# Oh-Oh, For Obamacare



## Meister (Jun 21, 2011)

Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it. 

*AP: Glitch in Obamacare would place couples earning up to $64,000 in Medicaid*

WASHINGTON &#8212; President Barack Obama's health care law would let several million middle-class people get nearly free insurance meant for the poor, a twist government number crunchers say they discovered only after the complex bill was signed.
The change would affect early retirees: A married couple could have an annual income of about $64,000 and still get Medicaid, said officials who make long-range cost estimates for the Health and Human Services department.

*"The fact that this is being discovered now tells you, what else is baked into this law?" *said Leavitt, who served as Health and Human Services secretary under President George H.W. Bush. "It clearly begins to reveal that the nature of the law was to put more and more people under eligibility for government insurance."
That $64,000 would put them at about four times the federal poverty level, which for a two-person household is $14,710 this year. The Medicaid expansion in the health care law was supposed to benefit childless adults with incomes up to 133 percent of the poverty level. A fudge factor built into the law bumps that up to 138 percent.


Read more: APNewsBreak: A twist in Obama's health care law | AP Business News - The News Tribune


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## Spoonman (Jun 21, 2011)

clearly thought out it wasn't.  i'm sure we are bound to find a ton of little surprises in this deal


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## syrenn (Jun 21, 2011)

Can i laugh now? 


You mean its like a back of a refrigerator? All the wires and stuff...all we needed to know was that the light comes on?


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## Dr.House (Jun 21, 2011)

Isn't the first loophole - won't be the last...

The perils of ramming something through without knowing what's in it...


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## Sarah G (Jun 21, 2011)

Glitch in the software?


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## Oddball (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm confused here.

Is this supposed to be one of those "good things" that SanFran Nan told us was in the bill, which we needed to pass in order to find out about them?


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## daveman (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr.House said:


> Isn't the first loophole - won't be the last...
> 
> The perils of ramming something through without knowing what's in it...


Ready, fire, aim!


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## Spoonman (Jun 21, 2011)

i wish my employers would pay me with a 138% fudge factor


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## elvis (Jun 21, 2011)

Oddball said:


> I'm confused here.
> 
> Is this supposed to be one of those "good things" that SanFran Nan told us was in the bill, which we needed to pass in order to find out about them?



yes.


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## Meister (Jun 21, 2011)

Now...if I can just get obamacare to pay my mortgage and gas, I'll be set.


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## Wiseacre (Jun 21, 2011)

Meister said:


> Now...if I can just get obamacare to pay my mortgage and gas, I'll be set.




And eats.    Just wondering, did this message board get any stimulus money?      Didn't ask I bet.    Heck, we got enough lefties around here, tell 'em we're unionized and it's a piece of cake.


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## Greenbeard (Jun 21, 2011)

Meister said:


> *"The fact that this is being discovered now tells you, what else is baked into this law?" *said Leavitt, who served as Health and Human Services secretary under President George H.W. Bush.



...this isn't being discovered now, nor is it "glitch." This is part of the House's revisions to the Senate bill in March 2010. The House bill extended Medicaid eligibility up to 150% of the poverty line, the Senate bill extended it only to 133%. The compromise was the Senate bill's 133% coupled with a 5% income disregard, effectively putting the eligibility threshold at 138%.

If you're still in the dark about some of these basic facts about the law, there are some very digestible bite-size summaries available out there (e.g. KFF's Medicaid and CHIP provisions in the new health reform law notes the 5 percent income disregard on page 1). The simplified way income is to be counted also isn't a revelation. These threads would be much more interesting if they were aimed at highlighting areas for improvement in the policy, not anger that you just became aware of what it is.


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## Oddball (Jun 21, 2011)

Ahhh...So it's all a part of the plan.

I'm sooooo unrelieved.


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## Meister (Jun 21, 2011)

Greenbeard said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > *"The fact that this is being discovered now tells you, what else is baked into this law?" *said Leavitt, who served as Health and Human Services secretary under President George H.W. Bush.
> ...


I have no doubt that it's in there, Greenbeard.  I find it discouraging that it didn't get front page news sooner.


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## Flopper (Jun 21, 2011)

When they raise the age for S.S. early retirement I doubt it's going to make that much difference.


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## Spoonman (Jun 21, 2011)

Greenbeard said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > *"The fact that this is being discovered now tells you, what else is baked into this law?" *said Leavitt, who served as Health and Human Services secretary under President George H.W. Bush.
> ...


so it wasn't an oversite, it was a fuck up


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## Bfgrn (Jun 21, 2011)

Meister said:


> Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> 
> *AP: Glitch in Obamacare would place couples earning up to $64,000 in Medicaid*
> 
> ...



There has never been a major piece of legislation that hasn't required modifications. The Affordable Healthcare Act is no different...


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## Spoonman (Jun 21, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> Meister said:
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> > Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> ...



lol at affordable


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## boedicca (Jun 21, 2011)

Spoonman said:


> clearly thought out it wasn't.  i'm sure we are bound to find a ton of little surprises in this deal





It's not a bug, it's a feature.

These "glitches" accelerate the momentum towards single payer.


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

Meister said:


> Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> 
> *AP: Glitch in Obamacare would place couples earning up to $64,000 in Medicaid*
> 
> ...



