# Texans can now openly carry guns in public without a permit or training...CNN: "Police say the new law makes it harder to do their jobs"



## basquebromance (Sep 2, 2021)

And they talk about Florida LOL









						Texans can now openly carry guns in public without a permit or training. Police say the new law makes it harder to do their jobs
					

A new pro-gun law in Texas that went into effect Wednesday allows most Texans who legally own a firearm to carry it openly in public without obtaining a permit or training, a measure that experts say will make it more challenging for law enforcement to protect the public from gun violence.




					edition.cnn.com


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## rightwinger (Sep 2, 2021)

By all means…

Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns


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## pknopp (Sep 2, 2021)

One's rights are not dependent on how they affect a police officer doing their job. They just are our rights.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 2, 2021)

This will turn out like all the other cries about guns.
They'll be blood running through the streets OMG,OMG,OMG!!!!!!!!!
And nothing happened unless you count the lower crime rates.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 2, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> Let untrained and *uncleared *morons run around with guns.


What do you mean by "uncleared"?    ...


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## miketx (Sep 2, 2021)

I live in Texas and have not seen one thing different. I asked a cop if they would do anything differently now and he said no because they just assume everyone is armed anyway.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 2, 2021)

It is a shame that Texas turned pro-death on this issue.

RIP 33,000 Americans who die by guns each year.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 2, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> It is a shame that Texas turned pro-death on this issue.
> 
> RIP 33,000 Americans who die by guns each year.



   Ya cant count the ones who commit suicide.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 2, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Ya cant count the ones who commit suicide.


Their suicide was largely *enabled* by guns.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 2, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Their suicide was largely *enabled* by guns.



    I can give them the address of some really high parking garages they can use.
 Or they can park in their garage with the engine running.
      Japan has the highest suicide numbers and yet they have strict gun control.
 You cant include suicide....


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 2, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Japan has the highest suicide numbers and yet they have strict gun control.


Sadly they do not view Suicide as a sin.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 2, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Sadly they do not view Suicide as a sin.



  What does that have to do with suicide numbers?


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> It is a shame that Texas turned pro-death on this issue.


Texas has always been pro death.
Indeed - most people are.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Their suicide was largely *enabled* by guns.


^^^
This is a lie.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> This will turn out like all the other cries about guns.
> They'll be blood running through the streets OMG,OMG,OMG!!!!!!!!!
> And nothing happened unless you count the lower crime rates.


Ohio has -always- had open carry.
<  looks around >
No blood.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 3, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Texas has always been pro death.
> Indeed - most people are.


They are also *death penalty* capital.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> They are also *death penalty* capital.



   We're # one,We're # one!!!!!!


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Sep 3, 2021)

miketx said:


> I live in Texas and have not seen one thing different. I asked a cop if they would do anything differently now and he said no because they just assume everyone is armed anyway.


EXACTLY!

What cops did CNN talk to?  Certainly none from Texas.

This is par for the course at CNN, though, so there it is.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Sadly they do not view Suicide as a sin.


We don't view guns as the cause of suicide.  I know it's hard to see the distinction, but please try.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> RIP 33,000 Americans who die by guns each year.


Yeah.  RIP....

 

(phony motherfucker)


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> They are also *death penalty* capital.


Fabulous, isn't it?


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> RIP 33,000 Americans who die by guns each year.


The vast majority of these people chose to die.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 3, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> The vast majority of these people chose to die.


That is a sin as bad as murder.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> That is a sin as bad as murder.


Irrelevant to the fact these people chose to die.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> That is a sin as bad as murder.



 Bad for who?
Personally I'd rather you off yourself and leave me the fuck alone.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics....So you're telling me you'd rather have me off you than have me off myself?
  Okely Dokely....


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> 
> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns


The government should provide training at no cost.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 3, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Relative Ethics....So you're telling me you'd rather have me off you than have me off myself?
> Okely Dokely....


*NO! NO!*

But a suicide perpetrator/victim has less chance to repent then a murderer.

During decades in SuperMax, a murderer will feel great regret for his sin.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 3, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Irrelevant to the fact these people chose to die.


Society *MUST* help people with *Mental Disability* who choose suicide.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Society *MUST* help people with *Mental Disability* who choose suicide.


Irrelevant to the fact these people chose to die.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 3, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Irrelevant to the fact these people chose to die.


Their *Mental Disorder *chose for them.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Their *Mental Disorder *chose for them.


They chose.  Just them.  No one else.
They chose to die.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 3, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> They chose.  Just them.  No one else.
> They chose to die.


Society has a *DUTY* to help people in desperate situations.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Society has a *DUTY* to help people in desperate situations.



  If someone really wants to kill themselves there isnt anything anyone can do to stop them.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Society has a *DUTY* to help people in desperate situations.


Irrelevant to the fact these people chose to die.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 3, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Society *MUST* help people with *Mental Disability* who choose suicide.


Banning guns isn't going to stop people from commiting suicide.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 3, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Banning guns isn't going to stop people from commiting suicide.


Suicide is his excuse for his desire to ban guns.
Best he can do.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 3, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Suicide is his excuse for his desire to ban guns.
> Best he can do.


Right!  But they can't explain why gun ownership in Japan is almost non-existent, but the suicide rate is 4x that of the U.S.


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## whitehall (Sep 3, 2021)

CNN says it makes it harder for Police to do their job but you can bet your ass(ets) that hypocrite CNN people are well protected by armed security. Open carry actually it makes it easier for Police to do their job. Not many felons prey on armed citizens and kids grow up in Texas knowing how to use a firearm. How easy is it for Chicago police when nobody can get a permit to own or carry a firearm and about 50 people get shot every weekend?


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## Stann (Sep 3, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> And they talk about Florida LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No permit and no training required; they're relying on the intelligence of the gun owner. That's a recipe for disaster.


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## Stann (Sep 3, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Right!  But they can't explain why gun ownership in Japan is almost non-existent, but the suicide rate is 4x that of the U.S.


Suicide in Japan is related to failure of the individual to serve the greater good of society. Society is more important than the individual in their culture. Plus they don't have the Judeo-Christian moral code against suicide. Suicide can be viewed as honorable move.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 3, 2021)

Stann said:


> Suicide in Japan is related to failure of the individual to serve the greater good of society. Society is more important than the individual in their culture. Plus they don't have the Judeo-Christian moral code against suicide. Suicide can be viewed as honorable move.


And the lack of private gun ownership doesn't change anything.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 3, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> Texans can now openly carry guns in public without a permit or training


Pandering to the BBQ gun crowd.

Concealed carry is far superior and preferable to open carry.

And the ‘training’ that was required was a joke.

Last, requiring a license to carry a concealed firearm is likewise ‘Constitutional carry’ – in no manner in violation of the Second Amendment.


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## Stann (Sep 3, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> And the lack of private gun ownership doesn't change anything.


Correct !


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> Suicide in Japan is related to failure of the individual to serve the greater good of society. Society is more important than the individual in their culture. Plus they don't have the Judeo-Christian moral code against suicide. Suicide can be viewed as honorable move.


I looked up more details, Seppuku is the name given to honorable death by suicide. The most popular method is hanging second is jumping from a high place. Guns are irrelevant to the issue.


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## fncceo (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns



Say that to my face, Sonny.


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## fncceo (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> Society is more important than the individual in their culture.



If you're a bee or an ant, maybe ...


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## fncceo (Sep 4, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Concealed carry is far superior and preferable to open carry.



I respectfully disagree...


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## justinacolmena (Sep 4, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> CNN: "Police say the new law makes it harder to do their jobs"​


So you're saying they're working cops on the beat, clocking in day, swing, and graveyard shifts at the police station, paying their dues to the local police union and the fraternal order of police, and they have jobs to do?

Dr. Martin Luther was a monk in the Catholic Church who performed such mighty works of Reformation, rescued the nuns from the convent, and eventually married one of them.

And yet he explained that man is not saved by vain works of the law, but by grace through faith alone.

No matter how many hours those cops put in, no matter how much the police station locker room stinks of sweat, they cannot save us by their earthly labors.

All their labor is in vain when they have forsaken the laws they were hired to uphold and enforced the lawlessness of mob rule, gun control, and rampant drug dealing and prostitution instead.


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## Captain Caveman (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> It is a shame that Texas turned pro-death on this issue.
> 
> RIP 33,000 Americans who die by guns each year.


More die by abortion, so if it's about saving lives.......


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> *NO! NO!*
> 
> But a suicide perpetrator/victim has less chance to repent then a murderer.
> 
> During decades in SuperMax, a murderer will feel great regret for his sin.



As you have been shown over and over, Japan has strict gun control, only criminals and their cops have guns and they have a higher suicide rate than we do.  Whether they view suicide as a sin or not has nothing to do with it…..they jump in front of trains which is just as deadly as guns.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

whitehall said:


> CNN says it makes it harder for Police to do their job but you can bet your ass(ets) that hypocrite CNN people are well protected by armed security. Open carry actually it makes it easier for Police to do their job. Not many felons prey on armed citizens and kids grow up in Texas knowing how to use a firearm. How easy is it for Chicago police when nobody can get a permit to own or carry a firearm and about 50 people get shot every weekend?



Surveys of the police show they actually support people being able to carry guns.  It is only the politically appointed police chiefs in democrat party cities who oppose it


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> No permit and no training required; they're relying on the intelligence of the gun owner. That's a recipe for disaster.



Except for, you know, actual experience.  We went from about 2 million people able to carry guns in public in the 1990s to now over 19.4 million today and the gun murder rate went down 49% the gun crime rate went down 75% and accidental gun deaths didn’t go up……….

So actual, real world experience on gun carrying by normal people doesnt support what you feel about this topic.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> Suicide in Japan is related to failure of the individual to serve the greater good of society. Society is more important than the individual in their culture. Plus they don't have the Judeo-Christian moral code against suicide. Suicide can be viewed as honorable move.



And?   That is completely irrelevant to guns and suicide.   It doesn’t matter why the Japanese commit suicide, their lack of guns doesn’t stop them from actually doing it which is his argument.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Pandering to the BBQ gun crowd.
> 
> Concealed carry is far superior and preferable to open carry.
> 
> ...



and you are wrong……..at a minimum, any fee mandated on the exercise of a Right is, in fact, Unconstitutional……see Murdoch v Pennsylvania……..and since a license will have a fee attached to it, and is a prior restraint on a Right, it is, in fact, unconstutional.


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## justinacolmena (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> As you have been shown over and over, Japan has strict gun control, only criminals and their cops have guns and they have a higher suicide rate than we do.  Whether they view suicide as a sin or not has nothing to do with it…..they jump in front of trains which is just as deadly as guns.


I don't think suicide is mental illness either.

People owe money in a back alley in the wrong part of town, and there are fates worse than a quick death.

Flash back to the United States in October 1929. Wealthy men who had invested in stocks on margin suddenly found themselves deep in debt to Al Capone and jumped to their deaths out of tall buildings rather than face the debt collectors and extortioners of the day.


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

fncceo said:


> Say that to my face, Sonny.
> 
> View attachment 534811


That's not to get personal. In general, statistically 31% of a high school diploma or less, 34% have some college, and a whole lot of unknowns out there. So in general, the intelligence level is lower in gun owners that in the general population.


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> And?   That is completely irrelevant to guns and suicide.   It doesn’t matter why the Japanese commit suicide, their lack of guns doesn’t stop them from actually doing it which is his argument.


