# Marjorie Taylor Greene says we should pull out of NATO



## JimH52 (Jun 30, 2022)

Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
					

Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.




					www.newsweek.com
				




Really?  Are you kidding me?


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## Sunsettommy (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...



How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea.

Did you read the article at all?


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## occupied (Jun 30, 2022)

Brainless contrarianism is all she has.


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

I can see her rationale, but let me drop a reality bomb here. 

America right now, under our current leadership, is weak. If we pull out of NATO, JUST TO _AVOID _ a war with Russia, that comes off as so _weak_, so _terrified_, that Russia can roll over us and leave us in the dust of history, while Russia surges forward as the new world superpower.

The only reason Russia hasn't done it yet, is because they are still afraid of us to the point that they won't make a war with us. 


So yes, avoid a war with Russia, but no, do not pull out of NATO and look like a pussy.


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## JimH52 (Jun 30, 2022)

So...how many of these repubs is Poootin paying?  My gosh...from trump to MTG...they are all carrying his water for him.


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## TNHarley (Jun 30, 2022)

Fuck NATO.


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## OhPleaseJustQuit (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> So...how many of these repubs is Poootin paying?  My gosh...from trump to MTG...they are all carrying his water for him.


So you don't actually have anything to add -- you just want to smear shit.


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## OhPleaseJustQuit (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea.
> 
> Did you read the article at all?


He thinks, *"Really?  Are you kidding me?"* says it all.


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## Sunsettommy (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> So...how many of these repubs is Poootin paying?  My gosh...from trump to MTG...they are all carrying his water for him.



You are batting zero in your own thread, that is embarrassing.

Is my question that difficult for you?

"How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea."


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

The nations founding fathers expressly warned us not to get involved in foreign entanglements.
NATO is the worst kind of foreign entanglement, and does nothing but cost the taxpayer money, and gets us involved in European countries problems they need to solve themselves.  ...


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> The nations founding fathers expressly warned us not to get involved in foreign entanglements.
> NATO is the worst kind of foreign entanglement, and does nothing but cost the taxpayer money, and gets us involved in European countries problems they need to solve themselves.  ...




Those European problems can easily become American problems, if not kept in check.


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## TNHarley (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Those European problems can easily become American problems, if not kept in check.


typical neo-con bullshit.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> *Those European problems can easily become American problems, if not kept in check.*


The wars and various problems between European countries has been going on for centuries, with no end in sight.
America got involved in their nonsense three times in the last century, ww1 and ww2 and Kosovo.
Now they are at each others throat again over Ukraine.
It's time to just say, "Your continent, you fix it", and withdraw our troops and shut down all the US military bases.


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## JimH52 (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Those European problems can easily become American problems, if not kept in check.


Poootin's greatest objective is to weaken NATO.  trump tried hard to do just that for four years.  Now the other repub leg humpers are picking up the Poootin flag.  Why is the repub party becoming so anti-American?


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## Batcat (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> I can see her rationale, but let me drop a reality bomb here.
> 
> America right now, under our current leadership, is weak. If we pull out of NATO, JUST TO _AVOID _ a war with Russia, that comes off as so _weak_, so _terrified_, that Russia can roll over us and leave us in the dust of history, while Russia surges forward as the new world superpower.
> 
> ...


If we pulled out of NATO,  I beleive Putin would overrun Europe by threatening the nations with nuclear destruction. He might leave the UK and France alone as they have nukes.


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> typical neo-con bullshit.




Is it?


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> The wars and various problems between European countries has been going on for centuries, with no end in sight.
> America got involved in their nonsense three times in the last century, ww1 and ww2 and Kosovo.
> Now they are at each others throat again over Ukraine.
> It's time to just say, "Your continent, you fix it", and withdraw our troops and shut down all the US military bases.




It all sounds great, but let's face it, the U.S. and NATO is the only thing keeping Russia from pushing west, and accomplishing what they've wanted since 1917: A U.S.S.R. of all Europe.


Our economy depends on those European nations. Our foreign relations would be non-existent in a soviet Europe. A new U.S.S.R. Would put us in a constant state of "war at any moment", a new cold war. Nipping this shit in the bud is the only thing we can do.


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## JimH52 (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> It all sounds great, but let's face it, the U.S. and NATO is the only thing keeping Russia from pushing west, and accomplishing what they've wanted since 1917: A U.S.S.R. of all Europe.
> 
> 
> Our economy depends on those European nations. Our foreign relations would be non-existent in a soviet Europe. A new U.S.S.R. Would put us in a constant state of "war at any moment", a new cold war. Nipping this shit in the bud is the only thing we can do.


Poootin has this sick goal of restoring the old USSR.  But he will not stop there, if he is successful in the former Soviet satellite countries.  He could make Hitler look like a Boy Scout if he is not stopped.  I don't understand the people in the repub party who appear to be supporting him....like MTG and Carlson.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> *It all sounds great, but let's face it, the U.S. and NATO is the only thing keeping Russia from pushing west, and accomplishing what they've wanted since 1917: A U.S.S.R. of all Europe. Our economy depends on those European nations. Our foreign relations would be non-existent in a soviet Europe. A new U.S.S.R. Would put us in a constant state of "war at any moment", a new cold war. Nipping this shit in the bud is the only thing we can do.*


There isn't any USSR and Russia's citizens and government have totally rejected communism.
So your entire post is pure nonsense.  ....


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> There isn't any USSR and Russia's citizens and government have totally rejected communism.
> So your entire post is pure nonsense.  ....


Have they?



			https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2019-05-09/stalin-is-more-popular-than-ever-in-russia-survey-shows


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Poootin has this sick goal of restoring the old USSR.  But he will not stop there, if he is successful in the former Soviet satellite countries.  He could make Hitler look like a Boy Scout if he is not stopped.  I don't understand the people in the repub party who appear to be supporting him....like MTG and Carlson.




Not all republicans are like this. Only a few, and those who follow because they don't understand weighty subject matter. I am a conservative, and semi-nationalist, but I understand what will happen if Russia isn't stopped.


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## TNHarley (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Is it?


Yes. And historical ignorance.
That has been our policy for generations. How is that working out?


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> Yes. And historical ignorance.
> That has been our policy for generations. How is that working out?




Historical ignorance? We nearly always come out of "historical" situations the winner, and with the upper hand. That's all I want. a United States as a supreme world leader, and a nation to be feared and respected. We are that nation when we stop other nations (Russia) from asserting their version of dominance.


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## TNHarley (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Historical ignorance? We nearly always come out of "historical" situations the winner, and with the upper hand. That's all I want. a United States as a supreme world leader, and a nation to be feared and respected. We are that nation when we stop other nations (Russia) from asserting their version of dominance.


You arent listening. Or you just dont comprehend.
If we do good involving ourselves in other countries shit, why dont we ever fix anything?
And our "version of dominance" is the right one?


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## Vrenn (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> It all sounds great, but let's face it, the U.S. and NATO is the only thing keeping Russia from pushing west, and accomplishing what they've wanted since 1917: A U.S.S.R. of all Europe.
> 
> 
> Our economy depends on those European nations. Our foreign relations would be non-existent in a soviet Europe. A new U.S.S.R. Would put us in a constant state of "war at any moment", a new cold war. Nipping this shit in the bud is the only thing we can do.



Actually, you are correct.  Under Lenin, in order to establish Communism (Marxism) it could not be done without total military takeover of each and every country in the world.  What we see is the Militarism but in reality, it's the means to an end and always has been since 1917.


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> You arent listening. Or you just dont comprehend.
> If we do good involving ourselves in other countries shit, why dont we ever fix anything?
> And our "version of dominance" is the right one?




Yes, our version is the right one because we allow freedom, both politically and in common life. 

And fyi, we have fixed things. We saved Europe's ass several times from slavery and genocide, and we've come out on top with one of the biggest economic booms ever. Only after globalist liberals started leading, did we ever falter.


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## surada (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea.
> 
> Did you read the article at all?



MTG is as dumb as Trump.


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## Sunsettommy (Jun 30, 2022)

surada said:


> MTG is as dumb as Trump.



Why don't you help poor Jim who has run away from my simple question?


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Have they?
> 
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2019-05-09/stalin-is-more-popular-than-ever-in-russia-survey-shows


You are conflating two completely different things.  ...    
The Russian people are grateful to Stalin for defeating the Germans during WWll and honor him on national Patriots Day.
But have absolutely zero desire to become a communist country again. They remember the empty store shelves and log bread lines of Soviet communism.


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## TNHarley (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Yes, our version is the right one because we allow freedom, both politically and in common life.
> 
> And fyi, we have fixed things. We saved Europe's ass several times from slavery and genocide, and we've come out on top with one of the biggest economic booms ever. Only after globalist liberals started leading, did we ever falter.


How is syria? Afghanistan? Yemen? Iraq? Venezuela? Somalia? What about iran? Yeah they are doing great since the CIA fucked the entire country up.
As i said, historical ignorance. Of course, children are ignorant. So im not judging you.


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## Sunsettommy (Jun 30, 2022)

From the article is this incredible ignorance.

"A record 70% of Russian respondents say the late dictator of the former Soviet Union played a positive role for Russia, according to a recent poll by the independent Moscow-based Levada Center. Stalin's previous high mark for approval was 54% in 2016, The Moscow Times reported.

A further 51% of respondents said they viewed Stalin as a person in a favorable light, the highest percentage since 2001, Levada said on its website. Stalin's approval ratings were consistent across all age groups except among the 18-24 group, who were indifferent about the former Soviet leader."

The man KILLED millions of his own people to starvation in the early 1930's killed 30,000 people during the late 1930's purge and ran the country so poorly that they had among the highest suicide rates in the world for decades and was a terrible steward of the land they abused so badly.


