# Guns (firearms) & Ammo (maybe other weapons as well)



## Stryder50 (Jun 28, 2021)

Not seeing a thread for the nuts-n-bolts of the this area's topics, here is one more focused on the mechanics.
..........
Ruger LCP II .22 LR Ammo Testing​...
*By: Warren Gray*

Copyright © 2021

_“What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight — it’s the size of the fight in the dog.” _— President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1958.

_“We could get twice as many hits in the same amount of time with the .22 LR. There were also fewer misses.” _— Edward “Ed” Head, Operations Manager, Gunsite Academy, AZ, October 2010.

The ultra-compact, Ruger Lite-Rack LCP II in .22 Long Rifle was introduced in December 2019, according to the Ruger web site, as “a low-recoil pistol with an easy-to-manipulate slide that shoots comfortably regardless of your hand size or strength...as a training tool...or as a concealed-carry option.”

While many people mistakenly think that the .22 LR cartridge is not a suitable, self-defense, pistol round, _Gunpowder Magazine_ published an article that I wrote on “.22 LR Self-Defense Ammo Testing” on February 11, 2020, in which I tested seven different .22 LR loads in wet, natural, modeling clay to reasonably simulate the terminal, ballistic effects of a close-range, shooting incident, with some pleasantly-surprising results.

The test handgun for that article was a Walther P22Q target pistol with a 3.4-inch barrel, usually chosen as my lightweight, trail gun when hiking in the forests. But, having recently acquired a Ruger LCP II (#13705) in .22 LR as a very small, concealment or backup pistol with a 2.75-inch barrel, I realized that it may be useful to test this tiny, self-defense gun in a similar manner, firing selected ammunition into wet clay blocks to visibly demonstrate the close-range penetration, expansion, and temporary-wound-cavity potential of each round.

While a 9mm or .45 ACP handgun is definitely a better choice for serious, self-defense situations, these weapons are usually fairly large and difficult to conceal, especially in the summertime, when we wear very light clothing for comfort. The Ruger LCP II is certainly small and quite concealable under most circumstances, and weighs a mere 12.3 ounces (only three-quarters of a pound) when fully loaded with 11 rounds of ammunition (10 rounds in the magazine, and one in the chamber.)

Chris Baker of _Lucky Gunner_ wrote on April 29, 2020, that, “When we get into the realm of 12-ounce, pocket pistols carried for self-defense, something chambered in .22 (LR) makes a lot of sense...the LCP (II) easily wins the title for the best itty-bitty, .22 pocket pistol. That’s the gun you have on you when you can’t or don’t want to carry around a real gun...they don’t make a 9mm this small, and if they did, I wouldn’t want to shoot it...the .22 is faster (than the .380 version)...the recoil is negligible...I’m inclined to recommend (that) people just skip the .380 altogether and carry the .22.”

Jon Wayne Taylor added in his LCP II .22 LR review for _The Truth About Guns_ exactly one month later, that, “One of the greatest features of the LCP line is that they are tiny. You can carry them anywhere, so you are more likely to carry them everywhere. That’s a good thing...While it’s small and might not be for every shooter, the big thing the little gun has going for it is that it’s possible for almost anyone to operate this gun safely.”

A .22 LR Ruger may not be ideal for self-defense against humans, but it’s certainly much better than a rock, a stick, or even a knife, and _no one_ wants to be shot with any caliber. Statistically, an armed attacker usually flees the scene approximately 92 percent of the time, as soon as a law-abiding citizen draws a pistol, without firing a shot, but in that very rare instance in which they stand their ground, your tiny LCP II will have to suffice. Is it enough gun for a lethal encounter?
...








						Ruger LCP II .22 LR Ammo Testing
					

By: Warren GrayCopyright © 2021“What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight — it’s the size of the fight in the dog.” — President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1958.“We could get twice as many hits in the same amount of time with the .22 LR. There were also fewer misses.” —




					www.gunpowdermagazine.com


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## LuckyDuck (Jun 28, 2021)

The .22LR is a good caliber for plinking and if you have to defend yourself in your home, you will have to hit a vital area or they may still come at you.  My conceal carry is a .45ACP Glock.  Despite my age, I still hit the target to ensure someone breaking into my home, will be bagged up and carried out.
As to firearms in general, the entire purpose of the Second Amendment isn't for hunting, plinking, or sport competitions and the .22LR is worthless as a defense weapon against tyrannical troops either invading our nation, or our nation becoming tyrannical.  That's where my .308 comes in, should such a remote situation occur.


