# Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls



## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them. 

The audacity of it is shocking. 

Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.


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## The Great Goose (Nov 6, 2016)

Well now you know what dealing with Semites is like. Suck it up!


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

not in arabic
predates islam

If their heritage is hebrew, why don't they convert to Jewish?


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
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> The audacity of it is shocking.
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> Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.


basically all things jewish and christian are considered holy to muslims


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> basically all things jewish and christian are considered holy to muslims



Possibly true.  But recognition of the value or holiness of someone else's cultural heritage does not make it your cultural heritage nor does it give you leave to appropriate it.


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


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hey im an athiest i think we'd be better off if all these things were burned, but if two religions both believe one thing is holy to them who decides who gets it?


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## Billy_Kinetta (Nov 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> Shusha said:
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Actual modern day Muslims, perhaps.  But they are not currently running things within the faith.


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> hey im an athiest i think we'd be better off if all these things were burned, but if two religions both believe one thing is holy to them who decides who gets it?



You think cultural and archeological artifacts should be BURNED?  WTF?


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


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only if they have religous value yes lol


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> but if two religions both believe one thing is holy to them who decides who gets it?



The people whose culture it belongs to!  That is rather the point of UNESCO -- to protect the world's cultural heritage.  Jewish writings belong to the Jewish people.


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


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Just who ever was first? does that seem fair? would you accept that rule for your own religious artifacts?


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Israel is not giving them up, so it does not matter


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Jordan has the copper scrolls.  See if they will give them to the palestinians instead


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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So if cultural artifacts from the past are in any way religious they should be destroyed?  I'm beyond words.


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


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yes but again im an atheist and you people are killing eachother over nothing


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## The Great Goose (Nov 6, 2016)

aris2chat said:


> not in arabic
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> If there heritage is hebrew, why don't they convert to Jewish?


So it was in Yiddish?


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


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The Dead Sea Scrolls are part of everyone's heritage, not only Israelis.


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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sure but so is van gogh's or michealangelos artwork, and if millions of people were murdering eachother and cutting eachothers heads off in the desert, over who was the better painter, or who gets to "keep" one of van goghs paintings in their country you probably would burn it yourself wouldn't you?


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## Pete7469 (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


> You think cultural and archeological artifacts should be BURNED?  WTF?



Bed wetting libturds are happy to destroy history. 

What struck me as funny is that you accused Purple Turd of "thinking".

It's clinically impossible to be a libturd and think. Always keep that in mind. You're not corresponding with rational adults when talking to libturds. These are drones.


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

scrolls are there for anyone to see in Jerusalem or online
The Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library

Palestinians would destroy them to wipe the jews off the map of history


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Jordan destroyed hundreds of torah scrolls and thousands of text and desecrated some thirty+ synagogues before '67


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## Hossfly (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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I think Eloy should tell some Hindus and Buddhists that the Dead Sea Scrolls are part of their heritage.

Sacred Texts: Buddhist Sacred Texts: The Sutras


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## Hossfly (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
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> The audacity of it is shocking.
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> Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.



Did the ancient "Palestinians" use  phylacteries?

Sacred Texts: Buddhist Sacred Texts: The Sutras


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Shusha said:
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careful, Pakistani Muslims will be after them next


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## Hossfly (Nov 6, 2016)

aris2chat said:


> scrolls are there for anyone to see in Jerusalem or online
> The Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library
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> Palestinians would destroy them to wipe the jews off the map of history


The Dead Sea Scrolls were in Charlotte a few years ago. They cause goose bumps.


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> Just who ever was first? does that seem fair? would you accept that rule for your own religious artifacts?



Cultural artifacts belong to the culture who created them.  Jewish writings belong to the Jewish people.  How is this even a question?


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


> The Dead Sea Scrolls are part of everyone's heritage, not only Israelis.



Are you kidding me?  No.  Just no.  They are not.  The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of religious and cultural writings written in Hebrew (and Aramaic and Greek) from BEFORE the invention of either Christianity or Islam.  You can't just usurp someone else's cultural heritage and say it belongs to you.  No.  

You can certainly say that you value that cultural heritage.  You can certainly say you adopted some aspects of that cultural heritage. You can say you believe in certain common ideologies.   But you can not just take it.  The cultural heritage belongs to the culture which created it.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


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You are mistaken; cultural artifacts are often so important that they are recognized as belonging to all people and are held in trust as a world heritage. To make the false claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong only to Israelis is breathtakingly ignorant.


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## Hossfly (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Just when did the Palestinians possess the Scrolls and why did they hide them in the first place?


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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They travel the world on tours from time to time, but they belong to Israel.  Anyone can go visit them.


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


> You are mistaken; cultural artifacts are often so important that they are recognized as belonging to all people and are held in trust as a world heritage. To make the false claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong only to Israelis is breathtakingly ignorant.



The protection of the world's cultural heritage is indeed a shared interest of all humanity.  

However, the culture in question must be respected as the guardians of their own cultural heritage and knowledge and artifacts. Their self-determination in the interpretation, understanding and transmission of that heritage to future generations must be honored.  The ownership and custodianship of a culture's heritage is collective, permanent and inalienable.  

To make ALL heritage world heritage is to pour everything into the same soup pot and wonder why all the flavour has been lost.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

Hossfly said:


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The Scrolls were discovered in the modern Occupied West Bank of Palestine. It is for this reason that the Palestians have a claim on them returning to the area in which they were found. It is like the Greeks claiming the Parthenon Marbles which are in England. Why the Dead Sea Scrolls which date from the last three centuries BCE and the first century of the Common Era, were hidden is not known.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

aris2chat said:


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The ownership belongs to humanity and the Palestinians contest that Israel owns them.


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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land that was jewish, written by jews for the jewish religion.

There is no land of palestine yet

Mandate was british, before that it was ottoman.

Let them try and take the copper scrolls if they want instead

Israel is not giving up the dead sea scrolls


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Tough

It is no up for a vote.  Israel has them and they will keep them


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Hey, if they want the scroll so bad, perhaps they will buy them from Israel.

Price.............all the land free of palestinians

Israel will hand them over in a flour sack, as dust, and see if the palestinians can put them back together.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

aris2chat said:


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No, the Scrolls were discovered when the Occupied West Bank was part of Jordan. The British Mandate did not extend to the Dead Sea.


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


> The ownership belongs to humanity and the Palestinians contest that Israel owns them.



The cultural artifacts of the Jewish people, written in Hebrew (the language of the Jewish people) and giving the narrative of the religious faith, histories, myths, legends of Jewish people are the cultural heritage of the Jewish people and as such must be under the guardianship and caretakership of the Jewish people.  

Surely you don't pretend to suggest that the guardianship of Egyptian artifacts, say the Amarna Letters, should be under the caretakership of the Japanese, do you?


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## Hossfly (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Were the Arabs around then when the scrolls were written in Hebrew and then hidden by Jews?  What was the West Bank called in ancient times, Eloy?  It certainly wasn't called the West Bank.


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## Hossfly (Nov 6, 2016)

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In St. Catherine;s Church on Mount Sinai are icons of the 2nd to the 4th century AD.  Does this mean that the icons belong to humanity and not to St. Catherine's Church?   Maybe  you should get word to the Arabs that they should claim this too.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


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You are mistaken again; the Dead Sea Scrolls are still being studied and scholars have no definitive explanation of their origin. It was believed that they were the writings of a Jewish sect since some of the texts were from the Bible but there were other texts too. Naturally, modern Christian scholars see them as important for shedding light on their religion which has its roots in Judaism. So, to claim that they are the artifacts exclusively of modern Judaism is wrong as Christians have an equal claim on their significance for their culture and religion.


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Dead sea were discovered in spring of '47, before Jordan occupied the WB illegally.
Jordan could not care for them and they were nearly destroyed.  Israel build a museum for their preservation and display.
Maybe they should have been left in Beirut instead.
No one else wanted to come up with the money to buy them except a jewish group.

Palestinians certainly did not seem to care about them back then

Now they think they have some claim?

They will stay with Israel, in the jewish state where they belong


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

Hossfly said:


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The Semitic people are the precursors of modern Arabs, so Yes, in a sense. They were written not only in Hebrew but also in Aramaic (the language spoken by Jesus), and Greek. You are right, the area then was not called the West Bank but the Greek Seleucid Empire.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

Hossfly said:


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To my shame, I do not know about the icons in St. Catherine's Church but it sounds like they are indeed world heritage artifacts.


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## Shusha (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


> You are mistaken again; the Dead Sea Scrolls are still being studied and scholars have no definitive explanation of their origin...



No definitive explanation of their origin?  You are kidding, right?  They are Hebrew writings (the language of the Jewish people). They narrate the history, myths, legends and religious doctrines of the Jewish people.  They were written and used during a time and in a place of Jewish cultural precedence and control.

Are you going to argue that there is no definitive origin of Ebers Papyrus?  Are you going to argue that manuscripts written in Egyptian hieroglyph or hieratic can't be definitively explained to be Egyptian in origin?  Are you going to argue that Egyptian artifacts are actually Roman artifacts because Rome once conquered most of Egypt?  

Please.  You are being absolutely ridiculous.  




(Not to say that they aren't of interest, possibly, to Christian historians.  But interest and cultural heritage are not interchangeable terms).


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## aris2chat (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Nag Hammadi Library belongs to the coptic church not to egypt.  They changed hands several times before they found their home.

Dead sea scrolls have their home in Jerusalem.

The icons will stay in Alexandria, in the eastern orthodox church.


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## Eloy (Nov 7, 2016)

aris2chat said:


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Matters were in a state of flux about this time and you are right that the Scrolls were found before Jordan occupied the West Bank but the United Nations had proposed that this area should be Arab. I suppose, strictly speaking, we should say the land of Palestine was under United Nations control. It should be noted that the Kingdom of Jordan still claims possession of the Scrolls.



aris2chat said:


> Jordan could not care for them and they were nearly destroyed.  Israel build a museum for their preservation and display.
> Maybe they should have been left in Beirut instead.
> No one else wanted to come up with the money to buy them except a jewish group.
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There is a good case for them remaining in the Israeli museum where they are relatively safe for the moment. They would be safer in the Vatican State where they would be studied by linguists and theologians too.


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## aris2chat (Nov 7, 2016)

Eloy said:


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They can and have been studied in Jerusalem.  Anyone can go there or go online


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## Shusha (Nov 7, 2016)

Eloy said:


> There is a good case for them remaining in the Israeli museum where they are relatively safe for the moment. They would be safer in the Vatican State where they would be studied by linguists and theologians too.



Hey.  Here's an idea.  Why don't they stay in Israel, the Jewish State, where they can be studied by, you know, linguists and theologians who are experts in Jewish linguistics and theology and history. 

Why would they be less safe in Israel?


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## Eloy (Nov 7, 2016)

Shusha said:


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The Scrolls are still being studied but for years this was not done properly. I am not an expert on the Scrolls and I have read that they seem to be from a Jewish sect and not necessarily part of Jewish orthodoxy. Remember, Aramaic is one of the languages used as Jesus used it to become a Jewish sect which was to develop into the Christian religion. Also, Greek is the language of some documents and there are even texts which are not part of orthodox Judaism. They are every bit as much Christian as Jewish.


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## aris2chat (Nov 7, 2016)

Eloy said:


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and christians can study them in Jerusalem if they want


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## Eloy (Nov 7, 2016)

aris2chat said:


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Let's face it; for safety and security, Jerusalem is not on top of the list of cities these days.


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## aris2chat (Nov 7, 2016)

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If anyone cares about the scrolls..............better not destroy Jerusalem


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## Eloy (Nov 7, 2016)

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If so-called "human shields" don't work, archaeological scrolls won't.


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## aris2chat (Nov 7, 2016)

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Lots of steel, concrete and bullet proof glass is a start.


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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 Proving that they have no actual religious heritage other than their fake prophet who commanded them to " KILL THE JEWS " and " KILL THE UNBELIEVERS "


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## peabody (Nov 7, 2016)

The Israeli people are going to start paying reparations to the Palestinians. 1/3 of their salary for the next ten years. This bill is in the Israeli parliament and is predicted to pass.


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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 The one that came first of course, which would be Judaism, unless the scrolls were written during the time of islam. If they pre date 625 C.E. then they are not of any islamic cultural or religious significance.


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 Nothing "so called" about them they are a fact and even hamas leaders admit that human shields are used to protect illegal weapons and terrorists


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 Followed by deep pits full of poisonous reptiles and insects protected with chain guns


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

peabody said:


> The Israeli people are going to start paying reparations to the Palestinians. 1/3 of their salary for the next ten years. This bill is in the Israeli parliament and is predicted to pass.








 And pigs will fly


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

aris2chat said:


> Israel is not giving them up, so it does not matter








 The Vatican tried this some years ago and failed, so what chance does islam have


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


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 NO as Yiddish is a modern construct, they were in Hebrew


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 Written by Jews, in Judea, in Hebrew and placed in jars in a cave on the banks of the dead sea. Tell me again how they are part of America's heritage, or Russias, China's, Brazil's etc ?


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 NO I would say I bought it and under all laws it makes it mine


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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Who does the White House belong to as a cultural artifact, the Colorado river, Death Valley etc all cultural and all American. The only possible claim would be they were found by an arab boy out tending his families goats, the counter to this is King Tutankhamen's tomb was found by British archeologists so it is theirs .


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 7, 2016)

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islamic culture includes all jewish and christian historical culture. The same way that christian culture includes jewish culture, the old testament is a jewish book. besides there is only 15 million jews compared to 1.5 billion muslims


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## The Great Goose (Nov 7, 2016)

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Woo hoo! and by extension, Australia's


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

Shusha said:


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 Hand them to the palestinians and they would be destroyed by the first extremist that came along, leaving the world a lesser place. Look at the destruction of cultural artifacts by the arab muslims calling themselves palestinians over the last few decades, all because they could not get their own way. Time for UNESCO to take all artifacts out of islamic control and protect them for future generations to come. Far too many artifacts have been destroyed by islam deliberately and willfully that noting is safe or sacred with them anymore.


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 7, 2016)

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why would they destroy something sacred to them? your not making sense you seem to be more on an islamophobic rant, rather than discussing the topic


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## theliq (Nov 7, 2016)

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O where was UNESCO when the Americans Raped and Stole all of Iraqs protected Cultural Heritage,and these Treasures were on Sale two weeks after the invasion in New York by Zionist Art Dealers......answer me that Shusha considering you are so caring of peoples writings and artifacts.


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 When they were found palestine did not exist so has no claim on Jewish cultural and religious artifacts. The dead sea scrolls are Jewish no matter what you claim, and they belong with the Jews who will allow the world access to them. If the palestinians are so hell bent on getting the dead sea scrolls let them chase the vatican that stole some of them


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 And the last people who could be called humanity are the palestinians, after all they target children for death as part of their culture


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 7, 2016)

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Palestinians arent even human too you?


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 And how does demographics have any bearing on the subject, the muslims have tried and failed to use demographics in the past.   Nice of you to admit that the Catholics and the muslims stole the Jewish culture and god because they did not have any of their own. The dead sea scrolls are Jewish in origin, were found in ancient Israel that was granted to the diaspora in 1922 as their national home. It was not Jordans land as they invaded and took it by force


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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Read it again.   They have no humanity, not a shred as shown by their use of children as targets and human shields


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## PurpleOwl (Nov 7, 2016)

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are muslims human beings to you?


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


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 Only if you follow the islamonazi criteria that their god gave them the world, and they had to mass murder everyone else to own it


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 Lifted from Wikipedia that as you know is edited by the likes of monte, and he posted a manipulated video on you tube.

When did Christianity start and who were the scholars and scribes at Qumran who wrote the scrolls found there. Not one could be a Christian as it was not invented for at least 200 years after the last scroll was written. Ask the vatican why they refuse to allow scientists from all religions access to their dead sea scrolls, you might find it is because it tells the truth about Catholisism.


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 Also called Judea and Samaria if you look, but that is irrelevant as the people that wrote them were Jews, for the Jewish people to read. Not an arab in sight was there, so what give's them the right to claim the artifacts for islam. They are no different to the many Torah scrolls already destroyed by the arab muslims over the last 1400 years, why should they treat these ones any different ?


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## Penelope (Nov 7, 2016)

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While the majority of Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, the collection also includes many Aramaic and Greek texts, as well as some Arabic texts and a small number of Latin fragments.

The Dead Sea Scrolls - Languages and Scripts


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## Penelope (Nov 7, 2016)

Shusha said:


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Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel. From the earliest of times the Canaanites and their offshoot Hebrews intermarried, all semites, including the Palestinians and Christians who live in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank today, and even those in Jordan and many in Syria. All over the ME.  All Semites.


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

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 WRONG as Christianity as we know it did not develop until the 4C, at the same time as the Roman Empire collapsed.The dead sea scrolls have no significance to Christianity or islam, no matter how much you squirm and manipulate facts. You see they predate both religions by at least 400 years


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

Penelope said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...







And this makes them islamic     HOW ?????


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 And you have been proven wrong on this how many times, typical islamonazi idiocy to repeat the claims that have been proven false hoping that the links fail


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

Eloy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 Safer there than in ramallah or bagdad


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...







 Why have they started to destroy the al aqsa mosque, it is supposed to be the 3rd most important building in islam. Then we have Josephs tomb that is attacked regularly, to say nothing of the other sites in the west bank that predate islam by 2000 years


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

theliq said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > PurpleOwl said:
> ...








 LINKS   as your word is as worthless as an Irish 3 punt note printed in Pant-y-Gurdl


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## fanger (Nov 7, 2016)

Jordan  Alleges that the Dead Sea Scrolls were stolen from the Palestine Archaeological Museum (now the Rockefeller Museum) operated by Jordan from 1966 until the Six-Day Warwhen advancing Israeli forces took control of the Museum, and that therefore they fall under the rules of the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.[164] Jordan regularly demands their return and petitions third-party countries that host the scrolls to return them to Jordan instead of to Israel, claiming they have legal documents that prove Jordanian ownership of the scrolls.
Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia


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## Penelope (Nov 7, 2016)

fanger said:


> Jordan  Alleges that the Dead Sea Scrolls were stolen from the Palestine Archaeological Museum (now the Rockefeller Museum) operated by Jordan from 1966 until the Six-Day Warwhen advancing Israeli forces took control of the Museum, and that therefore they fall under the rules of the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.[164] Jordan regularly demands their return and petitions third-party countries that host the scrolls to return them to Jordan instead of to Israel, claiming they have legal documents that prove Jordanian ownership of the scrolls.
> Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia



Interesting. Thanks.


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## Hossfly (Nov 7, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


 
The Arab's weren't around  then.  They were still on the Saudi Peninsula until they left to conquer the surrounding countries around the seventh century A.D.   The scrolls were found in the vicinity of the Hellenistic period  Jewish settlement at _Khirbet Qumran_ in the eastern Judaean Desert. now known as the West Bank.  Why not tell your friends that they can visit the scrolls at the museum in Israel?


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## RoccoR (Nov 7, 2016)

et al,

I'm just a bit confused here.



Penelope said:


> Interesting. Thanks.


*REMEMBER:* _Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls_

*(COMMENT)*

Normally, I wouldn't care, one way or the other.  But just out of curiosity, --- how do the Arab Palestinians come to the conclusion that the Dead Sea Scroll are part of thier heritage?

*Languages and Scripts*

*Dead Sea Scrolls written in Hebrew* include biblical texts, non-biblical literary works, and documents such as deeds and letters. While some documents contain specific dates, most are dated on the basis of paleographical analysis (the study of the development of scripts over time), and sometimes with carbon-14 dating. These texts illustrate the vitality of the *Hebrew language in ancient Judea*.

*Most of these Hebrew Scrolls are written in the standard "square" ("Jewish") script,* very similar to today’s Modern Hebrew, while several are written in paleo-Hebrew, an ancient script from the First Temple period. Interestingly, some Scrolls written in the standard script use the ancient script specifically for writing the divine name. *Additionally, some Scrolls are written in cryptic scripts (Cryptic A, B, and C), which use unusual signs to represent Hebrew alphabet letters.*

*Scholars commonly speak of "Qumran Hebrew" as a literary Hebrew dialect.* Some Scrolls from the Qumran caves have certain *distinctive features, such as the use of "plene" spelling (using the letters א, ה, ו, י to indicate vowels),* which scholars have identified as "Qumran Scribal Practice." The documents from the refuge caves of the Judean Desert are *written in a less formal Hebrew*.​
Now is must be remembered that the Dead Sea Scrolls were NOT written exclusively in a Hebrew dialect. There are quite a few written in Aramaic and Greek texts; as well as a few number in Arabic texts --- and a small number of Latin fragments have also been discovered.

So, by what logic do the Regional Arabs conclude that they have some claim to the heritage???

Most Respectfully,
R


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## aris2chat (Nov 7, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> et al,
> 
> I'm just a bit confused here.
> 
> ...



Hyrcania was a hesmonean fort that might have traded with desert arabs


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## Penelope (Nov 7, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Jews, Hebrews, Arabs, same thing.


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## Eloy (Nov 7, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


You confuse Muslim with Arab.


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## montelatici (Nov 7, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



You are a moron


Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



You still haven't figured out the difference between Arabs, people that speak Arabic, and Arabians, the people from the Arabian peninsula.  But you  were never  the sharpest knife in the drawer.

The ancestors of the native Christians and Muslims of Palestine didn't adopt Arabic until well after the fall of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem.  They spoke Latin, Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek at various time throughout the area's history  Jesus spoke Aramaic as his mother tongue.


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 Not according to the DNA carried out that shows the Jews/Hebrews ars cmpletely different to the arab's


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## Phoenall (Nov 7, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 No as arab's prior to mo'mad were mostly nomads and had no settled lands. It was the Jews that built the Cities like Medina and Mecca and populated them.The arab's became jealous of the Jews wealth and so joined mo'mad in his conquest of the lands.


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## Shusha (Nov 7, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> islamic culture includes all jewish and christian historical culture.



No.  No.  One culture does not get to co-opt and usurp another people's culture and call it their own.  Jewish writings remain Jewish writings.  



PurpleOwl said:


> why would they destroy something sacred to them?



Jewish holy writings are not sacred to Islam.  Islam believes not only that the Jewish people got it wrong when listening to G-d's instructions, but that the Jewish people deliberately corrupted G-d's Word for their own selfish ends.  So, no, Islam has no reason to preserve Jewish Holy Writings.


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## Hossfly (Nov 7, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


 
Why don't you tell us what religion most of the Arabs are in that part of the world?   In fact, there is a leader  of an Orthodox Christian Church in Israel who said that Christians shouldn't even be referred to as Arabs.  He had another name for them.

BTW, I think you should Google History of Jihad to become aware of what happened centuries ago when the Muslim Arabs left the Saudi Peninsula.

Does anyone with a head on his or her shoulders think that Eloy would be making such a big deal about the Palestinians being given the scrolls if another group of people, say the Buddists, were involved?


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## montelatici (Nov 7, 2016)

Shusha said:


> PurpleOwl said:
> 
> 
> > islamic culture includes all jewish and christian historical culture.
> ...



You are confusing religion with ethnic and cultural identity.  Just because most people that practiced Judaism in Palestine became Christians (or converted to the Roman religions and then became Christians when Christianity became the state religion of Rome) doesn't mean that Jewish Holy Writings are not part of their heritage.  Pre-Christian Roman Holy Writings form part of the heritage of Europeans who now practice different religions, including Judaism.

That most of these people then converted to Islam doesn't change the people and their heritage.


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## aris2chat (Nov 7, 2016)

Lest some forget...........................

*WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS*


*by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi*








*THE QUR'AN SAYS THAT ALLAH GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS 
AND WILL RESTORE THEM TO IT AT THE END OF DAYS*




THE QUR'AN SAYS:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

SHAYKH PROF. PALAZZI COMMENTS:

God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.

The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.



****************************************


MUSLIMS MUST RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE

Is there any fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State?

I realize that a negative answer to the above question is taken for granted by popular opinion. My approach, however, is not based on popular opinion or the current political situation, but on a theological analysis of authentic Islamic sources.

Viewing the Jewish return to Israel as a Western invasion and Zionists as recent colonizers is new. It has no basis in authentic Islamic faith. According to the Qur'an, no person, people or religious community can claim a permanent right of possession over any territory. The Earth belongs exclusively to God, and He is free to entrust sovereignty over land to whomever He likes for whatever time period that He chooses.

"Say: 'O God, King of the kingdom (1), Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest; Thou endowest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: all the best is in Thy hand. Verily, Thou hast power over all things.'"(2) [Qur'an 3:26]

From the above Qur'anic verse we deduce a basic principle of the Monotheistic philosophy of history: God chooses as He likes in the relationship between peoples and countries. Sometimes He gives a land to a people, and sometimes He takes His possession back and gives it to another people.

In general, we can say that He gives as a reward for faithfulness and takes back as a punishment for wickedness, but this rule does not permit us to say that God's ways are always plain and clear to our eyes, since His secrets are inaccessible to the human intellect.

Using Islam as a basis for preventing Arabs from recognizing any sovereign right of Jews over the Land of Israel is new. Such beliefs are not found in classical Islamic sources.

Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology.

Such a false transformation of Islam was in fact made by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini. He is the one person most responsible, both morally and materially, for the repeated Arab defeats in their conflict with the Jews in Israel.

Husseni not only incited Arabs against Jews. He also encouraged the torture and murder of all Arabs who correctly understood that Arab cooperation with Jews was a precious opportunity for the development of the Land of Israel. Husseini ended his woeful life by putting his perverted religious teachings at the service of the evil and pagan Nazis.

After Husseini came Jamal al-Din 'Abd al-Nasser. Nasser based his policy on Pan-Arabism, hatred and contempt for Jews, and an alliance with the atheistic Soviet Union. Nasser's terrible choices were critical factors in maintaining Arab backwardness. Fortunately, most of Nasser's mistakes were afterward corrected by the martyr Anwar Sadat. (3)

After the defeat of Nasserianism, Islamic fundamentalist movements made anti-Zionism the primary feature of their propaganda. They presented the negation of any Jewish rights to the Land of Israel as rooted in authentic Islam and derived from authentic Islamic religious principles.



***********************************


*Mod Edit: please don't post entire article, post only a section and a link.*


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## aris2chat (Nov 7, 2016)

Lest palestinians forget......






The Temple Institute has acquired a copy of the *Official 1925 Supreme Moslem Council (Wakf) Guide Book to the Temple Mount*. Of particular interest is page four, paragraph two, in which the booklet admits proudly to the Temple Mount's inexorable connection to the Holy Temple built by King Solomon on land purchased by King David, complete with a reference to II Samuel 24:25.

In recent years the Moslem Wakf has come to deny the historic existence of the Holy Temple, claiming that the Temple Mount belongs solely to the Moslem nation, and that there exists no connection between the Jewish nation and the Temple Mount. It is clear from this pamphlet that the revised Wakf position strays from traditional Moslem acknowledgment of the Mount's Jewish antecedents. The current denial of historical reality is merely one tool in the war being waged by Moslems against the G-d of Israel and the entire "infidel" world.

A second reference to the Second Temple is made on page sixteen, again in the second paragraph describing the underground chamber known as Solomon's Stables. Quoting the Jewish historian Josephus, the document cites the "conquest of Jerusalem by Titus in the year 70 AD."

To download a facsimile of the entire sixteen page guidebook, please click here. (pdf file)


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## Eloy (Nov 8, 2016)

aris2chat said:


> Lest some forget...........................
> 
> *WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS*
> 
> ...


Forgive me for saying so but you are using-up too much ink.


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## Phoenall (Nov 8, 2016)

Eloy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Lest some forget...........................
> ...











In destroying your claims using historical islamic sources that no muslim would dare say were untrue. Putting you on very thin ice when it comes to knowing what muslim think and do. I would advise you to read a copy of the koran in its true form, and not the sanitised form known in the west. You dont read it from back to front ( islamic notation ) you read it as it was spoken so yiu start somewhere in the middle and work either way. Doing this gives you a better understanding of how mo'mads mental state became worse during his life.


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## aris2chat (Nov 8, 2016)

Chronological Order of Surahs


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## Phoenall (Nov 8, 2016)

aris2chat said:


> Chronological Order of Surahs








 Thank you, much appreciated


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## fanger (Nov 8, 2016)

In early 1947, a Bedouin boy of the Ta'amireh tribe, Muhammid Ahmed el-Hamed called _edh-Dhib_ (the wolf), found a cave after searching for a lost animal. He stumbled onto the first cave containing scrolls from two thousand years ago. More Ta'amireh visited the cave and scrolls were taken back to their encampment. They were shown to Mar Samuel of the Monastery of Saint Mark in April 1947 and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was made known. 

