# Anyone good with graphics?



## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

I have Adobe Photoshop and Paintshop Pro, but I'm too stupid to learn how to make a 'good' website logo.

I'd like to change the logo that is at the top of this board but I'm having trouble using these programs. To be honest, I haven't tried too hard, but it looks like you need to be a scientist to do any good with those programs!

Anyone know of any software that is specifically designed for images/logos? (for dummies)


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## DKSuddeth (Jan 12, 2004)

It all depends on what you really want to do Jim. MicroGrafx is also a good graphics suite but any of those three are more than adequate. PM me with some ideas and maybe I can send you some short examples.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm not really sure what I want.

I like what is there now, but I'd like to make it better. I tried opening the image in Paintshop Pro and editing it but I was having trouble NOT making it look like a 5th grader did it!

I guess I'll just have to learn the program.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Can you describe what you want to do or maybe scan some sketches and post them, Jim? I have this weird knack for logos. I made my new logo by accident while playing with my previous ho-hum logo in Paint Shop Pro, and I think it's pretty cool (see below).







EDIT: Oops! I just saw your previous post where you said you weren't sure what you wanted.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

I want similar to what is being used already. The size of the current graphic is 364x65, I'd like for the new one to be just a tad bigger - not by much at all though otherwise it will distort the screen (look at the top of the screen, higher the height, the lower the buttons on the right will go)

Maybe a similar 'patriotic' picture on the left (perhaps some sort of World Trade Center pic?), but of better clarity. And the words on the right are ok I guess, maybe just a more suitable font?

Neater, tighter and maybe a bit more professional looking.

Make sense?


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Yes it does. The picture in your avatar would work well there, and it's about the right size if you want to use it. I'm not thrilled with the stock Photoshop bevel effect on the current logo personally. Perhaps a gradient background that fades into the page background would work well.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SinisterMotives _
> *Yes it does. The picture in your avatar would work well there, and it's about the right size if you want to use it. I'm not thrilled with the stock Photoshop bevel effect on the current logo personally. Perhaps a gradient background that fades into the page background would work well. *



Damn, never even thought of my own avatar!

Yes, that would look good. Do you think the height is too high? And I agree about the stock effects, but that's all I could figure out how to do! LOL

The fade sounds great. I tried something similar but couldn't get the colors to come even remotely close!

Hell, look what I put up there, I couldn't even get the text aligned properly. I suck.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Don't be so hard on yourself. The new paint programs are obscenely complicated, which is why I use Paint Shop Pro 3.11 (yes, the 16-bit Windows 3.11 version!) whenever possible.

I think the avatar image is about the right height. If you find that you want the buttons on the right to be higher, you can change this line in your vBulletin header template:


```
&lt;td valign="bottom" align="right" nowrap background="images/menu_background.gif"&gt;
```

to read:


```
&lt;td valign="middle" align="right" nowrap background="images/menu_background.gif"&gt;
```

That will align them with the middle of the logo image.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Outstanding! How did you know exactly what template it was? Do you use vBulletin?

I tried so many ways when I first opened this board to adjust things in the header and forumhome, and every time the buttons, time or member information got all screwed up.

I just printed out your code, thanks!


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

No, I usually write my own message boards and stuff. It was just an educated guess. Most Web applications of this type have a header + generated page + footer structure.


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Most web pages are layed out in tables the valign command set the vertical positioning in the row of the table.


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Though I would not use the term Web application. The board is written in PHP which is a server-side scripting language. The page is still in HTML, what happens is when the appache server sees the php extension it passes it to the PHP parser which in turn processes the php tags and creates an HTML page for the browser. If you look at the source from the page you will find no PHP tags, it is pure HTML. This is more DHTML than a Web App in the pure sense of the phrase.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by eric _
> *Most web pages are layed out in tables the valign command set the vertical positioning in the row of the table. *



True, a lot of designers still do it that way. However, DIV tags positioned using stylesheets have begun replacing table-based layouts in recent years. Either way, dynamically generated pages (e.g., Perl, ASP, and PHP applications) usually split the layout into three separate parts and use an include function to "pull in" the static header and footer sections.


