# Why teachers need more pay



## wallflower

Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count. 

Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26. 

But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day. 

Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000. 

The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
$60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.



So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


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## Disir

teacher salary in Tulsa
http://www.tulsaschools.org/1_Admin...mpensation_benefits/salary_schedules_main.asp

Salary in Tucson is on page 59
http://www.tusd.k12.az.us/contents/employment/Documents/13-14Consensus.pdf


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## whitehall

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.



Say what? Pay teachers "per hour per child"? The union would cram a thousand kids into a classroom. Why not deduct a percentage from teachers salaries for every kid that drops out?


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## Mr. H.

Good teachers gut fucked because principals administrators and presidents enjoy bloated union salaries. 

Good teachers get fucked because tenured bad teachers have priority and seniority. 

Good teachers get fucked because they are not related to, nor are they friends of, nor do they go  to the same church as... tenured administrative teachers. 

Today's schools are fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism. 

The good teachers are cast out for wont of unionized perverts, lesbians, Liberal, family and friend.


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## oldfart

Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.


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## wallflower

Pay teachers per hour per kid wasn't my argument at all, if you read my disclaimer. My statement was simply that even those who argue teachers are glorified babysitters who should be paid less than they currently make are wrong. And I'm certainly not arguing for $160,000 paychecks either. That's not sustainable. I was simply making a point that treating them as the "glorified babysitters" some say they are would technically involve higher pay than it does now.


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## wallflower

I know I made an odd argument, and I in no way advocate doing what my argument was. That'd be detrimental to the system. I created a hypothetical simply to make a point.


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## Mr. H.

oldfart said:


> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.



Yeah- thanks for asking. Wife did that for 4 years. One of the best that school ever had. 
Admins told her so. 

So...

We assumed she'd get tenure, so I started looking for a house to buy.

Wife shows up for work at the end of the school year and the principal tells her flat out- you're fired. 

Reason? None. 

None required. 

Other than the fact that my wife did not attend a church, did not mingle in school circles, was not close to any other teacher/admin in the district, was not related to same, did not suck cock. 

And now... you know, the rest of the story.


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## Mr. H.

Nepotism, cronyism, favoritism. 

The Holy Trinity of our educational system. 

It ruined our lives. 

And for that I shall forever hate this country's so-called educational system.


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## Not2BSubjugated

Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.

Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?

Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?

Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.

Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.

Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.

That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.

Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.

The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.


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## seeJudy

Mr. H. said:


> Nepotism, cronyism, favoritism.
> 
> The Holy Trinity of our educational system.
> 
> It ruined our lives.
> 
> And for that I shall forever hate this country's so-called educational system.


Sounds like some things happening in Chinese mainland ...


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## gallantwarrior

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.



First: teachers should never be paid to "babysit".  They are there to educate our children, not babysit, not indoctrinate.
Second: as a university professor, I am well aware of the additional hours required to accomplish the job.  That is part of what one accepts when one accepts the job.


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## seeJudy

Mr. H. said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah- thanks for asking. Wife did that for 4 years. One of the best that school ever had.
> Admins told her so.
> 
> So...
> 
> We assumed she'd get tenure, so I started looking for a house to buy.
> 
> Wife shows up for work at the end of the school year and the principal tells her flat out- you're fired.
> 
> Reason? None.
> 
> None required.
> 
> Other than the fact that my wife did not attend a church, did not mingle in school circles, was not close to any other teacher/admin in the district, was not related to same, did not suck cock.
> 
> And now... you know, the rest of the story.
Click to expand...

One of benefits of being a teacher in Chinese mainland seems that nobody dares to fire a teacher randomly. Surely except those temporary teachers, who do the same jobs, but get less paid, and do not occupy the government's personnel organization.


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## Politico

oldfart said:


> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.



Same here. I want to know what it's like to have three months off every year and get paid.


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## Machaut

wallflower said:


> *Why teachers need more pay*
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers...



:/


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## wallflower

gallantwarrior said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> 
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> 
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> 
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> 
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First: teachers should never be paid to "babysit".  They are there to educate our children, not babysit, not indoctrinate.
> 
> Second: as a university professor, I am well aware of the additional hours required to accomplish the job.  That is part of what one accepts when one accepts the job.
Click to expand...


As I said, I don't actually support paying teachers like that. I created a hypothetical situation in which even those who say teachers don't deserve a lot of money because they're basically babysitters would be shown that most teachers are grossly underpaid right now. 

I would never pay a teacher like that, I was using the hypothetical to prove   a point.





Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


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## gallantwarrior

wallflower said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> 
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> 
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> 
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> 
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First: teachers should never be paid to "babysit".  They are there to educate our children, not babysit, not indoctrinate.
> 
> Second: as a university professor, I am well aware of the additional hours required to accomplish the job.  That is part of what one accepts when one accepts the job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I said, I don't actually support paying teachers like that. I created a hypothetical situation in which even those who say teachers don't deserve a lot of money because they're basically babysitters would be shown that most teachers are grossly underpaid right now.
> 
> I would never pay a teacher like that, I was using the hypothetical to prove   a point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
Click to expand...


Sorry, I guess I expressed that poorly.  I was agreeing with you.  Teachers in too many school systems are basically chained to the system approved curriculum and are often minutely managed as to how to teach that curriculum.  Too often, teachers who are retained are exactly those who make the best babysitters because they are incapable of creatively bringing knowledge to the young.  And teachers who have that ability are too often censored and punished if they dare use it "outside the box".
My brother has been teaching for 33 years and he's often discussed the changes he's encountered over the years.  I have been teaching at the university for 14 years and can vouch for the...ahem, _quality_ of the product generated by public schools.  I am just glad my job does not include grading their writing and math skills.
Oh, and I realize that a lot of the poor quality of our educational system is not the fault of most teachers.


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## Unkotare

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.





Interesting


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## Skull Pilot

teachers are not underpaid
they have it pretty fucking good for part timers


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## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers




"Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?


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## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
Click to expand...

it means they don't work a full time job

duh


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## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> ...
Click to expand...



Most teachers I know work full-time and then some.


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## The Sage of Main Street

Mr. H. said:


> Good teachers gut fucked because principals administrators and presidents enjoy bloated union salaries.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because tenured bad teachers have priority and seniority.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because they are not related to, nor are they friends of, nor do they go  to the same church as... tenured administrative teachers.
> 
> Today's schools are fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism.
> 
> The good teachers are cast out for wont of unionized perverts, lesbians, Liberal, family and friend.


*If You Own a Man's Work, You Own That Man*

Birchers have to blame every societal failure on unions because the only way their corporate gods can make a profit is by wage-gouging their employees.  Only a union can prevent the plutocratic parasites from freeloading off their serfs' production of the revenue.


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## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Most teachers I know work full-time and then some.
Click to expand...

yeah the ones i know get summers off

180 days in a school year
most people work 250 days a year

ergo part time job


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## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Most teachers I know work full-time and then some.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yeah [sic] the ones i [sic] know get summers off....
Click to expand...



You know teachers who don't work in the summer? And don't attend professional development courses?


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## Indeependent

See teacher pay go up.
See teacher get fired.
See teacher collect unemployment.


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## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Most teachers I know work full-time and then some.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yeah [sic] the ones i [sic] know get summers off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You know teachers who don't work in the summer? And don't attend professional development courses?
Click to expand...

that's not work and they sure as hell aren't taking courses 40 hours a week in the summer


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## bodecea

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


Teachers don't need more pay, they need to have more control in the classroom.   The thugs are running things in schools because they know nothing happens to them.


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## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> 
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Most teachers I know work full-time and then some.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yeah [sic] the ones i [sic] know get summers off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You know teachers who don't work in the summer? And don't attend professional development courses?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that's not work ......
Click to expand...



What's not?


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## Unkotare

bodecea said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers don't need more pay, they need to have more control in the classroom.   ....
Click to expand...



Um, no. The more pay thing would be fine.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> duh
Click to expand...


You'd be crying by 11:00 trying to keep up with any teacher in my school.


----------



## saveliberty

My youngest will exit teaching in a few weeks.  Helped a lot of students test out of college calculus.  Others were coached to state championships.  She is not able to get ahead with college debt and regular life bills, so she will use her degree to sell software at a much better salary.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most teachers I know work full-time and then some.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yeah [sic] the ones i [sic] know get summers off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You know teachers who don't work in the summer? And don't attend professional development courses?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that's not work ......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What's not?
Click to expand...

figure it out


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> duh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You'd be crying by 11:00 trying to keep up with any teacher in my school.
Click to expand...

that's funny


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most teachers I know work full-time and then some.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah [sic] the ones i [sic] know get summers off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You know teachers who don't work in the summer? And don't attend professional development courses?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that's not work ......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What's not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> figure it out
Click to expand...





= you're talking out your ass.


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> duh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You'd be crying by 11:00 trying to keep up with any teacher in my school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that's funny
Click to expand...



It's true.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Part timers"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it means they don't work a full time job
> 
> duh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You'd be crying by 11:00 trying to keep up with any teacher in my school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that's funny
Click to expand...


No, it wouldn't.  You probably couldn't keep up!


----------



## gallantwarrior

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


I wonder what the typical school administrator's salary is compared to a teacher's?  I suppose that would totally disgust anyone who is familiar with a teacher's job.


----------



## Unkotare

gallantwarrior said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the typical school administrator's salary is compared to a teacher's?  I suppose that would totally disgust anyone who is familiar with a teacher's job.
Click to expand...





Eh, no one becomes a teacher to get rich.


----------



## gallantwarrior

oldfart said:


> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.


I am a university adjunct professor.  I am paid per credit hour.  Of course, I have fewer obstacles than your typical K-12 babysitter.  Since my students pay for my services, if they sleep in class, watch videos on their iPhones and laptops, and neglect to complete assignments or do poorly on exams, it's all on them.  Most of my students do very well and I have only received one "less than favorable" student evaluation in 17 years.  OK, I suppose I don't fit the profile you are looking for, but I do instruct the products of the public school system.  Most of them are shocked to find out that sucking oxygen from the same space for a predetermined time as an instructor does not entitle them to A's or a 4.0 GPA.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Unkotare said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the typical school administrator's salary is compared to a teacher's?  I suppose that would totally disgust anyone who is familiar with a teacher's job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, no one becomes a teacher to get rich.
Click to expand...

I agree.  I teach because I like to teach.  But it just seems a shame that some desk jockey, office wonk gets paid significantly more (in many cases) than the teachers who constitute the skid marks where the rubber meets the road.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Politico said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same here. I want to know what it's like to have three months off every year and get paid.
Click to expand...

Depending on where you are employed, some school districts only actually pay the teachers' salaries during the months they work.  The individual must budget accordingly, or find summer work, to cover expenses during the months "off" from teaching.  Some school districts will prorate the teachers' salaries so they have a year-round monthly paycheck.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

gallantwarrior said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the typical school administrator's salary is compared to a teacher's?  I suppose that would totally disgust anyone who is familiar with a teacher's job.
Click to expand...


I was an administrator in Florida.  My pay scale was only slightly more than I got as a teacher.  When promoted, I think I was making $38,000 and then made $42,000 working a year-round contract.  After an average of about 14 hours a day as an assistant principal for almost two years, I went back to teaching for the Department of Defense Dependents Schools at $42,000 a year, some extra time off in the summer, and a lot less stress.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

gallantwarrior said:


> Politico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same here. I want to know what it's like to have three months off every year and get paid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Depending on where you are employed, some school districts only actually pay the teachers' salaries during the months they work.  The individual must budget accordingly, or find summer work, to cover expenses during the months "off" from teaching.  Some school districts will prorate the teachers' salaries so they have a year-round monthly paycheck.
Click to expand...


If you really want to know what it is like to get paid in the summer, while you are off, take a good chunk of your regular paycheck and stick in the savings account so you will have money over any breaks during the year because we don't get paid for those either!  The three-month off in the summer bullshit really gets old, as we have training during about 4 weeks of the summer break for at least a day or two per week, so any plans you have get screwed! Plus, when you get off at the end of May and go back sometimes at the end of July, how does that equal 3 months?  I think someone needs to learn to read a calendar.


----------



## frigidweirdo

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.



Well it's an interesting point.

If you're in trade or something, you can make loads of money for not doing that much work. But teachers, it doesn't matter what they do, they get paid, but never enough for the amount of work they're putting in, simply because there's no money rolling into their pockets from the transactions they performing on a daily basis.


----------



## sealybobo

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


I thought teachers got paid time off. My sister in law makes good money and summers in Greece every year. Plus snow days? Spring break? Shit


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

sealybobo said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought teachers got paid time off. My sister in law makes good money and summers in Greece every year. Plus snow days? Spring break? Shit
Click to expand...


We get holidays for Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, MLK B-day, Presidents Day and that's it.  Every other day off is unpaid.


----------



## Aries

whitehall said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Say what? Pay teachers "per hour per child"? The union would cram a thousand kids into a classroom. Why not deduct a percentage from teachers salaries for every kid that drops out?
Click to expand...

It's not a real suggestion just showing how much teachers are really "worth"


----------



## westfieldguide

I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.

Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.

To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!


----------



## Unkotare

.


----------



## sealybobo

westfieldguide said:


> I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.
> 
> Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.
> 
> To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!


We all work hard, and off the clock.

Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> westfieldguide said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.
> 
> Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.
> 
> To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!
> 
> 
> 
> We all work hard, and off the clock.
> 
> Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.
Click to expand...


There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid. 

Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's. 

So there we are. And the decay continues apace.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westfieldguide said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.
> 
> Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.
> 
> To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!
> 
> 
> 
> We all work hard, and off the clock.
> 
> Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
Click to expand...



Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.

My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.

So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching? 

Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westfieldguide said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.
> 
> Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.
> 
> To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!
> 
> 
> 
> We all work hard, and off the clock.
> 
> Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
Click to expand...


Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.

Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.

Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?


----------



## sparky

_guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation_.....throwing more $$$ will _not _produce better teachers /education.....

proper vetting is the answer.....


~S~


----------



## SweetSue92

sparky said:


> _guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation_.....throwing more $$$ will _not _produce better teachers /education.....
> 
> proper vetting is the answer.....
> 
> 
> ~S~



I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westfieldguide said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.
> 
> Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.
> 
> To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!
> 
> 
> 
> We all work hard, and off the clock.
> 
> Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
Click to expand...

They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.

I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?

What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?

Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.


----------



## sparky

SweetSue92 said:


> This is basic market principles.



Those basic principals don't necessarily consider mental/emotional _stability _Sue

Methinks you caught the jist of that w/in the jocularity i posted

~S~


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> _guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation_.....throwing more $$$ will _not _produce better teachers /education.....
> 
> proper vetting is the answer.....
> 
> 
> ~S~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.

Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.

Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.

And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.


----------



## Unkotare

as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.


----------



## TrueTT

Unkotare said:


> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.



Communication, interpersonal soft skills notwithstanding? Sales isn’t exactly easy stuff, brah. A lot of people will burn out because they don’t meet the personal disposition to succeed.


----------



## Unkotare

TrueTT said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Communication, interpersonal soft skills notwithstanding? Sales isn’t exactly easy stuff, brah. A lot of people will burn out because they don’t meet the personal disposition to succeed.
Click to expand...


----------



## TrueTT

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> _guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation_.....throwing more $$$ will _not _produce better teachers /education.....
> 
> proper vetting is the answer.....
> 
> 
> ~S~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.
> 
> Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.
> 
> Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.
> 
> And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.
Click to expand...


LOL, someone is hella salty. Were you born this way or was the trauma of getting jumped by female teachers what caused it?

Entry-level teachers making less than 45K is insanity. I say this as someone who is making 65+K within 3 years of finishing my undergrad degree in a technical field. Teaching is hard, contrary to what a lot of dimwits think.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.


There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.

I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.

A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions

Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.

That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.

My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.

She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.

What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> TrueTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Communication, interpersonal soft skills notwithstanding? Sales isn’t exactly easy stuff, brah. A lot of people will burn out because they don’t meet the personal disposition to succeed.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You prove that a teacher can not quit and pursue a job in sales. You don’t have a clue what it takes. We work hard. Wwaaaahhh. And we don’t get summers off.

It’s one of those lucrative jobs you couldn’t get because you don’t have any experience. You’re stuck teaching because it’s the best gig you can get.


----------



## TrueTT

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.
> 
> I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.
> 
> A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions
> 
> Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.
> 
> That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.
> 
> She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.
> 
> What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period
Click to expand...


So because you attended High School as a student, you believe that you have special insight into the hardships (or lack thereof) of the teachers who taught you while you were there, of what their jobs entailed?

LOL. Great argument there bud.


----------



## initforme

Is someone trying to say that sales is hard or stressful?  Laughable.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Disir said:


> teacher salary in Tulsa
> http://www.tulsaschools.org/1_Admin...mpensation_benefits/salary_schedules_main.asp
> 
> Salary in Tucson is on page 59
> 404 Message



Your links don't work.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

whitehall said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Say what? Pay teachers "per hour per child"? The union would cram a thousand kids into a classroom. Why not deduct a percentage from teachers salaries for every kid that drops out?
Click to expand...


So teachers are the reason kids drop out?

Man, are you barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## rightwinger

With teachers, you get what you pay for

You want to nickel and dime them, you get five and ten quality teachers


----------



## initforme

I worked in sales for 8 years....then moved into resources....finding good salespeople wasn't all that hard.  I believe teachers are paid in but they have to deal with a lot of defective kids nowadays.  Today's parents just don't get how to raise a kid.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Mr. H. said:


> Good teachers gut fucked because principals administrators and presidents enjoy bloated union salaries.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because tenured bad teachers have priority and seniority.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because they are not related to, nor are they friends of, nor do they go  to the same church as... tenured administrative teachers.
> 
> Today's schools are fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism.
> 
> The good teachers are cast out for wont of unionized perverts, lesbians, Liberal, family and friend.



Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing.  Principals and administrators are NOT part of any unions and their salaries are determined by the school boards.

What the heck is a tenured administrative teacher?

The remainder of your post is your personal biases coming out.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Mr. H. said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah- thanks for asking. Wife did that for 4 years. One of the best that school ever had.
> Admins told her so.
> 
> So...
> 
> We assumed she'd get tenure, so I started looking for a house to buy.
> 
> Wife shows up for work at the end of the school year and the principal tells her flat out- you're fired.
> 
> Reason? None.
> 
> None required.
> 
> Other than the fact that my wife did not attend a church, did not mingle in school circles, was not close to any other teacher/admin in the district, was not related to same, did not suck cock.
> 
> And now... you know, the rest of the story.
Click to expand...


Your reasons are incorrect.  I was given an exceptional evaluation by my assistant principal and walked next door to have y principal and assistant superintendent tell me that after 4 years I was not renewed.  The real reason?  Why should they have to pay me a salary when they can get two unqualified teachers right out of college for the same money?  That was probably the reason for your wife not getting tenure.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## fncceo

I need more pay too.  Where is my thread?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Politico said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone want to respond who makes a living or has made a living as a classroom teacher?  I'm curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same here. I want to know what it's like to have three months off every year and get paid.
Click to expand...


Well, let's start with the false assumption in your reply.

Teachers get 2 months off if they are lucky.  Also, that is unpaid.  Your salary is just spread over a 12 month period to allow you to pay your bills in the summer.  That is really a zero-interest loan to the school board.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.



If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.


----------



## justinacolmena

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good teachers gut fucked because principals administrators and presidents enjoy bloated union salaries.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because tenured bad teachers have priority and seniority.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because they are not related to, nor are they friends of, nor do they go  to the same church as... tenured administrative teachers.
> 
> Today's schools are fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism.
> 
> The good teachers are cast out for wont of unionized perverts, lesbians, Liberal, family and friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing.  Principals and administrators are NOT part of any unions and their salaries re determined by the school boards.
> 
> What the heck is  tenured administrative teacher?
> 
> The remainder of your post is your personal biases coming out.
Click to expand...


Bloated union salaries for school administrators are a reality. The school board, city hall, and the union are all the same. All politics is local, and you can't fight city hall. That's what we were all taught as schoolchildren.

Unionized perverts and lesbians? Oh, yeah. It's the kiddie-fiddlers and the cop-callers. That city hall political circle is all sewn up so tight, there is no peaceful or polite or "legal" way to crack that system, horrible as it is.


----------



## rightwinger

fncceo said:


> I need more pay too.  Where is my thread?



You are overpaid


----------



## rightwinger

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
Click to expand...


I thought if you quit you don’t get unemployment


----------



## fncceo

rightwinger said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I need more pay too.  Where is my thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are overpaid
Click to expand...


I agree.  I still need more pay.

You're confusing merit with need.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

justinacolmena said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good teachers gut fucked because principals administrators and presidents enjoy bloated union salaries.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because tenured bad teachers have priority and seniority.
> 
> Good teachers get fucked because they are not related to, nor are they friends of, nor do they go  to the same church as... tenured administrative teachers.
> 
> Today's schools are fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism.
> 
> The good teachers are cast out for wont of unionized perverts, lesbians, Liberal, family and friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing.  Principals and administrators are NOT part of any unions and their salaries re determined by the school boards.
> 
> What the heck is  tenured administrative teacher?
> 
> The remainder of your post is your personal biases coming out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bloated union salaries for school administrators are a reality. The school board, city hall, and the union are all the same. All politics is local, and you can't fight city hall. That's what we were all taught as schoolchildren.
> 
> Unionized perverts and lesbians? Oh, yeah. It's the kiddie-fiddlers and the cop-callers. That city hall political circle is all sewn up so tight, there is no peaceful or polite or "legal" way to crack that system, horrible as it is.
Click to expand...


Try reading this slowly and let it sink in!

I was a union member as a teacher, but accepted an administrative position as an assistant principal.  I could no longer be represented by the union, nor would any of my salary and benefits be negotiated by them.  I don't know where you get your information, but I have a Master's degree in Educational Leadership where we studied the educational systems nationwide.

Administrators are NOT represented by the teachers unions ANYWHERE!


----------



## justinacolmena

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> a Master's degree in Educational Leadership where we studied the educational systems nationwide.



That's part of the system, cynical as it is. It's the uniformitarian, totalitarian, communist dictatorahip-of-the-proletariat approach to education in America.

School boards (as elected) don't have have any real power, and certainly not to buck the union. It's the multitude of mandatory committee-driven "norms" and "standards" that have somehow acquired the force of federal law even though they were never passed by Congress.

The real power is in those national conferences and conventions that educators with degrees such as yours attend when they are invited.



Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Administrators are NOT represented by the teachers unions ANYWHERE!



Probably not when you're their direct supervisor, although I tend to think of "administrators" as secretaries and office assistants who do not necessarily outrank teachers.

Even so, you are right in that it is the teachers themselves who band together, unionize, and politicize directly with parents who happen to be constituents. There's a school bond issue on the ballot. It's a must-pass because the teachers need a raise. And guess who's counting the ballots at the local election polling place which just happens to be the local elementary or middle school.

A veritable political perpetual motion machine.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westfieldguide said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.
> 
> Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.
> 
> To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!
> 
> 
> 
> We all work hard, and off the clock.
> 
> Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
Click to expand...


I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> _guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation_.....throwing more $$$ will _not _produce better teachers /education.....
> 
> proper vetting is the answer.....
> 
> 
> ~S~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.
> 
> Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.
> 
> Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.
> 
> And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.
Click to expand...


That's great--let's tap teachers out at 50K a year for all we do and see what kind of teachers we get. And make us then contribute to our own health benefits and pensions too. 

You can't escape "you get what you pay for" and that's that. You get what you pay for, all the way around. Always and ever. And young people know it, and that's why they're not going into teaching. And although I love teaching down to my baby toenail, I don't blame them, not one little bit.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.
> 
> I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.
> 
> A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions
> 
> Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.
> 
> That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.
> 
> She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.
> 
> What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period
Click to expand...


I guarantee you would be exhausted after three days in my job put together. You would be exhausted and you would wonder how on earth I do it, day after day, week, after week, month after month, year after year put together. 

By noon today, on this day, today, I will have taught 100 children. 100 children will have come through my door, I will have been by myself, on my feet delivering instruction. By noon. TODAY. That's half my day.

You couldn't do it. Again I say: Wednesday of this week you would be dragging your sorry self to the couch thinking, "How on earth does Sue do this."

I'd put money on it. You have no idea. None.


----------



## sealybobo

TrueTT said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.
> 
> I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.
> 
> A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions
> 
> Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.
> 
> That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.
> 
> She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.
> 
> What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So because you attended High School as a student, you believe that you have special insight into the hardships (or lack thereof) of the teachers who taught you while you were there, of what their jobs entailed?
> 
> LOL. Great argument there bud.
Click to expand...

If you come watch me do my job for 200 days you’d get an idea how hard my job is right? Well we watched you teachers for 13 years and yea, not hard.

That’s why a lot of under achieving women, and unkotare, decided to go into teaching. You couldn’t find something lucrative in business that you wanted to do or you were capable of doing.

And on top of that you found that teaching was harder than you thought so you all admit you aren’t even capable of doing your job well. It’s hard! Waaah


----------



## sealybobo

initforme said:


> Is someone trying to say that sales is hard or stressful?  Laughable.


Don’t make your numbers and you get fired. Ten percent turnover every year. Do ten percent of teachers get fired every year? Nope. You are protected by unions.

Apparently you are either a great salesperson or you don’t know what you are talking about.

Hey teachers! The answers are all there in the book. You don’t even have to take the test. Just give it and grade the kids. 

I know teachers are glorified babysitters.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> _guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation_.....throwing more $$$ will _not _produce better teachers /education.....
> 
> proper vetting is the answer.....
> 
> 
> ~S~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.
> 
> Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.
> 
> Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.
> 
> And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's great--let's tap teachers out at 50K a year for all we do and see what kind of teachers we get. And make us then contribute to our own health benefits and pensions too.
> 
> You can't escape "you get what you pay for" and that's that. You get what you pay for, all the way around. Always and ever. And young people know it, and that's why they're not going into teaching. And although I love teaching down to my baby toenail, I don't blame them, not one little bit.
Click to expand...

You’re just not worth more than $50k a year. You’re a fucking public school teacher. I’d be all for doing away with public schools and go 100% private.

Oh, and you make more than private school teachers. How do private schools find good teachers? My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.
> 
> I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.
> 
> A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions
> 
> Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.
> 
> That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.
> 
> She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.
> 
> What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guarantee you would be exhausted after three days in my job put together. You would be exhausted and you would wonder how on earth I do it, day after day, week, after week, month after month, year after year put together.
> 
> By noon today, on this day, today, I will have taught 100 children. 100 children will have come through my door, I will have been by myself, on my feet delivering instruction. By noon. TODAY. That's half my day.
> 
> You couldn't do it. Again I say: Wednesday of this week you would be dragging your sorry self to the couch thinking, "How on earth does Sue do this."
> 
> I'd put money on it. You have no idea. None.
Click to expand...

Oh please. Wash rinse repeat.

Ok everyone open your books to page 12. We’re going to talk about something I’ve talked about for 12 years. 

I could do your job easy. Oh, and just take a seat. Maybe you need a chair?


----------



## Likkmee

Teachers are fucked for the immediate " racism" spoken any time a 14 y.o. chimp in the fifth grade tell he/she to fuck off. She recommends suspension and the coward principle says "no way---it'll be in the papers by sunup? Lil 6'3" Tyrone rolls in with a pocket full of kryp the next mornin' and says " tole ya so byatch".


----------



## sparky

sealybobo said:


> My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.



sure....

the irony being _your _nephew and _his_ ivy school buds will be paying us *blues *_more_ than they make for _our_ services 

~S~


----------



## sealybobo

TrueTT said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> _guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation_.....throwing more $$$ will _not _produce better teachers /education.....
> 
> proper vetting is the answer.....
> 
> 
> ~S~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.
> 
> Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.
> 
> Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.
> 
> And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL, someone is hella salty. Were you born this way or was the trauma of getting jumped by female teachers what caused it?
> 
> Entry-level teachers making less than 45K is insanity. I say this as someone who is making 65+K within 3 years of finishing my undergrad degree in a technical field. Teaching is hard, contrary to what a lot of dimwits think.
Click to expand...

How do you know it’s hard? Because they tell you it is? Teachers are the biggest complainers about their job. No other profession complains so much that their job is hard and they are underpaid.

You are a public employees. It’s a government job. Go into the private sector.


----------



## sealybobo

sparky said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sure....
> 
> the irony being _your _nephew and _his_ ivy school buds will be paying us *blues *_more_ than they make for _our_ services
> 
> ~S~
Click to expand...

Huh?


----------



## Marion Morrison

Not2BSubjugated said:


> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.




Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.


----------



## sealybobo

Marion Morrison said:


> Not2BSubjugated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
Click to expand...

I agree. And just like at my work none of us know what each other make.

So it’s up to you to go convince the principle that you are worth a raise. Don’t walk in with all your fellow teachers and demand you all get a raise. Most of you don’t deserve a raise. Especially the ones who are complaining how hard it is. Maybe it is too hard for you.  More money isn’t going to make you better or the job easier.


----------



## sparky

sealybobo said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sure....
> 
> the irony being _your _nephew and _his_ ivy school buds will be paying us *blues *_more_ than they make for _our_ services
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Huh?
Click to expand...


Can U hear me _laughing_ sealy?

~S~


----------



## sparky

Marion Morrison said:


> Not2BSubjugated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
Click to expand...


interesting....~S~


----------



## sealybobo

sparky said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sure....
> 
> the irony being _your _nephew and _his_ ivy school buds will be paying us *blues *_more_ than they make for _our_ services
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can U hear me _laughing_ sealy?
> 
> ~S~
Click to expand...

I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?

The kid my nephew brought to play basketball yesterday is going to play football at Harvard. My nephew is going to go to Michigan state university. 

My nephew will make more than his teachers. If not what a waste of money


----------



## Marion Morrison

sparky said:


> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting....~S~
Click to expand...


And correct.


----------



## sparky

Marion Morrison said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting....~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And correct.
Click to expand...


well, i'd ask what your validation may be MM.....~S~


----------



## Marion Morrison

sparky said:


> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting....~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And correct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well, i'd ask what your validation may be MM.....~S~
Click to expand...


Because it's counter-intuitive. The more money government workers make, the more of a drain it is on society.

Government does not produce anything, it just leeches off of taxpayers.


----------



## sparky

sealybobo said:


> I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?





I contract to lots of sorts that have an _elitist_ view of those that work in the physical world , it's all _beneath_ them 

after all, they've spent $$$$$$ on an education.....

they're blinded by _blatantly_ condesending socio-economic views 

makes them _easy_ pickin's , which they'll even _thank_ us for 

~S~


----------



## sparky

Marion Morrison said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting....~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And correct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well, i'd ask what your validation may be MM.....~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it's counter-intuitive. The more money government workers make, the more of a drain it is on society.
> 
> Government does not produce anything, it just leeches off of taxpayers.
Click to expand...


So, it can all be viewed socilaism , ergo unworthy of collectivist order?

~S~


----------



## sealybobo

sparky said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I contract to lots of sorts that have an _elitist_ view of those that work in the physical world , it's all _beneath_ them
> 
> after all, they've spent $$$$$$ on an education.....
> 
> they're blinded by _blatantly_ condesending socio-economic views
> 
> makes them _easy_ pickin's , which they'll even _thank_ us for
> 
> ~S~
Click to expand...

Yea well we came from nothing and our kids are well grounded but I do agree a lot of those spoiled kids will grow up to be major disappointments.

It costs $25k a year to go to Cranbrook. I would expect great things from them. If they became nurses and teachers I’d be disappointed.

My nephew wants to work in the front office of the tigers pistons lions or red wings. He’s got a good head on his shoulders.

And his parents will leave him millions so he should be ok.

And he doesn’t have to pay for college so while your kids are paying off their student loans he’ll be saving for his first home


----------



## Marion Morrison

sparky said:


> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting....~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And correct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well, i'd ask what your validation may be MM.....~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it's counter-intuitive. The more money government workers make, the more of a drain it is on society.
> 
> Government does not produce anything, it just leeches off of taxpayers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, it can all be viewed socilaism , ergo unworthy of collectivist order?
> 
> ~S~
Click to expand...


Did I say that? No, you did.


----------



## sealybobo

sparky said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I contract to lots of sorts that have an _elitist_ view of those that work in the physical world , it's all _beneath_ them
> 
> after all, they've spent $$$$$$ on an education.....
> 
> they're blinded by _blatantly_ condesending socio-economic views
> 
> makes them _easy_ pickin's , which they'll even _thank_ us for
> 
> ~S~
Click to expand...

Look at where most VPs and CEOs went to school. Expensive private schools. Colleges like Harvard and Yale recruit from those schools not public schools.

Are some rich kids spoiled brats? Sure


----------



## sparky

sealybobo said:


> And he doesn’t have to pay for college so while your kids are paying off their student loans he’ll be saving for his first home



Blues aren't saddled with student _debts_ sealy....



sealybobo said:


> And his parents will leave him millions so he should be ok.



and we _luuurrrve_ trustifarians.....




~S~


----------



## sparky

sealybobo said:


> Are some rich kids spoiled brats? Sure


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

justinacolmena said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> a Master's degree in Educational Leadership where we studied the educational systems nationwide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's part of the system, cynical as it is. It's the uniformitarian, totalitarian, communist dictatorahip-of-the-proletariat approach to education in America.
> 
> School boards (as elected) don't have have any real power, and certainly not to buck the union. It's the multitude of mandatory committee-driven "norms" and "standards" that have somehow acquired the force of federal law even though they were never passed by Congress.
> 
> The real power is in those national conferences and conventions that educators with degrees such as yours attend when they are invited.
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Administrators are NOT represented by the teachers unions ANYWHERE!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably not when you're their direct supervisor, although I tend to think of "administrators" as secretaries and office assistants who do not necessarily outrank teachers.
> 
> Even so, you are right in that it is the teachers themselves who band together, unionize, and politicize directly with parents who happen to be constituents. There's a school bond issue on the ballot. It's a must-pass because the teachers need a raise. And guess who's counting the ballots at the local election polling place which just happens to be the local elementary or middle school.
> 
> A veritable political perpetual motion machine.
Click to expand...


This entire post simply shows you have absolutely no clue as to what you are discussing.  You are the consummate dumbass!

If you think "administrators" are secretaries and office assistants and think they are overpaid, you are wrong on both counts.  They are also not represented by the teacher's union.  That makes you three for three on being WRONG!

Why do you dare pontificate on shit you know absolutely nothing about?  

Go back and play with your blocks and let the adults have a discussion.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

sealybobo said:


> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not2BSubjugated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. And just like at my work none of us know what each other make.
> 
> So it’s up to you to go convince the principle that you are worth a raise. Don’t walk in with all your fellow teachers and demand you all get a raise. Most of you don’t deserve a raise. Especially the ones who are complaining how hard it is. Maybe it is too hard for you.  More money isn’t going to make you better or the job easier.
Click to expand...


Please don't comment on education topics until you learn to spell "principal".


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all work hard, and off the clock.
> 
> Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
Click to expand...


I read this from a teacher on Reddit

*Can we concede that teaching isn't REALLY the hardest thing in the world?*




I'm a new teacher and I absolutely think that the job is insanely difficult and eats up tons of my free time, but I think it's important for us to stay grounded and realize that almost everyone works very hard and that there are MUCH more difficult jobs than teaching,

I used to have the same complaints: it sucks to take your work home with you, it sucks to lack support, why do I need to work with these BS standards, and most importantly, I wish I had a "normal" 9 to 5 job.

But the more people I meet, the more I realize how rare a 9 to 5 job actually is. My other friends all have extremely difficult jobs, and they lack many of the perks we have. My accountant friend works 60 hours a week actually in his office; at least we can take our work home. My engineer friend has projects to worry about every night and dedicates a lot of her free time to those. Every customer service job works with ungrateful/nasty people, and they need to act with the same respect/composure that we do. Even when I see people working in fast food/retail, I think "Wow, thank god I don't have to do that."

Additionally, I see so many perks compared to others. I teach middle school in a district that has half day professional developments every month, so between these, field trips, assemblies, snow days, holidays, and meetings, I VERY RARELY have to work 3 full weeks in a row. Even when I do, The school day is only 6 hours and I get a prep (most days) and a lunch totalling in an hour and a half. That's only 4.5 hours of real work a day (almost 4 hours if you count time lost to class transitions), not including testing days/projects in which I just help students who are the ones doing the most of the work.

I don't know how I expect this to go in a forum of teachers, but it's something I've been thinking about.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

sealybobo said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sure....
> 
> the irony being _your _nephew and _his_ ivy school buds will be paying us *blues *_more_ than they make for _our_ services
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can U hear me _laughing_ sealy?
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?
> 
> The kid my nephew brought to play basketball yesterday is going to play football at Harvard. My nephew is going to go to Michigan state university.
> 
> My nephew will make more than his teachers. If not what a waste of money
Click to expand...


Really?  The Michigan State football player is going to make back after he blows out his ACL and walks with a limp the rest of his life with a degree in sports medicine or general studies?


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not2BSubjugated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. And just like at my work none of us know what each other make.
> 
> So it’s up to you to go convince the principle that you are worth a raise. Don’t walk in with all your fellow teachers and demand you all get a raise. Most of you don’t deserve a raise. Especially the ones who are complaining how hard it is. Maybe it is too hard for you.  More money isn’t going to make you better or the job easier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't comment on education topics until you learn to spell "principal".
Click to expand...


This one was cute

Dear Teachers,
Please stop complaining about your "teacher salary". Some of us actually can't make ends meet on much less than your $60,000 salary.
Sincerely, I don't know how I'm going to pay for dinner tonight.


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sure....
> 
> the irony being _your _nephew and _his_ ivy school buds will be paying us *blues *_more_ than they make for _our_ services
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can U hear me _laughing_ sealy?
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?
> 
> The kid my nephew brought to play basketball yesterday is going to play football at Harvard. My nephew is going to go to Michigan state university.
> 
> My nephew will make more than his teachers. If not what a waste of money
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?  The Michigan State football player is going to make back after he blows out his ACL and walks with a limp the rest of his life with a degree in sports medicine or general studies?
Click to expand...

What?  My nephew doesn't play football his buddy does and he's going to Harvard.  And yes, after he blows out his ACL he's going to limp into a 6 figure job in sports medicine.  Is that hard to believe?


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not2BSubjugated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. And just like at my work none of us know what each other make.
> 
> So it’s up to you to go convince the principle that you are worth a raise. Don’t walk in with all your fellow teachers and demand you all get a raise. Most of you don’t deserve a raise. Especially the ones who are complaining how hard it is. Maybe it is too hard for you.  More money isn’t going to make you better or the job easier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't comment on education topics until you learn to spell "principal".
Click to expand...


18 Reasons Why Teachers Need To Stop Complaining About Being Underpaid

I found this on another message board.  They were talking about 

If being paid 17% more than the average North Carolinian for working 20% fewer hours isn’t a sweet enough deal, consider that the above only takes into account base salary—it does not include the rather generous teacher’s state benefits package, which includes zero-cost health insurance (with option to upgrade, see below), 11 paid holidays, a MINIMUM of 14 days (almost three weeks!) of paid annual leave per year, up to 8 days of paid sick leave per year, short- and long-term disability insurance, etc. For those who did the counting on paid leave, NC teachers get up to 33 days (and no fewer than 25 days) of paid absences ON TOP OF only working a 10-month year. I challenge anyone to find a remotely comparable benefits package in the private sector.


----------



## DGS49

A blanket statement that "teachers ought to be paid more," is obviously nonsense.  Some teachers are well-compensated and some not.  The teachers in my own public school district can make 6-figure salaries when they kick into the high range of the scale after a dozen years or so.  Are the worth "more"?  Probably not.

The point is that collective bargaining is NEVER appropriate in the public sector, and when applied to teachers, it is an abomination.  Since most cogent observers, starting with FDR, realize that this is an abomination, many taxpayers are resentful of the wages, benefits, and retirement expense that they are compelled to pay as a result of this specific abomination.

To elaborate, collective bargaining is appropriate in very few situations, and only in the private sector.  It is appropriate where there is a surplus of available workers who can do the work, or where skilled workers are simply not in a position to bargain individually for fair compensation.  Basically, common labor and skilled trades.

In the public sector, on the other hand, the politicians in charge of the negotiations with the CBU have a vested interest in keeping the employees happy, and they are totally insulated from the costs of the wages and benefits to which they agree in the CBA.  So if they pay "too much" or have overly generous benefits, or have incredibly unrealistic retirement provisions, "Who gives a shit?"  The entity will not go bankrupt; it will just raise taxes to pay the cost.

With respect specifically to teachers unions, the teachers unions provide hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and in kind to support politicians who are generous to them at contract time, thus conspiring to fuck the taxpayers year after year.  Successfully, in many cases.

A competent teacher is entitled to a substantial package of wages and benefits, even though they work a job that is, to be kind, somewhat less than full time.  If I were emperor I would establish a national pay scale for teachers with local cost-of-living factors, and require every school district in the country to abide by it.  In today's terms, a starting teacher would be paid about the same as a GS-5 and a "Master Teacher" as a GS-11, fill in the blanks.  Let the locals figure out how to pay for it.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all work hard, and off the clock.
> 
> Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
Click to expand...


I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.

In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.

The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.

Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

DGS49 said:


> A blanket statement that "teachers ought to be paid more," is obviously nonsense.  Some teachers are well-compensated and some not.  The teachers in my own public school district can make 6-figure salaries when they kick into the high range of the scale after a dozen years or so.  Are the worth "more"?  Probably not.
> 
> The point is that collective bargaining is NEVER appropriate in the public sector, and when applied to teachers, it is an abomination.  Since most cogent observers, starting with FDR, realize that this is an abomination, many taxpayers are resentful of the wages, benefits, and retirement expense that they are compelled to pay as a result of this specific abomination.
> 
> To elaborate, collective bargaining is appropriate in very few situations, and only in the private sector.  It is appropriate where there is a surplus of available workers who can do the work, or where skilled workers are simply not in a position to bargain individually for fair compensation.  Basically, common labor and skilled trades.
> 
> In the public sector, on the other hand, the politicians in charge of the negotiations with the CBU have a vested interest in keeping the employees happy, and they are totally insulated from the costs of the wages and benefits to which they agree in the CBA.  So if they pay "too much" or have overly generous benefits, or have incredibly unrealistic retirement provisions, "Who gives a shit?"  The entity will not go bankrupt; it will just raise taxes to pay the cost.
> 
> With respect specifically to teachers unions, the teachers unions provide hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and in kind to support politicians who are generous to them at contract time, thus conspiring to fuck the taxpayers year after year.  Successfully, in many cases.
> 
> A competent teacher is entitled to a substantial package of wages and benefits, even though they work a job that is, to be kind, somewhat less than full time.  If I were emperor I would establish a national pay scale for teachers with local cost-of-living factors, and require every school district in the country to abide by it.  In today's terms, a starting teacher would be paid about the same as a GS-5 and a "Master Teacher" as a GS-11, fill in the blanks.  Let the locals figure out how to pay for it.




The largest problem with you education bashers is that what you spout is nothing but repeated talking points that are nothing but lie.

I was a teacher for 21 years.  I was union member for about half of that time.  Why, do you ask?

There is no almost no collective bargaining in education.  You have it all wrong.

The school board says, "This is the pay scale for the new contract."

The union says, "Sir, may we have some more?"

The school board says, "No!"

End of discussion.

Most people do not realize that teachers often pay 100% of their retirement.  How many others are stuck with that?

I worked many years paying my own retirement fund outside social security.  Did you know that after 10 years I am no longer eligible for disability?  Did you also know that my self-funded retirement will reduce those social security benefits I previously earned when I do retire permanently?

Those politicians receiving campaign contributions are not the same as those getting to decide on pay.  Another assumption on your part that is simply false.

What exactly is a "Master Teacher".  How will it be determined?  You can't just throw terms out there without defining them.

How many GS-5 jobs require a degree?  Answer: Not many.  How many GS-5 jobs require a Master's degree? Answer:  None.

Why do you suddenly want the federal government dictating to local school boards?  I thought you education bashers all wanted to get rid of the Education Department.  Which is it?


----------



## Indeependent

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
Click to expand...

In NY you do.
In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.


----------



## sealybobo

Indeependent said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
Click to expand...

Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.

Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.

Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.

Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.

Teachers make what they should make.  

How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.

Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.

I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.  

And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.


----------



## Indeependent

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
Click to expand...

The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
It’s a farce.


----------



## sealybobo

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
Click to expand...


No doubt.  But lets just talk about the teacher who works hard, does a good job and makes $55K a year which is the national average.  They want to complain?  That's pretty good money for being a teacher.  

And I'm sick of hearing their job is tough.  NOTHING is tougher than sales because you are month to month.  And you can be fired for just having a bad month.  Or when the economy takes a dump.  Teachers keep their jobs until they are ready to retire.

They have stress and take work home with them?  So do we.  But we don't get summers off.

We have a teacher in our family.  We laugh every time we hear she has a day off.  Snow days, spring break, winter break, summers, Martin Luther King day, Presidents Day, 

the majority of states require *180* days of student instruction.

Teachers work half a year basically. 

Including weekends I get 120 days off.   That means I work 240 days.  Teachers can go fuck themselves.  

Now someone earlier said they no longer get pensions.  That's a good thing.  We can't afford that shit and they aren't worth it.  Save a 401K like the rest of us and if you don't like it, go do something else.  

The truth is they chose to be teachers.  They could have went to college to be something else.  Why didn't they?


----------



## Indeependent

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.  But lets just talk about the teacher who works hard, does a good job and makes $55K a year which is the national average.  They want to complain?  That's pretty good money for being a teacher.
> 
> And I'm sick of hearing their job is tough.  NOTHING is tougher than sales because you are month to month.  And you can be fired for just having a bad month.  Or when the economy takes a dump.  Teachers keep their jobs until they are ready to retire.
> 
> They have stress and take work home with them?  So do we.  But we don't get summers off.
> 
> We have a teacher in our family.  We laugh every time we hear she has a day off.  Snow days, spring break, winter break, summers, Martin Luther King day, Presidents Day,
> 
> the majority of states require *180* days of student instruction.
> 
> Teachers work half a year basically.
> 
> Including weekends I get 120 days off.   That means I work 240 days.  Teachers can go fuck themselves.
> 
> Now someone earlier said they no longer get pensions.  That's a good thing.  We can't afford that shit and they aren't worth it.  Save a 401K like the rest of us and if you don't like it, go do something else.
> 
> The truth is they chose to be teachers.  They could have went to college to be something else.  Why didn't they?
Click to expand...