Arrangements with the Bedouin left the scrolls in the hands of a third party until a profitable sale of them could be negotiated. That third party, George Isha'ya, was a member of the Syrian Orthodox Church, who soon contacted St Mark's Monastery in the hope of getting an appraisal of the nature of the texts. News of the find then reached Metropolitan Athanasius Yeshue Samuel, better known as Mar Samuel. After examining the scrolls and suspecting their antiquity, Mar Samuel expressed an interest in purchasing them. Four scrolls found their way into his hands: the now famous _Isaiah Scroll_ (1QIsaa), the _Community Rule_, the _Habakkuk Pesher_ (a commentary on the book of Habakkuk), and the _Genesis Apocryphon_. More scrolls soon surfaced in the antiquities market, and Professor Eleazer Sukenik and Professor Benjamin Mazar, Israeli archaeologists at Hebrew University, soon found themselves in possession of three,_The War Scroll_, _Thanksgiving Hymns_, and another, more fragmented, Isaiah scroll

Prior to the establishment of the Rockefeller Museum, the British Mandate Department of Antiquities and British School of Archaeology were housed in an old building in Jerusalem with a small exhibition hall. The only other archaeological museum at the time was the Franciscan Biblical Museum, built in 1902.[4]

In 1906, the Jewish National Fund began to negotiate the purchase of Karm el-Sheikh, a tract of land facing the northeastern corner of the Old City walls, to house the Bezalel School of Art and Crafts. The founder of the school, Boris Schatz envisaged a museum and university that would overlook the Temple Mount.[5] In 1919, town planner Patrick Geddes proposed the establishment of an antiquities museum at this site. To further the project, the Mandate authorities proposed a special tourism tax in 1924.[4]

Visiting Palestine in 1925, during the days of the British Mandate, James Henry Breasted, founder and director of the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute, recognized the need for an archaeological museum in Jerusalem to house important regional finds.[6] Encouraged by Lord Plumer, the British High Commissioner, Breasted approached American philanthropist John D. Rockefeller, Jr., who agreed to donate two million dollars toward the project. Previously, he had offered to build an archeological museum in Cairo, Egypt, but he was turned down, possibly due to pressure from the British government, which was anxious to keep America from establishing a foothold in the region.



The museum opened to the public on January 13, 1938. Officially, it was called the _Palestine Archaeological Museum_, but was also known as the _Rockefeller Museum_.[7]

In 1967, following the Israeli capture and occupation of East Jerusalem, the scrolls were seized by Israel and relocated to the Shrine of the Book, a specially designed building on the grounds of the Israel Museum, with the ownership of these scrolls having been heavily contested ever since. The Copper Scroll was taken to the Jordan Archaeological Museum in Amman
Rockefeller Museum - Wikipedia
seized by Israel= stolen


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## Phoenall (Nov 8, 2016)

fanger said:


> In early 1947, a Bedouin boy of the Ta'amireh tribe, Muhammid Ahmed el-Hamed called _edh-Dhib_ (the wolf), found a cave after searching for a lost animal. He stumbled onto the first cave containing scrolls from two thousand years ago. More Ta'amireh visited the cave and scrolls were taken back to their encampment. They were shown to Mar Samuel of the Monastery of Saint Mark in April 1947 and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was made known.
> 
> Arrangements with the Bedouin left the scrolls in the hands of a third party until a profitable sale of them could be negotiated. That third party, George Isha'ya, was a member of the Syrian Orthodox Church, who soon contacted St Mark's Monastery in the hope of getting an appraisal of the nature of the texts. News of the find then reached Metropolitan Athanasius Yeshue Samuel, better known as Mar Samuel. After examining the scrolls and suspecting their antiquity, Mar Samuel expressed an interest in purchasing them. Four scrolls found their way into his hands: the now famous _Isaiah Scroll_ (1QIsaa), the _Community Rule_, the _Habakkuk Pesher_ (a commentary on the book of Habakkuk), and the _Genesis Apocryphon_. More scrolls soon surfaced in the antiquities market, and Professor Eleazer Sukenik and Professor Benjamin Mazar, Israeli archaeologists at Hebrew University, soon found themselves in possession of three,_The War Scroll_, _Thanksgiving Hymns_, and another, more fragmented, Isaiah scroll
> 
> ...








 Cut and paste from wiki without giving the source is against the rules, do you like being banned ?


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## fanger (Nov 8, 2016)

Rockefeller Museum - Wikipedia
Do you like being an Idiot?


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## Hollie (Nov 8, 2016)

fanger said:


> Rockefeller Museum - Wikipedia
> Do you like being an Idiot?


Why would the Arab-Moslem terrorists occupying the disputed territories demand historical and archeological data that has nothing to do with the politico-religious ideology invented by muhammud (swish)?


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## fanger (Nov 8, 2016)

Why would Jews demand the return of Artwork they didn't produce, seized by the Elected German Government during WW2?


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## Hollie (Nov 8, 2016)

fanger said:


> Why would Jews demand the return of Artwork they didn't produce, seized by the Elected German Government during WW2?


That has no connection to the thread topic.


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## Phoenall (Nov 8, 2016)

fanger said:


> Rockefeller Museum - Wikipedia
> Do you like being an Idiot?






What was it before Jordan invaded Jerusalem then, as it wasnt arab muslim land was it. Just as the west bank wasnt arab muslims either so what gave them the right to steal it from the Jews.


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## Phoenall (Nov 8, 2016)

fanger said:


> Why would Jews demand the return of Artwork they didn't produce, seized by the Elected German Government during WW2?







 Because they owned them legally, unlike the arab muslims who owned nothing what so ever in that part of the world and still claim that it is theirs against islamonazi jurisprudence.


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## Lipush (Nov 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> 
> The audacity of it is shocking.
> 
> Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.



Next, they'll demand the Tables of Stone. They said Moses stole them from some poor Palestinian who reached Mount Sinai first.

Think I'm joking? Just wait and see, it may happen with those wackos.


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## Lipush (Nov 8, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > PurpleOwl said:
> ...



The scrolls belong to the Jewish people, like any other sacred artifacts of Judaism belong to the Jewish people. What do Muslims have to do with Hebrew scrolls?

Are you history thieves or just pure insane, Pro-Palestinians?


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## Lipush (Nov 8, 2016)

Eloy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



The West Bank was never legally part of Jordan, and Jordan knew and still knows it.

Wow. I'm stunned by the amount of disimformation in this place. Jeez.


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## Lipush (Nov 8, 2016)

theliq said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > PurpleOwl said:
> ...



UNESCO are gods among men?


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## Lipush (Nov 8, 2016)

fanger said:


> Jordan  Alleges that the Dead Sea Scrolls were stolen from the Palestine Archaeological Museum (now the Rockefeller Museum) operated by Jordan from 1966 until the Six-Day Warwhen advancing Israeli forces took control of the Museum, and that therefore they fall under the rules of the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.[164] Jordan regularly demands their return and petitions third-party countries that host the scrolls to return them to Jordan instead of to Israel, claiming they have legal documents that prove Jordanian ownership of the scrolls.
> Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia



That's like a midwife saying that a mom stole her newborn from the hospital.


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## Eloy (Nov 9, 2016)

Lipush said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Since the Scrolls were housed in an East Jerusalem museum and illegally seized by the Israelis in 1967, it can be argued that Palestine has the highest claim on their custodial care in their proposed capital of East Jerusalem.


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## Eloy (Nov 9, 2016)

Lipush said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


East Jerusalem is not part of Israel but occupied Palestinian territory.


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## aris2chat (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Givat Ram neighborhood of Jerusalem


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## aris2chat (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...




Do you know anything?

Palestinians have no claim on the scrolls


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## Eloy (Nov 9, 2016)

aris2chat said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


Forgive me but I do not answer a person who prefaces their question with an insult.


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## Phoenall (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








WHO STOLE EAST JERUSALEM IN 1948 THEN, OR DOESN'T THAT COUNT IN YOUR TWISTED PRO ISLAMONAZI MIND


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## Phoenall (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...







 When did it become palestinian land then as the evidence of history shows it was Jewish until 1948 when Jordan invaded and took the land illegally from the People of the World. As aris asked    " dont you know anything"


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## Lipush (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Again I say, saying this, is like saying a baby is "seized" by his mother because it was naturally "hosted" in the maternity ward.


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## Eloy (Nov 9, 2016)

Lipush said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


To use your analogy, the seizure of the Scrolls was more the the kidnapping of a newborn by a crazed maternity ward midwife. I hope this helps you understand.


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## Hossfly (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Oh yes you did!


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## aris2chat (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...




Givat Ram was never east.  Israel 

You can't claim that side if the city............ or any side

Jewish will not be denied their religion or their homeland again

Givat Ram was not jordanian nor will it be part of the west  bank or palestinian

Why would you have possibly have gotten the idea of the scroll museum being in the east?  Obviously you don't know anything

How many ways will keep "trying" to make excuses for claiming what is not palestinian?

Some of those scrolls are also property rights to jewish land.

If palestinians are nice, perhaps Israel will give them a fragment of one of the less significant scrolls for their own museum as a token.


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## fanger (Nov 9, 2016)

Under Resolution 181 (II) adopted in 1947, East Jerusalem, which is home to the museum that held the scrolls until 1967, is part of a "Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem" that is supposed to be administered by the United Nations, further complicating matters. East Jerusalem was under Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967 and has been under Israeli occupation since 1967.
Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia


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## aris2chat (Nov 9, 2016)

fanger said:


> Under Resolution 181 (II) adopted in 1947, East Jerusalem, which is home to the museum that held the scrolls until 1967, is part of a "Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem" that is supposed to be administered by the United Nations, further complicating matters. East Jerusalem was under Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967 and has been under Israeli occupation since 1967.
> Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia



Givat Ram is not in east jerusalem, not old city, not under Jordanian occupation

Shrine of the book is in Givat Ram

They are the heritage of the jewish people and their faith


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## Phoenall (Nov 9, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...







That would be the palestinians then, as they have no right to the child.   Did an arab muslim calling themselves a palestinian write the scrolls, then transport them to Qumran from a Synagogue ? Remember there were no arab's as we know them today in existence before the 8C and these scrolls predate even this so how can they be their holy relics or sacred artifacts. Even their own holy book says they have no claims on anything from the Jews, including their ancestral lands


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## Phoenall (Nov 9, 2016)

fanger said:


> Under Resolution 181 (II) adopted in 1947, East Jerusalem, which is home to the museum that held the scrolls until 1967, is part of a "Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem" that is supposed to be administered by the United Nations, further complicating matters. East Jerusalem was under Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967 and has been under Israeli occupation since 1967.
> Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia









 That is right you muslims usurped international law again and invaded a CORPUS SEPARARTUM and stole it as your own So anything that was there when Israel freed it for the world was lost for ever to you muslims. Yiou will be losing a lot more of the things you have stolen over the next few years as your oil runs out and the world turns against you more and more.


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## RoccoR (Nov 9, 2016)

fanger,  et al,

There are a couple of other thing that the Arab's did that proved to be additional obstacles to the further implementation of Resolution 181 (II) adopted in 1947.  The Arabs Palestinians thought they could get Jerusalem just for the demand and taking.



fanger said:


> Under Resolution 181 (II) adopted in 1947, East Jerusalem, which is home to the museum that held the scrolls until 1967, is part of a "Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem" that is supposed to be administered by the United Nations, further complicating matters. East Jerusalem was under Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967 and has been under Israeli occupation since 1967.
> Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia


*(COMMENT)*

When in April 1950, Jordan annexed the territories captured by the Arab Legion in the 1948 war –- it included East Jerusalem.  Without regard to recognition,  Jordan had extended sovereign authority and control over the West Bank and Jerusalem.

In 1967, when Israel gained effective control, the territory was STILL JORDANIAN SOVEREIGN.   In 1988, the Jordanians relinquished all ties and control over the West Bank and Jerusalem.  At that moment, the only sovereignty to have control was Israel _(the West Bank and Jerusalem were "terra nullius")_.  A Provisional Government had not yet evolved by the Arab Palestinians.  The West Bank and Jerusalem were in the hands of the Israelis.

I agree a challenge can be made.  But I do not think it is obviouswhat party has the greater claim.

Most Respectfully
R


----------



## Eloy (Nov 9, 2016)

aris2chat said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


East Jerusalem is in the Occupied Territories.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...







occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1988 when they gave it up and handed it to Israel.Dont forget Jordan invaded mandate of palestine lands illegally and against res 181 and the UN charter


----------



## Shusha (Nov 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> I agree a challenge can be made.  But I do not think it is obvious what party has the greater claim.
> 
> Most Respectfully
> R



Rocco, I'm not sure what you mean by this.  The responsibility and guardianship for the preservation of a people's culture resides with the culture which created it.  Shifting borders and shifting national allegiances do not change the ownership of a cultural heritage or artifact.


----------



## Lipush (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Not only the comparison is wrong, it makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.


----------



## Eloy (Nov 10, 2016)

Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > I agree a challenge can be made.  But I do not think it is obvious what party has the greater claim.
> ...


The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...







Because they did not exist then did they, their forefathers were still in Israel, and Qumran. But this is the new hate site mantra that they are overusing until it has no meaning after being warned about the new anti semitism being anti zionism. Looks like anti East European Jewish shtetls are the even newer anti semitism.


Want tio keep on making that hole you are in bigger and deeper as you are just making a cross for your own back


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 10, 2016)

_Shusha,  et al,_

Yes, I agree the central issue in regards to the responsibility, guardianship and preservation of a culture _(all things being equal and in a prefect world)_.  Unfortunately we don't live in a prefect world.



Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > I agree a challenge can be made.  But I do not think it is obvious what party has the greater claim.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

"Sovereignty, Independence and Loyalty" are very different constructs from that of "ownership of a culture and the heritage behind that culture."

To be honest, I don't have a clear understanding of what the Arab Palestinian heritage _(language, courtesies, traditions, achievements, beliefs, etc)_ contains that is unique Arab Palestinian --- and not found in any other Arab culture _(Arab *Lebanese*, Arab *Jordanians*, Arab *Iraqi*, Arab *Egyptian*)_.  When we talk about the great Cedar  Trees, you know we are talking about Lebanon.  When we speak of the ancient Arab Kingdom capital of Petra, you know we are talking about the Kingdom of Jordan.  When we speak of the Ziggurats you know we are talking about ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq).  When we speak of the Pyramids, we immediately think of the Egyptians.

*When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?*  I am embarrassed to say that earlier this year,  while speaking about the affinity of Arab Palestinian with the rest of the Arab League, I was corrected _(politically and culturally)_.  I did not know that *Jordan is the only Arab country* where Palestinians can become citizens.  *What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?*

*(COMMENT TWO)*

So, I am even more careful now to assert that something is the case, the Arab Palestinians owns something legally...

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Eloy (Nov 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> _... _
> When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?


Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.



RoccoR said:


> What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?


The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > _... _
> ...









 When did this come about as they never had any soveriegnty over palestine. They migrated illegally starting in 1875 or so, shown by the population growth being 3 to 4 times greater than that of the surrounding arab muslim nations with better health care and medical provisions.

How can it be the 3rd most holiest site in islam when it was not built until after the death of mo'mad. It was desecrated many times by the muslims and still is to this day, left to rot unless they could use it as a political lever against the infidels. The real al aqsa mosque that is the third most holiest site is the one on the road out of Medina. Just follow the path of the night travels.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> *What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation? *


*
*
Culturally?  The only things I have been able to find are a slight differentiation in the pronunciation of the <g> sound and regional differences in the embroidery patterns on women's dresses which is common to a much wider cultural area.  

But this is entirely my point when it comes to "Palestinian" culture.  They are attempting to usurp the Jewish culture as their own, as though being "Palestinian" is an outgrowth of being Jewish, rather than a different culture all together.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.


Right.  As do the Jewish people.



RoccoR said:


> The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.



And it absolutely deserves preservation.  As does the rest of the Temple Mount for the Jewish people.  Part of that is the requirement for Arabs and Muslims worldwide to acknowledge the Jewish history of the place.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy said:


> The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.



The Dead Sea Scrolls were created by the Jewish people.  What happened to the Jewish people after that time does not in any way lessen either the Jewish people nor their ties to Jewish history.


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy,  et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.



Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > _... _
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination.   There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians.  You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles _(almost to the outskirts of __Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo)_ and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination.  It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.



Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs.  The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria _(to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan)_.  But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate. 

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word. 
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Eloy (Nov 10, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The Dead Sea Scrolls were not created by Jews in the East European shtetls.
> ...


It looks like the Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a very old Jewish sect. Scholars are of the opinion that this group became extinct soon after the destruction of Herod's Temple by the Romans in 70 CE. The Christians who developed from another Jewish sect would have shared in this tradition. Modern Jews cannot therefore expect to be the sole inheritors of ancient Judaism. For this reason, people speak of the Judeo-Christian tradition. It must be borne in mind that Muslims accept the legitimacy of the Bible and share in that tradition too. The Holy Land is the birthplace of three great religious traditions. It is not correct for you to claim that the Scrolls were created by the Jewish people, if by that you mean that only modern day Jews have the best claim to their ownership. We all own them.


----------



## Eloy (Nov 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.
> 
> ...


You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy,  et al,

No, I did not say that at all.



Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

You did not answer the questions in the Posting, above.

Who maintained the Mosque? 
Who restored the mosque? 
Who is working on the Mosque today?​Would built it?  Did the Arab Palestinians lift one single stone.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Eloy (Nov 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> No, I did not say that at all.
> 
> ...


International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 10, 2016)

Eloy,  et al,

Yes, you will have to teach me here.



Eloy said:


> International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
> Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’


*(COMMENT)*

Exactly what "International Law gives special authority to Jordan over Jerusalem?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (Nov 10, 2016)

You are perfectly welcome to follow the tenets of my religious faith (not that Christians and Muslims DO follow the tenets of the Jewish religious faith -- they do not), aka share in that tradition. It is actually AWESOME that you value the gift that G-d gave to the Jewish people and to all humanity with His Teaching or Torah (not that either Christians or Muslims DO value the gift of the Torah -- they do not.)

However, that does not give you leave to usurp and take ownership of OUR cultural heritage.  The cultural heritage of each culture belongs to the culture which created it and must be under the guardianship and caretakership of that culture.  The Jewish people have the ONLY claim to ownership of JEWISH historical and religious writings.  

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.  Shall Israel take over the guardianship of Mecca and Medina?  Shall Canada take over the guardianship of Egyptian cultural heritage?  Shall Japan control Stonehenge or the tribal burial grounds of the Sioux People or the sacred space of Teotihuacan?

*Should Israel be in control of Al-Aqsa?!  Should Israel be the custodian of Al-Aqsa?!*



And as an aside, no, Islam does NOT except the legitimacy of Torah and Tanakh.  Islam rejects it as corrupt and in error.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > *What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation? *
> ...








 There is also a problem in pronouncing P as in Palestine, so they say Filastin instead


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.
> 
> ...









 Many people dont look at the history of the place and so forget that palestine once was much larger than what they see today. It was the whole of Israel, Jordan, West bank and gaza along with parts of Saudi arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria. To comply with islamonazi propaganda the majority of palestine has been removed from the table and only that tiny part of the west bank remains as being of concern. Prior to 1917 palestine was an area on the maps designation the original lands of Israel as named by the Roman Empire. Post 1917 the arab muslims after recieving 78% of these lands demanded the remaining 22% as it was arab muslim palestine and this is where the problems arise. There was never a nation of palestine in existence, the land that the arab muslims have claimed was granted under international treaty/law to the Jeys as their national home and the UN usurped their authority when they tried to partition this land giving the arab muslims the most productive and fertile parts. A pity the arab muslims were greedy and wanted all or nothing so we have the violence we have today. The answer is for the world to beat down the arabs and put them in their place, peace treaties wont work as they are seen as temporary chances to rebuild armies. They only respond to the might is right credo as shown by how Jordan treated them and has cowed them ever since.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 No evidence to support your fairy story so until you can show that "Christians" were an offshoot of this alleged sect go and blow it out your ass. The scrolls are Jewish, END OF STORY


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> Yes, you will have to teach me here.
> 
> ...









 Here we have another islamonazi propagandist trotting out the " international law says Israel should be nuked" stories without providing the actual International law and when it was enacted. They hope that no one will question their claims and will silently keep pushing international laws that dont exist.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...









 And you have an even bigger problem accepting that the al aqsa mosque in Jerusalem is not the one mentioned in the night journey. That one is on the road outside of Medina and is the real 3rd most holy site in islam. One thing the muslims are good at is conning the likes of you into believing the Jews are evil and should be wiped out. Look at how many times this carbuncle has been destroyed and left to rot, only to be rebuilt when it would give the muslims an edge over the rest of the world. The last time it was Jordan that covered the dome in gold leaf to make it look good from a distance, and then the arab muslims ripped the structeure apart to use as ammunition to attack non muslims with.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...








 WHAT INTERNATIONAL LAW IS THAT THEN, GIVE FULL DETAILS ?


----------



## Eloy (Nov 11, 2016)

Shusha said:


> You are perfectly welcome to follow the tenets of my religious faith (not that Christians and Muslims DO follow the tenets of the Jewish religious faith -- they do not), aka share in that tradition. It is actually AWESOME that you value the gift that G-d gave to the Jewish people and to all humanity with His Teaching or Torah (not that either Christians or Muslims DO value the gift of the Torah -- they do not.)
> 
> However, that does not give you leave to usurp and take ownership of OUR cultural heritage.  The cultural heritage of each culture belongs to the culture which created it and must be under the guardianship and caretakership of that culture.  The Jewish people have the ONLY claim to ownership of JEWISH historical and religious writings.
> 
> ...


Please stop usurping the ancient Jewish writings for modern Jews alone and denying the Jewish roots of Christian people.


----------



## Eloy (Nov 11, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> Yes, you will have to teach me here.
> 
> ...


The Waqf (Religious Trust) Ministry of Jordan held control of the al-Aqsa Mosque until the 1967 war when it came into the possession of Israel. Israel transferred the control of the mosque to the Jordanian/Palestinian-led Islamic Waqf.


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy, et al,

Yes, I see...



Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There are a couple developments you might want to consider.

•  When Jordan annex the West Bank (including Jerusalem) in April 1950, Jerusalem fell under Jordanian sovereign law (not international law) and thus the various countries ministries. 

•  In 1967, when Israel took effective control, the Jordanian ministries lost all "ability" to impose Islamic Law.

•  In 1988, when Jordan severed all political ties and abandon the West Bank (including Jerusalem), the Jordanian ministries lost all "authority" to impose Islamic Law.​Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > You are perfectly welcome to follow the tenets of my religious faith (not that Christians and Muslims DO follow the tenets of the Jewish religious faith -- they do not), aka share in that tradition. It is actually AWESOME that you value the gift that G-d gave to the Jewish people and to all humanity with His Teaching or Torah (not that either Christians or Muslims DO value the gift of the Torah -- they do not.)
> ...








 What Jewish roots are those then as Christianity was created by Romans and Greeks. The ancient Jewish writings are exactly that Ancient Jewish writings. They are not ancient Christian writings or ancient islamic writings are they as niether was formed until at least 400 years after the ancient Jewish Writings were taken to Qumran.


 SO YOU STOP USURPING THE JEWISH RIGHTS TO CLAIM THEIR ANCIENT ARTIFACTS AS THEIRS AND STOP TRYING TO DENY THEM THEIR HUMAN, CIVIL, RELIGIOUS AND LEGAL RIGHTS ALL THE TIME


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...







 Not an International law in sight, so why are you deflecting.

 Remember that Jordan also stole the land from the Jewish owners in 1948/1949, or would this mean that you will have to change your POV. Any other nation would have evicted the arab muslims, demolished the carbuncles and re-built the Temple and told the muslims to take a hike, but once again the Jews played Mr nice guy and gave the muslims some leeway to meet and debate peace and borders.      NEVER AGAIN WILL WE THE WORLD TRUST MUSLIMS


----------



## Shusha (Nov 11, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy, et al,
> 
> Yes, I see...
> 
> ...



I think Eloy is thinking of the Jordan/Israel Peace Treaty Article 9 which reads:

_ARTICLE 9

PLACES OF HISTORICAL AND RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE
_

_Each party will provide freedom of access to places of religious and historical significance.

_
_In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines.

_
_The Parties will act together to promote interfaith relations among the three monotheistic religions, with the aim of working towards religious understanding, moral commitment, freedom of religious worship, and tolerance and peace._


Note that Israel did not transfer actual control or sovereignty of the Muslim Holy shrines to Jordan. Israel still holds both control and sovereignty.  

Israeli law upholds this with the Protection of Holy Places Law, 1967.  


_The Holy Places shall be protected from desecration and any other violation and from anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings with regard to those places.
_

_Whosoever desecrates or otherwise violates a Holy Place shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of seven years.
_
_Whosoever does anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings with regard to those places shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of five years._

_This Law shall add to, and not derogate from, any other law.
_
_The Minister of Religious Affairs is charged with the implementation of this Law, and he may, after consultation with, or upon the proposal of, representatives of the religions concerned and with the consent of the Minister of Justice make regulations as to any matter relating to such implementation._


_This Law shall come into force on the date of its adoption by the Knesset._

Which was upheld in The Temple Mount Faithful vs. Tzahi Hanegbi:

_‘every Jew has the right to ascend the Temple Mount, to pray on it, and to commune with his Creator. That is part of the freedom of religious worship; that is part of the freedom of expression. At the same time, this right, like other basic rights, is not an absolute right, and in a place at which the likelihood of damage to the public peace and even to human life is almost certain – this can justify limiting the freedom of religious worship and also limiting the freedom of expression’_

So, to reiterate:  International Law upholds the right of ALL peoples to religious freedom and access to Holy Places.  Israel retains control and sovereignty over the Holy Places.  Israel respects the special role of Jordan in the Muslim Shrines.


----------



## Eloy (Nov 11, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy, et al,
> 
> Yes, I see...
> 
> ...


Israel does not contest that the Islamic waqf trust has authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Do you?


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy, et al,
> ...









 Only partial authority, and not full authority as the treaty says

_In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines.




 They cant give up all control and then come back and say we made a mistake can we now have it back ?_


----------



## Shusha (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Israel does not contest that the Islamic waqf trust has authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Do you?



You over-simplify.  Israel has actual sovereignty over the Temple Mount at this time and asserts her sovereignty there on a daily basis.  Israel also asserts her sovereign claim over all of Jerusalem in theory and in practice.  

Israel has both a legal agreement (peace treaty) and a gentleman's agreement with Jordan that the Islamic Waqf has some authority to manage the Muslim shrines on the Holy Site.  

Even though international and Israeli law clearly states that people of ALL religious faiths have the right to access their places of worship, Israel VOLUNTARILY restricts the rights of the Jewish people in order to pacify (in its most literal sense) Muslims who feel that using murderous violence to prevent people from worshiping G-d is both appropriate and necessary.  

The Holy Places MUST remain under the sovereignty of Israel because only Israel is capable of realizing the morally correct attitude that everyone must have freedom of religion and freedom to worship.


----------



## montelatici (Nov 11, 2016)

What hubris.  Only Israel is morally correct.  Sheesh.


----------



## Eloy (Nov 11, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Israel does not contest that the Islamic waqf trust has authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Do you?
> ...


What you write is very ideologically based. When Israel occupied Jerusalem in June 1967, the issue of Jews entering the area of the Al Aqsa Mosque was indefinitely postponed as a result of a ruling by the Chief Rabbinate on 10th June 1967. It ruled that because the location is holy to Jews, no religious Jew is allowed to set foot on any of the area that is referred to as the Temple Mount by Jews in order not to defile it. The statement said: "In view of the fact that the holiness of the area never ceases, it is forbidden to ascend the Temple Mount until the Temple is built."
The Israeli Chief Rabbinate and the Temple Mount Question
The unique situation at Al-Aqsa compound, where the Islamic Waqf — an affiliate of the Ministry of Awqaf in Jordan — is entrusted by the Muslim world to administer and control the entire site together _with the Israelis_. With this understanding, there is no problem concerning access to the Al Aqsa Mosque and its surrounding compound. Al-Aqsa has banned non-Muslim prayer since 1187. Only trouble-makers say differently.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 11, 2016)

montelatici said:


> What hubris.  Only Israel is morally correct.  Sheesh.


As compared to Islamic fascists, yes, Israel is the obvious choice.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 11, 2016)

montelatici said:


> What hubris.  Only Israel is morally correct.  Sheesh.



You need to read more carefully.  Here is what I said:   _only Israel is capable of realizing the morally correct attitude that everyone must have freedom of religion and freedom to worship
_
Do you, or do you not believe that everyone must have freedom to worship and practice their religious faith at places which are Holy to them?  Yes or no?  Do you or do you not believe that this is the morally correct way of being?  Yes or no?

Who is capable of realizing (bringing about) religious freedom for everyone?  

Certainly not the Muslims at this point in time.  They have a hissy fit whenever Jews DARE to even visit our most Holy Place -- let alone worship or hold services there.  Let alone re-build a Temple dedicated to G-d, even with the assumption of non-interference with Al-Aqsa and the Dome.  They start a freaking murderous intifada on the very pretext that the Jewish people be able to fully access our Holy Place.  

The very reason Israel sacrifices both international law and what is morally correct is because it would start a WWIII JIHAD should Israel DARE try to have equality of religion on the Temple Mount.  Who are you kidding?

Do you actually believe that Muslims are capable, at this moment, of permitting equality of worship?  Give me a break.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Al-Aqsa has banned non-Muslim prayer since 1187. Only trouble-makers say differently.



Either you believe that everyone should have the freedom to worship as they choose in places which have religious significance to them or you do not.  Which is it, Eloy ?  Do you believe in religious freedom?  Or do you believe that only ONE religion has the right to religious freedom?  

Because you are given away in your post above.  You say that those who want equality and shared access and human rights are trouble-makers.  Yep.  That's why Israel MUST maintain the Temple Mount.


----------



## Eloy (Nov 11, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Al-Aqsa has banned non-Muslim prayer since 1187. Only trouble-makers say differently.
> ...