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> How is syria? Afghanistan? Yemen? Iraq? Venezuela? Somalia? What about iran? Yeah they are doing great since the CIA fucked the entire country up.
> As i said, historical ignorance. Of course, children are ignorant. So im not judging you.




All of those nations were doing good when we were there. When we left, they fucked themselves up. You can always expect that from simple goat fucking peoples.


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> You are conflating two completely different things.  ...
> The Russian people are grateful to Stalin for defeating the Germans during WWll and honor him on national Patriots Day.
> But have absolutely zero desire to become a communist country again. They remember the empty store shelves and log bread lines of Soviet communism.




As if the Russian people voted for communism, much like Putin was "elected".


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> *As if the Russian people voted for communism, much like Putin was "elected".*


Russia is a democracy and Putin was elected into office.


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## TNHarley (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> All of those nations were doing good when we were there. When we left, they fucked themselves up. You can always expect that from simple goat fucking peoples.


Yeah destroy their govt and kill their citizens and then blame them


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> Yeah destroy their govt and kill their citizens and then blame them




When we left, they fucked things up. Their governments were corrupt and dictorial, or lacked any government at all. For someone so afraid of brown people, you should know that they can fuck up their own shit.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> *All of those nations were doing good when we were there. When we left, they fucked themselves up. *


Now you are just being silly.  ...


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> Russia is a democracy and Putin was elected into office.




"Elected"? 









						Putin cruises to victory with more than 70% of the vote
					

Shocking videos show blatant ballot rigging as Vladimir Putin headed towards a landslide victory in Sunday's Russian presidential election.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				





Putin bars his biggest  political opponents from running, that seems totally fair.


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## TNHarley (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> When we left, they fucked things up. Their governments were corrupt and dictorial, or lacked any government at all. For someone so afraid of brown people, you should know that they can fuck up their own shit.


OMG


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> Now you are just being silly.  ...




Have you ever seen Somalia before?


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> *Have you ever seen Somalia before?*


I've never been there.
But I am a close personal friend with quite a few Somali people who have told me a lot about their country.
What about you?


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> I've never been there.
> But I am a close personal friend with quite a few Somali people who have told me a lot about their country.
> What about you?




Friends with veterans who were in Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq. They all concur that they were shithole countries when they got there, was less shitty when they were there, and then turned to shit when the U.S. left.


I would expect you to defend the goat fuckers. You're a rag head yourself.


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## Mac-7 (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


We should not leave NATO


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## JimH52 (Jun 30, 2022)

Communism....Authoritarianism....Dictatorship......chose one


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## JimH52 (Jun 30, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> We should not leave NATO


Anyone advocating that we leave NATO is either a Poootin plant or they are totally lost in the world,


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> *I would expect you to defend the goat fuckers. You're a rag head yourself.*


There is no reason for you to be rude.  ...  

No, I've never worn a rag on my head.

All of the fighting and unrest in Somalia took place in or around Mogadishu, which is where the US military was stationed.
Few people realize that Somalia is composed of three distinct autonomous states, Somalia, Puntland, Somaliland. Which have their own government and legal system. Puntland the northern third is very stable and prosperous.

I know that people have suggested to you before; to stop posting until you have done some research first on the subject being discussed.
Sounds like some good advice you should heed.  ...


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## Sunni Man (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> *Communism....Authoritarianism....Dictatorship......chose one*


Why just one?
Choose the Democrat Party and you can have all three.  ...


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> There is no reason for you to be rude.  ...
> 
> No, I've never worn a rag on my head.
> 
> ...





Somalia has been run by warlords, whatever government they had/have is in name only.


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## Captain Caveman (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Those European problems can easily become American problems, if not kept in check.


Vice versa, that's why the UK kept out of Vietnam


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


Yes! Adios! 

Time for NATO to grow up

Leave the UN too!


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Vice versa, that's why the UK kept out of Vietnam




New Zealand did.


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## Captain Caveman (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> New Zealand did.


Seven countries got involved in the Vietnamese civil war. I bet they wish they hadn't.


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Poootin has this sick goal of restoring the old USSR.  But he will not stop there, if he is successful in the former Soviet satellite countries.  He could make Hitler look like a Boy Scout if he is not stopped.  I don't understand the people in the repub party who appear to be supporting him....like MTG and Carlson.


Head for Ukraine and sign up. 


Confederate Soldier said:


> Yes, our version is the right one because we allow freedom, both politically and in common life.
> 
> And fyi, we have fixed things. We saved Europe's ass several times from slavery and genocide, and we've come out on top with one of the biggest economic booms ever. Only after globalist liberals started leading, did we ever falter.


This is a fever dream. 


Sunni Man said:


> Russia is a democracy and Putin was elected into office.


Sure, just like Saddam Hussein was "elected."


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## Sunsettommy (Jun 30, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Poootin's greatest objective is to weaken NATO.  trump tried hard to do just that for four years.  Now the other repub leg humpers are picking up the Poootin flag.  Why is the repub party becoming so anti-American?



Your lie is stupid because it was Trump himself who got NATO members to pay up a greater share into NATO and that is according to the NATO Chief:

New Your Post

NATO head praises Trump for tough talk to member countries​
By Marisa Schultz
January 27, 2019

Excerpt:

WASHINGTON – The head of NATO on Sunday praised President Trump for demanding member countries pony up more money, saying Trump’s tough talk has produced “real results.”

“President Trump has been very clear. He is committed to NATO… but at the same time he has clearly stated that NATO allies need to invest more,” North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said on “Fox News Sunday.”

At a NATO summit last summer, Trump demanded that members live up to their burden sharing responsibility of committing at least 2 percent of their GDP on defense spending and urged a 4 percent target.

“Now we see the results. By the end of next year, NATO allies will add $100 billion extra US dollars for defense,” Stoltenberg said. “So we see some real money and some real results, and we see that a clear message from President Trump is having an impact. NATO allies have heard the president loud and clear. And our NATO allies are stepping up. So this is good news.”

LINK

=====

It is your TDS based partisanship that make you irrational and stupid.

STOP LYING!


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 30, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> We should not leave NATO


The US should have pulled out of NATO 30 years ago.


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## Missourian (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> It all sounds great, but let's face it, the U.S. and NATO is the only thing keeping Russia from pushing west, and accomplishing what they've wanted since 1917: A U.S.S.R. of all Europe.
> 
> 
> Our economy depends on those European nations. Our foreign relations would be non-existent in a soviet Europe. A new U.S.S.R. Would put us in a constant state of "war at any moment", a new cold war. Nipping this shit in the bud is the only thing we can do.


The population of the E.U. is 512 million.

The population of Russia is 145 million.

That's a 3 to 1 advantage... PLUS the GDP advantage...if they can't fend off a paper tiger like Russia... They're not trying hard enough.

I mean look at that advantage...without us...

Why are we underwriting their security while they buy natural gas and oil from Russia???

Hell...I could make the argument that us pulling out of NATO would quell Putin's fears and make him less aggressive and more stable.

Right now the balance if power that keeps Russia a first world power is reliance of Western Europe on Russian fuel...and what have we been doing the last 20 years?  Destabilizing Iraq, Libya and Syria in an attempt to run pipelines to Europe that bypass Russia and it's proxies.







__





						Qatar–Turkey pipeline - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				









__





						Iran–Iraq–Syria pipeline - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




Then we meddled in Ukraine...instigating a coop against a democratically elected president of Ukraine...in order to keep that president from establishing closer ties with Russia...









						How and why the U.S. Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine
					

This will document that the ‘new Cold War’ between the U.S. and Russia did not start, as the Western myth has it, with Russia’s involvement in the breakaway of Crimea and Donbass from Ukraine, after Ukraine — next door to Russia — had suddenly turned rabidly hostile toward Russia in February...




					moderndiplomacy.eu
				




Our "helping" is only making things worse IMO.


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## skye (Jun 30, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> Fuck NATO.




Agree wholeheartedly.


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Seven countries got involved in the Vietnamese civil war. I bet they wish they hadn't.




Because of government bureaucracy


Missourian said:


> The population of the E.U. is 512 million.
> 
> The population of Russia is 145 million.
> 
> ...





You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll point out one major thing.



From 1945- until frankly today, the U.S. and Russia were at a constant state of alert, ready for one side to fire the first shot. The U.S. and Russia developed the absolute best planes, tanks, missiles, bombs, tanks, helicopters... All just in case we actually went to war. Europe on the other hand was slow to develop such weapons, and therefore their weaponry/arsenal is inferior to that of the U.S. The U.S. Has the absolute best in men and material, and the world knows it. That's why Europe wants us on their side, and why Russia is hesitant to attack us directly. 

As long as the Russians are bleeding themselves out, even if it's just a little bit, it solidifies America as the worlds greatest military.


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## Missourian (Jun 30, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Because of government bureaucracy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Two Great Wars on their soil... whose fault is it if they didn't prepare for the next one... and again,  how is it our responsibility to underwrite their security?

We spend billions on defense, they have national healthcare and universal basic income.

Perhaps if we saved some of the money we are spending to protect other countries that really don't even like us that much... we'd have more money to fix our infrastructure,  or incentivize new manufacturing,  or improve mental health treatment,  or build government housing for the homeless.

But we can't do those things because we have to police a continent that 360 million of us don't lives on.

If they want some cutting edge tech and don't want to invest in their own R&D and manufacturing, I'm sure McDonnell Douglas, Raytheon and BAE will be more than happy to sell them some.


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## Oddball (Jun 30, 2022)

Batcat said:


> If we pulled out of NATO,  I beleive Putin would overrun Europe by threatening the nations with nuclear destruction. He might leave the UK and France alone as they have nukes.


