# Bread Baking



## Coloradomtnman (Mar 25, 2013)

I've been baking my own bread for about 4 years.  Those first batches of blunt weapons were discouraging, but nowadays I use my Kitchenaid mixer and have learned a few techniques.

However, its still difficult and I don't seem to be very talented at it.  I can do a basic artisan bread well, crusty but dense, but I want to bake some fluffier, lighter stuff that isn't as crusty because my girlfriend of nearly three years suffered a broken jaw that didn't heal well and causes her pain when she chews harder foods.  She LOVES sour doughs and I don't have a starter and don't know how to make one - if that is an option.

Can anyone give me a recipe or tips on how to do this and/or any other kinds of breads one would recommend (I love bread A LOT).

Ps. I live at 5,000 feet in Denver.


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## koshergrl (Mar 25, 2013)

Oooh...the elevation may be an issue.

I'm good at bread, and make it without a recipe, just whenever.

Couple of things about bread..the more you work yeast dough, and the more times it rises, the finer it gets. Sometimes it will get tougher, too, so you have to hit a balance.

When I first started out, my mom told me to always let it rise 2x....so you let it rise 1x in the bowl, punch it down, knead it a little, and then prepare it for the oven...loaves in oiled loaf pans, buns in their pans...and let it raise again. 

Butter or margarine across the tops (olive oil is probably just as well) as SOON as it comes out of the oven, and it will make the crust softer.

Seriously, bread is made or broken in the kneading. You need to do it enough that you learn what a good dough feels like..and you aren't going to get that with a kitchenaid. You have to work it yourself. 

My bread:

About 2 cups hot water, with a couple of tbsp oil/butter/lard (melted), a tbsp. of sugar, 2 tbsp of salt,  and 1 tsp. - 1 tbsp (depending on how much I trust it) yeast. 

Stir it up, let it sit a few minutes.

Add around 7 C of flour, stir until it's sticky, add more flour if you need to, so you can knead the dough inside the bowl with lots of flour to keep it from sticking. 

Or you can turn out onto a floured board, and just keep dusting with flour as needed (if it's sticking it's needed). When the dough is elastic, and the skin doesn't break anymore, you can turn it back into your bowl, oil the top, and let it rise for however long it needs to get to 2x original size. 

Then punch down, divide into loaves and/or rolls (oil the pans well) and let rise again...turn on the oven to 425 here. It doesn't have to raise to 2x the size for this one...it will rise a little more in the oven so keep that in mind.

Then cook it. It's done when it's golden brown and sounds hollow when thumped.

Butter the crust when it comes out; wait a couple of minutes then turn out of the pans.

If you're using bread machine yeast, just mix the yeast, salt, sugar in with the flour...then pour in the water/oil mixture and stir. I have really good luck doing it that way, too.


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## koshergrl (Mar 25, 2013)

Have you tried different yeasts, btw? From what I'm reading online, the yeast should be fermenting pretty quickly...


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## koshergrl (Mar 25, 2013)

_"Yeast Breads:__Decrease the amount of yeast in the recipe by 25%, and make water/flour adjustments as necessary to get a dough with the correct texture. Make sure your bowl has plenty of room for the dough to rise in. Since rising times are much shorter at higher altitudes, you have a number of options to help its flavor._

_Give the dough one extra rise by punching it down twice before forming it._
_Try covering the dough and placing it in the refrigerator for its first rise, to slow the action of the yeast give the dough more time to develop._
_If you have sourdough starter on hand, use some of it for some of the liquid in the recipe._
_Make a sponge by mixing the yeast, the liquid in the recipe, and 1 to 2 cups of flour. Cover and let the sponge work for a few hours in the refrigerator to develop it."_
High-altitude baking - King Arthur Flour


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 25, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Have you tried different yeasts, btw? From what I'm reading online, the yeast should be fermenting pretty quickly...



I'm using Fleischmman's or Red Star Active Dry Yeast.  It takes maybe a 5 minutes to foam up in the water and sugar solution.


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 25, 2013)

I mix the ingredients in the mixer and let it work it for about 8 - 10 minutes then pull it out and knead it on a flour-dusted table for about another 3-4 minutes.  Until its elasticky.  But I've only learned to bake bread using Youtube or Google searches or books.  I've never had anyone show me in person, so I can only guess at what they mean by elasticky.  I don't know if its elasticky enough or too much, you know what I mean?