Since Jews are forbidden by ruling of the Chief Rabbinate to set foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade, it follows that only those who want trouble seek to change this status quo.


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## Shusha (Nov 11, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Since Jews are forbidden by ruling of the Chief Rabbinate to set foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade, it follows that only those who want trouble seek to change this status quo.



The status quo, which states that only SOME people should have religious freedom is morally wrong.  Yes or no?

Its a simple question.  Answer it.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 11, 2016)

Its also legally wrong.  Just saying.


----------



## Eloy (Nov 11, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Since Jews are forbidden by ruling of the Chief Rabbinate to set foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade, it follows that only those who want trouble seek to change this status quo.
> ...


You got your answer from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who stated "I want to clarify, we strictly keep to the status quo on the Temple Mount."
Israel ‘keeps the status quo on the Temple Mount,’ Netanyahu assures Muslims on Ramadan eve


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 11, 2016)

montelatici,  et al

Oh Please!   Give me a break...  The Arab Palestinian is one of the last countries in the world that should attempt to criticize Israel on matters of philosophy which addresses questions of morality.  The damn Hostile Arab Palestinian damn near perfected the art of kidnapping and murder, hi-jacking, suicide bombings, attacks on school busees and the elderly.



montelatici said:


> What hubris.  Only Israel is morally correct.  Sheesh.


*(COMMENT)*

Since the advent of the San Remo accords, and Articles 13 thru 16 of the Mandate; concern has been expressed for the protection of sacred places and significant archaeological finds.  

It is not unusual for the HostileArab Palestinians and Radicalized Islamic Zealots to periodically create an event of a hostile nature -- that spotlights the such places as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock (including the Foundation Stone, and the al-Aqsa Mosque), the Western Wall/Wailing Wall, Jerusalem’s Zion Gate connecting the Old City to Mount Zion.

The Paltue itself is not so much sacred as it is a means of inviting and inciting a disturbance.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 And then in 1967 the new sovereigns  repealed that law as they are allowed  to do and made it open to all. The muslims started to rip big chunks of rock from the inside and outside of the mosque, defiling it permanently and using these as weapons against anyone coming even close to the Temple Mount. The IDF should have used laser guided sonic weapons to kill the muslims holed up inside the mosque and then taken full control. When the waqf complained told them they were incapable of looking after the Holiest relic in the world and to get of Jewish territory.

 EVERYTHING IS AS A RESULT OF ISLAMONAZI VIOLENCE, LIES, BLOOD LIBELS AND TERRORISM BECAUSE THEY CANT GET THEIR OWN WAY AND RULE THE WORLD. AS EVERY DAY GOES PAST WITHOUT A VICTORY FOR ISLAM THEY GET MORE AGITATED AND AGGRESSIVE


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## Onyx (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.



The Dead Sea Scrolls should definitely not be owned by the government of Israel.

They should be liberated and turned over to a reputable NGO.


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## Moonglow (Nov 12, 2016)

Why do the Palestinian's want the Dead Sea Scrolls, they can't read Hebrew...


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## Phoenall (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 LIAR as the ruling is that no Jew can enter the area believed ti be the repository of the Holy of Holies, not the Temple mount. As that place is not known the Rabbinate defined an area that takes in the al aqsa mosque as being of limits to Jews other than the priests.
 Yes you are correct and this is why the arab muslims go looking for trouble all the time, then whinge and whine when Israel responds to their violence and terrorism by killing a few hundred engaged in these acts contrary to actual International laws detailed in the Geneva conventions. The land is Jewish and has been since 1922 when the legal owners granted it to them under international law as their National Home. The same international law that give Jordan to the arab muslims.


 NOW WHY DO YOU SUPPORT ONE HALF OF THE INTERNATIONAL LAW AND NOT THE OTHER ? IS IT BECAUSE IT IS JEWS INVOLVED GETTING SOMETHING YOU DONT WANT THEM TO HAVE ?


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## Shusha (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> You got your answer from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who stated "I want to clarify, we strictly keep to the status quo on the Temple Mount."



Again, no one is arguing that Israel is voluntarily keeping the status quo on the Temple Mount.  What I am asking you is whether or not you feel that it is morally correct for only ONE faith to have access to a Holy Place.  And whether or not you feel that using violence to prevent others from accessing their own Holy Place is morally acceptable.  

But you are just going to dodge this.  Again.


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## Phoenall (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Since Jews are forbidden by ruling of the Chief Rabbinate to set foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade, it follows that only those who want trouble seek to change this status quo.
> ...








 Not just morally but also ethically and legally wrong, but then it is only the " filthy Jews " so it does not matter in his eyes


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## Phoenall (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 But which status quo is that ?


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## Shusha (Nov 12, 2016)

Also notice that keeping to the status quo does not prevent violent intifadas from the tantruming Muslims who can not stand to have the filthy Jews get too close to them.


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## Phoenall (Nov 12, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> ...







 Then red square and the Kremlin should also be liberated and handed over to an NGO


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## Phoenall (Nov 12, 2016)

Moonglow said:


> Why do the Palestinian's want the Dead Sea Scrolls, they can't read Hebrew...







 To start a fire in one of the churches so they can blame the Jews ?


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You got your answer from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who stated "I want to clarify, we strictly keep to the status quo on the Temple Mount."
> ...


I cannot express an opinion on the morality of Jewish doctrine which forbids Jews from setting foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade.


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## Phoenall (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
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> > Eloy said:
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 You already have and were shouted down for getting it wrong based on what you gleaned from the hate sites.


 SO YOU DODGED THE QUESTION AS EXPECTED


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## Shusha (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> I cannot express an opinion on the morality of Jewish doctrine which forbids Jews from setting foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade.



Well, of course you can't, since there IS no such doctrine. 

Can you express an opinion about the Muslim insistence that only they should have the privilege of fully accessing the Holy Place?  And the Muslim use of violence to uphold this?


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot express an opinion on the morality of Jewish doctrine which forbids Jews from setting foot in the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade.
> ...


I'm sorry but I will not disregard the opinion of the Chief Rabbinate whose clear and binding teaching was delivered on 10th June 1967.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Eloy said:
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So from now on will you accept the rulings of the zionist rabbinate ? 
Or just the rulings that suit your POV...

Here's a new ruling calling for pilgrimage and explaining the right way to purify, so it's done with respect to the holiest place of the Jews...you know unlike the arabs who play soccer there and destroy their mosque each time they feel like rioting.


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## Shusha (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> I'm sorry but I will not disregard the opinion of the Chief Rabbinate whose clear and binding teaching was delivered on 10th June 1967.



There are two very distinct responses I can make to this.  

First, and most importantly, I notice you again dodged the actual question.  It is transparently an avoidance.  You are perfectly aware that there is only one moral response to the question.  Else you would have stated your belief, either way, early on in the conversation.  Your reluctance to simply say, "yeah, hey, there is only one moral response to this question" means that your answer is the immoral one and you are unable to justify your immoral response in a social setting which includes multi-ethnic and multi-religious people.  Which means, of course, that your immoral response is unjustifiable.  And, you are entirely correct, the Muslim insistence that ONLY they have rights to pray and worship and celebrate their faith on a site which is, at best shared and at worst, STOLEN, is immoral.  The fact that they use violence to impose their immoral belief is all the more appalling and disgusting.  

Second, you reveal your utterly inadequate knowledge of the Jewish faith and how the Jewish people and their leaders make halakhic decisions. There is a range of thought on how to proceed now that the Jewish people once again have sovereignty on the Temple Mount, all of it halakhically based, whether on Maimondes' understanding of "And you shall build me a sanctuary" or on Rashi's understanding of "The Sanctuary, oh G-d, which your hands have established".  No one disagrees that there is only a small portion of the Temple Mount upon which it is prohibited to be present, depending on one's understanding of whether the Shechinah is still present and to what degree.  The question is only what to do until we determine where that space is.  Given that we can be sure, in many places, where it is NOT, there is plenty of space for the Jewish people to enter the space and pray and worship.  And indeed, as previously posted, Israeli law upholds the right of people to freedom of worship. 

Keep in mind as well, that all decisions having to do with the presence of the Jewish people on the Mount are political decisions as well as religious ones.  The Jewish people are not free to make decisions based solely on religious faith.  They are forced to deal with the hissy fits of an overwhelming number of Muslims who are willing to both die and murder people (read: Jews) to enforce their immoral belief.


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I am unaware of any reason to disrespect Chief Rabbinate.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Great I'll remember that! So now that we've put this thing aside you can answer Shusha's questions


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry but I will not disregard the opinion of the Chief Rabbinate whose clear and binding teaching was delivered on 10th June 1967.
> ...


I am puzzled by your hostility and your determination to put words in my mouth. Everyone except trouble-makers accepts the teaching of the Chief Rabbinate.



Shusha said:


> Second, you reveal your utterly inadequate knowledge of the Jewish faith and how the Jewish people and their leaders make halakhic decisions. There is a range of thought on how to proceed now that the Jewish people once again have sovereignty on the Temple Mount, all of it halakhically based, whether on Maimondes' understanding of "And you shall build me a sanctuary" or on Rashi's understanding of "The Sanctuary, oh G-d, which your hands have established".  No one disagrees that there is only a small portion of the Temple Mount upon which it is prohibited to be present, depending on one's understanding of whether the Shechinah is still present and to what degree.  The question is only what to do until we determine where that space is.  Given that we can be sure, in many places, where it is NOT, there is plenty of space for the Jewish people to enter the space and pray and worship.  And indeed, as previously posted, Israeli law upholds the right of people to freedom of worship.


I can read English and I understand the decision of the Chief Rabbinate. At the same time, I am not and do not claim to be an expert on Jewish dogma.



Shusha said:


> Keep in mind as well, that all decisions having to do with the presence of the Jewish people on the Mount are political decisions as well as religious ones.  The Jewish people are not free to make decisions based solely on religious faith.  They are forced to deal with the hissy fits of an overwhelming number of Muslims who are willing to both die and murder people (read: Jews) to enforce their immoral belief.


For the sake of peaceful coexistence, I believe it is best to maintain the status quo on the Al Aqsa Mosque and its Esplanade.


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I have answered questions to the best of my ability.


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## Shusha (Nov 12, 2016)

So, when the Chief Rabbinate decides it will re-build the Temple on the Mount, you will, of course, support the Jewish peoples sole and exclusive right to their Holy Place, yes?


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> So, when the Chief Rabbinate decides it will re-build the Temple on the Mount, you will, of course, support the Jewish peoples sole and exclusive right to their Holy Place, yes?


Jerusalem is not a sole and exclusive place for Jews. In a strict sense, Jerusalem belongs to the three great faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In a broader sense, it is a city that belongs to everyone.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Jews who want to pray at their holiest site, while others are cursing, shouting and spitting at them are the trouble makers???

Not those who score goals on the mount, systematically destroy archeology at site, turn their mosque into an ammunition storage and throw stones at the people praying at the wailing wall?

If THIS is "peaceful coexistence", I guess your version of peace is by submission like the word "Salam" means in Arabic (the opposite of Hebrew "Shalom" which means wholeness, perfection).


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I know about Palestinian children being killed by the Israeli Defense Force when they play football but that is another topic.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > So, when the Chief Rabbinate decides it will re-build the Temple on the Mount, you will, of course, support the Jewish peoples sole and exclusive right to their Holy Place, yes?
> ...



And both christians as well as muslims have it plainly stated in their writings that Jews will gather again in zion , it's their land plain and simple.


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## Hollie (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Ah, yes. Those Pal'istanian children. They are cheap currency for propagandists.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



You forgot to clarify in the beginning "I only want to know..."
So do you want to know the whole picture, or just find more ways to steal the Jewish heritage? You know like they did with christianity and islam invention.


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I never heard of such a thing.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Here just a few examples:

Isaiah 11:11-12
Isaiah 66:7-8
Ezekiel 37:21-22
Zechariah 8:4-8
Ezekiel 36:34-35
*Sura 5:21*
*Sura 17:104
sura 2:40
sura 2:47
sura 2:83
*


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


None of this is from the New Testament.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



If you weren't biased you could find those too, easily, but it just shows more the "I only want to know about" part about you.

Wanna play trivia- fine:
Acts 1:6-8
Matthew 5:17-18


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## Hollie (Nov 12, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Ah. I get it. You were making a joke.


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## rylah (Nov 12, 2016)

So someone who actually knows less than a school child about the cultures being discussed, argues that the Jewish writings should be transferred to muslims...

1. A song, a psalm by Asaph.
2. O God, do not be silent; do not be quiet and do not be still, O God.
3. For behold, Your enemies are in uproar, and those who hate You have raised their head.
4. They plot deviously against Your nation, and conspire against those sheltered by You.
5. They say, *"Come, let us sever them from nationhood, and the name of Israel will be remembered no more.”*
6. For they conspire with a unanimous heart, they made a covenant against You...
13. who said, *"Let us inherit the dwellings of God for ourselves.”*


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## jillian (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> 
> The audacity of it is shocking.
> 
> Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.



their "heritage" is in jordan. but jordan doesn't want them either


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I am no expert on Biblical exegesis but I will have a go.
*Acts 1:6-8* This appears to be a foretelling by Joshua Ben Joseph that the Kingdom of Israel will be restored when the Holy Spirit will come upon His followers and they in turn will witness about Him throughout all of Jerusalem and all of Judea and Samaria. I suppose Christians believe this has already happened and understand the coming upon them of the Holy Spirit to mean the event of Pentecost followed by preaching that begins in Jerusalem and then spreads just as the Church has done. The "restoration of the Kingdom of Israel" is therefore to be taken to mean the Christian Church.
*Matthew 5:17-18* This says all the Jewish Law is fulfilled in Him. This has little bearing on the topic of this thread.


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## rhodescholar (Nov 12, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> 
> The audacity of it is shocking.
> 
> Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.



When you have no history, cultural identity, or legitimacy - you are forced to steal that from someone else.  They are not even a real people, they were conjured in a KGB lab.


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## Eloy (Nov 12, 2016)

rhodescholar said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> ...


Palestinians are recognized by everyone except the Israelis who wish they would disappear.


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## rylah (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



So are you trying to argue that the new testament nullified all the promises and covenants given to the Jews, in the eyes of the christians? 

Did G-d first promise the land to Abraham,then Isaac, then Jacob (Israel), then Moses, then Joshua, then Isaiah, then Jeremiah, Ezekiel and many others...and suddenly changed his mind, broke his promise or worse LIED?


Anyway you go great length to avoid answering simple questions...


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## Shusha (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Jerusalem is not a sole and exclusive place for Jews.



Really?  Why not?


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## RoccoR (Nov 13, 2016)

Shusha, et al,

Somethings are meant, within the human fabric of belief, to be shared.



Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Jerusalem is not a sole and exclusive place for Jews.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

As you all know, the absolute common thread between the believers in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is that they all worship the very same Devine Supreme Being (DSB).

In the great leap from polytheism to monotheism gave much of the world cultures these three man-made and structured systems of rituals, practices and spiritual beliefs that we call today, a religion.  The entire Temple Mount-/-Haram esh-Sharif is a place dedicated to the worship of the God of Abraham (The Supreme Being). 

The dispute between the religious constructs is not divinely inspired; but is a political outcome based on the man-made interpretations.  The DCB, it it is actually the creator of all that can be surveyed through Devine energy, is simplistically eternal perfection; as opposed to any of the three great religions which are anything but simple.  A DSB with the infinite knowledge, unlimited power and energy, and especially holding the characteristic of omnipresence, does not need such a location as the Temple Mount-/-Haram esh-Sharif.  That is a human convenience.  The _(all loving)_ DSB is just as accessible from my basement, my defensive position in Vietnam _(many a time I've heard people speak to the DSB under fire)_, and even the Presidential Palace in Baghdad.

*IF* the DSB is the very same, and each of the conflicting parties hold a belief and reverence for the very same DSB, *THEN* what sense does it make to suggest that the site is exclusive to any worshiper?

It is a misinterpretation --- and maybe a bit of arrogance --- that one side or the other would claim exclusive rights of worship on this sacred ground.  

MostRespectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 Deflection because you are on the ropes and in the corner


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 NO YOU HAVE DEFLECTED, HEDGED, DERAILED AND MANIPULATED RESPONCES RATHER THAN GIVE A REAL ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS POSED.


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > So, when the Chief Rabbinate decides it will re-build the Temple on the Mount, you will, of course, support the Jewish peoples sole and exclusive right to their Holy Place, yes?
> ...







But only when it suits you to take away the Jews rights. Not that long ago you were claiming that it was purely islamic and the Jews had no rights to be there. 
The concept you refer to was destroyed and withdrawn the day the arab league invaded the mandate of palestine and the UN refused to intervene in the theft of Jerusalem. When Jordan were driven back across the river and then gave up all rights to Jerusalem it reverted to Israeli control


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 GET IT RIGHT you know only what the islamonazi propaganda machine wants you to know, so they miss out the facts that the boys died 3 days before the explosions when hamas murdered them for having fatah fathers. As you say that is another topic


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 Of course you haven't as your imam/commisar has not told you the whole truth, just the little bit that counts to them


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 So does this mean it is not real or something. You cant claim that Christianity and islam are based on Judaism and them deny 80% of the base that Christianity and islam are founded on


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 Because you read them as a muslim would, and dont take in the whole context of surrounding lines to clarify what they mean.


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## Phoenall (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...









 LIAR   as very few of the surrounding nations recognise the palestinians as anything other than terrorists and violent criminals


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## rhodescholar (Nov 13, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Palestinians are recognized by everyone except the Israelis who wish they would disappear.



"Everyone"? Like the 57 filth muslim countries?  And the scumbag feckless Euros trying to curry brownie points with their large muslim immigrant populations?  Sure they are.


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## Shusha (Nov 13, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Shusha, et al,
> 
> Somethings are meant, within the human fabric of belief, to be shared.
> 
> ...



Ah.  I think my comment may have been interpreted as a belief that Jerusalem and the Temple Mount should be an exclusive place for Jews.  That was not at all my intent.  My intent was a trap for Eloy who seems to have a problem with the Temple Mount being an exclusive place for Jews yet no problem with the Temple Mount being an exclusive place for Muslims.  I was just going to point out his hypocrisy.

On the contrary my belief aligns with this:

_Also a gentile who is not of Your people Israel, but will come from a distant land, for Your Name's sake -- for they will hear of Your great Name and Your strong hand and Your outstretched arm -- and will come and pray toward this Temple -- may You hear from Heaven, the foundation of Your abode, and act according to all that the gentile calls out to You, so that all the peoples of the world may know Your Name to fear You as [does] Your people Israel, and to know that Your Name is proclaimed upon this Temple that I have built._


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## Eloy (Nov 13, 2016)

rylah said:


> ...
> So are you trying to argue that the new testament nullified all the promises and covenants given to the Jews, in the eyes of the christians? ...


Yes; I believe this is traditional Christian dogma.


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## Eloy (Nov 13, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Jerusalem is not a sole and exclusive place for Jews.
> ...


I have already answered this question.


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## Eloy (Nov 13, 2016)

Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha, et al,
> ...


Perhaps when posting, instead of trying to trap other people, you were to write what you mean, you will not come across as someone who believes in the superiority of your religion over others' with unique rights.


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## Shusha (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Perhaps when posting, instead of trying to trap other people, you were to write what you mean, you will not come across as someone who believes in the superiority of your religion over others' with unique rights.



I have never written anything which even remotely, even the tiniest bit, suggests the superiority of my religion over another's.  Ever.  I know this for certain because I do not believe that my religion is superior to other religious faiths.  (Though obviously I find great value for myself, personally, in my faith).

So clearly, your idea that I believe my religion is superior to other's comes from elsewhere and not from my own statements of beliefs.  I would suggest that it comes from a longstanding anti-semitic canard.

Should we talk about unique rights?  Well, of course we should, but you will avoid it just as you have avoided all my other questions.  

*Why should the people practicing the faith of Islam have the unique right of access to their most Holy Place and to our most Holy Place?  Shouldn't Holy Places be shared?  Why or why not?  *


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## Phoenall (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...









 And this in turn was nullified by islamic dogma, and the muslims now claim that God gave them the world and they have to murder and pillage until they make it come true.

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING AND DEFENDING, WHOLESALE ISLAMONAZI SLAUGHTER AND MURDER OF THE INNOCENTS THAT REFUSE TO CINVERT.


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## Phoenall (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 No you deflected away from the question


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## Phoenall (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...









 Setting traps to show the other persons real views is a valid procedure . And you were caught proving that you dont want to allow the Jews to exist anywhere. You are denying their human, civil, religious and legal rights because of your nazi dogma and cant see that you have been brainwashed by a succession of contollers


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## rylah (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



It's simple, for the "second coming" to happen, Jews have to govern Jerusalem.
The christian bible changed the text that was taken from the Tanakh, however they still decided to include those passages that gave clear title of the land to the Jews (as shown before).

Anyway, it's the muslims that demand the ancient Jewish scrolls, and the Koran too gives the title of the land to the Jews.


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## Eloy (Nov 14, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps when posting, instead of trying to trap other people, you were to write what you mean, you will not come across as someone who believes in the superiority of your religion over others' with unique rights.
> ...


I have already told you that the _status quo_ will be honored by the religious as well as the political Israeli authorities. In this instance I think ethics has prevailed.


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## Shusha (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> I have already told you that the _status quo_ will be honored by the religious as well as the political Israeli authorities. In this instance I think ethics has prevailed.



How is it ethical for only ONE religion to have access to the Temple Mount which is, at best, a shared sacred site and at worst, a stolen sacred site?

How it is the status quo in any way ethical?


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## Shusha (Nov 14, 2016)

Let me be absolutely clear.  Anything which prevents people from accessing or worshiping freely according to their religious faith is unethical.  Anything which gives exclusive access of a shared (cough cough) Holy Place to only ONE religious faith is unethical.  

The REASON why Israel and the world permits such an unethical status quo is because there are billions of Muslims in the world who will throw a hissy fit if they don't get their way.

And let me be REAL clear what I mean by "hissy fit" -- it would unleash a violent, murderous, killing-of-innocents jihad against Israel and the Jewish people.  It would start a global war.  It would raise a whole new generation or two or ten of ISIS followers.


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## Hossfly (Nov 14, 2016)

Lipush said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Lipush, it really is an amazing phenomenon to behold how when some posters find the USMB, right away they rush to this forum and shed their crocodile tears about the "Palestinians." overlooking naturally the hundreds of thousands of people who have been killed in the rest of the Middle East in recent years.  I guess it is par for the course for one of them to bring up "European shtetls"" when discussing the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Arafat must be rolling over in his grave and laughing hysterically over how many people really believe there were Palestinian people who in actuality were just called Arabs or Syrians.  The KGB  taught Arafat well.

Defining Palestine and the Palestinians - Discover the Networks


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## Hossfly (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...


I wonder if Eloy is quite OK with this going ooing on?  Can you imagine people seeing something like this while visiting the Vatican?

 
Does anyone think Eloy can give us a good answer as to why Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran even once (a night journey in a dream  on a magic horse to some far-off place not even named is not what someone would call a fact) and is mentioned hundreds of times in the Bible.

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem


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## Hossfly (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...


Moshe Dayan made the biggest mistake after the Jews captured Jerusalem in 1967.

Moshe Dayan’s colossal blunder - The Jerusalem Connection Report


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## Eloy (Nov 14, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I have already told you that the _status quo_ will be honored by the religious as well as the political Israeli authorities. In this instance I think ethics has prevailed.
> ...


I know now that you mean to trap me so all I can say is that it is ethical to do what pleases everyone which is rare enough in such a fractious area. There is enough which divides the Israelis and Palestinians without attempting to add to the list.


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## Shusha (Nov 14, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Its not a trap if you are comfortable in your own belief system.


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## Phoenall (Nov 15, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...










 But not by the various islamonazi authorities, who see everything as theirs because their false prophet told them it was.

 Explain again why you support and defend the islamonazi stance that Jerusalem belongs to islam ?


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## Phoenall (Nov 15, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...






 So all you have is a non answer rather than tell the truth and admit that as far as you are concerned the Jews have no rights


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## Shusha (Nov 15, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> So all you have is a non answer rather than tell the truth and admit that as far as you are concerned the Jews have no rights



Its worse than that.  He is saying not only that Jews have no rights -- but that Jews are happy being oppressed and that the oppression of Jews pleases everyone.


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## Challenger (Nov 18, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> 
> The audacity of it is shocking.
> 
> Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.



Seems a reasonable request to me, the scrolls were found in what was then considered Jordan, and have since been stolen during the Zionist conquest of 1967, so they are technically loot or plunder, and Jordan has every right to ask for them back.

Oh, it's the Iraqis that could have a claim on the Talmud, seeing as it's a plagiarised rehash of Ancient Babylonian beliefs.


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## Shusha (Nov 18, 2016)

The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes.  It must be under the control of the culture which created it.  Else it serves no purpose.


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## Hossfly (Nov 18, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> ...




If you are going to take that attitude, can you show us where people in Great Britain are clamoring to return this to the proper people?  A  digital piece of it should not be sufficient.

Prince Charles warns of cultural destruction on UAE visit - BBC News

As is stated in the article:

"The original Koran fragment, at least 1,370 years old, remains in the University of Birmingham".


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## Eloy (Nov 18, 2016)

Shusha said:


> The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes.  It must be under the control of the culture which created it.  Else it serves no purpose.


Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.


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## Shusha (Nov 18, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.



I assure you the Jewish people are not extinct.


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## Eloy (Nov 18, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.
> ...


It is believed by scholars that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls became extinct about the first century CE.


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## Shusha (Nov 18, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



It is believed by scholars (and reasonable people) that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls wa a Jewish sect, living in Judea.


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## Eloy (Nov 18, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Yes; it was once upon a time. It became extinct. The Christian sect which became a great religion had its origins in the same vicinity about then.


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## Hollie (Nov 18, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes.  It must be under the control of the culture which created it.  Else it serves no purpose.
> ...


Uh, obviously not. From the Taliban destroying Buddhist artifacts in Afghanistan to ISIS destroying the city of Palmyra in Syria to the Arabs-Moslems (posing as Pal'istanians) desecrating the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem.... Are we seeing a common thread that links those who have a record of desecration of cultural history? 

It's quite obvious that the UN is unable and unwilling to take the steps necessary to prevent a specific politico-religious ideology from destroying the cultural heritage of others.


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## Challenger (Nov 21, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



There's a difference between legaly buying artifacts and looting them in wartime.


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## Challenger (Nov 21, 2016)

Shusha said:


> The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes.  It must be under the control of the culture which created it.  Else it serves no purpose.


Zionism didn't create the Dead Sea Scrolls


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## Challenger (Nov 21, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
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A sect now extinct.


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## rylah (Nov 21, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



The Phillistines are extinct, no one today represents their culture.
However the modern Jews are the representatives of those Judean sects, observing culture and rituals which were practiced long before that sect.


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## Eloy (Nov 21, 2016)

rylah said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


You are mistaken; the Qumran sect is believed to have been outside Jewish orthodoxy and it perished. The Christian sect, on the other hand, flourished.


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## rylah (Nov 21, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Orthodoxy or not the rituals modern Jews are practicing today practicing came long before any orthodoxy.
No christian sect flourished, they perished under the Roman prosecutions. All we have today is a Roman pagan sect of Paul- nothing in common with the christians you bring up.

Anyway it's not the christians who demand the scrolls, those are arab muslims calling themselves fillastines, who have decades long history of destroying anything not muslim.


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## Eloy (Nov 21, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Sorry to inform you but Christianity grew from a small Jewish sect in Jerusalem. Christians see in the Dead Sea Scrolls the writings of their forebears.


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## Hossfly (Nov 21, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


The bottom line here is that none of the Muslims are clamoring for the  ancient Koran fragment held  in a British university, but since the Jews have something written by their ancestors way back in time, the Muslims can't stand for them to possess it.   Apparently you also can't stand for the Jews to have something either.


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## rylah (Nov 21, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



And the original christians who spoke Hebrew and Arameic had more in common with the Jews rather than Roman CATHOLICS and Greek Orthodoxy. The only thing christian in the Paul sect is the name.

However it still has nothing to do with the Arab muslim claim, you just dance around not to answer uncomfortable questions.


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## Eloy (Nov 21, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


The Dead Sea Scrolls were purloined from a museum in Occupied Palestine.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 21, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



What point are you trying to make?  That the Dead Sea Scrolls should be housed in the Vatican?  Sorry, that makes no sense.  Although there were similarities between Christianity and the Essene sect of Judaism, which created the Scrolls, ultimately the Scrolls came from a JEWISH sect, albeit now defunct.  As far as I know, the Scrolls are remnants of the Books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible.  None of the New Testament Books are included in that discovery.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 21, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



They came from a cave in the Judean desert.


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## Shusha (Nov 21, 2016)

Challenger said:


> A sect now extinct.



Its the sect which is extinct -- not the culture which created the sect.  The sect used the very same literature and written works that the Jewish people use today.  That is the value of the documents to the Jewish people.  That is the clear line between the Jewish people today and the people of that sect.  Its ridiculous to argue otherwise.


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## Shusha (Nov 21, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They came from a cave in the Judean desert.



They came from a cave in the Judean desert during a time when Jordan illegally occupied Israel.