Thank you, Dick Cheney.


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## AZrailwhale (Jun 30, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> typical neo-con bullshit.


In the days of the founders, the Atlantic was a serious barrier taking weeks to cross.   Today it can be done in minutes.  Foreign entanglements are a lot harder to avoid in the modern world.


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## Confederate Soldier (Jun 30, 2022)

Missourian said:


> Two Great Wars on their soil... whose fault is it if they didn't prepare for the next one... and again,  how is it our responsibility to underwrite their security?
> 
> We spend billions on defense, they have national healthcare and universal basic income.
> 
> ...




But we are the best, and we aim to stay the best, with or without Europe.


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## Mac-7 (Jul 1, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> The US should have pulled out of NATO 30 years ago.


Much like we walked away from europe after WWI?

In 1990 we could have done that

But I dont we could have remained aloof from world affairs


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## Jarlaxle (Jul 1, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> Much like we walked away from europe after WWI?
> 
> In 1990 we could have done that
> 
> But I dont we could have remained aloof from world affairs


NATO's reason for existing ceased to exist in 1991.


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## Mac-7 (Jul 1, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> NATO's reason for existing ceased to exist in 1991.


The need for national security will never cease to exist

I know there are strong arguments against NATO but as we see russia is still a threat to democracies


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## flan327 (Jul 1, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> Fuck NATO.


Added NOTHING TO THIS CONVERSATION


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## JimH52 (Jul 1, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> NATO's reason for existing ceased to exist in 1991.


Well said Comrade.....


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## Missourian (Jul 1, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Well said Comrade.....


I'll bet you think this is a well reasoned argument. 


Just let your Neocon flag fly and say "We have to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here."

Right Jim Bush?


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## Jarlaxle (Jul 1, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Well said Comrade.....


Are youbaked?


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## JimH52 (Jul 1, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> Are youbaked?


Are you Poootin?


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## Captain Caveman (Jul 1, 2022)

Safety in numbers.


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## Jarlaxle (Jul 1, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Are you Poootin?


I accept your concession.


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## JimH52 (Jul 1, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> I accept your concession.


You aren't...just another Poootin Lover.


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## Jarlaxle (Jul 1, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> You aren't...just another Poootin Lover.


You've already admitted you have nothing. Stop dropping trou and shitting on the floor.


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## JimH52 (Jul 1, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> You've already admitted you have nothing. Stop dropping trou and shitting on the floor.


get off the drugs


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## Jarlaxle (Jul 2, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> get off the drugs


Yes, you need to do that.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Jul 2, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...



Probably because these people struggle to even understand what this would mean for the USA.

They look at statistics without understanding what they mean and think the US is somehow spending more money on NATO than other countries, which totally isn't true.


----------



## g5000 (Jul 2, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


Trump and the rest of the RINOs like Gazpacho are all Putin's useful idiots, so this really should not come as a surprise.

They remind me so much of the pinkos of the 60s, 70s, and 80s who all bowed down before Russia in supplication out of fear of the paper tiger.


----------



## g5000 (Jul 2, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> The wars and various problems between European countries has been going on for centuries, with no end in sight.
> America got involved in their nonsense three times in the last century, ww1 and ww2 and Kosovo.
> Now they are at each others throat again over Ukraine.
> It's time to just say, "Your continent, you fix it", and withdraw our troops and shut down all the US military bases.


Typical isolationist bullshit which we last saw with Charles Linbergh's America First party which believed Hitler would go away if we just ignored him.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 2, 2022)

Rus


Missourian said:


> The population of the E.U. is 512 million.
> 
> The population of Russia is 145 million.
> 
> ...


Russia isn't a first world power.  At best it's a second world power, more likely a third world power.  Very poor economy, small population, small GDP and now it appears to have a worthless military.  As they Somalia with  snow.  Your "coup" was a legitimate change of government done by the Ukranian people under their laws.  They had good reason to not want to be back under Moscow's thumb.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 2, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> NATO's reason for existing ceased to exist in 1991.


Did it? Current events seem to indicate otherwise.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jul 2, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Did it? Current events seem to indicate otherwise.


Long past time to walk away. Tell Europe to deal with their own problems.


----------



## surada (Jul 2, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> How is syria? Afghanistan? Yemen? Iraq? Venezuela? Somalia? What about iran? Yeah they are doing great since the CIA fucked the entire country up.
> As i said, historical ignorance. Of course, children are ignorant. So im not judging you.



Clearly the problem is historical ignorance of the Middle East.


----------



## JimH52 (Jul 2, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Did it? Current events seem to indicate otherwise.


Jar sounds like a Putin Plant.


----------



## JohnDB (Jul 2, 2022)

Outside of all the political posturing....

Have people lost their minds?

Look, I think Russia is wrong for what they did.  No doubt about it.  But leaving NATO is not the answer nor is escalating things with Russia.   

The sanctions with Russia is devastating them at the moment.  
Their economy is in tatters just like the Ukrainian economy. 
If we don't offer them some sort of redemption thus is going to escalate to a point that no one is going to survive.  The radioactive fallout of a Russian destruction because of MAD is going to destroy Europe and China anyway. 

This would be the end of the world.  

So....let's give Russia a way out.  They can be great friends and were once strategic partners in destroying terrorists, North Korea and PRC aggression.  

This doesn't have to be this way.  There's a better way than all this trying to act like the biggest bully on the block or destroying alliances so we don't have to keep promises.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jul 2, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Did it? Current events seem to indicate otherwise.


What you should really be asking is whether we would be in this same situation today if not for its relentless expansion.

Imagine if you will how we would react if either the Chinese or Russians signed mutual defense pacts with, say, Cuba and Venezuela, then Columbia and Guatemala, then eventually on to the near entirety of South America and then up though central America and Mexico. When Canada is seriously considering signing one as well, do we think to ourselves "nothing to see here, folks", or do we become alarmed?


----------



## Flash (Jul 2, 2022)

That is actually a good idea.

The combined GDP of Europe is just about that of the US.

They can provide for their own defense against the Russkies.

We are $30 trillion in debt.  We can't afford to continue to pay for military welfare for those countries too sorry to pay themselves.

Besides, we have seen in Ukraine that the Russkies have a shitty conventional military.  Except for their nukes they would be no match for any of the more advanced NATO countries.


----------



## Esdraelon (Jul 2, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Would put us in a constant state of "*war at any moment*", a new cold war.


Yet our current administration is setting up precisely the same scenario by HELPING Iran go nuclear.  As soon as they test and declare themselves a member of the club, they OWN the Straits of Hormuz.  They can turn the free world's oil supply on and off at a whim.


----------



## whoisit (Jul 2, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Those European problems can easily become American problems, if not kept in check.



What European nations would that be since NATO and its rulers has continuously replaced them with third world immigrants, like they are doing America now. 
NWO is doing what they said they would do 109 years ago. Replaced our currency then our peoples with non-assimilating cultures and foreign private owned banks.


----------



## jwoodie (Jul 2, 2022)

NOW is probably not the time to pull out of NATO, but we need to clarify our strategic intentions with respect to Europe and Russia.  Do we want either of them to decide whether we get into another war?  The Bush-Obama-Biden approach of subverting our national interests to those of other countries inevitably leads to our detriment.  

We should be drawing our own red lines and willing to enforce them with asymmetrical countermeasures as needed.  Publicly relying on our "allies" to jointly decide what we are going to do and then announcing our plans to our adversaries is idiotic.  Whether you liked President Trump or hated him, he understood this aspect of foreign policy.


----------



## JimH52 (Jul 2, 2022)

whoisit said:


> What European nations would that be since NATO and its rulers has continuously replaced them with third world immigrants, like they are doing America now.
> NWO is doing what they said they would do 109 years ago. Replaced our currency then our peoples with non-assimilating cultures and foreign private owned banks.


How very White of you!


----------



## whoisit (Jul 2, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> How very White of you!



Thank you.


----------



## WinterBorn (Jul 3, 2022)

Any sentence that starts with "Marjorie Taylor Greene says..." is worthless.


----------



## AsherN (Jul 3, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> Long past time to walk away. Tell Europe to deal with their own problems.


Article 5 was invoked only ONCE since NATO's inception.

Remember who did it?


----------



## whoisit (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> Article 5 was invoked only ONCE since NATO's inception.
> 
> Remember who did it?



No, who did it?


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> Article 5 was invoked only ONCE since NATO's inception.
> 
> Remember who did it?


Don't know, don't care.


----------



## JimH52 (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> Article 5 was invoked only ONCE since NATO's inception.
> 
> Remember who did it?











						NATO Review - Invoking Article 5
					

Edgar Buckley describes how NATO invoked Article 5 on 12 September 2001, 24 hours after the terrorist attacks against the United States.



					www.nato.int


----------



## Peace (Jul 3, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> You are batting zero in your own thread, that is embarrassing.
> 
> Is my question that difficult for you?
> 
> "How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea."


It is a bad idea because being the World Police is better for us because in the end us as the bad guys is better than the rise of Russia and China ruling the World and us having to go at it again to stop tyranny like we did in World War II…

The only mistake Truman made was not leveling Moscow after Japan and killing every Communist in China…


----------



## ThunderKiss1965 (Jul 3, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> So...how many of these repubs is Poootin paying?  My gosh...from trump to MTG...they are all carrying his water for him.


----------



## justoffal (Jul 3, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> I can see her rationale, but let me drop a reality bomb here.
> 
> America right now, under our current leadership, is weak. If we pull out of NATO, JUST TO _AVOID _ a war with Russia, that comes off as so _weak_, so _terrified_, that Russia can roll over us and leave us in the dust of history, while Russia surges forward as the new world superpower.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying...but I'm afraid I agree with MJT...
Jo


----------



## AsherN (Jul 3, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> Don't know, don't care.





> whoisit said:
> 
> 
> > No, who did it?


