# London: Years of Liberal Dogma.



## PoliticalChic (Aug 10, 2011)

MAX HASTINGS: Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters

 09/08/11 22:20

 1. "If you live a normal life of absolute futility, which we can assume most of this week&#8217;s rioters do, excitement of any kind is welcome. The people who wrecked swathes of property, burned vehicles and terrorised communities have *no moral compass to make them susceptible to guilt or shame.*

2. They are illiterate and innumerate, beyond maybe some dexterity with computer games and BlackBerries.
*They are essentially wild beasts.. *I use that phrase advisedly, because it seems appropriate to young people *bereft of the discipline *that might make them employable; of *the conscience that distinguishes between right and wrong.* 

3. They respond only to instinctive *animal impulses *&#8212; to eat and drink, have sex, seize or destroy the accessible property of others.

4. The depressing truth is that at the bottom of our society is a layer of young people with no skills, education, values or aspirations. They do not have what most of us would call &#8216;lives&#8217;: they simply exist.

5. The notions of doing a nine-to-five job, marrying and sticking with a wife and kids, taking up DIY or learning to read properly, are beyond their imaginations.

6. Today, those at the bottom of society behave no better than their forebears, but the *welfare state has relieved them from hunger and real want.*
When social surveys speak of &#8216;deprivation&#8217; and &#8216;poverty&#8217;, this is entirely relative. Meanwhile, *sanctions for wrongdoing have largely vanished*.

7. A key factor in delinquency is lack of effective sanctions to deter it. From an early stage, feral children discover that they can bully fellow pupils at school, shout abuse at people in the streets, urinate outside pubs, hurl litter from car windows, play car radios at deafening volumes, and, indeed, commit casual assaults with only a negligible prospect of facing rebuke, far less retribution.

8. Anyone who reproaches a child, far less an adult, for discarding rubbish, making a racket, committing vandalism or driving unsociably will receive in return a torrent of obscenities, if not violence. 
*So who is to blame? The breakdown of families, the pernicious promotion of single motherhood as a desirable state,* the decline of domestic life so that even shared meals are a rarity, have all contributed importantly to the condition of the young underclass.
The *social engineering industry unites to claim that the conventional template of family life is no longer valid. *

9. And what of the schools? I  do not think they can be blamed for the creation of a grotesquely self-indulgent, non-judgmental culture.
This has ultimately been sanctioned by Parliament, which refuses to accept, for instance, that *children are more likely to prosper with two parents than with one, and that the dependency culture is a tragedy for those who receive something for nothing. *The judiciary colludes with social services and *infinitely ingenious lawyers to assert the primacy of the rights of the criminal and aggressor *over those of law-abiding citizens, especially if a young offender is involved.

10. They have *no code of values *to dissuade them from behaving anti-socially or, indeed, criminally, and small chance of being punished if they do so. 
They have no sense of responsibility for themselves, far less towards others, and look to no future beyond the next meal, sexual encounter or TV football game."

Read more: UK riots 2011: Liberal dogma has spawned a generation of brutalised youths | Mail Online



This is the handwriting on the wall: *conservatism, traditional values and morality ....or what we are witnessing in London today*????
This is the crossroads.


----------



## WillowTree (Aug 10, 2011)

They drink too much gin.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 10, 2011)

Yep, just turn on your tv to see London burn from liberal indulgence.


----------



## Mr. Peepers (Aug 10, 2011)

Way to post one old guy's opinion...  Liberal dogma?  Please give me a break.  ALL "liberals" I know:

1.  Have jobs, not just jobs but REALLY good jobs - most are in the science and creative fields.  Most make really good money.

2.  I am one of those who grew up in poverty being raised by a single mother, and my dad abandoned us when I was 12 and refused to pay child support for the three of us.  I guess that makes me and the millions like me morally adrift animals.  I'll let you take that up with my mom.

3.  All of the "liberals" I know are very well educated and hold advanced degrees, and very much make education a priority with their children.  You righties on the other hand seem bound and determined to denigrate education... so which is it?

4.  I gather from your little highlighting session that people who do not make a living wage, (interestingly in a time when there are very few living wage jobs to be had) should starve.

5.  These riots started due to the shooting of an unarmed man, who is a member of this disenfranchised class.  This is what happens when you impose austerity measures on people already struggling.  Seems you dolts won't learn your lessons from the French Revolution.