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Agreed Div tags are becoming very popular as did CSS. Though a lot of pro designers still like the good old tables.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by eric _
> *Though I would not use the term Web application. The board is written in PHP which is a server-side scripting language. The page is still in HTML, what happens is when the appache server sees the php extension it passes it to the PHP parser which in turn processes the php tags and creates an HTML page for the browser. If you look at the source from the page you will find no PHP tags, it is pure HTML. This is more DHTML than a Web App in the pure sense of the phrase. *



Thanks, but I am well familiar with the way PHP and other server-side scripting engines work. 

I generally use the term "DHTML" to refer to client-side DOM scripting via JavaScript, but you're correct in that the term is commonly used to refer to dynamically generated HTML and other content as well.


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Ever work with ColdFusion, awsome for intranet apps.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by eric _
> *Agreed Div tags are becoming very popular as did CSS. Though a lot of pro designers still like the good old tables. *



It's now generally understood that CSS-positioned DIVs are the way to go because of the enormous savings in bandwidth they allow vs. multiple nested tables. I tend to use a hybrid approach myself: a few DIVs for the major sections (masthead, sidebar, content, etc.), with simple tables layouts within each major block to get more precise contol over the alignment of elements within each block.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by eric _
> *Ever work with ColdFusion, awsome for intranet apps. *



No, I'm strictly a hand-coder, but I've seen some killer sites written in ColdFusion.


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Thats a good strategy !


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Yea I know what you mean about hand coding, I still use assembly language for many system utilities I write. Most of my other dev. is done in C++ or VB for business logic. Nothing like having control !


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by eric _
> *Thats a good strategy ! *



It has worked well. It's easy to get lost in a complex layout consisting of deeply nested tables, and I invariably screw something up when I go back to edit that type of layout months later. 

When I want to get really geeky, though, I use all DIVs and apply a lot of JavaScript to dynamically resize them when the user resizes the page. The drawback to that approach is that customers are always wanting to change things, and it sucks having to recalculate a bunch of JavaScript variables to make a "minor" layout adjustment. I've learned my lesson there and usually save the really cool stuff for my personal projects.


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Agreed the clients can never make up their minds, always changes, changes, and more changes !


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by eric _
> *Agreed the clients can never make up their minds, always changes, changes, and more changes ! *



That used to annoy me to no end, but now I'm like, "Sure, I'll take your money!"


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

All this talk makes me feel a bit inferior.   

I need a program for the graphically challenged to get this right. Anyone ever check out designoutpost.com? It's a forum similar to this where you specify what you are looking for (logo, banner, buttons, website...) and you set a fee. Graphic designers that are interested in your offer compete for your bid. When your deadline is up (you set yourself) you choose one of the entries.

Seems banners go for anywhere from $35 up to $75.

I keep saying logo, but isn't what I have more of a banner?


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

> That used to annoy me to no end, but now I'm like, "Sure, I'll take your money!"



Isn't that the truth !


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Jim, why don't you check out IBM's Homesite buider. You can download a 90 day free trial. Extremely easy to learn and use, and include a pretty good graphics editors, which is again easy to use. You can download it from www.IBM.com.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Wanna give this one a try, Jim?


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

After I spell "States" correctly, I mean?


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Here ya go:


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Apparently the lower part of the button background image is white.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

I like it! Definitely the direction I'd like to go. Think maybe the height should be lowered a bit so that it doesn't overlap as much?


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SinisterMotives _
> *Apparently the lower part of the button background image is white.  *



That's odd. I guess it wasn't as noticeable with the other picture.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *That's odd. I guess it wasn't as noticeable with the other picture. *



I'll reduce it so it's the same height as the old logo. That should fix it.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Try this one (note the filename is different):


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Perfect fit!

Thanks very much!!

What software did you use?


