# Does liberty matter anymore?



## dblack (Mar 29, 2016)

Well, does it? 

I'm noticing a trend mocking the concept. Are we 'post-freedom'?


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## Indeependent (Mar 29, 2016)

dblack said:


> Well, does it?
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> I'm noticing a trend mocking the concept. Are we 'post-freedom'?


Have you been incarcerated yet for no reason?
Then freedom probably matters.


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## dblack (Mar 29, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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I spent a weekend in jail for driving without insurance. Does that count?


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## Indeependent (Mar 29, 2016)

dblack said:


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Was that a valid imprisonment?


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## dblack (Mar 29, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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I certainly don't think so. There was no victim. Other than the insurance companies.


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## Indeependent (Mar 29, 2016)

dblack said:


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But the Penal Code applied to you in this circumstance?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 29, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*Reaganomics! Oops...Oct 17,1987!*

What's this all about?


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## defcon4 (Mar 29, 2016)

So far so good.


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## gtopa1 (Mar 29, 2016)

Give me Liberty or give me DEATH!!!

I'm 110% in agreement.

Greg


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## gtopa1 (Mar 29, 2016)

dblack said:


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I was done for a similar offense; no registration or insurance. I simply forgot to pay when they were due and the reminder notice was sent to a previous address. No jail time but a fine equivalent to the payment I missed. Magistrate was very kind that day.

Greg


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 29, 2016)

"Does liberty matter anymore?"

Of course it does.

Last year gay Americans finally realized their comprehensive liberties after years of fighting for their rights; transgender Americans are currently fighting for those same comprehensive protected liberties.

And for millions of other Americans subject to discriminatory measures – or potential discriminatory measures, such as Muslim Americans – liberty indeed very much matters.


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## KokomoJojo (Mar 30, 2016)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Of course it does.
> 
> Last year gay Americans finally realized their comprehensive liberties after years of fighting for their rights; transgende*r Americans are currently fighting for* those same comprehensive protected liberties.
> 
> And for millions of other Americans subject to discriminatory measures – or potential discriminatory measures, such as Muslim Americans – liberty indeed very much matters.



What are you smoking?  Liberties that are *'protected'* do not have to be fought for, and neither would they be under constant attack as they are by the US crookocratic gubmint.


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## thanatos144 (Mar 30, 2016)

I would love to say they matter but people voting for Trump and Hillary say otherwise.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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A date signaling the complete failure of Reaganomics.
Senior Bush continues Reagan's Supply Side Economics and it resulted in off-shored funds being sucked into a vast black hole.
Look it up; otherwise known as Black Friday.
With the exception of the DOT COM Bubble, which wasn't actually a Bubble, the US economy never recovered from Reaganomics.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*
A date signaling the complete failure of Reaganomics.
*
Why do you feel that date signaled anything?

*Senior Bush continues Reagan's Supply Side Economics and it resulted in off-shored funds being sucked into a vast black hole.*

Bush wasn't President in 1987.
*
Look it up; otherwise known as Black Friday.
*
Black Friday was October 25th, 1929. Durr.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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You are correct, it was Reagan.
I worked on Wall Street and witnessed the economic devastation that occurred.
I place it on Oct 17, 1987 because that's when it actually happened.
The "Kings of Finance" worked feverishly to try to fix things over the weekend to avail.

The DOT COM should have succeeded but too many people were too paranoid to use their Credit Cards over the Internet.
The Housing Bubble accompanied by more Supply Side drove us into the 2008 Crash.

Black Monday (1987) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*I worked on Wall Street and witnessed the economic devastation that occurred.
*
What devastation occurred because the stock market crashed in 1987?
*
I place it on Oct 17, 1987 because that's when it actually happened.*

The crash happened on Saturday October 17, 1987?
That's weird, most people who worked in the business remember the actual date.

*The "Kings of Finance" worked feverishly to try to fix things over the weekend to avail.
*
Which "Kings of Finance" worked to try to fix what things over the weekend?
Any specifics?