What do you mean by "trust" when talking about yeast?  Do you have a brand or type you prefer?

I do have some bread machine yeast too, because I used to use a bread machine, but didn't like the way the loaves came out.  I also like making a more artisanal bread.  I feel better about it, as I'm sure you can understand.

The thing is, I'm a hell of a cook.  Cooking is an art.  Baking is an art AND a science, wouldn't you agree, or am I seeing that wrong.  It seems like you need to have exactly the right amounts of each ingredient, and the exact right temperature for rise (I seem to live in cold houses), etc. etc.


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## koshergrl (Mar 25, 2013)

Knead your bread until it's elastic (it will "spring" back to it's original shape), and raise it 2-3 times and see what happens.


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## koshergrl (Mar 25, 2013)

Different yeasts have different qualities; some are old when they hit the shelf; some don't do as well.

I don't use Red Star. I'm all about fleischmann's. Packets or jars....when I used packets, I use a couple of them just to be on the safe side.

Also if it doesn't rise the way you like, you can always knead MORE yeast in; I've done that, and then let it rise again and see what happens. Important to knead really well to prevent big bubbles though.

You might also be using too much water...might need to add more flour to your dough...throw flour around, don't be skimpy with the flour.

What's your recipe?


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## koshergrl (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm making rolls tonight, btw...


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## derk (Mar 25, 2013)

Ive been doing it for about 7 years now. I bake it on Sundays and get togethers the most common is rolls clover leaf.. I started doing it to quit smoking. My family expects it now. I get a beer and Sundays get out the yeast and sit around and late in the evening the smell is all over the house, and usually I take some to my son and his family.

now its just.....


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## syrenn (Mar 25, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> I've been baking my own bread for about 4 years.  Those first batches of blunt weapons were discouraging, but nowadays I use my Kitchenaid mixer and have learned a few techniques.
> 
> However, its still difficult and I don't seem to be very talented at it.  I can do a basic artisan bread well, crusty but dense, but I want to bake some fluffier, lighter stuff that isn't as crusty because my girlfriend of nearly three years suffered a broken jaw that didn't heal well and causes her pain when she chews harder foods.  She LOVES sour doughs and I don't have a starter and don't know how to make one - if that is an option.
> 
> ...




what type of bread are you looking for? A loaf or free form? 


starters are easy enough to get and feed. 
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=sourdough%20starter&sprefix=sourdough+%2Caps%2C323&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asourdough%20starter]Amazon.com: sourdough starter[/ame]


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## derk (Mar 25, 2013)

How are you Syreen? Good to see you.


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## syrenn (Mar 25, 2013)

derk said:


> How are you Syreen? Good to see you.



im good... thinking about baking bread now....  

How ya doing derk?


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 25, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Different yeasts have different qualities; some are old when they hit the shelf; some don't do as well.
> 
> I don't use Red Star. I'm all about fleischmann's. Packets or jars....when I used packets, I use a couple of them just to be on the safe side.
> 
> ...



Should I knead more yeast in after the first rise, if I'm unsatisfied with how much it has risen?

Thanks for those tips.  I don't think I'm being too skimpy with the flour, but I am afraid to add too much flour after I get a dough ball going.

I use different recipes depending on what kind of bread I'm going for i.e. pizza dough, regular white loaf or a basic round flour sugar yeast salt bread.


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## syrenn (Mar 25, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> koshergrl said:
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> 
> > Different yeasts have different qualities; some are old when they hit the shelf; some don't do as well.
> ...




ratio of all of those things is what makes the different doughs. 

adding in yeast after the fact will do nothing for you.


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## syrenn (Mar 25, 2013)

can you post what recipe you are using? It may help in telling you options.


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## derk (Mar 25, 2013)

syrenn said:


> derk said:
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> > How are you Syreen? Good to see you.
> ...



I'm doing ok. I was drinkin a few beers and hangin out in a few forums. I gotta go now though. I hope you'll be on tomorrow I'll look you up.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

syrenn said:


> Coloradomtnman said:
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> > koshergrl said:
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I have kneaded in yeast after the first rising, in instances where the yeast I used was bad and there was no *rising* going on at all, and had the bread rise.....

