as long as the mother names them and they cannot get a DNA test done. Even AFTER the DNA test is done and they are not named the father, much of the time they are still forced to pay for child support.


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## catzmeow

Modbert said:


> That's just one among many links explaining how for years men pay for child support for kids that aren't theirs as long as the mother names them and they cannot get a DNA test done. Even AFTER the DNA test is done and they are not named the father, much of the time they are still forced to pay for child support.



It really annoys me when women attempt to abdicate the responsibilities for their own sexual choices, thus turning themselves into dependent children.


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## Amanda

Modbert said:


> That's just one among many links explaining how for years men pay for child support for kids that aren't theirs as long as the mother names them and they cannot get a DNA test done. Even AFTER the DNA test is done and they are not named the father, much of the time they are still forced to pay for child support.



What's that logical fallacy that says if you can find even 1 exception you nullify the argument? I can never think of what that one is called.


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## strollingbones

oddly enough ...do you think sara palin will back off her stand on this..hell no...just cause it didnt work in her family ...doesnt mean she wont force it on yours..tis the way of the grand old party


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## Modbert

Amanda said:


> What's that logical fallacy that says if you can find even 1 exception you nullify the argument? I can never think of what that one is called.



Do you truly believe this is 1 exception to the rule? REALLY? 

Law.com - Man Told He Must Support Child He Didn't Father

Families Against Confiscatory Child Support

Plus the current draconian laws against guys:

Example #1:

Woman: I'm Pregnant

Man: So what do you want to do?

Woman: Have an abortion.

Man: But I want the kid.

Woman: Too bad *walks out*.

Example #2:

Woman: I'm Pregnant

Man: I really can't afford a kid, but what do you want to do?

Woman: Have it

Man: But I honestly can't afford it and I really don't want a kid at the moment.

Woman: Too bad, should of kept your legs closed. *Walks out*

Man: What about you? 

Example #3:

Judge: The court finds that you are not this girl's father, however despite the fact she lied to you throughout (even in a court of law to me) and you didn't distrust her enough to get a DNA test within the first year; you'll still have to pay child support for the next 18 years.

Man: What the hell? How is this justice?


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## strollingbones

okay robert follow me here...a man owns his sperm till he does what? ...say it with me...gives it to a woman...then she owns the sperm and can use it....moral of this little tale...keep your hands and sperm to yourself....condoms work great for this


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## strollingbones

plus the child would suffer if support was not paid.....the man will not suffer in the long run...a man who assumes the responsiblity for a child...does so...even if the child is not his...


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## Andrew2382

the woman doesn't share blame for not putting a condom on the mans dick as well?

plus you also get

woman- No need for that..I'm on the pill

6 weeks later

Woman- I'm Pregnant


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## strollingbones

men must take responsiblity for where they spread their sperm....i love how men pretend to be all weak...i couldnt resist blah blah blah...well think about 18 yrs plus of childsupport when you engage in unprotected sex


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## strollingbones

Andrew2382 said:


> the woman doesn't share blame for not putting a condom on the mans dick as well?
> 
> plus you also get
> 
> woman- No need for that..I'm on the pill
> 
> 6 weeks later
> 
> Woman- I'm Pregnant



andrew your dick...your sperm...take care of it....or no one else will


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## dilloduck

strollingbones said:


> men must take responsiblity for where they spread their sperm....i love how men pretend to be all weak...i couldnt resist blah blah blah...well think about 18 yrs plus of childsupport when you engage in unprotected sex



We'd be glad too-----you get pregnant. You give birth to it.


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## Modbert

strollingbones said:


> okay robert follow me here...a man owns his sperm till he does what? ...say it with me...gives it to a woman...then she owns the sperm and can use it....moral of this little tale...keep your hands and sperm to yourself....condoms work great for this



If the man does not own the sperm, then therefore he does not have to pay for anything happening to the sperm after.

It's like if somebody sells their house to somebody else, the new owner burns the house down but you want the old owner to pay for half the damages.


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## ABikerSailor

Stupid mother.......stupid daughter...........

Think Bristol will be on the Repugnican ticket in 2050?


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## strollingbones

o hell no....if you arent willing to practice safe sex and birth control..then you are just simply too fucking stupid for skin...are you really telling me...men cant control what they do with them sperm...are you that fucking weak?


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## dilloduck

strollingbones said:


> o hell no....if you arent willing to practice safe sex and birth control..then you are just simply too fucking stupid for skin...are you really telling me...men cant control what they do with them sperm...are you that fucking weak?



no weaker than the woman who can't keep her legs together


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## strollingbones

robert...we are not discussing a thing or an it as duckie put it..but a child who is the most innocent of all involved...get over it...control your damned sperm...simple as that...


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## strollingbones

dilloduck said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> o hell no....if you arent willing to practice safe sex and birth control..then you are just simply too fucking stupid for skin...are you really telling me...men cant control what they do with them sperm...are you that fucking weak?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no weaker than the woman who can't keep her legs together
Click to expand...


okay duckie...do you ....or any of you...abs, andy...can i call you andy? or bobby ...do yall have middle names...we in the south like two names...i digress...

or any of you simply admitting when any woman spreads her legs....you cannot resist?


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## dilloduck

strollingbones said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> o hell no....if you arent willing to practice safe sex and birth control..then you are just simply too fucking stupid for skin...are you really telling me...men cant control what they do with them sperm...are you that fucking weak?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no weaker than the woman who can't keep her legs together
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> okay duckie...do you ....or any of you...abs, andy...can i call you andy? or bobby ...do yall have middle names...we in the south like two names...i digress...
> 
> or any of you simply admitting when any woman spreads her legs....you cannot resist?
Click to expand...


she certainly isn't putting up a big fight


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## Andrew2382

strollingbones said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the woman doesn't share blame for not putting a condom on the mans dick as well?
> 
> plus you also get
> 
> woman- No need for that..I'm on the pill
> 
> 6 weeks later
> 
> Woman- I'm Pregnant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> andrew your dick...your sperm...take care of it....or no one else will
Click to expand...


sex with a condom is awful...all women should be forced to take the pill.

then again this all goes with my theory that men should get blow jobs 3 times a day....this would bring down pregnancy


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## Againsheila

strollingbones said:


> okay robert follow me here...a man owns his sperm till he does what? ...say it with me...gives it to a woman...then she owns the sperm and can use it....moral of this little tale...keep your hands and sperm to yourself....condoms work great for this



No, they don't.  Condoms are the worst form of birth control, next to the rhythm method, of course.  1/3 of all new aids patients say they got aids even though they used condoms.  Why do you think it would be any different for pregnancies?


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## ABikerSailor

Guys......let's take matters into our own hands and rub this problem out.

With enough grease, we can probably stretch it out for a bit........

Careful it doesn't go off premature though......you can put an eye out.


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## strollingbones

Againsheila said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> okay robert follow me here...a man owns his sperm till he does what? ...say it with me...gives it to a woman...then she owns the sperm and can use it....moral of this little tale...keep your hands and sperm to yourself....condoms work great for this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don't.  Condoms are the worst form of birth control, next to the rhythm method, of course.  1/3 of all new aids patients say they got aids even though they used condoms.  Why do you think it would be any different for pregnancies?
Click to expand...



condoms are a pretty effective method of birth control....and if they are getting aids they are not using latex condoms but natural ones..that are pourous and allow the aids virus to pass thru it...or they are buying condoms in gas stations or cafes that stock the "novel" condoms..glow in the dark etc...they should not be used for birth control nor control of std's.


Male condoms are 85-98% effective.


Birth Control - Male Condom


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## Andrew2382

women giving their men oral 

100% effective


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## catzmeow

strollingbones said:


> men must take responsiblity for where they spread their sperm....i love how men pretend to be all weak...i couldnt resist blah blah blah...well think about 18 yrs plus of childsupport when you engage in unprotected sex



Women: Don't want to get knocked up?  Don't have sex.


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## Againsheila

strollingbones said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> okay robert follow me here...a man owns his sperm till he does what? ...say it with me...gives it to a woman...then she owns the sperm and can use it....moral of this little tale...keep your hands and sperm to yourself....condoms work great for this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don't.  Condoms are the worst form of birth control, next to the rhythm method, of course.  1/3 of all new aids patients say they got aids even though they used condoms.  Why do you think it would be any different for pregnancies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> condoms are a pretty effective method of birth control....and if they are getting aids they are not using latex condoms but natural ones..that are pourous and allow the aids virus to pass thru it...or they are buying condoms in gas stations or cafes that stock the "novel" condoms..glow in the dark etc...they should not be used for birth control nor control of std's.
> 
> 
> Male condoms are 85-98% effective.
> 
> 
> Birth Control - Male Condom
Click to expand...


That means that up to 15% of the time, they fail.....


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## strollingbones

but the added benefit over other methods is the control of stds....what would the rate be with no condoms there againshelia...lets look up the aids infection rate without condoms..what is it?


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## Againsheila

strollingbones said:


> but the added benefit over other methods is the control of stds....what would the rate be with no condoms there againshelia...lets look up the aids infection rate without condoms..what is it?



You said condoms work great for preventing pregnancy.  They don't.  They are the least effective method next to the rhythm method.

Yes, they are better than nothing, but they are a long way from being great.


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## Andrew2382

There are much better methods I used to prevent prganncy when I was dating


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## Modbert

You know, I'm pretty sure women would not want to pay child support for children they didn't want but were forced to have because the man wanted it.

So why are women forcing men to pay child support for children they didn't want but the women went ahead anyway knowing they would be able to get child support from these men?


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## ABikerSailor

Good question.

Why IS it the man's responsibility, but the woman's choice?


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## Modbert

ABikerSailor said:


> Good question.
> 
> Why IS it the man's responsibility, but the woman's choice?



That's what I wonder.

What I really love is the women who lie not only to the guy but in a court of law to the judge on whether the kid that occurred in the marriage was really his.

So because the guy didn't distrust his wife enough to get a DNA test in the first year, he's stuck paying child support for whatever kids occurred in said marriage for the next 18 years.

And the court system actually helps the women do such a thing. By threatening to throw the guy in jail, take away his license among other things,etc if he doesn't pay.


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## Againsheila

Modbert said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good question.
> 
> Why IS it the man's responsibility, but the woman's choice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I wonder.
> 
> What I really love is the women who lie not only to the guy but in a court of law to the judge on whether the kid that occurred in the marriage was really his.
> 
> So because the guy didn't distrust his wife enough to get a DNA test in the first year, he's stuck paying child support for whatever kids occurred in said marriage for the next 18 years.
> 
> And the court system actually helps the women do such a thing. By threatening to throw the guy in jail, take away his license among other things,etc if he doesn't pay.
Click to expand...


If you have a child while married, it's your kid.  Even if the child is biologically someone else's the old laws make it the responsibility of the husband.

A few years ago, there was a case where a woman left her husband a lived with another man for a short time.  She got pregnant by him and then reconciled with her spouse.  The man wanted visiting rights to his child, he was even willing to pay child support but the woman and the husband refused.  The court ruled by law, the child belonged to the husband and the biological father had no rights.


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## ABikerSailor

Yeah......and then there's bitches like my ex wife and ex girlfriend.

My ex is trying to get me to keep paying past my sons 18th birthday, even though they are not going to school, and my ex girlfriend (who said she didn't want anything other than to keep track of me, so like an idiot, I gave her my ssn to keep track of me while I was in the military), who, after 8 years, decided to lower the boom on me and since she was re-doing her house, decided that THEN she wanted money.

Not cool.  And, the fucked up thing is that my ex gf was in the military and is also retired now. 

She coulda used her own cash instead of hooking into mine.........


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## Modbert

Againsheila said:


> *If you have a child while married, it's your kid.  Even if the child is biologically someone else's the old laws make it the responsibility of the husband.*
> 
> A few years ago, there was a case where a woman left her husband a lived with another man for a short time.  She got pregnant by him and then reconciled with her spouse.  The man wanted visiting rights to his child, he was even willing to pay child support but the woman and the husband refused.  The court ruled by law, the child belonged to the husband and the biological father had no rights.



Well the old laws are wrong, as is the situation you listed below. This is what I'm refering to when I say this is insane.


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## Againsheila

Modbert said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> *If you have a child while married, it's your kid.  Even if the child is biologically someone else's the old laws make it the responsibility of the husband.*
> 
> A few years ago, there was a case where a woman left her husband a lived with another man for a short time.  She got pregnant by him and then reconciled with her spouse.  The man wanted visiting rights to his child, he was even willing to pay child support but the woman and the husband refused.  The court ruled by law, the child belonged to the husband and the biological father had no rights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well the old laws are wrong, as is the situation you listed below. This is what I'm refering to when I say this is insane.
Click to expand...


I agree, but you have to realize the laws were made before dna tests were available, and they were made to protect the children.


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## Modbert

Againsheila said:


> I agree, but you have to realize the laws were made before dna tests were available, and they were made to protect the children.



Oh I understand this completely. I'm just finding it insane that these laws haven't been changed yet. Especially with the amount of people it affects.


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## catzmeow

Modbert said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good question.
> 
> Why IS it the man's responsibility, but the woman's choice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I wonder.
Click to expand...


Because it's a woman's world, baby.


----------



## Andrew2382

catzmeow said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good question.
> 
> Why IS it the man's responsibility, but the woman's choice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I wonder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it's a woman's world, baby.
Click to expand...



I disagree

It's a womans world up to the point of ejaculation...once the man has the baby batter off the brain he is able to think much more clearly.

it's scientific fact


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## catzmeow

Andrew2382 said:


> It's a womans world up to the point of ejaculation...once the man has the baby batter off the brain he is able to think much more clearly.



And that's when we have you by the short and curlies.


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## Amanda

Modbert said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's that logical fallacy that says if you can find even 1 exception you nullify the argument? I can never think of what that one is called.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you truly believe this is 1 exception to the rule? REALLY?
Click to expand...


I didn't say that so obviously I didn't mean that. You're using another logical fallacy now.

Let's talk about this honestly. Do _you_ really think that what you offered up happens the majority of the time? If you do that's fine. We'll have to agree to disagree until someone shows up with real statistics.


----------



## Againsheila

Modbert said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but you have to realize the laws were made before dna tests were available, and they were made to protect the children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I understand this completely. I'm just finding it insane that these laws haven't been changed yet. Especially with the amount of people it affects.
Click to expand...


I'm torn on the idea.  If you've been the father of a girl for 10 years and you are married to her mother and all of a sudden find out you aren't the father...well, it's not fair to the little girl to just refuse to support her or do anything for her.  On the other hand, if a baby is determined not to be yours, then I do believe the biological father should be on the hook for the child support payments.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good question.
> 
> Why IS it the man's responsibility, but the woman's choice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I wonder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it's a woman's world, baby.
Click to expand...

Women rule, men drool. Well, sometimes women drool, too. But you get the picture.


----------



## Andrew2382

catzmeow said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a womans world up to the point of ejaculation...once the man has the baby batter off the brain he is able to think much more clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's when we have you by the short and curlies.
Click to expand...



Yeah, not me tho...because I always remind myself that women enjoy sex just as much as men, so I throw the game right back at them


----------



## ABikerSailor

Question:  If storks bring white babies, and blackbirds bring black babies, what bird brings no babies?

Answer:  Swallows.

There's your birth control for ya!


----------



## Care4all

Andrew2382 said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the woman doesn't share blame for not putting a condom on the mans dick as well?
> 
> plus you also get
> 
> woman- No need for that..I'm on the pill
> 
> 6 weeks later
> 
> Woman- I'm Pregnant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> andrew your dick...your sperm...take care of it....or no one else will
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sex with a condom is awful...all women should be forced to take the pill.
> 
> then again this all goes with my theory that men should get blow jobs 3 times a day....this would bring down pregnancy
Click to expand...


Being on the pill is aweful....reduces your sex drive....makes the body think it is early in pregnancy, swelling of the boobs and other things that are also uncomfortable.

You know a couple of years ago they created and perfected a MAN'S birth control patch....amazing how this has not been promoted, probably because they still want boys using condoms so that they don't pass VD or aids as much....

But it is out there for you guys, a male birth control...why don't you all start taking that, and see how you feel....

i really would not have know how much the birth control pill reduced my pleasure until i went off it...it made me extremely naucious as well.....  I hate the pill....hate it hate it hate it....


----------



## dilloduck

Care4all said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> andrew your dick...your sperm...take care of it....or no one else will
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sex with a condom is awful...all women should be forced to take the pill.
> 
> then again this all goes with my theory that men should get blow jobs 3 times a day....this would bring down pregnancy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being on the pill is aweful....reduces your sex drive....makes the body think it is early in pregnancy, swelling of the boobs and other things that are also uncomfortable.
> 
> You know a couple of years ago they created and perfected a MAN'S birth control patch....amazing how this has not been promoted, probably because they still want boys using condoms so that they don't pass VD or aids as much....
> 
> But it is out there for you guys, a male birth control...why don't you all start taking that, and see how you feel....
> 
> i really would not have know how much the birth control pill reduced my pleasure until i went off it...it made me extremely naucious as well.....  I hate the pill....hate it hate it hate it....
Click to expand...


I guess you're stuck with the blow jobs then


----------



## Care4all

dilloduck said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> sex with a condom is awful...all women should be forced to take the pill.
> 
> then again this all goes with my theory that men should get blow jobs 3 times a day....this would bring down pregnancy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being on the pill is aweful....reduces your sex drive....makes the body think it is early in pregnancy, swelling of the boobs and other things that are also uncomfortable.
> 
> You know a couple of years ago they created and perfected a MAN'S birth control patch....amazing how this has not been promoted, probably because they still want boys using condoms so that they don't pass VD or aids as much....
> 
> But it is out there for you guys, a male birth control...why don't you all start taking that, and see how you feel....
> 
> i really would not have know how much the birth control pill reduced my pleasure until i went off it...it made me extremely naucious as well.....  I hate the pill....hate it hate it hate it....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess you're stuck with the blow jobs then
Click to expand...


not limited with anything, I got married and after a bit, we were ready to have kids....just didn't know that we would not be able to have them!


----------



## Care4all

i come from another era on the Pill though...they still were experimenting and i think we got something like 10 times the dose than what women take today...that could have been part of the problem and why i hated it....


----------



## Modbert

Againsheila said:


> I'm torn on the idea.  If you've been the father of a girl for 10 years and you are married to her mother and all of a sudden find out you aren't the father...well, it's not fair to the little girl to just refuse to support her or do anything for her.  On the other hand, if a baby is determined not to be yours, then I do believe the biological father should be on the hook for the child support payments.



To be honest, I think most guys after 10 years would see the kid as theirs and raise it as such. They would probably leave the mother, but they would still support the kid.


----------



## Agnapostate

I find it amusing that the Demoncats derive so much entertainment from disparaging Bristol Palin when Barry's mother likely conceived him when she was 17, to say nothing of Jimmy Carter's marriage to a 17 year old Rosalynn Carter. All components of every conventional political spectrum in the U.S., along with the always yapping punditry, find it necessary to vilify young parents.

That being said, Palin's correct in her assessment, though I wonder if James Dobson will cry now.



Amanda said:


> What's that logical fallacy that says if you can find even 1 exception you nullify the argument? I can never think of what that one is called.



Do you mean a counterexample?


----------



## Anguille

Modbert said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm torn on the idea.  If you've been the father of a girl for 10 years and you are married to her mother and all of a sudden find out you aren't the father...well, it's not fair to the little girl to just refuse to support her or do anything for her.  On the other hand, if a baby is determined not to be yours, then I do believe the biological father should be on the hook for the child support payments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, I think most guys after 10 years would see the kid as theirs and raise it as such. They would probably leave the mother, but they would still support the kid.
Click to expand...

I agree. Fatherhood, and motherhood too for that matter, mean much more than DNA and eggs and sperm.


----------



## Modbert

Anguille said:


> I agree. Fatherhood, and motherhood too for that matter, mean much more than DNA and eggs and sperm.



Exactly, 10 years of memories, and being a father wouldn't be taken away when you find out your wife was a lying whore.

You raised that little girl, you may of raised her not knowing she was your blood but she is the closest thing to it. Especially since she considers you and not some random man her dad.

Especially since it was you who held her when she cried, you who taught her how to do things a dad teaches his daughter, taking her to the father/daughter school dances, etc. Not some random guy who wouldn't even be involved in his daughter's life.


----------



## Amanda

Agnapostate said:


> I find it amusing that the Demoncats derive so much entertainment from disparaging Bristol Palin when Barry's mother likely conceived him when she was 17, to say nothing of Jimmy Carter's marriage to a 17 year old Rosalynn Carter. All components of every conventional political spectrum in the U.S., along with the always yapping punditry, find it necessary to vilify young parents.


Give it to 'em!



Agnapostate said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's that logical fallacy that says if you can find even 1 exception you nullify the argument? I can never think of what that one is called.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean a counterexample?
Click to expand...


Fuck if I know, I just read it in a book and can't remember the names of any of them. They should all be named after characters in the Wizard of Oz. Yes, I'm in the vodka already, Sue me.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> Agnapostate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it amusing that the Demoncats derive so much entertainment from disparaging Bristol Palin when Barry's mother likely conceived him when she was 17, to say nothing of Jimmy Carter's marriage to a 17 year old Rosalynn Carter. All components of every conventional political spectrum in the U.S., along with the always yapping punditry, find it necessary to vilify young parents.
> 
> 
> 
> Give it to 'em!
> 
> 
> 
> Agnapostate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's that logical fallacy that says if you can find even 1 exception you nullify the argument? I can never think of what that one is called.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you mean a counterexample?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fuck if I know, I just read it in a book and can't remember the names of any of them. They should all be named after characters in the Wizard of Oz. Yes, I'm in the vodka already, Sue me.
Click to expand...


Is your ex boyfriend gonna beat the shit out of us ?


----------



## Sky Dancer

What's got you on the sauce all of a sudden?


----------



## Amanda

dilloduck said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agnapostate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it amusing that the Demoncats derive so much entertainment from disparaging Bristol Palin when Barry's mother likely conceived him when she was 17, to say nothing of Jimmy Carter's marriage to a 17 year old Rosalynn Carter. All components of every conventional political spectrum in the U.S., along with the always yapping punditry, find it necessary to vilify young parents.
> 
> 
> 
> Give it to 'em!
> 
> 
> 
> Agnapostate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean a counterexample?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fuck if I know, I just read it in a book and can't remember the names of any of them. They should all be named after characters in the Wizard of Oz. Yes, I'm in the vodka already, Sue me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is your ex boyfriend gonna beat the shit out of us ?
Click to expand...


No, but I'll get the next one up to speed and he'll represent for me.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> What's got you on the sauce all of a sudden?



I got dumped. Maybe it was cos I wouldn't put out. I dunno, he gave typical "it's not you, it's me" kinda stuff. That's ok tho, like the Phoenix I have risen from the ashes... I just can't walk straight. I'll clean up when this bottle is gone, but I'm committed to finishing it to end the era. And I keep my promises... as you know.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Oh well.  Some day your prince will come.

Maybe you should go to Christian singles club, where you can remain abstinent until you're married.


----------



## xsited1

This thread makes me wonder if there are any virgins on here.  Anyone?  Maybe I should start a new thread.  Seems a little personal, though.


----------



## Sky Dancer

xsited1 said:


> This thread makes me wonder if there are any virgins on here.  Anyone?  Maybe I should start a new thread.  Seems a little personal, though.



Ask Sunni Man to start a 72 virgins thread.  It's a big bennie for suicide bombers.  I just wonder who in their right mind wants to cause a woman pain 72 times to get to heaven?


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> Oh well.  Some day your prince will come.
> 
> Maybe you should go to Christian singles club, where you can remain abstinent until you're married.



Sky, don't you know that I'm not a really traditional Christian? I was raised Baptist but a lot of my ideas about God are closer to Eastern mysticism. 

Your avi is hot in a fascist sort of way...  Where do you find nazi porn?


----------



## Sky Dancer

What make you think it's porn of any kind?   If it's porn, then surely I'll be asked to remove it.

You've stated you're a Christian, which can mean anything.   I thought you favored abstinence before marriage.  I don't know what your religious beliefs are.


----------



## xsited1

Sky Dancer said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread makes me wonder if there are any virgins on here.  Anyone?  Maybe I should start a new thread.  Seems a little personal, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ask Sunni Man to start a 72 virgins thread.  It's a big bennie for suicide bombers.  I just wonder who in their right mind wants to cause a woman pain 72 times to get to heaven?
Click to expand...


How do you know they're women?


----------



## Sky Dancer

xsited1 said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread makes me wonder if there are any virgins on here.  Anyone?  Maybe I should start a new thread.  Seems a little personal, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ask Sunni Man to start a 72 virgins thread.  It's a big bennie for suicide bombers.  I just wonder who in their right mind wants to cause a woman pain 72 times to get to heaven?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know they're women?
Click to expand...



I don't.  In Sunni' case, he may be pining for 72 virginal men to rape.


----------



## Sky Dancer

What I don't see in any of Amanda's photos is a happy face.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> It's not Nazi porn.  You've stated you're a Christian, which can mean anything.   I thought you favored abstinence before marriage.  I don't know what your beliefs are.



It's not Nazi porn? Where did it come from? I love Nazi uniforms.  I have to admit I have a weakness for anything Hugo Boss, even if a woman is wearing it. You know if we had talked more I would have come out about my lesbian experiences. I'm not going to tell these animals, I'd never hear the end of how chick on chick action is the action, but I would have told you, because I think it would have meant something. I truly wanted a sort of intimacy with you that I thought you would have "got". I don't think I betrayed a trust. 

...

I don't favor abstinence before marriage. I favor abstinence for me right now... but I'm re -thinking that. I'm starting to really, really want some cock. 

I've stated what I would call glimpses of my belief system more than once. I think God is unconditional love and that the more we can be that way the closer we become to God. I have never stopped loving you.


----------



## Sky Dancer

You wanted to tell me about your lesbians experiences?  What stopped you?  I thought it was clear after ten or twelve pms that you wanted me to tell my experiences.

The last thing in the world I need is for me as a middle aged woman to be discussing lesbian sex with a teenager--especially one who take private conversations and then makes them everyone else's business on a forum.  All some folks here think is that all gays are pedophiles and predators.  I'm not.  I'm not attracted to women younger than 30 If a woman hasn't even had a saturn return she hasn't cleared out her parental conditioning and found her own self yet.  That's my opinion.  NO big deal.

Thank you intuition.  This is an about face from what you've previously said.

Maybe you're bi, Amanda.  I don't know.  I considered myself bi at your age.

You're right.  There's alot I don't know about you.  I'm sorry if I'm overly cautious with young people who have questions.  What older lesbians and gay men get when they share information is a judgment that we're recruiting or something.

It's a form of internalized oppression.

I think it's best I take any questions you have publically with the whole world watching, for your protection and mine.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Amanda said:


> I bet Alaska is just as bad as Kansas was for being a boring place to grow up. But seriously if you're going to do it you both need to be taking measures to prevent pregnancy... unless of course you want to have a baby.



Amanda is that you in your avitar?...if it is,it must kinda hard to talk about abstaining with you.....


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> You wanted to tell me about your lesbians experiences?  What stopped you?  I thought it was clear after ten or twelve pms that you wanted me to tell my experiences.
> 
> The last thing in the world I need is for me as a middle aged woman to be discussing lesbian sex with a teenager--especially one who take private conversations and then makes them everyone else's business on a forum.  All some folks here think is that all gays are pedophiles and predators.  I'm not.  I'm not attracted to women younger than 30 If a woman hasn't even had a saturn return she hasn't cleared out her parental conditioning and found her own self yet.  That's my opinion.  NO big deal.
> 
> Thank you intuition.  This is an about face from what you've previously said.
> 
> Maybe you're bi, Amanda.  I don't know.  I considered myself bi at your age.



I didn't *want* to tell you, I thought you would understand (maybe) and have some insight (hopefully). I thought you might alleviate my guilt. I really, really don't think I'm bi. I think I do stupid things when I drink too much, I think we can both agree on that.

No one knows what of what I've said is a quote or just an offhand example. I stand by what I said tho, I don't think you were fair to me at all and I was done with even trying. I don't think the tactics you used in subsequent PMs were very nice or fair either... but I kept my word and didn't PM you again. We could be having this conversation privately, but you've decided to make it public. Isn't that just as much a violation of trust as you say I've made?

And on the predators/pedophiles thing you know I'm a stand up person. I could have fanned certain fires and I didn't. Why? Because I'm not a bitch. 

I would like us to be friends Sky, I've never done anything with the intention to hurt you. I don't know why you think we should be enemies, it's not something I've ever wanted. I've extended you the olive branch more than once and if you'll be my friend I will accept your friendship. I don't hold grudges and I don't want to hurt anyone.


----------



## Harry Dresden

strollingbones said:


> men must take responsiblity for where they spread their sperm....i love how men pretend to be all weak...i couldnt resist blah blah blah.




well......we are....


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You wanted to tell me about your lesbians experiences?  What stopped you?  I thought it was clear after ten or twelve pms that you wanted me to tell my experiences.
> 
> The last thing in the world I need is for me as a middle aged woman to be discussing lesbian sex with a teenager--especially one who take private conversations and then makes them everyone else's business on a forum.  All some folks here think is that all gays are pedophiles and predators.  I'm not.  I'm not attracted to women younger than 30 If a woman hasn't even had a saturn return she hasn't cleared out her parental conditioning and found her own self yet.  That's my opinion.  NO big deal.
> 
> Thank you intuition.  This is an about face from what you've previously said.
> 
> Maybe you're bi, Amanda.  I don't know.  I considered myself bi at your age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't *want* to tell you, I thought you would understand (maybe) and have some insight (hopefully). I thought you might alleviate my guilt. I really, really don't think I'm bi. I think I do stupid things when I drink too much, I think we can both agree on that.
> 
> No one knows what of what I've said is a quote or just an offhand example. I stand by what I said tho, I don't think you were fair to me at all and I was done with even trying. I don't think the tactics you used in subsequent PMs were very nice or fair either... but I kept my word and didn't PM you again. We could be having this conversation privately, but you've decided to make it public. Isn't that just as much a violation of trust as you say I've made?
> 
> And on the predators/pedophiles thing you know I'm a stand up person. I could have fanned certain fires and I didn't. Why? Because I'm not a bitch.
> 
> I would like us to be friends Sky, I've never done anything with the intention to hurt you. I don't know why you think we should be enemies, it's not something I've ever wanted. I've extended you the olive branch more than once and if you'll be my friend I will accept your friendship. I don't hold grudges and I don't want to hurt anyone.
Click to expand...


damn---are you always a sappy drunk ?


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> What I don't see in any of Amanda's photos is a happy face.



Life hasn't been very happy lately. And I look like a complete moron when I smile. I try to shoot for sultry... I don't think I pull it off but I never hear the boys complain.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Ok let's just chalk this up to a rough start and let by gones be by gones.  If you want to pm me again sometime with a question, an experience you want to share or anything else I'm happy to answer that.

You may have noticed a few people around here have axes to grind, and used pms to do it.  

I'm sorry that I didn't trust where you were coming from.  The more you share about yourself, the easier it is to meet you there.

I don't consider us enemies--we just have a generation gap.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't see in any of Amanda's photos is a happy face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Life hasn't been very happy lately. And I look like a complete moron when I smile. I try to shoot for sultry... I don't think I pull it off but I never hear the boys complain.
Click to expand...


  Liar--I bitched once about a grouchy avatar.


----------



## Amanda

dilloduck said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You wanted to tell me about your lesbians experiences?  What stopped you?  I thought it was clear after ten or twelve pms that you wanted me to tell my experiences.
> 
> The last thing in the world I need is for me as a middle aged woman to be discussing lesbian sex with a teenager--especially one who take private conversations and then makes them everyone else's business on a forum.  All some folks here think is that all gays are pedophiles and predators.  I'm not.  I'm not attracted to women younger than 30 If a woman hasn't even had a saturn return she hasn't cleared out her parental conditioning and found her own self yet.  That's my opinion.  NO big deal.
> 
> Thank you intuition.  This is an about face from what you've previously said.
> 
> Maybe you're bi, Amanda.  I don't know.  I considered myself bi at your age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't *want* to tell you, I thought you would understand (maybe) and have some insight (hopefully). I thought you might alleviate my guilt. I really, really don't think I'm bi. I think I do stupid things when I drink too much, I think we can both agree on that.
> 
> No one knows what of what I've said is a quote or just an offhand example. I stand by what I said tho, I don't think you were fair to me at all and I was done with even trying. I don't think the tactics you used in subsequent PMs were very nice or fair either... but I kept my word and didn't PM you again. We could be having this conversation privately, but you've decided to make it public. Isn't that just as much a violation of trust as you say I've made?
> 
> And on the predators/pedophiles thing you know I'm a stand up person. I could have fanned certain fires and I didn't. Why? Because I'm not a bitch.
> 
> I would like us to be friends Sky, I've never done anything with the intention to hurt you. I don't know why you think we should be enemies, it's not something I've ever wanted. I've extended you the olive branch more than once and if you'll be my friend I will accept your friendship. I don't hold grudges and I don't want to hurt anyone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> damn---are you always a sappy drunk ?
Click to expand...


Yeah, pretty much.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> Ok let's just chalk this up to a rough start and let by gones be by gones.  If you want to pm me again sometime with a question, an experience you want to share or anything else I'm happy to answer that.
> 
> You may have noticed a few people around here have axes to grind, and used pms to do it.
> 
> I'm sorry that I didn't trust where you were coming from.  The more you share about yourself, the easier it is to meet you there.
> 
> I don't consider us enemies--we just have a generation gap.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't *want* to tell you, I thought you would understand (maybe) and have some insight (hopefully). I thought you might alleviate my guilt. I really, really don't think I'm bi. I think I do stupid things when I drink too much, I think we can both agree on that.
> 
> No one knows what of what I've said is a quote or just an offhand example. I stand by what I said tho, I don't think you were fair to me at all and I was done with even trying. I don't think the tactics you used in subsequent PMs were very nice or fair either... but I kept my word and didn't PM you again. We could be having this conversation privately, but you've decided to make it public. Isn't that just as much a violation of trust as you say I've made?
> 
> And on the predators/pedophiles thing you know I'm a stand up person. I could have fanned certain fires and I didn't. Why? Because I'm not a bitch.
> 
> I would like us to be friends Sky, I've never done anything with the intention to hurt you. I don't know why you think we should be enemies, it's not something I've ever wanted. I've extended you the olive branch more than once and if you'll be my friend I will accept your friendship. I don't hold grudges and I don't want to hurt anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> damn---are you always a sappy drunk ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, pretty much.
Click to expand...


oh yuck----you ain't gonna cry too are ya ?


----------



## jillian

Amanda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
Click to expand...


nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.


----------



## dilloduck

jillian said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
Click to expand...


hey---I 'd take care of a harlot's kid !


----------



## Sky Dancer

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't see in any of Amanda's photos is a happy face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Life hasn't been very happy lately. And I look like a complete moron when I smile. I try to shoot for sultry... I don't think I pull it off but I never hear the boys complain.
Click to expand...


I hear you.  Life isn't always happy.   When I met my wife, (yes, we just got legally married in July just before Prop 8 shut it down)  I thought she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever met.  I still think of her that way.  It was her eyes that drew me in, very clear and mischievous.

She's the naughtiest, funniest, brightest and most talented woman I've met.  I'm so lucky she picked me--she picked ME.  She knew from the moment we met--I was the one.

I was a bit denser and more damaged.  She did a complete background check on me and I passed with flying colors.

We met at a Buddhist meditation retreat.  We sat across from each other in the library.  She looked up at me and said, "Do I know you?" with this big grin on her face.  I looked at her and said, "you look familiar, have we met before?"

She said, yes.  I met you at BPD, but you were mighty busy.  I was with Dk she said.  I said oh yeah--out of context.  (BPD was a networking organization for gay and lesbian professional women).  I'd noticed her, but I had about three working dramas going on with other women at that meeting.

Then the retreat started, and you don't talk or even look at each other.  It's quite a beautiful way to open the heart, you aren't your story, you're just another human being, sitting, walking, eating, praying and resting in silent awareness.

At the end of the retreat she asked me my name and my phone number.  Then she did her background check and called me for a date on Valentine's Day.  I was socially a busy gal with dates and I put her off for two weeks.

The first date was special, but I had an old girlfriend I had to straighten things out with.  The rest unfolded quickly.

I've always been difficult about committment and I really challenged her in the early years.  We are very happy with each other and I know I will continue to spend the rest of my life with her.

I enjoy looking at beautiful women as much as the next one--but I've no interest in straying--not even a bit.

This is the most complex interesting woman I've ever met.


----------



## Amanda

dilloduck said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> damn---are you always a sappy drunk ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, pretty much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> oh yuck----you ain't gonna cry too are ya ?
Click to expand...


Funny you should ask... I've already been there tonight.


----------



## Harry Dresden

look bottom line,if you want to abstain from sex....just get married....before long....its like the monastery....


----------



## Sky Dancer

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, pretty much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh yuck----you ain't gonna cry too are ya ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny you should ask... I've already been there tonight.
Click to expand...


Nothing wrong with a good cry.  I've had a good one today myself and I wasn't even loaded.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, pretty much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh yuck----you ain't gonna cry too are ya ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny you should ask... I've already been there tonight.
Click to expand...


crap---well I hope you got it all out of your system


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't see in any of Amanda's photos is a happy face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Life hasn't been very happy lately. And I look like a complete moron when I smile. I try to shoot for sultry... I don't think I pull it off but I never hear the boys complain.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hear you.  Life isn't always happy.   When I met my wife, (yes, we just got legally married in July just before Prop 8 shut it down)  I thought she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever met.  I still think of her that way.  It was her eyes that drew me in, very clear and mischievous.
> 
> She's the naughtiest, funniest, brightest and most talented woman I've met.  I'm so lucky she picked me--she picked ME.  She knew from the moment we met--I was the one.
> 
> I was a bit denser and more damaged.  She did a complete background check on me and I passed with flying colors.
> 
> We met at a Buddhist meditation retreat.  We sat across from each other in the library.  She looked up at me and said, "Do I know you?" with this big grin on her face.  I looked at her and said, "you look familiar, have we met before?"
> 
> She said, yes.  I met you at BPD, but you were mighty busy.  I was with Dk she said.  I said oh yeah--out of context.  (BPD was a networking organization for gay and lesbian professional women).  I'd noticed her, but I had about three working dramas going on with other women at that meeting.
> 
> Then the retreat started, and you don't talk or even look at each other.  It's quite a beautiful way to open the heart, you aren't your story, you're just another human being, sitting, walking, eating, praying and resting in silent awareness.
> 
> At the end of the retreat she asked me my name and my phone number.  Then she did her background check and called me for a date on Valentine's Day.  I was socially a busy gal with dates and I put her off for two weeks.
> 
> The first date was special, but I had an old girlfriend I had to straighten things out with.  The rest unfolded quickly.
> 
> I've always been difficult about committment and I really challenged her in the early years.  We are very happy with each other and I know I will continue to spend the rest of my life with her.
> 
> I enjoy looking at beautiful women as much as the next one--but I've no interest in straying--not even a bit.
> 
> This is the most complex interesting woman I've ever met.
Click to expand...


That was really beautiful  Sky, thank you for sharing with us. Love is the most wonderful thing we can experience, I'm glad you found your 'one'.


----------



## Sky Dancer

I hope your heart continues to open and be tender.  It takes courage to love.  No matter who you love, you will lose that someone one way or another.  Even a soul mate is lost to death.  One of you usually dies before the other.

I'ts a case of letting yourself feel it, without letting yourself wallow in it. Not easy to do.  I had many disappointing love affairs before finding my true love.