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Perfect fit!
> 
> Thanks very much!!
> ...



You're welcome!

I used Paint Shop Pro 7.04 for that.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

A possibility???? It looks great, but the right is missing something.  It looks like it ends too quick, maybe bring out the right a little bit with the same feature of sky there too!!!! only a suggestion.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

I have PSP 8.0. I'm going to have to dedicate some time to learning it. Every time I entered text it came out looking '3D'. It was like box lettering and it was never filled in, I couldn't get regular lettering to work.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *A possibility???? It looks great, but the right is missing something.  It looks like it ends too quick, maybe bring out the right a little bit with the same feature of sky there too!!!! only a suggestion. *



I think it would look better if it didn't have the dark blue page margin around it. You could try setting a couple of the margin and padding properties on the BODY tag to 0px if you're feeling brave:


```
BODY {
	SCROLLBAR-BASE-COLOR: #000099;
	SCROLLBAR-ARROW-COLOR: #FFF788;
                margin-left: 0px;
                margin-top: 0px;
                padding-left: 0px;
                padding-top: 0px;
}
```

Just delete those four lines if you don't like the way that looks.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *I have PSP 8.0. I'm going to have to dedicate some time to learning it. Every time I entered text it came out looking '3D'. It was like box lettering and it was never filled in, I couldn't get regular lettering to work. *



The text dialog sets the stroke (outline) and fill properties separately. To make solid text, you need to set them to the same color.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

I agree with the dark blue!!!! a little lighter Jim! doesn't look like it has a border around it.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *I agree with the dark blue!!!! a little lighter Jim! doesn't look like it has a border around it. *



I intended for the dark blue in the image to merge with the page background. It's the dark blue page margin above and to the left of the image that kills it.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Can you fix it??? I think that would be the ticket.  I like it, but just something missing.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Hey! You gave me another idea, Janeen. Why not leave the background color of the two table cells containing the logo and the buttons the same, but make the body background color lighter?


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

There you go, like that idea much better! I see the top is fixed too!!!! Just that right too!!!!!


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, look at it now. What still needs to be changed?


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

OKay, if you want to completely remove the margin all the way around, just set the margin and padding properties like this:


```
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
```

instead of specifying the left and top margins.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Right side!!!!!!! just stops! looks like a ruler was used.  needs to be some room after the words with some lighter color.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *Right side!!!!!!! just stops! looks like a ruler was used.  needs to be some room after the words with some lighter color. *



What if we made one line of text go farther to the right so the whole thing doesn't stop suddenly ?


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, all the margins removed.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

That's a possibility, guess all you can do is try it.  Maybe it's just me, and maybe no one even notices, but I am just strange that way I guess, stands out to me.  Try it!


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SinisterMotives _
> *What if we made one line of text go farther to the right so the whole thing doesn't stop suddenly ? *



That would work


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Ok, all the margins removed. *



Actually, it wouldn't hurt to have about 10 pixels of margin on the bottom of the page where the copyright info. is. Add these lines:


```
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding-bottom: 10px;
```


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, what if Unites States message board stays the same, and then the other 2 centered underneath?


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SinisterMotives _
> *Actually, it wouldn't hurt to have about 10 pixels of margin on the bottom of the page where the copyright info. is. Add these lines:
> 
> 
> ...



Did that. Could be me, but it looks the same.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Jim, can't you just use a center on the whole thing????? if the two bottome titles can move to the left centered under USM board, I think that might do it.


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## wonderwench (Jan 12, 2004)

I have no idea how any of this stuff works - but the new looks is much much nicer!


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Have to run to blockbuster to return a movie, I'll be back in about 15...


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

You're thinking faster than I can draw, Janeen! 

Let's try this one:


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Did that. Could be me, but it looks the same. *



It looks better now. The copyright was crammed against the bottom of the window after we removed the margin all the way around.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Sorry, the mind starts going!!! 

Can you get "where you voice counts" a little more to the right??? just a tad???


