# 'For Every Southern Boy'



## onedomino (Jul 3, 2008)

One hundred forty-five years ago today there was a seminal moment in American history. It was a moment upon which everything turned. It was Lee&#8217;s desperate gamble. It was the last day of the Battle of Gettysburg:

_"For every southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances . . . that moment doesn't need even a fourteen year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose and all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the gold dome of Washington itself . . ."_ - William Faulkner, _Intruder in the Dust_

_http://www.metafilter.com/72962/Today-in-History-The-Battle-of-Gettysburg_


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## editec (Jul 3, 2008)

How tragic for America, that time.

Out of respect for the sincerity of those brave boys on _both sides_, I won't vent about what an affront to god almighty I think slavery is and was, in this thread.


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## Gunny (Jul 4, 2008)

onedomino said:


> One hundred forty-five years ago today there was a seminal moment in American history. It was a moment upon which everything turned. It was Lees desperate gamble. It was the last day of the Battle of Gettysburg:
> 
> _"For every southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances . . . that moment doesn't need even a fourteen year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose and all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the gold dome of Washington itself . . ."_ - William Faulkner, _Intruder in the Dust_
> 
> _Today in History: The Battle of Gettysburg | MetaFilter_



Gettysburg was lost when AP Hill chose to go into bivouac instead of taking Little Round Top before Union reinforcements arrived and JEB Stuart decided to go galavanting around the countryside and ride around the Union army instead of doing his job.  

Lee was a commander by suggestion.  Had Stonewall Jackson survived and been in command of his brigade, the one AP Hill inherited prior to Gettysburg, the suggestion to "move forward in force, if practicable" would have been a command to charge.  Buford's cavalry could not have withstood a brigade.  Instead, AP Hill decided :if practicable" meant his men were tired.

Lee should have abandoned the field the next morning.  Instead, he found himself in the position he usually put Union forces in, he achieved the same results they generally did.  

Had he just moved his forces between Meade and DC and chosen high ground to defend, he would have forced Meade into the open and to attack his position.

Pickett's charge was a waste of human life and a tactically stupid move uncharacteristic of Lee.


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## onedomino (Jul 5, 2008)

GunnyL said:


> Gettysburg was lost when AP Hill chose to go into bivouac instead of taking Little Round Top before Union reinforcements arrived and JEB Stuart decided to go galavanting around the countryside and ride around the Union army instead of doing his job.
> 
> Lee was a commander by suggestion.  Had Stonewall Jackson survived and been in command of his brigade, the one AP Hill inherited prior to Gettysburg, the suggestion to "move forward in force, if practicable" would have been a command to charge.  Buford's cavalry could not have withstood a brigade.  Instead, AP Hill decided :if practicable" meant his men were tired.
> 
> ...


Was not Lees order to "secure possession of the heights...if practicable" given to Ewell, not AP Hill? I agree that the subsequent hesitation cost the Confederates their advantage and Lee needed to reposition the army as Longstreet recommended and you outlined above. Longstreet was the only Southern commander who actually understood what was happening on the field and correctly predicted the outcome. But Lee was not in Pennsylvania to fight a defensive battle. He was there to take the risks that might lead to a decisive victory and end the War. Lee thought the Northern line was weaker in the center than the flanks. He overestimated the potential effect of the pre-assault artillery bombardment. He took a huge gamble and lost.


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## Gungnir (Jul 5, 2008)

Bah, what a waste.


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## editec (Jul 5, 2008)

My great Grandmother Blitz was a resident of Gettyburg during that battle. 

All she remembered about it was that a cannon was overturned when someone took a turn too sharply in front of her house.

She also heard the Gettyburg address but didn't recall anything about it.

She died in about '63 or 64.

She had 13 children and outlived all but a handful of them.


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## Gunny (Jul 5, 2008)

onedomino said:


> Was not Lees order to "secure possession of the heights...if practicable" given to Ewell, not AP Hill? I agree that the subsequent hesitation cost the Confederates their advantage and Lee needed to reposition the army as Longstreet recommended and you outlined above. Longstreet was the only Southern commander who actually understood what was happening on the field and correctly predicted the outcome. But Lee was not in Pennsylvania to fight a defensive battle. He was there to take the risks that might lead to a decisive victory and end the War. Lee thought the Northern line was weaker in the center than the flanks. He overestimated the potential effect of the pre-assault artillery bombardment. He took a huge gamble and lost.



