# In Britain, man afraid of retaliation can't use gun to stay safe...all he did was defend himself....



## 2aguy (Apr 8, 2018)

This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......

Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News


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## JGalt (Apr 8, 2018)

Wow. That's really messed up.


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## bgrouse (Apr 8, 2018)

Can;t believe they arrested him. Should have given him a medal and a gun permit. Just more bullshit from the criminal-loving pieces of shit in power.


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## The Irish Ram (Apr 8, 2018)

We are one step behind Britain unless we wake up and put a stop to the efforts here to remove rights.  This is a UN directive worldwide, just as the Muslim quota for America (under Democratic control) and EU countries were.

And if we don't stop the indoctrination of our children, in our schools, we are a generation away from voting on whichever Constitutional right they have been taught to attack next.
Parents, where the hell are you?  All of our children will be Hoggs if we don't stop the brainwashing, now.


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## TroglocratsRdumb (Apr 8, 2018)

Criminals are an important part of the Democrat Voter base and that is why they want to disarm home owners.


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## theHawk (Apr 8, 2018)

2aguy said:


> This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> 
> Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News



That’s liberalism for ya. Persecute the innocent and empower the criminals.  Regressives abhor the rule of law.


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## miketx (Apr 8, 2018)

theHawk said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> ...


They been doing it here for years. It's why we have so much crime.


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## TheOldSchool (Apr 8, 2018)

2aguy said:


> This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> 
> Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News


He should go get a gun since it's not that hard for him to go get a gun in Britain


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## Dekster (Apr 8, 2018)

2aguy said:


> This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> 
> Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News



He has a knife to protect himself with.  He has already demonstrated that he has the skillset to murder with one.


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## miketx (Apr 8, 2018)

Dekster said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> ...


Troll, self defense is not murder.


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## Tilly (Apr 8, 2018)

Dekster said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> ...


He was in his home with his sick wife up in bed. Of course he had access to a knife being at home.


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## toobfreak (Apr 8, 2018)

2aguy said:


> This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> 
> Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News




THAT IS A COMMON STORY AND OCCURRENCE, and one of the ways, that the guy could not defend himself with a gun, that the Left uses to claim that gun violence is way down, justifying banning guns!  It is all a GREAT LIE and given the choice, most Brits and Aussies wish they had their guns back!


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## toobfreak (Apr 8, 2018)

Dekster said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> ...




Good!  Tell you what----  you pick any knife in the world to defend yourself with then let me come at you with whatever I have.  Let's see how far that knife takes you as they rush you to the hospital to try to save your life.  You'll be dead before they ever get you there, but just remember, had you a better weapon or been better with a knife, you would have had to kill me to survive, then you'd be a MURDERER.  My family is gonna see you get life or until they execute you!


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## JimBowie1958 (Apr 8, 2018)

JGalt said:


> Wow. That's really messed up.


I am surprised the commie UK goobermint has not prosecuted him yet for murdering one of their thugs.


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## miketx (Apr 8, 2018)

Crime soars by 14 per cent: Big rises in robbery, muggings and knife crime, official figures show


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## Tilly (Apr 8, 2018)

toobfreak said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> ...


Gun crime is rising alarmingly in the U.K. - even though they are banned.


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## Tilly (Apr 8, 2018)

JimBowie1958 said:


> JGalt said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. That's really messed up.
> ...


They did consider it.


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## Ridgerunner (Apr 8, 2018)

Dekster said:


> He has a knife to protect himself with. He has already demonstrated that he has the skillset to murder with one.



It is truly amazing how some use words to advance their agenda and manipulate some minds...


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## EvilCat Breath (Apr 8, 2018)

Mayor Khan is going to put an end to self defense with a knife.

London's Mayor Declares Intense New 'Knife Control' Policies To Stop Epidemic Of Stabbings


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## JimBowie1958 (Apr 8, 2018)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Mayor Khan is going to put an end to self defense with a knife.
> 
> London's Mayor Declares Intense New 'Knife Control' Policies To Stop Epidemic Of Stabbings



So now that the UK goobermint is going to ban knives, knife attacks will become a daily occurence in the near future.

roflmao


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## Dekster (Apr 8, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> > He has a knife to protect himself with. He has already demonstrated that he has the skillset to murder with one.
> ...



He wasn't found not guilty of murder


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## ptbw forever (Apr 8, 2018)

Dekster said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> > Dekster said:
> ...


He should have never gone to trial in the first place.


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## Ridgerunner (Apr 8, 2018)

Dekster said:


> He wasn't found not guilty of murder



You don't excel at reading comprehension do you?


Despite initially being arrested on suspicion of murder, Mr Osborn-Brooks has been released and will not face any further action, Scotland Yard has confirmed.


Read more: Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News

Twitter: Metro (@MetroUK) | Twitter | Facebook: Metro


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## ptbw forever (Apr 8, 2018)

Where are all the low IQ Democrats and European cucks to tout Britain and greater Western Europe's pathetic health care system and their brainless gun control laws?


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## JoeB131 (Apr 9, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Can;t believe they arrested him. Should have given him a medal and a gun permit. Just more bullshit from the criminal-loving pieces of shit in power.



UK- 48 gun homicides
US- 11,000 gun homicides

Um, I think they have this figured out.


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## 2aguy (Apr 9, 2018)

Dekster said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> ...




That wasn't murder, that was self defense.


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## 2aguy (Apr 9, 2018)

TheOldSchool said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> ...



It is hard for a law abiding citizen in Britain to get a gun, but it is easy for a criminal to get one, as shown by their increasing rates of gun crime .....


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## 2aguy (Apr 9, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Can;t believe they arrested him. Should have given him a medal and a gun permit. Just more bullshit from the criminal-loving pieces of shit in power.
> ...




Apparently not, since their gun crime rates are going up, not down, and our gun crime rates are going down, not up...

*Britain...banned guns....*

Yorkshire sees highest number of crimes for any county in Britain according to figures

“In particular we’re shocked to see an increase of nearly 30 per cent in weapon possession offences between 2016 and 2017.”

Crimes covered violent and sexual offences, vehicle theft, public order offences, possession of weapons, shoplifting, personal theft, drug crimes, robbery, criminal damage, bicycle thefts and anti-social behaviour.


========

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent. 

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . 


========



Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.

=========



Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years. 

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He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger. 

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Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma. 

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Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012. 

He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns. 

Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”

Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.


*The U.S., 600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense.......*

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## bgrouse (Apr 9, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Can;t believe they arrested him. Should have given him a medal and a gun permit. Just more bullshit from the criminal-loving pieces of shit in power.
> ...


Yeah, they figured out how to get their criminals to commit violent crimes with knives and bats to cut down the population to more manageable levels.


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## JoeB131 (Apr 10, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Yeah, they figured out how to get their criminals to commit violent crimes with knives and bats to cut down the population to more manageable levels.



Okay, let's look at total homicides. 

UK- total homicides - 571

Homicide - Office for National Statistics


US- Total homicides- 17,250

The US murder rate was up again—and Chicago had a lot to do with it

Violent crime overall has gone up by 4.1% nationally. A total of 17,250 people were reported killed in the US in 2016, with the number of murders increasing by about 8.6% in comparison to 2015.

But let's get 2TinyGuy to tell us the British have a problem and we don't.


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## westwall (Apr 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, they figured out how to get their criminals to commit violent crimes with knives and bats to cut down the population to more manageable levels.
> ...








Yes, we have millions of violent third world people living in our country and now that Europe is importing them their gun crime rate, and ALL violent crime rates are increasing.


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## bgrouse (Apr 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, they figured out how to get their criminals to commit violent crimes with knives and bats to cut down the population to more manageable levels.
> ...


I said violent crimes, not homicides. Homicides are generally a tiny percentage of all violent crimes (and an even smaller percentage if you include property crimes like burglary, which also do damage to society).

Besides, around half or most of homicides in the USA are committed by blacks and the USA has a much bigger population thereof, so there's a cause of that.


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## JoeB131 (Apr 11, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> I said violent crimes, not homicides. Homicides are generally a tiny percentage of all violent crimes (and an even smaller percentage if you include property crimes like burglary, which also do damage to society).
> 
> Besides, around half or most of homicides in the USA are committed by blacks and the USA has a much bigger population thereof, so there's a cause of that.



Only a matter of time before the gun nuts bring the racism.


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## westwall (Apr 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > I said violent crimes, not homicides. Homicides are generally a tiny percentage of all violent crimes (and an even smaller percentage if you include property crimes like burglary, which also do damage to society).
> ...







It's not their color, it's their culture.  Learn the difference.  White people, who live in similar places are the same.  Violent.  They resort to violence far faster than first world peoples.  It's not the race, it's the culture.  Pure and simple.


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## JoeB131 (Apr 11, 2018)

westwall said:


> It's not their color, it's their culture. Learn the difference. White people, who live in similar places are the same. Violent. They resort to violence far faster than first world peoples. It's not the race, it's the culture. Pure and simple.



Except that people who live in poverty in other western countries aren't killing each other at the rate we do...

Mostly because they don't have a gun industry flooding the streets with guns.


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## bgrouse (Apr 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > I said violent crimes, not homicides. Homicides are generally a tiny percentage of all violent crimes (and an even smaller percentage if you include property crimes like burglary, which also do damage to society).
> ...


So explain why Switzerland isn't a violent crime war zone despite all their guns.


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## westwall (Apr 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > It's not their color, it's their culture. Learn the difference. White people, who live in similar places are the same. Violent. They resort to violence far faster than first world peoples. It's not the race, it's the culture. Pure and simple.
> ...








Wrong, as usual.  WESTERN COUNTRIES.  Are not as violent as third world countries.  Even when they are poor.


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## bgrouse (Apr 11, 2018)

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


And who tends to live in turd world countries? Turd-colored individuals.


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## JoeB131 (Apr 12, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> So explain why Switzerland isn't a violent crime war zone despite all their guns.



Because their guns are actually regulated.  

They don't let crazy people own them. 

Living with guns the Swiss way

Switzerland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world, but little gun-related street crime - so some opponents of gun control hail it as a place where firearms play a positive role in society. However, Swiss gun culture is unique, and guns are more tightly regulated than many assume.

In 2006, the champion Swiss skier Corrinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were murdered by Corinne's estranged husband, who shot them with his old militia rifle before killing himself.

Since that incident, gun laws concerning army weapons have tightened. Although it is still possible for a former soldier to buy his firearm after he finishes military service, he must provide a justification for keeping the weapon and apply for a permit.