I don't regret any of them.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't see in any of Amanda's photos is a happy face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Life hasn't been very happy lately. And I look like a complete moron when I smile. I try to shoot for sultry... I don't think I pull it off but I never hear the boys complain.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hear you.  Life isn't always happy.   When I met my wife, (yes, we just got legally married in July just before Prop 8 shut it down)  I thought she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever met.  I still think of her that way.  It was her eyes that drew me in, very clear and mischievous.
> 
> She's the naughtiest, funniest, brightest and most talented woman I've met.  I'm so lucky she picked me--she picked ME.  She knew from the moment we met--I was the one.
> 
> I was a bit denser and more damaged.  She did a complete background check on me and I passed with flying colors.
> 
> We met at a Buddhist meditation retreat.  We sat across from each other in the library.  She looked up at me and said, "Do I know you?" with this big grin on her face.  I looked at her and said, "you look familiar, have we met before?"
> 
> She said, yes.  I met you at BPD, but you were mighty busy.  I was with Dk she said.  I said oh yeah--out of context.  (BPD was a networking organization for gay and lesbian professional women).  I'd noticed her, but I had about three working dramas going on with other women at that meeting.
> 
> Then the retreat started, and you don't talk or even look at each other.  It's quite a beautiful way to open the heart, you aren't your story, you're just another human being, sitting, walking, eating, praying and resting in silent awareness.
> 
> At the end of the retreat she asked me my name and my phone number.  Then she did her background check and called me for a date on Valentine's Day.  I was socially a busy gal with dates and I put her off for two weeks.
> 
> The first date was special, but I had an old girlfriend I had to straighten things out with.  The rest unfolded quickly.
> 
> I've always been difficult about committment and I really challenged her in the early years.  We are very happy with each other and I know I will continue to spend the rest of my life with her.
> 
> I enjoy looking at beautiful women as much as the next one--but I've no interest in straying--not even a bit.
> 
> This is the most complex interesting woman I've ever met.
Click to expand...


oh shit---now I'm gonna cry too.


----------



## Amanda

dilloduck said:


> oh shit---now I'm gonna cry too.



Let them flow Duck, there is no shame in having feelings and being real.


----------



## del

i'm definitely gonna puke if the insulin shock doesn't kill me first.

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


----------



## Amanda

Harry Dresden said:


> look bottom line,if you want to abstain from sex....just get married....before long....its like the monastery....



Don't be such a cynic Harry.


----------



## Sky Dancer

That's funny dillo--

If you're not poking fun, it's one of the sweetest things you've ever said.

I've fallen in love with three men, but I was only lovers with one of them.  One was married, so we didn't pursue our feelings--I was the most in love with him.  The other was a high school sweetheart.  Lots of first, second and third base, but no home run.  I was a boy I was with in college.  I had to dare myself to do it--at age 23, I was old in those days to be a virgin.

He couldn't talk and it drove me crazy.

I love men.  I find a number of them attractive.  If I wasn't married, I might consider being with a man.  But it's just not in my cards.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh shit---now I'm gonna cry too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let them flow Duck, there is no shame in having feelings and being real.
Click to expand...


hmmmm   i ain't crying around no half naked drunk chick. That's just wrong


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> i'm definitely gonna puke if the insulin shock doesn't kill me first.
> 
> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww



That figures.  If you drop your aversion and hatred you'd feel better.  Never mind, call Dis in.  She'll help you spew some crap.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> That's funny dillo--
> 
> If you're not polng fun, it's one of the sweetest things you've ever said.
> 
> I've fallen in love with three men, but I was only lovers with one of them.  One was married, so we didn't pursue our feelings--I was the most in love with him.  The other was a high school sweetheart.  Lots of first, second and third base, but no home run.  I was a boy I was with in college.  I had to dare myself to do it--at age 23, I was old in those days to be a virgin.
> 
> He couldn't talk and it drove me crazy.
> 
> I love men.  I find a number of them attractive.  If I wasn't married, I might consider being with a man.  But it's just not in my cards.



naturally that makes zero sense to me but that's to be expected huh?


----------



## dilloduck

del said:


> i'm definitely gonna puke if the insulin shock doesn't kill me first.
> 
> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww



Don't puke on plants---KK says it kills em !


----------



## Sky Dancer

dilloduck said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's funny dillo--
> 
> If you're not polng fun, it's one of the sweetest things you've ever said.
> 
> I've fallen in love with three men, but I was only lovers with one of them.  One was married, so we didn't pursue our feelings--I was the most in love with him.  The other was a high school sweetheart.  Lots of first, second and third base, but no home run.  I was a boy I was with in college.  I had to dare myself to do it--at age 23, I was old in those days to be a virgin.
> 
> He couldn't talk and it drove me crazy.
> 
> I love men.  I find a number of them attractive.  If I wasn't married, I might consider being with a man.  But it's just not in my cards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> naturally that makes zero sense to me but that's to be expected huh?
Click to expand...


Never mind.  You don't recognize an olive branch, do you?


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's funny dillo--
> 
> If you're not polng fun, it's one of the sweetest things you've ever said.
> 
> I've fallen in love with three men, but I was only lovers with one of them.  One was married, so we didn't pursue our feelings--I was the most in love with him.  The other was a high school sweetheart.  Lots of first, second and third base, but no home run.  I was a boy I was with in college.  I had to dare myself to do it--at age 23, I was old in those days to be a virgin.
> 
> He couldn't talk and it drove me crazy.
> 
> I love men.  I find a number of them attractive.  If I wasn't married, I might consider being with a man.  But it's just not in my cards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> naturally that makes zero sense to me but that's to be expected huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never mind.  You don't recognize an olive branch, do you?
Click to expand...


thinking everyone is gonna "get" what you "get" is a bit presumptuous don't you think ?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Take something for that nausea, Del.  Maybe it's the shock of actually talking to a lesbian without using a slur that's affecting your stomache.


----------



## Sky Dancer

My advice to you Amanda.  Don't beat yourself up for experimenting--nor worry about your identity.  You're probably heterosexual.  

I'm the worst person at counseling anyone about sexual identity issues.  My own experience is that sexuality is on a continuum and is a lot less solid that most people consider.


----------



## del

dilloduck said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> i'm definitely gonna puke if the insulin shock doesn't kill me first.
> 
> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't puke on plants---KK says it kills em !
Click to expand...


that's okay, i'm a big fan of global warming, the more CO2, the better.


----------



## RodISHI

Amanda said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> look bottom line,if you want to abstain from sex....just get married....before long....its like the monastery....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be such a cynic Harry.
Click to expand...

Poor Harry no sympathy here.


----------



## dilloduck

del said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> i'm definitely gonna puke if the insulin shock doesn't kill me first.
> 
> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't puke on plants---KK says it kills em !
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> that's okay, i'm a big fan of global warming, the more CO2, the better.
Click to expand...


it's cool----didn't want to have to feel guilty afterwords--


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> i'm definitely gonna puke if the insulin shock doesn't kill me first.
> 
> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That figures.  If you drop your aversion and hatred you'd feel better.  Never mind, call Dis in.  She'll help you spew some crap.
Click to expand...


aversion to what, world class asshats?

i don't need any help to handle a basketcase like you, hon.

go ahead, take your best shot.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> Take something for that nausea, Del.  Maybe it's the shock of actually talking to a lesbian without using a slur that's affecting your stomache.



are you this stupid in real life?


----------



## dilloduck

RodISHI said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> look bottom line,if you want to abstain from sex....just get married....before long....its like the monastery....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be such a cynic Harry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Poor Harry no sympathy here.
Click to expand...


yo Harry---there's a 'cheating on your spouse' thread you might wanna check into !


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take something for that nausea, Del.  Maybe it's the shock of actually talking to a lesbian without using a slur that's affecting your stomache.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> are you this stupid in real life?
Click to expand...


Are you this consistently hateful?


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take something for that nausea, Del.  Maybe it's the shock of actually talking to a lesbian without using a slur that's affecting your stomache.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> are you this stupid in real life?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you this consistently hateful?
Click to expand...


do you *ever* not whine?


----------



## RodISHI

xsited1 said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread makes me wonder if there are any virgins on here.  Anyone?  Maybe I should start a new thread.  Seems a little personal, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ask Sunni Man to start a 72 virgins thread.  It's a big bennie for suicide bombers.  I just wonder who in their right mind wants to cause a woman pain 72 times to get to heaven?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know they're women?
Click to expand...




That is a good question...


 And how do they know the mindset those virgins may have towards them?


----------



## Anguille

boys!!!



_shrug*_


----------



## Anguille




----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> boys!!!
> 
> 
> 
> _shrug*_



oh look--the modesty goddess


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> boys!!!
> 
> 
> 
> _shrug*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh look--the modesty goddess
Click to expand...


I'd still let you in the clubhouse, dillo. You're only half bad for a boy.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> boys!!!
> 
> 
> 
> _shrug*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh look--the modesty goddess
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd still let you in the clubhouse, dillo. You're only half bad for a boy.
Click to expand...


now which clubhouse is this ?  You've got so many.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> are you this stupid in real life?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you this consistently hateful?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> do you *ever* not whine?
Click to expand...


Do you ever talk to a poster without an insult?  I don't have to like it.  I'll say so when I don't.  If you want to call that 'whining', knock yourself out.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you this consistently hateful?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do you *ever* not whine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you ever talk to a poster without an insult?  I don't have to like it.  I'll say so when I don't.  If you want to call that 'whining', knock yourself out.
Click to expand...


yes, i do. i'm just not a big fan of professional victims.

sue me.


----------



## Sky Dancer

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh look--the modesty goddess
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd still let you in the clubhouse, dillo. You're only half bad for a boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> now which clubhouse is this ?  You've got so many.
Click to expand...


I have a suggestion, anguille.


----------



## Anguille

Well, call me a sentimental fool  but I thought that was a nice exchange between Sky and Amanda. And even what dillo had to say. Before he got worried what the other guys would say.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


>



oh no---not another one
now why in the hell do I wanna be in THAT club ?


----------



## alan1

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's got you on the sauce all of a sudden?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got dumped. Maybe it was cos I wouldn't put out. I dunno, he gave typical "it's not you, it's me" kinda stuff. That's ok tho, like the Phoenix I have risen from the ashes... I just can't walk straight. *I'll clean up when this bottle is gone*, but I'm committed to finishing it to end the era. And I keep my promises... as you know.
Click to expand...

It's not really a good old fashioned self-pity drinking binge unless you stay drunk for a month.


----------



## Anguille

Okay, I'm outta here. Before the fuzzy feeling turns to brillo pads.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> do you *ever* not whine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you ever talk to a poster without an insult?  I don't have to like it.  I'll say so when I don't.  If you want to call that 'whining', knock yourself out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes, i do. i'm just not a big fan of professional victims.
> 
> sue me.
Click to expand...


Naw.  You're not worth it.  Calling me a 'rag muncher' isn't worthy of a lawsuit.  It just demonstrate that when you lose your temper with lesbians you tend to use angry slurs.  Your homophobia shows.


----------



## Modbert

del said:


> yes, i do. i'm just not a big fan of professional victims.
> 
> sue me.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> Well, call me a sentimental fool  but I thought that was a nice exchange between Sky and Amanda. And even what dillo had to say. Before he got worried what the other guys would say.



GUYS read this shit ???


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you ever talk to a poster without an insult?  I don't have to like it.  I'll say so when I don't.  If you want to call that 'whining', knock yourself out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, i do. i'm just not a big fan of professional victims.
> 
> sue me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Naw.  You're not worth it.  Calling me a 'rag muncher' isn't worthy of a lawsuit.  It just demonstrate that when you lose your temper with lesbians you tend to use angry slurs.  Your homophobia shows.
Click to expand...


trt to be accurate. i called you a *rug*muncher-you know, like a carpetgobbler. 
i don't lose my temper, but you keep whining about it if it makes you feel better. i'm laughing at you, you buffoon, and the fact that you're gay means less than nothing to me. is this starting to sink in yet?


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes, i do. i'm just not a big fan of professional victims.
> 
> sue me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.  You're not worth it.  Calling me a 'rug muncher' isn't worthy of a lawsuit.  It just demonstrate that when you lose your temper with lesbians you tend to use angry slurs.  Your homophobia shows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> trt to be accurate. i called you a *rug*muncher-you know, like a carpetgobbler.
> i don't lose my temper, but you keep whining about it if it makes you feel better. i'm laughing at you, you buffoon, and *the fact that your gay menas less than nothing to me*. is this starting to sink in yet?
Click to expand...


Yeah, it means nothing--that's because you're a liar. 

*rug muncher*:

1. A person who performs cunninlingus; a cunnilinctor . See cunnilinctor or cunnilinctrice for synonyms. 
2. *Disparaging appellation for a lesbian . *



that why you had to forward my pms to all your friends for a laugh.  Is that starting to sink in yet?


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.  You're not worth it.  Calling me a 'rug muncher' isn't worthy of a lawsuit.  It just demonstrate that when you lose your temper with lesbians you tend to use angry slurs.  Your homophobia shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trt to be accurate. i called you a *rug*muncher-you know, like a carpetgobbler.
> i don't lose my temper, but you keep whining about it if it makes you feel better. i'm laughing at you, you buffoon, and *the fact that your gay menas less than nothing to me*. is this starting to sink in yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, it means nothing--that why you had to forward my pms to all your friends for a laugh.  Is that starting to sink in yet?
Click to expand...


you mean someone as hateful as me has friends? oh, the horror.


----------



## Modbert

And for good measure, random song time:

[youtube]m5LX16zia2k[/youtube]


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.  You're not worth it.  Calling me a 'rug muncher' isn't worthy of a lawsuit.  It just demonstrate that when you lose your temper with lesbians you tend to use angry slurs.  Your homophobia shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trt to be accurate. i called you a *rug*muncher-you know, like a carpetgobbler.
> i don't lose my temper, but you keep whining about it if it makes you feel better. i'm laughing at you, you buffoon, and *the fact that your gay menas less than nothing to me*. is this starting to sink in yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, it means nothing--that's because you're a liar.
> 
> rug muncher:
> 
> 1. A person who performs cunninlingus; a cunnilinctor . See cunnilinctor or cunnilinctrice for synonyms.
> 2. *Disparaging appellation for a lesbian . *
> 
> 
> 
> that why you had to forward my pms to all your friends for a laugh.  Is that starting to sink in yet?
Click to expand...


again, you fail to grasp the point.

it means nothing to me. you annoy me long enough, and yea, i'm likely to disparage your lesbian ass, but if you think i care enough about you to hate you, you're further out of touch than i could even begin to imagine.

are you starting to get it, my fine lesbyterian?


----------



## Sky Dancer

I thought you and I got along ok.  That's why I pm'ed you.  I thought we'd come to some understanding privately.

Then I learned you were forwarding my pms to Dis so that the two of you could laugh at me.  That really sucks on so many levels.

One--that I don't get to relate to you separate from the vicious Dis, I don't get to work it out with your privately.

Believe me a slur here and there is not a heart breaker.  I don't wake up every morning thinking about being a lesbian.

I wake and think of being alive, and so fortunate to be loved, and I get on with my day in that attitude.

I think about being a lesbian when people work hard to undo my legal marriage in California.  And I am the kind of person that doesn't like racial, sexist, homophobic slurs.  I always address them to people I know in RL

I'm the same person here.

You don't like me?  Fine.  I'd like a measure of civility--that's all.  If I don't get it, I'll just stop talking to you.

That ought to make you VERY happy.  Just hang out with people who share your views and bore yourself to death.


----------



## Modbert

Sky Dancer said:


> I thought you and I got along ok.  That's why I pm'ed you.  I thought we'd come to some understanding privately.
> 
> Then I learned you were forwarding my pms to Dis so that the two of you could laugh at me.  That really sucks on so many levels.
> 
> One--that I don't get to relate to you separate from the vicious Dis, I don't get to work it out with your privately.
> 
> Believe me a slur here and there is not a heart breaker.  I don't wake up every morning thinking about being a lesbian.
> 
> I wake and think of being alive, and so fortunate to be loved, and I get on with my day in that attitude.
> 
> I think about being a lesbian when people work hard to undo my legal marriage in California.  And I am the kind of person that doesn't like racial, sexist, homophobic slurs.  I always address them to people I know in RL
> 
> I'm the same person here.
> 
> You don't like me?  Fine.  I'd like a measure of civility--that's all.  If I don't get it, I'll just stop talking to you.
> 
> That ought to make you VERY happy.  Just hang out with people who share your views and bore yourself to death.



Sky, you need to stop playing this:



(Don't mind the mormon comment, best site that had this.)


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> I thought you and I got along ok.  That's why I pm'ed you.  I thought we'd come to some understanding privately.
> 
> Then I learned you were forwarding my pms to Dis so that the two of you could laugh at me.  That really sucks on so many levels.
> 
> One--that I don't get to relate to you separate from the vicious Dis, I don't get to work it out with your privately.
> 
> Believe me a slur here and there is not a heart breaker.  I don't wake up every morning thinking about being a lesbian.
> 
> I wake and think of being alive, and so fortunate to be loved, and I get on with my day in that attitude.
> 
> I think about being a lesbian when people work hard to undo my legal marriage in California.  And I am the kind of person that doesn't like racial, sexist, homophobic slurs.  I always address them to people I know in RL
> 
> I'm the same person here.
> 
> You don't like me?  Fine.  I'd like a measure of civility--that's all.  If I don't get it, I'll just stop talking to you.
> 
> That ought to make you happy.



what part of i don't give a flying fuck what you do is causing you so  much confusion? 
.
i don't care what you think about me, i don't care what you say about me, i don't care what you fuck, i don't care what you eat, i don't care what you drink.

it seems like a simple enough concept that even a dullard like you ought to be able to get it the fifteenth or sixteenth time around.


----------



## alan1

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, call me a sentimental fool  but I thought that was a nice exchange between Sky and Amanda. And even what dillo had to say. Before he got worried what the other guys would say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GUYS read this shit ???
Click to expand...


And sometimes we look at the car accident off the side of the road as we pass by.


----------



## dilloduck

Abstinance to apathy in 146 posts---interstesting.


----------



## del

dilloduck said:


> Abstinance to apathy in 146 posts---interstesting.



at this rate, we should hit homophobia sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.


----------



## dilloduck

del said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinance to apathy in 146 posts---interstesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> at this rate, we should hit homophobia sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.
Click to expand...


I'll get out my abacus if it doesn't have drool all over it.


----------



## alan1

del said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinance to apathy in 146 posts---interstesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *at this rate, we should hit homophobia* sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.
Click to expand...


Too late, you already said it.
You must be a hater.


----------



## del

BatBoy said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinance to apathy in 146 posts---interstesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *at this rate, we should hit homophobia* sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too late, you already said it.
> You must be a hater.
Click to expand...


am i that transparent?


----------



## alan1

del said:


> BatBoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> *at this rate, we should hit homophobia* sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too late, you already said it.
> You must be a hater.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> am i that transparent?
Click to expand...


There must be a place in government for you.
Have you ever cheated on your taxes?


----------



## del

BatBoy said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BatBoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too late, you already said it.
> You must be a hater.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> am i that transparent?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There must be a place in government for you.
> Have you ever cheated on your taxes?
Click to expand...


no, but i haven't filed yet this year, and my daughter went to overnight camp last year. i'm thinking cabinet level.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you and I got along ok.  That's why I pm'ed you.  I thought we'd come to some understanding privately.
> 
> Then I learned you were forwarding my pms to Dis so that the two of you could laugh at me.  That really sucks on so many levels.
> 
> One--that I don't get to relate to you separate from the vicious Dis, I don't get to work it out with your privately.
> 
> Believe me a slur here and there is not a heart breaker.  I don't wake up every morning thinking about being a lesbian.
> 
> I wake and think of being alive, and so fortunate to be loved, and I get on with my day in that attitude.
> 
> I think about being a lesbian when people work hard to undo my legal marriage in California.  And I am the kind of person that doesn't like racial, sexist, homophobic slurs.  I always address them to people I know in RL
> 
> I'm the same person here.
> 
> You don't like me?  Fine.  I'd like a measure of civility--that's all.  If I don't get it, I'll just stop talking to you.
> 
> That ought to make you happy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what part of i don't give a flying fuck what you do is causing you so  much confusion?
> .
> i don't care what you think about me, i don't care what you say about me, i don't care what you fuck, i don't care what you eat, i don't care what you drink.
> 
> it seems like a simple enough concept that even a dullard like you ought to be able to get it the fifteenth or sixteenth time around.
Click to expand...


I get it.  You don't like me.  We're not friends.  Stop talking to me.   It's very simple.


----------



## alan1

del said:


> BatBoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> am i that transparent?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There must be a place in government for you.
> Have you ever cheated on your taxes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, but i haven't filed yet this year, and my daughter went to overnight camp last year. i'm thinking cabinet level.
Click to expand...


The average person doesn't get a car and driver, but do you get Car and Driver magazine?
That could be just the enhancement you need in your resume'.


----------



## del

BatBoy said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BatBoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There must be a place in government for you.
> Have you ever cheated on your taxes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no, but i haven't filed yet this year, and my daughter went to overnight camp last year. i'm thinking cabinet level.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The average person doesn't get a car and driver, but do you get Car and Driver magazine?
> That could be just the enhancement you need in your resume'.
Click to expand...


i saw it at the library once. fuck it, that's close enough


----------



## Amanda

dilloduck said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinance to apathy in 146 posts---interstesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> at this rate, we should hit homophobia sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll get out my abacus if it doesn't have drool all over it.
Click to expand...


We should start a strangest object we've ever masturbated with thread... just a thought.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> at this rate, we should hit homophobia sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get out my abacus if it doesn't have drool all over it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We should start a strangest object we've ever masturbated with thread... just a thought.
Click to expand...


You haven't passed out yet ??


----------



## Amanda

BatBoy said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's got you on the sauce all of a sudden?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got dumped. Maybe it was cos I wouldn't put out. I dunno, he gave typical "it's not you, it's me" kinda stuff. That's ok tho, like the Phoenix I have risen from the ashes... I just can't walk straight. *I'll clean up when this bottle is gone*, but I'm committed to finishing it to end the era. And I keep my promises... as you know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not really a good old fashioned self-pity drinking binge unless you stay drunk for a month.
Click to expand...


I had a good start on it today, I woke up still drunk from last night. God that's a weird feeling.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> My advice to you Amanda.  Don't beat yourself up for experimenting--nor worry about your identity.  You're probably heterosexual.
> 
> I'm the worst person at counseling anyone about sexual identity issues.  My own experience is that sexuality is on a continuum and is a lot less solid that most people consider.



I have no doubt I'm hetero, I just did some things in the past that I wouldn't have done if I was sober. I'll pick it up with you later, it's getting harder and harder to type anything coherent. Thank God for red underlined squigglies or this would all be complete gibberish like I posted last night.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> My advice to you Amanda.  Don't beat yourself up for experimenting--nor worry about your identity.  You're probably heterosexual.
> 
> I'm the worst person at counseling anyone about sexual identity issues.  My own experience is that sexuality is on a continuum and is a lot less solid that most people consider.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt I'm hetero, I just did some things in the past that I wouldn't have done if I was sober. I'll pick it up with you later, it's getting harder and harder to type anything coherent. Thank God for red underlined squigglies or this would all be complete gibberish like I posted last night.
Click to expand...


well finish up and pass out-----and ty for the pic--They've been a big hit !


----------



## Sky Dancer

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> at this rate, we should hit homophobia sometime in 2011- june 16th by my calculations, but i'll have to redo the numbers to be positive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get out my abacus if it doesn't have drool all over it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We should start a strangest object we've ever masturbated with thread... just a thought.
Click to expand...


One of my dearest friends had an orgasm while her cat sat on her lap purring.  She's extra sensitive.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get out my abacus if it doesn't have drool all over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should start a strangest object we've ever masturbated with thread... just a thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One of my dearest friends had an orgasm while her cat sat on her lap purring.
Click to expand...


odd---a cat had on orgasm on MY lap when I was purring .


----------



## Dr. T. Sanchez

Anguille said:


> Hindsight is 20/20.



Hindsight IS NOT 20/20. To wit: IF ONLY I'd have bought a PS3 instead of a Wii, I'd be happy. Would I have REALLY been happier with the PS3? Who knows?

Hindsight IS NOT 20/20.


----------



## Amanda

dilloduck said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> We should start a strangest object we've ever masturbated with thread... just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of my dearest friends had an orgasm while her cat sat on her lap purring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> odd---a cat had on orgasm on MY lap when I was purring .
Click to expand...


You're one sick fuck Ducky, have I told you that lately?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> My advice to you Amanda.  Don't beat yourself up for experimenting--nor worry about your identity.  You're probably heterosexual.
> 
> I'm the worst person at counseling anyone about sexual identity issues.  My own experience is that sexuality is on a continuum and is a lot less solid that most people consider.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt I'm hetero, I just did some things in the past that I wouldn't have done if I was sober. I'll pick it up with you later, it's getting harder and harder to type anything coherent. Thank God for red underlined squigglies or this would all be complete gibberish like I posted last night.
Click to expand...


If you've no doubt you're heterosexual, why are you interested in the sex life of someoone who is a complete stranger to you.

Why are you interested in lesbian sex?

I suggest watching some movies.  Maybe it just turns you on and you and your boyfriend can watch some and make nice vanilla heterosexual sex.


----------



## dilloduck

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of my dearest friends had an orgasm while her cat sat on her lap purring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> odd---a cat had on orgasm on MY lap when I was purring .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're one sick fuck Ducky, have I told you that lately?
Click to expand...


not personally but don't call now---I can't understand you when you slur your words.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get out my abacus if it doesn't have drool all over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should start a strangest object we've ever masturbated with thread... just a thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One of my dearest friends had an orgasm while her cat sat on her lap purring.  She's extra sensitive.
Click to expand...


I guess so. I've been working the "spin cycle" thing and can't get anywhere. I need so much pressure it isn't funny.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Try a vibrator.  They're not for everyone.  I find them too intense.  I could probably come from a cat purring--but I haven't tried it, lol.  All my honeu has to do is give me one of her looks and I completely melt.  We've gotten very subtle these days.  We know each other really well.

It'll all work out.  You've had a rejectioni--that sucks.  They'll be other young men beating down your door.

In the meantime, learn what satisfies yourself and be the woman the man you want would be attracted to.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Try a vibrator.  They're not for everyone.  I find them too intense.  I could probably come from a cat purring--but I haven't tried it, lol.
> 
> It'll all work out.  You've had a rejectioni--that sucks.  They'll be other young men beating down your door.
> 
> In the meantime, learn what satisfies yourself and be the woman the man you want would be attracted to.



that's some deep shit again for an thread about abstinence


----------



## del

dilloduck said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try a vibrator.  They're not for everyone.  I find them too intense.  I could probably come from a cat purring--but I haven't tried it, lol.
> 
> It'll all work out.  You've had a rejectioni--that sucks.  They'll be other young men beating down your door.
> 
> In the meantime, learn what satisfies yourself and be the woman the man you want would be attracted to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that's some deep shit again for an thread about abstinence
Click to expand...


you're half right


----------



## Sky Dancer

Absence makes the heart grow founder.  Abstinence makes the libido hornier.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> My advice to you Amanda.  Don't beat yourself up for experimenting--nor worry about your identity.  You're probably heterosexual.
> 
> I'm the worst person at counseling anyone about sexual identity issues.  My own experience is that sexuality is on a continuum and is a lot less solid that most people consider.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt I'm hetero, I just did some things in the past that I wouldn't have done if I was sober. I'll pick it up with you later, it's getting harder and harder to type anything coherent. Thank God for red underlined squigglies or this would all be complete gibberish like I posted last night.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you've no doubt you're heterosexual, why are you interested in the sex life of someoone who is a complete stranger to you.
> 
> Why are you interested in lesbian sex?
> 
> I suggest watching some movies.  Maybe it just turns you on and you and your boyfriend can watch some and make nice vanilla heterosexual sex.
Click to expand...


No... it doesn't turn me on... I don't think... er... maybe. 

I was going to do this between just us but since you bring it up and I don't give a fuck...

I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.

I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first. 

I like the way boys smell. Girls semms I don't know artificial to me, cos maybe I know the work they put in but I know how boys are they just ARE so it's like all so real. 

I dunno does any of this make sense? It doen't to me.


----------



## manu1959

Sky Dancer said:


> Absence makes the heart grow founder.  Abstinence makes the libido hornier.



absinthe makes you brain dead.....


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Absence makes the heart grow founder.  Abstinence makes the libido hornier.



another one worthy of a Hallmark card !


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> Try a vibrator.  They're not for everyone.  I find them too intense.  I could probably come from a cat purring--but I haven't tried it, lol.  All my honeu has to do is give me one of her looks and I completely melt.  We've gotten very subtle these days.  We know each other really well.
> 
> It'll all work out.  You've had a rejectioni--that sucks.  They'll be other young men beating down your door.
> 
> In the meantime, learn what satisfies yourself and be the woman the man you want would be attracted to.



Yeah but have you seen the price of a good vib??? Jeeeesus I can do it myself for that.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt I'm hetero, I just did some things in the past that I wouldn't have done if I was sober. I'll pick it up with you later, it's getting harder and harder to type anything coherent. Thank God for red underlined squigglies or this would all be complete gibberish like I posted last night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you've no doubt you're heterosexual, why are you interested in the sex life of someoone who is a complete stranger to you.
> 
> Why are you interested in lesbian sex?
> 
> I suggest watching some movies.  Maybe it just turns you on and you and your boyfriend can watch some and make nice vanilla heterosexual sex.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No... it doesn't turn me on... I don't think... er... maybe.
> 
> I was going to do this between just us but since you bring it up and I don't give a fuck...
> 
> I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.
> 
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> 
> I like the way boys smell. Girls semms I don't know artificial to me, cos maybe I know the work they put in but I know how boys are they just ARE so it's like all so real.
> 
> I dunno does any of this make sense? It doen't to me.
Click to expand...


I like the way girls touch and kiss me.  I don't feel wrong about it.  You do.  Pay atttention to that.  It's not good for you to do anything you feel wrong about.

I think it's fine that you had an experience with a woman.  I don't think it's fine that it makes you feel guilty.  Don't do anything that you regret.

I regret nothing.  Actually, I do regret rejecting a girl one time because I was confused.  I hurt her feelings. I regret that.

I have no regrets for loving men and women.  I have no regrets that I am married to a woman.  It's just how it worked out for us.  We'd both been with men.  We were both married to the same man.

I thought when I first danced with a woman, how strange it was to hold her.  How strange it was to be in a lesbian bar.  How differently she smelled.  Men and women smell differently.

HOw  shocked I was after I had come out with a woman, to find myself falling in love with a man.  I'm glad he was married.  I refused to have an affair with him because of his previous committment--and his wife was pregnant with twins.  I wouldn't have been able to live with myself.

But I did love him deeply.  He impressed the hell out of me in so many ways.  I didn't think a man could be so feeling and deep in this thinking.  I loved him with my whole heart, and I loved him and myself enough to not act on those feelings.

Ok.  I've had two glasses of wine tonight myself.  So this isn't my usual kind of sharing--especially knowing my enemies like nothing else than to smash my face in my complexity and laugh at it.

But here I am--one human being to another.  I think its great that you reflect deeply and I have no doubt you will find your way.

It makes no difference to me that you prefer to be with a man.  It's not easy to be a dyke, even thought times have changed and people are more tolerate.  The truth is when it comes to a committment like marriage--it will never happen in my lifetime.  I will not be able to provide for my wife--the way a man can.

It's just the truth of the times.   I accept it.  I accept that someone can call me a slur and not give a shit.  It's just how things are.  It's the truth.

If I had a choice--I would have chosen to be heterosexual.  It's much easier.


----------



## dilloduck

Oh there's still hope you can get it right. Perseverance !


----------



## Sky Dancer

I'm not sure what you mean, whoever you are who calls himself dilloduck.

I'm married.  If my mate died tomorrow.  I'd be so devastated that having another relationship with a woman or man would be the last thing I'd be interested in.

I always had short term relationships with men in between long term relationships with women.  I'm into emotional closeness.   Men don't lead with that as a strength generally.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, whoever you are who calls himself dilloduck.
> 
> I'm married.  If my mate died tomorrow.  I'd be so devastated that having another relationship with a woman or man would be the last thing I'd be interested in.
> 
> I always had short term relationships with men in between long term relationships with women.  I'm into emotional closeness.   Men don't lead with that as a strength generally.



I'm all hetero--you'll never be able to understand--I know--it's sad,


----------



## Sky Dancer

I understand perfectly.  The problem is if you like oral sex--gay guys do it bettter.  To men, that is.  You lose.  The man I fell in love with after being certain I had ZERo feelings for men was so flexible in yoga he could suck his own dick, lol.  Or, so he said.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> I understand perfectly.  The problem is if you like oral sex--gay guys do it bettter.  To men, that is.  You lose.  The man I fell in love with after being certain I had ZERo feelings for men was so flexible in yoga he could suck his own dick, lol.  Or, so he said.



sorry--nice try but you really don't understand the true hetero male. Just accept us tho


----------



## Sky Dancer

I don't have to understand the het male, do I ?  Get the het women to understand you.

The man I feel in love with AFTER being clear I was gay was in his own category.  He was special.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> I don't have to understand the het male, do I ?  Get the het women to understand you.
> 
> The man I feel in love with AFTER being clear I was gay was in his own category.  He was special.



I don't fall in love a lot with different sexes and stuff-----see--you still don't get it.


----------



## Sky Dancer

dillo-

I get it.  You're straight.  So what?  I'm not.  I'm gay, I'm bi.  Big deal.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> dillo-
> 
> I get it.  You're straight.  So what?  I'm not.  I'm gay, I'm bi.  Big deal.



no shit---big deal---can we stop all the homo parades now ?


----------



## Sky Dancer

What homo parades?  Last time I went to a homo parade was 1992.

Don't worry dillo.  If you were the last human being on earth I wouldn't fall in love with you.  You hate women.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> What homo parades?  Last time I went to a homo parade was 1992.
> 
> Don't worry dillo.  If you were the last human being on earth I wouldn't fall in love with you.  You hate women.



whew--liking them makes sex so complicated


----------



## Sky Dancer

Plenty of men fuck women, few love them.


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Plenty of men fuck women, few love them.



exactly


----------



## Jon

Sky Dancer said:


> Plenty of men fuck women, few love them.



And vice versa.


----------



## Jon

Amanda said:


> I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.



Ok, now I think you're just TRYING to tease me.


----------



## Modbert

jsanders said:


> And vice versa.


----------



## Modbert

jsanders said:


> Ok, now I think you're just TRYING to tease me.



As I said before J, she's trolling you hardcore.


----------



## dilloduck

Modbert said:


> jsanders said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, now I think you're just TRYING to tease me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before J, she's trolling you hardcore.
Click to expand...


She really IS a 50 year old man with shitstained underwear.


----------



## Modbert

dilloduck said:


> She really IS a 50 year old man with shitstained underwear.



Oh no no, she's really who says she is. She is still trolling him and all the guys possible hardcore. 






Kidding Amanda.


----------



## Agnapostate

I really can't imagine why people feel the need to question her age. She's as old as she says she is; I don't know why two separate threads were started about that topic.


----------



## Modbert

Agnapostate said:


> I really can't imagine why people feel the need to question her age. She's as old as she says she is; I don't know why two separate threads were started about that topic.



Because many people don't think that a good looking woman can be both good looking and intelligent.


----------



## Agnapostate

Or young. The Likud shrew comes to mind.


----------



## Skull Pilot

strollingbones said:


> okay robert follow me here...a man owns his sperm till he does what? ...say it with me...gives it to a woman...then she owns the sperm and can use it....moral of this little tale...keep your hands and sperm to yourself....condoms work great for this





strollingbones said:


> men must take responsiblity for where they spread their sperm....i love how men pretend to be all weak...i couldnt resist blah blah blah...well think about 18 yrs plus of childsupport when you engage in unprotected sex



This is exactly why i tell my son to never never never trust a woman, not even if he's married, with birth control.

And the kicker of this whole argument is that a woman can have an abortion, or abandon a child under safe haven laws and there is absolutely no stigma attached.

But a man who doesn't want the child is forced to pay and pay and if he doesn't want to be "actively involved" in raising said child, he is labeled as a deadbeat, a bad person, a man of poor character while the woman is lionized and praised even if she lied to him about being on the pill.

So men, *never* trust a woman with birth control.

This brings up another issue that bugs the shit out of me.

A woman can walk into an abortion clinic and terminate a pregnancy and she is never asked, "What does the father think about you aborting his child?"

But when I was 26, I went to a urologist to have a vasectomy and the nurse asked me, "What does your wife think about you getting a vasectomy?" 

To which I answered "I don't care what she thinks about it."

the doctor tried to tell me that my wife (now my ex) had to be involved and actually sign some of the paperwork.  Needless to say I told the doctor that I would do no such thing, that I and I alone was in charge of any and all of my own medical decisions.

Yet another double standard when it comes to reproduction.


----------



## Care4all

I agree, if the man does not want his sperm to fertilize an egg, then he needs to take care of that himself.....do not trust the woman, I agree....

One-birth control is only 99.9% safe if the woman takes the pill every day at the exact same time....if she forgets a day and doubles up on the next days dose as per the instructions then she is at greater risk of the pill NOT being 99.9% safe....if this happens a couple of days a month, where she forgets one day and doubles up on the next, Birth control pills become more and more unsafe.

Secondly, and in general... women are made to have babies...whether they like it or not....and sometimes the subconscious urge overcomes her rationality....meaning, she is willing to do the "good deed", as the hubby calls it , in the heat of the moment without the conscious thought of "maybe i will get pregnant"...the INNER female is controlling this without knowledge of our outer beings imho and totally can make us irrational, or risky, because our bodies and our purpose in the overall big picture, is to keep the human race alive.

Granted, many women are very careful with their own bodies and protecting from unwanted pregnancies...but if i were a man, i would still not rely solely on her....never!  

so why do some woman abort if having a child is an innate trait?  I think through thousands upon thousands of years of men being the provider, we know deep inside that we need a good mate to be there to help us rear this offspring.  

In general, I think if the woman sees that her mate is not going to be there in that manner, abortion for some of them, becomes acceptable.

I am not talking about the women that whore around day and night and use abortion merely as a birth control method....which i do not believe is true with very many women...it's just too costly to use abortion as a birth control method and no one in their right mind would ever choose abortion...a risky surgery, over the bc pill.....just way too costly and also very harmful to their bodies with repeat abortions...

I know it all sounds silly, and we think we are above other animals when it comes to sex, and can control ourselves and make sound decisions yah dee dah.....  and i say it's not really silly....there are stronger forces at bay than what meets the mere surface.

so, if you are a guy....protect your own sperm and as strolling said, don't give it away so easily unless you are ready for parenthood.....because as of just a year ago I had read, that 43% of all children born in America today are born to SINGLE MOTHERS....

That right there shows that women are not that careful with preventing their own pregnancy, and also it could be indicative of the times we are in, where more women can take care of themselves...even if the man dumps them and their child?

That's my take on....pretty archaic perhaps, but i still think there are stronger forces lurking....

care


----------



## dilloduck

Agnapostate said:


> I really can't imagine why people feel the need to question her age. She's as old as she says she is; I don't know why two separate threads were started about that topic.



It's a joke !


----------



## Anguille

Dr. T. Sanchez said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hindsight IS NOT 20/20. To wit: IF ONLY I'd have bought a PS3 instead of a Wii, I'd be happy. Would I have REALLY been happier with the PS3? Who knows?
> 
> Hindsight IS NOT 20/20.
Click to expand...

IF ONLY I'd not said that about hindsight. Would you not have corrected me? Who knows? 

Do you know who knows?


----------



## midcan5

This thread made me laugh out loud a few times. It's rather funny that Palin's daughter is saying that, are the youth of the republican party becoming more liberal or at least more realistic.


----------



## Anguille

This thread. 
It'll make you cry. 
It will make you laugh.

For a few it was completely orgasmic.

_
purr_


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> This thread.
> It'll make you cry.
> I will make you laugh.
> 
> For a few it was completely orgasmic.
> 
> _
> purr_



Lmao----it was wild


----------



## catzmeow

Amanda said:


> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.



It makes sense to me.  A lot of it is your age.  Guys your age are typically not very patient, and they tend to fumble around a lot, and be in a rush.  Girls are gentler and slower.  As you get older, you will find that men slow down and get gentler and more experienced, too.  So, it will get better.

The other thing you can do is experiment PERSONALLY so that you can show a guy what you like...that helps both of you.


----------



## catzmeow

Skull Pilot said:


> Yet another double standard when it comes to reproduction.



Believe it or not, there are a lot of women who are annoyed by the double standard, as well.

When I had my tubes tied, it was state law in Utah that my husband had to sign a consent form in order for me to do it.


----------



## dilloduck

catzmeow said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense to me.  A lot of it is your age.  Guys your age are typically not very patient, and they tend to fumble around a lot, and be in a rush.  Girls are gentler and slower.  As you get older, you will find that men slow down and get gentler and more experienced, too.  So, it will get better.
> 
> The other thing you can do is experiment PERSONALLY so that you can show a guy what you like...that helps both of you.
Click to expand...


I think Amanda is probably a little too drunk from last night to appreciate that info right now.


