# Is the Quran Gods words?



## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

I say it is not, for the following reasons.

1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.

2. The quran is full of terrible quotes about what God will do to unbelievers in Muhammad and the day of judgement, and that he will burn them in hellfire for all eternity, and I say this is all lies which degrade God, and make him a monster. It was written to scare people into obeying Muhammad, and it does not come from God.

Does anyone want to dispute my opinions?


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## hjmick (Jul 8, 2012)

First, your premise presumes that the Bible is the word of GOD rather than a collection of parables intended to help men, and women, lead good and moral lives.


Second, have you read the Bible? GOD asks for and does mighty nasty stuff between those covers...


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.


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## hjmick (Jul 8, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.



Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have common roots.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...


Yeah yer right. Just do as thou wilt because YOU are a God!  A human with an I.Q of around 100-120 is a God! 

Happens all the time.


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## Buford (Jul 8, 2012)

Islam is not an Abrahamic religion.  That is a lie promoted by Islam and ignorant people in the media.


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

hjmick said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.
> ...



So Judaism led to Christianity, and whatever value those religions may have is a matter of debate. But my point is that Muhammad simple stole the earlier texts, and claimed himself a messenger.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 8, 2012)

Your user name "Dajjal" is arabic for the anti-Christ.

So I assume that you are here to hate on muslims and Islam.

Just what we need; another retard posting on the forum.


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Your user name "Dajjal" is arabic for the anti-Christ.
> 
> So I assume that you are here to hate on muslims and Islam.
> 
> Just what we need; another retard posting on the forum.



I am so glad you need me.


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

Here is evidence the quran is copied from the bible and other sources.

The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by  God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee  and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and  Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'



As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the facts of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do. 

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Of course you think that.  

You want us to pat you on the head and tell you we aree with your nonsense?  Grow up.

Though I am sure you and Bubba can get your panties a wad together and have a two amn circle jerk if you like.

So yeah you're disputed.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Copied from the bile as the Nicean council would have you read it.  Leaving out what they found problematic.

Your magic book doesn't make your skewed reasoning any more correct


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Your user name "Dajjal" is arabic for the anti-Christ.
> 
> So I assume that you are here to hate on muslims and Islam.
> 
> Just what we need; another retard posting on the forum.


Good catch Sunni Man. OP is either and Atheist or an Agnostic who *doesn't even realize* he's being influenced by the Great Deceiver himself!


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

The Sun and Moon in the quran contain obvious falsehoods.

Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.

sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.
sura 36.39 And for the Moon. We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled leaf
Sura 36.40 It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon,nor does the night outstrip the day. They float, each in an orbit.

The quran is clearly stating that the Sun has an orbit and the only realistic meaning of these verses is that Muhammed believed the Sun orbits the earth. Those that claim this shows incredible insight by Muhammed who realized the Sun had an orbit in the galaxy are talking rubbish. The quran shows clearly the limits of Muhammeds knowledge.
For one thing the Sun and Moon meet at every eclipse, for another there is often a visible Moon during the day, so day and night are not so separate as the quran suggests. The verse about the Moon shriveling shows no knowledge of the fact the light of the Sun is illuminating it from a different angle. 
The Sun also does not run to a resting place, not unless you believe Greek mythology. Besides the quran goes on to say.

sura 25.61 Blessed be he who has placed in the heaven mansions of stars, and has placed therin a great lamp and a moon giving light.

sura 71.16 And has made the Moon a light therein, and made the Sun a lamp.

These verses show Muhammed calls the Moon a light, which makes clear he did not know it was reflecting the Suns light. He clearly regards the Sun and Moon as separate sources of light, one for the day and the other for night.

Sura 81.1 When the Sun is overthrown.
sura 81.2 And when the Stars fall.

The Stars will never fall as they are outside our gravity. In fact the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But Muhammed thinks the Stars are just lamps to throw at devils, not distant Suns. as proved below.

Sura 67.5 And verily we have beautified the worlds heaven with lamps. And we have made them missiles for devils.

The following from Hadith Bukhari confirms that Muhammad thought the sun went to a resting place.


Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421: 
Narrated Abu Dhar: 

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> The Sun and Moon in the quran contain obvious falsehoods.
> 
> Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.
> 
> ...



And quote another magic book doesn;t make this any more relevant.

You clearly think you know the will and word of god which buts you high up on the full of shit meter.


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Your user name "Dajjal" is arabic for the anti-Christ.
> ...



Actually if I am anything I am a spiritualist who knows from getting many messages from the dead, that they do not burn in hell. Therefore I feel it is my mission to deny the terrible God of Islam who was designed to scare people into fighting Muhammads battles for him 14 hundred years ago.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



So you have issue with the Jews and Christians too?  I mean seeing as they worship the same god and all.

You seem to be heavy on the muslim hate.  Maybe you should spread it around some.  Or did the dead not give you any marching orders on that front?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 8, 2012)

Mad Scientist said:


> Good catch Sunni Man. OP is either and Atheist or an Agnostic who *doesn't even realize* he's being influenced by the Great Deceiver himself!


He is just a loon that knows how to cut & paste Islamophobic non sense.

But on the plus side; retard Buford has a new friend.


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> So you have issue with the Jews and Christians too?  I mean seeing as they worship the same god and all.
> 
> You seem to be heavy on the muslim hate.  Maybe you should spread it around some.  Or did the dead not give you any marching orders on that front?



I regard Judaism as largely myths, but the teachings of Christ have great truths in them, and they correct the untruths of the old testament.

However Islam is all lies stolen from the earlier religious texts.


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## Douger (Jul 8, 2012)

PLease post a picture of Gawd. A video would be better.


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > Good catch Sunni Man. OP is either and Atheist or an Agnostic who *doesn't even realize* he's being influenced by the Great Deceiver himself!
> ...



I can assure you that anything I paste in is my own original writings, but I wrote it years ago and posted it on another forum.

I reserve the right to post it wherever I please, as I wrote it.


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## Katzndogz (Jul 8, 2012)

The Bible says that nothing would follow it.   The Koran followed the Bible by 700 years so it can't be the Word of God.


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The Bible says that nothing would follow it.   The Koran followed the Bible by 700 years so it can't be the Word of God.



Exactly right, the last few verses of the bible state that nothing should be added to it or subtracted from it.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The Bible says that nothing would follow it.   The Koran followed the Bible by 700 years so it can't be the Word of God.



But the Nicean Coucil left so much out how can even know what the bibkle says?

Contaxt is everything and clearly the NC parsed it for their benefit.  What about the Gnostic Gospels?

Who really were the NC?  Who chose them? How do you know they didn't drop something important?


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

The Koran is not an addition to the bible it is a seperate text.  

Does that mean any religious writings after 325AD are void?  I chose 325 because of the NC but who knows what they really did.

I know what is says they did.  That however, is PR and Spin from the last 1600+ years


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## Sunni Man (Jul 8, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The Bible says that nothing would follow it.   The Koran followed the Bible by 700 years so it can't be the Word of God.
> ...


Rookie mistake numb nuts.

The last book of the Bible is the Book of the Revelations.

Which was written well before the individual books that form the Bible were compiled.

Thus, the verse was only referring to things being added or subtracted form the Book of Revelations, and not the Bible.


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## Buford (Jul 8, 2012)

The One True Living God is a God of Love and mercy found in Jesus christ.  The god of islam is a devil from the pit of hell.


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## Buford (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



It's not "the Book of Revelations".  Open up your Bible and tell us what it's called.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 8, 2012)

Buford said:


> It's not "the Book of Revelation".  Open up your Bible and tell us what it's called.


Book of Revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Buford (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > It's not "the Book of Revelation".  Open up your Bible and tell us what it's called.
> ...



Open up your Bible there to the first page and tell us what it says at the top of the page.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 8, 2012)

Buford said:


> Open up your Bible there to the first page and tell us what it says at the top of the page.


Look retard, I don't take orders from you, and I am not your personal assistant.

If you have a point (besides the one on top of your head) just make it.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Open up your Bible there to the first page and tell us what it says at the top of the page.
> ...



That would require Bubba to string together more than three hate filled sentences which you and I both know he isn't capable of.


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## HUGGY (Jul 8, 2012)

*Is the Quran Gods words? 
*

Just as much as Joseph Smiths words are.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> *Is the Quran Gods words?
> *
> 
> Just as much as Joseph Smiths words are.



Now that's just funny!  Unless you're wearing magic underpants!


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## Dajjal (Jul 8, 2012)

There is an obvious flaw in the quran which proves it is copied from the bible, and is not a message from God. Both the bible and the quran say that Noahs age was 950 years when he died, but the contemporary view is that the early bible was miss translated by a scribe who got the numbering system wrong. The ridiculous age of 950 years is a mistake in the translation of the bible, and the quran exactly copies this mistake.


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## Buford (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Open up your Bible there to the first page and tell us what it says at the top of the page.
> ...



LOL.  Arrogant ignorant muslims are so easy.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 8, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...


Typical Buford bluster; a whole lot of nothing.


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## Hollie (Jul 8, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> *Is the Quran Gods words?
> *
> 
> Just as much as Joseph Smiths words are.



The koran is actually the words of Uthman who compiled various copies of many korans and tales and fables (leaving out many others), into what was eventually his final, edited copy of the koran. 

It's interesting to note that the inventor of islam: muhammud (swish), never had final editing rights to the politico-religious ideology he created.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Hollie said:


> HUGGY said:
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> 
> > *Is the Quran Gods words?
> ...



Neither did Geebus.  The Nicean Council took that job onto themselves.


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## Liability (Jul 8, 2012)

The angel Gabriel came to the Pedophile Mohammed.

Yeah.

Sure.

The Qu'ran is a book of the actual words of Allah.  It is beyond the possibility of being wrong.  It is perfection.  Therefore it cannot be wrong in any way.  It is absolute complete truth.  Thus, it is also impossible to find ANY contradictions in it.


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## uscitizen (Jul 8, 2012)

hjmick said:


> First, your premise presumes that the Bible is the word of GOD rather than a collection of parables intended to help men, and women, lead good and moral lives.
> 
> 
> Second, have you read the Bible? GOD asks for and does mighty nasty stuff between those covers...



Yep such as ordering the Hebrews to murder women, children and even animals who did not flee before them.


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## uscitizen (Jul 8, 2012)

Liability said:


> The angel Gabriel came to the Pedophile Mohammed.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> ...



and yet people believe that god showed golden tablets to the writer of the book of Mormon?


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## Hollie (Jul 8, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > *Is the Quran Gods words?
> ...



Its actually entirely relevant. Notwithstanding a pre-existing commitment to islamist dogma, the fact remains that there is no solid reason to believe that the Koran, which was ultimately authored by Uthman, is in any way an accurate accounting of the voices Muhammud (swish) claimed he heard. Joseph Smith claimed to have possessed golden plates. So what? They don't exist. Muhammud (swish) claiming to have heard voices is no more outlandish than Joseph Smiths golden plates.

It's really funny! Unless you're hearing magic voices or possessing golden plates.


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## Liability (Jul 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > The angel Gabriel came to the Pedophile Mohammed.
> ...



SOME people do.

And other people believe that the angel came to a dirty old psychopathic scumbag pedophile to share God's words.  Islam sucks camel dick in hell.


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## Hollie (Jul 8, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...


That's OK by me.


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## Liability (Jul 8, 2012)

Liability said:


> The angel Gabriel came to the Pedophile Mohammed.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> ...



Time to discuss the contradictions.  Well, SOME of them:

From Sura 2: Al-Baqara,  The COW

2:21
Allah created the mankind; they should worship Him.
Contradiction: 3:97, 35:15 say Allah does not need mankind and the jinns; He is free of all want.

2:29
Allah created the earth (first) then He perfected the seven firmaments (heavens); He has the perfect knowledge of all things. (This verse indicates that Allah started creation by creating earth, and then He made heaven into seven heavens. This is how building usually starts, with the lower floors first and then the top floors&#8212;ibn Kathir).
Contradiction: 79:27&#8209;30 says Allah created the heavens first.

2:35
Allah forbade Adam and his wife to approach the tree of knowledge. (Allah spoke directly to Adam&#8212;ibn Kathir.)
Contradiction: 42:51 says Allah never speaks directly to a human; He speaks either from behind a veil or through a messenger.

2:37
Adam learned the words of inspiration from Allah. Adam was the first Muslim.
Contradiction: 2:131 says Abraham was the first Muslim.
Contradiction: 6:14 says Muhammad was the first Muslim.
Contradiction: 7:143 says Moses was the first Muslim.
Contradiction: 26:51 says some Egyptians were the first Muslims.   

Lotta firsts.

2:38
Allah ordered Adam and his wife to descend on earth and to preach on people whatever message they received from Allah.
Contradiction: In verse 20:123, before sending Adam on earth, Allah told him humans on earth would be enemies of one another. This means there were already people on earth when Adam descended on it. So Adam was not the first human created by Allah. 

Allah apparently was weak in MATH and does not understand the concept of "first" at all.

2:50
Allah parted the sea (Red sea); saved the Children of Israel (i.e., Moses&#8217; people), and drowned Pharaoh in front of the eyes of the Children of Israel.
Contradiction: 10:90 says Pharaoh submitted to Islam.
Contradiction: 10:92 says Allah saved Pharaoh.  

2:62
Muslims/Jews/Christians/Sabians&#8212;anyone who believes in Allah and the last Day and does a righteous deed will get rewards.
Contradiction: 9:17 says unbelievers will go to hell.
Contradiction: In 3:85 Allah says He only accepts Islam.
Contradiction: 4:150&#8209;151 says Allah will severely punish those who deny Allah and Muhammad and those who separate Allah from His messengers.
Contradiction: in 5:33 Allah commands Muslims to Crucify or behead those who criticize Islam and Muhammad or do not convert to Islam.   

Nah. No contradictions there.

2:106
Whatever verses Allah abrogates or causes Muhammad to forget, He replaces them with similar or better verses (Muhammad did forget some Qur&#8217;anic verses&#8212;Walker, p. 166).
Contradiction: 6:34, 6:115 say none can change the words in the Qur'an. 

None abrogate except those that abrogate.  Amen.

2:117
Allah creates instantly, by decree; He says 'be' and it is.
Contradiction: 7:54, 10:3, 11:7 and 25:59 say six days of creation.
Contradiction: 41:9&#8211;12 say eight days of creation.
Contradiction: 6:101 says Allah could not create a son for himself because He does not have a consort (a wife or a concubine). 




2:131
Allah asked, and Abraham cheerfully submitted himself to Allah (Abraham was the first Muslim&#8212;ibn Kathir.)
Contradiction: 2:37 says Adam was the first Muslim.
Contradiction: 6:14 says Muhammad was the first Muslim.
Contradiction: 7:143 says Moses was the first Muslim.
Contradiction: 26:51 says some Egyptians were the first Muslims. 

But first a word from first, but first another word from a different first.

2:219
Wines and gambling are Satan&#8217;s handiwork&#8212;there are some good but great sins.
Contradiction: 47:15 and 83:25 say Allah will serve Satan&#8217;s handiwork, wine, in Islamic Paradise. 

Heaven:  Where Allah serves sin for eternity!  And HBO.


Lots more laughs at:  http://islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/quranic.contradictions/index.html


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Hollie said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Oh I'll agree that the bible, the koran and the book of mormon are equally kookie.  

Magic books is magic books.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Liability said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
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And other people believe your a biggoted cock bag.


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## uscitizen (Jul 8, 2012)

Mad Scientist said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> ...



The women kept telling me I was god 

Ohh God!  Ohh God! etc...


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## Sunni Man (Jul 8, 2012)

Liability said:


> Surah 2:219
> Wines and gambling are Satans handiworkthere are some good but great sins.
> Contradiction: 47:15 and 83:25 say Allah will serve Satans handiwork, wine, in Islamic Paradise.


Every one of these so called contradictions can be easily explained; and most are due to errors in translation from arabic to english.

It would be too time consuming to go thru all of them that you have listed. 

So I will throw you a bone on the last one on your list.

Yes, wine will be served in Jannah (heaven) but it will be _non alcoholic._

Not the alcoholic wine satan uses to cause mischief on the earth.

No contradiction.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 8, 2012)

Liability said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Time to discuss the contradictions.  Well, SOME of them:
> ...


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## Avatar4321 (Jul 8, 2012)

I guess the easy way to find out is to ask God and see what He says.


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## Political Junky (Jul 9, 2012)

Jews, Christians and Muslims are all "people of the book". The Koran mentions the virgin Mary more often than the bible does.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

Political Junky said:


> Jews, Christians and Muslims are all "people of the book". The Koran mentions the virgin Mary more often than the bible does.


Actually, there is a whole Surah (chapter) named after her in the Quran.


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## Dajjal (Jul 9, 2012)

Political Junky said:


> Jews, Christians and Muslims are all "people of the book". The Koran mentions the virgin Mary more often than the bible does.



The quran mentions a lot of bible characters, and it only mentions them, without proper narrative.  A prime example is sura 12 which is a rambling imitation of the genesis story of Joseph, I have written a piece on it and will paste it in later. My point being that if you did not already know the story of Joseph in the bible you could not make sense of sura 12.

The story of Joseph in the bible fills the book of Genesis from chapter thirty seven to chapter fifty. The entire fourteen chapters are about Joseph. There are four hundred and fifty verses about the story in the bible, but in the quran sura 12 there are only one hundred and eleven verses.

It is obvious that Muhammad stole stories from the bible, in order to validate his claims he was getting a message from God.


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## Dajjal (Jul 9, 2012)

Having compared the bible story of Joseph in genesis  with the Quran, I can just about follow the story as described in sura 12, but as far as I can see, anyone who did not know the Genesis story, or who did not have the Yusuf Ali translation with commentary, could not possibly make sense of the tale of Joseph, as told in the Quran. 


Sura 12.4 launches into a description of Josephs dream, with no explanation of who he is or how many brothers he has. What is more the dream described is the second of two dreams that are told in Genesis. But the entire point of the dream is that the eleven stars bowing down to Joseph are his eleven brothers. Genesis explains Josephs family tree so you can realize this, but the Quran says nothing about the matter. The Genesis story also says that Jacob made a coat of many colours for Joseph, and that is why his brothers were jealous of him, but the quran gives no reason or motives for Josephs brothers to hate him. Nor does it explain that Joseph has one other brother named Benjamin who had the same mother as himself, but the other ten brothers are step brothers. Nor does sura 12 explain this issue at any time, including when Joseph sends for him from Egypt.

So when Josephs brothers state at sura 12.8 When they said:" Verily Joseph and his brother are dearer to our father than we are, many though we be. Lo! our father is in plain aberration":
This makes absolutely no sense whatever to anyone that has not read the full account in Genesis.

Later in the story Joseph is put in power in Egypt, but sura 12 says nothing about him filling the granaries for seven years, it simply changes the subject to when his brothers amble into Egypt to trade, (sura 12.58) and it does not explain they are there because it is now during the seven years of famine. Then Joseph ask his brothers to send for a brother of their father, this again makes no sense without an explanation of the family background.

How much more obvious can it be that the Quran is plagiarism, and it was taken from the Bible and other earlier sources.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



I made my point.  Crap like this is weak and pitiful, but it's what we can expect from you.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> > First, your premise presumes that the Bible is the word of GOD rather than a collection of parables intended to help men, and women, lead good and moral lives.
> ...



It wasn't murder.  God doesn't break his own commandment.  Judgment.  People were given examples of the power and might of the Living God and refused to listen so they were shown the results of sin.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
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> > Sunni Man said:
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This would be a typical reaction after getting embarassed.  You bring it upon yourself by your arrogant ignorance.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Surah 2:219
> ...



Oh yes, everything embarassing in the Quran is the result of "mis-translation or taken "out of context".  How convenient.


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## Liability (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Surah 2:219
> ...



If ALLAH had meant non-alcoholic wine, he'd have fucking SAID so.

But Allah failed to convey that tidbit of information to Gabriel?

What kind of "god" is this "Allah" fellow?

It appears, in any event, that you are full of shit, Sunni:



> * * * * Muslim apologists typically rebut by remarking that the wine found in the rivers of Paradise is non-alcoholic. Much of this argument rests on a pragmatic, rather than textual or contextual, foundation. "Even though wine is the work of Satan, if it appears in Paradise, then in that place it must be non-alcoholic", so the argument generally runs. However, a cross-referential argument is advanced, as well. Many Muslims point to Surah 37:40-47 as proof for the claim of "dryness" in the wine of Paradise:
> 
> "But the sincere (and devoted) Servants of Allah,- For them is a Sustenance determined, Fruits (Delights); and they (shall enjoy) honour and dignity, In Gardens of Felicity, Facing each other on Thrones (of Dignity): Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain, Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof), Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom."
> 
> ...


  --  The Quranic Teaching on Wine and Strong Drink


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## Hollie (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Surah 2:219
> ...



 I think its best that we be honest. Your position is one of an apologist and a dishonest one at that. To claim that the errors, contradictions and outright falsehoods in the Koran are merely translation errors is really an exercise in silliness. I understand your position, and it is clearly the position taken by someone with an agenda to press. To claim translation errors as an excuse for the contradictions will put you at odds with the three mods widely followed translations.

Your personal beliefs are your own but let's not pretend that many contradictions don't exist. Uthman's koran representing both conflicting and inconsistent terms for the natural world is simply a reflection of the lack of a science vocabulary and the many errors and omissions that accompanied the final version of his Koran. That also leaves us to speculate about the veracity of the the claims made by the Koran's primary author, Muhammad (swish).

Not having a requirement to un-critically accept the koran's errors and omissions leaves me in a better position to critique those errors and omissions. I can resolve the contradictions by accepting Islam to be false. Moslems, of course, do not have that same option. They are faced with the contradiction between the author of a book claiming divine guidance and yet having to resolve the divine guidance being drenched in errors.  Being unable to accept the fact of errors and contradictions means there is simply no way to resolve the paradox of gods who are inept communicators and sloppy record keepers.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

Saheeh Bukhari

Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 589.

Narated By Abu Huraira : The Prophet said, "Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.'"



So as we can see paradise is something that is not of this world. So when the Quran talks about rivers of honey that does not mean that it is the same kind of honey that we have in this world. Similarly, when the Quran talks about rivers of wine in paradise that does not mean that it is the same kind of wine that we have here on earth that makes you get drunk and do stupid things and gives you a hangover the next morning. No, not at all. God is just using these terms in order for us to try to imagine what this paradise is kind of like. So the wine of paradise is nothing like the wine of this world.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamic_paradise.ht


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
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See he cannot seem to string together more than a sentence or two then his feeble little mind grinds to halt.  Poor Bubba.  He tries but his hate has slowed his brain all he has tie to do is rant and rave before the breaks down in to incohenernt gibberish.

Poor Poor bubba.


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## Liability (Jul 9, 2012)

Yes.  The excellent things, those righteous slaves, sure do deserve some allegorical honey and fake wine.


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## Dajjal (Jul 9, 2012)

Not the least contradiction in the Quran is that it says Allah is merciful, and it then goes on to describe terrible tortures in eternal hell to which Allah will subject unbelievers.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Who wants to be a "righteous slave" for Allah?  Raise your butts and bow your heads.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Not the least contradiction in the Quran is that it says Allah is merciful, and it then goes on to describe terrible tortures in eternal hell to which Allah will subject unbelievers.



As opposed to christian hell which a barrel of laughs!


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## Dajjal (Jul 9, 2012)

Liability said:


> Yes.  The excellent things, those righteous slaves, sure do deserve some allegorical honey and fake wine.



By flowing streams where the fruit hangs low, and they are waited on by wide eyed youths.

Every dusty old Arabs dream of heaven, promised to them if they fight Muhammads battles for him. But if they turn away from battle they will be accursed.

Muhammad had a good scheme there pretending to be a prophet and getting gullible Arabs to fight and die for him. It worked very well and it is still working today.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Who wants to be a "righteous slave" for Allah?  Raise your butts and bow your heads.



Genesis 24:48  "and I bowed down and worshiped the LORD. I praised the LORD, the God of my master Abraham"


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Yes.  The excellent things, those righteous slaves, sure do deserve some allegorical honey and fake wine.
> ...



As good as L Ron Hubbard.


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## Dajjal (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Not the least contradiction in the Quran is that it says Allah is merciful, and it then goes on to describe terrible tortures in eternal hell to which Allah will subject unbelievers.
> ...



The bible mentions hell, but the Quran goes a little over the top describing how unbelievers will have boiling liquids poured on their heads, that will melt their skins, and their insides too. And they will have garments of fire, and they will have their skins burnt off and renewed, and burnt off again for all eternity.

Don't you honestly think this crap was all made up by Muhammad to scare silly Arabs?


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...



I think all the magic books are BS.  The Bible to scare silly christians , the Torah to scare the jews.  Battelfield earth tho scare the scientologists.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Not the least contradiction in the Quran is that it says Allah is merciful, and it then goes on to describe terrible tortures in eternal hell to which Allah will subject unbelievers.
> ...



The Christian God saves people from hell.  You're confused.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
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Dumb ass if he is eteranl and all powerful then he created hell.  Don't be a stoodge your whole life Bubba.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

*In the New Testament; Jesus supported this form of torture.*

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42

If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8-9

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
...hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. Revelation 14:10-11


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
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Hell is created for the unbliever.  The Christian God provided a way to escape hell.  Keep going.  I love it when unbelievers show their ignorance publicly.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> *In the New Testament; Jesus supported this form of torture.*
> 
> The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
> 
> ...



The Christian shall never experience death and darkness.  Those scriptures are for you unbelievers.  Better make the right choice.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
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> > Buford said:
> ...



Right so god created hell.  

Hell is no picnic sooooo, your god is mean kid with a magnifying glass.

Cherrio!


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > *In the New Testament; Jesus supported this form of torture.*
> ...



Well the certainly frightened you into pissing you panties and being a hateful little crusader didn't they!

Mission accoomplished!


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Keep going.  I love it when unbelievers show their ignorance publicly.


What's much worse Buford is when so called "believers" like you show their ignorance publicly and don't even realize it.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
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> > Gideonprime said:
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Yep.  You're going to be with your own kind and there will not be any mean nasty Christians around you any longer for eternity.  Have fun.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Keep going.  I love it when unbelievers show their ignorance publicly.
> ...



Uh huh.  Everyone can see you didn't provide any example.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



I don;t believe in your sorry little religion.  But thanks again for showing us what utter twats christians can be.

Cherrio!


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
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    Buford, your are the example!!


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
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Poor thing.  How sad.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I can see you're used to dealing with naive college kids.  Carry on.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
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> > Buford said:
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Hardly.  I am not a slave to a god who would kill his son.  I am not facing death with giddy fear.

I am free of such superstion and my life is all the happier and better for it.

I understand that you cannot wrap your head around such a thing because without your religion you would be an even les significant little person hating everything without having the goal of some heaven to justify it.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



So you're just here to run interference for Islam.  Fascinating how the left abhor's Christianity and allies itself with a murderous cult.  Common enemy....Christians and Jews.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
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LOL........."I am not a slave to a god who would kill his son."

That's sad to see.  Jesus can heal your mind.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
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What part of me calling the Koran a magic book is defending it?  

I don't care about the religion I care that you are trying to use someone's relgion as a reason to hate them.  If Sunni Man were half as hateful as you I'd be all over him too.  I'm still waiting for him to come close to your level of ignorance aroogance or hatered and he has not.

I certainly don;t want Sharia law to rule here.  Nor do I want Christians shoving pushing there agenda either.

Stop being a douche bag and maybe you'll find people will liten to the message your trying to send . . .if it is anythign other than pure rabid hate and violence.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



See there you go pushing your shit again "jesus can heal your mind".    

I don't need my mind healed.

I'm not the one here who seems to filled with the spirit of blind hate Bubbu you are.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
> ...



Do you think Christianity is as violent a religion as Islam?


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
> ...



You keep bawling that I'm full of hate, yet you have not given one example of my so-called hatred.  Go.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



Currently no. 

That said I think those perpetrating violence are a small minority who are twisting scripture to fit their desires.  The same as I think the "God hates fags" preacher what's his face is twsting scripture to serve his own ends.

I also think that currently there are Millions of muslims who are living in conditions that would make christians living in those some conditions violent.

But currently no I don't think that Christianity as as violent a religion.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
> ...



I was speaking of the religions.  Their doctrines.  The teachings and words of Jesus and Mohammed.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> The One True Living God is a God of Love and mercy found in Jesus christ.  *The god of islam is a devil from the pit of hell*.



Buford,  WARNING -- THis is a long rambling post - I've been interrupted 4 or 5 times while making it if you would bear with me through it and answer honsetly.

Thanking you in advance for being open minded enough to try.  (though I am not sure you will so prove me wrong and give it a go).


If you deny that the bolded sounds hateful try hearing it this way - The Christian GOd is a devil from the pit of hell".  

Sounds pretty shitty no?

Don't make me go to some of the other threads.  You know what you say and you know that it will make poeple react.

There is more under heaven adn earth than you or I can understand so stop acting like you've got all the answers cause you picked a magic book to follow.

We're all on a journey and not everyone has to agree to remain civil.

I know I've brought it up before but Christians bomb abortion clinics in this country and lots of christians say . . .hey they are not christian.

I am sure that Most Muslims see a sucide bomber and don't think " Oh another martyr!' Hooray"  - the vast majority probabally thnk Oh shit here we go again.  

OR maybe I wonder how many menmber of his family have been tortured to death by Assad (syria not sure if I spelled it right) whom we supported or the Mubarek in egypt also someone we supported.


Or there is this one from you:

Islam is a murdering hateful cult. 

And on and ON.

Try for justa minute to imagine a world where the USA is being run by a "christian" leader and you have a family member pulled out the house at 3am and two days later that person's body is left on the lawn.  Now imagine further that the "christian" in charge is being support with guns, planes, and poison gas by a member of the church of Scientology.

How are you gonna 1 feel about the "christian" leader who did that and 2 about the SCientologist who ar supporting them?

If you can put your head into that imaginary world then you living in the world that Egyptians and Syrians have been living in for 40 years.

If I change all those above and make my leader and athiest support by a wiccan I' can still see where the Muslims in the ME are coming from and why violence occurs.

In the imaginary america above we'd be suicide bombing the shit out the govt.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



Ok maybe you were but that is not what comes across.  You come across as a rabid hater.

Draw some lines don't post absolutes and it makes a huge difference.  

THough that is easier said than done.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > The One True Living God is a God of Love and mercy found in Jesus christ.  *The god of islam is a devil from the pit of hell*.
> ...



We're not discussing political correctness or moral equivalence.  Christianity is founded on love and forgiveness.  Jesus loves EVERYONE.  Mohammed said to not make friends with Christians and Jews.  

Now you tell me who is the hateful one here.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
> ...



How I come across to an ignorant lefty is not my concern and never will be.  My concern is the truth.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



As I expected Epic Fail!


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



Too bad you're too ignorant to see it.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> How I come across to an ignorant lefty is not my concern and never will be. _ My concern is the truth_.


LOL,  Buford, you and "truth" aren't even in the same zip code.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Gideonprime said:
> ...



I think everyone can easily see where the epic fail is here.


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > How I come across to an ignorant lefty is not my concern and never will be. _ My concern is the truth_.
> ...



Thanks for the confirmation that I'm right on target.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > How I come across to an ignorant lefty is not my concern and never will be. _ My concern is the truth_.
> ...



Too true. Sir too true!

I'd rep you but I can't, system won;t let me yet!


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## Buford (Jul 9, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



You two need each other's support so desperately to validate your existance.  Sad.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Thanks for the confirmation that I'm right on target.


   Yea, you are right on target Buford!!


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## Gideonprime (Jul 9, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Well no.  

Though tt is nice that not everyone is a tool like you Bubba.


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## American_Jihad (Jul 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



Welcome aboard Dajjal, I agree with you 100%...


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## Political Junky (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> The One True Living God is a God of Love and mercy found in Jesus christ.  The god of islam is a devil from the pit of hell.


You must have heard about the Inquisition. The Christians did some pretty nasty stuff to people ... burning, flaying, draw and quarter ... oh, those good Christians.


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## American_Jihad (Jul 10, 2012)

Political Junky said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > The One True Living God is a God of Love and mercy found in Jesus christ.  The god of islam is a devil from the pit of hell.
> ...



Yeah Boy, see islam still stoning, hanging gays and  lopping off heads. All the other religions progressed and modernized, islam still in the 7Th century with mOOHamMud...


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 10, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



Is the Quaran God's Word? 

In a nutshell....................................no.

It says in the beginning of the Torah (as well as the Bible) that God brought order out of chaos.

If the Quaran was God's actual word, don't you think that there would be some order to it?


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## there4eyeM (Jul 10, 2012)

As is the fact of human reality, truth is what a person believes it to be. If it were a matter of objective reasoning, none of the reigning religions would exist. 
The Koran (or whatever spelling) is true for those who choose to believe it. What I find tragic is that most individuals do not realize and experience that belief is, indeed, choice. Whole lives are lived with choices accepted without wisdom or consciousness.
So, societies are as they are. The word of God? "The voice of the people is the voice of god."


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## Liability (Jul 10, 2012)

The qu'ran:  a gibberish-laden lunatic rant about God from the perspective of the socio-pathic pedophile, Mohammed.

There is no God but God and "allah" is most certainly not His name and Mohammed is a filthy pedophile bigoted piece of crazy shit.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> As is the fact of human reality, truth is what a person believes it to be. If it were a matter of objective reasoning, none of the reigning religions would exist.
> The Koran (or whatever spelling) is true for those who choose to believe it. What I find tragic is that most individuals do not realize and experience that belief is, indeed, choice. Whole lives are lived with choices accepted without wisdom or consciousness.
> So, societies are as they are. The word of God? "The voice of the people is the voice of god."



I think the concept of choice was a great observation. In the West, religion is largely a private and personal matter. In ones day to day life, choice of religion is not an issue that someone has to address or defend. People are free to make decisions about belief, or to not believe, and there is an acceptance (sometimes grudging acceptance) that those individual choices are not a matter of concern for anyone else.

The alternative is forced religion as we see with regularity in the islamist middle east. When Islam is the "state religion", and there is overt oppression of those who might choose a faith in competition to the state religion, religious totalitarianism becomes the day to day existence for mods people.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Political Junky said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > The One True Living God is a God of Love and mercy found in Jesus christ.  The god of islam is a devil from the pit of hell.
> ...



Christians can get just as sick as anyone else when they are mislead and ignorant like muslims are.  Jesus was a man of love and peace.  Mohammed was a man of war and murder.  The two religions are inherently opposite.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Jesus was given a different mission from God than Muhammad.

Jesus came and tried to fulfill his mission but failed.

Then God sent Muhammad to complete God's work and he succeeded.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Jesus was given a different mission from God than Muhammad.
> 
> Jesus came and tried to fulfill his mission but failed.
> 
> Then God sent Muhammad to complete God's work and he succeeded.


Of course we know that's not true. When muhammud (swish) undertook the invention of Islam, he stole ruthlessly from both Christianity and Judsism, both monotheistic religions which preceded islamism, and from Arab paganism. 

It's not surprising then that Mo' (swish) would select those elements from earlier faiths that he would cobble together as part of his newly invented politico-religious ideology, even to the point of making himself a partner with the god he created.

The ideology of mohammedanism is among the most totalitarian and all-consuming ideologies ever to have warped the mind of mankind.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Jesus was given a different mission from God than Muhammad.
> 
> Jesus came and tried to fulfill his mission but failed.
> 
> Then God sent Muhammad to complete God's work and he succeeded.



Who says Jesus failed?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus was given a different mission from God than Muhammad.
> ...


Bani Israel (Tribe of Israel) had dozens of Prophets sent to them by God for several thousand years in order to straighten them out. 

But they continued to disobey God's laws and would even revert to Idol worship.

Jesus was just another in a long line of Prophets they ignored and attempt to kill.

And like all of the Prophets before him; Jesus failed to stop the Jews from sinning against God.

Finally, God turned away from the Jews and sent a Prophet to their cousins the Arabs.

Muhammad (pbuh) was the last and final Prophet sent to mankind; and that is why he is called "The Seal of the Prophets; because no Prophet would be sent after him.


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

I seem to have a long line of reds and I have only made 17 posts. I do not think I have said anything to deserve all those reds yet, so let me correct the matter.

Muhammad was an evil lying cut throat bandit and a child molester.

I spit on Allah, his rotten monster of a God, and I will never worship him even if he burns me in hell.

CAN I HAVE ANOTHER RED PLEASE?

Not only was Muhammad a false prophet he had trouble convincing the people of his own time.
He wastes many verses in his so called holy book trying to justify himself. See the following verses.


Looks like Muhammad had trouble convincing people he was not just a mad poet in his own lifetime.

021.005 "Nay," they say, "(these are) medleys of dream! - Nay, He forged it! -Nay, He is (but) a poet! Let him then bring us a Sign like the ones that were sent to (Prophets) of old!"

026.224 And the Poets,- It is those straying in Evil, who follow them:

036.069 We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:

037.036 And say: "What! shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet 
possessed?"

052.030 Or do they say:- "A Poet! we await for him some calamity (hatched) by  Time!"

069.041 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe![/QUOTE]


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Wow! I take that back I see my line of reds is gone. Thanks to whoever fixed it.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


Muhammud (swish) self proclaiming himself as the last prophet was nothing more than a continuation of the self aggrandizement that he (swish) heaped upon himself. 

If you knew anything of islamo-history, you would know that Mo' (swish) had a history of eliminating political rivals.


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Here is a piece I wrote on another forum years ago, which clearly shows that even Muhammads uncle did not believe in him. The texts I quote are out of copywright.

For those that wish to study the quran and are new to it, I recommend reading the suras in the reverse order, starting from the back at reading sura 114, and continuing through the suras in the reverse order.  The shortest suras are at the back, and they are mostly the first verses that were written anyway.
 The first verse that leaps out at you in the reverse reading of the quran is sura 111. The following is the five lines of the verse with comments about their meaning by Yusuf Ali.
It would seem to me to be one of the most damning suras in the quran, which tells the whole story of Muhammads real nature, and the source of his knowledge of the bible. He curses his own uncle to death and to burning hell, and his aunt with him.
The reason is because his uncle refused to accept him as a prophet, and  that may well be because it was his uncle who taught him the bible stories, therefore he knew Muhammad did not get any information from the angel Gabriel.

sura 111, know as, (the plaited rope) or Al Lahab (the flame)
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

111.1.  Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!  

111.2.  No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains!

111.3. Burnt soon will he be in a fire of blazing flame!

Comment: Abu Lahab, "Father of Flame", was the nick-name of an uncle of the holy Prophet, from his fiery hot temper and his ruddy complexion. He was one of the most inveterate enemies of early Islam. When the holy Prophet called together the Quraish and his own kith and kin to come and listen to his preaching and his warning against the sins of his people, the "Father of Flame" flared up and cursed the holy Prophet, saying "Perdition to thee!" According to the English saying, "the causeless curse will not come". His words were futile, but his power and strength were equally futile. The star of Islam rose higher and higher every day, and its persecuters dwindled in strength and power. Many of the leaders of persecution perished at Badr, and Abu Lahab himself perished a week after Badr, consumed with grief and his own fiery passions. Verse 3 was prophetic of his end in this very life, though it also refers to the Hereafter.  


111.4.  His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - As fuel!-  

111.5. A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre around her (own) neck! 

Comment: Abu Lahab's wife was a woman of equally passionate spite and cruelty against the sacred person of the holy Prophet. She used to tie bundles of thorns with ropes of twisted palm-leaf fibre and carry them and strew them about on dark nights in the paths which the Prophet was expected to take, in order to cause him bodily injury. "To carry firewood" may also be symbolical for carrying tales between people to embroil them. This was also one of her vices. But she was laying up for herself another kind of Fire and another kind of Rope, the Fire of Punishment, and the Rope of Slavery to Evil. Thus does Evil prepare its own fate. This is the general lesson of sustained craft and cruel wrong-doing recoiling on the wrong-doer's head. See also Introduction to this Sura.


The following is from Maududi's comments on sura 111

Wherever the Holy Prophet went to preach his message of Islam, this man followed him and forbade the people to listen to him. Rabiah bin Abbad ad- Dill has related:"I was a young boy when I accompanied my father to the face of Dhul-Majaz. There I saw the Holy Messenger (may peace be upon him) who was exhorting the people, saying: 'O people, say: there is no deity but Allah, you will attain success.'Following behind him I saw a man, who was telling the people; `This fellow is a liar: he has gone astray from his ancestral faith.' I asked; who is he?The people replied: He is his uncle, Abu Lahab." (Musnad Ahmad, Baihaqi). Another tradition from Hadrat Rabiah is to the effect; "I saw that the Holy Prophet went to the halting place of each tribe and said: `O children of so and so, I have been appointed Allah's Messenger to you. I exhort you to worship only Allah and to associate none with Him. So, affirm faith in me and join me so that I may fulfill the mission for which I have been sent.'Following close behind him there was a man who was saying: `O children of so and so, he is leading you astray from Lat and Uzza and inviting you to the religion of error and innovation which he has brought. Do not at all listen to what he says and do not follow him.' I asked my father: who is he?He replied: he is his uncle, Abu Lahab." (Musnad Ahmad, Tabarani). Tariq bin Abdullah al-Muharibi's tradition is similar. He says: "I saw in the fare of Dhul-Majaz that the Holy Messenger (upon whom be peace) was exhorting the people, saying: `O people, say La ilaha ill-Allah, you will attain success', and behind him there was a man who was casting stones at him, until his heels bled, and he was telling the people: 'Do not listen to him, he is a liar.' I asked the people who he was. They said he was his uncle, Abu Lahab." (Tirmidhi).


