# I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.



## Luddly Neddite (Dec 16, 2012)

'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America



> Fridays horrific national tragedy -- the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut -- has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says its easy to talk about guns. But its time to talk about mental illness.
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> I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.



The way we treat our mentally ill, we may as well still be back in the Dark Ages.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 16, 2012)

The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 16, 2012)

How well has the alternative worked so far?


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

What a horrible story. I can't even begin to imagine what that's like.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that it's the psychotropic drugs causing all these mental instabilities.


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

To be fair to katz, I'm pretty sure that it's commonplace in Germany and other countries to do that very thing.


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## L.K.Eder (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


> To be fair to katz, I'm pretty sure that it's commonplace in Germany and other countries to do that very thing.



do what thing?


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## Truthmatters (Dec 16, 2012)

metal illness is an illness and should be treated.


you need to have it available to EVERYONE.

BTW the body is attached to the head and does effect mental health.

You have to have comprensive full medical care for everyone even non citizens.


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## AmyNation (Dec 16, 2012)

If this shooting teaches us anything, I hope it to finally opens our eyes to how poorly we treat mental illness. 

If you're an adult, there is almost no help out there for you. I know mothers who have given up their rights to their teenagers, in hopes of getting their children help from the state, and I know adults who have reached out for help and been brushed off.


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## Zoom (Dec 16, 2012)

Treat the mentally ill?  What's next, universal health care?


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.



Actually it sounds like there isn't anywhere safe for her to send him. He's a danger to himself, his brothers, and himself. Not to mention the others at school. She had the sense to move him from 'gifted' classes to self-contained behavior disordered classes, though little teaching goes on in those classes, thus she referred to babysitting. 

Institutions that existed prior to the 1960's certainly left much to be desired, rather than improving, they were closed. When that meant mentally ill children, particularly violent children, the problem was dumped on the home. At 18 or even earlier, many stopped taking their meds, eventually leaving home and many our now the homeless. 

Sending a 13 year old, mentally ill boy to a juvenile detention complex doesn't seem the right choice for most. If though he managed to carry through with his threats in 2 or 3 years, he'll be treated as an 'adult.' That is certainly wrong.


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## AquaAthena (Dec 16, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> 'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America
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A picture of Adam Lanza's mother, Nancy, before he removed her face:


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## Truthmatters (Dec 16, 2012)

he was 20 years old folks.

legally she couldnt do something without his co operation


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## GHook93 (Dec 16, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> 'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America
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I love the liberal naive argument of the mental health or lack thereof. First, it's not true, there are mental health clinics both private and public all over the country. Most health insurance covers mental health (shrink visits). Second, if a monster is going to do what this guy did, then mental help health isn't probably not going to prevent it. Remember the batman killer was seeking mental health help. Third, the only way it may be prevent is forced institutionalization prior to a crime being committed. You can be 'committed' anymore unless you commit a crime first. I guarantee the libs would be against forced institutionalization (as would the conservatives). 

The ONLY way to stop this is to STOP making these places EASY targets. Mass shooters are ALWAYS cowards they pick the targets so they can kill numerous UNARMED and HELPLESS victims!


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## Truthmatters (Dec 16, 2012)

Oh wait Im wrong.

she could have stored her guns so he couldnt get them


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## Truthmatters (Dec 16, 2012)

She was killed with her own guns.

so were the kids.


she taught him how to shoot and took him to the gun range.

her worship of guns made him a more effective killer


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

AmyNation said:


> If this shooting teaches us anything, I hope it to finally opens our eyes to how poorly we treat mental illness.
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> If you're an adult, there is almost no help out there for you. I know mothers who have given up their rights to their teenagers, in hopes of getting their children help from the state, and I know adults who have reached out for help and been brushed off.



Luddie's example was a prime example of a mentally ill child, one that is and has been 'treated.' Both at school and in hospitals. He's on meds. What I'm seeing is that the mother knows that one day soon, he'll do something that requires jail. Why isn't there the institutions that used to remove the 'threats' to society, using sedation when called for? 

Oh yes, I studied the horror stories and far too many were certainly true. Just the other day scores of skeletons were found on the property of one such in FL. 

However rather than reforming, they were shut down. They would go to 'group homes' or 'half-way houses' and their 'home parents' could distribute meds and all would be well. Didn't work out that way. Responsible parents have no where safe to put these kids. Until they do something to end up in prison, often charged as an adult.


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

L.K.Eder said:


> bobcollum said:
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Institutionalize the mentally disabled. 

I could be wrong, I'm not from Germany, but that's what I've been told by some that have spent time there in the military.


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## Truthmatters (Dec 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> AmyNation said:
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then she should have NEVER taught him to shoot a nd give him access to her guns


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## Truthmatters (Dec 16, 2012)

She was a big gun nut.

that was where she went wrong


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> She was a big gun nut.
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> that was where she went wrong



Really, she went wrong when she allowed her son, who had obvious mental issues, easy access to said guns.


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## AquaAthena (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.



Yes, I do agree.

Many families have taken their children with new and strange behaviors, to "experts" in the mental illness fields only to be frustrated with no progress in their child who is often exhibiting an escalating pattern of bizarre behaviors. And after the child is 18, no therapist can reveal to the parents anything about the child/adult. Confidentiality clauses.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> Katzndogz said:
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> > The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.
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There were places that the insane went.   I'm sorry that no one can see a causal relationship to closing insane asylums and a rise in attacks by the insane.   As well as a rise related to treating mental illness as if it was a broken leg.   Instead of helping, all the efforts to "treat" the insane as if they were normal have made things worse.  Putting them in regular classes to mainstream them made things worse.   Punishing those who indentify the insane has made things worse.  Look at this mother.   She wants help to maintain her son as if he wasn't insane.  What he needs to be is removed to someplace where the cannot hurt anyone.  He can't be treated, or medicated unless he's sedated into being comatose.  No matter what is done, it's not enough accommodation, not enough understanding, enough of something.  

More than that, we provide excuses for the insane to be even more insane than they are.   Everything is an excuse.  Everything is reasoned away into being someone else's fault.  Can't keep guns away from the crazies?   Take them away from everyone.   It's insane as it is.   The same kind of sick society that has courts allowing serial child molesters to live close to where children are apt to congregate is the same kind of sick society that refuses to protect the normal from the criminally insane.


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


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Exactly my point. There are reasons that prisons today are crowded with the mentally ill, there were no alternatives once they became able to reject meds. One thinks that's 18, but it too often is much earlier, as the mother in Luddie's article stated, 'right now I'm stronger, but that won't be true for much longer.' Now if he becomes sufficiently dangerous at school, the school may change his IEP to an alternative residential placement, but that will end when the school is no longer required to pay for. Due to costs, only the most dangerous in schools get that type of placement.


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## Truthmatters (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


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and trained him at the gun range how to shoot


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


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That doesn't really matter, having access to the weapons unchecked was what enabled him to do what he did.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


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Quite so.  She refused to accept his insanity.   No doubt when he was a child she went to fight for him if the school tried to remove him from association with normal children.  No one is gonna call MY kid different!   Lanza's mother was going to teach him how to shoot, make sure he was on the basketball team and kept a close eye on whether or not he was excluded from anything.

