# Jeremiah v CMike: Jesus the Jewish Messiah or Jewish/Christian God



## Dante

*Jeremiah v CMike: Jesus the Jewish Messiah or Jewish/Christian God*


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## CMike

Hi Jeremiah,

I am a little short of time, but I wanted to give the principles of why Jesus is not the Jewish messiah or a jewish god based on the Torah.

1) G-D said in numerous passages that there is only one G-D. That he is one. That we should only look to him as our savoiur. That to treat any other being or person as a divine being is the same as idol worship.

2) Jesus can't be Jewish messiah because he did not fulfill the messianic prophesis. The reason G-D made the prophesies is so that we know who the messiah is when he comes.

They are in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37


World peace
All the jews coming to Israel
All the staying in Israel
All the nations worshipping one G-D
The temple in jerusalem being rebuilt and standing forever.
One unified king of Israel

These things didn't occur yet, hence no messiah yet.

3) Jesus said that he fulfilled the law, and supposedly changed the law. There is the supposed addition of the New Testament, the Christian bible.

However, in Deuteronomy 13 G-D says.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

So G-D made it clear that jews can not accept any additions nor subtractions from the law.

For all these reasons it is impossible, based on the Torah, that jesus was the jewish messiah, and even more impossible that he was some sort of divine being.


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## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> Hi Jeremiah,
> 
> I am a little short of time, but I wanted to give the principles of why Jesus is not the Jewish messiah or a jewish god based on the Torah.
> 
> 1) G-D said in numerous passages that there is only one G-D. That he is one. That we should only look to him as our savoiur. That to treat any other being or person as a divine being is the same as idol worship.
> 
> 2) Jesus can't be Jewish messiah because he did not fulfill the messianic prophesis. The reason G-D made the prophesies is so that we know who the messiah is when he comes.
> 
> They are in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37
> 
> 
> World peace
> All the jews coming to Israel
> All the staying in Israel
> All the nations worshipping one G-D
> The temple in jerusalem being rebuilt and standing forever.
> One unified king of Israel
> 
> These things didn't occur yet, hence no messiah yet.
> 
> 3) Jesus said that he fulfilled the law, and supposedly changed the law. There is the supposed addition of the New Testament, the Christian bible.
> 
> However, in Deuteronomy 13 G-D says.
> 
> 1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
> 
> So G-D made it clear that jews can not accept any additions nor subtractions from the law.
> 
> For all these reasons it is impossible, based on the Torah, that jesus was the jewish messiah, and even more impossible that he was some sort of divine being.



Thank you, Mike.  

In response to your first point I agree.  G-d is One.  To acknowledge any other god would be idolatry and idolatry according to G-d is forbidden.  

The scriptures in the Torah tell us that we are created in the image of G-d.  To understand our makeup we must turn to our Creator who said something quite revealing in Genesis 1 : 26. 

 Here it is:  Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. 

 To be clear, this dominion G-d gave Adam & Eve is mentioned by King David in Psalm 8:4 - 9....  What is man that thou art mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?   You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.. you made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet; all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.  Oh Lord, Our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A side note***

A far cry from Darwins definition of man, is it not?  Ha! ha!  To hear him tell it mankind evolved from mere beasts!  Talk about an attempt at diminishing the most glorious work God ever created - mankind!   This was precisely Darwins intention - to diminish the most glorious creation of G-d and convince mankind he is no different from any beast crawling on all fours' and is just as primitive in his inclinations of survival, feeding his belly, etc. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now the focus should be on the first part of that scripture - Let US make man in OUR image, OUR likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air....... 

US, OUR, OUR.  He refers to himself this way 3 xs in the same scripture.  ( Gen. 1 : 26 ) 
Yet!  In the very next verse ( Gen 1:27) look at what He says!  So God created man in HIS image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.  

Stop there and reflect on who it is G-d was speaking to when He said, Let US make man in OUR image....  Now go to Genesis 1 the beginning of the Torah - and we read...... In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.  

When God was speaking in Genesis 1: 26 He was speaking to someone.  Who?  His Spirit - who Christians refer to as the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost.  Who else was he speaking to?  The Word, Jesus Christ.  First look at the Holy Spirit and His Role in the God head.  

 The power of God - The Holy Spirit hovered over the face of the deep - The Holy Spirit is the Power of God.   ( The Torah declares, It is not by might, not by power but by My Spirit sayeth the Lord.   Who's Spirit?  He says HIS SPIRIT )  

Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light.  God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1.  Who is the Word?  That is the question in this debate.  Who is He?  Is He the Jewish Messiah?  Why do Christians call him The Word?  In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this:  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made.  In him was the life, and that life was the light of men.  The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.  

Let's stop there.   In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus.   The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God.  Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead.  G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit.  This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness.  

Mankind is a trichotomy.  ( not so for the animal kingdom - someone please tell a Darwinian - ) We are a spirit - we live in a body - we have a soul.  ( read Psalm 103 where King David says to himself, Bless the Lord O My SOUL and ALL that is within me bless His Holy Name.  David is speaking by his inner man to his own Soul and commanding it to bless the Lord - He is Worthy - He is speaking this to himself.  Just as God spoke to the Holy Ghost and the Word in his stating, Let US make Man in OUR Image, OUR likeness.......   

When you die, your body will return to the dust.  You will then leave this earth and be present with the Lord - you - Your spirit is the real you - your soul - the seat of your will, emotions, mind will be with your spirit and you will be able to remember, recall all that happened here while on earth and give an account on that day ( to G-d )  as will every person who was ever born.  

So what does this mean, Mike?  In my own opinion, it means that the math has been all wrong here on this matter of God being a trichotomy.  It isn't 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.   Not at all.  It's 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.  Hear O Israel the Lord Your G-d is ONE.  Indeed He is.  

I've concluded my first response to point 1. 

Addressing your second point, Mike.    While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one.  ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient )   We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be.

  In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 )  which I can list here for you now:   

Passover ( april )   - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april )   Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 ) 
First Fruits ( april )   Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 ) 
Pentacost ( June )  Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 ) 
Trumpets ( Sept )   Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 ) 
Atonement ( Sept )  Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 ) 
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) 

Addressing point 3 briefly.  I believe the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 is at the door right now, Mike.  Never before in history have we had a scenario in which Ezekiel 37 - also 38 and 39 could unfold.  Today we do.  ( russians and iranians were never allies before this time period and bible scholars all over the world couldn't imagine how a russian led islamic army could march to the mountains of Jerusalem and declare war on the Israelis because the two nations were never allies. Today as we read the headlines of the news we see that they are now close allies )   In fact, today we even have a book in our library of congress called Final March to the South written by a russian madman by the name of Vladimir Zhirinovsky.  He has fully outlined the plans for this war Ezekiel depicted of a Russian led Islamic army marching against Israel.  Ezekiels prophecy will indeed come to pass it.  It appears to be very close now.  

Thank you for your time reading my response, Mike.   To answer your second and third points on this debate I will use the Torah to quote the specific prophecy and then the New Testament Scripture in my own book to verify Jesus fulfilled it - side by side . 

On the matter of adding to the Word of G-d.  I agree with you, Mike.  The New Testament has the same warning. If anyone adds to or takes away from the Word that was given it is a very serious sin.  I fully understand your concern and we can approach this from the pov that the Torah is the verifiable Word of G-d and the New Testament is being examined to find out whether or not these claims over Jesus being the Messiah are true or not.  To identify whether or not his life, acts, words are in perfect alignment with what the Hebrew prophets said about the Messiah that was to come.   Thank you for reading.  

  - Jeremiah


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## CMike

Hi Jeri,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Genesis 1:26

26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.

Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.

Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.

However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.

27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.

"Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." 


3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.


And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?

"Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"

The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.

"Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "

G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."

Another passage

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.

I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.

However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.

"Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."

The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem. 

Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.

The point of having the prophesis is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.

In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.

"In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now: 

Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 ) 
First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 ) 
Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 ) 
Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 ) 
Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 ) 
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "

I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"?  The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.

The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose. 

I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here. 

However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.

And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.

Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?

As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.

However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.


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## Book of Jeremiah

These are some of the prophecies that I personally believe identify Christ as the Jewish Messiah, Mike.  According to Torah prophecy and New Testament Scripture giving the testimony of Jesus Christ.   This is Part 1 and covers the prophecies about the coming of the Messiah..  His birth..  Still under construction - not finished yet...  



PROPHECY

"And I will put enmity Between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." - Genesis 3:15 

FULFILLMENT

"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law."  -  Galatians 4: 4 

PROPHECY

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel."   - Isaiah 7:14

FULFILLMENT

".....She was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.  And Joseph .....kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His Name Jesus."  - Matthew 1:18 , 24, 25, also Luke 1:26-35 

PROPHECY

"I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee."  Psalms 2:7  Also 1 Chronicles 17: 11-14; II Samuel 7:12-16.  

FULFILLMENT

".... And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."  - Matthew 16:16, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35, 22:70, Acts 13: 30-33 and John 1:34, 39 

PROPHECY

"And in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.  - Genesis 22:18  

FULFILLMENT

"The book of the geneology of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."  - Matthew 1:1
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.  He does not say, 'And to the seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, And to your seed, that is, Christ.  - Galatians 3:16

PROPHECY

"But God said to Abraham.......through Isaac your descendants shall be named.  - Genesis 21:12

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus...the son of Isaac.....  - Luke 3:23, 34 also Matthew 1:2

PROPHECY

"I see him, not not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, And a scepter shall rise from Israel, And shall crush through the forehead of Moab, and tear down all the sons of Sheth.  - Numbers 24:17

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus...the son of Jacob......  Luke 3:23, 34, Matthew 1:2 and Luke 1:33

PROPHECY

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the rulers staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. "  - Genesis 49:10

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus.....the son of Jesse...... "
-Luke 3:23, 32 also Matthew 1:6

PROPHECY

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, When I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land." - Jeremiah 23:5, II Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 132:11 

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus.......the son of David......"  - Luke 3:23, 31, Matthew 1:1, 9:27,22:41-46,  Mark 9:10; 10;47,48; Luke 18;38, 39, Acts 13:22, 23; Revelation 22:16

Jewish source*  The Messiah as being referred to as the "Son of David" is scattered throughout the Talmuds.  

Another note*  Behold the days are coming" is a common expression which is used in reference to the entrance of the Messianic era - Look up Jeremiah 31:27-34. 

PROPHECY

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth from Me to be ruler in Israel.  His going forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."
-Michah 5:2   

FULFILLMENT

"And He is before all things, and in Him All things hold together."  - Colossians 1: 17 , John 1:1, 2, 8:58; Revelation 1:17, 2;8, 22;13

Prophecy of Micah 5:2 also fulfills the below*  

FULFILLMENT  

"......Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea....... - Matthew 2:1, John 7:42; Matthew 2: 4-8; Luke 2:47

note*  In Matthew 2:6 the scribes tell Herod with great assurance that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem.  It was well known among the Jews that the Christ would come from Bethlehem.  - John 7:42.  