You are probably the biggest partisan hack I have ever seen other than Jarhead.  Congratulations.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 10, 2011)

Mr. Peepers said:


> Way to post one old guy's opinion...  Liberal dogma?  Please give me a break.  ALL "liberals" I know:
> 
> 1.  Have jobs, not just jobs but REALLY good jobs - most are in the science and creative fields.  Most make really good money.
> 
> ...





Lulz at number 1

Most union employees are democrats/libs
Was unaware that policing streets, putting out fires, building cars, building houses, laying bricks, installing electrical outlets, plumbing pipes, and all the other blue collar jobs were considered "science". Lmao


----------



## Mr. Peepers (Aug 10, 2011)

> Was unaware that *policing the streets * UNION, *putting out fires* UNION, *building cars* UNION, *building houses* MOSTLY ILLEGAL LABOR, *laying bricks* UNION and ILLEGAL LABOR, *installing electrical outlets* UNION, *plumbing pipes* UNION, and all the other blue collar jobs SEE UNIONS were considered "science". Lmao



I didn't say they were ALL science jobs.  Sheesh, and every single job you posted above is generally done by people who vote democrat.  Do you not realize that?  And many of those are active in UNIONS, at that...  What is your problem with that?  If we keep on the road we are on, unions will come roaring back, as workers are being raped by their employers more every year.  Mark my words.

Are you now denigrating hard working blue collar Americans' jobs?  I guess the fat-assed hedge fund manager is the only "Real American" earning his pay, huh...


----------



## hellofromwarsaw (Aug 10, 2011)

Actually, many are Raygun Dems who will be sorry.

Hastings is a bit of a racist Tory. Only party in the modern world that rivals Pubs for being regressive, flag waving, dittohead savage capitalists. The poor and students don't like all the cuts on their back, with too low taxes for the rich.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 10, 2011)

Mr. Peepers said:


> Way to post one old guy's opinion...  Liberal dogma?  Please give me a break.  ALL "liberals" I know:
> 
> 1.  Have jobs, not just jobs but REALLY good jobs - most are in the science and creative fields.  Most make really good money.
> 
> ...



"...grew up in poverty being raised by a single mother, and my dad abandoned us when I was 12 and refused to pay child support for the three of us.  I guess that makes me and the millions like me morally adrift animals."
An amazing story. I wish there were more like you. I'll chalk it up to the strength of character of your mom, and your own.

But...
"Here is the lottery ticket that single mothers are handing their innocent children by choosing to raise them without fathers: Controlling for socioeconomic status, race, and place of residence, *the strongest predictor of whether a person will end up in prison is that he was raised by a single parent.* By 1996, 70 percent of inmates in state juvenile detention centers serving long-term sentences were raised by single mothers. Seventy-two percent of juvenile murderers and 60 percent of rapists come from single-mother homes. *Seventy percent of teenage births, dropouts, suicides, runaways, juvenile delinquents, and child murderers involve children raised by single mothers. *Girls raised without fathers are more sexually promiscuous and more likely to end up divorced. A 1990 study by the Progressive Policy Institute showed that *after controlling for single motherhood, the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared. *

Various studies have come up with slightly different numbers, but all the figures are grim. According to the Index of Leading Cultural Indicators, *children from single-parent families account for 63 percent of all youth suicides, 70 percent of all teenage pregnancies, 71 percent of all adolescent chemical/substance abuse, 80 percent of all prison inmates, and 90 percent of all homeless and runaway children.*

A study cited in* the Village Voice produced similar numbers*. It found that children brought up in single-mother homes 'are five times more likely to commit suicide, nine times more likely to drop out of high school, 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances, 14 times more likely to commit rape (for the boys), 20 times more likely to end up in prison, and 32 times more likely to run away from home.' Single motherhood is like a farm team for future criminals and social outcasts.