They are spoiled brats but they *do* have one thing on me...I *cannot* wake up 5:00AM every morning.


----------



## bodecea

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
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> sealybobo said:
> 
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> SweetSue92 said:
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> 
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> sealybobo said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.
> 
> In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.
> 
> The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.
> 
> Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning
Click to expand...

Teachers are retiring and young people are seeing that teaching is NOT a good choice of career.   Good luck with shortages.......we are already seeing it in SPED.


----------



## sealybobo

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.  But lets just talk about the teacher who works hard, does a good job and makes $55K a year which is the national average.  They want to complain?  That's pretty good money for being a teacher.
> 
> And I'm sick of hearing their job is tough.  NOTHING is tougher than sales because you are month to month.  And you can be fired for just having a bad month.  Or when the economy takes a dump.  Teachers keep their jobs until they are ready to retire.
> 
> They have stress and take work home with them?  So do we.  But we don't get summers off.
> 
> We have a teacher in our family.  We laugh every time we hear she has a day off.  Snow days, spring break, winter break, summers, Martin Luther King day, Presidents Day,
> 
> the majority of states require *180* days of student instruction.
> 
> Teachers work half a year basically.
> 
> Including weekends I get 120 days off.   That means I work 240 days.  Teachers can go fuck themselves.
> 
> Now someone earlier said they no longer get pensions.  That's a good thing.  We can't afford that shit and they aren't worth it.  Save a 401K like the rest of us and if you don't like it, go do something else.
> 
> The truth is they chose to be teachers.  They could have went to college to be something else.  Why didn't they?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are spoiled brats but they *do* have one thing on me...I *cannot* wake up 5:00AM every morning.
Click to expand...

I get up at 6am and get home at 5:30pm.  That's almost 12 hours.  What time do they get home?  Or get off?  If you say 4pm then WAAAAH


----------



## sealybobo

bodecea said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.
> 
> In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.
> 
> The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.
> 
> Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Teachers are retiring and young people are seeing that teaching is NOT a good choice of career.   Good luck with shortages.......we are already seeing it in SPED.
Click to expand...


You know who is to blame for this?  Teachers!  The schools are even addressing this.  My brother took me to lunch he said the school told our sister in law and her co-workers that they need to stop complaining so much.  

I think them being in a union has something to do with it.  They are free to complain to each other and that negativity is contagious.  If I went around my company complaining like that I'd be fired because I don't have a union protecting me.

Of course teachers believe they are overworked and underpaid.  They've all gotten together and convinced each other of this.  This would be ok if they were private employees who wanted to organize but they are government union workers who actually have it too good.

Funny us people who aren't protected by unions don't complain about our lack of job security as much as these spoiled brats complain about a job they can't be fired from and can leave whenever they want.

And one of them said they could leave for a very "lucrative" career doing something else.  Although she can't say what career she's talking about and for some reason she stays.  Oh please don't tell me it's because you care about the kids.


----------



## sealybobo

bodecea said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.
> 
> In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.
> 
> The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.
> 
> Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Teachers are retiring and young people are seeing that teaching is NOT a good choice of career.   Good luck with shortages.......we are already seeing it in SPED.
Click to expand...


This should be good news for anyone who is going into teaching.  They should be able to pick where they work and that shortage should raise wages.  Supply and demand.  

If I were poor I'd go to school to become a teacher since they say there is a shortage there should be no problem finding a $55K a year job.

How many people right out of college make $55K?  Just don't get used to the money and then in 10 years say it's not enough.  That's only because you spend too much.  When you first started it was a lot of money.  Now  you are spoiled.


----------



## evenflow1969

Skull Pilot said:


> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers


The reason we in the United States are so far behind on math and science is because the income difference in what one can make working for lets say a chemical companie and teaching is so far out of whack you would have to be insane or a boy scout that wants to give it away to teach. Add in they took all the good stuff out of the chemmistry sets. You want a kid to get excited about science hand him some pure sodium. PLay with that shit for a while. If that does not excite your curiosity, well you may as well be laying in a coffin.


----------



## sealybobo

evenflow1969 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we in the United States are so far behind on math and science is because the income difference in what one can make working for lets say a chemical companie and teaching is so far out of whack you would have to be insane or a boy scout that wants to give it away to teach. Add in they took all the good stuff out of the chemmistry sets. You want a kid to get excited about science hand him some pure sodium. PLay with that shit for a while. If that does not excite your curiosity, well you may as well be laying in a coffin.
Click to expand...

Bullshit.  We are number 5 in the world.  So now that this argument has been debunked, why is it that our students are dumber than kids in other countries?  I'll tell you why.  Their parents are Republicans who tell them global warming isn't real and neither is evolution.  

This is why the US is falling behind.


----------



## Unkotare

Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.


Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.



Sorry but what a loser.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.




It takes a lot of time and energy to do what’s right and to try and do right by your own family. It’s not for the weak or faint of heart.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It takes a lot of time and energy to do what’s right and to try and do right by your own family. It’s not for the weak or faint of heart.
Click to expand...

It takes some more time and energy than it does others.  If you only make $30K a year then it takes a lot of time and energy.  If you are waking up at 5am and getting home at 10pm and you work weekends, you are working way too hard.  

If I had a family, I would get home by 5:15PM and I would not have to work overtime to pay the bills.  

My brother is a VP and he works a lot of hours.  Too many hours.  But I remind him he makes a half million dollars a year so shurt the fuck up.  If you work as much as he does and you make less than $100K then maybe you chose the wrong profession.

You can make fun of sales people but I make almost $100K and I only word 9 hours a day.  8 with a lunch.  I'm out the door at 5pm sharp and I never take work home with me.  EVER.


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## Unkotare

Lazy, selfish douche bag. To many self-centered weaklings in society today.


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## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Lazy, selfish douche bag. To many self-centered weaklings in society today.


Why would you call anyone who only works 40 hours lazy?  What a stupid think for a poor person who has to work 2 jobs to make ends meet to say.  Makes you sound jealous or bitter.  

Because we don't have to work from sun up to sun down, that makes us lazy?  You make no sense.    

Do you think it's noble of you that you work long hours and weekends?  It's not.  You do it because you have to.  Or because you don't enjoy your free time.  If no one wanted to hang out with me on weekends I'd get a weekend job too.

Why am I lazy?  Because I enjoy my free time?  What about what I said makes me selfish?  

Did you see what I wrote earlier?  Teachers crying to other teachers is why teaching gets such a bad rap.  This is another reason to break your union.  And if I told people at my company how much I made, I could get let go.  It's no one else's business but your own.  So this is collective group victim mentality.

I'll give you the same advice Repubicans give us.  If you don't like your job get another one.  Go back to school or start your own business..  You are a loser because you weren't smart enough to become asalesperson . or doctor.


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## sealybobo

My brother is going to retire at 50 with 5 mill in the bank.  I guess that makes him lazy?


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## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.
> 
> I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.
> 
> A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions
> 
> Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.
> 
> That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.
> 
> She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.
> 
> What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guarantee you would be exhausted after three days in my job put together. You would be exhausted and you would wonder how on earth I do it, day after day, week, after week, month after month, year after year put together.
> 
> By noon today, on this day, today, I will have taught 100 children. 100 children will have come through my door, I will have been by myself, on my feet delivering instruction. By noon. TODAY. That's half my day.
> 
> You couldn't do it. Again I say: Wednesday of this week you would be dragging your sorry self to the couch thinking, "How on earth does Sue do this."
> 
> I'd put money on it. You have no idea. None.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh please. Wash rinse repeat.
> 
> Ok everyone open your books to page 12. We’re going to talk about something I’ve talked about for 12 years.
> 
> I could do your job easy. Oh, and just take a seat. Maybe you need a chair?
Click to expand...


I take it back that you wouldn't last til Wednesday. The kids would have you chewed up and spit out within an hour. Two tops.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I contract to lots of sorts that have an _elitist_ view of those that work in the physical world , it's all _beneath_ them
> 
> after all, they've spent $$$$$$ on an education.....
> 
> they're blinded by _blatantly_ condesending socio-economic views
> 
> makes them _easy_ pickin's , which they'll even _thank_ us for
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yea well we came from nothing and our kids are well grounded but I do agree a lot of those spoiled kids will grow up to be major disappointments.
> 
> It costs $25k a year to go to Cranbrook. I would expect great things from them. If they became nurses and teachers I’d be disappointed.
> 
> My nephew wants to work in the front office of the tigers pistons lions or red wings. He’s got a good head on his shoulders.
> 
> And his parents will leave him millions so he should be ok.
> 
> And he doesn’t have to pay for college so while your kids are paying off their student loans he’ll be saving for his first home
Click to expand...


Bragging a lot about these nephews. What about your own kids, got any?


----------



## SweetSue92

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not2BSubjugated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. And just like at my work none of us know what each other make.
> 
> So it’s up to you to go convince the principle that you are worth a raise. Don’t walk in with all your fellow teachers and demand you all get a raise. Most of you don’t deserve a raise. Especially the ones who are complaining how hard it is. Maybe it is too hard for you.  More money isn’t going to make you better or the job easier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't comment on education topics until you learn to spell "principal".
Click to expand...


He hated school, he sucked at it, therefore, teachers suck and have easy jobs.

How many times have we seen THAT argument?


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.
> 
> Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.
> 
> So there we are. And the decay continues apace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.
> 
> My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.
> 
> So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?
> 
> Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years.  So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read this from a teacher on Reddit
> 
> *Can we concede that teaching isn't REALLY the hardest thing in the world?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a new teacher and I absolutely think that the job is insanely difficult and eats up tons of my free time, but I think it's important for us to stay grounded and realize that almost everyone works very hard and that there are MUCH more difficult jobs than teaching,
> 
> I used to have the same complaints: it sucks to take your work home with you, it sucks to lack support, why do I need to work with these BS standards, and most importantly, I wish I had a "normal" 9 to 5 job.
> 
> But the more people I meet, the more I realize how rare a 9 to 5 job actually is. My other friends all have extremely difficult jobs, and they lack many of the perks we have. My accountant friend works 60 hours a week actually in his office; at least we can take our work home. My engineer friend has projects to worry about every night and dedicates a lot of her free time to those. Every customer service job works with ungrateful/nasty people, and they need to act with the same respect/composure that we do. Even when I see people working in fast food/retail, I think "Wow, thank god I don't have to do that."
> 
> Additionally, I see so many perks compared to others. I teach middle school in a district that has half day professional developments every month, so between these, field trips, assemblies, snow days, holidays, and meetings, I VERY RARELY have to work 3 full weeks in a row. Even when I do, The school day is only 6 hours and I get a prep (most days) and a lunch totalling in an hour and a half. That's only 4.5 hours of real work a day (almost 4 hours if you count time lost to class transitions), not including testing days/projects in which I just help students who are the ones doing the most of the work.
> 
> I don't know how I expect this to go in a forum of teachers, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Click to expand...


Those accountants and engineers making "50K tops" genius?


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
Click to expand...


Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.

You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.  But lets just talk about the teacher who works hard, does a good job and makes $55K a year which is the national average.  They want to complain?  That's pretty good money for being a teacher.
> 
> And I'm sick of hearing their job is tough.  NOTHING is tougher than sales because you are month to month.  And you can be fired for just having a bad month.  Or when the economy takes a dump.  Teachers keep their jobs until they are ready to retire.
> 
> They have stress and take work home with them?  So do we.  But we don't get summers off.
> 
> We have a teacher in our family.  We laugh every time we hear she has a day off.  Snow days, spring break, winter break, summers, Martin Luther King day, Presidents Day,
> 
> the majority of states require *180* days of student instruction.
> 
> Teachers work half a year basically.
> 
> Including weekends I get 120 days off.   That means I work 240 days.  Teachers can go fuck themselves.
> 
> Now someone earlier said they no longer get pensions.  That's a good thing.  We can't afford that shit and they aren't worth it.  Save a 401K like the rest of us and if you don't like it, go do something else.
> 
> The truth is they chose to be teachers.  They could have went to college to be something else.  Why didn't they?
Click to expand...


Sales people are stupid and went into sales because they're stupid. Who cares if they get fired? just get another job.

(Right back at you. You like?)


----------



## Rambunctious

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.
> 
> Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.
> 
> Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?
> 
> 
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.
> 
> In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.
> 
> The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.
> 
> Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Teachers are retiring and young people are seeing that teaching is NOT a good choice of career.   Good luck with shortages.......we are already seeing it in SPED.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know who is to blame for this?  Teachers!  The schools are even addressing this.  My brother took me to lunch he said the school told our sister in law and her co-workers that they need to stop complaining so much.
> 
> I think them being in a union has something to do with it.  They are free to complain to each other and that negativity is contagious.  If I went around my company complaining like that I'd be fired because I don't have a union protecting me.
> 
> Of course teachers believe they are overworked and underpaid.  They've all gotten together and convinced each other of this.  This would be ok if they were private employees who wanted to organize but they are government union workers who actually have it too good.
> 
> Funny us people who aren't protected by unions don't complain about our lack of job security as much as these spoiled brats complain about a job they can't be fired from and can leave whenever they want.
> 
> And one of them said they could leave for a very "lucrative" career doing something else.  Although she can't say what career she's talking about and for some reason she stays.  Oh please don't tell me it's because you care about the kids.
Click to expand...


I didn't say that. I said my friends did leave for lucrative careers. I am not leaving because I don't want to leave. I love teaching.

I think I see the problem now. Reading comprehension, wasn't it? You have a reading comprehension problem. That you blame teachers for. BTW, guaranteed your SIL thinks you're a huge jerk.


----------



## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
Click to expand...


My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it.


----------



## justinacolmena

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> If you think "administrators" are secretaries and office assistants and think they are overpaid, you are wrong on both counts. They are also not represented by the teacher's union. That makes you three for three on being WRONG!



There's an educational services district. Everything from accounting and payroll to local publishing, printing the employee newsletter, groundskeeping and building maintenance, procurement and purchasing, the buses, all the office work in any case is "administrative" to me, and many of those workers are absolutely represented by the union.

People who work in an office shuffling paper in an assistive capacity shouldn't be so damn sensitive about being called an "office assistant." Large corporations have treasurers and secretaries who are very highly paid, and have a lot of responsibility.


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## SweetSue92

SweetSue92 said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it.
Click to expand...


I'd love to know why this is funny. It's the truth, and has been the truth for years. When I started teaching way back in the early 90s, we DID have those "Cadillac" plans, as they were called. Those days are long gone. I pay hundreds of dollars out of my paycheck now for my family plan, and my deductible is high. 

Truth.


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it


Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd love to know why this is funny. It's the truth, and has been the truth for years. When I started teaching way back in the early 90s, we DID have those "Cadillac" plans, as they were called. Those days are long gone. I pay hundreds of dollars out of my paycheck now for my family plan, and my deductible is high.
> 
> Truth.
Click to expand...

Bologna.....


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
Click to expand...


I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again. 

I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd love to know why this is funny. It's the truth, and has been the truth for years. When I started teaching way back in the early 90s, we DID have those "Cadillac" plans, as they were called. Those days are long gone. I pay hundreds of dollars out of my paycheck now for my family plan, and my deductible is high.
> 
> Truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bologna.....
Click to expand...


I don't lie, but of course you have your narrative, so believe what you want.


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
Click to expand...


"Cushy". In one class today of 25 kindergartners I had a kid pee her pants and another with a profuse bloody nose. That is ONE class today. Sure, "cushy". And of course, I still taught. By myself. 

Clueless, utterly clueless.


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
Click to expand...

Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....
Click to expand...


You're clueless. You're so clueless about what's going on I don't have enough time or energy to even tell you how clueless you are. "Have a student removed from your class"....yeah? Just like that, huh? Boy. Like telling a doctor, "Just prescribe the right meds!!!" 

You're so clueless you don't even know


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....
Click to expand...


"Having trouble dealing with a student"

Yes, that's the ticket. 

Every teacher in this thread, line them up, all these big talkers who could solve all our problems because we have "trouble dealing with students". Students who are severely autistic, otherwise challenged, disabled, on all kinds of meds, and traumatized all kinds of ways.

But hey, "cushy"


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Cushy". In one class today of 25 kindergartners I had a kid pee her pants and another with a profuse bloody nose. That is ONE class today. Sure, "cushy". And of course, I still taught. By myself.
> 
> Clueless, utterly clueless.
Click to expand...

I'm not addressing your daily struggles...everyone has bad days and everyone's job is hard that is why its called work...I'm referring to your life after retirement...believe me what you went through today is worth what is at the end of the road for you....many of us can not say that...many of us will work till we die....in large part due to a lousy education provided in our public schools....


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> You're clueless. You're so clueless about what's going on I don't have enough time or energy to even tell you how clueless you are. "Have a student removed from your class"....yeah? Just like that, huh? Boy. Like telling a doctor, "Just prescribe the right meds!!!"
> 
> You're so clueless you don't even know


If you can't due to the system you are in.....I would advise you to get with your comrades and change the system....


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Cushy". In one class today of 25 kindergartners I had a kid pee her pants and another with a profuse bloody nose. That is ONE class today. Sure, "cushy". And of course, I still taught. By myself.
> 
> Clueless, utterly clueless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not addressing your daily struggles...everyone has bad days and everyone's job is hard that is why its called work...I'm referring to your life after retirement...believe me what you went through today is worth what is at the end of the road for you....many of us can not say that...many of us will work till we die....in large part due to a lousy education provided in our public schools....
Click to expand...


Oh no you addressed it. You called my job "cushy". That's exactly what you said. My job is "cushy"...my life is "cushy". And you're right: I do get school breaks and summers off. But on my work days, my time is totally owned. I can't even use the bathroom on my own time. That's not a "cushy" job, sorry. 

And that is really the problem. The public DOES think teaching is a "cushy" job. Come do my job for one day. I'm not saying other jobs are easy. But neither is mine, believe me.


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're clueless. You're so clueless about what's going on I don't have enough time or energy to even tell you how clueless you are. "Have a student removed from your class"....yeah? Just like that, huh? Boy. Like telling a doctor, "Just prescribe the right meds!!!"
> 
> You're so clueless you don't even know
> 
> 
> 
> If you can't due to the system you are in.....I would advise you to get with your comrades and change the system....
Click to expand...


Clueless. 

Just like I said. Another clueless spouter spouting utter nonsense. But of course that doesn't stop you from running down what you don't understand. The scourge of our generation.


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## sparky

justinacolmena said:


> People who work in an office shuffling paper in an assistive capacity shouldn't be so damn sensitive about being called an "office assistant."



Or having an _ass_ the shape of their _seat _pointed out....



SweetSue92 said:


> Cushy". In one class today of 25 kindergartners I had a kid pee her pants and another with a profuse bloody nose. That is ONE class today. Sure, "cushy". And of course, I still taught. By myself.



sounds like pee pants _clocked _a heckler in the _beak_.....



SweetSue92 said:


> You're clueless. You're so clueless about what's going on I don't have enough time or energy to even tell you how clueless you are. "Have a student removed from your class"....yeah? Just like that, huh? Boy. Like telling a doctor, "Just prescribe the right meds!!!"



Is this a bad time to claim i _majored _in detention hall? 

~S(_dodged the ritalin bullet, and still at large_)parky~


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Cushy". In one class today of 25 kindergartners I had a kid pee her pants and another with a profuse bloody nose. That is ONE class today. Sure, "cushy". And of course, I still taught. By myself.
> 
> Clueless, utterly clueless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not addressing your daily struggles...everyone has bad days and everyone's job is hard that is why its called work...I'm referring to your life after retirement...believe me what you went through today is worth what is at the end of the road for you....many of us can not say that...many of us will work till we die....in large part due to a lousy education provided in our public schools....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh no you addressed it. You called my job "cushy". That's exactly what you said. My job is "cushy"...my life is "cushy". And you're right: I do get school breaks and summers off. But on my work days, my time is totally owned. I can't even use the bathroom on my own time. That's not a "cushy" job, sorry.
> 
> And that is really the problem. The public DOES think teaching is a "cushy" job. Come do my job for one day. I'm not saying other jobs are easy. But neither is mine, believe me.
Click to expand...

Saying you have a cushy job is not saying you never have tough days...how about trying to pay bills when you can't work due to the weather?....or how about when you retire you have to work for Walmart?....come on....like I said I have four family members that have been teaching for years....and not all are in one school system...


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....
Click to expand...


Just for starters, Mr Clueless, you realize that the laws regarding special ed means that removing a kid from a classroom is illegal, correct? You can't just "remove a student from your class", at least not on an ongoing or permanent basis

That is just to give you a taste of how out of this loop you are on my "cushy" job.


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for starters, Mr Clueless, you realize that the laws regarding special ed means that removing a kid from a classroom is illegal, correct? You can't just "remove a student from your class", at least not on an ongoing or permanent basis
> 
> That is just to give you a taste of how out of this loop you are on my "cushy" job.
Click to expand...

You need to change that...its not for the better of anyone involved to not be able to properly conduct your classroom as you see fit...you have a full classroom...I don't care if they are special needs students or not if your school does not have order its your fault....do something about it....don't let a ridiculous blanket policy ruin the education of other students that are there to learn...


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## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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> Rambunctious said:
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> SweetSue92 said:
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> SweetSue92 said:
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> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Cushy". In one class today of 25 kindergartners I had a kid pee her pants and another with a profuse bloody nose. That is ONE class today. Sure, "cushy". And of course, I still taught. By myself.
> 
> Clueless, utterly clueless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not addressing your daily struggles...everyone has bad days and everyone's job is hard that is why its called work...I'm referring to your life after retirement...believe me what you went through today is worth what is at the end of the road for you....many of us can not say that...many of us will work till we die....in large part due to a lousy education provided in our public schools....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh no you addressed it. You called my job "cushy". That's exactly what you said. My job is "cushy"...my life is "cushy". And you're right: I do get school breaks and summers off. But on my work days, my time is totally owned. I can't even use the bathroom on my own time. That's not a "cushy" job, sorry.
> 
> And that is really the problem. The public DOES think teaching is a "cushy" job. Come do my job for one day. I'm not saying other jobs are easy. But neither is mine, believe me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Saying you have a cushy job is not saying you never have tough days...how about trying to pay bills when you can't work due to the weather?....or how about when you retire you have to work for Walmart?....come on....like I said I have four family members that have been teaching for years....and not all are in one school system...
Click to expand...


I'm sorry you have a problem with envy and coveting. That's not my problem. It's yours ultimately.


----------



## SweetSue92

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for starters, Mr Clueless, you realize that the laws regarding special ed means that removing a kid from a classroom is illegal, correct? You can't just "remove a student from your class", at least not on an ongoing or permanent basis
> 
> That is just to give you a taste of how out of this loop you are on my "cushy" job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You need to change that...its not for the better of anyone involved to not be able to properly conduct your classroom as you see fit...you have a full classroom...I don't care if they are special needs students or not if your school does not have order its your fault....do something about it....don't let a ridiculous blanket policy ruin the education of other students that are there to learn...
Click to expand...


It's federal law. FEDERAL LAW. 

Sure, "do something".

This is how clueless you are. I'm telling you.


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> I'm sorry you have a problem with envy and coveting. That's not my problem. It's yours ultimately.


I'm semi retired Sue...I work because I like to not because I need to....I envy no one but I have sympathy for hard working people being taxed to death because teachers have to drive a Honda rather than a Lincoln...


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## Rambunctious

SweetSue92 said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for starters, Mr Clueless, you realize that the laws regarding special ed means that removing a kid from a classroom is illegal, correct? You can't just "remove a student from your class", at least not on an ongoing or permanent basis
> 
> That is just to give you a taste of how out of this loop you are on my "cushy" job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You need to change that...its not for the better of anyone involved to not be able to properly conduct your classroom as you see fit...you have a full classroom...I don't care if they are special needs students or not if your school does not have order its your fault....do something about it....don't let a ridiculous blanket policy ruin the education of other students that are there to learn...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's federal law. FEDERAL LAW.
> 
> Sure, "do something".
> 
> This is how clueless you are. I'm telling you.
Click to expand...


If you teachers put as much effort into fixing your problems and undoing worthless and damaging regulation as you do trying to bilk the tax payer for more...maybe you would be able to fix the broken system you feel so trapped in....


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## Unkotare

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
Click to expand...




 Funny how everyone has a relative who is a teacher when they need to make some bullshit claim that they simply expect will be accepted.


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## Rambunctious

Unkotare said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny how everyone has a relative who is a teacher when they need to make some bullshit claim that they simply expect will be accepted.
Click to expand...

I don't have one teacher in my family I have four....but thanks for your worthless contribution....


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## Unkotare

Rambunctious said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny how everyone has a relative who is a teacher when they need to make some bullshit claim that they simply expect will be accepted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't have one teacher in my family I have four.......
Click to expand...




Of course you do. Everyone does.


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## harmonica

teachers have the monumental/IMPORTANT job of teaching children
they are more important than any politician


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## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I contract to lots of sorts that have an _elitist_ view of those that work in the physical world , it's all _beneath_ them
> 
> after all, they've spent $$$$$$ on an education.....
> 
> they're blinded by _blatantly_ condesending socio-economic views
> 
> makes them _easy_ pickin's , which they'll even _thank_ us for
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yea well we came from nothing and our kids are well grounded but I do agree a lot of those spoiled kids will grow up to be major disappointments.
> 
> It costs $25k a year to go to Cranbrook. I would expect great things from them. If they became nurses and teachers I’d be disappointed.
> 
> My nephew wants to work in the front office of the tigers pistons lions or red wings. He’s got a good head on his shoulders.
> 
> And his parents will leave him millions so he should be ok.
> 
> And he doesn’t have to pay for college so while your kids are paying off their student loans he’ll be saving for his first home
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bragging a lot about these nephews. What about your own kids, got any?
Click to expand...

No


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## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Morrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not2BSubjugated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit.  With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?
> 
> Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?
> 
> Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works.  The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent.  The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.
> 
> Public school unions are no different.  They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators.  They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost.  In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.
> 
> Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural.  It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.
> 
> That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve.  I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside.  With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met.  You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.
> 
> Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with.  I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though.  By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits.  They're just doing their jobs.
> 
> The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions.  Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts.  You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks?  The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's.  Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker!  Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. And just like at my work none of us know what each other make.
> 
> So it’s up to you to go convince the principle that you are worth a raise. Don’t walk in with all your fellow teachers and demand you all get a raise. Most of you don’t deserve a raise. Especially the ones who are complaining how hard it is. Maybe it is too hard for you.  More money isn’t going to make you better or the job easier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't comment on education topics until you learn to spell "principal".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He hated school, he sucked at it, therefore, teachers suck and have easy jobs.
> 
> How many times have we seen THAT argument?
Click to expand...

What about my brother? We went to a good public school and he was the smart one. Good enough grades to get into MSU. They told him he wasn’t prepared. That’s because teachers don’t come from MSU or u of m. They come from eastern Michigan university and Wayne state. The smart kids don’t go into teaching. That’s one reason you aren’t worth more money.

And my brother is now vp of hr making over 500k. So he taught himself how to study in college. His high school teachers did not prepare him.

So now he pays $25k per kid to keep them away from public schools and everything in them.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.
> 
> You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.
Click to expand...

I had a great experience in college after I taught myself how to study and pass tests. What the hell did we even do in high School?


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.
> 
> I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?
> 
> What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?
> 
> Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.
> 
> In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.
> 
> The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.
> 
> Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Teachers are retiring and young people are seeing that teaching is NOT a good choice of career.   Good luck with shortages.......we are already seeing it in SPED.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know who is to blame for this?  Teachers!  The schools are even addressing this.  My brother took me to lunch he said the school told our sister in law and her co-workers that they need to stop complaining so much.
> 
> I think them being in a union has something to do with it.  They are free to complain to each other and that negativity is contagious.  If I went around my company complaining like that I'd be fired because I don't have a union protecting me.
> 
> Of course teachers believe they are overworked and underpaid.  They've all gotten together and convinced each other of this.  This would be ok if they were private employees who wanted to organize but they are government union workers who actually have it too good.
> 
> Funny us people who aren't protected by unions don't complain about our lack of job security as much as these spoiled brats complain about a job they can't be fired from and can leave whenever they want.
> 
> And one of them said they could leave for a very "lucrative" career doing something else.  Although she can't say what career she's talking about and for some reason she stays.  Oh please don't tell me it's because you care about the kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say that. I said my friends did leave for lucrative careers. I am not leaving because I don't want to leave. I love teaching.
> 
> I think I see the problem now. Reading comprehension, wasn't it? You have a reading comprehension problem. That you blame teachers for. BTW, guaranteed your SIL thinks you're a huge jerk.
Click to expand...

No I want her to get hers. She’s a liberal like me. It’s teachers who voted for trump that I want to see get screwed by anti union anti public education republicans like Betsy Devos

Are you a fan of hers?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
Click to expand...


Let's see a reference to back that up.  I don't think you are lying, just mistaken.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
Click to expand...


I believe you will find those people are awaiting adjudication of justification for their being fired.  I also believe that is limited to NYC schools.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.
> 
> You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.
Click to expand...


Most of those whiners would not last until lunch time!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
Click to expand...


Low cost?  Have you seen what I would have had to pay to cover my family?  Mine cost nearly $200 a month just for me alone.  My family was on my insurance coverage for about a year or two of my 21 years as a teacher because my wife's insurance working for AT&T and Charter was cheaper by several hundred dollars a month and it was better coverage than I could get!

Did you realize that those pensions dollars come out of every paycheck we make?

Tenure?  I was eligible for tenure a few years back.  They decided it was cheaper to pay a young female teacher just out of college half of what they paid me, so I was given my walking papers after 4 years, no reason given.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd love to know why this is funny. It's the truth, and has been the truth for years. When I started teaching way back in the early 90s, we DID have those "Cadillac" plans, as they were called. Those days are long gone. I pay hundreds of dollars out of my paycheck now for my family plan, and my deductible is high.
> 
> Truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bologna.....
Click to expand...


Why do you say that?  It happens to be true virtually nationwide!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not personally asking for more pay. But I almost did get physically assaulted by a student today. Again.
> 
> I know people can't stand teachers and the fact that they can't is why there is a crushing teacher shortage. So the people you're going to get going forward are going to suck even worse. There's no way around that now; it's diminishing returns going forward from here. (shrug)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sue its your classroom...if you are having trouble dealing with a student have him or her removed from your class...if you don't it will rob your other students of their education....
Click to expand...


What makes you think that is an option?  Are you remembering your glory days in school?   Disruptions occur sometimes on a minute-to-minute basis.

We couldn't kick out everyone because the media and parents rake us over the coals!  You had to pick your battles.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My health insurance is no better than my husband's now, and hasn't been for years. He's in the private sector. I pay for it every month, hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and have a high deductible every year. Believe it
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you teach?...Afghanistan?...I have 4 family members that are teachers....I know first hand how cushy their lives are compared to others....teachers need to get out of the classroom and take a good look at their fellow citizens and their struggles before you go to them once again with your hand out...you took the job...no one twisted your arm....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Cushy". In one class today of 25 kindergartners I had a kid pee her pants and another with a profuse bloody nose. That is ONE class today. Sure, "cushy". And of course, I still taught. By myself.
> 
> Clueless, utterly clueless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not addressing your daily struggles...everyone has bad days and everyone's job is hard that is why its called work...I'm referring to your life after retirement...believe me what you went through today is worth what is at the end of the road for you....many of us can not say that...many of us will work till we die....in large part due to a lousy education provided in our public schools....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh no you addressed it. You called my job "cushy". That's exactly what you said. My job is "cushy"...my life is "cushy". And you're right: I do get school breaks and summers off. But on my work days, my time is totally owned. I can't even use the bathroom on my own time. That's not a "cushy" job, sorry.
> 
> And that is really the problem. The public DOES think teaching is a "cushy" job. Come do my job for one day. I'm not saying other jobs are easy. But neither is mine, believe me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Saying you have a cushy job is not saying you never have tough days...how about trying to pay bills when you can't work due to the weather?....or how about when you retire you have to work for Walmart?....come on....like I said I have four family members that have been teaching for years....and not all are in one school system...
Click to expand...


Do tell!  Where do they work?  How much do they get paid?  What is the cost of their health insurance?  Do they have to fund their own retirement?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

justinacolmena said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think "administrators" are secretaries and office assistants and think they are overpaid, you are wrong on both counts. They are also not represented by the teacher's union. That makes you three for three on being WRONG!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's an educational services district. Everything from accounting and payroll to local publishing, printing the employee newsletter, groundskeeping and building maintenance, procurement and purchasing, the buses, all the office work in any case is "administrative" to me, and many of those workers are absolutely represented by the union.
> 
> People who work in an office shuffling paper in an assistive capacity shouldn't be so damn sensitive about being called an "office assistant." Large corporations have treasurers and secretaries who are very highly paid, and have a lot of responsibility.
Click to expand...


OK, so you just admitted you are clueless.  No further excuse by you are necessary for being a dumbass.  We all know it now.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry you have a problem with envy and coveting. That's not my problem. It's yours ultimately.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm semi retired Sue...I work because I like to not because I need to....I envy no one but I have sympathy for hard working people being taxed to death because teachers have to drive a Honda rather than a Lincoln...
Click to expand...


Drive by your local high school.  See all of those nice, shiny new cars?  That is the student parking lot.  The car full of early 2000s models and before?  That's where the faculty parks!


----------



## Rambunctious

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Drive by your local high school. See all of those nice, shiny new cars? That is the student parking lot. The car full of early 2000s models and before? That's where the faculty parks!


No one promised anyone a Rolls Royce....


----------



## Rambunctious

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> What makes you think that is an option? Are you remembering your glory days in school? Disruptions occur sometimes on a minute-to-minute basis.
> 
> We couldn't kick out everyone because the media and parents rake us over the coals! You had to pick your battles.


Really Admiral?....pick your battles?....well they would rather pick the battle with the tax payer when they should be doing battle with their school district....


----------



## Rambunctious

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Low cost?  Have you seen what I would have had to pay to cover my family?  Mine cost nearly $200 a month just for me alone.  My family was on my insurance coverage for about a year or two of my 21 years as a teacher because my wife's insurance working for AT&T and Charter was cheaper by several hundred dollars a month and it was better coverage than I could get!
> 
> Did you realize that those pensions dollars come out of every paycheck we make?
> 
> Tenure?  I was eligible for tenure a few years back.  They decided it was cheaper to pay a young female teacher just out of college half of what they paid me, so I was given my walking papers after 4 years, no reason given.
Click to expand...


Hahahaha $200 a month just for you?...LMFAO...buddy you are lucky...holy shit....most self employed one man shops are paying $700 to $800 per month for health insurance for themselves not including their family...most wives of the self employed are working only to pay for the families health care insurance...see?...if they make more than the qualification for a subsidy from uncle Sam they pay through the nose....this is what I mean...these well taken care of's like the Admiral here have no fucking idea what average folks are going through...go ahead...strike! demand more tax dollars so you can all retire in comfort....make asses out of yourselves.....


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Drive by your local high school. See all of those nice, shiny new cars? That is the student parking lot. The car full of early 2000s models and before? That's where the faculty parks!
> 
> 
> 
> No one promised anyone a Rolls Royce....
Click to expand...


When I was teaching my last full year, I drove a 2001 Ford Explorer, my assistant principal had a 2001 Ford Expedition, and the principal had a 2003 or so Chevy Silverado.  We all commuted 45 minutes to school each day.


----------



## Rambunctious

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> When I was teaching my last full year, I drove a 2001 Ford Explorer, my assistant principal had a 2001 Ford Expedition, and the principal had a 2003 or so Chevy Silverado. We all commuted 45 minutes to school each day.


Ill cry you a river teach....unbelievable....


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Low cost?  Have you seen what I would have had to pay to cover my family?  Mine cost nearly $200 a month just for me alone.  My family was on my insurance coverage for about a year or two of my 21 years as a teacher because my wife's insurance working for AT&T and Charter was cheaper by several hundred dollars a month and it was better coverage than I could get!
> 
> Did you realize that those pensions dollars come out of every paycheck we make?
> 
> Tenure?  I was eligible for tenure a few years back.  They decided it was cheaper to pay a young female teacher just out of college half of what they paid me, so I was given my walking papers after 4 years, no reason given.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hahahaha $200 a month just for you?...LMFAO...buddy you are lucky...holy shit....most self employed one man shops are paying $700 to $800 per month for health insurance for themselves not including their family...most wives of the self employed are working only to pay for the families health care insurance...see?...if they make more than the qualification for a subsidy from uncle Sam they pay through the nose....this is what I mean...these well taken care of's like the Admiral here have no fucking idea what average folks are going through...go ahead...strike! demand more tax dollars so you can all retire in comfort....make asses out of yourselves.....
Click to expand...


We are barred from striking by law.  That is just another tidbit on which you are monumentally stupid!

I paid that money out of pocket.  That defies your claim that we had "great medical coverage".  That came with a deductible, copays, and coinsurance.  

That's why I am not in a one man shop dumbass!  How many of those guys paid through the nose to get a Master's degree, teaching certification and two bachelor's degrees?

I know how much insurance can be because I am covered under my wife's insurance since my company doesn't offer it.  her insurance was always cheaper and better than mine and she works for a freakin' cable company!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was teaching my last full year, I drove a 2001 Ford Explorer, my assistant principal had a 2001 Ford Expedition, and the principal had a 2003 or so Chevy Silverado. We all commuted 45 minutes to school each day.
> 
> 
> 
> Ill cry you a river teach....unbelievable....
Click to expand...


Not only are you an asshole, you are a stupid jackass to boot!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think that is an option? Are you remembering your glory days in school? Disruptions occur sometimes on a minute-to-minute basis.
> 
> We couldn't kick out everyone because the media and parents rake us over the coals! You had to pick your battles.
> 
> 
> 
> Really Admiral?....pick your battles?....well they would rather pick the battle with the tax payer when they should be doing battle with their school district....
Click to expand...


How exactly do teachers battle with school districts when it is a FUCKING FEDERAL LAW?

My God, the dumbass is strong with you!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was teaching my last full year, I drove a 2001 Ford Explorer, my assistant principal had a 2001 Ford Expedition, and the principal had a 2003 or so Chevy Silverado. We all commuted 45 minutes to school each day.
> 
> 
> 
> Ill cry you a river teach....unbelievable....
Click to expand...


Just for the record, I don't teach anymore, which makes us even, other than you are a dumbass!


----------



## Rambunctious

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs and would like higher wages...teachers have extremely low cost health insurance and a pension for life after retirement and tenure...which means they can not be fired without a fight...sorry teachers...I do not feel bad for you...in fact you all largely voted for Obama...if anyone deserves to feel the pain of having a socialist as president for 8 years its people like you....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Low cost?  Have you seen what I would have had to pay to cover my family?  Mine cost nearly $200 a month just for me alone.  My family was on my insurance coverage for about a year or two of my 21 years as a teacher because my wife's insurance working for AT&T and Charter was cheaper by several hundred dollars a month and it was better coverage than I could get!
> 
> Did you realize that those pensions dollars come out of every paycheck we make?
> 
> Tenure?  I was eligible for tenure a few years back.  They decided it was cheaper to pay a young female teacher just out of college half of what they paid me, so I was given my walking papers after 4 years, no reason given.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hahahaha $200 a month just for you?...LMFAO...buddy you are lucky...holy shit....most self employed one man shops are paying $700 to $800 per month for health insurance for themselves not including their family...most wives of the self employed are working only to pay for the families health care insurance...see?...if they make more than the qualification for a subsidy from uncle Sam they pay through the nose....this is what I mean...these well taken care of's like the Admiral here have no fucking idea what average folks are going through...go ahead...strike! demand more tax dollars so you can all retire in comfort....make asses out of yourselves.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We are barred from striking by law.  That is just another tidbit on which you are monumentally stupid!
> 
> I paid that money out of pocket.  That defies your claim that we had "great medical coverage".  That came with a deductible, copays, and coinsurance.
> 
> That's why I am not in a one man shop dumbass!  How many of those guys paid through the nose to get a Master's degree, teaching certification and two bachelor's degrees?
> 
> I know how much insurance can be because I am covered under my wife's insurance since my company doesn't offer it.  her insurance was always cheaper and better than mine and she works for a freakin' cable company!
Click to expand...

Poor baby you have had it so rough...can't you see how silly you sound right now or are you that out of touch?....check out what people are paying for healthcare that isn't supplemented...and hey they don't have a pension either....or vacation pay or sick fucking pay....jeeze....


----------



## Rambunctious

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was teaching my last full year, I drove a 2001 Ford Explorer, my assistant principal had a 2001 Ford Expedition, and the principal had a 2003 or so Chevy Silverado. We all commuted 45 minutes to school each day.
> 
> 
> 
> Ill cry you a river teach....unbelievable....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for the record, I don't teach anymore, which makes us even, other than you are a dumbass!
Click to expand...


F you popeye..you are the dumbass...


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.
> 
> In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.
> 
> The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.
> 
> Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Teachers are retiring and young people are seeing that teaching is NOT a good choice of career.   Good luck with shortages.......we are already seeing it in SPED.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know who is to blame for this?  Teachers!  The schools are even addressing this.  My brother took me to lunch he said the school told our sister in law and her co-workers that they need to stop complaining so much.
> 
> I think them being in a union has something to do with it.  They are free to complain to each other and that negativity is contagious.  If I went around my company complaining like that I'd be fired because I don't have a union protecting me.
> 
> Of course teachers believe they are overworked and underpaid.  They've all gotten together and convinced each other of this.  This would be ok if they were private employees who wanted to organize but they are government union workers who actually have it too good.
> 
> Funny us people who aren't protected by unions don't complain about our lack of job security as much as these spoiled brats complain about a job they can't be fired from and can leave whenever they want.
> 
> And one of them said they could leave for a very "lucrative" career doing something else.  Although she can't say what career she's talking about and for some reason she stays.  Oh please don't tell me it's because you care about the kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say that. I said my friends did leave for lucrative careers. I am not leaving because I don't want to leave. I love teaching.
> 
> I think I see the problem now. Reading comprehension, wasn't it? You have a reading comprehension problem. That you blame teachers for. BTW, guaranteed your SIL thinks you're a huge jerk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No I want her to get hers. She’s a liberal like me. It’s teachers who voted for trump that I want to see get screwed by anti union anti public education republicans like Betsy Devos
> 
> Are you a fan of hers?
Click to expand...


You don't want her to get hers. You have said that this entire thread. She makes too much money; she doesn't do crap all day long. It's an easy job. At best she should make 50K.

What a perfect liberal you have turned out to be, and I mean that. Spiting teachers a decent living for teaching children born to crack-addicted mothers, foster children....children, believe me, whose stories you can't even imagine. Running us absolutely into the ground while bragging about your brother sending his kids to Cranbrook with his five million in the bank.

Dude you're like a poster child for liberals. You're who liberals really are when you just barely scratch the surface. So thanks for that.


----------



## Indeependent

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's see a reference to back that up.  I don't think you are lying, just mistaken.
Click to expand...

I have friends who were in the Rubber Room for 10 years.
It’s good to be a teacher in NY.


----------



## Indeependent

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe you will find those people are awaiting adjudication of justification for their being fired.  I also believe that is limited to NYC schools.
Click to expand...

I would think that large Blue States have very powerful unions.


----------



## Skull Pilot

evenflow1969 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we in the United States are so far behind on math and science is because the income difference in what one can make working for lets say a chemical companie and teaching is so far out of whack you would have to be insane or a boy scout that wants to give it away to teach. Add in they took all the good stuff out of the chemmistry sets. You want a kid to get excited about science hand him some pure sodium. PLay with that shit for a while. If that does not excite your curiosity, well you may as well be laying in a coffin.
Click to expand...

No the reason we are so far behind on math and science is that schools don't teach anymore.

We're too fucking busy giving out participation trophies,promoting multiculturalism and confiscating cookies out of kids' lunches not to mention the fact that kids don't ever fail a class anymore or get held back a year and that we have all but eliminated shop classes for those who would benefit far more from them than being forced to take classes designed for a college track


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.



You chose that career so stop whining


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You chose that career so stop whining
Click to expand...




Who’s whining?


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> evenflow1969 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we in the United States are so far behind on math and science is because the income difference in what one can make working for lets say a chemical companie and teaching is so far out of whack you would have to be insane or a boy scout that wants to give it away to teach. Add in they took all the good stuff out of the chemmistry sets. You want a kid to get excited about science hand him some pure sodium. PLay with that shit for a while. If that does not excite your curiosity, well you may as well be laying in a coffin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No the reason we are so far behind on math and science is that schools don't teach anymore.
> 
> We're too fucking busy giving out participation trophies,promoting multiculturalism and confiscating cookies out of kids' lunches not to mention the fact that kids don't ever fail a class anymore or get held back a year and that we have all but eliminated shop classes for those who would benefit far more from them than being forced to take classes designed for a college track
Click to expand...



Ignorant


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You chose that career so stop whining
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who’s whining?
Click to expand...


you

I get up at 430 whaaaa


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> evenflow1969 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we in the United States are so far behind on math and science is because the income difference in what one can make working for lets say a chemical companie and teaching is so far out of whack you would have to be insane or a boy scout that wants to give it away to teach. Add in they took all the good stuff out of the chemmistry sets. You want a kid to get excited about science hand him some pure sodium. PLay with that shit for a while. If that does not excite your curiosity, well you may as well be laying in a coffin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No the reason we are so far behind on math and science is that schools don't teach anymore.
> 
> We're too fucking busy giving out participation trophies,promoting multiculturalism and confiscating cookies out of kids' lunches not to mention the fact that kids don't ever fail a class anymore or get held back a year and that we have all but eliminated shop classes for those who would benefit far more from them than being forced to take classes designed for a college track
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ignorant
Click to expand...