PROPHECY

"Let the kings of Tarshish and the islands bring presents; The kings of Sheba and Seba offer gifts.  
-Psalms 72:10 also Isaiah 72:10 and Isaiah 60:6 

FULFILLMENT

"Then when Herod saw he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its environs, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the magi.  - Matthew 2:16

PROPHECY

"The Lord says to my Lord:  Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." 
-Psalm 110:1  

FULFILLMENT

"For today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.  - Luke 2:11

"He said to them, Then how does David in the Spirit call Him "Lord," saying, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my Right Hand, until I put thine enemies beneath thy feet.  If David then calls Him, Lord, How is He his son?  - Matthew 22: 42-45

PROPHECY

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.  - Isaiah 7:14

FULFILLMENT

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, God with us.  - Matthew 1: 23

PROPHECY

I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.  - Deuteronomy 18:18

FULFILLMENT

"And the multitudes were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee. - Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16, John 4:19, 6:14, 7:40 

PROPHECY

"The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, "Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."  - Psalms 110:4

FULFILLMENT

"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.  - Hebrews 3: 1

"So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee, just as he says also on another passage, Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedeck.  - Hebrews 5: 5, 6 

PROPHECY

"For the Lord is our judge, The Lord is our lawgiver, The Lord is our king; He will save us......- Isaiah 33:22

FULFILLMENT

"I can do nothing on My own initiative.  As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."  - John 5: 30 also II Timonthy 4: 1


PROPHECY

"But as for Me, I have installed My King upon Zion, My holy mountain."  - Psalms 2:6 , Zechariah 9:9, Jeremiah 23;5

FULFILLMENT

"And they put above His head the charge against Him which read, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews." - Matthew 27:37, Matthew 21:5, John 18:33-38 

PROPHECY 

"And the Spirit of the Lord will rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."  - Isaiah 11:2 also Psalms 45:7, Isaiah 42:1,61:1,2

PROPHECY

"For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me.  - Psalms 69:9

FULFILLMENT

"And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple.....and.....He said, Take these things away; stop making my Fathers house a house of merchandise.  -John 2:15-17

** Comment in my own King James version Jesus said, Zeal for my fathers house consumes me.  I prefer the King James but have been using NIV, NAS, for easy reading.  

** Comment from A. R. Fausset on this particular passage referring to Psalm 119: 139 - "For zeal of thine house has eaten me up - consumes me like a flame with its very intensity.  Another outstanding interpretation of that particular scripture.  

This concludes the prophecies concerning the birth of Christ and now begin the prophecies concerning His Ministry and finally the prophecies that fulfill his death & resurrection.  ( 3 parts - Birth - Ministry - Death & Resurrection )  I will continue that here but am taking a break so I will stop here.  This is still under construction...  sorry.  I'll finish shortly...   - Jeremiah


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## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> Hi Jeri,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
> 
> Genesis 1:26
> 
> 26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
> 
> Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
> 
> Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
> 
> Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
> 
> However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
> 
> 27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
> 
> It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
> 
> "Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
> 
> 
> 3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
> 
> 4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
> 
> 
> And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
> 
> "Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
> 
> The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
> 
> "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
> 
> G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
> 
> Another passage
> 
> I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
> 
> I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
> 
> I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
> 
> However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
> 
> "Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
> 
> The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
> 
> Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
> 
> The point of having the prophesis is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
> 
> In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
> 
> "In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
> 
> Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
> Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
> First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
> Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
> Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
> Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
> Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"?  The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
> 
> The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
> 
> I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
> 
> However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
> 
> And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
> 
> Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
> 
> As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
> 
> However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.



Hi, Mike!  I just answered every single one of your points and when I tried to post it, it said I didn't have permission! lol!  Oh my gosh.   That was an hours worth of writing and work - gone - I will write the reply and copy it for later on.  Sorry!   - Jeremiah


----------



## CMike

Just to make it easier I'm going to respond in blue. The quoting featuresare cumbersome.


These are some of the prophecies that I personally believe identify Christ as the Jewish Messiah, Mike.  According to Torah prophecy and New Testament Scripture giving the testimony of Jesus Christ.   This is Part 1 and covers the prophecies about the coming of the Messiah..  His birth..  Still under construction - not finished yet...  



PROPHECY

"And I will put enmity Between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." - Genesis 3:15 

FULFILLMENT

"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law."  -  Galatians 4: 4 

What does that have to do with jesus?

PROPHECY

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel."   - Isaiah 7:14

FULFILLMENT

".....She was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.  And Joseph .....kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His Name Jesus."  - Matthew 1:18 , 24, 25, also Luke 1:26-35 

Wrong translation for the word virgin. Alamah means young woman. Betulah means virgin.

14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the *young woman *is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

PROPHECY

"I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee."  Psalms 2:7  Also 1 Chronicles 17: 11-14; II Samuel 7:12-16.  

FULFILLMENT

".... And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."  - Matthew 16:16, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35, 22:70, Acts 13: 30-33 and John 1:34, 39 

The son is King David. I will add Rash's commentary.


7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.


It's talking about King David.


Rashi- I will tell of the decree: Said David, This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.

The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.

You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called My firstborn son. And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): for God said, etc., By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver Israel. And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.
this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.


begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son. We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) He shall call Me, You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.


PROPHECY

"And in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.  - Genesis 22:18  

FULFILLMENT

"The book of the geneology of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."  - Matthew 1:1
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.  He does not say, 'And to the seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, And to your seed, that is, Christ.  - Galatians 3:16


15. And an angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven.

16. And he said, "By Myself have I sworn, says the Lord, that because you have done this thing and you did not withhold your son, your only one,


17. That I will surely bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your descendants will inherit the cities of their enemies.


18. And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you hearkened to My voice."


19. And Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beer sheba; and Abraham remained in Beer sheba

As you correctly stated G-D is clearly talking to Abraham. 

I don't get how you are connecting to jesus?




PROPHECY

"But God said to Abraham.......through Isaac your descendants shall be named.  - Genesis 21:12

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus...the son of Isaac.....  - Luke 3:23, 34 also Matthew 1:2

Same issue

PROPHECY

"I see him, not not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, And a scepter shall rise from Israel, And shall crush through the forehead of Moab, and tear down all the sons of Sheth.  - Numbers 24:17

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus...the son of Jacob......  Luke 3:23, 34, Matthew 1:2 and Luke 1:33

Did Jesus "crush through the forehead of Moab, and tear down all the sons of Sheth"

PROPHECY

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the rulers staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. "  - Genesis 49:10

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus.....the son of Jesse...... "
-Luke 3:23, 32 also Matthew 1:6

The messiah will be a descendent of David. Tribal lineage goes by the father's side. However, we don't know who Jesus' father was. Therefore, he would be classified in the general population as an Israelite

PROPHECY

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, When I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land." - Jeremiah 23:5, II Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 132:11 

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus.......the son of David......"  - Luke 3:23, 31, Matthew 1:1, 9:27,22:41-46,  Mark 9:10; 10;47,48; Luke 18;38, 39, Acts 13:22, 23; Revelation 22:16

Jewish source*  The Messiah as being referred to as the "Son of David" is scattered throughout the Talmuds.  

That is correct. However, we don't know who jesus' father actually was.

of the Messianic era - Look up Jeremiah 31:27-34. 

PROPHECY

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth from Me to be ruler in Israel.  His going forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."
-Michah 5:2   

FULFILLMENT

"And He is before all things, and in Him All things hold together."  - Colossians 1: 17 , John 1:1, 2, 8:58; Revelation 1:17, 2;8, 22;13

Prophecy of Micah 5:2 also fulfills the below*

What's the connection? 

FULFILLMENT  

"......Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea....... - Matthew 2:1, John 7:42; Matthew 2: 4-8; Luke 2:47

note*  In Matthew 2:6 the scribes tell Herod with great assurance that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem.  It was well known among the Jews that the Christ would come from Bethlehem.  - John 7:42. 

Actually that is true. The messiah will be from Bethlehem. However, millions of others are from Bethlehem too. 

PROPHECY

"Let the kings of Tarshish and the islands bring presents; The kings of Sheba and Seba offer gifts.  
-Psalms 72:10 also Isaiah 72:10 and Isaiah 60:6 

FULFILLMENT

"Then when Herod saw he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its environs, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the magi.  - Matthew 2:16

What does that have to do with Jesus?

PROPHECY

"The Lord says to my Lord:  Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." 
-Psalm 110:1  

FULFILLMENT

"For today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.  - Luke 2:11

What does that have to do with jesus?

"He said to them, Then how does David in the Spirit call Him "Lord," saying, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my Right Hand, until I put thine enemies beneath thy feet.  If David then calls Him, Lord, How is He his son?  - Matthew 22: 42-45

PROPHECY

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.  - Isaiah 7:14

FULFILLMENT

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, God with us.  - Matthew 1: 23

Incorrect translation. It says a young woman, not a "virgin".

PROPHECY

I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.  - Deuteronomy 18:18

FULFILLMENT

"And the multitudes were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee. - Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16, John 4:19, 6:14, 7:40 

What is the link to jesus?

PROPHECY

"The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, "Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."  - Psalms 110:4

FULFILLMENT

"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.  - Hebrews 3: 1

What does that have to do with jesus?

"So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee, just as he says also on another passage, Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedeck.  - Hebrews 5: 5, 6 

PROPHECY

"For the Lord is our judge, The Lord is our lawgiver, The Lord is our king; He will save us......- Isaiah 33:22

FULFILLMENT

"I can do nothing on My own initiative.  As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."  - John 5: 30 also II Timonthy 4: 1
Once again, no link to jesus

PROPHECY

"But as for Me, I have installed My King upon Zion, My holy mountain."  - Psalms 2:6 , Zechariah 9:9, Jeremiah 23;5

FULFILLMENT

"And they put above His head the charge against Him which read, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews." - Matthew 27:37, Matthew 21:5, John 18:33-38 

No actual link to jesus

PROPHECY 

"And the Spirit of the Lord will rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."  - Isaiah 11:2 also Psalms 45:7, Isaiah 42:1,61:1,2

PROPHECY

"For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me.  - Psalms 69:9

FULFILLMENT

"And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple.....and.....He said, Take these things away; stop making my Fathers house a house of merchandise.  -John 2:15-17

** Comment in my own King James version Jesus said, Zeal for my fathers house consumes me.  I prefer the King James but have been using NIV, NAS, for easy reading.  

** Comment from A. R. Fausset on this particular passage referring to Psalm 119: 139 - "For zeal of thine house has eaten me up - consumes me like a flame with its very intensity.  Another outstanding interpretation of that particular scripture.  

This concludes the prophecies concerning the birth of Christ and now begin the prophecies concerning His Ministry and finally the prophecies that fulfill his death & resurrection.  ( 3 parts - Birth - Ministry - Death & Resurrection )  I will continue that here but am taking a break so I will stop here.  This is still under construction...  sorry.  I'll finish shortly...   - Jeremiah  [/QUOTE]

None of these prophesies are linked to Jesus other than being from Bethlehem.

It seems that there is a tendency that when the Torah mentions a:

lamb
rock
saviour
blood
son 
suffering

and almost anything else to somehow say it's about Jesus.

Do you conceed that there is no way that you can CLEARLY link anything in the Torah to Jesus? 

It must be very creative.

Like aha it says "Saviour", that means it's talking about jesus

Or aha it says a lamb it must be taking abot jesus

or aha suffering it must mean it's talking about jesus.

The Torah is thousands and thousands of pages, it will mention just about anything you can think of. However, NONE of these things are actually linked to jesus.