Lanza's father and brother both had stopped having anything to do with Adam once he got too bad off.   It would be interesting to know whether Mother's devotion to her insane son was a reason for the divorce a few years ago.   There is a special crime of those who hang on too long pretending that nothing is wrong.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


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And that was his mother's fault.  Lanza tried to buy a gun on his own, but was denied.  The system worked, but his mother just loved him too much for the system to help her, or him.


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


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Exactly. 

How many mothers do you know that would willingly accept that their child is a threat to society? Probably few to none.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


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Even when they know, they still think it's someone else's fault.  But, yes, most of the time the loving mother is in such deep denial that they are usually the first ones murdered.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


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That may not be the case. She may have been stopping him from accessing her guns, which could be why he murdered her first.

There's a reason he killed her, and it may not be not known to the general public at this time.


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


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This is why many times, I shrug my shoulders at people that claim it's only the irresponsible gun owners, because really, everyone is responsible until something happens to prove otherwise.


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


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If she was stopping him from accessing them, he wouldn't have been able to access them. Seems simple enough.


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

I can't help wondering how many read the link at the first post?


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

I did, why?


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## Jos (Dec 16, 2012)

*List of school shootings known to be linked to SSRIs*

Index to SSRI Stories


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## Katzndogz (Dec 16, 2012)

This is the second worst school shooting tragedy.  The first was Virginia Tech.  What went wrong at Virginia Tech?   Women didn't like Cho?  He couldn't get a girlfriend?  What?  Because it was the SAME reason.  A refusal to remove someone obviously insane.  

Cho, 23, fired more than 100 shots at his 32 victims, many of whom were crouched in defensive positions at the time they were killed.

Earlier, Cho had been detained by campus police investigating allegations that he was stalking female students, and he was held at a nearby private mental health facility. Officials deemed him to be an "imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness," but he still ended back on campus.
Virginia Tech shooting: `We are looking absolutely everywhere' - latimes.com

Had Cho been kept in a secure facility those 32 people would be alive today.


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## Jos (Dec 16, 2012)

Was he given Anti-depression medication?


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


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He could have gotten her out of the way by killing her. After that, he's free to do as he wishes with no restraint. People with his disorder do not have emotional ties to other people. There's a disconnected plug in the brainworks. Sociopathic people may have brain chemicals that function improperly. They may have been born with the defect, or they may be vicims of something called "shaken baby syndrome," where a parent threw a kid up in the air, caught him, brain matter is jolted loose from its fittings. Or shaken the kid when correcting him. Or the kid could have fallen on his head, shaken something loose all by his clumsy little self. Climbed up a ladder and fell off a roof? Accident jolted in a car hit by someone? Lots of reasons people get clobbered in their head hard while growing up. Cord wrapped around neck too tightly can cause brain cells whithering--too many possibilities to mention, and no one may ever know what happened to make someone have actions and thoughts going in different directions.

Brain disconnects happen. Sociopaths are definitely people with disconnected neurons somewhere in the path between thinking and acting out.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> I can't help wondering how many read the link at the first post?


I read it.


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


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The point is she was killed with the guns he supposedly didn't have access to, so I think that would mean they were accessible.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


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You're speculating and so am I. Let's wait for the details to come out, shall we?


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


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I thought that was a known fact, maybe it isn't.


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## AmyNation (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


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Everything I've read says he shot his mother, then went to the school, shot the entrance up to gain access and then made it through 2 classrooms before killing himself.


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## AmyNation (Dec 16, 2012)

"Lanza, 20, killed his mother at the home they shared, shooting her in the face with her own gun, before driving three miles to the school in Newtown, Connecticut."


Connecticut school massacre: Gunman's mother taught him to shoot - Telegraph

"What we know is he shot his way into the building. He was not buzzed in," Malloy said. "He penetrated the building by literally shooting an entrance into the building. That's what an assault weapon can do for you."
Connecticut school shooting: Latest developments - CNN.com


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## mudwhistle (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> metal illness is an illness and should be treated.
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Write a check then.


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## Jos (Dec 16, 2012)

AmyNation said:


> "Lanza, 20, killed his mother at the home they shared, shooting her in the face with her own gun, before driving three miles to the school in Newtown, Connecticut."
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reports state the rifle was found in the car


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


> I did, why?



The post seemed to be about how we are NOT dealing with mental health in the US. There are disturbed people that should be institutionalized before they end up suicides or suicide by cops. Of course some will simply commit assaults, not murders and end up repeatedly jailed. 

When these issues become apparent in the adolescent years and treatment, meds aren't doing the job, more drastic measures are needed. Much less drastic though than prison however, with fewer other losses that seem to repeatedly happening without the alternative care.


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## AmyNation (Dec 16, 2012)

Jos said:


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According to CNN

"Adam Lanza was found dead next to three guns -- a semiautomatic .223-caliber rifle made by Bushmaster and two handguns made by Glock and Sig Sauer, a law enforcement source told CNN. All belonged to his mother.

Carver, who performed autopsies on seven of the victims, said the wounds he knew about were caused by a "long weapon" and that the rifle was the primary weapon used."


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## Jos (Dec 16, 2012)

[ame=http://youtu.be/OyPuE314SDQ]Can Antidepressants Cause Violence? - YouTube[/ame]


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

Annie said:


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Instead it's turned into like the 20th gun control thread.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> 'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America
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In the dark ages they burned them at the stake. Besides, it is mostly the gun control wackos that want to lock up mentally ill people because it is good for them, the rest of us believe that even crazy people deserve dignity and self respect.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> metal illness is an illness and should be treated.
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A lot of things that we call mental illness are actually personality disorders. If we could cure them we could cure homosexuality.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

AmyNation said:


> If this shooting teaches us anything, I hope it to finally opens our eyes to how poorly we treat mental illness.
> 
> If you're an adult, there is almost no help out there for you. I know mothers who have given up their rights to their teenagers, in hopes of getting their children help from the state, and I know adults who have reached out for help and been brushed off.



The sad part is that there is actually plenty of help, it is just so mired in red tape only the most desperate can get to it.


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


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For the non-violent, I guess one can say, "They want to live that way, not taking their meds, unable to hold a job, have friends, perhaps become homeless." For those that become violent when upset? No, they do not belong amongst the unsuspecting. They should be forced by courts to be in residential centers for the purpose of giving them the care they need, meds to hopefully turn their lives around, and much more freedom than prison, which tends to be the choice of housing for so many today.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

Annie said:


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If the problem had been dumped on the home we might actually have a solution by now, instead it was dumped on the schools when the feds declared that everyone had a right to get the exact same education. This dumped all those kids into the public school system, and put teachers that were trained to deal with normal children in charge of kids who are not normal. They cannot do this, and it is expensive to hire qualified teachers that are also qualified in psychiatric care, so schools resort to medicating children that cause problems.

And, no, i do not believe that medication causes violence. I do, however, believe that medication is not always the best solution, which is why these children should not be shoved into schools that are not equipped to handle them. 

The best thing to do is stop treating everyone the same and give parents options for treatment that work for their children. We also have to be harsh and recognize that it is not the responsibility of society to make sure everyone is healthy and sane. While laudable, it is impossible to pretend people like this do not exist and assume that more federal government oversight is the answer. Everyone needs to be treated on an individual basis, and anyone that cares about mentally ill should care about making sure the government does not set out a one size fits all policy that shoves everyone into the same box based on a label.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> metal illness is an illness and should be treated.
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Honey, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


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That has some merit for some issues. Not like that of this kid from OP or the one that shot up the school on Friday. She shooter's mom pulled him out of school and homeschooled-in high school. The kid was from accounts, easily found by honor roll publications, yet some 'school plan,' the mother disagreed with enough to stay home with a 17 year old. That sure sounds like there was a severe behavior issue, leading to IEP, something the school was going to insist upon probably via court, caused her to pull him out. He graduated, but I'll be that was via the homeschooling and individual testing. So far, we know nothing of his being on meds or any psychiatric care he may or may not have received. 

