# Two Ways to Help Stop Mass Shootings



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.

Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

You know that won't fly. So why do you suggest it? It doesn't do anything except inflame already agitated emotions on the subject.


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## OhPleaseJustQuit (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of* assault rifle*. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


What's an assault rifle?


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## EvilCat Breath (May 27, 2022)

The NRA is one of the great American institutions.  I am proud to be a member.


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## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> You know that won't fly. So why do you suggest it? It doesn't do anything except inflame already agitated emotions on the subject.


It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?


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## Leweman (May 27, 2022)

Can't accept any money from teacher unions either or pharmaceutical companies.  Talk about dangerous.


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## progressive hunter (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


what do you mean by assault rifle??

any rifle is an assault rifle if thats what you use it for,,


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## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

EvilCat Breath said:


> The NRA is one of the great American institutions.  I am proud to be a member.


That tells me a lot about you, EvilCat Breath.


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## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

OhPleaseJustQuit said:


> What's an assault rifle?


It's what mass shooters usually use to kill people.


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?



You wanting it to happen won't make it happen.

Try proposing something that makes more sense.

Things like mandatory gun safety training and psychological evaluations for every gun/rifle applicant.

Things like metal detectors at every point of entry in a school building. Eliminating choke points or 'funnels' where panicked students and teachers may become easy prey for mass murderers. Things like emergency response and active shooter training for teachers, arming teachers, outfitting them with bulletproof vests, defensive implements like door bars, one-way automated door locks.

Yanno, things that make sense. Anything but this tripe.


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## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Leweman said:


> Can't accept any money from teacher unions either or pharmaceutical companies.  Talk about dangerous.


Thank you for that attempted deflection.


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## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> You wanting it to happen won't make it happen.
> 
> Try proposing something that makes more sense.
> 
> ...


IF all these things had been in place at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would it have saved any of those 19 kids and 2 teachers lives? *NO.*


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## Vrenn (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



I don't agree with what you are saying.  Well, not all the way, that is.  What we need to do is to return the NRA back into the Non Profit it used to be.  It did a lot of good and didn't make many donations to Politicoes.  They were too busy teaching gun safety, hunting and fishing and all that.  Then it was outright purchased by the Firearms Manufacturers and here we are today.  It's now two parts and only one is what is left of the old Non Profit.  

I don't think we need to outlaw "Assault Rifles" like the AR and the like.  What we can do is treat them like we did the M1921 Thompson in 1934.  People that are registered or EFA Licensees are NOT the problem.  Anymore than the people with the CCW Licenses are with the handguns.  Make the AR and the like have to be registered, stored properly and handled properly under the 1934 National Firearms Act.  200 bucks to register yourself and another 200 bucks to register the AR really isn't out of the question.


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## Leweman (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you for that attempted deflection.


Why?  There is far more money involved in those lobbyist compared to the NRA.  Is there an abortion lobby?  I'm not even sure but if we are trying to stop deaths then for sure got to make that one illegal too.  I agree with you.    Of course guns save lives pretty often.  Not sure abortion ever saves lives.


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## Hellbilly (May 27, 2022)

It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.


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## Circe (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.


Do you understand that this is exactly why men buy them? 

They are expecting invasions and rioting.


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## deannalw (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*




Let's say we've finally determined what make a rifle an assault rifle. Even though we haven't

Are you aware of all the different types of handguns that are capable of killing just as many people in the same amount of time?

So we gotta ban this gun and then that gun too and pretty soon...

It doesn't matter what you feel I need, to hunt, target shoot or use for a walking stick. I have the right to own the guns I have and your feels don't make it wrong.

This kind of over the top pleading and drama does no one any good.


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> IF all these things had been in place at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would it have saved any of those 19 kids and 2 teachers lives? *NO.*


*YES!*

ABSOLUTELY!

Any successful hindrance between the killer and the children would have saved lives!

How utterly foolish.


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## Damaged Eagle (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.



*"All politicians should be barred from accepting donations from any business or other organization."*

There fixed it for you



Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.



What's an assault rifle?



Ms. Turquoise said:


> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



By psychotic mental idiots who should have been institutionalized but were only "watched" and allowed to commit the horrendous act of violence by a government seeking more control.





BTW... The unborn can't vote and don't have a voice either but are condemned to death by unsympathetic women who only desire convenience.

*****SMILE*****


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## deannalw (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.




You're a fuckin piece of work.


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.


Tell that to the mothers and fathers who arm themselves to defend their children from home invaders.


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## Confederate Soldier (May 27, 2022)

Criminals LOVE black markets, it is known that most guns used in crimes are in fact stolen, and not legally purchased.


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## Leweman (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Tell that to the mothers and fathers who arm themselves to defend their children from home invaders.


They think protection using guns doesn't exist.  They think everyone should be using a board with a nail in it.


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## Hellbilly (May 27, 2022)

deannalw said:


> You're a fuckin piece of work.


Please explain how I am wrong.


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Leweman said:


> They think protection using guns doesn't exist.  They think everyone should be using a board with a nail in it.


Yeah, essentially.


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## deannalw (May 27, 2022)

Circe said:


> Do you understand that this is exactly why men buy them?
> 
> They are expecting invasions and rioting.




There are a lot of reasons why folks buy guns. 

In my house, James takes self protection very seriously. And protecting me even more seriously, lol. But he also has a great time doing competition shooting and we both enjoy plinking about at targets out back. 

We live out in the boonies- it seems there's always some predator running about trying to wreck the place or eat our cats and dogs. A couple years ago there was a pack of dogs running wild. They were trying to get the smaller, older cows belonging to the fella across the way. They tore the ass end of two calves so badly they had to be put down, so he and James went on the defense and shot the damn things. Sad but necessary.

I bought my own first gun when crime got to be so out of control it was dangerous. Then I bought some more because I really enjoy shooting.


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> Please explain how I am wrong.





TemplarKormac said:


> Tell that to the mothers and fathers who arm themselves to defend their children from home invaders.


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## deannalw (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> Please explain how I am wrong.




If I have to explain it, you're too close-minded or stupid to comprehend it at all.

That shit about gun owners caring more about their gun rights than the lives of children is 100% pure bullshit. It's the hyper whine of the far left loons that does zilch to encourage solutions or helping to bring us to a united front against an important matter we ALL care about.

Fuckin troll


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## Hellbilly (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Tell that to the mothers and fathers who arm themselves to defend their children from home invaders.


Obviously I wasn’t referring to them. Do mass shooters break into peoples houses often?


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## Hellbilly (May 27, 2022)

deannalw said:


> If I have to explain it, you're too close-minded or stupid to comprehend it at all.
> 
> That shit about gun owners caring more about their gun rights than the lives of children is 100% pure bullshit. It's the hyper whine of the far left loons that does zilch to encourage solutions or helping to bring us to a united front against an important matter we ALL care about.
> 
> Fuckin troll


2.


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## ReinyDays (May 27, 2022)

Besides the obvious constitutional issues ... none of this solves the underlying problem ... mental health issues ...

We've put 12-foot chain linked fencing around our airports and stationed armed guards to protect airplanes ... and we don't see children being shot to death in these facilities ... we also don't see children murdered by guns in gun shops or gun shows where there's an abundance of guns and gun-nuts ... we might not see the cause-and-effect in these places ... but we should probably try ...

{shrugs shoulders} ... Israel uses fencing around their schools with armed checkpoints to get in or out ... the Jews have some kind of "religious virtue" about protecting their children or something ... America values a jet airliner more than a kid, gotta love them cheap ticket prices ...


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## Circe (May 27, 2022)

deannalw said:


> There are a lot of reasons why folks buy guns.
> 
> In my house, James takes self protection very seriously. And protecting me even more seriously, lol. But he also has a great time doing competition shooting and we both enjoy plinking about at targets out back.
> 
> ...


See, you are the only person on this forum who really understands country living, except for me.

I've killed a lot of things with guns over the years ----- but never humans. That raccoon killing the kittens! That deer hit by a car that struggled down by the main gate. You might or might not be surprised at the number of HUGE hornet nests hanging right over the garden, on the yard fence, and over the pony barn thru the years (in that case, time to bring out the shotgun). There are limits --- can't reliably kill large livestock even when they need it, have to call the vet. And when we saw the young bear last summer, we wondered. The one thing you never, never do is call Animal Control ------ they always side with the predator, never with you. But the bear got hit on I-95, so that's all right. (They eat your birdseed -------- feeder and all.)


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## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?



Kids are dying for a lot of reasons.  Like woke schools not working with local law enforcement to charge kids for threatening to shoot up a school, like the kid that shot up the Buffalo grocery.  Or friends, parents, teachers not coordinating on kids with signs of potential violence.  

*A more REALISTIC gun law that WOULD get broad acceptance from Americans would be to raise the legal age for purchase to 21 for rifles with clips or magazines.* No NEED to ban what you call "assault weapons".  You couldn't even define what that is. 

And the sad part is - when it's kids killing kids -- is that what I suggested is ONLY necessary because kids are stuck "in the MetaVerse" and dont grow up in real life anymore. Many haven't matured enough by 18 like it USED to be.


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## Circe (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> Obviously I wasn’t referring to them. Do mass shooters break into peoples houses often?


Yeah ----- there have been some cases this spring, who was that guy who went to various relatives houses and killed them all? Actually, that's pretty common.


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> Obviously I wasn’t referring to them. Do mass shooters break into peoples houses often?


Yeah, you were. You were referring to anyone who values their 2nd Amendment rights.


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## Circe (May 27, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> *A more REALISTIC gun law that WOULD get broad acceptance from Americans would be to raise the legal age for purchase to 21 for rifles with clips or magazines.* No NEED to ban what you call "assault weapons".  You couldn't even define what that is.


I'd be okay with that. Kids are NOTNOTNOT adults at 18! Darn, I think it took me several decades longer than that to grow up. 

Okay, I know, now everybody on the Right hates me.


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## buttercup (May 27, 2022)

Useful idiots. So many useful idiots. It’s no wonder we’re losing our country, when you have so many ignorant fools who are constantly manipulated into handing over all of our rights.

problem – reaction – solution.


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## Hellbilly (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Yeah, you were.


3.


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## Damaged Eagle (May 27, 2022)

Throw the teachers, school administrators, police, FBI, etc,... who didn't do their job, by putting these nut case mass shooters in mental institutions, in jail with huge fines.

*****SMILE*****


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## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

You can raise the age for firearms just as soon as you no longer allow the 18 19 and 20 year old in the military and vote.


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## CrusaderFrank (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


We need "common sense" gun laws like Hitler, Stalin and Mao where only the government Good Guys had the guns! No school shootings there


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## westwall (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> IF all these things had been in place at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would it have saved any of those 19 kids and 2 teachers lives? *NO.*





If the door had been LOCKED, it wouldn't have happened,  you loon.


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

It could have been as something as simple as locking a door. That would have been it.


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## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

westwall said:


> If the door had been LOCKED, it wouldn't have happened,  you loon.



Man, it's really annoying when the REASON 19 KIDS ARE BLOWN TO PIECES BY A GUNMAN is because someone forgot to lock the classroom door.  I hope the teacher responsible is hauled before a court and held accountable for their crimes! 

We need to MANDATE LOCKED DOORS IN SCHOOLS.  It's literally the ONLY WAY TO STOP MASS SLAUGHTER IN AMERICA.

But, on the plus side we get another great example of how guns keep us free here!


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## westwall (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Man, it's really annoying when the REASON 19 KIDS ARE BLOWN TO PIECES BY A GUNMAN is because someone forgot to lock the classroom door.  I hope the teacher responsible is hauled before a court and held accountable for their crimes!
> 
> We need to MANDATE LOCKED DOORS IN SCHOOLS.  It's literally the ONLY WAY TO STOP MASS SLAUGHTER IN AMERICA.
> 
> But, on the plus side we get another great example of how guns keep us free here!





A teacher propped the door open, dumbass.  Against protocol.

DURRRRRR


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## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> We need "common sense" gun laws like Hitler, Stalin and Mao where only the government Good Guys had the guns! No school shootings there



And do you think that modern day Norway, UK, Sweden, Japan are all vicious dictator states? They don't have this level of mass shootings so OBVIOUSLY they must be.

I feel sorry for them not having dead kids all the time to help then understand what TRUE FREEDOM looks like.


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## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

westwall said:


> A teacher propped the door open, dumbass.  Against protocol.
> 
> DURRRRRR



Then that teacher should be sent to PRISON for causing all those deaths!


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## Peace (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


My shotgun is classified as a assault weapon, so you have a large list of firearms that would be restricted that shouldn’t be…


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## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

So, I'm wondering, how would raising the age limit on long guns end crimes like this?

It would just be another law the killer would refuse to obey, by getting an illegal long gun as opposed to buying one legally.

The age limit on handguns is already 21, but murders in this country go on unabated regardless of the age.


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## Circe (May 27, 2022)

westwall said:


> A teacher propped the door open, dumbass.  Against protocol.
> 
> DURRRRRR


Sometimes in life we make an oopsy -------------


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## westwall (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Then that teacher should be sent to PRISON for causing all those deaths!





How about they follow the rules.  Rules that are in place for a reason.

Either way the crazy tranny is the guilty party, and like clockwork you morons wish to punish a hundred million people for the actions of a few crazy people. 

People that the "authorities " refuse to deal with despite having the tools they need to do so.


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## westwall (May 27, 2022)

Circe said:


> Sometimes in life we make an oopsy -------------





Sad, but true.


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## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



Kids in schools are usually shot by other kids.  I gave a gun law solution to that above.

Semi-automatic rifles sold publicly are not military grade.  The shooter in Las Vegas brought 6 of them with him because he had modified them to be MORE like an automatic military grade weapon.  When they stormed his hotel suite -- they found 2 or 3 of them COMPLETELY ruined with the barrels melted and jammed up.  AR does not stand for "assault rifle" -- look it up.  

They are neccessary for personal defense of life and property.  During rioting, massive looting, or home assault with multiple persons involved.  The police INCREASINGLY refuse to protect property in rioting and looting. And home assault and angry mobs outside your doors are on the increase. AND of course to protect against tyrannical governments.  The types that think a "Disinformation Board" is a GREAT idea or call parents terrorists for yelling at a school board meeting. 

As for LOBBYING - which is where all the money flows -- Banning ONE representative of the people on gun rights and not the OPPONENTS of gun rights would be Unconstitutional.  

The NRA IS people. PEOPLE fund them to tell the truth about crime/gun policy and make voices heard.  Contributions from members are speech. * Beats having 80Million  LEGAL RESPONSIBLE gun owners marching armed on the Capitol mall -- doesn't it? *


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## Peace (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> So, I'm wondering, how would raising the age limit on long guns end crimes like this?
> 
> It would just be another law the killer would refuse to obey, by getting an illegal long gun as opposed to buying one legally.
> 
> The age limit on handguns is already 21, but murders in this country go on unabated regardless of the age.


You know I believe the legal age should be 25 for everything including the Military…

Will it stop mass shootings?

No…

By no means…

That has be dealt with stopping the Media from making this into a movie scene, people being held responsible for their kids and the Government stop the war between political parties and working together…

Sad part most of us here ( most not all ) could come up with better solutions than what we get from the fools that milk us for a money…


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## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> *YES!*
> 
> ABSOLUTELY!
> 
> ...



Should be at least TWO SROfficers at every school. One at the cam console and one always OUTSIDE.  THAT is a commentary on kids themselves likely being MOST school shooters. HERE in Uvalde -- the ONE wasn't even on premises.  We CAN afford to do that.  Also make the school is REPORTING ASSAULTS/THREATS to local authorities.  Need to DOCUMENT the warnings signs of aggression going nuclear.


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## Flash (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


You are confused Moon Bat.

You may not know this but the NRA did not do any of the mass shooting.

As far as we know none of the mass shooters have ever been a member of the NRA.

However, we do know that the mass shooter that shot up the Republicans practicing baseball was a Hillary Clinton supporter and a Democrat. 

You also may not know this but this country has a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms and the AR-15 is protected as a common use firearm.   A 5th District Appeals judge just said that. _ Heller_ confirms it.  Even _Miller_ said that the guns in common use by the military is protected.

You stupid uneducated Moon Bats are way off course.

This little shithead that did the shooting was abandoned by his parents and had no moral foundation.  The parents are to blame for not doing their duty to raise their son to not kill children.

Of course you stupid uneducated Moon Bats have no understanding of the concept of personal responsibility, do you?

Shame on you!


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## Flash (May 27, 2022)

EvilCat Breath said:


> The NRA is one of the great American institutions.  I am proud to be a member.


I am a Life Member but I am not proud of it because of the corruption of the upper leadership.

I support GOA now.


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## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> So, I'm wondering, how would raising the age limit on long guns end crimes like this?
> 
> It would just be another law the killer would refuse to obey, by getting an illegal long gun as opposed to buying one legally.
> 
> The age limit on handguns is already 21, but murders in this country go on unabated regardless of the age.



It pains me to say it -- *but I cannot BEAR the grief to know that a TROUBLED teen with obvious warning signs CAN LEGALLY purchase and own. * But all this is because of societal/family/moral decay and the fact that people are not doing their jobs. 

If the teen STOLE the weapon from parents and parents KNEW or if the parents PURCHASED the weapon for a kid that was under psychiatric care (like the shooter Sandy Hook school)  --* I dont feel a lot of personal responsibility to change gun laws.*  Just use the law -- HOLD these parents responsible. 

*Parents ALSO need that leverage.* As dealing with mental case child is difficult enough with the cutting/suicide/outbursts/conflict without having to ASSURE this future criminal doesn't LEGALLY obtain firearms.


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## Flash (May 27, 2022)

Circe said:


> I'd be okay with that. Kids are NOTNOTNOT adults at 18!


When I was 18 I was using a gun in a war.  

Kyle Rittenhouse was 17 when he effectively used an AR to defend his life.


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## Sunsettommy (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's what mass shooters usually use to kill people.



What is assault RIFLE?


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## EvilCat Breath (May 27, 2022)

Flash said:


> You are confused Moon Bat.⁹As far as we know none of the mass shooters have ever been a member of the NRA.
> 
> 
> However, we do know that the mass shooter that shot up the Republicans practicing baseball was a Hillary Clinton supporter and a Democrat.
> ...



Mother is a druggie.  Father is unknown.  Grandpa is a convicted felon.  Salvador has been talking about shooting up a school since he was 14.


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## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Man, it's really annoying when the REASON 19 KIDS ARE BLOWN TO PIECES BY A GUNMAN is because someone forgot to lock the classroom door.  I hope the teacher responsible is hauled before a court and held accountable for their crimes!
> 
> We need to MANDATE LOCKED DOORS IN SCHOOLS.  It's literally the ONLY WAY TO STOP MASS SLAUGHTER IN AMERICA.
> 
> But, on the plus side we get another great example of how guns keep us free here!



Hey trollfish -- It's ALREADY MANDATED in most states that *outside* doors remain locked during classes. And it's drilled into teachers to LOCK the classroom doors when any intrusion alarm is given. 

That's why they call it a "LOCK DOWN" alert that goes out to the schools automatically bullwinkle.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 27, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Should be at least TWO SROfficers at every school. One at the cam console and one always OUTSIDE.  THAT is a commentary on kids themselves likely being MOST school shooters. HERE in Uvalde -- the ONE wasn't even on premises.  We CAN afford to do that.  Also make the school is REPORTING ASSAULTS/THREATS to local authorities.  Need to DOCUMENT the warnings signs of aggression going nuclear.