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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NYC was devastated.
Almost 80% of the stores in downtown Manhattan went under and most new businesses couldn't stay open for more than 6 months.

I worked for Banker's Trust and we already knew Friday evening what had happened but some major Market Makers were going to try to boost some confidence in the Market for Monday morning.
I was told on Monday morning that by Saturday no major Firms were going to bail out any other firms.

I was in IT so I didn't know any big shots personally, but everything in the work place changed after that Saturday.
Especially being made to be at work 16 hours a day even if there was no work to be done.

By the way, Market crashes and Bubbles are insider information which is why the multi-millionaires and billionaires are usually unscathed by crashes and do VERY well in Bubbles.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*
NYC was devastated.
*
By the crash in 1987?

*I worked for Banker's Trust and we already knew Friday evening what had happened
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What happened on Friday?
*
I was told on Monday morning that by Saturday no major Firms were going to bail out any other firms.*

Which firms needed a bail out?
*
but everything in the work place changed after that Saturday.*

On the Saturday that the market crashed?


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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NYC was devastated by the crash in 1987.
On Friday, the Dealers involved in non-US investments were already aware their money was invested in Toxic Instruments.
Almost every Banking Institution had invested in the emerging Global Economy.
Many banks, in fact, collapsed and were merged into the Big 6 or so of today.
Prior to the 1987 crash there were way more banks than Citibank and Chase Manhattan that you could spit out in a sound bite without thinking twice.
The same for the Top 8 Accounting Firms that almost overnight became the Top 4 Accounting Firms.
On Monday morning following the crash virtually all of Manhattan started working way past 9-5.
People were terrified of being laid off due to taking a lunch break.
Fast Food Restaurants, Fine Dining, electronics stores, hardware stores, record stores...all vanished within 3 months.
Manhattan became a ghost town.


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## Desperado (Mar 30, 2016)

Yes you are now guilty till proven innocent.
Go on a plane you are searched
Ladies that go to  a game or a concert have their purses searched
Those searches are unwarranted and unjustified. So to answer you question,
yes we are losing our freedom a little bit at a time


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## Votto (Mar 30, 2016)

Here is the liberal utopia





1.  Free rent and board
2.  Free meals
3.  Free education
4.  Free medical care
5.  Equal rights for all.
6.  No one has to work
7.  Every day is gay pride day.
8.  Gun free zone.  With guards 24/7, who needs a gun?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*
On Friday, the Dealers involved in non-US investments were already aware their money was invested in Toxic Instruments.
*
On which Friday? Be specific.
Toxic instruments? Do you mean stocks?

*Almost every Banking Institution had invested in the emerging Global Economy.
*
We're talking about the US market in 1987. Don't change the subject.
*
Many banks, in fact, collapsed and were merged into the Big 6 or so of today.*

Many banks collapsed because of the crash in October 1987? You have a list?

*The same for the Top 8 Accounting Firms that almost overnight became the Top 4 Accounting Firms.*

The accounting firms collapsed because of the stock market in 1987?

*On Monday morning following the crash virtually all of Manhattan started working way past 9-5.
*
What was the date of this Monday morning after the crash?


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Before we continue, how old are you?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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How old do I need to be to know the stock market didn't do anything on October 17, 1987?


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## foggedinn (Mar 30, 2016)

True liberty requires self sacrifice, not blaming others for your problems.
Learn how to serve.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Friday, October, 16, 1986.
Supply Side Economics is based on the Global Economy.
The US market collapses when excess investment leaves the US to support the non-US Markets that are supplying the US with less expensive goods and services.
Other than Chemical and Banker's Trust, there were a bunch of others whose names I can't recall off hand because I never had my money in them.
There were major banks all over Downtown and Uptown that were swallowed up.
Many Accounting Firms audited these Banks and suddenly there were far fewer Banks that needed fewer Auditors.
Monday, October 19, 1987.