----------



## CMike

Jeremiah said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jeri,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
> 
> Genesis 1:26
> 
> 26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
> 
> Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
> 
> Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
> 
> Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
> 
> However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
> 
> 27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
> 
> It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
> 
> "Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
> 
> 
> 3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
> 
> 4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
> 
> 
> And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
> 
> "Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
> 
> The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
> 
> "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
> 
> G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
> 
> Another passage
> 
> I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
> 
> I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
> 
> I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
> 
> However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
> 
> "Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
> 
> The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
> 
> Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
> 
> The point of having the prophesis is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
> 
> In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
> 
> "In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
> 
> Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
> Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
> First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
> Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
> Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
> Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
> Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"?  The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
> 
> The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
> 
> I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
> 
> However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
> 
> And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
> 
> Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
> 
> As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
> 
> However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Mike!  I just answered every single one of your points and when I tried to post it, it said I didn't have permission! lol!  Oh my gosh.   That was an hours worth of writing and work - gone - I will write the reply and copy it for later on.  Sorry!   - Jeremiah
Click to expand...


Maybe it was an act of G-D, just kidding.

Perhaps write it first in a word processing program, and then copy and paste.

I had to rewrite an email five times yesterday because of a server problem. It was very frustrating.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> Hi Jeri,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> Thank you, Mike.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> Genesis 1:26
> 
> 26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
> 
> Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri-
> This presents a problem for me because of the content of the scripture.  Let US make Man in OUR image.  Angels are not created in the image of G-d.   Not according to the scriptures that describe angelic beings.  Referring to Ezekiels visions and Isaiahs.   Not to mention that G-d doesn't share His Glory with anyone even angelic beings.  He said he wouldn't share His Glory and that we should not touch it.
> --------------------------------
> Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
> ---------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> Yes, and I agree with the teachings of the Torah.  I've learned more from the Jews about the Torah than I ever could have from a Pastor.  There is a mystical element to the Torah in my opinion the book is Divine.  It is the Holy Word of G-d.  But G-d sharing credit for the creation of man with angels?  I think I find it easier to believe he was conversing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
> --------------------------------------
> Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
> ---------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> You don't have to convince me, Mike!  I am a prospector who believes in the beauty of networking and credit sharing!  It is a good mitzvah. Is that the right word?  Good deed?
> 
> However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
> -------------------------------
> reply from Jeri
> Now this is where I'm lost, Mike.
> 
> 
> If he is speaking to angels as you say and he said Let US create man in Our image then he is inviting someone to assist him in Creating mankind.  I would be more persuaded to believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit he was speaking to.
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> 27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
> 
> It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
> 
> "Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
> 
> 
> 3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
> 
> 4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
> 
> 
> And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
> -----------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> I don't.  God SPOKE - His creative power was in the WORD he SPOKE.  It aligns perfectly with John Chapter one .......In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.   All things were created by Him and nothing was made without Him.  This is referring to Jesus Christ.  Known as the Word.
> -------------------------------------------
> "Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
> 
> The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
> 
> "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
> 
> G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Jeremiah replies:
> True and we don't walk around saying I am a spirit who sent my body to the store today because my Soul commanded it to.  We are a trichotomy but we do not refer to ourselves in three parts and neither does G-d.  Nevertheless, we are body, spirit and soul and as a Christian I believe God is G-d the Father ( you are his first children ) G-d the Son - Jesus - G-d the Holy Spirit - the distinctive roles, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day..  then Jesus comes to earth and dwells among us, then Jesus ascends to heaven but what does he promise first?  The Holy Spirit.  He is sending the Comforter.  This is the Spirit of God that dwells within the believers on the earth today.  This is why Christians refer to their bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit.   This is why we also say to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.  It is our spirit and soul that will be present before G-d.  Not our body that will return to the dust.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Another passage
> 
> I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
> 
> I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
> --------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> And I would agree with every single one of them.   G-d is One.  There is only One G-d.
> --------------------------------
> I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
> ---------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> I believe Jesus said it best when he prayed that G-d would make them One even as He and the Father were One.  One as in Unity.  In Union with each other.
> -------------------------------------
> However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
> -------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> That is correct.  When I pray to G-d of Israel I pray in the name of Jesus Christ but I am addressing G-d of Israel.  My heavenly Father.  The Holy Spirit helps me to pray because on my own I would not know what to pray for.  He is my guide on getting the Mind of G-d on a matter so to speak.  In my faith of Christianity.
> ---------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> "Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
> 
> The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
> 
> Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
> ----------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> I've put the first set up of the prophecies of his birth but I have yet to post the prophecies concerning his ministry on earth or his death and resurrection.  You may find some New Testament scriptures to be vague and not accept that as validation of a fulfillment of prophecy. That is fine.  I am just offering what I think might give reason to investigate it further.  Of course, there is the matter of the New Testament and verifying it as a valid source to base history from, etc.  I have thought about that too.
> 
> The point of having the prophesy is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
> 
> In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
> ------------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> Hold that thought.  I will share something later about exactly what Jesus did prophesy concerning the temple.
> 
> "In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
> 
> Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
> Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
> First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
> Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
> Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
> Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
> Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"?  The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> Yes, my point is that Jesus death fulfills the meaning of the Passover - the blood of the lamb that was put over the doorposts in Goshen when Pharoah was warned that the angel of death would be coming - the Jews were protected from death by the blood of the Lamb.  It signifies your eternal lives Christ paid for at the Cross.  You couldn't keep the law so he did it for you.  At the cross. It's finished.  ( fulfilled)  According to my intepretation of scripture - the Passover would signify the perfect lamb of God who was slain to take away the sins of the world.  The remission of sins.  He represents the Atonement in that he is the scapegoat - he hung on that cross in place of Barrabus.  The peoples will. .. with that Pilates wife who had a bad dream and had warned him to have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus  so he said, His blood be upon your hands.   He wanted no part of it as he feared his wifes dream.  There is much more as I can easily identify Christ in every single book of the Torah - he is depicted - but that would depend on how much time you've got.  jk.  note**  Jesus had to go to the cross.  Without the cross there wouldn't have been an atonement for us according to my faith.
> -------------------------------------------------
> The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
> -----------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Yes, I know, they are a picture of Jesus Christ and are to be remembered  ( I'm speaking from my own pov here, Mike, not a Jewish pov )
> 
> I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Yes, I know you are expecting your Messiah.  Many preparations are under way.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Well read some of the fulfillments to prophecy and see if it looks familiar anyhow.   You might recognize something.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> Not one jot or one tittle!  How well I know!
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
> ---------------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri :  I got off track with that and probably should not have put it in.  Sorry.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> If we add to the Gospel we will have the plagues mentioned in the book added to us and if we take away from the Gospel we will lose our salvation.  That's separation from G-d eternally.  Enough to make me shake in my boots.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.


----------------------------------
reply from Jeri: 

I do not believe for a split second G-d would ever throw a Jewish person who loves him into hell for obeying His commands to not add to or take away from His Book.  Your obedience is an act of true worship.  G-d is not impressed with loud songs and feigned praise from false lips.  He is looking to be worshiped in spirit and in truth and your desire to honor G-d by only accepting His Word as you have received it is a sign of it, Mike.  You have my respect for it. - Jeremiah 

 note to Mike**  I am not used to using this quote / response feature and most of your replies are in the box above.  Sorry about that.


----------



## CMike

Maybe pick a color other than blue and that way we can make it easier to have a discussion?


----------



## CMike

Jeremiah said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jeri,
> 
> 
> I do not believe for a split second G-d would ever throw a Jewish person who loves him into hell for obeying His commands to not add to or take away from His Book.  Your obedience is an act of true worship.  G-d is not impressed with loud songs and feigned praise from false lips.  He is looking to be worshiped in spirit and in truth and your desire to honor G-d by only accepting His Word as you have received it is a sign of it, Mike.  You have my respect. - Jeremiah  note to Mike**  I am not used to using this quote / response feature and most of your replies are in the box above.  Sorry about that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate your kind word. You are a credit to your religion.
> 
> I truely believe that if we all kept to the tenets of our religion the world would be a much better place.
Click to expand...


----------



## CMike

I know. I still didn't respond to your points.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> Maybe pick a color other than blue and that way we can make it easier to have a discussion?



I see you picked blue and that will help.  I don't know how to use the features on this board, Mike.   So I can't change colors!  lol.  I will be answering what you put up so give me some time here to catch up.  Good morning to ya!  - Jeri


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Just to make it easier I'm going to respond in blue. The quoting featuresare cumbersome.



Thank you, Mike.  




These are some of the prophecies that I personally believe identify Christ as the Jewish Messiah, Mike. According to Torah prophecy and New Testament Scripture giving the testimony of Jesus Christ. This is Part 1 and covers the prophecies about the coming of the Messiah.. His birth.. Still under construction - not finished yet... 



PROPHECY

"And I will put enmity Between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." - Genesis 3:15 

FULFILLMENT

"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law." - Galatians 4: 4 

What does that have to do with jesus?



Commentary from D.L. Cooper:  In Genesis 3:15 we find the first prediction relative to the Savior of the world, called "the seed of the woman."  In the original oracle God foretold the age-long conflict which would be waged between the "Seed of the woman and the Seed of the serpent" and which will eventually be won by the Messiah of Israel, the Savior of the World, on one hand, and Satan, the adversary of the human soul, on the other.  It foretells complete victory eventually for the Messiah.  Some commentators believe tha an echo of this promise and Eve's understanding of it found in Genesis 4:1 - the statement of Eve when Cain, her first son, was born.  I have gotten a man even Jehovah.  She correctly understood this primitive prediction but misapplied it in her intrepreting it as being fulfilled in Cain, her son.  It is clear that Eve believed that the child of promise who be Jehovah himself.  ( who came to earth as Jesus through the virgin birth ) Some old Jewish commentators used to interpolate the word "angel" in this passage and say the Eve claimed that her son was "the angel of Jehovah."  There is no grounds for that assertion.  The Galatians 4:4 scripture is the fulfillment of that prophecy according to bible scholars who have studied it out.  Such as D.L. Coopers commentary here.  



PROPHECY

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14

FULFILLMENT

".....She was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph .....kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His Name Jesus." - Matthew 1:18 , 24, 25, also Luke 1:26-35 

Wrong translation for the word virgin. Alamah means young woman. Betulah means virgin.

Alamah also means virgin.  See my notes below.  - Jeremiah

14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.



No, Mike.  You have the wrong word.  There are two definitions, not one.  



Virgin is denoted by two words in Hebrew, the first Bethulah is the proper meaning denoting a virgin maiden - Genesis 24:16  - according to scholar - Unger - Joel 1:8 is not an exception because it refers to the loss of one betrothed, not married.  



The second Hebrew word is Almah ( veiled ) which is a young woman of marriagable age. This is the word used in Isaiah 7:14.  "The Holy Spirit through Isaiah didn't use Bethulah, because both the ideas of virginity and marriagable age had to be combined in one word to meet the immediate historical situation and the prophetic aspect centering in the virgin - birth Messiah.  



PROPHECY

"I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee." Psalms 2:7 Also 1 Chronicles 17: 11-14; II Samuel 7:12-16. 

FULFILLMENT

".... And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." - Matthew 16:16, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35, 22:70, Acts 13: 30-33 and John 1:34, 39 

The son is King David. I will add Rash's commentary.



That isn't possible, Mike.  Because your own Jewish scholars have unanimously agreed that Psalm 2 was universally regarded by ancient Jews as the foretelling of the Messiah.  That according to the research of E.W. Hengstenberg.  Even modern day opposers recently have admitted it refers to the Messiah.  It isn't speaking of King David, it is speaking of the future Messiah.  




