# Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?



## frigidweirdo (Sep 6, 2016)

How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare

"The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)

"Jan received her second Verorab shot at a clinic in northern Thailand. The bill this time: A mere $18.50"

"Things changed dramatically once the Kerns returned to this country. For her third shot, Jan visited Torrance Memorial Medical Center. It was a Sunday, and she had to go to the emergency room, so that added considerably to her cost. The tab for a single injection: $5,254.85."


"“It’s obvious that our system is unlike any other health system,” said Uwe Reinhardt, a healthcare economist at Princeton University. “Other systems were set up to care for patients. Ours was set up by the providers — the hospitals and drug companies — for their own benefit.”"

Most countries in the world have healthcare to treat patients, the US has healthcare to make healthcare providers money.

So much money gets wasted in corruption, it's something like 3% of US GDP at the very least.


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## Lakhota (Sep 6, 2016)

> *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*



Cowardice, laziness, and lack of organization and willpower to fight the system.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 6, 2016)

Lakhota said:


> > *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*
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> Cowardice, laziness, and lack of organization and willpower to fight the system.



And a belief that everything on TV is correct. Being advertised to death. Drink Coke because it's good for you, and plastic McDonald's Hamburgers are the best.....


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2016)

The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.


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## Pilate (Sep 6, 2016)

If I recall correctly it has to do with insurance companies knowing that they can demand outrageous sums.


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## MisterBeale (Sep 6, 2016)

On top of all of this, I'm not sure I would trust the original source.


The LA times in notorious for having a political agenda associated with it's reporting.

Sure, it's not as bad as some outlets, but it is pretty bad.


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## PurpleOwl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.


Is there a single country that has done that? or is that just your theoretical fantasy, and in reality America is just the last country to develop a basic social program like public healthcare?


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 6, 2016)

Lakhota said:


> > *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*
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> Cowardice, laziness, and lack of organization and willpower to fight the system.



Or a lack of understanding....you being a prime example.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
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> > The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.
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We had no problems with our health care system until the government began interfering in it.  And if you think countries with government run health care don't have issues you have your head up your ass.  The NHS in Britain is horrible.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2016)

Pilate said:


> If I recall correctly it has to do with insurance companies knowing that they can demand outrageous sums.



There is no mechanism to keep costs down when your insurance is footing 80% of the bill and you only have a $20 copay.


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## PurpleOwl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


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thats ridiculous America has the worst healthcare system of the top 30 developed countries. When did the government begin "interfering" by your definition anyway?


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


> thats ridiculous America has the worst healthcare system of the top 30 developed countries.



That would be ridiculous were it true, but since it's not, we don't need to waste our time talking about hypotheticals.  



> When did the government begin "interfering" by your definition anyway?



Back in the 60s and it's been a slow melt down since.


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## PurpleOwl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


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the WHO places the USA 37th in the world, the UK is #18, and France is number one
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064#t=article
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf
World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems


> > When did the government begin "interfering" by your definition anyway?
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> Back in the 60s and it's been a slow melt down since.


Do you have a specific law in mind or just ya know sometime in da 60's is when you feel like it got bad?


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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I just knew you were going to pull that out of your ass.  You know always know you're dealing with an intellectual midget when they cite the 16 year old WHO report that has been debunked 50,000 over.  Baby, go back to your sandbox and play.

Oh, and by the way, that same report that says we're "37th" also ranked us number ONE in quality of care delivered.


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## PurpleOwl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


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So when did the government start interfering let me guess it was after the civil rights act? once we started letting black people have healthcare it became "government interference" right? things were fine before then huh?


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## Pilate (Sep 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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"Let me guess." Wow! Those gears sure are turning!


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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Dude, seriously, just stop.  You're embarrassing yourself.  Go join a conversation more suited to your level.  I think the Cartoon forum would entertain you.


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## Darkwind (Sep 6, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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That is a lie.  Learn the difference between insurance and healthcare.


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## PurpleOwl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


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so which country has the best healthcare system?  Im guessing its America right? do you atleast have an alex jones blog you can source?


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## Grandma (Sep 7, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> We had no problems with our health care system until the government began interfering in it.  And if you think countries with government run health care don't have issues you have your head up your ass.  The NHS in Britain is horrible.



Are you nuts?

People were dying or losing their homes because they couldn't afford healthcare.
I watched 3 people on my street die because they couldn't afford basic cancer treatment. One was a child.
Yes, government-run healthcare has its problems. But those problems aren't as bad as what we have here in the States. Plus, we can see where other countries went wrong and correct the problem.

We can't go back to letting people die because insurance is too expensive and to where insurance companies will drop you the minute you get sick.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 7, 2016)

Grandma said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
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> > We had no problems with our health care system until the government began interfering in it.  And if you think countries with government run health care don't have issues you have your head up your ass.  The NHS in Britain is horrible.
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Simply ignorant.

We spend 8500 per person per year.  You don't fix that, you don't fix healthcare.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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Doctors in this country have to comply with much more regulation and litigation than those in Thailand


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## TheGreatGatsby (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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What!?!?!?!?! Your god Obama didn't deliver for you? WTF!?!?!?!


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## Freewill (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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You need to ask Obama, he got healthcare passed and it could have pretty much said anything.  Only problem he needed the drug companies' support so if you remember he struck a deal behind closed doors.

Sad what Obama put on America.


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## MisterBeale (Sep 7, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


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Now I agree with that.  Nixon got the ball rolling with HMO's.


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## Anathema (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Most countries in the world have healthcare to treat patients, the US has healthcare to make healthcare providers money.
> 
> So much money gets wasted in corruption, it's something like 3% of US GDP at the very least.



The Government is not supposed to be in charge here.... the People are. Health care is NOT a Right, despite what others may suggest. If you don't like the system feel free not to use it and/or to go elsewhere for your care.


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## Votto (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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The same people who sold us Obamacare are now complaining about it?

Dolts


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## MarcATL (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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Have you seen "America: A Love Story?"

The answer is simple, unbridled greed aka it's capitalism run amock. 

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 7, 2016)

Freewill said:


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Obama had to work within the system. Had he been in another country it'd have been a lot easier. As it was he had opposition the whole way for the sake of opposition from people making a ton of money out of the system, and from those who seem to like to be over charged massively.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 7, 2016)

MarcATL said:


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Yes, I've noticed. And that's why someone like Trump can be so popular, he's tapped into that greed. He's claiming he'll share the greed around, but we all know what will happen, just like under the United States of Halliburton where the poor man lost his life or his legs and the rich man got richer.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 7, 2016)

Votto said:


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Obamacare is a step in the right direction, however it's far from good. I'm a supporter of a nationalized healthcare system, Obamacare independent of how it was a few years back sucks, but it sucked worse before in the US.


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## BluesLegend (Sep 7, 2016)

Hell in the USA millions of fat lard ass welfare moochers get free healthcare, it don't cost them $18. They walk right into an emergency room and demand it for free. Paid for by hard working Americans like myself. I should at least get a Christmas card from these sponges.


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## easyt65 (Sep 7, 2016)

'Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?'

It's Barry's Law of the Land.


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.



Government?
The USA has the highest healthcare cost per capita of all developed nations in the world.  All other developed nations (with the exception of Turkey), have healthcare systems run by their governments.  It's called socialized medicine.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.


Maybe you can list the countries in which there is high quality, free market medical care.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


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Agree but Obama should have smacked the rethugs down since he had a mandate at the beginning of his administration.


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## Weatherman2020 (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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Because they keep lawyers out of the system.
Try suing the Royal Angkor hospital.


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## Maryland Patriot (Sep 7, 2016)

all I know is that before the failed ACA my insurance was great, care was outstanding and I hand no problems.
 Now its a crap shoot when you need to get care.
 Was much better before, let the responsible people have the care they deserved while at the same time satisfying the beliefs of the atheists when it came to Darwins theory.


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## Redfish (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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because in spite of obozocare, its the best in the world.   the dems and libs are trying to bring it down to 3rd world status, and they may succeed.   But today it is the best in the world.

and BTW,  no one in the USA was denied medical care before obozocare.   NO ONE.   ACA was a fix for a problem that did not exist.