When I meet Mathias, a PhD student and serving officer, at his apartment in a snowy suburb of Zurich, I realise the rules have got stricter than I imagined. Mathias keeps his army pistol in the guest room of his home, in a desk drawer hidden under the printer paper. It is a condition of the interview that I don't give his surname or hint at his address.


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## bgrouse (Apr 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > So explain why Switzerland isn't a violent crime war zone despite all their guns.
> ...


Oh boy, another nonanswer!

Let's try it another way: 

Where are guns more tightly regulated: Britain or Switzerland? And which of the two has the higher violent crime (or if you want, homicide) rate?


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## 2aguy (Apr 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > It's not their color, it's their culture. Learn the difference. White people, who live in similar places are the same. Violent. They resort to violence far faster than first world peoples. It's not the race, it's the culture. Pure and simple.
> ...




Yeah...they are.....


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## 2aguy (Apr 12, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > bgrouse said:
> ...




Norway has more guns, and less violent crime and murder than Britain......


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## 2aguy (Apr 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > So explain why Switzerland isn't a violent crime war zone despite all their guns.
> ...




I always find it funny when you morons talk about people having a permit from the government as if that keeps the owner from taking that gun to a school and murdering children......

They have fully automatic military weapons in their homes...and a very low gun crime rate....it isn't the guns you doofus, it is the culture......nothing keeps one of them from taking that military weapon into a public place and shooting people.....their culture and values do....


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## JoeB131 (Apr 12, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Oh boy, another nonanswer!
> 
> Let's try it another way:
> 
> Where are guns more tightly regulated: Britain or Switzerland? And which of the two has the higher violent crime (or if you want, homicide) rate?



Switzerland is largely rural and has a pretty small population.  

Point is, they aren't the gun nuttery that we have in the US.  You don't get a gun unless they know you can trust you with it... and they STILL have the occassional mass shooting. 

The UK Hasn't had a mass shooting since the 1990's.


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## bgrouse (Apr 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Oh boy, another nonanswer!
> ...


That's why I asked for the violent crime/homicide *rate*, idiot! That controls for population!





> Point is, they aren't the gun nuttery that we have in the US.  You don't get a gun unless they know you can trust you with it... and they STILL have the occassional *mass shooting*.
> 
> The UK Hasn't had a *mass shooting *since the 1990's.


Typical liberal dumbass who doesn't want to look at non-gun-related violent crime (or even homicide). No wait, you don't even want to look at all shootings, just *mass *shootings, a small percentage of even *gun *homicides!

No point in talking to a brainwashed moron like you except to make you look even dumber when you don't even want to try and take the liberal horse blinders off.

Think about it, retard: 

Blacks commit more than 50% of the homicides in the USA despite being a mere 13% of the population!
One of the most dangerous cities in the USA is Camden, which is in New Jersey, one of the worst states for gun owners with the strictest gun laws in the entire country! Camden has a very large black and hispanic population compared to the rest of the country.
The USA has relatively many blacks compared to many (all?) parts of Europe. The UK has far more blacks the Switzerland. Negro rate: *USA > UK > SUI*. The homicide rate is *USA > UK > SUI*. The gun ownership rate _USA > SUI > UK_.
Black-run and black-populated countries pretty much anywhere in the world are mismanaged shitholes more or less without exception. Do you want me to get into the history of Detroit?
I can't wait for your next retarded reply!


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## 2aguy (Apr 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Oh boy, another nonanswer!
> ...



They had one a decade before they banned and confiscated guns, and they have had one a decade since..in fact, they almost had 3 this decade which is an increase...you doofus....


Dumb luck has stopped the 3 latest mass shootings in Britain, not their gun control laws...and the last story in this list....which British gun control law stopped the man with the gun from murdering the children in the nursery?

Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed

A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life. 

*Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year. *

*T*he 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told. 

Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
=======



Here is the updat, the original is below..

Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........

I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?


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British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack

Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.

Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.

As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.

According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.

Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.

The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.

In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”

He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.

====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'


15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.

=======




'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside

Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.

Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.

The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.

He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.


----------



## fncceo (Apr 12, 2018)

Section 3(1) of the UK Criminal Law Act 1967 provides that:

_"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."
_
That includes, deadly force from a firearm.


----------



## westwall (Apr 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Oh boy, another nonanswer!
> ...





Switzerland, at least where the majority of the people live is urban.  Get a clue.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 12, 2018)

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > bgrouse said:
> ...


He can't. He's got a mental illness. It's called liberalism.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 13, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Think about it, retard:
> 
> Blacks commit more than 50% of the homicides in the USA despite being a mere 13% of the population!



sigh... we're back to the racism again.   We always come back to the racism with you guys... 

You guys will blame anything for shootings- blacks, mental illness, video games - that gets guns off the hook. 

because once we did something like Germany or Switzerland, and put standards on who can own a gun, most of you gun nutters would probably be eliminated.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Think about it, retard:
> ...




Yes...we saw what happened when Germany confiscated guns......they went on to murder 12 million people...

No thanks.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 13, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Yes...we saw what happened when Germany confiscated guns......they went on to murder 12 million people...



Except Germany didn't confiscate guns.   The Nazis rolled back the gun laws, and Germans were happy to use them on the Jews...


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Think about it, retard:
> ...


I blame the cause, which also correlates (obviously). You blame something that doesn't even *correlate*, you fucking idiot!





> blacks, mental illness, video games - that gets guns off the hook.
> 
> because once we did something like Germany or Switzerland, and put standards on who can own a gun, most of you gun nutters would probably be eliminated.


Oh great, the moron ignored most of the post, as usual! Can't read anything contradicting his mental illness/religion!


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes...we saw what happened when Germany confiscated guns......they went on to murder 12 million people...
> ...




And you don't know what you are talking about..


When the Nazis Came for the Guns



By the time the Nazi Party launched a concerted nationwide attack upon the Jews, there was nothing the Jews could do.  The time for defending themselves had long since passed. 

Helga's father certainly couldn't fight back.  A year before, they had come for his guns.  Since he had been a German officer in the Kaiser's army in the Great War, the Nazis assumed, erroneously, it turned out, that he had at least kept his sidearm.  They relented on his traditional officer's sword, reasoning that it was no match for bullets anyway.

The Nazis had in their possession a national registry of gun-owners.  When they came to power in 1933, they knew exactly who had what kind of gun and how many.  And they didn't even have to compile the registry themselves.  A few years earlier, the Interior Minister of the German Weimar government had started the gun ownership registry as a way of keeping tabs on extremist groups in Germany, such as the communists...and the Nazis.  The national registry was thorough, precise, and extensive.  But not public.  The Weimar interior minister was wary of it falling into the wrong hands, like those of the Nazi extremists he warned of.

Shortly afterward, with the Nazis finally coming to power, he and his staff either neglected to destroy the list or ran out of time.  So in one of their first acts after Hitler was elected to govern Germany – yes, he really was elected by the German people – the Nazis quickly went about confiscating the guns through the German gun-owner registry. 

The gun confiscation was highly selective.  The Nazis allowed their loyal minions to keep their guns and even encouraged them to get more.  Those Germans deemed suspect, or declared enemies of the state, had their guns confiscated.  After the Nazis disarmed the rival communists, they targeted the Jews.  Within a year they had visited the homes and shops of every Jewish gun owner in Germany and taken away their guns. 

The Nazis were nervous about any of their real or imagined domestic enemies shooting back at them.  They were especially nervous about the Jews, paranoid to the point where even after they confiscated the guns of all the registered Jewish gun-owners, they still went after the Jewish war veterans.  This is why they ended up at Helga's home in Wesel in 1937. 

Thus, when the Kristallnacht rampage happened a year later, the Jews didn't shoot a single bullet in self-defense because they didn't have any guns to shoot with.  The Nazis had made sure of it. 

Of the 30,000 defenseless Jewish men rounded up that night, only a few survived to the end of the war.  How many would have lived had they been armed when the Nazis came for them?  We can never know.  Yet we can a least surmise that it would have been more than a few, probably many more. 

The Nazi security forces certainly had an endless supply of firearms and the power of the state behind them.  But picture an armed German Jewish resistance network in 1938.  Word gets around that the Nazis are coming for the Jews.  They load their guns and concoct a last ditch-effort to fend them off, allowing more Jews to escape through an Underground Jewish Railroad type of network.  They shoot a lot of Nazis in the process and buy enough time for the rest to make it the borders of those still at peace neighboring countries.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 14, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> I blame the cause, which also correlates (obviously). You blame something that doesn't even *correlate*, you fucking idiot!



Okay, the cause is people in this country have easy access to guns, despite their mental state, suitability or even training to own one.  This happens because the gun industry writes the gun laws, and they want people to be scared shitless so they want guns, too. 



bgrouse said:


> Oh great, the moron ignored most of the post, as usual! Can't read anything contradicting his mental illness/religion!



No, I just get bored with racist gun nuts trying to excuse their fetish. 

No other advanced country lets people have the easy access to guns that ours allows. 

No other advanced country has the level of slaughter we have, so bad it really takes a mass shooting to even get us to talk about it. 

This isn't fucking complicated.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 14, 2018)

2aguy said:


> And you don't know what you are talking about..



Yeah, guy, I kind of do. 




2aguy said:


> Thus, when the Kristallnacht rampage happened a year later, the Jews didn't shoot a single bullet in self-defense because they didn't have any guns to shoot with. The Nazis had made sure of it.



You see, the thing was, NON-Jews had guns in Germany. And guess what, they didn't rush out with their guns and save the Jews. They sat safely in their homes and did... nothing.  A few probably offered to help. Hey, someone told them that Ann Frank was in the attic.  

And if some Juden had fired at the SS, they'd have cheered when the SS came back with a lot more men. 

The ironic thing about Kristallnacht was that a lot of Germans thought it went too far because the Jews couldn't fight back.  If they had shot a few SS officer, Geobbels, who was notorious for his "Criminal Jew Reports", would have had a field day with it.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And you don't know what you are talking about..
> ...



No....nazi party members had guns.....and the brown shirts beat the crap out of anyone who stood up.....

There would have been no Kristallnacht without an unarmed population....


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > I blame the cause, which also correlates (obviously). You blame something that doesn't even *correlate*, you fucking idiot!
> ...


Sorry, but there isn't even such correlation, never mind causation. I showed you with Switzerland, Camden, etc...





> despite their mental state, suitability or even training to own one.  This happens because the gun industry writes the gun laws, and they want people to be scared shitless so they want guns, too.
> 
> 
> bgrouse said:
> ...


No, it isn't, but that isn't stopping you from getting it wrong, does it?

