# Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West.



## Mindful

The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be. 

In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again. 

Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.

Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology. 

Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West


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## Decus

The EU began as an economic bloc which should be its only role. Sadly German and French politicians pushed a social agenda for the EU, asking member countries to subordinate their sovereignty and culture along the way.

If you look carefully you will see the in France, Italy, Germany and many other EU member countries the rise of populism is in part fueled by citizens no longer willing to subordinate their culture and sovereignty to Brussels.

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## Mindful

Decus said:


> The EU began as an economic bloc which should be its only role. Sadly German and French politicians pushed a social agenda for the EU, asking member countries to subordinate their sovereignty and culture along the way.
> 
> If you look carefully you will see the in France, Italy, Germany and many other EU member countries the rise of populism is in part fueled by citizens no longer willing to subordinate their culture and sovereignty to Brussels.
> 
> .


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## Dogmaphobe

Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.

  It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.


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## Dan Stubbs

Mindful said:


> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West


*Letter from Europe about Europe.*

I live in Poland and I can tell you the amount of anti-government propaganda and very often blatant lies are spread about Poland in left-wing media in western EU, especially in German newspapers. Did you know that German papers wrote 3 or 4 articles on 'endangered democracy" in Poland and at the same time they "omitted" the attacks of Arabs and Africans on European women in Koln and Hamburg during New Year Eve 2015?
What you need to know is that, these are lies are often spread by Polish propaganda makers (I cannot call them journalists) from "Gazeta Wyborcza", "Newsweek"and some other newspapers, very loyal to Civic platform and former government. Also, Civic platform still has strong representation in Europarliament and there they act against Poland by encouraging debate about law and democracy in our country almost asking for foreign intervention. That's just disgusting what some traitorous politicians are willing to do to come back to power and regain all priviledges.
Democracy in Poland looks excellent. Western Europe with its suicidal political correctness, media censorship and absurd tolerance propaganda can learn from Poland what it means to have freedom of speech or freedom of assembly. You can see, how media works. We have many channels, "public television" which is of course pro-government, we have private networks (TVN, Polsat) and also plenty of internet media.
Believe, western Europe should be affraid of the "religion of peace" coming from Middle East than Polsih democracy alleged issues.


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## Dan Stubbs

Decus said:


> The EU began as an economic bloc which should be its only role. Sadly German and French politicians pushed a social agenda for the EU, asking member countries to subordinate their sovereignty and culture along the way.
> 
> If you look carefully you will see the in France, Italy, Germany and many other EU member countries the rise of populism is in part fueled by citizens no longer willing to subordinate their culture and sovereignty to Brussels.
> 
> .


Of course networks who make propaganda for „open mindedness“ are Soros-funded like ILGA (LGBTIQ rights), ENAR (European Network Against Racism), Anti Poverty Network, Women’s Lobby (OSF pay f.e. the secretary general) show how influence is exercised via umbrella organizations. One interesting detail is that the Chancellor’s wife Eveline is business partner of Niko Pelinka and his wife while his uncle Anton Pelinka is professor at the Soros funded Central European University in Budapest. Eveline Steinberger-Kern, Niko Pelinka and Markus Wagner created the „Innovation Club“ which connects Austrian entrepreneuers with Silicon Valley (which belongs to the deep state).


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## Dan Stubbs

Mindful said:


> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West


Democrat kingmaker George Soros is a long-time Clinton supporter and chairman of Hillary Clinton’s super PAC. He controls and funds hundreds of left-wing politicians and organizations through his Open Society Foundations, a series of non-transparent foundations and NGOs. In the US, his foundations have organized and funded left-wing organizations that seek to destroy America like Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter. Soros is also spending millions hiring professional anti-Trump protesters to initiate violence at Trump campaign events.
To advance the Islamic invasion of Europe, Soros is working aggressively to clamp down on free speech through a campaign to censor language in the European parliament. The leaked documents reveal a strategy to enact legislation that characterizes anti-Muslim language as hate speech punishable by imprisonment.

Newly enacted laws in Germany, that were secretly backed by Soros, ban the criticism of migrants. German authorities are raiding homes to enforce the legislation, which prohibits criticizing or insulting Muslims. German citizens who have posted anti-Muslim material on Facebook are being jailed because the government has decided the opinions being posted can be considered hate speech.

George Soros funds and controls hundreds of left-wing politicians and organizations through a network of non-transparent foundations and NGOs known as the Foundations For Open Society. The foundations within the Soros/Open Society network are generally considered the least transparent in the world. Thus, for decades Soros has hidden in the shadows and has avoided being scrutinized. The hackers who recently hacked the Soros and Open Society computer networks, publishing the documents they acquired, have provided startling insight into Soros evil goals and methods.


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## Coyote

Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.

https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/

In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service


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## Tommy Tainant

Coyote said:


> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service


Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.


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## Mindful

Tommy Tainant said:


> Coyote said:
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> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
Click to expand...


What does a "standard of living" even mean?


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## Tommy Tainant

Mindful said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
Click to expand...

Oh dear.


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## Mindful

Tommy Tainant said:


> Mindful said:
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> Tommy Tainant said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
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> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh dear.
Click to expand...


Ditto.


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## Decus

Mindful said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> Mindful said:
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> Tommy Tainant said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
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> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
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> Click to expand...
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> Oh dear.
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> Click to expand...
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> Ditto.
Click to expand...


If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.

New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.

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## Mindful

Decus said:


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> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
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> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
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> Click to expand...
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> Oh dear.
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> Click to expand...
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> Ditto.
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> Click to expand...
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> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there is some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Actually yes. I've been to Prague and Kraków. Poland...... like a blossoming flower, throwing off the yoke of Soviet communism.

I live in the west, and there is a pervading sense of atrophy.


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## Coyote

Decus said:


> Mindful said:
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> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
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> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh dear.
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> Click to expand...
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> Ditto.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Decus said:
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> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
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> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Oh dear.
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> Click to expand...
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> Ditto.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.
Click to expand...

They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool. 

A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .


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## Mindful

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
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> Decus said:
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> Tommy Tainant said:
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> Mindful said:
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> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
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> Oh dear.
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> Click to expand...
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> Ditto.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool.
> 
> A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .
Click to expand...


Anti terror units across Europe.






This is the way we live.


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## Dogmaphobe

Mindful said:


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> Oh dear.
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> Ditto.
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> Click to expand...
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> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool.
> 
> A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> Anti terror units across Europe.
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> This is the way we live.
Click to expand...

I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.


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## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


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> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool.
> 
> A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> Anti terror units across Europe.
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> This is the way we live.
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> Click to expand...
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> I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.
Click to expand...

So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


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> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
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> 
> Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool.
> 
> A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> Anti terror units across Europe.
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> This is the way we live.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?
Click to expand...

 Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.

Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.


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## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


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> Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.
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> They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool.
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> A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Anti terror units across Europe.
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> This is the way we live.
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> Click to expand...
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> I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
Click to expand...

You are not answering the question.

Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.

Do you or do you not support those rights?


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool.
> 
> A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti terror units across Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the way we live.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
Click to expand...

When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no. 

Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.

A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.


You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.

Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.


----------



## Mindful

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anti terror units across Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the way we live.
> 
> 
> 
> I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no.
> 
> Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.
> 
> A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.
> 
> 
> You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.
> 
> Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.
Click to expand...


Did you see the Israeli flag bring burnt in London today?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anti terror units across Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the way we live.
> 
> 
> 
> I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no.
> 
> Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.
> 
> A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.
> 
> 
> You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.
> 
> Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.
Click to expand...

*
Yes or no.*

You dont get to define what isnt or is a religion.  Not up to you.

I will make it a little easier for you.  Countries with the greatest degree of freedom are those with secular legal system that recognizes and protects human rights and freedoms.  So a person cant claim human sacrifice is part of his faith and practice it and claim religious freedom.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am utterly sickened by all the pieces of refuse living on the West who have dedicated themselves to assisting their Jihad.
> 
> 
> 
> So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no.
> 
> Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.
> 
> A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.
> 
> 
> You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.
> 
> Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Yes or no.*
> 
> You dont get to define what isnt or is a religion.  Not up to you.
> 
> I will make it a little easier for you.  Countries with the greatest degree of freedom are those with secular legal system that recognizes and protects human rights and freedoms.  So a person cant claim human sacrifice is part of his faith and practice it and claim religious freedom.
Click to expand...

The child rapists you support are following their so-called faith.

Mohammad ordered his fellow thieves torape the females of the lands they invaded and had sex with a very young child, himself.


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> The EU began as an economic bloc which should be its only role. Sadly German and French politicians pushed a social agenda for the EU, asking member countries to subordinate their sovereignty and culture along the way.
> 
> If you look carefully you will see the in France, Italy, Germany and many other EU member countries the rise of populism is in part fueled by citizens no longer willing to subordinate their culture and sovereignty to Brussels.
> 
> .



Or with other words: The ambassador of the USA Richard Grenell - and people like Steve Bannon or Stephen Miller - support in Europe and all over the world including the USA nationalistic Nazi-movements, great-again movements, isolationism movements, anti-globalisation movements, fake news movements an so on and so on ... on reason "divide et impera" ...


----------



## zaangalewa

Dogmaphobe said:


> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.



It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
_



_


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh dear.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


And what is the mistake of "western" Europe? To pay for and to stabalize this good way with money from the EU - but to lose Great Britain?


----------



## zaangalewa

Dan Stubbs said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West
> 
> 
> 
> *Letter from Europe about Europe.*
> 
> I live in Poland and I can tell you the amount of anti-government propaganda and very often blatant lies are spread about Poland in left-wing media in western EU, especially in German newspapers.
Click to expand...


Self printed German newspapers?



> Did you know that German papers wrote 3 or 4 articles on 'endangered democracy" in Poland and at the same time they "omitted" the attacks of Arabs and Africans on European women in Koln and Hamburg during New Year Eve 2015?



Your government tried and tries to overtake your courts for example. That's a serios danger for your democracy and for the quality of life. Or do you like to spend one day some years in custody because of wrong parking? And what had happend in Cologne by drunkard Arabs in 2015 is not a problem any longer. Meanwhile the most Arabs know very well that in Germany everyone has to respect women. And if someone doesn't know - or doesn't like to know - then we are ready to teach this very effective.



> What you need to know is that, these are lies are often spread by Polish propaganda makers (I cannot call them journalists) from "Gazeta Wyborcza", "Newsweek"and some other newspapers, very loyal to Civic platform and former government.



I don't know this newspaper - but it's normally a Nazi-attitude to speak always about "Lügenpresse" = "fake news press", when someone writes something, what they don't like to hear.



> Also, Civic platform still has strong representation in Europarliament and there they act against Poland by encouraging debate about law and democracy in our country almost asking for foreign intervention.



Very clear: The EU has to support democracies and not tyrannies.



> That's just disgusting what some traitorous politicians



"traitorous politicians" if often only a Nazi-attitude too. Did you ever hear the expression "opposition"?



> are willing to do to come back to power and regain all priviledges.



Solidarnosc (solidarity) tries to comes back? ...



> Democracy in Poland looks excellent.



No.



> Western Europe with its suicidal political correctness,



?



> media censorship and absurd tolerance propaganda can learn from Poland what it means to have freedom of speech or freedom of assembly.



?



> You can see, how media works. We have many channels, "public television" which is of course pro-government,



Of course pro-government? Why? Pays your government for with money from the taxpayers?



> we have private networks (TVN, Polsat) and also plenty of internet media.
> Believe, western Europe should be affraid of the "religion of peace" coming from Middle East than Polsih democracy alleged issues.
> 
> View attachment 277427


----------



## Meathead

Coyote said:


> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service


Do you think Eastern Europe wants a flood of immigrants from the religion of "peace" or the impoverished and diseased from Africa? If you do, there's something wrong with you.


----------



## zaangalewa

Mindful said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> https://www.freedomofconscience.eu/deterioration-of-religious-freedom-in-eastern-europe/
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
Click to expand...


To be able to live without fear in a good warm dry place with enough good food and educated friends who care for each other - also in times of sadness and sickness.



Mindful said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you travel through new EU member states the quality of life is often better than what you find in western Europe. All the same chains of stores are present in the new member states from fashion to hypermarkets and the cost of living is often less than in western Europe. Doctors still make house calls and there is a mix of private and public healthcare options at a very affordable cost with well-trained and educated personnel.  Some beautiful cities like Budapest, Prague and Krakow rival the beauty of western European cities and there are some very beautiful countryside and historic sites to visit.
> 
> New member states are not being dragged, they are moving forward not wishing to imitate the mistakes of western Europe.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Meanwhile they are cracking down on rights and freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are limiting the ability of those  you support who wish to destroy all rights and freedom forever by turning Europe into yet another Islamic cesspool.
> 
> A jackboot stomping upon the human face forever is the very antithesis of freedom .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Anti terror units across Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the way we live.
Click to expand...


Yea - terrorists - and everywhere public viewings. But who is who?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

zaangalewa said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
Click to expand...

I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.


----------



## Decus

Tommy Tainant said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
Click to expand...


Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.

.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Decus said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

So you advocate pogroms ? How very right wing of you.


----------



## zaangalewa

Tommy Tainant said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
Click to expand...


As far as I can see suggests the so called "Visigrad-Group" (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Ungaria) to be independent and they like to have Austria and Slowenia in their subunion. Macron suggested not a long time ago a kind of mediterranian Union. Then the rest (including England) would be a kind of North-Union (Scandinavia including Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Germany, Netherlands, England). I guess this will happen when the European nations lose more and more the ability to communicate with each other and continue to be not able to solve the most easy problems together. I wonder myselve why Viktor Orban is not in jail.

Orban tried by the way to install death penalty in Hungaria. If this had happened then Viktor Orban had excluded automatically Hungaria from the European Union. Not all values of the European Union are negotiable.


----------



## Decus

Tommy Tainant said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you advocate pogroms ? How very right wing of you.
Click to expand...


Being the lefty that you are I thought you'd want to take the lead, roll up your sleeves and show us how it's done.

Many individuals have started organizations to address issues that they feel are wrong. Many of these same individuals started with little or no money, just a burning desire to address something they felt was a problem.

Do you really care Tommy? If so, get to work.

.


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Any idea where your contempt for mankind comes from?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

zaangalewa said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As far as I can see suggests the so called "Visigrad-Group" (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Ungaria) to be independent and they like to have Austria and Slowenia in their subunion. Macron suggested not a long time ago a kind of mediterranian Union. Then the rest (including England) would be a kind of North-Union (Scandinavia including Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Germany, Netherlands, England). I guess this will happen when the European nations lose more and more the ability to communicate with each other and continue to be not able to solve the most easy problems together. I wonder myselve why Viktor Orban is not in jail.
> 
> Orban tried by the way to install death penalty in Hungaria. If this had happened then Viktor Orban had excluded automatically Hungaria from the European Union. Not all values of the European Union are negotiable.
Click to expand...

I am torn between thinking some of these places should be kicked out against the fact that contact be of benefit to those cultures.


----------



## Decus

zaangalewa said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any idea where your contempt for mankind comes from?
Click to expand...


My contempt is for whiners too lazy to make an effort. What have you done to fix the problem?

.


----------



## zaangalewa

Tommy Tainant said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As far as I can see suggests the so called "Visigrad-Group" (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Ungaria) to be independent and they like to have Austria and Slowenia in their subunion. Macron suggested not a long time ago a kind of mediterranian Union. Then the rest (including England) would be a kind of North-Union (Scandinavia including Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Germany, Netherlands, England). I guess this will happen when the European nations lose more and more the ability to communicate with each other and continue to be not able to solve the most easy problems together. I wonder myselve why Viktor Orban is not in jail.
> 
> Orban tried by the way to install death penalty in Hungaria. If this had happened then Viktor Orban had excluded automatically Hungaria from the European Union. Not all values of the European Union are negotiable.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am torn between thinking some of these places should be kicked out against the fact that contact be of benefit to those cultures.
Click to expand...