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Meister again.


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> Meister said:
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> > Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> ...





yea I heard that back in 1990, when medicare had gone to 92 BILLION on a projection in 1964 when the bill was passed of ...wait for it...........

I said, wait for it!!!


12 billion...

yup, I am sure its " no  different"


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

and IF I remember correctly SCHIP, underwent significant mission creep, where in kids in households earning  $82600 (400 percent of the federal poverty level) where covered. 

here? they just built in the creep form the git go.


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## Oddball (Jun 21, 2011)

Trajan said:


> Bfgrn said:
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Liberoidals = The Jeff Spicoli of politics.

"We can fix that...My dad is a teevee repair man, he has the ultimate set of tools"


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## Oddball (Jun 21, 2011)

Trajan said:


> and IF I remember correctly SCHIP, underwent significant mission creep, where in kids in households earning  $82600 (400 percent of the federal poverty level) where covered.
> 
> here? they just built in the creep form the git go.


Why do you hate the chiiilllldrrreeeennn?


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

Greenbeard said:


> Meister said:
> 
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> > *"The fact that this is being discovered now tells you, what else is baked into this law?" *said Leavitt, who served as Health and Human Services secretary under President George H.W. Bush.
> ...



 the AP is just being alarmist?

from the AP article-

Medicare chief actuary Richard Foster says the situation keeps him up at night.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t generally comment on the pros or cons of policy, but that just doesn&#8217;t make sense,&#8221; Foster said during a question-and-answer session at a recent professional society meeting.

&#8220;This is a situation that got no attention at all,&#8221; added Foster. &#8220;And even now, as I raise the issue with various policymakers, people are not rushing to say &#8230; we need to do something about this.&#8221;



snip the pay off pitch;

The actuary's office said the early retirees eligible for Medicaid would be on top of an estimated 16 million to 20 million new people that Obama's law already brings into the program, by opening it to childless adults with incomes near the poverty level.

It's unclear how much it would cost to cover the retirees. _*Federal taxpayers will cover the entire initial cost of the expansion.*_

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110621...DeW5faGVhZGxpbmVfbGlzdARzbGsDYXBuZXdzYnJlYWth


you bet they will......


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

Oddball said:


> Trajan said:
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AND he slept at a holiday inn


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

Oddball said:


> Trajan said:
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> > and IF I remember correctly SCHIP, underwent significant mission creep, where in kids in households earning  $82600 (400 percent of the federal poverty level) where covered.
> ...



its;  weedle chillens.....

and I hate amerika too


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## daveman (Jun 21, 2011)

Oddball said:


> Ahhh...So it's all a part of the plan.
> 
> I'm sooooo unrelieved.



It's so comforting that the incompetence is on purpose.


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

anyone here ever see any of the matt helm films? 


I remember one that reminds me of this whole magilla......where in Victor Buono is a mr evil type guy, he gonna launch a rocket and take out DC, so matt sneaks into his complex blows the fucker all to hell, meanwhile in the background,  you keep hearing this controlled,  calm, soothing voice even as the roof caves in;

Its 20 minutes to launch and everything is still....A-OK....

Its 10 minutes to launch and everything is still....A-OK....

Its....

kinda like Obamacare....Its 2 years to launch and everything is still....A-OK...


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## saveliberty (Jun 21, 2011)

Pelosi update:  We have to pass it know what's in it, probably several years from now really.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 21, 2011)

As usual, the right wing Pharisees never include one penny of human capital in any of their equations. Their solutions always require some group of human beings to evaporate.

In 1965, the elderly were the group most likely to be living in poverty--nearly one in three were poor. Today, the poverty rate for the elderly is similar to that of the age group 18-64--about 1 in 10 are poor.

About one-half of America's seniors did not have hospital insurance prior to Medicare. By contrast, 75 percent of adults under age 65 had hospital insurance, primarily through their employer. For the uninsured, needing hospital services could mean going without health care or turning to family, friends, and/or charity to cover medical bills. More than one in four elderly were estimated to go without medical care due to cost concerns.

Medicare, along with other programs, notably Social Security, and a strong economy, have greatly improved the ability of the elderly and the disabled to live without these worries. Medicare covers nearly all of the elderly (about 97 percent), making them the population group most likely to have health insurance coverage.

Luke 16:13-15 

13 No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon (money).

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 

15 He said to them, You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of man, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valuable in the eyes of man is detestable in Gods sight. 



You shall rise up before the gray-headed and honor the aged, and you shall revere your God; I am the Lord.
Leviticus 19:32


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## Dot Com (Jun 21, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> As usual, the right wing Pharisees never include one penny of human capital in any of their equations. Their solutions always require some group of human beings to evaporate.
> 
> In 1965, the elderly were the group most likely to be living in poverty--nearly one in three were poor. Today, the poverty rate for the elderly is similar to that of the age group 18-64--about 1 in 10 are poor.
> 
> ...



Yeah, the rightwing-nuts on USMB, of which they are legion, seem to have selective memories. The increase in HC costs was growing at multiples of the rate of inflation but as far as they recall, everything was peachy  History for them began in 2008


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## Trajan (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> As usual, the right wing Pharisees never include one penny of human capital in any of their equations. Their solutions always require some group of human beings to evaporate.
> 
> In 1965, the elderly were the group most likely to be living in poverty--nearly one in three were poor. Today, the poverty rate for the elderly is similar to that of the age group 18-64--about 1 in 10 are poor.
> 
> ...





