# Ag Secretary: "NO CORN FOR YOU!"



## Mr. H. (Feb 24, 2011)

*U.S. crop boom not enough to rebuild thin supplies*

So... here we have "razor thin" grain inventories, prices for food are rising, and agriculture says that diverting 36% of the entire corn harvest to ethanol production _isn't enough_? 

_Despite criticism that using food for fuel was driving up prices and contributing to thin stockpiles, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack told the conference *the government had no intention of scaling back on ethanol. *

"There is no reason for us to take the foot off the gas," Vilsack told the conference. "This is a great opportunity for us because we can do it all, make no mistake about it." _

THE CORN NAZI HAS SPOKEN!


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## Annie (Feb 24, 2011)

It's wrong, in every sense. ethanol doesn't help the environment, in fact it uses more energy than it saves. The government knows it and has for years, going back at least to Clinton. Considering the world economy, it's just worse now:

The Looming Food Crisis

Just the preview and title, rest at link:



> In wealthy nations as well as in poor ones, consumers express alarm about fast-rising food prices, and their governments are well aware that shortages can quickly translate into unrest and political crisis. Complaints today may be mild compared with those looming ahead unless governments take steps to curb policies that encourage speculation, warns economist David Dapice. Subsidies that divert corn to ethanol fuel reduce food supplies and add to price rise. Despite extreme weather events in some exporting nations, per-capita food production has climbed in recent years, he explains, adding that low interest rates encourage speculation, stockpiling and waste. Price hikes are less noticeable for wealthiest consumers whose products carry high marketing and packaging costs, but for the poor its a question of survival. Research and technology advances in the agriculture industry may sustain a growing population for only so long. Failure to address the needs of the poor could risk security for all.  YaleGlobal
> 
> 
> The Looming Food Crisis
> ...


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## KissMy (Feb 24, 2011)

The corn going to the ethanol plants comes out as corn protein called DDGs (Distiller Dried Grains). It feeds the animals that used to eat the corn & turn it into methane farts that was 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than CO2.

The reason prices are high is because China is now buying most of our Corn & DDGs. Our US Dollar is so weak it makes our Corn & DDGs cheap to foreigners. Ben Bernanke & his printing press will make the commodity prices based on US Dollars keep on rising.

When our government prints money it takes almost 2 years to cause inflation. So they print & later when inflation shows up they blame shortages to deflect criticism. This is the same old scam governments have been pulling on it's citizens for ever. Just wait, all kinds of shortages are about to show up. Ask yourself - *Why is Cotton 3 times higher than 2 years ago? Oil? Wheat? Copper?*


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## Mr. H. (Feb 24, 2011)

Why is there a tariff on ethanol imported by the U.S.? To protect Big Ag's monopoly?

And if that isn't enough, Big Ag is dumping yet more corn onto Mexican markets and squeezing out local farmers.


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## KissMy (Feb 24, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> Why is there a tariff on ethanol imported by the U.S.? To protect Big Ag's monopoly?
> 
> And if that isn't enough, Big Ag is dumping yet more corn onto Mexican markets and squeezing out local farmers.



Grain is getting dumped on many foreign countries because it is cheap for them to buy it up due to our weak ass US dollar. It makes our grains cheaper than theirs. Get used to high food, energy, clothing & copper wire prices here for the same reason.


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## percysunshine (Feb 24, 2011)

Burning food is one of those events in the history of the universe which qualifies as a 'bad idea'.


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## whitehall (Feb 24, 2011)

"Never let a crisis go to waste" Rahm Emanuel. Do the g-damned math. Oil is the product of tens of millions of years of decomposition of organic matter. How the hell does the government think a crop of corn is going to make any difference in fossil fuel consumption? Thanks to democrat party policies we are dependent on foreign politics and we are sending our treasure to oil producing countries while the president tells us to be patient, a substitute for oil is right around the corner.


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## KissMy (Feb 24, 2011)

There is no substitute for oil. Ethanol can only replace 12% of our current fuel consumption. Your life will completely change without oil.


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## Cain (Feb 24, 2011)

We do not have a lack of land for food, we have a lack of farmers. I live on a farm, and most of my family farms, and most of them either: A) Stay on the farm or B) Join the military. Problem is, staying on the farm is rough work, and if you fail, you really fail. If your farm goes down, it's not like a corporation where you have money set aside, say goodbye to your normal life.

I hope to farm once I retire from the USAF, but really, I don't ever want to be like my other family members, large-scale farming. Also, I hope we don't end up going hungry, but me personally, I am pretty sure if we worked efficiently, as of now, we could self-exist on the acreage we have, but honestly, beans/corn could get old quick.