Some of that $40 BILLION that was sent so quickly to Ukraine who are losing the war could have been better allocated to the schools instead for support and for small town police be better equipped to handle the terror problem.

But that doesn't seem to be important to lawmakers who prefer screaming at the NRA, Trump and republicans in general.

Government is the problem.


----------



## Hellbilly (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Tell that to the mothers and fathers who arm themselves to defend their children from home invaders.


Tell that to Bootney Lee Farnsworth who said:


> Nothing would please me more that to watch your complete meltdown when the SC shoots down all federal gun laws.
> 
> Machine guns or Valhalla.


doesn't that sound to you like he thinks gun rights are more important than kids lives, cause it sure does to me.


----------



## skews13 (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That tells me a lot about you, EvilCat Breath.


----------



## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> Tell that to Bootney Lee Farnsworth who said:
> 
> doesn't that sound to you like he thinks gun rights are more important than kids lives, cause it sure does to me.



Actually, I'm talking to you at this point.

However, it is your mistake if you assume that is the consensus opinion among people who value their 2nd Amendment rights.


----------



## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

skews13 said:


> View attachment 650652


(Draws picture of a schoolhouse)
(Draws a gun-free zone sign in front of it)
(Draws prominent democratic figures standing in the hollowed-out form)
(Caption: Let's do this for the children!)


----------



## Circe (May 27, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> It pains me to say it -- *but I cannot BEAR the grief to know that a TROUBLED teen with obvious warning signs CAN LEGALLY purchase and own. * But all this is because of societal/family/moral decay and the fact that people are not doing their jobs.
> 
> If the teen STOLE the weapon from parents and parents KNEW or if the parents PURCHASED the weapon for a kid that was under psychiatric care (like the shooter Sandy Hook school)  --* I dont feel a lot of personal responsibility to change gun laws.*  Just use the law -- HOLD these parents responsible.
> 
> *Parents ALSO need that leverage.* As dealing with mental case child is difficult enough with the cutting/suicide/outbursts/conflict without having to ASSURE this future criminal doesn't LEGALLY obtain firearms.


Excellent post, IMO. Remember that it happens fast, fast, fast sometimes ----- remember the Batman killer? He went from a reasonably normal college student to weeks later that whirling-eyed character in the black rubber costume with his apartment all wired to blow up after he shot people in the movie theater ----- I think of these crazies and how fast they go downhill, it's terrible and so sad for the family. 

I had an aunt, she went crazy WELL before I was around (and well before WWII) but she was sent to college, very promising, very smart, and was brought back by a wonderfully upright and conscientious boyfriend who brought her home by train, completely mute and catatonic. My grandfather, I hear, never accepted what was obvious to both his physician sons, but just said she'd had a breakdown and would be fine soon, but of course, not so --- she spent her life in mental hospitals until the psychotropics were developed and then lived independently for a few years at the end (huh, probably at the sons' expense!! I never thought of that till now), but she was always ------ strange. And drugged, and sleeping at Thanksgivings. Well, it never showed up again in the family, but don't think we haven't worried!


----------



## Hellbilly (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Actually, I'm talking to you at this point.
> 
> However, it is your mistake if you assume that is the consensus opinion among people who value their 2nd Amendment rights.


I base my opinion on what I see. I never said is the consensus opinion. What I said was some people think that.


----------



## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> I base my opinion on what I see. I never said is the consensus opinion. What I said was some people think that.


On this board, people make broad, generalistic opinions about other people and groups of people. Myself included. 

So I'll take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Hey trollfish -- It's ALREADY MANDATED in most states that *outside* doors remain locked during classes. And it's drilled into teachers to LOCK the classroom doors when any intrusion alarm is given.



So, like I said, the person responsible for not closing and locking the door must be brought to justice as soon as humanly possible.  



flacaltenn said:


> That's why they call it a "LOCK DOWN" alert that goes out to the schools automatically bullwinkle.



When I was a kid there was no such thing.  I tell you it was HORRIBLE living in America in the 1970's.  We didn't know what TRUE freedom was!  Hardened schools, churches with armed guards, teachers armed and ready to cap an evil doer.  It was just terrible.  We were so un-free back then. 

Thank GOD we know freedom now. 

I just hope they catch the person responsible for not locking that door.  There's the REAL criminal.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> It pains me to say it -- *but I cannot BEAR the grief to know that a TROUBLED teen with obvious warning signs CAN LEGALLY purchase and own. * But all this is because of societal/family/moral decay and the fact that people are not doing their jobs.



True to a greater or lesser point.  Society here in America didn't sign up to take care of others.  If this kid's family couldn't afford good mental health care for their troubled son then it's THEIR FAULT.  They should have made more $$$ to afford healthcare so their son might have had a chance of being stopped.

But, alas, the family didn't make enough money or they didn't pursue the mental healthcare so maybe we should haul all the surviving members of that family into court and put THEM on trial.



flacaltenn said:


> If the teen STOLE the weapon from parents and parents KNEW or if the parents PURCHASED the weapon for a kid that was under psychiatric care (like the shooter Sandy Hook school)  --* I dont feel a lot of personal responsibility to change gun laws.*  Just use the law -- HOLD these parents responsible.



That's actually not a bad idea.  It might then give people pause for having guns in their homes because someone might use it for ill.  That's what the studies keep showing.

But if Americans didn't buy guns crime would sweep the nation and a vicious murdering dictator would come to the fore and enslave us all.  

In the end there isn't really a good answer.  We just need the guns for our freedom.  We don't need 3rd graders for our freedom.



flacaltenn said:


> *Parents ALSO need that leverage.* As dealing with mental case child is difficult enough with the cutting/suicide/outbursts/conflict without having to ASSURE this future criminal doesn't LEGALLY obtain firearms.



The NRA and other gun advocates are truly leading the charge in improving mental healthcare in America.  They talk about it so much I'm CERTAIN they are paying extra for their guns so that a fund can be set up to improve mental healthcare in America.

I am glad they are doing their part.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Circe said:


> Do you understand that this is exactly why men buy them?
> 
> They are expecting invasions and rioting.


That is a sorry excuse to have one of those guns. Who are they expecting an invasion from? As for rioting, are they planning to take their guns out a la Kyle Rittenhouse, to "defend" themselves, when all they need to do is stay home?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Damaged Eagle said:


> *"All politicians should be barred from accepting donations from any business or other organization."*
> 
> There fixed it for you
> 
> ...


Yes, yes. Let's save the babies while they are in the womb, but once they are in school, let's make it easy for them to be killed.
Makes perfect sense.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That is a sorry excuse to have one of those guns. Who are they expecting an invasion from? As for rioting, are they planning to take their guns out a la Kyle Rittenhouse, to "defend" themselves, when all they need to do is stay home?



For many the threat of invasion is everpresent.  Sometimes the invasion comes in the form of a lost exchange student looking for directions like Yoshihiro Hattori, sometimes it's in the form of a family member coming home late.

It's critical to America's freedom that we be able to protect ourselves from all these dangers (and 3rd graders apparently).  Guns ENSURE America's continued freedom.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> What is assault RIFLE?


Google it.


----------



## Circe (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That is a sorry excuse to have one of those guns. Who are they expecting an invasion from? As for rioting, are they planning to take their guns out a la Kyle Rittenhouse, to "defend" themselves, when all they need to do is stay home?


No, blacks, of course. Blacks marching down the road, taking out whomever on their way. Think not? Not many people read about the French and Russian and all the other revolutions as I do: mass killings are the norm. _A la lanternes! _ They hanged them on the street lanterns in Paris, the bakers. The National Convention kept begging the mob not to do that, bad response to the bread shortage, but they kept on and then invaded the National Convention and threatened to kill them all. When we are all disarmed, this will be the norm, I think, just as in Britain now, and leftists and their children will be killed just like rightists.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Tell that to the mothers and fathers who arm themselves to defend their children from home invaders.


An AR-15 wouldn't be necessary to protect your home/life.
A regular shotgun would suffice.


----------



## Briss (May 27, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> What is assault RIFLE?


It's a rifle with multiple firing settings.  As such, the civilian version of the AR-15 is not an assault weapon. Nevertheless, lots of people are easily influenced by appearances.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

OhPleaseJustQuit said:


> What's an assault rifle?



I understand that essentially the AR-15 isn't much more than less intimidating looking semi-automatics on the market including some hunting rifles.  It's just tricked out to look more "cool" and "military" but not functionally different.

As such I kind of see the point that banning "assault rifles" isn't necessarily going to move the needle since similar firepower can be purchased in less exciting "packaging".

But that means the REAL answer might be a lot less pleasant to consider.

If I were in the NRA I'd DEFINITELY push for an "assault weapons ban" if only so it would distract from the larger problem and not really impact the ability of gun loving Americans from getting a good armory set up.   Kind of like how they treat "mental illness".  Talk about it so people won't pay attention to the larger issue.  Only problem with the "mental healthcare gambit" is that it might mean they would have to pay something extra for their guns to support actual mental healthcare improvement.

But you get the point.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Circe said:


> No, blacks, of course. Blacks marching down the road, taking out whomever on their way. Think not? Not many people read about the French and Russian and all the other revolutions as I do: mass killings are the norm. _A la lanternes! _ They hanged them on the street lanterns in Paris, the bakers. The National Convention kept begging the mob not to do that, bad response to the bread shortage, but they kept on and then invaded the National Convention and threatened to kill them all. When we are all disarmed, this will be the norm, I think, just as in Britain now, and leftists and their children will be killed just like rightists.


OK Circe. Have a nice day, my friend.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Briss said:


> It's a rifle with multiple firing settings.


Thank you.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Criminals LOVE black markets, it is known that most guns used in crimes are in fact stolen, and not legally purchased.


I hear that 18 year old Payton Gendron legally purchased his gun. You remember him don't you? The guy who killed the 10 African-Americans in Buffalo, New York a few weeks ago.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Criminals LOVE black markets, it is known that most guns used in crimes are in fact stolen, and not legally purchased.



Where do black market guns come from?  Do they just appear out of thin air?

Or are they stolen from the stashes of good, honest law-abiding gun owners?

This is why I think part of the problem IS the number of guns.  Increasing gun ownership rates means, statistically, that you are increasing the PROBABILITY of those guns winding up in the wrong hands.  Flood the market with more guns than people and you increase the chances of guns being stolen or diverted to "evil purposes".

Life is in no small way a probability game.  We rely on probabilities all over the place.  You currently can't purchase more than a couple boxes of Sudafed because they want to limit the PROBABILITY of Sudafed being diverted to meth production.  

Why can't we use the same logic with guns?  You can have sudafed but only so much and you are regulated.  You can have guns but only so many and you are regulated.

Why is this such a horrible thing to consider?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Google it.


No you brought it up explain to is what it is. As for Goggle there is no set definition.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

Circe said:


> No, blacks, of course. Blacks marching down the road, taking out whomever on their way. Think not? Not many people read about the French and Russian and all the other revolutions as I do: mass killings are the norm. _A la lanternes! _ They hanged them on the street lanterns in Paris, the bakers. The National Convention kept begging the mob not to do that, bad response to the bread shortage, but they kept on and then invaded the National Convention and threatened to kill them all. When we are all disarmed, this will be the norm, I think, just as in Britain now, and leftists and their children will be killed just like rightists.



Wow.  It's like a masterclass in Stormfront posting.  Kudos.  Offensive, ignorant and unhinged.  I think you got the trifecta there!


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you.


If that is your definition then an AR 15 is NOT one as it is semi auto ONLY unless you go through the Government and get a thorough Background check and a special license to own a machine gun. And that is illegal in 17 states.


----------



## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> An AR-15 wouldn't be necessary to protect your home/life.
> A regular shotgun would suffice.


Ha...

Hahahahaha!

That is not for you to define or dictate.


----------



## 2aguy (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



Boy, you are really stupid…..and I mean that in a nice way….

The NRA didn’t shoot anyone, and nothing you dumb shits want would have stopped the attacker…..

But please, for the humor of it, list the gun laws you want…..

The rifle he used was a civilian rifle no different from any other rifle you dimwit

When you actually can engage your brain and apply some thought to your post, please come back and post again…


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> It could have been as something as simple as locking a door. That would have been it.


Don't you think he could've shot the lock off the door with that gun?


----------



## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Don't you think he could've shot the lock off the door with that gun?


Not really. In fact, it could do enough damage to the lock to keep it from opening.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> No you brought it up explain to is what it is. As for Goggle there is no set definition.


The definition has been posted several times in this thread. 
Either accept the definition you see hear. Or Google it.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Boy, you are really stupid…..and I mean that in a nice way….
> 
> The NRA didn’t shoot anyone, and nothing you dumb shits want would have stopped the attacker…..



Can I just say these two sentences together are beautiful.  You call the poster "dumb" but ensure that they know it's in a "nice" way and then you refer to them as a "dumb shit".

I would REALLY hate to see what you say to people you are NOT being nice to!


2aguy said:


> When you actually can engage your brain and apply some thought to your post, please come back and post again…



"...in a nice way".


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Not really. In fact, it could do enough damage to the lock to keep it from opening.



Especially if the schools have enough money to buy hardened locks and doors without windows that are bulletproof.

I wonder if Lakeside Teacher Supply store carries those.  We could make the individual teachers buy their own hardened door so it doesn't increase the cost to the tax payers!!!  

This actually sounds like a GREAT IDEA!

Then when we ARM the teachers we can make them buy their own guns!

This problem will essentially SOLVE ITSELF!!!


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Can I just say these two sentences together are beautiful.  You call the poster "dumb" but ensure that they know it's in a "nice" way and then you refer to them as a "dumb shit".
> 
> I would REALLY hate to see what you say to people you are NOT being nice to!
> 
> ...


He's a winner isn't he? I put him on IGNORE. People who insult or use profanity are not worth my time.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> The definition has been posted several times in this thread.
> Either accept the definition you see hear. Or Google it.


No it hasnt ONE definition was posted and if you use that that is already HEAVILY regulated and an AR15 does not have a fire select lever to allow burst or auto fire.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Ha...
> 
> Hahahahaha!
> 
> That is not for you to define or dictate.



Besides, cappin' some evil-doer's behind with an AR-15 looks more bad-ass than just blowing them away with a 12 gauge.

Brrrraaaaap brrrrrapppp!  Pow!  Pow!  Pow!


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> No it hasnt ONE definition was posted and if you use that that is already HEAVILY regulated and an AR15 does not have a fire select lever to allow burst or auto fire.


See. You already knew the definition of the gun I was referring to. Thank you.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> See. You already knew the definition of the gun I was referring to. Thank you.


And the AR 15 is NOT an assault weapon. By your own definition.


----------



## Confederate Soldier (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I hear that 18 year old Payton Gendron legally purchased his gun. You remember him don't you? The guy who killed the 10 African-Americans in Buffalo, New York a few weeks ago.




Great. HE legally purchased a gun. What about regular every day murder? Guns are usually to blame, and they are as a rule, stolen most of the time. Over $135,000,000 worth of guns were stolen in 2020 alone. You know those were used in crimes. I doubt they'll willingly and legally surrender their weapons if such a ban ever took effect.


----------



## Confederate Soldier (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Where do black market guns come from?  Do they just appear out of thin air?
> 
> Or are they stolen from the stashes of good, honest law-abiding gun owners?
> 
> ...




Because you are putting your trust in the single entity that can abuse that trust.


----------



## Leo123 (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


You need to define 'assault rifle'.......Most gun deaths are by handguns not long rifles.   The NRA is not a huge lobby.


----------



## Leo123 (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?


Your solution will do exactly nothing.   The problem is with the shooter, not the gun.  Relative morality is the real cause.  Failing to properly indict, perps, letting them off with little or no punishment, confusing children as to their born gender, etc.  We also need to repeal the 'gun free schools' act.  If there were armed staff in that school this incident could at least have a chance to have been stopped quickly.  Teach gun safety to children so they know what a gun is and what a gun can do instead of learning about guns through movies and rap music.


----------



## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Especially if the schools have enough money to buy hardened locks and doors without windows that are bulletproof.
> 
> I wonder if Lakeside Teacher Supply store carries those.  We could make the individual teachers buy their own hardened door so it doesn't increase the cost to the tax payers!!!
> 
> ...


Your mockery is disgraceful. Ms. Turquoise's emotional disposition makes me glad she is not a member of congress.


----------



## Leo123 (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Your mockery is disgraceful. Ms. Turquoise's emotional disposition makes me glad she is not a member of congress.


In this incident, the locked door was propped open by a teacher.   No 'hardened' door will work if it is unlocked.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Your mockery is disgraceful.



Is it really worse than 20 kids so mangled by AR-15 rounds that some of the had to be ID'd by DNA because they were so ripped up that they couldn't be identified visually?

My apologies.



TemplarKormac said:


> Ms. Turquoise's emotional disposition makes me glad she is not a member of congress.



Yeah....I hear ya.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

Leo123 said:


> Your solution will do exactly nothing.   The problem is with the shooter, not the gun.



Would you please stop saying that!  It makes it sound like America will work harder on making healthcare (especially mental healthcare) a priority when we won't.

All this pearl clutching about "people" as if America gives a flip about people.  



Leo123 said:


> Relative morality is the real cause.



America is among the leading most religious countries in the Developed world.  What more do we need to do?  



Leo123 said:


> Failing to properly indict, perps, letting them off with little or no punishment,



America has the most prisoners of any country on earth.  How many more do we need to lock up?  Everyone?




Leo123 said:


> We also need to repeal the 'gun free schools' act.



More guns in schools!  Yeah!



Leo123 said:


> If there were armed staff in that school this incident could at least have a chance to have been stopped quickly.



Yeah, that makes sense.  The police who are TRAINED FOR SHOOTING SITUATIONS stayed safe, so I'm sure an armed 3rd grade teacher or a janitor would be MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

Leo123 said:


> You need to define 'assault rifle'.......Most gun deaths are by handguns not long rifles.   The NRA is not a huge lobby.



Don't denigrate them.  They do a pretty good job.  In 2021 they nearly doubled their lobbying money up to $4.9 million.  That's not nothing.

They are doing a GREAT job.  And every time we see a pile of dead kids we KNOW that the NRA will be the FIRST to tell us that this is completely unrelated to guns and if any legislator so much as even THINKS about backing gun legislation they will pull that money from them.

The NRA is doing their job right.  It's just sad that one side-effect is a bunch of dead kids, but hey, if you wanna make an omelet you have to obliterate an egg to the point that it can no longer be visually identified.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

Confederate Soldier said:


> Because you are putting your trust in the single entity that can abuse that trust.



Unlike a trusty gun.  It solves all the problems it sees.  And the beauty of everyone packin' heat is that we know that we will ALL BE SAFER!  Because reasons!


----------



## Leo123 (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Don't denigrate them.  They do a pretty good job.  In 2021 they nearly doubled their lobbying money up to $4.9 million.  That's not nothing.
> 
> They are doing a GREAT job.  And every time we see a pile of dead kids we KNOW that the NRA will be the FIRST to tell us that this is completely unrelated to guns and if any legislator so much as even THINKS about backing gun legislation they will pull that money from them.
> 
> The NRA is doing their job right.  It's just sad that one side-effect is a bunch of dead kids, but hey, if you wanna make an omelet you have to obliterate an egg to the point that it can no longer be visually identified.


The NRA didn’t murder those kids any more than Craftsman murdered anyone with a hammer. 4.9 Million IS nothing when it comes to lobbying.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

Leo123 said:


> The NRA didn’t murder those kids any more than Craftsman murdered anyone with a hammer.