The boy in the article? On meds, with psychiatrists, been hospitalized it sounds repeatedly, police have been involved, has own social worker. School recommended pulling him from gifted program to self-contained BD, mother agreed. He's getting treatment and it's been ongoing, he's still pulling knives, punching, threatening murder and suicide, when he's upset. Can't guess what will upset him. He's brilliant, mostly under control, but when not under control? He could kill.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


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Insane asylums were not built for people like Adam Lanzer, they were built for people who are mostly harmless and no danger to anyone, it was just easier to stuff them in a hole and pretend they don't exist than see them everyday.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

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Maybe she just was grateful to have a normal kid after dealing with his older brother.


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## saveliberty (Dec 16, 2012)

Violent people need to be removed from society, mental illness is not a fitting excuse to allow someone to stay in society.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

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You think people should lose their civil rights simply because society thinks they are abnormal?


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## saveliberty (Dec 16, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


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If by abnormal you mean violent, then yes.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

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She exercised her parental tights to decide on the treatment she thought was best. Unless you have conclusive proof it resulted in what happened this week, it is irrelevant. Even if you have that proof you still have to prove that something else would have prevented it before you can start talking about alternatives.

In other words, all you have is speculation.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

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I took a course in college once that had a chapter on mental health. Experts agree that 95% of Americans are treated for one kind of mental illness or another during their lifetimes. Even if that were an exaggeration to sell a course or a book to a university administration, it probably means a lot of people at one time or another have at least one bout of depression or other issue relating to the health of their brain.

That would mean (taking into account exaggeration) having half of the nation placed in a mental institution for fear they will go off their meds and kill someone. That is not a sustainable figure.

The first trouble some criminals cause is the day they march upstairs to a library tower and start picking off people with an AK-47 like bullseyes on a target one bright and sunny day when everybody else is going about a normal life. 

Some people with worse mental conditions than the Newtown shooter will never kill or hurt anybody for a long lifetime. 

Average people aren't trained to deal with something like what happened that morning last week. They don't know that a person with a history of disease who announces he is going to kill someone Friday and you will hear about it in the news is more serious than another who says he hates someone so much he could just kill them (but never does anything about it.) We're looking for an onus when we should be looking for a solution. One consideration is to gather the mentally ill person's family members together and explain an outline of what must be done with that particular patient's screaming needs. Even then, 90% of the people still wouldn't know when to take that illness seriously. imho. Their first inkling something is wrong could be when they are laying on the floor, bleeding from the heart thinking "oh, noes. I should've listened to the psychologist/psychiatrist's explanation a little more carefully, now I've got about 60 more seconds before I pass out and die."


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Violent people need to be removed from society, mental illness is not a fitting excuse to allow someone to stay in society.



Society first has to decide what constitutes mental illness. Vincent Van Gogh had hallucinations, self mutilated, and showed every indication of bipolar disorder. If drugs had existed then, and courts had the power to do what you say, we wouldn't have had what, arguably, is the greatest artist of all time.

Personally, I enjoy art too much to insist we wipe out insanity.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

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I wouldn't mind getting rid of the police either.


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## jillian (Dec 16, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


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like most things, mental illness exists on a continuum. our laws allow for people to be institutionalized involuntarily if they are a danger to themselves or others, but there are time limits involved and the standard is, as it should be, very high.

but we should do better with treatment and support for families who are dealing with someone who is mentally ill.


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## April (Dec 16, 2012)

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As it is in this particalar case. I think that this young man was in danger of acting out and she chose to have a blind eye...which cost her and the children dearly. 
His mental state obviously was ignored and not treated...he needed to be istitutionalized away from the public  for the rest of his days. Why not? When all of this could have been prevented. 
Such a sad situation all the way around.


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## Zoom (Dec 16, 2012)

AquaAthena said:


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She did love her guns though.  Poor woman.  I feel for her and her surviving family.


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## jillian (Dec 16, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



but then who would force women to carry pregnancies to term?


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## AmyNation (Dec 16, 2012)

Like someone else said, mothers can be blind to their children's faults sometimes. She taught her mentally unstable son to shoot, and kept a half dozen guns in her home where he had was able to access them.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

jillian said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



We can always do better. I am just making the point that the best way to make it better is letting doctors and patients make their own decisions, not mandating that everyone get treatment as set out by law.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

jillian said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



One of these days you are going to figure out that, just because I oppose abortion, that does not mean i support forcing people to do something. Once you do it might be possible to have a rational conversation with you.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> 'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.*


the disorders listed are not medical they are made up disorders and no child should be on zyprexa


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuK1t474ei4]St. Petersburg Times Reports on Zyprexa - YouTube[/ame]


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > bobcollum said:
> ...



the medical model of mental illness if a fraud


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## Annie (Dec 16, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Emphasis has always been on violence. No, I don't think autistic kids in general or depressed people or OCD that's non-violent, etc., should be locked up for being 'abnormal.' I also don't believe that schizophrenics are better off on the street than in an environment where they can be medicated and kept safe. There was a time that parents could have these people put in sanitarium if they had the money. Another option was to make them wards of the state. That all disappeared for other than the retarded, pretty much in the 1960's. It was done for the right intentions and to save money. In actuality it paved the way to hell on earth for too many.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

Jos said:


> Was he given Anti-depression medication?



worse.. he was given ant-psychotics...


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

_so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist._


for these made up illnesses...

_, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder _


he would most likely be on kiddy crack..ritilain as well


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## Papageorgio (Dec 16, 2012)

eots said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Was he given Anti-depression medication?
> ...



This is the problems, we are giving children with every little problem, drugs. Drugs for ADD, ADHD, depression and on and on, many of these alter the thinking and the reasoning ability. We are a society of drug addicts, prescription and non-prescription, I really think we are seeing the results.

Now excuse me, I need a drink.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-VouCjp_eI]Risperdal® Side Effects in Children - Stephen Sheller on CBS Evening News - YouTube[/ame]


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

*its well known to cause violence..they have paid out big settlements but continue still because the profits are greater than the fines*


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHolKz6SZDs]Eli Lilly $1.42 Billion Zyprexa Settlement - Stephen Sheller on Fox News - YouTube[/ame]


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## Luddly Neddite (Dec 16, 2012)

AmyNation said:


> "Lanza, 20, killed his mother at the home they shared, shooting her in the face with her own gun, before driving three miles to the school in Newtown, Connecticut."
> 
> 
> Connecticut school massacre: Gunman's mother taught him to shoot - Telegraph
> ...



Definitely a situation where "more guns" didn't help anyone but the shooter.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

eots said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...