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## whitehall (Feb 24, 2011)

Cain said:


> We do not have a lack of land for food, we have a lack of farmers. I live on a farm, and most of my family farms, and most of them either: A) Stay on the farm or B) Join the military. Problem is, staying on the farm is rough work, and if you fail, you really fail. If your farm goes down, it's not like a corporation where you have money set aside, say goodbye to your normal life.
> 
> I hope to farm once I retire from the USAF, but really, I don't ever want to be like my other family members, large-scale farming. Also, I hope we don't end up going hungry, but me personally, I am pretty sure if we worked efficiently, as of now, we could self-exist on the acreage we have, but honestly, beans/corn could get old quick.



One thing about the USAF, and I don't mean it to be critical. You either fly or you wipe wings. If you want to spend a career wiping wings it's fine. Personally I'm biased toward the Marines. Every Marine, including pilots, is a rifleman. Think about it.


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## uscitizen (Feb 24, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> Why is there a tariff on ethanol imported by the U.S.? To protect Big Ag's monopoly?
> 
> And if that isn't enough, Big Ag is dumping yet more corn onto Mexican markets and squeezing out local farmers.



How does that work?  Dumping corn onto mexican markets and squeezing out local farmers?
I understand the squeezing out local farmers, but the locals around her love higher corn prices.


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## KissMy (Feb 24, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> Mr. H. said:
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> > Why is there a tariff on ethanol imported by the U.S.? To protect Big Ag's monopoly?
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He means squeezing out local Mexican farmers inside Mexico.


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## uscitizen (Feb 24, 2011)

KissMy said:


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ahh like the USA did with Rice in Haiti?
it brought down the price so locals could not make a living doing it.
the USA has a long history of doing things like this to other countries.


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## xsited1 (Feb 24, 2011)

You get better gas mileage without ethanol.  But who needs to eat, srsly?  It's not like people need to eat to survive.


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## Cain (Feb 24, 2011)

whitehall said:


> Cain said:
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> > We do not have a lack of land for food, we have a lack of farmers. I live on a farm, and most of my family farms, and most of them either: A) Stay on the farm or B) Join the military. Problem is, staying on the farm is rough work, and if you fail, you really fail. If your farm goes down, it's not like a corporation where you have money set aside, say goodbye to your normal life.
> ...



I am going in as Security Forces, they don't fly or wipe wings.


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## whitehall (Feb 24, 2011)

Cain said:


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It was intended as a metaphor but the fact that you didn't get it indicates that you are sold on the career. Everybody in the USAF has a single mission and one mission only and that is to keep the wings flying. The security force wipes wings just as surely as the computer geeks or the cooks. It's not a bad thing but don't be fooled.


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## uscitizen (Feb 24, 2011)

xsited1 said:


> You get better gas mileage without ethanol.  But who needs to eat, srsly?  It's not like people need to eat to survive.



As long as we have the net, cell phones and such what else do we need?


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## percysunshine (Feb 24, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> xsited1 said:
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> > You get better gas mileage without ethanol.  But who needs to eat, srsly?  It's not like people need to eat to survive.
> ...



Toilet paper.


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

NEWS FLASH!!! - Ethanol plants produce a co-product. It is called animal feed DDGS (Distillers Dried Grains) You take feed corn to the ethanol plants & you get back both food & fuel!!!

Cattle that would have eaten the corn grain and soybean meal to supplement their diet, now eat distillers grains as that part of their balanced diet. Equal or better performance (rates of gain for beef cattle or milk yield in dairy cows) are usually reported from cows with up to 20% of their diet from distillers grains are compared with control diets.


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## percysunshine (Feb 25, 2011)

KissMy said:


> NEWS FLASH!!! - Ethanol plants produce a co-product. It is called animal feed DDGS (Distillers Dried Grains) You take feed corn to the ethanol plants & you get back both food & fuel!!!
> 
> Cattle that would have eaten the corn grain and soybean meal to supplement their diet, now eat distillers grains as that part of their balanced diet. Equal or better performance (rates of gain for beef cattle or milk yield in dairy cows) are usually reported when diets with up to 20% of their food intake from distillers grains are compared with control diets.




NEWS FLASH! Government invents perpetual motion machine!


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

percysunshine said:


> KissMy said:
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> > NEWS FLASH!!! - Ethanol plants produce a co-product. It is called animal feed DDGS (Distillers Dried Grains) You take feed corn to the ethanol plants & you get back both food & fuel!!!
> ...



The corn starch caused methane in cattle that was released into the atmosphere. It was not making beef, hamburgers, steaks or milk. Methane gas is 15 times more powerful of a greenhouse gas than CO2. Now this starch is converted into ethanol instead of methane gas.


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## percysunshine (Feb 25, 2011)

KissMy said:


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Ever heard of the laws of thermodynamics? To paraphrase; There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Save your global warming bs for the uneducated.


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

percysunshine said:


> KissMy said:
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DDGS contain all the protein that was in the corn. Protein is what builds muscle, not starch. Muscles = Hamburger.

