# Single-payer HC plan IS the answer......



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)

The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.

Who would LOSE under such a single payer system??? 
Insurance companies' CEOs and their board members.

Who would WIN under such a single payer system??? 
ALL of us.....


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## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...


Single payer would be fine only if its 100% voluntary, an "opt in"... 
no one should be forced into the cancer that is socialism.


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## Norman (Jul 18, 2017)

Trump asked "How to make America great", not "how to make America Venezuela".


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## RDD_1210 (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...



Would you not opt in? 

If you say no, how do you plan to pay for medical care should you get sick? And I'm talking cancer, etc...


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'




Here, mull this over:

*United States*

> *Health expenditure per capita: $8,713*
> Expenditure as a pct. of GDP: 16.4%
> Obesity rate: 35.3%
> Life expectancy: 78.8

VERSUS

*Sweden*

> *Health expenditure per capita: $4,904*
> Expenditure as a pct. of GDP: 11.0%
> Obesity rate: 11.7%
> Life expectancy: 82.0

Countries spending the most on health care


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



Why not adopt the Nixon\Kennedy plan and call it a day.

Only those that can not afford healthcare should be put in a government plan and the rest can buy themselves if self employed or get it through their job.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Norman said:


> *Trump asked* "How to make America great",




Actually, Trump did not ask......He stated that he would.....

*Tired of so much "winning" yet???*


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

RDD_1210 said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...


I don't live life that way, worrying what might or might not happen… That's no way to live. By the way insurance/single payer is not healthcare… LOL


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## TNHarley (Jul 18, 2017)

Unconstitutional
Abuse of power
Govt sucks at just about everything
Fuck no
Although it would probably be better than the ACA, i still wouldnt want it.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Bruce_T_Laney said:


> Only those that can not afford healthcare should be put in a government plan and the rest can buy themselves if self employed or get it through their job.



I have no problem with the above......


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

All socialist entitlement programs should be an "opt in"... 
if they were worth the paper they were printed on they would not require everyone's participation. Lol


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## eflatminor (Jul 18, 2017)

Single payer = indentured servitude for those that work in the healthcare industry.  

The left truly are an immoral people.

Plus there's the legality of the idea:  There isn't a thing in the enumerated powers of the Constitution that grants the federal government the power to run healthcare.  You'll need an amendment.  Good luck with that.

So if you do get your amendment, can we all look forward to VA-like care?

Monumentally stupid idea.


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## RDD_1210 (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> RDD_1210 said:
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> 
> > Rustic said:
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What might or might not happen??

You do know that you will one day get sick right? Do you plan on not seeking medical treatment?


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

What has always amazed me is that right wingers would rather send an ever increasing amount to pay for their HC premium to a private insurance company that ONLY cares about profits.......

........rather than choosing to send a much smaller payment to the federal government (a-la, Medicare) that is not in the "business" of making huge profits over the plan.


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

eflatminor said:


> Single payer = indentured servitude for those that work in the healthcare industry.
> 
> The left truly are an immoral people.
> 
> ...


True, the VA is beyond fucked up.


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## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...



Here, mull this over

Population of USA - 321 Million
USA Debt as % of GDP - 106%
Debt per citizen of USA - US$61,000

Population of Sweden  -  9 Million
Swedish Debt as % of GDP - 42%
Debt per citizen of Sweden - US$22,000


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> What has always amazed me is that right wingers would rather send an ever increasing amount to pay for their HC premium to a private insurance company that ONLY cares about profits.......
> 
> ........rather than choosing to send a much smaller payment to the federal government (a-la, Medicare) that is not in the "business" of making huge profits over the plan.


Only Fucking morons trust the federal government... lol


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## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> company that ONLY cares about profits.......



I'm not interested in any company that doesn't care about profits ... because a company that doesn't care about profits can only stay in business by picking someone else's pockets.


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## MeBelle (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> *The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system*.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



_Who would lose?_ People would lose. Healthcare would become more scarce, providers would flee.


_'The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.'_

Wrong! Just look at Canada. They have relaxed their healthcare rules and  have included in their law that Canadian citizens can purchase insurance.  Now, WHY would Canada do that?  Because single payer doesn't work. A 40% tax rate is bull pucky.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

eflatminor said:


> Plus there's the legality of the idea: There isn't a thing in the enumerated powers of the Constitution that grants the federal government the power to run healthcare. You'll need an amendment. Good luck with that.




here's a moron that claims that Medicare was passed with a federal amendment to the Constitution......


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> nat4900 said:
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> > fncceo said:
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Bingo!
The debt is too large to ever be paid back, but yet the fucking morons want to include more socialist entitlement programs...
Lol


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## RDD_1210 (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > What has always amazed me is that right wingers would rather send an ever increasing amount to pay for their HC premium to a private insurance company that ONLY cares about profits.......
> ...



Says the guy that doesn't have a plan for the day he gets sick. 

Mr. Smarty Pants here.


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

RDD_1210 said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
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Well if it comes down to money I don't have to worry about it. But the fact remains insurance/single payer is not healthcare… LOL


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## Theowl32 (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...


Huh, how many illegals live in Sweden? Ever consider all factors, or do you just go to the success of those countries like every left wing trained monkey?

I love too how you always bring up the lack of gun violence in those countries, and I wonder. How many MS13 gang members live there? Crips? Bloods? Latin Kings? Not many?

Oh, their rape rates went up exponentially over the last 2 years or so. I wonder why the pigs in the media don't report that. Any reason you think the world media does not hype that?

The bottom line is you may be right. Not that it is the best answer. Right now there is a real problem, and the single payer trojan horse better known as obamacare is the reason. The one to blame for that is John Roberts.

Here is the reality of the situation. Many people were kicked off of their health insurance (conservatives) cause their premiums went up sky high. No longer did companies or businesses offer health insurance, by keeping their employees under 30 hours a week.

Many conservatives (million of people) have preexisting conditions and they had no choice but to get on the obamacare. Regardless of its failure.

Now, there is really no way for the political move to kick ALL of those people off the insurance plans they have, cause it will be impossible for those millions with preexisting condition to get insurance. It will be a political disaster.

Imagine if any politician even hints at taking SS away from everyone.

Obamacare being passed has screwed pretty bad. The worst part is the republicans will get the blame for all of it, even though it is all about the democrat policies that caused all of it. Much like the housing bubble caused by democrat policies. Instead Bush got ALL of the blame.

This is the way politics is in this country. I blame the pravda media on the left and their agenda along with those pathetic John Lennon hippy marxist professors feeding pure shit into the minds of impressionable kids.

We are fucked.....

Fuck you Nat. There you go.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Here, mull this over
> 
> Population of USA - 321 Million
> USA Debt as % of GDP - 106%
> ...



Well, you really did not respond to MY post.....but, fine.....

Should we try MY suggestion then in a state like Delaware or Montana, or south Dakota where their respective population is the same or less than Sweden???

Mull THAT over......


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## RDD_1210 (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> RDD_1210 said:
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> > Rustic said:
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You have hundreds of thousands of dollars just sitting in the bank in case you get sick?

Why do I somehow doubt that.


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## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Should we try MY suggestion then in a state like Delaware or Montana, or south Dakota where their respective population is the same or less than Sweden???



Only with the consent of the voters of that state and only funded by state revenue ... knock yourself out.


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## NLT (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...


the government cant even get vets health care right, Single payer would be a disaster


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> I'm not interested in any company that doesn't care about profits ... because a company that doesn't care about profits can only stay in business by picking someone else's pockets.




Sure.....compare a car manufacturer's incentive, to the incentive of some HC insurer in denying cancer treatment to some poor slob.


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

RDD_1210 said:


> Rustic said:
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> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
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I have lots, lots of collectible firearms/antiques... and have been out of debt for 20+ years. Have you ever heard of preventive care? Lol


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## MeBelle (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> *What has always amazed me is that right wingers would rather send an ever increasing amount to pay for their HC premium to a private insurance company that ONLY cares about profits.......*
> 
> ........rather than choosing to send a much smaller payment to the federal government *(a-la, Medicare*) that is not in the "business" of making huge profits over the plan.




Your premise is false. I invest in healthcare companies. Of course I want to make some $ to retire on.


If Medicare is so wonderful, WHY is there Managed Medicare?  
Who do you think Managed Medicare benefits financially? The businesses that run managed Medicare.

You should do your research rather than spout off talking points.


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## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Sure.....compare a car manufacturer's incentive, to the incentive of some HC insurer in denying cancer treatment to some poor slob.



If the poor slob didn't purchase coverage ... who cares?  What good is an insurance company who goes out of business and leaves millions without coverage?


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

MeBelle said:


> _Who would lose?_ People would lose. Healthcare would become more scarce, *providers would flee*.




Yes, "true".....Most doctors and nurses would choose to work as WalMart greeters.......(Hannity would be proud of you parroting him.)

The whole FUCKING WORLD already has done this....and somehow some American morons "think" that they are better informed.


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## MeBelle (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Well, you really did not respond to MY post.....but, fine.....
> 
> Should we try MY suggestion then in a state like Delaware or Montana, or south Dakota where their respective population is the same or less than Sweden???
> 
> Mull THAT over......



No. Sweden is going broke.

Vermont already tried one payer.  Google it to see what happened.


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> MeBelle said:
> 
> 
> > _Who would lose?_ People would lose. Healthcare would become more scarce, *providers would flee*.
> ...


 The federal government is not the answer to anything but A more fucked up society… Fuck


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## JGalt (Jul 18, 2017)

Why do they call it "*single* payer" when everyone pays? If it truly was "single payer", each individual would pay for his or her own health care.

Just another example of how liberals like to distort the meaning of words. Just call it what it is: Communism or Socialism.


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## MeBelle (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> MeBelle said:
> 
> 
> > _Who would lose?_ People would lose. Healthcare would become more scarce, *providers would flee*.
> ...



The whole F^cking world is turning away from one payer OR is going broke.  Do your research!


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Theowl32 said:


> Fuck you Nat. There you go.




WOW........the Owlie really hurt my feelings......LOL


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

MeBelle said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you really did not respond to MY post.....but, fine.....
> ...


Yup, the "village" has already been tried... and proven to be a failure in every way. Lol


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## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

JGalt said:


> Why do they call it "*single* payer" when everyone pays? If it truly was "single payer", each individual would pay for his or her own health care.
> 
> Just another example of how liberals like to distort the meaning of words.



They used to call if 'free' health care ... but they couldn't discuss it because the other side wouldn't stop laughing.


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## Avatar4321 (Jul 18, 2017)

Solution? But you've been saying aca  is working. If its working why do you need to fix it? If its not why aren't you working with Republicans to get rid of it?


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## JBond (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...


Nat and his band of imbeciles doubled the cost of health insurance on purpose and now he wants you to pay his way for him. Not a big surprise.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

RDD_1210 said:


> You have hundreds of thousands of dollars just sitting in the bank in case you get sick?




Here's something to consider........

The average hip replacement in the USA costs *$40,364*. .............In Spain, it costs *$7,371*


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## MarathonMike (Jul 18, 2017)

Allow health care costs to continue skyrocketing and just say "Hey the gubment will pay for everything and everyone". That means everyone who works would have a new line item in their pay advice called SINGLE PAYER TAX just like we do for Medicare.  As costs continue growing, single payer will consume an ever larger portion of your check. Government will also expand to manage the 300 million new people covered. And with 300 million plus now with "free" health care, the hospitals will be filled to the rafters at the same time the number of doctors shrinks. Sounds great, doesn't it?


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## JGalt (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> JGalt said:
> 
> 
> > Why do they call it "*single* payer" when everyone pays? If it truly was "single payer", each individual would pay for his or her own health care.
> ...



Any thing they call it, it's still "Socialized medicine". The FreeShitArmy is always looking for unicorns, the big rock candy mountain, and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

Paying into any sort of a pool only makes lawyers and doctors richer, it justifies them charging more.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

*Single-payer HC plan IS the answer......*

The question is...what's a really bad liberal idea?


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## Mac1958 (Jul 18, 2017)

We're headed in this direction, but I'm sure most of the Democrat legislators know that true Single Payer would not be a good thing, just as most Republican legislators know that true free market wouldn't be a good thing.

I'm still betting I'll get what I want:  An expansion of our already-functioning Medicare / Medicare Advantage / Medicare Supplement system, the best and most efficient blend of public and private funding.
.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

NLT said:


> the government cant even get vets health care right, Single payer would be a disaster




perhaps......and THAT is because of our never-ending wars placing MORE veterans needing care (mental health especially) while not adequately increasing funding to the system......

Ever wonder how OTHER countries treat THEIR veterans???


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## CrusaderFrank (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



One million patients a week cannot get a GP appointment, statistics show

Hail Single Payer!!

"One million patients a week cannot get appointments with GPs, amid the longest waiting times on record, new figures show."


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## CrusaderFrank (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...




why the fuck do we need pharmacists dispensing medication?  The doctor calls in the order, let Amazon fill it for pennies


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

MeBelle said:


> Your premise is false. I invest in healthcare companies. Of course I want to make some $ to retire on.
> 
> 
> If Medicare is so wonderful, WHY is there Managed Medicare?
> Who do you think Managed Medicare benefits financially? The businesses that run managed Medicare.




On the first sentence.....what you are claiming is that you want MORE of a return on your investment , off the backs of some poor slobs being DENIED care and denying......basically, you are part of a death panel.

On the second sentence.......take it up with GWB who established the non-funded Medicare dis-advantage.....


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## depotoo (Jul 18, 2017)

If you want this-
woman denied cancer life saving treatment - Bing


nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

MeBelle said:


> No. Sweden is going broke.




Sweden is going broke????.............The things that morons spew after watching Fox and Friends.


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## theHawk (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



It's not "single payer", it's "middle class payer".  The bottom-feeders don't pay and wouldn't pay under any Dem system.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

MeBelle said:


> The whole F^cking world is turning away from one payer OR is going broke. Do your research!




What a fucking moron.....The whole world is going broke because of health care???? REALLY???

China, Japan, India, Australia, New Zealand, etc, are ALL going broke because of health care????

Who turns on your "puter in the morning?


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

JBond said:


> Nat and his band of imbeciles doubled the cost of health insurance




Ahhhh, you got me.......Health care insurance was NEVER increasing before the ACA.......
(do these fucking morons actually breed more morons?)


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

Mac1958 said:


> We're headed in this direction, but I'm sure most of the Democrat legislators know that true Single Payer would not be a good thing, just as most Republican legislators know that true free market wouldn't be a good thing.
> 
> I'm still betting I'll get what I want:  An expansion of our already-functioning Medicare / Medicare Advantage / Medicare Supplement system, the best and most efficient blend of public and private funding.
> .