The most Brits learned the first time in their life something about the real European Union when the Brexit started - before it was always only a scapegoat for the mistakes of the British politicians - and now GB is not able to repeat this referendum, because the British society is divided in two irreconcilable opposites. And the USA is a country somewhere in the near of a civil war too. So what do you call "benefit"? How to convince everyone from common values as a basics for common deeds? I would say the EU is first of all a peace project - this means "we" will speak with everyone "unlimited" - because to speak is always better than to shoot. But this means not that everything is negotiable or a deal, how the modern world today says.


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any idea where your contempt for mankind comes from?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My contempt is for whiners
Click to expand...


Idiot. The ancient Greek heroes were continously whining ... and shining.



> too lazy to make an effort. What have you done to fix the problem?



Which problem?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

zaangalewa said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungarians suffered under the yoke of both communism and the Ottomans.
> 
> It is only natural for them to resist the machinations of Brussels which combines elements of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As far as I can see suggests the so called "Visigrad-Group" (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Ungaria) to be independent and they like to have Austria and Slowenia in their subunion. Macron suggested not a long time ago a kind of mediterranian Union. Then the rest (including England) would be a kind of North-Union (Scandinavia including Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Germany, Netherlands, England). I guess this will happen when the European nations lose more and more the ability to communicate with each other and continue to be not able to solve the most easy problems together. I wonder myselve why Viktor Orban is not in jail.
> 
> Orban tried by the way to install death penalty in Hungaria. If this had happened then Viktor Orban had excluded automatically Hungaria from the European Union. Not all values of the European Union are negotiable.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am torn between thinking some of these places should be kicked out against the fact that contact be of benefit to those cultures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The most Brits learned the first time in their life something about the real European Union when the Brexit started - before it was always only a scapegoat for the mistakes of the British politicians - and now GB is not able to repeat this referendum, because the British society is divided in two irreconcilable opposites. And the USA is a country somewhere in the near of a civil war too. So what do you call "benefit"? How to convince everyone from common values as a basics for common deeds? I would say the EU is first of all a peace project - this means "we" will speak with everyone "unlimited" - because to speak is always better than to shoot. But this means not that everything is negotiable or a deal, how the modern world today says.
Click to expand...

You should be able to travel and live anywhere in the EU and enjoy the same protections under the law. I would quarantine some places.Ulster for one.


----------



## Decus

zaangalewa said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any idea where your contempt for mankind comes from?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My contempt is for whiners
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Idiot. The ancient Greek heroes were continously whining ... and shining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> too lazy to make an effort. What have you done to fix the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which problem?
Click to expand...


Were the Greeks heroes because they were constantly whining? To be a hero you have to DO something not just whine.

Have you ever contributed an effort to addressing something you felt was a problem or do you just bitch and moan about what others should do?

.


----------



## zaangalewa

Tommy Tainant said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's idiotic how Hungaria is addicted in Viktor Orban and his very narrow minded point of view to the world: _"Everything for me - nothing for anyone else". _Meanwhile Hungaria fights even against the own poor people, instead to try to fight against poorness itselve. Orban makes whole Hungaria to his own Potemkin village. Slogan: _"What I do not see is not existing." _And the wide-spreaded anti-semitism in Hungaria is a shame for Hungaria on its own, more than 70 years after the holocaust.
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As far as I can see suggests the so called "Visigrad-Group" (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Ungaria) to be independent and they like to have Austria and Slowenia in their subunion. Macron suggested not a long time ago a kind of mediterranian Union. Then the rest (including England) would be a kind of North-Union (Scandinavia including Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Germany, Netherlands, England). I guess this will happen when the European nations lose more and more the ability to communicate with each other and continue to be not able to solve the most easy problems together. I wonder myselve why Viktor Orban is not in jail.
> 
> Orban tried by the way to install death penalty in Hungaria. If this had happened then Viktor Orban had excluded automatically Hungaria from the European Union. Not all values of the European Union are negotiable.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am torn between thinking some of these places should be kicked out against the fact that contact be of benefit to those cultures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The most Brits learned the first time in their life something about the real European Union when the Brexit started - before it was always only a scapegoat for the mistakes of the British politicians - and now GB is not able to repeat this referendum, because the British society is divided in two irreconcilable opposites. And the USA is a country somewhere in the near of a civil war too. So what do you call "benefit"? How to convince everyone from common values as a basics for common deeds? I would say the EU is first of all a peace project - this means "we" will speak with everyone "unlimited" - because to speak is always better than to shoot. But this means not that everything is negotiable or a deal, how the modern world today says.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You should be able to travel and live anywhere in the EU and enjoy the same protections under the law. I would quarantine some places.Ulster for one.
Click to expand...


Your word in gods ear.


Decus said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any idea where your contempt for mankind comes from?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My contempt is for whiners
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Idiot. The ancient Greek heroes were continously whining ... and shining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> too lazy to make an effort. What have you done to fix the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were the Greeks heroes because they were constantly whining?
Click to expand...


Yes.



> To be a hero you have to DO something not just whine.



A British lady and parliamentarian spoke just a few days ago about her fear to have to speak in front of extremistic football fans. I don't know why extremists  in Europe use sometimes the masquerade "football". But I understand her fear very well. It's a real danger. I see a heroe and realist in this woman. Whining and shining is the same in this case for example. Keeps the problem why many people don't see such lights. And why some people never will hear, what she has to say.



> Have you ever contributed an effort to addressing something you felt was a problem or do you just bitch and moan about what others should do?



I thought you are an idiot - and now I think you are an abstrahot. The difference is only marginal. Indeed I do not think the first one nor the second one. I lament only the unability of many human beings to be able to think in creative and constructive ways. I hate stereotypes and empty phrases. And I hate it when people try to undermine sensitivity. When someone educates himselve to a lout, then he will often not find the way back to an expressive behaviour with a wide spectrum of positive emotions and ideas in a leisurely round.


----------



## Decus

zaangalewa said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a documentary about the plight of Hungarian Gypsies a little while back. It was shameful stuff which Hitler would have applauded.
> At some point the EU need to take some action but I am not sure what that should be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I can see suggests the so called "Visigrad-Group" (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Ungaria) to be independent and they like to have Austria and Slowenia in their subunion. Macron suggested not a long time ago a kind of mediterranian Union. Then the rest (including England) would be a kind of North-Union (Scandinavia including Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Germany, Netherlands, England). I guess this will happen when the European nations lose more and more the ability to communicate with each other and continue to be not able to solve the most easy problems together. I wonder myselve why Viktor Orban is not in jail.
> 
> Orban tried by the way to install death penalty in Hungaria. If this had happened then Viktor Orban had excluded automatically Hungaria from the European Union. Not all values of the European Union are negotiable.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am torn between thinking some of these places should be kicked out against the fact that contact be of benefit to those cultures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The most Brits learned the first time in their life something about the real European Union when the Brexit started - before it was always only a scapegoat for the mistakes of the British politicians - and now GB is not able to repeat this referendum, because the British society is divided in two irreconcilable opposites. And the USA is a country somewhere in the near of a civil war too. So what do you call "benefit"? How to convince everyone from common values as a basics for common deeds? I would say the EU is first of all a peace project - this means "we" will speak with everyone "unlimited" - because to speak is always better than to shoot. But this means not that everything is negotiable or a deal, how the modern world today says.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You should be able to travel and live anywhere in the EU and enjoy the same protections under the law. I would quarantine some places.Ulster for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your word in gods ear.
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Send the Gypsies to live in Wales. Tommy will care for them as he is a man of action who deplores praying for a solution. Thank you Tommy.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any idea where your contempt for mankind comes from?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My contempt is for whiners
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Idiot. The ancient Greek heroes were continously whining ... and shining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> too lazy to make an effort. What have you done to fix the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were the Greeks heroes because they were constantly whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be a hero you have to DO something not just whine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A British lady and parliamentarian spoke just a few days ago about her fear to have to speak in front of extremistic football fans. I don't know why extremists  in Europe use sometimes the masquerade "football". But I understand her fear very well. It's a real danger. I see a heroe and realist in this woman. Whining and shining is the same in this case for example. Keeps the problem why many people don't see such lights. And why some people never will hear, what she has to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever contributed an effort to addressing something you felt was a problem or do you just bitch and moan about what others should do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought you are an idiot - and now I think you are an abstrahot. The difference is only marginal. Indeed I do not think the first one nor the second one. I lament only the unability of many human beings to be able to think in creative and constructive ways. I hate stereotypes and empty phrases. And I hate it when people try to undermine sensitivity. When someone educates himselve to a lout, then he will often not find the way back to an expressive behaviour with a wide spectrum of positive emotions and ideas in a leisurely round.
Click to expand...


Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT. You are a weak little thing, full of fear that complains and does NOTHING. Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy. If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.

.


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I can see suggests the so called "Visigrad-Group" (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Ungaria) to be independent and they like to have Austria and Slowenia in their subunion. Macron suggested not a long time ago a kind of mediterranian Union. Then the rest (including England) would be a kind of North-Union (Scandinavia including Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Germany, Netherlands, England). I guess this will happen when the European nations lose more and more the ability to communicate with each other and continue to be not able to solve the most easy problems together. I wonder myselve why Viktor Orban is not in jail.
> 
> Orban tried by the way to install death penalty in Hungaria. If this had happened then Viktor Orban had excluded automatically Hungaria from the European Union. Not all values of the European Union are negotiable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am torn between thinking some of these places should be kicked out against the fact that contact be of benefit to those cultures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The most Brits learned the first time in their life something about the real European Union when the Brexit started - before it was always only a scapegoat for the mistakes of the British politicians - and now GB is not able to repeat this referendum, because the British society is divided in two irreconcilable opposites. And the USA is a country somewhere in the near of a civil war too. So what do you call "benefit"? How to convince everyone from common values as a basics for common deeds? I would say the EU is first of all a peace project - this means "we" will speak with everyone "unlimited" - because to speak is always better than to shoot. But this means not that everything is negotiable or a deal, how the modern world today says.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You should be able to travel and live anywhere in the EU and enjoy the same protections under the law. I would quarantine some places.Ulster for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your word in gods ear.
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea where your contempt for mankind comes from?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My contempt is for whiners
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Idiot. The ancient Greek heroes were continously whining ... and shining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> too lazy to make an effort. What have you done to fix the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were the Greeks heroes because they were constantly whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be a hero you have to DO something not just whine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A British lady and parliamentarian spoke just a few days ago about her fear to have to speak in front of extremistic football fans. I don't know why extremists  in Europe use sometimes the masquerade "football". But I understand her fear very well. It's a real danger. I see a heroe and realist in this woman. Whining and shining is the same in this case for example. Keeps the problem why many people don't see such lights. And why some people never will hear, what she has to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever contributed an effort to addressing something you felt was a problem or do you just bitch and moan about what others should do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought you are an idiot - and now I think you are an abstrahot. The difference is only marginal. Indeed I do not think the first one nor the second one. I lament only the unability of many human beings to be able to think in creative and constructive ways. I hate stereotypes and empty phrases. And I hate it when people try to undermine sensitivity. When someone educates himselve to a lout, then he will often not find the way back to an expressive behaviour with a wide spectrum of positive emotions and ideas in a leisurely round.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT.
Click to expand...


And now try to tell me the same in my own language.



> You are a weak little thing,



Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.



> full of fear that complains and does NOTHING.



Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.



> Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy.



Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?



> If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.
> 
> .



Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you support cracking down on religious freedom and rights?
> 
> 
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no.
> 
> Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.
> 
> A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.
> 
> 
> You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.
> 
> Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Yes or no.*
> 
> You dont get to define what isnt or is a religion.  Not up to you.
> 
> I will make it a little easier for you.  Countries with the greatest degree of freedom are those with secular legal system that recognizes and protects human rights and freedoms.  So a person cant claim human sacrifice is part of his faith and practice it and claim religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The child rapists you support are following their so-called faith.
> 
> Mohammad ordered his fellow thieves torape the females of the lands they invaded and had sex with a very young child, himself.
Click to expand...


Dude, the Bible allowed child rape and child marriage.  Rape and the taking of slaves was routine and God commanded some pretty bad shit.  Old Testement. These are cultures of ancient times and those who continue to justify and practice that are to be condemned for the abusers they are.  Unlike you I detest child exploitation and abuse of any kind, whether it is in Pakistan, Uganda, within our own country (Christian priests and minister, or Larry Nasser, who you falsely claimed was Muslim) or currently, the treatment of children at our border.  Unlike you I don’t care what the ethnicity, race or religion of the perpetrators are and unlike you, I have talked about it.

The Muslims I know (probably more than you know) abhor it, abhor child marriage, and send their daughters to college. They do not consider child abuse part of their faith any more than you do and none are married to children.   They participate in the democratic process, follow the same rule of law that Christians and Jews. 

Meanwhile let’s see if we can an actual yes or no out of you.  You seem to be following your predictable pattern of insult and make up shit about your opponent to avoid answering.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
> 
> 
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no.
> 
> Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.
> 
> A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.
> 
> 
> You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.
> 
> Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Yes or no.*
> 
> You dont get to define what isnt or is a religion.  Not up to you.
> 
> I will make it a little easier for you.  Countries with the greatest degree of freedom are those with secular legal system that recognizes and protects human rights and freedoms.  So a person cant claim human sacrifice is part of his faith and practice it and claim religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The child rapists you support are following their so-called faith.
> 
> Mohammad ordered his fellow thieves torape the females of the lands they invaded and had sex with a very young child, himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dude, the Bible allowed child rape and child marriage.  Rape and the taking of slaves was routine and God commanded some pretty bad shit.  Old Testement. These are cultures of ancient times and those who continue to justify and practice that are to be condemned for the abusers they are.  Unlike you I detest child exploitation and abuse of any kind, whether it is in Pakistan, Uganda, within our own country (Christian priests and minister, or Larry Nasser, who you falsely claimed was Muslim) or currently, the treatment of children at our border.  Unlike you I don’t care what the ethnicity, race or religion of the perpetrators are and unlike you, I have talked about it.
> 
> The Muslims I know (probably more than you know) abhor it, abhor child marriage, and send their daughters to college. They do not consider child abuse part of their faith any more than you do and none are married to children.   They participate in the democratic process, follow the same rule of law that Christians and Jews.
> 
> Meanwhile let’s see if we can an actual yes or no out of you.  You seem to be following your predictable pattern of insult and make up shit about your opponent to avoid answering.
Click to expand...

 Jesus never raped any children, did not endorse sex with children and never endorsed rape. Mohammad, on the other hand, had sex with children, endorsed sex with children and order his warriors to rape. 

You have laughed on several occasions about the rape of British children because your fellow Muslims are doing so and so it is obviously YOU who judges such matters based upon ethnicity, race or religion, not me.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
> 
> 
> 
> When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no.
> 
> Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.
> 
> A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.
> 
> 
> You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.
> 
> Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Yes or no.*
> 
> You dont get to define what isnt or is a religion.  Not up to you.
> 
> I will make it a little easier for you.  Countries with the greatest degree of freedom are those with secular legal system that recognizes and protects human rights and freedoms.  So a person cant claim human sacrifice is part of his faith and practice it and claim religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The child rapists you support are following their so-called faith.
> 
> Mohammad ordered his fellow thieves torape the females of the lands they invaded and had sex with a very young child, himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dude, the Bible allowed child rape and child marriage.  Rape and the taking of slaves was routine and God commanded some pretty bad shit.  Old Testement. These are cultures of ancient times and those who continue to justify and practice that are to be condemned for the abusers they are.  Unlike you I detest child exploitation and abuse of any kind, whether it is in Pakistan, Uganda, within our own country (Christian priests and minister, or Larry Nasser, who you falsely claimed was Muslim) or currently, the treatment of children at our border.  Unlike you I don’t care what the ethnicity, race or religion of the perpetrators are and unlike you, I have talked about it.
> 
> The Muslims I know (probably more than you know) abhor it, abhor child marriage, and send their daughters to college. They do not consider child abuse part of their faith any more than you do and none are married to children.   They participate in the democratic process, follow the same rule of law that Christians and Jews.
> 
> Meanwhile let’s see if we can an actual yes or no out of you.  You seem to be following your predictable pattern of insult and make up shit about your opponent to avoid answering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus never raped any children, did not endorse sex with children and never endorsed rape. Mohammad, on the other hand, had sex with children, endorsed sex with children and order his warriors to rape.
> 
> You have laughed on several occasions about the rape of British children because your fellow Muslims are doing so and so it is obviously YOU who judges such matters based upon ethnicity, race or religion, not me.
Click to expand...