Bernanke's printing press is what is driving up cotton, corn, oil & metals prices. All commodities have risen big-time in price.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 25, 2011)

KissMy said:


> percysunshine said:
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Really? The total wipeout of the Pakistani agriculture from the flooding there, the loss of 40% of the Russian grain crop, and 10% of the EU grain crop from the drought there, the loss of the Australian Queensland wheat, sugar, and banana crops, have nothing to do with the rise in prices. The loss of 1/3 of the world's coking coal, until the mines are drained and the rails rebuilt in Queensland has nothing to do with the rise in prices. And then there is the little matter of major unrest in the one of the major oil producing areas in the world. 

But none of this has anything to do with the commodity prices. It has to be Bernanke's fault.


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Really? The total wipeout of the Pakistani agriculture from the flooding there, the loss of 40% of the Russian grain crop, and 10% of the EU grain crop from the drought there, the loss of the Australian Queensland wheat, sugar, and banana crops, have nothing to do with the rise in prices. The loss of 1/3 of the world's coking coal, until the mines are drained and the rails rebuilt in Queensland has nothing to do with the rise in prices. And then there is the little matter of major unrest in the one of the major oil producing areas in the world.
> 
> But none of this has anything to do with the commodity prices. It has to be Bernanke's fault.



There is always a drought & flooding somewhere in the world. But people just keep on believing the governments spin  that fraudulent lending & printing money are not the real cause of high commodity prices. Come on! - Even your freaking water bill has gone up over the past couple of years! It's the most abundant thing on the planet.


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## Annie (Feb 25, 2011)

Using farm land to produce 'energy' is wrong. Now even those that championed the cause admit it:

Review & Outlook: Bill Clinton's Corn Sense - WSJ.com



> * FEBRUARY 25, 2011
> 
> Bill Clinton's Corn Sense
> The former President connects ethanol to rising food prices.
> ...



Review & Outlook: Al Gore's Ethanol Epiphany - WSJ.com



> * NOVEMBER 27, 2010
> 
> Al Gore's Ethanol Epiphany
> He concedes the industry he promoted serves no useful purpose.
> ...



Switchgrass is an alternative to ethanol, though like it the use of land is questionable:

Is America Headed for a Food Shortage? | Popular Science



> Is America Headed for a Food Shortage?
> A new study suggests that ethanol production could drive up corn prices, leaving U.S. grains and meat in short supply
> By Dawn Stover Posted 06.07.2007
> 
> ...


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

Creating money causes our products to be cheaper for foreigners. This dramatically increases our exports & raises our prices here in the USA. Everything else is a lie. 

Why has cotton trippled in price?


> *A few years ago, 30 percent of our crop was exported and 70 percent was used domestically, *he told members of the Southern Crop Production Association at their annual conference at Amelia Island, Fla. *Now, we're exporting 70 percent to 75 percent of our crop.*



Crop Surge Drives U.S. Export Boom


> Record U.S. agricultural exports are providing an unexpected boost to President Barack Obamas target of doubling overseas sales by 2015...Farm exports from the U.S., the worlds largest grain shipper, may top the 2008 record of $115.3 billion in 2011, said Joe Glauber, chief economist at the U.S. Department of Agriculture.



World less dependent on US crop exports in 2009 than in 1980 


> Between 1980 and 2009, the world production of corn, wheat, and soybeans grew by 86 percent, increasing from 926 million metric tons to 1.73 billion metric tons (Fig. 1 solid red line). During that same period, the world population grew from 4.5 billion people to 6.8 billion, an increase of 51 percent. On average, the world production of the three crops grew at a rate 40 percent faster than population.


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## Annie (Feb 25, 2011)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but from my reading of OP it was on ethanol and food prices/scarcity. Not on commodities and government policies on that overall.


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

There is no scarcity! There are just to damn many dollars circulating. There is probably more dollars than rocks on the ground & that makes dollars as worthless as rocks on the ground.

Stories of scarcity & supply disruption get moved up to front page news & main TV coverage because prices rise. It is the tail wagging the dog. Print money now & lie about a year or two later when prices rise. The media & government have brainwashed the planet.


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## Annie (Feb 25, 2011)

KissMy said:


> There is no scarcity! There are just to damn many dollars circulating. There is probably more dollars than rocks on the ground & that makes dollars as worthless as rocks on the ground.
> 
> Stories of scarcity & supply disruption get moved up to front page news & main TV coverage because prices rise. It is the tail wagging the dog. Print money now & lie about a year or two later when prices rise. The media & government have brainwashed the planet.



Wrong. Food wise, there's a huge problem. Ethanol was always a bad idea.


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## Mr. H. (Feb 25, 2011)

Annie said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here, but from my reading of OP it was on ethanol and food prices/scarcity. Not on commodities and government policies on that overall.



Here's quote from the linked story:

*ARLINGTON, Virginia* (Reuters)  Huge U.S. corn and soybean plantings this spring will likely fail to refill razor-thin stocks enough to quell the surge in grain prices, the U.S. Agriculture Department said on Thursday.