Moron


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You chose that career so stop whining
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who’s whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you
> 
> I get up at 430 whaaaa
Click to expand...





Statement of fact. Any “whaaa” was added by YOU, liar.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You chose that career so stop whining
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who’s whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you
> 
> I get up at 430 whaaaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Statement of fact. Any “whaaa” was added by YOU, liar.
Click to expand...


I don;t get home until 10 PM whaaaaa


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Rambunctious said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was teaching my last full year, I drove a 2001 Ford Explorer, my assistant principal had a 2001 Ford Expedition, and the principal had a 2003 or so Chevy Silverado. We all commuted 45 minutes to school each day.
> 
> 
> 
> Ill cry you a river teach....unbelievable....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for the record, I don't teach anymore, which makes us even, other than you are a dumbass!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> F you popeye..you are the dumbass...
Click to expand...


I loved your reasoned response!

Wait!  You have yet to make one!  Nevermind!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's see a reference to back that up.  I don't think you are lying, just mistaken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have friends who were in the Rubber Room for 10 years.
> It’s good to be a teacher in NY.
Click to expand...


Why are you friends with people like that?  It says something about your values.

The district simply cannot prove their allegations, do they are left in a state of limbo.  Why is that the fault of other teachers?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe you will find those people are awaiting adjudication of justification for their being fired.  I also believe that is limited to NYC schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would think that large Blue States have very powerful unions.
Click to expand...


Yes, and we all know that blue states are in the majority if you throw in the major blue cities that are in red states.

The Atlanta test score cheating scandal says nothing about the hard working teachers outside of the blue dominated city, does it?

All of you that blame the woes of education on teacher's unions should really take a look at Texas.  Why aren't they leading the nation in every category because they don't have a union?  Could it be that the problems have NOTHING to do with the unions and all to do with the massive illegal immigrant population that does not assimilate into our culture and Mexican kids cannot handle the language, so they eventually drop out?

Why do you blame non-existent unions for the problems?


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You chose that career so stop whining
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who’s whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you
> 
> I get up at 430 whaaaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Statement of fact. Any “whaaa” was added by YOU, liar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don;t get home until 10 PM whaaaaa
Click to expand...



Do you lack the character to be honest?


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> You chose that career so stop whining
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who’s whining?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you
> 
> I get up at 430 whaaaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Statement of fact. Any “whaaa” was added by YOU, liar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don;t get home until 10 PM whaaaaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you lack the character to be honest?
Click to expand...

 You lack character as you are supposed to be on the taxpayers clock right now and are posting here


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who’s whining?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you
> 
> I get up at 430 whaaaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Statement of fact. Any “whaaa” was added by YOU, liar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don;t get home until 10 PM whaaaaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you lack the character to be honest?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You lack character as you are supposed to be on the taxpayers clock right now and are posting here
Click to expand...




Waaaa


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> See teacher pay go up.
> See teacher get fired.
> See teacher collect unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.
> 
> You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most of those whiners would not last until lunch time!
Click to expand...


That could be true.  But we aren't the kind of people who go into teaching.  Many teachers are students who either missed/loved high school so much they wanted to go back.

Or they like kids so they want to teach kindergarten or 3rd grade.  

Yea, I might not be the best babysitter.  I might lose control of the class, or get fired for hitting a kid.  But it doesn't seem like rocket science.  Don't you do the same thing every year?  So it should get easier every year.  Maybe it gets boring after awhile or not challenging.

Trust me you teachers, we all go through this.  We all hate our jobs.  I know a cop, he can't wait to retire.  Seems pretty easy to me and he makes pretty good money.  Plus he has a pension coming.  So he's just doing his time till he can quit and go get a real job and collect his pension.

My brother is a VP for a fortune 500 company.  He wants them to fire him so he can get a year golden parachute.  Can you imagine wanting to quit a job that pays over $500 a year?  I'd take it in the ass every day for $500K a year.  So would most people.  Hell prostitutes take it in the ass every day for $100 bucks.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think people are getting sick of teachers crying about how they are underpaid and overworked.
> 
> In recent years the internet has provided an undeniably wonderful platform for teachers to share advice, ideas and experiences. But it has also provided a soapbox for tireless negativity and tiresome self-regard.
> 
> The corner of the staffroom where the moaners always congregate – elaborating on how much better things could be – has always been reassuringly easy to avoid. However, give these people a screen and a keyboard and they’ll exercise their thumbs until everyone’s as miserable as them.
> 
> Secret Teacher: we have one of the best jobs in the world, so stop moaning
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are retiring and young people are seeing that teaching is NOT a good choice of career.   Good luck with shortages.......we are already seeing it in SPED.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know who is to blame for this?  Teachers!  The schools are even addressing this.  My brother took me to lunch he said the school told our sister in law and her co-workers that they need to stop complaining so much.
> 
> I think them being in a union has something to do with it.  They are free to complain to each other and that negativity is contagious.  If I went around my company complaining like that I'd be fired because I don't have a union protecting me.
> 
> Of course teachers believe they are overworked and underpaid.  They've all gotten together and convinced each other of this.  This would be ok if they were private employees who wanted to organize but they are government union workers who actually have it too good.
> 
> Funny us people who aren't protected by unions don't complain about our lack of job security as much as these spoiled brats complain about a job they can't be fired from and can leave whenever they want.
> 
> And one of them said they could leave for a very "lucrative" career doing something else.  Although she can't say what career she's talking about and for some reason she stays.  Oh please don't tell me it's because you care about the kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say that. I said my friends did leave for lucrative careers. I am not leaving because I don't want to leave. I love teaching.
> 
> I think I see the problem now. Reading comprehension, wasn't it? You have a reading comprehension problem. That you blame teachers for. BTW, guaranteed your SIL thinks you're a huge jerk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No I want her to get hers. She’s a liberal like me. It’s teachers who voted for trump that I want to see get screwed by anti union anti public education republicans like Betsy Devos
> 
> Are you a fan of hers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't want her to get hers. You have said that this entire thread. She makes too much money; she doesn't do crap all day long. It's an easy job. At best she should make 50K.
> 
> What a perfect liberal you have turned out to be, and I mean that. Spiting teachers a decent living for teaching children born to crack-addicted mothers, foster children....children, believe me, whose stories you can't even imagine. Running us absolutely into the ground while bragging about your brother sending his kids to Cranbrook with his five million in the bank.
> 
> Dude you're like a poster child for liberals. You're who liberals really are when you just barely scratch the surface. So thanks for that.
Click to expand...


Are you a Republican teacher?  Are you a conservative?  Then yes I meant every word I said about you making too much.

If you are a liberal then I would agree with everything you are saying.  But if you are a con then I also agree with everything you say because cons have zero respect for public school teachers.  What side are you on?  So am I.  So remember no matter what I'm on your side.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.
> 
> You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most of those whiners would not last until lunch time!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That could be true.  But we aren't the kind of people who go into teaching.  ....
Click to expand...




Yeah, the kind who work hard and care about other people.


----------



## sealybobo

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s see, I get up at 4:30 and usually don’t get home until around 9 or 10. Plus working weekends.
> 
> 
> Some of y’all are greedy and some of y’all are lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You chose that career so stop whining
Click to expand...


From the way he talks he likes being worked long hours for little pay.  He said anyone who doesn't is greedy and lazy.  I know that doesn't make any sense to me either but he said it. 

I work 5 days 8 hour days and make almost $100K.  So I'm greedy and lazy.  

Actually, if I was greedy I'd take a weekend job but oh wait I have a life.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.
> 
> You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most of those whiners would not last until lunch time!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That could be true.  But we aren't the kind of people who go into teaching.  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the kind who work hard and care about other people.
Click to expand...

In the business world we say don't work hard work smart.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Some people like to say “I’m X,”  but they are really too stupid to understand what any particular political orientation means. They are just in desperate need of an identity.


I don't know who you are talking about because for 30 years I've been paying close attention and I can't stand Republicans and Conservatives.  

And they can't stand public school teachers.  

Analysis | Democrats list 29 ways they say Betsy DeVos is hurting public education

Here are 29 ways the Republicans have fucked you bra


----------



## Indeependent

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe you will find those people are awaiting adjudication of justification for their being fired.  I also believe that is limited to NYC schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would think that large Blue States have very powerful unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and we all know that blue states are in the majority if you throw in the major blue cities that are in red states.
> 
> The Atlanta test score cheating scandal says nothing about the hard working teachers outside of the blue dominated city, does it?
> 
> All of you that blame the woes of education on teacher's unions should really take a look at Texas.  Why aren't they leading the nation in every category because they don't have a union?  Could it be that the problems have NOTHING to do with the unions and all to do with the massive illegal immigrant population that does not assimilate into our culture and Mexican kids cannot handle the language, so they eventually drop out?
> 
> Why do you blame non-existent unions for the problems?
Click to expand...

It is very possible that many states don’t have unions that can garner the perks of Blue State unions.
I guess I should have stated acquaintance as opposed to friend but a lot of people confide in me because I have proven over 50 years that what they tell me stays with me.


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe you will find those people are awaiting adjudication of justification for their being fired.  I also believe that is limited to NYC schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would think that large Blue States have very powerful unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and we all know that blue states are in the majority if you throw in the major blue cities that are in red states.
> 
> The Atlanta test score cheating scandal says nothing about the hard working teachers outside of the blue dominated city, does it?
> 
> All of you that blame the woes of education on teacher's unions should really take a look at Texas.  Why aren't they leading the nation in every category because they don't have a union?  Could it be that the problems have NOTHING to do with the unions and all to do with the massive illegal immigrant population that does not assimilate into our culture and Mexican kids cannot handle the language, so they eventually drop out?
> 
> Why do you blame non-existent unions for the problems?
Click to expand...

Here is another teacher talking about how hard they work. Don’t work hard work smart.

One thing is for sure. Teachers don’t have a good name right now.

For one they are accused of brainwashing our kids with liberal bias and also look at what you produce. How are american kids doing compared to the rest of the world.

Do teacher share some of the blame? I wasn’t impressed with most of my experience with public schools


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## Unkotare

Some strange assumptions about education by some here.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Some strange assumptions about education by some here.


Come on dude be honest.  Public schools have been teaching the same way for over 100 years.  You think the way you are teaching now is the best way?  What a joke.

Even college is a joke.  You take 2 years of bullshit before you start into your major and when you graduate, what have you learned?  You've learned how to study and take tests.  I never take tests at my job now.  Most people when they are in high school or college say to themselves, "when am I ever going to use this in the real world?"  

AMIRITE?  Of course I am.

So a few years ago I was an enrollment counselor for the University of Phoenix.  Great program actually even though no one respects them.  They didn't waste your time.  As a student you do 4 things.  

1.  Write papers.
2. Give presentations/Use powerpoint
3. Work in teams

I forgot the 4th one.  Point is, they teach all the things employers are looking for.

Oh, and they tell their students how they can CLEP test out of a year of school.  DO you teach your kids how they can test out of a year of school?  Then you are failing your students.


----------



## gallantwarrior

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


You got paid $4/hr to babysit when you were in high school?  How old are you?  The going rate when I was in high school was .50/hr, .75 after midnight.
I do agree, though, teachers should get much more pay than say, administrators.  We have the whole thing bass-ackwards, if you ask me.


----------



## sealybobo

gallantwarrior said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> You got paid $4/hr to babysit when you were in high school?  How old are you?  The going rate when I was in high school was .50/hr, .75 after midnight.
> I do agree, though, teachers should get much more pay than say, administrators.  We have the whole thing bass-ackwards, if you ask me.
Click to expand...

I just did some rough math.  I'm going to make about $90K this year and I figure I work about 240 days.  That's $375 a day.  A teacher who makes $70K will work about 180 days and that is $388 a day.

Now consider most people who work like I do make $50K.  That's $208 for every day they work.

Teachers are overpaid.  Or HIGHLY paid if you consider all the days off they get.

And their jobs aren't any harder than ours considering most of us worry about losing our jobs and teachers in unions don't worry about that.  

How many of us would love to know that we have job security for the next 30 years?  

And I would work my ass off to get summers off.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some strange assumptions about education by some here.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on dude be honest.  Public schools have been teaching the same way for over 100 years. .....
Click to expand...



Ignorant


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some strange assumptions about education by some here.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on dude be honest.  Public schools have been teaching the same way for over 100 years. .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ignorant
Click to expand...

That’s the best you can come back with? 

Everybody else, remember when you went to school? I went to an accredited university just like the rest of you. Think about how outdated our school system is. I’m not talking about higher education because they produce the people who run our corporations who rule the world. Our best and brightest are doing just fine. I have nephews who go to an expensive private school. Harvard will have no problem finding our best and brightest.

But our liberal way will find the diamonds in the rough. Your republican way will continue the status quo where the rich kids only get into Harvard and Yale.

I’m not going to waste my breath. You know you’re producing a shitty product, you just won’t accept blame. You’ll blame the parents and liberals. That’s easy because they are poor. Typically not republicans.

Because you’re a public school teacher and republican, you’re an idiot


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some strange assumptions about education by some here.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on dude be honest.  Public schools have been teaching the same way for over 100 years. .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ignorant
Click to expand...

What about post 224?

You know you can’t make your case by just saying what I wrote was ignorant?

Will everyone else please tell unkotare his behavior is not normal?

Even you conservatives must admit he adds nothing to the conversation.

And he taunts me into helping him derail the thread next thing you know I’m banned for 25 fucking days.

You all must admit it should be a bannable offense to just reply “ignorant” without ever having to say why I’m ignorant.

To me this is the definition of trolling. Or it should be. Worthless pos


----------



## Flopper

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.

You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.

People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.


----------



## Oldstyle

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.



Interesting...so when you pay your babysitter...do you pay them $4 an hour for each child they oversee?  So if you have two kids they make $8 an hour...three kids it jumps to $12 an hour?  Four kids they're pulling down $16 an hour?  I'm guessing you don't have kids nor have you ever hired a baby sitter?

Kind of like the theory though...I managed large night clubs and restaurants with hundreds of employees...so instead of my salary under your system I would be getting $4 an hour per employee!  Damn!  I'm gonna get paid over a grand an hour!


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
Click to expand...

I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?

But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?

I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system


----------



## sealybobo

Oldstyle said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting...so when you pay your babysitter...do you pay them $4 an hour for each child they oversee?  So if you have two kids they make $8 an hour...three kids it jumps to $12 an hour?  Four kids they're pulling down $16 an hour?  I'm guessing you don't have kids nor have you ever hired a baby sitter?
> 
> Kind of like the theory though...I managed large night clubs and restaurants with hundreds of employees...so instead of my salary under your system I would be getting $4 an hour per employee!  Damn!  I'm gonna get paid over a grand an hour!
Click to expand...

Do the math on how many days a teacher works vs the rest of us. If you figure how much they make per work day a $70k a year teacher actually makes $90k if they worked as many days as we do.

So I might make $90k a year but per day that’s $266 a day and the $70k a year teacher actually makes more per day.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> ...I’m not going to waste my breath. ...




Yes you are.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.

Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.


----------



## Oldstyle

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
Click to expand...


Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you get fired, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.
> 
> You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most of those whiners would not last until lunch time!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That could be true.  But we aren't the kind of people who go into teaching.  Many teachers are students who either missed/loved high school so much they wanted to go back.
> 
> Or they like kids so they want to teach kindergarten or 3rd grade.
> 
> Yea, I might not be the best babysitter.  I might lose control of the class, or get fired for hitting a kid.  But it doesn't seem like rocket science.  Don't you do the same thing every year?  So it should get easier every year.  Maybe it gets boring after awhile or not challenging.
> 
> Trust me you teachers, we all go through this.  We all hate our jobs.  I know a cop, he can't wait to retire.  Seems pretty easy to me and he makes pretty good money.  Plus he has a pension coming.  So he's just doing his time till he can quit and go get a real job and collect his pension.
> 
> My brother is a VP for a fortune 500 company.  He wants them to fire him so he can get a year golden parachute.  Can you imagine wanting to quit a job that pays over $500 a year?  I'd take it in the ass every day for $500K a year.  So would most people.  Hell prostitutes take it in the ass every day for $100 bucks.
Click to expand...


No, I wouldn't "take it in the a$$" every day for half a million dollars a year. This is only one aspect of my character that makes me a better teacher than you could ever DREAM of being. And has made me a better teacher for these 25 years than you could ever DREAM of being. Get that? Character, integrity, morals....you know, the stuff that makes people trust you with their CHILDREN. I'm not perfect. But money is not everything. 

Clueless, you are, and so many others here. Honest to pete. I will say it: America so richly deserves the crop of teachers you have coming, because you don't care about what you've got. 

Maranatha


----------



## SweetSue92

Oldstyle said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
Click to expand...


I graduated top of my high school class and with high marks in college. I went into teaching because I wanted to be a teacher. However, if you want to attract the best candidates you have to pay more. People don't want to do that, so you won't attract the best, simple as that. 

You get what you pay for. Period.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some strange assumptions about education by some here.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on dude be honest.  Public schools have been teaching the same way for over 100 years. .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ignorant
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That’s the best you can come back with?
> 
> Everybody else, remember when you went to school? I went to an accredited university just like the rest of you. Think about how outdated our school system is. I’m not talking about higher education because they produce the people who run our corporations who rule the world. Our best and brightest are doing just fine. I have nephews who go to an expensive private school. Harvard will have no problem finding our best and brightest.
> 
> But our liberal way will find the diamonds in the rough. Your republican way will continue the status quo where the rich kids only get into Harvard and Yale.
> 
> I’m not going to waste my breath. You know you’re producing a shitty product, you just won’t accept blame. You’ll blame the parents and liberals. That’s easy because they are poor. Typically not republicans.
> 
> Because you’re a public school teacher and republican, you’re an idiot
Click to expand...


Wait I thought you liberals just loved the public school teachers, union shills that they are. You can't keep your stories straight, can you? WOW


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.  What does unkotare think about this post of yours?


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some strange assumptions about education by some here.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on dude be honest.  Public schools have been teaching the same way for over 100 years. .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ignorant
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That’s the best you can come back with?
> 
> Everybody else, remember when you went to school? I went to an accredited university just like the rest of you. Think about how outdated our school system is. I’m not talking about higher education because they produce the people who run our corporations who rule the world. Our best and brightest are doing just fine. I have nephews who go to an expensive private school. Harvard will have no problem finding our best and brightest.
> 
> But our liberal way will find the diamonds in the rough. Your republican way will continue the status quo where the rich kids only get into Harvard and Yale.
> 
> I’m not going to waste my breath. You know you’re producing a shitty product, you just won’t accept blame. You’ll blame the parents and liberals. That’s easy because they are poor. Typically not republicans.
> 
> Because you’re a public school teacher and republican, you’re an idiot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wait I thought you liberals just loved the public school teachers, union shills that they are. You can't keep your stories straight, can you? WOW
Click to expand...

I told yall yesterday if she's a liberal teacher I support her and if she's a conservative republican self loathing teacher then I agree with her too.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> How many people went to your highschool?
> Usually the A students end up working for the B students.
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I graduated top of my high school class and with high marks in college. I went into teaching because I wanted to be a teacher. However, if you want to attract the best candidates you have to pay more. People don't want to do that, so you won't attract the best, simple as that.
> 
> You get what you pay for. Period.
Click to expand...

How many people went to your highschool?
Usually the A students end up working for the B students.  This is why we don't have more women CEO's..  So smart but you went in to teaching?  Dumb.
No one ever feels like they are being paid enough.  So, when you realized you were underpaid, did you sabotage the kids education?  You said you get what you pay for.  So did you give the kids a sub par education because you felt underpaid?  Maybe you aren't such a saint then.  Or did your students get more than they paid for?


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> In NY you do.
> In NY it’s almost impossible for a teacher to be fired.
> They have a Rubber Room where you spend the rest of your career chilling.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Translation: I had a terrible experience and almost failed out of college. Therefore, all teachers suck.
> 
> You're not a comprehensive thinker. That's why you wouldn't make a great teacher. That why I wouldn't even give you until Wednesday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most of those whiners would not last until lunch time!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That could be true.  But we aren't the kind of people who go into teaching.  Many teachers are students who either missed/loved high school so much they wanted to go back.
> 
> Or they like kids so they want to teach kindergarten or 3rd grade.
> 
> Yea, I might not be the best babysitter.  I might lose control of the class, or get fired for hitting a kid.  But it doesn't seem like rocket science.  Don't you do the same thing every year?  So it should get easier every year.  Maybe it gets boring after awhile or not challenging.
> 
> Trust me you teachers, we all go through this.  We all hate our jobs.  I know a cop, he can't wait to retire.  Seems pretty easy to me and he makes pretty good money.  Plus he has a pension coming.  So he's just doing his time till he can quit and go get a real job and collect his pension.
> 
> My brother is a VP for a fortune 500 company.  He wants them to fire him so he can get a year golden parachute.  Can you imagine wanting to quit a job that pays over $500 a year?  I'd take it in the ass every day for $500K a year.  So would most people.  Hell prostitutes take it in the ass every day for $100 bucks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I wouldn't "take it in the a$$" every day for half a million dollars a year. This is only one aspect of my character that makes me a better teacher than you could ever DREAM of being. And has made me a better teacher for these 25 years than you could ever DREAM of being. Get that? Character, integrity, morals....you know, the stuff that makes people trust you with their CHILDREN. I'm not perfect. But money is not everything.
> 
> Clueless, you are, and so many others here. Honest to pete. I will say it: America so richly deserves the crop of teachers you have coming, because you don't care about what you've got.
> 
> Maranatha
Click to expand...

I agree America does deserve everything that Republicans do to public schools.  So do the teachers.

Senate Republicans are essentially defunding public schools to pay for private ones

Remember I don't have kids and my brother is wealthy.  So you aren't fucking us by voting GOP.  In fact you may help lower my property taxes by defunding public schools.

How do you want to pay teachers more while Trump and Betsy are defunding public schools?  Do you have a brain?  Just book smart.

The New Tax Law’s Subtle Subversion of Public Schools - The Atlantic


The Republican tax bill is a disaster for public schools
So please don't say teachers need to be paid more and then turn around and vote GOP.  Makes you seem retarded.


----------



## sealybobo

The Republican tax bill punishes American families who use public schools


----------



## jillian

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


teachers should be paid more because if they aren't, we will continue to get people in the bottom percentile of their classes going into teaching.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you think of one other profession who complains how hard their job is and how under paid they are?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Police tell us how hard their job is but not that they are under paid.
> 
> Dentists apparently commit suicide at a high rate for some reason.  But they don't complain about the money.
> 
> Nurses I think have a right to complain.  They don't make enough.  No one in the hospital or old folks home does other than the doctors and owners.  If anything we need to give our caregivers more money.
> 
> Teachers make what they should make.
> 
> How Much Money Does an Average Teacher Make a Year? According to the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual salary for a teacher is approximately *$55,000* per year. This means that half of all teachers in the country make more than this amount, and half make less.
> 
> Does anyone think public school teachers should make more?  And I'm not asking public school teachers.  Of course they think they should make more.
> 
> I'm sick of hearing how important their jobs are.  My brother went off to MSU and got his masters.  He almost failed out when he first went there.  We went to a great public school where he was an A/B student.  He wasn't prepared for college.  He didn't know how to study.  Our "great" public school in reality sucked.  So today he pays $25K per kid to send them to private school.  He said he succeeded DESPITE public school.  His kids will go off to college and know how to study.  BTW I almost failed out of college too.  Public school teachers suck.  Glorified baby sitters.  They take credit for smart kids who would succeed regardless.  I think they should be measured on the lowest performings tudents.  We should be able to go look a their students 10 years later and see if they are successful.
> 
> And our public school was great compared to the Detroit Public School we came from.  My 4th grade counselor in the white school we moved to said I basically learned nothing the first 4 years of school.  So how much should a Detroit Public School teacher make?  $40K a year at most.  That's a lot of money for someone in Detroit and unfortunately the parents don't pay enough taxes to justify paying any more.  If you don't like it, don't teach in Detroit or don't have kids in Detroit.  Or send your kids to public school.  If you can't afford that it's not our problem.  You chose to have those kids.
> 
> 
> 
> The NY Rubber Rooms are loaded with hundreds of teachers drawing 90+K a year with full benefits and waiting to retire and get their full benefits.
> They get their raises every year plus raises for taking classes.
> It’s a farce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe you will find those people are awaiting adjudication of justification for their being fired.  I also believe that is limited to NYC schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would think that large Blue States have very powerful unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and we all know that blue states are in the majority if you throw in the major blue cities that are in red states.
> 
> The Atlanta test score cheating scandal says nothing about the hard working teachers outside of the blue dominated city, does it?
> 
> All of you that blame the woes of education on teacher's unions should really take a look at Texas.  Why aren't they leading the nation in every category because they don't have a union?  Could it be that the problems have NOTHING to do with the unions and all to do with the massive illegal immigrant population that does not assimilate into our culture and Mexican kids cannot handle the language, so they eventually drop out?
> 
> Why do you blame non-existent unions for the problems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is very possible that many states don’t have unions that can garner the perks of Blue State unions.
> I guess I should have stated acquaintance as opposed to friend but a lot of people confide in me because I have proven over 50 years that what they tell me stays with me.
Click to expand...


Possible?  No, it is factual!  Most other unions, where striking is outlawed, means they are toothless tigers, beholding to the good graces of the school boards when it comes to collective bargaining.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

gallantwarrior said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> You got paid $4/hr to babysit when you were in high school?  How old are you?  The going rate when I was in high school was .50/hr, .75 after midnight.
> I do agree, though, *teachers should get much more pay than say, administrators.*  We have the whole thing bass-ackwards, if you ask me.
Click to expand...



At GM, the guy who sweeps the floors gets paid more than the CEO.  Got it!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Oldstyle said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
Click to expand...


Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected. 

Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
Click to expand...

I would never bash teachers but on this thread we have 2 or 3 Republican teachers who want respect from us all the while voting GOP who clearly have no respect for them.

It's like a GM worker who's in a union, has job security and making great pay voting Republican.  A lot of them did that.  They vote Republican.  So for these idiots I don't feel bad watching the GOP break unions and reneg on pensions.  Even still these Republicans will blame Democrats for whatever happens.  Always spin.  

MAGA

GM is closing plants. Now its CEO has to explain why to Congress - CNN


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
Click to expand...

All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.

Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?


----------



## Oldstyle

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
Click to expand...


You don't know many doctors, lawyers or scientists, Admiral!  They DO work long hours.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
Click to expand...

What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.

The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week. 
Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today


----------



## Indeependent

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
Click to expand...

Give me a break.
I know a few dozen teachers and they never took chemistry, physics or advanced algebra.
My kids went to private schools where the teachers had hard science degrees.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Oldstyle said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we should pay teachers more is because it's the best chance we have of making America a much greater nation than it is now. If you pay teachers as much as you pay engineers and scientists, you're going to get a lot better people and those people will eventually make it up the ranks of the system and become principals, directors, curriculum designers and even superintendents. Today school systems are force to take whatever teachers they can get when they should selecting the best of the best.
> 
> You will not have the best educational system in the world without the best people.  It's that simple.
> 
> People point to the fact that there are nations which have much better test scores than US schools but are not paying high salaries.  However, it you look at those systems, they will never be adopted in the US.  We will never force children out of school in the 8th grade because they don't have high enough scores for high school.  We will never centralize our education system because we want local control.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't know many doctors, lawyers or scientists, Admiral!  They DO work long hours.
Click to expand...


Compared to most teachers, no they don't!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give me a break.
> I know a few dozen teachers and they never took chemistry, physics or advanced algebra.
> My kids went to private schools where the teachers had hard science degrees.
Click to expand...


Your deflection is noted.  He never said anything of the sort.

Well, your few dozen teachers would be breaking the law in most states.  If they did not take advanced algebra, even as an English teacher they would likely fail one of the required tests in Florida.  I tutored adults in math so they could pass the exam.

Yoru private school teacher made even less than most public school teachers where I taught.  They were all dying to get a chance to teach in public schools if they could pass the certification requirements that their private schools never required.

All you education and teacher bashers show is that your anecdotal evidence is either a lie or you got it wrong!


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give me a break.
> I know a few dozen teachers and they never took chemistry, physics or advanced algebra.
> My kids went to private schools where the teachers had hard science degrees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your deflection is noted.  He never said anything of the sort.
> 
> Well, your few dozen teachers would be breaking the law in most states.  If they did not take advanced algebra, even as an English teacher they would likely fail one of the required tests in Florida.  I tutored adults in math so they could pass the exam.
> 
> Yoru private school teacher made even less than most public school teachers where I taught.  They were all dying to get a chance to teach in public schools if they could pass the certification requirements that their private schools never required.
> 
> All you education and teacher bashers show is that your anecdotal evidence is either a lie or you got it wrong!
Click to expand...


So private schools don’t have a problem finding teachers and they make less. 

And those private school teachers are dying to get jobs in public schools? 

This doesn’t sound like public school teachers are underpaid.


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't know many doctors, lawyers or scientists, Admiral!  They DO work long hours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Compared to most teachers, no they don't!
Click to expand...




Now you’re being as ignorant as the ed bashers.


----------



## Indeependent

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give me a break.
> I know a few dozen teachers and they never took chemistry, physics or advanced algebra.
> My kids went to private schools where the teachers had hard science degrees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your deflection is noted.  He never said anything of the sort.
> 
> Well, your few dozen teachers would be breaking the law in most states.  If they did not take advanced algebra, even as an English teacher they would likely fail one of the required tests in Florida.  I tutored adults in math so they could pass the exam.
> 
> Yoru private school teacher made even less than most public school teachers where I taught.  They were all dying to get a chance to teach in public schools if they could pass the certification requirements that their private schools never required.
> 
> All you education and teacher bashers show is that your anecdotal evidence is either a lie or you got it wrong!
Click to expand...

In NY, math teachers need not be math majors; it’s a a joke.

My main issue is they bitch regardless of their job security, salaries and benefits.
They behave like 2 year olds.


----------



## Oldstyle

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. We are not recruiting the best of the best. Why would the best of the best go into teaching?
> 
> But please explain this to me. So you are saying that someone who successfully graduates with a bachelor degree in education isn’t qualified to teach? How the hell did they graduate then?
> 
> I would think anyone who has a bachelor degree in education would be qualified and good at teaching. If you say they aren’t then that’s a great example of what’s wrong with our educational system
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
Click to expand...


Does the average teacher have a post graduate degree because it greatly enhances their ability to teach their students...or do they have that Masters because getting it means they receive a lot more pay?


----------



## DGS49

In Pennsylvania, in order to get a permanent certification, it is necessary to have thirty (30) post-graduate credits.  Many universities tailor a "Masters Degree" program to solicit this business from teachers.  "With a few more credits than you are required to get anyway, you can have a Master's Degree!"

But these degrees are a joke.  No comprehensive exam, no thesis, and most of the courses are "methods" or "survey" courses in the undergrad curriculum.

But the premium in pay for a Masters is relatively minor anyway.

Also, in order to teach math or science in most cases, it is only necessary to have 12 college credits in the subject, not to have majored in it. Very few people with hard science degrees go into teaching.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Indeependent said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> 
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give me a break.
> I know a few dozen teachers and they never took chemistry, physics or advanced algebra.
> My kids went to private schools where the teachers had hard science degrees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your deflection is noted.  He never said anything of the sort.
> 
> Well, your few dozen teachers would be breaking the law in most states.  If they did not take advanced algebra, even as an English teacher they would likely fail one of the required tests in Florida.  I tutored adults in math so they could pass the exam.
> 
> Yoru private school teacher made even less than most public school teachers where I taught.  They were all dying to get a chance to teach in public schools if they could pass the certification requirements that their private schools never required.
> 
> All you education and teacher bashers show is that your anecdotal evidence is either a lie or you got it wrong!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY, math teachers need not be math majors; it’s a a joke.
> 
> My main issue is they bitch regardless of their job security, salaries and benefits.
> They behave like 2 year olds.
Click to expand...


I taught math without a degree but I had to pass the same test because I went to three different universities to get the same coursework. I knew math better than the teachers with math degrees.

Passing the test is required even if you have a degree.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't know many doctors, lawyers or scientists, Admiral!  They DO work long hours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Compared to most teachers, no they don't!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you’re being as ignorant as the ed bashers.
Click to expand...

I like what he said.  I'll repeat it

Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.

Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!


----------



## Unkotare

Indeependent said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> 
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give me a break.
> I know a few dozen teachers and they never took chemistry, physics or advanced algebra.
> My kids went to private schools where the teachers had hard science degrees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your deflection is noted.  He never said anything of the sort.
> 
> Well, your few dozen teachers would be breaking the law in most states.  If they did not take advanced algebra, even as an English teacher they would likely fail one of the required tests in Florida.  I tutored adults in math so they could pass the exam.
> 
> Yoru private school teacher made even less than most public school teachers where I taught.  They were all dying to get a chance to teach in public schools if they could pass the certification requirements that their private schools never required.
> 
> All you education and teacher bashers show is that your anecdotal evidence is either a lie or you got it wrong!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In NY, math teachers need not be math majors; it’s a a joke.
> 
> My main issue is they bitch regardless of their job security, salaries and benefits.
> They behave like 2 year olds.
Click to expand...





Who is “they “?


----------



## Flopper

The question posed in the title of this thread is why pay teachers more.  If you think it's ok that the US is at the 50 percentile in Math, about the 65 percentile in science, and just a bit better in other disciplines compared to the top 71 industrialized nations then there is no pressing reason to pay teachers more.  However, if you are like most Americans who want our kids to be among the best in the world, then we need a lot better educators, we need better curriculum for teachers, and better curriculum for students. And we also need to recognized teaching as being just as important as other professions such medicine, law, engineering, and science.  Unfortunately recognition in America comes with salary.


----------



## RandomPoster

Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major

  "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"

Educational Ineptitude II

  "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.

The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education. The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174). It's the same story when education majors finish college and take tests for admission to graduate schools. In the case of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE), education majors have an average score that's the second lowest (467) of any other major except sociology majors (434). Putting this in perspective, math majors score the highest (720) followed closely by economics in third place (625). It's roughly the same story for students taking the LSAT for admission to law schools where the possible scores range between 120 and 180. Out of 29 majors, education majors ranked 26th averaging a score of 148. Physics/math majors came in first with a 158 score and economics majors third with 155. Readers can readily obtain this information by a "Google" search using the words "GRE major" and "LSAT major".


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

RandomPoster said:


> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education. The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174). It's the same story when education majors finish college and take tests for admission to graduate schools. In the case of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE), education majors have an average score that's the second lowest (467) of any other major except sociology majors (434). Putting this in perspective, math majors score the highest (720) followed closely by economics in third place (625). It's roughly the same story for students taking the LSAT for admission to law schools where the possible scores range between 120 and 180. Out of 29 majors, education majors ranked 26th averaging a score of 148. Physics/math majors came in first with a 158 score and economics majors third with 155. Readers can readily obtain this information by a "Google" search using the words "GRE major" and "LSAT major".



This article just shows the ignorant education bashers out there.

The English teachers and social studies teachers did poorly in math and science tests,

The math and science teachers did poorly in English and social studies tests.

I was certified to teach both math and social studies.

The GRE tests exceptionally high levels of mathematics so those who are not math or science majors will always do poorly.  I blew it away because of my math background.  

Why in the world would a teacher EVER take the LSAT?  How many teachers do you think could afford to go to law school on a teacher's salary?   That is just stupid!  It is like rating the performance of plumbers on the MCAT!

The reason the less than exceptional college students wind up in teaching is the lousy pay!  Other than social workers, education is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree in America.

You unwittingly just proved why teachers need higher pay.


----------



## RandomPoster

RandomPoster said:


> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education.
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education. The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174). It's the same story when education majors finish college and take tests for admission to graduate schools. In the case of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE), education majors have an average score that's the second lowest (467) of any other major except sociology majors (434). Putting this in perspective, math majors score the highest (720) followed closely by economics in third place (625). It's roughly the same story for students taking the LSAT for admission to law schools where the possible scores range between 120 and 180. Out of 29 majors, education majors ranked 26th averaging a score of 148. Physics/math majors came in first with a 158 score and economics majors third with 155. Readers can readily obtain this information by a "Google" search using the words "GRE major" and "LSAT major".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article just shows the ignorant education bashers out there.
> 
> The English teachers and social studies teachers did poorly in math and science tests,
> 
> The math and science teachers did poorly in English and social studies tests.
> 
> I was certified to teach both math and social studies.
> 
> The GRE tests exceptionally high levels of mathematics so those who are not math or science majors will always do poorly.  I blew it away because of my math background.
> 
> Why in the world would a teacher EVER take the LSAT?  How many teachers do you think could afford to go to law school on a teacher's salary?   That is just stupid!  It is like rating the performance of plumbers on the MCAT!
> 
> The reason the less than exceptional college students wind up in teaching is the lousy pay!  Other than social workers, education is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree in America.
> 
> You unwittingly just proved why teachers need higher pay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. *Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major* (964)."
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Why is it that education majors have some of the lowest SAT scores and some of the highest GPAs?
Click to expand...


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

RandomPoster said:


> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education.
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education. The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174). It's the same story when education majors finish college and take tests for admission to graduate schools. In the case of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE), education majors have an average score that's the second lowest (467) of any other major except sociology majors (434). Putting this in perspective, math majors score the highest (720) followed closely by economics in third place (625). It's roughly the same story for students taking the LSAT for admission to law schools where the possible scores range between 120 and 180. Out of 29 majors, education majors ranked 26th averaging a score of 148. Physics/math majors came in first with a 158 score and economics majors third with 155. Readers can readily obtain this information by a "Google" search using the words "GRE major" and "LSAT major".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article just shows the ignorant education bashers out there.
> 
> The English teachers and social studies teachers did poorly in math and science tests,
> 
> The math and science teachers did poorly in English and social studies tests.
> 
> I was certified to teach both math and social studies.
> 
> The GRE tests exceptionally high levels of mathematics so those who are not math or science majors will always do poorly.  I blew it away because of my math background.
> 
> Why in the world would a teacher EVER take the LSAT?  How many teachers do you think could afford to go to law school on a teacher's salary?   That is just stupid!  It is like rating the performance of plumbers on the MCAT!
> 
> The reason the less than exceptional college students wind up in teaching is the lousy pay!  Other than social workers, education is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree in America.
> 
> You unwittingly just proved why teachers need higher pay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. *Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major* (964)."
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Why is it that education majors have some of the lowest SAT scores and some of the highest GPAs?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You get what you pay for!


----------



## RandomPoster

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education.
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education. The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174). It's the same story when education majors finish college and take tests for admission to graduate schools. In the case of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE), education majors have an average score that's the second lowest (467) of any other major except sociology majors (434). Putting this in perspective, math majors score the highest (720) followed closely by economics in third place (625). It's roughly the same story for students taking the LSAT for admission to law schools where the possible scores range between 120 and 180. Out of 29 majors, education majors ranked 26th averaging a score of 148. Physics/math majors came in first with a 158 score and economics majors third with 155. Readers can readily obtain this information by a "Google" search using the words "GRE major" and "LSAT major".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article just shows the ignorant education bashers out there.
> 
> The English teachers and social studies teachers did poorly in math and science tests,
> 
> The math and science teachers did poorly in English and social studies tests.
> 
> I was certified to teach both math and social studies.
> 
> The GRE tests exceptionally high levels of mathematics so those who are not math or science majors will always do poorly.  I blew it away because of my math background.
> 
> Why in the world would a teacher EVER take the LSAT?  How many teachers do you think could afford to go to law school on a teacher's salary?   That is just stupid!  It is like rating the performance of plumbers on the MCAT!
> 
> The reason the less than exceptional college students wind up in teaching is the lousy pay!  Other than social workers, education is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree in America.
> 
> You unwittingly just proved why teachers need higher pay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. *Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major* (964)."
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Why is it that education majors have some of the lowest SAT scores and some of the highest GPAs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You get what you pay for!
Click to expand...


  Perhaps we'd rather have our best and brightest citizens working as doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, mathematicians, etc. than teaching 3rd graders finger painting and basic arithmetic.


----------



## RandomPoster

Take a look at the top 5 countries in Science Education in a recent study.  Singapore, Japan, Estonia, Taiwan, and Finland.  Small homogeneous countries with extremely low crime rates.  Also, notice how Singapore is top in Math, Reading, and Science.  Singapore uses canings in school.  Perhaps it's not a coincidence.

U.S. academic achievement lags that of many other countries

WORLD CORPORAL PUNISHMENT: SCHOOL CANING IN SINGAPORE

  Also, take a look at US states rated in Education and Crime Rate and you will notice a rather inverse tend, which suggests that culture may have something to so with it.

Education:






  Crime rate:


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

RandomPoster said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education.
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education. The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174). It's the same story when education majors finish college and take tests for admission to graduate schools. In the case of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE), education majors have an average score that's the second lowest (467) of any other major except sociology majors (434). Putting this in perspective, math majors score the highest (720) followed closely by economics in third place (625). It's roughly the same story for students taking the LSAT for admission to law schools where the possible scores range between 120 and 180. Out of 29 majors, education majors ranked 26th averaging a score of 148. Physics/math majors came in first with a 158 score and economics majors third with 155. Readers can readily obtain this information by a "Google" search using the words "GRE major" and "LSAT major".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article just shows the ignorant education bashers out there.
> 
> The English teachers and social studies teachers did poorly in math and science tests,
> 
> The math and science teachers did poorly in English and social studies tests.
> 
> I was certified to teach both math and social studies.
> 
> The GRE tests exceptionally high levels of mathematics so those who are not math or science majors will always do poorly.  I blew it away because of my math background.
> 
> Why in the world would a teacher EVER take the LSAT?  How many teachers do you think could afford to go to law school on a teacher's salary?   That is just stupid!  It is like rating the performance of plumbers on the MCAT!
> 
> The reason the less than exceptional college students wind up in teaching is the lousy pay!  Other than social workers, education is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree in America.
> 
> You unwittingly just proved why teachers need higher pay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. *Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major* (964)."
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Why is it that education majors have some of the lowest SAT scores and some of the highest GPAs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You get what you pay for!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps we'd rather have our best and brightest citizens working as doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, mathematicians, etc. than teaching 3rd graders finger painting and basic arithmetic.
Click to expand...


If you wanted unqualified teachers, you should send them to some private schools in Florida who were hiring high school dropouts to teach elementary classes.


----------



## SweetSue92

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RandomPoster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Educational Ineptitude II
> 
> "The situation is not pretty. Philadelphia schools are typical of poor quality big-city schools. Susan Snyder, Philadelphia Inquirer staff writer, in her article, "District to help teachers pass test" (3/24/04), reported "that *half of the district's 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed."* Other test results haven't been released; Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said he understands "concerns that releasing the data could subject teachers to humiliation. . .." The unflattering fact that we must own up to is that many, perhaps most, of those who choose teaching as a profession represent the very bottom of the academic barrel. Let's look at it.
> 
> The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education.
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> This article just shows the ignorant education bashers out there.
> 
> The English teachers and social studies teachers did poorly in math and science tests,
> 
> The math and science teachers did poorly in English and social studies tests.
> 
> I was certified to teach both math and social studies.
> 
> The GRE tests exceptionally high levels of mathematics so those who are not math or science majors will always do poorly.  I blew it away because of my math background.
> 
> Why in the world would a teacher EVER take the LSAT?  How many teachers do you think could afford to go to law school on a teacher's salary?   That is just stupid!  It is like rating the performance of plumbers on the MCAT!
> 
> The reason the less than exceptional college students wind up in teaching is the lousy pay!  Other than social workers, education is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree in America.
> 
> You unwittingly just proved why teachers need higher pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows SAT average score by student characteristics for 2001. *Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major* (964)."
> 
> "Research over the years has indicated that *education majors*, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!"
> 
> Why is it that education majors have some of the lowest SAT scores and some of the highest GPAs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You get what you pay for!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps we'd rather have our best and brightest citizens working as doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, mathematicians, etc. than teaching 3rd graders finger painting and basic arithmetic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you wanted unqualified teachers, you should send them to some private schools in Florida who were hiring high school dropouts to teach elementary classes.
Click to expand...


It's only going to get worse as classrooms become more out of control with the mental health crisis we have going on, as no one wants to increase pay, as the economy yet explodes and people who can and want to do other things can get higher paying jobs elsewhere. It's all in a downward spiral. And we probably deserve it as all we want to do is point fingers rather than solve any actual problems.


----------



## sealybobo

Indeependent said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of the quality the education teachers get.  It the quality of the people that go into education.  Too many people go into education because it is an easier curriculum than most, and it's almost a guaranteed job.  Even today, many women go into education because it's a good fit for someone who has family and needs to work.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, teaching is not an easy job but the fact is we need better teachers and to get better teachers we need better students going into education.  That will allow schools to improve curriculum.  It all depends on paying a better salary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be honest here, kiddies...the best and the brightest aren't becoming teachers!  They're becoming doctors, lawyers & scientists.  The dumber ones are becoming teachers or if they're ambitious...politicians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of the best and brightest are not becoming teachers because it is a tough life, underpaid, and disrespected.
> 
> Those doctors, lawyers, and scientists don't work 14 hour days most of the time, and on weekends at home, get crappy salaries, and have threads bashing them on message boards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All the teachers I know are making more than the national average as far as how much people make in America.  We are all getting sick of hearing teachers talk about how hard they work and how underpaid they are.  Name one other profession that complains this much.  You can't.  I think it has to do with being in unions.  They have the power to complain until they get raises.  COLLECTIVELY.  So of course they are always crying about how underpaid they are and overworked.   They have another contract coming up so it helps them negotiate.
> 
> Most of us who don't benefit from collective bargaining don't have anyone to complain to.  The guy working next to me might be making more than me.  Maybe if you guys lost your unions then each of you could negotiate your own wages.  If you are good, they'll pay it.  If not, get another job.  Isn't that the Republican way?  Aren't you a republican?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do mean makes more than the national average.  The average worker in the US has a high school degree and about 1 year of college.  There experience level in their field is 4 years. The average worker in the US reports they average 47 hours a week of work.
> 
> The average teacher has a post graduate degree, has 14 years experience and works 53 hours a week.
> Who is the Average U.S. Teacher? - NEA Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give me a break.
> I know a few dozen teachers and they never took chemistry, physics or advanced algebra.
> My kids went to private schools where the teachers had hard science degrees.
Click to expand...


