# World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?



## Foxfyre

A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.

Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.

Result:  World War I and World War II.

Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.

Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.

And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.

Are we moving to the brink of World War III?


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## bucs90

Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already. 

And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.


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## Foxfyre

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.



Hmmm.  Interesting bucs.  Plasmaball seems to be a denier.

And you're approaching it from the Biblical end of the world or some such angle.

The thing is, either of you could be right.  

I'm just curious to see if there are many like me with their antenna up though.  I think those closest to experience with the world war scenarios and educated with history from that era might have a different perspective than some of the younger ones.


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## draper

Maybe it seems like the world is falling apart.  But when was the last time the world wasn't falling apart?

Now for a round of We Didn't Start The Fire..............


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## SFC Ollie

We obviously should start thinking about pulling troops back to defensible borders....

Ya just never know.....


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## whitehall

WW3? What you are asking is whether the US will face a revolution. The left tried it back in the 60's.


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## snjmom

One can only hope so. It's such a boost for the economy.


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## Foxfyre

draper said:


> Maybe it seems like the world is falling apart.  But when was the last time the world wasn't falling apart?
> 
> Now for a round of We Didn't Start The Fire..............



This is a bit different though.  During the mid 20th century up through the early 90's, it was mostly the rest of the world against the Soviet Bloc.  But now we have al Qaida and similar groups destablizing numerous Muslim nations, a Europe struggling to retain its economy and character, and a number of rogue totalitarian governments or dictatorships, some with or working to achieve nuclear capability, that seem just itching to expand their horizons.  And a USA on the brink of bankruptcy with a lot of its debt held by countries that could go either way in a general multi nation conflcit.

Like Ollie said, I think we should be paying attention.


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## Zoom-boing

Don't know about WWIII but it's lookin' like the end is near.




> Will there be a chocolate drought? Worlds supply of sustainable cocoa could run out by 2014



Read more: Will there be a chocolate drought? World¿s supply of sustainable cocoa could run out by 2014 | Mail Online


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## BlindBoo

I think a review of History will show that in your second paragraph you discribe some events leading up to WWII.

Ford stock sure took a dump today but I doubt it was over the unrest in Egypt.

I don't doubt there will be wars in the coming century but I don't buy in the the whole  propohetic/Amageddon thing.

Think I'd go with Plasma on this.  Moving on......


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## GHook93

Foxfyre said:


> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result:  World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?



World War III will come and its will be much different than the 3 previous ones. Its will be Islam vs Christianity! I see it starting Europe, including Russia. There is a ginormous culture clash between the Native European and Muslims. Its the worst in Russia. 
(1) Russia:
25% and growing by leaps and bounds are Muslim in Russia. Ethnic violence is increasing 10 fold, esp with every Chechan terrorist attack. When Muslim population gets to 40% would could be as early as 2025. Serbian/Kosovo style genocidal war will be underway. The West, including America will sit by and allows this condemning it from the sidelines, because they don't want to risk a nuclear war with Russia. Muslims around the world will be outraged. Russia who is has more than enough oil reserves can't be effected by an oil embargo. In fact, Europe is reliant on them for oil and natural gas. 

(2) China:
For a while China has wanted to get rid of their pain in the butt Muslim separatist. Seeing how the West including the US did nothing to Russia. Then start their own ethnic cleansing campaign.

(3) Europe:
The Muslim world gets more radical. They start to blame all Europeans for the slaughter of Muslims in Russia and China. They demand more thinks like Sharia law. Ethnic violence becomes rambid..

(4) Muslims Nuclear Sneak Attack:
Islamofacist develop nukes with the assistance of Pakistan, Nuclear Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Jordan, Libya, Tunsia, Saudi Arabia and Egypt (all these countries developed the bomb after Iran was allowed to develop one in 2012). Nuclear suicide bombs smack the West, China and Russia hard!

(5) Then the War is on


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## bucs90

Foxfyre said:


> bucs90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.  Interesting bucs.  Plasmaball seems to be a denier.
> 
> And you're approaching it from the Biblical end of the world or some such angle.
> 
> The thing is, either of you could be right.
> 
> I'm just curious to see if there are many like me with their antenna up though.  I think those closest to experience with the world war scenarios and educated with history from that era might have a different perspective than some of the younger ones.
Click to expand...


I'm wondering, though, if such unrest has always occurred............but now we are just a world that is more populated (thus it happens more often) and with internet we actually see it all, whereas some uprisings may have been beaten down and simply covered up by kings, tyrants, gov'ts of the past, and now we simply see them all?

I heard one interesting argument regarding the Bible in that it said the internet itself is "The Beast" of the Bible, as in the antichrist. The internet enables global unrest to spread more quickly, and fuels it, thus making the internet the tool that is capable of sparking world chaos, making "The Beast" come to fulfillment in the form of the internet. It was an interesting angle which I found intriguing.


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## Dr.Drock

whitehall said:


> WW3? What you are asking is whether the US will face a revolution. The left tried it back in the 60's.



The left tried to revolt in the '60's?

Where do people come up with this stuff?

You mean the 1760's leading up to the actual one?


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## Foxfyre

BlindBoo said:


> I think a review of History will show that in your second paragraph you discribe some events leading up to WWII.
> 
> Ford stock sure took a dump today but I doubt it was over the unrest in Egypt.
> 
> I don't doubt there will be wars in the coming century but I don't buy in the the whole  propohetic/Amageddon thing.
> 
> Think I'd go with Plasma on this.  Moving on......



Sometimes when the market is bumping up against a psychological threshhold--in this case 12,000--it doesn't take much to trigger a sell off.

But the general wisdom of the day is this:



> Stocks slumped as the protests in Egypt raised concerns the government was losing control, which would lead to instability in the region. The news was roiling markets worldwide.
> 
> The uncertainty surrounding the events also gave investors a reason to sell after five months of solid gains, and as the Dow and S&P bumped up against key thresholds, analysts said.
> 
> That and weak earnings news out of Amazon.com, Ford and Microsoft, provided another catalyst for investors to sell, said Ryan Detrick, senior technical analyst at Schaeffer's Investment Research.
> 
> The sellingwhich came from big institutionswas taking place amid significant volume, indicating more conviction in the moves, Detrick said.
> 
> "Egypt is definitely at the forefront today," agreed Paul Brigandi, senior vice president of portfolio management at Direxion Funds/Direxion Shares. "Overall, political unrest is never good for the market, especially when it has to do with the Middle East."
> 
> But the events in Egypt hit at a time when the market was bumping up against psychologically important benchmarks, and was beginning to "look fatigued" after rallying for some eight or nine weeks, said Brigandi, noting that the S&P 500 had been up 3 percent so far this year on top of a nearly 13 percent gain in 2010.
> News Headlines



So yeah, Egypt isn't the whole story, but is obviously a component.  Still, there are other threads dealing with the mess in Egypt.

I am neither a fatalist nor an alarmist I think.  But as a student of history, I am watching the big picture with a great deal of interest these days.  I think attention should be paid.


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## G.T.

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.



This is hogwash, dude.


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## G.T.

I think the World is definitely deteriorating.


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## G.T.

bucs90 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bucs90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.  Interesting bucs.  Plasmaball seems to be a denier.
> 
> And you're approaching it from the Biblical end of the world or some such angle.
> 
> The thing is, either of you could be right.
> 
> I'm just curious to see if there are many like me with their antenna up though.  I think those closest to experience with the world war scenarios and educated with history from that era might have a different perspective than some of the younger ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm wondering, though, if such unrest has always occurred............but now we are just a world that is more populated (thus it happens more often) and with internet we actually see it all, whereas some uprisings may have been beaten down and simply covered up by kings, tyrants, gov'ts of the past, and now we simply see them all?
> 
> I heard one interesting argument regarding the Bible in that it said the internet itself is "The Beast" of the Bible, as in the antichrist. The internet enables global unrest to spread more quickly, and fuels it, thus making the internet the tool that is capable of sparking world chaos, making "The Beast" come to fulfillment in the form of the internet. It was an interesting angle which I found intriguing.
Click to expand...


Obviously they used the vague term "the beast" instead of..............you know..."the internet".........because they weren't as "prophetic" as you think but only wanting to use vagueries to make dupes think so. 

What the hell is the purpose of "predicting" something in vagueries?

If you're a prophet attempting to prophesize, two things are true:
#1. you can see the future.
#2. you want people to know.


There's no logical reason to speak it in code and leave it up for interpretation in this scenario and so any rational (read: not gullible) human being would defer to the obvious: it's not true prophecy.


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## Avatar4321

There will be major wars this decade. Whether any will qualify as a world war, I don't know.

The world is in turmoil. This is the time where men and women of virtue and character need to stand up and lead people to safety.


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## Foxfyre

bucs90 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bucs90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.  Interesting bucs.  Plasmaball seems to be a denier.
> 
> And you're approaching it from the Biblical end of the world or some such angle.
> 
> The thing is, either of you could be right.
> 
> I'm just curious to see if there are many like me with their antenna up though.  I think those closest to experience with the world war scenarios and educated with history from that era might have a different perspective than some of the younger ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm wondering, though, if such unrest has always occurred............but now we are just a world that is more populated (thus it happens more often) and with internet we actually see it all, whereas some uprisings may have been beaten down and simply covered up by kings, tyrants, gov'ts of the past, and now we simply see them all?
> 
> I heard one interesting argument regarding the Bible in that it said the internet itself is "The Beast" of the Bible, as in the antichrist. The internet enables global unrest to spread more quickly, and fuels it, thus making the internet the tool that is capable of sparking world chaos, making "The Beast" come to fulfillment in the form of the internet. It was an interesting angle which I found intriguing.
Click to expand...


Well I'm not quite ready to give away all I own and go sit on the mountaintop waiting for the Rapture as some have done in the past.  

But yeah, I know many people of faith, and not only Christians, are watching the trends unfold as you describe.  And the member who called your observation 'hogwash' is speaking from his own faith as he has absolutely no evidence to dispute your point of view even presented as one possibility.

I am sure the fact that there are many more people and also the fact that communications are instant now instead of traveling slowly by ship or pony express and most importantly that we now have weapons that could render traditional armies irrelevent, all this points to a much different world than existed in previous world wars.  World wars historically are actually a new invention even.

But it remains that those nations in which the people became mostly disastisfied or angry with their leaders have generally overthrown those leaders or helped others to do so.  And if you have that as the case in much of the world, it does make you wonder who and what will emerge as the victor and in charge of things.


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## G.T.

Avatar4321 said:


> There will be major wars this decade. Whether any will qualify as a world war, I don't know.
> 
> The world is in turmoil. This is the time where men and women of virtue and character need to stand up and lead people to safety.



The real concern, in my opinion, is that once again the Wealthiest in the World have achieved a very unbalanced level of wealth in comparison to: "everyone else." As poverty increases and the affluent seem to prosper more and more, that's when real-life revolt happens because people are desperate. People don't like to die for a cause unless they're noble, or desperate. Most people aren't noble. As the desperation of the poor around the world rises, THIS is what will cause chaos. And this doesn't mean that I want to rob the rich and give to the poor, but there's certainly something to be said for how much of the well they're sucking up IN COMPARISON to all other Human Beings. Something will always "give" in these types of scenarios.


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## Mr. Shaman

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.


....And, *ECHOED* by crazy-people...​


> "A teen-age girl was upset because her boyfriend had jilted her. Her mother reassured her by saying: *"There, there, it's not the end of the world."*
> 
> *HERE*​


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## Charles_Main

Foxfyre said:


> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result:  World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?



Not sure it's that bad yet. But I will say I feel something like WWIII is more likely today than it was 10 Years ago. 

The continuing erosion of our Nuclear Deterrent, Lack of Politcal Will, and the Perception of Weakness on our part make that inevitable


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## Mr. Shaman

Foxfyre said:


> bucs90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just curious to see if there are many like me with their antenna up though.  I think those closest to experience with the world war scenarios and educated with history from that era might have a different perspective than some of the younger ones.
Click to expand...

"*THAT*" era*????*



*WHICH* era......the *Cold War Era*....or the *ReRon Era* (early *'80s*, when *Republicans* were scarin' the fuckin' shit outta *my son* and *his friends*....all in their early-teens)*??!!!!*​


> *The ReRon Era*
> 
> ** * * **
> 
> ....And, *HOW WE LEARNED TO LOVE WWIII* - *The Sequel*
> 
> ** * * **
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Reagan links Bible Prophecy with Nuclear War*http://www.prop1.org/inaugur/85reagan/85rrarm.htm
> 
> (Fuckin' *sadistic old PRICK!!*)​


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## Avorysuds

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.



Conservatives like me deny it too... It's fucking dumb.


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## Samson

Am I the only one that saw the movie?

Aztec Calendar?

Jeeze people, pay attention!!!

I've already reserved a campground on top of the Yellowstone Caldera.


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## Samson

G.T. said:


> I think the World is definitely deteriorating.



Just come out of the closet, for christssakes.


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## dilloduck

I know we don't need a reason for a war but I hope we come up with one we can all rally behind.
( and put me down as "against" the idea of calling it WWIII. Let's be creative this time )


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## bodecea

whitehall said:


> WW3? What you are asking is whether the US will face a revolution. The left tried it back in the 60's.



Quiz:   Why are most older (70-100 year old) Nat'l Guard armories built like castles?


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## Modbert

Foxfyre said:


> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.



Did you just decide to ignore Tunisia's revolution in order to throw in the remark about Israel?


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## Mr. Shaman

whitehall said:


> WW3? What you are asking is whether the US will face a *revolution*. The left tried it back in the 60's.


....And, we're *STILL winning it!!!!*









***





*"GIMME AN F......."*​


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## SFC Ollie

dilloduck said:


> I know we don't need a reason for a war but I hope we come up with one we can all rally behind.
> ( and put me down as "against" the idea of calling it WWIII. Let's be creative this time )



Like maybe Worldwide Nuclear Domination?


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## Richard-H

G.T. said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There will be major wars this decade. Whether any will qualify as a world war, I don't know.
> 
> The world is in turmoil. This is the time where men and women of virtue and character need to stand up and lead people to safety.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The real concern, in my opinion, is that once again the Wealthiest in the World have achieved a very unbalanced level of wealth in comparison to: "everyone else." As poverty increases and the affluent seem to prosper more and more, that's when real-life revolt happens because people are desperate. People don't like to die for a cause unless they're noble, or desperate. Most people aren't noble. As the desperation of the poor around the world rises, THIS is what will cause chaos. And this doesn't mean that I want to rob the rich and give to the poor, but there's certainly something to be said for how much of the well they're sucking up IN COMPARISON to all other Human Beings. Something will always "give" in these types of scenarios.
Click to expand...




I think you got it!

The only real difference between a politically stable period and a politically unstable period is the distribution of wealth.

Nobody wants handouts or revolution: we need economic leadership. But all we get is infinite greed.


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## dilloduck

SFC Ollie said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know we don't need a reason for a war but I hope we come up with one we can all rally behind.
> ( and put me down as "against" the idea of calling it WWIII. Let's be creative this time )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like maybe Worldwide Nuclear Domination?
Click to expand...


If one gets used it will be over quickly.


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## Foxfyre

Modbert said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you just decide to ignore Tunisia's revolution in order to throw in the remark about Israel?
Click to expand...


Back to geography class for you.  When you refresh your memory about where Tunisia is, you'll surely realize how non sequitur and ad hominem your comment is here.


----------



## dilloduck

Richard-H said:


> G.T. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There will be major wars this decade. Whether any will qualify as a world war, I don't know.
> 
> The world is in turmoil. This is the time where men and women of virtue and character need to stand up and lead people to safety.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The real concern, in my opinion, is that once again the Wealthiest in the World have achieved a very unbalanced level of wealth in comparison to: "everyone else." As poverty increases and the affluent seem to prosper more and more, that's when real-life revolt happens because people are desperate. People don't like to die for a cause unless they're noble, or desperate. Most people aren't noble. As the desperation of the poor around the world rises, THIS is what will cause chaos. And this doesn't mean that I want to rob the rich and give to the poor, but there's certainly something to be said for how much of the well they're sucking up IN COMPARISON to all other Human Beings. Something will always "give" in these types of scenarios.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you got it!
> 
> The only real difference between a politically stable period and a politically unstable period is the distribution of wealth.
> 
> Nobody wants handouts or revolution: we need economic leadership. But all we get is infinite greed.
Click to expand...


Could we get some really poor SOBs to lead us ? At least that way we wouldn't have to envy them.


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## JakeStarkey

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.



Are you talking in terms of evangelical and fundamental Christian end times eschatology?  If you are, then I would like to see your support for such a position.


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## Modbert

Foxfyre said:


> Back to geography class for you.  When you refresh your memory about where Tunisia is, you'll surely realize how non sequitur and ad hominem your comment is here.



Except you made the remark about Muslim countries. My comment had nothing to do about the geographical location of these Muslims. 99% of Tunisia are Muslims. This is about countries wanting democracy, not some sort of imaginary slight against Israel.

Never mind the fact your statement was woefully inaccurate.

Saudi Arabia gives Israel clear skies to attack Iranian nuclear sites - Times Online

You're also ignoring that while not at the best terms at the moment, Israel and Turkey have been on fairly good terms.


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## LordBrownTrout

I wonder if there is a correlation between the degenerative stages in society that are occurring worldwide AND Entropy/Second law of thermodynamics?


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## Richard-H

Oh well, with American unemployment so high, I guess that all the young kids can join the army, get basic training & experience, then join one of the private security companies and get sent all over the world to enforce stability.

I don't know exactly where in the Constitution it says that America is to be a world dominant military empire, but that seems to be the way it's been going for the past 50 years or so.

Hail Ceaser!

We really should consider invading Switzerland before it's too late.


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## Richard-H

dilloduck said:


> Richard-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G.T. said:
> 
> 
> 
> The real concern, in my opinion, is that once again the Wealthiest in the World have achieved a very unbalanced level of wealth in comparison to: "everyone else." As poverty increases and the affluent seem to prosper more and more, that's when real-life revolt happens because people are desperate. People don't like to die for a cause unless they're noble, or desperate. Most people aren't noble. As the desperation of the poor around the world rises, THIS is what will cause chaos. And this doesn't mean that I want to rob the rich and give to the poor, but there's certainly something to be said for how much of the well they're sucking up IN COMPARISON to all other Human Beings. Something will always "give" in these types of scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you got it!
> 
> The only real difference between a politically stable period and a politically unstable period is the distribution of wealth.
> 
> Nobody wants handouts or revolution: we need economic leadership. But all we get is infinite greed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could we get some really poor SOBs to lead us ? At least that way we wouldn't have to envy them.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but Stalin died years ago.


----------



## Charles_Main

bodecea said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> WW3? What you are asking is whether the US will face a revolution. The left tried it back in the 60's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quiz:   Why are most older (70-100 year old) Nat'l Guard armories built like castles?
Click to expand...


Because they were built before the Age of Blitzkrieg warfare. When you could expect to hold up in a fort and fend of an Enemy.

Not an option with today's weapons. The mobility And Destructive ability of Offensive warfare makes any Fixed position Defenses rather pointless.


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## Foxfyre

Modbert said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to geography class for you.  When you refresh your memory about where Tunisia is, you'll surely realize how non sequitur and ad hominem your comment is here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except you made the remark about Muslim countries. My comment had nothing to do about the geographical location of these Muslims. 99% of Tunisia are Muslims. This is about countries wanting democracy, not some sort of imaginary slight against Israel.
> 
> Never mind the fact your statement was woefully inaccurate.
> 
> Saudi Arabia gives Israel clear skies to attack Iranian nuclear sites - Times Online
> 
> You're also ignoring that while not at the best terms at the moment, Israel and Turkey have been on fairly good terms.
Click to expand...


The post of mine that you quoted didn't mention Muslims.  So do you have a fixation about Muslims or just read what isn't there?  I was referring to the two Middle East countries that just happen to have peace treaties with Israel.  That fact makes protests against their government more significant for Israel and, by default, for those of us who are allies of Israel.  Unrest in Tunisia really has nothing at all to do with that.

Turkey is not on record as having signed a peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan both have done.

Context Modbert.  Context.   Are are you just wanting to snark and snipe and don't care about the subject?

P.S.  Tunisia is not in the Middle East.


----------



## Intense

SFC Ollie said:


> We obviously should start thinking about pulling troops back to defensible borders....
> 
> Ya just never know.....



National Guard.


----------



## uscitizen

Has Fox fed the Chicken Little thing or what?


yes fear could lead to another major war since people seem to have lost their ability to reason things out.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Charles_Main said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> WW3? What you are asking is whether the US will face a revolution. The left tried it back in the 60's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quiz:   Why are most older (70-100 year old) Nat'l Guard armories built like castles?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they were built before the Age of Blitzkrieg warfare. When you could expect to hold up in a fort and fend of an Enemy.
> 
> Not an option with today's weapons. The mobility And Destructive ability of Offensive warfare makes any Fixed position Defenses rather pointless.
Click to expand...


yes, mobile defense and offense is the name of the game unless someone throws a tac or dirty nuke, then I guess the gloves come off.


----------



## bodecea

Charles_Main said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> WW3? What you are asking is whether the US will face a revolution. The left tried it back in the 60's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quiz:   Why are most older (70-100 year old) Nat'l Guard armories built like castles?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Because they were built before the Age of Blitzkrieg warfare*. When you could expect to hold up in a fort and fend of an Enemy.
> 
> Not an option with today's weapons. The mobility And Destructive ability of Offensive warfare makes any Fixed position Defenses rather pointless.
Click to expand...


No...try again....hint:   it has nothing to do with defense against foreign countries.


----------



## Mr. Shaman

Richard-H said:


> Oh well, with American unemployment so high, I guess that all the young kids can join the army, get basic training & experience, then join one of the private security companies and get sent all over the world to enforce stability.
> 
> I don't know exactly where in the Constitution it says that America is to be a world dominant military empire, but that seems to be the way it's been going for the past 50 years or so.


....And, pays *damned*-well.....for those folks, so developmentally-arrested, they wanna play _John Wayne_ the rest o' their life.​


> *Billions Wasted In Iraq?*​





Richard-H said:


> We really should consider invading Switzerland before it's too late.


I'm thinkin'  they've already paid their "dues", through cooperation!!






