# Common Good versus Liberty



## Flanders

*Common Good and Liberty are philosophical opposites.  Liberty works in favor of Common Good, while  Common Good abolishes Liberty.

Examples of Common Good abound. Most notably, Common Good protects and defends every perversion, every violent act committed by the most depraved human beings. 

Common Good forces Liberty to work for strangers. The XVI Amendment provided the only tool Common Good needed to gain the advantage over Liberty. Let me make my case by paraphrasing an old adage: *

First we abhor; then we tolerate, then we embrace, then we elect, then we legislate.​
*Common Good abhors the very idea of a free people acting in their own best interests. 

Common Good forces Liberty to embrace every criminal degenerate. 

Common Good tolerated Liberty until it elected the kind of people who willing legislated behavior on behalf of  the Common Good. 

Socialized medicine forcing Liberty to labor for strangers is the most oppressive legislative application of Common Good. Regardless of who is writing the legislation you have only to brush aside the reasons given for socialized medicine’s necessity to understand the death struggle Common Good and Liberty are engaged in. The Common Good is winning. *

House GOP Weighing Another Try on Obamacare Vote Next Week
   by Billy House
   March 29, 2017, 3:12 PM EDT March 29, 2017, 3:59 PM EDT

House GOP Weighing Another Try on Obamacare Vote Next Week​
*The Common Good is winning because Obamacare  will never be repealed for one reason. Common Good will never surrender to Liberty. 

It serves no purpose to let Common Good write the rules. Most importantly, the battle between Common Good and Liberty should never be confused with organized religion’s eternal battle between Good and Evil. Liberty cannot win until the philosophical battle is fought on a political battlefield. 

NOTE: General Welfare is used by the Socialist priesthood to justify legislating Common Good:   *

Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance
   October 21, 2009
   By Matt COVER

Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance​
*Finally, America’s Founders legislated Liberty in their Constitution making every American free for a brief time: * 

If you have no authority to legislate my freedoms, then I'm truly free, at least from you.  _William A. Dembski_​
*Common Good legislates behavior and nobody is free.*


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## Onyx

Liberty and the common good never contradict each other.


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## Mousterian

Flanders said:


> Common Good protects and defends every perversion, every violent act committed by the most depraved human beings.



Say what?


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## Flanders

Onyx said:


> Liberty and the common good never contradict each other.


*To Onyx: Only in this sense:*



Flanders said:


> *Liberty works in favor of Common Good,* while Common Good abolishes Liberty.


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## Skull Pilot

Onyx said:


> Liberty and the common good never contradict each other.


of course they do

when some fucktard politician starts telling you what to do "for your own good" and then penalizes you if you don't then you are by definition less free


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## heil hitler

I agree. An aspect of liberty is freedom of association. Common good prohibits freedom of association.


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## SeaGal

Flanders said:


> *Common Good and Liberty are philosophical opposites.  Liberty works in favor of Common Good, while  Common Good abolishes Liberty.*



I'll play.  Some thoughts.

My liberty stops at your property line, front door or wallet.  Our common good allows us both to use the sidewalk out front.  But someone has to pay for it, hence taxes that do intrude upon our personal property.

Here's one problem, imo - we've allowed ourselves to become convinced that_ social_ justice is in the interest of the common good...and that it is the duty of the more 'fortunate' to foot the bill.  Social justice for one is always a social injustice to the one who must forfeit the fruits of their labor. 

Common good in the broadest sense means infrastructure, parks, safe food and water, defense, laws, _equal_ justice  -  the focus has become too narrow, and seeks out individuals to provide for, and individuals to do the providing....as well as legislating personal behavior and choices...in some cases money is the motivation, in others it's ideology.

I think there will always be this struggle - Liberty of the common man is not profitable to those desiring power.  Power is usurping the liberty of the common man under the guise of the Common Good.

a note re socialized medicine - we already have single payer, government run healthcare - it's called the VA - and it appears to have serious bureaucracy problems.


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## Flanders

*To SeaGal: You do not often respond to my threads. Whenever you do it is always well-said. I especially enjoyed this phrasing:* 


SeaGal said:


> we've allowed ourselves to become convinced that_ social_ justice is in the interest of the common good...and that it is the duty of the more 'fortunate' to foot the bill. Social justice for one is always a social injustice to the one who must forfeit the fruits of their labor.


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## SeaGal

Flanders said:


> *To SeaGal: You do not often respond to my threads. Whenever you do it is always well-said. I especially enjoyed this phrasing:*



Thank you, Flanders.  This is such a big board I often get lost.


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## Flanders

SeaGal said:


> a note re socialized medicine - we already have single payer, government run healthcare - it's called the VA - and it appears to have serious bureaucracy problems.