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Do you want the "U" in "United" to overlap the picture like before and have "Where Your Voice Counts" be the line that goes further to the right? What about "Freedom of Speech Award 2003"? Where should that go?


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

I think your last example was pretty good, if you can just move the second line to the right a little! It is that or to center both 2 and 3rd line under title!!!!


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm gonna run to the store and give Jim a chance to try the last one, then I'll try that.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Aren't you glad I put my 2 cents in this thread? hahaha!!!!!


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm just glad I'm not rearranging your furniture for you!


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, how's that?


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Yeah, the moving of furniture too could be a challenge.

Jim, can't you get the W in where atleast under the i in United??? just a little more to the right??? i know, asking a lot, but I think it would look better!


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## eric (Jan 12, 2004)

Why not center USMB on the page and center the button below it. Currently they are too far to the right.


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

The logo and the buttons are in separate cells. I think Janeen is right about centering all the logo text.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Isn't that what I mentioned before?:


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *Isn't that what I mentioned before?: *



Aw shaddap and gimme a minute.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

hahahahhahaha!


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

Okay, here we go:


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

!!!!!

MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!!!!! I knew you could do it!!! HAHA!


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, how does it look?


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## lilcountriegal (Jan 12, 2004)

Just a question/observation... 

Underneath "Freedom of Speech...", it has a somewhat "mirrored" look.. I can see some white like some letters got cut off..... ?


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, Jim, one more thing, can you guys take out the white background in United States message board, take a look?? I think the white behind might be too much, not sure, do it then vote???


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

I can already tell you the red won't stand out very well against the dark blue without the white behind it. That's why I put it there.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *Ok, Jim, one more thing, can you guys take out the white background in United States message board, take a look?? I think the white behind might be too much, not sure, do it then vote??? *



I think the effect is better with the white in the background. But I'm willing to try it if you guys think it would look better.


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SinisterMotives _
> *I can already tell you the red won't stand out very well against the dark blue without the white behind it. That's why I put it there. *



I agree, I think it'll look kinda pale.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, leave the white behind it, but if your going to follow the red/white/blue, then you need to change the second to lines, so white is before the light blue!!!!!!   :


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *Ok, leave the white behind it, but if your going to follow the red/white/blue, then you need to change the second to lines, so white is before the light blue!!!!!!   : *



Oh shush, you!


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

HAHAHHAAHHA!!!! you want it right?


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

It's as right as it's gonna get tonight!


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## jimnyc (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, I think I'll go with what's there for now.

Thanks so much, Sinister, much appreciated!


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

No problem, Jim. I'll help you some more later when Janeen's not around.


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Shucks, you mean you don't want to make this an all night event??? hahaha! looks much better, yes Sinister, good job!!! now, I do have some furniture that does need to be moved??? :


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *Shucks, you mean you don't want to make this an all night event??? hahaha! looks much better, yes Sinister, good job!!! now, I do have some furniture that does need to be moved??? : *



What's in it for me?


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Thank You  hahahahahahahha!!!!!!!


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## SinisterMotives (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *Thank You  hahahahahahahha!!!!!!! *



Lemme think about it, mmmkay?


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## janeeng (Jan 12, 2004)

Well, don't think too hard, wouldn't want you to hurt your brain!


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## Jackass (Jan 12, 2004)

Just a suggestion....

Only kidding. Looks great. I noticed it as soon as I logged onto the board. Good job guys!!


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## Scourge (Mar 30, 2004)

Just found this thread. Adobe photoshop is the way to go. Industry standard, bro. Ask me anything about it if you have trouble. Same with illustrator/acrobat/etc. ( my real name is Joe Adobe...)


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

Wish I would have seen this thread - I'd be up to trying a banner...lemme know if you are still interested, Jim.


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## jimnyc (Mar 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dmp _
> *Wish I would have seen this thread - I'd be up to trying a banner...lemme know if you are still interested, Jim. *



I'm always interested in bigger and better things, thanks!