They prefer hanging, or jumping off of high precipices. Guns are messy, the Japanese country be neat.


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> They prefer hanging, or jumping off of high precipices. Guns are messy, the Japanese country be neat.


The Japanese tend to be neat.


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## fncceo (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> Guns are messy



I've regularly attend suicide scenes ... hanging, jumpers (trains and buildings), and shooters ... they are ALL messy.


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## fncceo (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> Seppuku is the name given to honorable death by suicide



The last person to commit ritual disemblowing suicide in Japan was the author and would-be revolutionary Yukio Mishima in 1970.  While his books are popular abroad, he is widely reviled in Japan due to the circumstances of his death.


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## fncceo (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> That's not to get personal. In general, statistically 31% of a high school diploma or less, 34% have some college, and a whole lot of unknowns out there. So in general, the intelligence level is lower in gun owners that in the general population.



And 73.65% of all statistics are pulled out of someone's rectum.

There is no spot on the background check form for level of education.


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## rightwinger (Sep 4, 2021)

Carrying a gun in public is easy. All you need to know is how to pull a trigger. Any gangster thug knows how to do that.

But learning things like when not to shoot, conflict de-escalation, gun safety…..

Texans don’t need that


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> 
> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns



Let undocumented unvaccinated morons into the USA


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## miketx (Sep 4, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> We don't view guns as the cause of suicide.  I know it's hard to see the distinction, but please try.


You're wrong! Last night I caught a gun stealing my car!


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## justinacolmena (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> They prefer hanging, or jumping off of high precipices. Guns are messy, the Japanese country be neat.


What about the punishments worse than death meted out by the Japanese royals?


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> That's not to get personal. In general, statistically 31% of a high school diploma or less, 34% have some college, and a whole lot of unknowns out there. So in general, the intelligence level is lower in gun owners that in the general population.




The intelligence of your post is lower than that of the average biden voter.....


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## Who_Me? (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> 
> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns


That pretty much describes anyone that feels the need to carry a gun.


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## rightwinger (Sep 4, 2021)

Who_Me? said:


> That pretty much describes anyone that feels the need to carry a gun.


Most gun owners I have encountered are responsible and understand the proper use
However, there are those that look at it as an extension of their manhood and a means to project power.

Allowing anyone to run around with a gun strapped to their side without training is not responsible


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## Crepitus (Sep 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Ya cant count the ones who commit suicide.


False.  You certainly can.


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## Who_Me? (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Most gun owners I have encountered are responsible and understand the proper use
> However, there are those that look at it as an extension of their manhood and a means to project power.
> 
> Allowing anyone to run around with a gun strapped to their side without training is not responsible


Most of the gun owners I know are paranoid, conspiracy believing, individuals that believe that the gun makes them somehow feel important.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Who_Me? said:


> Most of the gun owners I know are paranoid, conspiracy believing, individuals that believe that the gun makes them somehow feel important.




Wow....you have a very low class of associates.......over 19.4 million Americans can now carry their guns legally in public for self defense...and over the last 27 years gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%......

What you feel about guns is not the reality of guns and gun owners.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> False.  You certainly can.



Bullshit.
If they didnt have a gun they'd find another way to kill themselves.


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## Who_Me? (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Wow....you have a very low class of associates.......over 19.4 million Americans can now carry their guns legally in public for self defense...and over the last 27 years gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%......
> 
> What you feel about guns is not the reality of guns and gun owners.


Only the gun owners that I know are the "low class of associates" which probably taints my view.  I will keep searching for gun owners with character.  

Oh and the gun crime stats that you tout do not apply here in the Chicago area.  There are too many bad guys with guns.


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

fncceo said:


> I've regularly attend suicide scenes ... hanging, jumpers (trains and buildings), and shooters ... they are ALL messy.


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## Crepitus (Sep 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Bullshit.
> If they didnt have a gun they'd find another way to kill themselves.


Maybe, maybe not.  Guns are the ultimate in instant gratification for murde and suicide.  Other ways are harder, slower, and just generally less "user friendly".


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

fncceo said:


> I've regularly attend suicide scenes ... hanging, jumpers (trains and buildings), and shooters ... they are ALL messy.


My whole life I've only known one person who committed suicide, he was the maintenance man in the building that I still work at. He injured himself, was unable to manage the pain successfully so he took his life. I don't understand why he didn't seek more help.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  Guns are the ultimate in instant gratification for murde and suicide.  Other ways are harder, slower, and just generally less "user friendly".



   Id say jumping off a ten story building would be instantaneous.


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

Who_Me? said:


> Most of the gun owners I know are paranoid, conspiracy believing, individuals that believe that the gun makes them somehow feel important.


AND SAFE.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Who_Me? said:


> Only the gun owners that I know are the "low class of associates" which probably taints my view.  I will keep searching for gun owners with character.
> 
> Oh and the gun crime stats that you tout do not apply here in the Chicago area.  There are too many bad guys with guns.




Yes....the bad guys with guns are criminals who break the law.....normal gun owners do not break the law.


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## justoffal (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> 
> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns


They already do every time they step into a vehicle and start it up.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  Guns are the ultimate in instant gratification for murde and suicide.  Other ways are harder, slower, and just generally less "user friendly".




And guns are more user friendly for victims of violent criminals...guns make it far easier for a woman to fight off a violent, aggressive male attacker.......dittos senior citizens, and any other victim facing a violent criminal.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  Guns are the ultimate in instant gratification for murde and suicide.  Other ways are harder, slower, and just generally less "user friendly".




Jumping in front of a bullet train is just as fast and even more user friendly.


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## Crepitus (Sep 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Id say jumping off a ten story building would be instantaneous.


Nope, you Would have several seconds to regret it on the way down.


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## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> Nope, you Would have several seconds to regret it on the way down.




As the saying goes, it isn't the fall that kills you....


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## OKTexas (Sep 4, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> And they talk about Florida LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow, more commie propaganda. Nothing has materialized in other constitutional carry States that even resembles the anti-gun bullshit. Also it's a LIE that TX repealed the permit altogether, in fact permit holders can carry is places others can't. So just shove your lies.

.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Right!  But they can't explain why gun ownership in Japan is almost non-existent, but the suicide rate is 4x that of the U.S.


Of course they can't - there's no rational explanation.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Last, requiring a license to carry a concealed firearm is likewise ‘Constitutional carry’ – in no manner in violation of the Second Amendment.


Just like the new abortion law in TX.


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## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Yes....the bad guys with guns are criminals who break the law.....normal gun owners do not break the law.


how come when they're interviewing these  neighbors of the mass murderers they say they were perfectly normal people and never expected this of them. We are all only human, every one of us capable of going over the edge. That's why no one should have access to weapons capable of killing many in just minutes. At least it would limit the amount of carnage by guns.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 4, 2021)

Who_Me? said:


> Most of the gun owners I know are paranoid, conspiracy believing, individuals that believe that the gun makes them somehow feel important.



  I dont believe you know any gun owners.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> Nope, you Would have several seconds to regret it on the way down.



    But the deed is done and there's no going back.
All it takes is one step.


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## fncceo (Sep 4, 2021)

Who_Me? said:


> I will keep searching for gun owners with character.


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## Crepitus (Sep 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> But the deed is done and there's no going back.
> All it takes is one step.


Gotta find a ten story building, get roof access, walk to the edge, look at the drop, and finally step off.

Vs get the gun outta the drawer and pull the trigger in a fit of depression.  Guns are the easiest way to commit suicide or murder or even both at once.


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## Crepitus (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> As the saying goes, it isn't the fall that kills you....


Can't argue with that.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> Gotta find a ten story building, get roof access, walk to the edge, look at the drop, and finally step off.
> 
> Vs get the gun outta the drawer and pull the trigger in a fit of depression.  Guns are the easiest way to commit suicide or murder or even both at once.



  Or simply rent a hotel room with a balcony.
It's not like your gonna care about money anymore.
   Hell,I have plenty of guns and they wouldnt be my choice if I wanted to off myself.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> how come when they're interviewing these  neighbors of the mass murderers they say they were perfectly normal people and never expected this of them. We are all only human, every one of us capable of going over the edge. That's why no one should have access to weapons capable of killing many in just minutes.


Free, sane societies do not take away the rights of the people because the people _might _do something illegal.


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## miketx (Sep 4, 2021)

I say we ban leftists and queers. Crime solved.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> More die by abortion, so if it's about saving lives.......


I oppose abortion.
I oppose enabling suicide by guns.
I support Welfare System.

I am *consistent*.


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## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Right!  But they can't explain why gun ownership in Japan is almost non-existent, but the suicide rate is 4x that of the U.S.


Japan has a rate of 12.2
US has a rate of 14.5









						List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

Texas: where gun owners have more rights than pregnant women.  Figures.


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## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Crepitus said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  Guns are the ultimate in instant gratification for murde and suicide.  Other ways are harder, slower, and just generally less "user friendly".


Thank you!

Sadly, people who are somewhat Christian are eager to *place a stumbling block before the blind*.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> and you are wrong……..at a minimum, any fee mandated on the exercise of a Right is, in fact, Unconstitutional……see Murdoch v Pennsylvania……..and since a license will have a fee attached to it, and is a prior restraint on a Right, it is, in fact, unconstutional.


Wrong.

_Murdock v. Pennsylvania_ concerned the First Amendment Free Exercise Clause, not the Second Amendment.

And the Supreme Court has never ruled on the constitutionality of licenses, permits, and fees.









						Sorry, Mandatory Gun Registration Is Constitutional
					

Second Amendment Advocates Don't Like It, But It May Be Permissible; A Lawsuit Against Washington, D.C. Could Decide The Question




					www.cbsnews.com
				




Requiring a license to carry a concealed firearm is perfectly Constitutional, in no manner violating the Second Amendment.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Texas: where gun owners have more rights than pregnant women.  Figures.


Sadly both Progressive Liberals and Conservatives are somewhat pro-death.

Conservatives support deaths of mentally disabled people who kill themselves.

Progressive Liberals support deaths of unborn children.


----------



## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Free, sane societies do not take away the rights of the people because the people _might _do something illegal.


----------



## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

It's not a question of it might happen it is happening over and over and over again this our nation is insane if it doesn't recognize this and deal with the crisis.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Japan has a rate of 12.2
> US has a rate of 14.5
> 
> 
> ...


False.
1999-2019, US:
5.8/100k average per year.


			https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D76;jsessionid=99DBB7B6BC1CE86FD4BB2D11BD72
		


2011-2020, Japan
18.9/100k average per year   (3.43x higher than the US)








						Japan: suicide rate 2020 | Statista
					

Japan's suicide rate surged to 16.7 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants in 2020, but peaked in 2009 with almost 26 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants.




					www.statista.com
				




US data:





Japan data:


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> False.
> 1999-2019, US:
> 5.8/100k average per year.
> 
> ...


Your cdc link does not work.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> It's not a question of it might happen it is happening over and over and over again....


423,000,000 guns in the US
~10,500 gun-related murders per year.
99.9975% of the guns in the US are not involved in a murder each year
For every gun involved in a murder, 40,285 are not.
With this in mind, please demonstrate the necessity for getting rid of all the guns in the US.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Your cdc link does not work.


Try here.   




__





						Underlying Cause of Death, 1999-2020 Request
					






					wonder.cdc.gov
				



Use this filter:


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> False.
> 1999-2019, US:
> 5.8/100k average per year.
> 
> ...


