# Proposed Iranian Law on Marrying One's Adopted Child......



## MHunterB (Oct 1, 2013)

Iran lawmakers pass bill allowing men to marry adopted daughters | World news | theguardian.com

"Parliamentarians in Iran have passed a bill to protect the rights of children which includes a clause that allows a man to marry his adopted daughter and while she is as young as 13 years.

Activists have expressed alarm that the bill, approved by parliament on Sunday, opens the door for the caretaker of a family to marry his or her adopted child if a court rules it is in the interests of the individual child.

Iran's Guardian Council, a body of clerics and jurists which vets all parliamentary bills before the constitution and the Islamic law, has yet to issue its verdict on the controversial legislation......"

Now this bill hasn't been 'ratified' by the clerics yet - but the fact that there was enough support for it to pass to begin with suggests it has a degree of support.

Actually, the most upsetting sentence in the entire article, IMO, was this one:  "Execution of juvenile offenders in Iran has also been in spotlight in recent years amid confusion between the age of majority  when minors cease to be legally considered children  and the *minimum age of criminal responsibility, which is 15 for boys and nine for girls* under Iranian law.


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## Hollie (Oct 4, 2013)

It&#8217;s NOT AT ALL clear to me that what&#8217;s happening anywhere in the Middle East (and the Iranian Dark Agers may be the worst of the lot), has any kind of potential to disgorge anything democratic, rational, or un-Islamic. For the past 150 years while the rest of the world has been scrambling to rationalize politics, society, and economics, the Arabs and Persian Iranians have been firmly in the grip of autocracy and Islamist retrogression.

Where enlightened efforts were previously made in Turkey, Iran, and even Afghanistan to break free of the mullahcrats, those nations have been or are being dragged back to the archetypical Islamic sand farm. One way or another, a Muslim state that purports to &#8220;modernize&#8221; can be likened to a satellite in a degrading orbit around the earth &#8211; huge, huge effort to get up there in the first place but inevitable failure down range.

In-ev-i-ta-ble.


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## Rct_Tsoul (Oct 7, 2013)

In Islamic culture, you must be a virgin to be suitable for marriage, and since most female child adoptions in the middle east result in the girl being used as a PLASTIC FUCK DOLL upon the moment of arrival, it is for the best, nobody is going to ask for the hand of marriage from a woman that grew up in a foster home .............. her breathe probably still smells like CUM.


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## sambino510 (Oct 13, 2013)

This is a bit off topic, I admit, but at least Iran "proposes" or "votes" on laws. At least they are, technically speaking, a democracy, despite whatever influence Ayatollah Khamenei has. Other U.S. allies, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and others, are still ruled by nepotistic royal families. Egypt would also be on this list of monarchic/dictatorial U.S. allies if not for the Arab Spring, which we went along with to save face. Yet, we never bring up their backwards ways in the discussion of Islamic culture, because we don't want to rock the boat and ruin our military and trade deals with them. I'll be the first to say that Iran has many strange or immoral practices, but the double standard has to stop some day.

Also, as we (most of us who I assume are American) analyze these other countries, we must remember that there is no strict "right" way of doing things. That is, just because the Western world doesn't allow men to marry their adopted daughters, that doesn't mean other countries around the world don't behave in such a way. Not only that, but who are we to say that our way is morally superior? That's the definition of ethnocentrism.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 13, 2013)

*Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *


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## sambino510 (Oct 13, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *



I'd say he's more of a director than an actor, and the fact he's Jewish is irrelevant, but I would argue that yes, that is a very similar case. And there are many cases of Americans getting married to questionable people, whether family members or otherwise. Several actors, some in their 60s or 70s, are married to women in their 20s, for instance.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 13, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> I'd say he's more of a director than an actor, and the fact he's Jewish is irrelevant, but I would argue that yes, that is a very similar case. And there are many cases of Americans getting married to questionable people, whether family members or otherwise.


Since he is a jew no one will say anything for fear they will be called anti-semitic.

It's the juden stay out of jail card.  ..


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## Hossfly (Oct 13, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *


Do we even know if in the Muslim world that the Muslims don't marry all three or four of their adopted daughters?  Maybe Sunni Man can pull up some stuff for us about adoptions in the Muslim world, especially when they are little girls and not grownups.  As an aside, Sunni Man would have made a good S.S. man.  He can't restrain himself from calling the Jews Juden just like the Nazis did.


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## sambino510 (Oct 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *
> ...



First off, I agree that Juden is more-or-less a derogatory term towards Jews, and should not be used due to its obvious connotations. Secondly, your view is that Muslims are worse than Woody Allen because they marry several adopted daughters while he only married one. I disagree with this because the amount is irrelevant; the idea is still that marrying your adopted daughter is okay, whether its one daughter or one thousand daughters. Also, the girl Woody Allen adopted was 8 at the time of adoption, and then later became married to Woody Allen. So, she was indeed a little girl, just like the hypothetical Muslim little girls you bring up. I'm not familiar with how adoptions work in the Muslim world, but I don't think your argument as to why their ways are morally inferior is valid. 

