# "Israeli policies don't affect anti-Semitism"



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

EU parliament chief: Israeli policies have no impact on European anti-Semitism | JPost | Israel News

This is what the European Union Parliament Chief said at the Knesset.

This man is either as ignorant as a dead tree stump or is working his hardest to make Israelis happy.

Of course Isreali policies increase or decrease anti-Semitism.

Just as American policies increase or decrease hatred of the USA.

Its absurd to believe otherwise.  

When Israel does the right thing and treats the territories and the Palestinians fairly, Israelis and by extension Jews are judged by this.

When Israel expands settlements, steals more Arab land, kills more Palestinian children, strips more Palestinians of their Permanent Residency status in East Jerusalem, Israelis and by extension Jews are judged by this.

Its only common sense.


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## toastman (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> EU parliament chief: Israeli policies have no impact on European anti-Semitism | JPost | Israel News
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> This is what the European Union Parliament Chief said at the Knesset.
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So you think it's fair to display hatred towards Jews in Europe because of Israel's policies?


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

toastman said:


> So you think it's fair to display hatred towards Jews in Europe because of Israel's policies?



Fair?  No.

Logical?  No.

Reality of the world we live in?  Yes.

Israel needs to understand that their behavior reflects on all Israelis and by extension all Jews.


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## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
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Totally not.

Israel is a soveriegn nation, and Jews around the world are no more responsible for it's actions and policies than Muslims around the world are for policies in Muslim dominant countries or Christians around the world are for policies are in Christian dominant countries.

The author of the article makes a good point:



> *]Anti-Semitism has been a constant in Europe*, and that hasn't changed irrespective of what goes on in the Middle East, the president of the European Parliament, who is in Israel to deliver a speech to the Knesset later Wednesday, told The Jerusalem Post.
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> "*Anti-Semitism always existed in Europe*," said EU Parliament chief Martin Schulz. "I thought that after World War II we were stronger in fighting such demons in politics. This is a deception. Nothing disappeared, all the prejudice is there."



I think we saw that in the Norway anti-semitism thread where there was plenty of historic evidence to support this, unfortunately.

But there are two parts to this:

Do Israel's policies have an effect on anti-semitism?  Not really, other than to provide fuel and justification* for an already existing attitude* that is directed* towards jews in general.*

Is criticism of Israel's policies anti-semitism?  There is legitimate criticism of Israel's policies and anger at Israel that is directed at Israel specifically, and is fueled by some of it's policies and actions, not by anti-semitism.

The distinction can get blurred because there can be an overlap (Israel's actions provide a mask of "legitimacy" to existing anti-semitic attitudes) - but it's there and it's important to make that distinction.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Totally not.
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> Israel is a soveriegn nation, and Jews around the world are no more responsible for it's actions and policies than Muslims around the world are for policies in Muslim dominant countries or Christians around the world are for policies are in Christian dominant countries.
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It is easy to distinguish anti-Semitism from criticism of Israel.  Its all in the language used.

Anti-Semites who criticise Israel can't help themselves but to eventually start talking about the Talmud, denying the Holocaust, accusing Jews of running the USA, accusing Jews of blood libels, saying the Jews aren't "real" Jews, you know the drill.  I think you do.


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## toastman (Feb 12, 2014)

I think anti - semites in Europe are just using this as an excuse to hate on the Jews


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

The State of Israel is antithetical to Church Dogma.
Self-promoters who want to make money and/or become powerful use this as their platform.
I remember Louis Farrakhan going on a world tour.
After he made his money, he disappeared from sight.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> EU parliament chief: Israeli policies have no impact on European anti-Semitism | JPost | Israel News
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> This is what the European Union Parliament Chief said at the Knesset.
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What a rediculous bullshit.

Antisemites don't need reason to hate, and they surely aren't affected by Israel's policies.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 12, 2014)

Coyote said:


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> Do Israel's policies have an effect on anti-semitism?



I think it does. When Israel kills 1400 people in Gaza, or shoots up an aid ship killing nine people, then shouts from the rooftops that it is a Jewish state, that can send ripples through Jewish communities around the world.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
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> > So you think it's fair to display hatred towards Jews in Europe because of Israel's policies?
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That's true.

But Israel's policies don't affect Antisemites!

Those who hate Israelis and Jews won't start "loving" us even if we give up on all of our rights and drown ourselves in sea.

And those who simply don't agree with our policies for honest reasons, won't become antisemites because of those.

So no, Antisemitism has NOTHING to do with Israel's policies.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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The overwhelming majority of my co-workers are not Jews and they love it when Israel kills terrorists that hide behind children.


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## toastman (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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*Shoots up an aid ship * 

LOL Oh Tinmore, you never cease to amaze me ! I think what you meant to say is the navy seals boarded a ship that had the intention of breaking the blockade (they told the world their intention before leaving their dock), and fired at those who were beating and stabbing their fellow seals. 
Of course, propagandists like yourself use this incident to vilify Israel by completely distorting the truth.


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> EU parliament chief: Israeli policies have no impact on European anti-Semitism | JPost | Israel News
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> This is what the European Union Parliament Chief said at the Knesset.
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He's right.  Most anti semites were rabid anti semites to begin with.  There is probably nothing Israel can or cannot do to change their thinking.  Short of it's total destruction that is.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Lipush said:


> That's true.
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> But Israel's policies don't affect Antisemites!
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Do American actions affect how people around the world feel about Americans?

Of course.

Do events in France affect how people freel about the French?  You bet.

Are opinions about the British influenced by British foreign policies?  Surely.

That's why opinions about Jews are affected by the actions of The Jewish State.

Its all the same logic.  Understand?


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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When Gazans keep shooting rockets into Israel from the same rooftops, they should know that at some point those very same rooftops will be leveled.


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


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That because not only are Israel and the US close allies, but they also fight the same enemy.


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## montelatici (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


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Brainwashed Americans would feel that way.  Thankfully, the rest of the world thinks differently.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Some of us react to behavior by researching the context.
Some people react with their knees.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> That because not only are Israel and the US close allies, but they also fight the same enemy.



Palestine is not our enemy.


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## toastman (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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So when Palestinians launched hundreds of suicide bombings from 2000-2005, or when they hijacked planes or when they threw a wheelchair bound man into the ocean, does that give a reason to hate Muslims ?


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Faulty logic.  Middle Eastern states do not operate like that.  A Western country acting like they "care what they're thinking" is simply perceived as weakness and capitulation and will only embolden them to continue with even more aggression and violence.  That is one of the reason's Obama's foreign policy in the Middle East has been a failure and a total disaster.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Antisemitism is rooted in people for hundreds of years, and more.

So your comparison is incorrect.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
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Speak for yourself.


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

montelatici said:


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The rest of the world thinks it's okay to use your own women and kids as human shields when attacking?  Which world do you live in?


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
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Is that why they were dancing in the streets and eating sweets on 9-11?  

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRA0NKQ0k6E]***MUST SEE Muslims "Palestinians" Celebrating 9/11 (CNN - Fox) September 11 ARABS twin towers 911 - YouTube[/ame]


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
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To whom are you referring with the word "our"?


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


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He and his Muslim friends.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


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The American people.  We have no beef with Palestine.


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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You must be writing from Pakistan.  Palestine ranks at the bottom of the list when it comes to likability, and Israel is among the top.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Yet 6 out of the 30 official terror organization groups listed in the American government's files, are Palestinian....


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 12, 2014)

Lipush said:


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Interesting, how many of those attacked the US?


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Lipush said:


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OMG!  You're kidding me!  Wot a surprise!


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Yes, very interesting.  Suddenly Tinmore is incapable of using a search engine.  Look for yourself, here are some samples of the animals in action:

*American Victims*

A bus bombing in Jerusalem by the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) killed four, including American Joan Davenny of New Haven, CT, and wounded more than 100. U.S. citizens injured: Chanoch Bleier, Judith Shulewitz, Bernard Batta.

A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device outside the Dizengoff Center, Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall, killing 20 persons and injuring 75 others, including two U.S. citizens. Both Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing. U.S. citizens injured included Julie K. Negrin of Seattle, WA.

A member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad seized control of the steering wheel of a crowded bus enroute from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and drove the bus off a cliff in the area of Kiryat Ye'arim. 16 civilians were killed, including two Canadians and one American.

Two bombs detonated in Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda market, killing 15 persons, including a U.S. citizen and wounding 168 others, among them two U.S. citizens. The Izz-el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Mrs. Leah Stern of Passaic, NJ. U.S. citizens injured: Dov Dalin.

Bombing on Ben-Yehuda Street, Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Yael Botwin, 14, of Los Angeles and Jerusalem. U.S. citizens injured: Diana Campuzano of New York, Abraham Mendelson of Los Angeles, CA, Greg Salzman of New Jersey, Stuart E. Hersh of Kiryat Arba, Israel, Michael Alzer, Abraham Elias, David Keinan, Daniel Miller of Boca Raton, FL, Noam Rozenman of Jerusalem, Jenny (Yocheved) Rubin of Los Angeles, CA. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Yitzhak Weinstock, 19, whose family came from Los Angeles, CA, was killed in a drive-by shooting. Hamas took responsibility for the attack.

etc. etc. etc.


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

anti-semitism over the last five hundred years is a leading reason for the need of a jewish state that led to the creation of the modern Israel, and the continued need for it's security measures.
The greater the anti-semitism, the more hawkish Israel will be.

If arab forces had been successful in '48 or anytime after that, do you think anyone would be demanding the return of land to or the right of return for jews today?  Does anyone had illusions of how little progress the palestinians might have made compared to the Israelis?  Does anyone think the loss of life would have been less if the palestinians fell into a civil war than in their war against Israel?  Israel is a scapegoat for the inherent internal problems in the middle east.


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> anti-semitism over the last five hundred years is a leading reason for the need of a jewish state that led to the creation of the modern Israel, and the continued need for it's security measures.
> The greater the anti-semitism, the more hawkish Israel will be.
> 
> If arab forces had been successful in '48 or anytime after that, do you think anyone would be demanding the return of land to or the right of return for jews today?  Does anyone had illusions of how little progress the palestinians might have made compared to the Israelis?  Does anyone think the loss of life would have been less if the palestinians fell into a civil war than in their war against Israel?  Israel is a scapegoat for the inherent internal problems in the middle east.


Yeah, didn't you know that the Holocaust and all the genocides  and pogroms on Jews over the last 2000 years that occurred prior to the existence of the modern state of Israel, was actually because of "Israel's actions"?  Ha ha ha.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Interesting, how many of those attacked the US?



None.  Palestinians don't target the USA.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Yeah, didn't you know that the Holocaust and all the genocides  and pogroms on Jews over the last 2000 years that occurred prior to the existence of the modern state of Israel, was actually because of "Israel's actions"?  Ha ha ha.



The world expressed a great deal of good will towards the Jews by allowing them to settle Palestine and then allowing them to create a Jewish state in Palestine.

Israel's constantly racist and Apartheid-like actions have worn thin that good will.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 12, 2014)

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Just what I thought. *No attacks on the US.*


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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By killing American civilians in Israel, they also attack the US.

And if they are listed in the American files as "terrorist groups", it is for a good reason.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Christine Logan's family will disagree with you.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Lipush said:


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Who might this be?  

Was she injured or killed by a Palestinian attack upon an American target?


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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No of course not......
Palestinians plotted with Al Qaeda to attack U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv: Israel
site-iconnydailynews.com/news/world/palestinians-plotted-al-qaeda-attack-u-s-embassy-tel-aviv-israel-article-1.1587751
By Stephen Rex Brown / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Israeli authorities announced Wednesday they had foiled an Al Qaeda plot to launch a suicide attack on the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv.

Three Palestinians plotted with Al Qaeda to attack the U.S. Embassy in in Tel Aviv and storm other targets in Israel, authorities announced Wednesday.

The men  two from Jerusalem and one from the West Bank  were recruited by an operative based in the Gaza Strip who worked for Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri, Israels internal security agency Shin Bet said, describing the plans for mayhem as advanced.


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Palestinian terrorists: Attack U.S. targets
site-iconwnd.com/2006/11/38792/
Aaron Klein About | Email | Archive Aaron Klein is WND's senior staff reporter and Jerusalem bureau chief. He also hosts "Aaron Klein Investigative Radio" on New York's WABC Radio. Follow Aaron on Twitter and Facebook . Follow Subscribe to feed

JERUSALEM  Terror groups in the Gaza Strip, including militants from Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas Fatah party, warned today they may attack U.S. interests in the Middle East.

Hamas so-called military wing released a statement, the first of its kind, calling on Arabs and Muslims to attack American targets in the Middle East in response to an Israeli artillery strike today that killed at least 19 Palestinians.

The U.S. provides political and logistical cover for the crimes committed by the Zionist occupation, and it must be blamed for the Beit Hanoun massacres, the Hamas military wing said in a statement.

The statement urged Arabs and Muslims to teach the American enemy merciless lessons they will not forget.


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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American Victims of Palestinian Terror Seek Justice
site-iconcbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/February/American-Victims-of-Palestinian-Terror-Seek-Justice/

The latest version of Adobe Flash Player is required to watch this video. Please click on the link below to download the latest version. Thanks!

WASHINGTON -- Over the years, Palestinian terror groups have slaughtered countless Israeli civilians. In the process, they've also killed and injured dozens of American citizens.

Now there is a movement to have those Palestinians face justice here in the United States. But the hardest part may be getting the U.S. government to take action.

Seeking Justice

When Israeli solider Gilad Shalit was released, after years of captivity, by his Hamas kidnappers last fall, many Israelis cheered.

Yet Israel paid a heavy price in the deal: More than 1,000 hardened Palestinian terrorists were exchanged for Shalit, including some who were involved in the murder of Americans.

"We know of at least 15 terrorists who were released who were involved in attacks with American casualties," American terror victim Alan Bauer told CBN News.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Palestinians have never targeted Americans or American targets.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

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Only 6?
They're not trying hard enough.


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## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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However, Palestinians have attacked Americans while in the area.  There was Kristine Luken who died as a result of an attack on her and her Israeli friend while hiking in the hills.  There was Marla Bennett from San Diego who died in the cafeteria of Hebrew University because of a backpack loaded with explosives that was left and timed to go off.  There was Avigail Lichter, young daughter of an American Baptist minister who was the victim of a suicide bomber on an Israeli bus.  There were also other American victims of your Palestinian friends.  Additionally, let us not forget this.  Imagine, here Anericans were trying to do a good deed and look what happens.

Three killed in Gaza convoy blast | World news | theguardian.com


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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*have you bothered to read the story from another angle and seen that he caused uproar for his anti Jewish stance. Here it is in full.*
Martin Schulz under fire after Israeli-Palestinian comments in the Knesset | News | DW.DE | 12.02.2014

 European Parliament President Martin Schulz came under fire Wednesday after making remarks in the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, about the water usage of Palestinians and Israelis in the occupied West Bank.

In his speech, Schulz said that when he was in Ramallah earlier in the week, a young Palestinian had asked him why an Israeli can use 70 cubic liters of water daily and a Palestinian only 17? He then added, "I haven't checked the data. I'm asking you if this is correct."

The remarks caused the Knesset to break out in turmoil. Right-wing Jewish Home Party member Moti Yogev shouted at him, "Shame on you, you support someone who incites against Jews." Yogev and Naftali Bennett, Economy Minister and Jewish Home party leader, then left the hall.

 Bennett immediately took to his Facebook page: "I will not tolerate duplicitous propaganda against Israel in the Knesset  and especially not in German.

Likud Party member Moshe Feiglin, known for his extreme statements, was absent for the speech because, it is inappropriate that a speech is given in the parliament of the Jewish state, in the language used when our parents were thrust into the railway wagons and in the crematoria," he wrote on Facebook.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in his own address to the Knesset, accused Schulz of repeating claims without fact-checking. "Check first," he said.

Israeli media quoted Israel's national water authority as saying the figures quoted by Schulz were inaccurate with West Bank settlers consuming 1.7 times more water per person, instead of 4.2 times more.

In his speech, Schulz also said the Palestinians have the right to self-determination and equality," and that they want to "live in peace and have unlimited freedom of movement," which he said they are denied in Gaza.

Shortly before his Knesset speech, Schulz had complained of sensitivity in Israel against criticism from Europe. "Mutual criticism is quite normal in a democracy," he told Israeli journalists. "The EU stands by its special relationship with Israel, but that does not mean that it has to agree with every decision of the Israeli government," stressed Schulz.




 And I agree with what he says, and why he asked the question on water.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Palestinians have never targeted Americans or American targets.



You think it has anything to do with the 9/11 reaction?
They're also not very sophisticated or well funded; that's the other terrorist groups comprised of...Muslims!


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


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They never targeted Americans or American targets before 9-11.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

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You slipped up sunny boy as only you claim the Jews make blood libels. It is the muslims that make the blood libels, so called because the worst of a a very evil bunch was that Jews used the blood of gentile babies in satanic rituals and then made bread with it for Passover.

One of the latest is that Jews inject food destined for gaza with contraceptives and aphrodisiacs so that the men become impotent and the women raving nymphomaniacs. 
Then the manufacture of chewing gum that causes birth defects in only muslim women


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

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They were smart.
You are stating that targeting civilians for murder is vaiid.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

toastman said:


> I think anti - semites in Europe are just using this as an excuse to hate on the Jews







Have they ever needed an excuse, they are fixated on their hatred.


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Palestinians have never targeted Americans or American targets.



I was victim to a car bombing in Beirut at a check point on the cornish just yards from both the american school and the US embassy.  The car was trying to get to the embassy.

Tell that to ....

February 23, 1970

Halhoul, West Bank

Palestinian Liberation Organization terrorists open fire on a busload of pilgrims killing Barbara Ertle of Michigan and wounding two other Americans.
March 28-29, 1970

Beirut, Lebanon
	The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) fired seven rockets at the U.S. Embassy, the American Insurance Company, Bank of America and the John F. Kennedy library.
September 14, 1970

Amman, Jordan


The PFLP hijacked a TWA flight from Zurich, Switzerland and forced it to land in Amman. Four American citizens were injured.
May 30, 1972

Ben Gurion Airport, Israel

Three members of the Japanese Red Army, acting on the PFLP's bbehalf, carried out a machine-gun and grenade attack at Israel's main airport, killing 26 and wounding 78 people. Many of the casualties were American citizens, mostly from Puerto Rico.
September 5, 1972

Munich, Germany

,During the Olympic Games in Munich, Black September, a front for Fatah, took hostage 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team. Nine athletes were killed including weightlifter David Berger, an American-Israeli from Cleveland, Ohio.
March 2, 1973

Khartoum, Sudan
	Cleo A. Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador to Sudan, and George C. Moore, also a U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum. It seems likely that Fatah was responsible for the attack.
September 8, 1974

Athens, Greece
	TWA Flight 841, flying from Tel Aviv to New York, made a scheduled stop in Athens. Shortly after takeoff, it crashed into the Ionian Sea and all 88 passengers were killed, including 32-year-old Steven R. Lowe, husband Jeremiah Michel and wife, Kathrine Hadley Michel of Poughkeepsie, NY, Frederick and Margaret Hare of Bernardsville, NJ, Ralph H. Bosh of Madison, CT, Seldon and Etan Bard of Tuckahoe, NY, Dr. and Mrs. Frederick Stohlman of Newton, MA, Don H. Holiday of Mahwah, NJ, and Jon L. Chesire of Old Lyme, Ct; all of which were Almerican citizens. An investigation of the crash conclusively established that it was caused by explosives set in the rear cargo department of the plane.
June 29, 1975

Beirut, Lebanon


The PFLP kidnapped the U.S. military attaché to Lebanon, Ernest Morgan, and demanded food, clothing and building materials for indigent residents living near Beirut harbor. The American diplomat was released after an anonymous benefactor provided food to the neighborhood.
November 14, 1975

Jerusalem, Israel

Lola Nunberg, 53, of New York, was injured during a bombing attack in downtown Jerusalem. Fatah claimed responsibility for the bombing, which killed six people and wounded 38.
November 21, 1975

Ramat Hamagshimim, Israel

Michael Nadler, an American-Israeli from Miami Beach, Florida, was killed when axe-wielding terrorists from the Democrat Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a PLO faction, attacked students in the Golan Heights.
August 11, 1976

Istanbul, Turkey

The PFLP launched an attack on the terminal of Israel's major airline, El Al, at the Istanbul airport. Four civilians, including Harold Rosenthal of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, were killed and 20 injured.
January 1, 1977

Beirut, Lebanon
	Frances E. Meloy, U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, were kidnapped by PFLP members as they crossed a militia checkpoint separating the Christian from the Muslim parts of Beirut. They were later shot to death.
March 11, 1978

Tel Aviv, Israel

Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Abraham Ribicoff, was among 38 people shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach.
June 2, 1978

Jerusalem, Israel

Richard Fishman, a medical student from Maryland, was among six killed in a PLO bus bombing in Jerusalem. Chava Sprecher, another American citizen from Seattle, Washington, was injured.
May 4, 1979

Tiberias, Israel

Haim Mark and his wife, Haya, of New Haven, Connecticut were injured in a PLO bombing attack in northern Israel.
November 4, 1979

Tehran, Iran
	After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the U.S., Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.
May 2, 1980

Hebron, West Bank

Eli Haze'ev, an American-Israeli from Alexandria, Virginia, was killed in a PLO attack on Jewish worshippers walking home from a synagogue in Hebron.
July 19, 1982

Beirut, Lebanon


Hizballah members kidnapped David Dodge, acting president of the American University in Beirut. After a year in captivity, Dodge was released. Rifat Assad, head of Syrian Intelligence, helped in the negotiation with the terrorists.
August 19, 1982

Paris, France

Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris.
March 16, 1983

Beirut, Lebanon

Five American Marines were wounded in a hand grenade attack while on patrol north of Beirut International Airport. The Islamic Jihad and Al-Amal, a Shi'ite militia, claimed responsibility for the attack
April 18, 1983

Beirut, Lebanon
	A truck-bomb detonated by a remote control exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 employees, including the CIA's Middle East director, and wounding 120. Hizballah, with financial backing from Iran, was responsible for the attack.
July 1, 1983

Hebron, West Bank

Aharon Gross, 19, an American-Israeli from New York, was stabbed to death by PLO terrorists in the Hebron marketplace.
September 29, 1983

Beirut, Lebanon


Two American marines were kidnapped by Amal members. They were released after intervention by a Lebanese army officer.
October 23, 1983

Beirut, Lebanon
	A truck loaded with a bomb crashed into the lobby of the U.S. Marines headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 soldiers and wounding 81. The attack was carried out by Hizballah with the help of Syrian intelligence and financed by Iran.
December 19, 1983

Jerusalem, Israel

Serena Sussman, a 60-year-old tourist from Anderson, South Carolina, died from injuries from the PLO bombing of a bus in Jerusalem 13 days earlier.
January 18, 1984

Beirut, Lebanon
	Malcolm Kerr, a Lebanese born American who was president of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two gunmen outside his office. Hizballah said the assassination was part of the organization's plan to "drive all Americans out from Lebanon."
March 7, 1984

Beirut, Lebanon
	Hizballah members kidnapped Jeremy Levin, Beirut bureau chief of Cable News Network (CNN). Levin managed to escape and reach Syrian army barracks. He was later transferred to American hands.
March 8, 1984

Beirut, Lebanon


Three Hizballah members kidnapped Reverend Benjamin T. Weir, while he was walking with his wife in Beirut's Manara neighborhood. Weir was released after 16 months of captivity with Syrian and Iranian assistance.
March 16, 1984

Beirut, Lebanon
	Hizballah kidnapped William Buckley, a political officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Buckley was supposed to be exchanged for prisoners. However when the transaction failed to take place, he was reportedly transported to Iran. Although his body was never found, the U.S. administration declared the American diplomat dead.
April 12, 1984

Torrejon, Spain
	Hizballah bombed a restaurant near an U.S. Air Force base in Torrejon, Spain, wounding 83 people.
September 20, 1984

Beirut, Lebanon
	A suicide bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in East Beirut killed 23 people and injured 21. The American and British ambassadors were slightly injured in the attack, attributed to the Iranian backed Hizballah group.
September 20, 1984

Aukar, Lebanon
	Islamic Jihad detonate a van full of explosives 30 feet in front of the U.S. Embassy annex severely damaging the building, killing two U.S. servicemen and seven Lebanese employees, as well as 5 to 15 non-employees. Twenty Americans were injured, including U.S. Ambassador Reginald Bartholomew and visiting British Ambassador David Miers. An estimated 40 to 50 Lebanese were hurt. The attack came in response to the U.S. veto September 6 of a U.N. Security Council resolution.
December 4, 1984

Tehran, Iran
	Hizballah terrorists hijacked a Kuwait Airlines plane en route from Dubai, United Emirates, to Karachi, Pakistan. They demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of members of Da'Wa, a group of Shiite extremists serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets on Kuwaiti territory. The terrorists forced the pilot to fly to Tehran where the terrorists murdered two passengers--American Agency for International Development employees, Charles Hegna and William Stanford. Although an Iranian special unit ended the incident by storming the plane and arresting the terrorists, the Iranian government might also have been involved in the hijacking.
June 14, 1985

Between Athens and Rome
	Two Hizballah members hijacked a TWA flight en route to Rome from Athens and forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. The terrorists, believed to belong to Hizballah, asked for the release of members of the group Kuwait 17 and 700 Shi'ite prisoners held in Israeli and South Lebanese prisons. The eight crewmembers and 145 passengers were held for 17 days during which one of the hostages, Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft returned to Beirut and the hostages were released. Later on, four Hizballah members were secretly indicted. One of them, the Hizballah senior officer Imad Mughniyah, was indicted in absentia.
October 7, 1985

Between Alexandria, Egypt and Haifa, Israel

A four-member PFLP squad took over the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, as it was sailing from Alexandria, Egypt, to Israel. The squad murdered a disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, by throwing him in the ocean. The rest of the passengers were held hostage for two days and later released after the terrorists turned themselves in to Egyptian authorities in return for safe passage. But U.S. Navy fighters intercepted the Egyptian aircraft flying the terrorists to Tunis and forced it to land at the NATO airbase in Italy, where the terrorists were arrested. Two of the terrorists were tried in Italy and sentenced to prison. The Italian authorities however let the two others escape on diplomatic passports. Abu Abbas, who masterminded the hijacking, was later convicted to life imprisonment in absentia.
December 27, 1985

Rome, Italy

Four terrorists from Abu Nidal's organization attacked El Al offices at the Leonardo di Vinci Airport in Rome. Thirteen people, including five Americans, were killed and 74 wounded, among them two Americans. The terrorists had come from Damascus and were supported by the Syrian regime.
March 30, 1986

Athens, Greece
	A bomb exploded on a TWA flight from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed four U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, although the plane safely landed. The bombing was attributed to the Fatah Special Operations Group's intelligence and security apparatus, headed by Abdullah Abd al-Hamid Labib, alias Colonel Hawari.
April 5, 1986

West Berlin, Germany
	An explosion at the "La Belle" nightclub in Berlin, frequented by American soldiers, killed three--2 U.S. soldiers and a Turkish woman-and wounded 191 including 41 U.S. soldiers. Given evidence of Libyan involvement, the U.S. Air Force made a retaliatory attack against Libyan targets on April 17. Libya refused to hand over to Germany five suspects believed to be there. Others, however, were tried including Yassir Shraidi and Musbah Eter, arrested in Rome in August 1997 and extradited; and also Ali Chanaa, his wife, Verena Chanaa, and her sister, Andrea Haeusler. Shraidi, accused of masterminding the attack, was sentenced to 14 years in jail. The Libyan diplomat Musbah Eter and Ali Chanaa were both sentenced to 12 years in jail. Verena Chanaa was sentenced to 14 years in prison. Andrea Haeusler was acquitted.
September 5, 1986

Karachi, Pakistan
	Abu Nidal members hijacked a Pan Am flight leaving Karachi, Pakistan bound for Frankfurt, Germany and New York with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans. The terrorists forced the plane to land in Larnaca, Cyprus, where they demanded the release of two Palestinians and a Briton jailed for the murder of three Israelis there in 1985. The terrorists killed 22 of the passengers, including two American citizens and wounded many others. They were caught and indicted by a Washington grand jury in 1991.
September 9, 1986

Beirut, Lebanon
	Continuing its anti-American attacks, Hizballah kidnapped Frank Reed, director of the American University in Beirut, whom they accused of being "a CIA agent." He was released 44 months later. September 12, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah kidnapped Joseph Cicippio, the acting comptroller at the American University in Beirut. Cicippio was released five years later on December 1991.
October 15, 1986

Jerusalem, Israel

Gali Klein, an American citizen, was killed in a grenade attack by Fatah at the Western Wall in Jerusalem.
October 21, 1986

Beirut, Lebanon


Hizballah kidnapped Edward A. Tracy, an American citizen in Beirut. He was released five years later, on August 1991.
February 17, 1988

Ras-Al-Ein Tyre, Lebanon
	Col. William Higgins, the American chief of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization, was abducted by Hizballah while driving from Tyre to Nakura. The hostages demanded the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon and the release of all Palestinian and Lebanese held prisoners in Israel. The U.S. government refused to answer the request. Hizballah later claimed they killed Higgins.
December 21, 1988

Lockerbie, Scotland
	Pan Am Flight 103 departing from Frankfurt to New York was blown up in midair, killing all 259 passengers and another 11 people on the ground in Scotland. Two Libyan agents were found responsible for planting a sophisticated suitcase bomb onboard the plane. On 14 November 1991, arrest warrants were issued for Al-Amin Khalifa Fahima and Abdel Baset Ali Mohamed al-Megrahi. After Libya refused to extradite the suspects to stand trial, the United Nations leveled sanctions against the country in April 1992, including the freezing of Libyan assets abroad. In 1999, Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi agreed to hand over the two suspects, but only if their trial was held in a neutral country and presided over by a Scottish judge. With the help of Saudi Arabia's King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah, Al-Megrahi and Fahima were finally extradited and tried in Camp Zeist in the Netherlands. Megrahi was found guilty and jailed for life, while Fahima was acquitted due to a "lack of evidence" of his involvement. After the extradition, UN sanctions against Libya were automatically lifted.
January 27, 1989

Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey
	Three simultaneous bombings were carried out against U.S. business targets--the Turkish American Businessmen Association and the Economic Development Foundation in Istanbul, and the Metal Employees Union in Ankara. The Dev Sol (Revolutionary Left) was held responsible for the attacks.
March 6, 1989

Cairo, Egypt
	Two explosive devices were safely removed from the grounds of the American and British Cultural centers in Cairo. Three organizations were believed to be responsible for the attack: The January 15 organization, which had sent a letter bomb to the Israeli ambassador to London in January; the Egyptian Revolutionary Organization that from out 1984-1986 carried out attacks against U.S. and Israeli targets; and the Nasserite Organization, which had attacked British and American targets in 1988.
June 12, 1989

Bosphorus Straits, Turkey
	A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff. The explosion caused extensive damage but no casualties. An organization previously unknown, the Warriors of the June 16th Movement, claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 6, 1989

Between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, Israel

A member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad seized control of the steering wheel of a crowded bus enroute from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and drove the bus off a cliff in the area of Kiryat Ye'arim. 16 civilians were killed, including two Canadians and one American.
October 11, 1989

Izmir, Turkey


An explosive charge went off outside a U.S. military PX. Dev Sol was held responsible for the attack.
February 7, 1991

Incirlik Air Base, Turkey
	Dev Sol members shot and killed a U.S. civilian contractor as he was getting into his car at the Incirlik Air Base in Adana, Turkey.
February 28, 1991

Izmir, Turkey
	Two Dev Sol gunmen shot and wounded a U.S. Air Force officer as he entered his residence in Izmir.
October 28, 1991

Ankara, Turkey
	Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack. The Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
October 28, 1991

Istanbul, Turkey
	Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul. Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
November 8, 1991

Beirut, Lebanon
	A 100-kg car bomb destroyed the administration building of the American University in Beirut, killing one person and wounding at least a dozen.
January 25, 1993

Virginia, USA
	A Pakistani gunman opened fire on Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) employees standing outside of the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and three others wounded. The assailant was never caught and reportedly fled to Pakistan.
February 26, 1993

Cairo, Egypt
	A bomb exploded inside a café in downtown Cairo killing three. Among the 18 wounded were two U.S. citizens. No one claimed responsibility for the attack.
February 26, 1993

New York, USA
	A massive van bomb exploded in an underground parking garage below the World Trade Center in New York City, killing six and wounding 1,042. Four Islamist activists were responsible for the attack. Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the operation's alleged mastermind, escaped but was later arrested in Pakistan and extradited to the United States. Abd al-Hakim Murad, another suspected conspirator, was arrested by local authorities in the Philippines and handed over to the United States. The two, along with two other terrorists, were tried in the U.S. and sentenced to 240 years.
July 5, 1993

Southeast Turkey
	In eight separate incidents, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) kidnapped a total of 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey. The hostages, including U.S. citizen Colin Patrick Starger, were released unharmed after spending several weeks in captivity.
December 1, 1993

Jerusalem, Israel

Yitzhak Weinstock, 19, whose family came from Los Angeles, CA, was killed in a drive-by shooting. Hamas took responsibility for the attack
October 9, 1994

Ramallah, West Bank

Nachshon Wachsman, 19, whose family came from New York, was kidnapped and then murdered by Hamas.
October 9, 1994

Jerusalem, Israel

Shooting attack on cafe-goers in Jerusalem. U.S. citizens Scot Doberstein and Eric Goldberg were injured.
March 8, 1995

Karachi, Pakistan
	Two unidentified gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles opened fire on a U.S. Consulate van in Karachi, killing two U.S. diplomats, Jacqueline Keys Van Landingham and Gary C. Durell, and wounding a third, Mark McCloy.
April 9, 1995

Kfar Darom and Netzarim, Gaza Strip

Two suicide attacks were carried out within a few hours of each other in Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip. In the first attack a suicide bomber crashed an explosive-rigged van into an Israeli bus in Netzarim, killing eight including U.S. citizen Alisa Flatow, 20, of West Orange, NJ. More than 30 others were injured. In the second attack, a suicide bomber detonated a car bomb in the midst of a convoy of cars in Kfar Darom, injuring 12. The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) Shaqaqi Faction claimed responsibility for the attacks. U.S. citizens Chava Levine and Seth Klein were injured.
June 15, 1995

Jerusalem, Israel

U.S. citizen Howard Tavens of Cleveland, OH was injured in a stabbing attack.
July 4, 1995

Kashmir, India


In Kashmir, a previously unknown militant group, Al-Faran, with suspected links to a Kashmiri separatist group in Pakistan, took hostage six tourists, including two U.S. citizens. They demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. One of the U.S. citizens escaped on July 8, while on August 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found along with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group's demands were not met. The Indian Government refused. Both Indian and American authorities believe the rest of the hostages were most likely killed in 1996 by their jailers.
August 1995,

Istanbul, Turkey
	A bombing of Istanbul's popular Taksim Square injured two U.S. citizens. This attack was part of a three-year-old attempt by the PKK to drive foreign tourists away from Turkey by striking at tourist sites.
August 21, 1995

Jerusalem, Israel

A bus bombing in Jerusalem by the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) killed four, including American Joan Davenny of New Haven, CT, and wounded more than 100. U.S. citizens injured: Chanoch Bleier, Judith Shulewitz, Bernard Batta.
September 9, 1995

Ma'ale Michmash, Israel

American killed: Unborn child of Mrs. Mara Frey of Chicago. Mara Frey was injured.
November 9, 1995

Algiers, Algeria


Islamic extremists set fire to a warehouse belonging to the U.S. Embassy, threatened the Algerian security guard because he was working for the United States, and demanded to know whether any U.S. citizens were present. The Armed Islamic Group (GIA) probably carried out the attacks. The group had threatened to strike other foreign targets and especially U.S. objectives in Algeria, and the attack's style was similar to past GIA operations against foreign facilities.
November 13, 1995

Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
	A car bomb exploded in the parking lot outside of the Riyadh headquarters of the Office of the Program Manager/Saudi Arabian National Guard, killing seven persons, five of them U.S. citizens, and wounding 42. The blast severely damaged the three-story building, which houses a U.S. military advisory group, and several neighboring office buildings. Three groups -- the Islamic Movement for Change, the Tigers of the Gulf, and the Combatant Partisans of God -- claimed responsibility for the attack.
February 25, 1996

Jerusalem, Israel

A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them three other U.S. citizens. Hamas claimed responsibility for the bombing. U. S. citizens killed: Sara Duker, of Teaneck, NJ, Matthew Eisenfeld of West Hartford, CT, Ira Weinstein of Bronx, NY. U.S. citizens injured: Beatrice Kramer, Steven Lapides, and Leah Stein Mousa.
March 4, 1996

Tel Aviv, Israel

A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device outside the Dizengoff Center, Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall, killing 20 persons and injuring 75 others, including two U.S. citizens. Both Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing. U.S. citizens injured included Julie K. Negrin of Seattle, WA.
May 13, 1996

Beit-El, West Bank

Arab gunmen opened fire on a hitchhiking stand near Beit El, wounding three Israelis and killing David Boim, 17, an American-Israeli from New York. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, although either the Islamic Jihad or Hamas are suspected. U.S. citizens injured: Moshe Greenbaum, 17.
June 9, 1996

Zekharya, West Bank
	Yaron Ungar, an American-Israeli, and his Israeli wife were killed in a drive-by shooting near their West Bank home. The PFLP is suspected.
June 25, 1996

Dhahran, Saudi Arabia


A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the U.S. military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack. In June 2001, a U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, identified Saudi Hizballah as the party responsible for the attack. The court indicated that the members of the organization, banned from Saudi Arabia, "frequently met and were trained in Lebanon, Syria, or Iran" with Libyan help.
August 17, 1996

Mapourdit, Sudan
	Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) rebels kidnapped six missionaries in Mapourdit, including a U.S citizen. The SPLA released the hostages on August 28.
November 1, 1996

Sudan
	A breakaway group of the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three workers of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), including one U.S citizen. The rebels released the hostages on December 9 in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey of their camp.
December 3, 1996

Paris, France
	A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected.
January 2, 1997

Washington, DC, New York, London & Riyadh
	A series of letter bombs with Alexandria, Egypt postmarks were discovered at Al-Hayat newspaper bureaus in Washington, DC, New York, London, and Riyadh. Three similar devices, also postmarked in Egypt, were found at a prison facility in Leavenworth, Kansas. Bomb disposal experts defused all the devices, but one detonated at the Al-Hayat newspaper office in London, injuring two security guards and causing minor damage.
February 23, 1997

New York, USA
	A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."
July 30, 1997

Jerusalem, Israel

Two bombs detonated in Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda market, killing 15 persons, including a U.S. citizen and wounding 168 others, among them two U.S. citizens. The Izz-el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Mrs. Leah Stern of Passaic, NJ. U.S. citizens injured: Dov Dalin.
September 4, 1997

Jerusalem, Israel

Bombing on Ben-Yehuda Street, Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Yael Botwin, 14, of Los Angeles and Jerusalem. U.S. citizens injured: Diana Campuzano of New York, Abraham Mendelson of Los Angeles, CA, Greg Salzman of New Jersey, Stuart E. Hersh of Kiryat Arba, Israel, Michael Alzer, Abraham Elias, David Keinan, Daniel Miller of Boca Raton, FL, Noam Rozenman of Jerusalem, Jenny (Yocheved) Rubin of Los Angeles, CA. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
October 30, 1997

Sanaa, Yemen


Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. The hostage was released on November 27.
November 12, 1997

Karachi, Pakistan
	Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum and their Pakistani driver as they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. Two groups claimed responsibility -- the Islamic Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council and the Aimal Secret Committee, also known as the Aimal Khufia Action Committee.
November 25, 1997

Aden, Yemen
	Yemenite tribesmen kidnapped a U.S citizen, two Italians, and two unspecified Westerners near Aden to protest the eviction of a tribe member from his home. The kidnappers released the five hostages on November 27.
February 6, 1998

Jerusalem, Israel

Stabbing in Jerusalem. U.S. Citizen Yosef Lepon, 17 injured.
April 19, 1998

Maon, Israel

Dov Driben, a 28-year-old American-Israeli farmer was killed by terrorists near the West Bank town of Maon. One of his assailants, Issa Debavseh, a member of Fatah Tanzim, was killed on November 7, 2001, by the IDF after being on their wanted list for the murder.
June 21, 1998

Beirut, Lebanon


Three rocket-propelled grenades attached to a crude detonator exploded near the U.S. Embassy compound in Beirut, causing no casualties and little damage. August 7, 1998, Nairobi, Kenya. A car bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi. The attack killed a total of 292, including 12 U.S. citizens, and injured over 5,000, among them six Americans. The perpetrators belonged to al-Qaida, Usama bin Ladin's network.
August 7, 1998

Dar es Sala'am, Tanzania
	A car bomb exploded outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Sala'am, killing 11 and injuring 86. Osama bin Laden's organization al-Qaida claimed responsibility for the attack. Two suspects were arrested.
November 21, 1998

Tehran, Iran
	Members of Fedayeen Islam, shouting anti-American slogans and wielding stones and iron rods, attacked a group of American tourists in Tehran. Some of the tourists suffered minor injuries from flying glass.
December 28, 1998

Mawdiyah, Yemen
	Sixteen tourists--12 Britons, two Americans and two Australians--were taken hostage in the largest kidnapping in Yemen's recent history. The tourists were seized in the Abyan province (some 175 miles south of Sanaa the capital). One Briton and a Yemeni guide escaped, while the rest were taken to city of Mawdiyah. Four hostages were killed when troops closed in and two were wounded, including an American woman. The kidnappers, members of the Islamic Army of Aden-Abyan, an offshoot of Al-Jihad, had demanded the release from jail of their leader, Saleh Haidara al-Atwi.
October 31, 1999

Massachusetts, USA
	EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans. Although it is not precisely clear what happened, evidence indicated that an Egyptian pilot crashed the plane for personal or political reasons.
November 4, 1999

Athens, Greece
	A group protesting President Clinton's visit to Greece hid a gas bomb at an American car dealership in Athens. Two cars were destroyed and several others damaged. Anti-State Action claimed responsibility for the attack, but the November 17 group was also suspected.
November 12, 1999

Islamabad, Pakistan
	Six rockets were fired at the U.S. Information Services cultural center and United Nations offices in Islamabad, injuring a Pakistani guard.
September 29, 2000

Jerusalem, Israel

Attack on motorists. U.S. citizens injured: Avi Herman of Teaneck, NJ, Naomi Herman of Teaneck, NJ.
September 29, 2000

Jerusalem, Israel

Attack on taxi passengers. U.S. citizens injured: Tuvia Grossman of Chicago, Todd Pollack of Norfolk, VA, Andrew Feibusch of New York.
October 4, 2000

Bethlehem, West Bank

U.S. citizens injured: An unidentified American tourist.
October 5, 2000

Jerusalem, Israel

Attack on a motorist. U.S. citizens injured: Rabbi Chaim Brovender of Brooklyn.
October 8, 2000

Nablus, West Bank

The bullet-ridden body of Rabbi Hillel Lieberman, a U.S. citizen from Brooklyn living in the Jewish settlement of Elon Moreh, was found at the entrance to the West Bank town of Nablus. Lieberman had headed there after hearing that Palestinians had desecrated the religious site, Joseph's Tomb. No organization claimed responsibility for the murder.
October 12, 2000

Aden, Yemen
	A suicide squad rammed the warship the U.S.S. Cole with an explosives-laden boat killing 13 American sailors and injuring 33. The attack was likely by Osama bin Ladin's al-Qaida organization.
October 30, 2000

Jerusalem, Israel

Gunmen killed Eish Kodesh Gilmor, a 25-year-old American-Israeli on duty as a security guard at the National Insurance Institute in Jerusalem. The "Martyrs of the Al-Aqsa Intifada," a group linked to Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. Gilmor's family filed a suit in the U.S. District Court in Washington against the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, Chairman Yasser Arafat and members of Force 17, as being responsible for the attack.
December 31, 2000