In any case it should be 100% voluntary, an "opt in"...
Any program that's worth the paper that it is printed on does not need everyone's participation. Fact


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## NLT (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> perhaps......and THAT is because of our never-ending wars placing MORE veterans needing care (mental health especially) while not adequately increasing funding to the system......


Funding for the VA has gone up 85% since 2006
Obama says VA budget has risen 85 percent on his watch


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> NLT said:
> 
> 
> > the government cant even get vets health care right, Single payer would be a disaster
> ...


Only fucking morons like yourself think the government is the answer to anything. Lol


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> MeBelle said:
> 
> 
> > Your premise is false. I invest in healthcare companies. Of course I want to make some $ to retire on.
> ...


No one should be paying for anyone else's shit, that's the only way to fix a fucked up system. Fact


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> JBond said:
> 
> 
> > Nat and his band of imbeciles doubled the cost of health insurance
> ...


Millions of people are going broke because of Obamacare… fact


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## BuckToothMoron (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



Which single payer country's plan would you like to model ours after. I will agree to it, but we have to model it exactly. So tell me, which single payer system do you want?


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

theHawk said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...


True, The only reason progressives want that is so they can control those people that are dependent on those systems. Fact


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

theHawk said:


> It's not "single payer", it's "middle class payer". The bottom-feeders don't pay and wouldn't pay under any Dem system.




Ahhh the old, whiteys pay for  the darkies syndrome......


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> MeBelle said:
> 
> 
> > No. Sweden is going broke.
> ...


Sweden is broke you dumbass motherfucker. Lol


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## BuckToothMoron (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > JBond said:
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And that is now the fault of republican legislators just as much as democratic legislatures.


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## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> > It's not "single payer", it's "middle class payer". The bottom-feeders don't pay and wouldn't pay under any Dem system.
> ...


The only people that bring up racism are the racists... lol


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## BuckToothMoron (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> > It's not "single payer", it's "middle class payer". The bottom-feeders don't pay and wouldn't pay under any Dem system.
> ...



Just can't help yourself, can you? Got to play the race card even when race is not the issue.....LIBERALS!


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

NLT said:


> Funding for the VA has gone up 85% since 2006
> Obama says VA budget has risen 85 percent on his watch



Probably true....and even THAT increase cannot keep up with the demand.......PLUS, most doctors know that they can make a hell of a lot more money working under a private health care system that basically works this way: Doctors demand more money.....private health care insurance companies jack up their premiums.....American suckers have to pay more,,,,,and the cycle goes on.


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## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Which single payer country's plan would you like to model ours after. I will agree to it, but we have to model it exactly. So tell me, which single payer system do you want?




NOT my job....Ask Trump to forgo some of his golfing and head a panel to evaluate which foreign system has worked the best.....

But, just for fun......

*The 16 countries with the world's best healthcare systems*


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> NLT said:
> 
> 
> > Funding for the VA has gone up 85% since 2006
> ...


Shit for brains, more government means more debt and inefficiency... fact
Lol


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Which single payer country's plan would you like to model ours after. I will agree to it, but we have to model it exactly. So tell me, which single payer system do you want?
> ...


We need a bull in the china shop like Trump, the destruction of the federal government is a good thing. Fact


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Just can't help yourself, can you? Got to play the race card even when race is not the issue.....LIBERALS!



Perhaps........for right wingers, the term "middle class" is an euphemism for white citizens.......you may not want to agree, but I rest my case.....(as a middle class white guy, myself.)


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Just can't help yourself, can you? Got to play the race card even when race is not the issue.....LIBERALS!
> ...


Progressives are the most racist people on the planet with the exception of Muslims... fact


----------



## eflatminor (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > Plus there's the legality of the idea: There isn't a thing in the enumerated powers of the Constitution that grants the federal government the power to run healthcare. You'll need an amendment. Good luck with that.
> ...



So healthcare is an enumerated power?  Care to point to it?

Noticed you couldn't respond to the fact you're advocating indentured servitude...nor the complete and fucked up mess that is the VA.

Typical.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...




To add to my own post....There are others who would ALSO lose under a single payer system....For example, private Lear jets manufacturers would lose those requests to make new jets for HC insurers' CEOs demanding a new one every couple of years.
Checkout these CEOs' salaries "earned' off denials of coverage to dying fellow-American patients.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

eflatminor said:


> Noticed you couldn't respond to the fact you're advocating indentured servitude...nor the complete and fucked up mess that is the VA.




You're not smart enough to realize it.....but with the above you are tacitly claiming that veterans are part of that indentured servants.
Find a grown up to explain it to you.


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...


I have no right to healthcare, but I do I have a right to earn my healthcare. Take your fucking socialist healthcare elsewhere jack weed. Lol


----------



## eflatminor (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > Noticed you couldn't respond to the fact you're advocating indentured servitude...nor the complete and fucked up mess that is the VA.
> ...



So you got nothing.  Got it.

No vet is being forced to work for a wage or fee to which they did not voluntarily agree.  Can't say the same if you impose single payer on healthcare workers.

Thanks once again for proving just how immoral the left is.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

eflatminor said:


> No vet is being forced to work for a wage or fee to which they did not voluntarily agree. Can't say the same if you impose single payer on healthcare workers.




you can draw your own fucked up conclusion as fits your biases...This forum is certainly not the best place to correct stupidity.
LOL


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

How many right wingers on here.....between the ages of 50-65.... would opt to purchase their health care insurance from Medicare is that were an option????

Be honest.......(for a change)


----------



## JBond (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> JBond said:
> 
> 
> > Nat and his band of imbeciles doubled the cost of health insurance
> ...


The stated goal was to reduce costs. Are you retarded? $2500 savings per family was the sales pitch and you dumb fuckers ate it up. Instead you clowns screwed old people by cutting billions from Medicare.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Which single payer country's plan would you like to model ours after. I will agree to it, but we have to model it exactly. So tell me, which single payer system do you want?
> ...



You brought it up, pick one, or pick a combination of several. Grow a pair of balls and tell us what single payer you want.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...



So Lear Jet employees would lose their jobs too.


----------



## LogikAndReazon (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> MeBelle said:
> 
> 
> > _Who would lose?_ People would lose. Healthcare would become more scarce, *providers would flee*.
> ...



If only we could be more like France ......  lmfao


----------



## Wry Catcher (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'



Please list the cost-deficits single payer will create.  I won't ask YOU what are the cost benefits, for that answer requires an open mind and thought.


----------



## LogikAndReazon (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> NLT said:
> 
> 
> > the government cant even get vets health care right, Single payer would be a disaster
> ...



And man made global warming, floods, drouts, and famines too !!!!!!!!!   Lol


----------



## Wry Catcher (Jul 18, 2017)

LogikAndReazon said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle said:
> ...



If only we can become less like Russia ...  alas, not until the next election.


----------



## TomParks (Jul 18, 2017)

Getting the illegals out is more important than fixing Obamacare....


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

JBond said:


> The stated goal was to reduce costs. Are you retarded? $2500 savings per family was the sales pitch and you dumb fuckers ate it up. Instead you clowns screwed old people by cutting billions from Medicare.




hey moron....this thread is NOT about the pros and cons of the ACA (why do right wing idiots ALWAYS have to place in their inane responses their hatred of Obama???)


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> So Lear Jet employees would lose their jobs too.




Yes, they can be hired to remove the "made in China" labels from Trump's ties and Ivanka's shoe collection....


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Jul 18, 2017)

*McConnell Pulls Plug On Obamacare Repeal Bill*


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> You brought it up, pick one, or pick a combination of several. Grow a pair of balls and tell us what single payer you want.




I did.......So, now, what's your next bitching talking point?
Dental care, perhaps, Bucktooth???


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > So Lear Jet employees would lose their jobs too.
> ...


For me its the "Made in Russia" Label on the Trump administration that is worrisome ...


----------



## Doc1 (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...



So Single Payer would lower the "Obesity Rate"? Well nobody here has ever accused you of being intelligent.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

LogikAndReazon said:


> And man made global warming, floods, *drouts*, and famines too !!!!!!!!! Lol



"Drouts"???? Just a simple example of junior high drop-outs' flaws...Let me guess....you're an avid trump voter......LOL


----------



## sealybobo (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'



McCain said, "The Congress must now return to regular order, hold hearings, receive input from members of both parties, and heed the recommendations of our nation's governors so that we can produce a bill that finally provides Americans with access to quality and affordable health care."

Are we throwing away 'expired' medications too soon? - CNN.com

It turns out the answer is yes.  Why?  The pharmaceutical companies want to make more profit and they make more when we throw the drugs away too soon.

This country is going to start giving expired drugs to poor people.  Better than just letting them die and it turns out the drugs stay good for years longer than they say.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> For me its the "Made in Russia" Label on the Trump administration that is worrisome ...




Well, THAT label may be tough to be removed since it may be tattooed on the orange clown's fat ass.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Doc1 said:


> So Single Payer would lower the "*Obesity Rate"*? Well nobody here has ever accused you of being intelligent.



True.....our current system hasn't really worked for Trump's fat ass...

Weren't morons like you bashing Michelle Obama for her healthier school lunch menu regimens???............LOL


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

sealybobo said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...




Right on target......Let me relay a personal anecdote ......

years ago I briefly worked for a university in one of the 3 states that I jokingly label the 3 Ms......Michigan, Maine and Minnesota.

the governors of those states wanted to REPATRIATE drugs sold by US manufacturers to Canada, to help seniors have cheaper access to needed drugs...which were perfectly good, safe and effective.

The drug companies BITCHED to high heaven, threatening the university that I was working in with their funding for further drug research (bear in mind that drug companies grant money...for tax breaks......to universities for research which winds up being cheaper than the research from the drug companies own research departments...)

Well, the drug companies "won"......screwing those states' seniors out of cheaper drug access.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> MeBelle said:
> 
> 
> > _Who would lose?_ People would lose. Healthcare would become more scarce, *providers would flee*.
> ...



*Yes, "true".....Most doctors and nurses would choose to work as WalMart greeters.......*

How many doctors currently refuse to take new Medicare patients?
They've already fled government run healthcare. Moron.


----------



## NightFox (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...


Er...umm... how do you propose to deal with the exacerbated shortage of medical care that would be attendant with a single payer system (in case you weren't aware we already have shortages of medical care in the U.S. which is why there is an upward pressure on prices)? Single payer effectively caps prices and thus increases demand while reducing supply, basic microeconomics, the demand curve is downward sloping and the supply curve is upward sloping. Every country that is currently using a single payer system has this problem and given that the ones that have similar liberalized political and economic systems have much smaller and less distributed populations we would expect the shortages in the United States to be much more severe and widespread.

So unless this single payer system comes with some attendant technology that drastically reduces the cost of health care delivery to the point where suppliers are willing and able to supply quantity in equilibrium with demand, there will be shortages and thus the only ones that will be able to acquire timely and high quality healthcare will be those that are willing and able to pay prices that are above government mandated caps (see: Great Britain for an example of how this works in the real world).

Then of course there's the problem with how the federal government actually comes up with sufficient revenues to pay for this wonderful new entitlement, at present Medicare and Social Security are both looking to be cash flow negative within 20 years and the geniuses in Washington still haven't figured out how to address the solvency of those 2 entitlements.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *How many doctors currently refuse to take new Medicare patients*?



.....but ONLY because they have the choice of fleecing morons like you instead......Where in that *Hippocratic Oath *does it state for doctors to refuse care and treatment because the feds don't pay more and on time????

Please find that little part of the oath.....LOL


----------



## Flash (Jul 18, 2017)

Stupid greedy Liberals think "single payer" is the way to get somebody else to pay for their health care  The sorry assholes.

Always looking for a way to get somebody else to pay their bills.  

However, being dumbasses, they don't understand that will fuck up health care even more than it is now.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

NightFox said:


> Er...umm... how do you propose to deal with the exacerbated shortage of medical care that would be attendant with a single payer system (in case you weren't aware we already have shortages of medical care in the U.S. which is why there is an upward pressure on prices)?




hate to interfere with  your biases, but here's an idea.......

Would you or would you not agree that doctors make a pretty good living???.............Yes or No? (careful there.)

Then, how's about we made medical schools a bit more affordable?

How's about capping malpractice insurance pay-outs?

How's about (though single payer) having the removal of lengthy filings that forces doctors to spend inordinate time on paper work?

Have I answered your question?

BTW, in urban areas, the ratio of doctors to patients exceeds most other countries.....We do NOT have a scarcity of doctors...what we DO have is the availability of doctors in rural areas.


----------



## Doc1 (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Doc1 said:
> 
> 
> > So Single Payer would lower the "*Obesity Rate"*? Well nobody here has ever accused you of being intelligent.
> ...



Defection. Again.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Flash said:


> However, being dumbasses, they don't understand that will fuck up health care even more than it is now.



Is THAT why other countries that have single payer have their citizens live LONGER,be HEALTHIER and pay LESS???

Just asking your confederate ass.......LOL


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Doc1 said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Doc1 said:
> ...




So, moron, you want me to tell you HOW single payer would ELIMINATE obesity and the heartache of psoriasis???


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 18, 2017)

Single payer has failed everywhere it's been tried and you idiots still want it

Single-payer health care system is a failure

Socialized medicine a global failure

The Pitfalls of Single-Payer Health Care: Canada’s Cautionary Tale

'Single Payer' Healthcare Has Failed The U.S. Indian Health Service -- So Why Does The Left Keep Advocating It?

What's the definition of insanity again?


----------



## Doc1 (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Doc1 said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...



You made a stupid statement kid, I simply called you on it. You can either prove your statement or you can't.


----------



## BluesLegend (Jul 18, 2017)

Single payer, you mean where everyone pays for their own damn healthcare and stops mooching off me?


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Skull Pilot said:


> Single payer has failed everywhere it's been tried and you idiots still want it
> 
> Single-payer health care system is a failure
> 
> ...





......AND FOX and FRIENDS will  be right back after these brief commercials......please stay tuned....."


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > Rustic said:
> ...



I'd ask if you're actually this dumb but I already know the answer. 

Tell me about the preventive care for cancer and car accidents. I'm interested to learn how you figured out the miracle of ever-lasting health.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Doc1 said:


> You made a stupid statement kid, I simply called you on it. You can either prove your statement or you can't.



