# Our broken education system.



## LilOlLady (Jun 17, 2012)

*OUR BROKEN EDUCATION SYSTEM.*

Is the reason we do not have enough educated Americans to fill jobs in science, engineering and math, etc. If we fix the education system by making college more affordable instead of cutting services and classes and raising tuitions and three year instead of four years degrees, we will have more than enough college graduates to fill those jobs. And cut high school to 10th grade instead or 12th. The extra two years is a waste of time and money. My son got his high school diploma in two years and went on to college and got his degree in business management and went to work of AT&T and make over $130,000 a year and can retire when he is 55. Instead we think we can fill those jobs by educating children of Illegal Aliens or importing workers. Results in holding American children back.

If we spent the money we spend on providing education, healthcare, social services and incarcerations, etc for Illegal Aliens  and their children we could use it to educate our own at no cost to them and invest in their future and the future of this country. What do the bible say about &#8220;taking care of your own?&#8221; 1Tim. 5;8.  Obama do not believe American children are bright and smart enough or worthy of spending money on their education. Our children deserve the best because they are our future. 

When our economy went bad, how many Americans packed up their families and left the country? How many Illegal Aliens packed up their families and went back to Mexico? The same Mexico they ran away from? For a better life?

Obama should run for president of Mexico. He have the right mind set.

The first thing to do to fix our broken education is to pull out all non citizens or make the pay like Catholic and private schools pay. Or better yet sent the billl to President Calderone.


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## The T (Jun 17, 2012)

You mean out SUBJEGATED Education system...

It's more important to have personal esteem than responsibility for one's own future in the Statist mindset. be good workers...and good subjects...and that's it.

OWS mean anything?

Young people are livid seeing that they have been lied to...

Everyone gets a trophy...NO score is kept...

The real world looms LARGE. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcDt70HOq-c"]Yes-Shock to the System - YouTube[/ame]


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## Katzndogz (Jun 17, 2012)

The educational system is broken and cannot be fixed.  Starve it to death by denying it funding and support private schools or homeschooling.


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## Moonglow (Jun 17, 2012)

that's a good laugh, repubs cut education the first thing during an economic downturn.

Just cause you get a degree does not guarantee you a job. 
and there is billions in helping all children develope literacy in the USA.
These illegals will be paying for college themselves unless. There is no magic fund set up for illeglas to go to college, get a grip.


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## Moonglow (Jun 17, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The educational system is broken and cannot be fixed.  Starve it to death by denying it funding and support private schools or homeschooling.



I don't like you yet i would not starve you to death over ignorance.


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## Moonglow (Jun 17, 2012)

The T said:


> You mean out SUBJEGATED Education system...
> 
> It's more important to have personal esteem than responsibility for one's own future in the Statist mindset. be good workers...and good subjects...and that's it.
> 
> ...



are you mad cause you got no trophy in school?


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## Moonglow (Jun 17, 2012)

check out the numbers on how many college grads there are in this nation that go unemployed cause corporate profits are more important than supporting your nation with jobs and not moving them overseas.
Plus US citizens need to do more than study sports and law.


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## eflatminor (Jun 17, 2012)

LilOlLady said:


> If we fix the education system by making college more affordable...



Only one way to do that:  *competition*.  More government control of education is the antithesis to competition.  

But hey, maybe YOUR politicians have magic beans???


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## California Girl (Jun 17, 2012)

7 posts... 4 from Moonglow. One would have thought he'd be educated enough to use multi-quote and be less verbose. Apparently our system failed.... again.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 17, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> check out the numbers on how many college grads there are in this nation that go unemployed cause corporate profits are more important than supporting your nation with jobs and not moving them overseas.
> Plus US citizens need to do more than study sports and law.



You check out how many college grads with degrees in math or hard science go unemployed.  None.  We have a shortage which is why we have to import so many.   The college grads that are unemployed are liberal arts and social studies grads.  They are unemployable.    They really are unemployable.  They have no skills, they have no real education.   Yet, they imagine that a college degree entitles them to outsized salaries.

We are moving into a place where we not only don't have jobs available, but if we had jobs, we don't have a workforce to perform.


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## Unkotare (Jun 17, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > check out the numbers on how many college grads there are in this nation that go unemployed cause corporate profits are more important than supporting your nation with jobs and not moving them overseas.
> ...




Social studies would be one of the liberal arts, of course. The rest of your post is nonsense as usual. Millions upon millions of people holding degrees in liberal arts are gainfully employed at a minimum. Take a look at the raw numbers of people holding liberal arts degrees vs those with degrees in the sciences. You are too quick to use your little imagination and too slow to actually think about things.


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## starcraftzzz (Jun 17, 2012)

eflatminor said:


> LilOlLady said:
> 
> 
> > If we fix the education system by making college more affordable...
> ...



private/charted schools are worse then public schools that is a fact


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## starcraftzzz (Jun 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Katzndogz said:
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> > Moonglow said:
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i agree


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## eflatminor (Jun 17, 2012)

starcraftzzz said:


> eflatminor said:
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> > LilOlLady said:
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One, you're wrong...again.  Two, charter schools are a FAR CRY from a competitive environment in the affordable K-12 education market.  There is nothing close to a free market of ideas, competitive pressures, consequences of failure, or a reason to be efficient.  The entire market segment is crushed under the tyranny of central planners and their inability to produce what a competitive marketplace gives us.

Lousy results, skyrocketing costs...that's what government controlled education gives you.


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## Unkotare (Jun 17, 2012)

starcraftzzz said:


> eflatminor said:
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> > LilOlLady said:
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Are you trying to combine charter schools with all private schools? That is not accurate.


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## Euro (Jun 18, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Katzndogz said:
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> > Moonglow said:
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## editec (Jun 18, 2012)

Our educational system isn't broken.