....Many of these studies, for example, are from the 1990s, when the percentage of teenagers raised by single parents was lower than it is today. In 1990, 28 percent of children under eighteen were being raised in one-parent homes (mother or father), and 71 percent were being raised in two-parent homes. By 2005, more than one-third of all babies born in the United States were illegitimate. That's a lot of social problems coming.
...Imagine an America with 70 percent fewer juvenile delinquents, 70 percent fewer teenage births, 63 to 70 percent fewer teenage suicides, and 70 percent to 90 percent fewer runaways and you will appreciate what the sainted single mothers have accomplished." -- P.37-38 

You will note that we do not read about adopted children filling up the prisons, welfare rolls, and runaway shelters. Adopted children are no worse off -- and, indeed, are generally better off -- than nonadopted children." -- P.43

"A 2008 study led by Georgia State University economist Benjamin Scafidi found that single mothers -- unwed or divorced -- cost the US taxpayer $112 billion every year." -- P.51

"According to the US Justice Department crime statistics, *domestic abuse is virtually nonexistent for married women living with their husbands. From 1993 to 2005, the number of married women victimized by their husbands ranged from 0.9 to 3.2 per 1000. *Domestic violence was about 40 times more likely among divorced or separated women, ranging from 37.7 to 118.5 per 1000. Even never married women were more than twice as likely to be victims of domestic violence as married women." -- P.57-58
Bureau of Justice Statistics Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S.

"A Cornell study found that unwed mothers are 30 percent less likely to marry than other single women..." -- P.70
From &#8220;Guilty&#8221;

Now, which of the above statistics would you like to dispute?
None?
Excellent.


Next: "I gather from your little highlighting session that people who do not make a living wage (interestingly in a time when there are very few living wage jobs to be had) that these people should starve."

This statement is far less 'gathering' and far more fabricating a defense of liberalism....one that seems hardly convincing.


"These riots started blah, blah, blah....."
I believe that I'll accept the analysis of journalist Max Hastings, over your assault on logic.

But I will congratulate you on have a life that has, in the face of the overwhelming statistics, been blessed.
While you have proven successful on the one hand, you do seem unable to understand current events intelligently.

Perhaps when you grow up.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 10, 2011)

Mr. Peepers said:


> > Was unaware that *policing the streets * UNION, *putting out fires* UNION, *building cars* UNION, *building houses* MOSTLY ILLEGAL LABOR, *laying bricks* UNION and ILLEGAL LABOR, *installing electrical outlets* UNION, *plumbing pipes* UNION, and all the other blue collar jobs SEE UNIONS were considered "science". Lmao
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Duh... Lol, that was the point of my post.


----------



## Mr. Peepers (Aug 10, 2011)

> But I will congratulate you on have a life that has, in the face of the overwhelming statistics, been blessed.
> While you have proven successful on the one hand, you do seem unable to understand current events intelligently.



God, you are dumb.  People are not statistics.  I see and understand the current events quite well, actually.  Do YOU not see the same statistics you quoted going up while wages, benefits and compensation for workers is going DOWN drastically?  Do you think that is a coincidence?  What were the tax rates when we had the "golden age" of middle class prosperity?  When was the last time mothers didn't have to work to just survive?  What were the tax rates then?  When did this really come to a head... the 80's and 90's right?  What policies produced this hugely skewed income disparity?  Were these policies written for the people of AGAINST the people in favor of the private sector?  You have nothing but your corporate overlords to blame for the mess the world is in.


----------



## theHawk (Aug 10, 2011)

This is "social justice".

Coming soon to the Obamanation, as promised by the Hussein.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 10, 2011)

theHawk said:


> This is "social justice".
> 
> Coming soon to the Obamanation, as promised by the Hussein.



I'm not sure that we are destined to that fate...but if we are you can see the reason in the post above yours, post #10.

This sad, frustrated, unhappy individual refuses to put the blame on a lack of personal responsibility.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 10, 2011)

No jobs, nothing to do with their lives, poverty and what does GB do? Cut teen clubs and police forces.

Brilliant.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 10, 2011)

Mr. Peepers said:


> > But I will congratulate you on have a life that has, in the face of the overwhelming statistics, been blessed.
> > While you have proven successful on the one hand, you do seem unable to understand current events intelligently.
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, you are an unhappy fellow, aren't you.
I understand it, you explained why in post #4...
and, if what you said is true, then you are correct: those experiences were certainly
not your fault.

But to spread the blame to society rather than placing it where it belongs is neither fair nor smart.

1. "God, you are dumb."  Actually, no, I'm not. But you are reallly, really angry. I think we've covered why....
Ironic that you appeal to God, as the lack of such appeal by anti-religion Liberals is in large measure the source of the problem, as Max Hastings hints.