Agree, suicide rate in Japan does seem higher…





__





						Suicide Rate by Country 2022
					





					worldpopulationreview.com
				




But that is no excuse not to do what we can lower suicide rates here.


----------



## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> 423,000,000 guns in the US
> ~10,500 gun-related murders per year.
> 99.9975% of the guns in the US are not involved in a murder each year
> For every gun involved in a murder, 40,285 are not.
> With this in mind, please demonstrate the necessity for getting rid of all the guns in the US.


I didn't say all guns, people have the right to your hunt, I said all guns that can kill people many people in just minutes. those guns are only used to kill people that you don't mow down a herd of animals when you go hunting or kill the whole flock of birds when when you go bird hunting. The only purpose of those weapons is to kill lots of people. Anyone who wants to own a gun like that is sick.


----------



## Stann (Sep 4, 2021)

Free societies do lots of things to protect people from themselves. Seat belts when driving that's mandatory, helmets when riding a motorcycle not only great common Sense mandatory in most States and Commonwealth's.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Japan has a rate of 12.2
> US has a rate of 14.5
> 
> 
> ...


I stand corrected on the rates, but my point still stands concerning suicides and gun ownership.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> I stand corrected on the rates, but my point still stands concerning suicides and gun ownership.


Well don’t stand corrected….I might be wrong too, there is contradictory info


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Texas: where gun owners have more rights than pregnant women.  Figures.


Well, the Constitution gives us the right to own and carry guns.  It doesn't say that about abortion.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> 
> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns


BWahahah...you need to get a history book....how the west was tamed  was by ARMED citizens who shot the bad guys not like now when the cops arrest bad guys, they get accused of racism or being meanies to the poor wittle criminals who din't du nuffins.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Well, the Constitution gives us the right to own and carry guns.  It doesn't say that about abortion.


I would disagree on that.


----------



## progressive hunter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I would disagree on that.


got anything to back up that opinion??


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Japan has a rate of 12.2
> US has a rate of 14.5
> 
> 
> ...



Dipshit, that was one year, 2019……the only year…..joe131 tried to use that lie too


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> False.
> 1999-2019, US:
> 5.8/100k average per year.
> 
> ...




Yeah....he learned that lie from Joe131.....the only year they had a higher rate was 2019......the rest of the time they out do us in suicide.........I wish these assholes wouldn't lie so much...but that is all they have...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Wrong.
> 
> _Murdock v. Pennsylvania_ concerned the First Amendment Free Exercise Clause, not the Second Amendment.
> 
> ...




Dipshit......Murdock states this...you asshole...

They don't say....this only applies to First Amendment protections...you dope...

*4. A State may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution. P. 319 U. S. 113.*









						Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 (1943)
					

Murdock v. Pennsylvania: It is unconstitutional for a state to tax people selling religious merchandise.




					supreme.justia.com


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> how come when they're interviewing these  neighbors of the mass murderers they say they were perfectly normal people and never expected this of them. We are all only human, every one of us capable of going over the edge. That's why no one should have access to weapons capable of killing many in just minutes. At least it would limit the amount of carnage by guns.




Another anti-gun moron........what is it with you people.....you just want to be helpless victims......


----------



## Who_Me? (Sep 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> I dont believe you know any gun owners.


Oh I do.   Related to a couple in fact.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Agree, suicide rate in Japan does seem higher…
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It doesn't "seem," higher, it has always been higher except for one year, 2019.........the Japanese commit suicide at higher rates than we do...as do these European countries...

And yet Scotland has a higher suicide rate than the U.S......Japan, where only criminals and cops have guns, has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Sweden has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Denmark has a higher suicide rate than the u.S.....



France

Germany,

Hungary

Iceland

New Zealand

Poland

Norway

Japan

South Korea



https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html



Scotland..



15.7 suicides per 100,000

In 2019?

16.7 suicides per 100,000.

And in the U.S.?

13.93 per 100,000



Suicide facts and figures



Changes in Suicide Rates — United States, ...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> I didn't say all guns, people have the right to your hunt, I said all guns that can kill people many people in just minutes. those guns are only used to kill people that you don't mow down a herd of animals when you go hunting or kill the whole flock of birds when when you go bird hunting. The only purpose of those weapons is to kill lots of people. Anyone who wants to own a gun like that is sick.




You mean shotguns?  or handguns?

You idiot...

At the range of every other mass public shooting a rifle has no advantage over pistols or shotguns.......



again.....at the range of a mass public shooting the AR-15 is no better than a pump action shotgun....as are 2 handguns......you idiot...



Boulder....used an AR-15 with magazines that held more than 10 bullets..  10 killed.....



Virginia Tech...2 pistols, one with 10 round magazine..... 32 killed.



Do you see that the AR-15 killed fewer people than the 2 pistols?



Boulder...10 killed with an AR-15 rifle and regular magazines ( holding more than 10 bullets)



Luby's Cafe..... 2 pistols....24 killed.



Do you see that the 2 pistols killed more than the AR-15?



Do you know what the difference was between these attacks?



The cops immediately responded and shot at the attacker in boulder, causing him to stop shooting unarmed victims, and then he shot himself....



Virginia Tech and Luby's Cafe, the police didn't get there, and at Luby's Cafe, the one woman who could have shot and killed the attacker had to leave her gun in her car because of stupid gun free zone laws....



Boulder AR-15 with magazines that hold more than 10 bullets...you know, regular magazines..... 10 killed...



Kerch, Russia, Polytechnic school shooting.... 5 shot, pump action shotgun...which means it had 5 shells which is 5 less than 10........20 killed 70 wounded.



Do you see that the AR-15 killed fewer people than the 5 shot, pump action shotgun?



The difference?   The Russian police station was 100 yards away from the school...and it still took them 10 minutes to get to the school...and he managed to kill 20 people with a 5 shot, pump action shotgun....10 more than the Boulder shooter with a rifle and a regular sized magazine...





So again.......in a mass public shooting the number of bullets in the gun magazine doesn't mean anything......the gun doesn't make the difference....



What makes the difference?



1) if the target is a gun free zone, more people get killed.



2)  if someone starts shooting at the attacker, they commit suicide, or surrender, or runaway....



That is what you don't understand and don't care to understand since you simply have a mental issue when it comes to the AR-15 rifle.

That rifle had no special advantage in a mass public shooting.



We have 20 million AR-15 rifles in private hands in the U.S....



They were used for mass public shootings 4 times in 2019  killing a grand total of



41



Deer kill 200 people a year.



Ladders kill 300 people a year.



Lawn mowers kill between 90-100 people a year...



20 million, and growing, AR-15 rifles in private hands....they were used 4 times in mass public shootings...



Killed in each shooting?



7

9

22

3



US mass shootings, 1982–2021: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation



Compared to...



Luby's cafe....2 pistols.... 24 killed



Virginia Tech...2 pistols....32 killed



Virginia Beach shooting....15 killed, 2 hand guns





Fort Hood shooting....13 killed....2 hand guns...



Kerch, Russia...20 killed, 70 wounded.... 5 shot, pump action shotgun



Navy Yard shooting....12 killed, pump action shotgun



You really don't know what you are talking about.......


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Agree, suicide rate in Japan does seem higher…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good luck stopping people who want to die from killing themselves.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> I didn't say all guns...


You said:
"That's why no one should have access to weapons capable of killing many in just minutes."      
Every mass shooting ever committed in the US -- except one -- could have been equally perpetrated with a pump-action shotgun - or a revolver.
Thus, you want to ban all guns.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> Free societies do lots of things to protect people from themselves.


Fact remains:
Free, sane societies do not take away the rights of the people because the people _might _do something illegal.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> As the saying goes, it isn't the fall that kills you....


So far OK.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> I didn't say all guns, people have the right to your hunt, I said all guns that can kill people many people in just minutes. those guns are only used to kill people that you don't mow down a herd of animals when you go hunting or kill the whole flock of birds when when you go bird hunting. The only purpose of those weapons is to kill lots of people. Anyone who wants to own a gun like that is sick.


That’s any gun other than a single shot black powder muzzle loader like a Kentucky Long Rifle, or a Brown Bess musket.  Even then you can kill four or more people with one gun In a minute if you are moderately skilled in loading.  I’ve never hunted birds, from what I understand, hunters fire multiple shots as quickly as possible when a flock is flushed.  In skeet competitions, as many as four clay pigeons can be engaged at once.  So you are either ignorant, or willfully lying.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Yeah....he learned that lie from Joe131.....the only year they had a higher rate was 2019......the rest of the time they out do us in suicide.........I wish these assholes wouldn't lie so much...but that is all they have...


In other words, dipshit, it was the last statistical year before Covid effected things...don't suppose that occurred to you.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> In other words, dipshit, it was the last statistical year before Covid effected things...don't suppose that occurred to you.




It did occur to me, you shithead, which is why I looked up all the other fucking years......and found that yes, Japan has a higher suicide rate for every other year, you dumb shit.....you and joe thought you could pull a fast one by using one year as your "truth," when it is just another lie...you idiot.









						SUICIDE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY
					

Interactive Charts and Maps that Rank Suicide as a Cause of Death for every country in the World.




					www.worldlifeexpectancy.com


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> It did occur to me, you shithead, which is why I looked up all the other fucking years......and found that yes, Japan has a higher suicide rate for every other year, you dumb shit.....you and joe thought you could pull a fast one by using one year as your "truth," when it is just another lie...you idiot.


cool...now go back to your 2A echochamber moron, since you can't possibly concrie of using very moderate gun control measures to lower suicide rates here.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> cool...now go back to your 2A echochamber moron, since you can't possibly concrie of using very moderate gun control measures to lower suicide rates here.




Moron.....guns do not cause suicide.....all those other countries I posted about have higher suicide rates than we do, and more gun control than we do, you dumb ass....

You hate guns and gun owners, so that fucking blinds you to actual crime and suicide solutions....you idiot.

Scotland has a higher suicide rate than the U.S......Japan, where only criminals and cops have guns, has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Sweden has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Denmark has a higher suicide rate than the u.S.....



France

Germany,

Hungary

Iceland

New Zealand

Poland

Norway

Japan

South Korea



https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html



Scotland..



15.7 suicides per 100,000

In 2019?

16.7 suicides per 100,000.

And in the U.S.?

13.93 per 100,000



Suicide facts and figures



Changes in Suicide Rates — United States, ...


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron.....guns do not cause suicide.....all those other countries I posted about have higher suicide rates than we do, and more gun control than we do, you dumb ass....
> 
> You hate guns and gun owners, so that fucking blinds you to actual crime and suicide solutions....you idiot.


I don't hate guns and I'm a gun owner.  I just hate psychopathic gun nuts like you who oppose any restrictions whatsoever, no matter what.  It's people like you, the useful idiots, who  mass shooters depend on for their hobby.


----------



## progressive hunter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I don't hate guns and I'm a gun owner.  I just hate psychopathic gun nuts like you who oppose any restrictions whatsoever, no matter what.  It's people like you, the useful idiots, who  mass shooters depend on for their hobby.


so you go to my feed and troll my comments,,,

youre such a fucking idiot,,,


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> The government should provide training at no cost.


Are you a liberal, expecting government to diaper your bottom?