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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You have NO problem though in suing the doctor here in the USA and so you idiots don't seem to understand then why we see THIS from 90% of doctors surveyed!

*90% of physicians say they order duplicate tests,specialists referrals..at a cost of over $850 billion a year!*

http://www.jacksonhealthcare.com/media/8968/defensivemedicine_ebook_final.pdf
90% of physicians surveyed say they order $850 billion a year in wasted duplicate tests, referrals all out of FEAR of being SUED!
---  Emergency medicine, primary care, and OB/GYN physicians are most likely to practice defensive medicine.
---  79 to 83% of surgeons and OB/GYNs have been named in lawsuits.
"Physicians contracted by the federal government practice significantly less defensive medicine as they are protected against lawsuits by the  1946 Federal Tort Claims Act. "
--  BUT........Only 48% practice defensive medicine compared to 92% of non-government physicians.
Consider that fact that of the physicians interviewed,  52% DID NOT practice defensive medicine!
Who were the doctors that didn't practice "defensive medicine"?  
Doctors contracted by federal government!  
WHY did these doctors NOT practice "defensive medicine"???  1946 Federal Tort reform Act!
The insurance companies don't care to argue these claims. 
They pay the $850 billion.  Simply raising premiums.
So how come Obamacare taxed tanning salons 10% because tanning causes tanning, 
but they wouldn't tax lawyers'  $270 Billion income.
If educated physicians are telling you they fear lawsuits and order duplicate tests, etc. why wasn't there any effort to reduce the $850 billion spent in duplicate testing,etc. possible?
The reason though lawyers were protected though is almost half of Congress and of course Obama are lawyers!
A simple reduction of the $850 billion a year in defensive medicine claims would have reduced the Aetna's claims cost and again THEY don't care because they simply raise their premiums!
So when Aetna wants to get out of Obamacare it's because they can't make that evil profit...which many of you ignorant dummies hold against Aetna and any other for profit organization...but you are so dumb!
It is out of these profits "RESERVES" are created.  Without the "RESERVES" states' insurance regulators won't let insurance companies sell insurance.  If the Aetnas' don't make profits ...no reserves... no state allows them to sell!  It is that ...f....king SIMPLE  but you idiots that are against "PROFITS" listen!
That's the ONLY way insurance companies can stay in the health insurance business.
So have Civilian TORT reform.  Reduce the fear of Lawsuits!  This WILL LOWER THE $850 BILLION A YEAR OF WASTED DUPLICATE TESTS,ETC.!!!


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Pilate said:
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AGAIN you are right when the insurance companies just go ahead and pay bills like the below and simply increase the premiums...

*90% of physicians say they order duplicate tests,specialists referrals..at a cost of over $850 billion a year!*

http://www.jacksonhealthcare.com/media/8968/defensivemedicine_ebook_final.pdf
90% of physicians surveyed say they order $850 billion a year in wasted duplicate tests, referrals all out of FEAR of being SUED!
---  Emergency medicine, primary care, and OB/GYN physicians are most likely to practice defensive medicine.
---  79 to 83% of surgeons and OB/GYNs have been named in lawsuits.
"Physicians contracted by the federal government practice significantly less defensive medicine as they are protected against lawsuits by the  1946 Federal Tort Claims Act. "
--  BUT........Only 48% practice defensive medicine compared to 92% of non-government physicians.
Consider that fact that of the physicians interviewed,  52% DID NOT practice defensive medicine!
Who were the doctors that didn't practice "defensive medicine"?  
Doctors contracted by federal government!  
WHY did these doctors NOT practice "defensive medicine"???  1946 Federal Tort reform Act!
The insurance companies don't care to argue these claims. 
They pay the $850 billion.  Simply raising premiums.
So how come Obamacare taxed tanning salons 10% because tanning causes tanning, 
but they wouldn't tax lawyers'  $270 Billion income.
If educated physicians are telling you they fear lawsuits and order duplicate tests, etc. why wasn't there any effort to reduce the $850 billion spent in duplicate testing,etc. possible?
The reason though lawyers were protected though is almost half of Congress and of course Obama are lawyers!
A simple reduction of the $850 billion a year in defensive medicine claims would have reduced the Aetna's claims cost and again THEY don't care because they simply raise their premiums!
So when Aetna wants to get out of Obamacare it's because they can't make that evil profit...which many of you ignorant dummies hold against Aetna and any other for profit organization...but you are so dumb!
It is out of these profits "RESERVES" are created.  Without the "RESERVES" states' insurance regulators won't let insurance companies sell insurance.  If the Aetnas' don't make profits ...no reserves... no state allows them to sell!  It is that ...f....king SIMPLE  but you idiots that are against "PROFITS" listen!
That's the ONLY way insurance companies can stay in the health insurance business.
So have Civilian TORT reform.  Reduce the fear of Lawsuits!  This WILL LOWER THE $850 BILLION A YEAR OF WASTED DUPLICATE TESTS,ETC.!!!


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

Redfish said:


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Bullshit.  I had a pre-existing condition (misdiagnosed bulging disc) when I owned my own company and I wasn't even able to get insurance.  It wasn't just an opt-out on back related issues, it was any kind of coverage.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 7, 2016)

PurpleOwl said:


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  So tell me genius,why is it that people come from around the world to get treatment in the U.S.?


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 7, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


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EXACTLY.  Everybody wants to pay nothing, then complain when it costs an arm and a leg.  Somebody pays.. we have nothing invested in our own healthcare, we've outsourced it to insurance companies.


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## Redfish (Sep 7, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


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were you turned away from a hospital or ER?   Did any doctor refuse to treat you?

not being insured did not equal not being treated----------and you fricken well know it.


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## Redfish (Sep 7, 2016)

Soggy in NOLA said:


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its a game.   the hospital gives you a bill for $80K, the insurance company pays them $15K and everyone is happy.   then the hospital writes off $65K as uncollectable accounts.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

Redfish said:


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I was lucky enough not to have had any major issues when I was uninsured.  It would have bankrupted me if I had.  You're so full of shit it's coming out of your ears.


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 7, 2016)

What do you think would happen to the price of groceries if you placed an intermediary into the process?


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 7, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


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You missed the point.... you would have been treated.


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## Redfish (Sep 7, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


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more bullshit.  no one goes bankrupt SOLELY because of medical bills. 

so your earlier claim that americans were refused care before ACA is a lie.   thanks for admitting that.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

Soggy in NOLA said:


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Seriously?  That's your solution?  What if I'd have had cancer or needed a heart bypass?  They cover that in the ER?


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

Redfish said:


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It happens way too often jackass.  How far do you think your modest self worth would go toward massive medical bills?


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 7, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


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What is your point?


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 7, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


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Soooo... what happens when you can't pay for something?


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## g5000 (Sep 7, 2016)

If insurance was to blame, then we would have skyrocketing auto, life, and home insurance.

Since we don't have skyrocketing auto, life, and home insurance, then something else is causing skyrocketing HEALTH insurance.

The reason health insurance is skyrocketing is because we don't buy it the same way we buy auto, life, and home insurance.  We should be, if we want to get it under control.


We need to eliminate employer-sponsored health insurance (ESHI).  *ESHI drives up the cost of healthcare, and EVERYONE knows it. *So why does ObamaCare more deeply embed ESHI?

Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..."

The reason ESHI was more deeply embedded in Obamacare is because it is a labor union boondoggle.

We should be buying our health insurance the same way we buy our auto, life, and home insurance.  This provides us MAXIMUM leverage.

Instead, you are a total hostage to your employer's insurance.  It's a take-it-or-leave-it proposition where you have ZERO leverage.

In turn, your employer is hostage to the insurance company.  Small employers have almost no bargaining leverage at all with insurance companies, especially since the government limits the number of insurance companies your employer can buy from.

If you work at a small company, you are in a tiny risk pool.  If one employee in  your company suffers a catastrophic illness, everyone in the company suffers massive increases in premiums.  That's just plain insane and would not happen if you bought your health insurance the same way you buy your auto, life, and home insurance.