> *January 10, 2011*​
> "Internal Revenue Service Commissioner Doug Shulman closed out 2010 by dining out one last time on the success of the agencys recently-concluded enforcement effort against Switzerlands premier financial institution, UBS AG.
> 
> *The case targeted the bank and thousands of UBS clients, caught red-handed in a long-running fraud hiding as much as $20 billion in secret undeclared accounts and earning UBS up to $200 million a year in ill-begotten profits.*
> 
> *Taxpayers understand that the risk of being caught hiding assets offshore has increased significantly,* Shulman told an assembly of lawyers, corporate tax executives and accountants at the 23rd Annual Institution on Current Issues in International Taxation in Washington in December.
> 
> *Shulman said the agency is now carrying the fight against offshore tax abuse well beyond Switzerland and UBS* by replicating tactics honed in the UBS investigation: *Cleaning up abuses of the past* (Bush-years) *and then mining and leveraging the data we receive to mount a greater attack on the abuse.*
> 
> Shulman also said the IRS is seriously considering launching a new special amnesty program to induce even more U.S. tax-avoiders with offshore accounts to come in from the cold (the IRS estimates there are some 2 million Americans with foreign accounts, many of which are undeclared, costing the U.S. Treasury an estimated $100 billion in lost tax revenues because of offshore tax abuses)."
> 
> *HERE*​


Yeah....it's lookin' like the *high-roller$* are *ON THE RUN!!!!!!*



Hell....they can _probably_ use the exercise!!​


----------



## CoolBreeze

I would have to go along with Bucs, this is the beginning of change, big change.  For those who believe, our Lord has foretold us of this event.  However, what I have read on the subject seperate from the Bible, the US will not be involved in this war, we will be lucky if we are able to defend ourselves, let alone wage war.  Make no mistake though, if riots start here the military will put it down.  I remember back in the late 90s a membeer of the MSN Boards posted an article that seemed unbelieveable at the time.  Military commanders did a servey of their troops and asked them if they were capable if firing on their own citizens if ordered to,  the troops overwelmingly anwsered yes.

Have no fears though these changes will be for the better and peace will abound for a thousand years.


----------



## HUGGY

*World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?*

You are over reaching FF.  There has been and always will be civil unrest as long as power is withheld from the populace and miss used by those that believe they have some divine mandate to run the world or any part of it where populations are not treated with respect and the rights they believe are being withheld.  

Do you really think Albanians are going to join up wit Egyptians and so on?   

There will be at least one kind of universal uprising and that will be long and slow as the common man finally understands that the tyrants and the self appointed and the Religious Fundamentalists need to be thrown out on their asses from the seats of power. 

As far as the Europeans, African, Mid East and central Asian countries go...they are caught up in such a clusterfuck of old grievances that  there will be no settling any of it in our lifetime.  Let em fight it out..I don't care if they all butcher themselves.  There are too many humans on the planet anyway...let the stupid ones kill themselves off.


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> *World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?*
> 
> You are over reaching FF.  There has been and always will be civil unrest as long as power is withheld from the populace and miss used by those that believe they have some divine mandate to run the world or any part of it where populations are not treated with respect and the rights they believe are being withheld.
> 
> Do you really think Albanians are going to join up wit Egyptians and so on?
> 
> There will be at least one kind of universal uprising and that will be long and slow as the common man finally understands that the tyrants and the self appointed and the Religious Fundamentalists need to be thrown out on their asses from the seats of power.
> 
> As far as the Europeans, African, Mid East and central Asian countries go...they are caught up in such a clusterfuck of old grievances that  there will be no settling any of it in our lifetime.  Let em fight it out..I don't care if they all butcher themselves.  There are too many humans on the planet anyway...let the stupid ones kill themselves off.



Over reaching?  Really?  How am I over reaching anything as I have not provided my opinion as to the significance of the current events.   All I have done is compare them with the historical context.

If you think they don't fit the historical context, please provide your insight and perspective as to why they don't fit the historical context.

Who in their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen two small countries, Germany and Japan, join in a military compact with each other?   Who is their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen the USA as an ally with the U.S.S.R.?

And then tell me how a North Korea, an Iran, a Venzuela, and a Communist China, all with friendly relationships with each other, would not raise eyebrows of concern should they form a military alliance?


----------



## jillian

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.



wow... an endtimer.. who'd a thunk it? 

you don't have to be an atheist not to think revelations is anything more than someone's fantasy.


----------



## HUGGY

Foxfyre said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> *World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?*
> 
> You are over reaching FF.  There has been and always will be civil unrest as long as power is withheld from the populace and miss used by those that believe they have some divine mandate to run the world or any part of it where populations are not treated with respect and the rights they believe are being withheld.
> 
> Do you really think Albanians are going to join up wit Egyptians and so on?
> 
> There will be at least one kind of universal uprising and that will be long and slow as the common man finally understands that the tyrants and the self appointed and the Religious Fundamentalists need to be thrown out on their asses from the seats of power.
> 
> As far as the Europeans, African, Mid East and central Asian countries go...they are caught up in such a clusterfuck of old grievances that  there will be no settling any of it in our lifetime.  Let em fight it out..I don't care if they all butcher themselves.  There are too many humans on the planet anyway...let the stupid ones kill themselves off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over reaching?  Really?  How am I over reaching anything as I have not provided my opinion as to the significance of the current events.   All I have done is compare them with the historical context.
> 
> If you think they don't fit the historical context, please provide your insight and perspective as to why they don't fit the historical context.
> 
> Who in their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen two small countries, Germany and Japan, join in a military compact with each other?   Who is their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen the USA as an ally with the U.S.S.R.?
> 
> And then tell me how a North Korea, an Iran, a Venzuela, and a Communist China, all with friendly relationships with each other, would not raise eyebrows of concern should they form a military alliance?
Click to expand...


Perhaps I missed your main focus.  I have to admit I didn't even read your whole OP in detail.  I skimmed it.  My bad.  I'm still not really sure how the OP title fits your text.

Guessing all the possible alliances and trouble spots is much akin to herding cats.  There are still as there always have been countries in flux and transition.  Ya Venezuela surprised me too..and I'm familiar with that part of the world.  BUT ..this is the age of super communication and what Chavez see's as a benefit for his country may be valid from his standpoint.  We may not like it but it really isn't our call.  There are about as many different reasons as there are conflicts and future conflicts.  That's what the CIA gets paid to keep track of and either they are dropping the ball or keeping it to themselves.

In any case our citizens are never the first to find out.


----------



## Old Rocks

What we are seeing is the realization by a lot of people in nations that have a ruling class that retains the wealth for a very small percentage of it's citizens. Nations where one is not free to speak your mind. The net is a facililator of of the unrest, because people can share knowledge.

Yes, there is going to an increased amount of unrest as more people realize the amount of bullshit the religious and political leaders have fed them over the years. World War Three? No, more like the waves of unrest that swept the nations after the Guttenberg Bible was published. Followed by all kinds of books. Such as the writings of John Locke and Thomas Paine. The dissemination of knowledge to an everwidening number of citizens of all nations created a very precarious situation for the rulers of that period. Now the dissemination of knowledge through the internet is many orders of magnitudes greater than that earlier period. 

Folks, this is just the beginning. Nations not connected to the net, such as North Korea, will find themselves ever more isolated and poor, while those connected to the net will find themselves less and less capable of lying successfully to their citizens.


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> *World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?*
> 
> You are over reaching FF.  There has been and always will be civil unrest as long as power is withheld from the populace and miss used by those that believe they have some divine mandate to run the world or any part of it where populations are not treated with respect and the rights they believe are being withheld.
> 
> Do you really think Albanians are going to join up wit Egyptians and so on?
> 
> There will be at least one kind of universal uprising and that will be long and slow as the common man finally understands that the tyrants and the self appointed and the Religious Fundamentalists need to be thrown out on their asses from the seats of power.
> 
> As far as the Europeans, African, Mid East and central Asian countries go...they are caught up in such a clusterfuck of old grievances that  there will be no settling any of it in our lifetime.  Let em fight it out..I don't care if they all butcher themselves.  There are too many humans on the planet anyway...let the stupid ones kill themselves off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over reaching?  Really?  How am I over reaching anything as I have not provided my opinion as to the significance of the current events.   All I have done is compare them with the historical context.
> 
> If you think they don't fit the historical context, please provide your insight and perspective as to why they don't fit the historical context.
> 
> Who in their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen two small countries, Germany and Japan, join in a military compact with each other?   Who is their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen the USA as an ally with the U.S.S.R.?
> 
> And then tell me how a North Korea, an Iran, a Venzuela, and a Communist China, all with friendly relationships with each other, would not raise eyebrows of concern should they form a military alliance?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps I missed your main focus.  I have to admit I didn't even read your whole OP in detail.  I skimmed it.  My bad.  I'm still not really sure how the OP title fits your text.
> 
> Guessing all the possible alliances and trouble spots is much akin to herding cats.  There are still as there always have been countries in flux and transition.  Ya Venezuela surprised me too..and I'm familiar with that part of the world.  BUT ..this is the age of super communication and what Chavez see's as a benefit for his country may be valid from his standpoint.  We may not like it but it really isn't our call.  There are about as many different reasons as there are conflicts and future conflicts.  That's what the CIA gets paid to keep track of and either they are dropping the ball or keeping it to themselves.
> 
> In any case our citizens are never the first to find out.
Click to expand...


In this age of super communications, I think citizens may actually be aware of stuff and it takes awhile for the C.I.A. to catch up.   I know the citizens are quite often way ahead of the news media.

The point is, I don't want us to stick our heads in the sand or pretend everything is just hunky dory wonderful or business as usual here in the USA and/or in the world when our gut tells us to be cautious.  I don't want another holocaust.  I don't want another cold war resulting in the emaciation and death of tens of millions.  Can you Huggy or me Foxfyre stop it?  Of course not.  But the more that are aware, the less likely stuff is to fall between the cracks.

It's that same old saw:  Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  The way things are shaping up--the USA is weakened from a prolonged recession and is no doubt perceived as weak.  Same in the years leading up to WWII yes?  The perception that there is no real superpower in existence.

You have rogue governments who intend nobody any good building up their armies, resources, fuel dumps, etc. etc. etc. and becoming friendly with each other.

Much ado about nothing?  Maybe.  Maybe even probably.

But I don't think we should assume that and not be paying attention.


----------



## Richard-H

JakeStarkey said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quiz:   Why are most older (70-100 year old) Nat'l Guard armories built like castles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because they were built before the Age of Blitzkrieg warfare. When you could expect to hold up in a fort and fend of an Enemy.
> 
> Not an option with today's weapons. The mobility And Destructive ability of Offensive warfare makes any Fixed position Defenses rather pointless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes, mobile defense and offense is the name of the game unless someone throws a tac or dirty nuke, then I guess the gloves come off.
Click to expand...


Yea! That's when we liberals are going to all join hands and sing kum-by-ya

Then whatta gonna do?!?!?


----------



## HUGGY

Foxfyre said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Over reaching?  Really?  How am I over reaching anything as I have not provided my opinion as to the significance of the current events.   All I have done is compare them with the historical context.
> 
> If you think they don't fit the historical context, please provide your insight and perspective as to why they don't fit the historical context.
> 
> Who in their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen two small countries, Germany and Japan, join in a military compact with each other?   Who is their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen the USA as an ally with the U.S.S.R.?
> 
> And then tell me how a North Korea, an Iran, a Venzuela, and a Communist China, all with friendly relationships with each other, would not raise eyebrows of concern should they form a military alliance?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I missed your main focus.  I have to admit I didn't even read your whole OP in detail.  I skimmed it.  My bad.  I'm still not really sure how the OP title fits your text.
> 
> Guessing all the possible alliances and trouble spots is much akin to herding cats.  There are still as there always have been countries in flux and transition.  Ya Venezuela surprised me too..and I'm familiar with that part of the world.  BUT ..this is the age of super communication and what Chavez see's as a benefit for his country may be valid from his standpoint.  We may not like it but it really isn't our call.  There are about as many different reasons as there are conflicts and future conflicts.  That's what the CIA gets paid to keep track of and either they are dropping the ball or keeping it to themselves.
> 
> In any case our citizens are never the first to find out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In this age of super communications, I think citizens may actually be aware of stuff and it takes awhile for the C.I.A. to catch up.   I know the citizens are quite often way ahead of the news media.
> 
> The point is, I don't want us to stick our heads in the sand or pretend everything is just hunky dory wonderful or business as usual here in the USA and/or in the world when our gut tells us to be cautious.  I don't want another holocaust.  I don't want another cold war resulting in the emaciation and death of tens of millions.  Can you Huggy or me Foxfyre stop it?  Of course not.  But the more that are aware, the less likely stuff is to fall between the cracks.
> 
> It's that same old saw:  Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  The way things are shaping up--the USA is weakened from a prolonged recession and is no doubt perceived as weak.  Same in the years leading up to WWII yes?  The perception that there is no real superpower in existence.
> 
> You have rogue governments who intend nobody any good building up their armies, resources, fuel dumps, etc. etc. etc. and becoming friendly with each other.
> 
> Much ado about nothing?  Maybe.  Maybe even probably.
> 
> But I don't think we should assume that and not be paying attention.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure that the biggest threat to world stability might not be financial abuses like we have just endured.  Not all dangerous secrets and goings on are grass roots and political in nature.  Think of the general harm caused by the inner circle of financial giants on the rest of the world.  When they fuck around and end up crashing whole economies and there are MILLIONS put out of work as a result ...if you ask me that is as good a genesis of unrest as any.


----------



## Cain

World War 3? Well, if it does happen, I guess all I can say is, I'll be among the military members. I can't really say my feelings on it, I mean, if someone bombs the US and we find out it really was them, then let's do it, but honestly, I doubt that is how a major war will start. I understand people opposing it, but I personally do not claim to know whether we are better off without a conflict or not. I just hope the economy can get better for the common man. I have NO idea about economics, I took Honors Economics last semester and that consisted of 'self-finance' basically teaching kids how to not screw themselves with credit cards, which anyone with common sense (at least too me) should know how NOT to do. 

I hope that the world changes, I would not want to start a family in this economy, but I also know I am going to do my best to be the best for the country I was born & raised in. My opinion is this: What happens, happens, and all I can say is I am doing my best to educate myself, and learn from others, and better myself daily. I know it sounds corny, but that is the best I have.


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I missed your main focus.  I have to admit I didn't even read your whole OP in detail.  I skimmed it.  My bad.  I'm still not really sure how the OP title fits your text.
> 
> Guessing all the possible alliances and trouble spots is much akin to herding cats.  There are still as there always have been countries in flux and transition.  Ya Venezuela surprised me too..and I'm familiar with that part of the world.  BUT ..this is the age of super communication and what Chavez see's as a benefit for his country may be valid from his standpoint.  We may not like it but it really isn't our call.  There are about as many different reasons as there are conflicts and future conflicts.  That's what the CIA gets paid to keep track of and either they are dropping the ball or keeping it to themselves.
> 
> In any case our citizens are never the first to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this age of super communications, I think citizens may actually be aware of stuff and it takes awhile for the C.I.A. to catch up.   I know the citizens are quite often way ahead of the news media.
> 
> The point is, I don't want us to stick our heads in the sand or pretend everything is just hunky dory wonderful or business as usual here in the USA and/or in the world when our gut tells us to be cautious.  I don't want another holocaust.  I don't want another cold war resulting in the emaciation and death of tens of millions.  Can you Huggy or me Foxfyre stop it?  Of course not.  But the more that are aware, the less likely stuff is to fall between the cracks.
> 
> It's that same old saw:  Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  The way things are shaping up--the USA is weakened from a prolonged recession and is no doubt perceived as weak.  Same in the years leading up to WWII yes?  The perception that there is no real superpower in existence.
> 
> You have rogue governments who intend nobody any good building up their armies, resources, fuel dumps, etc. etc. etc. and becoming friendly with each other.
> 
> Much ado about nothing?  Maybe.  Maybe even probably.
> 
> But I don't think we should assume that and not be paying attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that the biggest threat to world stability might not be financial abuses like we have just endured.  Not all dangerous secrets and goings on are grass roots and political in nature.  Think of the general harm caused by the inner circle of financial giants on the rest of the world.  When they fuck around and end up crashing whole economies and there are MILLIONS put out of work as a result ...if you ask me that is as good a genesis of unrest as any.
Click to expand...


I can't quarrel with that.  Hitler did unbelievable harm and damage by demonizing Jews, Gypsies, gays, and the mentally ill and accusing them of all of Germany's ills so that people wouldn't notice that his end game was to conquer as much of his world as he could reach.

These days we may have a whole new category of demons:  the rich; the capitalists, the individual liberties movements such as the Tea Partiers,  big oil, or whatever the target of the day might be.  (I know, I know 'target' is soooo politically incorrect but I'm a determinably non politically correct person.)  Such exists in every nation.

This time nobody will be rounding them up (right away anyway) for the firing squads, internment camps, or gas chambers, but blaming them for economic collapse that devastates a nation while opportunists quietly use that situation to seize power and control does not seem all that unrealistic to me.  When the people perceive an enemy, even a manufactured one, they are all too willing to embrace the knight in shining armor who comes to 'save' them and they won't ask too many questions.

I don't think we should count it as unrealistic that World War III won't be fought with bombs and bullets as much as it will be fought with ideas, computers, and economic sabotage.


----------



## Trajan

Foxfyre said:


> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result:  World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?



not yet. we are still imho, around 1933...we've got a ways to go.


----------



## Foxfyre

Cain said:


> World War 3? Well, if it does happen, I guess all I can say is, I'll be among the military members. I can't really say my feelings on it, I mean, if someone bombs the US and we find out it really was them, then let's do it, but honestly, I doubt that is how a major war will start. I understand people opposing it, but I personally do not claim to know whether we are better off without a conflict or not. I just hope the economy can get better for the common man. I have NO idea about economics, I took Honors Economics last semester and that consisted of 'self-finance' basically teaching kids how to not screw themselves with credit cards, which anyone with common sense (at least too me) should know how NOT to do.
> 
> I hope that the world changes, I would not want to start a family in this economy, but I also know I am going to do my best to be the best for the country I was born & raised in. My opinion is this: What happens, happens, and all I can say is I am doing my best to educate myself, and learn from others, and better myself daily. I know it sounds corny, but that is the best I have.



Your best is almost certainly more than most people even attempt to give, and thank you for your service.

My hope is that people like you won't be thrown away or sacrificed or put at risk for anything that you would not choose to fight for whether or not you are in the military.  And I would feel completely blessed and at peace if I could see a world that intercepted and stopped the bad guys before they could create chaos and our young men and women would never need to be put at risk in war again.


----------



## Cain

Foxfyre said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> World War 3? Well, if it does happen, I guess all I can say is, I'll be among the military members. I can't really say my feelings on it, I mean, if someone bombs the US and we find out it really was them, then let's do it, but honestly, I doubt that is how a major war will start. I understand people opposing it, but I personally do not claim to know whether we are better off without a conflict or not. I just hope the economy can get better for the common man. I have NO idea about economics, I took Honors Economics last semester and that consisted of 'self-finance' basically teaching kids how to not screw themselves with credit cards, which anyone with common sense (at least too me) should know how NOT to do.
> 
> I hope that the world changes, I would not want to start a family in this economy, but I also know I am going to do my best to be the best for the country I was born & raised in. My opinion is this: What happens, happens, and all I can say is I am doing my best to educate myself, and learn from others, and better myself daily. I know it sounds corny, but that is the best I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your best is almost certainly more than most people even attempt to give, and thank you for your service.
> 
> My hope is that people like you won't be thrown away or sacrificed or put at risk for anything that you would not choose to fight for whether or not you are in the military.  And I would feel completely blessed and at peace if I could see a world that intercepted and stopped the bad guys before they could create chaos and our young men and women would never need to be put at risk in war again.
Click to expand...


Well, to be honest, my contract says I will follow orders, and that is all I know to do at this point. I mean, if they tell me to go in and attack a nation, I will, and I only have hope it is for the right reasons. I may sound like a robot or something, but frankly, that's how I see it.

Thanks for thanking me, but I am just ready to ship out and get through Basic/Tech School and finally get to wear the Air Force ABU, that is going to be a moment in my life I'll never forget.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah

This is  all about establishing Islamic hegenomy around the world , Just another chapter.


----------



## The T

Mr.Fitnah said:


> This is all about establishing Islamic hegenomy around the world , Just another chapter.


 
Nothing more....Some forget the role of the "MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD" that is in effect al-queida.


----------



## dilloduck

yet some still have the audacity to curse Christians pushing their agendas.


----------



## Toro

Plasmaball said:


> no...thread over



This.


----------



## Foxfyre

Yanno if you don't find the topic interesting enough to discuss, all you have to do is not post and/or unsubscribe.  It is obvious that several do find the topic sufficiently interesting to discuss.  I imagine those who aren't interested in or do not have a good grasp of history won't be as interested as those who do.

While a lot of the unrest does involve Muslims these days, not all.  I think the conflict in Albania, for instance, is far more economically driven than anything religious, ethnic, or motivated by world denomination.  The problem with economic unrest, however, is that if the government is sufficiently weakened or toppled, there will be those more than willing to step into the void.  Perhaps those who are engineering the economic unrest so that they can do that.

Which, if we are all honest, has been suggested even here in the USA.

Well I'm off to bed for tonight, but I shall return.


----------



## Mr. Shaman

CoolBreeze said:


> I would have to go along with Bucs, this is the beginning of change, big change.  For those who believe, *our Lord has foretold us of this event.*


Ya' got an (actual) signed-document, on that one.....or, just that *big, black blog-book??*

​


> *The Armageddon Syndrome*​
> <...'Cause, poorly-educated people need *something* to believe-in.>​


----------



## Mr. Shaman

HUGGY said:


> *World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?*
> 
> You are over reaching FF.  There has been and always will be civil unrest as long as power is withheld from the populace and miss used by those that believe they have some divine mandate to run the world or any part of it where populations are not treated with respect and the rights they believe are being withheld.
> 
> Do you really think Albanians are going to join up wit Egyptians and so on?
> 
> There will be at least one kind of universal uprising and that will be long and slow as the common man finally understands that the tyrants and the self appointed and the Religious Fundamentalists need to be thrown out on their asses from the seats of power.
> 
> As far as the Europeans, African, Mid East and central Asian countries go...*they are caught up in such a clusterfuck of old grievances that  there will be no settling any of it in our lifetime.*


.....Just like the Soviet Union, right?



<What *other* _Absolutes_ ya' got????>​


----------



## Mr. Shaman

Foxfyre said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> *World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?*
> 
> You are over reaching FF.  There has been and always will be civil unrest as long as power is withheld from the populace and miss used by those that believe they have some divine mandate to run the world or any part of it where populations are not treated with respect and the rights they believe are being withheld.
> 
> Do you really think Albanians are going to join up wit Egyptians and so on?
> 
> There will be at least one kind of universal uprising and that will be long and slow as the common man finally understands that the tyrants and the self appointed and the Religious Fundamentalists need to be thrown out on their asses from the seats of power.
> 
> As far as the Europeans, African, Mid East and central Asian countries go...they are caught up in such a clusterfuck of old grievances that  there will be no settling any of it in our lifetime.  Let em fight it out..I don't care if they all butcher themselves.  There are too many humans on the planet anyway...let the stupid ones kill themselves off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And then tell me how a North Korea, an Iran, a Venzuela, and a Communist China, all with friendly relationships with each other, would not raise eyebrows of concern should they form a military alliance?*
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, because......after *all*, they're not (what?)....*White*-enough, to have (strictly) on-going *commercial*-interests??​


----------



## Mr. Shaman

jillian said:


> bucs90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wow... an endtimer.. who'd a thunk it?
> 
> you don't have to be an atheist not to think revelations is anything more than someone's fantasy.
Click to expand...




