# 308 auto is far better vs bears or moose than 45-70



## prison/con.net

there is no such thing as a 'brush-bucking" bullet. Even 12 ga slugs (not rotating like a rifle bullet) are EASILY deflected by brush. If the brush is contacted close to the gun (due to looking over the sights and not noticing the twig) the effect is normally far worse than if the brush/bullet impact occurs close to the target. The reason for this is two fold. One, the bullet is not yet fully stabilized (by gyro spin for the rifle bullet, or the nose-heaviness of the 12 ga slug) and because the greater distance traveled after contact with brush allows for the bullet/slug to be further diverted off its intended flight path.

The 308  autoloader is much easier to get (swift, up close)  repeat hits with, vs the 45-70 lever action. The 308 has less recoil in the first place, the gas-op auto action "soaks up" some of the felt recoil, and the lever action takes a lot longer to cycle and a lot more practice to get fast hits. The 45-70 ammo is COMICALLY overpriced. Just the reloading components for  45-70 cost as much as 308 milsurp practice ammo.  

The 45-70 is near worthless at ranges beyond 150 yds, cause it drifts in the wind like a balloon and drops like a stone, due to its large flat pointed bullet "bucking" a lot of wind resistance., as well a low initial velocity. google up a ballistics chart, and compare the 45-70 to the 308, sheesh 

 The 308 auto is many times the better choice for deer, elk, or men, because of the 308's  rapidfire advantage, the greater ease at hitting at longer ranges, and the much greater likelihood of having PRACTICED with it (enough)  45-70 fans tend to be just talk, little or no action.

For stopping charges by large animals, chest hits cannot be relied upon. It ALWAYS takes 4 or more seconds for loss of organ function or blood loss to shut down a mammal. SOMETIMES, shock can do the job, especially  on men, but this is rare  with large, adrenalized, 4 legged animals.  It is commonplace for a 100 lb deer to run a ways after being solidly chest-hit with a 12 ga slug, which has twice the frontal area of a 45-70 bullet, and the same momentum. So why would you expect a 500 lb PREDATOR bear or 1000 lb moose to be stopped by a chest hit with a 45-70,  hmm?  ONLY BRAIN hits (or fluke spine hits) can be relied upon to stop charges, and the 308 auto has several times a greater probability of getting the brain hit, because of its ease of rapidfire hitting and lower cost practice.

Put a deep penetrating, expanding(but holding together) bulllet in the 308, like the 180 gr Nosler Partition, and the 308 auto does fine vs large critters.  If you want to reach further than the 180 allows, just use the 165 gr Nosler. 

Partition Bullet Nosler


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## 9thIDdoc

If bears are a possibility I would much prefer the .45-70.


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## WinterBorn

9thIDdoc said:


> If bears are a possibility I would much prefer the .45-70.



I'm with you.  I have used a 45-70 on wild hogs for years.  I have never thought of any round as a "brush buster", but I do consider my 45-70 to be a very good "thumper" rifle.

But at least prison/con has finally figured out that the .308 is an excellent round.  I'm surprised he isn't touting an M4 with a silencer as good bear medicine.


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## turtledude

9thIDdoc said:


> If bears are a possibility I would much prefer the .45-70.


I'd go for the 375 H&H or at least a 338.


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## pwjohn

If lions, tigers and bears are a possibility, a five shot hammerless 38 is more than enough to keep you & yours off the menu.


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## 9thIDdoc

pwjohn said:


> If lions, tigers and bears are a possibility, a five shot hammerless 38 is more than enough to keep you & yours off the menu.



Are you serious?


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## pwjohn

Sure. Deadly serious. That gun is more than enough to keep you off the menu


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## WinterBorn

pwjohn said:


> Sure. Deadly serious. That gun is more than enough to keep you off the menu



If you are willing to face the attack of a lion, tiger or bear with a 5 shot, hammerless .38, you are nuts.


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## 9thIDdoc

An enraged hamster perhaps but...


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## Missourian

*US Forest Service 1983 study about big bear defense cartridges (PDF Format)*

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf


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## WinterBorn

The worst part of the suggestion is not that it is a .38, but that it is a hammerless revolver.   That means a heavy trigger pull, not conducive to the best accuracy.  If you plan to stop a big predator with a .38, you better be dead-on accurate.