Ofra, Israel

Rabbi Binyamin Kahane, 34, and his wife, Talia Hertzlich Kahane, both formerly of Brooklyn, NY were killed in a drive-by shooting. Their children, Yehudit Leah Kahane, Bitya Kahane, Tzivya Kahane, Rivka Kahane, and Shlomtsion Kahane, were injured in the attack.
March 28, 2001

Neve Yamin, Israel

Bombing at bus stop. U.S. citizens injured: Netanel Herskovitz, 15, formerly of Hempstead, NY.
May 9, 2001

Tekoa, West Bank

Kobi Mandell, 13, of Silver Spring, MD, an American-Israeli, was found stoned to death along with a friend in a cave near the Jewish settlement of Tekoa. Two organizations, the Islamic Jihad and Hizballah-Palestine, claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 29, 2001

Gush Etzion, West Bank

The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for a drive-by shooting of six in the West Bank that killed two American-Israeli citizens, Samuel Berg, and his mother, Sarah Blaustein. U.S. citizens injured: Norman Blaustein of Lawrence, NY.
July 19, 2001

Hebron, West Bank

Shooting attack. U.S. citizens injured: An unidentified woman from Brooklyn, NY.
August 9, 2001

Jerusalem, Israel

A suicide bombing at Sbarro's, a pizzeria situated in one of the busiest areas of downtown Jerusalem, killed 15 people and wounded more than 90. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Judith L. Greenbaum, 31, of New Jersey and California, Malka Roth, 15, whose family was from New York. U.S. citizens injured: David Danzig, 21, of Wynnewood, PA, Matthew P. Gordon, 25, of New York, Joanne (Chana) Nachenberg, 31, Sara Shifra Nachenberg, 2.
August 18, 2001

Jerusalem, Israel

Shooting at a bus. U.S. citizen injured: Andrew Feibusch of New York.
August 27, 2001

Roglit, Israel


Shooting attack. U.S. citizen injured: Ben Dansker.
September 11, 2001

New York, Washington D.C., & Pennsylvania, USA
	During a carefully coordinated attack, 19 Islamist extremists hijacked four U.S. jetliners and forced them to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, and more than 3,000 people were killed on the ground. U.S. investigators determined on the basis of extensive evidence that Usama bin Ladin's al-Qaida group was responsible for the attack. The first plane, American Airlines Flight 11 en route from Boston to Los Angeles, crashed into the World Trade Center's north tower at 8:48 a.m. Eighteen minutes later, United Airlines Flight 175, also headed from Boston to Los Angeles, smashed into the World Trade Center's south tower. At 9:40 a.m. a third airplane, an American Airlines Boeing 757 that left Washington's Dulles International Airport for Los Angeles, crashed into the western part of the Pentagon where 24,000 people worked. The fourth plane, a United Airlines Flight 93 flying from Newark to San Francisco, crashed near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, most likely before it could hit its target. Hundreds of firefighters, police officers and other rescue workers who arrived in the site after the first plane crash were killed or injured.
November 4, 2001

Jerusalem, Israel
	Shoshana Ben-Yishai, 16, of Queens, NY was killed in a shooting at a bus station. U.S. citizen injured: Shlomo Kaye.
December 2, 2001

Jerusalem, Israel
	Bombing on Ben-Yehuda Street, Jerusalem. U.S. citizens injured: Ziv Brill, 17, of West Hempstead, Long Island, NY, Temima Spetner, 19, of St. Louis, MI, Jason Kirshenbaum of New Rochelle, NY, Israel Hirschfield, 18, Joseph Leifer, 29, of Borough Park (Brooklyn), NY.
December 18, 2001

Between Jerusalem & Shilo, Israel
	U.S. citizens injured: David Rubin, 44, of Brooklyn, NY, Asher "Ruby" Rubin, 3.
January 15, 2002

Bethlehem, West Bank
	Avraham Boaz, 71, of New York, a dual Israeli-American citizen, was kidnapped at a PA security checkpoint in Beit Jala and murdered.
January 18, 2002

Hadera, Israel
	U.S. citizen killed in shooting attack: Aaron Elis, 32, son of Chicago family.
January 22, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	U.S. citizen injured in shooting attack: Shayna Gould, 19, of Chicago, IL
January 27, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in downtown Jerusalem killing one elderly Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and 16 and 12-year-old daughters. Sokolow had earlier survived the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed.
February 8, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	Stabbing in Abu Tor Peace Forest Jerusalem. U.S. citizen killed: Moranne Amit, 25
February 15, 2002

Ramallah, West Bank
	Lee Akunis was shot to death.
February 16, 2002

Karnei Shomron, West Bank
	Bombing. U.S. citizens killed: Keren Shatsky, 14, of Brooklyn, NY and Maine, Rachel Thaler, 16, of Baltimore, MD. U.S. citizens injured: Lior Thaler, 14, of Baltimore, MD, Hillel Trattner of Chicago, IL, Ronit Yucht Trattner of Chicago, IL, Chani Friedman of New York.
February 19, 2002

Neve Dekalim, Gaza Strip
	Shooting. U.S. citizens injured: Moshe Saperstein of New York.
February 25, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	Moran Amit, 25, was stabbed to death in Abu Tor Peace Forest in Jerusalem.
March 7, 2002

Ariel, Israel
	A Christian tourist from Arkansas lost her right eye in an attack by a suicide bomber on the Eshel Hashomron Hotel.
March 21, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	Bombing on a Jerusalem street. U.S. citizens injured: Alan Joseph Bauer, 37, of Chicago, Yonathon Bauer, 7 (dual U.S.-Israeli citizenship).
March 24, 2002

Ofra, Israel
	Shooting near Ofra. U.S. citizens killed:    Esther Kleinman, 23, formerly of Chicago, IL.
March 27, 2002

Netanya, Israel
	U.S. citizen Hannah Rogen, 90, was killed in a suicide attack at a Passover Seder.
March 31, 2002

Efrat, Israel
	Bombing in Efrat. U.S. citizens injured:   An unidentified American citizen.
June 18, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	Moshe Gottlieb, 70, of Los Angeles, CA was killed in a bus bombing in Jerusalem.
June 19, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	Gila Sara Kessler, 19, whose family came from New York, was killed in a bombing at a bus stop.
July 31, 2002

Jerusalem, Israel
	Nine people were killed when a bomb exploded in the main cafeteria at the Hebrew University's Mount Scopus campus in Jerusalem. Five were U.S. citizens: Janis Ruth Coulter, 36, of MA; Marla Bennet, 24, of San Diego, CA; David Gritz (also a French citizen), 24, of Peru, MA; Benjamin Blutstein, 25, of Susquehanna Township, PA; and Dina Carter, 37, of NC. Israelis David Ladovsky, 29, and Levina Shapira, 53 also died in the bombing. U.S. citizens injured: Spencer Dew, 26, of Owensboro, Kentucky; Zeev Spencer; Harris Gershon; Jamie Harris. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
March 5, 2003

Haifa, Israel
	Bus bombing. U.S. citizens killed: Abigail Leitel, 14, who was born in Lebanon, New Hampshire.
March 7, 2003

Kiryat Arba, West Bank
	U.S. citizens killed in a shooting on their house: Rabbi Eli Horowitz, 52, who grew up in Chicago; Dina Horowitz, 50, who grew up in Florida
April 30, 2003

Tel Aviv, Israel
	U.S. citizens injured in a suicide bombing: Jack Baxter, 50, of New York City.
June 11, 2003

Jerusalem, Israel
	U.S. citizens killed in a bus bombing: Alan Beer, 47, who grew up in Cleveland. U.S. citizens injured: Sarri Singer, 27, daughter of New Jersey State Senator Robert Singer.
June 20, 2003

West Bank
	U.S. citizens killed in shooting attack: Tzvi Goldstein, 47, who grew up in New York; U.S. citizens injured: Eugene Goldstein, Tzvis father, of Long Island, New York; Lorraine Goldstein, Tzvis mother, of Long Island, New York; Michal Goldstein, Tzvis wife, who grew up in New York.
August 19, 2003

Jerusalem, Israel
	U.S. citizens killed in a bus bombing: Goldie Taubenfeld, 43, of New Square, New York; Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, of New Square, New York; Mordechai Reinitz, 49; Yitzhak Reinitz, 9. Tehilla Nathanson, 3, of Monsey, New York; U.S. citizens injured: Mendel Reinitz, 11.
September 9, 2003

Jerusalem, Israel
	Suicide Bombing: David Applebaum, 51, and his daughter Nava, 20, originally of Cleveland were killed.
October 15, 2003

Gaza Strip
	Bombing of American convoy: John Branchizio, 37, Mark Parson, 31, and John Martin Linde, 30, were on contract to the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv through the defense contracting company Dyncorp.U.S. citizens injured: One as-yet-unnamed U.S. citizen (reportedly a diplomat).
September 24, 2004

Neve Dekalim, Gaza Strip
	Mortar Strike on house: Tiferet Tratner, 24, (dual U.S.-Israeli citizenship).
April 17, 2006

Tel Aviv, Israel
	Homicide bombing at the Rosh Ha'ir restaurant: Daniel Wultz, 16, of Weston, Florida, died one month after receiving his wounds in this bombing.
September 12, 2006

Damascus, Syria

Four attackers armed with grenades and machine guns attempt to storm the U.S. embassy in Damascus. Three of the gunmen and one Syrian guard are killed during a battle between the attackers and Syrian security forces. One Syrian employee of the embassy and at least ten bystanders are wounded.
December 18, 2010

Jerusalem, Israel
	Kristine Luken, a US citizen living in England and touring in Israel, was stabbed to death by Palestinian terrorists while hiking in the hills west of Jerusalem with a friend.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians have never targeted Americans or American targets.
> ...



Just like I said, Palestinian groups have never targeted Americans or American targets.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Hey, it's cool as long as it doesn't happen on US soil.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Hey, it's cool as long as it doesn't happen on US soil.



I'm an American.  My main concern is the targeting of my people or our establishments.


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## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Hey, it's cool as long as it doesn't happen on US soil.



While he only wants to focus on Israel, let us remember that his Muslim friends or maybe even his fellow Muslims for all we know have been busy murdering innocent others all over the place, even other innocent Muslims of different sects.  Good thing the intelligence agencies have been on the ball here in the U.S. and have picked up these people before they had a chance to commit the atrocity that they had planned.  If any had succeeded, can you imagine the happiness many Muslims would have felt, just like they felt on 911 and no doubt they felt when atrocities were committed in other countries like Great Britain?


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, it's cool as long as it doesn't happen on US soil.
> ...



are you intentionally clueless?  

I'm sure you can explain how american's are not targeted to the family and friends of victims like Leon Klinghoffer


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> are you intentionally clueless?
> 
> I'm sure you can explain how american's are not targeted to the family and friends of victims like Leon Klinghoffer



Klinghoffer was not targeted because he was an American.

Want to try another?


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > are you intentionally clueless?
> ...



You are condoning murder.


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Palestinians have never targeted Americans or American targets.


Ah so Palestinians like Nidal Hasan the Fort Hood terrorist Jihadi, isn't considered an attack.  And neither are the hundreds of Americans killed by Palestinian animals abroad, nor are American soldiers stationed in countries where Palestinian animals can get their hands on them.  Good to know.

The reason there aren't that many attacks on American soil is because they can't, not because they don't want to.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





You seem to forget that the advent of the internet has placed evidence of the reality on everyone's computer screens. So when they see 3 solid years of rocket attacks, some armed with chemical or biological warheads, they wonder when Israel is going to respond. When they do respond the war is shown as it happens and the viewers see the human shields placed around the rocket launchers on the roofs of schools and hospitals. The grenade launchers in front of civilian homes. And they become sickened at a people that treat the life of a child so casually, so they turn against the gazan terrorist scum and wish them all dead. 
 As for the aid ship the truth was it was just a decoy carrying rotten food and dangerous out of date medical supplies. In accordance with maritime law and the Geneva conventions Israel demanded the vessel put in at an Israeli port were the goods would be offloaded, checked for illegal items and then forwarded to gaza. The muslim passengers refused and took control of the vessel so the Israelis tried to board the ship to subdue the crew. The muslim terrorists on board are then seen to be throwing grenades at the Israeli boarding parties, and hand guns are seen in the hands of the muslim terrorists. An Israeli officer is seen to descend a rope and is repeatedly hit with a long metal pole. He is then stabbed with a large knife or small sword, and the wound is opened up as much as possible. He is then thrown into the sea  by the muslim terrorists who are screaming allahu Akbar all the time. Then and only then are the Israeli boarding party given permission to draw their weapons and defend themselves against the heavily armed and fanatical muslim terrorists. When the contents were delivered to gaza the leaders destroyed it all as worthless rubbish.
This was filmed by a western press crew who hid the memory card so that the world could see the truth, they have since denounced the Palestinian cause because of the terrorism seen that day.


The only communities that show any marked increase in anti Semitism and Jew hatred are the neoNazi and Islamic ones, and it is like a red rag to a bull.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> You are condoning murder.



Folks here have condoned war crimes against non-Jews yet you remain silent.

So unless you're going to apply your love of humanity equally, go away.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians have never targeted Americans or American targets.
> ...



I'll say it again and I'm sure I'll have to repeat this fact further.

Americans have never been targeted by Palestinians.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You are condoning murder.
> ...



Define the war crime.
I do not extend my love of humanity to murderers.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > That's true.
> ...






 And by the same token when we see the terrorism coming out of gaza, the many millions murdered in the arab spring and the on going civil wars next to Israel we see the true islam and fear for were the next outbreak of extremism will be. That should be your concern also because it could be you or yours that is the next target.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Sorry to burst your bubble but most of Europe sees it the same way, and now Russia is getting tougher on its muslim problem. For every dead muslim terrorist there are 10,000 people having a party because they feel that little bit safer.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > That because not only are Israel and the US close allies, but they also fight the same enemy.
> ...







Tell that to the families of the many innocents murdered by muslims in support of Palestine. You should be able to find at least 3,000 in the USA alone.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



misuse of confiscated private land in Occupied Territory.

collective punishment against Protected Persons in Occupied Territory.

illegal restrictions upon the lives of Protected Persons in Occupied Territory.

ethnic cleansing 

these are war crimes that Israel has committed.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...







 What about the WTC then, why was that targeted by muslim terrorists that supported the terrorists in Palestine ?


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Yawn...
You must be mourning the fact that the civilian populations of Egypt, Syria and Jordan are waking up to your propaganda.
Hopefully all that brain power will result in a more advanced world.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...






 No doubt every single one in one way or another. Lets just say that many were the insurgents in Iraq who shot at American soldiers doing their jobs.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



That's the West Bank Jordanian Sympathy Sniper Association of The Islamic Brotherhood.
Yep, that was a complete ad lib.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...






 Don't forget the poster child when an American tourist was badly beaten by a gang of Palestinians in Jerusalem. And his picture was used as propaganda by the palestinians


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting, how many of those attacked the US?
> ...







Then you have not read the many links given on here that show they do.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians have never targeted Americans or American targets.
> ...







 I believe that the Palestinians were complicit in the first WTC bombing through their Iraqi connections


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Each group has their domain.
When they cross domains they kill each other.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...






 How about Bobby Kennedy assassinated by a Palestinian in 1968.


 Since then the list has grew and here in is right up to 2001



February 23, 1970, Halhoul, West Bank.  Palestinian Liberation Organization  terrorists open fire on a busload of pilgrims killing Barbara Ertle of Michigan and wounding two other Americans.

March 28-29, 1970, Beirut, Lebanon. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) fired seven rockets at the U.S. Embassy, the American Insurance Company, Bank of America and the John F. Kennedy library.

September 14, 1970, En route to Amman, Jordan. The PFLP hijacked a TWA flight from Zurich, Switzerland and forced it to land in Amman. Four American citizens were injured.

May 30, 1972, Ben Gurion Airport, Israel. Three members of the Japanese Red Army, acting on the PFLP's bbehalf, carried out a machine-gun and grenade attack at Israel's main airport, killing 26 and wounding 78 people. Many of the casualties were American citizens, mostly from Puerto Rico. 

September 5, 1972, Munich, Germany. During the Olympic Games in Munich, Black September, a front for Fatah, took hostage 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team. Nine athletes were killed including weightlifter David Berger, an American-Israeli from Cleveland, Ohio. 

March 2, 1973, Khartoum, Sudan. Cleo A. Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador to  Sudan, and George C. Moore, also a U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum. It seems likely that Fatah was responsible for the attack. 

September 8, 1974, Athens, Greece. TWA Flight 841, flying from Tel Aviv to New York, made a scheduled stop in Athens. Shortly after takeoff, it crashed into the Ionian Sea and all 88 passengers were killed, including 32-year-old Steven R. Lowe, husband Jeremiah Michel and wife, Kathrine Hadley Michel of Poughkeepsie, NY, Frederick and Margaret Hare of Bernardsville, NJ, Ralph H. Bosh of Madison, CT, Seldon and Etan Bard of Tuckahoe, NY, Dr. and Mrs. Frederick Stohlman of Newton, MA, Don H. Holiday of Mahwah, NJ, and Jon L. Chesire of Old Lyme, Ct; all of which were Almerican citizens. An investigation of the crash conclusively established that it was caused by explosives set in the rear cargo department of the plane. 

June 29, 1975, Beirut, Lebanon. The PFLP kidnapped the U.S. military attaché to Lebanon, Ernest Morgan, and demanded food, clothing and building materials for indigent residents living near Beirut harbor. The American diplomat was released after an anonymous benefactor provided food to the neighborhood. 

November 14, 1975, Jerusalem, Israel. Lola Nunberg, 53, of New York, was injured during a bombing attack in downtown Jerusalem. Fatah claimed responsibility for the bombing, which killed six people and wounded 38. 

November 21, 1975, Ramat Hamagshimim, Israel. Michael Nadler, an American-Israeli from Miami Beach, Florida, was killed when axe-wielding terrorists from the Democrat Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a PLO faction, attacked students in the Golan Heights. 

August 11, 1976, Istanbul, Turkey. The PFLP launched an attack on the terminal of Israel's major airline, El Al, at the Istanbul airport. Four civilians, including Harold Rosenthal of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, were killed and 20 injured. 

January 1, 1977, Beirut, Lebanon. Frances E. Meloy, U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, were kidnapped by PFLP members as they crossed a militia checkpoint separating the Christian from the Muslim parts of Beirut. They were later shot to death. 

March 11, 1978, Tel Aviv, Israel. Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Abraham Ribicoff, was among 38 people shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach. 

June 2, 1978, Jerusalem, Israel. Richard Fishman, a medical student from Maryland, was among six killed in a PLO bus bombing in Jerusalem. Chava Sprecher, another American citizen from Seattle, Washington, was injured. 

May 4, 1979, Tiberias, Israel. Haim Mark and his wife, Haya, of New Haven, Connecticut were injured in a PLO bombing attack in northern Israel. 

November 4, 1979, Teheran, Iran. After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the U.S., Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981. 

May 2, 1980, Hebron, West Bank. Eli Haze'ev, an American-Israeli from Alexandria, Virginia, was killed in a PLO attack on Jewish worshippers walking home from a synagogue in  Hebron. 

July 19, 1982, Beirut, Lebanon.  Hizballah members kidnapped David Dodge, acting president of the American University in Beirut. After a year in captivity, Dodge was released. Rifat Assad, head of Syrian Intelligence, helped in the negotiation with the terrorists. 

August 19, 1982, Paris, France. Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris. 

March 16, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. Five American Marines were wounded in a hand grenade attack while on patrol north of Beirut International Airport. The Islamic Jihad and Al-Amal, a Shi'ite militia, claimed responsibility for the attack. 

April 18, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon.  A truck-bomb detonated by a remote control exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 employees, including the CIA's Middle East director, and wounding 120.  Hizballah, with financial backing from Iran, was responsible for the attack. 

July 1, 1983, Hebron, Israel. Aharon Gross, 19, an American-Israeli from New York, was stabbed to death by PLO terrorists in the Hebron marketplace. 

September 29, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. Two American marines were kidnapped by Amal members. They were released after intervention by a Lebanese army officer. 

October 23, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. A truck loaded with a bomb crashed into the lobby of the U.S. Marines headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 soldiers and wounding 81. The attack was carried out by  Hizballah with the help of Syrian intelligence and financed by Iran. 

December 19, 1983, Jerusalem, Israel. Serena Sussman, a 60-year-old tourist from Anderson, South Carolina, died from injuries from the PLO bombing of a bus in Jerusalem 13 days earlier. 

January 18, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Malcolm Kerr, a Lebanese born American who was president of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two gunmen outside his office.  Hizballah said the assassination was part of the organization's plan to "drive all Americans out from Lebanon." 

March 7, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon.  Hizballah members kidnapped Jeremy Levin, Beirut bureau chief of Cable News Network (CNN). Levin managed to escape and reach Syrian army barracks. He was later transferred to American hands. 

March 8, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Three  Hizballah members kidnapped Reverend Benjamin T. Weir, while he was walking with his wife in Beirut's Manara neighborhood. Weir was released after 16 months of captivity with Syrian and Iranian assistance. 

March 16, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon.  Hizballah kidnapped William Buckley, a political officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Buckley was supposed to be exchanged for prisoners. However when the transaction failed to take place, he was reportedly transported to Iran. Although his body was never found, the U.S. administration declared the American diplomat dead. 

April 12, 1984, Torrejon, Spain.  Hizballah bombed a restaurant near an U.S. Air Force base in Torrejon, Spain, wounding 83 people. 

September 20, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. A suicide bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in East Beirut killed 23 people and injured 21. The American and British ambassadors were slightly injured in the attack, attributed to the Iranian backed  Hizballah group. 

September 20, 1984, Aukar, Lebanon. Islamic Jihad detonate a van full of explosives 30 feet in front of the U.S. Embassy annex severely damaging the building, killing two U.S. servicemen and seven Lebanese employees, as well as 5 to 15 non-employees. Twenty Americans were injured, including U.S. Ambassador Reginald Bartholomew and visiting British Ambassador David Miers. An estimated 40 to 50 Lebanese were hurt. The attack came in response to the U.S. veto September 6 of a U.N. Security Council resolution.

December 4, 1984, Tehran, Iran.  Hizballah terrorists hijacked a Kuwait Airlines plane en route from Dubai, United Emirates, to Karachi, Pakistan. They demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of members of Da'Wa, a group of Shiite extremists serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets on Kuwaiti territory. The terrorists forced the pilot to fly to Tehran where the terrorists murdered two passengers--American Agency for International Development employees, Charles Hegna and William Stanford. Although an Iranian special unit ended the incident by storming the plane and arresting the terrorists, the Iranian government might also have been involved in the hijacking. 

June 14, 1985, Between Athens and Rome. Two  Hizballah members hijacked a TWA flight en route to Rome from Athens and forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. The terrorists, believed to belong to  Hizballah, asked for the release of members of the group Kuwait 17 and 700 Shi'ite prisoners held in Israeli and South Lebanese prisons. The eight crewmembers and 145 passengers were held for 17 days during which one of the hostages, Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft returned to Beirut and the hostages were released. Later on, four  Hizballah members were secretly indicted. One of them, the  Hizballah senior officer Imad Mughniyah, was indicted in absentia. 

October 7, 1985, Between Alexandria, Egypt and Haifa, Israel. A four-member PFLP squad took over the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, as it was sailing from Alexandria, Egypt, to Israel. The squad murdered a disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, by throwing him in the ocean. The rest of the passengers were held hostage for two days and later released after the terrorists turned themselves in to Egyptian authorities in return for safe passage. But U.S. Navy fighters intercepted the Egyptian aircraft flying the terrorists to Tunis and forced it to land at the NATO airbase in Italy, where the terrorists were arrested. Two of the terrorists were tried in Italy and sentenced to prison. The Italian authorities however let the two others escape on diplomatic passports. Abu Abbas, who masterminded the hijacking, was later convicted to life imprisonment in absentia. 

December 27, 1985, Rome, Italy. Four terrorists from  Abu Nidal's organization attacked El Al offices at the Leonardo di Vinci Airport in Rome. Thirteen people, including five Americans, were killed and 74 wounded, among them two Americans. The terrorists had come from Damascus and were supported by the Syrian regime. 

March 30, 1986, Athens, Greece. A bomb exploded on a TWA flight from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed four U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, although the plane safely landed. The bombing was attributed to the Fatah Special Operations Group's intelligence and security apparatus, headed by Abdullah Abd al-Hamid Labib, alias Colonel Hawari. 

April 5, 1986, West Berlin, Germany. An explosion at the "La Belle" nightclub in Berlin, frequented by American soldiers, killed three--2 U.S. soldiers and a Turkish woman-and wounded 191 including 41 U.S. soldiers. Given evidence of Libyan involvement, the U.S. Air Force made a retaliatory attack against Libyan targets on April 17. Libya refused to hand over to Germany five suspects believed to be there. Others, however, were tried including Yassir Shraidi and Musbah Eter, arrested in Rome in August 1997 and extradited; and also Ali Chanaa, his wife, Verena Chanaa, and her sister, Andrea Haeusler. Shraidi, accused of masterminding the attack, was sentenced to 14 years in jail. The Libyan diplomat Musbah Eter and Ali Chanaa were both sentenced to 12 years in jail. Verena Chanaa was sentenced to 14 years in prison. Andrea Haeusler was acquitted. 

September 5, 1986, Karachi, Pakistan. Abu Nidal members hijacked a Pan Am flight leaving Karachi, Pakistan bound for Frankfurt, Germany and New York with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans. The terrorists forced the plane to land in Larnaca, Cyprus, where they demanded the release of two Palestinians and a Briton jailed for the murder of three Israelis there in 1985. The terrorists killed 22 of the passengers, including two American citizens and wounded many others. They were caught and indicted by a Washington grand jury in 1991.

September 9, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Continuing its anti-American attacks,  Hizballah kidnapped Frank Reed, director of the American University in Beirut, whom they accused of being "a CIA agent." He was released 44 months later. September 12, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon.  Hizballah kidnapped Joseph Cicippio, the acting comptroller at the American University in Beirut. Cicippio was released five years later on December 1991. 

October 15, 1986, Jerusalem, Israel. Gali Klein, an American citizen, was killed in a grenade attack by Fatah at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. 

October 21, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon.  Hizballah kidnapped Edward A. Tracy, an American citizen in Beirut. He was released five years later, on August 1991. 

February 17, 1988, Ras-Al-Ein Tyre, Lebanon. Col. William Higgins, the American chief of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization, was abducted by  Hizballah while driving from Tyre to Nakura. The hostages demanded the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon and the release of all Palestinian and Lebanese held prisoners in Israel. The U.S. government refused to answer the request.  Hizballah later claimed they killed Higgins. 

December 21, 1988, Lockerbie, Scotland. Pan Am Flight 103 departing from Frankfurt to New York was blown up in midair, killing all 259 passengers and another 11 people on the ground in Scotland. Two Libyan agents were found responsible for planting a sophisticated suitcase bomb onboard the plane. On 14 November 1991, arrest warrants were issued for Al-Amin Khalifa Fahima and Abdel Baset Ali Mohamed al-Megrahi. After Libya refused to extradite the suspects to stand trial, the United Nations leveled sanctions against the country in April 1992, including the freezing of Libyan assets abroad. In 1999, Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi agreed to hand over the two suspects, but only if their trial was held in a neutral country and presided over by a Scottish judge. With the help of Saudi Arabia's King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah, Al-Megrahi and Fahima were finally extradited and tried in Camp Zeist in the Netherlands. Megrahi was found guilty and jailed for life, while Fahima was acquitted due to a "lack of evidence" of his involvement. After the extradition, UN sanctions against Libya were automatically lifted. 

January 27, 1989, Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey. Three simultaneous bombings were carried out against U.S. business targets--the Turkish American Businessmen Association and the Economic Development Foundation in Istanbul, and the Metal Employees Union in Ankara. The Dev Sol (Revolutionary Left) was held responsible for the attacks. 

March 6, 1989, Cairo, Egypt. Two explosive devices were safely removed from the grounds of the American and British Cultural centers in Cairo. Three organizations were believed to be responsible for the attack: The January 15 organization, which had sent a letter bomb to the Israeli ambassador to London in January; the Egyptian Revolutionary Organization that from out 1984-1986 carried out attacks against U.S. and Israeli targets; and the Nasserite Organization, which had attacked British and American targets in 1988. 

June 12, 1989, Bosphorus Straits, Turkey. A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff. The explosion caused extensive damage but no casualties. An organization previously unknown, the Warriors of the June 16th Movement, claimed responsibility for the attack. 

July 6, 1989, Between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, Israel. A member of  Palestinian Islamic Jihad seized control of the steering wheel of a crowded bus enroute from  Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and drove the bus off a cliff in the area of Kiryat Ye'arim. 16 civilians were killed, including two Canadians and one American. 

October 11, 1989, Izmir, Turkey. An explosive charge went off outside a U.S. military PX. Dev Sol was held responsible for the attack. 

February 7, 1991, Incirlik Air Base, Turkey. Dev Sol members shot and killed a U.S. civilian contractor as he was getting into his car at the Incirlik Air Base in Adana, Turkey. 

February 28, 1991, Izmir, Turkey. Two Dev Sol gunmen shot and wounded a U.S. Air Force officer as he entered his residence in Izmir. 

March 28, 1991, Jubial, Saudi Arabia. Three U.S. marines were shot at and injured by an unknown terrorist while driving near Camp Three, Jubial. No organization claimed responsibility for the attack. 

October 28, 1991, Ankara, Turkey. Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack. The Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. 

October 28, 1991, Istanbul, Turkey. Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul. Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. 

November 8, 1991, Beirut, Lebanon. A 100-kg car bomb destroyed the administration building of the American University in Beirut, killing one person and wounding at least a dozen. 

October 12, 1992, Umm Qasr, Iraq. A U.S. soldier serving with the United Nations was stabbed and wounded near the port of Umm Qasr. No organization claimed responsibility for the attack. 

January 25, 1993, Virginia, United States. A Pakistani gunman opened fire on Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) employees standing outside of the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and three others wounded. The assailant was never caught and reportedly fled to Pakistan. 

February 26, 1993, Cairo, Egypt. A bomb exploded inside a café in downtown Cairo killing three. Among the 18 wounded were two U.S. citizens. No one claimed responsibility for the attack. 

February 26, 1993, New York, United States. A massive van bomb exploded in an underground parking garage below the World Trade Center in New York City, killing six and wounding 1,042. Four Islamist activists were responsible for the attack. Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the operation's alleged mastermind, escaped but was later arrested in Pakistan and extradited to the United States. Abd al-Hakim Murad, another suspected conspirator, was arrested by local authorities in the Philippines and handed over to the United States. The two, along with two other terrorists, were tried in the U.S. and sentenced to 240 years. 

April 14, 1993, Kuwait. The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack two months later on the Iraqi capital, Baghdad. 

July 5, 1993, Southeast Turkey. In eight separate incidents, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) kidnapped a total of 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey. The hostages, including U.S. citizen Colin Patrick Starger, were released unharmed after spending several weeks in captivity. 

December 1, 1993, north of Jerusalem, West Bank. Yitzhak Weinstock, 19, whose family came from Los Angeles, CA, was killed in a drive-by shooting. Hamas took responsibility for the attack

Sometime in 1994: near Atzmona, Gaza. U.S. citizen Mrs. Sheila Deutsch of Brooklyn, NY injured in a shooting attack. 

October 9, 1994. Nachshon Wachsman, 19, whose family came from New York, was kidnapped and then murdered by Hamas. 

October 9, 1994: Jerusalem, Israel. Shooting attack on cafe-goers in Jerusalem. U.S. citizens Scot Doberstein and Eric Goldberg were injured. 

March 8, 1995, Karachi, Pakistan. Two unidentified gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles opened fire on a U.S. Consulate van in Karachi, killing two U.S. diplomats, Jacqueline Keys Van Landingham and Gary C. Durell, and wounding a third, Mark McCloy.

April 9, 1995, Kfar Darom and Netzarim, Gaza Strip. Two suicide attacks were carried out within a few hours of each other in Jewish  settlements in the  Gaza Strip. In the first attack a suicide bomber crashed an explosive-rigged van into an Israeli bus in Netzarim, killing eight including U.S. citizen Alisa Flatow, 20, of West Orange, NJ. More than 30 others were injured. In the second attack, a suicide bomber detonated a car bomb in the midst of a convoy of cars in Kfar Darom, injuring 12. The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) Shaqaqi Faction claimed responsibility for the attacks. U.S. citizens Chava Levine and Seth Klein were injured. 

June 15, 1995: Jerusalem, Israel. U.S. citizen Howard Tavens of Cleveland, OH was injured in a stabbing attack.

July 4, 1995, Kashmir, India. In Kashmir, a previously unknown militant group, Al-Faran, with suspected links to a Kashmiri separatist group in Pakistan, took hostage six tourists, including two U.S. citizens. They demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. One of the U.S. citizens escaped on July 8, while on August 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found along with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group's demands were not met. The Indian Government refused. Both Indian and American authorities believe the rest of the hostages were most likely killed in 1996 by their jailers. 

August 1995, Istanbul, Turkey.  A bombing of Istanbul's popular Taksim Square injured two U.S. citizens. This attack was part of a three-year-old attempt by the PKK to drive foreign tourists away from Turkey by striking at tourist sites. 

August 21, 1995, Jerusalem, Israel. A bus bombing in Jerusalem by the  Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) killed four, including American Joan Davenny of New Haven, CT, and wounded more than 100. U.S. citizens injured: Chanoch Bleier, Judith Shulewitz, Bernard Batta.

September 9, 1995. Ma'ale Michmash. American killed: Unborn child of Mrs. Mara Frey of Chicago. Mara Frey was injured. 

November 9, 1995, Algiers, Algeria. Islamic extremists set fire to a warehouse belonging to the U.S. Embassy, threatened the Algerian security guard because he was working for the United States, and demanded to know whether any U.S. citizens were present. The Armed Islamic Group (GIA) probably carried out the attacks. The group had threatened to strike other foreign targets and especially U.S. objectives in Algeria, and the attack's style was similar to past GIA operations against foreign facilities. 

November 13, 1995, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. A car bomb exploded in the parking lot outside of the Riyadh headquarters of the Office of the Program Manager/Saudi Arabian National Guard, killing seven persons, five of them U.S. citizens, and wounding 42. The blast severely damaged the three-story building, which houses a U.S. military advisory group, and several neighboring office buildings. Three groups -- the Islamic Movement for Change, the Tigers of the Gulf, and the Combatant Partisans of God -- claimed responsibility for the attack. 

February 25, 1996, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them three other U.S. citizens. Hamas claimed responsibility for the bombing. U. S. citizens killed: Sara Duker, of Teaneck, NJ, Matthew Eisenfeld of West Hartford, CT, Ira Weinstein of Bronx, NY. U.S. citizens injured: Beatrice Kramer, Steven Lapides, and Leah Stein Mousa.

March 4, 1996, Tel Aviv, Israel.  A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device outside the Dizengoff Center,  Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall, killing 20 persons and injuring 75 others, including two U.S. citizens. Both Hamas and the  Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing. U.S. citizens injured included Julie K. Negrin of Seattle, WA.

May 13, 1996, Beit-El, West Bank. Arab gunmen opened fire on a hitchhiking stand near Beit El, wounding three Israelis and killing David Boim, 17, an American-Israeli from New York. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, although either the Islamic Jihad or Hamas are suspected. U.S. citizens injured: Moshe Greenbaum, 17.

June 9, 1996, outside Zekharya. Yaron Ungar, an American-Israeli, and his Israeli wife were killed in a drive-by shooting near their West Bank home. The PFLP is suspected. 

June 25, 1996, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the U.S. military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack. In June 2001, a U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, identified Saudi  Hizballah as the party responsible for the attack. The court indicated that the members of the organization, banned from Saudi Arabia, "frequently met and were trained in Lebanon, Syria, or Iran" with Libyan help. 

August 17, 1996, Mapourdit, Sudan. Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) rebels kidnapped six missionaries in Mapourdit, including a U.S citizen. The SPLA released the hostages on August 28. 

November 1, 1996, Sudan. A breakaway group of the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three workers of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), including one U.S citizen. The rebels released the hostages on December 9 in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey of their camp. 

December 3, 1996, Paris, France. A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected. 

January 2, 1997, Major cities worldwide, United States. A series of letter bombs with Alexandria, Egypt postmarks were discovered at Al-Hayat newspaper bureaus in Washington, DC, New York, London, and Riyadh. Three similar devices, also postmarked in Egypt, were found at a prison facility in Leavenworth, Kansas. Bomb disposal experts defused all the devices, but one detonated at the Al-Hayat newspaper office in London, injuring two security guards and causing minor damage. 

February 23, 1997, New York, United States. A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine." 

July 30, 1997, Jerusalem, Israel. Two bombs detonated in  Jerusalem's  Mahane Yehuda market, killing 15 persons, including a U.S. citizen and wounding 168 others, among them two U.S. citizens. The Izz-el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Mrs. Leah Stern of Passaic, NJ. U.S. citizens injured: Dov Dalin. 

September 4, 1997: Jerusalem, Israel. Bombing on Ben-Yehuda Street, Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Yael Botwin, 14, of Los Angeles and Jerusalem. U.S. citizens injured: Diana Campuzano of New York, Abraham Mendelson of Los Angeles, CA, Greg Salzman of New Jersey, Stuart E. Hersh of Kiryat Arba, Israel, Michael Alzer, Abraham Elias, David Keinan, Daniel Miller of Boca Raton, FL, Noam Rozenman of Jerusalem, Jenny (Yocheved) Rubin of Los Angeles, CA. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 30, 1997, Sanaa, Yemen.  Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. The hostage was released on November 27. 

November 12, 1997, Karachi, Pakistan. Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum and their Pakistani driver as they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. Two groups claimed responsibility -- the Islamic Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council and the Aimal Secret Committee, also known as the Aimal Khufia Action Committee. 

November 25, 1997, Aden, Yemen.  Yemenite tribesmen kidnapped a U.S citizen, two Italians, and two unspecified Westerners near Aden to protest the eviction of a tribe member from his home. The kidnappers released the five hostages on November 27. 

February 6, 1998, Jerusalem, Israel. Stabbing in Jerusalem. U.S. Citizen Yosef Lepon, 17 injured.

April 19, 1998, Maon, Israel. Dov Driben, a 28-year-old American-Israeli farmer was killed by terrorists near the West Bank town of Maon. One of his assailants, Issa Debavseh, a member of Fatah Tanzim, was killed on November 7, 2001, by the IDF after being on their wanted list for the murder. 

June 21, 1998, Beirut, Lebanon.  Two hand-grenades were thrown at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. No casualties were reported. 

June 21, 1998, Beirut, Lebanon. Three rocket-propelled grenades attached to a crude detonator exploded near the U.S. Embassy compound in Beirut, causing no casualties and little damage. August 7, 1998, Nairobi, Kenya. A car bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi. The attack killed a total of 292, including 12 U.S. citizens, and injured over 5,000, among them six Americans. The perpetrators belonged to  al-Qaida, Usama bin Ladin's network. 

August 7, 1998, Dar es Sala'am, Tanzania. A car bomb exploded outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Sala'am, killing 11 and injuring 86. Osama bin Laden's organization al-Qaida claimed responsibility for the attack. Two suspects were arrested. 

November 21, 1998, Teheran, Iran. Members of Fedayeen Islam, shouting anti-American slogans and wielding stones and iron rods, attacked a group of American tourists in Tehran. Some of the tourists suffered minor injuries from flying glass. 

December 28, 1998, Mawdiyah, Yemen. Sixteen tourists--12 Britons, two Americans and two Australians--were taken hostage in the largest kidnapping in Yemen's recent history. The tourists were seized in the Abyan province (some 175 miles south of Sanaa the capital). One Briton and a Yemeni guide escaped, while the rest were taken to city of Mawdiyah. Four hostages were killed when troops closed in and two were wounded, including an American woman. The kidnappers, members of the Islamic Army of Aden-Abyan, an offshoot of Al-Jihad, had demanded the release from jail of their leader, Saleh Haidara al-Atwi. 

October 31, 1999, Nantucket, Massachusetts, United States. EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans. Although it is not precisely clear what happened, evidence indicated that an Egyptian pilot crashed the plane for personal or political reasons. 

November 4, 1999, Athens, Greece. A group protesting President Clinton's visit to Greece hid a gas bomb at an American car dealership in Athens. Two cars were destroyed and several others damaged. Anti-State Action claimed responsibility for the attack, but the November 17 group was also suspected. 

November 12, 1999, Islamabad, Pakistan. Six rockets were fired at the U.S. Information Services cultural center and United Nations offices in Islamabad, injuring a Pakistani guard. 

September 29, 2000. near Jerusalem Israel. Attack on motorists. U.S. citizens injured: Avi Herman of Teaneck, NJ, Naomi Herman of Teaneck, NJ.

September 29, 2000, Jerusalem, Israel. Attack on taxi passengers. U.S. citizens injured: Tuvia Grossman of Chicago, Todd Pollack of Norfolk, VA, Andrew Feibusch of New York.

October 4, 2000, near Bethlehem, West Bank. U.S. citizens injured: An unidentified American tourist.

October 5, 2000: near Jerusalem, Israel. Attack on a motorist. U.S. citizens injured: Rabbi Chaim Brovender of Brooklyn.

October 8, 2000, Nablus, West Bank. The bullet-ridden body of Rabbi Hillel Lieberman, a U.S. citizen from Brooklyn living in the Jewish settlement of Elon Moreh, was found at the entrance to the West Bank town of Nablus. Lieberman had headed there after hearing that Palestinians had desecrated the religious site, Joseph's Tomb. No organization claimed responsibility for the murder. 

October 12, 2000, Aden Harbor, Yemen. A suicide squad rammed the warship the U.S.S. Cole with an explosives-laden boat killing 13 American sailors and injuring 33. The attack was likely by Osama bin Ladin's  al-Qaida organization. 

October 30, 2000, Jerusalem, Israel. Gunmen killed Eish Kodesh Gilmor, a 25-year-old American-Israeli on duty as a security guard at the National Insurance Institute in Jerusalem. The "Martyrs of the Al-Aqsa Intifada," a group linked to Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. Gilmor's family filed a suit in the U.S. District Court in Washington against the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, Chairman Yasser Arafat and members of Force 17, as being responsible for the attack. 

December 31, 2000, Ofra, Israel. Rabbi Binyamin Kahane, 34, and his wife, Talia Hertzlich Kahane, both formerly of Brooklyn, NY were killed in a drive-by shooting. Their children, Yehudit Leah Kahane, Bitya Kahane, Tzivya Kahane, Rivka Kahane, and Shlomtsion Kahane, were injured in the attack. 

March 28, 2001, Neve Yamin. Bombing at bus stop. U.S. citizens injured: Netanel Herskovitz, 15, formerly of Hempstead, NY. 

May 9, 2001, Tekoa, West Bank. Kobi Mandell, 13, of Silver Spring, MD, an American-Israeli, was found stoned to death along with a friend in a cave near the Jewish  settlement of Tekoa. Two organizations, the Islamic Jihad and  Hizballah-Palestine, claimed responsibility for the attack. 

May 29, 2001, Gush Etzion, West Bank. The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for a drive-by shooting of six in the West Bank that killed two American-Israeli citizens, Samuel Berg, and his mother, Sarah Blaustein. U.S. citizens injured: Norman Blaustein of Lawrence, NY.

July 19, 2001, Hebron, West Bank. Shooting attack. U.S. citizens injured: An unidentified woman from Brooklyn, NY.

August 9, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bombing at Sbarro's, a pizzeria situated in one of the busiest areas of downtown Jerusalem, killed 15 people and wounded more than 90. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Judith L. Greenbaum, 31, of New Jersey and California, Malka Roth, 15, whose family was from New York. U.S. citizens injured: David Danzig, 21, of Wynnewood, PA, Matthew P. Gordon, 25, of New York, Joanne (Chana) Nachenberg, 31, Sara Shifra Nachenberg, 2. 

August 18, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. Shooting at a bus. U.S. citizen injured: Andrew Feibusch of New York. 

August 27, 2001, near Roglit, Israel. Shooting attack. U.S. citizen injured: Ben Dansker.


American Victims of Mideast Terrorist Attacks


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Phone,
Vic loves the US and hates Israel; no facts will change that.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Phone,
> Vic loves the US and hates Israel; no facts will change that.