Oh herrrree we go, now hes playing the;  'let me point out how much a better person I am than you because I love old sick people, AND  my argument just fell apart' card.....dude, get a life, buy one if you have too....


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## Trajan (Jun 22, 2011)

Dot Com said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > As usual, the right wing Pharisees never include one penny of human capital in any of their equations. Their solutions always require some group of human beings to evaporate.
> ...



tissue? shawl?


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Meister said:


> Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> 
> *AP: Glitch in Obamacare would place couples earning up to $64,000 in Medicaid*
> 
> ...



tsk tsk tsk  I so hate that word "free" libturds are morons.


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## Oddball (Jun 22, 2011)

Dot Bomb said:
			
		

>


]
Of course, the obvious question flies right over your pointy little head....

If the "reforms" work, how come they have to be re-re-reformed?


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Spoonman said:


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Hey! "Free" is affordable. You moranous!


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## Trajan (Jun 22, 2011)

Oddball said:


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NNNOOOOO Yooouuuuuuu dooooh....you told him.


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## Meister (Jun 22, 2011)

Any person who have given this bill any thought at all would think that a mega *2500* page bill would have it right the first time. WTF?


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

Trajan said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
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> > As usual, the right wing Pharisees never include one penny of human capital in any of their equations. Their solutions always require some group of human beings to evaporate.
> ...



The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.


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## saveliberty (Jun 22, 2011)

Do you guys have a calendar listing moral high ground days?  Weiner is in the grinder and its, moral relativism, now you have the superior position?  I have a basic problem with stealing to provide for anyone.  Now you want to burden a system to the point of failure, then we all have healthcare problems.  What genius on your side thought that was a good idea?


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

saveliberty said:


> Do you guys have a calendar listing moral high ground days?  Weiner is in the grinder and its, moral relativism, now you have the superior position?  I have a basic problem with stealing to provide for anyone.  Now you want to burden a system to the point of failure, then we all have healthcare problems.  What genius on your side thought that was a good idea?



Oh, now I see your problem...you are stupid.

Medicare is not stealing. People pay into it their whole working life. Medicare is a social insurance program. Also, the Medicare program funds residency training programs for the vast majority of physicians in the United States.

The Medicare we have today is a program President John F. Kennedy proposed. It was passed after his assassination.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpMNdYhRq90]YouTube - &#x202a;Kennedy Medicare&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]

Discussion about a national health insurance system for Americans goes all the way back to the days of President Teddy Roosevelt, whose platform included health insurance when he ran for president in 1912.

But the idea for a national health plan didn't gain steam until it was pushed by U.S. President Harry S. Truman. On November 19, 1945, seven months into his presidency, Truman sent a message to Congress, calling for creation of a national health insurance fund, open to all Americans.

The plan Truman envisioned would provide health coverage to individuals, paying for such typical expenses as doctor visits, hospital visits, laboratory services, dental care and nursing services. Although Truman fought to get a bill passed during his term, he was unsuccessful and it was another 20 years before Medicare would become a reality.

President John F. Kennedy made his own unsuccessful push for a national health care program for seniors after a national study showed that 56 percent of Americans over the age of 65 were not covered by health insurance. But it wasn't until 1965  after legislation was signed by President Lyndon B Johnson  that Americans started receiving Medicare health coverage.

More


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 22, 2011)

Meister said:


> Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> 
> *AP: Glitch in Obamacare would place couples earning up to $64,000 in Medicaid*
> 
> ...



There is no mistake here...

...it's called redistribution of the wealth.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 22, 2011)

Sweet!

Maybe now I can get some payback for the ass fucking I took under St Reagan's 1986 Income Tax Reform Act.


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## Wiseacre (Jun 22, 2011)

The snippet below is from FoxNews.    I should point out there are other surveys that come in with different results, but this one surveyed 1300 employers.   Of interest is the fact that the CBO used a 7% figure in their calculations, meaning their figure for the employers who would opt out of ObamaCare is only 7%.   Every percentage point above that costs US taxpayers more money, perhaps as much as an additional trillion dollars a year.




"  Thirty percent of employers will definitely or probably stop offering health benefits to their employees once the main provisions of President Obama's federal health care law go into effect in 2014, a new survey finds.

The research published in the McKinsey Quarterly found that the number rises to 50 percent among employers who are highly aware of the health care law.   "


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## Spoonman (Jun 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> Spoonman said:
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> > clearly thought out it wasn't.  i'm sure we are bound to find a ton of little surprises in this deal
> ...



it's kind of like planned obsolescence


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Do you guys have a calendar listing moral high ground days?  Weiner is in the grinder and its, moral relativism, now you have the superior position?  I have a basic problem with stealing to provide for anyone.  Now you want to burden a system to the point of failure, then we all have healthcare problems.  What genius on your side thought that was a good idea?
> ...



Correctomundo asshole and obie wan nutz in his head STOLE 960 Billion dollars from MEDICARE to fund his stupid health care plan and he doesn't even the fuck know what's in it. Next brilliant observation?


