# Could a writer, such as Kafka, be regarded as a philosopher?



## Mindful

*What turns one into a philosopher?
*
Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?


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## Karl Rand

Mindful said:


> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?


A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academic tomes who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.

Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.


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## Mindful

Karl Rand said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academic tomes who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.
> 
> Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.
Click to expand...


Have you read him?

I'm reading Conversations with Kafka at present.

I've read one Ayn Rand. The Virtue of Selfishness. I knew what she meant.


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## zaangalewa

Karl Rand said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academic tomes who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.
> 
> Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.
Click to expand...


And you? An abstrahot of a borderline world without any chance to find out what's true? Why do you think the death of a person gives you any right for such a totally stupid comment?

*Erkenne Dich selbst*

_Erkenne Dich selbst bedeutet nicht:
Beobachte Dich.
Beobachte
Dich ist das Wort der Schlange.
Es bedeutet:
Mache Dich zum Herrn Deiner Handlungen.
Nun bist Du es aber schon,
bist Herr Deiner Handlungen.
Das Wort bedeutet also: Verkenne Dich!
Zerstöre Dich!
Also etwas Böses
und nur wenn man sich sehr tief hinabbeugt,
hört man auch sein Gutes, welches lautet:
"um Dich zu dem zu machen, der Du bist."
_
*Franz Kafka 

*


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## fncceo

Is there a common philosophical theme to Kafka's writings?

A minimum requirement to be a philosopher would seem to be having a philosophy.


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## Mindful

zaangalewa said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karl Rand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academic tomes who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.
> 
> Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you? An abstrahot of a borderline world without any chance to find out what's true? Why do you think the death of a person gives you any right for such a totally stupid comment?
> 
> *Erkenne Dich selbst*
> 
> _Erkenne Dich selbst bedeutet nicht:
> Beobachte Dich.
> Beobachte
> Dich ist das Wort der Schlange.
> Es bedeutet:
> Mache Dich zum Herrn Deiner Handlungen.
> Nun bist Du es aber schon,
> bist Herr Deiner Handlungen.
> Das Wort bedeutet also: Verkenne Dich!
> Zerstöre Dich!
> Also etwas Böses
> und nur wenn man sich sehr tief hinabbeugt,
> hört man auch sein Gutes, welches lautet:
> "um Dich zu dem zu machen, der Du bist."
> _
> *Franz Kafka
> 
> *
Click to expand...


Vielen dank.


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## Mindful

fncceo said:


> Is there a common philosophical theme to Kafka's writings?
> 
> A minimum requirement to be a philosopher would seem to be having a philosophy.



I'll let you know when I've finished reading him.


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## Karl Rand

fncceo said:


> Is there a common philosophical theme to Kafka's writings?
> 
> A minimum requirement to be a philosopher would seem to be having a philosophy.


Tell that to the French deconstructionists.


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## Karl Rand

zaangalewa said:


> Karl Rand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academic tomes who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.
> 
> Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you? An abstrahot of a borderline world without any chance to find out what's true? Why do you think the death of a person gives you any right for such a totally stupid comment?
> 
> *Erkenne Dich selbst*
> 
> _Erkenne Dich selbst bedeutet nicht:
> Beobachte Dich.
> Beobachte
> Dich ist das Wort der Schlange.
> Es bedeutet:
> Mache Dich zum Herrn Deiner Handlungen.
> Nun bist Du es aber schon,
> bist Herr Deiner Handlungen.
> Das Wort bedeutet also: Verkenne Dich!
> Zerstöre Dich!
> Also etwas Böses
> und nur wenn man sich sehr tief hinabbeugt,
> hört man auch sein Gutes, welches lautet:
> "um Dich zu dem zu machen, der Du bist."
> _
> *Franz Kafka
> 
> *
Click to expand...