Yes, I do love the USA.  More than any other country.

Someday you will feel the same way.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, it's cool as long as it doesn't happen on US soil.
> ...






 And you have had 2 lists of Americans targeted by Palestinian terrorists. And dent the evidence. Were you banned under your sunni man screen name then, did you claim racial discrimination ?


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## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


I already proved you are totally wrong about that.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> I already proved you are totally wrong about that.



Show us some examples of Americans who were targeted, for being American, by Palestinians.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > I already proved you are totally wrong about that.
> ...



You condone murder; that says enough.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > are you intentionally clueless?
> ...






Want to play semantics do we, then he was an American targeted by Palestinian terrorists because they only ever go for soft targets. The cowards wont go against soldiers unless they have women and children to act as human shields. 

 Now what about Bobby Kennedy assassinated by a palestinian  terrorist scum.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

victory67 said:


> roudy said:
> 
> 
> > victory67 said:
> ...







 bobby kennedy


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

victory67 said:


> indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > victory67 said:
> ...






 geneva conventions cover it all but you refuse to extend them to the joooos


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> You condone murder; that says enough.



I condone attacks upon military personnel.  That's it.

You however, like others here, have failed to even attempt to condemn frequent calls for ethnic cleansing against the non-Jews of the West Bank.

Your love of humanity is two faced.


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## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You condone murder; that says enough.
> ...



How does one react to people who blow themselves up in public places?


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Phone,
> ...




 so what about your lie that no American has been targeted by Palestinian terrorists when Bobby Kennedy was. Or are you going to LIE about that as well.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

victory67 said:


> roudy said:
> 
> 
> > i already proved you are totally wrong about that.
> ...





*bobby kennedy*


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> How does one react to people who blow themselves up in public places?



How many Arabs in the West Bank are suicide bombers?

And yet you think its ok to want to treat all of them like criminals.

Like I said, your love of humanity has two faces.


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## Phoenall (Feb 12, 2014)

victory67 said:


> indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > you condone murder; that says enough.
> ...





* you condone the murder of innocent children when you claim that palestinians only return fire.*


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## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Totally not.
> ...



Yes...taking a plunge into the conspiracy theory/racial stereotype pool is a major red flag


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## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

toastman said:


> I think anti - semites in Europe are just using this as an excuse to hate on the Jews



I agree - I think in those cases, the IP situation gives them an opportunity to "legitimize" their anti-semitism


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > I think anti - semites in Europe are just using this as an excuse to hate on the Jews
> ...



Yes, Jew haters will take advantage of certain events to fuel pre-existing hatred of Jews.  But I'm not talking about Neo-Nazis and KKK kinds of people.  Im talking about regular old moderate people that don't have strong opinions for or against Jews.  

It is these people that I believe who's ideas about Jews are negatively or positively affected by Israel's acts.   Just like how America's actions affects the attitude of folks who don't already love or hate the USA.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



She was American killed by Palestinians.

She was the American target.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You are condoning murder.
> ...



You're on the "three monkeys" NIMBY method.

Thing with people of your thinking is, it turns out to bite them in the ass one day.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > indeependent said:
> ...



If that's indeed the case, there is no point of arguing with this individual.


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## Lipush (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > How does one react to people who blow themselves up in public places?
> ...



_Is that an SAT question?_

None.

They aren't "suicide bombers" until they actually explode with the bomb.

And they don't explode in the WB, but in Israel.

So that's a stupid qestion


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## MHunterB (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



So you think the American people should be OK with Palestinians hijacking airplanes and killing American citizens?


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## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I don't think so.

I think most people (who don't already hold strong opinions) - seperate a nation from a religion and realize that Israel does not equal all Jewish people.

Although - I could be wrong.  Many people do not seperate Islam from the actions of terrorists.  

But I tend to think the underlying beliefs are already in place, even though dormant.  Anti-semitism often goes hand in hand with racism, xenophobia, anti-islamism, nativism and nationalistic movements.  I don't think Israel inspires those feelings, they are already there.


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## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Palestinians aren't America's enemy - terrorists are.  You do realize there are Jewish terrorist groups as well?


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## MHunterB (Feb 12, 2014)

One of the other hallmarks of the Jew-haters is that they will almost always accuse American Jews of being 'more loyal to Israel' ........  we've seen that right on this thread.

Variations on that 'theme' include assuming that any pro-Israeli poster is an Israeli themselves, or at least a Jew.   And making assertions that Americans are 'brainwashed' into supporting Israel....

The fact is, Israel is a close ally of the US and has been so for decades.  And the 'default' attitude towards allied nations is going to be positive.

And strangely enough, that bit o' filth appears to have gotten a pass from some purportedly more rational posters here.


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## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

*Folks please remember- IP is in Zone 2 - that means some flaming is ok, each post MUST contain content - and more than just a word or two.*


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

MHunterB said:


> One of the other hallmarks of the Jew-haters is that they will almost always accuse American Jews of being 'more loyal to Israel' ........  we've seen that right on this thread.
> 
> Variations on that 'theme' include assuming that any pro-Israeli poster is an Israeli themselves, or at least a Jew.   And making assertions that Americans are 'brainwashed' into supporting Israel....
> 
> ...



It is wrong to accuse all Jews of being more loyal to the Jewish State than to the USA.  Such an accusation is irrational and makes no sense.   

As far as Americans being brainwashed into supporting Israel more than they should, thats because they fail to receive information that would give them a better understanding of what's going on over there.  Perhaps they aren't "brainwashed" but they surely aren't exposed to all the information the should be.  Plus they constantly get only one side of the story.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Palestinians aren't America's enemy - terrorists are.  You do realize there are Jewish terrorist groups as well?



Several Jewish terror groups are registered with the State Department.  I think Kach, the JDL, and Kahane Chai are some of them.  Some more centered in The Jewish State.


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## toastman (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians aren't America's enemy - terrorists are.  You do realize there are Jewish terrorist groups as well?
> ...



LOL Let me know when these 'terrorist groups' launch a suicide bombing campaign on Palestinians


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Jewish groups have tried to launch terror attacks on Arabs in Israel.

Baruch Goldstein was a lone-Wolf terrorist who murdered many innocent non-Jews.


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## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Some of them have been responsible for some pretty bad crimes - JDL in particular (Jewish Defense League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) - I don't think a suicide bombing campaign is a prerequisite for terrorism


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## toastman (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


Wow, that's one guy ! 

For every 1 Israeli who you call a terrorist, there are 20 000 Palestinian terrorists


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## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > One of the other hallmarks of the Jew-haters is that they will almost always accuse American Jews of being 'more loyal to Israel' ........  we've seen that right on this thread.
> ...



Oh, I think Americans have a pretty good idea of what is going on there and in the rest of the Middle East, as well as Southeast Asia where even the Shia are leaving for Austrailia because they are tired of being suicide and car bombed by the Sunnis.  Imagine innocent Pakistani people were in a theater the other day just enjoying themselves when grenades were thrown in, killing several and wounding many.


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > are you intentionally clueless?
> ...



because he was in a wheelchair?  The fact is he was an american from NYC and he was singled out, shot in the head and thrown overboard wheelchair and all.  He was clearly no physical threat to the palestinians.  He was not Israeli, so why was a retired, disabled American celebrating his anniversary on a Mediterranean cruse with his wife that stopped on Egypt singled out by palestinians for death? because he wore glasses? because he was bald?

You lost this argument 15 yrs before Klinghoffer when Palestinians targeted the US embassy, hijacked american airplanes or kidnapped a U.S. military attaché...........

...but Klinghoffer was not targeted because he was american.


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## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> because he was in a wheelchair?  The fact is he was an american from NYC and he was singled out, shot in the head and thrown overboard wheelchair and all.  He was clearly no physical threat to the palestinians.  He was not Israeli, so why was a retired, disabled American celebrating his anniversary on a Mediterranean cruse with his wife that stopped on Egypt singled out by palestinians for death? because he wore glasses? because he was bald?
> 
> You lost this argument 15 yrs before Klinghoffer when Palestinians targeted the US embassy, hijacked american airplanes or kidnapped a U.S. military attaché...........
> 
> ...but Klinghoffer was not targeted because he was american.



He was targeted because he was a Jew, not because he was an American.

No Palestinian groups target Americans.


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## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > because he was in a wheelchair?  The fact is he was an american from NYC and he was singled out, shot in the head and thrown overboard wheelchair and all.  He was clearly no physical threat to the palestinians.  He was not Israeli, so why was a retired, disabled American celebrating his anniversary on a Mediterranean cruse with his wife that stopped on Egypt singled out by palestinians for death? because he wore glasses? because he was bald?
> ...



He carried an american passport.  He was american.  Do catholics carry a vatican passport?

He was jewish is not excuse.  He was american.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> He carried an american passport.  He was american.  Do catholics carry a vatican passport?
> 
> He was jewish is not excuse.  He was american.



He was killed because he was a Jew.  Not because he was an American.

If he was targeted just because he was an American, why didn't any of the other Americans become the target of the terrorists?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > How does one react to people who blow themselves up in public places?
> ...



That's a good question.
The problem lies in the fact that one is too many and way more than one is too many.
You would have to be blind to the mayhem of the Intifada as there were obviously many "innocent" West Bank Jordanians entering Israel every day to supposedly earn their daily bread and were more than willing to blow themselves up for Allah.
Such cannot be said for people of any other religion anywhere on earth.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



"are"?
Seriously?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians aren't America's enemy - terrorists are.  You do realize there are Jewish terrorist groups as well?
> ...



They still exist?
They probably have about 3 members and all they do is talk.
I knew some JDL guys back in the 80s and they were a bunch of punks who stupidly drove through Stop signs to prove their manhood.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > He carried an american passport.  He was american.  Do catholics carry a vatican passport?
> ...



"You kicked me out of my house!"
"I'm going to kill a member of your religion!"

Now apply this thought AND behavior to the post-2008 crash home fore-closures.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> That's a good question.
> The problem lies in the fact that one is too many and way more than one is too many.
> You would have to be blind to the mayhem of the Intifada as there were obviously many "innocent" West Bank Jordanians entering Israel every day to supposedly earn their daily bread and were more than willing to blow themselves up for Allah.
> Such cannot be said for people of any other religion anywhere on earth.



This is your justification for accepting war crimes against Arabs?

I wonder how such attitudes affect anti-Semitism.


----------



## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > That's a good question.
> ...




Strange how the majority of the people in the world are not so obsessed with tiny Israel, but they certainly are aware of the crimes being committed against innocent people for their religious beliefs by the Arabs.  Perhaps Victory just can't spare the time to see what is happening in the Middle East because all his waking hours seem to be focused on Israel and nothing else -- no matter how many tens of thousands of innocent people have been killed and are still being killed.  Maybe he doesn't think that killing people because of their religious beliefs is a crime.  Could be since we see how busy Muslims have been killing each other.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > That's a good question.
> ...



but you care not about war crimes against Israelis, or misplaced attacks on jews from elsewhere in the world.  You just contribute to the anti-semitism in the world and spout crimes against arabs.  what of crimes against arabs by other arabs?  Muslims against muslims?  Nations against nation in the middle east for over 1500 years?  But it is only crimes against "arabs" laid at the feet of all jews and at Israel alone.

That is called insanity.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> but you care not about war crimes against Israelis, or misplaced attacks on jews from elsewhere in the world.  You just contribute to the anti-semitism in the world and spout crimes against arabs.  what of crimes against arabs by other arabs?  Muslims against muslims?  Nations against nation in the middle east for over 1500 years?  But it is only crimes against "arabs" laid at the feet of all jews and at Israel alone.
> 
> That is called insanity.



FYI this is called the "Israel and Palestine" forum.


----------



## toastman (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > but you care not about war crimes against Israelis, or misplaced attacks on jews from elsewhere in the world.  You just contribute to the anti-semitism in the world and spout crimes against arabs.  what of crimes against arabs by other arabs?  Muslims against muslims?  Nations against nation in the middle east for over 1500 years?  But it is only crimes against "arabs" laid at the feet of all jews and at Israel alone.
> ...



FYI, you already managed to make well over 400 posts in the 6 days that you've been here.
You are averaging 90 posts a day !!!! Take it easy !!!


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > but you care not about war crimes against Israelis, or misplaced attacks on jews from elsewhere in the world.  You just contribute to the anti-semitism in the world and spout crimes against arabs.  what of crimes against arabs by other arabs?  Muslims against muslims?  Nations against nation in the middle east for over 1500 years?  But it is only crimes against "arabs" laid at the feet of all jews and at Israel alone.
> ...



Which means the only topics that should be discussed are about Israel and Palestine, not other Arab nations, Muslim relations, and other unrelated stuff.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Palestinian terrorism and blaming Israel for war crimes was being discussed, but to put matters in context arabs have committed war crimes by preventing the palestinian state in the first place and keeping the palestinians are permanent refugees instead of absorbing them.  Syria has killed more palestinians than Israel, Jordan and Egypt combined.  Arab conquered the land, stealing it from it's former owners.  Those arabs are now in part the palestinians, though at least those in gaza are more closely related to present day egyptians and saudi within the last century.
It is all related, all relevant to the Israeli palestinian situation.

Do you want to try and go back to explaining palestinians never attacking americans, except disabed retired jews on a vacation cruse?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > He carried an american passport.  He was american.  Do catholics carry a vatican passport?
> ...


Who could possibly know what goes on in the mind of a mad dog Palisimian?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Palestinian terrorism and blaming Israel for war crimes was being discussed, but to put matters in context arabs have committed war crimes by preventing the palestinian state in the first place and keeping the palestinians are permanent refugees instead of absorbing them.  Syria has killed more palestinians than Israel, Jordan and Egypt combined.  Arab conquered the land, stealing it from it's former owners.  Those arabs are now in part the palestinians, though at least those in gaza are more closely related to present day egyptians and saudi within the last century.
> It is all related, all relevant to the Israeli palestinian situation.
> 
> Do you want to try and go back to explaining palestinians never attacking americans, except disabed retired jews on a vacation cruse?



No land is stolen in a war.  It is all conquered.

You can only steal land from people after a war is over and an Armistice has been signed.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Who could possibly know what goes on in the mind of a mad dog Palisimian?



How come racism against non-Jews is tolerated in this forum?

Considering this thread is about how Israel and Israelis can do and says things that can increase anti-Semitism, you really do look like an ass.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Who could possibly know what goes on in the mind of a mad dog Palisimian?
> ...


What racism, Buttercup?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Who could possibly know what goes on in the mind of a mad dog Palisimian?
> ...


This thread was started by you with an article about a EU officials statements and immediately you advanced your own opinion in order to start an argoment and that is called trolling.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I seriously doubt you knew any "JDL" guys then .  They still exist and do far more then talk.  They operate in a variety of countries and have been responsible for killings, bombings and arsons.  According to Jewish Defense League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, as of 2013, there have been least 115 violent incidents were attributed to LDJ, their French group.  They're terrorists, of international caliber.  Not a collection of disgruntled homies.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> What racism, Buttercup?



"Palisimians"????

Seriously?   If that's not racism than I guess you don't mind folks being called "Dirty Jew" and "Filthy ****"?

I didn't think so.  Be serious or move on.


----------



## MHunterB (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



That is a lie so palpable, it discredits whatever the poster might assert afterwards......


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

MHunterB said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Let me be a little clearer for you and some others who claim to not understand.

No Palestinan group has ever planned a terror operation that specifically and purposefully  targeted an American target, be it American civilians or American property.


----------



## MHunterB (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Then why not mention those 'Jewish groups' instead?  You've just undercut your own argument.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > What racism, Buttercup?
> ...


Please, Tinkerbell, I am currently studying Charles Darwin's theory and I tend to believe man sprang from the ape. Therefore Palisimian is correct.  And if you want to call people Filthy Jews and Dirty Kikes, be my guest. But you better have your track shoes on.


----------



## MHunterB (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



I wouldn't be so certain of that, not at all:  in the case of the university cafeteria bombing, the time and location were chosen specifically in order to ensure deaths of Americans.

Of course it's not possible to prove a negative....


----------



## MHunterB (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



If the purportedly 'anti-racist' poster were truly so against such epithets,  I can't imagine he'd be using them even that 'Nixonian' a context.......  I'm just not feeling the universal concern there.

Though it is true that such epithets undercut one's arguments - for the most part the 'pro-Palestinian' posters around here determinedly ignore any point which anyone 'on the other side' brings up.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Please, Tinkerbell, I am currently studying Charles Darwin's theory and I tend to believe man sprang from the ape. Therefore Palisimian is correct.  And if you want to call people Filthy Jews and Dirty Kikes, be my guest. But you better have your track shoes on.



Never in my life would I ever call a Jew such a horrible term.  I don't believe in using epithets as it would lower me.  

Unlike you, I am not a hateful racist.  Its a shame that people here tolerate your racism.  Its just this kind of attitude that makes people hate Israel.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinian terrorism and blaming Israel for war crimes was being discussed, but to put matters in context arabs have committed war crimes by preventing the palestinian state in the first place and keeping the palestinians are permanent refugees instead of absorbing them.  Syria has killed more palestinians than Israel, Jordan and Egypt combined.  Arab conquered the land, stealing it from it's former owners.  Those arabs are now in part the palestinians, though at least those in gaza are more closely related to present day egyptians and saudi within the last century.
> ...




So...gaza, sinai, golan and the WB are Israeli's by right of conquest?  So Israelis can develop and cultivate wherever they want?  Israel should control all the way to Damascus then as well?  No need to return anything since it was not stolen but rather conquered and thus legally acquired?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> So...gaza, sinai, golan and the WB are Israeli's by right of conquest?  So Israelis can develop and cultivate wherever they want?  Israel should control all the way to Damascus then as well?  No need to return anything since it was not stolen but rather conquered and thus legally acquired?



When it comes to issues like this its best to stick to the "Bible", also known as International Law.

International law says you can legally do whatever you want with land conquered in a war once a peace treaty is finalized between you and the other party or until the UN says the land is now yours.  

Till then the land is Occupied Territory and cannot be settled or annexed.

But Israel has gone further and given citizenship to all of its Arabs, and then gone ahead and stole the land of these citizens.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Please, Tinkerbell, I am currently studying Charles Darwin's theory and I tend to believe man sprang from the ape. Therefore Palisimian is correct.  And if you want to call people Filthy Jews and Dirty Kikes, be my guest. But you better have your track shoes on.
> ...


Don't worry, Ahmed. I actually love the sweaty little bastards. After all, they're Caucasians just like me.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Don't worry, Ahmed. I actually love the sweaty little bastards. After all, they're Caucasians just like me.



Are your getting paid to make Israelophiles look like racists?  You sure do seem like you're trying really hard.

Its attitudes like yours that increases anti-Semitism.  I hope you realize that your words can lead to violence against Jews.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > So...gaza, sinai, golan and the WB are Israeli's by right of conquest?  So Israelis can develop and cultivate wherever they want?  Israel should control all the way to Damascus then as well?  No need to return anything since it was not stolen but rather conquered and thus legally acquired?
> ...



Jordan and Egypt give Israel the WB and G in exchange for peace.... so Israel can do what it wants with the land since no palestinian state existed at the time.

No wall problem, no settlement problem and Israel can go in as a police force and destroy or remove all weapons held by palestinians and any state that allows palestinians in their land to use weapons against Israel are committing an act of war and Israel is legally obligated to respond with force to protect it's own people.

Well then, Israel is committing no war crimes, only arab states that allow palestinian activity are.  So glad you have thus spoken.

So, now about those palestinians attacking americans?????


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Jordan and Egypt give Israel the WB and G in exchange for peace.... so Israel can do what it wants with the land since no palestinian state existed at the time.
> 
> No wall problem, no settlement problem and Israel can go in as a police force and destroy or remove all weapons held by palestinians and any state that allows palestinians in their land to use weapons against Israel are committing an act of war and Israel is legally obligated to respond with force to protect it's own people.
> 
> ...



Jordan annexed the West Bank.  This was a war crime.  They were only supposed to Occupy it.

They were only two votes shy of being kicked out of the Arab League for this.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Don't worry, Ahmed. I actually love the sweaty little bastards. After all, they're Caucasians just like me.
> ...


What do I, an outcast, reformed American Christian say about Palisimian's that has anything to do with Israel, Jews or Zionists? You are mistaken, Bubbalie.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


Another lie.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...


"All I know is what I read in Wikipedia".
~~Victory67


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



targeting the beirut embassy is targeting americans and american property.  US airplanes being hijacked?  Kidnapping american envoys?

Going to try and say it was only jews that were targeted?  I knew very well the whys arafat gave for targeting americans.  He could have targeted any nation but he chose specifically to target americans for the most part.  No american in Beirut was safe, even with military and international protection I was targeted.  Palestinians used and killed for strategy, profit and publicity.  Loyalty was a weapon for them to use and abuse, it did not much matter what nationality, but americans made for more press and higher payouts.

What do you think would get more headlines, throwing an american off a cruse ship or throwing a Greek over board?  What gets more attention, blowing up a US embassy or an Indian embassy?  But no palestinian would target americans for any reason....except if they were jews.


----------



## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Aris, I was just reading an interesting article about a group which sues these terrorists and their backers.  They appear to have won several cases which have cost the terrorists and their backers quite a bit of money.

The Woman Who Makes the Jihadis Squirm - The Tower - The Tower


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> What do I, an outcast, reformed American Christian say about Palisimian's that has anything to do with Israel, Jews or Zionists? You are mistaken, Bubbalie.



You should understand that your hatred and your racism leads to dead Jews.  Neo-Nazis feed off of your hate and use it to convince others to hurt and kill Jews.  Maybe not in the USA but certainly in France, Russia, Germany, Britain, and Hungary.

Just as racist Israeli policies increase hatred of Jews.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > What do I, an outcast, reformed American Christian say about Palisimian's that has anything to do with Israel, Jews or Zionists? You are mistaken, Bubbalie.
> ...



So Hitler was reacting to Israel?
The Spanish Inquisition, which wasn't much of a delight to ANYONE, was a reaction to Israel?
Do you reside in an alternate time-line?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> So Hitler was reacting to Israel?
> The Spanish Inquisition, which wasn't much of a delight to ANYONE, was a reaction to Israel?
> Do you reside in an alternate time-line?



How could Hitler react to something that had yet to exist?  What a dumbass question from such a dumbass.  

The Spanish Inquisition?  Seriously?

Keep telling yourself that nothing Israel does could ever influence anti-Semitism around the world.

Just be aware that when Israel commits crimes against non-Jews, Jews around the world suffer & die.


----------



## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > What do I, an outcast, reformed American Christian say about Palisimian's that has anything to do with Israel, Jews or Zionists? You are mistaken, Bubbalie.
> ...



Meanwhile, of course, the hatred by the Muslims of Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and even Muslims of different sects lead to a lot of dead people in the world today.  Naturally, Victory closes his eyes to this because he feels it is more important to focus solely on Israel.  Maybe Victory doesn't think that these Muslims killing innocent others don't have derogatory terms for them.  Speaking of NeoNazis, there was once an article in the newspaper entitled East Meets West.  The journalist living in Germany at the time was writing about the NeoNazis and the Palestinians joining up against Israel in that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing.


----------



## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > So Hitler was reacting to Israel?
> ...



Since the Muslims nowadays are killing many Christians, such as those in Egypt and Syria, will the Muslims living in Christian counries suffer for this?  If not, why not?


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...




He must


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > What do I, an outcast, reformed American Christian say about Palisimian's that has anything to do with Israel, Jews or Zionists? You are mistaken, Bubbalie.
> ...


I don't hate and not a racist. I'm just your neighborhood provocateur. When someone says they're gonna do this or gonna do that, why, I just want them to put up or shut up.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > So Hitler was reacting to Israel?
> ...



ad hominem...I win.

You keep insisting that anti-Semitism is some NEW phenomenon; it isn't.
It's ALWAYS been the rage since Isaac.
That, of course, is presuming you know any history that doesn't come from some anti-Israel site.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> I don't hate and not a racist. I'm just your neighborhood provocateur. When someone says they're gonna do this or gonna do that, why, I just want them to put up or shut up.



You have made vile racist comments about Arabs.  Such attitudes increase anti-Semitism and lead to dead and injured Jews.

Want to find one of the sources for increased anti-Semitism around the world?  Read your posts and look in the mirror.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> ad hominem...I win.
> 
> You keep insisting that anti0Semitism is some NEW phenomenon; it isn't.
> It's ALWAYS been the rage since Isaac.
> That, of course, is presuming you know any history that doesn't come from some anti-Israel site.



Anti-Semitism is new?  Hardly.

But only a liar or a fool thinks crimes committed by Israel doesn't increase hatred of Jews.

Israel is the Jewish State and when they commit a crime, people around the world look to their neighbor Jew to take out their anger.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > I don't hate and not a racist. I'm just your neighborhood provocateur. When someone says they're gonna do this or gonna do that, why, I just want them to put up or shut up.
> ...



Two things happen when Jews take sh!t.
[1] The people that gave them sh!t wind up with broken economies.
and/or
[2] The Jews get Israel back.

Take your pick...


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



That's all very pretty but you and others need to grasp that when Israel commits crimes and when its defenders call for ethnic cleansing and express racism against non-Jews, there are consequences.  These consequences include dead Jews in Russia, France, Germany, and Hungary.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > I don't hate and not a racist. I'm just your neighborhood provocateur. When someone says they're gonna do this or gonna do that, why, I just want them to put up or shut up.
> ...


What racist comments have I, a Caucasian, made toward Ayrabs, also Caucasian? Be specific, Kitten.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Excellent!  Bring it on.
Of course this is coming from a guy whose eternal fantasy is that Israel lost the Six Day War.


----------



## Sally (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



I don't think Victory realized that when Muslims murder Christians all over the place, the other Christians are not very happy about this.  In fact, when the Muslim immigrants to Europe act up, the indigenous Europeans are not too happy with them. Maybe he should get away from his computer for a few hours, and if he isn't posting from Ramallah or Gaza, perhaps he can walk the streets in America and ask the Americans walking by what they think about the Muslims and what they think about the Jews.  It might be a real eye opener for him.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 12, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Ideologues never see the big picture.
Islam is conquering Europe via economic breakdown.
They move in and live on welfare.
But darn those Moslems are true to their beliefs as taught to them by their Mullahs.
I give them credit for that.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


Still waiting to find out what were the causes for anti semitism pre 1948 Israel. 

And are Jews getting killed more, or less than when Israel was re-established in 1948. 

The answer is obvious. Had there not been an Israel, there would have been at least another two more Holocausts,  genocides, or pogroms on Jews by now.

Never again means never again.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


The name should be changed to HumiliatingDefeat1967, because that's exactly what happened to the Arabs.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > What do I, an outcast, reformed American Christian say about Palisimian's that has anything to do with Israel, Jews or Zionists? You are mistaken, Bubbalie.
> ...


Oh but you're soooo concerned about the welfare of Jews, aren't you? We truly believe you are!


----------



## Roudy (Feb 12, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Yeah, that's why the Arabs are still whining. They want the land they lost back as a result of the "victory" in 1967, when it was five to one against Israel. 

Here's to more Arab victories!


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


But all the Ayrab countries held big victory parades, passed out medals and promotions. Are you sure they didn't win the war?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...


Well their LEADERS were declaring "victory over the Jews" on their national radio and TV broadcasts. Meanwhile, their SOLDIERS were kissing Israeli soldiers' boots in the Sinai Desert, while begging for mercy.  So it was a little country, a little rock and roll.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > How does one react to people who blow themselves up in public places?
> ...






How many are supporters and defenders of terrorism, which shows that the vast majority are criminals.
 This shows that your JEW HATRED has taken control of your life


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...






Here are the words of a very enlightened muslim

 Not all muslims are terrorists but I am ashamed to say that nearly all terrorists are muslims.  

 And a recent European poll puts the numbers of defenders and supporters of Islamic terrorism amongst the muslims at 38% of the full muslim population. Does not sound like many until you do the number crunching and realise that the muslim population is mainly children under the age of 14. And the muslim family unit is an average of 7, unlike the western ideal of 4.1.  So taking the adult males only which are the predominant terrorists it shows that all are defenders and supporters of Islamic terrorism, along with the adult female muslims and a further 10% of the remaining population also defend and support terrorism. 

 This is like saying that 80% of all Americans support and defend the KKK terrorists.


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## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

MHunterB said:


> One of the other hallmarks of the Jew-haters is that they will almost always accuse American Jews of being 'more loyal to Israel' ........  we've seen that right on this thread.
> 
> Variations on that 'theme' include assuming that any pro-Israeli poster is an Israeli themselves, or at least a Jew.   And making assertions that Americans are 'brainwashed' into supporting Israel....
> 
> ...






I can only talk about the situation in Britain in regards to this but the vast majority of muslims have dual or triple nationality. This has been proven time after time when they travel abroad to train or fight  against NATO troops in Iraq and afgahnistan. The Jews I know do not have Israeli citizenship as that means they have to live in Israel or lose the benefits.

I hope this helps dispel the many islamonazi "blood libels" about Jews with dual nationality


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > One of the other hallmarks of the Jew-haters is that they will almost always accuse American Jews of being 'more loyal to Israel' ........  we've seen that right on this thread.
> ...


I was in Britain and several European countries over the summer. 

The situation with the Muslim invasion is disgusting, and the people are not happy about it at all.


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## Delta4Embassy (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Criticism of Israeli policies is criticisms of a secular government. Not criticism of Judaism. Thus not anti-semitism as usually defined. But playing armchair quarterback not living in Israel, nor even being Jewish is tiresome. If you don't live in daily fear of a suicide bomber, or rocket landing in your living room you really don't have anything to say about what Israel does to ensure its' own survival.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



People usually aren't happy with "foreigners" and "outsiders" and any group that isn't percieved to fit the majority culture.  Why do you think groups like KKK or EDL and tons of others still thrive?  Why do you think each wave of immigrants has been met with hostility, stereotypes and discrimmination?  Nothing really changes.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



People do it all the time with conflicts all over the world.  Why does being or not being Jewish have one a greater or lesser right to have an opinion regarding Israel?  Should we then state that hearing the constant bashing of Palestinians from non-Palestinians gets tiresome? That if you don't live under an occupation and your children don't face military justice for any misdeed - you really don't have anything to say about what the Palestinians do to gain self-determination?


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## Delta4Embassy (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



And I'm sure all the people who Britain invaded were just pleased beyond words when their countries became British possessions. Don't see countries who never tried empire suffering from this, just the ones who tried, or are trying to take over the world.


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Oh please you have no idea what you are talking about, as usual. Burka clad women and their male masters all over the place, "no go neighborhoods" where the Brits are scared to enter. Terrorism threats. Shariah law problems. This is not an "anti immigration" issue.


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


So you are admitting this is an invasion just like the British empire of the past then. 

And yes, there are are many other countries such as Lebanon that weren't colonialists that fell to the Muslim invasion.


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## Delta4Embassy (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yes, but that doesn't make it right. Perhaps if uninvolved parties quit using other peoples' conflicts as their proxies there wouldn't be so many. Other than for personal amusement, if you're uninvolved in something why make it your business in the first place? If not Israeli or Palestinian, Jewish or Muslim, and you're sitting safe and sound thousands of miles away not suffering from their woes, telling either side how they should be is ridiculous.


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## Delta4Embassy (Feb 13, 2014)

Israel hasn't enjoyed a single year of peace since 1947. Maybe if the whole world wasn't involved in the goings on there we could get together with our opposition and settle things without shouts from the cheap seats messing things up. All I'm saying. It's like a schoolyard fight, both sides face each other down, but are reluctant to throw the first blow not wanting tog et hit back. But the onlookers' who wont suffer from punches to the face taunt and jeer both wanting to see them fight.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It is an anti-immigration issue, and it's as old as the human race.  Every major immigration wave has been met with the same type of rhetoric, conspiracy-theory logic, stereotypes, and hostility.  The difference now is disinformation can be rapidly spread as "truth" in a way never before known.  Poll after poll, study after study has been posted that shows the vast majority of Britain's muslim immigrants are well integrated, less likely to support violence than their native compatriots, and do not support sharia as the "law of the land" - but all it takes is the extreme examples and exceptions to generate the hate rhetoric.  Again - that's why groups like the KKK and the EDL find a sympathetic audience.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

This isn't about right or wrong, just or unjust.  Its about reality.

And the reality is that racist and illegal policies by Israel pours fuel on the fire of anti-Semitism around the world.

Racist and fascist statements by Zionists in Israel and around the world fuels anti-Semitism.

When Israel does something racist, when a supporter does something racist or says something racist and a Neo-Nazi acts upon those deeds and kills a Jew somewhere around the world, Israel or the supporter shares the blood on their hands.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Israel hasn't enjoyed a single year of peace since 1947. Maybe if the whole world wasn't involved in the goings on there we could get together with our opposition and settle things without shouts from the cheap seats messing things up. All I'm saying. *It's like a schoolyard fight, both sides face each other down, but are reluctant to throw the first blow not wanting tog et hit back.* But the onlookers' who wont suffer from punches to the face taunt and jeer both wanting to see them fight.



Good point


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## Delta4Embassy (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks. What people outside of Israel don't appreciate is we're sick of this never-ending conflict. People on both sides want it to be over so we can all enjoy living without constant fear of war. It's outside agitators keeping this thing hot.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> This isn't about right or wrong, just or unjust.  Its about reality.
> 
> And the reality is that racist and illegal policies by Israel pours fuel on the fire of anti-Semitism around the world.
> 
> Racist and fascist statements by Zionists in Israel and around the world fuels anti-Semitism.



That's opinion, not necessarily reality.



> When Israel does something racist, when a supporter does something racist or says something racist and a Neo-Nazi acts upon those deeds and kills a Jew somewhere around the world, Israel or the supporter shares the blood on their hands.



Neo-Nazi's are going to do it anyway - if they can't find an excuse in Israel's policies, they'll make up something.  What Israel does or doesn't do in reality makes no difference to those people as long as Israel exists and if it doesn't exist they will still be anti-semitic and find some other reason to attack Jews and any other group they have their sights focused on.


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## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> This isn't about right or wrong, just or unjust.  Its about reality.
> 
> And the reality is that racist and illegal policies by Israel pours fuel on the fire of anti-Semitism around the world.
> 
> ...



This is an incredibly ridiculous statement. I don't even know where to start with this one. 
you just said that if a Jew is killed somewhere outside Israel because of something that happened in Israel, then Israel is partially responsible for their death ..


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## Delta4Embassy (Feb 13, 2014)

"There is no instance in history of a nation having benefitted from prolonged warfare." Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"

And with that I'm off to more enjoyable threads.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

toastman said:


> This is an incredibly ridiculous statement. I don't even know where to start with this one.
> you just said that if a Jew is killed somewhere outside Israel because of something that happened in Israel, then Israel is partially responsible for their death ..



If Israel demolishes a house and leaves 5 Muslim children homeless and some Muslims kill a Jew in France as retribution, Israel shares the blame.  

Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum and the sooner they realize this, the safer World Jewry will be.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> How many are supporters and defenders of terrorism, which shows that the vast majority are criminals.
> This shows that your JEW HATRED has taken control of your life





Phoenall said:


> He has lost, he knows *he has lost and he shows it in true commie fashion by hurling insults*.



I've seen no polls showing widespread support by Israeli Arabs for terrorism.  You simply have racist ideas about Israeli citizens.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Nowdays?

Name one.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians aren't America's enemy - terrorists are.  You do realize there are Jewish terrorist groups as well?
> ...



Kach was declaied illegal in Israel itself and it no longer exists, as a matter of fact. They've been out of the loop for years, now.

Kahane Chai are mostly hilltop youth, and they aren't recognized in Israel as terrorists. And they are active only in Israel.

As for the JDL, that's up for debate.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Yeah, but he was a lone nutjob, not part of any terrorist group...


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Yeah, but he was a lone nutjob, not part of any terrorist group...



Doesn't matter, now does it?  He was a Jewish terrorist.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > What do I, an outcast, reformed American Christian say about Palisimian's that has anything to do with Israel, Jews or Zionists? You are mistaken, Bubbalie.
> ...



Those who hate Jews don't need any excuse.

But keep telling yourself you hate Jews because of Israeli "Policies". That might fool you and a couple of other assholes, but not those with half a brain.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, but he was a lone nutjob, not part of any terrorist group...
> ...



Yes, but I was talking about recognized groups, follow the posts..


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



When you were growing up were you taught that everyone hates Jews?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Those who hate Jews don't need any excuse.
> 
> But keep telling yourself you hate Jews because of Israeli "Policies". That might fool you and a couple of other assholes, but not those with half a brain.



I don't hate Jews.  You simply accuse me of this because you think its good politics to accuse anyone who criticizes Israel of being an anti-Semite.

The boy who cried wolf, eventually gets eaten by the wolf.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > This is an incredibly ridiculous statement. I don't even know where to start with this one.
> ...



What you say is nonsense.

And fuming!

Miriam Monsenego was killed in France in the name of _"Palestinian resistance"_







You say Bennett is to blame for it?

*No, The Muslim piece of shit who shot her in the head is to blame for it!*


----------



## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Those who hate Jews don't need any excuse.
> ...



Unless he can learn to defend himself.

Which is what Israel is trying to do.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



No.

When I was growing up I believed in the chance of "peace". a fake one, imagine that.

The fact that most of "Israel's criticizers" are Antisemitie scumbags, I learned with time.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> No.
> 
> When I was growing up I believed in the chance of "peace". a fake one, imagine that.
> 
> The fact that most of "Israel's criticizers" are Antisemitie scumbags, I learned with time.



Peace Now is all anti-Semites?

Proof that your accusations are irrational and merely political.

When you and others make false accusations of anti-Semitism, you shit on the graves of Holocaust victims.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...



*Yes.*


----------



## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Shaarona said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



In my whole life I have never heard anyone but Jewish people talk about "Jew hate".


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Right, because anyone who criticises Israel is an anti-Semite.  

Do yourself a favor:  stop crying wolf and stop shitting on the graves of Holocaust victims.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...



Fill your mouth water when speaking of Holocaust victims!

My father was raised by a man who survived 2 world wars. He told him since he was young,_ "don't ever let the Arab take over this country, or all that I've been through would be for nothing"_

I respect my grandfather's words, is why we do what we do and act how we act.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



No, because what I see from here you don't see from there.

Get it?


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Shaarona said:
> ...



So?


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Fill your mouth water when speaking of Holocaust victims!
> 
> My father was raised by a man who survived 2 world wars. He told him since he was young,_ "don't ever let the Arab take over this country, or all that I've been through would be for nothing"_
> 
> I respect my grandfather's words, is why we do what we do and act how we act.



You have politicized anti-Semitism.  You have turned it into a political tool to silence criticism of Israel.  You shit on true victims of anti-Semitism, like Holocaust victims.

Stop crying wolf before the wolf eats you and no one comes to your aid.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I already did, but I'll repeat:

JDL and it's related international branches
Tag Mehir
Kach and Kahane Chai
Bat Ayin Underground: this one is particularly nasty, targeting children and schools.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




JDL is up for debate????

Seriously?  If you excuse their actions as non terrorist, I am amazed.


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

'Tag Mehir' is not a terrorist organization
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Gosh, the stupidity that biased media feeds people with


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## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Some of their actions are pure terrorism. Some can be viewed as heroic.

What's why I said "It's up for debate" and didn't say "They aren't terrorist".

See the dif?


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



It helps to have a cute picture of an injured or murdered child to make a point.  

I don't.

None the less, I think and hope we can agree that the Jewish "piece of shit" who planned this is contemptable and it is certainly a terrorist act.  Fortunately, Israeli authorities recognize these groups for what they are: terrorists, and they aren't making excuses for them or pretending they don't exist.

Bat Ayin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> In an operation undertaken on the night of April 29, 2002, Yarden Morag and Shlomo Dvir-Zeliger drove a vehicle with a trailer to East Jerusalem. They were initially stopped near the Beit Orot Yeshiva by Mount Scopus, because it was irregular for Jews with skullcaps to drive in Palestinian areas of East Jerusalem, at night. They were not detained, since police accèpted their excuse that they were on their way to a yeshiva.
> 
> The same police officers, Shimon Cohen and Barak Segev, later sighted the same vehicle near a girls' school, close by the Al-Makassad hospital in the Abu Tor neighbourhood. The officers stopped the two and examined the car, *finding that the trailer had two containers of gasoline rigged to two TNT bricks, and propane gas tanks*. The explosive charge consisted of a "vergin" (military battery), and the device, in a baby carriage, was *timed to explode at 7:35 am., when dozens of girls would have been entering the schoolgrounds*.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Fill your mouth water when speaking of Holocaust victims!
> ...



You're just uncomfortable with certain facts you know to be true.

But I get it.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...




So...if a group uses terrorist tactics for noble means...they aren't terrorist?

Or...if they use terrorist tactics and also do "heroic" acts...they aren't terrorist?

Do you realize what a can of worms this opens up in regards to who is or isn't terrorist?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> 'Tag Mehir' is not a terrorist organization
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your own officials are calling it - not me, not the biased media.

From the link I posted:



> Price tag attacks are acts of terror, declared Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon as he lashed out at hate crimes against Palestinians, hours after two cars were torched in a West Bank village, and a day after a group of Jews were trapped allegedly en route to vandalize another village.
> 
> The unacceptable phenomenon called price tag attack is, in my eyes, a terrorist act in every sense of the word. We are acting and will act against its perpetrators with zero tolerance, and with a stern and determined hand to eradicate it, said Yaalon.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Good thing is that they failed against the crime they were trying to pull off.

Doesn't change in the least what I've been trying to say.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > 'Tag Mehir' is not a terrorist organization
> ...



I'm simply pointing your actual factual error.

"Tag Mehir" literally means "price tag". It's a phrase, but there is no terrorist organization called "Tag Mehir".

Most of the "Price taggers" work alone or in small groups. "Price tag" doesn't have a clear policy or a leadership. They get pissed off, they do something.

But besides a few names, you don't really know who they are.

Some of what they do is horrible, we can agree on at least that (without the grafitti part, which we discussed before, and I told you what I think) but since it doesn't have clear policy, members, or leadership, the "price tag" cannot be viewed as "Terrorist Organization".

Something that Ya'alon knows.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Israel hasn't enjoyed a single year of peace since 1947. Maybe if the whole world wasn't involved in the goings on there we could get together with our opposition and settle things without shouts from the cheap seats messing things up. All I'm saying. It's like a schoolyard fight, both sides face each other down, but are reluctant to throw the first blow not wanting tog et hit back. But the onlookers' who wont suffer from punches to the face taunt and jeer both wanting to see them fight.


It's a fight alright. The Islamic ideology of medieval mentality, hatred, violence, and intolerance verses Israel. Just like the fight against Nazism and Communism, last man standing wins.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Once that group beat the crap out of a bald-head who attacked a Jewish girl.

No, that's not terrorism. Not by all means. If the police couldn't handle this Nazi, then if you ask me, it's good those men were there.

If they attack innocent ones, it is of course terrorism.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > This is an incredibly ridiculous statement. I don't even know where to start with this one.
> ...


Israel doesn't demolish a house and leave five children homeless.  You are mixing up Isrsel with the Arabs.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Many terrorist groups also conduct "good acts" - for example Hamas has done a great deal of charitable stuff to help Palestinians in need.  Does that make them any less a terrorist group?  Does mean they are open for debate?

Same with Price Tag (though I know you and I will forever disagree here ) - at what point do bad actions overrule good actions and the group becomes a terrorist group?

What then defines a terrorist group?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

HumiliatingDefeat67 is playing an old moldy anti Semetic canard: "The Jews create anti semetism towards themselves".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard

An antisemitic canard (evoking a French-derived English catchword for "hoax") is a false story inciting antisemitism. Despite being false by definition, antisemitic canards often form part of broader theories of Jewish conspiracies.

Accusations of causing antisemitism
In January 2005, a group of Russian State Duma deputies demanded that Judaism and Jewish organizations be banned from Russia. "Their seven-page letter... accused Jews of carrying out ritual killings, controlling Russian and international capital, inciting ethnic strife in Russia, and staging hate crimes against themselves. "The majority of antisemitic actions in the whole world are constantly carried out by Jews themselves with a goal of provocation", the letter claimed." After sharp protests by Russian Jewish leaders, human rights activists, and the Foreign Ministry, Duma members retracted their appeal.