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## whitehall (Jun 29, 2021)

No firearm is worthless unless it doesn't work. Even in that case the brandishing of a viable firearm might be enough. If that's all ya got the shock from a .22 might be enough to distract a pervert from raping you. Whatever you can handle.


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## Canon Shooter (Jun 30, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> While many people mistakenly think that the .22 LR cartridge is not a suitable, self-defense, pistol round...


Next time someone tells you that, ask them if you can shoot them , just once, in the chest with a .22 LR...


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## Stryder50 (Jun 30, 2021)

Canon Shooter said:


> Stryder50 said:
> 
> 
> > While many people mistakenly think that the .22 LR cartridge is not a suitable, self-defense, pistol round...
> ...


Did you read the full article linked, to which I only excerpted the opening paragraphs?


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## Stryder50 (Jun 30, 2021)

Behind the U.S. ammo shortage as gun sales hit new records​(video interviews)




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						Behind the U.S. ammo shortage as gun sales hit new records
					





					www.msn.com
				



~~~~~~~~~~~~
How Long WIll the Ammo Shortage Last?​








						What Shooters Should Know About The 2021 Ammo Shortage
					

Where did all the ammo go? Click here to learn more about the current ammo shortage in the country, what caused it, and when it will end.




					blog.gunassociation.org
				



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Here Are the Reasons for the National Ammunition Shortage​
The reality behind the national scarcity of ammo








						Here Are the Reasons for the National Ammunition Shortage
					

Employee hoarding, hidden inventory, and even government conspiracies — what’s the truth behind this national ammunition shortage?




					freerangeamerican.us
				



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Federal Gives the 411 on the Great 2020 Ammo Shortage​








						Federal Gives the 411 on the Great 2020 Ammo Shortage :: Guns.com
					

The country's largest domestic manufacturer of small arms ammunition breaks down the reasons behind the current ammo famine on American shelves and assures that help is on the way.




					www.guns.com
				



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*The 2020/2021 Ammo Shortage
What's Behind It?
Are Industry Leaders Telling The Truth?









						The 2020/2021 Ammo Shortage -  What's Behind It? Are Industry Leaders Telling The Truth?
					

The 2020/2021 Ammo Shortage -  What's Behind It? Are Industry Leaders Telling The Truth?




					pirateswithoutborders.com
				



*


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## Stryder50 (Jun 30, 2021)

Canon Shooter said:


> Stryder50 said:
> 
> 
> > While many people mistakenly think that the .22 LR cartridge is not a suitable, self-defense, pistol round...
> ...


Why not double tap or more?
(If I get the heart, one would be enough)


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## Stryder50 (Jun 30, 2021)

Couple more on the ammo shortage, and gateways to other websites of interest.
Can't Find Ammo? Why the Great Bullet Shortage Could Last Years.​According to the weapons website The Reload, those in the industry expect the shortage to continue for years.








						Can't Find Ammo? Why the Great Bullet Shortage Could Last Years.
					

According to the weapons website The Reload, those in the industry expect the shortage to continue for years.




					nationalinterest.org
				



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What's Causing the Ammo Shortage?​Since the 2020 buying frenzy began, we are still asking, “Where's the ammo?” Whether for personal defense, range use, or hunting, fresh ammunition is in short supply. Here's why.








						What's Causing the Ammo Shortage? - Guns and Ammo
					

Since the 2020 buying frenzy began, we are still asking, “Where's the ammo?” Whether for personal defense, range use, or hunting, fresh ammunition is in short supply. Here's why.




					www.gunsandammo.com
				



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The Truth Behind The Great Ammo Crisis​




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						The Truth Behind The Great Ammo Crisis - American Arms Inc
					

There's been a lot of speculation and plenty of conspiracy theories about what's going on with the ammo shortage. Caleb Giddings breaks down the truth behind the Great Ammo Crisis.




					www.american-arms.com
				




Which leads to ...
The Truth Behind The Great Ammo Crisis​








						An Official Journal Of The NRA | The Truth Behind The Great Ammo Crisis
					

There's been a lot of speculation and plenty of conspiracy theories about what's going on with the ammo shortage. Caleb Giddings breaks down the truth behind the Great Ammo Crisis.