I stand corrected.  It was Ewell and not Hill that assumed command of Jackson's Corps.

While Lee in fact did take the war north to lure the Union army into a fight, his primary objective was to take the war out of Virginia to give the people of Virginia a break.

Even so, if you ever walked the battlefield at Gettysburg, Lee must have chosen those 3 days to take up smoking weed.  There is NO way I would have charged across that open field, at a slight incline, against a fortified line on that ridge.  I definitely understand why Longestreet questioned Lee's decision.  

That Pickett's troops actually reached the Union line is a miracle in and of itself.  Not only were they attacking a forified line, but they attacked into a salient which put them in a crossfire.  They never had a chance.

The Confederates could also have rolled up the Union right has their attack not been so half-assed.  Revisionist history makes a hero out of Chamberlain, and while his bravery in the battle is unquestionable, a concerted and concentrated attack on his position would have swept through his lines.  

Heh ... hindsight's 20/20.  It looks a lot different from a aerial map than actually standing on the ground.  And I am NOT one to appreciate Civil War battlefields beyond taking note of the strategy and tactics that were employed.  They all just look like cow pastures.

The Union could have destroyed the Army of No Virginia at Antietam but Meade preferred to rest on his laurels that he actually had forced Lee from the field.

Had AS Johnson not deemed himself bulletproof and been killed at Shiloh, Grant's Army would have ended up in the Tennessee River.

Our Nation's history has been defined by many seemingly inconsequential decisions.


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## onedomino (Jul 5, 2008)

GunnyL said:
			
		

> Had AS Johnson not deemed himself bulletproof and been killed at Shiloh, Grant's Army would have ended up in the Tennessee River.


Not much doubt of that. But as it turned out, the Hornet's Nest, where peach blossoms fell on the living and the dead, held long enough. That day, the Southern soldiers found out that there were also brave, determined men in the Northern Army. Had Albert Sydney Johnson not been killed at Shiloh, the course of the War might have been different. Would the South have forced the North to recognize the Confederacy? Probably not. But Albert Sydney Johnson was perhaps the most capable commander on either side, and his absence greatly damaged the Confederacy. The South had truly brilliant people leading it military effort. If the North had leaders like Johnson, Lee, Longstreet, Forrest, and Jackson, the War might have been over in a few months, not almost four years as turned out to be the case.


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## BrianH (Jul 5, 2008)

editec said:


> My great Grandmother Blitz was a resident of Gettyburg during that battle.
> 
> All she remembered about it was that a cannon was overturned when someone took a turn too sharply in front of her house.
> 
> ...



My third Great Grandfather was stabbed by a bayonet at Gettysburg.  He was with General Hood and part of the Hood's Brigade.  He had a collapsed lung because of it, but survived.  He had bad luck throughout the war.  He was captured, escaped, captured again, escaped, captured again, and I think escaped successfully.  Then he got stabbed at Gettysburg at a place called Devil's Den.    I had two other direct relatives that fought also.  One never returned; no one knows what happened to him.  And the other survived.


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## editec (Jul 6, 2008)

BrianH said:


> My third Great Grandfather was stabbed by a bayonet at Gettysburg. He was with General Hood and part of the Hood's Brigade. He had a collapsed lung because of it, but survived. He had bad luck throughout the war. He was captured, escaped, captured again, escaped, captured again, and I think escaped successfully. Then he got stabbed at Gettysburg at a place called Devil's Den. I had two other direct relatives that fought also. One never returned; no one knows what happened to him. And the other survived.


 
Fascinating.

Did you ever get to speak to him?

Grandma Blitz had some wonderful stories to tell me.

Sadly, she thought my name was Rudoph, (she thought I was her youngest son) but it didn't much matter.

She was history come alive and for that 7 or 8 year old boy that I was when I used to listen to he tell me about her life, she was like a time machine.


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## BrianH (Jul 6, 2008)

editec said:


> Fascinating.
> 
> Did you ever get to speak to him?
> 
> ...