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## rdean (Jun 18, 2012)

Republicans are working to make sure it's destroyed.  So they can teach their brand of mysticism in it's place.  Turn the country into a type of Christian Taliban with billionaires in charge.  It's scary.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 18, 2012)

Our educational system was taken over by Progressives and sabotaged. The results are a national disgrace, they practice intellectual pedophilia on our children.

In NYC, for example, 1/3 of High School students drop out, the vast majority of the 2/3 who "Graduate" need remedial education to function at Community College level. That's no accident, that year's of systematic abuse at the hands of people who are looking to create wards of the state (Aka: Democrat voters)

The UFT must be disbanded. The Department of "Education" must be closed. All funds to be vouchered the parents so that parents can decide where to send their kids to school.


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## RoadVirus (Jun 18, 2012)

It doesn't help our education system is run by union a-holes and states like California teach things like "Gay studies".


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## blimpo (Jun 18, 2012)

I love all these -shoot from the hip- solutions. We are a nation of sound bites where rational thinking is becoming a lost art.

The list problems teachers face trying to educate students in the U.S. would bog this forum down to where it wouldn't work. Solutions are few and far between.

A start might be raising kids that can see past the noses on their faces and that there is life beyond texting and cellphones. Most are so out of touch with the real world, they think they are owed a life laying across a chair playing video games all day. Getting them to turn off these contraptions and thinking about their futures would help. Getting them to actually care about becoming educated would make a huge difference.

Rebuilding the family unit, which has collapsed as a vital force of support for kids that desperately need guidance and control. Here, we are paying for the divorces and the live-in boyfriends and girlfriends. What role models we now have for kids. It's ok to 'shack up'. Live for today worry about the future later...


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## eflatminor (Jun 18, 2012)

blimpo said:


> The list problems teachers face trying to educate students in the U.S. would bog this forum down to where it wouldn't work.



Exactly, I agree, which is why NO central planners are capable of running the entire education system, from what's in the text books to how many tater tots are served at lunch.

Competition and free markets on the other hand, do not rely on central planners to make the choices between these "few and far between" solutions.  Thousands of entrepreneurs make decisions that they believe will best serve their students and their families.  You get to choice and the industry get innovation, creativity, and efficiency.  Costs fall and results soar...that is, IF we end the government monopoly of affordable K-12 education.


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 19, 2012)

eflatminor said:


> Only one way to do that:  *competition*.  More government control of education is the antithesis to competition.
> 
> But hey, maybe YOUR politicians have magic beans???



The search for eligible college students is already VERY competitive.  Trust me, I end up having to deal with a larger and larger number of recruiting events and activities each year.


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 19, 2012)

eflatminor said:


> Competition and free markets on the other hand, do not rely on central planners to make the choices between these "few and far between" solutions.  Thousands of entrepreneurs make decisions that they believe will best serve their students and their families.  You get to choice and the industry get innovation, creativity, and efficiency.  Costs fall and results soar...that is, IF we end the government monopoly of affordable K-12 education.



Competition and Free Market principals are not the solution to every problem, and are ill suited to long term projects that require heavy investment before seeing profit.  The United States internet infrastructure is proof of that.

Now, in a market that is large enough, I'd agree that competition is the way to go for education.  Where I'm at now, I'm looking at 4 different private schools for my son when he starts Kindergarten in a year, plus a public school.  Competition has compelled innovation where I am at.

However, when I was a kid I grew up in a pretty rural small town.  There simply wouldn't have been a market for even 1 school.  Handing the responsibility for education off the Free Market forces would have resulted in a single massive school serving everyone in about a 2 hour drive's radius, a horrible solution.

If you don't believe this, check out the hospital situation in small rural areas.  In a big city, you may have 4-5 choices in town.  In the backwoods, you're lucky if there's a hospital within an hour's drive and typically it's only there as it is a state funded institution.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 19, 2012)

How did Lorenzo de' Medici do it without the UFT?

How?


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## eflatminor (Jun 19, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > Only one way to do that:  *competition*.  More government control of education is the antithesis to competition.
> ...



I'm sure it is.  Don't doubt that.  Of course, that has nothing to do with the failure of government's monopolization of K-12, which is severely lacking anything resembling competition.


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## eflatminor (Jun 19, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > Competition and free markets on the other hand, do not rely on central planners to make the choices between these "few and far between" solutions.  Thousands of entrepreneurs make decisions that they believe will best serve their students and their families.  You get to choice and the industry get innovation, creativity, and efficiency.  Costs fall and results soar...that is, IF we end the government monopoly of affordable K-12 education.
> ...



Tell that to the thousands of families that lost their businesses along Route 66 after the interstate highway system brought us a McDonald's every seven miles.  Wonderful.



> Now, in a market that is large enough, I'd agree that competition is the way to go for education.  Where I'm at now, I'm looking at 4 different private schools for my son when he starts Kindergarten in a year, plus a public school.  Competition has compelled innovation where I am at.



There has always been K-12 competition for those that can afford a private education.  Not the case for affordable education.



> However, when I was a kid I grew up in a pretty rural small town.  There simply wouldn't have been a market for even 1 school.  Handing the responsibility for education off the Free Market forces would have resulted in a single massive school serving everyone in about a 2 hour drive's radius, a horrible solution.



Not necessarily true.  In fact, highly unlikely.  In a free market, even in a small town, there could be all kinds of schools, from small groups to a one-size-fits-all approach.  Either way, it would be actual educational customers choosing, not some central planner.



> If you don't believe this, check out the hospital situation in small rural areas.  In a big city, you may have 4-5 choices in town.  In the backwoods, you're lucky if there's a hospital within an hour's drive and typically it's only there as it is a state funded institution.



I'm sorry, but did you just reference the healthcare industry as an example of how free markets respond?  Really?