As my own personal aside, having had an Indian girlfriend previously whose parents were an arranged marriage, India has a number of questionable marriage practices as well, so let's not pretend this problem is unique to the Muslim world.


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## Indofred (Oct 13, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *



Will you stop doing that, please.

This is a perfectly good anti Muslim thread so I must insist you stop ruining it with little facts like, Americans have actually done this whilst Iranian law only allows it.


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## sambino510 (Oct 13, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *
> ...



Yes, it's always a nuisance when people ruin biased, one-sided threads with "facts".

An important part of intellectual discussion is self-reflection. Meaning, analyzing our own culture in comparison to the culture of others. That's all we were attempting to do.

Though frankly I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic, as you seem to promote "peace, love and understanding", and thus would be unlikely to promote anti-Muslim behavior. So, I apologize if you were not being serious. Either way, I think bringing up Americans as an example is a valid argument.


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## Hossfly (Oct 13, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> Hossfly said:
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I have no objection to someone marrying a female he adopted (no matter what age he adopted her) as long as that person is of age and knows her own mind regardless of the religion of both parties (although this is something I would never consider doing myself).  However, when young girls are married off to an adopted father and they have no say in this, then I would object and tell the man to wait until the female was of an age where she could think for herself.  However, I think we all realize that there are many kooks in Hollywood, so Woody Allen is really a bad example to bring up, and the only reason he was brought up by Sunni Man is because he is Jewish and gave Sunni Man an opportunity to throw out "Juden" once again.   Do you really think that Sunni Man would have said anything if it happened to be a Muslim director or producer marrying his adopted daughter?


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## sambino510 (Oct 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> sambino510 said:
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Perhaps he wouldn't bring it up if he was a Muslim, but assuming such is only widening the divide between us. That's all I'm trying to get across. I, too, share your views that a girl should be of age (18) before being married off. However, "being of age" is viewed differently in different cultures, and thus I don't think I have a right to tell other countries what it means to "be of age". All we can hope is that the people of that particular society eventually reform, but that is still their choice to make, and they should not be subject to our biased interpretation of right and wrong.


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## Indofred (Oct 13, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> Yes, it's always a nuisance when people ruin biased, one-sided threads with "facts".
> 
> An important part of intellectual discussion is self-reflection. Meaning, analyzing our own culture in comparison to the culture of others. That's all we were attempting to do.
> 
> Though frankly I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic, as you seem to promote "peace, love and understanding", and thus would be unlikely to promote anti-Muslim behavior. So, I apologize if you were not being serious. Either way, I think bringing up Americans as an example is a valid argument.



It wasn't just Americans, more several people from and in a variety of non Muslim countries in order to demonstrate "honour killing" is a world wide problem, not just a Muslim thing as many idiots want us to believe.
Of course, some Muslims do this and there's no argument to that, but targeting one group isn't going to do any good as far as stopping this violence against women is concerned.


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## MHunterB (Oct 13, 2013)

As the OP, I can tell you I didn't start this thread for any 'anti-Muslim' purpose.  This is essentially a move by some in Iran to legalize child abuse on several levels - and it has NOTHING to do with religion.

Sunni wants to act like he's got pigshit for brains, and Fred has done his best to abet the asinine vulgarity and filth, supporting the baiting efforts.

I'm sad that neither of you is willing or able to take the topic seriously.  I honestly DID expect responsible adults of whatever faith to read the article and examine the concerns voiced by the children's advocates.

Apparently neither one of you is actually a responsible adult - regardless of your boasting that you submit to GOD's Will.   I do not believe it is His will that children should be so completely at the mercy of adoptive parents......


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## MHunterB (Oct 13, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> Sunni Man said:
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> > *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *
> ...



Sambino, I agree - and I found it disgusting at the time.   It's similar to the several instances of adult women teachers instigating sexual relationships with young teen male students:  it's an abuse of a child by an adult in a position of authority, and it's reprehensible.

When adoption or foster parenting is involved, it's also incest.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 13, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> As the OP, I can tell you I didn't start this thread for any 'anti-Muslim' purpose.  This is essentially a move by some in Iran to legalize child abuse on several levels -* and it has NOTHING to do with religion.*


Yea, sure, we believe you..............................................................................Not  .


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## MHunterB (Oct 13, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > As the OP, I can tell you I didn't start this thread for any 'anti-Muslim' purpose.  This is essentially a move by some in Iran to legalize child abuse on several levels -* and it has NOTHING to do with religion.*
> ...



Your being Muslim doesn't have a thing to do with my finding you disgusting.  You're just a vile vulgar troll, as I'm sure you were all along.  

Too bad you're intent on promoting bigotry and ill-will here, rather than seeking to address a most vile 'law' the crazy old creeps in Tehran are considering.  Marrying an adopted child should be illegal the whole world 'round.

Again, it has NOTHING to do with religion.  Mock all you wish.  GOD is not mocked.......