This teacher yesterday said she's been off all week and not going back till January 7th.  

How many days off is that?  Plus summers off?  You teachers are the biggest spoiled brats.  Entitled by your unions.  

This is just teachers crying to negotiate higher pay.  The fact is they got it good.


----------



## Unkotare

More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.


That's not true.  Not true at all.  What came first the chicken or the egg?

Think about it.  Who would even know what you teacher make if you didn't cry you weren't making enough.  

Our response after we hear how much you work and how much you make is that you seem to make more than enough.

So you go on and on about how we couldn't last 1 day at your job.

It's really pathetic to hear people who chose a profession they knew didn't pay well now cry about how it doesn't pay well.  And we all know summers off played a big role in why you chose that job.  Then later you realized you needed a summer gig to pay your bills.  

And didn't you know it was a hard job before you went into it?  Then why do you expect us to know?  You must have done a lot of research before you chose to be a teacher right?  What an idiot you must be.

I defy you to find a thread titled "why salespeople need more pay"

Only a teacher has the balls to post such stupidity.

Why a garbageman needs more pay

Why a doctor or nurse needs more pay fine

But teachers?


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.


So then the majority of teachers don't complain about what they are paid and feel they are paid appropriately?

That's good to know.  I agree with them.  I never said you were overpaid but you are not under paid.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
Click to expand...



This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
Click to expand...

If you had 50 teachers and 50 non teachers here I would say you'd get about half of us to agree with you so no.  100% of teachers cry they don't make enough and work too hard and NEED more pay and only 50% of us think you are fos.  Maybe 75% of us think you are fos but that still means you and your apologists outnumber us.

But don't worry Republicans are in charge.  You public school teachers won't be getting any raises anytime soon.

Weren't you guys thinking about striking not too long ago for more pay?  Did you win?  Thank your union then stupid.

*Trump Meets With Teachers as Strikes Spread Across US*

*BTW, you are a republican so you agree with us that teachers are not underpaid.*

*As U.S. President Donald Trump meets Wednesday at the White House with the 2018 Teachers of the Year, public school teacher strikes are escalating across the country while the administration is emphasizing private alternatives to public education.

The latest strike is underway in the southwestern state of Arizona, where most schools were forced to close after thousands of teachers walked off the job last week, demanding higher pay and more funding for public education.

The Arizona strike follows others in recent months in Colorado, Kentucky, Oklahoma, West Virginia and Washington, D.C.

Many of the strikes have occurred in Republican-controlled “red” states, evolving into the “Red for Ed” movement that has surprised the nation’s education community and intensified pressure on state legislators.

Looks like Betsy would agree with us too.

DeVos, in a meeting Monday in Washington with Teachers of the Year from states across the country, reportedly engaged in a “verbal sparring match” during an exchange of ideas.

Oklahoma’s Teacher of the Year, John Hazell, a Republican who voted for Trump, told DeVos that her preference for alternatives to public schools were draining resources from public school systems

When DeVos responded that students may be selecting alternatives to escape low-performing public schools, Hazell said, “You’re the one creating ‘bad’ schools by taking all the kids that can afford to get out and leaving the kids who can’t behind,” a reply that reportedly drew supportive responses from others at the meeting.

DeVos has spent decades promoting the growth of charter schools, which are funded with taxpayer money, but run by private companies. She has also championed other private education programs that are funded with public money.



*


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
Click to expand...

My youngest nephew is struggling at the best private school in Michigan.  They say he will be a A B student if he goes to public school.  It's not even close.  And yet private school teachers make less.  They're killing you and they make less.  Maybe Devos is right.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
Click to expand...

.


----------



## Andylusion

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.



All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.   

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
Click to expand...


…what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.

In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.

But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.

School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split

Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.

The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.

On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My youngest nephew is struggling at the best private school in Michigan.  They say he will be a A B student if he goes to public school.  It's not even close.  And yet private school teachers make less.  They're killing you and they make less.  Maybe Devos is right.
Click to expand...

I have a grandson that goes to one of the best private schools in Washington.  It's a great school.  Tuition is about $20,000 a year plus additional costs for lunches, extra-curricula activities, transportation, etc.  Class sizes are about 15 students.  Teachers keep parents informed about classroom activities and their child's progress on a weekly basis.   Almost all the students come from affluent families. No free and reduce lunches here.  There are few blacks, Latinos, juvenile delinquents, or kids with serious special education problems.  

The best private schools are the best because they choose their students and no they don't underpay their teachers.  They pay salaries comparable to local public schools.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Think about what I just showed you.  Most people think teachers are underpaid, until they find out how much they fucking make.

And the public is anti union, which is how you all got such good pay.  If you were in the real world only the good teachers would be getting the kind of pay you all get.  So most of you are overpaid.

I pray the Republicans break the teachers union.  Or is it prey?  I don't know I went to public school  lol


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My youngest nephew is struggling at the best private school in Michigan.  They say he will be a A B student if he goes to public school.  It's not even close.  And yet private school teachers make less.  They're killing you and they make less.  Maybe Devos is right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a grandson that goes to one of the best private schools in Washington.  It's a great school.  Tuition is about $20,000 a year plus additional costs for lunches, extra-curricula activities, transportation, etc.  Class sizes are about 15 students.  Teachers keep parents informed about classroom activities and their child progress on weekly basis.   Almost all the students come from affluent families. No free and reduce lunches here.  There are few blacks, Latinos, juvenile delinquents, or kids with serious special education problems.
> 
> The best private schools are the best because they choose their students and no they don't underpay their teachers.  They pay salaries comparable to local public schools.
Click to expand...


My nephews go to the best private school in Michigan.  About $25K a year.  

They chose my nephew because his brother goes there.  He's not cutting it.  He's getting all C's and doing homework 2 hours every night.  He's going to have to pick an easier school.  In a public school they say he would be getting a lot more B's and a few A's.  We will see where he goes.  

Those teachers dont' make anywhere near what public school teachers make.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Cranbrook-Schools-Salaries-E260573.htm

I have been working at Cranbrook Schools full-time (More than 3 years)

Pros

Stable, professional environment. Excellent academics. Strong, mostly supportive faculty.

Cons

Low salary. Little free time during school year if you are living on campus. Less privacy if living in one of the dormitories.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
Click to expand...

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> More people complain about teachers than teachers complain about pay.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
Click to expand...


Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.


----------



## Flopper

Andylusion said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.

Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.

Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
Click to expand...


I say end public schools and every parent pay for private schooling.  Back in the 1800's we needed to educate the masses and we also needed to encourage people to have lots of kids.  

How have we done educating the masses?  

40 percent of adults can't cover a $400 emergency expense, Fed survey shows

So stop wasting money.  Plus, we are overpopulated.  We came up with public schools to encourage people to have more kids.  Look, free schooling!!!

Today I would like to discourage the masses from having more kids.  Taking away food stamps and public schools would be a good start.  How many poor people would not have kids if they had to pay $5K a year for private school?  GOOD!


----------



## Andylusion

Flopper said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
Click to expand...


Old saying "He who can, does.  He who cannot, teaches".

Most people bypass lucrative fields?  You assume.  Most can't hardly teach in their field, let alone be successful in the private sector.

You want to make that argument with me, show me the number of people who were in fact making 6-figure incomes or were extremely high in their field, and ditched it all to become a teacher.    The number of those people is exceptionally small.

The rest of that is false.   You look at spending per pupil, verses the quality of educational outcomes, and there is in inverse relationship.   Here in Columbus Ohio, I compared relative spending per pupil, verses the 2nd year, and 4th year students.   There was a clear connection between lower spending, and higher scores.

Equally I see no evidence that reduced class room sizes equals better educational outcomes.

A Libertarian Builds Low-Cost Private Schools for the Masses


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Old saying "He who can, does.  He who cannot, teaches".
> 
> Most people bypass lucrative fields?  You assume.  Most can't hardly teach in their field, let alone be successful in the private sector.
> 
> You want to make that argument with me, show me the number of people who were in fact making 6-figure incomes or were extremely high in their field, and ditched it all to become a teacher.    The number of those people is exceptionally small.
> 
> The rest of that is false.   You look at spending per pupil, verses the quality of educational outcomes, and there is in inverse relationship.   Here in Columbus Ohio, I compared relative spending per pupil, verses the 2nd year, and 4th year students.   There was a clear connection between lower spending, and higher scores.
> 
> Equally I see no evidence that reduced class room sizes equals better educational outcomes.
> 
> A Libertarian Builds Low-Cost Private Schools for the Masses
Click to expand...

I'm not buying that "most bypass lucrative fields" line either.  If someone went to school and was cut out for marketing, they went into marketing.  If they were talented enough to become a doctor they did.  Engineering.  Etc.  If they were attracted to the business world maybe they went into HR or IT or whatever it is they were good at.

People who go into teaching have all these other degrees as options.  They chose to be teachers because they didn't know what else they wanted to do. THey took 2 years of community college classes and then just like us they had a choice to make.

No one passed on a lucrative field because they were noble or righteous.  Please don't tell me all the average teachers I know passed on lucrative fields because they were noble or righteous.  That's just bullshit.  

Just like sales is all I was ever really cut out to do, that's the only degree that they felt comfortable doing.

And when you graduate with a Marketing or HR degree you also have to figure out who's going to hire you when you have no experience.  Teachers don't have to worry about that.  They all get hired.  That must play a role in why they pick teaching not to mention the job security.


----------



## anotherlife

Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.


----------



## skye

There are Teachers.....

and teachers...

the crazy ones.....the progressive teachers ,those  against family and Christianity ...those teachers against decency and tradition...

I say ....let them starve or find another job,

the country doesn't need you.


----------



## sealybobo

anotherlife said:


> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.


Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
Click to expand...



Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true.  Not true at all.  ...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
Click to expand...

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
Click to expand...

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
Click to expand...


None of that bullshit you described happens today.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
Click to expand...




Andylusion said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Old saying "He who can, does.  He who cannot, teaches".
> 
> Most people bypass lucrative fields?  You assume.  Most can't hardly teach in their field, let alone be successful in the private sector.
> 
> You want to make that argument with me, show me the number of people who were in fact making 6-figure incomes or were extremely high in their field, and ditched it all to become a teacher.    The number of those people is exceptionally small.
> 
> The rest of that is false.   You look at spending per pupil, verses the quality of educational outcomes, and there is in inverse relationship.   *Here in Columbus Ohio, I compared relative spending per pupil, verses the 2nd year, and 4th year students.   There was a clear connection between lower spending, and higher scores.*
> 
> Equally I see no evidence that reduced class room sizes equals better educational outcomes.
> 
> A Libertarian Builds Low-Cost Private Schools for the Masses
Click to expand...


You must have had a dumbass teacher if you believe that correlation equals causation.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
Click to expand...


This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.


----------



## SweetSue92

Andylusion said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Old saying "He who can, does.  He who cannot, teaches".
> 
> Most people bypass lucrative fields?  You assume.  Most can't hardly teach in their field, let alone be successful in the private sector.
> 
> You want to make that argument with me, show me the number of people who were in fact making 6-figure incomes or were extremely high in their field, and ditched it all to become a teacher.    The number of those people is exceptionally small.
> 
> The rest of that is false.   You look at spending per pupil, verses the quality of educational outcomes, and there is in inverse relationship.   Here in Columbus Ohio, I compared relative spending per pupil, verses the 2nd year, and 4th year students.   There was a clear connection between lower spending, and higher scores.
> 
> Equally I see no evidence that reduced class room sizes equals better educational outcomes.
> 
> A Libertarian Builds Low-Cost Private Schools for the Masses
Click to expand...


You have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Old saying "He who can, does.  He who cannot, teaches".
> 
> Most people bypass lucrative fields?  You assume.  Most can't hardly teach in their field, let alone be successful in the private sector.
> 
> You want to make that argument with me, show me the number of people who were in fact making 6-figure incomes or were extremely high in their field, and ditched it all to become a teacher.    The number of those people is exceptionally small.
> 
> The rest of that is false.   You look at spending per pupil, verses the quality of educational outcomes, and there is in inverse relationship.   Here in Columbus Ohio, I compared relative spending per pupil, verses the 2nd year, and 4th year students.   There was a clear connection between lower spending, and higher scores.
> 
> Equally I see no evidence that reduced class room sizes equals better educational outcomes.
> 
> A Libertarian Builds Low-Cost Private Schools for the Masses
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not buying that "most bypass lucrative fields" line either.  If someone went to school and was cut out for marketing, they went into marketing.  If they were talented enough to become a doctor they did.  Engineering.  Etc.  If they were attracted to the business world maybe they went into HR or IT or whatever it is they were good at.
> 
> People who go into teaching have all these other degrees as options.  They chose to be teachers because they didn't know what else they wanted to do. THey took 2 years of community college classes and then just like us they had a choice to make.
> 
> No one passed on a lucrative field because they were noble or righteous.  Please don't tell me all the average teachers I know passed on lucrative fields because they were noble or righteous.  That's just bullshit.
> 
> Just like sales is all I was ever really cut out to do, that's the only degree that they felt comfortable doing.
> 
> And when you graduate with a Marketing or HR degree you also have to figure out who's going to hire you when you have no experience.  Teachers don't have to worry about that.  They all get hired.  That must play a role in why they pick teaching not to mention the job security.
Click to expand...


You think in small terms, in limited terms, and if people don't think just like you, you can't imagine HOW they think.

Frankly, you would be a horrid teacher. And since you would be a horrid teacher, you really hate teachers and can't imagine why anyone would be one, except that it's "easy".


----------



## anotherlife

skye said:


> There are Teachers.....
> 
> and teachers...
> 
> the crazy ones.....the progressive teachers ,those  against family and Christianity ...those teachers against decency and tradition...
> 
> I say ....let them starve or find another job,
> 
> the country doesn't need you.



If schools and teaching was not a public sector institution, then none of these problems would exist.


----------



## anotherlife

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
Click to expand...




Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
Click to expand...

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
Click to expand...




 He has a long record of lying.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
Click to expand...

Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th.  Still a lot more days than we get off you whiny teacher bitches.

That's 19 fucking days off in a row.  I would kill for 19 fucking days off you fucking pussy cry baby teachers.  Pathetic.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has a long record of lying.
Click to expand...

No I don't.


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
Click to expand...

Still a lot of days off.  I get 15 days a year vacation total.  You teachers are going to get 17 days off in a row?  Go fuck yourselves when you cry about how bad you got it.  Ridiculous.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Old saying "He who can, does.  He who cannot, teaches".
> 
> Most people bypass lucrative fields?  You assume.  Most can't hardly teach in their field, let alone be successful in the private sector.
> 
> You want to make that argument with me, show me the number of people who were in fact making 6-figure incomes or were extremely high in their field, and ditched it all to become a teacher.    The number of those people is exceptionally small.
> 
> The rest of that is false.   You look at spending per pupil, verses the quality of educational outcomes, and there is in inverse relationship.   Here in Columbus Ohio, I compared relative spending per pupil, verses the 2nd year, and 4th year students.   There was a clear connection between lower spending, and higher scores.
> 
> Equally I see no evidence that reduced class room sizes equals better educational outcomes.
> 
> A Libertarian Builds Low-Cost Private Schools for the Masses
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not buying that "most bypass lucrative fields" line either.  If someone went to school and was cut out for marketing, they went into marketing.  If they were talented enough to become a doctor they did.  Engineering.  Etc.  If they were attracted to the business world maybe they went into HR or IT or whatever it is they were good at.
> 
> People who go into teaching have all these other degrees as options.  They chose to be teachers because they didn't know what else they wanted to do. THey took 2 years of community college classes and then just like us they had a choice to make.
> 
> No one passed on a lucrative field because they were noble or righteous.  Please don't tell me all the average teachers I know passed on lucrative fields because they were noble or righteous.  That's just bullshit.
> 
> Just like sales is all I was ever really cut out to do, that's the only degree that they felt comfortable doing.
> 
> And when you graduate with a Marketing or HR degree you also have to figure out who's going to hire you when you have no experience.  Teachers don't have to worry about that.  They all get hired.  That must play a role in why they pick teaching not to mention the job security.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You think in small terms, in limited terms, and if people don't think just like you, you can't imagine HOW they think.
> 
> Frankly, you would be a horrid teacher. And since you would be a horrid teacher, you really hate teachers and can't imagine why anyone would be one, except that it's "easy".
Click to expand...


Didn't I already explain to you that it's just my republican side of my brain that hates you government public union workers.  OTher than that I love you all.  Except Unkotare.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has a long record of lying.
Click to expand...

You actually have a long record of lying.  In fact your post is a lie.  Show me where or when I have lied.

Admiral, what he is referring to is that I got a partial scholarship to wrestle in college and I quit my freshman year because it was too hard to get a business degree and wrestle at the same time.  This tells me a teaching degree must be easy because dummy Unkotare was able to do both.  Until he got hurt of course.  Because he's a fish and that's what happens to fish.  They get hurt.  

Anyways, me saying "I wrestled in college" is not a lie the same as it's not a lie that you say you wrestled in college.  Did you wrestle all 4 years?  Then you didn't wrestle in college either.  LOL.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th. ....
Click to expand...



GUESS again, dumbass.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> GUESS again, dumbass.
Click to expand...

Milford Public Schools / Calendar

Dec 21-and they go back the 8th.  How many days is that off in a row?  I haven't had that many days off since I was in HIGHSCHOOL!!!

You spoiled brats.  

Did you see that most people said yes when asked if teachers should make more money but then changed their minds when they found out how much teachers make?

That's because they've been hearing the chorus from teachers all these years about how overnworked and underpaid you all are.  Well once people find out teachers make $70K, they then realize you guys are actually very well compensated.  ESPECIALLY if you are getting a pension when you retire like my sister in law is.  And ESPECIALLY when I could never take 17 days off in a row.

So my sister in law goes to Greece every summer for 2 months and she right now is enjoying more days off in a row than I get all year and she makes $70K?

Does anyone here think she deserves more money?   Oh and I know parents who's kids had her as a teacher.  She's not even a good teacher.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has a long record of lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No I don't.
Click to expand...




There’s another.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has a long record of lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No I don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There’s another.
Click to expand...

Examples?  Otherwise quit wasting our time and derailing the conversation.  Do you have something to add to the topic that I know a bad teacher who makes $70K and she goes to Greece every summer for 2 months.  I can't take 2 months off.

And right now she's got 17 days off in a row, which is more vacation days than I get all year total.

So every fucking year you get 2 vacations that are BOTH longer than all the days I have off all year.

Cry me a river you work hard.  You work hard because you don't know what hard work is.  The truth is, if you had to do our jobs you would go crawling back to your school thanking them for such a cush job with such great benefits and job security.

Fish.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has a long record of lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You actually have a long record of lying.  In fact your post is a lie.  Show me where or when I have lied.
> 
> ...Did you wrestle all 4 years?  ...
Click to expand...




More than 4 years. Then I wrestled in China, and after that in Japan. Now I coach. 


Feel (more) stupid yet, liar?


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has a long record of lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...  Show me where or when I have lied
> 
> ...it was too hard to get a business degree and wrestle at the same time.  This tells me a teaching degree must be easy because dummy Unkotare was able to do both.  ...
Click to expand...





More lies.

 I independently completed two bachelor degrees (neither one a teaching degree, dumbass) in four years while training longer and harder than Bobo idiot ever has at anything, and working the overnight shift in a part-time job, and chasing girls around campus.  Oh, and years later completing a Masters degree with a family and two jobs at the same time. Some lazy pieces of shit Have just always been lazy pieces of shit and oh what a surprise that they quit and wash out of things when it gets hard.  Pathetic.


----------



## ding

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
Click to expand...

I have a pension and I’m not in a union.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th.  Still a lot more days than we get off you whiny teacher bitches.
> 
> That's 19 fucking days off in a row.  I would kill for 19 fucking days off you fucking pussy cry baby teachers.  Pathetic.
Click to expand...


Get a grip on yourself. There's always someone who has it better than you--always. In time off, in money, in intelligence, in beauty, in raw talent, in circumstances, in dumb luck. Coveting will eat you up from the inside out, always. 

Seriously. It's poison.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point.  We should not pay teachers more because they deserve it.  We should pay teachers more because our kids and our nation desire it.
> 
> Most people go into education bypassing more lucrative fields because getting a degree in education is easier, jobs are more plentiful, and typically the jobs are more secure.  This is not an environment that attacks our best people.  There has to be changes and it all begins with better salaries but that's just for starters.
> 
> Teaching should be among our most honored professions.  Teacher's education should be improved. School Districts need to spend a lot more money on the classroom and reducing pupil teacher ratios.  There needs to be more incentives for teachers.  But it all begins with better staff and that begins with better salaries and better education for teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Old saying "He who can, does.  He who cannot, teaches".
> 
> Most people bypass lucrative fields?  You assume.  Most can't hardly teach in their field, let alone be successful in the private sector.
> 
> You want to make that argument with me, show me the number of people who were in fact making 6-figure incomes or were extremely high in their field, and ditched it all to become a teacher.    The number of those people is exceptionally small.
> 
> The rest of that is false.   You look at spending per pupil, verses the quality of educational outcomes, and there is in inverse relationship.   Here in Columbus Ohio, I compared relative spending per pupil, verses the 2nd year, and 4th year students.   There was a clear connection between lower spending, and higher scores.
> 
> Equally I see no evidence that reduced class room sizes equals better educational outcomes.
> 
> A Libertarian Builds Low-Cost Private Schools for the Masses
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not buying that "most bypass lucrative fields" line either.  If someone went to school and was cut out for marketing, they went into marketing.  If they were talented enough to become a doctor they did.  Engineering.  Etc.  If they were attracted to the business world maybe they went into HR or IT or whatever it is they were good at.
> 
> People who go into teaching have all these other degrees as options.  They chose to be teachers because they didn't know what else they wanted to do. THey took 2 years of community college classes and then just like us they had a choice to make.
> 
> No one passed on a lucrative field because they were noble or righteous.  Please don't tell me all the average teachers I know passed on lucrative fields because they were noble or righteous.  That's just bullshit.
> 
> Just like sales is all I was ever really cut out to do, that's the only degree that they felt comfortable doing.
> 
> And when you graduate with a Marketing or HR degree you also have to figure out who's going to hire you when you have no experience.  Teachers don't have to worry about that.  They all get hired.  That must play a role in why they pick teaching not to mention the job security.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You think in small terms, in limited terms, and if people don't think just like you, you can't imagine HOW they think.
> 
> Frankly, you would be a horrid teacher. And since you would be a horrid teacher, you really hate teachers and can't imagine why anyone would be one, except that it's "easy".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't I already explain to you that it's just my republican side of my brain that hates you government public union workers.  OTher than that I love you all.  Except Unkotare.
Click to expand...


Oh just spare me. You spew nothing but horrid vitriol here. So really, spare me. No you don't.


----------



## Flopper

anotherlife said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
Click to expand...

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.


----------



## fncceo

If you want to make the argument that teachers deserve more pay because of their value to society.  Well, that is at least a basis for an argument. Although the market seems to state pretty categorically that they don't.

But, to say that teachers need to make more money because the need it.  That is no argument at all.  Every worker in America can make the same exact claim.  I need more money too.  If I was making a million dollars a month, I'd still need another $50 a month to pay the ISP bill.


----------



## anotherlife

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
Click to expand...


No, because the business world is volatile.  You only write about success, but no, in business for every success there is at least two failures.  And I met teachers who successfully transitioned into banking and various public relations offices.  Teachers skills are transferable too.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th.  Still a lot more days than we get off you whiny teacher bitches.
> 
> That's 19 fucking days off in a row.  I would kill for 19 fucking days off you fucking pussy cry baby teachers.  Pathetic.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe you would be willing to kill for that but would you be willing to spend two hours a night twice a week grading papers, having yard duty once a week breaking up fights, spending 3 days a week loading school buses, meeting with the principal or a department head after class hours once a week.  Participating in extracurricular activity twice a Month.  Meeting with irate parents as needed, answering emails from students and parents daily, and picking up continuing education credit.  Oh, and also going to school 1 night a week  for 3 years because the district requires you get your Master's degree in 5 years at your own expense.  Frankly, I don't think so.


----------



## Flopper

The issue should not be "do teachers deserve a higher salary".  It should be do our kids deserve better teachers.  The best students in college rarely even consider education but the fact is these people are exactly who we need in education.  What we get in education today, is students that could never make it through med school, law school, engineering or science.  So they go into education because the curriculum is easier and they are almost guaranteed a job.  Is this who want teaching your kids?  You're not going to get the best people in education unless you're willing to pay higher salaries.


----------



## SweetSue92

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
Click to expand...


How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?


----------



## SweetSue92

Flopper said:


> The issue should not be "do teachers deserve a higher salary".  It should be do our kids deserve better teachers.  The best students in college rarely even consider education but the fact is these people are exactly who we need in education.  What we get in education today, is students that could never make it through med school, law school, engineering or science.  So they go into education because the curriculum is easier and they are almost guaranteed a job.  Is this who want teaching your kids?  You're not going to get the best people in education unless you're willing to pay higher salaries.



Wow, who knew. All these people who know all these education majors I have never met, not in college surrounded by ed majors, not in all my 25 years of teaching. I mean it--who knew? All of these teachers saying, "Yeah, I wanted to go to med school but I couldn't cut it, therefore education." Same law school, engineering, etc. 

I never met these people. If they are out there, they are the people who drop out in one year, or five, ten at the outside. 

I met people who said they loved working with kids and wanted to inspire or encourage others--and the rare person who thought they were trying to take an easy way out, like a family member, who *failed student teaching*. 

Maybe the "best" don't consider education because they don't like to be around people. Maybe they don't like kids. Maybe they don't care about the process of learning--ever think about that? Some people don't give two craps about how people learn, nor do they care to help people do it. Teaching isn't something you FALL INTO because you happen to be suited to nothing else. Teachers are insatiably curious, love to learn, love to learn with others, and of course, love kids. They love the very process of education. That's not transferable to, say, lawyers, for the love of Pete.

Honest to goodness. That I have to even EDUCATE adults about this shows just how little respect anyone has for teachers. You might as well pull breathing adults off the street and just stick them in classrooms. To my great shame, a small part of me is satisfied that we're almost there now. 

We deserve it, America does. We deserve it in spades.


----------



## anotherlife

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th.  Still a lot more days than we get off you whiny teacher bitches.
> 
> That's 19 fucking days off in a row.  I would kill for 19 fucking days off you fucking pussy cry baby teachers.  Pathetic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, maybe you would be willing to kill for that but would you be willing to spend two hours a night twice a week grading papers, having yard duty once a week breaking up fights, spending 3 days a week loading school buses, meeting with the principal or a department head after class hours once a week.  Participating in extracurricular activity twice a Month.  Meeting with irate parents as needed, answering emails from students and parents daily, and picking up continuing education credit.  Oh, and also going to school 1 night a week  for 3 years because the district requires you get your Master's degree in 5 years at your own expense.  Frankly, I don't think so.
Click to expand...

Again, these are not all that much different from what a corporate office usually requires from its executives.  So teachers are still liars!  Hehehe.


----------



## anotherlife

SweetSue92 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
Click to expand...


Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th.  That's a full week less than what you said.  Unkotare is right.  Someone is lying to you.  Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has a long record of lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You actually have a long record of lying.  In fact your post is a lie.  Show me where or when I have lied.
> 
> ...Did you wrestle all 4 years?  ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than 4 years. Then I wrestled in China, and after that in Japan. Now I coach.
> 
> 
> Feel (more) stupid yet, liar?
Click to expand...

Midget wrestling


----------



## sealybobo

anotherlife said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
Click to expand...

And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.

Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.

Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
Click to expand...


So what? You don't like your job? Get out of it then!


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what? You don't like your job? Get out of it then!
Click to expand...

I love my job. 

And I don’t blame you teachers. The entire system is outdated and needs reforming.

A lot of the problem is you have to deal with parents who should have never had those kids


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what? You don't like your job? Get out of it then!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I love my job.
> 
> And I don’t blame you teachers. The entire system is outdated and needs reforming.
> 
> A lot of the problem is you have to deal with parents who should have never had those kids
Click to expand...


whatever


----------



## Flopper

SweetSue92 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
Click to expand...

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.


----------



## SweetSue92

Flopper said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
Click to expand...


You didn't read what I wrote. 

I said you need educators in the classroom--the best *educators*. You seem to think if someone is a brilliant engineer he will also be a master teacher. I can tell you that's further from the truth than you can imagine. 

And college professors, by the way, are often awful teachers. Outside of the School of Ed. Pedagogically they really suck, they don't understand how people learn and they don't care. Do it my way because it's how I learned and it's the only way I know. They're vastly unconcerned about how to actually educate. See: lectures.


----------



## Andylusion

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
Click to expand...





 
Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven. 

She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.

This is the reality.


----------



## SweetSue92

Andylusion said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
Click to expand...


Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
Click to expand...




Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.


----------



## Andylusion

SweetSue92 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> 
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
Click to expand...


Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".   
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.


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## SweetSue92

Andylusion said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> sealybobo said:
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> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
Click to expand...


I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is. 

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated. 

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.


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## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
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> …what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.
> 
> In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were _then_ asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.
> 
> But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.
> 
> School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split
> 
> Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.
> 
> The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.
> 
> On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.
> 
> 
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.
Click to expand...



There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment.    Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter.  It is impossible.

If you read Thomas Sowell's autobiography, he notes that when he was in school himself, when he was a class with other disciplined students, he was a disciplined student, and learned a lot.  When he was in a class with problem kids, he learned little, and was more of a problem kid himself.

Equally when Sowell was a teacher, when teaching in a class with disciplined students, he was able to teach very effectively.  When he was forced into a class with problem kids that he could not remove from his class, he was not able to teach effectively.

My mother was a teacher, and she described how a section of the town was made into section 8 housing.  A girl from that housing was placed into her class.  She disrupted the entire class constantly.  She was sent to the principals office throughout the entire year.  During the parent / teacher meeting, the parent blamed my mother for her child's behavior.

It got to the point, they just left her in the hall way all day long, because no one could do anything with her, nor the other students from that section 8 housing.

Finally the city redrew the school district, and the section 8 housing area was shifted to the inner city public schools, and none of the nightmare students were seen again.

You can't teach insanity.   The best teacher on the planet, paid the most money in the world, could not provide better education to these people.  You have to ban them from the school.  There is no fix.   What must happen, is that students who refuse to learn, need to be kicked out, until they figure out that life sucks when you are an uneducated idiot, and then they themselves decide they want to be smarter.


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## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
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> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment.    Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter.  It is impossible.
> 
> ...
Click to expand...



Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.


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## Andylusion

SweetSue92 said:


> Andylusion said:
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> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
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> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
Click to expand...


I'm not going to argue with your experience.  I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer.   Which is true.  I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.

So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it.  What solutions have teachers given?

*Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.*

Well yeah.  Of course.    What is your point?   You do realize that Finland does this?  Most of Europe, does this.    Students that are crap, are kicked out.   Thus they do better at educating.    

Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed.   This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up.  High end schools, don't take non-high-end students.  If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go.  You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.

So yes!  Exactly!   Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids.  Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.

Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth.   Yeah, exactly.   Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated.  People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.

*I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.*

No, of course not.   The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.

So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.

There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.

The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.


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## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


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> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
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> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment.    Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter.  It is impossible.
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.
Click to expand...


I respectfully disagree.  I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.


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## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


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> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
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> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.
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> ...
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> Click to expand...
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> Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.
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> I respectfully disagree.  I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.
Click to expand...



If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.


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## Unkotare

Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.


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## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


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> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
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> Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment.    Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter.  It is impossible.
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> ...
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> Click to expand...
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> Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.
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> I respectfully disagree.  I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.
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> If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.
Click to expand...


Why would you say that?   I don't understand you.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?

You do know that they have tried this in the past.  They gave kids free educations at ivy league schools, and they just ended up dropping out.


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## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.



lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts?  Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable.  Did I run over your cat or something?


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## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


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> Why would you say that?   I don't understand you.
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> Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?
Click to expand...




Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.


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## Andylusion

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> If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.
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> Why would you say that?   I don't understand you.
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> 
> 
> Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.
Click to expand...


Well... you have the right to be wrong.  Good talking to you.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts?  Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable.  Did I run over your cat or something?
Click to expand...



You are being dishonest. I don’t care for that.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree.  I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would you say that?   I don't understand you.
> 
> Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... you have the right to be wrong.  Good talking to you.
Click to expand...



I have the right to know better.


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts?  Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable.  Did I run over your cat or something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are being dishonest. I don’t care for that.
Click to expand...




Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree.  I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would you say that?   I don't understand you.
> 
> Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... you have the right to be wrong.  Good talking to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have the right to know better.
Click to expand...


Both of my parents were public school teachers.  Both got awards for their work.  Both got rehired as teachers after they retired.  My father was a university professor.  Both had their masters, and my father had a Ph.D.

Both of my parents agree with what I have written, and I have heard the same from other teachers.

I stand by my words as both truthful and accurate.


----------



## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
Click to expand...


The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?


----------



## anotherlife

Flopper said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
Click to expand...


So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.


----------



## Andylusion

anotherlife said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
Click to expand...


No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.

It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts?  Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable.  Did I run over your cat or something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are being dishonest. I don’t care for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would you say that?   I don't understand you.
> 
> Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... you have the right to be wrong.  Good talking to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have the right to know better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Both of my parents were public school teachers.  Both got awards for their work.  Both got rehired as teachers after they retired.  My father was a university professor.  Both had their masters, and my father had a Ph.D.
> 
> Both of my parents agree with what I have written, and I have heard the same from other teachers.
> 
> I stand by my words as both truthful and accurate.
Click to expand...



Do you honestly not realize how obvious it is that you are lying?


----------



## anotherlife

Andylusion said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
Click to expand...


No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> All garbage.
> 
> First off, my parents are millionaires.  And they were both public school teachers.   Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.
> 
> "I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"
> 
> No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay.    Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.
> 
> The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap.  I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.
> 
> Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.
> 
> That was his idea of "teaching".
> 
> So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness.   We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world.   Most teachers should be paid less.   A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.
> 
> We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.
> 
> Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
Click to expand...

whatever. Lol


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools.  This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
Click to expand...

I remember in the 2000s when republicans were bashing private unions they always talked about these rubber rooms at GM where employees who didn’t have jobs would have to show up to in order to keep getting paid until they could find them a new job. 

Looks like the same game plan going after theses public school union teachers.

I’d be worried if I were a teacher because republicans always get what they want. Eventually.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true.  I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.
> 
> 
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
Click to expand...

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.


----------



## sealybobo

anotherlife said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
Click to expand...

And parents who don’t want to or can’t afford to don’t send their kids to school. Or have a public option but you have to drive your kids to it. No more busses. And teachers can throw your kid out if you aren’t trying.

Maybe this will cut down on poverty birth rates.

Public schools were a great idea in the 1900s


----------



## initforme

Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.


----------



## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And parents who don’t want to or can’t afford to don’t send their kids to school. Or have a public option but you have to drive your kids to it. No more busses. And teachers can throw your kid out if you aren’t trying.
> 
> Maybe this will cut down on poverty birth rates.
> 
> Public schools were a great idea in the 1900s
Click to expand...


In the 1900s may be but not in the 21st century.  And even in the 1900s, public schools were established only for indoctrination. 

Those parents who can't pay will find a school that is less expensive.  But at least they will not pay for endless free loaders posing as educators instead of schooling their children.  

Also, now that the student loan bubble is about to burst, America needs a new loan market, and nothing is better than the pupil loan market after the student loan market.


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
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> Unkotare said:
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> 
> 
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> Andylusion said:
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> 
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> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts?  Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable.  Did I run over your cat or something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are being dishonest. I don’t care for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
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> Andylusion said:
> 
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> Unkotare said:
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> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you say that?   I don't understand you.
> 
> Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... you have the right to be wrong.  Good talking to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have the right to know better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Both of my parents were public school teachers.  Both got awards for their work.  Both got rehired as teachers after they retired.  My father was a university professor.  Both had their masters, and my father had a Ph.D.
> 
> Both of my parents agree with what I have written, and I have heard the same from other teachers.
> 
> I stand by my words as both truthful and accurate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you honestly not realize how obvious it is that you are lying?
Click to expand...


lol....
Why would I lie?   If everything I said wasn't true, what would be the point of saying it?  
I don't get it.  What do I stand to even gain from lying to you?

What exactly do you think I lied about?


----------



## Andylusion

anotherlife said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.


----------



## anotherlife

Andylusion said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> 
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
Click to expand...

Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.


----------



## Andylusion

initforme said:


> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.



But the two things are connected.   Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture.  Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.

Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.

For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school.  What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school.  What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.

When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible.  He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.

Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.

But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed.  They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.

Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.

And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.


----------



## Andylusion

anotherlife said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education.  In 2015, it was just over 10%.   Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching.  They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields.  I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation.  Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people.  Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
Click to expand...


Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.

I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the two things are connected.   Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture.  Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.
> 
> For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school.  What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school.  What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.
> 
> When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible.  He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.
> 
> Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.
> 
> But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed.  They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.
> 
> Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.
> 
> And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.
Click to expand...

Now I’m going to defend the teachers for a minute.

You say people have no incentive to succeed? Why not? Aren’t there good jobs out there?

And you said people don’t realize how devastating it is 15 years down.... who doesn’t realize it? Then doesn’t that make them a dumb fuck? My parents were immigrants and they knew the importance of a good education. And they cracked down on us if we weren’t doing our homework.

Anyone today who doesn’t know it’s important that their kid get a good education is dumb and probably shouldn’t have them.

But, it’s not the dumb parents job to teach their kids. It’s the teachers job. And if they can’t do it maybe they shouldn’t be teaching.

But I like the idea of separating the smart kids from the dummies. I would have went to the dummy school


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
Click to expand...

Is it really that important we educate the masses? So important we need a  education department? I think we could abolish the dept of education and things would be fine.

States can run state schools and state taxes would pay for public schools.

People who have kids need to factor in education.

You know what would be great? If I had kids, I start work at 8 and leave at 5pm. I would love a school where you can drop your kid off at 7:30am and pick them up at 5:30. That would be perfect. How much would that cost a month? 

That’s what parents of the future need to do. Pay for their own kids schooling.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> ....
Click to expand...



The Supreme Court says so.


----------



## anotherlife

Andylusion said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools.  Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry.  Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
Click to expand...

I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court says so.
Click to expand...

I could see the new conservative Supreme Court rethinking that


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court says so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I could see the new conservative Supreme Court rethinking that
Click to expand...



Nope


----------



## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is it really that important we educate the masses? So important we need a  education department? I think we could abolish the dept of education and things would be fine.
> 
> States can run state schools and state taxes would pay for public schools.
> 
> People who have kids need to factor in education.
> 
> You know what would be great? If I had kids, I start work at 8 and leave at 5pm. I would love a school where you can drop your kid off at 7:30am and pick them up at 5:30. That would be perfect. How much would that cost a month?
> 
> That’s what parents of the future need to do. Pay for their own kids schooling.
Click to expand...


Yes.  Transitioning to such a practical system is very complicated though I think.  

Currently, public schools have your money anyways through property taxes and then they make more money by outsourcing afternoon child care.  Even if the same classroom is used.  A form of out of control bonanza for them. 

To reign it in would be a huge fight, and the teacher unions will do everything to stop it, starting with destroying your property price. 

Any idea how to pull it off?


----------



## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court says so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I could see the new conservative Supreme Court rethinking that
Click to expand...

Charter schools was a republican idea to break the hegemony of teacher unions.  The teacher unions won that one.


----------



## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the two things are connected.   Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture.  Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.
> 
> For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school.  What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school.  What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.
> 
> When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible.  He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.
> 
> Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.
> 
> But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed.  They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.
> 
> Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.
> 
> And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now I’m going to defend the teachers for a minute.
> 
> You say people have no incentive to succeed? Why not? Aren’t there good jobs out there?
> 
> And you said people don’t realize how devastating it is 15 years down.... who doesn’t realize it? Then doesn’t that make them a dumb fuck? My parents were immigrants and they knew the importance of a good education. And they cracked down on us if we weren’t doing our homework.
> 
> Anyone today who doesn’t know it’s important that their kid get a good education is dumb and probably shouldn’t have them.
> 
> But, it’s not the dumb parents job to teach their kids. It’s the teachers job. And if they can’t do it maybe they shouldn’t be teaching.
> 
> But I like the idea of separating the smart kids from the dummies. I would have went to the dummy school
Click to expand...


No. Learning everything in the French language would have sent you to the dummy school.  I hate them.


----------



## sealybobo

anotherlife said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  States rights.  The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.
> 
> It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.
Click to expand...

People move to cities with good schools. Good schools is a reason people move.

I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.


----------



## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People move to cities with good schools. Good schools is a reason people move.
> 
> I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.
Click to expand...

I think they are called retirement communities, but currently they too pay school taxes.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level.  So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...
> 
> I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.
Click to expand...





Your dream of homosexual segregation isn’t very practical, Giovanni.


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court says so.
Click to expand...


Yeah, well they are wrong.

But that doesn't matter.  Let's even pretend that it is a right.  The moment you make something a 'right', you take the onus of responsibility off the individual.   That's why you see kids and parents, that don't think they have to do anything to get an education.... and they don't.   You see kids in school, that make no effort to learn anything, and parents that don't believe they have to make their children learn.... because after all... its societies job to educate. Not mine.  They need to do their duty.

When you take the responsibility of education off the people, and put it on "society", then you end up with the education system we have.

Again, you look at Finland, students that don't make the grades, are kicked out.   They can go to a trade school, and learn to fit pipes together if they please, but they don't burden teachers and their peers, with students who don't put in the effort.

So what happened to their "entitlement" to education?  I guess they lost it.

Of course the irony is, because you can lose your 'right' to an education, the results are that few students fail out.  The students knowing they can lose their education, end up trying to keep it.


----------



## Andylusion

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the two things are connected.   Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture.  Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.
> 
> For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school.  What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school.  What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.
> 
> When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible.  He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.
> 
> Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.
> 
> But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed.  They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.
> 
> Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.
> 
> And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now I’m going to defend the teachers for a minute.
> 
> You say people have no incentive to succeed? Why not? Aren’t there good jobs out there?
> 
> And you said people don’t realize how devastating it is 15 years down.... who doesn’t realize it? Then doesn’t that make them a dumb fuck? My parents were immigrants and they knew the importance of a good education. And they cracked down on us if we weren’t doing our homework.
> 
> Anyone today who doesn’t know it’s important that their kid get a good education is dumb and probably shouldn’t have them.
> 
> But, it’s not the dumb parents job to teach their kids. It’s the teachers job. And if they can’t do it maybe they shouldn’t be teaching.
> 
> But I like the idea of separating the smart kids from the dummies. I would have went to the dummy school
Click to expand...


*You say people have no incentive to succeed? Why not? Aren’t there good jobs out there?*

Has nothing to do with jobs.
No matter what grade I get in elementary school, as long as I scrape by with a passing grade, even if a D+ or C-, I'll go to the same middle school as everyone else, no matter what.

Same with middle school.  I'll end up at the same high school as everyone else, no matter what grade I get in middle school, provided I don't completely fail.

And even in high school, as long as I pass, most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  So what does it matter?

Lastly, even in college, most people don't look at your GPA.  I haven't had an employer ask my GPA for any job I've ever gotten.  Why does it matter?

The problem is, throughout the entire system, we have unintentionally taught that effort isn't important.  Quality of results isn't important.  As long as you scrape by, you will move up.

This is part of the reason our schools are failing.    This is why in a private school, students have more than just internal desire to succeed.  If they don't keep their grades up, they get removed.   It's called "motivation".   Something extremely lacking in public school students.

*And you said people don’t realize how devastating it is 15 years down.... who doesn’t realize it? Then doesn’t that make them a dumb fuck?*

No, they are simply learning based on the incentives, and cultural values around them.

Immigrants often have different cultural values.  Almost inherently, they do not have an entitlement mindset, when immigrating.  They believe they must earn their place in a new culture and society.


----------



## SweetSue92

Andylusion said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not going to argue with your experience.  I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer.   Which is true.  I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.
> 
> So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it.  What solutions have teachers given?
> 
> *Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.*
> 
> Well yeah.  Of course.    What is your point?   You do realize that Finland does this?  Most of Europe, does this.    Students that are crap, are kicked out.   Thus they do better at educating.
> 
> Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed.   This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up.  High end schools, don't take non-high-end students.  If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go.  You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.
> 
> So yes!  Exactly!   Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids.  Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.
> 
> Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth.   Yeah, exactly.   Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated.  People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.
> 
> *I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.*
> 
> No, of course not.   The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.
> 
> So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.
> 
> There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.
> 
> The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.
Click to expand...


Then this is simple: do not compare foreign, private, or charter schools to public schools.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.
Click to expand...


They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.


----------



## SweetSue92

Andylusion said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the two things are connected.   Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture.  Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.
> 
> For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school.  What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school.  What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.
> 
> When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible.  He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.
> 
> Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.
> 
> But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed.  They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.
> 
> Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.
> 
> And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.
Click to expand...


Definitely making crap up.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I disagree.  It should be a local issue.  If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice.  We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government.  Or at least we should.
> 
> 
> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...
> 
> I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your dream of homosexual segregation isn’t very practical, Giovanni.
Click to expand...

Look up the states that collect the least to pay for schools. I could move to one of those states but then I’d be in a red state.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.
Click to expand...

Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.
Click to expand...


Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism. 

Do you know how these things work?


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
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> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism.
> 
> Do you know how these things work?
Click to expand...

Yes because I have worked for private companies who know ways around being sued for ageism.


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## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> sealybobo said:
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> SweetSue92 said:
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> sealybobo said:
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> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism.
> 
> Do you know how these things work?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes because I have worked for private companies who know ways around being sued for ageism.
Click to expand...