Just wow. For those of you with goldfish memories, the only time Article 5 was invoked was by the US on Sept 12 2001. And the entirety of NATO joined in the fight.


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 3, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Really?  Are you kidding me?



She is 100% right.  We don't need NATO, NATO needs us.


----------



## AsherN (Jul 3, 2022)

toobfreak said:


> She is 100% right.  We don't need NATO, NATO needs us.


You needed NATO after 9/11.


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 3, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> He could make Hitler look like a Boy Scout if he is not stopped.



SOBER UP, Moondog, Russia has a smaller economy than most of our states or single countries like France.  They can't afford to dominate the globe.


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> You needed NATO after 9/11.


No we didn't.


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 3, 2022)

Batcat said:


> If we pulled out of NATO,  I beleive Putin would overrun Europe by threatening the nations with nuclear destruction. He might leave the UK and France alone as they have nukes.



Overrun Europe?  Do you understand that Russia has no budget for a serious war?  The biggest nation on the planet has a smaller economy than Brazil!!!






And if they shoot off a nuke, every weapon and bomb on the planet will be heading to Moscow.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> Just wow. For those of you with goldfish memories, the only time Article 5 was invoked was by the US on Sept 12 2001. And the entirety of NATO joined in the fight.


Mattered not. There should have been no fight, just a few mushroom clouds.


----------



## flan327 (Jul 3, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> Russia is a democracy and Putin was elected into office.


Are you trying to be funny?


----------



## flan327 (Jul 3, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> Mattered not. There should have been no fight, just a few mushroom clouds.


Disgusting


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jul 3, 2022)

Naah, he's just a shitlord.


----------



## whoisit (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> You needed NATO after 9/11.



For what to help us blow up the buildings? We didn't need any help.

Anyone take the time to listen or read Rebecca Roths story on this?


----------



## whoisit (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> Just wow. For those of you with goldfish memories, the only time Article 5 was invoked was by the US on Sept 12 2001. And the entirety of NATO joined in the fight.



What? I forgot what we are discussing, could you run that by me again in its entirety? Thanks.


----------



## skye (Jul 3, 2022)

NATO is a dinosaur of the Cold War era, obsolete and outdated!

For NATO to remain alive it has to produce  wars, and that's exactly what it's doing in Ukraine and  Russia.

NATO should close shop and stop making trouble wordwide!


----------



## AsherN (Jul 3, 2022)

toobfreak said:


> No we didn't.


So why invoke Article 5 instead of just going it alone?


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 3, 2022)

AsherN said:


> So why invoke Article 5 instead of just going it alone?



Because silly, Biden LOVES NATO and we are still IN NATO!


----------



## Batcat (Jul 3, 2022)

toobfreak said:


> Overrun Europe?  Do you understand that Russia has no budget for a serious war?  The biggest nation on the planet has a smaller economy than Brazil!!!
> 
> View attachment 665807
> 
> And if they shoot off a nuke, every weapon and bomb on the planet will be heading to Moscow.


Perhaps Putin doesn’t believe we would start an all ot nuclear war over   Ukraine or even some member nations of NATO. 

He can always threaten and find out if we have the guts to counter attack. Or even launch a small tactical nuke to see our response. Of course things could rapidly get out of hand and we might possibly end up destroying our civilization. 

No sane man would start a nuclear war. The question is if Putin is sane or possibly if Putin is just acting insane.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-nuclear-weapon-threat-1.6492133
		










						Ukraine war: Could Russia use tactical nuclear weapons?
					

Russia's nuclear weapons are 'combat ready', raising fears they could be used on the battlefield.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Rogue AI (Jul 4, 2022)

There is no point in having troops there or European allies.  The only threat Russia poses is with missiles, which negates the need for US troops in Europe anyway.  NATO is a Cold War relic that needs to die.  The EU has more population, more money, and technological parity or superiority with Russia. They don't need us.


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 4, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Perhaps Putin doesn’t believe we would start an all ot nuclear war over   Ukraine or even some member nations of NATO.


We wouldn't, but if Russia uses nukes, then other countries are not going to throw rotten apples back.



Batcat said:


> He can always threaten and find out if we have the guts to counter attack.


We have already moved quite a bit of strategic forces into the theater, including six Destroyers.


----------



## whoisit (Jul 4, 2022)

Anyone know the difference in the bomb we dropped over Japan and the new nukes we have now? I think it was called the Atom Bomb?


----------



## AsherN (Jul 4, 2022)

toobfreak said:


> Because silly, Biden LOVES NATO and we are still IN NATO!


George W Bush is the one who invoked Article 5.


----------



## beautress (Jul 4, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea.
> 
> Did you read the article at all?


Because 


 .


----------



## beautress (Jul 4, 2022)

A reminder that the US helped charter Nato in 1949, after a bloody war with murderous dictators who conducted genocidal purges In Germany, Russia, Italy, and China..












						General Eisenhower, 1950 - 1952
					






					www.nato.int


----------



## Damaged Eagle (Jul 4, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...






Europe has twice the population of the United States, and are viewed as first world nations, so if they want us in they need to pay two thirds of NATOs operating cost otherwise the US should pull out.

*****SMILE*****


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 4, 2022)

AsherN said:


> George W Bush is the one who invoked Article 5.



Right!  So?  Bush is a RINO.  You didn't know that?


----------



## skews13 (Jul 5, 2022)

TNHarley said:


> typical neo-con bullshit.



See; WWII


----------



## theHawk (Jul 5, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


Is Europe incapable of defending themselves?


----------



## Crick (Jul 5, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> You are batting zero in your own thread, that is embarrassing.
> 
> Is my question that difficult for you?
> 
> "How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea."


How about the value NATO has to the US?  How about the harm such an act would do to America's reputation as a reliable partner in any joint endeavor? As a nation we barely survived Trump's assumption that treaties and promises mean nothing.  Do they mean nothing to you?

I find it difficult to believe the changes that Trumpism has wrought on the Republican party and what it seems to mean to be an American conservative.  Consider how different this discussion would look had it taken place at any point between 1945 and 2016.


----------



## JimH52 (Jul 5, 2022)

Crick said:


> How about the value NATO has to the US?  How about the harm such an act would do to America's reputation as a reliable partner in any joint endeavor? As a nation we barely survived Trump's assumption that treaties and promises mean nothing.  Do they mean nothing to you?


The US leaving NATO is Poootin's wet dream....and apparently the wish of some repubs.


----------



## Crick (Jul 5, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> The US leaving NATO is Poootin's wet dream....and apparently the wish of some repubs.


It has been a commonplace conservative claim for years that liberals seek to destroy the United States.  I now begin to believe that was only projection.


----------



## tahuyaman (Jul 10, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


There are many people who believe we should sever our membership with NATO.   It’s a valid discussion to have.


----------



## tahuyaman (Jul 10, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> It all sounds great, but let's face it, the U.S. and NATO is the only thing keeping Russia from pushing west, and accomplishing what they've wanted since 1917: A U.S.S.R. of all Europe.
> 
> 
> Our economy depends on those European nations. Our foreign relations would be non-existent in a soviet Europe. A new U.S.S.R. Would put us in a constant state of "war at any moment", a new cold war. Nipping this shit in the bud is the only thing we can do.


Russia doesn’t have the capability to push west. Their army is poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly led.  Their morale is in the gutter.   The only card they have to play is nuclear weapons. The west can deter and counter that.


----------



## Confederate Soldier (Jul 10, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> Russia doesn’t have the capability to push west. Their army is poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly led.  Their morale is in the gutter.   The only card they have to play is nuclear weapons. The west can deter and counter that.




I still believe Russia can push west if they throw everything they truly have at us. A war like that will not turn out good for them in the end, but by then countless lives could be lost.


----------



## tahuyaman (Jul 10, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> I still believe Russia can push west if they throw everything they truly have at us.....


They can't short of a nuclear strike and that would lead to the elimination of Russia's society as they know it


----------



## JimH52 (Jul 10, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> There are many people who believe we should sever our membership with NATO.   It’s a valid discussion to have.


Yeah...
Poootin and trump would love to get the US out of NATO....Ivan.


----------



## tahuyaman (Jul 10, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Yeah...
> Poootin and trump would love to get the US out of NATO....Ivan.


Trump?  He’s not part of the discussion.     

Just so I know hiow to address you in the future, are you ten or eleven years old?


----------



## toobfreak (Jul 10, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene says we should pull out of NATO​



I can't wait for MTG to run for POTUS so that I can vote for her!


----------



## JimH52 (Jul 10, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> Trump?  He’s not part of the discussion.
> 
> Just so I know hiow to address you in the future, are you ten or eleven years old?


You don't address me at all...Comrade.  Bye


----------



## tahuyaman (Jul 10, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> You don't address me at all...Comrade.  Bye


That’s fine.  You don’t have much to offer anyway.


----------



## theHawk (Jul 11, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Putin bars his biggest political opponents from running, that seems totally fair.


You mean like Zelensky does in Ukraine?

Yet our government runs around saying they are a democracy.


----------



## otto105 (Jul 12, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> How about explaining WHY, you think that is a bad idea.
> 
> Did you read the article at all?


Expansion of communism?

Are you in favor of that?


----------



## Polishprince (Jul 13, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...




Why are libs so anxious to have a war with the Russian Federation?    

It isn't like they are willing to fight.    Ukraine has recruited very few young libs from American campuses to fight in their army.


----------



## otto105 (Jul 13, 2022)

The best thing in regard to Greene, is to never consider putting it in, in the first place.