Fuckhead.....CITE my "stupid statement" and I will respond...if not, your daily enema may be covered under single payer.....LOL


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Jul 18, 2017)

*WATCH: Mitch McConnell whines about people celebrating the defeat of his unpopular Trumpcare bill*


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Single payer has failed everywhere it's been tried and you idiots still want it
> ...


which one of those links was from Fox?


----------



## Thinker101 (Jul 18, 2017)

RDD_1210 said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



So your plan regarding cancer and/or car accidents is to get someone else to pay for it...quite a plan.  Get a fricken job.


----------



## Doc1 (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Doc1 said:
> 
> 
> > You made a stupid statement kid, I simply called you on it. You can either prove your statement or you can't.
> ...



Got it. You can't. Next.


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Jul 18, 2017)

​*‘Republican-on-Republican violence’ breaks out in wake of humiliating Trumpcare collapse*


----------



## Flash (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> > However, being dumbasses, they don't understand that will fuck up health care even more than it is now.
> ...




You Libtards are greedy assholes wanting to get somebody else to pay your bills and that is the reason why you support single payer  medicine and don't give a shit if it screws everything up.  it is all about greed and not taking personal  responsibility.  In order to get your freeby you are willing to put your health care into the hands of some stupid bureaucrat, whose boss is a corrupt politician  elected by special interest groups and that is stupid as hell.  

Most European countries and some other countries became a collection of welfare states after WWII so looking to those yokels as some kind of model is funny as hell.

If you want single payer then move to Cuba Moon Bat.  It is only 90 miles away and Michael Moore says they have the best health care in the world and it is free.


----------



## Flash (Jul 18, 2017)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> ​*‘Republican-on-Republican violence’ breaks out in wake of humiliating Trumpcare collapse*



You are confused Moon Bat.  You don't have a clue what is going on.

See Moon Bat.  Trump and the Republicans are giving you the same government that you got from Obama.  Rejoice Moon Bat.  Obamacare is going to collapse on its own.   

The Democrats own Obamacare so America got what it deserves when the idiots elected Obama and a Democrat Congress.

The way to fix this is to not ever elect Democrats and elect Republicans that are not weak minded as to aid the Democrats.


----------



## Flash (Jul 18, 2017)

Single payer healthcare is Moon Bat greed.  Shame on the welfare queens.  The scum of America.


----------



## EvilCat Breath (Jul 18, 2017)

Single payer would give liberals what they want.  Denial of treatment and the offering of assisted suicide as an alternative.   It does not good to offer an alternative to excruciating pain and debilatating illness if there is treatment available.  First deny the treatment, then offer the tender and humane solution.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 18, 2017)

It's Surprising How Few Countries Have National, Single Payer, Health Care Systems


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

RDD_1210 said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



Shit happens, live with it.
Cancer can only live in an acidic body... thats where preventive care comes in.
Single payer/health insurance is not healthcare you stupid ass motherfucker…


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

Just let Obamacare collapse, which is inevitable. Such a fuck up cannot be fixed.

Millions just like me are not paying the mandate because it's no longer enforced. It's just a matter of a time for it to fall apart for the good of the people.

They should make single payer/Obamacare an "opt in" for those that want it... leave the rest of us out of the fucking cancer.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Jul 18, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle said:
> ...



How many Doctors refuse to take Medicare patients?  In particular how many who treat geriatric patients and pediatrics?  What specialties dominate those who have refused to accept Medicare?

You made a claim, now provide the details.  Lies by omission, are damn lies!


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...


There are far fewer doctors in the field since Obamacare than before... fact


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > You brought it up, pick one, or pick a combination of several. Grow a pair of balls and tell us what single payer you want.
> ...



You did? Sorry I missed it. Please tell me again which country(s) system you want to model, or direct me to the post where you selected one.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...



I'm such a sweetheart, don't you think?....back on post #72......

*The 16 countries with the world's best healthcare systems*


----------



## OKTexas (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...




Yeah, they say that Bernies medicare for all plan would cost 3.2 trillion a year and people would still have to buy supplement plans because medicare only pays 80% of allowable costs. That would be way more expensive the the current 6% of the economy that medical insurance is now.


.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...



*Checkout these CEOs' salaries "earned' off denials of coverage to dying fellow-American patients.*

There won't be any denials of coverage under single payer?
That sounds like things will be more expensive, not less expensive.


----------



## eagle7_31 (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...




The single-payer plan Trump should embrace

this would be better.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

If you'r looking for an example as to why HC costs are uncontrollable and why congress can't do anything about it........ask yourself this simple question:

*Why can't Medicare.....with its HUGE client base ......negotiate lower prescription drug costs with big pharma companies???*

The answer is obvious......Big pharma BRIBES elected officials to NOT allow medicare to do that because........well, because they want to gouge as much money as possible from both the government AND private citizens.....

.....and where does all that money go???....Well, try watching an hour of TV and count how many drug companies' ads you'll see in that time span. (Drug companies may tell us they need the money for R & D....but a good chunk of that money goes for marketing, perpetuating the cycle of profits for future bribing.)


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Doc1 said:
> 
> 
> > So Single Payer would lower the "*Obesity Rate"*? Well nobody here has ever accused you of being intelligent.
> ...



*bashing Michelle Obama for her healthier school lunch menu regimens???...*

Yes, "healthier" food that the kids refused to eat was very helpful.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



*the governors of those states wanted to REPATRIATE drugs sold by US manufacturers to Canada, to help seniors have cheaper access to needed drugs...which were perfectly good, safe and effective.*

Yeah, screw those drug companies!!

Who needs new drugs anyway? DERP!

*Well, the drug companies "won"......*

Good news!


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *bashing Michelle Obama for her healthier school lunch menu regimens???...*
> 
> Yes, "healthier" food that the kids refused to eat was very helpful.



True...left to their own choices, kids would rather follow the Trump diet.....and wind up looking like this clown


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *the governors of those states wanted to REPATRIATE drugs sold by US manufacturers to Canada, to help seniors have cheaper access to needed drugs...which were perfectly good, safe and effective.*
> 
> Yeah, screw those drug companies!!
> 
> ...



Well, some of us don't like getting screwed repeatedly.....YOU, on the other hand, have grown to like it.....

Assume the position, Todd baby and NO squealing......LOL


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > *How many doctors currently refuse to take new Medicare patients*?
> ...



You should become a doctor and only treat Medicare patients.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Single-payer HC plan IS the answer......



Sure, if you want longer wait times resulting in extended suffering and possibly your death



> Who would WIN under such a single payer system???



The rich, actually, dumb ass, because they'll be able to get the best care from where ever they need it while rest of us serfs get the government shit.

You people are absolutely brilliant.  I mean, really....


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You should become a doctor and only treat Medicare patients.



I have a better idea.......Doctors want to be licensed?...
Revoke licenses for REFUSING to see a sick person because they're on Medicare.......US citizens in their elderly years should NOT be treated as second class inconveniences because there's not enough money in Medicare to take Fridays off to go play golf....

There once was a Hippocratic Oath....what happened???


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...








Primary Care Physicians Accepting Medicare: A Snapshot


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Sure, if you want longer wait times resulting in extended suffering and possibly your death
> 
> The rich, actually, dumb ass, because they'll be able to get the best care from where ever they need it while rest of us serfs get the government shit.
> 
> You people are absolutely brilliant. I mean, really..



Well, since you're a "gold supporting member"....I'll skip mopping the floor with you lest I get kicked off.....again....for the 3rd time...

LOL


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > *bashing Michelle Obama for her healthier school lunch menu regimens???...*
> ...







Maybe she should look into those school menus?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > *the governors of those states wanted to REPATRIATE drugs sold by US manufacturers to Canada, to help seniors have cheaper access to needed drugs...which were perfectly good, safe and effective.*
> ...



Some of us prefer the new drugs that American pharma companies constantly develop.
For some reason the countries you prefer leech off our pharma industry instead of using their own.

That's okay, if you have a serious medical issue, I'm sure aspirin will fix you right up.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > You should become a doctor and only treat Medicare patients.
> ...



*Revoke licenses for REFUSING to see a sick person because they're on Medicare*

Excellent idea! One sure way to increase the number of doctors is to force them to work more for less.

*There once was a Hippocratic Oath....what happened???*

The government fucked it up.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > You should become a doctor and only treat Medicare patients.
> ...



Sure, why not?  Since Medicare underpays them they'll just raise their costs on the rest of us further contributing to the rising health care costs in our country.

Another brilliant suggestion from our resident dumb ass.

Oh, by the way, you have no right to a doctor's service.  They aren't your slave.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Sure, why not? Since Medicare underpays them they'll just raise their costs on the rest of us further contributing to the rising health care costs in our country.
> 
> Another brilliant suggestion from our resident dumb ass.



You're the perfect sucker for any extortionist......Bend over.


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Jul 18, 2017)

*‘An epic fail — seven years gone down the drain’: Fox’s Krauthammer shreds GOP and Trump for health care flop*


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Sure, why not? *Since Medicare underpays*




Hey, moron.......WHO exactly established the amount that you...in your ever-lasting "wisdom".....now conclude that doctors are UNDERPAID by Medicare ???

When was the last time you saw a doctor picking up aluminum cans to buy a hamburger???


----------



## Geaux4it (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



No thanks

-Geaux


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jul 18, 2017)

Canadians are coming to the U.S. to get treated because they are waiting too long in Canada

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...dians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...




Single payer healthcare is a failure around the world......japan, Europe, Australia...single payer systems are out of money, out of Doctors and their treatment sucks........

Single payer is healthcare in name only....the only ones who like it are the people too young to need it...

Why do you want all American citizens on the Veterans Administration Healthcare system?..since that is the quality they will have if we ever go to single payer.....


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> *‘An epic fail — seven years gone down the drain’: Fox’s Krauthammer shreds GOP and Trump for health care flop*




Our "beloved" orange lardo NOW states that ......wait for it......."its all democrats fault !!!!.......his 1/3 base of nitwits NEEDS to elect more republicans......."

The moron NEVER, EVER takes responsibility for anything.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...



Swede.....their healthcare system is collapsing......

Crisis situation at Swedish hospitals | eurotopics.net

Expressen is dismayed by the conditions in a country that calls itself a welfare state:

“Not even children are spared in this crisis. At Stockholm's new Karolinska Hospital a third of the beds are empty and one in ten of the operations on children has been cancelled this year. ... The acute problem is the shortage of nurses. It is forcing hospitals to leave beds unused. ... Never before has so much money been allocated to the healthcare system, but it is being misused. The Social Democrats in Stockholm want people to come to the polyclinics for regular health checks. 

*In other words completely healthy people use up resources that can barely cover the needs of the sick. *

The chronic crisis is undermining trust in the politicians. The question is whether Sweden can continue calling itself a social welfare state when children are dying unnecessarily.”

--------

In Aftonbladet's view the situation is above all the result of poor decisions at the political level:

“Sweden has the fewest hospital beds per capita in Europe. So it's no wonder voters always put healthcare at the top of the list when asked what topics they see as most important. ... It's the politicians who have pushed health into the shadows. There was a time when the minister for social affairs was just as important as the finance minister. ... Then along came [the conservative government] and gave the smallest party [the Christian Democrats] the responsibility for healthcare. And this trend has continued under the Social Democrats. ...* Sweden's public healthcare needs a crisis committee and a minister who can overhaul the entire system.”*


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Canadians are coming to the U.S. to get treated because they are waiting too long in Canada
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...dians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care




Sure.....and that's because their PROVINCES pay for the health deliveries in the U.S.........So, a Canadian says to his wife.....honey, want to parlay a week in Florida while I get my prostate checked out???"


----------



## Geaux4it (Jul 18, 2017)

Like he said. Anytime you try and take back an entitlement, you're doomed

-Geaux


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Canadians are coming to the U.S. to get treated because they are waiting too long in Canada




here's what a Canadian wrote......

I love these questions from Americans. I live in Vancouver, on the west coast about 2 hours north of Seattle.


Healthcare - We pay monthly in BC to our medical system. It is called BC medical and, right now, it is $232…for a family of four. They just announced April 1st they are cutting it in half. Hence, any extended healthcare, including dental, is generally less than $200.00 per month and that pays for your prescriptions, therapists, eye-care and a host of other services. So…what are the restrictions on using our healthcare system….none! Ambulance…paid, need prosthetics…paid, need 5 years of aftercare and therapy…paid. By the way, we are just starting construction on our 5th new hospital in 15 years…free to use of course. So what does this get you. Our Vancouver General Cancer research center is one of the top 5 in the world. Our UBC hospital houses the premier genealogical research facility in the world.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Canadians are coming to the U.S. to get treated because they are waiting too long in Canada
> ...



Canada has worst ER/referral wait times in 11 developed countries

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/1...l-wait-times-in-11-developed-countries-report


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> What has always amazed me is that right wingers would rather send an ever increasing amount to pay for their HC premium to a private insurance company that ONLY cares about profits.......
> 
> ........rather than choosing to send a much smaller payment to the federal government (a-la, Medicare) that is not in the "business" of making huge profits over the plan.




It isn't a smaller payment to the government...that payment is hidden by the massive taxes you will pay for everything else in your life, for healthcare that sucks.....for a government bureaucrat to decide which procedures the government can afford to do with shrinking resources because the costs have sky rocketed because no one cares to keep the costs under control.....and the loss of Doctors as it becomes worthless to be a Doctor because you become nothing more than another government clock puncher.............


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Canadians are coming to the U.S. to get treated because they are waiting too long in Canada
> ...




The truth....

Canada....

If Universal Health Care Is The Goal, Don't Copy Canada

Amongst industrialized countries -- members of the OECD -- with universal health care, Canada has the second most expensive health care system as a share of the economy after adjusting for age. This is not necessarily a problem, however, depending on the value received for such spending. As countries become richer, citizens may choose to allocate a larger portion of their income to health care. However, such expenditures are a problem when they are not matched by value.
The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.
--------

Long wait times in Canada have also been observed for basic diagnostic imaging technologies that Americans take for granted, which are crucial for determining the severity of a patient’s condition. In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month.

These wait times are not simply “minor inconveniences.” Patients experience physical pain and suffering, mental anguish, and lost economic productivity while waiting for treatment. One recent estimate (2013) found that the value of time lost due to medical wait times in Canada amounted to approximately $1,200 per patient.

There is also considerable evidence indicating that excessive wait times lead to poorer health outcomes and in some cases, death. Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association recently noted that “[d]elayed care often transforms an acute and potentially reversible illness or injury into a chronic, irreversible condition that involves permanent disability.”

And more on Canada...