2. "People are not statistics."
Truly a vapid explanation of the statistics that I have provided. And wrong.
When you calm down, even you will see that.

3. "Do YOU not see the same statistics you quoted going up while wages, benefits and compensation for workers is going DOWN drastically?"
You surprise me with how little you understand economics.
Consider this: What is the purpose of the dollars that one earns?
Right...to buy things.

 If you earn fewer dollars, but can obtain far more with those dollars, what have you lost?
Here is your economics lesson for the day:

In 1949, someone who worked minimum wage over the summer would have enough money to buy the following items from that years Sears catalogue: A Smith-Corona typewriter, Argus 21 35mm camera, Silvertone AM-FM table radio, and Silvertone 3-speed phonograph.
In 2009, the same person, working the same number of hours at minimum wage, would now be able to purchase: A Dell laptop computer, HP color ink printer, scanner, copier, Canon 8 megapixel digital camera, GPS system, 32 LCD HDTV television, 8GB iPod Nano, GE microwave, Haier refrigerator/freezer, Toshiba DVD/VCR combo, RCA home theater system, Uniden cordless phone, RCA AM/FM radio, Camcorder, Sony PlayStation 2, as well as several other things.
Mark J. Perry, Young Americans: Luckiest Generation in History, CARPE DIEM: Young Americans: Luckiest Generation in History

This, of course, also explains why government statistics on poverty are incorrect.

4. "When was the last time mothers didn't have to work to just survive?"
Another grave and serious misunderstanding that colors your misconceptions.
Survive? "Continue to live or exist, esp. in spite of danger or hardship."

You see, Liberals win the argument by control of the language. *Mothers hardly need to work to survive,* but do so for material betterment. Now, if spiritual were more important than the material, then folks would tend to be conservatives, not liberals.
My point? 
Liberalism leads not only to the events in London, but to the unhappiness which you evince.

Now, I hope you have learned something today...and the test of that is simple: which of us is really dumb?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 10, 2011)

Ravi said:


> No jobs, nothing to do with their lives, poverty and what does GB do? Cut teen clubs and police forces.
> 
> Brilliant.



So....you don't think the reasons that Hastings gives are contributors to the events in London?


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 10, 2011)

Mr. Peepers said:


> Way to post one old guy's opinion...  Liberal dogma?  Please give me a break.  ALL "liberals" I know:
> 
> 1.  Have jobs, not just jobs but REALLY good jobs - most are in the science and creative fields.  Most make really good money.
> 
> ...



ROFLMAO!  Get the fuck outta here!


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 10, 2011)

hellofromwarsaw said:


> Actually, many are Raygun Dems who will be sorry.
> 
> Hastings is a bit of a racist Tory. Only party in the modern world that rivals Pubs for being regressive, flag waving, dittohead savage capitalists. The poor and students don't like all the cuts on their back, with too low taxes for the rich.



Hastings is definitely a Tory, but racist?  Or do the two just go hand in hand?


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

Mr. Peepers said:


> Way to post one old guy's opinion...  Liberal dogma?  Please give me a break.  ALL "liberals" I know:
> 
> 1.  Have jobs, not just jobs but REALLY good jobs - most are in the science and creative fields.  Most make really good money.
> 
> ...



Lol! Another expert from 8,000 miles away! Before you respond with such asinine partisan hackery, just make sure you are on firm ground, which you are not in this case. This has nothing to do with whether the rioters and looters are liberals, cons, independents or nazis! it as everything to do with liberalist policies implemented over the years. It has everything to do with the breakdown of discipline and the lack of appropriate punishment as a deterrent.

It started with the policies of banning completely any form of corporal punishment in schools right down to the situation that even if a teacher lays a hand on a pupil, even to restrain, they will be subjected to suspension, probably court and loss of job. Liberal policies have stripped teachers of the tools necessary to maintain control in the education environment. Liberalist policies also determined that competition was a bad thing for young children, so what did they force through. Competitive games were banned in most primary schools. Give us a break! Life is one huge competition!

We have seen the abolishment of the death sentence and the huge watering down of judicial sentencing to the extent that many criminals now receive nothing more than a slap on the wrist and a community sentence of a few weeks tidying the streets.