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## saveliberty (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> Oh, now I see your problem...you are stupid.
> 
> Medicare is not stealing. People pay into it their whole working life. Medicare is a social insurance program. Also, the Medicare program funds residency training programs for the vast majority of physicians in the United States.



No, its socialized medicine that is supported by working Americans.  You can receive it without working a day in your life.  True story...


stupid.  Because that seems to matter to you.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

saveliberty said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > Oh, now I see your problem...you are stupid.
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I suppose it could happen. And millions pay in and never reach 65 years old. Yes it is socialized medicine, it is what civilized societies do. Can you imagine the plight of elderly today without Medicare?


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> saveliberty said:
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Another correction asshole. It's what 50% of civilizied Americans do. the other 50% don't.. Thanks for listening.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

WillowTree said:


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Hey Willow, is there anything human about you? You are nothing but acidic and contemptuous...it is all of what you are, how sad.


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## saveliberty (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


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Yes I can.  They would have had the opportunity to own their own health insurance plan to cover their needs as they saw fit.  You presume it would have turned out poorly, but we don't know that for a fact.  Yank it out now, sure we have major issues.


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


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 I pay my taxes. more than I can say for you.. I'm very fucking civillized..


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

WillowTree said:


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I pay my taxes too willow. You are not civilized. You are completely brainwashed. Why don't you turn off all the right wing talking heads and go out and meet fellow Americans. See if you can pick out who is an evil leftist.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

saveliberty said:


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Me TRIED it, it didn't work...

In 1965, the elderly were the group most likely to be living in poverty--nearly one in three were poor. Today, the poverty rate for the elderly is similar to that of the age group 18-64--about 1 in 10 are poor.

About one-half of America's seniors did not have hospital insurance prior to Medicare. By contrast, 75 percent of adults under age 65 had hospital insurance, primarily through their employer. For the uninsured, needing hospital services could mean going without health care or turning to family, friends, and/or charity to cover medical bills. More than one in four elderly were estimated to go without medical care due to cost concerns.

Medicare, along with other programs, notably Social Security, and a strong economy, have greatly improved the ability of the elderly and the disabled to live without these worries. Medicare covers nearly all of the elderly (about 97 percent), making them the population group most likely to have health insurance coverage.


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> WillowTree said:
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Another correction asshole. All the evil leftists I know are right here on this board. all of em.. I'm tired of you evil leftist assholes telling us day in and day out to pay more taxes. It's isn't right to tell people that while 50% of you are sitting there freeloading off the backs of the 50% who do pay FEDERAL INCOME TAXES.. all you can say is "GIVE US MORE"


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

WillowTree said:


> Bfgrn said:
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willow, I pay federal taxes and state taxes. In the 1990's I probably paid more in taxes than you make.


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> WillowTree said:
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another correction asshole. You are missing the point. Here is is again.. LIsten carefully.. 




*
 I'm tired of you evil leftist assholes telling us day in and day out to pay more taxes. It's isn't right to tell people that while 50% of you are sitting there freeloading off the backs of the 50% who do pay FEDERAL INCOME TAXES.. all you can say is "GIVE US MORE"[/QUOTE]*


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

WillowTree said:


> Bfgrn said:
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[/QUOTE]

He who angers you conquers you.
E. Kenny

willow is pwned.

I wouldn't have you pay more taxes willow, only the wealthy need to pay more. You are a:


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## Meister (Jun 22, 2011)

You didn't pwn Willow BFGRN...not at all.
Be as dense as you want, but if you don't understand, don't pawn it off like you pwn'd someone.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

Meister said:


> You didn't pwn Willow BFGRN...not at all.
> Be as dense as you want, but if you don't understand, don't pawn it off like you pwn'd someone.



You know Meister, it is not your call...


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## Meister (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> Meister said:
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says you...


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

Meister said:


> Bfgrn said:
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Let me walk you through this Meister...

The quote from Elizabeth Kenny is: "He who angers you conquers you."

Conquer and pwned are synonyms.

Now, what would you call *this* Meister?
*
 I'm tired of you evil leftist assholes telling us day in and day out to pay more taxes. It's isn't right to tell people that while 50% of you are sitting there freeloading off the backs of the 50% who do pay FEDERAL INCOME TAXES.. all you can say is "GIVE US MORE"*


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## Meister (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> Meister said:
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eh....my take is she thinks you need glasses because you certainly aren't understanding what she's saying with the normal font, BFGRN.

47% percent of people don't pay income tax and a percentage of them get "earned income credit".  I think this is the point she's trying to drive home to you.  Shrug all you want, but.....


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## Trajan (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Do you guys have a calendar listing moral high ground days?  Weiner is in the grinder and its, moral relativism, now you have the superior position?  I have a basic problem with stealing to provide for anyone.  Now you want to burden a system to the point of failure, then we all have healthcare problems.  What genius on your side thought that was a good idea?
> ...



I see so what happens when the means test SS....and I get dropped to , well, maybe a quarter of the payment I was due? 



I paid my whole life too. Its a social insurance program. 

what if I am healthy or much healthier than the average schlep?  do I get means tested out of medicare?