The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

When Aucoin appealed to an official ombudsman, the Ontario government claimed that her treatment was unproven and that she had gone to an unaccredited clinic. But the FDA in the U.S. had approved Erbitux, and her clinic was a cancer center affiliated with a prominent Catholic hospital in Buffalo. This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab.

And the truth.......that Canadians don't see until it is too late.....

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited _five days_. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.


----------



## Zander (Jul 18, 2017)

*Single-payer HC plan IS the answer......*


*The Question: How can we destroy healthcare in the US and bankrupt the country? *


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

2aguy said:


> It isn't a smaller payment to the government...that payment is hidden by the massive taxes you will pay for everything else in your life, for healthcare that sucks.....for a government bureaucrat to decide which procedures the government can afford to do with shrinking resources because the costs have sky rocketed because no one cares to keep the costs under control.....and the loss of Doctors as it becomes worthless to be a Doctor because you become nothi




Boy, Hannity sure has you as a disciple......

LET ME KNOW IF YOU NEED MORE EXAMPLES

*U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries*

*US Health-Care System Ranks as One of the Least-Efficient - Bloomberg*

*U.S. health care system ranks lowest in international survey - CBS News*

*10 Countries With the Most Well-Developed Public Health Care ...*

The 36 Best Healthcare Systems In The World - Business Insider


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Zander said:


> *Single-payer HC plan IS the answer......*
> 
> 
> *The Question: How can we destroy healthcare in the US and bankrupt the country? *



Time for a diaper change????


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...



Do you believe that hospitals should turn away those who put out?


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Bruce_T_Laney said:
> 
> 
> > Only those that can not afford healthcare should be put in a government plan and the rest can buy themselves if self employed or get it through their job.
> ...



Isn't that what the ACA is?


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 18, 2017)

eflatminor said:


> Single payer = indentured servitude for those that work in the healthcare industry.
> 
> The left truly are an immoral people.
> 
> ...





eflatminor said:


> Single payer = indentured servitude for those that work in the healthcare industry.



How so?

The only difference is who pays.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

↑
*Single payer =* *indentured servitude for those that work in the healthcare industry.*

Sure, because NOT being able to play golf each and every Friday is tantamount to picking cotton in the hot Alabama sun.


----------



## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> ↑
> *Single payer =* *indentured servitude for those that work in the healthcare industry.*
> 
> Sure, because NOT being able to play golf each and every Friday is tantamount to picking cotton in the hot Alabama sun.



So, a little involuntary servitude is OK, as long as it for those overpaid, under-worked health care workers.  Wow ... it's not very often that you guys reveal your plans so honestly. How refreshing.


----------



## Zander (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't a smaller payment to the government...that payment is hidden by the massive taxes you will pay for everything else in your life, for healthcare that sucks.....for a government bureaucrat to decide which procedures the government can afford to do with shrinking resources because the costs have sky rocketed because no one cares to keep the costs under control.....and the loss of Doctors as it becomes worthless to be a Doctor because you become nothi
> ...



Fake News.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Zander said:


> Fake News.



You really DO need a diaper change......LOL


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

fncceo said:


> So, a little involuntary servitude is OK



take it up with your fellow moron who called single payer ENSLAVEMENT.....DO keep up.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Jul 18, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



Todd, I get it.  You hate government.  What *do* *you believe*?

Thoreau wrote, "that government governs best, which governs least". So I'm thinking you've read Thoreau and others transcendentalists, which I did in high school (Civil Disobedience) and during my freshman year at CAL.

I grew up, and realized pragmatism works best, and with a mind to seek compromise solutions can be found without violence; few zero sum games (and Brinkmanship) produce a satisfactory conclusion, and more rarely without the threat or use of violence.

But I digress, why do you hate government, and what would you replace it with, Brook Farm?


----------



## EvilCat Breath (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, why not? *Since Medicare underpays*
> ...


Doctors who accept medicare patients limit the number they see.  My doctor limits his medicare patients to ten percent of his practice.  Even so, I  primarily see his PA.  If I'm sick,  I don't see him at all.  I'm directed to urgent care and a salaried doctor.  Wait six hours and wham.  Medicare doctor. 

The schedules doctors are paid are abysmal.   I've seen them.  An office call is $15.00.  Chiropractors are paid ONE DOLLAR per visit.

So look for the schedules.  

My friends that can afford it use concierge medical care.  Their doctor comes to their home.  

Unless the government intends a form of slavery they will have failure with single payer.


----------



## EvilCat Breath (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Canadians are coming to the U.S. to get treated because they are waiting too long in Canada
> ...


Why do so many Canadians come here and pay for medical care?


----------



## Borillar (Jul 18, 2017)

Rustic said:


> All socialist entitlement programs should be an "opt in"...
> if they were worth the paper they were printed on they would not require everyone's participation. Lol


OK. Can I opt out of paying for bombing the fuck out of Syria and Afghanistan? Can I opt out of paying for security agencies tracking my purchases and emails? Can I opt out of paying for the failed War on Drugs? Can I opt out of paying for bankster bailouts? Cool beans! I'd opt in for healthcare if I can opt out of some of those things.


----------



## Zander (Jul 18, 2017)

Tipsycatlover said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> ...



Stop bringing up inconvenient facts!

Nat is "special".


----------



## fncceo (Jul 18, 2017)

Tipsycatlover said:


> An office call is $15.00



That's a genuine bargain.  Four patients an hour, means $60 an hour.  To pay the doctor, nurse, reception, insurance, rent, utilities, equipment hire, office expenditures, and taxes.  To make that pittance a person has to spend an average of $225,000 for 12 years of post secondary education. 

And medicate pays $1 a visit.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Tipsycatlover said:


> The schedules doctors are paid are abysmal. I've seen them. An office call is $15.00.





Go take a nap or have another drink.....

This from 5 years ago....

*The most common Medicare physician service was the $70 doctor first office visit, followed closely by the $100 office visit.*

Medicare physician payment data released


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Why do so many Canadians come here and pay for medical care?




they DON'T..........The Canadian HC system pays for their care in the U.S......PLUS, those Canadians get a nice vacation when they visit a doctor in Florida.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Canadians are coming to the U.S. to get treated because they are waiting too long in Canada
> ...




You can hear from a Canadian how well the system worked for her mother.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 18, 2017)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Why do so many Canadians c*ome here and pay for medical care?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> LEARN something ......Canadians don't fully pay for their US medical care.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rustic (Jul 18, 2017)

Borillar said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > All socialist entitlement programs should be an "opt in"...
> ...


That's why the federal government is the enemy of the country, the collective never works for the individual. Fact


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jul 18, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > Why do so many Canadians come here and pay for medical care?
> ...



Because they don't have enough resources in their own country, dumb ass



> Canadians could expect to wait 9.8 weeks for medically necessary treatment after seeing a specialist in 2014, the researchers found, three weeks more than the time physicians considered to be clinically "reasonable."
> 
> The public health care system sends some Canadians abroad for treatment partly because of a lack of available local resources, the report says.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.us...singly-come-to-us-for-health-care?context=amp


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...



No, I read that post. Are you suggestion that all those 16 countries have the same system? Hmm, perhaps you didn't read the link in your own post, or perhaps you believe that all single payer systems are the same. Why don't you read/research the systems of each of these and tell me the one(S) you want to emulate here? Or maybe that is just more effort than you are prepared to expend for such a insignificant topic. Some liberals on this board just like to say "single payer" and think that is all we need to do. The reality is quite different unfortunately. Yea, all those countries have different systems and they continue to evolve. Do you prefer Germany's system over Japan's, or maybe you are partial to the system in France or Sweden or Norway. Seriously, which one do you like for the USA?


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Why don't you read/research the systems of each of these and tell me the one(S) you want to emulate here?




Not my job and certainly not YOURS......Our "illustrious" congress and the moron in the WH had almost a decade. researchers and funds to figure out how American "exceptionalism" could improve on the best of systems that other countries have developed....

But, the bottom line in what a call "single payer" is that health care should NOT be treated as yet another capitalistic enterprise where "profits" rule over morality.


----------



## eflatminor (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > No vet is being forced to work for a wage or fee to which they did not voluntarily agree. Can't say the same if you impose single payer on healthcare workers.
> ...



Yet another logical fallacy, ignoring the point completely in the process.

Color me shocked.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you read/research the systems of each of these and tell me the one(S) you want to emulate here?
> ...



*health care should NOT be treated as yet another capitalistic enterprise where "profits" rule over morality.*

Exactly! We need more enterprises like the VA and the DMV where profits and customer service and satisfaction never come into play.


----------



## eflatminor (Jul 19, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > Single payer = indentured servitude for those that work in the healthcare industry.
> ...



If you're a healthcare worker, you should be free to work for a wage or a fee you believe is adequate for the labor you're provide, just like any industry.

But with single payer, you all of a sudden have the right to demand that my sister, who is a nurse, care for you.

Using government-backed compulsion to force someone to labor on another's behalf....perhaps you're right, that's not indentured servitude, that's slavery.

And WHO pays is also a moral issue.  Forcing me to fund your scheme is simple theft.  You should have no more a right to take my money because you're sick anymore than I should be able to rob the grocery store because I'm hungry.


----------



## healthmyths (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...


There NEVER were 46 million uninsured Americans!


----------



## basquebromance (Jul 19, 2017)

When healthcare becomes a right.... all doctors will be slaves.


----------



## Anathema (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Who would LOSE under such a single payer system???
> Insurance companies' CEOs and their board members.....



I lose under that system. In fact I DIE under thst system.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Anathema said:


> I lose under that system. In fact I DIE under thst system.




Ahhh, besides being an idiotic poster on here, you're a part time CEO for a HC insurance company???


----------



## Anathema (Jul 19, 2017)

basquebromance said:


> When healthcare becomes a right.... all doctors will be slaves.



No. A Good deal of them will quit their practices completely.


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jul 19, 2017)

Thinker101 said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > Rustic said:
> ...



You. I only want you to pay for it. You owe me.


----------



## Anathema (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Ahhh, besides being an idiotic poster on here, you're a part time CEO for a HC insurance company???



No. Just someone with enough morality not to take handouts from the Government. For me "single payer means being cut off from all medical services.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Anathema said:


> No. A Good deal of them will quit their practices completely.




.....and go to work at WalMart???


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Anathema said:


> For me "single payer means being cut off from all medical services.




Well, that's because your dumber than a box of used matches, then......

Virtually ALL other industrialized countries have some version of a single payer system in HC....and THEIR citizens pay less and live longer...Strange the way that works, isn't it?


----------



## eflatminor (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Well, that's because your dumber than a box of used matches, then......



You're, not your

You were saying something about dumb???


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you read/research the systems of each of these and tell me the one(S) you want to emulate here?
> ...



Ok, what if I say I'm good with treating healthcare different from other capitalistic enterprises where profit does not rule over morality? Here is the bottom line, you say it isn't your job to figure out, which is a cop out from a weak mind. Like a bratty child, you stomp your feet and say gimme single payer like Luxembourg, Japan, or Singapore, but you can't take the next step to examine those systems to understand why they work well, and therefore don't understand why they won't work here if employed by our federal government like you want. Run along little child.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

eflatminor said:


> You're, not your
> 
> You were saying something about dumb???




yes, my mistake.......I guess then that your argument "wins"...and my argument based on a spelling error "loses".......Correct?


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> . Run along little child.




take care of  that bucktooth.......LOL


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...


and which one of those is actually a national single payer system?

You don't know do you?

What Can The US Learn From The French Health Care System?


France does not have a true single-payer system.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Skull Pilot said:


> and which one of those is actually a national single payer system?
> 
> You don't know do you?




Did you see the U.S. on that list???.............NO

Does it make a difference if you choose to call a BETTER system "national single payer"..??? ................NO

Do those other 16 countries pay LESS and live LONGER?...Yes or No?

So what the fuck do you want?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > and which one of those is actually a national single payer system?
> ...


Do you see that France does not have single payer insurance?

Do you know why it doesn't have single payer insurance?

Because it has failed everywhere it has been tried but you still want it.


----------



## jc456 (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...


open market.


----------



## Anathema (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> .....and go to work at WalMart???



Retire (if possible). Move into resesrch. Teach. All potential options. I know at least 2 of my MDs will leave practice if this goes through.


----------



## Anathema (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Well, that's because your dumber than a box of used matches, then......
> 
> Virtually ALL other industrialized countries have some version of a single payer system in HC....and THEIR citizens pay less and live longer...Strange the way that works, isn't it?



No. It's because I place a higher value on the health of my Soul than on that of my body.

I literally could not care less whst anyone outside this country has, does, wants, likes, etc... I'm an American citizen, not a world citizen. My morals and my beliefs on the laws of this nation prevent me from taking any money from the Government. Always have and always will.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Skull Pilot said:


> Do you see that France does not have single payer insurance?
> 
> Do you know why it doesn't have single payer insurance?
> 
> Because it has failed everywhere it has been tried but you still want it.




MORON....."single payer" is a catch all phrase implying that only ONE entity is entrusted to provide health care....and that entity is a government one....

Find a grown up to explain it to you......


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...



Hey Todd, quite being a dick. Nat has a dream that a country which can't run a decent healthcare system for a group of 9 million people in the VA will somehow come up with a great one for 330 million people. Hey Nat, why don't we hire Switzerland to run our VA system? They are kicking ass with their system for 9 million people, ranked 3rd best in the world, so we should just pay them to run our VA.

Nat- check this shit out about the Swiss system- let me know if this will make you happy. This is just one passage, but do some heavy lifting and read the entire article.

Why Switzerland Has the World's Best Health Care System
Features of the Swiss health sysetm

Swiss citizens buy insurance for themselves; there are no employer-sponsored or government-run insurance programs. Hence, insurance prices are transparent to the beneficiary. The government defines the minimum benefit package that qualifies for the mandate. Critically, all packages require beneficiaries to pick up a portion of the costs of their care (deductibles and coinsurance) in order to incentivize their frugality.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > and which one of those is actually a national single payer system?
> ...