I already told you: your gun access argument just doesn't hold water. It doesn't even correlate. Some of the most dangerous parts of the USA also have some of the toughest gun laws. The gun access/violence correlation in Europe, such as with countries like SUI and UK, simply doesn't exist. What does exist in all of those cases is the correlation between negroes and violence.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 15, 2018)

2aguy said:


> No....nazi party members had guns.....and the brown shirts beat the crap out of anyone who stood up.....
> 
> There would have been no Kristallnacht without an unarmed population....



Uh, there was a Kristallnacht because most Germans really, really, really  hated the Jews. I think the problem you have is that you think that there was no anti-Semitism in Germany before Hitler. (It's kind of like saying there was no racism in America before Trump). 

all it needed was a trigger and a government unwilling to do anything about it. 

Germans had plenty of guns.  They just didn't use them, or if they did, they used them on the Jews.  The Jews had some guns, but they knew this whole thing started because some Jewish kid shot a German diplomat in Paris.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 15, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> I already told you: your gun access argument just doesn't hold water. It doesn't even correlate. Some of the most dangerous parts of the USA also have some of the toughest gun laws.



The toughest gun law in the US is like the tallest midget.  

a tough gun law would be a national one, not one you can get around by crossing from Chicago into Cicero and buying all the guns you want. 



bgrouse said:


> What does exist in all of those cases is the correlation between negroes and violence.



Yup, Racism again...  

Um, all the mass shooters are white kids of privilege... but you keep going on about the scary negroes.


----------



## fncceo (Apr 15, 2018)

ptbw forever said:


> He should have never gone to trial in the first place.



In the UK, all homicides are reviewed by a coroners court (a lower court on the same level as a magistrate's court).  The parties in any homicide are called to give evidence in that proceeding.  In essence, every homicide goes to trial even if just to determine not to lay indictable charges.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 15, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > I already told you: your gun access argument just doesn't hold water. It doesn't even correlate. Some of the most dangerous parts of the USA also have some of the toughest gun laws.
> ...


Still doesn't change the fact that both in the USA (Camden) and Europe (UK, SUI), the only correlation is between violent crime and negroes, *not *violent crime and guns.

And when I say correlation, I mean real statistics, not the statistically insignificant, cherry-picked mass shooting bullshit you like to focus on since your retarded liberal brain can't do any research besides watching CNN.





> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > What does exist in all of those cases is the correlation between negroes and violence.
> ...


Which would explain why mass shootings account for a tiny percentage of violent crime, you retarded clown! Thanks for making my point for me.

Seriously, how fucking retarded are you? Do you really believe that the "breaking news" mass shootings are statistically representative of violent crime?


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 16, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that both in the USA (Camden) and Europe (UK, SUI), the only correlation is between violent crime and negroes, *not *violent crime and guns.
> 
> And when I say correlation, I mean real statistics, not the statistically insignificant, cherry-picked mass shooting bullshit you like to focus on since your retarded liberal brain can't do any research besides watching CNN.



Guy, the UK had 48 gun homicides. 
The US Has 11,000 gun homicides. 

Sorry, man, it's the GUNS, not the darkies.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 16, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Still doesn't change the fact that both in the USA (Camden) and Europe (UK, SUI), the only correlation is between violent crime and negroes, *not *violent crime and guns.
> ...


And El Salvador has 5.8 guns per 100 people (even less than England and Wales) while having the highest murder rate *on the planet* (by far).

Did I mention you are retarded? If not, here it is just in case: you're a god damned *retard*!!!


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 16, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Still doesn't change the fact that both in the USA (Camden) and Europe (UK, SUI), the only correlation is between violent crime and negroes, *not *violent crime and guns.
> ...




No...Britain has increasing gun crime, we have gun crime going down, their criminals do not shoot to kill as often as ours do but they are shooting each other more and more now....just below the waist, not in the head or chest...


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 16, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Still doesn't change the fact that both in the USA (Camden) and Europe (UK, SUI), the only correlation is between violent crime and negroes, *not *violent crime and guns.
> ...




Wrong, again....

Does Gun Control Reduce Murder? Let’s Run The Numbers Globally



Let’s look at the countries with the highest concentrations of gun ownership (excluding Yemen and Iraq as active war zones). Guns per murder in those countries are,


United States at 20,967,
Uruguay at 3,777,
Norway at 55,893,
France at 19,747,
Austria at 59,608,
Germany at 35,647,
Switzerland at 35,435,
New Zealand at 24,835, and
Greece at 26,471.
*Norway is a particularly interesting example. It has 10 times the gun ownership rate of the United Kingdom, but only half the murder rate.*

When one excludes Iraq and Yemen, not one of the countries on the list of the 10 highest rates of gun ownership also appears on the list of the top ten highest murder rates. In fact, the countries with the highest murder rates have markedly low gun ownership rates.


El Savador (108.64 murders per 100,000/5800 guns per 100,000)
Honduras (63.75/6200)
Venezuela (57.15/10,700)
Jamaica (43.21/8,100)
Lesotho (38/2,700)
Belize (34.4/10,000)
South Africa (34.27/12,700)
Guatemala (31.21/13,100)
Trinidad (30.88/1,600)
Bahamas (29.81/5,300)
It really doesn’t matter how you slice this data. The conclusion is inescapable: High concentrations of private, legal gun ownership do not correlate positively to increased murders. Indeed, you can look at almost any slice of data and conclude the opposite: Higher private ownership of guns can be strongly correlated to lower murder rates.

The data also exposes some myths I have heard about gun control. For example, I’ve heard activists tout Australia, which supposedly banned all guns. Australia has advanced a number of gun control measures over the years. Nevertheless, according to the data, Australia has a rate of private ownership of guns of 13,100 per 100,000 and a murder rate of .98.

*Australia has almost twice as many guns per capita as the United Kingdom, for example, and a comparable murder rate. New Zealand has almost twice as many guns per capita as Australia but a lower crime rate.*

Countries with both a low rate of private gun ownership and a low murder rate exist, but they are clearly data outliers. These include the Netherlands (3,900 guns per 100,000, for a murder rate of .61) the United Kingdom (6,200 guns per 100,000, for a murder rate of .92), Japan, and Portugal. Places like Norway, Austria, Switzerland, and Germany overwhelm those examples because they all have high rates of gun ownership and enviable crime rates.

-------

The ratio of murders per gun works as a decent measure for how responsible a country’s citizens are with their firearms. Measured in this light, an owner of a private legal gun in America measures as one of the most responsible in the world. A gun in America is 387 times less likely to be used in a murder than in El Salvador. Even in Japan, which has one of the lowest murder and gun ownership rates in the world, there are ten times as many murders per gun than in America.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 16, 2018)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > bgrouse said:
> ...


You really expect that retarded fucking CNN parrot to do anything other than repeat his 2 gun homicide #s as if that's the end all, be all to violent crime statistics?


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 17, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> And El Salvador has 5.8 guns per 100 people (even less than England and Wales) while having the highest murder rate *on the planet* (by far).



El Salvador has criminal gangs and rebel armies and a government that shoots anyone it doesn't like.  If you have to go there to say, "See, we aren't so bad... was that a car backfiring?" 



2aguy said:


> No...Britain has increasing gun crime, we have gun crime going down, their criminals do not shoot to kill as often as ours do but they are shooting each other more and more now....just below the waist, not in the head or chest...



We have 70,000 gun injuries compared to 11,000 homicides and 20,000 suicides... We aren't particularly good shots ourselves.  

The Brits have nowhere near those numbers.


----------



## Theowl32 (Apr 17, 2018)

2aguy said:


> This man had his home invaded by two violent criminals, while he was home.  This happens more often in Britain where criminals invade inhabited homes because they know the people inside can't shoot them.  In this case, a fight broke out and one of the criminals was stabbed and killed.  The innocent victim was arrested on murder charges but the charges were dropped...now, he is in hiding because he fears the criminals will come back and punish him.....the cops can't help him, he is on his own, and he has nothing to protect himself with.....since they banned and confiscated guns......
> 
> Pensioner who fatally stabbed burglar 'fears revenge attack' | Metro News


Nothing to worry about. The queen, the princes, princesses, and Elton John are protected. Along with the rest of the left wing rich elitists. 

Nothing will happen. Like I said, nothing to worry about. Plus, if the victim is a white guy and the criminals were NOT white, then there is no crime.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 17, 2018)

Theowl32 said:


> Nothing to worry about. The queen, the princes, princesses, and Elton John are protected. Along with the rest of the left wing rich elitists.



48 gun murders in the UK
11,000 gun murders in the US.

I'd say they do a better job protecting their people than we do.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 17, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > And El Salvador has 5.8 guns per 100 people (even less than England and Wales) while having the highest murder rate *on the planet* (by far).
> ...


Oh, I see. So when we're talking about El Salvador, it's the people that are at fault. But when we're talking about negroes in the USA, they're sacred creatures to retarded liberals like you, so the blames gets pinned on the guns!

Fucking doublethinking liberal hypocrite!



JoeB131 said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing to worry about. The queen, the princes, princesses, and Elton John are protected. Along with the rest of the left wing rich elitists.
> ...


Good job you stupid parrot.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 18, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Oh, I see. So when we're talking about El Salvador, it's the people that are at fault. But when we're talking about negroes in the USA, they're sacred creatures to retarded liberals like you, so the blames gets pinned on the guns!



No, El Salvador is a country that has been racked by civil war for decades, largely because we keep dumping guns into the place. 

America, there's no excuse for the level of carnage we have. 

If you have to compare America to an impoverished third world country to make us look better, you've already failed.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 18, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I see. So when we're talking about El Salvador, it's the people that are at fault. But when we're talking about negroes in the USA, they're sacred creatures to retarded liberals like you, so the blames gets pinned on the guns!
> ...




Yes...there is an explanation for the 11,004 gun murders in the U.S. in 2016......70-80% of the victims are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, and 90% of the killers are also career criminals with histories of crime and violence going back to their teen years....

And democrats keep letting these violent gun criminals out of jail over and over again....

That is why we have a problem...democrats refuse to lock up gun criminals.....why?  I don't know...they must like gun murder....it helps them to push gun control.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 18, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I see. So when we're talking about El Salvador, it's the people that are at fault. But when we're talking about negroes in the USA, they're sacred creatures to retarded liberals like you, so the blames gets pinned on the guns!
> ...


But there are NOT that many guns (per capita) there, stupid! There are even fewer than in England and Wales! If guns were causing this as you say they are, the USA would be far, far more dangerous than El Salvador, but the *opposite *is true!