I'm going to say something to you before putting you on ignore here. It's a small-minded and mean--and I mean that in a small way--person who looks around, sees the way his life is harder than others, and let's that eat at his soul to the point he wants a stranger on the internet, a woman who is a really good teacher, to get fired from her job just to "show her". 

You have shown me over and over this is who you are. I'm sure your teacher sister-in-law hates this, and being around you. It's too bad because in the end, it's most corrosive to _*your own soul*_. I am putting you on ignore--I don't need to be around it. It's very important to me that I keep myself as healthy as I can in all number of ways for my students' sake. But YOU have to be around YOU. And again. You're the kind that, rather than consider all the good things you have, will let yourself be eaten up so badly with covetousness that you wish a stranger on the internet the loss of her long time career, just to "teach her a lesson". 

Two days before Christmas. 

You have to live with that rot in your soul, which I really, really advise you tend to. I would personally recommend communion with God, but at the very least, a gratitude journal or something.

That's all. I'm done.


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## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...





WRONG.


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## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> sealybobo said:
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> SweetSue92 said:
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> SweetSue92 said:
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> sealybobo said:
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> 
> I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism.
> 
> Do you know how these things work?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes because I have worked for private companies who know ways around being sued for ageism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm going to say something to you before putting you on ignore here. It's a small-minded and mean--and I mean that in a small way--person who looks around, sees the way his life is harder than others, and let's that eat at his soul to the point he wants a stranger on the internet, a woman who is a really good teacher, to get fired from her job just to "show her".
> 
> You have shown me over and over this is who you are. I'm sure your teacher sister-in-law hates this, and being around you. It's too bad because in the end, it's most corrosive to _*your own soul*_. I am putting you on ignore--I don't need to be around it. It's very important to me that I keep myself as healthy as I can in all number of ways for my students' sake. But YOU have to be around YOU. And again. You're the kind that, rather than consider all the good things you have, will let yourself be eaten up so badly with covetousness that you wish a stranger on the internet the loss of her long time career, just to "teach her a lesson".
> 
> Two days before Christmas.
> 
> You have to live with that rot in your soul, which I really, really advise you tend to. I would personally recommend communion with God, but at the very least, a gratitude journal or something.
> 
> That's all. I'm done.
Click to expand...

Sorry you got sucked into an argument I’m having with someone else. I don’t mean half the stuff I say to you. You seem like a very nice lady who I just happen to disagree with politically. Sorry


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## anotherlife

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> 
> Andylusion said:
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> 
> 
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> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court says so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, well they are wrong.
> 
> But that doesn't matter.  Let's even pretend that it is a right.  The moment you make something a 'right', you take the onus of responsibility off the individual.   That's why you see kids and parents, that don't think they have to do anything to get an education.... and they don't.   You see kids in school, that make no effort to learn anything, and parents that don't believe they have to make their children learn.... because after all... its societies job to educate. Not mine.  They need to do their duty.
> 
> When you take the responsibility of education off the people, and put it on "society", then you end up with the education system we have.
> 
> Again, you look at Finland, students that don't make the grades, are kicked out.   They can go to a trade school, and learn to fit pipes together if they please, but they don't burden teachers and their peers, with students who don't put in the effort.
> 
> So what happened to their "entitlement" to education?  I guess they lost it.
> 
> Of course the irony is, because you can lose your 'right' to an education, the results are that few students fail out.  The students knowing they can lose their education, end up trying to keep it.
Click to expand...

Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union.  It is the case too here in Africa.  This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.


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## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> sealybobo said:
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> anotherlife said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> anotherlife said:
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> 
> Then nothing will happen.  If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations.  This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...
> 
> I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your dream of homosexual segregation isn’t very practical, Giovanni.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look up the states that collect the least to pay for schools. I could move to one of those states but then I’d be in a red state.
Click to expand...


Yes, and you would get a better education too.  I hear also that the best US universities are now there.  Too bad, too many democrat scum bags are now moving into the red states to save their money, not realizing that it is their own democrat idiocy that will turn the red state blue and make them lose their savings like they never moved to begin with.  Same affliction as the Honduras gang bangers climbing across the wall and bringing Honduras with them.  How safe are red states?


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## Andylusion

SweetSue92 said:


> Andylusion said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> 
> View attachment 236196
> Public schools are crap.    That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more.  You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.
> 
> My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.
> 
> She declined after one week.  The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room.  It was hell.
> 
> This is the reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not going to argue with your experience.  I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer.   Which is true.  I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.
> 
> So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it.  What solutions have teachers given?
> 
> *Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.*
> 
> Well yeah.  Of course.    What is your point?   You do realize that Finland does this?  Most of Europe, does this.    Students that are crap, are kicked out.   Thus they do better at educating.
> 
> Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed.   This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up.  High end schools, don't take non-high-end students.  If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go.  You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.
> 
> So yes!  Exactly!   Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids.  Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.
> 
> Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth.   Yeah, exactly.   Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated.  People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.
> 
> *I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.*
> 
> No, of course not.   The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.
> 
> So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.
> 
> There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.
> 
> The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then this is simple: do not compare foreign, private, or charter schools to public schools.
Click to expand...


That makes no sense.   The job of a public school is to educate.  The job of a private or charter school is to educate.  Why would we not compare?

You have two systems.  One sucks.  One works.   Should you not compare the two to see what differences between the systems, cause what outcomes?

Are you saying that we should not compare the US public school system to any other school system on the planet? Because nearly all other school systems, kick out bad students, like private and charter schools. 

That sounds like a method of avoiding the flaws in the system, in order to maintain a bad system.

In short, you are basically saying exactly what I claimed teachers and teachers unions have been saying.
Is that unfair?   Why would you say that otherwise?   Other than to maintain a terrible system?

If I am misreading your post, feel free to correct me.


----------



## Andylusion

SweetSue92 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the two things are connected.   Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture.  Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.
> 
> Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.
> 
> For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school.  What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school.  What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.
> 
> When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible.  He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.
> 
> Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.
> 
> But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed.  They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.
> 
> Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.
> 
> And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Definitely making crap up.
Click to expand...


What do you think I am making up?


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.
Click to expand...


So I just looked up the entrance requirements for local colleges.  Not one mentioned high school GPA.   All listed SAT and ACT.

If I am wrong, then I am wrong.  I'll be more than happy to admit it.    But I'm just looking at the evidence, and this is the conclusion it leads me too.

When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.   They asked about my SAT.

Again, I knew a guy in high school, that intentionally got the lowest passing score possible.  He ended up being a lawyer.   Do you think I'm making that up?  For what purpose? 

You guys have said I'm wrong, and I'm lying, and whatever now, for a dozen posts.  I keep asking, what am I lying about, and what evidence do you have.    At least tell me what you think I'm lying about, because at this point, you guys are just parroting each other, with no substance or evidence.

Work with me!  Give me something to go on.  What is your beef?


----------



## Andylusion

anotherlife said:


> Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union.  It is the case too here in Africa.  This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.



Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.


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## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I just looked up the entrance requirements for local colleges.  Not one mentioned high school GPA.   ......
Click to expand...


Holy shit, that's stupid. Every one of them requires a transcript from the high school (or equivalent) in the application package.


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## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> Andylusion said:
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> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> If I am wrong, then I am wrong. ...
Click to expand...



You're wrong.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.  ....
Click to expand...



Yes they did.


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## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
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> Unkotare said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did.
Click to expand...


No, they did not.  I asked.  Said I only needed a diploma.  Which I had.  I know this because my GPA was horrendous.  I was a terrible student.   I was worried that my exceptionally low GPA would keep me out of college.  They didn't care.  They said they didn't care.   They wanted to know my SAT scores.


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## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
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> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
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> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they did not.  .....
Click to expand...



Yes, they did. Do not lie, I know better.


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## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
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> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
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> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they did not.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they did. Do not lie, I know better.
Click to expand...


Since you did not read my post... I'll repost it.

No, they did not. I asked. Said I only needed a diploma. Which I had. I know this because my GPA was horrendous. I was a terrible student. I was worried that my exceptionally low GPA would keep me out of college. They didn't care. They said they didn't care. They wanted to know my SAT scores.


----------



## Unkotare

If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they did not.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they did. Do not lie, I know better.
Click to expand...

.


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.



I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.

They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?


----------



## Andylusion

I suppose the admissions guy was lying to me.....   You'll need to provide concrete proof of that, before I'll accept that.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.
> 
> They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?
Click to expand...




 The part where you lie over and over again.


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.
> 
> They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The part where you lie over and over again.
Click to expand...


Why would I lie about this?   For what reason?

Grades pointless? Some colleges don't care about GPAs

Parents and their high school students are fascinated by the grade point average and what it means in college admissions, but the truth is that a number of colleges and universities are not all that interested.

Admissions officers at some of the nation's most selective colleges, who are now sending acceptance letters for their fall freshman classes, say they barely look at an applicant's GPA.

"It's meaningless," says Greg Roberts, admissions dean at the University of Virginia, ranked as the top public university in this year's 150 Best Value Colleges, published by The Princeton Review and based on academics and affordability.​
So now I have on the record, direct quotes from people who work at the admissions of major universities, saying the exact same thing.

I'll ask you again.... what am I lying about, and prove it.

As I said before, I specifically asked if the college I applied at, was looking at my GPA.  They said directly "no".   So now, YOU are the liar.

Why do you keep lying?  You know I'm right, and I have the facts to prove it.  Why are you lying to everyone on this forum, this entire thread?   Does that stroke your ego to claim others are lying, when you are the one lying?


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of that bullshit you described happens today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:
> 
> Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day.  What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities.  Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies.  When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
> Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts.  However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
> Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
> Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult.  It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
> Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement.  Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom.  As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
Click to expand...

However, in the private sector, there are more opportunities because the private sector has greater economic growth than public education.  Teachers don't get bonuses when business is good or profit sharing plans, and have little opportunity for advancement regardless of their teaching ability.  Unlike the private sector, a teacher is not likely to improve his or her financial situation by taking another job in the area because the public school system is often the only game in town for most teachers since most private schools pay less than public schools.

Like all fields, teaching has it's pros and cons.  As a teacher you get relatively good job security, pension, and days off.  The cons are a poor chance advancement, long work days, and a requirement 4 to 6 years in college.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.
> 
> They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The part where you lie over and over again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would I lie about this?   For what reason?
> 
> ...
Click to expand...



The same reason you started posting on this thread.


----------



## Flopper

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
Click to expand...

Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.

The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
> 
> The common complain about tenure is that it's difficult to fire poor performing teachers. That's true but my experience has been that all but the smallest school districts have ways of handling poor performing teachers.  Really bad teachers are often the result of a wrong choice of career.  Offering a non-instruction job sometimes works.  In most districts if a principal wants get rid of you they can.   There are always ways, transfers, rotations, and special jobs.
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
Click to expand...


Here is an example of how tenure works exactly like you said.  In Florida, I was teacher for 8 years, had tenure and belonged to the union.  When I received my Master's degree in Educational Leadership, my principal selected me to fill a vacant Assistant Principal role.  About three months later, the principal's father passed away leaving him a $9 million estate, so he retired.  The district hired a new principal to start the next school year who was pregnant with twins and had just recovered from a difficult pregnancy the year before that nearly killed her.  She missed the vast majority of the school year, and we ran the school very well in her absence.  When she finally returned, with about three months to go in the school year, she became very jealous of my reputation for enforcing discipline in the school with our district superiors. 

Towards the end of school, I received an email from the district with the opportunities for promotion for the next school year.  Guess whose name was on it as leaving?  Me! 

She didn't even have the guts to tell me that my contract was not being renewed. Later that afternoon, she sent me an email telling me I was no longer going to have a job there.  She sent an email!  She never spoke to me again the remainder of the school year and I worked until the end of June.  The coop de grace was that she hired her best friend who was an administrator in a another school to take my place.

That is the kind of crap that teachers who do not have tenure still have to tolerate today!

The good news is that the remained of the staff saw what she did to me and she was removed at the end of the following school year.


----------



## Flopper

initforme said:


> Unions this unions that.  Lame excuse.  It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility.  It's only the teachers.  Always the teachers.  And then it's the unions.  What a bunch of complete garbage.   Try again.


Taking responsibility is one of the most important lessons  kids lean.  However, when kids don't take responsibility and fail, it is the teacher that takes the blunt of the criticism.  Today teachers and schools are rated based on student performance.


----------



## Flopper

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I just looked up the entrance requirements for local colleges.  Not one mentioned high school GPA.   All listed SAT and ACT.
> 
> If I am wrong, then I am wrong.  I'll be more than happy to admit it.    But I'm just looking at the evidence, and this is the conclusion it leads me too.
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.   They asked about my SAT.
> 
> Again, I knew a guy in high school, that intentionally got the lowest passing score possible.  He ended up being a lawyer.   Do you think I'm making that up?  For what purpose?
> 
> You guys have said I'm wrong, and I'm lying, and whatever now, for a dozen posts.  I keep asking, what am I lying about, and what evidence do you have.    At least tell me what you think I'm lying about, because at this point, you guys are just parroting each other, with no substance or evidence.
> 
> Work with me!  Give me something to go on.  What is your beef?
Click to expand...

You're wrong about GPA's.  Colleges certainly do look at them.  The SAT can prove you have the capability to be successful.  A high GPA proves you have been successful.

It's rare that a student will have a very low GPA and high SAT scores.  However it does happens.  The picture that paints for college admission officers or employers is a very smart slacker, not exactly and ideal candidate for college or a job.


----------



## Flopper

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they did not.  I asked.  Said I only needed a diploma.  Which I had.  I know this because my GPA was horrendous.  I was a terrible student.   I was worried that my exceptionally low GPA would keep me out of college.  They didn't care.  They said they didn't care.   They wanted to know my SAT scores.
Click to expand...

When I went to college many years ago, the only thing you needed for admission to the state university was a high school diploma.  I can assure you that is not the case today.  However, admission to most community colleges only requires a diploma.  If you're willing to pay enough money in tuition or willing to go to one of the worst 4 year schools in the country, they'll take you with a 2.0 or maybe even lower.

However, if you plan on using your degree to help you get a good job, you need go to at least a fairly well recognized school and not a degree mill or you may find you just wasted your money.


----------



## anotherlife

Andylusion said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union.  It is the case too here in Africa.  This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.
Click to expand...


Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.


----------



## anotherlife

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
Click to expand...


The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.


----------



## Andylusion

Flopper said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I just looked up the entrance requirements for local colleges.  Not one mentioned high school GPA.   All listed SAT and ACT.
> 
> If I am wrong, then I am wrong.  I'll be more than happy to admit it.    But I'm just looking at the evidence, and this is the conclusion it leads me too.
> 
> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.   They asked about my SAT.
> 
> Again, I knew a guy in high school, that intentionally got the lowest passing score possible.  He ended up being a lawyer.   Do you think I'm making that up?  For what purpose?
> 
> You guys have said I'm wrong, and I'm lying, and whatever now, for a dozen posts.  I keep asking, what am I lying about, and what evidence do you have.    At least tell me what you think I'm lying about, because at this point, you guys are just parroting each other, with no substance or evidence.
> 
> Work with me!  Give me something to go on.  What is your beef?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're wrong about GPA's.  Colleges certainly do look at them.  The SAT can prove you have the capability to be successful.  A high GPA proves you have been successful.
> 
> It's rare that a student will have a very low GPA and high SAT scores.  However it does happens.  The picture that paints for college admission officers or employers is a very smart slacker, not exactly and ideal candidate for college or a job.
Click to expand...


Obviously some high end universities look at them.  Any Ivy league school, that has 4 to 6 applicants for each of the limited number of open seats... will obviously have to have additional requirements if for no other reason than because they need a way to thin the herd.

But when I'm discussion "education" in general, the vast vast majority of the roughly 3.5 Million high school grads a year, are not going to any of those elite schools with tough entrance standards.

Just like there are extremely high end companies, that have 50 applicants per open position, and then they might look at your high school record, simply to thin the herd.

But again, the vast majority of job applicants are not going to those employers.

So if what you said was true, why did the USA Today article that interviewed college admissions staff, say they don't look at GPA?  Why did the admission office where I went to college, specifically say they didn't look at GPA?

*I have theory. * I'll just throw this out there.  Keep in mind, it's just a theory.  I have nothing to back this view but my own personal experience.

Because public schools are obligated to have an extremely wide range of academic outcomes within the school... and because there is a wide range of academic requirements between schools.... a GPA for one student can be completely different from the GPA of another student.   Meaning, even if the two students have an identical GPA, it can mean entirely different things.

For example:

For a short time while I was in 11th grade, I was taking a bus ride with a group of students going to a private school.  They were freshmen.   One day on the bus, I happen to overhear some of the students talking about their homework, and I asked to see it.   They were learning in 9th grade, what I was learning in 11th grade.

If we assumed that me, and that other student, were both earning a 4.0 GPA, you can understand that my 4.0 would not mean that I was on the same level as their 4.0.   They were 2 full years ahead of me.   And ironically I went to the highest rated high school in the Columbus area at that time.  Meaning they were likely 5 years ahead of Columbus public.

Equally, even within the same school building, there are vastly different requirements.   I was horrifically bad at math.  I went to a class that was for people who were terrible at math, and scored an A+.    But my A+ was not the same as an A+ from the normal Math course, nor is that the same as the Advance Placement Math course, and that wasn't the same as the College Credit Math course.  There were 4 different tracts of courses you could take for Math.

If I showed off my straight As to the valedictorian, we both would laughed.  He was doing college level math, while I was doing entry level math.  But looking at GPA alone, I was A+, and he was A+.   

That same A+, didn't mean the same education, to all the students.

So my guess is that this is why colleges don't look at GPA that much.


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## Andylusion

anotherlife said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union.  It is the case too here in Africa.  This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.
Click to expand...


Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.


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## Unkotare

Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.


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## anotherlife

Andylusion said:


> anotherlife said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> anotherlife said:
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> 
> Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union.  It is the case too here in Africa.  This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.
Click to expand...

Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.


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## SweetSue92

Andylusion said:


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> SweetSue92 said:
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> Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.
> 
> The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not going to argue with your experience.  I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer.   Which is true.  I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.
> 
> So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it.  What solutions have teachers given?
> 
> *Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.*
> 
> Well yeah.  Of course.    What is your point?   You do realize that Finland does this?  Most of Europe, does this.    Students that are crap, are kicked out.   Thus they do better at educating.
> 
> Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed.   This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up.  High end schools, don't take non-high-end students.  If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go.  You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.
> 
> So yes!  Exactly!   Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids.  Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.
> 
> Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth.   Yeah, exactly.   Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated.  People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.
> 
> *I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.*
> 
> No, of course not.   The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.
> 
> So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.
> 
> There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.
> 
> The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then this is simple: do not compare foreign, private, or charter schools to public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That makes no sense.   The job of a public school is to educate.  The job of a private or charter school is to educate.  Why would we not compare?
> 
> You have two systems.  One sucks.  One works.   Should you not compare the two to see what differences between the systems, cause what outcomes?
> 
> Are you saying that we should not compare the US public school system to any other school system on the planet? Because nearly all other school systems, kick out bad students, like private and charter schools.
> 
> That sounds like a method of avoiding the flaws in the system, in order to maintain a bad system.
> 
> In short, you are basically saying exactly what I claimed teachers and teachers unions have been saying.
> Is that unfair?   Why would you say that otherwise?   Other than to maintain a terrible system?
> 
> If I am misreading your post, feel free to correct me.
Click to expand...


Do you need me to explain this to you?

It's like a car company bragging about how the average top speed of their vehicles is 150 mph. Okay, says the Other Company, but they're all luxury cars. We make mopeds. Throw some of those in. But the first company says, we don't make mopeds, we only make luxury cars and won't take mopeds. 

Then you can't compare them, can you? If the first company made mopeds, the average speed would go DOWN. But they don't. So they brag about their speed outcomes. Exactly as you have said---just get rid of the bad performers and magically, you're a top performing school. 

This is not difficult.


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## SweetSue92

anotherlife said:


> Andylusion said:
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> anotherlife said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> anotherlife said:
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> 
> Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union.  It is the case too here in Africa.  This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.
Click to expand...


This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.


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## SweetSue92

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Flopper said:
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> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
> 
> The common complain about tenure is that it's difficult to fire poor performing teachers. That's true but my experience has been that all but the smallest school districts have ways of handling poor performing teachers.  Really bad teachers are often the result of a wrong choice of career.  Offering a non-instruction job sometimes works.  In most districts if a principal wants get rid of you they can.   There are always ways, transfers, rotations, and special jobs.
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is an example of how tenure works exactly like you said.  In Florida, I was teacher for 8 years, had tenure and belonged to the union.  When I received my Master's degree in Educational Leadership, my principal selected me to fill a vacant Assistant Principal role.  About three months later, the principal's father passed away leaving him a $9 million estate, so he retired.  The district hired a new principal to start the next school year who was pregnant with twins and had just recovered from a difficult pregnancy the year before that nearly killed her.  She missed the vast majority of the school year, and we ran the school very well in her absence.  When she finally returned, with about three months to go in the school year, she became very jealous of my reputation for enforcing discipline in the school with our district superiors.
> 
> Towards the end of school, I received an email from the district with the opportunities for promotion for the next school year.  Guess whose name was on it as leaving?  Me!
> 
> She didn't even have the guts to tell me that my contract was not being renewed. Later that afternoon, she sent me an email telling me I was no longer going to have a job there.  She sent an email!  She never spoke to me again the remainder of the school year and I worked until the end of June.  The coop de grace was that she hired her best friend who was an administrator in a another school to take my place.
> 
> That is the kind of crap that teachers who do not have tenure still have to tolerate today!
> 
> The good news is that the remained of the staff saw what she did to me and she was removed at the end of the following school year.
Click to expand...


There are too many admins like this in schools. They are truly horrible. The stories are legion.


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## anotherlife

SweetSue92 said:


> anotherlife said:
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> Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union.  It is the case too here in Africa.  This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.
Click to expand...

I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?  

Are you an opponent of catholic schools?  Well catholic schools don't tax you.  Government indoctrination schools do.  And you get nothing for it.  You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.  

Are you a bigoted atheist, dear?


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## SweetSue92

anotherlife said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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> Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?
> 
> Are you an opponent of catholic schools?  Well catholic schools don't tax you.  Government indoctrination schools do.  And you get nothing for it.  You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.
> 
> Are you a bigoted atheist, dear?
Click to expand...


Your belief that all school teachers are there to "indoctrinate" children is faith-based. You have no evidence for it and simply believe what you have been told, the select stories you have read. It's like a religion for conservatives--red meat for the base.

I say this as a conservative evangelical Christian who teaches in the public schools, but does not belong to the union. 

It's hogwash, in short, what you believe. Take me, for example


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## anotherlife

SweetSue92 said:


> anotherlife said:
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> Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?
> 
> Are you an opponent of catholic schools?  Well catholic schools don't tax you.  Government indoctrination schools do.  And you get nothing for it.  You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.
> 
> Are you a bigoted atheist, dear?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your belief that all school teachers are there to "indoctrinate" children is faith-based. You have no evidence for it and simply believe what you have been told, the select stories you have read. It's like a religion for conservatives--red meat for the base.
> 
> I say this as a conservative evangelical Christian who teaches in the public schools, but does not belong to the union.
> 
> It's hogwash, in short, what you believe. Take me, for example
Click to expand...


But I do see signs of indoctrination.  For example, the push that you can be anything you want, or that you are gay, or that the government is for your service.


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## SweetSue92

anotherlife said:


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> Andylusion said:
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> Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?
> 
> Are you an opponent of catholic schools?  Well catholic schools don't tax you.  Government indoctrination schools do.  And you get nothing for it.  You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.
> 
> Are you a bigoted atheist, dear?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your belief that all school teachers are there to "indoctrinate" children is faith-based. You have no evidence for it and simply believe what you have been told, the select stories you have read. It's like a religion for conservatives--red meat for the base.
> 
> I say this as a conservative evangelical Christian who teaches in the public schools, but does not belong to the union.
> 
> It's hogwash, in short, what you believe. Take me, for example
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But I do see signs of indoctrination.  For example, the push that you can be anything you want, or that you are gay, or that the government is for your service.
Click to expand...


"Signs of indoctrination" is not even close to the absolute crap you have been spouting on this thread. 

So who's shoveling bs? Teachers in public schools, or conservatives lying about it?


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## anotherlife

SweetSue92 said:


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> Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?
> 
> Are you an opponent of catholic schools?  Well catholic schools don't tax you.  Government indoctrination schools do.  And you get nothing for it.  You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.
> 
> Are you a bigoted atheist, dear?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your belief that all school teachers are there to "indoctrinate" children is faith-based. You have no evidence for it and simply believe what you have been told, the select stories you have read. It's like a religion for conservatives--red meat for the base.
> 
> I say this as a conservative evangelical Christian who teaches in the public schools, but does not belong to the union.
> 
> It's hogwash, in short, what you believe. Take me, for example
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But I do see signs of indoctrination.  For example, the push that you can be anything you want, or that you are gay, or that the government is for your service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Signs of indoctrination" is not even close to the absolute crap you have been spouting on this thread.
> 
> So who's shoveling bs? Teachers in public schools, or conservatives lying about it?
Click to expand...


It is not crap, but a fact, that teacher unions control property taxes, therefore extorting a blank check for their pension plans yearly. 

Your liberal democrat indoctrination prevents you from seeing this obvious problem.


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## SweetSue92

anotherlife said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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> SweetSue92 said:
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> This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?
> 
> Are you an opponent of catholic schools?  Well catholic schools don't tax you.  Government indoctrination schools do.  And you get nothing for it.  You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.
> 
> Are you a bigoted atheist, dear?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your belief that all school teachers are there to "indoctrinate" children is faith-based. You have no evidence for it and simply believe what you have been told, the select stories you have read. It's like a religion for conservatives--red meat for the base.
> 
> I say this as a conservative evangelical Christian who teaches in the public schools, but does not belong to the union.
> 
> It's hogwash, in short, what you believe. Take me, for example
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But I do see signs of indoctrination.  For example, the push that you can be anything you want, or that you are gay, or that the government is for your service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Signs of indoctrination" is not even close to the absolute crap you have been spouting on this thread.
> 
> So who's shoveling bs? Teachers in public schools, or conservatives lying about it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not crap, but a fact, that teacher unions control property taxes, therefore extorting a blank check for their pension plans yearly.
> 
> Your liberal democrat indoctrination prevents you from seeing this obvious problem.
Click to expand...


I am not a liberal democrat. I am a conservative. I never vote Democrat, only Republican. Don't love all Republicans but loathe Democrat policies, so much that I quit the union over it years ago. I belong instead to a Christian teachers' union. And in my state, teachers unions do not control property taxes--I have no idea what you're talking about. 

You have taken a few stories about indoctrination in very liberal areas and extrapolated that to the whole nation. Do you really think teachers in anytown, Kansas or Alabama or North Dakota are indoctrinating their students into liberal policies--or that anyone has time for this? Really?


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## anotherlife

SweetSue92 said:


> anotherlife said:
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> anotherlife said:
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> 
> I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?
> 
> Are you an opponent of catholic schools?  Well catholic schools don't tax you.  Government indoctrination schools do.  And you get nothing for it.  You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.
> 
> Are you a bigoted atheist, dear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your belief that all school teachers are there to "indoctrinate" children is faith-based. You have no evidence for it and simply believe what you have been told, the select stories you have read. It's like a religion for conservatives--red meat for the base.
> 
> I say this as a conservative evangelical Christian who teaches in the public schools, but does not belong to the union.
> 
> It's hogwash, in short, what you believe. Take me, for example
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But I do see signs of indoctrination.  For example, the push that you can be anything you want, or that you are gay, or that the government is for your service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Signs of indoctrination" is not even close to the absolute crap you have been spouting on this thread.
> 
> So who's shoveling bs? Teachers in public schools, or conservatives lying about it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not crap, but a fact, that teacher unions control property taxes, therefore extorting a blank check for their pension plans yearly.
> 
> Your liberal democrat indoctrination prevents you from seeing this obvious problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not a liberal democrat. I am a conservative. I never vote Democrat, only Republican. Don't love all Republicans but loathe Democrat policies, so much that I quit the union over it years ago. I belong instead to a Christian teachers' union. And in my state, teachers unions do not control property taxes--I have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> You have taken a few stories about indoctrination in very liberal areas and extrapolated that to the whole nation. Do you really think teachers in anytown, Kansas or Alabama or North Dakota are indoctrinating their students into liberal policies--or that anyone has time for this? Really?
Click to expand...


I think the primary problem is financial, not even professional.  

But professionally, it is still true, that teachers and parents are in this haze of merry hand-in-hand bosom fraternity with each other for the purpose of bullying unsuspecting retard pupils that they must sacrifice everything in order to be the best in whatever they tell them that they are the best in.  Hehehe.  

So, from this fact, it is very easy to con the families to write all those blank checks every tax year for the benefit of the teacher unions.  

Is your argument to the contrary that you found a town in the USA where it is not so? Hooray, even I know that that would be a chance of maybe 1 : million.  Try again.


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## initforme

Well another I gotta say my 4 kids all attended public schools here(rural)...they received a great education and all are doing well in their chosen careers.  The teachers for the most part were outstanding and this indoctrination empty rhetoric was nonexistent.  Those teachers were just people like you and i.  In fact you will be happy to know our community just passed a referendum to increase taxes to keep things going....it was overwhelmingly supported. I will pay 80 dollars more per year for the next 4 years and iIam proud to do it.  The community uses the pool, fitness center and auditorium frequently and teachers are there supervising and helping out.  Also are you aware that local school boards set the curriculum.  The teachers are bound to teach it.  If you want quality you pay for it.  Sue is the winner in this post.


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## sealybobo

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> Terrible idea.  Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.
> 
> I would rather leave it to the local level.  Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government.  You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want.   Bad idea.  Terrible idea.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...
> 
> I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
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> 
> Your dream of homosexual segregation isn’t very practical, Giovanni.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Look up the states that collect the least to pay for schools. I could move to one of those states but then I’d be in a red state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and you would get a better education too.  I hear also that the best US universities are now there.  Too bad, too many democrat scum bags are now moving into the red states to save their money, not realizing that it is their own democrat idiocy that will turn the red state blue and make them lose their savings like they never moved to begin with.  Same affliction as the Honduras gang bangers climbing across the wall and bringing Honduras with them.  How safe are red states?
Click to expand...

Sorry but MSU and uom are two great universities in the USA.

You’d have to post a link showing the best schools are in red states. I don’t buy that at all. 

The advantage you may have is you don’t have ghettos. Ever think of that?


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## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
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> Andylusion said:
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> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
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> WRONG.
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> ...
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> If I am wrong, then I am wrong. ...
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> You're wrong.
Click to expand...

It’s not enough to just say he’s wrong. Prove it


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## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


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> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
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> Yes they did.
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> No, they did not.  .....
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> Yes, they did. Do not lie, I know better.
Click to expand...

Andy why do you engage with this as Clown?


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## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


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> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
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> I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.
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> They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?
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> Click to expand...
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> The part where you lie over and over again.
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> Why would I lie about this?   For what reason?
> 
> Grades pointless? Some colleges don't care about GPAs
> 
> Parents and their high school students are fascinated by the grade point average and what it means in college admissions, but the truth is that a number of colleges and universities are not all that interested.
> 
> Admissions officers at some of the nation's most selective colleges, who are now sending acceptance letters for their fall freshman classes, say they barely look at an applicant's GPA.
> 
> "It's meaningless," says Greg Roberts, admissions dean at the University of Virginia, ranked as the top public university in this year's 150 Best Value Colleges, published by The Princeton Review and based on academics and affordability.​
> So now I have on the record, direct quotes from people who work at the admissions of major universities, saying the exact same thing.
> 
> I'll ask you again.... what am I lying about, and prove it.
> 
> As I said before, I specifically asked if the college I applied at, was looking at my GPA.  They said directly "no".   So now, YOU are the liar.
> 
> Why do you keep lying?  You know I'm right, and I have the facts to prove it.  Why are you lying to everyone on this forum, this entire thread?   Does that stroke your ego to claim others are lying, when you are the one lying?
Click to expand...

You are offering a lot in defense of your arguments. Unkotare isn’t contributing. To me it seems like he’s letting you do all the talking.

A man of few words.


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## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.


Some colleges do.

GPA is important but you can completely blow off high school, go to community college for one semester, get good grades and get into a great university. Doesn’t mean you will succeed. You got to be smart to graduate from a great college. Same as my youngest nephew is going to drop out of his private school. It’s too hard. He will get Bs in a public school though and do fine at a good university like I did. If only public school teachers prepared their kids for college and finding a great career but what do they know they went to school to be teachers. They don’t know shit about business, engineering, computers, becoming a doctor, etc. It’s rare I hope you are explaining what it takes to become these other things. I don’t think you teachers do.

My driving factor to graduating college was 

Get a great job in sales.
Don’t be a loser who couldn’t finish
Don’t move back to my parents house.

No public school teacher inspired me. What do they know they went to college to go back to high school. Think about that. Who inspired me? I ran a stockbrokers gym in 11th and 12th grade. I wanted to be a baller stock broker like him. Instead I’m a baller sales guy who sells something else. Certainly not cars.

Public school teaching needs to be reformed. Your shit is outdated. Devos is right


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## sealybobo

Flopper said:


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> this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have.  In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year.  So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else.  Very clever though.  Hehehe.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching.  Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers.  The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education.  Even with more education  advancement is not likely.  Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money.  Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions.   What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen.  Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.
> 
> A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years.  She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom.  She loves teaching and loves kids.  I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it.  The pay is immaterial.  However, most teachers are not like this.  They teach because they need a paycheck.  If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people.  It's that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> However, in the private sector, there are more opportunities because the private sector has greater economic growth than public education.  Teachers don't get bonuses when business is good or profit sharing plans, and have little opportunity for advancement regardless of their teaching ability.  Unlike the private sector, a teacher is not likely to improve his or her financial situation by taking another job in the area because the public school system is often the only game in town for most teachers since most private schools pay less than public schools.
> 
> Like all fields, teaching has it's pros and cons.  As a teacher you get relatively good job security, pension, and days off.  The cons are a poor chance advancement, long work days, and a requirement 4 to 6 years in college.
Click to expand...

I asked my nephew who goes to an expensive private school how much his teachers make he said less than public teachers but

Smaller class sizes
No trouble students, or not as many bad students who act up or have behavior issues.
They can live on campus free
Their kids can go for free or half off.

I have a feeling if we privatized teaching we could find teachers. We know these teachers here would go along with whatever the republicans do about teachers unions.

Hell the one teacher lady here who blocked me said she doesn’t pay her union dues. Her job needs to be outsourced.

No more striking. You strike you’re fired. No more unions. That shit is over.

She thinks I’m mean because I want her to lose her job because she makes too much. Lose her pension too.

Well it won’t be me who does it it’ll be the republicans she voted for.

Who cares what I wish for. She votes for it. What’s worse?


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## Unkotare

anotherlife said:


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> Hey are all you guys reading this??     I'm not making this crap up!   I've read about school systems all over the world.   We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA.  We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe but I think Great Britain is even stupider.  The other year, They suddenly changed the high school diploma test which is nationalized in that country.  But they didn't print any study books or exercise materials, nor did they notify teachers about it.  So the GPA of the entire country fell by like 1.9 suddenly in that year.  So America is not the stupidest of all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well... yeah, but if we have government controlled education, what happened there, will happen here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.  Government control over education is an even bigger problem.  And it will be very hard to kick the government out, because public education was invented for the very purpose of indoctrination for the government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is absolute nonsense but you won't believe it. You're too deep into your faith system to believe it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have not used a religious argument in this thread.  So what are you talking about?
> 
> ....You have to live in a carefully selected rare school district to actually learn something in a public school.
> 
> ...?
Click to expand...



Another one talking out his ass.


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## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...You got to be smart to graduate from a great college. ..
Click to expand...


Wrong again. No surprise yet again you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Flopper said:
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> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
> 
> The common complain about tenure is that it's difficult to fire poor performing teachers. That's true but my experience has been that all but the smallest school districts have ways of handling poor performing teachers.  Really bad teachers are often the result of a wrong choice of career.  Offering a non-instruction job sometimes works.  In most districts if a principal wants get rid of you they can.   There are always ways, transfers, rotations, and special jobs.
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is an example of how tenure works exactly like you said.  In Florida, I was teacher for 8 years, had tenure and belonged to the union.  When I received my Master's degree in Educational Leadership, my principal selected me to fill a vacant Assistant Principal role.  About three months later, the principal's father passed away leaving him a $9 million estate, so he retired.  The district hired a new principal to start the next school year who was pregnant with twins and had just recovered from a difficult pregnancy the year before that nearly killed her.  She missed the vast majority of the school year, and we ran the school very well in her absence.  When she finally returned, with about three months to go in the school year, she became very jealous of my reputation for enforcing discipline in the school with our district superiors.
> 
> Towards the end of school, I received an email from the district with the opportunities for promotion for the next school year.  Guess whose name was on it as leaving?  Me!
> 
> She didn't even have the guts to tell me that my contract was not being renewed. Later that afternoon, she sent me an email telling me I was no longer going to have a job there.  She sent an email!  She never spoke to me again the remainder of the school year and I worked until the end of June.  The coop de grace was that she hired her best friend who was an administrator in a another school to take my place.
> 
> That is the kind of crap that teachers who do not have tenure still have to tolerate today!
> 
> The good news is that the remained of the staff saw what she did to me and she was removed at the end of the following school year.
Click to expand...

Don’t you vote for republicans? Right to work means right to fire you for any reason. Welcome to our world in the private sector.

You didn’t have tenure if they were allowed to fire you. Was there cause? Something you’re not telling us? What did the union say?


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## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> Andylusion said:
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> ...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA.  ...
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> WRONG.
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> Click to expand...
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> When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school.  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Yes they did.
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> 
> 
> No, they did not.  I asked.  Said I only needed a diploma.  Which I had.  I know this because my GPA was horrendous.  I was a terrible student.   I was worried that my exceptionally low GPA would keep me out of college.  They didn't care.  They said they didn't care.   They wanted to know my SAT scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I went to college many years ago, the only thing you needed for admission to the state university was a high school diploma.  I can assure you that is not the case today.  However, admission to most community colleges only requires a diploma.  If you're willing to pay enough money in tuition or willing to go to one of the worst 4 year schools in the country, they'll take you with a 2.0 or maybe even lower.
> 
> However, if you plan on using your degree to help you get a good job, you need go to at least a fairly well recognized school and not a degree mill or you may find you just wasted your money.
Click to expand...

That now depends on the hr manager looking at your resume. I was an enrollment counselor for University of Phoenix. There is no lower university in the minds of the masses. But it’s an accredited university and regionally accredited. No reason to think it’s not a good school. Employers only look up to see if the school is accredited. If it is you should be ok.

But a Fortune 500 won’t hire a guy who gets a masters at University of Phoenix. They go to places like university of Michigan and Michigan state to recruit.

But, someone who works at a Fortune 500 on the line might go to University of Phoenix if the employer is paying and advancing people with higher educations.

It’s a great school if you already work and want to move up at your company.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.


Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average. 

And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not going to argue with your experience.  I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer.   Which is true.  I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.
> 
> So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it.  What solutions have teachers given?
> 
> *Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.*
> 
> Well yeah.  Of course.    What is your point?   You do realize that Finland does this?  Most of Europe, does this.    Students that are crap, are kicked out.   Thus they do better at educating.
> 
> Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed.   This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up.  High end schools, don't take non-high-end students.  If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go.  You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.
> 
> So yes!  Exactly!   Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids.  Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.
> 
> Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth.   Yeah, exactly.   Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated.  People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.
> 
> *I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.*
> 
> No, of course not.   The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.
> 
> So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.
> 
> There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.
> 
> The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then this is simple: do not compare foreign, private, or charter schools to public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That makes no sense.   The job of a public school is to educate.  The job of a private or charter school is to educate.  Why would we not compare?
> 
> You have two systems.  One sucks.  One works.   Should you not compare the two to see what differences between the systems, cause what outcomes?
> 
> Are you saying that we should not compare the US public school system to any other school system on the planet? Because nearly all other school systems, kick out bad students, like private and charter schools.
> 
> That sounds like a method of avoiding the flaws in the system, in order to maintain a bad system.
> 
> In short, you are basically saying exactly what I claimed teachers and teachers unions have been saying.
> Is that unfair?   Why would you say that otherwise?   Other than to maintain a terrible system?
> 
> If I am misreading your post, feel free to correct me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you need me to explain this to you?
> 
> It's like a car company bragging about how the average top speed of their vehicles is 150 mph. Okay, says the Other Company, but they're all luxury cars. We make mopeds. Throw some of those in. But the first company says, we don't make mopeds, we only make luxury cars and won't take mopeds.
> 
> Then you can't compare them, can you? If the first company made mopeds, the average speed would go DOWN. But they don't. So they brag about their speed outcomes. Exactly as you have said---just get rid of the bad performers and magically, you're a top performing school.
> 
> This is not difficult.
Click to expand...

So we pay public school teachers more because they are dealing with the masses instead of good kids from good parents who are paying to educate their kids rather than send them to public schools.

Why are we ignoring the opinion of all the best citizens in our country? They are all makers not takers. If public schools were just as good they wouldn’t be spending all that money.


----------



## sealybobo

Public schools are good for average people like me but why pay teachers more to educate dummies like me? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

If we broke the unions and collective bargaining public school teachers would be complaining about the $50k they make rather than the $70k they make now.

The answer is not more money


----------



## anotherlife

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have convinced me.  Centralization is always bad, I must agree.  What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools.  Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use.  The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets.  How can we stop them then?  They will play one school district against the other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your dream of homosexual segregation isn’t very practical, Giovanni.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look up the states that collect the least to pay for schools. I could move to one of those states but then I’d be in a red state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and you would get a better education too.  I hear also that the best US universities are now there.  Too bad, too many democrat scum bags are now moving into the red states to save their money, not realizing that it is their own democrat idiocy that will turn the red state blue and make them lose their savings like they never moved to begin with.  Same affliction as the Honduras gang bangers climbing across the wall and bringing Honduras with them.  How safe are red states?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but MSU and uom are two great universities in the USA.
> 
> You’d have to post a link showing the best schools are in red states. I don’t buy that at all.
> 
> The advantage you may have is you don’t have ghettos. Ever think of that?
Click to expand...

That is an important advantage indeed.


----------



## Andylusion

aa


SweetSue92 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers....  You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.
> 
> Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers.  It just is true.   The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example.  There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
> Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video
> 
> And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.
> 
> They never have any other fix.   I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything.  It's always "we need more money".   And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.
> 
> Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money!  We need to pay teachers more!".
> 
> So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.
> 
> Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.
> 
> Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools.  There is no question.  They use less money, and have better educational outcomes.   Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.
> 
> They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.
> 
> So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.
> 
> You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.
> 
> Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.
> 
> I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not going to argue with your experience.  I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer.   Which is true.  I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.
> 
> So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it.  What solutions have teachers given?
> 
> *Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.*
> 
> Well yeah.  Of course.    What is your point?   You do realize that Finland does this?  Most of Europe, does this.    Students that are crap, are kicked out.   Thus they do better at educating.
> 
> Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed.   This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up.  High end schools, don't take non-high-end students.  If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go.  You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.
> 
> So yes!  Exactly!   Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids.  Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.
> 
> Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth.   Yeah, exactly.   Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated.  People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.
> 
> *I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.*
> 
> No, of course not.   The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.
> 
> So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.
> 
> There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.
> 
> The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then this is simple: do not compare foreign, private, or charter schools to public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That makes no sense.   The job of a public school is to educate.  The job of a private or charter school is to educate.  Why would we not compare?
> 
> You have two systems.  One sucks.  One works.   Should you not compare the two to see what differences between the systems, cause what outcomes?
> 
> Are you saying that we should not compare the US public school system to any other school system on the planet? Because nearly all other school systems, kick out bad students, like private and charter schools.
> 
> That sounds like a method of avoiding the flaws in the system, in order to maintain a bad system.
> 
> In short, you are basically saying exactly what I claimed teachers and teachers unions have been saying.
> Is that unfair?   Why would you say that otherwise?   Other than to maintain a terrible system?
> 
> If I am misreading your post, feel free to correct me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you need me to explain this to you?
> 
> It's like a car company bragging about how the average top speed of their vehicles is 150 mph. Okay, says the Other Company, but they're all luxury cars. We make mopeds. Throw some of those in. But the first company says, we don't make mopeds, we only make luxury cars and won't take mopeds.
> 
> Then you can't compare them, can you? If the first company made mopeds, the average speed would go DOWN. But they don't. So they brag about their speed outcomes. Exactly as you have said---just get rid of the bad performers and magically, you're a top performing school.
> 
> This is not difficult.
Click to expand...


But the selling point of a private school, is basic education for your child.  The selling point of a public school, is a basic education for your child.

ABCs, 123s.

There is no difference in the goal of the educational system.  Reading, Writing, Arithmetic.  

From a K-12 perspective, everyone should be able to have a 12th Grade Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic level of education, by the time they are ready for college.

Private schools, are not selling you an advanced doctorate in nuclear Engineering.  They are focusing on the 3-Rs, of education.

Now I'm not talking about some elite academy somewhere, for the Einsteins of the world.  I'm talking about basic private K-12 schools.

They are not selling luxury sports cars.  They are selling the soccer mom Chevy.

Why should we not compare the two?  I think that is vital.

Again... most of the fundamental differences between private and public schools here in the US, are also true in most of Europe.   Most of Europe operates the same way private schools do in the US.

We are the only public school system, that ties our hands and feet to a terrible system, and wonders why it costs the most in the world, and has lousy educational outcomes.




 

Survey of 12th grade students.   Year over year, the number of students that have the minimum requirements, has dropped.

Your system isn't work.  Period.    This is fail.  It's a slow moving disaster.

Something has to change.

And the truly sad part of those stats above, is that those include test results from private and charter schools.   I wager by looking at public government run schools alone, the numbers would be worse.