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## MHunterB (Oct 13, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > As the OP, I can tell you I didn't start this thread for any 'anti-Muslim' purpose.  This is essentially a move by some in Iran to legalize child abuse on several levels -* and it has NOTHING to do with religion.*
> ...



Incidentally, oh eater of pigshit - why did you speak in the plural?  Your lice's opinions don't count here.....


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## sambino510 (Oct 14, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> sambino510 said:
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Sadly, a child is subject to the will of an adult more often than not, whether we like it or not. It's a sad reality, but one we have to face. Also, I would argue that things like incest, and sexual relations between an adult and a minor, are more common in the world than they are not. Meaning, America or the "West" may not practice it, but its fairly common practice otherwise. I would also argue that just because a man or woman has sexual relations with a minor ,that does not necessarily constitute "child abuse", at least not in the nefarious way that you are probably thinking of.

Anyways, different cultures do different things and I don't think any of us are in a position to judge or say "my way is right and your way is wrong".


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## sambino510 (Oct 14, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> As the OP, I can tell you I didn't start this thread for any 'anti-Muslim' purpose.  This is essentially a move by some in Iran to legalize child abuse on several levels - and it has NOTHING to do with religion.
> 
> Sunni wants to act like he's got pigshit for brains, and Fred has done his best to abet the asinine vulgarity and filth, supporting the baiting efforts.
> 
> ...



Frankly, you do not seem to be a responsible adult either, as you have also resorted to name-calling in your arguments towards Sunni or Fred. I would suggest we all just relax and have an intellectual conversation about an important issue, not act like children in the schoolyard.


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## MHunterB (Oct 14, 2013)

Well, Sambino - that was my intent and what I kept trying to do.

I suppose that you and I could have that conversation, as long as you're not going to insist I'm a liar and a bigot for trying to repeat the alarm which child advocates in Iran have already sounded : ))  If you can refrain from using the kind of patently offensive language that Sunni perennially does, that would make adult discussion easier.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 14, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Well, Sambino - that was my intent and what I kept trying to do.
> 
> I suppose that you and I could have that conversation, as long as you're not going to insist I'm a liar and a bigot *for trying to repeat the alarm which child advocates in Iran have already sounded : ))  If you can refrain from using the kind of patently offensive language that Sunni perennially does, that would make adult discussion easier.*


LOL......... so now you want to take the high road??  .  

Here is what you just said on post #19

"Incidentally, oh eater of pigshit - why did you speak in the plural? Your lice's opinions don't count here....."

You juden are a laugh a minute.  ..


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## fairandbalanced (Oct 14, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *



First of all Woody Allen is as Jewish as Karl Marx. Secondly, you bring up a single person who married an adopted daughter when the discussion is about legalizing this horrible practice.
As a Muslim, you must know what "sigha" means, right Sunni Man? The law that you can "marry" a girl for as little as 15 minutes. This is not called what it is, prostitution, but is referred to as marriage. The johns and pedophiles are like kids in candy store, and marry underage girls (and young/widowed women)any time they get a hard on.
By the way, aren't you supposed to be in Mecca, buying an animal for the upcoming blood orgy?


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## irosie91 (Oct 14, 2013)

for the record----that little girl that   woody allen married is NOT his adopted daughter---
it is the adopted daughter of   MIA FARROW       Woody and Mia were having an affair--
kinda living together         I am not sure but I do not think they were married. ----
so woody met -----the little girl thru his lover Mia Farrow ----------I found the whole thing 
sleazy------but it is not woody's adopted daughter.     If it were woodys adopted daughter----
I think it would be illegal in the USA for him to marry her


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## Hossfly (Oct 14, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> MHunterB said:
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> > Well, Sambino - that was my intent and what I kept trying to do.
> ...


But, Sunni, it is you Muslim converts who are a laugh a minute because you are so obvious.  I wonder if the mosque that Sunni Man now attends has told its members that on the Internet refer to the Jews as Juden, just like the Nazis did.  It is no wonder that many of the old Nazis fled to the Middle East because they felt comfortable there.  Probably those old Nazis, when speaking to the Arabs, kept on throwing out a Juden here and a Juden there in their conversations about how they wished they could have finished the job of exterminating all the Jews, even though Sunni Man himself insists in many of his posts on another forum that there was no Holocaust and it is all a hoax.


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## MHunterB (Oct 14, 2013)

I don't see any reason to be polite to Nazis, Holocaust deniers - or those who support them.


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## Indofred (Oct 14, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> But, Sunni, it is you Muslim converts who are a laugh a minute because you are so obvious.  .



Generalisations are generally a load of old crap.
I'm also a Muslim convert but I have no issue with the truth of the Nazi holocaust.
Millions (no one knows exactly how many) were murdered by the Nazis in camps.

Now, given I have agreed without reservation, the truth of those terrible events, how do you justify talking about Muslim converts as thinking with one mind?


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## MHunterB (Oct 14, 2013)

Fred, I know you are no Holocaust denier - which is why I found your support for Sunni's trolling revolting.  