----------



## otto105 (Jul 13, 2022)

Polishprince said:


> Why are libs so anxious to have a war with the Russian Federation?
> 
> It isn't like they are willing to fight.    Ukraine has recruited very few young libs from American campuses to fight in their army.


Why do QOP republics side with Putin’s invasion?


----------



## Toro (Jul 13, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...



She's an alt-right pro-Putin shill out of step with the rest of America.


----------



## JimH52 (Jul 13, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Why do QOP republics side with Putin’s invasion?


Cause they are anti-American


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jul 13, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Cause they are anti-American


Predictable as the sunrise, useful as a broken clock.

Are you a person or a bot?


----------



## Rocko (Jul 13, 2022)

NATO prevents wars not only for other countries, but for us too. Ending the alliance is a shortsighted idea


----------



## Friends (Aug 20, 2022)

The Warsaw Pact was never an alliance of like minded countries united by socialist solidarity. It was an empire, conquered in war and held together by force. The Communist dictatorships in the Warsaw Pact were never popular. When Mikhail Gorbachev indicated that Soviet soldiers would no longer shoot at demonstrators in Eastern Europe, the Communist dictatorships there were overthrown, and replaced by democratic governments. The electorates in many of these countries voted to join NATO, as a defensive measure against future Russian aggregression.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Why do QOP republics side with Putin’s invasion?


Saying it’s none of our business is not siding with Russia.


----------



## surada (Aug 20, 2022)

Toro said:


> She's an alt-right pro-Putin shill out of step with the rest of America.


MGT is dumb as a stump.


----------



## otto105 (Aug 20, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> Saying it’s none of our business is not siding with Russia.


It clearly is part of our business.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

otto105 said:


> It clearly is part of our business.


How is it our business?  This conflict is confined to a very small area in Europe.   It’s not going to escalate unless Western Europe / NATO  forces escalation.    It seems that the American globalists and neo-cons want an escalation. 

We have no business being involved beyond a diplomatic role. 

Russia probably would not have invaded had not Biden blundered and said “a minor incursion” by Russia would be  no big deal.


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 20, 2022)

surada said:


> MGT is dumb as a stump.


If trump is re-elected....I expect we will pull out of NATO....to satisfy daddy Poootin.


----------



## Friends (Aug 20, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> How is it our business?  This conflict is confined to a very small area in Europe.   It’s not going to escalate unless Western Europe / NATO  forces escalation.    It seems that the American globalists and neo-cons want an escalation.
> 
> We have no business being involved beyond a diplomatic role.
> 
> Russia probably would not have invaded had not Biden blundered and said “a minor incursion” by Russia would be  no big deal.


We will never know what would have happened if this or that had been different. We do know that Russia has invaded Ukraine in an unprovoked act of aggression, and the Ukrainians are bravely defending their country.


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 20, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> If trump is re-elected....I expect we will pull out of NATO....to satisfy daddy Poootin.




You have a problem with re-setting relations with the Russian Federation?

Do you think that the current state of US-RF relations are sustainable?


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> We will never know what would have happened if this or that had been different. We do know that Russia has invaded Ukraine in an unprovoked act of aggression, and the Ukrainians are bravely defending their country.


Poootin's blunder will set back Russia for years.


----------



## Friends (Aug 20, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> If trump is re-elected....I expect we will pull out of NATO....to satisfy daddy Poootin.


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> We will never know what would have happened if this or that had been different. We do know that Russia has invaded Ukraine in an unprovoked act of aggression, and the Ukrainians are bravely defending their country.



That's one way to look at it.

Another way is to look at it through Russian eyes.

Putin sees himself as Honest Vlad, the Soviet Lincoln trying to pull back the breakaway states like Ukraine back into the union.

Did Russia buttinsky into America's War of Northern Aggression back in the 1860's?


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> View attachment 685100




No one's tax returns indicate how much debt they are in.

And considering the fact that President Trump's debt- whatever it actually is- is usually collateralized or limited as to Trump's liability due to incorporation, it isn't a problem.


----------



## Friends (Aug 20, 2022)

Polishprince said:


> That's one way to look at it.
> 
> Another way is to look at it through Russian eyes.
> 
> ...


Nothing in the United States Constitution forbids secession. The Declaration of Independence implies the right to secession. The American Civil War was only justified as a war to end slavery. Walt Whitman said of the Union cause that it was "legally wrong but morally right."

Russia lacks that justification in Ukraine.


----------



## Friends (Aug 20, 2022)

Polishprince said:


> No one's tax returns indicate how much debt they are in.
> 
> And considering the fact that President Trump's debt- whatever it actually is- is usually collateralized or limited as to Trump's liability due to incorporation, it isn't a problem.


We'll see. There is much about Trump's finances that he has concealed.


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> We'll see. There is much about Trump's finances that he has concealed.




He hasn't concealed it to the IRS- in fact he made a full disclosure and the bureau went over the return line by line.

That being the case, I don't think that there is any illegalities going on, with the eagle eyes of IRS inspectors on it.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> If trump is re-elected....I expect we will pull out of NATO....to satisfy daddy Poootin.


No. Trump would not leave NATO.  I don’t know where you idiots get this fund  idea that Putin dominated Trump.  The fact is, Putin punked Obama.   
T


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> We'll see. There is much about Trump's finances that he has concealed.


How do you know?  Osmosis?


----------



## otto105 (Aug 20, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> How is it our business?  This conflict is confined to a very small area in Europe.   It’s not going to escalate unless Western Europe / NATO  forces escalation.    It seems that the American globalists and neo-cons want an escalation.
> 
> We have no business being involved beyond a diplomatic role.
> 
> Russia probably would not have invaded had not Biden blundered and said “a minor incursion” by Russia would be  no big deal.


The fact that you’re trying to blame President Biden for pootin aggression shows that you know we have an interest in the conflict.


----------



## otto105 (Aug 20, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> No. Trump would not leave NATO.  I don’t know where you idiots get this fund  idea that Putin dominated Trump.  The fact is, Putin punked Obama.
> T


The former 1-term president was pootin’s little bitch.


----------



## surada (Aug 20, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> If trump is re-elected....I expect we will pull out of NATO....to satisfy daddy Poootin.



I hope not.


----------



## surada (Aug 20, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> No. Trump would not leave NATO.  I don’t know where you idiots get this fund  idea that Putin dominated Trump.  The fact is, Putin punked Obama.
> T



Nope Obama expelled over 30 Russians and closed their offices.


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> View attachment 685100


We can make an educated guess!


----------



## San Souci (Aug 20, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


We should also pull out of the UN. Time for America FIRST. Screw the world.


----------



## San Souci (Aug 20, 2022)

surada said:


> Nope Obama expelled over 30 Russians and closed their offices.


Obama quote--"Tell Vlad I can be more flexible after the Election".


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

surada said:


> Nope Obama expelled over 30 Russians and closed their offices.


Putin owned Obama.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

otto105 said:


> The fact that you’re trying to blame President Biden for pootin aggression shows that you know we have an interest in the conflict.


That defies a rational explanation.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

San Souci said:


> We should also pull out of the UN. Time for America FIRST. Screw the world.


We need to stay in the UN to monitor WTF they are doing.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

surada said:


> Nope Obama expelled over 30 Russians and closed their offices.


Putin punked Obama.


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 20, 2022)

San Souci said:


> We should also pull out of the UN. Time for America FIRST. Screw the world.


Right...give the world to Poootin and see how long it be before  Russia is in our back yard.

Go spread your Russian  propaganda somewhere else.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 20, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Right...give the world to Poootin and see how long it be before  Russia is in our back yard.
> 
> Go spread your Russian  propaganda somewhere else.


We need to stay in the UN to monitor and influence what those idiots do.


----------



## Friends (Aug 20, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> How do you know?  Osmosis?


He alone of presidential candidates in 2016 refused to show his tax returns. He said he would show them after he was audited, but he never did.


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> He alone of presidential candidates in 2016 refused to show his tax returns. He said he would show them after he was audited, but he never did.



Mini-Mike Bloomberg never showed his.


----------



## Friends (Aug 20, 2022)

Polishprince said:


> Mini-Mike Bloomberg never showed his.


He was not a serious candidate.


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 20, 2022)

Friends said:


> He was not a serious candidate.



Bloomberg spent millions of dollars running, I'd say that makes him pretty damn serious


----------



## RoshawnMarkwees (Aug 20, 2022)

Sheila Jackson Lee says we should pull out of South Vietnam.


----------



## San Souci (Aug 21, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Right...give the world to Poootin and see how long it be before  Russia is in our back yard.
> 
> Go spread your Russian  propaganda somewhere else.


Bullshit. Putin? There is an old Mafia saying. "Do not fear Rome.The Serpent lies coiled in Naples. Russia is NOTHING. The serpent ,in this case ,lies coiled in Beijing. China is the threat.


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 21, 2022)

San Souci said:


> Bullshit. Putin? There is an old Mafia saying. "Do not fear Rome.The Serpent lies coiled in Naples. Russia is NOTHING. The serpent ,in this case ,lies coiled in Beijing. China is the threat.


You are a Russian plant.


----------



## Friends (Aug 21, 2022)

Polishprince said:


> Bloomberg spent millions of dollars running, I'd say that makes him pretty damn serious


Trump is still hiding stuff. Lot's of stuff.


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 21, 2022)

Friends said:


> Trump is still hiding stuff. Lot's of stuff.



How do you figure?

He's made a complete revelation of his tax return to the IRS, who examined the return and found it to be in order.

If there was a single "eye" that wasn't dotted or "tee" that wasn't crossed, the IRS would have leaked it.

And BTW, they DID leak part of his tax return to the Rachel Maddow program.   How did that turn out?