Bottom line, Carolyn Lockhead got it right:

"Public educators, like Soviet farmers, lack any incentive to produce results, innovate, to be efficient, to make the kinds of of difficult changes that private firms operating in a competitive market must make to survive."


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## signelect (Jun 19, 2012)

Too many realte education to spending, both sides have been throwing money at it for years and it continues to decline.  Parents do give a S### they think it is not their responsibility that they children learn to read and write and learn the difference between right and wrong.  They think they can buy it.  We rank last in Texas and our country ranks about 25th in the world.  Money won't fix this until we start cariing.  Demand that your child behaves in school instead of threating to sue the teacher for trying to get them to pay attention instead of bullng the kid next to them that can actually read.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 19, 2012)

eflatminor said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > eflatminor said:
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*"Public educators, like Soviet farmers, lack any incentive to produce results, innovate, to be efficient, to make the kinds of of difficult changes that private firms operating in a competitive market must make to survive."*

There's a good reason too, because public educators and Soviet farmers all work for the same people


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## regent (Jun 19, 2012)

America's schools are still pretty much controlled by states and local school districts. One of the big changes in education came about in the Fifties, the cry was "keep em in school, we don't want em on the streets causing trouble. The school I attended graduated about 25% of the student body, and that 25% was probably fairly competent. I, like all in my group, dropped after the ninth grade. 
With pressure on to keep em in school, things changed, social promotions came into the picture, lower standards, easier grades, pleas were made to kids to stay in school, text books became easier, special classes created with less students. Of course with less students in the special classes the regular classes had to take more students. So for the less able student small classes and the regular large classes.   
We lowered the drop-out rate but at what cost? But keeping em in school is just one of the many many school problems. But now the Republicans have a really simple solution: get rid of unions, and then get rid of tenure and bingo our educational problems are over. Sort of like advocating getting rid of the AMA and then another bingo and our medical problems are solved.


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 19, 2012)

eflatminor said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
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> > eflatminor said:
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Your answer has nothing to do with mine.  The US Internet infrastructure is the laughing stock of the developed nations.  There are still places in the USA where the only available internet access is via dial up.  That is one of the many things killing our economy.  More and more services, jobs, and sales are internet driven, and yet we have folks that can't access it.

Why is this?

Our internet infrastructure was built by free market forces and NOT centrally planned.  As such it is cobbled together and fails to support whole communities.

There absolutely is a place for Government planning.

And as for the Interstate, I much prefer it to traveling via US XX roads across nation.  Should I feel bad for the businesses that failed to adapt?  Mother of God, we must bail out the Pony Express!



> There has always been K-12 competition for those that can afford a private education.  Not the case for affordable education.



I don't see where privatizing education would make it affordable for all.  If anything, it would pretty much ensure that poor folks stayed poor as education is the absolute best method for social advancement.  Without a way to get the kids who absolutely can't afford it into a good private school, 100% privatization would never work.



> > However, when I was a kid I grew up in a pretty rural small town.  There simply wouldn't have been a market for even 1 school.  Handing the responsibility for education off the Free Market forces would have resulted in a single massive school serving everyone in about a 2 hour drive's radius, a horrible solution.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily true.  In fact, highly unlikely.  In a free market, even in a small town, there could be all kinds of schools, from small groups to a one-size-fits-all approach.  Either way, it would be actual educational customers choosing, not some central planner.



No.  There won't be.  As it is in small towns you're lucky to have more than one mechanic, vet, pharmacy, etc.  You have either never lived in a truly small town or are just being an ideologue.

I agree given a big enough market and a way to pay for the education of the poor (vouchers) privatization would work, but ask anyone in a small town about the realities of free market competition in a small economy and they'll laugh.  Because there is no competition to really drive a free market economy.



> > If you don't believe this, check out the hospital situation in small rural areas.  In a big city, you may have 4-5 choices in town.  In the backwoods, you're lucky if there's a hospital within an hour's drive and typically it's only there as it is a state funded institution.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but did you just reference the healthcare industry as an example of how free markets respond?  Really?



Actually, yes.  The reason I mentioned it is because the private hospitals simply DO NOT EXIST without a potentially large market to support them.  At this point, small towns are actively pursuing medical students and advertising for "Medical Mission" teams because they can not get a family doctor to open a practice within these small communities.  The hospitals that do exist in the rural areas do so because of central planning.  Otherwise, nothing.



> Bottom line, Carolyn Lockhead got it right:
> 
> "Public educators, like Soviet farmers, lack any incentive to produce results, innovate, to be efficient, to make the kinds of of difficult changes that private firms operating in a competitive market must make to survive."


Spoken like someone that is completely clueless.

Teachers have to undergo continuing education and actively seek graduate credits to qualify for raises and promotion.  School boards can and do add new requirements to the job all the time.  School boards are constantly adopting new technology that teachers do have to spend time mastering.

And don't blather on about "but tenure", because a teacher absolutely can be fired even if they have tenure, and are.  Tenure isn't complete job security, it's access to an appeals process so you can defend your job performance.


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## eflatminor (Jun 19, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> eflatminor said:
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> > Dr.Traveler said:
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Overall, I could not disagree with just about everything you've written here.  You sound just like a nanny state sheeple looking for a dear leader with magic beans.  Good luck.

Specifically, you say America's lack of access to the internet is what is killing the economy.  Hard to respond without rolling eyes and mumbles of "Is he serious?".  Anyway, feel free to back up your claim with some verifiable proof.  

Glad to hear about your love of the interstate.  After all, what are thousands of businesses and jobs compared to your convenience.  That there is NO authority in the Constitution for building roads means little.  Certainly, when the next central planner comes along with a big idea that's against the law, you'll not raise a fuss at all...

Regarding private education, if you want to make a case for giving money to poor families in order to pay for education, fine.  But the idea that government should RUN education is ridiculous, as our piss poor results, skyrocketing costs, lack of innovation, efficiency and choice prove.  But hey, maybe YOUR central planners has those magic beans, eh?