Still cant answer yes or no can you?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Still cant answer yes or no can you?




 Sure I can.

Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?


...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?


----------



## Decus

zaangalewa said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am torn between thinking some of these places should be kicked out against the fact that contact be of benefit to those cultures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most Brits learned the first time in their life something about the real European Union when the Brexit started - before it was always only a scapegoat for the mistakes of the British politicians - and now GB is not able to repeat this referendum, because the British society is divided in two irreconcilable opposites. And the USA is a country somewhere in the near of a civil war too. So what do you call "benefit"? How to convince everyone from common values as a basics for common deeds? I would say the EU is first of all a peace project - this means "we" will speak with everyone "unlimited" - because to speak is always better than to shoot. But this means not that everything is negotiable or a deal, how the modern world today says.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You should be able to travel and live anywhere in the EU and enjoy the same protections under the law. I would quarantine some places.Ulster for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your word in gods ear.
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> My contempt is for whiners
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Idiot. The ancient Greek heroes were continously whining ... and shining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> too lazy to make an effort. What have you done to fix the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were the Greeks heroes because they were constantly whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be a hero you have to DO something not just whine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A British lady and parliamentarian spoke just a few days ago about her fear to have to speak in front of extremistic football fans. I don't know why extremists  in Europe use sometimes the masquerade "football". But I understand her fear very well. It's a real danger. I see a heroe and realist in this woman. Whining and shining is the same in this case for example. Keeps the problem why many people don't see such lights. And why some people never will hear, what she has to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever contributed an effort to addressing something you felt was a problem or do you just bitch and moan about what others should do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought you are an idiot - and now I think you are an abstrahot. The difference is only marginal. Indeed I do not think the first one nor the second one. I lament only the unability of many human beings to be able to think in creative and constructive ways. I hate stereotypes and empty phrases. And I hate it when people try to undermine sensitivity. When someone educates himselve to a lout, then he will often not find the way back to an expressive behaviour with a wide spectrum of positive emotions and ideas in a leisurely round.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And now try to tell me the same in my own language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a weak little thing,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> full of fear that complains and does NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?
Click to expand...


You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous. 

.


----------



## Decus

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
Click to expand...


She is funny. China imprisons a million muslims and liberals like her say nothing. Rather they argue that we shouldn't make demands on China. Unfair trade practices or imprisoning muslims is China's business and we shouldn't meddle.

.


----------



## zaangalewa

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.
Click to expand...


So do you believe in a Calexit for example? In a sovereign state California without any influence from the USA?



> Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?



In Straßbourg the EU parliament is directly elected and In Brussel the managers are installed from the democratic members of the EU. And sure replaces Europe the culture of Europe whenever Europe likes to replace the culture of Europe. The lingua franka in Europe under the Romans was for example Greek - later the lingua franka in Europe was Latin for much more than thousand years  - a short time French was the lingua franka - and now English is since very short 50-100 years the lingua franka in Europe - but I fear we will need a new one after the Brexit. I would prefer a kind of simplified version of the Latin language. But why not to go back to the roots and to try to find or to create a simple celtic language?


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most Brits learned the first time in their life something about the real European Union when the Brexit started - before it was always only a scapegoat for the mistakes of the British politicians - and now GB is not able to repeat this referendum, because the British society is divided in two irreconcilable opposites. And the USA is a country somewhere in the near of a civil war too. So what do you call "benefit"? How to convince everyone from common values as a basics for common deeds? I would say the EU is first of all a peace project - this means "we" will speak with everyone "unlimited" - because to speak is always better than to shoot. But this means not that everything is negotiable or a deal, how the modern world today says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should be able to travel and live anywhere in the EU and enjoy the same protections under the law. I would quarantine some places.Ulster for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your word in gods ear.
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idiot. The ancient Greek heroes were continously whining ... and shining.
> 
> Which problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were the Greeks heroes because they were constantly whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be a hero you have to DO something not just whine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A British lady and parliamentarian spoke just a few days ago about her fear to have to speak in front of extremistic football fans. I don't know why extremists  in Europe use sometimes the masquerade "football". But I understand her fear very well. It's a real danger. I see a heroe and realist in this woman. Whining and shining is the same in this case for example. Keeps the problem why many people don't see such lights. And why some people never will hear, what she has to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever contributed an effort to addressing something you felt was a problem or do you just bitch and moan about what others should do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought you are an idiot - and now I think you are an abstrahot. The difference is only marginal. Indeed I do not think the first one nor the second one. I lament only the unability of many human beings to be able to think in creative and constructive ways. I hate stereotypes and empty phrases. And I hate it when people try to undermine sensitivity. When someone educates himselve to a lout, then he will often not find the way back to an expressive behaviour with a wide spectrum of positive emotions and ideas in a leisurely round.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And now try to tell me the same in my own language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a weak little thing,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> full of fear that complains and does NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."

_


----------



## Decus

zaangalewa said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> You should be able to travel and live anywhere in the EU and enjoy the same protections under the law. I would quarantine some places.Ulster for one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your word in gods ear.
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were the Greeks heroes because they were constantly whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be a hero you have to DO something not just whine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A British lady and parliamentarian spoke just a few days ago about her fear to have to speak in front of extremistic football fans. I don't know why extremists  in Europe use sometimes the masquerade "football". But I understand her fear very well. It's a real danger. I see a heroe and realist in this woman. Whining and shining is the same in this case for example. Keeps the problem why many people don't see such lights. And why some people never will hear, what she has to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever contributed an effort to addressing something you felt was a problem or do you just bitch and moan about what others should do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought you are an idiot - and now I think you are an abstrahot. The difference is only marginal. Indeed I do not think the first one nor the second one. I lament only the unability of many human beings to be able to think in creative and constructive ways. I hate stereotypes and empty phrases. And I hate it when people try to undermine sensitivity. When someone educates himselve to a lout, then he will often not find the way back to an expressive behaviour with a wide spectrum of positive emotions and ideas in a leisurely round.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And now try to tell me the same in my own language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a weak little thing,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> full of fear that complains and does NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."
> 
> _
Click to expand...



"There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither works."

You must be cute because you are just too funny.

.
_
_


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your word in gods ear.
> Yes.
> 
> A British lady and parliamentarian spoke just a few days ago about her fear to have to speak in front of extremistic football fans. I don't know why extremists  in Europe use sometimes the masquerade "football". But I understand her fear very well. It's a real danger. I see a heroe and realist in this woman. Whining and shining is the same in this case for example. Keeps the problem why many people don't see such lights. And why some people never will hear, what she has to say.
> 
> I thought you are an idiot - and now I think you are an abstrahot. The difference is only marginal. Indeed I do not think the first one nor the second one. I lament only the unability of many human beings to be able to think in creative and constructive ways. I hate stereotypes and empty phrases. And I hate it when people try to undermine sensitivity. When someone educates himselve to a lout, then he will often not find the way back to an expressive behaviour with a wide spectrum of positive emotions and ideas in a leisurely round.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And now try to tell me the same in my own language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a weak little thing,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> full of fear that complains and does NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> "There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither works."
> 
> You must be cute because you are just too funny.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Weird. As well the stupidity of this form to avoid critics - as well the cluelessness about women. no: Women are not a superstupid extraterrestrian species, who you have not to understand,  because you are pseudo-male idiot. By the way: Do you know what for the white knight on the white horse fought against what kind of evil dragon? Because he liked to win a princess? Totally wrong. He left for a short time his monastery to fight a last fight for her love and her free choice to select her husband on her own free will - without any paternalism from anyone else. Your respectless chatter against women is a shame for the education in the whole orient and occident.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
Click to expand...


That wasn't the question.  Try again.


----------



## Meathead

zaangalewa said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And now try to tell me the same in my own language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a weak little thing,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> full of fear that complains and does NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> "There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither works."
> 
> You must be cute because you are just too funny.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Weird. As well the stupidity of this form to avoid critics - as well the cluelessness about women. no: Women are not a superstupid extraterrestrian species, who you have not to understand,  because you are pseudo-male idiot. By the way: Do you know what for the white knight on the white horse fought against what kind of evil dragon? Because he liked to win a princess? Totally wrong. He left for a short time his monastery to fight a last fight for her love and her free choice to select her husband on her own free will - without any paternalism from anyone else. Your respectless chatter against women is a shame for the education in the whole orient and occident.
Click to expand...

Sometimes dingbats can be endearing. There are other times though they come off as plain stupid.


----------



## Coyote

Decus said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She is funny. China imprisons a million muslims and liberals like her say nothing. Rather they argue that we shouldn't make demands on China. Unfair trade practices or imprisoning muslims is China's business and we shouldn't meddle.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


You are kind of funny.  I have a lot to say on China's human rights violations and have. Perhaps you dont borher to read people's posts before making assumptions.

Why do you suppose Dogmaphobe is incapable of answering a some direct question?


----------



## Decus

zaangalewa said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop trying to justify your inability to ACT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And now try to tell me the same in my own language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a weak little thing,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> full of fear that complains and does NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck sensitivity, sympathy and empathy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel something is wrong roll up your sleeves and WORK to change it.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> "There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither works."
> 
> You must be cute because you are just too funny.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Weird. As well the stupidity of this form to avoid critics - as well the cluelessness about women. no: Women are not a superstupid extraterrestrian species, who you have not to understand,  because you are pseudo-male idiot. By the way: Do you know what for the white knight on the white horse fought against what kind of evil dragon? Because he liked to win a princess? Totally wrong. He left for a short time his monastery to fight a last fight for her love and her free choice to select her husband on her own free will - without any paternalism from anyone else. Your respectless chatter against women is a shame for the education in the whole orient and occident.
Click to expand...


Sounds like you found your white knight. Good for you.

.


----------



## Decus

Coyote said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She is funny. China imprisons a million muslims and liberals like her say nothing. Rather they argue that we shouldn't make demands on China. Unfair trade practices or imprisoning muslims is China's business and we shouldn't meddle.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are kind of funny.  I have a lot to say on China's human rights violations and have. Perhaps you dont borher to read people's posts before making assumptions.
> 
> Why do you suppose Dogmaphobe is incapable of answering a some direct question?
Click to expand...


Sorry but I missed your outrage regarding China's religious intolerance. The Chinese have sent more than a million muslims to internment camps. Would you support sanctions against China until they release the muslims?  

.


----------



## zaangalewa

Meathead said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now try to tell me the same in my own language.
> 
> Hmm - Netherlanders and Germans are the Massai of Europe.
> 
> Less than nothing, please. I speak with you.
> 
> Indeed sensitivity, sympathy and empathy are a good base for sexual intercorse. But are you sure you know what "to fuck" really is? Did your Mom speak with you about what bees and flowers are doing to make little baby flowers?
> 
> Funny idea. I will for sure not drive to the USA, collect all weapons of all criminals and idiots, who are dangerous for all others there - specially for the US-American children - and pack them in a rocket and fire this rocket into the sun. What about if you do so?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> "There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither works."
> 
> You must be cute because you are just too funny.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Weird. As well the stupidity of this form to avoid critics - as well the cluelessness about women. no: Women are not a superstupid extraterrestrian species, who you have not to understand,  because you are pseudo-male idiot. By the way: Do you know what for the white knight on the white horse fought against what kind of evil dragon? Because he liked to win a princess? Totally wrong. He left for a short time his monastery to fight a last fight for her love and her free choice to select her husband on her own free will - without any paternalism from anyone else. Your respectless chatter against women is a shame for the education in the whole orient and occident.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sometimes dingbats can be endearing. There are other times though they come off as plain stupid.
Click to expand...


No idea what you like to say with this two sentences.


----------



## Decus

zaangalewa said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are a woman. I didn't realize this until reading your last post. Please forgive me it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."
> 
> _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> "There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither works."
> 
> You must be cute because you are just too funny.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Weird. As well the stupidity of this form to avoid critics - as well the cluelessness about women. no: Women are not a superstupid extraterrestrian species, who you have not to understand,  because you are pseudo-male idiot. By the way: Do you know what for the white knight on the white horse fought against what kind of evil dragon? Because he liked to win a princess? Totally wrong. He left for a short time his monastery to fight a last fight for her love and her free choice to select her husband on her own free will - without any paternalism from anyone else. Your respectless chatter against women is a shame for the education in the whole orient and occident.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sometimes dingbats can be endearing. There are other times though they come off as plain stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No idea what you like to say with this two sentences.
Click to expand...


He is saying that you are stupid. In the interest of full disclosure, I also think you are stupid. I hope you can forgive my honesty.

.


----------



## zaangalewa

Decus said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Better to be a proud woman than to be a male idiot, who has not any insight into human nature, because he prefers to use his negative opinions about women like a sword. But every wise woman and educated man will tell you the same: _"Who takes a woman like a sword or with a sword will fall by the own willy_ _... or by a sister - ah sorry: scissor - without the own willy."
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither works."
> 
> You must be cute because you are just too funny.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Weird. As well the stupidity of this form to avoid critics - as well the cluelessness about women. no: Women are not a superstupid extraterrestrian species, who you have not to understand,  because you are pseudo-male idiot. By the way: Do you know what for the white knight on the white horse fought against what kind of evil dragon? Because he liked to win a princess? Totally wrong. He left for a short time his monastery to fight a last fight for her love and her free choice to select her husband on her own free will - without any paternalism from anyone else. Your respectless chatter against women is a shame for the education in the whole orient and occident.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sometimes dingbats can be endearing. There are other times though they come off as plain stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No idea what you like to say with this two sentences.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is saying that you are stupid.
Click to expand...


Aha. Complex sentences for such a message



> In the interest of full disclosure,







> I also think you are stupid.



Do I smell some sulphurous vapours now?



> I hope you can forgive my honesty.
> 
> .



Much more worse: I'm not able to take you serios. So I would not know what to forgive. Your behaviour in context "women" is for sure not acceptable - from no one who lives in the traditions of a Celto-Germanic culture since latest the time of Charlesmagne.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
Click to expand...



Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?

You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.

The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
Click to expand...


It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...

Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.

So what is it, yes or no?


----------



## Coyote

Decus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She is funny. China imprisons a million muslims and liberals like her say nothing. Rather they argue that we shouldn't make demands on China. Unfair trade practices or imprisoning muslims is China's business and we shouldn't meddle.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are kind of funny.  I have a lot to say on China's human rights violations and have. Perhaps you dont borher to read people's posts before making assumptions.
> 
> Why do you suppose Dogmaphobe is incapable of answering a some direct question?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry but I missed your outrage regarding China's religious intolerance. The Chinese have sent more than a million muslims to internment camps. Would you support sanctions against China until they release the muslims?
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Yes.

China is secretly imprisoning close to 1 million people [Uighur Muslims]


----------



## Baron

Mindful said:


> T In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> t



because western counterparts more brainwashed by western leftists vile lying  presstitutes. Eastern folks can well think for themselves


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
Click to expand...

First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.

You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
Click to expand...




Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still cant answer yes or no can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
Click to expand...

Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
> 
> Yes, I believe in National sovereignty.    Why don't you?
> 
> 
> ...… and No, I do not believe unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels should have the power to destroy entire cultures by pumping in millions of primitives who want to replace the existing cultures with their own.  Why do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?
Click to expand...

I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.

Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That wasn't the question.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.
> 
> Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.
Click to expand...


So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?

Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is 911, I'm sure you are out celebrating so this can wait for tomorrow, but why do you support the destruction of all the indigenous cultures of Europe?
> 
> You have yet to even admit you are a Muslim, yet have devoted tens of thousands of postings across multiple boards to your rhetorical Jihad.
> 
> The diversity of Western culture is worth preserving, whether or not you want it replaced with the culture of those who worship a child molesting serial rapist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.
> 
> Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
Click to expand...

A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.
> 
> Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
Click to expand...


That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version. 

Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.
> 
> Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
Click to expand...

Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It’s been what...three days (?) since I asked you a very simple yes or no question: do you support religious freedom.  In that time you have obfuscated, ducked, dodged, redirected into predictable personal attacks, and...
> 
> Still haven’t answered.  Honestly I forgot about this thread and figured you had off’d yourself in the midst of a pornographic delirium.
> 
> So what is it, yes or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, you express the attitude that your fellow Muslims raping  children is funny and now you talk about my committing suicide by pornography.
> 
> You are a perfect example to illustrate why your depraved cult should not be allowed to infest the civilized world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.
> 
> Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
Click to expand...


So what would you call for in the United States to address this “cult”?

A direct question....wonder if I will get a direct answer..


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief, you popped up again.  Do you have an answer yet?  Do you support religious freedom?
> 
> 
> 
> I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.
> 
> Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
Click to expand...


No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I Support religious freedom for those who support religious freedom.
> 
> Your supremacist cult is out to destroy the religious freedom of all others,  so doesn't qualify.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
Click to expand...

You have stated no facts, Islamist.

Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.

Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.


----------



## Mindful

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
> 
> 
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
Click to expand...


So you've run into him? At last.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Mindful said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you've run into him? At last.
Click to expand...

Those tales he spins about the manipulative Jew are as popular today as they were in the 1930s.

No wonder some of the management of usmessageboard agrees with him .


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So would you parse out the religions you believe do not support religious freedom or would you just target individuals for persecution?
> 
> Isn’t it better to simply support religious freedom knowing that the constitutions of most developed countries protect citizens from the excesses of any religion?
> 
> 
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
Click to expand...


Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.





 No need to apologize, subhuman, but I might point out that Jews were around for 2000 years before the mass murdering serial rapist created the destructive cult of which you appear to be a member.  Perhaps it is all the dedicated inbreeding your cult engages in that is responsible for such mental degradation as you display, but if Jews indulged in proselytizing, logic would dictate there would be magnitudes more of them by now. 

 Perhaps if those of your cult would spend less attention on all that inbreeding as well as that sick Jew hatred of yours and more attention on improving yourselves, you might find that you no longer need to blame a tiny minority for all your considerable failures.


----------



## Mindful

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> A cult out to destroy religious freedom should be treated for what it is - a cult out to destroy religious freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
Click to expand...


They all bring in the Khazans, sooner or later.

Jews are not permitted to proselytise.


Boy.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Mindful said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They all bring in the Khazans, sooner or later.
> 
> Jews are not permitted to proselytise.
> 
> 
> Boy.
Click to expand...



Once a creature decides to scapegoat Jews for all its own deficiencies, all reason goes out the window.

 There are 14-15 million Jews in the world and Judaism has been around for 3500 years.  There are now close to 2 BILLION Muslims, and the cult has been around less than half as long.

 A person would have to be utterly retarded to think it is Jews who have been the ones adding to their ranks in an aggressive fashion, not Muslims.

So


----------



## Mindful

Dogmaphobe said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They all bring in the Khazans, sooner or later.
> 
> Jews are not permitted to proselytise.
> 
> 
> Boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once a creature decides to scapegoat Jews for all its own deficiencies, all reason goes out the window.
> 
> There are 14-15 million Jews in the world and Judaism has been around for 3500 years.  There are now close to 2 BILLION Muslims, and the cult has been around less than half as long.
> 
> A person would have to be utterly retarded to think it is Jews who have been the ones adding to their ranks in an aggressive fashion, not Muslims.
> 
> So
Click to expand...


Well; you know his sort. We've run into them so many times.

All of them parroting out the identical prose.


----------



## ESay

Vagabond63 said:


> ; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria


These examples can't be considered as the ones of forcible conversion to Judaism. At least in Khazaria the role of Judaism is over-estimated. Only a part of ruling elite converted to this religion and there were no forcible convertions of the masses.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Mindful said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> 
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They all bring in the Khazans, sooner or later.
> 
> Jews are not permitted to proselytise.
> 
> 
> Boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once a creature decides to scapegoat Jews for all its own deficiencies, all reason goes out the window.
> 
> There are 14-15 million Jews in the world and Judaism has been around for 3500 years.  There are now close to 2 BILLION Muslims, and the cult has been around less than half as long.
> 
> A person would have to be utterly retarded to think it is Jews who have been the ones adding to their ranks in an aggressive fashion, not Muslims.
> 
> So
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well; you know his sort. We've run into them so many times.
> 
> All of them parroting out the identical prose.
Click to expand...




Mindful said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> 
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They all bring in the Khazans, sooner or later.
> 
> Jews are not permitted to proselytise.
> 
> 
> Boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once a creature decides to scapegoat Jews for all its own deficiencies, all reason goes out the window.
> 
> There are 14-15 million Jews in the world and Judaism has been around for 3500 years.  There are now close to 2 BILLION Muslims, and the cult has been around less than half as long.
> 
> A person would have to be utterly retarded to think it is Jews who have been the ones adding to their ranks in an aggressive fashion, not Muslims.
> 
> So
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well; you know his sort. We've run into them so many times.
> 
> All of them parroting out the identical prose.
Click to expand...



Those themes of the manipulative Jew are responsible for the extermination of 6 million innocent people.

Subhumans of today repeat the themes hoping for the same results.


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to apologize, subhuman, but I might point out that Jews were around for 2000 years before the mass murdering serial rapist created the destructive cult of which you appear to be a member.  Perhaps it is all the dedicated inbreeding your cult engages in that is responsible for such mental degradation as you display, but if Jews indulged in proselytizing, logic would dictate there would be magnitudes more of them by now.
> 
> Perhaps if those of your cult would spend less attention on all that inbreeding as well as that sick Jew hatred of yours and more attention on improving yourselves, you might find that you no longer need to blame a tiny minority for all your considerable failures.
Click to expand...


There's really no need to hammer home the fact of your collossal ignorance of history; but as they say, "you can lead a horse..."

Interesting use of language, however, "subhuman"? Did you know the same word in German is "untermensch"; seems you are channelling your deep rooted Nazism, how very dogmatic of you.


----------



## Vagabond63

Mindful said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That sentiment applies to every monotheistic religious group, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Every monotheistic group competes with every other religious group to convince everyone that their version of "god" is the only true version.
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They all bring in the Khazans, sooner or later.
> 
> Jews are not permitted to proselytise.
> 
> 
> Boy.
Click to expand...


In the modern era, yes, but that's not true of Judaism in the past, just Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria" there's plenty of Jewish historians who have written on these topics if you don't believe non-Jewish sources.

Oh, I think you meant to write "Goy", but hit the "b" key by mistake, never mind, easily done as the keys are so close together.


----------



## Vagabond63

ESay said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria
> 
> 
> 
> These examples can't be considered as the ones of forcible conversion to Judaism. At least in Khazaria the role of Judaism is over-estimated. Only a part of ruling elite converted to this religion and there were no forcible convertions of the masses.
Click to expand...


I never said they were "examples" of forcible conversion, however, they were examples of Jewish proselytisation success stories. Oh, and I agree that Khazaria is the subject of much heated debate on just how "jewish" it was; a debate which doesn't belong in a thread on Europe.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to apologize, subhuman, but I might point out that Jews were around for 2000 years before the mass murdering serial rapist created the destructive cult of which you appear to be a member.  Perhaps it is all the dedicated inbreeding your cult engages in that is responsible for such mental degradation as you display, but if Jews indulged in proselytizing, logic would dictate there would be magnitudes more of them by now.
> 
> Perhaps if those of your cult would spend less attention on all that inbreeding as well as that sick Jew hatred of yours and more attention on improving yourselves, you might find that you no longer need to blame a tiny minority for all your considerable failures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's really no need to hammer home the fact of your collossal ignorance of history; but as they say, "you can lead a horse..."
> 
> Interesting use of language, however, "subhuman"? Did you know the same word in German is "untermensch"; seems you are channelling your deep rooted Nazism, how very dogmatic of you.
Click to expand...

What makes you a subhuman is the fact that you are a worthless subhuman and has nothing to do with your ethnicity.

 Nice attempt at the trunspeak the Nazi's taught your fellow Islamists, though.  You are the one repeating Nazi rhetoric about Jews, not me.


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to apologize, subhuman, but I might point out that Jews were around for 2000 years before the mass murdering serial rapist created the destructive cult of which you appear to be a member.  Perhaps it is all the dedicated inbreeding your cult engages in that is responsible for such mental degradation as you display, but if Jews indulged in proselytizing, logic would dictate there would be magnitudes more of them by now.
> 
> Perhaps if those of your cult would spend less attention on all that inbreeding as well as that sick Jew hatred of yours and more attention on improving yourselves, you might find that you no longer need to blame a tiny minority for all your considerable failures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's really no need to hammer home the fact of your collossal ignorance of history; but as they say, "you can lead a horse..."
> 
> Interesting use of language, however, "subhuman"? Did you know the same word in German is "untermensch"; seems you are channelling your deep rooted Nazism, how very dogmatic of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What makes you a subhuman is the fact that you are a worthless subhuman and has nothing to do with your ethnicity.
> 
> Nice attempt at the trunspeak the Nazi's taught your fellow Islamists, though.  You are the one repeating Nazi rhetoric about Jews, not me.
Click to expand...

You used the word "subhuman" (untermensch in German), that's either channelling your own deep rooted Nazism, or alternately projecting your own lack of humanity onto others.


----------



## ESay

Vagabond63 said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria
> 
> 
> 
> These examples can't be considered as the ones of forcible conversion to Judaism. At least in Khazaria the role of Judaism is over-estimated. Only a part of ruling elite converted to this religion and there were no forcible convertions of the masses.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never said they were "examples" of forcible conversion, however, they were examples of Jewish proselytisation success stories. Oh, and I agree that Khazaria is the subject of much heated debate on just how "jewish" it was; a debate which doesn't belong in a thread on Europe.
Click to expand...

I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.

Judaism is against prolitezation. They think Judaism is for Jews and this is established by God. For others there is Noahide law (if I call this properly).


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to apologize, subhuman, but I might point out that Jews were around for 2000 years before the mass murdering serial rapist created the destructive cult of which you appear to be a member.  Perhaps it is all the dedicated inbreeding your cult engages in that is responsible for such mental degradation as you display, but if Jews indulged in proselytizing, logic would dictate there would be magnitudes more of them by now.
> 
> Perhaps if those of your cult would spend less attention on all that inbreeding as well as that sick Jew hatred of yours and more attention on improving yourselves, you might find that you no longer need to blame a tiny minority for all your considerable failures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's really no need to hammer home the fact of your collossal ignorance of history; but as they say, "you can lead a horse..."
> 
> Interesting use of language, however, "subhuman"? Did you know the same word in German is "untermensch"; seems you are channelling your deep rooted Nazism, how very dogmatic of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What makes you a subhuman is the fact that you are a worthless subhuman and has nothing to do with your ethnicity.
> 
> Nice attempt at the trunspeak the Nazi's taught your fellow Islamists, though.  You are the one repeating Nazi rhetoric about Jews, not me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You used the word "subhuman" (untermensch in German), that's either channelling your own deep rooted Nazism, or alternately projecting your own lack of humanity onto others.
Click to expand...

I used subhuman to refer to you, and not an entire group of people.

You are beneath the minimum standards to be considered such because of your sick beliefs, and not your ethnicity.


----------



## Mindful

Vagabond63 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sheer stupidity coupled with antisemitism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, just stating facts, something you are clearly afraid of, my alethiophobic friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have stated no facts, Islamist.
> 
> Islam is quite different than Christianity or Judaism on any of a number of fronts. Far from seeking world domination, Judaism does not even seek converts and it is very difficult to join.
> 
> Your quip about Manipulative Jews is pure antisemitism .I see You found a fellow antisemite to agree, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sincere apologies, it seems I completely underestimated the colossal scale of your ignorance of world history. It would take far too long to educate you, assuming I had the time and inclination to do so, but Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria”; Look up “Spread of Islam”;” The Crusades”,” Wars of Religion”, more recently, look up AIPAC influence in America, with reference to the Gulf Wars and Israeli interference in British politics. Cure your aletiophobia and stop spouting dogma, there's a good boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They all bring in the Khazans, sooner or later.
> 
> Jews are not permitted to proselytise.
> 
> 
> Boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In the modern era, yes, but that's not true of Judaism in the past, just Google “Jewish persecution of early Christianity” and references to Judaism’s proselytising and conversion of others, forced circumcision; look up “Himyar”, “Kahina” and “Khazaria" there's plenty of Jewish historians who have written on these topics if you don't believe non-Jewish sources.
> 
> Oh, I think you meant to write "Goy", but hit the "b" key by mistake, never mind, easily done as the keys are so close together.
Click to expand...


Don't bother.


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> I used subhuman to refer to you, and not an entire group of people.
> 
> You are beneath the minimum standards to be considered such because of your sick beliefs, and not your ethnicity.



My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?

Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.


----------



## Vagabond63

ESay said:


> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.



Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.



ESay said:


> Judaism is against prolitezation.


Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.


----------



## Coyote

Vagabond63 said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism is against prolitezation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
Click to expand...

Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used subhuman to refer to you, and not an entire group of people.
> 
> You are beneath the minimum standards to be considered such because of your sick beliefs, and not your ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?
> 
> Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.
Click to expand...

I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.

You are.


----------



## ESay

Vagabond63 said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism is against prolitezation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
Click to expand...

I didn't know for that. Actually, I thought the quite opposite, that only in the modern times liberal branches of Judaism accept new comers easily.


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used subhuman to refer to you, and not an entire group of people.
> 
> You are beneath the minimum standards to be considered such because of your sick beliefs, and not your ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?
> 
> Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.
> 
> You are.
Click to expand...

Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.


----------



## Vagabond63

Coyote said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism is against prolitezation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
Click to expand...

Not sure, it's possible, but I think it's a more modern phenomenon.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Turning a western country into an Islamist hellhole is not a right.
> 
> Any sovereign country should have the right to refuse entry to those who wish to destroy its culture and replace it with one that is primitive.
> 
> 
> 
> You are not answering the question.
> 
> Freedom of all to follow the faith of their choice, and not be persecuted for it.
> 
> Do you or do you not support those rights?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When practicing a so-called "faith" involves sedidious political behavior, no.
> 
> Just because we call an all-encompassing supremacist ideology a religion, that does not mean that the supremacists should be free to take over.
> 
> A country has ever right to place sensible limits on the ability of invaders to just have their way with things.
> 
> 
> You and all other jihadists are simply trying to use Western freedoms to destroy it so you turn us from Dar am Herb to Dar am Islam .  Once you are successful, there will BE no freedom.
> 
> Your faux concern for freedom only extends to your fellow Islamists. Your continual laughing over the massive number of British children your people are raping is proof of this. You simply do not care about the lives nor the cultures of those living in Western liberal societies - only your fellow Islamists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Yes or no.*
> 
> You dont get to define what isnt or is a religion.  Not up to you.
> 
> I will make it a little easier for you.  Countries with the greatest degree of freedom are those with secular legal system that recognizes and protects human rights and freedoms.  So a person cant claim human sacrifice is part of his faith and practice it and claim religious freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The child rapists you support are following their so-called faith.
> 
> Mohammad ordered his fellow thieves torape the females of the lands they invaded and had sex with a very young child, himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dude, the Bible allowed child rape and child marriage.  Rape and the taking of slaves was routine and God commanded some pretty bad shit.  Old Testement. These are cultures of ancient times and those who continue to justify and practice that are to be condemned for the abusers they are.  Unlike you I detest child exploitation and abuse of any kind, whether it is in Pakistan, Uganda, within our own country (Christian priests and minister, or Larry Nasser, who you falsely claimed was Muslim) or currently, the treatment of children at our border.  Unlike you I don’t care what the ethnicity, race or religion of the perpetrators are and unlike you, I have talked about it.
> 
> The Muslims I know (probably more than you know) abhor it, abhor child marriage, and send their daughters to college. They do not consider child abuse part of their faith any more than you do and none are married to children.   They participate in the democratic process, follow the same rule of law that Christians and Jews.
> 
> Meanwhile let’s see if we can an actual yes or no out of you.  You seem to be following your predictable pattern of insult and make up shit about your opponent to avoid answering.
Click to expand...