In updated forecasts for the world's biggest crop exporter, the USDA warned that it could take several years to restore inventories to comfortable levels. It mostly maintained earlier forecasts on how many acres farmers would sow this spring, but said stocks at the end of the 2012 season would remain tight.


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

Annie said:


> KissMy said:
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> > There is no scarcity! There are just to damn many dollars circulating. There is probably more dollars than rocks on the ground & that makes dollars as worthless as rocks on the ground.
> ...



We export more food now than we ever did before ethanol. We even export a larger percentage of our food than we ever did before ethanol. The media controls the peoples minds. On average, the world production of crops grew at a rate 40 percent faster than population.

Ethanol is a bad idea if you grow crops just to make ethanol. It is good if you use the DDGS co-product to feed the same animals that the original crops were going to feed. This is why it is only feasible to replace 12% of US fuel consumption. It will never replace oil.


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## Annie (Feb 25, 2011)

KissMy said:


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Straight out question to you: Are you in favor of continuing subsidies on corn production for ethanol?


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

Annie said:


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No- Ethanol is profitable without subsidy. They should have never forced oil companies to ship to all corners of the USA. It would have competed just fine in the local Midwest as E85. The problem now is that the media has bashed it so bad that people refuse to use it, so now you need some sort of mandate. Even with corn prices at all time highs the ethanol plants turn out ethanol at $2.33 a gallon. Last year production cost was only $1.00 a gallon.


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## Mr. H. (Feb 25, 2011)

Since the government _mandates_ ethanol blends, there will always be a guaranteed market for it. 

Guaranteed markets equal guaranteed sales. Not a bad "business" to be in, you think?


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## Annie (Feb 25, 2011)

KissMy said:


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So no problem in ending the subsidies and the mandates. Good.


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## Cain (Feb 25, 2011)

whitehall said:


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I understand, but you don't seem to get what I am saying. Your generalizing the whole Air Force into one saying, but anyone can do that with any branch. Generalizations such as: Zoomies, Chairforce, Groundpounders, Jarheads, Weekend Warriors etc. Are very common, doesn't mean their true, or even worth saying.

Honestly, I could care less what others think about my future career, or me, if that makes me sold, then the shoe fits.


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## KissMy (Feb 25, 2011)

Annie said:


> KissMy said:
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My family & I have been burning E85 ethanol in all of our vehicles for 10 years now. We would go to gas stations that had 10 pumps with no one at them but would have to wait for the ethanol pump. We would talk to the people using it & they loved it & would go to that station just to get it. Now since all the bad press has come out against it there is no-body at the E85 pump when we go to fill up even though the price is 50 cents a gallon less than gas. Media has enormous power. *Just ask anyone if they know the ethanol plants create livestock feed that has all the same protein value as the corn that went into it. They will tell you no way, but the fact is they do.*

The people I talk to that useta to use it say they don't anymore because on the news they said it causes food to go up. Now there has to be some sort of mandate to keep the system going. I don't care if they make the midwest use E85 & the further out places use gas but the media has ruined ethanol. There is no study on the viability of ethanol that factors in the energy value of the DDG feed that comes out of the plants. They also never factor in how most plants use waste heat prom power plants to cook the mash. This waste heat used to go into the atmosphere. They also do not factor in No Till Farming methods that cut in half the total fuels used to produce corn. *I have read all their studies & done all the math. They conveniently leave all the things I mentioned above out of their study intentionally to make their point.* When you just add in the feed value the ethanol produces 2.2 units of energy for every 1 unit of energy used or lost in the entire chain from growing corn to making your car move. If you add in No-Till Farming & waste energy consumption the EROEI goes much higher.

I have a farm, own part of an ethanol plant & burn it in my vehicles. The ethanol plant made $12 million last year. The subsidiary goes to the oil companies to make the E85 pumps available to customers at their gas stations & blender credit for them to mix it into gasoline. Some subsidiary went to the railroad for their transportation infrastructure. The ethanol plant got a one time $150k subsidiary to start-up but nothing since then & farmers are not subsidized. This one plant employs 50 full time workers 350 service jobs & keeps farmers from taking government money they were getting prior to ethanol to keep land out of production. It also replaced the harmful MTBE in gasoline that pollutes all the ground water.


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## Mr. H. (Feb 25, 2011)

I own part of an oil business. I wish the government would give me an extra 50 cents a gallon for the oil I produce. I also wish they'd put a tariff on imported oil. The media isn't nice towards my business and the President just plain wishes I'd go away, even though we've been in the business for four generations.


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## Mr. H. (Feb 26, 2011)

Several months ago, I attended an Ag Conference themed "Telling Our Story". It was a fascinating experience. Using the media, Facebook, and Twitter to dispel myth, rumor, and half-truth about the practices in Agriculture: markets, food safety, nutrition, economics, government programs, etc. 