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## blimpo (Jun 19, 2012)

regent said:


> America's schools are still pretty much controlled by states and local school districts. One of the big changes in education came about in the Fifties, the cry was "keep em in school, we don't want em on the streets causing trouble. The school I attended graduated about 25% of the student body, and that 25% was probably fairly competent. I, like all in my group, dropped after the ninth grade.
> With pressure on to keep em in school, things changed, social promotions came into the picture, lower standards, easier grades, pleas were made to kids to stay in school, text books became easier, special classes created with less students. Of course with less students in the special classes the regular classes had to take more students. So for the less able student small classes and the regular large classes.
> We lowered the drop-out rate but at what cost? But keeping em in school is just one of the many many school problems. But now the Republicans have a really simple solution: get rid of unions, and then get rid of tenure and bingo our educational problems are over. Sort of like advocating getting rid of the AMA and then another bingo and our medical problems are solved.




You have done a great job of describing the major changes in education.

Also, all the high stakes testing forces all energy on the bottom feeders leaving the upper students with little to do as the others try to catch up.


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## Unkotare (Jun 20, 2012)

Whining about high-stakes testing is just ridiculous.


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## Douger (Jun 20, 2012)

Maybe a little segregation is the order of the day ?


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## editec (Jun 20, 2012)

We do not have AN educational system, we have over 15,000 EDucational systems in this nation.

Some of the are broken.

Some of them never worked in the first place.

Some of them are doing just fine, thank you very much.


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 20, 2012)

@eflatminor:  learn to read.  The screwed up Internet infrastructure is one of the reasons jobs are going overseas and businesses are finding themselves unable to reach larger customer bases.  I never said it was the only reason the economy is stuck in recession, but it is one of the factors.

Second:  the Constitution specifically provides for roads and projects to provide for the common defense.  Since the interstate was organized under Ike to facilitate quick military transport, the interstate system is entirely Constitutional.  

Last:  education is a State enumerated power and should absolutely be left to the States.  You're the one who keeps inserting central planners into this.


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## squeeze berry (Jun 20, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Whining about high-stakes testing is just ridiculous.



Blimpo isn't whining.Blimpo is telling it as it is.

The prolbem with our public education is ..............  drum roll

*unrealistic expectations.* 

Every president since Kennedy has banged the " university for all " drum. 

Public education worked quite well during my parents time.

What changed?

1. all students are expected to graduate and not drop out until age 18
2. all students go on to a 4 year college
3. all students are capable of high achievement
4. if students don't achieve at the highest level it's the fault of bad teachers, unions, racism, classism, sexism or lack of school choice
5. unrealistic  laws and unfunded mandates from the federal and state govts.
6. litigation gone wild
7. parents playing lawyer for their child, lack of parental and student responsibility
8. having to educate everyone no matter how low their ability/ motivation or disruptiveness


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## eflatminor (Jun 20, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> @eflatminor:  learn to read.  The screwed up Internet infrastructure is one of the reasons jobs are going overseas and businesses are finding themselves unable to reach larger customer bases.  I never said it was the only reason the economy is stuck in recession, but it is one of the factors.



Ah, yet another one that can't resist childish name calling.  So typical.  In any case, I say you're wrong that internet access is killing the economy.  And by the way, the economy is no longer in recession...unless of course it's me that just can't read...



> Second:  the Constitution specifically provides for roads and projects to provide for the common defense.  Since the interstate was organized under Ike to facilitate quick military transport, the interstate system is entirely Constitutional.



Everyone knows how they shoved the interstate highway though.  And my how the sheeple believed them, that this was how we were going to transport military equipment across the country.  That interstate highway also goes through Hawaii.  A lot of tanks making their way from Iowa to Honolulu?  Good grief!  As though it had nothing to do with Detroit's desire to instill a car culture in this country, something you Lefties are constantly bitching about.  Oh the irony!  Of course in reality, the military uses airplanes to transport equipment across the country, which was always going to be the case, so let's not bullshit anyone about what the interstate highway was really all about. 



> Last: education is a State enumerated power and should absolutely be left to the States. You're the one who keeps inserting central planners into this.



No, the federal government keeps inserting themselves into this.  The feds confiscate ungodly amounts of taxpayer money, run it through DC buracracies, then dole it out to state schools with strings attached.  And isn't that working out just beautifully!  

Central planners pal are at every level of government, from the top of the pile in Washington, to mayors that are just sure they know what's best for everyone in 'their' city.  Heck, you talk like a central planner...perhaps someone that really wanted to be a hall monitor in grade school, still really pissed off you weren't chosen to tell others what to do.

Sad.


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 20, 2012)

You really do know absolutely zero about the interstate system do you?  I mean just zero. Zilch. Nada.

You know of course the interstate system has designated sections that can serve as emergency landing strips to facilitate emergency military or disaster support, right?  You do realize the military does use the system for transit between local bases, right?

One day you'll grow up and realize that yes, there actually is a place for Government planning.  Till then feel free to move to Somalia and escape all that intrusive central planning.


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## eflatminor (Jun 20, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> You really do know absolutely zero about the interstate system do you?  I mean just zero. Zilch. Nada.
> 
> You know of course the interstate system has designated sections that can serve as emergency landing strips to facilitate emergency military or disaster support, right?  You do realize the military does use the system for transit between local bases, right?
> 
> One day you'll grow up and realize that yes, there actually is a place for Government planning.  Till then feel free to move to Somalia and escape all that intrusive central planning.



And the last time those "emergency landing strips" have been used over the last 60 years?  Yea, didn't think so.  

Of course there is a place for government.  It's right there in the enumerated powers of the Constitution.  This thread is about education, so please, point out where in that document the federal government has any authority to meddling in education.