There are thousand upon thousand of teenage girls who want to get pregnant. Why? So thay get free accommodation, free furniture, washing machine etc and a montly income. The more brats they pump out, the more income they gain. 

These fucking scum bags aren't poor! They all have expensive cell phones wear designer clothes, smoke and drink. What you don't see, as I have this morning, are these same scumbags leaving courts and giving V signs and saying who cares. They ain't gonna jail us!

I could go on, but quite frankly I know I would be wasting my breath. After all, some of you guys seem to think you know more about foreign countries than those who live in them! Just keep you partisan hackery for your own politics for it's more than obvious you know fuck all about ours!


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

What you've described are socialist policies, Colin. Maybe you guys have gone overboard. Though I don't agree with beating children or the death penalty.

Last night the rightwingloons were rioting. I suppose liberals made them do that, too?


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> What you've described are socialist policies, Colin. Maybe you guys have gone overboard. Though I don't agree with beating children or the death penalty.
> 
> Last night the rightwingloons were rioting. I suppose liberals made them do that, too?



Whatevah, Ravi. I'm sure your superior knowledge of life on the ground here is far superior to mine. You just keep on making it a right versus left situation but you'll have to excuse me for pissing myself laughing.

Rightwing riots? Really? Do you mean the vigilantes on the streets to protect their neighbourhood? Wrong again! These groups were infiltrated by extremist rightwingers, but the police were aware and battened them down. They did not contribute to any riots.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

I have no superior knowledge and it is you that is trying to blame all this on the left.

IMO, it is the result of the economic outlook and everyone has their reasons, as retarded as they may be, to feel oppressed.


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> I have no superior knowledge and it is you that is trying to blame all this on the left.
> 
> IMO, it is the result of the economic outlook and everyone has their reasons, as retarded as they may be, to feel oppressed.



Spin it whichever way you want...I know you will regardless of the facts. Do carry on. I'm getting quite a laugh out of it.


----------



## editec (Aug 11, 2011)

Yeah all those rioting kids could have been part of the ENGLANDS elite class, but instead, and because of liberalism they CHOOSE to be poor, right?

What a load bullocks.

What you have here are kids who have no good reason to play by the rules because the rules inform them that they are economically/socially worthless.

And they ARE economically worthless in that society, too.

And heads up. kiddies, a LOT MORE OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD are going to BECOME economically worthless as times goes by, too.

Unless we address *the growing problem of human redundancy* these kinds of problems are only going to grow worse.

And the solution is NOT a welfare state, it's a WORK-FAIR state.

But of course that would be even more socialistic and fraught with all the problems associated with a society that has concentrated power into the hands of a few that we've got right now, wouldn't it?

20%-25% of the human population is already redundant and that trend is rapidly growing as techological advances replace human labor.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 11, 2011)

editec said:


> Yeah all those rioting kids could have been part of the ENGLANDS elite class, but instead, and because of liberalism they CHOOSE to be poor, right?
> 
> What a load bullocks.
> 
> ...



You  guys throw around the word 'poor' as though it has some actual meaning.
It does not, in the era of the welfare state.

Free healthcare for life, all the accoutrements that accrue in a liberal welfare socialist environmment....

...did you know that unemployment benefits are forever?
"...It is paid until you find work."
Unemployment benefits explained | Consumer affairs | Times Online


History isn't enough proof for you??
London on fire isn't enough proof?

Wise up: free-market and traditional values or what we are witnessing.


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

editec said:


> Yeah all those rioting kids could have been part of the ENGLANDS elite class, but instead, and because of liberalism they CHOOSE to be poor, right?
> 
> What a load bullocks.
> 
> ...



Another expert! Poor my arse! So fucking poor they ALL have their state of the art phones, designer clothes and branded sports shoes. They can afford to smoke, drink and go to football matches. They get their weekly welfare check if they're not working and they all have accommodation. Those that don't work DON'T want to work! But hey! What do we know versus experts like you! 

Pity you haven't been following the court cases now occurring. Academics, people with regular jobs, as well as lowlife scumbags.


----------



## editec (Aug 11, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah all those rioting kids could have been part of the ENGLANDS elite class, but instead, and because of liberalism they CHOOSE to be poor, right?
> ...


 
Did you miss the meaning of this, PC?



> And the solution is NOT a welfare state, it's a WORK-FAIR state.