You guys really have nothing but the same old bullshit over and over, do you?


----------



## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Israelis demolish Arab homes in East Jerusalem and the West Bank every week.. and have for years.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjTj-NVECM]Ethnic Cleansing of a Bedouin Village in the Negev Desert by Israeli Forces - YouTube[/ame]


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Of the 663 Palestinian structures torn down last year, the highest number in five years, 122 were built with international donor aid.

The International Red Cross announced this week it would stop delivering tents to Palestinians made homeless by demolitions in the Jordan border region of the occupied West Bank, citing Israeli obstruction and confiscation of aid.

&#8220;International and local aid organisations have faced increasingly severe restrictions in responding to the needs created by the unlawful demolition of civilian property, in violation of Israel&#8217;s obligation to facilitate the effective delivery of aid,&#8221; wrote the groups, which included Oxfam and Christian Aid.


Read more: Surge in Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes | The National 
Follow us: [MENTION=27326]The[/MENTION]NationalUAE on Twitter | thenational.ae on Facebook


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


"And leave five children homeless"?  You realize there are 1.8 billion Arabs that live inside Israel as Israeli citizens with full rights.  And Isrsel isn't going around demolishing their homes either.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


You mean homes that are permitted on land that belongs to Israel?  Why shouldn't isrsel build ore homes for its expanding populations?


----------



## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Shaarona said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You need to do more reading and get honest.

Of the 663 Palestinian structures torn down last year, the highest number in five years, 122 were built with international donor aid.

The International Red Cross announced this week it would stop delivering tents to Palestinians made homeless by demolitions in the Jordan border region of the occupied West Bank, citing Israeli obstruction and confiscation of aid.

International and local aid organisations have faced increasingly severe restrictions in responding to the needs created by the unlawful demolition of civilian property, in violation of Israels obligation to facilitate the effective delivery of aid, wrote the groups, which included Oxfam and Christian Aid.


Read more: Surge in Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes | The National 
Follow us: [MENTION=27326]The[/MENTION]NationalUAE on Twitter | thenational.ae on Facebook


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


Was it ethnic cleansing when Israeli forces evicted all the Jews from Gaza and handed the genocidal Palestinians their Jew free homeland?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Shaarona said:
> ...


Unlawful?  That's conquered land. Get over it dude.  That's like saying Americans are building on Mexican land in Texas.


----------



## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Israeli parents thought it was stupid to use 20,000 IDF to protect 8,000 Jewish settlers amid 1 million Gazans who are for the most part refugees from Palestine.


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

You want ethnic cleansing, check the Palestinian savages. Lets hear it from the horse's mouth herself:

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=4RJRSA2XtrE]92 years old palestinian women talk about Hebron massacre - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


So Jews forcibly removing other Jews from their homes that they had lived on for years wasn't "ethnic cleansing". Very interesting.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> You want ethnic cleansing, check the Palestinian savages. Lets hear it from the horse's mouth herself:
> 
> 92 years old palestinian women talk about Hebron massacre - YouTube



Hebron was an Arab town until 1500 when many Jews who had been expelled from Spain moved in without incident.


----------



## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > You want ethnic cleansing, check the Palestinian savages. Lets hear it from the horse's mouth herself:
> ...



And ?


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Anyone we do not like.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Shaarona said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
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Speaking of Gazans, that Egyptian official who told the Gazans to come back to Egypt must have known something.  Betcha that an awful lot of these Gazans have Egyptian surnames.


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## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Crock of crap.

A terrorist group is a group who's attacks don't distinguish between civilian and military targets and are perpetrated in order to create fear (hence the word TERROR  in TERRORISM) for the purpose of achieving a political and or religious goal.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 13, 2014)

toastman said:


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My definition is more accurate.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


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You are ignorant of surnames in the part of the world..

70% of Gazans weren't born there.. They were driven out of the West Bank as refugees.

The European Jews were also refugees... seeking sanctuary.. Give that some thought.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Lipush said:


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Quite a while back there was a poster who was a Christian man from the New York area.  He was a member of the JDL in New York, and there was a website for the JDL where all those joining made comments.  Many of the new members happened to be Christians.  I would imagine that they were trying to help the Jews in New York from those who would attack them.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


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Tell you what, Miss Know-it-all.  Go find the Egyptian official who said that the Gazans should return to Egypt and ask him why he stated that.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


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Name the Egyptian "official".


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## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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What you provided isnt a definition.


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## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

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Isn't that what she asked you to do ?


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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I never heard of that Egyptian official or that statement..

Sinai an Canaan was controlled by Egypt in antiquity and Gaza was administered by Egypt for decades.

The People.. whether they are Syrian, Palestinian or Egyptian are all related thru family and share many surnames.

Was your family from Palestine or did they immigrated from Europe or Russia?


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

toastman said:


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I'm shocked.  Miss Know-it-all throws things out, but she can't do any research on finding who the Egyptian official was.  I think the official knew what he was talking about when he made that statement  even though Shaarona herself would probably call him a liar.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 13, 2014)

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US citizens are from all over the place. We are still all US citizens.

I don't see the relevance of this discussion.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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Just name him.... 

I do recall that Ghaddafi invited all Libyan Jews to return.. 

I remember many of them who lived in Libya until the Yom Kippur war. The women were pretty active  in the arts community in Tripoli.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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Sally.  You brought up this Egyptian official.

Either source it or admit it was BS and you're flailing around trying to deflect.

It's not Shaarona's job to source your claims.

Who was it?


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## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

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My dad was born in Poland in 1949, but moved to Israel when he was barely two years old with his brother and parents
My mother was born in Morocco and moved to Israel in her twenties with her brothers, sisters and parents. 
My parents met in Haifa.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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Is violent anti-semitism that big a problem in NYC?  It's generally a very cosmopolitian, very ethnically mixed city with a large and long established Jewish population.

I have no doubts that the JDL is accurately classified as terrorist unless they've renounced violence and I've not found anything on that.  Once they start targeting innocent people for violence - they've lost any moral highground and it doesn't matter, in my opinion - how much "good" they were supposedly doing.  You can't right a wrong with more wrongs - at least that is how I've come to view it.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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Thank you ... that was civil and informative.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

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Ha, ha.  Right on cue comes Coyote.  With all the so-called facts that Shaarona throws out, does her friend Coyote ever tell her to source her claims?  No way, José!!!  Meanwhile, dear Shaarona's buddy, would this article do since I don't want to spend a lot of time searching for the Egyptian official.  One thing I don't do is throw out facts unless I have actually read them.  

Hamas Official: ?Palestinians don?t come from Palestine. Half Are From Egypt, And Half From Saudi Arabia.? |


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

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Have you ever thought that there were Jews who actually were set upon in New York (just like they are set upon in Europe), and those Christians who joined the JDL wanted to help out.  I don't think that thought would ever cross your mind.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Is violent anti-semitism that big a problem in NYC?  It's generally a very cosmopolitian, very ethnically mixed city with a large and long established Jewish population.
> 
> I have no doubts that the JDL is accurately classified as terrorist unless they've renounced violence and I've not found anything on that.  Once they start targeting innocent people for violence - they've lost any moral highground and it doesn't matter, in my opinion - how much "good" they were supposedly doing.  You can't right a wrong with more wrongs - at least that is how I've come to view it.



Violent anti-Semitism isn't a major problem in the USA.  Hasn't been for decades.


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## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


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In my travels I've been places where I had to don the shroud and cover my face.  Except that my walk was identifiable as western, I didn't get leers or cat calls as I walked by.  On the other hand, as thin as it was, I still felt suffocated and over heated.  I felt apart from society, invisible and of not importance.  A ghost walking though the world, the last to be spoken to and have my words dismisses as if a child.  I was trying to respect tradition but I could not wait to get out that thing and away from people that demeaned it.  I also have the privilege of traveling through the middle east in times where as long as you dresses relatively modest, no hot pants and tight shirts cut down to there, you can be free to move around and meet people, and they don't scorn you for your appearance.
Allah did not demand women hid themselves.  During Mohammed's time, women wore bright colors and jewelry to be attractive.  Mohammed did not women to be immodest and asked that they cover their breast.  He did however go into battle with women who lead armies bare breasted and fought fearlessly with a sword.  
It is one thing to have a cover against the desert sand and sun, but it was not tradition to hind away totally when out in town.  Wives of sultans might have been hidden in harams, but that was no so for the common women who also were able to operate their own businesses.  Most women had some male protector, family, but others might have had slaves or hired a man to act as a "body guard".
Burkas used to be seen only in rural traditional ares and were rather an oddity like a tribal costume.  Women of all areas still loved to adorn themselves in color and makeup, or henna, and jewelry was their private wealth, like a private savings account or a rainy day.
Women were beautiful and they walked with pride in public.  Most urban women were educated not just in culture but business and politics.
I'm saddened to see so many women mistake tribal culture for religious requirements.

Hijab or not women should not hide behind modesty, before god or men.  God made us as we are and dress or in birthday suit women should stand proud and self sufficient.  Learning should never stop.  We should understand the culture around us not just within religion.  Learn from them, be apart of them, but if religious we observe faith inside us or in private.  Religion should not be shield we shove in the face or other or hide behind, it is a tool to make people more aware and caring or others.  To be more in tune with the world, not fight against it.

Israel at a Point of No Return - In the Right Direction :: Middle East Forum
I fund this rather interesting regarding women, education, technology and religion  
People of all faiths and traditions can work together and help each others.


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## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

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Not sure if this is sarcasm or not


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Do you live in New York, Victory, so you absolutely know what is going on?  Meanwhile, the majority of the hate crimes committed in the U.S. are against the Jews and the Blacks.  I am sure you can research this.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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You have a fascinating ethnic/cultural mix Toastman - that must have made for an interesting childhood.  Morocco is a country I would like to visit someday (this is, of course, after I've won the lottery).


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Do you live in New York, Victory, so you absolutely know what is going on?  Meanwhile, the majority of the hate crimes committed in the U.S. are against the Jews and the Blacks.  I am sure you can research this.



When was the last time a Jew was murdered in the USA simple because he was a Jew?


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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So...you make excuses for terrorism based on religious identification?  Is that what you are saying Sally?


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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No.. it wasn't sarcasm.. I asked you a question and you answered me. Thank you.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

There is real anti-Semitism out there.  It is violent and evil.  Innocent people and even children suffer because of it.  It needs to be stopped!

And then there is fake anti-Semitism.  This comes from lovers of Israel who refuse to accept any criticism of Israel, even from Jews.  If you are a Gentile who criticizes Israel you must be an anti-Semite.  If you are a Jew who criticizes Israel you must be a self-loathing Jew.  That leaves no room for any criticism of Israel.

When Israel lovers accuse all their criticis of anti-Semitism even when anti-Semitism isn't being expressed, they shit on the graves of Holocaust victims and all other Jews who died from real anti-Semitism.

The boy better stop crying wolf cause when the REAL wolf comes around, no one will be there to give a shit.


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## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

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Morocco is well worth visiting.  You must indulge in the local cuisine, and get lost in the markets.


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## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

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Ah. No problem


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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So...The Muslim Issue again.  Great source Sally.  

But where is this "Egyptian Official" - it's an Hamas official making statements.

Let's keep things straight here Sally:  You throw out a claim and then you demand others support that claim?


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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That's idiotic.. 

Palestinians aren't from Saudi Arabia.  Their cultures are NOTHING alike.

But then I seriously doubt that Sally has much education.... and she certainly hasn't ever traveled to KSA or Lebanon or Syria or Palestine.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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The source is a well known hate site, so I'm not surprised - the article full of red flag language that would normally be condemned in any responsible journalism.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

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When you start asking your friend Shaarona to start sourcing her claims, then maybe I will take the time to find the article about what the Egyptian official said.  Isn't Coyote a riot???  With all the so-called facts her friend has thrown out, never once has she asked her to source anything.  Now why can that be???>


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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Ok...wait a moment...are you now saying that the source you claimed was the source isn't after all because...(I'm guessing) you don't remember what you said or who said what?

Sally...you're in over your head here....stop digging


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

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Does one have to travel like Shaarona is claiming that she has traveled (like eveyrone believes her here!!).  Meanwhile, my husband has been around the world five times, and he can certainly tell Shaarona a thing or two.  As an aside, people have come to the U.S. from many different countries in the world (especially at the end of the 1800's to the early 1900's) and each group had different cultures.  However, as the years passed, the children and grandchildren didn't immerse themselves into the cultures of these different countries but became citizens of the American culture.  People do start to assimilate into the culture in which they are living.  Of course there are hold-outs, as we see happening in Europe.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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Your husband was in the military, wasn't he?

My history is not the least bit unusual for and oil brat.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

To Coyote and her fellow travelers, anything that they don't like being said is considered a hate site by them.  However, when her fellow travelers actually use hate sites that have been listed in studies of hate sites, she has been very, very quiet.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> To Coyote and her fellow travelers, anything that they don't like being said is considered a hate site by them.  However, when her fellow travelers actually use hate sites that have been listed in studies of hate sites, she has been very, very quiet.



You are incapable of learning anything....

Wasn't your husband in the military?


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## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

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Not all articles publishes make it to "favorable" sites immediately.  I've tried to explain this before, especially not in english.  Sometimes you have to take an article on it' own merits and who is making the statements, not by the web site that is the first found. 


Perhaps this will be a better site

(Video) Hamas Official: Who are the Palestinians? The Palestinians don?t come from Palestine. | Palestine-Israel Conflict


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Sally said:
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> > To Coyote and her fellow travelers, anything that they don't like being said is considered a hate site by them.  However, when her fellow travelers actually use hate sites that have been listed in studies of hate sites, she has been very, very quiet.
> ...



Do you really think all the readers are accepting your so-called facts?  People would be better off just going to regular encyclopedias.    Yes, people in the military do go around the world.  Not only that, but in the early 80's he was sent to the Middle East for various reasons, one of them to help those people who wanted to get out of Iran.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 13, 2014)

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Sally, have you been to the West Bank?  I'd been in Israel for summers as a kid, but we usually stayed at my grandmother's house in Haifa, with an occasional trip to Jerusalem.  The first time I really toured the entire country as a whole, was when I was a student in Bar-Ilan from 1982-1983.  If Palestine can be considered the West Bank, then that's the first time I was there.  That's also the first time I had a converstion with an Arab youth, who was about my age at the time, at Abraham's Tomb in Hebron.  Two things that struck me in that meeting:  1)  He had studied at Oxford University in England, and I had always thought of Palestinians as poor refugees until that point.  Yet his family were obviously well-off enough to provide an education like that for him and his brother.  2)  He was not murderous but unusually friendly.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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I think most people are better informed than you about the world of American ex-pats.

I have known many American military people in the ME over many, many years. Used to invite them for dinner on American holidays.. and they would surprise the children with hula hoops or Bazooka bubble gum. Some are interested in the locals scene and culture.. others are not.. and most are on short tours.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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I believe she's traveled...
and I believe aris2chat has traveled...

though their perspectives differ - their posts are interesting and informative...

I believe your husband has traveled...however, you are making claims to knowledge by riding on his coat tails, so your knowledge is second hand.

If he can tell Shaarona a thing or two, by all means invite him to join USMB 



> As an aside, people have come to the U.S. from many different countries in the world (especially at the end of the 1800's to the early 1900's) and each group had different cultures.  *However, as the years passed, the children and grandchildren didn't immerse themselves into the cultures of these different countries but became citizens of the American culture.*  People do start to assimilate into the culture in which they are living.  Of course there are hold-outs, as we see happening in Europe.



That is still true with today's immigrant groups, and even in Europe.  Where there are "hold outs" as you say - there are also mitigating factors that we don't have in the US nor in the UK.

Citizenship is a big factor in integration into the larger culture - countries with a history of guestworker programs have large populations of foriegn non-citizens (usually without their families) living for years but with no possibility of citizenship.  I think that discourages assimilation and it is also often reinforced by segregation based on economic levels and class.

Another factor (I don't recall where I read this) pertains to those countries, like France, who offer citizenship to anyone from it's former colonies.  Unlike Britain, France's former colonies were often poor and left in bad shape when they attained independence (England tended to invest heavily in civil service and infrastructure in their colonies and attracted immigrants that were at a higher educational level).  Also, many of the immigrants to France came from very poor and very uneducated regions (for example rural villages in Algiers) and when they immigrated, they tended to import their (uneducated) religious leaders.  That kind of population can make integration harder especially when coupled with a larger economic and cultural segregation and lack of good paying jobs to encourage upward mobility.

That's something we, in the US, have not experienced.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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People have told me that when they traveled and meet foreign cultures first hand, they are often surprised - meeting people first hand is quite different than reading about them.

I have not been to any of those countries.  My knowledge, like Sally's is second hand as my mother traveled extensively.  She used to work for NIH, and was involved in a number of collaborative international studies dealing with heart disease.  She traveled to USSR, Israel, Pakistan, China, Poland and Japan and I heard many interesting stories about the cultures - especially USSR and Israel, the two studies that went on the longest and where she maintains to this day ties with some her fellow researchers.  In addition, they would travel here and I have particularly fond memories of the Israeli's and the Soviet scientists.  We would entertain them as they would be in the US for 2-3 weeks at a stretch.  It was second hand, and it was also scientists, so that makes it an unusual group of people but to this day I have a deep love for both the Russian and the Israeli soul.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Most of the people who came from Europe years ago were poor and uneducated, but their children managed to go to the public schools with children of Americans and, therefore, assimilated into the American culture.  I went to school with many kids whose parents came from Sicility, but the kids were as American as I was.  There are people in Europe who were born there with parents from another culture, and they still have not assimiliated.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

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Here in the Los Angeles, which is really a melting pot, one makes friends with people who come from all over.  In fact, you find people from all over just in the housing tract you live in.  They can tell you all about their countries if you are willing to listen.  In fact, even at the Board of Realtors, each year they have what is called a Culture Night where realtors from different cultures tell you how to deal with people of that culture.


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

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Ha ha ha.  Gazans are Egyptians.  Even the founder of the Palestinian Bowel Movement the terrorist Yasser Arafat was born and raised in Egypt.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Most of the people who came from Europe years ago were poor and uneducated, but their children managed to go to the public schools with children of Americans and, therefore, assimilated into the American culture.  I went to school with many kids whose parents came from Sicility, but the kids were as American as I was.  There are people in Europe who were born there with parents from another culture, and they still have not assimiliated.



I think there is a difference though, Sally - between immigration in America and in Europe and I think that alters how well assimilation occurs.

We are rather uniquely, along with Canada and Australia for example - nations founded on immigration.  That is who we are, and each immigrant wave has added to our culture while it's also assimilated.

We also never had a guest worker program nor any government programs that imported workers specifically for low-wage work which create a self-segregating environment.

I think those two things - a culture that is not based on immigration, and types of programs that don't encourage assimilation - could have some effects on assimilation.

Another factor - and this is what went along with what I was saying about France - is that France offers complete social benefits to any citizen, and they have one of the most well padded "welfare states" for it's citizens.  This attracts heavy immigration from very poor, rural areas without the associated desire to work for upward mobility and the assimilation that occurs in the process.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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Arafat's mother died young and he went to live in Jerusalem with family..

You really should work on an education.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the people who came from Europe years ago were poor and uneducated, but their children managed to go to the public schools with children of Americans and, therefore, assimilated into the American culture.  I went to school with many kids whose parents came from Sicility, but the kids were as American as I was.  There are people in Europe who were born there with parents from another culture, and they still have not assimiliated.
> ...



Now isn't that strange that a Pakistani Brit who was actually born in Britain said that White women are just pieces of meat when a discussion was held how young White girls were being trained by other Pakistani Brits to become prostitutes.  One would think that this man who had a job in Britain and also had a factory in Pakistan churning out clothes would have thought a little better of White women.  I don't think I know of anyone who would say that those women living here who come from Pakistan are just pieces of meat.  As for Europe, maybe it would be better for them to stop the immigration of these people who just come for the benefits.  Eventually the other Europeans are going to get awfully tired of having to pay high taxes to support these people.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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One idiot Pakistani calls the shots for you??  No wonder you have such a hate problem.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

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I imagine Ms. Know-it-all doesn't keep up with the British papers so that she knows what is going on.  Meanwhile, Ms. Know-it-all doesn't seem to have a problem with those who actually hate people because of their religious beliefs.  Shh, mum's the word about how many dead people are lying dead in the streets because of their religious beliefs in the Middle East, Southeast Asia and Africa.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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So you live in the UK?


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

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Any invading Arab that squatted on that land for two years or more, and that Arab's descendants is considered a Palestinian.  And then of course we have Arabs who are notorious for being fabricators.  I don't recall any visitor that came to the US "from all over" for two years becoming an immediate US citizen.  Palestinians are 20th century Arab invaders to that land who started calling themselves Palestinians as of 1967.  Very few Palestinians can trace their ancestry back more than two or maximum three generations.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

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So you are having a hard time finding British newspapers to read?   Ask Phoenall which newspapers he suggests since he happens to live there.  Meanwhile, as the readers can see -- mum's still the word for all the dead people lying in the streets because of their religious beliefs.  It's like these events should never be mentioned no matter how many innocents have died.


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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Don't be such a drama queen.. You are listening to a janitor who worked taking care of bathrooms in rental properties.


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## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

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Arafat was born, raised and educated in Egypt.  His uncle was the Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and Arafat decided to join him in the extermination of Jews, because that's where the money was.  Arafat became a prodigy of his Nazi Arab uncle, who was indirectly responsible for convincing Hitler and Himmler to kill and additional 500,000 Jews in death camps as opposed to letting them escape. Later on, Arafat changed his last name from "Husseini" to Arafat as it had negative connotations with his Nazi uncle.  

True story.   

It is you that is ignorant and needs an education.  

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage


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## Shaarona (Feb 13, 2014)

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His uncle wasn't the Mufti.. Different family. You all can't afford to tell the children the truth.


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## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

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So are you saying that this one person represents the attitudes of the majority of Pakastani Brits and that that in turn is representative of the majority of Muslim immigrants in Europe?

Here is another (British) article: Immigrant Doctor Saves UKIP Leader?s Life - The Daily Currant



> The leader of the anti-immigrant U.K. Independence Party was rushed to hospital today in Westerham, Kent, where his life was saved by an immigrant doctor from Pakistan.
> 
> ..."Of course I recognized Mr. Farage, and I did see the irony of the situation. But I am a professional, and my team treated him as we would any other patient."



I guess you, as spokesmen for UK and Europe, must be getting tired of people these...


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Ha ha ha.  Gazans are Egyptians.  Even the founder of the Palestinian Bowel Movement the terrorist Yasser Arafat was born and raised in Egypt.



What percent of Gazans are from Egypt?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Any invading Arab that squatted on that land for two years or more, and that Arab's descendants is considered a Palestinian.  And then of course we have Arabs who are notorious for being fabricators.  I don't recall any visitor that came to the US "from all over" for two years becoming an immediate US citizen.  *Palestinians are 20th century Arab invaders to that land who started calling themselves Palestinians as of 1967.  Very few Palestinians can trace their ancestry back more than two or maximum three generations.*



And the vast majority of Israelis can't trace their ancestors back to Israel more than 2 generations. Israelis are 20th century jewish invaders from Europe and the Middle East.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...






 A very angry man that did not like being told to declare his earnings from the sweat shop in Pakistan and to stop claiming welfare. He drove a taxi in Britain's second city and bragged about all the very young girls he had in his taxi because they did not have enough money for the fare. Can you remember the very angry post from the muslimah convert in regards to his posts, I still have it if you want to see it. In fact anyone that wants to see how vile and foul mouthed muslims can be can drop me a PM so they can read it.


----------



## toastman (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Any invading Arab that squatted on that land for two years or more, and that Arab's descendants is considered a Palestinian.  And then of course we have Arabs who are notorious for being fabricators.  I don't recall any visitor that came to the US "from all over" for two years becoming an immediate US citizen.  *Palestinians are 20th century Arab invaders to that land who started calling themselves Palestinians as of 1967.  Very few Palestinians can trace their ancestry back more than two or maximum three generations.*
> ...



Got a link for that??

BTW, why does it matter if Israelis can't trace their ancestors more than 2 generations? They have nothing to prove , as the country belongs to them.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...






 He was typical of all Pakistanis in Britain, which is why they are being arrested for underage sex, rape, racism, murder and terrorism by the hundreds every month.

UK: Another day, another MUSLIM Paedophile sex gang arrested | BARE NAKED ISLAM

Britain Today: Cover-up of mass child rape by Pakistani moslems

muslim rape

Muslim Gangs Drug and Rape Children All Over The UK | FrontPage Magazine

Rant On UK! » 13 Pakistani Men Accused Of Child Grooming And Rape In Oxford

LiveLeak.com - UK: 11 Muslim Men Rape Underage Girls For Years, Got 11 year Old Pregnant (comments)



 This is the islam we see in the UK today, along with beheadings in the street and beatings by gangs of muslim thugs.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Shaarona said:
> ...


Sharoona you have proven to be totally ignorant and uninformed for somebody who claims to "have knowledge" based on having lived there.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

toastman said:


> Got a link for that??
> 
> BTW, why does it matter if Israelis can't trace their ancestors more than 2 generations? They have nothing to prove , as the country belongs to them.



in 1922 there were only 83,000 Jews and 665,000 Arabs in Palestine.

In 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine:

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost *all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years*. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.[44]

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The overall assessment of several British reports was that the increase in the Arab population was *primarily due to natural increase.*[47][48] These included the Hope Simpson report (1930),[49] the Passfield White Paper (1930)[50] the Peel Commission report (1937)[51] and the Survey of Palestine (1945).[52] The 1931 census of Palestine considered the question of illegal immigration since the previous census in 1922.[53] It estimated that unrecorded immigration during that period may have amounted to 9,000 Jews and 4,000 Arabs.[53] *It also gave the fraction of persons living in Palestine in 1931 who were born outside Palestine: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%.*

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yehoshua Porath believes that the notion of "large-scale immigration of Arabs from the neighboring countries" is *a myth "proposed by Zionist writers"*. 

McCarthy explains, "... *evidence for Muslim immigration into Palestine is minimal*. Because no Ottoman records of that immigration have yet been discovered, one is thrown back on demographic analysis to evaluate Muslim migration."[56][57] McCarthy argues that there is no significant Arab immigration into mandatory Palestine:

According to Martin Gilbert, *50,000 Arabs immigrated to Mandatory Palestine from the neighboring lands between 1919 and 1939* "attracted by the improving agricultural conditions and growing job opportunities, most of them created by the Jews".[45] The Arab population of Palestine doubled during the mandatory period from 670 000 in 1922 to over 1,2 million in 1948. The estimates on the scope of Arab immigration to Palestine during this period range from insignificant numbers to almost 300 000.[citation needed] According to Itzhak Galnoor, although most of Arab population increase came from natural increase, the Arab immigration to Palestine was not insignificant. *Based on his estimates approximately 100 000 Arabs immigrated to Palestine between 1922 and 1948.*


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Shaarona said:
> ...






Try again sha as I was highly qualified to do the job I did, I do not know of any muslim that passed even the first years exam. Nevermind becoming a master tradesman


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I always used to enjoy the posts of a guy living in Israel with the screen name of Moshav77.  Itzhak said that his ancestors were in Israel way before Columbus left for America, and no doubt there are other Israelis who could claim the same.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...






 Yes he is very typical of the muslims in the UK, arrogant and violent. Just like the muslim Lord that threatened parliament with violence if they allowed a film to be shown. You can check up on him, Lord ahmed who was arrested for causing the death of an innocent motorist. Then removed from office when he made racist remarks about Jews, and not forgetting placing a bounty on obamas head.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ha ha ha.  Gazans are Egyptians.  Even the founder of the Palestinian Bowel Movement the terrorist Yasser Arafat was born and raised in Egypt.
> ...


Gazans and Egyptians are indistinguishable peoples.  They are the same genetically, culturally, language, food, music, everything with their Arab brethren.  In fact, the Palestinians are nothing but invading Arabs from neighboring Arab countries such as Syria, and Jordan.  Making them a "separate people" is the most ridiculous proposal in history.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Any invading Arab that squatted on that land for two years or more, and that Arab's descendants is considered a Palestinian.  And then of course we have Arabs who are notorious for being fabricators.  I don't recall any visitor that came to the US "from all over" for two years becoming an immediate US citizen.  *Palestinians are 20th century Arab invaders to that land who started calling themselves Palestinians as of 1967.  Very few Palestinians can trace their ancestry back more than two or maximum three generations.*
> ...






But still Jews and all have the genetic fingerprint that says they are Jews, something that is missing from the Palestinians. This is why they refuse to have DNA testing done as it will show their true ancestry.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> He was typical of all Pakistanis in Britain, which is why they are being arrested for underage sex, rape, racism, murder and terrorism by the hundreds every month.
> 
> This is the islam we see in the UK today, along with beheadings in the street and beatings by gangs of muslim thugs.



Now racism against Pakistanis?  And I'm the one they call a bigot.

Such hypocrisy by Jews fuels anti-Semitism.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> But still Jews and all have the genetic fingerprint that says they are Jews, something that is missing from the Palestinians. This is why they refuse to have DNA testing done as it will show their true ancestry.



You liar, lots of the genetic evidence shows that many Jews have similar genetics to Palestinians.  That can't be done without knowing Palestinian DNA.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Got a link for that??
> ...






So were does it say that the Jews cant trace their ancestry back any further than 2 generations, when by simple DNA analysis they can go back 2,000 years or more


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> So were does it say that the Jews cant trace their ancestry back any further than 2 generations, when by simple DNA analysis they can go back 2,000 years or more



Genetic evidence says many, not all Jews have Levantine genetics.  The Levant is a very large place.  It includes Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, southern Turkey, Kurdistan, and northern and eastern Iraq.

Levantine genetics is not proof of genetics from Palestine.  Not unless you know shit about maps.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Victory will no doubt be able to translate the Arabic in this video.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkqnBxaZRMo]Hamas Minister: Palestinians are NOT Indigenous People to Israel ! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Got a link for that??
> ...


in 1922 Palestine included Jordan.  650,000 total Arabs in both what is now Jordan, Israel, West Bank, and Gaza.  In what is now Israel there were less than 300,000 Arabs.  The whole Palestinian cause is a fraud from top to bottom.

And as usual you post half truths and lies.  FROM YOUR LINK:

The Arab population of Palestine *doubled during the mandatory period from 670 000 in 1922 to over 1,2 million in 1948.*


JORDAN IS ARAB PALESTINE.  PERIOD END OF STORY:


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Gazans and Egyptians are indistinguishable peoples.  They are the same genetically, culturally, language, food, music, everything with their Arab brethren. * In fact, the Palestinians are nothing but invading Arabs from neighboring Arab countries such as Syria, and Jordan*.  Making them a "separate people" is the most ridiculous proposal in history.



Invaders from when, 600 AD?  That doesn't make them invaders but migrants and conquerers.

Just like the Israelis.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > He was typical of all Pakistanis in Britain, which is why they are being arrested for underage sex, rape, racism, murder and terrorism by the hundreds every month.
> ...



Meanwhile, of course, it appears that the Sunni Arabs have no problem with their brethren suicide and car bombing Shia all the time in Pakistan.  After all, there religious beliefs are somewhat different so that have to be killed because of this.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> And as usual you post half truths and lies.  FROM YOUR LINK:
> 
> The Arab population of Palestine *doubled during the mandatory period from 670 000 in 1922 to over 1,2 million in 1948.*



Arabs then and even now have a very high birthrate.  

I believe the article even mentions numbers like 6% a year.

The population increase rate for Arab Israelis is identical to Mandatory Palestine Arabs.  

Arab Israelis jumped from 200,000 in 1949 to 1.2 million in 2012.  Israel been letting in hundreds of thousands of Arab immigrants?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Shaarona said:
> ...


You seem unable to handle the most basic of facts:

Hitler and Arafat&#8217;s Uncle the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammed Amin al-Husseini


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

My bad, in 1949 there were 156,000 Arabs in Israel.

Today there are 1.6 million.  That's some phenomenal natural increase.

Israel been letting in hundreds of thousands of Arab immigrants so as to dilute the Jewish majority? 

Didn't think so.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Gazans and Egyptians are indistinguishable peoples.  They are the same genetically, culturally, language, food, music, everything with their Arab brethren. * In fact, the Palestinians are nothing but invading Arabs from neighboring Arab countries such as Syria, and Jordan*.  Making them a "separate people" is the most ridiculous proposal in history.
> ...


Nope.  Israelis are descendants of the ancient Israelites, who maintained a presence throughout the millennia.  Arabs are 20th century invaders.  Do you know what the word ARAB means?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> My bad, in 1949 there were 156,000 Arabs in Israel.
> 
> Today there are 1.6 million.  That's some phenomenal natural increase.
> 
> ...


when are you going to say anything factually true?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > And as usual you post half truths and lies.  FROM YOUR LINK:
> ...


Hoards of Arabs invaded the area when the Jews came, looking for work.  Even the British noted this, as they encouraged it.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Hoards of Arabs invaded the area when the Jews came, looking for work.  Even the British noted this, as they encouraged it.



How did the Arabs of Israel jump from 150,000 to 1.6 million in 65 years?

Israel has some secret Arab immigration program to dilute the Jewish majority?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Go ahead and tell us that the Israeli Arabs have a massive natural population increase rate while their grandparents didn't.

I want to hear you try to explain such logic.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Go ahead and tell us that the Israeli Arabs have a massive natural population increase rate while their grandparents didn't.
> 
> I want to hear you try to explain such logic.



Maybe they eat better.  Anyhow with this population jump, it only shows the readers what baloney it is when it is said that the Israeli Jews are committing genocide against the Arabs.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Maybe they eat better.  Anyhow with this population jump, it only shows the readers what baloney it is when it is said that the Israeli Jews are committing genocide against the Arabs.



There were 1.2 million Arabs in Palestine in 1946.  Only 156,000 remained in 1949.

This was due to ethnic cleansing which is a war crime.


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## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they eat better.  Anyhow with this population jump, it only shows the readers what baloney it is when it is said that the Israeli Jews are committing genocide against the Arabs.
> ...



More Jews had to leave Middle East countries.  Meanwhile Muslims will never consider the millions and millions of displaced people who had to leave Europe.  They only whine and whine about the Arabs who were mainly told to leave by the Arab leaders.  They wanted these Arabs out of the way so that they could come in and kill the Jews; and then those other Arabs could come back and take the property of the Jews.  Naturally, the readers will never see Victory on any forum discussing how the Muslims are busy killing other people because of their religious beliefs.  This seems to be a taboo subject, no matter how many innocent people are killed.  Evidently Victory and others like him do not consider this a crime against humanity as long as the Muslims are doing the killing.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> More Jews had to leave Middle East countries.  Meanwhile Muslims will never consider the millions and millions of displaced people who had to leave Europe.  They only whine and whine about the Arabs who were mainly told to leave by the Arab leaders.  They wanted these Arabs out of the way so that they could come in and kill the Jews; and then those other Arabs could come back and take the property of the Jews.  Naturally, the readers will never see Victory on any forum discussing how the Muslims are busy killing other people because of their religious beliefs.  This seems to be a taboo subject, no matter how many innocent people are killed.  Evidently Victory and others like him do not consider this a crime against humanity as long as the Muslims are doing the killing.



More Arabs were exiled from Israel than Jews exiled from the Muslim lands.


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## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

>>
I believe she's traveled...
and I believe aris2chat has traveled...

though their perspectives differ - their posts are interesting and informative..<<

My travels filled a few passports.  My mother owned a travel agency and my father, when he retired, later became of commercial pilot, among other things.  Not much traveling in the last 30 yrs though.  I have family that lives or works throughout so I stay in touch with life there.  I loved discovering new cultures and learning about people.  My interests not veer towards archaeology rather than anthropology, except in religion which was my major.
I had the luxury of a very broad education thanks to my parents.  Now I have a son that speaks more languages than I did.  I never stop learning, keeps the brain cells active.  As the eyes go, it is easier to read on the computer, much faster and more convenient.
Now my travels are via my computer.  Can't stand planes these days, but will suffer occasionally to see my grandkids.  My brother had go back for our father's memorials.  No way I could stand such long flights, or eating so much.  He had to deal with the business matters anyway.  We had already had a service here.
Yes, I expect my perspective it different.  We lived in different areas, thought crossed many of the same paths in out travels.  I expect we have know the same places at very different time.


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## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Maybe they eat better.  Anyhow with this population jump, it only shows the readers what baloney it is when it is said that the Israeli Jews are committing genocide against the Arabs.



Its also shows that the Arab population growth from 1922 to 1947 can very much be due simply to natural increase.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > More Jews had to leave Middle East countries.  Meanwhile Muslims will never consider the millions and millions of displaced people who had to leave Europe.  They only whine and whine about the Arabs who were mainly told to leave by the Arab leaders.  They wanted these Arabs out of the way so that they could come in and kill the Jews; and then those other Arabs could come back and take the property of the Jews.  Naturally, the readers will never see Victory on any forum discussing how the Muslims are busy killing other people because of their religious beliefs.  This seems to be a taboo subject, no matter how many innocent people are killed.  Evidently Victory and others like him do not consider this a crime against humanity as long as the Muslims are doing the killing.
> ...



Really???  It seems to me that more Jews had to leave their Middle East countries.  Furthermore, it was once figured out that if everyone was compensated, the Jews of the Middle East would be owed ten times as much as the "Palestinians."  Do you ever have anything to say about your friends who are busy killing others in different places in the Middle East and other locations?  I once read about a book by an honest Muslims, Khalid something or other, that Muslims are always in denial about what their fellow Muslims have done and are now doing.   Given what is actually happening today, all we see them doing is whining about Israel and nothing else.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Really???  It seems to me that more Jews had to leave their Middle East countries.  Furthermore, it was once figured out that if everyone was compensated, the Jews of the Middle East would be owed ten times as much as the "Palestinians."  Do you ever have anything to say about your friends who are busy killing others in different places in the Middle East and other locations?  I once read about a book by an honest Muslims, Khalid something or other, that Muslims are always in denial about what their fellow Muslims have done and are now doing.   Given what is actually happening today, all we see them doing is whining about Israel and nothing else.



That's because you dont know the facts or get your facts from dishonest websites.

More Arabs fled Israel.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they eat better.  Anyhow with this population jump, it only shows the readers what baloney it is when it is said that the Israeli Jews are committing genocide against the Arabs.
> ...



Absolutely as they pop out about 16 babies per wife.
That's where the supply of uneducated, starving, indoctrinated Arabs come from.
Rather sad.
Of course, they're doing this all over Europe which is why Europe getting pissed off at them.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Absolutely as they pop out about 16 babies per wife.
> That's where the supply of uneducated, starving, indoctrinated Arabs come from.
> Rather sad.
> Of course, they're doing this all over Europe which is why Europe getting pissed off at them.



Most Arabs in Israel are uneducated and starving?  This doesn't reflect well on Israel's education and medical system.   Discrimination is probably to blame.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Absolutely as they pop out about 16 babies per wife.
> ...



We loathe having Jewish children blown up in the classroom or recess.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Really???  It seems to me that more Jews had to leave their Middle East countries.  Furthermore, it was once figured out that if everyone was compensated, the Jews of the Middle East would be owed ten times as much as the "Palestinians."  Do you ever have anything to say about your friends who are busy killing others in different places in the Middle East and other locations?  I once read about a book by an honest Muslims, Khalid something or other, that Muslims are always in denial about what their fellow Muslims have done and are now doing.   Given what is actually happening today, all we see them doing is whining about Israel and nothing else.
> ...



Yes we certainly know (according to the Muslims of course).  Were you there?  Speaking of dishonest websites, the Arab propaganda sites are something to behold!!!


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they eat better.  Anyhow with this population jump, it only shows the readers what baloney it is when it is said that the Israeli Jews are committing genocide against the Arabs.
> ...



Actually it shows that they should practice birth control.  I remember about the time of the last Intifada, there was an interview with an Arab woman.  She was bemoaning the fact that she was pregnant with her tenth child and did not know how she was going to feed all her children.  Meanwhile, you probably are unaware of it because  you just want to moan and groan about Israel, that the biggest problem facing the world today is population growth.

Say, does anyone remember the story about that "Palestinian" guy where one or two of his four wives had just given birth to his 54th child, and he claimed that he was aiming for a 100?  No doubt there are other men just like him living in Israel with more than one wife and having a slew of kids with each wife.  And, Israel has to pay benefits for all of these people.


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## MaryL (Feb 13, 2014)

Of course, It's like  anti-Islamic sentiment has nothing to do with 9/11 or suicide bombers, either. Let's put that in perspective. Then think twice about this issue. The drive to create  Israel was driven by  European anti-Semitism to begin with.  Auschwitz, Birkenau, who and what made that happen?  Muslims want to destroy Israel. I think of Syria now, that corner   Muslims Arabs painted themselves into,  and who are they going to blame that mess on?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> We loathe having Jewish children blown up in the classroom or recess.



You mean "Israeli children", right?

Or are the lives of Jewish Israelis more valuable to you than Arab Israelis.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Shaarona said:
> ...





Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they eat better.  Anyhow with this population jump, it only shows the readers what baloney it is when it is said that the Israeli Jews are committing genocide against the Arabs.
> ...



Birth rate is nearly 8x the average.  Over population gone amok.  The globe, let along the region cannot support so many.  Water is finite, it might circulate the globe but there is still only so much on our planet.  People with limited resources cannot provide for so many children.  Child mortality and medical care means more children live to adulthood.  Disease, famine, poverty, dangers of childbirth and even war in the past kept population growth in check.  Places like china force families to have only one child.
Most countries it is about 1.7.  In religious cultures it is 3.  Education, illiteracy is part of the problem.  Apart from a global pandemic that would cut the population by at least a third, we will have out grown the resources of this planet far too soon.
Sad fact the world has to face.


----------



## MaryL (Feb 13, 2014)

Assad has used nerve gas against his own people. It's a muddled  issue, Syria. Gassing people is a rather extreme measure. Gassing, degradation, horror, Muslims seem to take it as a matter of course when they  do it to each other. But they are outraged when it happens to them...by a non Muslim? Then  they are outraged and commit mass horrors in revenge at the slightest twinge.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Takes a real idiot to think Israeli policies don't affect anti-Semitism.

An idiot full of dishonesty or very wishful thinking.

But I think this European was just trying to kiss some Israeli ass.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



What is it about religion and the "be fruitful and multiply" thing?

But there is another factor in many of those places - children are the only Social Security system they have - the more children (esp male children) you can bring into adulthood, the better chances you will have being taken care of in old age.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Takes a real idiot to think Israeli policies don't affect anti-Semitism.
> 
> An idiot full of dishonesty or very wishful thinking.
> 
> But I think this European was just trying to kiss some Israeli ass.



It may effect anti-semitism, in those who are already anti-semitic - but I haven't seen any actual evidence that it causes anti-semitism in otherwise unbiased people.  Many people who are sharply critical of Israeli policies do not attribute it to Jews generically.

Anti-semitism has an old history and it's never completely disappeared - it just goes dormant until events like economic stress, or political instability brings it out in the open again.  Israel's actions might be one of those events - but I don't see it as causal.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > We loathe having Jewish children blown up in the classroom or recess.
> ...



Jewish and Christian...They are far less likely to become irrational suicide bombers.
Does my honesty disturb you?
Good; it should.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> >>
> I believe she's traveled...
> and I believe aris2chat has traveled...
> 
> ...



You sound as if you've had a fascinating life - I enjoy your posts!


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The Talmudic discussion on this phrase...
[1] A couple should have at least two children.
[2] A couple is required to have at least one child of each gender.

Moshe had two sons; no daughters.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Takes a real idiot to think Israeli policies don't affect anti-Semitism.
> 
> An idiot full of dishonesty or very wishful thinking.
> 
> But I think this European was just trying to kiss some Israeli ass.




It takes a real idiot (without honesty) to think that the Muslim actions against others don't affect the thinking of those who see what is happening.   Are you trying to tell us that you are proud of your own little ass?  Don't you think that your own little ass is going to spread with you being on here day and night around the clock?  Go out on the streets of American and ask the passerbys if they like your cute ass and if they like what the Muslims are doing to others.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Takes a real idiot to think Israeli policies don't affect anti-Semitism.
> ...