Nat- your mental laziness and lack of depth is on full display. You post a link to a list of the best healthcare systems in the world, cite the fact that US is not on the list, and then scream you want free healthcare for everybody, or whatever the hell you want. Take the next step dude! Examine the other systems and understand why they seemingly work so well. Anybody can google search, not everybody can actually read and understand what google finds. That's the hard part, and you either can't or won't do it.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Nat- check this shit out about the Swiss system- let me know if this will make you happy. This is just one passage, but do some heavy lifting and read the entire article.
> 
> Why Switzerland Has the World's Best Health Care System
> Features of the Swiss health sysetm




Yes...that makes me "happy" and DO ask the  SWISS to run our VA.....but, your only problem then is to ADMIT that we are not the "exceptional" God-loves us best, country on the planet........and that will not go over well within your ilk.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Nat- your mental laziness and lack of depth is on full display. You post a link to a list of the best healthcare systems in the world, cite the fact that US is not on the list, and then scream you want free healthcare for everybody, or whatever the hell you want. Take the next step dude! Examine the other systems and understand why they seemingly work so well. Anybody can google search, not everybody can actually read and understand what google finds. That's the hard part, and you either can't or won't do it.




yes, bucktooth........the MAIN problem with our fucked up and expensive health care system........is MY laziness in not coming up with what this country should do.....

Is that REALLY your fucking argument???.................................LOL


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Do you see that France does not have single payer insurance?
> ...


MORON single payer means there is ONE and only ONE payer.

Words mean things in case you didn't know that yet


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Nat- check this shit out about the Swiss system- let me know if this will make you happy. This is just one passage, but do some heavy lifting and read the entire article.
> ...



Ah, so now you want to divert from YOUR thread topic and discuss why American exceptionalism is a fallacy. Sorry, with respect to the OP I'll stick to the thread topic. 

So you want the Swiss to run our VA system. You're a cruel heartless bastard. Many of those in the VA can't afford to buy their own insurance like those in Switzerland do. Now what?


----------



## PredFan (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...



I love when you left wing idiots post stupid shit like this. You actually think, and want intelligent people to believe, that the only reason for these numbers is single payer.

In a fair and just world, people as stupid as you are would not be allowed to talk.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Nat- your mental laziness and lack of depth is on full display. You post a link to a list of the best healthcare systems in the world, cite the fact that US is not on the list, and then scream you want free healthcare for everybody, or whatever the hell you want. Take the next step dude! Examine the other systems and understand why they seemingly work so well. Anybody can google search, not everybody can actually read and understand what google finds. That's the hard part, and you either can't or won't do it.
> ...



My argument is you can't cite a single payer system that will work here in the US. Your list of the 16 greatest healthcare systems has 16 different systems, some are single payer types, some are not. You have not studied or researched the topic of your own thread, yet you pretend to want to have a substantive discussion, but you don't know enough about your topic to engage in one. That is my argument! You're lazy and uninformed, some would classify you as a typical bleeding heart liberal, all emotion, no brain.


----------



## Thinker101 (Jul 19, 2017)

RDD_1210 said:


> Thinker101 said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



Sure hope you're not holding your breath.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Skull Pilot said:


> MORON single payer means there is ONE and only ONE payer.




Actually, you're just stupid........the above is NOT the definition of single payer.; it does NOT mean ONE payer...........Here you fuck head, apologize......LOL

*Single-payer* health healthcare collects all medical fees and then pays for all services, *by a single government (or government-related) source. *.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Ah, so now you want to divert from YOUR thread topic and discuss why American exceptionalism is a fallacy. Sorry, with respect to the OP I'll stick to the thread topic.
> 
> So you want the Swiss to run our VA system. You're a cruel heartless bastard. Many of those in the VA can't afford to buy their own insurance like those in Switzerland do. Now what?




You're getting MORE more stupid with each post.......you are babbling on like a fucking moron........

It was YOU who suggested that the Swiss run our VA......and since I felt sorry for your babbling I sarcastically agreed.......Look I don't like wrestling with pigs all that much, find some other way to find your fellow morons think that you're making sense.

All I want is a BETTER HC delivery insurance system,...We do NOT have it.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, so now you want to divert from YOUR thread topic and discuss why American exceptionalism is a fallacy. Sorry, with respect to the OP I'll stick to the thread topic.
> ...



Great, let's get back to discussing a better system. In your opinion a better system is single payer, or at least that is what you suggested in your thread topic. Now let's dig into discussing single payer. Since you argue for single payer, will you give me a brief outline of your vision of a US single payer system? Is it as simple as just adding a tax, collecting the money, paying for the healthcare of all citizens with that money? Do we also pay for non-citizens out of that pool? Just let me know your vision.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Since you argue for single payer, will you give me a brief outline of your vision of a US single payer system?




NO !!!! NOT my job to entertain your fucked up egging on....
Go hump a lamppost....LOL


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Since you argue for single payer, will you give me a brief outline of your vision of a US single payer system?
> ...



So what is the purpose of your post, if not to engage in a discussion about the type of single payer healthcare system you want? I am at a loss in trying to understand why you even started this thread if you don't want to discuss the topic of single payer.


----------



## Redfish (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...




the VA is single payer.   Need I say more?


----------



## Redfish (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...




gnat was told to post that single payer is the only answer.   He obviously doesn't even know how it would work or who the single payer would be.   He is like most liberals-------stupid and arrogant, not to mention ignorant.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

Redfish said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...



Hey Redfish- I can tell you, Nat has no intention of having a discussion about single payer. I have been trying to pry out of him what his idea of single payer system is, and I've come to the conclusion that he has no idea. My summary- he is a liberal who generally doesn't like his country, hates Trump(understandable), has heard his liberal buddies talk about single payer, and decided to start a thread to bash Trump and republicans under the guise of discussing healthcare policy.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

Redfish said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...




Yep, that seems to be the prevailing opinion of Nat and his attempt at starting a thread.


----------



## Redfish (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...



gnat = a small irritating insect of no value and with no purpose in life other than to irritate.


----------



## Redfish (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, so now you want to divert from YOUR thread topic and discuss why American exceptionalism is a fallacy. Sorry, with respect to the OP I'll stick to the thread topic.
> ...




bullshit.  We have the best medical system in the entire world.


----------



## NightFox (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> NightFox said:
> 
> 
> > Er...umm... how do you propose to deal with the exacerbated shortage of medical care that would be attendant with a single payer system (in case you weren't aware we already have shortages of medical care in the U.S. which is why there is an upward pressure on prices)?
> ...


You believe the laws of supply and demand are "biases" ?



> Would you or would you not agree that doctors make a pretty good living???.............Yes or No? (careful there.)


"pretty good" is relative and doctors wages are subject to the laws of supply and demand just like anything else, you cap doctors wages and you will get less supply of doctors.



> Then, how's about we made medical schools a bit more affordable?


How do you propose to go about doing that?



> How's about capping malpractice insurance pay-outs?


That's been happening on the state level and from everything I've read it's been effective at modest cost reduction in most states that have implemented it but it's a STATE issue, the federal government has no constitutional authority to dictate civil judgement caps to state courts.



> How's about (though single payer) having the removal of lengthy filings that forces doctors to spend inordinate time on paper work?


I'm all for the reduction of paperwork and administrative overhead imposed on health care providers but when has introducing more government ever accomplished that? Under the current system the government adds more administrative overhead to health care than anybody else, single payer is likely to make that burden worse not better.



> Have I answered your question?


Not even close; you have not addressed how to deal with the shortages brought on by single payer imposed binding price ceilings and you didn't even attempt to address how a single payer system would be financed.



> BTW, in urban areas, the ratio of doctors to patients exceeds most other countries.....We do NOT have a scarcity of doctors...what we DO have is the availability of doctors in rural areas.


Look again, the ratio of doctors to patients is irrelevant, the relevant statistic is the availability of healthcare at an acceptable quality level and in a timely fashion, healthcare isn't a monolithic market so the acuteness of shortages varies by specialty, once you cap prices shortages will get worse depending on where price ceilings are imposed relative to the market equilibrium price, the greater the difference the greater the shortage.

Thanks for trying but it would appear you need to do some more research and think things through with respect to the benefits AND *negative consequences* of single payer.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> *I am at a loss*




STOP right there....lol


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Yep, that seems to be the prevailing opinion of Nat and his attempt at starting a thread.




After over 230 posts on this thread and reading your moronic answers......Yes, I've had enough of your bullshit.......

Stick with the HC system we have now.....I mean, what could go wrong???...LOL


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Redfish said:


> the VA is single payer. Need I say more?



Of course you needn't say more bullshit......

First of all, the VA health system is NOT a single payer system...

Second, before you judge the VA.....READ and LEARN..... 

3 Things To Know Before You Judge VA Health System


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 19, 2017)

eflatminor said:


> Hutch Starskey said:
> 
> 
> > eflatminor said:
> ...



How do you reach that conclusion?
Do you know what single payer even means?


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 19, 2017)

Anathema said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Ahhh, besides being an idiotic poster on here, you're a part time CEO for a HC insurance company???
> ...



In what way is single payer a "hand out"?


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> In what way is single payer a "hand out"?




In its SIMPLEST of forms, what single payer can do is this........

Whereas I now send a check to some private insurer who will ARBITRARILY and UNILATERALLY raise my premium and/or deductible...

At the very least, if I send a check to a federal agency for the same care....and that agency also opts to raise my premium.....I HAVE my humble vote to request WHY from my senators and house reps..


----------



## g5000 (Jul 19, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'


The quickest way to get to a $20 trillion debt is to give away $1.4 trillion in tax expenditures to special interests every year.


Oh, wait.

We already do that, and we are already closing in on a $20 trillion debt.

Huh!


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, that seems to be the prevailing opinion of Nat and his attempt at starting a thread.
> ...



It looks like we are sticking with what we have, that being BOcare. You are long on bitching and complaining, and very short on solutions. You started a thread about single payer, and then refused to actually discuss the topic. You apparently entertained yourself however, considering how many of your post ended with "lol".


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > MORON single payer means there is ONE and only ONE payer.
> ...


And France is NOT single payer no matter how many times you say it is


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Skull Pilot said:


> *And France is NOT single payer no matter how many times you say it* is



LOL......Where the hell did I say France has a single payer, *EmptySkul*l???
That country has a Universal or national health care insurance system.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Bear in mind that when we're dealing with a charlatan president who openly states,"......who knew that HC could be so complicated...."....we are actually dealing with a full-fledged MORON  ......


----------



## Anathema (Jul 19, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> In what way is single payer a "hand out"?



Do you have to do anything other thsn show up with valid citizenship to get it?... Nope.

That makes it either a Right or a handout. Since we all know the US Constitution never indicates and Right to healthcare and a basic history lesson  shows thst healthcare was never considered a Right until very recently... It must be a handout.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

Anathema said:


> Do you have to do anything other thsn show up with valid citizenship to get it?... Nope.




Nitwit.....Single payer is NOT free.....

Under the single-payer legislation in Congress (H.R. 676):


*Everyone would receive comprehensive healthcare coverage* under single-payer;
Care would be *based on need, not on ability to pay*;
Employers would no longer be responsible for health care costs and coverage decisions;
Single-payer would *reduce costs by 24%*, saving $829 billion in the first year by cutting administrative waste and allowing negotiation of prescription drugs (Friedman, 2013); and
*Single-payer would create savings for 95% of the population*. Only the top 5% would pay slightly more. (Friedman, 2013)
What Is Single Payer Healthcare?


----------



## Anathema (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Nitwit.....Single payer is NOT free.....
> 
> Under the single-payer legislation in Congress (H.R. 676):
> 
> ...



I dont see anything in your points about my deductible, my premium, etc... There is no direct cost to the user. It's paid through taxes. Or am I missing something?


----------



## easyt65 (Jul 19, 2017)

Remember when the GOP pointed out that while campaigning Barry declared to the crowd how he preferred Single Payer, and snowflakes screamed, "he did not say that'?!

Yeah....


After it was rammed into law Reid openly declared the ACA was always supposed to be a stepping-stone to Single Payer.

And now the same snowflakes who were screaming, 'Barry never said that' are now parroting his June 2008 praise of Single Payer.

So were you snowflakes stupid, duped as well, or did you know all along Barry's plan was to force the nation down the road to Single payer?


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 19, 2017)

easyt65 said:


> So were you snowflakes stupid, duped as well, or did you know all along Barry's plan was to force the nation down the road to Single payer?
> .....Reid openly declared the ACA was always supposed to be a stepping-stone to Single Payer.



Didn't you also just state in your stuttering that ACA was s step to betaken toward a single payer system???.....So what the fuck are you bitching about...YES, we want a single payer system,,,,,and YES, the ACA was a first step.....


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > *And France is NOT single payer no matter how many times you say it* is
> ...



Then why is your thread about single payer?

Maybe you don't know what the fuck you are talking about yet again.


----------



## basquebromance (Jul 19, 2017)

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! HEALTH IS A HUMAN RIGHT!


----------



## Skull Pilot (Jul 19, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have to do anything other thsn show up with valid citizenship to get it?... Nope.
> ...


Didn't work that way in Canada or Vermont 

The list is too long so here is the Google page have fun

failure of single payer health care - Google Search


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 19, 2017)

Anathema said:


> Hutch Starskey said:
> 
> 
> > In what way is single payer a "hand out"?
> ...



You have to pay for it, fool. Who ever said it was free?


----------



## Redfish (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > the VA is single payer. Need I say more?
> ...




of course it is.   the payer is the US government.  No one else pays the VA.  Do you understand what the words "single payer" mean, gnat?


----------



## Redfish (Jul 20, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Hutch Starskey said:
> ...




its what you libs assume--------------that it will be free for you because you don't work and pay no taxes.   You assholes assume that only the evil rich will have to pay.   But you assume that because you are too stupid to understand how it really works in places like Sweden.   Everyone pays--------------there is no minimum income for paying taxes, and the taxes are around 65% of your gross income.   Socialism does not work, never has, never will.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 20, 2017)

Redfish said:


> of course it is. the payer is the US government. No one else pays the VA. Do you understand what the words "single payer" mean, gnat?




Mr. Tuna, you are an idiot......

Veterans HAVE already paid for the health care through sacrificing their limbs and often, their minds through their military service.

So, yes, the VA health care is strictly the responsibility of our government to spend the tax dollars to take care of them.


----------



## Rustic (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > of course it is. the payer is the US government. No one else pays the VA. Do you understand what the words "single payer" mean, gnat?
> ...


And the VA treats our veterans like shit, the same way insurance companies treat their customers like shit… And worst of all the fucking federal government treats the country like shit… LOL


----------



## Anathema (Jul 20, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> You have to pay for it, fool. Who ever said it was free?



Single payer suggests to me that the Government is paying all the bills.

If thsts incorrect, then who are the premiums being paid to, and by whom?


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 20, 2017)

Anathema said:


> Single payer suggests to me that the Government is paying all the bills.




One last time.......

*Single*-*payer national health insurance*, also known as “Medicare for all,” is a system in which a *single* public or quasi-public agency collects payments........but the delivery of care remains largely in private hands.