 
Apparently you did.

WELFARE is the burden that society bears for the failings of the economy.

It does NOT solve the problem, it merely kicks the can down the road.

Those kids are NOT part of their society in any meaningful way, they are wards of the state and wards without ADULT supervision.

Ever hear thing adage, PC?

Idle hands are the devil's playthings.

If we want to solve this kind of problem, finding ways to integrate those skilless and economically unviable kids into society in a way that gives them some damned good reason to work is the way to do it.

Sadly, there is no way to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

Colin said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah all those rioting kids could have been part of the ENGLANDS elite class, but instead, and because of liberalism they CHOOSE to be poor, right?
> ...



Well, to be fair Colin, people who don't live in the UK will largely have their views shaped by their domestic media's coverage of the issues.  For example...

"A protest against poor living conditions and police mistreatment".  

"Cameron and his government must leave after the popular uprising against them".

Those positions taken by the official news agencies in Iran and Libya.

In the UK media (if anyone is following them) you'll get op-ed in the Mail and the Grauniad that represent the two poles, with the truth lying somewhere in the middle.  

It is interesting that a lot of people seem to be taking editorial opinion as fact.  Actually maybe that's not that much of a surprise, though it is massively depressing.

However, what is clear from the people who have been trooped through the courts already is that the troublemakers come from a wide range of social groups.  To anyone who has lived in the UK for any amount of time, this will not be at all surprising.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

Given that people in the UK are fiercely divided over what caused the riots it isn't unimaginable that the rest of the world is too.

And that opinion of mine is formed by reading the UK media.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 11, 2011)

editec said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...



I feel spanked, Techy.

No, I didn't actually miss it, but I did see it as a deflection, so pushed it to the side.

I want an admission that society has strayed far from the correct path.  Cradle-to-grave is not a safety net.
Small government, individual rights and personal responsibility. 
"It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which 
freedom can securely stand." John Adams.

Lack of attention to the above= London today.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

editec said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...



That's an interesting point, and one with which I have a fair degree of sympathy.

The issue is that, in this economy, one either makes cuts or kicks the can yet further down the road.  Britain and the US have approached this issue in largely different ways.

British kids have a huuuuuge amount of opportunity for either higher education or vocational training at minimal or no cost when compared to the US.  However, because so many things are so easy to get (compared to other countries) the moment one of those benefits is removed or, heaven forbid, has a cost attached to it, the cries of righteous indignation can be heard the length and breadth of the land.

The difference between many of the older genration and many of the younger is that the older generation recognize that they ARE actually paying for services through taxation and national insurance, while many of the younger have not really started to get their heads round that fact, in many cases because they have spent all their adult lives so far getting money from the state rather than paying money to the state.

And not surprisingly, if you look at the age demographic of those arrested, it is apparent that it is the under 25s that are causing the vast majority of the damage.

That said, though there are certainly a vast number of unemployed youths involved in the troublemaking there are also, as Colin mentioned, a number of better off, better educated, gainfully employed people in the mix as well.  

What on earth reason they can have for torching cars and putting bricks through windows is completely beyond me.  Any excuse they may try to give about their actions being politically motivated is instantly undermined by the actions they are taking to supposedly air their grievances.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Given that people in the UK are fiercely divided over what caused the riots it isn't unimaginable that the rest of the world is too.
> 
> And that opinion of mine is formed by reading the UK media.



You mean imaginable I guess, unless that  was sarcasm.

People in the UK are not so fiercely divided over what caused the riots as you might imagine.  What people are divided about is how to fix it.  And that's a very good question.


----------



## kiwiman127 (Aug 11, 2011)

Colin said:


> Mr. Peepers said:
> 
> 
> > Way to post one old guy's opinion...  Liberal dogma?  Please give me a break.  ALL "liberals" I know:
> ...



I suspect that Colin's response is partisan hackery based on my numerous interactions with Brits on the old MSN UK boards.  On those boards, there were Brits from all walks of life and with various political convictions.  Colin's opinion is just that, one Brit's opinion that is one of many.  I sure the hell wouldn't base any opinion on just Colin's perception.  Knowing the the UK's version of conservatives would fall into the RINO camp in the US, I suspect Colin is of the far right grouping.


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Peepers said:
> ...



Then you would be wrong!