And the reason they were in the Palestine Archaeological Museum in the first place is because Jordan did not have the funds to purchase the scrolls, nor the resources, both financial and otherwise, to prevent further deterioration and thus preserve them.


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## Shusha (Nov 21, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> What point are you trying to make?  That the Dead Sea Scrolls should be housed in the Vatican?  Sorry, that makes no sense.  Although there were similarities between Christianity and the Essene sect of Judaism, which created the Scrolls, ultimately the Scrolls came from a JEWISH sect, albeit now defunct.  As far as I know, the Scrolls are remnants of the Books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible.  None of the New Testament Books are included in that discovery.



The scrolls were written at a time when Christianity had not yet developed and can not, therefore, be Christian.  Pre-Christian, but that would obviously make them Jewish.


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## rylah (Nov 21, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



And those JEWS who were the original christians are long gone, centuries before the Romans decided to STEAL Jewish scriptures in order to fuse them with Roman and Greek paganism. 
The only thing common between the original christian JEWS and today's catholics are the stolen Jewish scriptures. But you of course claim those are null and void...so basically NOTHING.


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## Shusha (Nov 21, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Zionism didn't create the Dead Sea Scrolls



Just another ridiculous attempt to disconnect the Jewish people from our past and history.


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## rylah (Nov 21, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes.  It must be under the control of the culture which created it.  Else it serves no purpose.
> ...



Of course it didn't, neither did PA or Hamas- Jews did.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 21, 2016)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > What point are you trying to make?  That the Dead Sea Scrolls should be housed in the Vatican?  Sorry, that makes no sense.  Although there were similarities between Christianity and the Essene sect of Judaism, which created the Scrolls, ultimately the Scrolls came from a JEWISH sect, albeit now defunct.  As far as I know, the Scrolls are remnants of the Books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible.  None of the New Testament Books are included in that discovery.
> ...



In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity.  But it was pre-Christian.


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## Shusha (Nov 21, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity.  But it was pre-Christian.



Sure.  The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea.  The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.


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## Eloy (Nov 21, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Yes; the Vatican is a much safer place to keep the Dead Sea Scrolls than Jerusalem.


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## Eloy (Nov 21, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


The Israelis got their hands on the Scrolls when they captured the West Bank, including East Jerusalem in 1967.


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## Hossfly (Nov 21, 2016)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity.  But it was pre-Christian.
> ...


An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah.  When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying  to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling.  If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their  heritage.  I would be willing to bet that the  anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban.  No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.


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## Eloy (Nov 21, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


You're just trying to justify more theft by those who already STOLE and RAPED enough of the Jewish heritage.

Here's an idea- let's take ALL of world artifacts of all nations and place them in Antarctica- 'cause it's the "safest". Let's move the Vatican library, statues and the pope there, further away from Catholics, you know 'cause catholics seem to endanger their heritage by taking part in too many wars....


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


The English have a similar idea as yours except they would like to have all the world's treasures in the British Museum.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Forgive me but your anti-Palestinian tone prevents me from answering.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



The idea of taking others' heritage is YOURS in this discussion, we weren't talking about the British.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Another convenient running away from simple questions.
In other words you have nothing....Just don't let the Jews have their heritage.

Do you have ANYTHING related to to the OP?


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?



The Temple Mount Sifting Project was revealed some priceless treasures.  Its makes one want to weep with knowing so much was torn apart and destroyed.  All of the volunteers who dedicate their time to this project are a blessing.  And under the careful guardianship of the Jewish people, priceless artifacts from all eras and of all faiths are being found, rescued, preserved and protected.  

Obviously the Arab Muslims are not responsible caretakers.  And no priceless Jewish artifacts should be given over to their keeping.


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## Challenger (Nov 22, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



The bottom line, as you put it, is that the scrolls were looted not bought. If the Zionists want them so much they can offer a fair price and negotiate a settlement, and if that's not possible they should return the scrolls to their rightful owners.


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## Challenger (Nov 22, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


...which was part of Jordan at the time.


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## Challenger (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



No they don't. They practice Rabbinical Judaism, not Temple Judaism. How many animals do modern Jewish people sacrifice to their deity, for example? Do they still stone people to death?


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## Challenger (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?
> ...


Why obviously? Palestinians looked after the scrolls for 20 years and made them available to scholars from all over the world.


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## Challenger (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Zionism didn't create the Dead Sea Scrolls
> ...


What past? What history? You mean the made up Zionist mythology that you push with such enthusiasm? Modern Jewish people are part of a religious group with little to no connection to Palestine other than the fact that for a while Jerusalem was the cult centre.

Most Judeans were never "exiled" by the Romans (who, incidentally, did a thorough job of exterminating the Jewish religious rebel fanatics they came across), they remained and eventually converted to Christianity, then Islam. The real Judeans are the native Palestinians ethnically cleansed by the European Zionist colonists, or living under their brutal occupation.


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## Hollie (Nov 22, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


Funny stuff and typically befuddled for the flaming Jew hater. You acknowledge the Jewish connection to Jerusalem and in the same confused attempt at constructing a coherent sentence, try to deny that connection. 

Really, sweetie. Your Internet gee-had is a bust.


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## RoccoR (Nov 22, 2016)

Challenger, Shusha, RYLAH, FOREVERYOUNG436, HOSSFLY, ELOY, et al,

There are a couple of things we glean here, in this discussion.

There are those who would believe anything that would further the anti-Israeli cause.
There are those who would believe that ancient artifacts written _(predominately)_ in Hebrew and Aramaic _(with a small percentage written in other languages)_ have no common source within the developing Jewish Culture.  As if Hebrew was principle language of the Arab at between 200 BC and 200 AD when the bulk of the scrolls were created.  
There were found Books of Deuteronomy and Isaiah, as well as Psalms attributed to King David _(Humm, just imagine - I'm hard pressed to associate King David with being an Arab or zionist myth)_ and Joshua.  Are they not early Key Jewish Personalities?
What was the name of David's Kingdom?  (I forget!)  

There are those who would ignore the discovery of ancient Hebrew text _(like The Isaiah Scroll - making it a bit of a mystery, but not Arab)_ that are a millennium older than any other known copy.



Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I am still looking for actual evidence that would support the claim that the discovery of these artifacts, which demonstrate a connection to the present day Jewish Culture, are "Zionist Mythology."  Zionism was established as a political platform in mid-19th Century; most closely associated with Theodor Herzl, and the re-constitution of the Jewish National Home.  The mid-20th Century discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls would seem to rule-out any Mythology associated with the Independence of Israel.

Those that rewrite the history of the Middle East, are unlikely to be convinced by any facts or discoveries.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


There is no mention of "balestinians" in the OP. Do you have spellcheck, I wonder.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Just another ridiculous attempt to disconnect the Jewish people from our past and history.
> ...



Jerusalem has been the Jewish people's "cult centre" for three thousand years.  It remains the Jewish people's "cult centre" today and will be for the foreseeable future.  G-d willing, it will be the Jewish "cult centre" for at least another three thousand years.


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## mudwhistle (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.
> 
> The audacity of it is shocking.
> 
> Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.


They can demand in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills first.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Oh my.  You DO know what the Temple Mount Sifting Project IS, don't you?

It is nine tons of "debris" which was removed from an irreplaceable thousands-years-old archaeological site containing hundreds of thousands of objects, all of which are now out-of-context and many which may have been intact and have now been destroyed.  The information lost is staggering.  

Do you really believe that the destruction of a precious ancient archaeological site isn't OBVIOUSLY poor caretakership?

Speaking specifically of the scrolls, their mishandling was also significant -- from them being "restored" and held together with adhesive tape, to sealing them in manila envelopes, to mildew growth -- which resulted in the destruction or deterioration of many fragments.  It wasn't until Israel became caretakers of the scrolls that their deterioration was arrested.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



*So is the fact that the Temple was destroyed makes Jews less Jewish?*

Jews today practice many rituals that were practiced before King David built the 1st Temple. We still put Teffilin and Tsitsit, circumcise on the 8th day, eat kosher blessing the food, put Mezuza on the door frame, keep Shabbas, Kippur, build Sukkos and many more of the commandments that were given to us by our Chief Rabbi Moses (centuries before the temple).

Jews still sacrifice (or pay to do so) 1 chicken per person before the Yom Kippur.

About stoning and other punishments- you don't know enough and have very shallow understanding of the subject (probably due to your christian upbringing). Jews rarely stoned anyone, it's not a short and simple process to judge a person for death sentence, a court in in Israel that would sentence to death once in 70 years- was called cruel.
Today it's impossible due to the fact that we don't have Sanhedrin.

You clearly have no clue, if you want argue about Judaism at least study a book.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



So you have nothing and unable to argue or answer anything in a straight manner, then grasp at the last straw of grammar of a language you have no idea of.

Just go and ask an Arab in the ME to say "*P*alestine"  or "*P*eople"...just don't be too amazed at the fact that you were fooled, because they cannot pronounce their country's name.

Unlike Arabic, Hebrew and Latin have a "p" in the alphabet, which proves a lot, but that's another subject.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Lots of people use their own pronunciation for their countries rather than the English and we do not mock them. The Spanish say España. Ask a Spaniard to say Spain and many cannot because Spanish words that begin with an S have an E sound before it.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



But they can at least pronounce the S sound.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Did you know that Filipinos cannot pronounce "The Philippines"? You see, they have no sound for the letter F.
I hate to say this but your whole attitude in this shows your own lack of education.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Yes but Spain is called Espana because of Spanish people, and it's not that they cannot pronounce the letter "s" at all, they just add a vowel before it.
On the other hand Palestine is called so because of Romans who took the name from Hebrew, and Arabs just cant pronounce it even relatively close. BTW "palestine" is "the land of invaders" in ancient Hebrew


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Again do you have anything on the subject?
When are you going to answer the questions you derail from every time?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 22, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Challenger, Shusha, RYLAH, FOREVERYOUNG436, HOSSFLY, ELOY, et al,
> 
> There are a couple of things we glean here, in this discussion.
> 
> ...



Excellent post.  The majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls are in Hebrew--the language of the Jewish People with only a few in Aramaic (the language of the Talmud), and in Greek.  All of the books of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), with the sole exception of Esther, are represented.  The Dead Sea Scrolls are not in Arabic, nor do they contain the Quran or even the New Testament.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


I answer every polite question.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Oh the tender soul...

So how do you feel about the palestinians bulldozing the ancient artifacts on the Temple Mount?
How do you feel about Jordan taking ancient Jewish tomb stones from Jerusalem and building roads with them, and hotels on them?


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


If "Temple Mount" takes capital letters then so does Palestinians.
However, I wrote earlier in this thread that desecration of historic importance is wrong and such sites ought to be respected and this goes for Jewish tombstones as well.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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I speak Hebrew and the word 'palestine' came from a Hebrew verb which means- to invade. I don't think a verb deserves a capital letter.
On the other hand Temple Mount is the sacred place for the Jews, and an ancient historic site that deserves full respect and awe. 

So how do you agree with the Romans' desecration, destruction and theft of ancient ritual tools like the Menorah? Should the Jews demand Vatican to return them?


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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That was too long ago to worry about.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Oh I'll remember that answer...

It's funny you say so in a thread about historic artifacts..."they're too ancient to worry about" is that what you're saying?


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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When you find a way to prosecute some long-dead centurion for a war crime, let us know.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Actually i think i get you- this issue has nothing to do with you personally, it's not your heritage, not your language or culture, therefore you can stand aside and play judge with other people's treasures just to be amused.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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You are correct in the sense that I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim which means I can have a measure of objectivity.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Don't care about any roman, just return the national symbols of our nation and our Holy Temple.

But you know what- Jews have every right to demand reparation from the Vatican for centuries of theft, prosecution and later support of Nazism.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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I believe you have lost the plot.


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


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No advocating for Vatican doesn't make you anymore objective, quiet the opposite. It makes you an advocate for those who actually RAPED the Jewish culture, scripture, flesh, and still hold the artifacts they've stolen from the Temple.
A clear pattern in sight.


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## Hossfly (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Good that you feel that way.  Now you can go to others forums covering the Middle East and tell the readers the names of the many things which were destroyed  or you can park yourself on this thread and show the readers that the Jews are not involved with anything destroyed in the other Middle East countries  so why should you bother..


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

rylah said:


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You do your cause no good by seeming to be anti-Catholic.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> You are correct in the sense that I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim which means I can have a measure of objectivity.



Really?  So, objectively, which people should have caretakership of precious cultural artifacts?  That culture or another?

And, objectively, if a guardian fails to live up to standards of care, should they continue to act in that role?


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
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You write like someone who has a lot of experience on internet forums.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
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> > You are correct in the sense that I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim which means I can have a measure of objectivity.
> ...


As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.



Why?


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## rylah (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Why because I remind  uncomfortable history facts of Christianity in their relationship to Jews? Showing a clear pattern common to Muslims and Christians in relation to Jewish historic artifacts?


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
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> > As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.
> ...


Because of their associations with the area. For example, it is both ridiculous and insensitive to the current inhabitants if one were to transport the pyramids from Egypt to Nevada.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Why would it be insensitive?  What is the reason?  Remembering we are talking about intangible cultural heritage here with the Dead Sea Scrolls and not buildings.


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


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Right to possess artifacts should not depend on their portability, surely.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


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Answer the questions.


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## Phoenall (Nov 22, 2016)

Challenger said:


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 So you are saying that Jordan was wrong in the first place for claiming something that was the worlds to protect. The scrolls are accessible to all while under the care of the Israeli's, they were not when under the care of the arab muslims. How many have been destroyed while the arab muslims had them in their care, seeing as this is a normal activity for muslims.


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## Phoenall (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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> > The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes.  It must be under the control of the culture which created it.  Else it serves no purpose.
> ...










Then you have no problem in them taking over Mecca, Medina and America as the people that created those place are now extinct. Kick all the foriegn invaders out and hand the treasures back to the descendants of those that lived there before.

The descendants of the Jews who wrote the scrolls are very much alive and they are the only custodians that should be accepted


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


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If you ask one question at a time it would help.
You asked two questions before you went on to introduce a difference between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the pyramids of Egypt.
To get back to the questions, I wonder if I am right that it is really one question and the second one is added for clarification. That is how I read your post. You asked why I consider it insensitive to pilfer artifacts. I am not an expert in the preservation of precious artifacts so, as a layman, I believe artifacts and such treasures resonate with the people who have come after the artifacts' creators. Knowing that they were born in the same place as the treasures, in this case, the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were found in what is today the Occupied Palestinian West Bank and but for the occupation they would still be there. Occupation does not confer a right on the occupier to loot archaeological artifacts and I believe Israel was wrong to take them away. The custodians of the Dead Sea Scrolls should be the Palestinians. I accept that I am no expert.


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## Hossfly (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
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I take advantage of some of the different forums  available to us.  I don't attempt to park myself on  one thread.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> You asked two questions before you went on to introduce a difference between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the pyramids of Egypt.


 In point of fact, it was you who brought up the pyramids of Egypt. 



> To get back to the questions, I wonder if I am right that it is really one question and the second one is added for clarification.


 Not clarification, exactly.  But the two questions are related.  In particular it was intended to point out who might be invested in preserving a cultural heritage and who might be hostile to preserving a cultural heritage.



> You asked why I consider it insensitive to pilfer artifacts.


 I most certainly did not.  I asked why artifacts, specifically transportable artifacts (intangible cultural heritage), should be considered attached to a piece of dirt (or in this case a cave) when considering guardianship.  



> I am not an expert in the preservation of precious artifacts so, as a layman, I believe artifacts and such treasures resonate with the people who have come after the artifacts' creators.


  We agree.  The artifacts and treasure resonate very strongly with the people who came after.  The question is WHICH people?  

I do not know your background, but I am Scots/Irish.  My families have been living in the US and Canada for about 300 years.  All things Scots and Irish resonate with me.  I feel attached to them.  They are my history.  And even though my family has been living in Canada for hundreds of years, I do not feel especially attached to First Nations cultures.  Those cultures do not resonate deeply with me.  Why?  Because it is not my culture.  It is not my history.  There is nothing connecting us but a patch of land that we have both, at various times, live on.  That is not enough.  Nations come and go, political boundaries change.

And I don't for a second believe that Arab Muslim Palestinians resonate with ancient Jewish writings.  Instead, their hostility towards all things Jewish is quite apparent.  

Here are a few excerpts from the 2003 Convention for the Safe-Guarding of Intangible Cultural Heritage:

_*Recognizing* that the processes of globalization and social transformation, alongside the conditions they create for renewed dialogue among communities, also give rise, as does the phenomenon of intolerance, to grave threats of deterioration, disappearance and destruction of the intangible cultural heritage, in particular owing to a lack of resources for safeguarding such heritage,

*Recognizing* that communities, in particular indigenous communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals, play an important role in the production, safeguarding, maintenance and re-creation of the intangible cultural heritage, thus helping to enrich cultural diversity and human creativity,

...


The “intangible cultural heritage” means the practices, representations, expressions, knowledge, skills – as well as the instruments, objects, artifacts and cultural spaces associated therewith – that communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as part of their cultural heritage. This intangible cultural heritage, transmitted from generation to generation, is constantly recreated by communities and groups in response to their environment, their interaction with nature and their history, and provides them with a sense of identity and continuity, thus promoting respect for cultural diversity and human creativity. For the purposes of this Convention, consideration will be given solely to such intangible cultural heritage as is compatible with existing international human rights instruments, as well as with the requirements of mutual respect among communities, groups and individuals, and of sustainable development.

_
Notice the language used in this Convention:  the intangible cultural heritage belongs to communities.  It is transmitted from generation to generation within these communities.  It does not belong to political bodies or to States.  It belongs to the people who are interact with it, and pass it along and are continually re-creating it.  It is part of the people's LIVING culture.  

Tell me, in what way will the Arab Muslim Palestinians live this cultural legacy?  How will they pass it from generation to generation?  How will they interact with it?  How does it help them develop a sense of continuity with the past?  

Worse than that, given the Arab Muslim Palestinians open hostility towards Jewish history -- why would we believe that they are invested in preserving it, let alone cherishing it, living it, transferring it to future generations?


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## Eloy (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You asked two questions before you went on to introduce a difference between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the pyramids of Egypt.
> ...


Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect. 

It is brazen effrontery for the modern state of Israel to claim that it speaks or acts for all Jews, including Jews who live in other countries and continents. It does not.


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## montelatici (Nov 22, 2016)

The Palestinians, though they have converted to Christianity and Islam, are the offspring of the same people that were there when the scrolls were written.  The European Zionists that invaded and colonized Palestine have more right to them than the native people?


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect.
> 
> It is brazen effrontery for the modern state of Israel to claim that it speaks or acts for all Jews, including Jews who live in other countries and continents. It does not.



Ok.  Wow. 

#1.  And I don't know how I could possibly make this more clear without yelling.  Maybe I need to yell.  THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE NOT DEFUNCT NOR EXTINCT NOR AN ANCIENT AND IRRELEVANT PIECE OF HISTORY.  THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE A LIVING PEOPLE WITH A RICH, VIBRANT HISTORY AND A PROMISING FUTURE WITH A CLEAR CONTINUITY FROM THE MOST ANCIENT TIMES RIGHT UP TO THE PRESENT DAY.  THESE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE THE VERY SAME DEFINING LITERATURE AND RELIGIOUS TEXTS WE USE TODAY.  We clear, yet? 

#2.  The Arab and Muslim people have a shitty, shitty, shitty record of safe-guarding and caretaking the historical and religious cultural heritage of other cultures.  Come on!  Temple Mount Sifting Project!  The hell?!  They are destroying irreplaceable archaeological finds in order to deny the existence of the Jewish people's history.  And the Palestinians, through UNESCO, are ACTIVELY seeking to erase Jewish history and religious significance.  They are re-writing the truth in order to eliminate the Jewish people's rights to our own cultural heritage.  And you support this?  Why?  Why would you support this?

#3.  Israel absolutely has the right to act on behalf of the Jewish people everywhere when it comes to preserving and protecting our cultural heritage.  That was the entire POINT of creating our own Nation!  So that we could be protected.  Wow.  Are you that clueless?  Is France no longer permitted to speak for the French?  Is Japan no longer permitted to speak for the Japanese? 

But to ease your mind, let's ask.  Let's ask some of our Jewish members here who they would prefer to have caretakership over our ancient Jewish texts?  Hey, Hollie ,Roudy , rylah , irosie91 , SAYIT , MJB12741 , turzovka , (and please tag anyone I have forgotten):  Who would you rather have as guardian of the oldest known extant texts of our Torah -- Israel or the Palestinian Authority?  (I vote Israel, btw).


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians, though they have converted to Christianity and Islam, are the offspring of the same people that were there when the scrolls were written.  The European Zionists that invaded and colonized Palestine have more right to them than the native people?



The Palestinians (and by that you mean the Arab Muslim and Christian Palestinians), having converted to Christianity and to Islam, no longer have any but the most distant relationship to the Jewish Holy Books.  They rejected them then and they continue to reject them now.  In rejecting them, they have removed themselves from any claim to them.  

If you disagree with me, I demand you turn over all textual historical documents of the Christian and Muslim faiths to the Baha'i immediately.  If you do not agree to this -- you are nothing but a hypocrite.


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## Shusha (Nov 22, 2016)

And, Eloy , you have still failed to answer my question as to why intangible cultural history should be attached to land, rather than to people.


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## SAYIT (Nov 22, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people...



 You must think everyone here is as monumentally ignorant as you. The destruction of ancient Buddhist statues by Taliban "protectors"was not the only recent example of Muslim "care" of ancient artifacts. They are compelled by their "holly scriptures" to destroy all that is not Islam.
You are next.


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## SAYIT (Nov 22, 2016)

Shusha said:


> ...I don't know how I could possibly make this more clear without yelling.  Maybe I need to yell.  THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE NOT DEFUNCT NOR EXTINCT NOR AN ANCIENT AND IRRELEVANT PIECE OF HISTORY.  THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE A LIVING PEOPLE WITH A RICH, VIBRANT HISTORY AND A PROMISING FUTURE WITH A CLEAR CONTINUITY FROM THE MOST ANCIENT TIMES RIGHT UP TO THE PRESENT DAY.  THESE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE THE VERY SAME DEFINING LITERATURE AND RELIGIOUS TEXTS WE USE TODAY.  We clear, yet?



You can yell all night but people like Eloy can't (or won't) hear you because to accept that Jews have a history and the same right as any people to that history and a homeland is to contradict and dismember his agenda ... an agenda to which he clings desperately and that has existed for centuries.


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## Eloy (Nov 23, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect.
> ...


The sect which developed the Dead Sea Scrolls are understood by scholars to have become *extinct* a couple of thousand years ago. Some of the texts I understand to be from the Jewish Bible and other holy books written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus as well as Greek. So, there are various influences.



Shusha said:


> #2.  The Arab and Muslim people have a shitty, shitty, shitty record of safe-guarding and caretaking the historical and religious cultural heritage of other cultures.  Come on!  Temple Mount Sifting Project!  The hell?!  They are destroying irreplaceable archaeological finds in order to deny the existence of the Jewish people's history.  And the Palestinians, through UNESCO, are ACTIVELY seeking to erase Jewish history and religious significance.  They are re-writing the truth in order to eliminate the Jewish people's rights to our own cultural heritage.  And you support this?  Why?  Why would you support this?


I am unfamiliar with excavations around the Al Aqsa mosque but the destruction of of all evidence of population of an ethnically cleansed people such as happened to the Jews under the Roman period is like a second cleansing and vile. I see this happening in Israel when Palestinian  place names and their replacement with Hebrew and it is no less reprehensible.



Shusha said:


> #3.  Israel absolutely has the right to act on behalf of the Jewish people everywhere when it comes to preserving and protecting our cultural heritage.  That was the entire POINT of creating our own Nation!  So that we could be protected.  Wow.  Are you that clueless?  Is France no longer permitted to speak for the French?  Is Japan no longer permitted to speak for the Japanese?


I see it quite differently; the British were offering European Jews a homeland as long as it was not in Europe. They settled on Palestine and the consequential death, bloodshed, and hateful propaganda has continued ever since. European Jews had nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many of the rich had already gone to America where they did rather well for themselves. Those in the east European shtetls  suffered in the Final Solution. The British version of the final solution was to get the Jews out of Europe. Those Jews who went and took Arab land have no more right to speak for all Jews in the world no more than the Jews of Queens, New York can speak or all Jews.



Shusha said:


> But to ease your mind, let's ask.  Let's ask some of our Jewish members here who they would prefer to have caretakership over our ancient Jewish texts?  Hey, Hollie ,Roudy , rylah , irosie91 , SAYIT , MJB12741 , turzovka , (and please tag anyone I have forgotten):  Who would you rather have as guardian of the oldest known extant texts of our Torah -- Israel or the Palestinian Authority?  (I vote Israel, btw).


I heard that _argumentum ad populum_ is supposed to be a logical fallacy. Thanks for the list.


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## Phoenall (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 So you dont accept that the initial invasion of the land and theft of Jewish artifacts in 1949 count in your POV. This was legal and correct to your way of thinking because they were only " filthy Jews " and had no rights. Imagine if the scrolls had suffered the same way that many Jewish artifacts had after the illegal invasion, occupation and annexation of Jerusalem by arab muslims. How many ancient Torah scrolls were destroyed by the muslim neanderthals as a childish by them,


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## Phoenall (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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 LIAR they destroyed many ancient Jewish artifacts in the west bank, Jerusalem and gaza between 1949 and 1967 like spoilt brats do when they cant get their own way. The dead sea scrolls were the product of Jews and their descendants are still living in the same area today and so they are theirs not yours


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## Phoenall (Nov 23, 2016)

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians, though they have converted to Christianity and Islam, are the offspring of the same people that were there when the scrolls were written.  The European Zionists that invaded and colonized Palestine have more right to them than the native people?








 They were also the offspring of the Jews who were there when the scrolls were written. The fact that the majority of "palestinians" are recent arrivals to the lands after being extinct from them for many years means that the Jewish returnee's do have a greater claim. And you have failed repeatedly to prove that the Jews from Europe are not descendants of the Jews who were taken as slaves by the Romans 2000 years ago


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## Phoenall (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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 So no actual proof just conjecture by a few scholars that want it to be that way.

 Then deny the destruction of actual historical artifacts by arab muslims so that any evidence of earlier inhabitation is wiped out

So you deny the Jews the same rights you demand for the arab muslims because you dont want them to have anything, how about we treat you as you are trteating the Jews and see how you like it ?


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## RoccoR (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy,

It is a fallacy.



Eloy said:


> I heard that _argumentum ad populum_ is supposed to be a logical fallacy. Thanks for the list.


*(COMMENT)*

It does NOT mean that the "Truth" is fallacious. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> I heard that _argumentum ad populum_ is supposed to be a logical fallacy.



You are like a child who has learned a new fancy new word and then goes around using it incorrectly.


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## Shusha (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> The sect which developed the Dead Sea Scrolls are understood by scholars to have become *extinct* a couple of thousand years ago. Some of the texts I understand to be from the Jewish Bible and other holy books written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus as well as Greek. So, there are various influences.



The recovered texts are the exact same texts that the Jewish people use today.  Exact same.  They are in a language spoken by, and only by, the Jewish people.  They describe rituals and laws and celebrations which are still in practice today. They are the oldest extant written texts of a living culture of peoples who still use them.  That they should be under the guardianship of another culture is ridiculous.  

Its like saying that the Egyptians of ancient times are extinct (and no one speaks that language any more, nor practices that religion), therefore modern Egyptians have no rights to be guardians of the ancient Egyptian culture.  

Or that since the early Christians are extinct, Catholics have no rights to be guardians of early Christian texts and they were stolen by the Vatican and must be returned to the Baha'i.  




> I am unfamiliar with excavations around the Al Aqsa mosque but the destruction of of all evidence of population of an ethnically cleansed people such as happened to the Jews under the Roman period is like a second cleansing and vile.



Thank you!  You might have said that the first time I brought it up and saved us some bit of trouble.  Yes.  It is vile.  And you know what?  Those Dead Sea Scrolls were probably hidden because of the Roman ethnic cleansing.  They were probably hidden then to protect them from being stolen from the Jewish people and destroyed.  (You may have noticed that the Romans did quite a bit of destroying during their ethnic cleansing.  In fact, you may have even noticed that a Temple does not stand on the Holy Place any longer.)  

So, if you accept the idea that the Romans did, indeed, ethnically cleanse the Jewish people from their homeland and you accept that precious cultural heritage of the Jewish people was destroyed in the process, why would you deny the Jewish people their miraculously preserved cultural heritage today?



> I see this happening in Israel when Palestinian  place names and their replacement with Hebrew and it is no less reprehensible.


I know, right?!  How DARE the Jewish people rename Al Quds -- Jerusalem! The nerve!

And no it is much less reprehensible than destroying a three thousand year old historical, spiritual and archaeological site.  That was irreplaceable.  Places can always be renamed.  



> European Jews had nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls.



Don't be silly.  The European Jews use the same Hebrew texts as every other Jew in the world.


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## Phoenall (Nov 23, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The sect which developed the Dead Sea Scrolls are understood by scholars to have become *extinct* a couple of thousand years ago. Some of the texts I understand to be from the Jewish Bible and other holy books written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus as well as Greek. So, there are various influences.
> ...