But it's obviously not standard bread making procedure.

Glad you chimed in, I came in here to tell him to find the resident baker.

You can't add too much flour. The dough won't pick up more than it needs. When I get my dough going usually I dump flour on top, turn the dough over (in the bowl...I have a big earthenware bowl for break making) and then knead the dough right in the bowl, in the flour. The dough should be dry and non-sticky to the touch when you're done.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

My rolls were yummy last night.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> syrenn said:
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> > Coloradomtnman said:
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yes, you can add to much flour..... to much can make breads very tough and chewy depending on the ratio of other ingredients....  

there is a science to baking so it is more precise then you may think.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, i was hoping to get more information out of him before i answered with ideas...

but for lack of information...i will give some general things for him to try...

Dont bake the bread at a high temp.... bake at no more then 350. 
Do not use water for its glaze...and do not spritz the oven while baking. 
Use an egg and milk wash glaze if you want a glazing. 
Add an egg to the dough
Add a fat to "shorten" the dough..... butter is my choice, but oil or shorting will work too.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

I know there's science involved but I don't worry about it. I just know my bread always turns out yummy.

I buy good flour and good yeast, though. 

I tend to cook mine @425, but I watch it like a hawk. If I'm baking big loaves, I'll bake it at 425 until it's brown, then turn way down to 325. I'm probably doing it ass backwards.

I haven't gotten into glazing bread....I generally just make white bread. I have made hot cross buns, I think, that had a glaze...and I've made a few braided loaves that were glazed. I made some killer french bread in my distant past...but ultimately, I cook white bread, loaves and rolls. And we use it for everything people use cheap white bread for...sandwiches, toast, school lunches. The kids have rolls with butter and jam in their lunches today.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> I know there's science involved but I don't worry about it. I just know my bread always turns out yummy.
> 
> I buy good flour and good yeast, though.
> 
> ...




Hotter ovens make harder/crunchier crusts. A lower temperature will help to not achieve that end.  Water in the from of a glaze/brushing...or misting the oven for added humidity/steam also contributes to the crispness of the crust.


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 26, 2013)

syrenn said:


> Well, i was hoping to get more information out of him before i answered with ideas...
> 
> but for lack of information...i will give some general things for him to try...
> 
> ...



Sorry, I'm work early in the morning.

I have been baking at a high temp - no less than 400.
What does adding an egg do?
I don't know about glazing, what is it?
What do you mean by "shorten"ing the dough?


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 26, 2013)

Geez, I am clueless about this.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

Shortening the dough means it is more tender...*short* pastry tends to have more shortening/fat in it.

Glazing with an egg wash will make your crust shiny, and golden, and harder than no wash.

Glazing with water will make the crust shinier and harder. French bread is sometimes washed with water, then slashed.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> > Well, i was hoping to get more information out of him before i answered with ideas...
> ...



lol.. no worries 

use your usual recipe.... lower the baking temp..add and egg and about 1/4 cup of fat per about 3 cups of flour....

i was trying to get what you want to do with the bread you are trying to bake? 

you are making/asking about a "french" bread, yes? 

Think challah or brioche for and "egg" bread. It is softer with a much softer crust. 

a "short" dough only means the addition of a fat to the mixture. The "shorter" the dough.... the more fat to flour ratio you have.  

Gazing... is the finish. An egg wash is a glazing.... milk or water brushed on before baking is a glazing....  they all contribute to the visual look of the finished product.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> Geez, I am clueless about this.



No, you are not clueless. Clueless would be stubborn enough not to ask questions....


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 26, 2013)

syrenn said:


> Coloradomtnman said:
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I would like to bake all kinds of breads.  French, sourdough, rye, marble rye, ciabatta, you name it.  I was thinking of doing something like regular store bought sandwich bread for my gf because of her jaw problems.

My breads tend to come out denser than I would like, less fluffy.  I've been afraid to bake French bread because its such a light, airy bread and I just can't seem to get bread to turn out that way.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

i would suggest you look on the web for recipes such as 

Brioche
Challah
Cuban Bread
Focaccia

for a softer type of bread.


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 26, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> My rolls were yummy last night.



I made pizza.  The dough came out flatter than I would've liked, but still good.  I also make my own sauce.  I would love to make my own pepperoni, but I have a job and there's only so much I can do homemade.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

I buy appian way pizza crust mix and make my own, lol.