That's like saying skilled pipefitters who can lay pipelines that will not leak are not the best people to build safe gasoline stations in population areas. I can understand some of it, but imho, mental health professionals should be equipped to discern best who is and who is not fit to be out in society as safe and functioning individuals. I think they have challenges, though, eots, as mental health is a most complex issue. We need more science looking through microscopes to determine what brain chemistry is misfiring, and how to fix it. The reason that's difficult is that child behaviors (and adult) are often the product of neglect so off the wall you might not believe what you saw if you entered their home to find the child or young adult locked in a closet with all sensory stimuli omitted while a parent is so irresponsible he or she is not providing them with adult guidance and support in their time of needing adult supervision. OTOH, the child may be a true ninnyhammer of impatience, driving an immature adult to seek escape from the day-to-day responsibilities of child care due to media proffering certain habits as glorified pastimes for "normal" people that aren't all so normal as hollywierd shows them to be. And with politicos engaged in steamy debates over taboo issues of generations past, Hollywood tends to frame taboo behaviors as desirable ones. As their chief teachers, Hollywood is the hand that rocks the cradle in America while idiots believe all that they say. I recall a ruckus over a Hollywood production entitled "It Takes a Thief" as glorifying stealing, back when Robert Wagner was the drop-dead good-looking cat burglar who made a mint off people who "deserved" to have goods stolen from them.

Now, we have drop-dead, good-looking congresspersons lining up armored cars outside the US Treasury taking taxpayer money enroute to their state's family or friends' failed business ventures they voted 100% government guarantees for backing businesses going bankrupt prior to Congress granting this corrupt "gift payback" for generous campaign contributions.

They've made a mockery of the Congress' role in being a watchdog looking out for the taxpayer by diverting public money to themselves.

All because the few people who protested Hollywood's teaching influence on people wore horn-rimmed glasses, were a little overweight, might have dressed in last year's fashions, spoke without realizing their hair wasn't combed, you name it, so who won the debate? I'll tell ya. It wasn't the American people who used to abide by the rules, do their jobs well, made it a point to be on time, paid all their bills with what they brought home, and limited their credit spending to a sustainable amount that could be paid off at the end of the loan's term, no more than a year or two.

Your present government kingpin is cramming bad loans down bankers' throats, spending more than 3 generations can pay back and have a sustainable government in their future, etc.

Yet, here we are, talking about how we will help those who have mental issues not to have them any more without talking much about the progress being made on the science frontier, because laypeople political persons don't have the vocabulary as a general rule to read a JAMA or APA publication and understand the drift of what is being proffered and what is being proven.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > "Lanza, 20, killed his mother at the home they shared, shooting her in the face with her own gun, before driving three miles to the school in Newtown, Connecticut."
> ...



definitively a case where they drugged a boy with an off label medication
proven to cause violence..even after paying out record fines years ago for doing the same thing...


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > freedombecki said:
> ...



no.. its more like the takes a  normal pipe  then damages it so it leaks


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## mal (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> he was 20 years old folks.
> 
> legally she couldnt do something without his co operation



When he was younger she was too busy getting a $1.6 Million Dollar Home and $325,000 a year from her Husband...

I bet she was too busy Living the Good Life and Fighting with her Husband to pay Attention to the Animal they Created and Neglected until he took 26 Innoncent Lives on Friday...

Considering how he went to her School to Target those Angels after putting her down, she probably Rubbed that shit in his Metally Ill Face on a daily as her Crazy Ass was Stockpiling Food and Ammo for whatever Doomsday she Thought was coming...

He probably heard nothing but, "why couldn't you have been like them" and finally Snapped...

It's too bad she's not Still Alive to Answer for the Animal she was Housing. 

She Obviously had the Money and Resources to have gotten him some Help or put him where he couldn't Hurt others.



peace...


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## Intense (Dec 16, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> he was 20 years old folks.
> 
> legally she couldnt do something without his co operation



She could have better secured her fire-arms, if that was a problem, she should have removed them from her home.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

she could have read the  eli lilly pdf  on the drugs effects and realized they where the cause of the behavouires


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtKpbki5rbM]CCHR PSA: Antidepressants can cause suicides & violence - YouTube[/ame]


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## mal (Dec 16, 2012)

eots said:


> she could have read the  eli lilly pdf  on the drugs effects and realized they where the cause of the behavouires



And or added to his issues...

We used to House people who could do harm to others...

Because some of those places were Abusive, they all got painted that way.

We need to House some people in Society...

Somewhere that their Uninterested Parents can't let Violent Video Games and Movies be their Parent. 



peace...


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

yes the drug companies lobby for the magic pill as a cost and time saver..


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

eots said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


The thing I find most interesting about the legal end of the drugs debate is that those who have ADHD a lot--that was almost unseen when I was growing up, and it's almost a given now, that a lot of children have that. One of the things I picked up from your link (which linked to other links) is that one of the links said ADHD (other than heredity) was thought to be largely the property of a child whose mother *smoked* during her pregnancy.

 When I was studying human health administration, one of my classes was in addictions. In the chapter on alcohol, it was describing fetal alcohol syndrome as being caused during the developmental time of the first trimester, when certain cells were dividing. This disease causes a child born that will never compete intellectually and may have facial deformities--all because the mother had as few as one drink in the first trimester or a history of alcoholism (most cases). It never appears in women who never drink. Doh! So what do doctors do when the FAS baby is born? They do not bother to tell the mother she caused her baby's deformity! So what happens? The next pregnancies are at risk for the same issue! More kids are born with FAS out of ignorance imposed on the family by the doctor whose panacea is "do no further damage to the patient," the patient being the mother and her mental health. By not telling her she caused the problem, she is free to repeat the same problem on subsequent new additions to the family.  It didn't make sense to me, except I could understand not wanting to be the cause of depression in a mother who may be having post-partum issues as well.

Drinking while pregnant and smoking while pregnant seem to be a human race footshoot. That's where we could avert the problem entirely, but doctors won't get a spine overnight, and babies in the same family will repeat the disease until it is thought the disease is hereditary.

Also, our particular class got into a debate over what is hardest of all to prove--the father's habits causing problems in infants. They just don't know, because a guy might not remember being drunk or having participated in a cigar-smoking marathon the week the fusion of gametes took place.

Yet, in our society, it's leave me alone, it's my life, my body, my brain, my decision.  And in tomorrow, what about the life, body, brain, and ability to make decisions by posterity? These are the earnest issues of our lives, and people are too self-absorbed to care what is happening to the birthing end of things, where tomorrow's future leaders, speakers, athletes, statespersons, and decision-makers will be coming from.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > freedombecki said:
> ...



there is no proven genetic cause of any of these mental illnesses..it  is completely subjective..there is no medical test


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## saveliberty (Dec 16, 2012)

Not that hard to tell who has violent tendencies and is mentally off balance.  What is tough is figuring out who can control it with meds and function in sociiety.


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## Paulie (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


> What a horrible story. I can't even begin to imagine what that's like.
> 
> I'm becoming more and more convinced that it's the psychotropic drugs causing all these mental instabilities.



You should become COMPLETELY convinced, because it IS.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

eots said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


Your link is linked to areas of studies that implicate smoking during pregnancy as a strong indicator of producing an ADHD child. These studies may seem poor proof to someone who likes smoking and thinks they're gonna live forever, but for those of us who came up through understanding social measurement skills and obtaining information that is quite reasonably reliable, the writing is on the wall: a mother who smokes is a likelier candidate for having an ADHD child than one who does not smoke, has never smoked, does not allow smoking in her home, and who likely never will smoke so long as she has children under her roof.

Yes, you can have a quite probable case against smoking during pregnancy. It's not good for you, and it's hell on your fetus' developing brain.