					www.shootingillustrated.com


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## Stryder50 (Jun 30, 2021)

Down in the "Garage" is a topic related thread on gun shows, so here's a link for ready cross references;




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						Gun Show Idiocy - $950 Norinco SKS
					

You heard that right. I went to a small gun show tonight. There were about 25 neckbeards, price-gougers, and hoarders set up there and the admission was $5.00. The pistols came in two varieties: Cheaper foreign-made imported .25 autos, 380 autos, 9mm autos, and revolvers in the $350-$400 price...



					www.usmessageboard.com


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## Canon Shooter (Jun 30, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> Canon Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Stryder50 said:
> ...



No, but I don't need some study to tell me that getting shot in the chest with a .22 would suck enough to make me wanna' leave...


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## Canon Shooter (Jun 30, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> Canon Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Stryder50 said:
> ...


I said "once" to make the point that being shot in the chest with a .22 would immensely suck...


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## Stryder50 (Jul 3, 2021)

Here's more Leftist~Regressive libtard thinking in play.  Tax the legal gun owners for the actions done by illegal gun owners. 
San Jose lawmakers impose fees on gun owners​


			San Jose lawmakers impose fees on gun owners
		


The gal, Antonia, in the interview nails the absurdity of this policy.  I like her!


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## Stryder50 (Jul 6, 2021)

LuckyDuck said:


> The .22LR is a good caliber for plinking and if you have to defend yourself in your home, you will have to hit a vital area or they may still come at you.  My conceal carry is a .45ACP Glock.  Despite my age, I still hit the target to ensure someone breaking into my home, will be bagged up and carried out.
> As to firearms in general, the entire purpose of the Second Amendment isn't for hunting, plinking, or sport competitions and the .22LR is worthless as a defense weapon against tyrannical troops either invading our nation, or our nation becoming tyrannical.  That's where my .308 comes in, should such a remote situation occur.


My preferred conceal care is a Kahr K9 - 9mm in a single stack mag. It's small and easy to carry tucked inside waist band.  I've other pistols, but they are larger in size and to conceal carry I need to have a vest or jacket on.  One of these is basically the at home ready top grab weapon.

I also have a few long guns, rifles and shotgun.  My Mossburg 500 (12 gauge) with the short barrel is the alternate home defense.  Just the sound of racking a round into chamber can be enough to give any intruder second thoughts about coming further.

Point of the article in the OP is that even a small semi-auto that fires .22LR can be effective for close in personal defense and also small enough for carry in warmer weather when one has fewer closes on, such as in a pocket.

I've an AR-15 in .223 which is only slightly larger diameter than the .22LR.  Of course the bullet is longer and more massive and the casing and powder in it much more than you get in the .22LR.


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## LuckyDuck (Jul 6, 2021)

A shotgun is the best home defense weapon in a family home.  My significant other's son-in-law was saying to her that they were considering a home defense weapon.  She recommended that he speak with me.  I asked one question:  "Are you BOTH going to practice regularly at the range?"  He said, she wouldn't, but he would.  My answer was that:  "If she won't be practicing, but plans on using it, if it comes to that, then get a shotgun (.20 gauge or .410) and have her at least be familiar on how to handle and load it."


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## ProfessorHawthorne (Jul 8, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> Behind the U.S. ammo shortage as gun sales hit new records​(video interviews)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most of those stories are spot on.

I'm sorry, but this "ammo shortage" thing is self-inflicted.  Gun owners do it to themselves.  Anybody remember the great toilet paper shortage in April of last year?  It's just what people do in the face of uncertainty - hide, hoard and hope.

If you've been around the shooting sports long enough, say at least 20 years, you have seen this scenario played out before.  When Bush jr was elected, gun and ammo sales tanked.  When Obama was elected, sales surged until it was clear he wasn't going to get anything through congress.  After the 2012 election, with dems having an edge in the senate and the house controlled by republicans, there was a minor surge.  Until... until... Sandy Hook.