----------



## kiwiman127 (Aug 11, 2011)

Colin said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > Colin said:
> ...



And that's your opinion, which you have every right to state.  My opinion is based on over a thousand of interactions with Brits on a political discussion board like this one.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Peepers said:
> ...



You dismiss Colin's opinion because it's only the opinion of one individual, and then go on to make a sweeping statement about British Conservatism based on the people you have interacted with on message boards.



Really?


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Peepers said:
> ...



No, he's actually a real conservative as far as I can tell.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



NOTE TO COLIN:  For god's sake man, stop interacting with real people and interact with them only online in future!



Kiwi, your posts are making the wait for the next Seinfeld repeat a lot easier to deal with.


----------



## kiwiman127 (Aug 11, 2011)

tigerbob said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > Colin said:
> ...



Maybe you should interact with more Brits?
Just like here in the US, there are varying degrees of conservatives and liberals.  Colin reminded me of the more far right conservatives that I interacted with.  So I stated that!
So shoot me.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



That's your best one yet.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



And you, personally....do you think a societal attitude, as outlined by Hastings, is- at least in part- responsible for the mayhem?


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



Oh boy! Are you a comedian or just plain thick! Tiger is a Brit!  So much for YOUR expert opinions.


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

tigerbob said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > Colin said:
> ...



 I think you may have a point Tiger!


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > Colin said:
> ...



I don't know what a real conservative is any more, Ravi. These days there is little to vote for, but much to vote against!


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

Colin said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > tigerbob said:
> ...



But clearly I don't interact with enough Brits online.  

This is a classic illustration of how, despite "interacting" with somebody, it is still possible to know almost nothing about a person's background.


----------



## editec (Aug 11, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 11, 2011)

"With a welfare system far more advanced than the United States, the British have achieved the remarkable result of turning entire communities of ancestral British people into tattooed, drunken brutes.

I guess we now have the proof of what conservatives have been saying since forever: Looting is a result of liberal welfare policies. And Britain is in the end stages of the welfare state.


The Daily Mail (London) traced the family's proud Anglo ancestry of stable families back hundreds of years. The Nazi war machine couldn't break the British, but the modern welfare state has.

Britain has a far more redistributive welfare system than France, which is why France's crime problem is mostly a matter of Muslim immigrants, not French nationals. Meanwhile, England's welfare state is fast returning the native population to its violent 18th-century highwaymen roots.

Needless to say, Britain leads Europe in the proportion of single mothers and, as a consequence, also leads or co-leads the European Union in violent crime, alcohol and drug abuse, obesity and sexually transmitted diseases.

But liberal elites here and in Britain will blame anything but the welfare state they adore. They drone on about the strict British class system or the lack of jobs or the nation's history of racism."
The Sun Never Sets On The British Welfare System - HUMAN EVENTS

Article pretty much says just what Colin posted.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Aug 11, 2011)

More, this from Theodore Dalrymple:
The riots are the apotheosis of the welfare state and popular culture in their British form. A population thinks (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class) that it is entitled to a high standard of consumption, irrespective of its personal efforts; and therefore it regards the fact that it does not receive that high standard, by comparison with the rest of society, as a sign of injustice. It believes itself deprived (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class), even though each member of it has received an education costing $80,000, toward which neither he nor&#8212;quite likely&#8212;any member of his family has made much of a contribution; indeed, he may well have lived his entire life at others&#8217; expense, such that every mouthful of food he has ever eaten, every shirt he has ever worn, every television he has ever watched, has been provided by others. Even if he were to recognize this, he would not be grateful, for dependency does not promote gratitude. On the contrary, he would simply feel that the subventions were not sufficient to allow him to live as he would have liked.
British Degeneracy on Parade by Theodore Dalrymple - City Journal


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> "With a welfare system far more advanced than the United States, the British have achieved the remarkable result of turning entire communities of ancestral British people into tattooed, drunken brutes.
> 
> I guess we now have the proof of what conservatives have been saying since forever: Looting is a result of liberal welfare policies. And Britain is in the end stages of the welfare state.
> 
> ...





> Congratulations, Britain! You've barbarized your citizenry, without regard to race, gender or physical handicap!



  One of the funniest quotes I've read all year!


----------



## kiwiman127 (Aug 11, 2011)

Colin said:


> kiwiman127 said:
> 
> 
> > tigerbob said:
> ...