> America, there's no excuse for the level of carnage we have.
> 
> If you have to compare America to an impoverished third world country to make us look better, you've already failed.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 18, 2018)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > bgrouse said:
> ...


The explanation is even simpler: more than half of the homicides are negroes, despite negroes making up only 13% of the population. The violent crime / negro correlation is as strong as ever and the violent crime / guns correlation (lack thereof) is so all over the place so as to suggest they are totally unrelated, but this stupid liberal jackass keeps dragging out the same tired old bullshit argument. If you took away the negroes and halved the homicide rate (4.88), you'd get 2.44, which would place it somewhere between Martinique (France) and Belgium.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 19, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Yes...there is an explanation for the 11,004 gun murders in the U.S. in 2016.....



yes... there is. People who should never been allowed to own a gun were able to buy one. 



2aguy said:


> And democrats keep letting these violent gun criminals out of jail over and over again....
> 
> That is why we have a problem...democrats refuse to lock up gun criminals.....why? I don't know...they must like gun murder....it helps them to push gun control.



We lock up 2 million people. We lock up more than any other country in the world, including Communist China (A police state that has four times as many people).  

If locking people up were the answer to anything, we'd be there by now.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 19, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes...there is an explanation for the 11,004 gun murders in the U.S. in 2016.....
> ...


Can you give me a straight answer why *more *guns happens to correlate with *fewer *homicides in the case of Switzerland and the UK (both Central/Western European countries) when you're telling us the opposite should be true?

Other countries that have MORE guns (rate) than Britain and FEWER homicides (rate) than Britain:
Norway
Austria
Iceland


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 19, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes...there is an explanation for the 11,004 gun murders in the U.S. in 2016.....
> ...




Moron...when you let them back out in less than 3 years, wether or not you lock them up is a moot fucking point....democrats keep letting violent gun criminals out of jail, they are the ones shooting each other and driving our gun murder rate, not John and Jane Q. Citizen who own guns to protect themselves from the criminals the democrats keep letting out of jail...


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 19, 2018)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...


That goes against that retarded liberal's ridiculous beliefs regarding equality.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 20, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Can you give me a straight answer why *more *guns happens to correlate with *fewer *homicides in the case of Switzerland and the UK (both Central/Western European countries) when you're telling us the opposite should be true?



I've given you that answer.  Guns in Switzerland (a sparsely populated country) are HIGHLY REGULATED.  and they still have the occassional mass shooting. 

Look, just because you dislike an answer doesn't mean I have to keep repeating it. 

The rest of us are tired of you gun nuts inflicting carnage on the rest of us because you can't deal with having tiny dicks.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 20, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Moron...when you let them back out in less than 3 years, wether or not you lock them up is a moot fucking point....democrats keep letting violent gun criminals out of jail, they are the ones shooting each other and driving our gun murder rate, not John and Jane Q. Citizen who own guns to protect themselves from the criminals the democrats keep letting out of jail...



Guy, we lock people up for life for stealing slices of Pizza.  

And um, yeah, most gun deaths are suicides, accidents and domestic violence, so it IS John and Jane Q who are the problem here.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 20, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Can you give me a straight answer why *more *guns happens to correlate with *fewer *homicides in the case of Switzerland and the UK (both Central/Western European countries) when you're telling us the opposite should be true?
> ...




Moron......it doesn't matter if they are regulated...mass shooters here also go through all of our federal background checks, and fill out all the fucking paperwork too......then they shoot people......if a mass shooter in Switzerland wanted to murder people, he too would be "regulated" just before he took his fully automatic military rifle and murdered a bunch of people......Swiss gun laws do not stop a mass shooter there....they have fully automatic military weapons, they don't have AR-15 civilian rifles....

Americans use their legal guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop carnage...... democrats keep letting violent gun criminals out of jail and they are the ones committing the gun murder...not law abiding gun owners...

Nothing you say about guns is based in truth, facts or reality.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 20, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron...when you let them back out in less than 3 years, wether or not you lock them up is a moot fucking point....democrats keep letting violent gun criminals out of jail, they are the ones shooting each other and driving our gun murder rate, not John and Jane Q. Citizen who own guns to protect themselves from the criminals the democrats keep letting out of jail...
> ...




No....we did not lock him up for stealing pizza.  He was locked up because he was a 3 time felon who committed his 3rd felony by stealing that pizza....knowing he was facing life in prison for it....he had a long history of crime and violence....and he still stole that pizza...

What is it with you morons and letting violent thugs out of jail?


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 20, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Can you give me a straight answer why *more *guns happens to correlate with *fewer *homicides in the case of Switzerland and the UK (both Central/Western European countries) when you're telling us the opposite should be true?
> ...


Your answer doesn't address the question.

The question is: why are there *fewer *homicides in SUI *than in UK* when SUI has more guns.

Your answer might answer the question: why does SUI have so few homicides, but that's not what was asked. The previously mentioned question is what was asked.





> The rest of us are tired of you gun nuts inflicting carnage on the rest of us because you can't deal with having tiny dicks.


Tiny dicks? Your tiny brain is what I'm dealing with, you fucking retard!


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 20, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Moron......it doesn't matter if they are regulated...mass shooters here also go through all of our federal background checks, and fill out all the fucking paperwork too......then they shoot people.....



Which is just proof the background checks are inadequate. 

Here's the thing.   Hold gun sellers resposible for who they sell guns to, and guess what, they'll stop selling to crazy people when they pay out a few 7 figure settlements.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 20, 2018)

2aguy said:


> No....we did not lock him up for stealing pizza. He was locked up because he was a 3 time felon who committed his 3rd felony by stealing that pizza....knowing he was facing life in prison for it....he had a long history of crime and violence....and he still stole that pizza...
> 
> What is it with you morons and letting violent thugs out of jail?



Sorry, man, just can't get that worked up over "Grand theft Pizza".   The fact is, the threat of prison didn't keep him from stealing it, how is it going to keep some bad guy from getting a gun and shooting his cheatin' old lady?


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 21, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron......it doesn't matter if they are regulated...mass shooters here also go through all of our federal background checks, and fill out all the fucking paperwork too......then they shoot people.....
> ...



Moron...those gun sellers followed the law....and you want to punish law abiding people who follow the law for the actions of people who break the law......you are why democrats can't be allowed to run anything....


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 21, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > No....we did not lock him up for stealing pizza. He was locked up because he was a 3 time felon who committed his 3rd felony by stealing that pizza....knowing he was facing life in prison for it....he had a long history of crime and violence....and he still stole that pizza...
> ...




That is why, dumb ass.....when you catch a felon with a gun, you lock them up for 30 freaking years...because they have shown they don't care about the consequences of their actions which means they can and likely will use a gun to murder people....that is why you lock them up.....you are such a doofus......


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 22, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Moron...those gun sellers followed the law....and you want to punish law abiding people who follow the law for the actions of people who break the law......you are why democrats can't be allowed to run anything....



They aren't following the spirit of the law when they sell to guys like Joker Holmes or Nikolas Cruz.   Come on, if you guys were held responsible for who you sold to, you'd stop selling to the crazies.  

But right now, the crazies are your best customers.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 22, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron...those gun sellers followed the law....and you want to punish law abiding people who follow the law for the actions of people who break the law......you are why democrats can't be allowed to run anything....
> ...


Still no response to "why are there *fewer *homicides in SUI *than in UK* when SUI has more guns."


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 22, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Still no response to "why are there *fewer *homicides in SUI *than in UK* when SUI has more guns."



Already gave you a response to that.  

You just didn't like it, because your statement isn't true.  Switzerland had a shitload of mass shooting incidents before they cracked down and regulated the guns.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 22, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Still no response to "why are there *fewer *homicides in SUI *than in UK* when SUI has more guns."
> ...


What's not true?

1. Fewer homicides in SUI than in UK.
2. More guns in SUI than UK.

?


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 22, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> What's not true?



That you have any ability to be reasoned with...   

Now go away and play with the other children.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 22, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > What's not true?
> ...


You responded to this:

_Still no response to "why are there *fewer *homicides in SUI *than in UK* when SUI has more guns."_

Saying it's not true. What isn't true about it, you cowardly piece of shit?


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 22, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> You responded to this:
> 
> _Still no response to "why are there *fewer *homicides in SUI *than in UK* when SUI has more guns."_
> 
> Saying it's not true. What isn't true about it, you cowardly piece of shit?



again, gave you an answer, not going to explain the big words to you because you didn't understand them.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 22, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > You responded to this:
> ...


You're a cowardly, worthless piece of shit, as proven by your post here refusing to address your claims.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 23, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> You're a cowardly, worthless piece of shit, as proven by your post here refusing to address your claims.



actually, I did address them.  But here's another address.  

Okay, let's first start with populations.  The UK has a population of 65 million, Switzerland has a population of 8 million

are we good so far?  Excellent. 

Okay, so how many gun homicides do they have. 

2013: 23
2012: 12
2011: 38

Guns in the United Kingdom — Firearms, gun law and gun control

Um, okay. Wow, really good compared to our 11,000 in the US. 

So how many do they have in Switzerland, where people can own highly regulated guns and the government can take them from you at any time. 

Same three year period. 

2013: 18
2012: 13
2011: 22

Guns in Switzerland — Firearms, gun law and gun control

Now, keep in mind, Switzerland has only 8 million people and the  UK, which is more urban, has more evil Negroes, (which was your point, right) has 65 million.  Yet they both seem to have the statistically low number of gun murders.  

Now go home and get your shine box.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 23, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > You're a cowardly, worthless piece of shit, as proven by your post here refusing to address your claims.
> ...


So at best all you proved is they stopped using guns to commit homicides and started using other means. That's precisely my point: you ban guns, and at best you change the tool of murder. The cause is still there: violent minorities.

Way to go, stupid!

Oh, and by the way:

_Still no response to "why are there *fewer *homicides in SUI *than in UK* when SUI has more guns."_

Note that there is a difference between HOMICIDES (what I asked) and GUN HOMICIDES (what you addressed).


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 23, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> So at best all you proved is they stopped using guns to commit homicides and started using other means. That's precisely my point: you ban guns, and at best you change the tool of murder. The cause is still there: violent minorities.



Okay, so you were wrong and couldn't admit it.  

Okay, same website. 

653 Homicides out of 65,000,000.  Rate - 1/100,000.  

Switzerland (why you keep calling it SUI is weird, but never mind.) 

57 homicides out of 8,000,000 - 1/140,350

Wow... that's statistically insignificant.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 23, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > So at best all you proved is they stopped using guns to commit homicides and started using other means. That's precisely my point: you ban guns, and at best you change the tool of murder. The cause is still there: violent minorities.
> ...