Obama saw his chance and went off the rails - demanding weapons bans, registration, tougher gun controls, etc.

This started in December 2012.  For some reason, gun owners forgot that there was only a shaky coalition in the senate and the gop still controlled the house.  This set off the worst round of shortages I've ever seen.

In 2008, the shortages were relatively mild as most folks were still buying at retail stores.  The distribution channels stayed somewhat stable and it was all over by late 2009.  I bought $25 bricks of CCI SV 22lr at Dick's in October of 2009.

However, by early March 2013, you couldn't find a round of 22lr to buy - anywhere.  A lot more folks were buying via the internet and the channels were sucked dry rather quickly.  By the end of April 2013, you couldn't buy an AR15 rifle, upper or lower anywhere.  5.56 ammo had risen to a $1 a round and 9mm was going for 60 cents a round.  And no 22lr.  Most of the small AR makers quit taking calls, orders or even checking emails by May.  And that was the story for the rest of 2013.  Ammo would show up on Gunbroker and Armslist for absurd prices and people would buy it - more or less keeping the situation unstable.  I remember folks over at Rimfire Central trying to justify paying $15 a box for mini mags as the "new normal" or that prices were going up anyway.  Idiots?  Yes, but if you really wanted 22lr, that's what you paid.

By the end of 2014, 5.56 had dropped to 65 cents a round and 9mm was 40 cents.  22lr was still $15 a box.

By 2016, 5.56 was 40 cents a round and 9mm was a quarter.  22lr was back, sort of at $50 a brick.  The ammo manufacturers had finally geared up with most running 3 shifts.  With Hillary looking like a sure thing in 2016, new manufacturing plants had been built for ammo and firearm production.

Then Trump won.  Demand fizzled.  Prices started dropping.  By 2019, 5.56 was 28 cents a round and 9mm was as low as 17 cents a round for Blazer Brass.  CCI SV 22lr was down to $24 a brick.  Ammo was available everywhere as were almost any guns you were looking for.  Manufacturers had shed capacity and reduced production - the channels were backed up.  Prices were below 2007 levels.  Great time to stock up and my wife and I did.

So, here we are again and with all of the same old conspiracy theories and finger pointing.  Yes, we had a series of events in 2020 that exacerbated things - covid 19, a contentious election, millions of new gun owners and crime being allowed to escalate.  A lot of bad shit. But, here we are, a year later, and ammo pricing is still stupid.  Why?  Because enough people are still paying these prices and until they run out of money, this shortage and its associated pricing debacle will continue,  We are our own worst enemy sometimes.

Maybe someone will trade a box of 9mm for a 12 pack of Charmin.

In keeping with the OPs original theme, is anybody building or planning a build of an AR9 pistol?


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## Stryder50 (Jul 8, 2021)

Interesting concept for a "pistol".  Bit hard to wear on waistband as conceal~carry ...




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						AR9 Pistol - Wilson Combat
					

Wilson Combat AR9 Pistol, designed for superior reliability and maximum accuracy, while retaining the familiar controls of the AR platform.




					www.wilsoncombat.com


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## marvin martian (Jul 8, 2021)

whitehall said:


> No firearm is worthless unless it doesn't work. Even in that case the brandishing of a viable firearm might be enough. If that's all ya got the shock from a .22 might be enough to distract a pervert from raping you. Whatever you can handle.



The Israeli army uses a suppressed Ruger 10/22 for close-range sniper purposes.


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## justinacolmena (Sep 15, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> While many people mistakenly think that the .22 LR cartridge is not a suitable, self-defense, pistol round, ...


It's for killing, not for making a loud noise.


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## Stryder50 (Sep 16, 2021)

marvin martian said:


> The Israeli army uses a suppressed Ruger 10/22 for close-range sniper purposes.


Interesting!
My Ruger 10/22 has a scope.  I can see where at a few hundred yards and with hollow-point round, could be effective if the shot is placed well.


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## flewism (Sep 16, 2021)

A few hundred yards no way, 100 yards max maybe 150 yards on a good day.  That round doesn't have the ass behind it to be consistent for a few hundred yards.


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## Canon Shooter (Sep 17, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> Did you read the full article linked, to which I only excerpted the opening paragraphs?



I didn't need to, as the part I was commenting about was in your OP.