Somalia?  What a tired old bullshit argument!  Anyone that supports the idea of living by the law of the land is an anarchist!  What crap.


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## blimpo (Jun 20, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Whining about high-stakes testing is just ridiculous.




I agree, unless you must deal with it on a daily basis. 

I do.

Do you?


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## blimpo (Jun 20, 2012)

eflatminor said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > You really do know absolutely zero about the interstate system do you?  I mean just zero. Zilch. Nada.
> ...




The Constitution says nothing about education, only the general statement about for the good and welfare of the citizens in the Preamble; that's as close as it gets.

Have no fear, states are in contol of their own education and they've been doing a great job these last 30 years screwing it up as much or more than Washington.

We have legislatures full of insurance, car, and real estate agents that think because they are good at shaking hands, that qualifies then as experts about all areas of education.

The people hired to do the job (teaching), the people doing the job, and the people retired from the job are seldom asked or consulted about how to do the job. Makes sense to me...not..


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## regent (Jun 20, 2012)

If the states want the national government to stay out of their educational domain they have to stop taking federal money. The states still would have to abide by the Constitution, however. We should all be aware that the first national board of education was established in 1867 and the government administers and is responsible for, many many schools throughout the nation. 
I wonder what would a perfect school look like to some, perhaps one class that teaches evolution and in the next classroom creation is taught and in the third classroom the stork theory is taught. With that approach allmost all parents would be satisfied with schools, particulary if the parents get to decide their child's grade.


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## Unkotare (Jun 20, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Whining about high-stakes testing is just ridiculous.
> ...





I used to. You know who deals with it on a daily basis? Millions and millions of kids in many of those countries that are always held up as doing so much better than us educationally.


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## squeeze berry (Jun 20, 2012)

regent said:


> If the states want the national government to stay out of their educational domain they have to stop taking federal money. The states still would have to abide by the Constitution, however. We should all be aware that the first national board of education was established in 1867 and the government administers and is responsible for, many many schools throughout the nation.
> I wonder what would a perfect school look like to some, perhaps one class that teaches evolution and in the next classroom creation is taught and in the third classroom the stork theory is taught. With that approach allmost all parents would be satisfied with schools, particulary if the parents get to decide their child's grade.



if the federal govt. would stop taking money from the 50 states taxpayers that would work.


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## regent (Jun 20, 2012)

squeeze berry said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > If the states want the national government to stay out of their educational domain they have to stop taking federal money. The states still would have to abide by the Constitution, however. We should all be aware that the first national board of education was established in 1867 and the government administers and is responsible for, many many schools throughout the nation.
> ...



The framers gave both the national government and the state governments the power to tax, if the states are not up to using their power to tax, that's their decision. Of course we could go back to the Articles where only the states had the taxing power.


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 20, 2012)

eflatminor said:


> Of course there is a place for government.  It's right there in the enumerated powers of the Constitution.  This thread is about education, so please, point out where in that document the federal government has any authority to meddling in education.



Education is an enumerated power reserved for the States.  I don't know how to be anymore clear on my position than that.

I think we're probably more in agreement than you think.  I think we both agree Federal involvement in education is generally a bad idea.  I think we both agree that free market competition will improve schools (though I have the caveat it MAY not work in very small markets).

The bone I'm picking is that the old lie that "Anything done by government can be done better by the free market."  That's just patently untrue.  It's part of why the Articles failed.  For actions that aren't likely to be profitable, you do need government intervention.

On the interstate thing:  I haven't used my fire extinguisher since I bought my house.  I still take it to be recharged and inspected.  Just because the emergency landing areas on the interstate haven't been used doesn't mean it's a bad idea for them to exist.  Sometimes, you just make an investment in the long term.  That's exactly the kind of thing government does better than private industry.


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## Samson (Jun 20, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> ...  Just because the emergency landing areas on the interstate haven't been used doesn't mean it's a bad idea for them to exist.  Sometimes, you just make an investment in the long term.  That's exactly the kind of thing government does better than private industry.



So, are you saying that by supporting the construction of a new High School Football Colusium, it is an "investment in the long term?"

Tell me, is there anything that COULDN'T be considered an investment in the long term? 

Should government buy my toothpaste? What about my shoes?

I'm feeling a bit peckish: How about they buy me a Latte?


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 20, 2012)

Samson said:


> So, are you saying that by supporting the construction of a new High School Football Colusium, it is an "investment in the long term?"
> 
> Tell me, is there anything that COULDN'T be considered an investment in the long term?
> 
> ...



Disaster preparedness is always a good investment.  Your lattes, not so much.

As for investments in Sports facilities, that's a whole other issue.  I generally consider that a waste of funds and a misprioritization.


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## Unkotare (Jun 20, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> As for investments in Sports facilities, that's a whole other issue.  I generally consider that a waste of funds and a misprioritization.





Why?


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## Dr.Traveler (Jun 20, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > As for investments in Sports facilities, that's a whole other issue.  I generally consider that a waste of funds and a misprioritization.
> ...



At the college level, I've seen just stupid amounts of money sunk into athletics.  From a fiscal stand point it often makes sense, but considering the focus of the institution is supposed to be on education, it seems like a case of misprioritization.  Not to mention college level athletics is practically slavery.  For a pittance the school will make millions of a kid who is prohibited from seeing one single cent of that money.  In return coaches will advise them to avoid any class with substance to stay eligible and insure they get a degree that wouldn't get them hired to sell used cars.  It's a damn shame.


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## Unkotare (Jun 21, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



That's a load of bullshit. At the college level, many sports bring in significant amounts of money. Even those sports that don't directly earn much play a part in boosting the school's image among alumni (where a very large part of a school's money comes from). Calling college level athletics "slavery" is stupid and offensive on several levels and you should be ashamed of yourself for indulging in such empty emoting. Show me proof of coaches advising athletes to avoid certain classes if you can. The vast, vast, vast majority of college athletes do not go on to pro sports careers, and the vast majority graduate with a degree in the major of their choosing. You are being misleading, ignorant, and sensationalistic. It's a damn shame you can't show more character.