That's ANOTHER thing I hate seeing on the news.  All those mass killings in schools by hammer wielding nutjobs.  I really think we have TOO MANY HAMMERS.  And to think that hammers are made SPECIFICALLY TO HARM OR KILL...it's just irresponsible to sell them in the stores.

But, it's also why there are so few mass hammer killings in other countries.  They have a lot more strictures on hammer purchases.



Leo123 said:


> 4.9 Million IS nothing when it comes to lobbying.



Apparently the congresspeople feel differently.  Otherwise it wouldn't matter what their "gun score" is given by the NRA.


----------



## OhPleaseJustQuit (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I understand that essentially the AR-15 isn't much more than less intimidating looking semi-automatics on the market including some hunting rifles.  It's just tricked out to look more "cool" and "military" but not functionally different.
> 
> As such I kind of see the point that banning "assault rifles" isn't necessarily going to move the needle since similar firepower can be purchased in less exciting "packaging".
> 
> ...


The point is that you, like all other leftists, either can't or won't define a phrase that y'all use pretty frequently, but you still expect folks to believe that you use it authoritatively.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Google it.



I have known the answer for over 20 years, it is clear YOU don't know.


----------



## 2aguy (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Can I just say these two sentences together are beautiful.  You call the poster "dumb" but ensure that they know it's in a "nice" way and then you refer to them as a "dumb shit".
> 
> I would REALLY hate to see what you say to people you are NOT being nice to!
> 
> ...



No...you wouldn't.......


----------



## 2aguy (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Especially if the schools have enough money to buy hardened locks and doors without windows that are bulletproof.
> 
> I wonder if Lakeside Teacher Supply store carries those.  We could make the individual teachers buy their own hardened door so it doesn't increase the cost to the tax payers!!!
> 
> ...




Dipshit......they have billions in unused Covid money that they are using to build Juice Bars and staff those Juice Bars.....they can now use that money for swipe card entries, metal doors, and smash proof windows.......


----------



## Leo123 (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> That's ANOTHER thing I hate seeing on the news.  All those mass killings in schools by hammer wielding nutjobs.  I really think we have TOO MANY HAMMERS.  And to think that hammers are made SPECIFICALLY TO HARM OR KILL...it's just irresponsible to sell them in the stores.
> 
> But, it's also why there are so few mass hammer killings in other countries.  They have a lot more strictures on hammer purchases.
> 
> ...


If you get bashed in the head with a hammer you will die as surely as getting shot.   I ask you again, would you punish the hammer manufacturers, construction lobbies and hammer sellers?  I think we should ban all congresspeople from receiving armed security then let them vote on firearm restrictions.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> And do you think that modern day Norway, UK, Sweden, Japan are all vicious dictator states? They don't have this level of mass shootings so OBVIOUSLY they must be.
> 
> I feel sorry for them not having dead kids all the time to help then understand what TRUE FREEDOM looks like.


We don't trust folks who want us unarmed.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 27, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> We don't trust folks who want us unarmed.



What are gonna do about it?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Leo123 said:


> Your solution will do exactly nothing.   The problem is with the shooter, not the gun.  Relative morality is the real cause.  Failing to properly indict, perps, letting them off with little or no punishment, confusing children as to their born gender, etc.  We also need to repeal the 'gun free schools' act.  If there were armed staff in that school this incident could at least have a chance to have been stopped quickly.  Teach gun safety to children so they know what a gun is and what a gun can do instead of learning about guns through movies and rap music.


There was an armed security guard at that grocery store in Buffalo, New York. He was murdered too.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> What are gonna do about it?


So we're right to distrust you.

Thanks for confirming our suspicion


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Leo123 said:


> The NRA didn’t murder those kids any more than Craftsman murdered anyone with a hammer. 4.9 Million IS nothing when it comes to lobbying.


The NRA likes to see more guns in society. Guess what most people use to kill other people? GUNS. Not hammers.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> The NRA likes to see more guns in society. Guess what most people use to kill other people? GUNS. Not hammers.


Look I know you ignore anything that doesnt support your claims but YOUR definition of an assault weapon does NOT include the AR15.


----------



## Calypso Jones (May 27, 2022)

ms. Turquise said:
			
		

> It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?



 That's just stunning coming from someone who no doubt supports the democrat party who supports and encourages the murder of the unborn.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Look I know you ignore anything that doesnt support your claims but YOUR definition of an assault weapon does NOT include the AR15.


So, what does my definition include?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Calypso Jones said:


> That's just stunning coming from someone who no doubt supports the democrat party who supports and encourages the murder of the unborn.


And what you say is stunning coming from someone who is no doubt a Republican and supports the sale of AR-15s to people who use them to kill young children.


----------



## Rogue AI (May 27, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.


Such a binary choice. You really aught to preach that to your clown crew when it comes to gender. Once again, you prove you are a moron. Bravo!


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> So, what does my definition include?


Machine guns are already heavily regulated and illegal in 17 states. The AR 15 is a semi automatic rifle not a full auto or burst capable rifle, any modification to make it one of those requires a full investigation from the FBI and a proper permit from ATF.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Rogue AI said:


> Such a binary choice. You really aught to preach that to your clown crew when it comes to gender. Once again, you prove you are a moron. Bravo!


Question: What is the difference between a dead little boy and a dead little girl?


----------



## Rogue AI (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question: What is the difference between a dead little boy and a dead little girl?


Ask your baby killer friends that. You folks only care about dead things you can dance upon to push your insidious agenda.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Machine guns are already heavily regulated and illegal in 17 states. The AR 15 is a semi automatic rifle not a full auto or burst capable rifle, any modification to make it one of those requires a full investigation from the FBI and a proper permit from ATF.


Aww---I knew that! 😊


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



This has nothing to do with the NRA and your "common sense" tends to be anything but.  Additionally, you have no clue what an "assault weapon" is.  As I have pointed out in other threads, the issue is the mental health crisis that's been allowed to fester in this country for about a generation or more now.  Until people are willing to admit we have a serious problem with mental health in our culture none of this feel good bullshit you people keep coming up with is going to stop these incidents from happening.  Plenty of other industrialized nations have a fairly high rate of guns per capita and they don't have this problem


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Rogue AI said:


> Ask your baby killer friends that. You folks only care about dead things you can dance upon to push your insidious agenda.


I don't have any friends in the NRA.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> This has nothing to do with the NRA and your "common sense" tends to be anything but.  Additionally, you have no clue what an "assault weapon" is.  As I have pointed out in other threads, the issue is the mental health crisis that's been allowed to fester in this country for about a generation or more now.  Until people are willing to admit we have a serious problem with mental health in our culture none of this feel good bullshit you people keep coming up with is going to stop these incidents from happening.  Plenty of other industrialized nations have a fairly high rate of guns per capita and they don't have this problem


It has a lot to do with the NRA. They buy up our politicians and control their votes. 
No matter how many mentally ill folks we have in society, if they didn't have easy access to guns, they couldn't committ mass shootings.


----------



## Leo123 (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It has a lot to do with the NRA. They buy up our politicians and control their votes.
> No matter how many mentally ill folks we have in society, if they didn't have easy access to guns, they couldn't committ mass shootings.


Total nonsense. ^^^^^


----------



## Rogue AI (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I don't have any friends in the NRA.


Who in the NRA has killed anyone lately? Be specific.

 No doubt your Planned Parenthood friends will gleefully fill you in on recreational baby killing if you ask.


----------



## Calypso Jones (May 27, 2022)

A Culture That Celebrates Murder Can't Understand Mass Shootings
					

It's impossible to look honestly at mass shootings like the one in Texas and ignore the culture of death that prompts them.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## Calypso Jones (May 27, 2022)




----------



## Calypso Jones (May 27, 2022)




----------



## TemplarKormac (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Is it really worse than 20 kids so mangled by AR-15 rounds that some of the had to be ID'd by DNA because they were so ripped up that they couldn't be identified visually?
> 
> My apologies.
> 
> ...


Hah,  if Kavanagh is the best you can do,  then I feel sorry for you. You assholes tried to destroy the man's life with false rape accusations and failed. 

Got any pictures of  Sotomayor for me?


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It has a lot to do with the NRA. They buy up our politicians and control their votes.
> No matter how many mentally ill folks we have in society, if they didn't have easy access to guns, they couldn't committ mass shootings.



It's called the black market.  Furthermore, who says you need a gun for a mass killing?  How many children did Timothy McVeigh kill with a pickup truck of fertilizer?  How about the Kunming train station attack in 2014 that left dozens killed and hundreds injured by a group of men with knives?

Unless we as a society are willing to take a critical look at why these young men are doing this we're simply wasting our time and putting more lives at risk.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Rogue AI said:


> Who in the NRA has killed anyone lately? Be specific.
> 
> No doubt your Planned Parenthood friends will gleefully fill you in on recreational baby killing if you ask.


How is your reading comprehension? I never said the  NRA killed anyone. I said they donate money to our politicians, so that those politicians will vote as they want them to.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 27, 2022)

Calypso Jones said:


> View attachment 650763


Neither would prevent another tragedy if a shooter was intent on killing people. (Children)


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2022)

You claim that the AR15 is an assault weapon by your own definition it is not.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

skews13 said:


> View attachment 650652



If that's funny, then so is the leftist childish belief that mandating and POSTING schools as "gun free zones" (and the land around them)  --  should be funny also.  But it isn't right now. 

MORE guns lately is the rush of LEFTISTS buying them in the wake of the 2020 summer riots and "defund the police" causing crime to soar in places.  Pat yourself on the back.  NRA loves you.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> An AR-15 wouldn't be necessary to protect your home/life.
> A regular shotgun would suffice.



A regular shot-gun?  It's an OK choice for apartments and small spaces.  But if the attacker has a handgun with a magazine, you're gonna maybe lose in a drawn-out encounter. 

And like I told you -- long rifles are also for DETERRENCE of tyranny from govt in all it's forms.  Whether its the DOJ investigating parents who CARE about their school board decisions being called domestic terrorists and having "files opened" on them or an dishonest INSANE administration that tries to install "ministries of truth" to stifle speech or literally EDIT citizens writings on social media.  If you dont know these things are real,  eventually you WILL CARE.  

If my pets are getting attacked by a pack of coyotes -- I NEED a semi-automatic rifle with a magazine. That way i can spare a couple warning shots before I start picking off 2 or 4. 

If 2 or 3 perps have been raiding homes in my area or the shit hits the fan on the economy and it's bedlam -- I want firepower. Because my neighbors and our families want to keep our stuff.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> You claim that the AR15 is an assault weapon by your own definition it is not.



Yup it fires only one bullet per shot thus semi-automatic.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 27, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> True to a greater or lesser point. Society here in America didn't sign up to take care of others. If this kid's family couldn't afford good mental health care for their troubled son then it's THEIR FAULT. They should have made more $$$ to afford healthcare so their son might have had a chance of being stopped.
> 
> But, alas, the family didn't make enough money or they didn't pursue the mental healthcare so maybe we should haul all the surviving members of that family into court and put THEM on trial.



such drama.  You know Obamacare FORCED everyone to have mental health coverage -- RIGHT? You did or didn't know that?  Of course, psych offices now overwhelmed, which is what happens when everything become free or highly subsidized.  


Cardinal Carminative said:


> That's actually not a bad idea. It might then give people pause for having guns in their homes because someone might use it for ill. That's what the studies keep showing.
> 
> But if Americans didn't buy guns crime would sweep the nation and a vicious murdering dictator would come to the fore and enslave us all.



more drama.  WHooopie !!!  Wouldn't give pause to people.  Just lock them up. Like in a 400 lb safe. And keep a pistol in a mini-locker. problem solved. Studies don't include about 600,000 successful "defensive gun uses" at home every year.  But there's that.  600,000 personal injury/property crimes averted is pretty effective compared to the rate "of doing ill"..  And studies are known for tossing in the LEADING cause of death by firearm which is suicide.  And only mental midgets believe that disarming would put a big dent in that "doing ill".


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> There was an armed security guard at that grocery store in Buffalo, New York. He was murdered too.



The shooter knew about him and made plans to kill him first……making the store a gun free zone…it was in his “manifesto.”

He chose that store because it was located in a gun free area……..


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> The NRA likes to see more guns in society. Guess what most people use to kill other people? GUNS. Not hammers.



And guess what tool 1.1 million Americans use to stop rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings, and beatings…..and mass public shootings like the one that was stopped this week in Virginia……

guns

1.1 million times normal people used their guns to help people and save lives…


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question: What is the difference between a dead little boy and a dead little girl?



That’s easy….more of them would be alive today except for the policies of the democrat party……attacking the police and releasing violent gun criminals back into black neighborhoods….

19 kids were killed by the mass shooter……hundreds of black children die each year because the democrat party has handicapped the police and the democrat party keeps releasing violent,dangerous gun criminals back into black neighborhoods…..a lot more kids die every year because of the democrats yet you do nothing about that…


----------



## surada (May 28, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> You wanting it to happen won't make it happen.
> 
> Try proposing something that makes more sense.
> 
> ...



You want teachers to wear body armor???😟


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

surada said:


> You want teachers to wear body armor???😟



If each school has security doors and just some of the teachers, to better, the support staff, are armed…mass public shooters won’t attack……….if they don’t know who is armed or where they are in the building, they will choose another gun free zone over the school


----------



## surada (May 28, 2022)

2aguy said:


> If each school has security doors and just some of the teachers, to better, the support staff, are armed…mass public shooters won’t attack……….if they don’t know who is armed or where they are in the building, they will choose another gun free zone over the school



Guess we'd have to do the same in churches, movie theaters, malls and grocery stores. How many guns do you need? How much ammo?


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

surada said:


> Guess we'd have to do the same in churches, movie theaters, malls and grocery stores. How many guns do you need? How much ammo?



Nope……..you just stop making those public spaces gun free zones…..let normal people carry their own guns……that will keep killers from attacking those places……the Colorado theater shooter picked the one theater in the area that was a gun free zone…other theaters closer to him alllowed concealed carry…


----------



## hjmick (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you.




Nice job with the selective editing, hack... you cut the part that doesn't fit your narrative... There is no reason to take anything you say seriously.

Next time, include the full quote:



Briss said:


> *It's a rifle with multiple firing settings.  As such, the civilian version of the AR-15 is not an assault weapon. Nevertheless, lots of people are easily influenced by appearances.*


----------



## Hellbilly (May 28, 2022)

Rogue AI said:


> Such a binary choice. You really aught to preach that to your clown crew when it comes to gender. Once again, you prove you are a moron. Bravo!


4.


----------



## hjmick (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you.





hjmick said:


> Nice job with the selective editing, hack... you cut the part that doesn't fit your narrative... There is no reason to take anything you say seriously.





Briss said:


> *It's a rifle with multiple firing settings.  As such, the civilian version of the AR-15 is not an assault weapon. Nevertheless, lots of people are easily influenced by appearances.*




I take that back... you didn't cut the part that didn't fit your narrative so much as you cut the part that nullifies half of your OP. You have essentially lost your argument to yourself.


----------



## Blues Man (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


The best way to stop school shootings is to LOCK THE DOORS of the school and control who enters


----------



## Calypso Jones (May 28, 2022)

NRA doesn't  have near the money or the influence that the devils Gates, Soros, Fauci, Klaus, and their globalist, depopulationist, satanist elites have.  This is a battle for the soul of this nation.  They seem to be winning but they're not stronger than God.   Men Scheme, God laughs.


----------



## Calypso Jones (May 28, 2022)

Guns should not be in the hands of the mentally unstable says senile man with nukes. 

Sometimes the Babylon bee just nails it don't they?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 28, 2022)

hjmick Have a nice day.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 28, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The best way to stop school shootings is to LOCK THE DOORS of the school and control who enters


There are certain times of the day when the doors would be unlocked. At the start of classes in the mornings. At lunchtime. At the end of the school day.
The doors cannot ALWAYS be locked.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 28, 2022)

Question for the gun enthusiasts: If that had been one of your children or grandchildren killed at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would you still feel the same way? Would you want to keep the gun laws the same? Would you still want our politicians to be puppets of the NRA?
Be truthful, please.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question for the gun enthusiasts: If that had been one of your children or grandchildren killed at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would you still feel the same way? Would you want to keep the gun laws the same? Would you still want our politicians to be puppets of the NRA?
> Be truthful, please.


No one can answer that question as it did NOT happen to them.


----------



## Blues Man (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> There are certain times of the day when the doors would be unlocked. At the start of classes in the mornings. At lunchtime. At the end of the school day.
> The doors cannot ALWAYS be locked.


And?

That wasn't the case in this last shooting.

And how many school shootings have occurred during the times you mention?

The doors to any school can certainly be locked for 90% of the day


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 28, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> No one can answer that question as it did NOT happen to them.


That's why we must use EMPATHY AND COMPASSION. Act as if it could have been us or one of our family members. Because one of these days it might be.
I know none of those parents expected to lose their children that day. If I had children in public schools I'd be scared right now.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That's why we must use EMPATHY AND COMPASSION. Act as if it could have been us or one of our family members. Because one of these days it might be.
> I'm know none of those parents expected to lose their children that day. If I had children in public schools I'd be scared right now.


Ohh bugger off you lefties and feelings.... we know in the past people have lost loved ones to shootings and did not blame the firearm.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 28, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ohh bugger off you lefties and feelings.... we know in the past people have lost loved ones to shootings and did not blame the firearm.


OK. Have a nice day. Thanks for the conversation.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 28, 2022)

\



flacaltenn said:


> You did or didn't know that?  Of course, psych offices now overwhelmed, which is what happens when everything become free or highly subsidized.



"Psych offices now overwhelmed"?  I hadn't heard that.  Care to back it up with a citation?  Nah, I didn't think so.


----------



## Blues Man (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That's why we must use EMPATHY AND COMPASSION. Act as if it could have been us or one of our family members. Because one of these days it might be.
> I know none of those parents expected to lose their children that day. If I had children in public schools I'd be scared right now.


it is because it could be me or my wife that I want to be able to defend myself and her with the single most effective tool for self defense.  A gun.

All the reactionary gun control fervor and the laws these people want passed will do nothing to stop the next incident.

This guy could have have killed just as many kids with a .22 caliber target pistol as he did with the rifle he used because he was free to just walk in.  He could have used any semiautomatic rifle for that matter.  So all the hand wringing over the evil AR 15 rifle is just stupidity on full display.

What we have the federal and state government outright refusing to enforce the gun laws we have on the books and somehow it all gets blamed on law abiding people who own guns and want to protect that right.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (May 28, 2022)

Politicians should be prevented from accepting donations from car manufactures, and no car should be sold that is capable of going more than 10mph.


Cause..... you know.... racist black dudes.... .parades.......that sort of thing.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Good ideas, but in America (and the UK) politicians need donations to get elected. Good luck finding anyone who will refuse a back hander or two if it gets them power.


----------



## BackAgain (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


🙄

*Rejected*. You don’t have the authority to stop (or even seek to decide who can accept) political contributions from the NRA or from any other lobbying group. If you think for a moment that we could do such a thing, then of course someone will justifiably demand that nobody be allowed to take any money from planned parenthood or any pro-abortion political advocacy group.  

Also, you cannot pass a law against ownership of “assualt” rifles regardless of the fact that the term itself is meaningless. You know. That pesky Constitution Keeps getting in your way. If you want to advocate for the repeal of our 2d Amendment, you’re welcome to try. You will be met with a huge opposition.  But that’s ok. That’s the nature of discussions and debates over any revision to the Constitution. You’re still entitled to give it a try. 