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



We've been over this before.  Mohammed is not spoken of in the Old Testament, but the Jewish Messiah is.  Fail.  Your indoctrination is astounding.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 10, 2012)

Oh Bubba found a new word and he's using it all over the boards "indoctrination".

You sould like a parrot squawking the newest line you've been taught.

Though your point is well taken as to the jewish messiah that the OT was talking about.

Though again, magic books is magic books so just because your made up truth doesn't match Sunni Mans made up truth I have to say is not a surprise.

Nor would pointing out all the inconsitenceies between the two books stopp either of you from worshipping what you have decided to worship.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> We've been over this before.  Mohammed is not spoken of in the Old Testament, but the Jewish Messiah is.  Fail.  Your indoctrination is astounding.


Jesus is not mentioned in the O.T

Just saying..........


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Oh Bubba found a new word and he's using it all over the boards "indoctrination".
> 
> You sould like a parrot squawking the newest line you've been taught.
> 
> ...



Blah, blah, and more blah, yet not one point to counter anything.  Fail.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > We've been over this before.  Mohammed is not spoken of in the Old Testament, but the Jewish Messiah is.  Fail.  Your indoctrination is astounding.
> ...



Cultic mind at work here, folks.

I didn't say "Jesus".  What did I say?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Although, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned in the O.T. several times.

Deuteronomy 18:18  "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him"


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## Gideonprime (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Gideonprime said:
> 
> 
> > Oh Bubba found a new word and he's using it all over the boards "indoctrination".
> ...



How can I counter any of it?  Why would I want to?  I have no dog in this fight other than to say the Koran is as much the word of god as the bible or the torah or the book of mormon or Battfield Earth.

You all have the right to believe what you want.  I think you are all wrong as I am Sure Sunniman think I am wrong adn that you are wrong and that you think he is wrong and that I wrong and a pain in the ass.

When dipshit leroux started this thread they started it to make waves and attack Islam. FOr no reason other than they disagree with it.

I on;t get you religious types at all.  If your right you win for all time when you die so why do you have to fuck things up for everyone else?  Be content that you path works for you adn will get you in the door when you kick.

Geesh!


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Although, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned in the O.T. several times.
> 
> Deuteronomy 18:18  "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him"



Rubbish, you have precisely shown the difference between real prophets and liars.
The verse you quote cannot refer to Muhammad because unlike all the real prophets, he says he received his message as dictation from the angel Gabriel

But all true prophets had the holy spirit enter them, and it spoke with their mouths.


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## Gideonprime (Jul 10, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Although, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned in the O.T. several times.
> ...



Oh no! 

All real prophets get their messages from Magic Sky Daddy's receptionist. 

Clearly you are mistaken.  I know cause they called me to confirm that.

True story!


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Muslims have made the claim that the bible predicts the coming of Muhammad, and one verse they site as refering to God sending Muhammad as another comforter is  John 14.26.  But this verse clearly states that the comforter is the Holy Ghost. The following verses are just some of the 89 references to the Holy Ghost in the New Testament, and they clearly show the Holy Ghost is a part of the trinity of God, and it is sent to enter the disciples and others, to speak through them with divine authority.

M't:1:18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

M't11: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

M'r:1:8: I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

M'r:13 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Lu:1:41: And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Lu16: John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Lu22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Lu:4:1: And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Lu:12:12: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

John:7:39: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Ac:1:5: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Ac:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Ac:1:16: Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Ac:2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac:2:33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac:4:8: Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Ac:4:31: And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Ac:7:55: But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Ac:8:15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Ac:8:17: Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Ac:8 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Ac38: How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Ac44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Ac15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Ac16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Ac24: For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

Ac:13 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Ac:13:52: And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Ac:15:8: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;


Ac2: He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Ac6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1Co:6 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2Tm:1 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

2Pe:1 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1Jo:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

God told the words to Moses and he put hem into the mouth of Aaron

Exodus 4:15  "You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do"

4:16  "He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him"


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Although, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned in the O.T. several times.
> 
> Deuteronomy 18:18  "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him"



Who is that prophecy spoken to?


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Exodus 4:15  "You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do"
> 
> 4:16  "He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him"



LOL.  So now you want us to believe that prophecy addressed to Israel were about Mohammed?


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## PratchettFan (Jul 10, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



I would say no, but not for the reasons you give.  God does write in books.  God writes in star systems and sub-atomic structure.  God writes in DNA and gravitational forces.  Man writes in books.  If you quote something from a book, you are quoting man and not God.  It doesn't matter what book.


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



In the bible the angel Gabriel appears twice, but only as an announcer of the coming of John the baptist and Jesus. Gabriel gives no message, and as my recent post shows, it is the holy Ghost that speaks throught the real prophets and the diciples.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Although, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned in the O.T. several times.
> 
> Deuteronomy 18:18  "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him"



There is no mention of muhammud (swish) in the O.T.  Your post confirms that.

Islamism was not invented by Muhammud (swish) until much later.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Exodus 4:15  "You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do"
> ...


Re-read the post nitwit.

It's about Moses and Aaron.

And how God put the words in them; just the same as he did to Muhammad (pbuh) as told in Deut. 18:18


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Re-read the post nitwit.
> 
> It's about Moses and Aaron.
> 
> And how God put the words in them just the same as he did to Muhammad (pbuh) as told in Deut. 18:18



Deut. 18:18 is speaking to Israel about the Messiah.  You're either very deceived or lying.  Read this and get back to me.  

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/deut18-18.html


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Re-read the post nitwit.
> ...


Why would I want to read something from a christian cult site?

They are just as deceived by satan as you are Buford.


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> God told the words to Moses and he put hem into the mouth of Aaron
> 
> Exodus 4:15  "You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do"
> 
> 4:16  "He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him"



This is precisely my point. God spoke through the true prophets by filling them with the holy Ghost. But Muhammad did not understand this so he claimed the angel Gabriel told him his message.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Yeah, everyone is deceived, blah, blah, blah, "taken out of context"...blah, blah, blah....."mistranslation"......blah, blah, blah......."Christian cult site"....blah, blah, blah.

When you get around to addressing one of the points, then let me know.  Jesus said the scriptures in the OT referred to him.  Was Jesus a True Prophet or a False Prophet?  Work on that one.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > God told the words to Moses and he put hem into the mouth of Aaron
> ...



This also begs the question as to why would the gods choose an intermediary? Were they too busy with their administrative duties?

Why would the gods choose to have their immutable word relegated to hearsay evidence?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> When you get around to addressing one of the points, then let me know.


Simple to do.

Christianity devolved into a cult when Paul took over and turned Jesus from a man into a God.

Muhammad (pbuh) was predicted as a Prophet in the O.T. 

And his mission was to call both Christians and Jews to return to the original monotheistic religion of Abraham.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > When you get around to addressing one of the points, then let me know.
> ...



Jesus said the OT scriptures referred to him.  Nothing in there about any of them referring to Mohammed.  Was Jesus a false prophet?


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > When you get around to addressing one of the points, then let me know.
> ...



There is nothing in the bible about Muhammad.

You sound like an indoctrinated parrot. By the way thanks for the reds.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > When you get around to addressing one of the points, then let me know.
> ...



Muhammud (swish) was never predicted in the O.T.

Further, the ideology invented by mo' (swish) is classical polytheist with mo' (swish) assigning himself as a partner to god.

Did you ever read the slogan that allows one entry into the cult of muhammud (swish)?

That slogan includes reference to Mo' ( swish)


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## Al_Fundie (Jul 10, 2012)

Of course it is, only the foolish believe otherwise.


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Al_Fundie said:


> Of course it is, only the foolish believe otherwise.



Could you define that statement?


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## Al_Fundie (Jul 10, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Al_Fundie said:
> 
> 
> > Of course it is, only the foolish believe otherwise.
> ...



What is there to define? The Qur'an is the Holy Word of Allah. Only blasphemers believe otherwise.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Al_Fundie said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Al_Fundie said:
> ...



How do you know the Quran is the Holy Word of God?


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## BlindBoo (Jul 10, 2012)

Not one word has ever been witten by a supernatural being.  Nor has one ever used a human being to write.  It's all written by man.


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

Al_Fundie said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Al_Fundie said:
> ...



You mean unbelievers? not all unbelievers are necessarily blasphemers.

But to clear the matter up for you, yes I am a blasphemer against Allah.

I spit on his name, and I suppose you think that means I deserve to burn in hell.


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## Dajjal (Jul 10, 2012)

BlindBoo said:


> Not one word has ever been witten by a supernatural being.  Nor has one ever used a human being to write.  It's all written by man.



Well I am not certain that is true. I myself have had messages from the spirit world.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

Al_Fundie said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Al_Fundie said:
> ...



The Koran is the written text of Uthman.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 10, 2012)

Al_Fundie said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Al_Fundie said:
> ...



Actually, the Quaran was created after Mohammed (who was illiterate by the way) died, and his followers wanted to remember his sayings, so they all got together and in order for something to be included, it had to be witnessed as having been said by Mohammed by no less than 2 people, which explains why there is no order to it.

As far as books written by God?  Only one that I know of, and it's the Torah which was given to the Jews because of their being God's Chosen People because of what Abraham did in finding the One True God.

Now...........in the OT, the first 5 books are the Torah (although badly translated) and the rest of the OT is the history of the Jewish people, which is why you see places where they worshipped idols, did bad things and such, because the Jews wanted their history to be transparent so that generations down the line could learn the lessons without having to go through the hardships of the experience.

The NT?  Not really sure of what it is, because it (as well as the rest of the Bible) was badly messed up by the Niecine Council when they codified the KJV of the Bible.


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## Political Junky (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Al_Fundie said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...


How do you know that the Bible is the word of God?


----------



## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Political Junky said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Al_Fundie said:
> ...



I convinced myself through diligent study as an unbeliever.  A book with that many authors and a common thread tying it all together.  There are rules an tests for prophets.  The Bible qualifies and Islam fails all of them.  Mohammed is a false prophet because Mohammed was a liar.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

LOL, no one has a clue who the writers of the N.T. were?

None of them have last names or any supporting documentation to verify their identities.

Or that they even existed.

Paul who?

Mark?

Luke?

John?


----------



## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> LOL, no one has a clue who the writers of the N.T. were?
> 
> None of them have last names or any supporting documentation to verify their identities.
> 
> ...



Was Jesus a true prophet or a false prophet?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Was Jesus a true prophet or a false prophet?


Jesus is a Prophet that is mentioned in the Quran.

So yes, Jesus was a Prophet, healer, and miracle worker.

But not the son of God or God in the flesh.

Jesus was just a man that God had chosen to warn the Jews but they wouldn't listen. 

So then God had to send Muhammad(pbuh) to complete the task.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Was Jesus a true prophet or a false prophet?
> ...



You didn't answer my question.  Was Jesus a true prophet or a false prophet?


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> You didn't answer my question.  Was Jesus a true prophet or a false prophet?


Jesus of the Quran is a true Prophet.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't answer my question.  Was Jesus a true prophet or a false prophet?
> ...



So the Jesus of the Quran is a true prophet and the Jesus of the Bible is a false prophet.  Correct?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Any verses from the Bible concerning Jesus that match the verses of the Quran about him are valid.   

But Bible verses that are different from Quranic verses concerning Jesus are false.


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## Avatar4321 (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Except God has sent prophets after him. Joseph Smith Jr. for example. Through whom the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God to the salvation of men.


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## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Any verses from the Bible concerning Jesus that match the verses of the Quran about him are valid.
> 
> But Bible verses that are different from Quranic verses are false.



How do you know?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> How do you know?


Common sense.


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## Hollie (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know?
> ...



Common sense would not lead anyone to accept excerpts of the life of Jesus that appear in Uthmans Koran. The eventual author of the Koran had an abiding interest to lie and misrepresent the life of Jesus.


----------



## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know?
> ...



Scholars don't rely on "common sense".


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Scholars don't rely on "common sense".


I agree with you that Christian Bible scholars do not have any common sense.

Otherwise, they would have rejected the false doctrine of the Trinity a long time ago.


----------



## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Scholars don't rely on "common sense".
> ...



Now we have something to talk about.  The "trinity" is biblical.  The One True Living God reveals Himself as the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in Scripture.  Since you claim to be a Bible scholar, you would obviously know the Scriptures that teach that.  

What makes you think the trinity is a false doctrine?


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 10, 2012)

Buford said:


> Now we have something to talk about.  The "trinity" is biblical.  The One True Living God reveals Himself as the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in Scripture.  Since you claim to be a Bible scholar, you would obviously know the Scriptures that teach that.
> 
> What makes you think the trinity is a false doctrine?


The so called Trinity is a later invention by church leaders.

The word Trinity is not in the Bible.

And no where does the Biblical scriptures teach this false doctrine.


----------



## Buford (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Now we have something to talk about.  The "trinity" is biblical.  The One True Living God reveals Himself as the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in Scripture.  Since you claim to be a Bible scholar, you would obviously know the Scriptures that teach that.
> ...



The word "Millenium" is not in the Bible either, but the Bible speaks of 1000 year reign.  

The Bible most certainly does teach the Trinity.  Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image.  Go ahead with your reply, since I already have a reply to yours.


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 11, 2012)

The use of the royal sense of "we" may explain the way it is expressed in the KJV.

Whatever one believes is true until one accepts another truth. Jesus said, "if you believe this mountain has been thrown into the sea, it has" (to paraphrase without distorting the meaning).

If, in a religious way, you believe in Jesus or not, just reading what the man said shows he was enlightened. What I find interesting is that Jesus left no writings. Since this must have been a conscious choice, we are left to wonder what his abstinence signifies.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Jul 11, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



Might wanna check again.........................

Trinity says that there's only 3.  

However............................

There are more than that.


----------



## Ancient lion (Jul 12, 2012)

Yes it is

 THE QUR&#8217;AN The Only True Container of the Word of God


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## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Ancient lion said:


> Yes it is
> 
> THE QUR&#8217;AN The Only True Container of the Word of God



Who are you trying to convince, others or yourself?


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

If God is the author of the Quran we are all in big trouble. Because he is a semi literate, mumbling monster.


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.

The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.

7.157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find  mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;

7.158 day: So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet,

62.2 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among  themselves:

But there are three verses in the Quran that mention the Psalms of the Bible by name. sura 4.163 sura 17.55 and sura 21.105 

The Quran also mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.

sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4  sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura  40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura 

Muslims will try to argue that Muhammad had no access to the bible, but the above references from the Quran show he was well aware of its existence. 
The Greek Bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the Quran quotes Bible story after Bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously not a part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda. There has been much work done on Bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the Quran claims them all as a previous message from God.

The following hadith shows that Muhammad sent for the torah and had it read out to him. It also shows his cruelty in having people stoned to death.


Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809: 
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: 

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess. 




Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.


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## Moonglow (Jul 12, 2012)

And I say that all religious text are not written by God, nor was the authors under the control of their god.


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## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> If God is the author of the Quran we are all in big trouble. Because he is a semi literate, mumbling monster.



If the Quran is the Word of God, then God is a murderous mysogynistic pedophile.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> If the Quran is the Word of God, then God is a murderous mysogynistic pedophile.


You do realize that the O.T. and the Quran both contain almost identical laws?  

So why would you blaspheme your God that way?


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > If the Quran is the Word of God, then God is a murderous mysogynistic pedophile.
> ...



Yes, I understand that.  Mohammed bastardized much from the Word of the One True Living God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I would be guilty of blaspheme if your god was the One True Living God who wrote the Quran, but He didn't.   You're deceived.


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

I have written a peice on blasphemy, and here it is.

The quran states quite clearly that God is one, and it is a blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God, at sura 5.72 and it is a blasphemy to say God is part of a trinity. at sura 5.73.

Sura 5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary"

Sura 5.73  They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God.

 But the bible says you may be forgiven for blasphemy against Jesus, but to deny the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. Therefore if the bible is right then Muhammad was an unforgivable blasphemer. 
Only one book can be right, and there is no room for adjustment here. So it is quite clear that the quran does not confirm all the previous messages, as it claims to do at sura 10.37

Sura 10.37 This quran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of revelations that went before it, and a fuller explanation.


It is clear where Muhammad got the idea of claiming he received the quran from the angel Gabriel in the bible, as the angel is sent to Zacharias to tell him of the coming of John the baptist at Luke 1.11 to 1.20 The angel Gabriel also visited Mary to tell her about Jesus at Luke 1.27

But the bible states that it was the Holy Ghost that spoke through Jesus, and later the through the disciples, so the angel Gabriel was not required to tell the word of God, as God himself in the form of the holy Ghost speaks with the mouth of his true messengers.
Therefore what doubt can there be that Muhammad invented a lie about God, and said he was told what was written on a tablet in heaven, and he remembered the message and passed it on to his followers. There can be no clearer indictment of Muhammad as a false prophet than the denial of the trinity, and the power of the holy spirit to speak through a true messenger. 
Muhammad could not speak without thinking about his words, as he might contradict himself or make errors. Which of course, he did do anyway. But he gave himself time to go away and think up his next statement by claiming he had to get the message from Gabriel.


The following are the bible texts that state  denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin, but denying Jesus is not.

Matthew:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew:12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke:12 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


These are some more verses that explain the concept that the Holy Ghost is God within us. which is the message Muhammad denies, and for which there is no forgiveness.

1Co:6 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co:12 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Jo:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


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## Liability (Jul 12, 2012)

Ancient lion said:


> Yes it is
> 
> THE QURAN The Only True Container of the Word of God





How can the Qur'an be a true container when the fucking stupid work of fiction is so completely filled up with contradictions?

Silly Muslims:  faithful followers of a sociopathic pedophile.  Mohammed was a fucking lowlife scumbag.  There's no way God would send an Angel to deliver His word to a scumbag rancid camel twat like Mohammed, much less in the form of a self-contradictory whacked out irrational collection of incoherent gibberish like the Qur'an.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> I would be guilty of blaspheme if your god was the One True Living God who wrote the Quran, but He didn't.   You're deceived.


God of the Bible and Allah of the Quran are 100% identical.   

Deep down in your heart Buford you know this to be true but hate to admit it.

Truth........


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> You do realize that the O.T. and the Quran both contain almost identical laws?



See my recent post for details of how Muhammad stole his texts from the bible.

By the way, thanks for the three reds, can I have another please.
It will not do you any good because someone has given me a lot of positive rep points.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > I would be guilty of blaspheme if your god was the One True Living God who wrote the Quran, but He didn't.   You're deceived.
> ...



One day you tell me the Bible is full of errors and not to be believed and then the next day you tell me the Bible contains the Word of God.  I'll admit that you're one confused person.


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## Liability (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > I would be guilty of blaspheme if your god was the One True Living God who wrote the Quran, but He didn't.   You're deceived.
> ...



Nonsense.

The "Allah" referenced in the Qur'an is alleged to be the ONE TRUE GOD, the God of Abraham.

But since the Qur'an is a work of idiotic fiction, there is no rational basis to say that the God of the Jewish people and Christians is the same entity whom the adherents of Islam call Allah.


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Here are some of the people the Allah of the quran is supposed to have destroyed. The people of Lot, and Thalmud, and Ad, and Pharaoh, and Sodom and Gomorrah, and Tubba.

Is Allah a maniac? is Allah a monster? but most of all is he completely incompetent, that he has to keep destroying people. Well the obvious answer is that God is none of these things, because he did not dictate the quran, it was all made up by Muhammad.

7.4 How many towns have We destroyed (for their sins)? Our punishment took  them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest.

8.54 (Deeds) after the manner of the people of Pharaoh and those before them": They treated as false the Signs of their Lord: so We destroyed them for their crimes, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh: for they were all oppressors and wrong- doers.

10.13 Generations before you We destroyed when they did wrong: their apostles came to them with clear-signs, but they would not believe! thus do We requite those who sin!

17.17 How many generations have We destroyed after Noah? and enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.

18.59 Such were the populations we destroyed when they committed iniquities; but we fixed an appointed time for their destruction.

19.74 But how many (countless) generations before them have we destroyed, who were even better in equipment and in glitter to the eye?

19.98 But how many (countless) generations before them have We destroyed? Canst thou find a single one of them (now) or hear (so much as) a whisper of them? 

44.37 What! Are they better than the people of Tubba and those who were before them? We destroyed them because they were guilty of sin.


053.050 And that it is He Who destroyed the (powerful) ancient 'Ad (people),

53.53 And He destroyed the Overthrown Cities (of Sodom and Gomorrah).

54.34 We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,-

69.5 But the Thamud,- they were destroyed by a terrible Storm of thunder and lightning!

69.6 And the 'Ad, they were destroyed by a furious Wind, exceedingly violent;


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## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> One day you tell me the Bible is full of errors and not to be believed and then the next day you tell me the Bible contains the Word of God.  I'll admit that you're one confused person.


For the hundredth time Buford.

Bible verses that agree with verses in the Quran we accept.

All other verses we reject as false.


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## Al_Fundie (Jul 12, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > You do realize that the O.T. and the Quran both contain almost identical laws?
> ...



Stole from the Bible did he? Well , I can "prove" that Christians stole many of their celebrations from pagans. Celebrating the birth of a man who was most probably born in June in the month of December anyone?


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > One day you tell me the Bible is full of errors and not to be believed and then the next day you tell me the Bible contains the Word of God.  I'll admit that you're one confused person.
> ...



Yea, and the bible says Jesus was the son of God, and the quran says he was not.

And the bible says Jesus was crucified, and the quran says he was not.

NOW I UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF THE CRUSADES.

I just wish Islam had been wiped out in the middle ages, because we would not have to bother with you now.

Can I have another red please, to add to the four you have given me.


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## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > One day you tell me the Bible is full of errors and not to be believed and then the next day you tell me the Bible contains the Word of God.  I'll admit that you're one confused person.
> ...



Yes, I know that.  The sad part is you don't see any problem with that.  That's why you're deceived.


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## there4eyeM (Jul 12, 2012)

The etymology of the name Allah and that represented by YHWH are not identical.

Hundreds of years before the Koran appeared, it was written that Jesus told the Pharisees, "before Abraham was, I am." He also said, "No one comes to the Father but by me." Simple statements to understand, but not in the context of integration into Islam.

Jesus was not illiterate and in fact probably could read and write three or four languages. It is indicated at one point that he was writing something on the ground. Yet he did not leave tomes for us. If the written word is so essential to faith and understanding, why did this enlightened, highly intelligent individual leave nothing?

Even for those of us who do not practice a religion, the logic involved is evident.


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## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Al_Fundie said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Speaking of Jesus.......Do you believe Jesus was a true prophet or a false prophet?


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Al_Fundie said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Here are three verses that show many people of Muhammads own time did not believe in him, but he tried to justify himself claiming the holy spirit taught him. But he mistook the meaning of the holy spirit in the bible, thinking the angel Gabriel was the messenger. But the holy spirit is part of the trinity, and it spoke though Jesus and the diciples. The angel Gabriel only announced the coming of John the baptist and Jesus, but gave no message to them.


16.101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

16.102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> And quote another magic book doesn;t make this any more relevant.
> 
> You clearly think you know the will and word of god which buts you high up on the full of shit meter.



He's showing how ridiculous your insidious religion is, Abdul.

Lo, Allah is an absurdity for foolish children.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Gideonprime said:


> So you have issue with the Jews and Christians too?  I mean seeing as they worship the same god and all.



You know full well they don't worship the same god. You Muslims worship Ba'al and bow to his Idol, the Phallic or Black stone, which is in the Kaaba in Mecca. You bow to it 5 times daily, just as the Ba'al worshipers in ancient Babylon did. Muhammad simply recycled a Djin from the Parthenon of the Mesopotamians. 



> You seem to be heavy on the muslim hate.



Islam sucks, like Nazism and the Khmer Rouge - it is a creed of evil, formed by a violent and bloodthirsty warlord.



> Maybe you should spread it around some.  Or did the dead not give you any marching orders on that front?



What is the position of your Koran on the dead speaking? What are the Satanic Verses?


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## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

If Allah is the One True Living God, then why are all the muslim men such cowards and wife beaters who hide behind baby carriages while they toss bombs are children?


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## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Douger said:


> PLease post a picture of Gawd. A video would be better.



Dood, look at my Avie.

She is absolutely convinced she is god.


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> If Allah is the One True Living God, then why are all the muslim men such cowards and wife beaters who hide behind baby carriages while they toss bombs are children?



Muahmmad even made up quranic verses to control his wives, here is a sample of one.

33.30 O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly
conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for God.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> If Allah is the One True Living God, then why are all the muslim men such cowards and wife beaters who hide behind baby carriages while they toss bombs are children?



Allah is a chunk of meteorite. Allah is an idol of stone.


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## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > If Allah is the One True Living God, then why are all the muslim men such cowards and wife beaters who hide behind baby carriages while they toss bombs are children?
> ...



If Islam wasn't disguised as a religion, it would be destroyed like nazism, the KKK, and any other hateful murderous agenda.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> If Islam wasn't disguised as a religion, it would be destroyed like nazism, the KKK, and any other hateful murderous agenda.


Jealous??


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> If Islam wasn't disguised as a religion, it would be destroyed like nazism, the KKK, and any other hateful murderous agenda.



Give it time. Islam may have lasted 1400 years, and several crusades, but that was before the Internet. I do not think Islam will last another 100 years, let alone a 1000.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > If Islam wasn't disguised as a religion, it would be destroyed like nazism, the KKK, and any other hateful murderous agenda.
> ...



Why would I be jealous of a hateful, murderous, chicken shit cult?  Ignorance keeps it going and tools like you are common.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> If Islam wasn't disguised as a religion, it would be destroyed like nazism, the KKK, and any other hateful murderous agenda.



There is no rational reason in the world that Islam should be treated any different than (neo)Nazism.

While we would not kill or assault a Nazi on the street, neither would we excuse or accept them. We should treat Muslims in an identical fashion, these are followers of a violent, evil creed, which seeks the murder or enslavement of the world. Many Nazis are perfectly pleasant to speak to. Most have never committed any crime. They speak of their hate of Jews, but few have acted on it. Yet we still recognize that Nazism is evil and that the followers of Nazism should be shunned as disreputable and dangerous. The same is true of Islam.


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## there4eyeM (Jul 12, 2012)

Only free individual choice is defensible. All religions that require exclusive belief are blasphemy.


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

I have said this many times on several forums. The best weapon against Islam is the Quran.

Islam can be defeated by showing that their holy book cannot be the words of God.

This battle can be won by scholars in a library, and we can save a lot of bullets and smart bombs.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > If Islam wasn't disguised as a religion, it would be destroyed like nazism, the KKK, and any other hateful murderous agenda.
> ...



Exactly.  Same poison, different label.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I have said this many times on several forums. The best weapon against Islam is the Quran.
> 
> Islam can be defeated by showing that their holy book cannot be the words of God.
> 
> This battle can be won by scholars in a library, and we can save a lot of bullets and smart bombs.



Not as long as there are indoctrination madrassas in Pakistan and other places.  I think this is just starting.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

World wide Islam has reached 1.5 million adherents and growing every day.


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## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> World wide Islam has reached 1.5 million adherents and growing every day.



Does that make you feel secure?  My security comes from the One True Living God, not from the number of who believe.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> Does that make you feel secure?  My security comes from the One True Living God, not from the number of who believe.


I just like being on the winning team!!


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> World wide Islam has reached 1.5 million adherents and growing every day.



You cannot be serious, the figure you quote should be billion, not million. Go back to school and study arithmetic.


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## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> I just like being on the winning team!!



The Nazis and the Japanese felt the same way, but they got their heads cracked open.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Does that make you feel secure?  My security comes from the One True Living God, not from the number of who believe.
> ...



The size of your team doesn't make you the winner.  Read your Bible.  Jesus Christ wins in the end.  I'm in Christ.  Good luck.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > I have said this many times on several forums. The best weapon against Islam is the Quran.
> ...



Do not despair, the quran is bunk, and in the end the entire world Will know this.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> World wide Islam has reached 1.5 million adherents and growing every day.



Sadly, it is 1.3 BILLION people, not million. Those born into Islam have no choice, if they convert or are found examining alternatives, they WILL be murdered. Islam is a vile and evil cult that enslaves those within it's snare.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> Does that make you feel secure?  My security comes from the One True Living God, not from the number of who believe.



There are nearly twice as many Christians, so fear not the Muslims numbers.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Does that make you feel secure?  My security comes from the One True Living God, not from the number of who believe.
> ...



Evil will be defeated in the end.  I am assured of that in Jesus Christ and it gives me great peace of mind.


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## there4eyeM (Jul 12, 2012)

'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion. Intellectually, that is not a very credible method of counting. Brainwashing is a poor use of human spirit.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> Evil will be defeated in the end.  I am assured of that in Jesus Christ and it gives me great peace of mind.



I follow no god, but Christians aren't trying to cut my head off, so I do side with them.

I am Kifirum to the Muslims, one who denies Allah.

I don't really deny Allah, I just point out the fact that Allah is a hunk of stone in the Kaaba.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> 'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion.


Births or conversions; it all adds up.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> > 'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion.
> ...



It may all add up at the moment, but muslims are not monkeys.

Muslims have the same sized brains as all other human beings.

Therefore, sooner or later all the brainwashed muslims will start thinking for themselves, and they will see the Quran is evil lies, and not the words of God.

Can I have another red please?


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> 'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion. Intellectually, that is not a very credible method of counting. Brainwashing is a poor use of human spirit.



Look at how they've used the Palestinians.  They don't care about humanity.  Islam is all about power and rule.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> > 'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion.
> ...



Your evil heart is being revealed.  You're imagining a world run by Islam being a glorious thing.  You're deceived.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> It may all add up at the moment, but muslims are not monkeys.
> 
> Muslims have the same sized brains as all other human beings.
> 
> ...



The vast majority of Muslims are held by force. Islam is a violent and brutal cult. Those who leave the faith are murdered by other Muslims on order of clerics. At some point those who are forced to remain Muslim will overwhelm those who are Muslim by choice, at which time they will rise up. It happened in Dagistan when the Chechens attempted to yoke them under Islam. It was happening in East Timor until the Muslims murdered a couple hundred thousand for attempting to be Christian.

A "religion" that is based on force, violence, and threats of violence can only stand so long.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> You're imagining a world run by Islam being a glorious thing.


Yes, it will be glorious!!


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> > 'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion.
> ...



Just like a military recruiting office. All soldiers, numbers to be counted like any other things to be used. 

Bravo.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Yes, it will be glorious!!



For whom?

Not for the millions murdered by the followers of the warlord Muhammad.

You know Islam will fail, it cannot survive knowledge. Modern technology dooms Islam. You cannot hide the truth.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Here is the true psychology of Muhammad revealed in the quran. He says Gods curse in on those who annoy him, and he makes rules about how to behave in his house. But worst of all he threatens his wives with twice the punishment of normal wives and says it is all Gods will.

Quran suras
33.57 Those who annoy God and His Apostle - God has cursed them in this World  and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment.

33.30 O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for God.

33.53 O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but God is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > You're imagining a world run by Islam being a glorious thing.
> ...



Sad.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > You're imagining a world run by Islam being a glorious thing.
> ...



Can't you see it will never ever happen?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> > 'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion.
> ...



 It's a bit of a stereotype: the goofy islamist convert attempting to use his religion to intimidate people. It happens a lot where islamists use the "fastest growing religion", nonsense as a subtle threat. 

The comical part is that people such as Sunni man live in the West (and exploit the benefits of Western civilization) because their islamist paradises are foul backwaters of internecine hatreds, tribal rivalries, poverty and early death. People such as Sunni man are safely ensconced in their Western lifestyles and would no sooner live under the strictures of an islamist sharia state than others in this thread would. 

There is nothing in islamist sharia state that allows for the personal freedoms, standard of living and freedom from religious oppression that Westerners frequently take for granted. We tend to think that the freedoms we enjoy are just the natural order of things. Most of us have never had to be concerned with religious police interfering in our lives or being hauled off to jail for some minor infraction of a Dark Ages theocratic code invented by a 7th century Arab warlord. 

The worst nightmare a goofy convert could envision would be to actually have to spend time in the sharia state. That's why the converts choose to live under the protections afforded them by a secular constitution as opposed to living in a sharia state governed by bearded Loons in man-dresses.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Jul 12, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.
> 
> The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.
> 
> ...



Actually, the Quaran wasn't dictated by Mohammed, because they didn't start to write it until AFTER he died.  And..........it wasn't so much stuff from the Bible, but rather quotes and sayings and stories that Mohammed had passed on to others.  In order to be included, the passages or whatever had to be witnessed by no less than 2 Muslims who actually heard Mohammed say it.

The Quaran is nothing more than a mixed up book of hearsay.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



According to your book, maybe.

However...............there are many other ways to get into Heaven, it just depends on what spiritual path you follow.


----------



## Buford (Jul 12, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I'll stick with Jesus.  Good luck.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 12, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Actually, the Quaran wasn't dictated by Mohammed, because they didn't start to write it until AFTER he died.  And..........it wasn't so much stuff from the Bible, but rather quotes and sayings and stories that Mohammed had passed on to others.  In order to be included, the passages or whatever had to be witnessed by no less than 2 Muslims who actually heard Mohammed say it.
> 
> The Quaran is nothing more than a mixed up book of hearsay.



That would be more the Hadiths.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 12, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.
> ...



a mixed up book of hearsay, I have to agree and I think it goes even deeper than that.

The Koran is not in chronological order and I suspect that may have been done by Uthman for a specific reason. Even with multiple translations of the koran, the life and character of Muhammud (swish) can be examined. When you do so, and especially when you correlate the hadith with the koan in its actual chronological order, its remarkable to see how much Muhammud's (swish) attitudes and sayings changed over time. What becomes obvious is Mos (swish) transformation from a spritual movement he created to a political movement. 

That is why Islamism is much more closely aligned with the so-called "fundamentalists" than it is to the so-called moderates."


----------



## ABikerSailor (Jul 12, 2012)

Buford said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



You DO realize that Jesus was Jewish (which is why He was in Jerusalem on Passover just prior to being crucified), right?


----------



## Avatar4321 (Jul 13, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.
> ...



I'd also point out that the main reason they wrote it does is because there were corrupt teachings being passed down by word of mouth. There is little reason to believe that that which was written were actually what Mohammad taught and not the false teachings that were propagated at a later point in time.

My guess is the latter.


----------



## Buford (Jul 13, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



LOL.  Yes, Jesus is Jewish.  All of the first Christians were Jewish.  What is your point?


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 13, 2012)

It looks as if this thread has had it, but just to add a thought...

Many posts were negative toward Islam and few were positive.

Many were declarations of practice of Christianity.

Some posts pointed out that similar criticisms could be made of both religions, and Judaism as well. This included not only scriptural validity, but also how the religion was reflected in its followers' actions.

Most people have a concept of 'God'. Even professed atheists have an image and reject it, but it is there nevertheless. 

We have seen that Followers Of Islam (hereafter F.O.I.) become agitated at 'pictures' of their spiritual leader. There are no actual pictures of the person in life, so only mental images exist in the minds of F.O.I. Otherwise, they would not recognize any external representation.

Few of these images are fully developed thoughts about what 'God' would have to be in order to fulfill the job description. 

With our sciences, we have discovered an incredible universe in every direction we have looked. There is more than enough to marvel at and love for its beauty and complexity. A creature such as we are can not help but stand before this in a loving awe. 

If God exists, this is God's work. It is so totally out of our comprehension that this magnificence could exist that this God must be beyond our faintest capacities to speak about. Anything we could say about God would only demean God. Saying, "God is great!" is already giving God a size.

How could God ever be put into words? Wise men, and especially Jesus, did not say what God was, they said what God was like.

There are people who do not practice any outwardly evident religion. They depend on direct experience of what is. They understand that only the individual can ever know what the individual knows. It can not be transfered to another, nor the other's to the person. Believing otherwise is superstition.


----------



## Liability (Jul 13, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> It looks as if this thread has had it, but just to add a thought...
> 
> Many posts were negative toward Islam and few were positive.
> 
> ...



That's a lot of words to say "zzzzz."


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 13, 2012)

Didn't mean to wake you.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 13, 2012)

Hollie said:


> a mixed up book of hearsay, I have to agree and I think it goes even deeper than that.
> 
> The Koran is not in chronological order and I suspect that may have been done by Uthman for a specific reason. Even with multiple translations of the koran, the life and character of Muhammud (swish) can be examined. When you do so, and especially when you correlate the hadith with the koan in its actual chronological order, its remarkable to see how much Muhammud's (swish) attitudes and sayings changed over time. What becomes obvious is Mos (swish) transformation from a spritual movement he created to a political movement.
> 
> That is why Islamism is much more closely aligned with the so-called "fundamentalists" than it is to the so-called moderates."




What is (swish)?

I am familiar with (PBUH) or "Peace Be Upon Him" and (MHBH) or "May He Burn in Hell," but (swish) is new to me?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 13, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> You DO realize that Jesus was Jewish (which is why He was in Jerusalem on Passover just prior to being crucified), right?



Did Jesus say something about a "new covenant?"  Seems I remember some minor mention....


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > &#8220;a mixed up book of hearsay&#8221;, I have to agree and I think it goes even deeper than that.
> ...


It's along the same lines as MHBH although, swish does lose something in the translation with the accompanying sound effect of a golf club swinging through the air.

Swat may wofk better.


----------



## Liability (Jul 13, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> Didn't mean to wake you.



I have been awake.  Your special dull contributions could put everyone to sleep.


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## there4eyeM (Jul 13, 2012)

You play your part well. Well, you play your part.
Continue.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 13, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> You play your part well. Well, you play your part.
> Continue.



Yes he does, and someone desperately NEEDS to play the smart guy in this thread, so thank Liability and move on!


----------



## AmericanFirst (Jul 13, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...


No, the quran is a book of ideas by a pedophile who stole the sense from millions.


----------



## AmericanFirst (Jul 13, 2012)

hjmick said:


> First, your premise presumes that the Bible is the word of GOD rather than a collection of parables intended to help men, and women, lead good and moral lives.
> 
> 
> Second, have you read the Bible? GOD asks for and does mighty nasty stuff between those covers...


The Bible is God's word. If you read it and understand it, you would know it. God doesn't do nasty stuff, man does. Carry on mr. nasty.


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 14, 2012)

If 'God's word' is written anywhere, it is in a person's heart. Anything else would be too difficult to define, and we see that is the case in the world.
If 'God' does not exist, then of course no book is the word of God.


----------



## TheGreatGatsby (Jul 14, 2012)

*The Quran was written by none other than....*

Answer to be posted later.


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 14, 2012)

Can't wait to see this!


----------



## ABikerSailor (Jul 14, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You DO realize that Jesus was Jewish (which is why He was in Jerusalem on Passover just prior to being crucified), right?
> ...



Nothing was said about that.  You might wanna re-read Matthew 5:17...

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

The Jews ALREADY had a covenant with God.  Jesus came for everyone else (i.e. the Gentiles).


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 14, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> The Jews ALREADY had a covenant with God.  Jesus came for everyone else (i.e. the Gentiles).


You are wrong and have it totally backwards.

Jesus stated exactly who he came for when he declined to help the gentile woman..

Matthew 15:24  But He answered and said, I was sent _only _to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


----------



## The Professor (Jul 14, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Was Jesus a true prophet or a false prophet?
> ...



I'm a little confused.  I understand that Muhammad is always venerated by writing pbuh (peace be upon him) after his name; however, when I read Muslim references to Jesus, I always see the same sign of respect.  I am curious why you did not place pbuh after each mention of  Jesus as you did after the name of Muhammad.


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 15, 2012)

At the risk of interjecting logic, isn't it likely that any book that contained the irrefutable word of God would have proven itself so conclusively that debate would not be possible, especially after hundreds of years?
There is no magic formula on the printed page. The magic is in the mind. Even Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is within you." Looking for truth and God outside one's self is illusion.


----------



## Ancient lion (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > The Jews ALREADY had a covenant with God.  Jesus came for everyone else (i.e. the Gentiles).
> ...



Exactly


----------



## notatallanti (Jul 15, 2012)

What of Jesus' reference to existing before Abraham?


----------



## Truthseeker420 (Jul 15, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE]Zeitgeist (2007) - Part 1 - Religion - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 15, 2012)

Invoking the name of Chomsky will almost certainly call down the wrath of all who claim to defend the right.


----------



## Buford (Jul 15, 2012)

Ancient lion said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



The problem might be in the interpretation.  Yeah, I think I'll use that one since it's a standard excuse for muslims dealing with the Quran.  How about you give us your interpretation of that Scripture.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 15, 2012)

Buford said:


> Ancient lion said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


This verse has Nothing to do with muslims you nitwit.

Nor does it need any interpretation.

Jesus clearly stated in this verse and others; that his earthly mission was specifically directed to the house of Israel (Jews) and Not to the gentile people.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 15, 2012)

Hey! sunni man, thanks for my latest red, that is five you have given me now. But no amout of reds is going to save your doomed religion. Here is another piece I wrote critcizing the quran.

CAN I HAVE ANOTHER RED PLEASE?

There are those who point to sura 57.25 as evidence of science in the Quran, as it says Allah sent down Iron. But we know for a fact that the planet was formed by gravity pulling heavy atoms together, so Iron was already here at the formation of the earth. Besides the phrase sent down is common language in the Quran and appears 89 times. Among the other things Allah is supposed to have sent down are manna and quails, and eight head of cattle in pairs. Allah is also supposed to have sent down a table of food (The last supper) but this does not appear in the Bible. Here are the references. 

57.25 We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them  the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that God may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles: For God is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).


2.57 And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and  quails, saying: "Eat of the good things We have provided for you:" (But they  rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.