In turn, the insurance company is hostage to the medical care providers in your geographical area.


So how come you can buy your auto insurance from ANY auto insurance company in America, thereby providing you with maximum bargaining power, and yet you can't buy health insurance from any health insurance company in America?

Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm..."


Here's the difference: The US government is the biggest market player in the health insurance market.  You don't see that in the auto, life, or home insurance markets, now do you?

Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm..."

But wait.  It's even worse than that.  Not only is the US government the biggest player in the health insurance market, IT GETS TO WRITE THE RULES ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS HAVE TO PLAY BY!

What...the...FUCK?!?!?

How's that working out for you?

Imagine if you were a car maker, and you got to write the rules for your competitors.

Yeah. What would happen to the price and quality of cars?  After all, you could be as slapdash and sloppy as you like since you have your competitors hog-tied.


We need LESS government in the market, not more!  Jesus, every time the government gets more involved, things get worse.  But then the fucking retards think it is because we need MOAR government!

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 7, 2016)

All this shit started with the HMO's....


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

Soggy in NOLA said:


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In the case of medical coverage, either die or go bankrupt.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

g5000 said:


> If insurance was to blame, then we would have skyrocketing auto, life, and home insurance.
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> Since we don't have skyrocketing auto, life, and home insurance, then something else is causing skyrocketing HEALTH insurance.
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Employee covered health insurance has become something that keeps the slaves in their place.  Better not jump ship if there's no coverage where you're going.


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## g5000 (Sep 7, 2016)

Soggy in NOLA said:


> All this shit started with the HMO's....


I don't know about "started", but HMO's definitely accelerated the problem.


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## yiostheoy (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
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> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
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No choice.

The AMA has the USA by the balls.

It is more powerful than the NRA.


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## PredFan (Sep 7, 2016)

The US healthcare system is the best in the entire world. It is only government regulation that drives the prices up. For instance, the FDA increases the cost of drugs and research by a great deal. Foreign countries do not have to deal with that.


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

healthmyths said:


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$850 billion annually?  That quite a bit higher than the Journal of the American Medical Association study.
====================================================================================
"On Saturday, the _Los Angeles Times_ featured a column written by Michael Hiltzik entitled “New study shows that the savings from ‘tort reform’ are mythical,” in which he writes frivolous lawsuits are “a problem that exists mostly in the minds of conservatives and the medical establishment.”
To support his argument, Hiltzik cites a new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association examining the cost of defensive medicine.
Defensive medicine is a term referring to the practice of recommending extra tests or treatments not necessarily necessary for the patient to protect the physician against potential lawsuits.
The study found defensive medicine accounted for 2.9 percent of health care spending, or $78 billion of the estimated $2.7 trillion U.S. healthcare bill."
Study examining defensive medicine costs fuels med-mal cap debate
=====================================================================================
Maybe defensive medicine isn't only because of frivolous lawsuits.  Annually, 250,000-400,000 people die annually in the US because of medical errors.
Deaths by medical mistakes hit records
Are medical errors really the third most common cause of death in the U.S.? « Science-Based Medicine
Hospital Errors are the Third Leading Cause of Death in U.S., and New Hospital Safety Scores Show Improvements Are Too Slow
Now, I'm all against frivolous lawsuits.  Not only do they drive up costs (and not only in healthcare) but also slow down our legitimate court cases.
But I also believe in protection of the patient.  I have a friend who works for a malpractice insurance company and he has stated often, that there are many poor doctors out there, based on the lawsuits won by the patient.


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

PredFan said:


> The US healthcare system is the best in the entire world. It is only government regulation that drives the prices up. For instance, the FDA increases the cost of drugs and research by a great deal. Foreign countries do not have to deal with that.



Do you have anything to back your claim up that the US has the best healthcare in the world other than some talking point?
I have seen studies that don't back up your claim.
Forbes Welcome
These Are The 36 Countries That Have Better Healthcare Systems Than The US


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## Windship (Sep 7, 2016)

because of the skillful manipulation of facts and emotions. How else can you convince working people that unions are bad for them?


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 7, 2016)

Windship said:


> because of the skillful manipulation of facts and emotions. How else can you convince working people that unions are bad for them?



What?????


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## PredFan (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > The US healthcare system is the best in the entire world. It is only government regulation that drives the prices up. For instance, the FDA increases the cost of drugs and research by a great deal. Foreign countries do not have to deal with that.
> ...



Yeah, I have worked in medicine for 43 years. I have seen the rich from other countries come here for their care, I have seen ground breaking medical procedures and therapies developed here first, and that study you cited has been widely discredited.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 7, 2016)

PredFan said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...


US medical care:  Designed BY the rich FOR the rich.  All you poor, unfortunate middle class people just get to subsidize it.


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## TheGreatGatsby (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Yes, I've noticed. And that's why someone like Trump can be so popular, he's tapped into that greed. He's claiming he'll share the greed around, but we all know what will happen, just like under the United States of Halliburton where the poor man lost his life or his legs and the rich man got richer.



Yea, cos Hillary's gonna share "the greed" around


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...




In a subsequent analysis, PriceWaterhouse-Coopers used the 2 percent figure, then extrapolated from estimates of the practice of defensive medicine in a study of care for two cardiac conditions by Dan Kessler and Mark McClellan.7 On that basis, the firm reported that the cost of insurance and defensive medicine combined account for approximately 10 percent of total health care costs.
National Costs Of The Medical Liability System

 Total U.S. health care expenditures were estimated to be $3.24 trillion in 2015, and are projected to soar to $3.78 trillion in 2018. 

So 10% would be $378 billion.

Oliver’s team forwarded us a 2012 report that examined the economics of defensive medicine in Georgia. The report, by a German-based team of researchers done for Patients for Fair Compensation, looked at two studies on the economic impact of defensive medicine in this state. The annual figures ranged from $14 billion to $22 billion.
Estimates vary on cost of defensive medicine

Splitting the difference ($22 - 14 = 8 added to $14 = $18 billion or 
Using Georgia figure of $18 billion or $1,782 per Georgian times 318 million Americans equals $566 Billion.

Finally remember... The doctors in the Jackson Healthcare were ONLY describing what doctors thought THEY were doing in "defensive Medicine".
Doesn't take in to consideration what "hospitals" might be doing to protect themselves from lawsuits.

So using your figures and using the three different sources I've supplied let's be conservative and cut the figure from $850 billion to $500 billion!
Still a huge number paid out by insurance companies who simply increase premiums.
You ignored my observation that Federally contracted physicians were by 50% less inclined to do defensive medicine simply because of the 1946 Federal Tort Act.

So regardless  it is a huge cost that doing better management of the legal system would reduce the doctors proclivity to 2nd guess.
Is there any other AREA that has such a direct relationship as lawsuits to the $500 billion in wasted defensive medicine costs?


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > The US healthcare system is the best in the entire world. It is only government regulation that drives the prices up. For instance, the FDA increases the cost of drugs and research by a great deal. Foreign countries do not have to deal with that.
> ...


Well you seemed to ignore one of the issues PredFan pointed out..."FDA costs of drugs"...
What about this shows the US creates over twice as many drugs as the other 5 countries.

     1) Average cost to develop ONE DRUG (including failures!!!)  $2.6 BILLION!  Per drug... and takes 10 years!  
http://www.phrma.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2015_phrma_profile.pdf
     2) Which Countries Excel in Creating New Drugs? It’s Complicated | Xconomy


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

PredFan said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
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The wealthy travel to Europe and Asia for their care. They go to where they will get the best treatment for their specific health issue.  The US is tops for specific types of cancer, other countries lead the way in treatment for other issues.
I linked two studies, can you supply the link/links to the information discrediting one or both studies? Thank you.


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> kiwiman127 said:
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. 

And all these drugs are sold worldwide, yet in the US, we pay 2-5 times more. So we get raped and the rest of the world slides by with dramatic lower pricing.  How does that dictate our quality of healthcare?
What's your point?


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > The US healthcare system is the best in the entire world. It is only government regulation that drives the prices up. For instance, the FDA increases the cost of drugs and research by a great deal. Foreign countries do not have to deal with that.
> ...