7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.


It's talking about King David.


Rashi- I will tell of the decree: Said David, &#8220;This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.&#8221;

The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.

You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called &#8220;My firstborn son.&#8221; And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): &#8220;for God said, etc., &#8216;By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver&#8230; Israel.&#8217;&#8221; And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.
this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.


begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: &#8220;I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son.&#8221; We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) &#8220;He shall call Me, &#8216;You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.&#8217;&#8221;



( response above ) -J.








PROPHECY

"And in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice. - Genesis 22:18 

FULFILLMENT

"The book of the geneology of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." - Matthew 1:1
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, 'And to the seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, And to your seed, that is, Christ. - Galatians 3:16


15. And an angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven.

16. And he said, "By Myself have I sworn, says the Lord, that because you have done this thing and you did not withhold your son, your only one,


17. That I will surely bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your descendants will inherit the cities of their enemies.


18. And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you hearkened to My voice."


19. And Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beer sheba; and Abraham remained in Beer sheba

As you correctly stated G-D is clearly talking to Abraham. 

I don't get how you are connecting to jesus?


Right, According to Matthew Henry commentary we find this concerning Genesis 22:18:  In thy seed, one particular person shall descend from thee ( for he speaks not of many but one, as the apostle observes in Galatians 3:16 - shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, or shall bless themselves, as the phrase is, Isaiah 65:16.  The above passage determines that the Messiah would come from the Hebrew race.  Comment from Jeri**  Jesus is Jewish and therein fulfills this prophecy as well concerning being the Jewish Messiah.  That is the connection.  

PROPHECY

"But God said to Abraham.......through Isaac your descendants shall be named. - Genesis 21:12

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus...the son of Isaac..... - Luke 3:23, 34 also Matthew 1:2

Same issue

....and same answer.  Jesus geneology confirms his Jewish roots.  He is a Hebrew.  

PROPHECY

"I see him, not not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, And a scepter shall rise from Israel, And shall crush through the forehead of Moab, and tear down all the sons of Sheth. - Numbers 24:17

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus...the son of Jacob...... Luke 3:23, 34, Matthew 1:2 and Luke 1:33

Did Jesus "crush through the forehead of Moab, and tear down all the sons of Sheth"



Doesn't Numbers 24:17 state, "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not nigh ( near ) When a king shall arise out of Jakob, and the Meshiha be anointed from Israel......  he is the one according to biblical scholars that this verse speaks of. 



PROPHECY

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the rulers staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. " - Genesis 49:10

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus.....the son of Jesse...... "
-Luke 3:23, 32 also Matthew 1:6

The messiah will be a descendent of David. Tribal lineage goes by the father's side. However, we don't know who Jesus' father was. Therefore, he would be classified in the general population as an Israelite



I understand what you are saying but according to the testimony of Jesus birth - Jesus Father is the Holy Spirit of G-d.  The bloodtype of the child is according to the fathers blood not the mothers.  The bloodtype of Jesus was G-ds according to my faith.( divine - not the blood of a man )   G-ds blood is pure, undefiled, without spot or blemish - the only Blood that would wash away the sins of the world vs  blood of animal that covers the sin but does not remit the sin.  This is why the new testament teaches that the shed blood of Jesus Christ is what redeemed the souls of mankind. Isaiah 53 is the story of Messiah and his death on the cross for our sins.   He was the perfect sacrifice once and for all and that is why He said, It is finished.  According to my faith.  



PROPHECY

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, When I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land." - Jeremiah 23:5, II Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 132:11 

FULFILLMENT

"Jesus.......the son of David......" - Luke 3:23, 31, Matthew 1:1, 9:27,22:41-46, Mark 9:10; 10;47,48; Luke 18;38, 39, Acts 13:22, 23; Revelation 22:16

Jewish source* The Messiah as being referred to as the "Son of David" is scattered throughout the Talmuds. 

That is correct. However, we don't know who jesus' father actually was.





According to my New Testament Jesus Father is G-d and his bloodtype is G-ds as well.  If one believes the account of the virgin birth - Jesus bloodtype must be G-ds bloodtype which is no ordinary blood - that is why he is called the perfect lamb of God who was slain for the sins of the world.  To wash those sins away once and for all - to all who believed.  



of the Messianic era - Look up Jeremiah 31:27-34. 

PROPHECY

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth from Me to be ruler in Israel. His going forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."
-Michah 5:2 

FULFILLMENT

"And He is before all things, and in Him All things hold together." - Colossians 1: 17 , John 1:1, 2, 8:58; Revelation 1:17, 2;8, 22;13

Prophecy of Micah 5:2 also fulfills the below*

What's the connection? 
 It is only fitting that Bethlehem - meaning the House of Bread, should be the birthplace of the one who is the Bread of Life.  ( Jesus ) God eliminated all the cities of the world, except one, for the entrance of his Incarnate Son.  There is the connection.  According to my faith. 
FULFILLMENT 

"......Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea....... - Matthew 2:1, John 7:42; Matthew 2: 4-8; Luke 2:47

note* In Matthew 2:6 the scribes tell Herod with great assurance that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem. It was well known among the Jews that the Christ would come from Bethlehem. - John 7:42. 

Actually that is true. The messiah will be from Bethlehem. However, millions of others are from Bethlehem too.



True, of course.  But when looking for the Messiah you must admit it narrows it down quite substantially, Mike. 

PROPHECY

"Let the kings of Tarshish and the islands bring presents; The kings of Sheba and Seba offer gifts. 
-Psalms 72:10 also Isaiah 72:10 and Isaiah 60:6 

FULFILLMENT

"Then when Herod saw he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its environs, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the magi. - Matthew 2:16

What does that have to do with Jesus?



Everything.  The inhabitants of Seba and Sheba, the Sabeans, lived in Arabia.  Matthew Henry commentary states about Matt 2:1 and 11 that the wise men were "men of the east, who were noted for their soothsaying ( Isaiah 2: 6 ) Arabia is called the land of the east.  ( Genesis 25:6 ) and the Arabians called, Men of the east ( Judges 6:3 ) the presents they brought were the products of that country.  The gifts were also prophetic - Gold - Frankincense - Myrrh - but I'll leave that out for now.  It is well known Jesus received these gifts at his birth..  



PROPHECY

"The Lord says to my Lord: Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." 
-Psalm 110:1 

FULFILLMENT

"For today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. - Luke 2:11

What does that have to do with jesus?

The Lord said unto my Lord.  Jehovah said unto Adonai, or my Lord, the Lord of David, not in his merely personal capacity, but as a representative of Israel, literal and spiritual..  It is because he addresses Him as Israel's and the Church's Lord, that Christ in the three Gospels quotes it.  David calls Him Lord, not "His Lord.  See the scripture below for one example in Gospels....  

"He said to them, Then how does David in the Spirit call Him "Lord," saying, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my Right Hand, until I put thine enemies beneath thy feet. If David then calls Him, Lord, How is He his son? - Matthew 22: 42-45

PROPHECY

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. - Isaiah 7:14

FULFILLMENT

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, God with us. - Matthew 1: 23

Incorrect translation. It says a young woman, not a "virgin".



It is the incorrect translation because you are using the wrong definition.  There are two Hebrew words for virgin and you are using Hebrew word Bethulah when you should be using Hebrew word "Almah" instead.  This is the word used in Isaiah 7:14 - have your Rabbi look it up.  



PROPHECY

I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. - Deuteronomy 18:18

FULFILLMENT

"And the multitudes were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee. - Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16, John 4:19, 6:14, 7:40 

What is the link to jesus?


According to the Jewish scholar, Maimonides, in a letter to a community in Yemen, denounced a a purporter of the Messiahship by writing:  The Messiah will be a very great Prophet, greater than all the Prophets with the exception of Moses our teacher. His status will be higher than that of the Prophets and more honourable, Moses alone excepted.  And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lrd and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears.  We have Jesus speaking these very words about himself in the New Testament ( I posted that verse somewhere on this debate already ) and when comparing Christ to Moses we find this:



He was delivered from a violent death ( same as Moses )  He was willing to become a Redeemer of his people ( exodus 3: 10 ) He worked as a mediator between Yahweh and Israel ( exodus 32: 7 - 14 and New Testament identifies Christ as our mediator between G-d and man.  In Exodus 32: 7-14 we see Moses made interecession on behalf of sinful people.  In New Testament Christ is called our intercessor - seated at the right hand of the Father - according to my faith.  
PROPHECY

"The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, "Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." - Psalms 110:4

FULFILLMENT

"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. - Hebrews 3: 1

What does that have to do with jesus?
The oath of God didn't accompany the Aaronic priesthood, as it does the Melchizedek - like Priest who made not after the law of carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.  King David died, but this Melchizedek - like Priest lives forever.  Zech 6: 9-15 describes Messiah - He shall sit and rule upon his throne, and He shall be a Priest upon his throne.  According to NT scipture this High Priest is Jesus Christ.  




"So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee, just as he says also on another passage, Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedeck. - Hebrews 5: 5, 6 

PROPHECY

"For the Lord is our judge, The Lord is our lawgiver, The Lord is our king; He will save us......- Isaiah 33:22

FULFILLMENT

"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." - John 5: 30 also II Timonthy 4: 1
Once again, no link to jesus

It does when you have prophets in Torah saying these very same words, Jesus spoke. He is flawless picture of what they descibed him to be long before he appeared. He had no control over his place of birth, the time of his birth, the manner of his birth, his betrayal, his manner of death, the peoples reactions ( as predicted by the prophets and fulfilled in his life testimony & historical record ) he had no control over any of those things whatsoever so this too points to the obvious that he is the Messiah.  - Jeri



Christians would identify this as Jesus Christ but I do understand you do not recognize Isaiah as referring to Jesus Christ.  If you read Isaiah 53 you will clearly see Christ as the Messiah however.. it is unmistakable.. 



PROPHECY

"But as for Me, I have installed My King upon Zion, My holy mountain." - Psalms 2:6 , Zechariah 9:9, Jeremiah 23;5

FULFILLMENT

"And they put above His head the charge against Him which read, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews." - Matthew 27:37, Matthew 21:5, John 18:33-38 

No actual link to jesus

Qu
We can leave this one for now........
PROPHECY 

"And the Spirit of the Lord will rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord." - Isaiah 11:2 also Psalms 45:7, Isaiah 42:1,61:1,2

PROPHECY

"For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me. - Psalms 69:9

FULFILLMENT

"And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple.....and.....He said, Take these things away; stop making my Fathers house a house of merchandise. -John 2:15-17

** Comment in my own King James version Jesus said, Zeal for my fathers house consumes me. I prefer the King James but have been using NIV, NAS, for easy reading. 

** Comment from A. R. Fausset on this particular passage referring to Psalm 119: 139 - "For zeal of thine house has eaten me up - consumes me like a flame with its very intensity. Another outstanding interpretation of that particular scripture. 

This concludes the prophecies concerning the birth of Christ and now begin the prophecies concerning His Ministry and finally the prophecies that fulfill his death & resurrection. ( 3 parts - Birth - Ministry - Death & Resurrection ) I will continue that here but am taking a break so I will stop here. This is still under construction... sorry. I'll finish shortly... - Jeremiah [/QUOTE]

None of these prophesies are linked to Jesus other than being from Bethlehem.