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> so you go to my feed and troll my comments,,,
> 
> youre such a fucking idiot,,,


If you can't take it, don't dish it out, troll.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I don't hate guns and I'm a gun owner.  I just hate psychopathic gun nuts like you who oppose any restrictions whatsoever, no matter what. * It's people like you, the useful idiots, who  mass shooters depend on for their hobby.*


I'm sorry, but you created that relationship in your feeble, liberal mind!


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I don't hate guns and I'm a gun owner.  I just hate psychopathic gun nuts like you who oppose any restrictions whatsoever, no matter what.  It's people like you, the useful idiots, who  mass shooters depend on for their hobby.




Shithead....I don't oppose restrictions....I believe keeping guns from violent felons and the dangerously mentally ill....you own guns, you just don't want other people to own guns, you moron.

Americans own 600 million guns, and over 19.4 million legally carry their legal guns out in public for self defense.....

.......total number of people who engaged in mass public shootings in 2019....

12, out of over 330 million people in the United States.


Total number of people killed in those 12 mass public shootings?

73.

Compared to?

Deer kill 200 people a year.

Bathtubs kill 350 people a year.

Ladders kill 200 people a year.

Lawn mowers kill between 90-100 people a year.

In Japan, bathtubs actually kill between 14,000 and 19,000 people a year.

 gun grabbers push mass public shootings for one particular reason......

Almost 99.99% of gun murder is not mass public shootings......they are criminals shooting other criminals in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities.....

Of the 10,258 gun murders 70-80% of the gun murder victims are actual criminals....they are not normal Americans going about their normal lives.

That leaves about 2,051 actual innocent (?) people as victims of gun murder...but of those, the vast majority are the friends, family and associates of criminals..or people who attend block parties or birthday parties where criminals show up and get shot at by other criminals........

sooooooooo.....

Most Americans are not criminals.

If you are not a criminal.

If you are not a family member of a criminal.

If you are not an associate of a criminal.

If you don't live in the tiny, democrat party controlled areas of cities where criminals control the streets.

If you don't attend block parties and birthday parties where criminals show up.........

If you are none of the above, the odds of you getting shot by a criminal are almost zero.....

And Americans know this both instinctively and statistically....so they do not actual fear getting shot and killed by criminals....

However.....when a mass public shooting happens, where an individual with a gun enters a public space and shoots random strangers......that may effect normal Americans..........this is not true....but that is the one type of gun murder that most Americans fear...since it is random and effects normal places where people go...

Again......330,000,000 million people in the U.S......

12 people out of those 330,000,000 engaged in mass public shootings in 2019.......killing a total of 73 people.....

The rarest of rare events.............

So anti-gun extremists push  mass public shootings because they are covered 24/7 by the democrat party press while the black on black gun murder that is the majority of shootings in our country go uncovered because they occur in democrat party controlled cities.....


----------



## progressive hunter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> If you can't take it, don't dish it out, troll.


I'm not going through your feed and trolling you


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> I'm not going through your feed and trolling you


The evidence does not support that.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> cool...now go back to your 2A echochamber moron, since you can't possibly concrie of using very moderate gun control measures to lower suicide rates here.


If people have a right to privacy that allows them to abort fetus’, don’t they have a right to privacy that allows them to commit suicide?  I’m not in favor of suicide because it’s often a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  But in my opinion, everyone has the right to end their own life in their own time in their own way.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> And they talk about Florida LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Police don't say that........police chiefs appointed by democrat party gun grabbing governors say that...actual police?

More than 91 percent of respondents support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or not been deemed psychologically/medically incapable.
A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent).
Police Gun Control Survey: Are legally-armed citizens the best solution to gun violence?
=======

https://crimeresearch.org/2018/05/n...ncealed-handgun-reciprocity-and-other-issues/


National Association of Chiefs of Police Annual Surveys on Concealed Handgun Reciprocity and other issues - Crime Prevention Research Center

Concealed carry reciprocity: Support

29th annual Survey..... 88.62%
28th.............................86.4%
27th.............................63.3%

Can armed citizens help lower violent crime activity: Support

29th......75.77%
28th......76%
27th.......76.4%


----------



## KissMy (Sep 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> This will turn out like all the other cries about guns.
> They'll be blood running through the streets OMG,OMG,OMG!!!!!!!!!
> And nothing happened unless you count the lower crime rates.


Crime went up in St Louis, MO when the same was done here.


----------



## progressive hunter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> The evidence does not support that.


face it skank,, your just mad you keep looking like a fucking idiot,,


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> *llowing anyone to run around with a gun strapped to their side without training is not responsible*



Can you operate the mouse on a PC?

The concept is the same with guns.  Point and click!


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

KissMy said:


> Crime went up in St Louis when the same was done here.



Nope...that is wrong....

Democrats in charge since 1949

Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia

Soros-Funded St. Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner Refuses to Charge Killer of 7-Year-Old Child Despite Suspect's Confession

Last week a suspect was arrested in the fatal shooting of 7-year-old Xavier Usanga in north St. Louis last Monday evening.

According to KSDK Usanga was shot and killed while playing outside of his Hyde Park home Monday, according to St. Louis Metro Police Cheif John Hayden. An 18-year-old man standing nearby was injured in the backyard of the Usangas’ home, in the 3500 block of North 14th Street, just after 5 p.m. Monday evening.

*The suspect confessed to the shooting that killed 7-year-old Usanga.*


But when they brought this confession and evidence to the St. Louis City’s circuit attorney’s office Kim Gardner threw it out.

*Gardner said based on current evidence she was not able to determine who was responsible for the child’s death.*

Again… The suspect confessed to the crime but that was not enough for this radical lunatic in the Circuit Attorney’s Office.

Democrats in charge since 1949

Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia


Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why

Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.

At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.

-----------

*Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
----
*When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.

In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*

Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?

But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.

On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Stann said:


> how come when they're interviewing these  neighbors of the mass murderers they say they were perfectly normal people and never expected this of them. We are all only human, every one of us capable of going over the edge. *That's why no one should have access to weapons capable of killing many in just minutes. At least it would limit the amount of carnage by guns.*


What weapons would you outlaw?  It seems to me you would advocate single-shot weapons that hardly even exist anymore except for kids!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> I oppose abortion.
> I oppose enabling suicide by guns.
> I support Welfare System.
> 
> I am *consistent*.


You are a consistent moron?


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> You are a consistent moron?


I consistently value *human life and human rights*.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> What weapons would you outlaw?


Any weapon enabling suicide or murder.

Guns
Opium
Fentanyl


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

All people's life is valuable.

Canada and West Europe give even *lifers* humane conditions.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Agree, suicide rate in Japan does seem higher…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Suicide is a mental health issue, not gun control!


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Suicide is a mental health issue, not gun control!


Most attempts without guns fail.

People in Japan do not understand the consequences of suicide.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Any weapon enabling suicide or murder.
> 
> Guns
> Opium
> Fentanyl



Opium is not a common drug.  That just proves your ignorance.  The _opium_ poppy is the key source for many narcotics, including morphine, codeine, and heroin.

If you cannot support the 2nd Amendment, please take the closest exit to Canada.  Their military to about 100% plan to emigrate to the US as soon as their service ends, primarily due to gun control.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Any weapon enabling suicide or murder.
> 
> Guns
> Opium
> Fentanyl


Knives, razor blades, axes, swords, cars, trucks, propane tanks, gasoline cans, how many more do you want me to list.  Almost anything can be used as a murder or suicide weapon.  In the sixties, Buddhist monks used gasoline to commit suicide in Vietnam to protest The Catholic president Diem’s actions.  Do you want to ban gasoline as well?


----------



## Colin norris (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> 
> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns


Huh.   It happens all over America. Its not new.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> Knives, razor blades, axes, swords, cars, trucks, propane tanks, gasoline cans, how many more do you want me to list.


These items are necessary and not as destructive as guns.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Most attempts without guns fail.
> 
> People in Japan do not understand the consequences of suicide.


They do?  So all of the people I know who committed suicide by drugs were the exception?

The only thing relative about you is the the fact that you are relatively stupid.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> All people's life is valuable.
> 
> Canada and West Europe give even *lifers* humane conditions.


Lifers??????  WTF does that mean in that context?


----------



## AZrailwhale (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Most attempts without guns fail.
> 
> People in Japan do not understand the consequences of suicide.


They fully understand the consequences.  Often in their society the consequences of NOT committing suicide are worse.  On the other hand if you are talking about the Christian belief that suicide condemns you to an eternity in hell, Christianity is the only religion that I am aware of that has that belief.  Don’t inflict your religion on others.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> They fully understand the consequences.  Often in their society the consequences of NOT committing suicide are worse.  On the other hand if you are talking about the Christian belief that suicide condemns you to an eternity in hell, Christianity is the only religion that I am aware of that has that belief.  Don’t inflict your religion on others.


As a Jew I believe they will not suffer more then a few millennia.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

KissMy said:


> Crime went up in St Louis, MO when the same was done here.





Relative Ethics said:


> Any weapon enabling suicide or murder.
> 
> Guns
> Opium
> Fentanyl




Trains
Tall buildings
Rope
Cleaning products
Prescription and over the counter medicine


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> face it skank,, your just mad you keep looking like a fucking idiot,,


If you troll people don't whine when they turn around and give it back. Put on your big boy pants and suck it up.





Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Suicide is a mental health issue, not gun control!


Mental health issues don't don't exist in a vacuum.  Men in this country are more likely to use a gun for suicide and more likely to be impulse driven and successful.  Something as moderate as a 3 day waiting period for gun can possibly give the person a chance to come down from rhe impulse or get help.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Lifers??????  WTF does that mean in that context?


People serving life in prison in Canada, and West Europe live in humane conditions.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> These items are necessary and not as destructive as guns.


You’re kidding right?  Swords and Axes are far more destructive than guns and guns are necessary to a low of people.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> You’re kidding right?  Swords and Axes are far more destructive than guns and guns are necessary to a low of people.


Every pro-gun argument can be used as pro-Fentanyl argument.  Yet fentanyl is banned.


----------



## Baron Von Murderpaws (Sep 4, 2021)

I can honestly and factually say..........
the "cops" around here don't even bother with their jobs.

You'd be hard pressed to find a police vehicle ANYWHERE in this city, much less any little corrupt piggy doing the jobs they are supposed to be doing!!!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> cool...now go back to your 2A echochamber moron, since you can't possibly concrie of using very moderate gun control measures to lower suicide rates here.


What is a moderate gun control measure?

concrie???????


----------



## AZrailwhale (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> As a Jew I believe they will not suffer more then a few millennia.


I had a feeling I should have said Judeo-Christianity instead.


----------



## progressive hunter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> If you troll people don't whine when they turn around and give it back. Put on your big boy pants and suck it up.
> Mental health issues don't don't exist in a vacuum.  Men in this country are more likely to use a gun for suicide and more likely to be impulse driven and successful.  Something as moderate as a 3 day waiting period for gun can possibly give the person a chance to come down from rhe impulse or get help.


what happened to my body my choice???

guess that only matters when a women wants to kill her child,,


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Every pro-gun argument can be used as pro-Fentanyl argument.  Yet fentanyl is banned.


Bullshit.  

Go for it, and let us embarrass you!


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Dipshit......Murdock states this...you asshole...
> 
> They don't say....this only applies to First Amendment protections...you dope...
> 
> ...


You’re the typical dishonest, willfully ignorant conservative.