That is a WHO ranking system that weighs access very heavily.

That study is worthless if you are talking about the technical capability of our health care system.


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## Freewill (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.
> ...



How does that ALONE cut costs?  The administrative part of healthcare in the US is about 5 percent.  Do you think that it would be cheaper if the government ran it?


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## Freewill (Sep 7, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Freewill said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
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the republicans couldn't have stopped him.  If they could have they would have.  But they couldn't and now you wish to blame them for the mess Obama created.  Takes a lot of gut defending the drug companies as the left wing likes to do.


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
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> > PredFan said:
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I listed two studies, not just one, but also Forbes.  How does The Commonwealth Fund for work for you?
*Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, 2014 Update: How the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally


 


 *
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, 2014 Update: How the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally

Regarding access, access isn't supposed to count?  We are the richest country on Earth and our citizens don't have the access the rest of the world has, who just happen not to have the wealth the US has.
Makes a lot of sense and particularly because we are a supposedly Christian country.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> PredFan said:
> 
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> > kiwiman127 said:
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Medical tourism is a great thing.  I know many people who have traveled to Malaysia for different treatments.

Why try to refute it when the market works ?


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

Freewill said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
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> > Dont Taz Me Bro said:
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Based on the world of facts, other countries have much less expensive healthcare than the US and they are all socialist.


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
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> > kiwiman127 said:
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Pretty simple!  We are PAYING for the development here in this country!  So you want more companies to go off shore keep bitching and calling these drug companies
the names you are and they will be gone! Case in point...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/d9b4fd34-ca3f-11e3-8a31-00144feabdc0.html#axzz4JcFHJAdy


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
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I think access is a big deal.  

But you lose credibility when you say we are about as good as Cuba.  Most people know better.

So possibly there should be multiple scales and rankings.  One overall ranking is bullcrap.

The commonwealth study does the same thing.

Additionally, the metrics need to be common which, as I understand it, they are not.

The ONE big metric that always jumps out at me is the 8,500 per person per year we spend.  That is simply stupid.


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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*Private Health Insurance*


*Many Irish citizens opt for private health insurance. It gives them more choice of where to have treatment, and more importantly, it bypasses sometimes-lengthy waiting lists.*

Individuals from outside the EU/EEA who are “normally resident” in Ireland should be able to purchase health insurance.

The cost of private health insurance is Ireland is a fraction of what it costs in other developed nations. 
Individuals can have cover from as little as €555 ($875.00 )per annum, irrespective of age, sex or “risk status”.
Health Care in Ireland - International Living Countries


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## Freewill (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> Freewill said:
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Which one are you flying to for open heart surgery because of their quality of care?


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> kiwiman127 said:
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You have to kidding? Right?
US citizens should be jumping in joy for getting raped by Big Pharma, while the rest of thew world pays pennies on the dollar of what Americans pay?
Or, the Big Fear   approach, Big Pharma will move offshore.  I wonder how many of 10's of millions would care if Big Pharma went offshore, if the exchange was the same price for drugs that the rest of the planet pays?


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
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YUP!  And you are comparing 


kiwiman127 said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
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Right and idiots like you can't seem to understand that the above countries combined HAVE 30 million fewer people then the USA!
Those 10 countries have 291.2 million vs USA 322 million!  Geez  and you expect we should have the same costs???
I love it when people like you take and don't look just a little deeper!


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 7, 2016)

“Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?”

Conservatives love the US healthcare system.

In fact, if the system could be made more inefficient, more wasteful, with fewer Americans having access to affordable healthcare, conservatives would love the US system even more.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 7, 2016)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> “Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?”
> 
> Conservatives love the US healthcare system.
> 
> In fact, if the system could be made more inefficient, more wasteful, with fewer Americans having access to affordable healthcare, conservatives would love the US system even more.





healthmyths said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
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> > Sun Devil 92 said:
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Many countries have that.  

And I often wonder if the so called "results" of these studies co-mingle the systems.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 7, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Freewill said:
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But then the US political system doesn't work like that. Change is hard.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 7, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> ...



Wow, insults.

Second you presume to know me.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 7, 2016)

Freewill said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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You're just playing the partisan game. You're making assumptions about what I said. I'm not going to bother defending myself against your pointless attacks.


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> kiwiman127 said:
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Ha!
The way business plays out is the bigger the purchasing power, the better the price.
I was a buyer for a chain of men's clothing stores.  The bigger we got the more purchasing power we had and the better prices we got from our vendors.
It's not rocket science, Einstein!
Go home, you're out of your league.


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
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> > kiwiman127 said:
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Hey I wouldn't criticize your extensive expertise on what the best price to get for a pair of socks.  That's your area.
Me... I'm an expert on health care finance to the point that over 7,000 times a day health care providers come to my business to see if they will
get paid on their claims.  So I know health care finance.
And since you are an expert in buying socks I won't demean your expertise.
For example I don't think you are aware of it but every state in the union REQUIRES a health insurance company to make a profit which is used to build reserves to pay future claims. If they can't build reserves they can't be registered.
That's one little reality I don't think you ever considered and the ramifications when then you consider the "medical liability ratio" which again not
being an expert as I am compared to your expertise in buying socks, I don't expect you to have any idea what that means!
Suffice to say if you don't have a 80% or better ratio you are in trouble with the government...thanks to Obamacare!


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > healthmyths said:
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I was never a buyer for socks.  I bought upscale men's casual wear.
After I got my MBA, I went to work for a healthcare software company and was the director for EDI (claims and remittances), our largest client was world famous clinic based in Ohio (because of confidentiality, I am not allowed to name that client, but I'm sure you know who I am referring to.)  And yes, they got the best price available due to their volume.   Like all our clients, their cost was based on volume.
I was also aware of laws requiring financial reserves for future claims.
After that I was hired by national healthcare provider, where I oversee strategic planning.  I am quite competent in healthcare finances.


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## healthmyths (Sep 7, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
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I don't have confidentiality with Cleveland clinic!
So being Director for EDI then you are very familiar with what  270/271s, 837/835s, 276/277CAs,997s,etc. are.
If then you are quite competent in health care finances then you are very aware the effort to create a single payer system in a country with 322 million diverse
ethnic, economically population is not achievable.  What you should be aware of is the affect of trying to centralize a payment system across 50 states, with 
different types of economic and lifestyles will not work.
Being conversant then with finances you of ALL people should be aware of several health care economic drivers...
1) EMTALA
2) Defensive Medicine--- over $500 billion a year in waste
3) The fallacy of "46 million uninsured Americans". Never were!
And if you want more details with LINKS regarding the above, I'm happy to oblige!

All of which has caused this mess we have now!
And with all that above knowledge you make for someone with your knowledge this statement:
"_Regarding access, access isn't supposed to count?  We are the richest country on Earth and our citizens don't have the access the rest of the world has, who just happen not to have the wealth the US has.  Makes a lot of sense and particularly because we are a supposedly Christian country."_
And then you insult me?  
With your knowledge you shouldn't really demean yourself with that type of statement KNOWING as you know that it is NOT true about access...again EMTALA???


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 7, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > healthmyths said:
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You are all over the place, stick to the topic.
Being as you have absolutely no problem with the cost of healthcare.
I just suggest you read this from the Rand Corporation and get a clue.
The bottom-line of this piece is that soaring healthcare costs is not only a threat to the typical American family, but also a threat to the US consumer driven economy. That's a fact Bucko.  You'd be hard pressed to find any economist who would disagree with these facts.
*How Does Growth in Health Care Costs Affect the American Family?*
How Does Growth in Health Care Costs Affect the American Family? | RAND


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## healthmyths (Sep 8, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
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All over the place?
1) You have no idea what EMTALA is do you?
2) You don't believe the experts who have from 3 different sources that I linked in previous posts cost over $500 billion in WASTED duplicate health services!
3) You believed Obama's crap about 46 million uninsured Americans didn't you?