I know what you mean. I would like to spin my own thread, make my own cloth, learn to weave, learn to hook rugs, create a tapestry, make quilts for all, raise my own meat, have a garden, can my own winter veggies, make my own pickles, and make my own sausage.

Yeah. I don't do any of that shit. I work and drag my tired ass home to bed.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> syrenn said:
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the hard part is done... you have a kitchen aid! 

Look at the King Aurthur Flour web site.....they will have everything you need for all types of breads...and always good for ideas. I love their bakers dry milk as an addition to my white bread. 

The internet is your friend.... there are many resources and recipes to choose from. 

what type of flour are you using? I suggest you use bread flour, the gluten content is different then AP flour.


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## boedicca (Mar 26, 2013)

syrenn said:


> Well, i was hoping to get more information out of him before i answered with ideas...
> 
> but for lack of information...i will give some general things for him to try...
> 
> ...




Agreed.  

I'm quite the bread baker.   Love the KitchenAid Mixmaster for kneading.

One trick I use to make yeastier breads is to make a "sponge" before mixing up the dough.  Take half the flour and add leavening and sweatener (I use sugar for white breads, honey for whole wheat), and warm liquid...mix up and let sit for a couple of hours to liven up the yeast.   Then I finish mixing the dough and start the rise process.

I also have a couple of sourdough cultures I bought from Sourdoughs International (as well as the "antiquities" book).  The Bahrain culture is my favorite.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> koshergrl said:
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> > My rolls were yummy last night.
> ...




Again... depending on the type of flour you use...you will get different results in your dough. 

Check your dates on your yeast too.... it may be dated. And always prof your yeast to make sure the yeast is alive.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

When I first started making bread, I didn't even use water. I used hot milk. 





This stuff is super cheap, but the crust really is good.

If you accidentally pick up one of the pepperoni pizza kits, feed the pepperoni bits to the dog as treats, and use your own toppings...including sauce, if you have it. 

I love this stuff with the kids...the kids can make the crust, it will cover a cookie sheet, and we put whatever we've got on the pizza, and it is ALWAYS delish. 

Because of my love affair with appian way pizza crust, I have never ventured to create my own.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

boedicca said:


> syrenn said:
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> 
> > Well, i was hoping to get more information out of him before i answered with ideas...
> ...


 
My mother always had sourdough starter on the counter when I was in high school, through my young adulthood. She had an earthenware bowl, and in it was the starter. When she wanted pancakes, bread, or waffles, she would add flour/milk, whatever. And it was amazing.


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 26, 2013)

syrenn said:


> Coloradomtnman said:
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I was using the high gluten bread flour, but read that AP works just fine.  Also, Its cheaper.

The internet is great, but there's seems little to help beyond recipes.  That's why I asked for tips and tricks.  I saw the King Arthur website, but skipped it due to skepticism of corporations' motives.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

The corporation is motivated to help you make wonderful bread with their product. This is an instance when I'd trust what they have to say.


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## boedicca (Mar 26, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> When I first started making bread, I didn't even use water. I used hot milk.
> 
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Now that brings back memories!  We used to make Appian Way pizza when I was a kid!


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## derk (Mar 26, 2013)

boedicca said:


> syrenn said:
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> 
> > Well, i was hoping to get more information out of him before i answered with ideas...
> ...



I have to knead my usual recipe about ten minutes. I'll check on this...Thanks.


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## boedicca (Mar 26, 2013)

The KitchenAid is fab for kneading bread - but the older models are better than the new ones.  I think the quality has gone down.

I got mine 20 years ago; it is really a workhorse.


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## derk (Mar 26, 2013)

I wonder if my blender would work with the hooks in it.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

Ok I'm going to make bread again tonight..this time I'm going to make a LOAF.

Major. Excitement.


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## derk (Mar 26, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Ok I'm going to make bread again tonight..this time I'm going to make a LOAF.
> 
> Major. Excitement.



my recipe gives me two loaves. I use the same recipe and brush on cinnamon then roll the loafs up and drizzle sugar icing on them for my Daughter in law.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

I usually make one loaf, and then a pan of rolls.

Last night I only made a pan of rolls...tonight I'll probably  make 2 loaves.