Now now,
You Linada _"take their vaginas out"_ Sarsour wanna-be's are gonna tell us what the Hebrew Bible actually says, and what should be condemned?

In Hebrew,  there's an idiom describing exactly this vulgar vitriolic behavior - "Has though murdered and also inherited?"

Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism is against prolitezation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
Click to expand...


Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
 or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?

Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.

Capiche?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used subhuman to refer to you, and not an entire group of people.
> 
> You are beneath the minimum standards to be considered such because of your sick beliefs, and not your ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?
> 
> Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.
> 
> You are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.
Click to expand...

There was no leap, filth.

You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.


----------



## ESay

rylah said:


> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.


If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society. 

What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?


----------



## rylah

ESay said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
Click to expand...


No such animal possible.
Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.

In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.

There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.

Educate Yourself with the basics.


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used subhuman to refer to you, and not an entire group of people.
> 
> You are beneath the minimum standards to be considered such because of your sick beliefs, and not your ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?
> 
> Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.
> 
> You are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was no leap, filth.
> 
> You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.
Click to expand...

Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad. 

Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.


----------



## ESay

rylah said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
Click to expand...

Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules. 

Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.


----------



## rylah

ESay said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
Click to expand...


I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.

For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*

If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.

Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.

Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.

As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.

In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used subhuman to refer to you, and not an entire group of people.
> 
> You are beneath the minimum standards to be considered such because of your sick beliefs, and not your ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?
> 
> Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.
> 
> You are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was no leap, filth.
> 
> You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.
> 
> Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.
Click to expand...

Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.


----------



## ESay

rylah said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.
Click to expand...

I am glad that in Judaism there is a system of balancing between religious extremism and the common sense, really. Frankly, there was time when I considered Judaism as a primitive and purely tribal religion. But afterwads I changed my mind significantly. But there are sevral things that confuse me. 

And one if these things is Orthodox movements. I live in a country that annually accepts tens of thousands of Hasids which celebrate Rosh Hashana. I am talking about so called Lubavic Hasids. And there is mostly negative view of them among some people who claim to have encountered them. They are accused of agressive behaviour, conflicting with locals, littering and the like. I dont know how fair these accusations are overall, though. 

What is my point. There exist some groups of people which can be considered as the strictest adherents to one or another religion, true followers. And basically are examples of what the religion represents. Can these group of Hasids be considered as true followers and what your opinion is about them?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism is against prolitezation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
Click to expand...


Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.


Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.

Who Is A Jew?
*Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
*According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.


Born to a non-Jewish mother
The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*

My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism is against prolitezation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
Click to expand...


I don't see any contradiction with my post.
If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
 to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that this can be called a result of prolitezstion. This is more about adopting this religion by some people for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism is against prolitezation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
Click to expand...

I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
Click to expand...


Not relevant?
Who are You fooling, anyone can read Your none sense
and see the apparent obsession and abusive behavior.

Coyote go suggest people they establish caliphates in their land,
divide their capital with sworn enemies and spread bigotry about their faith.

Then return and tell me how that went along.
Mkay?


----------



## Coyote

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judaism was a major religion around the Mediterranean basin in ancient times, at one point historians estimate that as much as 20% of the population of Rome were converts to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism competed fiercely for converts until Christianity won out when the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire. In the next few centuries, most Jewish converts "re-converted" to Christianity and Jewish numbers declined (Christian persecutions helped to speed up this process) until only the most "devout/fanatical" converts were left.
> 
> Only since medieval times, when it began to turn inward on itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
Click to expand...

Oh.  And let me add, you really are a pompous jerk.  My response to the other poster was just a question. Nothing to do with you, just a question about something I had read somewhere. Then jump in, take my question as a statement, and act like a jerk.  And you hardly lack bias yourself, so don’t crack your glass house while you are chucking stones around.


----------



## Coyote

[



rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not relevant?
> Who are You fooling, anyone can read Your none sense
> and see the apparent obsession and abusive behavior.
> 
> Coyote go suggest people they establish caliphates in their land,
> divide their capital with sworn enemies and spread bigotry about their faith.
> 
> Then return and tell me how that went along.
> Mkay?
Click to expand...


You are a liar.  You know I meant Emerites, something we had already been discussing.  If this is what come up with in lieu of discussion, I have no further interest in interacting with you.  Find some else to troll.  Good day.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting history...I did not know this, but it makes sense, isnt that also when was decided being Jewish was determined through the mother?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh.  And let me add, you really are a pompous jerk.  My response to the other poster was just a question. Nothing to do with you, just a question about something I had read somewhere. Then jump in, take my question as a statement, and act like a jerk.  And you hardly lack bias yourself, so don’t crack your glass house while you are chucking stones around.
Click to expand...

Divide my capital, support my enemies, insult my faith, abuse my friends,
use Your admin status to dig into posts I've deleted to smear and accuse me of stuff,
while attacking me personally?

Nothing to do with me? Really?
That's just below any basic level of integrity...

Please go find someone else to bother.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
Click to expand...



'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews

'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town

Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do You know the difference between history and "historic estimations",
> or just swallow anything that will fit Your arrogance and 'draw a circle around the arrow'?
> 
> Israeli ancestry is determined by both mother and father, the first determines the belonging to the nation as a whole, the second the specific tribe. A child born to woman from the tribe Judah (Jew) and father from the tribe of Gad, is determined as and Israeli child belonging to the tribe of Gad.
> 
> Capiche?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh.  And let me add, you really are a pompous jerk.  My response to the other poster was just a question. Nothing to do with you, just a question about something I had read somewhere. Then jump in, take my question as a statement, and act like a jerk.  And you hardly lack bias yourself, so don’t crack your glass house while you are chucking stones around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Divide my capital, support my enemies, insult my faith, abuse my friends,
> use Your admin status to dig into posts I've deleted to smear and accuse me of stuff,
> while attacking me personally?
> 
> Nothing to do with me? Really?
> That's just below any basic level of integrity...
> 
> Please go find someone else to bother.
Click to expand...

I responded to that post before you deleted it.  Then you removed it leaving my response hanging.  *Look at the times.  And then be honest. *


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
Click to expand...


Yep not obsessed at all...
Good girl, thank You for proving my point.

You cracked really fast.
Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
 You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should step back and stop being such an pompous  jerk for a change. It would be a breath of fresh air but I won’t hold my breath.
> 
> 
> Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning
> According to traditional Jewish law (_halacha_), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.
> 
> Who Is A Jew?
> *Who is a Jew According to halakhah (Jewish Religious Law)?*
> *According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew;* one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.
> 
> 
> Born to a non-Jewish mother
> The practice and acceptance of patrilineal descent is somewhat different in the United States, and has been since 1983, but the Canadian Reform movement *adheres to the traditional approach to Jewish status: one is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother, or if that person converts to Judaism*
> 
> My cousin’s father was Jewish, her mother not.  She was not considered a Jew.  In fact her father’s family never forgave him for marrying outside the faith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh.  And let me add, you really are a pompous jerk.  My response to the other poster was just a question. Nothing to do with you, just a question about something I had read somewhere. Then jump in, take my question as a statement, and act like a jerk.  And you hardly lack bias yourself, so don’t crack your glass house while you are chucking stones around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Divide my capital, support my enemies, insult my faith, abuse my friends,
> use Your admin status to dig into posts I've deleted to smear and accuse me of stuff,
> while attacking me personally?
> 
> Nothing to do with me? Really?
> That's just below any basic level of integrity...
> 
> Please go find someone else to bother.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I responded to that post before you deleted it.  Then you removed it leaving my response hanging.  *Look at the times.  And then be honest. *
Click to expand...


Really pathetic and disgusting lying.

Don't You have other threads to troll?
Other members to abuse?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
Click to expand...


Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh.  And let me add, you really are a pompous jerk.  My response to the other poster was just a question. Nothing to do with you, just a question about something I had read somewhere. Then jump in, take my question as a statement, and act like a jerk.  And you hardly lack bias yourself, so don’t crack your glass house while you are chucking stones around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Divide my capital, support my enemies, insult my faith, abuse my friends,
> use Your admin status to dig into posts I've deleted to smear and accuse me of stuff,
> while attacking me personally?
> 
> Nothing to do with me? Really?
> That's just below any basic level of integrity...
> 
> Please go find someone else to bother.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I responded to that post before you deleted it.  Then you removed it leaving my response hanging.  *Look at the times.  And then be honest. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really pathetic and unpleasant lying.
> 
> Don't You have other threads to troll?
> Other members to abuse?
Click to expand...

Be honest and look at the times, if you have integrity.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> 
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
Click to expand...


Oh boy You could quote from The Stormer with the same success.

Why the obsession, is it revenge for that uncle of Yours?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any contradiction with my post.
> If You don't like being put in Your place on the issue, address Your obsession with anything Jewish,
> to someone who matches Your apparent bias and level of ignorance of the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not obsessed with everything Jewish.  I was commenting on something historic that another poster had brought up, that was interesting when you jumped in to the middle of it flaming, with something that really wasn’t even relevant to that part of the discussion.  I wonder why?  Because you are just a jerk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh.  And let me add, you really are a pompous jerk.  My response to the other poster was just a question. Nothing to do with you, just a question about something I had read somewhere. Then jump in, take my question as a statement, and act like a jerk.  And you hardly lack bias yourself, so don’t crack your glass house while you are chucking stones around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Divide my capital, support my enemies, insult my faith, abuse my friends,
> use Your admin status to dig into posts I've deleted to smear and accuse me of stuff,
> while attacking me personally?
> 
> Nothing to do with me? Really?
> That's just below any basic level of integrity...
> 
> Please go find someone else to bother.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I responded to that post before you deleted it.  Then you removed it leaving my response hanging.  *Look at the times.  And then be honest. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really pathetic and disgusting lying.
> 
> Don't You have other threads to troll?
> *Other members to abuse*?
Click to expand...


You started in on me, not I on you.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh boy You could quote from The Stormer with the same success.
> 
> Why the obsession, is it revenge for that uncle of Yours?
Click to expand...

You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.

Are you trying to claim that gender segregation on bus’ is not a controversial issue  in regards to the ultra orthodox or are you trying to say it is forbidden to speak of it and those who do are virulent anti semites?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh boy You could quote from The Stormer with the same success.
> 
> Why the obsession, is it revenge for that uncle of Yours?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.
> 
> Are you trying to claim that gender segregation on bus’ is not a controversial issue  in regards to the ultra orthodox or are you trying to say it is forbidden to speak of it and those who do are virulent anti semites?
Click to expand...


There's simply no segregation in public transport, just hateful media blowing up stories to make them look as if isolated cases of unacceptable behavior were the norm.

But only a true Jew hater would actually bother pay for a subscription to such a biased source,
that barely any Israeli bothers to read or takes seriously, and was sued numerous times to eventually pay damages for blatant lies and incitement.

Who pays for a foreign media source that no one reads home?
Well here wee see the audience...go on talk about integrity, in the meantime it's You who actually spend money from her own pocket to smear my country and my people -* the definition of obsession.
*
Let's pretend there isn't another name for that.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh boy You could quote from The Stormer with the same success.
> 
> Why the obsession, is it revenge for that uncle of Yours?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.
> 
> Are you trying to claim that gender segregation on bus’ is not a controversial issue  in regards to the ultra orthodox or are you trying to say it is forbidden to speak of it and those who do are virulent anti semites?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's simply no segregation in public transport, just hateful media blowing up stories to make them look as if isolated cases of unacceptable behavior were the norm.
> 
> But only a true Jew hater would actually pay for a subscription to such a biased source,
> that barely no Israeli bother to or takes seriously.
Click to expand...


Ah.  Okay.  So you think Haaretz (which is free by the way) is a Jew Hater source, presumably because it is liberal and conflicts with your extremely conservative anti Arab point of view.

Too bad.  It offers good articles and commentary and shows Israel has a plurality of viewpoints.

Many women don’t seem to like being told, pressured or even threatened to sit in the back of the bus. Clearly it is enough of an issue that it has been in the courts a good bit.

This is from 2012.  From Back of the Bus, Israeli Women Fight Segregation

And this is from a few months ago.

Israeli court fails to stop city concert that barred men and women sitting together - Religion News Service

Israel's attorney general is allowing the gender-segregation tsunami to sweep over

_In recent years, gender segregation and discrimination against women have been expanding into various aspects of public life. This is seen on army bases where women are marginalized; on academic campuses where female “modesty supervisors” check the length of skirts; in the civil service, which has cadet courses for men only; in funeral ceremonies, where women cannot mourn or stand with their families; in signposts forbidding women to walk on certain sidewalks, while men police their clothing, applying ever harsher modesty rules, occasionally with curses and spitting. Bus drivers refuse to let on a female passenger in shorts, or don’t allow women to board, claiming there’s “room for men only.”_​


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh boy You could quote from The Stormer with the same success.
> 
> Why the obsession, is it revenge for that uncle of Yours?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.
> 
> Are you trying to claim that gender segregation on bus’ is not a controversial issue  in regards to the ultra orthodox or are you trying to say it is forbidden to speak of it and those who do are virulent anti semites?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's simply no segregation in public transport, just hateful media blowing up stories to make them look as if isolated cases of unacceptable behavior were the norm.
> 
> But only a true Jew hater would actually bother pay for a subscription to such a biased source,
> that barely any Israeli bothers to read or takes seriously, and was sued numerous times to eventually pay damages for blatant lies and incitement.
> 
> Who pays for a foreign media source that no one reads home?
> Well here wee see the audience...go on talk about integrity, in the meantime it's *You who actually spend money *from her own pocket to smear my country and my people -* the definition of obsession.
> *
> Let's pretend there isn't another name for that.
Click to expand...


What are talking about, spend money? It is FREE.  Just like the Jerusalem Post and other media sources.  You get a certain number of articles per day free.  Do some research before lying please.


----------



## impuretrash

This is an interesting thread. It's got a little of everything that should make it obvious why Eastern Europe wants to chart its own destiny and break away from the radical leftists and the neoconservative jews wreaking havok in the west.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh boy You could quote from The Stormer with the same success.
> 
> Why the obsession, is it revenge for that uncle of Yours?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.
> 
> Are you trying to claim that gender segregation on bus’ is not a controversial issue  in regards to the ultra orthodox or are you trying to say it is forbidden to speak of it and those who do are virulent anti semites?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's simply no segregation in public transport, just hateful media blowing up stories to make them look as if isolated cases of unacceptable behavior were the norm.
> 
> But only a true Jew hater would actually bother pay for a subscription to such a biased source,
> that barely any Israeli bothers to read or takes seriously, and was sued numerous times to eventually pay damages for blatant lies and incitement.
> 
> Who pays for a foreign media source that no one reads home?
> Well here wee see the audience...go on talk about integrity, in the meantime it's *You who actually spend money *from her own pocket to smear my country and my people -* the definition of obsession.
> *
> Let's pretend there isn't another name for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What are talking about, spend money?
Click to expand...

Aside from Your own admission to actually paying for that,
the numerous times You've posted articles that were blocked for unsubscribed users.

Do You ever read anything else on Israel?
Can You show me one positive article about the orthodox community, in that source?

C'mon stop playing games, You know this is a highly biased one,
that doesn't fall short of the likes of The Stormer.

That they're allowed to publish all that bigotry indeed shows a high level of pluralism,
but not the healthy side of it. Your insistence on constantly using just that speaks volumes about what is clear even without.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> 
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
Click to expand...


But did You show that?
Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?

Being a bigot takes much less brain activity,
than actually taking time to research a subject.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh boy You could quote from The Stormer with the same success.
> 
> Why the obsession, is it revenge for that uncle of Yours?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.
> 
> Are you trying to claim that gender segregation on bus’ is not a controversial issue  in regards to the ultra orthodox or are you trying to say it is forbidden to speak of it and those who do are virulent anti semites?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's simply no segregation in public transport, just hateful media blowing up stories to make them look as if isolated cases of unacceptable behavior were the norm.
> 
> But only a true Jew hater would actually bother pay for a subscription to such a biased source,
> that barely any Israeli bothers to read or takes seriously, and was sued numerous times to eventually pay damages for blatant lies and incitement.
> 
> Who pays for a foreign media source that no one reads home?
> Well here wee see the audience...go on talk about integrity, in the meantime it's *You who actually spend money *from her own pocket to smear my country and my people -* the definition of obsession.
> *
> Let's pretend there isn't another name for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What are talking about, spend money?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The numerous times You've posted articles that were blocked for unsubscribed users.
> Aside from Your own admission to actually paying for that.
> 
> Do You ever read anything else on Israel?
> Can You show me one positive article about the orthodox community in that source?
> 
> C'mon stop playing games, You know this is a highly biased one,
> that doesn't fall short of the likes of The Stormer.
> 
> That they're allowed to publish all that bigotry indeed shows a high level of pluralism,
> but not the healthy side of it. Your insistence on constantly using just that speaks volumes about what is clear even without.
Click to expand...