----------



## Rustic (Jul 20, 2017)

Anathema said:


> Hutch Starskey said:
> 
> 
> > You have to pay for it, fool. Who ever said it was free?
> ...


Tells me the federal government just takes the money, and trusting the federal government to pay anyones bills?

The Federal governments sole purpose is to fuck over the country… Fact


----------



## Rustic (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Single payer suggests to me that the Government is paying all the bills.
> ...


Na, single-payer is there to control people… fact


----------



## Anathema (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> One last time.......
> 
> *Single*-*payer national health insurance*, also known as “Medicare for all,” is a system in which a *single* public or quasi-public agency collects payments........but the delivery of care remains largely in private hands.



Ok. Sorry, but I'm still not interested. Medical care is NOT a responsibility of the Federal Government (see Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution and Amendment X to the same document) and never shoild be.


----------



## Redfish (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > of course it is. the payer is the US government. No one else pays the VA. Do you understand what the words "single payer" mean, gnat?
> ...




sure, our vets have "paid" with their service.  But in the context of single payer (as all intelligent humans understand the meaning of those words) it means that the only (single) payer of money for vets medical care is the government. 

your attempt at convoluted logic just confirms my nickname for you------------gnat.


----------



## Redfish (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Single payer suggests to me that the Government is paying all the bills.
> ...




the delivery is based on payments,   doctors, hospitals, and drug companies do not work for free.   They will deliver their services to who and when the government pays them to do so. 

So your medical care will be determined by some GS7 clerk with an IQ of 25 in a cubicle in DC.   Does that make you sleep well?


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 20, 2017)

I heard healthcare talk on the radio this morning......in many places the least expensive obamacare plan is 1,000 dollars a month and with  about  a 6-7,000 dollar deductible...which is essentially paying for healthcare you can't use and you can't afford....

Obamacare is going to fail, and obamacare is going to leave 320 million Americans without healthcare......


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 20, 2017)

2aguy said:


> Obamacare is going to fail, and obamacare is going to leave 320 million Americans without healthcare......



Sure.....Let the ACA fail.......and with your fucked up elected ilk with their fingers up their asses.....and in COMPLETE control of government....they'll be "forgiven"....
Lets see what happens when...as you say......320 million Americans are without insurance.....
That should be interesting, don't you think, moron????....LOL


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 20, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Hutch Starskey said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...




No has said it would or should be free except you and your retarded brethren.


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 20, 2017)

Anathema said:


> Hutch Starskey said:
> 
> 
> > You have to pay for it, fool. Who ever said it was free?
> ...



Maybe you should learn what it is rather than share what you think it is.


----------



## Soggy in NOLA (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare is going to fail, and obamacare is going to leave 320 million Americans without healthcare......
> ...



320,000,000???


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 20, 2017)

2aguy said:


> I heard healthcare talk on the radio this morning......in many places the least expensive obamacare plan is 1,000 dollars a month and with  about  a 6-7,000 dollar deductible...which is essentially paying for healthcare you can't use and you can't afford....
> 
> Obamacare is going to fail, and obamacare is going to leave 320 million Americans without healthcare......



Where are those many places and what drives the cost of those premiums?


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 20, 2017)

Soggy in NOLA said:


> 320,000,000???




take it up with your fellow nitwit 2guy who came up with that stupidity LOL


----------



## Markle (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'
> ...



Comparing a country with a smaller population than New York City with a population of 330 MILLION is just foolish.

Yes, the obesity rate is hugely different.  Has nothing whatsoever to do with healthcare and everything to do with diet.  Our diet is terrible and widely diverse.  We also get a little exercise.  Swedes eat a great deal of seafood.  Much of their transportation is on cross country skis and snowshoes.  

As for Life Expectancy, the life expectancy in Minnesota is 81.1 and 81.2 for whites only.  As you know, much of the population of Minnesota is of Scandinavian descent.  Until the recent refugee problem, Sweden is virtually 100 white.  Life expectancy for Sweden:  Life expectancy at birth: 81.18 years,  Wow, go figure.

Demographics of Sweden - Wikipedia

Talk:Demographics of Sweden - Wikipedia

Demographics of Minnesota - Wikipedia

Nice try.

Now their taxes:

*Sweden[edit]*
See also: Taxation in Sweden
In 2010, the Swedish social security contribution paid by the employer is 31.42 percent, calculated on top of the employee's salary. The percentage is lower for young and old employees.[11] The other type of Swedish payroll tax is the income tax withheld (PAYE), which consists of municipal, county, and, for higher income brackets, state tax. In most municipalities, the income tax comes to approximately 30 percent, with the two higher income brackets paying a total of 50 or 55 percent respectively. The combination of the two types is a total tax effect of 47 to 66 percent.
*Example of salary taxation through PAYE[edit]*
Assumptions: income tax (direct, 32%), employer social fee (indirect, 31.42%)

For a pay of *100*, the employee first pays *32* in income tax (direct, 32%); on top of that, the employer pays an additional *31.42* in employer's social fees (indirect, 31.42%).

Thus, based on a pay check of *100*, 63.42/131.42 (i.e., 48.3%) is paid as taxes, although the employer's contribution is a fee for the employee's adherence to the Swedish social security scheme. The effective rate may be lowered by, for example, earned income tax credits and private retirement savings contributions.

In addition, the employee pays 7 percent in pension contributions to the public system, with a cap at an annual income of 420,447 kr. Thus, the maximum employee contribution is 29,400 kr. The employee's contributions are fully tax-deductible.

*Value added tax[edit]*
The value added tax (_mervärdesskatt_ or _moms_) rate in Sweden is 25%, with exceptions for food and services like hotel room rental fees (12%), and for sales of publications, admission tickets to cultural events and travel within Sweden (6%).[3]

[$1.00 = $0.12 Krona (kr)]
*Income tax[edit]*
Sweden has a progressive income tax, the rates for 2017 are as follows:

0% from 0 kr to 18,800 kr
Circa 31% (ca. 7% county and 24% municipality tax): from 18,800 kr to 438,900 kr
31% + 20%: from 438,901 kr to 638,500 kr
31% + 25%: above 638,500 kr[4]
*Capital Gains[edit]*
Sweden has a flat tax rate of 30% for capital gains.[5]

*Corporation tax[edit]*
Sweden's corporation tax rate is 22%.[6]


----------



## Markle (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> All I want is a BETTER HC delivery insurance system,...We do NOT have it.



No, you don't, you want a system where other people pay for your health care and you get to choose what health care you receive.


----------



## Markle (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Under the single-payer legislation in Congress (H.R. 676):
> 
> *Everyone would receive comprehensive healthcare coverage* under single-payer;
> Care would be *based on need, not on ability to pay*;
> ...



If you believe this you are living on a wildly different planet.  

The things in your dream world have certainly not happened anywhere else in the world.  Just check the expenses in the Sweden example above.  

If you consider those taxes, PLUS a 25% Value Added Tax creating savings for ANYONE, you're just beyond our solar system.


----------



## Markle (Jul 20, 2017)

basquebromance said:


> FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! HEALTH IS A HUMAN RIGHT!



Food and shelter are NOT human rights?


----------



## Anathema (Jul 20, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> Maybe you should learn what it is rather than share what you think it is.



You miss my point... so far as I'm concerned the Government has no legitimate place in the health care industry. Therefore I will not participate in any medical care system thst the Government is a party to. Regardless of how good or bad the system may be.


----------



## nat4900 (Jul 20, 2017)

Anathema said:


> Therefore I will not participate in any medical care system thst the Government is a party to.




So, for you.......Fuck Medicare, correct???.........LOL.


----------



## Anathema (Jul 20, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> So, for you.......Fuck Medicare, correct???.........LOL.



Yes. Social Security too. Both agencies have already been informed that I will be declining their services when I reach that age.


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 20, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Hutch Starskey said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...





Redfish said:


> its what you libs assume



No, it's what *you* assume, retard.


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 20, 2017)

Anathema said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > So, for you.......Fuck Medicare, correct???.........LOL.
> ...


Tips hat...
A quick and quiet death for ya, then.


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 20, 2017)

Redfish said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



IOW it hurts my head so shut up.


----------



## Hutch Starskey (Jul 20, 2017)

Anathema said:


> Hutch Starskey said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you should learn what it is rather than share what you think it is.
> ...


IOW you'd die for your ignorant ideas?


----------



## Anathema (Jul 21, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> Tips hat...
> A quick and quiet death for ya, then.



Quick, yes. Not so sure 230 grains of .45 ACP+P JHP going through my head would be considered "quiet".


----------



## Anathema (Jul 21, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> IOW you'd die for your ignorant ideas?



I will happily kill and die for the Morals and Ideals which I believe in. That's a far better life and death thsn having no proper morals or ideals to live by.


----------



## Redfish (Jul 21, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...




Single payer = the government pays your doctor, hospital, pharmacy, wheel chair maker, catheter maker, etc.   The government has only one source or income from which to make these payments---------US, the taxpayers. 

I understand why you who pay no taxes think free stuff is wonderful.  But if you ever accomplish anything in life and actually have an income, you will think differently when the government takes half of what you earn before you even see it.


----------



## Redfish (Jul 21, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Hutch Starskey said:
> ...



then tell us what single payer means to you.   anxiously awaiting.


----------



## eflatminor (Jul 23, 2017)

Hutch Starskey said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > Hutch Starskey said:
> ...



Of course I know what it means.  If you disagree, it's your burden to counter my points.


----------



## eflatminor (Jul 23, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> > You're, not your
> ...



No, my argument wins AND you got called out.

Deal.


----------



## dblack (Jul 23, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'


 
More importantly, is "How to bring 1/4 of our economy under Congressional control?"


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Aug 1, 2017)

I find your healthcare systems beyond surreal. You will get a proper system one day. One that looks after everybody.


----------



## Markle (Aug 1, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Single-payer would *reduce costs by 24%*, saving $829 billion in the first year by cutting administrative waste and allowing negotiation of prescription drugs (Friedman, 2013); and
> 
> *Single-payer would create savings for 95% of the population*. Only the top 5% would pay slightly more.



Total lie.

EVEN the far left Progressive state of California has looked seriously into Single Payer for their state and came to the conclusion it would DOUBLE their yearly spending.  Totally out of any sort of affordable plan imaginable.

Petulant former President Barack Hussein Obama LIED to us repeatedly about the cost of Obamacare, telling us that each household would save $2,500 a year in health insurance, keep our doctor and our insurance plan if we liked the one we had.

You lied to us once and even your illustrious leader of the Democrats, Nancy Pelosi told us to TRUST THEM, we had to pass the plan in order to find out what was in it.  Now we know and it is and it is like a bad illness we can't get rid of.


----------



## Markle (Aug 1, 2017)

basquebromance said:


> FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! HEALTH IS A HUMAN RIGHT!



But not a Constitutional right.


----------



## Markle (Aug 1, 2017)

Redfish said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Single-payer health care: A system of health care characterized by universal and comprehensive coverage. Single-payer health care is similar to the health services provided by Medicare in the US. The government pays for care that is delivered in the private (mostly not-for-profit) sector. Doctors are in private practice and are paid on a fee-for-service basis from government funds. The government does not own or manage their medical practices or hospitals.

Single-payer health care is distinct and different from socialized medicine in which health care facilities and workers receive payment as government employees.


----------



## Markle (Aug 1, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Sure.....Let the ACA fail.......and with your fucked up elected ilk with their fingers up their asses.....and in COMPLETE control of government....they'll be "forgiven"....
> Lets see what happens when...as you say......320 million Americans are without insurance.....
> That should be interesting, don't you think, moron????....LOL


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2017)

Rustic said:


> nat4900 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> ...



One should bear in mind, in the UK it's mandatory. Automatically deducted from your salary when you get a job, so there's no choice. Even if you go down the private health insurance route, you still pay your contributions. No opting out.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2017)

I thought Germany was a single payer system. Seems it's not.

German health care is not single payer


----------



## Rustic (Aug 2, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...


Thats why socialism sucks...


----------



## dblack (Aug 2, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...



That's the nature of government. The reason laws exist is to enforce conformity. If participation in, and paying for, a government program is voluntary, there's no reason for it to be a law in the first place.


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## Tommy Tainant (Aug 2, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Rustic said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...


And its like that because that is what people want. Nobody is ever going to get elected on an abolish the NHS platform.


----------



## dblack (Aug 2, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > One should bear in mind, in the UK it's mandatory. Automatically deducted from your salary when you get a job, so there's no choice. Even if you go down the private health insurance route, you still pay your contributions. No opting out.
> ...



Not all people. If that were the case, there be no need for it to be "mandatory".


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Aug 2, 2017)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Which taxes are optional ? My tax money goes towards the NHS which I am happy about. They also go to build nulear bombs which I am not happy about. Where is my trident opt out ?


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Rustic said:
> ...



Who  said they would?


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Why would you want an opt out?


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Aug 2, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


I dont like paying for bombs. Why would you want an opt out from the NHS ?


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Don't you start!

I didn't say I wanted to opt out.

And as I don't live in the country, your question is irrelevant.


----------



## Markle (Aug 3, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> And its like that because that is what people want



Simply because it is all they have ever known.  NHS is a horrible system with inhumane waiting lists leading to the deaths of many and poor care and their well known death panels.


----------



## Markle (Aug 3, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Which taxes are optional ? My tax money goes towards the NHS which I am happy about. They also go to build nulear bombs which I am not happy about. Where is my trident opt out ?



Why do you wish to be under the control of Russia or China?


----------



## Mindful (Aug 3, 2017)

Depending which way you look at it:

How the NHS was Founded – the Fight Against Private Medicine

The Real History of the NHS


----------



## Mindful (Aug 3, 2017)

Interesting reading.

**There’s plenty of reason for free marketers to be skeptical of proposals, like the ones emanating from Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders and hinted at by Republican Donald Trump, that would create a single-payer healthcare coverage system in the United States.

But, if only because these proposals have resonance with the public, they’re certainly worth debating. A rational debate depends on getting the facts straight and there’s one fact that both left and right often get wrong: “single payer” healthcare of the sort Bernie Sanders proposes isn’t universal in the developed world and the US system isn’t particularly free-market by the standards of peer nations.**

No, the Rest of the World Doesn't Use "Single Payer" | Eli Lehrer


----------



## Redfish (Aug 3, 2017)

Markle said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > nat4900 said:
> ...




wake up and smell reality,  your definition of single payer will morph into socialized medicine very quickly.   Give the government a taste of power and control and it will take more and more of it.  