From your link:

“The flat license tax here involved restrains in advance the Constitutional liberties of *press and religion*, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise.”

The ruling concerned *only *the First Amendment, not the Second.

The fact that jurisdictions currently assess a fee for a concealed carry license or permit is further proof that you are wrong, the Supreme Court having ruled as to their constitutionality.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 4, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> Go for it, and let us embarrass you!


I am sorry -- I have urgent work.  Back tomorrow.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Progressive Liberals support deaths of unborn children.


This is a lie.

Neither progressives nor liberals support the ‘killing’ of children.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> I consistently value *human life and human rights*.


No, you don't any more than anyone else.  Your ethics are screwed up!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> I am sorry -- I have urgent work.  Back tomorrow.


Make sure you have enough toilet paper before you sit down to work!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> If you troll people don't whine when they turn around and give it back. Put on your big boy pants and suck it up.
> Mental health issues don't don't exist in a vacuum.  Men in this country are more likely to use a gun for suicide and more likely to be impulse driven and successful.  Something as moderate as a 3 day waiting period for gun can possibly give the person a chance to come down from rhe impulse or get help.


Florida had a 3-day waiting period.  It performed no function except waste gasoline.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> You’re the typical dishonest, willfully ignorant conservative.
> 
> From your link:
> 
> ...




You are the liar....I posted exactly what they ruled on all Rights......it wasn't limited to religion and the press, you idiot.....you are the liar....

No one has brought case before the previously split Court on fees...because they didn't know how Roberts was going to rule and before him the court was still split 4-4 with that idiot Kennedy as the never reliable swing vote...you doofus.

Murdock v. Pennsylvania: 319 U.S. 105 (1943)
Murdock v. Pennsylvania 319 U.S. 105 (1943)

*Held:*
*- A municipal ordinance which, as construed and applied, requires religious colporteurs** to pay a license tax as a condition to the pursuit of their activities, is invalid under the Federal Constitution as a denial of freedom of speech, press and religion.




- A State may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution.*

*[Notice......it does not limit this to just speech, religion or press....it states "Enjoyment of a Right granted by the Federal Constitution.....you know nothing dumb ass.....]*



*- The flat license tax here involved restrains in advance the Constitutional liberties of press and religion, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise

Opinion:
...It is contended, however, that the fact that the license tax can suppress or control this activity is unimportant if it does not do so. But that is to disregard the nature of this tax. *

*It is a license tax -- a flat tax imposed on the exercise of a privilege granted by the Bill of Rights. A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution....*

*[Notice......it does not limit this to just speech, religion or press....it states "Enjoyment of a Right granted by the Federal Constitution.....you know nothing dumb ass.....]*


*... The power to impose a license tax on the exercise of these freedoms is indeed as potent as the power of censorship which this Court has repeatedly struck down...*

*... It is a flat license tax levied and collected as a condition to the pursuit of activities whose enjoyment is guaranteed by the First Amendment. Accordingly, it restrains in advance those constitutional liberties of press and religion, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise...*
Murdock v. Pennsylvania 319 U.S. 105 (1943)


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> what happened to my body my choice???
> 
> guess that only matters when a women wants to kill her child,,



Mental illness is a disease.  If someone,  in a rational state of mind, wants to end their life, it is their choice.


----------



## progressive hunter (Sep 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Mental illness is a disease.  If someone,  in a rational state of mind, wants to end their life, it is their choice.


you would know all about mental illness first hand,,

so why are you saying they cant have a gun because they will commit suicide??


----------



## beautress (Sep 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> By all means…
> 
> Let untrained and uncleared morons run around with guns


Driving while texting causes far more fatalities per capita than guns. I leave cellphones at home, and my gun is used only to shoot water mocassins, rattlers, coral snakes and copperheads that meet at twilight time at the pond. The little gun never leaves my farmstead, and I avoid going out at day's beginning and day's end. Why worry since most people don't use guns when they are not needed as a chore.

We just honor the Second Amendment rights in Texas. that's all.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> you would know all about mental illness first hand,,
> 
> so why are you saying they cant have a gun because they will commit suicide??


I didn't.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 4, 2021)

KissMy said:


> Crime went up in St Louis, MO when the same was done here.




You don't know what you are talking about......

*As for Everytown’s claims, just take a look at what’s happened in Florida since they “weakened their permitting process” in 1987. From 1988 to 2019, the state’s homicide rate declined from 11.1 to 5.2 per 100,000; a drop of more than 50%. Similarly, overall violent crime rates fell from a whopping 1,117.7 in 1988 to 378.4 in 2019. At the same time, the number of Floridians with concealed carry licenses grew from 0 to nearly 2,000,000.*

*Arizona adopted Constitutional Carry in 2010, and since then its homicide rate has fallen from 6.4 to 5.0 per 100,000. In Kansas the homicide rate has declined from 4.3 to 3.6 per 100k in the first three years that the law was in place. During that same time period, murders in “may issue” Maryland rose from 8.0 to 9.0 per 100k.*









						Houston Mayor Misleads On Constitutional Carry
					

Houston Mayor Sylvester Turner is entitled to his opinion, but he's not entitled to his own set of facts.




					bearingarms.com


----------



## Coyote (Sep 4, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> They do?  So all of the people I know who committed suicide by drugs were the exception?
> 
> The only thing relative about you is the the fact that you are relatively stupid.


He is right you know.  Most suicide attempts with drugs fail.  Most with guns are successful.









						Suicide statistics
					

Learn the latest statistics on suicide. Data on suicide are taken from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Data & Statistics Fatal Injury Report for 2018, as of March 1, 2020. Suicide rates listed are Age-Adjusted Rates.



					afsp.org
				




In 2019, firearms accounted for 50.39% of all suicide deaths.



Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Florida had a 3-day waiting period.  It performed no function except waste gasoline.


You know this how?


----------



## Stann (Sep 5, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> I stand corrected on the rates, but my point still stands concerning suicides and gun ownership.


there is no correlation; you are mixing apples and oranges when comparing US and Japanese suicide rates. Guns matter here, they are not a factor in Japan.


----------



## Gracie (Sep 5, 2021)

I should move to texas. Alas.........


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> He is right you know. Most suicide attempts with drugs fail. Most with guns are successful.



With drugs, you have an hour to change your mind
With a gun, you have a split second to change your mind


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> cool...now go back to your 2A echochamber moron, since you can't possibly concrie of using very moderate gun control measures to lower suicide rates here.


You cannot demonstrate that any of the resritction syou seek for the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by the law abiding will do anything to reduce suicide rates .


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I don't hate guns and I'm a gun owner.  I just hate psychopathic gun nuts like you who oppose any restrictions whatsoever, no matter what.


I oppose unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms by the law abiding.
Don't you?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Stann said:


> I didn't say all guns,,,


You said:
"That's why no one should have access to weapons capable of killing many in just minutes."      
Every mass shooting ever committed in the US -- except one -- could have been equally perpetrated with a pump-action shotgun - or a revolver.
Thus, you want to ban all guns.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> *Any weapon* enabling suicide or murder.


Knives.  Baseball bats.   Automobiles.  
Right?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Most attempts without guns fail.


This only means people who choose a gun are committing to dying.
Thus, the absence of a gun will not keep them alive.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Huh.   It happens all over America. Its not new.


And it's not an issue.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> These items are necessary and not as destructive as guns.


Ah.
This means you lied when you said "any weapon".
Why do you need to lie to make a point?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Every pro-gun argument can be used as pro-Fentanyl argument.


^^^^
This is an outright lie.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> You’re the typical dishonest, willfully ignorant conservative.


Speaking of dishonest...
Tell us why you refuse to agree the TX abortion law is constitutional


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 5, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Neither progressives nor liberals support the ‘killing’ of children.


^^^
This is a lie.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> He is right you know.  Most suicide attempts with drugs fail.  Most with guns are successful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I lived in Florida!


----------



## Flash (Sep 5, 2021)

There are 46 states that allow open carry.

However, most of the gun crimes in this country are in Democrat controlled big city shitholes that have stringent gun laws and do not allow open carry.

If it was up to most police they would not want anybody else in the country to have guns except themselves.  Kinda of like the Taliban in Afghanistan declaring the other day that no citizen can have a gun but they can.

Thank god for the Bill of Rights that says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Piss on anybody that hates the Bill of Rights.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

Stann said:


> there is no correlation; you are mixing apples and oranges when comparing US and Japanese suicide rates. Guns matter here, they are not a factor in Japan.


Gun ownership doesn't cause people to commit suicide, is my point.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.
> 
> Neither progressives nor liberals support the ‘killing’ of children.


You support abortion, so you're lying.


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 5, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Gun ownership doesn't cause people to commit suicide, is my point.


A suicidal person will look longingly at his gun


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> You’re the typical dishonest, willfully ignorant conservative.
> 
> From your link:
> 
> ...


Concealed carry permits are no different than a poll tax and the court ruled that a right cannot be taxed.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> A suicidal person will look longingly at his gun


And if he don't have a gun, he'll figure out another way.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Are you a liberal, expecting government to diaper your bottom?


I was responding to a poster that demands mandatory training.  Anyone who wants mandatory training should have no problem with the tax payers footing the bill.  Right?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> A suicidal person will look longingly at his gun


How long have you contemplated suicide?  Shouldn't you talk to someone?


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I would disagree on that.


The right to have an abortion appears no where in the Constitution.  The right to own and carry a gun has it's very own amendment.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 5, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> I was responding to a poster that demands mandatory training.  Anyone who wants mandatory training should have no problem with the tax payers footing the bill.  Right?


No.  Why should the taxpayer pay for something that is unconstitutional?


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> No.  Why should the taxpayer pay for something that is unconstitutional?


As long as there are people demanding training, those people should have some skin in the game.

There's already a tax on guns and ammunition under the Pittman-Robertson Act that should find that sort of thing.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 5, 2021)

Who_Me? said:


> Oh I do.   Related to a couple in fact.



  On whose side?


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 5, 2021)

KissMy said:


> Crime went up in St Louis, MO when the same was done here.



  Got a link?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> He is right you know.  Most suicide attempts with drugs fail.  Most with guns are successful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And if they didn't have guns they would have done it another way......jumping in front of a bullet train is just as fatal.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> He is right you know.  Most suicide attempts with drugs fail.  Most with guns are successful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Back in the 1990s a girl my mother worked with committed suicide.....she sat in her car in a remote parking lot, and poured gasoline over herself and lit a match.....she had been dumped by her boyfriend and didn't want anyone stopping her...

You are an idiot....you don't understand any of the issues we discuss...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

Stann said:


> there is no correlation; you are mixing apples and oranges when comparing US and Japanese suicide rates. Guns matter here, they are not a factor in Japan.




Moron...they kill themselves at a higher rate than we do and they don't use guns...guns are not the issue.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

Flash said:


> There are 46 states that allow open carry.
> 
> However, most of the gun crimes in this country are in Democrat controlled big city shitholes that have stringent gun laws and do not allow open carry.
> 
> ...




That isn't true about the police...

*More than 91 percent of respondents support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or not been deemed psychologically/medically incapable.
A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent).*
Police Gun Control Survey: Are legally-armed citizens the best solution to gun violence?
=======

https://crimeresearch.org/2018/05/n...ncealed-handgun-reciprocity-and-other-issues/


National Association of Chiefs of Police Annual Surveys on Concealed Handgun Reciprocity and other issues - Crime Prevention Research Center

Concealed carry reciprocity: Support

29th annual Survey..... 88.62%
28th.............................86.4%
27th.............................63.3%

Can armed citizens help lower violent crime activity: Support

29th......75.77%
28th......76%
27th.......76.4%


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> A suicidal person will look longingly at his gun




And tall buildings, trains, ropes, medicine cabinets....