NO,  they get to use my former social sec. pay out for things lik, Oh,  paying folks who never put in as much AND paying for medicare too, why yes thank you central management....


there another part to that equation to, lets see if you can figure it out....


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## Trajan (Jun 22, 2011)

Meister said:


> You didn't pwn Willow BFGRN...not at all.
> Be as dense as you want, but if you don't understand, don't pawn it off like you pwn'd someone.



as exhibited above in my last post, he doesn't think things thru, just like this plan.......I guess if you are one of the  47%, its great, when you are the  20% that pay 85% of the taxes, well, sit down and stfu.


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## WillowTree (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


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He who angers you conquers you.
E. Kenny

willow is pwned.

I wouldn't have you pay more taxes willow, only the wealthy need to pay more. You are a:







[/QUOTE]

That's what's wrong with you asshole. The wealthy shouldn't have to pay a nickel more until EVERYONE who lives here is paying something. otherwise you got a bunch of leeches leeching off of others. and that's the truth. leeches.


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## daveman (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> Meister said:
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It's damn sure not yours.


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## saveliberty (Jun 22, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> WillowTree said:
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He who angers you conquers you.
E. Kenny

willow is pwned.

I wouldn't have you pay more taxes willow, only the wealthy need to pay more. You are a:






[/QUOTE]

I fail to see how equity or a progressive utopia is being achieved, with only 50% paying.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 22, 2011)

Meister said:


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Pretty disingenuous on your part Meister. Her reply is clearly laced with anger.

People like you and willow are angry, but you have chosen the wrong people to be angry at. You have been brainwashed by the very people you _should_ be angry at. Those statistics are appalling, but they are not a symptom that the American worker is lazy, they are a symptom of a system that has created a plutocracy and is eviscerating the middle class in this country.

The American worker is not lazy, he/she is underpaid.





Sources: US Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics; US Department of Commerce, 
Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States.


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


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Somebody as insignificant in my life sush as yourself, doesn't anger me, BFGRN.....trust me.


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## saveliberty (Jun 23, 2011)

If the American worker is underpaid, why are most of the products Americans choose to buy foreign made?  How is it Americans are paid more to produce similiar products other countries make less expensively?


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

Meister said:


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Don't inflate yourself Meister...I was not talking about me you and willow are angry at. I am referring to who you are brainwashed to be angry at, by the very people who are fucking you in the ass...


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

saveliberty said:


> If the American worker is underpaid, why are most of the products Americans choose to buy foreign made?  How is it Americans are paid more to produce similiar products other countries make less expensively?



It's pretty simple. The countries American corporate traitors outsource jobs to are human and environmental hell holes. Something you right wingers want to turn America into.

















"We didn't inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." 
Lakota Sioux Proverb


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## saveliberty (Jun 23, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> saveliberty said:
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> > If the American worker is underpaid, why are most of the products Americans choose to buy foreign made?  How is it Americans are paid more to produce similiar products other countries make less expensively?
> ...



I have planted over 600 trees this year.  Sorry to burst your incorrect generalization.  Note many of your pics are not corporate generated waste.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

saveliberty said:


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Well, you won't hear liberals calling for an end to the EPA, letting corporations police themselves or allowing coal power plants to continue to kill 13,000 people every year.

I think environmentalist Robert F. Kennedy said it best: "Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

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I've said this before, our government is so bloated that there are layers of the government overlapping other areas of the government.  You get rid of the EPA and another layer of the government picks it up.  We're not down to the bones with our government.


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

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Drink some more Kool-Aid, son.  Because, you certainly are brainwashed and have proven it time and again on this board.


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## auditor0007 (Jun 23, 2011)

Spoonman said:


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The worst thing is that healthcare was so affordable prior to the legislation.  

Funny thing; every year for the past seven or eight years, my health insurance premiums increased by more than 10%.  I just got my increase this year and it was only 6%.  While that is still a decent increase, it is only about half of what I have become accustomed to.  These are real numbers that I am actually seeing and paying, not some talking points.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

Meister said:


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I laugh every time I see your 'old school'... I am old school. I remember when our economy was community based, until BIG corporations took over every aspect of commerce. Now it cost taxpayers money to subsidize the low wages of the Walmarts of the world.

But keep on supporting the GOP...I mean GOC...government of corporations.


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


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And the democrats don't support corporations?  You got me laughing on that one


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

Meister said:


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Laugh all you want. Republicans are owned by corporations and the elite, like the Koch brothers and the Chamber of Commerce. Are there Democrats who could be Republicans, yea, the blue dogs. And although the Democrats are not perfect, they are still overwhelmingly for the people, especially compared to the Republicans.

It is nothing new...

"Republicans approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home--but not for housing. They are strong for labor--but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage--the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all--but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They approve of social security benefits-so much so that they took them away from almost a million people. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine--for people who can afford them. They believe in international trade--so much so that they crippled our reciprocal trade program, and killed our International Wheat Agreement. They favor the admission of displaced persons--but only within shameful racial and religious limitations.They consider electrical power a great blessing--but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They say TVA is wonderful--but we ought never to try it again. They condemn "cruelly high prices"--but fight to the death every effort to bring them down. They think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it."
Truman Library - Public Papers of the Presidents: Harry S. Truman


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

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This is where your brainwashing comes into play, BFGRN.  The democrats are in to corporations just as much...they just do it with a wink and a nod.  Try not to be so naive.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

Meister said:


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Hey Meister, if both parties are the same, and We, the People share the same concerns over corporate power, why is it I never hear anything critical of corporations from YOU or any other right wingers?