> *"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."* - Albert Einstein​





<....But, you folks who *need* The Ten Commandments, to keep-you-in-line.....carry-on.>​


----------



## Mr. Shaman

HUGGY said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> *World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?*
> 
> You are over reaching FF.  There has been and always will be civil unrest as long as power is withheld from the populace and miss used by those that believe they have some divine mandate to run the world or any part of it where populations are not treated with respect and the rights they believe are being withheld.
> 
> Do you really think Albanians are going to join up wit Egyptians and so on?
> 
> There will be at least one kind of universal uprising and that will be long and slow as the common man finally understands that the tyrants and the self appointed and the Religious Fundamentalists need to be thrown out on their asses from the seats of power.
> 
> As far as the Europeans, African, Mid East and central Asian countries go...they are caught up in such a clusterfuck of old grievances that  there will be no settling any of it in our lifetime.  Let em fight it out..I don't care if they all butcher themselves.  There are too many humans on the planet anyway...let the stupid ones kill themselves off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over reaching?  Really?  How am I over reaching anything as I have not provided my opinion as to the significance of the current events.   All I have done is compare them with the historical context.
> 
> If you think they don't fit the historical context, please provide your insight and perspective as to why they don't fit the historical context.
> 
> Who in their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen two small countries, Germany and Japan, join in a military compact with each other?   Who is their wildest dreams a year or two before it happened would have seen the USA as an ally with the U.S.S.R.?
> 
> And then tell me how a North Korea, an Iran, a Venzuela, and a Communist China, all with friendly relationships with each other, would not raise eyebrows of concern should they form a military alliance?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps I missed your main focus.  I have to admit I didn't even read your whole OP in detail.  I skimmed it.  My bad.  I'm still not really sure how the OP title fits your text.
> 
> Guessing all the possible alliances and trouble spots is much akin to herding cats.  There are still as there always have been countries in flux and transition.  Ya Venezuela surprised me too..and I'm familiar with that part of the world.  BUT ..*this is the age of super communication and what Chavez see's as a benefit for his country may be valid from his standpoint.  We may not like it but it really isn't our call.  There are about as many different reasons as there are conflicts and future conflicts.*  That's what the CIA gets paid to keep track of and either they are dropping the ball or keeping it to themselves.
> 
> In any case *our citizens are never the first to find out.*
Click to expand...










​


----------



## Wry Catcher

Foxfyre said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think a review of History will show that in your second paragraph you discribe some events leading up to WWII.
> 
> Ford stock sure took a dump today but I doubt it was over the unrest in Egypt.
> 
> I don't doubt there will be wars in the coming century but I don't buy in the the whole  propohetic/Amageddon thing.
> 
> Think I'd go with Plasma on this.  Moving on......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes when the market is bumping up against a psychological threshhold--in this case 12,000--it doesn't take much to trigger a sell off.
> 
> But the general wisdom of the day is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stocks slumped as the protests in Egypt raised concerns the government was losing control, which would lead to instability in the region. The news was roiling markets worldwide.
> 
> The uncertainty surrounding the events also gave investors a reason to sell after five months of solid gains, and as the Dow and S&P bumped up against key thresholds, analysts said.
> 
> That and weak earnings news out of Amazon.com, Ford and Microsoft, provided another catalyst for investors to sell, said Ryan Detrick, senior technical analyst at Schaeffer's Investment Research.
> 
> The selling&#8212;which came from big institutions&#8212;was taking place amid significant volume, indicating more conviction in the moves, Detrick said.
> 
> "Egypt is definitely at the forefront today," agreed Paul Brigandi, senior vice president of portfolio management at Direxion Funds/Direxion Shares. "Overall, political unrest is never good for the market, especially when it has to do with the Middle East."
> 
> But the events in Egypt hit at a time when the market was bumping up against psychologically important benchmarks, and was beginning to "look fatigued" after rallying for some eight or nine weeks, said Brigandi, noting that the S&P 500 had been up 3 percent so far this year on top of a nearly 13 percent gain in 2010.
> News Headlines
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So yeah, Egypt isn't the whole story, but is obviously a component.  Still, there are other threads dealing with the mess in Egypt.
> 
> I am neither a fatalist nor an alarmist I think.  But as a student of history, I am watching the big picture with a great deal of interest these days.  I think attention should be paid.
Click to expand...


As a student of history, I wonder why you chose to suggest a third world war?

I see a different scenario, a nexus to the unrest which lead to the French Revolution and the waves of revolution in 1848. 

In our time The Iranian People were crushed but not defeated; remember, even though the revolutions in 1848 were largely unsuccessful, and tens of thousands of people lost their lives,  change was seeded in the minds of the people and eventually took root.

Authoritarian governments and their leaders are at great risk, and they usually fail to learn from history.  Watching as they try to retain their power and authority will be interesting. Such leaders may well be served by reviewing the events in Romania in 1989, and the fate of Nicolae Ceau&#351;escut.


----------



## Mr. Shaman

Old Rocks said:


> What we are seeing is the realization by a lot of people in nations that have a ruling class that retains the wealth for a very small percentage of it's citizens. Nations where one is not free to speak your mind. *The net is a facililator of of the unrest, because people can share knowledge.*
> 
> Yes, there is going to an increased amount of unrest as more people realize the amount of bullshit the religious and political leaders have fed them over the years. World War Three? *No, more like the waves of unrest that swept the nations after the Guttenberg Bible was published. Followed by all kinds of books. Such as the writings of John Locke and Thomas Paine. The dissemination of knowledge to an everwidening number of citizens of all nations created a very precarious situation for the rulers of that period. Now the dissemination of knowledge through the internet is many orders of magnitudes greater than that earlier period.
> 
> Folks, this is just the beginning. Nations not connected to the net, such as North Korea, will find themselves ever more isolated and poor, while those connected to the net will find themselves less and less capable of lying successfully to their citizens.*


*Bingo!!!!*












> "*The immediate effect of the printing press was to multiply the output and cut the costs of books. It thus made information available to a much larger segment of the population who were, of course, eager for information of any variety.* Libraries could now store greater quantities of information at much lower cost. Printing also facilitated the dissemination and preservation of knowledge in standardized form -- this was most important in the advance of science, technology and scholarship.
> 
> *The printing press certainly initiated an "information revolution" on par with the Internet today. Printing could and did spread new ideas quickly and with greater impact.*"
> 
> *HERE*​



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrC5DQt6gA&feature=player_embedded[/ame]​


----------



## Sallow

Man you chicken littles are funnah!


----------



## Mr. Shaman

Wry Catcher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think a review of History will show that in your second paragraph you discribe some events leading up to WWII.
> 
> Ford stock sure took a dump today but I doubt it was over the unrest in Egypt.
> 
> I don't doubt there will be wars in the coming century but I don't buy in the the whole  propohetic/Amageddon thing.
> 
> Think I'd go with Plasma on this.  Moving on......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes when the market is bumping up against a psychological threshhold--in this case 12,000--it doesn't take much to trigger a sell off.
> 
> But the general wisdom of the day is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stocks slumped as the protests in Egypt raised concerns the government was losing control, which would lead to instability in the region. The news was roiling markets worldwide.
> 
> The uncertainty surrounding the events also gave investors a reason to sell after five months of solid gains, and as the Dow and S&P bumped up against key thresholds, analysts said.
> 
> That and weak earnings news out of Amazon.com, Ford and Microsoft, provided another catalyst for investors to sell, said Ryan Detrick, senior technical analyst at Schaeffer's Investment Research.
> 
> The selling&#8212;which came from big institutions&#8212;was taking place amid significant volume, indicating more conviction in the moves, Detrick said.
> 
> "Egypt is definitely at the forefront today," agreed Paul Brigandi, senior vice president of portfolio management at Direxion Funds/Direxion Shares. "Overall, political unrest is never good for the market, especially when it has to do with the Middle East."
> 
> But the events in Egypt hit at a time when the market was bumping up against psychologically important benchmarks, and was beginning to "look fatigued" after rallying for some eight or nine weeks, said Brigandi, noting that the S&P 500 had been up 3 percent so far this year on top of a nearly 13 percent gain in 2010.
> News Headlines
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So yeah, Egypt isn't the whole story, but is obviously a component.  Still, there are other threads dealing with the mess in Egypt.
> 
> I am neither a fatalist nor an alarmist I think.  But as a student of history, I am watching the big picture with a great deal of interest these days.  I think attention should be paid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As a student of history, I wonder why you chose to suggest a third world war?
> 
> I see a different scenario, a nexus to the unrest which lead to the French Revolution and the waves of revolution in 1848.
> 
> In our time The Iranian People were crushed but not defeated; remember, even though the revolutions in 1848 were largely unsuccessful, and tens of thousands of people lost their lives,  change was seeded in the minds of the people and eventually took root.
> 
> Authoritarian governments and their leaders are at great risk, and they usually fail to learn from history.  Watching as they try to retain their power and authority will be interesting. *Such leaders may well be served by reviewing the events in Romania in 1989, and the fate of Nicolae Ceau&#351;escut.*
Click to expand...

Ah, yes.....the genesis/breeding-ground of *WTF???!!!!!* 

*

When people get to tossing-around the various theories about *WHY* *THE WALL* came down, I can't help-but-think *it was "DALLAS" THAT BROUGHT-DOWN 
THE WALL!!!!!*

*HERE*​


----------



## Bill Angel

Actually, some people believe we are currently fighting World War IV!
 Norman Podhoretz has written a book with that title, with the focal point of the struggle being "The Long Struggle Against Islamofascism".
The current conflict in Eqypt resembles I think Iran when the Shah was in charge of the country and the Islamofascists expelled him from power.  
It's possible that another Islamofascist country allied with the "Axis of Evil" could emerge from Eqypt's current turmoil, do you think?


----------



## Mr. Shaman

Bill Angel said:


> Actually, some people believe we are currently fighting World War IV!
> Norman Podhoretz has written a book with that title, with the focal point of the struggle being "The Long Struggle Against Islamofascism".
> The current conflict in Eqypt resembles I think Iran when the Shah was in charge of the country and the Islamofascists expelled him from power.


Yeah.....let's give the folks, *who put The Shah back-into power*, a "pass".​


> "Although official U.S. reports and published accounts described Mosaddeq's overthrow and the shah's restoration to power as inspired and carried out by Iranians, *this was far from the FULL story.* Memoirs of key CIA and British intelligence operatives and historical reconstructions of events have long established that a joint U.S.-British covert operation took place in mid-August, which had a crucial impact.
> 
> *The joint U.S.-British operation ended Iran's drive to assert sovereign control over its own resources and helped put an end to a vibrant chapter in the history of the country's nationalist and democratic movements.* These consequences resonated with dramatic effect in later years. When the Shah finally fell in 1979, memories of the U.S. intervention in 1953, which made possible the monarch's subsequent, and increasingly unpopular, 25-reign intensified the anti-American character of the revolution in the minds of many Iranians."
> 
> *HERE*​



You people, who throw-around the term "Islamofascists", have no fuckin' idea what's (actually) gone-on/*going*-on, in Iran.....and, you could hardly *give*-a-shit, long-enough, to *find-OUT!!*

Your *LAZINESS* has created enough problems, *as it is!!!!*

*GET OUTTA THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!*​


> "*So 30 years after seizing power, the mullahs of Qom find themselves in a difficult spot.* To turn back the domestic tide of reform they must employ the very tools employed by the despised shah&#8212;mass arrests and trials, torture, execution and censorship. *Older Iranians recognize this approach as the very thing they rebelled against in 1979. Younger Iranians have the same energy and spirit as their elders, only this time around, the revolutionary rhetoric of change is no longer anti-American and Islamist.
> 
> Iranians want real democracy.*"
> 
> *HERE*​



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vTuWI4xb-U&playnext=1&list=PL95BBDD2E341EF2EB[/ame]​


----------



## Wry Catcher

Foxfyre said:


> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result:  World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?



Yesterday I wrote this:

"As a student of history, I wonder why you chose to suggest a third world war?

I see a different scenario, a nexus to the unrest which lead to the French Revolution and the waves of revolution in 1848. 

In our time The Iranian People were crushed but not defeated; remember, even though the revolutions in 1848 were largely unsuccessful, and tens of thousands of people lost their lives, change was seeded in the minds of the people and eventually took root.

Authoritarian governments and their leaders are at great risk, and they usually fail to learn from history. Watching as they try to retain their power and authority will be interesting. Such leaders may well be served by reviewing the events in Romania in 1989, and the fate of Nicolae Ceau&#351;escut."

Today, I read this:

Iraqis watch Egypt unrest with sense of irony - Yahoo! News


----------



## Foxfyre

Wry Catcher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result:  World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday I wrote this:
> 
> "As a student of history, I wonder why you chose to suggest a third world war?
> 
> I see a different scenario, a nexus to the unrest which lead to the French Revolution and the waves of revolution in 1848.
> 
> In our time The Iranian People were crushed but not defeated; remember, even though the revolutions in 1848 were largely unsuccessful, and tens of thousands of people lost their lives, change was seeded in the minds of the people and eventually took root.
> 
> Authoritarian governments and their leaders are at great risk, and they usually fail to learn from history. Watching as they try to retain their power and authority will be interesting. Such leaders may well be served by reviewing the events in Romania in 1989, and the fate of Nicolae Ceau&#351;escut."
> 
> Today, I read this:
> 
> Iraqis watch Egypt unrest with sense of irony - Yahoo! News
Click to expand...


I also am a student of history and I didn't suggest a world war.  I raised the question of whether that was a possibility.

I raised the same question on another board when Hezbollah was lobbing rockets into Israel egged on by Hamas, armed by Syria who was being supplied by Iran who in turn was being cheered and applauded by many others.  I haven't been back on that board in more than a year, but when I left it had more than 10,000 replies and almost 120,000 looks.

There are a lot of us with a strong sense of history who pay attention when small rogue nations start forming unusual alliances at the same time they are building up their forces and demonstrating aggressive behavior toward others.  Pretty much every major war has started out just that way and it usually happens when there is widespread general unrest.  Most such phenomenon does not produce a major war, but when it does, it is devastating.  I think it would be foolish not to keep an eye on such things.   Certainly sticking one's head in the sand or shrugging it off as unimportant is not a wise thing to do.

So I pay attention.   And I find it interesting.  And apparently others do too.


----------



## Foxfyre

The headlines on Drudge are fascinating if the stories match the thesis of each--I haven't checked them all out yet so don't know. . . .

USA 'SECRETLY BACKS UPRISING'...

BIDEN: Mubarak not a dictator, shouldn't resign...

Axelrod: Obama 'Directly Confronted' Mubarak for Past 2 Years 'To Get Ahead of This'...

Egyptian Strife Sends Oil Close To $100 On Suez Canal Closure Fears...

Muslim Brotherhood: Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States...

Iran Sees Rise of Islamic Hard-Liners in Arab Lands...

Shutdown of Internet first in history...

Thousands protest in Jordan, demand PM step down... 

Huge anti-government protest in Albania...

New protests erupt in Yemen...


And the unfolding news today:

Police disappear from streets...
Gangs with machetes, knives run wild...
UPDATE: 100+ dead; 2,000 injured...
ElBaradei: US 'losing credibility by the day'...
Clinton calls for 'orderly transition'...
Fighter jets swoop over Cairo in show of force...
Mubarak meets with military commanders...
Flights out halted, tourists trapped...
But 19 private jets get out...
Egypt shuts down Al Jazeera bureau...

So what is it?  We're supporting the Egyptian government?  We're supporting the uprising?

I can't help but think back to 1979 when then President Jimmy Carter interjected some U.S. influence into removing the dictator Shah of Iran, friendly to the U.S., so that the people would replace him with a democratic government.  But what happened was a huge hole left in leadership eagerly filled by the Ayatollah Khomeni, radical Muslim fundamentalist, who was far more backward thinking and oppressive than the Shah ever was.  The U.S. Embassy was overrun and the entire staff taken hostage for 444 days.  They were released when Reagan was inaugerated President to symbolically thumb their nose at an interfering Carter.

So are we making the same mistake now by undercutting the existing leadership of Egypt in hopes a democratic government will be installed? Or are the headlines suggesting we back the current leadership correct?  If the current leadership is ousted, history suggests that we may wind up with a worse devil unfriendly to the U.S. and hostile to Israel.

No wonder the world is watching with horror and intense interest.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

No.


----------



## Bill Angel

Foxfyre said:


> So what is it?  We're supporting the Egyptian government?  We're supporting the uprising?
> ...
> So are we making the same mistake now by undercutting the existing leadership of Egypt in hopes a democratic government will be installed? Or are the headlines suggesting we back the current leadership correct?  If the current leadership is ousted, history suggests that we may wind up with a worse devil unfriendly to the U.S. and hostile to Israel.
> 
> No wonder the world is watching with horror and intense interest.



Since 1948 the USA has contributed 70 Billion dollars in foreign aid to Egypt.
It's stunning to think it's possible that a change of regime in Egypt (in the near future) could lead to a repudiation of the total US investment/assistance to that country.


----------



## CoolBreeze

End of timer?  No it is not the end of thim, it is the beginning of a new age.  What we are witnessing are the birth pangs.  However, there will be harder times than we are experiancing now before it gets better. ythose who survive will be the ones who reconize the signs and are able to prepare themselves.  The ubrest has not started here yet but it will.  Witht the massive debt that the government has accumilated and can not pay back, the will start cutting services.  First the powers will start laying off police and fire services, than social services and social security.  The worst things get the more the government will cut and the more they cut the worst it will get.  The only ones that will be protected and have anything are the politicians, becayse they will be the only ones with the money to purchase what they need.


----------



## Trajan

Foxfyre said:


> Axelrod: Obama 'Directly Confronted' Mubarak for Past 2 Years 'To Get Ahead of This'...



he did? I was wondering when the re-modeling would begin. 

Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:00am EDT

WASHINGTON Aug 18 (Reuters) - Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak visits Washington this week for the first time in six years for talks with U.S. President Barack Obama, who hopes to restart the Middle East peace process.

Here are some questions and answers about Mubarak's visit to the U.S. capital.

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE VISIT?

The visit is expected to warm Cairo's already improving relations with Washington, as the Obama administration looks to Egypt to help his push toward an Israeli-Palestinian peace plan and grapples with Iran's growing influence in the Middle East.

Egypt is a staunch regional ally of the United States, which has provided it with billions of dollars of military and other aid since it became the first Arab state to sign a peace deal with Israel in 1979.

But relations were chilled during the administration of Obama's predecessor, George W. Bush, over Bush's Middle East policies, invasion of Iraq and criticism of Egypt's human rights record.

Mubarak contrasts Obama favorably with Bush and the two leaders will now have met three times in as many months. On Tuesday, Obama holds a private meeting with Mubarak in the Oval Office, then an expanded meeting and a working lunch.

more at-

Q+A-Egypt's Mubarak visits Washington | Reuters


----------



## Samson

Bill Angel said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is it?  We're supporting the Egyptian government?  We're supporting the uprising?
> ...
> So are we making the same mistake now by undercutting the existing leadership of Egypt in hopes a democratic government will be installed? Or are the headlines suggesting we back the current leadership correct?  If the current leadership is ousted, history suggests that we may wind up with a worse devil unfriendly to the U.S. and hostile to Israel.
> 
> No wonder the world is watching with horror and intense interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since 1948 the USA has contributed 70 Billion dollars in foreign aid to Egypt.
> It's stunning to think it's possible that a change of regime in Egypt (in the near future) could lead to a repudiation of the total US investment/assistance to that country.
Click to expand...




Yes who would have imagined that our government could waste so much money.


----------



## EriktheRed

GHook93 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result:  World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> World War III will come and its will be much different than the 3 previous ones. Its will be Islam vs Christianity! I see it starting Europe, including Russia. There is a ginormous culture clash between the Native European and Muslims. Its the worst in Russia.
> (1) Russia:
> 25% and growing by leaps and bounds are Muslim in Russia. Ethnic violence is increasing 10 fold, esp with every Chechan terrorist attack. When Muslim population gets to 40% would could be as early as 2025. Serbian/Kosovo style genocidal war will be underway. The West, including America will sit by and allows this condemning it from the sidelines, because they don't want to risk a nuclear war with Russia. Muslims around the world will be outraged. Russia who is has more than enough oil reserves can't be effected by an oil embargo. In fact, Europe is reliant on them for oil and natural gas.
> 
> (2) China:
> For a while China has wanted to get rid of their pain in the butt Muslim separatist. Seeing how the West including the US did nothing to Russia. Then start their own ethnic cleansing campaign.
> 
> (3) Europe:
> The Muslim world gets more radical. They start to blame all Europeans for the slaughter of Muslims in Russia and China. They demand more thinks like Sharia law. Ethnic violence becomes rambid..
> 
> (4) Muslims Nuclear Sneak Attack:
> Islamofacist develop nukes with the assistance of Pakistan, Nuclear Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Jordan, Libya, Tunsia, Saudi Arabia and Egypt (all these countries developed the bomb after Iran was allowed to develop one in 2012). Nuclear suicide bombs smack the West, China and Russia hard!
> 
> (5) Then the War is on
Click to expand...


Maybe you can hook up with this guy:


Michigan Cops: Army Vet Threatened Mosques At Bar, Found With Explosives Outside Islamic Center | TPMMuckraker


----------



## Foxfyre

Non sequitur much, Erik?

It was interesting watching some of the commentary from Hillary Clinton to John Bolton and others who are in the midst of this situation or who have special expertise in evaluating it.

Even some of the mainstream media is now looking at some right moves made by President Bush--some the same moves our apologist in chief apologized for on his worldwide apology tour in 2009.

The Investors' Daily isn't a 100% objective source, but here they are condensing the rhetoric I am hearing bits and pieces from in a lot of places the last couple of days:



> Editorial: Will Obama Lose Egypt?
> 01/28/2011
> 
> An Ally Imperiled: What Egyptians are demonstrating against, whether they know it or not, is socialism. What they  and we  could end up with is another Iran. Is President Obama repeating Carter's Shah betrayal?
> 
> Revolutions are like fires. They can make life better, or they can destroy.
> 
> Three decades ago, Iran  after being saved from Soviet dominance by the U.S. in 1953  traded in the flawed autocratic rule of the Shah for the bloodthirsty Islamist fanaticism of the Ayatollah Khomeini.
> 
> At the time, Jimmy Carter's presidency was, in the name of "human rights," on the side of the Islamists  with U.N. Ambassador Andrew Young going so far as to call Khomeini "some kind of saint."
> 
> Does the Obama administration realize the difference between freedom-based revolutions and violent overthrows that will help jihadists?
> 
> In 2009, the Egyptian daily Almasry Alyoum reported that President Obama secretly met in Washington that year with representatives of Egypt's jihadist Muslim Brotherhood, the Hamas ally that, while banned, dominates the opposition in the country.
> 
> Obama also chose Egypt as the locale for his ill-conceived Muslim outreach speech in June 2009.
> 
> As Newsweek's Jonathan Alter points out in his White House-friendly book on the president's first year, "The Promise," "Obama never said the words 'terrorism,' 'terrorist,' or 'war on terror'" in the speech, because "the t-word had become inflammatory to Muslims" and the "faster way to the hearts and minds of a Muslim audience was to talk about the tensions between Islam and the West in a different key."
> 
> Bet the president didn't think he was planting the seeds of today's protests in Egypt. But what does he expect when he goes to a country in a decades-long police-enforced state of emergency, with tens of thousands of political prisoners, and announces that "you must maintain your power through consent, not coercion"?
> 
> He may have awakened a sleeping giant. Too bad the Iranian people didn't receive the same favor a year and a half ago when they were protesting in the streets against a regime that makes Egypt look Jeffersonian by comparison.
> More here:
> Editorial: Will Obama Lose Egypt? - Investors.com



Because a huge percentage of crude oil passes through the Suez Canal in order to avoid the alternate 10,000 mile trip to the West, unrest in Egypt or anywhere in the Middle East that could threaten that waterway always sends oil prices higher.  We're looking at possible $100/barrel oil this week and corresponding $4/gallon gasoline.