----------



## Google_Yourself

We should wait until teachers stop turn kids into little retarded ANTIFA members before we start paying them more.


----------



## Andylusion

SweetSue92 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
> 
> The common complain about tenure is that it's difficult to fire poor performing teachers. That's true but my experience has been that all but the smallest school districts have ways of handling poor performing teachers.  Really bad teachers are often the result of a wrong choice of career.  Offering a non-instruction job sometimes works.  In most districts if a principal wants get rid of you they can.   There are always ways, transfers, rotations, and special jobs.
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is an example of how tenure works exactly like you said.  In Florida, I was teacher for 8 years, had tenure and belonged to the union.  When I received my Master's degree in Educational Leadership, my principal selected me to fill a vacant Assistant Principal role.  About three months later, the principal's father passed away leaving him a $9 million estate, so he retired.  The district hired a new principal to start the next school year who was pregnant with twins and had just recovered from a difficult pregnancy the year before that nearly killed her.  She missed the vast majority of the school year, and we ran the school very well in her absence.  When she finally returned, with about three months to go in the school year, she became very jealous of my reputation for enforcing discipline in the school with our district superiors.
> 
> Towards the end of school, I received an email from the district with the opportunities for promotion for the next school year.  Guess whose name was on it as leaving?  Me!
> 
> She didn't even have the guts to tell me that my contract was not being renewed. Later that afternoon, she sent me an email telling me I was no longer going to have a job there.  She sent an email!  She never spoke to me again the remainder of the school year and I worked until the end of June.  The coop de grace was that she hired her best friend who was an administrator in a another school to take my place.
> 
> That is the kind of crap that teachers who do not have tenure still have to tolerate today!
> 
> The good news is that the remained of the staff saw what she did to me and she was removed at the end of the following school year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are too many admins like this in schools. They are truly horrible. The stories are legion.
Click to expand...


Both of my parents had similar experience.

Here is what I would suggest to you:

In a free-market capitalist-based system, that is far less likely to happen.

See in a free-market capitalist based system, customers are fluid.  If you do something that doesn't meet customer demands, you lose money, or worse you go out of business.

So in that situation, the owners and investors in the company, are always desperately looking for people who can succeed and make the system work.

A man like the prior would be applauded for running the school effectively, and having discipline, and so on.  Because having an effective school, is how you keep customers (parents) happy to have their kids in that school, and thus bringing in profits to the owners.

But that system doesn't exist in public schools.  Why?  Because firing a capable and effective employee, to be replaced by an less capable 'friend', has zero effect on anything.

The parents might be able to move their kids, but not their tax money.  Either way, the money still flows, no matter how competent, or incompetent the management is.

In fact, in some ways the more incompetent, the better off the schools are.   I believe it was in New Jersey, if the schools performed below a certain threshold, they qualified for additional funding.  Naturally after getting the additional funding, results improved.... slightly... never so much as to exceed the threshold for additional funding.

Crazy how that happened.

This of course causes a perverse incentive to do poorly, to qualify for more money.   Again, a situation that is almost entirely impossible in a free-market capitalist system.

Under that system, parents remove their children from under performing schools, and place them in better performing schools.  Thus money is removed from poorly performing systems, and added to well performing systems.

Giving more money for worse performance, is only something that can happen under government.   And this happens routinely.  Special interest demand money for a project, the project goes badly, and they lobby it wasn't enough money.  So more money is given.

We saw this under Obama.  Spent the largest stimulus package in US history, and when the results were trash, they said we didn't spend enough.

Point being....   it is the system that is the problem.  We need to eliminate this system.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
> 
> The common complain about tenure is that it's difficult to fire poor performing teachers. That's true but my experience has been that all but the smallest school districts have ways of handling poor performing teachers.  Really bad teachers are often the result of a wrong choice of career.  Offering a non-instruction job sometimes works.  In most districts if a principal wants get rid of you they can.   There are always ways, transfers, rotations, and special jobs.
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is an example of how tenure works exactly like you said.  In Florida, I was teacher for 8 years, had tenure and belonged to the union.  When I received my Master's degree in Educational Leadership, my principal selected me to fill a vacant Assistant Principal role.  About three months later, the principal's father passed away leaving him a $9 million estate, so he retired.  The district hired a new principal to start the next school year who was pregnant with twins and had just recovered from a difficult pregnancy the year before that nearly killed her.  She missed the vast majority of the school year, and we ran the school very well in her absence.  When she finally returned, with about three months to go in the school year, she became very jealous of my reputation for enforcing discipline in the school with our district superiors.
> 
> Towards the end of school, I received an email from the district with the opportunities for promotion for the next school year.  Guess whose name was on it as leaving?  Me!
> 
> She didn't even have the guts to tell me that my contract was not being renewed. Later that afternoon, she sent me an email telling me I was no longer going to have a job there.  She sent an email!  She never spoke to me again the remainder of the school year and I worked until the end of June.  The coop de grace was that she hired her best friend who was an administrator in a another school to take my place.
> 
> That is the kind of crap that teachers who do not have tenure still have to tolerate today!
> 
> The good news is that the remained of the staff saw what she did to me and she was removed at the end of the following school year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don’t you vote for republicans? Right to work means right to fire you for any reason. Welcome to our world in the private sector.
> 
> You didn’t have tenure if they were allowed to fire you. Was there cause? Something you’re not telling us? What did the union say?
Click to expand...



Ignorant


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
Click to expand...



Wrong, idiot.


----------



## Andylusion

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.
> 
> They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The part where you lie over and over again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would I lie about this?   For what reason?
> 
> Grades pointless? Some colleges don't care about GPAs
> 
> Parents and their high school students are fascinated by the grade point average and what it means in college admissions, but the truth is that a number of colleges and universities are not all that interested.
> 
> Admissions officers at some of the nation's most selective colleges, who are now sending acceptance letters for their fall freshman classes, say they barely look at an applicant's GPA.
> 
> "It's meaningless," says Greg Roberts, admissions dean at the University of Virginia, ranked as the top public university in this year's 150 Best Value Colleges, published by The Princeton Review and based on academics and affordability.​
> So now I have on the record, direct quotes from people who work at the admissions of major universities, saying the exact same thing.
> 
> I'll ask you again.... what am I lying about, and prove it.
> 
> As I said before, I specifically asked if the college I applied at, was looking at my GPA.  They said directly "no".   So now, YOU are the liar.
> 
> Why do you keep lying?  You know I'm right, and I have the facts to prove it.  Why are you lying to everyone on this forum, this entire thread?   Does that stroke your ego to claim others are lying, when you are the one lying?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are offering a lot in defense of your arguments. Unkotare isn’t contributing. To me it seems like he’s letting you do all the talking.
> 
> A man of few words.
Click to expand...


Totally.   Unkotare usually has more to offer than this.  I'm wondering if some Bernie supporters hacked his account or something.   All his done this thread is "you lie! you suck! wrong!".  He's less interesting than the seagulls in Finding Nemo at this point.


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, idiot.
Click to expand...


Ignored.   Bye Unkotare.  If you have nothing to say, then you are just a burden to the forum.  Nice knowing you.


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
> 
> The common complain about tenure is that it's difficult to fire poor performing teachers. That's true but my experience has been that all but the smallest school districts have ways of handling poor performing teachers.  Really bad teachers are often the result of a wrong choice of career.  Offering a non-instruction job sometimes works.  In most districts if a principal wants get rid of you they can.   There are always ways, transfers, rotations, and special jobs.
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is an example of how tenure works exactly like you said.  In Florida, I was teacher for 8 years, had tenure and belonged to the union.  When I received my Master's degree in Educational Leadership, my principal selected me to fill a vacant Assistant Principal role.  About three months later, the principal's father passed away leaving him a $9 million estate, so he retired.  The district hired a new principal to start the next school year who was pregnant with twins and had just recovered from a difficult pregnancy the year before that nearly killed her.  She missed the vast majority of the school year, and we ran the school very well in her absence.  When she finally returned, with about three months to go in the school year, she became very jealous of my reputation for enforcing discipline in the school with our district superiors.
> 
> Towards the end of school, I received an email from the district with the opportunities for promotion for the next school year.  Guess whose name was on it as leaving?  Me!
> 
> She didn't even have the guts to tell me that my contract was not being renewed. Later that afternoon, she sent me an email telling me I was no longer going to have a job there.  She sent an email!  She never spoke to me again the remainder of the school year and I worked until the end of June.  The coop de grace was that she hired her best friend who was an administrator in a another school to take my place.
> 
> That is the kind of crap that teachers who do not have tenure still have to tolerate today!
> 
> The good news is that the remained of the staff saw what she did to me and she was removed at the end of the following school year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are too many admins like this in schools. They are truly horrible. The stories are legion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Both of my parents had similar experience.
> 
> Here is what I would suggest to you:
> 
> In a free-market capitalist-based system, that is far less likely to happen.
> 
> See in a free-market capitalist based system, customers are fluid.  If you do something that doesn't meet customer demands, you lose money, or worse you go out of business.
> 
> So in that situation, the owners and investors in the company, are always desperately looking for people who can succeed and make the system work.
> 
> A man like the prior would be applauded for running the school effectively, and having discipline, and so on.  Because having an effective school, is how you keep customers (parents) happy to have their kids in that school, and thus bringing in profits to the owners.
> 
> But that system doesn't exist in public schools.  Why?  Because firing a capable and effective employee, to be replaced by an less capable 'friend', has zero effect on anything.
> 
> The parents might be able to move their kids, but not their tax money.  Either way, the money still flows, no matter how competent, or incompetent the management is.
> 
> In fact, in some ways the more incompetent, the better off the schools are.   I believe it was in New Jersey, if the schools performed below a certain threshold, they qualified for additional funding.  Naturally after getting the additional funding, results improved.... slightly... never so much as to exceed the threshold for additional funding.
> 
> Crazy how that happened.
> 
> This of course causes a perverse incentive to do poorly, to qualify for more money.   Again, a situation that is almost entirely impossible in a free-market capitalist system.
> 
> Under that system, parents remove their children from under performing schools, and place them in better performing schools.  Thus money is removed from poorly performing systems, and added to well performing systems.
> 
> Giving more money for worse performance, is only something that can happen under government.   And this happens routinely.  Special interest demand money for a project, the project goes badly, and they lobby it wasn't enough money.  So more money is given.
> 
> We saw this under Obama.  Spent the largest stimulus package in US history, and when the results were trash, they said we didn't spend enough.
> 
> Point being....   it is the system that is the problem.  We need to eliminate this system.
Click to expand...

Sue makes me hate socialized education just as much as republicans like her hate socialized medicine and unions


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...You got to be smart to graduate from a great college. ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong again. No surprise yet again you have no idea what you are talking about.
Click to expand...

How so?


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, idiot.
Click to expand...

How so? Fishy. 

Oh and Mary Christmas. Yes, I went to public school.

Mother merry and Joseph.


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.
> 
> They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The part where you lie over and over again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would I lie about this?   For what reason?
> 
> Grades pointless? Some colleges don't care about GPAs
> 
> Parents and their high school students are fascinated by the grade point average and what it means in college admissions, but the truth is that a number of colleges and universities are not all that interested.
> 
> Admissions officers at some of the nation's most selective colleges, who are now sending acceptance letters for their fall freshman classes, say they barely look at an applicant's GPA.
> 
> "It's meaningless," says Greg Roberts, admissions dean at the University of Virginia, ranked as the top public university in this year's 150 Best Value Colleges, published by The Princeton Review and based on academics and affordability.​
> So now I have on the record, direct quotes from people who work at the admissions of major universities, saying the exact same thing.
> 
> I'll ask you again.... what am I lying about, and prove it.
> 
> As I said before, I specifically asked if the college I applied at, was looking at my GPA.  They said directly "no".   So now, YOU are the liar.
> 
> Why do you keep lying?  You know I'm right, and I have the facts to prove it.  Why are you lying to everyone on this forum, this entire thread?   Does that stroke your ego to claim others are lying, when you are the one lying?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are offering a lot in defense of your arguments. Unkotare isn’t contributing. To me it seems like he’s letting you do all the talking.
> 
> A man of few words.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Totally.   Unkotare usually has more to offer than this.  I'm wondering if some Bernie supporters hacked his account or something.   All his done this thread is "you lie! you suck! wrong!".  He's less interesting than the seagulls in Finding Nemo at this point.
Click to expand...

I’ve never seen him act any other way.

Imagine he’s a teacher teaching inner city children. No wonder we have a problem. He thinks he’s the best doing the best he can do. He has it half right he is doing the best he can do but it’s clearly not good enough.


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ignored.   Bye Unkotare.  If you have nothing to say, then you are just a burden to the forum.  Nice knowing you.
Click to expand...

See what I mean? Are you just realizing this about him?

Are you a conservative? He agrees with conservatives on most issues he knows nothing about but when it comes to his public education unionized tenured collective bargaining job he’s a total liberal. This may be why you think he usually adds more. He doesn’t. Not ever. You just may not be the one he’s frustrating.

He also derails the thread by making me call him out. Then I get banned. I will put him on ignore too.

Same with that snowflake lady teacher who put me on ignore. She can’t stand her own hypocrisy. She cries because I hope she loses her liberal benefits and entitlements but she votes for right to work legislation so she should have to worry about her job just like the rest of us.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
> 
> The common complain about tenure is that it's difficult to fire poor performing teachers. That's true but my experience has been that all but the smallest school districts have ways of handling poor performing teachers.  Really bad teachers are often the result of a wrong choice of career.  Offering a non-instruction job sometimes works.  In most districts if a principal wants get rid of you they can.   There are always ways, transfers, rotations, and special jobs.
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is an example of how tenure works exactly like you said.  In Florida, I was teacher for 8 years, had tenure and belonged to the union.  When I received my Master's degree in Educational Leadership, my principal selected me to fill a vacant Assistant Principal role.  About three months later, the principal's father passed away leaving him a $9 million estate, so he retired.  The district hired a new principal to start the next school year who was pregnant with twins and had just recovered from a difficult pregnancy the year before that nearly killed her.  She missed the vast majority of the school year, and we ran the school very well in her absence.  When she finally returned, with about three months to go in the school year, she became very jealous of my reputation for enforcing discipline in the school with our district superiors.
> 
> Towards the end of school, I received an email from the district with the opportunities for promotion for the next school year.  Guess whose name was on it as leaving?  Me!
> 
> She didn't even have the guts to tell me that my contract was not being renewed. Later that afternoon, she sent me an email telling me I was no longer going to have a job there.  She sent an email!  She never spoke to me again the remainder of the school year and I worked until the end of June.  The coop de grace was that she hired her best friend who was an administrator in a another school to take my place.
> 
> That is the kind of crap that teachers who do not have tenure still have to tolerate today!
> 
> The good news is that the remained of the staff saw what she did to me and she was removed at the end of the following school year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don’t you vote for republicans? Right to work means right to fire you for any reason. Welcome to our world in the private sector.
> 
> You didn’t have tenure if they were allowed to fire you. Was there cause? Something you’re not telling us? What did the union say?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ignorant
Click to expand...

I’m putting you back on ignore for awhile


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I specifically..... SPECIFICALLY ASKED.... if my GPA was required to gain entrance.
> 
> They said.... NO.   What part of this, are you unable to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The part where you lie over and over again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would I lie about this?   For what reason?
> 
> Grades pointless? Some colleges don't care about GPAs
> 
> Parents and their high school students are fascinated by the grade point average and what it means in college admissions, but the truth is that a number of colleges and universities are not all that interested.
> 
> Admissions officers at some of the nation's most selective colleges, who are now sending acceptance letters for their fall freshman classes, say they barely look at an applicant's GPA.
> 
> "It's meaningless," says Greg Roberts, admissions dean at the University of Virginia, ranked as the top public university in this year's 150 Best Value Colleges, published by The Princeton Review and based on academics and affordability.​
> So now I have on the record, direct quotes from people who work at the admissions of major universities, saying the exact same thing.
> 
> I'll ask you again.... what am I lying about, and prove it.
> 
> As I said before, I specifically asked if the college I applied at, was looking at my GPA.  They said directly "no".   So now, YOU are the liar.
> 
> Why do you keep lying?  You know I'm right, and I have the facts to prove it.  Why are you lying to everyone on this forum, this entire thread?   Does that stroke your ego to claim others are lying, when you are the one lying?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are offering a lot in defense of your arguments. Unkotare isn’t contributing. To me it seems like he’s letting you do all the talking.
> 
> A man of few words.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Totally.   Unkotare usually has more to offer than this.  I'm wondering if some Bernie supporters hacked his account or something.   All his done this thread is "you lie! you suck! wrong!".  He's less interesting than the seagulls in Finding Nemo at this point.
Click to expand...

I just put him on ignore. I won’t see his irrelevant comment that come with no explanation.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, the trend is toward colleges weighing the SAT or ACT less than in previous years. The GPA is right there on the transcript. Colleges look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...You got to be smart to graduate from a great college. ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong again. No surprise yet again you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...





 Most of the time you have to be smart to get into a great college. Once you are in college, the difficulty of work depends upon what courses you are willing to take and how hard you are willing to work. Kind of education you get at any major college or university will be roughly equivalent and will depend on you. The Ivy League’s do not require harder work from their students than most other universities. In fact, the IVs are the most notorious grade inflators because they want it to look like they only except the very best. You have to suck pretty hard to get a B at Harvard. However, getting into Harvard is very difficult under most circumstances. And, when you graduate the piece of paper with the name Harvard on it carries a great deal of value.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
Click to expand...



Quite the contrary.


----------



## Flopper

anotherlife said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?
> 
> Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.

Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.

Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their  compensation.  So yes it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states district levies are capped.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get's additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, thee will be changes school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
Click to expand...

They worry about you passing these tests instead of preparing students for college.

Private schools get all their kids tested out of a year of college. They make their students study, a lot. So when they go off to college they know what to expect. 

I didn’t have a lot of inspiring teachers in highschool. They were nice but yawn


----------



## anotherlife

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
Click to expand...


This sounds nice on paper, but it is hard to imagine how you are not ending up like General Motors when you carry pension obligations year after year.  In fact, some sarcastic remarks from Wall Street call American auto makers investment houses that by the way also make cars.  

The big difference is that I can choose not to by a GM car if I don't want to sponsor their retirements.  But I am not allowed to choose not to pay school district taxes.  Therefore whilst it is already odd in auto circles, it is totally unethical in schools to burden people with their pensions.  

Most school budgets confirm that teacher salaries are much less than pension payouts, both coming from taxpayers directly. 

And your description of school accountability is only academic.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
Click to expand...


Your information is a little confused.  The rates of employee contribution vary, but in my state my retirement was funded 100% by yours truly!  Those funds were to be invested and the amount of my retirement would be based on my contributions over my employment.  The problem was that these funds were hijacked by Democrats in the legislature and governors to pay the state's bills and the retirement funds were never fully funded as they should have been.

I "retired" by resigning and pulling my funds out lump sum.  Paying off my bills will net me about $700.00 per month in additional savings which is far in excess of what I would ever get from the state.


----------



## sealybobo

anotherlife said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This sounds nice on paper, but it is hard to imagine how you are not ending up like General Motors when you carry pension obligations year after year.  In fact, some sarcastic remarks from Wall Street call American auto makers investment houses that by the way also make cars.
> 
> The big difference is that I can choose not to by a GM car if I don't want to sponsor their retirements.  But I am not allowed to choose not to pay school district taxes.  Therefore whilst it is already odd in auto circles, it is totally unethical in schools to burden people with their pensions.
> 
> Most school budgets confirm that teacher salaries are much less than pension payouts, both coming from taxpayers directly.
> 
> And your description of school accountability is only academic.
Click to expand...

I think we all agree pensions are a horrible idea. Pay someone a days wage for a days work. Unions were brilliant to negotiate and win pensions for their union members but its unaffordable 

But I also believe politicians shouldn’t get pensions after they retire either. Don’t take away teacher pensions and leave pensions for Paul Ryan and Nancy pelosi.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their  compensation.  So yes it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states district levies are capped.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get's additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, thee will be changes school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They worry about you passing these tests instead of preparing students for college.
> 
> Private schools get all their kids tested out of a year of college. They make their students study, a lot. So when they go off to college they know what to expect.
> 
> I didn’t have a lot of inspiring teachers in highschool. They were nice but yawn
Click to expand...

I have 4 grand kids in high school today in 3 different states.  What makes a huge difference in high school is being in advanced placement classes.   AP classes are usually taught by better teachers but the big difference is about 90% of the class is college bound so you don't have as much disruption in class by kids that are just there because the law or their parents are forcing them to be there.  Also there's a lot of homework, typically hours every night plus there are advanced topics taught that are not in standard classes.


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their  compensation.  So yes it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states district levies are capped.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get's additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, thee will be changes school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They worry about you passing these tests instead of preparing students for college.
> 
> Private schools get all their kids tested out of a year of college. They make their students study, a lot. So when they go off to college they know what to expect.
> 
> I didn’t have a lot of inspiring teachers in highschool. They were nice but yawn
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have 4 grand kids in high school today in 3 different states.  What makes a huge difference in high school is being in advanced placement classes.   AP classes are usually taught by better teachers but the big difference is about 90% of the class is college bound so you don't have as much disruption in class by kids that are just there because the law or their parents are forcing them to be there.  Also there's a lot of homework, typically hours every night plus there are advanced topics taught that are not in standard classes.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t AP material


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their  compensation.  So yes it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states district levies are capped.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get's additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, thee will be changes school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They worry about you passing these tests instead of preparing students for college.
> 
> Private schools get all their kids tested out of a year of college. They make their students study, a lot. So when they go off to college they know what to expect.
> 
> I didn’t have a lot of inspiring teachers in highschool. They were nice but yawn
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have 4 grand kids in high school today in 3 different states.  What makes a huge difference in high school is being in advanced placement classes.   AP classes are usually taught by better teachers but the big difference is about 90% of the class is college bound so you don't have as much disruption in class by kids that are just there because the law or their parents are forcing them to be there.  Also there's a lot of homework, typically hours every night plus there are advanced topics taught that are not in standard classes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wasn’t AP material
Click to expand...

Neither was I but that was long before there were AP classes.  People say schools don't give kids enough homework.  That has not been my experience.  My grand-kids work their ass off compared to what I did in high school


----------



## Flopper

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your information is a little confused.  The rates of employee contribution vary, but in my state my retirement was funded 100% by yours truly!  Those funds were to be invested and the amount of my retirement would be based on my contributions over my employment.  The problem was that these funds were hijacked by Democrats in the legislature and governors to pay the state's bills and the retirement funds were never fully funded as they should have been.
> 
> I "retired" by resigning and pulling my funds out lump sum.  Paying off my bills will net me about $700.00 per month in additional savings which is far in excess of what I would ever get from the state.
Click to expand...

Interesting.  I retired from a Florida school district to go into other work.  I only had 15 years in the retirement system but did get a pension.

Here is the link I got the employer contributions to retirement from
Just How Expensive and Generous Are Teacher Pension Plans?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flopper said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your information is a little confused.  The rates of employee contribution vary, but in my state my retirement was funded 100% by yours truly!  Those funds were to be invested and the amount of my retirement would be based on my contributions over my employment.  The problem was that these funds were hijacked by Democrats in the legislature and governors to pay the state's bills and the retirement funds were never fully funded as they should have been.
> 
> I "retired" by resigning and pulling my funds out lump sum.  Paying off my bills will net me about $700.00 per month in additional savings which is far in excess of what I would ever get from the state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting.  I retired from a Florida school district to go into other work.  I only had 15 years in the retirement system but did get a pension.
> 
> Here is the link I got the employer contributions to retirement from
> Just How Expensive and Generous Are Teacher Pension Plans?
Click to expand...


I retired from Florida and Kentucky.  The way I (and you most likely) retired in Florida is no longer applicable as they changed it in the early 2000s.


----------



## Flopper

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your information is a little confused.  The rates of employee contribution vary, but in my state my retirement was funded 100% by yours truly!  Those funds were to be invested and the amount of my retirement would be based on my contributions over my employment.  The problem was that these funds were hijacked by Democrats in the legislature and governors to pay the state's bills and the retirement funds were never fully funded as they should have been.
> 
> I "retired" by resigning and pulling my funds out lump sum.  Paying off my bills will net me about $700.00 per month in additional savings which is far in excess of what I would ever get from the state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting.  I retired from a Florida school district to go into other work.  I only had 15 years in the retirement system but did get a pension.
> 
> Here is the link I got the employer contributions to retirement from
> Just How Expensive and Generous Are Teacher Pension Plans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I retired from Florida and Kentucky.  The way I (and you most likely) retired in Florida is no longer applicable as they changed it in the early 2000s.
Click to expand...

I retired from Florida in the 1990's.  I understand they changed it some years later.  However, I still get an FRS pension check from them monthly based on years of service time some factor times my final salary.  I think they add a cost living increase every year since my check increases every July.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flopper said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your information is a little confused.  The rates of employee contribution vary, but in my state my retirement was funded 100% by yours truly!  Those funds were to be invested and the amount of my retirement would be based on my contributions over my employment.  The problem was that these funds were hijacked by Democrats in the legislature and governors to pay the state's bills and the retirement funds were never fully funded as they should have been.
> 
> I "retired" by resigning and pulling my funds out lump sum.  Paying off my bills will net me about $700.00 per month in additional savings which is far in excess of what I would ever get from the state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting.  I retired from a Florida school district to go into other work.  I only had 15 years in the retirement system but did get a pension.
> 
> Here is the link I got the employer contributions to retirement from
> Just How Expensive and Generous Are Teacher Pension Plans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I retired from Florida and Kentucky.  The way I (and you most likely) retired in Florida is no longer applicable as they changed it in the early 2000s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I retired from Florida in the 1990's.  I understand they changed it some years later.  However, I still get an FRS pension check from them monthly based on years of service time some factor times my final salary.  I think they add a cost living increase every year since my check increases every July.
Click to expand...


That is the same for me, but I retired (officially) in 2016, but my employment ended in 2006.  I stayed with the old option.  The new plan is a self funded 401K type of retirement where the state never really touches the money after you direct the investments.


----------



## Flopper

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This sounds nice on paper, but it is hard to imagine how you are not ending up like General Motors when you carry pension obligations year after year.  In fact, some sarcastic remarks from Wall Street call American auto makers investment houses that by the way also make cars.
> 
> The big difference is that I can choose not to by a GM car if I don't want to sponsor their retirements.  But I am not allowed to choose not to pay school district taxes.  Therefore whilst it is already odd in auto circles, it is totally unethical in schools to burden people with their pensions.
> 
> Most school budgets confirm that teacher salaries are much less than pension payouts, both coming from taxpayers directly.
> 
> And your description of school accountability is only academic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we all agree pensions are a horrible idea. Pay someone a days wage for a days work. Unions were brilliant to negotiate and win pensions for their union members but its unaffordable
> 
> But I also believe politicians shouldn’t get pensions after they retire either. Don’t take away teacher pensions and leave pensions for Paul Ryan and Nancy pelosi.
Click to expand...

Pensions today really don't make much sense since they seem to always require a number of years to be vested or you get nothing.  Young people today change jobs often.  A 403B is a much better alternative.  

Pension plans were designed to encourage employee loyalty.  That was in the days when employee loyalty was important.  Today employers have little interest in keeping their employees to retirement. Most businesses don't seem to last more than 5 or 10 years.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their  compensation.  So yes it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states district levies are capped.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get's additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, thee will be changes school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...
> 
> Private schools get all their kids tested out of a year of college. ...
Click to expand...



Obviously wrong, AGAIN. Some people clearly know nothing about public or private school, but love to shoot their mouths off regardless.


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your information is a little confused.  The rates of employee contribution vary, but in my state my retirement was funded 100% by yours truly!  Those funds were to be invested and the amount of my retirement would be based on my contributions over my employment.  The problem was that these funds were hijacked by Democrats in the legislature and governors to pay the state's bills and the retirement funds were never fully funded as they should have been.
> 
> I "retired" by resigning and pulling my funds out lump sum.  Paying off my bills will net me about $700.00 per month in additional savings which is far in excess of what I would ever get from the state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting.  I retired from a Florida school district to go into other work.  I only had 15 years in the retirement system but did get a pension.
> 
> Here is the link I got the employer contributions to retirement from
> Just How Expensive and Generous Are Teacher Pension Plans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I retired from Florida and Kentucky.  The way I (and you most likely) retired in Florida is no longer applicable as they changed it in the early 2000s.
Click to expand...

Please explain to us how my sister in law bought years? Do you know anything about this? I’ll have to ask her again but she can’t stand teaching and can’t wait to retire even though she’ll never find another job that will pay her $70k. So she paid money so she can retire early, with a pension. Something like 7 years early.

I don’t think teachers today have this option today. 

God I wish I would have went to ford right out of high school. Today I would have 31 years and I’d already be retired. Same if I was a teacher. Instead I’m 48 and I have to work till I’m 67. Teachers got it really fucking good.


----------



## sealybobo

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This sounds nice on paper, but it is hard to imagine how you are not ending up like General Motors when you carry pension obligations year after year.  In fact, some sarcastic remarks from Wall Street call American auto makers investment houses that by the way also make cars.
> 
> The big difference is that I can choose not to by a GM car if I don't want to sponsor their retirements.  But I am not allowed to choose not to pay school district taxes.  Therefore whilst it is already odd in auto circles, it is totally unethical in schools to burden people with their pensions.
> 
> Most school budgets confirm that teacher salaries are much less than pension payouts, both coming from taxpayers directly.
> 
> And your description of school accountability is only academic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we all agree pensions are a horrible idea. Pay someone a days wage for a days work. Unions were brilliant to negotiate and win pensions for their union members but its unaffordable
> 
> But I also believe politicians shouldn’t get pensions after they retire either. Don’t take away teacher pensions and leave pensions for Paul Ryan and Nancy pelosi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pensions today really don't make much sense since they seem to always require a number of years to be vested or you get nothing.  Young people today change jobs often.  A 403B is a much better alternative.
> 
> Pension plans were designed to encourage employee loyalty.  That was in the days when employee loyalty was important.  Today employers have little interest in keeping their employees to retirement. Most businesses don't seem to last more than 5 or 10 years.
Click to expand...

I don’t think corporations like ford or schools had a problem with loyalty at all. I think they are unionized and the unions fought and won those pensions. Notice most non union places don’t give a fuck about loyalty? So I don’t think ford or your school would lose sleep if you or I left.

My brother is in hr. He told me pensions were a way to avoid giving a raise today. So the company or school promised future money, ie pensions. Kicking the can down the road. And today they realize they made a bad deal. They even offered people buy outs. My dad took his ford buy out. He did the math and he would have to live to 90 to have the pension make sense so he took the buyout.


----------



## Andylusion

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ignored.   Bye Unkotare.  If you have nothing to say, then you are just a burden to the forum.  Nice knowing you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See what I mean? Are you just realizing this about him?
> 
> Are you a conservative? He agrees with conservatives on most issues he knows nothing about but when it comes to his public education unionized tenured collective bargaining job he’s a total liberal. This may be why you think he usually adds more. He doesn’t. Not ever. You just may not be the one he’s frustrating.
> 
> He also derails the thread by making me call him out. Then I get banned. I will put him on ignore too.
> 
> Same with that snowflake lady teacher who put me on ignore. She can’t stand her own hypocrisy. She cries because I hope she loses her liberal benefits and entitlements but she votes for right to work legislation so she should have to worry about her job just like the rest of us.
Click to expand...


I honestly had better discussions with him in the past.  He must have lost his mind or something.


----------



## Andylusion

Flopper said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only?  It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
Click to expand...



So I agree, different school systems have varying fiscal situations.

However, total compensation is on average, much higher than just the salary.   By most estimates, almost 33% higher.   A teacher earning $60K, is actually collecting $90K in compensation.

Public School Teachers Are Paid More Than Commonly Reported

But even then, I think sometimes the budgets are obscuring the costs.  For example, just for fun I punched up Columbus Public School budget report.  On the 3rd page of school funds, at the bottom of the report, I found a line item for $45 Million dollars, paid directly to the pension system.  That in itself wasn't too surprising, except that the funding wasn't from the general school funds, but rather a bond levy.   So the city sold bonds, to pay the pension system.   But bonds.... have to be paid back.

So essentially they used a credit card to pay off their student loan.

This of course isn't listed as a cost of school system, because it was "income" from the bonds.

But more than that, I see a number of expensive waste in the system.  This is the short list of obvious examples.

$2 Million for college credit programs.  Why?  Private schools don't do that, and the students take placement tests that allow them to skip classes they don't need.
$2 Million for retention of legal services.
$1 Million for formative assessment program.
$1.2 Million for college advisers.   Colleges already have full time college advisers on staff.  Let the students go to them.
$1.5 Million for YMCA Truancy Centers.
$4.7 Million for "reading adoption program".   I'm sorry... I was told I had to read books and give reports on them. I never had a special program to get me to adopt reading.

And I could go on to the 'at-risk' programs for students, which if they worked at all, then we should have the least risky students in the world.

Point is, there are many many programs that essentially proclaim to do what.... the school system should be doing anyway.

So I think his basic point is correct.  We are spending millions on millions, on things that are not salaries or on schools.


----------



## anotherlife

Flopper said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your information is a little confused.  The rates of employee contribution vary, but in my state my retirement was funded 100% by yours truly!  Those funds were to be invested and the amount of my retirement would be based on my contributions over my employment.  The problem was that these funds were hijacked by Democrats in the legislature and governors to pay the state's bills and the retirement funds were never fully funded as they should have been.
> 
> I "retired" by resigning and pulling my funds out lump sum.  Paying off my bills will net me about $700.00 per month in additional savings which is far in excess of what I would ever get from the state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting.  I retired from a Florida school district to go into other work.  I only had 15 years in the retirement system but did get a pension.
> 
> Here is the link I got the employer contributions to retirement from
> Just How Expensive and Generous Are Teacher Pension Plans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I retired from Florida and Kentucky.  The way I (and you most likely) retired in Florida is no longer applicable as they changed it in the early 2000s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I retired from Florida in the 1990's.  I understand they changed it some years later.  However, I still get an FRS pension check from them monthly based on years of service time some factor times my final salary.  I think they add a cost living increase every year since my check increases every July.
Click to expand...


Why would you get a cost of living increase?  Working people don't get a cost of living increase.  They get just outsourced.


----------



## anotherlife

Flopper said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This sounds nice on paper, but it is hard to imagine how you are not ending up like General Motors when you carry pension obligations year after year.  In fact, some sarcastic remarks from Wall Street call American auto makers investment houses that by the way also make cars.
> 
> The big difference is that I can choose not to by a GM car if I don't want to sponsor their retirements.  But I am not allowed to choose not to pay school district taxes.  Therefore whilst it is already odd in auto circles, it is totally unethical in schools to burden people with their pensions.
> 
> Most school budgets confirm that teacher salaries are much less than pension payouts, both coming from taxpayers directly.
> 
> And your description of school accountability is only academic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we all agree pensions are a horrible idea. Pay someone a days wage for a days work. Unions were brilliant to negotiate and win pensions for their union members but its unaffordable
> 
> But I also believe politicians shouldn’t get pensions after they retire either. Don’t take away teacher pensions and leave pensions for Paul Ryan and Nancy pelosi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pensions today really don't make much sense since they seem to always require a number of years to be vested or you get nothing.  Young people today change jobs often.  A 403B is a much better alternative.
> 
> Pension plans were designed to encourage employee loyalty.  That was in the days when employee loyalty was important.  Today employers have little interest in keeping their employees to retirement. Most businesses don't seem to last more than 5 or 10 years.
Click to expand...

What is 403B?  I thought it was 401k.


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Colleges DO look at GPA, among all other criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ignored.   Bye Unkotare.  If you have nothing to say, then you are just a burden to the forum.  Nice knowing you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See what I mean? Are you just realizing this about him?
> 
> Are you a conservative? He agrees with conservatives on most issues he knows nothing about but when it comes to his public education unionized tenured collective bargaining job he’s a total liberal. This may be why you think he usually adds more. He doesn’t. Not ever. You just may not be the one he’s frustrating.
> 
> He also derails the thread by making me call him out. Then I get banned. I will put him on ignore too.
> 
> Same with that snowflake lady teacher who put me on ignore. She can’t stand her own hypocrisy. She cries because I hope she loses her liberal benefits and entitlements but she votes for right to work legislation so she should have to worry about her job just like the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I honestly had better discussions with him in the past.  He must have lost his mind or something.
Click to expand...



I am consistent.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.
> 
> Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.
> 
> Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So I agree, different school systems have varying fiscal situations.
> 
> However, total compensation is on average, much higher than just the salary.   By most estimates, almost 33% higher.   A teacher earning $60K, is actually collecting $90K in compensation.
> 
> Public School Teachers Are Paid More Than Commonly Reported
> 
> But even then, I think sometimes the budgets are obscuring the costs.  For example, just for fun I punched up Columbus Public School budget report.  On the 3rd page of school funds, at the bottom of the report, I found a line item for $45 Million dollars, paid directly to the pension system.  That in itself wasn't too surprising, except that the funding wasn't from the general school funds, but rather a bond levy.   So the city sold bonds, to pay the pension system.   But bonds.... have to be paid back.
> 
> So essentially they used a credit card to pay off their student loan.
> 
> This of course isn't listed as a cost of school system, because it was "income" from the bonds.
> 
> But more than that, I see a number of expensive waste in the system.  This is the short list of obvious examples.
> 
> $2 Million for college credit programs.  Why?  Private schools don't do that, and the students take placement tests that allow them to skip classes they don't need.
> *$2 Million for retention of legal services.*
> $1 Million for formative assessment program.
> $1.2 Million for college advisers.   Colleges already have full time college advisers on staff.  Let the students go to them.
> $1.5 Million for YMCA Truancy Centers.
> $4.7 Million for "reading adoption program".   I'm sorry... I was told I had to read books and give reports on them. I never had a special program to get me to adopt reading.
> 
> And I could go on to the 'at-risk' programs for students, which if they worked at all, then we should have the least risky students in the world.
> 
> Point is, there are many many programs that essentially proclaim to do what.... the school system should be doing anyway.
> 
> So I think his basic point is correct.  We are spending millions on millions, on things that are not salaries or on schools.
Click to expand...



They need that money to protect themselves from being sued by idiots.

I find your logic lacking in everything you post.  $1 million is just 10 people using the compensation figures you chose to use.  My school district's budget in Florida was $6 billion!  You are arguing about chump change because you don't see the need.  It is there, whether you like it or not!


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So I agree, different school systems have varying fiscal situations.
> 
> However, total compensation is on average, much higher than just the salary.   By most estimates, almost 33% higher.   A teacher earning $60K, is actually collecting $90K in compensation.
> 
> Public School Teachers Are Paid More Than Commonly Reported
> 
> But even then, I think sometimes the budgets are obscuring the costs.  For example, just for fun I punched up Columbus Public School budget report.  On the 3rd page of school funds, at the bottom of the report, I found a line item for $45 Million dollars, paid directly to the pension system.  That in itself wasn't too surprising, except that the funding wasn't from the general school funds, but rather a bond levy.   So the city sold bonds, to pay the pension system.   But bonds.... have to be paid back.
> 
> So essentially they used a credit card to pay off their student loan.
> 
> This of course isn't listed as a cost of school system, because it was "income" from the bonds.
> 
> But more than that, I see a number of expensive waste in the system.  This is the short list of obvious examples.
> 
> $2 Million for college credit programs.  Why?  Private schools don't do that, and the students take placement tests that allow them to skip classes they don't need.
> *$2 Million for retention of legal services.*
> $1 Million for formative assessment program.
> $1.2 Million for college advisers.   Colleges already have full time college advisers on staff.  Let the students go to them.
> $1.5 Million for YMCA Truancy Centers.
> $4.7 Million for "reading adoption program".   I'm sorry... I was told I had to read books and give reports on them. I never had a special program to get me to adopt reading.
> 
> And I could go on to the 'at-risk' programs for students, which if they worked at all, then we should have the least risky students in the world.
> 
> Point is, there are many many programs that essentially proclaim to do what.... the school system should be doing anyway.
> 
> So I think his basic point is correct.  We are spending millions on millions, on things that are not salaries or on schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They need that money to protect themselves from being sued by idiots.
> 
> I find your logic lacking in everything you post.  $1 million is just 10 people using the compensation figures you chose to use.  My school district's budget in Florida was $6 billion!  You are arguing about chump change because you don't see the need.  It is there, whether you like it or not!
Click to expand...


You said you found my logic lacking..... but fail to give an example.

You said according to my numbers, that was only 10 people.   I'm assuming you meant my example that a teacher earning $60K is actually getting $90K in compensation.

But you missed the point.  That point was, that is insane.  Teachers are way over compensated in benefits.  Benefits shouldn't cost 33% more than the base salary.  In any private market system, you would almost never see that, unless the company was some insanely profitable business.

Additionally that $60K was an example.  An entry level teacher, starting off their first year, would likely only be paid $30K.   By that token $10 Million should cover the hiring of almost 20 to 25 new teachers.

And then lastly, $10 Million was only the few things that I pulled out of the budget.   This wasn't an exhausted University study of where school funding goes.   I just punched up the local school budget, and ran through a few line items.   I didn't do a research project on it.

Meaning what you see here, is simply what a college fail out loser poster on the internet found, with a few minutes of searching.

Without any doubt, any real in depth study of where all the money is going, would find hundreds of examples of money going to non-educational purposes.   

So I don't think my logic is lacking at all.   If you wish to convince me, feel free.  I'll consider anything you have to offer.

For example, you mention the law suits being the reason they need to spend $2 Million dollars on retaining legal help.

Ok... but then why do none of the private schools need such help?   Why are they able to educate students without millions in legal services?
The cynical side of me, says that the politicians have friends in legal profession, and found a great "deal" on legal services with the school district.

The practical side of me, says that simply being a government run system, makes them a target for law suits because people know the government will want to settle fast to avoid negative publicity at re-election time.

Regardless, this alone makes the case for moving towards a private school system over a public one.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So I agree, different school systems have varying fiscal situations.
> 
> However, total compensation is on average, much higher than just the salary.   By most estimates, almost 33% higher.   A teacher earning $60K, is actually collecting $90K in compensation.
> 
> Public School Teachers Are Paid More Than Commonly Reported
> 
> But even then, I think sometimes the budgets are obscuring the costs.  For example, just for fun I punched up Columbus Public School budget report.  On the 3rd page of school funds, at the bottom of the report, I found a line item for $45 Million dollars, paid directly to the pension system.  That in itself wasn't too surprising, except that the funding wasn't from the general school funds, but rather a bond levy.   So the city sold bonds, to pay the pension system.   But bonds.... have to be paid back.
> 
> So essentially they used a credit card to pay off their student loan.
> 
> This of course isn't listed as a cost of school system, because it was "income" from the bonds.
> 
> But more than that, I see a number of expensive waste in the system.  This is the short list of obvious examples.
> 
> $2 Million for college credit programs.  Why?  Private schools don't do that, and the students take placement tests that allow them to skip classes they don't need.
> *$2 Million for retention of legal services.*
> $1 Million for formative assessment program.
> $1.2 Million for college advisers.   Colleges already have full time college advisers on staff.  Let the students go to them.
> $1.5 Million for YMCA Truancy Centers.
> $4.7 Million for "reading adoption program".   I'm sorry... I was told I had to read books and give reports on them. I never had a special program to get me to adopt reading.
> 
> And I could go on to the 'at-risk' programs for students, which if they worked at all, then we should have the least risky students in the world.
> 
> Point is, there are many many programs that essentially proclaim to do what.... the school system should be doing anyway.
> 
> So I think his basic point is correct.  We are spending millions on millions, on things that are not salaries or on schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They need that money to protect themselves from being sued by idiots.
> 
> I find your logic lacking in everything you post.  $1 million is just 10 people using the compensation figures you chose to use.  My school district's budget in Florida was $6 billion!  You are arguing about chump change because you don't see the need.  It is there, whether you like it or not!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You said you found my logic lacking..... but fail to give an example.
> 
> You said according to my numbers, that was only 10 people.   I'm assuming you meant my example that a teacher earning $60K is actually getting $90K in compensation.
> 
> But you missed the point.  That point was, that is insane.  Teachers are way over compensated in benefits.  Benefits shouldn't cost 33% more than the base salary.  In any private market system, you would almost never see that, unless the company was some insanely profitable business.
> 
> Additionally that $60K was an example.  An entry level teacher, starting off their first year, would likely only be paid $30K.   By that token $10 Million should cover the hiring of almost 20 to 25 new teachers.
> 
> And then lastly, $10 Million was only the few things that I pulled out of the budget.   This wasn't an exhausted University study of where school funding goes.   I just punched up the local school budget, and ran through a few line items.   I didn't do a research project on it.
> 
> Meaning what you see here, is simply what a college fail out loser poster on the internet found, with a few minutes of searching.
> 
> Without any doubt, any real in depth study of where all the money is going, would find hundreds of examples of money going to non-educational purposes.
> 
> So I don't think my logic is lacking at all.   If you wish to convince me, feel free.  I'll consider anything you have to offer.
> 
> For example, you mention the law suits being the reason they need to spend $2 Million dollars on retaining legal help.
> 
> Ok... but then why do none of the private schools need such help?   Why are they able to educate students without millions in legal services?
> The cynical side of me, says that the politicians have friends in legal profession, and found a great "deal" on legal services with the school district.
> 
> The practical side of me, says that simply being a government run system, makes them a target for law suits because people know the government will want to settle fast to avoid negative publicity at re-election time.
> 
> Regardless, this alone makes the case for moving towards a private school system over a public one.
Click to expand...


You can't find where I said I found your logic lacking, but you quoted it!  What a dumbass!

In regards to private schools, look at the numbers.  Most private schools deal with a few thousand students at best.  My school district in Florida had 127,000 students.  Catch a clue!

That $30,000 teacher comes with benefits too!  Your numbers are just something you pulled out of your ass, because I worked 21 years and never made more than $55,000 in salary, and our benefits were less than $700 a month, and had to move to a "poor" state to get that because Florida is one of the worst states in the US as far as paying teachers.  I would really like to know what type of benefits you are talking about because I received a paycheck with all of that listed.  None of what you claimed is true in the vast majority of districts in this nation.