Wrong about what, dumbass? My question has been about homicides/violent crime for a while. You're the only obtuse, worthless idiot here who decided to only talk about gun homicides only, as if making people kill each other with bats and knives instead of guns is some huge accomplishment!





> Okay, same website.
> 
> 653 Homicides out of 65,000,000.  Rate - 1/100,000.
> 
> Switzerland (why you keep calling it SUI is weird, but never mind.)


It's one of the well-known abbreviations for it, stupid. You'd think that with internet access, you'd do a search and find out in 30 seconds what it is, but no, not with your steadfast commitment to ignorance!





> 57 homicides out of 8,000,000 - 1/140,350
> 
> Wow... that's statistically insignificant.


Statistically insignificant? This coming from *you*?! You, the moron who has been yammering on and on about mass shootings? 



JoeB131 said:


> Switzerland is largely rural and has a pretty small population.
> 
> Point is, they aren't the gun nuttery that we have in the US.  You don't get a gun unless they know you can trust you with it... and they STILL have the occassional *mass shooting*.
> 
> The UK Hasn't had a *mass shooting* since the 1990's.





JoeB131 said:


> No other advanced country has the level of slaughter we have, so bad it really takes a *mass shooting* to even get us to talk about it.
> 
> This isn't fucking complicated.





JoeB131 said:


> The toughest gun law in the US is like the tallest midget.
> 
> a tough gun law would be a national one, not one you can get around by crossing from Chicago into Cicero and buying all the guns you want.
> 
> ...





JoeB131 said:


> Already gave you a response to that.
> 
> You just didn't like it, because your statement isn't true.  Switzerland had a *shitload* of *mass shooting* incidents before they cracked down and regulated the guns.



When even by some of the more liberal estimates, mass shootings in the US kill fewer than 500 people yearly!!! That's fewer than 500 / 320 million, or 0.15 per 100,000!!! And you're saying 1/100,000 is not statistically significant?! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

You *STUPID! FUCKING! RETARD!*


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 24, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Wrong about what, dumbass? My question has been about homicides/violent crime for a while.



Guy, you claimed that Switzerland has less gun violence with shitloads of guns...  

They don't.  they have more on a per capita basis and almost as much on a raw number basis.   and that was AFTER they cracked down on gun owners and started regulating them. 



bgrouse said:


> When even by some of the more liberal estimates, mass shootings in the US kill fewer than 500 people yearly!!!



Which is still too many..


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 24, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong about what, dumbass? My question has been about homicides/violent crime for a while.
> ...


Is English your second language? You were responding to this, you stupid clown! 



bgrouse said:


> Can you give me a straight answer why *more *guns happens to correlate with *fewer *homicides in the case of Switzerland and the UK (both Central/Western European countries) when you're telling us the opposite should be true?


Do you still not understand the difference between _homicides_ and _gun violence_, you stupid fucking bozo?!


> They don't.  they have more on a per capita basis and almost as much on a raw number basis.   and that was AFTER they cracked down on gun owners and started regulating them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


500 is still less than the number of homicides in the UK (and even less per capita given the US's much larger population), which you say is statistically insignificant 



JoeB131 said:


> *653 *Homicides out of 65,000,000.  Rate - 1/100,000.
> 
> Switzerland (why you keep calling it SUI is weird, but never mind.)
> 
> ...





You're full of shit, you fucking clown! You've been exposed as a stupid fucking liberal robot who doesn't care about homicide. You're just anti-gun.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 25, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> You're full of shit, you fucking clown! You've been exposed as a stupid fucking liberal robot who doesn't care about homicide. You're just anti-gun.



Oh, I admit i'm anti-gun. 

Guns cause 33,000 deaths, 70,000 injuries, 400,000 crimes and 270 BILLION in economic losses every year.  

It's why we have to all live in a security police state, because you never can tell when some nut might shoot up a school or a waffle house.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 25, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > You're full of shit, you fucking clown! You've been exposed as a stupid fucking liberal robot who doesn't care about homicide. You're just anti-gun.
> ...


Yes, you're an irrational, dishonest, agenda-driven, anti-gun turd.





> Guns cause


As I've demonstrated, guns don't "cause" much of anything like that. You take away guns, and people commit murder with other tools (or their bare hands), as I've demonstrated with Switzerland, etc...


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 25, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> As I've demonstrated, guns don't "cause" much of anything like that. You take away guns, and people commit murder with other tools (or their bare hands), as I've demonstrated with Switzerland, etc...



All you really demonstrated is that when guns are banned or regulated, you have less gun violence.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 25, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > As I've demonstrated, guns don't "cause" much of anything like that. You take away guns, and people commit murder with other tools (or their bare hands), as I've demonstrated with Switzerland, etc...
> ...


Yes, if they're effectively banned, people will start using knives, bats, etc... to commit violence. Your point? Is it better if this:

_*Guns *cause 33,000 deaths, 70,000 injuries, 400,000 crimes and 270 BILLION in economic losses every year._

turns to this?

_*Knives *cause 33,000 deaths, 70,000 injuries, 400,000 crimes and 270 BILLION in economic losses every year._


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 26, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Yes, if they're effectively banned, people will start using knives, bats, etc... to commit violence. Your point? Is it better if this:
> 
> _*Guns *cause 33,000 deaths, 70,000 injuries, 400,000 crimes and 270 BILLION in economic losses every year._
> 
> ...



Except nowhere that has banned or regulated guns has this level of knife deaths.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 26, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, if they're effectively banned, people will start using knives, bats, etc... to commit violence. Your point? Is it better if this:
> ...


I don't know what they're using in El Salvador given that they have even fewer guns per 100 people than even the UK, but it must be something that earned them the #1 spot (by a lot) on the homicide rate chart.

Anyway, we've talked about this before. You're going in circles, you stupid clown! Aren't you tired of having your ass handed to you daily?

Your problem is you're cherry-picking 2 countries (UK and USA) that fit your agenda and ignoring all the evidence found among the other 100+ countries.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 27, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Anyway, we've talked about this before. You're going in circles, you stupid clown! Aren't you tired of having your ass handed to you daily?
> 
> Your problem is you're cherry-picking 2 countries (UK and USA) that fit your agenda and ignoring all the evidence found among the other 100+ countries.



Yes, I picked TWO COUNTRIES that are nearly identical in culture, language, economic development, etc.  

The only real major difference between the two countries, besides the fact they still have a ceremonial monarchy, is that they don't let their citizens own guns.  

I could pick other similar countries - Germany, Japan, Canada - and prove the same thing.  

You have to go with countries that are either not what you claim (Switzerland) or ones where basic government broke down a long time ago (El Salvador), because you can't stand the thought of living without a gun to compensate for your "shortcomings".


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 27, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, we've talked about this before. You're going in circles, you stupid clown! Aren't you tired of having your ass handed to you daily?
> ...


...except the violent culture of negroes is anything but "nearly identical" to the culture of whites in either Europe or the USA. Given that negroes are a much bigger portion of the US population than they are of the UK population, the cultures most certainly are NOT nearly identical.





> The only real major difference between the two countries, besides the fact they still have a ceremonial monarchy, is that they don't let their citizens own guns.
> 
> I could pick other similar countries - Germany, Japan, Canada - and prove the same thing.


Japan is now similar to Germany and Canada?! It's the language, right?!




> You have to go with countries that are either not what you claim (Switzerland) or ones where basic government broke down a long time ago (El Salvador), because you can't stand the thought of living without a gun to compensate for your "shortcomings".


Switzerland has much more gun ownership (as a rate) than the UK. So do various other European countries with lower homicide rates. Yes, you can cherry pick a handful of countries here and there and you'll see correlation between guns and homicides, but overall, there is very little correlation, suggesting a lack of causation.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 27, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> ...except the violent culture of negroes is anything but "nearly identical" to the culture of whites in either Europe or the USA.



Yup, keeping bringing up the Racism... (Um, they've got Darkies in the UK, too.)


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 27, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > ...except the violent culture of negroes is anything but "nearly identical" to the culture of whites in either Europe or the USA.
> ...


Yes, only 3% vs our 13%. Hence the difference in violent crime. Switzerland has even fewer and even less homicide.

Funny how you ignore that far stronger correlation.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 27, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Yes, only 3% vs our 13%. Hence the difference in violent crime.



Not signifigant...

Here's the reason we have more crime.... 

We let any asshole who wants a gun have one.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 27, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, only 3% vs our 13%. Hence the difference in violent crime.
> ...


Our negro rate is 4.33 times the UK negro rate. Our homicide rate is 5.30 times the UK rate, but of course we also unlike Britain have violent latinos/MS13 (whose members came from principally where? Oh right, El Salvador! That safe place with very few guns!) to make up the difference.

On the other hand, our guns per person rate is more than 16 times the rate of Britain.

But even if you don't buy the hispanics argument, the *5.30 *homicide rate comparison is closer to what, *16 *(gun rate comparison) or *4.33* (negro rate comparison)?

Face it, you idiot! Either way you slice it, the correlation between race and violent crime is far stronger than that between gun ownership and violent crime.


----------



## JoeB131 (Apr 28, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Face it, you idiot! Either way you slice it, the correlation between race and violent crime is far stronger than that between gun ownership and violent crime.



Um, no, while I'm sure you wet yourself whenever you see a Darkie, being a darkie by itself doesn't kill anyone.  

People with guns, however, do kill people.... 

This isn't fucking complicated.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Apr 28, 2018)

Interesting discussion, albeit a bit off track. Guns are a contentious issue in many countries, I agree. Before the post-Dunblane legislation, I used to own handguns, I’d shoot at a local club for recreation and found the concentration involved shooting at targets helped clear my mind, all in all, a relaxing hobby. 

Occasionally I’d hire our club guns so I’ve experience in shooting just about everything from .22 to 44 Magnum (popularised in the “Dirty Harry” films of the time) and 10mm pistols.

I’d like to think I was a responsible gun user, as opposed to a “gun nut”, but I’m a firm believer that guns should not be widely or easily made available to the general public for “self-protection”. 

Most “civilians” are unable to cope with the stresses involved in making life and death decisions involving fire arms, and that includes me. I was a good shot in my time, but it’s one thing shooting at targets on a range and completely another shooting in stressful situations.

The club I was a member of once organised a “bodyguard” course which included a simulator which ran you through 10 scenarios of dealing with the possibility of armed attack in a “real life situation”, first however, the instructors ran the participants ragged doing what is now trendily called high intensity training, while constantly screaming in our ears. When we were sufficiently out of breath and disorientated, we had to field strip our pistols, reassemble them load and cock the weapons, then deal with whatever series of “crises” we were presented with. To cut a long story short, in the 10 scenarios, I managed to “kill” 8 innocent bystanders, 1 hostage and 4 bad guys; and I ended up 3rd best in the group!