If you saw some of the brain cat scans of FAS babies, you'd get it, Eots. There's areas of extremely vacuous areas on the scan map. IOW, ain't nothing there, baby, except you might find tear material from the scan operator who knows what she is looking at.

I've not seen scans of babies brains whose mothers were chain smokers during their pregnancy. I did hear of a horror story of an ADHD man killing 26 schoolchildren and acting like an antisocial paranoid schizophrenic during his adolescence. I don't know his mother's history. I just wonder if her gynecologist warned her of dangers of bad habits to the fetus if she had one. Or was he like other physicians who don't say too much in order to prosper his colleagues when sick minded babies are born.


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## Paulie (Dec 16, 2012)

Didnt the kid just have aspergers?  

That's not "mentally ill".


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## bobcollum (Dec 16, 2012)

Also potential personality disorders from what I've read.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

Paulie said:


> Didnt the kid just have aspergers?
> 
> That's not "mentally ill".


It was before December 3 when the APA decided to drop it from its list of Mental illnesses. I think they should review their decision as possibly a quite erroneous one considering the wake created last week by one of its sufferers.
IOW, it was listed as a mental illness in November. Aspberger's syndrome dropped from APA Manual December 3, 2012


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Didnt the kid just have aspergers?
> ...



the kid was on off label drugs known to cause violence that the drug companies have paid out record settlements for .. medical psychiatry is a fraud


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

bobcollum said:


> Also potential personality disorders from what I've read.



personality disorders are just more made up medical illness...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bguQkX1M1Pg]Psychiatrists On Psychiatry - YouTube[/ame]


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## Samson (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.





Where?

Do you have an extra room?


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## syrenn (Dec 16, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.



See how far you get if you even suggest pro actively locking up "the mentally ill" for the safety of the masses.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

Mental Health Research


Psychopathology

Last year, the team showed that artists and scientists were more common among families where bipolar disorder and schizophrenia is present, compared to the population at large. They subsequently expanded their study to many more psychiatric diagnoses -- such as schizoaffective disorder, depression, anxiety syndrome, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, autism, ADHD, anorexia nervosa and suicide -- and to include people in outpatient care rather than exclusively hospital patients.
The present study tracked almost 1.2 million patients and their relatives, identified down to second-cousin level. Since all were matched with healthy controls, the study incorporated much of the Swedish population from the most recent decades. All data was anonymized and cannot be linked to any individuals.
The results confirmed those of their previous study, that certain mental illness -- bipolar disorder -- is more prevalent in the entire group of people with artistic or scientific professions, such as dancers, researchers, photographers and authors. Authors also specifically were more common among most of the other psychiatric diseases (including schizophrenia, depression, anxiety syndrome and substance abuse) and were almost 50 per cent more likely to commit suicide than the general population.
Further, the researchers observed that creative professions were more common in the relatives of patients with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anorexia nervosa and, to some extent, autism. According to Simon Kyaga, Consultant in psychiatry and Doctoral Student at the Department of Medical Epidemiology and Biostatistics, the results give cause to reconsider approaches to mental illness.

Link between creativity and mental illness confirmed in large-scale Swedish study


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...



Therein lies the problem, until they actually do something, they aren't violent.


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## freedombecki (Dec 16, 2012)

eots said:


> Mental Health Research
> 
> Psychopathology
> 
> ...


I know many creative people in my community, eots. More of them are solid citizens, civil, hard-working, and productive citizens who give a lot of time to community benefits as well as work at day jobs. Sweden is in the land of the midnight sun belt. That has another side--short, short days in the winter with several days of near unending nights a couple of weeks a year. That would produce a lot of "seasonal affective disorder" with people who do not pay astute attention to bright lights indoors for at least 12 hours a day. I'm going to say Sweden's results might not have a par with people who live in the subtropics and tropics, possibly reflecting people so preoccupied with their work they forget about turning the lights up.

Or maybe I'm wrong and that was taken into account.


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## squeeze berry (Dec 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.
> ...



I teach a self-contained class with autistic students and i can assure you that there is instruction  every period of the day.


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

freedombecki said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > Mental Health Research
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdLNMEXWTL8]Vitamin D is better than ANY vaccine and increases the immune system by 3-5 times - YouTube[/ame]


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## April (Dec 16, 2012)

eots said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



I have no doubt that homeopathic remedies and the proper nutrition make a HUGE difference in mental and emotional health...my mom tried that with my brother...it only helped to a certain degree. He STILL needed his meds to help him cope with his illness.


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## mal (Dec 16, 2012)

Intense said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > he was 20 years old folks.
> ...



Training him to Shoot was probably a Poor Choice also... 



peace...


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## April (Dec 16, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> This thread is filled with bigots...I can't believe you guys are demonizing those suffering from mental disorders.



Answer me this Aristotle; how many mentally ill did you live with and practially raised as your own? 
I lived this my brothers entire existence...he's a ticking time bomb and  if he doesn't control it with the proper meds hes prescribed, he will be the next we read about shooting up a school or mall.


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## Politico (Dec 16, 2012)

Drugs drugs drugs drugs.......


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

AngelsNDemons said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > freedombecki said:
> ...



I posted this in regards to your comments on sunshine...if your brother has been on psych drugs he does now indeed them to remain stable but this does not mean they are the correct treatment..it only,means he is now addicted to the drug and will relapse on withdraw if not done very slowly..I have never seen anyone cured from medications ..I have seen several cured with orthomolecular medicine..which is not _homeopathic remedies _


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE2rpITjlhI]IFM Interview: Dr. Abram Hoffer and Dr. Jeffrey Bland - YouTube[/ame]


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

It is anecdotal to say your brother "needs his medication"...if he suddenly discontinues he will indeed suffer effects from the withdraw..but that is not evidence of needing the _medication_...or the so called _medications _as being the correct or best treatment for what is causing these behaviors


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## April (Dec 16, 2012)

Jos said:


> Can Antidepressants Cause Violence? - YouTube



Most of the time these people are prescribed antideppresensants...they DONT take them. 
So to blame the medication for the uprise of violence among the mentally ill, is not founded.
How can the medication be to blame if it's not taken as prescribed?


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## eots (Dec 16, 2012)

AngelsNDemons said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Can Antidepressants Cause Violence? - YouTube
> ...



fail...these facts come from controlled clinical trials by both the drug companies and independent  controlled studies


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## Noomi (Dec 17, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.



I see your point, but removing a child from his parents could do more harm than good in the long run.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 17, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> he was 20 years old folks.
> 
> legally she couldnt do something without his co operation



People can be committed against their will.


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## Annie (Dec 17, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > he was 20 years old folks.
> ...



Just try. If one can get a 72 hour commitment they are lucky and that is after they've attempted something that makes them a threat to themselves or others.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 17, 2012)

Annie said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Truthmatters said:
> ...



Not the point.

The mother had the legal ability to commit her son without his permission.


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## April (Dec 17, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > he was 20 years old folks.
> ...



Only as long as a family member has power of attorny over the individual...


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 17, 2012)

AngelsNDemons said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Truthmatters said:
> ...



Every state has a law for involuntary commitment.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 17, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> AngelsNDemons said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You would have to have a record of pyschiatric and mental issues right? I mean anyone can pick up and phone and accuse someone of something and try to have them commited.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 17, 2012)

Noomi said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.
> ...



It's almost like you think that a murderous child is somehow less murderous at home.  Odd that.  It will no doubt hurt the feelings of a deranged child.  Isn't that worth a few family members?  