What on earth are you talking about?  I never said I pay for it, I am not about to pay for something I only read occasionally, I don’t pay for ANY news.  Haaretz is freely available up to a certain number of articles per day then you hit a paywall.

You may not like Haaretz because it doesn’t support your ideology but that hardly makes it Stormfront.  I suspect your choices of media have a heavy anti Arab bias.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But did You show that?
> Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?
Click to expand...

A questionable source?

Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But did You show that?
> Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A questionable source?
> 
> Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?
Click to expand...


I'm not talking about a "point of view",
but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.

Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
only to be exposed as blatant forgery:

Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Ah.  Okay.  So you think Haaretz (which is free by the way) is a Jew Hater source, presumably because it is liberal and conflicts with your extremely conservative anti Arab point of view.



Because instead of showing some respect and actually asking me what I think, You come up with these ridiculous virtue signaling and strawman fallacies.

Haaretz is not a liberal media source, far from. If that was the case, they would be liberal towards all, including the orthodox community as well. Instead they just constantly incite home and abroad against them, and the vast majority of Israeli population

It has nothing to do with my views on Arabs, but with the publication's material being targeted at, and mainly used for anti-Israel, pan-Arab and Neo-Nazi propaganda.

I think most Israeli printed (and electronic) media is liberal, with probably just one printed newspaper leaning more right-wing, which also happens to be the one with highest circulation.

Haaretz on the other hand, for being what it is, is the one with the lowest circulation,
virtually none, for the natural reasons listed above. I have been working as a professional musician for the last 17 years, hanging around the most liberal circles, and I think I haven't seen one in paper version literally since childhood, no one buys or sells that garbage.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?



Oh really I didn't realize You perceived me as an ultra-orthodox.
I think all these definitions are simply ridiculous, especially when they add the "ultra-super-mega" adjectives...

Once we were just called simply Jews, and it was enough to scare kids around campfire.
Now they need something more "super-ultra-mega-superfluous"  to make old folklore sound spooky enough. Guess that's progress as well...

Anyway, Muslim segregation in mosques sounds most natural and authentic, evokes no enmity or shock, and is true. Unlike knowingly spreading lies about Israel supposedly segregating men and women in public transport -to deceive them into not only thinking this was true but to also associate it with pre-60's America's policies of segregation based not only on gender but skin color as well.

That's just a propaganda technique aimed to dehumanize and motivate an age old hatred.


----------



## ESay

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get down from that high horse, and educate Yourself, because other than projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism and the Torah, those which they swore to eradicate and forge, You have no idea what You're talking about whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
Click to expand...

And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past. 

Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.



Well this is a good example of typical abusive manipulative behavior.
You've started cursing already from the 2nd message You sent me today.
In spite that all along our conversation there was no reason to keep calling names.

And now, You're pretending to be a victim... 
nice try, but I just won't bite.


----------



## rylah

ESay said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.
> 
> What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.
> 
> Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.
Click to expand...


Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?

Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.

Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...

So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.


----------



## ESay

rylah said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> No such animal possible.
> Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.
> 
> In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
> Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.
> 
> There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule-  a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.
> 
> Educate Yourself with the basics.
> 
> 
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.
> 
> Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
> but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
> so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?
> 
> Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.
> 
> Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
> These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
> My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...
> 
> So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.
Click to expand...

Sorry, man, didn't want to offend anyone. Thanks for input. 

No smearing intended, btw. Just trying of a little education for myself. 

I will later write about what I meant trying to compare 'true followers' of some religions.


----------



## Kilroy2

If everyone got along then the world would be so peachy

Difference exist because it is in human DNA and people have different experiences, aspirations, and views about the world

 If religion cannot heal the divide then politics does not stand a chance. 

if opposites attract then they also repel and everyone has an opinion

It is easy to agree but even harder to agree to disagree

then again maybe it just admiration that turns to jealous


----------



## rylah

ESay said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.
> 
> Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
> but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
> so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?
> 
> Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.
> 
> Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
> These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
> My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...
> 
> So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, man, didn't want to offend anyone. Thanks for input.
> 
> No smearing intended, btw. Just trying of a little education for myself.
> 
> I will later write about what I meant trying to compare 'true followers' of some religions.
Click to expand...


Yeah, sorry don't take it personally.
It's just that much of the media is spreading vulgar lies about the community,
I get defensive and spiky by default, but myself realize it's not an easy subject to swallow, and sift through all the typical bs being usually told. People don't realize even the tip of the amount of kindness and warmth they give without one even asking for... 
Just love 'em from the bottom of the heart.

Be well, later.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults?  Insulting family?  Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well this is a good example of typical abusive manipulative behavior.
> You've started cursing already from the 2nd message You sent me today.
> In spite that all along our conversation there was no reason to keep calling names.
> 
> And now, You're pretending to be a victim...
> nice try, but I just won't bite.
Click to expand...

You attacked my family.   You attacked me *in your FIRST post to me*, name calling.  And you continued.  You get upset when I responded back in kind. Why? * It doesn’t matter what I post*.

Let’s look at what you say about the Hassid.  You are upset and angry at any criticism towards them, even if legitimate.  Every group has it’s positives and negatives and every group has good people and bad people.  The problem is people tend to try to define them by their bad people when convenient or to push an agenda. Pointing out a reality, that there are some problems with Hassid is not saying they are bad, it is being honest.

Gender segregation.  We are highly critical of it in Muslim communities.  But we can’t be critical of it in Hasidic communities?  Even though it does cause tensions and inequality?  It doesn’t mean they are bad people, or that They aren’t also warm and generous.  Palestinian Muslims also segregated women in worship, and are very unequal in their treatment of women.  They also have a reputation for warm and generous hospitality.  But that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical about their treatment of women and also recognize there are many good people in that community as well.


----------



## Vagabond63

Wow, this thread went west fast, a thread about eastern and western europeans' views on the EU turned into one on Israeli culture. My advice, for what it's worth, is to move the relevant  thread posts into the Israel-Palestine cesspit, sorry, I mean forum.


----------



## Vagabond63

Mindful said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
Click to expand...


Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?
> 
> Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.
> 
> You are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was no leap, filth.
> 
> You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.
> 
> Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.
Click to expand...


Really?  I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.

Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.

How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism


----------



## Mindful

Vagabond63 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?
Click to expand...


No it does not.

It's a metaphor. Do you even know what a metaphor is?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.
> 
> You are.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was no leap, filth.
> 
> You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.
> 
> Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?  I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.
> 
> Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.
> 
> How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism
Click to expand...

There has been no re-branding.

Your themes of the puppet master Jew manipulating others to war against each other are as old as the hills.

I see you have another confirmed antisemite in your corner, but no matter how you Nazis squirm and deflect, you are still indulging in Nazi rhetoric.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Mindful said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it does not.
> 
> It's a metaphor. Do you even know what a metaphor is?
Click to expand...

All he knows is that he hates Jews because it comes with the territory

I'm surprised he limited himself to the indirect "standard of living" statement instead of the usual "rich Jew" canard.

Maybe it is because I called him on the manipulative Jew canard that he tried to be more subtle this time around.  Perhaps he has been taking lessons from his fellow antisemite here .


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But did You show that?
> Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A questionable source?
> 
> Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about a "point of view",
> but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.
> 
> Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
> only to be exposed as blatant forgery:
> 
> Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
> 
> I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
> but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.
Click to expand...

Your source is a pro Israel blog.  Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz?  I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction:  _The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.
_
So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad.  At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.


----------



## ESay

rylah said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
> Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.
> 
> For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
> while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - *heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.*
> 
> If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.
> 
> Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.
> 
> Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.
> 
> As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.
> 
> In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. *No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews
> 
> 'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town
> 
> Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.
> 
> Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
> but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
> so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?
> 
> Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.
> 
> Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
> These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
> My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...
> 
> So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, man, didn't want to offend anyone. Thanks for input.
> 
> No smearing intended, btw. Just trying of a little education for myself.
> 
> I will later write about what I meant trying to compare 'true followers' of some religions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, sorry don't take it personally.
> It's just that much of the media is spreading vulgar lies about the community,
> I get defensive and spiky by default, but myself realize it's not an easy subject to swallow, and sift through all the typical bs being usually told. People don't realize even the tip of the amount of kindness and warmth they give without one even asking for...
> Just love 'em from the bottom of the heart.
> 
> Be well, later.
Click to expand...

Well, after reading this your answer and the previous one, I realized that the comparison won't be fair. I wanted to compare Hasidic community with a Christian Evangelical one. 

I know that Evangelicals in the US have dubious reputation, but where I live I think they are true Christians, unlike Catholics and Orthodox. They are peaceful, hardworking, honest and demand nothing from the state. And I thought that the Hasids are the opposite of this. But it is not that simple it seems.


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.
> 
> 
> 
> There was no leap, filth.
> 
> You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.
> 
> Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?  I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.
> 
> Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.
> 
> How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There has been no re-branding.
> 
> Your themes of the puppet master Jew manipulating others to war against each other are as old as the hills.
> 
> I see you have another confirmed antisemite in your corner, but no matter how you Nazis squirm and deflect, you are still indulging in Nazi rhetoric.
Click to expand...

Projecting again, your desperation to deflect is self evident, but I just can't be bothered to respond. Here's a link that demonstrates my views better than I can, from the editor of the Forward no less. Speech before the Los Angeles World Affairs Council on January 10


----------



## Vagabond63

Mindful said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties.  I dont see how that is a good thing.  They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.
> 
> Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience
> 
> In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service
> 
> 
> 
> Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it does not.
> 
> It's a metaphor. Do you even know what a metaphor is?
Click to expand...

Yes.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Vagabond63 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no leap, filth.
> 
> You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.
> 
> Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?  I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.
> 
> Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.
> 
> How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There has been no re-branding.
> 
> Your themes of the puppet master Jew manipulating others to war against each other are as old as the hills.
> 
> I see you have another confirmed antisemite in your corner, but no matter how you Nazis squirm and deflect, you are still indulging in Nazi rhetoric.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Projecting again, your desperation to deflect is self evident, but I just can't be bothered to respond. Here's a link that demonstrates my views better than I can, from the editor of the Forward no less. Speech before the Los Angeles World Affairs Council on January 10
Click to expand...

Yes.  You are an antisemitic piece of excrement dealing in all the classic canards.


I already knew that.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep not obsessed at all...
> Good girl, thank You for proving my point.
> 
> You cracked really fast.
> Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
> You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But did You show that?
> Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A questionable source?
> 
> Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about a "point of view",
> but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.
> 
> Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
> only to be exposed as blatant forgery:
> 
> Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
> 
> I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
> but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your source is a pro Israel blog.  Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz?  I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction:  _The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.
> _
> So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad.  At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.
Click to expand...


One cannot be "a bit pregnant".
First You've just  confirmed exactly what my source reported.
and the lack of reliability of Yours.

Btw this also shows the intellectual level of their target audience, and their relationship with facts.
Take Your time...


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness.  Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater?  Really?  Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it.  So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But did You show that?
> Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A questionable source?
> 
> Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about a "point of view",
> but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.
> 
> Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
> only to be exposed as blatant forgery:
> 
> Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
> 
> I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
> but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your source is a pro Israel blog.  Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz?  I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction:  _The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.
> _
> So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad.  At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One cannot be "a bit pregnant".
> First You've just  confirmed exactly what my source reported.
> and the lack of reliability of Yours.
> 
> Btw this also shows the intellectual level of their target audience, and their relationship with facts.
> Take Your time...
Click to expand...

The confirmation is that the photo used was wrongly identified.  No reputable news source is correct 100% of the time.  In my view what is important is if they issue a correction and the correction did not state that olive were not cut down.

Do you apply the same standard to all sources?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> But did You show that?
> Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?
> 
> 
> 
> A questionable source?
> 
> Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about a "point of view",
> but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.
> 
> Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
> only to be exposed as blatant forgery:
> 
> Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
> 
> I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
> but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your source is a pro Israel blog.  Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz?  I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction:  _The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.
> _
> So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad.  At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One cannot be "a bit pregnant".
> First You've just  confirmed exactly what my source reported.
> and the lack of reliability of Yours.
> 
> Btw this also shows the intellectual level of their target audience, and their relationship with facts.
> Take Your time...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The confirmation is that the photo used was wrongly identified.  No reputable news source is correct 100% of the time.  In my view what is important is if they issue a correction and the correction did not state that olive were not cut down.
> 
> Do you apply the same standard to all sources?
Click to expand...


Can't be "a little bit pregnant".
 And as I've said, unfortunately this is more a rule than an exception.
That's why they're condemned even by their own political camp.

Just shows You how much reliable is the source.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Let’s look at what you say about the Hassid.  You are upset and angry at any criticism towards them, even if legitimate.  Every group has it’s positives and negatives and every group has good people and bad people.  The problem is people tend to try to define them by their bad people when convenient or to push an agenda. Pointing out a reality, that there are some problems with Hassid is not saying they are bad, it is being honest.
> 
> Gender segregation.  We are highly critical of it in Muslim communities.  But we can’t be critical of it in Hasidic communities?  Even though it does cause tensions and inequality?  It doesn’t mean they are bad people, or that They aren’t also warm and generous.  Palestinian Muslims also segregated women in worship, and are very unequal in their treatment of women.  They also have a reputation for warm and generous hospitality.  But that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical about their treatment of women and also recognize there are many good people in that community as well.



Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,
to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.

Your response was to my statement regarding segregation in public transport, which was to post news articles about 2 exceptional court cases dealing with public transport in a period spanning a decade, which ruled against gender segregation, and conflate them with a case of a concert organized by and for the Orthodox community, where men and women would've been segregated, eventually closed because neither the artists could perform nor their audience could visit the concert, after a Feminist organization petitioned to deny them these conditions.

None of that proves there's segregation in public transport. And instead of confirming that, which is evident for anyone with 2 brain sells who can read, You've proceeded to suggesting it was otherwise, in spite of Your own proof showing the opposite, and conflating it with the situation of women in Muslim societies.

Now put that aside, my position is at least consistent - I don't see anything wrong with when either Muslims or Jews, or anyone else segregate during worship. It seems most natural to me, because I realize the practical and spiritual reasons for it, and why this should be respected, as much as I don't think I should force anyone else to practice the same.

For me pluralism is extended not only to people of my peer group, but to those who think otherwise as well, like Feminists and Progressives, who unfortunately seem to think, and behave as if it's a tool to force everyone else without exceptions to abide by their standards.

But hey, You can call me primitive, though I just think I've reached a certain point of maturity, where I'm confident enough in my beliefs and my ability to argue for their validity, not to abuse others for merely thinking and preferring to live otherwise.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. I am not. I wrote my response while your post was still up because it was rather shocking, then you deleted it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So where is it?
> Why did You delete Your original response since then, documenting this abuse of position?
> Just shows lack of one's confidence in one's skills to debate on equal terms.
> 
> Dirty tricks, manipulation and abuse of privilege is all You have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not delete it. Is deleting your post after it has been seen and some one is responding to it debating on equal terms? Then accusing them of abuse because you then deleted it? Seriously?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So where is Your original response quoted in my post?
> Gone, since I've pointed how it reveals Your manipulation and abuse of
> privilege.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not sure where you mean now, do you mean here in this thread or the other?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You've brought it up, and now playing dumb, how original.
> What a determination , that I'll give You.
> 
> Though pity it's used to troll, rather than debate in any cultured constructive manner.
Click to expand...


No I am saying exactly what I mean - we are jumping around different threads.  I'm taking this up via pm rather than derailing further.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

rylah said:


> Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,
> to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.