----------



## KissMy (Sep 5, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Got a link?


September 2014, Missouri lawmakers passed SB 656 allowing school employees to carry concealed guns on campuses. It also allows permitless concealed & open carry by any resident 19 years of age or older who may lawfully own a gun in cities or towns with bans against it.


----------



## Flash (Sep 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> That isn't true about the police...
> 
> *More than 91 percent of respondents support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or not been deemed psychologically/medically incapable.
> A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent).*
> ...


I hear some police say that they are pro gun but I don't trust them.  I suspect that if the order ever went out to confiscate firearms many of them in the US would gladly do it.  Maybe not every one but a great many.


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> And tall buildings, trains, ropes, medicine cabinets....


But for some reason, when given a choice, most turn to their trusty gun


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

KissMy said:


> September 2014, Missouri lawmakers passed SB 656 allowing specially trained school employees to carry concealed guns on campuses. It also allows permitless concealed & open carry by any resident 19 years of age or older who may lawfully own a gun in cities or towns with bans against it.



Moron....law abiding gun owners who carry in public aren't shooting people...you dumb ass.....

The reason murder is going up in St. Louis is the democrat party is letting repeat gun offenders out on bail and out of jail and prison...you idiot....

Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia

Soros-Funded St. Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner Refuses to Charge Killer of 7-Year-Old Child Despite Suspect's Confession

*Last week a suspect was arrested in the fatal shooting of 7-year-old Xavier Usanga in north St. Louis last Monday evening.

According to KSDK Usanga was shot and killed while playing outside of his Hyde Park home Monday, according to St. Louis Metro Police Cheif John Hayden. An 18-year-old man standing nearby was injured in the backyard of the Usangas’ home, in the 3500 block of North 14th Street, just after 5 p.m. Monday evening.

The suspect confessed to the shooting that killed 7-year-old Usanga.


But when they brought this confession and evidence to the St. Louis City’s circuit attorney’s office Kim Gardner threw it out.

Gardner said based on current evidence she was not able to determine who was responsible for the child’s death.

Again… The suspect confessed to the crime but that was not enough for this radical lunatic in the Circuit Attorney’s Office.*

*Democrats in charge since 1949

Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia


Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why*

*Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.*

*At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,” an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.

-----------*

*Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. **Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
----
When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*

*In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*

*Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?

But many challenges remain, official said. *

*The department is still down more than 130 officers. *

*Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.*

*On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.*



*Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?*


You are a doofus.........if the democrats stopped releasing violent gun offenders, the gun crime rate would go down....normal people carrying guns doesn't increase the gun crime rate, you dumb ass.....


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron....law abiding gun owners who carry in public aren't shooting people...you dumb ass.....



Yes, by definition they are law abiding gun owners until they decide not to be


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Yes, by definition they are law abiding gun owners until they decide not to be




Nope.......criminals are criminals from early on in their lives....guns do not turn people into criminals......


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Nope.......criminals are criminals from early on in their lives....guns do not turn people into criminals......


One of the dumbest things you have ever posted


----------



## KissMy (Sep 5, 2021)

Owning & carrying guns don't do shit unless the law allows us to shoot criminals. All that has happened is criminals can now easily carry a gun un-checked, shaken-down or arrested until they fire it.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

KissMy said:


> Owning & carrying guns don't do shit unless the law allows us to shoot criminals. All that has happened is criminals can now easily carry a gun un-checked, shaken-down or arrested until they fire it.




Are you this stupid in real life, or just when you post.

When the police stop someone who has a gun, you dumb shit, they can run their name in their computer.....if they have convictions, warrants, or mental health holds, you dumb shit....they can arrest them if they have a gun....you moron.....


----------



## KissMy (Sep 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Are you this stupid in real life, or just when you post.
> 
> When the police stop someone who has a gun, you dumb shit, they can run their name in their computer.....if they have convictions, warrants, or mental health holds, you dumb shit....they can arrest them if they have a gun....you moron.....


Dear Retard: It's illegal to stop someone to background check them in Missouri because they are carrying a gun! Police must wait until they see them use it to commit a crime first.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 5, 2021)

KissMy said:


> September 2014, Missouri lawmakers passed SB 656 allowing school employees to carry concealed guns on campuses. It also allows permitless concealed & open carry by any resident 19 years of age or older who may lawfully own a gun in cities or towns with bans against it.



   But can you show causation.
Looking at your graph it has been in a steady incline since 2004.
   While it did jump after the law passed can you honestly blame open carry?


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 5, 2021)

KissMy said:


> September 2014, Missouri lawmakers passed SB 656 allowing school employees to carry concealed guns on campuses. It also allows permitless concealed & open carry by any resident 19 years of age or older who may lawfully own a gun in cities or towns with bans against it.



  It'll be interesting to see if Texas has an increase in gun violence since pretty much everyone has a fire arm.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 5, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> As long as there are people demanding training, those people should have some skin in the game.
> 
> There's already a tax on guns and ammunition under the Pittman-Robertson Act that should find that sort of thing.


That tax is for wildlife programs.  You do not understand the difference?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

KissMy said:


> Dear Retard: It's illegal to stop someone to background check them in Missouri because they are carrying a gun! Police must wait until they see them use it to commit a crime first.



Hey shitbird, when they stop the idiot for any other reason and run his name they can arrest them.    The cops know who the gang members are you dumb ass and when they catch them for speeding, or drug dealing or robbery they find the gun and arrest them you doofus.   The problem isnt catching the criminals you moron, the problem is idiots like you keep releasing them over and over again.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> But can you show causation.
> Looking at your graph it has been in a steady incline since 2004.
> While it did jump after the law passed can you honestly blame open carry?



No you cant.  I posted the reason their murder rates went up and it had nothing to so with normal people carrying guns.  The democrats are
Releasing gun criminals over and over again.


----------



## Missourian (Sep 5, 2021)

I couple of years ago I was pulled over by a Texas State Trooper for a random paperwork check.  I tell him I have a firearm in my pocket.  He asks if I am legally allowed to CCW.  I say yes.  Never asked for my permit or the firearm.  He asked me back to his car to go over the paperwork (pre-covid)...and there I sat next to him with a .380 in my pocket and he didn't worry one bit about it.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 5, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> That tax is for wildlife programs.  You do not understand the difference?


The Pittman-Robertson Act is designed to raise money to promote gun safety.  You should have done more thorough research...

"It was also mandated that half of the money from each of the new taxes be used to educate and train hunters by the creation and maintenance of hunter safety classes and shooting/target ranges."





__





						Pittman–Robertson Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 6, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> The Pittman-Robertson Act is designed to raise money to promote gun safety.  You should have done more thorough research...
> 
> "It was also mandated that half of the money from each of the new taxes be used to educate and train hunters by the creation and maintenance of hunter safety classes and shooting/target ranges."
> 
> ...





Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> The Pittman-Robertson Act is designed to raise money to promote gun safety.  You should have done more thorough research..
> *"It was also mandated that half of the money from each of the new taxes be used to educate and train hunters by the creation and maintenance of hunter safety classes and shooting/target ranges."*
> 
> 
> ...



Hey, shit for brains!  Apparently you cannot read.  The name of the bill is points to federal aid in wildlife restoration. The bill containing the highlighted text is part of an amendment passed b the House of Representatives in 1974. * It never became law. *  Stop arguing about shit that you apparently cannot read for comprehension.


*Introduced in the House* *as* H.R. 3590 *by* Rep. Robert E. Latta (R, OH-5) *on* November 21, 2013
*Passed the House on* February 5, 2014 (Roll Call Vote #41: 268-154)









						Sportsmen's Heritage And Recreational Enhancement Act of 2013 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 6, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Hey, shit for brains!  Apparently you cannot read.  The name of the bill is points to federal aid in wildlife restoration. The bill containing the highlighted text is part of an amendment passed b the House of Representatives in 1974. * It never became law. *  Stop arguing about shit that you apparently cannot read for comprehension.
> 
> 
> *Introduced in the House* *as* H.R. 3590 *by* Rep. Robert E. Latta (R, OH-5) *on* November 21, 2013
> ...


"Cannot read for comprehension"? ..lol.  WTF does that even mean?  You probably oughta stop with the insults.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Sep 6, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> "Cannot read for comprehension"? ..lol.  WTF does that even mean?  You probably oughta stop with the insults.


Why stop with insults?  It is because you know you are stupid and it hurts your widdle feewings?

Reading for comprehension is a skill taught in school.

The simple sentence:  "The dog has spots"  is very easy to read, but they are just words strung together.  If you do not know what a dog is, or what is meant by "spots", you really did not understand what you read.

You missed the fact that no mention was made of your bill ever becoming law.  You cannot read for comprehension.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Sep 6, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Why stop with insults?  It is because you know you are stupid and it hurts your widdle feewings?
> 
> Reading for comprehension is a skill taught in school.
> 
> ...


Your insults are proof that you know you're wrong.


----------



## McFury (Sep 6, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> And they talk about Florida LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We should have left Texicans to Mexicans.
The war in Alamo to free that state was a big mistake.
That State and its population should be all kicked out of USA and send them all back to Mexico.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 6, 2021)

McFury said:


> We should have left Texicans to Mexicans.
> The war in Alamo to free that state was a big mistake.
> That State and its population should be all kicked out of USA and send them all back to Mexico.


Said no rational, reasoned person, ever.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 6, 2021)

Coyote said:


> If you troll people don't whine when they turn around and give it back. Put on your big boy pants and suck it up.
> Mental health issues don't don't exist in a vacuum.  Men in this country are more likely to use a gun for suicide and more likely to be impulse driven and successful.  Something as moderate as a 3 day waiting period for gun can possibly give the person a chance to come down from rhe impulse or get help.




Studies have shown they have had no effect on suicide rates...but thanks for playing


----------



## McFury (Sep 6, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Said no rational, reasoned person, ever.


I'm from Boston Massachusetts.
To us all Texas is a wild country of ignorant stupid cowboys.
Including their indians and Mexicans too.
They should all move to Mexico.
We live in a very sophisticated country.
Go Away Texicans...


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 6, 2021)

McFury said:


> I'm from Boston Massachusetts.
> To us all Texas is a wild country of ignorant stupid cowboys.


Because of your liberal bigotry.


----------



## McFury (Sep 6, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Because of your liberal bigotry.


What's wrong with being liberal?
Better than being a stupid asshol or a stupid bitch from the south.
You conservatives are destroying America.
If you don't like USA
Get the Fuck Out.
American values are European values  and not from Mexico.
Stupid.


----------



## KissMy (Sep 6, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> But can you show causation.
> Looking at your graph it has been in a steady incline since 2004.
> While it did jump after the law passed can you honestly blame open carry?


You people are always full of excuses when your gun theories are always proven wrong. Illinois & Chicago's homicide rate has been soaring ever since Illinois allowed gun ownership & CCW.