I thought you knew me well enough by now to realize I wasn't intending to attack 'Islam'.   The mullahs of Iran may *claim* to be 'religious', but they are nasty old men who are actively promoting evil against women of every age - and that is as wrong as wrong can be.


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## sambino510 (Oct 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> I don't see any reason to be polite to Nazis, Holocaust deniers - or those who support them.



Well, as adults I think we all have a responsibility to avoid fighting fire with fire. That is, if you respond to personal attacks with more personal attacks, you sink down to their level and become part of the problem. It also tends to downgrade how seriously people take your arguments, which would be unfortunate because I feel that even though I may disagree with your views, you still have intelligent things to say.


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## irosie91 (Oct 15, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Hossfly said:
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> > But, Sunni, it is you Muslim converts who are a laugh a minute because you are so obvious.  .
> ...





No large group of people  "thinks with one mind"    ----But if you are attempting 
to claim that there is no fairly STANDARD ISLAMIC TEACHING---repeated 
incessantly in mosques  to  lots and lots of highly receptive people----then you are 
lying       HOLOCAUST DENIAL  is standard  islamic partyline------that comes up with some 
regularity in the weekly   Khutbah Jumaat  feces fling----.     As an INDONESIAN----how do you think   100   Indonesian   muslim 14 year old ----bright kids would respond to  
   "do the jews lie about that happened to them in Germany during world war II"   ??

 ALL OF SCIENCE DEPENDS ON STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT  ***GENERALIZATIONS***

   how do you imagine the  "NORMAL"   HEMATOCRIT  was determined  ??  
                                            (it is not found in the koran)


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## Sunni Man (Oct 15, 2013)

I have attend the Friday services of many different mosques throughout the years.

And not once has the Holocaust been the subject of a lecture at the mosque.  ..


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## irosie91 (Oct 15, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> I have attend the Friday services of many different mosques throughout the years.
> 
> And not once has the Holocaust been the subject of a lecture at the mosque.  ..




I have attended friday services at mosques too. -----try to stay awake----for a better 
understanding of the filth you learn-----ask  bright  adolescents what they BELIEVE.
Adolescent kids are excellent parrots and more attentive to the details of  "BELIEF"

You may be surprised as to how  CREDULOUS  children are


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## sambino510 (Oct 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Sunni Man said:
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> > I have attend the Friday services of many different mosques throughout the years.
> ...



Regardless of whether or not such things are taught in the mosque, its unhealthy to assume such is true in MOST cases. There is nothing special about Islam that makes it some horribly evil religion, no more than any other religion. Christianity and Judaism have been used for evil throughout history as well. They're a vessel that the right person can use to further their political agenda, that's all. Many Christian churches throughout America teach you to hate homosexuals, or hate yourself if you are homosexual. Certain churches even practice polygomy. Many Ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel wouldn't even want women at certain public spaces. I just don't like us to single out Islam like it's the ONLY problematic religion in the world, or that the Qur'an is some book of pure evil.


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## irosie91 (Oct 15, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> irosie91 said:
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  Thats nice that you do not like to single out islam as the only problematic 
religion-----your comment suggests that  I DID.     I did not----I pointed out that 
the standard islamic partyline regarding  Israel is   "DESTROY HER" .....and also ---
muslim children are taught to believe very negative things about jews.  
My sense is that you know nothing about it.    I have interacted with muslims in the 
USA for more than the past 50 years and my husband was born in a shariah adherent 
society.  

There are all kinds of social situations in the world about which I know 
nothing------I generally do not comment as if I do.     Sometimes I ask people 
who DO KNOW given the opportunity.  

For the record----muslim children are also taught to believe some very 
startling things about christianity----in the mosques

Muslims I have known from south-east asia  clearly grew up hating 
hindus

Pakistanis I have known----clearly hated shiites

Iranians gag at the word  "arab"  

In all societies there are a whole bunch of COMMONLY HELD BELIEFS ----denying 
that fact is -----dumb


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## sambino510 (Oct 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> sambino510 said:
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I apologize if I mis-represented your beliefs, that was not my intention. My intention also was not to make a comment in a way that made it seem like I felt I knew everything..far from it. I am certainly no expert in the subject, but I am aware of the things you have stated, and agree with all of them. There just seems to be a fixation by some people on Islam, or Middle Eastern culture, as a particularly hateful one, and all I'm saying is there are the same problems in Europe or North America or South America or Africa or Asia as well. I'm sure you agree with this.


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## Hossfly (Oct 16, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Hossfly said:
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> > But, Sunni, it is you Muslim converts who are a laugh a minute because you are so obvious.  .
> ...