Another common tactic is one used by her fellow antisemite with which she agrees.  When indulging in all the time-tested antisemitic canards about Jewish manipulation, Jewish secrecy, Jewish control,  undue Jewish power and Jewish perfidy in general, just find some sort of statement by a Jewish extremist that offers any of the same themes and then use that as evidence that doing so means they aren't an antisemite.  It is actually evidence that they KNOW they are an antisemite and are simply resorting to a ruse, but they are too stupid to realize others are not taken in by their dishonesty.

Heck, I am waiting for a reference to Israel Shahak at any minute...….


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s look at what you say about the Hassid.  You are upset and angry at any criticism towards them, even if legitimate.  Every group has it’s positives and negatives and every group has good people and bad people.  The problem is people tend to try to define them by their bad people when convenient or to push an agenda. Pointing out a reality, that there are some problems with Hassid is not saying they are bad, it is being honest.
> 
> 
> Gender segregation.  We are highly critical of it in Muslim communities.  But we can’t be critical of it in Hasidic communities?  Even though it does cause tensions and inequality?  It doesn’t mean they are bad people, or that They aren’t also warm and generous.  Palestinian Muslims also segregated women in worship, and are very unequal in their treatment of women.  They also have a reputation for warm and generous hospitality.  But that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical about their treatment of women and also recognize there are many good people in that community as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,
> 
> to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.
Click to expand...



Do you realize what you are saying?  You essentially saying that if anyone criticizes and aspect of Jewish faith/religion/sects – they are anti-semitic.  That is what you are saying.


Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc.  You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith.  We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews?  Really?  Do you apply those same standards to other faiths? 


The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position.  They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior.  Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization.  The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse.  It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is.  Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that *it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women.*  But we dare not speak of it right?





> Your response was to my statement regarding segregation in public transport, which was to post news articles about 2 exceptional court cases dealing with public transport in a period spanning a decade, which ruled against gender segregation, and conflate them with a case of a concert organized by and for the Orthodox community, where men and women would've been segregated, eventually closed because neither the artists could perform nor their audience could visit the concert, after a Feminist organization petitioned to deny them these conditions.
> 
> 
> None of that proves there's segregation in public transport. And instead of confirming that, which is evident for anyone with 2 brain sells who can read, You've proceeded to suggesting it was otherwise, in spite of Your own proof showing the opposite, and conflating it with the situation of women in Muslim societies.




So you ignore it when members of that Haredi community commit violence or intimidate women from riding where they wish on the bus? Or planes?  I agree that there is no government-mandated segregation, in fact *I never claimed that* - yet it does occur in certain areas as does intimidation of women not adhering to the desired dress code.  *Is this ok?*


There are other cases of this sort of intimidation towards women.

2014 Israeli airline urged to stop ‘bullying’ of women by ultra-orthodox passengers

2019 Women of Wall forced to move service amid ‘violent’ ultra-Orthodox protest

2017 https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ec4260-8115-11e7-9e7a-20fa8d7a0db6_story.html

2019 (an opinion piece) https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...y-should-sit-in-the-back-of-the-bus-1.7681266


A simple search shows there is a good deal of controversy between women and women’s rights and the Haredi community.  It also shows that this community has an outsized political voice that impacts people outside their community and attempts to force their views and norms on others.  When that occurs it is problematic.




> Now put that aside, my position is at least consistent - I don't see anything wrong with when either Muslims or Jews, or anyone else segregate during worship. It seems most natural to me, because I realize the practical and spiritual reasons for it, and why this should be respected, as much as I don't think I should force anyone else to practice the same.




I actually agree with you.  Within a sect, it’s up to its adherents to determine how they wish to worship as long as actual abuse does not occur (and I don’t consider gender segregation within a faith to be abuse as long as people are voluntarily within the faith and choosing this life style).  I also agree it should be respected.




> For me pluralism is extended not only to people of my peer group, but to those who think otherwise as well, like Feminists and Progressives, who unfortunately seem to think, and behave as if it's a tool to force everyone else without exceptions to abide by their standards.




I agree. Pluralism means a tolerance of other ways of thinking and living, and yes – progressives, feminists and athiests are just as intolerant as those they claim to criticize.  The key is – no one has a right to impose their beliefs on another (within certain basic parameters of human rights and law).




> But hey, You can call me primitive, though I just think I've reached a certain point of maturity, where I'm confident enough in my beliefs and my ability to argue for their validity, not to abuse others for merely thinking and preferring to live otherwise.





But hey.  I haven’t called you primitive.  And if other people CHOOSE to live a certain way, it’s their right.  I have no argument there as long as it’s applied equally across the board and basic human rights are not violated (such as the education of girls, domestic abuse, honor killings, forced marriages and child marriages).


----------



## Vagabond63

Dogmaphobe said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... You are an antisemitic piece of excrement...
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Projecting still I see, no real surprise there, don't forget your tikki light, sieg heil Dogamaphile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Isn't it nice how we have a thread about the differences between Eastern and Western European countries in regards to the preservation of their culture in reaction to the forced Islamization being dictated by Brussels and now we are talking about Jews, instead?

Antisemites are nothing, if not consistant.


----------



## Hugo Furst

Dogmaphobe said:


> What a website, Eh?
> 
> One of the MODERATOTRS thinks it is funny that she has helped steer a thread about the difference between Eastern and Western European attitudes towards the Islamization of their counties into an anti-Semitic hate fest.
> 
> Most sites want people to stay on topic. This one likes to rub people's noses in the fact they are successful in undermining threads with their ethnic hatred and radical Islamist agendas.





Dogmaphobe said:


> One of the MODERATORS thinks it is funny



no, a board poster did.

Moderators type in *red.*

*and get pissed when you attack moderators in open forum.*

*if you have a problem with a moderator, PM them.*


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Do you realize what you are saying?  You essentially saying that if anyone criticizes and aspect of Jewish faith/religion/sects – they are anti-semitic.  That is what you are saying.


Wow!
Except that I didn't say that.
Maybe if Your goal was not abuse and slander, there wasn't this need to constantly manipulate the conversation. Instead of actually responding to what I've said, You simply proceed to the vulgar antisemitic canards (the likes of "but I have Jewish friends"), further blaming the victim for merely pointing to Your obsessive abuse.

What would Jew haters do without reserving to all these banal straw man fallacies?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc.  You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith.  We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews?  Really?  Do you apply those same standards to other faiths?
> 
> The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position.  They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior.  Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization.  The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse.  It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is.  Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that *it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women.*  But we dare not speak of it right?



Except that it none sense, they ARE different, and it DOES matter what society is examined.

This attempt to conflate the situation of dominating Christian, Islamic, Hindu majorities and their treatment of women, to that in the Jewish community, is further slander of a minority where abuse of women is rather an exception than norm, and merely an attempt to downplay vividly catastrophic proportions of their abuse in Islamic societies.

I find it ironically revealing that You constantly jump with the _"but,but,but...Jews and Christians" _excuses, whenever there's a thread about Islam in the forum, but when suggested to condemn the Women's March organizers who publicly incite to violence against rape victims for criticizing Islam - You boldly refuse, reserving to lame excuses.

This has nothing to do with "conservative vs liberal", that just none sense.
There's simply a specific society that stands at the top of the misogyny list in the world , leading by a HUGE margin - and we all know who they are, whose behavior You constantly defend while pretending to ride some moral high horse.

After being exposed to what they've been and still do to their women home, while experiencing first hand the mass rape all around the European continent, it's just too late for You folks, no one buys into these lame manipulations anymore.

And proportionately - the more desperate the attempt to deceive the victim about the apparently evident situation, eventually the harsher gonna be the natural defense response.

When all that pressure releases, it's not gonna be pretty at all.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> So you ignore it when members of that Haredi community commit violence or intimidate women from riding where they wish on the bus? Or planes?  I agree that there is no government-mandated segregation, in fact *I never claimed that* - yet it does occur in certain areas as does intimidation of women not adhering to the desired dress code.  *Is this ok?*
> 
> 
> There are other cases of this sort of intimidation towards women.
> 
> 2014 Israeli airline urged to stop ‘bullying’ of women by ultra-orthodox passengers
> 
> 2019 Women of Wall forced to move service amid ‘violent’ ultra-Orthodox protest
> 
> 2017 https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ec4260-8115-11e7-9e7a-20fa8d7a0db6_story.html
> 
> 2019 (an opinion piece) Israel's new Iron Lady wants women to sit in the back of the bus. She should be the first | Opinion
> 
> 
> A simple search shows there is a good deal of controversy between women and women’s rights and the Haredi community.  It also shows that this community has an outsized political voice that impacts people outside their community and attempts to force their views and norms on others.  When that occurs it is problematic.



I ignored nothing, quiet the opposite I've addressed each case in detail.

That You keep trying to conflate them with feminist subversion, cases of murder perpetrated by mentally disturbed people, and ridiculous opinion pieces from biased sources - only reveals Your desperation to grasp at straws and utter obsession with a minority.


----------



## rylah

WillHaftawaite said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a website, Eh?
> 
> One of the MODERATOTRS thinks it is funny that she has helped steer a thread about the difference between Eastern and Western European attitudes towards the Islamization of their counties into an anti-Semitic hate fest.
> 
> Most sites want people to stay on topic. This one likes to rub people's noses in the fact they are successful in undermining threads with their ethnic hatred and radical Islamist agendas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the MODERATORS thinks it is funny
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, a board poster did.
> 
> Moderators type in *red.*
> 
> *and get pissed when you attack moderators in open forum.*
> 
> *if you have a problem with a moderator, PM them.*
Click to expand...




Are You suggesting rape victims a 'secure hotline' to their abusers??
That's original.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

rylah said:


> Are You suggesting rape victims a 'secure hotline' to their abusers??
> That's original.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> You attacked my family.   You attacked me *in your FIRST post to me*, name calling.  And you continued.  You get upset when I responded back in kind. Why? * It doesn’t matter what I post*.



You keep repeating this ad nauseam  but present no evidence.
This can mean only two things:

Either
1.  You're attempting to further abuse and silence me as a response for merely pointing to Your use of fowl language and immature behavior - for which one would be convicted for slander in court of law.

Or
2. Your family members include Linda_ "take their vaginas away" _Sarsour, 
which would explain a lot, and confirm the agenda that has been long ago apparent 










So which one is it?


----------



## rylah

Dogmaphobe said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,
> to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another common tactic is one used by her fellow antisemite with which she agrees.  When indulging in all the time-tested antisemitic canards about Jewish manipulation, Jewish secrecy, Jewish control,  undue Jewish power and Jewish perfidy in general, just find some sort of statement by a Jewish extremist that offers any of the same themes and then use that as evidence that doing so means they aren't an antisemite.  It is actually evidence that they KNOW they are an antisemite and are simply resorting to a ruse, but they are too stupid to realize others are not taken in by their dishonesty.
> 
> Heck, I am waiting for a reference to Israel Shahak at any minute...….
Click to expand...


To the letter,
while looking for the most vulgar way to smother and get away with,
smugness comes as an added value.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc.  You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith.  We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews?  Really?  Do you apply those same standards to other faiths?
> 
> The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position.  They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior.  Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization.  The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse.  It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is.  Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that *it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women.*  But we dare not speak of it right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that it none sense, they ARE different, and it DOES matter what society is examined.
> 
> This attempt to conflate the situation of dominating Christian, Islamic, Hindu majorities and their treatment of women, to that in the Jewish community, is further slander of a minority where abuse of women is rather an exception than norm, and merely an attempt to downplay vividly catastrophic proportions of their abuse in Islamic societies.
> 
> I find it ironically revealing that You constantly jump with the _"but,but,but...Jews and Christians" _excuses, whenever there's a thread about Islam in the forum, but when suggested to condemn the Women's March organizers who publicly incite to violence against rape victims for criticizing Islam - You boldly refuse, reserving to lame excuses.
> 
> This has nothing to do with "conservative vs liberal", that just none sense.
> There's simply a specific society that stands at the top of the misogyny list in the world , leading by a HUGE margin - and we all know who they are, whose behavior You constantly defend while pretending to ride some moral high horse.
> 
> After being exposed to what they've been and still do to their women home, while experiencing first *hand the mass rape all around the European continent, *it's just too late for You folks, no one buys into these lame manipulations anymore.
> 
> And proportionately - the more desperate the attempt to deceive the victim about the apparently evident situation, eventually the harsher gonna be the natural defense response.
> 
> When all that pressure releases, it's not gonna be pretty at all.
Click to expand...


Thank for finally *clarifying the canards you hypocritically choose to cling to.*  This says much about what you believe, the demonizing disinformation you are willing to support and the lack of a truly inquisitive mind that asks “what is the agenda behind this” before spreading your own brand of hate.  You have toppled off your high horse and landed in the very cess you criticize others for.

Many cultures treat women badly, and at the core of many religions are ancient cultural attitudes that regarded women as little more than property including sects within your own.  One does not have to be a religious scholar to recognize this or understand history.  *At the same time, it is wrong to try to demonize an entire world faith by the actions and beliefs of some of the sects within it or cultures it is spread across*. You accuse me and others of doing it to your faith but look at your own words and your own attitude, an attitude that regards the biblical territory of Israel to be home only to the Jews, and non-Jews would have a “guest” status, regardless of whether or not they have been there for centuries or more.  Sounds like dhimmi to me, an idea that belongs in the past not the present and certainly not the future.

Hatred is hatred, and the more you try to legitimize it, defend it, the more it begins to resemble that of those you criticize.

As to the comment regarding family, I have no idea what Sarsour has to do with anything.  My uncle however, was funny, smart, kind, intelligent and Jewish.  There is no need to draw him in to your attacks.

That is all I will say on this and to you.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc.  You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith.  We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews?  Really?  Do you apply those same standards to other faiths?
> 
> The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position.  They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior.  Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization.  The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse.  It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is.  Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that *it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women.*  But we dare not speak of it right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that it none sense, they ARE different, and it DOES matter what society is examined.
> 
> This attempt to conflate the situation of dominating Christian, Islamic, Hindu majorities and their treatment of women, to that in the Jewish community, is further slander of a minority where abuse of women is rather an exception than norm, and merely an attempt to downplay vividly catastrophic proportions of their abuse in Islamic societies.
> 
> I find it ironically revealing that You constantly jump with the _"but,but,but...Jews and Christians" _excuses, whenever there's a thread about Islam in the forum, but when suggested to condemn the Women's March organizers who publicly incite to violence against rape victims for criticizing Islam - You boldly refuse, reserving to lame excuses.
> 
> This has nothing to do with "conservative vs liberal", that just none sense.
> There's simply a specific society that stands at the top of the misogyny list in the world , leading by a HUGE margin - and we all know who they are, whose behavior You constantly defend while pretending to ride some moral high horse.
> 
> After being exposed to what they've been and still do to their women home, while experiencing first *hand the mass rape all around the European continent, *it's just too late for You folks, no one buys into these lame manipulations anymore.
> 
> And proportionately - the more desperate the attempt to deceive the victim about the apparently evident situation, eventually the harsher gonna be the natural defense response.
> 
> When all that pressure releases, it's not gonna be pretty at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank for finally *clarifying the canards you hypocritically choose to cling to.*  This says much about what you believe, the demonizing disinformation you are willing to support and the lack of a truly inquisitive mind that asks “what is the agenda behind this” before spreading your own brand of hate.  You have toppled off your high horse and landed in the very cess you criticize others for.
> 
> Many cultures treat women badly, and at the core of many religions are ancient cultural attitudes that regarded women as little more than property including sects within your own.  One does not have to be a religious scholar to recognize this or understand history.  *At the same time, it is wrong to try to demonize an entire world faith by the actions and beliefs of some of the sects within it or cultures it is spread across*. You accuse me and others of doing it to your faith but look at your own words and your own attitude, an attitude that regards the biblical territory of Israel to be home only to the Jews, and non-Jews would have a “guest” status, regardless of whether or not they have been there for centuries or more.  Sounds like dhimmi to me, an idea that belongs in the past not the present and certainly not the future.
> 
> Hatred is hatred, and the more you try to legitimize it, defend it, the more it begins to resemble that of those you criticize.
> 
> As to the comment regarding family, I have no idea what Sarsour has to do with anything.  My uncle however, was funny, smart, kind, intelligent and Jewish.  There is no need to draw him in to your attacks.
> 
> That is all I will say on this and to you.
Click to expand...