But most importantly, Egypt is the strongest Arab ally the USA and the West and Israel have in the Middle East,  If it goes the way of Iran and becomes hostile to the West and/or Irsael, the possibility of war is escalated.

Will Obama make the same mistake Carter made and lose Egypt as Carter lost Iran?


----------



## Foxfyre

The mess in Egypt and elsewhere has been somewhat eclipsed by the big storm today, but nevertheless the beat goes on via headlines from Drudge today:



> Mubarak vows to hang on until election...
> 
> TODAY: 'Obama urges Mubarak not to run again'...
> 
> SUNDAY: Hillary says 'We're not advocating any specific outcome'...
> 
> Muslim B'hood: 'Prepare for war with Israel'...
> 
> Netanyahu fears Islamist takeover...
> 
> Fistfights, police demanding bribes at jammed Cairo airport...
> 
> 'It's an absolute zoo'...
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tunisia synagogue set on fire by arsonists...
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> IMF WARNS OF WAR...



This really is a big deal everybody, because if ANYBODY attacks Israel and Israel asks for help, we are bound by treaty to assist.

And then it is anybody's guess who - or how many nations - would become involved.


----------



## Ropey

I keep saying that the possibility could be quite good. These are young and intelligent people who have to spend almost half their income (if they work) for food.  

This is why Mubaraks new appointee mentioned grain lines. I see a very good chance for a secular outcome. Look at all the reporters.  Look at the place. 

It looks very good to this old man.


----------



## Foxfyre

Ropey said:


> I keep saying that the possibility could be quite good. These are young and intelligent people who have to spend almost half their income (if they work) for food.
> 
> This is why Mubaraks new appointee mentioned grain lines. I see a very good chance for a secular outcome. Look at all the reporters.  Look at the place.
> 
> It looks very good to this old man.



I hope you're right Ropey.

This morning there were mixed messages coming out of Egypt, but the scuttlebutt was that Mubarek had agreed to go ahead and step down.  And he would turn the government over to a high ranking group in the military rather than to anybody in the existing government?   This is very much in opposition to the Egyptian constitution.

So it's anybody's guess what it means if this in fact happens.


----------



## rikules

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.



that's some god you've got....

KNOWS that the world is going to fall apart

KNOWS that millions/billions will suffer and die


yet won't lift a finger to help?


what is he, too busy helping green bay beat pittsburgh to bother with death and destruction?

what an irresponsible lazy shiftless ruthless rotten god you've got

I hope he burns in his own hell


----------



## Foxfyre

If ya'll could fight out the God issue on some other thread, I would really, REALLY appreciate it.

Meanwhile, I'm going to keep bumping this thread until the crisis passes or we move to the next phase, whichever comes first.

According to experts on TV tonight--and I do question whether some of them know any more than anybody else re this stuff--tomorrow will be the day it all comes to a head one way or the other.

The question is, if the people physically threaten those in government, will the military side with them?  Or with the government.


----------



## Foxfyre

Okay, as of this morning, the Egyptian military has accomplished a mostly bloodless coup, or at least Mubarek has relinquished the reins of government to military leaders.

The early announcements have been that those military leaders pledge to honor the peace treaty with Israel.  But as we have seen again and again, 'early announcements' often turn out to be not all that reliable.

The Muslim Brotherhood is still there and is not ruled out as a factor in the next elections whether those will be in September as previously planned or will be stepped up due to circumstances.

I wish I felt we were out of the woods on this one.  But I don't have much confidence yet.


----------



## BenMarbleMD

FYI-WWIII is a HOLY WAR with the JudeoChristians vs. Islam and it began on 091101


----------



## Foxfyre

BenMarbleMD said:


> FYI-WWIII is a HOLY WAR with the JudeoChristians vs. Islam and it began on 091101



That perhaps is a component in the worldwide unrest that we seem to be experiencing.  Maybe it has always been this way with parts of the world in disarray and in turmoil--maybe we just get faster and better news reporting now, but it just seems to be more widespread. 

I am not convinced that the Egypt situation is resolved yet.  And now there are protests in Iran again.

For good?  Or not?

I'm watching.


----------



## Foxfyre

Today. . . .

Protesters are still milling around in Egypt wondering what happens next.
New protests in Bahrain and Tehran.
A mini war of its own brewing in Wisconsin has the media's full attention today.


----------



## GHook93

BenMarbleMD said:


> FYI-WWIII is a HOLY WAR with the JudeoChristians vs. Islam and it began on 091101



I think Ben is right. I think 9/11 was the starting point. But it will get to full out war over the next 10 years. The ever growing Muslim minority throughout Europe, Russia and India are becoming more belligerent! The Arab nations with moderate yet corrupt leaders are getting tossed out and will soon be replaced with Islamic Iranian type leaders. Soon Iran will get the bomb. Shortly after that Egypt, Turkey, Ironically Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, Morocco etc will have the bomb. 

The Muslims minority in Europe, Russia, China and India will keep screaming we are being repressed. We are being repressed. It won't be time before one of these rogue Muslim nations gives the bomb to a sleeper cell in Europe, Russia, China or India and then bomb! I just hope obama is NOT the President when the first bomb goes off!


----------



## Foxfyre

So if we go with the perception that WWIII is to be a radical Islamofacist Muslim war against the rest of us, who wins?

And which side do peaceful Muslims join, if any?


----------



## GHook93

Foxfyre said:


> So if we go with the perception that WWIII is to be a radical Islamofacist Muslim war against the rest of us, who wins?


The West of course! 



Foxfyre said:


> And which side do peaceful Muslims join, if any?


Which side did the peaceful Germans and Japanese fight on?

Athough this war will be different it will be a Holy War!


----------



## Ropey

I hope and pray that the Egyptians concentrate on raising living standards, raising employment and enjoying freedoms.

Yet the problem remains, that there is no money for improving the economy and there is more likely to be frustration than prosperity. Middle East governments that cannot deliver the goods provide scapegoats instead.

I pray, but I see the works on the ground. Right now, it's movement all over.  Saudi Arabia sees the Shia in Yemen and Bahrain creating a crab-like encroachment and is heavily in motion in the arena. As is Iran who is also on the move. Iran has been somewhat shackled in attack outside of its borders, but now it's got some real free rein in the arena and I believe weapons in Syria are now being transferred to Lebanon.

Israel is in between a Shia and Sunni Movement.  This is why Sunni Man is against the Bahrain uprising and the Yemeni uprising. 

That's the Shia majority (Iran) in both countries and in a Democracy, that's the end of Sunni control of both countries. Iran still has a seat in its parliament for the 'recalcitrant' Bahrain to re-enter. 

So, a world war?  Not to my view. A middle east war? Likely sooner or later something will erupt now that the controls are off the spigots and the vast population increases in the last thirty years of Western payments can not be supported by the Arab countries.  

Why no problems in Syria?  

Syria&#8217;s population is predominantly Sunni, but the backbone of the regime is drawn from the minority Alawite community, an offshoot of the Shiite sect. Many do not know this. Deaths will come swiftly to any uprising there.  This is why Iran and Syria are partners.


----------



## Foxfyre

GHook93 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if we go with the perception that WWIII is to be a radical Islamofacist Muslim war against the rest of us, who wins?
> 
> 
> 
> The West of course!
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> And which side do peaceful Muslims join, if any?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which side did the peaceful Germans and Japanese fight on?
> 
> Athough this war will be different it will be a Holy War!
Click to expand...


I wonder if the West will win if it cannot shake its current namby pamby politically correct views on how war must be conducted?

And as for the peaceful Muslims, I suspect some would take up arms with the West if the choice was fight or lose their freedoms.  I would guess many would hide their faces and pray for an outcome that did not destroy us all.

Israel affords full citizenship status to all its citizens including the minority Arab population.  But it does exempt Arab citizens from mandatory military service.  I think that is probably wise rather than subject Arabs to mandatory violence against other Arabs which has been inevitable in the past and no doubt will be again.


----------



## Foxfyre

Iranian warships are moving through the Suez Canal in the last 24 hours and will be anchoring off the Israeli coast.  This has not happened since the 1970's and would not have happened if Mubarek was still in power in Egypt.  But no one is lifting a finger to stop it now.

What does this mean?


----------



## Ropey

Foxfyre said:


> Iranian warships are moving through the Suez Canal in the last 24 hours and will be anchoring off the Israeli coast.  This has not happened since the 1970's and would not have happened if Mubarek was still in power in Egypt.  But no one is lifting a finger to stop it now.
> 
> What does this mean?



So far, nothing as they are still 'delayed'.
*
Passage of Iran ships through Suez delayed by 48 hours*

Iran is attempting to provoke Israel. Just as Turkey did with their "Peace" flotilla. 

But when they have nuclear devices?


----------



## Foxfyre

Ropey said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian warships are moving through the Suez Canal in the last 24 hours and will be anchoring off the Israeli coast.  This has not happened since the 1970's and would not have happened if Mubarek was still in power in Egypt.  But no one is lifting a finger to stop it now.
> 
> What does this mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far, nothing as they are still 'delayed'.
> *
> Passage of Iran ships through Suez delayed by 48 hours*
> 
> Iran is attempting to provoke Israel. Just as Turkey did with their "Peace" flotilla.
> 
> But when they have nuclear devices?
Click to expand...


Ah, I haven't caught up with today's news since early this morning.  At that time the warships were making their way through the Canal.


----------



## Foxfyre

Still watching the Iranian warships that are still in the Suez Canal.

Forgot to mention that there are public protests going on now in Lybia.  Gadhafy's son says they will fight to the last bullet to save the government if they are forced into civil war.  That sounds pretty serious, but admittedly I don't know this guy and that could be the way he orders breakfast.

Protests continue in Tehran and Bahrain.

And now there is a 'warship' shadowing a Somali pirate ship that supposedly has four Americans captive on it.  The nationality of the 'warship' with a helicopter on its deck has not been announced.  The U.S. State Dept. isn't talking.  If the ship is American and there are hostilities. . . .


----------



## SFC Ollie

Foxfyre said:


> Still watching the Iranian warships that are still in the Suez Canal.
> 
> Forgot to mention that there are public protests going on now in Lybia.  Gadhafy's son says they will fight to the last bullet to save the government if they are forced into civil war.  That sounds pretty serious, but admittedly I don't know this guy and that could be the way he orders breakfast.
> 
> Protests continue in Tehran and Bahrain.
> 
> And now there is a 'warship' shadowing a Somali pirate ship that supposedly has four Americans captive on it.  The nationality of the 'warship' with a helicopter on its deck has not been announced.  The U.S. State Dept. isn't talking.  If the ship is American and there are hostilities. . . .



I thought we killed Gaddafi's son years ago, I guess he had more than one.


----------



## HUGGY

It's high time we put an end to the Somali Pirates.  The state department needs to drop leaflets all over the coast of that pissant country explaining that if the hostages are not ALL released forth with AND the violators are not handed over immediately that ALL Somali powered watercraft will be sunk wherever they are found until they have nothing to go into the ocean with than a rowboat. Give em a week to comply.

 If they do not fully comply if I was Obama I would order the Navy to start at one end of Somalia and travel the whole coast going from harbor to harbor and destroy ALL vessels capable of perpetrating these crimes.  If they kill any hostages shell ALL their coastal towns to cinders.  

If the world press complains...too bad.  I don't give a rat's ass.  We pay for a Navy to protect Americans.  Fucking USE IT!


----------



## Douger

This thread says we need a pole shift.


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> It's high time we put an end to the Somali Pirates.  The state department needs to drop leaflets all over the coast of that pissant country explaining that if the hostages are not ALL released forth with AND the violators are not handed over immediately that ALL Somali powered watercraft will be sunk wherever they are found until they have nothing to go into the ocean with than a rowboat. Give em a week to comply.
> 
> If they do not fully comply if I was Obama I would order the Navy to start at one end of Somalia and travel the whole coast going from harbor to harbor and destroy ALL vessels capable of perpetrating these crimes.  If they kill any hostages shell ALL their coastal towns to cinders.
> 
> If the world press complains...too bad.  I don't give a rat's ass.  We pay for a Navy to protect Americans.  Fucking USE IT!



   Well, while I emotionally connect with your point here, rationally I think the more practical solution is to just leave Somalia alone, put out a travel bulletin for Americans to avoid that area, and warn Somalia that if any of their ships threaten an America outside of international waters it will be sunk.   And there will be no more U.S. aid or trade with Somalia until they can guarantee safety to all Americans there.  That should take care of it without having to sink the fishing fleet too.


----------



## Foxfyre

SFC Ollie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still watching the Iranian warships that are still in the Suez Canal.
> 
> Forgot to mention that there are public protests going on now in Lybia.  Gadhafy's son says they will fight to the last bullet to save the government if they are forced into civil war.  That sounds pretty serious, but admittedly I don't know this guy and that could be the way he orders breakfast.
> 
> Protests continue in Tehran and Bahrain.
> 
> And now there is a 'warship' shadowing a Somali pirate ship that supposedly has four Americans captive on it.  The nationality of the 'warship' with a helicopter on its deck has not been announced.  The U.S. State Dept. isn't talking.  If the ship is American and there are hostilities. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought we killed Gaddafi's son years ago, I guess he had more than one.
Click to expand...


We did inadvertently kill one of his kids in a bombing raid following a Lybian terrorist attack on a bar where Americans congregated.  Reagan had warned them and he was the type to follow through and did.   And that did a tremendous amount of good as we didn't hear squat from Lybia after that.

I do think that terrorists and international bullies do not respond to kindness, reason, forgiveness or any of the normal human virtues.  But they do understand obliteration and generally back off when their choice is to back off or be obliterated.


----------



## HUGGY

Foxfyre said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still watching the Iranian warships that are still in the Suez Canal.
> 
> Forgot to mention that there are public protests going on now in Lybia.  Gadhafy's son says they will fight to the last bullet to save the government if they are forced into civil war.  That sounds pretty serious, but admittedly I don't know this guy and that could be the way he orders breakfast.
> 
> Protests continue in Tehran and Bahrain.
> 
> And now there is a 'warship' shadowing a Somali pirate ship that supposedly has four Americans captive on it.  The nationality of the 'warship' with a helicopter on its deck has not been announced.  The U.S. State Dept. isn't talking.  If the ship is American and there are hostilities. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought we killed Gaddafi's son years ago, I guess he had more than one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We did inadvertently kill one of his kids in a bombing raid following a Lybian terrorist attack on a bar where Americans congregated.  Reagan had warned them and he was the type to follow through and did.   And that did a tremendous amount of good as we didn't hear squat from Lybia after that.
> 
> *I do think that terrorists and international bullies do not respond to kindness, reason, forgiveness or any of the normal human virtues.  But they do understand obliteration and generally back off when their choice is to back off or be obliterated.*
Click to expand...


And this cannot be applied to Somalia?


----------



## boedicca

Foxfyre said:


> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?




We're moving to WW IV - I would count the Cold War as III, given the consumption of resources to support it.


----------



## Foxfyre

The situation in Lybia is escalating, becoming ever more violent, and is taking some interesting twists:



> PARIS Feb 21 (Reuters) - A coalition of Libyan Muslim leaders has issued a declaration telling all Muslims it is their duty to rebel against the Libyan leadership.
> 
> "They have demonstrated total arrogant impunity and continued, and even intensified, their bloody crimes against humanity. They have thereby demonstrated total infidelity to the guidance of God and His beloved Prophet (peace be upon him)," said the group, called the Network of Free Ulema of Libya.
> 
> "This renders them undeserving of any obedience or support, and makes rebelling against them by all means possible a divinely ordained duty," the group said in a declaration obtained by Reuters on Monday.
> Libyan Muslim leaders order followers to rebel | Reuters



And in the light of strange alliances--we already know Hugo Chavez is friendly with the Iranian government--there is this:



> (Reuters) - The government of President Hugo Chavez denied on Monday reports Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi was traveling to Venezuela following violent protests in the fellow OPEC member nation.
> 
> Attracted to Gaddafi's revolutionary past, the socialist Chavez also casts himself as an anti-U.S. stalwart on the international stage, and the pair enjoy warm ties.
> 
> Adding to media rumors, British Foreign Secretary William Hague said earlier on Monday he had seen information to suggest Gaddafi had fled Libya and was on his way to the South American oil-exporting nation.
> 
> Venezuela denies Libya's Gaddafi en route | Reuters



And I think we can see a spike in oil futures shortly. . . 



> Libyan tribe threatens to cut oil exports soon
> Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:43pm GMT
> Print | Single Page[-] Text [+] TRIPOLI Feb 20 (Reuters) - The leader of the Al-Zuwayya tribe in eastern Libya threatened on Sunday to cut oil exports to Western countries within 24 hours unless authorities stop what he called the "oppression of protesters".
> Speaking to Al Jazeera, Shaikh Faraj al Zuway said: "We will stop oil exports to Western countries within 24 hours" if the violence did not stop.
> 
> The tribe lives south of Benghazi, which has seen the worst of the deadly violence in recent days.
> Libyan tribe threatens to cut oil exports soon | Agricultural Commodities | Reuters
> 
> and this. . .
> FRANKFURT/LONDON (Reuters)  Spreading unrest in Libya shut down 6 percent of oil output in Africa's No.3 producer and prompted a number of energy firms to pull out international staff, sending oil prices above $105 a barrel.
> 
> Wintershall, the oil and gas exploration arm of BASF (BASFn.DE) said on Monday it was winding down Libyan oil production of as much as 100,000 barrels per day (bpd). Other companies, including Royal Dutch Shell (RDSa.L), ENI (ENI.MI) and
> Libya unrest stops some oil output, firms move staff - Yahoo! News



And it is possible that the military is defecting:



> The pilots of two Libyan military jets that landed in Malta on Monday are "senior colonels" who were ordered to bomb protesters, Al Jazeera satellite network reports.
> 
> The colonels say they refused to bomb protesters demonstrating against Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi and instead defected to Malta, according to Al Jazeera reporter Karl Stagno-Novarra in Malta.
> 
> The pilots reportedly told Maltese officials they were based in Tripoli and ordered to attack protesters in Benghazi.  After seeing fellow pilots begin bombing, the colonels changed course and headed for Malta, according to Al Jazeera.
> LIBYA: Colonels defected to Malta rather than bomb protesters | Babylon & Beyond | Los Angeles Times



So if the Gadhafy government is overthrown, what do we get?  Something more like democracy?    Or another militant Muslim theocracy?


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought we killed Gaddafi's son years ago, I guess he had more than one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We did inadvertently kill one of his kids in a bombing raid following a Lybian terrorist attack on a bar where Americans congregated.  Reagan had warned them and he was the type to follow through and did.   And that did a tremendous amount of good as we didn't hear squat from Lybia after that.
> 
> *I do think that terrorists and international bullies do not respond to kindness, reason, forgiveness or any of the normal human virtues.  But they do understand obliteration and generally back off when their choice is to back off or be obliterated.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And this cannot be applied to Somalia?
Click to expand...


Not sure Huggy.  It isn't the Somalian government that is doing the piracy when it was almost certainly the Lybian government ordering the terrorism.  So I don't know if the same criteria applies but it would give the Somalian government incentive to do something about the pirates if we got a lot tougher.


----------



## Foxfyre

boedicca said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're moving to WW IV - I would count the Cold War as III, given the consumption of resources to support it.
Click to expand...


I tend to agree, but since the cold war didn't get the actual title, I think we're stuck with WWIII at the moment.


----------



## Richard-H

Foxfyre said:


> I do think that terrorists and international bullies do not respond to kindness, reason, forgiveness or any of the normal human virtues.  But they do understand obliteration and generally back off when their choice is to back off or be obliterated.



Funny, but that's how a lot of us feel about the Governor of Wisconson right now...


----------



## HUGGY

Foxfyre said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> We did inadvertently kill one of his kids in a bombing raid following a Lybian terrorist attack on a bar where Americans congregated.  Reagan had warned them and he was the type to follow through and did.   And that did a tremendous amount of good as we didn't hear squat from Lybia after that.
> 
> *I do think that terrorists and international bullies do not respond to kindness, reason, forgiveness or any of the normal human virtues.  But they do understand obliteration and generally back off when their choice is to back off or be obliterated.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this cannot be applied to Somalia?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not sure Huggy.  It isn't the Somalian government that is doing the piracy when it was almost certainly the Lybian government ordering the terrorism.  So I don't know if the same criteria applies but it would give the Somalian government incentive to do something about the pirates if we got a lot tougher.
Click to expand...


Well... The Afghan government didn't send the 9/11 perpetrators either.  Neither did the Taliban.  It seems to me we are punishing the Taliban quite rightly for providing safe haven for Al Quaida much like the Somalis are providing for these TERRORISTS.  How many of these hijackings and kidnappings does it take for them to be OFFICIALLY designated terrorists?  Why would we be afraid to defend Americans ANYWHERE on the planet?  Has the Taliban threatened America?  If anything the price of oil is certainly rising because there is a threat to oil shipping there.  I say clean the rat fuckers out.  They seem to be a bigger and more real threat to American interests than a bunch of rag head fundamentalists out in the mountains of South West Asia.


----------



## Foxfyre

Richard-H said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do think that terrorists and international bullies do not respond to kindness, reason, forgiveness or any of the normal human virtues.  But they do understand obliteration and generally back off when their choice is to back off or be obliterated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, but that's how a lot of us feel about the Governor of Wisconson right now...
Click to expand...


Well a lot more of us see him as a hero and a man of courage and principle.

But that too is one of the points of unrest in the world today, and we can only hope that right and virtue emerges the victor.  And that means the unions won't get their way on this one.

In the case of Wisconsin, I have no problem picking a side.

In some of these other conflicts, I am torn as I don't want to oust the devil we know in favor of a worse devil as we did with Iran back in the seventies.

Huggy's observations in Afghanistan merit consideration.  I don't know whether I will agree with him, but he does have me thinking about and considering his point of view.


----------



## boedicca

Richard-H said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do think that terrorists and international bullies do not respond to kindness, reason, forgiveness or any of the normal human virtues.  But they do understand obliteration and generally back off when their choice is to back off or be obliterated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, but that's how a lot of us feel about the Governor of Wisconson right now...
Click to expand...