----------



## del

Anguille said:


> Dr. T. Sanchez said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hindsight IS NOT 20/20. To wit: IF ONLY I'd have bought a PS3 instead of a Wii, I'd be happy. Would I have REALLY been happier with the PS3? Who knows?
> 
> Hindsight IS NOT 20/20.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> IF ONLY I'd not said that about hindsight. Would you not have corrected me? Who knows?
> 
> Do you know who knows?
Click to expand...


i knew, but only in hindsight


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense to me.  A lot of it is your age.  Guys your age are typically not very patient, and they tend to fumble around a lot, and be in a rush.  Girls are gentler and slower.  As you get older, you will find that men slow down and get gentler and more experienced, too.  So, it will get better.
> 
> The other thing you can do is experiment PERSONALLY so that you can show a guy what you like...that helps both of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think Amanda is probably a little too drunk from last night to appreciate that info right now.
Click to expand...


LOL!  I was gonna say. I suppose if she wants to read Dear Abby, she can buy the paper.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense to me.  A lot of it is your age.  Guys your age are typically not very patient, and they tend to fumble around a lot, and be in a rush.  Girls are gentler and slower.  As you get older, you will find that men slow down and get gentler and more experienced, too.  So, it will get better.
> 
> The other thing you can do is experiment PERSONALLY so that you can show a guy what you like...that helps both of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Amanda is probably a little too drunk from last night to appreciate that info right now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL!  I was gonna say. I suppose if she wants to read Dear Abby, she can buy the paper.
Click to expand...


oh cmon---lay some wise tips out there for that poor naive 18 year old


----------



## Sky Dancer

Dear Abby,

My feet are too long,

My hair's falling out and my rights are all wrong,

Every side I get up on is the wrong side of bed,

If it werent' so expensive I'd wish I were dead.

Signed,

Unhappy

Unhappy, unhappy you have no complaint,

You are what you are and you ain't what you aint,

Some wishin' and hopin and be who you are.

Signed,

Dear Abby


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> Dear Abby,
> 
> My feet are too long,
> 
> My hair's falling out and my rights are all wrong,
> 
> Every side I get up on is the wrong side of bed,
> 
> If it werent' so expensive I'd wish I were dead.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Unhappy
> 
> Unhappy, unhappy you have no complaint,
> 
> You are what you are and you ain't what you aint,
> 
> Some wishin' and hopin and be who you are.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Dear Abby



john prine's attorney would like a word with you


----------



## dilloduck

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Abby,
> 
> My feet are too long,
> 
> My hair's falling out and my rights are all wrong,
> 
> Every side I get up on is the wrong side of bed,
> 
> If it werent' so expensive I'd wish I were dead.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Unhappy
> 
> Unhappy, unhappy you have no complaint,
> 
> You are what you are and you ain't what you aint,
> 
> Some wishin' and hopin and be who you are.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Dear Abby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> john prine's attorney would like a word with you
Click to expand...


 I was gonna say


----------



## Sky Dancer

Thanks for reminding me of who wrote the song, or it's name.  I couldn't remember.  Now, please immediately  ban me for a copyright violation.

Thanks,
http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/prine-john/dear-abby-10853.html


----------



## catzmeow

dilloduck said:


> I think Amanda is probably a little too drunk from last night to appreciate that info right now.



Yeah, I'm cringing as I imagine her hangover.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Thanks for reminding me of who wrote the song, or it's name.  I couldn't remember.  Now, please immediately  ban me for a copyright violation.
> 
> Thanks,



If you're banned, will "Arthur" still post here?


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> LOL!  I was gonna say. I suppose if she wants to read Dear Abby, she can buy the paper.



Please.  Dear Abby doesn't have my skills and knowledge in this realm.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Yeah, that's what happens when two people live in the same household.  Tresha's GF posts too, but not often.

Same with Arthur.   

Arthur isn't coming back.

Both accounts could be banned as far as either of us are concerned.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Tresha's GF posts too, but not often.
> 
> Same with Arthur.
> 
> Arthur isn't coming back.
> 
> Both accounts could be banned as far as either of us are concerned.



Why do you lack the control to ban yourself?


----------



## dilloduck

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tresha's GF posts too, but not often.
> 
> Same with Arthur.
> 
> Arthur isn't coming back.
> 
> Both accounts could be banned as far as either of us are concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you lack the control to ban yourself?
Click to expand...


and miss a good chance at being mistreated---??  cmon


----------



## catzmeow

dilloduck said:


> and miss a good chance at being mistreated---??  cmon



That's true.  Banning one's self from a hostile environment requires exercising CONTROL, versus being a passive victim at the mercy of other people's whims.


----------



## Sky Dancer

I take breaks.  That works for me.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> I take breaks.  That works for me.



Clearly not, since you repeatedly ask to be banned.

That's a hilarious tactic, by the way.


----------



## GHook93

It is so so true! Look at the highschool students that practiced abstinence when you were in highschool? They usually didn't do it by choice! I lost my big V in my senior year! I didn't wait Fresh, Soph or Jr because of choice! I did it because of lack of partner.

 I think we should teach girls and boys (separately) that its best to wait and tell them the horrors of teenage pregnancy. I truly believe we as adults need to be honest with ourselves. Teens are probably not going to listen to calls for abstinence and it is ignorant to believe they will. What they should do is preach safe sex and have a place in school for where they can get free condoms anonymously. Also a girl should feel safe with approaching the school nurse with her conversations held private about birth control pills (the school should make it know that her identity and conservation will be private and confidential, nor will the school nurse judge or try to persuade her, rather she will only help her). I also go back and forth on the abortion pill, but in the end the social liberal comes out in me and I think its should also be provided anonymously. I remember my first dozen or so times were unprotected. Because (1)  I was too afraid for some reason to buy condoms at the store and (2) my catholic girlfriend at the time was way to scared to tell her parents she needed birth control. It wasn't until they caught us bare naked and all (great memory for the memory banks) that she got on the pill!

Now if there was a safe place in school where I could have got condoms without anyone knowing, I probably would have. Same with my girlfriend and the pill!

Look I have a daughter (very young one) and it pains me to think that she might be tempted in highschool. I honestly pray that she stays pure until she gets married in her late 20s (after college). But I am a realist. Trust me I am going to preach abstinence big time and that all teenage boys are dogs, but I will have my wife (I don't think I can have those conversations with her) about safe sex! Realism is better than fanatism. OK I official grossed myself out and scared the hell out of myself!


----------



## Care4all

GHook93 said:


> It wasn't until they caught us bare naked and all (great memory for the memory banks) that she got on the pill!


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I take breaks.  That works for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly not, since you repeatedly ask to be banned.
> 
> That's a hilarious tactic, by the way.
Click to expand...


Good for you.  You understand my sense of humor.


----------



## GHook93

Care4all said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't until they caught us bare naked and all (great memory for the memory banks) that she got on the pill!
Click to expand...


Also there was no where to run and we didn't hear them come home (they weren't supposed to be home for hours - famous last line)! I do think if her dad had a shotgun, I wouldn't be gracing USMB with my wisdom. I remember is hearing, "What the Fuck is Going on" and then the lights went on. And all of sudden there I am standing butt naked and in shock! Think about it, your a good catholic father with a Jewish little punk violating your only daughter! Yep I thought I was dead!


----------



## Care4all

I had read recently, that girls that have Fathers that are close with them in their preteen years,(puberty) and fathers that tell them like it is with near every boy out there, they want to get in her pants and will try every trick in the book to do so, and most importantly Fathers that tell their daughters that saying NO to this is a good thing, and shows the boys ''who'' really is in control of her own body...will NOT make boys run away from her....not the decent ones, that they will probably even desire her more by her saying NO....

turn out to be girls or women with great self esteem, and girls that resist sex with anyone, but wait....

this thing i was reading says the mom telling them all that stuff is not as affective.


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!  I was gonna say. I suppose if she wants to read Dear Abby, she can buy the paper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please.  Dear Abby doesn't have my skills and knowledge in this realm.
Click to expand...


Wrong thread for that post. 

You meant that one for USMB's Most Idiotic.


----------



## xsited1

Wolf said:


> Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says
> ...



Where were these girls when I was going to school!


----------



## catzmeow

In Missouri.


----------



## Andrew2382

xsited1 said:


> Wolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were there.....the majority of girls in high school are fucking...especially today.
> 
> I know they were when I graduated
Click to expand...


----------



## Amanda

catzmeow said:


> In Missouri.



I grew up in Kansas, but it prolly wasn't much different in MO.


----------



## Sky Dancer

My sympathies.  I'd hyperventilate or die in the midwest.  I like the mountains or the coasts.

I won't even visit KC.


----------



## AllieBaba

Anguille said:


> Hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> 
> 
> Besides in some of those cults, you can become a born again virgin. There is even a church ceremont for it! My sister worked with a guy whose daughter did it.



Sure she did. Name the church.


----------



## AllieBaba

I find it laughable that you guys are ready to shit yourself over the pearls of wisdom dropping from the lips of an 18 year old.

What buffoonery.


----------



## random3434

Care4all said:


> I had read recently, that girls that have Fathers that are close with them in their preteen years,(puberty) and fathers that tell them like it is with near every boy out there, they want to get in her pants and will try every trick in the book to do so, and most importantly Fathers that tell their daughters that saying NO to this is a good thing, and shows the boys ''who'' really is in control of her own body...will NOT make boys run away from her....not the decent ones, that they will probably even desire her more by her saying NO....
> 
> turn out to be girls or women with great self esteem, and girls that resist sex with anyone, but wait....
> 
> this thing i was reading says the mom telling them all that stuff is not as affective.



What a shame. Did Anne Coulter write it?

I think if your daughter respects you, she will respect your opinion. Also, if she respects herself, there is less sex with boys just to validate your self worth.


So, is it true what they say?

_Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder?_


----------



## Sky Dancer

You're just jealous, Allie.    The boys are drooling over Amanda's boobs and tripping over themselves to get in line for a date.  So what?  Let them.


----------



## AllieBaba

Echo Zulu said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had read recently, that girls that have Fathers that are close with them in their preteen years,(puberty) and fathers that tell them like it is with near every boy out there, they want to get in her pants and will try every trick in the book to do so, and most importantly Fathers that tell their daughters that saying NO to this is a good thing, and shows the boys ''who'' really is in control of her own body...will NOT make boys run away from her....not the decent ones, that they will probably even desire her more by her saying NO....
> 
> turn out to be girls or women with great self esteem, and girls that resist sex with anyone, but wait....
> 
> this thing i was reading says the mom telling them all that stuff is not as affective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame. Did Anne Coulter write it?
> 
> I think if your daughter respects you, she will respect your opinion. Also, if she respects herself, there is less sex with boys just to validate your self worth.
> 
> 
> So, is it true what they say?
> 
> _Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder?_
Click to expand...



Your ignorance is showing. Obviously you've never worked with women and girls who have absent or loser fathers.


----------



## Amanda

AllieBaba said:


> I find it laughable that you guys are ready to shit yourself over the pearls of wisdom dropping from the lips of an 18 year old.
> 
> What buffoonery.



Hey, be nice! The only advice I gave was to drink water to avoid a hangover and it works, so why are you busting on me?


----------



## Care4all

Echo Zulu said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had read recently, that girls that have Fathers that are close with them in their preteen years,(puberty) and fathers that tell them like it is with near every boy out there, they want to get in her pants and will try every trick in the book to do so, and most importantly Fathers that tell their daughters that saying NO to this is a good thing, and shows the boys ''who'' really is in control of her own body...will NOT make boys run away from her....not the decent ones, that they will probably even desire her more by her saying NO....
> 
> turn out to be girls or women with great self esteem, and girls that resist sex with anyone, but wait....
> 
> this thing i was reading says the mom telling them all that stuff is not as affective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame. Did Anne Coulter write it?
> 
> I think if your daughter respects you, she will respect your opinion. Also, if she respects herself, there is less sex with boys just to validate your self worth.
> 
> 
> So, is it true what they say?
> 
> _Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder?_
Click to expand...


It wasn't anne coulter, i will see if I can find it...

and



_Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder,

Until the girl, can wait no longer..._ 


Old school saying....I know!  

and as far as the study, it was regarding 2 parent hetero sexual marriages with girls.

A one parent family, where the girl and the mom become closer and bond well, could have the same effect?  

Care


----------



## Sky Dancer

Your moralism is showing, Allie.  Are you the thought police?


----------



## Againsheila

Skull Pilot said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> okay robert follow me here...a man owns his sperm till he does what? ...say it with me...gives it to a woman...then she owns the sperm and can use it....moral of this little tale...keep your hands and sperm to yourself....condoms work great for this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> men must take responsiblity for where they spread their sperm....i love how men pretend to be all weak...i couldnt resist blah blah blah...well think about 18 yrs plus of childsupport when you engage in unprotected sex
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is exactly why i tell my son to never never never trust a woman, not even if he's married, with birth control.
> 
> And the kicker of this whole argument is that a woman can have an abortion, or abandon a child under safe haven laws and there is absolutely no stigma attached.
> 
> But a man who doesn't want the child is forced to pay and pay and if he doesn't want to be "actively involved" in raising said child, he is labeled as a deadbeat, a bad person, a man of poor character while the woman is lionized and praised even if she lied to him about being on the pill.
> 
> So men, *never* trust a woman with birth control.
> 
> This brings up another issue that bugs the shit out of me.
> 
> A woman can walk into an abortion clinic and terminate a pregnancy and she is never asked, "What does the father think about you aborting his child?"
> 
> But when I was 26, I went to a urologist to have a vasectomy and the nurse asked me, "What does your wife think about you getting a vasectomy?"
> 
> To which I answered "I don't care what she thinks about it."
> 
> the doctor tried to tell me that my wife (now my ex) had to be involved and actually sign some of the paperwork.  Needless to say I told the doctor that I would do no such thing, that I and I alone was in charge of any and all of my own medical decisions.
> 
> Yet another double standard when it comes to reproduction.
Click to expand...


Number 1)   I do think a woman should at least discuss abortion with the father (married or not) before killing the kid.

Number 2)  I think a married man should at least discuss a vasectomy with his wife before getting one.

Number 3)  I think a woman should at least discuss a tubal with her husband before getting one.


I don't like a double standard either.  Make a law that the father gets custody 50% of the time and watch the illegitimacy rate plummet like a rock.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> My sympathies.  I'd hyperventilate or die in the midwest.  I like the mountains or the coasts.
> 
> I won't even visit KC.



I've visited a few places. Stayed the whole summer in California once. I like the midwest best. Especially in the country, it's so peaceful. The ocean is ok, but I didn't think it smelled very good and the whole thing is so commercialized. It costs millions of dollars to live close to it. If you don't live right there you have to pay to park then walk to it. And when you turn around and look behind you there's a bunch of houses. Just felt like nature wasn't free there.

As for KC, it's just a city. I don't think there's anything especially wonderful about, but it doesn't suck either. We have really good BBQ and there are a lot of things to do. But if I had a good opportunity I might move... it would just be scary to not be within driving distance on my parents.


----------



## random3434

AllieBaba said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had read recently, that girls that have Fathers that are close with them in their preteen years,(puberty) and fathers that tell them like it is with near every boy out there, they want to get in her pants and will try every trick in the book to do so, and most importantly Fathers that tell their daughters that saying NO to this is a good thing, and shows the boys ''who'' really is in control of her own body...will NOT make boys run away from her....not the decent ones, that they will probably even desire her more by her saying NO....
> 
> turn out to be girls or women with great self esteem, and girls that resist sex with anyone, but wait....
> 
> this thing i was reading says the mom telling them all that stuff is not as affective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame. Did Anne Coulter write it?
> 
> I think if your daughter respects you, she will respect your opinion. Also, if she respects herself, there is less sex with boys just to validate your self worth.
> 
> 
> So, is it true what they say?
> 
> _Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder?_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing. Obviously you've never worked with women and girls who have absent or loser fathers.
Click to expand...


Thank you Allie, how sweet of you to say that!

No, I am just raising a daughter whose father has choosen not to be in her life since she was 2, so I think I DO know what I'm talking about. 

Yes,  boys and girls need a father and a mother, but sometimes life doesn't work out that way. Do you know any single parents Allie?


----------



## Anguille

Amanda said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it laughable that you guys are ready to shit yourself over the pearls of wisdom dropping from the lips of an 18 year old.
> 
> What buffoonery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, be nice! The only advice I gave was to drink water to avoid a hangover and it works, so why are you busting on me?
Click to expand...

"busting" 

Cuz she's a boob?


----------



## Ravi

Echo Zulu said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame. Did Anne Coulter write it?
> 
> I think if your daughter respects you, she will respect your opinion. Also, if she respects herself, there is less sex with boys just to validate your self worth.
> 
> 
> So, is it true what they say?
> 
> _Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing. Obviously you've never worked with women and girls who have absent or loser fathers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you Allie, how sweet of you to say that!
> 
> No, I am just raising a daughter whose father has choosen not to be in her life since she was 2, so I think I DO know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Yes,  boys and girls need a father and a mother, but sometimes life doesn't work out that way. Do you know any single parents Allie?
Click to expand...

I think Allie is one of those that believe single parents only raise rapists and criminals.


----------



## Anguille

Echo Zulu said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame. Did Anne Coulter write it?
> 
> I think if your daughter respects you, she will respect your opinion. Also, if she respects herself, there is less sex with boys just to validate your self worth.
> 
> 
> So, is it true what they say?
> 
> _Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing. Obviously you've never worked with women and girls who have absent or loser fathers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you Allie, how sweet of you to say that!
> 
> No, I am just raising a daughter whose father has choosen not to be in her life since she was 2, so I think I DO know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Yes,  boys and girls need a father and a mother, but sometimes life doesn't work out that way. Do you know any single parents Allie?
Click to expand...

Isn't Allie a single mom too?

One parent can do the work of two. Sometimes better.


----------



## Care4all

Also, the main point,  of my comment was to ghook, who has a daughter....and other men that have daughters and are involved in their daughter's rearing....it is important that you do not leave this all up to the mother if you think this is just a girl on girl thing....it is NOT, is what I was reading.

I was raised very traditionally, where when my sister and i reached the age of puberty, my dad, backed away and all our "female issues" were all done with mom....  that ain't so good, is what I had read...if the daughter sees the dad not involved and reinforcing what mom says, but from a man's point of view....the girl may not trust what mom is telling her, completely....  something like that....


----------



## Harry Dresden

Amanda said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> look bottom line,if you want to abstain from sex....just get married....before long....its like the monastery....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be such a cynic Harry.
Click to expand...


Amanda,i dont know anything about this guy your talking about,but i do know one thing....its his loss.....there plenty of good guys  out there waiting for someone like you to come along....or girls whatever....


----------



## Modbert

Ravi said:


> I think Allie is one of those that believe single parents only raise rapists and criminals.



Several people on this board worship at that fountain, I call it the fountain of Ann Coulter.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> My sympathies.  I'd hyperventilate or die in the midwest.  I like the mountains or the coasts.
> 
> I won't even visit KC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've visited a few places. Stayed the whole summer in California once. I like the midwest best. Especially in the country, it's so peaceful. The ocean is ok, but I didn't think it smelled very good and the whole thing is so commercialized. It costs millions of dollars to live close to it. If you don't live right there you have to pay to park then walk to it. And when you turn around and look behind you there's a bunch of houses. Just felt like nature wasn't free there.
> 
> As for KC, it's just a city. I don't think there's anything especially wonderful about, but it doesn't suck either. We have really good BBQ and there are a lot of things to do. But if I had a good opportunity I might move... *it would just be scary to not be within driving distance on my parents.*
Click to expand...


When I was your age I couldn't get far enough away from them, LOL.  Whew--hoo Emancipation.

I don't like midwestern culture.


----------



## Harry Dresden

RodISHI said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> look bottom line,if you want to abstain from sex....just get married....before long....its like the monastery....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be such a cynic Harry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Poor Harry no sympathy here.
Click to expand...


WHAT! ....none whatsoever?......not even a tiny bit?


----------



## Harry Dresden

dilloduck said:


> RodISHI said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be such a cynic Harry.
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Harry no sympathy here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yo Harry---there's a 'cheating on your spouse' thread you might wanna check into !
Click to expand...


thats ok Dillo....im kinda attached to my balls.....


----------



## Againsheila

GHook93 said:


> It is so so true! Look at the highschool students that practiced abstinence when you were in highschool? They usually didn't do it by choice! I lost my big V in my senior year! I didn't wait Fresh, Soph or Jr because of choice! I did it because of lack of partner.
> 
> I think we should teach girls and boys (separately) that its best to wait and tell them the horrors of teenage pregnancy. I truly believe we as adults need to be honest with ourselves. Teens are probably not going to listen to calls for abstinence and it is ignorant to believe they will. What they should do is preach safe sex and have a place in school for where they can get free condoms anonymously. Also a girl should feel safe with approaching the school nurse with her conversations held private about birth control pills (the school should make it know that her identity and conservation will be private and confidential, nor will the school nurse judge or try to persuade her, rather she will only help her). I also go back and forth on the abortion pill, but in the end the social liberal comes out in me and I think its should also be provided anonymously. I remember my first dozen or so times were unprotected. Because (1)  I was too afraid for some reason to buy condoms at the store and (2) my catholic girlfriend at the time was way to scared to tell her parents she needed birth control. It wasn't until they caught us bare naked and all (great memory for the memory banks) that she got on the pill!
> 
> Now if there was a safe place in school where I could have got condoms without anyone knowing, I probably would have. Same with my girlfriend and the pill!
> 
> Look I have a daughter (very young one) and it pains me to think that she might be tempted in highschool. I honestly pray that she stays pure until she gets married in her late 20s (after college). But I am a realist. Trust me I am going to preach abstinence big time and that all teenage boys are dogs, but I will have my wife (I don't think I can have those conversations with her) about safe sex! Realism is better than fanatism. OK I official grossed myself out and scared the hell out of myself!



Way back in highschool, some idiot girl tried to tell me that if you were 18 and still a virgin, you were "over the hill".  I asked her "Who says that?"  She tried to tell me everyone does.  I said "I don't say that, do you say that?"  When challenged she said "No"  and agree with me that it was a stupid saying.

I was a virgin until after college, by CHOICE.  I chose to save myself for the man I was going to marry.  When I started college, my mother and both my sisters offered to help me get birth control pills.  I agree with the safe sex lecture, I just think it should be honest.  Condoms are not 100% and 1/3 of all new aids patients got aids while using condoms.  I think it's important that your daughter know that and that it's more important for her to KNOW her partner before having sex with him.  These one night stands they have on tv are for the stupid and they really should show the after affects..pregnancies and stds.


----------



## concerned

Againsheila said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And then you have the guys that want the baby and the woman still aborts.  Face it, in this case, women have all the rights, guys have none.  If she has the baby, he's forced to pay child support even if he didn't want the baby.  She can abort the baby even if he does want the baby.  Nope, it's not fair.  Women are the only ones who can decide legally not to be a parent AFTER conception.
> 
> My biggest gripe is that the deciding factor on whether it's a baby or a fetus is strictly at the mother's choosing.
Click to expand...



Your right the mans choice is at the time of conception and deciding to take the risk knowing possible consequences.


----------



## AllieBaba

I got pregnant while using a condom.
My best friend and my sister in law got pregnant while on the pill.


----------



## AllieBaba

My sister got pregnant using a diaphram.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.  You're not worth it.  Calling me a 'rug muncher' isn't worthy of a lawsuit.  It just demonstrate that when you lose your temper with lesbians you tend to use angry slurs.  Your homophobia shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trt to be accurate. i called you a *rug*muncher-you know, like a carpetgobbler.
> i don't lose my temper, but you keep whining about it if it makes you feel better. i'm laughing at you, you buffoon, and *the fact that your gay menas less than nothing to me*. is this starting to sink in yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, it means nothing--that's because you're a liar.
> 
> *rug muncher*:
> 
> 1. A person who performs cunninlingus; a cunnilinctor . See cunnilinctor or cunnilinctrice for synonyms.
> 2. *Disparaging appellation for a lesbian . *
> 
> 
> 
> that why you had to forward my pms to all your friends for a laugh.  Is that starting to sink in yet?
Click to expand...


oh oh.....i guess i belong to that club.....and guess what.....there is a long line of guys behind me....real long.....


----------



## Harry Dresden

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt I'm hetero, I just did some things in the past that I wouldn't have done if I was sober. I'll pick it up with you later, it's getting harder and harder to type anything coherent. Thank God for red underlined squigglies or this would all be complete gibberish like I posted last night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you've no doubt you're heterosexual, why are you interested in the sex life of someoone who is a complete stranger to you.
> 
> Why are you interested in lesbian sex?
> 
> I suggest watching some movies.  Maybe it just turns you on and you and your boyfriend can watch some and make nice vanilla heterosexual sex.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No... it doesn't turn me on... I don't think... er... maybe.
> 
> I was going to do this between just us but since you bring it up and I don't give a fuck...
> 
> I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.
> 
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> 
> I like the way boys smell. Girls semms I don't know artificial to me, cos maybe I know the work they put in but I know how boys are they just ARE so it's like all so real.
> 
> I dunno does any of this make sense? It doen't to me.
Click to expand...


look now im popping a woody reading this shit,and then i see Amandas avitar...............................................................................................................


----------



## catzmeow

AllieBaba said:


> pearls of wisdom



Is that a new euphemism for boobs?


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> I'd hyperventilate or die in the midwest.



Well, hello Princess Hyperbole of the Republic of Dramalia.


----------



## Sky Dancer

You bet, catz.  If you want to banish me to hell send me to the midwest.


----------



## Againsheila

Echo Zulu said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame. Did Anne Coulter write it?
> 
> I think if your daughter respects you, she will respect your opinion. Also, if she respects herself, there is less sex with boys just to validate your self worth.
> 
> 
> So, is it true what they say?
> 
> _Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing. Obviously you've never worked with women and girls who have absent or loser fathers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you Allie, how sweet of you to say that!
> 
> No, I am just raising a daughter whose father has choosen not to be in her life since she was 2, so I think I DO know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Yes,  boys and girls need a father and a mother, but sometimes life doesn't work out that way. Do you know any single parents Allie?
Click to expand...


Yes, a child raised by two parents does better on every measurable level than a child raised by one parent.  I think it's important to accept that fact.  I also think it's important to realize that some people are single parents, not by choice, and they are doing the best they can.  A child without a father in the home also does better if there is a father figure in their life, grandpa, neighbor, whatever.  And yes, some single parents can overcome the handicap of being a single parent and do wonders with their kids, but it's not easy nor is it a given.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing. Obviously you've never worked with women and girls who have absent or loser fathers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Allie, how sweet of you to say that!
> 
> No, I am just raising a daughter whose father has choosen not to be in her life since she was 2, so I think I DO know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Yes,  boys and girls need a father and a mother, but sometimes life doesn't work out that way. Do you know any single parents Allie?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, a child raised by two parents does better on every measurable level than a child raised by one parent.  I think it's important to accept that fact.  I also think it's important to realize that some people are single parents, not by choice, and they are doing the best they can.  A child without a father in the home also does better if there is a father figure in their life, grandpa, neighbor, whatever.  And yes, some single parents can overcome the handicap of being a single parent and do wonders with their kids, but it's not easy nor is it a given.
Click to expand...

Nor is it a given that two parents in an unhappy marriage can overcome that handicap and provide a good home and good examples. 
Father figures need not be fathers. Even in homes with a father, the father figure is not necessarily the father. Grandfathers, older brothers, uncles even a teacher can fill that role.


----------



## Againsheila

Anguille said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Allie, how sweet of you to say that!
> 
> No, I am just raising a daughter whose father has choosen not to be in her life since she was 2, so I think I DO know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Yes,  boys and girls need a father and a mother, but sometimes life doesn't work out that way. Do you know any single parents Allie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a child raised by two parents does better on every measurable level than a child raised by one parent.  I think it's important to accept that fact.  I also think it's important to realize that some people are single parents, not by choice, and they are doing the best they can.  A child without a father in the home also does better if there is a father figure in their life, grandpa, neighbor, whatever.  And yes, some single parents can overcome the handicap of being a single parent and do wonders with their kids, but it's not easy nor is it a given.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nor is it a given that two parents in an unhappy marriage can overcome that handicap and provide a good home and good examples.
> Father figures need not be fathers. Even in homes with a father, the father figure is not necessarily the father. Grandfathers, older brothers, uncles even a teacher can fill that role.
Click to expand...


No, it's not a given, but it is a rule.  There are always exceptions to the rule, but they are just that, exceptions.


----------



## catzmeow

Againsheila said:


> Yes, a child raised by two parents does better on every measurable level than a child raised by one parent.  I think it's important to accept that fact.  I also think it's important to realize that some people are single parents, not by choice, and they are doing the best they can.  A child without a father in the home also does better if there is a father figure in their life, grandpa, neighbor, whatever.  And yes, some single parents can overcome the handicap of being a single parent and do wonders with their kids, but it's not easy nor is it a given.



This is exactly true.  I am a single mom, and I have great kids, but there is no question that it puts my kids more at risk to have a (mostly) absent father who is not very involved in their lives.

It is a myth that a single parent can do as well at the job as two parents could, and I'm saying that as someone who does the job daily.  It is MUCH, MUCH easier when there are two parents.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> Nor is it a given that two parents in an unhappy marriage can overcome that handicap and provide a good home and good examples.
> Father figures need not be fathers. Even in homes with a father, the father figure is not necessarily the father. Grandfathers, older brothers, uncles even a teacher can fill that role.



In almost every measure, kids raised in a single parent home are more at risk for anti-social and negative behaviors.  Pretending otherwise doesn't help.

Having said that:  shit happens.  You deal with the hand of cards you're dealt.  But, it doesn't do anyone any favors, least of all single moms (of which I am one), to pretend that it isn't a deficit to not have a two-parent home.

If you really have questions about that, I'd encourage you to read "The Culture of Divorce," which looks at literally hundreds of studies on the impact of divorce on children.  In almost EVERY study, kids do better with both parents, even when there is a high level of conflict in the home, than they do with just one parent.

It is what it is.  I know that the prevailing viewpoint is that one parent is just as good as two.  The problem is that this viewpoint is not validated by research, even though it makes us feel better.


----------



## Againsheila

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor is it a given that two parents in an unhappy marriage can overcome that handicap and provide a good home and good examples.
> Father figures need not be fathers. Even in homes with a father, the father figure is not necessarily the father. Grandfathers, older brothers, uncles even a teacher can fill that role.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In almost every measure, kids raised in a single parent home are more at risk for anti-social and negative behaviors.  Pretending otherwise doesn't help.
> 
> Having said that:  shit happens.  You deal with the hand of cards you're dealt.  But, it doesn't do anyone any favors, least of all single moms (of which I am one), to pretend that it isn't a deficit to not have a two-parent home.
> 
> If you really have questions about that, I'd encourage you to read "The Culture of Divorce," which looks at literally hundreds of studies on the impact of divorce on children.  In almost EVERY study, kids do better with both parents, even when there is a high level of conflict in the home, than they do with just one parent.
> 
> It is what it is.  I know that the prevailing viewpoint is that one parent is just as good as two.  The problem is that this viewpoint is not validated by research, even though it makes us feel better.
Click to expand...


I'd rep you for this one too, but it won't let me.


----------



## Anguille

The ratio of children to parents is a major factor. I think Echo Zulu is a great parent, her daughter is enjoying an excellent home life and I don't think that family is any exception to any "rule".

Family means more than some textbook formula.


----------



## Agnapostate

GHook93 said:


> I think we should teach girls and boys (separately) that its best to wait and tell them the horrors of teenage pregnancy.



I don't know of much basis for making that claim. I've thoroughly mentioned this before, so it will be undoubtedly repetitive, but seeing as I was never rebutted the last time by our resident "expert" on studies and what not...

Many studies on teenage pregnancy and childbearing commit several critical methodological errors in that they fail to measure external environmental factors of different women who gave birth in their teenage years, one of the most critical of these being their family background. Researchers Geronimus and Korenman have conducted an analysis of the available data without committing this critical error, and thus find that the the "costs" of teenage childbearing are drastically overstated.


The Socioeconomic Costs of Teen Childbearing Reconsidered



> Teen childbearing is commonly belied to cause long-term socioeconomic disadvantages for mothers and their children. However, earlier cross-sectional studies may have inadequately accounted for marked differences in family backgrounds among women who have first births at different ages. We present new estimates that take into account unmeasured family background heterogeneity by comparing sisters who timed their first births at different ages. *In two of the three data sets we examine, sister comparisons suggest that biases from family background heterogeneity are important, and, therefore, that earlier studies may have overstated the consequences of teen childbearing.*



To underscore this point even further, I would also point to an interesting study conducted for the federal white paper, Kids Having Kids, that did not fall into the trap of committing several methodological errors of the nature that other studies on teenage pregnancy do.



> In Kids Having Kids, (my note: this is an oxymoron) researchers Hotz, Sanders, and McElroy used a new and innovative research approach that potentially controls for individual risk factors that cannot be directly measured and that can potentially lead to misleading (biased) estimates of the impact of a mothers age at birth. This new approach used a natural experimentthat is, a group of women who became pregnant and had a birth as a teen are compared to a group of women who became pregnant as a teen but had a miscarriageas a way to approximate the results of a random assignment to having a teen birth. While there are concerns about sample sizes and other related measurement issues in this particular application, the Hotz et al. approach has substantial value in measuring true causal impacts and its results have become the research standard at this point and they are used here for that reason (pp 20, 22).



Moreover, while reviewing Hotz et al., it is curious to note that their study goes even further than that of Geronimus and Korenman in rebutting the claims that teenage pregnancy is a cause of numerous socioeconomic problems. In fact, Hotz et al. found the *precise opposite* to be true.



> Our major finding is that many of the apparent negative consequences of teenage child bearing on the subsequent socioeconomic attainment of teen mothers are much smaller than those found in studies that use alternative methodologies to identify the causal effects of teenage childbearing. *We also find evidence that teenage mothers earn more in the labor market at older ages than they would have earned if they had delayed their births.*



This point is emphasized and re-emphasized repeatedly, highlighting just how great a contradiction of the "usual wisdom" it is, and how woefully inadequate that "usual wisdom" becomes when methodological errors used to find it are uncovered.



> Our results suggest that much of the concern that has been registered regarding teenage childbearing is misplaced, at least based on its consequences for the subsequent educational and economic attainment of teen mothers. In particular, our estimates imply that the poor outcomes attained by such women cannot be attributed, in a causal sense, primarily to their decision to begin their childbearing at an early age. Rather, it appears that these outcomes are more the result of social and economic circumstances than they are the result of the early childbearing of these women. Furthermore, our estimates suggest that simply delaying their childbearing would not greatly enhance their educational attainment or subsequent earnings or affect their family structureFor most outcomes, the adverse consequences of early childbearing are short-lived. *For annual hours of work and earnings, we find that a teen mother would have lower levels of each at older ages if they had delayed their childbearing.*



They determine that teenage childbearing may in fact function as an economic strategy in some aspects.



> Concentrating their childbearing at early ages may prove to be more compatible with their labor market career options than postponing their childbearing to older ages would beThe magnitudes of these estimated effects of teenage childbearing on subsequent labor market earnings are sizeable. Over the ages of 21 through 35, teen mothers earned an average $7,917 per year (in 1994 dollars). *Based on the All Covariates estimates in Table 6, teen mothers would have earned an average of 31 percent less per year if they had delayed their childbearing.*



It is also critical to note that because of the innovative research method that it uses, Hotz et al. does not fall prey to the numerous methodological issues mentioned by Geronimus and Korenman.



> In this study, we have used an alternative and innovative strategy to estimate the causal effects associated with teenage childbearing in the U.S. In particular, we have focused on women who first become pregnant as teenagers and employ a natural experiment to obtain a more comparable,and plausible, comparison group with which to derive estimates of counterfactual outcomes for teen mothers. Our results suggest that much of the concern that has been registered regarding teenage childbearing is misplaced, at least based on its consequences for the subsequent educational and economic attainment of teen mothers. In particular, our estimates imply that the poor outcomes attained by such women cannot be attributed, in a causal sense, primarily to their decision to begin their childbearing at an early age. Rather, it appears that these outcomes are more the result of social and economic circumstances than they are the result of the early childbearing of these women. Furthermore, our estimates suggest that simply delaying their childbearing would not greatly enhance their educational attainment or subsequent earnings or affect their family structure.



Hence, I would question the veracity of the "studies" typically released in regards to the "effects" of teenage pregnancy.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> I think Echo Zulu is a great parent, her daughter is enjoying an excellent home life and I don't think that family is any exception to any "rule".



You're a sloppy thinker, Anguille.  This isn't personal.  

I'm absolutely certain that Echo Zulu is a great mom.  Frankly, I'm a great mom.  But, having two parents in a home provides greater balance and stability than having one parent.  It also makes it less likely that the family will struggle economically.  Having two parents allows the parents to spell each other and provide relief.  Two perspectives, rather than one, allows for greater effectiveness in problem-solving.  And, research studies have found that girls with absent fathers often compensate for that missing relationship through precocious sexual experimentation.  Boys with missing fathers may have identity issues about becoming a man.

None of that means that single parents can't effectively raise children.  It DOES mean that it is more difficult.  And, having a single parent IS a risk factor (Hawkins & Catellano, et. al.) for many high-risk behaviors.

Furthermore, children raised in single parent homes are at a SUBSTANTIALLY greater risk of sexual abuse by a boyfriend or male companion of their mother.

Again, on the personal level, I know many GREAT single parents.  I consider myself a great mom.  

BUT, I also know what the research says.  Multiple studies over decades have found that kids in 1-parent homes are, on average, less successful than kids in 2-parent homes, for a variety of reasons.

It is what it is.


----------



## Andrew2382

Amanda said:


> No... it doesn't turn me on... I don't think... er... maybe.
> 
> I was going to do this between just us but since you bring it up and I don't give a fuck...
> 
> I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.
> 
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> 
> I like the way boys smell. Girls semms I don't know artificial to me, cos maybe I know the work they put in but I know how boys are they just ARE so it's like all so real.
> 
> I dunno does any of this make sense? It doen't to me.




Lesbian stories are usually dismissed around here unless you provide some pics.


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Echo Zulu is a great parent, her daughter is enjoying an excellent home life and I don't think that family is any exception to any "rule".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're a sloppy thinker, Anguille.  This isn't personal.
> 
> I'm absolutely certain that Echo Zulu is a great mom.  Frankly, I'm a great mom.  But, having two parents in a home provides greater balance and stability than having one parent.  It also makes it less likely that the family will struggle economically.  Having two parents allows the parents to spell each other and provide relief.  Two perspectives, rather than one, allows for greater effectiveness in problem-solving.  And, research studies have found that girls with absent fathers often compensate for that missing relationship through precocious sexual experimentation.  Boys with missing fathers may have identity issues about becoming a man.
> 
> None of that means that single parents can't effectively raise children.  It DOES mean that it is more difficult.  And, having a single parent IS a risk factor (Hawkins & Catellano, et. al.) for many high-risk behaviors.
> 
> Furthermore, children raised in single parent homes are at a SUBSTANTIALLY greater risk of sexual abuse by a boyfriend or male companion of their mother.
> 
> Again, on the personal level, I know many GREAT single parents.  I consider myself a great mom.
> 
> BUT, I also know what the research says.  Multiple studies over decades have found that kids in 1-parent homes are, on average, less successful than kids in 2-parent homes, for a variety of reasons.
> 
> It is what it is.
Click to expand...


And you are what you are, catz.


----------



## AllieBaba

Modbert said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good question.
> 
> Why IS it the man's responsibility, but the woman's choice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I wonder.
> 
> What I really love is the women who lie not only to the guy but in a court of law to the judge on whether the kid that occurred in the marriage was really his.
> 
> So because the guy didn't distrust his wife enough to get a DNA test in the first year, he's stuck paying child support for whatever kids occurred in said marriage for the next 18 years.
> 
> And the court system actually helps the women do such a thing. By threatening to throw the guy in jail, take away his license among other things,etc if he doesn't pay.
Click to expand...



News flash. Be careful who you marry, wait until you're married to have sex, and face the fact that once you are married, hers become yours, regardless of whether or not they really are.

If you have a problem with that, then hell yeah, get a paternity test for every kid she has while she's with you. Sounds like a great relationship.


----------



## sealybobo

This is just another topic where the GOP's position is unrealistic/wrong.  Gay rights, they are wrong.  Free markets where corporations police themselves?  Give even more tax breaks to the rich when giving them tax breaks didn't work in the first place?  Suggesting that Iraq was going according to plan, or that it was for the good of America (and not just 1% of us)

Newt Gingrich admitted that the GOP's position on Global warming is because they don't want the regulations or taxes that will come with going green.  So we know why they lied about that one.