This old guy sitting next to me asks, "So, where you farming at? Where's your acreage". I told him my county and said we've been at it four generations now. As for acreage- I said I wasn't a farmer in the conventional sense, but an energy farmer. 

His reply? "Oh, you're one of the rich kind". I said "You know what? I'd love to have your public relations problems. And what's more- according to what you just said, I've got quite a job ahead of me". 

The irony- me, operating in a totally different economic and political environment. At the mercy of the market, the scorn of public opinion, the target of Washington. He, with his set-aside programs, loan deficiency payments, crop insurance, guaranteed and protected markets - the "can't do no wrong sweetheart of America". 

I'm sick and tired of this shit. This past winter caused a shutdown that cost tens of thousands of dollars- the weather- the act of God from which the farmer is protected. I have put up with this bullshit for over 30 years. Who gives a fuck - $1.00/gallon gasoline is what gets votes. 

Call it manufacturing or extraction or whatever the hell you want to call it. Oil and gas means jobs, it means real economic generation, taxes and royalties for local state and federal treasuries. It also means buying less of the stuff from someone outside our borders. Agriculture has a myriad of safeguards built into its risk portfolio. The only "safeguards" available to the hydrocarbon industries are tax code provisions that have been in place for decades and that are available to a host of other endeavors. 

Why, for fuck's sake are we suddenly hell bent on strangling what works in order to promote only that which we are led to believe we "HOPE" will work?


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## KissMy (Feb 26, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> I own part of an oil business. I wish the government would give me an extra 50 cents a gallon for the oil I produce. I also wish they'd put a tariff on imported oil. The media isn't nice towards my business and the President just plain wishes I'd go away, even though we've been in the business for four generations.



The oil company does get the 50 cents a gallon. The "Ethanol Subsidy" goes to the oil company in the form of blender credit & pump credit. Farmers don't own gas stations so the oil companies get all the money to mix & sell the ethanol with their gas. Oil companies benefit from the wars we fight, governments we prop up & subsidize.

Ethanol will only amount to 12% of the business anyhow. We need to get Semi Trucks converted to LNG, Hydrogen, CNG, Propane, Bio-Diesel & Dino-Diesel in order to use more domestic fuel. That one LNG conversion will allow these trucks to run on 5 different types of fuels. All those wind & solar projects will free up more Natural Gas to burn in vehicles. We don't need expensive battery cars that only go 30 miles on a charge. The Pickens Plan is way better than the Obama electric car plan.


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## Mr. H. (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm cool with all that except the blender/pump credits. Any links?

The "wars" thing? Pfft. If anything, it encourages imports.


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## KissMy (Feb 26, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> I'm cool with all that except the blender/pump credits. Any links?
> 
> The "wars" thing? Pfft. If anything, it encourages imports.


I am all for Drill Here Drill Now. Anything that gets us off the Arabs oil is what I am for.

I find it interesting that you are in the energy business and didn't know the oil companies get the "Ethanol Subsidy" money & not the ethanol plants or farmers.

Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC) - The "Blenders' Credit"


> Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC) - The "Blenders' Credit"
> Commonly referred to as the "blender's credit," the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC) was created in 2004 as part of H.R. 4520, the American Jobs Creation Act of 2004 (JOBS Bill, P.L. 108-357).  VEETC provides oil companies with an economic incentive to blend ethanol with gasoline.  As of January 1, 2009, the original tax credit totaling 51 cents per gallon on pure ethanol (5.1 cents per gallon for E10, and 42 cents per gallon on E85) was reduced to 45 cents per gallon.  The tax credit is passed on to motorists in the form of more cost-effective fuel at the pump.  VEETC is currently authorized through December 31, 2010.


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## Mr. H. (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks for that. I'll review it when this hangover subsides.


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## jeffrockit (Feb 28, 2011)

Annie said:


> It's wrong, in every sense. ethanol doesn't help the environment, in fact it uses more energy than it saves. The government knows it and has for years, going back at least to Clinton. Considering the world economy, it's just worse now:
> 
> The Looming Food Crisis
> 
> ...



And it is worse for the climate
Study: Ethanol Worse for Climate Than Gasoline : NPR

and ruins small engines
Mechanics see ethanol damaging small engines - Business - Consumer news - msnbc.com

and drives up food prices
Plan B Updates - 69: Why Ethanol Production Will Drive World Food Prices Even Higher in 2008 | EPI

Other than those small items, it is a great alternative to gasoline


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## KissMy (Feb 28, 2011)

If ethanol links food prices around the world more tightly with oil it will help the symbiotic trade imbalance. If the Arabs cut oil production then they are going to starve. This would happen without the need for embargo's that hurt us worse than them. Now it will hurt them worse than us. However I don't think they are linked like that.