----------



## Andylusion

anotherlife said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.
> 
> By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This sounds nice on paper, but it is hard to imagine how you are not ending up like General Motors when you carry pension obligations year after year.  In fact, some sarcastic remarks from Wall Street call American auto makers investment houses that by the way also make cars.
> 
> The big difference is that I can choose not to by a GM car if I don't want to sponsor their retirements.  But I am not allowed to choose not to pay school district taxes.  Therefore whilst it is already odd in auto circles, it is totally unethical in schools to burden people with their pensions.
> 
> Most school budgets confirm that teacher salaries are much less than pension payouts, both coming from taxpayers directly.
> 
> And your description of school accountability is only academic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we all agree pensions are a horrible idea. Pay someone a days wage for a days work. Unions were brilliant to negotiate and win pensions for their union members but its unaffordable
> 
> But I also believe politicians shouldn’t get pensions after they retire either. Don’t take away teacher pensions and leave pensions for Paul Ryan and Nancy pelosi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pensions today really don't make much sense since they seem to always require a number of years to be vested or you get nothing.  Young people today change jobs often.  A 403B is a much better alternative.
> 
> Pension plans were designed to encourage employee loyalty.  That was in the days when employee loyalty was important.  Today employers have little interest in keeping their employees to retirement. Most businesses don't seem to last more than 5 or 10 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is 403B?  I thought it was 401k.
Click to expand...


403B is the 401K for government workers.   It's a little different, but essentially the same thing.


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So I agree, different school systems have varying fiscal situations.
> 
> However, total compensation is on average, much higher than just the salary.   By most estimates, almost 33% higher.   A teacher earning $60K, is actually collecting $90K in compensation.
> 
> Public School Teachers Are Paid More Than Commonly Reported
> 
> But even then, I think sometimes the budgets are obscuring the costs.  For example, just for fun I punched up Columbus Public School budget report.  On the 3rd page of school funds, at the bottom of the report, I found a line item for $45 Million dollars, paid directly to the pension system.  That in itself wasn't too surprising, except that the funding wasn't from the general school funds, but rather a bond levy.   So the city sold bonds, to pay the pension system.   But bonds.... have to be paid back.
> 
> So essentially they used a credit card to pay off their student loan.
> 
> This of course isn't listed as a cost of school system, because it was "income" from the bonds.
> 
> But more than that, I see a number of expensive waste in the system.  This is the short list of obvious examples.
> 
> $2 Million for college credit programs.  Why?  Private schools don't do that, and the students take placement tests that allow them to skip classes they don't need.
> *$2 Million for retention of legal services.*
> $1 Million for formative assessment program.
> $1.2 Million for college advisers.   Colleges already have full time college advisers on staff.  Let the students go to them.
> $1.5 Million for YMCA Truancy Centers.
> $4.7 Million for "reading adoption program".   I'm sorry... I was told I had to read books and give reports on them. I never had a special program to get me to adopt reading.
> 
> And I could go on to the 'at-risk' programs for students, which if they worked at all, then we should have the least risky students in the world.
> 
> Point is, there are many many programs that essentially proclaim to do what.... the school system should be doing anyway.
> 
> So I think his basic point is correct.  We are spending millions on millions, on things that are not salaries or on schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They need that money to protect themselves from being sued by idiots.
> 
> I find your logic lacking in everything you post.  $1 million is just 10 people using the compensation figures you chose to use.  My school district's budget in Florida was $6 billion!  You are arguing about chump change because you don't see the need.  It is there, whether you like it or not!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You said you found my logic lacking..... but fail to give an example.
> 
> You said according to my numbers, that was only 10 people.   I'm assuming you meant my example that a teacher earning $60K is actually getting $90K in compensation.
> 
> But you missed the point.  That point was, that is insane.  Teachers are way over compensated in benefits.  Benefits shouldn't cost 33% more than the base salary.  In any private market system, you would almost never see that, unless the company was some insanely profitable business.
> 
> Additionally that $60K was an example.  An entry level teacher, starting off their first year, would likely only be paid $30K.   By that token $10 Million should cover the hiring of almost 20 to 25 new teachers.
> 
> And then lastly, $10 Million was only the few things that I pulled out of the budget.   This wasn't an exhausted University study of where school funding goes.   I just punched up the local school budget, and ran through a few line items.   I didn't do a research project on it.
> 
> Meaning what you see here, is simply what a college fail out loser poster on the internet found, with a few minutes of searching.
> 
> Without any doubt, any real in depth study of where all the money is going, would find hundreds of examples of money going to non-educational purposes.
> 
> So I don't think my logic is lacking at all.   If you wish to convince me, feel free.  I'll consider anything you have to offer.
> 
> For example, you mention the law suits being the reason they need to spend $2 Million dollars on retaining legal help.
> 
> Ok... but then why do none of the private schools need such help?   Why are they able to educate students without millions in legal services?
> The cynical side of me, says that the politicians have friends in legal profession, and found a great "deal" on legal services with the school district.
> 
> The practical side of me, says that simply being a government run system, makes them a target for law suits because people know the government will want to settle fast to avoid negative publicity at re-election time.
> 
> Regardless, this alone makes the case for moving towards a private school system over a public one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can't find where I said I found your logic lacking, but you quoted it!  What a dumbass!
> 
> In regards to private schools, look at the numbers.  Most private schools deal with a few thousand students at best.  My school district in Florida had 127,000 students.  Catch a clue!
> 
> That $30,000 teacher comes with benefits too!  Your numbers are just something you pulled out of your ass, because I worked 21 years and never made more than $55,000 in salary, and our benefits were less than $700 a month, and had to move to a "poor" state to get that because Florida is one of the worst states in the US as far as paying teachers.  I would really like to know what type of benefits you are talking about because I received a paycheck with all of that listed.  None of what you claimed is true in the vast majority of districts in this nation.
Click to expand...

You said:
You can't find where I said I found your logic lacking, but you quoted it!  What a dumbass!​I said:
You said you found my logic lacking..... but fail to give an example.​
That didn't seem a difficult sentence to understand.

Private schools are dealing with only a few thousand......  because the public schools take most of the students, because due to taxes, parents either can't afford, or choose to not afford private schools.

I don't think that matters that much, because in the end, it's a similar number of students per teacher.   For example, my high school that I went to, has a 16 : 1 student teacher ratio.   Average class sizes are under 20.

Similarly, private schools typically have between 15 and 20 students, and yet they greatly out perform the school I went to.

Therefore, if the number of students an individual teacher has to deal with is similar, why are education outcomes so different?

Both of my parents were public school teachers.   My father made over $100K a year.  My mother was close behind.  Of course they were both exceptional.

Obviously, each state, and each local school district has their own pay scale and systems.   My parents have a net worth over a million dollars today, and aside from living a modest life, and being wise with their investments in stock, and property... the amount of money they earned was entirely from their public school teacher wages.

I can't answer for you.   And you getting upset is ridiculous.  Why are you mad?  About what?

Look....  there is a problem in our school system.   You can't possibly deny that.  Our system is the most expensive system in the world, and yet our students come out in the middle of the pack on average.  I had a guy that couldn't use a calculator by 11th grade.

So I'm not here to "attack teachers".  Or tell everyone who taught that they suck.  That isn't my point.

My only beef with teachers generally, and the teachers unions, is that I don't seem to hear any solutions.

Much like you on this thread.  I'm not 'against' you.  I want a solution.   Right now I see that private schools do the exact same thing as public schools, except they do them better, much better, for lower cost, a much lower cost.

And I'm saying... there must be something to this.   There has to be a reason.   Now if you have a solution, that does not involve having the most expensive educational system in the world, collecting even more money.... then lets hear it.

I will be more than happy to entertain any ideas you have.




 

Now, if we were spending as much as Croatia, Poland, or Spain per student... then I would be completely happy with the education outcomes, verses the cost.

But the fact some of those countries spend almost half as much as we do per student, and they are getting the same or better results... suggests we have problem.

Most schools place students in what are called remedial courses in math or English before they can move on to a full load of college-level, credit-bearing courses – a process that is a financial drain on not only students, but also colleges and taxpayers, costing up to an estimated $7 billion a year.
A lesson in a remedial English course at Baltimore City Community College, focused on teaching students how to combine sentences in a variety of ways to prepare them for writing in college-level classes. Photo: Sarah Butrymowicz

Data from 911 two- and four-year colleges revealed that 96 percent of schools enrolled students who required remediation in the 2014-15 academic year, the most comprehensive recent numbers. At least 209 schools placed more than half of incoming students in at least one remedial course.​
Most colleges enroll students who aren’t prepared for higher education

Blowing $7 billion, on educating people who have a high school diploma, on high school level work.

Something is wrong.  Period.    What is your solution?  I'll listen?


----------



## LA RAM FAN

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.



the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.


----------



## Andylusion

LA RAM FAN said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
Click to expand...


Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.

In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.


----------



## initforme

When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.
> 
> In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.
Click to expand...




Name five.


----------



## Unkotare

LA RAM FAN said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
Click to expand...



That’s just stupid. When 50,000 people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars a pop to watch me teach, and overpay for shirts with my name on them I’m quite certain my pay will increase astronomically. 

Pointless comparison


----------



## Andylusion

initforme said:


> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?



Where do you see me blaming teachers for this?

Again... my problem with teachers and teachers unions is that they defend the system that isn't working, and their typical default answer is "more money".  That's my problem with teachers and teachers unions.

If you read my previous post, my mother had an issue with a child exactly like you described, and that child made her life a living hell.  There was nothing she could do for such a student.  Nothing.   And not only was the student making her life miserable, but the kid was making it hard for other kids to learn anything, because my mother was dealing with her out of control behavior.

The solution was to have her removed.   The city actually changed the district lines, and had the section 8 housing she was from, moved to Columbus public, so her and the other students like her, were sent to their schools instead of the school my mother taught at.

The key difference between that system and a private school, is that the problem can be dealt with quicker, and with less damage.   But the idea you can somehow force kids to learn is crazy.   You can't force kids to learn.   The only thing you can do, is banish them.   For a private school, that means expulsion.  For a public school, it means sending them to the office every single day, and eventually redrawing the district lines. Which of course only works one you have a few students from a specific problem area.

The private school system is better, because the only one affected is the person refusing to learn.  In the public system, you send everyone from an particular area to another school district, when it is likely some kids from there were actually really good kids doing their best, but because the school doesn't want to get sued by bad parents, they can't just expel the bad kids.

The problem here is that left-wingers do not want a solution that has the most good for the most people.  Instead they want the magic "everyone succeeds" solution.  But there is no such solution.

In Finland, problem students are sent to a special school for losers.  That of course is my non-politically correct title, but it is a school for children who can't, or who refuse to keep up with their peers, or have 'behavior problems' (aka losers).   They are separated from quality students.

Why?  Because problem students are like infections.  If you don't cut the infection out, it spreads.  The only way to have "No child left behind" is to lower the standards so no kids have to learn.

And FYI.....  I lived this first hand.


----------



## initforme

I agree with you on alot.  However where I live teachers went 6 years in a wage freeze.  They recently finally got a little bump.  They don't ask for anything but a fair wage.  And since I served on the school board i saw the bargaining process work nicely.  Now what to do with highly disruptive kids when law says they must be included in the regular classroom?


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see me blaming teachers for this?
> 
> Again... my problem with teachers and teachers unions is that they defend the system that isn't working, and their typical default answer is "more money".  That's my problem with teachers and teachers unions.
> 
> If you read my previous post, my mother had an issue with a child exactly like you described, and that child made her life a living hell.  There was nothing she could do for such a student.  Nothing.   And not only was the student making her life miserable, but the kid was making it hard for other kids to learn anything, because my mother was dealing with her out of control behavior.
> 
> The solution was to have her removed.   The city actually changed the district lines, and had the section 8 housing she was from, moved to Columbus public, so her and the other students like her, were sent to their schools instead of the school my mother taught at.
> 
> The key difference between that system and a private school, is that the problem can be dealt with quicker, and with less damage.   But the idea you can somehow force kids to learn is crazy.   You can't force kids to learn.   The only thing you can do, is banish them.   For a private school, that means expulsion.  For a public school, it means sending them to the office every single day, and eventually redrawing the district lines. Which of course only works one you have a few students from a specific problem area.
> 
> The private school system is better, because the only one affected is the person refusing to learn.  In the public system, you send everyone from an particular area to another school district, when it is likely some kids from there were actually really good kids doing their best, but because the school doesn't want to get sued by bad parents, they can't just expel the bad kids.
> 
> The problem here is that left-wingers do not want a solution that has the most good for the most people.  Instead they want the magic "everyone succeeds" solution.  But there is no such solution.
> 
> In Finland, problem students are sent to a special school for losers.  That of course is my non-politically correct title, but it is a school for children who can't, or who refuse to keep up with their peers, or have 'behavior problems' (aka losers).   They are separated from quality students.
> 
> Why?  Because problem students are like infections.  If you don't cut the infection out, it spreads.  The only way to have "No child left behind" is to lower the standards so no kids have to learn.
> 
> And FYI.....  I lived this first hand.
Click to expand...




Good luck getting the compulsory education law in your state overturned.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I agree, different school systems have varying fiscal situations.
> 
> However, total compensation is on average, much higher than just the salary.   By most estimates, almost 33% higher.   A teacher earning $60K, is actually collecting $90K in compensation.
> 
> Public School Teachers Are Paid More Than Commonly Reported
> 
> But even then, I think sometimes the budgets are obscuring the costs.  For example, just for fun I punched up Columbus Public School budget report.  On the 3rd page of school funds, at the bottom of the report, I found a line item for $45 Million dollars, paid directly to the pension system.  That in itself wasn't too surprising, except that the funding wasn't from the general school funds, but rather a bond levy.   So the city sold bonds, to pay the pension system.   But bonds.... have to be paid back.
> 
> So essentially they used a credit card to pay off their student loan.
> 
> This of course isn't listed as a cost of school system, because it was "income" from the bonds.
> 
> But more than that, I see a number of expensive waste in the system.  This is the short list of obvious examples.
> 
> $2 Million for college credit programs.  Why?  Private schools don't do that, and the students take placement tests that allow them to skip classes they don't need.
> *$2 Million for retention of legal services.*
> $1 Million for formative assessment program.
> $1.2 Million for college advisers.   Colleges already have full time college advisers on staff.  Let the students go to them.
> $1.5 Million for YMCA Truancy Centers.
> $4.7 Million for "reading adoption program".   I'm sorry... I was told I had to read books and give reports on them. I never had a special program to get me to adopt reading.
> 
> And I could go on to the 'at-risk' programs for students, which if they worked at all, then we should have the least risky students in the world.
> 
> Point is, there are many many programs that essentially proclaim to do what.... the school system should be doing anyway.
> 
> So I think his basic point is correct.  We are spending millions on millions, on things that are not salaries or on schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They need that money to protect themselves from being sued by idiots.
> 
> I find your logic lacking in everything you post.  $1 million is just 10 people using the compensation figures you chose to use.  My school district's budget in Florida was $6 billion!  You are arguing about chump change because you don't see the need.  It is there, whether you like it or not!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You said you found my logic lacking..... but fail to give an example.
> 
> You said according to my numbers, that was only 10 people.   I'm assuming you meant my example that a teacher earning $60K is actually getting $90K in compensation.
> 
> But you missed the point.  That point was, that is insane.  Teachers are way over compensated in benefits.  Benefits shouldn't cost 33% more than the base salary.  In any private market system, you would almost never see that, unless the company was some insanely profitable business.
> 
> Additionally that $60K was an example.  An entry level teacher, starting off their first year, would likely only be paid $30K.   By that token $10 Million should cover the hiring of almost 20 to 25 new teachers.
> 
> And then lastly, $10 Million was only the few things that I pulled out of the budget.   This wasn't an exhausted University study of where school funding goes.   I just punched up the local school budget, and ran through a few line items.   I didn't do a research project on it.
> 
> Meaning what you see here, is simply what a college fail out loser poster on the internet found, with a few minutes of searching.
> 
> Without any doubt, any real in depth study of where all the money is going, would find hundreds of examples of money going to non-educational purposes.
> 
> So I don't think my logic is lacking at all.   If you wish to convince me, feel free.  I'll consider anything you have to offer.
> 
> For example, you mention the law suits being the reason they need to spend $2 Million dollars on retaining legal help.
> 
> Ok... but then why do none of the private schools need such help?   Why are they able to educate students without millions in legal services?
> The cynical side of me, says that the politicians have friends in legal profession, and found a great "deal" on legal services with the school district.
> 
> The practical side of me, says that simply being a government run system, makes them a target for law suits because people know the government will want to settle fast to avoid negative publicity at re-election time.
> 
> Regardless, this alone makes the case for moving towards a private school system over a public one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can't find where I said I found your logic lacking, but you quoted it!  What a dumbass!
> 
> In regards to private schools, look at the numbers.  Most private schools deal with a few thousand students at best.  My school district in Florida had 127,000 students.  Catch a clue!
> 
> That $30,000 teacher comes with benefits too!  Your numbers are just something you pulled out of your ass, because I worked 21 years and never made more than $55,000 in salary, and our benefits were less than $700 a month, and had to move to a "poor" state to get that because Florida is one of the worst states in the US as far as paying teachers.  I would really like to know what type of benefits you are talking about because I received a paycheck with all of that listed.  None of what you claimed is true in the vast majority of districts in this nation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You said:
> You can't find where I said I found your logic lacking, but you quoted it!  What a dumbass!​I said:
> You said you found my logic lacking..... but fail to give an example.​
> That didn't seem a difficult sentence to understand.
> 
> Private schools are dealing with only a few thousand......  because the public schools take most of the students, because due to taxes, parents either can't afford, or choose to not afford private schools.
> 
> I don't think that matters that much, because in the end, it's a similar number of students per teacher.   For example, my high school that I went to, has a 16 : 1 student teacher ratio.   Average class sizes are under 20.
> 
> Similarly, private schools typically have between 15 and 20 students, and yet they greatly out perform the school I went to.
> 
> Therefore, if the number of students an individual teacher has to deal with is similar, why are education outcomes so different?
> 
> Both of my parents were public school teachers.   My father made over $100K a year.  My mother was close behind.  Of course they were both exceptional.
> 
> Obviously, each state, and each local school district has their own pay scale and systems.   My parents have a net worth over a million dollars today, and aside from living a modest life, and being wise with their investments in stock, and property... the amount of money they earned was entirely from their public school teacher wages.
> 
> I can't answer for you.   And you getting upset is ridiculous.  Why are you mad?  About what?
> 
> Look....  there is a problem in our school system.   You can't possibly deny that.  Our system is the most expensive system in the world, and yet our students come out in the middle of the pack on average.  I had a guy that couldn't use a calculator by 11th grade.
> 
> So I'm not here to "attack teachers".  Or tell everyone who taught that they suck.  That isn't my point.
> 
> My only beef with teachers generally, and the teachers unions, is that I don't seem to hear any solutions.
> 
> Much like you on this thread.  I'm not 'against' you.  I want a solution.   Right now I see that private schools do the exact same thing as public schools, except they do them better, much better, for lower cost, a much lower cost.
> 
> And I'm saying... there must be something to this.   There has to be a reason.   Now if you have a solution, that does not involve having the most expensive educational system in the world, collecting even more money.... then lets hear it.
> 
> I will be more than happy to entertain any ideas you have.
> 
> View attachment 237078
> 
> Now, if we were spending as much as Croatia, Poland, or Spain per student... then I would be completely happy with the education outcomes, verses the cost.
> 
> But the fact some of those countries spend almost half as much as we do per student, and they are getting the same or better results... suggests we have problem.
> 
> Most schools place students in what are called remedial courses in math or English before they can move on to a full load of college-level, credit-bearing courses – a process that is a financial drain on not only students, but also colleges and taxpayers, costing up to an estimated $7 billion a year.
> A lesson in a remedial English course at Baltimore City Community College, focused on teaching students how to combine sentences in a variety of ways to prepare them for writing in college-level classes. Photo: Sarah Butrymowicz
> 
> Data from 911 two- and four-year colleges revealed that 96 percent of schools enrolled students who required remediation in the 2014-15 academic year, the most comprehensive recent numbers. At least 209 schools placed more than half of incoming students in at least one remedial course.​
> Most colleges enroll students who aren’t prepared for higher education
> 
> Blowing $7 billion, on educating people who have a high school diploma, on high school level work.
> 
> Something is wrong.  Period.    What is your solution?  I'll listen?
Click to expand...


My solution would be to educate assholes like you who never listen to the facts presented and prefer to go with the talking points of people who live to bash education.

I have seen everything you posted before and it all bullshit.  The facts are facts, but the reasoning behind those facts is where you lose your way.

The reason our education sucks today can be easily explained.  The causes are immigration of both the legal and illegal kind, as well as the inability of minorities to grasp the English language.

Those nice stats showing how the US ranks compared to the world are the worst kind of joke, and you fall for it because you do not understand the truth behind the numbers.

A few years ago, one of the schools that were tested was an inner city school in Baltimore with a population that was 100% both poor and black.  How well do you think they compared to students in Singapore that legally can be beaten by their teachers for poor academic performance and were from the upper class of society?

I once taught in an inner city middle school that was boys only.  Our class size was limited to 20 by law, but that didn't keep anyone from turning a blind eye when we had 22-24 in the class.  It also didn't help that our attendance zone included government subsidized housing that provided Catholic Charities the opportunity to house refugees from all over the world.Imagine what it was like teaching world history to a class of up to 24 students when approximately half did not speak the first word of English, nor read or write in ANY language.  we had one group that our district tried for two years to hire a translator for us to be able to communicate with the kids and parents.  Throw in students who basically hated each other.  I had black African students who could not stand to be in the same room as black American students because they felt American blacks were impure and culturally ignorant.  I had Cubans who hated Puerto Ricans, Puerto Ricans who hated Mexicans, and Mexicans that hated Cubans!  We had Muslims out the wazoo and a few Jews fleeing persecution in their home country sitting next to the children of their oppressors that had also moved to the US.

Guess how many White Anglo-Saxon Protestants were in my classroom on a daily basis?  One, and that was yours truly! Technically that is also not correct as I am one-fourth Native American.

I was not a teacher in that classroom but the Ringmaster of a three-ring circus for almost 3 years.  I could not stand going to work each day. The third year, about a month before school was out, my principal  screamed at my ass for about 15 minutes because I dared yell at a student to put down the desk he was threatening to drop on another student's head!  If I hadn't needed the money, I would have drop kicked that asshole and walked out!  I made it the few remaining weeks and when he told me my contract was not being renewed, I said, "Thank you!" for the best gift he could have given me.

Those are just some of the challenges that teachers face daily, but I know you have probably never seen or heard of that type of environment.  I taught my ass off for all the good it did.  I would wager that maybe 5 or less out of my 140 students per year will ever graduate from high school.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.
> 
> In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.
Click to expand...


Oh, you are such an ignorant piece of crap!

Check out who wins the state championships in football and basketball in any number of states.  Chances are they private schools who magically have scholarships for athletes attending public school to suddenly decide that private school was where their heart (and athletic skills) belonged!


----------



## Aponi

wallflower said:


> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see me blaming teachers for this?
> 
> Again... my problem with teachers and teachers unions is that they defend the system that isn't working, and their typical default answer is "more money".  That's my problem with teachers and teachers unions.
> 
> If you read my previous post, my mother had an issue with a child exactly like you described, and that child made her life a living hell.  There was nothing she could do for such a student.  Nothing.   And not only was the student making her life miserable, but the kid was making it hard for other kids to learn anything, because my mother was dealing with her out of control behavior.
> 
> The solution was to have her removed.   The city actually changed the district lines, and had the section 8 housing she was from, moved to Columbus public, so her and the other students like her, were sent to their schools instead of the school my mother taught at.
> 
> The key difference between that system and a private school, is that the problem can be dealt with quicker, and with less damage.   But the idea you can somehow force kids to learn is crazy.   You can't force kids to learn.   The only thing you can do, is banish them.   For a private school, that means expulsion.  For a public school, it means sending them to the office every single day, and eventually redrawing the district lines. Which of course only works one you have a few students from a specific problem area.
> 
> The private school system is better, because the only one affected is the person refusing to learn.  In the public system, you send everyone from an particular area to another school district, when it is likely some kids from there were actually really good kids doing their best, but because the school doesn't want to get sued by bad parents, they can't just expel the bad kids.
> 
> The problem here is that left-wingers do not want a solution that has the most good for the most people.  Instead they want the magic "everyone succeeds" solution.  But there is no such solution.
> 
> In Finland, problem students are sent to a special school for losers.  That of course is my non-politically correct title, but it is a school for children who can't, or who refuse to keep up with their peers, or have 'behavior problems' (aka losers).   They are separated from quality students.
> 
> Why?  Because problem students are like infections.  If you don't cut the infection out, it spreads.  The only way to have "No child left behind" is to lower the standards so no kids have to learn.
> 
> *And FYI.....  I lived this first hand*.
Click to expand...


Tell the truth.  When was the last time you sat through an entire class period in a public school.


----------



## Aponi

Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Aponi said:


> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why



Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!


----------



## JoeMoma

initforme said:


> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?


Often times private schools aren't better schools other than they receive far less troubled students and have a higher percentage of involved parents.  Some students in public high school are simply serving their time until graduation. D for diploma


----------



## EasyPeasy

JoeMoma said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?
> 
> 
> 
> Often times private schools aren't better schools other than they receive far less troubled students and have a higher percentage of involved parents.  Some students in public high school are *simply serving their time until graduation. D for diploma*
Click to expand...



That's what I did.... I had a lot of catching up to do when I started college.


----------



## JoeMoma

EasyPeasy said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?
> 
> 
> 
> Often times private schools aren't better schools other than they receive far less troubled students and have a higher percentage of involved parents.  Some students in public high school are *simply serving their time until graduation. D for diploma*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I did.... I had a lot of catching up to do when I started college.
Click to expand...

Was there anything the teachers in High school could have done to get you on track in high school, or was it simply a decision you had to make on your own as you matured?


----------



## Andylusion

initforme said:


> I agree with you on alot.  However where I live teachers went 6 years in a wage freeze.  They recently finally got a little bump.  They don't ask for anything but a fair wage.  And since I served on the school board i saw the bargaining process work nicely.  Now what to do with highly disruptive kids when law says they must be included in the regular classroom?



A fair wage is subjective.    I've worked the last 20 years, with a wage freeze.   I have never once gotten a raise from simply doing my job for 12 months.   When you agree to work for a given wage, that is the wage you agreed to work for.   The fact you exist for 12 months, does not somehow entitle you to a wage increase.

If you went to get your oil changed, and the guy doing the oil service to your car said "Hey, you need to pay me $50 more, because I've been doing this for years", would you just pay double the price for an oil change?  No?   Why not?   He's done this job for years, so you should pay him a huge amount of money for a simple oil change!

No, you'll go to the shop down the street that is doing the same oil change for a fraction of the cost.

So if that's how you operate as a customer, why would you think teachers should just automatically get raises for doing the job they signed up to do, for the wage they agreed to work for?

Every time my income has increased, it has been because I moved to a new job that was worth more money.

Now I'm not against teachers getting more money.   But don't tell me "They went 6 years in a wage freeze" as if merely working 12 months, means they deserve more money.  It doesn't.   You should get more, when you are worth more.  And just doing your job for 12 months, doesn't mean you are worth more.

As for highly disruptive kids....

Either change the law, or accept destroying the entire educational system, and ruining the lives of millions of students, for the sake of ideals.

Again... we're the only idiotic 1st world country to do this.  No other country destroys good students, for the sake of bad students.

And if we can't do that, then we should have universal vouchers, and let parents put their kids into whatever schools they can.  This will concentrate all the terrible kids, into the terrible schools, and all the good kids can go to good schools.


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.
> 
> In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, you are such an ignorant piece of crap!
> 
> Check out who wins the state championships in football and basketball in any number of states.  Chances are they private schools who magically have scholarships for athletes attending public school to suddenly decide that private school was where their heart (and athletic skills) belonged!
Click to expand...


I would love to see how many in the top NFL teams, came from private K-12 schools.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.
> 
> In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, you are such an ignorant piece of crap!
> 
> Check out who wins the state championships in football and basketball in any number of states.  Chances are they private schools who magically have scholarships for athletes attending public school to suddenly decide that private school was where their heart (and athletic skills) belonged!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would love to see how many in the top NFL teams, came from private K-12 schools.
Click to expand...


Not to be racist, but a lot of the white players do!

In the last 12 years, our class 6A state football champion has been a private school 9 times!  For class 5A, it was 5 out of the last 12 years and the last 4 in a row.

If you understand anything about statistics at all, you should see the disparity.  Probably not!


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see me blaming teachers for this?
> 
> Again... my problem with teachers and teachers unions is that they defend the system that isn't working, and their typical default answer is "more money".  That's my problem with teachers and teachers unions.
> 
> If you read my previous post, my mother had an issue with a child exactly like you described, and that child made her life a living hell.  There was nothing she could do for such a student.  Nothing.   And not only was the student making her life miserable, but the kid was making it hard for other kids to learn anything, because my mother was dealing with her out of control behavior.
> 
> The solution was to have her removed.   The city actually changed the district lines, and had the section 8 housing she was from, moved to Columbus public, so her and the other students like her, were sent to their schools instead of the school my mother taught at.
> 
> The key difference between that system and a private school, is that the problem can be dealt with quicker, and with less damage.   But the idea you can somehow force kids to learn is crazy.   You can't force kids to learn.   The only thing you can do, is banish them.   For a private school, that means expulsion.  For a public school, it means sending them to the office every single day, and eventually redrawing the district lines. Which of course only works one you have a few students from a specific problem area.
> 
> The private school system is better, because the only one affected is the person refusing to learn.  In the public system, you send everyone from an particular area to another school district, when it is likely some kids from there were actually really good kids doing their best, but because the school doesn't want to get sued by bad parents, they can't just expel the bad kids.
> 
> The problem here is that left-wingers do not want a solution that has the most good for the most people.  Instead they want the magic "everyone succeeds" solution.  But there is no such solution.
> 
> In Finland, problem students are sent to a special school for losers.  That of course is my non-politically correct title, but it is a school for children who can't, or who refuse to keep up with their peers, or have 'behavior problems' (aka losers).   They are separated from quality students.
> 
> Why?  Because problem students are like infections.  If you don't cut the infection out, it spreads.  The only way to have "No child left behind" is to lower the standards so no kids have to learn.
> 
> *And FYI.....  I lived this first hand*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell the truth.  When was the last time you sat through an entire class period in a public school.
Click to expand...


When I was in high school of course.  About 2 decades ago.   Are you saying that my experience can't possibly be true today?   Because I've heard from a number of people that teach in public schools, that situations are actually worse than back then.

You have no real argument do you?


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see me blaming teachers for this?
> 
> Again... my problem with teachers and teachers unions is that they defend the system that isn't working, and their typical default answer is "more money".  That's my problem with teachers and teachers unions.
> 
> If you read my previous post, my mother had an issue with a child exactly like you described, and that child made her life a living hell.  There was nothing she could do for such a student.  Nothing.   And not only was the student making her life miserable, but the kid was making it hard for other kids to learn anything, because my mother was dealing with her out of control behavior.
> 
> The solution was to have her removed.   The city actually changed the district lines, and had the section 8 housing she was from, moved to Columbus public, so her and the other students like her, were sent to their schools instead of the school my mother taught at.
> 
> The key difference between that system and a private school, is that the problem can be dealt with quicker, and with less damage.   But the idea you can somehow force kids to learn is crazy.   You can't force kids to learn.   The only thing you can do, is banish them.   For a private school, that means expulsion.  For a public school, it means sending them to the office every single day, and eventually redrawing the district lines. Which of course only works one you have a few students from a specific problem area.
> 
> The private school system is better, because the only one affected is the person refusing to learn.  In the public system, you send everyone from an particular area to another school district, when it is likely some kids from there were actually really good kids doing their best, but because the school doesn't want to get sued by bad parents, they can't just expel the bad kids.
> 
> The problem here is that left-wingers do not want a solution that has the most good for the most people.  Instead they want the magic "everyone succeeds" solution.  But there is no such solution.
> 
> In Finland, problem students are sent to a special school for losers.  That of course is my non-politically correct title, but it is a school for children who can't, or who refuse to keep up with their peers, or have 'behavior problems' (aka losers).   They are separated from quality students.
> 
> Why?  Because problem students are like infections.  If you don't cut the infection out, it spreads.  The only way to have "No child left behind" is to lower the standards so no kids have to learn.
> 
> *And FYI.....  I lived this first hand*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell the truth.  When was the last time you sat through an entire class period in a public school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When I was in high school of course.  About 2 decades ago.   ....
Click to expand...



But you do not hesitate to shoot  your mouth off as if you were an expert.


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.
> 
> In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, you are such an ignorant piece of crap!
> 
> Check out who wins the state championships in football and basketball in any number of states.  Chances are they private schools who magically have scholarships for athletes attending public school to suddenly decide that private school was where their heart (and athletic skills) belonged!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would love to see how many in the top NFL teams, came from private K-12 schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to be racist, but a lot of the white players do!
> 
> In the last 12 years, our class 6A state football champion has been a private school 9 times!  For class 5A, it was 5 out of the last 12 years and the last 4 in a row.
> 
> If you understand anything about statistics at all, you should see the disparity.  Probably not!
Click to expand...


Out of how many football players, what percentage all went to private K-12?

Regardless, I'm not even sure that makes a point.

Even if you could make the case, and maybe you can I don't know.... so what?   Does the school still have higher educational outcomes than public schools?  Yes.

So who cares if it offers a free tuition to students with athletic ability, as long as it still requires the same level of educational results?

Most people should be happy that a student can get a better education for being a better athlete.   Why not? 

I want as many people to do better, as is possible.   So if some guy that can run a football, can get a free education at a better school, and have better results.... more power to him.


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Aponi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
Click to expand...


If the way you have acted on this thread is an indication of how teachers act in public schools.... then I think I found part of the reason students come out dumb.


----------



## anotherlife

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem goes back to taxation.  Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax.  And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them.  And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property.  A vicious circle.  Any ideas how to break it?
> 
> 
> 
> Having a situation in which districts fire teachers to lower taxes is a sure route to poorer educational performance.
> 
> The more sources of income for a school district the better. Common sources are property taxes, sales taxes, federal funds, and fees. Changing allocation between property taxes and sales is difficult. Federal funds are for specific projects such free and reduce lunches but there are always funds  available for various new instructional programs.  Encouraging more federal grant writing might help a bit.  Then there are fees.  Depending on state laws, school districts can levy fees for all kinds of services which can raise quite a bit of money.  These fees can be student fee and fees charged to other districts or private schools for district services.  The right person as director of finance or superintendent of finance can make a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions instead of the school.  Therefore the taxation element needs to be eliminated.  That is the only part that is dominant because that is a guaranteed cash.  As long as schools can levy taxes, they don't have to perform.  If the tax based income is migrated to be fee based, then the teacher unions no longer have their hegemonic totalitarian power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what you mean when say 90 % of all those monies never reach the school, but only bypass the school and go to teacher pensions.  By far the greatest expense of schools is teacher salaries of which retirement is a part of their compensation.  So yes, it does reach the schools. Employer contributions to teacher retirement varies widely by state.  Texas is the lowest at about 4%.  Utah is highest at about 20%.
> 
> Schools can not raise taxes, school districts can and they are responsible to the tax payer.  In some states, district levies are capped by the state.
> 
> Also schools do have to perform.  Schools with low standardize test scores are penalized today.  This begins with a probationary period in which the school get additional help from the state or district.  If the school does not improve, there will be changes in school administration, student transfers, and even school closure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So I agree, different school systems have varying fiscal situations.
> 
> However, total compensation is on average, much higher than just the salary.   By most estimates, almost 33% higher.   A teacher earning $60K, is actually collecting $90K in compensation.
> 
> Public School Teachers Are Paid More Than Commonly Reported
> 
> But even then, I think sometimes the budgets are obscuring the costs.  For example, just for fun I punched up Columbus Public School budget report.  On the 3rd page of school funds, at the bottom of the report, I found a line item for $45 Million dollars, paid directly to the pension system.  That in itself wasn't too surprising, except that the funding wasn't from the general school funds, but rather a bond levy.   So the city sold bonds, to pay the pension system.   But bonds.... have to be paid back.
> 
> So essentially they used a credit card to pay off their student loan.
> 
> This of course isn't listed as a cost of school system, because it was "income" from the bonds.
> 
> But more than that, I see a number of expensive waste in the system.  This is the short list of obvious examples.
> 
> $2 Million for college credit programs.  Why?  Private schools don't do that, and the students take placement tests that allow them to skip classes they don't need.
> *$2 Million for retention of legal services.*
> $1 Million for formative assessment program.
> $1.2 Million for college advisers.   Colleges already have full time college advisers on staff.  Let the students go to them.
> $1.5 Million for YMCA Truancy Centers.
> $4.7 Million for "reading adoption program".   I'm sorry... I was told I had to read books and give reports on them. I never had a special program to get me to adopt reading.
> 
> And I could go on to the 'at-risk' programs for students, which if they worked at all, then we should have the least risky students in the world.
> 
> Point is, there are many many programs that essentially proclaim to do what.... the school system should be doing anyway.
> 
> So I think his basic point is correct.  We are spending millions on millions, on things that are not salaries or on schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They need that money to protect themselves from being sued by idiots.
> 
> I find your logic lacking in everything you post.  $1 million is just 10 people using the compensation figures you chose to use.  My school district's budget in Florida was $6 billion!  You are arguing about chump change because you don't see the need.  It is there, whether you like it or not!
Click to expand...


I have no knowledge about the actual numbers, only about the lack of affordability of it and about its organizational entitlement nature.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are one of you going to mention that alot of low performing schools have alot of kids with so much baggage they struggle to just to get by and their homelives are a wreck.  Add to that they see zero value in education.  Then you want them to score high on tests they will not prepare for because they dont put in any effort.  So you blame the teacher for this.  Until YOU fix the broken family nothing is going to change. Did you ever consider many kids dont want to learn and they know darn well nobody can force them too.  How are you going to fix this?  Ok send them to private schools.  Then watch those test score averages.  Then watch those private school parents go wild wanting troublesome students removed.  Whats the fix?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see me blaming teachers for this?
> 
> Again... my problem with teachers and teachers unions is that they defend the system that isn't working, and their typical default answer is "more money".  That's my problem with teachers and teachers unions.
> 
> If you read my previous post, my mother had an issue with a child exactly like you described, and that child made her life a living hell.  There was nothing she could do for such a student.  Nothing.   And not only was the student making her life miserable, but the kid was making it hard for other kids to learn anything, because my mother was dealing with her out of control behavior.
> 
> The solution was to have her removed.   The city actually changed the district lines, and had the section 8 housing she was from, moved to Columbus public, so her and the other students like her, were sent to their schools instead of the school my mother taught at.
> 
> The key difference between that system and a private school, is that the problem can be dealt with quicker, and with less damage.   But the idea you can somehow force kids to learn is crazy.   You can't force kids to learn.   The only thing you can do, is banish them.   For a private school, that means expulsion.  For a public school, it means sending them to the office every single day, and eventually redrawing the district lines. Which of course only works one you have a few students from a specific problem area.
> 
> The private school system is better, because the only one affected is the person refusing to learn.  In the public system, you send everyone from an particular area to another school district, when it is likely some kids from there were actually really good kids doing their best, but because the school doesn't want to get sued by bad parents, they can't just expel the bad kids.
> 
> The problem here is that left-wingers do not want a solution that has the most good for the most people.  Instead they want the magic "everyone succeeds" solution.  But there is no such solution.
> 
> In Finland, problem students are sent to a special school for losers.  That of course is my non-politically correct title, but it is a school for children who can't, or who refuse to keep up with their peers, or have 'behavior problems' (aka losers).   They are separated from quality students.
> 
> Why?  Because problem students are like infections.  If you don't cut the infection out, it spreads.  The only way to have "No child left behind" is to lower the standards so no kids have to learn.
> 
> *And FYI.....  I lived this first hand*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell the truth.  When was the last time you sat through an entire class period in a public school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When I was in high school of course.  About 2 decades ago.   Are you saying that my experience can't possibly be true today?   Because I've heard from a number of people that teach in public schools, that situations are actually worse than back then.
> 
> You have no real argument do you?
Click to expand...


Yes, because for those two decades education has been changing, so you have no frame of reference.  How I taught in 1996 was completely different than how I taught in 2018.  THAT is your problem.

You "heard" is meaning less because those people are probably  just like you and haven't been in a school in 20 years.

That is my argument for your uniformed opinions on the matter.

Clueless.


----------



## BS Filter




----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> the MAIN rerason they need a lot more pay is they got a much tougher job than these pampered spoiled rich brats in pro sports who get MILLIONS just for playing a little boys game.thats bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.
> 
> In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, you are such an ignorant piece of crap!
> 
> Check out who wins the state championships in football and basketball in any number of states.  Chances are they private schools who magically have scholarships for athletes attending public school to suddenly decide that private school was where their heart (and athletic skills) belonged!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would love to see how many in the top NFL teams, came from private K-12 schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to be racist, but a lot of the white players do!
> 
> In the last 12 years, our class 6A state football champion has been a private school 9 times!  For class 5A, it was 5 out of the last 12 years and the last 4 in a row.
> 
> If you understand anything about statistics at all, you should see the disparity.  Probably not!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> So who cares if it offers a free tuition to students with athletic ability, as long as it still requires the same level of educational results?
> 
> Most people should be happy that a student can get a better education for being a better athlete.   Why not?
> 
> I want as many people to do better, as is possible.   So if some guy that can run a football, can get a free education at a better school, and have better results.... more power to him.
Click to expand...




Athletics have opened the door to educational opportunities for a great many young people. One of the many positives associated with sports.


----------



## SweetSue92

BS Filter said:


>



I have no excuses for this. My profession are real dunderheads sometimes. Reason number 5,257 I do not belong to the union.


----------



## Manonthestreet




----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Manonthestreet said:


>



That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
Click to expand...





Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.


----------



## Unkotare

evenflow1969 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> teachers are not underpaid
> they have it pretty fucking good for part timers
> 
> 
> 
> ....you would have to be insane or a boy scout that wants to give it away to teach....
Click to expand...




 Is it insane to make choices based on factors other than just greed?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
Click to expand...


Yeah, right!

We had problems finding teachers for Spanish!


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, right!
> 
> ...
Click to expand...




Yes, right.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.
> 
> And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ignored.   Bye Unkotare.  If you have nothing to say, then you are just a burden to the forum.  Nice knowing you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See what I mean? Are you just realizing this about him?
> 
> Are you a conservative? He agrees with conservatives on most issues he knows nothing about but when it comes to his public education unionized tenured collective bargaining job he’s a total liberal. This may be why you think he usually adds more. He doesn’t. Not ever. You just may not be the one he’s frustrating.
> 
> He also derails the thread by making me call him out. Then I get banned. I will put him on ignore too.
> 
> Same with that snowflake lady teacher who put me on ignore. She can’t stand her own hypocrisy. She cries because I hope she loses her liberal benefits and entitlements but she votes for right to work legislation so she should have to worry about her job just like the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I honestly had better discussions with him in the past.  He must have lost his mind or something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am consistent.
Click to expand...

Consistently saying nothing amirite?


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.
> 
> In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you are such an ignorant piece of crap!
> 
> Check out who wins the state championships in football and basketball in any number of states.  Chances are they private schools who magically have scholarships for athletes attending public school to suddenly decide that private school was where their heart (and athletic skills) belonged!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would love to see how many in the top NFL teams, came from private K-12 schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to be racist, but a lot of the white players do!
> 
> In the last 12 years, our class 6A state football champion has been a private school 9 times!  For class 5A, it was 5 out of the last 12 years and the last 4 in a row.
> 
> If you understand anything about statistics at all, you should see the disparity.  Probably not!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> So who cares if it offers a free tuition to students with athletic ability, as long as it still requires the same level of educational results?
> 
> Most people should be happy that a student can get a better education for being a better athlete.   Why not?
> 
> I want as many people to do better, as is possible.   So if some guy that can run a football, can get a free education at a better school, and have better results.... more power to him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athletics have opened the door to educational opportunities for a great many young people. One of the many positives associated with sports.
Click to expand...

It did for me I have to agree.


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Aponi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
Click to expand...


Well.....   sometimes I think many teachers are to blame.  Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead.   We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas.  Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning.   There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living.  But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited.  There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding.    If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn.  So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
Click to expand...

Another cold day off of work?  I'm at work.  Not too cold for me.  What other thing will you find to do today to keep you away from the home?


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another cold day off of work?  ....
Click to expand...



No, douche bag.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another cold day off of work?  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
Click to expand...

P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  I already know it malaka.  And I'm not some irishmen with a greek/asian fetish.  I'm actually Greek.  So when you hear me bookaki'ing Greeks it's because I am a Greek.  Not an irishman who loves Asian men's feet.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another cold day off of work?  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
Click to expand...




No one asked, douche bag.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another cold day off of work?  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
Click to expand...

Do you think anyone has ever asked for one of your drive by troll posts?


----------



## mgh80

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aponi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well.....   sometimes I think many teachers are to blame.  Not all obviously.
> 
> So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead.   We were meeting in the tutoring room.
> 
> The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas.  Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.
> 
> What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning.   There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living.  But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.
> 
> The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited.  There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.
> 
> Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.
> 
> It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding.    If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.
> 
> If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.
> 
> But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn.  So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.
Click to expand...


Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.


----------



## Andylusion

mgh80 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aponi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well.....   sometimes I think many teachers are to blame.  Not all obviously.
> 
> So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead.   We were meeting in the tutoring room.
> 
> The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas.  Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.
> 
> What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning.   There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living.  But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.
> 
> The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited.  There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.
> 
> Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.
> 
> It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding.    If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.
> 
> If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.
> 
> But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn.  So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Few things here:
> 
> -Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?
> 
> -One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole
> 
> -Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers
> 
> -It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school
> 
> -Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers
> 
> -I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.
Click to expand...