Seriously, if I had blamed a Democratic President for what happened you wouldn't be asking any questions at all.
I'm sure there are lists of those defunct financial institutions on the web.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Obviously, you don't realize that the people who worked for those Banks have always referred to it occurring on October 17, 1987 because that's when we knew the shit hit the fan.
By the way, there ARE markets open on Saturday and I'm sure you full well know that fact.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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You are obviously too young to remember the good old 2nd Reagan Term.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*Friday, October, 16, 1986.
*
1987? Which instruments were toxic?

*Other than Chemical and Banker's Trust, there were a bunch of others whose names I can't recall off hand because I never had my money in them.
*
And you feel they merged of collapsed because of the stock market in Oct 1987?

*Monday, October 19, 1987.*


Yes. Monday. The day the market crashed.
Not Saturday, October 17, 1987, the day the market didn't trade.
Because it's Saturday.
*
Seriously, if I had blamed a Democratic President for what happened you wouldn't be asking any questions at all.
*
Seriously, if you knew the right date for the crash I wouldn't be pointing out your errors.


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## dblack (Mar 30, 2016)

foggedinn said:


> True liberty requires self sacrifice, not blaming others for your problems.
> Learn how to serve.



Which is different than learn how to obey.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*Obviously, you don't realize that the people who worked for those Banks have always referred to it occurring on October 17, 1987 *

No one who worked in the markets at that time refers to the crash as 2 days before it happened.

*because that's when we knew the shit hit the fan*.

The market had peaked at 2722 in August.
Friday, October 16th was the first time the Dow dropped triple digits in one day.
It closed Friday at 2246, down 108 points.
Down about 17% from the peak. And you knew that meant the shit hit the fan? LOL!
I guess on Monday, October 19, 1987, when it went down 508 points, something else hit the fan? 
*
By the way, there ARE markets open on Saturday and I'm sure you full well know that fact.*

Which open markets on Saturday October 17, 1987 crashed so much that they left a bigger impression on you than Black Monday left?


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Seriously, if I even think of the crash occurring on a day after I already knew about it, I would be creeped out.
That's one of the reasons why only the average person gets screwed when Wall Street collapses...they don't know about it until at least a day after everyone working on Wall Street.
You have a point, but just about everybody I know who worked, or works, on Wall Street, never thought about any other date than when they heard the news.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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*
You are obviously too young to remember the good old 2nd Reagan Term.*

And you're too old to remember the Crash.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

Indeependent said:


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You didn't hear the news about the Oct 19th 1987 crash on Oct 17th 1987.


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## foggedinn (Mar 30, 2016)

dblack said:


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Know the will of your master and the two are not in conflict.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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You didn't read the Wikipedia article.
You are so knee jerk Republican you can't even foster the thought that Reagan fucked up the Global Economy.
You do realize that the insiders knew on Saturday they were going pulling out early Monday morning.
You think millions of shares are dumped without mulling it over the day before?
Are you that ignorant of how insiders work?
Perhaps you are.
Banker's Trust knew it on Friday.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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I did...So did Raygun.
So you deny Supply Side failed?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

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*You didn't read the Wikipedia article.
*
You linked an article I was supposed to read?
Did the article mention the date of the crash was not a Saturday? LOL!

*You do realize that the insiders knew on Saturday they were going pulling out early Monday morning.
*
You do realize that some people knew on Saturday they were going to buy after the big drop on Friday.

*Are you that ignorant of how insiders work?
*
Are you ignorant of the date of the Crash?


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Black Monday: The Stock Market Crash of 1987 - A detailed essay on an important event in the history of the Federal Reserve.

Check out "Oct 17".
Every insider knew what was coming.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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I ask again...Are you denying the crash due to Supply Side?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

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You heard 2 days before the
Crash about the Crash?

Shit, you must have made millions.

*So you deny Supply Side failed?
*
Supply side led to a long term economic expansion in the US. Very successful.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

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Yes, I deny that the October 19, 1987 stock market crash was due to Supply Side economics.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

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Bull...the US economy only started picking up 11 years later due to Y2K and the DOT COM.
Republican screw ups don't register in your brain.