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## derk (Mar 26, 2013)

We use a brush for the butter when it comes out so I can coat each piece. 
I'll post my recipe in here for him. I have a series of cook books I bought now I'm collecting them the Betty Crocker hard back series. I found three or four this week, I think.
That's the one I use for my bread. I cant find an Image I'll snap a pic of the cover for everyone.


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## koshergrl (Mar 26, 2013)

I take a cube of butter, expose one end, and run it across all top surfaces right when it comes out.


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## Annie (Mar 26, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> I mix the ingredients in the mixer and let it work it for about 8 - 10 minutes then pull it out and knead it on a flour-dusted table for about another 3-4 minutes.  Until its elasticky.  But I've only learned to bake bread using Youtube or Google searches or books.  I've never had anyone show me in person, so I can only guess at what they mean by elasticky.  I don't know if its elasticky enough or too much, you know what I mean?
> 
> What do you mean by "trust" when talking about yeast?  Do you have a brand or type you prefer?
> 
> ...



Because it's art and science, I agree, I use the bread machine to do all the 'hard work' and then put them in the pans or on sheets to bake. After baking, coating them with butter or oil will give you a soft crust.


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## Annie (Mar 26, 2013)

syrenn said:


> i would suggest you look on the web for recipes such as
> 
> Brioche
> Challah
> ...



i agree, for the gf's problem, Challa.


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## Annie (Mar 26, 2013)

Seems time for a link:

Sourdough Home - Starting A Starter



> Starting a Starter
> 
> On this page we talk about how sourdough starters work, and what you're doing when you start a sourdough starter. If you're in too much of hurry to read this and want to just make a starter, there are links to three tried and true methods of starting starters on the left and bottom of this page.
> 
> ...


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 26, 2013)

Geez, thanks ladies for all your wonderful advice and tips.  I feel very special having you all help me with this.  If I could I'd rep you 10 times over!  If I have any more issues I hope you'll I can ask you about it.


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## syrenn (Mar 26, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> Geez, thanks ladies for all your wonderful advice and tips.  I feel very special having you all help me with this.  If I could I'd rep you 10 times over!  If I have any more issues I hope you'll I can ask you about it.



 Let us know what you try....and pics of your trial runs would be great!


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 27, 2013)

syrenn said:


> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> > Geez, thanks ladies for all your wonderful advice and tips.  I feel very special having you all help me with this.  If I could I'd rep you 10 times over!  If I have any more issues I hope you'll I can ask you about it.
> ...


 Sure thing.  Will do.


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## koshergrl (Mar 27, 2013)

I feel like such a failure. I didn't make bread last night. I bought cheap, storebought bread.

Then we went to the beach, and ate sammiches on cheap, tasteless bread. It was great.


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## koshergrl (Mar 27, 2013)

But I will make some tonight.

And I will post some pics, prolly tomorrow.


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm making naan tonight.  Pics to follow.


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 27, 2013)

Here I am getting ready to start dinner.


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## boedicca (Mar 27, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> View attachment 25114
> 
> Here I am getting ready to start dinner.




Hubba hubba!   Nothing sexier than a man cooking dinner...


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## syrenn (Mar 27, 2013)

Coloradomtnman said:


> I'm making naan tonight.  Pics to follow.



pita bread is fun too! Just to watch it puff up is worth it.....


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## Coloradomtnman (Mar 27, 2013)

Best naan I ever made.  I acted as though the bread making process was more art than science and it worked!  This time, anyway.


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## koshergrl (Mar 28, 2013)

I made mine, too...not the most artistic bread I've ever made, but the kids approve. The loaf looks pretty good; I'll slice it tomorrow morning.


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## Sturmisdaman (Oct 25, 2013)

Hey, I'm new to this whole message board thing, but thought I'd reach out and give it a try.  I am new to bread baking as well and have been using a starter that I made.  I don't bake all that often, but dont want to lose my starter.  I refrigerated it for 2 weeks before using it again, refreshing after one week and then again at the 2 week mark.  Does anyone know how often I need to refresh a refrigerated starter?  Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.


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## koshergrl (Oct 28, 2013)

You need to feed 2x a day. 

I froze my starter a while back and was able to bring it back, it was better than ever!

If it's a little slow, try throwing a little rye flour in there. When I really want a jump start, that's what I do.


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