Hell, let’s agree to a convention of the states. We can revisit any part of the Constitution we wish to under such circumstances. But I think it’s fair warning to say: you may not like the outcome. 

Kids have been killed in classrooms. It is a real problem. Don’t trivialize it with one-sided proposals.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 28, 2022)

progressive hunter said:


> what do you mean by assault rifle??
> 
> any rifle is an assault rifle if thats what you use it for,,


Well, I'd say that any rifle that isn't single action or bolt action, qualifies. Why would anyone need a semi-automatic rifle to hunt game? Are American hunters all such bad shots?


----------



## progressive hunter (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, I'd say that any rifle that isn't single action or bolt action, qualifies. Why would anyone need a semi-automatic rifle to hunt game? Are American hunters all such bad shots?


who said anything about hunting game??

the 2nd is for hunting men that would do me my family or my country harm,,

didnt you get the memo??


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 28, 2022)

progressive hunter said:


> the 2nd is for hunting men that would do me my family or my country harm,,


Ah, so you have no faith that your armed forces; Army, National Guard, Navy and Air Force and nuclear weapons are capable of protecting you. If the greatest military force in history can't, what makes you think your assault rifle can?


----------



## progressive hunter (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, so you have no faith that your armed forces; Army, National Guard, Navy and Air Force and nuclear weapons are capable of protecting you. If the greatest military force in history can't, what makes you think your assault rifle can?


its not just my rifle dumbass,,,there are millions of us out there,,

cant help but notice you deflected when proven wrong,, why is that??


----------



## Briss (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, so you have no faith that your armed forces; Army, National Guard, Navy and Air Force and nuclear weapons are capable of protecting you. If the greatest military force in history can't, what makes you think your assault rifle can?


I doubt he has an assault rifle, as those are illegal to own.

If someone invades my home, exactly how are those branches of the military going to protect me?


----------



## Captain Caveman (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Both suggestions are sensible, but do American politicians do sensible?


----------



## Briss (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's what mass shooters usually use to kill people.


Could you cite a source for that bit of information?


----------



## Markle (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Which is the assault weapon?


----------



## Markle (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, I'd say that any rifle that isn't single action or bolt action, qualifies. Why would anyone need a semi-automatic rifle to hunt game? Are American hunters all such bad shots?


All of these weapons are semi-automatic.


----------



## Markle (May 28, 2022)




----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Calypso Jones said:


> NRA doesn't  have near the money or the influence that the devils Gates, Soros, Fauci, Klaus, and their globalist, depopulationist, satanist elites have.  This is a battle for the soul of this nation.  They seem to be winning but they're not stronger than God.   Men Scheme, God laughs.




Did you see the Super Villains at Davos...those left wingers on that stage?

The head of pfizer....actually stated they are developing tracking devices for medicines...so when you swallow them they can track your compliance in taking your meds.....

The other asshole stated they want biometric scanners in all people...so they can track "viruses," and other data.....

The other asshole talked about tracking everything you do, everywhere you go, everything you eat, so that they can track your carbon footprint..

They said this, on stage, with reporters in the room...

These left wingers are vile, and evil...


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Markle said:


>




Actually, leftism/liberalism....is evil...


----------



## Calypso Jones (May 28, 2022)

2aguy        Saw it all.     I sat there wondering....who do these people think they are, sitting there, eating their expensive Japanese steaks making plans to control the rest of us and the world.  WE number more than they do.   There'll come a time when they better bust their asses makin' it to their special secure holes in the ground.  And we'll be waiting for them cause they gotta come out sometime.


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> There are certain times of the day when the doors would be unlocked. At the start of classes in the mornings. At lunchtime. At the end of the school day.
> The doors cannot ALWAYS be locked.




And that is why some staff are armed and why you have a local, on duty police offcer outside.....he doesn't have to be at every school every day, but can randomly go to various schools, making it hard for a would be attacker to know when a school wouldn't have an officer on duty....

Also, you eliminate the gun free status of these schools....if attackers knew that at any point during the day, parents....dropping off lunches, or homework, picking up kids for Dr. appointments.....could be on site at any time.....with their legal guns...it would keep them from targeting these schools....

The parents could call the school before they arrive to let them know they are coming, so the school can be aware of who wants into the building.....

Then, cameras at each entrance, swipe cards and buzzers.......and that would make sure these schools aren't attacked.

Until the next shooter thinks of some new way to attack....


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Calypso Jones said:


> 2aguy        Saw it all.     I sat there wondering....who do these people think they are, sitting there, eating their expensive Japanese steaks making plans to control the rest of us and the world.  WE number more than they do.   There'll come a time when they better bust their asses makin' it to their special secure holes in the ground.  And we'll be waiting for them cause they gotta come out sometime.




Remember, while they eat their 300 dollar Japanese steaks, they want us to transition to eating crickets and other bugs...

The are evil beyond measure.....


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 28, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Both suggestions are sensible, but do American politicians do sensible?


Sadly, only when they are forced to.


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, so you have no faith that your armed forces; Army, National Guard, Navy and Air Force and nuclear weapons are capable of protecting you. If the greatest military force in history can't, what makes you think your assault rifle can?




You guys thought the Maginot Line would save you from the Germans....you guys thought that giving up your guns to your governments would make you safer....

Then the German socialists murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children, and didn't stop until Americans...with their guns, made them stop.......and kept you from having to speak German as your national language, and then later, American guns kept Russia from turning your island into a satellite slave state.....

Our guns are to protect us from criminals....both local and in the government....you guys didn't learn that lesson after 6 years of death camps and mass murder across from your island...

You are the fools.....


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, I'd say that any rifle that isn't single action or bolt action, qualifies. Why would anyone need a semi-automatic rifle to hunt game? Are American hunters all such bad shots?




Yeah.....you get charged by a feral hog, or a violent criminal, and then wonder what you do when your first shot misses...

You are such a doofus.


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Good ideas, but in America (and the UK) politicians need donations to get elected. Good luck finding anyone who will refuse a back hander or two if it gets them power.




Yep.....joe biden has taken money from every foriegn country that would let his drug addicted son set foot on their soil...including Russian and China...


----------



## Concerned American (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA.


All politicians should be banned from accepting donations from Planned Parenthood, the Pharmaceutical industry, ANY partisan PAC, Unions, NAACP, BLM, etc.  There I fixed it for you.


----------



## Concerned American (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> IF all these things had been in place at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would it have saved any of those 19 kids and 2 teachers lives? *NO.*


If that whack job hadn't picked up that inanimate object and used it to take life--that gun would still be sitting by itself at home.  Address the problem.  The problem was the shooter--not the gun.  Would you ban pressure cookers if he used one of those to make a bomb that would have caused the same tragedy?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2022)

Briss said:


> Could you cite a source for that bit of information?


No she cant because it is NOT true, hand guns are used the most


----------



## Concerned American (May 28, 2022)

Briss said:


> I doubt he has an assault rifle, as those are illegal to own.


Wrong.  What is the definition of "assault rifle?"  Despite the best efforts of the fascist democrats, they've never made that pig fly.


----------



## Donald H (May 28, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Wrong.  What is the definition of "assault rifle?"  Despite the best efforts of the fascist democrats, they've never made that pig fly.


The shooters are going for the closest thing they can get their hands on, to a real assault rifle, for obvious reasons.

in *Black! *

What is an assault rifle?
*a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use.*

What is an AR-15?
*a rapid-fire, magazine-fed semi-automatic rifle designed for infantry use.*


----------



## flan327 (May 28, 2022)

EvilCat Breath said:


> The NRA is one of the great American institutions.  I am proud to be a member.


I refuse to own a GUN


----------



## flan327 (May 28, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Wrong.  What is the definition of "assault rifle?"  Despite the best efforts of the fascist democrats, they've never made that pig fly.


Lying troll 😈


----------



## Concerned American (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> What is an AR-15?
> *a rapid-fire, magazine-fed semi-automatic rifle designed for infantry use.*


Wrong again, duck.  Don't you ever get tired of showing your stupidity.  The AR-15 has never been used for infantry.  Rapid fire?  It is no more rapid than pulling the trigger once as it takes a different pull for each round to be fired.  Rifle?  A mac-10, .45 ACP, Ruger 9 mm can fire just as many rounds, just as quickly as an AR-15.  Once again, duck, STFU about US policy--you have no knowledge or standing.  Fix your own fucked up country.


----------



## Concerned American (May 28, 2022)

flan327 said:


> I refuse to own a GUN


Good for you.  That is YOUR choice and your right.  It is my right to choose to own one.


----------



## Concerned American (May 28, 2022)

flan327 said:


> Lying troll 😈


Where is the lie?  Your response shows that you are the classic troll--two irrelevant words with NO substantiation.  Take your leftist ass down the road, moron.


----------



## Circe (May 28, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> If that's funny, then so is the leftist childish belief that mandating and POSTING schools as "gun free zones" (and the land around them)  --  should be funny also.  But it isn't right now.
> 
> MORE guns lately is the rush of LEFTISTS buying them in the wake of the 2020 summer riots and "defund the police" causing crime to soar in places.  Pat yourself on the back.  NRA loves you.


Well, a lot of them aren't stupid. They too have figured out that once the guns are grabbed from decent people, the criminals, with millions of guns still at their disposal and a whole world of manufacturers ready to import them through Mexico just as they do fentanyl ----------- that they'll get shot up and robbed just as much as rightists will as soon as the criminals know they don't have to be afraid of anyone anymore.

That the police can keep order is pretty clearly not what is likely. They can't keep order among the criminals now and a huge crime wave is happening. It's not the decent gun owners doing it, it's the people who have guns who like to do crime. 

The leftists will be killed and raped and robbed just like the rest of us; some of the smarter of them have figured that out.


----------



## Circe (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question for the gun enthusiasts: If that had been one of your children or grandchildren killed at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would you still feel the same way? Would you want to keep the gun laws the same? Would you still want our politicians to be puppets of the NRA?
> Be truthful, please.


Yeah, because it's hopeless. I see that now. This is a crime wave, and presumably a lead-up to a civil war and there is nothing that can be done to stop it now. Well, I can think of several things, but nobody would do any of them, so it's hopeless.


----------



## boedicca (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*




No and No.

Big Pharma and the Teachers Unions provide far more money to politicians (mostly Dems) than does the NRA.  And they do far more harm to kids than does the NRA.  We don't have a gun crisis.  We have a mental health crisis of children and young people who have been damaged by progressive policies, radical indoctrination in schools, behavioral control drugs, social media and neglect.  It's not a coincidence that mentally ill young men are shooting up schools.


----------



## Markle (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The shooters are going for the closest thing they can get their hands on, to a real assault rifle, for obvious reasons.
> 
> in *Black! *
> 
> ...


Your ignorance and desperation are not at all surprising.  Thanks for playing!


----------



## Markle (May 28, 2022)

flan327 said:


> I refuse to own a GUN


Your choice and good for you!

Here's a sign for you to print and put in your front yard.  You know, put you on an equal footing with government schools.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 28, 2022)

Markle said:


> All of these weapons are semi-automatic.



If I were in the NRA and I wanted to make a solid point to ensure that my guns were kept safe I would DEFINITELY want to support something like an "assault weapons ban" since that will effectively keep people from thinking about the fact that so many other guns have a similar capability.

The key is to distract those who aren't familiar with how guns operate by letting them think that all the "tricked out military gew-gaws" on an AR-15 somehow make it more deadly than a semiautomatic rifle or handgun so that people would feel like they actually achieved meaningful change by enacting the assault weapon ban but really just leaving the next mass shooting to a slightly different looking gun.

Otherwise people will start thinking that ALL guns need to be more strongly controlled or, gasp, even banned.

That would be sub-optimal for those who wish to defend the right to own guns without any real oversight.


----------



## ClaireH (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> There are certain times of the day when the doors would be unlocked. At the start of classes in the mornings. At lunchtime. At the end of the school day.
> The doors cannot ALWAYS be locked.


In our local schools we have one entrance that is open for entry and exit. Does it create a long line of students having to exit and enter? Not as much as you think with stagged bussing and car pick up timed separately. Can the students run out freely from 12 various doors at the same time? No. That would not enhance security measures by any means.

Schools have had a choice over the past several decades to either up their game or to claim “no money to implement safety measures” and let it ride and remain stupid. When there is a will there is away, almost always. If schools have multiple doors for easy access, that is due to their own negligence.

While I’m on this tiny soak box I’d like to add parents should not let schools get away with it! Speak up and end up winning the fight in numbers. Get teachers involved who are willing, many are regardless of the administrative position. Be persistent and don’t let the school board tell you “we just don’t have the funds”. If it takes the community coming together and obtaining the funds than that’s what it takes. In those cases, local media should report on the successes of the parents in the community while reporting on the lack of commitment of the school administrators.

Edit- The front entrance is locked with a bell feature/intercom in which the office secretary will or will not let you in through two sets of doors after ID’d. It would be extremely hard for a psychotic shooter to shoot their way in before security would return fire.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


And leftist need prison time for accepting any campaign contributions.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (May 28, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> If I were in the NRA and I wanted to make a solid point to ensure that my guns were kept safe I would DEFINITELY want to support something like an "assault weapons ban" since that will effectively keep people from thinking about the fact that so many other guns have a similar capability.
> 
> The key is to distract those who aren't familiar with how guns operate by letting them think that all the "tricked out military gew-gaws" on an AR-15 somehow make it more deadly than a semiautomatic rifle or handgun so that people would feel like they actually achieved meaningful change by enacting the assault weapon ban but really just leaving the next mass shooting to a slightly different looking gun.
> 
> ...


Fuck you any ban is just the beginning go to hell you fuckers will not stop with just a god damn ban 
Come and taken bitch.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 28, 2022)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Fuck you any ban is just the beginning go to hell you fuckers will not stop with just a god damn ban
> Come and taken bitch.



Wow, you are so amped up you forgot punctuation and spelling.  I'm so sorry.  I didn't mean to "trigger" you so.  (Pun, sorry, couldn't help myself).


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Wow, you are so amped up you forgot punctuation and spelling.  I'm so sorry.  I didn't mean to "trigger" you so.  (Pun, sorry, couldn't help myself).


And his point stands any give by us will result in MORE demands by your side. You never stop trying to ban all firearms.


----------



## EvilCat Breath (May 28, 2022)

flan327 said:


> I refuse to own a GUN


I refused for years.  Flat never will own a gun.

Then I got carjacked.  An 18 year old gang banging illegal put a gun to my head and took my car.  Because he had a gun didn't mean I has to have a gun.  Instead of letting the system turn him loose I fought back.  I hounded him at every court appearance.   Then his lawyer provided dirt bag and co, my home address.  I started getting nightly visits to persuade me to back off.

I got a gun.  Then I got a shotgun.   Then I got two rifles and a dog.  "Come on mother fucker, I will enjoy blowing your head off".  It all stopped.  He ended up with 13 years and I joined the NRA.   

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.  Or not.  It depends.


----------



## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The shooters are going for the closest thing they can get their hands on, to a real assault rifle, for obvious reasons.
> 
> in *Black! *
> 
> ...



No… the AR-15 was a civilian rifle that was then reconfigured for military use….after they changed it from a regular, semi-automatic to a select fire rifle that allowed fully automatic fire…



IThe AR-14 has never been used by the military

You don’t know what you are talking about


----------



## EvilCat Breath (May 28, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> And his point stands any give by us will result in MORE demands by your side. You never stop trying to ban all firearms.


Why?  Because democrats support the worst of the criminals.   There are more law abiding Americans than criminals.  Democrats will permit the murderers to reduce the number of peasants.  Deal with the threat when the bourgeoisie is gone.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> How is your reading comprehension? I never said the  NRA killed anyone. I said they donate money to our politicians, so that those politicians will vote as they want them to.



I ASKED YOU if you realized that the NRA is there to SPEAK for its MILLIONS of members.  Also asked you if you'd prefer they DID NOT LOBBY on behalf of those millions and instead we ALL SHOW UP AND CAMP ARMED ON THE MALL to do the lobbying OURSELVES?    

*Can you state a preference?* Need an answer.. Because you think the NRA is lobbying for it's OWN interests. *They are not. * Sometimes, they are even more apt to cave than most of their members.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The shooters are going for the closest thing they can get their hands on, to a real assault rifle, for obvious reasons.
> 
> in *Black! *
> 
> ...



Bovine scatology.  Let's see how much you THINK you know vs reality.

Las Vegas shooter -- took 6 or MORE AR styles to his suite.  Didn't modify the RIFLES for "rapid fire", bought a gimmick that bumped the stock of the rifle against a trigger finger.  If these are "assault weapons designed for military use -- *WHY DID ONE PERSON NEED SIX OF THEM?  WHY DID HE NEED A GIMMICK ADD-ON to ACHIEVE "rapid fire"?  *

And why when the cavalry arrived did they find 2 or 3 of those rifles with bulging barrels and permanently jammed?

You're hopelessly ill-informed.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (May 28, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Wow, you are so amped up you forgot punctuation and spelling.  I'm so sorry.  I didn't mean to "trigger" you so.  (Pun, sorry, couldn't help myself).


You'll not stop at just a ban. That's just ground that you take and don't have to keep pressing for that then you move on to the next phase. So go fuck yourself I'll keep my rights and you can keep whining gun control gun control gun control for the children fuck off


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The shooters are going for the closest thing they can get their hands on, to a real assault rifle, for obvious reasons.
> 
> in *Black! *
> 
> ...


For fuck sack name the branch of service that uses ar 15s? The police use them but not the military


----------



## Donald H (May 28, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Bovine scatology.  Let's see how much you THINK you know vs reality.
> 
> Las Vegas shooter -- took 6 or MORE AR styles to his suite.  Didn't modify the RIFLES for "rapid fire", bought a gimmick that bumped the stock of the rifle against a trigger finger.


Yes, I believe that's all correct, but I haven't actually spent time studying that shooting. I have no reason to think you wouldn't be telling it like it was.


flacaltenn said:


> If these are "assault weapons designed for military use -- *WHY DID ONE PERSON NEED SIX OF THEM?  WHY DID HE NEED A GIMMICK ADD-ON to ACHIEVE "rapid fire"? *


I didn't say they were assault rifles designed for military. But I would say the assault rifle designed for military use were patterned after them. And of course the shooter didn't modify his weapons to fully automatic.
Actually I wonder why he didn't? Would it not be fairly simple for even an amateur machinist/


flacaltenn said:


> And why when the cavalry arrived did they find 2 or 3 of those rifles with bulging barrels and permanently jammed?


I didn't know that but why would I be interested in finding out?


flacaltenn said:


> You're hopelessly ill-informed.


Actually i'm quite well informed on firearms but my knowledge is somewhat outdated. I became familiar with the FNC1 and FNC2.

Bulged barrels can be caused by several differnt causes but the most likely in this case would be continuous rapid fire IMO.


----------



## Donald H (May 28, 2022)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> For fuck sack name the branch of service that uses ar 15s? The police use them but not the military


I didn't say there was one.

I get the feeling we're not all working together to reach the same end. What the hell are you so miffed about?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I didn't say there was one.
> 
> I get the feeling we're not all working together to reach the same end. What the hell are you so miffed about?


You are correct we aren't working together no fucking way do I want anything you have to offer to be considered.


----------



## Damaged Eagle (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Yes, yes. Let's save the babies while they are in the womb, but once they are in school, let's make it easy for them to be killed.
> Makes perfect sense.