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## Samson (Jun 21, 2012)

Dr.Traveler said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > So, are you saying that by supporting the construction of a new High School Football Colusium, it is an "investment in the long term?"
> ...



Well,it saddens me to hear how callous you've become toward the "long term" mental health and spiritual well being of us latte drinkers, but you have served to illustrate the point:

An "investment in the long term" is quite subjective.


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## regent (Jun 21, 2012)

The sad thing about sports and universtities is that the university too often gets its noteriety and reputation from sports and not academics. At one time the University of Chicago was a member of the Big Ten and produced the first Heisman winner, and then the head of the university decided that to really be an excellent university it could not do both, so Chicago dropped sports and the Big Ten. 
Was Hutchins right?


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## Unkotare (Jun 21, 2012)

regent said:


> The sad thing about sports and universtities is that the university too often gets its noteriety and reputation from sports and not academics.






Why is that "sad"?


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## blimpo (Jun 21, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> blimpo said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...





And the ones that don't, you forgot to mention:

Millions and millions of kids in those countries that were culled out and sent on a vocational track where their supposedly low test scores are not figured into the the world rankings...


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## Unkotare (Jun 21, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > blimpo said:
> ...





And? What conclusion are you hoping to reach based on that?


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## blimpo (Jun 21, 2012)

That our total population is compared to the best of theirs when we try to rank contries in educational lists.


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## Unkotare (Jun 21, 2012)

blimpo said:


> That our total population is compared to the best of theirs when we try to rank contries in educational lists.




That is an issue about comparing educational systems in general but has nothing specifically to do with high-stakes testing.


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## Samson (Jun 21, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > blimpo said:
> ...



What is a "supposedly low test score?"

In the real world, there is the wheat and the chaff, not "supposedly chaff."

But you are correct in that comparing average test scores of US public school students and those in other countries is ridiculous: Not only might other countries eliminate students from contention (normally true after grade 8), but most other countries have nationalized standard teaching methods that simply do not exist throughout the USA, or even within any State, with the exception of Hawaii, where the state runs the school system.


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## blimpo (Jun 21, 2012)

"Supposedly" means each country determains the cut mark and I'm sure it varies from place to place. There is no absolute standard throughout the world.

Here, all students are considered to be Einsteins. Teachers are the ones blamed for the students' stupidity and ignorance...


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## Unkotare (Jun 21, 2012)

Ah~ someone is making some CYA excuses...


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## blimpo (Jun 22, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Ah~ someone is making some CYA excuses...



What seems excuses to one may be a description of reality to another.

When your job security is tied to the work ethic of a 12 year old reality bites..


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## Unkotare (Jun 22, 2012)

If you don't like your job get another one. Don't waste time bitching about it.


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## bripat9643 (Jun 22, 2012)

starcraftzzz said:


> private/charted schools are worse then public schools that is a fact




You know how forum members can tell something is not a fact?

You posted it.


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## Annie (Jun 22, 2012)

LilOlLady said:


> *OUR BROKEN EDUCATION SYSTEM.*
> 
> Is the reason we do not have enough educated Americans to fill jobs in science, engineering and math, etc. If we fix the education system by making college more affordable instead of cutting services and classes and raising tuitions and three year instead of four years degrees, we will have more than enough college graduates to fill those jobs. And cut high school to 10th grade instead or 12th. The extra two years is a waste of time and money. My son got his high school diploma in two years and went on to college and got his degree in business management and went to work of AT&T and make over $130,000 a year and can retire when he is 55. Instead we think we can fill those jobs by educating children of Illegal Aliens or importing workers. Results in holding American children back.
> 
> ...



Funny thing, many illegal students are beating the pants off of American students. They come from Asia. It's not the illegals that are the problem in public schools, look at the parents and teachers. Look at the costs of providing care for severely physically and mentally damaged children. All those costs are coming from your local taxes, with few dollars provided by state or fed.


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## Unkotare (Jun 22, 2012)

Annie said:


> Look at the costs of providing care for severely physically and mentally damaged children.






What are you trying to say?


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## Samson (Jun 22, 2012)

blimpo said:


> "Supposedly" means each country determains the cut mark and I'm sure it varies from place to place. There is no absolute standard throughout the world.
> 
> Here, all students are considered to be Einsteins. Teachers are the ones blamed for the students' stupidity and ignorance...



Teachers being held accountable for education?


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## blimpo (Jun 24, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> If you don't like your job get another one. Don't waste time bitching about it.



Retired....I have all day every day.

I still have many friends in the trenches. I worry for them.


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## blimpo (Jun 24, 2012)

Samson said:


> blimpo said:
> 
> 
> > "Supposedly" means each country determains the cut mark and I'm sure it varies from place to place. There is no absolute standard throughout the world.
> ...




Students with no accountability for their own education. Can teachers pour it in them?


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## Unkotare (Jun 24, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't like your job get another one. Don't waste time bitching about it.
> ...





If you're retired (so I guess you weren't being honest when you said you "deal with it everyday" huh?) then it's time to stop bitching about your former job. Go have a drink and chase some tail around the senior center.


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## blimpo (Jun 24, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> blimpo said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...





I guess the past 25 years don't count.

When I read lost comments from people that haven't been in a classroom since Nixon was president, yeah I'm going to comment. There is too much ignorance floating around out here about education for me to rest. 

Your comment about the "senior center" is a real classy remark. I'm impressed...


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## Unkotare (Jun 25, 2012)

So just to be clear, when you said you deal with high stakes tests on a daily basis, you were lying. Is that correct?