That experience taught me “gun-fighting” is best left to professionals. 

Yes, without guns, people will turn to knives, clubs, rocks, etc. but it’s far more difficult to stab someone than it is to shoot them; you must get up close and personal with a knife or a rock, and if your opponent is similarly armed, that could be a disincentive to do so.

Interestingly the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania carried out a study of gunshot/stabbing trauma victims in 2014 and found that 33% of gunshot victims died, compared to only 7.7% of stabbing victims.

Personally, I’m happy, and feel much safer, living in a society where guns are tightly regulated, just my point of view, thank you for reading.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 28, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Face it, you idiot! Either way you slice it, the correlation between race and violent crime is far stronger than that between gun ownership and violent crime.
> ...


"Um, no" is your argument against my statistics? You're a typical dumbass liberal.





> while I'm sure you wet yourself whenever you see a Darkie, being a darkie by itself doesn't kill anyone.


And owning a gun by itself does? You fucking idiot!





> People with guns, however, do kill people....


So do darkies with guns.





> This isn't fucking complicated.


No, but you have to know how to read and comprehend even the simple things in order to understand them, so I suspect this is your problem: your inability to read and comprehend English.


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 28, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Interesting discussion, albeit a bit off track. Guns are a contentious issue in many countries, I agree. Before the post-Dunblane legislation, I used to own handguns, I’d shoot at a local club for recreation and found the concentration involved shooting at targets helped clear my mind, all in all, a relaxing hobby.
> 
> Occasionally I’d hire our club guns so I’ve experience in shooting just about everything from .22 to 44 Magnum (popularised in the “Dirty Harry” films of the time) and 10mm pistols.
> 
> ...


And that's based on...what?





> and that includes me. I was a good shot in my time, but it’s one thing shooting at targets on a range and completely another shooting in stressful situations.
> 
> The club I was a member of once organised a “bodyguard” course which included a simulator which ran you through 10 scenarios of dealing with the possibility of armed attack in a “real life situation”, first however, the instructors ran the participants ragged


Nice course! So the instructor intentionally introduced unrealistic parameters into the course in order to get you to fail. Sounds very political.





> doing what is now trendily called high intensity training, while constantly screaming in our ears. When we were sufficiently out of breath and disorientated,


He should have given you ecstasy and made you wear watermelons on your feet, too.





> we had to field strip our pistols, reassemble them load and cock the weapons, then deal with whatever series of “crises” we were presented with. To cut a long story short, in the 10 scenarios, I managed to “kill” 8 innocent bystanders, 1 hostage and 4 bad guys; and I ended up 3rd best in the group!
> 
> That experience taught me “gun-fighting” is best left to professionals.


That's because you're a dumbass. Intelligent people understand the deck was unrealistically and needlessly stacked against you to make you make those errors. They must raise you Brits to be stupid, loyal subjects.





> Yes, without guns, people will turn to knives, clubs, rocks, etc. but it’s far more difficult to stab someone than it is to shoot them; you must get up close and personal with a knife or a rock, and if your opponent is similarly armed, that could be a disincentive to do so.


It stacks the deck in favor of a violent criminal, who has more experience with it.





> Interestingly the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania carried out a study of gunshot/stabbing trauma victims in 2014 and found that 33% of gunshot victims died, compared to only 7.7% of stabbing victims.
> 
> Personally, I’m happy, and feel much safer, living in a society where guns are tightly regulated, just my point of view, thank you for reading.


----------



## evenflow1969 (Apr 29, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> Can;t believe they arrested him. Should have given him a medal and a gun permit. Just more bullshit from the criminal-loving pieces of shit in power.


There is a good chance you will be arrested here in that situation. This is why we have the saying "I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six" Any time you deal with the courts or cops it has the potential to cost you a great deal of time and money. I believe this is the case no matter where you go on the planet! I would imagine there are several missing persons in the United States that home owners killed in this type of situation that said the hell with calling the cops and hid the bodies. Most people with a brain like to avoid cops and courts!


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 29, 2018)

evenflow1969 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Can;t believe they arrested him. Should have given him a medal and a gun permit. Just more bullshit from the criminal-loving pieces of shit in power.
> ...


Sure, but with modern electronics, it's pretty hard to hide something like that. They could just check the last location of the man's cellphone and zero in on you.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Apr 29, 2018)

bgrouse said:
			
		

> Nice course! So the instructor intentionally introduced unrealistic parameters into the course in order to get you to fail. Sounds very political.





			
				bgrouse said:
			
		

> That's because you're a dumbass. Intelligent people understand the deck was unrealistically and needlessly stacked against you to make you make those errors. They must raise you Brits to be stupid, loyal subjects.



Thank you for your reply, the course was an eye opener indeed. It was run by representatives of a private security company that specialises in providing bodyguards and other private security functions for VIPs, most of the employees are either ex-special forces or paratroopers or Royal Marine Commandos. The idea of the run around was to artificially create an adrenaline rush and the shouting at us was designed to induce a level of distraction that would come from shouts and screams of nearby bystanders.

As any shooter will tell you, controlling your breathing and heart rate is important when trying to shoot with any degree of accuracy. Short of them shooting live ammunition at us, it was about as realistic as you could get in a simulation.

Interestingly, the gentleman who came top was himself a retired army officer who had seen action in the Falklands, and he only managed 8 bad guys and 3 innocent bystanders!



			
				bgrouse said:
			
		

> It stacks the deck in favor of a violent criminal, who has more experience with it.



Very good point which also makes my argument for me, thank you. Armed or not, a violent criminal will always have more “experience” than a normal “civilian” and be more likely to win in either a “shoot out” or a “punch up”. Very few average people have the skills of a Chuck Norris or a Steven Segal in either fire arms or unarmed combat.

I’ve no objection to people owning guns for recreation, but if they want to use them for “self defence” they should have extensive training and be certified accordingly; if only to avoid the number of innocent bystanders shot accidently by any budding “Rambos” who want to show how macho they are.


----------



## evenflow1969 (Apr 29, 2018)

bgrouse said:


> evenflow1969 said:
> 
> 
> > bgrouse said:
> ...


They can do that to most not to me. I wire cell phone towers on the side, I understand how they work and how to trick them Further more cops are lazy, they are not as quick to follow thru on an investigation as they are on TV. I can clone the assailents phone and have him showing up according to cell phone towers in multiple places at one time. Assuming that the criminal was stupid enough to commit such a crime with it in his pocket. Criminals are lazy and stupid I must admit but most would be bright enough to leave the cell phone some where else if they were planning a home invasion. Further more they would have to be able to put a time on the death other wise I can drive the phone around changing his last known where abouts. They put a time on the death and you are screwed by the phone though. The good news is most of us will never worry about such a thing!


----------



## bgrouse (Apr 29, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except what it actually did was "ran the participants ragged." Can't you think for yourself instead of taking their word for everything?





> and the shouting at us was designed to induce a level of distraction that would come from shouts and screams of nearby bystanders.
> 
> As any shooter will tell you, controlling your breathing and heart rate is important when trying to shoot with any degree of accuracy. Short of them shooting live ammunition at us, it was about as realistic as you could get in a simulation.


Controlling your breathing? Only if you're dead tired and huffing and puffing or trying to hit a very small target with a scoped rifle.





> Interestingly, the gentleman who came top was himself a retired army officer who had seen action in the Falklands, and he only managed 8 bad guys and 3 innocent bystanders!


8 bad guys? Most people I've seen want a gun to protect themselves at home mostly. Which is what happened: 1-2 bad guys and maybe you're wife is also in the house with you. If you're up against 8 people with guns or even knives, you're probably as good as dead anyway. That hardly ever happens though, so again, you were too dumb to see the scenario was stacked against you to make a political point. You must make a great British loyal subject!





> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Experience may help with a knife fight, but it won't do much against a bullet. With a gun, what's more important is knowledge of the area, so the homeowner wins that one.





> a violent criminal will always have more “experience” than a normal “civilian” and be more likely to win in either a “shoot out” or a “punch up”. Very few average people have the skills of a Chuck Norris or a Steven Segal in either fire arms or unarmed combat.


You don't need to, but I'm sure your instructor told you otherwise and you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.





> I’ve no objection to people owning guns for recreation, but if they want to use them for “self defence” they should have extensive training and be certified accordingly; if only to avoid the number of innocent bystanders shot accidently by any budding “Rambos” who want to show how macho they are.


Yeah, it was really important for the guy in the OP to deal with nonexistent bystanders!


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 1, 2018)

bgrouse said:
			
		

> Except what it actually did was "ran the participants ragged." Can't you think for yourself instead of taking their word for everything?





			
				bgrouse said:
			
		

> Controlling your breathing? Only if you're dead tired and huffing and puffing or trying to hit a very small target with a scoped rifle.





			
				bgrouse said:
			
		

> 8 bad guys? Most people I've seen want a gun to protect themselves at home mostly. Which is what happened: 1-2 bad guys and maybe you're wife is also in the house with you. If you're up against 8 people with guns or even knives, you're probably as good as dead anyway. That hardly ever happens though, so again, you were too dumb to see the scenario was stacked against you to make a political point. You must make a great British loyal subject!



“Ran the participants ragged” was my own turn of phrase and as I’ve already said most normal/average people aren’t fit enough or mentally prepared enough to deal with sudden stress levels caused by something like an attack on themselves or a loved one. I’d take the word of a trained experienced professional over a Hollywood film, any day of the week, thank you.

There was no politics involved in this. Remember this was a gun club event; all of us there were gun owners and experienced shooters. The idea was to give us a taste of what a “real life” experience of making split second life or death decisions was like, nothing more. To reiterate from my previous post:



			
				Vagabond63 said:
			
		

> The club I was a member of once organised a “bodyguard” course which included a simulator which ran you through 10 scenarios of dealing with the possibility of armed attack in a “real life situation”…



You clearly misunderstood. There were 10 individual video scenarios we had to deal with; each of which had an indeterminate number of potential assailants, some situations presented were in fact harmless but could potentially have been menacing; we had to make a split-second decision to shoot or not to shoot.

As for your home protection scenario, are you really telling me Americans wander around their homes with holstered, loaded guns constantly on their person, even when taking a bath?! How paranoid must these people be?