My opinion is that Moslems are better at multiplying than being warriors.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Jewish and Christian...They are far less likely to become irrational suicide bombers.
> Does my honesty disturb you?
> Good; it should.



So you don't care about Muslim Israeli children.  I see.

Such attitudes fuel anti-Semitism and lead to dead Jews.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> It takes a real idiot (without honesty) to think that the Muslim actions against others don't affect the thinking of those who see what is happening.   Are you trying to tell us that you are proud of *your own little ass*?  Don't you think that *your own little ass *is going to spread with you being on here day and night around the clock?  Go out on the streets of American and ask the passerbys if they like *your cute ass *and if they like what the Muslims are doing to others.



The topic of this thread is how Israeli actions fuel anti-Semitism, not my incredibly perfect ass.  

By the way, thanks for noticing.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Jewish and Christian...They are far less likely to become irrational suicide bombers.
> ...



You're so right as the Arab nations have so loved Jews for so many centuries.
We're just blowing all that good will away, aren't we? 

Let's put it this way...
I'm not callous, but prove to me that you won't blow each other up and I'll start trusting you a little.
It's going to take a generation...a tiny amount of time the Moslem psyche is genetically incapable of dealing with.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Jewish and Christian...They are far less likely to become irrational suicide bombers.
> ...




Yes, we see now much you care about the children in the world today.  While you are whining about Muslim Israeli children who have it pretty darn good, especially when compared to the children in the other Middle East countries, you don't seem to care one bit about all the children being murdered in the Muslim world by suicide and homicide bombers, and many of these Muslim children have been killed by Muslims of different sects.  For your information, Americans are very generous when it comes to giving to charities who help children who are in need, even when the children are Muslims.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> You're so right as the Arab nations have so loved Jews for so many centuries.
> We're just blowing all that good will away, aren't we?
> 
> Let's put it this way...
> ...



Why should Arabs love Jews after what Israel has done to them?

Why should the Arabs love Jews when folks like you make racist statements against them?


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

MaryL said:


> Assad has used nerve gas against his own people. It's a muddled  issue, Syria. Gassing people is a rather extreme measure. Gassing, degradation, horror, Muslims seem to take it as a matter of course when they  do it to each other. But they are outraged when it happens to them...by a non Muslim? Then  they are outraged and commit mass horrors in revenge at the slightest twinge.



....and at least 400 deaths this month from barrel bombs dropped on his own people.

Time to shove him off his hill top and get some new syrians to govern for all the people not just the few.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You're so right as the Arab nations have so loved Jews for so many centuries.
> ...



Ummm...What came first, The State of Israel or the Murderous Mohammed?


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

So true, Aris, about overpopulation going amok.  There will be too many people in this world if changes aren't made very swifty with regard to having fewer children.  There have been droughts all over the world, especially in countries which export food to poor countries.  Even here in California, there is a drought and the farmers are very worried about what will happen.  California exports a lot of the food grown in this state.  Meanwhile, everyone should read this series and see what the world is up against, so it is rather silly for some people to brag about how many babies are being born into their culture.

Population - Beyond 7 Billion - latimes.com


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You're so right as the Arab nations have so loved Jews for so many centuries.
> ...



Why should Christians love Muslims?  Why should Hindus love Muslims?  Do you think the Muslims have actually been kind to these two groups?  Action speaks louder than words, or "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never harm me."  When you think what the Arabs have done to each other in the Middle East, it is rather ludicrous to be telling the readers how bad the Jews have been to Arabs.  I guess there are some Arabs who conveniently close their eyes to what their fellow Arabs are doing in the Middle East no matter how many dead bodies are lying in the streets.  However, you have to give them an A for their output on the forums no matter how much baloney their effort is full of.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Sally, we are dealing with an individual living in an alternate timeline where no injustice has ever been wielded by an Arab...ever...not even one.
In fact, even their phartz have been historically pleasant.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Ummm...What came first, The State of Israel or the Murderous Mohammed?



Joshua and David were pretty bloodthirsty and ruthless leaders.  They predate Muhammed by a few months I think.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Ummm...What came first, The State of Israel or the Murderous Mohammed?
> ...



First of all, please explain "bloodthirsty and ruthless".
I'm sure you can point to the verses surrounding their military exploits.

Second...Did they sweep across Europe, Asia and the Middle East?

Just answer the questions.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Ummm...What came first, The State of Israel or the Murderous Mohammed?
> ...




Did you ever take a class in ancient history in s school?  In olden days people were pretty violent.  Maybe you didn't learn about all the wars -- such as the Punic War and the  Peloponnesian War.  Meanwhile, in the modern world of today, the 21st century, can you tell us the main group who is killing people because of their religious beliefs?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Did you ever take a class in ancient history in s school?  In olden days people were pretty violent.  Maybe you didn't learn about all the wars -- such as the Punic War and the  Peloponnesian War.  Meanwhile, in the modern world of today, the 21st century, can you tell us the main group who is killing people because of their religious beliefs?



So you're saying Muhammed being a bloodthirsty savage was cool with you?

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 13, 2014)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > >>
> ...


Thankfully, Aris has been educating us heathens for a dozen or more years about the Mid-east.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



"bloodthirsty and ruthless" infer uncontrollable violent natures in one's own self-interest.
In other words, Victory67 is attempting to attribute Moslem characteristics to two Jews.

He will not, of course, point to the verses where Yehoshua and David are commanded by God and circumstances to go to battle for the benefit of the Children of Israel.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> First of all, please explain "bloodthirsty and ruthless".
> I'm sure you can point to the verses surrounding their military exploits.
> 
> Second...Did they sweep across Europe, Asia and the Middle East?
> ...



No, just the land of Canaan.  Which didn't belong to him.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> "bloodthirsty and ruthless" infer uncontrollable violent natures in one's own self-interest.
> In other words, Victory67 is attempting to attribute Moslem characteristics to two Jews.
> 
> He will not, of course, point to the verses where Yehoshua and David are commanded by God and circumstances to go to battle for the benefit of the Children of Israel.



More racism from you huh?  Seems to be a trend.

Your hatred towards non-Jews fuels anti-Semitism, my friend.

It gets Jews killed.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Did you ever take a class in ancient history in s school?  In olden days people were pretty violent.  Maybe you didn't learn about all the wars -- such as the Punic War and the  Peloponnesian War.  Meanwhile, in the modern world of today, the 21st century, can you tell us the main group who is killing people because of their religious beliefs?
> ...



Islam is, or has become, a genetalia centered religion.
If it isn't then stop the 70 virgins nonsense.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > "bloodthirsty and ruthless" infer uncontrollable violent natures in one's own self-interest.
> ...



Where are the verses?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Islam is, or has become, *a genetalia centered religion*.
> If it isn't then stop the 70 virgins nonsense.



Male infant circumcision is a required religious right for Jews.

Not for Muslims.  I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish but its not working.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You're so right as the Arab nations have so loved Jews for so many centuries.
> ...



It is part of their teaching of acceptance of those of the book, other that believe in one god.
Peace, tolerance, justice, patience are all part of the teaching of the quran.

Muslims should embrace the jews as brothers instead of try to commit racial and religious genocide.  Medical science from Israel has identified a genetic bone marrow malfunction among arabs that kills too many children.  They are treating neutrophil disorder with stem cells.  Israelis saving palestinian and arab lives.
Technology, water..... Israel is more involved in saving lives and making life better than in terrorizing and killing, like some in the region.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Islam is, or has become, *a genetalia centered religion*.
> ...



It's called "Die for Allah and get eternal pussy."
How ridiculous can a religious motivation get?
We also don't murder each other or members of other religions because we don't get our way.
We also don't try to explain on forums why murdering people causes people to get pissed off at you, and in return Arabs will die.

You are trash.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> It's called "Die for Allah and get eternal pussy."
> How ridiculous can a religious motivation get?
> We also don't murder each other or members of other religions because we don't get our way.
> We also don't try to explain on forums why murdering people causes people to get pissed off at you, and in return Arabs will die.
> ...





Phoenall said:


> He has lost, he knows he has lost and *he shows it in true commie fashion by hurling insults*.



How is that any better than "To become part of my Holy People you must remove the skin around the top of your penis"?


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Islam is, or has become, *a genetalia centered religion*.
> ...



Muslims are circumcised, not all as infants but before the age of nine.  As infants there is less panic and less pain memory.  Easier to care for as infants.  Too many boys die of infections after circumcision.  It is more dangerous in men and done under anesthesia as a surgical procedure.  For infants it is less than 15 minutes in a doctor's office and heals within the week with proper diaper change and care.  Babies don't cry from the procedure, they cry from being undiapered and temporarily restrained in a odd position.
Far easier and safer in infancy.  Healthier in life to be circumcised, less infection and disease.
By the way, Israel is responsible for a new quicker form of circumcision used for adults in africa to prevent HIV/AIDS.  Not up on the particular use, but have read a bit about it.  It still, like any medical procedure, has some risks and requires some care during healing but I believe it is done with just a local anesthesia.  Even ear piercings and tattoos have risks.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Islam is, or has become, *a genetalia centered religion*.
> ...



Are you really telling us that Muslim men are not circumcised (many at the age of 8)?  Maybe they forgot about you.  

Male circumcision - the Islamic View / www.convertingtoislam.com


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> By the way, Israel is responsible for a new quicker form of circumcision used for adults in africa to prevent HIV/AIDS.  Not up on the particular use, but have read a bit about it.  It still, like any medical procedure, has some risks and requires some care during healing but I believe it is done with just a local anesthesia.  Even ear piercings and tattoos have risks.



Israel does circumcision with a local anaesthetic?  What do the Rabbis have to say about this?

If I had my way all circumcision in the USA would be illegal without a local pain killer.  Only a sadist wants to make poor little babies suffer such pain if there is an alternative.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



To Victory67--When you say incorrect info, like Muslims don't require circumcision, and someone points out your mistake, you should acknowledge it and apologize for your ignorance.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> To Victory67--When you say incorrect info, like Muslims don't require circumcision, and someone points out your mistake, you should acknowledge it and apologize for your ignorance.



Sunni Islam[edit]

Amongst Ulema (Muslim legal scholars), there are differing opinions about the compulsion of circumcision in Sharia (Islamic law). Imams Ab&#363; &#7716;an&#299;fa, founder of the Hanafi school of Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), and Malik ibn Anas, maintain that circumcision is a Sunnah Mu'akkadahnot obligatory but highly recommended. The Shafi`i and Hanbali schools see it as binding on all Muslims

Shia Islam[edit]

Most Shia traditions regard the practice as obligatory.

Quranists[edit]

There is a Quran alone movement within Islam that rejects making male circumcision a religious requirement due to the fact it is not mentioned in any verse in the Qur'an

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khitan_(circumcision)




I have nothing to apologize for as circumcision is clearly not obligatory in Islam.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, Israel is responsible for a new quicker form of circumcision used for adults in africa to prevent HIV/AIDS.  Not up on the particular use, but have read a bit about it.  It still, like any medical procedure, has some risks and requires some care during healing but I believe it is done with just a local anesthesia.  Even ear piercings and tattoos have risks.
> ...



You know why the baby cries during the bris?
It doesn't want to be held down.

On the issue of if you had your way...
All Jews would have been wiped off the face of the earth.
You expose yourself with every post.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> You know why the baby cries during the bris?
> It doesn't want to be held down.
> 
> On the issue of if you had your way...
> ...



If you had your way all non-Jews in Israel would be killed or packed into cattle cars for a long trip to Mecca.  

Your lies increase anti-Semitism.  Better stop before it hurts someone.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hoards of Arabs invaded the area when the Jews came, looking for work.  Even the British noted this, as they encouraged it.
> ...


Yeah, isn't that something.  This Jewish genocide on those poor Palestinians seems to be causing them to multiply like rats!


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, Israel is responsible for a new quicker form of circumcision used for adults in africa to prevent HIV/AIDS.  Not up on the particular use, but have read a bit about it.  It still, like any medical procedure, has some risks and requires some care during healing but I believe it is done with just a local anesthesia.  Even ear piercings and tattoos have risks.
> ...


Apparently Defeat67 isn't aware that Muslims circumcise their men in the most brutal barbaric ways, even up to their teen years.  Why are all Pali supporters so ignorant?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > To Victory67--When you say incorrect info, like Muslims don't require circumcision, and someone points out your mistake, you should acknowledge it and apologize for your ignorance.
> ...


Muslims consider Mohammad related to Ishmael - Abraham's son, and that's why circumcision is a requirement to be a Muslim.  But then again, what would you know?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You know why the baby cries during the bris?
> ...


Nah, killing all non Muslims is what Muslims do.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, Israel is responsible for a new quicker form of circumcision used for adults in africa to prevent HIV/AIDS.  Not up on the particular use, but have read a bit about it.  It still, like any medical procedure, has some risks and requires some care during healing but I believe it is done with just a local anesthesia.  Even ear piercings and tattoos have risks.
> ...



On males in africa it is not a religious matter, but one of health.
Mohels can use numbing agents on the foreskin before the bris.  It is not against jewish law, it is just not "traditional" among the ultra orthodox.  
There are a dozen ways for a mohel to preform a bris, it depends on what the parents want and who they hire.  Mohels can be there for the ceremony of the procedure while a doctor actually does the cutting while an infant is still at the hospital before being released.


----------



## Sally (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > To Victory67--When you say incorrect info, like Muslims don't require circumcision, and someone points out your mistake, you should acknowledge it and apologize for your ignorance.
> ...




Looks like someone really knows the nitty gritty about the Koran.  Must have been a top student in his madrassa.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



No he's not.

They were all pretty damn bloody, brutal, and ruthless in those days and if you didn't follow the right brand of God - you were screwed.  No one's hands are clean in that regard.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You know why the baby cries during the bris?
> ...



My friends in the Northern Settlements love the Christian Arabs; they're great neighbors.
It's the Moslems hypnotized by propaganda that cause the problems.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 13, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



It's all in there, if people choose to follow it.  It's not that much different than the other holy books - you can choose the violence or you can choose the non-violence.



> *Muslims should embrace the jews as brothers instead of try to commit racial and religious genocide.*  Medical science from Israel has identified a genetic bone marrow malfunction among arabs that kills too many children.  They are treating neutrophil disorder with stem cells.  Israelis saving palestinian and arab lives.
> Technology, water..... Israel is more involved in saving lives and making life better than in terrorizing and killing, like some in the region.



Agree...in many ways they are really more similar than different.  There are a lot of peaceful and cooperative endeavors that go on but are largely ignored by the media.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Ever see how the WBJs get so darned fat after serving time in an Israeli prison.
Not to mention the free Medical and Dental Care.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Nah, killing all non Muslims is what Muslims do.



Such outright bigotry towards Muslims leads to dead Jews.

Bite your tongue, young man.  Why do you insist on fanning the flames of hatred?

You think anti-Semitism is a fucking joke?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, killing all non Muslims is what Muslims do.
> ...



It's a joke, not a "fucking joke".


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Apparently Defeat67 isn't aware that Muslims circumcise their men in the most brutal barbaric ways, even up to their teen years.  Why are all Pali supporters so ignorant?



There is no non-brutal or non-barbaric way to circumcize an 8 day old boy for non-medical reasons.

There are only degrees of brutality and barbarity.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Sorry that I proved you wrong but it is what it is.

Circumcision isn't even mentioned in the Koran.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > To Victory67--When you say incorrect info, like Muslims don't require circumcision, and someone points out your mistake, you should acknowledge it and apologize for your ignorance.
> ...



Because circumcision was also practised by all prophets, traditionally it has been in practice throughout the history among the followers of Prophet Ibraheem and establishes an Islamic connection to the ritual.

Allah ordered the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to follow the religion of Ibraheem (peace be upon him). Allah says in the Holy Qur'an:

"Then We inspired you: 'Follow the religion of Ibraheem, the upright in Faith'." [The Holy Qur'an 16:123]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The Prophet Ibrahim circumcised himself when he was eighty years old." [Related by Al-Bukhari, Muslim & Ahmad]

Although circumcision is not one of the Five Pillars of the Faith, which consist of: the profession of faith, daily prayer, fasting at Ramadan, giving money to the poor (charity), and the pilgrimage to Mecca. However, this ritual is an act of purification and connects the person to the Prophet Ibraheem (peace be upon him) and his religion, Islam.

The Qur'an says: "Allah does not want to place burden on you. Rather, He wants to purify you and to complete His favours to you so that you may be grateful." [The Holy Qur'an 5:7]

A Hadith related by Bukhari reads: "The practices related to Fitrah (the nature) are five: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and removing the hair of the armpits."

Abraham was 99 years old. God appeared to him and said, 'I am God Almighty. Walk before Me and be perfect. I may make you father of many nations. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin. This shall be the mark of the covenant between Me and you. Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised on the flesh of his foreskin. His son Ishmael was thirteen years old when the flesh of his foreskin was circumcised. On that very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised. And all the males of his household. [Genesis, chapter 17]


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, killing all non Muslims is what Muslims do.
> ...



Hmmm...
I'm not a secular Jew.
I'm not a Humanist aka Bleeding Heart Liberal.

But what are you?
You are...
If you do not agree with me there will be Dead Jews!
Does that make you a Wanna Be Totalitarian Dictator?
Or just another frustrated Islamo Fascist who would murder his own kin to get his way.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Circumcision is clearly not compulsary in all of Islam.

It appears to be for the Shia but not for the Sunni.

Vast majority of Muslims are Sunni.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Hmmm...
> I'm not a secular Jew.
> I'm not a Humanist aka Bleeding Heart Liberal.
> 
> ...



Well then stop making racist comments about Arabs, and start condemning your kin that do!

This thread is about actions and comments that fuel anti-Semitism and so far you have blood on your hands.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Circumcision is clearly not compulsary in all of Islam.
> 
> It appears to be for the Shia but not for the Sunni.
> 
> Vast majority of Muslims are Sunni.



Who are very busy these days killing the Shia.
But that's OK, because they're not JOOOOS!


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Who are very busy these days killing the Shia.
> But that's OK, because they're not JOOOOS!



Save your childishness for someone who cares.

I sir do not.  

This thread is about anti-Semitism and the people like you that fuel it.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, killing all non Muslims is what Muslims do.
> ...


No I think the claims you make are a joke.  Muslims are murdering people all over the world, blowing up churches, not a day goes by without news of a Muslim massacring large numbers of people, Olympic athletes are being targeted by Muslim savages, and you're busy demonizing Jews just because they have the audacity to defend themselves against these savages. 

"It causes anti semetism". LOL


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Circumcision is clearly not compulsary in all of Islam.
> 
> It appears to be for the Shia but not for the Sunni.
> 
> Vast majority of Muslims are Sunni.


You clearly know nothing of Islam or Muslim culture.  If you're not circumcised you're not a Muslim.  The only difference is it not compulsory to circumcise when a male baby is eight days old, rather they do it later on a most barbaric medieval fashion.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Who are very busy these days killing the Shia.
> ...



Anti-Semitism is an artifact of misinformation.
In fact, the Talmud states that Eisav hates Yaakov in order to separate us from superficial, uneducated people.
The descendants of Yishmael will repent just as Yishmael gave precedence to Yitzchaz at Avraham's funeral.

BTW, YOU brought up the Shia and Sunni on an Anti-Semitism thread.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> No I think the claims you make are a joke.  Muslims are murdering people all over the world, blowing up churches, not a day goes by without news of a Muslim massacring large numbers of people, and you're busy demonizing Jews just because they have the audacity to defend themselves against these savages.
> 
> "It causes anti semetism". LOL



"demonizing Jews because they have the audacity to defend themselves".


Is that what we are talking about?  Jews defending themselves?

Is that what racist and fascist comments against Arabs and Muslims are?  Self-defense?

Is that what justifying ethnic cleansing of innocent people is?  Self-defense?



You sir are either blind or a liar.  Take your pick.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm...
> ...



Blood?
You are equating evacuation with murder?
How very Arab of you.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Anti-Semitism is an artifact of misinformation.
> In fact, the Talmud states that Eisav hates Yaakov in order to separate us from superficial, uneducated people.
> The descendants of Yishmael will repent just as Yishmael gave precedence to Yitzchaz at Avraham's funeral.
> 
> BTW, YOU brought up the Shia and Sunni on an Anti-Semitism thread.



Excuse me?  You're the guy who started this whole little diversion into things unrelated to anti-Semitism and its causes & fuels.



Indeependent said:


> Islam is, or has become, a genetalia centered religion.
> If it isn't then stop the 70 virgins nonsense.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Anti-Semitism is an artifact of misinformation.
> ...



Here's your bottom line...
Give back all the land or the world will hate and kill Jews.
Guess what the reality is...the spread of Islam and the demand for compliance for Sharia law is resulting in quite the opposite.

Are you a terrorist or do you simply support terrorism?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Actually, in 50 years I've only been affected by anti-Semitism 3x in mild forms.  America is a great nation.  But on this Board, I've seen the worst anti-Semitism, more than I've ever encountered in real life.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Here's your bottom line...
> Give back all the land or the world will hate and kill Jews.
> Guess what the reality is...the spread of Islam and the demand for compliance for Sharia law is resulting in quite the opposite.
> 
> Are you a terrorist or do you simply support terrorism?



Your ignorant oversimplication of the issue doesn't surprise me.  Nor does your false argument.

No, I am not a terrorist.  Do you think all black people are janitors?

I think we've proven the OP to be correct.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

This conversation has run its course.  Its now been proven again and again that Israeli actions fuel anti-Semitism.  And more importantly that racism and bigotry by Israelis and their supporters leads to dead Jews.

Im out.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> This conversation has run its course.  Its now been proven again and again that Israeli actions fuel anti-Semitism.  And more importantly that racism and bigotry by Israelis and their supporters leads to dead Jews.
> 
> Im out.



Bye.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



There are no mohels in Islam.  Anyone with a penknife or broken piece of glass can preform a circumcision, male or female.  Fathers often are the ones to circumcise their sons, or a grandfather.  
Both male and female circumcision are in the hadith, A'isha's nieces were both circumcised.  Most imam will tell you they have done away with the practice as not required, but too many still think it is a requirement of their religion.  Even the elder women who converted..
An old woman from Kufa, the grandmother of 'Ali ibn Ghurab, reported that Umm al-Muhajir said, "I was captured with some girls from Byzantium. 'Uthman offered us Islam, but only myself and one other girl accepted Islam. 'Uthman said, 'Go and circumcise them and purify them.'" (Al-Bukhari)


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > No I think the claims you make are a joke.  Muslims are murdering people all over the world, blowing up churches, not a day goes by without news of a Muslim massacring large numbers of people, and you're busy demonizing Jews just because they have the audacity to defend themselves against these savages.
> ...


Ethnic cleansing. Please provide proof of ethnic cleansing. According to your own numbers Palestinians have multiplied ten times faster than rats.   Get a life.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Blood?
> ...


Doesn't take much for Muslims to go on a killing rampage does it. 

Sometimes even sneezing the wrong way is enough. You should know....


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> This conversation has run its course.  Its now been proven again and again that Israeli actions fuel anti-Semitism.  And more importantly that racism and bigotry by Israelis and their supporters leads to dead Jews.
> 
> Im out.


You were out after the first or second post.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Ethnic cleansing. Please provide proof of ethnic cleansing. According to your own numbers Palestinians have multiplied ten times faster than rats.   Get a life.



Dumbass, there were more than a million Arabs in Israel in 1947.  In 1949 only around 150,000 remained, many of them forced out by Zionist forces during the war.

And then after hostilities ended tens of thousands more near the border areas were forced out by the Israelis.

That's called "ethnic cleansing".


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ethnic cleansing. Please provide proof of ethnic cleansing. According to your own numbers Palestinians have multiplied ten times faster than rats.   Get a life.
> ...


Huh?  How many Palestinians as Israeli citizens today, plus Gaza and the West Bank?  Not including the bogus ones who are claiming "right to return" plus those in Jordan. How many MILLIONS is that?  Haha ha.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ethnic cleansing. Please provide proof of ethnic cleansing. According to your own numbers Palestinians have multiplied ten times faster than rats.   Get a life.
> ...


Did you get those figures from Brittanica? If you did, I'll believe it.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 13, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


No he pulled them out of his orifice. In this very thread he posted something with 650,000 Palestinians in 1922 who became 1.2 million by 1948 because of the Arab invasion. These jokers are sure fun to play with. LOL.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> No he pulled them out of his orifice. In this very thread he posted something with 650,000 Palestinians in 1922 who became 1.2 million by 1948 because of the Arab invasion. These jokers are sure fun to play with. LOL.



No dumbass, British research and research by Jews shows that their growth was mostly natural.

Just as the growth in Arab Israeli numbers from 1949 to 2013 was completely natural.

I don't expect you to understand this as math isn't your strong suit but I expect you to try.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Did you get those figures from Brittanica? If you did, I'll believe it.



I got the numbers from British research.  They ran the damn place for 30 years remember?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > No he pulled them out of his orifice. In this very thread he posted something with 650,000 Palestinians in 1922 who became 1.2 million by 1948 because of the Arab invasion. These jokers are sure fun to play with. LOL.
> ...



1.2 million Arabs running off their land must have been quite a sight.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Huh?  How many Palestinians as Israeli citizens today, plus Gaza and the West Bank?  Not including the bogus ones who are claiming "right to return" plus those in Jordan. How many MILLIONS is that?  Haha ha.



Are you saying Israel has allowed in hundreds of thousands of Arabs, so as to dilute the Jewish majority?  You're such a dumbass!


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> 1.2 million Arabs running off their land must have been quite a sight.



You think ethnic cleansing of non-Jews is funny, don't you?


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > No he pulled them out of his orifice. In this very thread he posted something with 650,000 Palestinians in 1922 who became 1.2 million by 1948 because of the Arab invasion. These jokers are sure fun to play with. LOL.
> ...



Doubling a population in 20 yrs is not natural, but immigration of arabs does make sense.
Not natural "palestinians".  Mandate only required a two year residence in the mandate to qualify or the term palestinian.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Doubling a population in 20 yrs is not natural, but immigration of arabs does make sense.  Not natural "palestinians".  Mandate only required a two year residence in the mandate to qualify or the term palestinian.



The Israeli Arab population has gone from 156,000 in 1949 to 1,600,000 in 2013.

That's a 1,000% increase in 65 years.

How do you explain that?  Has Israel secretly been letting in hundreds of thousands of Arabs in order to dilute the Jewish majority?

Palestinians clearly have a very high natural increase rate.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > 1.2 million Arabs running off their land must have been quite a sight.
> ...



Just as funny as the historic and current ethnic cleansing of Jews and Christians from Arab nations.
Of course, Jews and Christians weren't marching in their streets screaming for Islamic blood.
You just don't get it.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Just as funny as the historic and current ethnic cleansing of Jews and Christians from Arab nations.
> Of course, Jews and Christians weren't marching in their streets screaming for Islamic blood.
> You just don't get it.



You're the only one laughing about such things.

But if someone laughs about dead Jews, you cry "anti-Semitism".


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Just as funny as the historic and current ethnic cleansing of Jews and Christians from Arab nations.
> ...



You are insistent that certain behavior will result in dead Jews, regardless of where these Jews reside.
You are trash by association.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Doubling a population in 20 yrs is not natural, but immigration of arabs does make sense.  Not natural "palestinians".  Mandate only required a two year residence in the mandate to qualify or the term palestinian.
> ...



Not by natural population growth, births.  Israel absorbed the jews forced out from the muslim world and those from elsewhere in the world.  They have managed to still provide and grow their economy despite the increase of population.


----------



## Indofred (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Of course Isreali policies increase or decrease anti-Semitism.
> 
> Just as American policies increase or decrease hatred of the USA.
> 
> Its absurd to believe otherwise.



I have to agree with this post.
Whilst I'm easily intelligent enough to know the vicious, evil, murdering bastards of the Israeli government and IDF don't act for all Jews, there are plenty of thick fuckers out there that have insufficient brain power to make a cup of fucking tea. Those demi evolved humans are willing to believe any shit as some sort of compensation for their pathetic lives, inability to get an erection and/or show their gayness in public.

Of course, those same dumb sods, or at least those on the other side of the fence, tend to spout the same total bollocks regarding Muslims.

I see it this way, you can't really do much about being a fat, pathetic sod but you can take viagra for the second problem and, as far as the third goes, come out and be who you really are.
There's nothing wrong with being gay.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 13, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Not by natural population growth, births.  Israel absorbed the jews forced out from the muslim world and those from elsewhere in the world.  They have managed to still provide and grow their economy despite the increase of population.



The Arab Israeli population has grown by more than 1,000% for one single reason.

Their births outpace their deaths.  That's it.

If their population can grow from 156,000 to 1,600,000 from 1949 to 2013, then their population can grow from 600,000 in 1922 to 1,400,000 in 1949.

Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Unless of course you have abandoned logic and reason.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 13, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think they made this forum for one person to post day and night spewing out their hate against Israel and threatening what is going to happen to the Jews like you do, especially with all the murders by Muslims of innocent people of different faiths that are happening elsewhere.  I am beginning to think that with all the time you have spent here from morning to night (maybe on a break given by your madrassa) that you must be sitting on a porta potty.  Go get some fresh air.  It might clear your head.
> ...



Pardon me, but your "Dead Jews" phraseology is a rather explicit encouragement of murdering Jews regardless of domicile.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Huh?  How many Palestinians as Israeli citizens today, plus Gaza and the West Bank?  Not including the bogus ones who are claiming "right to return" plus those in Jordan. How many MILLIONS is that?  Haha ha.
> ...


Wow, the intelligence just oozes out of you.  Some Arabs decided to stay and enjoy being Israeli citizens.  They now comprise part of the 1.8 million Arab citizens inside Israel.  The ones that decided to join the Arab countries in destroying Israel are now in the West Bank and Gaza, and they've multiplied like rats.  So your claim of ethnic cleansing is just like this notion of a "Palestinian nation"...A HOAX.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > 1.2 million Arabs running off their land must have been quite a sight.
> ...


No your claims are funny and ridiculous.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Did you get those figures from Brittanica? If you did, I'll believe it.
> ...



Ran it into the ground, I may add.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Did you get those figures from Brittanica? If you did, I'll believe it.
> ...



The same British that reported a mass invasion of Arabs into the region during that same period?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> The same British that reported a mass invasion of Arabs into the region during that same period?



Sorry dumbass, but the Brits didn't report 600,000 Arabs moving to Palestine during the Mandate period.  At most it was 100,000, which means most of their massive growth was natural.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Wow, the intelligence just oozes out of you.  Some Arabs decided to stay and enjoy being Israeli citizens.  They now comprise part of the 1.8 million Arab citizens inside Israel.  The ones that decided to join the Arab countries in destroying Israel are now in the West Bank and Gaza, and they've multiplied like rats.  So your claim of ethnic cleansing is just like this notion of a "Palestinian nation"...*A HOAX*.



Just as Neo-Nazis call the Holocaust a "hoax".  Interesting how low you are willing to go.

1.2 million down to 150,000 Arabs is ethnic cleansing.  Thank God they didn't complete the job but I know that brings tears to your eyes.


----------



## Shaarona (Feb 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Decided to stay?

They had lived there for 2,000 years.. Some families had lived in the same homes and farmed the same patches of land for 500 years.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The same British that reported a mass invasion of Arabs into the region during that same period?
> ...


No actually, read what Churchill and his underlings said about the mass invasion of Arabs as the Jews started to come.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 14, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


Ho ho ho.  Now that was funny. No such thing as Arabs or Islam 2000 years ago in ancient Israel. The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians today are 20th and 21st century invaders from neighboring Arab lands. That is a fact.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> No actually, read what Churchill and his underlings said about the mass invasion of Arabs as the Jews started to come.



Churchill didn't research the issue.  Others did and have published their findings.

The idea of most Palestinians being descended from migrants during the Mandate period is a myth created by Zionists.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Ho ho ho.  Now that was funny. No such thing as Arabs or Islam 2000 years ago. Te Arabs who call themselves Palestinians today are 20th and 21st century Invaders from neighboring Arab lands. That is a fact.



I was right.  You are a dumbass.



The first written attestation of the ethnonym "Arab" occurs in an Assyrian inscription of 853 BCE, where Shalmaneser III lists a King Gindibu of mâtu arbâi (Arab land) as among the people he defeated at the Battle of Karkar. Some of the names given in these texts are Aramaic, while others are the first attestations of Ancient North Arabian dialects. In fact several different ethnonyms are found in Assyrian texts that are conventionally translated "Arab": Arabi, Arubu, Aribi and Urbi. Many of the Qedarite queens were also described as queens of the aribi. The Hebrew Bible occasionally refers to Aravi peoples (or variants thereof), translated as "Arab" or "Arabian." The scope of the term at that early stage is unclear, but it seems to have referred to various desert-dwelling Semitic tribes in the Syrian Desert and Arabia.[citation needed] Arab tribes came into conflict with the Assyrians during the reign of the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal, and he records military victories against the powerful Qedar tribe among others.

Medieval Arab genealogists divided Arabs into three groups:
 "Ancient Arabs", tribes that had vanished or been destroyed, such as &#703;&#256;d and Thamud, often mentioned in the Qur'an as examples of God's power to vanquish those who fought his prophets.
 "Pure Arabs" of South Arabia, descending from Qahtan. The Qahtanites (Qahtanis) are said to have migrated from the land of Yemen following the destruction of the Ma'rib Dam (sadd Ma'rib).
 The "Arabized Arabs" (musta`ribah) of central and North Arabia, descending from Ishmael the elder son of Abraham. The Book of Genesis narrates that God promised Hagar to beget from Ishmael twelve princes and turn him to a great nation.(Genesis 17:20) The Book of Jubilees, in the other hand, claims that the sons of Ishmael intermingled with the 6 sons of Keturah, from Abraham, and their descendants were called Arabs and Ishmaelites:


And Ishmael and his sons, and the sons of Keturah and their sons, went together and dwelt from Paran to the entering in of Babylon in all the land which is towards the East facing the desert. And these mingled with each other, and their name was called Arabs, and Ishmaelites.

Book of Jubilees 20:13

Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddima distinguishes between sedentary Muslims who used to be nomadic Arabs and the Bedouin nomadic Arabs of the desert. He used the term "formerly nomadic" Arabs and refers to sedentary Muslims by the region or city they lived in, as in Egyptians, Spaniards and Yemenis.[97] The Christians of Italy and the Crusaders preferred the term Saracens for all the Arabs and Muslims of that time.[98] The Christians of Iberia used the term Moor to describe all the Arabs and Muslims of that time.

Muslims of Medina referred to the nomadic tribes of the deserts as the A'raab, and considered themselves sedentary, but were aware of their close racial bonds. The term "A'raab' mirrors the term Assyrians used to describe the closely related nomads they defeated in Syria.

Arab people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > No actually, read what Churchill and his underlings said about the mass invasion of Arabs as the Jews started to come.
> ...



Well then, why did Twain say he found an empty wasteland when he visited that region in the 1800's?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > No actually, read what Churchill and his underlings said about the mass invasion of Arabs as the Jews started to come.
> ...


Churchill was repeating what the officials on the ground were reporting to him, and both are on record. 

It was the Arabs themselves who first scoffed st this idea of a Palestinian people.  They called it a Zionist invention.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ho ho ho.  Now that was funny. No such thing as Arabs or Islam 2000 years ago. Te Arabs who call themselves Palestinians today are 20th and 21st century Invaders from neighboring Arab lands. That is a fact.
> ...


The origin of the word ARAB is from Saudi Arabia, even your own article confirms.  Wow. Ha ha ha.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Churchill was repeating what the officials on the ground were reporting to him, and both are on record.
> 
> It was the Arabs themselves who first scoffed st this idea of a Palestinian people.  They called it a Zionist invention.



British research proves that the idea of a massive migration of Arabs into Mandate Palestine are a myth.  Plus the fact that the Arab natural growth rate in Israel was just as high or greater, without any immigration.


----------



## toastman (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Churchill was repeating what the officials on the ground were reporting to him, and both are on record.
> ...





Whoa there . Where did you read that ?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 14, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I've posted it maybe 5 times already.

Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

47.Jump up ^ Paul Blair (April 18, 2002). "Special Report: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine". Capitalism Magazine. Unknown parameter |part= ignored (help)
 48.Jump up ^ Anglo-American Commission report, Section 4.4. "Of this Moslem growth by 472,000, only 19,000 was accounted for by immigration."
 49.Jump up ^ Hope Simpson report, p. 158. "The natural increase of the Arab population since the census of 1922 has been estimated at 26 per thousand per annum."
 50.Jump up ^ Passfield White Paper, para 17. "the Arab population, while lacking the advantages enjoyed by the Jewish settlers, has, by the excess of births over deaths, increased with great rapidity"
 51.Jump up ^ , the Peel Commission report, pp. 125,282. "unlike the Jewish, the rise has been due in only a slight degree to immigration."
 52.Jump up ^ Survey of Palestine, p140. "the expansion of the Moslem and Christian populations is due mainly to natural increase, while that of the Jews is due mainly to immigration."
 53.^ Jump up to: a b c Government of Palestine (1933). E. Mills, ed. Census of Palestine 1931. I. Palestine Part I, Report. Alexandria. pp. 59, 61&#8211;65.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 14, 2014)

Thread has been lightly cleaned and reopened.  Further violations will be dealt with on a case by case basis.

I/P is a Zone 2 forum.  This means the following rules apply: http://www.usmessageboard.com/6992694-post1.html

In addition - I would like to remind you that there is a sticky posted in I/P explaining what is expected in this forum that might be useful to review http://www.usmessageboard.com/6995183-post2.html

The topic can wander and evolve a bit over the course of a conversation with several hundred posts, and that is acceptable.  However - *please keep the topic within the bounds of I/P.  *  For more general Mid-East matters we have ME General, for general topics involving racism or anti-semitism outside the bounds of IP, we have Race Relations.

*If you wish to discuss each other - take it to the FLAME ZONE.*

I strongly encourage branching out and exploring other parts of the forum


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 14, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ho ho ho.  Now that was funny. No such thing as Arabs or Islam 2000 years ago. Te Arabs who call themselves Palestinians today are 20th and 21st century Invaders from neighboring Arab lands. That is a fact.
> ...



Aramaic speaking people get aid from the bedouin tribes of the deserts against the assyrians and fight a battle in what today is norther syria.

Arab and Islamic genealogies identify Yarrob as the grandson of Hud (biblical Eber) and son of Qahtan (biblical Joktan), and the ancestor of the Himyarite kings of Yemen.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Not by natural population growth, births.  Israel absorbed the jews forced out from the muslim world and those from elsewhere in the world.  They have managed to still provide and grow their economy despite the increase of population.
> ...







Which means that you cant claim ethnic cleansing any more as that would show a net reduction in the population. Very soon laws will be passed to limit population growth in most civilised nations as the worlds food is running short


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Which means that you cant claim ethnic cleansing any more as that would show a net reduction in the population. Very soon laws will be passed to limit population growth in most civilised nations as the worlds food is running short



Keep dreaming.  Most western nations will never adopt population controls.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Ho ho ho.  Now that was funny. No such thing as Arabs or Islam 2000 years ago in ancient Israel. The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians today are 20th and 21st century invaders from neighboring Arab lands. That is a fact.



Sorry buddy but all the best research shows this is a lie.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, the intelligence just oozes out of you.  Some Arabs decided to stay and enjoy being Israeli citizens.  They now comprise part of the 1.8 million Arab citizens inside Israel.  The ones that decided to join the Arab countries in destroying Israel are now in the West Bank and Gaza, and they've multiplied like rats.  So your claim of ethnic cleansing is just like this notion of a "Palestinian nation"...*A HOAX*.
> ...






But who ran them of their land is the big question, do we go with the unsupported islamonazi blood libels, Or do we go with the historical accounts that show it was the arab army commanders.

 Still don't know were you get your figure of 1.2 million from as the 1948 population figures for Israel are no were near that.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 15, 2014)

Shaarona said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...







The operative word being some, as most were penniless wandering workers that came from other nations on the promise of work. It was the Jews that had lived there uninterrupted for 3,000 years, the muslims did not come on the scene until 630 C.E. and proceeded to expel Jews from their land rather than work at making the land fertile.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> But who ran them of their land is the big question, do we go with the unsupported islamonazi blood libels, Or do we go with the historical accounts that show it was the arab army commanders.
> 
> Still don't know were you get your figure of 1.2 million from as the 1948 population figures for Israel are no were near that.



You sound just like a Holocaust denier, disregarding population numbers that have been put in your face time and time again.

I have given you the numbers but you don't care.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> The operative word being some, as most were penniless wandering workers that came from other nations on the promise of work. It was the Jews that had lived there uninterrupted for 3,000 years, the muslims did not come on the scene until 630 C.E. and proceeded to expel Jews from their land rather than work at making the land fertile.



Many of the inhabitatants of Palestine converted to Islam after the Muslim conquest.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Let us hear what other *Arabs* have said:

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

Concerning the Holy Land, the chairman of the Syrian Delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919 stated:
"The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 c.e. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years".

"There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough".
-Arab writer and journalist.

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Let us hear what other Arabs have said:
> 
> "There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
> - Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -
> ...



You should stop pulling false and unsubstantiated quotes out of your ass.  It only increases anti-Semitism.   Lies about Muslims and Arabs fuels anti-Semitism.


----------



## toastman (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 (AKA Hoff) you are seriously obsessed with anti semitism. The only thing that fuels is it hatred for Jews


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > But who ran them of their land is the big question, do we go with the unsupported islamonazi blood libels, Or do we go with the historical accounts that show it was the arab army commanders.
> ...


I'd say that's what you are doing. Your futile attempts at denying the history if Israel.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Let us hear what other Arabs have said:
> ...


Those are not false quotes. Prove it.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 (AKA Hoff) you are seriously obsessed with anti semitism. The only thing that fuels is it hatred for Jews



Israeli crimes against non-Jews fuels anti-Semitism.

Israeli racism and racism by Israel-lovers fuels anti-Semitism.

The sooner you realize the safer Jews around the world will be.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 (AKA Hoff) you are seriously obsessed with anti semitism. The only thing that fuels is it hatred for Jews


According to Defeat67, Jews shouldn't respond to lies and false propaganda...it increases anti semetism. Typical IslamoNazi mentality.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 (AKA Hoff) you are seriously obsessed with anti semitism. The only thing that fuels is it hatred for Jews
> ...


Not a thing in those three sentences was true.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Those are not false quotes. Prove it.



You posted the so-called "quotes" without any evidence the are real.

You going to back them up or not?

Until I see evidence they are real I call bullshit.


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## Phoenall (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...







 Cant find those exact words in either link, would you like to try again only this time find a link that contains the exact words.


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

This is one of my favorite quotes. From one of the founders of the PLO. he's quite honest about it. 

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Not a thing in those three sentences was true.



So American war crimes don't influence opinions of Americans?

Bullshit.  You think Israel is so special that they are immune from criticism and can do nothing wrong.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> This is one of my favorite quotes. From one of the founders of the PLO. he's quite honest about it.
> 
> "There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
> - Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -



This is my favorite Zionist quote-

Herzl stated in his diary:

"It would be an excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property. To the people they would vouch for the fact that we do not wish to bring about the impoverishment of the countries that we leave. At first they must not be given large fees for this; otherwise we shall spoil our instruments and make them despicable as 'stooges of the Jews.' Later their fees will increase, and in the end we shall have only Gentile officials in the countries from which we have emigrated. *The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies."* (The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl. Vol. 1, edited by Raphael Patai, translated by Harry Zohn, page 83-84)


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

I posted the quotes and an also posted the source. You can cross check those quotes on other sites to validate them. This is not the first time I posted them.  They are true. Live with it. 

Are you upset that they undermine your fraudulent claims?  Good.

DEFEAT67.  LOL


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Another of my favorite quotes showing how fraudulent the Palestinian cause is.

Palestinians are the newest of all the peoples on the face of the Earth, and began to exist in a single day by a kind of supernatural phenomenon that is unique in the whole history of mankind, as it is witnessed by a former PLO terrorist that acknowledged the lie he was fighting for and the truth he was fighting against:

&#8220;Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?&#8221;
&#8220;We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag&#8221;.
&#8220;When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out&#8221;.