Again People - NEWS FLASH!!! - Ethanol plants produce a co-product. It is called animal feed DDGS (Distillers Dried Grains) You take feed corn to the ethanol plants & you get back both food & fuel!!! DDGS contain all the protein that was in the corn. Protein is what builds muscle, not starch. Muscles = Hamburger. The corn starch caused methane in cattle that was released into the atmosphere. It was not making beef, hamburgers, steaks or milk. Methane gas is 15 times more powerful of a greenhouse gas than CO2. Now this starch is converted into ethanol instead of methane gas.

Bernanke's printing press is what is driving up cotton, corn, oil & metals prices. All commodities have risen big-time in price. Even your freaking water bill has gone up over the past couple of years! It's the most abundant thing on the planet.


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## MaggieMae (Mar 5, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> *U.S. crop boom not enough to rebuild thin supplies*
> 
> So... here we have "razor thin" grain inventories, prices for food are rising, and agriculture says that diverting 36% of the entire corn harvest to ethanol production _isn't enough_?
> 
> ...



The urgent issue of using 40% of the corn crops for ethanol rather than food needs to be revisited *soon*. Food supplies all over the world are in short supply due to bad weather and poor crop yields combined with the rising demand in places like China and India. The spike in corn prices has pushed up the worldwide cost of crops like wheat and soy. Vilsack is failing to see the bigger picture here, and somebody needs to point out a few important facts he apparently chooses to ignore. There are plenty of other alternative fuel sources that can easily be developed that aren't something people want to eat.


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## KissMy (Mar 6, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> The urgent issue of using 40% of the corn crops for ethanol rather than food needs to be revisited *soon*. Food supplies all over the world are in short supply due to bad weather and poor crop yields combined with the rising demand in places like China and India. The spike in corn prices has pushed up the worldwide cost of crops like wheat and soy. Vilsack is failing to see the bigger picture here, and somebody needs to point out a few important facts he apparently chooses to ignore. There are plenty of other alternative fuel sources that can easily be developed that aren't something people want to eat.



*If you think using switch grass or something else that is not used for food will not cause an even larger problem then you need your head examined!!!*

Food producing crop-land & fertilizer will get used to raise switch grass. *So then you will truly have less food in the world.* At least with corn ethanol 100% of the corn protein is turned into DDG animal feed. Hell Taco Bell could even use it instead of the other filler they are currently in their tacos. Ethanol is only made from the corn starch. All the other feed value is still preserved & used for animal feed.

With switch grass there will be absolutely no beneficial food product produced along with the ethanol. All you will get is a bunch of industrial waste. Then we will be truly farming only for ethanol which will take as much energy to create a gallon of ethanol as that ethanol will produce. Also more energy will be consumed in the production of more farm equipment for switch grass while the now productive farm equipment will sit & rust. At least currently we are extracting ethanol from the food chain that we are currently producing & still keeping all the food value in the world food chain.

*Switch-grass ethanol will be the biggest mistake this country could ever make.*

BTW - If you people do not understand how creating more money drives up all commodity prices then you do not have a understanding of economics. In China & India most of the population ate rice & grains. As we send more of our money to those countries more of the population start to eat meat. It takes 10 calories worth of rice & grains to raise the meat the same population eats to replace the one calorie worth of rice & grains they were eating. So as we print money this allows China & India to increase their food consumption by 10 fold. For years now China has been out bidding the ethanol plants for corn. China also buys much of the DDG feed from the ethanol plants driving the DDG feed prices higher for the US cattle farmers.


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## Annie (Mar 6, 2011)

I have empathy for the farmers, they seem to still collect massive debt, get vilified for subsidies that politicians use them for, and manage to keep breaking records in food production. 

However, using land to replace fossil fuels is not sustainable and certainly not in the world populations interests. 

Bring on hydrogen or some new products. Keep the government out of it.


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## MaggieMae (Mar 6, 2011)

KissMy said:


> NEWS FLASH!!! - Ethanol plants produce a co-product. It is called animal feed DDGS (Distillers Dried Grains) You take feed corn to the ethanol plants & you get back both food & fuel!!!
> 
> Cattle that would have eaten the corn grain and soybean meal to supplement their diet, now eat distillers grains as that part of their balanced diet. Equal or better performance (rates of gain for beef cattle or milk yield in dairy cows) are usually reported from cows with up to 20% of their diet from distillers grains are compared with control diets.



Corn-fed beef is what makes it tough and tasteless. The price of beef could skyrocket and it wouldn't affect my pocketbook because I don't eat it anymore.


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## MaggieMae (Mar 6, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> KissMy said:
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> > percysunshine said:
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But of course. Whatever would their day look like if there weren't some issue to blame on the present administration?


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## MaggieMae (Mar 6, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Really? The total wipeout of the Pakistani agriculture from the flooding there, the loss of 40% of the Russian grain crop, and 10% of the EU grain crop from the drought there, the loss of the Australian Queensland wheat, sugar, and banana crops, have nothing to do with the rise in prices. The loss of 1/3 of the world's coking coal, until the mines are drained and the rails rebuilt in Queensland has nothing to do with the rise in prices. And then there is the little matter of major unrest in the one of the major oil producing areas in the world.
> ...