The GOP advocate abstenence only because it is the position that religous right wingers have.  Otherwise, even the GOP knows that it doesn't work.  But Palin has to promote abstenence only becuse the rapid dogs (pitbulls with lipstick) that vote for her insist.


----------



## Andrew2382

waiting until you're married to screw each other has always been the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.

Lets be serious

Fucking is a major part of Marriage....its why one gets married to begin with...

Marriages meaning is to be someone you love so you enjoy each other's company and can now bang freely without the bullshit of dating and meeting new people.

What happens if you get married, then bang on the honeymoon and despise it.  The guy gets the girl who only wants missionary, the girl gets the guy who wants to launch one onto her grill.  It could get ugly.

Bang while you are dating and engaged, and the rest will fall into place

Sincerely,

The love doctor


----------



## Andrew2382

sealybobo said:


> This is just another topic where the GOP's position is unrealistic/wrong.  Gay rights, they are wrong.  Free markets where corporations police themselves?  Give even more tax breaks to the rich when giving them tax breaks didn't work in the first place?  Suggesting that Iraq was going according to plan, or that it was for the good of America (and not just 1% of us)
> 
> Newt Gingrich admitted that the GOP's position on Global warming is because they don't want the regulations or taxes that will come with going green.  So we know why they lied about that one.
> 
> The GOP advocate abstenence only because it is the position that religous right wingers have.  Otherwise, even the GOP knows that it doesn't work.  But Palin has to promote abstenence only becuse the rapid dogs (pitbulls with lipstick) that vote for her insist.



Sealy, just because your idea of Abstenence means using your left hand when you're a righty doesn't mean you have the right to come into a conversation  where just like every other thread you have no idea what you are talking about


----------



## Againsheila

Andrew2382 said:


> waiting until you're married to screw each other has always been the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.
> 
> Lets be serious
> 
> Fucking is a major part of Marriage....its why one gets married to begin with...
> 
> Marriages meaning is to be someone you love so you enjoy each other's company and can now bang freely without the bullshit of dating and meeting new people.
> 
> What happens if you get married, then bang on the honeymoon and despise it.  The guy gets the girl who only wants missionary, the girl gets the guy who wants to launch one onto her grill.  It could get ugly.
> 
> Bang while you are dating and engaged, and the rest will fall into place
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> The love doctor



Some love doctor, if you are in love, you'll work it out.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> And you are what you are, catz.




And you are what you, anguille: A shallow, passive-aggressive nitwit.


----------



## Andrew2382

Againsheila said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> waiting until you're married to screw each other has always been the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.
> 
> Lets be serious
> 
> Fucking is a major part of Marriage....its why one gets married to begin with...
> 
> Marriages meaning is to be someone you love so you enjoy each other's company and can now bang freely without the bullshit of dating and meeting new people.
> 
> What happens if you get married, then bang on the honeymoon and despise it.  The guy gets the girl who only wants missionary, the girl gets the guy who wants to launch one onto her grill.  It could get ugly.
> 
> Bang while you are dating and engaged, and the rest will fall into place
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> The love doctor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some love doctor, if you are in love, you'll work it out.
Click to expand...


I don't think so...because if it's bad sex then its going to lead to frustration and tension, which leads to arguements then fights then divorce.

Have you ever been pissed off after a good lay?


----------



## catzmeow

Andrew2382 said:


> I don't think so...because if it's bad sex then its going to lead to frustration and tension, which leads to arguements then fights then divorce.
> 
> Have you ever been pissed off after a good lay?



I'm certainly not going to buy a car without a test drive...I wouldn't commit to spend decades with a person without taking him for a spin, either.


----------



## Againsheila

Andrew2382 said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> waiting until you're married to screw each other has always been the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.
> 
> Lets be serious
> 
> Fucking is a major part of Marriage....its why one gets married to begin with...
> 
> Marriages meaning is to be someone you love so you enjoy each other's company and can now bang freely without the bullshit of dating and meeting new people.
> 
> What happens if you get married, then bang on the honeymoon and despise it.  The guy gets the girl who only wants missionary, the girl gets the guy who wants to launch one onto her grill.  It could get ugly.
> 
> Bang while you are dating and engaged, and the rest will fall into place
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> The love doctor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some love doctor, if you are in love, you'll work it out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think so...because if it's bad sex then its going to lead to frustration and tension, which leads to arguements then fights then divorce.
> 
> Have you ever been pissed off after a good lay?
Click to expand...


If sex is bad, get help.  There is help out there.  My husband and I haven't always been great in bed together, it took work, and getting to know each other.  If you aren't willing to work it out, DON'T MARRY the person.

If you get pissed off  every time something doesn't go right, you're not the type of man I would marry, heck anyone would be a fool to marry you.


----------



## Skull Pilot

jillian said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> who cares what a 17 year old girl has to say?
> 
> humans have been fucking and having kids sine the dawn of time.  SO WHAT!
> 
> Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake.  Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
Click to expand...


And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.

people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.

After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.

Pathetic.

PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.


----------



## Andrew2382

Againsheila said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some love doctor, if you are in love, you'll work it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so...because if it's bad sex then its going to lead to frustration and tension, which leads to arguements then fights then divorce.
> 
> Have you ever been pissed off after a good lay?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If sex is bad, get help.  There is help out there.  My husband and I haven't always been great in bed together, it took work, and getting to know each other.  If you aren't willing to work it out, DON'T MARRY the person.
> 
> If you get pissed off  every time something doesn't go right, you're not the type of man I would marry, heck anyone would be a fool to marry you.
Click to expand...


If you need help to make sex good then you have serious problems....if you need to pay someone 500 bucks an hour to bend over a few times instead of laying on your back, then i would be happy to be your therapist.

Sex is a major part of marriage, I would hate to date someone for years marry them and then realize it was boring to have sex with her.


I guess you are calling my wife a fool because we have good sex


----------



## Ravi

If the father takes custody of the child, the mother is also obligated to pay child support kids.


----------



## AllieBaba

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Echo Zulu is a great parent, her daughter is enjoying an excellent home life and I don't think that family is any exception to any "rule".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're a sloppy thinker, Anguille.  This isn't personal.
> 
> I'm absolutely certain that Echo Zulu is a great mom.  Frankly, I'm a great mom.  But, having two parents in a home provides greater balance and stability than having one parent.  It also makes it less likely that the family will struggle economically.  Having two parents allows the parents to spell each other and provide relief.  Two perspectives, rather than one, allows for greater effectiveness in problem-solving.  And, research studies have found that girls with absent fathers often compensate for that missing relationship through precocious sexual experimentation.  Boys with missing fathers may have identity issues about becoming a man.
> 
> None of that means that single parents can't effectively raise children.  It DOES mean that it is more difficult.  And, having a single parent IS a risk factor (Hawkins & Catellano, et. al.) for many high-risk behaviors.
> 
> Furthermore, children raised in single parent homes are at a SUBSTANTIALLY greater risk of sexual abuse by a boyfriend or male companion of their mother.
> 
> Again, on the personal level, I know many GREAT single parents.  I consider myself a great mom.
> 
> BUT, I also know what the research says.  Multiple studies over decades have found that kids in 1-parent homes are, on average, less successful than kids in 2-parent homes, for a variety of reasons.
> 
> It is what it is.
Click to expand...


You are absolutely correct. Not only are they at a much higher risk for sexual abuse, they're at a much higher risk for physical abuse and DEATH. Add that to the immeasurable harm it does children to view their mothers as sexual beings if the mother is sexually active, particularly with multiple partners, during their childhood. 

I get  livid when I hear some single, self centered twit whining about being "alone" and thinking they're entitled to "having some fun" when they've already had their fun and have the kids to prove it. A whole generation of women fell for that crap and now we are into the second generation of wacked-out weirdo kids to show what a really great idea it is to put your own "fun" before your kids.

At least the ones who survived are weirdo and wacked out...drug addicts and gang members, lifelong welfare recipients and mentally ill, murderers, child abusers and worse.

The exception are the women who for whatever reason find themselves raising their kids alone and SACRIFICE their own fun to focus completely on the kids. Kids do not fare well if they only have one parent and that parent shows them every day that they aren't enough for her, and she is willing to bring strangers into the house to exert power over them.

Whoops, got distracted...


----------



## AllieBaba

The primary reason we have abortion is that liberal judges decided to make law themselves, illegally, and legalize the killing of unwanted babies.

Since that red letter day, abortions have steadily increased, child abuse and child murder have increased, poverty and welfare have exploded exponentially, and children are viewed as "punishment" and valueless, particularly if they belong to a large family.

In addition, we have paved the way for custom children, to be produced and harvested at will, as well as wonderful things like euthanasia, forced sterilization....which has been supported by the most foul of despots the world over, including Hitler and Mao Tse Yung. In the Netherlands, non-consent euthanasia is the order of the day, and babies with disabilities are euthanized.

It's a brave new world. Hope you enjoy it, all you filthy pigs who think it's a sign of "intelligence" or "civilized" behavior to practice eugenics.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> having a single parent IS a risk factor (Hawkins & Catellano, et. al.) for many high-risk behaviors.


Link?


----------



## Agnapostate

AllieBaba said:


> The primary reason we have abortion is that liberal judges decided to make law themselves, illegally, and legalize the killing of unwanted babies.
> 
> Since that red letter day, abortions have steadily increased, child abuse and child murder have increased, poverty and welfare have exploded exponentially, and children are viewed as "punishment" and valueless, particularly if they belong to a large family.



No wonder it's been raining so much in SoCal...Jesus must be crying.


----------



## sealybobo

Andrew2382 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is just another topic where the GOP's position is unrealistic/wrong.  Gay rights, they are wrong.  Free markets where corporations police themselves?  Give even more tax breaks to the rich when giving them tax breaks didn't work in the first place?  Suggesting that Iraq was going according to plan, or that it was for the good of America (and not just 1% of us)
> 
> Newt Gingrich admitted that the GOP's position on Global warming is because they don't want the regulations or taxes that will come with going green.  So we know why they lied about that one.
> 
> The GOP advocate abstenence only because it is the position that religous right wingers have.  Otherwise, even the GOP knows that it doesn't work.  But Palin has to promote abstenence only becuse the rapid dogs (pitbulls with lipstick) that vote for her insist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sealy, just because your idea of Abstenence means using your left hand when you're a righty doesn't mean you have the right to come into a conversation  where just like every other thread you have no idea what you are talking about
Click to expand...


How long did it take you to type that while simultaniously giving yourself a Dutch Windmill?


----------



## Againsheila

Andrew2382 said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so...because if it's bad sex then its going to lead to frustration and tension, which leads to arguements then fights then divorce.
> 
> Have you ever been pissed off after a good lay?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If sex is bad, get help.  There is help out there.  My husband and I haven't always been great in bed together, it took work, and getting to know each other.  If you aren't willing to work it out, DON'T MARRY the person.
> 
> If you get pissed off  every time something doesn't go right, you're not the type of man I would marry, heck anyone would be a fool to marry you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you need help to make sex good then you have serious problems....if you need to pay someone 500 bucks an hour to bend over a few times instead of laying on your back, then i would be happy to be your therapist.
> 
> Sex is a major part of marriage, I would hate to date someone for years marry them and then realize it was boring to have sex with her.
> 
> 
> I guess you are calling my wife a fool because we have good sex
Click to expand...


No, I'm calling your wife a fool for marrying a man that gets angry if he doesn't have a good lay.  Makes one think your wife is faking it just so she doesn't get yelled at.


----------



## Agnapostate

Oh no she di'nt!


----------



## Ravi

Skull Pilot said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
Click to expand...

If a woman is pregnant whatever she does is dealing with the consequences of her behavior.

I'm still aghast that you didn't think having a vasectomy was any of your wife's business.


----------



## Andrew2382

Againsheila said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> If sex is bad, get help.  There is help out there.  My husband and I haven't always been great in bed together, it took work, and getting to know each other.  If you aren't willing to work it out, DON'T MARRY the person.
> 
> If you get pissed off  every time something doesn't go right, you're not the type of man I would marry, heck anyone would be a fool to marry you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you need help to make sex good then you have serious problems....if you need to pay someone 500 bucks an hour to bend over a few times instead of laying on your back, then i would be happy to be your therapist.
> 
> Sex is a major part of marriage, I would hate to date someone for years marry them and then realize it was boring to have sex with her.
> 
> 
> I guess you are calling my wife a fool because we have good sex
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm calling your wife a fool for marrying a man that gets angry if he doesn't have a good lay.  Makes one think your wife is faking it just so she doesn't get yelled at.
Click to expand...


Getting upset because of one bad time in bed is not what I am talking about you nitwit.

However...15 years of bad sex woul dbe something that one could get upset over..

Apparently, you are bad in bed...so tell you what pay me 300 bucks an hour and I will counsel you and your man


----------



## Agnapostate

I thought it was his ex-wife. Regardless, if women can conceal abortions from men, it stands to reason that men can conceal vasectomies from women.


----------



## Ravi

Agnapostate said:


> I thought it was his ex-wife. Regardless, if women can conceal abortions from men, it stands to reason that men can conceal vasectomies from women.


True enough. But it certainly doesn't make for a good marriage. Too control-freakish.


----------



## AllieBaba

Agnapostate said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> The primary reason we have abortion is that liberal judges decided to make law themselves, illegally, and legalize the killing of unwanted babies.
> 
> Since that red letter day, abortions have steadily increased, child abuse and child murder have increased, poverty and welfare have exploded exponentially, and children are viewed as "punishment" and valueless, particularly if they belong to a large family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder it's been raining so much in SoCal...Jesus must be crying.
Click to expand...


What a splendid example of the "better lives" everyone is supposed to enjoy thanks to the butchery of children.

Southern Cali. What a lovely place. The people are so upstanding, the economy is so great...and gosh, there aren't ANY welfare recipients or abused children there....

Yay, abortion!


----------



## Care4all

Skull Pilot said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
Click to expand...


do other people get to hold you accountable for your personal actions?


----------



## Agnapostate

AllieBaba said:


> What a splendid example of the "better lives" everyone is supposed to enjoy thanks to the butchery of children.
> 
> Southern Cali. What a lovely place. The people are so upstanding, the economy is so great...and gosh, there aren't ANY welfare recipients or abused children there....
> 
> Yay, abortion!



Jesus doesn't like it when you say naughty things about Rick Warren.


----------



## AllieBaba

That might be true if I had said or implied anything about Rick Warren.

But since you brought him up, here's some food for thought:

"Dr. Rick Warren is passionate about attacking what he calls the five &#8220;Global Goliaths&#8221; &#8211; spiritual emptiness, egocentric leadership, extreme poverty, pandemic disease, and illiteracy/poor education."

Rick Warren

I think he and I are on the same page, so I don't think Jesus is mad at me at all. You might want to take a peek at those global goliaths and see how many you have, and how many you support.


----------



## Agnapostate

Really? Jesus is a pretty angry guy, according to the removed sections of the book of Mark, to say nothing of his anger in a pre-incarnate appearance in the book of Exodus.


----------



## Ravi

Care4all said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> do other people get to hold you accountable for your personal actions?
Click to expand...

Oh my, that was a good question.


----------



## Harry Dresden

sealybobo said:


> This is just another topic where the GOP's position is unrealistic/wrong.  Gay rights, they are wrong.  Free markets where corporations police themselves?  Give even more tax breaks to the rich when giving them tax breaks didn't work in the first place?  Suggesting that Iraq was going according to plan, or that it was for the good of America (and not just 1% of us)
> 
> Newt Gingrich admitted that the GOP's position on Global warming is because they don't want the regulations or taxes that will come with going green.  So we know why they lied about that one.
> 
> The GOP advocate abstenence only because it is the position that religous right wingers have.  Otherwise, even the GOP knows that it doesn't work.  But Palin has to promote abstenence only becuse the rapid dogs (pitbulls with lipstick) that vote for her insist.



we were having a nice chat about the sexes and along comes a guy who has to throw fucking politics into it.....


----------



## Harry Dresden

AllieBaba said:


> Southern Cali. What a lovely place. The people are so upstanding, the economy is so great...and gosh, there aren't ANY welfare recipients or abused children there....



why thank you Ali......just dont let this get out....


----------



## Againsheila

Andrew2382 said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you need help to make sex good then you have serious problems....if you need to pay someone 500 bucks an hour to bend over a few times instead of laying on your back, then i would be happy to be your therapist.
> 
> Sex is a major part of marriage, I would hate to date someone for years marry them and then realize it was boring to have sex with her.
> 
> 
> I guess you are calling my wife a fool because we have good sex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm calling your wife a fool for marrying a man that gets angry if he doesn't have a good lay.  Makes one think your wife is faking it just so she doesn't get yelled at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Getting upset because of one bad time in bed is not what I am talking about you nitwit.
> 
> However...15 years of bad sex woul dbe something that one could get upset over..
> 
> Apparently, you are bad in bed...so tell you what pay me 300 bucks an hour and I will counsel you and your man
Click to expand...


It sure sounded like that's what you were talking about.


----------



## Anguille

Agnapostate said:


> I thought it was his ex-wife. Regardless, if women can conceal abortions from men, it stands to reason that men can conceal vasectomies from women.


How does that stand to reason? An abortion does not make a woman sterile. A vasectomy does make a man sterile. I personally think a man should not be required by any law to inform or get consent from his wife or anyone else if he wants a vasectomy. Likewise for a woman. Truthfulness in a marriage is up to the partners involved.


----------



## Agnapostate

The consequences remain the same since both means result in an end of a lack of childbirth without the informed knowledge of one's partner.


----------



## Amanda

Andrew2382 said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> No... it doesn't turn me on... I don't think... er... maybe.
> 
> I was going to do this between just us but since you bring it up and I don't give a fuck...
> 
> I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.
> 
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> 
> I like the way boys smell. Girls semms I don't know artificial to me, cos maybe I know the work they put in but I know how boys are they just ARE so it's like all so real.
> 
> I dunno does any of this make sense? It doen't to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lesbian stories are usually dismissed around here unless you provide some pics.
Click to expand...


Dismiss away, I wish it hadn't happened.


----------



## Care4all

Ravi said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do other people get to hold you accountable for your personal actions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh my, that was a good question.
Click to expand...

why ty!
hahahahaha!  Then rep me for it beeeeeeech!    you are the BIG Kahuna!!!


----------



## Said1

Agnapostate said:


> The consequences remain the same since both means result in an end of a lack of childbirth without the informed knowledge of one's partner.



Not quite the same. One loses a child but can have another, one can never have a child.


----------



## Ravi

Well, the thing is, women that have abortions aren't saying they don't want children...they are just saying they aren't ready. Having a vasectomy or a tubal is saying you don't want children.

So, why the harsh judgment?


----------



## AllieBaba

They are saying they want to kill their babies is what they're saying.


----------



## Ravi

AllieBaba said:


> They are saying they want to kill their babies is what they're saying.


In your mind they probably are. But that isn't the reality of the situation

Babble, is it really that difficult for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes?


----------



## AllieBaba

You're an idiot. I've been in those shoes, and I've been with many women when they've been at the abortion clinics.

Women get abortions because they want the baby dead. Period. End of story. That's why they choose abortion over adoption.


----------



## Chris

AllieBaba said:


> They are saying they want to kill their babies is what they're saying.



Should every frozen embryo in America be forcibly implanted in a woman?


----------



## AllieBaba

Embryos shouldn't be frozen in the first place, nimrod.


----------



## Chris

AllieBaba said:


> Embryos shouldn't be frozen in the first place, nimrod.



You didn't answer my question.

Should frozen embryos be forcibly implanted in women?


----------



## AllieBaba

No, because embryos shouldn't be frozen, nimrod.

Wouldn't be an issue if you and your ilk hadn't legalized abortion, and decided it was A-OK to make and destroy babies at will to experiment on.


----------



## Agnapostate

Said1 said:


> Not quite the same. One loses a child but can have another, one can never have a child.



That's not necessarily the case, because vasectomies can be reversed.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Ravi said:


> Well, the thing is, women that have abortions aren't saying they don't want children...they are just saying they aren't ready.


then why did, the majority of them anyhow,have unprotected sex?if your not ready you would take the RESPONSIBILITY to use some form of birth control if you must screw.....


----------



## LiveUninhibited

What an amusing and meandering thread. 



Amanda said:


> That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.



Primary reason... not so sure. The primary reason would be people don't see the fetus as a person. It's not like everybody who gets an abortion thinks they're killing somebody for their own convenience. My guess would be most of them don't. It's hard to have a debate about abortion when one side thinks they're talking about choice and the other side think it's about life. The debate should be about whether it's a "person" deserving protection. 



strollingbones said:


> robert...we are not discussing a thing or an it as duckie put it..but a child who is the most innocent of all involved...get over it...control your damned sperm...simple as that...



There is no consensus on whether it is a "child" or not... If there was, there would be no abortion debate.



strollingbones said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> o hell no....if you arent willing to practice safe sex and birth control..then you are just simply too fucking stupid for skin...are you really telling me...men cant control what they do with them sperm...are you that fucking weak?
> 
> 
> 
> no weaker than the woman who can't keep her legs together
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> okay duckie...do you ....or any of you...abs, andy...can i call you andy? or bobby ...do yall have middle names...we in the south like two names...i digress...
> or any of you simply admitting when any woman spreads her legs....you cannot resist?
Click to expand...


It's understandable given that your body tries to convince you that this one act is the end-all-be-all of life, and for good reason evolutionarily. It takes quite a bit to override that unless you have a low sex drive, which I can only be envious of sometimes.
But this isn't really about whether one or a few men personally can control themselves. We just know that many people don't. The Palin daughter may personally have screwed up, but I am glad she sees the fact that abstinence education is unlikely to be effective policy.



Andrew2382 said:


> sex with a condom is awful...all women should be forced to take the pill.



Yeah but the pill doesn't protect against STDs. I'll tell my kids to use a condom until their wedding day. Give them something to be excited about on that day, lol. After I had sex without one I was unwilling to have sex with one. I literally would say no to sex before having sex with a condom.



Againsheila said:


> That means that up to 15% of the time, they fail.....



Not quite. I'd look at perfect-use rates (98%), which means pregnancy over the course of a year. Typical use rates includes people who use condoms inconsistently as well as people who use condoms improperly (reuse = bad).



Sky Dancer said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread makes me wonder if there are any virgins on here.  Anyone?  Maybe I should start a new thread.  Seems a little personal, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Ask Sunni Man to start a 72 virgins thread.  It's a big bennie for suicide bombers.  I just wonder who in their right mind wants to cause a woman pain 72 times to get to heaven?
Click to expand...


Geez there are easier ways to get 72 virgins, like joining a fraternity. Sure you'll have to endure being humiliated for awhile, but then there will be parties filled with debauchery that you will claim not to remember. This reminds me that it&#8217;s kind of odd that a devout Muslim wants to live an afterlife like that. My girl was a virgin till she was 23, and met me. There's nothing wrong with being a virgin until you meet who you want to be with. Makes life simpler, if duller, in the meantime.



Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you're bi, Amanda.  I don't know.  I considered myself bi at your age.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't *want* to tell you, I thought you would understand (maybe) and have some insight (hopefully). I thought you might alleviate my guilt. I really, really don't think I'm bi. I think I do stupid things when I drink too much, I think we can both agree on that.
Click to expand...




Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you interested in lesbian sex?
> I suggest watching some movies.  Maybe it just turns you on and you and your boyfriend can watch some and make nice vanilla heterosexual sex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No... it doesn't turn me on... I don't think... er... maybe.
> I was going to do this between just us but since you bring it up and I don't give a fuck...
> I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> I like the way boys smell. Girls semms I don't know artificial to me, cos maybe I know the work they put in but I know how boys are they just ARE so it's like all so real.
> I dunno does any of this make sense? It doen't to me.
Click to expand...


Based upon how bisexuality has been treated in many pre/non-Christian societies, my guess is most people have a natural inclination towards bisexuality and culture filters it out these days. Though I consider myself completely straight. Point is I really don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s something people should be ashamed of. There&#8217;s nothing wrong with two hot girls kissing. In fact, I think there&#8217;s something very right about it.  As for two guys kissing, that doesn&#8217;t turn me on, but I like seeing people happy.

In more seriousness what can be wrong about two people getting together, having some fun, and not hurting anybody? Geez with lesbian sex you can&#8217;t even make a baby accidently. Harder to get STDs too. 



Sky Dancer said:


> I love men.  I find a number of them attractive.  If I wasn't married, I might consider being with a man.  But it's just not in my cards.



What if your partner was into threesomes?.. My girl isn't bi, and neither am I, or else I might be into that, lol. Sexually I came to the conclusion that no woman could do it all for me physically, so I&#8217;d either have to find a bi girl or find a girl whose personality I cannot live without. I found the latter and I&#8217;m glad for it and I haven't strayed (been together 2 years). I did have a female friend who had a successful guy-girl-girl relationship for at least a few years. 



Modbert said:


> Agnapostate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really can't imagine why people feel the need to question her age. She's as old as she says she is; I don't know why two separate threads were started about that topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because many people don't think that a good looking woman can be both good looking and intelligent.
Click to expand...


I know many counterexamples. One of which I'm with and several of which are her friends. Medical and pharmacy student girls are often hot, for example.



AllieBaba said:


> I find it laughable that you guys are ready to shit yourself over the pearls of wisdom dropping from the lips of an 18 year old.
> 
> What buffoonery.



Why do you assume an 18-year-old has nothing useful to say? I was a better writer when I was 18, after all, as I did it constantly.



> Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder



Not true at all for me. If I&#8217;m interested in the girl, and she has a legit reason for waiting (like being a virgin, not being on birth control, doesn&#8217;t trust me yet, etc.), I&#8217;ll wait. If I only want sex, I won&#8217;t wait too long. That&#8217;s all there is to it. Sad part is there is no easy way to tell which it is unless he stops waiting. The "thrill of the chase" is not a basis for a lasting relationship and frankly I resented girls who played games.



AllieBaba said:


> News flash. Be careful who you marry, wait until you're married to have sex, and face the fact that once you are married, hers become yours, regardless of whether or not they really are.
> 
> If you have a problem with that, then hell yeah, get a paternity test for every kid she has while she's with you. Sounds like a great relationship.



Sounds pretty dull - then again the alternative might not be exciting in a good way. All things in moderation.

Marriage does not prevent infidelity - at least half of people cheat - and relationships need not be about kids.


----------



## KittenKoder

AllieBaba said:


> *No, because embryos shouldn't be frozen*, nimrod.
> 
> Wouldn't be an issue if you and your ilk hadn't legalized abortion, and decided it was A-OK to make and destroy babies at will to experiment on.



I agree with that part ... but only that part. There are still more reasons to legalize abortion than not. The problem is this, you are taken away the god given right to choose, if it is a sinful act then let them choose it and answer to whatever god is real when they die, but to make it illegal (aside from the real world consequences) you will have to answer to taking away that god given right of free will. Even in your own religion, we are SUPPOSE to make our OWN mistakes, it doesn't mean we will all be perfect all the time, it means that we will answer for out actions and not those forced on us, we will also be rewarded for our own actions and not those forced on us. If those who get abortions are truly evil people then shouldn't they be allowed to commit the sin and be punished? Otherwise you are taking on the punishment and allowing them off the hook.


----------



## KittenKoder

The problem with teaching abstinence instead of the rest of sex ed is only in the schools. Most teens will do it anyway and just by telling them it's taboo will make them more eager to try it. I love not having sex anymore, I think it's great, but that's just me. I can never expect everyone else to stop, especially if I tell them to (it's their right). However everyone should know the possible consequences and precautions, but without using the scare tactics many do use. Just information, thus they can make an informed choice in the matter. But once someone becomes an adult, it's their choice and all we can do is hope they learned it already.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Ravi said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If a woman is pregnant whatever she does is dealing with the consequences of her behavior.
> 
> I'm still aghast that you didn't think having a vasectomy was any of your wife's business.
Click to expand...


It was none of her business.  I told her i was doing it and that she had absolutely no say in the matter.  I didn't want any more children.

And again, if she wanted, she could have not told me she was pregnant and had an abortion and i would never have been notified.  Would you be aghast at that?  it happens a lot more than a guy getting a vasectomy without his wife's knowledge.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Care4all said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> do other people get to hold you accountable for your personal actions?
Click to expand...


Do other people foot the bill for the consequences of your personal actions?


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> This is exactly true.  I am a single mom, and I have great kids, but there is no question that it puts my kids more at risk to have a (mostly) absent father who is not very involved in their lives.
> 
> It is a myth that a single parent can do as well at the job as two parents could, and I'm saying that as someone who does the job daily.  It is MUCH, MUCH easier when there are two parents.



Talk about victimology.


----------



## strollingbones

Skull Pilot said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is pregnant whatever she does is dealing with the consequences of her behavior.
> 
> I'm still aghast that you didn't think having a vasectomy was any of your wife's business.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *It was none of her business.  I told her i was doing it and that she had absolutely no say in the matter.  I didn't want any more children.*And again, if she wanted, she could have not told me she was pregnant and had an abortion and i would never have been notified.  Would you be aghast at that?  it happens a lot more than a guy getting a vasectomy without his wife's knowledge.
Click to expand...


hubby did the same thing....thought it was a big hoot to do it the friday before mother's day...i wanted more kids..he did not...simple as this...i refused to have my tubes tied...he had a vas...was he a dick for doing it....o hell yes....but he didnt want to stop me from having kids..he just didnt want any more..once he made that decision it was up to me...stay or go....i stayed....lets see today is his 55th birthday...last time i tossed it in his face...that i wanted more kids...maybe a week ago...does he care...no...i no more had the right to force him to have more kids than he had the right to force me to have or not have kids....we all own our decisions


----------



## Anguille

Skull Pilot said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you make sure the boys involved get their share of the consequences. That is the primary reason we have abortion, guys that won't man up and take responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
Click to expand...

Even a broken clock is right twice a day and so is jillian in this case. Only she's not saying children are punishment, you are.

from your previous post:

_"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.

If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."

What an perfectly asinine statement!! What do we tell these kids as they get older? "The reason you were born was to teach your misbehaving teen mother about sex education?  Now go live with that and be sure to make the mother who didn't want you in the first place miserable. That's your job. And another thing, do what she did and we'll punish you the same way."


----------



## Skull Pilot

Anguille said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> nah...they'd rather punish the harlots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even a broken clock is right twice a day and so is jillian in this case. Only she's not saying children are punishment, you are.
> 
> from your previous post:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> What an perfectly asinine statement!! What do we tell these kids as they get older? "The reason you were born was to teach your misbehaving teen mother about sex education?  Now go live with that and be sure to make the mother who didn't want you in the first place miserable. That's your job. And another thing, do what she did and we'll punish you the same way."
Click to expand...


You think living with the consequences of your actions is punishment?

thank you for proving my point.

And who cares what "these kids" are told when they get older? When you boil it down the "reason" any of us were, are or will be born is because two people had intercourse.  

And please tell me where I said a child was a punishment.  What I said was:

*If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market*

How in your mind does that equal saying a child is punishment?


----------



## Anguille

Agnapostate said:


> The consequences remain the same since both means result in an end of a lack of childbirth without the informed knowledge of one's partner.



The consequences are not the same. In the case of an abortion the possibility of future children still exists. With a vasectomy, it does not. If one is concealed, an abortion or a vasectomy, it certainly may not be good for the marriage but if the purpose of the marriage was to give birth to children, that has not come to a dead end after an abortion.

Truthfullness in a marriage is a standard agreed upon by the married coupple and it is not the responsability of a doctor performing either an abortion or a vasectomy or tubal ligation or whatever medical procedure to enforce whatever standard the couple has agreed to. Nor is it the doctor's right to be so presumtious as to do that. Unless a person has made a living will or guardianship has been awarded to another person, we and we alone make all the decisions regarding our own bodies. 
Any doctor requiring signed aggreements from spouses is over stepping his/her authority.


----------



## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> You're an idiot. I've been in those shoes, and I've been with many women when they've been at the abortion clinics.
> 
> Women get abortions because they want the baby dead. Period. End of story. That's why they choose abortion over adoption.


They are saying they don't want a baby when they choose abortion. Women who give birth to a baby and then give it away even  if they have the means to care for it are saying they don't care if their baby dies in the care of a stranger. I can only understand a woman giving her child up for adoption if she was unable to get an abortion (religious reasons don't really count, religion is a choice) and then because she was truly in dire straits, found a better home for the child than she was able to give to it herself.


----------



## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> No, because embryos shouldn't be frozen, nimrod.
> 
> Wouldn't be an issue if you and your ilk hadn't legalized abortion, and decided it was A-OK to make and destroy babies at will to experiment on.


So you're saying it's okay to defrost all those frozen embryos that shouldn't exist anyway?


----------



## Anguille

Agnapostate said:


> Said1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite the same. One loses a child but can have another, one can never have a child.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not necessarily the case, because vasectomies can be reversed.
Click to expand...

That's not guaranteed and doctors do not recommend vasectomy as temporary birth control.


----------



## Agnapostate

Nor is dilation and evacuation recommended as a form of temporary birth control, for instance.


----------



## Anguille

strollingbones said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is pregnant whatever she does is dealing with the consequences of her behavior.
> 
> I'm still aghast that you didn't think having a vasectomy was any of your wife's business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It was none of her business.  I told her i was doing it and that she had absolutely no say in the matter.  I didn't want any more children.*And again, if she wanted, she could have not told me she was pregnant and had an abortion and i would never have been notified.  Would you be aghast at that?  it happens a lot more than a guy getting a vasectomy without his wife's knowledge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> hubby did the same thing....thought it was a big hoot to do it the friday before mother's day...i wanted more kids..he did not...simple as this...i refused to have my tubes tied...he had a vas...was he a dick for doing it....o hell yes....but he didnt want to stop me from having kids..he just didnt want any more..once he made that decision it was up to me...stay or go....i stayed....lets see today is his 55th birthday...last time i tossed it in his face...that i wanted more kids...maybe a week ago...does he care...no...i no more had the right to force him to have more kids than he had the right to force me to have or not have kids....we all own our decisions
Click to expand...


Great post!  He took a chance on losing you. But he did the responsible thing in the end. Though he should have told you beforehand, I think. 
Of course you could have exerted your right to have kids by artificial insemination or you could have flung a fling in his face. 

Kids come and go, but a marriage can last a lifetime.

I think you and your man must be a hoot to hang around with.


----------



## Anguille

Skull Pilot said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> Even a broken clock is right twice a day and so is jillian in this case. Only she's not saying children are punishment, you are.
> 
> from your previous post:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> What an perfectly asinine statement!! What do we tell these kids as they get older? "The reason you were born was to teach your misbehaving teen mother about sex education?  Now go live with that and be sure to make the mother who didn't want you in the first place miserable. That's your job. And another thing, do what she did and we'll punish you the same way."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You think living with the consequences of your actions is punishment?
> 
> thank you for proving my point.
> 
> And who cares what "these kids" are told when they get older? When you boil it down the "reason" any of us were, are or will be born is because two people had intercourse.
> 
> And please tell me where I said a child was a punishment.  What I said was:
> 
> *If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market*
> 
> How in your mind does that equal saying a child is punishment?
Click to expand...


Not in my mind, but apparently in yours. "fucking mistake".  Is that what you would name your kid?


----------



## Anguille

Agnapostate said:


> Nor is dilation and evacuation recommended as a form of temporary birth control, for instance.



It's no different than the pill in that a woman can ovulate the month immediately following the use of either.

vasectomy and tubal ligation are more similar in their results and the effect on the body than are birth control and abortion.


----------



## Ravi

Skull Pilot said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is folks...the reason this country is going down the shitter.
> 
> people like Jillian actually believe that living with the consequences of your actions is punishment.
> 
> After all there should be absolutely no repercussions for any behavior whatsoever.  No one is responsible for anything because actually holding someone accountable is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> PS the little praying emoticon was wrongly used as i am an atheist. One does not need god to see that holding people accountable for their actions is a good thing and not punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is pregnant whatever she does is dealing with the consequences of her behavior.
> 
> I'm still aghast that you didn't think having a vasectomy was any of your wife's business.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It was none of her business.  I told her i was doing it and that she had absolutely no say in the matter.  I didn't want any more children.
> 
> And again, if she wanted, she could have not told me she was pregnant and had an abortion and i would never have been notified.  *Would you be aghast at that?*  it happens a lot more than a guy getting a vasectomy without his wife's knowledge.
Click to expand...

Of course. While I agree that it was your decision to make, I disagree that it was none of her business. Not much point in being married.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is pregnant whatever she does is dealing with the consequences of her behavior.
> 
> I'm still aghast that you didn't think having a vasectomy was any of your wife's business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was none of her business.  I told her i was doing it and that she had absolutely no say in the matter.  I didn't want any more children.
> 
> And again, if she wanted, she could have not told me she was pregnant and had an abortion and i would never have been notified.  *Would you be aghast at that?*  it happens a lot more than a guy getting a vasectomy without his wife's knowledge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course. While I agree that it was your decision to make, I disagree that it was none of her business. Not much point in being married.
Click to expand...

Marriage is for procreation only? Or are you saying marriage is no good if the partners aren't open with each other? 

I wonder if Skull has the facts to back up his statement that women have abortions without the knowledge of their husbands more often than men have vasectomies without the knowledge of their wives. 
I wonder if the main reason a woman might do that is because she's pregnant by another man. Or a man might do that to hold onto a wife who wants kids, when he doesn't want them himself.


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was none of her business.  I told her i was doing it and that she had absolutely no say in the matter.  I didn't want any more children.
> 
> And again, if she wanted, she could have not told me she was pregnant and had an abortion and i would never have been notified.  *Would you be aghast at that?*  it happens a lot more than a guy getting a vasectomy without his wife's knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. While I agree that it was your decision to make, I disagree that it was none of her business. Not much point in being married.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Marriage is for procreation only? *Or are you saying marriage is no good if the partners aren't open with each other? *
> 
> I wonder if Skull has the facts to back up his statement that women have abortions without the knowledge of their husbands more often than men have vasectomies without the knowledge of their wives.
> I wonder if the main reason a woman might do that is because she's pregnant by another man. Or a man might do that to hold onto a wife who wants kids, when he doesn't want them himself.
Click to expand...

That one.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even a broken clock is right twice a day and so is jillian in this case. Only she's not saying children are punishment, you are.
> 
> from your previous post:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> What an perfectly asinine statement!! What do we tell these kids as they get older? "The reason you were born was to teach your misbehaving teen mother about sex education?  Now go live with that and be sure to make the mother who didn't want you in the first place miserable. That's your job. And another thing, do what she did and we'll punish you the same way."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think living with the consequences of your actions is punishment?
> 
> thank you for proving my point.
> 
> And who cares what "these kids" are told when they get older? When you boil it down the "reason" any of us were, are or will be born is because two people had intercourse.
> 
> And please tell me where I said a child was a punishment.  What I said was:
> 
> *If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market*
> 
> How in your mind does that equal saying a child is punishment?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in my mind, but apparently in yours. "fucking mistake".  Is that what you would name your kid?
Click to expand...


Don't use that name---I already call my marriage that.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Anguille said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even a broken clock is right twice a day and so is jillian in this case. Only she's not saying children are punishment, you are.
> 
> from your previous post:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, no safe haven laws, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> What an perfectly asinine statement!! What do we tell these kids as they get older? "The reason you were born was to teach your misbehaving teen mother about sex education?  Now go live with that and be sure to make the mother who didn't want you in the first place miserable. That's your job. And another thing, do what she did and we'll punish you the same way."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think living with the consequences of your actions is punishment?
> 
> thank you for proving my point.
> 
> And who cares what "these kids" are told when they get older? When you boil it down the "reason" any of us were, are or will be born is because two people had intercourse.
> 
> And please tell me where I said a child was a punishment.  What I said was:
> 
> *If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market*
> 
> How in your mind does that equal saying a child is punishment?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in my mind, but apparently in yours. "fucking mistake".  Is that what you would name your kid?
Click to expand...


So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.

Let me use small words so you understand.

If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.

that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.

That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.

Is that so hard to understand?


----------



## Anguille

Skull Pilot said:


> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?



Repeating for the second time, your own words:

_"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.

If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."

That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?