BTW, did you know Oscar Wilde personally Meister?

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. 
Oscar Wilde


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


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What's your solution, BFGRN....vote for democrats?


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

Meister said:


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YES...Progressive Democrats, Kennedy Democrats and liberals who are strong on corporate regulations and environmental protection. 

Hey Meister, why are all but one Senators and Congressmen/women named as the dirty dozen all Republicans?







LCV 2010 Dirty Dozen

LCV's trademark Dirty Dozen program targets candidates for Congress &#8212; regardless of party affiliation &#8212; who consistently vote against clean energy and conservation.

Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.
Edmund Burke


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## boedicca (Jun 23, 2011)

Interesting results from McKinsey, which, of course must be vilified and attacked for telling the truth:

_The White House routinely tries to intimidate its health-care critics, but the campaign against McKinsey & Co. is something else. The management consultants attempted to find out how U.S. business will respond to the government restructuring of 17.3% of the economy, Democrats don't like the results, and so McKinsey must pay with its reputation.

*The firm's sin was to canvass some 1,300 companies and report that nearly a third will "definitely" or "probably" stop offering insurance to employees after 2014, dumping them instead into ObamaCare's subsidized exchanges. McKinsey conducted the survey as part of its routine market research.*

Democrats immediately blasted the results, attacked McKinsey's integrity and demanded that it release its methodology and full responses. Nancy-Ann DeParle, the deputy chief of staff who is running ObamaCare from the White House, was withering. Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus chimed in with questions like "Who are your biggest clients? Do you expect McKinsey & Co. to benefit financially from the results of this survey?"

So this week McKinsey opened its books, and what do you know, the survey was rigorous. Respondents were a representative cross-section of businesses of many sizes and across industries and regions, and the questions were impartial...._


Review & Outlook: Shutting Up McKinsey - WSJ.com


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


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Yes...it's a republican problem. 


But tax forms recently made public show that Democrats have not been immune from collecting corporate funds to help its politicians gain an electoral edge. The Democratic Governors Association vacuumed up $11.6 million in contributions -- mostly from corporations and unions -- during the second half of 2009. For the year, DGA raised $23.1 million, a record.
Republicans used a parallel organization, known as the Republican Governor's Association, to bring in nearly $18 million, also largely from corporate donors, most notably large banks and health insurance companies. The GOP also got a boost from wealthy individual givers, including Texas home-builder Bob Perry, a veteran of the 2004 Swift Boat ad campaign that targeted Democratic presidential hopeful John F. Kerry, who gave $2 million, and the celebrity mogul Donald Trump, who gave $75,000. For the year, the RGA pulled in $30 million -- like the Democratic figure, a record.
Democrats Rake In Record Donations From Corporations - ABC News

When totaling the top 100 non-individual donors from this election cycle, the DGA raised $28.2 million with 59 percent coming from corporations, 36 percent from unions and five percent from trade associations. The RGA raised $30.5 million this election cycle from its top 100 non-individual donors with 70 percent coming from corporations, 28 percent coming from trade associations and two percent from ideological organizations. 
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/11/democrats-and-republicans-sharing-b.html


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## Meister (Jun 23, 2011)

View attachment $Top Ten RGA and DGA Corps-thumb-500x181-2946.bmp
Democrats and Republicans Sharing Big-Dollar Donors, DCCCs Million-Dollar Pay-Off and More in Capital Eye Opener: November 10 - OpenSecrets Blog | OpenSecrets


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## daveman (Jun 23, 2011)

"Yeah, but...but...but Democrats don't mean it!  They're just using The Man's money to...errr...speak truth to power!  Yeah, that's it!  KKKorporations, man!!"

RIght, Bfgrn?


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## Bfgrn (Jun 23, 2011)

daveman said:


> "Yeah, but...but...but Democrats don't mean it!  They're just using The Man's money to...errr...speak truth to power!  Yeah, that's it!  KKKorporations, man!!"
> 
> RIght, Bfgrn?



Some of them do speak truth to power, and some of them don't. But there really is no option with the GOP as it is now structured. The GOP is so far to the right of the party of Eisenhower, Everett Dirksen and Goldwater it offers no options.  We need major reform in election funding. Our founding fathers forbid corporations from making any political contributions or even charitable contributions.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jun 23, 2011)

Greenbeard said:


> Meister said:
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> > *"The fact that this is being discovered now tells you, what else is baked into this law?" *said Leavitt, who served as Health and Human Services secretary under President George H.W. Bush.
> ...



The plan was to saddle the states with higher Medicare costs in order to make it look like Obamacare was reducing the health care costs by not adding them to the federal deficit?

Nice to see someone admit it, even if he is a shill.


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## Harry Dresden (Jun 25, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.



well of course.....the guy just got through turning over all those tables that it took them the better part of the morning to set up......