You're the one denying them police protection and other safety precautions that you're more than willing to pay an arm and a leg for to give to politicians and countries that need security that our own borders are not given to the tune of well over forty billion dollars.

*****SMILE*****


----------



## flacaltenn (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I didn't say they were assault rifles designed for military.





Donald H said:


> I didn't know that but why would I be interested in finding out?



You said they were designed for the INFANTRY?  Which is it? 



Donald H said:


> And of course the shooter didn't modify his weapons to fully automatic.
> Actually I wonder why he didn't? Would it not be fairly simple for even an amateur machinist/



*It's not easy and it's FUTILE*.  Because like the Las Vegas shooter -- EVEN with the vicious LOOKING heat sink on the barrel -- you'll jam it or blow up the fucking barrel. The "bump stock that he used is a "hold my beer" gimmick for shooters plincking cans. Serious gun enthusiasts probably wouldn't miss it if it was gone.  But THAT is easy to design and retrofit and is a LIABILITY for use in mass shootings. *You just demonstrated you STILL dont know why the L.V. needed SIX of them.*



Donald H said:


> I didn't know that but why would I be interested in finding out?



Because it would cure your ignorance of calling ANY semi-auto weapon an "assault weapon".  The term itself is MEANINGLESS. I have a sporting clays shotgun that can hold four in the tube and one in the chamber. With the right shell load, I can fire as fast as I pull the trigger. Is that an "assault shotgun"? 



Donald H said:


> Bulged barrels can be caused by several differnt causes but the most likely in this case would be continuous rapid fire IMO.



Here we're talking about barrels liquifying and melting from the heat. The "heat ribbing" is only so effective on a NON-MILITARY grade rifle. THe first thing that melts is the RIFLING that spins the bullets and keeps on the sight line.


----------



## Donald H (May 28, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> You said they were designed for the INFANTRY?  Which is it?


I used a quote that fit both when slightly modified.


flacaltenn said:


> *It's not easy and it's FUTILE*.  Because like the Las Vegas shooter -- EVEN with the vicious LOOKING heat sink on the barrel -- you'll jam it or blow up the fucking barrel. The "bump stock that he used is a "hold my beer" gimmick for shooters plincking cans. Serious gun enthusiasts probably wouldn't miss it if it was gone.  But THAT is easy to design and retrofit and is a LIABILITY for use in mass shootings. *You just demonstrated you STILL dont know why the L.V. needed SIX of them.*


*I have no idea why he needed 6 of them. I've never suggested otherwise.
My best guess would be because he was destroying them with in experiments with rapid fire. The methods he used to accomplish same are pretty well understood I think.*


flacaltenn said:


> Because it would cure your ignorance of calling ANY semi-auto weapon an "assault weapon".  The term itself is MEANINGLESS. I have a sporting clays shotgun that can hold four in the tube and one in the chamber. With the right shell load, I can fire as fast as I pull the trigger. Is that an "assault shotgun"?


Of course it isn't an assault rifle or assault shotgun. But it's a good facsimile of an assault shotgun with maybe a longer barrel. 


flacaltenn said:


> Here we're talking about barrels liquifying and melting from the heat. The "heat ribbing" is only so effective on a NON-MILITARY grade rifle. THe first thing that melts is the RIFLING that spins the bullets and keeps on the sight line.


I understand the purpose of rifling. And I think you're verifying my opinion on why the barrels were bulged. But still, it was only my educated guess on account of what I would suspect he was doing with his firearms.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 28, 2022)

Too many leftist democrats are profoundly ignorant and stubbornly clinging to making the numerous calls for more gun laws and bans despite that we have over 1,000-gun control laws already and often the mass killers passed the background check or just steal the firearms from their own parents or friends a problem that once didn't exist before Marxist propaganda infiltrated the country.

The same leftists Democrats who also resist looking at the DEMOGRAPHICS of the mass killers which indicate to me they are not looking for the solution to the problem but to increase control over the law-abiding people who doesn't abuse their guns it is SOLE reason why they use every tragedy for propaganda purpose to shackle the NRA, Republicans and continue to generate their divisive drive to build their endgame that is for total power over the country the essence of Marxism.

It has now become a patriotic duty of every decent American to resist the developing Marxist tyranny they are building against us *by voting out every leftist, Marxist democrat scum out of office* and *vote in true loving supporters of the American Constitutional Republic!*

Bring back the MODERATE Democrats and Republicans who truly love and support America back into the respective parties where it once again becomes possible to broker compromises and bi-partisan agreements to restore liberty and support justice for all and the end to blatant divisive and criminally Marxist based partisan politics.

Fight for your freedom, Fight for your families and Fight for the Republic!


----------



## ClaireH (May 28, 2022)

EvilCat Breath said:


> I refused for years.  Flat never will own a gun.
> 
> Then I got carjacked.  An 18 year old gang banging illegal put a gun to my head and took my car.  Because he had a gun didn't mean I has to have a gun.  Instead of letting the system turn him loose I fought back.  I hounded him at every court appearance.   Then his lawyer provided dirt bag and co, my home address.  I started getting nightly visits to persuade me to back off.
> 
> ...


Good for you ECB to become proactive after a life-changing ordeal. The fact that the defense attorney of one of the thugs gave out your address? Honestly, I don’t know how I would’ve let that one go. Even 20 years after the fact, I’d be trying to get justice for that unethical action. Wow, not only a survivor of gang violence but upped your self-reliance ten-fold. I’d take my hat off to you if I had one on.


----------



## EvilCat Breath (May 28, 2022)

ClaireH said:


> Good for you ECB to become proactive after a life-changing ordeal. The fact that the defense attorney of one of the thugs gave out your address? Honestly, I don’t know how I would’ve let that one go. Even 20 years after the fact, I’d be trying to get justice for that unethical action. Wow, not only a survivor of gang violence but upped your self-reliance ten-fold. I’d take my hat off to you if I had one on.


It is HIGHLY illegal to release the personal information of a victim or juror.  

That was only the beginning.  I was a practicing attorney myself at the time and the system attacked me and really tried to destroy me.  He was a young, Mexican, illegal trying to make a better life.  I was the racist in his way.  I was supposed to NOT report the carjacking to the police.  I was SUPPOSED to wait 24 hours then fill out a counter report that I could take to the insurance company.  Listen to the bastards yammer about theft, arson and insurance.  That's what the fuckers are talking about. 

After I saw this dirtbag go to prison he started calling me.  I called the warden to revoke his phone privileges.  Nope.  I got laughed at.  Never play games with a pissed off lawyer that considers personal cases a hobby.  I jerked his fat ass into court on a writ of mandamus and forced him to revoke ALL of Danny Dirt bags phone privileges. 

Then I asked a couple of clients on the inside to teach this kid some manners.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question for the gun enthusiasts: If that had been one of your children or grandchildren killed at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would you still feel the same way? Would you want to keep the gun laws the same? Would you still want our politicians to be puppets of the NRA?
> Be truthful, please.



yes to the NRA representing our lobby. (which BTW I've asked you twice nicely about "my alternative" for lobbying Congress and haven't seen your response.) And for the gun laws, check the 3rd paragraph here.

 YES -- because the crime was a PERSON problem and not a gun problem.  Who do I blame if one of my kids gets purposely pushed onto subway tracks?  The TRAIN??? And the "person problem" is NOT just the mentally unstable teen shooter.  There's MANY "person problems" that exacerbated this crime.  Starting with the broken family, the out of touch grandparents over their heads in dealing with this perp,  and the SROfficer NOT on premises, and the TERRIBLE response to rush the room with KIDS STILL ALIVE in there.

THat's why -- Ms Turquoise, I'm now convinced that kids are not maturing quickly enough to be able to purchase a long rifle with a magazine or clip.  I HATE doing that because the fair majority probably are as mature as some 39 somethings. But clearly, the law now is purchases on HANDGUNS are at age 21 and I would like the rifle purchases - except for single shot bolt action -- to also be 21.  IT WILL help in a large percentage of these kid on kid school shootings.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I used a quote that fit both when slightly modified.
> 
> *I have no idea why he needed 6 of them. I've never suggested otherwise.
> My best guess would be because he was destroying them with in experiments with rapid fire. The methods he used to accomplish same are pretty well understood I think.*
> ...



Point is -- the AR is guaranteed to fail under extended "rapid fire". And BATF makes CERTAIN all "AR style" rifles STAY that way.  Go ask them.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 28, 2022)

TIme-out.  Pop quiz.  Is this nasty looking weapon -- an "assault rifle"?? Ms. Turquoise 






*I had an Anschutz as a TEEN (same class, same purpose) without all the optical stuff.*


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 29, 2022)

progressive hunter said:


> cant help but notice you deflected when proven wrong,, why is that??


Where have I "deflected" and where have I been "proven wrong"?


Briss said:


> If someone invades my home, exactly how are those branches of the military going to protect me?


Ah, so you are expecting an invasion and have a locked and loaded assault rifle in every room, easy to get hold of whenever this "invasion" should happen? Hope you get it right when it happens.








						Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot
					

Police say a man fatally shot his 16-year-old daughter in the family’s Ohio home after he mistook her for an intruder




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep.....joe biden has taken money from every foriegn country that would let his drug addicted son set foot on their soil...including Russian and China...


Nah, everyone knows that was Trump.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah.....you get charged by a feral hog, or a violent criminal, and then wonder what you do when your first shot misses...


So you agree that you are all bad shots then?  Fun fact regarding bolt action rifles: In 1914 the British army were armed with the Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle. When the Germans first encountered British Infantry, they thought they were all armed with machine guns due to how rapidly they fired their bolt action rifles.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You guys thought the Maginot Line would save you from the Germans....


No, the French did, after the slaughter of WW1, they had no stomach for a repeat. The Maginot line could have worked but for the political issues surrounding building it along the borders of allied/friendly countries, which the Germans invaded to get around it.


2aguy said:


> you guys thought that giving up your guns to your governments would make you safer....


Who gave up their guns in Europe? Gun laws were quite lax in Europe, the French, for example even had their own "2nd ammendment"  Article 42 of the Penal Code of 1810. Restrictions were put in place in 1939 because of fears about a Communist uprising at the time


2aguy said:


> Then the German socialists murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children, and didn't stop until Americans...with their guns, made them stop....


Actually, the Soviet Union made the greatest contribution to stopping Hitler and the Nazis, who were never "socialists" as you keep declaring. If anything the Nazis were what your current Republican Party and our Conservative Party are becoming.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 29, 2022)

Markle said:


> All of these weapons are semi-automatic.


Erm, the bottom two are handguns, not rifles, do pay attention.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 29, 2022)

In the 1960s Ronald Reagan was Governor of California. The Black Panthars in Oakland, CA were becoming active and wanted to protect their neighborhoods from police brutality against African-Americans.
They started openly carrying guns. Once they even visited the California state Capitol building carrying guns. (I know Reagan didn't like that).
So---Gov Reagan made a new law stating it was illegal to openly carry guns in public. No such law had existed in California before that.
Just an example of what politicians can do when and if they want to.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 29, 2022)

flacaltenn
No. That looks like a toy gun to me.


----------



## OnePercenter (May 29, 2022)

Use a gun in the commission of any crime: Federal, life without parole.
Use a gun in the commission of any crime that causes injury or death of another person: Federal death penalty.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Where have I "deflected" and where have I been "proven wrong"?
> 
> Ah, so you are expecting an invasion and have a locked and loaded assault rifle in every room, easy to get hold of whenever this "invasion" should happen? Hope you get it right when it happens.
> 
> ...


I guess this is your way of saying you don't give a damn about the victims of home invasion.  Why would you want victims of home invasion to not be able to stop the intruder?


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Wrong.  What is the definition of "assault rifle?"  Despite the best efforts of the fascist democrats, they've never made that pig fly.


An assault rifle has multiple firing settings.  When did someone last use one of those in a shooting?


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> What is an assault rifle?
> *a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use.*


You forgot to mention the multi firing settings.


----------



## Markle (May 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Erm, the bottom two are handguns, not rifles, do pay attention.


Your point being?

I said they were semi-automatic weapons.  Do pay attention.


----------



## ClaireH (May 29, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> yes to the NRA representing our lobby. (which BTW I've asked you twice nicely about "my alternative" for lobbying Congress and haven't seen your response.) And for the gun laws, check the 3rd paragraph here.
> 
> YES -- because the crime was a PERSON problem and not a gun problem.  Who do I blame if one of my kids gets purposely pushed onto subway tracks?  The TRAIN??? And the "person problem" is NOT just the mentally unstable teen shooter.  There's MANY "person problems" that exacerbated this crime.  Starting with the broken family, the out of touch grandparents over their heads in dealing with this perp,  and the SROfficer NOT on premises, and the TERRIBLE response to rush the room with KIDS STILL ALIVE in there.
> 
> THat's why -- Ms Turquoise, I'm now convinced that kids are not maturing quickly enough to be able to purchase a long rifle with a magazine or clip.  I HATE doing that because the fair majority probably are as mature as some 39 somethings. But clearly, the law now is purchases on HANDGUNS are at age 21 and I would like the rifle purchases - except for single shot bolt action -- to also be 21.  IT WILL help in a large percentage of these kid on kid school shootings.


Relevant tidbit fully supporting your post: the human brain is not fully developed at 18 for rational thought. On average, it’s not until around 23 (for many a couple of years later) that our brain stem fully connects to the frontal lobe (house of logic). This info wasn’t available during the time alcohol, service mandates, and gun laws were determined. Not sure had they known the ages would have been raised, but they should have been. 

I do agree with you that there are some 18 year olds who are “fully adults” emotionally and rationally, but they are not the norm. I’d be interested to know what their brains look like at 18 to help explain these biological differences. I’m never one to blame the group for the acts of individuals, but when specific legal measures prove to save innocent lives I can’t argue against it. 

Good analogy about the train being blamed, it’s as you stated a person(s) problem.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> If I were in the NRA and I wanted to make a solid point to ensure that my guns were kept safe I would DEFINITELY want to support something like an "assault weapons ban" since that will effectively keep people from thinking about the fact that so many other guns have a similar capability.
> 
> The key is to distract those who aren't familiar with how guns operate by letting them think that all the "tricked out military gew-gaws" on an AR-15 somehow make it more deadly than a semiautomatic rifle or handgun so that people would feel like they actually achieved meaningful change by enacting the assault weapon ban but really just leaving the next mass shooting to a slightly different looking gun.
> 
> ...


I've actually had posters on other debate sites screaming about the pistol grip making a rifle more deadly by virtue of it being more ergonomically correct.  It's all they had, and they held on to it to the bitter end.


----------



## progressive hunter (May 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Where have I "deflected" and where have I been "proven wrong"?
> 
> Ah, so you are expecting an invasion and have a locked and loaded assault rifle in every room, easy to get hold of whenever this "invasion" should happen? Hope you get it right when it happens.
> 
> ...


gets worse with every post you make


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Nah, everyone knows that was Trump.




No....we know it was biden because it was on his laptop....10% of all the foreign money went to joe biden...


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> yes to the NRA representing our lobby. (which BTW I've asked you twice nicely about "my alternative" for lobbying Congress and haven't seen your response.) And for the gun laws, check the 3rd paragraph here.
> 
> YES -- because the crime was a PERSON problem and not a gun problem.  Who do I blame if one of my kids gets purposely pushed onto subway tracks?  The TRAIN??? And the "person problem" is NOT just the mentally unstable teen shooter.  There's MANY "person problems" that exacerbated this crime.  Starting with the broken family, the out of touch grandparents over their heads in dealing with this perp,  and the SROfficer NOT on premises, and the TERRIBLE response to rush the room with KIDS STILL ALIVE in there.
> 
> THat's why -- Ms Turquoise, I'm now convinced that kids are not maturing quickly enough to be able to purchase a long rifle with a magazine or clip.  I HATE doing that because the fair majority probably are as mature as some 39 somethings. But clearly, the law now is purchases on HANDGUNS are at age 21 and I would like the rifle purchases - except for single shot bolt action -- to also be 21.  IT WILL help in a large percentage of these kid on kid school shootings.




We have 330 million people....two, 18 year olds out of 330 million....likely the 2nd was inspired by the coverage the democrat media gave the Buffalo shooter......

That number is not the rational number for banning rifles for normal teens in normal families...both of these killers were well known to the police....and their schools.....and their families....that is what we need to concentrate on...

If you let the anti-gun fanatics bum rush you into banning these rifles, you will have no rational defense when the come for hand guns, since hand guns are the most commonly used murder weapons by teenagers in gangs.....

Don't fall for their false claims of wanting to stop these shootings.......this shooting was Christmas day for anti-gun fanatics...they wait for the rare school shootings like kids waiting for Santa Klaus....


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So you agree that you are all bad shots then?  Fun fact regarding bolt action rifles: In 1914 the British army were armed with the Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle. When the Germans first encountered British Infantry, they thought they were all armed with machine guns due to how rapidly they fired their bolt action rifles.




Moron.....you try hitting a moving target full of teeth and aggression.....you idiot...


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Erm, the bottom two are handguns, not rifles, do pay attention.




Are you this stupid or just lying....

Semi-automatic is a rate of fire, all of them fire one bullet per pull of the trigger, they are the exact same weapon.......

this is why anti-gun fanatics here in the U.S. want to ban the AR-15 rifle, even though knives, clubs and bare hands kill more people each year.......

They know if they can ban this rifle by stampeding uninformed Americans, when they come back to call for the banning of shotguns and handguns, they can claim that all semi-automatic weapons are the same, and that banning the AR-15 allows them to ban all other semi-automatic weapons....


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> In the 1960s Ronald Reagan was Governor of California. The Black Panthars in Oakland, CA were becoming active and wanted to protect their neighborhoods from police brutality against African-Americans.
> They started openly carrying guns. Once they even visited the California state Capitol building carrying guns. (I know Reagan didn't like that).
> So---Gov Reagan made a new law stating it was illegal to openly carry guns in public. No such law had existed in California before that.
> Just an example of what politicians can do when and if they want to.




Yep...they violated Rights....the nazis knew they could violate Rights too, then went on to murder 15 million innocent men, women and children across the continent of Europe..........just another example of what socialist politicians can do when and if they want to..


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> I guess this is your way of saying you don't give a damn about the victims of home invasion.  Why would you want victims of home invasion to not be able to stop the intruder?




because as a leftist, he believes the world is over populated...so a dead human works for them..


----------



## Flash (May 29, 2022)

Here is a recent case where a woman took responsibility and stopped a potential mass shooting.  She was braver than any of the police in Texas.









						Armed woman stops WV mass shooting, police say
					

Charleston police said that a woman's actions may have prevented a mass casualty event following an altercation about speeding through a neighborhood.




					www.wral.com
				




​Armed woman stops WV mass shooting, police say ​


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> I've actually had posters on other debate sites screaming about the pistol grip making a rifle more deadly by virtue of it being more ergonomically correct.  It's all they had, and they held on to it to the bitter end.



I'm sure there must be some small advantage to things like that.  But I think the NRA and 2A advocates should make sure that they keep secret the fact that there are a LOT of options for mass shooters that will be just about as effective not equally effective.

That way the Lefties will vote for the little fixes and feel like something meaningful has happened but the shootings can continue unabated.  It's kind of win-win for America.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Flash said:


> Here is a recent case where a woman took responsibility and stopped a potential mass shooting.  She was braver than any of the police in Texas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the second time someone's posted that particular story.  It's great.  I hope you guys get a LOT of mileage from that incident.  Only a couple hundred more people willing to be that brave and we might put a dent in the number of mass shootings each year!