It seems that there is a tendency that when the Torah mentions a:

lamb
rock
saviour
blood
son 
suffering

and almost anything else to somehow say it's about Jesus.


Second time trying to copy and paste.  It isn't working again.    Okay, Mike, I copied this to my email and your blue ink disappeared.  If I had not copied it I would have lost my reply again.  Don't know why this thread is only working on 3rd time posting.  Very odd.  - Jeri


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jeri,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
> 
> Genesis 1:26
> 
> 26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
> 
> Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
> 
> Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
> 
> Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
> 
> However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
> 
> 27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
> 
> It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
> 
> "Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
> 
> 
> 3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
> 
> 4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
> 
> 
> And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
> 
> "Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
> 
> The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
> 
> "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
> 
> G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
> 
> Another passage
> 
> I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
> 
> I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
> 
> I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
> 
> However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
> 
> "Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
> 
> The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
> 
> Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
> 
> The point of having the prophesis is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
> 
> In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
> 
> "In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
> 
> Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
> Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
> First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
> Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
> Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
> Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
> Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"?  The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
> 
> The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
> 
> I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
> 
> However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
> 
> And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
> 
> Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
> 
> As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
> 
> However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Mike!  I just answered every single one of your points and when I tried to post it, it said I didn't have permission! lol!  Oh my gosh.   That was an hours worth of writing and work - gone - I will write the reply and copy it for later on.  Sorry!   - Jeremiah
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe it was an act of G-D, just kidding.
> 
> Perhaps write it first in a word processing program, and then copy and paste.
> 
> I had to rewrite an email five times yesterday because of a server problem. It was very frustrating.
Click to expand...


Imagine writing out 2 or 3 hours worth of work and watching it disappear.  I copied your reply to my email and replied to it from there but the blue ink disappeared.  I saved the link to this thread in favorites because I cannot find it on the board to reply to it.  Maybe that is why it isn't working.  - Jeri


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Let me respond once more to the idea G-d alone created man.  I am in full agreement which is why I cannot accept that He was addressing angels in the Garden of Eden when He said in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image.  Only to follow it up with verse 27 in which God ALONE created.   First he speaks of Himself as US & OUR then he confirms he is One in the very next verse... 


 This confirms to me he had to be speaking to His Own Spirit --> Holy Spirit and His Own Word --> Jesus as this is part of the Godhead and not a lower being such as an angel.  Remember man was not made in the image of angels - Mike - the scriptures clearly signify the difference for us and so with that I cannot reconcile His statement here with being connected to any angelic being.   G-d could not tell Angels let us make man in OUR image because an angel isn't created in God's image.  They have wings.  G-d doesn't have wings.  Neither does man.   - Jeremiah


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

PROPHECIES & FULFILLMENTS - CHRIST MINISTRY ON EARTH & CRUCIFIXION - 

PROPHECY

"A voice is calling, Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for Our God.  - Isaiah 40; 3 , Malachi 3:1 - 

FULFILLMENT

......John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, Repent!  For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!  Matt 3:3 , John 1: 23, Luke 1: 17

PROPHECY

THEN THE EYES OF THE BLIND WILL BE OPENED, AND THE EARS OF THE DEAF WILL BE UNSTOPPED.  THEN THE LAME WILL LEAP LIKE A DEER, AND THE TONGUE OF THE DUMB WILL SHOUT FOR JOY.
- ISAIAH 35; 5 ALSO 32; 3,4 

"AND JESUS WAS GOING ABOUT ALL THE CITIES AND VILLAGES, TEACHING IN ALL THEIR SYNAGOGUES, AND PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, AND HEALING EVERY KIND OF DISEASE AND EVERY KIND OF ILLNESS.  - MATT 9:35

PROPHECY

TEACHER OF PARABLES: 

I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN A PARABLE; I WILL UTTER DARK SAYINGS OF OLD.... PSALMS 78;2

FULFILLMENT:

ALL THESE THINGS JESUS SPOKE TO THE MULTITUDES IN PARABLES, AND HE WAS NOT TALKING TO THEM WITHOUT A PARABLE......MATT 13:34

PROPHECY:

.......And the Lord whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple...... - Malachi 3:1 

FULFILLMENT: 

And Jesus entered the temple and cast out all those who were buying and selling in the temple - Matt 21:12

PROPHECY:

THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE.  - PSALM 118:22, ISAIAH 8:14, 28:15

FULFILLMENT:

THIS PRECIOUS VALUE,THEN, IS FOR YOU WHO BELIEVE, BUT FOR THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE, THE STONE WHCIH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNERSTONE. - 1 PETER 2: 7

JESUS IS THE CORNERSTONE ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANITY.  

PROPHECY: 

FOR THOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO SHEOL ( HELL ) NEITHER WILT THOU ALLOW THY HOLY ONE TO SEE THE PIT.  - PSALM 16: 10

FULFILLMENT

HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES ( HELL ) NOR DID HIS FLESH SUFFER DECAY.  - ACTS 13;33

PROPHECY OF ASCENSION:

THOU HAS ASCENDED ON HIGH.... PSALM 68; 18

FULFILLMENT

HE WAS LIFTED UP WHILE THEY WERE LOOKING ON, AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM OUT OF THEIR SIGHT.  - ACTS 1;9 

PROPHECY: 

THE LORD SAYS TO MY LORD:  SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR THY FEET.  PSALM 110;1

FULFILLMENT:

WHEN HE HAD MADE PURIFICATION OF SINS, HE SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH.  - HEBREWS 1:3

PROPHECY

BETRAYED BY A FRIEND: 

EVEN MY CLOSE FRIEND, IN WHOM I TRUSTED, WHO ATE MY BREAD, HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.  - PSALM 41;9

FULFILLMENT: 

.....JUDAS ISCARIOT, THE ONE WHO BETRAYED HIM.  - MATT 10;4

PROPHECY 
SOLD FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER: 

AND I SAID TO THEM, IF IT IS GOOD IN YOUR SIGHT, GIVE ME MY WAGES; BUT IF NOT, NEVER MIND!  SO THEY WEIGHED OUT THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER AS MY WAGES.  - ZECHARIAH 11:12

FULFILLMENT:

AND HE THREW THE PIECES OF SILVER INTO THE SANCTUARY AND DEPARTED..... - MATT. 27:5

PROPHECY
PRICE GIVEN FOR POTTERS FIELD

......SO I TOOK THE THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER AND THREW THEM TO THE POTTER IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD.  - ZECHARIAH 11:13

FULFILLMENT:

AND THEY COUNSELED TOGETHER AND WITH THE MONEY BOUGHT THE POTTER'S FIELD AS A BURIAL PLACE FOR STRANGERS.  - MATT 27; 7

IN THE PREVIOUS 4 PROPHECIES WE FIND BOTH THE PROPHECY AND FULFILLMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:   1. BETRAYED.  2. BY A FRIEND 3. FOR
 3O PIECES OF SILVER 4. OF SILVER  5. THROWN DOWN - NOT LAID DOWN 6. IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD  7.  MONEY USED TO BUY POTTERS FIELD

PROPHECY
FORSAKEN BY HIS DISCIPLES

......STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPARD THAT THE SHEEP MAY BE SCATTERED - ZECHARIAH 13:7

FULFILLMENT:  AND THEY ALL LEFT HIM AND FLED.  - MARK 14:50 

PROPHECY  

ACCUSED BY FALSE WITNESSES

MALICIOUS WITNESSES RISE UP; THEY ASK ME THINGS THAT I DO NOT KNOW.  -PSALM 35:11

FULFILLMENT

NOW THE CHIEF PRIESTS AND THE WHOLE COUNCIL KEPT TRYING TO OBTAIN FALSE TESTIMONY AGAINST JESUS, IN ORDER THAT THEY MIGHT PUT HIM TO DEATH, AND THEY DID NOT FIND IT, EVEN THOUGH MANY FALSE WITNESSES CAME FORWARD.  MATT 26: 59

PROPHECY

DUMB BEFORE HIS ACCUSERS

HE WAS OPPRESSED AND HE WAS AFFLICTED YET HE DID NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. - ISAIAH 53:7

FULFILLMENT:

AND WHILE HE WAS BEING ACCUSED BY THE CHIEF PRIESTS AND ELDERS, HE MADE NO ANSWER. 

- MATT 27:12

PROPHECY 

WOUNDED AND BRUISED

BUT HE WAS PIERCED FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, HE WAS CRUSHED FOR OUR INIQUITIES, THE CHASTENING FOR OUR WELL BEING FELL UPON HIM, AND BY HIS SCOURGING WE ARE HEALED.  -ISAIAH 53:5

FULFILLMENT

THEN HE RELEASED BARABBAS FOR THEM; BUT JESUS HE SCOURGED AND DELIVERED TO BE CRUCIFIED. 

PROPHECY  

SMITTEN AND SPIT UPON

I GAVE MY BACK TO THOSE WHO STRIKE ME, AND MY CHEEKS TO THOSE WHO PLUCK OUT THE BEARD, I DID NOT COVER MY FACE FROM HUMILIATION AND SPITTING.  - ISAIAH 50:6 

FULFILLMENT:

THEN THEY SPAT IN HIS FACE AND BEAT HIM WITH THEIR FISTS; AND OTHERS SLAPPED HIM.  - MATT 26;27

PROPHECY

.......THEY PIERCED MY HANDS AND MY FEET. - PSALMS 22: 16

FULFILLMENT

AND WHEN THEY CAME TO THE PLACE CALLED THE SKULL ( GOLGOTHA) THERE THEY CRUCIFIED HIM. 

LUKE 23:33

NOTE* JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED IN THE ROMAN MANNER THE HANDS AND FEET WERE PIERCED BY A LARGE DULL SPIKE WHICH ATTACHED THE BODY TO THE WOODEN CROSS. 

PROPHECY:

CRUCIFIED WITH THIEVES : 

BECAUSE HE POURED OUT HIMSELF TO DEATH AND WAS NUMBERED WITH THE TRANSGRESSORS..... ISAIAH 53:12

FULFILLMENT: 

AT THAT TIME TWO ROBBERS WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, ONE ON THE RIGHT AND ONE ON THE LEFT.  - MATT 27; 28

PROPHECY:

YET HE HIMSELF BORE THE SINS OF MANY, AND INTERCEDED FOR TRANSGRESSORS. - ISAIAH 53:12

FULFILLMENT:

FATHER, FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.  - LUKE 23: 34

PROPHECY

HATED WITHOUT CAUSE:

THOSE WHO HATE ME WITHOUT CAUSE ARE MORE THAN THE HAIRS ON MY HEAD..... - PSALM 69;4

FULFILLMENT

BUT THEY HAVE DONE THIS THAT THE WORD MAY BE FULFILLED THAT IS WRITTEN IN THEIR LAW, THEY HATED ME WITHOUT CAUSE. 
 - JOHN 15; 25

PROPHECY

THEY DIVIDED UP MY GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS.  - PSALM 22;18

FULFILLMENT

THE SOLDIERS THEREFORE, WHEN THEY HAD CRUCIFIED JESUS, TOOK HIS OUTER GARMENTS AND MADE 4 PARTS, A PART TO EVERY SOLDIER, AND ALSO THE TUNIC; NOW THE TUNIC WAS SEAMLESS WOVEN IN ONE PIECE. THEY SAID.......LET US NOT TEAR IT, BUT CAST LOTS FOR IT TO DECIDE WHOSE IT SHALL BE.  - John 19; 23 & 24

That is the conclusion. I'll end there unless you'd like me to put up some more.  I used caps for most as it is alot of typing. Sorry about that, Mike.  Anyhow, I thought you'd find these prophecies about the Messiah interesting in light of the ministry and crucifixion of Jesus.  I see the significance but cannot speak to whether others will or not.  - Jeremiah


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Mike, here is my response to your statement that Jesus could not be the Messiah because the exact opposite happened concerning the temple being destroyed.  Not at all.  It proves the Messiah has already come or the prophecy was not true. 