20.80 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you on the right side of Mount (Sinai), and We sent down to you Manna and quails:


39.6 He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. such is God, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 15, 2012)

I have found many bible myths repeated in the quran, and these in themselves are unbelievable, but there are Arab myths too.
According to Arab mythology a man that preceded Muhammad called Salih, said he was a prophet too, and the people did not believe him . So he split a rock and produce a she camel. Then the people of Thamud hamstrung the camel, so Allah destroyed them. The details of this story are absent from the quran but it is mentioned.
Here is the Pickthall translation of the quranic references to Thamud, the she camel.

007:073  And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.

011:064   O my people! This is the camel of Allah, a token unto you, so suffer her to feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with harm lest a near torment seize you.

026:155  He said: (Behold) this she-camel. She hath the right to drink (at the well), and ye have the right to drink, (each) on an appointed day.


091:013 And the messenger of Allah said: It is the she-camel of Allah, so let her drink!


----------



## Buford (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Ancient lion said:
> ...



You might look smarter if you insert a comma between "muslims" and "nitwit".  

Jesus was sent to the Jews and rejected, thereby fulfilling prophecy.  Read this, Mr. muslim nitwit.  

Acts 13:46-47......"Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.  For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

I have made you a light for the Gentiles, 
    that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth."


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 15, 2012)

Buford said:


> Jesus was sent to the Jews and rejected, thereby fulfilling prophecy.  Read this, Mr. muslim nitwit.
> 
> Acts 13:46-47......"Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.  For this is what the Lord has commanded us:


Sorry, but I reject the words of Paul the usurper and destroyer of Christianity.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus was sent to the Jews and rejected, thereby fulfilling prophecy.  Read this, Mr. muslim nitwit.
> ...



You shouldn't reject it. Muhammud the thief, (swish) stole most of the religion he invented from Christianity.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Sorry, but I reject the words of Paul the usurper and destroyer of Christianity.



Then why can't you reject the words of Muhammad? who's deceitful ramblings completely undermine the basic tenants of Christianity.


----------



## Buford (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus was sent to the Jews and rejected, thereby fulfilling prophecy.  Read this, Mr. muslim nitwit.
> ...



Of course you do.  How convenient.  A good muslim believes what he's told.


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 15, 2012)

There is no generally acceptable proof that any work is the word of God.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 15, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> There is no generally acceptable proof that any work is the word of God.



No, but it can be logically deduced that the quran cannot possibly be the words of God.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 15, 2012)

Buford said:


> Of course you do.  How convenient.  A good muslim believes what he's told.


In much the same way that a good Christian believes what he is told.


----------



## Buford (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you do.  How convenient.  A good muslim believes what he's told.
> ...



I used the Scriptures.  Try again, Mr. muslim nitwit.


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you do.  How convenient.  A good muslim believes what he's told.
> ...



A really 'good' Christian would only listen to Jesus.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 15, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Buford said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you do.  How convenient.  A good muslim believes what he's told.
> ...



The problem we are having is that a good Christian is told to turn the other cheek.
BUt the quran teaches Muslims to cut off the heads and fingertips of unbelievers.

Not only that but the quran says the world is flat, and the sun orbits the earth.


----------



## Buford (Jul 15, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Buford said:
> ...



Not only that, but the Quran in 86: 5-7 says that a man's semen comes from his backbone....


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 15, 2012)

Buford, yea! I wrote a piece on so called, medical miracles in the quran, and here it is.



Quran sura 22.5 O Mankind! if ye have a doubt about the resurrection (consider) that we created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out  of a leech like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh partly formed and partly unformed, in order that we may manifest (our power) to you. And we cause whom we will to rest in the wombs for an appropriate term. Then do we bring you out as babes, then (foster you) That ye may reach your age of full strength; Translated By Yusuf Ali.

Anyone who believes this brief verse in the quran referring to the embryo is a revelation from God should study the writings of Galen. He was born in AD129 and his writings are a truly staggering insight into the workings of the human body for such a time. He discusses the function of the womb and the uterus, and the development of the embryo and foetus. Most of his knowledge came from observation and the dissection of animals, and most of his false assumptions doubtlessly come from the fact he did not dissect human bodies.
His works were originally written in Greek, but were translated into Latin and Arabic. Such knowledge was in the world 500 years before Muhammad's time, and Hippocrates made astounding medical observations one thousand years before Muhammad. Since sura 22 was reputedlty revealed in Madinah, or during the later Makkan period Muhammad had already spent ten years or more aquiring the spoils of War, and it is known that books were highly prised items, so knowledge of Galen's writings could have been acquired from looted manuscripts. 

Here are some brief extracts from Galens, On the natural faculties, book3. These texts being rich in detailed factual observations.

"For, as we know it takes nine months in most women for the foetus to attain maturity in the womb, this organ having its neck quite closed, and entirely surrounding the embryo together with the chorion."

The following quote shows Galen fully understood the role of sex in the reproductive process.

"The women believe they have received the semen which comes from the male, and they are retaining it."

Finally Galen shows that Hippocrates(c 460-c370 BC) before him was aware of details of pregnancy 500 years earlier.

"Hippocrates, who was the first of all physicians and philosophers to declare that the os uteri closes during pregnancy and inflammation."

Predating this detailed Greek scientific knowledge formed from observation and dissection of near human animals, the bible itself shows knowledge of the womb and conception.

The word womb appears 71 times in the King James Bible. Here are some pertinent extracts.

OT  Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

OT Hosea 9:14 Give them, O Lord; what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

NT Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

NT Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. 

Here is one of many verses that states man was formed from dust.
OT Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the Ground,
The bible also talks of the seed of copulation at Leviticus 15:16 and 15:17 and 15:18. So there is no revelation in using the word sperm, and in fact other English translations, such as Pickthall use the word seed, not sperm, so the exact translation of the Arabic word makes no difference to the implication that such knowledge was in the world. 
In short there is no new information in the quran concerning the birth process, unless one claims that the mention of a leech like clot of blood is a revelation that describes a new embryo. But for a man who had eleven wives, and was fully aware of the links between menstrual blood, and the lack of it during pregnancy, it only took one miscarriage for him to see a tiny foetus for himself. Therefore verse 22.5 of the quran did not require any revelation from God, as Muhammad could have been well aware of most of what is involved in the natural process of gestation.


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## there4eyeM (Jul 15, 2012)

Looks as if your opposition has abandoned the field in the face of Koranic awareness. Guess he is looking for a 'Sunni' day somewhere else.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 20, 2012)

There is an aspect of the quran which I have not yet discussed, which also shows it cannot be the words of God, and that is it is full of nonsense. Here is a verse which says an ant talked, and king Solomon heard her.

27:18  Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said: O Naml, enter your houses, (lest) Solomon and his hosts crush you, while they know not.  
27:19  So he smiled, wondering at her word, and said: My Lord, grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good such as Thou art pleased with, and admit me, by Thy mercy, among Thy righteous servants.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 20, 2012)

So a talking _ant_ is just too far fetched.

But a talking_ donkey_ in the Bible is perfectly acceptable and normal?

Numbers 22:30  The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said.


----------



## TheGreatGatsby (Jul 20, 2012)

TheGreatGatsby said:


> *The Quran was written by none other than....*
> 
> Answer to be posted later.



*The great Satan himself.*

What? You think God calls pedophiles to spread hateful nonsense? You have to be a real sucker and/or a hateful a-hole to be Muslim.


----------



## TheGreatGatsby (Jul 20, 2012)

LOL Sunni Man neg'd the above post. Your religion was created by an asshole pedophile dude. Wise the fuck up.

Or maybe you are wise. You just need your excuse to hate on Jews though.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 21, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> So a talking _ant_ is just too far fetched.
> 
> But a talking_ donkey_ in the Bible is perfectly acceptable and normal?
> 
> Numbers 22:30  The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said.



Neither is acceptable to reason, and neither is a message  from God.

The quran is a mumbling, semi literate, poorly narrated imitation of the bible stories.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 21, 2012)

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Or maybe you are wise. You just need your excuse to hate on Jews though.



When have I ever hated on Jews??

Israel - Yes, I have.

Zionists - also Yes 

Jews - Nope


----------



## TheGreatGatsby (Jul 21, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> > Or maybe you are wise. You just need your excuse to hate on Jews though.
> ...



Ahh. Thank you for the clarification. We'll return to the point then. Islam is a load of crap and you know it.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 21, 2012)

Actually, I am quite content with my decision to embrace Islam.

And haven't found any flaws in either it's teachings or doctrine..


----------



## Liability (Jul 21, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Actually, I am quite content with my decision to embrace Islam.
> 
> And haven't found any flaws in either it's teachings or doctrine..



That's because you are blind, stupid, gullible and retarded.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 21, 2012)

Liability said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I am quite content with my decision to embrace Islam.
> ...


Thanks for not being too harsh on me.

You must be having a good day!!


----------



## Jroc (Jul 21, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> > Or maybe you are wise. You just need your excuse to hate on Jews though.
> ...



As long as they're locked up they're fine



Sunni Man said:


> *My solution to the Jewish problem. *
> 
> Would be to round them up world wide and find and island to quarantine them on.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jroc (Jul 21, 2012)

Liability said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I am quite content with my decision to embrace Islam.
> ...



Here's a* real American* muslim. Sunni boy is a wanna to be, radical, shariah law whack job... Not too bright.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P35E31THd8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P35E31THd8[/ame]


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## there4eyeM (Jul 21, 2012)

The solution is to realize there is no problem. 

Jews are a religious group, not a race.
Religion is voluntary.
Anyone can be Jewish.
There is only one race.
Everyone is genetically almost identical to everyone else.

Thinking otherwise is to join with Nazi propaganda.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 21, 2012)

Just like blacks have their Uncle Tom's who are traitors to their people.

We have our Uncle Muhammad's like this guy in the video.


----------



## Jroc (Jul 21, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Just like blacks have their Uncle Tom's who are traitors to their people.
> 
> We have our Uncle Muhammad's like this guy in the video.



You're a wanna be Sunni boy.... Sad little man, which is why I don't even bother with you most of the time. Zuhdi Jasser is an American patriot, you're a joke. Wanna be Just trying to fit in aren't you


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## Sunni Man (Jul 21, 2012)

Zuhdi Jasser is a joke in the Muslim American community.

He is a strong supporter of the terrorist state of Israel.

And has also vocally been in favor of both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

Basically, the guy is a sock puppet for rabid Islamophobes and Zionists.

Also;

Congressman Keith Ellison, the first Muslim in history to be elected to the US Congress, has been highly critical of Zuhdi Jasser. In a debate, congressman Ellison told Mr. Zuhdi Jasser, "I think you give people license for bigotry. I think people who want to engage in nothing less than Muslim-hating really love you a lot because you give them freedom to do that. You say, 'yeah, go get after them'.

Zuhdi Jasser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SW2SILVER (Jul 21, 2012)

It's all bullshit. We can burn all the korans, all the bibles, all the torahs. It 's sheer delusion to  believe any organized religion speaks for a supreme being. It's arrogance. It's pathetic.  It's weak.  It's all too human. Punch your Rabi, your Mullah or your Priest in the nose. They are con artist and frauds.  Kick em' in da nutz. Or better yet, forgive them, they know NOT what they are doing.


----------



## Jroc (Jul 21, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Zuhdi Jasser is a joke in the Muslim American community.
> 
> He is a strong supporter of the terrorist state of Israel.
> 
> ...



Who gives a shit what Kieth Ellison says or you for that matter ..Both Wanna be converts


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## SW2SILVER (Jul 21, 2012)

Well, no. I might wipe wipe my ass on it, but believe it? Not gonna happen, sweetcheeks. Allah, God, or  the cosmic pickle DOES NOT reside in, nor is represented by, ANY religion  past present or future. It's fiction. Islam is just a beautiful lie. Like all other religions, it's a fraud. It is the word of MAN. Weak deluded and superstitious MEN.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Actually, I am quite content with my decision to embrace Islam.
> 
> And haven't found any flaws in either it's teachings or doctrine..



That's only because (as you yourself have said before) that you failed at Christianity, and then turned to Islam.

I guess it's easier to swallow a larger lie eh?


----------



## there4eyeM (Jul 22, 2012)

As was said earlier, by definition God could not be expressed in words, so a book being the word of God could only at best be in the sense of a guide and not absolute.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Actually, I am quite content with my decision to embrace Islam.
> 
> And haven't found any flaws in either it's teachings or doctrine..



Don't worry, I have found them for you.


----------



## Buford (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Just like blacks have their Uncle Tom's who are traitors to their people.
> 
> We have our Uncle Muhammad's like this guy in the video.



Oh my God.  That's a very ignorant post.  I can easily see why you swallow the Islamist propaganda.  Useful idiot.


----------



## Buford (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Zuhdi Jasser is a joke in the Muslim American community.
> 
> He is a strong supporter of the terrorist state of Israel.
> 
> ...



People who stand up to the bigotry and hate from Islam are "muslim haters" and "Islamophobes".  LOL.


----------



## Buford (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Zuhdi Jasser is a joke in the Muslim American community.
> 
> He is a strong supporter of the terrorist state of Israel.
> 
> ...



People who stand up to the bigotry and hate from Islam are "muslim haters" and "Islamophobes".  LOL.  

Sunni man and keith Ellison......Dumb and Dumber.


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## Dajjal (Jul 22, 2012)

Here is a clear indication from the quran and hadiths that Muhammad made up his message based upon the ideas of his time. He clearly states the sun goes to a resting place, and that should be enough for any thinking person to see he was not getting a message from God.


Quran sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.


The following from Hadith Bukhari confirms that Muhammad thought the sun went to a resting place and gives details that cannot be interpreted any other way.


Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421: 
Narrated Abu Dhar: 

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)


----------



## Buford (Jul 22, 2012)

That's almost as crazy as the Quran stating a man's sperm comes from his backbone.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 22, 2012)

The Sun and Moon in the quran 

Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.

sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.
sura 36.39 And for the Moon. We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled leaf
Sura 36.40 It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon,nor does the night outstrip the day. They float, each in an orbit.

The quran is clearly stating that the Sun has an orbit and the only realistic meaning of these verses is that Muhammed believed the Sun orbits the earth. Those that claim this shows incredible insight by Muhammed who realized the Sun had an orbit in the galaxy are talking rubbish. The quran shows clearly the limits of Muhammeds knowledge.
For one thing the Sun and Moon meet at every eclipse, for another there is often a visible Moon during the day, so day and night are not so separate as the quran suggests. The verse about the Moon shriveling shows no knowledge of the fact the light of the Sun is illuminating it from a different angle. 
The Sun also does not run to a resting place, not unless you believe Greek mythology. Besides the quran goes on to say.

sura 25.61 Blessed be he who has placed in the heaven mansions of stars, and has placed therin a great lamp and a moon giving light.

sura 71.16 And has made the Moon a light therein, and made the Sun a lamp.

These verses show Muhammed calls the Moon a light, which makes clear he did not know it was reflecting the Suns light. He clearly regards the Sun and Moon as separate sources of light, one for the day and the other for night.

Sura 81.1 When the Sun is overthrown.
sura 81.2 And when the Stars fall.

The Stars will never fall as they are outside our gravity. In fact the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But Muhammed thinks the Stars are just lamps to throw at devils, not distant Suns. as proved below.

Sura 67.5 And verily we have beautified the worlds heaven with lamps. And we have made them missiles for devils.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 22, 2012)

Dear Sunni man. It may surprize you to know that I realize I may be hurting you. I am not unaware of what it feels like to have your sacred beliefs torn to pieces by unsympathetic bastards.

But do not worry, you can live without Islam. You survived abandoning christianity didn't you?

I may tell you what I really believe on some other thread, and it involves practical experience of the occult. But for now let me explain the one and only real meaning of the quran. It is all about Muhammad controlling people and making them fight his rotten wars for him. There are many verses in the quran that say, "obey Allah and the messenger" and what that really means is, obey Muhammad.
Otherwize he threatens you with the wrath of God.

Therefore the only real meaning of the quran is to obey Muhammad, a medieval bandit.
We are past that now are  we not?

Read the following verses and you will see they all say Obey Allah, "AND THE MESSENGER"


3.32 Say: "Obey God and His Apostle": But if they turn back, God loveth not those who reject Faith.

3.132 And obey God and the Apostle; that ye may obtain mercy.

4.13 Those are limits set by God: those who obey God and His Apostle will be  admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.

4.14 But those who disobey God and His Apostle and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment.

4.59 O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

4.69 All who obey God and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of God,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!

5.92 Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.

8.1 They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of God and the Apostle: So fear God, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey God and His Apostle, if ye do believe."

8.20 O ye who believe! Obey God and His Apostle, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).

8.46 And obey God and His Apostle; and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For God is with those who patiently persevere:

9.71 The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy:for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

24.52 It is such as obey God and His Apostle, and fear God and do right, that will win (in the end),


24.54 Say: "Obey God, and obey the Apostle: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Apostle's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)

33.33 And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey God and His Apostle. And God only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.


47.33 O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the apostle, and make not vain your deeds!

49.14 The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye  (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to God,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey God and His Apostle, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

58.13 Is it that ye are afraid of spending sums in charity before your private consultation (with him)? If, then, ye do not so, and God forgives you, then (at least) establish regular prayer; practise regular charity; and obey God and His Apostle. And God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

64.12 So obey God, and obey His Apostle: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our  Apostle is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

72.23 "Unless I proclaim what I receive from God and His Messages: for any that disobey God and His Apostle,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 22, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Therefore the only real meaning of the quran is to obey Muhammad, a 14th century......


Correction

6th century


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Therefore the only real meaning of the quran is to obey Muhammad, a 14th century......
> ...



Too late, I edited the error. See your latest red, and take note.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 23, 2012)

Sunni man, so I guess we are getting down to hate now. I guess you must be spreading rep around so you can red me. The count is now ten reds in a few days and that is against the rules of the forum, and you tell me to go cry to the mods. Well I will just dispense with rep points from now on because I don't need them, and in any case redding me will not save your rotten God Allah from the truth. Here is something worthy of a red.

Allah is an evil rotten monster, and Muhammad was his glove puppet.

Here are some quranic verses which show that Allah is a monster, and not worth worshiping. Anyone who worships a God that would do these things to a human being should be shot. That is why we are shooting the Taliban.


22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.

22.20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.

22.21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.

22.22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 23, 2012)

Liability said:


> That's because you are blind, stupid, gullible and retarded.



Sunni is a prison convert. I guess becoming Muslim kept him from being Bubba's bitch in the joint.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jul 23, 2012)

SW2SILVER said:


> It's all bullshit. We can burn all the korans, all the bibles, all the torahs. It 's sheer delusion to  believe any organized religion speaks for a supreme being. It's arrogance. It's pathetic.  It's weak.  It's all too human. Punch your Rabi, your Mullah or your Priest in the nose. They are con artist and frauds.  Kick em' in da nutz. Or better yet, forgive them, they know NOT what they are doing.



Burn a bible and Obama will praise you. Burn a Koran and the Muslims will riot, Obama and Romney will both condemn you and you will most likely be arrested.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 23, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni man, so I guess we are getting down to hate now. I guess you must be spreading rep around so you can red me. The count is now ten reds in a few days and that is against the rules of the forum, and you tell me to go cry to the mods. Well I will just dispense with rep points from now on because I don't need them...


Tissue?


----------



## Buford (Jul 23, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni man, so I guess we are getting down to hate now. I guess you must be spreading rep around so you can red me. The count is now ten reds in a few days and that is against the rules of the forum, and you tell me to go cry to the mods. Well I will just dispense with rep points from now on because I don't need them...
> ...



Thanks once more for proving how sick Islam is.  You make our case day in and dayout.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Jul 23, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> SW2SILVER said:
> 
> 
> > It's all bullshit. We can burn all the korans, all the bibles, all the torahs. It 's sheer delusion to  believe any organized religion speaks for a supreme being. It's arrogance. It's pathetic.  It's weak.  It's all too human. Punch your Rabi, your Mullah or your Priest in the nose. They are con artist and frauds.  Kick em' in da nutz. Or better yet, forgive them, they know NOT what they are doing.
> ...



Do you have any proof of that, or is this just more of your unsubstantiated bullshit designed to smear the current President?

Personally?  I would think it would be Mittens that would praise you for burning a Quaran.  His religion hated black people up until the 1970's.


----------



## theHawk (Jul 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



The pedophile Prophet Muhammed simply highjacked the pagan religion of his day.  Including the pagan moon god 'Allah' that was already being worshipped at Mecca along with many other gods long before Muhammed showed up.  All he did was destroy the other gods and maintained Allah as the chief god.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 24, 2012)

The quran states quite clearly that God is one, and it is a blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God, at sura 5.72 and it is a blasphemy to say God is part of a trinity. at sura 5.73.

Sura 5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary"

Sura 5.73  They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God.

 But the bible says you may be forgiven for blasphemy against Jesus, but to deny the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. Therefore if the bible is right then Muhammad was an unforgivable blasphemer. 
Only one book can be right, and there is no room for adjustment here. So it is quite clear that the quran does not confirm all the previous messages, as it claims to do at sura 10.37

Sura 10.37 This quran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of revelations that went before it, and a fuller explanation.


It is clear where Muhammad got the idea of claiming he received the quran from the angel Gabriel in the bible, as the angel is sent to Zacharias to tell him of the coming of John the baptist at Luke 1.11 to 1.20 The angel Gabriel also visited Mary to tell her about Jesus at Luke 1.27

But the bible states that it was the Holy Ghost that spoke through Jesus, and later the through the disciples, so the angel Gabriel was not required to tell the word of God, as God himself in the form of the holy Ghost speaks with the mouth of his true messengers.
Therefore what doubt can there be that Muhammad invented a lie about God, and said he was told what was written on a tablet in heaven, and he remembered the message and passed it on to his followers. There can be no clearer indictment of Muhammad as a false prophet than the denial of the trinity, and the power of the holy spirit to speak through a true messenger. 
Muhammad could not speak without thinking about his words, as he might contradict himself or make errors. Which of course, he did do anyway. But he gave himself time to go away and think up his next statement by claiming he had to get the message from Gabriel.


The following are the bible texts that state  denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin, but denying Jesus is not.

Matthew:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew:12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke:12 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


These are some more verses that explain the concept that the Holy Ghost is God within us. which is the message Muhammad denies, and for which there is no forgiveness.

1Co:6 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co:12 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Jo:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


The only conclusion anyone can really draw from this complete contradiction between the message of the New Testament, that the Holy Ghost enters true prophets, and God speaks through them,  and the message of the quran that Muhammad claims he received as dictation from the angel Gabriel.
 Is that Muhammad has committed the unforgivable blasphemy by denying The holy ghost and that Jesus was a part of God, and as a consequence denying the concept that God is within us all. So by the terms of the New Testament, Muhammad has and consigned himself to hell.


----------



## Dajjal (Jul 31, 2012)

If you really want to know where Muhammad was coming from, read sura 8 "spoils of war"

He starts the thread by saying all spoils of war belong to him, but later in the thread he realized that no one would fight his rotten wars for him unless they got something out of it, so he changed it to saying he would only get one fifth of the spoils, or booty of war.

An entire sura (chapter) of a so called holy book talking about dividing up the spoils of war.

DID GOD TELL MUHAMMAD TO DEMAND ONE FIFTH OF THE SPOILS OF WAR?

Give me a break, and use your brains.

Muhammad was a very clever bandit who stole the idea of frightening silly Arabs into fighting his wars for him. He promised them paradise if they died in battle, and hellfire if they did not fight.

Did Jesus or the Buddha ever say give them spoils of war?

The time for this crap is over. The crusades may have failed but the truth will prevail today.

The time for Islam is over.


----------



## Steelplate (Jul 31, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> The Sun and Moon in the quran contain obvious falsehoods.
> 
> Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.
> 
> ...



just to play devil's advocate here....The Catholic Church killed and imprisoned people for disputing that the Earth was the center of the Universe. That's right, the church's official stance was that the Earth was the center 9f the universe and everything in it revolved around US.

So trying to make another religion look "bad" for believing something very similar to what OUR own church believed is kind of low, don't you think? In fact, I don't recall reading in the Bible anywhere(although, I admit to not being familiar with all of the Old Testament) that the even TRIED to tackle such questions. Other than Genesis, where it describes the first 7 days of creation.


----------



## Avatar4321 (Aug 1, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > SW2SILVER said:
> ...



1) Why would Romney praise anyone for burning a Quran? He doesn't hate muslims. and He isnt disrespectful to people of other religions. In fact, he's so respectful that some leftiests got to complaining about him being respectful to the Jews when he wore a yarmulke at the Temple mount the other day.

2) Mormons dont hate black people. Never did. Never will. In fact, one of the reasons we were kicked out of Missouri was because we opposed slavery and our neighbors in the State were threatened by the fact that we were growing to be a political force that would ruin their racist ways.


----------



## Avatar4321 (Aug 1, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> The time for Islam is over.



Oh really? I don't see Christ back yet. Till that happens, I don't expect the time of Islam to be over. 

Tell me, do you think that you will fair better when Christ comes?


----------



## ABikerSailor (Aug 1, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...



Really?  Then why did the Mitt-wit say that being better off financially was because of cultural reasons?

And................if Mormons didn't hate black people, then why is it that they didn't allow blacks to become bishops until 1978?

Try again Avitard.............your bullshit is weak.


----------



## Noomi (Aug 1, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni man, so I guess we are getting down to hate now. I guess you must be spreading rep around so you can red me. The count is now ten reds in a few days and that is against the rules of the forum, and you tell me to go cry to the mods. Well I will just dispense with rep points from now on because I don't need them, and in any case redding me will not save your rotten God Allah from the truth. Here is something worthy of a red.
> 
> Allah is an evil rotten monster, and Muhammad was his glove puppet.
> 
> ...



I do not belong to any kind of religion. But I have enough respect to accept the beliefs of others, and not to insult their religion in the way that you do.

You need to grow up.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 1, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Do you have any proof of that, or is this just more of your unsubstantiated bullshit designed to smear the current President?
> 
> Personally?  I would think it would be Mittens that would praise you for burning a Quaran.  His religion hated black people up until the 1970's.



Are you kidding?

Dove World Outreach Center Quran-burning controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

US Army BURNS CHRISTIAN BIBLES in Afghanistan

You leftists are like so stoned you have no grasp of reality at all, aren't you?


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 1, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> just to play devil's advocate here....The Catholic Church killed and imprisoned people for disputing that the Earth was the center of the Universe.



It did? How many did it kill?

As many as Islam killed yesterday? A third that many?

You CAN document ONE, can't you? No?



> That's right, the church's official stance was that the Earth was the center 9f the universe and everything in it revolved around US.



Oh my Obama, I'm faux shocked...



> So trying to make another religion look "bad" for believing something very similar to what OUR own church believed is kind of low, don't you think? In fact, I don't recall reading in the Bible anywhere(although, I admit to not being familiar with all of the Old Testament) that the even TRIED to tackle such questions. Other than Genesis, where it describes the first 7 days of creation.



That, and killing more people every month than the Catholics did in the entire Inquisition.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 1, 2012)

Noomi said:


> I do not belong to any kind of religion. But I have enough respect to accept the beliefs of others, and not to insult their religion in the way that you do.
> 
> You need to grow up.



You don't belong to any religion, but Islam hates the United States, so that's good enough for you.

Yeah, they'd cut your head off as a Kafir (Atheist/Idolitor) BUT they hate the USA, so you'll overlook that...


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 2, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> SW2SILVER said:
> 
> 
> > It's all bullshit. We can burn all the korans, all the bibles, all the torahs. It 's sheer delusion to  believe any organized religion speaks for a supreme being. It's arrogance. It's pathetic.  It's weak.  It's all too human. Punch your Rabi, your Mullah or your Priest in the nose. They are con artist and frauds.  Kick em' in da nutz. Or better yet, forgive them, they know NOT what they are doing.
> ...



You've still to link to an article where Obama praised ANYONE for burning a Quaran.  The post where you thought you answered the question was linked to the Terry Jones incident and the other was some bullshit Christian blog site.  Sorry, but the answer in post 335 doesn't cut it.

Like I said Uncensored, got any REAL proof that Obama will praise anyone who burns a Quaran?

Because................apparently...........all you have is unsubstantiated bullshit.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 3, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> You've still to link to an article where Obama praised ANYONE for burning a Quaran.



????

I've little doubt that Obama would want anyone burning a Koran to have their head cut off on Al Jazeera.



> The post where you thought you answered the question was linked to the Terry Jones incident and the other was some bullshit Christian blog site.



Wikipedia?



> Sorry, but the answer in post 335 doesn't cut it.
> 
> Like I said Uncensored, got any REAL proof that Obama will praise anyone who burns a Quaran?



You're off your meds bud.



> Because................apparently...........all you have is unsubstantiated bullshit.



Come back when you're lucid.


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 3, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> SW2SILVER said:
> 
> 
> > It's all bullshit. We can burn all the korans, all the bibles, all the torahs. It 's sheer delusion to  believe any organized religion speaks for a supreme being. It's arrogance. It's pathetic.  It's weak.  It's all too human. Punch your Rabi, your Mullah or your Priest in the nose. They are con artist and frauds.  Kick em' in da nutz. Or better yet, forgive them, they know NOT what they are doing.
> ...



Still waiting for proof that Obama will praise you if you burn a Bible.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 6, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Really?  Then why did the Mitt-wit say that being better off financially was because of cultural reasons?



Because it's true. Wealth creation is influenced by individuals doing certain things. Cultures that dont encourage individuals to the things that create wealth, wont create wealth like the cultures that do. That has absolutely nothing to do with respecting one's religion as religion and culture aren't the same.



> And................if Mormons didn't hate black people, then why is it that they didn't allow blacks to become bishops until 1978?



If you want to discuss the priesthood, you need to understand that priesthood restrictions prior to 1978 had nothing to do with skin color and everything to do with ancestory.

However, to make a long conversation short - Why was the Gospel not taken to the Gentiles prior to Peter recieving the revelation to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles? Why was the Aaronic Priesthood limited to the levites (more specifically Aaron and his sons) in Moses's day?

Because God has an order to things. He controls and directs His work. 



> Try again Avitard.............your bullshit is weak.



Of course my BS is weak. I havent given you any. I would have to give you BS before it could be strong. That's kind of obvious to anyone who thinks about it.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 6, 2012)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > I do not belong to any kind of religion. But I have enough respect to accept the beliefs of others, and not to insult their religion in the way that you do.
> ...



Wow your an idiot. Kafir refers to idol worshippers at the time of Quraysh, and fighting them, Quraysh ambushed Muslims who fled into deserts in medina and they had a fair and square battle


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 6, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Really?  Then why did the Mitt-wit say that being better off financially was because of cultural reasons?
> ...



R u kidding me man? The occupation is the reason palestinaisn don't have an economy. Are your rally that naive to blame it on culture! Wow! Israel's GDP is 31,000 and palestinains of gaza and west bank is 1,500 dollars so Romney was way off anyway. 

But if you wanna compare Arabs and Israelis well here 
GDP per capita:
Qatar-102,700
Kuwait-48,800
UAE-46,200
Israel-31,000
So that must mean Arab culture is better than Jewish culture? No I'm not a fucking idiot like Romney I don't believe it has anything to do with culture


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 6, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> R u kidding me man? The occupation is the reason palestinaisn don't have an economy. Are your rally that naive to blame it on culture! Wow! Israel's GDP is 31,000 and palestinains of gaza and west bank is 1,500 dollars so Romney was way off anyway.
> 
> But if you wanna compare Arabs and Israelis well here
> GDP per capita:
> ...



There is no occupation. The idea that the Jews have no claim to Judea is absolutely absurd. 

And we arent talking about arab culture. We are talking specifically about palestinian culture. The one that is sadly more concerned about strapping bombs to children than teaching them how to live in peace with their neighbors.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 6, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > R u kidding me man? The occupation is the reason palestinaisn don't have an economy. Are your rally that naive to blame it on culture! Wow! Israel's GDP is 31,000 and palestinains of gaza and west bank is 1,500 dollars so Romney was way off anyway.
> ...



Bullshit you motherfucker first the palestinains are fAKE to you and just Arabs. Now you are talking about Arabs. Also there is an occupation international law states it even Israel does, the siege on gaza is an occupation same with west bank, palestinains cannot control what goes in and out their borders=occupation. 

Also go fuck yourself about Jews have a claim to Judaea and samaria in other words present day west bank so you are saying Jews should take over all the west bank because some 4,000 year old book claims Jews own that land. So let's the Quran says Muslims actually own the land and Muslims occupied Israel tomorrow, what they are gonna tell the Jews our book says so? Quite being foolish man...


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## pvsi. (Aug 7, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.


Copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Bullshit you motherfucker first the palestinains are fAKE to you and just Arabs. Now you are talking about Arabs. Also there is an occupation international law states it even Israel does, the siege on gaza is an occupation same with west bank, palestinains cannot control what goes in and out their borders=occupation.
> 
> Also go fuck yourself about Jews have a claim to Judaea and samaria in other words present day west bank so you are saying Jews should take over all the west bank because some 4,000 year old book claims Jews own that land. So let's the Quran says Muslims actually own the land and Muslims occupied Israel tomorrow, what they are gonna tell the Jews our book says so? Quite being foolish man...



Im sorry you're losing your argument. but if your solution is to get angry and swear, well, you are going to be angry for a long time. Which is pretty sad.

International law is pretty fluid. The idea that jews can illegally occupy Judea is obsurd. The region is named after them. Oh but i suppose thats why you have to lie and call it the west bank instead. When you have to lie about names, it's usually not a good indication that your position is strong.

And no. If the Palestinians seized control of Israel, they wouldnt tell the jews anything. Sadly, the nutjobs in charge of the Palestinians would simply execute them.


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > R u kidding me man? The occupation is the reason palestinaisn don't have an economy. Are your rally that naive to blame it on culture! Wow! Israel's GDP is 31,000 and palestinains of gaza and west bank is 1,500 dollars so Romney was way off anyway.
> ...



So...........Palenstinian culture tends to make people poor?  Really?  Got any proof, or are you gonna take Mitt-wit's word for it?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit you motherfucker first the palestinains are fAKE to you and just Arabs. Now you are talking about Arabs. Also there is an occupation international law states it even Israel does, the siege on gaza is an occupation same with west bank, palestinains cannot control what goes in and out their borders=occupation.
> ...



I'm losing the argument? You deny there was any occupation which is a diseaster if you actually believe that then you bring up a hilarious claim to Jerusalem and west bank by saying the bible said its for Jews, what kind of bs is that? Seriously is that all you got? Jews can occupy all the land because god gave them land according to you?


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> So...........Palenstinian culture tends to make people poor?  Really?  Got any proof, or are you gonna take Mitt-wit's word for it?



Who is going to make more money, the group of people teaching their children to educate themselves and work hard, or the group of people teaching their children to strap bombs to their chest for political reasons?

It's not exactly rocket science here.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> I'm losing the argument? You deny there was any occupation which is a diseaster if you actually believe that then you bring up a hilarious claim to Jerusalem and west bank by saying the bible said its for Jews, what kind of bs is that? Seriously is that all you got? Jews can occupy all the land because god gave them land according to you?



You wouldn't be angry if you were winning it, now would you?

I didnt mention the Bible whatsoever. I just pointed out that its pretty pathetic to try to claim that the Jews have no right to Judea. The very fact that you have to rename Judea and call it the west bank shows that you know the argument is absurd as well.

But then, I can understand why you wouldnt want the Bible used. It does point out the absurdity of your position.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > I'm losing the argument? You deny there was any occupation which is a diseaster if you actually believe that then you bring up a hilarious claim to Jerusalem and west bank by saying the bible said its for Jews, what kind of bs is that? Seriously is that all you got? Jews can occupy all the land because god gave them land according to you?
> ...



Do you live a cave or something? There hasn't been a judea for thousands of years and it wasn't empty for Jews to claim land they lost thousands of years ago. European Jews can't claim land


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > So...........Palenstinian culture tends to make people poor?  Really?  Got any proof, or are you gonna take Mitt-wit's word for it?
> ...



What kind of bigoted statement was that? Do you watch Glenn beck or Robert spencer?

Wow what a sickening statement. Political reasons? You need to get educated


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Do you live a cave or something? There hasn't been a judea for thousands of years and it wasn't empty for Jews to claim land they lost thousands of years ago. European Jews can't claim land



Really? Cause it's still right there where it's always been.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



I am educated. I just dislike it when people tie bombs to little kids and send them into populated areas. I don't think that's a good way to encourage economic growth and create wealth. Silly me.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Do you live a cave or something? There hasn't been a judea for thousands of years and it wasn't empty for Jews to claim land they lost thousands of years ago. European Jews can't claim land
> ...



It's not called judea and Samaria and neither does it belong to Jews


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...



There was never a child bomber can you quit lying for once? Sucide bombing ended way long ago anyways i don't get where you are going with this? You just hate Palestinians or something? Come out of your closet already


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...



Mr professor explain how it is possible to promote economic growth when Israel controls all your borders? Israel doesn't want Palestinians to have economic growth so they can keep their occupation going, wiki leaks did a great job of leaking the article that Netanyahu wanted to keep the gaza economy on brink of collapse list some facts fucking idiot


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## MHunterB (Aug 7, 2012)

I believe a developmentally disabled teenager qualifies as a 'child' - and there's been at least one of those attempting mass murder by suicide bomb.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> There was never a child bomber can you quit lying for once? Sucide bombing ended way long ago anyways i don't get where you are going with this? You just hate Palestinians or something? Come out of your closet already



Oh so suicide bombing ended long ago? News to me. When did it end? What were the circumstances of it ending?

I don't hate the Palestinians. I wish they would stop supporting people who want to exterminate their neighbors. I wish they would stop blaming their problems on their neighbors.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



So renaming it means it doesnt exist.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 7, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Mr professor explain how it is possible to promote economic growth when Israel controls all your borders? Israel doesn't want Palestinians to have economic growth so they can keep their occupation going, wiki leaks did a great job of leaking the article that Netanyahu wanted to keep the gaza economy on brink of collapse list some facts fucking idiot



It's called you work hard, you promote peace, and you dont try to wage war with your neighbors every time you turn around.

It's not Israel that's preventing them from developing.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > There was never a child bomber can you quit lying for once? Sucide bombing ended way long ago anyways i don't get where you are going with this? You just hate Palestinians or something? Come out of your closet already
> ...



Sucide bombing ended back in 04, you clearly hate Palestinians. Exterminate? How the hell are Palestinians exterminatiing Israelis explain this man


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Mr professor explain how it is possible to promote economic growth when Israel controls all your borders? Israel doesn't want Palestinians to have economic growth so they can keep their occupation going, wiki leaks did a great job of leaking the article that Netanyahu wanted to keep the gaza economy on brink of collapse list some facts fucking idiot
> ...



Israel occupies gaza and west bank for the last time! They want to purposely keep them at brink, Israel wants their state to be Jewish dominated so they will never negotiate quit bullshitting, and judea and Samaria was not judea and Samaria until Jews came to that land , you wanna call it judea and Samaria or west bank whatever Palestinians live in that land the land doesn't cry for Jews to step on the dirt


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 7, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Mr professor explain how it is possible to promote economic growth when Israel controls all your borders? Israel doesn't want Palestinians to have economic growth so they can keep their occupation going, wiki leaks did a great job of leaking the article that Netanyahu wanted to keep the gaza economy on brink of collapse list some facts fucking idiot
> ...



Another lie Palestinians aren't capable of waging war your getting out of control now


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## Dajjal (Aug 8, 2012)

Here is a forum where criticism of the quran is taken seriously. There is a thread that says the quran cannot be from God.
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



Oh so peace broke out in the middle east? Good to know.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...



Typical response ingnored half of the facts, you didn't know how to respond to my first two comments so you ignore them, you lost the discussion. Your absurd arguments About Palestinians being able to wage war is over the top and shouldn't be discussed so again made sense out of you


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 8, 2012)

Hey...............even the Muslims don't believe the Quaran is the actual Word of God, because it states quite plainly that most of what is in it were quotes from Mohammed.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 8, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey...............even the Muslims don't believe the Quaran is the actual Word of God, because it states quite plainly that most of what is in it were quotes from Mohammed.



Another islamophobe? Lol only in your mind Muslims don't believe the Koran is Gods word


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 8, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Hey...............even the Muslims don't believe the Quaran is the actual Word of God, because it states quite plainly that most of what is in it were quotes from Mohammed.
> ...



Actually no.  I've been looking into Islam and their religion ever since 2001, because I feel it's better to understand something rather than just being afraid of it.

BTW............look sometime into how the Quaran was composed.  Mohammed was illiterate, and after his death, his followers got together and wanted to put down a book of all his sayings and quotes.

In order for a quote or saying to be written down, it had to be witnessed as being actually said by Mohammed by no less than 2 witnesses.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 8, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



Wrong Koran is divine. And of course you read it after 2001 to find anything you felt contradicted your thoughts and rejected it. So now you don't know wack


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 8, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey...............even the Muslims don't believe the Quaran is the actual Word of God, because it states quite plainly that most of what is in it were quotes from Mohammed.



No....he preached what was in the Koran and what God told him to preach that's why his quotes sound similiar, and he didn't write the Koran how would he know how a sperm becomes in a womb, and How would he know the universe is expanding? In the Koran it says God is expanding the universe so please try harder next time this is rubbish


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## Dajjal (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> No....he preached what was in the Koran and what God told him to preach that's why his quotes sound similiar, and he didn't write the Koran how would he know how a sperm becomes in a womb, and How would he know the universe is expanding? In the Koran it says God is expanding the universe so please try harder next time this is rubbish



I have written a piece on Muhammad's so called knowledge of the womb, it is a few pages back on this thread. It explains there was such knowledge in the world long before Muhammad's time. As for the quran saying the universe is expanding, Which translation are you using?  because its ambiguous at best. Here are the most well known translations of the verse you refer to.

51:47
Pickthall- We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).  

Yusuf Ali- With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.  

Hilali-Khan- With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.  