Funny, that's exactly what a lot of us would expect you foaming at the mouth moonbats to feel.  Your moral relativism is beyond disgusting.


----------



## Trajan

since my reply of 01-28-2011, 06:32 PM that said I think we are in 1933.....

due to several issues, the salient ones being; hezbollahs final push to take control in Lebanon, Egypts "change", Kims regime carrying on into a new generation, I am advancing my time line to 1934.


----------



## Ropey

Trajan said:


> since my reply of 01-28-2011, 06:32 PM that said I think we are in 1933.....
> 
> due to several issues, the salient ones being; hezbollahs final push to take control in Lebanon, Egypts "change", Kims regime carrying on into a new generation, I am advancing my time line to 1934.



Very close, but you may need a bit more advancing by a few years.


----------



## HUGGY

The Somali pirates/terrorists killed the four Americans.


----------



## Foxfyre

I saw that on the news this morning Huggy and felt great sadness.  And deep anger.  They showed the photos of the four people and they looked like nice people--somebody's moms, dads, brothers, sisters, etc.  And they were saying that the yacht these folks were on was something like 300 miles out when the pirates intercepted them--well away from Somalia.  Those are dangerous waters these days, and your idea of just obliterating the whole mess feels real good in the face of such senseless murder.

Noted that the situation in Lybia and Yemen are escalating and becoming ever more serious and the Iranian warships are on the move again headed off the Israeli coast eventually to make port in Syria.

When you look at all the myriad countries in turmoil right now, it does make one wonder.


----------



## Foxfyre

Add the threatened NFL strike to the overall turmoil.  Not violent or dangerous but certainly indicative of the times when multi millionaires strike for a better deal?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah

SFC Ollie said:


> We obviously should start thinking about pulling troops back to defensible borders....
> 
> Ya just never know.....



Borders = injustice and racism.


----------



## mal

Foxfyre said:


> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power.  Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result:  World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest.  Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?



The End of Days is upon us...

One of the First Signs was Mama Mia. 



peace...


----------



## Foxfyre

at Mal.

Morning news:  Violence escalating in Lybia and protests continuing in Yeman, Iran, Bahrain and Jordan--quieter in Egypt but the protesters have not yet all gone home.  Iranian warships continue through the canal to the Mediterranean where presumably they will head for Syria for some cooperative 'war games' that Israel sees as provocative.  We apparently are going to do nothing re the pirates murdering Americans.

Obama and his Secretary of State seem pretty impotent in all this.

There are new riots in Greece, recently bailed out by the USA and EU when it went totally bankrupt, because it is now trying to balance the budget by cutting back on social entitlements and the people are screaming.

And on the domestic front New Jersey, Indiana, and Ohio are on the front pages along with Wisconsin and Arizona is making the first daring move to deny social services--jobs, drivers' licenses, education etc.--to illegal immigrants and that is almost certain to generate huge new protests.

The market is nervous over oil prices and supply, but seems to be responding favorably to the radical efforts toward fiscal sanity.

Interesting times. . . . .


----------



## hipeter924

Depends whether particular nations develop monopolies on resources, and how much they charge for them. As for domestic economies, the police and the military will enforce order or if incapable then a revolution and more than likely a more brutal regime in power will result. But I don't see global economic collapse just yet.


----------



## Foxfyre

hipeter924 said:


> Depends whether particular nations develop monopolies on resources, and how much they charge for them. As for domestic economies, the police and the military will enforce order or if incapable then a revolution and more than likely a more brutal regime in power will result. But I don't see global economic collapse just yet.



Well now let's think about that for a minute.

IF, Islamic jihadist fundamenalists determined to destroy the evil infidel of the West should take control of all or most of the Middle East oil fields and withhold that oil to intentionally collapse western economies, what would be our response to that?

Which side would other powers such as Russia and China take?

One reason so many eyes are on the unrest in Egypt and Jordan right now is that those are the ONLY Middle East nations that are friendly toward Israel.  If they should withdraw that support and more especially turn against Israel--a distinct possibility if Islamic Jihadist Fundamentalist seize control in those countries, the Arab world may see that as opportunity to finally rid themselves of the "abomination" that they see Israel to be.

If that should happen, who would support the assault of Israel?

And who would come to its defense?

And when you think about the ramifications of that, World War III doesn't look so implausible anymore.l


----------



## SFC Ollie

Let's just hope and pray that if the shit really hits the fan, that Obama allows the military to go do what they need to do without interference from the White House, Congress or the MSM.


----------



## Ropey

bucs90 said:


> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.



We are in year 5771 - 5772 out of the six millennium given. We have the date of the maximum. No more than six thousand years shall there be. But, it could be tomorrow. 



> According to the *Talmud*, the *Midrash*, and the Kabbalistic work, the *Zohar*, the 'deadline' by which the Messiah must appear is 6000 years from creation. A majority of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews believe that the Hebrew calendar dates back to the time of creation; the year 2009-2010 (the Hebrew New Year beings during September or October) of the Gregorian calendar corresponds to the Hebrew year 5771 - 5772.



Two things, Three Events:

*Huge solar flare jams radio, satellite signals: NASA*

and

Mubarak is in a coma: 

*Report: Mubarak in coma, no decision on move to hospital*

and:

Ben Ali deposed leader of Tunisia has also fallen into a coma:

'*Deposed Tunisian president is in a coma*'

At the very least, we are in interesting times.  The prophetic times will rush upon us like a windstorm.


----------



## Foxfyre

Tonight I was reading a piece that there are now protests in Saudi Arabia though of a more civil variety than what we are seeing in some other countries.  The Saudi King is funneling mega billions into health care, education, jobs, and infrastructure, but apparently the people are seeing that as another temporary fix and are not pleased with it.  They are wanting more freedom and ability to determine their own destiny--asking for a government more like what they have in Kuwait.


----------



## Ropey

Foxfyre said:


> Tonight I was reading a piece that there are now protests in Saudi Arabia though of a more civil variety than what we are seeing in some other countries.  The Saudi King is funneling mega billions into health care, education, jobs, and infrastructure, but apparently the people are seeing that as another temporary fix and are not pleased with it.  They are wanting more freedom and ability to determine their own destiny--asking for a government more like what they have in Kuwait.



Amazing times. I believe that any demands of the people on a government of their style of Democracy will keep them busy dealing with the needs and newer rights of their people.

An pan Arabian peace deal with Israel would be nice, but it sure looks as though that will not happen now. Letting Iran immediately through, before any real transitions have been made is a clear sign of leadership in control.  Plans within plans, whorls within whorls. I believe that the game is seriously afoot. Pieces are being moved in preparation.


----------



## Douger

Cain said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> World War 3? Well, if it does happen, I guess all I can say is, I'll be among the military members. I can't really say my feelings on it, I mean, if someone bombs the US and we find out it really was them, then let's do it, but honestly, I doubt that is how a major war will start. I understand people opposing it, but I personally do not claim to know whether we are better off without a conflict or not. I just hope the economy can get better for the common man. I have NO idea about economics, I took Honors Economics last semester and that consisted of 'self-finance' basically teaching kids how to not screw themselves with credit cards, which anyone with common sense (at least too me) should know how NOT to do.
> 
> I hope that the world changes, I would not want to start a family in this economy, but I also know I am going to do my best to be the best for the country I was born & raised in. My opinion is this: What happens, happens, and all I can say is I am doing my best to educate myself, and learn from others, and better myself daily. I know it sounds corny, but that is the best I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your best is almost certainly more than most people even attempt to give, and thank you for your service.
> 
> My hope is that people like you won't be thrown away or sacrificed or put at risk for anything that you would not choose to fight for whether or not you are in the military.  And I would feel completely blessed and at peace if I could see a world that intercepted and stopped the bad guys before they could create chaos and our young men and women would never need to be put at risk in war again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, to be honest, my contract says I will follow orders, and that is all I know to do at this point. I mean, if they tell me to go in and attack a nation, I will, and I only have hope it is for the right reasons. I may sound like a robot or something, but frankly, that's how I see it.
> 
> Thanks for thanking me, but I am just ready to ship out and get through Basic/Tech School and finally get to wear the Air Force ABU, that is going to be a moment in my life I'll never forget.
Click to expand...


And if they order you to bomb Houston or Chicago ? "Just following orders sir".
Idiot.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Foxfyre said:


> Tonight I was reading a piece that there are now protests in Saudi Arabia though of a more civil variety than what we are seeing in some other countries.  The Saudi King is funneling mega billions into health care, education, jobs, and infrastructure, but apparently the people are seeing that as another temporary fix and are not pleased with it.  They are wanting more freedom and ability to determine their own destiny--asking for a government more like what they have in Kuwait.



If I remember right they actually do have localized elections in Saudi. Up to and including Mayors and certain regional Government positions.


----------



## Foxfyre

It's probably an isolated event, but add to the puzzle that a Saudi college student was arrested for plans to blow up former President Bush's Dallas home among other things.



> WASHINGTON -- A young college student from Saudi Arabia studying chemical engineering in Texas purchased explosive chemicals over the Internet as part of a plan to hide bomb materials inside dolls and baby carriages to blow up dams, nuclear plants or the Dallas home of former President George W. Bush, the Justice Department said Thursday.
> 
> "It is war ... until the infidels leave defeated," the student wrote in online postings.
> 
> One of the chemical companies, Carolina Biological Supply of Burlington, N.C., reported suspicious purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari, 20, of Lubbock, Texas, to the FBI on Feb. 1. Within weeks, federal agents had traced his other online purchases, discovered extremist posts he made on the Internet and secretly searched his apartment, computer and e-mail accounts and read his diary, according to court records.
> 
> Saudi Student Charged With Plotting to Bomb Bush House


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> It's probably an isolated event, but add to the puzzle that a Saudi college student was arrested for plans to blow up former President Bush's Dallas home among other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON -- A young college student from Saudi Arabia studying chemical engineering in Texas purchased explosive chemicals over the Internet as part of a plan to hide bomb materials inside dolls and baby carriages to blow up dams, nuclear plants or the Dallas home of former President George W. Bush, the Justice Department said Thursday.
> 
> "It is war ... until the infidels leave defeated," the student wrote in online postings.
> 
> One of the chemical companies, Carolina Biological Supply of Burlington, N.C., reported suspicious purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari, 20, of Lubbock, Texas, to the FBI on Feb. 1. Within weeks, federal agents had traced his other online purchases, discovered extremist posts he made on the Internet and secretly searched his apartment, computer and e-mail accounts and read his diary, according to court records.
> 
> Saudi Student Charged With Plotting to Bomb Bush House
Click to expand...


Gee, I wonder what made chemical purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari "suspicious?"




Seems to me Mssr. Aldawsari has grounds for a Civil Law Suite Against Carolina Biological Supply !!!!  UNFAIR AND BIAS PROFILING!!!

WHERE IS THE ACLU!!!!!


----------



## Ropey

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> *It's probably an isolated event*, but add to the puzzle that a Saudi college student was arrested for plans to blow up former President Bush's Dallas home among other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON -- A young college student from Saudi Arabia studying chemical engineering in Texas purchased explosive chemicals over the Internet as part of a plan to hide bomb materials inside dolls and baby carriages to blow up dams, nuclear plants or the Dallas home of former President George W. Bush, the Justice Department said Thursday.
> 
> "It is war ... until the infidels leave defeated," the student wrote in online postings.
> 
> One of the chemical companies, Carolina Biological Supply of Burlington, N.C., reported suspicious purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari, 20, of Lubbock, Texas, to the FBI on Feb. 1. Within weeks, federal agents had traced his other online purchases, discovered extremist posts he made on the Internet and secretly searched his apartment, computer and e-mail accounts and read his diary, according to court records.
> 
> Saudi Student Charged With Plotting to Bomb Bush House
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Gee, I wonder what made chemical purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari "suspicious?"*
> 
> 
> 
> *Seems to me Mssr. Aldawsari has grounds for a Civil Law Suite Against Carolina Biological Supply !!!!  UNFAIR AND BIAS PROFILING!!!
> 
> WHERE IS THE ACLU!!!!!*
Click to expand...


For those who do not get sarcasm. 

@ FoxFyre

When do so many isolated event not get compiled? 

To keep them seen as isolated maybe?


----------



## SFC Ollie

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's probably an isolated event, but add to the puzzle that a Saudi college student was arrested for plans to blow up former President Bush's Dallas home among other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON -- A young college student from Saudi Arabia studying chemical engineering in Texas purchased explosive chemicals over the Internet as part of a plan to hide bomb materials inside dolls and baby carriages to blow up dams, nuclear plants or the Dallas home of former President George W. Bush, the Justice Department said Thursday.
> 
> "It is war ... until the infidels leave defeated," the student wrote in online postings.
> 
> One of the chemical companies, Carolina Biological Supply of Burlington, N.C., reported suspicious purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari, 20, of Lubbock, Texas, to the FBI on Feb. 1. Within weeks, federal agents had traced his other online purchases, discovered extremist posts he made on the Internet and secretly searched his apartment, computer and e-mail accounts and read his diary, according to court records.
> 
> Saudi Student Charged With Plotting to Bomb Bush House
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gee, I wonder what made chemical purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari "suspicious?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me Mssr. Aldawsari has grounds for a Civil Law Suite Against Carolina Biological Supply !!!!  UNFAIR AND BIAS PROFILING!!!
> 
> WHERE IS THE ACLU!!!!!
Click to expand...



Don't give them any Ideas.


----------



## Foxfyre

I bet the ACLU is looking for some way to capitalize on it.


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> I bet the ACLU is looking for some way to capitalize on it.



Why didn't Carolina Biological Supply think that purchases by Mr. Smith, or Mrs. Jones were "suspicious?"

I think they should be required to submit all of their sales records for the past 20 years so we can do a statistical review that proves conclusively the company is bias against Arabs.

It shouldn't cost them more than $2-3 million, but its a small price to pay to maintain our civil liberties.


----------



## Foxfyre

Ropey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> *It's probably an isolated event*, but add to the puzzle that a Saudi college student was arrested for plans to blow up former President Bush's Dallas home among other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Gee, I wonder what made chemical purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari "suspicious?"*
> 
> 
> 
> *Seems to me Mssr. Aldawsari has grounds for a Civil Law Suite Against Carolina Biological Supply !!!!  UNFAIR AND BIAS PROFILING!!!
> 
> WHERE IS THE ACLU!!!!!*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For those who do not get sarcasm.
> 
> @ FoxFyre
> 
> When do so many isolated event not get compiled?
> 
> To keep them seen as isolated maybe?
Click to expand...


Okay, it occurred to me that a single college kid working alone probably would not be doing this.  BUT. . . .without evidence that it is part of a larger plot, I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion.   I do think the feds probably are exploring that possibility though.

We know that there are many MANY such attempts going on out there.  Why this one got publicized and others don't, I don't know.  But I do know it is incidents like this that justify the Patriot Act and it is incidents like this that keep the Patriot Act one of the most bipartisan bills ever passed and both Democrats and Republicans voting to keep it funded.


----------



## Ropey

Foxfyre said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Gee, I wonder what made chemical purchases by Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari "suspicious?"*
> 
> 
> 
> *Seems to me Mssr. Aldawsari has grounds for a Civil Law Suite Against Carolina Biological Supply !!!!  UNFAIR AND BIAS PROFILING!!!
> 
> WHERE IS THE ACLU!!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those who do not get sarcasm.
> 
> @ FoxFyre
> 
> When do so many isolated event not get compiled?
> 
> To keep them seen as isolated maybe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, it occurred to me that a single college kid working alone probably would not be doing this.  BUT. . . .without evidence that it is part of a larger plot, I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion.   I do think the feds probably are exploring that possibility though.
> 
> We know that there are many MANY such attempts going on out there.  Why this one got publicized and others don't, I don't know.  But I do know it is incidents like this that justify the Patriot Act and it is incidents like this that keep the Patriot Act one of the most bipartisan bills ever passed and both Democrats and Republicans voting to keep it funded.
Click to expand...


Great answer. Thank you.  I don't see a global conspiracy personally. I see a cultural dis-convergence in the border wars. 

Since there is one factor continually popping up in all the other variables that are changing (with respect to the border wars) and this, to my view shows where the disconnect forms.


----------



## Binky

SFC Ollie said:


> We obviously should start thinking about pulling troops back to defensible borders....
> 
> Ya just never know.....



Well, you think it's time.  And I think it's time.  That makes two of us that are very unimportant in the scheme of things.  Unfornately, I don't think our gov't has any intentions of pulling out of anywhere.  Or of even thinning out the soldiers.  I believe we've stuck our noses into the business of so many nations that we think we are invincible and can do anything we wish.  We are a very arrogant country.  And for that we are hated by most.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Binky said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> We obviously should start thinking about pulling troops back to defensible borders....
> 
> Ya just never know.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you think it's time.  And I think it's time.  That makes two of us that are very unimportant in the scheme of things.  Unfornately, I don't think our gov't has any intentions of pulling out of anywhere.  Or of even thinning out the soldiers.  I believe we've stuck our noses into the business of so many nations that we think we are invincible and can do anything we wish.  We are a very arrogant country.  And for that we are hated by most.
Click to expand...


Arrogant maybe, Proud definitely, But hated by most? I don't think so.


----------



## Foxfyre

Binky said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> We obviously should start thinking about pulling troops back to defensible borders....
> 
> Ya just never know.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you think it's time.  And I think it's time.  That makes two of us that are very unimportant in the scheme of things.  Unfornately, I don't think our gov't has any intentions of pulling out of anywhere.  Or of even thinning out the soldiers.  I believe we've stuck our noses into the business of so many nations that we think we are invincible and can do anything we wish.  We are a very arrogant country.  And for that we are hated by most.
Click to expand...


Of all countries that people would choose if they wanted to live somewhere other than where they do live, the USA heads more lists than any other in the world.  The USA gets more applications for legal immigration and green cards than any other nation in the world.  The USA has more people sneaking into it illegally than any other country in the world.

Hated by most?   Not from my perspective.


----------



## Ringel05

World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?

Only if it coincides with Sybyl unrest.


----------



## hipeter924

Foxfyre said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends whether particular nations develop monopolies on resources, and how much they charge for them. As for domestic economies, the police and the military will enforce order or if incapable then a revolution and more than likely a more brutal regime in power will result. But I don't see global economic collapse just yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well now let's think about that for a minute.
> 
> IF, Islamic jihadist fundamenalists determined to destroy the evil infidel of the West should take control of all or most of the Middle East oil fields and withhold that oil to intentionally collapse western economies, what would be our response to that?
> 
> Which side would other powers such as Russia and China take?
> 
> One reason so many eyes are on the unrest in Egypt and Jordan right now is that those are the ONLY Middle East nations that are friendly toward Israel.  If they should withdraw that support and more especially turn against Israel--a distinct possibility if Islamic Jihadist Fundamentalist seize control in those countries, the Arab world may see that as opportunity to finally rid themselves of the "abomination" that they see Israel to be.
> 
> If that should happen, who would support the assault of Israel?
> 
> And who would come to its defense?
> 
> And when you think about the ramifications of that, World War III doesn't look so implausible anymore.l
Click to expand...


Response to oil shortage:

In the short term: global oil crisis 
In the long term: switch to biofuel, hydrogen and electric

Result of US withdrawal:

Russia and China will form a bloc, or Russia and Iran will form a bloc, in either case there would always be opposition to Iran and Islamic fundamentalism. It's rather naive for people to view the US withdrawal as the end of foreign influence on the region, merely replace one powerful nation with another (but Bin Laden, Michael Moore and friends can keep to their fantasy).

If US cuts financial support to Israel, UN sanctions imposed on Israel, and Islamic nations become more aggressive and violent:

Then extreme religious and extreme nationalist parties would take majority control of Knesset (the types of people that would just kick all the Pales out, and kill them all if they resist), at least with US support moderate and secular parties have power, if the anti-semite crowd got their wish and the US stopped supporting Israel, then the Pales and UN would be kicked out on their ass (and the Palestinian state nothing more than a dead fantasy no one believes in anymore). 

Personally my hope is that some day the arabs will realize that Fatah, Hamas and extreme parties in Israel are the problem, and that the atmosphere of fear and hate has done nothing more than harden hearts and make it impossible to reach a fear agreement. 

If the Pales, Arabs, Anti-Semites and crew removed Hamas and Fatah from power in favor of more secular parties*, and stopped hating on Israel for a few years they would find equally moderate and secular parties elected in Israel, the result being a formal peace, establishment of two states and most likely dual citizenship and land rights. 

*This will never happen of course as they hate Jews so much, and have fought wars and committed enough genocides against them over the centuries (dating back to the middle ages), and they couldn't conceive a world with Jews in existence.


----------



## editec

Foxfyre said:


> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power. Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result: World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest. Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?


 
WEll there are similarities between the turn of the 20th century and the turn of the 21st...

For example...*European nations were very economically interdependent,* yet they still managed to get themselves embroiled in a stipid STUPID war that ultimately detroyed the world's economy for nearly two decades.

And now, now that the economic interdependence includes most of the world, we find ourselves seemingly poised for another convulsion of stupid war.

Wars are often about TRADE. 

WWI certainly was the battle between the British, French, Austo-Hapburg and Romanov Empires to dominate world's trade and colonialization.

It isn't too much of a stretch to see something like that happening again, since once again, we are seeing rising mercantile empires (Asian) at odds with better established Western mercantile empires.

I don;t see anything on the horizon, but the stage is set for hostilities if the respective masters of these empries get especially stupid.


----------



## Samson

editec said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power. Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result: World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest. Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WEll there are similarities between the turn of the 20th century and the turn of the 21st...
> 
> For example...*European nations were very economically interdependent,* yet they still managed to get themselves embroiled in a stipid STUPID war that ultimately detroyed the world's economy for nearly two decades.
> 
> And now, now that the economic interdependence includes most of the world, we find ourselves seemingly poised for another convulsion of stupid war.
> 
> Wars are often about TRADE.
> 
> WWI certainly was the battle between the British, French, Austo-Hapburg and Romanov Empires to dominate world's trade and colonialization.
> 
> It isn't too much of a stretch to see something like that happening again, since once again, we are seeing rising mercantile empires (Asian) at odds with better established Western mercantile empires.
> 
> I don;t see anything on the horizon, but the stage is set for hostilities if the respective masters of these empries get especially stupid.
Click to expand...


"Respective Masters of these Empires?" Who would that be?

You've been playing too much Risk.