Watch yourself watching? That could lead into a tedious discussion of what exactly is consciousness. I must however thank you for posting a decent chunk of Deutsche poetry I hadn’t previously encountered.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say with "_Why do you think the death of a person gives you any *right* for such a totally stupid comment?” _ Whose death and which comment?
If you’re getting your knickers in a knot over my _"A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test.” _you’ve got the wrong end of the stick. I’ve never considered myself a ‘western philosopher’ more like an ill educated autodidact.  Rand’s epistemology I have no argument with, it’s her political philosophy and economic theory I find muddle headed. I’m also curious about your concept of *right* above. I wasn’t aware one had to be granted a right to comment on anything in this place. Maybe you mean I haven’t sufficient understanding to know what I’m talking about. That might make sense and may be true.

Ich liebe den Hund und die Krähe, aber die Musik ist nicht mein Ding.
This is more my thing :-


The text can be read here :- http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/files/programme_notes/40213/140605.pdf


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## Karl Rand

Totally off topic but does anyone know why the hell philosophy is hidden under the *HOBBIES* section of the forum?


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## there4eyeM

There is certainly a philosophy in every story, though every storyteller is not necessarily a philosopher.
Definitions are not very strict in this domain. I think Camus is considered something of a philosopher in America, but not in France, where he is primarily regarded only as a novelist.


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## Natural Citizen

Mindful said:


> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?



Good Morning Mindful.How's it going? I'd generally contend that the ability to mediate perception is probably fundamental to being a leader. Anyone can speculate or theorize. This is the nature of philosophy. But philosophers aren't generally leaders. I've seen common Internet misfits create reality and change the course of history from a chat room. It's a deep discussion really, but it's not even 7 in the morning here yet. I'm still half asleep. Ha.

Here's a little three minute video kind of describing what I'm talking about.


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## Mindful

Natural Citizen said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Morning Mindful.How's it going? I'd generally contend that the ability to mediate perception is probably fundamental to being a leader. Anyone can speculate or theorize. This is the nature of philosophy. But philosophers aren't generally leaders. I've seen common Internet misfits create reality and change the course of history from a chat room. It's a deep discussion really, but it's not even 7 in the morning here yet. I'm still half asleep. Ha.
> 
> Here's a little three minute video kind of describing what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...


Yes, that makes sense.


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## zaangalewa

Karl Rand said:


> zaangalewa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karl Rand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academic tomes who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.
> 
> Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you? An abstrahot of a borderline world without any chance to find out what's true? Why do you think the death of a person gives you any right for such a totally stupid comment?
> 
> *Erkenne Dich selbst*
> 
> _Erkenne Dich selbst bedeutet nicht:
> Beobachte Dich.
> Beobachte
> Dich ist das Wort der Schlange.
> Es bedeutet:
> Mache Dich zum Herrn Deiner Handlungen.
> Nun bist Du es aber schon,
> bist Herr Deiner Handlungen.
> Das Wort bedeutet also: Verkenne Dich!
> Zerstöre Dich!
> Also etwas Böses
> und nur wenn man sich sehr tief hinabbeugt,
> hört man auch sein Gutes, welches lautet:
> "um Dich zu dem zu machen, der Du bist."
> _
> *Franz Kafka
> 
> *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Watch yourself watching?
Click to expand...


The problem of US-american psychologists: Their "empirism" is lousy. Every time when you watch a psychological function - for example the function to watch or the function to see - stays in the end an homunculus who is using the psychological function to watch or to see. So in the end we don't have any lousy idea where the psychological screen is, who we call "I".



> That could lead into a tedious discussion of what exactly is consciousness.



This is only one more of the totally senselees discussions in the english speaking world.