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## jon_berzerk

prison/con.net said:


> there is no such thing as a 'brush-bucking" bullet. Even 12 ga slugs (not rotating like a rifle bullet) are EASILY deflected by brush. If the brush is contacted close to the gun (due to looking over the sights and not noticing the twig) the effect is normally far worse than if the brush/bullet impact occurs close to the target. The reason for this is two fold. One, the bullet is not yet fully stabilized (by gyro spin for the rifle bullet, or the nose-heaviness of the 12 ga slug) and because the greater distance traveled after contact with brush allows for the bullet/slug to be further diverted off its intended flight path.
> 
> The 308  autoloader is much easier to get (swift, up close)  repeat hits with, vs the 45-70 lever action. The 308 has less recoil in the first place, the gas-op auto action "soaks up" some of the felt recoil, and the lever action takes a lot longer to cycle and a lot more practice to get fast hits. The 45-70 ammo is COMICALLY overpriced. Just the reloading components for  45-70 cost as much as 308 milsurp practice ammo.
> 
> The 45-70 is near worthless at ranges beyond 150 yds, cause it drifts in the wind like a balloon and drops like a stone, due to its large flat pointed bullet "bucking" a lot of wind resistance., as well a low initial velocity. google up a ballistics chart, and compare the 45-70 to the 308, sheesh
> 
> The 308 auto is many times the better choice for deer, elk, or men, because of the 308's  rapidfire advantage, the greater ease at hitting at longer ranges, and the much greater likelihood of having PRACTICED with it (enough)  45-70 fans tend to be just talk, little or no action.
> 
> For stopping charges by large animals, chest hits cannot be relied upon. It ALWAYS takes 4 or more seconds for loss of organ function or blood loss to shut down a mammal. SOMETIMES, shock can do the job, especially  on men, but this is rare  with large, adrenalized, 4 legged animals.  It is commonplace for a 100 lb deer to run a ways after being solidly chest-hit with a 12 ga slug, which has twice the frontal area of a 45-70 bullet, and the same momentum. So why would you expect a 500 lb PREDATOR bear or 1000 lb moose to be stopped by a chest hit with a 45-70,  hmm?  ONLY BRAIN hits (or fluke spine hits) can be relied upon to stop charges, and the 308 auto has several times a greater probability of getting the brain hit, because of its ease of rapidfire hitting and lower cost practice.
> 
> Put a deep penetrating, expanding(but holding together) bulllet in the 308, like the 180 gr Nosler Partition, and the 308 auto does fine vs large critters.  If you want to reach further than the 180 allows, just use the 165 gr Nosler.
> 
> Partition Bullet Nosler




maybe i took one out with a bow several years ago


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## pwjohn

WinterBorn said:


> pwjohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure. Deadly serious. That gun is more than enough to keep you off the menu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are willing to face the attack of a lion, tiger or bear with a 5 shot, hammerless .38, you are nuts.
Click to expand...


Nonsense. A 38 is more than enough to send the average curious/ hungry bear packing.

An enraged/attacking bear can just as easily get past your cannons, so in the end you're no better off than me with my tiny little peashooter.


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## pwjohn

WinterBorn said:


> The worst part of the suggestion is not that it is a .38, but that it is a hammerless revolver.   That means a heavy trigger pull, not conducive to the best accuracy.  If you plan to stop a big predator with a .38, you better be dead-on accurate.



Well from your standpoint I can agree with your concern over a heavy trigger pull. But keep in mind, you're not out there hunting with that gun. You're simply relying on it for personal protection and nothing more.


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## shadow355

9thIDdoc said:


> If bears are a possibility I would much prefer the .45-70.


 

 + 10


 I had a 45-70 trap door one time......and I could launch 405 grain bullets at least 300 yards.

 And if I was in bear country, Mountain Lion Country, or any areas around or near the Pacific Northwest.....I wuld want a .44 mag revolver ( ?? Smith& Wesson model 69 )  with 240 grain bullets, and a 45-70 lever gun....with 405 grain bullets.

 I believe the original post to be misinforming and inaccurate.

     Shadow 355


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## WinterBorn

pwjohn said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pwjohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure. Deadly serious. That gun is more than enough to keep you off the menu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are willing to face the attack of a lion, tiger or bear with a 5 shot, hammerless .38, you are nuts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nonsense. A 38 is more than enough to send the average curious/ hungry bear packing.
> 
> An enraged/attacking bear can just as easily get past your cannons, so in the end you're no better off than me with my tiny little peashooter.
Click to expand...


A .38 is very likely to only wound the bear.  That creates a monster.  I would suggest something MUCH bigger.


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## WinterBorn

pwjohn said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The worst part of the suggestion is not that it is a .38, but that it is a hammerless revolver.   That means a heavy trigger pull, not conducive to the best accuracy.  If you plan to stop a big predator with a .38, you better be dead-on accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well from your standpoint I can agree with your concern over a heavy trigger pull. But keep in mind, you're not out there hunting with that gun. You're simply relying on it for personal protection and nothing more.
Click to expand...


Which makes the accuracy even more important.   If I am hunting and miss with the first shot, my prey runs off and I go home empty handed.   If I use the .38 for protection against an attacking bear, and miss, I become dinner for Ursus.