Concerning the destruction of the Temple

.....And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple........

Now consider this concerning Malachi 1:3 This verse along with 4 others ( Psalm 118;26 - Daniel 9:26 - Zechariah 11:13 and Haggai 2: 7-9 )  demands that the Messiah come while the temple at Jerusalem is STILL standing.  This is of great significance because the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and has not since been rebuilt.  

Read this.......then after sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary......

That is quite remarkable - Daniel 9: 26 as chronologically, the Messiah comes, the Messiah is cut off ( dies, rose from the grave & ascends to heaven seated at right hand of G-d ) 
Then comes the destruction of city Jerusalem and the sanctuary ( temple ) The temple and city were destroyed by Titus and his army in 70 AD therefore either Messiah has already come or this prophecy could not be true.   Something to consider. - Jeremiah


----------



## CMike

My responses in blue



Jeremiah said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jeri,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> Thank you, Mike.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> Genesis 1:26
> 
> 26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
> 
> Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri-
> This presents a problem for me because of the content of the scripture.  Let US make Man in OUR image.  Angels are not created in the image of G-d.   Not according to the scriptures that describe angelic beings.  Referring to Ezekiels visions and Isaiahs.   Not to mention that G-d doesn't share His Glory with anyone even angelic beings.  He said he wouldn't share His Glory and that we should not touch it.
> 
> Where exactly did G-D say he doesn't share his glory?
> --------------------------------
> Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
> ---------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> Yes, and I agree with the teachings of the Torah.  I've learned more from the Jews about the Torah than I ever could have from a Pastor.  There is a mystical element to the Torah in my opinion the book is Divine.  It is the Holy Word of G-d.  But G-d sharing credit for the creation of man with angels?  I think I find it easier to believe he was conversing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Based on the Torah, G-D said that there is only him. Therefore, based on what G-D said there is no jesus or holy separate. G-D said he is one.
> --------------------------------------
> Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
> ---------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> You don't have to convince me, Mike!  I am a prospector who believes in the beauty of networking and credit sharing!  It is a good mitzvah. Is that the right word?  Good deed?
> 
> However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
> -------------------------------
> reply from Jeri
> Now this is where I'm lost, Mike.
> 
> 
> If he is speaking to angels as you say and he said Let US create man in Our image then he is inviting someone to assist him in Creating mankind.  I would be more persuaded to believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit he was speaking to.
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> 27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
> 
> It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
> 
> "Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
> 
> 
> 3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
> 
> 4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
> 
> 
> And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
> -----------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> I don't.  God SPOKE - His creative power was in the WORD he SPOKE.  It aligns perfectly with John Chapter one .......In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.   All things were created by Him and nothing was made without Him.  This is referring to Jesus Christ.  Known as the Word.
> 
> If you speak is what you are saying a separate entity?
> 
> I do not get the creation regarding wha he says.
> -------------------------------------------
> "Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
> 
> But G-D said that he wasn't in parts. He said he was one.
> 
> The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
> 
> "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
> 
> G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Jeremiah replies:
> True and we don't walk around saying I am a spirit who sent my body to the store today because my Soul commanded it to.  We are a trichotomy but we do not refer to ourselves in three parts and neither does G-d.  Nevertheless, we are body, spirit and soul and as a Christian I believe God is G-d the Father ( you are his first children ) G-d the Son - Jesus - G-d the Holy Spirit - the distinctive roles, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day..  then Jesus comes to earth and dwells among us, then Jesus ascends to heaven but what does he promise first?  The Holy Spirit.  He is sending the Comforter.  This is the Spirit of God that dwells within the believers on the earth today.  This is why Christians refer to their bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit.   This is why we also say to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.  It is our spirit and soul that will be present before G-d.  Not our body that will return to the dust.
> 
> 
> Jesus said that he prayed to god, and that you have go through him to get to god. He mad himslf a seperate entity.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Another passage
> 
> I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
> 
> I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
> --------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> And I would agree with every single one of them.   G-d is One.  There is only One G-d.
> --------------------------------
> I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
> 
> They are still seperate entities.
> ---------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> I believe Jesus said it best when he prayed that G-d would make them One even as He and the Father were One.  One as in Unity.  In Union with each other.
> 
> We can say that as a nation we are all one. However, we are still made up of about three hundred million entities.
> -------------------------------------
> However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
> -------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> That is correct.  When I pray to G-d of Israel I pray in the name of Jesus Christ but I am addressing G-d of Israel.  My heavenly Father.  The Holy Spirit helps me to pray because on my own I would not know what to pray for.  He is my guide on getting the Mind of G-d on a matter so to speak.  In my faith of Christianity.
> 
> You just said yourself that you pray in the nameof jesus, but to G-D. Therefore, 1+1=2
> ---------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> "Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
> 
> The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
> 
> Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
> ----------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> I've put the first set up of the prophecies of his birth but I have yet to post the prophecies concerning his ministry on earth or his death and resurrection.  You may find some New Testament scriptures to be vague and not accept that as validation of a fulfillment of prophecy. That is fine.  I am just offering what I think might give reason to investigate it further.  Of course, there is the matter of the New Testament and verifying it as a valid source to base history from, etc.  I have thought about that too.
> 
> It is true. Posting them from the NT really wouldn't mean much to me.
> 
> The point of having the prophesy is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
> 
> In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
> ------------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> Hold that thought.  I will share something later about exactly what Jesus did prophesy concerning the temple.
> 
> Will do.
> 
> "In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
> 
> Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
> Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
> First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
> Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
> Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
> Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
> Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"?  The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> Yes, my point is that Jesus death fulfills the meaning of the Passover - the blood of the lamb that was put over the doorposts in Goshen when Pharoah was warned that the angel of death would be coming - the Jews were protected from death by the blood of the Lamb.
> 
> The blood of the lamb didn't protect the jews. It was G-D that protected the jew.
> 
> The point of putting the blood on the posts was for it to be a test. That the jews who would believe in G-D as their savior would be protected.
> 
> It didn't necessarily have to be blood. G-d could have made any test. It could be to put two Xs together. The blood itself didn't mean anything. It was just the test that G-D gave.
> 
> It signifies your eternal lives Christ paid for at the Cross.  You couldn't keep the law so he did it for you.
> Why do you think jews can't keep the law.
> 
> Humans aren't perfect. G-D doesn't expect the jews to keep all the laws perfectly. He designed us. After our death our good deeds vs or bad deeds are weighed and G-D decides where to put us in the World to Come.
> 
> 
> At the cross. It's finished.  ( fulfilled)  According to my intepretation of scripture - the Passover would signify the perfect lamb of God who was slain to take away the sins of the world.  The remission of sins.  He represents the Atonement in that he is the scapegoat - he hung on that cross in place of Barrabus.  The peoples will. .. with that Pilates wife who had a bad dream and had warned him to have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus  so he said, His blood be upon your hands.   He wanted no part of it as he feared his wifes dream.  There is much more as I can easily identify Christ in every single book of the Torah - he is depicted - but that would depend on how much time you've got.  jk.  note**  Jesus had to go to the cross.  Without the cross there wouldn't have been an atonement for us according to my faith.
> 
> I you ever read Leviticus you will see that G-D was a micromanager.
> 
> He gave the exact measurements of how the Mishkan, the holy area where sacrifices were to be made was to be created.
> 
> He said exactly what the priests should be wearing. G-D even says where the ashes from the sacrifices should go.
> 
> Don't you think that if G-d truely created this "son" and the other part of the christian theology we would have spelled it out clearly in the Torah.
> 
> Why wouldn't we? G-D went to great lengths to go into small detail of what he expected from the jewish people.
> -------------------------------------------------
> The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
> -----------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Yes, I know, they are a picture of Jesus Christ and are to be remembered  ( I'm speaking from my own pov here, Mike, not a Jewish pov )
> 
> I know, but I am just saying what the Day of Attonement is.
> 
> I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Yes, I know you are expecting your Messiah.  Many preparations are under way.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Well read some of the fulfillments to prophecy and see if it looks familiar anyhow.   You might recognize something.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> Not one jot or one tittle!  How well I know!
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
> ---------------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri :  I got off track with that and probably should not have put it in.  Sorry.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> If we add to the Gospel we will have the plagues mentioned in the book added to us and if we take away from the Gospel we will lose our salvation.  That's separation from G-d eternally.  Enough to make me shake in my boots.
> 
> Then you understand why jews can't add the NT to the Torah?
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------
Click to expand...


----------



## CMike

The way you pick a color is click on the "A" to the right of sizes. You will see a drop down box of colors. Pick one.

Made sure what you are writing is between

       Text here                                        [/COLOR ]

Text here


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jeri,
> 
> 
> I do not believe for a split second G-d would ever throw a Jewish person who loves him into hell for obeying His commands to not add to or take away from His Book.  Your obedience is an act of true worship.  G-d is not impressed with loud songs and feigned praise from false lips.  He is looking to be worshiped in spirit and in truth and your desire to honor G-d by only accepting His Word as you have received it is a sign of it, Mike.  You have my respect. - Jeremiah  note to Mike**  I am not used to using this quote / response feature and most of your replies are in the box above.  Sorry about that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate your kind word. You are a credit to your religion.
> 
> I truely believe that if we all kept to the tenets of our religion the world would be a much better place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know if I'm a credit to it because my fellow christians preach to the Jews while I do not.  I see the Jewish people as already completed - like the end from the beginning if that makes any sense.  I find it impossible to see you any other way.  Zechariah said all Israel shall be saved.  I find that prophecy settles the matter.  If I am wrong I don't believe G-d will hold it against me because He knows my heart.  Jesus said himself that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were in heaven.  What am I to make of that?  - Jeri
Click to expand...