*1.  Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching*

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

*2.  Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers*

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

*3.  It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.*

Ok?   So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

*4.  Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers*

Ok?  So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

*5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education...  then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

*The bottom line is.....*

We have a problem in the education system.   To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system.   When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing....  the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference?   If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job?   Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway?    But private schools can?    So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

*Again...  Plan A sucks, and doesn't work.  We need to move to a plan B.*   If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school.  I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference.   I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy.  They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

*My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, *it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools.   Schools do not more money.  We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth.  We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost.   And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution.   I'll listen to it.   Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aponi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well.....   sometimes I think many teachers are to blame.  Not all obviously.
> 
> So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead.   We were meeting in the tutoring room.
> 
> The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas.  Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.
> 
> What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning.   There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living.  But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.
> 
> The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited.  There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.
> 
> Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.
> 
> It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding.    If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.
> 
> If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.
> 
> But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn.  So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Few things here:
> 
> -Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?
> 
> -One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole
> 
> -Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers
> 
> -It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school
> 
> -Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers
> 
> -I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *1.  Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.
> 
> *2.  Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.
> 
> *3.  It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.*
> 
> Ok?   So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *4.  Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers*
> 
> Ok?  So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.
> 
> And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.
> 
> If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education...  then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.
> 
> *The bottom line is.....*
> 
> We have a problem in the education system.   To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system.   When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing....  the system is failing.
> 
> How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference?   If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job?   Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?
> 
> Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.
> 
> If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?
> 
> So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway?    But private schools can?    So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?
> 
> *Again...  Plan A sucks, and doesn't work.  We need to move to a plan B.*   If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.
> 
> Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.
> 
> So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school.  I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference.   I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.
> 
> What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.
> 
> Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy.  They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.
> 
> *My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, *it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools.   Schools do not more money.  We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth.  We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost.   And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.
> 
> If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution.   I'll listen to it.   Lets hear the fix.
> 
> I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.
Click to expand...


Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?

If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!


----------



## mgh80

Andylusion said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aponi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well.....   sometimes I think many teachers are to blame.  Not all obviously.
> 
> So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead.   We were meeting in the tutoring room.
> 
> The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas.  Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.
> 
> What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning.   There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living.  But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.
> 
> The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited.  There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.
> 
> Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.
> 
> It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding.    If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.
> 
> If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.
> 
> But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn.  So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Few things here:
> 
> -Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?
> 
> -One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole
> 
> -Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers
> 
> -It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school
> 
> -Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers
> 
> -I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *1.  Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.
> 
> *2.  Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.
> 
> *3.  It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.*
> 
> Ok?   So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *4.  Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers*
> 
> Ok?  So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.
> 
> And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.
> 
> If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education...  then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.
> 
> *The bottom line is.....*
> 
> We have a problem in the education system.   To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system.   When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing....  the system is failing.
> 
> How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference?   If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job?   Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?
> 
> Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.
> 
> If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?
> 
> So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway?    But private schools can?    So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?
> 
> *Again...  Plan A sucks, and doesn't work.  We need to move to a plan B.*   If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.
> 
> Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.
> 
> So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school.  I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference.   I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.
> 
> What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.
> 
> Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy.  They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.
> 
> *My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, *it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools.   Schools do not more money.  We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth.  We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost.   And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.
> 
> If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution.   I'll listen to it.   Lets hear the fix.
> 
> I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.
Click to expand...


I'm not making any excuses. I stand behind my performance. My students routinely beat my district, school, and state average on standardized testing (this includes private schools), in terms of gains.

Starting salary in my district is $38K/year. I know what I signed up for...but let's not pretending like teachers are living high on the hog. My district also pays more than most neighboring ones.

Teachers have zero say in any "fixes" that they could potentially offer the school system. Again, read.

I'm all for alternative schools to put students in situations where they can succeed. I stated such earlier in this thread, as well as mentioning that most teachers agree with this assessment. Read.

I never mentioned charter schools whatsoever, so that's completely irrelevant. The local charter school near me recently closed down due to lack of demand.

As for solutions:

Invest in alternative schools where students still learn their core classes (math, science, English, social studies), but also learn a trade for later in life. This will solve TONS of issues in the education system.

Invest more in teacher bonuses, to promote achievement for students.

Invest in classroom infrastructure (working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc).

PS: The Republican governor of my state has suggested doing all of the above.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well.....   sometimes I think many teachers are to blame.  Not all obviously.
> 
> So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead.   We were meeting in the tutoring room.
> 
> The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas.  Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.
> 
> What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning.   There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living.  But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.
> 
> The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited.  There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.
> 
> Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.
> 
> It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding.    If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.
> 
> If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.
> 
> But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn.  So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Few things here:
> 
> -Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?
> 
> -One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole
> 
> -Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers
> 
> -It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school
> 
> -Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers
> 
> -I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *1.  Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.
> 
> *2.  Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.
> 
> *3.  It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.*
> 
> Ok?   So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *4.  Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers*
> 
> Ok?  So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.
> 
> And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.
> 
> If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education...  then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.
> 
> *The bottom line is.....*
> 
> We have a problem in the education system.   To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system.   When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing....  the system is failing.
> 
> How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference?   If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job?   Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?
> 
> Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.
> 
> If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?
> 
> So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway?    But private schools can?    So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?
> 
> *Again...  Plan A sucks, and doesn't work.  We need to move to a plan B.*   If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.
> 
> Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.
> 
> So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school.  I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference.   I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.
> 
> What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.
> 
> Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy.  They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.
> 
> *My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, *it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools.   Schools do not more money.  We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth.  We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost.   And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.
> 
> If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution.   I'll listen to it.   Lets hear the fix.
> 
> I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?
> 
> If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you read?   If you can't, then stop posting.  If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said.   Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak.   Two ears, one mouth... for a reason.....  Shut up, and grow up.  Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.
Click to expand...


You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!


----------



## Andylusion

mgh80 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aponi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
> One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you ever blame teachers?  Are you one of those whining little assholes too?
> 
> You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well.....   sometimes I think many teachers are to blame.  Not all obviously.
> 
> So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead.   We were meeting in the tutoring room.
> 
> The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas.  Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.
> 
> What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning.   There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living.  But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.
> 
> The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited.  There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.
> 
> Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.
> 
> It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding.    If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.
> 
> If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.
> 
> But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn.  So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Few things here:
> 
> -Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?
> 
> -One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole
> 
> -Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers
> 
> -It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school
> 
> -Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers
> 
> -I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *1.  Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.
> 
> *2.  Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.
> 
> *3.  It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.*
> 
> Ok?   So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *4.  Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers*
> 
> Ok?  So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.
> 
> And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.
> 
> If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education...  then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.
> 
> *The bottom line is.....*
> 
> We have a problem in the education system.   To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system.   When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing....  the system is failing.
> 
> How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference?   If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job?   Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?
> 
> Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.
> 
> If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?
> 
> So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway?    But private schools can?    So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?
> 
> *Again...  Plan A sucks, and doesn't work.  We need to move to a plan B.*   If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.
> 
> Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.
> 
> So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school.  I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference.   I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.
> 
> What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.
> 
> Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy.  They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.
> 
> *My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, *it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools.   Schools do not more money.  We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth.  We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost.   And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.
> 
> If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution.   I'll listen to it.   Lets hear the fix.
> 
> I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not making any excuses. I stand behind my performance. My students routinely beat my district, school, and state average on standardized testing (this includes private schools), in terms of gains.
> 
> Starting salary in my district is $38K/year. I know what I signed up for...but let's not pretending like teachers are living high on the hog. My district also pays more than most neighboring ones.
> 
> Teachers have zero say in any "fixes" that they could potentially offer the school system. Again, read.
> 
> I'm all for alternative schools to put students in situations where they can succeed. I stated such earlier in this thread, as well as mentioning that most teachers agree with this assessment. Read.
> 
> I never mentioned charter schools whatsoever, so that's completely irrelevant. The local charter school near me recently closed down due to lack of demand.
> 
> As for solutions:
> 
> Invest in alternative schools where students still learn their core classes (math, science, English, social studies), but also learn a trade for later in life. This will solve TONS of issues in the education system.
> 
> Invest more in teacher bonuses, to promote achievement for students.
> 
> Invest in classroom infrastructure (working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc).
> 
> PS: The Republican governor of my state has suggested doing all of the above.
Click to expand...


Stop making this about you.  I don't know you.  You might be the best teacher that has ever lived.  Both my parents were public school teachers.  Both got awards for their teaching ability for decades.  Literally.   By father was in for 38 years, and was the schools elected teachers union representative, and I could tell you a few other things, but you would know who he was.  My mother was a teacher for 40 years, and then was rehired after retiring, for another 5 years.   Every time we go anywhere, they get stopped by former students.

They might have been the best teachers of their generation, I don't know.  They might have had the best students in their time, I don't know.

I'm looking at the system over all.  Not individual situation.   No matter how you look at our school system, as a whole.... the conclusions are inescapable.  We spend more than any other country in the world, on K-12 education, and we end up with mediocre results.  We have a national problem of colleges needing to put in place dozens of remedial classes, to get supposedly high school educated students, up to high school education.   Something is wrong.

Why are so many top students in remedial classes?
How do so many top students end up in remedial classes?
High schoolers do the hard work to reach their dream of attending college only to find themselves in remedial classes because high school left them unprepared.​
FAIL!  Something is wrong!!!

*Teachers have zero say in any "fixes" that they could potentially offer the school system.*

I don't buy that.  Because if I see teachers protesting education policy, then apparently they do have a "say".  Again, if you can protest wages, and protest charter school, which I have seen several times in the last 5 years.... then you are protesting a potential fix to the system.  If you can protest a solution, then you had better offer a solution.

If teachers can't offer a solution, then I don't want to see teachers protesting.

That is how life works.   If you can cause a problem by protesting, but can't provide a solution, then you yourself are a problem.

*I'm all for alternative schools to put students in situations where they can succeed. I stated such earlier in this thread, as well as mentioning that most teachers agree with this assessment. Read.*

I did read.   One internet poster, does not make national movement, anymore than my posts do.

You and one other, on an internet forum, do not make a majority.   When I look around at the outside world, I don't see people like you supporting people having options.

https://psmag.com/economics/why-cant-charter-schools-and-teachers-unions-be-friends

The real reason teachers' unions oppose charter schools

Here in Ohio, teachers have been entirely against charter schools.

Opinion: Charter schools are draining LA's public schools. That's why I'm on strike

In LA, teachers oppose charter schools.

Teachers' union considers hard line on charter schools

How many more examples do you need?
And if you are teachers, and you fund these unions, don't tell me "I don't support what the unions are doing" because you do.

So I'm not seeing actions that back up the words you wrote on here.

*Invest more in teacher bonuses, to promote achievement for students.*

Bonuses?   We already have the most expensive education system in the world.  You know that over in Finland, the starting pay is $34K to 35K?   So they are starting out at a lower wage than you are, and they supposedly have a better education system than we do.

Oh, and they are paying much higher taxes on that $34K.  Not school taxes.  Finland is spending less per student, than in the US.

The solution is not throwing more money at a system that doesn't work.   Any solution you bring that involves more money, I call BS.

*Invest in classroom infrastructure (working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc).*

Again, bull crap.   Private schools spend a ton less money per student, and achieve better results, and they have "working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc".

By the way, technology does not increase education.   That mythology.  You don't need a working printer, to teach long division.  I know, because I was taught such things, without a printer.

Finland did research on this, and found ZERO evidence that technology improved learning.  None.

During my Junior year, I was unfortunate enough to go to an inner city school for half a day.  It was a huge mistake.   I was sitting next to a guy who was in my grade, who asked me how to do a simple long division problem.  Something along the lines of 3 divide by 7.   I looked at him like he was insane.  Pulled out a pen and paper, and he stopped me "No, I mean on this calculator", and slid it over to me.

How can a guy get into 11th grade, and not know how to do long division, without a calculator, let alone with one?  You think giving this idiot a working printer and a laptop, is going to help?

You don't need a printer to teach this guy basic math.  You need a teacher that is going to start doing their job and teaching.

And if that kid was simply refusing to learn, he should have never been accepted into high school, and certainly no teachers should have allowed him to graduate from 10th grade. Somewhere, a teacher is at fault for him reaching the 11th grade without basic 7th grade math skills.

No, you don't need more money.  I'm sorry.  Any argument of "well invest in this!".... NO!    You don't need more money!    You need a system that works.  You need to change the policies, or completely rebuild the system from scratch, or we need to simply eliminate the system all together.

But don't give me this we just need more investment crap.  No we don't.   We have high schools, that are massive, with multi-million dollar football stadiums.   You don't need more money.

The school system needs to shape up, and start getting the bang for the buck, or they need to be eliminated.

I was look at some high schools in Finland.  One of the public high schools, was an office complex.  Cheap.  Cost effective.  Efficient.  

Didn't need a massive square mile campus.  Didn't need private sports stadium.  Why?  BECAUSE THEY ARE TEACHING....  the point of school is to educate, not all this other nonsense.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Few things here:
> 
> -Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?
> 
> -One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole
> 
> -Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers
> 
> -It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school
> 
> -Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers
> 
> -I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1.  Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.
> 
> *2.  Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.
> 
> *3.  It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.*
> 
> Ok?   So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *4.  Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers*
> 
> Ok?  So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.
> 
> And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.
> 
> If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education...  then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.
> 
> *The bottom line is.....*
> 
> We have a problem in the education system.   To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system.   When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing....  the system is failing.
> 
> How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference?   If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job?   Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?
> 
> Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.
> 
> If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?
> 
> So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway?    But private schools can?    So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?
> 
> *Again...  Plan A sucks, and doesn't work.  We need to move to a plan B.*   If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.
> 
> Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.
> 
> So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school.  I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference.   I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.
> 
> What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.
> 
> Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy.  They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.
> 
> *My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, *it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools.   Schools do not more money.  We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth.  We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost.   And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.
> 
> If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution.   I'll listen to it.   Lets hear the fix.
> 
> I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?
> 
> If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you read?   If you can't, then stop posting.  If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said.   Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak.   Two ears, one mouth... for a reason.....  Shut up, and grow up.  Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I get tired of dealing with fools who don't even read.  I enjoy an adult conversations.  However that involves talking to other adults, not blithering morons who don't even read what was written, and respond without thinking, and come across as a jerk that likes the sounds of his own voice.
Click to expand...


I read, and you just have your preconceived notions that are wrong or outdated by 30 years.


You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools.  Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.

Look at this:

"
*5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely."

You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.  Are you stupid or can you not read?

Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.

I have shown you repeatedly that the reason students struggle in school is they are poor.

Poor students make for poor students.

When Florida was testing all students and I worked there, in graduate school, I created a chart showing the school grades compared to the socioeconomic status of the average student in the district. It was an almost one for match for every school in the district, which was over 100 schools.  Schools graded "A" had higher incomes and "F" schools were the inner city schools with kids on welfare.  Are you shocked by that revelation?  Teachers have known it for years.

The answers to your questions are in these posts, but you are simply an asshole who refuses to accept the truth.

Now, find someone who teaches that honestly disagrees with the points I have made.


----------



## Andylusion

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> *1.  Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.
> 
> *2.  Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers*
> 
> And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.
> 
> *3.  It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.*
> 
> Ok?   So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *4.  Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers*
> 
> Ok?  So lets emulate private schools in public schools.
> 
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.
> 
> And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.
> 
> If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education...  then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.
> 
> *The bottom line is.....*
> 
> We have a problem in the education system.   To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system.   When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing....  the system is failing.
> 
> How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference?   If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job?   Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?
> 
> Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.
> 
> If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?
> 
> So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway?    But private schools can?    So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?
> 
> *Again...  Plan A sucks, and doesn't work.  We need to move to a plan B.*   If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.
> 
> Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.
> 
> So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school.  I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference.   I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.
> 
> What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.
> 
> Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy.  They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.
> 
> *My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, *it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools.   Schools do not more money.  We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth.  We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost.   And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.
> 
> If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution.   I'll listen to it.   Lets hear the fix.
> 
> I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?
> 
> If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you read?   If you can't, then stop posting.  If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said.   Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak.   Two ears, one mouth... for a reason.....  Shut up, and grow up.  Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I get tired of dealing with fools who don't even read.  I enjoy an adult conversations.  However that involves talking to other adults, not blithering morons who don't even read what was written, and respond without thinking, and come across as a jerk that likes the sounds of his own voice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read, and you just have your preconceived notions that are wrong or outdated by 30 years.
> 
> 
> You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools.  Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.
> 
> Look at this:
> 
> "
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely."
> 
> You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.  Are you stupid or can you not read?
> 
> Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.
> 
> I have shown you repeatedly that the reason students struggle in school is they are poor.
> 
> Poor students make for poor students.
> 
> When Florida was testing all students and I worked there, in graduate school, I created a chart showing the school grades compared to the socioeconomic status of the average student in the district. It was an almost one for match for every school in the district, which was over 100 schools.  Schools graded "A" had higher incomes and "F" schools were the inner city schools with kids on welfare.  Are you shocked by that revelation?  Teachers have known it for years.
> 
> The answers to your questions are in these posts, but you are simply an asshole who refuses to accept the truth.
> 
> Now, find someone who teaches that honestly disagrees with the points I have made.
Click to expand...


*Poor students make for poor students.*

Nah, bull crap.  I don't buy it.

I think people that make that claim are simply looking at numbers, and not cultural values.

A poor kid that has a big work ethic, and a drive to succeed, can do just as well as a rich kid.

The bottom line is not their families income bracket.   The bottom line is the work ethic their respective families instill in them.

I've seen poor kids that greatly outperformed myself, and I've seen rich kids that were lazy as snot.

Now typically, a family that is wealthy, is wealthy because they work hard.  That hard work ethic is often passed on to the kids.  But there is nothing that makes a poor person impossible to teach.

*And even then.........  That doesn't change the reality that there is a problem.*

I said in the prior post.....
During my Junior year, I was unfortunate enough to go to an inner city school for half a day. It was a huge mistake. I was sitting next to a guy who was in my grade, who asked me how to do a simple long division problem. Something along the lines of 3 divide by 7. I looked at him like he was insane. Pulled out a pen and paper, and he stopped me "No, I mean on this calculator", and slid it over to me.

And if that kid was simply refusing to learn, he should have never been accepted into high school, and certainly no teachers should have allowed him to graduate from 10th grade. Somewhere, a teacher is at fault for him reaching the 11th grade without basic 7th grade math skills.​A several teachers over several years, had to passed that kid.  How did someone without 7th grade math, get into 11th grade?   Because teachers did a lousy job, and passed a guy who was uneducated.

California: Straight-A high school student not ready for college

How are straight A students ending up in remedial classes in college?  Because the teaching system is broken, and needs replaced.   Bad teachers, bad policies, bad school system... I don't care what your excuses are... it should be impossible for a kid with straight As, to end up in remedial classes in college.

Your system.... SUCKS.   That's a fact.   So stop giving me your excuses.  Endless excuses for this failing system.

*You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.*

Denver: Teachers will start strike Monday, after negotiations end - CNN

Fail much?

*Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.*

Which is more important:   Having students get a better education?  Or being envious that others schools don't have the rules that hinder your school?

If what you said was true, then should not teachers be pushing to reduce the rules on public schools to match charter schools, so that all the students have a better education?   If your system is worse than another system, should you push that the other system be more like yours?  Or should you push for your system to be more like theirs?

If you are telling me the only reason teachers are against charter schools, is not because of the quality of education, but because of envy that charter schools have more freedom to provide better education.... than that makes teachers terrible self-centered trash that don't care about their students.

*You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools. Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.*

I don't see a difference.  Anything that gives students more options to escape a failing system, is good.   Teachers should be open and accepting of ANY option that allows students to get a better education.  

Saying you'll only allow or support, one specific type of school that you approve of, is exactly how we ended up with the problems we have.   Where we are right now in education as a society, is due to this "you can only get an education we approve of you getting" ideology.   We need to end that attitude.

I want people to have the freedom to choose whatever education they want, the only limitations being to meet the bare minimum reading, writing, and arithmetic.   Parents will naturally gravitate to the best education they can get, on their own, without some self-appointed arrogant overseers passing edicts on what is good.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?
> 
> If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you read?   If you can't, then stop posting.  If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said.   Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak.   Two ears, one mouth... for a reason.....  Shut up, and grow up.  Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I get tired of dealing with fools who don't even read.  I enjoy an adult conversations.  However that involves talking to other adults, not blithering morons who don't even read what was written, and respond without thinking, and come across as a jerk that likes the sounds of his own voice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read, and you just have your preconceived notions that are wrong or outdated by 30 years.
> 
> 
> You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools.  Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.
> 
> Look at this:
> 
> "
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely."
> 
> You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.  Are you stupid or can you not read?
> 
> Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.
> 
> I have shown you repeatedly that the reason students struggle in school is they are poor.
> 
> Poor students make for poor students.
> 
> When Florida was testing all students and I worked there, in graduate school, I created a chart showing the school grades compared to the socioeconomic status of the average student in the district. It was an almost one for match for every school in the district, which was over 100 schools.  Schools graded "A" had higher incomes and "F" schools were the inner city schools with kids on welfare.  Are you shocked by that revelation?  Teachers have known it for years.
> 
> The answers to your questions are in these posts, but you are simply an asshole who refuses to accept the truth.
> 
> Now, find someone who teaches that honestly disagrees with the points I have made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Poor students make for poor students.*
> 
> Nah, bull crap.  I don't buy it.
> 
> I think people that make that claim are simply looking at numbers, and not cultural values.
> 
> A poor kid that has a big work ethic, and a drive to succeed, can do just as well as a rich kid.
> 
> The bottom line is not their families income bracket.   The bottom line is the work ethic their respective families instill in them.
> 
> I've seen poor kids that greatly outperformed myself, and I've seen rich kids that were lazy as snot.
> 
> Now typically, a family that is wealthy, is wealthy because they work hard.  That hard work ethic is often passed on to the kids.  But there is nothing that makes a poor person impossible to teach.
> 
> *And even then.........  That doesn't change the reality that there is a problem.*
> 
> I said in the prior post.....
> During my Junior year, I was unfortunate enough to go to an inner city school for half a day. It was a huge mistake. I was sitting next to a guy who was in my grade, who asked me how to do a simple long division problem. Something along the lines of 3 divide by 7. I looked at him like he was insane. Pulled out a pen and paper, and he stopped me "No, I mean on this calculator", and slid it over to me.
> 
> And if that kid was simply refusing to learn, he should have never been accepted into high school, and certainly no teachers should have allowed him to graduate from 10th grade. Somewhere, a teacher is at fault for him reaching the 11th grade without basic 7th grade math skills.​A several teachers over several years, had to passed that kid.  How did someone without 7th grade math, get into 11th grade?   Because teachers did a lousy job, and passed a guy who was uneducated.
> 
> California: Straight-A high school student not ready for college
> 
> How are straight A students ending up in remedial classes in college?  Because the teaching system is broken, and needs replaced.   Bad teachers, bad policies, bad school system... I don't care what your excuses are... it should be impossible for a kid with straight As, to end up in remedial classes in college.
> 
> Your system.... SUCKS.   That's a fact.   So stop giving me your excuses.  Endless excuses for this failing system.
> 
> *You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.*
> 
> Denver: Teachers will start strike Monday, after negotiations end - CNN
> 
> Fail much?
> 
> *Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.*
> 
> Which is more important:   Having students get a better education?  Or being envious that others schools don't have the rules that hinder your school?
> 
> If what you said was true, then should not teachers be pushing to reduce the rules on public schools to match charter schools, so that all the students have a better education?   If your system is worse than another system, should you push that the other system be more like yours?  Or should you push for your system to be more like theirs?
> 
> If you are telling me the only reason teachers are against charter schools, is not because of the quality of education, but because of envy that charter schools have more freedom to provide better education.... than that makes teachers terrible self-centered trash that don't care about their students.
> 
> *You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools. Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.*
> 
> I don't see a difference.  Anything that gives students more options to escape a failing system, is good.   Teachers should be open and accepting of ANY option that allows students to get a better education.
> 
> Saying you'll only allow or support, one specific type of school that you approve of, is exactly how we ended up with the problems we have.   Where we are right now in education as a society, is due to this "you can only get an education we approve of you getting" ideology.   We need to end that attitude.
> 
> I want people to have the freedom to choose whatever education they want, the only limitations being to meet the bare minimum reading, writing, and arithmetic.   Parents will naturally gravitate to the best education they can get, on their own, without some self-appointed arrogant overseers passing edicts on what is good.
Click to expand...


Poor students make poor students.  You better buy it because it is true and there are reams of data that support that.  Of course there will be exceptions.  Most poor students are chickenshit.

You bitch about me saying I cannot read and yet you provide a link that proves ONE district strikes.  That doesn't dispute what I said one bit.  Teacher strikes are illegal in almost every school district in the country.  I have never worked in a district where it was legal because the federal government and both states forbid it.  Now, push the "I believe" button and stop being stupid.

You say you don't see the difference in alternative schools, charter schools and private schools. That is just further proof that you refuse to learn.  You were probably a chickenshit student because like in your example, you refuse to learn.

Your ignorance is 100% willful.


----------



## mgh80

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?
> 
> If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you read?   If you can't, then stop posting.  If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said.   Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak.   Two ears, one mouth... for a reason.....  Shut up, and grow up.  Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I get tired of dealing with fools who don't even read.  I enjoy an adult conversations.  However that involves talking to other adults, not blithering morons who don't even read what was written, and respond without thinking, and come across as a jerk that likes the sounds of his own voice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read, and you just have your preconceived notions that are wrong or outdated by 30 years.
> 
> 
> You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools.  Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.
> 
> Look at this:
> 
> "
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely."
> 
> You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.  Are you stupid or can you not read?
> 
> Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.
> 
> I have shown you repeatedly that the reason students struggle in school is they are poor.
> 
> Poor students make for poor students.
> 
> When Florida was testing all students and I worked there, in graduate school, I created a chart showing the school grades compared to the socioeconomic status of the average student in the district. It was an almost one for match for every school in the district, which was over 100 schools.  Schools graded "A" had higher incomes and "F" schools were the inner city schools with kids on welfare.  Are you shocked by that revelation?  Teachers have known it for years.
> 
> The answers to your questions are in these posts, but you are simply an asshole who refuses to accept the truth.
> 
> Now, find someone who teaches that honestly disagrees with the points I have made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Poor students make for poor students.*
> 
> Nah, bull crap.  I don't buy it.
> 
> I think people that make that claim are simply looking at numbers, and not cultural values.
> 
> A poor kid that has a big work ethic, and a drive to succeed, can do just as well as a rich kid.
> 
> The bottom line is not their families income bracket.   The bottom line is the work ethic their respective families instill in them.
> 
> I've seen poor kids that greatly outperformed myself, and I've seen rich kids that were lazy as snot.
> 
> Now typically, a family that is wealthy, is wealthy because they work hard.  That hard work ethic is often passed on to the kids.  But there is nothing that makes a poor person impossible to teach.
> 
> *And even then.........  That doesn't change the reality that there is a problem.*
> 
> I said in the prior post.....
> During my Junior year, I was unfortunate enough to go to an inner city school for half a day. It was a huge mistake. I was sitting next to a guy who was in my grade, who asked me how to do a simple long division problem. Something along the lines of 3 divide by 7. I looked at him like he was insane. Pulled out a pen and paper, and he stopped me "No, I mean on this calculator", and slid it over to me.
> 
> And if that kid was simply refusing to learn, he should have never been accepted into high school, and certainly no teachers should have allowed him to graduate from 10th grade. Somewhere, a teacher is at fault for him reaching the 11th grade without basic 7th grade math skills.​A several teachers over several years, had to passed that kid.  How did someone without 7th grade math, get into 11th grade?   Because teachers did a lousy job, and passed a guy who was uneducated.
> 
> California: Straight-A high school student not ready for college
> 
> How are straight A students ending up in remedial classes in college?  Because the teaching system is broken, and needs replaced.   Bad teachers, bad policies, bad school system... I don't care what your excuses are... it should be impossible for a kid with straight As, to end up in remedial classes in college.
> 
> Your system.... SUCKS.   That's a fact.   So stop giving me your excuses.  Endless excuses for this failing system.
> 
> *You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.*
> 
> Denver: Teachers will start strike Monday, after negotiations end - CNN
> 
> Fail much?
> 
> *Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.*
> 
> Which is more important:   Having students get a better education?  Or being envious that others schools don't have the rules that hinder your school?
> 
> If what you said was true, then should not teachers be pushing to reduce the rules on public schools to match charter schools, so that all the students have a better education?   If your system is worse than another system, should you push that the other system be more like yours?  Or should you push for your system to be more like theirs?
> 
> If you are telling me the only reason teachers are against charter schools, is not because of the quality of education, but because of envy that charter schools have more freedom to provide better education.... than that makes teachers terrible self-centered trash that don't care about their students.
> 
> *You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools. Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.*
> 
> I don't see a difference.  Anything that gives students more options to escape a failing system, is good.   Teachers should be open and accepting of ANY option that allows students to get a better education.
> 
> Saying you'll only allow or support, one specific type of school that you approve of, is exactly how we ended up with the problems we have.   Where we are right now in education as a society, is due to this "you can only get an education we approve of you getting" ideology.   We need to end that attitude.
> 
> I want people to have the freedom to choose whatever education they want, the only limitations being to meet the bare minimum reading, writing, and arithmetic.   Parents will naturally gravitate to the best education they can get, on their own, without some self-appointed arrogant overseers passing edicts on what is good.
Click to expand...


Who is more likely to get better instruction playing basketball...a child of a parent who's never played ball before, or Michael Jordan's kid? The answer is obvious.

Poor kids don't lack talent or the drive (in many cases), but they do typically lack parents at home who're educated. I'll share a story...my first year teacher I had the rosy glasses on, like much of your post. I had a student who claimed to be trying hard at school but couldn't succeed. I asked him what his biggest challenge was...well his goal was to be the first person in his family to graduate from high school. He told me his parents/family couldn't help him at home because they couldn't graduate...how could they help him? It was at that precise moment I realized exactly why poor students tend to do worse than their peers of higher socio-economic statuses.

I'm not a fan of charter schools and wouldn't send my kid to one...but I'm ok with them being an option. The charters schools near me are very hit or miss (most of them miss). I routinely have students form charter schools come to class and they're well behind their peers. Sometimes a few are ahead of the curve. The same can be said about formerly home schooled kids,...some of them do very well on tests, assessments, etc. most of them do about the same as their peers. Almost all of them suffer at group work and lack basic social skills (which in all fairness nowadays their peers lack many of them as well).

I don't care what your parents' experience. If you can provide your own to progress the conversation that's great, and is obviously the reason why I have been doing so. You don't have ethos when it comes to the topic at hand-which is fine-but don't like you do.

Honestly you don't know the difference between a curriculum and a set of standards, you don't know the difference between alternative and charter schools, you don't know about teacher strikes, you don't know about how the standards and curriculum are put into place, you don't know how students are disciplined, you don't even know the fundamental role of a teacher in the classroom (other than teaching the class). With all due respect...you just don't have a solid foundation of knowledge when it comes to the education system to hold a decent conversation. You just resort to adhominems and rely on the opinions of others, while providing zero evidence.

But wait your parents were "teachers" for years and you hear what people who've never been a classroom since they were 18 talk about education on the TV!

Here's a simple question I know you wont give a direction answer to:

You have two students. Student A has to work the overnight shift at McDonald's to help their parent pay the rent. Student B doesn't have to have a job in high school.

Which student has more time available for studies, Student A or Student B?

Honestly if somebody doesn't know the difference between a charter school and an alternative school they have no business discussing education as a whole. It's like discussing football with somebody who doesn't know the difference between offense and defense.


----------



## mgh80

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?
> 
> If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you read?   If you can't, then stop posting.  If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said.   Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak.   Two ears, one mouth... for a reason.....  Shut up, and grow up.  Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I get tired of dealing with fools who don't even read.  I enjoy an adult conversations.  However that involves talking to other adults, not blithering morons who don't even read what was written, and respond without thinking, and come across as a jerk that likes the sounds of his own voice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read, and you just have your preconceived notions that are wrong or outdated by 30 years.
> 
> 
> You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools.  Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.
> 
> Look at this:
> 
> "
> *5.  I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools*
> 
> You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely."
> 
> You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.  Are you stupid or can you not read?
> 
> Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.
> 
> I have shown you repeatedly that the reason students struggle in school is they are poor.
> 
> Poor students make for poor students.
> 
> When Florida was testing all students and I worked there, in graduate school, I created a chart showing the school grades compared to the socioeconomic status of the average student in the district. It was an almost one for match for every school in the district, which was over 100 schools.  Schools graded "A" had higher incomes and "F" schools were the inner city schools with kids on welfare.  Are you shocked by that revelation?  Teachers have known it for years.
> 
> The answers to your questions are in these posts, but you are simply an asshole who refuses to accept the truth.
> 
> Now, find someone who teaches that honestly disagrees with the points I have made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Poor students make for poor students.*
> 
> Nah, bull crap.  I don't buy it.
> 
> I think people that make that claim are simply looking at numbers, and not cultural values.
> 
> A poor kid that has a big work ethic, and a drive to succeed, can do just as well as a rich kid.
> 
> The bottom line is not their families income bracket.   The bottom line is the work ethic their respective families instill in them.
> 
> I've seen poor kids that greatly outperformed myself, and I've seen rich kids that were lazy as snot.
> 
> Now typically, a family that is wealthy, is wealthy because they work hard.  That hard work ethic is often passed on to the kids.  But there is nothing that makes a poor person impossible to teach.
> 
> *And even then.........  That doesn't change the reality that there is a problem.*
> 
> I said in the prior post.....
> During my Junior year, I was unfortunate enough to go to an inner city school for half a day. It was a huge mistake. I was sitting next to a guy who was in my grade, who asked me how to do a simple long division problem. Something along the lines of 3 divide by 7. I looked at him like he was insane. Pulled out a pen and paper, and he stopped me "No, I mean on this calculator", and slid it over to me.
> 
> And if that kid was simply refusing to learn, he should have never been accepted into high school, and certainly no teachers should have allowed him to graduate from 10th grade. Somewhere, a teacher is at fault for him reaching the 11th grade without basic 7th grade math skills.​A several teachers over several years, had to passed that kid.  How did someone without 7th grade math, get into 11th grade?   Because teachers did a lousy job, and passed a guy who was uneducated.
> 
> California: Straight-A high school student not ready for college
> 
> How are straight A students ending up in remedial classes in college?  Because the teaching system is broken, and needs replaced.   Bad teachers, bad policies, bad school system... I don't care what your excuses are... it should be impossible for a kid with straight As, to end up in remedial classes in college.
> 
> Your system.... SUCKS.   That's a fact.   So stop giving me your excuses.  Endless excuses for this failing system.
> 
> *You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.*
> 
> Denver: Teachers will start strike Monday, after negotiations end - CNN
> 
> Fail much?
> 
> *Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only.  They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.*
> 
> Which is more important:   Having students get a better education?  Or being envious that others schools don't have the rules that hinder your school?
> 
> If what you said was true, then should not teachers be pushing to reduce the rules on public schools to match charter schools, so that all the students have a better education?   If your system is worse than another system, should you push that the other system be more like yours?  Or should you push for your system to be more like theirs?
> 
> If you are telling me the only reason teachers are against charter schools, is not because of the quality of education, but because of envy that charter schools have more freedom to provide better education.... than that makes teachers terrible self-centered trash that don't care about their students.
> 
> *You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools. Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.*
> 
> I don't see a difference.  Anything that gives students more options to escape a failing system, is good.   Teachers should be open and accepting of ANY option that allows students to get a better education.
> 
> Saying you'll only allow or support, one specific type of school that you approve of, is exactly how we ended up with the problems we have.   Where we are right now in education as a society, is due to this "you can only get an education we approve of you getting" ideology.   We need to end that attitude.
> 
> I want people to have the freedom to choose whatever education they want, the only limitations being to meet the bare minimum reading, writing, and arithmetic.   Parents will naturally gravitate to the best education they can get, on their own, without some self-appointed arrogant overseers passing edicts on what is good.
Click to expand...


Charter schools (like I stated earlier) are a mixed bag. In my state schools are given a A-F rating (both traditional and charter schools. While charter schools are more likely to earn an A than a traditional school...they're also twice as likely to earn an F. Charter schools sound good-and some of them absolutely are-but they're not a magic pill or answer to the problems facing education.

At the end of the day though when you can cherry pick the students that attend your school, you can cherry pick the lower performing students out of your school.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
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> 
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> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!  Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago.  You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!
> 
> Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations.  I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did.  Considering my age, that shatters your meme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another cold day off of work?  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
Click to expand...

Should these teachers be fired for striking?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/denver-teachers-strike_us_5c6116cfe4b0eec79b254016

None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.

Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?


----------



## sealybobo

Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay

The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.  

For once I agree with teachers.


----------



## mgh80

sealybobo said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.
> 
> 
> 
> Another cold day off of work?  ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
Click to expand...




sealybobo said:


> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.



Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)

-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more
-Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
-Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
-Teachers aren't allowed to strike
-I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
-Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

mgh80 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another cold day off of work?  ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)
> 
> *-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more*
> -Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
> -Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
> -Teachers aren't allowed to strike
> -I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
> -Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government
Click to expand...


Having taught at numerous Title I schools, the statement about teachers getting paid more was not true anywhere in my two states where I worked.

The major issue in my state was the state legislature and the governor trying to change the retirement rules in the middle of the game.  Teachers protested, but it took the courts to rule that the state could not do what they wished and cheat the teachers out of their retirement. Had they gotten their way, about 30% of all the teachers statewide would likely have retired to maintain their benefits at the current level.


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)
> 
> *-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more*
> -Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
> -Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
> -Teachers aren't allowed to strike
> -I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
> -Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having taught at numerous Title I schools, the statement about teachers getting paid more was not true anywhere in my two states where I worked.
> 
> The major issue in my state was the state legislature and the governor trying to change the retirement rules in the middle of the game.  Teachers protested, but it took the courts to rule that the state could not do what they wished and cheat the teachers out of their retirement. Had they gotten their way, about 30% of all the teachers statewide would likely have retired to maintain their benefits at the current level.
Click to expand...

Same thing republicans do to private unions. Have the company go bankrupt to reneg on the pension.

Well soon they’ll tell teachers sorry we just don’t have the money.

Just wait for the next crash or trumps second term


----------



## initforme

If I had been a teacher during my working years I would have picketed on Oklahoma for sure.  No raise at all for how many years?  Teachers eligible for food stamps.  Shameful.  What is wrong with those people?  Require them to have a college education and then treat them like that.  Pathetic.


----------



## mgh80

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, douche bag.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)
> 
> *-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more*
> -Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
> -Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
> -Teachers aren't allowed to strike
> -I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
> -Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having taught at numerous Title I schools, the statement about teachers getting paid more was not true anywhere in my two states where I worked.
> 
> The major issue in my state was the state legislature and the governor trying to change the retirement rules in the middle of the game.  Teachers protested, but it took the courts to rule that the state could not do what they wished and cheat the teachers out of their retirement. Had they gotten their way, about 30% of all the teachers statewide would likely have retired to maintain their benefits at the current level.
Click to expand...


In my district in Florida you get paid 5% higher for working in a title 1 school (that's in extreme poverty). I know because I worked at one, I can't speak of any other district. We also had more resources at the school to help teachers/students (such as a dropout prevention coach).


----------



## hunarcy

whitehall said:


> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Say what? Pay teachers "per hour per child"? The union would cram a thousand kids into a classroom. Why not deduct a percentage from teachers salaries for every kid that drops out?
Click to expand...


Funny, it's teachers who work to keep class sizes down.  Administrators try to push class sizes up to avoid having to hire more teachers.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

mgh80 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)
> 
> *-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more*
> -Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
> -Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
> -Teachers aren't allowed to strike
> -I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
> -Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having taught at numerous Title I schools, the statement about teachers getting paid more was not true anywhere in my two states where I worked.
> 
> The major issue in my state was the state legislature and the governor trying to change the retirement rules in the middle of the game.  Teachers protested, but it took the courts to rule that the state could not do what they wished and cheat the teachers out of their retirement. Had they gotten their way, about 30% of all the teachers statewide would likely have retired to maintain their benefits at the current level.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In my district in Florida you get paid 5% higher for working in a title 1 school (that's in extreme poverty). I know because I worked at one, I can't speak of any other district. We also had more resources at the school to help teachers/students (such as a dropout prevention coach).
Click to expand...


Just out of curiosity, which district, if you don't mind saying?  I taught in Duval County for 10 years.


----------



## sealybobo

mgh80 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  You don't have to teach me Greek.  .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)
> 
> *-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more*
> -Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
> -Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
> -Teachers aren't allowed to strike
> -I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
> -Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having taught at numerous Title I schools, the statement about teachers getting paid more was not true anywhere in my two states where I worked.
> 
> The major issue in my state was the state legislature and the governor trying to change the retirement rules in the middle of the game.  Teachers protested, but it took the courts to rule that the state could not do what they wished and cheat the teachers out of their retirement. Had they gotten their way, about 30% of all the teachers statewide would likely have retired to maintain their benefits at the current level.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In my district in Florida you get paid 5% higher for working in a title 1 school (that's in extreme poverty). I know because I worked at one, I can't speak of any other district. We also had more resources at the school to help teachers/students (such as a dropout prevention coach).
Click to expand...

In metro Detroit the only women who will work in Detroit are black girls who grew up in Detroit. I think they make less than teachers in metro Detroit where tax payers pay more. The white schools are better funded. The poor schools are in deplorable conditions.

But if they are making $50k living in Detroit that’s good money. Houses in the hood are cheap.

I knew this beautiful black girl who worked in metro Detroit but lived in Detroit. She got her house for $35k or something cheap like that. To live in my neighborhood you need $150k


----------



## sealybobo

hunarcy said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wallflower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.
> 
> Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.
> 
> But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.
> 
> Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 _a week_.
> Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.
> 
> The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
> $60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.
> 
> 
> 
> So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Say what? Pay teachers "per hour per child"? The union would cram a thousand kids into a classroom. Why not deduct a percentage from teachers salaries for every kid that drops out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny, it's teachers who work to keep class sizes down.  Administrators try to push class sizes up to avoid having to hire more teachers.
Click to expand...

Well it is public schooling and for 3 decades we’ve been cutting taxes so people who have kids need to understand there may be 40 kids in the class.

I went to eastern Michigan university and we had 100 student classes. So what? Learn how to study so you can pass tests. That’s the secret. 

But can you pass accounting, ,math, English, a foreign language, science

It should be on the kid and parents. In college teachers failed me if I wasn’t getting it. I had to pay to take accounting twice. It sucked. 

There should have been another option for me. I’m a great salesperson who makes almost 6 figures. I had to get a college degree. There should be another option for salespeople. We don’t need a 4 year degree.


----------



## mgh80

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one asked, douche bag.
> 
> 
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)
> 
> *-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more*
> -Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
> -Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
> -Teachers aren't allowed to strike
> -I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
> -Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having taught at numerous Title I schools, the statement about teachers getting paid more was not true anywhere in my two states where I worked.
> 
> The major issue in my state was the state legislature and the governor trying to change the retirement rules in the middle of the game.  Teachers protested, but it took the courts to rule that the state could not do what they wished and cheat the teachers out of their retirement. Had they gotten their way, about 30% of all the teachers statewide would likely have retired to maintain their benefits at the current level.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In my district in Florida you get paid 5% higher for working in a title 1 school (that's in extreme poverty). I know because I worked at one, I can't speak of any other district. We also had more resources at the school to help teachers/students (such as a dropout prevention coach).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, which district, if you don't mind saying?  I taught in Duval County for 10 years.
Click to expand...


PMed

edit: attempted to PM, but it wouldn't let me.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

mgh80 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should these teachers be fired for striking?
> Denver Teachers Go On Strike For The First Time In 25 Years | HuffPost
> 
> None of us get to collectively bargain or extort our bosses for a raise.  They'd fire all of us and replace us if we dared even try.
> 
> Would you picket with your fellow teachers?  Have you ever went on strike?  Has your union ever come close?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unkotare works in a high poverty school so he would be screwed by this
> The union pushed for lower bonuses for high-poverty and high-priority schools to free up more money for overall teacher pay
> 
> The collective.  Rather than pay Unkotare more for going to the poor school, they want to lower his bonus so the collective can all get a litlte raise.
> 
> For once I agree with teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's the truth many don't talk about (at least in my district: title 1 schools get more funding than non-title 1 schools. Sure the student demographic is of a lower socio-economic status and therefore has a higher poverty rate...but a few things here (all of this is based on my experience in my district, I can't speak for others)
> 
> *-Teachers at title 1 schools get paid more*
> -Teacher still don't want to work at (many of) those schools
> -Title 1 schools have more resources to teachers available and more funds pumped into the school
> -Teachers aren't allowed to strike
> -I wouldn't strike even if I was allowed to, that would hurt my students
> -Teachers in my district didn't get the raises that were written into their contracts and protested (not during work hours). They didn't want additional raises-they wanted what was promised to them from the government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having taught at numerous Title I schools, the statement about teachers getting paid more was not true anywhere in my two states where I worked.
> 
> The major issue in my state was the state legislature and the governor trying to change the retirement rules in the middle of the game.  Teachers protested, but it took the courts to rule that the state could not do what they wished and cheat the teachers out of their retirement. Had they gotten their way, about 30% of all the teachers statewide would likely have retired to maintain their benefits at the current level.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In my district in Florida you get paid 5% higher for working in a title 1 school (that's in extreme poverty). I know because I worked at one, I can't speak of any other district. We also had more resources at the school to help teachers/students (such as a dropout prevention coach).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, which district, if you don't mind saying?  I taught in Duval County for 10 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> PMed
> 
> edit: attempted to PM, but it wouldn't let me.
Click to expand...


Hmmmmmm......


----------