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## Harry Dresden (Jun 25, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> I pay my taxes too willow. You are not civilized. You are completely brainwashed. Why don't you turn off all the right wing talking heads and go out and meet fellow Americans. *See if you can pick out who is an evil leftist*.



i can pick a few out without going outside....they post right here on this board.....i dont want to mention any names....but Dean immediately comes to mind....then theres Chris......Deans public defender Sangha....im sure i am missing a few......


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## Harry Dresden (Jun 25, 2011)

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Robert Jr....is a fucking hypocrite....period.....


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## Trajan (Jun 25, 2011)

Quantum Windbag said:


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*cough medicaid too cough *


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## saveliberty (Jun 25, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> Well, you won't hear liberals calling for an end to the EPA, letting corporations police themselves or allowing coal power plants to continue to kill 13,000 people every year.
> 
> I think environmentalist Robert F. Kennedy said it best: "Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"



Please cite your source for 13,000 deaths in the US from coal power plants.  Also, while your at it, show me how we police ANY of the places in your pictures.  Robert F. Kennnedy was not an environmentalist, he was a growth agent of government.


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## Trajan (Jun 25, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> saveliberty said:
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> > If the American worker is underpaid, why are most of the products Americans choose to buy foreign made?  How is it Americans are paid more to produce similiar products other countries make less expensively?
> ...





> It's pretty simple. The countries American corporate traitors outsource jobs to are human and environmental hell holes. Something you right wingers want to turn America into.



sooo, prior to say 1970, our detritus, exhaust etc. all just magically flew off in the saddlebags of Unicorns?

oh and here we go with the weepy homilies, usually means someone is out of logic......


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## Bfgrn (Jun 26, 2011)

saveliberty said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > Well, you won't hear liberals calling for an end to the EPA, letting corporations police themselves or allowing coal power plants to continue to kill 13,000 people every year.
> ...



We don't police any of the places in the pictures. Try to pay attention. What I said was "It's pretty simple. *The countries American corporate traitors outsource jobs to are human and environmental hell holes.* Something you right wingers want to turn America into." 

Robert F. Kennedy *JUNIOR* - 






*Toxic Air: Time to Clean Up Coal-fired Power Plants* *_______________________________________________*
Did you know that the coal-fired power plants, found across the country, emit health-threatening toxins into our air every day?  Toxins like arsenic, mercury, acid gases and lead. The American Lung Associations new report Toxic Air: The Case for Cleaning Up Coal-fired Power Plants, reveals the hazardous air pollution emitted from power plants and why now is the time to clean them up and protect ou health.

The report highlights the long list of uncontrolled pollutants from these plants including dangerous pollutants such as arsenic, mercury, dioxins, formaldehyde, acid gases and PAHs, just to name a few. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is required on March 16 to issue a proposal to finally clean up these hazardous air pollutants. This comes more than twenty years after Congress added requirements to the Clean Air Actwith strong bipartisan supportthat these toxic emissions must be stopped.

*Hazards revealed*

The Lung Associations report reveals the real public health threat from coal-fired power plants.

>> Coal-fired power plants that sell electricity to the grid produce more hazardous air pollution in the U.S. than any other industrial pollution  sources.

>> More than 400 coal-fired power plants located in 46 states across the country release more that 386,000 tons of hazardous air pollutants into the atmosphere each year.

>> *Particle pollution from power plants is estimated to kill approximately 13,000 people a year.*

Power plant pollution kills people, said Charles D. Connor, President and CEO of the American Lung Association. It threatens the brains and nervous system of children. It can cause cancer, heart attacks and strokes.

Its time that we end the toxic loophole that has allowed coal-burning power plants to operate without any federal limits on emissions of mercury, arsenic, dioxin, acid gases such as hydrogen chloride and other dangerous pollutants, said Charles D. Connor, president and CEO of the American Lung Association.

People living closest to these plants, especially children, seniors, pregnant women and those with chronic disease face the greatest risk, but it doesnt stop there. Pollution from coal-fired power plants takes flight and travels far into other statesthreatening public health.

*Time for EPA to act*

The Clean Air Act requires that hazardous air pollutants from coal-fired power plants be controlled. Because EPA is overdue in delivering its proposal for cleaning up these plants, the agency is under a court order to propose these regulations by March 16. Without the new rules, no national standards exist to limit these pollutants from these plants.

The Lung Association report identifies modern pollution control technologies that that are currently in use in some plants, which are readily available for installation at other plants. The law sets the cleanup requirements based on actual performance facilities, but each power plant will select the specific pollution control strategies to reduce their emissions.

The American public has waited long enoughmore than two decades. We are counting on EPA to protect all Americans from the health risks imposed by these dangerous pollutants once and for all.

More


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## Bfgrn (Jun 26, 2011)

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Educate yourself ...

Historical Photos and Images | About EPA | US EPA

Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement | Great Lakes | US EPA

Caring about the well being of other human beings and every living creature is not ' weepy homilies', it is the foundation of Christianity and the core beliefs this nation was founded on. It is We, the People, not I the person.

Your condemnation says more about you, and what you lack as a human being. Sad for you...


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## Meister (Jun 26, 2011)

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What you deny is the fact that we have layers of government that overlap what the EPA does.  But carry on, nothing like a good fear mongering story from you.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 26, 2011)

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No we don't have layers of government that overlap what the EPA does.