Unless you're proposing piping sea water in to grow food, or fill your water bottles with salt water, you're full of shit.

Global water shortages will pose major challenges - Analyst Insight from Euromonitor International


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## MaggieMae (Mar 6, 2011)

Annie said:


> Using farm land to produce 'energy' is wrong. Now even those that championed the cause admit it:
> 
> Review & Outlook: Bill Clinton's Corn Sense - WSJ.com
> 
> ...



But...but...but...gotta love those huge earmarks that go to corn producing states.

Six Republicans Sign Letter Demanding Ethanol Subsidy Extension | RedState


> It is an unconstitutional regulation that has enriched a few special interests with $7.7 billion taxpayer dollars, regressively drove up the cost of food and fuel; and by extension all products and services that rely on fuel based delivery.  The tax credits for energy producers who blend fuel with ethanol have created so many unintended (or intended by some)  negative consequences that even Al Gore is calling for its repeal.  The tax credits are slated to expire in one month and yet, we have not heard much from the newly elected Republican majority in the House.  Is your Republican Congressman more conservative than Al Gore?



Is that call *by* Republicans *to* Republicans somewhere in their proposed budget slashing measure?


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## MaggieMae (Mar 6, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > KissMy said:
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I don't think anyone ever claimed it would replace oil.


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## MaggieMae (Mar 6, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Annie said:
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> > KissMy said:
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The reason more people haven't at least tried corn ethanol is because there are so few gas stations that sell it. Wouldn't the reason for that be that the big oil companies have much more control over what we buy for fuel than the media?


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## rdean (Mar 6, 2011)

America's Obesity Crisis:Agriculture: The Corn Connection - TIME

We shouldn't be eating so much corn.


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## MaggieMae (Mar 6, 2011)

Annie said:


> I have empathy for the farmers, they seem to still collect massive debt, get vilified for subsidies that politicians use them for, and manage to keep breaking records in food production.
> 
> However, using land to replace fossil fuels is not sustainable and certainly not in the world populations interests.
> 
> Bring on hydrogen or some new products. Keep the government out of it.



I agree, but the problem is the private sector has no interest in developing those alternatives *without* government subsidies, and that includes nuclear.


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## Annie (Mar 6, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> KissMy said:
> 
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> > Annie said:
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In Illinois we have up to 10% ethanol, no choice unless diesel. We are very familiar with it.


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## boedicca (Mar 6, 2011)

We're the only major civilization in the history of humanity to burn food for fuel.

The result, rampant food inflation which is hitting the poor around the globe.  Food inflation is 10% in China.  It's not a good thing for us to burn food while owing so much money to a country with a long history of famine.   Think about it.


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## KissMy (Mar 11, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> > I'm cool with all that except the blender/pump credits. Any links?
> ...



So was I right Mr. H.? Aren't the oil companies the ones getting the "Ethanol Subsidy" money & not the ethanol plants or farmers?


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## Mr. H. (Apr 8, 2011)

Just to add corn fuel to the fire:

US corn reserves expected to fall to 15-year low - Yahoo! News

*ST. LOUIS* &#8211; _Rising demand for corn from ethanol producers is pushing U.S. reserves to the lowest point in 15 years, a trend that could lead to higher grain and food prices this year.

The Agriculture Department on Friday left its estimate for corn reserves unchanged from the previous month. The reserves are projected to fall to 675 million bushels in late August, when the harvest begins, or roughly 5 percent of all corn consumed in the United States. That would be the lowest surplus level since 1996.

The limited supply is chiefly because of increasing demand from ethanol makers, which rose 1 percent to 5 billion bushels. That's about 40 percent of the total crop._


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## Mr. H. (Apr 8, 2011)

KissMy said:


> So was I right Mr. H.? Aren't the oil companies the ones getting the "Ethanol Subsidy" money & not the ethanol plants or farmers?



Oops sorry. Haven't checked that one out yet.


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## percysunshine (Apr 8, 2011)

Ethanol subsidies go to whomever donates the most money to the Democrat party.


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## boedicca (Apr 8, 2011)

Food Shortages and Global Instability are linked.   This policy of burning food for fuel is insane.