Just an fyi in case you didn't notice, that's 3 different pictures at the top. NYC, aircraft carrier, and USMB middle logo. I like the two on the outside, maybe we can look at something different for the center logo (with the same dimensions and same color scheme)?


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

something I spent 10 minutes on...for the center banner...


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

top, complete banner minus buttons...with a little more 'grounded' image of our military 

hehe...I can substitute whatever pics you want...minus Steelers logos.


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## jimnyc (Mar 30, 2004)

I like the center logo. I tried replacing it but it didn't mix well with the orange and black. Can you change the color scheme?


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *I like the center logo. I tried replacing it but it didn't mix well with the orange and black. Can you change the color scheme? *



My question to you - trying to be meek and not face your wrath... are you *adamant, adamantine, austere, bullheaded, changeless, chiseled, dead set, definite, determined, fixed, hanging tough, hard-lined, incompliant, inelastic, inexorable, inflexible, intransigent, invariable, locked in, obdurate, single-minded, solid, static, stern, stringent, unalterable, unbending, unbreakable, unchanging, uncompromising, undeviating, unmoving, unpermissive, unrelenting, unyielding * on the orange/black?? it IS a bit abrasive...I was sorta hoping this would be a chance to swap to a brighter, more cheerful colour scheme


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## jimnyc (Mar 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dmp _
> *My question to you - trying to be meek and not face your wrath... are you adamant, adamantine, austere, bullheaded, changeless, chiseled, dead set, definite, determined, fixed, hanging tough, hard-lined, incompliant, inelastic, inexorable, inflexible, intransigent, invariable, locked in, obdurate, single-minded, solid, static, stern, stringent, unalterable, unbending, unbreakable, unchanging, uncompromising, undeviating, unmoving, unpermissive, unrelenting, unyielding  on the orange/black?? it IS a bit abrasive...I was sorta hoping this would be a chance to swap to a brighter, more cheerful colour scheme  *



Hmmmm... How about lazy?  

If I stray away from the black and orange, it's not just a few setting that'll need to be changed - I'll have to replace every button image on the board as well.


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

I could help... 

What if I donate $50???


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## jimnyc (Mar 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dmp _
> *I could help...
> 
> What if I donate $50???  *



You want to donate money so that you can help me? LOL

I'm willing to change it, I just don't have the energy to do it right now. Replacing the logo is as easy as renaming the original and uploading the new. Then I'll need to find a new button set that will replace the current orange ones and match the color scheme of the new logo. The color scheme for all the borders will require editing a few entries in the administration control panel as well as a few pages of the html code.


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *You want to donate money so that you can help me? LOL
> 
> I'm willing to change it, I just don't have the energy to do it right now. Replacing the logo is as easy as renaming the original and uploading the new. Then I'll need to find a new button set that will replace the current orange ones and match the color scheme of the new logo. The color scheme for all the borders will require editing a few entries in the administration control panel as well as a few pages of the html code. *



I used to Administer ProbeTalk.com - I have some experience there...Albeit my role was (get this) Member-Staff liasion...I'd handle squabbles  and banning, and other user-account stuff.  Let me know if you think I can help w/ anything  

The $50 was to motivate you to get off your rump and find some nice, complimentary colours...which HOPEFULLY match my logo designs.


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## jimnyc (Mar 30, 2004)

ok, I'll start hunting around for new buttons and hopefully change it before too long. The first one is fine. The second one is one long banner, can you cut that up into 3 pictures to match the 3 currently at the top? I have to run to the dentist in a few moments and get drilled, so my mind is elsewhere right now! LOL


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *ok, I'll start hunting around for new buttons and hopefully change it before too long. The first one is fine. The second one is one long banner, can you cut that up into 3 pictures to match the 3 currently at the top? I have to run to the dentist in a few moments and get drilled, so my mind is elsewhere right now! LOL *


Right - I just put them together so you'd see what they'd look like 

hehe


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## _dmp_ (Mar 30, 2004)

same size as the current - should just...slip in - IF you like it at all.


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