Oh no, he was gone way before my time.  Those old timers are really cool to listen to though.  I had a great great uncle that was giving us directions on how to get to a cemetery in the middle of the Piney Woods in East Texas and he kept dead-ending us at Sam Rayburn Lake.  Only then did we realize that he took all those routes before the lake was even built.  It was pretty funny.  He was blind, so he was telling us just from what he remembered.  I love family history, I guess because mine has so much...having to do with the U.S.  On the other side I've got a third great-grandfather that fought in the war of 1812, and his father fought in the revolution.


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## Gungnir (Jul 6, 2008)

The Family Sire fought in the French and Indian War and then became a Rebel and fought in the American Revolution. I know there were people in my family that fought in the War Between the States but I am not sure if it was one of my direct line.

After that I think we missed out on all the other wars.


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## Gunny (Jul 6, 2008)

onedomino said:


> Not much doubt of that. But as it turned out, the Hornet's Nest, where peach blossoms fell on the living and the dead, held long enough. That day, the Southern soldiers found out that there were also brave, determined men in the Northern Army. Had Albert Sydney Johnson not been killed at Shiloh, the course of the War might have been different. Would the South have forced the North to recognize the Confederacy? Probably not. But Albert Sydney Johnson was perhaps the most capable commander on either side, and his absence greatly damaged the Confederacy. The South had truly brilliant people leading it military effort. If the North had leaders like Johnson, Lee, Longstreet, Forrest, and Jackson, the War might have been over in a few months, not almost four years as turned out to be the case.



Just running off memory here but IIRC, when Johnson was killed, the attack lost its momentum and the Confederate troops were exhausted by the time they swept through the Union camp.  With no direction they ceased pursuing the Union troops and allowed Sherman to reorganize lines with his back to the landing.  Instead of reorganizing, the Confederates just stopped where they were making them easy prey to be swept from the field by a counterattack.  I also seem to recall Beauregard was so far to the rear he had no idea what was going on with his own army and made no real effort to reorganize them.

I don't think individual bravery of Civil War soldiers was ever really in doubt on either side.  These were men fighting with modern weapons (rifled barrels) still using Napoleonic line tactics.  The result was they basically slaughtered each other.


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## BrianH (Jul 6, 2008)

Gungnir said:


> The Family Sire fought in the French and Indian War and then became a Rebel and fought in the American Revolution. I know there were people in my family that fought in the War Between the States but I am not sure if it was one of my direct line.
> 
> After that I think we missed out on all the other wars.



Yeah my family is the same way.  I had relatives that fought in the other wars, but no one really directly related.  My grandpa was in Panama during the 2nd world war and told us a couple of stories.  He said one night they were watching the canal and saw an unidentified vessel coming through, they thought it was the top of a submarine and started shooting and bombing the hell out of it.  He said they, and others fired on it for about 15 minutes straight and then they lost site of it.  He said the next morning they went out to search for ite and found a 10ft wooded boat on the bank with not one hole in it.  It wasn't damaged at all.  It turns out it had washed off the bank of someones home...lol.


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## Gungnir (Jul 8, 2008)

The BrainH Family, defending American interest from floatsome and jetsome since World War 2!

I kid because I care.


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## BrianH (Jul 8, 2008)

Gungnir said:


> The BrainH Family, defending American interest from floatsome and jetsome since World War 2!
> 
> I kid because I care.



LOL.....Well, it's a true story, but he told us the story to kid around as well...


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## Wow (Jul 12, 2008)

editec said:


> How tragic for America, that time.
> 
> Out of respect for the sincerity of those brave boys on _both sides_, I won't vent about what an affront to god almighty I think slavery is and was, in this thread.


I'll assume you are referring to slavery in the North and South?


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## Gunny (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow said:


> I'll assume you are referring to slavery in the North and South?



I'd say that since the discussion is about the US Civil War, that would be a safe assumption.


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## Wow (Jul 12, 2008)

GunnyL said:


> I'd say that since the discussion is about the US Civil War, that would be a safe assumption.


I wonder if editec is aware of the fact that there was slavery in the North?


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## William Joyce (Jul 14, 2008)

editec said:


> My great Grandmother Blitz was a resident of Gettyburg during that battle.
> 
> All she remembered about it was that a cannon was overturned when someone took a turn too sharply in front of her house.
> 
> ...



I only recently discovered that an ancestor was a Confederate general named Bushrod Johnson.  His position was odd because he came from a long line of Quakers in Ohio and Indiana.


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