*To SeaGal: Allow me to elaborate on the horrors of single-payer:*

​
A few years back, I had an eye-opening conversation with a British woman in a hospital waiting room.  This woman flew to the U.S. from England at personal expense to get a mammogram.  Her mother and sister had breast cancer, and now she'd found a lump.  In Britain, a screening ultrasound didn't show cancer, so there was no justification for the more expensive mammogram.  They told her they'd follow up with another ultrasound in a few weeks.  

   This lady knew that with her family history, she needed a mammogram to confirm the diagnosis, but with government health care, there is no second opinion, no appealing your case, no working outside the system – just one authority: the government, aka single-payer.

   So this woman flew to America to seek the same medical options Americans have any day of the week, or at least had.  Some say we still have the best health care, but the fact is, our health care is circling the drain – doctors leaving, insurance companies pulling out, skyrocketing premiums, and impossible deductibles.  

   In short, Obamacare's imploding, but then, that was the goal, wasn't it?  To leave people without coverage, to make them desperate for a solution so they'd demand action from their government?  Then the government would ride to the rescue with single-payer,

May 5, 2017
           Make Our Health Care Great Again
           By Peggy Ryan

Articles: Make Our Health Care Great Again​


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## task0778

SeaGal said:


> Flanders said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Common Good and Liberty are philosophical opposites.  Liberty works in favor of Common Good, while  Common Good abolishes Liberty.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll play.  Some thoughts.
> 
> My liberty stops at your property line, front door or wallet.  Our common good allows us both to use the sidewalk out front.  But someone has to pay for it, hence taxes that do intrude upon our personal property.
> 
> Here's one problem, imo - we've allowed ourselves to become convinced that_ social_ justice is in the interest of the common good...and that it is the duty of the more 'fortunate' to foot the bill.  Social justice for one is always a social injustice to the one who must forfeit the fruits of their labor.
> 
> Common good in the broadest sense means infrastructure, parks, safe food and water, defense, laws, _equal_ justice  -  the focus has become too narrow, and seeks out individuals to provide for, and individuals to do the providing....as well as legislating personal behavior and choices...in some cases money is the motivation, in others it's ideology.
> 
> I think there will always be this struggle - Liberty of the common man is not profitable to those desiring power.  Power is usurping the liberty of the common man under the guise of the Common Good.
> 
> a note re socialized medicine - we already have single payer, government run healthcare - it's called the VA - and it appears to have serious bureaucracy problems.
Click to expand...


I think sometimes you have to take a broader look at what is the Common Good and the Liberty you gain in the long run from having that sidewalk, street, bridges, libraries, etc.   Yeah, you gave up some tax dollars (Liberty to spend it on something else) BUT maybe you gained Liberty in another sense by virtue of a better infrastructure that allows you to start or expand a business or just travel from one place to another faster and safer.

Disagree a little bit on the more fortunate having the duty to foot the bill for social justice.   Actually it is the duty of all of us to foot that bill one way or another, from income tax to property tax to sales tax, who among us doesn't pay something at some point?   And it costs nothing to vote, do we not all of us have a duty to vote for our reps are going to be?

It is I think true that Power many times translates into the usurping of our liberties and not always in the best interests of the Common Good.   It is therefore incumbent on all of us to be on guard against that;  human nature being what it is, we're not going to be able to be free of the corruption and misuse of Power but IMHO we have to be on guard against that and be as judicious as possible about what the tradeoffs are when trying to measure the Common Good gained vs the Liberties lost.   And not just today but also the future ramifications.


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## deskeptify

Flanders said:


> *Common Good and Liberty are philosophical opposites.  Liberty works in favor of Common Good, while  Common Good abolishes Liberty.
> 
> Examples of Common Good abound. Most notably, Common Good protects and defends every perversion, every violent act committed by the most depraved human beings.
> 
> Common Good forces Liberty to work for strangers. The XVI Amendment provided the only tool Common Good needed to gain the advantage over Liberty. Let me make my case by paraphrasing an old adage: *
> 
> First we abhor; then we tolerate, then we embrace, then we elect, then we legislate.​
> *Common Good abhors the very idea of a free people acting in their own best interests.
> 
> Common Good forces Liberty to embrace every criminal degenerate.
> 
> Common Good tolerated Liberty until it elected the kind of people who willing legislated behavior on behalf of  the Common Good.
> 
> Socialized medicine forcing Liberty to labor for strangers is the most oppressive legislative application of Common Good. Regardless of who is writing the legislation you have only to brush aside the reasons given for socialized medicine’s necessity to understand the death struggle Common Good and Liberty are engaged in. The Common Good is winning. *
> 
> House GOP Weighing Another Try on Obamacare Vote Next Week
> by Billy House
> March 29, 2017, 3:12 PM EDT March 29, 2017, 3:59 PM EDT
> 
> House GOP Weighing Another Try on Obamacare Vote Next Week​
> *The Common Good is winning because Obamacare  will never be repealed for one reason. Common Good will never surrender to Liberty.
> 
> It serves no purpose to let Common Good write the rules. Most importantly, the battle between Common Good and Liberty should never be confused with organized religion’s eternal battle between Good and Evil. Liberty cannot win until the philosophical battle is fought on a political battlefield.
> 
> NOTE: General Welfare is used by the Socialist priesthood to justify legislating Common Good:   *
> 
> Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance
> October 21, 2009
> By Matt COVER
> 
> Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance​
> *Finally, America’s Founders legislated Liberty in their Constitution making every American free for a brief time: *
> 
> If you have no authority to legislate my freedoms, then I'm truly free, at least from you.  _William A. Dembski_​
> *Common Good legislates behavior and nobody is free.*