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## Indeependent (Mar 30, 2016)

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I accept your right to be blinded by your Ideology.
I'm waiting for you to blame it on Carter.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 30, 2016)

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Right. Between Jan 1981 and Jan 1989, real US GDP only grew about 33%.
Darn Republican screw ups. Durr.


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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GDP is a Rush Limbaugh Rolled-Up gimmick.
The average schmuck on Wall Street got a pay cut and had their work hours tripled.
I hope GDP isn't the best weapon in your argument arsenal.


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## dblack (Mar 31, 2016)

I haven't really been tracking the Reaganomics debate, but I'm wondering what you think it has to do with liberty? I'm not complaining about OT discussion, just curious.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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*GDP is a Rush Limbaugh Rolled-Up gimmick.*

GDP is a gimmick? Why?
*
The average schmuck on Wall Street got a pay cut and had their work hours tripled.
*
The 1987 crash was more than 28 years ago. Are Wall Streeters still working triple hours?
Or are you whining that you had to work longer hours for a week or two?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

dblack said:


> I haven't really been tracking the Reaganomics debate, but I'm wondering what you think it has to do with liberty? I'm not complaining about OT discussion, just curious.



I noticed Indeependent had the wrong date for the 1987 stock market crash in his tagline, and I've been tweaking him ever since.


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## Votto (Mar 31, 2016)

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I remember when Reaganomics used to be called "voodoo economics".  However, today you hear none of that.  It's as if running trillion dollar deficits is logical and normal.  It's as if nothing ill can ever come from it.

My only question is, how do they keep inflation down?  It really is voodoo to me.


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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Put Bill Gates in a room with 20 people making 60K a year and what's the average annual salary.
That's the Republican bullshit logic of how well everyone's doing.
You're a Conservative robot touting proven failures by using statistics.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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*Put Bill Gates in a room with 20 people making 60K a year and what's the average annual salary.*

About $57,143

Are Wall Streeters still working triple hours?
Or are you whining that you had to work longer hours for a week or two?


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## I amso IR (Mar 31, 2016)

BORING!


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## jillian (Mar 31, 2016)

dblack said:


> Well, does it?
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> I'm noticing a trend mocking the concept. Are we 'post-freedom'?



your freedom ends at the tip of my nose


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## jillian (Mar 31, 2016)

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that's false... it would be the "mean" salary. not the "average" salary.

average salary adds together bill's salary along with the salary of the 20 others and divides by 21.

your average salary is the resulting number.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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*that's false... it would be the "mean" salary. not the "average" salary.*

Mean and average are the same.
*
average salary adds together bill's salary along with the salary of the 20 others and divides by 21.
*
That's what I did.


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## dblack (Mar 31, 2016)

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Well, then we agree. But from some of your posts, it seems you have a rather outsized conception of the size of your nose.


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## jillian (Mar 31, 2016)

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no, it isn't or it would have been millions per person as the average.

Average wages, median wages, and wage dispersion


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## jillian (Mar 31, 2016)

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no. I suspect you'd prefer your "liberty" means you don't have to live like a grown up and suck up things that offend you....


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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*no, it isn't or it would have been millions per person as the average.*

What do you think Bill Gates' salary was last year?


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## Agit8r (Mar 31, 2016)

Well, the GOP seems to dropped it as a talking point.


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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Bullcrap.
Supply Side has resulted in Illegals, Business Visas replacing Physicians and the closing of tens of thousands of factories.
The average White Collar professional on Wall Street has not seen a wage increase anywhere near the average Wall Street CEO.
By your postings, I can see you have never worked for a Fortune 500 Company whose main purpose is Institutional Trading.


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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Probably $0.00 as he hasn't worked a day since 1998.
He simply uses his 80+billion in Assets to run Congress.


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## jillian (Mar 31, 2016)

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that's funny given the level of the Koch brothers' investment in running the rightwingnuts. gates generally concerns himself with global health and education.

oh no! the horror.

and he has income.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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You finally got one right. He never drew a salary.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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Are Wall Streeters still working triple hours?
Or are you whining that you had to work longer hours for a week or two?