----------



## Andrew2382

Amanda said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> No... it doesn't turn me on... I don't think... er... maybe.
> 
> I was going to do this between just us but since you bring it up and I don't give a fuck...
> 
> I have made out with a few girls and a few times did um... a little more.
> 
> I like the way girls kiss and touch me. But I don't know it's just wrong. I don't know why but I feel so dirty for even doing it beside enjoying it. I was hoping we would talk about it and you could tell me why you think it's ok and I could make some sense of it and rationalize it so I didn't feel the way I do. More than just making out I like boys better. I like the power and strength of a man, I don't know hpow to describe it, it just mke sme breathless. But therewas something about the gentleness of girls that I can't get out of my mind. I don't think it's natural or right and it makes me feel a little sick at the same time but I wish boys could be... I dunno just more like girls with me at first.
> 
> I like the way boys smell. Girls semms I don't know artificial to me, cos maybe I know the work they put in but I know how boys are they just ARE so it's like all so real.
> 
> I dunno does any of this make sense? It doen't to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lesbian stories are usually dismissed around here unless you provide some pics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dismiss away, I wish it hadn't happened.
Click to expand...


why?

I say you try it again and video tape it and send it to me...that way I will give you my professional opinion on what you should do.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
Click to expand...



being allowed to live is punishment ?


----------



## Skull Pilot

Anguille said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
Click to expand...


So the parents of an innocent little baby taking responsibility for giving birth to that innocent little baby is bad for the innocent little baby?

PUH-LEASE


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> being allowed to live is punishment ?
Click to expand...


How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?


----------



## Anguille

Skull Pilot said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the parents of an innocent little baby taking responsibility for giving birth to that innocent little baby is bad for the innocent little baby?
> 
> PUH-LEASE
Click to expand...


When the responsibility is forced and shoved off onto them it's very bad for the baby. Ever hear of child abuse and infanticide?


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> being allowed to live is punishment ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?
Click to expand...


sorry--poverty does not equal a shitty life in my book.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> being allowed to live is punishment ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?
Click to expand...


Then if people know they have to live with their mistakes, don't you think they will make greater efforts to ensure mistakes don't happen?

If people have to live with the consequences of their actions, don't you think that maybe, just maybe they will act more responsibly?

You are absolving people from responsibility for their actions and that does no one, even "innocent little babies" any favors.


----------



## dilloduck

Skull Pilot said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> being allowed to live is punishment ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then if people know they have to live with their mistakes, don't you think they will make greater efforts to ensure mistakes don't happen?
> 
> If people have to live with the consequences of their actions, don't you think that maybe, just maybe they will act more responsibly?
> 
> You are absolving people from responsibility for their actions and that does no one, even "innocent little babies" any favors.
Click to expand...



other than to exempt women from the consequences of their sexual behavior.


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> being allowed to live is punishment ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sorry--poverty does not equal a shitty life in my book.
Click to expand...

Low income is one thing, poverty is another. Poverty need not equal a shitty life but it can equal a short one if you don't have basic medical care and it certainly puts people at risk for starvation.


----------



## Ravi

Women are never exempted from the consequences of their sexual behavior. No matter what the outcome.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry--poverty does not equal a shitty life in my book.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Low income is one thing, poverty is another. Poverty need not equal a shitty life but it can equal a short one if you don't have basic medical care and it certainly puts people at risk for starvation.
Click to expand...


 Did you miss the part where giving up a child for adoption is an option.

I am just calling for the parents of said child to pay for any and all care of that child until it is adopted. Therefore no safe haven laws where a child can simply be abandoned with no consequences.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> Talk about victimology.



I work with the research on risk factors every day.  It would be intellectually retarded for me to fail to recognize that being a single parent puts my children more at risk.  Does it make me fee uncomfortable and sad at times?  Of course it does.  On theo ther hand, it also reinforces the fact that I have to be EVEN MORE committed to the wellbeing of my children than the average family.  I have to work harder to compensate for that so that my children get the best upbringing I can provide.  That is a simple fact of my life, and I am not whining about it, I am doing what I need to do to be a good parent.

Realizing that actions have consequences and working to address those consequences is the OPPOSITE of being a permanent victim.

Sorry that you lack the intellectual and emotional capacity for more than pithy passive aggressive one-liners.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> It's no different than the pill in that a woman can ovulate the month immediately following the use of either.
> 
> vasectomy and tubal ligation are more similar in their results and the effect on the body than are birth control and abortion.



Actually, you are wrong.  Abortion can have longterm impacts on fertility, including creating a greater risk of tubal pregnancy through scarring at the fallopian tubes.  Abortion is SURGERY, with all of the risks that surgery entails.  It is not a cosmetic procedure like having a mole removed from your ass.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?



False dichotomy.  The majority of women who choose to have abortions are upper income whites.  Furthermore, you are presuming that a woman who doesn't have an abortion will elect to raise the child herself.

Maybe rent Juno and see if you can think of another possibility.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> When the responsibility is forced and shoved off onto them it's very bad for the baby. Ever hear of child abuse and infanticide?



You are nothing more than a standard issue suburban white shill for the abortion industry repeating misinformation as if it were fact.

The vast majority of abortions in this country are by white women, most of whom are not living in poverty.  POOR MINORITY WOMEN are far more likely to give birth than upper income women.  

But, I love how you equate poverty with child abuse and infanticide.  The poor are just evil, aren't they?  Your arrogance is astounding.  It's good that they have middle class white women like you, Anguille, to protect them from themselves.

You're no different Margaret Sanger, it appears. And you've bought her eugenics-based approach to population control hook, line and sinker.

Furthermore, there are other options besides giving birth and abusing the child.  Adoption, for one.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> False dichotomy.  The majority of women who choose to have abortions are upper income whites.  Furthermore, you are presuming that a woman who doesn't have an abortion will elect to raise the child herself.
> 
> Maybe rent Juno and see if you can think of another possibility.
Click to expand...

That's just not true, Kitty.



> *WHO HAS ABORTIONS?*
> 
>  Fifty percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 2024 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 17%.[7]
>  Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races.**
>  Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.[3]
>  Women who have never married obtain two-thirds of all abortions.[3]
>  About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.[7]
>  The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women[3,1]
>  The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[8]



Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about victimology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I work with the research on risk factors every day.  It would be intellectually retarded for me to fail to recognize that being a single parent puts my children more at risk.
Click to expand...

How do you know the risk factor isn't attributed to the teens having a parent or parents that are criminals themselves? Or how do you know the risk factor isn't poverty? 

You make a lot of assumptions based on your personal interactions but it is quite possible you are only seeing what you want to see.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> How do you know the risk factor isn't attributed to the teens having a parent or parents that are criminals themselves? Or how do you know the risk factor isn't poverty?
> 
> You make a lot of assumptions based on your personal interactions but it is quite possible you are only seeing what you want to see.



There are multiple risk factors that impact children.  Family norms that condone anti-social behavior is indeed one.  Poverty is another one (though it is far less strong in terms of effect).

If you want to learn more about risk factors (there are dozens), look up Hawkins & Catellano.


----------



## catzmeow

My bad, Ravi.  However, poverty is NOT the most compelling issue in abortions:

Women who have abortions tend to be low income, but that could be a
factor of their age rather than their poverty status.  57% of women who seek an abortion have incomes that are below twice the federal
poverty level. However, the portrait that it paints of them as poor could be misleading.  52% of women who have an abortion are under the age of 25. Young people simply earn less than older people and single people earn far less than married people. For example, a 2003 census bureau study found that those under 25 with a bachelors degree earned on average $22,000 while those between 25 and 29 with the same degree earned $39,000.x Thus, these women could have low incomes, *but they could
also have wealthy or middle class parents.*

 Only one in four women who sought an abortion had income levels above 300% of poverty ($42,000).
 *Only 21% of women said inadequate finances was the main reason for choosing an abortion*.xi

http://www.thirdway.org/data/product/file/17/demographics_of_abortion.pdf

And, whites account for 41% of abortions.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Good for you, kits, you admitted a mistake.  I'm proud of you.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Good for you, kits, you admitted a mistake.  I'm proud of you.



Shut the fuck up, you self-absorbed lint licker.  Was I talking to you?


----------



## Andrew2382

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you, kits, you admitted a mistake.  I'm proud of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shut the fuck up, you self-absorbed lint licker.  Was I talking to you?
Click to expand...





edit:

aww Catz...I liked the original version more


----------



## catzmeow

Andrew2382 said:


> aww Catz...I liked the original version more



Me too, but I'm trying to be a pacifist here, Andrew.


----------



## Andrew2382

catzmeow said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> aww Catz...I liked the original version more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, but I'm trying to be a pacifist here, Andrew.
Click to expand...


always go with your gut instinct, it tends to be right


----------



## catzmeow

Andrew2382 said:


> always go with your gut instinct, it tends to be right



My first instinct was "gash."  But then, I felt it might be perceived as being too emulative of Manifold.  Also, I like the almost but not quite a lesbian slur of "lint licker."


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know the risk factor isn't attributed to the teens having a parent or parents that are criminals themselves? Or how do you know the risk factor isn't poverty?
> 
> You make a lot of assumptions based on your personal interactions but it is quite possible you are only seeing what you want to see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are multiple risk factors that impact children.  Family norms that condone anti-social behavior is indeed one.  Poverty is another one (though it is far less strong in terms of effect).
> 
> If you want to learn more about risk factors (there are dozens), look up Hawkins & Catellano.
Click to expand...

I couldn't find the one that said single parents were a risk factor. Could you give me a link?


----------



## Andrew2382

catzmeow said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> always go with your gut instinct, it tends to be right
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My first instinct was "gash."  But then, I felt it might be perceived as being too emulative of Manifold.  Also, I like the almost but not quite a lesbian slur of "lint licker."
Click to expand...


Yes, i see what you did there

Bravo


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> My bad, Ravi.  However, poverty is NOT the most compelling issue in abortions:
> 
> Women who have abortions tend to be low income, but that could be a
> factor of their age rather than their poverty status.  57% of women who seek an abortion have incomes that are below twice the federal
> poverty level. However, the portrait that it paints of them as poor could be misleading.  52% of women who have an abortion are under the age of 25. Young people simply earn less than older people and single people earn far less than married people. For example, a 2003 census bureau study found that those under 25 with a bachelors degree earned on average $22,000 while those between 25 and 29 with the same degree earned $39,000.x Thus, these women could have low incomes, *but they could
> also have wealthy or middle class parents.*
> 
>  Only one in four women who sought an abortion had income levels above 300% of poverty ($42,000).
>  *Only 21% of women said inadequate finances was the main reason for choosing an abortion*.xi
> 
> http://www.thirdway.org/data/product/file/17/demographics_of_abortion.pdf
> 
> And, whites account for 41% of abortions.


lol, that's some pretty creative spin. Doesn't matter if their grandma is the Queen of England, if they are living below the poverty level they are poor. Just wanted to point out that your statement that it is mostly upper income white women having abortions was incorrect.


----------



## xsited1

What a great pick-up line:  "Abstinence is not realistic."  

Look, everybody is doing it and as long as we use protection we should be fine.  After all, "Abstinence is not realistic."  Ha!


----------



## catzmeow

Surprisingly, this wiki does a good job of describing risks associated with single parents:

Single parent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Single parent families are at a higher risk of poverty than couple families, and on average single mothers have poorer health than couple mothers [2].
> 
> Single parenting is strongly associated with an increased risk of a number of negative social, behavioral and emotional outcomes for children. However while the association is strong, on balance the effect size and the actual numbers affected are modest. Most children from single parent families do well. Many factors influence how children develop in single-parent families: the parent's age, education level, and occupation; the family's income, and the family's support network of friends and extended family members (including the non-resident parent, if available). Disadvantages in these factors that often accompany single parenting appear to cause most of this association rather than single parenting itself [13] [14].
> 
> Shocking headlines do get published; for example a 2003 Swedish study, stated that those living with a single parent were about three times more likely to either kill themselves or end up in the hospital after an attempted suicide by the age of 26 than children living with two parents, however this only happened to 2.2 percent of girls and 1 percent of boys [15]. While such a finding is concerning, clearly the vast majority of the children of single parents do not kill themselves and are underrepresented.
> 
> A variety of viewpoints do exist, with different readings of the research possible. The Institute for the Study of Civil Society reports that children of single parents, after controlling for other variables like family income, are more likely to have problems [16].* There are impacts of sole parenting on children, however the weight of the evidence does not appear to support a view that sole parents are a major cause of societal ills and are doing irreparable damage to their children *[14].



I strongly agree with the last sentence, btw.  There ARE impacts.  However, it is not the MAJOR risk factor for any youth high risk behavior by itself.  It is, however, part of the picture.


----------



## AllieBaba

Blacks and minorities are disproportionately represented in abortion...but the truth is, we have no way to keep track of the numbers because the ABORTION CLINICS WON'T PROVIDE THEM. All this theorizing about the stupid poor people needing to have their children aborted to keep them from hurting them is pure hogwash and comes straight from the brain-washed echoing brain pans of eugenecists who show time and again what they really want is forced sterilization, control and the eventual elimination of the unwashed masses.

Another interesting tidbit..one of the factoids we actually DO have about abortion is a HUGE number (also disproportionate to the whole) of girls who get abortions have much, MUCH older (and often married) fuck buddies. 

It's old men getting young girls pregnant. You, of all people, Ravi, should want to put an end to that. You had such a cow over the idea of girls under 18 getting married in the FLDS church. You were ready to de-ball those guys without a trial or anything else.


----------



## Andrew2382

I was always a fan of

if your left leg is christmas and right leg is new years, can I vist you in between the holidays?


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Surprisingly, this wiki does a good job of describing risks associated with single parents:
> 
> Single parent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Single parent families are at a higher risk of poverty than couple families, and on average single mothers have poorer health than couple mothers [2].
> 
> Single parenting is strongly associated with an increased risk of a number of negative social, behavioral and emotional outcomes for children. However while the association is strong, on balance the effect size and the actual numbers affected are modest. *Most children from single parent families do well*. Many factors influence how children develop in single-parent families: the parent's age, education level, and occupation; the family's income, and the family's support network of friends and extended family members (including the non-resident parent, if available). Disadvantages in these factors that often accompany single parenting appear to cause most of this association rather than single parenting itself [13] [14].
> 
> Shocking headlines do get published; for example a 2003 Swedish study, stated that those living with a single parent were about three times more likely to either kill themselves or end up in the hospital after an attempted suicide by the age of 26 than children living with two parents, however this only happened to 2.2 percent of girls and 1 percent of boys [15]. While such a finding is concerning, clearly the vast majority of the children of single parents do not kill themselves and are underrepresented.
> 
> A variety of viewpoints do exist, with different readings of the research possible. The Institute for the Study of Civil Society reports that children of single parents, after controlling for other variables like family income, are more likely to have problems [16].* There are impacts of sole parenting on children, however the weight of the evidence does not appear to support a view that sole parents are a major cause of societal ills and are doing irreparable damage to their children *[14].
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly agree with the last sentence, btw.  There ARE impacts.  However, it is not the MAJOR risk factor for any youth high risk behavior by itself.  It is, however, part of the picture.
Click to expand...

No, it isn't a major risk factor but you'd be surprised to learn that many wingnuts think it is...there's a big shortage of critical thinking out there.


----------



## Ravi

AllieBaba said:


> Blacks and minorities are disproportionately represented in abortion...but the truth is, we have no way to keep track of the numbers because the ABORTION CLINICS WON'T PROVIDE THEM. All this theorizing about the stupid poor people needing to have their children aborted to keep them from hurting them is pure hogwash and comes straight from the brain-washed echoing brain pans of eugenecists who show time and again what they really want is forced sterilization, control and the eventual elimination of the unwashed masses.
> 
> Another interesting tidbit..one of the factoids we actually DO have about abortion is a HUGE number (also disproportionate to the whole) of girls who get abortions have much, MUCH older (and often married) fuck buddies.
> 
> It's old men getting young girls pregnant. You, of all people, Ravi, should want to put an end to that. You had such a cow over the idea of girls under 18 getting married in the FLDS church. You were ready to de-ball those guys without a trial or anything else.


Old guys having sex with underage girls should be put in jail. That's a separate topic from the abortion topic.


----------



## catzmeow

This publication also mentions it:  http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/190106.pdf

If you see page 4 of that publication, the risk factors for gang involvement are listed.  The risk factors for delinquency are similar, as are the risk factors for teen parents and/or drug/alcohol use.

If you look at single parents, you will see that they rate a 2.4, which puts that risk factor in the middle of the pack, on par with parental attitudes favorable to anti-social behavior, for instance, in terms of risk.  It is not THE MOST SEVERE risk factor, nor is it the least.  It is of medium impact.

And, the issue with most young people and high risk behaviors is that it is an ACCUMULATION of risk factors that is really what matters.

So, it is something to be considered.  It is not the worst thing in the world, but it definitely has impact.  

Thus, single parents need to be aware that it poses a challenge for their children, and take steps to MITIGATE the impact of this risk factor.  That can be done by having a high level of bonding with your children (a protective factor), being an effective parent (another protective factor), giving your children opportunities to have pro-social responsibilities and a voice in their family's activities (another protective factor), giving them rewards for positive accomplishment (another protective factor), supporting their school endeavors, etc.

From my perspective, it is important to realize that it exists and assure that your children don't accumulate ADDITIONAL risk factors that will also impact them negatively, if that makes sense.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> lol, that's some pretty creative spin. Doesn't matter if their grandma is the Queen of England, if they are living below the poverty level they are poor. Just wanted to point out that your statement that it is mostly upper income white women having abortions was incorrect.



Actually, no it isn't, if they are of college age (and that is the age group that gets the most abortions).  Many 22-year-old girls, on their own income, would count as "low-income," but are being supported by relatively wealthy parents.

The key is that 80% of women who obtain abortions aren't doing so because of financial difficulties.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> No, it isn't a major risk factor but you'd be surprised to learn that many wingnuts think it is...there's a big shortage of critical thinking out there.



Actually it IS a *MAJOR* risk factor, but it has the most impact when coupled with other risk factors.  However, I am not going to defend an extreme position that does not represent critical thought on the matter or my own opinion.


----------



## AllieBaba

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol, that's some pretty creative spin. Doesn't matter if their grandma is the Queen of England, if they are living below the poverty level they are poor. Just wanted to point out that your statement that it is mostly upper income white women having abortions was incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no it isn't, if they are of college age (and that is the age group that gets the most abortions).  Many 22-year-old girls, on their own income, would count as "low-income," but are being supported by relatively wealthy parents.
> 
> The key is that 80% of women who obtain abortions aren't doing so because of financial difficulties.
Click to expand...


And the women that the left hates so, the ones who will hurt their children if they have them, the ones the left thinks should be sterilized and not permitted to breed...they aren't interested in getting abortions.


----------



## Againsheila

Ravi said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are saying they want to kill their babies is what they're saying.
> 
> 
> 
> In your mind they probably are. But that isn't the reality of the situation
> 
> Babble, is it really that difficult for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes?
Click to expand...


Like I said before, I have a hard time with it being strictly up to the woman as to the difference between a baby and a fetus.  A woman can abort at 6 months, if a man were to force her to abort (ie, kick her in the stomach etc.) in some states, he can be charged with murder.  How is that fair?

Either it's a fetus or a baby, it can't be one or the other depending solely on the mother's say so.

I think we need some new laws on that.

Can you imagine being a man and knowing that your girlfriend/wife/ex, aborted your child when you wanted that child?

Abortion, like suicide, is something you can't take back.  I know several women who've had abortions and with one exception, they've all regretted it.  The one exception has had multiple abortions and uses it as a form of birth control, her ONLY form of birth control.


----------



## Againsheila

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about victimology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I work with the research on risk factors every day.  It would be intellectually retarded for me to fail to recognize that being a single parent puts my children more at risk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you know the risk factor isn't attributed to the teens having a parent or parents that are criminals themselves? Or how do you know the risk factor isn't poverty?
> 
> You make a lot of assumptions based on your personal interactions but it is quite possible you are only seeing what you want to see.
Click to expand...


Saw a talk show one day.  A bunch of unwed pregnant teens and their mothers.  All of their mothers had them when they were unwed teens.  All but one of the teens wanted to have and keep the baby.  The other one had agreed to an open adoption because she said she could never give her child what she deserved.  All of the mother's of the teens were against their daughters having the babies but all of the teens said basically, "Well, you did it, why can't I?"

Kids learn by example, not by the Simon Says method.


----------



## AllieBaba

It comes from the left who wants some crimes to be okay, provided they think they're justifiable. They pretend the objection to abortion from the right comes from a desire to "control" people, when it's just the opposite. We adamantly refuse to accept that murder is "okay" so long as it's an unwanted population. Abortion is population control, and it's murder besides. And that is why the right is against it. It isn't because we want to "force" women to have children. It's because we will protect children regardless of the idiotic justifications the left comes up with to kill them, and no matter how the left tries to sexualize and reduce the value of children.

They are people, they're valuable, and we don't have the right to kill them just because they're an annoyance.


----------



## Againsheila

Skull Pilot said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think living with the consequences of your actions is punishment?
> 
> thank you for proving my point.
> 
> And who cares what "these kids" are told when they get older? When you boil it down the "reason" any of us were, are or will be born is because two people had intercourse.
> 
> And please tell me where I said a child was a punishment.  What I said was:
> 
> *If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market*
> 
> How in your mind does that equal saying a child is punishment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not in my mind, but apparently in yours. "fucking mistake".  Is that what you would name your kid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?
Click to expand...


The correct verbiage... is "surprise".  When my cousin got pregnant with her 3rd child, they called her a surprise.


----------



## Againsheila

Anguille said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
Click to expand...


I'm all for safe haven laws...and making adoption easier and quicker.  Children should never have to pay for their parents actions.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Surprisingly, this wiki does a good job of describing risks associated with single parents:
> 
> Single parent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Single parent families are at a higher risk of poverty than couple families, and on average single mothers have poorer health than couple mothers [2].
> 
> Single parenting is strongly associated with an increased risk of a number of negative social, behavioral and emotional outcomes for children. However while the association is strong, on balance the effect size and the actual numbers affected are modest. *Most children from single parent families do well*. Many factors influence how children develop in single-parent families: the parent's age, education level, and occupation; the family's income, and the family's support network of friends and extended family members (including the non-resident parent, if available). Disadvantages in these factors that often accompany single parenting appear to cause most of this association rather than single parenting itself [13] [14].
> 
> Shocking headlines do get published; for example a 2003 Swedish study, stated that those living with a single parent were about three times more likely to either kill themselves or end up in the hospital after an attempted suicide by the age of 26 than children living with two parents, however this only happened to 2.2 percent of girls and 1 percent of boys [15]. While such a finding is concerning, clearly the vast majority of the children of single parents do not kill themselves and are underrepresented.
> 
> A variety of viewpoints do exist, with different readings of the research possible. The Institute for the Study of Civil Society reports that children of single parents, after controlling for other variables like family income, are more likely to have problems [16].* There are impacts of sole parenting on children, however the weight of the evidence does not appear to support a view that sole parents are a major cause of societal ills and are doing irreparable damage to their children *[14].
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly agree with the last sentence, btw.  There ARE impacts.  However, it is not the MAJOR risk factor for any youth high risk behavior by itself.  It is, however, part of the picture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, it isn't a major risk factor but you'd be surprised to learn that many wingnuts think it is...there's a big shortage of critical thinking out there.
Click to expand...


You're not kidding.  Wingnuts substitute insults for facts.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol, that's some pretty creative spin. Doesn't matter if their grandma is the Queen of England, if they are living below the poverty level they are poor. Just wanted to point out that your statement that it is mostly upper income white women having abortions was incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no it isn't, if they are of college age (and that is the age group that gets the most abortions).  Many 22-year-old girls, on their own income, would count as "low-income," but are being supported by relatively wealthy parents.
> 
> The key is that 80% of women who obtain abortions aren't doing so because of financial difficulties.
Click to expand...

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, please show us. Your statement that the majority of those getting abortions are upper income white women is laughable...you are basing it on some notion that mainly white college girls get abortions. So prove it.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it isn't a major risk factor but you'd be surprised to learn that many wingnuts think it is...there's a big shortage of critical thinking out there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it IS a *MAJOR* risk factor, but it has the most impact when coupled with other risk factors.  However, I am not going to defend an extreme position that does not represent critical thought on the matter or my own opinion.
Click to expand...

Both your links proved otherwise.


----------



## Ravi

AllieBaba said:


> It comes from the left who wants some crimes to be okay, provided they think they're justifiable. They pretend the objection to abortion from the right comes from a desire to "control" people, when it's just the opposite. We adamantly refuse to accept that murder is "okay" so long as it's an unwanted population. Abortion is population control, and it's murder besides. And that is why the right is against it. It isn't because we want to "force" women to have children. It's because we will protect children regardless of the idiotic justifications the left comes up with to kill them, and no matter how the left tries to sexualize and reduce the value of children.
> 
> They are people, they're valuable, and we don't have the right to kill them just because they're an annoyance.


Horse kick you in the head again?


----------



## AllieBaba

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol, that's some pretty creative spin. Doesn't matter if their grandma is the Queen of England, if they are living below the poverty level they are poor. Just wanted to point out that your statement that it is mostly upper income white women having abortions was incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no it isn't, if they are of college age (and that is the age group that gets the most abortions).  Many 22-year-old girls, on their own income, would count as "low-income," but are being supported by relatively wealthy parents.
> 
> The key is that 80% of women who obtain abortions aren't doing so because of financial difficulties.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, please show us. Your statement that the majority of those getting abortions are upper income white women is laughable...you are basing it on some notion that mainly white college girls get abortions. So prove it.
Click to expand...


You can't prove anything about the numbers. Your theories are laughable, and the only numbers that exist are amorphous, to say the least. The college girl theory is based upon polling. And we all know how polling works.


----------



## AllieBaba

Ravi said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> It comes from the left who wants some crimes to be okay, provided they think they're justifiable. They pretend the objection to abortion from the right comes from a desire to "control" people, when it's just the opposite. We adamantly refuse to accept that murder is "okay" so long as it's an unwanted population. Abortion is population control, and it's murder besides. And that is why the right is against it. It isn't because we want to "force" women to have children. It's because we will protect children regardless of the idiotic justifications the left comes up with to kill them, and no matter how the left tries to sexualize and reduce the value of children.
> 
> They are people, they're valuable, and we don't have the right to kill them just because they're an annoyance.
> 
> 
> 
> Horse kick you in the head again?
Click to expand...


It says volumes about you that you consider anyone who states they will defend children as somehow deficient.

And no, I don't get kicked by my horses. I know how to handle them.


----------



## Amanda

Why do good conversations always have to turn into mudslinging contests?


----------



## AllieBaba

"Women who obtained legal abortions in 1995 were *predominately white and unmarried*. As in 1994, one fifth of women who obtained legal abortions in 1995 were adolescents (aged less than or equal to 19 years); *33% were aged 20-24 years*. Curettage (suction and sharp) remained the primary abortion procedure (99% of all procedures). As in previous years, more than half of legal abortions (54%) were performed during the first 8 weeks of gestation; specifically, 16% were at less than or equal to 6 weeks; 17% at 7 weeks; and 21% at 8 weeks. Approximately 88% of abortions were performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy."

".....However, approximately *36% of abortions were reported from states without centralized reporting of abortions (four states) or from states whose state health departments did not collect, and therefore could not provide, information about characteristics (e.g., age or race) of women obtaining legal abortions (four states).* To assist efforts to prevent unintended pregnancy, each state needs an accurate assessment of abortion on an ongoing basis (including the number and characteristics of women obtaining legal abortions)."



Reported by: Statistics and Computer Resources Br, Div of Reproductive Health, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, CDC. 
Abortion Statistics - United States.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, please show us. Your statement that the majority of those getting abortions are upper income white women is laughable...you are basing it on some notion that mainly white college girls get abortions. So prove it.



I admitted that I was wrong on the white versus minority issue, but in surveys (and I saw this on your link, AND mine), only 21% of women said they were getting abortions for financial reasons.

Of course, you realize that if you look in the footnotes of the link you provided that the racial demographics come from a very indirect method because the abortion industry WANTS to portray itself as eradicating poor minorities who shouldn't be breeding anyway.

And, I'm not even exaggerating here.


----------



## AllieBaba

The majority of women who get abortions ARE grown white women, many, many are married and/or attending school.

Blacks and minorities are disproportionately represented...but they are not the majority of those getting abortions.


----------



## Amanda

catzmeow said:


> Of course, you realize that if you look in the footnotes of the link you provided that the racial demographics come from a very indirect method because the abortion industry WANTS to portray itself as eradicating poor minorities who shouldn't be breeding anyway.
> 
> And, I'm not even exaggerating here.



Can you expand on that?


----------



## Andrew2382

anyone else find it interesting that a 17 year old girls statement would cause a 27 page thread?


----------



## catzmeow

Amanda said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, you realize that if you look in the footnotes of the link you provided that the racial demographics come from a very indirect method because the abortion industry WANTS to portray itself as eradicating poor minorities who shouldn't be breeding anyway.
> 
> And, I'm not even exaggerating here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on that?
Click to expand...


If you read about the history of Margaret Sanger, her background was in eugenics.  She had very strong feelings that some people should be permanently sterilized, and that others (particularly poor minorities) should not be having children.

The goal of opening abortion clinics, particularly in poor areas, was to stop population growth among certain segments of society.

And, even now, when you hear middle class white women talk about abortion, the issue will always come up of how it would be better for some fetuses to be aborted because their mother is poor (and the assumption goes without saying, minority) and probably would be a bad parent anywhere.

it's a very ugly and subtle sort of racism.


----------



## elvis

there are degrees/definitions  of abstinence.  If abstinence means kissing and nothing else, I don't think it's realistic.


----------



## Agnapostate

Andrew2382 said:


> anyone else find it interesting that a 17 year old girls statement would cause a 27 page thread?



She's 18, not 17. And no, I don't recognize any remarkable difference between her and anyone else commenting on the matter.


----------



## Sky Dancer

What's interesting to me is why is Amanda's _age _relevant?


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Both your links proved otherwise.



Wrong.  Risk factors for gang membership, on page 4 of the publication I linked above, range from a 3.6 (most significant) to about a 1.2 in terms of impact.  Single parent is specifically listed, and rates a 2.4.  The risk increases to 3.0 if an additional adult lives with the family who is not related.

That's significant.

IN terms of comparison, parental attitudes that support anti-social behavior rates a 2.3.

So, here are the family risk factors for gang joining:

*Family*



> One parent only 2.4
> One parent plus other adults 3.0
> Parental attitudes favoring violence 2.3
> Low bonding with parents ns&#8225;
> Low household income 2.1
> Sibling antisocial behavior 1.9
> Poor family management 1.7



The numbers besides these factors are significant.  What they mean is this:

Youth with one parent only were 2.4 TIMES more likely to join a gang than their peers with two parents.  Youth with one parent PLUS other unrelated adults were 3 times more likely to join a gang.  We're not talking 20% here, we are talking 200%.  That's a huge margin.

If a youth has MORE risk factors, their odds of joining a gang (or engaging in related anti-social activity) increase exponentially:



> As figure 5 shows, compared with no-risk youth, low-risk youth were 3 times more likely to join a gang, medium-risk youth were 5 times more likely to join, and highrisk youth were 13 times more likely to join. The more risk factors present in a youth&#8217;s life, the higher his or her odds of joining a gang.



The risk factors, by domain (individual, peer, community, school and family) are listed on page 4 of this publication.

I wish you'd read it, it would help you understand this subject better.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/190106.pdf


----------



## Sky Dancer

Oh brother.


----------



## Andrew2382

Agnapostate said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyone else find it interesting that a 17 year old girls statement would cause a 27 page thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's 18, not 17. And no, I don't recognize any remarkable difference between her and anyone else commenting on the matter.
Click to expand...


Quite frankly

Who gives a fuck what this girl has to say...how empty are peoples lives that it needs a 27 page thread...

want the real life jist of it

Kids will either fuck or they won't

end of discussion

Some wait till they are married which is the minoirty and some start fuckin as soon as they can.

move on next topic


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Oh brother.



Yeah, I know.  Actual evidence makes your brain hurt, doesn't it, Sky?


----------



## Andrew2382

Though watching sky and catz argue is entairtaining.

All we need is a boxing ring and some ky jelly and we r good to go


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> What's interesting to me is why is Amanda's _age _relevant?



I think they were referring to Bristol Palin.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Andrew2382 said:


> Though watching sky and catz argue is entairtaining.
> 
> All we need is a boxing ring and some ky jelly and we r good to go


She's already tried to kidney punch me.  LOL.  Sorry, I don't wrestle fat girls in flannel PJ's.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> She's already tried to kidney punch me.  LOL.  Sorry, I don't wrestle fat girls in flannel PJ's.



A few thoughts:  

First,  if I'd kidney punched you, it wouldn't have been an attempt, and you'd be pissing blood in the hospital ER.  So, please stop pretending you've somehow been victimized here (other than the self-victimization you routinely perform by posting like you suffer from permanent brain damage).  Nobody has punched anyone, except verbally.  And, if you can't handle that, you should get off the computer and take a walk.

Second, the cool thing about the internet is that our WORDS determine whether we look like losers, not our age, clothing, weight, ethnicity, or gender.

I'm sorry that you feel so inadequate to address the topic.  It's sad how stupid you are.

Lastly, any time you want to have a photo war, and post photos of yourself, i'll be happy to reciprocate.  I guarantee that I am younger, thinner, and more attractve than you, not that this would be difficult.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's already tried to kidney punch me.  LOL.  Sorry, I don't wrestle fat girls in flannel PJ's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two thoughts:
> 
> First,  if I'd kidney punched you, it wouldn't have been an attempt, and you'd be pissing blood in the hospital ER.  So, please stop pretending you've somehow been victimized here (other than the self-victimization you routinely perform by posting like you suffer from permanent brain damage).
> 
> Second, the cool thing about the internet is that our WORDS determine whether we look like losers, not our age, clothing, weight, ethnicity, or gender.
> 
> I'm sorry that you feel so inadequate to address the topic.  It's sad how stupid you are.
> 
> Lastly, any time you want to have a photo war, and post photos of yourself, i'll be happy to reciprocate.  I guarantee that I am younger, thinner, and more attractve than you, not that this would be difficult.
Click to expand...

 Hahahaha

See you in the ring, sister.  Believe me I had NO interest in seeing your fat fucking face in flannel PJ's in my pm inbox forwarded to me from one of your fans.

Same fan tells me you removed that photo.

Hahahaha


----------



## Andrew2382

Go for it Catz!

Post those pics


If anything I am an unbiased judge

feel free to PM me photos and I will decide who the winner is.


----------



## Sky Dancer

She removed the fat ones already Andrew.  Maybe she'll send you her cheesecake edition.

Frankly, I could give a shit what that bitch looks like.  She's mean.


----------



## AllieBaba

So I take it you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation now.

Not that you ever did.


----------



## catzmeow

The difference between Catz and Sky.

Ten years ago, Catz was fat, and Sky was stupid.

Catz isn't fat anymore, but Sky remains stupid.

And somehow, Sky thinks that poking fun at Catz's non-existent fat makes her look smarter.  It's sad.

Catz's legs, circa 2008 (age 42):




Catz w/ kids:






More legs:


----------



## Tech_Esq

Amanda said:


> I bet Alaska is just as bad as Kansas was for being a boring place to grow up. But seriously if you're going to do it you both need to be taking measures to prevent pregnancy... unless of course you want to have a baby.



She said the choice to get pregnant was hers. So I have to believe she intended to do it.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, you realize that if you look in the footnotes of the link you provided that the racial demographics come from a very indirect method because the abortion industry WANTS to portray itself as eradicating poor minorities who shouldn't be breeding anyway.
> 
> And, I'm not even exaggerating here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you read about the history of Margaret Sanger, her background was in eugenics.  She had very strong feelings that some people should be permanently sterilized, and that others (particularly poor minorities) should not be having children.
> 
> The goal of opening abortion clinics, particularly in poor areas, was to stop population growth among certain segments of society.
> 
> And, even now, when you hear middle class white women talk about abortion, the issue will always come up of how it would be better for some fetuses to be aborted because their mother is poor (and the assumption goes without saying, minority) and probably would be a bad parent anywhere.
> 
> it's a very ugly and subtle sort of racism.
Click to expand...

You hang around with some strange people.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both your links proved otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  Risk factors for gang membership, on page 4 of the publication I linked above, range from a 3.6 (most significant) to about a 1.2 in terms of impact.  Single parent is specifically listed, and rates a 2.4.  The risk increases to 3.0 if an additional adult lives with the family who is not related.
> 
> That's significant.
> 
> IN terms of comparison, parental attitudes that support anti-social behavior rates a 2.3.
> 
> So, here are the family risk factors for gang joining:
> 
> *Family*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One parent only 2.4
> One parent plus other adults 3.0
> Parental attitudes favoring violence 2.3
> Low bonding with parents ns
> Low household income 2.1
> Sibling antisocial behavior 1.9
> Poor family management 1.7
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The numbers besides these factors are significant.  What they mean is this:
> 
> Youth with one parent only were 2.4 TIMES more likely to join a gang than their peers with two parents.  Youth with one parent PLUS other unrelated adults were 3 times more likely to join a gang.  We're not talking 20% here, we are talking 200%.  That's a huge margin.
> 
> If a youth has MORE risk factors, their odds of joining a gang (or engaging in related anti-social activity) increase exponentially:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As figure 5 shows, compared with no-risk youth, low-risk youth were 3 times more likely to join a gang, medium-risk youth were 5 times more likely to join, and highrisk youth were 13 times more likely to join. The more risk factors present in a youths life, the higher his or her odds of joining a gang.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The risk factors, by domain (individual, peer, community, school and family) are listed on page 4 of this publication.
> 
> I wish you'd read it, it would help you understand this subject better.
> 
> http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/190106.pdf
Click to expand...

I glanced at it but it didn't give me any details of how they came up with their data, so it's pretty useless.


----------



## Ravi

Andrew2382 said:


> Agnapostate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyone else find it interesting that a 17 year old girls statement would cause a 27 page thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's 18, not 17. And no, I don't recognize any remarkable difference between her and anyone else commenting on the matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quite frankly
> 
> Who gives a fuck what this girl has to say...how empty are peoples lives that it needs a 27 page thread...
> 
> want the real life jist of it
> 
> Kids will either fuck or they won't
> 
> end of discussion
> 
> Some wait till they are married which is the minoirty and some start fuckin as soon as they can.
> 
> move on next topic
Click to expand...

And yet here you are.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> You hang around with some strange people.



Only on here.  Reference Eel's posts.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> I glanced at it but it didn't give me any details of how they came up with their data, so it's pretty useless.



Perhaps you should have glanced at the footnotes.  There was an explanation of how these risk factors were obtained.  Furthermore, the entire publication repeatedly references this:

SSDP Homepage

Sometimes, I think you prefer to NOT have information you request.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You hang around with some strange people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only on here.  Reference Eel's posts.
Click to expand...

Eel said that minorities should be exterminated via abortion? No way.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Eel said that minorities should be exterminated via abortion? No way.



Eel implied that poverty = child abuse.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I glanced at it but it didn't give me any details of how they came up with their data, so it's pretty useless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should have glanced at the footnotes.  There was an explanation of how these risk factors were obtained.  Furthermore, the entire publication repeatedly references this:
> 
> SSDP Homepage
> 
> Sometimes, I think you prefer to NOT have information you request.
Click to expand...

I did look. Their factors don't convince me. For instance, someone that lives in a neighborhood where weed is available is a 3.6...but where exactly are these neighborhoods where weed isn't available? Also, in the group of kids they've studied, how prevalent are gangs in their neighborhoods and how does that factor into the equation? In the single parent homes, what is the relationship with the other parent and how does that factor into the equation? I know quite a few single parent households and none of them have kids in gangs. I understand that it is harder to raise kids in single family homes, but it is probably even harder to raise them in homes where one or more of the parents is physically or verbally abusive...and THAT information is totally absent from their chart.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> I did look. Their factors don't convince me. For instance, someone that lives in a neighborhood where weed is available is a 3.6...but where exactly are these neighborhoods where weed isn't available? Also, in the group of kids they've studied, how prevalent are gangs in their neighborhoods and how does that factor into the equation? In the single parent homes, what is the relationship with the other parent and how does that factor into the equation? I know quite a few single parent households and none of them have kids in gangs. I understand that it is harder to raise kids in single family homes, but it is probably even harder to raise them in homes where one or more of the parents is physically or verbally abusive...and THAT information is totally absent from their chart.