Why, Freddie, how come you have never spoken up when Sunni Man on so many occasions called the Holocaust a hoax.  You were very, very silent, the same way you are silent when he throws out Juden all the time, just like the Nazis did.  And you seem to have no problem always calling the Israelis bastards even though I don't think anyone has ever seen you call any Muslims bastards even though they are suicide bombing and car bombing and slitting throats.  You might disagree with what they are doing, but the word "bastards" seems to be reserved by you for the Israelis.  Are the Muslims given a pass, and only the Israelis are bastards in your opinion.  Oh, by the way, even though the Nazis kept excellent records of those who died in the camps, there are loads of bodies still being found in graves.  Plus I don't think you have ever heard of the Einsatzgruppen with their mobile gassing killing units.  Who even knows how many were killed this way in addition to the gas chambers at the camps.


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## Hossfly (Oct 16, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> irosie91 said:
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The big difference here, Sambino, is that regardless of how the church feels about homosexuals, you don't see the members of the church go out to find homosexuals to put at the end of a noose.  Plus you don't find Christians in the 21st century murdering people because they are non Christians or Christians who belong to a different denomination than they are (like what you see between the Sunnis and the Shiites).  In addition, regardless of how some Orthodox Jews feel about keeping women away from some public places, they are not cutting off their fingers if they say they want an education or some other horrible thing which happens to Muslim women.  I don't think any person who is non Muslim would want to see 850 million Hindus eradicated like a Muslim woman poster living here in the U.S. now stated because she wants to see Islam rule India.  And she even believes in this day and age that people can be turned into animals.  No one is saying that all Muslims are bad, but when we look around and see what is happening in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia and see how many Muslims are involved, no civilized person is going to think that these people are angels.  You can think whatever  you want to, but on the other hand, we can also have our own opinions too.  By the way, I believe polygamy is illegal in the U.S. and you would rarely see this practiced now in the U.S. by some Mormon group.   However, it sure must be nice to have legalized prostitution in the Muslim world where you can take a temporary wife.  This Muta thing sounds like a good deal when a Muslim man is bored with his four wives.  I think  you should look into what is taught in the madrassas in places such as Pakistan and then tell us if in Christian and Jewish religious schools in the civilized world  things are taught on the same order.


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## irosie91 (Oct 17, 2013)

sambino510 said:


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It is reasonable to believe that dogmatic beliefs are taught in MOST mosques---
after hearing the same stuff repeated by scores of muslims over many decades and 
reading it in their literature.       It is reasonable to believe that  a  PREVALENT 
christian teaching is    "JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF MANKIND"??    I have 
attended churches during my life-time too-----and have spoken to lots of christians ---
did I   "OVER-GENERALIZE"????       As to your comparison----fact is that you probably 
have met some jews but never met one who demand that women and men be 
segregated in buses.     You chose a really bad example-----since those people are 
a tiny minority        I met lots of muslims-----if all of them expressed the SAME 
belief------chances are it is a belief taught thruout the islamic world      If you ever 
meet  a muslim------ask him  "HOW MANY VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE EXIST"-----has the 
bible been changed many times over the past   three or two thousand years 
A very very prevalent teaching is that the bible is altered regularly -----in order to 
more effectively DISPUTE ISLAM--------believe it or not-------ask a bright mosque 
going adolescent       I never heard the word   "koran"   in either a church or a 
synagogue.    If you wish to deny the  FACT  that  "other religions"   are trashed 
in mosques----you are living in a state of  DENIAL.     If you wish to say---that 
sometimes -----maybe  -----a specific religion is trashed in a church----go 
right ahead-----I believe that such aberrations  do   'happen' ----but it is not 
prevalent


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## Peterf (Oct 17, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> This is a bit off topic, I admit, but at least Iran "proposes" or "votes" on laws. At least they are, technically speaking, a democracy, despite whatever influence Ayatollah Khamenei has. Other U.S. allies, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and others, are still ruled by nepotistic royal families. Egypt would also be on this list of monarchic/dictatorial U.S. allies if not for the Arab Spring, which we went along with to save face. Yet, we never bring up their backwards ways in the discussion of Islamic culture, because we don't want to rock the boat and ruin our military and trade deals with them. I'll be the first to say that Iran has many strange or immoral practices, but the double standard has to stop some day.
> 
> Also, as we (most of us who I assume are American) analyze these other countries, we must remember that there is no strict "right" way of doing things. That is, just because the Western world doesn't allow men to marry their adopted daughters, that doesn't mean other countries around the world don't behave in such a way. Not only that, but who are we to say that our way is morally superior? That's the definition of ethnocentrism.



Iranian 'democracy' is an illusion: only candidates approved by the theocracy are allowed to stand for election to public office.    Don't be fooled by the propaganda.


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## Peterf (Oct 17, 2013)

sambino510 said:


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But it's a question of degree.   All religions are to some extent  bad.   At various times in history Christianity has been very bad.    But these days there is only one religion which is a murderous death cult, which is utterly intolerant,  which is not only non-democratic but anti-democratic.   And that is Islam.


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## MHunterB (Oct 17, 2013)

Sambino, while I admire your attempt to refrain from imposing 'Western' morality on anyone else - the issue was NOT 'Western' objections, but the objections from CHILD PROTECTIVE GROUPS IN IRAN, from other Iranians.