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## evenflow1969 (May 1, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> bgrouse said:
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Not many run around with holsters but I know a few that have a gun in every room, Alot of us have dogs that make it pretty hard for people to sneak up on us!


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## bgrouse (May 1, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> bgrouse said:
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Of course you will, given you're a mindless UK "subject" / robot. If you can't think for yourself, let someone else do it for you!





> There was no politics involved in this. Remember this was a gun club event; all of us there were gun owners and experienced shooters. The idea was to give us a taste of what a “real life” experience of making split second life or death decisions was like, nothing more. To reiterate from my previous post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A bodyguard course is supposed to have what to do with typical home defense?





> You clearly misunderstood. There were 10 individual video scenarios we had to deal with; each of which had an indeterminate number of potential assailants, some situations presented were in fact harmless but could potentially have been menacing; we had to make a split-second decision to shoot or not to shoot.
> 
> As for your home protection scenario, are you really telling me Americans wander around their homes with holstered, loaded guns constantly on their person, even when taking a bath?! How paranoid must these people be?


They don't have to, you idiot. They keep their guns nearby, like in a desk, and get them when they hear a noise at night. Homeowners know their homes better than anybody else and can easily figure out where a burglar is provided they have decent hearing.


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## Vagabond63 (May 2, 2018)

evenflow1969 said:
			
		

> Not many run around with holsters but I know a few that have a gun in every room, Alot of us have dogs that make it pretty hard for people to sneak up on us!



Remarkable. Doesn’t having a dog or dogs provide you with enough “security”?



			
				bgrouse said:
			
		

> A bodyguard course is supposed to have what to do with typical home defense?



I would have though that was obvious to such an intelligent “free thinker” as yourself, but as you apparently require everything explaining to you in detail, the idea was to provide a simulated experience of dealing with actual or potential threats in various circumstances when the use of a fire arm against a fellow human being may prove necessary. The aim of the experience was to provide a “real life” simulation without actually having to defend yourself or a loved one for real.

Aren’t you as a “home defender” just a “bodyguard” for your family and property?



			
				bgrouse said:
			
		

> They don't have to, you idiot. They keep their guns nearby, like in a desk, and get them when they hear a noise at night. Homeowners know their homes better than anybody else and can easily figure out where a burglar is provided they have decent hearing.



Really, you mean just like Oscar Pistorius, who alleges he was awakened in the night by sounds he thought were burglars, shot and killed his girlfriend Riva Steenkamp, who had gone to the toilet? (the jury didn’t believe him as he was convicted of murder, but I was just illustrating, the fallacy of your argument) Here’s some interesting statistics for you, from: Examining Accidental Shooting Death Statistics.
·        From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings. In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths.

·        Accidental gun deaths occur mainly in those under 25 years old. In 2014, 2,549 children (age 0-19) died by gunshot and an additional 13,576 were injured.

·        Adolescents are particularly susceptible to accidental shootings due to specific behavioral characteristics associated with adolescence, such as impulsivity, feelings of invincibility, and curiosity about firearms.

·        A statistically significant association exists between gun availability and the rates of unintentional firearm deaths, homicides, and suicides.

·        In the United States, over 1.69 million kids age 18 and under are living in households with loaded and unlocked firearms, setting the scene for possible tragedy if firearms are not locked and stored properly.

·        A study from 2014 showed that those people that died from accidental shooting were more than three times as likely to have had a firearm in their home as those in the control.

·        A 2001 study found that regardless of age, people are nine times more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns.

I suspect most of the gun owners involved “keep their guns nearby, like in a desk…”

As I've said before, I'm not against private gun ownership, I think if you want to have a fire arm for "home Defence" you should be properly trained and certified; a small price to pay to avoid thousands of unneccessary child deaths, don't you think?


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## Pop23 (May 2, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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*From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings. In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths.*

WOW, that's an average of 688 people per year, although I've seen it as low as 505, but why quibble?

That leaves the odd's at between 1.55 per 300,000,000 and 1 per 150,000,000 on any given day of being killed by an accidental shooting!

Not that I want to cause a panic, but today you have a 1 in 2,043,750 of death from an automobile accident involving texting.

I dunno, neither data set will keep me awake at night.


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## bgrouse (May 2, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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First of all, no. Secondly, a "bodyguard" wouldn't guard "property." That would be a security guard, maybe.

Bodyguards protect high risk (to be attacked) individuals in all sorts of places. With home defense, your first goal is to protect yourself, secondly your property. Many people don't even have families living with them.





> bgrouse said:
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He supposedly shot and killed her *through a closed door*, meaning he didn't even need to see her to kill her. That's how well he knew his home.

Thanks for making my point for me, moron! Homeowner has the advantage.





> ·        From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings. In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths.
> 
> ·        Accidental gun deaths occur mainly in those under 25 years old. In 2014, 2,549 children (age 0-19) died by gunshot and an additional 13,576 were injured.
> 
> ...


Given how few die from this and how doubtful your "training" is to be useful, no, it's not worth it.


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings. In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths.

Notice....as more Americans own and carry guns, our accidental gun death rate has gone down, not up...

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html


2016   495
2015...489http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

2014.....486

2013 .....  505
2012 .....  548
2011 .....  591
2010 .....  606
2009 .....  554
2008 .....  592
2007.....   613
2006.....   642
2005 .....  789
2004 .....  649
2003 .....  730
2002 .....  762
2001 .....  802
2000 .....  776
1999 .....  824


And some more truth for you...

There are close to 600 million guns in private hands in the U.S. and over 17 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense.....with all of those guns in private hands, how many gun accidental deaths in 2016...... 495.

How many car accidental deaths...and how do accidental gun deaths compare to other accidental deaths?

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

*2016*

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

poisoning......58,335

falling.......34,673

suffocation...6,610

drowning......3,786


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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 Accidental gun deaths occur mainly in those under 25 years old. In 2014, 2,549 children (age 0-19) died by gunshot and an additional 13,576 were injured.

And this statistic you posted is a lie......Do you consider a 15 year old gang member who shoots another 15 year old gang member over drug territory a child in the real sense of the word?

The anti gun researchers always include 15-19 year old career criminals in their numbers...because if they don't, they get a much lower number......

From our Centers for Disease control.....

Actual gun murder of children.....14 and under....as more Americans now own and carry guns......

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
2016....
Murder with guns...kids,  238

<1.......11
1-4.......64
5-9......68
10-14....95


Other means........
<1-14
674


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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And more truth......cars are deadlier to our children than guns are...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
*2016:*

*2016: Kids ( <1 to age 14)*
*Total guns: ......74
Total Cars:  1,261

*


Suffocation:  1,215

*Drowning: 713*

*Poisoning:  84*

*Traffic: 1,261*

*Guns: 74 *

*<1......1
1-4.....34
5-9.....16
10-14....23*

*Under age drinking:*

Underage Drinking-Why Do Adolescents  Drink, What Are the Risks, and How Can Underage Drinking Be Prevented?

Each year, approximately 5,000 young people under the age of 21 die as a result of underage drinking; this includes about 1,900 deaths from motor vehicle crashes, 1,600 as a result of homicides, 300 from suicide, as well as hundreds from other injuries such as falls, burns, and drownings (1–5).


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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· A statistically significant association exists between gun availability and the rates of unintentional firearm deaths, homicides, and suicides.

Actually, no.....this too is wrong...

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide



There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.  According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.:  Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000.  By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.   

Suicide is a mental health issue.  If guns are not available other means are used.  Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the _Washington Post_ (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%). 

Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the _Post _article.  The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited.  Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows:  Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).

Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)

Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics.  According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the _Post_’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent.  Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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  In the United States, over 1.69 million kids age 18 and under are living in households with loaded and unlocked firearms, setting the scene for possible tragedy if firearms are not locked and stored properly.

And the thing is.......we have more guns than ever before in private hands....and more people actually carrying guns for self defense....and gun accidents among our children are going down, not up....

71 million children in the U.S.........600 million guns in private hands, over 17 million people carry guns for self defense.....how many children are killed in gun accidents?

And of those, you will find that the owners of those guns in the accidents, are more than likely criminals who are barred from buying, owning or carrying guns, and have them in their homes illegally....after being released from prison by democrats...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
*2016:*

*2016: Kids ( <1 to age 14)*
*Total guns: ......74
Total Cars:  1,261*

The truth is, if you train children to leave guns alone, they are safer......but we have anti gun groups here in the states who fight against teaching our children gun safety.....


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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And what do we get from the ability to use guns for self defense, while Britain is seeing an increase in gun crime and violent crime, after banning and confiscating guns?

Remember....British gun crime is going up......

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...



--------
--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> evenflow1969 said:
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And how often do Americans use their guns for self defense....let's look at 17 studies that looked at that question...from both government and private research groups over a 42 year period...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....
Self defense with a gun:


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> bgrouse said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, only 3% vs our 13%. Hence the difference in violent crime.
> ...




No...we keep having crime because democrats keep letting violent criminals out of jail...they keep fighting to reduce sentences for violent criminals...that is why we have our crime rate...


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Interesting discussion, albeit a bit off track. Guns are a contentious issue in many countries, I agree. Before the post-Dunblane legislation, I used to own handguns, I’d shoot at a local club for recreation and found the concentration involved shooting at targets helped clear my mind, all in all, a relaxing hobby.
> 
> Occasionally I’d hire our club guns so I’ve experience in shooting just about everything from .22 to 44 Magnum (popularised in the “Dirty Harry” films of the time) and 10mm pistols.
> 
> ...




Why......should only the rich and powerful be able to protect themselves from violent criminals?

Do you understand how often normal Americans use their guns for self defense?

Here is the research.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....
Self defense with a gun:


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Interesting discussion, albeit a bit off track. Guns are a contentious issue in many countries, I agree. Before the post-Dunblane legislation, I used to own handguns, I’d shoot at a local club for recreation and found the concentration involved shooting at targets helped clear my mind, all in all, a relaxing hobby.
> 
> Occasionally I’d hire our club guns so I’ve experience in shooting just about everything from .22 to 44 Magnum (popularised in the “Dirty Harry” films of the time) and 10mm pistols.
> 
> ...




All good for you...but the woman who is being raped might not have your advantages in a knife fight....and guns are the best tool for a woman to use to stop a rape...and they don't have to be Navy SEALS or the British SAS....

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

*First,* a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

*Second,* raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

*Third,* a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

*Fourth,* we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.

***********


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## bgrouse (May 3, 2018)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > bgrouse said:
> ...