----------



## Mac1958 (Aug 21, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


Perhaps it's the QAnon foreign policy.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 22, 2022)

Batcat said:


> If we pulled out of NATO, I beleive Putin would overrun Europe by threatening the nations with nuclear destruction. He might leave the UK and France alone as they have nukes.


More than likely we would divvy up europe between us and Russia, maybe make france a province of England and germany both.
 the one piece of the puzzle that needs to be addressed is that without europe Canada will feel like an orphan in a foreign land...How "aboot" that?


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac1958 said:


> Perhaps it's the QAnon foreign policy.


Just another example of the repub party going pro-poootin.


----------



## Batcat (Aug 22, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> More than likely we would divvy up europe between us and Russia, maybe make france a province of England and germany both.
> the one piece of the puzzle that needs to be addressed is that without europe Canada will feel like an orphan in a foreign land...How "aboot" that?


Interesting prediction.

Of course if the big nuke power plant in the Ukraine melts down from military shelling, much of Europe will be effected if not inhabitable. 










						Experts weigh in on the risk of disaster at a Ukrainian nuclear power plant
					

Experts say a disaster at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant in Ukraine could come from the combination of a loss of external power, human error, and military mistake.




					thebulletin.org


----------



## EvilCat Breath (Aug 22, 2022)

We should have pulled out of NATO years ago.  And turned the UN building into a homeless shelter.


----------



## theHawk (Aug 22, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


She doesn’t want a nuclear war, you are against that I see.


----------



## Circe (Aug 22, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


Wow, I love this woman. MTG for president! Trump wanted to pull out of NATO, too. Excellent idea.


----------



## Circe (Aug 22, 2022)

EvilCat Breath said:


> We should have pulled out of NATO years ago.  And turned the UN building into a homeless shelter.


It would be very useful to house the hundreds and thousands of illegals pouring into New York City.

It certainly isn't useful at all now.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 22, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Interesting prediction.
> 
> Of course if the big nuke power plant in the Ukraine melts down from military shelling, much of Europe will be effected if not inhabitable.


I think we should stay in NATO, my post was just a halfhearted alternate in the direction of "why not this scenario as opposed to yours"


----------



## skye (Aug 22, 2022)

God I like MTG!  and she is absolutely right on this!

Time fo  the US to pull out of stupid NATO.

YESTERDAY!


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 23, 2022)

Circe said:


> Wow, I love this woman. MTG for president! Trump wanted to pull out of NATO, too. Excellent idea.



yeah, Make America Irrelevant Again. 
I actually think a lot of countries would support this.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 23, 2022)

skye said:


> God I like MTG!  and she is absolutely right on this!
> 
> Time fo  the US to pull out of stupid NATO.
> 
> YESTERDAY!



How would the US look without NATO, in your humble opinion?


----------



## Batcat (Aug 23, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> I think we should stay in NATO, my post was just a halfhearted alternate in the direction of "why not this scenario as opposed to yours"


I agree that staying in NATO is a good idea. However I agree with Trump that NATO must pay its fair Share.


----------



## Polishprince (Aug 23, 2022)

Circe said:


> Wow, I love this woman. MTG for president! Trump wanted to pull out of NATO, too. Excellent idea.



I agree 1000%.    Maybe if America was committed to pulling Europe's chestnuts out of the fire, they would be a lot more cautious about their foreign policy.


Maybe Germany and France should apologize for its invasions of Russia in 1941 and 1812,  and actually try to get along with their neighbor instead?

Or is NATO going to be the excuse that's used to get America to lead a Grand Armee to attempt to take Russia again?


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 23, 2022)

Circe said:


> Wow, I love this woman. MTG for president! Trump wanted to pull out of NATO, too. Excellent idea.


Вы так думаете, товарищ?

Google is.....Comrade.


----------



## krichton (Aug 23, 2022)

Pulling out of NATO will more or less lead to NATO's dissolution, which will play precisely into Putin's hands.   This was the original plan under the Trump administration.  They weren't talking about trump steaks in those secret backroom meetings with Putin.


----------



## tahuyaman (Aug 23, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> If trump is re-elected....I expect we will pull out of NATO....to satisfy daddy Poootin.


Not a chance.


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 23, 2022)

krichton said:


> Pulling out of NATO will more or less lead to NATO's dissolution, which will play precisely into Putin's hands.   This was the original plan under the Trump administration.  They weren't talking about trump steaks in those secret backroom meetings with Putin.


Which enhances my suspicion on why trump took home so many classified documents.  How many do you thin have been copied and are now in Moscow?


----------



## krichton (Aug 23, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Which enhances my suspicion on why trump took home so many classified documents.  How many do you thin have been copied and are now in Moscow?




The FBI and DOJ will need to comb through every electronic correspondence and who Trump has come in contact with since he left office.


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 23, 2022)

krichton said:


> The FBI and DOJ will need to comb through every electronic correspondence and who Trump has come in contact with since he left office.


The man is a child.  He was probably  boasting to all his Mar-a-lago guest....including agents that have infiltrated his Florida home.  This is one of the worst security breaches in US History.  If he gets away with this....there is No Justice.


----------



## Circe (Aug 25, 2022)

Polishprince said:


> I agree 1000%.    Maybe if America was committed to pulling Europe's chestnuts out of the fire, they would be a lot more cautious about their foreign policy.
> 
> 
> Maybe Germany and France should apologize for its invasions of Russia in 1941 and 1812,  and actually try to get along with their neighbor instead?
> ...


Ukraine keeps begging us to fight the Russians for them -------

Let's not.


----------



## themirrorthief (Aug 25, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Poootin's greatest objective is to weaken NATO.  trump tried hard to do just that for four years.  Now the other repub leg humpers are picking up the Poootin flag.  Why is the repub party becoming so anti-American?


try to make sense with your posts please


----------



## themirrorthief (Aug 25, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> The man is a child.  He was probably  boasting to all his Mar-a-lago guest....including agents that have infiltrated his Florida home.  This is one of the worst security breaches in US History.  If he gets away with this....there is No Justice.


he could take lessons in how to be scum from Hunter Biden the big guys bag man


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 25, 2022)

Circe said:


> Ukraine keeps begging us to fight the Russians for them -------
> 
> Let's not.


Ukraine is making the Russian army look like a bunch of misfits. .


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 25, 2022)

themirrorthief said:


> try to make sense with your posts please


Your comprehension is lacking.


----------



## Vrenn (Aug 25, 2022)

Circe said:


> Ukraine keeps begging us to fight the Russians for them -------
> 
> Let's not.



yer an idjit


----------



## krichton (Aug 25, 2022)

The ppl here who agree with MTG are as insanely stupid as she is.


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 25, 2022)

krichton said:


> The ppl here who agree with MTG are as insanely stupid as she is.


The repub party has an obsession with Poootin.  I don't get it?  Maybe that is why they worship trump.  Poootin and trump are clones


----------



## JimH52 (Aug 31, 2022)

krichton said:


> The FBI and DOJ will need to comb through every electronic correspondence and who Trump has come in contact with since he left office.


How can trump be trusted with American secrets again?


----------



## insolent imp (Aug 31, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


she is on the same level as the " squad".


----------



## otto105 (Aug 31, 2022)

insolent imp said:


> she is on the same level as the " squad".


She's in the gutter while The Squad doesn't do gutter politics.


----------



## krichton (Aug 31, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> How can trump be trusted with American secrets again?



This is a great point.  What if he gets away with all this, and goes on to somehow win the election.  Like holy shit!


----------



## JimH52 (Sep 1, 2022)

krichton said:


> This is a great point.  What if he gets away with all this, and goes on to somehow win the election.  Like holy shit!


Next time he may openly sell secrets to his butt  buddy Poootin....thinking he can also get away with that.

That is how he operates.  He pushes and pushes and pushes....until he is at the edge of legality.

I pray he has slipped over the edge this time.  But he will find another fall guy.  His lawyers better watch their backs.


----------



## CommunistFront (Sep 1, 2022)

NATO is a cold war dinosaur, created to fight the Soviets. It's inherently, to its core, hostile towards Russia, strategically, operationally, and doctrinally. It should be dismantled ASAP, before it starts WW3 with Russia. It's an unnecessary military alliance, designed to fill the coffers of American defense contractors.


----------



## otto105 (Sep 1, 2022)

CommunistFront said:


> NATO is a cold war dinosaur, created to fight the Soviets. It's inherently, to its core, hostile towards Russia, strategically, operationally, and doctrinally. It should be dismantled ASAP, before it starts WW3 with Russia. It's an unnecessary military alliance, designed to fill the coffers of American defense contractors.


Stop carrying water for pootin.


----------



## CommunistFront (Sep 1, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Stop carrying water for pootin.


What I said is a fact, whether it agrees with Putin or not.


----------



## otto105 (Sep 1, 2022)

CommunistFront said:


> What I said is a fact, whether it agrees with Putin or not.
> 
> View attachment 690088​


Opinion isn't fact


----------



## JimH52 (Sep 1, 2022)

CommunistFront said:


> NATO is a cold war dinosaur, created to fight the Soviets. It's inherently, to its core, hostile towards Russia, strategically, operationally, and doctrinally. It should be dismantled ASAP, before it starts WW3 with Russia. It's an unnecessary military alliance, designed to fill the coffers of American defense contractors.


Well said COMRADE!  Vlad must love you.


----------



## CommunistFront (Sep 1, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Opinion isn't fact



It's not an opinion when one states that NATO was created primarily to fight the Russians and that it is strategically, and operationally geared for that role. It's also a fact that it generates an immense amount of money for American and Western European defense contractors. Especially American weapons manufacturers. It's a cash cow. Why should Russia allow Ukraine to turn itself into a launching pad for NATO, threatening its security?