I've been a gun owned since I was 12 years old & always had 4 or more guns since 18 years old. I'm not ever giving up my guns, but I'm not going to be a stupid liar like you & claim more guns = less shootings.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 6, 2021)

KissMy said:


> You people are always full of excuses when your gun theories are always proven wrong. Illinois & Chicago's homicide rate has been soaring ever since Illinois allowed gun ownership & CCW.
> 
> I've been a gun owned since I was 12 years old & always had 4 or more guns since 18 years old. I'm not ever giving up my guns, but I'm not going to be a stupid liar like you & claim more guns = less shootings.



  LoL....than why do the states and cities with the most stringent gun laws have the highest murder rates involving guns?
And no I dont believe you have any guns.
   And if you did isnt it a bit hypocritical of you to say what you're saying? Of course it is.
Now go and play with your Red Rider.


----------



## KissMy (Sep 6, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> LoL....than why do the states and cities with the most stringent gun laws have the highest murder rates involving guns?
> And no I dont believe you have any guns.
> And if you did isnt it a bit hypocritical of you to say what you're saying? Of course it is.
> Now go and play with your Red Rider.


How is it hypocritical of me a gun owner to say more guns in peoples hands = more shooting?

I wore out the old Crosman BB/pellet gun the 2nd year shooting Mice, Rats, Sparrows & Starlings that were eating the crop, destroying the farm equipment & buildings. I now have a .30 M1 carbine, 12GA Remington 870 Express Super Magnum, .22 Marlin Rifle tube feed w/scope, 9mm Beretta Nano to replace my stolen EAA Witness-P .45 ACP w/Laser & .177 Gamo Wildcat Whisper w/scope. Also 1,150 Rounds of Ammo!


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 7, 2021)

KissMy said:


> You people are always full of excuses when your gun theories are always proven wrong. Illinois & Chicago's homicide rate has been soaring ever since Illinois allowed gun ownership & CCW.
> 
> I've been a gun owned since I was 12 years old & always had 4 or more guns since 18 years old. I'm not ever giving up my guns, but I'm not going to be a stupid liar like you & claim more guns = less shootings.




Are you this stupid....our gun crime rate here in Chicago was always higher than other cities, including New York and L.A....you dumb ass...please, do some fucking research before you post.......

The reason Chicago has such a high gun murder rate is the democrat party refuses to prosecute criminals who use guns.....as each police superintendent here has stated, we have a revolving door policy for repeat gun offenders, you moron.....

And since 2015, when the democrat party decided to go after the police, instead of criminals, it has gotten worse.

Chicago...

Man fatally shot one victim, wounded another while free on recognizance bond and electronic monitoring, prosecutors say | CWB Chicago

It’s been 18 months since Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart warned that he was “alarmed” by the number of accused gun offenders who were being released on their own recognizance, sometimes with electronic monitoring.

*“This needs to get fixed quick,”* Dart told the _Sun-Times_ in Feb. 2018.

It hasn’t been fixed.

Yesterday, 18-year-old Antwane Lashley was in bond court, accused of shooting a man to death on Aug. 23. Prosecutors say he also shot and seriously wounded a woman at the same time. Lashley has been free on his own recognizance with electronic monitoring since prosecutors charged him with possessing a handgun illegally this spring.

Cook County Board President Toni Preckwinkle wasted no time criticizing Dart’s concerns last year.

“I believe it is our responsibility to keep these matters in context and not contribute to sensationalizing them,” Preckwinkle told Dart in a letter days later.

As recently as Friday, Preckwinkle called concerns about people committing violent crimes while free on affordable bail, *a “fear tactic.” *She has also *defended easy bail conditions* for gun possession. Some people who live in less-safe neighborhoods feel the need to carry guns for their own protection, she says.

*A gun, freedom, then a murder*
Around 7:30 p.m. on May 20th, cops in Humboldt Park saw Antwane Lashley walking quickly on the 3800 block of West Chicago. He saw police nearby and began running, holding his right pocket as he fled, a police spokesperson said last night.

Lashley took a handgun out of his pocket, threw it, and kept running, the spokesperson said. Officers caught him nearby while other cops retrieved the gun he allegedly threw.

Prosecutors charged Lashley with felony aggravated unlawful use of a weapon. He appeared in court the next afternoon and was set free on his own recognizance with an order to go onto electronic monitoring, according to court records.

Then, last Friday, Neal Sumrell and a woman were sitting in a car on the 4200 block of West Iowa in Humboldt Park. Around 8:15 p.m., someone walked up to their vehicle and opened fire. Sumrell, 34, was shot seven times in the upper body. He died. The woman tried to run away, police said. She was shot three times throughout her body, but managed to survive.

Lashley—on juvenile probation for aggravated battery causing great bodily harm—was arrested at his home Thursday evening, just one block from the murder scene. Police say he’s the gunman who killed Sumrell and injured the 28-year-old woman who tried to run away.

Prosecutors yesterday charged Lashley with first-degree murder, attempted first-degree murder, and aggravated battery by discharging a firearm. Judge Mary Marubio ordered him held without bail.

“Victims deserve better,” said Anthony Guglielmi, the police department’s chief communications officer early Sunday. “We are going to continue to be the voice for those who have been silenced by gun violence.”

*Not the first*
Lashley is hardly the first person to be accused of killing or trying to kill someone while free on the county's affordable bail program. Among similar cases reported by _CWBChicago_:

*In May 2018*, Daryl Williams was charged with fatally shooting a man in the back of the head. He was free on a recognizance bond at the time while awaiting trial for allegedly possessing a stolen firearm the previous November.

*In June of last year*, Carnell Morris was charged with being an armed habitual criminal after police said they found a gun in his car. He posted a $1,000 bond. Six months later, while awaiting trial for the gun case, Morris was charged with attempted murder after he allegedly shot a 51-year-old man.

*Just three months ago*, repeat gun offender Antawan Smith was charged with murdering a 15-year-old. He was free on a $6,000 deposit bond while awaiting trial for allegedly being an armed habitual criminal.


Chief judge says there have been no "horrible incidents" under his affordable bail program. These people might disagree, if they only they were still alive.

Two years into an “affordable bail” initiative that is allowing most accused gun offenders and even accused murderers to be released from jail to await trial, Cook County’s chief judge says the program is working fabulously.
----------

There are likely many people who would disagree with Evans’ definition of “horrible incidents” — if they were still alive to do so.

• On Feb. 9, Daryl Williams violated the terms of a court-ordered curfew, secured an illegal handgun, and then fatally shot 45-year-old Daniel Smith in the back of the head, prosecutors allege.

*Three months earlier, Judge Stephanie Miller released Williams on a recognizance bond after he was charged with illegally possessing a stolen handgun near a “shots fired” incident on the South Side.*

“That was me,” Williams allegedly told police. “I let off two rounds to see if [the gun] worked.”

Williams is now being held without bail as he awaits trial for murder.

*Facts first. 100% reader-funded. Click here to support CWBChicago today.*

• In August, someone fatally shot 34-year-old Neal Sumrell as he sat in his car in Humboldt Park. Someone also shot a woman who was in Sumrell’s vehicle as she tried to run away.

Prosecutors say they know who at least one of the shooters was: Antwane Lashley.

*The 18-year-old who was free on a recognizance bond and electronic monitoring at the time of the shootings after cops said they caught him with an illegal handgun on the West Side in May.*

Lashley was on juvenile probation for aggravated battery, causing great bodily harm at the time of his gun arrest, according to court records. He is now being held without bail as he awaits trial for murder.

•* In May, prosecutors say, 30-year-old Antawan Smith murdered 15-year-old Jaylin Ellzey in a drive-by shooting. When police arrested Smith during a traffic stop two weeks later, officers reported finding a loaded handgun in his car.

At the time of the murder, Smith was free on bail while awaiting trial for Class X felony armed violence with a weapon; felony manufacture-delivery of cocaine; felony repeated unlawful use of a weapon by a felon,* and felony aggravated fleeing. Smith was on parole for illegal possession of a handgun when cops arrested him on those charges in September. His bond amount? $6,000.

He’s now held without bail as he awaits trial for Ellzey’s murder and the earlier charges.

• In May 2018, a judge released 18-year-old Randy Wilson to await trial after prosecutors charged him with criminal trespass to a vehicle. But things escalated when Chicago police allegedly found him carrying a handgun illegally one month later. But, another judge released him to await trial again.

Three weeks later, a 50-year-old man told police that Wilson and three other men robbed him and two teenagers on the South Side. Police arrested Wilson and wrote in a report that he was wearing an electronic monitoring bracelet when they found him. Prosecutors charged him with two counts of attempted robbery with a firearm.

He paid a $2,500 deposit bond to get out of jail. And, of course, the judge ordered him to be on electronic monitoring which didn’t help much before.

Gunday: A look at how the courts are handling some recent weapons charges in Chicago

*Near North incident*
You may remember our Oct. 30 report about a Near North woman who called police because a man fired a shot through her door after she kicked him out of her apartment on the 700 block of North Dearborn.The woman called police again early on Nov. 2 after she and her brother saw the alleged offender in the first block of West Huron.Officers arrived and arrested 35-year-old Christopher Stanley after confirming that the victim identified him by name in her police report, according to court records. During a search, police allegedly found a handgun in Stanley’s possession.Prosecutors charged Stanley with being a felon in possession of a firearm but not with the alleged shooting. Judge John Lyke set bail at $5,000 and Stanley went free by posting a $500 deposit bond.In May 2002, prosecutors dropped four counts of attempted murder and four other felonies in a plea deal with Stanley. In exchange for pleading guilty to aggravated discharge of a firearm, Stanley received a sentence of eight years, court records show.


*Then you have this.....a gun charge while on parole for an illegal gun charge....

Gun charge while on parole for a gun charge*

A man who escaped an armed habitual criminal charge in a plea deal with prosecutors two years ago is now charged with being an armed habitual criminal again after police say they found him with a gun in Old Town.

*Chervon Jackson, 31, was paroled in January after serving half of a four-year sentence that he received for unlawful possession of a firearm by a felon in 2017.*

Then, on Nov. 3, police pulled over a car on the 1200 block of North Sedgwick because its plates were expired. Officers asked all of the vehicle’s occupants to step out of the car after the driver allegedly admitted that a drink container in the center console contained Hennessey cognac.

Seated in the passenger seat, Jackson made “furtive movements” and did not immediately step out of the car, police said. Once he was outside, police allegedly found a .45-caliber in his waistband.

Prosecutors charged him with Class X felony armed habitual criminal, felony unlawful use of a weapon, and misdemeanor obstruction of identification. In addition to the 2017 gun case, police say Jackson was also convicted of unlawful use of a weapon and burglary in 2004.

Judge Charles Beach ordered Jackson held without bail and the Illinois Department of Corrections issued a warrant for a parole violation, according to court records.


Court records reveal even more men charged with murder, shootings while free on "affordable bail"

It’s been two months since Cook County Chief Judge Timothy Evans said, “it’s not by magic that we haven’t had any horrible incidents occur using this new [affordable bail] system,” during budget hearings on Nov. 4.

Since then, we’ve told you about seven different people who are currently facing murder charges for crimes that they allegedly committed while free on “affordable bail” awaiting trial for charges such as Class X felony armed violence, unlawful use of a weapon, and repeated use of a weapon by a felon.

It’s hard to fathom how Evans would conclude that those murders and shootings committed by persons on affordable bail weren’t “horrible incidents.”