It is bad enough to have to live among the anonymous insane.  What's worse is a degenerate and depraved culture that puts the feelings of the criminally insane above the lives of everyone.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 17, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > AngelsNDemons said:
> ...



In most states the cops can initiate the process with no prior history needed.


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## April (Dec 17, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> AngelsNDemons said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



The only way that can be, is for the state to take over...claiming him ward of the state, which must be approved by a judge first.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 17, 2012)

AngelsNDemons said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > AngelsNDemons said:
> ...



No.  The cops can initiate the process and effectively get anyone hospitalized for evaluation.

Whether or not the person ends up in the loony bin for an extended stay is up to the doctors then the courts but the laws exist


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## High_Gravity (Dec 17, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Thats kind of scary though, if I don't like someone I can just pick up the phone and start the process to have them commited.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 17, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



It happens but all laws can be misused.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 17, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



My mom tried to have my loser dopehead brother commited but it was harder than we thought, and he has a rap sheet a mile long going back 10 years.


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## saveliberty (Dec 17, 2012)

Sorry about the family issue HG.  Hope he is inspired sometime soon.  Seems like you're a good role model.


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## KissMy (Dec 17, 2012)

bobcollum said:


> To be fair to katz, I'm pretty sure that it's commonplace in Germany and other countries to do that very thing.



Not only does Germany incarcerate crazy people but they bans guns & other weapons.

Yet still the Erfurt massacre school massacre occurred at the Gutenberg-Gymnasium in Erfurt, Germany. The gunman, 19-year-old expelled student Robert Steinhäuser, shot and killed 16 people; comprising 13 faculty members, 2 students, and one police officer, before committing suicide. One person was also wounded by a bullet fragment.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 17, 2012)

AngelsNDemons said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > AngelsNDemons said:
> ...



There is a 72 hour evaluation period that police can use in most circumstances. It has to be vetted by a psych doctor before it is official, but it lets the police take them into the psych ER in the first place. The only reason a judge would have to get involved at that point is if the doctor really thinks he needs treatment and he flat out refuses it.


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## KissMy (Dec 17, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> 'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Back in my day the parents & teachers put the fear of god into their kids. Now the kids are untouchable & have the parents & teachers afraid of them.


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## depotoo (Dec 18, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> AngelsNDemons said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



After that window, if they are an adult, they must agree to commitment or a judge has to step in.  If they agree to commitment they are then able to walk out at any moment if a judge has not ordered it.  If an individual is truly deemed unsafe to themselves or others then a judge will usually take over immediately once convincing evidence is given.   Once that is done evaluations are done every so many days to decide if they are no longer a threat.   All of those processes take time, emergency hearings, psych evaluations ,etc.  And there has to be room for them in a state institution.  And once released there is noone truly following up on their medication compliance.  If anyone thinks it is truly easy to simply get an adult committed, they have never seen the process in action.


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## KissMy (Dec 18, 2012)

The relationship between school shootings and psychiatric drugs.

At least fourteen recent school shootings were committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 109 wounded and 58 killed;

Between 2004 and 2011, there have been over 11,000 reports to the U.S. FDA&#8217;s MedWatch system of psychiatric drug side effects related to violence


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## Katzndogz (Dec 18, 2012)

We allow the criminally insane out on the streets.   Mentally ill adults cannot be medicated against their will.   They cannot be stigmatized for being mentally ill.  They cannot be discriminated against.  They and their liberal supporters demand inclusion, tolerance and acceptance.


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## saveliberty (Dec 18, 2012)

Yet people try to focus on a stationary object, instead of the one filled with violent thoughts and ability to make to happen.


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## ChrisfromDenver (Dec 18, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> We allow the criminally insane out on the streets.   Mentally ill adults cannot be medicated against their will.   They cannot be stigmatized for being mentally ill.  They cannot be discriminated against.  They and their liberal supporters demand inclusion, tolerance and acceptance.



That damn bill of rights. . .

It is really tough 


I don't think there is a clear answer. ..
Even if you were covered by insurance, very few providers will accept the contracted rate (psychiatric).  

I haven't seen a lot of evidence. . maybe I just don't know. . .but do those things help?  I think medication may be a goal, but we don't have a magic pill yet. Somehow the Adam Lanza's of the world I don't think a "good talk" can help.


So there has always been (and always be) spree killing.  I think it comes down to a few core components:

1)  Media - I do think they play a role. 24x7 USA Fox/CNN/etc. . . these are copycats.
2)  Guns - access to firearms increase the chance of a armed crazy person.  Gun legislation will not keep guns out of criminals hands. . .but Spree Killers aren't normally criminals.
3)  healthcare - as addressed above.  How do other "free" countries take care of people like Lanza?


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## saveliberty (Dec 18, 2012)

The Bill of Rights doesn't give anyone the right to kill an innocnet person.  If it is reasonable to think a person is not capable of stopping themselves from killing, then their rights can be terminated.


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## ChrisfromDenver (Dec 18, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> The Bill of Rights doesn't give anyone the right to kill an innocnet person.  If it is reasonable to think a person is not capable of stopping themselves from killing, then their rights can be terminated.



Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough.

The bill of rights and our laws provide significant protections for the accused.  It is normal for these people (like Adam) to never of had a significant issue/run in/threat prior to the event.  He might of been crazy, but crazy and a clear danger is a hurdle that is VERY hard to prove and cross. Therefore, it is unlikely to commit people like Adam prior to the event.. . because he is innocent until proven guilty.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 18, 2012)

ChrisfromDenver said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > We allow the criminally insane out on the streets.   Mentally ill adults cannot be medicated against their will.   They cannot be stigmatized for being mentally ill.  They cannot be discriminated against.  They and their liberal supporters demand inclusion, tolerance and acceptance.
> ...



Armed crazy people don't have to be armed with guns.  Do you really think that a class of six year olds could take down a knife wielding maniac?


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## Mr. Jones (Dec 18, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The mentally ill should be removed and placed somewhere where they cannot harm others.   This mother wants someone to step in and fix her son.  He can't be fixed.  He can't be understood or accommodated.  He has to be removed and kept somewhere safe.



There have always been mentally unstable persons within societies, but with the new SSRI's being doled out by the pharma companies and the Drs. it has pushed some of these people over edges that has resulted in the rash of mass shootings and suicides. Data shows that these class of drugs are clearly NOT the answer, and yes the conversations should be about mental heath AND these drugs that are doing more harm then good., and are dispensed as a blanket solution and fix all for individuals, that need to be evaluated and cared for on a case by case analysis.

It is so typical that the solution that is being offered everywhere to this problem is the implementation of stricter gun laws and making the rest of the "normal" society acquiesce to even further restrictions and infringements of  THEIR rights. Problem, reaction, solution. It is the goal of the state to rid or to at least start to disarm Americans, and sadly 20 children's lives is of no significance to them.

They want the American public to think the problem is with firearms when the REAL problem is with the mental health of some individuals and the Pharma companies _solution_ to it.

It is not the guns that kill, it is the people that obtain them, and the medications they are given are the triggers, and people should know this by now.


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## Mr. Jones (Dec 18, 2012)

ChrisfromDenver said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > The Bill of Rights doesn't give anyone the right to kill an innocnet person.  If it is reasonable to think a person is not capable of stopping themselves from killing, then their rights can be terminated.
> ...