Shakir- And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.  

Sher Ali- And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.  

Khalifa- We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.  

Arberry- And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.  

Palmer- And the heaven - we have built it with might, and, verily, we do surely give it ample space!  

Rodwell -And the Heaven - with our hands have we built it up, and given it its expanse;  

Sale -We have built the heaven with might; and we have given [it] a large extent:


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > No....he preached what was in the Koran and what God told him to preach that's why his quotes sound similiar, and he didn't write the Koran how would he know how a sperm becomes in a womb, and How would he know the universe is expanding? In the Koran it says God is expanding the universe so please try harder next time this is rubbish
> ...



Read it in Arabic it's very clear? And what proof? No one knew that at the time you guys are a fuckin joke


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > No....he preached what was in the Koran and what God told him to preach that's why his quotes sound similiar, and he didn't write the Koran how would he know how a sperm becomes in a womb, and How would he know the universe is expanding? In the Koran it says God is expanding the universe so please try harder next time this is rubbish
> ...



Koran is read in Arabic I thought you were an expert on the Koran but you haven't read it in Arabic? Looooolllll you fool


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## Dajjal (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Koran is read in Arabic I thought you were an expert on the Koran but you haven't read it in Arabic? Looooolllll you fool



If you can read Arabic, maybe you can translate verse 51.47 for us.

I do not believe the Muslim excuse that you cannot know what is in the quran unless you can read Arabic. I compare many translations, and I think I can have a pretty good idea what the quran says. If not then what about all the so called muslims who cannot read Arabic.

Presumably they follow a doctrine they cannot know, and by your logic it is muslim converts who are fools for following a religion they cannot understand.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Koran is read in Arabic I thought you were an expert on the Koran but you haven't read it in Arabic? Looooolllll you fool
> ...



And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)


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## uscitizen (Aug 9, 2012)

Is the Quran Gods words? 

I say no because God does not exist.


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## Dajjal (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)



Not your own translation, I think. It is the exact same wording as Harun Yaha.



CJ531: Qur'an on expanding universe


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
> ...



That's the right translation the hanafi agree on? Anything else?


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## Dajjal (Aug 9, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Is the Quran Gods words?
> 
> I say no because God does not exist.



You may be right, or you may be wrong about God. But I am not wrong that he had nothing to do with the quran. Unless he is a mumbling, semi literate, monster.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Is the Quran Gods words?
> ...



Monster? What do you read then the bible or Torah? Or none?


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## Hollie (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



 Honestly you should expand your intellectual horizons beyond the ruthlessly plagiarized fundamentalist Christian apologetics of Adnan Oktar? Do you bother to investigate the accuracy of such slogans as "The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."?The Koran doesn't "say that".

According to three of the most widely cited English translations, The slogans translate as Uthman writing: 051.047

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space 
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof). 
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Note that none of the translations proposes the concept of an expanding universe. In fact, none of them references a "universe" at all, but rather "heavens" or "firmament", in rather glaring contradiction to your allegation


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## Dajjal (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...



The Bible is full of horrible tales, and it is full of flaws. I am not a Jew or a Christian so that does not bother me. But the Bible is rich in narrative, and tells stories with a beginning, middle and end.

But the quran is a disjointed, mumbling ,repetitive ramble, that only refers to bible stories and does not explain them. See my piece on sura 12, the story of Joseph, which is in the first few pages of this thread. There is no narrative, and sura 12 is inexplicable unless you first read Genesis. There is no more clear evidence that the quran is plagiarism from the bible than sura 12.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...



There you go you said it there the bible is stories, the Koran is command from God no wonder everybody is converting to Islam


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## Dajjal (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> There you go you said it there the bible is stories, the Koran is command from God no wonder EVERYBODY is converting to Islam



Er! not everybody. I for one have already sealed my fate. I would sooner take my chances of burning in hellfire for eternity, than convert to Islam.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 9, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > There you go you said it there the bible is stories, the Koran is command from God no wonder EVERYBODY is converting to Islam
> ...



That's fine yo haha


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## Dajjal (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> That's fine yo haha



You don't really want me to burn in eternal hellfire, do you?

If at some time after we have both died, and you are in Allahs heaven, being waited on by wide eyed youths, while sipping wine that does not get you drunk, will you look down on me burning in hell, and if I am weak enough to ask you for a glass of water, will you call out, "it is forbidden for unbelievers"?

See the quran, sura 7.44 and 7.50 which tells you to do exactly that.

IF GOD INSPIRED THIS TRASH WE ARE ALL IN TROUBLE.

Believers and unbelievers both are at the mercy of a deranged sadistic monster God.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Wrong Koran is divine. And of course you read it after 2001 to find anything you felt contradicted your thoughts and rejected it. So now you don't know wack



The Koran is mostly plagiarized. Jewish scholars were pressed into writing it, so lifted liberally from the Torah and other Jewish texts. 

I started looking at Islam in about 1993, after Muslim terrorists had attacked the WTC the first time. Since that time I've become very knowledgeable about the Koran, Hadiths and the life of the Warlord Muhammad (MHBIH).

A few facts, Islam is an idolator religion. All Muslims, Shiite and Sunni, bow to the Idol of Allah in the Kaaba, 5 times each day. This is nothing new, the idol predates Islam by a full millennium. The idol, the Phallic or Black stone, is the traditional home of the djin Hubal; often termed Al-Ilah (the god) who is the moon god of the Mesopotamian Parthenon. Muhammad adopted this idol and the djin of the idol then promoted him to supreme being. 

Hubal in Semitic Hebrew is called Baal, Bel, and Bol. Each year, hundreds of thousands of Muslims perform the Hajj and seek to kiss the idol of Allah ne Ba'al.


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 9, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Hey...............even the Muslims don't believe the Quaran is the actual Word of God, because it states quite plainly that most of what is in it were quotes from Mohammed.
> ...



How exactly DOES a "sperm becomes in a womb"?  Typing drunk again?

As far as the Universe expanding?  There are several different theories on that, and an expanding Universe is just one of them.


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## Dajjal (Aug 12, 2012)

Here are some of the Quranic verses inciting Muslims to fight unbelievers. Fight in the way of Allah, because fighting is prescribed for them. And die for Allah so they will be rewarded in heaven. But do not turn back in battle, or they will go to hell.

IS THIS A MESSAGE FROM GOD? Or is it, as I strongly suspect, a load of crap from a lying bandit.

2.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.

4.74 Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

9.29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that 
forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the  religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him.


48.16 Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: "Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, God will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty."


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## ecks_why (Aug 12, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Here are some of the Quranic verses inciting Muslims to fight unbelievers...



yes i agree the koran is a horrible book !! i poked thru this thread, much good info and some banned handles so now i know what to avoid  

you've already seen answering-islam & faithfreedom sites, how about skeptics ?
skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran

it has lists of categorized surahs, injustice, intolerance, cruelty good for doing basic comparisons like...

some round numbers for holy texts needed for comparing islam & xnity

koran 250 pages = 15%
sira 420 pages = 25%
hadith 1000 pages = 60%   (guessing why not 1000 ? 2000 ? which sira/hadith ?)
1670 pages total

old tst 900 pages = 75%
new tst 300 pages 25%
1200 pages total 

314 skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
539 skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html
700 skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

531 skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html
763 skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/inj/long.html
543 skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

adding up these lists get

bible - 1553 verses 1200 pages about 1.3 verses/page
koran - 1837 verses 250 pages about 7.3 verses/page

but there is no "koran only" movement for islam the mooselimbs also always consider the sirahs and hadiths as basic holy texts. of course there are lots of different s/h's but mainstream s/h easily adds another 1400 pages.

using the same occurance rate for the koran (probably reasonable because again mohamhead was a murdering warlord etc) at 7.3 verses/page and adding 1400 pages from s/h adds over 10,000 negative verses so the new numbers are

old tst + new tst bible = 1553 negative verses for 1200 pages
koran + siras + hadiths = 12,000+ negative verses for 1670 pages

so even a basic analysis of these holy texts shows islam to be quite a violent ideology and much more so than xnity


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## Liability (Aug 12, 2012)

The Qur'an is God's word only if God is a psychotic self-contradictory asshole.


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## psed007 (Aug 14, 2012)

Can not be. Mohammed never spoke to G'd only to an angel. You will find no passage where G'd is speaking directly with Mohammed.


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## Dajjal (Aug 14, 2012)

psed007
The quran is supposedly dictated to Muhammad, by the angel Gabriel, who gave it as a message from God. It often makes statements that start with WE, meaning God said this.

In actual fact the bible only refers to Gabriel as a messenger that announced the coming of John the baptist, and Jesus. The angel Gabriel gives no message in the bible from God, other than those two announcements.
But it is easy to see where Muhammad got the idea of claiming that Gabriel gave him messages from God. Muhammad also confuses the angel Gabriel with the holy spirit.


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## psed007 (Aug 18, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> psed007
> The quran is supposedly dictated to Muhammad, by the angel Gabriel, who gave it as a message from God. It often makes statements that start with WE, meaning God said this.
> 
> In actual fact the bible only refers to Gabriel as a messenger that announced the coming of John the baptist, and Jesus. The angel Gabriel gives no message in the bible from God, other than those two announcements.
> But it is easy to see where Muhammad got the idea of claiming that Gabriel gave him messages from God. Muhammad also confuses the angel Gabriel with the holy spirit.


Thx, 4 reply  LOL This is even more confusing than I thought  That means g'd said to gabirel what to tell mohammed ! Why g'd should do that ?!?! It is completely insane that approx. 1.4 Billion believers believe that ?!?! After the story of us in the OT it is a wonder and not how we could make it so far !  Same bullshit since the beginning


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 19, 2012)

psed007 said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > psed007
> ...



Hey.............at least Moses brought the tablets down from the mountain top.

Mohammed just gave us hearsay and his followers did the same once removed.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 22, 2012)

psed007 said:


> Thx, 4 reply  LOL This is even more confusing than I thought  That means g'd said to gabirel what to tell mohammed ! Why g'd should do that ?!?! It is completely insane that approx. 1.4 Billion believers believe that ?!?! After the story of us in the OT it is a wonder and not how we could make it so far !  Same bullshit since the beginning



While I am certainly not a believer in Islam, I dont exactly see what's insane about God giving a message to an angel to take to man as He has done just that throughout human history.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 22, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey.............at least Moses brought the tablets down from the mountain top.
> 
> Mohammed just gave us hearsay and his followers did the same once removed.



The problem of course being Arabic wasnt a written language then. Tablets would have been useless. The Quran is a recitation of what Mohammad was supposedly told.

Quite honestly, I would be open to consider Mohammad actually had experiences with God. Problem is after his death the "Rightly guided" Caliphis started writing down the revelations and compiled them into the Quran specifically because false revelations were supposedly going around. Its quite possible that if Mohammad was inspired, that the Quoran was corrupted in compiling because the Caliphs replaced the revelations with what they wanted.

Of course, it's all speculation. Which is specifically why the only way to know the things of God and what is God's word is to appeal to God Himself and find out from Him. Which is good to do anyway, since the scriptures are a tool for helping us hear the voice of the Lord for ourselves and to help us reenter His presence.


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 22, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Hey.............at least Moses brought the tablets down from the mountain top.
> ...



Really?



> Shortly after Muhammad's death the Quran was compiled into a single book by order of the first Caliph Abu Bakr and at the suggestion of his future successor Umar. Hafsa, Muhammad's widow and Caliph Umar's daughter, was entrusted with that Quranic text after the second Caliph Umar died.[11] When the third Caliph Uthman began noticing slight differences in pronunciation of the Qur'anic Arabic by those whose dialect was not that of the Quraish, he sought Hafsa's permission to use her text and commissioned a committee to produce a standard copy of the text of Qur'an to which added diacritical marks ensured correct pronunciation, and to be set as the standard dialect, the Quraish dialect, now known as Fus'ha (Modern Standard Arabic) (see Origin and development of the Qur'an). Five of these original Qur'ans (Mus'haf) were sent to the major Muslim cities of the era, with Uthman keeping one for his own use in Medina. Any variations to standardized text were invalidated and ordered to be destroyed, all other versions of the Qur'an copied by scribes subsequently were from this codex. This process of formalization is known as the "Uthmanic recension".[12] The present form of the Quran text is accepted by most scholars as the original version compiled by Abu Bakr.[12][13]



Quran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And............fwiw..................I think that the Arabic language and writing was around before Mohammed came around.  The only reason it was written after his death is because Mohammed couldn't write it because he was ILLITERATE.

Try again..............thanks for playing............


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 22, 2012)

Yes seriously. In fact, the passage you quoted from wikipedia supports _exactly_ what I just said. It was written and compiled by the "rightly guided" caliphs who destroyed any variations of the text. 

It was not written down or compiled till Mohammad was dead.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 23, 2012)

It was written down passage by passage then completed


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## Liability (Aug 23, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> It was written down passage by passage then completed



How the fuck else would it get written down, ya dimshit motherfucker?

And it's complete, all right.

Complete fucking stupid psychotic lunacy.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 23, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > It was written down passage by passage then completed
> ...



You define a lunatic fucking queer am I giving you a panick attack faggot


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## Liability (Aug 23, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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You have a detachable little Islamist cock just so you can fuck yourself up your own ass.  So, nothing you say or do induces panic in anyone -- ever.

Learn to use a spell check.

You keep this shit up and even TderpM will be laughing at you.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 23, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Is there such a thing as an Islamist penis? Damn you really must be a lunatic


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## Liability (Aug 23, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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I know you desire to know lots more about penis, since you have the worst case of penis envy -- ever -- in the history of the gay Islamist universe, but still:

try looking up some things all on your own.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 23, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Cool story bro. Next


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 23, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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I highly doubt Muslim men dont have penises... Of course, ive never looked so it could be. But i find it highly unlikely.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 23, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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How does that make a penis Islamist? Man you always get funnier


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## Liability (Aug 23, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Avatar4321 said:
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BecauseItBlows doesn't even know when the person it's addressing has changed.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 23, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Damn liability and high gravity mackin... Damn mackin his liability to suck high gravitys balls from across the room


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## Liability (Aug 23, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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It almost looks like BecauseItBlows is attempting to compose a "thought."  

It remains forever destined to fail, of course.

Plainly, it doesn't know how to do so.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 23, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Mackin...


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## Dajjal (Aug 24, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> It was not written down or compiled till Mohammad was dead.



Muhammads followers used to write down what he said on bark and leaves.
One day a goat ate some of it, so it probably ate the best bits.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > It was not written down or compiled till Mohammad was dead.
> ...



Everything is available? Why are you trying to sound like an Islamic scholar? Your a fucking 90 year old nazi fuck


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## Dajjal (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Another enemy, what a good thing you have no rep power, or I would be scared


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Aha get a life, 99 percent of your so called facts are lies and how is going on the Internet supposed to make you scared?


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## Dajjal (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
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I was joking about being scared, as for my facts, I believe everything I have said about the quran, except for the story about a Goat eating some of it. That might be a legend. Hah!


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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That wasn't about the Koran?..and I'm blessed to know a non Muslim is practicing Islam more than a average Muslim does, may god bless you maybe you will die a Muslim....


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## Dajjal (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> That wasn't about the Koran?..and I'm blessed to know a non Muslim is practicing Islam more than a average Muslim does, may god bless you maybe you will die a Muslim....



I am more likely to die at the hands of a muslim, if they find out who I am.
If I die a muslim it will be because I have first suffered brain death.

BUT DO NOT GIVE UP ON ME, AS I THINK THERE PROBABLY IS A GOD.

It is just that he gave no message to Muhammad, so Islam is a pack of lies.

One reason I think this is because I could never worship a God who would burn people in everlasting hellfire, not even if they were my worst enemy. but the quran says he will.
I believe this is because Muhammad stole the idea of hellfire from the bible, and used it to scare silly Arabs into fighting for him.

Hey, in another life we could probably be friends.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > That wasn't about the Koran?..and I'm blessed to know a non Muslim is practicing Islam more than a average Muslim does, may god bless you maybe you will die a Muslim....
> ...



I was raised religious then i completely backed off from religion, i didn't think the texts made sense as i read chapter by chapter, i though all three abrahamic religions were nonsense, so i decided to rely on nature and life, until i became very depressed during school, people were not my type, everything felt wierd, and yet i still didn't go back to praying, i started researching on all three religions, then i went to the hadith, i wanted to see how Muhammad explained death, and where the souls go, i read lots and lots of hadith, authentic one's btw, so i said to myself i will go back to praying, i am the only one of my family, i believe the Koran makes sense as a whole, you might not, and that's fine. 

My life stayed that way and i was even more depressed then i cried during prayer and asked God to help me, i didn't get no answer, until i reach a peak, one night i was just awaken by a message sort of thing, i woke up suddenly at around 3:00am, and this speech reached my heart, its hard to explain, but it translated in my heart " i'm watching, i have been watching". I was pretty scared and surprised i don't know what it was but i believe it was God, again you might not believe this but its true.

Now i believe God isn't like us, he doesn't think like humans, i am very curious about him, but i will just go with what Muhammad said about him, he told us not to think about God too much(like his characteristics) he said we will find out at death, and the name The Most Generous and the Most Kind caught me, i know God is the most loving to people who apporach him, i fear him and i cry for him. 

I believe that Koran is God's words, back then people weren't moderate like us today, they were strong in faith, so i believe God's orders and i believe he is there always observing, his eye never sleeps. Again, you might not agree but maybe we will see each other some time, i guess my explanation is The God is The God, i fear him enough that he is the Lord, so i believe in what he recommends and orders, you might not, but thats cool.


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## Dajjal (Aug 24, 2012)

Becauseiknow, Well thats all very interesting.

I have come a different route, and I was originally a christian, but when I found out that other christians in the bible class I was attending believed in hellfire I walked out of the class,at aged 16 years. I now have another 50 years experience, and in that time I have been involved in various cults and religions. I mainly went to spiritualist churches, and there I had many uplifting expereinces.

Basically I have to say you are right, we will not agree that the quran is the word of God because I don't think it is. But I still think there is a God and it does not really matter how we approach him as he does not expect us to understand him. Nor are we capable of it.

God is in everything everywhere, and all religions have some truth in them if they help us find him in our hearts.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Becauseiknow, Well thats all very interesting.
> 
> I have come a different route, and I was originally a christian, but when I found out that other christians in the bible class I was attending believed in hellfire I walked out of the class,at aged 16 years. I now have another 50 years experience, and in that time I have been involved in various cults and religions. I mainly went to spiritualist churches, and there I had many uplifting expereinces.
> 
> ...



Well i've been at the Koran for a while now, so i do believe it, but you have a interesting story as for hellfire, i believe he left some things out he won't tell us, he mostly infers in texts that believers will be forgived, and disbelievers will suffer. Now do i believe it that? Yes because like i said he is the God and he must be serious about his message and he is nothing like us. Most people leave religion like you when they hell fire, but some tackle for Paradaise, so it might sound unbelievable to you, but i want to follow his path and meet him one day


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Becauseiknow, Well thats all very interesting.
> ...



I'm confused.  You reject the Bible because of hell fire, and yet you embrace a religion that clearly states that there will be no peace until you have murdered everyone on earth that doesn't agree with Mohammad?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

The Irish Ram said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
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I don't reject the bible, I believe in hell and all 3 abrahamic religions. I reject Jesus's divinity and trinity. As for your last comment, no comment.


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## Dajjal (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Well i've been at the Koran for a while now, so i do believe it, but you have a interesting story as for hellfire, i believe he left some things out he won't tell us, he mostly infers in texts that believers will be forgived, and disbelievers will suffer. Now do i believe it that? Yes because like i said he is the God and he must be serious about his message and he is nothing like us. Most people leave religion like you when they hell fire, but some tackle for Paradaise, so it might sound unbelievable to you, but i want to follow his path and meet him one day



So, do you read the Quran in Arabic? I wondered because you call it the Koran and the only English translation I know that uses that name is the penguin edition by Darwood.

You might like to know what I have concluded from my search for truth over the years.

I believe we probably reincarnate, thousands of times, on many different planets.
We carry karma over with us from one life to the next, until we finally achieve enlightenment, or perfection, or God consciousness.
After that we continue on as immortal beings in a higher dimension that we can call the spirit world.  For the unenlightened, between incarnations we spend time in the spirit world, but eventually we realize our imperfections, and have to reincarnate.

Many spirit teachers have confirmed these things to me over the years.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Well i've been at the Koran for a while now, so i do believe it, but you have a interesting story as for hellfire, i believe he left some things out he won't tell us, he mostly infers in texts that believers will be forgived, and disbelievers will suffer. Now do i believe it that? Yes because like i said he is the God and he must be serious about his message and he is nothing like us. Most people leave religion like you when they hell fire, but some tackle for Paradaise, so it might sound unbelievable to you, but i want to follow his path and meet him one day
> ...



Yes I read it in Arabic, and it translates Koran actually. Hmm, I have heard that a few times here and there, while it sounds interesting I think this is the only life and hope this is all we have to do. Now after we are God willing admitted to Paadaise he might have another Plan ready, I don't want to speculate as I honestly believe only God knows those things. But I hope this is all


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## Dajjal (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> I don't reject the bible, I believe in hell and all 3 abrahamic religions. I reject Jesus's divinity and trinity. As for your last comment, no comment.



I am afraid that if you accept the Quran as truth you automatically discount much of the bible as false. I assume you also think Jesus was not crucified, but all four books of the apostles give lengthy accounts of the Crucifixion.

Therefore either the Quran or the Bible are filled with falsehoods. Only one can be true as they are totally opposed.

(atheists will now rush in and say both books are fiction)


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > I don't reject the bible, I believe in hell and all 3 abrahamic religions. I reject Jesus's divinity and trinity. As for your last comment, no comment.
> ...



I know people will argue that he was crucified I believe it was a different similar looking person, the bible doesn't make sense to me when you add up the events, I don't understand how God came to earth and only managed to convert 13 people at his time, it's a long discussion, but I believe Islams account about Jesus more than the bible, I believe Jesus is a mysterious guy and a prophet, he was born a miracle to my belief.

The reason he wasn't preaching like Muhammad and Moses, was because his time was really short as a prophet, he descended early in his life I believe at 32 years, so he took the path of talking people into belief of God, he didn't have rules like Moses Law or sharia because his time was short, that's why I believe Christians lean to him more because he was sweet and calm and preached through words and ended there. His story is sad and his life, that's what I believe some may disagree, but he still is a prophet just like all other prophets on my watch


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

I will be back in a few hours for those interested in this discussion, especially dajjal, now I'm going out with some friends for sports...peace


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> The Irish Ram said:
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If you reject Jesus as God, then why bother with the Bible?  The point of the Bible, is to spread the Good News that Christ lives.
And why no comment?  Do you think I have exaggerated the message of the Quran?


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> The Irish Ram said:
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Actually, there is no hell in the Judaic theology.


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
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Sry, but that is so off the mark.  What would make you believe that some one other than Jesus was on that cross?  If Biblical accounts don't suffice, look to the historians. 
13 people?  No. Thousands and thousands of people followed him, literally. Once there were so many that they had to put him in a boat because He had been pushed to the shoreline. Remember the child that had bread and fish and it fed multitudes?  4,000 people had been following Him for 3 days.  And that isn't counting the women and children.  Millions of Christians were hung on crosses, ravaged by lions, gored by bulls, in an effort to destroy His followers. 

Jesus preached in His father's house when He was just a child.  He indeed had the "rules" that Moses had and celebrated the Jewish traditions.  Passover was his last before He was crucified.  First Fruits festival when He left the earth and delivered the saints that were resurrected with Him.  Those 10,000 that came back to earth with Christ were His gift to His Father. His first fruits. 

His story is glorious.  HE LIVES.  We cling to Him because He sacrificed His life so we may live.  We love Him because He loved us first.

Accept Christ as propitiation for your sins.  God had many prophets. None removed sin.  Christ is the Savior.  He paid the price for our sins so that we could stand sin free, and boldly, in front of the Father.
Don't leave earth without Him.


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## Liability (Aug 24, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
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When Muslims die, God has a good chuckle.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

The Irish Ram said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Disagree, many prophets did that and had nations behind them, as for Jesus and the bible that was my opinion


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 24, 2012)

It's ok to disagree.  Pure blood is necessary for the cleansing of sin.  Jesus  is the only one suited for the position.

Do you still hold to those opinions, now that they have been clarified, such as Him teaching in the temple when he was a boy?  And that He had more followers than the 12 He chose to continue His work when He departed? That He practiced Jewish tradition and was referred  to as Rabbi?  I'm afraid some of your opinion have been made with too little information.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 24, 2012)

The Irish Ram said:


> It's ok to disagree.  Pure blood is necessary for the cleansing of sin.  Jesus  is the only one suited for the position.
> 
> Do you still hold to those opinions, now that they have been clarified, such as Him teaching in the temple when he was a boy?  And that He had more followers than the 12 He chose to continue His work when He departed? That He practiced Jewish tradition and was referred  to as Rabbi?  I'm afraid some of your opinion have been made with too little information.



Why do you consider him jewish? He had a miracle birth so his instructions were from God not the Jews, I am sure the Jews didn't consider him a rabbi, especially that he taught hellfire.....

And you are preaching I was stating my opinion and no my opinion is Jesus was a prohet nothing more, why would a human be anything more.... God has all the answers


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## HUGGY (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > It's ok to disagree.  Pure blood is necessary for the cleansing of sin.  Jesus  is the only one suited for the position.
> ...



Blah...Blah...Blah...  If you wakamos had any balls you would stop wasting our time and go get up close and personal with your Jeebus and GAAAWWWD.  Or...would that take too much faith?  Ya..that's what I thought.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
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> > The Irish Ram said:
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I do pray 5 times a day plus extra prayer what's your point?


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## HUGGY (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> HUGGY said:
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Ha...ha..  That's a LOT of blah...blah...blah....  Don't you have a suicide bomb mission to do or something?  NO?  What I meant was REAL up close and personal..something that would require ABSOLUTE faith...not that pussy style faith you sport Sport.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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And what's your idea of faith idiot? Yoga? Fag


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## HUGGY (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> HUGGY said:
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My ability to draw. aim and shoot faster and more accurately than you.


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > It's ok to disagree.  Pure blood is necessary for the cleansing of sin.  Jesus  is the only one suited for the position.
> ...



God becoming man *was* the answer.  Do you celebrate passover?  If He is just a man, what was so miraculous about His birth?  He taught in a Jewish temple.
How many Gentiles do that?  Why do you keep insisting that he wasn't Jewish?  What religion was His mother?


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 25, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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lol. In that case I won't force you to read our posts anymore.


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## HUGGY (Aug 25, 2012)

The Irish Ram said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Interesting question.  I'm no theologist...   But weren't women not allowed in any temples in the time of jeebus?


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 25, 2012)

They were only allowed is specific parts of the temple, and not allowed to take part in ceremonies, and had to keep their basements clean.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

HUGGY said:


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Sure you can...haha


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## Liability (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseItBlows is such an obvious troll, and a massive fail, even its avie sucks camel dick.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseItBlows is such an obvious troll, and a massive fail, even its avie sucks camel dick.



Liability is a fat loser. He fails at life


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## Liability (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseItBlows is such an obvious troll, and a massive fail, even its avie sucks camel dick.
> ...



^ A pathetic effort at a rejoinder.

The fuckwit, BecauseItBlows, can't even do THAT.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Haha you're a joke man, he feel butthurt and want to come troll me, get a life and a job homo


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

Liability is unemployed and has psychotic problems


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > It's ok to disagree.  Pure blood is necessary for the cleansing of sin.  Jesus  is the only one suited for the position.
> ...



Why do I consider Yeshua Jewish?  Simple..............because He was.

The only reason that He was in the Temple just before they crucified Him was because He came there to celebrate Passover (like any good Jewish man).

And by the way...............the Jews had a connection to God LOOOOONG before Christians did.  Why?  Simple, because of what their ancestor Abraham did, and because of that God said that He would bless the line of Abraham forever.

Wanna try again, Because You Blow?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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I'll pass, he was very disappointed with some Jews, and Abraham wasn't Jewish, while I agrees he attended Passover, etc, due to him living in a Jewish city at the time. And no God didn't choose to have connections with certain people before anyone else, he was a friend to Abraham so Abraham was not Jewish hence before the Jews he guided people's


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Actually, the Jews came from the line of Abraham.

And no..............Yeshua didn't go to Passover simply because He lived in a Jewish city, that's almost as stupid as saying that people have to celebrate Christmas and Easter just because they live in a Christian city.

Try again Because You Blow.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

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I know Jews came from the line of abraham as Arabs did, but still Abraham wasn't Jewish or Muslim, Abraham was guided by God before the Jews, he was a monotheist


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Actually, Abraham was blessed because he was the first to see and acknowledge the One True God.  No, Abraham himself wasn't Jewish, but the Hebrew people all became Jewish when Moshe (Moses) came down from the mountain with the tablets and they created the Ark of the Covenant (meaning the Covenant God had made with Abraham and all his descendents).

You really don't know much other than your own dogma, do you Because You Blow?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


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What are you trying to say? You keep claiming Abraham was jewish or eventually became jewish, I don't care that his line became partly Jews and arabs, he wasn't Jewish himself quit trying


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


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Who's this one true God? Jesus? Ahha Abraham acknowledged God was One and had no son, he believed God is not a human as well


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Actually, there are several names for God, matter of fact, the first one used in the Bible is El Ohim (meaning God of Many Powers), as well as others such as Adonai, YHVH, etc.

And.............in case you didn't know...............Yeshua came a LONG time after Abraham.  You do realize that history has a way of growing, don't you?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


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Abraham acknowledged God is one with no partners you realize that right? And I Know there are plenty of names for God


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## Liability (Aug 25, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability is unemployed and has psychotic problems



BecauseItBlows goes out of its way to prove me right -- again.

Ho hum.

Speaking of hummers, your goat is getting impatient.

Go suck it off, bitch.  The camels have had their turn.

By the way, did you know that Mohammed (PB&J) was a fucking pedophile?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 25, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Your as credible as fingernail I clipp to the garbage to me right now don't bother


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> The Qur'an is God's word only if God is a psychotic self-contradictory asshole.



Or as I like to say, Allah is a semi literate, mumbling, monster.


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## HUGGY (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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The clipped fingernail is worth more than what it was previously attached to.


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability is unemployed and has psychotic problems



Additional proof ^ of how totally mindless and valueless BecauseItBlows always is.


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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More Midol to BecauseItBlows!  STAT!


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


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Loser can't go up to a discussion what a fail, he still is going on, get real man? Become a man or something? Get deceny? You seriously should think about getting a life


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

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BecauseItBlows advocates for *deceny*.  

But he adamantly opposes coherency.


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIknow, Lets forget about all the insults, and get back to the serious question of whether God inspired Muhammad. The following hadith shows what Muhammad was capable of, and that he was cruel, and merciless. Can you imagine Jesus commanding such things?

Hadith Bukhari 

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794: 

Narrated Anas: 

Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIknow, Lets forget about all the insults, and get back to the serious question of whether God inspired Muhammad. The following hadith shows what Muhammad was capable of, and that he was cruel, and merciless. Can you imagine Jesus commanding such things?
> 
> Hadith Bukhari
> 
> ...



well first you need to get real and post a real hadith and reference too, and i like i said i dont see you a point of debating about someone you already hate so im not wasting my time, i can give my opinion like we did that last time


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> well first you need to get real and post a real hadith and reference too, and i like i said i dont see you a point of debating about someone you already hate so im not wasting my time, i can give my opinion like we did that last time



You are disputing the hadith Bukhari? Because they are well regarded by many Islamic scholars.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Hadith Bukhari
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 me too, it was about the grouop of people who murdered 72 muslims at the well but this guys wont take my words im trying to tell him its better just to look yourself, he is looking to move to a religion i guess


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> me too, it was about the grouop of people who murdered 72 muslims at the well but this guys wont take my words im trying to tell him its better just to look yourself, he is looking to move to a religion i guess



The point is that Muhammad ordered the following terrible things to be done to prisoners.

"the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die."

But I guess that kind of thing is ok with you muslims huh?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > me too, it was about the grouop of people who murdered 72 muslims at the well but this guys wont take my words im trying to tell him its better just to look yourself, he is looking to move to a religion i guess
> ...



i don't get are you trying to prove me wrong or what? You have a bias against Muhammad i don't. Your hadith is Bukhari it doesn't say that, prisoners were just taken as prisoners and some converted and became islamic figures later on. The Quraysh when they took muslim prisoners they killed them immedialty, but you're just ignoring the truth. 

Murderers can go die yeah you realize what they did right? But nope you just want to bash Muhammad, i am staying muslim for my whole life buddy, a very strong one, these joke threads against Muhammad are low life, i hate when people act low like this, you act as if punishment of murder was any different back than.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 26, 2012)

Dajjal you can post Hadiths with your personal comments all day long saying Muhammad did this or Muhammad do that.

But it really doesn't make any difference what you say.

Muhammad is our Prophet and a perfect example for all mankind to follow.

Whether you agree or disagree with his actions or rulings makes no difference to us at all.


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Muhammad is our Prophet and a perfect example for all mankind to follow



So we can expect Muslims to burn our eyes out with heated peices of metal and cut off our arms and legs, till we bleed to death and that is your idea of how to behave?

You follow a ranting delusional, psychophathic, murdering liar.

Something tells me there is a war coming, and it will make the crusades look like a holiday.


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Dajjal you can post Hadiths with your personal comments all day long saying Muhammad did this or Muhammad do that.
> 
> But it really doesn't make any difference what you say.
> 
> ...



He is a perfect example of psychotic, murderous, hateful, sociopathic, bigoted intentions and pedophilia.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Muhammad is our Prophet and a perfect example for all mankind to follow
> ...



For murderers they deserve more, you are an ordinary person you don't matter to anyone in Arabia even if you went to Muhammad yourself and asked and you kept being ignorant of everything he would just tell you to leave and quit trolling


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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I see you got a bigger gun in your avatar, well you will never win a war against the west.
We have a lot more firepower than you, and we have atomic bombs.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Thats not me, haha you are souding like a kiddo now, weopons don't mean anything to palestinians we will always have the men ready to fight and die, our faith is stronger than your weopons, you never seen how tough Mujahideen of gaza are, they are ready to give their life overnight, so don't worry about our fighters. And they are getting better weopons as well he he, and win the time comes to conquer Jerusalem again it will happen but its not close at all yet


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## Sunni Man (Aug 26, 2012)

1.5 billion muslims, which is about 25% of the worlds population, accept that Muhammad's life is an example for all mankind to follow.

And to base their lives on trying to emulate his actions, words, and deeds.


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> 1.5 billion muslims, which is about 25% of the worlds population, accept that Muhammad's life is an example for all mankind to follow.
> 
> And to base their lives on trying to emulate his actions, words, and deeds.



25% of the Earth's population choose to follow the teachings of a bigoted psychopathic murderous pedophile?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > 1.5 billion muslims, which is about 25% of the worlds population, accept that Muhammad's life is an example for all mankind to follow.
> ...



naa they chose the right path, its not a coincidence


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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Obviously not if they choose to follow the words of the Prophet Mohammed (pb&J) the pedophile bigot piece of shit.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Bigot? he was only one guy out of the whole Arabia yet managed to survive and people followed him. Because God protected him than it was time him for him to meet God kust like Abraham met God


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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What you don't understand about Islam and the Prophet Pedophile Mohammed (pb&J) would fill a library the size of the universe.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Huh? i am glad we will have a serious discussion about everything Muhammad did when i get back in an hour, thanks anyway


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

Here are some of Muhammads rotten words about fighting unbelievers. As can be seen he asks muslims to fight and die for him. And do not forget sura 8 where he tells you to give him one fifth of the spoils of war. Do not doubt it, if you make unholy war on the west you will die. But you will not get any reward in heaven because Muhammad was not speaking for God, he was a lying bandit.



2.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.

4.74 Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

9.29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that 
forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the  religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him.


48.16 Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: "Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, God will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty."


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Here are some of Muhammads rotten words about fighting unbelievers. As can be seen he asks muslims to fight and die for him. And do not forget sura 8 where he tells you to give him one fifth of the spoils of war. Do not doubt it, if you make unholy war on the west you will die. But you will not get any reward in heaven because Muhammad was not speaking for God, he was a lying bandit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All referring to the Quraysh don't play idiot now...


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
> 
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You are not able to engage in a serious conversation about the lunatic ravings of a psychopathic sick evil pedophile piece of shit.

You actually respect his words and behavior.  This makes you a sick worthless fuck, too.


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 26, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> 1.5 billion muslims, which is about 25% of the worlds population, accept that Muhammad's life is an example for all mankind to follow.
> 
> And to base their lives on trying to emulate his actions, words, and deeds.



But he thought lying was honorable.  He lied and deceived and then slaughtered a tribe of people who took him at his word.  
Wasn't he suppose to make an appearance a few years back, and ended up AWOL?


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## Dajjal (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> All referring to the Quraysh don't play idiot now...



You are referring to sura 106?

Or some other oblique reference to muslims fighting  only in self defense?


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## Sunni Man (Aug 26, 2012)

The Irish Ram said:


> Wasn't he suppose to make an appearance a few years back, and ended up AWOL?


You must have us confused with Christians who claim Jesus is coming back on a certain date and never shows up.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
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than leave the the thread, this is a forum for a discussion, not for you to dictate anything


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

The Irish Ram said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > 1.5 billion muslims, which is about 25% of the worlds population, accept that Muhammad's life is an example for all mankind to follow.
> ...



Lol make an appearance? how can you not know Muhammad isnt coming back? its one of the main topics taught about Islam, man you are foolish i was taking you seriously for a second


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Go suck off another camel, you fucking scumbag motherfucker.

This board is for free discussion, not for any asshole cocksucker like you to dictate.

You remain a worthless fuck.

You follow the words of the most evil son of bitch to ever lie about the word of God.

Mohammed fucked little girls.   In any civilized society, rather than being followed or listened to, he'd have been institutionalized.

Islam is predicated on the lies of a sick fucking madman.  And jism guzzlers like you willingly follow his mindless bullshit.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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 sir yes sir, to your honor sir yes sir


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


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 wait sir i have something to say to you captain. Yes soldier whats up?  kaboom bitch and like that liability is gone


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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No need to prove again that you bring NOTHING to the table, bitch. ^ you remain a perfectly worthless twat, you motherfucking loser.  Mohammed laughed at shitheads like you when he fucked little girls.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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its the other way man everyone viewing the thread is laughing at you, we all can see you have issues


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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Despite your obvious lack of familiarity with English, you illiterate dopey pussy, you did manage to convey one thought.  But, as expected, you got it backwards.

You DO hear laughter.  However, 

it is entirely directed AT you.



Now, go suck off a camel.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > All referring to the Quraysh don't play idiot now...
> ...



well for one you have to understand that Muhammad had a short time, God told him to turn the region around and raise the people's hands to the sky, you told me yesterday you might believe in a God but you don't think he expects anything from us, did i understood that right? please correct me if i was wrong. 

So may i ask why do you believe God made this universe and what does he expect, if at all anything?


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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Hey..................Because You Blow Goats..............got news for ya pilgrim, we're laughing at YOU.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


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I think people are more disturbed with your goat obsession...


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Whatever divine purpose the Almighty may have had for the creation of the universe is NOT likely to have been revealed to the psychotic bigoted piece of shit madman pedophile, Mohammed, using the Angel Gabriel as His messenger.


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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I think they are more repulsed by the goat jizz in your mouth and dribbling down your ugly face, ya semen guzzling motherfucker.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


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Wait so are you an agnostic or athiest? Tell us want God expects from humans


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


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Wtf.........


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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That is the general reaction to your posts when you randomly cobble words together.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Wtf......?you have creepy fantasies.....wtf.....


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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No.  But you *do* randomly cobble words together.

And you *are* a flaming asshole dishonest nitwit mothefucker.

And Mohammed *was* a pedophile piece of shit.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
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Muhamamd was exactly like Moses, so you're either agnostic or atheist or maybe you believe in the flying spaghetti monster haha!


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## Liability (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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False.  

Moses led the Jews.  Mohammed just wanted to kill them

Moses didn't fuck children.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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King Solomon had 700 wives what's your point and You wanna talk about killing here let me quote the bible:

Deuteronomy 20:17 You must utterly destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you.


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## HUGGY (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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> > BecauseIKnow said:
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Who cares?  What does Santa Claus want? ..The tooth fairy? Mickey Fuckin Mouse? Man up you twat.  Speaking for myself..there is no god ... no heaven...no virgins..  Martyrdom is stupid...  You don't need some damn book to be good.  If you think you do you are weak.  You supposedly have a brain..use it.  Nobody talked to god.  If there was a god it wouldn't have been so obtuse.  Face it Sparky...you got scammed.  You came from nothing and entered the world all alone.  You will leave with nothing.  You will die just as alone as when you arrived and return to nothing. You can choose to believe whatever you want...it's your time to waste or contribute.  Try to remember that what you believe is only what YOU believe.  You are no more special than anyone.  Everyone has their own interpretation on things... stop trying to sell yours.  It's really none of your business what someone else believes.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
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> > Liability said:
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You can have your beliefs man no problem, I just asked him that because he s claiming he is a Jew or Christian yet tries to claim the God in the Koran is different than the God of the bible when they sound exactly the same to me. I am just pointing his hypocrisy man you should be all for that


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Btw this thread is titled "is the Quran Gods words?", it's a discussion of abrahamic religions so I don't get what you mean by "stop trying to sell yours"


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## HUGGY (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Btw this thread is titled "is the Quran Gods words?", it's a discussion of abrahamic religions so I don't get what you mean by "stop trying to sell yours"



I'm not selling anything.  I am responding to the OP.  You may not like the input but it is not off topic.  There is no god therefore there are no god's words Muslim Christian Jew or otherwise.  Your faith is not proof therefore not truth.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Btw this thread is titled "is the Quran Gods words?", it's a discussion of abrahamic religions so I don't get what you mean by "stop trying to sell yours"
> ...