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Point is -- the AR is guaranteed to fail under extended "rapid fire". And BATF makes CERTAIN all "AR style" rifles STAY that way.  Go ask them.


I haven't pursued any technical questions  on the AR's, but  I would think the barrel could possibly be sacrificed to get the shooter's job accomplished. The shootings with the largest kills of over 50 would indicate that.

I'm still not interested in the technical questions nearly as much as I'm interested in the details on the shooters and the reasons why the shootings are becoming move frequent. 
But thanks for your information on the barrels.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I haven't pursued any technical questions  on the AR's, but  I would think the barrel could possibly be sacrificed to get the shooter's job accomplished. The shootings with the largest kills of over 50 would indicate that.



I think the greatest thing about being an American is being able to hear people talk about the "kills" specs of a gun in glowing terms in the middle of a thread about the mass slaughter of innocent children.

It's inspiring.  I feel safer just being and American now.



Donald H said:


> I'm still not interested in the technical questions nearly as much as I'm interested in the details on the shooters and the reasons why the shootings are becoming move frequent.



...and more importantly *why it's only a significant problem in America*.  In other countries with the same or similar socioeconomic factors as us they simply don't have these things happen like they do here.  Sure they have crime and they have mass killings, but it's not off-the-charts like we have in America.


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I think the greatest thing about being an American is being able to hear people talk about the "kills" specs of a gun in glowing terms in the middle of a thread about the mass slaughter of innocent children.


Has somebody actually done that? I wouldn't make that accusation lightly.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> It's inspiring.  I feel safer just being and American now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...and more importantly *why it's only a significant problem in America*.  In other countries with the same or similar socioeconomic factors as us they simply don't have these things happen like they do here.  Sure they have crime and they have mass killings, but it's not off-the-charts like we have in America.


*The same socioeconomic factors* shouldn't be carelessly assumed, especially when the discussion is on guns and shooters.

Those are the points that I keep alluding to as the possible causes of the problem.

Fwiw, Japan has done studies on the cause of many suicides being related to unsatisfactory living standards. That could be another way of addressing the socioeconomic issues.

For now, I'm not finished with the 'culture' of wars, death, and killing.

I hesitate to bring the abortion issue into this conversation, but I think it could be a factor, as it's described by Politicalchic.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Has somebody actually done that? I wouldn't make that accusation lightly.



This:


Donald H said:


> I haven't pursued any technical questions  on the AR's, but  I would think the barrel could possibly be sacrificed to get the shooter's job accomplished. The shootings with the largest kills of over 50 would indicate that.



Now, before you go thinking I was saying YOU liked watching little kids get slaughtered, let me clarify that I was NOT saying that.  I was just noting how easily gun enthusiasts drift over into their HOBBY even when the topic is related to the slaughter of little kids.

I understand it's a means of psychologically dissociating oneself from the horrors that are connected to the object of their affection (guns, in this case).  It gives one a sense of "control" by being able to dispassionately discuss gun specs and not have to think about little kids whose heads are so mangled by a bullet that their parents have to give DNA samples to identify them.

I know you are as disgusted by this horror as I am.  So I understand the temptation to want to get away from it as soon as possible.  Think about things that make one comfortable.  Talk about "gun specs" and not blood.




Donald H said:


> *The same socioeconomic factors* shouldn't be carelessly assumed, especially when the discussion is on guns and shooters.



Unless you don't have a passport I will suggest you tell me the fundamental differences between us and the Finns, the Brits, the Belgians, the Dutch, the German, the French, the Spanish, the Swedes...  

In fact countries with our standard of living and our general "values" don't have the problem WE have.  The difference isn't some socioeconomic thing.  But I'll leave you to figure out what the difference is.



Donald H said:


> I hesitate to bring the abortion issue into this conversation, but I think it could be a factor, as it's described by Politicalchic.



The abortion debate is a cannard.  The folks who are often the most pro-life are often also PRO-GUN.  That's a sickness.  It belies the fact that it really isn't a "religious" conviction for them.  They deny their Savior's exhortation to NOT live by the sword while they claim they are acting in accordance with God's will by defending the pre-born.

But once born those kids are on their own because the pro-life crowd isn't going to vote for more welfare!  

Pro Life is a joke.  They don't care about the living.  They care about control.  Controlling women's bodies is one more lever of control.  Their own faith is a joke, even to them.


----------



## surada (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope……..you just stop making those public spaces gun free zones…..let normal people carry their own guns……that will keep killers from attacking those places……the Colorado theater shooter picked the one theater in the area that was a gun free zone…other theaters closer to him alllowed concealed carry…











						Other Countries Had Mass Shootings. Then They Changed Their Gun Laws.
					

Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway: All had a culture of gun ownership, and all tightened restrictions anyway. Their violence statistics now diverge sharply from those of the U.S.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## surada (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Has somebody actually done that? I wouldn't make that accusation lightly.
> 
> *The same socioeconomic factors* shouldn't be carelessly assumed, especially when the discussion is on guns and shooters.
> 
> ...


Other countries permit abortions, stopped mass shootings and they also have universal healthcare and control their borders and illegals.









						Other Countries Had Mass Shootings. Then They Changed Their Gun Laws.
					

Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway: All had a culture of gun ownership, and all tightened restrictions anyway. Their violence statistics now diverge sharply from those of the U.S.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

surada said:


> Other Countries Had Mass Shootings. Then They Changed Their Gun Laws.
> 
> 
> Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway: All had a culture of gun ownership, and all tightened restrictions anyway. Their violence statistics now diverge sharply from those of the U.S.
> ...




And as 538 pointed out, they had mass shootings before they banned guns, and the same number after.....

Then you would have to explain these shootings in Australia, post ban and confiscation...

Man shot near children’s tutoring centre

A man has been taken to hospital following a shooting in Melbourne’s north-west.

The man, aged in his 30s, was found with gun shot wounds to his upper body in Stention Road, Kealba around 3.15pm.

Police discovered the seriously injured man outside a tutoring centre, where dozens of children were attending weekend classes.
==========
6/5/17


‘Terror’ gunman was on parole

POLICE are investigating possible terror links to a siege in which officers gunned down one man and found another dead in Melbourne’s southeast.

A *senior law enforcement figure said the gunman was on parole for a criminal offence and rated as a low-risk figure of interest to counter-terror authorities.

The Herald Sun has revealed the gunman was Yacqub Khayre, a Somali refugee who was known to counter-terrorism police.*

Police shot and killed Khayre, a second man was found dead in the foyer of an apartment building in Brighton *and three cops sustained gunshot wounds in the bloody hostage drama.*

A male caller to the Channel 7 newsroom in Melbourne said: “This is for IS” and “this is for Al-Qaeda.” The station said a woman could be heard screaming in the background.

A Victoria Police statement confirmed police are investigating whether the incident is terrorism related.

===========

March 2016....


Number of shootings in Melbourne area continues to rise

*Three people will appear in court in Geelong after shots were fired between two moving cars on Thursday night, as the problem with gun-related violence in the Melbourne area continues to escalate.*

The shooting at Geelong and another separate incident at Frankston brings to 10 the number of shootings in the Melbourne and Geelong areas since February 2.

Three people were arrested after shots were fired between two moving cars just before 6:30pm at Norlane.
--------

4/28/16  gang shooting in Perth


No Cookies | Perth Now

tensions had since risen between the Rebels and the Coffin Cheaters, he said.


“That’s something that I cannot elaborate on further at this time,” Det Insp Fyfe said.

“We know both gangs were there.

“The offender or offenders, I do not believe they are a threat to the community in general.”

He said police were yet to identify a suspect, but were speaking with the two surviving victims.

*Det Insp Fyfe said at least eight shots were fired from two different types of guns, one of which was a semi-automatic, and one bullet went through a car in the street, so it was fortunate no innocent bystanders were hurt.
*
4/28/16 port arthur shooting with assault rifle..

Man found shot in Port Arthur

Port Arthur Police are investigating a shooting at Dewalt and W. 14th Street.  Police got the call at about 10:45 p.m. Thursday.  When they arrived on the scene they found a 29-year-old man laying outside a car that was riddled with bullets.  The man had a gunshot wound to the leg and was taken to Christus Southeast Texas St. Elizabeth in Beaumont. His injuries are not life-threatening. 

*Police say they believe the gun used was some sort of an assault rifle. There is no word on any suspects at this time. 

----------------------*
4/29/16....

'This isn't a random shooting': Man targeted in Sydney killing

A gunman is at large after a "targeted" shooting in Sydney's south-west that has left one man dead and two other people injured.

---------------------
Timeline of major crimes in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

25 January 1996 – Hillcrest murders – Peter May shot and killed his three children, his estranged wife and her parents in the Brisbane suburb of Hillcrest before killing himself.[54]

16 August 1998 – Victorian police officers Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were shot dead in an ambush by Bendali Debs and Jason Joseph Roberts in the Moorabbin Police murders.
3 August 1999 – La Trobe University shooting – Jonathan Brett Horrocks walked into the cafeteria in La Trobe university in Melbourne Victoria armed with a 38 caliber revolver handgun and opened fire killing Leon Capraro the boss and manager off the cafeteria and wounding a woman who was a student at the university.


21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.

26 May 2002 – A Vietnamese man walked into a Vietnamese wedding reception in Cabramatta Sydney, New South Wales armed with a handgun and opened fire wounding seven people.


*21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.*


*18 June 2007 – Melbourne CBD shooting – Christopher Wayne Hudson opened fire on three people, killing one and seriously wounding two others who intervened when Hudson was assaulting his girlfriend at a busy Melbourne intersection during the morning peak. He gave himself up to police in Wallan, Victoria on 20 June.[71]*
28 April 2011 – 2011 Hectorville siege – Donato Anthony Corbo shot dead Kobus and Annetjie Snyman and their son-in-law Luc Mombers and seriously wounded Mr Mombers' 14-year-old son Marcel and a police officer at Hectorville, South Australia before being arrested after an eight-hour stand off.
28 April 2012 – A man opened fire in a busy shopping mall in Robina on the Gold Coast shooting Bandidos bikie Jacques Teamo. A woman who was an innocent bystander was also injured from a shotgun blast to the leg. Neither of the victims died, but the incident highlighted the recent increase in gun crime across major Australian cities including Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.[_citation needed_]
23 May 2012 – Christopher 'Badness' Binse, a career criminal well known to police, was arrested after a 44-hour siege at an East Keilor home in Melbourne's north west. During the siege, Binse fired several shots at police and refused to co-operate with negotiators; eventually tear gas had to be used to force him out of the house, at which point he refused to put down his weapon and was then sprayed with a volley of non-lethal bullets.[_citation needed_]
8 March 2013 – Queen Street mall siege – Lee Matthew Hiller entered the shopping mall on Queen Street Brisbane Queensland armed with a revolver and threatened shoppers and staff with the revolver, causing a 90-minute siege which ended when Hiller was shot and wounded in the arm by a police officer from the elite Specialist Emergency Response Team. Hiller was then later taken to hospital and was treated for his injury; he pleaded gulity to 20 charges and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years in jail with a non-parole period of two years and three months.[_citation needed_]


15 December 2014 – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis – Seventeen people were taken hostage in a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney by Man Haron Monis. The hostage crisis was resolved in the early hours of 16 December, sixteen hours after it commenced, when armed police stormed the premises. Monis and two hostages were killed in the course of the crisis.[131]



10 September 2015 – Karin Lock was shot dead in a McDonald's restaurant in the Gold Coast by her ex-husband Stephen Lock, who then turned the gun on himself and shot himself dead.[140][141][142]



7 March 2016 - Finks bikie gang member Wayne Williams armed himself with an AK 47 rifle and shot and killed Michael Bassal and shot and wounded his brothers Terry Bassal and Mark Bassal outside an industrial building in the suburb of Ingleburn Sydney. Williams then barricaded himself inside the building and took three hostages, resulting in a siege and stand off with police. He later released the three hostages and shot himself dead. The shootings were committed as a result of a business deal gone wrong.[_citation needed_]


29 April 2016 - A gunman opened fire inside the Centro shopping centre in Bankstown, Sydney. He shot and killed convicted criminal Walid Ahmad, shot and wounded a man who was with Ahmad, and also wounded a woman who was an innocent bystander. The shooting was targeted and was committed as a result of an ongoing feud between two rival Middle Eastern organised crime gangs.[144]


7 June 2017 - 2017 Brighton siege. Somali immigrant Yacqub Khayre took a female prostitute hostage in a serviced apartment complex in the suburb of Brighton in Melbourne and then shot dead the complex clerk Nick Hao. He enticed police to the complex and made references to Islamic terrorist groups before dying in a shoot-out with police with three police officers wounded.[153]


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

surada said:


> Other countries permit abortions, stopped mass shootings and they also have universal healthcare and control their borders and illegals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Britain...had a mass public shooting once every 10 years before they banned guns...after they banned guns.....they have had one mass public shooting about 1 every 10 years....

Cumbria shooting..... 13 killed

Plymouth shooting, 6 killed

The only reason they have universal healthcare......they use Americans with guns to keep them safe from other European Countries and Russians....they use American businesses to create new technologies, and they use American medical and pharmacuetical companies for their medical and drug advances...which they then extort from American businesses

Before you use places like Britain and Australia, you should tell them to stop hiding behind Americans with guns....

Also, their healthcare systems are really, really bad, running out of money and they can't keep doctors and nurses who don't want to go to school for years and years to get paid like Civil Servants...


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

surada said:


> Other countries permit abortions, stopped mass shootings and they also have universal healthcare and control their borders and illegals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Canada?

They have 38 million people and about 1 mass public shooting every few years...

We have over 330 million people....

We had 6 in 2021

2 in 2020

10 in 2019......

Canada?

Mass public shooting 2014...9 killed

Mass public shooting 2017....6 killed

Mass public shooting in 2018..... 3 killed

Mass public shooting in 2020....23 killed, more than in the Texas school shooting....

Dittos....they had mass shootings before and they still have them...in fact, criminals in Canada are gunning up to protect their drug trade...

Firearms too easy to get​Marc Alain, a professor at the Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières and a researcher with the Centre of International Comparative Criminology, says one of the biggest drivers of gun violence is how readily available handguns have become in Quebec and throughout Canada.

------

Maria Mourani, a criminologist who has studied Montreal street gangs and written about organized crime in Quebec and around the world, says she's not surprised by the recent rise in gun violence.

Mourani says she started to notice an uptick in shootings last fall, but things have escalated in the last couple months.

"When we have shootings it means there are conflicts between different criminal groups," she said. "Fights over territory, over drugs, unpaid debts…sometimes it's just two people who disagree."

She says an ongoing war between rival gangs, the Profit Boys in Rivière-des-Prairies and Zone 43 from Montréal-Nord, is causing a lot of the bloodshed.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/gun-violence-explained-by-criminologists-1.6132114





CityNews



Part of the problem is the proliferation of guns. Although Canada has some of the strictest gun laws in the Western world, with Bill C-21 poised to make them even stricter, getting a gun has never been easier for some segments of the population, namely criminals.

“It’s not hard. They’re everywhere,” says Dwayne Beckford from behind a glass partition.

Beckford is currently remanded on gun charges at Toronto East Detention Centre. In his late 30s, he has spent most of his adult life behind bars
-------
“Everybody has them, like I said. It is scary how much there are, how easily accessible they are. Kids have them.”

Convicted of gun-related charges in the past, he recalls getting a gun was as easy as walking a dog. “They’d be cheaply bought, or just handed to you by guys in the neighbourhood.”

“Everybody has a gun these days. You talk to some guys that can easily give you what you want – to borrow, or hold, or buy.”
-----
“It’s like, ‘Yeah, here’s $80. You go do what you’ve got to do with it and come back.’ So they’re not even worried about getting caught with the weapon with X amount of bodies on it. That doesn’t even matter anymore,” he explains.

“I could find a gun in a couple of hours,” Wilson says, despite years outside of the game.

“We are seeing more firearms in the street, deadlier than we have seen before,” says Inspector Joe Matthews, the head of Toronto Police’s Guns and Gangs Unit.

In 2009, there were 259 shootings in Toronto resulting in 70 injuries and deaths. Last year, that number jumped to 462 shootings and 217 injuries and deaths. For the past five years, Toronto has witnessed more than 400 shootings a year.
--------
“The fact that innocent people are getting hit, children are getting hit. These are things we used to care about. There was a moral compass, even though we were extremely violent. There was a method to the madness. I can’t wrap my head around why they would allow it to get to the way that it’s getting, where now, the violence can spill over into their safe communities and zones.”

The end result is broken communities, broken families and lives lived in fear.

“You have people who have been terrified by people in their community, terrorized by people. So they’re afraid,” explains Fox outside the bar where her son was killed. “They’re afraid to say anything … But I mean, it has to stop somewhere. Right?”

==============



Growing gun violence in Toronot..



By the end of 2019, more than 760 people had been shot in the city, 44 of whom were killed, according to Toronto Police. That's triple the number of shooting victims in the city in 2014.

Canada has tighter gun laws than in the U.S. and suffers much less gun crime, so for many citizens, the sharp rise in gun violence in Toronto is shocking. City officials and gun control advocates are trying to figure out why the surge is happening — and what they can do to stop it.




Toronto...

EDITORIAL: Politicians silent on street check ban increasing gun crime

The fact gang and gun violence in Toronto has skyrocketed since police were banned from doing street cheeks makes them uncomfortable, lest they be accused of racism by anti-police activists if they acknowledge it.

And so at City Hall and Queen’s Park they ignore reality, saying they’re hiring more police officers, implementing new shift schedules to more effectively deploy the force and investing more money in policing and programs to address the root causes of violence.

Despite that, since street checks were banned in 2014, the number of shootings compared to 2019 is up by 178%, victims by 218% and shooting homicides by 63%.

------

Last week, recently retired police officer Sue Fisher, on the force for almost 32 years, told the Sun’s Sue-Ann Levy that the end of street checks allowed the “bad guys to take over … there’s no longer that fear (among the criminal element.)”

Today, Fisher said, officers are often running from shooting to shooting after the fact, as opposed to doing proactive policing, like street checks, to gather intelligence to prevent shootings before they occur.




According to Canada's government statistics agency, gun violence overall rose by more than 40% in Canada between 2013 and 2017, with much of that increase driven by incidents in Toronto.

Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders says that the city's recent gun violence has been connected to gang activity.

In a press conference in August, he said the Raptors incident and the August shootings "by and large have street gang connotations to them," pointing to the gang membership of the victims and those arrested. There is a thriving gang culture in Toronto centered on the illegal drug trade, largely in the city's poorer outer suburbs.


LILLEY: Gun in cop cruiser shows why bans don’t work with criminals

Ali Showbeg is now the poster child for why Justin Trudeau’s proposed gun bans simply won’t work.

If you haven’t heard of Showbeg, maybe you’ve heard of what he did. After being arrested for impaired driving on Oct. 27 in Toronto, Showbeg was caught on camera maneuvering himself to the point where he popped a handgun out of his clothing and dropped it right in his crotch.

Thank goodness the man was clearly intoxicated and not in a mood for fighting or things could have been much worse for the officers transporting him. As in, they could have been dead.
-----
As Joe Warmington reported when the event became public, Showbeg was not exactly a stranger to police. He was arrested and charged with attempted murder in 2005 for an incident that saw a car shot up in Toronto’s north end.

In 2006, he faced firearms charges that resulted in a lifetime gun ban.