Since November, our team has come across new cases in which men have been charged with killing or shooting people while on affordable bail awaiting trial for serious crimes. Here’s a look at these new “not horrible” situations:

Last February, prosecutors charged 19-year-old Armando Lopez with felony aggravated unlawful use of a weapon, felony possession of a controlled substance, and driving on a revoked license after Chicago police allegedly found a rifle in his vehicle on the 2700 block of South Kedzie. Judge David Navarro allowed Lopez to go home after posting a $500 bond.

While he was out, Lopez got another gun which he used to shoot and killed 32-year-old nurse Frank Aguilar whom he mistook for a rival gang member on Nov. 13, according to allegations in court records.

Lopez is now being held without bail.

In April 2019, prosecutors charged 24-year-old Josue Becerra with having a loaded 45-caliber handgun in his vehicle in Albany Park. Judge David Navarro released him for $200.

Then, on July 23, police were flagged down by a man who told them that three men in a red Jeep pointed a gun at him near the 4900 block of North Milwaukee. A few minutes later, officers tried to pull Becerra over as he drove a red Jeep nearby. Police say he sped away, drove in the wrong lane, and cruised onto the Kennedy Expressway before they caught up with him. He was charged with fleeing and eluding, possession of ecstasy, and multiple traffic violations.

Even though he was still on bail for the April gun violation, Judge Charles Beach let him go home by posting another $500 bond.

Finally, on Jan. 21, a couple of Chicago cops said they were doing undercover surveillance when they heard gunfire and saw Becerra run past their covert car with a gun in his hand.

Police tried to stop him, but Becerra got into a car that sped away and eventually crashed in North Center. He and the driver were immediately arrested

Horribly, the shots left a 43-year-old man in critical condition. Prosecutors charged Becerra with attempted murder, aggravated unlawful use of a weapon, aggravated battery of a police officer, and aggravated assault of a police officer. This time, he was ordered held without bail.



A man on parole for his third gun conviction was arrested near Montrose Harbor after he allegedly pointed a handgun at a driver on Lake Shore Drive during a road rage incident Sunday evening. Police tracked the man down by using CPD’s extensive network of lakefront cameras and license plate readers.



Esparza was paroled in September 2020 after serving half of a five-year sentence that he received for being a felon in possession of a firearm in 2018. He previously received three years for being a felon in possession of a firearm in 2016. Before that, he received a three-year sentence for being a felon in possession of a firearm in 2014. He also has a 2009 conviction for possession of a stolen motor vehicle.





Man on parole for 3rd gun case is charged with brandishing firearm during Lake Shore Drive road rage clash | CWB Chicago



Chicago...



What have you been up to for the past 13 months or so?

If you’re Shemar Barber, you’ve been charged with illegal gun possession five times. Well, he did do more than that. He went to prison for one of the gun cases, but the state released him on the day he arrived. The other three gun cases, including one he picked up Sunday, are still pending.

It all started on June 27 of last year when prosecutors charged him illegally carrying a gun in West Englewood. He posted a $200 deposit to get out of jail on that.

On August 13, prosecutors charged him with carrying another gun illegally in West Englewood. He posted a $3,000 deposit, and a judge told him to stay in the house from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m., but the judge didn’t make him wear a device to enforce the curfew, records show.

Then, on April 22, prosecutors charged him with another felony count of illegally carrying a firearm in West Englewood.

He pleaded guilty to one of the earlier felony gun cases on May 20. A judge sentenced him to one year in prison, records show. Authorities shipped him to Stateville Correctional Center on May 24, gave him the state’s standard 50% sentence reduction and credit for time spent in jail after his arrest, and sent him home the same day.

On Saturday, police who responded to a call of a person with a gun saw Barber on the street and determined he matched the gunman’s description, prosecutors said this week. He saw the cops and began walking away while holding his waistband, prosecutors said. When officers stopped him, he allegedly had a loaded handgun tucked into his pants.

Prosecutors on Sunday charged him with felony aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and three counts of resisting police.

“The state outlines for me a roadmap that is alarming,” Judge John Lyke said after hearing the latest allegations. “This defendant is 19 years of age. Nineteen. Just pled guilty in May to a gun case. So that gives him one felony. He got one year. But he has two other pending gun cases. And now he’s in front of me with another gun case. So that’s 4 gun cases in the matter of about a year.”

Lyke set bail at $250,000 and ordered Barber to go onto electronic monitoring if he can post a 10% deposit. The judge also ordered Barber held without bail for violating the terms of bond in the other two pending gun cases.

Prosecutors did not mention any state plans to revoke Barber’s parole.

Meet the Chicago man who's been charged with illegal gun possession 4 times in 13 months | CWB Chicago

Chicago police on Tuesday arrested Clarence Hebron, a convicted murderer who has been wanted in connection with a double-slaying in suburban Riverdale in November. Hebron was out of jail on “affordable bail” for reckless homicide and two separate counts of armed habitual criminal when police said he killed his 26-year-old girlfriend, Jessica Beal, and her 27-year-old brother, Damien, on November 27.

---

His extensive criminal background includes a 2007 conviction for second-degree murder in which he and his cousin fatally shot a man, D’Antignac said Wednesday.
----
At the time of the Beals’ murders, Hebron was awaiting trial for allegedly killing a woman with his car as he fled from police in April 2019. At the time of that incident, he was already on bail for two separate counts of Class X armed habitual criminal, according to court records.

Cops arrest man wanted for double-murder while on "affordable bail" for reckless homicide and 2 gun cases | CWB Chicago



Chicago..

A Chicago man shot and killed a 16-year-old rival gang member over a haircut last week while on affordable bail for discharging a handgun, prosecutors said.

Jesus Moro, 21, is the eighth person charged with killing or shooting someone in Chicago this year while on bail for other serious felonies.

Prosecutors said 16-year-old Julian Castillo, a member of the Two Six street gang, was visiting a man on the first floor of a home in Chicago Lawn last Friday evening while Moro, a Latin King gang member, was on the second floor.

When the man went upstairs to get a glass of water, Moro’s fellow Latin King member, 20-year-old Sergio Rodriguez, began to ask him about his haircut and said the cut was a Two Six style, Assistant State’s Attorney Angel Eggleston said.
-----
On July 3, police arrested Moro after CPD surveillance cameras recorded him firing a handgun outside John Spry Elementary School in Little Village, according to court records. In his arrest report, cops called Moro “a highly active Latin King gang member.”

Judge David Navarro ordered Moro held in lieu of $100,000 the next day, but Judge LeRoy Martin Jr cut that in half a few days later, and Moro went home by posting a $5,000 deposit bond, records show.
------

Moro went to prison for a year following a nearly identical incident in October 2017. In that case, police surveillance cameras recorded footage of Moro firing a gun at a passing car just a block away from Spry Elementary, according to CPD records. Police allegedly recovered a gun from Moro’s bedroom after that incident and he admitted to “testing the gun.”

On Monday, Moro found himself in front of Judge Navarro again on the new murder charges. Navarro ordered him held without bail for Castillo’s slaying and held without bail for violating terms of bail in his pending reckless discharge case.

Rodriguez, who received an 18-month prison sentence for reckless discharge of a firearm in 2019, was also ordered held without bail.

#8: “Highly active” gang member charged with killing rival over haircut — while on affordable bail | CWB Chicago



> Dori: Durkan's failures, political correctness caused downtown Seattle shooting
> 
> People right away criticized me for blaming gangs when we did not know for sure who was responsible. Of course we knew it was gangs. I’m sick and tired of a squishy media that won’t speak the truth because it is so consumed with political correctness. Everybody knew exactly what happened last night.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 7, 2021)

KissMy said:


> How is it hypocritical of me a gun owner to say more guns in peoples hands = more shooting?
> 
> I wore out the old Crosman BB/pellet gun the 2nd year shooting Mice, Rats, Sparrows & Starlings that were eating the crop, destroying the farm equipment & buildings. I now have a .30 M1 carbine, 12GA Remington 870 Express Super Magnum, .22 Marlin Rifle tube feed w/scope, 9mm Beretta Nano to replace my stolen EAA Witness-P .45 ACP w/Laser & .177 Gamo Wildcat Whisper w/scope. Also 1,150 Rounds of Ammo!



*How is it hypocritical of me a gun owner to say more guns in peoples hands = more shooting?

It's not hypocritical, it's stupid....27 years of actual gun ownership in the U.S. shows it is stupid..........as more Americans own and carry guns, the gun murder and gun crime rate went down....not up.....

How do you explain that?*

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

1) the democrat party keeps releasing violent gun offenders...they have created a revolving door for criminals who use guns, and will release even the most serious gun offenders over and over again....why?   Probably because they realise that normal people don't use their guns for crime, so if they want to push gun control, they need criminals to shoot people.....so they keep releasing them....

2)  The democrat party keeps attacking the police.....driving the officers into not doing pro-active policing, cutting detective forces so that murders go unsolved..........


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 7, 2021)

McFury said:


> What's wrong with being liberal?


Nothing.
But -you- are a liberal bigot.
Being a bigot, you see nothing wrong with that.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 7, 2021)

KissMy said:


> How is it hypocritical of me a gun owner to say more guns in peoples hands = more shooting?
> 
> I wore out the old Crosman BB/pellet gun the 2nd year shooting Mice, Rats, Sparrows & Starlings that were eating the crop, destroying the farm equipment & buildings. I now have a .30 M1 carbine, 12GA Remington 870 Express Super Magnum, .22 Marlin Rifle tube feed w/scope, 9mm Beretta Nano to replace my stolen EAA Witness-P .45 ACP w/Laser & .177 Gamo Wildcat Whisper w/scope. Also 1,150 Rounds of Ammo!




Here.....listen to the truth....democrat party policies causing the crime in the U.S...









						On the Michigan Talk Network: Liberal crime policies are causing crime spikes all over America
					

Dr. John Lott talked to Steve Gruber on the Michigan Talk Network about how liberal crime policies are causing crime spikes all over America. (Thursday, August 26, 2021, from 8:33 to 8:42 AM)




					crimeresearch.org


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 7, 2021)

KissMy said:


> How is it hypocritical of me a gun owner to say more guns in peoples hands = more shooting?
> 
> I wore out the old Crosman BB/pellet gun the 2nd year shooting Mice, Rats, Sparrows & Starlings that were eating the crop, destroying the farm equipment & buildings. I now have a .30 M1 carbine, 12GA Remington 870 Express Super Magnum, .22 Marlin Rifle tube feed w/scope, 9mm Beretta Nano to replace my stolen EAA Witness-P .45 ACP w/Laser & .177 Gamo Wildcat Whisper w/scope. Also 1,150 Rounds of Ammo!



   How did you manage to get a gun stolon?
Leave it in your car unsecured? 
Because you're a gun owner. It's hypocritical to say you can own guns but others cant.
So what makes you so special?


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## McFury (Sep 7, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Nothing.
> But -you- are a liberal bigot.
> Being a bigot, you see nothing wrong with that.


I'm not a bigot .
I see things you don't see.
The truth.
The truth, the real truth has to be told.
Otherwise we change history.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 7, 2021)

McFury said:


> I'm not a bigot .


^^^
This is a lie.
You are obstinately and intolerantly devoted to your opinions and prejudices.
Thus, bigot.


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## DudleySmith (Sep 8, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> And they talk about Florida LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In real life, people who felt the need to carry have been doing so all along, legal or not. and, since it became law it turns out it's still hoodrats and barrio bums doing most of the murders, so nothing has changed.


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