If a person like this woman's son has a history of psych problems and history of threatening to harm others, and himself, then exceptions and restrictions should  be made on THEM instead of taking guns away from those that wish to protect themselves from these people and criminals.

Perhaps these families who have a member with these sort of mental problems and history will have to be the ones who are made to refrain from having the firearms, or be made to severely secure them in a locked safe. Put the gun restrictions where the problem is instead of forcing everyone to pay for the deeds and problems of the few.

It isn't the guns or the magazines or the bullets, the problem is with the mental health and the medications side effects on the mentally unstable and sick.


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## saveliberty (Dec 18, 2012)

ChrisfromDenver said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > The Bill of Rights doesn't give anyone the right to kill an innocnet person.  If it is reasonable to think a person is not capable of stopping themselves from killing, then their rights can be terminated.
> ...



You were clear, just incorrect.


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## Jos (Dec 18, 2012)

AngelsNDemons said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Can Antidepressants Cause Violence? - YouTube
> ...



At school we used to try on someones glasses to see how bad they saw things without glasses, take those medications for a week, and then stop, you will have a good idea of what those drugs do after that


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 21, 2012)

I"ve been trying to find some info on all of this.  Specifically, it's been reported from Adam's classmates and neighbors who knew him and his mother that he had mental issues ... I"m still not sure what those 'issues' were.  Autism? Asperger's?  Something else?  Autism and Asperger's are mental disorders not diseases yet I see them referred to as a mental disease all the time.  

I found this:



> Sandy Hook School Officials Go On Record That Adam Lanza Was Once A Student,&#8221; reported WFMY on Dec. 18, 2012. &#8220;Janet Robinson, superintendent of Newtown Public Schools, said Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook elementary, although she could not remember the year.&#8221;
> 
> Learning disabilities, emotional disabilities, social disabilities and academic abilities are usually diagnosed during the elementary school years. Adam Lanza was in the public school system and there should be records available about an academic, social, or emotional diagnosis.
> 
> ...



Adam Lanza, Nancy Lanza: Questions and answers - San Diego Top News | Examiner.com

I wondered about this.  This kid had problems that likely did not just manifest themselves overnight or when he hit puberty, especially if these problems were in the social/emotional areas.  He was also noted as being 'gifted' and 'genius' with computers.  Kids with problems or gifted kids get IEPs every year, which sets the wheels in motion for them getting the services/assistant/help/therapies they may need, and they follow the kid from grade to grade and school to school.  Where are Adam Lanza's IEPs?  Did he even have any?  Did his parents ignore his problems and refuse to have them done?  I know his mother pulled him out of the school system to homeschool but that wasn't until he was in h.s.  What about all the previous years?

I also found this:



> One can imagine there isn&#8217;t a Special Education Director who isn&#8217;t wondering if they could do more to identify students with mental health disorders. In fact, there are some who know they can do more &#8211; *and the law requires them to do it. However, the administrative apparatus of the public school system is managed in a way that restricts access to the supports and services needed by children with mental illness or disabilities.
> 
> Too often, pressure from school Superintendents require Special Education Directors to reduce their budgets, thus leaving Directors no choice but to purposely deny eligibility, interventions, appropriate services and/or supports to children who need them. In essence, school districts claim these children are fine or they&#8217;re &#8220;cured&#8221; because they really don&#8217;t need interventions or services despite clear warning signs that something&#8217;s very wrong.
> 
> Adam Lanza was no exception. Educational professionals report they saw Adam Lanza&#8217;s problems as early as 9th grade. At Newtown High School, he was often having episodes and the protocol used by the school was to call his mother, Nancy Lanza, and have her come in to diffuse each crisis.



They saw his problems as early as 9th grade? This is off, I don't buy this.  If he was on the autistic spectrum his problems would have shown waaaaay before then.   The protocol was to call his mother to come and calm him down when he had an episode?  That was their solution?  What did his 'episodes' consist of?



> The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) includes a legal mandate requiring school districts, under the &#8220;Child Find&#8221; provision, to seek out and find children who exhibit significant problems at school, to include developmental and functional problems; not just academic problems. Most parents aren&#8217;t aware of this and the media and politicians won&#8217;t tell you about it, but all school districts know.
> 
> Under IDEA, anyone concerned about an individual can refer the student, confidentially, to the school district for assessment.
> 
> ...



Was Mrs. Lanza even aware of all of this?  Did she request help for Adam but didn't get it or get too little? Did they recommend a different facility for him other than public school and she rejected it and that's why she pulled him out of school?

There is just so much we don't know.

Being the parent of a special needs kid is difficult and it can be damn near paralyzing for some.  It's very easy for those who have never raised a kid like this to sit and judge or throw out well-meaning but impossible advice.  Everyone thinks they have the answer ... if only the Lanza's had done this or done that; meds aren't the answer, meds are the answer; he was insane lock him away, keep him at home and get the help he needs.  You know, it's hard to get help when you don't know where to turn and don't know what you don't know.  It's hard to ask the right questions (because no one will offer you information if you don't ask first) when you don't know what questions to ask. 

From what I've read it sounds like Mrs. Lanza was pretty much on her own with Adam.  He was her responsibility 24/7/365.  Was she a bit off herself -- she taught her mentally unstable kid to shoot for God's sake.  wtf?  There are some who post as if they know the deal, that she berated him until he snapped.  You may be right but you may very well be wrong.  We simply do not know yet, hopefully the information will be brought to light.  But one thing that is certain?  From the article:



> Often, when a parent is struggling at home with a child who has a mental illness or disability, they are completely overwhelmed and very few can understand this unless they walk in the parent&#8217;s shoes.



I can not begin to tell you how true this is.  You can 'know for sure' what you'd do if it was your kid ... at least that's what you think.  You do not know anything if you have never walked in these shoes.  You just don't.


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## wavingrl (Dec 22, 2012)

Zoom-boing said:


> I"ve been trying to find some info on all of this.  Specifically, it's been reported from Adam's classmates and neighbors who knew him and his mother that he had mental issues ... I"m still not sure what those 'issues' were.  Autism? Asperger's?  Something else?  Autism and Asperger's are mental disorders not diseases yet I see them referred to as a mental disease all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent post. I have reached the same conclusions--'there is much that we do not know, may never know and even if we did --are powerless to change'.

I think the general consensus is now that it was 'not just Asperger's' and what other problems may have been involved--unknown at this point. They are analyzing DNA to try to determine if there were genetic factors.

Certainly, much more needs to be done with mental health and so many other things.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 22, 2012)

wavingrl said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > I"ve been trying to find some info on all of this.  Specifically, it's been reported from Adam's classmates and neighbors who knew him and his mother that he had mental issues ... I"m still not sure what those 'issues' were.  Autism? Asperger's?  Something else?  Autism and Asperger's are mental disorders not diseases yet I see them referred to as a mental disease all the time.
> ...



Unless his parents refused them I find it impossible to believe that this kid didn't have IEPs when he was in school.  The information in them would certainly give insight into him, give us clues as to what his problems were.  Perhaps give things to look for in other individuals with similar problems.

While we will likely never know exactly what happened, what made him snap ... my last comments, above, are more of a general comment to anyone who has never raised a special needs kid.  You may think 'if he were my kid I know exactly what I'd do or what I wouldn't do', etc.  Well, no you don't.  You can't.  You may _think _you know but having never walked in those shoes I can assure you, you just don't know what you don't know.