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Here's a great quote by David Ben-Gurion

When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." (Righteous Victims, p. 652)


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Here's another good quote by David Ben-Gurion

"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66).

"The compulsory transfer of the [Palestinian] Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own during the days of the first and second Temples. . . We are given an opportunity which we never dared to dream of in our wildest imaginings. This is MORE than a state, government and sovereignty----this is national consolidation in a free homeland." (Righteous Victims, p. 142)


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

"If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162,

-David Ben Gurion.   His attitudes could be seen as anti-Semitic.


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Not a thing in those three sentences was true.
> ...


If indeed "war crimes" have been committed. An Arab Nazi yelping on the internet about war crimes doesn't mean jack.  What about the Palestinian war crimes?  You seem blind to them. I wonder why....


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

here's another goody by Ben-Gurion

"The Arabs of the land of Israel [ Palestinians] have only one function left to them -- to run away." (Benny Morris, p. 218)


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

More anti-Semitism from Ben-Gurion

"They tell me that there are thieves among them. I am a Polish Jew, and I doubt if there is any Jewish community which has more thieves among them. I am doubtful if there is any Jewish community which has more thieves in it than the Polish ones." A few years later Ben-Gurion wrote to Justice Moshe Estzioni: "An Ashkenazi gangster, thief, pimp, or murderer will not gain the sympathy of the Ashkenazi community (if there is such a thing), nor will he expect it. But in such a primitive community as the Moroccans'---such a thing is possible. . . . " (1949, The First Israelis, p. 157)


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Ha ha ha. Most of your quotes are either meaningless or false. 

I can sense the desperation in you now.


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## Phoenall (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Which means that you cant claim ethnic cleansing any more as that would show a net reduction in the population. Very soon laws will be passed to limit population growth in most civilised nations as the worlds food is running short
> ...






 Then they will face starvation on a grand scale, and possibly even sanctions if they don't take measures to cut their birth rate. You can expect the first place to see widespread starvation to be gaza as they have destroyed the majority of their arable land in their war with Israel. The UN will pull the plug on the activities of UNWRA as it cant afford to support its excesses any more, then the food will stop going into gaza and hamas will find they are no longer supported.

 Most western nations already have "rules" in place to limit population that are set by the people themselves. Very soon uncontrolled breeding will see loss of benefits to those abusing the system, I believe that Australia has already introduced new legislation on unemployed families that sees their welfare cut if they have any more children while unemployed.


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## Phoenall (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ho ho ho.  Now that was funny. No such thing as Arabs or Islam 2000 years ago in ancient Israel. The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians today are 20th and 21st century invaders from neighboring Arab lands. That is a fact.
> ...






You mean all the best islamonazi research that starts with " this is the word of allah and so must be true"


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Ha ha ha. Most of your quotes are either meaningless or false.
> 
> I can sense the desperation in you now.



My quotes are sourced.  Yours are not.

You are a liar and your lies breed anti-Semitism.


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

My favorite quote is from MOHAMMAD the prophet of Islam, even he gave the land to the Jews:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Thank you Moe.  Proof that even the illiterate terrorist prophet got a few things right.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ha ha ha. Most of your quotes are either meaningless or false.
> ...


Truth breed anti semitism? How very IslamoNazi of you. 

The reason that you can't disprove them is because you googled them and found them to be true. 

Stop whining, DEFEAT67.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Truth breed anti semitism? How very IslamoNazi of you.
> 
> The reason that you can't disprove them is because you googled them and found them to be true.
> 
> Stop whining, DEFEAT67.



Only a liar or a coward posts quotes without sources.

But we all know you are both.

Your lies and cowardice fuels anti-Semitism and leads to injured Jews around the world.

I urge you to stop fueling anti-Semitism.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> More anti-Semitism from Ben-Gurion
> 
> "They tell me that there are thieves among them. I am a Polish Jew, and I doubt if there is any Jewish community which has more thieves among them. I am doubtful if there is any Jewish community which has more thieves in it than the Polish ones." A few years later Ben-Gurion wrote to Justice Moshe Estzioni: "An Ashkenazi gangster, thief, pimp, or murderer will not gain the sympathy of the Ashkenazi community (if there is such a thing), nor will he expect it. But in such a primitive community as the Moroccans'---such a thing is possible. . . . " (1949, The First Israelis, p. 157)


Poor DEFEAT67. He doesn't even know the definition of anti semetism.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Truth breed anti semitism? How very IslamoNazi of you.
> ...


I posted my source. Epicfail67.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > More anti-Semitism from Ben-Gurion
> ...



Ben-Gurion's words in this quote are clearly anti-Semitic.

But as you think Israelis (and maybe also Jews) are immune from wrondoing you refuse to acknowledge his bigotry.

Shame on you.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2013/06/11/arab-leaders-confess-palestinian-people-exist/

Zionists do not deny the existence of Palestine. Arabs do:

There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. Palestine is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it.  Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader

There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.  Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat

There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.  Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian

It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria.  Representative of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations

Palestine and Jordan are one -King Abdullah in 1948

The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.  King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981

Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the Jordan is Palestine position.  They used that position as justification for the annexation of Judea and Samaria, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine

We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine. -Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza al-Majali, 23 August 1959

Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate. -Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations. -Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

As Palestinian politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (Israel Matzav):

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jersusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Israeli policies and attitudes clearly influence anti-Semitism.

Just as American policies influence hatred of Americans.

Its idiotic to assume otherwise.


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


Anti semetism is hatred of Jews. OMG what an illiterate.


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## Victory67 (Feb 15, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Anti semetism is hatred of Jews. OMG what an illiterate.



Ben Gurion had bigoted attitudes towards his fellow Jews.

Anti-Semitism can come from Jews, like Benjamin Freedman.


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Defeat67: "truth creates anti semetism!"

*The Testimony of Arabs and Christians
*
Because Arabs until the 1960s spoke of Palestine as Southern Syria or part of Greater Syria, in 1919 the General Syrian Congress stated, "We ask that there should be no separation of the southern part of Syria, known as Palestine."11 In 1939 George Antonius noted the Arab view of Palestine in 1918:12

Faisal's views about the future of Palestine did not differ from those of his father and were identical with those held then by the great majority of politically-minded Arabs. The representative Arab view was substantially that which King Husain [Grand Sherif of Mecca, the great grandfather of the current King Hussein of Jordan] had expressed to the British Government...in January 1918. In the Arab view, Palestine was an Arab territory forming an integral part of Syria.

Referring to the same Arab view of Palestine in 1939, George Antonius spoke of "the whole of the country of that name [Syria] which is now split up into mandated territories..."13 His lament was that France's mandate over Syria did not include Palestine which was under Britain's mandate.

As late as May 1947, Arab representatives reminded the United Nations in a formal statement, "Palestine is a... part of the Province of Syria.... Politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity."14

On May 31, 1956, Ahmed Shukairy had no hesitation, as current head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, in announcing to the Security Council the observation, "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."15

Syrian President Hafez Assad once told PLO leader Yassir Arafat:16

You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian People, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.

Assad stated on March 8, 1974, "Palestine is a principal part of Southern Syria, and we consider that it is our right and duty to insist that it be a liberated partner of our Arab homeland and of Syria."17

In the words of the late military commander of the PLO as well as member of the PLO Executive Council, Zuhair Muhsin:18

There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel [emphasis ours].


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## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Anti semetism is hatred of Jews. OMG what an illiterate.
> ...


Ya right, Ben Gurion was an anti Semite!  Have you checked your drinking water?  

Again this is being posted by someone who believes the Arabs were victorious in 1967.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

And here's how the refugees were created, another great quote:

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children--all this in the service of political purposes...."
- *Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war*


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Let us hear what other Arabs have said:
> ...



child tantrum

>>Between 1936 and 1939 the Arabs of the British Mandate of Palestine went on a rampage that became known as the "Arab revolt."  The Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin el-Husseini, cried to the heavens that the Jews were destroying the al-Aqsa Mosque and agitated his easily agitated people into bloody rampages that lasted for years.  The British, seeking to calm the situation, initiated the Peel Commission which recommended a division of the land between Arabs and Jews in order to ease tensions and create peace between the vast Arab majority and the tiny Jewish minority in the Middle East.

During their investigations they met with Syrian Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, who told them:

    There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. Palestine is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it.

What are we to make of the fact that it is only within living memory that the Arabs of that small portion of the world fashioned themselves as a distinct ethnicity or nationality known as "Palestinians"?  They did so, with the encouragement of Yassir Arafat and the Soviets, for the purpose of contesting Jewish claims to Jewish land after the establishment of Israel.  The majority of Arabs in the region only took on "Palestinian" identity after the the 6 Day War of 1967, appropriating it from the Jews.

It has to be understood that all national identities start somewhere in time and place.  "American" identity, which is to say the identity of people who live in, or are citizens of, what is now the United States, emerged toward the end of the 18th century and did not completely solidify until after the Civil War.  Jewish identity, of course, is well over 3,000 years old, which makes the Jewish people one of the oldest surviving nationalities, along with the Chinese, on the planet today. <<

You can go to any arab library and do the research yourself.  Just because you might not like a quote does not mean it is not substantiated.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 15, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Yup. I bet they didn't tell him at the mosque that the biggest deniers of a "Palestine" were the Arab themselves.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 15, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Totally not.
> 
> Israel is a soveriegn nation, and Jews around the world are no more responsible for it's actions and policies than Muslims around the world are for policies in Muslim dominant countries or Christians around the world are for policies are in Christian dominant countries.


Yeah, but *Toastman's* from Canada and I hold him personally responsible for Bryan Adams.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Anti semetism is hatred of Jews. OMG what an illiterate.
> ...


You deserve a Pos Rep for this post. From SunniMan.


----------



## MHunterB (Feb 15, 2014)

Freedman was an apostate, so no longer Jewish as far as religion goes....


----------



## Sally (Feb 15, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Truth breed anti semitism? How very IslamoNazi of you.
> ...




So tell us, Herr Weil Ich Weiss, after you graduated from high school last year, what did your cousins have to say about the Jews when you visited them in Gaza?  After all, you have been so busy posting away so surely you would like to tell us about the anti-Semitism in the Gaza Strip since you seem to be talking about fueling anti-Semitism and threatening what is going to happen to the Jews.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The Treaty of Peace between the allied powers and Turkey officially ending World War I was signed in Lausanne, Switzerland, on 24 July 1923.121 Setting out the legal status of the territories detached from Turkey, the Treaty had the effect of law in Palestine, as it was extended to this country by an ordinance,122 on 6 August 1924.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.123 And, thereafter, Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.124

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​
Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

Sally said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Jews spending the day in Gaza.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eLFtfeowY]Codepink built a playground at beach camp in Gaza - YouTube[/ame]


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## Sally (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Naturally we get Mr. Tinmore digging into his hoard of videos to show us one that he has posted before.  We all know about these Leftist Code Pink Ladies, Mr. Tinmore.  Are you having a problem with allowing Mr. Weil Ich Weiss. tell us about his summer vacation in Gaza.  If you don't realize by now who Mr. Weil Ich Weiss is, you are very, very slow on the uptake.  No one is asking you about your relatives, are they?


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## Hossfly (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


Did Palestine obtain a seperate nationality? If so what nationality. And don't say Palestine nationality 'cause there ain't no Palestine no way no how.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 15, 2014)

David Ben Gurion wanted a secular Israel.
So?
Why should a Jew, observant or secular, in 2014 care what DBG wanted?
That's like saying every one of the FFs of the US agreed 100% on the Constitution; they DIDN'T.
What a stupid argument.

All I know is that God has caused miraculous military victories for Jews, observant AND secular, since 1948.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

Sally said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



How about more "leftists" visiting Gaza?


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## Hossfly (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


How about not posting that photo and that video again. We've only seen them two hundred times.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.​
84To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel


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## Indeependent (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Wow!  All four members of the Niturei Karta in one place at one time!
Cool!


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The Articles are almost a hundred years old. Are they still in effect and valid?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Do you have any treaties that would change that status?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Let's go back even further...
Sarah had Abraham kick Ishmael out and removed from the inheritance of the Holy Land.
Are you saying a SECULAR document has more value than the BIBLE?
If yes, please be explicit.


----------



## Sally (Feb 15, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



You know what is funny?  Very few of the posters and readers (unless they lived in the neighborhoods of these particular Jews) would have even heard of this very tiny group of crazy Jews if those like Mr. Tinmore didn't read the hate sites and find out about them.  This group of Jews is such a favorite of the hate sites, and anyone who pulls them up from the hate sites is free to grow a beard like theirs and accompany them when they next make another visit to the crazies in Iran.  Mr. Tinmore, stop shaving and you will feel comfortable when you go with them.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

Sally said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



"surely you would like to tell us about the anti-Semitism in the Gaza Strip"

Propaganda crap.

Jews visit Gaza all the time in complete safety.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



That's because the poor oppressed Gazans have one of the most beautiful shopping malls on earth.
Which, of course, puts the lie to all of your propaganda.


----------



## Sally (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Of course, Mr. Tinmore will not tell us that it is just Leftist Jews who visit the Gaza Strip all the time, and the only reason they are safe is because the Gazans feel they serve a purpose.  Meanwhile, I have a great idea for Mr. Tinmore.  Instead of him spewing his propaganda crap, he can get in touch with the Code Pink Ladies and tell them that he is available to raise funds for several playgrounds in Gaza.  Then when they are built, he will show us videos of his old gang pushing children on swings.  How about it, Mr. Tinmore?  Fundraising for more playgrounds in Gaza will give you a chance of doing something different besides being one of Hamas' representatives here in America.


----------



## Sally (Feb 15, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



I still think that Mr. Tinmore should stop shaving, grow a beard, and accompany those favorite Jews from the hate sites when they next visit the crazies in Iran.  Look at how much fun he will have.  He will get to see a new country and will be able to sample some new cuisine.  I think Persian food is probably different from what he is used to.


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## toastman (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



LOL what a lovely propaganda picture that you've posted so many times. 

hamas jews - YouTube


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



Thanks for the link.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUN2OdflqFU]Does Hamas really vow to kill all Jews? - YouTube[/ame]


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## toastman (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Cool. Now what about all the other videos ?? Did you miss them or something ?


----------



## Sally (Feb 15, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





What we are seeing is probably one of Mr. Tinmore's treasure trove of videos.  All that the enormous amount of videos which Mr. Tinmore has been pulling up is only showing the readers that the Palestinian Propaganda Machine is going gung-ho and is probably the best Propaganda Machine in the entire world.  Can you think of any group, Toastman, who has produced the enormous amount of videos which Mr. Tinmore has shown the readers?  Meanwhile, when his friends change their charters about destroying Israel, perhaps then people will sit up and take notice that they actually want peace.  Maybe Mr. Tinmore will in the future show us a video of each group, Fatah and Hamas, sitting down with neutral parties and changing their charters.  Then, of course, when that time comes, instead of showing those hideous cartoons shown to children about killing Jews and becoming a Shaheed, these cartoons will be replaced with Sesame Street and Barney.  Maybe Mr. Tinmore would have fun putting on a purple dinosaur suit and sing There Are Seven Days in a Week just like Barney does on T.V.  Someone can make a video of him doing this, and he can show us the video on this forum.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I skipped over the ones from Israeli propaganda sites.


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## toastman (Feb 15, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



LOL . Whats wrong with those videos though? Why are they propaganda?

All they do is offer translations up television clips from the Arab world.

It's obvious they are too truthful for you too watch. It's ok, I understand

But I would still like an answer to why they are propaganda??


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## Hossfly (Feb 15, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


I love it when Arab videos are shown with English captions and the antis all scream, "It's a lie, it's Israeli propaganda". Thing is, the Israelis never had a thing to do with the video and it's still their fault. What a bunch of maroons.


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Let's go back even further...
> Sarah had Abraham kick Ishmael out and removed from the inheritance of the Holy Land.
> Are you saying a SECULAR document has more value than the BIBLE?
> If yes, please be explicit.



The Bible is a fantasy book with no legal significance whatsoever.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> David Ben Gurion wanted a secular Israel.
> So?
> Why should a Jew, observant or secular, in 2014 care what DBG wanted?
> That's like saying every one of the FFs of the US agreed 100% on the Constitution; they DIDN'T.
> ...


Observant and Secular Jews realize that the enemy doesn't differentiate between the two. Just as an Islamic terrorist doesn't differentiate between a republican or democrat.


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## Roudy (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Seriously? Is this all you have?  A cult of about fifty NUTJOB Jews, who want Israel destroyed just as much as Hamas does?  

You know Tinmore is scraping the bottom of the barrel when he uses Code Pink and Nutrau Karta morons as examples of Jews that are left alone in Gaza. 

That's like Nazis allowing the KKK. Ha ha ha.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Oh they do do they?    Only if incognito as part of Israel's Defense Forces.


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## Phoenall (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...






 Don't forget the Country clubs with their 18 hole championship Golf courses, 3 star restaurants, private Olympic size swimming pools and more German Limo's per square mile than Washington.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 16, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The shops and markets are teeming with goods.  I wish my local market was as well-stocked.


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## Phoenall (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 So you will have no problem when we skip over yours from pallywood and the plethora of islqamic, neonazi and KKK hate sites you use.


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## Phoenall (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Let's go back even further...
> ...







So what does this make the Koran then as it is based on the Talmud and the Old Testament. Bearing in mind that the Koran has been altered by successive muslim regimes to meet the needs of the rulers of that time. The common muslim did not know that the words had been altered as they were at best barely literate, so accepted the clerics word for what was written.


Makes the Koran a fantasy book with no significance to anyone or anything.


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## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



No.

It makes it a fantasy book with no *legal *significance whatsoever.

The Bible and the Koran both share a significant history of alteration and interpretation (most often to suit political ends) and Muslims aren't alone in thinking their book is infallible and unalterable.  Look at how many people still believe in the myth of creationism


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 16, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





Of course there will be no examples forthcoming.


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## Roudy (Feb 16, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...


These are the same Jews that Iran's Ahmadinejad would invite to his Holocaust denying conventions. Ha ha ha.


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## toastman (Feb 16, 2014)

Yup, the same 'Jews'

It's one thing to criticize Israels policies, but if you don't believe in Israel should exist, you are not a Jew. Doesn't matter if you have payes, or the hat, or whatnot, but the guys in the picture are the fakest Jews you will ever see.


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## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

toastman said:


> Yup, the same 'Jews'
> 
> It's one thing to criticize Israels policies, *but if you don't believe in Israel should exist, you are not a Jew*. Doesn't matter if you have payes, or the hat, or whatnot, but the guys in the picture are the fakest Jews you will ever see.



Serious question Toast.

Don't these guys have actual religious rationalizations for their view that Israel shouldn't exist?  Saying they aren't "Jews" or are fake seems a bit much.


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## Roudy (Feb 16, 2014)

toastman said:


> Yup, the same 'Jews'
> 
> It's one thing to criticize Israels policies, but if you don't believe in Israel should exist, you are not a Jew. Doesn't matter if you have payes, or the hat, or whatnot, but the guys in the picture are the fakest Jews you will ever see.


Yup the only "good Jews" to these guys are the Capo Jews who helped the Nazis in the concentration camps. 

They parade these fifty Jews as if they are a representation of the sixteen million Jews worldwide. LOL


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, the same 'Jews'
> ...



@ Coyote, There's only a bit of debate about whether Israel should exist now or in messanic times.  But all Jews, even traiterous ones, believe that Israel will exist at some point in time.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



How about you giving an example of how Jews visit Gaza all the time in complete safety?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

toastman said:


> Yup, the same 'Jews'
> 
> It's one thing to criticize Israels policies, but if you don't believe in Israel should exist, you are not a Jew. Doesn't matter if you have payes, or the hat, or whatnot, but the guys in the picture are the fakest Jews you will ever see.



What a bigoted and moronic thing to say.

These Jews live in Israel.  They have no problem with Jews living in Israel.  They simply don't believe that Jews should have any sort of soverign entity in the Land of Israel until the Messiah comes.  Their beliefs are 100% grounded in the Bible and the Talmud.  There was a massive debate among Orthodox Jews before 1948 and after 1948 as to whether Jewish soverignity in the Land of Israel violated Jewish law and tradition.  

Your attitudes are disgusting and bigoted.


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## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Let's go back even further...
> ...



Too bad at least 2 billion people disagree with you.


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## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, the same 'Jews'
> ...



Try actually reading something about them before become an "authority".


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## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Are you saying that the Bible has legal significance?

Not in most modern nations where law is seperated from religion.


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## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



How many nations in Europe have a TRUE separation from religion?
What gives Vatican City the right to exist?
How many nations in the Middle-East have a TRUE separation from religion?

Things look great on paper, including the US Constitution, when it comes to ideologies effect on actuality, it's a whole different ballgame.

The US has two major political parties...
One claims we are a CHRISTIAN nation with a Judao-Christian Heritage (whatever that means).
One claims we are a GODLESS society with GODLY morals.
And we have endless court battles that make both sides a reality as opposed to what's written in the US Constitution.


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Try actually reading something about them before become an "authority".



I know all about Naturie Karta and their meetings with Iran.  This makes them imbeciles, not false-Jews.

There was a massive debate among Orthodox Jews before Israel was founded and after the founding, as to whether Jewish soveignity in the Land of Israel violated Jewish law before the Messiah came.  One large stream of Orthodoxy, I believe they are called Agudath Israel, decided to accept it on the basis of Jewish need due to the Holocaust.  But other streams remain totally against Jewish soverignty in the Land of Israel while accepting Jewish settlement in the land and even taking social financial benefits from the State (hypocrites).

Anyone who says all Jews must accept the legitimacy of the State of Israel or they are no longer a Jew, even if their beliefs are grounded in Jewish law, is a bigot and a fool.

Jews don't stop being Jews just because of political beliefs.


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## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Most have a secular system of law - not biblical law.



> What gives Vatican City the right to exist?



Any nation has the right to exist for any reason.



> How many nations in the Middle-East have a TRUE separation from religion?



Few - but I was talking of the Bible not the Quran.  Many problems in the ME are a result of the intermixing of religion with the legal system.




> Things look great on paper, including the US Constitution, when it comes to ideologies effect on actuality, it's a whole different ballgame.
> 
> The US has two major political parties...
> One claims we are a CHRISTIAN nation with a Judao-Christian Heritage (whatever that means).
> ...



True.

But we have a system of law that is secular - not Biblical.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Are you saying that the Bible has legal significance?
> 
> Not in most modern nations where law is seperated from religion.



He is citing Muslim belief in Sharia to argue that the Bible has legal significance.  Funny huh?


----------



## jodylee (Feb 16, 2014)

of course Israel's action has an effect on anti-Semitism, yes there is always minority hard-core anti-Semitic groups but they are plain and simple racists, they also hate blacks & Asians. its only a issue when law abiding middle class 'normal' people start thinking in this way. Israel and the banks are just the thing to help these group recruit from the mass population. and those that bundle anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism only make it worse if you see whats going on in isreal and it makes you angry you need to understand its the Zionist (a political movement) who are the problem, but no you are going to constantly be called an anti-Semitic, which will force some people to become one.


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Too bad at least 2 billion people disagree with you.



Sorry Dick (may I call you Dick?), but the Bible has no legal significance whatsoever.

Use it to argue a case in court and they put you in a straight jacket and lock you up.


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## toastman (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, the same 'Jews'
> ...



Defeat67, you're an idiot. I'm not talking about those Jews.

I'm talking about the ones that DOn'T live in ISrael and think Israel should not exist at all. 

Do you even know what a bigot is?? It doesn't even apply to what I said.
Go read a dictionary before you use words like that that you don't understand


----------



## toastman (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, the same 'Jews'
> ...



Yes there are some Jews that believe Israel should not have come into existence until the Messiah comes. Many of these Jews are citizens of Israel believe it or not lol.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

toastman said:


> Defeat67, you're an idiot. I'm not talking about those Jews.
> 
> I'm talking about the ones that DOn'T live in ISrael and think Israel should not exist at all.
> 
> ...



So Jews who don't live in Israel and don't believe that Jews should have an independent and soverign state in the Land of Israel until the Messiah comes, due to well grounded Biblical and Talmudic understanding, are not real Jews?

That's a bigoted and intolerant thing for you to say against I assume to be you fellow Jews.

Since when is their a litmus test on who is a Jew?  Since when do certain religious beliefs strip one of their Jewishness?  Your ignorance and bigotry is a disgrace to your people.


----------



## Sally (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Defeat67, you're an idiot. I'm not talking about those Jews.
> ...



Why, Herr Weil Ich Weiss, your own Sunni brethren don't believe that the Shia are actually Muslims since their beliefs are somewhat different.  Let's not forget how they also don't consider the Ahmadiyyas as Muslims because the Ahmadiyyas don't consider Mohammed as the final prophet but some other man.  Regardhess how different Jews think of other Jews, they are not busy blowing up their Houses of Worship like your Sunni brethren do.  Now that to me is a bigoted and intolerant thing to do and is a disgrace to Muslims.


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## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

jodylee said:


> of course Israel's action has an effect on anti-Semitism, yes there is always minority hard-core anti-Semitic groups but they are plain and simple racists, they also hate blacks & Asians. its only a issue when law abiding middle class 'normal' people start thinking in this way. Israel and the banks are just the thing to help these group recruit from the mass population. and those that bundle anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism only make it worse if you see whats going on in isreal and it makes you angry you need to understand its the Zionist (a political movement) who are the problem, but no you are going to constantly be called an anti-Semitic, which will force some people to become one.


Seems to me it's the Jew-haters who are pushing this "Jews cause anti-Semitism". Hitler and Goebbels made a living out of that claim. Their progeny keep it alive.


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Seems to me it's the Jew-haters who are pushing this "Jews cause anti-Semitism". Hitler and Goebbels made a living out of that claim. Their progeny keep it alive.



So you believe the Holocaust didn't affect world views about Germans?

Interesting.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Try actually reading something about them before become an "authority".
> ...



OMG!  Jews disagreed and didn't murder each other?
No wonder the Jews haven't lost a war since 1948.


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## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad at least 2 billion people disagree with you.
> ...



You may call me anything you desire if God keeps making the Arabs lose.
I'm happy to do my part.

And I'm still waiting for some Torah explanations that don't make sense in English.
On the other hand, YOU don't make sense in ANY language.


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## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Seems to me it's the Jew-haters who are pushing this "Jews cause anti-Semitism". Hitler and Goebbels made a living out of that claim. Their progeny keep it alive.
> ...


Yes, interesting. Your kind don't believe the Holocaust occured, then you cite the Holocaust. Interesting indeed.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Defeat67, you're an idiot. I'm not talking about those Jews.
> ...



Anti-Israel Jews, INCLUDING the bearded ones, DO NOT have a Biblical argument; they're argument is POLITICAL.
Your continuous use of this strawman proves you never read a about them.

And by the way, LOTS of anti-Israel Jews buy MILLIONS of dollars worth of Israeli Bonds.
You see, MOST if the only want to APPEAR to be politically correct.


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Yes, interesting. Your kind don't believe the Holocaust occured, then you cite the Holocaust. Interesting indeed.



My "kind"?  What kind might that be?


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Anti-Israel Jews, INCLUDING the bearded ones, DO NOT have a Biblical argument; they're argument is POLITICAL.
> Your continuous use of this strawman proves you never read a about them.
> 
> And by the way, LOTS of anti-Israel Jews buy MILLIONS of dollars worth of Israeli Bonds.
> You see, MOST if the only want to APPEAR to be politically correct.



Non-Zionist and anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews have a very grounded Biblical and Talmudic argument for their beliefs.

Haredim and Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are many different ideological reasons for religious opposition to Zionism; however, the main two are most widely expressed by Hasidim and Lithuanian Haredeim.

Historically, many dynasties in Hasidism have expressed anti-Zionist opinions because of the 'Three Oaths'. The Talmud, in Ketubot 111a, mentions that the Jewish people have been bound by three oaths: 1) not to ascend to Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) as a group using force; 2) not to rebel against the nations of the world; and 3) that the nations of the world would not persecute the nation of Israel excessively.[33] Some consider the establishment of the State of Israel to be a violation of these oaths. The first Hasidic anti-Zionist movement was Agudath Israel, established in Poland in 1912.[34] Hareidi groups and people actively and publicly opposing Zionism are Satmar,[35] Toldos Aharon,[36] Neturei Karta.[35]

Lithuanian Haredim, sometimes called mitnagdim, take a different approach to their beliefs from their Hassidic counterparts. Lithuanian religious Jews oppose the state not because of the three oaths midrash but because they feel that Zionism epitomizes secularity and Jewish desire to be void of Torah. Many Lithuanian religious Jews, such as Rabbi Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, have been involved with Zionist politics as Israel progressively becomes more Jewish-oriented.[citation needed]

Amongst the Ashkenazi Orthodox rabbinical leadership, religious Zionists form a minority.[37] Generally speaking, most Sephardi Haredi authorities have never shared the anti-Zionism of their Ashkenazi counterparts, and some (such as the late Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu) are strongly affiliated with Religious Zionism, taking a similar stance to the Hardal movements.[citation needed]. However, there are anti-Zionist elements in the Sefardic communities as well. It is known that the late Baba Sali supported and celebrated the anti-Zionist views of the Satmar Rebbe

Three Oaths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anti-Zionist arguments that consider the Three Oaths[edit]

An overview of some of the primary claims made by anti-Zionists concerning the Three Oaths:
 Although the Three Oaths are Aggadic in style, precedent shows when Aggadic material in the Talmud presents novel legal material (as opposed to punishments and rewards relating to legal material expounded elsewhere in the Talmud), that material is codified as halacha, unless there is a specific reason not to.[41]
 Even if the oaths are to be seen as decrees, the existence of the modern State of Israel does not constitute proof that the decree has ended, because the state's future is still uncertain.[25]
 The Satmar Rebbe, in his book Vayoel Moshe maintains that Maimonides spoke of the Three Oaths as binding. (See Modern Debate on the Appropriate Understanding of Maimonides above)
 The oaths are between the Jewish people and God, and the gentiles and God respectively. The fact that the gentiles violated their oath does not tacitly mean that the Jewish people are free to do so as well. Historically, atrocities prior to the Holocaust have generally not prompted rabbinic encouragement of mass immigration to Israel, though there have been some notable exceptions.[42][43]
 Living in Eretz Yisroel is not a general mitzvah for the Jews collectively, only individuals (see discussion of Rashbash (Solomon ben Simon Duran) in Nachmanides section above).
 The Balfour Declaration never covered the Oaths.
 The State of Israel has expanded its borders beyond the areas mandated by the UN and have thus expanded the borders without the permission of the nations.
 The United Nations approval of the establishment of the State of Israel does not constitute permission from the nations of the world. The Halacha attaches no significant value to the United Nations. The relevant approval should be that of some of the other people who live in the land (in this instance, the Palestinian Arabs).[44]
 In response to the Zionists' use of Rabbi Chaim Vital (see above), the Satmar Rebbe argued that Vital's remarks refer not to the Three Oaths incumbent on the Jewish people, but to God's oath not to redeem the Jewish people unless they repent out of love. This oath lasts a thousand years; after that point even repentance out of fear can bring the redemption.[45]
 In response to questions of why God would allow the Zionists some measure of success if Zionism is against the Talmud; anti-Zionist religious Jews respond with the following; "The fallacy of the argument lies in the undeniable fact that there is evil in this world. Hashem allows people free will to choose to do wrong, and even to be successful in doing wrong on a large scale. ... Why Hashem decided to grant their efforts some degree of success is one of the mysteries of our era. But the fact that they succeeded is no more a proof that they were doing the right thing, than is the fact that the Germans succeeded in killing six million Jews a proof that they were doing the right thing."[46]

Many Haredim who subscribe to the anti-Zionist view still immigrate to the Land of Israel. Their rationalization is that they do so only as individuals and families, but not as members of the organized mass-immigration, and that they come to the Land solely to live there, not in order to conquer it or rule over it. Such Haredim accordingly do not believe themselves to be in violation of the Three Oaths.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, interesting. Your kind don't believe the Holocaust occured, then you cite the Holocaust. Interesting indeed.
> ...


The kind who try to convince the world that Jews cause all the ills of the world.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> The kind who try to convince the world that Jews cause all the ills of the world.



So now you are lying about me?  Good job.  I hope you're proud of your lies.

I don't subscribe to such idiocy and I scold folks who do.


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## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

"Although the Three Oaths are Aggadic in style, precedent shows when Aggadic material in the Talmud presents novel legal material (as opposed to punishments and rewards relating to legal material expounded elsewhere in the Talmud), that material is codified as halacha, unless there is a specific reason not to.[41]
"
This oath lasts a thousand years; after that point even repentance out of fear can bring the redemption.[45]

Aggadata...cool!

It's been about a year since I've read this.
Israel was chosen by the UN, not the survivors.
The survivors would have gone to America if they had the choise.
Guess which country didn't want such an influx of Jews?
Yep...America.
Jews have a philosophy...If it fails, God doesn't want it to succeed.
Guess what?  It hasn't failed.

Jews disagree and don't kill each other...aren't you jealous?


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> "Although the Three Oaths are Aggadic in style, precedent shows when Aggadic material in the Talmud presents novel legal material (as opposed to punishments and rewards relating to legal material expounded elsewhere in the Talmud), that material is codified as halacha, unless there is a specific reason not to.[41]
> "
> This oath lasts a thousand years; after that point even repentance out of fear can bring the redemption.[45]
> 
> ...



Tell that to Yitzhak Rabin.


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## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > "Although the Three Oaths are Aggadic in style, precedent shows when Aggadic material in the Talmud presents novel legal material (as opposed to punishments and rewards relating to legal material expounded elsewhere in the Talmud), that material is codified as halacha, unless there is a specific reason not to.[41]
> ...



My favorite strawman.
ONE Jew is assassinated by ONE Jew and we pretty much went into a universal state of mourning over such a horrific act.
In the meanwhile Muslims slaughter Muslims en-masse for DECADES and jump for joy in public.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 16, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I just gave a couple.

You need to keep up.


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> My favorite strawman.
> ONE Jew is assassinated by ONE Jew and we pretty much went into a universal state of mourning over such a horrific act.
> In the meanwhile Muslims slaughter Muslims en-masse for DECADES and jump for joy in public.



Tell the Jews on the Altalena, that Jews don't kill Jews.

Altalena Affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > My favorite strawman.
> ...



Still fishing and trying to compare.
The vessel was filled with Jewish Jews.
The original pioneers of Israel were self-hating Jews; everybody knows that.


And I'm sure you've prepared a third installment.
You DO have a third installment?


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## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Still fishing and trying to compare.
> The vessel was filled with Jewish Jews.
> The original pioneers of Israel were self-hating Jews; everybody knows that.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, did you just state that the first Zionists were self-hating Jews?

That's some very interesting and valuable quote material.

Thank you.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You showed a couple of phony videos. Pallywood.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Still fishing and trying to compare.
> ...



You didn't know this already?
Most of the genetic Jews that came from Europe wanted a secular nation.
That's one of the reasons they begged the WBJs not to leave when Jordan wanted to start rolling in with their tanks.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> You didn't know this already?
> Most of the genetic Jews that came from Europe wanted a secular nation.
> That's one of the reasons they begged the WBJs not to leave when Jordan wanted to start rolling in with their tanks.



So a Zionist that wants Israel to be a secular state and not run by Jewish religious law, is a self-hating Jew?  Interesting.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I have checked, and you haven't given any examples at all.  You need to stop trying to squirm out of that one.  Tell us, how do Jews visit Gaza all the time in complete safety?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't know this already?
> ...



They were openly honest about being vehemently non-Torah observant, but humanistic.
I have known people of all religions who hate their religion; to them it's not good enough to simply be a person, they actually voice contempt for the religion into they were born.

That also blows away your "historical facts" that they wanted to rid themselves of the WBJs; that was a LONG term plan, not short term.


----------



## toastman (Feb 16, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



He does this all the time. You ask him for examples, and he claims he gave some


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> They were openly honest about being vehemently non-Torah observant, but humanistic.
> I have known people of all religions who hate their religion; to them it's not good enough to simply be a person, they actually voice contempt for the religion into they were born.
> 
> That also blows away your "historical facts" that they wanted to rid themselves of the WBJs; that was a LONG term plan, not short term.



Funny as the non-Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews might call you "self-hating", because of your hate and intolerant views towards your fellow Jews.

I've never heard a Jew call another Jew "self-hating" just because they believe in a secular Jewish state.  Thank you for enlightening me.

 [MENTION=44172]Sweet_Caroline[/MENTION]
 [MENTION=35705]Phoenall[/MENTION]
 [MENTION=39069]toastman[/MENTION]
 [MENTION=15726]Hossfly[/MENTION]
 [MENTION=20204]Kondor3[/MENTION]


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > They were openly honest about being vehemently non-Torah observant, but humanistic.
> ...



There you go with your mentions again.  We reply to what we want and when we want and we don't run to threads because the playground tell-tale orders us.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > They were openly honest about being vehemently non-Torah observant, but humanistic.
> ...



Wow! You are naïve.
Being non-Observant, as I was growing up, did NOT foster in me a sense of loathing for either Judaism as an abstract or for Observant Jews.

Even the phrase Observant Jews is relative...
I'm am NOT Observant compared to Moshe, David, Rebbi or Rav Feinstein.
I study by myself and with others and, being a human being, have my own inclinations.

A truly Torah Observant person would NOT be posting on a forum; I would either be studying with others or engaged in a community activity helping others.

None of the above users seem to hate their Jewish heritage and all I am doing is enjoying their intelligence, insight and pride in their ancestry.
I am also trying to sprinkle some actual Torah knowledge onto a subject because some people here spout things out after spending 10 seconds on Wikipedia.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > They were openly honest about being vehemently non-Torah observant, but humanistic.
> ...


I'm not Jewish, Herr Weil Ich Weiss and there's no such thing as a"self-hating Jew". Just a person who hates himself for whatever reason. BTW, are you enjoying your occasional trip to Gaza? Have you completed the course in Jihad yet?


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 16, 2014)

Hossfly, Victory67, _et al,_

There are functions in mathematics where the equation becomes "undefined;" when  expression is evaluated for input values outside of its domain.  The equation makes absolute sense until you reach a specific point; and may even make sense beyond that point.   But at that specific point - there is no rule in math to cover it; and so we say "result has no meaning" _(it becomes an undefined rational expression)_.



Hossfly said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Arab culture, for many of us, is an undefined equation that sets reality to a condition that apparently contradicts itself and yet might be true; we say "paradox."  The doctrine of todays Arab Culture sees the plight and condition of the Jews as "undefined."  The simply cannot see result which makes sense to them.  So, in a very heartless and cruel way, the Arab _(much like the mathematician)_ draws a circle around that point and ignores it.  They simply see the Jewish People as a naturally occurring anomaly that makes not sense to them --- and so they simply ignore it.  Oh, they know the Jews are there, because they drew a circle around them; but, they focus on the numbers with meaning to them _(favoring the status of the established inhabitants that make sense to them)_.  They do this because they cannot assimilate them, they cannot use them, they don't understand them, and even their symbology is alien to them _(the Star of David so radically different from the Crescent Moon)_.  It is the fixation you often hear when they refer to the Jews as foreigners.  To the Arab, there is nothing that can be more important then themselves _(ethnocentric)_ and nothing least important or relevant than the foreigner _(nativism)_.  To consider it from any other perspective makes absolutely no sense to them (the Arab).

Some cultures, over time, grow out of this and realize that the "undefined" term (the Jews) actually has meaning and value.  Not the Arab; not yet!  Maybe never!

So, in the Western Cultures, developing on past the social norms of the 14th Century, some aspects of morality as simply beyond rational discussion with the Arab.  The Arab  narcissism and arrogance to assume that they were never wrong in the historic rise of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (virtual victim syndrome) is something that needs to be understood and accommodated just like any other disability.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Sally (Feb 16, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



When that video was shown of the summer camp in Gaza, I was wondering if Herr Weil Ich Weiss was a counselor there.  In many groups of people, you will find self-hating types who hate themselves for what they are -- be it their religion, their race, their ethnicity.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> I'm not Jewish, Herr Weil Ich Weiss and there's no such thing as a"self-hating Jew". Just a person who hates himself for whatever reason. BTW, are you enjoying your occasional trip to Gaza? Have you completed the course in Jihad yet?



 [MENTION=46133]Indeependent[/MENTION] and [MENTION=36253]Sally[/MENTION] disagree with you.

I wish you Zionists could agree at least once.  On at least one thing.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not Jewish, Herr Weil Ich Weiss and there's no such thing as a"self-hating Jew". Just a person who hates himself for whatever reason. BTW, are you enjoying your occasional trip to Gaza? Have you completed the course in Jihad yet?
> ...



That's because, as a Jew who wears a yalmulka, I encounter non-observant Jews, including relatives, who react to my presence in a manner in which they would not react to Hossfly.

I have a simple response for those who remark that I cannot eat because "the food has not been blessed by a rabbi"...More for you!

"You can't drive to the party Friday night?"...Nope, I'm eating with my family, taking a short nap and having sex with {my wife's name};  you?

"Doesn't that yarmulke drive you crazy?"
It covers my bald spot and protects me from rain.

And assorted others.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Hossfly, Victory67, _et al,_
> 
> There are functions in mathematics where the equation becomes "undefined;" when  expression is evaluated for input values outside of its domain.  The equation makes absolute sense until you reach a specific point; and may even make sense beyond that point.   But at that specific point - there is no rule in math to cover it; and so we say "result has no meaning" _(it becomes an undefined rational expression)_.
> 
> ...


I have encountered and reacted with a number of Arab Muslims from various countries, different cultures and sects. I mostly find them to be overbearing, jealous, vindictive over the slightest imagined insult and somewhat childish. I don't hold it against them for I know it's their nature. They are to be pitied.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> So, in the Western Cultures, developing on past the social norms of the 14th Century, some aspects of morality as simply beyond rational discussion with the Arab.  The Arab  narcissism and arrogance* to assume that they were never wrong in the historic rise of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict* (virtual victim syndrome) is something that needs to be understood and accommodated just like any other disability.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R



Respectfully, R - how then do you analyze the fact that the Israeli's (or pro-Israelis) refuse to see any wrong done on their side in the rise of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?  How do you explain the fact that they and their supporters are constantly painting themselves as victims?

I'm thinking your analysis might be a bit one-sided here.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> So, in the Western Cultures, developing on past the social norms of the 14th Century, some aspects of morality as simply beyond rational discussion with the Arab.  The Arab narcissism and arrogance to assume that they were never wrong in the historic rise of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (virtual victim syndrome) is something that needs to be understood and accommodated just like any other disability.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R



Meanwhile anyone who criticizes Israel or the settlements is called a "Nazi anti-Semite".

Anyone who accuses the Israelis of racist actions is called a "Nazi anti-Semite".

Looks like Zionists are the narcissists who think they can do no wrong.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > So, in the Western Cultures, developing on past the social norms of the 14th Century, some aspects of morality as simply beyond rational discussion with the Arab.  The Arab  narcissism and arrogance* to assume that they were never wrong in the historic rise of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict* (virtual victim syndrome) is something that needs to be understood and accommodated just like any other disability.
> ...



In the last 20 years, Israel has elected as Prime Minister at least TWO men who agreed to give up a heck of a lot of land for peace.
Each time, Arafat's wife called him and reminded him to keep sending the checks.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



And wasn't one of them assassinated by his own people for that?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > So, in the Western Cultures, developing on past the social norms of the 14th Century, some aspects of morality as simply beyond rational discussion with the Arab.  The Arab narcissism and arrogance to assume that they were never wrong in the historic rise of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (virtual victim syndrome) is something that needs to be understood and accommodated just like any other disability.
> ...



That's mostly verbage used by those of limited vocabulary who find themselves unable to form coherent arguments


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yes...ONE.
How many Muslims has been assassinated or murdered in the same period of time for speaking their minds.
And BTW, he was replaced by an even BIGGER Dove.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > So, in the Western Cultures, developing on past the social norms of the 14th Century, some aspects of morality as simply beyond rational discussion with the Arab.  The Arab  narcissism and arrogance* to assume that they were never wrong in the historic rise of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict* (virtual victim syndrome) is something that needs to be understood and accommodated just like any other disability.
> ...