All I was saying was that, although it may not be a preferred self defense round by John Q. Public, if someone's coming at you and you start shooting them in the chest with a .22, they're going to back off...


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 17, 2021)

flewism said:


> A few hundred yards no way, 100 yards max maybe 150 yards on a good day.  That round doesn't have the ass behind it to be consistent for a few hundred yards.


Heaven forbid the target is moving at all.
We shot some 22LR at steel from 300yds.
One we had the elevation dialed in, it would hit more often than not, but you could play a hand of euchre during the flight.
And you'd never hear the hit, just see the impact.


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## Mac-7 (Sep 20, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> Not seeing a thread for the nuts-n-bolts of the this area's topics, here is one more focused on the mechanics.
> ..........
> Ruger LCP II .22 LR Ammo Testing​...
> *By: Warren Gray*
> ...


I once owned a ruger .22 auto and it NEVER misfired no matter how cheap the ammo


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## justinacolmena (Sep 20, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> I once owned a ruger .22 auto and it NEVER misfired no matter how cheap the ammo


That's the ammo, not the gun. It's rimfire. The firing pin strikes the rim of that brass cartridge, and the explosive primer goes off and ignites the gunpowder which propels the bullet through the barrel and out the muzzle. So you never personally ran into a batch of bad ammo. Bully for you, but don't be such a gun-grabbing bullying police-officer suck-dick dumbass about it.


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## Mac-7 (Sep 20, 2021)

justinacolmena said:


> That's the ammo, not the gun. It's rimfire. The firing pin strikes the rim of that brass cartridge, and the explosive primer goes off and ignites the gunpowder which propels the bullet through the barrel and out the muzzle. So you never personally ran into a batch of bad ammo. Bully for you, but don't be such a gun-grabbing bullying police-officer suck-dick dumbass about it.


When I do get occasional jams in a Sig .22 but not in  the ruger I blame it on the gun

To be clear the Sig is reliable too, just not quite as good as the ruger


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## justinacolmena (Sep 20, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> When I do get occasional jams in a Sig .22 but not in the ruger I blame it on the gun
> 
> To be clear the Sig is reliable too, just not quite as good as the ruger


A jam is the gun. Stuck slider mechanism or something, then. Not a brass cartridge of ammunition that was actually struck by the firing pin and failed to go off.


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## Mac-7 (Sep 21, 2021)

justinacolmena said:


> A jam is the gun. Stuck slider mechanism or something, then. Not a brass cartridge of ammunition that was actually struck by the firing pin and failed to go off.


Rimfire ammo is more difficult to ignite than centerfire

And the ruger was better at not malfunctioning than other .22 autos in my experience


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## Rigby5 (Nov 11, 2021)

Saw it listed at $370.


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## Rigby5 (Nov 11, 2021)

.22 LR is good at penetration, and .22 magnum is good even for kevlar.


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## Batcat (Nov 11, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> Not seeing a thread for the nuts-n-bolts of the this area's topics, here is one more focused on the mechanics.
> ..........
> Ruger LCP II .22 LR Ammo Testing​...
> *By: Warren Gray*
> ...


The problem with the .22 long rifle round is that you often get a misfire with the round. The chances of that happening with a rimfire round in my experience is much higher than that of a center fire round. 









						An Official Journal Of The NRA | What You Should Know About .22 Rimfire
					

Now that the .22 ammo shortage is all but a thing of the past, we no longer have to ask, "Where's the ammo?" Now it's time to appreciate that this round exists at all, considering the incredible amount of work that goes into producing each one of the diminutive little rounds.




					www.americanrifleman.org
				








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						Is .22 LR Too Unreliable for Self-Defense? - Lucky Gunner Lounge
					

We field test various 22 long rifle loads to determine if the 22 LR too unreliable for self-defense or something you can depend upon.




					www.luckygunner.com


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## Rigby5 (Nov 11, 2021)

Batcat said:


> The problem with the .22 long rifle round is that you often get a misfire with the round. The chances of that happening with a rimfire round in my experience is much higher than that of a center fire round.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know about that?