This data is based upon two-decades worth of developmental studies in Rochester, NY, Seattle, WA, and several other areas.  The data compares youth who joined gangs with youth *from the same areas* who did not.

Prevalence of gangs IS a risk factor that occurred in other studies.  

Of course you know plenty of single parent families where kids aren't in gangs.  Do you understand that multiple risk factors increase risk of gang joining?  And, in dozens of studies, researchers have found that kids do better in homes with two parents unless there is a CRITICAL LEVEL of conflict and physical violence.  

Do you get that I am not trying to beat up single parents, because I AM ONE.  I'm just giving you data that has been correlated in multiple studies.  Coming from a single parent home is a risk factor for a number of anti-social behaviors by young people.  It isn't the ONLY risk factor, or even the most important one, but it is significant.

Why are you so determined to prove that it isn't?  These are scientifically validated studies that have been buttressed by years of research.

If a kid comes from a single parent home, it increases his or her risk. However, that doesn't mean that this risk can't be mitigated by actions taken by the parent (in fact, above, i gave examples of protective factors that counter this risk factor).  

I think you think I'm saying something I'm not.  I don't blame single parents for all the ills of society.  I'm just saying that we need to be aware it is a factor.  It isn't the ONLY factor, but it is a factor.


----------



## Ravi

btw, Kitty, I was driving along the other day and I noticed that most of the cars on the road were either white, red, or black. I imagine if we asked, we could find out what car color can predict about future gang membership. And that would be just as valid a predictor as single-parenthood. 

A lot of studies are done with good intentions but their conclusions are faulty.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> A lot of studies are done with good intentions but their conclusions are faulty.



The data on risk factors is amongst the most scientifically rigorous social science data that exists.  I'm sorry that you aren't familiar with it, but it is used across the board by professionals from the fields of criminal justice, education, and social services to address youth social deficits.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did look. Their factors don't convince me. For instance, someone that lives in a neighborhood where weed is available is a 3.6...but where exactly are these neighborhoods where weed isn't available? Also, in the group of kids they've studied, how prevalent are gangs in their neighborhoods and how does that factor into the equation? In the single parent homes, what is the relationship with the other parent and how does that factor into the equation? I know quite a few single parent households and none of them have kids in gangs. I understand that it is harder to raise kids in single family homes, but it is probably even harder to raise them in homes where one or more of the parents is physically or verbally abusive...and THAT information is totally absent from their chart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This data is based upon two-decades worth of developmental studies in Rochester, NY, Seattle, WA, and several other areas.  The data compares youth who joined gangs with youth *from the same areas* who did not.
> 
> Prevalence of gangs IS a risk factor that occurred in other studies.
> 
> Of course you know plenty of single parent families where kids aren't in gangs.  Do you understand that multiple risk factors increase risk of gang joining?  And, in dozens of studies, researchers have found that kids do better in homes with two parents unless there is a CRITICAL LEVEL of conflict and physical violence.
> 
> Do you get that I am not trying to beat up single parents, because I AM ONE.  I'm just giving you data that has been correlated in multiple studies.  Coming from a single parent home is a risk factor for a number of anti-social behaviors by young people.  It isn't the ONLY risk factor, or even the most important one, but it is significant.
> 
> *Why are you so determined to prove that it isn't?*  These are scientifically validated studies that have been buttressed by years of research.
> 
> If a kid comes from a single parent home, it increases his or her risk. However, that doesn't mean that this risk can't be mitigated by actions taken by the parent (in fact, above, i gave examples of protective factors that counter this risk factor).
> 
> I think you think I'm saying something I'm not.  I don't blame single parents for all the ills of society.  I'm just saying that we need to be aware it is a factor.  It isn't the ONLY factor, but it is a factor.
Click to expand...

I'm not. It just doesn't make sense to me. I would imagine verbally or physically abusive parents would be the number one reason why kids go wrong. And this study didn't even account for that. Why?


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> I'm not. It just doesn't make sense to me. I would imagine verbally or physically abusive parents would be the number one reason why kids go wrong. And this study didn't even account for that. Why?



It isn't that the study didn't account for it.  It is that in measuring kids who joined gangs and kids who didn't, verbally or physically abusive parents were not as statistically significant as other factors.  

For whatever reasons, while those may be negative factors in kids' lives, it did not play a heavy role in gang joining.

Of course, in other studies, family violence (not necessarily directed AT the kids) has been shown to play a role, as well as parent values that are pro-violence.  High levels of family conflict also play a role.  But, statistically speaking, they do not seem to play a more significant role than an absent parent.

It may seem counter-intuitive to you, but the research on this one is actually fairly clear over multiple studies.

The factors that were mentioned in the article I linked were those that were found to be STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT in gang joining.  There is no doubt that family violence is bad, but apparently, it does not influence gang joining as much as outsiders might imagine it does.

Part of it is probably that, for kids who grow up in a violent family, some degree of violence is NORMAL, to that kid, and doesn't even necessarily interfere with having a positive relationship with their parent.

I've known plenty of kids who grew up in violent homes, but with gang members, at least, I didn't see that their homes were any more violent than those of the kids they went to school with that DIDN'T join gangs.

Also, one other factor may be that family violence is much less prevalent than some of us imagine.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not. It just doesn't make sense to me. I would imagine verbally or physically abusive parents would be the number one reason why kids go wrong. And this study didn't even account for that. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't that the study didn't account for it.  It is that in measuring kids who joined gangs and kids who didn't, verbally or physically abusive parents were not as statistically significant as other factors.
> 
> For whatever reasons, while those may be negative factors in kids' lives, it did not play a heavy role in gang joining.
> 
> Of course, in other studies, family violence (not necessarily directed AT the kids) has been shown to play a role, as well as parent values that are pro-violence.  High levels of family conflict also play a role.  But, statistically speaking, they do not seem to play a more significant role than an absent parent.
> 
> It may seem counter-intuitive to you, but the research on this one is actually fairly clear over multiple studies.
> 
> The factors that were mentioned in the article I linked were those that were found to be STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT in gang joining.  There is no doubt that family violence is bad, but apparently, it does not influence gang joining as much as outsiders might imagine it does.
> 
> Part of it is probably that, for kids who grow up in a violent family, some degree of violence is NORMAL, to that kid, and doesn't even necessarily interfere with having a positive relationship with their parent.
> 
> I've known plenty of kids who grew up in violent homes, but with gang members, at least, I didn't see that their homes were any more violent than those of the kids they went to school with that DIDN'T join gangs.
> 
> Also, one other factor may be that family violence is much less prevalent than some of us imagine.
Click to expand...

You're really making me laugh now. How would you, or they, know if it was statistically important if they never even asked the question???

And I'm actually rolling on the floor over your comment that kids that grow up with it see physical and verbal abuse as normal. That would hold true in a closed society with no interactions, but I bet most American kids somehow know getting their bones broken by mommy or daddy isn't the way things are supposed to be.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Tech_Esq said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Alaska is just as bad as Kansas was for being a boring place to grow up. But seriously if you're going to do it you both need to be taking measures to prevent pregnancy... unless of course you want to have a baby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She said the choice to get pregnant was hers. So I have to believe she intended to do it.
Click to expand...


Sounds like it to me.


----------



## AllieBaba

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you read about the history of Margaret Sanger, her background was in eugenics.  She had very strong feelings that some people should be permanently sterilized, and that others (particularly poor minorities) should not be having children.
> 
> The goal of opening abortion clinics, particularly in poor areas, was to stop population growth among certain segments of society.
> 
> And, even now, when you hear middle class white women talk about abortion, the issue will always come up of how it would be better for some fetuses to be aborted because their mother is poor (and the assumption goes without saying, minority) and probably would be a bad parent anywhere.
> 
> it's a very ugly and subtle sort of racism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You hang around with some strange people.
Click to expand...


And you're a disingenuos turd. You've read all the Margaret Sanger shit, your stupid act only works for about a year. Well it's been over a year. We all know you aren't that stupid, and you just pretend you're stupid so you can avoid actually admitting to your beliefs.

You agree with Sanger, and you agree that eugenics is AOK. You defend a police state and don't think all people deserve due process, or even a fair trial before breaking their doors down and dispersing their families to the wind. You prove you believe these things in here all the time, with your smug little comments about how certain people shouldn't be allowed to breed, and abortion is the thinking man's solution to poverty and abuse, and it's okay to arrest and separate families, perform gynocological exams on them, if they happen to belong to a religious group.

While at the same time, if they're getting abortions, you could give a shit about them and don't want anything done about the situation which landed them in the clinics, no matter how young they are.

You're like the 40 year old woman who teases her hair and talks baby talk because she thinks it endears her to men....but keeps her retarded daughter chained up in a closet.


----------



## Ravi

AllieBaba said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you read about the history of Margaret Sanger, her background was in eugenics.  She had very strong feelings that some people should be permanently sterilized, and that others (particularly poor minorities) should not be having children.
> 
> The goal of opening abortion clinics, particularly in poor areas, was to stop population growth among certain segments of society.
> 
> And, even now, when you hear middle class white women talk about abortion, the issue will always come up of how it would be better for some fetuses to be aborted because their mother is poor (and the assumption goes without saying, minority) and probably would be a bad parent anywhere.
> 
> it's a very ugly and subtle sort of racism.
> 
> 
> 
> You hang around with some strange people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you're a disingenuos turd. You've read all the Margaret Sanger shit, your stupid act only works for about a year. Well it's been over a year. We all know you aren't that stupid, and you just pretend you're stupid so you can avoid actually admitting to your beliefs.
> 
> You agree with Sanger, and you agree that eugenics is AOK. You defend a police state and don't think all people deserve due process, or even a fair trial before breaking their doors down and dispersing their families to the wind. You prove you believe these things in here all the time, with your smug little comments about how certain people shouldn't be allowed to breed, and abortion is the thinking man's solution to poverty and abuse, and it's okay to arrest and separate families, perform gynocological exams on them, if they happen to belong to a religious group.
> 
> While at the same time, if they're getting abortions, you could give a shit about them and don't want anything done about the situation which landed them in the clinics, no matter how young they are.
> 
> You're like the 40 year old woman who teases her hair and talks baby talk because she thinks it endears her to men....but keeps her retarded daughter chained up in a closet.
Click to expand...

Allie, I don't agree with her and I have never met anyone that has. That you keep pretending over and over that people do is either a lie on your part or a severe reaction to your continual brainwashing. In fact, the only person who ever said anything remotely like that was one of your talking heads that claimed crime would drop if black babies were aborted. I've never once said that certain people shouldn't be allowed to breed or any of the other things you are raving about. If you want to know what I think, ask me, and quit pretending you know.


----------



## Ravi

Also, Kitty, your study included this information:



> The Seattle Social Development
> Project is a longitudinal study of
> youth living in high-crime neighborhoods.
> The study is designed to
> enhance our understanding of the
> predictors of gang participation.



Which makes me wonder...how many families in the study are single-parent and how many are two-parent. High crime neighborhoods tend to have more single-parent households so the answer to that question could make even their correlation incorrect.


----------



## BrianH

Wolf said:


> Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says
> Posted: 10:43 AM ET
> 
> From CNN Associate Producer Martina Stewart
> 
> 
> Palin says she and Johnston still plan to wed.
> (CNN)  In her first interview since giving birth to son Tripp, Bristol Palin, daughter of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, said its not realistic to expect abstinence outside of marriage.
> 
> Watch: Bristol Palin breaks her silence
> 
> Everyone should be abstinent . . . but its not realistic at all, the 18-year-old told Foxs Greta Van Susteren, adding that having sex as a teenager had become more and more accepted now among people her age.
> 
> The new mother, who gave birth to Gov. Palins first grandchild late last year, said her decision to go forward with an unplanned pregnancy was entirely her own.
> 
> CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Abstinence is not realistic, Palins daughter says « - Blogs from CNN.com




"And tune in next week for the hit reality TV show, Bristol and Family, where Bristol Palin address the economic stimulus bill as well as the war on Iraq and Afghanistan."  

Who the hell cares what Bristol Palin thinks about being a mother...?  When was the last time they interviewed a disadvantaged woman with a bunch of kids who lives on welfare?  Oh wait, that was last week....  Damn...


----------



## Ravi

BrianH said:


> Wolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abstinence 'is not realistic,' Palin's daughter says
> Posted: 10:43 AM ET
> 
> From CNN Associate Producer Martina Stewart
> 
> 
> Palin says she and Johnston still plan to wed.
> (CNN)  In her first interview since giving birth to son Tripp, Bristol Palin, daughter of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, said its not realistic to expect abstinence outside of marriage.
> 
> Watch: Bristol Palin breaks her silence
> 
> Everyone should be abstinent . . . but its not realistic at all, the 18-year-old told Foxs Greta Van Susteren, adding that having sex as a teenager had become more and more accepted now among people her age.
> 
> The new mother, who gave birth to Gov. Palins first grandchild late last year, said her decision to go forward with an unplanned pregnancy was entirely her own.
> 
> CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Abstinence is not realistic, Palins daughter says « - Blogs from CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "And tune in next week for the hit reality TV show, Bristol and Family, where Bristol Palin address the economic stimulus bill as well as the war on Iraq and Afghanistan."
> 
> Who the hell cares what Bristol Palin thinks about being a mother...?  When was the last time they interviewed a disadvantaged woman with a bunch of kids who lives on welfare?  Oh wait, that was last week....  Damn...
Click to expand...

Maybe she can write a book like Joe the Plumber and influence stupid people everywhere.


----------



## Ravi

Catz, seriously, this study is very flawed. And I wouldn't care except that if you convince people that being a single-parent puts your children at risk without any real evidence you encourage parents to stay in abusive marriages. Or you encourage them to micromanage and over-protect their kids...adding to the wussification of Americans everywhere.


----------



## Againsheila

Ravi said:


> Catz, seriously, this study is very flawed. And I wouldn't care except that if you convince people that being a single-parent puts your children at risk without any real evidence you encourage parents to stay in abusive marriages. Or you encourage them to micromanage and over-protect their kids...adding to the wussification of Americans everywhere.



How about encouraging single women everywhere not to have children unless the man is going to be a good father?


----------



## Ravi

Againsheila said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Catz, seriously, this study is very flawed. And I wouldn't care except that if you convince people that being a single-parent puts your children at risk without any real evidence you encourage parents to stay in abusive marriages. Or you encourage them to micromanage and over-protect their kids...adding to the wussification of Americans everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about encouraging single women everywhere not to have children unless the man is going to be a good father?
Click to expand...

That would be nice, too..but a lot of single mothers are single mothers because of divorce.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Which makes me wonder...how many families in the study are single-parent and how many are two-parent. High crime neighborhoods tend to have more single-parent households so the answer to that question could make even their correlation incorrect.



The study used study youth and a comparison group of youth who lived in similar circumstances.  Most reputable longterm studies do.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which makes me wonder...how many families in the study are single-parent and how many are two-parent. High crime neighborhoods tend to have more single-parent households so the answer to that question could make even their correlation incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The study used study youth and a comparison group of youth who lived in similar circumstances.  Most reputable longterm studies do.
Click to expand...

Then their correlation is flawed.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Catz, seriously, this study is very flawed. And I wouldn't care except that if you convince people that being a single-parent puts your children at risk without any real evidence you encourage parents to stay in abusive marriages. Or you encourage them to micromanage and over-protect their kids...adding to the wussification of Americans everywhere.



Yeah.  As a professional social scientist, you definitely have credibility in pronouncing this study flawed.  One what basis do you proclaim it flawed, oh Doctoral one?


----------



## KittenKoder

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So one cannot become pregnant via a mistake? I never said the child was a mistake.
> 
> Let me use small words so you understand.
> 
> If a young man or woman find themselves in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy occurs, a mistake if you will, they should be held 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions.
> 
> that means if abortion is their choice, they and they alone pay for it.
> 
> That means if they choose to give the resulting offspring up for adoption, they pay for 100% of the care until the adoption is final.
> 
> Is that so hard to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating for the second time, your own words:
> 
> _"Maybe if we let these young adults have to live with the consequences of their actions, you know no free abortions, *no safe haven laws*, etc.
> 
> If you get pregnant, YOU pay for your own fucking mistake. Then I'll bet you teen pregnancy rates will fall faster than the stock market_ ."
> 
> That punishes the babies. Are those words and are innocent babies small enough for _you_?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> being allowed to live is punishment ?
Click to expand...


It can be.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Catz, seriously, this study is very flawed. And I wouldn't care except that if you convince people that being a single-parent puts your children at risk without any real evidence you encourage parents to stay in abusive marriages. Or you encourage them to micromanage and over-protect their kids...adding to the wussification of Americans everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.  As a professional social scientist, you definitely have credibility in pronouncing this study flawed.  One what basis do you proclaim it flawed, oh Doctoral one?
Click to expand...

Read my posts. Why didn't they explore verbal or physical abuse?


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Then their correlation is flawed.



NO, dear, it isn't.  Because kids who lived in single parent homes in this community joined gangs at a rate that was 240% higher than youth who were in two parent households in the same neighborhood.

It's amazing how your pretzel yourself.  SSDS is one of, if not THE MOST, respected social development studies on risk factors in the country.  I'm sorry, but your expertise is not sufficient that your claim is credible.

I'm familiar with a number of communities that have higher than average rates of two parent homes, and still have kids involved in gangs, but the kids in single parent homes STILL join gangs at a much higher rate.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Read my posts. Why didn't they explore verbal or physical abuse?


They explored close to a hundred factors, and the risk factors on page 4 of the document I provided were the ones that correlated to gang joining and delinquency.


----------



## KittenKoder

Okay ... a tough question: Are those against abortion also for forced adoptions or sterilizations?


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> NO, dear, it isn't.  Because kids who lived in single parent homes in this community joined gangs at a rate that was 240% higher than youth who were in two parent households in the same neighborhood.
> 
> It's amazing how your pretzel yourself.  SSDS is one of, if not THE MOST, respected social development studies on risk factors in the country.  I'm sorry, but your expertise is not sufficient that your claim is credible.


So tell us then, what percentage of the homes were single parent and what percentage were two parent?


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> So tell us then, what percentage of the homes were single parent and what percentage were two parent?



I don't know, you'd have to do further research, and I encourage you to do so.  But, the point of having a study group and a control group is that you try to MATCH THEM DEMOGRAPHICALLY, which includes family structure.

Hawkins and Catellano are THE PREEMINENT researchers in the field of risk/resiliency, and their work has been scrutinized for two decades.  The fact that you don't understand their work doesn't make it less credible to anyone who understands these social issues.


----------



## KittenKoder

Here's the thing that studies like that forget, poor people join gangs to fight back, rich kids become emo.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> So tell us then, what percentage of the homes were single parent and what percentage were two parent?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, you'd have to do further research, and I encourage you to do so.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I figured. They don't know either.


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> Okay ... a tough question: Are those against abortion also for forced adoptions or sterilizations?



Why would we be?  And, for the record, I'm not against all abortions, just those after 24 weeks when the fetus is viable.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Yeah, I figured. They don't know either.



Okay, so let me sum this up.  I've provided you with credible research performed by people who are THE EXPERTS in the field.  And you, with your zero years of experience in social development research, have dismissed their findings and provided no evidence to back up YOUR position.

Is that how you generally argue your case?

And people find you credible?

I seriously have to wonder why anyone even responds to you.


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> Here's the thing that studies like that forget, poor people join gangs to fight back, rich kids become emo.



Jesus Christ.  If you don't understand research, don't make yourself look even more ignorant.


----------



## catzmeow

Can someone explain to me why people like Anguille and Ravi are so invested in the idea that having a dad present in a home isn't important to kids' well-being?  Because, this ain't rocket science, and I don't get why this particular paradigm is so important that it makes them incapable of being rational.


----------



## Mad Scientist

catzmeow said:


> Can someone explain to me why people like Anguille and Ravi are so invested in the idea that having a dad present in a home isn't important to kids' well-being?  Because, this ain't rocket science, and I don't get why this particular paradigm is so important that it makes them incapable of being rational.


Because if they acknowledge that a mom and dad are the best family unit then that blows up any argument that two dads or two moms are just as good.
Or a dad and a goat. Or mom and a monkey etc...


----------



## KittenKoder

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing that studies like that forget, poor people join gangs to fight back, rich kids become emo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ.  If you don't understand research, don't make yourself look even more ignorant.
Click to expand...


Catz ... take a joke sometime.


----------



## catzmeow

Mad Scientist said:


> Because if they acknowledge that a mom and dad are the best family unit then that blows up any argument that two dads or two moms are just as good.
> Or a dad and a goat. Or mom and a monkey etc...



In all fairness, I am not sure that gender makes a big difference in the two parent thing.  I think that it largely has more to do with economic and emotional stability, from the perspective of the child.  I'm just generalizing that most often, the missing 2nd parent is a father (though not always).


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> Catz ... take a joke sometime.



My bad.

Ha.  Ha. Ha. 
Is that better?  Was I semi-convincing?


----------



## KittenKoder

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay ... a tough question: Are those against abortion also for forced adoptions or sterilizations?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would we be?  And, for the record, I'm not against all abortions, just those after 24 weeks when the fetus is viable.
Click to expand...


Here's the thing, often people who are against abortion also whine and moan about those same kids being on welfare most of their lives, they also complain about the kids being raised wrong and in bad environments. If they truly cared about the children they would need some solution, the only three that would make an impact are abortion, forced adoption, or forced sterilization. Otherwise you can't whine about the kids on welfare because you don't are not allowing for any solution to the problem. That is why it would be. Oh, and to be clear, not saying you in particular it's a broad statement.


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> Here's the thing, often people who are against abortion also whine and moan about those same kids being on welfare most of their lives, they also complain about the kids being raised wrong and in bad environments. If they truly cared about the children they would need some solution, the only three that would make an impact are abortion, forced adoption, or forced sterilization. Otherwise you can't whine about the kids on welfare because you don't are not allowing for any solution to the problem. That is why it would be. Oh, and to be clear, not saying you in particular it's a broad statement.



I actually agree with you on the whining part by conservatives.

For me, I'm not totally anti-welfare, but I would like it to incorporate some MANDATORY elements:  mandatory education, mandatory job skills training, mandatory classes in nutrition, budgeting, and other life skills.

People make mistakes, and I totally understand that.  But if we REALLY cared about poor people, we would give them the skills they need to escape from poverty, rather than keeping them trapped in dependency on the government.

I've known too many poor people who raised exceptional kids to say that we should force them to be sterilized or give up their children simply because they are poor.


----------



## KittenKoder

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing, often people who are against abortion also whine and moan about those same kids being on welfare most of their lives, they also complain about the kids being raised wrong and in bad environments. If they truly cared about the children they would need some solution, the only three that would make an impact are abortion, forced adoption, or forced sterilization. Otherwise you can't whine about the kids on welfare because you don't are not allowing for any solution to the problem. That is why it would be. Oh, and to be clear, not saying you in particular it's a broad statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually agree with you on the whining part by conservatives.
> 
> For me, I'm not totally anti-welfare, but I would like it to incorporate some MANDATORY elements:  *mandatory education, mandatory job skills training, mandatory classes in nutrition, budgeting, and other life skills*.
> 
> People make mistakes, and I totally understand that.  But if we REALLY cared about poor people, we would give them the skills they need to escape from poverty, rather than keeping them trapped in dependency on the government.
> 
> I've known too many poor people who raised exceptional kids to say that we should force them to be sterilized or give up their children simply because they are poor.
Click to expand...


The reason these do not exist is because they cost more, a LOT more, than just giving someone money for life, especially today. The people who can train for these charge way more than they are worth. They use to have programs you could apply for that would take you through all your education, but they were all cut because they couldn't afford it for the few who did utilize them.


----------



## Againsheila

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing, often people who are against abortion also whine and moan about those same kids being on welfare most of their lives, they also complain about the kids being raised wrong and in bad environments. If they truly cared about the children they would need some solution, the only three that would make an impact are abortion, forced adoption, or forced sterilization. Otherwise you can't whine about the kids on welfare because you don't are not allowing for any solution to the problem. That is why it would be. Oh, and to be clear, not saying you in particular it's a broad statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually agree with you on the whining part by conservatives.
> 
> For me, I'm not totally anti-welfare, but I would like it to incorporate some MANDATORY elements:  mandatory education, mandatory job skills training, mandatory classes in nutrition, budgeting, and other life skills.
> 
> People make mistakes, and I totally understand that.  But if we REALLY cared about poor people, we would give them the skills they need to escape from poverty, rather than keeping them trapped in dependency on the government.
> 
> I've known too many poor people who raised exceptional kids to say that we should force them to be sterilized or give up their children simply because they are poor.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately that doesn't work.  Oprah discovered that the hard way when she put up $40 million of her own money to provide training for poor single parents.  It was a disaster.  The study concluded that people didn't want to better themselves when they could get paid to sit on their butts at home no matter how little that payment amounted to.

Yes, some poor people do raise exceptional kids and yes we do need to provide help for them, but the truth is that many of those single moms are lousy moms by choice, and yes, I've known some of them.  When a girl says in front of her two kids almost everyday that she should give them up for adoption because she can't afford them and then spends over $100 on tupperware (and this was 20 years ago), there's something desperately wrong.

I was attacked by a friend for agreeing with the mother in question, she said that was a thoughtless thing for me to say.  I pointed out that any mother who says in front of her kids repeatedly that she should give them up for adoption SHOULD give them up for adoption, it's pretty obvious they'd be better off with someone else.


----------



## Anguille

Skull Pilot said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> sorry--poverty does not equal a shitty life in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> Low income is one thing, poverty is another. Poverty need not equal a shitty life but it can equal a short one if you don't have basic medical care and it certainly puts people at risk for starvation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you miss the part where giving up a child for adoption is an option.
> 
> I am just calling for the parents of said child to pay for any and all care of that child until it is adopted. Therefore no safe haven laws where a child can simply be abandoned with no consequences.
Click to expand...

"I am just calling for the parents of said child to pay for any and all care of that child until it is adopted."

In other words what I said you had said. Let the child serve as a method of punishment. And good luck to him/her!!


----------



## KittenKoder

Againsheila said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing, often people who are against abortion also whine and moan about those same kids being on welfare most of their lives, they also complain about the kids being raised wrong and in bad environments. If they truly cared about the children they would need some solution, the only three that would make an impact are abortion, forced adoption, or forced sterilization. Otherwise you can't whine about the kids on welfare because you don't are not allowing for any solution to the problem. That is why it would be. Oh, and to be clear, not saying you in particular it's a broad statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually agree with you on the whining part by conservatives.
> 
> For me, I'm not totally anti-welfare, but I would like it to incorporate some MANDATORY elements:  mandatory education, mandatory job skills training, mandatory classes in nutrition, budgeting, and other life skills.
> 
> People make mistakes, and I totally understand that.  But if we REALLY cared about poor people, we would give them the skills they need to escape from poverty, rather than keeping them trapped in dependency on the government.
> 
> I've known too many poor people who raised exceptional kids to say that we should force them to be sterilized or give up their children simply because they are poor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that doesn't work.  Oprah discovered that the hard way when she put up $40 million of her own money to provide training for poor single parents.  It was a disaster.  The study concluded that people didn't want to better themselves when they could get paid to sit on their butts at home no matter how little that payment amounted to.
> 
> Yes, some poor people do raise exceptional kids and yes we do need to provide help for them, but the truth is that many of those single moms are lousy moms by choice, and yes, I've known some of them.  When a girl says in front of her two kids almost everyday that she should give them up for adoption because she can't afford them and then spends over $100 on tupperware (and this was 20 years ago), there's something desperately wrong.
> 
> I was attacked by a friend for agreeing with the mother in question, she said that was a thoughtless thing for me to say.  I pointed out that any mother who says in front of her kids repeatedly that she should give them up for adoption SHOULD give them up for adoption, it's pretty obvious they'd be better off with someone else.
Click to expand...


You almost described my mother .... except mine was married until a month after I finally left the house. I hate her still ... *sigh* Oh well. But I don't see single parents as the issue, married ones have just as many problems however because of the presence of a second parent there is less of a chance for the child to be a lost cause, my father was the one I leaned toward because he was just ... a decent red neck agnostic (yes they do exist). My mother and father finally divorced and now guess what, my mother was on welfare the last time I saw her, almost too fat to move, and didn't want to work.


----------



## Anguille

Skull Pilot said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> being allowed to live is punishment ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does being forced to live in poverty and in the complete control of a mother who did not want you equate to being allowed to live? Do you think those are conditions which promote life?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then if people know they have to live with their mistakes, don't you think they will make greater efforts to ensure mistakes don't happen?
> 
> If people have to live with the consequences of their actions, don't you think that maybe, just maybe they will act more responsibly?
> 
> You are absolving people from responsibility for their actions and that does no one, even "innocent little babies" any favors.
Click to expand...

If you are so deterrmined to punish these mothers, put them in jail. That is how modern societies deal with criminals.

You contine to call children mistakes that must be used as tools for teaching responsability. 
I do not think that is a repsonsable way to teach responsabilty. It's way to be a hypocrite and a holier than thou . 
It teaches by example not to consider children as human beings in their own right, but merely as tools in some sort of twisted lesson on the responsabilties of humans to other humans.
I think it could be you just want to stick it to anyone who might have need of welfare at a vulnerable age. Otherwise you would be in favor of normal methods of punishment. Incarceration.


----------



## Againsheila

KittenKoder said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually agree with you on the whining part by conservatives.
> 
> For me, I'm not totally anti-welfare, but I would like it to incorporate some MANDATORY elements:  mandatory education, mandatory job skills training, mandatory classes in nutrition, budgeting, and other life skills.
> 
> People make mistakes, and I totally understand that.  But if we REALLY cared about poor people, we would give them the skills they need to escape from poverty, rather than keeping them trapped in dependency on the government.
> 
> I've known too many poor people who raised exceptional kids to say that we should force them to be sterilized or give up their children simply because they are poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that doesn't work.  Oprah discovered that the hard way when she put up $40 million of her own money to provide training for poor single parents.  It was a disaster.  The study concluded that people didn't want to better themselves when they could get paid to sit on their butts at home no matter how little that payment amounted to.
> 
> Yes, some poor people do raise exceptional kids and yes we do need to provide help for them, but the truth is that many of those single moms are lousy moms by choice, and yes, I've known some of them.  When a girl says in front of her two kids almost everyday that she should give them up for adoption because she can't afford them and then spends over $100 on tupperware (and this was 20 years ago), there's something desperately wrong.
> 
> I was attacked by a friend for agreeing with the mother in question, she said that was a thoughtless thing for me to say.  I pointed out that any mother who says in front of her kids repeatedly that she should give them up for adoption SHOULD give them up for adoption, it's pretty obvious they'd be better off with someone else.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You almost described my mother .... except mine was married until a month after I finally left the house. I hate her still ... *sigh* Oh well. But I don't see single parents as the issue, married ones have just as many problems however because of the presence of a second parent there is less of a chance for the child to be a lost cause, my father was the one I leaned toward because he was just ... a decent red neck agnostic (yes they do exist). My mother and father finally divorced and now guess what, my mother was on welfare the last time I saw her, almost too fat to move, and didn't want to work.
Click to expand...


Just imagine how much worse it would have been for you if your mother had been a single mom and you didn't have your father to count on, then tell me children in single parent families aren't "at risk".


----------



## KittenKoder

Againsheila said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that doesn't work.  Oprah discovered that the hard way when she put up $40 million of her own money to provide training for poor single parents.  It was a disaster.  The study concluded that people didn't want to better themselves when they could get paid to sit on their butts at home no matter how little that payment amounted to.
> 
> Yes, some poor people do raise exceptional kids and yes we do need to provide help for them, but the truth is that many of those single moms are lousy moms by choice, and yes, I've known some of them.  When a girl says in front of her two kids almost everyday that she should give them up for adoption because she can't afford them and then spends over $100 on tupperware (and this was 20 years ago), there's something desperately wrong.
> 
> I was attacked by a friend for agreeing with the mother in question, she said that was a thoughtless thing for me to say.  I pointed out that any mother who says in front of her kids repeatedly that she should give them up for adoption SHOULD give them up for adoption, it's pretty obvious they'd be better off with someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You almost described my mother .... except mine was married until a month after I finally left the house. I hate her still ... *sigh* Oh well. But I don't see single parents as the issue, married ones have just as many problems however because of the presence of a second parent there is less of a chance for the child to be a lost cause, my father was the one I leaned toward because he was just ... a decent red neck agnostic (yes they do exist). My mother and father finally divorced and now guess what, my mother was on welfare the last time I saw her, almost too fat to move, and didn't want to work.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just imagine how much worse it would have been for you if your mother had been a single mom and you didn't have your father to count on, then tell me children in single parent families aren't "at risk".
Click to expand...


They are ... on an added note ... my father turned out to be bisexual ... how odd is that, the "gay" agnostic parent being the better of the two.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Women are never exempted from the consequences of their sexual behavior. No matter what the outcome.


That's the truth in a nutshell. Neither women _or_ men are exempted. Laws try to modify and even out how the consequences will affect the rights and lives of both men and women, boys and girls. But they can only do a jerry rigged job of it. Biology is what it is. And modern medicine is a woman's best friend. May women always have recourse to it.


----------



## AllieBaba

#1; there is no correlation between legalized killing of babies and a decrease in welfare. It's a straw man, a red herring, and a completely false argument for abortion. Welfare recipient numbers have increased exponentially, despite the fact that abortion is readily available to all and the primary argument in support of abortion is it's supposed to be the magical cure that will erase poverty and child abuse.  Not true.

#2. #1 makes the statement about conservatives whining about the cost of welfare a non-issue. To pay for abortions in addition to paying more and more for welfare is idiotic, but as #1 shows, is simply a diversion which has no purpose since there's no evidence that abortion and welfare numbers depend on each other in any way....except that as we have increased abortion availability, we have sexualized our children and devalued them to the point where child abuse of every kind continues to grow with leaps and bounds.

#3, we DO have job training programs in place, and they DO work wonderfully. THe federal and state governments REQUIRE welfare recipients to participate. They work, and they are a requirement, so those who don't participate lose their eligibility. We have wonderful success with them.

There are a hardcore population of people that are just unemployable and untrainable. They are mentally ill, abused, and/or addicted. They are unable to help themselves and that number stays the same regardless of what you do. 

But we do have employment programs which go hand in hand with welfare, they are mandatory, they are intense, and they are effective.


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's no different than the pill in that a woman can ovulate the month immediately following the use of either.
> 
> vasectomy and tubal ligation are more similar in their results and the effect on the body than are birth control and abortion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you are wrong. Abortion can have longterm impacts on fertility, including creating a greater risk of tubal pregnancy through scarring at the fallopian tubes. Abortion is SURGERY, with all of the risks that surgery entails. It is not a cosmetic procedure like having a mole removed from your ass.
Click to expand...

 
You need to catch up with current events. Not all abortive techniques involve surgery and none are designed to make a permanent end to reproductive abilities as vasectomy does.


----------



## AllieBaba

Almost all abortions are surgical ones.


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Maybe rent Juno and see if you can think of another possibility.


 
Ha ha ha!!  Figures you would be someone who looks to movies for a view of real life.


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the responsibility is forced and shoved off onto them it's very bad for the baby. Ever hear of child abuse and infanticide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are nothing more than a standard issue suburban white shill for the abortion industry repeating misinformation as if it were fact.
> 
> 
> But, I love how you equate poverty with child abuse and infanticide. The poor are just evil, aren't they? Your arrogance is astounding. It's good that they have middle class white women like you, Anguille, to protect them from themselves.
> 
> You're no different Margaret Sanger, it appears. And you've bought her eugenics-based approach to population control hook, line and sinker.
Click to expand...

 
Did Gunny move this to the conspiracy forum after this post?  I'll have to check.




Just curious why you would think I'm a suburbanite? Or middle class?


----------



## KittenKoder

AllieBaba said:


> #3, we DO have job training programs in place, and they DO work wonderfully. THe federal and state governments REQUIRE welfare recipients to participate. They work, and they are a requirement, so those who don't participate lose their eligibility. We have wonderful success with them.
> 
> There are a hardcore population of people that are just unemployable and untrainable. They are mentally ill, abused, and/or addicted. They are unable to help themselves and that number stays the same regardless of what you do.
> 
> But we do have employment programs which go hand in hand with welfare, they are mandatory, they are intense, and they are effective.



Allie ... no, especially not everywhere. The ones readily available (without going through a ton of hoops) are no federal funded, and the others are not just for welfare. Also only those states that do still have them (a few) may require them but the majority do not. Remember, I am speaking from experience, I had to do it all without their aid, I had to prove myself without an education to succeed because it was impossible. Everytime found a program it was shut down due to lack of funding. Of course Seattle is pretty much bankrupt but we aren't the exception in this matter. Junkies are not untrainable, they just don't want to get better. They whine and moan for attention, claim they want to get clean, only to take the money they get and buy more drugs or beer with it (in Seattle they had to crack down on it so bad that anyone with even a conviction cannot get welfare without showing a long term commitment to a dry program of some sort). All of us who are disabled (yes I am and I admit it openly) are still trainable in something, even the mentally retarded are capable of working in labor positions (I use to train them when I was working in such jobs, and they learned as well as any others could) and physical disabilities can be overcome with jobs which are not hindered by those. Even Steven Hawkins managed to work. Abused ... again personal experience, but I over came that a long time ago, at least well enough to work for 10 years before needing disability, and then once on disability and going through homelessness I still managed to get somewhere, in spite of a lack of schooling nor any programs that would help. The only program that is really available is only available for 18-24 year olds, no others.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> I know several women who've had abortions and with one exception, they've all regretted it. The one exception has had multiple abortions and uses it as a form of birth control, her ONLY form of birth control.


 
I have no doubt you are telling the truth, Sheila, as you are one of the posters here I've come to trust does not lie or exagerate. I am certain what you say about those women you know is true.
In my case, no woman I know who has had an abortion regretted it. Even 16 years later, one who is related to me tells me how glad she is she did it because otherwise she and her husband would not have the two kids they have now.
I knew one woman who did give up her baby for adoption. She could never bring herself to have another child. She felt so bad for what she did and feared the baby fell into the wrong hands. 
That is what the women I know say. 
In any case both of us have only anecdotal evidence for what abortion or release for adoption does to a woman. It may have something to do with the cultural norms our firends and we each grew up with and how we later came to view abortion versus adoption versus having an unwanted child.


----------



## Care4all

Harry Dresden said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the thing is, women that have abortions aren't saying they don't want children...they are just saying they aren't ready.
> 
> 
> 
> then why did, the majority of them anyhow,have unprotected sex?if your not ready you would take the RESPONSIBILITY to use some form of birth control if you must screw.....
Click to expand...


REALLY?  Hmmmmm....then how come ALL MEN do not wear condoms or get their doctor to prescribe the male birth control pill that is out there for them?  

But do all of these men that have unprotected sex, WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY of being a Father, in your opinion because they don't ascertain the proper precautions of birth control for themselves?

Just want to make sure what is good for the goose, is good for the gander... in your head....?

care


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> The difference between Catz and Sky.
> 
> Ten years ago, Catz was fat, and Sky was stupid.
> 
> Catz isn't fat anymore, but Sky remains stupid.
> 
> And somehow, Sky thinks that poking fun at Catz's non-existent fat makes her look smarter. It's sad.
> 
> Catz's legs, circa 2008 (age 42):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catz w/ kids:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More legs:


 
You do have nice legs, catz. But the beauty, inside and out ends about mid thigh.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you read about the history of Margaret Sanger, her background was in eugenics. She had very strong feelings that some people should be permanently sterilized, and that others (particularly poor minorities) should not be having children.
> 
> The goal of opening abortion clinics, particularly in poor areas, was to stop population growth among certain segments of society.
> 
> And, even now, when you hear middle class white women talk about abortion, the issue will always come up of how it would be better for some fetuses to be aborted because their mother is poor (and the assumption goes without saying, minority) and probably would be a bad parent anywhere.
> 
> it's a very ugly and subtle sort of racism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You hang around with some strange people.
Click to expand...

 
Conspiracy people, IMO.


----------



## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> You're like the 40 year old woman who teases her hair and talks baby talk because she thinks it endears her to men....but keeps her retarded daughter chained up in a closet.


 
Who is that? Someone in your past?


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Catz, seriously, this study is very flawed. And I wouldn't care except that if you convince people that being a single-parent puts your children at risk without any real evidence you encourage parents to stay in abusive marriages. Or you encourage them to micromanage and over-protect their kids...adding to the wussification of Americans everywhere.


 
Or she could also be encouraging them to abort. Something she claims she's against.  She's one mixed up broad.