Are you one of those proofie guys? What kind of proof are looking for? Btw that's your belief, I and many others believe in God. I can offer proof except showing you God I cannot do


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## chesswarsnow (Aug 26, 2012)

Sorry bout that,


1. islam is evil, pure evil, will kill your soul, and your families souls.
2. I hope that I have made this clear.
3. Stay away from or get out of islam.
4. That is all.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## HUGGY (Aug 26, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> HUGGY said:
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I'm happy just being here.  I have no desire to try and justify it.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 26, 2012)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 1. islam is evil, pure evil, will kill your soul, and your families souls.
> ...



Kill your soul? I know 60 Americans who converted to Islam just this Ramadan in a mosque, most of them said Christians aren't true to their values and they wanted to know the rest, Islam cleared many of their questions. 

Don't get me wrong I also know many devout, and I mean very devout Christians that are some of the kindest if not the kindest people I met. They don't speak with your rhetoric that's doesn't attract people. 

And that's a funny post really I am sure you can convince people with that informative post


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## Liability (Aug 27, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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I am not an adherent of the Old Testament, you mindless fuckwit.

I don't give a shit about the words in the OT.  

If you got arrested for pedophilia, would your defense be "well, other people have done it, too?"

The topic is NOT how does Moses (or Solomon or anybody else) stack up against the Muslim "prophet?"  The topic remains, entirely, how fucked up the diseased scumbag pedophile piece of shit Mohammed was.


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## Liability (Aug 27, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Liability said:
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Your question is irrelevant.

My religious beliefs -- such as they are -- have no connection to the discussion.

Whether ANYBODY can tell us what a supernatural CREATOR may "want" is doubtful.

But it is a certainty that no Almighty Divine Creator of the entire universe would deliver the completely insane, psychotic message -- by angelic delivery no less -- to some old hideous fuckwit bigot piece of shit nomadic pedophile scumbag in the middle east.  God may work in mysterious ways, but He is certainly not silly.

What kind of moron could believe that God would send His word to Mohammed the Pedophile, that vile murderous shit stain, and do so in a way that is not only self-contradictory, but unverifiable?  

Grow the fuck up.  The Qur'an is a bad fairy tale.


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## chesswarsnow (Aug 27, 2012)

Sorry bout that,




BecauseIKnow said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...





1. Just the facts and my short answer.
2. 60 dead eh?
3. Thats a tough one.
4. It is true a sucker IS born every minute.
5. Get it?


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## Dajjal (Aug 27, 2012)

Here is a verse in which Muhammad tries to justify the fact that he cannot do miracles.Then claims his proof is that he quotes the former scriptures, but as I have shown, Muhammad had the torah read out to him. So all the references he makes to bible stories are copied from it. 

20.133 And they say: if only he would bring us a miracle from his Lord!
Has there not come unto them the proof of what is in the former Scriptures.

There are also many verses where people ask Muhammad to bring his angel to give them proof, but he finds excuses every time


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## Sunni Man (Aug 27, 2012)

The Quran is Muhammad's miracle.

We muslims need no other proof.


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## Dajjal (Aug 27, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> The Quran is Muhammad's miracle.
> 
> We muslims need no other proof.



And that is the problem we are having. The quran is no miracle. It is a poorly constructed, poorly narrated, plagiarism from earlier sources, such as the bible and Arab mythology, and Greek writings.

If you read the pieces of writings I posted early in this thread, you can see my reasoning as plain as daylight.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 27, 2012)

Sorry, but we don't go by your alleged reasoning or self assumed logic when it comes to the Quran.

We are totally satisfied with it's authenticity beyond any doubt.


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## Dajjal (Aug 27, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Sorry, but we don't go by your alleged reasoning or self assumed logic when it comes to the Quran.
> 
> We are totally satisfied with it's authenticity beyond any doubt.



So you are happy that the quran says the sun orbits the earth? But what is more it says the sun orbits the flat earth in a semicircle, and is reset at every dawn. As proved by a hadith that confirms the quranic verse that states the sun goes to its resting place.

I have posted all that early in this thread with all references. Here are the verses, and the rest of my text can be found on page 1 of this thread.


Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.

sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 27, 2012)

The Quran is not a book of science; and yes we are happy with every aspect of it's teachings.


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## Dajjal (Aug 27, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> The Quran is not a book of science; and yes we are happy with every aspect of it's teachings.



So you are happy with the following quranic references to an Arab myth?

 I have found many bible myths repeated in the quran, and these in themselves are unbelievable, but there are Arab myths too.
According to Arab mythology a man that preceded Muhammad called Salih, said he was a prophet too, and the people did not believe him . So he split a rock and produce a she camel. Then the people of Thamud hamstrung the camel, so Allah destroyed them. The details of this story are absent from the quran but it is mentioned. Like most of the bible references in the quran there are no details or narratives given.
Here is the Pickthall translation of the quranic references to Thamud, the she camel.

007:073  And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.

011:064   O my people! This is the camel of Allah, a token unto you, so suffer her to feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with harm lest a near torment seize you.

026:155  He said: (Behold) this she-camel. She hath the right to drink (at the well), and ye have the right to drink, (each) on an appointed day.


091:013 And the messenger of Allah said: It is the she-camel of Allah, so let her drink!


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## chesswarsnow (Aug 27, 2012)

Sorry bout that,


1. Its really kinda hard to argue with the dead.
2. Like trying to reason with a terrorist homicide bomber, what does one have to live for, already being dead inside?
3. Those with a family are all dead, but just going through the motions of actually caring for each other, there is no caring in the dead.
4. Thats why they are able to murder their wives, daughters, and sons, over stupid honor bullshit, dead don't care, seriously.
5. They just don't dave folks.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


Regards,


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## Sunni Man (Aug 27, 2012)

It's still no problem with me or any other muslim.

Why does it bother you soo much?


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## Liability (Aug 27, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> It's still no problem with me or any other muslim.
> 
> Why does it bother you soo much?



In literature, it's called "the willing suspension of disbelief."

To accept the Qur'an, one MUST suspend the disbelief of the ridiculous things it says.

Put another way, it doesn't bother a flaming moron that his views are idiotic and this fully explains why the inherent idiocy of the Qur'an makes no difference to chuckle head Muslims.


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## Dajjal (Aug 27, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> It's still no problem with me or any other muslim.
> 
> Why does it bother you soo much?



I assume your post is a follow on to my last post.

It bothers me that 1.5 billion people are so delusional about their false God that they are likely to try to take over airplanes and crash them into buildings.

See the following example of madness and destruction from Allah in the quran.


7.4 How many towns have We destroyed (for their sins)? Our punishment took 
them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 27, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > It's still no problem with me or any other muslim.
> ...


The Bible basically tells of the same type of destruction in the O.T and Christians / Jews don't care.

Maybe you should target them.


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## HUGGY (Aug 27, 2012)

Liability said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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*Whether ANYBODY can tell us what a supernatural CREATOR may "want" is doubtful.*


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 27, 2012)

HUGGY said:


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And yet God reveals Himself and His commands/counsels to the humble and faithful all the time.


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 27, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Do you know the reason that Solomon had so many wives?  It's not because he was interested in having lots of sex, it's because when you made a treaty with another tribe, they would have you marry one of their own, and that bride would be a living reminder of the treaty you'd made with them.

As far as utterly destroying all those people?  Again...........wanna know why?  They were idol worshippers.

And..............fwiw.............Mohammed did the same thing to other tribes around him as well, because those who were defeated in battle were told to convert or be killed, because he didn't like idol worshippers either.

Try again Because You Blow Goats.


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## HUGGY (Aug 27, 2012)

This thread isn't shit without "BecauseHeWasBanned".

Just sayin....


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## ima (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Just curious, is there any actual proof that moses even existed?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


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What logic did you use there? You said Moses killed and destroyed all those people but they were idolaters so it's justified? So how would that make you disappointed at Muhaamamad? Oh you're right wing you don't understand religion


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## Dajjal (Aug 30, 2012)

ima said:


> Just curious, is there any actual proof that moses even existed?



As far as I recall, all efforts to find evidence in Egyptian hieroglyphs and manuscripts have not found any reference to Moses, or his miracles. I think all we have is the Bible.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > Just curious, is there any actual proof that moses even existed?
> ...



He is mentioned a bit in the history Of Hectaues of Abdera during 4th century bc


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## Dajjal (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow, So pleased to see you are still with us,  thought you were banned.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow, So pleased to see you are still with us,  thought you were banned.



Way to be sarcastic


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## Dajjal (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
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The 4th century would be a long time after Moses, wouldn't it?



Hecataeus of Abdera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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That's a time after yeah


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Right wing?  Might wanna check again with some of the other members on here Because You Blow Goats.  Most of the people on here consider me some evil lefty liberal.

What makes me disappointed in Mohammed?  Yeah..........he may have been following God's words to get rid of the idolators,  but the way his followers fucked up the religion after the illiterate Mohammed died is what makes me question their religion.

It says in Genesis that God brought order out of chaos.  And, there is a chronological order to the Bible.

What makes you think that God would approve of a mixed up book with no rhyme or reason, nor order?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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So you believe Muhammad was a prophet and the people ruined Islams image? You don't make any sense at all the Koran is a completion of everything the full book with laws, etc. Muhammad, according to Islam came for the whole universe not just for the Arabs. I don't understand you? You think the bible came in one piece from the sky? No it was verses everyday being presented by God then compiled


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Wrong..................



> The Quran (English pronunciation: /k&#596;r&#712;&#593;&#720;n/[n 1] kor-AHN; Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1585;&#1570;&#1606;* al-qur&#702;&#257;n, IPA: [qur&#712;&#660;a&#720;n],[n 2] literally meaning "the recitation"), also transliterated Qur'an, Koran, Al-Coran, Coran, Kuran, and Al-Qur'an, is the central religious text of Islam, which Muslims consider the verbatim word of God (Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;*, Allah).[1] It is regarded widely as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language.[2][3][4][5][6]
> 
> The Quran is composed of verses (Ayat) that make up 114 chapters (suras) of unequal length which are classified either as Meccan (&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1603;&#1610;&#1577 or Medinan (&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1583;&#1610;&#1606;&#1610;&#1577 depending upon the place and time of their claimed revelation.[7] Muslims believe the Quran to be verbally revealed through angel Jibr&#299;l (Gabriel) from God to Muhammad gradually over a period of approximately 23 years beginning on 22 December 609 CE[8], when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632 CE, the year of his death.[1][9][10]
> 
> Shortly after Muhammad's death the Quran was compiled into a single book by order of the first Caliph Abu Bakr and at the suggestion of his future successor Umar. Hafsa, Muhammad's widow and Caliph Umar's daughter, was entrusted with that Quranic text after the second Caliph Umar died.[11] When the third Caliph Uthman began noticing slight differences in pronunciation of the Qur'anic Arabic by those whose dialect was not that of the Quraish, he sought Hafsa's permission to use her text and commissioned a committee to produce a standard copy of the text of Qur'an to which added diacritical marks ensured correct pronunciation, and to be set as the standard dialect, the Quraish dialect, now known as Fus'ha (Modern Standard Arabic) (see Origin and development of the Qur'an). Five of these original Qur'ans (Mus'haf) were sent to the major Muslim cities of the era, with Uthman keeping one for his own use in Medina. Any variations to standardized text were invalidated and ordered to be destroyed, all other versions of the Qur'an copied by scribes subsequently were from this codex. This process of formalization is known as the "Uthmanic recension".[12] The present form of the Quran text is accepted by most scholars as the original version compiled by Abu Bakr.[12][13]



Quran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try again Because You Blow Goats.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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I just said the Koran came in separate verses Shithead wow read again


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Separate verses that were compiled by his followers.  And, for any of those things to be included in the Quaran, they had to be witnessed to have been said in front of no less than 2 followers, which means there could have been room for collaboration.

Face it Because You Blow Goats, you don't know much about anything.

Go back under your rock ya cock choking sperm burping colon jouster.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


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Are you drunk, donkey #2? The bible was written by Jesus followers dumbass than they put it together, no different than the Koran dumbass, and there is no proof of Jesus existing even though I believe in him, but just to make you look like a donkey


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Actually, it depends on which part of the Bible you're looking at.  The OT is the first 5 books which were given to Moses, and the rest of the OT is pretty much a written history of the Jewish people.  And.............it follows a chronological order.

The NT has the first 4 books (written by various followers) who put the life of Yeshua in CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER, which was followed by more stories, ending with Revelation.

Like I said, God brought order out of chaos, why would He support a mixed up religion following a mixed up book?

What's the matter, still got your head stuck firmly up your ass?  You may wish to install a glass belly button so that you can see where you're going.

Yet another Fail, Because You Blow Goats.


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 30, 2012)

Oh..............and by the way..............there IS proof that Yeshua existed.  He was written about by the historian Josephus, as well as there's a coin that has been found with the likeness and name of Yeshua on it (coins weren't minted back then for fictional characters, only actual people).

But, I guess facts and history are something you don't pay much attention to.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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Donkey #2, he make no sense whatsoever, what do you mean by mixed religion? The Koran reaccounts the other prohets stories make a real statement


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Oh..............and by the way..............there IS proof that Yeshua existed.  He was written about by the historian Josephus, as well as there's a coin that has been found with the likeness and name of Yeshua on it (coins weren't minted back then for fictional characters, only actual people).
> 
> But, I guess facts and history are something you don't pay much attention to.



No there isn't lmao, you are only looking at the world in a Christian point of view you make no sense again learn how to debate, you are just putting words in my mouth over and over because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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What's the matter, did the sperm from your goat dry in your eyes making it hard to read?  

There is NO ORDER OR CHRONOLOGICAL SENSE TO THE KORAN.  

There IS order and a chronological sense to the Bible.  

What part of that do you not understand?


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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It came verse in chronological order, but the book no, so what? Muhammad was the only prophet there so are you saying Christians would record that Muhamamd was the final prophet? Hell no they wouldn't


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

This guy is funny? Which do you agree on? Genesis 1 and Genisis 2 Disagree about the order in which events happened


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

All gospels condraictions each other? So what do you mean various people?


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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Mohammed was the ONLY prophet?  (I highlighted your quote to let others know how stupid you are).

Shows how much you don't know, because even the Koran acknowledges Yeshua as a prophet.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 30, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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I acknowledge Jesus as a prophet, and look again donkey "Muhammad was the only prophet *THERE*" , do you see that donkey? There in Mecca at the time, again all the gospels disagree with each other so your claim that various recorded the same thing is false


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 31, 2012)

Hey...................Because You Blow Goats..................ever think that the only reason I respond to you is to laugh?

Way to go ya sperm burping gutter bitch.


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## ima (Aug 31, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> This guy is funny? Which do you agree on? Genesis 1 and Genisis 2 Disagree about the order in which events happened



Who wrote the part about god making the world in 6 days and where did he get his info?


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## FckingAmazing (Aug 31, 2012)

Buford said:


> If Allah is the One True Living God, then why are all the muslim men such cowards and wife beaters who hide behind baby carriages while they toss bombs are children?


It's about fcking bad people not about  the Quran or the Bible , people changed holy books according to their own interest 




Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > World wide Islam has reached 1.5 million adherents and growing every day.
> ...


i agree with you Buford The number of people doesn't mean anything , i prefer one good muslim instead of 1 millon bad muslimfor example i heard a lot of non-islamic things in Iran that they know that's islamic.




Buford said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
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this is not a game or war to win , this talking ain't nice , it doesn't suit islam


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## ima (Aug 31, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Oh..............and by the way..............there IS proof that Yeshua existed.  He was written about by the historian Josephus, as well as there's a coin that has been found with the likeness and name of Yeshua on it (coins weren't minted back then for fictional characters, only actual people).
> 
> But, I guess facts and history are something you don't pay much attention to.



Josephus was born in the year 37, meaning he didn't actually know and never saw Jesus, so that's called hearsay or wishful thinking. Nice try though.

The coins are from about 1000 years ago. Not even close.

Got anything else?


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## Dajjal (Aug 31, 2012)

ima said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Oh..............and by the way..............there IS proof that Yeshua existed.  He was written about by the historian Josephus, as well as there's a coin that has been found with the likeness and name of Yeshua on it (coins weren't minted back then for fictional characters, only actual people).
> ...



From the annals of the Roman historian Tacitus. Annal 15:44

15.44.2. But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour. 
15.44.3. The originator of this name, Christ, was sentenced to torture by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified.


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## BecauseIKnow (Aug 31, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey...................Because You Blow Goats..................ever think that the only reason I respond to you is to laugh?
> 
> Way to go ya sperm burping gutter bitch.



You just embarrassed yourself dumbass trying to prove that I'm STUPID moron but you forgot the last word on the sentence, lmao now you only do it for laughs hahahahaha sureeeee


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## ima (Aug 31, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
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Tacitus was born in the year 56, so he didn't meet Jesus either.


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## Dajjal (Aug 31, 2012)

ima said:


> Tacitus was born in the year 56, so he didn't meet Jesus either.



Well arn't you a clever boy? But I think there are Roman records of Neros persecution of christians in 43 AD. This was within living memory of Jesus time.

It would seem strange if people were willing to die in Jesus name, rather than deny him.
Only 43 years after his reported death. Would they have died for a fictional character within living memory of his time?.


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## Dajjal (Aug 31, 2012)

Pliny the Younger, on christians

'They were in the habit of meeting before dawn on a fixed day. They would recite in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a God, and would bind themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any criminal act, but rather that they would not commit any fraud, theft or adultery, nor betray any trust nor refuse to restore a deposit on demand. This done, they would disperse, and then they would meet again later to eat together (but the food was quite ordinary and harmless.)


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 31, 2012)

ima said:


> Dajjal said:
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I never met Thomas Edison either, but I do know that he existed from the historical evidence.

You don't have to actually meet the person to know if they existed or not.


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## ima (Sep 1, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> ima said:
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> > Dajjal said:
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... of the people of the time. 

It's possible that someone named Jesus existed and started a religion, but all the things attributed to him doing? Pure fiction to advance their religion because who's going to follow some ordinary douchesack who was crucified in his underwear? Saving that story from becoming The Greatest Comedy Ever Told was maybe the biggest literary coup of all time!


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## chesswarsnow (Sep 1, 2012)

Sorry bout that,


1. Its possible that God himself eternal God, was able to install his seed, a complete copy of himself as an human fertilized egg inside the ready uterus of the Virgin Mary.
2. God the creator of the Universe, was born as a baby, grew up just like every other human in his image, to not only judge his creation, but actually be one of his creations, for a while, kicking the tires on life as *we* know it, so to be able to know what we live with, and for, and how this reality shapes our lives, to be able reach out with condescension to *our* lives: *Self Created Human Being* a special creation, only God could accomplish.
3. God himself, fulfilling hundreds of prophetic sayings spoken of by his prophets who he himself sent.
4. In short; I just peeled back all reality; so even the simple have no reason now; not to understand who Jesus Christ, *is*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## ima (Sep 1, 2012)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 1. Its possible that God himself eternal God, was able to install his seed, a complete copy of himself as an human fertilized egg inside the ready uterus of the Virgin Mary.
> ...


1. It's possible that if you believe that god put his own seed in the mary without any proof at all, that you may be the dumbest human on the face of the earth.
2. No god has ever been proven creator of the universe.
3. Like what?
4. You peeled back reality all right to reveal that you live in a fantasy world.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Sep 1, 2012)

Sorry bout that,





ima said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...





1. His seed is himself, so he put himself into Mary, we as humans put our seed into our wives, that fertilizes the womens egg, which the two together; starts human life, by the dna creative process, brought on by God.
2. Jesus wasn't done like we do it, he was a shovel ready egg, not needing man to fertilize it, it is something only God could do, being creator of all.
3. The proof is in the pudding and the Master Chef does not have to reveal his recipe.
4. It is written, do your own due diligence.
5. Sure I peeled *ALL* known knowledge back in a small list, I do this because I have God given power to do so. 


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## ima (Sep 1, 2012)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. You SPECULATE that conception is "brought on by God". What actual proof do you have?
2. See 1.
3. Simplistic generalization devoid of any real meaning. 
4. Depends who's writing the book, some are fiction, others aren't.
5. Like you're anywhere near "all known knowledge".


----------



## ABikerSailor (Sep 1, 2012)

By the way.................do you guys realize that Mormons don't believe in the virgin birth?


----------



## Avatar4321 (Sep 1, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> By the way.................do you guys realize that Mormons don't believe in the virgin birth?



Do you realize thats a complete and utter lie, right?


----------



## ABikerSailor (Sep 1, 2012)

> One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is that Christ was born of a virgin. The Bible teaches that though she had not yet had physical intercourse with a man, Mary miraculously conceived and bore a son. Mormons insist that they believe in the "virgin birth", yet many of them have described it in a way far removed from what Christians have believed for two millennia. While individual Mormons are divided over this issue, to this day the Mormon Church has no unequivocal official position on whether the immortal Heavenly Father had sexual intercourse with his mortal spirit-daughter Mary to conceive Jesus.
> 
> Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie, in perhaps the most explicit denial of the virgin birth, wrote,
> 
> ...



Redefining the Virgin Birth: Mormonism on the Natural Conception of Jesus | Mormonism Research Ministry


----------



## ima (Sep 2, 2012)

I read somewhere here where someone claimed that Mary was a virgin because Joseph only banged her in the ass. Is that true?


----------



## ima (Sep 2, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > By the way.................do you guys realize that Mormons don't believe in the virgin birth?
> ...



But they do wear magic underwear.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Sep 2, 2012)

Sorry bout that,


1. I vote to ban.
2. Fuck You.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## American_Jihad (Oct 2, 2012)




----------



## Uncensored2008 (Oct 2, 2012)

American_Jihad said:


>



I wonder who that Muzzie Beast is, and if he's more famous than the internet tough guy?


----------



## Aristotle (Oct 2, 2012)

This thread is trolling.

For one I assume the OP does not know classical Arabic.

Two, never trust a man who chooses an Avatar of a man with a bird on his face.


----------



## The Irish Ram (Oct 2, 2012)

ima said:


> I read somewhere here where someone claimed that Mary was a virgin because Joseph only banged her in the ass. Is that true?



Did you ever read what life would have been like if you had received enough oxygen at birth?


----------



## American_Jihad (Oct 2, 2012)

ima said:


> I read somewhere here where someone claimed that Mary was a virgin because Joseph only banged her in the ass. Is that true?



That might have been yo birth certificate you were reading...


----------



## ABikerSailor (Oct 2, 2012)

The Irish Ram said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > I read somewhere here where someone claimed that Mary was a virgin because Joseph only banged her in the ass. Is that true?
> ...



He probably did get enough oxygen at birth.  Why?  Because they are at least able to type and (maybe) read.

I don't think the oxygen deprivation came around until they turned 18 and shoved their head firmly up their ass.


----------



## Aristotle (Oct 2, 2012)

the irish ram said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > i read somewhere here where someone claimed that mary was a virgin because joseph only banged her in the ass. Is that true?
> ...



lmao


----------



## Duped (Oct 2, 2012)

No - it is a hateful piece of shit!


----------



## Dajjal (Oct 3, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> This thread is trolling.
> 
> For one I assume the OP does not know classical Arabic.
> 
> Two, never trust a man who chooses an Avatar of a man with a bird on his face.



I don't need to be able to read Arabic to understand the quran is a load of lying crap, and my avatar is a photo of me kissing my pet bird on the bum while she swings on my glasses.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2012)

Sorry bout that,


1. Glad to see *ima* that piece of horse shit is *banned*.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## Aristotle (Oct 3, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is trolling.
> ...



Yes you need to read Arabic to understand words.

In my favorite passage in the Qur'an it says:

"Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir Raheem,
Alhamdulilahi Rabbil Alamin...."

In The Name Of God, The Compassionate The Merciful

All praise is due to God, The  Lord Of The Universe.

The word Alamin has various terms.

Alamin could mean matter, space, it means All that exist. Arabic is not english where a word means one thing.

If its that easy why have scholars on the Torah, Bible and Qur'an?


----------



## Dajjal (Oct 4, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Aristotle said:
> ...



I say that the general meaning of the quran can be deduced by comparing various translations, and as I have said on this thread, there is only one meaning and purpose in the quran.

It says, many times, "Obey Allah, and the messenger"

Any bloody fool can see that this is Muhammad telling you to obey him, and fight his rotten wars for him, and even die for him. With the promise of heaven if you do and hellfire if you do not.

I STAKE MY IMMORTAL SOUL ON IT THAT I AM RIGHT.

To hell with Arabic, I refuse to try to understand that scribble, because the English translations are clear enough to deduce the quran is evil lies about God.


----------



## Dajjal (Oct 27, 2012)

In case anyone is thinking of converting to Islam, please read this thread first.


----------



## HUGGY (Oct 27, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



There is no sky fairy named "god".  Therefore there are no "god's" words.  There are mans words, sponsored by governments, aimed at stupid people to manipulate them and keep these stupid people managable.

So..yes...you are right.  The Koran is rubbish.  But then so is your bible.


----------



## ima (Oct 28, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> In case anyone is thinking of converting to Islam, please read this thread first.



No, it's even simpler than that. Mohammy described how a good muslim should wipe his or her ass with rocks, the size, shape... everything. So first, if you want to be a true muslim, wipe your ass with rocks, then tell your wife that you're getting 3 more hags just like her, and if you're still alive after that, beat the wife until she begs for allah's forgiveness. While constantly going to kiss a smelly carpet about 3 inches away from some other sweaty muslim dirty feet who's just taken his shoes off. 

That's step 1.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Oct 28, 2012)

Si Si Si !


----------



## 2ndAmendment (Oct 28, 2012)

ISLAM IS OF THE DEVIL.   

allah is not God.

The filthy koran is NOT the Bible.

That about sums it up.


----------



## ima (Oct 28, 2012)

2ndAmendment said:


> ISLAM IS OF THE DEVIL.
> 
> allah is not God.
> 
> ...



The bible is the biggest book of bullshit ever written. And if the god of the bible made man in his own image, he must be one hell of a dumb fuck.


----------



## 2ndAmendment (Oct 28, 2012)

ima said:


> 2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > ISLAM IS OF THE DEVIL.
> ...



Another God hater?   You know where that will get you.


----------



## ima (Oct 28, 2012)

2ndAmendment said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > 2ndAmendment said:
> ...



You can't hate something that has never been proven to exist.


----------



## Noomi (Oct 29, 2012)

2ndAmendment said:


> ISLAM IS OF THE DEVIL.
> 
> allah is not God.
> 
> ...



Allah is God. Get used to it.


----------



## ima (Oct 29, 2012)

Noomi said:


> 2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > ISLAM IS OF THE DEVIL.
> ...



Noom, do you wear a big black sheet over your whole body?


----------



## Dajjal (Oct 29, 2012)

Noomi said:


> 2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > ISLAM IS OF THE DEVIL.
> ...



Allah is the Arabic for God. But the Allah described in the quran is a mumbling monster.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Oct 29, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > 2ndAmendment said:
> ...



You're being a stupid still


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Oct 29, 2012)

Awww! Dajjal you convinced of how tormenting it is to follow a religion. Ahh I'm so scared. He He He! 

You're cause is getting you no where.


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## Dajjal (Oct 29, 2012)

becauseiknow
I have been involved in spiritualism and the occult for over fourty years, and the least I can do with all that experience is to apply it to the conventional religions.

I found many flaws in the bible, and was more impressed by eastern religions which believe in reincarnation and karma, although I have no respect for all the Gods of the Hindus.

I read the quran after 9/11 and read it with an open mind. If it had been a message from God I would have known it. But I soon saw it was full of evil lies about God and it makes him out to be a monster.

I believe Gods plan is perfect and he makes no mistakes. Nobody will burn in eternal fire, and all souls will ultimately become perfect themselves, after countless incarnations.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Oct 29, 2012)

I don't care what you believe.

I don't care that you read the Koran after 9/11. That shouldn't interfere with your objective. 

I don't care what you think of Prophets. Moses ordered Prisoners to be killed.And you didn't back up your claim on what the Prophet ordered. Muhammad was in a Arabic world and culture. Different than everyone else, it was way worse before him, the laws were like that.

As for God, I don't believe what you believe, this would all be a waste of time if it was your way. We weren't created for no reason. 

And no your theory on perfecting souls is not realistic or possible, it sounds like a stupid game.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Oct 29, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> You're being a stupid still



"Allah" of the Koran is the Djin of the Phallic Stone in the Kaaba. Who does history record as the resident of that particular idol? The idol that all Muslims bow to 5 times daily?

Oh, that's right - the meteorite known as the Phallic or Black Stone is the traditional idol thought to house the Mesopotamian moon god, who the Israelites called "Ba'al."







 Allah.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Oct 29, 2012)

Don't do this for the fun or the trolling. Especially you, people aren't looking for your insight.


----------



## Dajjal (Oct 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> I don't care what you believe.
> 
> I don't care that you read the Koran after 9/11. That shouldn't interfere with your objective.
> 
> ...



I read the quran after 9/11 because I wanted to understand what motivated Muslims to commit a suicide attack of such magnitude. As I say I started reading the quran with an open mind, expecting it to be a spiritual book like the teachings of Jesus or Buddha.

What I found in a very short time from opening the quran for the first time is that it is largely stolen material, taken directly from the bible and other sources. I did a study of this and wrote some pieces which I pasted in at the beginning of this thread.
The quran is a poorly written, half remembered rendition of the bible, and it has little or no narrative. Unlike the bible which tells stories in an orderly fashion.
The quran says little more than name dropping a list of bible prophets, with little detail about what they have done. This is most obvious in sura 12 which completely omits all the basic details of the story of Joseph. It is so obvious that sura 12 is a half rememberer rendition of the bible story that it is laughable. Especially when Muslims claim the quran is so profound it is a miracle.

Added to this the quran is filled with complete nonsense, like the sun orbits the earth in a semi circle and is reset at every dawn.

I  also find all the lurid descriptions of hell in the quran a sickening diatribe of offensive nonsense. All my studies of the practical occult tell me that God would never do such things to human beings, and therefore it is all the lies of Muhammad, trying to scare people into fighting his wars for him, and threatening them with hell if he does not.

I feel the need to try to free peoples minds from the fear of Muhammad's false God, so I will continue to criticize the quran at every opportunity.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Oct 30, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care what you believe.
> ...



Now you're sounding like a propagandist. I could waste my time with you but I won't. You specifically target Islam. It's a disease with you Muslim haters. But nothing of the Torah which the bible came from, and what it says. Of course none of that disgusts you. We know who you are. The same old same old.


----------



## ima (Oct 30, 2012)

The Quran contains the word of a pedophile who wants everyone to wipe their ass with an uneven number of rocks. No wonder muslers are so pissed!


----------



## Dajjal (Nov 1, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Now you're sounding like a propagandist. I could waste my time with you but I won't. You specifically target Islam. It's a disease with you Muslim haters. But nothing of the Torah which the bible came from, and what it says. Of course none of that disgusts you. We know who you are. The same old same old.



The Torah is filled with imperfection, and fear of hell, but that is where Muhammad got his idea of scaring people with hellfire. The following verses show just how evil Muhammad was in trying to enslave peoples minds with fear of God. A God who would do such things to human beings is a sadistic monster to be despised not worshipped.



Quran sura
22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
22.20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
22.21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
22.22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"


4.56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.


----------



## ima (Nov 1, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Now you're sounding like a propagandist. I could waste my time with you but I won't. You specifically target Islam. It's a disease with you Muslim haters. But nothing of the Torah which the bible came from, and what it says. Of course none of that disgusts you. We know who you are. The same old same old.
> ...



At least the torah doesn't tell Jews to wipe their ass with an uneven number of rocks, like the prophet Muhammy describes.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Now you're sounding like a propagandist. I could waste my time with you but I won't. You specifically target Islam. It's a disease with you Muslim haters. But nothing of the Torah which the bible came from, and what it says. Of course none of that disgusts you. We know who you are. The same old same old.
> ...



Hellfire is described as such in every abrahamic religion. And no " dajjal" you aren't putting words in my mouth. It wasn't Muhammad it was God.


----------



## Meathead (Nov 1, 2012)

Why would God chose a delusional pedophile to channel his gospel? I just don't get it.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 1, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



It's a propagandist who would defend a totalitarian politico-religious ideology such as Islam. 

There are varied claims as to what islam "is" as there are varied subdivisions of islamism. The religion's inventor created a politico-religious ideology which is still interpreted literally and is a virulent manifesto of God-given Islamosupremacy. The Muslim Brotherhood and dozens of their contemporaries are following the blueprint for the Religion of Peace's agenda. It's actually just a matter of convenience to identify a discrete group of villains with a name, rather than the religious ideology that inspires them.

The Koran, for me, is tedious, disjointed, and long-winded, but instructive nevertheless in demonstrating a firm religious basis for the violent expansion of Islamic supremacy through jihad. I found this sanction and obligation for holy war in the koran confirmed and reinforced when I read the hadith (the collections of sunnahthe deeds, behavior, and words of Muhammud (swish) and his companions) of Bukhari and Muslim, which are considered to be wholly authentic. Throughout the sunnah, jihad is glorified as a supreme act of faith. I've also read Sirat Rasul Allah, Muhammad's sacralized biography by Ibn Ishaq, the 'Umdat al-Salik manual of Islamic fiqh, works by Sayyid Qutb, Ibn Taimiyyah, Abul-A`la al-Maududi, Abdullah Azzam, and any other writings I could find from islamist sheikhs and "scholars". Most importantly, I've read Islam's history, particularly focusing on jihad and its colonialistic/imperialistic character. I also began to follow the worldwide jihad in the media, and I started to pay more attention to what has been taking place in the islamist Middle East.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

Islam has no inventor. God sent it.

I could care less that you hate muslims. 

You behave like a animal. 

Don't care for your poltical reasons. 

You made no point at all. 

Besides saying you throw Christianity under the bus and you're not a person for God. You're for satan. He plays with your head.

You don't have an ounce of love for God the way you speak of religion.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

People like Hollie are so brainwashed and fed propaganda they don't even notice how vile they start being. Like she said she followed the media. No wonder she sounds like a sheep.


----------



## ima (Nov 1, 2012)

So it was god who told Mohammy how to wipe his ass?


----------



## Hollie (Nov 1, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> People like Hollie are so brainwashed and fed propaganda they don't even notice how vile they start being. Like she said she followed the media. No wonder she sounds like a sheep.



Yours is the stereotypical blathering of the propagandist. Boilerplate responses which, of  course, respond to nothing. You're unable to offer anything in refutation so you're reduced to childish name-calling.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

Hollie said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > People like Hollie are so brainwashed and fed propaganda they don't even notice how vile they start being. Like she said she followed the media. No wonder she sounds like a sheep.
> ...



Refutation of what? 

No I won't respond to hateful nonsense. If you actually try to make a point it would make a little more sense


----------



## Hollie (Nov 1, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Islam has no inventor. God sent it.
> 
> I could care less that you hate muslims.
> 
> ...



So.... aside from that childish tantrum.... could you re-read you post and try to compose sentences as if you're a grown-up.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

Hollie said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Islam has no inventor. God sent it.
> ...



I don't copy and paste my things like you. All your stuff is off a website. I won't even bother stating where you get your pickup lines.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 1, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



I offered several points you could have responded to. If you can't make sense of Islam's history of war, conquest and subjugation, you're either in denial or a pedestrian propagandist. How would you describe yourself?


----------



## Hollie (Nov 1, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



I'm not responsible for your childish tantrums. 

How many wars of aggression did muhammud (swish) lead?  Hint: 3.

How many wars of aggression did muhammud (swish) fight in? Hint: 72


----------



## Meathead (Nov 1, 2012)

Hollie said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Submission is part and parcel of Islam. After all "Islam" means submission to God. If you want to submit, do so if you please. I do not feel the need to do so, nor do I feel the need to respect pedophiles.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

Hollie said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



What do you mean?? You're a funny person.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

Hollie said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Wrong. He never lead any wars. He was defending his people who were being persecuted in a few battles. Inside of Arabia. All self defense.

Moses was involved in plenty of wars. I don't see what's your point.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 1, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...


False! Only a propagandist would claim that the endless wars fought by muhammud (swish) were defensive.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 1, 2012)

Hollie said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



No. They weren't wars. But battles of self defense.


----------



## Dajjal (Nov 2, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> And no your theory on perfecting souls is not realistic or possible, it sounds like a stupid game.



So you think we will all go to heaven or hell for all eternity, and remain imperfect as  we are for all of time?

That makes no sense and is not workable.

Unless you are happy to sit by flowing streams where the fruit hangs low, being waited on by wide eyed youths for all eternity. Which is the heaven Muhammad promised to dusty old Arabs in the quran.

Well let me make it plain where I am going according to Islam, because I utterly reject Muhammad and his monster God Allah the unmerciful. I would rather go to burn in hell than grovel on my head before such a terrible God.

But I am confident I will suffer no such fate, because the Allah described in the quran is the invention of a cruel minded bandit, not a messenger of God.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 2, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > And no your theory on perfecting souls is not realistic or possible, it sounds like a stupid game.
> ...



Nope.


----------



## amrchaos (Nov 2, 2012)

Of course it is Gods words.  So is the Bible!

Why would the prophets of God lie?


----------



## ima (Nov 4, 2012)

Since they had no toilet paper in islam, do you think that maybe sometimes they'd use pages from the koran to wipe the poo from their starfish?


----------



## pjnlsn (Nov 7, 2012)

Hollie said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Moses was involved in plenty of wars. I don't see what's your point.
> ...



I agree with BecauseIKnow, religious wars, or any wars, are by no means restricted to Islam, however many more Islamic states tended to engage in over history.


----------



## amrchaos (Nov 7, 2012)

pjnlsn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



Is that because the muslims are more violent

Or is it due to the lack of order amongst Islamic countries in comparison to the Catholic order imposed on the majority of European states up until the reformation?

Note--with the reformation era came a period of increased warfare amongst European states.  The Catholic stranglehold on religious beliefs, as well as their authority and influence in European affairs, was at an end.


----------



## ima (Nov 8, 2012)

amrchaos said:


> pjnlsn said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



GW Bush's Christian Crusade in Iraq and Afghanistan was way more violent than anything the Muslims have done in recent memory.


----------



## there4eyeM (Nov 8, 2012)

As for the word of God, it could be said that of course the Koran is. 

A modern monotheist maintains that God is One. As there is no duality in God, creation is part. As humans are part of creation and therefore part of God, of course all words are God's.

Perhaps we should all be much more careful of what we say, even non-believers.


----------



## ima (Nov 11, 2012)

I think Muhammy wrote the quran so he wouldn't have to wipe his ass with rocks any more, so he invented the first portable bumwad. That's why good muslims memorize the quran, because eventually you run out of pages.


----------



## Dajjal (Nov 11, 2012)

Who ever heard of a holy book that has an entire chapter/sura in it entitled, The spoils of War.

Sura 8 is a clear example of Muhammads mind at work, telling Arab bandits they can win booty by fighting his battles for him. It begins in sura 8.1 by telling them all spoils of war belong to Allah and his messenger. But by the time he had reached sura 8.41 Muhammad obviously decided he would have to share the booty if he wanted people to risk their lives for him, so he said only one fifth of the spoils belonged to him.

This is a clear contradiction in a book that says if you can find contradictions in it, it is not from God. 

As for saying spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, Muhammad is obviously claiming the spoils for himself, as Allah needs no spoils of war.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 11, 2012)

Dajjal spreading mis information and interpreting it his own way, he likes playing around with verses and making different stories up for each. 

"And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to God,- and to the Apostle, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in God and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For God hath power over all things.  (The Noble Quran, 8:41)"

"Booty taken in a lawful and just war does not belong to any individual.  If he fought for such accessory rewards, he fought from wrong motives.  It belongs to the Cause, in this case the Cause of Allah, as administered by His Messenger.  Any portion given out to individuals are accessory gifts, windfalls from the bounty of the Commander.  The chief thing is to remain staunch to the Cause of Allah, and have no differences among those who stand for the Cause.  Our internal relations must be kept straight: they must not be disturbed by cupidity or worldly considerations of gain, for any windfalls of this kind should be outside our calculations." [2]

"The rule is that a fifth share is set apart for the Imam (the Commander) and the rest is divided among the forces.  The fifth share reserved is expressed to be for Allah and the Prophet, and for charitable purposes for those to whom charity is due.   Ultimately everything is at the disposal of Allah and His Prophet: (Noble Verse) 8:1: but four-fifths are divided, and only one-fifth is retained for the special purposes. The Imam has discretion as to the mode of division.  In the Prophet's lifetime a certain portion was assigned to him and his near relatives." [3]

That's what it went to. 


He doesn't seem to mention Aaron and his sons took all of the spoils of war. 

He doesn't also understand the concept of why they, the Prophets, received them.


----------



## BecauseIKnow (Nov 11, 2012)

Btw. When it says It goes to Allah(God), it doesn't mean he literally takes it, it's his Prophets who are chosen by God and it spreads the message of God. Basically God decides it since he tells Muhammad and other Prophets what to do. Many times he commands them, whether in the bible, or torah, or Koran.


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## Dajjal (Nov 12, 2012)

You do not have to read very far into sura 8 to smell a rat. Muhammad claims God would send a thousand angels to fight alongside the muslims. But that obviously never happened, or history would have recorded it big time. So Muhammad was lying to bolster the courage of his army. 

Quran, sura 8.9  Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: 
"I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."


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## Dajjal (Nov 12, 2012)

Here is the verse in Sura 8 which tells muslims to behead unbelievers. It is clearly talking about striking their necks with a sword.