You will never change their minds until you make the study of Jew hatred illegal and punishable by prison. 

 First he denies that he is unaware of any excavations around the Temple mount, yet knows all about the changing of place names back to their pure Jewish forms and finds it reprehensible.

 Then he states that European Jews taken from their homes in Judea and Samaria have no link to the dead sea scrolls, yet arab muslims from pakistan or the UAE most probably wrote them 400 years before they were even invented.

 He is afraid to open his mind in case the truth should ever leak in and attack his brainwashing leaving it wide open to be infected with reality


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## fanger (Nov 23, 2016)

Miss Emma speaks, or tries to


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## Hossfly (Nov 23, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The sect which developed the Dead Sea Scrolls are understood by scholars to have become *extinct* a couple of thousand years ago. Some of the texts I understand to be from the Jewish Bible and other holy books written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus as well as Greek. So, there are various influences.
> ...



You can argue round and round with those who believe that the Jews are entitled to nothing.   However, unless  a person is so illiterate, he or she is aware that in the museums and universities in the Western world there are ancient  treasures from the Middle East and from Greek and Roman civilizations.  No one who parks himself on one thread is going to pay attention to this because the Jews are not involved.   However, I don't think that there is any controversy going on that these aantiquities should be returned to the country in which they  were found.  These antiquities are in the hands of the people  who will take great care in preserving them, the same way the Jews will take care of the Dead Sea Scrolls which are actually part of their heritage.   We see what is happening in many parts of the Middle East where churches and mosques are being destroyed so the Scrolls are in good hands now.

Egyptian Art | The Metropolitan Museum of Art


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## montelatici (Nov 23, 2016)

How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine?  They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.


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## Hossfly (Nov 23, 2016)

montelatici said:


> How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine?  They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.


What do the Palestinians want the scrolls for? The written material s not about them or the Christians. My guess is they only want them so they can sell them and make a buck.Well, they ain't getting their sticky little fingers on the scrolls.


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## Hollie (Nov 23, 2016)

montelatici said:


> How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine?  They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.


Oh my. Another reiteration of your goofy slogans and cliches.

It's always a treat to read your copy and paste nonsense as you set the board straight, again, about that hallucination of a Jewish invasion that you imagine took place in the defunct Ottoman province of British Palestine. Phwew! We really needed to hear your religious hatreds spewed across the forums, again—thanks, Mahmoud!

Your latest tirade even identifies that Jews in Europe somehow had a different cultural and religious heritage than Jews elsewhere.

Do you understand anything? You have no facts on an issue, you are personally acknowledging your bias, and you are asking strangers on a public forum to help you justify your bias in your mind.

Doesn't that, at the very least, make you feel dirty?


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## Shusha (Nov 23, 2016)

montelatici said:


> How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans ...



This isn't rocket science, monte

What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews?  Hebrew.
What language are the Dead Sea Scrolls (primarily) written in?  Hebrew.
What language do the Arab Muslim people of Palestine speak?  Arabic.

What religious doctrines are practiced by European Jews?  Judaism
What religious doctrines are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls?  Judaism.
What religious doctrines are practiced by the Arab Muslim people of Palestine?  Islam.

What cultural celebrations and holidays are followed by the European Jews?  Celebrations and holidays as laid out in Torah.
What cultural celebrations and holidays were written in the Dead Sea Scrolls?  Celebrations and holidays as laid out in Torah.
What cultural celebrations and holidays are followed by the Arab Muslim people of Palestine? Celebrations and holidays as laid out in Quran.


So, I asked once before, I'll ask again -- why should cultural heritage follow land rather than people?  Especially, why should a cultural heritage follow land which has been invaded by colonizers who co-opt, usurp, steal or assimilate the native culture?  And if it comes down to guardianship of cultural heritage for the purpose of living it, and celebrating it and passing it down from generation to generation -- why should it be given over to a culture which does NOT live it, celebrate it or pass it down?


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## Eloy (Nov 23, 2016)

Shusha said:


> The recovered texts are the exact same texts that the Jewish people use today.  Exact same. ...


The Bible is used by Christians and Followers of The Book are given special honor by Islam.



Shusha said:


> Its like saying that the Egyptians of ancient times are extinct (and no one speaks that language any more, nor practices that religion), therefore modern Egyptians have no rights to be guardians of the ancient Egyptian culture.


Modern Eqypt bears no resemblance to the Ancient Kingdoms.



Shusha said:


> ... So, if you accept the idea that the Romans did, indeed, ethnically cleanse the Jewish people from their homeland and you accept that precious cultural heritage of the Jewish people was destroyed in the process, why would you deny the Jewish people their miraculously preserved cultural heritage today?


Rather it is consistent with the condemnation of any and all ethnic cleansing which includes what the Israelis did and are doing to the Palestinian people.

It seems to me that you are quick to criticize relatively minor insensitivity in other people while refusing to see greater faults of Israelis.


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## Eloy (Nov 23, 2016)

Shusha said:


> What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews?  Hebrew.


You don't say.






View of a typical Polish Shtetl in which Yiddish was spoken before the Final Solution.


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## Hossfly (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The recovered texts are the exact same texts that the Jewish people use today.  Exact same. ...
> ...


As you can see,  Shusha , he is still parking himself here while hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians have been killed in other areas of the Middle East, and  there are probably thousands and thousands who are wounded and unable to get medical care.   We know that there are several million displaced people.  The antiquities which have been destroyed there can never be replaced, but  it is more important for him to constantly whine that the Scrolls belong to the Palestinians.  Perhaps someone could arrange to have him sit down with a Palestinian and ask his new friend to read a couple of pages from the Scrolls.

As for the Muslims thoughts about Christianity.

'Break the Cross!' Muhammad Commands It


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## Hossfly (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews?  Hebrew.
> ...


Do tell us, Eloy, in what language are the  Jewish prayers said in  and in what language do the Jewish students in Yeshivas study the Torah and other ancient Hebrew writings.  Do the Palestinians use the same language for their prayers and do they study Hebrew in their madrassas to read the ancient Jewish writings? טמבל​


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## Eloy (Nov 23, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
He did it to mock the Palestinian people and I, for one, will not join in demeaning a people.


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## Shusha (Nov 23, 2016)

Eloy said:


> It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
> He did it to mock the Palestinian people and I, for one, will not join in demeaning a people.



Um, she did it to point out the ridiculousness of a foreign people demanding "return" of artifacts of a cultural heritage that does not belong to them.  Its not demeaning to say that Arab Muslim Palestinians aren't Jewish.


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## Eloy (Nov 23, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It is my understanding that Yiddish was the spoken language of European Jews. Christians usually study the Bible in their own language but scholars study original texts in Hebrew and Greek. I am unfamiliar with Jewish and Muslim schools.


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
> ...


BUT THE PALESTINIANS ARE A SEMITIC PEOPLE UNLIKE MOST JEWS.......something your mind is unable to contemplate or absorb.....The truth is in my SPEAK because I AM THE LIQ a sentinel for Jewish and Palestinian FREEDOM......unlike you a repressive two bit Zionist SYNTHETIC JEW.........."GO LIQ,FLY HIGHER AND HIGHER,NO NEED TO TALK TO THESE PEOPLE MAN......HOW COULD YOU EVER FLY WITH EAGLES WHEN YOU DEAL WITH TURKEYS LIKE THESE"


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Keep the PRESSURE ON Eloy......don't let the Bastards get you down.steve


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
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silly Hoss


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
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this is kid stuff hoss,and these childish questions to try to fox Eloy not only that you by definition Insulting  Eloy.....1/10 go to the Naughty Corner Hoss...steve


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## Phoenall (Nov 24, 2016)

fanger said:


> Miss Emma speaks, or tries to







Been on the khat again, or have you now moved up to hashish or poppy ?


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## Phoenall (Nov 24, 2016)

montelatici said:


> How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine?  They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.









 how can it be part of the heritage of a people not even invented until 1000 years after they were written ? All the DNA tests show that the arab muslims have no genetic ties to the lands of palestine being invaders from other parts of the M.E. Why do you deny the Jews you Catholics stole as slaves in 70 C.E. their rights to return to their roots and homeland. Your links to genetic studies show that the facts are inconclusive and are biased for the European Jews being direct descendants of the original Jewish inhabitants of the area. As for the Christians they did not appear until 4 C when the religion was invented by Greeks and Romans


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## Phoenall (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The recovered texts are the exact same texts that the Jewish people use today.  Exact same. ...
> ...








 The the koran an its abrogated format and come back with the results, should be interesting when you get to the parts were it goes from " people of the book " to " pigs, apes and dogs " and " KILL THE UNBELIEVERS WHO BROKE ALLAH'S COVENANT "

Only because you are trying to re-write history and the truth again. The Pyramids are still in Egypt along with the Sphinx and have not moved in 4000 years. All that has altered is the course of the Nile, the sand dunes and the borders over millenia

How is responding to illegal weapons ethnic cleansing then ? How can deporting illegal immigrants and hostile's be ethnic cleancing when they are not ethnics in the first place. They have to be institutionalised on the land to become ethnics. Give details of any ethnic cleansing by the Jews that are not a result of Israel following International laws in deporting illegals from their nation to safeguard the unarmed population.

 It seems that you want to lay all the blame at the Jews feet and see the world rise up and finish the final solution so you can move on and find a new scapegoat.


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## Phoenall (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews?  Hebrew.
> ...








 Along with Hebrew in the Synagogues.    Yiu do know what Yiddish is dont you, it is a mixture of Hebrew and German

Yiddish - Wikipedia


*Yiddish* (ייִדיש, יידיש or אידיש, _yidish_/_idish_, literally "Jewish"; [ˈjɪdɪʃ] or [ˈɪdɪʃ] in older sources ייִדיש-טײַטש "Yiddish-Taitsh" (English: _Judaeo-German_)[3]) is the historical language of the Ashkenazi Jews. It originated during the 9th century[4] in Central Europe,* providing the nascent Ashkenazi community with an extensive Germanic based vernacular fused with elements taken from Hebrew and Aramaic, *as well as from Slavic languages and traces of Romance languages.[5][6] Yiddish is written with a fully vocalized alphabet based on the Hebrew script.

The earliest surviving references date from the 12th century and call the language לשון־אַשכּנז (_loshn-ashknaz_, "language of Ashkenaz") or טײַטש (_taytsh_), a variant of _tiutsch_, the contemporary name for Middle High German. Colloquially, the language is sometimes called מאַמע־לשון (_mame-loshn_, literally "mother tongue"), distinguishing it from לשון־קדש (_loshn-koydesh_, "holy tongue"), meaning Hebrew. The term "Yiddish", short for "Yiddish-Teitsch" (Jewish German), did not become the most frequently used designation in the literature until the 18th century. In the late 19th and into the 20th century the language was more commonly called "Jewish", especially in non-Jewish contexts, but "Yiddish" is again the more common designation.



 Looks like you took the hate sites word for it again and did not do your own research. So once again the language of the European Jews was Hebrew


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## Phoenall (Nov 24, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 Does not take much to do either does it as you take your script straight from the hate sites and then cry when found out.


 You lose again


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Born a Winner Me.....What a Shame the GREAT GHENGIS KHAN never conquered the Whole of Europe....Now there was a Man


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## Phoenall (Nov 24, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...






You missed the h out of whiner because that is all you do


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## Hossfly (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Don't you realize that all along you have been mocking the Jewish people by saying ancient scrolls written mainly in Hebrew don't belong to them, but belong to a people who have had nothing in common with the Jewish religion nor the Hebrew language..  We have seen this for years on forums.  The Palestinians are used as pawns by others to get in their knocks in about the Jews.  They care nothing about the suffering of people in other areas of the Middle East.  So tell us, Eloy, since you are so familiar with shetls, are you familiar with the poverty that existed in many countries surrounding Israel that the Arabs came into Israel in droves (as reported by Winston Churchill)?

Churchill: Jews did not uproot Arabs. To the contrary, more Arabs came to Palestine because of the Jews - Reader comments for Gatestone Institute


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## Hossfly (Nov 24, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


And here. Steve,  I thought that you and Eloy were Yeshiva Bocher -- from the David Duke Yeshiva.

Maybe you, too, can arrange to have a Palestinian sit down with you and read the Scrolls to you.  I know who can help you in arranging this..  Your friends, those crazy Jews (Neturei Karta)  who are favorites of the hate sites,  who you think are the authentic Jews versus what ridiculous you call the fake Jews(   Maybe on one of their trips to see their good friends, the Ayatollahs in Iran), they would be most happy to assist you in this endeavor.


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## Phoenall (Nov 24, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...









 Or monte could stand in and show were they say that the Jews were wiped out by the Roman Catholics and their religion transferred to the Roman Catholics so they became the favourites of god


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## Eloy (Nov 24, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


I wrote that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong to everyone. I never said they do not belong to the Jews but I did write that they do not belong to the Israelis who purloined them.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



I don't feel like going thru the whole thread.  Give me a little history here.  Academically, the Dead Sea Scrolls are mostly in the Hebrew language, and contain the Hebrew Bible.  But who was in possession of them first and how did Israel "purloin" them?


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## rylah (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews?  Hebrew.
> ...



So what's your argument here?


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## rylah (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Yes Yiddish was the daily language, Hebrew was and still is the Holy language.
And what alphabet was used in Yiddish?

This is the Hebrew  alphabet:





This is a printed Yiddish newspaper:





And here's a handwritten fragment of the Dead Sea scrolls (Psalm 138):





and the scroll alphabet:




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Do you see much difference?*


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## rylah (Nov 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Really 'Palestinian place names'? You mean like "renaming" Al-Halil into Hebron, interesting what came first?


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


The Canaanites,Moabites,Philistines need I go on...Nah Israelites were Synthetic Come Latelys and EXTERMINATED these Peoples to GRAB THEIR LAND........Now WHERE HAVE I SEEN THIS BEFORE,that's right with the Palestinians but as much as you tried you could not EXTERMINATE Them.....Viva The Palestinians,Viva Palestine.


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## Shusha (Nov 24, 2016)

I read an article only a few days ago about a modern Hebrew speaker wondering whether or not he could read the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls.  So he tried. 

And, yes, of course he could.


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Shusha said:


> I read an article only a few days ago about a modern Hebrew speaker wondering whether or not he could read the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls.  So he tried.
> 
> And, yes, of course he could.


Of Course,Jews are so Brilliant at everything..............Unfortunately NOT TRUE.....by the way the Jews of America have just been demoted into 2nd Place as the Ethnic Group who have the highest per-capita income in the USA,this title now goes to the Native Americans,makes you wonder.


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## Shusha (Nov 24, 2016)

Oh wow.  You must have been getting bored.  After all, its been hours since you threw an anti-semitic canard at us.  So let's throw out the -- Jews are so brilliant -- one.  Yay you!  Feel better now, do you?

Um.  No.  Silly.  He could read it because its the same language.


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Oh wow.  You must have been getting bored.  After all, its been hours since you threw an anti-semitic canard at us.  So let's throw out the -- Jews are so brilliant -- one.  Yay you!  Feel better now, do you?
> 
> Um.  No.  Silly.  He could read it because its the same language.


I know Shusha,I was just teasing you.....Ducks an all.Quack,Quack.steve


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## montelatici (Nov 24, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Does that mean that anything found in the Latin language belongs to the descendants of the Latins, the people of Latium (Lazio).


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine?  They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.
> ...


They indeed DID have HAVE a DIFFERENT and CULTURAL and RELIGIOUS heritage THAN other JEWS....www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

You see I give you a greater insight into Jewish..History because I am more educated,keep that in mind,always Hollie and your indolent Possee......who purely live on banal inaccurate sound bites only ......steve.....


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## montelatici (Nov 24, 2016)

Poor Hollie, an uneducated dummy that  can only complain when others "cut and paste" facts from serious sources.  All she knows is Zionist propaganda.


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine?  They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.
> ...


Calling the Kettle Black methinks here Hoss.....your posts are decending into a vortex of Prue Insanity of late......I understand you tend to believe(SADLY) what the Synthetic Zionists are spewing......Time to take up the Bottle again Hoss...LOL,steve(Love you man,still)


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## Hossfly (Nov 24, 2016)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


 
I would think that any ancient manuscript  found in Latin these days should be handed over to the Vatican.  The people there no doubt are very adept at reading Latin just as the people in Israel are adept at reading Hebrew.


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## theliq (Nov 24, 2016)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans ...
> ...


No1 Not Always
No2 Not Always
No3 Not Always because Palestinians are Christians Too
So I say your prose is too simplistic,not once,not twice but thrice.


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered between 1946 and 1956 in eleven caves close to a  an ancient Jewish settlement in Qumran in the eastern Judaean Desert which is now in the occupied West Bank. The Jewish sect at Qumran became extinct in the early Christian period. 

They were housed in the Palestine Archaeological Museum in East Jerusalem when the Israelis invaded the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in 1967. Once in Israeli possession, they were purloined by the Israeli government and are now kept by the Israeli Antiquities Authority in West Jerusalem.


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I argue against Shusha that the language of European Jews was not Hebrew but Yiddish.


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


You are creating a false similarity between the Hebrew alphabet and the Hebrew language. As languages such as Swedish and Latin are distinctly different although both use the Latin alphabet, so Yiddish, which is predominantly German, is not Hebrew despite the alphabet and minor elements of Hebrew and Aramaic, as well as Slavic and Romance language borrowings.


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I gather from your tone that you are not familiar with the Israeli practice, in Israel proper, of changing the Arab names of properties to Hebrew and sometimes obliterating evidence of Palestinian habitation altogether in order to ethnically cleanse stolen Arab villages and structures. This is done to legitimize the dispossession of Arabs from their homes and somehow make it look like the area was and is Jewish. It is, of course, bogus. For example, the Palestinian village of Safuriyeh in northern Israel was mostly demolished and in its place the Israelis planted pine trees and the name of the area was changed to Tzippori. The place has been ethnically cleansed. This is just one of many instances of the dispossession and displacement of Palestinians by Israelis in Israel.


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## theliq (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Of course they are Palestinian,Eloy I think I read somewhere,that the Scrolls were in the possession of an extinct Christian Group..The Nostics?????or am I talking Shit..steve


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Be in no doubt that no institution can rival the scholars of pontifical universities in the study not only of ancient Latin but also Old Testament Hebrew, Aramaic, and other Semitic languages.


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


It has been speculated that the authors of some of the later scrolls were also members of the new Christian sect  but not enough is known about this as well a the early Gnostics. Lost in the fog of time.


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## Shusha (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> I gather from your tone that you are not familiar with the Israeli practice, in Israel proper, of changing the Arab names of properties to Hebrew and sometimes obliterating evidence of Palestinian habitation altogether in order to ethnically cleanse stolen Arab villages and structures. This is done to legitimize the dispossession of Arabs from their homes and somehow make it look like the area was and is Jewish. It is, of course, bogus. For example, the Palestinian village of Safuriyeh in northern Israel was mostly demolished and in its place the Israelis planted pine trees and the name of the area was changed to Tzippori.



Wow.  Oh wow.  Where do you GET this stuff from?  Can you not even bother to do a simple google search on f^%ing Wiki before you post this crap?

The (cough cough) "Palestinian" Arab village of Safuriyeh was conquered and taken by the Arab Muslim invaders in 634 CE.  Who do you think inhabited it before that?  And what was it called?  Where the hell do you think the name "Safuriyeh" comes from?  (Here's a hint:  Its the freaking Arabic transliteration of the place's older name -- which was...wait for it...ta da...Tzippori.)

You are seriously sitting in front of your keyboard and arguing that Israel is to be admonished for calling Al Quds Jerusalem.  As though Al Quds was the original and only name for the place.  As though the Arab Muslims founded the place.  As though there was NOTHING there before the Arab Muslims arrived.  As though the Jewish people have somehow stolen and usurped the place from its original inhabitants.

And in the absolute height of irony, you then claim that this is done to "legitimize the dispossession of Arabs".  And that it is done to "make it look like the area was ... Jewish".


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I gather from your tone that you are not familiar with the Israeli practice, in Israel proper, of changing the Arab names of properties to Hebrew and sometimes obliterating evidence of Palestinian habitation altogether in order to ethnically cleanse stolen Arab villages and structures. This is done to legitimize the dispossession of Arabs from their homes and somehow make it look like the area was and is Jewish. It is, of course, bogus. For example, the Palestinian village of Safuriyeh in northern Israel was mostly demolished and in its place the Israelis planted pine trees and the name of the area was changed to Tzippori.
> ...


The difference which you ignore is that the Palestinians who were refused permission to return to Safuriyeh are still alive as refugees while those of, say, Caesarea Philippi are long gone and turned to ashes.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Shusha is a she.  I had a bird once who was named Shushka.


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## fanger (Nov 25, 2016)

_Shiksa?_


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## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Ok Eloy, when you're right then you're right.  Yiddish is basically German written in Hebrew letters.  But that doesn't negate the fact that the Dead Seas Scrolls are basically the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) written in the Jewish language of Hebrew, with only a smattering of Aramaic (the language of the Talmud), and a few in Greek.  According to the scholarly book "Jews, God and History", they were written by a pre-Christian, now-defunct Jewish sect, known as the Essenes.  Also according to that book, the reason that Christians did not claim the Dead Sea Scrolls for themselves is that the Essenes probably influenced the later religion of Christianity with its highly-Messianic sect.  According to that book, the Christians felt that it was enough that their god and all of their early apostles were Jews; they did not want want their theology to be credited to the Essenes, a Jewish sect, as well.  Only the Palestinians, who speak Arabic and who mostly follow the Quran and not the Tanakh, would have the unmitigated "chutzpah" to claim the Dead Sea Scrolls as "their" own heritage.  They are trying to erase the Jewish connection to the Land of Israel but they will never succeed.


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I believe the Essene theory has been questioned. Nevertheless, despite colonial looting of national heritage artifacts, I think it is proper that such treasures remain in the land where they were found, in this case, Palestine.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > I read an article only a few days ago about a modern Hebrew speaker wondering whether or not he could read the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls.  So he tried.
> ...


Not too smart are you, Steve, even with all your bragging.   Americans whose ancestry is in India are not the same as Native Americans *or American Indians."  The  Native Americans are not at the top of high earners.
The reason given for Indians being the top earners is because so many of them come over here with college degrees.  Maybe some day many Native Americans will have degrees too.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Oh,Steve, if you only could realize how ridiculous you are with your "fake Jews" and "Synthetic Zionists" mantras.  It certainly sounds like you have been going off your meds on a regular basis.  One thing I believe is quite obvious to the readers is that you and the other anti-Semites are like two peas in a pod.  You can deny it all your want, but the average reader is smart enough to see right through you.


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## Shusha (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> The difference which you ignore is that the Palestinians who were refused permission to return to Safuriyeh are still alive as refugees while those of, say, Caesarea Philippi are long gone and turned to ashes.



But that is a different issue.  Your original comment was concerning how inappropriate it was for Israel to remove the Arab place names and give them Hebrew ones.  I was simply pointing out that it was the Arabs who replaced the names and Israel is just restoring them.


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 And I saw it in Australia when antipodean criminals tried to exterminate and/or ethnically cleanse Australia of its indigenous peoples.


 Need I go on and show that the muslims have done the same the world over because their god told them to. Just look at Darfur, Somalia, former Yugoslavia and most of the horn of Africa


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > I read an article only a few days ago about a modern Hebrew speaker wondering whether or not he could read the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls.  So he tried.
> ...









 Yes they are because neo nazi's like you LIE about how they buy their way into the top jobs and keep you untermensch out of them. The truth is you dont have the brains to wipe their arses' and that is why you never achieve any greatness. All you have is the mentallity of a slug, and the attention span of a pulsar so could never do half as much as a Jew in 10 times the time.


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Oh wow.  You must have been getting bored.  After all, its been hours since you threw an anti-semitic canard at us.  So let's throw out the -- Jews are so brilliant -- one.  Yay you!  Feel better now, do you?
> ...








 And admitting that you had lied in the past and that you are a rabid Jew hater really


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...










 Only if they were written by them in the first place, and were found in the vicinity of Lazio !


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The difference which you ignore is that the Palestinians who were refused permission to return to Safuriyeh are still alive as refugees while those of, say, Caesarea Philippi are long gone and turned to ashes.
> ...









As soon as you show that they are arguing from a position of losing even their original view they resort to deflection and derailment.


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








 The work of an anti semitic communist that is pushed by the many hate sites as a must read. Written in 1976 and no mention of this fictional people in any work prior to this date. Ranked alongside the Protocols as the anti semites must have work to use against the non communist enemies of marxism


 Once again you prove you live only to push hate from the hate sites.


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

montelatici said:


> Poor Hollie, an uneducated dummy that  can only complain when others "cut and paste" facts from serious sources.  All she knows is Zionist propaganda.









So the blogs you cut and paste from are now " serious sources" but world accepted encyclopedia sites are Jewish propaganda.......................... Go figure who is the one using propganda


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## OldLady (Nov 25, 2016)

This isn't about the Dead Sea Scrolls, anymore, huh?  
They belong to everyone, don't they, regardless of who is keeping them safe?
The way things are going in the Middle East, maybe they ought to be moved to Switzerland.


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








 And your reading ability leaves much to be desired


Nearly always

Nearly always

muslims are not Christians


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 So lets see if this is right


 Jewish works of antiquity showing the religious practises of the Jewish people were found in caves on land stolen by Jordan who that disowned them and threw them away. A Christian archeologist recognised them few pieces offered on a market stall for what they were and bought them for the Catholic church and an American museum. Jordan then realises that they are historical artifacts that could blow up in their faces and prove that the Jews were there before the arab muslims so start to collect as many fragments as they could and put them on display in a museum . In 1967 the forces of Jordan attack Israel and are beaten back over the river Jordan so that the land granted to the Jews under international law comes under Jewish jurisdiction. The fragments are moved to a more secure facility a short distance away for all to see.


 So who stole them first and was looking at ways to destroy them so the world would be ignorant of their contents ?


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 And you argue from a positing of lacking intelligence as Yiddish is based on Hebrew. Just as Harlem ghetto talk is based on English and Jamaican


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 And where do you get the evidence that Yiddish is mostly German from.

 That is like saying that American is mostly Italian because so many Italian words are now common to the language


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## Phoenall (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...










 And you are ignorant of the arab muslim practice of destroying everything non islamic and making it dissappear so proving that it has only ever been islamic.

 As in ramallah that was originally Ram a Jewish town, or Al quds that was Jerusalem before islam was even invented.

 As for safuriyeh it was originally called Sepphoris and was a Jewish town


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



You're right, Eloy.  There are those who are at Catholic and Protestant seminaries who are experts in these ancient foreign languages.  They would roll their eyes at your trying to insist that the Scrolls belong to the Palestinians, especially in light of their fellow Christians being murdered in the Middle East because of their religion.

Why don't you tell your new comrades-in-arms that Jesus is going to be buried next to Mohammad in Medina, and that you will be conducting the funeral ceremony?

Will Jesus be buried next to Muhammad in Medina?


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...




After World War II, there were millions of refugees, most of which are dead today (the  same as the old ones from the Palestine  mandate are).  Those few who are still live today along with their children and grandchildren are not telling the rest of the world that they should be able to go back and automatically be given citizenship in their old countries.  Only the Palestinians, used as pawns by the other Arabs in their fight against the Jews, are doing this.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Great idea, Eloy.  Start a petition that all museums and other institutions around the world which have artifacts from the  Middle East should return them to the land in which they originated.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Now who would ever believe that Steve would use a site such as this????

Bible Believers - Wikipedia

Hmm. Mark Weber.  Now where have we heard that name before?

Mark Weber


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Can you look into this further for us, Eloy, and then get back to us?


The story of how those scrolls traveled from the hands of young Bedouin goat herders to be under the scrutinous eyes of international scholars is stranger than fiction. Although all the details of the next few years will probably never be known for sure, this much is clear. After hanging from a pole in a Bedouin tent for a period of time, the seven original scrolls were sold to two separate Arab antiquities dealers in Bethlehem. From there, four were sold (for a small amount) to Athanasius Samuel, Syrian Orthodox Metropolitan at St. Mark's Monastery in the Old City of Jerusalem. Scholars at the American School of Oriental Research, who examined them, were the first to realize their antiquity. John Trever photographed them in detail, and the great archaeologist William F. Albright soon announced that the scrolls were from the period between 200 BC and AD 200. The initial announcements were then made that the oldest manuscripts ever discovered had been found in the Judean desert! Clay jar of the type the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in. From Qumran, now in the Citadel Museum, Jordan. Three of the other original scrolls found by the Bedouin boys were sold to E. L. Sukenik, archaeologist at Hebrew University and father of Yigal Yadin (a general in the Israeli army who later became a famous archaeologist and excavator of Masada and Hazor). It should be noted that the drama of these events was heightened because these were the last days of the British Mandate period in Palestine, and tensions between the Arab and Jewish population were great. This made examination of the scrolls by scholars extremely dangerous. All of the scrolls finally came together at Hebrew University under another strange set of circumstances. After touring the U.S. with his four scrolls and not being able to find an interested buyer, Metropolitan Samuel placed an ad in the Wall Street Journal. By coincidence (or divine providence?) Yigal Yadin happened to be lecturing in New York and saw the advertisement. Through intermediaries, he was able to purchase these priceless scrolls for around $250,000. In February of 1955, the Prime Minister of Israel announced that the State of Israel had purchased the scrolls, and all seven (including the three purchased earlier by Professor Sukenik) were to be housed in a special museum at Hebrew University named the Shrine of the Book, where they can be seen today.