----------



## Anguille

KittenKoder said:


> Okay ... a tough question: Are those against abortion also for forced adoptions or sterilizations?


 
Not me. No sterilization ever. Forced abortion only in an exteme case where the mother was deemed insane and dangerous by a judge following medical testimony.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> So tell us then, what percentage of the homes were single parent and what percentage were two parent?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, you'd have to do further research, and I encourage you to do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, I figured. They don't know either.
Click to expand...

 
Catz is busted. Again.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> When a girl says in front of her two kids almost everyday that she should give them up for adoption because she can't afford them and then spends over $100 on tupperware (and this was 20 years ago), there's something desperately wrong.
> 
> I was attacked by a friend for agreeing with the mother in question, she said that was a thoughtless thing for me to say. I pointed out that any mother who says in front of her kids repeatedly that she should give them up for adoption SHOULD give them up for adoption, it's pretty obvious they'd be better off with someone else.


 
Funny how the right thing sometimes offends people just because it demonstrates that the ideal is not always reality. Not all women are cut out to be mothers. Same with men.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Just imagine how much worse it would have been for you if your mother had been a single mom and you didn't have your father to count on, then tell me children in single parent families aren't "at risk".


One can only suppose. But suppose also that her dad had been the single parent? I might have been better for her.


----------



## dilloduck

Care4all said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the thing is, women that have abortions aren't saying they don't want children...they are just saying they aren't ready.
> 
> 
> 
> then why did, the majority of them anyhow,have unprotected sex?if your not ready you would take the RESPONSIBILITY to use some form of birth control if you must screw.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> REALLY?  Hmmmmm....then how come ALL MEN do not wear condoms or get their doctor to prescribe the male birth control pill that is out there for them?
> 
> But do all of these men that have unprotected sex, WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY of being a Father, in your opinion because they don't ascertain the proper precautions of birth control for themselves?
> 
> Just want to make sure what is good for the goose, is good for the gander... in your head....?
> 
> care
Click to expand...


It's very simple---the woman gets pregnant. I know women don't see that as fair and maybe it isn't but it's the fact, Jack.


----------



## Anguille

I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.



Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.


----------



## del

Anguille said:


> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.



you're easily astonished.


----------



## Care4all

KittenKoder said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> You almost described my mother .... except mine was married until a month after I finally left the house. I hate her still ... *sigh* Oh well. But I don't see single parents as the issue, married ones have just as many problems however because of the presence of a second parent there is less of a chance for the child to be a lost cause, my father was the one I leaned toward because he was just ... a decent red neck agnostic (yes they do exist). My mother and father finally divorced and now guess what, my mother was on welfare the last time I saw her, almost too fat to move, and didn't want to work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just imagine how much worse it would have been for you if your mother had been a single mom and you didn't have your father to count on, then tell me children in single parent families aren't "at risk".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They are ... on an added note ... my father turned out to be bisexual ... how odd is that, the "gay" agnostic parent being the better of the two.
Click to expand...


I wonder if this other side of your father, was really found out by your mother early on in marriage, but maybe never discussed with eachother and this is why she bore so much anger inside of her towards him and maybe even you, and this drove her mad?

Every action has a reaction....ya just never know....

Not that any of this excuses your mother's behavior!  My heart goes out to you....!!!

i had JUST THE OPPOSITE of a family life, with both parents, who have been married now for over 50 years with grand parents that were married 65 years...  pretty much, i was the first one in my entire extended family to be divorced in 2.5 years after my first marriage....so i felt like the Black Sheep of the family almost!   

But never, ever...did I think I was not loved or wanted by both my parents...even after knock down, dragged out, fights.

care


----------



## Said1

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.
Click to expand...


except for there crucifixion, I think it turned out well for them.


----------



## Care4all

dilloduck said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> then why did, the majority of them anyhow,have unprotected sex?if your not ready you would take the RESPONSIBILITY to use some form of birth control if you must screw.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REALLY?  Hmmmmm....then how come ALL MEN do not wear condoms or get their doctor to prescribe the male birth control pill that is out there for them?
> 
> But do all of these men that have unprotected sex, WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY of being a Father, in your opinion because they don't ascertain the proper precautions of birth control for themselves?
> 
> Just want to make sure what is good for the goose, is good for the gander... in your head....?
> 
> care
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's very simple---the woman gets pregnant. I know women don't see that as fair and maybe it isn't but it's the fact, Jack.
Click to expand...


Thus abortion....if it is important to all of these men here, then they would prevent it from happening, no?  

care


----------



## dilloduck

Care4all said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> REALLY?  Hmmmmm....then how come ALL MEN do not wear condoms or get their doctor to prescribe the male birth control pill that is out there for them?
> 
> But do all of these men that have unprotected sex, WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY of being a Father, in your opinion because they don't ascertain the proper precautions of birth control for themselves?
> 
> Just want to make sure what is good for the goose, is good for the gander... in your head....?
> 
> care
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's very simple---the woman gets pregnant. I know women don't see that as fair and maybe it isn't but it's the fact, Jack.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thus abortion....if it is important to all of these men here, then they would prevent it from happening, no?
> 
> care
Click to expand...


they can't


----------



## Care4all

dilloduck said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's very simple---the woman gets pregnant. I know women don't see that as fair and maybe it isn't but it's the fact, Jack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thus abortion....if it is important to all of these men here, then they would prevent it from happening, no?
> 
> care
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> they can't
Click to expand...


cuz God made them that way.....as in sex drive? 

or because you think ALL these men that knock up women want to have their children born and ALL beg these girls to PLEASE have their babies?


----------



## dilloduck

Care4all said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thus abortion....if it is important to all of these men here, then they would prevent it from happening, no?
> 
> care
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they can't
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> cuz God made them that way.....as in sex drive?
> 
> or because you think ALL these men that knock up women want to have their children born and ALL beg these girls to PLEASE have their babies?
Click to expand...


Men don't try as hard as women do as far as birth control because they do not get pregnant. They simply are not motivated as much  biologically as a woman is.. After prenancy, the man can do nothing but face the conequences of the women's decision.


----------



## Care4all

Maybe the "punishment" for men needs to be greater ....with thinking like Skull's on this topic???

Maybe it is the father of this child that should "take care of them", until the child is adopted....?


----------



## dilloduck

Care4all said:


> Maybe the "punishment" for men needs to be greater ....with thinking like Skull's on this topic???
> 
> Maybe it is the father of this child that should "take care of them", until the child is adopted....?



Well even if all the rules and expectations are changed it still doesn't change anatomy and THAT is the only issue. If I were a woman I would be FAR more careful about my sexual exploits and I am very careful as a man.


----------



## Care4all

dilloduck said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the "punishment" for men needs to be greater ....with thinking like Skull's on this topic???
> 
> Maybe it is the father of this child that should "take care of them", until the child is adopted....?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well even if all the rules and expectations are changed it still doesn't change anatomy and THAT is the only issue. If I were a woman I would be FAR more careful about my sexual exploits and I am very careful as a man.
Click to expand...


yeah, i suppose that is easier said, than done for an 18 or 20 year old....not like they have the experience behind them as an old dude like you do or an older broad like me does...


----------



## dilloduck

Care4all said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the "punishment" for men needs to be greater ....with thinking like Skull's on this topic???
> 
> Maybe it is the father of this child that should "take care of them", until the child is adopted....?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well even if all the rules and expectations are changed it still doesn't change anatomy and THAT is the only issue. If I were a woman I would be FAR more careful about my sexual exploits and I am very careful as a man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah, i suppose that is easier said, than done for an 18 or 20 year old....not like they have the experience behind them as an old dude like you do or an older broad like me does...
Click to expand...


Never said it was easy for anyone--just pointing out the obvious difference in motivating factors.


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.
Click to expand...

 
I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.

Where are the Catz Stats on that?


----------



## Anguille

del said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you're easily astonished.
Click to expand...

 Your avatar looks a little astonished at _that_.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.
> 
> Where are the Catz Stats on that?
Click to expand...


I don't believe God and Mary were officially married.


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.
> 
> Where are the Catz Stats on that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't believe God and Mary were officially married.
Click to expand...

 Exactly, that's what I said. And I suppose God was even older than Joseph.


----------



## Anguille

Care4all said:


> Maybe the "punishment" for men needs to be greater ....with thinking like Skull's on this topic???
> 
> Maybe it is the father of this child that should "take care of them", until the child is adopted....?


 
Interesting logic.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.
> 
> Where are the Catz Stats on that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe God and Mary were officially married.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly, that's what I said. And I suppose God was even older than Joseph.
Click to expand...


NOT--you said


> While being married to and old man.


quit trying to squirm out of it. And Jesus' dad was eternally present. Knew everything the guy was goingg to do before he even did it.


----------



## Care4all

dilloduck said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well even if all the rules and expectations are changed it still doesn't change anatomy and THAT is the only issue. If I were a woman I would be FAR more careful about my sexual exploits and I am very careful as a man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, i suppose that is easier said, than done for an 18 or 20 year old....not like they have the experience behind them as an old dude like you do or an older broad like me does...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never said it was easy for anyone--just pointing out the obvious difference in motivating factors.
Click to expand...


but what makes that any different for the woman, and how she is made?  whether she wants to or not, her body make up tells her that she is to produce babies?  and i am not talking about the women that end up aborting, but the 43% that do end up delivering their children as single women...?

Just seems that BOTH male and female should take precautions, because many women will not abort and many women will choose to have a child out of wedlock, and the daddy will have to put out some bucks for their upkeep, not much, but enough to strap them a little....you would think that this is enough reason as well, no?  Or is money really not that much of a burdon compared to single motherhood for the poor?


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe God and Mary were officially married.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, that's what I said. And I suppose God was even older than Joseph.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> NOT--you said
> 
> 
> 
> While being married to and old man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> quit trying to squirm out of it. And Jesus' dad was eternally present. Knew everything the guy was goingg to do before he even did it.
Click to expand...

 rae*

Granted I'm no biblical scholar but Mary was married to Joseph, right?  An old guy, right? And while married to joseph she got pregnant by God, right? Who also was very old. But not known to be a guy, a man, being devine and all, right?


----------



## Agnapostate

catzmeow said:


> If you read about the history of Margaret Sanger, her background was in eugenics.  She had very strong feelings that some people should be permanently sterilized, and that others (particularly poor minorities) should not be having children.
> 
> The goal of opening abortion clinics, particularly in poor areas, was to stop population growth among certain segments of society.
> 
> And, even now, when you hear middle class white women talk about abortion, the issue will always come up of how it would be better for some fetuses to be aborted because their mother is poor (and the assumption goes without saying, minority) and probably would be a bad parent anywhere.
> 
> it's a very ugly and subtle sort of racism.



That's amusing, considering that your irrational opposition to teenage pregnancy largely goes along with what essentially amounts to a eugenics program targeted at minority youth.



Sky Dancer said:


> What's interesting to me is why is Amanda's _age _relevant?



I believe Bristol Palin was being referenced.



Mad Scientist said:


> Because if they acknowledge that a mom and dad are the best family unit then that blows up any argument that two dads or two moms are just as good. Or a dad and a goat. Or mom and a monkey etc...



Uh...that doesn't really do anything, considering that the main issue involved is income. In fact, that would seem to be a benefit of polyamory or polygamy.



Anguille said:


> Just curious why you would think I'm a suburbanite? Or middle class?



She apparently believes that to be true of everyone with differing opinions on poverty and crime, including an amusing insinuation that I was "suburban," and a suggestion that I go into the "inner city" sometime. It's understandable. Naturally, being a chubby white woman who grew up on a farm in Missouri, she's a hard-core gangsta.  



Anguille said:


> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.



Yeah, I found that amusing, considering AllieBabble's presence and her rather expansive (read: inaccurate) definition of "pedophilia."



Anguille said:


> Granted I'm no biblical scholar but Mary was married to Joseph, right?  An old guy, right? And while married to joseph she got pregnant by God, right? Who also was very old. But not known to be a guy, a man, being devine and all, right?



Joseph was likely an older man, considering the cultural practices of the time and the fact that unlike Jesus's mother and brothers, he does not appear at any point in Jesus's ministry, indicating that he may have died.


----------



## LiveUninhibited

Againsheila said:


> When a girl says in front of her two kids almost everyday that she should give them up for adoption because she can't afford them and then spends over $100 on tupperware (and this was 20 years ago), there's something desperately wrong.
> 
> I was attacked by a friend for agreeing with the mother in question, she said that was a thoughtless thing for me to say.  I pointed out that any mother who says in front of her kids repeatedly that she should give them up for adoption SHOULD give them up for adoption, it's pretty obvious they'd be better off with someone else.



While I agree she shouldn't say things like that, saying that would not cause quite the same feelings of rejection and abandonment as actually doing it, which could have lifelong consequences for the self-esteem of the kids. If it was my friend I'd talk to her privately about how that might make her kids feel and see if I can help her come up with a solution. (Knowing full well it'd be a sensitive issue, of course. People don't like to feel criticized as parents).

It would also have to be pretty bad for me to think the foster care system could do a better job:



> Nearly half of foster kids in the U.S. become homeless when they turn 18





> Although foster care is one solution to protecting children from abuse, it is an imperfect system which is also associated with relatively high rates of abuse and risks.


 (wikipedia on foster care)



dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.
Click to expand...


Mary: "Oh God! That was immaculate."

Good thing the statute of limitations has passed, or else god might get arrested for statutory rape.


----------



## Agnapostate

Has anyone actually posted or watched the video? 

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eixcsj7FI6I&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eixcsj7FI6I&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

There's another segment where her mother brings her son in to her. She seems a loving mother, and the disparagement is entirely unnecessary.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I figured. They don't know either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so let me sum this up.  I've provided you with credible research performed by people who are THE EXPERTS in the field.  And you, with your zero years of experience in social development research, have dismissed their findings and provided no evidence to back up YOUR position.
> 
> Is that how you generally argue your case?
> 
> And people find you credible?
> 
> I seriously have to wonder why anyone even responds to you.
Click to expand...

Because I'm a lucky bitch, of course. 

They might be experts but that doesn't mean they are infallible. Quite often scientific studies draw the wrong conclusion. I don't have to back anything up, I don't know the answers. All I know is that this study didn't take into account abusive parental behavior, nor can I find the percentage of single parent homes and dual parent homes. Both those things throw their findings into question.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Can someone explain to me why people like Anguille and Ravi are so invested in the idea that having a dad present in a home isn't important to kids' well-being?  Because, this ain't rocket science, and I don't get why this particular paradigm is so important that it makes them incapable of being rational.


Now you're just having a hissy fit. I already explained to you that I'm uncomfortable with a study that draws a conclusion that sounds false. BECAUSE this kind of thing keeps people in abusive marriages for the sake of the kids. 

btw, isn't that a bit sexist of you...assuming that it's the dad we want to get rid of....


----------



## KittenKoder

catzmeow said:


> Can someone explain to me why people like Anguille and Ravi are so invested in the idea that having a dad present in a home isn't important to kids' well-being?  Because, this ain't rocket science, and I don't get why this particular paradigm is so important that it makes them incapable of being rational.



Thing is, it doesn't matter if it's a mother/father, two mothers, or two fathers. Multiple parents lead to better raising of children primarily for financial needs, one is suppose to work and the other spend more time raising them. However this is becoming less the case now as all parents seem to work more and more, so even in two (or more) parent households the results are becoming more and more like the single parent households, either on welfare or the children behaving like lunatics. There are a LOT of factors as to why this is now the case, but it is. The most successful working class families have more than two "parents" or even more than one genetic family in the home sharing the responsibilities. In the perfect society a single parent would be able to raise their children just fine, but we are nowhere near a perfect society.


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Catz, seriously, this study is very flawed. And I wouldn't care except that if you convince people that being a single-parent puts your children at risk without any real evidence you encourage parents to stay in abusive marriages. Or you encourage them to micromanage and over-protect their kids...adding to the wussification of Americans everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Or she could also be encouraging them to abort*. Something she claims she's against.  She's one mixed up broad.
Click to expand...

Good point.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're just having a hissy fit. I already explained to you that I'm uncomfortable with a study that draws a conclusion that sounds false. BECAUSE this kind of thing keeps people in abusive marriages for the sake of the kids.
> 
> btw, isn't that a bit sexist of you...assuming that it's the dad we want to get rid of....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion only sounds false to you, Ravi, because holding on to your particular paradigm is more important than being logical.
> 
> And for the record, I would NEVER advocate that a woman or man stay in an abusive marriage for ANY reason, so that's a strawman.
> 
> It's funny how you will only accept scientific data when it fits your foregone conclusions.  It's kind of like arguing creationism with a fundamentalist.  You're a fundamentalist liberal.  You are only capable of exercising critical thought when ideas fit your internal biases.
Click to expand...


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> Thing is, it doesn't matter if it's a mother/father, two mothers, or two fathers. Multiple parents lead to better raising of children primarily for financial needs, one is suppose to work and the other spend more time raising them. However this is becoming less the case now as all parents seem to work more and more, so even in two (or more) parent households the results are becoming more and more like the single parent households, either on welfare or the children behaving like lunatics. There are a LOT of factors as to why this is now the case, but it is. The most successful working class families have more than two "parents" or even more than one genetic family in the home sharing the responsibilities. In the perfect society a single parent would be able to raise their children just fine, but we are nowhere near a perfect society.



Totally agree.  In some societies, extended families play a much larger role than they do in standard American society, and that extended foundation of support is very helpful in providing a stable home.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with being against single parents, or suggesting that people should stay in miserable unhappy marriages.  I am ONLY suggesting that we need to be aware that children need multiple stable adults in their lives.  Remove a parent from the home, of either gender, and that's a hole that has to be filled by the remaining parent.  I would never say it can't be done, because I believe it can, but it just makes it more difficult.


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Totally agree. In some societies, extended families play a much larger role than they do in standard American society, and that extended foundation of support is very helpful in providing a stable home.
> 
> quote]
> 
> While I agree with the above statement, I still expect some Catz Stats before I can accept your opinon as valid.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> The conclusion only sounds false to you, Ravi, because holding on to your particular paradigm is more important than being logical.
> 
> And for the record, I would NEVER advocate that a woman or man stay in an abusive marriage for ANY reason, so that's a strawman.
> 
> It's funny how you will only accept scientific data when it fits your foregone conclusions.  It's kind of like arguing creationism with a fundamentalist.  You're a fundamentalist liberal.  You are only capable of exercising critical thought when ideas fit your internal biases.


The conclusion sounds false to me because they didn't ask about abusive treatment from parents and they didn't give the number of single-parent versus dual parent homes. You may think the answers to those questions are meaningless but they are not.

I did not say you would advocate anyone stay in an abusive marriage. I said the study might convince someone they should. You are the one employing a strawman, dearie.

You aren't capable of exercising critical thought at all apparently, as you believe totally anything that is written in a study.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> While I agree with the above statement, I still expect some Catz Stats before I can accept your opinon as valid.



Providing you with stats is a huge waste of effort.  Even I, slow learner that I am, have figured that one out.  You aren't interested in stats.  You're interested in talking to show us how morally superior you are.


----------



## Againsheila

Anguille said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm astonished no one has yet brought up the Jesus was the child of a poor teenage mother thing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.
> 
> Where are the Catz Stats on that?
Click to expand...


She wasn't a single mom, was she?

Then again, you could say Jesus was a gang member, what with his 12 disciples following him around.


----------



## Againsheila

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion only sounds false to you, Ravi, because holding on to your particular paradigm is more important than being logical.
> 
> And for the record, I would NEVER advocate that a woman or man stay in an abusive marriage for ANY reason, so that's a strawman.
> 
> It's funny how you will only accept scientific data when it fits your foregone conclusions.  It's kind of like arguing creationism with a fundamentalist.  You're a fundamentalist liberal.  You are only capable of exercising critical thought when ideas fit your internal biases.
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion sounds false to me because they didn't ask about abusive treatment from parents and they didn't give the number of single-parent versus dual parent homes. You may think the answers to those questions are meaningless but they are not.
> 
> I did not say you would advocate anyone stay in an abusive marriage. I said the study might convince someone they should. You are the one employing a strawman, dearie.
> 
> You aren't capable of exercising critical thought at all apparently, as you believe totally anything that is written in a study.
Click to expand...


Or perhaps it would convince someone who's looking for something better to stick with the marriage she or he has and work it out, instead of destroying their whole family because they have an itch they want scratched.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cmon---his dad was God, for Christ sakes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.
> 
> Where are the Catz Stats on that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She wasn't a single mom, was she?
> 
> Then again, you could say Jesus was a gang member, what with his 12 disciples following him around.
Click to expand...

 
So I guess her not being a single mom yet raising a god of a man in spite of poverty, an extramarital affair, relationships with much older men/gods, being underage etc actually proves that single moms suck!!!!   

Yikes!!!!


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion only sounds false to you, Ravi, because holding on to your particular paradigm is more important than being logical.
> 
> And for the record, I would NEVER advocate that a woman or man stay in an abusive marriage for ANY reason, so that's a strawman.
> 
> It's funny how you will only accept scientific data when it fits your foregone conclusions. It's kind of like arguing creationism with a fundamentalist. You're a fundamentalist liberal. You are only capable of exercising critical thought when ideas fit your internal biases.
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion sounds false to me because they didn't ask about abusive treatment from parents and they didn't give the number of single-parent versus dual parent homes. You may think the answers to those questions are meaningless but they are not.
> 
> I did not say you would advocate anyone stay in an abusive marriage. I said the study might convince someone they should. You are the one employing a strawman, dearie.
> 
> You aren't capable of exercising critical thought at all apparently, as you believe totally anything that is written in a study.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or perhaps it would convince someone who's looking for something better to stick with the marriage she or he has and work it out, instead of destroying their whole family because they have an itch they want scratched.
Click to expand...

 
It depends on how bad the marriage is. I don't think it's good for the family or sets a good example for the kids if a woman or a man is putting up with serious abuse from their spouse. 

But I agree that most relationships can be worked out with time and effort and become happy ones. Not everyone is best in a relationship though. I think living as a single person is a perfectly valid and preferable existance for many.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> The conclusion sounds false to me because they didn't ask about abusive treatment from parents and they didn't give the number of single-parent versus dual parent homes. You may think the answers to those questions are meaningless but they are not.



Again, you are misrepresenting the study AND my opinions.  Of course youth were asked questions about their home life, including questions about abuse and neglect.  The study is one of the more comprehensive studies EVER conducted in the lives of youth, longitudinally, and followed these young people for two decades, asking questions about their home lives, family structures, school experiences, peers, communities, and personal lives.  The fact that you didn't bother to actually read beyond the tip of your nose does not invalidate the study.



> I did not say you would advocate anyone stay in an abusive marriage. I said the study might convince someone they should. You are the one employing a strawman, dearie.



There is no reason why anyone should stay in an abusive marriage, and I would be the last person to urge it.  Nor was this study conducted by conservatives with the goal of keeping people married, as you seem to assume.  The study was federally funded and designed to measure the causes and correlates of delinquency to guide policy decisions about prevention and intervention activities.



> You aren't capable of exercising critical thought at all apparently, as you believe totally anything that is written in a study.



I will say that I do find a study that has been repeatedly validated by other, similar studies, that was incredibly comprehensive in scope, and conducted over more than 2 decades is a bit more trustworthy as a source than the opinion you plucked out of your ass with no research, no credentials, and no experience in the field.

I'm weird like that.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> I think living as a single person is a perfectly valid and preferable existance for many.



Of course it is.  And, if that single person is a parent, that parent should realize that he/she will need to take extra measures to provide stable, responsible adults in the life of his/her child, and work extra hard on that relationship.  The. End.

That was my point.


----------



## Againsheila

Anguille said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.
> 
> Where are the Catz Stats on that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She wasn't a single mom, was she?
> 
> Then again, you could say Jesus was a gang member, what with his 12 disciples following him around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I guess her not being a single mom yet raising a god of a man in spite of poverty, an extramarital affair, relationships with much older men/gods, being underage etc actually proves that single moms suck!!!!
> 
> Yikes!!!!
Click to expand...


Seriously, I don't think anyone here is saying that single moms suck.  We are saying that it is better for a child to be raised by TWO parents than it is for that child to be raised by ONE parent.  Statistically that is the case.  Even reports I've read on gay parents, the kids raised by two gay parents do better than kids raised by one parent.

IMO when it comes to adoption, the priority should be as follows..

1) married heterosexual couples (a mother and father figure)
2) gay couples (two parents are better than one)
3) single parents (one parent is better than none)


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> I did not say you would advocate anyone stay in an abusive marriage. I said the study might convince someone they should. You are the one employing a strawman, dearie.
> 
> You aren't capable of exercising critical thought at all apparently, as you believe totally anything that is written in a study.


 
Catz is clever at picking up the buzz words but she doesn't know how to analyze what she reads. She accepts it as gospel. She wants to please.


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think living as a single person is a perfectly valid and preferable existance for many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is. And, if that single person is a parent, that parent should realize that he/she will need to take extra measures to provide stable, responsible adults in the life of his/her child, and work extra hard on that relationship. The. End.
> 
> That was my point.
Click to expand...

 Wasn't even talking to you, bozo.
And stop telling us how much extra work a single mom like yourself has. We get the point. You're a martyr.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> Wasn't even talking to you, bozo.



Oh, my bad.  I was under the impression that you'd posted your opinion on a public bullet board.  Were you having a private conversation?  Then perhaps you should have used the PM function.



> And stop telling us how much extra work a single mom like yourself has. We get the point. You're a martyr.



That wasn't the point, retardando.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> Catz is clever at picking up the buzz words but she doesn't know how to analyze what she reads. She accepts it as gospel. She wants to please.



Coming from you, this is a rich delicious chocolate cake made of irony.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> She wasn't a single mom, was she?
> 
> Then again, you could say Jesus was a gang member, what with his 12 disciples following him around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess her not being a single mom yet raising a god of a man in spite of poverty, an extramarital affair, relationships with much older men/gods, being underage etc actually proves that single moms suck!!!!
> 
> Yikes!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seriously, I don't think anyone here is saying that single moms suck. We are saying that it is better for a child to be raised by TWO parents than it is for that child to be raised by ONE parent. Statistically that is the case. Even reports I've read on gay parents, the kids raised by two gay parents do better than kids raised by one parent.
> 
> IMO when it comes to adoption, the priority should be as follows..
> 
> 1) married heterosexual couples (a mother and father figure)
> 2) gay couples (two parents are better than one)
> 3) single parents (one parent is better than none)
Click to expand...

 
In an ideal world that might be possible, even if not valid, to put into action. The point is though, too many kids are not considered prime adoption material. Wrong color, too old, handicapped. etc. 

I know 3 single mothers of adopted kids. One is now marrried and her daughter is 5. She had made a lot of money before adopting so that was never an issue.
The other is a grandmother already, her daughter having had 3 kids with her high school sweatheart now husband. She got advanced degrees and put off her own romantic needs to adopt a problem 11 year old and foster her brother. When they grew up and moved into their own homes my friend began a relationship with a longtime friend and now he is grand father to her grandkids. 
My cousin was a stay at home mom who adopted 2 babies from teen mothers after she was married. Her husband died when one was 5 and the other 3. She also has done a great job, went from overnight manager of a hotel to getting a teaching certificate so she could work hours that allowed her to be with her kids. 

All these kids are doing very well and better than they would have had they remained in foster care or the orphanages.

My grandmother and great uncle were raised by their father when their mother died. They did have to spend some of their younger years in an orphanage and a year back in Sweden.

My grandfather was raised by his divorced mother.

Both my grandparents were excellent, wonderful people who did fine.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Anguille said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think living as a single person is a perfectly valid and preferable existance for many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is. And, if that single person is a parent, that parent should realize that he/she will need to take extra measures to provide stable, responsible adults in the life of his/her child, and work extra hard on that relationship. The. End.
> 
> That was my point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wasn't even talking to you, bozo.
> And stop telling us how much extra work a single mom like yourself has. We get the point. You're a martyr.
Click to expand...


Ever see the SNL skit on the Weiners?  

I see a political future for Bristol Palin.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> In an ideal world that might be possible, even if not valid, to put into action. The point is though, too many kids are not considered prime adoption material. Wrong color, too old, handicapped. etc.
> 
> I know 3 single mothers of adopted kids. One is now marrried and her daughter is 5. She had made a lot of money before adopting so that was never an issue.



I think it is great when ANYONE, male, female, single, married, straight or gay, adopts children out of the foster care system.  I have a good friend in California who is a lesbian who has adopted 5 special needs kids and has done a truly remarkable job of raising them.  

I don't think you understand what has been said here.  Clearly, being with a single person in a stable family situation is better for a child than being in an unstable foster care situation, in almost every case.  And, single parents DO FINE in raising kids, for the most part.  But, when you couple single parenting with other risk factors, those risk factors add up.

Kids can have 2-3 risk factors in their lives and grow up great and healthy.  When you start getting into having 4 or more risk factors, though, and single parent families are one of them, then there start to be issues.


----------



## Againsheila

Anguille said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess her not being a single mom yet raising a god of a man in spite of poverty, an extramarital affair, relationships with much older men/gods, being underage etc actually proves that single moms suck!!!!
> 
> Yikes!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, I don't think anyone here is saying that single moms suck. We are saying that it is better for a child to be raised by TWO parents than it is for that child to be raised by ONE parent. Statistically that is the case. Even reports I've read on gay parents, the kids raised by two gay parents do better than kids raised by one parent.
> 
> IMO when it comes to adoption, the priority should be as follows..
> 
> 1) married heterosexual couples (a mother and father figure)
> 2) gay couples (two parents are better than one)
> 3) single parents (one parent is better than none)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In an ideal world that might be possible, even if not valid, to put into action. The point is though, too many kids are not considered prime adoption material. Wrong color, too old, handicapped. etc.
> 
> I know 3 single mothers of adopted kids. One is now marrried and her daughter is 5. She had made a lot of money before adopting so that was never an issue.
> The other is a grandmother already, her daughter having had 3 kids with her high school sweatheart now husband. She got advanced degrees and put off her own romantic needs to adopt a problem 11 year old and foster her brother. When they grew up and moved into their own homes my friend began a relationship with a longtime friend and now he is grand father to her grandkids.
> My cousin was a stay at home mom who adopted 2 babies from teen mothers after she was married. Her husband died when one was 5 and the other 3. She also has done a great job, went from overnight manager of a hotel to getting a teaching certificate so she could work hours that allowed her to be with her kids.
> 
> All these kids are doing very well and better than they would have had they remained in foster care or the orphanages.
> 
> My grandmother and great uncle were raised by their father when their mother died. They did have to spend some of their younger years in an orphanage and a year back in Sweden.
> 
> My grandfather was raised by his divorced mother.
> 
> Both my grandparents were excellent, wonderful people who did fine.
Click to expand...


Again, see my post... we are not saying single parents suck, we are saying that two parents are as a rule, better for a child than one parent.

There are always exceptions to every rule.

As to being the wrong color or too old to adopt, I have friends that are fostering to adopt.  One child, a crack baby, they adopted while he was a baby, the other two are toddlers now and they will adopt them as soon as they are able.  The father of one of them has never seen his little girl, but doesn't want to give up his rights, which, imo, is bad for his little girl who is currently being raised by the only parents she has ever known.  Oh, my friends are white, two of their kids are black.

My neighbor adopted an 11 year old with a cleft palette from China.  He's now 14 and has had several operations, more to go.  He's a wonderful kid who comes over to play with and groom my dog.  He wants to be a veterinarian.

I also know a woman who adopted a 16 year old autistic boy with the intelligence of a two year old.  She had been the child's aid at school for several years when she found out he was up for adoption.

I also know a single woman who has adopted 3 children, all special needs.  They have a wonderful mom.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Again, see my post... we are not saying single parents suck, we are saying that two parents are as a rule, better for a child than one parent.
> 
> There are always exceptions to every rule.
> 
> As to being the wrong color or too old to adopt, I have friends that are fostering to adopt. One child, a crack baby, they adopted while he was a baby, the other two are toddlers now and they will adopt them as soon as they are able. The father of one of them has never seen his little girl, but doesn't want to give up his rights, which, imo, is bad for his little girl who is currently being raised by the only parents she has ever known. Oh, my friends are white, two of their kids are black.
> 
> My neighbor adopted an 11 year old with a cleft palette from China. He's now 14 and has had several operations, more to go. He's a wonderful kid who comes over to play with and groom my dog. He wants to be a veterinarian.
> 
> I also know a woman who adopted a 16 year old autistic boy with the intelligence of a two year old. She had been the child's aid at school for several years when she found out he was up for adoption.
> 
> I also know a single woman who has adopted 3 children, all special needs. They have a wonderful mom.


I forgot to mention the good friend of my mother who after having 2 natural children, adopted a rainbow coalition of 5 more kids with her husband. All doing extremely well. All very close and loving to each other. 

So it looks like between the bunch of us here, we have come up with several exceptions to the "rule". But few, if any, families that fit the rule.


----------



## Anguille

Sky Dancer said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is. And, if that single person is a parent, that parent should realize that he/she will need to take extra measures to provide stable, responsible adults in the life of his/her child, and work extra hard on that relationship. The. End.
> 
> That was my point.
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't even talking to you, bozo.
> And stop telling us how much extra work a single mom like yourself has. We get the point. You're a martyr.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever see the SNL skit on the Weiners?
> 
> I see a political future for Bristol Palin.
Click to expand...

 
No I haven't.


----------



## Againsheila

Anguille said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, see my post... we are not saying single parents suck, we are saying that two parents are as a rule, better for a child than one parent.
> 
> There are always exceptions to every rule.
> 
> As to being the wrong color or too old to adopt, I have friends that are fostering to adopt. One child, a crack baby, they adopted while he was a baby, the other two are toddlers now and they will adopt them as soon as they are able. The father of one of them has never seen his little girl, but doesn't want to give up his rights, which, imo, is bad for his little girl who is currently being raised by the only parents she has ever known. Oh, my friends are white, two of their kids are black.
> 
> My neighbor adopted an 11 year old with a cleft palette from China. He's now 14 and has had several operations, more to go. He's a wonderful kid who comes over to play with and groom my dog. He wants to be a veterinarian.
> 
> I also know a woman who adopted a 16 year old autistic boy with the intelligence of a two year old. She had been the child's aid at school for several years when she found out he was up for adoption.
> 
> I also know a single woman who has adopted 3 children, all special needs. They have a wonderful mom.
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention the good friend of my mother who after having 2 natural children, adopted a rainbow coalition of 5 more kids with her husband. All doing extremely well. All very close and loving to each other.
> 
> So it looks like between the bunch of us here, we have come up with several exceptions to the "rule". But few, if any, families that fit the rule.
Click to expand...


My neighbors fit the rule, my friends who adopted one child and are fostering two others fit the rule, my family fits the rule, in fact everyone in my family fits the rule.  My son's friend fits the rule, he's really messed up thanks to his divorced and remarried crazy mom and his sister just became a single mom.  I also know a woman who was on welfare with 3 children, one of those kids I practically raised, he did fine, the other two have been in major trouble, although I did everything I could for them, including keeping my mouth shut about what a crappy mother she was.  

believe me, I know far more people who fit the rule than those who don't.  Then there was single mom I told you about that kept saying, in front of her kids, that she ought to give them up for adoption...there's another example of the rule.  Then there is the fact that most of my oldest son's friends are from single parent families and NONE of them drive, even though they are old enough to, and only one of them works, he's an exception to the rest of the people in his single parent household.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Anguille said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't even talking to you, bozo.
> And stop telling us how much extra work a single mom like yourself has. We get the point. You're a martyr.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever see the SNL skit on the Weiners?
> 
> I see a political future for Bristol Palin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No I haven't.
Click to expand...


It's old.  It was funny.  It was pronounced whiners.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, see my post... we are not saying single parents suck, we are saying that two parents are as a rule, better for a child than one parent.
> 
> There are always exceptions to every rule.
> 
> As to being the wrong color or too old to adopt, I have friends that are fostering to adopt. One child, a crack baby, they adopted while he was a baby, the other two are toddlers now and they will adopt them as soon as they are able. The father of one of them has never seen his little girl, but doesn't want to give up his rights, which, imo, is bad for his little girl who is currently being raised by the only parents she has ever known. Oh, my friends are white, two of their kids are black.
> 
> My neighbor adopted an 11 year old with a cleft palette from China. He's now 14 and has had several operations, more to go. He's a wonderful kid who comes over to play with and groom my dog. He wants to be a veterinarian.
> 
> I also know a woman who adopted a 16 year old autistic boy with the intelligence of a two year old. She had been the child's aid at school for several years when she found out he was up for adoption.
> 
> I also know a single woman who has adopted 3 children, all special needs. They have a wonderful mom.
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention the good friend of my mother who after having 2 natural children, adopted a rainbow coalition of 5 more kids with her husband. All doing extremely well. All very close and loving to each other.
> 
> So it looks like between the bunch of us here, we have come up with several exceptions to the "rule". But few, if any, families that fit the rule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My neighbors fit the rule, my friends who adopted one child and are fostering two others fit the rule, my family fits the rule, in fact everyone in my family fits the rule. My son's friend fits the rule, he's really messed up thanks to his divorced and remarried crazy mom and his sister just became a single mom. I also know a woman who was on welfare with 3 children, one of those kids I practically raised, he did fine, the other two have been in major trouble, although I did everything I could for them, including keeping my mouth shut about what a crappy mother she was.
> 
> believe me, I know far more people who fit the rule than those who don't. Then there was single mom I told you about that kept saying, in front of her kids, that she ought to give them up for adoption...there's another example of the rule. Then there is the fact that most of my oldest son's friends are from single parent families and NONE of them drive, even though they are old enough to, and only one of them works, he's an exception to the rest of the people in his single parent household.
Click to expand...

 Well now we're back to talk about the "rule" and how it must be true. Which is generally most people's favored way of speaking about the "rule".
Which says as much about the people talking about it as it does about the people for whom the "rule" was invented. 

Thank dog there are families like Echo's and my cousin's and my two friend's who just keep on being happy families in spite of how others want to portray them as some sort of exception and freaks of nature.


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> Well now we're back to talk about the "rule" and how it must be true. Which is generally most people's favored way of speaking about the "rule".
> Which says as much about the people talking about it as it does about the people for whom the "rule" was invented.
> 
> Thank dog there are families like Echo's and my cousin's and my two friend's who just keep on being happy families in spite of how others want to portray them as some sort of exception and freaks of nature.



Your simplistic, black and white thinking on this subject is truly sad.  NO ONE HERE has villified single parents as BAD PARENTS, or FREAKS OF NATURE.  The research simply indicates that in terms of raising healthy children, the more responsible adults in a child's life, the better.  And, if those people are the child's parents (gay/straight, male/female), that's the best situation of all.

Why is this so difficult for you to deal with, Eel?


----------



## Anguille

catzmeow said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well now we're back to talk about the "rule" and how it must be true. Which is generally most people's favored way of speaking about the "rule".
> Which says as much about the people talking about it as it does about the people for whom the "rule" was invented.
> 
> Thank dog there are families like Echo's and my cousin's and my two friend's who just keep on being happy families in spite of how others want to portray them as some sort of exception and freaks of nature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your simplistic, black and white thinking on this subject is truly sad. NO ONE HERE has villified single parents as BAD PARENTS, or FREAKS OF NATURE. The research simply indicates that in terms of raising healthy children, the more responsible adults in a child's life, the better. And, if those people are the child's parents (gay/straight, male/female), that's the best situation of all.
> 
> Why is this so difficult for you to deal with, Eel?
Click to expand...

 
Were you on SNL?


----------



## catzmeow

Anguille said:


> Were you on SNL?



No.  Were you on America's funniest Videos?


----------



## Againsheila

Anguille said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention the good friend of my mother who after having 2 natural children, adopted a rainbow coalition of 5 more kids with her husband. All doing extremely well. All very close and loving to each other.
> 
> So it looks like between the bunch of us here, we have come up with several exceptions to the "rule". But few, if any, families that fit the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbors fit the rule, my friends who adopted one child and are fostering two others fit the rule, my family fits the rule, in fact everyone in my family fits the rule. My son's friend fits the rule, he's really messed up thanks to his divorced and remarried crazy mom and his sister just became a single mom. I also know a woman who was on welfare with 3 children, one of those kids I practically raised, he did fine, the other two have been in major trouble, although I did everything I could for them, including keeping my mouth shut about what a crappy mother she was.
> 
> believe me, I know far more people who fit the rule than those who don't. Then there was single mom I told you about that kept saying, in front of her kids, that she ought to give them up for adoption...there's another example of the rule. Then there is the fact that most of my oldest son's friends are from single parent families and NONE of them drive, even though they are old enough to, and only one of them works, he's an exception to the rest of the people in his single parent household.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well now we're back to talk about the "rule" and how it must be true. Which is generally most people's favored way of speaking about the "rule".
> Which says as much about the people talking about it as it does about the people for whom the "rule" was invented.
> 
> Thank dog there are families like Echo's and my cousin's and my two friend's who just keep on being happy families in spite of how others want to portray them as some sort of exception and freaks of nature.
Click to expand...