----------



## American Horse

Samson said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> A review of history in the early 20th century shows general civil unrest.
> 
> Widespread unemployment, unstable money supplies and other resources, and general disatisfaction with unresponsive authoritarian government led to increasing pockets of unrest in Europe, most especially Germany, in the Communist countries, and led to overthrow of governments resulting in even more oppressive regime seizing power. Economies were destablized; currencies were put at risk; and opportunistic nations looked for ways to capitalize on the unrest.
> 
> Result: World War I and World War II.
> 
> Now we see riots in Barcelona, in France, growing unrest in the UK, in Albania, and now in the Middle East with widespread government protests in Egypt and Jordan who, not insignificantly, are the only allies Israel has in that area.
> 
> Today oil is rising drastically and the markets are plunging as investors scramble to protect their assets in the fact of a possible civil war in Egypt alone.
> 
> And we have North Korea, China, Iran, Venezuela, and a few other places, all friendly to each other, and none the true friend of the Western World possibly looking for ways to capitalize on the unrest. Certainly Hamas and Hezbollah are watching and will likely make a move if they feel that world attention is diverted from Israel.
> 
> Are we moving to the brink of World War III?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WEll there are similarities between the turn of the 20th century and the turn of the 21st...
> 
> For example...*European nations were very economically interdependent,* yet they still managed to get themselves embroiled in a stipid STUPID war that ultimately detroyed the world's economy for nearly two decades.
> 
> And now, now that the economic interdependence includes most of the world, we find ourselves seemingly poised for another convulsion of stupid war.
> 
> Wars are often about TRADE.
> 
> WWI certainly was the battle between the British, French, Austo-Hapburg and Romanov Empires to dominate world's trade and colonialization.
> 
> It isn't too much of a stretch to see something like that happening again, since once again, we are seeing rising mercantile empires (Asian) at odds with better established Western mercantile empires.
> 
> I don;t see anything on the horizon, but the stage is set for hostilities if the respective masters of these empries get especially stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Respective Masters of these Empires?" Who would that be?
> 
> You've been playing too much Risk.
Click to expand...

My rough estimation of the cause of WW-I (the best approximate commparable) is that there were at that historical moment a great number of unresolved  problems, and a great number of people who could see opportunities in the mix.


----------



## Foxfyre

American Horse said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> WEll there are similarities between the turn of the 20th century and the turn of the 21st...
> 
> For example...*European nations were very economically interdependent,* yet they still managed to get themselves embroiled in a stipid STUPID war that ultimately detroyed the world's economy for nearly two decades.
> 
> And now, now that the economic interdependence includes most of the world, we find ourselves seemingly poised for another convulsion of stupid war.
> 
> Wars are often about TRADE.
> 
> WWI certainly was the battle between the British, French, Austo-Hapburg and Romanov Empires to dominate world's trade and colonialization.
> 
> It isn't too much of a stretch to see something like that happening again, since once again, we are seeing rising mercantile empires (Asian) at odds with better established Western mercantile empires.
> 
> I don;t see anything on the horizon, but the stage is set for hostilities if the respective masters of these empries get especially stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Respective Masters of these Empires?" Who would that be?
> 
> You've been playing too much Risk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My rough estimation of the cause of WW-I (the best approximate commparable) is that there were at that historical moment a great number of unresolved  problems, and a great number of people who could see opportunities in the mix.
Click to expand...


And in my understanding of 20th Century World History, you would be correct.

In both Germany and Russia widespread unemployment, shortages of essential goods, an unstable and unreliable money supply coupled with unresponsive governments opened the door for Hitler and Lenin followed by Stalin.   Similar internal chaos inside China did in the imperial dynasties leaving the path clear for a Mao Tse Tung.

Now we are seeing in country after country protests due to many of the same human problems with resulting pressure to weaken and topple unresponsive authoritarian governments.

This leaves a vacuum for a charismatic and opportunistic type to step up and seize the reins.  If he is a good person, great.  If not, we could have many Hitlers and Lenin/Stalins on our hands for the 21st Century experience.


----------



## Samson

American Horse said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> WEll there are similarities between the turn of the 20th century and the turn of the 21st...
> 
> For example...*European nations were very economically interdependent,* yet they still managed to get themselves embroiled in a stipid STUPID war that ultimately detroyed the world's economy for nearly two decades.
> 
> And now, now that the economic interdependence includes most of the world, we find ourselves seemingly poised for another convulsion of stupid war.
> 
> Wars are often about TRADE.
> 
> WWI certainly was the battle between the British, French, Austo-Hapburg and Romanov Empires to dominate world's trade and colonialization.
> 
> It isn't too much of a stretch to see something like that happening again, since once again, we are seeing rising mercantile empires (Asian) at odds with better established Western mercantile empires.
> 
> I don;t see anything on the horizon, but the stage is set for hostilities if the* respective masters of these emprie*s get especially stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Respective Masters of these Empires?" Who would that be?
> 
> You've been playing too much Risk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My rough estimation of the cause of WW-I (the best approximate commparable) is that there were at that historical moment a great number of unresolved  problems, and a great number of people who could see opportunities in the mix.
Click to expand...


Yes, I agree, but editec mentioned PRESENT "rising mercantile empires at odds with better established mercantile empires" and the "respective masters of these empires."

I'm wondering: who these "Masters" are?


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Respective Masters of these Empires?" Who would that be?
> 
> You've been playing too much Risk.
> 
> 
> 
> My rough estimation of the cause of WW-I (the best approximate commparable) is that there were at that historical moment a great number of unresolved  problems, and a great number of people who could see opportunities in the mix.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And in my understanding of 20th Century World History, you would be correct.
> 
> In both Germany and Russia widespread unemployment, shortages of essential goods, an unstable and unreliable money supply coupled with unresponsive governments opened the door for Hitler and Lenin followed by Stalin.   Similar internal chaos inside China did in the imperial dynasties leaving the path clear for a Mao Tse Tung.
> 
> Now we are seeing in country after country protests due to many of the same human problems with resulting pressure to weaken and topple unresponsive authoritarian governments.
> 
> This leaves a vacuum for a charismatic and opportunistic type to step up and seize the reins.  If he is a good person, great.  If not, we could have many Hitlers and Lenin/Stalins on our hands for the 21st Century experience.
Click to expand...


"Now we are seeing in country after country protests?"

Frankly, I liken the ME protests to the USA, 1969-1974.

LBJ refused to run for office, Nixon resigned, and the social fabric of the USA was ripped apart, but it didn't cause WW III.


----------



## American Horse

Samson said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Respective Masters of these Empires?" Who would that be?
> 
> You've been playing too much Risk.
> 
> 
> 
> My rough estimation of the cause of WW-I (the best approximate commparable) is that there were at that historical moment a great number of unresolved  problems, and a great number of people who could see opportunities in the mix.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree, but editec mentioned PRESENT "rising mercantile empires at odds with better established mercantile empires" and the "respective masters of these empires."
> 
> I'm wondering: who these "Masters" are?
Click to expand...

Present situations needn't; but it depends on who the bad actors are, and the risks versus gains.  A lot would be based on perception of American strength, and of how perishable opportunites are.


----------



## Caroljo

Avorysuds said:


> bucs90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if one believes in the Bible, then we are headed towards a very distinct future that has been spoken of already.
> 
> And with each year that passes, more and more of those thousands year old speakings become reality. Left wing atheists still deny this. Yet, predicted events keep becoming real history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives like me deny it too... It's fucking dumb.
Click to expand...


Well I'm a Conservative....and Thank God not one like you.

See everyone...not all conservatives are Christian, not with attitudes like this.


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> My rough estimation of the cause of WW-I (the best approximate commparable) is that there were at that historical moment a great number of unresolved  problems, and a great number of people who could see opportunities in the mix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And in my understanding of 20th Century World History, you would be correct.
> 
> In both Germany and Russia widespread unemployment, shortages of essential goods, an unstable and unreliable money supply coupled with unresponsive governments opened the door for Hitler and Lenin followed by Stalin.   Similar internal chaos inside China did in the imperial dynasties leaving the path clear for a Mao Tse Tung.
> 
> Now we are seeing in country after country protests due to many of the same human problems with resulting pressure to weaken and topple unresponsive authoritarian governments.
> 
> This leaves a vacuum for a charismatic and opportunistic type to step up and seize the reins.  If he is a good person, great.  If not, we could have many Hitlers and Lenin/Stalins on our hands for the 21st Century experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Now we are seeing in country after country protests?"
> 
> Frankly, I liken the ME protests to the USA, 1969-1974.
> 
> LBJ refused to run for office, Nixon resigned, and the social fabric of the USA was ripped apart, but it didn't cause WW III.
Click to expand...


There was no serious effort, except for a few nuts, to overthrow the existing government during the worst of the riots back then though.  Those protesters were protesting the 'establishment' or protesting the war or some other issue.  But the U.S. Constitution is strong with enough people who understand what it is supposed to accomplish that a few war protestors or college numbnuts were no threat to the stability of the USA.  Our system of government provides checks and balances and the rights of the people are not dramatically affected by who is at the helm and any changes at the top are accomplished in an orderly and lawful manner.  Theory and policy will change from administration to administration but only in a limited manner.  The lifes and fortunes of the people are generally not dramatically altered according to who is in the White House or Congress.

But in Iran they are demanding that the leadership step down.  In Egypt they were demanding that the leadership step down.  In Tunisia they were demanding the leadership step down.  In Lybia they are demanding that the leadership step down.  And if the Saudi and Jordan and Morroco monarchies are unable to cool the fires, it is likely the mobs will be demanding that the leadership be removed.  In each case there is no process for an orderly transfer of power and the situation is ripe for a worse devil than the one they know to seize power.


----------



## Foxfyre

Update:  according to the Albuquerque Journal this morning, the Obama Administration has now slapped sanctions on Lybia.

But then there is this newscast explaining how we are 'building relationships' in other troubled nations by recently funneling $770 million of U.S. taypayer monies into repairing mosques in various Middle East countries:

Mosque Makeovers With Your Tax Dollars - Video - WSB Atlanta

I'm curious whether even our strongest Obama supporters might have a problem with this?


----------



## SFC Ollie

Foxfyre said:


> Update:  according to the Albuquerque Journal this morning, the Obama Administration has now slapped sanctions on Lybia.
> 
> But then there is this newscast explaining how we are 'building relationships' in other troubled nations by recently funneling $770 million of U.S. taypayer monies into repairing mosques in various Middle East countries:
> 
> Mosque Makeovers With Your Tax Dollars - Video - WSB Atlanta
> 
> I'm curious whether even our strongest Obama supporters might have a problem with this?



But that's less than one Billion


----------



## Foxfyre

SFC Ollie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Update:  according to the Albuquerque Journal this morning, the Obama Administration has now slapped sanctions on Lybia.
> 
> But then there is this newscast explaining how we are 'building relationships' in other troubled nations by recently funneling $770 million of U.S. taypayer monies into repairing mosques in various Middle East countries:
> 
> Mosque Makeovers With Your Tax Dollars - Video - WSB Atlanta
> 
> I'm curious whether even our strongest Obama supporters might have a problem with this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that's less than one Billion
Click to expand...


But you know what Ollie, a thousand dollars is a lot of money to me.  I would like to know that my elected leaders treat a thousand dollars taken from me in taxes with upmost respect and make sure I get my full money's worth when it is spent.

A million dollars is a fortune--enough for me to live in luxury the rest of my life.  I won't pay but a fraction of that when all taxes I have paid in a lifetime are added together.  And a billion is too big a number for me to even get my mind around.

If the federal government authorized even a few thousand to patch up U.S. synagogue and churches, the hue and cry of angry protest would be deafening.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Foxfyre said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Update:  according to the Albuquerque Journal this morning, the Obama Administration has now slapped sanctions on Lybia.
> 
> But then there is this newscast explaining how we are 'building relationships' in other troubled nations by recently funneling $770 million of U.S. taypayer monies into repairing mosques in various Middle East countries:
> 
> Mosque Makeovers With Your Tax Dollars - Video - WSB Atlanta
> 
> I'm curious whether even our strongest Obama supporters might have a problem with this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that's less than one Billion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But you know what Ollie, a thousand dollars is a lot of money to me.  I would like to know that my elected leaders treat a thousand dollars taken from me in taxes with upmost respect and make sure I get my full money's worth when it is spent.
> 
> A million dollars is a fortune--enough for me to live in luxury the rest of my life.  I won't pay but a fraction of that when all taxes I have paid in a lifetime are added together.  And a billion is too big a number for me to even get my mind around.
> 
> If the federal government authorized even a few thousand to patch up U.S. synagogue and churches, the hue and cry of angry protest would be deafening.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry, I was being facetious. I thought most people who know me would see that.
But we all have an off day.... 

Fact is that the left should be screaming bloody murder over the Government spending even a dime on any religion. But as long as it's not Christianity I guess it's OK.


----------



## Foxfyre

SFC Ollie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> But that's less than one Billion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you know what Ollie, a thousand dollars is a lot of money to me.  I would like to know that my elected leaders treat a thousand dollars taken from me in taxes with upmost respect and make sure I get my full money's worth when it is spent.
> 
> A million dollars is a fortune--enough for me to live in luxury the rest of my life.  I won't pay but a fraction of that when all taxes I have paid in a lifetime are added together.  And a billion is too big a number for me to even get my mind around.
> 
> If the federal government authorized even a few thousand to patch up U.S. synagogue and churches, the hue and cry of angry protest would be deafening.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I was being facetious. I thought most people who know me would see that.
> But we all have an off day....
> 
> Fact is that the left should be screaming bloody murder over the Government spending even a dime on any religion. But as long as it's not Christianity I guess it's OK.
Click to expand...


Oh I know you were being sarcastic and should have recognized that in my post.

But I am deadly serious.  $770 million here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money.  (Apologies to Sen Everitt Dirkson).

If taxes were assessed per head so that every man, woman, and child in the country paid an equal amount, one billion dollars represents roughly $30 or so dollars for each of us  or $120 for a family of four.  But since only a little over half of Americans pay any federal income tax at all, double that to $480 for each family of four that pays taxes.   If we're talking $1 trillion, that's $4,800 per family - $3 trillion $14,400 per family.  And since the low end only pays a fraction of that, the comparative few who pay most of the taxes are getting hammered like in no other time in this country's history.

But if the country does manage to bankrupt itself so that it cannot pay the most fundamental contractual obligations, everybody gets hammered.

What in the hell are our leaders doing sending $770 million dollars that we don't have to Middle East countries for purposes that are essential to nobody's life, health, or general well being?


----------



## Woyzeck

Man, this year is turning out to be like 1848 more than World War 3.


----------



## snjmom

Woyzeck said:


> Man, this year is turning out to be like 1848 more than World War 3.



With Twitter and FB.


----------



## Foxfyre

Woyzeck said:


> Man, this year is turning out to be like 1848 more than World War 3.



Good analogy.  There were only like four major countries on the other side of the pond that DIDN'T undergo a major revolution or revolution attempt that year?


----------



## Woyzeck

snjmom said:


> Woyzeck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, this year is turning out to be like 1848 more than World War 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Twitter and FB.
Click to expand...


We live in interesting times.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Woyzeck said:


> snjmom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woyzeck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, this year is turning out to be like 1848 more than World War 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Twitter and FB.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We live in interesting times.
Click to expand...


That is not always a good thing (especially if you live on Discworld)


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> And in my understanding of 20th Century World History, you would be correct.
> 
> In both Germany and Russia widespread unemployment, shortages of essential goods, an unstable and unreliable money supply coupled with unresponsive governments opened the door for Hitler and Lenin followed by Stalin.   Similar internal chaos inside China did in the imperial dynasties leaving the path clear for a Mao Tse Tung.
> 
> Now we are seeing in country after country protests due to many of the same human problems with resulting pressure to weaken and topple unresponsive authoritarian governments.
> 
> This leaves a vacuum for a charismatic and opportunistic type to step up and seize the reins.  If he is a good person, great.  If not, we could have many Hitlers and Lenin/Stalins on our hands for the 21st Century experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now we are seeing in country after country protests?"
> 
> Frankly, I liken the ME protests to the USA, 1969-1974.
> 
> LBJ refused to run for office, Nixon resigned, and the social fabric of the USA was ripped apart, but it didn't cause WW III.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There was no serious effort, except for a few nuts, to overthrow the existing government during the worst of the riots back then though.  Those protesters were protesting the 'establishment' or protesting the war or some other issue.  But the U.S. Constitution is strong with enough people who understand what it is supposed to accomplish that a few war protestors or college numbnuts were no threat to the stability of the USA.  Our system of government provides checks and balances and the rights of the people are not dramatically affected by who is at the helm and any changes at the top are accomplished in an orderly and lawful manner.  Theory and policy will change from administration to administration but only in a limited manner.  The lifes and fortunes of the people are generally not dramatically altered according to who is in the White House or Congress.
> 
> But in Iran they are demanding that the leadership step down.  In Egypt they were demanding that the leadership step down.  In Tunisia they were demanding the leadership step down.  In Lybia they are demanding that the leadership step down.  And if the Saudi and Jordan and Morroco monarchies are unable to cool the fires, it is likely the mobs will be demanding that the leadership be removed.  In each case there is no process for an orderly transfer of power and the situation is ripe for a worse devil than the one they know to seize power.
Click to expand...


I admit that the fact that Nixon resigned and LBJ declined to run were results of protests over US policy that weren't necessarily EXACTLY like Egypt or Libya. Obviously there's a huge difference in the change of power: however, I believe the results will be the same.

As the USA underwent fundamental social changes in the late 60's and early 70's, so will the middle east during the next decade. Furthermore, there is no reson to believe these internal societal changes won't result in a BETTER, "devil than the one they know."


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Now we are seeing in country after country protests?"
> 
> Frankly, I liken the ME protests to the USA, 1969-1974.
> 
> LBJ refused to run for office, Nixon resigned, and the social fabric of the USA was ripped apart, but it didn't cause WW III.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was no serious effort, except for a few nuts, to overthrow the existing government during the worst of the riots back then though.  Those protesters were protesting the 'establishment' or protesting the war or some other issue.  But the U.S. Constitution is strong with enough people who understand what it is supposed to accomplish that a few war protestors or college numbnuts were no threat to the stability of the USA.  Our system of government provides checks and balances and the rights of the people are not dramatically affected by who is at the helm and any changes at the top are accomplished in an orderly and lawful manner.  Theory and policy will change from administration to administration but only in a limited manner.  The lifes and fortunes of the people are generally not dramatically altered according to who is in the White House or Congress.
> 
> But in Iran they are demanding that the leadership step down.  In Egypt they were demanding that the leadership step down.  In Tunisia they were demanding the leadership step down.  In Lybia they are demanding that the leadership step down.  And if the Saudi and Jordan and Morroco monarchies are unable to cool the fires, it is likely the mobs will be demanding that the leadership be removed.  In each case there is no process for an orderly transfer of power and the situation is ripe for a worse devil than the one they know to seize power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I admit that the fact that Nixon resigned and LBJ declined to run were results of protests over US policy that weren't necessarily EXACTLY like Egypt or Libya. Obviously there's a huge difference in the change of power: however, I believe the results will be the same.
> 
> As the USA underwent fundamental social changes in the late 60's and early 70's, so will the middle east during the next decade. Furthermore, there is no reson to believe these internal societal changes won't result in a BETTER, "devil than the one they know."
Click to expand...


I wish I could share your optimism and hopefulness my friend.  But alas, I think history doesn't support it all that well.

Where human/unalienable rights are acknowledged and respected, the nations seem to get through trials and tribulations in pretty good shape or at least they put themselves back together effectively.

Otherwise the pattern has been pretty grim.

Nicholas II replaced by Lenin and then Stalin in Russia.

King Victor Emmanuel replaced by Mussolini in Italy.

von Schleicher, von Papen, and Bruening in rapid succession replaced by Hitler in Germany.

Arafat replaced by Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine.

Chiang Kaishek replaced by Chairman Mao in China.

Batista replaced by Castro in Cuba.

The Shah replaced by Ayatollah Khoemini and then in rapid succession Rafsanjani, Khatami and current president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.​
I haven't analyzed it a great deal, but I believe in every country that has succeeded in something approximating a democracy, visionary leaders put together a concept of a working government and THEN carried out the revolution to overthrow a monarchy or dictatorship or whatever.

Almost certainly in Saudi Arabia, Lybia, Tunisia, Egypt, Iran, and Jordan there is no such leadership doing that.  So if the monarch or dictator is taken down, it leaves a huge vacuum which history has shown us is very dangerous.


----------



## Ropey

Foxfyre said:


> So if the monarch or dictator is taken down, it leaves a huge vacuum which history has shown us is very dangerous.



So now we wait to see if it is of the people.  If it isn't, then we know. It's not hard to tell as true Democratic infrastructure can not easily be faked at the fundamental level.

Can the ruling power be voted out in an entirety by the people?  That's the test and proof of a Democracy.

Look at Hamas. Within one period of voting, they performed a coup on Fatah's presidency. They lost the coup and ran to Gaza where they began to throw the Fatah supporters out the windows and roofs and shooting their leaders. 

The proof of a Democracy isn't voting them in although that is a facet. 

The power of a Democracy is in "Voting the Bums Out"!  Voting Hamas in was easy. There has yet to be a vote since then and coup attempts on other governmental departments?

No, that's out.  Right out. So, I wait and see.


----------



## hipeter924

Ropey said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if the monarch or dictator is taken down, it leaves a huge vacuum which history has shown us is very dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now we wait to see if it is of the people.  If it isn't, then we know. It's not hard to tell as true Democratic infrastructure can not easily be faked at the fundamental level.
> 
> Can the ruling power be voted out in an entirety by the people?  That's the test and proof of a Democracy.
> 
> Look at Hamas. Within one period of voting, they performed a coup on Fatah's presidency. They lost the coup and ran to Gaza where they began to throw the Fatah supporters out the windows and roofs and shooting their leaders.
> 
> The proof of a Democracy isn't voting them in although that is a facet.
> 
> The power of a Democracy is in "Voting the Bums Out"!  Voting Hamas in was easy. There has yet to be a vote since then and coup attempts on other governmental departments?
> 
> No, that's out.  Right out. So, I wait and see.
Click to expand...

I am getting the signs I am right about Egypt, democracy in line with you guessed it 'islamic law' is going to be thing there and perhaps all the countries under revolt in the middle east want an Iraq styled democracy.

This is tolerable and amusing in the sense that many left wingers condemn the 95% Muslim country for passing a constitution which contains Islamic law on a democratic basis as a 'Buuuusssh' thing and 'imperialist nation building', truth is that Iraq styled democracy is pretty much what the Muslim and Arab people as a whole want. 

*sigh*

And the left wing media report "America and the European Union" and so forth should help Libya and revolutions, while condemning them for helping/sparking democratic revolution in the same article....let me think...continuity error. 

Let's remember the perfect 'democracy' in Gaza:


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> I wish I could share your optimism and hopefulness my friend.  But alas, I think history doesn't support it all that well.
> 
> Where human/unalienable rights are acknowledged and respected, the nations seem to get through trials and tribulations in pretty good shape or at least they put themselves back together effectively.
> 
> Otherwise the pattern has been pretty grim.



Your Glass-is-half-empty examples _are not the realistic "pattern."_

Nicholas II replaced by Lenin and then Stalin in Russia....Then the USSR fell apart without destroying itself, or anyone around it.
King Victor Emmanuel replaced by Mussolini in Italy......Then the Italians killed Mussolini and became a democracy
von Schleicher, von Papen, and Bruening in rapid succession replaced by Hitler in Germany......Then Hitler committed suicide, and Germany once again returned to democracy
Arafat replaced by Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine.....what is "Palestine?"
Chiang Kaishek replaced by Chairman Mao in China.....and the Chinese have become an important trade partner with the USA
Batista replaced by Castro in Cuba......and Cuba threatens no one today
The Shah replaced by Ayatollah Khoemini and then in rapid succession Rafsanjani, Khatami and current president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.....yes, and as you've said, he probably won't last long.