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## Hollie (Nov 25, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Oh, you mean _that_ Mark Weber. The whackadoodle Jew hating, Holocaust denying "activist". 

Lovely.


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## theliq (Nov 25, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Not so quick Hoss.......Native AMERICANS friend check your facts


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## theliq (Nov 25, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


You are getting MORE DESPERATE BY THE HOUR......LYING YOUR ZIONIST ARSE OFF >>>>>SAD BUT TRUE


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## theliq (Nov 25, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Jews are Great,Zionists those Plastic Jews from God knows where are Crap....End Of


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## theliq (Nov 25, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


I AM NOT A ZIONIST............ZIONISTS HAVE A VERY MYOPIC VIEW OF THE WORLD=WE ARE THE CHOSEN FEW<THE REST OF THE WORLD CAN GO TO HELL ........yep heard it all before


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Don't argue with the Hossfly.

Pew Research found the following:
Asian-Americans Lead All Others in Household Income






This is primarily a result of immigration policy that allows only technology workers from India, skewing salary and wealth levels.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Here we go again -- "fake plastic Jews."  Would you please grow a bushy beard and you can go with those you consider the "real Jews" when they visit their good friends in Iran, the Ayatollahs.  Just be sure you don't slip up and ask for bacon and eggs in the hotel there.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...




Instead of your bringing up this"chosen" stuff from the hate sites, why not do some research to see what it is meant to be chosen for.  If you had to follow the 613 commandments that the Orthodox  Jews do, you would have no time for your drinking.  While you are busy doing that, no doubt you will have a little time to also ask the Imam at your local mosque if the Muslims are to take over the world for Islam.  My, are you going to make a cute dhimmi.


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## Eloy (Nov 25, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The difference which you ignore is that the Palestinians who were refused permission to return to Safuriyeh are still alive as refugees while those of, say, Caesarea Philippi are long gone and turned to ashes.
> ...


You and I both know what the Israelis are up to in their sectarian state.


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## Eloy (Nov 26, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


For all the authority with which you write, Hossfly, I rather doubt you ever even met a Muslim.


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## theliq (Nov 26, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Look Hoss>>>>>READ MY LIPS>>>>>>I DO NOT DO HATE SITES>>>>>>I DO NOT DO ZIONIST HATE SITES>>>>>>>I DO NOT HATE>>>>READ MY LIPS>>>>>>>>NO DRINKING HERE>>>>>>I NOTE YOUR ATTITUDE SINCE THE ELECTION,AND I KNOW THERE WILL BE NO MORE HILLARY TO GLOAT OVER,IT WAS JUST SEX WITH YOU(WITH HER)>>>>>>TAKE AN ICE SHOWER>>>>>>>YOU'LL GET OVER HER.....Your friend steve


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## theliq (Nov 26, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


As I say Hoss........"THE LESS RELIGION....THE MORE CIVILIZATION".................so much for living in your draconian Zionista past.....me......I'm a  Civilized Man...,steve


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...









 I wonder if he will deny trawling the hate sites now, this is the 4th member to catch him out using hate sites for his evidence


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...











 You are caught with your pants down with everything on display and still you deny that you use hate sites.


 Your opening sentence is lifted straight from a hate site, even the description of Zionist and Zionism is word for word from the hate sites. Your denial is like an alcoholic stating that they dont drink when they are sat in a pub with a glass of cider in their hands and another 4 on the table.

You are a proven LIAR


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...










 Civilised men dont LIE to cover up their other LIES, they admit what they are doing and have the strength to stand up for their convictions. All you do is deny the evidence when confronted with it, proving that your argument is as weak as you are.


 You are a coward and a weak willed person


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...









 And you have become confused with Indians from Asia and Indians as in first nations


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...









 So yo are now denying your own words on this very post     



Um.  No.  Silly.  He could read it because its the same language.[/QUOTE]
I know Shusha,I was just teasing you.....Ducks an all.Quack,Quack.steve[/QUOTE]


A clear admission in any language


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...






You would not know the difference unless someone else was there to tell you.


Not all Jews are zionists, and not all zionists are Jews but all islamonazi propagandists are LIARS and trawl the hate sites


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...








That claim is one found only on the hate sites and is repeated daily by islamonazi morons who dont realise that it is one of the islamonazi mantras. The Jews never use it as it has no relevance today. So who is myopic now ?


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## Phoenall (Nov 26, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









I doubt that you have ever been close to one, so close that you were invited to his house


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## Hossfly (Nov 26, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


For all the blabbering you have done about the Jews and Israelis, one would think that you attend a minyan every Saturday morning so you know all about them.  BTW, with all the Iranian Muslims and Muslims from other countries now residing in the U.S., it is really a stupid statement of yours that I never met a Muslim.
Eloy must think that the intelligent readers can't see right through him.  It gives us a good idea of why so many hate crimes are against the Jews here.


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## Hossfly (Nov 26, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...


Cam you stop your ranting for a minute and give us some Willie Carto?  After all, you gave us the NeoNazi Mark Weber, so why not Willie?  If you don't want to do Willie, how about Michael Collins Piper who wrote articles for Willie?


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## Eloy (Nov 26, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


I sense, *Hossfly*, you can speak for the intelligent readers here.


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## Hossfly (Nov 26, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Not so. They can all speak for themselves rather eloquently and learned. Especially the Jews here.


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## Hossfly (Nov 26, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Well, Eloy, I certainly don't speak to the anti-Semites here as you do.,   In the past, there was a poster who said that anti-Semitism is a mental disease, and I have to agree with him.

Hmm, I wonder if at the minyan this morning where Eloy learns all about Jews if he told them that he believes the Palestinians should be given the scrolls.


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## theliq (Nov 26, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


YOU ARE AN IDIOT...............The ZIONIST HATE SITES ARE THE WORLDS WORST......YOU CANNOT ABIDE ANY CRITICISM TOWARDS YOUR UNGODLY TERRORIST ORGANIZATION....YOU try to demonize Eloy,Tinnie,Monti,Penny,Fanger and all(lovely polite,generous  Pro,P's)....to intimidate them to stop their Truth and Rights against you SYNTHETICS...Not Me, I'm a Brawler,prepared to cut and slice verbally against injustice.......and Filth....You are not only Criminals but Uncouth with it,the extent to your deceit and shameful behaviour is the spokesperons you use in any interviews.....instead of the Jewish-Hebrew?Israeli?Zionist ACCENT......Glutteral at best in English......You normally use English Jews who have a softer and more intelligible sound in English......SO SENSITIVE YOU ARE TO CRITICIM.......You are truly Synthetic in every Aspect ......


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## theliq (Nov 26, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


URINSANEANDBELIEVEYOURONFILTHYLIESSCHEAPONELINERSTHATYOUTHINKWILLFOXPEOPLEYOUMORON


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## Phoenall (Nov 27, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...









 How about you detail these alleged zionist hate sites then, just saying that there are some is nothing short of being desperate to show there are.

 I dont have to try very hard as like you they demonise themselves every time, it does not take much when you lift your C&P straight from the hate sites and dont even try to hide it.Your latest attempts all went straight to a neo nazi anti Jew site, I wonder why. The only synthetic on here is you and even this came from one of your hate sites where it is used  all the time to denote any Jew. You are neo nazi scum that is all mouth and trousers, and would go running to teacher the first time someone turned on you. So now the hate sites are preaching that Zionism is a criminal offence because they cant raise any support. I use no one in any interviews and the Hebrew language sounds the same no matter what the mother tongue is, it is on a par with Gregorian chants and Buddhist mantras  You dont do criticism ( note spelling ) you do islamonazi propaganda, islamofascist blood libel and neo marxist lies all lifted from the hate sites that are being slowly closed down for inciting violence and racial intolerance. Maybe the authorities in Brick lane will pay you a visit and close you down


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## Phoenall (Nov 27, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...








INSANE MELTDOWN MOMENT

 You have been caught hundreds of times LYING and using hate sites like the good little islamonazi scum you are. Very soon you will lose your internet and go missing for a month or so when your tame mod can no longer cover for you


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## theliq (Nov 27, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Huh...........more of your ineptitude,when you have the internal fortitude(GUTS) to show where I have used Hate Sites then let me know...YOU CAN'T because I never have


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## theliq (Nov 27, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


You are such RIDICULE,as to warrant such mirth.......only you lie and hate as your Mantra requires and dictate nothing but Zionist Hatred......It is plain for all to see.....I have you Zionist pegged,Shameful lot you are..........


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## member (Nov 27, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...








. . .was that about terrorists who were elected as the palestinian peoples' gov't ?


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## theliq (Nov 27, 2016)

member said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I suppose that was mean't to be funny !!!!!...DUH....How's Downtown Tel Aviv these days.


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## Phoenall (Nov 28, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...









 I do it all the time, and you dont like it. You cry every time I do it that you dont use the hate sites when patently your posts are copied word for word from them. Even your latest buzz words come from hate sites where they were invented for morons like you to spread, and I posted the sites that use them. You are not intelligent enough to have come up with the terms plastic Jew and synthetic Zionist all by yourself.


 So about these alleged zionist hate sites, will we get a list before Christmas or will you ignore the requests as is your normalpractise


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## Phoenall (Nov 28, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...








 Once again you show your inability to come up with any personal anecdotes so steal other peoples and then claim they are yours. A typical islamonazi trick that you use the world over.


You should either learn English or learn how to use your spell checker as your illiteracy is showing in every post. As you are shown your definition of Zionism is what you and your fellow islamonazi scum practise, the real definition is


*What is the definition of Zionism? *
“An international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel,” according to Merriam-Webster dictionary.

*Who supports Zionism? *
People who identify with Zionism generally support the creation and development of Israel as a Jewish nation. Not all Jews support Zionism.

What is Zionism? Everything you need to know as Labour anti-Semitism row rumbles on

You have no one pegged because you dont have the brains to even think about what Zionism really means. What is it the true Saudi muslims call you converts again, and only allow you a 2 week window to visit Mecca and live in tents ?

Thats it fake muslims good for being cannon fodder


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## Phoenall (Nov 28, 2016)

theliq said:


> member said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...








 Better than upsmell hullabaloo


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## Shusha (Nov 28, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> *What is the definition of Zionism? *
> “An international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel,” according to Merriam-Webster dictionary.



And let's be REAL clear what this is.  It is the EXACT equivalent to the Palestinian national movement which can be expressed in the same manner:

An international movement originally for the establishment of an Arab Muslim national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Palestine.  

If you support one and don't support the other, strictly by principle, you are discriminating against one of the groups.


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## Challenger (Nov 28, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> I am still looking for actual evidence that would support the claim that the discovery of these artifacts, which demonstrate a connection to the present day Jewish Culture, are "Zionist Mythology." Zionism was established as a political platform in mid-19th Century; most closely associated with Theodor Herzl, and the re-constitution of the Jewish National Home. The mid-20th Century discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls would seem to rule-out any Mythology associated with the Independence of Israel.
> 
> Those that rewrite the history of the Middle East, are unlikely to be convinced by any facts or discoveries.
> 
> ...



Try looking with your eyes open. 

You appear to be one of those who has either swallowed the Zionist re-write of the history of the Middle East, so are definitely unlikely to be convinced by facts, or are another pais or unpaid shill for the Zionist regime.

Zionism existed pre-Herzl as a whacko fringe ideology amongst the then Jewish population who saw themselves as natives of their respective countries who just happened to follow a different religion, and amongst Protestant Christians who promoted the idea of "the Jews" "returning" to Jerusalem to build their temple and so usher in the "Second Coming".  

Zionist/Nationalist historians such as Heinrich Graetz basically invented a Jewish "nation" and pushed the "diaspora" myth coupled with Biblical "events" to create a spurious link between Jewish Europeans and Americans and the so called "holy land".


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## Challenger (Nov 28, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Yes thanks, enough to know that nothing of major significance has been found so far and the bulk of artifacts discovered are either Roman/Byzantine, Crusader or Muslim. when the debris was removed it was under archaological supervision. No one knows what or how many objects the site of the so called "Solomon's Stables" may or may not have contained, there's at least one respected theory that suggests the site was in fact a disused water cistern that was filled in with rubbish. 

As for the scrolls themselves, they were no more mishandeled than any other artifact of the time based on the then available technology. Go to the British Museum and you'll find Egyptian papyri in the archives held together with adhesive tape, pending restoration by modern methods, so your argument doesn't hold water.


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## Challenger (Nov 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> So is the fact that the Temple was destroyed makes Jews less Jewish?



Not sure what you mean here; the religion itself changed it's focus in the Rabbinic period and split into different factions/rites. How the various sects practiced Judaism has no bearing on  this topic.


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## Challenger (Nov 28, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger, Shusha, RYLAH, FOREVERYOUNG436, HOSSFLY, ELOY, et al,
> ...



So what? Hadrian's wall recently gave up hundreds of Roman documents written in Latin, does that mean they should be returned to Italy?


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## Phoenall (Nov 28, 2016)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > I am still looking for actual evidence that would support the claim that the discovery of these artifacts, which demonstrate a connection to the present day Jewish Culture, are "Zionist Mythology." Zionism was established as a political platform in mid-19th Century; most closely associated with Theodor Herzl, and the re-constitution of the Jewish National Home. The mid-20th Century discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls would seem to rule-out any Mythology associated with the Independence of Israel.
> ...








 Twisting the truth again rat boy because you know Zionism will not go away in your lifetime. That the concept has been around for the last 2000 years and has grown in strength while your neo marxism has declined to nothing


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## Phoenall (Nov 28, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...







 Not what mainsteam media has been reporting, just the hate sites and islamonazi pallywood outlets.

So no more destruction that what was found in many of the Jewish holy places that were defiled and the artifacts defaced and defiled. Is that what you are trying to say ?


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## Phoenall (Nov 28, 2016)

Challenger said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...







 Have the descendants of the Romans who garrisoned their asked for thier return ?


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## Shusha (Nov 28, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Zionist/Nationalist historians such as Heinrich Graetz basically invented a Jewish "nation" and pushed the "diaspora" myth coupled with Biblical "events" to create a spurious link between Jewish Europeans and Americans and the so called "holy land".



Wow.  This is kinda crazy even for you, Challenger.


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## Shusha (Nov 28, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Yes thanks, enough to know that nothing of major significance has been found so far and the bulk of artifacts discovered are either Roman/Byzantine, Crusader or Muslim. ....



Oh yeah, nothing of significance.  First Temple era bullae and coins, Second Temple floor tiles, coins made during the First Revolt....


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## Hossfly (Nov 28, 2016)

Now who is going to declare that this belongs to the Palestinians?


He sits pensively, his hand on his chin, like a Middle Bronze Age predecessor to Rodin’s famous sculpture “The Thinker.”His eyes stare blankly as he sits atop a pot that was shattered sometime after it was buried some 3,800 years ago.
​The unique clay statuette, mounted atop a ceramic vessel, was found in the central Israel town of Yehud by a team of Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologists, who paired up with high school students in October.
News of the discovery was reported by the IAA on Wednesday.
Gilad Itach, the archaeologist heading the dig, said that on the last day of excavations, just before construction of a building commenced on site, they found the 18-centimeter (seven-inch) tall figurine, along with an assortment of other items.




Clay figurine is Bronze Age ancestor of Rodin’s ‘Thinker’


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## Phoenall (Nov 29, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Zionist/Nationalist historians such as Heinrich Graetz basically invented a Jewish "nation" and pushed the "diaspora" myth coupled with Biblical "events" to create a spurious link between Jewish Europeans and Americans and the so called "holy land".
> ...







 It is his natural activity and has been shown to be pushing an illegal action. He is a rabid neo nazi that blames the Jews for all the world ills, and he dresses up in his black uniform every month to attend the local neo nazi rally


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## Challenger (Nov 29, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Yes thanks, enough to know that nothing of major significance has been found so far and the bulk of artifacts discovered are either Roman/Byzantine, Crusader or Muslim. ....
> ...



Try reading my post before venting, I said nothing of *major* significance; bullae are "10 a penny" in archaeological terms as are coins and odd floor tiles, all items commonly found in ancient middens.


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## Challenger (Nov 29, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Zionist/Nationalist historians such as Heinrich Graetz basically invented a Jewish "nation" and pushed the "diaspora" myth coupled with Biblical "events" to create a spurious link between Jewish Europeans and Americans and the so called "holy land".
> ...


Just stating fact, ma'am.


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## Phoenall (Nov 29, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...








 Unless they are found in situ then they are as rare as a neo marxist speaking the truth


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## Phoenall (Nov 29, 2016)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Challenger said:
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 No just spouting islamomarxist LIES and BLOOD LIBELS


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

theliq said:


> rylah said:
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> > Eloy said:
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Nah, whatever YOUR MAGNIFICENCE  says on the such a subject was already solved by a strict justice of the Creator with the Canaanites during our 400 years of slavery in Egypt.
Phisilistines were of European origin, it means an "INVADER" in the local Canaanite languages  
Then came the Arabs and decided to call themselves after the Greek "INVADERS"... how amusing.


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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And yet again You're missing the big picture, the Jews in Europe were speaking many languages of the place- Ladino, Arabic(Spain), Russian,Polish, Ukrainian.
Yiddish in each area was influenced by a certain fashion of the surrounding culture. However in many areas of the world you'll actually find Hebrew words becoming a slang.

Just to make it clear, when we say 'Hebrew Language" we mean, the language of the Torah. The language Jews are keeping in check every Shabat for thousands of years.
While specialist theologians of the Christian faith can read the Scriptures in Latin, Greek and Hebrew, Jewish kids from age 12 study Torah scrolls by heart to sing them by looking at the actual scrolls...and You know even if he does 1 mistake in a letter, he shall be corrected, as Jews would with anyone singing the Torah. Because around him are at least 10 Jews who can read from the Torah in Hebrew....

Then of course these people go outside and speak the local language.
And many of them are teaching Torah to other Jews, use the local language and Hebrew in combination. Then others go and teach other Jews on other countries Torah in other languages...but the outcome is still the same- Jews keep on holding on to Hebrew and Torah.


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## montelatici (Dec 24, 2016)

You generalize, many Catholic children in selected countries still study Latin and memorize the High Mass.  Not to mention Greek Orthodox children particularly  from Greek speaking nations who study ancient Greek and speak modern Greek.


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Actually the Semitic Hebrew language stood there and made a significant impact on the Latin culture. Maimonides spoke many languages yet it didn't make him any less Jewish.


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## montelatici (Dec 24, 2016)

No, Latin has no relationship to semitic languages.  That's why is part of the Indo-European language family.  The Hebrew language made little or no impact on Latin Culture, it was the other way around.


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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We are talking about heritage here, are You going for slogans?
If an Arab, Druze, Armenian, American,Lebanese, Christian kid near me would like to get a job in most places in Israel, in most places he/she would get a decent opportunity to earn a living. The Arabic culture is actually expressed in the local language. There's no city that I know of that there're no Arabs living or working in. 

"AHI"- 'my bother'- is quiet much heard all over Israel, in every shop, street and home. Arabs and Jews use it.
The segregation You're talking about is in Your imagination ran by media.


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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In the most simple terms, what You miss is actually in front of Your eyes- the letters of the the Hebrew language. Those letters that were scrupulously questioned in each Jewish school for kids. Everywhere no matter what local alphabet was used, the Jews were studying from the Hebrew letters. 
If You understand little theology and philosophy it makes the issue much more colorful and clear.


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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One thing in perspective, Yiddish means 'of Yid', wherever. You're Yid I'm Yid...were're Judea...
So Yiddish means, the old practice of going to a lonely place and speaking to the Almighty in your simple daily 'mother language'. Be it Hebrew or any other language Your family speaks. Yiddish is of Yid


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

montelatici said:


> No, Latin has no relationship to semitic languages.  That's why is part of the Indo-European language family.  The Hebrew language made little or no impact on Latin Culture, it was the other way around.



You can play Your child games ignoring the age old conversation You're jumping at. 
Tell me what's written on the money Your country deals  internationally?
What is the basis of Your freedom ideals?

It's quiet clear this relationship still shocks the nations.
However the Latin nations are most entirely affected today by the Hebrew scriptures.


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## rylah (Dec 24, 2016)

montelatici said:


> You generalize, many Catholic children in selected countries still study Latin and memorize the High Mass.  Not to mention Greek Orthodox children particularly  from Greek speaking nations who study ancient Greek and speak modern Greek.



Great! Speaking many languages builds a versatile persona.
Now back to reality- what is the origin of about 50% of the book a priest teaches them in those classes?


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## montelatici (Dec 24, 2016)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > You generalize, many Catholic children in selected countries still study Latin and memorize the High Mass.  Not to mention Greek Orthodox children particularly  from Greek speaking nations who study ancient Greek and speak modern Greek.
> ...



Greek.


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## Phoenall (Dec 25, 2016)

montelatici said:


> You generalize, many Catholic children in selected countries still study Latin and memorize the High Mass.  Not to mention Greek Orthodox children particularly  from Greek speaking nations who study ancient Greek and speak modern Greek.






And believe the teachings of the nuns and priests when they tell them  " the filthy Jews murdered our god " Then the next blood libel to be told s that " the filthy Jews use the blood of Christian children to make their bread "


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## Phoenall (Dec 25, 2016)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > You generalize, many Catholic children in selected countries still study Latin and memorize the High Mass.  Not to mention Greek Orthodox children particularly  from Greek speaking nations who study ancient Greek and speak modern Greek.
> ...






I would put it closer to 90%


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## Eloy (Dec 25, 2016)

rylah said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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No-one would confuse Yiddish for Hebrew no matter what alphabet is used, Yiddish was the language of the European Jews before they were destroyed in the Final Solution.


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## Phoenall (Dec 25, 2016)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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So you as a Catholic worship the Gods of Ancient Greece do you. Or do you worship the God of Israel, the same one the modern day Jews worship and have done for 4,500 years


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## Phoenall (Dec 25, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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So this means that you LIE when you complain about the European Jews invading the mandate of Palestine and stealing the arab muslim lands. If they were wiped out then this means the Jews in Israel are from the area and so have the same rights as the arab muslims to claim independence. As for Yiddish it was being spoken in America shortly after your people invaded and mass murdered the indigenous inhabitants in the name of the Jewish God. It was also spoken in Syria, Yemen, Africa and any other part of the world that Jews lived.


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## theliq (Dec 25, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> Eloy said:
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And in Cockney London......where they are known as "FRONT WHEEL SKIDS''.....YIDS


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## Phoenall (Dec 26, 2016)

theliq said:


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Only a follower of the hate sites would know that, so once again you prove you do the rounds of all the hate sites for your next racist comment.

Now about the state of palestine, when did the arab muslims get the land granted to them ?


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## theliq (Dec 26, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
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Not Hate Sites Pheo,just Brilliant East End Vernacular........like Apples and Pears= Stairs,you seem very sensitive today Pheo.....having trouble starting your 20 year old Volvo today??????????


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## theliq (Dec 26, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
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See above post,as a continuance,Jews/Yids in London drive a lot of old Volvos but are RENOWN for being terrible drivers,hence,skidding and crashing in icy conditions....thus "FRONT WHEEL SKIDS"= YIDS/JEWS.....very clever


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## Phoenall (Dec 27, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
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"0 year old volvo's are easy to start, it is 13 year old muslim spoilt brats that have no friends that find it hard,   I know my cockney slang and that is one you made up because you are just a neo naxi racist scum that hides behind anti Zionism because it is the new anti semitism


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## Phoenall (Dec 27, 2016)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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No just idiotic and racist which is all we expect from neo nazi scum like you. Still trying to hide your RACIST ANTI SEMITISM BEHIND ANTI ZIONISM AND FAILING

 Loser


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## rylah (Dec 27, 2016)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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So what are you doing here trolling a discussion about Hebrew scriptures?


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## rylah (Dec 27, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Yiddish is any local language fused with Hebrew and written in Hebrew alphabet.
The fact that the alphabet was passed down so accurately has a reason, significant one. 

Even the FOREIGN language Jews used shows their connection to these scrolls.


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## Eloy (Dec 27, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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You cannot change the fact that Yiddish is mostly German with smidgens of Polish and other languages.


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## montelatici (Dec 27, 2016)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
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Commenting on the fact that there is nothing unique about Jewish children learning to read ancient texts, as you implied in your trolling.


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## rylah (Dec 27, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Even if so (which it isn't), still a language so foreign to the Hebrew, used by the Jewish people, and it still shows their connection to these scrolls


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## rylah (Dec 27, 2016)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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Jewish kids have been in exile around the globe TWICE. And through generations they've been studying the same language and read the same Torah in one language.


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## montelatici (Dec 27, 2016)

What, the descendants of European women that converted to Judaism have been in exile?  I think not.


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## rylah (Dec 27, 2016)

montelatici said:


> What, the descendants of European women that converted to Judaism have been in exile?  I think not.



King David was born of Ruth the Moabite. WHAT??

You see there's almost nothing new you can bring up against 4000 years of tradition.


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## montelatici (Dec 27, 2016)

It's like saying American Hari Krishnas have 4,000 years of Hindu tradition. You people crack me up.

"Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts............."

Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts | Genetic Literacy Project


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## Phoenall (Dec 27, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Why not you just have to your original claim, that was debunked by people better versed in it than you will ever be


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## rylah (Dec 27, 2016)

Your "study" also says:
_
"Before the advent of advanced DNA research, it had been thought by some historians that European Jewry traced to the largely pagan population of ancient Khazaria in the Caucuses, whose leadership was believed to have converted to Judaism beginning around 700 AD. But that theory—known as the Khazarian hypothesis—has been largely discredited by DNA research. One geneticist, Eran Elhaik, has recently attempted to revive the theory, but his research has been sharply challenged."_

Then they ASSERT and CLAIM many things_._
Basically they that once 20,000 Roman women decided to marry slaves, shave their heads and take upon themselves 613 commandments. And worst of all being called a Jew and treated as such.
And ALL of their children are the Askenazi Jews now? 
Amazing! 

Monte is this your new little "fact"?
_
_


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## Phoenall (Dec 27, 2016)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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 Dont like being told in public that you are a troll and spammer do you freddy, that is why you immediately put the blame on others. YOU TROLL THIS BOARD ALL THE TIME


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## rylah (Dec 27, 2016)

Yes and let's not forget that they claim that somehow 80% of the Ashkenazi males remained Middle Eastern...all the women Italian, but the males remained unchanged...


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## Phoenall (Dec 27, 2016)

montelatici said:


> It's like saying American Hari Krishnas have 4,000 years of Hindu tradition. You people crack me up.
> 
> "Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts............."
> 
> Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts | Genetic Literacy Project







 Debunked time and time again using your own links. The same author that refused to allow his peers to digest his sources and stormed of in a temper tantrum. 



 LOSER


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## Eloy (Dec 27, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
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No, the European Jews in the 20th century were unrelated to the Semitic Jews of the Middle East. Simply using a Hebrew alphabet is insufficient to establish a connection, whatever that means, between the two groups. Scottish Gaelic was a spoken language without any alphabet when the monks of the early centuries C.E. introduced a Latin alphabet but subsequent use of the Latin alphabet cannot demonstrate any connection between the Scots and, say, the Romanians who used the same script.


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## Eloy (Dec 27, 2016)

rylah said:


> Yes and let's not forget that they claim that somehow 80% of the Ashkenazi males remained Middle Eastern...all the women Italian, but the males remained unchanged...


Your notion that the Ashkenazim were predominantly Semitic on the male side is fanciful.


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## Phoenall (Dec 27, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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DNA testing has shown that the Jews are closely linked to the Jews of pre Roman conquest times, showing that you only believe the hate sites version of events


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## Phoenall (Dec 27, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Yes and let's not forget that they claim that somehow 80% of the Ashkenazi males remained Middle Eastern...all the women Italian, but the males remained unchanged...
> ...








 No it is truthful and came from the link monte provided, another link he wont be using for a while


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Even the link Monte attached proves you wrong- 80% at least are confirmed to be Middle Eastern.
Anyway this claim of "synthetic" Jews has been trashed time and time again in the intended posts. Here it's mere trolling and trying to catch a straws. We're discussing heritage and culture not genetics. And even if genetics were on your side (the studies show exactly the opposite), you'd still have to deal with the Jews who lived in the ME.

In addition the comparison is invalid for the simple fact that nobody else uses the Hebrew except for the Jews, unlike Latin and English.
Hebrew is a unique language, used by one people throughout millenniums. And thus shows a direct connection to a specific heritage.


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy and Monte, to sum up your argument, you claim that the Jews/Israelis don't have any right or connection to hold the Dead Sea scrolls.
 Why? 

Because a man or a woman who decides to go through conversion isn't a "real" Jew.

Did I get your idea?


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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It's as plain as the nose on one's face (if I might use that expression) that among the European Jews of the 20th century, so many had little if any Semitic blood. So indistinguishable were they from ordinary Europeans that, during the Third Reich, they were required to wear a yellow star when in public.






Aryan-looking blonde child from German-occupied France in the last century -- not at all Semitic

Once Israeli apologists are tempted into making a case for the purity of Jewish blood based on DNA, they have lost the argument among wiser people who identify racism at the core of Zionism.