Yeah, let's get dramatic and make stuff up, that'll win the debate for you, NOT!


----------



## Andrew2382

I think Chris and Sealy were on SNL

The Ambiguously Gay Duo?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Anguille said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well now we're back to talk about the "rule" and how it must be true. Which is generally most people's favored way of speaking about the "rule".
> Which says as much about the people talking about it as it does about the people for whom the "rule" was invented.
> 
> Thank dog there are families like Echo's and my cousin's and my two friend's who just keep on being happy families in spite of how others want to portray them as some sort of exception and freaks of nature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your simplistic, black and white thinking on this subject is truly sad. NO ONE HERE has villified single parents as BAD PARENTS, or FREAKS OF NATURE. The research simply indicates that in terms of raising healthy children, the more responsible adults in a child's life, the better. And, if those people are the child's parents (gay/straight, male/female), that's the best situation of all.
> 
> Why is this so difficult for you to deal with, Eel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were you on SNL?
Click to expand...


The skit starts out 'ever wonder why?"  And then the couple starts whining.  They stick chopsticks up their nose and wonder why it hurts.

_The Whiners were recurring characters on Saturday Night Live, from 1982 to 1984. Joe Piscopo, playing Doug Whiner, and Robin Duke, playing Wendy Whiner, spoke all their lines in a nasal whining tone, hence, a double meaning of their name. They both claimed to suffer from diverticulitis, and neither would eat anything but macaroni and cheese._
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whiners


----------



## Ravi

Againsheila said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion only sounds false to you, Ravi, because holding on to your particular paradigm is more important than being logical.
> 
> And for the record, I would NEVER advocate that a woman or man stay in an abusive marriage for ANY reason, so that's a strawman.
> 
> It's funny how you will only accept scientific data when it fits your foregone conclusions.  It's kind of like arguing creationism with a fundamentalist.  You're a fundamentalist liberal.  You are only capable of exercising critical thought when ideas fit your internal biases.
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion sounds false to me because they didn't ask about abusive treatment from parents and they didn't give the number of single-parent versus dual parent homes. You may think the answers to those questions are meaningless but they are not.
> 
> I did not say you would advocate anyone stay in an abusive marriage. I said the study might convince someone they should. You are the one employing a strawman, dearie.
> 
> You aren't capable of exercising critical thought at all apparently, as you believe totally anything that is written in a study.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or perhaps it would convince someone who's looking for something better to stick with the marriage she or he has and work it out, instead of destroying their whole family because they have an itch they want scratched.
Click to expand...

That could also be true. I think what bothers me most about this study is it is totally unneeded. Without conducting a study I'll go out on a limb and state the number one gang-joining risk factor for kids that live in high crime areas is kids living in high crime areas with gangs. If these people were serious about helping kids avoid these risks they'd be looking for ways to move these people out of these areas.


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot about that! She had a child with someone she wasn't married to. While being married to and old man.
> 
> Where are the Catz Stats on that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She wasn't a single mom, was she?
> 
> Then again, you could say Jesus was a gang member, what with his 12 disciples following him around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I guess her not being a single mom yet raising a god of a man in spite of poverty, an extramarital affair, relationships with much older men/gods, being underage etc actually proves that single moms suck!!!!
> 
> Yikes!!!!
Click to expand...

It is pretty funny that Christians base their religion on all that.


----------



## Againsheila

Ravi said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion sounds false to me because they didn't ask about abusive treatment from parents and they didn't give the number of single-parent versus dual parent homes. You may think the answers to those questions are meaningless but they are not.
> 
> I did not say you would advocate anyone stay in an abusive marriage. I said the study might convince someone they should. You are the one employing a strawman, dearie.
> 
> You aren't capable of exercising critical thought at all apparently, as you believe totally anything that is written in a study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or perhaps it would convince someone who's looking for something better to stick with the marriage she or he has and work it out, instead of destroying their whole family because they have an itch they want scratched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That could also be true. I think what bothers me most about this study is it is totally unneeded. Without conducting a study I'll go out on a limb and state the number one gang-joining risk factor for kids that live in high crime areas is kids living in high crime areas with gangs. If these people were serious about helping kids avoid these risks they'd be looking for ways to move these people out of these areas.
Click to expand...


Hmm, how do you explain areas that have been invaded by gangs when they weren't there before?  How do you explain gang ridden areas that are taken over by middleclass families when they discover they can purchase homes in that area for cheap and they do...this happened a few years ago in Tacoma and the gangs rapidly left the area as families moved in.  In our area, we used to be pretty much all two parent families and now that we have more single parent families than I care to count, we have a gang problem that we never had before.  

The crime in our city has risen as the single parent rate in our city has risen...do you really think it's just a coincidence?


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> It is pretty funny that Christians base their religion on all that.



It's one of those stories that only works once.

"God got me pregnant."


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbors fit the rule, my friends who adopted one child and are fostering two others fit the rule, my family fits the rule, in fact everyone in my family fits the rule. My son's friend fits the rule, he's really messed up thanks to his divorced and remarried crazy mom and his sister just became a single mom. I also know a woman who was on welfare with 3 children, one of those kids I practically raised, he did fine, the other two have been in major trouble, although I did everything I could for them, including keeping my mouth shut about what a crappy mother she was.
> 
> believe me, I know far more people who fit the rule than those who don't. Then there was single mom I told you about that kept saying, in front of her kids, that she ought to give them up for adoption...there's another example of the rule. Then there is the fact that most of my oldest son's friends are from single parent families and NONE of them drive, even though they are old enough to, and only one of them works, he's an exception to the rest of the people in his single parent household.
> 
> 
> 
> Well now we're back to talk about the "rule" and how it must be true. Which is generally most people's favored way of speaking about the "rule".
> Which says as much about the people talking about it as it does about the people for whom the "rule" was invented.
> 
> Thank dog there are families like Echo's and my cousin's and my two friend's who just keep on being happy families in spite of how others want to portray them as some sort of exception and freaks of nature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, let's get dramatic and make stuff up, that'll win the debate for you, NOT!
Click to expand...

 'm not trying to win the debate, Sheila, I'm pointing out how often I notice that talk about these less than perfect familly situations often focus on the bad that can result from them and rarely on the good, apart some backhanded compliments and an excuse for people like scatz to play the martyr.

It's the same in abortion threads, post after post about how self centered, immoral, irresponsible women who have abortions are. It's a purposefully distorted view and serves to just derail the discussion into a gripe session.


----------



## Againsheila

catzmeow said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is pretty funny that Christians base their religion on all that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's one of those stories that only works once.
> 
> "God got me pregnant."
Click to expand...


Ever hear of a hermaphrodite?  I watched a documentary on Jesus once that speculated that it is possible for a hermaphrodite to get him/herself pregnant.  just a thought.


----------



## Andrew2382

jamie lee curtis is a hermaphrodite


----------



## Sky Dancer

So is Ann Coulter.


----------



## Againsheila

Sky Dancer said:


> So is Ann Coulter.



How do  you guys know that?


----------



## Sky Dancer

It's a joke, sheila.  Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face.  She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.


----------



## Care4all

jamie lee curtis is a great looking female, did you all see her in True Lies, where she is seducing or stripping in front of her husband?  Arnold?

i don't think Ann Coulter comes close...


----------



## Sky Dancer

Jaime Lee is buff.


----------



## catzmeow

Againsheila said:


> Ever hear of a hermaphrodite?  I watched a documentary on Jesus once that speculated that it is possible for a hermaphrodite to get him/herself pregnant.  just a thought.



Thanks, Sheila.  I will now spend the rest of the afternoon visualizing THAT.


----------



## Againsheila

catzmeow said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever hear of a hermaphrodite?  I watched a documentary on Jesus once that speculated that it is possible for a hermaphrodite to get him/herself pregnant.  just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Sheila.  I will now spend the rest of the afternoon visualizing THAT.
Click to expand...


Glad I could help.


----------



## Againsheila

Sky Dancer said:


> It's a joke, sheila.  Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face.  She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.



Oh sure, I'm always the last to get it, well "he who laughs last, laughs best (or doesn't get the joke, whatever)"


----------



## cunclusion

The main thing is this she is telling the truth abstinence is not realistic. Telling someone they shouldnt have it and give them a consequence for doing it is ignorant. They deserve to get all the information how to protect  and why its important to wait (ex for real love). As far as abortion I applaud eveyone coming out with their feeling etc. But here is where I differ if you are Pro Life you should live it fully especially if you are religious the women who want to abort these kids are going through alot. They may not have the support at home they need (emotional, financial) both for them and the kids. People are talking about cutting money for social services when alot of these services help women who keep their kids and try to raise them on a single income.  Now does that make any sense no it does not. But hey as soon as the kid is born you dont care unless the woman is beating up on the child. Volunteer time to help these women with their children and for emotional support and through a church or some other organization for financial support. People who support the main question is the how and why. How did this happen if a woman was raped or molested within  a certain time or the mothers life other than these reasons I see no reason for abortion at all.


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> It's a joke, sheila.  Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face.  She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.



I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.


----------



## Ravi

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a joke, sheila.  Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face.  She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
Click to expand...

Del is a liberal?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Ravi said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a joke, sheila.  Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face.  She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Del is a liberal?
Click to expand...


How did I miss that?


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a joke, sheila. Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face. She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Del is a liberal?
Click to expand...

 You beat me to it!!


----------



## Sky Dancer

Amanda said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a joke, sheila.  Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face.  She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
Click to expand...


You're kidding.   You like Ann Coulter's commentary because it's mean to liberals.  Are liberals supposed to just lay down and be doormats?   We're not.


----------



## Anguille

This may be unliberal and bitchy of me, but I think that Ann Coulter looks like a dead ostrich.


----------



## Sky Dancer

That was funny.  How un-PC of you!  I'd rep you if I could.  Ann Coulter has earned every bit of criticism.  She looks like a reptile to me.


----------



## catzmeow

Amanda said:


> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.



It's okay for a liberal to call a conservative woman a drag queen, or fat, or hideous, or skanky, or any other name that would normally send that liberal into a tizzy.

See, the evilness of conservativism removes the normal protective barrier that overlays protected classes.  Thus, virtually any slur is acceptable when used against a conservative (free of the pangs of conscience).

It's hypocritical, but what did we really expect?

Here's a good example of how it works:



Sky Dancer said:


> Ann Coulter has earned every bit of criticism.  She looks like a reptile to me.



See how the fact that Ann Coulter hasn't played the liberal ballgame opens her up to any sort of attack?  And, not an attack on her WORDS OR IDEAS, either.  An attack on her physical person.

Now, I am not an Ann Coulter fan, I think she's a shrill, hysterical hate-monger.  But I don't feel a need to attack her on the basis of what she LOOKS like.

Another word to define this behavior would be HYPOCRISY.


----------



## Care4all

Sky Dancer said:


> Jaime Lee is buff.



does buff mean muscular, in her case?  or polished?


----------



## Amanda

Sky Dancer said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a joke, sheila.  Coulter has that prominent adams apple, is tall and has a horsey looking face.  She looks more like a man in drag than a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're kidding.   You like Ann Coulter's commentary because it's mean to liberals.  Are liberals supposed to just lay down and be doormats?   We're not.
Click to expand...


Actually I think she's mean and don't really like her at all. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's okay for a liberal to call a conservative woman a drag queen, or fat, or hideous, or skanky, or any other name that would normally send that liberal into a tizzy.
> 
> See, the evilness of conservativism removes the normal protective barrier that overlays protected classes.  Thus, virtually any slur is acceptable when used against a conservative (free of the pangs of conscience).
> 
> It's hypocritical, but what did we really expect?
> 
> Here's a good example of how it works:
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ann Coulter has earned every bit of criticism.  She looks like a reptile to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See how the fact that Ann Coulter hasn't played the liberal ballgame opens her up to any sort of attack?  And, not an attack on her WORDS OR IDEAS, either.  An attack on her physical person.
> 
> Now, I am not an Ann Coulter fan, I think she's a shrill, hysterical hate-monger.  But I don't feel a need to attack her on the basis of what she LOOKS like.
> 
> Another word to define this behavior would be HYPOCRISY.
Click to expand...

She does look a bit like a reptile, so I don't see saying she does is a problem. If she didn't, it would be.


----------



## random3434

I find it funny that all those complaining that only libs call people ugly haven't read this thread. A lot of the right wingers say awful things about Michelle Obama.

People are mean, no matter who they vote for.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/69597-michelle-obama.html


----------



## catzmeow

Echo Zulu said:


> I find it funny that all those complaining that only libs call people ugly haven't read this thread. A lot of the right wingers say awful things about Michelle Obama.
> 
> People are mean, no matter who they vote for.
> 
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/69597-michelle-obama.html



I've always thought she was beautiful with amazing fashion sense.


----------



## Amanda

Echo Zulu said:


> I find it funny that all those complaining that only libs call people ugly haven't read this thread. A lot of the right wingers say awful things about Michelle Obama.
> 
> People are mean, no matter who they vote for.
> 
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/69597-michelle-obama.html



No, I didn't say that only libs did it. I said only libs get a pass when they do.

I don't have any problems with Michelle Obama and if I did it would be with something she said or did, not the way she looks.


----------



## Againsheila

Amanda said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it funny that all those complaining that only libs call people ugly haven't read this thread. A lot of the right wingers say awful things about Michelle Obama.
> 
> People are mean, no matter who they vote for.
> 
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/69597-michelle-obama.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn't say that only libs did it. I said only libs get a pass when they do.
> 
> I don't have any problems with Michelle Obama and if I did it would be with something she said or did, not the way she looks.
Click to expand...


Well, I wouldn't knock her looks, but I do think the coat she wore on the day of the inauguration was rather plain looking.  If it'd been me, I would have trimmed it in fur, or fake fur.  Then again, some people say my taste is all in my mouth.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's okay for a liberal to call a conservative woman a drag queen, or fat, or hideous, or skanky, or any other name that would normally send that liberal into a tizzy.
> 
> See, the evilness of conservativism removes the normal protective barrier that overlays protected classes. Thus, virtually any slur is acceptable when used against a conservative (free of the pangs of conscience).
> 
> It's hypocritical, but what did we really expect?
> 
> Here's a good example of how it works:
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ann Coulter has earned every bit of criticism. She looks like a reptile to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See how the fact that Ann Coulter hasn't played the liberal ballgame opens her up to any sort of attack? And, not an attack on her WORDS OR IDEAS, either. An attack on her physical person.
> 
> Now, I am not an Ann Coulter fan, I think she's a shrill, hysterical hate-monger. But I don't feel a need to attack her on the basis of what she LOOKS like.
> 
> Another word to define this behavior would be HYPOCRISY.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She does look a bit like a reptile, so I don't see saying she does is a problem. If she didn't, it would be.
Click to expand...

 Reptilian does describe her. I couldn't care less if people made fun of Michelle Obama's looks or Obama or anyone else I like. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you get special treatment when you become a public figure.


----------



## Agnapostate

Amanda said:


> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.



But that's the thing. I'm not a liberal, but Ann says something like "attacking a female for her appearance is so vile that it's only possible that a liberal could do it" (verbatim quote) and then goes on to say, "The only thing that Cindy Sheehan demonstrates is which body types shouldn't wear shorts." (verbatim quote)


----------



## Sky Dancer

Care4all said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jaime Lee is buff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> does buff mean muscular, in her case?  or polished?
Click to expand...


It means she is fit and toned.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's okay for a liberal to call a conservative woman a drag queen, or fat, or hideous, or skanky, or any other name that would normally send that liberal into a tizzy.
> 
> See, the evilness of conservativism removes the normal protective barrier that overlays protected classes. Thus, virtually any slur is acceptable when used against a conservative (free of the pangs of conscience).
> 
> It's hypocritical, but what did we really expect?
> 
> Here's a good example of how it works:
> 
> 
> 
> See how the fact that Ann Coulter hasn't played the liberal ballgame opens her up to any sort of attack? And, not an attack on her WORDS OR IDEAS, either. An attack on her physical person.
> 
> Now, I am not an Ann Coulter fan, I think she's a shrill, hysterical hate-monger. But I don't feel a need to attack her on the basis of what she LOOKS like.
> 
> Another word to define this behavior would be HYPOCRISY.
> 
> 
> 
> She does look a bit like a reptile, so I don't see saying she does is a problem. If she didn't, it would be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Reptilian does describe her. I couldn't care less if people made fun of Michelle Obama's looks or Obama or anyone else I like. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you get special treatment when you become a public figure.
Click to expand...


Reptilian describes Ann Coulter's qualities and what comes out of her mouth and heart.    Cold hearted, narrow eyed and minded, slimey ethics,  and dragon breath.  Some of her fans are just like her.  Cult Her.


----------



## Anguille

Againsheila said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it funny that all those complaining that only libs call people ugly haven't read this thread. A lot of the right wingers say awful things about Michelle Obama.
> 
> People are mean, no matter who they vote for.
> 
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/69597-michelle-obama.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn't say that only libs did it. I said only libs get a pass when they do.
> 
> I don't have any problems with Michelle Obama and if I did it would be with something she said or did, not the way she looks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I wouldn't knock her looks, but I do think the coat she wore on the day of the inauguration was rather plain looking. If it'd been me, I would have trimmed it in fur, or fake fur. Then again, some people say my taste is all in my mouth.
Click to expand...

 
Faux fur would have been an elegant touch! I absolutely hated that red and black dress she wore on election night. Otherwise she seems to know how to dress to show off her assets.


----------



## Anguille

Care4all said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jaime Lee is buff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> does buff mean muscular, in her case? or polished?
Click to expand...

 
Isn't that a pantyhose color too? 

Jaime Lee Curtis is adorable.


----------



## Amanda

Agnapostate said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that's the thing. I'm not a liberal, but Ann says something like "attacking a female for her appearance is so vile that it's only possible that a liberal could do it" (verbatim quote) and then goes on to say, "The only thing that Cindy Sheehan demonstrates is which body types shouldn't wear shorts." (verbatim quote)
Click to expand...


What I'm talking about is living up to your ideals. It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental. Ann doesn't pretend to try to live up to Liberal ideals, but that doesn't suddenly excuse Liberals from having to live up to their own standards. If they say that these are good liberal traits they _must_ live up to them of they are hypocrites or at the very least lousy liberals, it doesn't matter what Ann does or doesn't do to provoke or respond. 

As another example, if I preached non-violence in ALL situations, then I must _not_ be violent _ever_ or I am a hypocrite, even if I'm attacked. If your ideals are situational they aren't highly held. I have a hard time respecting a hypocrite.


----------



## AllieBaba

Really? Ask a liberal what they think of Bristol Palin. Mostly they call her a stupid slut. Or ask them what they think of fundamentalist Christians. The nicest thing they call them is stupid. Ask them what they think of people who live outside Manhattan, or what they think of Rush LImbaugh.

Ask Jillie to share her non-judgmental views on Ann Coulter. She can't talk about her without referring to how hideous she is, and how she suspects she's really a man.

Liberals TELL you they are non-judgmental. That's the way they pass their outrageous fascism as normalcy, and how they convince people that a minority should be in charge...even if the majority votes against it.


----------



## Againsheila

Amanda said:


> Agnapostate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that a lot of liberals like to bust on Ann for how she looks like a man in drag. What's up with that? Aren't liberals all about the acceptance? Shouldn't her apparent gender (if you really think she looks like a man in drag) just be "ok", shouldn't it be a non-issue? I'm pretty sure if conservatives were saying the same thing about a liberal commentator the "-ism"s would be flying like crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that's the thing. I'm not a liberal, but Ann says something like "attacking a female for her appearance is so vile that it's only possible that a liberal could do it" (verbatim quote) and then goes on to say, "The only thing that Cindy Sheehan demonstrates is which body types shouldn't wear shorts." (verbatim quote)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What I'm talking about is living up to your ideals. It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental. Ann doesn't pretend to try to live up to Liberal ideals, but that doesn't suddenly excuse Liberals from having to live up to their own standards. If they say that these are good liberal traits they _must_ live up to them of they are hypocrites or at the very least lousy liberals, it doesn't matter what Ann does or doesn't do to provoke or respond.
> 
> As another example, if I preached non-violence in ALL situations, then I must _not_ be violent _ever_ or I am a hypocrite, even if I'm attacked. If your ideals are situational they aren't highly held. I have a hard time respecting a hypocrite.
Click to expand...



Hey, I'm a pacifist and I'll clobber anyone that says I'm not!


----------



## AllieBaba

Ask a lib what they think of the woman who CHOSE to have 8 babies at once, possible, t hank you, to liberal policies which have allowed embryonic production and experimentation, and the miracle of welfare. All things that liberals have fought tooth and nail for, under the pretense that it's not immoral, and every woman, no matter how poor and stupid, has the choice to do what she wants with her babies.


----------



## Anguille

Amanda said:


> What I'm talking about is living up to your ideals. It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental. Ann doesn't pretend to try to live up to Liberal ideals, but that doesn't suddenly excuse Liberals from having to live up to their own standards. If they say that these are good liberal traits they _must_ live up to them of they are hypocrites or at the very least lousy liberals, it doesn't matter what Ann does or doesn't do to provoke or respond.
> 
> As another example, if I preached non-violence in ALL situations, then I must _not_ be violent _ever_ or I am a hypocrite, even if I'm attacked. If your ideals are situational they aren't highly held. I have a hard time respecting a hypocrite.


 
Do you know anyone who is truly non judgemental? Including yourself? 
I don't know anyone that saintly.
I get called a lib all the time, yet I have never identified myself as such. I think being called a lib is passing judgement on me. 
That's my judgement on the "Anguille is a lib" robots.


----------



## AllieBaba

THat's just a mistaken assumption. Not a judgment.

A judgment would be to say you're a bad person because of the views you hold.

WHich may or may not be accurate, but it's still a judgment.


----------



## Anguille

AllieBaba said:


> THat's just a mistaken assumption. Not a judgment.
> 
> A judgment would be to say you're a bad person because of the views you hold.
> 
> WHich may or may not be accurate, but it's still a judgment.


 First time in weeks you've actually made an accurate statement.


----------



## Amanda

Anguille said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'm talking about is living up to your ideals. It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental. Ann doesn't pretend to try to live up to Liberal ideals, but that doesn't suddenly excuse Liberals from having to live up to their own standards. If they say that these are good liberal traits they _must_ live up to them of they are hypocrites or at the very least lousy liberals, it doesn't matter what Ann does or doesn't do to provoke or respond.
> 
> As another example, if I preached non-violence in ALL situations, then I must _not_ be violent _ever_ or I am a hypocrite, even if I'm attacked. If your ideals are situational they aren't highly held. I have a hard time respecting a hypocrite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know anyone who is truly non judgemental? Including yourself?
> I don't know anyone that saintly.
> I get called a lib all the time, yet I have never identified myself as such. I think being called a lib is passing judgement on me.
> That's my judgement on the "Anguille is a lib" robots.
Click to expand...


That's the thing Ang, I'm not non-judgmental but I don't go around preaching it, thus: I am not a hypocrite. If I went around preaching that you should not steal and then I was a thief I WOULD be a hypocrite.

What you identify as or what people call you wasn't part of what I was talking about. I was talking about Liberals, if you don't think that's you then I guess I wasn't talking about you.


----------



## Chris

AllieBaba said:


> Ask a lib what they think of the woman who CHOSE to have 8 babies at once, possible, t hank you, to liberal policies which have allowed embryonic production and experimentation, and the miracle of welfare. All things that liberals have fought tooth and nail for, under the pretense that it's not immoral, and every woman, no matter how poor and stupid, has the choice to do what she wants with her babies.



You have never answered my question.

What should be done with all the left over frozen embryos?


----------



## AllieBaba

Actually, I did tell you. They shouldn't be frozen in the first place. I'm not going to enter into an argument with what the left should do with the mess they made. No matter what you do with them, it's wrong.


----------



## Chris

AllieBaba said:


> Actually, I did tell you. They shouldn't be frozen in the first place. I'm not going to enter into an argument with what the left should do with the mess they made. No matter what you do with them, it's wrong.



But what should be done with them?


----------



## AllieBaba

Not a thing.


----------



## Anguille

So defrosting is okay?


----------



## Ravi

Amanda said:


> It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental.


Where did you get that idea? That is a Christian ideal.


----------



## KittenKoder

Ravi said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get that idea? That is a Christian ideal.
Click to expand...


Even though so few follow it.


----------



## Care4all

Ravi said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get that idea? That is a Christian ideal.
Click to expand...




yes, yes it is....


----------



## dilloduck

KittenKoder said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a Liberal ideal (at least as I understand it) to be accepting and non-judgmental.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get that idea? That is a Christian ideal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even though so few follow it.
Click to expand...


true--liberals AND Christians have a hard time hitting the mark. It's not a simple concept to put into action.


----------



## KittenKoder

dilloduck said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get that idea? That is a Christian ideal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even though so few follow it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> true--liberals AND Christians have a hard time hitting the mark. It's not a simple concept to put into action.
Click to expand...


Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.


----------



## dilloduck

KittenKoder said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though so few follow it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> true--liberals AND Christians have a hard time hitting the mark. It's not a simple concept to put into action.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.
Click to expand...


Horse shit.


----------



## del

dilloduck said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> true--liberals AND Christians have a hard time hitting the mark. It's not a simple concept to put into action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Horse shit.
Click to expand...


how judgmental of you.


----------



## dilloduck

del said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horse shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how judgmental of you.
Click to expand...


ok--neutral shit.


----------



## KittenKoder

dilloduck said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> true--liberals AND Christians have a hard time hitting the mark. It's not a simple concept to put into action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Horse shit.
Click to expand...


... what Del said.


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> true--liberals AND Christians have a hard time hitting the mark. It's not a simple concept to put into action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Horse shit.
Click to expand...

 
Elephant piss!!!

Libs assess first, then pass judgement. Cons pass judgement first, then look for justifications. Presumed innocence versus presumed guilt. That's the nature of lib versus con.


----------



## dilloduck

KittenKoder said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though so few follow it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> true--liberals AND Christians have a hard time hitting the mark. It's not a simple concept to put into action.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.
Click to expand...


but of course you understand that this in itself is a judgement ?


----------



## del

KittenKoder said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay ... the one aspect I like about liberals is they don't say nor pretend not to judge, they judge what is right and wrong just as much as christians, but at least they don't hide it and do it for better reasons. Cons judge everyone else as evil no matter what they do, while liberals judge people based on their attitude toward others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horse shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ... what Del said.
Click to expand...


i wasn't disagreeing with him. your willingness to engage in the behavior you decry has a word for it. it starts with h.


----------



## Anguille

del said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Horse shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... what Del said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i wasn't disagreeing with him. your willingness to engage in the behavior you decry has a word for it. it starts with h.
Click to expand...

 
.....starts with hippy.


----------



## dilloduck

Anguille said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... what Del said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i wasn't disagreeing with him. your willingness to engage in the behavior you decry has a word for it. it starts with h.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> .....starts with hippy.
Click to expand...


I judged you to be a twit.


----------



## Sky Dancer

I'm a liberal.  Ask me what I think of Bristol Palin, Allie.


----------



## Anguille

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> i wasn't disagreeing with him. your willingness to engage in the behavior you decry has a word for it. it starts with h.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .....starts with hippy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I judged you to be a twit.
Click to expand...

 
fixed now


----------



## KittenKoder

Just love how people accuse us who openly admit to being judgmental of being hypocrites for calling others judgmental when they wrongly deny it ... that's kinda funny really. Ange, you said it perfectly though.


----------



## del

KittenKoder said:


> Just love how people accuse us who openly admit to being judgmental of being hypocrites for calling others judgmental when they wrongly deny it ... that's kinda funny really. Ange, you said it perfectly though.



i must have missed the denial part. all i caught was the blanket accusation of one side and the blanket canonization of the other; if you want to call that something other than hypocrisy on your part, be my guest.


----------



## dilloduck

KittenKoder said:


> Just love how people accuse us who openly admit to being judgmental of being hypocrites for calling others judgmental when they wrongly deny it ... that's kinda funny really. Ange, you said it perfectly though.



Look--everyone is a hypocrite to a certain extent. The game of " catching the hypocrite in action " has about played out in my book. I guess the next step is seeing who the BIGGER hypocrite is ? blah


----------



## Sky Dancer

Notice how the cons aren't really interested in our actual views of Bristol Palin.  They'd rather make it up and criticise what they've created.


----------



## del

dilloduck said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just love how people accuse us who openly admit to being judgmental of being hypocrites for calling others judgmental when they wrongly deny it ... that's kinda funny really. Ange, you said it perfectly though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look--everyone is a hypocrite to a certain extent. The game of " catching the hypocrite in action " has about played out in my book. I guess the next step is seeing who the BIGGER hypocrite is ? blah
Click to expand...


pick me! pick me!


----------



## Sky Dancer

Let'see.  Let's not actually discuss our actual honest responses to Bristol Palin, lets just lib and con bash.  It kind of goes like this:

"You're a liberal.  Liberals think such and such.  Therefore you think such and such."  (Regardless of whatever the poster thinks).

"You're a right wing nut.  Wing nuts say this.....  Therefore you say and think this."


----------



## KittenKoder

del said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just love how people accuse us who openly admit to being judgmental of being hypocrites for calling others judgmental when they wrongly deny it ... that's kinda funny really. Ange, you said it perfectly though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look--everyone is a hypocrite to a certain extent. The game of " catching the hypocrite in action " has about played out in my book. I guess the next step is seeing who the BIGGER hypocrite is ? blah
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pick me! pick me!
Click to expand...


You got my vote already.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> Let'see.  Let's not actually discuss our actual honest responses to Bristol Palin, lets just lib and con bash.



yeah, because 600+ posts in there's a lot left to say about an 18 yo's opinion on abstinence. spare me.


----------



## del

KittenKoder said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look--everyone is a hypocrite to a certain extent. The game of " catching the hypocrite in action " has about played out in my book. I guess the next step is seeing who the BIGGER hypocrite is ? blah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pick me! pick me!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You got my vote already.
Click to expand...


awesome, i can feel the momentum building!


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let'see.  Let's not actually discuss our actual honest responses to Bristol Palin, lets just lib and con bash.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, because 600+ posts in there's a lot left to say about an 18 yo's opinion on abstinence. spare me.
Click to expand...


Fine.  I'll keep my opinion about Bristol Palin's situation to myself.  Allie Baba would rather tell me what my opinion is anyway--since I'm a liberal after all.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let'see.  Let's not actually discuss our actual honest responses to Bristol Palin, lets just lib and con bash.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, because 600+ posts in there's a lot left to say about an 18 yo's opinion on abstinence. spare me.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fine.  I'll keep my opinion about Bristol Palin's situation to myself.  Allie Baba would rather tell me what my opinion is anyway--since I'm a liberal after all.
Click to expand...


fine by me


----------



## Sky Dancer

Let's just keep this board to one view only, yours.


----------



## KittenKoder

Sky does have a point with that last post. It seems that the cons have taken to stating (rather inaccurately) what libs and others are thinking or what our opinions are instead of actually stating their own ... that's kinda odd to.


----------



## Sky Dancer

KittenKoder said:


> Sky does have a point with that last post. It seems that the cons have taken to stating (rather inaccurately) what libs and others are thinking or what our opinions are instead of actually stating their own ... that's kinda odd to.



Thanks Kitten.  I am in the room BTW.

del just proved it.  He'd rather let Babble talk for liberals, then bother posting a response to an individuals actual view.


----------



## Anguille

Babble is here for shits and giggles. Does anyone take her seriously? I think she is in a clown class by herself.


----------



## KittenKoder

Anguille said:


> Babble is here for shits and giggles. Does anyone take her seriously? I think she is in a clown class by herself.



The Krusty Klown Klass?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Point is, that posters like Babble, (yes she is in a class by herself) * aren't *interested in our actual views.  They'd rather stay with their preconcieved notions, instead.

It's as if they'd rather do some gestalt therapy version of debate:

"Place an imaginary liberal in this chair.

Ask the imaginary liberal a question.

Switch chairs and answer the question yourself."

No wonder Del doesn't want to hear our actual views.  He'd rather enjoy imaginary friends.


----------



## Anguille

Sky Dancer said:


> Point is, that posters like Babble, (yes she is in a class by herself) *aren't *interested in our actual views. They'd rather stay with their preconcieved notions, instead.
> 
> It's as if they'd rather do some gestalt therapy version of debate:
> 
> "Place an imaginary liberal in this chair.
> 
> Ask the imaginary liberal a question.
> 
> Switch chairs and answer the question yourself."
> 
> No wonder Del doesn't want to hear our actual views. He'd rather enjoy imaginary friends.


 
There's plenty here on both sides like that, that come to release hot air. I do it myself too sometimes. 

 Some do it all the time and that's why the board get so hot and stuffy.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Anguille said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Point is, that posters like Babble, (yes she is in a class by herself) *aren't *interested in our actual views. They'd rather stay with their preconcieved notions, instead.
> 
> It's as if they'd rather do some gestalt therapy version of debate:
> 
> "Place an imaginary liberal in this chair.
> 
> Ask the imaginary liberal a question.
> 
> Switch chairs and answer the question yourself."
> 
> No wonder Del doesn't want to hear our actual views. He'd rather enjoy imaginary friends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's plenty here on both sides like that, that come to release hot air. I do it myself too sometimes.
> 
> Some do it all the time and that's why the board get so hot and stuffy.
Click to expand...


That's right.  We're all here for different reasons.  I know why I'm here and what I get out of participating.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sky does have a point with that last post. It seems that the cons have taken to stating (rather inaccurately) what libs and others are thinking or what our opinions are instead of actually stating their own ... that's kinda odd to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Kitten.  I am in the room BTW.
> 
> del just proved it.  He'd rather let Babble talk for liberals, then bother posting a response to an individuals actual view.
Click to expand...


it was your idea, genius; i just said it was fine by me. 

do you ever stop feeding your victimhood or are you incapable of it, now?


----------



## Anguille

Someone open a window!!!!


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> Let's just keep this board to one view only, yours.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sky does have a point with that last post. It seems that the cons have taken to stating (rather inaccurately) what libs and others are thinking or what our opinions are instead of actually stating their own ... that's kinda odd to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Kitten.  I am in the room BTW.
> 
> del just proved it.  He'd rather let Babble talk for liberals, then bother posting a response to an individuals actual view.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it was your idea, genius; i just said it was fine by me.
> 
> do you ever stop feeding your victimhood or are you incapable of it, now?
Click to expand...


Do you ever let go of a grudge?  

You're acting like a victim right now.  I made a point, Kitten Koder got it, you did not.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Kitten.  I am in the room BTW.
> 
> del just proved it.  He'd rather let Babble talk for liberals, then bother posting a response to an individuals actual view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it was your idea, genius; i just said it was fine by me.
> 
> do you ever stop feeding your victimhood or are you incapable of it, now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you ever let go of a grudge?  You're acting like a victim right now.
Click to expand...


it's hard to let go of something i don't have. 

keep trying, something'll stick to the wall eventually.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Back to the topic.

I wouldn't want to be Sarah Palin's daughter, and have my private choices dragged out in front of the media, because my mother chooses to have a career in politics.

Nonetheless, now that it has been all over the media, I applaud this young woman for coming forward and being her own person.  It's possible that Bristol Palin is nothing like me, and that the fame hasn't hurt her a bit, especially if she intends to follow in mom's footsteps as a politician.


----------



## catzmeow

This thread jumped the shark a long time ago.  I found Amanda's question about when it is okay to criticize someone the way that a few posters criticized Ann Coulter to be perceptive and interesting.

I'm not surprised that Anguille and Sky would prefer not to discuss it since it throws their hypocrisy into sharp relief.


----------



## del

KittenKoder said:


> Sky does have a point with that last post. It seems that the cons have taken to stating (rather inaccurately) what libs and others are thinking or what our opinions are instead of actually stating their own ... that's kinda odd to.



no odder than when the libs do it to the cons, nor is it any more inteligent.

that's life.


----------



## Care4all

Sky Dancer said:


> Back to the topic.
> 
> I wouldn't want to be Sarah Palin's daughter, and have my private choices dragged out in front of the media, because my mother chooses to have a career in politics.
> 
> Nonetheless, now that it has been all over the media, I applaud this young woman for coming forward and being her own person.  It's possible that Bristol Palin is nothing like me, and that the fame hasn't hurt her a bit, especially if she intends to follow in mom's footsteps as a politician.



i know many will not acknowledge this but some credit to her rearing should be given to her mother and father....she actually seems to be a pretty level headed, independent thinking young lady now....minus the hormone driven mistake.

care


----------



## Sky Dancer

Care4all said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to the topic.
> 
> I wouldn't want to be Sarah Palin's daughter, and have my private choices dragged out in front of the media, because my mother chooses to have a career in politics.
> 
> Nonetheless, now that it has been all over the media, I applaud this young woman for coming forward and being her own person.  It's possible that Bristol Palin is nothing like me, and that the fame hasn't hurt her a bit, especially if she intends to follow in mom's footsteps as a politician.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i know many will not acknowledge this but some credit to her rearing should be given to her mother and father....she actually seems to be a pretty level headed, independent thinking young lady now....minus the hormone driven mistake.
> 
> care
Click to expand...


I agree.  

BTW.  You have my vote for the kindest, most positive poster on the board.


----------



## Care4all

Sky Dancer said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to the topic.
> 
> I wouldn't want to be Sarah Palin's daughter, and have my private choices dragged out in front of the media, because my mother chooses to have a career in politics.
> 
> Nonetheless, now that it has been all over the media, I applaud this young woman for coming forward and being her own person.  It's possible that Bristol Palin is nothing like me, and that the fame hasn't hurt her a bit, especially if she intends to follow in mom's footsteps as a politician.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i know many will not acknowledge this but some credit to her rearing should be given to her mother and father....she actually seems to be a pretty level headed, independent thinking young lady now....minus the hormone driven mistake.
> 
> care
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> BTW.  You have my vote for the kindest, most positive poster on the board.
Click to expand...


thank you sky dancer!

Please don't think i am minus the ''bitch'' gene though....i just choose to hold it for the unexpected, left hook.... 

and only if really needed....which truly is not often....


----------



## Sky Dancer

Care4all said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> i know many will not acknowledge this but some credit to her rearing should be given to her mother and father....she actually seems to be a pretty level headed, independent thinking young lady now....minus the hormone driven mistake.
> 
> care
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> BTW.  You have my vote for the kindest, most positive poster on the board.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> thank you sky dancer!
> 
> Please don't think i am minus the ''bitch'' gene though....i just choose to hold it for the unexpected, left hook....
> 
> and only if really needed....which truly is not often....
Click to expand...


That's the way to make it have the most impact.    When it comes from someone like you, I'm sure it really stings.


----------



## bgn

Abstinence is realistic; it's just not desirable. At any rate, I could tell when I saw her that she had a bad case of the sluts.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Bristol Palin has a 'bad case of the sluts'?


----------



## KittenKoder

BGN the troll ...

I'd say "nevermind that troll behind the curtain" but ... well ... BGN isn't worth a good joke.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Aw c'mon Kitten Koder.  I know you've got a good joke in you.


----------



## bgn

KittenKoder said:


> BGN the troll ...
> 
> I'd say "nevermind that troll behind the curtain" but ... well ... BGN isn't worth a good joke.



I'm not sure what's lamer: your Shift + F2 response to accuse someone new who made an off-the-cuff remark amount Sarah Palin's daughter as being a troll, or your thinly veiled bitchy comment about me not being worth the joke.


----------



## KittenKoder

bgn said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> BGN the troll ...
> 
> I'd say "nevermind that troll behind the curtain" but ... well ... BGN isn't worth a good joke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what's lamer: your Shift + F2 response to accuse someone new who made an off-the-cuff remark amount Sarah Palin's daughter as being a troll, or your thinly veiled bitchy comment about me not being worth the joke.
Click to expand...


LOL ... the funny part about this .... it's so funny. I love you assumers.

Here's a clue: I don't care about Palins family one bit.


----------