If you really want to eliminate layers of government that overlap what other agencies do, then Fatherland Security should be eliminated tomorrow.


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## Meister (Jun 26, 2011)

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Keep denying it, BFGRN.  Better to fear monger with your silly ass pictures, huh?


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## Bfgrn (Jun 26, 2011)

Meister said:


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No, it's better to be ignorant like you...ignorance is bliss.

The EPA is undermanned and underfunded. The Bush administration eviscerated the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and every environmental law on the books. He set it up so major polluters will NEVER be required to clean up their toxins, and any polluter can now dump waste in any stream in this country by simply filing for a permit from the Corp of Engineers through the mail.

If the American people knew and understood the human toll his policies will cause, he and Cheney would meet the same fate as Mussolini.


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## daveman (Jun 26, 2011)

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Hyperbolic idiot is hyperbolic.


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## Bfgrn (Jun 26, 2011)

daveman said:


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Bush's sorry environmental record
by Former EPA Administrator Russell Train and former New Hampshire State Senator Rick Russman, both REP members
published September 23, 2004 in the Concord (NH) Monitor

Except in a few instances, the environmental policies of the Bush administration are a disgrace.

As lifelong Republicans who have worked for decades to protect and restore clean air and clean water, we find the turning back of the environmental clock by this administration profoundly disturbing. And New Hampshire suffers from these backward policies.

Republican President Richard Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency. In his 1970 State of the Union message, he called the environmental cause "as fundamental as life itself." With bipartisan leadership in Congress, Nixon initiated many of the environmental protections we enjoy today.

Republican President George H.W. Bush signed the Clean Air Act of 1990, one of the most protective environmental statutes.

Unfortunately, President George W. Bush's administration is reversing course from 30 years of bipartisan leadership to protect our health and environment.

The administration's policies to promote energy, mining and timber interests with little regard for the interests of common citizens represent a throwback to an era of exploitation. The administration's assault on the environment has increased pollution and health threats in New Hampshire, according to a report by Environment2004.

The administration weakened the Clean Air Act to allow aging power plants to continue spewing sulfur, mercury and other contaminants into the skies. These end up in New Hampshire's air and waters. This pollution from Midwestern power plants and other sources forms smog that threatens the 65,000 New Hampshire residents who suffer from asthma. It falls as acid rain that damages New Hampshire's forests and waters.

Mercury pollution has forced New Hampshire to establish a fish consumption advisory that covers all its lakes and rivers. Infants, children, pregnant women and women of child-bearing age are particularly vulnerable to mercury. Mercury affects a child's ability to learn, most notably impairing memory, attention and fine motor function.

New Hampshire's drinking water is threatened by the Bush administration. Fifteen percent of New Hampshire's public water supplies and thousands of its private wells are contaminated by the fuel additive MtBE. Recent studies show that MtBE may cause cancer, and it makes drinking water smell and taste foul even at low levels, yet the administration has not banned its use.

To pay for the cleanup of this contamination, New Hampshire sued 22 oil companies responsible for MtBE contamination. Nonetheless, the Bush administration's energy bill would block these suits and force New Hampshire taxpayers to foot the bill for cleaning up the state's contaminated drinking water. The industry contributed $338,000 to the Bush presidential campaign and Republican congressional candidates in 1999 and 2000.

Republican Sens. Judd Gregg and John Sununu fervently oppose this policy.

The administration has adopted these and other policies based on the advice of its industry allies instead of the EPA's scientists and experts. Its proposed mercury policy would delay significant mercury reduction until 2018. This was lifted from the utility industry's recommendations while the administration ignored the EPA's children's health protection experts.

This is but one example of the administration disregarding scientific guidance - a radical change from previous Republican and Democratic administrations.

There was no mandate in the 2000 election to weaken and undo our environmental and public health protections. In this year's election, environmental policy needs a full public debate.


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## daveman (Jun 26, 2011)

Yeah, yeah, Bush wanted to kill us all for profit and oil and just because.


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## Wry Catcher (Jun 26, 2011)

Meister said:


> Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> 
> *AP: Glitch in Obamacare would place couples earning up to $64,000 in Medicaid*
> 
> ...



So?  Do you believe such corrections are only needed for this bill?  You post will create a huge echo, I'm sure (I've only read your post #1 meister) but suspect the hue and cry will be loud and punctuated with the melodramatic.


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## WillowTree (Jun 26, 2011)

Wry Catcher said:


> Meister said:
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> > Now that we passed it we are finding out what's in it.
> ...



Tissue?


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## Bfgrn (Jun 26, 2011)

daveman said:


> Yeah, yeah, Bush wanted to kill us all for profit and oil and just because.



There is nothing that can penetrate your dogma, ignorance and Bush worship, even Republicans calling Bush out is dismissed...

Hey Monica, write Bush a letter, maybe he'll let you suck his dick...


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## Meister (Jun 26, 2011)

Wry Catcher said:


> Meister said:
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This coming from the left wing partisan hack.


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## daveman (Jun 27, 2011)

Bfgrn said:


> daveman said:
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> > Yeah, yeah, Bush wanted to kill us all for profit and oil and just because.
> ...



  Calling you a retard is not "Bush worship".

Retard.


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