BTW,   medicare by itself if not the wonderful program you claim it to be.  under medicare alone you will be responsible for at least 20% of your medical bills.   If you buy a supplement or a medicare advantage plan, more will be covered, but you are paying for that extra coverage.


----------



## Johnbull92 (Aug 7, 2017)

The problem with democrats and republicans alike is that they have limited ideas to fix healthcare in America. Republicans want Obamacare gone out of sheer hatred for it and to give the rich tax cuts. Democrats have no good ideas to fix it and some of them are pushing for single payer. 

I read new book titled "On the principles of social gravity" by Tobore Tobore and i really recommend it for everyone. This book argues that all human systems are governed by nine rules. The author examined healthcare in chapter two and using those rules came up with the most interesting ideas i have read on healthcare. I am not sure why that book is not famous yet. Perhaps its because it was just released. 

We need new ways of thinking to provide accessible and affordable healthcare for all Americans


----------



## dblack (Aug 7, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Because I don't want Donald Trump calling the shots on my health care.


----------



## Markle (Aug 9, 2017)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



That's good because he doesn't either.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

Markle said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



If we put government in charge of health care via single-payer, the Donald Trump's of this world will be controlling it.


----------



## Sun Devil 92 (Aug 10, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



Pure crap.


----------



## Sun Devil 92 (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Oh, the left wants that so bad.

They secretly love Trumpster.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


I would suggest that with all the current wrangling going on that is now the case anyway.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



The funny thing is that people like Donald Trump are the people who own insurance companies who are calling the shots on your healthcare.

Instead of having lots of Congressmen who you get to vote for, you end up with an insurance dude, anonymous. 

Not only that the US federal govt spends MORE per capita on healthcare than the UK govt which has single pay, and that gets you NOTHING. 

Not only that, in the UK you get the healthcare you pay for, with insurance companies they're like "you're getting older, you have to pay more" or "You have a preexisting condition, we don't like you, fuck off" or "You're too old, we won't bother with you any more".

Yes, you can wake up one day, after paying in loads for healthcare, and get NOTHING. Doesn't happen in the UK.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...


SIckness should not lead to bankruptcy.

As a wider issue society should care for its sick.There is a mutual benefit.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



No, and it happens. 

The problem is that if you have car insurance, then you can choose whether you want a car, and can choose what kind of car, and if you can't afford the insurance, you don't get a car. 

But you can't chose your body.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Because I don't want Donald Trump calling the shots on my health care.
> ...



The not so funny thing is, government can have you arrested or killed if you don't do what they say. A private company has no such power. If you don't like what they're selling, you can tell them fuck off.

This is something socialists can't bear to acknowledge, but it's the naked truth.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > If we put government in charge of health care via single-payer, the Donald Trump's of this world will be controlling it.
> ...



It's getting there. Do we want more, or less?


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



It's hard not to see a true authoritarian vibe in their politics.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I'm not sure what this has to do with healthcare. A govt could bomb your house, is this reason to not have govt funded healthcare? It's like two very separate things. 

Private companies can disappear and take all your money with them leaving you with nothing.

Victims of pension funds collapse win High Court battle

"Four people who lost their company pensions when their schemes collapsed won a landmark High Court case against the Government yesterday.'

"Campaigners for 125,000 people who lost their life savings in company pensions that failed during the last decade, said that the High Court ruling raised hopes that the Government would be forced to pay compensation."

I went hunting for health insurance recently, and what I found was that as you get older what you pay in increases simply because you're getting older. If you were born with a problem, you're fucked, they won't cover it, so you could literally end up without treatment simply because they don't care. You're there for profit, and that you can't take out new insurance once you're over like 60 years old, you're stuck with whatever it is you've got because no one else will take you, and over 75 they don't give a damn at all and you can't get insurance no matter what you want. 

I've seen both sides of the system, and the insurance in the US makes me angry, and it makes me realize it's all a con.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


More I would say. You pay over the odds for what you have now. Cut out all the parasites and have a proper health service that is open to all regardless of wealth. Its the Christian way to do it.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Well, if Trump so wills it.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



You're talking about socializing health care. I'm trying - with little hope of succeeding - to open your eyes as to why that's a dangerous idea. 

Bill Gates can't have you arrested for running Linux. Mao can.



> I've seen both sides of the system, and the insurance in the US makes me angry, and it makes me realize it's all a con.



I wholeheartedly agree. That's why I don't want to be forced to be a mark.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

Seriously, if we get single-payer, every fucking election will be a public referendum on whether sick people live or die. I can't imagine why so many of you idiots welcome the idea.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Listen, govt can be dangerous. That's why it should be less dangerous if people are electing representatives who supposedly have the best interests of those who voted for them. However the US has decided it's better to vote for entertainment value than actually what is right. 

But the problem here is that govt can control businesses anyway, they have laws that can do good or do bad to businesses. So either way, private healthcare insurance or not, you're still reliant on those who have been elected to do the right thing. So you should probably vote better.

Mao can't have anyone arrested, he's dead. But your point is there. 
The problem is that the Koch brothers probably could have you arrested because they control enough people who could make it happen. Politicians shouldn't have the power to get people arrested full stop, they have the power to make laws and make sure those who should be carrying them out do. But money talks in the US, and money is making sure that man people support the idea of a healthcare system which makes some people very rich, at YOUR expense. 

Again, I've lived under both types of healthcare, and I prefer the one where I know I'm not getting fucked over. Yes, I've seen the problems with single payer healthcare, and where I've seen it, it could certainly do with more safeguards. 

But like I've said, safeguards are required for both single payer and private health insurance type systems. The govt has the power to do a lot of things, but private companies also have the power to leech off of you and give you nothing.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> Seriously, if we get single-payer, every fucking election will be a public referendum on whether sick people live or die. I can't imagine why so many of you idiots welcome the idea.



Isn't it like that already? Seriously, Trump gets in and wants millions of people to die.

However look at the systems in Europe, like the French and Germans. They DON'T have a system like that. The system has been set up and legally they obliged to carry it out because they've made it WORK. Something US politicians seem incapable of making, something that actually functions.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > You're talking about socializing health care. I'm trying - with little hope of succeeding - to open your eyes as to why that's a dangerous idea.
> ...



To some degree, they can, which is the problem. The question is, should government have more power in that regard, or less.



> Mao can't have anyone arrested, he's dead. But your point is there.
> The problem is that the Koch brothers probably could have you arrested because they control enough people who could make it happen.


They don't have legal authority to do so. If they get caught doing that, they face prosecution.

Single payer will turn health care into a political football. It's far too important to let that happen.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, if we get single-payer, every fucking election will be a public referendum on whether sick people live or die. I can't imagine why so many of you idiots welcome the idea.
> ...



Yes. It's that way BECAUSE the ACA gives him that power. That's my entire point.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Should govt have power? Well they do. The problem isn't necessarily the power, it's how people vote. And right now the way people vote leads to too many problems where the voters don't trust the politicians. 

However suggest change to many of the voters and they say no. Why? Because they're completely in the power of the politicians who are completely in the power of those with money.

So the US has problems, basically. Single payer would just be cheaper, with less risks. 

No, the Koch brothers don't have legal authority. But they control the people who control the people who do have legal authority. You know it's true. If the Koch brothers wanted someone locked up, I'm sure it would happen.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Well, ACA isn't single payer, is it? It's a system which just carries on with the whole "throw money at insurance companies" thing.


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> Well, ACA isn't single payer, is it? It's a system which just carries on with the whole "throw money at insurance companies" thing.



And what makes you think "single-payer", in the US, would be any different?


----------



## frigidweirdo (Aug 10, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Well, ACA isn't single payer, is it? It's a system which just carries on with the whole "throw money at insurance companies" thing.
> ...



Well the first problem, main problem, problem that needs to be sorted before all else, is the problem of how people vote. Sort that out and maybe there would be a system that isn't.

In the UK you don't need insurance companies. In Germany and France and other places these insurance companies are non-profit companies, and they have to do certain things, like no getting out of pre-existing conditions, no dropping old people etc etc. It's doable, but you need a govt that actually serves the people first.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Numbers in the U.S. can vary widely between counties (side by side) in a single state.

Using bulk numbers to describe the U.S. is stupid.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



You are saying there is no private insurance in the U.K. ?


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## dblack (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Unlikely. Medicare is the go-to model for how to do single payer in the US, right? Do you think it's free of for-profit insurance companies? Think again.


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## Tommy Tainant (Aug 10, 2017)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Nope, there is private insurance. But it only covers you for limited things. Anything difficult or long term and they dont want to know.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



You can put this one in the conspriracy theories forum.


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## Markle (Aug 10, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> SIckness should not lead to bankruptcy.



It does not, the report written by Elizabeth Warren has been proven bogus.  You know that as well but it just doesn't fit your pathetic agenda.


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## Markle (Aug 10, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> More I would say. You pay over the odds for what you have now. Cut out all the parasites and have a proper health service that is open to all regardless of wealth. Its the Christian way to do it



Please show us all where in the Holy Bible we are told that it is grand for the government steal from its citizens to give to those chosen by the government.


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## Markle (Aug 10, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> So the U S has problems, basically. Single payer would just be cheaper, with less risks.


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## frigidweirdo (Aug 11, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. 

You say it's unlikely that the way people vote changes the way things happen, but the Germans get to vote twice, once in FPTP and once PR and FPTP is negative voting, and 10% more people vote for the main two parties in FPTP than they do in PR. 

What happens when people vote PR is that they feel free to vote for those they think will represent them, there's more choice. This means representatives are representing the people, and not special interests otherwise people will move to another party. 

This means that politics becomes more voter centered.


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## dblack (Aug 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



That's all a good thing actually. I'm very much in favor of changing the voting system. I'm a contributing supporter of FairVote.org

I'm just saying more representative voting won't change the nature of "single payer". It's still throwing money at the insurance companies.


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## frigidweirdo (Aug 11, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



That's good, but you're one of the few. Most people are told what to think, and they just accept that they like the system. 

Actually I think the way govt works changes the nature of healthcare. Look at Europe and see the different ways of making it work. The UK's system has been around since the end of WW2, and not changed much, but in Germany and France they've made it work better and it doesn't involve throwing money at insurance companies.


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## dblack (Aug 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



It's a growing movement, with some notable progress: (Ranked-choice voting is still alive in Maine — and here’s why it matters). But again, I don't think it really solves the problem with implementing single payer in the US.



> Actually I think the way govt works changes the nature of healthcare. Look at Europe and see the different ways of making it work. The UK's system has been around since the end of WW2, and not changed much, but in Germany and France they've made it work better and it doesn't involve throwing money at insurance companies.



Europe is different because the voters are different. They don't have the aversion to socialism that exists here in the US. I think that aversion to socialism is actually a good thing, but regardless of whether you agree, it's still real. Even if you are able to get majority support for single payer, a sizable minority will fight it tooth and nail. And as soon as the political winds change, they will undermine it and try to pull it back toward a free market. That's exactly what's happening now with ACA.

The problem with this back and forth thrashing between capitalism and socialism is that it leaves us in an unholy middle-ground where we get the worst of both worlds. We have all the downsides of authoritarian government combined with the greed of the profit-motivated corporations. Single payer would be a perpetual political football, and our health care would be up for grabs with every election.


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## frigidweirdo (Aug 11, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Well, the current system won't allow it because those with money don't want it to happen and they control government, don't they? Why do you think other healthcare gets in where there is PR? Where more sensible governing takes place?

Yes, Europe is different because the voters are different. They're different because of the different CHOICE they have.

Again, Germany.

Two very different elections. 

Here's the first election. 

The CDU/CSU ended up with 236 seats.
The SPD 58 seats
Die Linke 4 seats
Alliance/The Greens 1 seat


So, the CDU has a massive majority. Massive. They control everything, they can do everything they want, if people want to bribe the govt, they know who to go to. The people spoke, they wanted the CDU/CSU in power, right? 

Well no. 

Here's the second election

The CDU/CSU have 311 seats
The SPD have 193 seats
Die Linke have 64 seats
Alliance/The Greens have 63 seats

All of a sudden the CDU/CSU don't have a majority. Almost, but not quite. 316 would have been a majority. So they had to form a coalition. The SPD and CDU/CSU formed a coalition. The CDU couldn't do whatever they wanted, they had to work with others.

These two elections happened at the SAME TIME on the SAME DAY with the SAME PEOPLE voting. The difference was the attitude of the voters with their vote. 

Did it have an impact on what happened afterwards? Yes, of course. A coalition govt has to be more responsible, more willing to cooperate with the other side, and this will lead to better politics. 

Now, what happens in the US is that everyone's fighting each other. If they have a majority they can push through what they want, like now, if not then they end up doing all sorts of silly games and diluting what they've got until it's pointless. The US system doesn't work.


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## dblack (Aug 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> Yes, Europe is different because the voters are different. They're different because of the different CHOICE they have.



So you're saying the only reason the US doesn't tilt socialist is because of the voting system? I'd suggest you have some things to learn about our history and culture.



> Now, what happens in the US is that everyone's fighting each other. If they have a majority they can push through what they want, like now, if not then they end up doing all sorts of silly games and diluting what they've got until it's pointless. The US system doesn't work.



Agreed. But still, fixing this won't convert Americans into socialists. Over time, it _could_ happen. But if you look at the minor parties currently excluded by our 'two-party system', libertarians are way ahead of socialists. In fact, one of the reasons I support FairVote is that I think it would help the Libertarian party move us _away_ from socialism.


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## frigidweirdo (Aug 11, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, Europe is different because the voters are different. They're different because of the different CHOICE they have.
> ...



Well, the reality is the political system in the US favors the right massively. They get more presidential voting power than they get voters. The last two Republican presidents have gotten in with less votes than their opponents. 

This is fact. 

However the US system is open to abuse massively. Corruption, legitimized corruption at that and supported by the people. The voting system doesn't allow people to change parties, doesn't allow their own views to come out, it forces the voters to conform to the system.

In Germany you have a choice. There are plenty of parties to choose from. 2013 was a strange year where only 5 parties got into parliament. Usually there's like 7. Other countries have more. The US, with 300 million people plus manages to get two parties, and this is more or less uniform across the country.

If you want to vote socialist, who do you vote for? The Democrats, because you know the Democrats either win or lose, and if they lose the Republicans are in. Negative voting. 

So, whatever the Republicans or Democrats decide, is what policy is, and unless you're in the middle, it makes not much difference. If people want socialized healthcare, they vote Democrats, regardless of whether it's on their platform or not. Usually it isn't. So, you don't get socialized healthcare either way. 