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## Unkotare (Jun 25, 2012)

blimpo said:


> When I read lost comments from people that haven't been in a classroom since Nixon was president, yeah I'm going to comment. ...





Wow, who was that?


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## blimpo (Jun 25, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> So just to be clear, when you said you deal with high stakes tests on a daily basis, you were lying. Is that correct?




No. I retired at the end of the school year (a month ago).

So far I have missed zero days of school if you want to get technical (for whatever reason, I don't know).

Let me be to the point so we can move on: (as far as test scores and discipline go)

I've breathed the shit
I've eaten the shit
I've dreamed the shit
I've cussed the shit
I've suffered because of the shit

But as of this upcoming opening day in August- 
I won't have to deal with the shit


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## Unkotare (Jun 25, 2012)

Just to be clear: You lied in your previous post because you thought it would legitimize your position.


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## blimpo (Jun 27, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Just to be clear: You lied in your previous post because you thought it would legitimize your position.





You're funny.

You're not on here to debate anything. You must have a bone to pick.

Until school starts in August I am a paid employee.

I deal with the stuff daily, until school is out (ah, that's when students leave for the summer) and NO ONE deals with the shit until August. Until school starts I'm just like any other teacher during June and July.

Stop deflecting from the real source of discussion....


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## jack113 (Jun 27, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The educational system is broken and cannot be fixed.  Starve it to death by denying it funding and support private schools or homeschooling.
> ...



The education system can be easily fixed by taking the politicians out of the classroom.


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > blimpo said:
> ...



I'm not sure what you're saying: Teachers can only teach good students?



Sorry, but the public, much less their offspirng, is not accountable. Period.


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > blimpo said:
> ...



I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Unk to make classy remarks.

The blather that he posts here max's out his capacity to communicate: He has never taught public school, so whatever branch upon which he's been swinging is his only point of reference.


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## Unkotare (Jun 27, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Just to be clear: You lied in your previous post because you thought it would legitimize your position.
> ...




So, is the problem that you are dishonest, or that you do not understand English grammar?


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## blimpo (Jun 30, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> blimpo said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...





Your meds not working?


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## Unkotare (Jun 30, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > blimpo said:
> ...




All set. Now, are you ready to try and be honest for a change?


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## squeeze berry (Jul 1, 2012)

Samson said:


> blimpo said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



teachers are accountable to raise IQ?


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## jack113 (Jul 2, 2012)

People still play up to politically correct politics and infect the education system with their hype and the children are always the losers. When was the last time teachers were given a voice in the teaching debate politicians use for their dirty campaigns? Teachers should not be used as a scape goat for dark ages politicians. Education is teaching fact not religious belief.


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## Unkotare (Jul 2, 2012)

jack113 said:


> People still play up to politically correct politics and infect the education system with their hype and the children are always the losers. When was the last time teachers were given a voice in the teaching debate politicians use for their dirty campaigns? Teachers should not be used as a scape goat for dark ages politicians. Education is teaching fact not religious belief.



Was there a point in there somewhere?


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## chenchenPeter (Jul 18, 2012)

I aggre with you ...HAHA...Good luck!! My dear friends..


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## jack113 (Jul 19, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> jack113 said:
> 
> 
> > People still play up to politically correct politics and infect the education system with their hype and the children are always the losers. When was the last time teachers were given a voice in the teaching debate politicians use for their dirty campaigns? Teachers should not be used as a scape goat for dark ages politicians. Education is teaching fact not religious belief.
> ...



Not for an uneducated buffoon. You support for turning out uneducated idiots is as anti American as any fascist could get. Apparently you are one of the many that have been dumbed down  by the political fascists that think education is no longer needed because they need to keep the sheep in line.


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## Unkotare (Jul 19, 2012)

Calm down, take a deep breath, and try to make an actual point (hint: just repeating words you clearly don't understand and making baseless accusations is not a 'point').


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## jack113 (Jul 19, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Calm down, take a deep breath, and try to make an actual point (hint: just repeating words you clearly don't understand and making baseless accusations is not a 'point').



Your uneducated comments have no value to education or anything else. Want religion go to church.


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## Unkotare (Jul 19, 2012)

jack113 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Calm down, take a deep breath, and try to make an actual point (hint: just repeating words you clearly don't understand and making baseless accusations is not a 'point').
> ...





Mr. Off,

Where have I mentioned religion, and upon what do you base this repeated claim that I am "uneducated"? Just curious, Mr. Off.


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## GHook93 (Jul 19, 2012)

Items for the Fix Education Wish List:
(1) End Tenure: Tenure only protects bad teachers. Good teachers are protected by what all good employees are protected by - PRODUCING RESULTS. Too many times teachers work towards tenure, then take time off, quit learning themselves, or F-up and go to the rubber room on full pay for years!

(2) Pensions Need to Go: First, the private sector that fronts the bill do not have them. Second, they are never funded, therefore most of the $$$$ set aside for education goes to retired teachers and not the schools. Take Cook County (the most populated county in the midwest). 60% of the tax dollars earmarked for education goes to paying retired teachers! Imagine if even half of that went to the schools. We could reduce class size, add school programs and god forbide hirer teachers. Make adjustments to current retirees, sorry, but there was injustices that must be changed. Second, have a cut off and move new and other teachers into SS and individual retirement plans (401k & IRA).

(3) No more free healthcare: Walker made slight adjusts (still not to the contributions the private sector makes) to teachers paying a portion of their health insurance costs and money became available. This is a no brainer!

(4) Make State Public Unions like Federal PU: Meaning no collective bargaining rights!

(5) More school choice!

(6) Get the Fed out of lower education, AND move them to secondary education!

(7) Raises on MERIT! Length of service can and should be a consideration, but it shouldn't be the determing force.