----------



## CMike

I didn't get to all your points. I will though. Time.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> My responses in blue
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jeri,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> Thank you, Mike.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> Genesis 1:26
> 
> 26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
> 
> Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri-
> This presents a problem for me because of the content of the scripture.  Let US make Man in OUR image.  Angels are not created in the image of G-d.   Not according to the scriptures that describe angelic beings.  Referring to Ezekiels visions and Isaiahs.   Not to mention that G-d doesn't share His Glory with anyone even angelic beings.  He said he wouldn't share His Glory and that we should not touch it.
> 
> Where exactly did G-D say he doesn't share his glory?
> --------------------------------
> Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
> ---------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> Yes, and I agree with the teachings of the Torah.  I've learned more from the Jews about the Torah than I ever could have from a Pastor.  There is a mystical element to the Torah in my opinion the book is Divine.  It is the Holy Word of G-d.  But G-d sharing credit for the creation of man with angels?  I think I find it easier to believe he was conversing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Based on the Torah, G-D said that there is only him. Therefore, based on what G-D said there is no jesus or holy separate. G-D said he is one.
> --------------------------------------
> Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
> ---------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> You don't have to convince me, Mike!  I am a prospector who believes in the beauty of networking and credit sharing!  It is a good mitzvah. Is that the right word?  Good deed?
> 
> However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
> -------------------------------
> reply from Jeri
> Now this is where I'm lost, Mike.
> 
> 
> If he is speaking to angels as you say and he said Let US create man in Our image then he is inviting someone to assist him in Creating mankind.  I would be more persuaded to believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit he was speaking to.
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> 27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
> 
> 
> 
> It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
> 
> Jeri replies:  Then who is US and OUR in verse 26?
> 
> "Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
> 
> 
> 3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
> 
> 4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
> 
> 
> And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
> -----------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> I don't.  God SPOKE - His creative power was in the WORD he SPOKE.  It aligns perfectly with John Chapter one .......In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.   All things were created by Him and nothing was made without Him.  This is referring to Jesus Christ.  Known as the Word.
> 
> If you speak is what you are saying a separate entity?
> 
> No, which is why Gods Word is living and a part of Him.  We refer to the Word as Jesus but you do not. ( as a Jewish person )
> 
> I do not get the creation regarding wha he says.
> 
> The Word Spoken was the Order so to speak and the power behind the creation was the Holy Spirit.
> -------------------------------------------
> "Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
> 
> But G-D said that he wasn't in parts. He said he was one.
> 
> The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
> 
> "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
> 
> G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Jeremiah replies:
> True and we don't walk around saying I am a spirit who sent my body to the store today because my Soul commanded it to.  We are a trichotomy but we do not refer to ourselves in three parts and neither does G-d.  Nevertheless, we are body, spirit and soul and as a Christian I believe God is G-d the Father ( you are his first children ) G-d the Son - Jesus - G-d the Holy Spirit - the distinctive roles, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day..  then Jesus comes to earth and dwells among us, then Jesus ascends to heaven but what does he promise first?  The Holy Spirit.  He is sending the Comforter.  This is the Spirit of God that dwells within the believers on the earth today.  This is why Christians refer to their bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit.   This is why we also say to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.  It is our spirit and soul that will be present before G-d.  Not our body that will return to the dust.
> 
> 
> Jesus said that he prayed to god, and that you have go through him to get to god. He mad himslf a seperate entity.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you, He said He was the Son of God.
> Another passage
> 
> I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
> 
> I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
> --------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> And I would agree with every single one of them.   G-d is One.  There is only One G-d.
> --------------------------------
> I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
> 
> They are still seperate entities.
> 
> No more than you and I having a makeup of spirit - body - soul - though.  We are each counted as one.  Speaking of which when you married your wife didn't you become One with her according to the Bible?  One Flesh?  The new testament teaches that the marriage between man and woman is representation of marriage of Christ to the Church.
> ---------------------------------
> Jeri replies:
> I believe Jesus said it best when he prayed that G-d would make them One even as He and the Father were One.  One as in Unity.  In Union with each other.
> 
> We can say that as a nation we are all one. However, we are still made up of about three hundred million entities.
> 
> Jeri replies:  true
> -------------------------------------
> However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
> -------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> That is correct.  When I pray to G-d of Israel I pray in the name of Jesus Christ but I am addressing G-d of Israel.  My heavenly Father.  The Holy Spirit helps me to pray because on my own I would not know what to pray for.  He is my guide on getting the Mind of G-d on a matter so to speak.  In my faith of Christianity.
> 
> You just said yourself that you pray in the nameof jesus, but to G-D. Therefore, 1+1=2
> ---------------------------------
> Yes, because I do.  I pray to G-d of Israel in Jesus name.  That is how I've always prayed.
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> "Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
> 
> The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
> 
> Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
> ----------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> I've put the first set up of the prophecies of his birth but I have yet to post the prophecies concerning his ministry on earth or his death and resurrection.  You may find some New Testament scriptures to be vague and not accept that as validation of a fulfillment of prophecy. That is fine.  I am just offering what I think might give reason to investigate it further.  Of course, there is the matter of the New Testament and verifying it as a valid source to base history from, etc.  I have thought about that too.
> 
> It is true. Posting them from the NT really wouldn't mean much to me.
> That is what I was afraid of.
> 
> The point of having the prophesy is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
> 
> In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
> ------------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> Hold that thought.  I will share something later about exactly what Jesus did prophesy concerning the temple.
> 
> Will do.
> 
> I posted answer to that one on separate post, Mike.
> 
> "In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
> 
> Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
> Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
> First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
> Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
> Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
> Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
> Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"?  The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri:
> 
> Yes, my point is that Jesus death fulfills the meaning of the Passover - the blood of the lamb that was put over the doorposts in Goshen when Pharoah was warned that the angel of death would be coming - the Jews were protected from death by the blood of the Lamb.
> 
> The blood of the lamb didn't protect the jews. It was G-D that protected the jew.
> Jeri replied:
> Wrong. If they stepped over that threshold they were out from under that protection of the blood of the lamb over the door post.  The angel of death saw that blood over the doorpost and past over them and they lived.  Had they crossed over that threshold it would have been a different story.  Blood or no blood.  A good lesson for Christians as well.
> 
> The point of putting the blood on the posts was for it to be a test. That the jews who would believe in G-D as their savior would be protected.
> Jeri replied:
> A test of obedience?  Yes.  And if they had not have done it they would have perished.  If they had crossed over the threshold they would have  perished.  Their obedience in staying inside and putting the blood of the lamb over the doop post is what kept them, Mike.
> 
> It didn't necessarily have to be blood. G-d could have made any test. It could be to put two Xs together. The blood itself didn't mean anything. It was just the test that G-D gave.
> 
> It signifies your eternal lives Christ paid for at the Cross.  You couldn't keep the law so he did it for you.
> Why do you think jews can't keep the law.
> Jeri replies:
> Because if you broke one tiny piece of it once it was as if the entire thing had been broken.  You had to keep it perfectly.   Show me where you guys did that.
> 
> Humans aren't perfect. G-D doesn't expect the jews to keep all the laws perfectly. He designed us. After our death our good deeds vs or bad deeds are weighed and G-D decides where to put us in the World to Come.
> reply from Jeri -
> It isn't by works that your salvation has been won but by the blood of Christ and his work on the cross.  You cannot earn your salvation, it is what Christ has done, not what you  have done.  He said it was finished because at the cross the law was fulfilled through him.  You're free.
> 
> Just because you do not recognize Jesus as your Messiah does not mean G-d doesn't have His hand on your life. Of course he does.  Would G-d hold against you something that you have yet to see?  This is how I see you and your people, Mike.  At the feast of all feasts with your elder brother, Jesus, that perhaps now you do not recognize but like Josephs brothers - once he removes the veil and lets you see it is him?  You will weep on each others shoulders and embrace and celebrate at that feast that he prepared for you
> 
> - yet Josephs Brothers could not know that until Joseph chose to reveal himself to his Jewish brothers.  This is how it is with Jesus and why I know you cannot be held responsible for something you do not even know to be true.  He is like Joseph - reuniting with his brothers - all of it being the will of G-d and the plan of G-d so no reason for Joseph's brothers to feel condemned over it.  It is a beautiful picture of Christ to me with his brethren once he reveals himself to them.     - Jeri
> 
> 
> At the cross. It's finished.  ( fulfilled)  According to my intepretation of scripture - the Passover would signify the perfect lamb of God who was slain to take away the sins of the world.  The remission of sins.  He represents the Atonement in that he is the scapegoat - he hung on that cross in place of Barrabus.  The peoples will. .. with that Pilates wife who had a bad dream and had warned him to have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus  so he said, His blood be upon your hands.   He wanted no part of it as he feared his wifes dream.  There is much more as I can easily identify Christ in every single book of the Torah - he is depicted - but that would depend on how much time you've got.  jk.  note**  Jesus had to go to the cross.  Without the cross there wouldn't have been an atonement for us according to my faith.
> 
> I you ever read Leviticus you will see that G-D was a micromanager.
> 
> Still is!
> 
> He gave the exact measurements of how the Mishkan, the holy area where sacrifices were to be made was to be created.
> 
> He said exactly what the priests should be wearing. G-D even says where the ashes from the sacrifices should go.
> 
> Don't you think that if G-d truely created this "son" and the other part of the christian theology we would have spelled it out clearly in the Torah.
> 
> Why wouldn't we? G-D went to great lengths to go into small detail of what he expected from the jewish people.
> -------------------------------------------------
> Jeri says:
> I would tell you its in the second half of the bible but I don't want to aggravate you.  lol...
> The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
> -----------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Yes, I know, they are a picture of Jesus Christ and are to be remembered  ( I'm speaking from my own pov here, Mike, not a Jewish pov )
> 
> I know, but I am just saying what the Day of Attonement is.
> 
> I understand.
> 
> I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Yes, I know you are expecting your Messiah.  Many preparations are under way.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Jeri replies:  Well read some of the fulfillments to prophecy and see if it looks familiar anyhow.   You might recognize something.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> Not one jot or one tittle!  How well I know!
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
> ---------------------------------------------------
> reply from Jeri :  I got off track with that and probably should not have put it in.  Sorry.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> If we add to the Gospel we will have the plagues mentioned in the book added to us and if we take away from the Gospel we will lose our salvation.  That's separation from G-d eternally.  Enough to make me shake in my boots.
> 
> Then you understand why jews can't add the NT to the Torah?
> 
> Yes, I do.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

In concluding my part of presentation, Mike, I feel we are both winners.   We both believe in G-d of Israel although we differ on who the Messiah is.  We are both blessed because we support Israel and believe in her right to exist like any other nation in the world.  We are both winners in my book.  

Note*  I cannot concede that there isn't any evidence of Jesus in prophecy because I see Him throughout as I have shared in this debate.  However, I fully respect that you, Mike, do not see it and I believe you are sincere in your stating that.  - Jeremiah


----------



## CMike

Quote: Originally Posted by CMike  
Hi Jeri,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

-------------------------------------
Thank you, Mike. 

-------------------------------------

Genesis 1:26

26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.

-------------------------------------
reply from Jeri- 
This presents a problem for me because of the content of the scripture. Let US make Man in OUR image. Angels are not created in the image of G-d. Not according to the scriptures that describe angelic beings. Referring to Ezekiels visions and Isaiahs. Not to mention that G-d doesn't share His Glory with anyone even angelic beings. He said he wouldn't share His Glory and that we should not touch it. 

Where exactly did G-D say he doesn't share his glory? 
--------------------------------
Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
---------------------------------
reply from Jeri: 
Yes, and I agree with the teachings of the Torah. I've learned more from the Jews about the Torah than I ever could have from a Pastor. There is a mystical element to the Torah in my opinion the book is Divine. It is the Holy Word of G-d. But G-d sharing credit for the creation of man with angels? I think I find it easier to believe he was conversing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. 

Based on the Torah, G-D said that there is only him. Therefore, based on what G-D said there is no jesus or holy separate. G-D said he is one.
--------------------------------------
Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
---------------------------------------
reply from Jeri: 

You don't have to convince me, Mike! I am a prospector who believes in the beauty of networking and credit sharing! It is a good mitzvah. Is that the right word? Good deed? 

However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
-------------------------------
reply from Jeri
Now this is where I'm lost, Mike. 


If he is speaking to angels as you say and he said Let US create man in Our image then he is inviting someone to assist him in Creating mankind. I would be more persuaded to believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit he was speaking to. 
--------------------------------------------------

27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.



It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.