_"The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was created in 1949 by the United States, Canada, and several Western European nations to provide collective security against the Soviet Union." _*Source:* https://history.state.gov/milestones/19451952/nato#:~:text=The North Atlantic Treaty Organization,security against the Soviet Union.

More, why should Russia allow Western Ukrainians under the influence of Washington, to establish a puppet regime in Kyiv that is Russophobic and anti-Russian, undermining its interests in the region? Western Ukrainians along with ultra-nationalists, with plenty of support from the US and its allies, ousted its democratically elected neutralist Government in February 2014, with a rabidly anti-Russian Government. Yet more than half of the country was for president Yanukovych, and lean ethnically, linguistically, economically, and politically towards Russia, not the EU or the new Western-backed regime. The US and the Ukrainian Russophobes and haters created the conditions that led to the war we're seeing now between Russia and Ukraine.


----------



## otto105 (Sep 1, 2022)

CommunistFront said:


> It's not an opinion when one states that NATO was created primarily to fight the Russians and that it is strategically, and operationally geared for that role. It's also a fact that it generates an immense amount of money for American and Western European defense contractors. Especially American weapons manufacturers. It's a cash cow. Why should Russia allow Ukraine to turn itself into a launching pad for NATO, threatening its security?
> 
> _"The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was created in 1949 by the United States, Canada, and several Western European nations to provide collective security against the Soviet Union." _*Source:* https://history.state.gov/milestones/19451952/nato#:~:text=The North Atlantic Treaty Organization,security against the Soviet Union.
> 
> More, why should Russia allow Western Ukrainians under the influence of Washington, to establish a puppet regime in Kyiv that is Russophobic and anti-Russian, undermining its interests in the region? Western Ukrainians along with ultra-nationalists, with plenty of support from the US and its allies, ousted its democratically elected neutralist Government in February 2014, with a rabidly anti-Russian Government. Yet more than half of the country was for president Yanukovych, and lean ethnically, linguistically, economically, and politically towards Russia, not the EU or the new Western-backed regime. The US and the Ukrainian Russophobes and haters created the conditions that led to the war we're seeing now between Russia and Ukraine.


Yeah, it was formed to resist Soviet aggression in Europe.

And now it's need to keep Russia within it's borders.


----------



## CommunistFront (Sep 1, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Well said COMRADE!  Vlad must love you.


ad hominem = logical fallacy.


----------



## CommunistFront (Sep 1, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Yeah, it was formed to resist Soviet aggression in Europe.
> 
> And now it's need to keep Russia within it's borders.


Post-Soviet Russia has never attempted to invade Western Europe. It never had any plans or aspirations to do that, hence your false pretense to justify NATO expansion on Russia's border is unwarranted. You're unnecessarily poking the bear and when you do that long enough, eventually, the bear is going to tear your head off. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


----------



## otto105 (Sep 1, 2022)

CommunistFront said:


> Post-Soviet Russia has never attempted to invade Western Europe. It never had any plans or aspirations to do that, hence your false pretense to justify NATO expansion on Russia's border is unwarranted. You're unnecessarily poking the bear and when you do that long enough, eventually, the bear is going to tear your head off. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


The bear is what.

Pootin's army has been exposed as a corrupt bunch of drunken pirates.


----------



## CommunistFront (Sep 1, 2022)

otto105 said:


> The bear is what.
> 
> Pootin's army has been exposed as a corrupt bunch of drunken pirates.


Believe and say whatever you want, we'll see what's left of Ukraine after this American proxy war with Russia is over. Washington is fighting Russia in Ukraine till the last Ukrainian.


----------



## otto105 (Sep 1, 2022)

CommunistFront said:


> Believe and say whatever you want, we'll see what's left of Ukraine after this American proxy war with Russia is over. Washington is fighting Russia in Ukraine till the last Ukrainian.


Dude, their army couldn't even make it to Kyiv.

Now pootin has had to call up more reserves of drunken Ivans.


----------



## Toro (Sep 1, 2022)

The dumbest person in Congress mouths the dumbest foreign policy.

Surprise surprise.


----------



## CommunistFront (Sep 1, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Dude, their army couldn't even make it to Kyiv.
> 
> Now pootin has had to call up more reserves of drunken Ivans.


You actually believe they want to invade and occupy the whole country? That's not its strategic objective.


----------



## JimH52 (Sep 1, 2022)

CommunistFront said:


> ad hominem = logical fallacy.


You just joined in July.  Was that before or after you went to Mar-a-lago and rummaged through trump's classified stash?....Ivan.


----------



## mamooth (Sep 2, 2022)

MTG's Law:

The more someone claims to hate communism, the more time they spend on their knees servicing Putin and other commies.


----------



## Riff Raff (Sep 3, 2022)

NATO has been a remarkably successful organization. A testament to what White people accomplish without coloreds mucking things up.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 4, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> The repub party has an obsession with Poootin.  I don't get it?  Maybe that is why they worship trump.  Poootin and trump are clones


No, dumbass. YOU are the one obsessed with Putin, mentioning him in damn near every post.


----------



## Friends (Sep 5, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> Saying it’s none of our business is not siding with Russia.


The War in Vietnam was none of our business, but Republicans supported it until we lost.


----------



## Vrenn (Sep 5, 2022)

Friends said:


> The War in Vietnam was none of our business, but Republicans supported it until we lost.



Not just the Reps.  The Dems should take bows on that one as well.  By 1972, for all practical purposes, we had 
Vietnam won.  Due to Cronkite, some really poor sensational reporting and law makers that were there to just get rich, we threw it away and snatch the Defeat from the Jaws of Victory.


----------



## Friends (Sep 5, 2022)

Vrenn said:


> Not just the Reps.  The Dems should take bows on that one as well.  By 1972, for all practical purposes, we had
> Vietnam won.  Due to Cronkite, some really poor sensational reporting and law makers that were there to just get rich, we threw it away and snatch the Defeat from the Jaws of Victory.


This is why we lost that war:

This page from President Eisenhower's Memoires, Mandate for Change, page 372, shows that he believed Ho Chi Minh would have won any free election in Vietnam in 1954. This is certainly why the U.S. did not permit such an election, though the Geneva Convention of 1954 required it.

_*I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the populations would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader 











						Selection from Eisenhower's Memoires
					





					msuweb.montclair.edu
				



*_


----------



## Vrenn (Sep 5, 2022)

Friends said:


> This is why we lost that war:
> 
> This page from President Eisenhower's Memoires, Mandate for Change, page 372, shows that he believed Ho Chi Minh would have won any free election in Vietnam in 1954. This is certainly why the U.S. did not permit such an election, though the Geneva Convention of 1954 required it.
> 
> ...



80% of the population during that beginning time would vote for any leader that would promise them one bowl of rice a day.

But in 1969, we changed the war doctrine and started to actually win the war.  Before, the Navy and the AF were severely curtailed as directed by LBJ.  Westmoreland could only do what LBJ would allow him to do and that wasn't much with air power.  Under Nixon and Abrams (now you know who the tank is named for) it turned the Navy and AF loose and it started preemptive strikes and not flying the same damned flight path, the same time of day.  

The big thing was when Cronkite and his media claimed we lost Tet when in fact, the VC was completely destroyed never to come back and the NVA had to retreat to rebuild.  This was 1968.  Had we turned the Air Power loose like we did in the 70s, they would have had nothing to return to.  One of the outfits I was with flew AC-130s.  We stopped 199 out of 200 modes of transportation coming down the HoChi Min Trail.  This includes trucks, barges, ships, cars, trailers, Elephants and bicycles.  The B-57Gs were doing the same.  The only way the North could get their fake Cong to work was to strip local villages.,  By 1972, the Villages started to kill them outright.;  

The problem was, this wasn't the message the Media in the US was telling.  The AF had our own little war going on in Laos that the media ignored.  But in early 1970, the Army crossed into Laos.  And that was reported negatively in the US Media.  This is what brought on Kent State.  And it also had the affect on the treaty in late 1972 early 1973 where the North was allowed to restock in Laos and Cambodia.  It took them 2 years and then they attacked.  Meanwhile, the promise of the restocking for the South never happened.  The South had over a 1.3 million man army while the North was attacking with just over 500K.  The problem was the South didn't have enough fuel for it's vehicles or planes and they had enough rifles for about 400K troops with only a full mag for each one.  Ford and Congress just looked the other way.  Meanwhile, our Air Force and Navy in the Area had to sit idle and watch.  I knew it was over when a captured F-5 attacked the Presidents Palace in Saigon.


----------



## Friends (Sep 5, 2022)

Vrenn said:


> 80% of the population during that beginning time would vote for any leader that would promise them one bowl of rice a day.
> 
> But in 1969, we changed the war doctrine and started to actually win the war.  Before, the Navy and the AF were severely curtailed as directed by LBJ.


If this is what you mean by being "sharply curtailed," I am glad that the U.S. military was sharply curtailed.

----------

Total U.S. bomb tonnage dropped during: World War II = 2,057,244 tons Vietnam War = 7,078,032 tons (3-1/2 times WWII tonnage)



			https://wikieducator.org/images/8/8b/VIETNAM_WAR_BACKGROUND.pdf


----------



## Vrenn (Sep 5, 2022)

Friends said:


> If this is what you mean by being "sharply curtailed," I am glad that the U.S. military was sharply curtailed.
> 
> ----------
> 
> ...



When you sharply curtail your air power, you lose lives on the ground.  And Vice Versa.  When LBJ and Westmoreland were in charge, we played a game of "Body Counts".  If you get a chance, watch "The Boys from Company C" and watch them do a high body count.  Under Nixon and Abrams, the body counts had to be proven.  And you won't find all that on the Internet since history is written by the winners and you peaceniks think you won so you wrote the history.  You had to be there and you weren't.  