As a result YOU are 180° off when you make the statement  about me "_Being as you have absolutely no problem with the cost of healthcare."_
As I expected you had NO idea what a 270 or 271 is, much less the 837/835, 276/277CA EDI transaction sets mean.
With both those observations I really dispute your "expertise" and if some idiot company hired you to "oversee strategic planning" CAQH should be 
part of your vocabulary.  Someone working with Cleveland Clinic, a $6.45 billion in revenues and 4.6% operating margin should know also that Cleveland
Clinic like the other 6,000+ hospitals absorb nearly $50 billion a year DUE primarily to EMTALA even though 16.4% of Cleveland Clinic's revenue come from Medicare!
Contrary to your erroneous assumption about being all over the place, these are specific issues that have directly contributed to the nearly 30% of wasteful healthcare expenses.


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## PredFan (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
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Garbage.


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## PredFan (Sep 8, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



You supplied nothing of the sort. I have personally seen and still see the wealthy from other countries come here, in the two hospitals that I work in, and have worked in for 34 years.

Their reasons, if we even ask anymore, are waiting lists and successful outcomes. The price is higher here but they are willing to pay it for the care they get.


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## PredFan (Sep 8, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



It doesn't dictate the quality of care, but that was what the OP and others have been trying to do. Many confuse the cost of insurance and drugs with the quality of care, and when I make the claim that we have the best in the world, they always bring up cost.


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## PredFan (Sep 8, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
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It has been debunked since it was published.


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## PredFan (Sep 8, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



You were the one asking how healthcare costs effect quality of care but you can't stop talking about costs.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
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Hospitals do not get judgements against people for unpaid bills, they write them off or they are paid by Medicaid or some charity.  

No one goes bankrupt just because of medical bills.   It just does not happen.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
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total bullshit,  no one in the USA was denied medical care before ACA.  NO ONE, not even those here illegally.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

g5000 said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> > All this shit started with the HMO's....
> ...




and government run single payer is one big HMO.   WTF is wrong with you, that you cannot see that?


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> 
> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
> 
> ...



Yeah, yeah, yeah. The sky is falling. I get it. Now maybe you should know that the patient pays only a small co-pay, if anything, and the insurer gets a deep discount ... perhaps as deep as 90% off. Pretty much nobody pays full price which may be why it is so outrageously high.

Why is it our whiny, sniveling, low-info, Chicken Little Loony Lefties either fail to tell the whole story or just don't know it?

Answer: Perhaps because they are whiny, sniveling, low-info, Chicken Little Loony Lefties.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> g5000 said:
> 
> 
> > If insurance was to blame, then we would have skyrocketing auto, life, and home insurance.
> ...




your employer is offering you a benefit in order to keep you working for him,  How awful!

liberal "logic"  is an oxymoron.


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Employee covered health insurance has become something that keeps the slaves in their place.  Better not jump ship if there's no coverage where you're going.



Ah yes ... we are all just slaves to the master class.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
> 
> > Employee covered health insurance has become something that keeps the slaves in their place.  Better not jump ship if there's no coverage where you're going.
> ...




good post, those same liberals are totally willing to become slaves to their masters in government.  

liberalism is a mental disease.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 8, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> ...



Oh, yeah, I know these discounts.

"Hey, I'll sell you this item that you can buy for 10 bucks for only 25,000 bucks."

"No thanks"

"Okay, HUGE discount of 90%, now it's only 10,000 bucks"

"But, 90% of 25,000 isn't 10,000"

"Okay then, 9,000, special price just for you"

"Deal".

Discounts and the drug is still $5,000 compared to like $20 elsewhere. Who needs discounts like that?


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

Windship said:


> because of the skillful manipulation of facts and emotions. How else can you convince working people that unions are bad for them?



I don't know (and neither do you) that anyone believes unions are bad for them but clearly many no longer believe unions are good for them (thus the exodus over the last 50 years).


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
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_If you want to go to Cambodia for medical treatment, go right ahead.  No one is stopping you._


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> Windship said:
> 
> 
> > because of the skillful manipulation of facts and emotions. How else can you convince working people that unions are bad for them?
> ...



in the 20s and 30s unions performed a needed function.   But lets not forget who created the 40 hour work week, weekends, 8 hour work days,   Does anyone know?



anyone






Henry Ford, not the UAW, Teamsters, or any other union.


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
> 
> > Employee covered health insurance has become something that keeps the slaves in their place.  Better not jump ship if there's no coverage where you're going.
> ...



I find social liberalism can and should be distinguished from the economic loony leftism exhibited by some here. 

Social liberalism is a matter of (sometimes misguided) conscience. Social Security, for instance (and for all its imperfections) is rooted in the correct belief that many Americans would save little or nothing for retirement and everyone who works - and many who never work - benefit from it.

Economic loony leftism ("but, it will work this time!") is just ... loony.

One can be both socially liberal and economically conservative.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 8, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
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> > Redfish said:
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You are a willfully ignorant fool.  Do you (did you) work in the health care industry or something?

Biggest Cause of Personal Bankruptcies? Medical Bills


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> SAYIT said:
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OK, your analogy sucks but I'll play anyway: Because the cost of making that drug $20 to the patient is massive gov't intervention that stifles R&D (why do you suppose so many drugs and cures are developed in the US?), drags the economy as taxes must be collected and filtered through gov't fingers, diminishes quality control and purity to cut costs, and creates long waits for patient services.

There's a good reason many foreigners come to the US - many from socialized med countries - for med care and training (and pay handsomely for it). Put on your thinking cap and try to figure why.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 8, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> Redfish said:
> 
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I'm sure that neither you nor Redfish have ever come up with an idea for a business (or had an independent thought for that matter) that became impractical because of a loss of health care benefits.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
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If you took the time to actually look at the data you posted you would see that the title is misleading. 

What is actually says is that most bankruptcies have some medical bills included.  What it also says is that the bulk of the debt is in credit card debt, car payments, mortgages, etc.

What it also does not say is that most medical debt is either written off or paid by Medicaid, medicare, or some charity.

NO one files bankruptcy solely due to medical bills.   Stop lying.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
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> > Redfish said:
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stop the bullshit, please.    not having insurance does not mean you don't get treatment, it never has.   The uninsured in the USA were, and are, paid for by the insured.  

ACA changed nothing, all it did was create a massive new govt agency that we also have to now pay for.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 8, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
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> > Redfish said:
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You simply do not want to see what a scam health care has become.  Answer the question: did you work in health care?


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
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> > Redfish said:
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that post verifies how little you actually know.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
> 
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No, did you?   and what does that have to do with the topic?  

I had top secret and SAP security clearances most of my career.   So I know that Hillary violated federal law regarding classified data.   I know the rules.   If I did what she did, I would be typing this in Leavenworth prison.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 8, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
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> > Redfish said:
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You must have me confused with someone else.  I'm no Hillary supporter.  And what does that have to do with healthcare anyway? 

The reason I want to know whether or not you worked in healthcare is because you carry so much water for them.  Maybe you've had government provided healthcare most of your career (and now medicare) and really have no idea how crappy the system has become.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
> 
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> > JoeNormal said:
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I never said that the healthcare industry is without problems, fraud, incompetence, and corruption.

My point is that anything run by the government will have more of those things than the same thing run by the free market.

Turning problems over to the government to "fix" always makes them worse.   Healthcare is the perfect example.

I brought up the classified data issue because you challenged my credibility.   Glad that you do not support the hildebeast.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 8, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
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> > Redfish said:
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You say this even though you apparently spent your career in a government job?  I realize the government isn't perfect either but without an entity whose function is to act as a mediator and limit the effects of corporate greed, that greed will cause unlimited damage.


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## Redfish (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
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I did not spend my career in a government job.  I worked in private industry and as an independent consultant.   I worked under government contracts some of the time, but never as a government employee.

once you use a term like "corporate greed" you discredit yourself as a competent person to discuss this, or any other, topic.  Corporations exist to make money for their shareholders,  greed will make that impossible and they will go out of business.  

I am sorry that you are a loser and consider yourself a victim of those who have been successful.  But I get it.


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## healthmyths (Sep 8, 2016)

PredFan said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > healthmyths said:
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Who are you addressing?