So how, given that he is subject to a lifetime gun ban, did Ali Showbeg get a gun and then get that gun into the back of a squad car?

I mean, surely he would have known he was banned from owning a gun. Surely he would have known he has never taken the required safety course and passed the test to get a gun licence. So how could he have gotten a gun?

The same way the 38 year-old did when he was a much younger 23 year-old. He bought it illegally.

*Toronto left reeling after long weekend gun violence*



Officials in Toronto say more will be done to reduce gun violence after 11 people were shot, two fatally, over a holiday weekend.

The weekend of violence included a deadly shooting on Queen Street, a commercial artery, that killed two men and left one woman wounded.

The shooting happened on Saturday just before 8pm local time (12am GMT).

Gun violence in Canada's largest city appears to be taking place at a higher rate than normal.


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> This:
> 
> 
> Now, before you go thinking I was saying YOU liked watching little kids get slaughtered, let me clarify that I was NOT saying that.  I was just noting how easily gun enthusiasts drift over into their HOBBY even when the topic is related to the slaughter of little kids.


I didn't imagine you were accusing me.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> I understand it's a means of psychologically dissociating oneself from the horrors that are connected to the object of their affection (guns, in this case).  It gives one a sense of "control" by being able to dispassionately discuss gun specs and not have to think about little kids whose heads are so mangled by a bullet that their parents have to give DNA samples to identify them.


I wouldn't get into gun specs if not for the talking points of others. There's nothing to gain by ignoring any talking points, no matter how offensive they be.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> I know you are as disgusted by this horror as I am.  So I understand the temptation to want to get away from it as soon as possible.  Think about things that make one comfortable.  Talk about "gun specs" and not blood.


I'm trying to direct the discussion in a direction I feel is applicable and could bear fruit. It's being resisted for obvious reasons but those who take part here are going to have to hear it. But I am obliged to hear them too.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> Unless you don't have a passport I will suggest you tell me the fundamental differences between us and the Finns, the Brits, the Belgians, the Dutch, the German, the French, the Spanish, the Swedes...


I'm a Canadian. That which applies to this discussion would be a difference in the frequency of America's wars. This is speaking directly to the point I'm attempting to make here. Michael Moore has been making the point for years, and did so admirably well with his award winning, Bowling for Columbine.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> In fact countries with our standard of living and our general "values" don't have the problem WE have.  The difference isn't some socioeconomic thing.  But I'll leave you to figure out what the difference is.


I think 'socioeconomic' fits the description of the problem perfectly. We may have an understanding difference in the meaning. Mor explanation later if you ask.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> The abortion debate is a cannard.  The folks who are often the most pro-life are often also PRO-GUN.  That's a sickness.  It belies the fact that it really isn't a "religious" conviction for them.  They deny their Savior's exhortation to NOT live by the sword while they claim they are acting in accordance with God's will by defending the pre-born.


I don't have any authority to exclude it. You don't have to tell a Canadian about canards.
The 'god's' will could be introduced as a part of the problem, so we touch all the bases.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> But once born those kids are on their own because the pro-life crowd isn't going to vote for more welfare!
> 
> Pro Life is a joke.  They don't care about the living.  They care about control.  Controlling women's bodies is one more lever of control.  Their own faith is a joke, even to them.


I don't care to get that far off-topic, even though I can see some relevance to this discussion.


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I didn't imagine you were accusing me.
> 
> I wouldn't get into gun specs if not for the talking points of others. There's nothing to gain by ignoring any talking points, no matter how offensive they be.
> 
> ...




Do you understand that he lied in Bowling for Columbine?   That he deliberately lied about Charlton Heston, deliberately edited his speech and lied about it.....lied about other key elements?

Lies are all you fascists have..


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

surada said:


> Other countries permit abortions, stopped mass shootings and they also have universal healthcare and control their borders and illegals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My part here in this conversation is on the 'culture' of wars, killing, and death in America. All of your other issues are insignificant in comparison.

You must know by now my position and Michael Moore's position.

Rebut it but don't fear it.


----------



## surada (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> My part here in this conversation is on the 'culture' of wars, killing, and death in America. All of your other issues are insignificant in comparison.
> 
> You must know by now my position and Michael Moore's position.
> 
> Rebut it but don't fear it.



I don't follow Michael Moore.


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Do you understand that he lied in Bowling for Columbine?   That he deliberately lied about Charlton Heston, deliberately edited his speech and lied about it.....lied about other key elements?


Allow him a little artistic license. The South Park skit could be easily characterized as lies, but it was hilarious and hugely effective to his audience.


2aguy said:


> Lies are all you fascists have..



That represents your inability to face the issue. Keep it up and you'll be ignored.


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

surada said:


> I don't follow Michael Moore.


You fear the conversation that I'm trying to promote. It's never going to be easy for Americans but somebody will have to be first.

In fact, the encouraging point that was made was by 2Aguy himself when he compromised the gun lobby's position.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Do you understand that he lied in Bowling for Columbine?   That he deliberately lied about Charlton Heston, deliberately edited his speech and lied about it.....lied about other key elements?
> 
> Lies are all you fascists have..



The accusation of "Lies" is apparently all you guys have.

Literally ANYTHING that is said that DOESN'T come to the conclusion that more guns = GOOD! you will decree as a "lie".

It makes having nuanced discussions with you folks impossible, which is why I have stopped and just mock now.  You guys don't care about facts, you don't care about science, you pick and choose those things which you like the most and you call everything else a "lie".

Meanwhile *America has a mass shooting every week or so.*  When it happens you guys _try to find some way to classify it as something else!  AS IF THAT MATTERS!!_

America has the highest per capita rate of gun ownership _*and the highest rate of gun homicides in the developed world.

THAT'S ALL BECAUSE OF YOU GUYS.  100% YOUR WIN!  You won!  Now collect your prizes which are piles of dead kids so mangled that they require DNA testing to identify them*_*.*

You want guns?  This is your world.  You got 'em.

Enjoy 'em.

And the VERY SECOND ANY of you express "thoughts and prayers" or "care" about the families of the victims be prepared for people to mock you.


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> The accusation of "Lies" is apparently all you guys have.
> 
> Literally ANYTHING that is said that DOESN'T come to the conclusion that more guns = GOOD! you will decree as a "lie".
> 
> ...


Attacking him or them is not an effective approach. You'll have to learn to bear the frustration or back away.

If anything, 2Aguy is the only one of the pro-gunners on this board to have made a compromising contribution.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Attacking him or them is not an effective approach. You'll have to learn to bear the frustration of back away.



Sure, I could do that.  Which is what bullies usually want.  But my country is being held hostage to gun enthusiasts who are all too poorly trained in probabilities to understand how they are actually part of the problem.



Donald H said:


> If anything, 2Aguy is the only one of the pro-gunners on this board to have made a compromising contribution.



I must have missed that.  Usually he's pretty aggressive on his pro-gun stance.  

If so that's a good sign.

Unfortunately the time is coming where "compromise" is going to be too hard.  The side that his horrified by watching kids get mangled by guns so badly that they require DNA testing to identify them is getting really pissed and the side that is terrified that another pile of dead kids will threaten their ABILITY TO HAVE MORE GUNS is having to retrench further and further into a position where they seem to actively ignore the HORRORS to defend their hobby.

I'm at the point now where I get tired of hearing about "law abiding gun owners", mainly because they are part of the problem.  They are the ones that are keeping our country awash in guns.  And the more guns they get the higher the probability that those guns will be used either against their own family (as the studies show) or get stolen and wind up in the hands of people who will use it against innocent victims.

I honestly wish we'd show the mangled bodies after every shooting on prime-time TV.  To show everyone what we are really talking about here.  The pro-gun folks will pitch a fit because they know exactly what will happen next.

So we hide the truth.  We show videos of desperate parents in Texas screaming at police to go in and save their babies *but we bleep out the bad words*.  Why?  Because we are more terrified of bad words than we are of kids dying.

Show us the truth of this debate.  Let us make a decision based on the buckets of blood.


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Sure, I could do that.  Which is what bullies usually want.  But my country is being held hostage to gun enthusiasts who are all too poorly trained in probabilities to understand how they are actually part of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Michael Moore's main point is well known but it's being completely ignored, except for the hate that is being expressed toward him for bringing it to light.

For an idea on something productive in the meantime, until some Americans stop fearing the truth: 

The AR-15's and the large capacity magazines facilitate the large number of children killed by a shooter who has that ambition.

That's a fact! 
I don't know what to do about the problem.

*Why are you avoiding a discussion on Michael Moore's position? *

You seem to be genuinely concerned about the mass slaughter of children.

Am I wrong about that?


----------



## Hollie (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> The accusation of "Lies" is apparently all you guys have.
> 
> Literally ANYTHING that is said that DOESN'T come to the conclusion that more guns = GOOD! you will decree as a "lie".
> 
> ...


Pretty selective outrage. Typical for the wailing gun grabber types.

The Biden / leftist democrat sponsored child smuggling and _Make Mexican Cartels Rich_ crime syndicates resulted in something like 100,000 drug overdose deaths in the last calendar year.

Care to offer your "thoughts and prayers"?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Pretty selective outrage. Typical for the wailing gun grabber types.
> 
> The Biden / leftist democrat sponsored child smuggling and _Make Mexican Cartels Rich_ crime syndicates resulted in something like 100,000 drug overdose deaths in the last calendar year.
> 
> Care to offer your "thoughts and prayers"?



I don't offer thoughts and prayers.  That's your gig.  Thoughts are for those who don't want to DO anything and prayers are just oral onanism to make one feel better about their inactivity.

"Selective outrage"?  So you aren't outraged by slaughters of little kids?  Good to know that only the most stable and mentally healthy people like guns!


----------



## Hollie (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I don't offer thoughts and prayers.  That's your gig.  Thoughts are for those who don't want to DO anything and prayers are just oral onanism to make one feel better about their inactivity.
> 
> "Selective outrage"?  So you aren't outraged by slaughters of little kids?  Good to know that only the most stable and mentally healthy people like guns!


I've offered possible solutions in other threads. You offer shrill screeching but nothing more than "people who own guns are bad"

So you are OK with the Biden / Leftist drug smuggling and child trafficking syndicate? 

I'll offer my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> The accusation of "Lies" is apparently all you guys have.
> 
> Literally ANYTHING that is said that DOESN'T come to the conclusion that more guns = GOOD! you will decree as a "lie".
> 
> ...




No...we do not have a mass public shooting every week...that is a lie....

Mother Jones Mass Public Shooting Data Base had 6 mass public shootings in 2021.....as a left wing liar, even you can do the math and know that there are 52 weeks in a year....now use your fingers and toes and tell us what that means for your claim there is a mass public shooting every week...

2 in 2020

10 in 2019


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Pretty selective outrage. Typical for the wailing gun grabber types.
> 
> The Biden / leftist democrat sponsored child smuggling and _Make Mexican Cartels Rich_ crime syndicates resulted in something like 100,000 drug overdose deaths in the last calendar year.
> 
> Care to offer your "thoughts and prayers"?




251 gun murders in democrat party Chicago since Jan. 1.........mostly young black men.....

Silence from the morons like him...


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Sure, I could do that.  Which is what bullies usually want.  But my country is being held hostage to gun enthusiasts who are all too poorly trained in probabilities to understand how they are actually part of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And we should show abortions on t.v.....the babies feet sticking out of the woman and how they go rigid when the Doctor cuts the spinal cord....


----------



## flan327 (May 29, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Good for you.  That is YOUR choice and your right.  It is my right to choose to own one.


And I’m not going to take your precious gun away

DS2 owns a gun
He used to own a rifle too

Now just one gun


----------



## flan327 (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> 251 gun murders in democrat party Chicago since Jan. 1.........mostly young black men.....
> 
> Silence from the morons like him...


DS1 lives in Chicago


----------



## flan327 (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And we should show abortions on t.v.....the babies feet sticking out of the woman and how they go rigid when the Doctor cuts the spinal cord....


What is WRONG with you?


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

flan327 said:


> What is WRONG with you?




It is a medical procedure to simply remove an unviable tissue mass....why shouldn't everyone see it......?   Right?  Just like removing a mole...that is what baby killers tell us...


----------



## RetiredGySgt (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Michael Moore's main point is well known but it's being completely ignored, except for the hate that is being expressed toward him for bringing it to light.
> 
> For an idea on something productive in the meantime, until some Americans stop fearing the truth:
> 
> ...


A guy with a lever action 7 shot capacity rifle could have killed just as many on Texas as the cops wait 40 minutes to do any thing.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And we should show abortions on t.v.....the babies feet sticking out of the woman and how they go rigid when the Doctor cuts the spinal cord....



Sure.  Knock yerselves out.  You've already been doing that young women seeking abortions.  I don't know why you shouldn't be treated the same way!


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...we do not have a mass public shooting every week...that is a lie....



Is the current rate of mass shootings and dead kids still within the "noise" for you?  An "acceptable level"?  



2aguy said:


> Mother Jones



Tell me truthfully:  *do you rely on ANYTHING ELSE Mother Jones publishes for ANYTHING?*

(I know you don't because they are extremely left and you don't strike me as someone who is extremely left.  So it kinda sounds hypocritical of you to CHERRY PICK THE ONLY THING YOU LIKE from them to defend your point.  Everyone knowns they take a much more conservative value than others do.   Which is why everyone else sees the number of mass shootings we have as a "problem" where you just see it as "OK".


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> A guy with a lever action 7 shot capacity rifle could have killed just as many on Texas as the cops wait 40 minutes to do any thing.



^^^^Just earlier I was marveling at how gun advocates LOVE to talk gun specs.....*even in the middle of a discussion about the horrors of children being murdered by guns.*

I understand it, you are mortified by 20 dead kids, some of which were so ground up by the shots that they had to be identified by DNA because they couldn't visually identified by their parents.  Good for you.

But in hiding from that you run directly to your "safe topic"....GUN SPECIFICATIONS.

Do you see the problem there?  (And I understand you are former military so guns were your life...but for most American gun owners they are just sittin' at home stroking themselves to Tucker Carlson reruns).


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 29, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Agree 100%.  Guns are used in over 10,000 murders and over 20,000 suicides a year in USA.


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 29, 2022)

Human Life is precious -- it is G-d's Creation.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims agree.


----------



## Donald H (May 29, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> A guy with a lever action 7 shot capacity rifle could have killed just as many on Texas as the cops wait 40 minutes to do any thing.


Easy! The good guys with the guns didn't show up.
He probably could have killed as many children with a sharp pencil..
The problem you're not facing is what makes Americans do it so frequently


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I'm sure there must be some small advantage to things like that.  But I think the NRA and 2A advocates should make sure that they keep secret the fact that there are a LOT of options for mass shooters that will be just about as effective not equally effective.


And boy did they milk that tiny difference for all it wasn't worth.

And you're right.  There are plenty of other options besides rifles with those godawful pistol-grips.  But what are you gonna do?  Ban all of them?


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> I've actually had posters on other debate sites screaming about the pistol grip making a rifle more deadly by virtue of it being more ergonomically correct.  It's all they had, and they held on to it to the bitter end.


Technically, all shoulder fired weapon stocks have a pistol grip.


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The problem you're not facing


The problem is he tolerates your bullshit, duck.  Take you canuck ass back to the great white north and fix your own fucked up country.


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Pro Life is a joke. They don't care about the living.


Nice speculation from a person who admits advocating for the murder of innocent souls.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Meanwhile *America has a mass shooting every week or so.*


Llist them . . .


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> And boy did they milk that tiny difference for all it wasn't worth.
> 
> And you're right.  There are plenty of other options besides rifles with those godawful pistol-grips.  But what are you gonna do?  Ban all of them?



Right?  I mean if you constantly remind the folks who aren't supportive of guns that there's little difference, functionally between a semi-auto hunting rifle and an AR-15 they might start saying that guns are bad.  And then they'd read the science articles that show more guns correlates with more deaths and next thing you know they're banning ALL guns!

Then all the folks who want to murder little kids will have to go out and buy up all the steak knives and get REALLY FAST at stabbing.  (But since there's no "right" to steak knives it would be an easy task to put steak knives on a registry and track the people who start hoarding steak knives.)


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

flan327 said:


> And I’m not going to take your precious gun away


That's a given.  I can pretty much guarantee it.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> ^^^^Just earlier I was marveling at how gun advocates LOVE to talk gun specs.....*even in the middle of a discussion about the horrors of children being murdered by guns.*
> 
> I understand it, you are mortified by 20 dead kids, some of which were so ground up by the shots that they had to be identified by DNA because they couldn't visually identified by their parents.  Good for you.
> 
> ...


Do you want all semiautomatic rifles banned?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> Llist them . . .