You're the one who suggested several times to establish Caliphates in my country,
and I'm the hateful among us??

Just face it, not only is this personal Jihad of Yours apparent to all who have witnessed Your evident obsessive abuse and experienced it firsthand, *but even the mods don't buy into this none sense diarrhea anymore.*

Boy is Your virtue signaling pathetic... but keep digging.


----------



## Hugo Furst

rylah said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a website, Eh?
> 
> One of the MODERATOTRS thinks it is funny that she has helped steer a thread about the difference between Eastern and Western European attitudes towards the Islamization of their counties into an anti-Semitic hate fest.
> 
> Most sites want people to stay on topic. This one likes to rub people's noses in the fact they are successful in undermining threads with their ethnic hatred and radical Islamist agendas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the MODERATORS thinks it is funny
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, a board poster did.
> 
> Moderators type in *red.*
> 
> *and get pissed when you attack moderators in open forum.*
> 
> *if you have a problem with a moderator, PM them.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are You suggesting rape victims a 'secure hotline' to their abusers??
> That's original.
Click to expand...


*I'm suggesting  following board rules.

"No Discussing infractions, bans, banned members, or specific moderator actions or duties on the open boards. Issues with moderation should be taken up privately with moderators in PM"*


----------



## rylah

Mindful said:


> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West


*Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*


Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

rylah said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West
> 
> 
> 
> *Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*
> 
> 
> Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
> One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.
Click to expand...


My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.

Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.


----------



## rylah

Tommy Tainant said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West
> 
> 
> 
> *Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*
> 
> 
> Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
> One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.
> 
> Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.
Click to expand...


My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

rylah said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West
> 
> 
> 
> *Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*
> 
> 
> Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
> One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.
> 
> Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
> And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.
Click to expand...

I dont see any link between cultural and physical survival and adherence to religion. Cultures evolve. Always have done. Generally for the better. Our lives are better now than they were 100 years ago and even 50 years ago.


----------



## ESay

rylah said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West
> 
> 
> 
> *Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*
> 
> 
> Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
> One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.
> 
> Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
> And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.
Click to expand...

Eastern Europe sees the same social problems that the Western part. Ageing and declining population - that is the main issue Europe as a whole has (and not only Europe). Economically, the Eastern part isn't even in the same league. 

You mentioned roots. But what these roots are? Christianity? Hardly. I think Ancient Greek and Rome socities are these roots. And basically returning to them began in the Renaissance epoch. But again, this happened primarily in the Western part.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

ESay said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West
> 
> 
> 
> *Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*
> 
> 
> Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
> One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.
> 
> Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
> And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eastern Europe sees the same social problems that the Western part. Ageing and declining population - that is the main issue Europe as a whole has (and not only Europe). Economically, the Eastern part isn't even in the same league.
> 
> You mentioned roots. But what these roots are? Christianity? Hardly. I think Ancient Greek and Rome socities are these roots. And basically returning to them began in the Renaissance epoch. But again, this happened primarily in the Western part.
Click to expand...

I look at the UK and I wonder what these roots are. The UK was always an undemocratic place with a poverty stricken underclass. The current culture has its roots in the various reforming liberal and labour governments which provided health,welfare,education and housing for working people. This only really kicked in from the time of the Legendary Lloyd George. I dont see anyone harking back to a golden age before this. Who would want to live in a society where kids are sent up chimneys, where cripples beg for food in the street and life expectancy is minimal.Compared to today those were the dark ages.


----------



## ESay

Tommy Tainant said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.
> 
> In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.
> 
> Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.
> 
> Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.
> 
> Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West
> 
> 
> 
> *Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*
> 
> 
> Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
> One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.
> 
> Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
> And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eastern Europe sees the same social problems that the Western part. Ageing and declining population - that is the main issue Europe as a whole has (and not only Europe). Economically, the Eastern part isn't even in the same league.
> 
> You mentioned roots. But what these roots are? Christianity? Hardly. I think Ancient Greek and Rome socities are these roots. And basically returning to them began in the Renaissance epoch. But again, this happened primarily in the Western part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I look at the UK and I wonder what these roots are. The UK was always an undemocratic place with a poverty stricken underclass. The current culture has its roots in the various reforming liberal and labour governments which provided health,welfare,education and housing for working people. This only really kicked in from the time of the Legendary Lloyd George. I dont see anyone harking back to a golden age before this. Who would want to live in a society where kids are sent up chimneys, where cripples beg for food in the street and life expectancy is minimal.Compared to today those were the dark ages.
Click to expand...

Well, I think that considering the current demographic tendency and global economic development, Europe won't be able to hold the model of social state it has had since 20th century. It will have to 'americanize' its health care and pension system and education. 

The society of 'universal prosperity' is of course a good thing on the one hand. But on the other, it leads to increasing state spending and deficit, and the lack of competitive and enterprising abilities.


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## cnm

Coyote said:


> Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties. I dont see how that is a good thing. They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.


They don't want to accept that benefits require the assumption of responsibilities.


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## cnm

Mindful said:


> What does a "standard of living" even mean?





Mindful said:


> Ditto.


Jesus.

_*Standard Of Living *
merriam-webster.com
the necessities, comforts, and luxuries enjoyed or aspired to by an individual or group._​


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## cnm

Dogmaphobe said:


> Jesus never raped any children, did not endorse sex with children and never endorsed rape.


God the father endorsed rape and butchery.


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## cnm

Vagabond63 said:


> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.


Be fair, polytheism too.


----------



## Mindful

cnm said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does a "standard of living" even mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus.
> 
> _*Standard Of Living *
> merriam-webster.com
> the necessities, comforts, and luxuries enjoyed or aspired to by an individual or group._​
Click to expand...


This isn't a troll thread.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

ESay said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'*
> 
> 
> Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
> One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.
> 
> Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
> And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eastern Europe sees the same social problems that the Western part. Ageing and declining population - that is the main issue Europe as a whole has (and not only Europe). Economically, the Eastern part isn't even in the same league.
> 
> You mentioned roots. But what these roots are? Christianity? Hardly. I think Ancient Greek and Rome socities are these roots. And basically returning to them began in the Renaissance epoch. But again, this happened primarily in the Western part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I look at the UK and I wonder what these roots are. The UK was always an undemocratic place with a poverty stricken underclass. The current culture has its roots in the various reforming liberal and labour governments which provided health,welfare,education and housing for working people. This only really kicked in from the time of the Legendary Lloyd George. I dont see anyone harking back to a golden age before this. Who would want to live in a society where kids are sent up chimneys, where cripples beg for food in the street and life expectancy is minimal.Compared to today those were the dark ages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I think that considering the current demographic tendency and global economic development, Europe won't be able to hold the model of social state it has had since 20th century. It will have to 'americanize' its health care and pension system and education.
> 
> The society of 'universal prosperity' is of course a good thing on the one hand. But on the other, it leads to increasing state spending and deficit, and the lack of competitive and enterprising abilities.
Click to expand...

I cant accept that really. I think there are vested interests pushing that agenda. If you look at the NHS we have better outcomes for a fraction of US spending. There has been a 10 year strangulation of funding and there are now problems. We need to up our spending to US levels and we will see the problems disappear. There is no room for US vulture type healthcare in an advanced society..


----------



## Vagabond63

cnm said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christians slaughter Muslims and Jews, Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews, and Jews slaughter Muslims and manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians; a pattern that repeats throughout the whole history of monotheism.
> 
> 
> 
> Be fair, polytheism too.
Click to expand...


Polytheists, rarely, if ever, slaughtered each other for reasons of religion. Polytheistic religions tended to look through their respective pantheons and find gods that were rough equivalents and worshipped accordingly.


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## Dogmaphobe

cnm said:


> God the father endorsed rape and butchery.


pure stupidity.


----------



## ESay

Tommy Tainant said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated.  Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.
> 
> Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
> And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eastern Europe sees the same social problems that the Western part. Ageing and declining population - that is the main issue Europe as a whole has (and not only Europe). Economically, the Eastern part isn't even in the same league.
> 
> You mentioned roots. But what these roots are? Christianity? Hardly. I think Ancient Greek and Rome socities are these roots. And basically returning to them began in the Renaissance epoch. But again, this happened primarily in the Western part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I look at the UK and I wonder what these roots are. The UK was always an undemocratic place with a poverty stricken underclass. The current culture has its roots in the various reforming liberal and labour governments which provided health,welfare,education and housing for working people. This only really kicked in from the time of the Legendary Lloyd George. I dont see anyone harking back to a golden age before this. Who would want to live in a society where kids are sent up chimneys, where cripples beg for food in the street and life expectancy is minimal.Compared to today those were the dark ages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I think that considering the current demographic tendency and global economic development, Europe won't be able to hold the model of social state it has had since 20th century. It will have to 'americanize' its health care and pension system and education.
> 
> The society of 'universal prosperity' is of course a good thing on the one hand. But on the other, it leads to increasing state spending and deficit, and the lack of competitive and enterprising abilities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cant accept that really. I think there are vested interests pushing that agenda. If you look at the NHS we have better outcomes for a fraction of US spending. There has been a 10 year strangulation of funding and there are now problems. We need to up our spending to US levels and we will see the problems disappear. There is no room for US vulture type healthcare in an advanced society..
Click to expand...

To up spendings? That is the key issue. Does the UK have 'free' money which can be used for that? IIRC, the UK has one of the biggest budget deficits in the Western Europe.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

ESay said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
> And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe sees the same social problems that the Western part. Ageing and declining population - that is the main issue Europe as a whole has (and not only Europe). Economically, the Eastern part isn't even in the same league.
> 
> You mentioned roots. But what these roots are? Christianity? Hardly. I think Ancient Greek and Rome socities are these roots. And basically returning to them began in the Renaissance epoch. But again, this happened primarily in the Western part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I look at the UK and I wonder what these roots are. The UK was always an undemocratic place with a poverty stricken underclass. The current culture has its roots in the various reforming liberal and labour governments which provided health,welfare,education and housing for working people. This only really kicked in from the time of the Legendary Lloyd George. I dont see anyone harking back to a golden age before this. Who would want to live in a society where kids are sent up chimneys, where cripples beg for food in the street and life expectancy is minimal.Compared to today those were the dark ages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I think that considering the current demographic tendency and global economic development, Europe won't be able to hold the model of social state it has had since 20th century. It will have to 'americanize' its health care and pension system and education.
> 
> The society of 'universal prosperity' is of course a good thing on the one hand. But on the other, it leads to increasing state spending and deficit, and the lack of competitive and enterprising abilities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cant accept that really. I think there are vested interests pushing that agenda. If you look at the NHS we have better outcomes for a fraction of US spending. There has been a 10 year strangulation of funding and there are now problems. We need to up our spending to US levels and we will see the problems disappear. There is no room for US vulture type healthcare in an advanced society..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To up spendings? That is the key issue. Does the UK have 'free' money which can be used for that? IIRC, the UK has one of the biggest budget deficits in the Western Europe.
Click to expand...

Regular polls suggest people would be happy to do that. We are wasting gazillions on the wretched Trident project as well.


----------



## ESay

Tommy Tainant said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern Europe sees the same social problems that the Western part. Ageing and declining population - that is the main issue Europe as a whole has (and not only Europe). Economically, the Eastern part isn't even in the same league.
> 
> You mentioned roots. But what these roots are? Christianity? Hardly. I think Ancient Greek and Rome socities are these roots. And basically returning to them began in the Renaissance epoch. But again, this happened primarily in the Western part.
> 
> 
> 
> I look at the UK and I wonder what these roots are. The UK was always an undemocratic place with a poverty stricken underclass. The current culture has its roots in the various reforming liberal and labour governments which provided health,welfare,education and housing for working people. This only really kicked in from the time of the Legendary Lloyd George. I dont see anyone harking back to a golden age before this. Who would want to live in a society where kids are sent up chimneys, where cripples beg for food in the street and life expectancy is minimal.Compared to today those were the dark ages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I think that considering the current demographic tendency and global economic development, Europe won't be able to hold the model of social state it has had since 20th century. It will have to 'americanize' its health care and pension system and education.
> 
> The society of 'universal prosperity' is of course a good thing on the one hand. But on the other, it leads to increasing state spending and deficit, and the lack of competitive and enterprising abilities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cant accept that really. I think there are vested interests pushing that agenda. If you look at the NHS we have better outcomes for a fraction of US spending. There has been a 10 year strangulation of funding and there are now problems. We need to up our spending to US levels and we will see the problems disappear. There is no room for US vulture type healthcare in an advanced society..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To up spendings? That is the key issue. Does the UK have 'free' money which can be used for that? IIRC, the UK has one of the biggest budget deficits in the Western Europe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Regular polls suggest people would be happy to do that. We are wasting gazillions on the wretched Trident project as well.
Click to expand...

And people understand that this may require additional taxes being paid by them, right? 

The Trident project gives jobs to many people, I suppose. Including high-skilled engineers.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

ESay said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look at the UK and I wonder what these roots are. The UK was always an undemocratic place with a poverty stricken underclass. The current culture has its roots in the various reforming liberal and labour governments which provided health,welfare,education and housing for working people. This only really kicked in from the time of the Legendary Lloyd George. I dont see anyone harking back to a golden age before this. Who would want to live in a society where kids are sent up chimneys, where cripples beg for food in the street and life expectancy is minimal.Compared to today those were the dark ages.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I think that considering the current demographic tendency and global economic development, Europe won't be able to hold the model of social state it has had since 20th century. It will have to 'americanize' its health care and pension system and education.
> 
> The society of 'universal prosperity' is of course a good thing on the one hand. But on the other, it leads to increasing state spending and deficit, and the lack of competitive and enterprising abilities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cant accept that really. I think there are vested interests pushing that agenda. If you look at the NHS we have better outcomes for a fraction of US spending. There has been a 10 year strangulation of funding and there are now problems. We need to up our spending to US levels and we will see the problems disappear. There is no room for US vulture type healthcare in an advanced society..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To up spendings? That is the key issue. Does the UK have 'free' money which can be used for that? IIRC, the UK has one of the biggest budget deficits in the Western Europe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Regular polls suggest people would be happy to do that. We are wasting gazillions on the wretched Trident project as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And people understand that this may require additional taxes being paid by them, right?
> 
> The Trident project gives jobs to many people, I suppose. Including high-skilled engineers.
Click to expand...

Yup. 
Two-thirds of Britons would pay more income tax to fund the NHS, poll finds

HuffPost is now part of Verizon Media

Those engineers could build new hospitals and schools. Do something positive with their talent.


----------



## ESay

Tommy Tainant said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I think that considering the current demographic tendency and global economic development, Europe won't be able to hold the model of social state it has had since 20th century. It will have to 'americanize' its health care and pension system and education.
> 
> The society of 'universal prosperity' is of course a good thing on the one hand. But on the other, it leads to increasing state spending and deficit, and the lack of competitive and enterprising abilities.
> 
> 
> 
> I cant accept that really. I think there are vested interests pushing that agenda. If you look at the NHS we have better outcomes for a fraction of US spending. There has been a 10 year strangulation of funding and there are now problems. We need to up our spending to US levels and we will see the problems disappear. There is no room for US vulture type healthcare in an advanced society..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To up spendings? That is the key issue. Does the UK have 'free' money which can be used for that? IIRC, the UK has one of the biggest budget deficits in the Western Europe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Regular polls suggest people would be happy to do that. We are wasting gazillions on the wretched Trident project as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And people understand that this may require additional taxes being paid by them, right?
> 
> The Trident project gives jobs to many people, I suppose. Including high-skilled engineers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yup.
> Two-thirds of Britons would pay more income tax to fund the NHS, poll finds
> 
> HuffPost is now part of Verizon Media
> 
> Those engineers could build new hospitals and schools. Do something positive with their talent.
Click to expand...

And what percent of salary a worker pays as taxes in your country? 

They won't build schools and hospitals. It is the same as if instead of oculists their job will be done by orthopedists.


----------