(8) Take Bullying Seriously: Meaning have consequences! I wasn't as nice to people as I should have. I picked out victims every year and really has ZERO consequences for my actions. I say start the year with daylong seminars on bullying! Hit on the consequences if you bully! ENFORCE the consequences! I hope karma doesn't come back to hit me through my kids, but I made many kids lives hell when I was young. Not to say I was the victim in the matter, but I have extreme amount of regret for my actions!


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## blimpo (Jul 19, 2012)

GHook93 said:


> Items for the Fix Education Wish List:
> (1) End Tenure: Tenure only protects bad teachers. Good teachers are protected by what all good employees are protected by - PRODUCING RESULTS. Too many times teachers work towards tenure, then take time off, quit learning themselves, or F-up and go to the rubber room on full pay for years!
> 
> (2) Pensions Need to Go: First, the private sector that fronts the bill do not have them. Second, they are never funded, therefore most of the $$$$ set aside for education goes to retired teachers and not the schools. Take Cook County (the most populated county in the midwest). 60% of the tax dollars earmarked for education goes to paying retired teachers! Imagine if even half of that went to the schools. We could reduce class size, add school programs and god forbide hirer teachers. Make adjustments to current retirees, sorry, but there was injustices that must be changed. Second, have a cut off and move new and other teachers into SS and individual retirement plans (401k & IRA).
> ...




Free healthcare? I pay about $800 a month for a single policy. The school corporation chips in about $150. 
Factory workers in a Ford plant have it better than this...


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## Unkotare (Jul 19, 2012)

Is that a different amount now that you are retired and _no longer a teacher_?


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## GHook93 (Jul 19, 2012)

blimpo said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Items for the Fix Education Wish List:
> ...



You are you trying to crap! I know a ton of teachers in Chicagoland area, then pay very little for top notch healthcare. I think it should be equivalent to the private sector (or even a little better)!


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## Katzndogz (Jul 19, 2012)

There really is only one answer and that's to find a way to make education important to families and children.  Right now, education is something done to students, they have no participation in the process.   The parents have no participation in the process.  The idea is "educate me, I dare you to try".   Learning is done to children against a very stubborn will determined to embrace ignorance.  No amoount of money, or superlative teachers will overcome a population of students who are so determined to not learn anything.


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## regent (Jul 19, 2012)

The big question, if we pay teachers for merit, and we should, who defines what merit is, and who decides the teacher meets the merit criteria?


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## Unkotare (Jul 19, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> There really is only one answer and that's to find a way to make education important to families and children.  Right now, education is something done to students, they have no participation in the process.   The parents have no participation in the process. .





Says who?


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## jack113 (Jul 20, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> jack113 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Your comments show your lack of any vision or intelligent comment regarding education. Your troll remarks just show your support for brain dead ideology.


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## squeeze berry (Jul 20, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > There really is only one answer and that's to find a way to make education important to families and children.  Right now, education is something done to students, they have no participation in the process.   The parents have no participation in the process. .
> ...




yea, can you belive that

parents are constantly telling me how to do my job and giving me orders.

same with the students


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## Katzndogz (Jul 20, 2012)

squeeze berry said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



Orders to do what?   To really crack down on non performing students or to make things easier for them.


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## jack113 (Jul 20, 2012)

squeeze berry said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



Parents need to be involved in their children's education and politicians need to stop using teachers as scapegoats.

Anyone that does not think parents have a right to be involved with education is in the wrong business and needs to move on. To many political hypocrites and religious freaks involved in destroying the education system. Want religion go to church.


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## squeeze berry (Jul 20, 2012)

jack113 said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



sometimes parents get involved for the wrong reasons. 

Browbeating teachers into giving their kids higher grades is one of them. 
scapegoating the teacher ifor their child's lack of progess is another

and 

browbeating the teacher to have them assume their parental responsibilities 

once I had a mother of a downs child drop her kid off at my room an hour and a half early so she could run errands. Free babysitting............


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## jack113 (Jul 20, 2012)

squeeze berry said:


> jack113 said:
> 
> 
> > squeeze berry said:
> ...



Yes I know their are parents that abuse the education system and thing their children should be allowed to run out of control but it is a very small majority and most parents want their children educated. 

You cannot educate without control of the students and teachers should not be made scape goats by politicians and the only way to solve these things is for parents to be involved with their children's education.


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## blimpo (Jul 20, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Is that a different amount now that you are retired and _no longer a teacher_?



I pay it all starting in August..


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## Unkotare (Jul 20, 2012)

jack113 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > jack113 said:
> ...




What "ideology" is that, Mr. Off? Why won't you answer direct questions, Mr. Off?


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## Unkotare (Jul 20, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Is that a different amount now that you are retired and _no longer a teacher_?
> ...





You have no health benefits at all in your pension now that you are retired and no longer a teacher?


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## squeeze berry (Jul 20, 2012)

blimpo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Is that a different amount now that you are retired and _no longer a teacher_?
> ...



but you will be making $20K a month in pension like all teachers, right?


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## beagle9 (Jul 20, 2012)

Regardless, the public schools in this nation, have since created a national mindset that is [sic] and it is in a mental state of health that is destructive and unprofitable for our youth now in many states in the nation. The experiment is failing big time, as we are not focused anylonger on being American in everyway in which we all once believed in, so now we have since ended up in a game that has placed Americans in their own nation against groups who are anti-American in everyway possible and/or imaginable, and for whom are now operating in this manor freely within the nation in which they in many ways so claim to hate. Whats even more shocking is that they (these anti-American rebellious groups) have the backing of the federal government who has empowered them over and above an American living within their own nation, and so yes this is shockingly while they (the anti-Americans) are living in an American country, and yet hating her & the Americans all at the same time... Now go and figure that one out ! There is a huge bigger picture involved in all of this, but for some reason people are playing dumb about it all or they have become complicit or scared that they are alone in their Americanism anymore, where as they feel that the calvary will no longer come to their rescue anymore, so now it is doggy dog for them.


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