Does your list of 'ethnocentric' issues include FGM as well - I'm curious.  How about chopping off a finger joint or two as a sign of mourning ?  IF you're willing to draw a line, just where would that be?
\
   Is there NO practice of any other culture which you can bring yourself to see as harmful?


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## irosie91 (Oct 17, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > sambino510 said:
> ...




well,,   no----I do not agree with you.    I do not agree with you that   ALL 
HUMAN SOCIETIES ARE THE SAME and share the same hatreds or 
"comprable hatreds"    and the same mechanisms for dealing with them. 

I grew up in a kinda  "nazi" town-----lots of highly bigoted people-----
the UBER  population was  WASP      who hated blacks, jews,  
hispanics,  vulcans and in some cases---catholics .    My first encounter 
with a  THEOLOGICAL DISPUTE   was at age six when I witnessed 
a catholic playmate and a protestant play mate debating  
MARY   (mother of jesus)   The protestant girl said with 
bitter denigration   "YOU PRAY TO MARY"   ------I am a jew---
but I got the picture       Lots of people had  a "reason"  to hate---
their neighbors ------but somehow none of the churches EXPLODED---
nor did the synagogues.     There was PLENTY of hatred expressed----
but no bombs       A  nearby city became progressively   "muslim"   over the 
decades      THAT CITY EXPLODED IN JUBILANT CELEBRATION ---
on 9-11-01.     Some societies are a lot more genteel in their hatreds 
than others ------another city---a bit further away is known as the place 
wherein the first bombing of the WORLD TRADE CENTER   1993----was 
planned.      When I was a kid----no one was planning to bomb major 
buildings there


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## Jos (Oct 17, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Does your list of 'ethnocentric' issues include FGM as well - I'm curious.  How about chopping off a finger joint or two as a sign of mourning ?  IF you're willing to draw a line, just where would that be?
> \
> Is there NO practice of any other culture which you can bring yourself to see as harmful?



Do you tolerate Male genital cutting?


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## sambino510 (Oct 17, 2013)

As a general reply to everyone who has criticized my posts, I'll say this. Never would I try to make excuses for people that do horrible things to others. That is not my intention, and has never been my intention. I'm just saying that when you get down to the nuts and bolts, many societies in this world aren't necessarily on the moral high ground.

First off, I agree with pretty much everything you've all said, in terms of what is fairly commonly taught in madrassas and mosques and that some of the practices, such as cutting off limbs and the like, are deplorable. 

Secondly, it is also true that, MOST of the time, other religions only speak of their prejudices and their hatred, rather than act on it, but I think that isn't necessarily much of a distinction. Not one that comforts me anyways, especially when homosexuals still are being encouraged to go to correctional therapy or are beat up by their classmates or the like. Just one example, but that's a whole other issue. Yes, I'm aware Islam also does not generally look highly on homosexuals, so no need to state that as well.

Thirdly, in terms of villages celebrating 9/11 or planning the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center or all that, death of the enemy is celebrated in all major cultures. Now, one would probably argue with me that us having celebratory barbeques outside the white house and chanting "USA" after we killed Bin Laden is different than a village or group cheering at the death of 3000 people, and for the most part I'd tend to agree. However, there are historical comparisons that can be drawn. In World War II, for instance, I think most Americans, Englishmen, Russians, etc., didnt give a damn about the average German or Japanese citizen, and vice versa. The more that died the better. They were all seen as part of the evil. This has been true for hundreds of conflicts throughout human time. I'm not saying I agree with such views, but it's not THAT unrealistic for people to cheer the death of a country across the world that has interfered in their affairs for a century. There was no doubt people that cheered the bombing of Baghdad as well, or would cheer an invasion of Iran, etc. 

All that being said, let's just say Islam truly is, at its heart, the most "evil" religion in this world and that it's a serious problem. How do we suppose we will solve this problem? Invading various countries and installing a democracy and abolishing Sharia? If these countries wish to change their culture and "progress", they can and will do so some day, some how. Until then, we have to combat evil in this world with good, hate with love, and refrain from hateful generalizations about any particular ethnicity or religion. Even if others, (Muslims, for example) say hateful things about us. I'm not saying any of you display such qualities, just food for thought.


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## sambino510 (Oct 17, 2013)

Peterf said:


> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> > This is a bit off topic, I admit, but at least Iran "proposes" or "votes" on laws. At least they are, technically speaking, a democracy, despite whatever influence Ayatollah Khamenei has. Other U.S. allies, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and others, are still ruled by nepotistic royal families. Egypt would also be on this list of monarchic/dictatorial U.S. allies if not for the Arab Spring, which we went along with to save face. Yet, we never bring up their backwards ways in the discussion of Islamic culture, because we don't want to rock the boat and ruin our military and trade deals with them. I'll be the first to say that Iran has many strange or immoral practices, but the double standard has to stop some day.
> ...