I think you're off base here.

I don't think any poster here believes Israel is 100% right all the time. It's an interpertavvfdnv....whatever the word is... of other posters, here.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Mhmm, I wish I could use these words again, too bad I can't. I'm not allowed to use the N word, so others have to use it for me


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> That's mostly verbage used by those of limited vocabulary who find themselves unable to form coherent arguments





stop saying smart things that I can't give Positive Reputations to.


----------



## Sally (Feb 16, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Of course nobody believes that Israel or any other country is perfect all the time.  However, when you see what is happening around the world today and some people are only focused on Israel and close their eyes to what is happening (no matter how many innocent people are killed), that tells you an awful lot about that poster.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Sally said:


> Of course nobody believes that Israel or any other country is perfect all the time.  However, when you see what is happening around the world today and some people are only focused on Israel and close their eyes to what is happening (no matter how many innocent people are killed), that tells you an awful lot about that poster.



There are people in this forum who call anyone and everyone who criticizes Israel, a Neo-Nazi anti-Semite.

I know they are just clowns, but they reflect a larger dementia.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > That's mostly verbage used by those of limited vocabulary who find themselves unable to form coherent arguments
> ...



you have no rep to give


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Of course nobody believes that Israel or any other country is perfect all the time.  However, when you see what is happening around the world today and some people are only focused on Israel and close their eyes to what is happening (no matter how many innocent people are killed), that tells you an awful lot about that poster.
> ...



You revise history.

You also haven't answered my question concerning valid historical records.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> You revise history.
> 
> You also haven't answered my question concerning valid historical records.



No I am stating facts and you are either blind or a liar.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You revise history.
> ...



David, solomon and the israelis/jews live and ruled the land before the arab came conquering and killing their way through the region.
Even though jews were forced outward in the diasporas, be it assyrians, babylonians, romans or arabs, they never gave up their identity or their claim to their homeland.
Evan going back to Abraham and Joseph, and Moses guiding the jews back.  It was their land


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote, Victory67, _et al,_

Being "wrong" is all a part of the human experience.



Coyote said:


> Respectfully, R - how then do you analyze the fact that the Israeli's (or pro-Israelis) refuse to see any wrong done on their side in the rise of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?  How do you explain the fact that they and their supporters are constantly painting themselves as victims?
> 
> I'm thinking your analysis might be a bit one-sided here.


*(COMMENT)*

Clearly, there is - associated with the Israeli, an entire list of events where their decisions were "wrong."  I, least of all, would never claim that in every calamity or serious event, in the sorted history of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, would claim that Israel was entirely right, or in the right, or even holding the moral high ground.  _(That would be a foolish position to hold.)_

Rarely do you find that the Israeli, themselves, claim to be the victim.  On the contrary, they overreact to assure that they are not the victim.  It is the consensus of the Western World that they were, for centuries, the victim and required special attention, much like an endangered species, to insure that they have a habitat (Jewish National Home) for their preservation.

But to suggest that they were always in the right, is something that we cannot say.  The best we could say, is that they have been, until the last decades of the 20th Century, less wrong.  



Victory67 said:


> Meanwhile anyone who criticizes Israel or the settlements is called a "Nazi anti-Semite".
> 
> Anyone who accuses the Israelis of racist actions is called a "Nazi anti-Semite".
> 
> Looks like Zionists are the narcissists who think they can do no wrong.


*(COMMENT)*

Certainly, it is fair to criticize the Israel with fear of being called a "Nazi anti-Semite."  But it is totally unfair, and incorrect to attempt to exaggerate some of the Israeli reactions as "apartheid, racist, and genocidal."  Clearly, if these labels were true, then the total complexion of the region, including the domestic interior of Israel itself, would be much different.  The ground truth tells you this; to the point it might be considered self-evident.

Like all cultures, Israel being no exception, there are differing factions within it.  To be a Zionism is about a cause _(that supports the creation of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the Land of Israel)_.  Most Zionist are Israeli; but, most Israelis are not Zionists.  Whoever, not all Zionists are either Israeli or Jewish.  Depending on the definition of "Israel," I might be considered a non-Jewish Zionist.  _(However, I can tell you that it get you no points with the Israelis for supporting their cause.  They have a tendency to look down upon Americans such as I.)_ 

But still, it would be a mistake to think that "apartheid, racism and genocide" are a part of the Israeli agenda.  If it had been, there would not be so many as 5M refugees wanting the right of return.  It would have been a much smaller number.  Instead, the number grows daily.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> David, solomon and the israelis/jews live and ruled the land before the arab came conquering and killing their way through the region.
> Even though jews were forced outward in the diasporas, be it assyrians, babylonians, romans or arabs, they never gave up their identity or their claim to their homeland.



Joshua, David, and Solomon brutally conquered the land from the native Canaanites.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > David, solomon and the israelis/jews live and ruled the land before the arab came conquering and killing their way through the region.
> ...



"Canaan (pronounced /&#712;ke&#618;n&#601;n/ since c. AD 1500, due to the Great Vowel Shift) comes from the Hebrew &#1499;&#1504;&#1506;&#1503; (kn&#703;n), via Greek &#935;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#940;&#957; Khanaan and Latin Canaan. It appears as KUR ki-na-ah-na in the Amarna letters (14th century BC), and kn&#703;n is found on coins from Phoenicia in the last half of the 1st millennium. It first occurs in Greek in the writings of Hecataeus as Khna(&#935;&#957;&#8118.[10] The Bible derives the name from that of an alleged ancestor, Canaan son of Ham. Scholars connect the name Canaan with kn&#703;n, Kana'an, the general Northwest Semitic name for this region." @


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> "Canaan (pronounced /&#712;ke&#618;n&#601;n/ since c. AD 1500, due to the Great Vowel Shift) comes from the Hebrew &#1499;&#1504;&#1506;&#1503; (kn&#703;n), via Greek &#935;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#940;&#957; Khanaan and Latin Canaan. It appears as KUR ki-na-ah-na in the Amarna letters (14th century BC), and kn&#703;n is found on coins from Phoenicia in the last half of the 1st millennium. It first occurs in Greek in the writings of Hecataeus as Khna(&#935;&#957;&#8118.[10] The Bible derives the name from that of an alleged ancestor, Canaan son of Ham. Scholars connect the name Canaan with kn&#703;n, Kana'an, the general Northwest Semitic name for this region." @



Yes, and the Hebrews brutally conquered these people.

Along with the Phillistines and the Edomites.


----------



## Sally (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > "Canaan (pronounced /&#712;ke&#618;n&#601;n/ since c. AD 1500, due to the Great Vowel Shift) comes from the Hebrew &#1499;&#1504;&#1506;&#1503; (kn&#703;n), via Greek &#935;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#940;&#957; Khanaan and Latin Canaan. It appears as KUR ki-na-ah-na in the Amarna letters (14th century BC), and kn&#703;n is found on coins from Phoenicia in the last half of the 1st millennium. It first occurs in Greek in the writings of Hecataeus as Khna(&#935;&#957;&#8118.[10] The Bible derives the name from that of an alleged ancestor, Canaan son of Ham. Scholars connect the name Canaan with kn&#703;n, Kana'an, the general Northwest Semitic name for this region." @
> ...



And the Muslims brutally conquered the original Christians in the Middle East countries, and now the descendents of those who were lucky enough to survive the Muslim onslaught can't even practice their religion in peace.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > "Canaan (pronounced /&#712;ke&#618;n&#601;n/ since c. AD 1500, due to the Great Vowel Shift) comes from the Hebrew &#1499;&#1504;&#1506;&#1503; (kn&#703;n), via Greek &#935;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#940;&#957; Khanaan and Latin Canaan. It appears as KUR ki-na-ah-na in the Amarna letters (14th century BC), and kn&#703;n is found on coins from Phoenicia in the last half of the 1st millennium. It first occurs in Greek in the writings of Hecataeus as Khna(&#935;&#957;&#8118.[10] The Bible derives the name from that of an alleged ancestor, Canaan son of Ham. Scholars connect the name Canaan with kn&#703;n, Kana'an, the general Northwest Semitic name for this region." @
> ...



Israel was friends and traders with the Phoenicians who lived in the norther region of the coast.

Philistines were sea invaders from the Aegean.   Edomites were decendants of abraham from Esau.  Cousins of the Israelis.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > "Canaan (pronounced /&#712;ke&#618;n&#601;n/ since c. AD 1500, due to the Great Vowel Shift) comes from the Hebrew &#1499;&#1504;&#1506;&#1503; (kn&#703;n), via Greek &#935;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#940;&#957; Khanaan and Latin Canaan. It appears as KUR ki-na-ah-na in the Amarna letters (14th century BC), and kn&#703;n is found on coins from Phoenicia in the last half of the 1st millennium. It first occurs in Greek in the writings of Hecataeus as Khna(&#935;&#957;&#8118.[10] The Bible derives the name from that of an alleged ancestor, Canaan son of Ham. Scholars connect the name Canaan with kn&#703;n, Kana'an, the general Northwest Semitic name for this region." @
> ...




Deuteronomy 18:9-14

New King James Version (NKJV)


Avoid Wicked Customs

9 When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations.  10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,  11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.  12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.  13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God.  14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you.

So first it's a Fairy Tale.
Then it's NOT a Fairy Tale.

It's takes a brutal conquest to get rid of brutal people.
Or do you pick and choose your verses?

Try reading sometime; something other than Wikipedia


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Deuteronomy 18:9-14
> 
> New King James Version (NKJV)
> 
> ...



Let me elaborate.  The stuff about miracles is all lies and fantasy.  Many of the historical things might be true but they are corroborated nowhere.

Happy now dumbass?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > "Canaan (pronounced /&#712;ke&#618;n&#601;n/ since c. AD 1500, due to the Great Vowel Shift) comes from the Hebrew &#1499;&#1504;&#1506;&#1503; (kn&#703;n), via Greek &#935;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#940;&#957; Khanaan and Latin Canaan. It appears as KUR ki-na-ah-na in the Amarna letters (14th century BC), and kn&#703;n is found on coins from Phoenicia in the last half of the 1st millennium. It first occurs in Greek in the writings of Hecataeus as Khna(&#935;&#957;&#8118.[10] The Bible derives the name from that of an alleged ancestor, Canaan son of Ham. Scholars connect the name Canaan with kn&#703;n, Kana'an, the general Northwest Semitic name for this region." @
> ...


I think I read somewhere that Joshua was given the task to drive out all other people from the land. Or he wouldn't get any Christmas presents..


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> I think I read somewhere that Joshua was given the task to drive out all other people from the land. Or he wouldn't get any Christmas presents..



The Muslims read the Torah and learned that its ok for foreigners to invade and conquer The Holy Land.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Deuteronomy 18:9-14
> ...



Such as?
Be specific.

By the way...What IS a miracle?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Such as?
> Be specific.
> 
> By the way...What IS a miracle?



Jesus walking on water.  Jesus turning water into wine.

Jesus healing the sick and giving sight to the blind.

All miracles.  All silly Bible fantasy.  Just like all the miracle garbage in your Torah.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Such as?
> ...



Since I asked the question provide examples from the Torah.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 16, 2014)

Believing in a myth called "Palestine" makes less sense than believing in Biblical miracles.

Ahm just sayin'...


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Believing in a myth called "Palestine" makes less sense than believing in Biblical miracles.
> 
> Ahm just sayin'...



And yet we had the Mandate for Palestine.

We had the Palestine Post.

We had the Palestine Philharmonic.

We had the Palestine Pound.

We had Palestine passports.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 16, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Believing in a myth called "Palestine" makes less sense than believing in Biblical miracles.
> 
> Ahm just sayin'...


It's no different than the myth that God "chose" you over other people.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Believing in a myth called "Palestine" makes less sense than believing in Biblical miracles.
> ...



Palestinian Suicide Bombers.

So there MUST be a Palestine!


----------



## toastman (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Believing in a myth called "Palestine" makes less sense than believing in Biblical miracles.
> ...





But no country name Palestine.


----------



## Sally (Feb 16, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Say, maybe he can tell us what the Palestine Post is called today and who runs it.  At the World's Fair in New York in 1940, the Palestine booth was manned by Jews.  In those days if you called an Arab a Palestinians, you were insulting him because you were insinuating that he was a Jew.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Sally said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



Mrs. Arafat's French Castle Post


----------



## Lipush (Feb 16, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Believing in a myth called "Palestine" makes less sense than believing in Biblical miracles.
> ...



That's a missed interpretation.

God chose the Jews to recive the Torah, it doesn't mean Jews are better or worse than other people.

Jews are called "Ha'Am HaNivchar" ('The chosen people') and not "Ha'Am HaMuvchar" ('The prime people')


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Believing in a myth called "Palestine" makes less sense than believing in Biblical miracles.
> ...




Palestine Post > Jerusalem Post
Palestine Philharmonic > Israel Philharmonic
Palestine Pound (written in Hebrew) > Israeli lira > shekel
Mandatory Palestine passport > Jordanian Passport > Palestinian Authority Passport


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



It's even more severe than that.
Ahm seh-goo-lah...Designated Nation
seh-goo-lah...Designated...tough luck guys, it's your responsibility to show other people how to behave.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Lipush said:


> That's a missed interpretation.
> 
> God chose the Jews to recive the Torah, it doesn't mean Jews are better or worse than other people.
> 
> Jews are called "Ha'Am HaNivchar" ('The chosen people') and not "Ha'Am HaMuvchar" ('The prime people')



In an October 2010 sermon, Yosef stated that *"The sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews". He said that Gentiles served a divine purpose: "Why are Gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat. That is why Gentiles were created."[71]*

In the same article in The Jerusalem Post, according to the journalist who interviewed him, Yosef compared Gentiles to donkeys whose life has the sole purpose to serve the master: *"In Israel, death has no dominion over them... With gentiles, it will be like any person  they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one's donkey would die, they'd lose their money. This is his servant... That's why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew. Gentiles were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world  only to serve the People of Israel."*[72]

Ovadia Yosef - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > That's a missed interpretation.
> ...



One Jew said this and a Billion Muslims cried, "Kill the Jews!".
Next!


----------



## Roudy (Feb 16, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha!


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> One Jew said this and a Billion Muslims cried, "Kill the Jews!".
> Next!



This one Jews was mourned by 1 million Israeli Jews when he died.

And thank God this racist devil died.  He caused a lot of anti-Semitism.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > One Jew said this and a Billion Muslims cried, "Kill the Jews!".
> ...



I've heard from people who followed his career that he was a little off the beam.
Yet all of these people are still alive!
And he isn't.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Roudy (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > I think I read somewhere that Joshua was given the task to drive out all other people from the land. Or he wouldn't get any Christmas presents..
> ...


Ah I see. So that's why Jews have been one of the most peaceful people throughout the millennia and Muslims the most violent. Thanks for the clarification.

According to Defeat67 Jews are now responsible for Islamic barbarism, not Mohammad.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > That's a missed interpretation.
> ...



One miserable quote of Rabbi Ovadia and you wave it around endlessly.

Maran was a respected figure. But he was not God!

Next.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 16, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > One Jew said this and a Billion Muslims cried, "Kill the Jews!".
> ...


 he died at the age of 93.

At that age most people tend to die.

No need to thank God. Human body gives up at that age.

True story.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 16, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 16, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Nice interpretation.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 16, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



There are Jews in the ISM. Neturei Karta visited twice. Code Pink, a predominately Jewish organization, has been to Gaza three times. The free Gaza boats that got through to Gaza had Jews on them. The convoys to Gaza had Jews. Richard Goldstone is a Jew.

I have seen no reports of any attacks.


----------



## Sally (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



But, Mr. Tinmore, all you are doing is really just mentioning Leftist Jews who went into Gaza.  Your buddies love these Leftist Jews because they are helping your buddies' cause.  Meanwhile, can you tell us of any ordinary Jews who have visited Gaza the way that many ordinary Jews have visited Jordan for the day.  I was told that the Jordanians treated these visiting Jews very nicely on their visit.  These Code Pink Ladies remind me of Cindy Sheehan who called Hugo Chavez her good friend.  By the way, if Goldstone was in Gaza, it was only to gather information for his report.

Jewish Bubba: Anti-Israel: Code Pink Ladies


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 16, 2014)

Sally said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



OK, so?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You are so silly, would you like me to post 100 pages listing all of the attacks?  In the past when we've pointed out such savage attacks your response was "well what were these Jews doing in a war zone?"  You can't have it both ways, bozo.


----------



## Sally (Feb 16, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



What Mr. Tinmore would never mention, with regard to the ISM, is that they allowed an armed terrorist to hide out in their office, and this terrorist consequently went to Mike's Place and blew himself up, killing several innocent people and wounding many others.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 16, 2014)

Sally said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Until the Zionists leave Zion, there are NO innocent people!!!!!!
Ach!!!


----------



## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Do you think any posters here believe the Palestinians are right 100% of the time?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 16, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Coyote, Victory67, _et al,_
> 
> Being "wrong" is all a part of the human experience.
> 
> ...



What I meant when I said "victim" is that Israel (and it's supporters here) frequently seek to portray Israel as the victim of the media, the UN, of world opinion etc even when they are on the wrong - for example building settlements, the inequities in granting of permits for building or expansions,  or the treatment of Palestinian children in the justice system. 

Any attempt to discuss those issues is met with the predictable - everyone picks on poor little Israel, yet they are real injustices.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 16, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Do you have a list of attacks on those Jews visiting Gaza.

Links?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote, Victory67, _et al,_
> ...



We cannot help it if Israel singles itself out.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 16, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


That info is classified, Tinmore. You don't have the need to know and the proper clearance. You're a dweeb.
http://www.sportsmansdaily.com/thescrum/wp-content/dweeb21.jpg


----------



## toastman (Feb 16, 2014)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote, Victory67, _et al,_
> ...



LOL such a load of crap. You know very well that it is the Palestinians and their supporters who play the victim card all the time.
Hamas and Gazans are experts when it comes to that, so please


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Ah why bother. We've posted them many times before, and your response was "what are they doing in a war zone". You think any and all savagery by Hamas animals is justified.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 17, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Ah why bother. We've posted them many times before, and your response was "what are they doing in a war zone". You think any and all savagery by Hamas animals is justified.


You think every member of Hamas, is a savage animal.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 17, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


...because HE couldn't bring HIMSELF to give it to the Zionists.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 17, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> It's even more severe than that.
> Ahm seh-goo-lah...Designated Nation
> seh-goo-lah...Designated...tough luck guys, it's your responsibility to show other people how to behave.


That's because you're showing others how _*NOT TO BEHAVE.*_


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ah why bother. We've posted them many times before, and your response was "what are they doing in a war zone". You think any and all savagery by Hamas animals is justified.
> ...


Of course, just as every member of Al Queda is an animal. What's the difference?  Same Islamic terrorist animal, different geographic location.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Wow that made a lot of sense. Try again.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 17, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Wow that made a lot of sense. Try again.


Zionists have about as much to do with Judaism, as a whore does to virginity.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 17, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Of course, just as every member of Al Queda is an animal. What's the difference?  Same Islamic terrorist animal, different geographic location.


One is a terrorist organization, the other is an elected government, "called" a terrorist organization.

*When Hamas does "street improvements" in a Gaza neighborhood, then the IDF comes along later and shoots out the lamps at the top of the light standards, which group committed the terrorist act?​*Inquiring minds wanna know!


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 17, 2014)

toastman said:


> LOL such a load of crap. You know very well that it is the Palestinians and their supporters who play the victim card all the time.
> Hamas and Gazans are experts when it comes to that, so please



I giggle when a Jew accuses others of playing the victim all the time.

I giggle uncontrollably.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Wow that made a lot of sense. Try again.
> ...


Nope, try again, this time without it being a drug induced response.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > LOL such a load of crap. You know very well that it is the Palestinians and their supporters who play the victim card all the time.
> ...


Sometimes when people are defeated in a humiliating fashion, they giggle uncontrollably.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, just as every member of Al Queda is an animal. What's the difference?  Same Islamic terrorist animal, different geographic location.
> ...


Nope, both are declared and classified as terrorist organizations by the US and most Western Govt.'s. so the punishment for doing business with Al Queda or Hamas or Hezbollah are all the same.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 17, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > LOL such a load of crap. You know very well that it is the Palestinians and their supporters who play the victim card all the time.
> ...


Who plays the victim? As for giggling like a sissy, sucking the gas out of baloons causes that effect.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...





 Don't you mean the arab muslims, who had to make one up of their own and found that the weekend was already booked for Sabbaths.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Wow that made a lot of sense. Try again.
> ...





 And muslims have as much to do with peace as Hitler had to flower arranging


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, just as every member of Al Queda is an animal. What's the difference?  Same Islamic terrorist animal, different geographic location.
> ...






 And your source for this happening is who ? ? ? ? ? ?


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, just as every member of Al Queda is an animal. What's the difference?  Same Islamic terrorist animal, different geographic location.
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1MVqe7r72M&hd=1]Mobile Hot asphalt plant - gaza strip - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, just as every member of Al Queda is an animal. What's the difference?  Same Islamic terrorist animal, different geographic location.
> ...


Eh get over it, Taliban and Al Queda would also engage in "street improvements" and provide other services in Afghanistan. That's because they had toppled the govt and turned it into a failed state, which is exactly what has happened in Gaza. 

None of those "services" fooled anybody.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 17, 2014)

Coyote,  _et al,_

In fact, there is some truth here.



Coyote said:


> What I meant when I said "victim" is that Israel (and it's supporters here) frequently seek to portray Israel as the victim of the media, the UN, of world opinion etc even when they are on the wrong - for example building settlements, the inequities in granting of permits for building or expansions,  or the treatment of Palestinian children in the justice system.
> 
> Any attempt to discuss those issues is met with the predictable - everyone picks on poor little Israel, yet they are real injustices.


*(OBSERVATION)*

You make an important point and I would like to, no matter how inadequately, attempt a response.


In part, the lack of discussion is based on the lack of understanding that Westerners have relative to "what is justice" - in comparison to - "what is justice" in the eyes of the Arab-Palestinian world.

No matter how dramatic the justice dispensed by the Israelis may seem to be inappropriate by our standards, locally (Palestinian-wise) and regional Arab-wise, it is relatively mild (less harsh).  Justice is in the eyes of the Arab is vindictive and commercial.  A death sentence is not a death sentence, but an initial point in the negotiation for acceptance of blood-money _(diya)_; a bribe to the family for the life of the perpetrator.  "Life" does not have the same meaning or reverence in the Arab world as it has in the West.  Life has a monetary value.

Even as I type this, over the last week, Palestinian security forces _(mostly presidential guards and the counter-terrorism units)_ have been raiding houses in the city and refugee camps --- and clashing with gunmen and rioting youths, as the Palestinian Authority (PA) tries to establish security in a increasingly restless and volatile populace, in a crackdown on drugs and weapons.  Whatever you may think of clashes between the Israeli and the Palestinian, the clashes between their own are much worse.  And the PA Security Forces are not so concerned about the civil rights and liberties as you would think they are given the tears and complaints about the Israelis.  But make no mistake, a bigger band of thugs with guns you'll not find than the Palestinian Presidential Guard.


In part, the lack of discussion is based on the lack of understanding in the comparative severity of the allegations.  However, the reverse is not true.  The Arab-Palestinian understands the difference quite well.

There is no question that the issue of building settlements, granting permits and juvenile detention are all important.  But there are several magnitudes of difference between those issues and that of: _(excluding indiscriminate rocket fire)_
Private Eden Atias was killed after being stabbed in the neck while on a bus in the northern Israeli city of Afula. 
Seraya Ofer, a retired IDF colonel, was murdered in a suspected terror attack outside his home in the northern Jordan Valley.
Gavriel Kobi, a combat soldier in the Givati Brigade, was shot and killed by a Palestinian sniper while on guard duty positioned outside the holy Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron.
Tomer Hazan, a non-combat sergeant in the Air force and a Bat Yam native, was lured by a Palestinian acquaintance - Nidal Amar - to the village of Beit Amin near Qalqilya in the West Bank. Amar took Hazan to an open field, murdered him and threw the body into a well. Amar was supposedlt hoping to use corpse to extort the release of his terrorist brother from Israeli jail.

There is a much greater difference between non-lethal issues and those of a lethal nature.  
The real issues that need to be addressed are those that can be negotiated by peaceful means. 

Over 60 years of conflict have had an adverse impact on how the belligerents see each other. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 17, 2014)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> Even as I type this, over the last week, Palestinian security forces (mostly presidential guards and the counter-terrorism units) have been raiding houses in the city and refugee camps --- and clashing with gunmen and rioting youths, as the Palestinian Authority (PA) tries to establish security in a increasingly restless and volatile populace, in a crackdown on drugs and weapons. Whatever you may think of clashes between the Israeli and the Palestinian, the clashes between their own are much worse. And the PA Security Forces are not so concerned about the civil rights and liberties as you would think they are given the tears and complaints about the Israelis. But make no mistake, a bigger band of thugs with guns you'll not find than the Palestinian Presidential Guard.



The Palestinian security forces are called Dayton's forces in Palestine. They are a project of US General Keith Dayton who recruited and trained these forces and coordinates their activities with the Israeli military. These forces are paid with US "aid" to the PA. Dayton has since been replaced by another US officer.

Their job requires them to violate Palestine's constitution and the legal rights of the Palestinians. Several people have died under torture by these forces.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 17, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes, oddly enough, I am passing familiar with LTG Dayton.  We were in Iraq at the same time, but not in the chain of command.  He was with the ISG.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, the US provided the aid and the training.  But the US did not command the Palestinian National Security Forces (NSF).  MG Nasser Yousef is the Director General of the Palestinian National Security Forces.  The forces are under the control of the Palestinian Authority.  And yes, the US was paying (the last I heard) about $3M annually for the training.  But that is because that the State of Palestine is an old Article 22 nation _(unable to stand on its own)_.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 17, 2014)

Of course Israel's policies affect anti-Semitism.

Its insane to think otherwise.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 17, 2014)

Of course anti Semites will be anti Semites, with or without Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 17, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, oddly enough, I am passing familiar with LTG Dayton.  We were in Iraq at the same time, but not in the chain of command.  He was with the ISG.
> 
> ...



And those are the thugs that you mentioned in your previous post. They are also the thugs that Hamas ran out of Gaza in 2007. They are also the thugs who illegally helped the losers of the elections, Fatah, back in power in the West Bank.


----------



## toastman (Feb 17, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Wow that made a lot of sense. Try again.
> ...



Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a country in the State of Israel, you moron

How stupid can you be?? I mean really?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 17, 2014)

toastman said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



a country "in" the State of Israel?

which part?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 17, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


A country is also a State, Cadet.


----------



## toastman (Feb 17, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I meant to say Land of Israel actually


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...







Your English comprehension is lacking, is this because English is not your first language. To a native English speaker it makes perfect sense. Maybe if it was punctuated you might see the truth

 ZIONISM IS THE BELIEF THAT THE JEWS SHOULD HAVE A COUNTRY, IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL, THAT WILL BE FOREVER THEIR HOMELAND


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...






It was a perfectly acceptable piece of English comprehension, just punctuated wrongly. The native English speakers knew what you meant, the semi literate muslims had problems with understanding the context.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes, that is one possible interpretation of events.



P F Tinmore said:


> And those are the thugs that you mentioned in your previous post. They are also the thugs that Hamas ran out of Gaza in 2007. They are also the thugs who illegally helped the losers of the elections, Fatah, back in power in the West Bank.


*(COMMENT)*

But even if I agree to this, it doesn't change the facts or ground truth that it was Palestinian 'vs' Palestinian and had nothing to do with the false implication that these forces were being guided by the US.  

Palestinians are hostile by nature.  And if they are not fighting with their neighbors, they are fighting amongst themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 18, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, that is one possible interpretation of events.
> 
> ...



It is the time honored divide and conquer routine, Rocco, I am surprised that you are unfamiliar with this trick.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


When Israel defends itself and it's Jewish citizens against genocidal rocket shooting terrorist savages, it creates confidence for Jews all over the world that there is a Jewish state that is strong and ready to defend all Jews all over the world.

That, of course makes the anti semites blood boil, because for the first time in since ancient history, Jews are fighting back, and brilliantly.  So, in other words, Israel's very own existence pisses off the antisemites.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



A young Jewish American teen-ager named Alisa Flatow was burned to death while visiting Gaza.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 18, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Link?


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



She was killed in 1995 in a settlement in Gaza


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Her parents were guilty of reckless endangerement of a child by having her live in an illegal settlement.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



She didn't live there.  She went to visit.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> She didn't live there.  She went to visit.



Still reckless endangerement.  Who let's their children visit a war zone?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Your post was misleading. She was not visiting Gaza, she was visiting an Israeli settlement.


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What a disgusting thing to say, and Tinmore is equally disgusting for thanking your post.

BTW, she was an American, and yes, she was just visiting.


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The settlement was IN Gaza, and she was an American citizen.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > She didn't live there.  She went to visit.
> ...


So it's okay for Muslim savage animals to intentionally target and murder children, because they believe they have "rights" to a land that was lost in a defensive war?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


And they wonder why Americans can't stand their beloved death cult.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 18, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Yes!
That doesn't make perfect sense to you?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Roudy said:


> So it's okay for Muslim savage animals to intentionally target and murder children, because they believe they have "rights" to a land that was lost in a defensive war?



No one should kill children.

But if you knowingly put your child in harms way and they are killed, you bear some responsibility.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So it's okay for Muslim savage animals to intentionally target and murder children, because they believe they have "rights" to a land that was lost in a defensive war?
> ...



Thank you for at least admitting the Gazans should take responsibility for their innocents to be killed.  Idiots, the lot of them to do that to their children.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


This and a few hundred or so other instances, otherwise its safe.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So it's okay for Muslim savage animals to intentionally target and murder children, because they believe they have "rights" to a land that was lost in a defensive war?
> ...


When you knowingly blow up school buses and pizzerias filled with kids, and then say "I regret that I couldn't kill more", then you're probably a savage Palestinian / Muslim.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 18, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Eh get over it, Taliban and Al Queda would also engage in "street improvements" and provide other services in Afghanistan. That's because they had toppled the govt and turned it into a failed state, which is exactly what has happened in Gaza.
> 
> None of those "services" fooled anybody.


Hamas was elected,  in a legal, democratic election, that was confirmed by international watchdogs.  The Taliban had the grudging consent of the governed, as well.  I've never seen any instance of a member of al Qaeda running for government in any election, so I don't know what the hell you are talking about there.

As far as "failures" go, the majority of Gaza's, is the direct result of the 47 year occupation by Israeli forces and is not much different than the Warsaw Ghetto.

As far as your last comment, are you claiming "street improvements" is a terrorist act?

And finally, why didn't you answer my question?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 18, 2014)

Roudy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Haven't seen* one *yet


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a country in the State of Israel, you moron
> 
> How stupid can you be?? I mean really?


Zionism is a political movement using Judaism much like a woman uses a tampon, to be discarded when no longer needed.

If Zionism had anything to do with Judaism, then why the big problem with orthodox jews, accepting the Jewish State?

And why the big conflict with The Three Oaths?


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 18, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Your English comprehension is lacking, is this because English is not your first language. To a native English speaker it makes perfect sense. Maybe if it was punctuated you might see the truth
> 
> ZIONISM IS THE BELIEF THAT THE JEWS SHOULD HAVE A COUNTRY, IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL, THAT WILL BE FOREVER THEIR HOMELAND


And the teachings of the Torah say only God can create that country, not man.

It also says jews are to remain in exile until God comes back to earth to create that state.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Of course Israel's actions influence anti-Semitism.


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a country in the State of Israel, you moron
> ...


*
Zionism is a political movement using Judaism much like a woman uses a tampon, to be discarded when no longer needed.*

As usual, you come up with immature and idiotic comparisons that have absolutely no merit to the discussion. Big fail.

*f Zionism had anything to do with Judaism, then why the big problem with orthodox jews, accepting the Jewish State?*

Many Orthodox Jews live in Israel you moron. You must be talking about the very small minority of Orthodox Jews who believe that Israel should have only been created when the Messiah came.
Of course not EVERY Jew will accept it.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



more than 120,000 Orthodox Jews around the world is a pretty large number


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Your English comprehension is lacking, is this because English is not your first language. To a native English speaker it makes perfect sense. Maybe if it was punctuated you might see the truth
> ...



But how do we know that GOD didn't take part in the creation of Israel?

I believe God was present when 5 Arab armies tried to destroy Israel, but the newly founded tiny state which was a fraction of the size of the countries attacking it, from all sides I may add, despite all odds, not only miraculously withstood the offensive, but managed to go on the offensive and capture more land. Then there's the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur war which Israel won as well.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> But how do we know that GOD didn't take part in the creation of Israel?
> 
> I believe God was present when 5 Arab armies tried to destroy Israel, but the newly founded tiny state which was a fraction of the size of the countries attacking it, from all sides I may add, despite all odds, not only miraculously withstood the offensive, but managed to go on the offensive and capture more land. Then there's the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur war which Israel won as well.



So God is involved in all things?  God doesn't let anything happen without his consent and involvement?


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> But how do we know that GOD didn't take part in the creation of Israel?
> 
> I believe God was present when 5 Arab armies tried to destroy Israel, but the newly founded tiny state which was a fraction of the size of the countries attacking it, from all sides I may add, despite all odds, not only miraculously withstood the offensive, but managed to go on the offensive and capture more land. Then there's the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur war which Israel won as well.


How do you know God wasn't the one who sent in those armies, after seeing the behavior of jewish terrorist groups like Irgun?


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Many Orthodox Jews live in Israel you moron. You must be talking about the very small minority of Orthodox Jews who believe that Israel should have only been created when the Messiah came.
> Of course not EVERY Jew will accept it.


Those are weekend worshipers who are not all that religious, personally.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Let's put it this way:  if God helped the Jews defeat the Arabs in 1948, 1967, and 1973, then God also helped the Lebanese push out the Jews in 2000, helped the Palestinians push out the Jews from Gaza in 2005, and let lots of Jews get killed in suicide attacks during the 1st and 2nd Intifada.

If you follow this logic, that God is behind all things, God has allow a shitload of Jews to die in Israel.

Maybe as a lesson to his Chosen People to shape up or face his wrath?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Let's put it this way:  if God helped the Jews defeat the Arabs in 1948, 1967, and 1973, then God also helped the Lebanese push out the Jews in 2000, helped the Palestinians push out the Jews from Gaza in 2005, and let lots of Jews get killed in suicide attacks during the 1st and 2nd Intifada.
> 
> If you follow this logic, that God is behind all things, God has allow a shitload of Jews to die in Israel.
> 
> Maybe as a lesson to his Chosen People to shape up or face his wrath?


We'll find out sooner or later.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Let's put it this way:  if God helped the Jews defeat the Arabs in 1948, 1967, and 1973, then God also helped the Lebanese push out the Jews in 2000, helped the Palestinians push out the Jews from Gaza in 2005, and let lots of Jews get killed in suicide attacks during the 1st and 2nd Intifada.
> ...



Many Orthodox Jews believe that God watches over and enables all things, especially persecutions and suffering of the Jews.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...


I won't disagree with that.


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > But how do we know that GOD didn't take part in the creation of Israel?
> ...



I didn't say that.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



So he's only involved when good things happen to the Jews, not bad?


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Victory67 said:
> ...



I didn't say that either. You are the one making these claims, not me


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Eh get over it, Taliban and Al Queda would also engage in "street improvements" and provide other services in Afghanistan. That's because they had toppled the govt and turned it into a failed state, which is exactly what has happened in Gaza.
> ...


Despite all the mumbo jumbo nonsense you just posted, as with the Taliban, Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by the US Federal govt.  The fact that Hamas happens govern and do street improvements and other services involving day to day governing, does not negate their terrorist standing with the US, Europe, and many other governments.  

Perhaps if they used all the money they get from shady entities towards actually helping their people as opposed to trying to kill more Jewish babies, they wouldn't be such failures.  But then again, it's called Palestinian Mentality (TM).


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Yeah sure.  That's because every time these savages kill, Tinmore believes they had every right to do so.  Tinmore thinks Hamas is a very peaceful organization....Who's members are walking around Gaza with Halo's on their heads.  Ha ha ha.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 18, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I stated that Jews visit Gaza all the time in complete safety.

Nobody has proved otherwise.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > But how do we know that GOD didn't take part in the creation of Israel?
> ...


Yeah, God sent those armies, so that they get humiliated by a bunch of ragtag Jews with a newly formed army.  Way to go.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Let's put it this way:  if God helped the Jews defeat the Arabs in 1948, 1967, and 1973, then God also helped the Lebanese push out the Jews in 2000, helped the Palestinians push out the Jews from Gaza in 2005, and let lots of Jews get killed in suicide attacks during the 1st and 2nd Intifada.
> 
> If you follow this logic, that God is behind all things, God has allow a shitload of Jews to die in Israel.
> 
> Maybe as a lesson to his Chosen People to shape up or face his wrath?


And when will the Arabs learn not to mess with the Israelis, and accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state?  

How many more humiliating defeats will it take? 67?  LOL


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


And we believe you.  

Outrageous claim of the day: Jews are safe in Gaza with Hamas.  

Or is this Palestinian comedy hour?


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Let's put it this way:  if God helped the Jews defeat the Arabs in 1948, 1967, and 1973, then God also helped the Lebanese push out the Jews in 2000, helped the Palestinians push out the Jews from Gaza in 2005, and let lots of Jews get killed in suicide attacks during the 1st and 2nd Intifada.
> 
> If you follow this logic, that God is behind all things, God has allow a shitload of Jews to die in Israel.
> 
> Maybe as a lesson to his Chosen People to shape up or face his wrath?



I have a better question. If Allah is so Ahkbar, like the Palestinian terrorist like to shout, then why has he allowed an even bigger shitload of Palestinians to die ?


----------



## toastman (Feb 18, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Yup, Pallywood had added a comedy show to their program !


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Victory67 said:
> 
> 
> > Let's put it this way:  if God helped the Jews defeat the Arabs in 1948, 1967, and 1973, then God also helped the Lebanese push out the Jews in 2000, helped the Palestinians push out the Jews from Gaza in 2005, and let lots of Jews get killed in suicide attacks during the 1st and 2nd Intifada.
> ...


Answer: Allah has been more Akbar for the Israelis.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I heard there's going to be a new  channel on cable / satellite TV called The Pallywood Channel.  

The motto: "Worldwide HQ for all the Islamist lies and neo Nazi bullshit you've ever heard"


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You stated but you have never proved it.  Your statements are a load of crap anyway.  Nobody takes you seriously.  Even Rocco's patience is tested sometimes when answering your childish claims.


----------



## berilgonzalvis (Feb 19, 2014)

To solve the Israelis problem, the UN should tale some measure.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 19, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Despite all the mumbo jumbo nonsense you just posted,


It's not _"...mumbo jumbo nonsense..."_, if it's true. 




Roudy said:


> as with the Taliban, Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by the US Federal govt.  The fact that Hamas happens govern and do street improvements and other services involving day to day governing, does not negate their terrorist standing with the US, Europe, and many other governments.


I'm not arguing that.  The fact that they are on that list, is not a debatable issue, whether or not they spend all their time committing terrorist acts, is.  It's really a moot point.  Because you're gonna call them terrorists no matter what they do.




Roudy said:


> Perhaps if they used all the money they get from shady entities towards actually helping their people as opposed to trying to kill more Jewish babies, they wouldn't be such failures.  But then again, it's called Palestinian Mentality (TM).


When their banks keep shutting down because of the blockade, how else are they supposed to get money?


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 19, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Yeah, God sent those armies, so that they get humiliated by a bunch of ragtag Jews with a newly formed army.  Way to go.


Those ragtag jews and backing from major western powers.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 19, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I notice that you did not report any attacks.


----------



## toastman (Feb 19, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, God sent those armies, so that they get humiliated by a bunch of ragtag Jews with a newly formed army.  Way to go.
> ...



Not in 1948 or 1967.

BTW the countries that attacked Israel all had backing from other Arab states not involved in the war.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 19, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Eh get over it, Taliban and Al Queda would also engage in "street improvements" and provide other services in Afghanistan. That's because they had toppled the govt and turned it into a failed state, which is exactly what has happened in Gaza.
> ...



Hamas did not win the popular vote, Fatah did by a wide margin.  What Hamas win was by default, because there were so many fatah candidates splitting the votes.
Hamas has not allowed elections since then.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 19, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It is Abbas who is holding up new elections.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



No Abbas has tried many times to hold elections.  Hamas won't allow the elections.

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publica...s/2010/Palestinian_Local_Elections_062010.pdf


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

This is a very good question.  Is Mahmoud Abbas really the problem?



P F Tinmore said:


> It is Abbas who is holding up new elections.


(OBSERVATION)



			
				(MENAFN - Qatar News Agency) Egypt - Fatah: Unity Talks Stalled Until Hamas Agrees to Elections said:
			
		

> The head of Fatah's reconciliation delegation will not travel to Gaza to discuss unity talks until Hamas agrees to hold elections, a Fatah official said Tuesday. Amin Maqboul, the secretary-general of Fatah's revolutionary council, said Azzam al-Ahmad "would not travel to the Gaza Strip before we receive official notification confirming that Hamas has agreed to general elections and a national consensus government,'' reported the Palestinian Maan news agency. Once official confirmation is received al-Ahmad will go to Gaza to reach an agreement on practical steps for implementation. Representatives of various Palestinian political parties held a meeting last Thursday in Gaza to discuss negotiations and national reconciliation. The division between Fatah and Hamas began in 2006, when Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections. In the following year, clashes erupted between Fatah and Hamas, leaving Hamas in control of the Strip and Fatah in control of parts of the occupied West Bank. The groups have made failed attempts at national reconciliation for years, most recently in 2012, when they signed two agreements -- one in Cairo and a subsequent one in Doha -- which have as of yet been entirely unimplemented
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ MENAFN - Qatar News Agency - 19/02/2014



It appears to me that HAMAS is the roadblock.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 19, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> This is a very good question.  Is Mahmoud Abbas really the problem?
> 
> ...



People do not see things that are as obvious as the nose on your face.



> The division between Fatah and Hamas began in 2006, when Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections. In the following year, clashes erupted between Fatah and Hamas, leaving Hamas in control of the Strip and Fatah in control of parts of the occupied West Bank.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 19, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, God sent those armies, so that they get humiliated by a bunch of ragtag Jews with a newly formed army.  Way to go.
> ...


The Jews had a makeshift army with Zero help for the US govt, while the Arabs were well armed client states of Communist Soviet Union, enemies of America. 

The US did not actually start supporting Israel until the mid sixties after Israel had fought all its major wars.  And it did that for US national security purposes, only after it realized that all the Arab states had become puppets of the Soviet Union.  Isn't it funny how Muslims, going back to the Nazis are always on the wrong side of history?


----------



## Roudy (Feb 19, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> This is a very good question.  Is Mahmoud Abbas really the problem?
> 
> ...


Nothing but the total destruction of the state of Israel and murder or eviction of all Jews is an acceptable result to Hamas.  It's in their charter. Even peace negotiations and compromises are forbidden.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 19, 2014)

Roudy; _et al,_

I'm just wondering, given the overwhelming support for Israel in the US, and the overwhelming opposition to the existence of Israel within HAMAS, if the Palestinians have overplayed their hand.



Roudy said:


> Nothing but the total destruction of the state of Israel and murder or eviction of all Jews is an acceptable result to Hamas.  It's in their charter. Even peace negotiations and compromises are forbidden.


*(COMMENT)*

It is becoming quite obvious that, in the times to come _(maybe even the next US Administration)_ that US policy will shift, dumping the two-state solution and cutting loose the fractured and unstable Palestinians.   At some point, the US will have to allow the State of Palestine that latitude _(with zero support)_ to either sink _(failed state)_ or swim _(stand alone)_.  

The US will probably not tolerate the hostile attitude and threats made towards the US by the Palestinians much longer without consequences.  And it is unlikely that the US will support any international move to abandon the near 100 year pledge for the establishment of the Jewish National Home.  There is some concern that the current Administration might be the last administration to openly provide any assistance to the Palestinians; for which a succession of governments could not have continued without US Aid and donations.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 19, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Despite all the mumbo jumbo nonsense you just posted,
> ...