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## Hollie (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
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Speaking of _rascism_™, you cut and pasted a photo of unknown origin or authenticity with the specific phrase "Aryan-looking". You do realize that Polish, Czech, northern Italians, etc., can be fair-skinned and blonde-haired, right? Wiser people can read your nonsense and identity the ignorance as simple-minded Jew hatreds.


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy and Monte, to sum up your argument, you claim that the Jews/Israelis don't have any right or connection to hold the Dead Sea scrolls.
> Why?
> 
> Because a man or a woman who decides to go through conversion isn't a "real" Jew.
> ...


It is not my idea that converts to Judaism are not Jews.

Rather, I am not a racist and I question a so-called connection between European Jews and Palestine based on race and the ownership of Palestine determined by race.


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Yet we all know the very distinguishable anti-semitic caricatures portraying those Jews with big noses and locks on the sides. We also know  that those Jewish kids were killed for merely being Jews. What was once used to single out the Jew is now used by you to make him indistinguishable.

It's a reoccurring neurosis in the anti-semitic syndrome- the Jews are Jews when they're to blame, even after they've assimilated fully, They're told "Go away aliens!".
Then when convenient, the Jews stop being Semitic...they're Europeans !

This is exactly the reasons Jews need a country and protect their heritage on their OWN.


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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I'm sorry, your point escapes me. I am wondering if, in your view, the entitlement of Jews to own Palestine is or is not based on race.


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy and Monte, to sum up your argument, you claim that the Jews/Israelis don't have any right or connection to hold the Dead Sea scrolls.
> ...




But the 'other Jews' you have no problem with?


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
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> > Eloy said:
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I'll try to make it clear for You- we're talking HERITAGE. Genetics and Race relations have their intended forums.

How does entitlement to Palestine, DNA and Race appear here if not for the usual motive?


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
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> > Eloy said:
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There're Jews who returned to Israel from India, Ethiopia, Russia, Iran, Philippines and more...they might have looked differently but they brought with them the same unchanged heritage. And these scrolls are their scrolls of Torah.


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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No; I have no problem with Jews.


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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I'm sorry but when you wrote above "Even the link Monte attached proves you wrong- 80% at least are confirmed to be Middle Eastern." I assumed the 80% had some racial significance for you. You know, a racist justification for the Jews to have an exclusively Jewish state in Palestine.


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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With a strong Arab opposition in the Knesset, highest ranks in the army, law, finance, education and culture.
This point serves only to de-legitimize Israel. And not in anyway related to the discussion of the scrolls.


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## Hollie (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Israel is not exclusively Jewish. Odd how you litter the _racist_™ slogan throughout your posts when directed at Israel. Yet, you and an identifiable cabal are completely silent regarding the true racist, apartheid states - the islamist Middle Eastern dystopias - which have nearly purged competing religions from an entire portion of the planet.

Did you know that the KSA is 100℅ islamist? I wonder why that is?

I suppose those good folks in the KSA have had a collective epiphany.

Countries Compared by Religion > Islam > Percentage Muslim. International Statistics at NationMaster.com


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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If the ownership of the Dead Sea Scrolls belongs to Russian Jewish immigrants to Palestine on account of their racial purity as Jews then the argument is racist.


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## montelatici (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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> > rylah said:
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That is ridiculous.  That would mean that if Inuits converted en-masse to Judaism and decided to go to Palestine, they would be returning.  You people are delusional.


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## Hollie (Dec 28, 2016)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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Well, hell. As of five minutes ago, I'm a _Pal'istanian refugee™ _so I demand a chunk of that UN funded Islamic terrorist welfare money_. _Thanks_. _The right of return I can do without. Just give me the money.


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Again deflecting, this was not claimed by anyone. It's You who's brought up "racial purity"- why would you bring eugenics into discussion about Jewish scrolls?


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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It's ridiculous, yet you claim this actually happened. That it'a been such a great experience being Jews that people jumped at the opportunity.  Romans en-masse decided to convert to Judaism, a religion of slaves, loose all status, go through circumcision and become the enemies of Christianity.

Sure and let's not forget that all Jewish women are Italian, however the males somehow managed to remain 80% Mid Eastern- cause it haaaas to be logical


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## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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The Dead Sea Scrolls are in Hebrew, not Arabic.  End of story.


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## montelatici (Dec 28, 2016)

So, if Roman artifacts written in Latin are found in Israel, they would belong to Italy?


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## RoccoR (Dec 28, 2016)

Hey all,

You can't argue with these people; and you can't trust them to use any kind of educated judgment.



montelatici said:


> So, if Roman artifacts written in Latin are found in Israel, they would belong to Italy?


*(COMMENT)*

Remember !!  When you talk to an Arab Palestinian --- don't forget it is all about them.  It doesn't matter what it is about, or who did what when, or even the stuff being written in Hebrew --- it is all about the Arab Palestinian and treasure for the Arab Palestinian.   

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
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I did not introduce the notion that Europeans are Semites if they happen to be Jews.






Jewish Wehrmacht Private Werner Goldberg -- the image of an Aryan


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## Eloy (Dec 28, 2016)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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Not so; some of the scrolls are written in Aramaic and others in Greek.


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## montelatici (Dec 28, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Hey all,
> 
> You can't argue with these people; and you can't trust them to use any kind of educated judgment.
> 
> ...



No, you haven't an answer and you attack. My judgement is about 3 academic degrees superior to your's.


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## Shusha (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> I am wondering if, in your view, the entitlement of Jews to own Palestine is or is not based on race.



Entitlement to sovereignty on land upon which one's people and ancestors developed into a distinct and recognizable culture is based on an intrinsic human value, commonly labelled "self-determination".  It is based on both a self-identified association with that culture and an acceptance into the culture by that community. 

It is NOT a product of physical features, whether "blonde-haired and blue-eyed" or having the "correct" genetic material.

Nor does it depend on physical possession of the land (since the land can be invaded and conquered).


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## Shusha (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> If the ownership of the Dead Sea Scrolls belongs to Russian Jewish immigrants to Palestine on account of their racial purity as Jews then the argument is racist.



The ownership of the Scrolls belongs to those who adhere to the culture of those who wrote the scrolls and practiced their teachings.  

The only ones bringing up racial purity are the anti-Jew posters who argue against the existence of the culture of the Jewish people.  Its a vile argument.


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## rylah (Dec 28, 2016)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
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First you claimed Hebrew Torah scrolls don't belong to Jews but rather Vatican. After this was thrashed, now you claim Jews are Aryan and fixated on 'racial purity'... 

Do you want to be taken seriously?


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## rylah (Dec 29, 2016)

montelatici said:


> So, if Roman artifacts written in Latin are found in Israel, they would belong to Italy?



Didn't you know that everything in Israel is Arab Muslim?
Jerusalem is Al-Quds, Hebron is Al-Halil and the Hebrew Torah is a rewritten Koran...

Of course artefacts written in Latin could only belong to their true owners- Arab Muslims, who can't read a word of it.


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## Eloy (Dec 29, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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I did not claim that the scrolls belong to the Vatican but that the Vatican has a claim on them since the extinct community which created them were the progenitors of the Christian people.


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## rylah (Dec 29, 2016)

Eloy said:


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You can't claim that with certainty, it's not the scientific consensus anymore.  If suggested theories are to be taken such seriously then I can claim in the same way -  that the scrolls are of the Hasmonean origin.

For all we know for sure, there were found Mikva's at the site, which are Jewish ceremonial tools. Also the majority of the scrolls were written in Hebrew and are from the Torah.
.


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## Eloy (Dec 29, 2016)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Indeed we can say with certainty that Christianity began among Jews in Palestine whose first adherents were Jews. This makes the Vatican museum a fitting place for the Dead Sea Scrolls.


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## rylah (Jan 2, 2017)

Why don't You just move ALL Christian artifacts from Israel to Vatican?

Looks like You've just done a check mate to yourself.
I mean, You say it all began among Jews, who lived in 'Palestine' (which was still called Judea at the time). So these scrolls were written by Jews, as also shown by the ceremonial baths on site.
It's enough of reasons to keep it where it originated, among people who speak and cherish the Hebrew language, the places and the people that these scrolls write about.  


And indeed we can say with certainty, that Rome and now Vatican have ENOUGH of original Jewish artifacts plundered from the 2nd Temple period.


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## Eloy (Jan 2, 2017)

rylah said:


> Why don't You just move ALL Christian artifacts from Israel to Vatican?
> 
> Looks like You've just done a check mate to yourself.
> I mean, You say it all began among Jews, who lived in 'Palestine' (which was still called Judea at the time). So these scrolls were written by Jews, as also shown by the ceremonial baths on site.
> ...


I tend to agree with you that the Scrolls should stay where they originated in the modern West Bank.


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## rylah (Jan 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't You just move ALL Christian artifacts from Israel to Vatican?
> ...



Nice, seems the first time we agree.

However... hmm interesting how do the scrolls call that area?

Should we place them in Judea or West Bank, ירושלים or Al Quds?


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## Eloy (Jan 2, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Wherever the Palestinian government deems fit, I should imagine.


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## montelatici (Jan 2, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Depends on when they were written.


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## Hollie (Jan 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Which of the feckless Pal'istanian governments should make that determination. If there is a profit margin connected to possession of artifacts, both Hamas and Abbas will want to control that profit.


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## rylah (Jan 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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You avoided my question- what do the scrolls call the area they originated from? Do they tell the story of Palestine or of Israel and Judea?


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## rylah (Jan 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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How does that change anything?
The Hebrew scrolls still didn't mention any Al Quds or Palestinians,


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## Eloy (Jan 3, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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At the time, Palestine was a province of Rome.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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rylah:  The scrolls themselves call the area Judea and/or Israel.

Eloy:  In the first century of the Common Era, Judea was a province of Rome.  Hadrian didn't rename the area Palestine until at least 100 years later.


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## Eloy (Jan 3, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
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Not quite, ForeverYoung; the Roman Province of Judea was founded in 6 CE but the scrolls were written over a long period estimated from as early as the last three centuries BCE to the first century CE. So the question as to what the area was called changes, depending on which scroll is meant. I do not know what any of the scrolls called the area.


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## rylah (Jan 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Could You quote from the scrolls themselves, where they call the area Palestine?


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## Eloy (Jan 3, 2017)

rylah said:


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I'm sorry; I do not have a copy of the Scrolls.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


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I just looked it up on Wikipedia.  40% of the Scrolls are fragments of the Tanach (Hebrew Bible); 30% of them are from the Apocrypha; and 30% are Essene writings of a mystical nature.  Most of the Scrolls are in Hebrew, with a few in Aramaic and Greek.  (None in Arabic.)  23 of the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible are represented, with Esther being the sole exception.  Since most of the Scrolls are from the Tanach and Apocrypha, I'm fairly certain that they refer to the area in question as Israel or Judah/Judea, and not as Palestine.


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## Eloy (Jan 3, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
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Judea and Sumeria later became known as Palestine. This was centuries before Islam was founded. Most Palestinians converted to Islam and began to use Arabic quite some time later.


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## rylah (Jan 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Of course You have, it's as far away as a click on a mouse.
Here: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah
they even have English translation of each verse.

The 1st verse says: 
*Chapter 1 : Verse 1*

_"The vision of Isaiah son of Amoz, which he saw concerning *Judah* and *Jerusalem* in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Yehizqiyah, kings of *Judah*."_

Translation: Professor Peter Flint (Western Trinity University, Canada) and Professor Eugene Ulrich (University of Notre Dame).

Now that You have resources available, if You find 'Al Quds' or 'Palestine' in there let me know.


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## Eloy (Jan 4, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Yes, Palestine was called Judea during the writing of some of the scrolls. I said as much. At the same time, I do not want to give time to studying Jewish scriptures, if you don't mind. You see, i think it is all _hocus pocus_.


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

What makes the Muslim Palestinians think they have the right to own any type of historical Christian documents?
They don't.


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


> What makes the Muslim Palestinians think they have the right to own any type of historical Christian documents?
> They don't.



The Christian Palestinians want the Christian historical documents. They have every right.


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > What makes the Muslim Palestinians think they have the right to own any type of historical Christian documents?
> ...



No they don't have that right.
It's not theirs and never has been nor will it ever be.


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


> montelatici said:
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The Christians don't have the right to Christian historical documents?


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> peach174 said:
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Not the Palenstians, who never became a State, until recently.
It has and always will belong to the Jewish Christians.


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


> montelatici said:
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The Jewish Christians?  Who are they? Is that a cult that I am not aware of?


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

You have to hand it to the Jews, they choose the "creme de la creme" in terms of intelligence among their American supporters.


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> You have to hand it to the Jews, they choose the "creme de la creme" in terms of intelligence among their American supporters.




Seems you need a bit more education about the people who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls.
History and archology confirm who the Jewish Christian sect was.


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

The Jewish Christians wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls? Are you sure?  You say "History and archology" confirm "who the Christian Jewish sect was".  Is archology the study of arches?  If so, what would an archologist know about these Jewish Christians?


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## Eloy (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


> What makes the Muslim Palestinians think they have the right to own any type of historical Christian documents?
> They don't.


Palestinians were Jews at the time of the writing of the scrolls. This was before and during the beginning of the Christian religion and centuries before Islam.


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> peach174 said:
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> > What makes the Muslim Palestinians think they have the right to own any type of historical Christian documents?
> ...



Don't confuse her with facts.  I want her to explain who these Jewish Christians are.


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> peach174 said:
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> > What makes the Muslim Palestinians think they have the right to own any type of historical Christian documents?
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No they weren't.


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

And there are people that actually agree with her about these Jewish Christians. LOL


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Eloy said:
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If you need it explained then educate yourself and look it up at actual historical sites of who they were.

Don't take my word for it.


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

You mean the sites of the Jewish Christians? Are there any of these Jewish Christians around now?


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

So let me get this straight, these Jewish Christians are people that follow Judaism but believe in Jesus Christ?


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## Eloy (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


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Thanks for that worthy contradiction.


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> peach174 said:
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No contradiction.
FACT


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


> Eloy said:
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So you believe that Jewish Christians have more rights to Christian artifacts than Christian Christians. 

Can you point us to where the descendants of these Jewish Christians now live?


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> peach174 said:
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Christian, Christians?


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## montelatici (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


> montelatici said:
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Well, to differentiate them from your Jewish Christians.


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## Hossfly (Jan 4, 2017)

peach174 said:


> montelatici said:
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OMG, that sqiawlomg parrot does go on and on and on.  His owners must have tied him to his perch that by now he is getting hemorrhoids.

Why don't we ask the Messianic Jews what they feel should be done with the scrolls since petty people can't seem to let go of this topic here?  It seems to be killing them that Israel will get something.  Before you know it, they will drag it up to over 1000 posts.


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## peach174 (Jan 4, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> peach174 said:
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I know it's so unbelievable but incredibly hilarious.


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## Phoenall (Jan 5, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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 Have you seen Shirley Temper that well known arab muslim actress. Blonde haired and blue eyed, does this mean she is not a palestinian ?

 You do know how natural selection works dont you, and how quickly you get results


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## Phoenall (Jan 5, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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 YES  and by doing so it eliminates one of your many libels against the Jews


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## Challenger (Jan 5, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Since the scrolls describe the Jewish equivalent of Tolkein's Middle Earth, it's not likely you'd find real locations described. 

That said, the modern day Palestinians have a greater link to the locations mentioned  than the modern day European colonists who need them to somehow "legitimise" their existance.


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## Challenger (Jan 5, 2017)

peach174 said:


> What makes the Muslim Palestinians think they have the right to own any type of historical Christian documents?
> They don't.



Bugger, that means we'll have to give all those documents we found along Hadrian's wall to the Italians...


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## montelatici (Jan 5, 2017)

peach174 said:


> Hossfly said:
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What is hilarious is your claim that Christian historical documents belong to your mythical Jewish Christians.


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## peach174 (Jan 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


> peach174 said:
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You are lacking in knowledge.


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## montelatici (Jan 5, 2017)

peach174 said:


> montelatici said:
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Now that's funny.  Where do these Jewish Christians live these days?


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## peach174 (Jan 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


> peach174 said:
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Why don't you go look that up and then get back to us for a real discussion.


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## montelatici (Jan 5, 2017)

peach174 said:


> montelatici said:
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LOL.  So, I should look up where these Jewish Christians live.


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## Phoenall (Jan 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


> peach174 said:
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 YUUUP   and see how stupid you look on here


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
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This argument is pointless, since the territorial description of the area  in the scrolls is very detailed and accurate. Places like Beer Sheba, Hebron, Gat, Megiddo and Jerusalem to name a few.
However still no Al Quds or palestine and not one word in Arabic.

Jews were as much Palestinians as their Arab neighbors. Many have established long standing communities in the Galilee, Jerusalem, Hebron and other areas long before the Zionist political movement. Therefore as You said the palestinians have a great connection to those locations- Palestinian Jews- no less. And them being Israeli citizens, Hebrew speakers and keepers of the heritage of the scrolls, makes it perfect justice for those Palestinian Jews, that the scrolls are held by Israel.

If You claim Palestinians have a connection, You can't deny it to the Palestinian Jews living in Israel.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Yes, but the Jews AND THE SCROLLS still called it Judea- for 2000 years. Even the Romans did for a hundred or so years before the revolts.

You don't have to be a detective or "study" the scriptures to see the unquestionable connection between Israel and these scrolls.
Palestinians and the original Philistines are clearly the enemies of everything these scrolls stand for.

*Do You know who stole the Ark of the Covenant according to the scrolls?*


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

How can the Palestinian Muslims and Christians, many of whose ancestors previously practiced Judaism and are the native indigenous people of Palestine have less right to the documents than people whose whose ancestors are from other continents?


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## koshergrl (Jan 7, 2017)

PurpleOwl said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
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That's not how reasonable people view these issues. Your grasp of history, and religion, is sadly skewed by your mental illness.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


> How can the Palestinian Muslims and Christians, many of whose ancestors previously practiced Judaism and are the native indigenous people of Palestine have less right to the documents than people whose whose ancestors are from other continents?



Again Jews were as much Palestinians as other people. When You advocate for Palestinian connection You're talking about Jews too.
Since the Jews are the keepers of the language, heritage and culture of the scrolls and since many Palestinian Jews are citizens of Israel, the scrolls have no better location and treatment than in Israel.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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No, I would fail your test on the mythical Ark of the Covenant.
Most people do not know if Judea was the only name given to the region in the scrolls dating over hundreds of years and you must understand that in discussions like this, without scholarly citations, it is asking us to take your word alone.
What is of paramount significance is that the scrolls were discovered in the modern state of Palestine and should be in the care of the Palestinians. It has to be borne in mind, however, that Palestine is under constant siege and brutal occupation by the Israelis so nothing and no-one is safe there.


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## Shusha (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


> How can the Palestinian Muslims and Christians, many of whose ancestors previously practiced Judaism and are the native indigenous people of Palestine have less right to the documents than people whose whose ancestors are from other continents?



The guardianship of a cultural heritage belongs to those who are of that cultural heritage.  Seriously, its not rocket science.  How can you possibly not understand this most obvious of facts?


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

koshergrl said:


> PurpleOwl said:
> 
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> > Eloy said:
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Oddly enough, I would not give the time of day to a stranger who accuses me of having a mental illness. You will not hear from me again.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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This Board is not a Master's thesis that need citations.  There is such a concept known as Common Knowledge, and another known as Common Sense.  Since more than 70% of the Scrolls are fragments either of the Hebrew bible (known to Christians as the Old Testament) and/or the Apocrypha, then there could be no doubt that the works in question refer to the area as either Israel or Judah.  Sometimes the area is called Canaan.  Have you never read the Old Testament?  It seems not.  The works were found in the Judean Desert.  They are mostly in Hebrew, not in Arabic.  The Palestinians are just trying to erase all Jewish connection to the Land.


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > How can the Palestinian Muslims and Christians, many of whose ancestors previously practiced Judaism and are the native indigenous people of Palestine have less right to the documents than people whose whose ancestors are from other continents?
> ...



The Zionists that conquered Palestine were Europeans and the Sephardic are from Spain, Portugal and North Africa and their genetic connection to the people that wrote scrolls is minimal for the former and far less than that of the Palestinians for the latter. The scrolls were found in the West Bank I understand, they should remain in the West Bank and should belong to the closest descendants of the people who wrote them, regardless of what religion the closest descendants adopted.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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C'mon You need scholary sources to understand that scrolls of Bible written in Hebrew have direct connections to Israeli Jews and Christians?

The scrolls have much deeper past than last century, and it leads it directly to Jews.
Tell me is Hebrew, Torah, Jewish culture or Jews anyhow represented or respected in Arab Palestinian govt? Or any any Arab country, as Arab culture represented in Israel?


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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I have never come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land. I do know that the corollary is true that Israelis have erased all Arabic names and sometimes villages themselves is an effort to prove that Arab Palestinians were never there and have no claim on any part of Israel and now many parts of the Occupied Territories.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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I would like a citation or two that Qumran is always referred to in the Dead Sea Scrolls as Judea; yes.
I recall staying for a while in Morocco and met there a friendly Jewish shopkeeper whom I would visit on trips to the town. The impression I had was that she and her family lived unmolested by the government or anyone else. Jews have lived in the West Bank for thousands of years, as have Christians, and more latterly, converts to Islam. I hope that can happen again but it cannot be so unless Israel ends its Zionist occupation or forsake the sectarian nature of Israel as an exclusively Jewish state.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


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However Israeli Jews, be them Sephardi, Yemenite, Iraqi or Ashkenazi are still the only people who study this scrolls and their heritage daily in the most secular schools. Like they did for thousands of years no matter here they were expelled to.

Even if Your theory was correct, You conveniently forget the Jews that lived in Palestine, to whom the European and Middle Eastern Jews later rejoined.


Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/science/1.681385


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
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The vast majority of Israelis owe their ancestry to Middle and Eastern Europe. There is no sense in which a Russian Jew who immigrates to the Occupied Territories and as soldiers humiliate and kill indigenous Palestinians are "rejoining" anyone.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Are You lazy on google today?
Search for the borders of Judea tribe in the Torah, match with the maps- done.

I've already given You enough crushing evidences. 
No need to address all this speculation and deflection.
I'm not going to change the course and the subject every time You avoid straight questions.

I have thousands of years of residence, heritage and learning from such scriptures.
You have speculation relying on recent modern political games.


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


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News reports generally fail to dig deep into scientific studies.

"The result was very clear-cut, the authors say: As reported online today in _Nature Communications_, more than 80% of Ashkenazi mtDNAs had their origins thousands of years ago in Western Europe, during or before Biblical times—and in some cases even before farming came to that part of the continent some 7500 years ago. The closest matches were with mtDNAs from people who today live in and around Italy. The results imply that the Jews can trace their heritage to women who had lived in Europe at that time. Very few Ashkenazi mtDNAs could be traced to the Middle East..... Jews have traditionally considered that the mother determines the ethnic identity of her children. If being Jewish is defined as genetically descending from the Israelites through the maternal line, then many Ashkenazi Jews fail the test,"

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-modern-jews-originate-italy



Look, if descendants of European converts to Judaism feel Jewish, though they are not ethnically such, that's fine with me.  But to oppress the descendants of the people that are the real descendants of the native people of Palestine, many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism (among other religions), because of their current religion does not make sense to me.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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You may very well be an expert on Dead Sea Scrolls exegesis and all about them in which case you will know that they were discovered in the West Bank where, in justice, they belong. I granted that they are not so safe there, given the brutal occupation by the Israelis.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Yet again so much drama wishing to change the subject- THE SCROLLS.
Jews from Russia who suffered for centuries but still remained Jewish have much more claim to the scrolls, than people who have a basic aim to OBLITERATE Judaism. No matter the origin. European Jews can at least read and explain You what the scrolls are about.

However and anyway this obsession with Ashkenazi Jews is actually the weak point in Your propaganda. The vast majority of Israelis today are of Israeli origin.

And REMEMBER: The Cohen-Levi gene was spread unchanged among all communities. A Cohen who came from Europe after 2000 yrs of excile would have that same gene as a Cohen who lived in the Middle East.
And even without it Ashkenazi Jews although have traces of European DNA, have enough similarity with the local surrounding population of ME.

If You want to claim that Jews are Russians, ask them and tell me what's the response  Furthermore I'd like to stay on topic -THE SCROLLS.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Yes but at the time they were written it was Judea.

What an ignorance, on one hand You claim You don't know much about the message of the scrolls and not willing to even touch that.
Yet on the other hand You're willing to ignore clear historical facts in favor of some modern political shenanigans.

I tell You as an Israeli Jew- we study this texts for centuries and even today in each secular schools. The Palestinians are the enemies of that heritage. You have no valid say, opinion or jurisdiction. My heritage, my language and my people. Mind Your crosses and obelisks.


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

Well the current Nova Roma pagans might say the same thing about Roman artifacts.  They may say Italians, now Christians, have no right to the artifacts because they are enemies of that heritage.  But, it really isn't the case.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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> > rylah said:
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I will try not to dwell on your change of the subject concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls. You are writing about Russian pogroms and no-one doubts they happened. I would agree that they represent attempts to destroy Judaism in Russia. To use the persecution of Russian Jews as establishing a right of their ownership of the Dead Sea Scrolls over that of the Palestinian people who are indigenous to Qumran is false. You also overstate the skills of Russian Jews to be able to read and interpret the scholarly ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It is one of the insults visited upon the Palestinians to be treated like dogs by soldiers of the Israel Defense Force who can hardly understand modern Hebrew as they give orders with thick Russian accents.

The vast majority of Israelis are only a very few generations away from Polish, Ukrainian, Belorussian, etc.. European origin.

I refuse to get into a characterization of people by bogus racist doctrine such as your reference to Cohen-Levi. Unlike Zionists, I reject racism. Like the Nazi's pursuit of racial Aryan purity, it is a dead end, one that can generate torment of completely innocent people such as the children and families of Gaza.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Well the current Nova Roma pagans might say the same thing about Roman artifacts.  They may say Italians, now Christians, have no right to the artifacts because they are enemies of that heritage.  But, it really isn't the case.



So if it isn't the case in Your example than why bringing it up?
Here it's THE CASE- as claimed by the Palestinians themselves.

Show me one time when the Palestinians respected anything Jewish.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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> > Eloy said:
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It was You who brought up the 'ethnic purity' (and still do above) not me. Claiming 'Aryan looking Jews'. That was the level You brought to the conversation.
 All I do is show that the Jews have everything covered there also.

Nothing original or remotely related to the subject of history and heritage of archaeological artifacts. Your opinions here are irrelevant.

The mere presence of the Hebrew scrolls means the area was Jewish.
Written in Hebrew, talking about Jews and found in Judea.

Do You have better place for Jewish scrolls rather than Judea Jerusalem?


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Your whole argument is racist. You are at ease defending a sectarian state. The very concept of Zionism is on the wrong side of history and has within it the source of its own destruction, just as Nazism was destroyed, and racist South Africa. I see nothing but sorrow for a country that was supposed to be a safe home for Jews who have been making the Palestinians pay the price for such an evil doctrine. Next to the unbelievable sectarian racism of Israel, where the Dead Sea Scrolls reside is of little importance.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Nothing racist about discussing language, heritage and history.
Talking about physical appearance and blood as a characterization of Jews was YOUR contribution. You cannot blame me now for trying to speak on Your level, in You terms and language.

I guess You have nothing on the subject except for the old fashioned slogans, and that's why You throw at me ad hominem that has nothing in relation to the SCROLLS.


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## Hossfly (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Well, Eloy, since you appear obsessed with these scrolls and nothing else going on in the Middle East, why not ask these folks who they would rather see safeguard them?

The Last Days of Christ - First Presbyterian Church

BTW, when these scrolls were written, there were no sign of Arabs in the Holy Land.

Doc's Talk: A TOUR OF PALESTINE; THE YEAR IS 1695

In fact, Eloy, icons from the 2nd to the 4th AD were touring the U.S.  St. Catherine's Church in the Sinai was kind enough to send these icons over.  From the icons, you can discern that Christians in Egypt were very religious.  However, you will not see one  Arab in any of the icons since they were still on the Arabian Peninsula.


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
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You are confusing Arab with Arabian.  It is like confusing Hispanic with Spaniard.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


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Naturally, I regret that my analysis and statement of the unpalatable truth about the Zionists has not persuaded you. I am not surprised. I fault you only on your commitment to Zionism, not you personally. It would take a better man than me to undo what you have been conditioned to believe. Forgive me for trying.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

Hossfly said:


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Actually, I have written all I care to about the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have nothing more to add.


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned.  The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought  like Rylah.  They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over.  Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better.  Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


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So You admit that the sole purpose of Your 'argument' here was to persuade me against Jews having their presence in Israel..
I'm not surprised You barely touched the subject at hand- THE SCROLLS.

You see, Roman would wipe out peoples who rebelled twice. Judea rebelled 3 times and we are still Jewish!.
How funny is the fact that You were even thinking that You had any chance...ON SUCH A SUBJECT.

You see there's nothing new You can throw at 4000 yrs of heritage and knowledge.


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## Hossfly (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Has the squawking parrot been on his perch all day?  Meanwhile, if you get a chance and the icons are still touring, you will hear viewers make the remark that there are no Arabs depicted in the icons.  Those Arabs came later.

History of Jihad against the Egyptian Coptic Christians (640)


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned.  The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought  like Rylah.  They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over.  Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better.  Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.