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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Your straw man postings ignore the fact that Reagan was very much at the helm on Black Monday and you surely lack the knowledge to know his Supply Side Economics were directly responsible for the crash.
And your use of GDP, a snapshot statistic that omits all the ugly details, is a bad neo-Con joke that nobody falls for anymore.

Your straw man postings also ignore Illegals, Business Visas taking millions of jobs away and off-shoring our production.
In other words, your Economic acumen is less than impressive.
Keep in mind that the Business Visas are now the one working triple hours for 1/4 the pay of the people they replace.


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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If you focus on Bill Gates, you will discover his "Global" concerns are almost all exclusively in India and the African continent, 2 major sources of low wage labor Mr. Gates has spent 2 decade trying to inundate US shores with.
Gates is no saint; in fact, he's a complete scumbag.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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*Your straw man postings ignore the fact that Reagan was very much at the helm on Black Monday
*
Yes, Reagan was President on October 19, 1987, the day of the crash.

*you surely lack the knowledge to know his Supply Side Economics were directly responsible for the crash.*

Prove it.

*And your use of GDP, a snapshot statistic that......*

That shows supply side was a success.
*
In other words, your Economic acumen is less than impressive.
*
I'm still waiting to hear about your triple hours.

*Keep in mind that the Business Visas are now the one working triple hours for 1/4 the pay of the people they replace.*

Snap out of it, we're talking about events in 1987, not stuff going on today.


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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Thank you for ignoring my entire post BECAUSE...
R = GOOD and D = BAD

And people wonder why Trump is destroying the Supply Side Clowns


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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I'm not ignoring your post, just asking you to prove your claims.
You keep failing.
Based on your feeling that the market crashed on a Saturday, I shouldn't be surprised.


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## Indeependent (Mar 31, 2016)

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My final response to you on this thread...
If I have to prove the problems being caused by Supply Side Economics you've got a major IQ problem.
As I've said in a prior posting, R = GOOD, D = BAD.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 31, 2016)

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The Dow closed at 1895 on Dec 31st 1986. Peaked on August 25th, 1987 when it closed at 2722.
Ended 1987 at 1938.

Yeah, that must have been Supply Side Economics. LOL!

Are you going to change your tagline to the real date of the crash, or continue to broadcast your stupidity?


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## KokomoJojo (Apr 8, 2016)

Liberty?  Matter?  Nothing comes between the gubmint and their makin money from the guberned!


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## Abishai100 (Apr 21, 2016)

*The Mirror Trick: Liberty's Kids*

Imagining an A-list American celebrity portray the pioneering escape-artist/entertainer Harry Houdini makes me feel optimistic that a deranged horror/crime film copycat doesn't kill someone like Tom Cruise this Halloween.

Halloween does, after all, signify a modern age civilization focus on the face-recognition intrigue associated with identity mercantilism (i.e., eBay merchant listings) in a globalization-invented multi-cultural populace.

If computers across the Internet are connected in a virtual/electronic 'telepathic' network, then maybe the media (i.e., TV, movies, news) is the modern age illusion-bazaar.

"_I, Michael Myers, intend to kill Tom Cruise this Halloween if America does not improve its sensitivity to racism_!"

Incidentally, Tom Cruise was to portray Houdini in a film.  I was hoping an eccentric film-maker such as Tim Burton or Wes Andersen would be interested in such a project or maybe even a dramatism-crafty film-maker such as M. Night Shyamalan or Paul Schrader.



*Harry Houdini*


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## sstai (May 3, 2016)

IT definitely matters. We live in a time where people are fighting to suppress other people's beliefs if they aren't popular or politically correct. Freedom and liberty are very important. As the saying goes, you can't enjoy victory if you have never suffered defeat. Many people will not truly enjoy the liberty they have until they have a chance to live without it. 

But, I will say there are trends in our culture that show people are trying to play down the words liberty and freedom, and replace them with acceptance and tolerance. But, make no mistake, those words are just a clever way to get the masses to give up some of their liberty and freedom.


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