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## saveliberty (Dec 22, 2012)

I know that before I bought guns to protect myself from a family member there would be a lot of calls for help to mental health professionasls and law enforcement.  I also know those guns would be the last thing this person had any access to.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 22, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> I know that before I bought guns to protect myself from a family member there would be a lot of calls for help to mental health professionasls and law enforcement.  I also know those guns would be the last thing this person had any access to.



I can not wrap my head around the mother teaching him to shoot.


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## wavingrl (Dec 22, 2012)

Zoom-boing said:


> wavingrl said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



agreed. Families face many challenges for which there are only 'difficult choices'. In my family it was substance abuse and, imo, dysfunction related to rigid thinking. Drugs can certainly destroy minds. fwiw. 

here is another article--again, I can only conclude he had some combination of issues that were difficult to diagnose. How he was able to meet academic requirements--that is worth some research, I would think.

'there but for the Grace of God, go I'--just about all I know to say.

A week after school massacre, new details emerge | www.ajc.com


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## Noomi (Dec 23, 2012)

Zoom-boing said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > I know that before I bought guns to protect myself from a family member there would be a lot of calls for help to mental health professionasls and law enforcement.  I also know those guns would be the last thing this person had any access to.
> ...



His mother was apparently a gun freak and one of those weird survivalists.


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## eots (Dec 23, 2012)

Zoom-boing said:


> wavingrl said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



there are countless kids with  way more red flags than this kid going on that never harm anyone ..he had no history violence


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 23, 2012)

Noomi said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



Gun freak? How does one rifle, one shotgun, and two pistols add up to a gun freak? What makes a person that wants to live weird?


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## wavingrl (Dec 23, 2012)

Noomi said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



I don't know. 

Somewhere--maybe in the last article I linked--it said she shared the 'Live Free or Die' philosophy of New Hampshire. What that means, I cannot say--how extreme, I suppose. 

Until someone can thoroughly research this family I can't draw many conclusions.

'Some kind of serious problem'.

Those that I know that own guns are ethical and responsible people.  

That's about as far as I can go with any of this. 

New Englanders, some at least, are often described as self-sufficient?/survivalists, I don't know. Henry David Thoreau is one example. Maybe she shared such beliefs. Some would say that is quintessentially American/Yankee?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau

'I should not obtrude my affairs so much on the notice of my readers if very particular inquiries had not been made by my townsmen concerning my mode of life, which some would call impertinent, though they do not appear to me at all impertinent, but, considering the circumstances, very natural and pertinent. Some have asked what I got to eat; if I did not feel lonesome; if I was not afraid; and the like. Others have been curious to learn what portion of my income I devoted to charitable purposes; and some, who have large families, how many poor children I maintained. [...] Unfortunately, I am confined to this theme by the narrowness of my experience. Moreover, I, on my side, require of every writer, first or last, a simple and sincere account of his own life, and not merely what he has heard of other men's lives; [...] I trust that none will stretch the seams in putting on the coat, for it may do good service to him whom it fits.'


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## midcan5 (Dec 23, 2012)

I am half way through Dave Cullen's 'Columbine,'  read it. What you thought you knew will change and it may take years for the information from the recent murders to come forward. Humans tend to hide their mistakes.

"Late in 1997, Eric took notice of school shooters. "Every day news broadcasts stories of students shooting students, or going on killing sprees," he wrote. He researched the possibilities for an English paper. Guns were cheap and readily available. Gun Digest said you could get a Saturday night special for $69. And schools were easy targets. "It is just as easy to bring a loaded handgun to school as it is to bring a calculator," Eric wrote... "Ouch!" his teacher responded in the margin. Overall, he rated it "thorough & logical. Nice job."' Dave Cullen,  'Columbine' p199


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 23, 2012)

eots said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > wavingrl said:
> ...



I know, but he had a history of problems.  Where are his IEPs?  Especially in light of the fact that he didn't have a history of violence ... whatever his IEPs contain may be helpful in looking at others who display the same behaviors/problems Adam did ... to keep a closer eye on them.  Then again, hindsight is always 20/20.

There is so much we don't and may never know about all of this.


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## wavingrl (Dec 23, 2012)

Zoom-boing said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



I don't think IEP's will be found. I am only assuming--this is a well-educated community--it is possible that they worked with his mother in some alternative way. Academically he achieved.  

I would be willing to wager that anyone connected to the school system will not discuss this matter.


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## Noomi (Dec 24, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



She's been reported in the media as being a very pro gun person, teaching Adam how to shoot a a gun, and stocking up on food because she was one of those who believed the world would end three days ago.

She's a nutcase.


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## eots (Dec 24, 2012)

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



you are the one that sounds like a nut case..having emergency food supplies is something everyone should do for a number of reasons.. there is zero evidence she thought the world would end three days ago, just nonsense on your part and so what she owned a few guns or taught her son to shoot..so does half the nation


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## P@triot (Dec 27, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> metal illness is an illness and should be treated.
> 
> 
> you need to have it available to EVERYONE.
> ...



No, you don't. If you feel that way, you should most definitely start paying the medical costs for anyone who needs it but can't afford it. No reason other people should be horribly burdened by your ideology.


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## Katzndogz (Dec 27, 2012)

It's quite understandable to treat mental illness as an illness.   Just don't start thinking that the treatment will work and they won't be mentally ill anymore.


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## catzmeow (Jan 7, 2013)

freedombecki said:


> I took a course in college once that had a chapter on mental health. Experts agree that 95% of Americans are treated for one kind of mental illness or another during their lifetimes.



Depression/anxiety or being suicidal =/= posing a risk to others.

There are actually violence risk assessment tools that can be used with a fairly good degree of accuracy to determine people who are a threat to others (or themselves), and many practioners and researchers have suggested enhancements that might increase accuracy.

Here's an example: 
A Classification Tree Approach to the Development of Actuarial Violence Risk Assessment Tools - Law and Human Behavior - Volume 24, Number 1 / February 2000 - APA Journals

Maybe they missed that information in your college course.


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## JustTheFacts (Jan 7, 2013)

GHook93 said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> > 'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America
> ...




That is not the only solution. Arm everyone LOL. 

Do you not understand that these people are mentally unstable? They don't choose easy targets, they choose targets which represent something to them, and hardening those targets would have very little impact on whether they attacked them or not.

Besides that, regardless of whether a mentally ill person actually committed one of these heinous acts or not, the larger overall picture is that we need to be providing more help for those who are suffering.

A shrug of the shoulders and a "hey can't help you, but if you come after me, I got a gun to" solves nothing.

This isn't a matter of liberal vs conservative; or rather it shouldn't be. This is a matter of what options should we have to make sure people are safe, even from themselves.

You speak of no one supporting forced institution, sir if a person is mentally unstable they are legally not afforded the "right" to consent to sex, but you want to give them the right to remain on the streets when those around them are begging for them to be sent somewhere ?

And let's stop the "liberals want this for free or liberals want that for free" before it even begins. I am not a liberal, nor did I suggest that anything should be free.  I absolutely contend that if a parent gets their adult child committed that parent must also assume the financial responsibilities of paying for said treatment.

However, I would like to point out that those who are mentally instable are more than likely already being supported by the government in the form of every welfare program we have. So ultimately what is the difference if we sign a mentally unstable person up for all these welfare or we simply pay for their incarceration in a mental institution where they belong?


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