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > I find social liberalism can and should be distinguished from the economic loony leftism exhibited by some here. Social liberalism is a matter of (sometimes misguided) conscience. Social Security, for instance (and for all its imperfections) is rooted in the correct belief that many Americans would save little or nothing for retirement and everyone who works - and many who never work - benefit from it...
> ...



OK, so your response came nowhere near addressing my post but as with F-WEIRDO, I'll humor you:

In my working life I established, built, operated and sold a number of businesses, none of which ever "became impractical because of a loss of health care benefits." There were times - in my youth - that health insurance was impractical (building something takes personal sacrifice & effort and there are no guarantees of success... concepts loony lefties never seem to understand) but none of the businesses were made impractical.


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## Mike123 (Sep 8, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> 
> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
> 
> ...



I agree. It more on earning money and doing business. No healthcare.


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## PredFan (Sep 8, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> PredFan said:
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> > kiwiman127 said:
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Kiwiman asked in response to another poster, "what does cost have to do with quality of care".


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## JoeNormal (Sep 8, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
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> > Redfish said:
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I'm deeply entrenched in the corporate culture.  And I've seen the difference in the management styles of the founder of the company (who took it from small startup to international corporation) and the weasels who've taken over since he departed.  Corporations can become very successful without the mercenary levels of greed that you seem to think make them tick.  That leads me to believe that you are one of the weasels.  Enjoy your retirement.  I'm sure you've fostered high levels of hate directed against you.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 8, 2016)

kiwiman127 said:


> healthmyths said:
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That is correct.

But are you suggesting that you'll somehow have better buying power as things get bigger in healthcare.

Don't forget that your suppliers get bigger too.  And the day does come where they can run the show...especially if they manage to run off the competition.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 8, 2016)

SAYIT said:


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Do you know where the risky business of developing drugs takes place? It's not in the big pharma companies at all. It's from money given by the US govt in grants and the like. Once something has been shown to be successful the big Pharma companies pick it up and then work on it a little and then sell it for massive profits. 

These companies are making massive profits. So them selling drugs cheaper isn't stifling R&D as you said, it'd be stifling their profits. 

Pharmaceutical industry gets high on fat profits - BBC News







Yep, they have massive profit margins. Not putting it into R&D at all.

"With some drugs costing upwards of $100,000 for a full course, and with the cost of manufacturing just a tiny fraction of this, it's not hard to see why."

Johnson & Johnson made a profit of $13.8 BILLION in this particular year (probably 2013), a profit margin of 19%. It spend $17.2 BILLION on marketing, and $8.2 billion of R%D. Yeah, it spends DOUBLE on marketing than on R&D. It's R&D is less than its profits, R&D is only 1/9th of their total revenue. 

Pfizer, another US company, has profit margins of 43%. $6.6 billion on R&D and profits of $22 billion. Though they spend a higher percentage of their total revenue on R&D, it's still not that much.

"Until recently, paying bribes to doctors to prescribe their drugs was commonplace at big pharmas,"

"The rules on gifts, educational grants and sponsoring lectures, for example, are less clear cut, and these practices remain commonplace in the US."

"Indeed a recent study found that doctors in the US receiving payments from pharma companies were twice as likely to prescribe their drugs."

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/76xx/doc7615/10-02-drugr-d.pdf

"
The federal government spent more than $25 billion on health-related R&D in 2005. Only some of that spending is explicitly related to the development of new pharmaceuticals. However, much of it is devoted to basic research on the mechanisms of disease, which underpins the pharmaceutical industry’s search for new drugs."

So the US spends about the same amount as the top three Pharma companies in the world on R&D and doesn't make a profit from it. 

"federal grants help to train many of the researchers who are hired by drug companies."

"In general, the government tends to focus on basic research, whereas private firms focus much more on applied research and development"


So basically the Pharma companies are making it rich. Their profits are high, they could reduce drug prices, they could do a lot, but because of the nature of the US's for profit healthcare system they don't need to. A system which is not for profit would be far more beneficial as it would cost a lot less, and force the drug companies to not massively overcharge for drugs, as it can't do in other countries.


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > OK, your analogy sucks but I'll play anyway: Because the cost of making that drug $20 to the patient is massive gov't intervention that stifles R&D (why do you suppose so many drugs and cures are developed in the US?), drags the economy as taxes must be collected and filtered through gov't fingers, diminishes quality control and purity to cut costs, and creates long waits for patient services.
> ...



Really? Don't you feel at least a little bit silly posting on an adult subject? Big Pharma R&D costs are about equal to their profit margin. You need to quit your class war, workers-of-the-world-unite routine. It's old, tired, whiny and silly. In fact, if you spent half the time you spend whining about the misery that is your life on improving your life, you'd have nothing to whine about.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 8, 2016)

SAYIT said:


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If you're going to attack and insult, I'm not going to take part in a discussion with you.

I've already put two people on ignore in the last hour. If you want to be the next then carry on. But if you actually want debate, then debate like an adult.


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## healthmyths (Sep 8, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> SAYIT said:
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As it is with very uninformed people such as yourself YOU never looked at the components of Johnson & Johnson's Financials.
I did and surprise surprise.... You completely ignored the following from their 2013 Financial report!
NOTE: Consumer/Devices made up 60% of their revenue.... NOT pharmaceuticals AS YOU IMPLIED!
NOTE: R&D is most costly for the pharmaceutical component and as such cost 29.1% of the pharmaceutical revenues!
NOTE: YOU completely forget that little thing known as TAXES!  Which they paid $1.6 billion.
NOTE: YOU probably didn't go deep enough to find the reserves that have to be set aside for potential legal issues from their products!
NOTE: Their selling costs INCLUDED Consumer/Devices which you again seem unaware or just simple wanted to BIAS the material!
NOTE: you Also seem to forget  the approximately 128,000 employees for which Johnson & Johnson pays PAYROLL TAXES!
These payroll taxes at average salary of the minimum of $44,000 or nearly $430 million in Payroll taxes 
You didn't get into the weeds and find the FACTS and as people of your ilk are wont to do...jump to wrong conclusions!
Please try to be more informed and even more disciplined.


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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Thanks for your herculean effort. Our loony leftists are so embittered by their failure to convince Americans to hate capitalists and capitalism as they do that they are blinded by rage. Most are unaware (or just don't care) that they are cutting and pasting socialist, class war propaganda and truly believe the crap they are shoveling.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 8, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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They only paid 1.6 on 13 billion dollars ?  Seems a bit low to me.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 8, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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So you want to add new information to the topic, and you chose to do it as if everyone around you is stupid.

Are you joining in this debate, or just coming in to antagonize people?


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## Spare_change (Sep 8, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> 
> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
> 
> ...




Same ol' uneducated point of view built on anecdotal data misapplied ... or maybe it's just the same ol' lies.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> healthmyths said:
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So Johnson and Johnson didn't make $13.8 billion dollars profit then? 

So their profit margin wasn't 19% then? 

I spoke about profits. This is profits AFTER taxes, AFTER wages, after R&D, after everything. And yet you're agreeing with someone who's come on here claiming that I forgot all of this stuff. Forgot? I also forgot to put the NFL results in from 1952, does that make what I said wrong because I "forgot" to put in that information?

What your Hercules "missed out" is the 8.9% of tax that Johnson and Johnson paid in 2013, down from 18% the previous year. How a company that benefits enormously from the government spending on R&D for pharmaceuticals can be paying so little tax is beyond me. 

Also what your person failed to mention was that in the part they sourced, it gave a percentage of R&D compared to the Pharmaceutical revenue. What it doesn't say is that not all of the R&D is pharmaceutical, so that number of 29.1% is going to wrong anyway. 

So, while I presented my argument, you're backing someone up who is doing what they claimed I was doing, and claiming I was bad for doing it.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
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> > frigidweirdo said:
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Think about how much they benefit from the US govt's $24 billion on Science research. And think how they use the infrastructure of the country. How many of their workers are trained through US financial aid. How the stability of the country allows them to do this, and how the way the healthcare system is structured allows them to make massive fortunes, and they don't pay for this stuff.