What is the point of people fighting to establish democracy in their countries if the rest of the world will just view it as a hoax? Shall the Iranian voters stay home next time? I, personally, have seen no proof of any interference by the Guardian Council or Ayatollah, and until I do, cannot make assumptions about Ahmadinejad's re-election, Rouhani's "allowed" election, or otherwise. The theocracy does only allow particular candidates to run, that much is certain, but in terms of manipulating the votes, I'm skeptical. Just because a theocracy picks their candidates and political parties pick ours, doesn't make their system less Democratic or ours more so. I'd rather have a broken democracy than a nepotistic monarch like Saudi Arabia or Bahrain any day, though certainly neither is preferable.


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## MHunterB (Oct 17, 2013)

Er, while 'political parties' pick our candidates - the supposition is that they do so via caucuses and VOTING by the members of the party, ordinary citizens.

There appears to be no such 'grassroots' approach to candidacy in Iran.  Further, their 'democratic representation' of minority communities consists of a single set-aside seat.  There are more Muslims in the Knesset than Jews in the Iranian legislature.


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## Peterf (Oct 18, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> > sambino510 said:
> ...



If you allow only candidates that meet your requirement to stand there is no need 'to manipulate the votes'.    'Democracy' in Iran IS a hoax an it is entirely appropriate for the rest of the world - me - to point that out.

In what is know as the West a multiplicity of parties pick the candidates; in Iran a single theocracy does.   I expect that if you think about it you will be able to see there is a difference in terms of democracy.


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## Nox (Oct 18, 2013)

This is just cultural way of thinking , not an universal rule . According to what you determine the moral values while you judge islam . An atheist cannot determine moral values without cultural influences or religious influences . 

Allah says, you call them as my children (for adopted persons) but this is just the word you use , they're not your real children and they have to know their real parents , if you dont know who is their parents , then they are your brothers and sisters in faith and your pals .


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## Sunni Man (Oct 18, 2013)

No two countries democracies are the same.

The U.S. has a representative style democracy.

Whereas, England uses a direct parliamentary type of democracy.

Italy, France, Greece, Brazil, etc., all have different democratic systems based on their history and traditions.

Thus, Iran is no different in having a democratic process that reflects it's unique culture.  ..


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## Peterf (Oct 18, 2013)

Nox said:


> This is just cultural way of thinking , not an universal rule . According to what you determine the moral values while you judge islam . An atheist cannot determine moral values without cultural influences or religious influences .
> 
> Allah says, you call them as my children (for adopted persons) but this is just the word you use , they're not your real children and they have to know their real parents , if you dont know who is their parents , then they are your brothers and sisters in faith and your pals .



We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals.   The latter come with rather too much religious baggage.     And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture.    Don't you think that honesty in commercial transactions, for example, is desirable everywhere?  And is not government with the consent of the governed a universal good?


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## Sunni Man (Oct 18, 2013)

Peterf said:


> We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals.   The latter come with rather too much religious baggage.     And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture.


That's exactly what the Soviet era communists used to say.

How well did that work out??  .


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## Nox (Oct 18, 2013)

Peterf said:


> We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals.   The latter come with rather too much religious baggage.     And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture.    Don't you think that honesty in commercial transactions, for example, is desirable everywhere?  And is not government with the consent of the governed a universal good?



You atheists figure your moral values under the influence of your social environment , you just dont avare of it . You think that marrying with your adopted girl is a very bad situation , but there are atheists who marry with his OWN daughter in Sweden and its met very normal by other atheists  . 

Maybe an atheist behave honest on his trade works , because people wont work with him if he behave bad and this will harm his financial situation . But sometimes you can do little tricks in your jobs , this will allow you the advantage . 

A believer will behave honest on his trade , because being honest is the correct way recommended by God,Allah,Cosmos whatever ... Even though being honest will harm his trade , he will continue to be honest .


This is the difference ...


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## Peterf (Oct 18, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> > We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals.   The latter come with rather too much religious baggage.     And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture.
> ...



Very badly.  But I am not a Soviet era - or any other era - communist.


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## Peterf (Oct 18, 2013)

Nox said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> > We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals.   The latter come with rather too much religious baggage.     And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture.    Don't you think that honesty in commercial transactions, for example, is desirable everywhere?  And is not government with the consent of the governed a universal good?
> ...



No one in Sweden has ever married his own daughter.  There have men who raped their daughter and have been punished for it - though imo not severely enough. 

I am honest - honestly - not because of some imaginary deity but because I despise dishonesty.    If I stole even a low value item from a store my self-respect would suffer.   Feeling reasonably good about oneself is pleasant.    The saying   "Virtue is its own reward" has much to commend it.


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## GHook93 (Oct 18, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Iran lawmakers pass bill allowing men to marry adopted daughters | World news | theguardian.com
> 
> "Parliamentarians in Iran have passed a bill to protect the rights of children which includes a clause that allows a man to marry his adopted daughter and while she is as young as 13 years.
> 
> ...



Come on now. Once wife #1 gets old and ugly, then need to adopt and marry and 2nd and 3rd wife!


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## GHook93 (Oct 18, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> *Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn??  ..  *



First he is a professed atheist and second, he is a sick fuck!