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could share your optimism and hopefulness my friend.  But alas, I think history doesn't support it all that well.
> 
> Where human/unalienable rights are acknowledged and respected, the nations seem to get through trials and tribulations in pretty good shape or at least they put themselves back together effectively.
> 
> Otherwise the pattern has been pretty grim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Glass-is-half-empty examples _are not the realistic "pattern."_
> 
> Nicholas II replaced by Lenin and then Stalin in Russia....Then the USSR fell apart without destroying itself, or anyone around it.
> King Victor Emmanuel replaced by Mussolini in Italy......Then the Italians killed Mussolini and became a democracy
> von Schleicher, von Papen, and Bruening in rapid succession replaced by Hitler in Germany......Then Hitler committed suicide, and Germany once again returned to democracy
> Arafat replaced by Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine.....what is "Palestine?"
> Chiang Kaishek replaced by Chairman Mao in China.....and the Chinese have become an important trade partner with the USA
> Batista replaced by Castro in Cuba......and Cuba threatens no one today
> The Shah replaced by Ayatollah Khoemini and then in rapid succession Rafsanjani, Khatami and current president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.....yes, and as you've said, he probably won't last long.
Click to expand...


So you're assuming these nations had to go through the years of the worst kind of leadership in order to get to a better place?

I'm sorry, but I think the tens of millions piled on top of tens of more millions in dead bodies is too high a price to pay.  And NONE of those corrupt leaders willingly relinquished power but did so only under pressure from kinder and gentler nations.


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could share your optimism and hopefulness my friend.  But alas, I think history doesn't support it all that well.
> 
> Where human/unalienable rights are acknowledged and respected, the nations seem to get through trials and tribulations in pretty good shape or at least they put themselves back together effectively.
> 
> Otherwise the pattern has been pretty grim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Glass-is-half-empty examples _are not the realistic "pattern."_
> 
> Nicholas II replaced by Lenin and then Stalin in Russia....Then the USSR fell apart without destroying itself, or anyone around it.
> King Victor Emmanuel replaced by Mussolini in Italy......Then the Italians killed Mussolini and became a democracy
> von Schleicher, von Papen, and Bruening in rapid succession replaced by Hitler in Germany......Then Hitler committed suicide, and Germany once again returned to democracy
> Arafat replaced by Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine.....what is "Palestine?"
> Chiang Kaishek replaced by Chairman Mao in China.....and the Chinese have become an important trade partner with the USA
> Batista replaced by Castro in Cuba......and Cuba threatens no one today
> The Shah replaced by Ayatollah Khoemini and then in rapid succession Rafsanjani, Khatami and current president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.....yes, and as you've said, he probably won't last long.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you're assuming these nations had to go through the years of the worst kind of leadership in order to get to a better place?
> 
> I'm sorry, but I think the tens of millions piled on top of tens of more millions in dead bodies is too high a price to pay.  And NONE of those corrupt leaders willingly relinquished power but did so only under pressure from kinder and gentler nations.
Click to expand...


You gotta break an egg to make an omelette


----------



## Ropey

Samson said:


> You gotta break an egg to make an omelette



Indeed. Births are painful for both mother and child. Sometimes to the death of one or both.


----------



## Samson

Ropey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You gotta break an egg to make an omelette
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Births are painful for both mother and child. Sometimes to the death of one or both.
Click to expand...


_Sometimes_ is the critical word = Not Very Often.


----------



## Ropey

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could share your optimism and hopefulness my friend.  But alas, I think history doesn't support it all that well.
> 
> Where human/unalienable rights are acknowledged and respected, the nations seem to get through trials and tribulations in pretty good shape or at least they put themselves back together effectively.
> 
> Otherwise the pattern has been pretty grim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Glass-is-half-empty examples _are not the realistic "pattern."_
> 
> Nicholas II replaced by Lenin and then Stalin in Russia....Then the USSR fell apart without destroying itself, or anyone around it.
> King Victor Emmanuel replaced by Mussolini in Italy......Then the Italians killed Mussolini and became a democracy
> von Schleicher, von Papen, and Bruening in rapid succession replaced by Hitler in Germany......Then Hitler committed suicide, and Germany once again returned to democracy
> Arafat replaced by Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine.....what is "Palestine?"
> Chiang Kaishek replaced by Chairman Mao in China.....and the Chinese have become an important trade partner with the USA
> Batista replaced by Castro in Cuba......and Cuba threatens no one today
> The Shah replaced by Ayatollah Khoemini and then in rapid succession Rafsanjani, Khatami and current president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.....yes, and as you've said, he probably won't last long.
Click to expand...


I had not expected Barak Hussein Obama to win the US Presidency.  I had thought it would have been something had Hilary won the Democratic Convention and McCain was who I had expected to win.

History showed clearly  Older white guy followed by older white guy.

Young Black fast talker?

From left field.   

So, who knows. I see that the Egyptian street wants the border between Israel and Gaza opened but nothing yet about the boarder between Egypt and Gaza. 

Interesting times indeed.



Samson said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You gotta break an egg to make an omelette
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Births are painful for both mother and child. Sometimes to the death of one or both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Sometimes_ is the critical word = Not Very Often.
Click to expand...


That depends on the environment for birthing does it not?


----------



## Samson

Ropey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could share your optimism and hopefulness my friend.  But alas, I think history doesn't support it all that well.
> 
> Where human/unalienable rights are acknowledged and respected, the nations seem to get through trials and tribulations in pretty good shape or at least they put themselves back together effectively.
> 
> Otherwise the pattern has been pretty grim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Glass-is-half-empty examples _are not the realistic "pattern."_
> 
> Nicholas II replaced by Lenin and then Stalin in Russia....Then the USSR fell apart without destroying itself, or anyone around it.
> King Victor Emmanuel replaced by Mussolini in Italy......Then the Italians killed Mussolini and became a democracy
> von Schleicher, von Papen, and Bruening in rapid succession replaced by Hitler in Germany......Then Hitler committed suicide, and Germany once again returned to democracy
> Arafat replaced by Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine.....what is "Palestine?"
> Chiang Kaishek replaced by Chairman Mao in China.....and the Chinese have become an important trade partner with the USA
> Batista replaced by Castro in Cuba......and Cuba threatens no one today
> The Shah replaced by Ayatollah Khoemini and then in rapid succession Rafsanjani, Khatami and current president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.....yes, and as you've said, he probably won't last long.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I had not expected Barak Hussein Obama to win the US Presidency.  I had thought it would have been something had Hilary won the Democratic Convention and McCain was who I had expected to win.
> 
> History showed clearly  Older white guy followed by older white guy.
> 
> Young Black fast talker?
> 
> From left field.
> 
> So, who knows. I see that the Egyptian street wants the border between Israel and Gaza opened but nothing yet about the boarder between Egypt and Gaza.
> 
> Interesting times indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Births are painful for both mother and child. Sometimes to the death of one or both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Sometimes_ is the critical word = Not Very Often.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That depends on the environment for birthing does it not?
Click to expand...


I would suppose that with almost 7 Billion Humans on the planet, the environment on Earth has been hospitable for Human Reproduction.


----------



## Ropey

Samson said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your Glass-is-half-empty examples _are not the realistic "pattern."_
> 
> Nicholas II replaced by Lenin and then Stalin in Russia....Then the USSR fell apart without destroying itself, or anyone around it.
> King Victor Emmanuel replaced by Mussolini in Italy......Then the Italians killed Mussolini and became a democracy
> von Schleicher, von Papen, and Bruening in rapid succession replaced by Hitler in Germany......Then Hitler committed suicide, and Germany once again returned to democracy
> Arafat replaced by Hamas and Hezbollah in Palestine.....what is "Palestine?"
> Chiang Kaishek replaced by Chairman Mao in China.....and the Chinese have become an important trade partner with the USA
> Batista replaced by Castro in Cuba......and Cuba threatens no one today
> The Shah replaced by Ayatollah Khoemini and then in rapid succession Rafsanjani, Khatami and current president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.....yes, and as you've said, he probably won't last long.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had not expected Barak Hussein Obama to win the US Presidency.  I had thought it would have been something had Hilary won the Democratic Convention and McCain was who I had expected to win.
> 
> History showed clearly  Older white guy followed by older white guy.
> 
> Young Black fast talker?
> 
> From left field.
> 
> So, who knows. I see that the Egyptian street wants the border between Israel and Gaza opened but nothing yet about the boarder between Egypt and Gaza.
> 
> Interesting times indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Sometimes_ is the critical word = Not Very Often.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That depends on the environment for birthing does it not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would suppose that with almost 7 Billion Humans on the planet, the environment on Earth has been hospitable for Human Reproduction.
Click to expand...


Had the environment not been hospitable?  Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.  

I don't know what's going to happen.


----------



## Samson

Ropey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had not expected Barak Hussein Obama to win the US Presidency.  I had thought it would have been something had Hilary won the Democratic Convention and McCain was who I had expected to win.
> 
> History showed clearly  Older white guy followed by older white guy.
> 
> Young Black fast talker?
> 
> From left field.
> 
> So, who knows. I see that the Egyptian street wants the border between Israel and Gaza opened but nothing yet about the boarder between Egypt and Gaza.
> 
> Interesting times indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on the environment for birthing does it not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would suppose that with almost 7 Billion Humans on the planet, the environment on Earth has been hospitable for Human Reproduction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Had the environment not been hospitable?  Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.
Click to expand...


Why not?

It would not be the first time Democracy succeeded Despotism.


----------



## Ropey

Samson said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would suppose that with almost 7 Billion Humans on the planet, the environment on Earth has been hospitable for Human Reproduction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had the environment not been hospitable?  Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why not?
> 
> It would not be the first time Democracy succeeded Despotism.
Click to expand...


And that's why it is interesting times.  But it is pretty much always a painful environment for the act and we do need to look through the lens of the middle east.

Watch the press for Egypt. They are the first to devolve. Have they even been birthed?  Egypt had a relatively open press if not free which is to say that the infrastructure of the press is strong. Right now? I wonder since there's not much coming in, and yes one must search to find that reporters are onto the next story.  The Egyptian stock market is still closed. 

When the eyes of the world move on a different scenario can present.  It is good to keep an eye out for sometimes the birthing is a quick and violent aborting. Doubly so when no one is helping for fear of 'meddling'.  

We shall see.


----------



## hipeter924

Samson said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would suppose that with almost 7 Billion Humans on the planet, the environment on Earth has been hospitable for Human Reproduction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had the environment not been hospitable?  Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why not?
> 
> It would not be the first time Democracy succeeded Despotism.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you define as being a despot.


----------



## Foxfyre

The thing is we look at history as if it were a movie being played out in videos or books but not really emotionally involving most of the boomers and their progeny all that much.  Unless one engages in serious active duty in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or in the smaller skirmishes such as Bosnia or Somalia, the horrors of war seem pretty far removed from our current reality.   The World War II and Korea crowd are getting really up there in years now.  Not all that many Holocaust survivors left.  I read I think this morning that the last World War I veteran died this week at the age of 110.

All this is to say that most of us have no memory of the real horrors necessary to achieve democracy and most of those left who have seen combat have not witnessed democracy developing out of it as there have been no wars 'won' since World War II.

Coming from a military family, however, my head is full of the war stories--the victories, triumphs, successes, failures, and everything in between.  And also the horrors.

We Americans pretty much shut out the horrors that are occurring even now in some of the Islamic nations, in some African countries brutalized by terrorist warlords, etc.  We don't think about all that much.  Nothing we can do about it so out of sight, out of mind.

And America has devolved into this sort of let the government protect and take care of us if we get into serious trouble and I wonder if we have lost much of the spirit and determination to take care of ourselves?   I don't know how well we would cope with a World War II these days.

I hope my concerns are ill founded.


----------



## hipeter924

Foxfyre said:


> The thing is we look at history as if it were a movie being played out in videos or books but not really emotionally involving most of the boomers and their progeny all that much.  Unless one engages in serious active duty in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or in the smaller skirmishes such as Bosnia or Somalia, the horrors of war seem pretty far removed from our current reality.   The World War II and Korea crowd are getting really up there in years now.  Not all that many Holocaust survivors left.  I read I think this morning that the last World War I veteran died this week at the age of 110.
> 
> All this is to say that most of us have no memory of the real horrors necessary to achieve democracy and most of those left who have seen combat have not witnessed democracy developing out of it as there have been no wars 'won' since World War II.
> 
> Coming from a military family, however, my head is full of the war stories--the victories, triumphs, successes, failures, and everything in between.  And also the horrors.
> 
> We Americans pretty much shut out the horrors that are occurring even now in some of the Islamic nations, in some African countries brutalized by terrorist warlords, etc.  We don't think about all that much.  Nothing we can do about it so out of sight, out of mind.
> 
> And America has devolved into this sort of let the government protect and take care of us if we get into serious trouble and I wonder if we have lost much of the spirit and determination to take care of ourselves?   I don't know how well we would cope with a World War II these days.
> 
> I hope my concerns are ill founded.


The government is made up of people (not supermen), instead elitist bureaucrats, corporatist lobbyists and economists. The America (and the west) you are talking of died by the end of the Korean War, and was consumed by people that wanted war not to ease suffering or create a better world, or free people, but instead to support a war for resources and control. Iraq was such a mess because it was divided among those who really did want to free and better Iraq and those that simply wanted to take its resources and exploit its population. 

America is ideologically divided in government between those who view Americas role in the world is to exploit, and control to retain US supremacy, those who feel the US should leave the world to collapse in on itself, or those who want to fight bit by bit and use diplomatic tools until there is no dictatorship left standing (it was thanks to Bush after all that Pakistan became a democracy), all those factions show themselves once in a while in US actions/inactions across the world.


----------



## Foxfyre

hipeter924 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is we look at history as if it were a movie being played out in videos or books but not really emotionally involving most of the boomers and their progeny all that much.  Unless one engages in serious active duty in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or in the smaller skirmishes such as Bosnia or Somalia, the horrors of war seem pretty far removed from our current reality.   The World War II and Korea crowd are getting really up there in years now.  Not all that many Holocaust survivors left.  I read I think this morning that the last World War I veteran died this week at the age of 110.
> 
> All this is to say that most of us have no memory of the real horrors necessary to achieve democracy and most of those left who have seen combat have not witnessed democracy developing out of it as there have been no wars 'won' since World War II.
> 
> Coming from a military family, however, my head is full of the war stories--the victories, triumphs, successes, failures, and everything in between.  And also the horrors.
> 
> We Americans pretty much shut out the horrors that are occurring even now in some of the Islamic nations, in some African countries brutalized by terrorist warlords, etc.  We don't think about all that much.  Nothing we can do about it so out of sight, out of mind.
> 
> And America has devolved into this sort of let the government protect and take care of us if we get into serious trouble and I wonder if we have lost much of the spirit and determination to take care of ourselves?   I don't know how well we would cope with a World War II these days.
> 
> I hope my concerns are ill founded.
> 
> 
> 
> The government is made up of people (not supermen), instead elitist bureaucrats, corporatist lobbyists and economists. The America (and the west) you are talking of died by the end of the Korean War, and was consumed by people that wanted war not to ease suffering or create a better world, or free people, but instead to support a war for resources and control. Iraq was such a mess because it was divided among those who really did want to free and better Iraq and those that simply wanted to take its resources and exploit its population.
> 
> America is ideologically divided in government between those who view Americas role in the world is to exploit, and control to retain US supremacy, those who feel the US should leave the world to collapse in on itself, or those who want to fight bit by bit and use diplomatic tools until there is no dictatorship left standing (it was thanks to Bush after all that Pakistan became a democracy), all those factions show themselves once in a while in US actions/inactions across the world.
Click to expand...


Some interesting perspective there Hipeter.  I always thought Americans want their unalienable rights recognized and respected and othewise want mostly to just be left pretty much alone by other powers and their own government to live their lives as they choose.

But two factors make that difficult:

1.  Most Americans realize that we are in an ever shrinking world dependent upon one another for quality of life and we want a place at the table to bargain for our share.  We tend to take it personally when a place at the table is denied us.

Also. . . .

2.  Most Americans have a strong sense of justice and fairness and it is difficult for them to stand with their hands in the pockets and just watch when other people are in terrible difficulties from whatever reason.


----------



## Foxfyre

And so. . . .

Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:



> Reuters) - Oil prices jumped to near 2-1/2 year highs on Wednesday after an airstrike near Libya's oil infrastructure kept the market braced for a prolonged disruption from the OPEC nation and worried unrest might spread to other regional producers.
> 
> Fresh airstrikes hit Brega, about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from a Libyan oil terminal, after embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi launched a land and air offensive to retake territory in Libya's east.
> 
> The reprisal sparked calls from rebels for foreign air strikes on African mercenaries they said were helping him stay in power.
> 
> Oil surges after Libya airstrike near oil terminal | Reuters





> BREGA, Libya &#8211; Opponents of Moammar Gadhafi repelled an attack by the Libyan leader's forces trying to retake a key coastal oil installation in a topsy-turvy battle Wednesday in which shells splashed in the Mediterranean and a warplane bombed a beach where rebel fighters were charging over the dunes. At least six people were killed in the fighting.
> 
> The assault on the Brega oil port was the first major regime counteroffensive against the opposition-held eastern half of Libya, where the population backed by mutinous army units rose up and drove out Gadhafi's rule over the past two weeks.
> 
> Rebels push back Libya regime attack on oil port - Yahoo! News



So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy.  There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.

American interest indeed. . . .


----------



## Samson

hipeter924 said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had the environment not been hospitable?  Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?
> 
> It would not be the first time Democracy succeeded Despotism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Depends on what you define as being a despot.
Click to expand...


How's that?


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> And so. . . .
> 
> Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reuters) - Oil prices jumped to near 2-1/2 year highs on Wednesday after an airstrike near Libya's oil infrastructure kept the market braced for a prolonged disruption from the OPEC nation and worried unrest might spread to other regional producers.
> 
> Fresh airstrikes hit Brega, about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from a Libyan oil terminal, after embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi launched a land and air offensive to retake territory in Libya's east.
> 
> The reprisal sparked calls from rebels for foreign air strikes on African mercenaries they said were helping him stay in power.
> 
> Oil surges after Libya airstrike near oil terminal | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BREGA, Libya  Opponents of Moammar Gadhafi repelled an attack by the Libyan leader's forces trying to retake a key coastal oil installation in a topsy-turvy battle Wednesday in which shells splashed in the Mediterranean and a warplane bombed a beach where rebel fighters were charging over the dunes. At least six people were killed in the fighting.
> 
> The assault on the Brega oil port was the first major regime counteroffensive against the opposition-held eastern half of Libya, where the population backed by mutinous army units rose up and drove out Gadhafi's rule over the past two weeks.
> 
> Rebels push back Libya regime attack on oil port - Yahoo! News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .
> 
> And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy.  There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.
> 
> American interest indeed. . . .
Click to expand...


Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.

_That's less than 10%_

How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"

It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> And so. . . .
> 
> Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reuters) - Oil prices jumped to near 2-1/2 year highs on Wednesday after an airstrike near Libya's oil infrastructure kept the market braced for a prolonged disruption from the OPEC nation and worried unrest might spread to other regional producers.
> 
> Fresh airstrikes hit Brega, about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from a Libyan oil terminal, after embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi launched a land and air offensive to retake territory in Libya's east.
> 
> The reprisal sparked calls from rebels for foreign air strikes on African mercenaries they said were helping him stay in power.
> 
> Oil surges after Libya airstrike near oil terminal | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BREGA, Libya  Opponents of Moammar Gadhafi repelled an attack by the Libyan leader's forces trying to retake a key coastal oil installation in a topsy-turvy battle Wednesday in which shells splashed in the Mediterranean and a warplane bombed a beach where rebel fighters were charging over the dunes. At least six people were killed in the fighting.
> 
> The assault on the Brega oil port was the first major regime counteroffensive against the opposition-held eastern half of Libya, where the population backed by mutinous army units rose up and drove out Gadhafi's rule over the past two weeks.
> 
> Rebels push back Libya regime attack on oil port - Yahoo! News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .
> 
> And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy.  There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.
> 
> American interest indeed. . . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.
> 
> _That's less than 10%_
> 
> How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"
> 
> It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.
Click to expand...


You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant?  Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk?   It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have.  Quite another in the things that keep the economy running.  Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/  You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation.  I am not too young to remember.  

I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune.  Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> And so. . . .
> 
> Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .
> 
> And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy.  There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.
> 
> American interest indeed. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.
> 
> _That's less than 10%_
> 
> How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"
> 
> It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant?  Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk?   It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have.  Quite another in the things that keep the economy running.  Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/  You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation.  I am not too young to remember.
> 
> I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune.  Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.
Click to expand...


Take a deep breath.

A $0.20 on top of $3.00/gallon doesn't mean you'll be pushing your car to the filling station


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.
> 
> _That's less than 10%_
> 
> How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"
> 
> It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant?  Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk?   It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have.  Quite another in the things that keep the economy running.  Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/  You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation.  I am not too young to remember.
> 
> I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune.  Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Take a deep breath.
> 
> A $0.20 on top of $3.00/gallon doesn't mean you'll be pushing your car to the filling station
Click to expand...


10% of $3.00 is $ .30 cents unless they've changed the rules on math.  The 'experts' are predicting $4.00 gasoline and higher if the oil fields remain at risk, however.  And the gasoline I put in my car is no big deal.  But gasoline shortages are a big deal when you need gasoline.  And fuel costs for long haul truckers and other industries who use large quantities of fuel are a big deal.


----------



## Kalam

Foxfyre said:


> So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .



I take it you felt similarly about the sanctions placed on Iraq in 1990.


----------



## Ropey

Kalam said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take it you felt similarly about the sanctions placed on Iraq in 1990.
Click to expand...


Deflection. This is about the unrest happening today, not 21 years ago.  

@ Foxfyre

I agree that these kinds of sanctions seldom hit the leadership, but they do serve to anger them and shunning does help.

There's no easy fix to such a thing, but truth be told, Obama has kept outside of the limelight so if he's doing much, it's behind the scenes. 

As a Chicago politician I would expect no less.


----------



## Foxfyre

Kalam said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take it you felt similarly about the sanctions placed on Iraq in 1990.
Click to expand...


At that time I hadn't thought about it a great deal.  But once we got in there and saw the deaths and extreme suffering that those 12 years of sanctions had heaped on the people while Saddam just got richer and built more lavish palaces with the Oil for Food monies, I have had a totally different perspective.


----------



## Kalam

Foxfyre said:


> At that time I hadn't thought about it a great deal.  But once we got in there and saw the deaths and extreme suffering that those 12 years of sanctions had heaped on the people while Saddam just got richer and built more lavish palaces with the Oil for Food monies, I have had a totally different perspective.