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## healthmyths (Sep 9, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> healthmyths said:
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> > frigidweirdo said:
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YEA $1.6 billion seems low to someone who hates capitalism, America and oh yea maybe yourself?
Why yourself?  It is possible in several ways you are an indirect owner of J&J stock via the following entities which your 401K or IRA or pension plan at work
or mutual fund investment OWNS!!!
JNJ Major Holders | Insider Transactions | Johnson & Johnson Common Stock Stock - Yahoo Finance


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## healthmyths (Sep 9, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> healthmyths said:
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I abhor LAZY people evidently like you that have fallen for the old cliched idiotic and ignorant attacks on capitalism.
Especially when you might even be an indirect owner of the very company you are attacking!
Why don't you attack lawyers for causing over $500 billion a year in WASTEFUL health services?  Is it because you again are just plain ignorant about
"defensive medicine" that 90% of 138,686 physicians invited to participate in a survey said "they practice defensive medicine" at a cost of over $800 billion according to them!
But being the lazy uninformed person like you would not appreciate digging a little deeper to see why 3 distinct studies verify these above figures.
I also abhor idiots maybe like you that always believed Obama's GROSS exaggeration that there were 46 million uninsured Americans.  Again I can prove there
weren't with links to the census bureau among others that show he exaggerated by over 90% that figure!


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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Low to someone who hates capitalism? What does that mean? That capitalism means the richer you get the less you pay? Is that up to the point where you earn so much money the govt starts paying you? Or is that just farmers? 

Do rich pharma companies not have to pay for all they use? For all the R&D the US govt spends money on? For all the scientists that they use to make their pharmaceuticals they basically pay for a lot of their training, for the infrastructure and all of that? No, free, oh and then the company goes and makes massive profits.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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You call me lazy, yet you INSULT instead of debate. You call me ignorant, yet you insult instead of debate. 

Sorry, I don't stoop to the level you're going for, I put people like you on ignore. Bye.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 9, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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I do all the time.

Big Business = Government's Friend.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 9, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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What is the percentage ?

I don't hate capitalism.

I don't hate America.

I do hate the left wing.

I simply said, when looking at the numbers....that 1.6 billion out of 13 plus billion seems low.

I can't say that ?  Really ?

And not get a dick response like yours ?


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## healthmyths (Sep 9, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> healthmyths said:
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Sorry may have over reacted because simple math is hard for most people for the ilk that hate capitalism,America and can't seem to read and think logically.
So when you have a problem dividing 1.6B by 13B which equals 12% I jumped to the conclusion based on your response.
Sorry!


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 9, 2016)

healthmyths said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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And I thought was low given today's tax rates.

It was just a comment.

I don't claim to be in the know when it comes to corporate tax rates.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 9, 2016)

Lakhota said:


> > *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice, laziness, and lack of organization and willpower to fight the system.



Shut up.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 9, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> 
> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
> 
> ...



Any question like  this is legitimate.

As I have said for a long time.

Someone has to put together a grading system that we all agree on....maybe there are multiple systems.

When everyone agrees, then we can grade the systems and people might be able to join a conversation about improvement.

Is % of GDP legitimate ?  I think it should be part of the equation.

But that is the cost of the system.

If you have insurance (and it isn't some stupid ACA plan with outrageous deductibles), then you have access to the best technological care in the world.  

If you don't have access, you might as well live in the congo.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 9, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> SAYIT said:
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Yup, pharmaceutical companies are mainly massive marketing and sales forces.  They have legions of attractive women sent out to flirt with doctors in order to get their products into the market.


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## Redfish (Sep 9, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
> 
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you know nothing about me or my work history.  

for the record I always treated my employees with respect and honesty.

But you are correct, there are assholes in the corporate world just as there are assholes in every segment of human life.  

To make the stupid claim that assholes only exist in corporations is, well,   Stupid.

The other point that you seem oblivious to is that assholes do not last long in any environment.   They self destruct or are run out of business.

But continue the whine if it makes you feel better.


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## Redfish (Sep 9, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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very true.  big pharma is raping us.   Has obozo done anything about that?  has the hildebeast proposed doing anything about it?   of course not, they are financial slaves to big pharma.

Why do drug patents run for 12 years?    Why are they allowed to make a tiny change in the formula and get a new patent?  Why cant Canadian drugs be sold in the USA?

If you libs want to attack something, attack big pharma.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 9, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
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I don't think I claimed that assholes only exist in corporations.  Some of the most egregious ones I've known were small business owners who treat their employees like crap.

The reason that I generally target corporations these days is because it's what I know.  I've worked in three major corporations since becoming an engineer and I've seen the machinations at the top.  My first job as an engineer was in defense and I've never seen such a collection of douchebags in my life - and I've worked with honest-to-goodness Hollywood producers.  At least the producers were creative enough to somewhat deserve to be arrogant.  The other corps were somewhat less offensive but there's still that drive to move all of the profits to the players at the top and squeeze the guys in the trenches.  It's gotten to the point where I work now that I no longer make any effort to create anything patentable.


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## Redfish (Sep 9, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
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lets talk about distribution of profits to corporate employees and management.

In general management gets paid more because they are responsible for making decisions that cause the corporation to succeed or fail.   They have a fiduciary duty to the shareholders to earn dividends and raise the stock price.

due to Sarbanes Oxley,  directors also have a legal obligation to report truthfully or go to jail.

with responsibility comes reward.  

Want more money?   work hard and get into management.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 9, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
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I had a perfect opportunity to get into management about 5 years ago and the president of the company nixed it because he said I was too valuable in the role of development. Really motivational!  Since then, that president was forced out and a new crop of guys were brought in to 'save' us.  There were 4 main players and they're all gone now due to the catastrophic results they brought.  We've been nearly self managing since then and we're starting to recover but at this point, I'm not convinced upper management has the ability to do anything but damage.


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## Redfish (Sep 9, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
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some do, some don't,  might be time to look for a new company.   Sounds like yours has been managed poorly.

when the boss told you that you were too valuable where you were, you should have said, "then pay me what I am worth or I will take by skills elsewhere"/


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## JoeNormal (Sep 9, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
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I should have.  I've always had a problem with misplaced loyalty.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> ...



So you live in the richest country in the world and it's like you're in the 3rd world. Is that the govt looking out for its people? 

No, as we all know, the govt cares about the rich.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 10, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

But, the bottom line is that in our current system things like Single Payer won't work like people think they work in other countries (and while they may work to some degree...they are far from perfect).

If you want a true single payer system, you'll need to basically change the way our government works.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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I prefer a system where it's free at the point of delivery!


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 10, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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Yes...well, you know it isn't free overall.

But to your statement...when do you start pentitioning for a different government ?


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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Yes, I know it's not free overall. I do know it'd be cheaper by at least half what is paid in the US though. 

Well, I've been talking a lot about changing the way people vote in the US to change the way politics works.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 10, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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And I will be working in the other direction.

But I think we need a very good set of objectives with regards to healthcare.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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So you want healthcare that is overly expensive because you have to pay for profits for loads of different companies for no real reason other than you can? 

Seems a little strange. 3% of GDP goes on corruption within healthcare, and probably another 3% on profits for companies which leech off a system that doesn't even need to exist.

You simply don't need health insurance companies. The UK manages with only a few for private healthcare. Their profits are a drain on a system. If the US spent what it spends but was all government spending the right would be screaming, but as it's going into rich people's pockets, they're happy to pay. Seems crazy to me.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 11, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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It is crazy.

But you won't fix it by putting a single payer system in place.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 11, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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Depends what you mean by "fix it". You'd fix a lot of the corruption this way, you'd fix having unnecessary elements that cost a lot of money in the system.

Is The Profit Motive Ruining American Healthcare?

“The five largest health insurance companies – WellPoint, United Health, Aetna, Humana, and Cigna – … earned over $3.3 billion in profits [between April and June 2011].”

That's $13.2 billion a year. 