8.12  Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: 
give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: 
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 12, 2012)

Gee, dajjal, it seems that when you take a verse out of context it tends to cause confusion, and misinformation. 

You cannot be honest for once, can ya?

The whole chapter is titled the "Spoils of War" 

It has 75 verses, too many to post here. People can search it and decide themselves, rather than go to your foolish preaching.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 12, 2012)

And the verse 8:12 is directly referring to the battle where Muslims had angels help them. So in a war, if you want to live, you kill the enemies. That's common sense


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## ima (Nov 13, 2012)

I bet Muhammy couldn't even read or write.


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## Dajjal (Nov 13, 2012)

ima said:


> I bet Muhammy couldn't even read or write.



No! but he had the Torah read out to him.


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## Dajjal (Nov 13, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Gee, dajjal, it seems that when you take a verse out of context it tends to cause confusion, and misinformation.
> 
> You cannot be honest for once, can ya?
> 
> ...



Too right, there is a whole sura in the quran entitled Spoils of war. That is exactly my point.

The quran is not a holy book, or a message from God, it is the handbook of an Arab bandit who stole religion from the Bible to scare people into fighting for him.
He then pays them off by claiming that God said it is right to take booty in war.

Quran sura 8.69  But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear God: for 
God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


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## Dajjal (Nov 13, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> And the verse 8:12 is directly referring to the battle where Muslims had angels help them. So in a war, if you want to live, you kill the enemies. That's common sense



The quran divides people into believers and unbelievers in Muhammad.
It says believers will be rewarded in heaven if they die in battle and it says that unbelievers will burn in eternal hell. It says that the curse of God is on unbelievers.
It sets believers against unbelievers in war and hatred.

How obvious does it have to be for muslims to see they have been deceived by a false prophet, and a war monger?

Would a just God create a world full of people and then take sides and set them at war?


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 13, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > I bet Muhammy couldn't even read or write.
> ...



Of course, another guy who claims religion belongs to the Jews. And the Torah is all right, jews are right, etc. I see where you're going. Christians and Muslims are false trash, and the Jews are legitimate. Nice try.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 13, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Gee, dajjal, it seems that when you take a verse out of context it tends to cause confusion, and misinformation.
> ...



You're wrong. It's a guide, religion goes into everything, Islam is about every aspect of life, the spoils of war were addressed by God as well. He guides them through everything.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 13, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > And the verse 8:12 is directly referring to the battle where Muslims had angels help them. So in a war, if you want to live, you kill the enemies. That's common sense
> ...



How foolish are you? 

Every religion separates believers with unbelievers, Islam says unbelievers are on a wrong path. 

It's so obvious a quarter of the world are Muslims. 

Maybe you're wrong and stupid?


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## Dajjal (Nov 13, 2012)

So because unbelivers in Muhammad are on the wrong path, they must be destroyed?
According to the Unholy Quran, God continually destroys people.
Who would worship such a God, but the gullible who believe they are going to be saved because they are believers. They do not seem to care that the God they worship is a sadistic homicidal monster, as long as they are among the saved. But a God that creates people, only to drown them is not worth worshipping. 
See the following list of people the quran says God has destroyed.

7.4 How many towns have We destroyed (for their sins)? Our punishment took  them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest.

8.54 (Deeds) after the manner of the people of Pharaoh and those before them": They treated as false the Signs of their Lord: so We destroyed them for their crimes, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh: for they were all oppressors and wrong- doers.

10.13 Generations before you We destroyed when they did wrong: their apostles came to them with clear-signs, but they would not believe! thus do We requite those who sin!

17.17 How many generations have We destroyed after Noah? and enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.

18.59 Such were the populations we destroyed when they committed iniquities; but we fixed an appointed time for their destruction.

19.74 But how many (countless) generations before them have we destroyed, who were even better in equipment and in glitter to the eye?

19.98 But how many (countless) generations before them have We destroyed? Canst thou find a single one of them (now) or hear (so much as) a whisper of them? 

44.37 What! Are they better than the people of Tubba and those who were before them? We destroyed them because they were guilty of sin.


053.050 And that it is He Who destroyed the (powerful) ancient 'Ad (people),

53.53 And He destroyed the Overthrown Cities (of Sodom and Gomorrah).

54.34 We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,-

69.5 But the Thamud,- they were destroyed by a terrible Storm of thunder and lightning!

69.6 And the 'Ad, they were destroyed by a furious Wind, exceedingly violent;


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## Dajjal (Nov 13, 2012)

The quran says that unbelievers in Muhammad and the day of judgement will burn in eternal hellfire, and then gives lurid descriptions of hell. Does this mean that God is going to do the following things to all Buddhists and Hindus?


22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
22.20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
22.21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
22.22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"


4.56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 13, 2012)

That Surah is on the events of the Torah and time of Moses. God did flood the Egyptians at the time according to abrahamic religions. 

These stories are in the Bible as well. But we know you can't control your Muslim hate.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 13, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> The quran says that unbelievers in Muhammad and the day of judgement will burn in eternal hellfire, and then gives lurid descriptions of hell. Does this mean that God is going to do the following things to all Buddhists and Hindus?
> 
> 
> 22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
> ...



A Muslim isn't by name, The Koran says Christians and Jews, many will go to Heaven before Muhammad. And after, it depends on Gods judgement. 

If Islam is truly Gods religion. Then it's correct. 

Islam also says many Muslims will go to hellfire, being a Muslim isn't about name, it's the tenets, speech and heart. That's why Muslims call other Prophets muslims, because they technically follow the way of God. 

True followers of a God will make it to Paradiase.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 13, 2012)

ima said:


> I bet Muhammy couldn't even read or write.



Correct.  Mohammed was illiterate.

The Koran was compiled after his death by his followers.  In order for something that Mohammed said to be included, it had to be witnessed by no less than 2 followers.


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## ima (Nov 14, 2012)

ABikerSailor said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > I bet Muhammy couldn't even read or write.
> ...



So at least 2 people saw him wipe his ass with rocks?


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## Dajjal (Nov 24, 2012)

Here are more blood thirsty and contradictory verses from sura 8.
Verse 8.65 says believers can defeat odds of ten to one. But in the next verse he thinks the better of it, and makes the odds two to one.

8.65  O Apostle! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

8.66  For the present, God hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of God: for God is with those who patiently persevere.

Then in the next verse Muhammad says he will not take prisoners until he has subdued the land. This presumably means captives will be killed.

8.67  It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but God looketh to the Hereafter: And God is Exalted in might, Wise.


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## FckingAmazing (Nov 24, 2012)

Is Muhammed a prophet ?? watch to the end please

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQrvG_2AsoU&list=UUtRmRQ6mLyPFzQTwV8ZNJew&index=25&feature=plcp]Onun peygamber oldu[/ame]


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## FckingAmazing (Nov 24, 2012)

Is Quran full of contradictory ?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVyrZzLnns&list=UUtRmRQ6mLyPFzQTwV8ZNJew&index=4&feature=plcp]Kuranda çeli[/ame]


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## FckingAmazing (Nov 24, 2012)

Laurence B. Brown famous atheist denied Quran and Bible 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jwklFQw738&feature=related]Ateist doktorun mucizevi Müslüman olu[/ame]


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## FckingAmazing (Nov 25, 2012)

in the Quran Name of Prophets Moses and Prophets Jesus passing more than Prophets Muhammed .. Quran is  from the same God. people changing them in their interest ..  you should look whole Quran and whole life of Prophet Muhammed .. Prophets Muhammed life show us even every details  you can't see these details in any others prophets .. you should read Whole Quran not just some words that you will use to blame it ..if you look Quran for to find God you 'll find , if you look Quran for make demogogy you 'll not find God ..  i suggest you talk with people who is converted islam , they are better than natural muslims , becoz they search every details ..  i think these people understand more clearly islam .. i'm not believing in God with unconcisous way .. if i found something that shows Quran is not from God .. i  would not believe it .. and people changing islam in their interest too as people changed Christianity , or Judaism ... Hadith could be changed but Quran is last holy book and never gonna be changed ..i think


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## Dajjal (Nov 25, 2012)

FkingAmazing,
I have read the quran, and I have several English translations of it for comparison. I found the quran poorly written mumbling, repedetive, and without narrative. I have written several pieces about that which I posted in the first few pages of this thread.
For example, I wrote a piece on sura 12 which makes plain that the story is a half remembered rendition of the bible story which leaves out many essential details that make the story comprehensible. It is obvious Muhammad had the bible read to him then repeated what he could remember.

There is also the issue of the cruelty of Allah, who the quran makes out to be an incompetent sadisic monster. The truth about Muhammads actions can be seen in my sig, which is a reputable hadith that shows how barbaric he really was, ordering torture and murders.

As for Muhammad, there is only one message in the quran, and that is obey Muhammad.
It says many times, "obey Allah and the messenger".
I watched the first video you posted, and the speaker seems to have missed that.


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## Dajjal (Nov 25, 2012)

Here is  one verse of many, that says the same thing, "fear God and obey me"
That is the entire and only meaning and purpose of the quran, a book of nonsense, made up to scare Arab bandits into fighting Muhammads battles for him. He uses the fear of God to make people obey him.

Quran sura 3.50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.


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## FckingAmazing (Nov 25, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> FkingAmazing,
> I have read the quran, and I have several English translations of it for comparison. I found the quran poorly written mumbling, repedetive, and without narrative. I have written several pieces about that which I posted in the first few pages of this thread.
> For example, I wrote a piece on sura 12 which makes plain that the story is a half remembered rendition of the bible story which leaves out many essential details that make the story comprehensible. It is obvious Muhammad had the bible read to him then repeated what he could remember.
> 
> ...



yeah man , if the things you wrote seems logical to me  , be sure i would believe in you not the God... 

you are reading Quran like you dont wanna understand it ..  you dont see anny good thing in Quran and Prophet Muhammed .. you just see the thing thats could be interpreted differently .. so i cant help it ..

Pharaoh was knowing that Muhammed was prophet but he said why i 'm not prophet , i'm the richest , i'm the elite ..why he became prophet ..?  Muhammed lived whole life worst than a poor people .. leave these prejudices and searh Quran , Prophet Muhammed .. i suggest to you .. there was lots of people thinks like you than converted islam .. but after they wanted to find God , searching it without any prejudices .. actually whatever i say you will go in your way ... but its my mission to say ..  i'm open minded i give attention all people thoughts becoz i think maybe i'm wrong ..  i suggest you just search pure Quran and Prophet Muhammed also Bible and the other religions ..

but you seems like you've committed to deny Quran so there is nothing to do with you ... for example watch these video this guy american doctor old atheist ... i seggest to learn these people not the from natural muslims .. becoz these people searched all the things you've confused


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## Dajjal (Nov 25, 2012)

FckingAmazing, you said 
" i suggest you just search pure Quran and Prophet Muhammad also Bible and the other religions .."

I have been searching for the truth all my life and I am now a pensioner. As I just said on another thread I abandoned the God of wrath in the bible when I was 16, as I could not believe any kind of God could be that cruel. I went to bible classes until they started talking about hellfire, then I walked out, on the grounds that no God I could respect would do such things to anyone.
I then started going to spiritualist churches, and theosophy (occult) meetings. I also got involved in several guru cults, which I  started a thread about. ( I just bounced it for you to read)
In the end I do think there is a God and he is infinitely great, and totally just. The universe is just one plane that we incarnate in for experience sake. We evolve through many lives, on many different planets, until reaching enlightenment. After which our immortal spirit goes on evolving in higher worlds.

It took me a lifetime to come to these conclusions and so I brought all that experience to my reading of the quran. I soon smelled a rat in the first few pages, and concluded it was not inspired by God. I thought it was going to be spiritual, like the teachings of Jesus, or the Buddha, who's teachings I greatly respect. But it turned out to be a poorly remembered rehash of bible stories, with some Arab myths.
Everything I read after that only confirmed my initial impression that the quran is terrible lies about God ,designed to scare people into obeying Muhammad.

You could do worse than believe what I am saying, because I could save you a lifetime of searching.


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## FckingAmazing (Nov 25, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> FckingAmazing, you said
> " i suggest you just search pure Quran and Prophet Muhammad also Bible and the other religions .."
> 
> I have been searching for the truth all my life and I am now a pensioner. As I just said on another thread I abandoned the God of wrath in the bible when I was 16, as I could not believe any kind of God could be that cruel. I went to bible classes until they started talking about hellfire, then I walked out, on the grounds that no God I could respect would do such things to anyone.
> ...



if you just would not believe Quran its okay ..but you are trying to deny it with all your heart it means you are not just dont believe in Quran you are agains to Quran  as its your job as you are paid for this .. its strange .. this is like your mission in the world to deny Quran .. its really strange .. i dont see in you you are really searching Quran .. its seems you are fighting with Quran .. nevermind everybody have missions to do you are doing your work . i believe Christiany and other holly books from God ..and i believe that people changed them .. if i look Iran that represent islam.. i wouldnot believe islam .. i belive pure islam so its Quran..


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## Dajjal (Dec 3, 2012)

To those new to reading the quran, I recommend reading it from back to front. That is read sura 114 first and work your way back to sura 2. The quran is not compiled chronologically but by the length of ther verses, and the earliest suras are mostly at the back any way, so it makes sense to read it backwards. In any case it is hard to read sura 2 first, as it is lengthy.

So reading backwards, the first sura that has real details you can criticise is sura 111 where Muhammad condemns his own aunt and uncle for not believing in him. I wrote a piece about that at the beginning of this thread.

Then comes sura 105, which is claiming that Allah sent a flock of birds that destroyed the Abyssinian army by dropping clay stones on them. Since no such incident is recorded in history, and since it is totally unrealistic that birds could destroy an army, especially one that probably carried shields, I suggest that sura 105 is the first evidence the quran is bunk, if you read it from the back.
 See the sura for yourselves.

THE ELEPHANT,  SURA NO.  105

105.1  Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant?
105.2  Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray?
105.3  And He sent against them Flights of Birds,
105.4  Striking them with stones of baked clay.
105.5  Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up.


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## PLYMCO_PILGRIM (Dec 3, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



Who wrote the Quaran?  Who wrote the bible?  

Men did....yeah....do I have to say more other than man is not perfect?  Do you really think men transcribed the word of god into books without errors?


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## Dajjal (Dec 3, 2012)

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> Who wrote the Quaran?  Who wrote the bible?
> 
> Men did....yeah....do I have to say more other than man is not perfect?  Do you really think men transcribed the word of god into books without errors?



The quran is supposed to be the words of Muhammad, dictated to him by the angel Gabriel. Muslims claim it is accurate as Muhammads suras were memorized, then written down.

My argument is that it is all lies made up by Muhammad for his own ends, and God had no part in it. Therefore I am dismantling the quran sura by sura to show why it cannot be from God. I am subjecting the quran to literary criticism in the same way that has already been done to the bible by many scholars.

While I am not a scholar I have studied much religion and spiritual teachings, and more recently (since 9/11/01) I have read the quran and applied my experience to a criticism of it.


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## Dajjal (Dec 3, 2012)

The next obvious flaw in the quran, reading it from the back is in sura 96. It says man was created from a clot of blood. That is assuming the English translations I have are accurate. I include all the main translations for comparison. They all talk of a clot of blood except the Khalifa quran, which can be disregarded as fabrication. Khalifa changes many verses to make them more believable to the modern mind.
Quran sura 96:2 

Pickthall- Createth man from a clot.  

Yusuf Ali- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:  

Hilali-Khan- Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).  

Shakir- He created man from a clot.  

Sher Ali- Created man from a clot of blood.  

Khalifa- He created man from an embryo.  

Arberry- created Man of a blood-clot.  

Palmer- Who created man from congealed blood!  

Rodwell- Created man from CLOTS OF BLOOD: -  

Sale- who hath created man of congealed blood. 

Darwood- created man from clots of blood.


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## Avatar4321 (Dec 3, 2012)

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> Who wrote the Quaran?  Who wrote the bible?
> 
> Men did....yeah....do I have to say more other than man is not perfect?  Do you really think men transcribed the word of god into books without errors?



Which is even more a factor when you realize that neither book was ever intended to be written as a book. The Quran was a recitation. It was designed to be spoken, not written. Arabic wasnt even a written language at the time. 

They did start writing them down. But during the reign of the "Rightly" guided Caliphs, there were varient texts going around and they ordered the book compiled and the varients destroyed. This is historical fact.

There is more than enough time for humans to have corrupted the Quran before it was even compiled to a single volume. 

The Bible wasn't meant to be a single volume either. The revelations were written down and then debated and discussed about their accuracy who the revelations were to and whether they were accurate. etc. Some people mistakenly believe they are in chronilogical order when they aren't. And while I dont doubt that God guided the process, I am not of the opinion that He forced people to keep the book free from error. Especially when it never claims to be free from error. (seems to me that if the Bible was to remain free from error, it would be a pretty big error to leave that doctrine out).

The fact that human imperfections may touch the scriptures doesnt take away from the Divine message. As 2 Timothy 3:16 states, the scriptures are given as a tool to bring us to God. They dont need to be exalted in place of God. I fear there are alot of people who make their Bible an idol and miss the invitation to come to Jesus Christ and know Him and the Father.

It's another reason I like the Book of Mormon. Because it doesn't claim perfection. It points out that this is written by men inspired by the Lord who are not perfect and not incorrupt. But instead, go to the Lord and find out from Him whether the doctrines are true.

I know, if I wrote something inspired of God, I would want people to learn from God about it rather than simply relying on what I said. its better to trust the Spirit than the Flesh. Even Flesh as trustworthy as me


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## ima (Dec 3, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> > Who wrote the Quaran?  Who wrote the bible?
> ...


Nice of you to finally admit that all those books are bullshit.


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## Avatar4321 (Dec 3, 2012)

ima said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> ...



I think you need to reread what I wrote. Because I didn't say anything to that effect whatsoever.


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## Dajjal (Dec 5, 2012)

In my reverse order reading of the quran, the next verse that is open to clear criticism is sura 91.
 I have found many bible myths repeated in the quran, and these in themselves are unbelievable, but there are Arab myths too. Unless you believe in magic camels.
According to Arab mythology a man that preceded Muhammad called Salih, said he was a prophet too, and the people did not believe him . So he split a rock and produced a she camel. Then the people of Thamud hamstrung the camel, so Allah destroyed them. The details of this story are absent from the quran but it is mentioned. Like most of the bible references in the quran there are no details or narratives given.

Pickthall translation of the references to Thamud, the she camel.

007:073  And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.

011:064   O my people! This is the camel of Allah, a token unto you, so suffer her to feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with harm lest a near torment seize you.

026:155  He said: (Behold) this she-camel. She hath the right to drink (at the well), and ye have the right to drink, (each) on an appointed day.

Yusuf Ali traslation sura 91

91.11  The Thamud (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrong-doing,

91.12  Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed (for impiety).

91.13  But the Apostle of God said to them: "It is a She-camel of God! And (bar her not from) having her drink!"

91.14  Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their 
Lord, on account of their crime, obliterated their traces and made them equal (in destruction, high and low)!


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## Dajjal (Dec 5, 2012)

sura 86 contains an obvious falsehood.

86.5  Now let man but think from what he is created!

86.6  He is created from a drop emitted-

86.7  Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:


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## newpolitics (Dec 11, 2012)

Dajjal said:


> Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.



One could say the NT is largely copied from the OT, just as you say the Koran is copied from "the bible". All you really have is the "Torah," then, which itself, was copied from near-easter pagan stories, with the exception of it being monolatrist polytheism instead of polytheism.

Not to mention the amount of blatant contradictions in the bible regarding fundamental theological "axioms," hence why there are over 40,000 christian denominations.


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## FckingAmazing (Dec 11, 2012)

Quran is the new version of Bible .. people changed bible .. Quran had been sent .. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVyrZzLnns&list=UUtRmRQ6mLyPFzQTwV8ZNJew&index=4&feature=plcp]Kuranda çeli[/ame]


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## ima (Dec 11, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...


"inspired of god" means any bullshit is acceptable.


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## Dajjal (Dec 12, 2012)

FckingAmazing said:


> Quran is the new version of Bible .. people changed bible .. Quran had been sent ..



The quran says it confirms the previous scriptures, for example at sura 3.3, but in fact the quran does not confirm the bible stories. The quran says that Jesus was not the son of God and it says he was not crucified. But the bible has lengthy accounts of the Crucifixion in all four gospels of the disciples.

So when the quran says at sura 3.3 that it confirms the Torah AND THE GOSPELS, it is wrong.

Quran sura 3.3  It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming 
what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) 
before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment 
between right and wrong).


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## Dajjal (Dec 18, 2012)

Here is a verse which incites hatred against unbelievers.
Quran sura 60.4
Indeed there has been an excellent example for you (muslims) in Ibrahim and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily we are free from you.. and whatever you worship besides Allah: we rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone.


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## Koios (Dec 18, 2012)

> Is the Quran Gods words?



No.  The Prophet Muhammad's words.


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## American_Jihad (Feb 26, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> Here is a verse which incites hatred against unbelievers.
> Quran sura 60.4
> Indeed there has been an excellent example for you (muslims) in Ibrahim and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily we are free from you.. and whatever you worship besides Allah: we rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone.



Dajjal...


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## American_Jihad (Jun 25, 2013)

Its all about Good vs Evil , and make no mistake the quran is the

book of the BEAST. Allah is the beast, muhammad prophet of the beast,

islam religion of the beast , muslims slaves of the evil beast and the fanatical

islamic leaders goal is to unite the world under islam and take it back to the

7Th century where the beast took control of muhammad's soul and islam was

born.


http://aina.org/martyr.htm

Assyrian International News Agency

~~ |~~ Is Islam Violent?* ~~

Koran-The Ultimate Truth

MEMRITV - The Middle East Media Research Institute


*Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace*

"Mohammed is God's apostle.  Those who follow him are harsh
 to the unbelievers but merciful to one another"  Quran 48:29​
2013.06.25 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Two children and eight women are shredded by a bomb planted by Sunni fundamentalists.

2013.06.24 (Tikrit, Iraq) - Students are among the casualties when a Shahid suicide bomber detonates inside a university parking garage. 

2013.06.24 (Jihad, Iraq) - al-Qaeda bombers take out nine residents of a Shia neighborhood. 

2013.06.24 (Husseiniya, Iraq) - Two bombs placed at a Shiite market send eight patrons to Allah. 

2013.06.23 (Idlib, Syria) - A Catholic monk is reportedly murdered by Islamists. 

2013.06.23 (Zawiyat, Egypt) - Sunni hardliners throw petrol bombs into a house with Shia residents, burning and then stabbing and beating at least four to death. 

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time


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## flowery (Jun 26, 2013)

.​ 
In this board ,, I wrote before ,, most members just depend on MEDIA , TV NEWS and NEWSPAPER as a source to get information 

these are the IGNORANT S way

I really feel sorry for you


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## Dajjal (Jun 26, 2013)

flowery said:


> .​
> In this board ,, I wrote before ,, most members just depend on MEDIA , TV NEWS and NEWSPAPER as a source to get information
> 
> these are the IGNORANT S way
> ...



I get my information direct from the quran and hadiths, and it is clear to me that God had nothing to do with them.


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## American_Jihad (Jun 27, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > .​
> ...



You got that right, it was the beast...


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## HUGGY (Jun 27, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.



Then you should have asked if the babble were god's word and killed two birds with one stone.


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## Avatar4321 (Jun 27, 2013)

ima said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



Even if your sentence was true, it doesn't change the fact that I didnt admit anything you are claiming.


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

.​

why don't you look at the * The Scientific Miracles *in the Qur'an to decide whether it is God word or not ??


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW8aPcobIZA]100% proof the Qur'an is The Word of God. - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

flowery said:


> .​
> 
> why don't you look at the *Miracles *in the Qur'an to decide whether it is God word or not ??



There are no miracles in the quran. Jesus did miracles, Muhammad did not.

The quran says the sun orbits the earth.


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOYpjZywUPA]christian scientist confirm Quran is true! - YouTube[/ame]


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

.
.
​
In this website :

Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar


.
.
​
you will read miracles :

A-In the Glorious Qur'an
	Universe
	Earth
	Plant
	Animals
	Human Beings
	Historical
	Legislative
	Educational
	Medical
	Understanding Islam
	Embracing Islam
	Signs of the Greatness of Allah
	Prophets of Islam
	Miscellaneous
	Questions &Answers
	New Muslims
B- In the Sunnah
	Universe
	Earth
	Plant
	Animals
	Human Beings
	Historical
	Legislative
	Educational
	Medical
	Understanding Islam
	Embracing Islam
	Signs of the Greatness of Allah
	Prophets of Islam
	Miscellaneous
	Questions &Answers


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

The Scientific Miracles of the Holy Quran

Category: The Scientific Miracles of the Holy Quran - The Religion of Islam


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

.

.

The Scientific Miracles of the Qur'an


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

Flowery, In answer to the first video you posted today ,here is a piece I wrote on the embryo in the Quran.

Quran sura 22.5 O Mankind! if ye have a doubt about the resurrection (consider) that we created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out  of a leech like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh partly formed and partly unformed, in order that we may manifest (our power) to you. And we cause whom we will to rest in the wombs for an appropriate term. Then do we bring you out as babes, then (foster you) That ye may reach your age of full strength; Translated By Yusuf Ali.

Anyone who believes this brief verse in the quran referring to the embryo is a revelation from God should study the writings of Galen. He was born in AD129 and his writings are a truly staggering insight into the workings of the human body for such a time. He discusses the function of the womb and the uterus, and the development of the embryo and foetus. Most of his knowledge came from observation and the dissection of animals, and most of his false assumptions doubtlessly come from the fact he did not dissect human bodies.
His works were originally written in Greek, but were translated into Latin and Arabic. Such knowledge was in the world 500 years before Muhammad's time, and Hippocrates made astounding medical observations one thousand years before Muhammad. Since sura 22 was reputedlty revealed in Madinah, or during the later Makkan period Muhammad had already spent ten years or more aquiring the spoils of War, and it is known that books were highly prised items, so knowledge of Galen's writings could have been acquired from looted manuscripts. 

Here are some brief extracts from Galens, On the natural faculties, book3. These texts being rich in detailed factual observations.

"For, as we know it takes nine months in most women for the foetus to attain maturity in the womb, this organ having its neck quite closed, and entirely surrounding the embryo together with the chorion."

The following quote shows Galen fully understood the role of sex in the reproductive process.

"The women believe they have received the semen which comes from the male, and they are retaining it."

Finally Galen shows that Hippocrates(c 460-c370 BC) before him was aware of details of pregnancy 500 years earlier.

"Hippocrates, who was the first of all physicians and philosophers to declare that the os uteri closes during pregnancy and inflammation."

Predating this detailed Greek scientific knowledge formed from observation and dissection of near human animals, the bible itself shows knowledge of the womb and conception.

The word womb appears 71 times in the King James Bible. Here are some pertinent extracts.

OT  Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

OT Hosea 9:14 Give them, O Lord; what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

NT Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

NT Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. 

Here is one of many verses that states man was formed from dust.
OT Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the Ground,
The bible also talks of the seed of copulation at Leviticus 15:16 and 15:17 and 15:18. So there is no revelation in using the word sperm, and in fact other English translations, such as Pickthall use the word seed, not sperm, so the exact translation of the Arabic word makes no difference to the implication that such knowledge was in the world. 
In short there is no new information in the quran concerning the birth process, unless one claims that the mention of a leech like clot of blood is a revelation that describes a new embryo. But for a man who had eleven wives, and was fully aware of the links between menstrual blood, and the lack of it during pregnancy, it only took one miscarriage for him to see a tiny foetus for himself. Therefore verse 22.5 of the quran did not require any revelation from God, as Muhammad could have been well aware of most of what is involved in the natural process of gestation.


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

Flowery, you are spamming me with stuff you did not write. Why not do your own thinking, and your own writing, like I did. Here is a piece I wrote that proves the quran says the sun orbits the earth, this proves the so called science in the quran is bunk.

when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421: 
Narrated Abu Dhar: 

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38) 

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. The hadith is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth, and it is a fuller explanation of verse 36.38 in the quran.


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > .​
> ...



Oh my god
Who said that ???

How come you judge this book and you don't even read it !!!
Here you are prove to me once again that some members rely on MEDIA , television and newspapers as key sources of knowledge


You are challenging scientists and that  does not make sense
Non-Muslim scholars themselves have proven that the Qur'an is the word of the Lord

You are absolutely unfair and does not even think neutrally
biased
and this is not good at all

Read that websites and watch those videos , I don't want you to convert to Islam, I just want you to be FAIR when you want to talk about others religion because this is a good for your credibility


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU]* [Holy] Quran : Top Scientists Comments on Scientific Miracles in the Quran * # Faith and Science # - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

flowery said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



I have read the Quran, in fact I have three English translations that I compare for accuracy.
I have also read a number of hadiths, and my last post shows that a hadith clearly says the sun orbits the earth, and that is what is meant by the quran, verse 36.38


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

I am not spamming , I just post my replies before I notice your replies
I don't want to write any thing in my word, because you don't trust me, so you won't relive my ,, so I decided to show you others opinion  , who you may trust like scientists opinions


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

flowery said:


> I am not spamming , I just post my replies before I notice your replies
> I don't want to write any thing in my word, because you don't trust me, so you won't relive my ,, so I decided to show you others opinion  , who you may trust like scientists opinions



I trust my own experience of spiritual matters, and not some so called scientist.

According to the quran I will burn in eternal hellire, because I reject Allah and the day of judgement. But I am not afraid because I know in my heart that God will not burn anyone.
I have faith in a God far greater than the monster the Quran describes, and I would never worship a God that did burn people. The following quote says it far better than I can.



"I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain. I would rather that every god would destroy himself; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony". 

Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-99):


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

The Hadith doesn't say the sun orbits the earth at all ,,

it describes something we can see ,, you by yourself always say : sunrise and sunset !!!!
does this mean the sun rise or it set !! absolutely not ,, but it bear to us that it does 

so
bring me evidence that the Qur'an said sun orbits the earth ???


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

and by the way
the Hadith that you put in your signature is not completed 
Those men that was killed were murderer , they killed people and steal their money

You should know that the honest  man should has the credibility and clarify all aspects of every thing that he put

How can I believe a person has no credibility and always believe himself and don't care about scientist and their researches  ???


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> I have read the Quran, in fact I have three English translations that I compare for accuracy.



OK ,, Now I got it ,, you read the Qur'an in YOUR own English translation 
Surely you will MISS understand this book


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

flowery said:


> The Hadith doesn't say the sun orbits the earth at all ,,
> 
> it describes something we can see ,, you by yourself always say : sunrise and sunset !!!!
> does this mean the sun rise or it set !! absolutely not ,, but it bear to us that it does
> ...



Try reading the Hadith with an open mind and consider the logic of my interpretation , and I think you will see it does say the sun orbits the earth.

The quran says the sun and the moon each have an orbit, at a number of places, as it says in my post above.


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## flowery (Jun 30, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> His works were originally written in Greek, but were translated into Latin and Arabic. Such knowledge was in the world 500 years before Muhammad's time, .




If you want to know the reply to this post
watch this to the end:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcFIQgdFXEY]One of the Miracles of the Quran explained by Yusuf Estes - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

flowery said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > I have read the Quran, in fact I have three English translations that I compare for accuracy.
> ...



Yes, I cannot read Arabic scribble, but I have access to a large number of translations and I believe I can get a very good idea of what the quran is actually saying by comparing them. Here are all the tranlations I have of verse 36.38

Ya Sin 36:38 
Muhammad Asad -  And [they have a sign in] the sun: it runs in an orbit of its own [and] that is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing;   

M. M. Pickthall -  And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.   

Shakir -  And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.   

Yusuf Ali- (Saudi Rev. 1985)   And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.   

Yusuf Ali -(Orig. 1938)   And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.   

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar -  And the sun runs to a resting place for it. That is foreordained by The Almighty, The Knowing.    

Wahiduddin Khan-   The sun, too, follows its determined course laid down for it by the Almighty, the All Knowing.   

T.B.Irving -  The sun runs along on a course of its own. Such is the design of the Powerful, the Aware!    

[Al-Muntakhab] -  And the sun runs its course and describes its orbit, sited in a settled position, belonging, as determined by AL-Aziz, AL-'Alim.   

[Progressive Muslims]   And the sun runs to a specific destination, such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.   

Abdel Haleem -  The sun, too, runs its determined course laid down for it by the Almighty, the All Knowing.   

Abdul Majid Daryabadi-   And the sun runneth to its appointed term: that is the disposition of the Mighty, the Knowing."   

Ahmed Ali -  While the sun keeps revolving in its orbit. This is the dispensation of the mighty, all-knowing (God).   

Aisha Bewley-   And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.    

Ali Ünal -  And the sun runs the course appointed for it for a term to its resting-place for the stability of it(s system). This is the measured determining of the All-Glorious with irresistible might (to Whose omnipotent ordering the whole universe is submitted), the All-Knowing.   

Ali Quli Qara'i -  And the sun runs on to its place of rest: That is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.   

Amatul Rahman Omar-   And the sun is moving (on its ordained course) towards the goal determined for it. That is the determining of the 
All-Mighty, the Possessor of perfect knowledge.   

Hamid S. Aziz -  And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.   

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali-   And the sun runs to a repository for it; that is the determining of The Ever-Mighty, the Ever-Knowing.   

Muhammad Sarwar -  how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;   

Muhammad Taqi Usmani -  And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.   
Shabbir Ahmed-   And the sun: it runs its appointed course. That is the measure of the Almighty, the Knower. 

Syed Vickar Ahamed-   And the sun moves along its way for a (length of) time set for him: That is the order of (Allah), the Almighty (Al-Aziz), the All Knowing (Al-Aleem).   

Umm Muhammad- (Sahih International)   And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.   

Farook Malik-   The sun runs its course, this course is predetermined for it by the Almighty, the All-Knowing.   

Dr. Munir Munshey-   The sun proceeds towards its marked destination. This is the destiny appointed by the Mightiest and the most Knowledgeable!   

Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad-   And the sun is always rotating (non-stop) for its appointed destination. It is a measure fixed by Almighty, All-Knowing (Lord).   

Dr. Kamal Omar -  And the sun moves for the fixed course assigned for it. That is the Decree and Assessment of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing .   

Bilal Muhammad -(2013 Edition)   And the Sun runs its course for a period determined for it. That is His decree, the Exalted in Might, the All Knowing.    

Maududi -  The sun is running its course to its appointed place. That is the ordaining of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.   

Bijan Moeinian-   Another sign of [the existence and the greatness of] God is the sun [as big as 1,earth] which God makes it move toward its [final] destiny.   

Faridul Haque -  And the sun runs its course for its final destination; this is a command of the Almighty, the All Knowing.   

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah -  The sun runs to its fixed restingplace; that is the decree of the Almighty, the Knower.   

Maulana Muhammad Ali -  And the sun moves on to its destination. That is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knower.   

Muhammad Ahmed  Samira-   And the sun passes/orbits to an establishment/affixation to it, that (is) the glorious'/mighty's predestination/evaluation .   

Sher Ali -  And the sun is moving on to its determined goal. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing God.   

Rashad Khalifa -  The sun sets into a specific location, according to the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.    

Hilali & Khan  - And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.   

Arthur John Arberry-   And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.   

Edward Henry Palmer-   and the sun runs on to a place of rest for it; that is the ordinance of the mighty, the wise.   

George Sale-   And the sun hasteneth to his place of rest. This is the disposition of the mighty, the wise God.   

John Medows Rodwell-   And the Sun hasteneth to her place of rest. This, the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing!   

N J Dawood -(draft)   The sun hastens to its resting&#8211;place: its course is laid for it by the Mighty One, the All&#8211;knowing.   

Sayyid Qutb - The sun also runs its set course: that is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.    

Maariful-And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its resting place. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.


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## Dajjal (Jun 30, 2013)

flowery said:


> and by the way
> the Hadith that you put in your signature is not completed
> Those men that was killed were murderer , they killed people and steal their money



It does not make any difference what these men had done, what matters is that a so called prophet of God ordered such a merciless and terrible punishment on them.
It shows Muhammads true nature, and completely contrasts with the merciful teachings of Jesus.


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## Agit8r (Jul 2, 2013)

Obviously no text that commands violence against others could be a proper moral guide, let alone the words of a morally perfect deity.

The rule of thumb should always be that if a "God" doesn't surpass the level of morality commonly displayed by faithless humans, then the "God" cannot be worth following.  Unfortunately, none of the barbarian mythologies from the Middle East even come close to equaling this measurement.


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## PratchettFan (Jul 2, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



I would agree, but not for the reasons you gave.  If you are reading a book, you are reading people's words.  It doesn't matter what the book is.


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## American_Jihad (Jul 31, 2013)

*Divided Egypt Puts Christians in the Crosshairs*

July 31, 2013 By Frontpagemag.com 

Videos

...

Divided Egypt Puts Christians in the Crosshairs | FrontPage Magazine


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## American_Jihad (Aug 21, 2013)

THE HISTORY OF MECCA


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## Dajjal (Nov 4, 2013)

In the current climate of the board ,I want to bring back the question, Is the quran Gods words? There appear to be a number of Muslim apologists who support Islam, along side the Muslim posters, and I am curious to know why they would bother, unless they think Islam is a valid belief.


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## MHunterB (Nov 4, 2013)

Once ANYTHING is written down or recited in a human language, it's no longer purely GOD's Word.

I hold the Qu'ran no more or less a divine revelation than any other Scripture including the one I follow.   To each their own......
 All I'm interested in is, how do its followers understandings of it prompt them to deal with life, particularly in how to treat 'others'?   There are already far too many humans on the planet whose view of another is diminished by that other's not following the same exact understanding of the same exact Scripture.


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## Bowman (Nov 26, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...




We can gain a significant understanding of what the Koran really is by simply defining the term itself. 



Let's review the premise...


&#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1585;&#1569;&#1575;&#1606; = &#8220;alqur-ana&#8221;

&#8220;alqur-ana&#8221; definition:

Proper noun.  *Originally meaning the Collection; &#8220;I collected together the thing&#8221;* or &#8220;I read, or recited, the book or scripture&#8221;; *and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Muhammad*; *it also signifies the Revelation*, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes.  *A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.* 

&#1602;&#1585;&#1569;&#1575;&#1606; is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, *and the verses or signs, and the chapters*.

It comes from the root &#8220;qara&#8217;a&#8221;, *which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion*.  He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504 
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur&#8217;an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449



The classic Arabic definition is really quite revealing.

We have the following proclaimed regarding the original meaning applied to the Koran:

*&#8226;	It&#8217;s a collection
&#8226;	A collection of books or scriptures*

Whether this collection is read or recited, it still suggests that it emanates from a collected repository of things already written down.

It was only later that the meaning changed to signify the Book of God that was revealed to &#8220;Muhammad&#8221;&#8230;and we already understand that the &#8220;Muhammad&#8221; spoken of in the Koran is  actually the Biblical Jesus Christ.

*Thus, the Koran is Jesus&#8217; book!*

This would account for the scores of suras that are titled after Him, and revolve around Him.

&#8220;Alqur-ana&#8221; also means Revelation &#8211; which is most appropriate, as >75% of the Koran is directly copied from the Book of Revelation.

The root &#8220;qara&#8217;a&#8221; takes us one step deeper with the primary definition &#8220;he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion."  

This gives us great insight as to why the Koran was written in the fashion that it was &#8211; as the authors who pieced it together and performed the translation, actually did so piecemeal.  These pieces, taken in large part from the Book of Revelation, are actually the paraphrased Arabic counterparts to the Holy Bible, known as suras.


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## WillReadmore (Nov 26, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> In the current climate of the board ,I want to bring back the question, Is the quran Gods words? There appear to be a number of Muslim apologists who support Islam, along side the Muslim posters, and I am curious to know why they would bother, unless they think Islam is a valid belief.


I really don't understand your point in all this.  It wasn't the purpose of the Bible or the Qur'an to correct people's understanding of our solar system.

All our ancient texts were written at a time of our ancient understanding.  Plus, they all include metaphor and other mechanisms to impart that which is not physical in nature.  Does the statement that God literally created Adam from a ball of dirt invalidate the Bible?  Of course not.  Does Christianity depend on whether the Flood was world wide?  Of course not. 

The idea of the Qur'an being a theft is especially nonsensical, as it was believed from the beginning that the God of the bible was the same God as that of Islam.

The Qur'an states that members of each of these faiths are headed for the same heaven.

It seems to me we would be FAR better off today in recognizing and building on our shared fundamentals, rather than making accusations of theft.


----------



## Katzndogz (Nov 26, 2013)

No.

The Bible says nothing will follow.


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## Bowman (Nov 26, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> I really don't understand your point in all this.  It wasn't the purpose of the Bible or the Qur'an to correct people's understanding of our solar system.
> 
> All our ancient texts were written at a time of our ancient understanding.  Plus, they all include metaphor and other mechanisms to impart that which is not physical in nature.  Does the statement that God literally created Adam from a ball of dirt invalidate the Bible?  Of course not.  Does Christianity depend on whether the Flood was world wide?  Of course not.
> 
> The idea of the Qur'an being a theft is especially nonsensical, as* it was believed from the beginning that the God of the bible was the same God as that of Islam*.



The God of the Bible is NOT the god of islam.

Muslims worship the 'allah' as described in their Koran - which is Satan...







> The Qur'an states that members of each of these faiths are headed for the same heaven.


 
No.

The Koranic Heaven was copied from that of the Holy Bible, of which, entrance is gained only through faith in The Son as God, and the Trinity.

Islam rejects this entirely...





> It seems to me we would be FAR better off today in recognizing and building on our shared fundamentals, rather than making accusations of theft.



Islam is the world's largest Christian cult.