What you don't understand, when you have a military, you use it sparingly.  But when you do use it, you get the hell out of the way and allow them to win.  You would have made a fine Politico in the middle 60s.


----------



## Friends (Sep 5, 2022)

Vrenn said:


> When you sharply curtail your air power, you lose lives on the ground.  And Vice Versa.  When LBJ and Westmoreland were in charge, we played a game of "Body Counts".  If you get a chance, watch "The Boys from Company C" and watch them do a high body count.  Under Nixon and Abrams, the body counts had to be proven.  And you won't find all that on the Internet since history is written by the winners and you peaceniks think you won so you wrote the history.  You had to be there and you weren't.
> 
> What you don't understand, when you have a military, you use it sparingly.  But when you do use it, you get the hell out of the way and allow them to win.  You would have made a fine Politico in the middle 60s.


The War in Vietnam was wrong from the start. The vast majority of the Vietnamese supported the Communists. Vietnam was unimportant to our security and our economy.


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## themirrorthief (Sep 5, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Which enhances my suspicion on why trump took home so many classified documents.  How many do you thin have been copied and are now in Moscow?


fbi agents also stole several pair of Melania soiled underwear...Putin has a pair now but he wears them


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## themirrorthief (Sep 5, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Next time he may openly sell secrets to his butt  buddy Poootin....thinking he can also get away with that.
> 
> That is how he operates.  He pushes and pushes and pushes....until he is at the edge of legality.
> 
> I pray he has slipped over the edge this time.  But he will find another fall guy.  His lawyers better watch their backs.


despite spending millions on their witch hunt...poor dems have nothing to convict trump on...but what if they investigated old sick Hillary that way..wow


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## tahuyaman (Sep 5, 2022)

Friends said:


> The War in Vietnam was none of our business, but Republicans supported it until we lost.


A Democrat got us into that war


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## tahuyaman (Sep 5, 2022)

Saying it’s none of our business is not siding with Russia.



Friends said:


> The War in Vietnam was none of our business, but Republicans supported it until we lost.


What does that have to do with my comment yiu quoted?


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## Friends (Sep 5, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> A Democrat got us into that war


When President Eisenhower made the decision not to sign and honor the Geneva Agreement of 1954, ending the colonial war between France and the Viet Minh, he guaranteed that there would be a war in Vietnam in the 1960's.


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## tahuyaman (Sep 5, 2022)

Friends said:


> When President Eisenhower made the decision not to sign and honor the Geneva Agreement of 1954, ending the colonial war between France and the Viet Minh, he guaranteed that there would be a war in Vietnam in the 1960's.


JFK got us in.  LBJ deepened our involvement.  Nixon got us out.  He did it poorly, but......


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## JimH52 (Sep 5, 2022)

themirrorthief said:


> fbi agents also stole several pair of Melania soiled underwear...Putin has a pair now but he wears them


maybe she signed a couple nudes fior them?


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## Friends (Sep 5, 2022)

tahuyaman said:


> JFK got us in.  LBJ deepened our involvement.  Nixon got us out.  He did it poorly, but......


Eisenhower got us in.

Kennedy and Johnson were afraid that if they lost another country to Communism, the Republicans would have a campaign issue, and they would have.

In 1954 Vice President Nixon urged the input of American troops to keep the French from losing the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. Nixon deserved to have his presidency ruined by the War in Vietnam and it was.


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## Papageorgio (Sep 5, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene Urges U.S. to Leave NATO to Avoid War with Russia
> 
> 
> Russian officials have also said that U.S.'s decision to expand in Europe will not restrain or intimidate the country as tensions remain high.
> ...


So you have nothing to support your opposing view other than saying something stupid?


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## tahuyaman (Sep 5, 2022)

Friends said:


> Eisenhower got us in.
> 
> Kennedy and Johnson were afraid that if they lost another country to Communism, the Republicans would have a campaign issue, and they would have.
> 
> In 1954 Vice President Nixon urged the input of American troops to keep the French from losing the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. Nixon deserved to have his presidency ruined by the War in Vietnam and it was.





Friends said:


> Eisenhower got us in.
> 
> Kennedy and Johnson were afraid that if they lost another country to Communism, the Republicans would have a campaign issue, and they would have.
> 
> In 1954 Vice President Nixon urged the input of American troops to keep the French from losing the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. Nixon deserved to have his presidency ruined by the War in Vietnam and it was.


The first combat soldiers were sent to Vietnam in 1965.


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## Leweman (Sep 5, 2022)

It's inarguable.  Next.


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## Vrenn (Sep 6, 2022)

Friends said:


> The War in Vietnam was wrong from the start. The vast majority of the Vietnamese supported the Communists. Vietnam was unimportant to our security and our economy.


When  the split happened under the French, there wasn't' a Communist North.  Ho had to make a choice.  He needed war materials bad and struck a deal with China and Russia.   But to strike a deal with those two, one had to make certain trades.  Hence the Soviet Communist style government.  What's funny, in the end of the French occupation, Ho tried to go to China but the Chinese turned him down.  That's when Ho got in bed with Stalin just before Stalin died.  Even China couldn't stand that type of Government so China didn't really contribute that much.  

You keep repeating the same phrase over and over about what the majority of the Vietnamese wished.  Did you personally ask them yourself?  I did.  And got more "Who Cares, just keep the rice coming" than for or against.  I think it's time to put you in the Gracie file.  Say goodnight Gracie.


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## flan327 (Sep 6, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> I can see her rationale, but let me drop a reality bomb here.
> 
> America right now, under our current leadership, is weak. If we pull out of NATO, JUST TO _AVOID _ a war with Russia, that comes off as so _weak_, so _terrified_, that Russia can roll over us and leave us in the dust of history, while Russia surges forward as the new world superpower.
> 
> ...


I like cars

Why is PUSSY an insult?
What about Octopussy?


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## flan327 (Sep 6, 2022)

Leweman said:


> It's inarguable.  Next.


So you are giving up?


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## sartre play (Sep 6, 2022)

Some just cant grasp that we are not an island completely independent from the world and fully self sustaining.


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## Friends (Sep 6, 2022)

Vrenn said:


> You keep repeating the same phrase over and over about what the majority of the Vietnamese wished.  Did you personally ask them yourself?  I did.  And got more "Who Cares, just keep the rice coming" than for or against.  I think it's time to put you in the Gracie file.  Say goodnight Gracie.


On July 21, 1954, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) and France signed an agreement in Geneva under which the military of both sides—the Vietnamese People’s Army and the French Union Army—would temporarily assemble in two regions while waiting for a general election to unify Vietnam in the summer of 1956.          

In his memoirs _Mandate for Change_, President Eisenhower believed that Ho Chi Minh would receive 80-percent of the vote.









						Some Clarifications on Lịch sử Nam bộ kháng chiến
					

Nguyen Trong Xuat (Editorial Board of Lịch sử Nam bộ kháng chiến) responds to some of the issues and questions raised by the reviewers of History of Southern Resistance and provides some additional context to the publication.




					www.wilsoncenter.org
				





tahuyaman said:


> The first combat soldiers were sent to Vietnam in 1965.


Johnson's choice was to send them in or to lose Vietnam to the Communists. Johnson remembered the McCarthy Era when President Truman was blamed for losing China to the Communists.


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## JimH52 (Sep 6, 2022)

sartre play said:


> Some just cant grasp that we are not an island completely independent from the world and fully self sustaining.


Convince the MAGA repubs.


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## toobfreak (Sep 6, 2022)

JimH52 said:


> Marjorie Taylor Greene says we should pull out of NATO​



NATO is a useless money pit which only serves our allies while we absorb 98% of the cost, yet, does anyone really believe if the USA came to harm in a bad way and really needed help that one of these other countries would come in a big way to help US out?

If we put all the money spent on NATO towards other things, we'd get far more value for the money, and just because we aren't part of NATO doesn't mean that we can't still stick to backing up countries in need or them helping us!


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## AsherN (Sep 7, 2022)

toobfreak said:


> NATO is a useless money pit which only serves our allies while we absorb 98% of the cost, yet, does anyone really believe if the USA came to harm in a bad way and really needed help that one of these other countries would come in a big way to help US out?
> 
> If we put all the money spent on NATO towards other things, we'd get far more value for the money, and just because we aren't part of NATO doesn't mean that we can't still stick to backing up countries in need or them helping us!


Article 5 has been invoked only 1 time. By the US after 9/11. And yes, NATO countries came and helped.
Do you seriously believe that if the US pulled out of NATO, the US would get rid of all the personnel and equipment stationed in Europe? Because that is your "cost".


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## otto105 (Sep 7, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> No, dumbass. YOU are the one obsessed with Putin, mentioning him in damn near every post.


So, you lika the pootin...


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## otto105 (Sep 7, 2022)

toobfreak said:


> NATO is a useless money pit which only serves our allies while we absorb 98% of the cost, yet, does anyone really believe if the USA came to harm in a bad way and really needed help that one of these other countries would come in a big way to help US out?
> 
> If we put all the money spent on NATO towards other things, we'd get far more value for the money, and just because we aren't part of NATO doesn't mean that we can't still stick to backing up countries in need or them helping us!


Provide proof of the 98% claim.


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## Jarlaxle (Sep 7, 2022)

otto105 said:


> So, you lika the pootin...


No, that's you.


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## Couchpotato (Sep 13, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Those European problems can easily become American problems, if not kept in check.


Not being in NATO doesnt preclude us from involving ourselves in the issues that are in our national interest, it does keep us out of the ones that arent though so.


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