 Why do their banks shut down when the money is already in circulation, that is how the civilised nations operate. They only print more money when the old has become worn out, and then it is burnt. So if the Palestinian banks have $1 million dollars and there are another $10 million in circulation how does the blockade affect the money being spent. The only thing that could cause them to shut down is a run on the banks float, and that would cause a major collapse of the banking system.


 Just another pallywood LIE designed to fool the semi literate ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATERS


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 19, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, God sent those armies, so that they get humiliated by a bunch of ragtag Jews with a newly formed army.  Way to go.
> ...







 Wrong again it was only after 6 months that they were SOLD some outdated tanks from Czechoslovakia. The rest of the western powers did not help until the mid 1950's to mid 1970's.  The Jews fought with old equipment and for their lives, the arabs fought with modern weapons and no heart for the battle


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes, it is quite plain that the Palestinian People, as a culture, have a Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID).  A case of multiple personalities with one portion exhibiting the symptoms of the Islamic Jihadist and Radicalized Fedayeen; and the other face presenting the ever discontent and perpetual victimized features of an unproductive and leaderless society --- unable to control the combative face, and unwilling to accept the conditions they cannot change.  Neither faction willing to compromise in the name of peace in exchange for a new environment more conducive to a prosperous economy.



P F Tinmore said:


> People do not see things that are as obvious as the nose on your face.
> 
> 
> 
> > The division between Fatah and Hamas began in 2006, when Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections. In the following year, clashes erupted between Fatah and Hamas, leaving Hamas in control of the Strip and Fatah in control of parts of the occupied West Bank.


*(COMMENT)*

No one really cares when the terrorist two factions began its clash with its twin as a terrorist.  All that is seen is that the Palestinian would rather continue the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict then to change in the direction of peace.  Soon, it will not matter if it is HAMAS or Fatah that comes out on top.  They are both detrimental to regional security and peace. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Because the vast majority of Jews are not allowed into gaza, only that 1% of True Torah Jews are welcome.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...






Why are you deflecting when you have been proven wrong yet again


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Do you ever feel as though you are conversing with Lewis Carroll?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 19, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, it is quite plain that the Palestinian People, as a culture, have a Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID).  A case of multiple personalities with one portion exhibiting the symptoms of the Islamic Jihadist and Radicalized Fedayeen; and the other face presenting the ever discontent and perpetual victimized features of an unproductive and leaderless society --- unable to control the combative face, and unwilling to accept the conditions they cannot change.  Neither faction willing to compromise in the name of peace in exchange for a new environment more conducive to a prosperous economy.
> 
> ...



You completely missed the point.

Perhaps you should read the quote and not read into the quote.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 19, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Roudy; _et al,_
> 
> I'm just wondering, given the overwhelming support for Israel in the US, and the overwhelming opposition to the existence of Israel within HAMAS, if the Palestinians have overplayed their hand.
> 
> ...


You are correct, whatever advantage this current administration is currently giving to the Palestinians, it against the will of the American people and future administrations will no longer be interested in appeasing the unrealistic terroristic genocidal desires of the Palestinians.


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 19, 2014)

Folks have accused John Kerry of anti-Semitism because of his push for a Israel Palestine peace deal.

The funny thing about this accusation is that it hurts Jews, portrays Jews in a bad light, and increases anti-Semitism.


----------



## Sally (Feb 19, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Folks have accused John Kerry of anti-Semitism because of his push for a Israel Palestine peace deal.
> 
> The funny thing about this accusation is that it hurts Jews, portrays Jews in a bad light, and increases anti-Semitism.




How about all the Christians who have negative thoughts about Kerry and feel he is pushing to get a Nobel Prize.  Does it put these Christians in a bad light to have their opinion of Kerry?


----------



## Victory67 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sally said:


> How about all the Christians who have negative thoughts about Kerry and feel he is pushing to get a Nobel Prize.  Does it put these Christians in a bad light to have their opinion of Kerry?



What's your point?  That some nutcase Apocolyptic Christians hate Kerry because they want a world war to start in Israel to bring forth the Anti-Christ and Jesus' final resurrection?

I'm not interested.  This is about peace and ending anti-semitism.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 19, 2014)

It seems as though Defeat67 is attempting to blame Jews for his hatred towards them.  

Which of course is a common theme repeated by anti semites for hundreds of years.

"The Jews make people hate them" said the Nazis.


----------



## Sally (Feb 19, 2014)

Now how would you know what the ordinary Christian in the U.S. thinks about Kerry?  You want to blame it on one group of Christians, but don't take into consideration the other Christians in the U.S.  As for nut cases, in case you don't notice, the nut cases are murdering innocent people all over the Middle East in the name of their religion.  Perhaps that doesn't bother you.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 19, 2014)

Vast majority of American public (which are Christians) and both houses of Congress strongly support Israel.  Can't handle it?  Too friggin' bad.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 19, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > How about all the Christians who have negative thoughts about Kerry and feel he is pushing to get a Nobel Prize.  Does it put these Christians in a bad light to have their opinion of Kerry?
> ...



So they are nutcases?  Proof?

You are just keep posting (shooting) from the hip without thinking before you post.
I'm sure some are zealots and misinformed fanatical, but those types exist in all religions.
I don't believe in an apocalypse to come, but some really do.  The only apocalypse would be over population, man made nuclear disaster or a global pandemic, not some god sent decimation and tribulation, or vs.

Some people might think Islam, and all muslims, is nuts, but voicing such things are not helpful to any discussion.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 20, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








More like the angel Gabriel that no one else can see and hear.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...






It is because we in the west are cognitive that we can read things many ways at the same time, and we put this to the test all the time. So the reply was valid and met with many peoples POV. Because it did not meet with your narrow POV it was wrong.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 20, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Folks have accused John Kerry of anti-Semitism because of his push for a Israel Palestine peace deal.
> 
> The funny thing about this accusation is that it hurts Jews, portrays Jews in a bad light, and increases anti-Semitism.






 COWFLOP  it shows that the US administration under Obama is inherently racist and anti semitic. When he goes the country will stop appeasing the east and build up it strength again


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 20, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > How about all the Christians who have negative thoughts about Kerry and feel he is pushing to get a Nobel Prize.  Does it put these Christians in a bad light to have their opinion of Kerry?
> ...






 Isn't it iran that have been trying to engineer the islamic version of the end times. Seems that the war in Syria is so the prophesy can come true and the 13 imam can rise out of a well in homs


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



No, he just missed the point.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Nonsense!



P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(QUESTION)*

What is the point I missed?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Nonsense!
> 
> ...



Jees, Rocco, it is only two sentences.



> The division between Fatah and Hamas began in 2006, when Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections. In the following year, clashes erupted between Fatah and Hamas, leaving Hamas in control of the Strip and Fatah in control of parts of the occupied West Bank.



What does it tell you?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



That the leaders of each of these "organizations" want to buy their wives a castle in France.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes, what does it say about the Palestinian?



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

You speak of "the division" _(squabbling and conflict - clashes erupted)_ between _(two factions)_  "Fatah and Hamas" _(a case of multiple personalities within the Palestinians)_.

It is a very clear example of the former Turkish community (Article 22) that have not reached a time - such as they are able to stand alone.   

And, as I said, the internal domestic conflict is such that the world will not really care which one overcomes the other.  They are both detrimental to regional peace and security.  Right now, Fatah is favored over HAMAS; but, that is merely pitting the Fedayeen against the Jihadist.  But in reality, they are all Palestinians with DID. 

No, I didn't miss the point at all.  What you might think is important is not necessarily the important or the salient point as I see it.  It was a short statement about a people that cannot properly exercise self-rule or self-government in such a way that it is productive for its people.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, what does it say about the Palestinian?
> 
> ...





No, it doesn't say that.


----------



## Roudy (Feb 20, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


And then get aids and die.


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


It's to be understood, Ralph.


----------



## toastman (Feb 20, 2014)

I commend Rocco for putting up with Tinmores immaturity


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> I commend Rocco for putting up with Tinmores immaturity


What does that have to do with the thread topic in the OP?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 20, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > I commend Rocco for putting up with Tinmores immaturity
> ...


Go-get-bent.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







No he just missed the point that you saw, he hit the point the rest of the board saw on the head.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...






It tells me that islam and muslims just have to be violent and if they cant find a common enemy they will kill each other for fun. In this case two rival extremist terrorist factions want to control 1 million men and boys who will fight to the death for what their leaders tell them is true. This is to fulfil the commands in the Koran that tell the muslims "TO KILL THE JEWS"


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...







See you don't see that because you are not able to think outside of the Islamic mind set. You cant blame Israel, Britain, USA or any other nation for the cold blooded violent murders by hamas and fatah or the clashes between them, IT IS PART OF THEIR ISLAMIC CULTURE


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 21, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






After mishearing that polony cures aids, so he takes polonium instead.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 21, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > I commend Rocco for putting up with Tinmores immaturity
> ...





What does this post have to do with the topic


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 21, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > I commend Rocco for putting up with Tinmores immaturity
> ...





What does this post have to do with the topic


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



You just proved that you know nothing about this.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGKzP9EhJMY]Iran-Contra 2.0- how bush armed Fatah to fight Hamas - YouTube[/ame]

Fatah militants loyal to Muhammad Dahlan* (whom George W. Bush has called "our guy")* abuse Hamas detainees including Mazen Asad abu Dan, 28, on January 26, 2007. ("Abu Fadi" is Dahlan's nom de guerre.) Later, abu Dan says, he and other detainees were shot five times each in the knees and feet.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG4HHR9hf-g]Video from "The Gaza Bombshell" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore,   _et al,_

So, you framed the issue, even without a question.



P F Tinmore said:


> You just proved that you know nothing about this.


*(COMMENT)*

It was not then, and is not now, any big secret that the US did not support the terrorist organization HAMAS as the Palestinian government. 

But what is funny is that you are complaining that the Arab League supplied arms and munitions to Fatah in order to oppose the Hamas Regime.  

*(THE REST OF THE STORY)*

The Vanity Fare article/story was published in 2008.   It was the Fatah Government which was lobbying the US for arms and munitions, which then, the US passed-on to the Arab League.  Any Arms and Munitions going into the West Bank had to go through Arab League member borders.  Even Vanity Fare admits that the Plan (Called Plan B) "devised after Abbas made a deal in January 2007 to form a unity government with Fatah and Hamasmuch to Americas dismay." 

The real issue is about HAMAS and what support it can expect from the Arab League.  It is obvious that HAMAS was lost one of its several of its most significant supporters.

If you are going to talk about support for HAMAS, then make it plain for us laymen.  

And let's be honest, HAMAS doesn't enjoy an environment of unqualified support from the Arab League.  When the Arab League talks, it talks to Fatah and not HAMAS.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,   _et al,_
> 
> So, you framed the issue, even without a question.
> 
> ...



It is not about Hamas. It is about an illegal coup against an elected government fostered by the US.

It is about setting up an illegal dictatorship in the West Bank.

It is about lying to the world about this dictatorship being "the government."


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,   _et al,_
> ...



Welcome to the Middle east in general!!


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore,   _et al,_

The timeline, and humanity traveling that timeline, are not perfect.  There are instances when two, independently sound and valid concepts, come into conflict.   And it is then, some hard choices have to be made.


A Democracy _(some variation)_ is the more practical form of self-determination.
Among one of the most important Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States is the maintenance of international peace and security.
One of the most sincere pledges a nation and people can make is to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets.
One cannot support HAMAS, a fundamental Islamic Jihadist based political entity that uses hostile action, by whatever means necessary, to accomplish their political objectives and achieve their agenda.  Thus, if a people and a culture elect such a national government, knowing that there is no grievance, no goal, no cause that can excuse terrorist acts; they must also understand that their is no legitimate government that can uses hostile action, by whatever means necessary; like HAMAS. 



P F Tinmore said:


> It is about an illegal coup against an elected government fostered by the US.


*(COMMENT)*

All _coups d'état_ are against domestic law.



P F Tinmore said:


> It is about setting up an illegal dictatorship in the West Bank.


*(COMMENT)*

That is a decision made by the regional governments concerning a country that has not reached the stage where it can stand on its own.



P F Tinmore said:


> It is about lying to the world about this dictatorship being "the government."


*(COMMENT)*

The US did not lie.  I don't think there is a country in the world that ever believed the US supported HAMAS.  But what the US say or doesn't say on the issue is not really important.  What is important is what the Palestinian's said in their Declaration of Independence and what is recognized by the Arab League.  _(It's an Arab Issue, not an American Issue!)_



			
				Excerpt:  Palestinian Declaration of Independence said:
			
		

> The national will has established its political framework; and that is the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole, legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, as recognized by the international community and represented in the United Nations and its institutions and in other international and regional organizations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"The current Government was sworn in by the President of the State of Palestine, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, on 6 June 2013."  If the PLO-Executive Committee and the Palestinian National Council say that it is so, THEN it is so!  

Who are you to say different?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## José (Feb 21, 2014)

> Originally posted by *RoccoR*
> One cannot support HAMAS, a fundamental Islamic Jihadist based political entity that uses hostile action, by whatever means necessary, to accomplish their political objectives and achieve their agenda.



Why not??

Take a good look in the mirror... you have no problem supporting a murderous, morally depraved jewish supremacist state that has been killing palestinians in cold blood as they try to move about their homeland for the last 65 years.

You complaining about palestinian terrorism is like Larry Flynt complaining about pornography.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

José;8663302 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *RoccoR*
> > One cannot support HAMAS, a fundamental Islamic Jihadist based political entity that uses hostile action, by whatever means necessary, to accomplish their political objectives and achieve their agenda.
> 
> 
> ...



Hamas uses hostile actions?

Like defending their country?

WOW, their bad.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> "The current Government was sworn in by the President of the State of Palestine, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, on 6 June 2013." If the PLO-Executive Committee and the Palestinian National Council say that it is so, THEN it is so!
> 
> Who are you to say different?



I don't say different. Their constitution says different.



> *Article 5*
> 
> The governing system in Palestine shall be a democratic parliamentary system, based upon political and party pluralism. *The President of the National Authority shall be directly elected by the people.* The government shall be accountable to the President and to the Palestinian Legislative Council.
> 
> 2003 Amended Basic Law | The Palestinian Basic Law



You are mistaken. (lied to) The president is elected by the people not appointed by the PLO.


----------



## toastman (Feb 21, 2014)

José;8663302 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *RoccoR*
> > One cannot support HAMAS, a fundamental Islamic Jihadist based political entity that uses hostile action, by whatever means necessary, to accomplish their political objectives and achieve their agenda.
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe rocco doesnt have the same bullshit palestinian propaganda mentality that you and tinmore have.


----------



## toastman (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> José;8663302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol Tinmore reading this post, it just shows how incredibly brainwashed you are. You truly are an expert in Palestinian Propaganda


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > José;8663302 said:
> ...



5. Further recognizes the right of the Palestinian people to regain its rights by all means in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations;

6. Appeals to all States and international organizations to extend their support to the Palestinian people in its struggle to restore its rights, in accordance with the Charter;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237


----------



## toastman (Feb 21, 2014)

And this has what to do with Hamas?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

toastman said:


> And this has what to do with Hamas?



Hamas is the legal government of Palestine.

It is their right and their duty to secure the rights of their people.


----------



## toastman (Feb 21, 2014)

If thats their job, they're doing a terrible job at it. All they have is invite death and destruction into Gaza


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Does this mean that BDS is sanctioned by UN resolution?

Just curious.


----------



## toastman (Feb 21, 2014)

Are you asking yourself a question?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > And this has what to do with Hamas?
> ...


Since when is Hamas the legal government? They're not representing Palestine in the peace talks.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



you don't think they would have the real government in the fake peace talks, do you?


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You have a point. Tinmore. Right on top of your head.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore;  _et al,_

I personally don't care which one of the terrorist Palestinian organizations holds the Presidency.



P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > And this has what to do with Hamas?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

When was the last election in the State of Palestine?  The Gaza Leadership is about as bogus as a government can be.

But it really doesn't matter whether you are right or wrong.  What does matter is that there is an internal conflict; one that the Palestinians (in all this time) have been unable to resolve.  And that is _prima facie_ evidence that the people of State of Palestine cannot self-govern.

If the Gazian Government is the duly elected government, then they have demonstrated that they cannot properly govern their nation.  If the Gazian Government is not the duly elected government, then they are obstructing the proper government.  In either case, it is a government in chaos --- unable to stand on its own.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore;  _et al,_
> 
> I personally don't care which one of the terrorist Palestinian organizations holds the Presidency.
> 
> ...



Not as long as there are assholes with their boot on their necks.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> When was the last election in the State of Palestine?



Good point. They cannot hold legitimate elections run by an illegitimate government.

Abbas is in the way of new elections. He needs to step down.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> I personally don't care which one of the terrorist Palestinian organizations holds the Presidency.



You must be out of bullets. You are playing the terrorist card.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I'm just calling it as I see it.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(OBSERVATION)*

*HAMAS*

(Art   8)  Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
(Art 13)  There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. 
(Art 15)  Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem.

*PLO*

(Art   9)  Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.
(Art 10)  Commando (Feday'ee) action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war.
(Art 30)  Fighters and carriers of arms in the war of liberation are the nucleus of the popular army which will be the protective force for the gains of the Palestinian Arab people.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

Knock on any door and ask:  Do you support Jihadists and Fedayeen?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Feb 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whats wrong with stating facts? Hamas is an Islamist terrorist organization. Theres a reason they are listed as such by many countries. Get over it already


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I'm just calling it as I see it.
> 
> ...


Careful, Rocco or Tinmore will have Imam Sherri issue a fatwa against you. They're in cahoots.


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 21, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> What does this post have to do with the topic


It referenced the topic in the OP.

If you don't know what that is, you shouldn't be posting in this thread.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Arafat was appointed by the AL.  His election in '96 was against 73 yr old grandmother.
Abbas was appointed after Arafat's death till elections 2005


----------



## Roudy (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > And this has what to do with Hamas?
> ...


And by that token so does Israel.  So don't get upset when Israel drops the hammer on the Hamas animals.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I wonder who first pimped that *opinion?*

Hmmm?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I'm just calling it as I see it.
> 
> ...



That is Israel's question.

With the help of BDS and others, other questions are taking over.

Israel does not like this change of debate.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Arafat was appointed the president of Palestine and was officially elected in 1996 for the interim period.

In 2002 Arafat signed into law the Basic Law (constitution) and it was amended in 2003 to create the position of prime minister. The cabinet ministers, who were under the president, were now under the prime minister.

Upon Arafat's death, the constitution kicked in stating that the speaker of parliament shall temporarily assume the office of president and call for an election within 60 days. Arafat died November 11, 2004 and Abbas was elected president *for a four year term* on January 9, 2005.



> The speaker of the Palestinian parliament, Rawhi Fattuh, will be sworn in as Palestinian Authority president on an interim basis at noon (5 a.m. ET), according to Palestinian officials.
> 
> Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Sha'ath said Fattuh's first order of duty will be to "declare free and open public elections within 60 days."
> 
> CNN.com - Palestinian leader Arafat dies at 75 - Nov 11, 2004



Abbas's term in office expired January 9, 2009. The constitution should have kicked in again to elect a new president. Abbas refuses to step down and let constitutional procedures to follow their course. He is preventing elections from taking place.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore,   _et al,_

Whatever the situation may be, the fact of the matter is, that the people and the government of Palestine is not capable of establishing self-governing institutions that actually work.



P F Tinmore said:


> Abbas's term in office expired January 9, 2009. The constitution should have kicked in again to elect a new president. Abbas refuses to step down and let constitutional procedures to follow their course. He is preventing elections from taking place.


*(COMMENT)*

This is the "demonstrated" inability of the Palestinian People to manage their own house.  No matter what the ground truth may be, the fault lies in their inability to sustain a functional government under their own constitution.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > What does this post have to do with the topic
> ...





And what does this post have to do with the OP ?


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

The BDS is merely a protest.



P F Tinmore said:


> That is Israel's question.
> 
> With the help of BDS and others, other questions are taking over.
> 
> Israel does not like this change of debate.


*(QUESTIONS)*

What is the new question?  How has the debate changes?

*(COMMENT)*

The cornerstone issue has been and continues to be, WHEN will the Hostile Arab Palestinian decide to "live at peace with their neighbours" (a A/RES/194 requirement)?  The fact that HAMAS is a terrorist supporting government is only evidence that the government itself is both criminal in nature and relies on threats of violence and violence in the furtherance of it agenda.  The fact that the Palestinian cannot determine among themselves, the complexion of the rightful government, is evidence of competency.  But the question is now and remains:  WHEN will the Hostile Arab Palestinian decide to "live at peace with their neighbours?"  That can only be answered (in the positive) when the HoAP sits down and, in good faith, negotiates a peace.  It can be answered (in the negative) each time they commit violence.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 I wonder who has been LYING all along about Palestine being appointed observer status at the UN as a nation within international borders. Then produces a link that states :-

 1. Invites the *Palestine Liberation Organization *to participate in the sessions and the work of the General Assembly in the capacity of observer;

2. Invites the *Palestine Liberation Organization *to participate in the sessions and the work of all international conferences convened under the auspices of the General Assembly in the capacity of observer;

3. Considers that the *Palestine Liberation Organization *is entitled to participate as an observer in the sessions and the work of all international conferences convened under the auspices of other organs of the United Nations;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to take the necessary steps for the implementation of the present resolution.


 So it seems that the UN has hung hamas out to dry as well and took their right of self determibation away from them..............


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...






What change of debate would that be then, the fact that the UN has frozen hamas out of representing the Palestinians at the UN ?


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Then who would negotiate with Israel on peace as hamas is a terrorist organisation and as such any members risk arrest and trial if they set foot outside of gaza.   Would leave your Palestinians in a right mess wouldn't it, and this is what comes of electing a proscribed terrorist organisation to power


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,   _et al,_
> 
> Whatever the situation may be, the fact of the matter is, that the people and the government of Palestine is not capable of establishing self-governing institutions that actually work.
> 
> ...






 Which means that they are unable to act towards self determination and are in breach of the UN resolutions and charter.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 22, 2014)

Billo_Really, Phoenall, _et al,_

What effects policies, views, or actions that harm or discriminate against Jews (anti-Semitism) is an attempt to influence a person's beliefs, attitudes, intentions, motivations, or behaviors relative to Jews (not Israelis).



Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

It is exceptionally hard to institute any policy or action in sphere of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict that is not construed to be having some sort of impact.  Each cause has an effect (positive or negative).  And each cause must be evaluated individually.

Since most Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) actions are drive by the need to further Jihad, which in their mind, is the only solution, the policies of Israel have little or no impact on them.  But in the outside world, the influence has a potential to create support for the protection of the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Feb 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> What effects policies, views, or actions that harm or discriminate against Jews (anti-Semitism) is an attempt to influence a person's beliefs, attitudes, intentions, motivations, or behaviors relative to Jews (not Israelis).


My issues have nothing to do with Judaism.  

I could care less how people worship, or what name they call God.

My issues, are with Israeli's.  The Israeli right, to be more specific.

I fully support the Israeli left.

The Israeli right, can GFT's.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,   _et al,_
> 
> Whatever the situation may be, the fact of the matter is, that the people and the government of Palestine is not capable of establishing self-governing institutions that actually work.
> 
> ...



Not when assholes with guns and money install a dictatorship.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> The BDS is merely a protest.
> 
> ...





> The fact that HAMAS is a terrorist supporting government is only evidence...



They are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected.

They are only terrorists to the liars in the "west."


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Negotiate?

The Palestinians have given up on that farce.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 22, 2014)

Billo_Really,  _et al,_

What is your position?



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > What effects policies, views, or actions that harm or discriminate against Jews (anti-Semitism) is an attempt to influence a person's beliefs, attitudes, intentions, motivations, or behaviors relative to Jews (not Israelis).
> ...


*(QUESTIONs)*

What is it to be at issue with "The Israeli right?"
What is "The Israeli right?"

Are we talking about "specifics" of the politics that dominate political parties?  Support for conservative causes? Or are we specific in addressing "construction freeze in West Bank settlements?"  What specifically?

*(COMMENT)*

The label itself doesn't mean anything to me.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  _et al,_
> 
> What is your position?
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter. The right and left both steal Palestinian land.

Wasn't it the lefties who gave us Cast Lead.

Scum on both sides.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,   _et al,_
> ...






Do you mean like when the arab league did this ?


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...






Ask all the fatah supporters who faced hamas terrorism as soon as they took over. Children shot multiple times, children thrown of high buildings, men dragged through the streets of gaza behind speeding cars. Families beaten and females gang raped by hamas members. Very much terrorism in their eyes wouldn't you say


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## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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Have they ever tried to negotiate in the last 65 years, or have they just demanded and made war ?


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## toastman (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
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Hamas is the government in Gaza, not 'Palestine'


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 22, 2014)

toastman said:


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Hamas was elected in all of Palestine not just in Gaza.


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## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 So9 they won every seat, or did they only win some of them ?


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## RoccoR (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

This is an interesting string.



P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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*(COMMENT)*

*Terrorism*:

Yes, historically, HAMAS is a Jihadist supporting political party; an entity which has a criminal history of past behavior in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating hostile activities intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.  By any other name --- "terrorists."

There is no grievance, no goal, no cause, and no claim that HAMAS can make --- to justify this action.  There is no special authority HAMAS can site to justify their past criminal behaviors or to support their perceived right in their "liberation of their homeland" by armed struggle; by any means.​
*Ruling Party*:

As far as the elections go, I thought the last elections (2005) were not in Hamas favor, and that after the Palestinian Civil War that started in 2006, HAMAS formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip without elections; which is the government that is still in power today in Gaza. _(I could be wrong, it makes no difference.)_  No matter how you view the outcome, the 2005 election effort (nine years past) has been overtaken by events.​
Most Respectfully, 
R


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## Phoenall (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Here is the result so hardly ALL OF PALESTINE


 Palestinian voters had two votes, one for their favorite political party (the proportional vote) and another for individual candidates in winner-take-all districts where the highest vote-getters win. In the proportional vote, which is a national vote and therefore the best measure of the overall support for each political party, Hamas won about 45 percent of the popular vote and about the same percentage of seats  30 of 66, not a majority. The incumbent party, Fatah, won about 41 percent of the popular vote and 27 of 66 seats, only three seats behind Hamas.


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## aris2chat (Feb 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Voting was for local redistricting seat for representatives.  Think congress.
Congressmen are not elected by the whole US population, only by the district within the state.
Populous vote, between the parties, Fatah won the most votes (3 to 1 margin?).  Each district had several Fatah candidates running and where Hamas ran, there was usually only one Hamas candidate.  Pie got cut too thin between all those running, leaving the one hamas candidate with the largest piece.  Hamas did not run in all districts, only those where they had a power base.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 23, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Perhaps if the election laws were different, or if Fatah was more coordinated and focused on winning as a party, thing would have been different.

The bottom line is that everyone followed the rules and Hamas won a majority of seats in the legislature.

The elections were judged free and fair by all international observers. I had heard it said that they were the most free and fair that they had seen anywhere.

I would argue that he unity government of March 2007 was the model government in the ME.


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## Phoenall (Feb 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Even in view of the fact that hamas did not poll the most votes and won seat by default

 Palestinian voters had two votes, one for their favorite political party (the proportional vote) and another for individual candidates in winner-take-all districts where the highest vote-getters win. In the proportional vote, which is a national vote and therefore the best measure of the overall support for each political party, Hamas won about 45 percent of the popular vote and about the same percentage of seats  30 of 66, not a majority. The incumbent party, Fatah, won about 41 percent of the popular vote and 27 of 66 seats, only three seats behind Hamas. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 So no majority as they were 4 seats short and could not form a government, leaving 9 seats or votes selling to the highest bidder. guess hamas won those 9 seats giving them control of the PA


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 23, 2014)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> "The current Government was sworn in by the President of the State of Palestine, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, on 6 June 2013." If the PLO-Executive Committee and the Palestinian National Council say that it is so, THEN it is so!
> 
> Who are you to say different?



Even if Abbas was still the president, (being in his 8th year of a four year term) he did not follow constitutional requirements.



> *Formation of the Government
> Article 65*
> 
> Once appointed by the President of the Palestinian National Authority, the Prime Minister shall form a government within three weeks of the date of appointment. There shall be a right to an extension of a maximum of two weeks.
> ...



Abbas illegally swore in the government without the required vote of confidence of the Legislative Council.


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## Phoenall (Feb 23, 2014)

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 And it had nothing to do with Israel did it, it was an internal matter that only the Palestinians could deal with. The evidence points to hamas refusing to call another election and under the terms of the UN charter someone has to be accountable so it falls to Abbas. Or they lose their chance of self determination and statehood................


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## RoccoR (Feb 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I think you missed my point.



P F Tinmore said:


> Even if Abbas was still the president, (being in his 8th year of a four year term) he did not follow constitutional requirements.
> 
> Abbas illegally swore in the government without the required vote of confidence of the Legislative Council.


*(COMMENT)*

This is an internal dispute between Palestinians, and not the world.  If the world recognizes Mahmoud Abbas, incorrectly, as having the capacity to enter into relations with the other states; then, that is a matter of image that the Palestinians need to correct. 

If what you say is true, then it is up to the Palestinian People to alter the impression, and establish recognition to the representative they have chosen.  HAMAS has no recognition.  That is not the fault of the US, the UN, or the world; but, the fault of the Palestinian People, if in fact they want HAMAS _(with all the baggage they bring)_ to be their international representative.  It is an indication that the Palestinian People do not have control over their government and have not instituted self-governing institutions.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 23, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Actually, it is always about Israel. It is not an internal matter.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ai-Udti1M]On The Map with Avi Lewis: Gaza Coup d'Etat? - YouTube[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 23, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> *I think you missed my point.*
> 
> ...



I didn't miss your point. Your point is to slime the Palestinians at every opportunity.

I get your point.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Feb 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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It doesn't need Rocco to slime the Palestinians.  They do that very well for themselves.


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## Phoenall (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Are you now saying that Israel manipulated the elections and made hamas the minority winners. Then forced Abbas to go against the P.A. constitution and elect his own people into power, making the P.A. a dictatorship with him at the helm. If Israel was not there you would blame the USA, Britain, EU, Chine, Russia and the man in the moon rather than blame the incompetent semi literate muslims


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## Roudy (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Bottom line is a terrorist organization is now leading Gaza.  Hy are anything but model, more like typical and worse, corrupt, violent, oppressive, barbaric and theocratic. And now they refuse to hold elections. Soin other words the Palestinians went from having one terrorist thief named Arafat ruling them to an even worse and more religious and violent terrorist thief ruling them.


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## Roudy (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Palestinians don't need anybody help slime them. They do a good enough job sliming themselves.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Well, no, I never said that.

Palestine (not just Gaza) held legislative elections in January '06. Hamas won the majority of seats. This gave Hamas the authority to approve or disapprove the formation of the government. (the PM and his cabinet) A Hamas led government was formed in complete compliance with the constitution.

Israel and its lackeys closed the place down. All the aid to Palestine bypassed the government and went to Abbas. Fatah security forces were armed, paid, and trained to overthrow the government.

In February '07 the Mecca Agreement proposed a unity government and in March '07 this government was legally constituted.
Palestinian March 2007 National Unity Government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was not good enough for Israel and its lackeys. More money and weapons went to Fatah which came to a head in June '07. Hamas kicked Fatah forces out of Gaza but with the help of Israel's military an illegal government was set up in the West Bank.

The liars call this the Palestinian Authority.

This link is pretty good in explaining what happened.

*The Coup against Hamas
The international campaign to overthrow a democratically elected government*

Israel - Palestine : Propaganda & Reality : The Coup against Hamas


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## Phoenall (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Hamas did not win the majority of seats they managed a minority. Fatah came in a close second leaving 9 seats for other parties. As in all other democratic elections a coalition can be formed to have a majority of seats which is what happened in the P.A. The coalition took power with fatah at the helm.

 Here are the results that show neither hamas nor fatah had an overall majority


*Palestinian voters had two votes, one for their favorite political party (the proportional vote) and another for individual candidates in winner-take-all districts where the highest vote-getters win. In the proportional vote, which is a national vote and therefore the best measure of the overall support for each political party, Hamas won about 45 percent of the popular vote and about the same percentage of seats  30 of 66, not a majority. The incumbent party, Fatah, won about 41 percent of the popular vote and 27 of 66 seats, only three seats behind Hamas. *


 66 seats of which hamas won 30 and fatah won 27 leaving 9 to decide who they would side with, and fatah won the right to govern because hamas could not pay the outsiders anything. That is how democracy works and you muslims don't like it do you.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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That is neither here nor there. The legislature approved the Hamas government of 2006 and approved the unity government of 2007.

None of Abbass's illegal "emergency" governments have ever been approved in the legislature as required by their constitution.


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## aris2chat (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Hamas violently forced Fatah out of gaza.  Nothing democratic about it.  Hamas changed the laws in gaza.  Hamas wage war against Israel.  They don't represent palestine or the palestinians people, but their own interests.

Hamas will not allow election, will not form a unity government with the PA, will not lay down their arms, will not accept Israel as a state, will not accept any peace deal.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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Good compilation of Israel's propaganda talking points.


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## Sally (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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What a great post from a Hamas guy, Mr. Tinmore!!!  I think most of us can go with Aris' information than from someone who backs Hamas and who never wants to hear anything negative about Hamas.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

Sally said:


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It is not that I am backing Hamas it is that I am backing legal process.


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## toastman (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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I dont see how anyone can back Hamas. They've done nothing for their people except invite death and destruction to Gaza


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 24, 2014)

toastman said:


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Even the way they dress.  Why do they have to wear masks, like bandits?  Do you see the Ukrainian revolutionaries wearing masks?


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## Coyote (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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That is an important distinction that most don't seem to want to see...it's similar with the military coup in Egypt.

It's  not a matter of supporting one side or the other -- it's do you support the rule of law, regardless of the outcome of a democratic election?  If you don't, at what point do you decide it's ok not to and how do you arrive at that decision?  Simply because you (typically an outside power) doesn't like the result of the election?


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

Coyote said:


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The system will not allow me to give you a positive rep so, 

The only "rule of law" for the Palestinians is the constant, illegal foreign interference. They have *never* been allowed to make their own decisions.


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## Victory67 (Feb 24, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toastman said:
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Yes we do.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4614539891510542&pid=15.1

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5001589440513118&pid=15.1

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5019001236292555&pid=15.1

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4881278810195418&pid=15.1

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4869261521520717&pid=15.1

wearing the Arab kafiye

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4861564934424181&pid=15.1

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4611881323006479&pid=15.1


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## toastman (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Call it what you want but theres nothing the Palestinians can do about it. Thats just the way it is


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 24, 2014)

toastman said:


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Abbas can make a decision to sign a peace accord with Israel tomorrow.


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## Indeependent (Feb 24, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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Abbas wants to be assassinated tomorrow?


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## Phoenall (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 And they are all true, and you cant deny it either


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## Phoenall (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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While denying the truth and reality of the terrorist organisation hamas


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## Phoenall (Feb 24, 2014)

Coyote said:


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So lets all back legal process and demand that hamas call an election to decide the issue, after all one is well overdue. Then demand that hamas stop all forms of belligerence as agreed through due legal process. Or would these be a step too far for most people to stomach ?


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## Indeependent (Feb 24, 2014)

We can go back to the First Temple and demand Babylon pull back their troops.
Heck, tell those Cherubim to let Adam and Eve back in the Garden.


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## Phoenall (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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So who is this "illegal foreign interference" that is stopping the Palestinians from making their own decisions. They have been allowed to decide who should represent them, they have been allowed to enter the UN as observers, they have been allowed to form an interim governing body, they have been allowed to raise taxes, they have been allowed to hold elections. So what have they been stopped from actually doing by this so called  " illegal foreign interference " .


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## Roudy (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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You, backing Hamas?  Gee, what would make us think that?!  Other than you sound like the Hamas Ambassador to the US...


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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The president is to call elections.

Abbas's term in office expired January 9, 2009.


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## aris2chat (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Abbas has tried to call elections but Hamas would not permit them.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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Abbas is not the president.


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## aris2chat (Feb 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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PLO extended his term till indefinitely to avoid a vacuum.  Abbas agreed to stay on.
Egypt tried to get fatah and hamas agree to reconciliation.  Fatah has signed but hamas refuses.
The term for hamas in parliament has also expired.  Despite this they want the speaker to step in as acting president.  
Abbas is trying to keep the PA government from collapse.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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> Egypt tried to get fatah and hamas agree to reconciliation.  Fatah has signed but hamas refuses.



Fatah and Hamas agreed to many different issues in their mediations. When Egypt made the final draft for signing they changed some of these previously agreed points. Hamas would not sign the draft because it was not what they previously agreed.



> On Oct. 25, Egypt had presented to the Palestinian factions, including Hamas and President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party, a reconciliation pact, in a bid to end the feuds between the two groups and hold general elections in June 2010.
> 
> Fatah party accepted the reconciliation pact, and expressed readiness to sign it in Cairo. However, Hamas movement refused and said some articles in the pact need amendment.
> 
> ...



The propagandists always say that Hamas refused to sign but always leave out the reason why.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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> PLO extended his term till indefinitely to avoid a vacuum.  Abbas agreed to stay on.



The president is an elected position for four years. This is laid down in their constitution. The PLO has no authority there.



> *Article 36*
> 
> The term of the presidency of the National Authority shall be four years. The President shall have the right to nominate himself for a second term of presidency, provided that he shall not occupy the position of the presidency more than two consecutive terms.
> 
> http://www.palestinianbasiclaw.org/basic-law/2005-amendments


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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> The term for hamas in parliament has also expired.  Despite this they want the speaker to step in as acting president.



*Article 47 bis*

The term of the current Legislative Council shall terminate when the members of the new elected Council take the constitutional oath.

2005 Amendment to the Basic Law | The Palestinian Basic Law


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Feb 25, 2014)

It is documented as early as the 1920s in Palestine

Judis says Museum of Jewish Heritage has reinvited him to June 1 appearance!

"Judiss book,*Genesis,*documents President Harry Trumans opposition to establishing a country that did not separate church and state, and his abandoning his convictions under pressure from the Zionist lobby inside the U.S."

"I have just gotten to the part in the book where both the British and the Zionists in Palestine in the 1920s sought to defuse angry Palestinian opposition to Jewish nationalism by promoting Palestinian Muslim groups. The Brits and the Zionists felt that they could shatter Arab nationalism by dividing Muslims and Christians; they preferred a religious conflict. I did not know this before. I hope that at the June 1 event in New York, someone asks Judis about the extent to which the clash of civilizations and the war on terror and the fight with radical Islam today have some roots in colonial and Zionist choices. Not to deny Muslims agency in the conflict, but wasnt this an important factor?"

Judis says Museum of Jewish Heritage has reinvited him to June 1 appearance! | Mondoweiss

The illegal foreign interferences birthed terrorism of today.





Phoenall said:


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## Phoenall (Feb 25, 2014)

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 So the P.A. is dead in the water and cant hold anymore elections, which means that hamas as the P.A. is a paper tiger and incapable of government. This means that the Palestinians have once more shown they are incapable of even the simplest of free determination's


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## Phoenall (Feb 25, 2014)

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Is that the best you can come up with when faced with the reality that is hamas refusing to act in accordance with their legal obligations. Wasn't it you that demanded the legal process be enforced, and here you are now saying that it shouldn't be enforced because it does not suit your terrorist POV.


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## Phoenall (Feb 25, 2014)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> It is documented as early as the 1920s in Palestine
> 
> Judis says Museum of Jewish Heritage has reinvited him to June 1 appearance!
> 
> ...







Two points you fail to say who this "illegal foreign interference" was  and wads it around in 632 C.E. when Mohamed used terrorism against the Jews in medina ?


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## RoccoR (Feb 25, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Again, it doesn't matter what externals believe should be, or should have been.  It is a domestic decision to be made by the Palestinians.

There are two important set of conditions that should be considered.



P F Tinmore said:


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*(COMMENT)*

What is important is the perception the outside world has as to which component, on the Palestinian Political Scene, has the capacity to establish and maintain diplomatic relations; and --- which component is projected forward by the Palestinian People as having the authority.

*FIRST CONSIDERATION*

It is understood that the pro-HAMAS component disagrees with the actual perception the world has.  But the perception is everything.

The Arab League says that the PLO is the sole represpentative of the Palestinian People.
The Declaration of Independence says that the PLO is the sole representative of the Palestinians People.

As can be readily seen, there is an Application for Admission to the UN from the recognized sole representative of the Palestinian People signed by the President of the State of Palestine; and Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization.



			
				Excerpt (Paragraph 1) Application of the State of Palestine for admission to membership in the United Nations said:
			
		

> I have the profound honour, on behalf of the Palestinian people, to submit this application of the State of Palestine for admission to membership in the United Nations.   This application for membership is being submitted based on the Palestinian peoples natural, legal and historic rights and based on United Nations General Assembly resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947 as well as the Declaration of Independence of the State of Palestine of 15 November 1988 and the acknowledgement by the General Assembly of this Declaration in resolution 43/177 of 15 December 1988.
> 
> (Signed) Mahmoud Abbas
> President of the State of Palestine
> ...



*SECOND CONSIDERATION*

Since 2002, the Arab League has considered hostilities closed in the "Arab-Israeli conflict;" as distinguished from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  



			
				EXCERPT:  Summit-level Council of the League of Arab States Fourteenth regular session Beirut said:
			
		

> 3.	Undertakes that the Arab States shall then:
> 
> (a)	Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict at an end and enter into a peace agreement between them and Israel while achieving security for all the States of the region;
> 
> ...



The Arab League still has the State of Palestine as a member and still considers the PLO/PA as the principle voice with which to interact with in the course of business.



			
				Palestinian Authority seeking an urgent Arab League Summit said:
			
		

> The Palestinian authority is urgently seeking an Arab League summit in Cairo, with the agenda of the summit being a discussion on the growing hostilities between the two Middle East countries and devising methods to bring truce among them.
> 
> *After the initial failure of the UN Security Council to bring about peace, the League led by the Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, has a lot to accomplish and prove.* Another important dimension of discussions in this meeting, as stated by the Palestinian Foreign Minister, Riad Malki, was the indefinite financial support from the Arab States. At present, the League maintains an approach of complete discontent towards the UN Security Council.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ Arab League Online - 8 DEC 2012



Once again, I say, it doesn't matter what you use as your argument.  For more than 20 years, the PLO has been the recognized voice of the people called Palestinians.  And it is through this organization that all the major diplomatic and political conduits stretch.  HAMAS has contributed virtually nothing to the local, regional, and greater international community towards peace --- nothing to "establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace!"  _(Both a UN goal and an Arab League objective.)_

Thus, you can hardly blame the world for the false impression as to which element has a recognition of the people of Palestine.  The election and constitutional checker playing means very little when stacked up against the actual efforts made by the greater PLO alliance.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 25, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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*Not true.*

The speaker of the legislature is to temporarily assume the office of president and call for elections within 60 days.



> If the office of the President of the National Authority becomes vacant due to any of the above cases, the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council shall temporarily assume the powers and duties of the Presidency of the National Authority for a period not to exceed sixty (60) days, during which free and direct elections to elect a new President shall take place in accordance with the Palestinian Election Law.
> 
> http://www.palestinianbasiclaw.org/basic-law/2003-amended-basic-law


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## Phoenall (Feb 25, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 And if the speaker is not available what happens then ?

 Then what happens when the 60 days are up, does the P.A. dissolve and sets the Palestinians back 65 years ?


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## Phoenall (Feb 25, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 This from the current law tells a different story

2005 Amendment to the Basic Law | The Palestinian Basic Law


 Article 36

The term of the presidency of the National Authority shall be four years. The President shall have the right to nominate himself for a second term of presidency, provided that he shall not occupy the position of the presidency more than two consecutive terms.


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## Hossfly (Feb 25, 2014)

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Then he went from President to dictator?


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 26, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



He did.

In a military coup in June of 2007.


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## Roudy (Feb 26, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Don't they all?


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