We can gain insight into what went wrong with the Islamic interpretation of their scriptures by acknowledging that the Koran was improperly copied from its source, the Holy Bible...


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## WillReadmore (Nov 26, 2013)

Bowman said:


> The God of the Bible is NOT the god of islam.
> 
> Muslims worship the 'allah' as described in their Koran - which is Satan...
> 
> ...


I know there are differences, and that many Christians believe all Jews and Muslims, even the most upright and devout members, are going to hell.

However, it really is total nonsense to state that Islam worships Satan.

And, of COURSE the notions of heaven are essentially the same.


----------



## Chuckt (Nov 26, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> Bowman said:
> 
> 
> > The God of the Bible is NOT the god of islam.
> ...



Essentially the same? Have you read:

A COMPARISON BETWEEN MUHAMMED AND JESUS CHRIST 
 By George Zeller and Steve Van Nattan

A Comparison Between Mohammed and Jesus Christ


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## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> However, it really is total nonsense to state that Islam worships Satan.



Most Muslims sincerely believe that they worship the same God as that described in the pages of the Holy Bible.  On the surface, and to the uninformed, this may appear to be the case, however, upon careful investigation; nothing could be farther from the truth.

The authors who penned the Koranic text tell us who allah really is, and he is definitely not the God of the Bible.  

Not even close.

Word etymology is the basic first-premise and first-defense against Islamic ignorance  and there is absolutely no link of the Koranic allah to that of Yahweh.

In fact, the term allah shares the same exact root word as that of pagan Arab idol worshipers.

We must remember that the Koranic god allah can never be equated to the true God of the Holy Bible.

You keep thinking that the two are the same.

They are not.and it is pure blaspheme to claim that they are.


Just remember Triple A

Satan, the Devil, the great serpent, the destroyer, the deceiver, the liarin Hebrew, Abaddon.in Greek, Apollynand, in Arabic, Allah.







> And, of COURSE the notions of heaven are essentially the same.



Islam's notion of Heaven is a grossly twisted version of what originated from its source, the Holy Bible.

*Islam  =  The Big Lie.*


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## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> The authors who penned the Koranic text tell us who allah really is, and he is definitely not the God of the Bible.
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> ...


There is only one author of the Qu'ran.

It states clearly that there is one God, shared with Jews and Christians.  The characteristics of this god are those of the god described in the Bible.  Even today, the Bible is revered by Islam, the primary difference in interpretation being that Jesus is seen as a major prophet rather than as the son of God - something Christians are required to believe in order to go to heaven.

Suggesting that the devil is their god is supported by nothing and is preposterous.


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> There is only one author of the Qu'ran.



The Koran never once claims to be divinely inspired - thus, we should not expect that it is....it does, however, claim to be a fabrication of previous scripture.






> It states clearly that there is one God, shared with Jews and Christians.



Not the same true God as Christians.






> The characteristics of this god are those of the god described in the Bible.



The god 'allah' described within the pages of the Koran is merely a pagan Arab god dressed-up to look like the True Biblical Creator God, Jesus Christ.

Stealing His attributes won't fool anyone...






> Even today, the Bible is revered by Islam,



Muslims are incorrectly taught that the Bible is corrupt and cannot be trusted...which is completely unsupported by their Koran...






> the primary difference in interpretation being that Jesus is seen as a major prophet rather than as the son of God - something Christians are required to believe in order to go to heaven.



The Koran maintains that Jesus is The Son.

Islam has once again mis-interpreted the text...






> Suggesting that the devil is their god is supported by nothing and is preposterous.



The Arabic mandates that he is...


----------



## hangover (Nov 27, 2013)

> Is the Quran Gods words?


Every page of every religious book, is men speaking for God. Not one word is from God himself, if it was Gods words, it would at least blind the reader, if not kill the reader.

God has never spoken to me. And those that say God has spoken to them, are certified nut jobs. Jim Jones, Pat Robertson, David Koresh, Reverend Moon, Jerry Falwell. Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Moses, Noah, and many others were before my time, but if they're anything like the ones in my day...Sheesh! God is so mind boggling, it just makes seekers go off the reservation. Been there, done that....but still seeking.


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## hangover (Nov 27, 2013)

> Not the same true God as Christians.


See what I mean about going off the reservation? The Muslims, Christians and Jews ALL worship the God of Abraham!

*IT'S THE SAME GOD!!!!!!!*


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

hangover said:


> > Not the same true God as Christians.
> 
> 
> See what I mean about going off the reservation? The Muslims, Christians and Jews ALL worship the God of Abraham!
> ...



No..

Neither Jews nor Muslims have The Son.

He who has The Son has eternal life; he who does not have The Son does not have eternal life.

Jews and Muslims deny The God of the Holy Bible - therefore they do not have eternal life and they worship a lower-case god...


----------



## hangover (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> hangover said:
> 
> 
> > > Not the same true God as Christians.
> ...



Get off God's throne, you don't qualify. "Judge not, and be not judged." Judge and condemn yourself with ignorance.


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

hangover said:


> Get off God's throne, you don't qualify. "Judge not, and be not judged." Judge and condemn yourself with ignorance.



A standard cliché' used amongst scriptural ignorants...


----------



## hangover (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> hangover said:
> 
> 
> > Get off God's throne, you don't qualify. "Judge not, and be not judged." Judge and condemn yourself with ignorance.
> ...



^^^^^^^The self righteous just never quit.


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

hangover said:


> ^^^^^^^The self righteous just never quit.



Scripture is the authority.


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## The Irish Ram (Nov 27, 2013)

hangover said:


> > Is the Quran Gods words?
> 
> 
> Every page of every religious book, is men speaking for God. Not one word is from God himself, if it was Gods words, it would at least blind the reader, if not kill the reader.
> ...



Been reading the word of God for years, and my eyesight is fine.   Where did you come up the the blinding killing part?


----------



## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

From the beginning, Muhammad believed the revelations he received over a period of 22 years (resulting in the Qur'an) were from the God of the Jews and Christians through the angel Gabriel.

Certainly there are religious differences between each of the three main Abrahamic religions.  While they each revere Jesus, only one of them sees Jesus as being more than human, for example.


----------



## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> From the beginning, Muhammad believed the revelations he received over a period of 22 years (resulting in the Qur'an) were from the God of the Jews and Christians through the angel Gabriel.
> 
> Certainly there are religious differences between each of the three main Abrahamic religions.  While they each revere Jesus, only one of them sees Jesus as being more than human, for example.



It is my view that Muhammad lied, and got no message from anyone. For one thing in the bible the angel Gabriel only comes to tell people of the coming of John the baptist, and then the coming of Jesus. Gabriel gave no messages from God other than those. Muhammad also makes the mistake of thinking Gabriel was the holy spirit.


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> From the beginning, Muhammad believed the revelations he received over a period of 22 years (resulting in the Qur'an)



No one named 'Muhammad' had anything at all to do with the Koran, according to the Koran, itself...





> were from the God of the Jews and Christians through the angel Gabriel.


 
No mention that an angel named 'Gabriel' was the mediator, either.

All Islamic myth.

In fact, the only ayat which Muslims can produce for this Islamic assertion actually pertain to John...






> Certainly there are religious differences between each of the three main Abrahamic religions.  While they each revere Jesus, only one of them sees Jesus as being more than human, for example.



The intriguing thing is that the sacred scriptures for all three of the big monotheistic religions plainly inform the reader that God is Triune and that The Son is God....only orthodox Trinitarian Christians have correctly interpreted their scripture set...


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> It is my view that Muhammad lied, and got no message from anyone. For one thing in the bible the angel Gabriel only comes to tell people of the coming of John the baptist, and then the coming of Jesus. Gabriel gave no messages from God other than those. Muhammad also makes the mistake of thinking Gabriel was the holy spirit.



Simply more misinterpretation of scripture....Muslims incorrectly align the archangel Gabriel as the Holy Spirit...same as Jehovah Witnesses misalign the archangel Michael as Jesus...


----------



## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> ...


Well, the Arabic spelling would be &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1585;&#1570;&#1606;.  The final "a" in your pronunciation would be there only if the name was being used in the accusative, as the final vowel of a noun is a part of speech marker.

It takes no time at all in reading this work in any language to note that it certainly is not a copy of the book of Revelations of the New Testament.  The aspect of "collection" that some see in the etymology of the word is more likely a reference to the fact that the revelations occurred in events over a period of 22 years of Muhammad's life.  These were collected and compiled into the final single work.

On the other hand, if you look in a dictionary of Arabic you find that the root from which this word is derived (&#1602;&#1585;&#1571 doesn't give rise to words meaning to collect.  Rather it gives rise to words meaning to read or to teach or to prophesy (form X).  This is also from the first revelation wherein one is exhorted to read (using this root) - considered to mean to read (and thus learn) for ones self.  Devout Muslims I know see this exhortation for individuals to read as the key to the meaning.  Islam didn't have religious hierarchy such as popes and bishops that individuals should follow without reading, although now we see hierarchy in Iran, for example.


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> Well, the Arabic spelling would be &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1585;&#1570;&#1606;.  The final "a" in your pronunciation would be there only if the name was being used in the accusative, as the final vowel of a noun is a part of speech marker



You are googling your answer from a modern Arabic website...





> It takes no time at all in reading this work in any language to note that it certainly is not a copy of the book of Revelations of the New Testament.



>75% of the Koran was paraphrased from the Biblical book of Revelation.

The Koranic concepts of Heaven and Hell come from Revelation....







> The aspect of "collection" that some see in the etymology of the word is more likely a reference to the fact that the revelations occurred in events over a period of 22 years of Muhammad's life.  These were collected and compiled into the final single work.



The term 'Muhammad' was not even a proper name at the time that the Koran was written....it was a participle...and it applies to the Biblical Jesus Christ in the four times that it makes its appearance in the Koran.

You are making the classic mistake of combining the true Koranic 'Muhammad' with the fictitious islamic 'muhammad'...






> On the other hand, if you look in a dictionary of Arabic you find that the root from which this word is derived (&#1602;&#1585;&#1571 doesn't give rise to words meaning to collect.  Rather it gives rise to words meaning to read or to teach or to prophesy (form X).  This is also from the first revelation wherein one is exhorted to read (using this root) - considered to mean to read (and thus learn) for ones self.  Devout Muslims I know see this exhortation for individuals to read as the key to the meaning.  Islam didn't have religious hierarchy such as popes and bishops that individuals should follow without reading, although now we see hierarchy in Iran, for example.



More modern Arabic definitions for the extinct Koranic Arabic...


----------



## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> WillReadmore said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the Arabic spelling would be &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1585;&#1570;&#1606;.  The final "a" in your pronunciation would be there only if the name was being used in the accusative, as the final vowel of a noun is a part of speech marker
> ...


It is common for Arabs to use ordinary words as names.  One of the challenges for beginning students of Arabic is that of detecting whether a word is a name, as there isn't a marker (such as we use capitalization) to note the difference.  So, one must know grammar and some naming conventions.  One can look up the word muhammad in the dictionary, but that is true for a significant percent of Arabic names.

Written Arabic has remained remarkably unchanged.  The importance of the Qur'an undoubtedly has been a significant influence in that.  There was no chance of that with the Bible, given the various languages in which it was written - even at times using alphabets of one language to write in another language, plus the various decisions on what writings constitute the Bible.  Even today we see the Bible change with its plethora of versions to track language change.

And, no, I haven't used google in any of this.


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## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> It is my view that Muhammad lied, and got no message from anyone. For one thing in the bible the angel Gabriel only comes to tell people of the coming of John the baptist, and then the coming of Jesus. Gabriel gave no messages from God other than those. Muhammad also makes the mistake of thinking Gabriel was the holy spirit.


The revelations to Muhammad came hundreds of years after Jesus.

So, it's obvious that the writings by contemporaries of Jesus would not mention revelations to Muhammad.

I'm a little surprised that you would worry about Gabriel given the difference in view of who Jesus was!

The one that is more shocking to me is the Christian principle that billions of Muslim and Jewish souls are damned to eternal hell regardless of how devout and upright they were on earth in their worship of the same God.


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> It is common for Arabs to use ordinary words as names.  One of the challenges for beginning students of Arabic is that of detecting whether a word is a name, as there isn't a marker (such as we use capitalization) to note the difference.  So, one must know grammar and some naming conventions.  One can look up the word muhammad in the dictionary, but that is true for a significant percent of Arabic names.




&#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; = muhammad

muhammad definition:

*Passive participle*.  *A man praised much*, or repeatedly, or time after time; endowed with many praiseworthy qualities.  *Praised one*.  

It comes from the root hamida (ha-miim-dal), which means he praised, eulogized, or commended him; spoke well of him; mentioned him with approbation; sometimes because of favor received.  Also implies admiration; and it implies the magnifying, or honoring, of the object thereof; and lowliness, humility, or submissiveness, in the person who offers it.  *He declared the praises of God or he praised God much with good forms of praise*.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 638  640
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 135 - 136
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 38
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 56


Occurrences of muhammad in the Koran: 4
Locations:  *3.144, 33.40, 47.2, 48.29*

Occurrences of the root hamida and its sixteen derivatives in the Koran: 68
Locations:  1.2, 2.30, 2.267, 3.144, 3.188, 4.131, 6.1, 6.45, 7.43, 9.112, 10.10, 11.73, 13.13, 14.1, 14.8, 14.39, 15.98, 16.75, 17.44, 17.52, 17.79, 17.111, 18.1, 20.130, 22.24, 22.64, 23.28, 25.58, 27.15, 27.59, 27.93, 28.70, 29.63, 30.18, 31.12, 31.25, 31.26, 32.15, 33.40, 34.1(2x), 34.6, 35.1, 35.15, 35.34, 37.182, 39.29, 39.74, 39.75(2x), 40.7, 40.55, 40.65, 41.42, 42.5, 42.28, 45.36, 47.2, 48.29, 50.39, 52.48, 57.24, 60.6, 61.6, 64.1, 64.6, 85.8, 110.3    

Observe the Koranic usages

	1.2the praise belonging to allah
	2.30praise to the lord
	2.267allah is praiseworthy
	*3.144a MAN praised much  praised one*
	3.188they are praised  painful torture
	4.131praise to allah
	6.1the praise belonging to allah
	6.45and the praise belonging to allah, lord
	7.43the praise belonging to allah
	9.112the praise to allah
	10.10the praise belonging to allah
	11.73allah is praiseworthy
	13.13on account of the praise, allah
	14.1the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	14.8allah is praiseworthy
	14.39the praise belonging to allah
	15.98lords praise
	16.75the praise belonging to allah
	17.44on account of his praise, allah, lord
	17.52on account of his praise, lord
	17.79lord praised
	17.111the praise belonging to allah
	18.1the praise belonging to allah
	20.130lords praise
	22.24the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	22.64the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	23.28the praise belonging to allah
	25.58on account of lords praise
	27.15the praise belonging to allah
	27.59the praise belonging to allah
	27.93the praise belonging to allah
	28.70the praise to allah
	29.63the praise belonging to allah
	30.18the praise, allah
	31.12allah is praiseworthy
	31.25the praise belonging to allah
	31.26the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	32.15lords praise
	*33.40a MAN praised much  praised one*
	34.1the praise belonging to allah(2x)
	34.6the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	35.1the praise belonging to allah
	35.15the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	35.34the praise belonging to allah
	37.182and the praise belonging to allah, lord
	39.29the praise belonging to allah
	39.74the praise belonging to allah
	39.75the praise belonging to allah
	39.75lords praise
	40.7lords praise
	40.55lords praise
	40.65the praise belonging to allah
	41.42praiseworthy, lord
	42.5lords praise
	42.28the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	45.36the praise belonging to allah
	*47.2a MAN praised much  praised one*
	*48.29a MAN praised much  praised one*
	50.39lords praise
	52.48lords praise
	57.24the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	60.6the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	*61.6a MAN praised*
	64.1the praise belonging to allah
	64.6allah is praiseworthy
	85.8the praiseworthy  one of the names of allah
	110.3lords praise



Summarizing this data, we have the following premises upon which to build our understanding of the Koranic Muhammad:

*	The word itself is not a proper name
	The word is a participlei.e. it combines the functions of both adjective and verb
	It applies to one man
	This man is praised
	He is the only man praised
	The root hamida, from which Muhammad is derived, refers to the praising of God
	Surveying all 68 Koranic occurrences of the root hamida and its sixteen derivatives, demonstrates the overwhelming usage in direct relation to Koranic deity (i.e. allah, lord)
	The only Koranic instance of a derivative not pertaining to deity is in 3.188 -  in which people are tortured for accepting praises  thus, reserving praise for deity only
	This leaves us with 5 ayahs that appear to buck the trend
	All 5 of these ayahs refer to a man
	All 5 ayahs refer to a man that is praised*


*The Koranic 'Muhammad' refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ.*





> *Written Arabic has remained remarkably unchanged*.  The importance of the Qur'an undoubtedly has been a significant influence in that.  There was no chance of that with the Bible, given the various languages in which it was written - even at times using alphabets of one language to write in another language, plus the various decisions on what writings constitute the Bible.  Even today we see the Bible change with its plethora of versions to track language change.



Entirely incorrect.

Observe these interesting comments by Lane



> Every language without a written literature tends to decay more than to development by reason of foreign influences; *and the history of the Arabic exhibits an instance of decay remarkably rapid, and extraordinary in degree*.  An immediate consequence of the foreign conquests achieved by the Arabs under Mohammads first four successors was *an extensive corruption of their language*; for the nations that they subdued were naturally obliged to adopt in a great measure the speech of the conquerors, a speech which few persons have ever acquired in such a degree as to be secure from the commission of frequent errors in grammar without learning it from infancy.
> 
> Such being the case, it became a matter of the highest importance to the Arabs to preserve the knowledge of that speech which had thus become obsolescent, *and to draw a distinct line between the classical and the post-classical languages.  For the former language was that of the Kur-an *and of the Traditions of Mohammad, the sources of their religious, moral, civil, criminal, and political code and they possessed, in that language, preserved by oral tradition, - *for the art of writing, in Arabia, had been almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews.*
> 
> ...









> And, no, I haven't used google in any of this.



Apparently you have...


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> The one that is more shocking to me is the Christian principle that billions of Muslim and Jewish souls are damned to eternal hell regardless of how devout and upright they were on earth in their worship of the same God.



Fact is, Jews and Muslims do not worship the Triune Creator God that orthodox Christians do....and for that, you will not make it into Heaven....just as your Koran tells you...


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> The Koranic 'Muhammad' refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ.


You should take this in information to your local mosque and show the members your findings.    .


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Bowman said:
> 
> 
> > The Koranic 'Muhammad' refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ.
> ...



Just as soon as you go to your local church and tell them that your 'Muhammad' is the prophet of God....


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Bowman said:
> ...


I already have several times at Interfaith functions hosted by different churches.

Now when are you going to a mosque to tell them of your findings concerning Muhammad or are you a coward?     .


----------



## Truthseeker420 (Nov 27, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...



The Bible doesn't own those stories.


----------



## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> WillReadmore said:
> 
> 
> > It is common for Arabs to use ordinary words as names.  One of the challenges for beginning students of Arabic is that of detecting whether a word is a name, as there isn't a marker (such as we use capitalization) to note the difference.  So, one must know grammar and some naming conventions.  One can look up the word muhammad in the dictionary, but that is true for a significant percent of Arabic names.
> ...


Yes.  Good confirmation.  The same is true for numerous other Arabic names.

A friend named her son &#1606;&#1614;&#1576;&#1616;&#1604; - noble.  Her name is Amina (also the name of Muhammad's mother) an adjective meaning dependable, trustworthy, etc.  Nasser (&#1606;&#1575;&#1589;&#1616;&#1585; - former president of Egypt) is a noun that means helper, protector.  Anwar (Sadat) is a verb meaning to illuminate - the same Arabic root as for Queen Noor (light) of Jordan.


Your posts are getting hard to read.  I'm not sure what your real point is here.  I realize you have profound religious differences.  I'm not a Muslim either, by the way.  But, I don't see an excuse for disrespecting Islam.

I see us as being better off if we understand Islam to a greater extent than we do.  The anti-Islam sentiment is shocking to me, and it's destructive of America's influence abroad besides leading to ugly incidents and attitudes here at home.  We are stronger as a plural society.


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## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> I already have several times at Interfaith functions hosted by different churches.



And the outcome...?







> Now when are you going to a mosque to tell them of your findings concerning Muhammad or are you a coward?



When they promise not to endanger my life....


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> Yes.  Good confirmation.  The same is true for numerous other Arabic names.


 
'Muhammad' was not a proper name when the Koran was written...this occurred after the fact.







> A friend named her son &#1606;&#1614;&#1576;&#1616;&#1604; - noble.  Her name is Amina (also the name of Muhammad's mother) an adjective meaning dependable, trustworthy, etc.  Nasser (&#1606;&#1575;&#1589;&#1616;&#1585; - former president of Egypt) is a noun that means helper, protector.  Anwar (Sadat) is a verb meaning to illuminate - the same Arabic root as for Queen Noor (light) of Jordan.


 
Words that were proper names when the Koran was written are recorded as such in the Arabic lexicons.....'Muhammad' was not one...






> Your posts are getting hard to read.  I'm not sure what your real point is here.  I realize you have profound religious differences.  I'm not a Muslim either, by the way.  But, I don't see an excuse for disrespecting Islam.



My posts clarify the message of the Koran.

Does this offend you...?






> I see us as being better off if we understand Islam to a greater extent than we do.  The anti-Islam sentiment is shocking to me, and it's destructive of America's influence abroad besides leading to ugly incidents and attitudes here at home.  We are stronger as a plural society.



As spoken like a true liberal....


----------



## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Bowman said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


We have an active interfaith community here in Seattle.

As one example, NPR carries the "3 Interfaith Amigos" from time to time - a group composed of an imam, a Christian pastor and a rabbi who speak, write books and hold services at a local church that holds services in each of these faiths on alternating Sundays.  They have been in demand world wide.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> When they promise not to endanger my life....


Quit being such a wuss........   

I will guarantee your safety......just tell them that Achmed sent you.   .


----------



## WillReadmore (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> > Your posts are getting hard to read.  I'm not sure what your real point is here.  I realize you have profound religious differences.  I'm not a Muslim either, by the way.  But, I don't see an excuse for disrespecting Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If that's your intent, I'm sorry to hear that.


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> Bowman said:
> 
> 
> > > Your posts are getting hard to read.  I'm not sure what your real point is here.  I realize you have profound religious differences.  I'm not a Muslim either, by the way.  But, I don't see an excuse for disrespecting Islam.
> ...




Don't be sorry....look at it as an opportunity to learn...


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> Bowman said:
> 
> 
> > > Your posts are getting hard to read.  I'm not sure what your real point is here.  I realize you have profound religious differences.  I'm not a Muslim either, by the way.  But, I don't see an excuse for disrespecting Islam.
> ...


This Bowman nitwit is just a pathetic troll and a buffoon.   .


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> WillReadmore said:
> 
> 
> > Bowman said:
> ...




What else in your Koran do you require clarification on...?


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Bowman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > WillReadmore said:
> ...


Thanks, you have clarified everything about yourself..

Now please find another forum to spread your erudite wisdom. 

I am sure they are anxiously waiting for your arrival.     .


----------



## Mr Natural (Nov 27, 2013)

There's so many gods floating around these days that it's hard to tell who's who without a program.


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## Chuckt (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Bowman said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...





> The differences of sects in Islam are over ethnic and political disputes........not interpretations of the Quran.
> 
> Whereas, there are hundreds, if not thousands of Christian denominations, based solely on differences in how the Bible is interpreted.
> 
> ...



http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...holes-mentioned-in-the-qur-3.html#post8115199

You have someone here named Bowman here who knows Arabic and you refuse to debate him so your offer is disingenuous.  It is one of those cute little things you say but you don't really mean it especially when you are at a disadvantage.  Do you really know yourself or are you being dishonest?

Most of the people I've debated said, "show me" proof or something.  I would go out, research it and find out they are dishonest because they aren't interested because while they feel that way, it is a lie.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Chuckt said:


> You have someone here named Bowman here who knows Arabic and you refuse to debate him so your offer is disingenuous.  It is one of those cute little things you say but you don't really mean it especially when you are at a disadvantage.


The guy is just a cut&paste fruitcake.    .


----------



## Chuckt (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> > You have someone here named Bowman here who knows Arabic and you refuse to debate him so your offer is disingenuous.  It is one of those cute little things you say but you don't really mean it especially when you are at a disadvantage.
> ...



Then you should be able to do a better job at countering him but I guess you don't know your Koran as well as you think you do.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Chuckt said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Chuckt said:
> ...


It's pretty difficult to counter his kind of stupid.

True story..........


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## Chuckt (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



So how does that make you feel?


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## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Chuckt said:


> So how does that make you feel?


Get a grip Poindexter.

You're not a psychologist........


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## Chuckt (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> > So how does that make you feel?
> ...



Whenever one of my pastor friends asked me questions looking for answers, he sometimes said I should do better than that.

You should do better than that because if you can't answer then people are going to say you don't know.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 27, 2013)

Chuckt said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Chuckt said:
> ...


The loon posted that Jesus and Muhammad were the same person. 

Amazingly, you 'Thanked' him for the post.    .    

Then he claimed the Quran was all about Jesus.

Sorry, but I don't have the time or patience for such idiocy.   .


----------



## Chuckt (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Then how would you protect your faith?  By walking away?


----------



## Chuckt (Nov 27, 2013)

Chuckt said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Chuckt said:
> ...



Can you be in a leadership position and walk away?  How are you going to help other Muslims facing the same question?  You can't.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 27, 2013)

Sunni Man said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


That's a convenient excuse for a goofy convert to use. No one really expected you to offer anything but cut and paste.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the Canaanite pagan polytheism from which Judaism (and hence all the following Abrahamic faiths) originally evolved. It would be an entertaining thread to watch you attempt to conform a polytheistic tradition in which the head god El (from whence the Arabic Allah ultimately derives both his identity and his name) and his consort Asherah have 70 or so sons that are assigned responsibility for different middle eastern nations.

Muhammud (swish), stole ruthlessly from both of the true Abrahamic faiths that preceded his invention of islam. If you're going to insist on taking credit for the religions from which Islamism was created, you cannot fail to embrace its pagan roots without justifying charges of special pleading.

However, what we know is that Islam is more recently a syncretic faith, and that most of its core ritual (and its theology) is stolen both from the Abrahamic faiths, and from good old Arab paganism. This would include every detail of the hajj rituals along with the Kaabah itself. 

Throwing rocks at devil pillars. How cute!


----------



## Bowman (Nov 27, 2013)

Chuckt said:


> You have someone here named Bowman here who knows Arabic and you refuse to debate him so your offer is disingenuous.  It is one of those cute little things you say but you don't really mean it especially when you are at a disadvantage.  Do you really know yourself or are you being dishonest?
> 
> Most of the people I've debated said, "show me" proof or something.  I would go out, research it and find out they are dishonest because they aren't interested because while they feel that way, it is a lie.



No worries...I have not encountered any cognizant followers of islam on this forum as of yet who can stand up and actually defend their book of faith....


----------



## uhkilleez (Nov 27, 2013)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



The Bible is as much copied as the Qu'ran, I would argue. There are many scare tactics used in both Islam and Christianity, but these are perversions of men and not from God. Either of the texts can be used to find God within yourself, and you know within yourself what is righteous and what are the intentions of man through Him. We all have concepts of morality, because He is in us.


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## hangover (Nov 29, 2013)

I find it ironic that the Jews consider Jesus a fake and a liar, and are the ones that got him crucified. And the Muslims consider Jesus a revered Prophet. Yet Christians condemn the Muslims, and embrace the Jews as God's chosen. When the antichrist comes, will he fool the Jews into believing that HE is their Messiah? And will the Christians will go along, so as not to go against the Jews? Could the Muslims be the smart ones? There has to be two sides in order for Armageddon to happen.



> No worries...I have not encountered any cognizant followers of islam on this forum as of yet who can stand up and actually defend their book of faith....


You can't prove your faith any more than Muslims.


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## Bowman (Nov 29, 2013)

hangover said:


> You can't prove your faith any more than Muslims.



Yes.

I can.


----------



## The Irish Ram (Nov 29, 2013)

So can I. 

Hangover, Tell me who will be President of the U.S.  2,000 years from now............


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## Bowman (Dec 1, 2013)

Bowman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > WillReadmore said:
> ...





Bump for cognizant muslims....


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## WillReadmore (Dec 2, 2013)

So, the billions of Muslims who have worshiped your God, revering both the old and new testament of the Bible (as well as the revelations of Muhammad), honoring Jesus as one of the major prophets, but not actually understanding Jesus to be "part" of God ...

... are all going to have Jesus toss them into the fiery pit of Hell for all eternity for their efforts?

That's what Jesus would do?


----------



## Bowman (Dec 2, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> So, the billions of Muslims who have worshiped your God, revering both the old and new testament of the Bible (as well as the revelations of Muhammad), honoring Jesus as one of the major prophets, but not actually understanding Jesus to be "part" of God ...
> 
> ... are all going to have Jesus toss them into the fiery pit of Hell for all eternity for their efforts?
> 
> That's what Jesus would do?




Where have you been...?

Muslims don't worship my God.  They worship Satan.

Muslims don't revere the OT & NT....islam has falsely told them that they are corrupted.

He who has The Son has eternal life.  He who does not have The Son, does not have eternal life.

This is as simple as it gets.

Wake up....liberal...


----------



## WillReadmore (Dec 2, 2013)

Bowman said:


> WillReadmore said:
> 
> 
> > So, the billions of Muslims who have worshiped your God, revering both the old and new testament of the Bible (as well as the revelations of Muhammad), honoring Jesus as one of the major prophets, but not actually understanding Jesus to be "part" of God ...
> ...


Muslims worship the same God as do Christians.

There is absolutely no question about that.

They also oppose the same Satan that Christians oppose, and see a finality in which God conquers Satan.

By the way, the Qur'an has an answer for my question above.  It states that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have a place in Heaven.


----------



## Bowman (Dec 2, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> Muslims worship the same God as do Christians.
> 
> There is absolutely no question about that.



Muslims deny God The Son.

Therefore, they do not worship the same God.

You simply don't know scripture....





> They also oppose the same Satan that Christians oppose, and see a finality in which God conquers Satan.



They worship Iblis.






> By the way, the Qur'an has an answer for my question above.  It states that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have a place in Heaven.



Where?


----------



## WillReadmore (Dec 2, 2013)

Bowman said:


> WillReadmore said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims worship the same God as do Christians.
> ...


Muslims and Jews worship the God of the old testament - which Christians claim is the same as the God of the new testament.  That would be quite logical given the claims of the unchanging nature of God.

Iblis is the devil.  The Qur'an is very clear about Iblis being the great evil that must be (and will be) conquered by God.


----------



## hangover (Dec 2, 2013)

Bowman said:


> hangover said:
> 
> 
> > You can't prove your faith any more than Muslims.
> ...



NO.....you can't......but you are just as fanatical...you think your bible is just as infallible as they think the Koran is. And you both think the other are infidels. And anyone that thinks like that doesn't know God. You're just consumed by your dogma. You'd rather follow your dogma than know God. And both you and the Muslims WILL learn this before it's over.


----------



## Bowman (Dec 2, 2013)

WillReadmore said:


> Muslims and Jews worship the God of the old testament - which Christians claim is the same as the God of the new testament.  That would be quite logical given the claims of the unchanging nature of God.



Muslims and Jews deny God The Son - therefore, they do NOT worship the same God as Christians.






> Iblis is the devil.  The Qur'an is very clear about Iblis being the great evil that must be (and will be) conquered by God.



Their 'allah' shares the same root as do pagan Arab idols, such as the great serpent, therefore, they worship Satan.


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## American_Jihad (Mar 27, 2014)

*Why Moderate Islam is an Oxymoron*

by Raymond Ibrahim on March 26, 2014






At a time when terrorism committed in the name of Islam is rampant, we are continuously being assuredespecially by three major institutions that play a dominant role in forming the Western mindset, namely, mainstream media, academia, and governmentthat the sort of Islam embraced by radicals, jihadis, and so forth, has nothing to do with real Islam.

...

But what do these dual adjectivesmoderate and extremistultimately mean in the context of Islam?  Are they both equal and viable alternatives insofar as to how Islam is understood?  Are they both theologically legitimate?  This last question is particularly important, since Islam is first and foremost a religious way of life centered around the words of a deity (Allah) and his prophet (Muhammad)the significance of which is admittedly unappreciated by secular societies.

Both termsmoderate and extremisthave to do with degree, or less mathematically, zeal: how much, or to what extent, a thing is practiced or implemented.  As Websters puts it, moderate means observing reasonable limits; extremist means going to great or exaggerated lengths.

Its a question, then, of doing either too much or too little.

The problem, however, is that mainstream Islam offers a crystal-clear way of life, based on the teachings of the Koran and Hadiththe former, containing what purport to be the sacred words of Allah, the latter, the example (or sunna, hence Sunnis) of his prophet, also known as the most perfect man (al-insan al-kamil).   Indeed, based on these two primary sources and according to normative Islamic teaching, all human actions fall into five categories: forbidden actions, discouraged actions, neutral actions recommended actions, and obligatory actions.

In this context, how does a believer go about moderating what the deity and his spokesman have commanded?    One can either try to observe Islams commandments or one can ignore them: any more or less is not Islama word which means submit (to the laws, or sharia, of Allah).

The real question, then, is what do Allah and his prophet command Muslims (they who submit) to do?  Are radicals exaggerating their orders? Or are moderate Muslims simply observing reasonable limitsa euphemism for negligence?when it comes to fulfilling their commandments?

In our highly secularized era, where we are told that religious truths are flexible or simply non-existent, and that any and all interpretations and exegeses are valid, the all-important question of What does Islam command? loses all relevance.

Hence why the modern West is incapable of understanding Islam.

...

In fact, Muhammads 7th century followers literally acted on this and similar verses (e.g., 9:5), launching the first Muslim conquests, which saw the subjugation of millions of Christians, Jews, and others, and the creation of the Muslim world.  Such jihadi expansion continued until Islam was beaten on the battlefield by a resurgent West some two or three centuries ago.

Western scholarly works, before the age of relativism and political correctness set in, did not equivocate the meaning of jihad.  Thus the authoritative Encyclopaedia of Islams entry for jihad states that the spread of Islam by arms is a religious duty upon Muslims in general   Jihad must continue to be done until the whole world is under the rule of Islam  Islam must completely be made over before the doctrine of jihad [warfare to spread Islam] can be eliminated. Islamic law expert and U.S. professor Majid Khadduri (1909-2007), after defining jihad as warfare, wrote that jihad  is regarded by all jurists, with almost no exception, as a collective obligation of the whole Muslim community.

(As for the argument that the Bible contains similar war verses, yet Jews and Christians are not out to conquer the worldso why say Muslims are?see Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam for a detailed breakdown of the similarities and differences.  Also see Islamic Jihad and the Doctrine of Abrogation to understand how the Korans more tolerant verses have been abrogated by its more militant ones, such as 9:29.)

In short, how can a sincere Muslimby definition, one who has submitted to the teachings of Allahmoderate verses like 9:29?  How can he observe reasonable limits vis-à-vis these plain commands to combat and subjugate non-Muslims?

...

Bottom line: If Islam teaches X and a Muslim upholds Xhow is he being extreme?  Seems more logical to say that it is Islam itself that is being extreme.  Similarly, if a self-professed Muslim does not uphold Islamic teachingsincluding prayer, fasting, paying zakat, etc.how is he being a moderate?  Seems more logical to say that he is not much of a Muslim at allthat is, he is not submitting to Allah, the very definition of Muslim.

Its time to acknowledge that dichotomized notions like moderate and extreme are culturally induced and loaded standards of the modern, secular Westhardly applicable to the teachings of Islamand not universal absolutes recognized by all mankind.

Why ?Moderate Islam? is an Oxymoron | Raymond Ibrahim


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Mar 27, 2014)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



What both Christians and Muslims seem to ignore is the 'kill the non-believers' stuff in the Tanach means all non-Jews. Including them. So reiterating it is kinda self-defeating.

Death to Followers of Other Religions (different versions have slight numbering differences)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

20 Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed. (NIV)

20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed. (KJV)

19. He who slaughters [a sacrifice] to the gods shall be destroyed, except to the Lord alone. (Chassidic Torah)


So when Islam says kill infidels and the like, they're not actually wrong, they're simply overlooking the fact that they're infidels too.


----------



## MrMax (Mar 27, 2014)

The koran is arabic for bumwad. Since before that, they wiped their starfish with an uneven number of rocks.


----------



## Dajjal (Jun 12, 2014)

Since Muslim hordes are openly trying to create an Islamic super state in Iraq and Syria, I thought it was time to redouble my efforts to undermine them, by continuing to  point out the quran is not from God.
I have said it before and will say it again, the best weapon against Islam is the quran.
It is evil lies about God, and it is filled with nonsense like, the sun orbits the earth.


----------



## hobelim (Jun 13, 2014)

Dajjal said:


> Since Muslim hordes are openly trying to create an Islamic super state in Iraq and Syria, I thought it was time to redouble my efforts to undermine them, by continuing to  point out the quran is not from God.
> I have said it before and will say it again, the best weapon against Islam is the quran.
> It is evil lies about God, and it is filled with nonsense like, the sun orbits the earth.




At least you know where they are coming from. They don't want peace, justice, or to advance individual liberty, they hate and want to kill everyone who opposes their barbarism and insane religious beliefs so it seems they are beyond reasoning and should be killed back. Simple.


In certain situations one must put down their books and pick up a gun.


The real problem is with those who claim to love God and truth but insist that Islam is a peaceful religion unfairly maligned by a few radicals they hope to win over and appease diplomatically  by showing everyone how pusillanimous their sworn enemies can be....

where the hell are these people coming from?


Chances are that they will continue their barbarism unchecked and will eventually do something so heinous and so blatantly evil that even those who claim to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion will agree that tactical nuclear weapons will be the only appropriate response.


----------



## HUGGY (Jun 13, 2014)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> ...



These words ^^^^are lies.  The Muslims sacrifice people, mostly defenseless women, in the name of their god all the time and they are not "utterly destroyed" for it.  So the god of the Jews and christians never said the things in the old and new testament or he is a liar and a rediculous blowhard.


----------



## Dajjal (Feb 26, 2015)

I am bouncing my thread for Muslim75


----------



## Dajjal (Feb 26, 2015)

2.19. At the sound of every thunderclap for fear of death. And Allah encompasses the unbelievers. 
2.40. Fear Allah, and know that Allah is with the cautious. 
2.197. Fear Allah and know that he is firm in punishment. 
2.203. Fear Allah and know that you shall be assembled unto him. 
2.223. Fear Allah and know that you shall meet him. 
2.231. Fear Allah and know that he has knowledge of everything. 
2.278. Believers,fear Allah. 
2.282. Fear the day when you shall return to Allah. 
2.282. Fear Allah. 
3.5 Fear Allah and Obey. 
3.76. Fear Allah, Allah loves the cautious. 
3.102. Believers, fear Allah as he should be feared and do not die. Except as a Muslim.

That is just a start on the 266 listings of the word fear in the Koran. 
A book designed to scare silly Arabs into fighting Muhammad's battles for him.


----------



## Goddess_Ashtara (Feb 26, 2015)

Seriously dude, you've been complaining on this board about Islam
since 2012 or earlier?  Daaayum.  I don't even wanna know why.  Life is so much better when you spend less time hatin' on the things that get to you.  Tis so much better to shift your focus towards things that are far more beautiful to you.

"Your focus determines your reality..."

Speakin' of 2012...

I loved 2012.  It was an incredibly fun and magickal year for me.  Lots of partyin', hangin with friends, and lots of time spent out in the desert... spirit questin', hiking, climbing and bouldering, repelling and bellaying, cliff jumping, just training out in Nature and lovin' every moment of it.  All that end of the world hype was also a great catalyst for epic artwork and rituals.  Fucking 2012 man... what an incredible year.  

Vegas and Phoenix <3
​


----------



## amrchaos (Feb 26, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...




So, attaching the NT to an editted Jewish text is not theft?


I call that an obvious form of theft--the OT was not created for gentiles nor was it intended to be given to gentiles.


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Feb 27, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



Since I had the tab open already sure, I'll dispute it. Or at least that it's Qur'an that makes God look like a monster.

Not to give up hating the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9)
To destroy idolatry and its appurtenances (Deut. 12:2-3)
Not to save the enticer from capital punishment, but to stand by at his execution (Deut. 13:9) 
Not to settle idolaters in our land (Ex. 23:33)
To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city (Deut. 13:16-17)
Not to rebuild a city that has been led astray to idolatry (Deut. 13:17)

Not to intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3) 

That the Court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev. 20:10)
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by burning with fire (Lev. 20:14)
That the Court shall pass sentence of death by stoning (Deut. 22:24)
To hang the dead body of one who has incurred that penalty (Deut. 21:22)
To adjudge a thief to pay compensation or (in certain cases) suffer death (Ex. 21:16; Ex. 21:37; Ex. 22:1)
To punish the wicked by the infliction of stripes (Deut. 25:2)


To condemn Islam for doing things they in fact COPIED from Judaism is hypocritical in the EXTREME.


----------



## Dajjal (Feb 27, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> ...



But all that aside, I think you agree with me that the Quran is not the word of God.


----------



## PratchettFan (Feb 27, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...


 
No book is the word of God.  They are all, without exception, the word of man.


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Feb 27, 2015)

PratchettFan said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



Well, because there's over 25,000 discrete religions, I'd be more comfortable saying most aren't the word of God. What some obscure cult claims I don't know.


----------



## PratchettFan (Feb 27, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> PratchettFan said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...