I understand. His response to being punished with sanctions was placing the entire burden on the backs of his own people; he was the worse kind of tyrant. But the effects those sanctions had on child mortality rates and the overall standard of living in the country were devastating, especially after the destruction of infrastructure during the war. Albright said that the childrens' deaths were 'worth it' but I have to disagree.


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant?  Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk?   It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have.  Quite another in the things that keep the economy running.  Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/  You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation.  I am not too young to remember.
> 
> I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune.  Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take a deep breath.
> 
> A $0.20 on top of $3.00/gallon doesn't mean you'll be pushing your car to the filling station
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 10% of $3.00 is $ .30 cents unless they've changed the rules on math.  The 'experts' are predicting $4.00 gasoline and higher if the oil fields remain at risk, however.  And the gasoline I put in my car is no big deal.  But gasoline shortages are a big deal when you need gasoline.  And fuel costs for long haul truckers and other industries who use large quantities of fuel are a big deal.
Click to expand...


Meh...quibling over a 10% vs a 7% (or should I say 6.67%?) vs a 15% vs a 33% change in gasoline prices doesn't mean there will be a _shortage_, and its still a far cry from the 1970 OIL EMBARGO. Will it have an effect on inflation? Sure, but we've had double digit inflation before, and the earth didn't spin off its axis.

_If_ I predict that prices _may rise_ to $4.00,_ IF_ oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?

I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!


----------



## Ropey

Samson said:


> _If_ I predict that prices _may rise_ to $4.00,_ IF_ oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?
> 
> I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!



You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects. 

So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.


----------



## Foxfyre

Ropey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> _If_ I predict that prices _may rise_ to $4.00,_ IF_ oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?
> 
> I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.
> 
> So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.
Click to expand...


  Hardly.  I BARELY passed Introduction to Physics and don't remember a whole lot of that,

But okay.  Samson is of the school that we've gone through hard times before and we'll get through these hard times in just as good shape.

Others are of the school that the die is cast and there's nothing much we can do about it.

I am of the school that notes the history that millions upon millions have suffered and died because they though "it isn't any worse than before' or 'it never happened before' or 'it couldn't happen here.'


----------



## Samson

Ropey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> _If_ I predict that prices _may rise_ to $4.00,_ IF_ oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?
> 
> I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.
> 
> So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.
Click to expand...


I prefer the term "Guru," or "Grande Pubah"


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> _If_ I predict that prices _may rise_ to $4.00,_ IF_ oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?
> 
> I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.
> 
> So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hardly.  I BARELY passed Introduction to Physics and don't remember a whole lot of that,
> 
> But okay.  Samson is of the school that we've gone through hard times before and we'll get through these hard times in just as good shape.
> 
> Others are of the school that the die is cast and there's nothing much we can do about it.
> 
> I am of the school that notes the history that millions upon millions have suffered and died because they though "it isn't any worse than before' or 'it never happened before' or 'it couldn't happen here.'
Click to expand...


Here, you may need a new avatar:


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.
> 
> So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hardly.  I BARELY passed Introduction to Physics and don't remember a whole lot of that,
> 
> But okay.  Samson is of the school that we've gone through hard times before and we'll get through these hard times in just as good shape.
> 
> Others are of the school that the die is cast and there's nothing much we can do about it.
> 
> I am of the school that notes the history that millions upon millions have suffered and died because they though "it isn't any worse than before' or 'it never happened before' or 'it couldn't happen here.'
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here, you may need a new avatar:
Click to expand...


Samson, I swear I love ya to pieces, but in this case. . . .


----------



## Ropey

Samson said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> _If_ I predict that prices _may rise_ to $4.00,_ IF_ oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?
> 
> I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.
> 
> So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I prefer the term "Guru," or "Grande Pubah"
Click to expand...


How about "Fred"?  




The original Grand Poobah!!!


----------



## Foxfyre

Just a quick update as I'm on my way to bed tonight. . . .

Lybian warplane shot down--extreme carnnage now as government fires on protesters.  Obama Administration deciding whether to intervene or not.

What do you think?  Do you WANT Obama to intervene?

Meanwhile:



> *Kuwait square blocked after protest calls *From correspondents in Kuwait City From: AP March 09, 2011 4:49AM
> 
> POLICE have barricaded a main square in Kuwait's capital before planned protests for greater political freedoms that could bring another Gulf state into the surge for reforms around the Arab world.
> 
> The police cordons around Kuwait City's central Safat Square were a high-profile warning to demonstrators, but organisers used social media to point to alternative sites in attempts to keep a step ahead of the crackdown.
> 
> Although the calls for protests would mark the first in Kuwait since the stunning Arab uprisings, the oil-rich Gulf nation is no stranger to political showdowns.
> 
> Kuwait has the region's most powerful parliament and opposition MPs have waged open battles against the ruling system, including nearly bringing down the prime minister two times with no-confidence votes.
> 
> One of the protest slogans: "Leave! We Deserve Better!"
> 
> Read more: Kuwait square blocked after protest calls | News.com.au


----------



## Cain

Douger said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your best is almost certainly more than most people even attempt to give, and thank you for your service.
> 
> My hope is that people like you won't be thrown away or sacrificed or put at risk for anything that you would not choose to fight for whether or not you are in the military.  And I would feel completely blessed and at peace if I could see a world that intercepted and stopped the bad guys before they could create chaos and our young men and women would never need to be put at risk in war again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, to be honest, my contract says I will follow orders, and that is all I know to do at this point. I mean, if they tell me to go in and attack a nation, I will, and I only have hope it is for the right reasons. I may sound like a robot or something, but frankly, that's how I see it.
> 
> Thanks for thanking me, but I am just ready to ship out and get through Basic/Tech School and finally get to wear the Air Force ABU, that is going to be a moment in my life I'll never forget.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And if they order you to bomb Houston or Chicago ? "Just following orders sir".
> Idiot.
Click to expand...


You assume because I am going into the Air Force I will become a bomber pilot? Yea, I'm the idiot, of course.


----------



## Foxfyre

Update:  Apparently the U.S.A., France, and Britain--mostly the U.S.--are now actively enforcing the recent no fly zone U.N. mandate in Lybia with rockets, bombers, and fighter planes.

Police action?   On TV, it sure does look like what war looks like.


----------



## rikules

SFC Ollie said:


> We obviously should start thinking about pulling troops back to defensible borders....
> 
> Ya just never know.....



this makes sense to me....

but i also believe that the US and our allies might actually be able to prevent WWIII

most of the strongest nations in the world (china, russia, eastern europe, europe) don't want WWIII

and most of the not3rdworldshitholes also don't want it...

if the Middle East were to erupt into total chaos and violence I believe that the more sane and rational countries would be able to contain MOST of that insanity in the ME


even if some of that violence manifested itself in the USA and Europe I don't believe we would descend into wwiii


most of us are kinda happy with the way things are


----------



## Foxfyre

I think things won't be 'the way they are' if enough crazies get hold of most of the Middle East oil production and supply though.  Lybia has I think about 2% of the world's oil supply, and disruption of that little bit has caused financial ripples through the developed nations of the world.  Can you imagine what it would be like if Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and other major oil producers fell into maniac hands?

That is why general unrest in so much of the Middle East is more than just a curiosity.


----------



## Foxfyre

And this today from Israel almost certainly because most of the media and world attention is focused on Lybia today. . . .



> Mar 19, 3:31 PM EDT
> Hamas fires dozens of mortars at Israel
> By IAN DEITCH
> Associated Press
> 
> JERUSALEM (AP) -- Palestinian militants in Gaza fired more than 50 mortar shells into Israel on Saturday, the heaviest barrage in two years, Israeli officials said, raising the prospect of a new Mideast flareup.
> 
> Also Saturday, Hamas police beat reporters and news photographers covering a rally in Gaza City, drawing a stiff condemnation from the reporters' association.
> 
> Israel invaded Gaza two years ago to put a stop to daily rocket barrages by Gaza militants, and Saturday's exchange showed how the conflict could quickly spiral out of control. Gaza's Hamas rulers are thought to be trying to avoid another Israeli invasion, after the last one caused widespread damage, killed more than 1,400 and left the territory under blockade, but Hamas claimed responsibility for some of the mortar rounds.
> 
> A Hamas official was killed and four civilians were wounded when Israel hit back with tank fire and air strikes, said Gaza Health Ministry spokesman Adham Abu Salmia.
> 
> Israeli police spokesman Tamir Avtabi said Gaza militants fired 54 mortar shells at Israeli border communities within 15 minutes. He said two Israeli civilians were lightly wounded by shrapnel, and residents were advised to stay at home or in bomb shelters.
> 
> Hayim Yellin, head of the Eshkol region where the mortars exploded, said they were the same type as those intercepted last week on a cargo ship loaded with weapons Israel said were sent by Iran to Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip. . . .
> News from The Associated Press


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> And this today from Israel almost certainly because most of the media and world attention is focused on Lybia today. . . .]


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this today from Israel almost certainly because most of the media and world attention is focused on Lybia today. . . .]
Click to expand...


That's pretty much what the guy who paid just under $2,000 to fill up his 18-wheeler at the truck stop said this morning.


----------



## Samson

Foxfyre said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this today from Israel almost certainly because most of the media and world attention is focused on Lybia today. . . .]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's pretty much what the guy who paid just under $2,000 to fill up his 18-wheeler at the truck stop said this morning.
Click to expand...


18 wheelers don't have 20 gallon tanks.


----------



## Foxfyre

Just to keep updating to track the news getting crowded off the front pages by more compelling stuff just now:

In Syria:



> BEIRUT -- Syrian police sealed off a southern city Saturday after security forces killed at least five protesters there in the first sign that the Arab world's pro-democracy push is seeping into one of the region's most repressive places.
> 
> Residents of Daraa were being allowed to leave but not enter the city on Saturday, said prominent Syrian rights activist Mazen Darwish. The quick cordon seemed aimed at choking off any spread of unrest after Friday's clashes and emotional funeral processions for the dead on Saturday.
> 
> President Bashar Assad, who has boasted that his country is immune to the cries for change that have already toppled leaders in Egypt and Tunisia, sent a delegation to the southern city to offer his condolences to families of the victims, according to a Syrian official.
> 
> Serious disturbances in Syria would be a major expansion of the region's unrest. Syria, a predominantly Sunni country ruled by minority Alawites, has a history of brutally crushing dissent.
> 
> Security forces launched a harsh crackdown on Friday's demonstrations calling for political freedoms. Protests took place in at least five cities, including the capital, Damascus. But only in Daraa did they turn deadly.
> 
> Syrian Forces Seal Off City After Clashes Kill 5



And I was reading earlier today that Senegal intercepted a planned protest and probable attempted coup and arrested some folks this weekend.  I don't remember where I saw it though.  If I can find it will post a link in the morning.


----------



## Foxfyre

Bumping thread back to active.....back shortly with an interesting question.


----------



## Foxfyre

Following the news for the last couple of weeks, the situation in Egypt and Jordan remains tense, unrest in Syria is almost on a par with Lybia, other small demonstrations and protests continue in Morocco, Senegal, Yemen, Kuwait, and elsewhere and there is still uncertain stability in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and other 'unsettled' nations.  Rocket attacks on Israel have resumed from Gaza.

Coincidence?  Copy cat behavior?  Or is there any validity to rumors we are reading around the edges of involvement of the Muslim Brotherhood and al Qaeda who may or may not involve some of the same people?

Today High Gravity on Libo's 'bombing' thread raised this question which I though was a really good one and I can't answer it.  Can any of you?



> Ghaddafi came to the table, renounced terrorism, gave up his WMD's, helped us track Al Qaeda in his country, gave reparations to the victims from Lockerbie and re-established diplomatic relations with the West. What happened to make us throw him under the bus for a bunch of Al Qaeda allied rebels?



It wasn't all that long ago that Gadhafi and President Obama met as heads of state. . . .

(also courtesy of HG's research):


----------



## High_Gravity

Foxfyre said:


> Following the news for the last couple of weeks, the situation in Egypt and Jordan remains tense, other small demonstrations and protests continue in Morocco, Senegal, Yemen, Kuwait, and elsewhere and there is still uncertain stability in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and other 'unsettled' nations.  Rocket attacks on Israel have resumed from Gaza.
> 
> Coincidence?  Copy cat behavior?  Or is there any validity to rumors we are reading around the edges of involvement of the Muslim Brotherhood and al Qaeda who may or may not involve some of the same people?
> 
> Today High Gravity on Libo's 'bombing' thread raised this question which I though was a really good one and I can't answer it.  Can any of you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ghaddafi came to the table, renounced terrorism, gave up his WMD's, helped us track Al Qaeda in his country, gave reparations to the victims from Lockerbie and re-established diplomatic relations with the West. What happened to make us throw him under the bus for a bunch of Al Qaeda allied rebels?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't all that long ago that Gadhafi and President Obama met as heads of state. . . .
> 
> (also courtesy of HG's research):
Click to expand...


The Bush Administration put in years of work to get the Libyans to come to the table and renounce their WMD program, so we could re-establish diplomatic relations with them and get a crack at those juicy multi billion dollar oil contracts.






So my thing is this, whats changed? why are we so quick to throw our hat in the ring with a bunch of ragtag Al Qaeda allied rebels? Ghaddafi did everything we asked him to do, and we still raped him.


----------



## Ropey

This has been on the US agenda for a long time. Ghaddafi was an irritant to the US for a long time. One must not slip up when one is so, eh?

So was Iraq. So 'is' Iran.

There's others on that list as well.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Seems as though Washington just doesn't have a clue what they are doing.....

But then, we knew that.....


----------



## Foxfyre

SFC Ollie said:


> Seems as though Washington just doesn't have a clue what they are doing.....
> 
> But then, we knew that.....



But don't you think it curious?  Obama's world apology tour included almost all the main Muslim heads of state with assurance that we wanted peace, good will, justice, clean living etc. etc. etc. or whatever sounded good at the time.  He essentially begged their forgiveness for our arrogance, our improper meddling and lack of appreciation for their culture, etc. etc. etc.

So what is it now with supporting the rebels in Egypt?   And militarily supporting the rebels in Lybia?  And so far stony silence of the wholesale slaughter going on in Syria, but I suspect that will change if it starts generating a lot of media coverage.

What's going on?


----------



## SFC Ollie




----------



## Foxfyre

In 2002:



> (CNSNews.com)  President Barack Obama, as an Illinois state senator in 2002, said that using military force to topple a murderous dictator amounted to a dumb war and should be opposed.
> 
> The dumb war Obama was criticizing was the planned invasion of Iraq and the murderous dictator was its leader, Saddam Hussein. Obama, speaking at an anti-war rally in Chicago on Oct. 2, 2002 said that while Saddam was a brutal tyrant, that was not enough to justify using military force to remove him from power.



March 2011:



> In his March 28, 2011 speech justifying his decision to attack the government of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Obama cited Gadhafis record of brutality, saying that allowing Gadhafi to continue his brutality was not an option.



Obama in 2002: Toppling Brutal Dictator a

Now I know people change their perspective over time and this was a time of nine years with the President now experiencing the realities of the presidency rather than speculating and opining from a detached and partisan driven point of view.  So I can see how he might have genuinely felt one way in 2002 but have a changed perspective in 2011.

He would be more reassuring however if he would articulate the process and reasons for a change of heart instead of reversing his reasons without explanation and pretending that was sufficient.


----------



## Douger

Achoo !


----------



## SFC Ollie

Foxfyre said:


> In 2002:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CNSNews.com)  President Barack Obama, as an Illinois state senator in 2002, said that using military force to topple a murderous dictator amounted to a dumb war and should be opposed.
> 
> The dumb war Obama was criticizing was the planned invasion of Iraq and the murderous dictator was its leader, Saddam Hussein. Obama, speaking at an anti-war rally in Chicago on Oct. 2, 2002 said that while Saddam was a brutal tyrant, that was not enough to justify using military force to remove him from power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> March 2011:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In his March 28, 2011 speech justifying his decision to attack the government of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Obama cited Gadhafis record of brutality, saying that allowing Gadhafi to continue his brutality was not an option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obama in 2002: Toppling Brutal Dictator a
> 
> Now I know people change their perspective over time and this was a time of nine years with the President now experiencing the realities of the presidency rather than speculating and opining from a detached and partisan driven point of view.  So I can see how he might have genuinely felt one way in 2002 but have a changed perspective in 2011.
> 
> He would be more reassuring however if he would articulate the process and reasons for a change of heart instead of reversing his reasons without explanation and pretending that was sufficient.
Click to expand...


The amazing thing is that the Obamabots don't see anything wrong...


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## Samson

SFC Ollie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 2002:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CNSNews.com)  President Barack Obama, as an Illinois state senator in 2002, said that using military force to topple a murderous dictator amounted to a dumb war and should be opposed.
> 
> The dumb war Obama was criticizing was the planned invasion of Iraq and the murderous dictator was its leader, Saddam Hussein. Obama, speaking at an anti-war rally in Chicago on Oct. 2, 2002 said that while Saddam was a brutal tyrant, that was not enough to justify using military force to remove him from power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> March 2011:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In his March 28, 2011 speech justifying his decision to attack the government of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Obama cited Gadhafis record of brutality, saying that allowing Gadhafi to continue his brutality was not an option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obama in 2002: Toppling Brutal Dictator a
> 
> Now I know people change their perspective over time and this was a time of nine years with the President now experiencing the realities of the presidency rather than speculating and opining from a detached and partisan driven point of view.  So I can see how he might have genuinely felt one way in 2002 but have a changed perspective in 2011.
> 
> He would be more reassuring however if he would articulate the process and reasons for a change of heart instead of reversing his reasons without explanation and pretending that was sufficient.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The amazing thing is that the Obamabots don't see anything wrong...
Click to expand...


What choice do they have?


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## High_Gravity

Foxfyre said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems as though Washington just doesn't have a clue what they are doing.....
> 
> But then, we knew that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you think it curious?  Obama's world apology tour included almost all the main Muslim heads of state with assurance that we wanted peace, good will, justice, clean living etc. etc. etc. or whatever sounded good at the time.  He essentially begged their forgiveness for our arrogance, our improper meddling and lack of appreciation for their culture, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> So what is it now with supporting the rebels in Egypt?   And militarily supporting the rebels in Lybia?  And so far stony silence of the wholesale slaughter going on in Syria, but I suspect that will change if it starts generating a lot of media coverage.
> 
> What's going on?
Click to expand...


The message we have sent the Arab countries is this, even if we are your friends, at the first sign of trouble and the first chance we get, we will stab you in the back and throw in our lot with the opposition, even if we don't know anything about them.


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## SFC Ollie

It is getting a bit confusing. I can understand and even support protecting innocent civilians in Libya. But that is not what we are doing. Seems like we have taken the side of the rebels and we don't even know for certain who they are or what they stand for.

This is a very dangerous game we are getting into here.


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## High_Gravity

SFC Ollie said:


> It is getting a bit confusing. I can understand and even support protecting innocent civilians in Libya. But that is not what we are doing. Seems like we have taken the side of the rebels and we don't even know for certain who they are or what they stand for.
> 
> This is a very dangerous game we are getting into here.



We know Ghaddafi and with him, you know what you are getting. He came to the table, renounced terrorism, gave up his WMD's, paid reparations to the Lockerbies victims families, helped us track Al Qaeda in his country and re-established diplomatic relations with the West. Why are we so quick to throw him under the bus and cast our lot in with the rebels when we don't even know who they really are?


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## Foxfyre

High_Gravity said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems as though Washington just doesn't have a clue what they are doing.....
> 
> But then, we knew that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you think it curious?  Obama's world apology tour included almost all the main Muslim heads of state with assurance that we wanted peace, good will, justice, clean living etc. etc. etc. or whatever sounded good at the time.  He essentially begged their forgiveness for our arrogance, our improper meddling and lack of appreciation for their culture, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> So what is it now with supporting the rebels in Egypt?   And militarily supporting the rebels in Lybia?  And so far stony silence of the wholesale slaughter going on in Syria, but I suspect that will change if it starts generating a lot of media coverage.
> 
> What's going on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The message we have sent the Arab countries is this, even if we are your friends, at the first sign of trouble and the first chance we get, we will stab you in the back and throw in our lot with the opposition, even if we don't know anything about them.
Click to expand...


Maybe that's the message.  Or maybe the intent is to use them as an excuse to support some ideology that was the intention all along?   We don't really know do we.


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## Foxfyre

And our own partisan divisions are making it pretty difficult to get anybody to focus on anything but that.


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## Foxfyre

It has long been noted, by at least some, that the U.N. is a politically and ideologically impotent organization with no gut or inclination to enforce world peace or even promote it except in the case of a select few.

It did authorize via resolution a no fly zone over Lybia without including any dates that it would begin or end, without committing any funds to support it, and without assigning anybody to implement it.

Re recent violence in Yemen, Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia unless I missed something in the last few months:  crickets.

***************************************

It is obvious that those hoping that NATO would come to Obama&#8217;s rescue, NATO will not be doing that:



> *NATO Rules Out Arming Rebels *
> MARCH 31, 2011, 5:22 P.M. ET
> 
> BRUSSELS&#8212;Officials at the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which early Thursday assumed control of allied operations to enforce the United Nations mandate in Libya, said they aren't considering arming Libyan rebels.
> Simmering debate in Washington and Europe about whether to arm rebel groups and intensified amid the opposition's recent retreat from territory they had gained under the umbrella of coalition airstrikes.
> 
> NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters in Stockholm that he has taken note of the "ongoing discussion in a number of countries" about arming the rebels but "as far as NATO is concerned...we will focus on the enforcement of the arms embargo," which he said applies "across the board to all sides in this conflict."
> NATO Rules Out Arming Rebels - WSJ.com



And now that we have spent millions installing air attack capabilities near Lybia and have dropped a lot of very expensive and no doubt deadly bombs already, NOW President Obama is wanting to know who the rebels are???????

Perhaps somebody will have better memory than I do, but isn&#8217;t the following story a bit of de ja vu when we think back on the incremental steps that got us involved in a ten year bloody war in Vietnam?




> *In Libya, CIA is gathering intelligence on rebels*
> March 30, 9:32 PM
> 
> The Obama administration has sent teams of CIA operatives into Libya in a rush to gather intelligence on the identities and capabilities of rebel forces opposed to Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi, according to U.S. officials.
> 
> The information has become more crucial as the administration and its coalition partners move closer to providing direct military aid or guidance to the disorganized and beleaguered rebel army.
> 
> Although the administration has pledged that no U.S. ground troops will be deployed to Libya, officials said Wednesday that President Obama has issued a secret finding that would authorize the CIA to carry out a clandestine effort to provide arms and other support to Libyan opposition groups.
> In Libya, CIA is gathering intelligence on rebels - The Washington Post



And if the situation in Syria boils over enough will that be a fourth front?

And you KNOW there are some just itching for a reason to invade Iran and take care of those nukes.

Is anybody paying attention to any of this?


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## SFC Ollie

People won't wake up to the truth until they start getting their draft notices. But as long as it's Obama that will be OK too. As long as it isn't them getting the notice.....


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