_For those who think there's a real world beyond their video-game trading terminals and bubble-induced "Fed's got my back" commodities speculations comes yet another instance of what will be a long chain reaction of riots and supply disruptions. At this stage, you could probably just spin the globe and point. In the Ivory Coast, violence has erupted and continues to escalate. These disruptions are cumulative. In Ivory Coast's case, disruptions include rubber, cocoa and oil._

Food Prices and Global Hunger Equal Riots, Civil Wars and Revolution - Seeking Alpha


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## KissMy (Apr 8, 2011)

*You can thank the ever weakening US Dollar for sending all our Corn, DDGs & Ethanol to foreign countries.*

Ethanol Exports Continue to Surge; Anti-Dumping Investigation Reduces DDGS Exports to China


> The new year began with a bang for U.S. ethanol exports, according to government data released today. Ethanol shipments (consisting of both denatured and undenatured, non-beverage, ethanol) totaled 57.2 million gallons in January, marking the second highest monthly total on record. However, the January total was down 20% from the all-time record of 71.9 million gallons. established in December 2010. *These exports are not eligible for the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC), also called the blenders credit.*
> 
> Of the total, 45.4 million gallons were denatured. Canada continued to be the top market for denatured ethanol exports, receiving 19.4 million gallons in January. The United Arab Emirates, the Netherlands, Finland, and the United Kingdom, respectively, were other top destinations for denatured product in January. Together, the top five importers received 98% of total U.S. denatured ethanol shipments in January.
> 
> ...



Another large driver of food prices are the many millions of 2012 doomers stocking up enormous stockpiles of food. There are even large corporations storing food for members. Survival cities have been built & are being stocked full of food. 2012 fear is a very big & booming world wide business.


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## Mr. H. (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm shocked to learn that U.S. ethanol is being exported.


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## zzzz (Apr 8, 2011)

> Strong use both domestically and worldwide keeps feed grain prices at historically high levels, but down from record highs attained in 2007/08. Expansion in the U.S. ethanol industry is projected to continue, although the pace is assumed to slow from the rapid gains of the past several years.  The continued presence of ethanol demand in the corn sector, in combination with other long-term factors, holds prices for corn and many other crops well above their historical levels. Use of corn for corn sweeteners is expected to grow at the half the rate of population increase. Use of corn to produce ethanol for fuel will continue to climb. Feed and residual use will also expand over the period as livestock and poultry production continues to increase in the long term. As ethanol production expands, livestock producers will feed more distillers' grains and other ethanol co-products to livestock, which will limit growth in corn feed demand.


http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/corn/2010baseline.htm


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## KissMy (Apr 8, 2011)

zzzz said:


>



The chart measuring the DDGS feed in bushels is misleading. DDGS feed may only be 1/3rd the weight of corn, but it still has 100% of the protein & all nutrients except the starch that was converted to ethanol. When animals eat straight corn they turn the starch to methane gas & far or burp it out into the atmosphere. Methane gas is 15 times more potent of a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide (CO2).


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## Morell (Apr 20, 2011)

percysunshine said:


> Burning food is one of those events in the history of the universe which qualifies as a 'bad idea'.



yes, you are right.


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## MaggieMae (Apr 20, 2011)

percysunshine said:


> Ethanol subsidies go to whomever donates the most money to the Democrat party.



Ya think?

Agribusiness | OpenSecrets


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## KissMy (Apr 20, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Ethanol subsidies go to whomever donates the most money to the Democrat party.
> ...



None of the companies in your list gets Ethanol Subsidies!

The "Ethanol Subsidy" is really a "Tax Break" for Oil Companies. It is called Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC) which is 45-cent per gallon of ethanol tax credit for oil companies who sell it. That equals 4.5 cent tax break for every gallon of E10 gas the oil companies sell. That makes your gas 4.5 cents per gallon cheaper at the pump. That is 1/3rd of the 12 cents per gallon you pay just for the convenience of using your credit card.

Big AG, Farmers & Ethanol Companies get Nothing. As a matter of fact there are no "Ethanol Subsidies" or "Tax Breaks" for Ethanol Exports. We are now exporting about 864 million gallons of Ethanol a year to Canada, United Arab Emirates, the Netherlands, Finland, the United Kingdom & Brazil.


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## Mr. H. (Apr 20, 2011)

KissMy said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> > percysunshine said:
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I don't recall the export of ethanol being a component of its initial program.

If the idea was sold as a means of reducing oil imports, why do you suppose we are exporting ethanol?


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## KissMy (Apr 20, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> KissMy said:
> 
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> > MaggieMae said:
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Bad press prevents US consumers from using all the ethanol we produce in this country so ethanol companies found more markets around the world. These other countries likely found that blending ethanol reduced emissions preventing them from having to mix the ground water polluting MTBE into their gas to reduce emissions. These countries also figured the oil tankers are coming back empty so filling them with Ethanol would make the Ethanol shipping cost very very small.

I think it would be so much better if we could get people here at home to use more. Preferably people in the Midwest should use as much as possible to reduce shipping, but media's brainwashing is very powerful.


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## MaggieMae (Apr 20, 2011)

KissMy said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> > percysunshine said:
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Yikes. Even worse:

Oil & Gas | OpenSecrets


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## KissMy (Apr 20, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> > MaggieMae said:
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It is horrible isn't it - 4.5 cents a gallon tax deduction to make ethanol available at your favorite local gas station. But paying 12 cents a gallon credit card fee to the mega rich banks & credit card companies so you don't have to carry cash is just great! - Thanks, Got It!


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