> I must however thank you for posting a decent chunk of Deutsche poetry I hadn’t previously encountered.
> 
> I have no idea what you’re trying to say with "_Why do you think the death of a person gives you any *right* for such a totally stupid comment?” _ Whose death and which comment?



no comment



> If you’re getting your knickers in a knot over my _"A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test.” _you’ve got the wrong end of the stick. I’ve never considered myself a ‘western philosopher’ more like an ill educated autodidact.  Rand’s epistemology I have no argument with, it’s her political philosophy and economic theory I find muddle headed. I’m also curious about your concept of *right* above. I wasn’t aware one had to be granted a right to comment on anything in this place. Maybe you mean I haven’t sufficient understanding to know what I’m talking about. That might make sense and may be true.
> 
> Ich liebe den Hund und die Krähe, aber die Musik ist nicht mein Ding.
> This is more my thing :-
> 
> 
> The text can be read here :- http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/files/programme_notes/40213/140605.pdf



The Crow (Krähe) is a "Dohle" - "Dohle" is the German word of the name "Kafka". Crows are wise.


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## Mindful

From Bertrand Russell. Though I'm no fan of his.


>> Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions... but rather for the sake of the questions themselves... because, through the greatness of the universe which philosophy contemplates, the mind is also rendered great, and becomes capable of that union with the universe which constitutes its highest good.<<


I got more out of Chekhov. And he was not a philosopher.


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## Moonglow

Mindful said:


> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?


Yes indeed to be a philosopher means you a dry and boring..


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## zaangalewa

Mindful said:


> From Bertrand Russell. Though I'm no fan of his.
> 
> 
> >> Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions... but rather for the sake of the questions themselves... because, through the greatness of the universe which philosophy contemplates, the mind is also rendered great, and becomes capable of that union with the universe which constitutes its highest good.<<
> 
> 
> I got more out of Chekhov. And he was not a philosopher.



Russel was not the man who gave his dead body to coyotes, so they were able to live in a better universe. And so I don't think he cared really about what he was able to do for the "union with the universe".


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## Mindful

Moonglow said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeed to be a philosopher means you a dry and boring..
Click to expand...


There's hope for you then?


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## zaangalewa

Karl Rand

Oh by the way: If two people communicate with each other, then they show their consciousness to each other - except they are sleepcommunicators.


In memoriam Socrates and his beloved wife Xanthippe.


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## Karl Rand

Mindful said:


> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?



A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academics who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.

Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.[/QUOTE]



> Have you read him?


Yes.



> I've read one Ayn Rand. The Virtue of Selfishness. I knew what she meant.



I’ve read all of her works many times and have a complete collection of The Objectivist Newsletter. It’s never difficult to know what Rand meant, she wrote with great clarity.
Such clarity academic philosophers turn their noses up at her and pretend she never existed. However, apart from her brilliant epistemology, I desagree with her economoc and political philosphy totally.


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## Mindful

Karl Rand said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A significant number of western philosophers consider Ayn Rand fails the test. However, when it comes to widespread influence (in the real world if I may use a contentious phrase) she’s been profoundly effective, even to those of us who find her writing muddle-headed to say the least. What’s interesting are the number of academics who pretend she doesn’t even exist, such as the The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.
> 
> Kafka? Hm, a borderline case.
Click to expand...




> Have you read him?


Yes.



> I've read one Ayn Rand. The Virtue of Selfishness. I knew what she meant.



I’ve read all of her works many times and have a complete collection of The Objectivist Newsletter. It’s never difficult to know what Rand meant, she wrote with great clarity.
Such clarity academic philosophers turn their noses up at her and pretend she never existed. However, apart from her brilliant epistemology, I desagree with her economoc and political philosphy totally.[/QUOTE]

Kafka was no philosopher, but he made a silent point in one of his stories. Glaringly obvious; to me.

That you cannot sit and gaze on the sunset while  philosophising, if you are poor and starving, and craving (in his case) potatoes.

When you are hungry, all you focus on is food, and of any kind! Your whole mind is filled with it.

I was watching The Vietnam War on PBS yesterday, and the testimony of former American  POW's describing  their being reduced to eating the camp commandment's cat, even the paws, knowing full well what the consequences would be. And there were!

But my point is, one must be economically viable to pontificate on.....whatever.


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## Unkotare

Mindful said:


> *What turns one into a philosopher?
> *
> Is there a formal designation "philosopher" and any baseline requirements?




We are issued membership cards. You don’t get one.


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