“Imagine confiscating all the profits of all the famously greedy health insurance companies.  That would pay for 4 days of healthcare for all Americans.  Now add in the profits of the 10 biggest ‘rapacious’ drug companies.  Another 13 days.”

So, you're looking at 4% of spending going to the profits of drug companies and insurance companies. 







3.75% of money goes to healthcare insurance costs in the first place. Totally unnecessary. 

"Total health care spending in the United States is expected to reach $4.8 trillion in 2021"

That'll be 0.17 tillion being spent on unncessary costs. 

Save this money, save money from prescription drugs which could save 5% or more at least, hospitals would be cheaper. 

The UK healthcare costs half what it costs in the US. Having very good system for 25% less would be amazing, and only achievable by getting rid of unnecessary costs.


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## emilynghiem (Sep 11, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> 
> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
> 
> ...



Dear frigidweirdo:
It's like asking why do we put up with the criminal justice system?
That rewards and pays for criminals, and punishes the lawabiding taxpayers who foot the bill.

1. it's because both sides OPPOSED to what's going on 
Don't AGREE what to change it to!

2. And guess what, the KEY to reforming and paying for sustainable health care
IS GOING TO INVOLVE reforming the prison and mental health system that is eating up state budgets and costing taxpayers out the kazoo.

Why pay 50K a year per person to keep them in prison, pay for their care, and leave them unable to work and fend for themselves?

Why can't 50K a year be invested in medical education and training/internships to CREATE more health care providers and jobs
to SERVE the public. And the work it takes to train and supervise the new providers in health care/social services
can be the basis of public health services to reach the broader populations. They just have to go to the school run clinics
in each district that is developed to meet the demands of the local population proportionately.


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## Arianrhod (Sep 11, 2016)

Lakhota said:


> > *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice, laziness, and lack of organization and willpower to fight the system.



I'd say it's more a question of "American exceptionalism," i.e., ignorance.  They think because it's the most expensive it's somehow superior to any other country's system.  And they  any attempt to tell them otherwise.  Q.v. some of the ignorami on this board.

A recent WaPost poll indicated that one-third of Americans didn't know what year 9/11 occurred.  Try teaching them anything other than how to recite the Sacred Second from memory.


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## Greenbeard (Sep 11, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > I prefer a system where it's free at the point of delivery!
> ...



So, deductibles then.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 11, 2016)

Greenbeard said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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> > frigidweirdo said:
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frigidweirdo said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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> > frigidweirdo said:
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Those companies will be in the middle of the "fix".

They'll fix it alright.


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## Luddly Neddite (Sep 11, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> > > *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*
> ...



Being rude is no help and Lakhota is correct.

We have friends in England, France and Belgium who all wonder why Americans are okay with paying extremely high taxes but get very little in return.


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## Luddly Neddite (Sep 11, 2016)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



It was HWBush and WBush who pushed us into this corner. And as we all know, WBush made no effort to even pretend to pay for his extravegant spending of the tax payer's money.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 11, 2016)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> > Lakhota said:
> ...



No, Lakhota is stupid.

As for the rest....they think we pay high taxes ????


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 11, 2016)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
> ...



Talk about a keen sense of the obvious.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 11, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> ...



So basically it doesn't work because of partisan politics.


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## SAYIT (Sep 11, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Sun Devil 92 said:
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Luddy Nutty's not the brightest bulb on the tree either.


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## Redfish (Sep 12, 2016)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
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when Bush left office the national debt was around 10T.  the result of 43 presidents and over 200 years.   after almost 8 years of Obama its 19T.  now tell me again which president spent extravagantly.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 12, 2016)

The question was:

Why do we put up with this healthcare system ?

I think it is a good question.

What's bad with it....what's good with it.


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## JoeNormal (Sep 14, 2016)

Redfish said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...


Which president crashed the US economy making it necessary to spend Trillions on assistance programs?


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 14, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



Clearly Obama, because he has superpowers that he was able to do things before he was even president. He has mind control powers and made Bush invade Iraq, trash the economy, mess up everything else.....


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## Redfish (Sep 14, 2016)

JoeNormal said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
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Clinton, Bush, and Obama.    they are all to blame for the economic mess


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## The Great Goose (Sep 16, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> 
> "The first shot at Royal Angkor International Hospital cost $125." (Cambodia)
> 
> ...


Brainwashing.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 16, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > How a bite from a stray dog shows the sick state of U.S. healthcare
> ...



Care to make an actual point?


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## The Great Goose (Sep 16, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
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Your country has been in the grip of mass propaganda for a century. 

Perhaps you'd like to play with this ball.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 16, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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> 
> > The Great Goose said:
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My country? What's my country?


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## The Great Goose (Sep 16, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


America


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 16, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Goose said:
> ...



Have I ever told you which country I'm from?


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## The Great Goose (Sep 16, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Yes.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 17, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Goose said:
> ...



Where? 

Just to point out, I've never told ANYONE on this forum where I'm from. People don't know if I'm male or female, they don't know how old I am, where I live, where I'm from etc.


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## The Great Goose (Sep 17, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


You are male, in your 60s and you live in Phoenix Arizona.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 17, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Goose said:
> ...



And how did you make that up? 

Seems to be the usual fare on a site like this, everyone decides they know better than the truth.


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## TheGreatGatsby (Sep 17, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



60s in PHX AZ; doing some posting to make a few bucks, eh?


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## The Great Goose (Sep 17, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


So how did I do?


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## The Great Goose (Sep 17, 2016)

TheGreatGatsby said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Goose said:
> ...


I don't understand.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 17, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Goose said:
> ...



Not good. Maybe next time just stick to what you know.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 17, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



I think the point this person who I have on ignore is trying to make is that Chinese Whispers is a great game and they'll believe it all if they want to.


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## The Great Goose (Sep 17, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > TheGreatGatsby said:
> ...


Well the world has a right to know.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 17, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Goose said:
> ...



No they don't.


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## TheGreatGatsby (Sep 17, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



A lot of these posters get paid to help create a perception that there's a balance of "left/right" or otherwise people who support all the foolish bs.


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## The Great Goose (Sep 17, 2016)

TheGreatGatsby said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > TheGreatGatsby said:
> ...


I believe it. I've seen too many strange things.


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## The Great Goose (Sep 17, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> The Great Goose said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Then why did you bring it up?


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## TheGreatGatsby (Sep 17, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Goose said:
> ...



Go to Youtube, and you'll see 143 thumbs-up for the "conservative" "top opinion." You'll see a 3 thumbs up for a "liberal" "top opinion" (YT won't let people thumb down despite the button there). On Yahoo and other sites, it is similar discrepancies.


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## Interpol (Sep 19, 2016)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.



That is incorrect. The opposite is actually the truth. The federal government is responsible for controlling healthcare costs for seniors, veterans, and children, in particular. One of the main reasons why seniors were lifted out of poverty 50 years ago was because of Medicare. 

It is the profit-motive of private industry that continues to drive up healthcare costs. We've all witnessed the recent stories like the outrageous increases in the Epipen costs due to simple greed. In countries with single-payer, the people through their representatives have enough control to make sure stuff like that doesn't happen. Single-payer countries also do a much better job of controlling prescription drug prices, which is why over 11 million Americans get their pills from Canada and the UK. 

The government can control costs. If the government doesn't, you get private industry pimps who squeeze everybody for their own profit motive.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Sep 20, 2016)

Interpol said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > The federal government is responsible for the massive rise in health care costs.  If you want to fix the system then you need you kick the government out, not give them more seats at the table.
> ...



So what is the reason for the high costs...where does the money go.

JoeB131 (the B is for Bitter) begudges physicians their "high salaries" which are not high at all.

What do you think it is ?


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## Conservative65 (Oct 5, 2016)

Lakhota said:


> > *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice, laziness, and lack of organization and willpower to fight the system.



I "put up with it" because it works for ME.  Why should I support changing and the potential that it will cost ME more?


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## Sun Devil 92 (Oct 14, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> > > *Why do people put up with the US healthcare system?*
> ...



It should work for everyone, but not in the sense of single-payer.

We all don't want the same things.

At the same time, we are terrible consumers of health care.


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