Jeri replies: Then who is US and OUR in verse 26?

The angels 

"Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." 


3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.


And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
-----------------------------------
Jeri replies: 
I don't. God SPOKE - His creative power was in the WORD he SPOKE. It aligns perfectly with John Chapter one .......In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were created by Him and nothing was made without Him. This is referring to Jesus Christ. Known as the Word.

If you speak is what you are saying a separate entity?

No, which is why Gods Word is living and a part of Him. We refer to the Word as Jesus but you do not. ( as a Jewish person ) 

No I don't. If you are speaking, do the words that come out of your mouth become a seperate entity? 

Speaking was the way G-D conveyed the message.

I do not get the creation regarding wha he says. 

The Word Spoken was the Order so to speak and the power behind the creation was the Holy Spirit. 
-------------------------------------------
"Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"

However, the very next sentence said G-D created man. 

But G-D said that he wasn't in parts. He said he was one.

The problem with that is that G-D disagrees. He made it pretty clear that it was only him, didn't he in this sentence?

"Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "

G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
-----------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah replies: 
True and we don't walk around saying I am a spirit who sent my body to the store today because my Soul commanded it to. We are a trichotomy but we do not refer to ourselves in three parts and neither does G-d. Nevertheless, we are body, spirit and soul and as a Christian I believe God is G-d the Father ( you are his first children ) G-d the Son - Jesus - G-d the Holy Spirit - the distinctive roles, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day.. then Jesus comes to earth and dwells among us, then Jesus ascends to heaven but what does he promise first? The Holy Spirit. He is sending the Comforter. This is the Spirit of God that dwells within the believers on the earth today. This is why Christians refer to their bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit. This is why we also say to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. It is our spirit and soul that will be present before G-d. Not our body that will return to the dust. 

I will say that I understand your beliefs. But based on my religion I disagree with them.

Jesus said that he prayed to god, and that you have go through him to get to god. He made himself a seperate entity.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you, He said He was the Son of God. 
Another passage

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
--------------------------------
Jeri replies: 
And I would agree with every single one of them. G-d is One. There is only One G-d. 
--------------------------------
I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.

They are still seperate entities.

No more than you and I having a makeup of spirit - body - soul - though. We are each counted as one. Speaking of which when you married your wife didn't you become One with her according to the Bible? One Flesh? The new testament teaches that the marriage between man and woman is representation of marriage of Christ to the Church.

However, my body doesn't pray to my soul. My soul doesn't pray to my spirit. Jesus said he prayed to god, acknowledging he is a seperate entity.
---------------------------------
Jeri replies: 
I believe Jesus said it best when he prayed that G-d would make them One even as He and the Father were One. One as in Unity. In Union with each other. 

We can say that as a nation we are all one. However, we are still made up of about three hundred million entities. 

Jeri replies: true
-------------------------------------
However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
-------------------------------------
reply from Jeri: 

That is correct. When I pray to G-d of Israel I pray in the name of Jesus Christ but I am addressing G-d of Israel. My heavenly Father. The Holy Spirit helps me to pray because on my own I would not know what to pray for. He is my guide on getting the Mind of G-d on a matter so to speak. In my faith of Christianity.

You just said yourself that you pray in the nameof jesus, but to G-D. Therefore, 1+1=2
---------------------------------
Yes, because I do. I pray to G-d of Israel in Jesus name. That is how I've always prayed.
reply from Jeri: 

"Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."

The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem. 

Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
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reply from Jeri:
I've put the first set up of the prophecies of his birth but I have yet to post the prophecies concerning his ministry on earth or his death and resurrection. You may find some New Testament scriptures to be vague and not accept that as validation of a fulfillment of prophecy. That is fine. I am just offering what I think might give reason to investigate it further. Of course, there is the matter of the New Testament and verifying it as a valid source to base history from, etc. I have thought about that too. 

The prophesies of his birth are based on incorrect translations. The messiah will be born from a young woman, not a virgin based on the actual text.

You are right I don't consider the NT interpretation to be valid.

It is true. Posting them from the NT really wouldn't mean much to me.
That is what I was afraid of. 

The point of having the prophesy is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.

In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
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reply from Jeri: 
Hold that thought. I will share something later about exactly what Jesus did prophesy concerning the temple. 

Will do.

I posted answer to that one on separate post, Mike. 

"In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now: 

Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 ) 
First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 ) 
Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 ) 
Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 ) 
Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 ) 
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "

I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"? The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.

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reply from Jeri: 

Yes, my point is that Jesus death fulfills the meaning of the Passover - the blood of the lamb that was put over the doorposts in Goshen when Pharoah was warned that the angel of death would be coming - the Jews were protected from death by the blood of the Lamb.

The blood of the lamb didn't protect the jews. It was G-D that protected the jew. 
Jeri replied: 
Wrong. If they stepped over that threshold they were out from under that protection of the blood of the lamb over the door post. The angel of death saw that blood over the doorpost and past over them and they lived. Had they crossed over that threshold it would have been a different story. Blood or no blood. A good lesson for Christians as well. 

The point of putting the blood on the posts was for it to be a test. That the jews who would believe in G-D as their savior would be protected.
Jeri replied: 
A test of obedience? Yes. And if they had not have done it they would have perished. If they had crossed over the threshold they would have perished. Their obedience in staying inside and putting the blood of the lamb over the doop post is what kept them, Mike.

Actually it's doing what G-D told them to do that saved them. 

It didn't necessarily have to be blood. G-d could have made any test. It could be to put two Xs together. The blood itself didn't mean anything. It was just the test that G-D gave.

It signifies your eternal lives Christ paid for at the Cross. You couldn't keep the law so he did it for you.
Why do you think jews can't keep the law.
Jeri replies: 
Because if you broke one tiny piece of it once it was as if the entire thing had been broken. You had to keep it perfectly. Show me where you guys did that. 

Says who? There is nothing in the Torah that says you have to keep the law perfectly.

Look at it like American law. No one keep the law 100%. Almost everyone has had a traffic ticket of some sort. However, you pay the consequence and you move on.

Because you get one ticket you don't get sentence to death.

It's the same with jewish law. G-D knows we are human. Why would he expect us to keep every law perfectly or be damned to hell? 

There is nothing in the Torah that says that.




Humans aren't perfect. G-D doesn't expect the jews to keep all the laws perfectly. He designed us. After our death our good deeds vs or bad deeds are weighed and G-D decides where to put us in the World to Come.
reply from Jeri - 
It isn't by works that your salvation has been won but by the blood of Christ and his work on the cross. You cannot earn your salvation, it is what Christ has done, not what you have done. He said it was finished because at the cross the law was fulfilled through him. You're free. 

He may have said it. But as jews we can not accept that. We need to atone for our own sins.

What jesus may or may not have done has nothing to do with our own sins.

We alone are responsible for attoning for our sins.

Free from what? It's the resistance of doing sins that brings us closer to G-D. I don't want to be free. If I was I would be a robot without free will.

Just because you do not recognize Jesus as your Messiah does not mean G-d doesn't have His hand on your life. Of course he does. Would G-d hold against you something that you have yet to see? This is how I see you and your people, Mike. At the feast of all feasts with your elder brother, Jesus, that perhaps now you do not recognize but like Josephs brothers - once he removes the veil and lets you see it is him? You will weep on each others shoulders and embrace and celebrate at that feast that he prepared for you

I am sorry, but we won't. We are commanded to keep the laws as G-D gave them in the Torah. Once again, we are not allowed to add nor subtract from them.

In fact, Jews were particularly harshly warned to not go after foreign gods. To jews that is what jesus is. 

If G-D wanted us to worship jesus, he would have clearly said so.

G-D was a micromanager. He went into extreme details of what he required jews to do.

- yet Josephs Brothers could not know that until Joseph chose to reveal himself to his Jewish brothers. This is how it is with Jesus and why I know you cannot be held responsible for something you do not even know to be true. He is like Joseph - reuniting with his brothers - all of it being the will of G-d and the plan of G-d so no reason for Joseph's brothers to feel condemned over it. It is a beautiful picture of Christ to me with his brethren once he reveals himself to them. - Jeri

Not for us. G-D told us not to worship anyone foreign to us.

Jesus is extremely foreign.

To jews there is not difference between worshipping jesus and worshipping a golden calf.

It's the same principles.


At the cross. It's finished. ( fulfilled) According to my intepretation of scripture - the Passover would signify the perfect lamb of God who was slain to take away the sins of the world. The remission of sins. He represents the Atonement in that he is the scapegoat - he hung on that cross in place of Barrabus. The peoples will. .. with that Pilates wife who had a bad dream and had warned him to have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus so he said, His blood be upon your hands. He wanted no part of it as he feared his wifes dream. There is much more as I can easily identify Christ in every single book of the Torah - he is depicted - but that would depend on how much time you've got. jk. note** Jesus had to go to the cross. Without the cross there wouldn't have been an atonement for us according to my faith. 

I you ever read Leviticus you will see that G-D was a micromanager.

Still is! 

He gave the exact measurements of how the Mishkan, the holy area where sacrifices were to be made was to be created.

He said exactly what the priests should be wearing. G-D even says where the ashes from the sacrifices should go.

Don't you think that if G-d truely created this "son" and the other part of the christian theology we would have spelled it out clearly in the Torah.

Why wouldn't we? G-D went to great lengths to go into small detail of what he expected from the jewish people.
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Jeri says: 
I would tell you its in the second half of the bible but I don't want to aggravate you. lol..

There is no second half for jews. G-D said not add nor subtract. Adding another bible would be adding.
. 
The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose. 
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Jeri replies: Yes, I know, they are a picture of Jesus Christ and are to be remembered ( I'm speaking from my own pov here, Mike, not a Jewish pov ) 

I know, but I am just saying what the Day of Attonement is.

I understand. 

I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here. 

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Jeri replies: Yes, I know you are expecting your Messiah. Many preparations are under way. 
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However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
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Jeri replies: Well read some of the fulfillments to prophecy and see if it looks familiar anyhow. You might recognize something.

When the messiah comes they all will be fufilled.

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And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
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Not one jot or one tittle! How well I know! 

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Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
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reply from Jeri : I got off track with that and probably should not have put it in. Sorry.
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## Book of Jeremiah

In response to your responses I say you win, Mike.   I cannot use the New Testament fairly when you cannot accept that as a valid source.   I could bring up historical accounts - written records from those days about Jesus but again it would be hearsay.  I cannot judge my own work but feel you are obeying your own faith in Judaism by not bringing into account the New Testament as you do not accept it.

John 7:17 Jesus explained to people that if they wanted to know whether he was sent by G-d to just be willing to accept what they find out.   I find that is a sound idea for the individual who does not know.  Of any race, creed, etc.  

I enjoyed the discussion but do not think anything I would offer further would add anything.  I think I will let what I have written speak for itself and call you the winner for inviting someone to discuss the subject!   Thank you, Mike!  
 - Jeri


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## CMike

There is no winning.

As a jew you didn't change my opinion, as a christian I didn't change yours.

I think it was more of an intellectual execise.


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## Book of Jeremiah

CMike said:


> There is no winning.
> 
> As a jew you didn't change my opinion, as a christian I didn't change yours.
> 
> I think it was more of an intellectual execise.



Agreed!  

See you on the Israel and Palestine boards!  - Jeri


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## CMike

Great discussion.

Thank you.


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## Book of Jeremiah

I agree.  Thank you.


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