You mean PEOPLE are at fault for their own actions? That goes against the liberal agenda which places all blame completely on:

1. Dead white men
2. Inanimate objects


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> bgrouse said:
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Very good point which also makes my argument for me, thank you. Armed or not, a violent criminal will always have more “experience” than a normal “civilian” and be more likely to win in either a “shoot out” or a “punch up”. Very few average people have the skills of a Chuck Norris or a Steven Segal in either fire arms or unarmed combat.

And yet, you are wrong.   Criminals run away from armed victims, we know this from experience here in the U.S.  The victims here who use guns and fight off criminals are rarely Navy SEALs or DELTA operators.....you really don't understand firearms and how they are used in actual self defense......

Here are just a few stories of average people, with little to no training with guns, using them to fight off attackers.....notice the outcomes...

Suspect Puts Gun to Man's Head Only to Flee Scene Under Barrage of Bullets

*A suspect put a gun to a man’s head on Thursday only to flee under a barrage of bullets after the would-be victim pulled his own gun and opened fire.*

The incident occurred in Philadelphia’s West Oak Lane.

According to 6 ABC, Rahkeim Kelly was “headed home from buying a soda” when the suspect in a hoodie approached and put a gun to his head. Kelly managed to move away quickly, take cover behind a car, draw his own gun, and open fire.

The suspect, 22-year-old Osirus Lester, fled the scene.

Kelly said, “I fired two shots first, then he tried to take off running. I fired one more, then he ended up dropping the gun. He ran off and I just went and secured the weapon.”

Lester was arrested within minutes with a gunshot wound to his wrist.

Philadelphia Police Capt. Sekou Kinnebrew said, “[Kelly] does have a valid permit to carry. We checked that out. He’s the victim of a robbery. He did attempt to retreat, taking cover behind a car. But the offender continued to aggress, and (the victim) had to defend himself.”
=====================


11/25/17

Auto shop employees credited with taking down accused Rockledge gunman

ROCKLEDGE — A man armed with a .45-caliber handgun and a lot of ammunition wandered onto an auto repair shop property and began firing in the parking lot Friday afternoon, police said.

The gunman killed one employee and paralyzed a second. That's when the employees at Schlenker Automotive fought back with equal force, Rockledge police chief Joseph La Sata said.

"The manager, who was a concealed weapons permit holder, came out and engaged in gunfire in the parking lot," La Sata said. "The manager fled back inside the building, being chased by the gunman. Another Schlenker employee, who also had concealed weapons permit, engaged in gunfire with the suspect."

Police said the suspect in the homicide is Robert Lorenzo Bailey Jr., 28, of Cocoa. He was shot twice and was in critical condition at Health First's Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne. Officers are keeping him under watch.
===================
11/15/17

Good Guy with Gun Stops Sex Assault on Hiking Trail

According to The Blaze, Josh Williams, 39, nearly left his handgun at home when heading out to the hiking trail on a dark morning back in September, but he felt the nagging sensation that he should take it anyway. That turned out to be the right call because while on the trail at 5:30 a.m., Williams heard a woman scream loud enough to get past his music-blaring earbuds. 

In the darkness, Williams shined his flashlight and discovered a woman being sexually assaulted and approached the perpetrator.

“I came up, pulled my gun and told him to get off of her,” Williams recalled. He then asked the man to get on his knees and asked to see his hands: “That way I knew he didn’t have a weapon. And at that point he was no threat, so I didn’t feel the need to shoot him.”

The perp ran away but thanks to a good description from both the victim and Williams, police were able to later apprehend 22-year-old Richard McEachern and charge him with sexual assault.

The victim was very glad Williams decided to carry that day and used a gun to save her from a dangerous situation. That was the first time Williams ever pointed his weapon at another person, but it confirmed for him the importance of the Second Amendment:

“It’s dark, and I don’t know what’s out there, so I have it to protect myself and other people. That’s what it’s all about anyway — to help other people with it, not just myself.

“I didn’t think I’d ever have to pull it. Did I want to? No, not at all. But just … right place, right time.”


====================

11/11/17

81-year-old homeowner fatally shoots armed robber

A suspect was shot and killed when he tried to rob an 81-year-old man at gunpoint outside of the man’s home in Genoa, Arkansas, on Thursday afternoon.

Buddy Cates told KSLA that he walked outside of his home around 1:30 p.m. and came face to face with the suspect, who authorities are still working to identify.

Cates said the suspect was holding a “big pistol,” but Cates also had his hand in his pocket, gripping his own gun.

“The battle was one,” Cates recalled, noting that, between the two, at least a dozen shots were fired.

“Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done,” Cates said. “In this case, it was me.”

Cates was uninjured, but the suspect died after he was taken to a hospital in Texarkana, not far from Cates’ home.

After the attempted robbery and subsequent shooting, three women were arrested in connection to the crime, according to reports from the Texarkana Gazette. Kiana Keshaun Montgomery, 21; Shaynesha Martin, 19; and Ke’Erica Turner, 20, are all facing charges for aggravated robbery and are being held at the Miller County Detention Center. Authorities did not say what part the women played in the robbery or whether they are believed to be responsible for other crimes.


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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This woman....would you prefer that she not have had her gun with her when she was attacked.....?  The outcome for this woman in Britain would be her body found by a passerby.....here, she is alive and well...

What I want you to know on Gun Violence Awareness Day | Fox News

I correctly listened to my instincts; I had a feeling that my life was in danger in that elevator and prepared myself mentally for what was potentially to come. 

I ran to my car in an attempt to escape and, before I could even get my entire body in my car, I was tackled by my attacker.

This man quickly overpowered me, stabbed at me with a knife, clamped his hand over my mouth multiple times, and repeatedly tried forcing me in the passenger seat of my car while telling me, “We’re going.” 

*The entire time this was happening, a rusted, serrated knife was being stabbed towards my abdomen and held at my face. *

*I had been hit in the face, thrown over my driver’s side console, and had rips in my tights from his hands trying to force my legs up and over into the passenger seat.*

There are some individuals that think gun owners are “trigger happy” and wanting to pull their weapons out at the first opportunity. There is nothing further from the truth.

The night I was attacked, I fought like hell for my life before reaching for my gun. I kicked, I screamed, I had all ten fingernails ripped off and bloodied from scratching and trying to fight my way out of a literal life and death situation.

*Ultimately, I accessed my gun, shot my attacker multiple times, and saved my life. He will be spending years in prison for what he did to me.*

Using a gun in self-protection is not a decision one makes lightly; in fact, I never dreamed that I would be forced into a situation where I would have to do so. However, I also never imagined such evil existing in the world so that I would be powerless, wounded, on my back and unable to physically force my attacker off of me.

I owned a gun and had been trained on how to use it. I know how to safely carry and that a gun is a serious and significant weapon; it is not to be used carelessly. Naysayers and people with opposing opinions may try to undermine my situation with hypotheticals. I cannot answer these questions. All I can do is tell the facts of my story and the true account of how I saved my own life.

*What I want you to know on Gun Awareness Day is that a gun in the hands of a potential victim is not improperly placed; it can be the only thing keeping her from being brutally raped and murdered. *

Without my gun, I would not be alive today.


*Guns are not the problem in America; men like my attacker -- who are willing to violently change one person’s life for no reason except for pure evil – are the problem.*

Be safe at all times. Be aware of your surroundings. Trust your instincts. Always be able to protect yourself. Refuse to be a victim, and instead be a fighter and a survivor. Live to tell your tale and make a criminal regret the day he chose you as a “soft target.” My gun saved my life, and one could save yours too.


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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This is a neat one.....3 male robbers, one woman with a gun.....do you see how this turned out.....?

CCW IN ACTION: Armed 22-Year-Old Woman Stops Three Men Attempting To Rob Her In Store Parking Lot – Concealed Nation

OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA — A concealed carrier successfully thwarted the efforts of three men to rob her late at night outside a Dollar Tree. According to police reports from the scene, the woman was exiting the Dollar Tree and heading to her car when she was approached by a man and asked to walk with him. When she refused, he point-blank told her he was going to rob her of her purse.
At this point, according to KOCO, she was presented by two other men backing up the first. She withdrew her concealed carry pistol from her purse and threatened to use it to protect herself. All three men quickly exited and fled the scene.


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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Notice that this woman was hit in the face by the attacker........and still managed to use her gun to drive off the attacker...

Woman Scares off Assailant With Stick. Just Kidding, it was a gun.

Just before 7pm on Wednesday night, a 29 year-old woman had gathered up her dog and headed outside to… well, to let her dog do what dogs do.

Upon her first step outside her Minot, North Dakota home, she was hit solidly in the face with a blunt object, knocking her backward down the stairs and into her home.

Her assailant followed her into her home and started to approach her, but the woman had made it to a cabinet where she retrieved a handgun to protect herself and her home.

When confronted with the firearm, the violent intruder and would-be robber/rapist/murderer fled the scene.

The smart, independent, gun-owning woman did not require medical attention, most likely due to the fact that she was able to pull a weapon on her assailant to end the attack.


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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Here is another good one.......again, not a Navy SEAL...

Police: Concealed Permit Holder Saves Officer Surrounded By Mob - Breitbart

*On February 5, an armed citizen saved an Upper Darby police officer who was under assault and encircled by a mob of onlookers.*
Upper Darby Police Superintendent Michael Chitwood said “there is no doubt they would have attacked” the officer without the armed citizen’s intervention.

According to Philly.com, the officer was breaking up a fight between two Upper Darby High School students–after school had let out for the day–and one of the students jumped the officer. Superintendent Chitwood said, “As he breaks up the fight, he takes one kid and then the other jumps [on] him. Now he’s fighting two of them and he’s calling for an assist officer at the same time. There’s a crowd of 40 or 50 kids watching the fight, and they all move in towards the officer.”

An area resident with a concealed carry permit saw the officer struggling and the crowd closing in, so he grabbed his gun and ran to the officer’s defense. The resident ordered the kids to get away from the officer and kept them away until sufficient backup arrived. Chitwood said, “He had the gun in his hand, but he didn’t point it at the kids, he just told them to back off. If this guy didn’t come out and come to the aid of the officer, this officer would have had significant problems.”

The officer who was under attack suffered “significant hand injuries” and the first officer to respond to calls for backup “suffered a major injury to a leg when he was kicked by one of the teens in the fight.”


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## 2aguy (May 3, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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I have to say..... you should really study gun self defense and how actual people use guns to stop violent criminals..... it might change your mind on the topic.....like this woman.... 3 men, all have guns...but she has one too....they first beat her with a gun

DGU of the Day: Trotwood Ohio Woman Defeats Three Home Invaders - The Truth About Guns

Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.

The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.

All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:

“I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”

In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.


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