 
What they claim makes no difference.  Books are written by human beings.


----------



## American_Jihad (Oct 28, 2015)

*The Fantasy Islam of Reza Aslan*
* Welcome to the game of hiding what's in the Koran. *
October 27, 2015
Dr. Stephen M. Kirby





_Fantasy Islam: A game in which an audience of non-Muslims wish with all their hearts that Islam was a “Religion of Peace,” and a Muslim strives to fulfill that wish by presenting a personal version of Islam that has little foundation in Islamic Doctrine._

As I have mentioned before, "Fantasy Islam" is a popular game among many non-Muslims and so-called “moderate” or “reformist” Muslims.  Reza Aslan appears to be such a Muslim.

Reza Aslan was born in Iran.  In 1979, at the age of seven, he and his family fled the Iranian Revolution and came to the United States.  At the age of 15 he converted to evangelical Christianity, but later returned to Islam.  His website states that he is “an internationally acclaimed writer and scholar of religions.”  He is currently a Professor of Creative Writing at the University of California, Riverside.

In 2005 Aslan wrote a book titled _No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam_. The updated edition came out in 2011.  This article addresses that updated edition.

It should be noted that in his book Aslan listed _The Life of Muhammad_ and the multi-volume work _The History of al-Tabari_, as among the books he “consulted.”  These are classical works by Muslim scholars and major sources for information about Muhammad and Islam.  Aslan even specifically mentions them as among those that have “catalogued” the story of Islam (p. xxiv).  Unfortunately, although Aslan claims that he “consulted” them, we will see that he apparently overlooked conflicting information in these works in favor of playing _Fantasy Islam_.

*Death Penalty for Apostasy is “Un-Quranic”*

On p. 121 Aslan stated that the death penalty for apostasy was “un-Quranic,” and he stated that nowhere in the Koran “is any earthly punishment prescribed for apostasy.”

The only problem for Aslan is that in 4:89 of the Koran Allah commands Muslims to take hold of those apostates who have left Islam and “kill them wherever you find them.”  So the death penalty for apostasy from Islam is in the Koran.

In addition, Muhammad said that death was the penalty for a Muslim who left Islam (e.g. _Sahih Al-Bukhari_, Nos. 6878 and 6923; and _Sahih Muslim_, No. 1676).  And Muhammad even specified the nature of that death:

_If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head!_

_Al-Muwatta of Imam Malik ibn Anas_, 36.18.15, in a section titled “Judgement on Abandonment of Islam.”

...

...

*Conclusion*

On p. 286 Aslan stated that Islam was a personal religion with “no mediator between the believer and God,” and “all people have the ability to discern God’s will for themselves.”  He called this a “radical creed” that some have used

_to develop wholly new interpretations of Islam that foster pluralism, individualism, modernism, and democracy; others have used it to propound an equally new ideal of Islam that calls for intolerance, bigotry, militancy, and perpetual war.  Which of these interpretations is “true Islam” is an unanswerable question, since the rejection of institutional authority means that all interpretations of Islam must be considered equally authoritative._

So according to Aslan, Islam is whatever anybody wants it to be, and on top of that it can still be called Islam!  And so Fantasy Islam is played.

The Fantasy Islam of Reza Aslan


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## Campbell (Oct 29, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



You think that is a cheap copy look at what it did for con man Joseph Smith and his sidekick Brigham Young......more hot nights than a pot bellied wood stove...more ass than a cowboy's saddle. Have you read the book of Mormon? AND.....he even claims the church origin rests with the lost, twelfth tribe of Israel, short for American Indians. I would have liked to see those golden plates the angel Mormon showed Smith.......'course nobody else saw them either. When it comes to the origin of various religions nothing else can hold a light to it....made up lies and human dreams and fantasies.....that's all any of it amounts to.


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## Dajjal (Nov 18, 2015)

Bounce, I bounced this thread to make it easy to find for people on Twitter and I left a link to it there. I am hoping to attract more members to the USMB, especially Muslims.


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## Dajjal (Nov 25, 2015)

It is my conclusion that the quran is largely stolen from the bible and other sources. The quran which is supposed to be the words of God contains references to many Jewish myths from the bible. It then presents them as true historical facts. Do Muslims really believe in Noahs ark, or Moses turning his staff into a snake, or Jonah being swallowed by a whale and spat up on a beach. Because all these stories are in the quran. Surely this proves the quran is not from God.

Here is the story of the Ark in the quran, sura 11.37

11.37.  "But construct an Ark under Our eyes and Our inspiration, and address Me no (further) on behalf of those who are in sin: for they are about to be overwhelmed (in the Flood)." 
11.38.  Forthwith he starts constructing the Ark: every time that the Chiefs of his People passed by him, they threw ridicule on him. They threw ridicule on him. He said: "If ye ridicule us now, we (in our turn) can look down on you with ridicule likewise! 
11.39.  "But soon will ye know who it is on whom will descend a Penalty that will cover them with shame on whom will be unloosed a Penalty lasting." 
11.40.  At length behold! There came Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: "Embark therein of each kind two, male and female, and your family except those against whom the Word has already gone forth and the Believers." But only a few believed with him. 
11.41.  So he said: "Embark ye on the Ark in the name of Allah, whether it move or be at rest! For my Lord is, be sure, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful!" 
11.42.  So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! Embark with us, and be not with the Unbelievers!" 
11.43.  The son replied: "I will be take myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the Command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy!"? and the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood. 
11.44.  When the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"

Here is the story of Moses turning his staff into a snake.


26.29.  (Pharaoh) said: "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!" 
26.30.  (Moses) said: "Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?" 
26.31.  (Pharaoh) said: "Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!" 
26.32.  So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)! 
26.33.  And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders! 
26.34.  (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: "This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed:


Here is the story of Jonah being swallowed by a whale.


37.139.  So also was Jonah among those sent (by us). 
37.140.  When he ran away (like slave from captivity) to the ship (fully) laden 
37.141.  He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was condemned: 
37.142.  Then the big Fish did swallow him, and he had done acts worthy of blame. 
37.143.  Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah, 
37.144.  He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection. 
37.145.  But We cast him forth, on the naked shore in a state of sickness


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 25, 2015)

I don't believe a god addressing Humankind would use any particular language of those humans but rather some universal language. Why would a god spend any time at all learning our languages? He gonna learn all of them and all their subtongues? No wonder he never saves a church van going off a cliff, he's busy learning modern itterations of languages. 

Only 'godly' language is mathematics. So until and unless a holy book from some god is in math, it's not from a god at all.


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## Dajjal (Nov 25, 2015)

Was Muhammad a Liar, madman or prophet. My reading of the quran is that he was a calculating liar who stole the bible stories to scare people into following him. One reason I think this is that he tries to justify himself many times in the quran, as proved by the following quotes. A true prophet would not waste space in the final message to all mankind trying to justify himself to his critics as Muhammad obviously does. Added to that he wrote the whole sura 111 dedicated to cursing his own aunt and uncle, because they did not believe in him.

7.184 Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.

15.6 They say: "O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! truly thou art mad (or possessed)!

15.7 Why bring you not angels unto us, if you are of the truthful?

21.5 Nay," they say, "(these are) medleys of dream! - Nay, He forged it! - Nay, He is (but) a poet! Let him then bring us a Sign like the ones that were sent to (Prophets) of old!"

36.69 We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:

37.36 And say: "What! shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?"

44.14 Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"


50.30 Or do they say:- "A Poet! we await for him some calamity (hatched) by Time!"

52.29 Therefore proclaim thou the praises (of thy Lord): for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou art no (vulgar) soothsayer, nor art thou one possessed.

68.2 Thou art not, by the Grace of thy Lord, mad or possessed.

68.51 And the Unbelievers would almost trip thee up with their eyes when they hear the Message; and they say: "Surely he is possessed!"

69.41 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!

81.22 and your comrade is not mad.

81.25 Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed.

Here are three verses that show many people of Muhammads own time did not believe in him, but he tried to justify himself claiming the holy spirit taught him. But he mistook the meaning of the holy spirit in the bible, thinking the angel Gabriel was the messenger. But the holy spirit is part of the trinity, and it spoke though Jesus and the diciples. The angel Gabriel only announced the coming of John the baptist and Jesus, but gave no message to them.


16.101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

16.102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.


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## Dajjal (Nov 25, 2015)

The quranic challenge.

Sura 17.88 Say verily, though mankind and the Jinn should assemble to produce the like of this quran, they could not produce the like thereof though they were the helpers of one another.

Quite apart from the fact that the quran is simplistic and repetitive, and it is plagiarism from other sources. Why does it frequently refer to itself as the quran, when it was not even compiled until well after Muhammads death?

A book telling you it is a book, when it has not even been written yet!

This is what I mean by reading the quran to analyze the text, and not going all weak in the head and throwing yourself on a prayer mat in case you annoy God. 
The quran is full of ignorant, nasty, nonsense, and human literature is filled with far greater writings, from ancient Greece until the present day.


Try reading  Homers Iliad or Odyssy, or Plato and Aristotle, or Shakespears sonnets, or Byron's Childe Harolds Pilgrimage, or the Pilgrims progress by Bunyan. Or Dante's the Divine Comedy. Or little flowers of St Francis. Or try coming up to date with Zen and the art of Motorcyle maintainance. Or the Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra. Or The physics of immortality by Frank Tipler.

These are just a few books I grabbed off the shelves of my personal library to make a point.

There is only one thing I find remarkable about the quran, and that is that anyone in this world can possibly still believe it came from God.


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## Dajjal (Nov 26, 2015)

Here is a drunken rant I wrote some time ago, but I do not think I posted it on this thread. On reading it I thought I should.

Since we cannot know if there is a God or not, either by Science or reason.
We can only come to believe in God by a suspension of disbelief. That is where religious theology enters the picture, and people tend to accept the rituals and authority of the dominant religions as their way to find God.
I have been through many religions and cults in my pursuit of truth, and I have found fault with most of them. But never until I read the Quran in 2001 did I find any theology that was so plainly fabricated. The entire Quran is filled with clues to the fact that Muhammad lied about being a messenger of God, and created a false religion to enslave peoples minds with fear.

THIS IS THE SPACE AGE, NOT THE 7TH CENTURY.

I have spent my life tearing the truth out of theologies, and now I know I have something to offer in that department. So when I see Islam collide with the West I seek to understand the reasons, and the reason is plain.

ISLAM IS ALL LIES ABOUT GOD, AND IT CONTAINS THE SEEDS OF SEPARATION, AND TRIBALISM, AND WAR.

In fact that was Muhammad's entire plan. He said people must obey Allah, and the Messenger (Muhammad) or face an awful doom. He told wandering desert Arabs that they must fight and die for him, or face doom from Allah. He even told them all spoils of war belonged to him, but later changed it to one fifth of the spoils, as he probably realized there would be no incentive for Arabs to join him. (see sura 8)

HE WAS A DIRTY MURDERING LIAR.

I have survived walking out of many religions and cults, and now I do not need any of them.  But I still believe in a God, as everything I have learned tells me creation is meaningfull and progressive. In the past there have been many religions that human minds grew out of, so they were discarded for a better ideology. So maybe all I am trying to do is make muslims grow up.

BECAUSE IT IS CLEAR TO ME THAT THE TIME FOR ISLAM IS OVER.

We are one people, and one great family of souls, not believers and unbelievers in some 7th century Arab bandit that lied about being a messenger of God. Therefore Islam must die out for the sake of peace in the world. I think that will happen in this century, because Muslims have brains, so if the flaws in the Quran are pointed out to them, they will eventually wake up.


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## Dajjal (Nov 26, 2015)

Scholars help me out here, I am trying to write a piece  about the Qurans refrences to seven oceans. Also seven heavens. Anyone got any thoughts to clarify the issue?

There are verses in the Quran which mention where the Two seas join, and another verse about Seven Oceans. 
Of course the words sea and ocean could be considered interchangeable, and then there is the Arabic translation issue, as there is no telling what the Quranic Arabic for sea and ocean are.


What are the seven seas?

To the ancients, "seven" often meant "many," and before the fifteenth century, the many seas of the world were:


the Red Sea 
the Mediterranean Sea 
the Persian Gulf 
the Black Sea 
the Adriatic Sea 
the Caspian Sea 
the Indian Ocean

Today, the world is generally considered divided into four main oceans:

the Arctic Ocean ,the Atlantic Ocean, the Indian Ocean ,the Pacific Ocean. In addition, there are numerous smaller seas and gulfs.


Also there is a reference to seven heavens, (sura 2.29) and I cannot see where Muhammad stole that from as I cannot find mention of Seven heavens in the Bible. I dunno if there is any talk of seven heavens in other early writings, like the Greek. Or it could just be as simple as the fact that the bible talks of seven things hundreds of times. (over four hundred times in the old testament alone, and many times in the book of revelations)


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## Goddess_Ashtara (Nov 26, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> Scholars help me out here, I am trying to write a piece  about the Qurans refrences to seven oceans. Also seven heavens. Anyone got any thoughts to clarify the issue?
> 
> ...
> 
> Also there is a reference to seven heavens, (sura 2.29) and I cannot see where Muhammad stole that from as I cannot find mention of Seven heavens in the Bible. I dunno if there is any talk of seven heavens in other early writings, like the Greek. Or it could just be as simple as the fact that the bible talks of seven things hundreds of times. (over four hundred times in the old testament alone, and many times in the book of revelations)



7

Seven is a special number regarding the Celestial and the Infernal.  Seven heavens are mentioned in ancient Mesopotamia and in Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, and certain pagan spiritual/ religious systems.

In the Descent of Ishtar and Inanna's Descent (of ancient Mesopotamian religion), the goddess Ishtar/ Inanna's journey into the Underworld takes her through seven Infernal gates.   Hinduism talks about seven higher worlds and seven lower worlds.  Jainism mentions seven Hells, as does certain pagan spiritual/ religious systems.

You seriously need to get it out of your mind that Muhammad "stole" or "plagiarized" from the Bible.  Many spiritual/ religious motifs recur throughout religions, and the Bible is believed by countless people to contain epic truths and many historical accounts, so from that perspective repeating its stories isn't "stealing" or "plagiarism" at all.  And despite the Bible's profound ability to give us a beautiful glimpse into the past and teach us great insights about human Nature, the Bible- like the Quran- has been used for brainwashing, indoctrination, mass manipulation, exploitation of the masses, spiritual domination, social control, a means to justify war and violence and murder and conquest, etc.  Such is not unique to the Quran.  But despite all this... the Bible and the Quran have both been used to aid countless people in living lives of peace and love and happiness and virtue.

It is up to the individual to use scripture as you Will.

Isn't that duality just something to behold?  That Holy Books such as these could have such magificent power to unleash the Light or Dark within? The Quran as well as the Bible are indeed magickal.
​


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

Goddess_Ashtara said:


> You seriously need to get it out of your mind that Muhammad "stole" or "plagiarized" from the Bible.



I am absolutely 100% certain that Muhammad stole most of his material from the bible, and most of the rest of it from other sources.


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## Goddess_Ashtara (Nov 27, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> Goddess_Ashtara said:
> 
> 
> > You seriously need to get it out of your mind that Muhammad "stole" or "plagiarized" from the Bible.
> ...



I feel like you are using the word "stole" incorrectly. You can't "steal" history, you can only retell it.  You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them.  You can't "steal" wisdom about human Nature, but you can absorb it and use it in life and pass it down in your own way.  

And sometimes, spiritual/ religious culture of one group is _absorbed_ into the spiritual/ religious culture of another group and _evolved_ accordingly.

What, do you think the "Descent of Ishtar" was "stolen" from "Inanna's Descent"?  Did the Babylonians "steal" the goddess Ishtar from the Sumerians? 

Were the Roman Gods "stolen" from Greece?  Minerva and Jupiter "stolen" from Athena and Zeus?  

Was the reference to YHWH in his "storm chariot" (which is described as being pulled by four Living creatures) as he soared over the primordial waters, slew a draconic Leviathan, and emerged victorious over the forces of chaos stolen from the Babylonian Enuma Elis where it talks about Marduk in his "storm chariot" pulled by four creatures as he soars through the heavens and does battle and emerges victorious against Tiamat (Goddess of the primordial waters/ primordial chaos/ the Abyss, often described as draconic)?  Was the story about YHWH creating the world and bringing Order to Chaos "stolen" from the Enuma Elis where it talks about Marduk bringing Order to Chaos by achieving the Tablet of Destinies and rearranging the cosmos after slaying the chaos goddess Tiamat?

What about the Mesopotamian myths of the storm god Enlil? Enlil was angry with humanity and was about to destroy the world in a flood... a man called Utnapishtim received a divine revelation from the god of wisdom and sorcery- Enki- commanding him to build a giant ship to house his family and animals so that they would survive the coming deluge... Enlil flooded the Earth... and after many storming days and nights Utnapishtim sent out three birds (a dove, a swallow, and a raven) to learn when the waters had receded, and having landed on a mountain in the Middle East and after releasing the ship's inhabitants offered sacrifice to the gods and was rewarded by them?  Was that "stolen" to create the story of YHWH growing angry with humanity and destroying the world in a flood, but giving Noah a divine revelation to construct a giant ark to house his family and animals so that they would survive the deluge... and after many storming days and nights sent out two birds (a raven, a dove, and the same dove again) to learn when the waters receded, and having landed on a mountain in the Middle East and after releasing the Ark's inhabitants offered sacrifice to God and was blessed by God who made an epic covenant with him?  Well?  Was that story "stolen"?  

Do you see any connection between Jesus and Appolonius, or even Esklepios or Dionysus?  Notice any connection between Abrahamism and Ancient Egypt?  Notice any connection between Jesus Christ and Osirus and Horus?  

What of Zoroastrianism and Abrahamism? Ahura Mazda and Ahriman/ Angra Mainyu to God and Satan?

*You say the Quran "stole" from the Bible.  How 'bout you fill me on what you think the Bible "stole" from.  *​


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

The koran is the devil's book.


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

Goddess_Ashtara said:


> *You say the Quran "stole" from the Bible. How 'bout you fill me on what you think the Bible "stole" from. *



Yes , I think a lot of the bible comes from earlier stories. For example the concept of a lake of fire in hell comes from the Egyptian book of the dead. As for the flood myth it probably comes from 'the epic of Gilgamesh'.

But I am not a bible scholar and you undoubtedly know the bible better than me. I know the Quran better than the bible, because I have been reading the Quran since after the 9/11/01 attack.


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

Goddess_Ashtara said:


> You can't "steal" history, you can only retell it. You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them.



To me the old testament stories of the bible are myths, not history. So what are they doing in the Quran as the supposed words of God? I speak of the myths of Noah's ark and Jonah and the whale, and the parting of the red sea, and Moses turning his stick into a snake. I think these stories are Jewish myths, not historical facts.


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## Goddess_Ashtara (Nov 27, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> Goddess_Ashtara said:
> 
> 
> > You can't "steal" history, you can only retell it. You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them.
> ...



I didn't say they were.  Immediately after describing how history cannot be "stolen", I wrote:
_
"You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them.

You can't "steal" wisdom about human Nature, but you can absorb it and use it in life and pass it down in your own way. 

And sometimes, spiritual/ religious culture of one group is absorbed into the spiritual/ religious culture of another group and evolved accordingly"_

You know what a recurring religious motif is right?  You know what archetypes are, right?  Making use of recurring religious motifs and recurring deific archetypes is not "stealing"

As for the absorbtion of past myths into one's own religious views... it isn't "stealing".  I do this all the time in my own spiritual/ religious system.  *I take from a religion what I find strength, meaning, power and beauty in, and do this with every religion I can.  That's what happens when you realize that no single religion has all the answers or culture you seek.  I know this and the authors of the Bible knew this.*  Someday I may even make my spiritual/ religious system an official religion... combining ancient Sumero-Babylonian mythology with Abrahamism, but including culture I have learned from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, traditional witchcraft, Thelema, Order of Nine Angles, Kaballah... and anything else I have found profound spiritual/ religious meaning in.

Is that "stealing"?

*No, it's not.  It's religion.  That's how religion works.  That's how countless religions are born and that's how religion evolves.*

​


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

Goddess_Ashtara said:


> *No, it's not. It's religion. That's how religion works. That's how religion forms and that's how religion evolves.*



I do not think Islam can evolve to something better, I think it can only die. Like all the old religions we no longer subscribe to. Like the ancient Egyptian and Greek and Roman beliefs that are now dead in the world.
It is my view that Muhammad created a false religion and he was not a true messenger, therefore Islam too should die out and be forgotten.


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

I have picked over the bones of many beliefs, and found most of them wanting. For example I threw down Madam Blavatsky's secret doctrine when I read she said there was an Atlantis under the Atlantic. Because I know the Atlantic was caused by the mid Atlantic fissure  pushing the continental plates apart and Europe and America fit perfectly together if you cut them out of an atlas. There is no room for a mid Atlantic sunken city, and in any case we have maps of the sea bed. So the secret doctrine is bunk.
I went to mediums one of which was called Ursula Roberts, and another was called Grace Cook. They both said many beautiful and uplifting things and you can find their teachings on the Internet. But both of them at different times said there were people living on Mars and Venus. This was before the space probes that show there is no life on those planets. So beguiling as their teaching was and no matter how much I wanted to believe the good things they said, I was forced to conclude they too were fakes. So I threw away all my White Eagle books, by Grace Cook and decided they were bunk too.

I still think there probably is a spirit world, but I no longer have any certainty of what it is like, but I am sure it is not like Muhammad's evil rotten hell. I can give up my beliefs for the sake of reason, therefore so can Muslims.


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## Ancient lion (Nov 27, 2015)

_*Corrupt Pious*_
_Al-Imran (The House of Imran) - Chapter 3: Verse 78_

*​"There are some among them who twist their tongues when quoting the Scriptures, so that you may think that [what they say] is from the Scriptures, when it is not from the Scriptures. They say: ‘It is from God”, when it is not from God. Thus, they deliberately say of God what they know to be a lie."*

When religious men are corrupt they allow themselves to be used as a tool for the falsification of facts. In this manner, they take advantage of their guise as men of religion. The example employed by the Quran in relation to the people of earlier revelations is well known to us today. They impose on the verses and statements of their own revelations arbitrary interpretations and conclusions, claiming that these represent the precise meaning intended and that, as such, they constitute God's message. In actual fact, however, their conclusions are in sharp conflict with the very essence of Divine faith. They are able to achieve this contortion because *the majority of people cannot differentiate between the true essence of faith and the true meaning of these statements on the one hand, and the fabricated conclusions they arbitrarily impose on these same statements on the other.*

We are today well aware of such people who are wrongly described as religious. Indeed, they are religious professionals who look upon religion as a profession and who use it in order to satisfy all sorts of prejudice. They do not hesitate to make use of any religious text when it seems to them that by so doing they serve their own material interests. It does not concern them that their arbitrary interpretations of God's revelations contradict the basic principles of faith. They try hard to detect even the slightest hint of linguistic ambiguity in a Quranic verse so that they can endorse any desire, tendency or prejudice which serves their immediate interests.

This sort of corruption is not exclusive to the people of earlier revelations. It is evident in every nation where religious faith has been greatly devalued as a result of the relentless pursuit of trifling worldly gains. *It gains currency in any nation where people are so dishonest that they do not hesitate to deliberately and knowingly tell a lie about God and distort His words in order to win favours and satisfy their own perverted desires.* Here God warns the Muslim community against falling into this slippery way; a path on which the Children of Israel fell and which led them to be deprived of what they had been entrusted with, namely the leadership of mankind. *Compiled From: *"In The Shade of The Quran"


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

Ancient lion said:


> *There are some among them who twist their tongues when quoting the Scriptures, so that you may think that [what they say] is from the Scriptures, when it is not from the Scriptures. They say: ‘It is from God”, when it is not from God. Thus, they deliberately say of God what they know to be a lie."*



Yes, some people lie about God and I consider it a truly evil thing to do. What is more I am absolutely sure that Muhammad was one of those liars. He even makes an issue of it a number of times in the Quran, and as far as I am concerned he condemns himself out of his own mouth.


4.50 Behold! how they invent a lie against God! but that by itself is a manifest sin!

6.21 Who doth more wrong than he who inventeth a lie against God or rejecteth His signs? But verily the wrong-doers never shall prosper.

10.17 Who doth more wrong than such as forge a lie against God, or deny His Signs? But never will prosper those who sin.

11.18 Who doth more wrong than those who invent a life against God? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! the Curse of God is on those who do wrong! -

29.68 And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against God or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?

39.32 Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning God, and rejects the Truth when it comes to him; is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers?

61.70 Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against God, even as he is being invited to Islam? And God guides not those who do wrong.

72.5 'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against God.


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## Goddess_Ashtara (Nov 27, 2015)

Dajjal said:


> Ancient lion said:
> 
> 
> > *There are some among them who twist their tongues when quoting the Scriptures, so that you may think that [what they say] is from the Scriptures, when it is not from the Scriptures. They say: ‘It is from God”, when it is not from God. Thus, they deliberately say of God what they know to be a lie."*
> ...



If Muhammad legitimately believed that he was receiving divine revelations, is it really "lying"?  After all, he did organize one of the most successful religions of all time, as approximately one in every four and a half people *on Earth* are Muslim. 

​


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

Goddess_Ashtara said:


> If Muhammad legitimately believed that he was receiving divine revelations, is it really "lying"? After all, he did organize one of the most successful religions of all time, as approximately one in every four and a half people *on Earth* are Muslim



As far as I can see there are three choices.
 Muhammad was a true messenger of God, he was a liar, or he was a madman.
 From my personal perspective, reading between the lines of the Quran,  he knew what he was doing and was very clever, but he lied about getting a message from the angel Gabriel. He did this to manipulate people and control their minds with fear.


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## Dajjal (Nov 27, 2015)

In the Quran Muhammad makes the mistake of confusing the angel Gabriel with the holy spirit. He fails to understand the message in the bible that the Holy Ghost speaks through the mouths of the true prophets and the disciples. In the bible the only message given by Gabriel was to announce the coming of John the Baptist and the coming of Jesus.


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## indiajo (Dec 6, 2015)

hjmick said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.
> ...



Yes. Sand roots.


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## Dajjal (Dec 30, 2015)




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## Dajjal (Dec 30, 2015)




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## Dajjal (Jan 31, 2016)

The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.

If you read it you will see that it says King Solomon could understand birds and ants, they talked and he heard them. This would seem to be a nail in the coffin of the Quran as it is obvious nonsense.

27.16  And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught 
the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed 
Grace manifest (from God.)"
27.17  And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds, 
and they were all kept in order and ranks.
27.18  At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: 
"O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under 
foot) without knowing it."
27.19  So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me 
that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my 
parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, 
by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
27.20  And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the 
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
27.21  "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he 
bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
27.22  But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed 
(territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with 
tidings true.


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## Political Junky (Jan 31, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.
> 
> If you read it you will see that it says King Solomon could understand birds and ants, they talked and he heard them. This would seem to be a nail in the coffin of the Quran as it is obvious nonsense.
> 
> ...


And the Bible says that Jonah spent days in the belly of a whale, and that Eve talked to a snake.


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## Dajjal (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.
> ...



Yes, and the Quran repeats those bible myths as being the words of God.


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## Political Junky (Jan 31, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...


Muslims worship the same God that Christians worship. They have great respect for Jesus and his mother, Mary.


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## Dajjal (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
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No, they think Jesus was just another messenger whereas Christians think he was part of the trinity.
Incidentally the story of Adam and eve in the Quran is typically vague and it does not actually mention the snake.


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## Political Junky (Jan 31, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...


You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. Muslims *do* respect Jesus and his mother, Mary.


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## irosie91 (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...




muslims......"respect"  ISA and his mother<<<<  WTF is that supposed to mean?.  
The writers of the koran INVENTED  an  ISA  which they claim was the REAL
Jesus------the one that Christians LIED about in order to DISPUTE ISLAM.     
I could do something like that-----just invent a whole new  "muhummad"-----
who was a traveling sandal-maker-------who liked bagels


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## Political Junky (Jan 31, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...


Link?


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## irosie91 (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...




I learned all about islam from muslims long before Al Gore invented the
internet------I read the koran ----probably before you were born. ----I even
attended mosques and HEARD all about islam in English language 
"KHUTBAH JUMAAT"    thus I have a very firm insight into the issue
of   the Islamic view of JESUS and MARY and the NEW TESTAMENT.    If
you wish to know more----talk to muslims-----it is best to say you are a jew
if you want to know what muslims think of   Jesus and the New Testament and
Mary   and Christianity---------you could try either----with this or that muslim----
I have used BOTH POSITIONS.        In the general Islamic view----the most
utterly idiotic  issue in Christianity is that LIE about Jesus ----the LIE that he
advocated a  "TURN YOUR CHEEK"  approach to insult or attack----AN OBVIOUS LIE   invented by Christians----the EMINEEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAAM.     (aka
PERVERSE LIARS)


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## Political Junky (Jan 31, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


So, you have no source.


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## Political Junky (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*Isa Ibn Maryam* (Arabic: عيسى بن مريم‎, translit. _ʿĪsā ibn Maryām_; English: Jesus, son of Mary), or *Jesus* in the New Testament, is considered to be a Messenger of God and _al-Masih_ (the Messiah) in Islam[1][2]:30who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (_banī isrā'īl_) with a new scripture, _al-Injīl_ (the Gospel).[3]The belief that Jesus is a prophet is required in Islam. This is reflected in the fact that he is clearly a significant figure in the Quran, appearing in 93 _ayaat_ (or verses) with various titles attached, with Moses appearing 136 times and Abraham 69 times.[4] The Quran states that Jesus was born a 'pure boy' toMary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God the Creator (Arabic: Allah) which follows the belief of the prophetic message in the Old Testament passage Isaiah 7:14 and referenced in the New Testament passages Matthew 1:18-25and Luke 1:26-38. To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to performmiracles (such as healing various ailments like blindness, raising the dead to life, casting out demons, etc.) which no other prophet in Islam has ever been credited with, all according to God's will. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means. This view disagrees with the foundation of the Gospel. Instead, the Quran says "God raised him unto Himself," which happens to agree with the Gospel message of Isa ascending into heaven. In the 19th Sura of the Quran (verse 33), Jesus is believed to have said "And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive", a similar statement that John the Baptist declared a few verses earlier in the same Sura. Muslim tradition believes this to mean Jesus will experience a natural death with all mankind _after_ returning to earth, being raised to life _again_ on the day of judgment.

Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God. Traditionally, Islam teaches the rejection of the Trinitarian Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God. The Quran says that Jesus himself never claimed to be the Son of God, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him.[5]Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (_shirk_), emphasizing a strict notion that God is singular, or "one" (_tawhīd_).


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## irosie91 (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



wrong----my sources are highly educated muslims-------just about all of them
were medical school graduates which is a big deal in  third word countries----
the  CREAM OF THE CROP-------must be either medicine or engineering. 
The way to get into medical school is to  REPEAT that which is taught in school--
in muslim countries ISLAM is taught in school.      The koran   was not
really a source for me anymore than reading the RAMAYANA was a source
for  "understanding Hinduism"-------The manner in which MUSLIMS INTERPRET
the koran is my source.     Any reliance on  WIKI  for a grasp on islam is almost
like relying on your seventh grade social studies textbook for   "what is islam"


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## Dajjal (Jan 31, 2016)

Here is what Muslims think of Christians.

Quran 5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.


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## irosie91 (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...




yeah?      so?      until you have learned what real live muslims learned in muslim
schools--------and mosques and in muslim communities -----growing up muslims---
all you have is the superficial---for general consumption--- version


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## irosie91 (Jan 31, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Here is what Muslims think of Christians.
> 
> Quran 5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.



for any understanding   on that line-------ask a muslim kid who is bright and----from an
observant home.      even better----ask if his sister is allowed to visit Christian or
jewish or hindu friends in their homes-----(don't really do it-------you could be blamed
for  "attacking"  a child------but I came to know a few muslim kids WAY back in the
mid sixties----when I was a kid))


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## irosie91 (Jan 31, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
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I just told you my source------chronic liars like you----tend to SUSPECT,,
or at least   ACCUSE everyone else of being the same SHIT you are


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## Uncensored2008 (Feb 1, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Muslims worship the same God that Christians worship.



False.

Muslims worship the "god" of the Phallic or Black Stone of the Kaaba. When Muslims bow toward Mecca, it is this idol that they are bowing in worship of.

Why does this matter? Simple, the Black Stone is an ancient idol that far predates Islam, and the god that Muhammad adopted is none other than the Djin Hubal, who the Hebrews called Ba'al.



> They have great respect for Jesus and his mother, Mary.



Bulshit. They demote the Christian Messiah to a prophet on the level of the Warlord Muhammad.


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## Political Junky (Feb 1, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims worship the same God that Christians worship.
> ...


Did you just make that up?


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## Political Junky (Feb 1, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Here is what Muslims think of Christians.
> 
> Quran 5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.


That sounds like what the Right thinks of Muslims. Just substitute Muslims for Christians and Jews.


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## irosie91 (Feb 1, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



no  Junky--   He got it about right------the meteorite worship precedes islam by
millennia-    HUBAL    aka      BAAL...    Muslims regard muhummad as a prophet
greated than is Jesus


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## Political Junky (Feb 1, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...


Of course Muslims regard Muhammad as a prophet greater than Jesus, but they regard Jesus as a prophet. You don't acknowledge Muhammad at all.


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## irosie91 (Feb 1, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
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roflmao---------right------so Christian dogs should lick muhummad's ass


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## Political Junky (Feb 1, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
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LOL


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## Uncensored2008 (Feb 1, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Did you just make that up?



Are you stupid, or just a liar for Allah?


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## Uncensored2008 (Feb 1, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Of course Muslims regard Muhammad as a prophet greater than Jesus, but they regard Jesus as a prophet. You don't acknowledge Muhammad at all.



Of course I do.

I also acknowledge Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, and Alexander the Great. Muhammad was a vicious and brutal warlord.


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## hobelim (Feb 2, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Of course Muslims regard Muhammad as a prophet greater than Jesus, but they regard Jesus as a prophet. You don't acknowledge Muhammad at all.




By claiming that Mohammed was the last and greatest of God's prophets Muslims are essentially claiming that Mohammed, the proud owner of a 6 year old bride,  was the fulfillment of the second coming of Christ, the first and the last, and the fulfillment of the promise that Jesus made of God sending another prophet, the Spirit of Truth, "who will guide you into all the truth". John 16:7-14,  and by extension was the fulfillment of Jewish Messianic expectations as well.

Thats why some people will never accept that Mohammed was anything other than a false prophet and at best was a delusional megalomaniac with a prediliction for barbarism and misogyny evident in many of those who have surrendered the sanctity of their minds and lives to emulating him and glorifying the source of his hatred and perversions which obviously were not of nor inspired by a holy God..


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## Campbell (Feb 2, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> I say it is not, for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.
> 
> ...



There is no "God Talk!" Men wrote it all and at the same time were uttering, "There's A Sucker Born Every Minute!"


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## Uncensored2008 (Feb 2, 2016)

Campbell said:


> There is no "God Talk!" Men wrote it all and at the same time were uttering, "There's A Sucker Born Every Minute!"



I'll buy you a plane ticket to go argue that directly to ISIS....


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## Political Junky (Feb 2, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > There is no "God Talk!" Men wrote it all and at the same time were uttering, "There's A Sucker Born Every Minute!"
> ...


ISIS kills Muslims. They are an extreme group.


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## irosie91 (Feb 2, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Campbell said:
> ...



nothing extreme about it-----muslims have been killing muslims since the
inception of islam.     Killing a muslim is SPECIFICALLY outlawed by Islamic
law-----HOWEVER---one can kill for CAUSE.    If a muslim can be declared  NOT 
A MUSLIM ----by a finding of  TAKFIR------it is just as legal to kill him (or her)  as it
is to kill a non muslim


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## Uncensored2008 (Feb 2, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> ISIS kills Muslims. They are an extreme group.



The day after the warlord went to his just reward in hell, Muslims started killing each other.

Sunni, Shia, anyone? Bueller?


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## irosie91 (Feb 2, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > ISIS kills Muslims. They are an extreme group.
> ...



Junky does not know-----she is touting partyline


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## Campbell (Feb 2, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Campbell said:
> ...



Surely not.....just because they like to behead people and mistreat women? I'm proud to be an American and the biggest mistakes we've made in the last 15 years was even fucking with them. We should stay at home, mind our own business and let them maim and kill each other.

Just think about it....George W. Bush invaded Iraq...a sovereign nation which had done no harm to the United States, got 4500 of our young people killed and another 35,000 seriously wounded. I won't even mention the trillion dollars he borrowed to fund it....well, I guess I did.


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## Dajjal (Feb 3, 2016)

As far as I am concerned Jesus and Muhammad should not be mentioned in the same breath. Jesus was a great moral teacher, and Muhammad was a warmongering murderer. See the following texts from the bible and Quran.

Jesus from the bible
Matthew 5.43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your *enemies*, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

Muhammad from the Quran.
8.12  Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you:
give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


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## Political Junky (Feb 3, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> As far as I am concerned Jesus and Muhammad should not be mentioned in the same breath. Jesus was a great moral teacher, and Muhammad was a warmongering murderer. See the following texts from the bible and Quran.
> 
> Jesus from the bible
> Matthew 5.43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your *enemies*, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
> ...


Muhammad was about as different from Jesus as the fundamentalist christians are today.


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## Dajjal (Feb 3, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> Muhammad was about as different from Jesus as the fundamentalist christians are today.



Muslims like to claim that Muhammad was mentioned in the bible, and it even says he was in the Quran, but it does not say where. Here is the only truly applicable mention of him in the bible. He was a false prophet.

Matthew 7.15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 7. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?7. 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.


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## Political Junky (Feb 3, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Muhammad was about as different from Jesus as the fundamentalist christians are today.
> ...


Muhammad was born 6 centuries after Jesus.


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## IlarMeilyr (Feb 3, 2016)

The qur'an is a seriously stupid work of self-contradictory fiction laced with hate and so forth.

If God "wrote" that piece of shit, then God must be completely insane.

Since I take it on faith that the Creator of All is not insane, it follows that He had no part in writing the crap we call the Qur'an (or sending it via an Angel to the fuck-wit sociopathic pedophile, MoHamMud).


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## Political Junky (Feb 3, 2016)

IlarMeilyr said:


> The qur'an is a seriously stupid work of self-contradictory fiction laced with hate and so forth.
> 
> If God "wrote" that piece of shit, then God must be completely insane.
> 
> Since I take it on faith that the Creator of All is not insane, it follows that He had no part in writing the crap we call the Qur'an (or sending it via an Angel to the fuck-wit sociopathic pedophile, MoHamMud).


God didn't write the Bible or the Koran, people wrote them.


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## IlarMeilyr (Feb 3, 2016)

Political Junky said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > The qur'an is a seriously stupid work of self-contradictory fiction laced with hate and so forth.
> ...



I don't recall saying, suggesting or implying that God wrote the Bible, either.

But nice of you to share your fantasies as the basis for your meaningless posting efforts.


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## Mudda (Feb 4, 2016)

if, Koran = God's words
then, God = Asshole


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## Dajjal (Jul 3, 2016)

Since I started this thread I have read through the Quran a couple more times, and one thing I noticed was in sura 5.18. This verse says that in the time of Muhammad Jews and Christians all thought they were the sons of God. But Muhammad says, "nay ye are but men".
I think this is possibly the biggest blasphemy he could commit. By denying mans divinity.

The new testament says, "ye are Gods" and Jesus said of his works, "greater things than these shall ye do".
He also said we should pray to 'our father', not his father.


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## irosie91 (Jul 3, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Here is evidence the quran is copied from the bible and other sources.
> 
> The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.
> 
> ...



yes---the koran is full of mangled versions of prior writings---when I first read it----I was 19 or 20   Picthall version-----
I thought the mangled up things were the result of a misprint and candid little idiot that I was---I handed it to a Pakistani and
advised him to notify the printing company


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## irosie91 (Jul 3, 2016)

Buford said:


> Islam is not an Abrahamic religion.  That is a lie promoted by Islam and ignorant people in the media.



It is not clear to me what the term  "Abrahamic religion"  means-----I think the term is used to describe Monotheism.   Muhummad went to a lot of trouble to invent himself as a descendant of
Abraham-------he, or the writers of the koran, invented a lineage
linking him to Ishmael.    It seems to me that muhummad was
very interested in being some kind of "ruler"  by divine appointment------something like the founder of an eternal dynasty


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## Dajjal (Aug 12, 2016)

There may be more mileage in this thread, as there are some new people here.


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## Penelope (Aug 12, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> There may be more mileage in this thread, as there are some new people here.



Have you read any of the history of the jewish tribes in Medina and Mecca. That is probably how Muhammed got his info, also many Christians traveled and traded there. Muhammed pushed monotheism on other Arab tribes, same as the OT, much more infighting among the tribes in the OT.  Remember the Romans had taken over Judea, the wealthy jews chose to leave and many were living in Medina area  and Yemen even  long before the Romans took over..  I believe from what I have read, that the Jews wanted their country back from the Christians, as the Muslims are the ones who fought the Christians and RC and EO for Jerusalem.  The battle of Badr is in the Koran, a fight between Muhammed and the Arabs who wanted to keep their other lesser gods, and Muhammed won. Also then fighting happened between some Jewish tribes and Muslim.  Believe me this is no different , and actually I think the OT is worst as far as the fighting among the tribes and the genocidal actions which they contributed to Yahweh.  I do believe the Jew greatly influenced Muhammed writings, and it even says the holy city belongs to the Jews in the Quran , of which one can read in every article they write about how even the Quran says God gave the Jews the holy city. Also they have (the Jews) have the gentiles worshipping a jew as God. Just saying. Now we once again have the Christians fighting the Muslims.


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