I usually start target practice with a .22, to warm up, get used to the sound/recoil, regulate breathing, practice body stance, etc.
I then only move on the more expensive ammunition for the final ending of the target practice.
So I have shot much more .22 than anything else.
And of the many bricks of .22 that I have purchased and fired, I have never had any misfire.
In fact, I have only had 1 dud in my life, and that was an army surplus 9 mm, that likely only went off on a primer, and lodged in the barrel.
I did not know it and fired the next round, bulging the barrel of the Browing Hi-Power.
Luckily it did not burst.
Dumbest thing I ever did.


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## Batcat (Nov 11, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I don't know about that?
> I usually start target practice with a .22, to warm up, get used to the sound/recoil, regulate breathing, practice body stance, etc.
> I then only move on the more expensive ammunition for the final ending of the target practice.
> So I have shot much more .22 than anything else.
> ...


You have good luck. I usually get at least one dud round in a box of 100 .22 long rifle rounds.


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## miketx (Nov 15, 2021)

Canon Shooter said:


> Next time someone tells you that, ask them if you can shoot them , just once, in the chest with a .22 LR...


Back in the 70's there was this TV show called "That's Incredable", hosted by John Davidson. One time I was watching it and they had a man on that was going to demonstrate a bullet proof vest, by allowing hislef to be shot with a 22 lr caliber rifle while wearing the vest. I watched and it was clear that none of these idiots had a clue. The guy loaded the rifle and asked the idiot if he was ready and he said he was.

He shot the guy in the chest, and the vest worked. However, it did nothing to cancel the kinetic energy of the bullet. He dropped to his knees proclaiming "Goddamn, Goddamn!", as he gasped for air. I laughed my ass off.


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## miketx (Nov 15, 2021)

Batcat said:


> You have good luck. I usually get at least one dud round in a box of 100 .22 long rifle rounds.


I don't.


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## Otis Mayfield (Nov 15, 2021)

The ammo is cheap so you can target practice a lot and build up your accuracy.

There's almost no kick so it doesn't mess with your accuracy the way a 44 magnum does.

The guns and ammo are of a lighter weight, making it easier to carry.

The only real downside I can think of is that if someone is enraged enough to beat you to death, you need a disabling shot to stop them, and that's harder to do with a 22. But such attacks are rare, for civilians anyway.


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## AZrailwhale (Dec 6, 2021)

whitehall said:


> No firearm is worthless unless it doesn't work. Even in that case the brandishing of a viable firearm might be enough. If that's all ya got the shock from a .22 might be enough to distract a pervert from raping you. Whatever you can handle.


Brandishing a visible firearm will get you killed.  Never display a firearm unless you are prepared to instantly shoot the target dead.  A firearm (or any weapon) isn't a magic wand that compels people to obey you.  I once had a moron like the character in Crocodile Dundee pull a Bali song knife on me and demand my wallet.  I was on reserve duty, in fatigues with a Buck Folding Hunter on my belt.  He was waving his knife around; I pulled my knife and went to low guard with the edge of the blade up and made it obvious that I was prepared to gut him.  He was astonished when I pulled my own knife and rapidly left the scene of the attempted robbery.


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## Seymour Flops (May 29, 2022)

My neighbor had a snake in her yard, and she asked my wife and I what she should do.  I recommended animal control, and to stay away from it.  She was afraid the snake would get away while animal control was in route, if they would even come.   Then she would still be worried about it biting her young son.

I said that she could shoot it, we live in semi-rural suburbs and no one would be alarmed by a gunshot.  She said she had her ex-husband's gun, but she didn't remember how to work it.   My wife said, "Seymour, why are you standing there talking?  Go get your gun, before the snake gets away."

I shot the snake with my j-frame .38, not really a snake gun so it took a couple of shots.  I asked to see her ex's gun so I could give her a quick five on how to use it.  It was a Walther P22, which looked like an ideal gun for home defense for a woman not so gun savvy.  I could not figure out how to eject the magazine, until I looked it up.  The latch is part of the trigger guard, which seems really stupid.  Seemed like a good gun other than that.


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