Did I ever say I had an expert opinion?  No. All I did was use my experience with Brits from various ideological stances. But you two won't accept that.
Secondly, I found that when you belittled opinions of those "8,000 miles" away, you come off as pretentious. (Actually Ravi is just over 3,000 miles awy from the UK.)  In the age of our world's communication technology, people anywhere can get a pretty good handle of another nation's pulse. I found that with the Brits and I find that with my relatives spread out along the Pacific Rim countries regarding the US & UK.
Lastly, why would I know Tiger is a Brit?  If I didn't  include "kiwi" as part of my screen name, one would never have a clue that I'm originally from New Zealand, would they?


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

I love it! The French are better than the Brits! Good thing we had that revolution.


----------



## Swagger (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> I love it! The French are better than the Brits! Good thing we had that revolution.



Both former and latter are debatable. But hey, at least you've had the benefit of our enduring legacy, non?


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

Blagger said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > I love it! The French are better than the Brits! Good thing we had that revolution.
> ...



No, we have dentists.


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



There's an old saying...look before you leap. I guess it applies in your case.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

kiwiman127 said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiman127 said:
> ...



I don't live in England either, but I read the British media on a daily basis and interact with British friends / relatives on facebook and by email or phone many, many times a week.  

Despite this, I accept that Colin's experiences of day to day life in Britain will be vastly better informed / more well-rounded than mine.  

How he chooses to process that information and express his views is another matter entirely.  But to dismiss his views as "partizan hackery" and "far right", and offer yours as better informed and balanced because of your interaction with thousands of Brits online is just.....y'know.


----------



## Swagger (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Blagger said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



You also had the templates of an enduring civilization bestowed upon you. Indeed, you even speak our language, levy tax on our model, abide by laws outlined and implemented by your former colonial overlords, etc. I won't bore you with the whole list, but you can be sure that it's a long one. I can only hope that you appreciate our benevolence.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

Blagger said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Blagger said:
> ...


What benevolence? We whipped your ass.


----------



## Swagger (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Blagger said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



And you've never won a real war without our involvement since.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

Blagger said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Blagger said:
> ...


Nor have you without ours. Though I would go as far to say that we would have won WW2 without you.


----------



## tigerbob (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Blagger said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...





On the basis that the US Navy said that the Falkland Islands couldn't be retaken, it would have been interesting to see the invasion of Normandy launched from New York.


----------



## Swagger (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Blagger said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



100 Years' War. The Seven Years' War. Napolionic Wars. The Crimea. First and Second Opium Wars. First and Second Boer Wars, etc etc. Not to mention all the conflicts necessary when taking all the territory we conquered (a quarter of the world's surface, in case didn't know).

The list of determined and established foes that we've defeated on land and at sea without American involvement is long and distinguished. The same can't be said for America. Oh, and you only joined WW2 after the Japanese dragged you from under the bed. We were spilling Nazi blood long before then.


----------



## High_Gravity (Aug 11, 2011)

WillowTree said:


> They drink too much gin.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

Blagger said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Blagger said:
> ...



You won all those? And here I thought the UK had shrunk to a little island in the North Atlantic.


----------



## Swagger (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Blagger said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Not me personally, but the victories I've listed are noted on our military's battle honours. And colonising and civilising the world is quite an achievement for a "little island in the North Atlantic". Wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Colin (Aug 11, 2011)

tigerbob said:


> ravi said:
> 
> 
> > blagger said:
> ...


----------



## Ravi (Aug 11, 2011)

Blagger said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Blagger said:
> ...



Sure, but what have you done lately?


----------



## Swagger (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Blagger said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



What, in the last five minutes?


----------



## pAr (Aug 11, 2011)

Blagger said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Blagger said:
> ...



You won the 100 Years' War?


----------



## pAr (Aug 11, 2011)

Blagger said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Blagger said:
> ...



British Officer: You French fight for money, while we British fight for honour.
Robert Surcouf: Sir, a man fights for what he lacks the most.


----------



## St.Blues (Aug 11, 2011)

pAr said:


> Blagger said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



I have never seen a liberal fight for ambition... Just free stuff!
Liberals aren't afraid of work, They'll sit down and look at it all day.
Go Tea Party!

Blues


----------