If by "naturally conditioned" You mean Jewish education then maybe.
Why would a Jew advocate for the oldest Torah scrolls be held by anyone else than the Jewish homeland?

Your moral judgment of me is even funnier since much of Your values and morals were given You by MY PEOPLE. By the very same scrolls. And You still don't see the circles You run around.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned.  The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought  like Rylah.  They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over.  Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better.  Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.


You are forgetting what happened in the 20th century. The world is a different place than it was when President Polk made a huge land grab of Mexican territory in the 19th century when it was not illegal to acquire land through war not to move the population of the victors into the land of the vanquished. There will not be peace in an apartheid Israel, not today and not in a hundred years.


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
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You really are too stupid to participate in this conversation. Go away.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned.  The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought  like Rylah.  They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over.  Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better.  Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.
> ...



If You'd read the scrolls You'd understand that were're not expecting too much calm anyway. Just read the scrolls so You can call Yourself an overall educated person. Knowing the Bible is not a shame, it's a great insight into current geopolitical and cultural conflict.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Yes I did try to persuade you through the cogency of my argument, in the beginning to accept that all humanity own the Dead Sea Scrolls and that their residence could be anywhere where they could be studied. I mentioned the Vatican on the grounds that Christianity developed from Judaism.

Of course I could see that you were claiming that modern Jews have the greatest claim because they are the writing of a Jewish sect (now extinct) and you further claimed all along that the European Jews, including those who seem very Aryan, were the same people who had lived in Palestine thousands of years ago. You believe that these European Jews are Semites with a claim on the territory of Palestine. I attempted to show you that your argument is almost bizarre and certainly racist and sectarian. I ended by stating that I see things differently from you. I accept that. There can be no meeting of our minds on the fundamental nature of Zionism and, by comparison, the minor matter of the best location for the Dead Sea Scrolls.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
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Please, that is an unkind remark, montelatici.


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## montelatici (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Rylah is a good guy. He is reasonable but he is naturally conditioned.  The Anglos that conquered Texas and fought at the Alamo thought  like Rylah.  They were conditioned to believe that they had the right to replace the Mexicans that lived in Texas and take over.  Maybe Israel will be successful and 100 years from now they will have eliminated the non-Jew's resistance and will control the area without resistance and when they look at the history they will say, heck we were really wrong, but now everything is better.  Somehow I think the demographics are not so positive, but who knows.
> ...



I understand you.  You are obviously proud of your heritage. But our heritage and morals were given to us by the fellow who told us that an eye for eye was wrong and that we should turn the other cheek.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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You try to disagree so hard that You have to change what I presented.
The scrolls are historical cultural artifact, and I'm arguing on the basis of heritage and culture.
Then You go and try to inject the OP with other subjects, that you're more familiar with but have no connection to my point.
You see You have very little understanding of Judaism and the Bible- the core issue here. So You re frame it endlessly so You feel more convenient.

So if You want a discussion, first make a clear distinction between what I actually stated and what You think You heard because of Your cultural biases.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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I do not think trying to study fragments of old scrolls will help change my mind. They seem to be of value only to Biblical scholars and beliefs of the sect who produced them. We are never educated enough.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Your criticism is unfair.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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And how did that work for the numbers of Christian population in the ME recently?
Maybe it's because You received a message through the Roman empire that persecuted Christians for centuries. Only to decide later that they had the last word on everything Christian.

An now You claim You have a say, because there's nothing wrong with Romans Catholics dictating Jews and Jewish Christians once again what to do with their heritage?

Thats Chutzpah in its' essence.


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## Hossfly (Jan 7, 2017)

montelatici said:


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I think the squawking parrot gets off on calling people idiots, morons, stupid, etc.  The thing is that by now many of the readers are aware that the reason the squawking parrot spams so much is because he thinks that each day will bring him new readers that will read his demonization of Israel.  After all, are the regular readers going to read this same spam over and over?

I guess I will have to throw Polly here a few crackers  so he can sit quietly and think up a few more names to people why disagree with him.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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Did I just read a justification for not reading a text that's at the core of our argument?
Then what do You have to add to the subject?

Ignorance is bliss.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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No, the argument was about where the scrolls belong. No-one disputed their origin from a sect of Jews.
I have not once insulted you but you assume the right to insult me more than once. That is no way to win an argument.
I have nothing more to add.


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## rylah (Jan 7, 2017)

Eloy said:


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I haven't used any foul word towards but You jumped into discussion ABOUT TORAH SCROLLS  with Your comparison of Jews to Aryans.Undermining Jews claiming they have no connection to the Israel or the scrolls.
*
You're not fooling anyone here playing the victim of insult.*

And I won the argument with simple facts and common sense.
But to be fair  You tried to support a very vulgar and weak argument from its' inception.


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## Eloy (Jan 7, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Have it your own way.


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## Shusha (Jan 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I have never come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land.



Your ignorance is astounding.  Here ya go:

_There is not [even] the smallest indication of the existence of a Jewish Temple on this place in the past. In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history... The Jews cannot legitimately claim [the Western] wall, neither religiously nor historically. The Committee of the League of Nations recommended in 1930, to allow the Jews to pray there, in order to keep them quiet. But by no means did it acknowledge that the wall belongs to them._ 

That was the Mufti of Jerusalem.  Want more?  I got more.  There is LOTS where that came from.  Now, that you are enlightened, does that change your point of view at all?


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## Eloy (Jan 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I have never come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land.
> ...


I have no wish nor intention of being rude but since you on a previous topic and two other people in this thread have accused me of being uneducated, ignorant, vulgar, etc., I''m afraid I am at a loss for words. In my life, I have never had a discussion, debate, or an exchange of views with strangers who adopt such an attitude and use such a disrespectful tone. Do you honestly expect a civil answer when you write of my ignorance as you did? Heavens above!


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## Phoenall (Jan 8, 2017)

montelatici said:


> How can the Palestinian Muslims and Christians, many of whose ancestors previously practiced Judaism and are the native indigenous people of Palestine have less right to the documents than people whose whose ancestors are from other continents?









 Because they did not exist at the time the scrolls were written, so how could they have any rights to them. This is like saying that the English ( invaders and immigrants ) owned Stonehenge because they arrived thousands of years later


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## Phoenall (Jan 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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 And even when the evidence shows they have no rights to the lands you still push the LIES. You are the typical brainwashed stooge parroting the words you are told in an attempt at gaining support. The land was never arab muslim no matter what you call the illegal immigrants living there


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## Shusha (Jan 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I have no wish nor intention of being rude but since you on a previous topic and two other people in this thread have accused me of being uneducated, ignorant, vulgar, etc., I''m afraid I am at a loss for words. In my life, I have never had a discussion, debate, or an exchange of views with strangers who adopt such an attitude and use such a disrespectful tone. Do you honestly expect a civil answer when you write of my ignorance as you did? Heavens above!



Well, to be fair, you announced you were no longer talking to me because I used a swear word (*gasp*), not because I accused you of being ignorant.  In this instance you, yourself, admitted that you were not aware of certain aspects of the dialogue.  I did not insult you for this lack of awareness (though I did express my sheer surprise!) and proceeded to inform you.  So, no harm, no foul, right? 

What I expect of people willing to participate on a debate forum is to address the content of the posts.  I expect them to be willing to absorb new information and incorporate it into their thinking and arguments.  

So now that you are no longer unaware of the deliberate Arab Muslim rejection of the Jewish connection to the holy places, does this change your point of view?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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Eloy, I actually think you're kinda funny.  However, if you debate a subject, you should be somewhat knowledgeable in that subject.  For instance, I have been surprised over the years at the false statements many of the posters here have made, until I realized many of them have never been to Israel and/or Palestine.  Since you decided to debate these Scrolls, I thought you had some knowledge of the subject.  I'm not an expert myself, but I had been to a Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition once, had some knowledge of the Essene sect, but most important of all, I have read the Hebrew Bible, which makes up the main bulk of the Scrolls.  That's basically all you need--a basic knowledge of the Tanach/Hebrew Bible--not any scholarly citations.  So come back with some basic knowledge, although it may be less cute on your part.


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## Eloy (Jan 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I have no wish nor intention of being rude but since you on a previous topic and two other people in this thread have accused me of being uneducated, ignorant, vulgar, etc., I''m afraid I am at a loss for words. In my life, I have never had a discussion, debate, or an exchange of views with strangers who adopt such an attitude and use such a disrespectful tone. Do you honestly expect a civil answer when you write of my ignorance as you did? Heavens above!
> ...


I do consider swearing at a person to be disrespectful. A lot of that happens here and I add to my ignore list regularly. I actually cannot remember what you wrote but it was enough foe me to try having a dialog with you in whatever thread that was. I did not place you on ignore because I continued wanting to to read what you had to say. I had not noticed that you are in the habit of F-ing and Blinding other posters and that it might have been a momentary lapse of manners on your part.

I regret I do not meet your own standards of what you expect of others in a debate.

As for what you offer as proof that Palestinians (in general or officially in PLO statements) consider that Jews have no connection with the Holy Land, you quote the Mufti of Jerusalem from somewhere sometime saying that a wall was never part of a Jewish Temple in that part of Jerusalem. From my reading of the Wikipedia article, there is reason to believe from the Bible and another Roman source that there was a temple there and the wall was built as an expansion of Temple Mount in preparation for a larger temple. Technically, then, the wall was not part of a Jewish Temple and there is no stone belonging to any Jewish Temple there as far as we know. But the remaining part of the Western Wall would appear to be as Jewish as Herod the Great so the Mufti is on shaky ground, so to speak, to make the claim that: "In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history", if that is indeed what he said.

Now, it is a far cry from the hyperbole of a Muslim cleric, albeit an important one, in an effort to prevent Jews from owning the Western Wall to say that Palestinians believe this, and even if they do, extrapolating from a part of a supporting wall at Temple Mount to the entire Holy Land is reading too much into it. My statement was that I had not come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land and the Mufti's archaeological opinion about Jerusalem does not constitute such a widespread attitude among Palestinians or the PLO.


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## Shusha (Jan 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I do consider swearing at a person to be disrespectful.



To be fair -- I didn't swear AT you.  I just used a *cough cough* colorful word to describe your argument.  Not actually intended to be disrespectful of you.  Just your argument.  If you can appreciate the difference.  Grin.


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## Shusha (Jan 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ...the Mufti is on shaky ground, so to speak, to make the claim that: "In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history",...



Yes.  Yes, he is.  Thank you for acknowledging that.


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## Shusha (Jan 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> My statement was that I had not come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land and the Mufti's archaeological opinion about Jerusalem does not constitute such a widespread attitude among Palestinians or the PLO.



So how many statements, and by whom, would constitute a widespread attitude?  

Why don't we start with the idea that Jews are not allowed to pray at their most holy site?  Would that represent a "widespread attitude" to you?


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## Eloy (Jan 8, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
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I may not have any expert knowledge of the Dead Sea Scrolls but that does not disqualify me from having an opinion about the proper place to house archaeological artifacts. Generally, I believe they belong where made such as the Parthenon Marbles belonging in Greece, not London, and the Rosetta Stone should be in Egypt, not London. Similarly the Dead Sea Scrolls belong in Qumran or at least somewhere in Palestine. I reject modern peoples declaring ownership of any archaeological artifacts which are the property of everyone and only held in trust for humanity by their curators.


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## Eloy (Jan 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > My statement was that I had not come across the notion that the Palestinians want to erase all Jewish connection with the Holy Land and the Mufti's archaeological opinion about Jerusalem does not constitute such a widespread attitude among Palestinians or the PLO.
> ...


Under the current conditions of brutal occupation and blockade of Palestine by the Israelis, I believe it is best to wait until there is peace in the Holy Land before we can allow ourselves to expect respect for ordinary people's desire to get on with their lives unmolested. I do not see that happening soon. In the meantime, all we can do is promote justice in whatever way we can and support those who struggle for their rights. With wisdom, everyone can be accommodated even where conflicting attitudes run deep. Sadly, the outlook for the Holy Land is bleak.


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## Phoenall (Jan 9, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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So what you are saying is you would see no problems in depositing American history with Russia, then say that a civilizations artifacts should be with the people involved and not some third party. Are you aware of the size of palestine, and not the paltry little piece you believe is its full extent, it takes in all of Jordan and parts of Saudi, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. If I was to say your family history has to be deposited in the crack house down the road because they have said they will allow full access you would have no problem with it.............................


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## Phoenall (Jan 9, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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 What brutal occupation is that then, seeing as the UN and its lap dogs have found no grounds to say this is the case. Resort to violence and you will get violence coming right back at you. The answer has been in the arab muslims hands since 1948 and they refuse to take it on board. Stopping all acts of violence and belligerence for 1 year will automatically bring about the lifting of the blockade and the end of occupation. It will also introduce free determination and having to stand on their own. This would mean having to pay taxes and start negotiations on peace and mutual borders


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## rylah (Jan 9, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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One thing for sure - Jews are anything but what You call 'modern peoples'. The scrolls themselves are a prove.
What You advocate here is for the scrolls to be held by ANYONE except the Jews.

If You reject modern peoples' claim on historical artifacts- Your main heroes here are the modern Palestinians, who chose to be called Palestinians only in the last 100 years.


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## Eloy (Jan 9, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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Your statement that Jews are not modern people makes no sense. Jews are a modern people who are among those who identify with a religion which has roots in the past similar to Christians and Muslims in this sense. Your meta message which is that Jews in Minnesota have a stronger claim on the Dead Sea Scrolls than, for example, Palestinian Christians, because American Jews are not people of the modern era but a throwback to an extinct Jewish cult which lived in Qumran millennia ago. This is farcical.


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## Lipush (Jan 9, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Oh please, so now JEws have no religious freedom due to "the occupation", while they (UN, National community etc), keep pumping Israel about the need of "equal rights to all"?

Good thing that the right of worship is not included here.

Now THAT's fair. NOT.


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## Phoenall (Jan 9, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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 It makes perfect sense when you realise your only claim to this is some mid 20C novel that first names the khzars as ever existing. The Jews are the founders of Christianity and islam in as much as their religion is the basis for both of these. And the methods employed in a Minnesota Synagogue would not be alien to Jesus, Moses and Joseph


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## rylah (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
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But we're not talking about Jews in Minnesota, were're talking about Jews in Judea, Israel. Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Christians are among them. They ALL have a reason to keep the scrolls in Israel.

But let's use Your example in a similar situation, let's talk about Yazidis, Kurds and Druze minorities that live in the ME under the rule of Sunni or Shia muslims.
What if their original historical writing were found under those regimes that are intolerable of other ethnicities and religions?
Would those artifacts have better care among Yazidis or say Shia Iraqis?

Do Kurds and Armenians from Berlin have more claim to the works of their ancestors than Turks?

If You choose the later than You're totally inconsiderable towards the situation of minorities in the ME.


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## montelatici (Jan 10, 2017)

It has nothing to do with minorities or majorities.  Under your scenario,  Italians, particularly Romans, would have more claim to Roman artifacts found anywhere in the world than the country in which they were found.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 10, 2017)

montelatici said:


> It has nothing to do with minorities or majorities.  Under your scenario,  Italians, particularly Romans, would have more claim to Roman artifacts found anywhere in the world than the country in which they were found.



Yes, the Italians would have more claim to them IMO.  There are Roman ruins in Caesaria, Israel.  I wouldn't mind it at all if they were all transported back to Rome.


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## montelatici (Jan 10, 2017)

At least you are consistent.  But I doubt the Israelis would agree.


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## Shusha (Jan 10, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > It has nothing to do with minorities or majorities.  Under your scenario,  Italians, particularly Romans, would have more claim to Roman artifacts found anywhere in the world than the country in which they were found.
> ...



Ditto.  But, let's be practical, as well.  Moving ancient buildings or monuments is much less practical than moving manuscripts.  

There is no reason for Arab Muslims to have an interest in ancient Hebrew manuscripts.  Just as there would be no good reason for Israelis to have an interest in ancient Arabic writings.  And in a land which is, at best, shared between two peoples -- each people should have guardianship over their own cultural history.  

Why anyone would argue against that is beyond me.  And lets be honest here, Muslims don't exactly have a great history of respecting the monuments of other religious faiths.


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
> ...


Few people, especially, historians and academics would condone your extreme commitment to racist appropriation of historical artifacts. Arabs in Morocco do not have any right to claim ownership of the Alhambra which is in Granada and that Spanish city is where it stays despite hooligan vandalism by visitors since the glories of Al Andaluz. It is true that documents are more portable than glazed tiles but the removal of the Dead Sea Scrolls from the location where they were created in the West Bank is theft by the Israelis who claim ownership on the grounds that Israelis are Jews by their constitution if not in reality. Whoever stole this world heritage belongs behind bars.


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## Shusha (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Few people, especially, historians and academics would condone your extreme commitment to racist appropriation of historical artifacts. Arabs in Morocco do not have any right to claim ownership of the Alhambra which is in Granada and that Spanish city is where it stays despite hooligan vandalism by visitors since the glories of Al Andaluz. It is true that documents are more portable than glazed tiles but the removal of the Dead Sea Scrolls from the location where they were created in the West Bank is theft by the Israelis who claim ownership on the grounds that Israelis are Jews by their constitution if not in reality. Whoever stole this world heritage belongs behind bars.



The whole point of the principle of the human right to safe-guarding cultural heritage is to distance them from the political domain and arbitrary political territorial boundaries.  

Intellectual property and cultural heritage belongs to those who belong to that cultural heritage.  The idea that cultural heritage belongs to whatever 

Why the hell would Arab Muslims WANT to hold the cultural heritage of another cultural group?  What is their motivation in doing so?  And what possible negative consequences would arise from permitting the cultural group which created the heritage to hold it, study it, explain it, transfer it to their children, etc?  

Your claim is so ridiculously kindergarten -- its in my sandbox, so its mine.  It does seem to cement the idea that the Jewish people absolutely must, in any agreement, maintain and protect its cultural heritage.  If your standard is that Israel must "own" all the physical territory in which any of the cultural heritage was discovered -- well then, so be it.


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Few people, especially, historians and academics would condone your extreme commitment to racist appropriation of historical artifacts. Arabs in Morocco do not have any right to claim ownership of the Alhambra which is in Granada and that Spanish city is where it stays despite hooligan vandalism by visitors since the glories of Al Andaluz. It is true that documents are more portable than glazed tiles but the removal of the Dead Sea Scrolls from the location where they were created in the West Bank is theft by the Israelis who claim ownership on the grounds that Israelis are Jews by their constitution if not in reality. Whoever stole this world heritage belongs behind bars.
> ...


I am a bit tired of you refusing to deal with my supporting arguments.
Deal with my example of the Alhambra belonging in Spain along with other artifacts of Al Andaluz, not Arab Muslims in Iraq.


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## Shusha (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I am a bit tired of you refusing to deal with my supporting arguments.
> Deal with my example of the Alhambra belonging in Spain along with other artifacts of Al Andaluz, not Arab Muslims in Iraq.



Your claim is that cultural heritage preferentially should be under the guardianship of the political entity currently in control of the territory in which the cultural heritage is found.  

I'm pointing out that is a lame argument. I've also pointed out the difference between tangible heritage (buildings and monuments) and intangible heritage which is portable.  

Why should the guardianship of cultural heritage be given to the owner of a piece of land, rather than to the people of the cultural heritage?


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## rylah (Jan 10, 2017)

montelatici said:


> It has nothing to do with minorities or majorities.  Under your scenario,  Italians, particularly Romans, would have more claim to Roman artifacts found anywhere in the world than the country in which they were found.



In the ME it has everything to do with minorities, this is a simple thing You don't seem to take in account looking through Your western eyes.
In Europe cultural borders are settled and clear, there's acceptance and pluralism. However not in the ME where physical borders change and tribal relations are still a major factor. When conflicts happen, and they do all the time, historical heritage of minorities is erased and people are forcefully converted.

You simply cannot compare the situation of Italy and Italians, where they banned new mosques, to the situation of Jews in their little piece of land in the ME, where they're clearly a minority.

But sure the keepers of the Roman culture should keep and present the most significant artifacts of their heritage. Not Germans, Russians or Jews.


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## rylah (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Funny how on one hand You claim historical artifacts belong to EVERY HUMAN, but then go and say that Jews 'stole' it.
Why when Jordanian put a Hebrew scroll in a museum it's fine, but when a Jew does it it's 'theft'?


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I am a bit tired of you refusing to deal with my supporting arguments.
> ...


Historical artifacts belong to everyone and international law requires that they be curated in trust for the people by the civil authority where they are found. For example, Roman coins found in Spain are studied there and on display in Spanish museums, not Italian museums.


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
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Read Post # 682. There is nothing funny about it.


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## Hossfly (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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Isn't is about time for you to get off your high horse?  If  you are not accusing posters of insulting you (when they realty haven't), or in this case you are a bit tired of Shusha (who has been so patient with you) because she is not marching to the same sick drummer in your head, why in the world have you gotten on the forum and parked yourself here?  Don't you think most of the readers got your number the minute you crawled out of the woodwork.


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
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> > Shusha said:
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You have just earned yourself a place on my 'ignore' list. Your habit of insulting and claiming to speak for others, I will neither see nor miss.


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## montelatici (Jan 10, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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> > Shusha said:
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Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
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> > Shusha said:
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Most of us appreciate Eloy's calm approach with dealing with Zionist maniacs.


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## rylah (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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Really? Did the Spanish people use Italian gravestones for..khhm khhm..TOILETS in any recent time??
Like the Jordanians did in occupied Judea:






Or use Jewish and Christian gravestones to pave roads and build walls:


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## Hossfly (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
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> > Eloy said:
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I'm honored.


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## José (Jan 10, 2017)

> Originally posted by *Montelatici*
> Most of us appreciate Eloy's calm approach with dealing with Zionist maniacs.



Indeed... but good ol' Hoss has a point.

The guy is *WAY* too thin-skinned.


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
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> > Shusha said:
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The shameful negligence of some to respect the the sacred artifacts that were their responsibility to care for should make us more determined not to do the same.


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## Shusha (Jan 10, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Historical artifacts belong to everyone and international law requires that they be curated in trust for the people by the civil authority where they are found.



Actually, "international law" is quite a bit more nuanced and detailed than that.


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *Montelatici*
> > Most of us appreciate Eloy's calm approach with dealing with Zionist maniacs.
> 
> 
> ...


I treat everyone with respect and I confess to having a weakness of demanding the same in return.


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## Eloy (Jan 10, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Historical artifacts belong to everyone and international law requires that they be curated in trust for the people by the civil authority where they are found.
> ...


The United Nations has made an effort to specifically name examples of international heritage worthy of protection.


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## Hossfly (Jan 10, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
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Oh lookie here.  A pea from the same pod is sticking  up for Eloy.  This pea for whom having a life is unimportant and who sits on his keester all day long demonizihg Israel calls those who don't march to the same sick drummer in his mind Zionist maniacs.  Too bad you don't realize the maniac is you.


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## montelatici (Jan 10, 2017)

Dear, dear.  A nutcase without a pot to pee in, and a dummy, tries to salvage his honor.


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## Hossfly (Jan 10, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Dear, dear.  A nutcase without a pot to pee in, and a dummy, tries to salvage his honor.


Speaking of nut cases, I suggest you go to a V.A. psychiatrist who will help you understand that it is not mentally healthy to spend your life in front of a computer demonizing Israel morning, noon and night,  Evidently you can't figure this out for yourself so you need help.


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## Phoenall (Jan 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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Not the same thing as the muslims were invaders of Spain and so have no claim to anything now found there. The same in Qumran the arab muslims invaded in 1948 and so have no claim to anything that is found


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## Phoenall (Jan 11, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Dear, dear.  A nutcase without a pot to pee in, and a dummy, tries to salvage his honor.











And you fail in every attempt, so go running of into the darkness only to return


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## Phoenall (Jan 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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 And the dead sea scrolls were found in Israel, so that is where they will be shown.


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## Phoenall (Jan 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > > Originally posted by *Montelatici*
> ...








 And yet another bare faced LIE


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## Phoenall (Jan 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
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 And not one item of Israeli heritage is amongst them, but plenty of arab muslims stolen artifacts are


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## rylah (Jan 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
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Eloy when we discussed the history, heritage and the texts of the scrolls,
You spared no words (slogans) talking about the 'brutal occupation'. And claimed to not have enough evidence of Arab Palestinians trying to destroy Jewish heritage.

However once You've seen a TOILET being made out of a gravestone in Jerusalem- by the Arab Palestinians....You seem to be so bored and short of words.

Makes one think...


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## Eloy (Jan 11, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Me being bored by the post showing the desecration of graves is the product of your mind. I gave no such indication by what I wrote.

I apologize to anyone reading this if I waste their time defending myself but I never wrote that I saw no evidence of Arab Palestinians (terminology I avoid) trying to destroy Jewish heritage. I would not take the hooliganism of some undisciplined Jordanian soldiers as a reflection of Palestinian government attempts to deny a connection between Semitic Jews and the Holy Land.

None of this should be about me but the distinction between right and wrong. it is right for the Palestinian authorities to guard historical artifacts uncovered in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. It is wrong for another country (in this case Israel) to pilfer such artifacts on the grounds that a Jewish state owns all artifacts produced by any Jews anywhere in the world. This is risible racial hubris.


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## rylah (Jan 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
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This IS INDEED "risible racial hubris", this I You trying to talk Your way around the long going crime of the Arab Palestinians to obliterate anything Jewish. In fact this is still going on today- the excavations and disposal of artifacts on the Temple Mount, a Hotel is still standing on a part of a graveyard of Olive Mount and Jews are still being spat at and cursed when visiting their holiest place.

Of course  "racial hubris" - this is what should be evident to You-
the hatred of the Jew is very real in the ME.

Let's se what's at stake here- the most ancient Jewish scrolls found on earth. And You advocate for it to be in the hands of the- "dirty joooish feet' PLO bunnies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No I'm not saying "everything a Jew wrote move to Israel", this is a ridiculous ad hominem.
I'm saying that here , in this case - the most ancient Hebrew Torah that were found in Judea....have more chance and relevance in the hands of Israeli Jews and Christians rather than people who build toilets, roadways and walls out of Christian and Jewish gravestones in Jerusalem.


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## montelatici (Jan 11, 2017)

Well yes, there is certainly hatred for the European colonizers, who happened to be followers of Judaism.  But in Algeria they had a hatred for the same Europeans who happened to be Christian.  Only because they had colonized and intended to  rule Algeria.


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## Shusha (Jan 11, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Well yes, there is certainly hatred for the European colonizers, who happened to be followers of Judaism.  But in Algeria they had a hatred for the same Europeans who happened to be Christian.  Only because they had colonized and intended to  rule Algeria.



Does this mean there is also certainly hatred for Arab invaders and colonizers, who happen to be followers of Islam?

I mean, if you are looking to justify hatred, it isn't especially difficult.  Why don't you instead, try to see the Jewish narrative of return to their ancient ancestral homeland.


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## montelatici (Jan 12, 2017)

The Arabians, who are Bedouins,  did not colonize, there were too few of them, they are a desert people after all, deserts do not host large populations.  They arrived leading armies mostly made up of converts they picked up along the way and ruled the native people, who eventually converted to Islam. In the case of places formerly under Roman rule, most of the Middle East and North Africa, the people seemed to prefer Arabian rule over Roman rule.  But that is conjecture on the part of certain historians.


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## montelatici (Jan 12, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Well yes, there is certainly hatred for the European colonizers, who happened to be followers of Judaism.  But in Algeria they had a hatred for the same Europeans who happened to be Christian.  Only because they had colonized and intended to  rule Algeria.
> ...



It is not the ancestral homeland of Europeans.  It is the ancestral homeland of the native people.  That they converted to Christianity when it became obligatory and then Islam when it became convenient doesn't change a people's homeland.  The Zionist were Europeans that practiced Judaism, that's it.


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## Phoenall (Jan 12, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...









So now you are saying Roman Catholic invaders and illegal immigrants are now indigenous. Or have you forgotten that the majority of Christians arrived after the fall of the Roman empire and were Romans


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## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Well, what You claim here is not in line with the pattern of behavior of minorities in the ME. Where such communities used to differentiate themselves from any new conquest by ritual, language and law, that later turned into ethnicities.

There's a reason why we still can see many ethnicities and tribes fighting for survival under Muslim rule, even the other Muslim minorities among them (Drize, Shia, Yazidi, Ismaelites). People don't just change their collective and personal identity.

Again trying to rewrite history just for the Jews doesn't hold water to in light of all evidence-THE SCROLLS BEING ONE.


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## Shusha (Jan 16, 2017)

I was watching one of Corey Gil-Shuster's videos yesterday and it occurred to me that one of the motivations for having possession of the Scrolls would be to destroy them because they prove, contrary to Islamic belief, that the Torah has been near perfectly preserved and has not changed at all in over 2000 years.


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## Phoenall (Jan 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> I was watching one of Corey Gil-Shuster's videos yesterday and it occurred to me that one of the motivations for having possession of the Scrolls would be to destroy them because they prove, contrary to Islamic belief, that the Torah has been near perfectly preserved and has not changed at all in over 2000 years.










 Or send them to gaza where they will be used as shields to stop the IDF from firing at hamas rocket launchers


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## Shusha (Jan 17, 2017)

Phoenall said:


> Or send them to gaza where they will be used as shields to stop the IDF from firing at hamas rocket launchers



Ha!  Don't give them any ideas!


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