Well it doesn't matter that Socialists are behind Libertarians. The reality is that choice is what should matter. How people vote doesn't reflect the views of the people, it reflects the views of the two main parties who are controlled by the rich who don't want to see their cash cows given up.


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## dblack (Aug 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> Well, the reality is the political system in the US favors the right massively. They get more presidential voting power than they get voters. The last two Republican presidents have gotten in with less votes than their opponents.
> 
> This is fact.



Agreed. But that's irrelevant to the decision between free markets and socialism. ie - you seem to be assuming libertarians are "right" and will benefit, or lose out, based on the same criteria. We're radically different. I've never voted Republican. Probably never will.



> However the US system is open to abuse massively. Corruption, legitimized corruption at that and supported by the people. The voting system doesn't allow people to change parties, doesn't allow their own views to come out, it forces the voters to conform to the system.
> 
> In Germany you have a choice. There are plenty of parties to choose from. 2013 was a strange year where only 5 parties got into parliament. Usually there's like 7. Other countries have more. The US, with 300 million people plus manages to get two parties, and this is more or less uniform across the country.
> 
> ...



I hear you. Libertarians are in exactly the same, albeit diametrically opposed, boat. If people want free markets, they (most of them, anyway) vote Republican, despite the fact that the Republicans never deliver. That's why I think it's reasonably valid to look at the performance of third parties as indication of how things would go, relatively, if the voting system were opened up.



> Well it doesn't matter that Socialists are behind Libertarians. The reality is that choice is what should matter. How people vote doesn't reflect the views of the people, it reflects the views of the two main parties who are controlled by the rich who don't want to see their cash cows given up.



It matters if you're claiming that changing the voting system would usher in a viable single payer program. I doubt it would. But I agree we should change the voting system. At least then we'd find out.


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## frigidweirdo (Aug 11, 2017)

dblack said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the reality is the political system in the US favors the right massively. They get more presidential voting power than they get voters. The last two Republican presidents have gotten in with less votes than their opponents.
> ...




I'm not really sure where you're making those assumptions. By the right I mean the Republicans because I'm being lazy, you don't need to explain everything in full every time. Libertarians are probably right, but not necessarily, but they get left behind with the system. They'd have seats in Congress with PR. 

I'm not claiming that changing the system would automatically have single payer. I'm saying without changing the system you won't get single payer.


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## threader (Sep 11, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



  Very interesting.  Now to get the sheep to jump over the fence.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 11, 2017)

Single payer answers the question, "what's the quickest way for progressives to turn the USA into Venezuela?"


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## Mindful (Sep 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Why would you want single payer?


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## nat4900 (Sep 11, 2017)

threader said:


> Very interesting. Now to get the sheep to jump over the fence.




Were Trump to decide to adopt the single payer system (as he once advocated) ...the "sheep" or better known as, the Trump cult-members, would actually flip and comply; probably claiming that such is what they wanted all along (such is the low mentality and hypocrisy of cult members.)


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## healthmyths (Sep 11, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> threader said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting. Now to get the sheep to jump over the fence.
> ...


I wonder if all you experts are aware that Medicare the "model" you so often tout as being how "single payer" works is really made up of :
A) 16 companies that contract with Medicare that actually  pay 70% of all Medicare claims AND
What is a MAC - Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services

B) Over 600 companies (most for profit!!!)  that Medicare pays about $800/month per Medicare beneficiary to manage the Medicare Advantage insured. There are nearly In 2016, the majority of the *57 million people* on Medicare are covered by traditional Medicare, with *31*% enrolled in a Medicare Advantage plan (Figure 1).
Since 2004, the number of beneficiaries enrolled in private plans has more than tripled from 5.3 million to *17.6 million* in 2016.May 11, 2016
CMS1211780 - Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services


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## dblack (Sep 12, 2017)

Mindful said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


It will give socialists centralized control of one of our most important needs.


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## Redfish (Sep 12, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> threader said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting. Now to get the sheep to jump over the fence.
> ...




Single payer = higher taxes, poorer medical care, long waits for needed surgeries, euthanasia, fewer new drugs and treatments, and shorter lives.

But in your ignorance, you want that.    You are either very stupid or very ignorant, or both.


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## nat4900 (Sep 12, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Single payer = higher taxes, poorer medical care, long waits for needed surgeries, euthanasia, fewer new drugs and treatments, *and shorter lives.*




The U.S. is number 43 in that survey on longevity.....moron !!!

Life Expectancy for Countries


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## Redfish (Sep 12, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Single payer = higher taxes, poorer medical care, long waits for needed surgeries, euthanasia, fewer new drugs and treatments, *and shorter lives.*
> ...




that is because you liberals keep shooting each other.   Has nothing to do with medical care.


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## Markle (Sep 12, 2017)

Tommy Tainant said:


> SIckness should not lead to bankruptcy.



As you know, the study done by Elizabeth Warren has been proven bogus many times over.


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## Markle (Sep 12, 2017)

dblack said:


> That's all a good thing actually. I'm very much in favor of changing the voting system. I'm a contributing supporter of FairVote.org



How would you change the voting system?


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## Markle (Sep 12, 2017)

Nat4900 has a false idea about our longevity being shorter than other countries because of single payer health care.  That has been proven bogus yet desperate Progressives continue to cling to this bogus idea.  As always, they desperately grasp at straws.

The United States is a country of mixed races, national origins, and histories.  Nat4900 and other desperate Progressives compare us with homogeneous countries, such as Sweden.

Many of the citizens of Minnesota are of Scandinavian heritage.  Even their dialect is Scandinavian in nature.  They draw out the vowels.  Much as I did in my early years.

The life span in Minnesota is 81.1 years.

The life span in Sweden is 82.68 years.

Not nearly the difference Progressives cling to.

The same is true about the life expectancy of citizens from Hawaii.  Theirs is the longest in the US at 81.3 years.

The life expectancy of Asian countries varies between 84 in Japan to 76 in China and Vietnam.

Try again losers.


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## Markle (Sep 12, 2017)

Single Payer is a dead issue!

Vermont has tried Single Payer and it has proven to be a failure.

From the far left site, Politico:  Why single payer died in Vermont

Also from Forbes:  Six Reasons Why Vermont's Single-Payer Health Plan Was Doomed From The Start

FAR, FAR LEFT California proposed legislation for their own Single Payer system.  EVEN California, after doing the numbers discovered much to their dismay, that Single Payer Health Care would cost as much as their entire state budget.  EVEN they said...oops!  

As we all know too, Single Payer is a failure in Canada as well as Britain.

Why do Progressives demand unaffordable and worse still, inferior single payer health care for our country?


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## dblack (Sep 12, 2017)

Markle said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > That's all a good thing actually. I'm very much in favor of changing the voting system. I'm a contributing supporter of FairVote.org
> ...



Any kind of alternative system that alleviates the lesser-of-two-evils factor. The link in the quote above is a good place to start.


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## Markle (Sep 12, 2017)

dblack said:


> Any kind of alternative system that alleviates the lesser-of-two-evils factor. The link in the quote above is a good place to start



Absolutely not. 

I'm deprived of my final choice.  There is not a snowballs chance in heck that would ever become the standard.

Someone could easily win an election with 30 or even less, percent of the vote. 

"A" wins 30% of the initial vote, "B" 27%, "C"23% and "D" 20% so "D" is eliminated.

The second count of the same ballots, "A" wins 34%, "B" 29%, "C" 37%  so "B" is eliminated.

The third count of the same ballots "C" wins 51% and "A" wins 49%

"B" wins the election with 23% of the initial vote.  Totally unacceptable.

Our current system has worked superbly for over 240 years.  If your candidate loses, get a better candidate.


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## Redfish (Sep 13, 2017)

Markle said:


> Single Payer is a dead issue!
> 
> Vermont has tried Single Payer and it has proven to be a failure.
> 
> ...




liberals continue to push it because they think it will be free for THEM.


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## Redfish (Sep 13, 2017)

dblack said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
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Oh, I know.  Let the media pick the winner.


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## MadChemist (Sep 13, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Is the question, 'How most quickly to get the federal deficit to 20 Trillion?'



The U.S. is now over $20 trillion in debt — here’s how it got there

Reported on September 12th.


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## Mindful (Sep 13, 2017)

Why is it assumed that Europe has single payer health care?


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## MadChemist (Sep 14, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Why is it assumed that Europe has single payer health care?



I don't specifically know the answer to that question.

However, the fact that you use the word assumed means that you think people are working off something other than knowledge of how the system works.

Can I ask if you are aware of place in Europe that don't have "single payer" ?


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## Mindful (Sep 14, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Why is it assumed that Europe has single payer health care?
> ...




This, for example:

The Dutch really have it together on health care, they have a system that has been proposed as a model for the US to emulate. In stark contrast to many other European systems, it’s actually based entirely on private insurers, rather than a single-payer or entirely national system. Yet the Dutch system is universal, has far superior rates of satisfaction with quality of care and access, and still costs a _fraction_ of what we pay for health care per capita in the US. How is this possible?

What is healthcare like in the Netherlands?


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## Redfish (Sep 14, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > Single Payer is a dead issue!
> ...




once again gnat finds the truth funny.   Whats funny, gnat?   You know that you support single payer because you think it would give you free medical care.   But you are wrong.  No matter what the tax rate is on the rich it wont generate enough money to give free medical care to 330,000,000 people.   YOU will pay for it.  Either through higher taxes on your meager income or through a sales tax on everything you buy.

NOTHING is free, moron.


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## Redfish (Sep 14, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Why is it assumed that Europe has single payer health care?
> ...




The  UK has it, but it you want good medical care you buy an additional policy on your own.


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## Redfish (Sep 14, 2017)

Mindful said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...




How many people in the Netherlands?   Trying to compare that to the USA is foolish.


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## Mindful (Sep 14, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > MadChemist said:
> ...



I wasn't comparing it. You asked me a question.


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## Markle (Sep 14, 2017)

Mindful said:


> The Dutch really have it together on health care, they have a system that has been proposed as a model for the US to emulate. In stark contrast to many other European systems, it’s actually based entirely on private insurers, rather than a single-payer or entirely national system. Yet the Dutch system is universal, has far superior rates of satisfaction with quality of care and access, and still costs a _fraction_ of what we pay for health care per capita in the US. How is this possible?
> 
> What is healthcare like in the Netherlands?



You LIE about their cost of health care.

What you neglect to mention is that the Netherlands have the HIGHEST TAXES IN THE WORLD.  So your post is worthless.  NO one will pay what is being paid by the workers in the Netherlands.

1.00 Euro is equal to $1.19 in US dollars.

For 2016, the total tax on income (income tax plus mandatory pension, social security and state funded medical care payments, all of which are a percentage of income up to a maximum) for people under the age 65 is as follows:

For the part of income up to € 19,922: 36.55%; tax on €19,922 is € 7,281
For the part of income between €19,923 and €33,715: 40.40%; tax on €13,793 is € 5,572
For the part of income between €33,716 and € 66,421: 40.40%; tax on €32,706 is €13,213
*On all income over € 66,421: 52% [1]*
*So their income tax on all income over $79,000 is 52%. Do you see that in the United States?*

*Health insurance premium*
From 2006 there is a new national health insurance scheme (_zorgverzekering(swet)_, _Zvw_ ). The premium is partly income-dependent and paid as a tax supplement. It applies for the "contribution income" (_bijdrage-inkomen_ ), which is part of box 1, including labor income, social security benefits, pensions, and life annuities (it does not include the "owner-occupied dwelling income"). It is withheld if the wage withholding tax applies.* The rate is 7.1% for e.g. wages and 5% for e.g. life annuities, coming on top of the tax percentages mentioned above.* The total income for which these rates apply is limited to ca. 50,000 euro.

*Flat tax on savings and investments*
There is a flat tax on the total value of the savings and investments of 1.2% per year. It is nominally part of the income tax, as a 30% tax on a fixed assumed yield of 4% of the value of the assets (this is regardless of the actual income from the assets). EUR 21,139 (2012; higher for 65+ with a low income) of the value of the assets is exempted.

The amount of money invested in approved "green" investments (up to EUR 56,420) is exempted. Moreover, a tax credit per year of 0.7% of the value is applied for these investments. The credit only counts towards box III.

*The VAT TAX (Value Added Tax) in the Netherlands is 21%.  *
A Value Added Tax is basically a sales tax.  It is not assessed on food and assessed at 6% on other necessities.  If you buy a cell phone, 24% tax, a bicycle, 24% tax, a car, 24% tax, new dining room suite, 24% tax.

What are the VAT rates in the Netherlands?

Good luck with that!


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## Redfish (Sep 15, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...




single payer doesn't work anywhere.  Ask the Brits or Canadians.   It sounds great, "free medical care for everyone, and the government pays all the bills"   The problem is that the government has only one source of income---------------US, you and me.   Do you want 65% of your income (no matter how much you make) going to the government?   That's what they do in the wonderful Scandinavian countries that you keep ranting about.


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## Mindful (Sep 15, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Single payer, or single provider?


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## dblack (Sep 15, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Single authority in control.


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## Pop23 (Sep 15, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Now that even the slow-witted Trump has admitted that "who knew that health care reform would be so hard"........it is time for democrats to use the single-payer option as the benchmark of what we must enact have a BETTER and CHEAPER health care insurance plan to cover EVERYBODY (remember that it was Trump who listed those 3 factors that I've place in caps as the reason for voting for him.)
> 
> The rest of the civilized planet has long adopted the single-payer system.....and the option has proven cheaper with other countries' citizens having longer lives and less morbidity.
> 
> ...



No thanks, I'll just pay my own way.


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## Redfish (Sep 15, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...




when all of the doctors and hospitals are paid by the government, its the same thing.  That's what you say you want, but you have no idea how expensive it would be or how the quality of care would decline.   Can you say VA?


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## Mindful (Sep 15, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Any system is only as good as who is running it.


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## Redfish (Sep 15, 2017)

Mindful said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...




absolutely 100% correct.   Would you turn your life over to the members of congress who cannot get anything done, to the clowns running the VA and letting vets die before receiving treatment, to some anonymous civil servant sitting in a cubicle in DC?   Wake the fuck up and THINK about what you are asking for.


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## nat4900 (Sep 15, 2017)

Redfish said:


> Can you say VA?




Sure, ask ANY veteran if he or she is willing to give up VA benefits

Ask any European if he or she is willing to trade HC insurance with an American.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 15, 2017)

nat4900 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Can you say VA?
> ...


So Obama didnt fix it?


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 15, 2017)

Jake and his ilk worship government like a Diety, so of course they'll surrender their life to it


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