  It all depends on what you consider to be good to begin with.


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## Bonzi

Seriously, who decides what the common good is. What a bunch of horse shit!


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## deskeptify

Bonzi said:


> Seriously, who decides what the common good is. What a bunch of horse shit!



  Unfortunately, in the U.S. what is "good" is decided by those who wish to destroy us.  And by corporations that are psychotic and sociopathic ehtities.


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## ding

Flanders said:


> *Common Good and Liberty are philosophical opposites.  Liberty works in favor of Common Good, while  Common Good abolishes Liberty.
> 
> Examples of Common Good abound. Most notably, Common Good protects and defends every perversion, every violent act committed by the most depraved human beings.
> 
> Common Good forces Liberty to work for strangers. The XVI Amendment provided the only tool Common Good needed to gain the advantage over Liberty. Let me make my case by paraphrasing an old adage: *
> 
> First we abhor; then we tolerate, then we embrace, then we elect, then we legislate.​
> *Common Good abhors the very idea of a free people acting in their own best interests.
> 
> Common Good forces Liberty to embrace every criminal degenerate.
> 
> Common Good tolerated Liberty until it elected the kind of people who willing legislated behavior on behalf of  the Common Good.
> 
> Socialized medicine forcing Liberty to labor for strangers is the most oppressive legislative application of Common Good. Regardless of who is writing the legislation you have only to brush aside the reasons given for socialized medicine’s necessity to understand the death struggle Common Good and Liberty are engaged in. The Common Good is winning. *
> 
> House GOP Weighing Another Try on Obamacare Vote Next Week
> by Billy House
> March 29, 2017, 3:12 PM EDT March 29, 2017, 3:59 PM EDT
> 
> House GOP Weighing Another Try on Obamacare Vote Next Week​
> *The Common Good is winning because Obamacare  will never be repealed for one reason. Common Good will never surrender to Liberty.
> 
> It serves no purpose to let Common Good write the rules. Most importantly, the battle between Common Good and Liberty should never be confused with organized religion’s eternal battle between Good and Evil. Liberty cannot win until the philosophical battle is fought on a political battlefield.
> 
> NOTE: General Welfare is used by the Socialist priesthood to justify legislating Common Good:   *
> 
> Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance
> October 21, 2009
> By Matt COVER
> 
> Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance​
> *Finally, America’s Founders legislated Liberty in their Constitution making every American free for a brief time: *
> 
> If you have no authority to legislate my freedoms, then I'm truly free, at least from you.  _William A. Dembski_​
> *Common Good legislates behavior and nobody is free.*


It depends on what you mean by common good.  Common good and virtue are not mutually exclusive and liberty and freedom cannot be maintained without virtue.  So common good is a two edged sword.  Like I said, it all depends on what you mean as common good.  As you described it, it would be bad, but a people who had no charity would be equally bad probably even worse.  The question comes down to execution.  Subsidiarity ennobles the spirit of men, socialism destroys the spirit of men.  So I don't disagree on the need to do good, I disagree on the how to do good.


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## Skull Pilot

The best way to promote the common good is to place individual liberty at the pinnacle of all governance


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## Penelope

Flanders said:


> SeaGal said:
> 
> 
> 
> a note re socialized medicine - we already have single payer, government run healthcare - it's called the VA - and it appears to have serious bureaucracy problems.
> 
> 
> 
> *To SeaGal: Allow me to elaborate on the horrors of single-payer:*
> 
> ​
> A few years back, I had an eye-opening conversation with a British woman in a hospital waiting room.  This woman flew to the U.S. from England at personal expense to get a mammogram.  Her mother and sister had breast cancer, and now she'd found a lump.  In Britain, a screening ultrasound didn't show cancer, so there was no justification for the more expensive mammogram.  They told her they'd follow up with another ultrasound in a few weeks.
> 
> This lady knew that with her family history, she needed a mammogram to confirm the diagnosis, but with government health care, there is no second opinion, no appealing your case, no working outside the system – just one authority: the government, aka single-payer.
> 
> So this woman flew to America to seek the same medical options Americans have any day of the week, or at least had.  Some say we still have the best health care, but the fact is, our health care is circling the drain – doctors leaving, insurance companies pulling out, skyrocketing premiums, and impossible deductibles.
> 
> In short, Obamacare's imploding, but then, that was the goal, wasn't it?  To leave people without coverage, to make them desperate for a solution so they'd demand action from their government?  Then the government would ride to the rescue with single-payer,
> 
> May 5, 2017
> Make Our Health Care Great Again
> By Peggy Ryan
> 
> Articles: Make Our Health Care Great Again​
Click to expand...

Is a mammogram covered by insurance?
Bottom line: The Affordable Care Act (ACA) requires insurers to pay for annual *mammograms* starting at age 40, with no deductibles or co-*insurance*. A small number of grandfathered health plans sold prior to 2010 are the sole exception. “But the vast majority of insurers *cover* it

She should of saved her money and paid for a mammogram, or had a good breast exam. Ultrasounds are much better than ultrasounds. why did she have ultrasound, because mammograms have been known to cause cancer due to squishing the boobs to death.

On a side note, if she had got dx with breast ca before the ACA , she may of been uninsurable.


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## Leo123

I would say that in a 'free' society, the common good is protected by laws not government programs, mandates, etc.  That being said, even laws can overreach and impact one's freedom.


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## task0778

Leo123 said:


> I would say that in a 'free' society, the common good is protected by laws not government programs, mandates, etc.  That being said, even laws can overreach and impact one's freedom.



Which is why we have a judicial branch of gov't that is supposed to identify such overreaches.   IMHO it is unfortunate that over the last century and then some overreach has too often been allowed over our freedoms.   I.E. eminent domain, which I think has allowed the trampling of our property rights in the name of the almighty dollar.


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## Leo123

task0778 said:


> Leo123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that in a 'free' society, the common good is protected by laws not government programs, mandates, etc.  That being said, even laws can overreach and impact one's freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why we have a judicial branch of gov't that is supposed to identify such overreaches.   IMHO it is unfortunate that over the last century and then some overreach has too often been allowed over our freedoms.   I.E. eminent domain, which I think has allowed the trampling of our property rights in the name of the almighty dollar.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, even our judicial branch has been over reaching of late.  Proof of that lies with such legal entities as the 9th circuit that seems to always hand down left leaning judgements.  Eminent domain requires paying fair market value to affected property owners whose improvements are incompatible with public development.


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## Votto

One of the best quotes of all time!

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

C.S. Lewis


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## Votto

I'm reminded by this thread of the Credit Crisis.

Was it good that the government mandated that poor people were allowed to purchase bigger mortgages?    Wasn't home ownership a "good" thing?

Everyone was happy.  Mortgage lenders had more and more business, those in Wall Street used these bad loans to repackage them to sell into securities so complex that not even Warren Buffett could figure them out, government was happy as they pointed to record number of home owners, and people were happier having their own homes.  You see, everyone was happy................until the bubble burst.

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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## Bonzi

Should depend on what the majority of a given society wants.


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## Votto

Bonzi said:


> Should depend on what the majority of a given society wants.



So if the majority of society targets Jews because they are socioeconomically affluent and forced out of countries and persecuted it is OK?  Damn those 1%'ers!

You realize that this led to the Holocaust, right?


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## Bonzi

Votto said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should depend on what the majority of a given society wants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if the majority of society targets Jews because they are socioeconomically affluent and forced out of countries and persecuted it is OK?  Damn those 1%'ers!
> 
> You realize that this led to the Holocaust, right?
Click to expand...

I'm not saying morally it's correct, but, unless you believe in one supreme being who makes the rules, the majority will


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## Skull Pilot

Bonzi said:


> Should depend on what the majority of a given society wants.


So if the majority wants to reinstate slavery that's OK with you?


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## Tehon

Votto said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should depend on what the majority of a given society wants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if the majority of society targets Jews because they are socioeconomically affluent and forced out of countries and persecuted it is OK?  Damn those 1%'ers!
> 
> You realize that this led to the Holocaust, right?
Click to expand...

Nazi Germany was not democratic. You realize you're a moron, right?


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## Bonzi

Skull Pilot said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should depend on what the majority of a given society wants.
> 
> 
> 
> So if the majority wants to reinstate slavery that's OK with you?
Click to expand...

With me personally, no. I would not willingly be part of a society like that


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## Bonzi

If you wanna know how MY ideal society would be that is different.


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## Bonzi

well, I guess no one is interested.  It might be a bit scary for some, I admit....


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