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## pwjohn

WinterBorn said:


> pwjohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The worst part of the suggestion is not that it is a .38, but that it is a hammerless revolver.   That means a heavy trigger pull, not conducive to the best accuracy.  If you plan to stop a big predator with a .38, you better be dead-on accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well from your standpoint I can agree with your concern over a heavy trigger pull. But keep in mind, you're not out there hunting with that gun. You're simply relying on it for personal protection and nothing more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which makes the accuracy even more important.   If I am hunting and miss with the first shot, my prey runs off and I go home empty handed.   If I use the .38 for protection against an attacking bear, and miss, I become dinner for Ursus.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but your senerio is deeply flawed and leaves me wondering about your knowledge, or possibly lack there of, when it comes to being out in the sticks.

Your mistaken belief that you're somehow  safe from a bear with an empty gun in your hand, after wasting the only round in a missed shot, yet you are certain to die from that same bear with a loaded 38 in your hand.

Maybe you need to rethink your senerios.


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## 9thIDdoc

Maybe you need to read a little more closely pw


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## HenryBHough

Only a fool goes after a moose with a shotgun, even with rifled slugs.

OTOH, an 18-1/8 inch 10 gauge loaded with sabot rounds is perfect for a Sunday walk in grizzly bear country.

Thing is, it's tough to get ammo for the 10 anymore, especially the sort with the copper split load that makes grizz pay attention.


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## WinterBorn

pwjohn said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pwjohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The worst part of the suggestion is not that it is a .38, but that it is a hammerless revolver.   That means a heavy trigger pull, not conducive to the best accuracy.  If you plan to stop a big predator with a .38, you better be dead-on accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well from your standpoint I can agree with your concern over a heavy trigger pull. But keep in mind, you're not out there hunting with that gun. You're simply relying on it for personal protection and nothing more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which makes the accuracy even more important.   If I am hunting and miss with the first shot, my prey runs off and I go home empty handed.   If I use the .38 for protection against an attacking bear, and miss, I become dinner for Ursus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but your senerio is deeply flawed and leaves me wondering about your knowledge, or possibly lack there of, when it comes to being out in the sticks.
> 
> Your mistaken belief that you're somehow  safe from a bear with an empty gun in your hand, after wasting the only round in a missed shot, yet you are certain to die from that same bear with a loaded 38 in your hand.
> 
> Maybe you need to rethink your senerios.
Click to expand...


Empty gun?   Why would I have an empty gun?   Yes, I may have fired a shot from my single shot rifle, but if I am in an area where there may be dangerous animals, I carry a Ruger Blackhawk .44 Magnum.  The 6.5" barrel is not unwieldy and it is both accurate and potent.


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## pwjohn

Well now you've changed your story. It "was," one gun, or the other.


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## WinterBorn

pwjohn said:


> Well now you've changed your story. It "was," one gun, or the other.



It WAS either a .308 or a 45-70.   I also never said anything about only one gun.  I simply remarked that a .38 was not the best choice for stopping a lion, tiger or bear, especially if the .38 was hammerless.

But, as a matter of fact, I carry my .44 much of the time I am in the woods.


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## WinterBorn

pwjohn said:


> Well now you've changed your story. It "was," one gun, or the other.



I looked again, and can't see where I said anything about one gun or the other.  The OP was about one or the other, but that was two rifles, and nothing at all was said about a hammerless .38.


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## pwjohn

Well I brought the 38 into it as a means to stay off the menu when just hiking and or camping in the woods.

Back Years ago when they changed the laws , we could no longer take firearms into  national parks while hiking & camping, so that's when I got the idea to buy a small 38 for just such an ocassion. A gun that was easily concealed and perfect for warding off animals that can easily make a meal out of you.


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## WinterBorn

pwjohn said:


> Well I brought the 38 into it as a means to stay off the menu when just hiking and or camping in the woods.
> 
> Back Years ago when they changed the laws , we could no longer take firearms into  national parks while hiking & camping, so that's when I got the idea to buy a small 38 for just such an ocassion. A gun that was easily concealed and perfect for warding off animals that can easily make a meal out of you.



It is probably better than nothing.  I've always wondered how one of those handheld air horns would effect a bear.  But I'd rather fire that off with my left hand, and hold the .44 with my right.  lol


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## 9thIDdoc

As a general rule I hate to shoot DA. I do, however, have a little Ruger LCR .38 spc.+P on my person pretty much all the time mostly because I forget I have it. It actually has an almost decent DA pull and I can often hit what I shoot at at ranges for which it is intended. I wouldn't want to shoot a bear or moose with it for fear of pissing them off.

I agree that the .44mag is the handgun for bear country although I recently acquired a Taurus .45LC/.410 that might deserve consideration as a survival weapon.


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