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## irosie91 (Oct 18, 2013)

sambino510 said:


> As a general reply to everyone who has criticized my posts, I'll say this. Never would I try to make excuses for people that do horrible things to others. That is not my intention, and has never been my intention. I'm just saying that when you get down to the nuts and bolts, many societies in this world aren't necessarily on the moral high ground.
> 
> First off, I agree with pretty much everything you've all said, in terms of what is fairly commonly taught in madrassas and mosques and that some of the practices, such as cutting off limbs and the like, are deplorable.
> 
> ...





    Strange as it may seem I do agree with your point that there it is not a good idea 
for the  USA to try to impose  "democracy" on muslim societies.       I did not figure 
it out myself.     I have it from  people who have escaped the filth of shariah----my own 
husband is one-----but I also have it from other escapees.  -----christian,  hindu,  and 
jewish.     AND.... I have it from muslims.     Islamic society is simply not receptive 
to  western style democracy       Islamic ideology is   "UTOPIAN"-----the teaching is---
SOCIETIES RULED BY SHARIAH LAW ARE IDEAL        on the same level that  communists 
teach that  communist societies are ideal.   For muslims this concept is   RELIGION.----it 
is an ABSOLUTE BELIEF -    

as to your notion of combatting evil with  "good"      ---well---that is the "BUSH"  concept 
in his silly notion of combatting the evils of  SADDAAM HUSSEIN with   "democracy"----
   it don't work         The way to combat evil is to erect a  BARRIER  between us and them.


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## Nox (Oct 18, 2013)

Peterf said:


> No one in Sweden has ever married his own daughter.  There have men who raped their daughter and have been punished for it - though imo not severely enough.
> 
> I am honest - honestly - not because of some imaginary deity but because I despise dishonesty.    If I stole even a low value item from a store my self-respect would suffer.   Feeling reasonably good about oneself is pleasant.    The saying   "Virtue is its own reward" has much to commend it.



I have been in Sweden and I saw this people : ) I didnt read it from newspaper . Baltic states are considered as most free countries of the world and correspondingly they're the most perverted countries of the world : )

You will behave honest because you will think that if the same thing was done to you , you would not like it . But still this is not an obstance , you will always want to behave in accordance with your own interests and sometimes cheating people will work for you ,  this is not moral , this is just your instinct . Maybe you wont stole it from store , but you're gonna it put your pocket when you see it in the middle of the pavement . A believer will think that this is not the true way and going to deliver it to the police station : )

This is not because of actually believer want to steal it but he/she is afraid of God . This is because of they has self-developed themselves in this way , beucase maybe stealing it will provide short-term benefits but will bring long-term damage .


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## Sunshine (Oct 18, 2013)

First cousins can marry in these states, and they call us 'inbred' in KY:


Cousin marriage legal

Alabama

Alaska

California

Colorado

Connecticut

District of Columbia

Florida

Georgia

Hawaii

Maryland

Massachusetts

New Jersey

New Mexico

New York

North Carolina* 

Rhode Island

South Carolina

Tennessee

Vermont

Virginia

State Laws Regarding Marriages Between First Cousins


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## GHook93 (Oct 18, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say he's more of a director than an actor, and the fact he's Jewish is irrelevant, but I would argue that yes, that is a very similar case. And there are many cases of Americans getting married to questionable people, whether family members or otherwise.
> ...



Are you kidding? He was VILIFIED in the media when it happened! His acting career took a HUGE hit!

Get a clue!


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## GHook93 (Oct 18, 2013)

Indofred said:


> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it's always a nuisance when people ruin biased, one-sided threads with "facts".
> ...



Oh poor Muslims, you get called out for raping and killing your daughters in the name of your demonic cult, how bad of us!

Again, radical Islam is NOT the problem, Islam itself is the problem!


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## Sunni Man (Oct 18, 2013)

GHook93 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > sambino510 said:
> ...


And yet he has a new movie coming out called "Magic in the Moonlight".

Like I said, jews in America can get away with most anything..........


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## irosie91 (Oct 18, 2013)

sunni man said:


> ghook93 said:
> 
> 
> > sunni man said:
> ...




  right, sunni habibi-----it is the will of allah!!!!!!!!


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## bianco (Oct 18, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Actually, the most upsetting sentence in the entire article, IMO, was this one:  "Execution of juvenile offenders in Iran has also been in spotlight in recent years amid confusion between the age of majority  when minors cease to be legally considered children  and the *minimum age of criminal responsibility, which is 15 for boys and nine for girls* under Iranian law.




Sexist too.


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## TheBarber (Oct 31, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Parliamentarians in Iran have passed a bill to protect the rights of children which includes a clause that allows a man to marry his adopted daughter and while she is as young as 13 years.
> 
> Activists have expressed alarm that the bill, approved by parliament on Sunday, opens the door for the caretaker of a family to marry his or her adopted child if a court rules it is in the interests of the individual child.
> 
> ...



It's called the Woody Allen law.


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