Thurston High School.
Columbine High School.
Heritage High School.
Deming Middle School.
Fort Gibson Middle School.
Buell Elementary School.
Lake Worth Middle School.
University of Arkansas.
Junipero Serra High School.
Santana High School.
Bishop Neumann High School.
Pacific Lutheran University.
Granite Hills High School.
Lew Wallace High School.
Martin Luther King, Jr. High School.
Appalachian School of Law.
Washington High School.
Conception Abbey.
Benjamin Tasker Middle School.
University of Arizona.
Lincoln High School.
John McDonogh High School.
Red Lion Area Junior High School.
Case Western Reserve University.
Rocori High School.
Ballou High School.
Randallstown High School.
Bowen High School.
Red Lake Senior High School.
Harlan Community Academy High School.
Campbell County High School.
Milwee Middle School.
Roseburg High School.
Pine Middle School.
Essex Elementary School.
Duquesne University.
Platte Canyon High School.
Weston High School.
West Nickel Mines School.
Joplin Memorial Middle School.
Henry Foss High School.
Compton Centennial High School.
Virginia Tech.
Success Tech Academy.
Miami Carol City Senior High School.
Hamilton High School.
Louisiana Technical College.
Mitchell High School.
E.O. Green Junior High School.
Northern Illinois University.
Lakota Middle School.
Knoxville Central High School.
Willoughby South High School.
Henry Ford High School.
University of Central Arkansas.
Dillard High School.
Dunbar High School.
Hampton University.
Harvard College.
Larose-Cut Off Middle School.
International Studies Academy.
Skyline College.
Discovery Middle School.
University of Alabama.
DeKalb School.
Deer Creek Middle School.
Ohio State University.
Mumford High School.
University of Texas.
Kelly Elementary School.
Marinette High School.
Aurora Central High School.
Millard South High School.
Martinsville West Middle School.
Worthing High School.
Millard South High School.
Highlands Intermediate School.
Cape Fear High School.
Chardon High School.
Episcopal School of Jacksonville.
Oikos University.
Hamilton High School.
Perry Hall School.
Normal Community High School.
University of South Alabama.
Banner Academy South.
University of Southern California.
Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Apostolic Revival Center Christian School.
Taft Union High School.
Osborn High School.
Stevens Institute of Business and Arts.
Hazard Community and Technical College.
Chicago State University.
Lone Star College-North.
Cesar Chavez High School.
Price Middle School.
University of Central Florida.
New River Community College.
Grambling State University.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School.
Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy.
North Panola High School.
Carver High School.
Agape Christian Academy.
Sparks Middle School.
North Carolina A&T State University.
Stephenson High School.
Brashear High School.
West Orange High School.
Arapahoe High School.
Edison High School.
Liberty Technology Magnet High School.
Hillhouse High School.
Berrendo Middle School.
Purdue University.
South Carolina State University.
Los Angeles Valley College.
Charles F. Brush High School.
University of Southern California.
Georgia Regents University.
Academy of Knowledge Preschool.
Benjamin Banneker High School.
D. H. Conley High School.
East English Village Preparatory Academy.
Paine College.
Georgia Gwinnett College.
John F. Kennedy High School.
Seattle Pacific University.
Reynolds High School.
Indiana State University.
Albemarle High School.
Fern Creek Traditional High School.
Langston Hughes High School.
Marysville Pilchuck High School.
Florida State University.
Miami Carol City High School.
Rogers State University.
Rosemary Anderson High School.
Wisconsin Lutheran High School.
Frederick High School.
Tenaya Middle School.
Bethune-Cookman University.
Pershing Elementary School.
Wayne Community College.
J.B. Martin Middle School.
Southwestern Classical Academy.
Savannah State University.
Harrisburg High School.
Umpqua Community College.
Northern Arizona University.
Texas Southern University.
Tennessee State University.
Winston-Salem State University.
Mojave High School.
Lawrence Central High School.
Franklin High School.
Muskegon Heights High School.
Independence High School.
Madison High School.
Antigo High School.
University of California-Los Angeles.
Jeremiah Burke High School.
Alpine High School.
Townville Elementary School.
Vigor High School.
Linden McKinley STEM Academy.
June Jordan High School for Equity.
Union Middle School.
Mueller Park Junior High School.
West Liberty-Salem High School.
University of Washington.
King City High School.
North Park Elementary School.
North Lake College.
Freeman High School.
Mattoon High School.
Rancho Tehama Elementary School.
Aztec High School.
Wake Forest University.
Italy High School.
NET Charter High School.
Marshall County High School.
Sal Castro Middle School.
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
Great Mills High School
Central Michigan University
Huffman High School
Frederick Douglass High School
Forest High School
Highland High School
Dixon High School
Santa Fe High School
Noblesville West Middle School
University of North Carolina Charlotte
STEM School Highlands Ranch
Edgewood High School
Palm Beach Central High School
Providence Career & Technical Academy
Fairley High School (school bus)
Canyon Springs High School
Dennis Intermediate School
Florida International University
Central Elementary School
Cascade Middle School
Davidson High School
Prairie View A & M University
Altascocita High School
Central Academy of Excellence
Cleveland High School
Robert E. Lee High School
Cheyenne South High School
Grambling State University
Blountsville Elementary School
Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)
Prescott High School
College of the Mainland
Wynbrooke Elementary School
UNC Charlotte
Riverview Florida (school bus)
Second Chance High School
Carman-Ainsworth High School
Williwaw Elementary School
Monroe Clark Middle School
Central Catholic High School
Jeanette High School
Eastern Hills High School
DeAnza High School
Ridgway High School
Reginald F. Lewis High School
Saugus High School
Pleasantville High School
Waukesha South High School
Oshkosh High School
Catholic Academy of New Haven
Bellaire High School
North Crowley High School
McAuliffe Elementary School
South Oak Cliff High School
Texas A&M University-Commerce
Sonora High School
Western Illinois University
Oxford High School
Robb Elementary School


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> Do you want all semiautomatic rifles banned?



Just the ones that make it easy for someone to kill a lot of people quickly.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Technically, all shoulder fired weapon stocks have a pistol grip.


Yeah, but not as pronounced as the one on an AR-15.  And that's what bothers a lot of people.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Thurston High School.
> Columbine High School.
> Heritage High School.
> Deming Middle School.
> ...


Now how many of those involved an AR-15?


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Just the ones that make it easy for someone to kill a lot of people quickly.


Be specific . . .


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> Now how many of those involved an AR-15?



I don't know.  I don't actually care.  I'm not on a war against AR-15's since they are so similar in function to much more mundane looking semi-autos.

Would it make much of a difference if we knew which were AR-15s?

Would it make those dead kids less "problematic"?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> Be specific . . .



I think I've been pretty specific.  It's a pretty simple rubric.  I think you can figure out which ones.


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I don't know.  I don't actually care.  I'm not on a war against AR-15's since they are so similar in function to much more mundane looking semi-autos.
> 
> Would it make much of a difference if we knew which were AR-15s?
> 
> Would it make those dead kids less "problematic"?


Where is your venom at the perpetrator of the OKC bombings.  There were many more children killed and maimed there.  I get it--he didn't use a gun.  However the common thread was he had mental problems that were not addressed.  Address the problem and quit blaming inanimate objects.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Where is your venom at the perpetrator of the OKC bombings.



Umm, sorry I didn't know it was time to bring that up.  Yes I'm against him too.  But then he was pretty upset by the government trying to take guns from a nutjob religious sect.



Concerned American said:


> There were many more children killed and maimed there.  I get it--he didn't use a gun.



No, but he was mad because people he agreed with were being told to give up their guns so he decided that he'd take revenge with a bomb.



Concerned American said:


> However the common thread was he had mental problems that were not addressed.  Address the problem and quit blaming inanimate objects.



You act as if mental healthcare is really easy to get and free here in America.  Maybe you guys who like guns so much would be willing to pay a special surcharge on your guns and ammo purchases that would help fund improved mental healthcare?  Oh wait, most of you guys don't like that idea because most of you don't give a flying fuck about the mentally ill, they are just handy ways to distract the conversation away from the really efficient tools the mentally ill have access to to make their wildest horrors come true.

If I had a hobby that had countless numbers of cases where people killed others with that hobby I would seriously consider giving up some of my "rights" with regards to that hobby.

But then I actually DO care about other people and not so much about guns.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I don't know.  I don't actually care.  I'm not on a war against AR-15's since they are so similar in function to much more mundane looking semi-autos.
> 
> Would it make much of a difference if we knew which were AR-15s?
> 
> Would it make those dead kids less "problematic"?


From you list I picked the Wisconsin Lutheran High School shooting:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
_According to police, an altercation occurred between two female students at a basketball game  -- one from Wisconsin Lutheran H.S.  and one from another school.  While they were escorted out at different times, they met up in the parking lot, where a fight ensued between the females and others, to include at least one parent.

At one point the father of one of the female students pulled out a firearm and shot a 15-year-old male from Milwaukee. He received a non-life threatening wound and was transported by family to a local hospital for treatment._
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

How many of your examples are going to turn out to not be someone bent on killing as many students as possible?


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I don't know.


Yes.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I think I've been pretty specific.  It's a pretty simple rubric.  I think you can figure out which ones.


Good.  You are on record as believing that the AR-15 should be banned.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> From you list I picked the Wisconsin Lutheran High School shooting:
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> _According to police, an altercation occurred between two female students at a basketball game  -- one from Wisconsin Lutheran H.S.  and one from another school.  While they were escorted out at different times, they met up in the parking lot, where a fight ensued between the females and others, to include at least one parent.
> ...



What does it say about you that you are now going to go through the entire list and try to find ways to suggest that a man shooting a kid at a school isn't a problem?

I'm utterly fascinated by pathological thinking, so it's interesting that kids getting shot doesn't bother you unless it hits a certain level (TBD) or has a certain characteristic.

What a treat to see the sickness writ large.  Thanks.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> Good.  You are on record as believing that the AR-15 should be banned.



As well as the others in the class that I outlined.  

Are you having trouble with this somehow?  I've been pretty clear on my point.  Are you not able to follow?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> Yes.



Sure, why not?


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Is the current rate of mass shootings and dead kids still within the "noise" for you?  An "acceptable level"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They use the actual definition and don’t falsely pas their numbers……an amazing change for a left wing news source


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Right?  I mean if you constantly remind the folks who aren't supportive of guns that there's little difference, functionally between a semi-auto hunting rifle and an AR-15 they might start saying that guns are bad.  And then they'd read the science articles that show more guns correlates with more deaths and next thing you know they're banning ALL guns!
> 
> Then all the folks who want to murder little kids will have to go out and buy up all the steak knives and get REALLY FAST at stabbing.  (But since there's no "right" to steak knives it would be an easy task to put steak knives on a registry and track the people who start hoarding steak knives.)



No….more guns don’t correlate to more gun murders….the leftists lie about that number by throwing in suicides that inflate the numbers in low gun murder red states


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Where is your venom at the perpetrator of the OKC bombings.  There were many more children killed and maimed there.  I get it--he didn't use a gun.  However the common thread was he had mental problems that were not addressed.  Address the problem and quit blaming inanimate obje





Cardinal Carminative said:


> What does it say about you that you are now going to go through the entire list and try to find ways to suggest that a man shooting a kid at a school isn't a problem?
> 
> I'm utterly fascinated by pathological thinking, so it's interesting that kids getting shot doesn't bother you unless it hits a certain level (TBD) or has a certain characteristic.
> 
> What a treat to see the sickness writ large.  Thanks.


No no no!  You're bringing up some school shootings in which the shooting was gang related and had occurred at one in the morning.  Others occurred when a stray bullet hit a school when someone was elsewhere.  Maybe you should actually read about what you bring forth.  It'll keep you honest.

You want AR-15s banned even though they're the least used weapon in school shooting and mass shooting. That's being hysterical.  Don't you think?


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Agree 100%.  Guns are used in over 10,000 murders and over 20,000 suicides a year in USA.



And are used 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, savage beatings, stabbings and yes, even mass public shootings…..

This very week a woman in West Virginia used her concealed carry pistol to kill and stop a mass public shooter with an AR-15 rifle…

She was not a Navt SEAL….

You ignore all the lives saved by guns…

Also… the 10,000 or so murders were caused by democrat party policies….attacking the police to the point they can’t stop criminals and releasing the most violent and dangerous gun criminals over and over again leads to more gun crime and murder…….

It is almost as if you asshats want more young black men murdered in democrat party controlled cities


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> They use the actual definition and don’t falsely pas their numbers……an amazing change for a left wing news source



In science this is called "confirmation bias".  It is kind of neat to see you so quickly gravitate to it.  

If I were to listen to you I'd think *the majority of humans in this country are insane* for being disgusted with world-leading levels of gun homicides and gun violence.  Listening to you guys *this is all perfectly fine and normal*.

What kind of country do you WANT?  Is it one where there's record-breaking levels of gun homicides unlike any other similarly situated country?  Is that what you LIKE about the US?  Is it an ATTRACTION?  Or do you simply ignore it or work overtime to find confirmation biased sources so you don't have to think about it?

Would you be willing to tell the families of Newtown, Stoneman Douglas and Uvalde that they are just something that "happens", oops, no problem?

For a second imagine yourself telling those parents that their kids' death was just "in the noise" for you and that they are acting irrationally to be upset about it.

(I know even YOU aren't that brave, lol)


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (May 29, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?


Yet you support Planned Parenthood and abortion up to birth.
Hypocrisy at it's worst.


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> In science this is called "confirmation bias".  It is kind of neat to see you so quickly gravitate to it.
> 
> If I were to listen to you I'd think *the majority of humans in this country are insane* for being disgusted with world-leading levels of gun homicides and gun violence.  Listening to you guys *this is all perfectly fine and normal*.
> 
> ...



Well, until idiots like you stop voting for the racist democrat party, the party driving the gun murder rates in the cities they control, we have to live in this country…

But at least our government…..because we have armed citizens, didnt murder 15 million of us the way the Europeans did…..more people killed than all of our gun crime murders combined ……


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No….more guns don’t correlate to more gun murders….the leftists lie about that number by throwing in suicides that inflate the numbers in low gun murder red states



I love how you guys go to such extemes to try to make death not a death that counts.

It has GOT to be exhausting finding loopholes to save your hobby.

You clearly have an idea of how fucked up you are being with regards to guns or you wouldn't go to so much effort, which is good to know that you guys aren't total psychopaths, but you should try once in a while to act like human life has SOME meaning to you.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (May 29, 2022)

NOT ONE of the anti gun bots posting in this thread really cares about children dying.

If they really did, they'd immediately stop voting for Democrats and Progressives.
All you need to know.

People who have no belief in Jesus or a moral compass.....pretending to care about the deaths of children is seriously demented lunacy.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> In science this is called "confirmation bias".  It is kind of neat to see you so quickly gravitate to it.
> 
> If I were to listen to you I'd think *the majority of humans in this country are insane* for being disgusted with world-leading levels of gun homicides and gun violence.  Listening to you guys *this is all perfectly fine and normal*.
> 
> ...


Assuming you get your wish and ban semiautomatic weapons, and people start using sawed-off shotguns, are you going to talk about how many lives will be saved if only people would give up their shotguns?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Well, until idiots like you stop voting for the racist democrat party, the party driving the gun murder rates in the cities they control, we have to live in this country…



LOL!  All the classic hits!



2aguy said:


> But at least our government…..because we have armed citizens, didnt murder 15 million of us the way the Europeans did…..more people killed than all of our gun crime murders combined ……



Oh JEEZUS when will you STOP with this point?  In your world there are only two states:

1. Murdering monster dictators killing people all the time
2. Periodic slaughters of little kids.


Apparently #2 is OK with you.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> NOT ONE of the anti gun bots posting in this thread really cares about children dying.
> 
> If they really did, they'd immediately stop voting for Democrats and Progressives.
> All you need to know.


The


Cardinal Carminative said:


> LOL!  All the classic hits!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you go through your list to find out what actually qualifies as a school shooting?

And you're not going to, are you?

And what about shotguns when people start using those?

And what about the victims of home invasion?  Would you rather they duked it out with the perpetrator?  You must appreciate a good fight!


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Briss said:


> The
> 
> Did you go through your list to find out what actually qualifies as a school shooting?
> 
> And you're not going to, are you?



Sorry, psycho, I don't necessarily differentiate.  Dead kids or shot kids are shot kids in my book.

Maybe YOU can take the time to parse out which times guns shooting kids is OK and let me know so that I will know which humans are "expendible" by your calculus.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Well, until idiots like you stop voting for the racist democrat party, the party driving the gun murder rates in the cities they control, we have to live in this country…
> 
> But at least our government…..because we have armed citizens, didnt murder 15 million of us the way the Europeans did…..more people killed than all of our gun crime murders combined ……



The bot you are arguing with is likely a paid George Soros troll, getting $10 a day to make these anti gun posts.
They have no actual concern with the deaths of children.
But having no moral compass, they will post absolutely anything (complete lies and BS) to try to buff up their relentless disinformation and crocodile tears.

Arguing with them is no different than having an argument with the aft end of a donkey.


----------



## Briss (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Sorry, psycho, I don't necessarily differentiate.  Dead kids or shot kids are shot kids in my book.
> 
> Maybe YOU can take the time to parse out which times guns shooting kids is OK and let me know so that I will know which humans are "expendible" by your calculus.


No, I'm telling you that your list was put together by someone who didn't care that the shootings had nothing at all to do with children. That's called being dishonest.  And you, not bothering to check your own sources, are kind of like that dishonest person who made up your list.  You don't care if it's accurate as long as it backs your idea.

So, by your own admission, you don't differentiate between misleading examples of school shootings and the truth.  Good to know.


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> a special surcharge on your guns and ammo purchases that would help fund improved mental healthcare?


Just as soon as you pay the surcharge on your diesel, fertilizer, pressure cooker and nut and bolt purchases along with a surcharge on your car and truck rentals.  It is not the tool, moron.  It is the PERSON that uses it.  If guns, knives, baseball bats etc are not available, the mentally infirm will find another tool.  Run along now, gun grabber.


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> What kind of country do you WANT?


One where all people of your ilk move to your utopia and leave us alone.


----------



## Dayton3 (May 29, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's what mass shooters usually use to kill people.



The Virgina Tech shooter used two pistols to kill more than any other mass shooter in a school in the U.S.


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> For a second imagine yourself telling those parents that their kids' death was just "in the noise" for you and that they are acting irrationally to be upset about it.


Your faux concern IS the noise.  You don't give a fiddlers fuck about those victims--you are focused on gun grabbing.  Your stance on abortion is proof of that--Sixty three million murders since Roe v. Wade isn't enough for you.  Your gun argument is disingenuous.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Your faux concern IS the noise.  You don't give a fiddlers fuck about those victims



I am getting tired of you guys saying that.  At least we want to see SOMETHING DONE.  You seem to just shrug your shoulders and walk on.

How is it that I'M the one who doesn't care???



Concerned American said:


> --you are focused on gun grabbing.



*because 20 little kids were so mangled that some couldn't be identified visually.  *

The facts are:  America has more guns per capita than any other developed nation on earth and we are the ONLY developed nation that has as many mass shootings and schoolhouse slaughters as we do.

YOU do the math.



Concerned American said:


> Your stance on abortion is proof of that--Sixty three million murders since Roe v. Wade isn't enough for you.



What, praytell is my position on abortion, ******?  I'll tell you what it is :

I do NOT like abortion.  I wish it was NEVER DONE.  But it isn't my choice you fascist hole. 

I vote for improved welfare and social safety net.  I put my money where my mouth is.

*WHAT DO YOU DO?*

You sit around hassling women going into an abortion clinic?  You blow hard on an internet forum?  What?



Concerned American said:


> Your gun argument is disingenuous.



***********


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> At least we want to see SOMETHING DONE.


Provide security at schools.  Provide mental health care for those who obviously need it (read Piglosi, Biden, AOC) and get off the backs and out of the homes of responsible, law-abiding gun owners.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 29, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Provide security at schools.  Provide mental health care for those who obviously need it (read Piglosi, Biden, AOC) and get off the backs and out of the homes of responsible, law-abiding gun owners.



Would you be willing to pay a surcharge on all gun and ammo purchases to support improved mental healthcare?


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Would you be willing to pay a surcharge on all gun and ammo purchases to support improved mental healthcare?


AN EMPHATIC NO.  Maybe give that 25 million that the democrats gave the Kennedy Center for the Arts to mental health care.  Maybe some of that "free food" money for kids who come from homes where they are well fed.  How about 50 billion that the vegetable and democrats just gave Ukraine (whom we have NO treaties with) Medicaid already will cover it, moron.  But, you are so original that the best you can come up with is attacking law abiding citizens constitutional rights.


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> But it isn't my choice you fascist hole.


You elected the democrat fascists that are responsible for it, so YEAH, IT IS YOUR CHOICE.


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Would you be willing to pay a surcharge on all gun and ammo purchases to support improved mental healthcare?



Don’t have to…..the government already gets all the money they need to spend on those things…


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (May 29, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> The Virgina Tech shooter used two pistols to kill more than any other mass shooter in a school in the U.S.



SHHHHHH!

They'll be demanding those too!


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (May 29, 2022)

As you can see, there is no reasoning with these tyrannical, boot licking heathens.

Freedom was never free.   This will come down to whether or not you personally are willing to pay the price to keep your freedom.
No payment, no freedom.
IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE.


----------



## Batcat (May 29, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Elections at the national level are VERY expensive. The amount of money the NRA gives most Congress critters is not all that great. Congress critters vote against draconian gun legislation because they realize they will be voted out of office if they do. It’s not the NRA, it’s the voters. 









						Guns
					

Do you have a gun in your home? In general, do you feel that the laws covering the sale of firearms should be made more strict, less strict, or kept as they are now? Do you think there should or should not be a law that would ban the possession of handguns, except by the police and other...




					news.gallup.com
				












						First-Time Gun Buyers Grow to Nearly 5 Million in 2020
					

NSSF updated retail survey-based estimates and concluded that nearly 5 million Americans purchased a firearm for the very first time in 2020.




					www.nssf.org
				




Keep in mind that many new gun owners are minorities or black. 









						90% of New Gun Owners Are Minorities and Women - Inside Scoop Politics
					

Around 7.5 million Americans became new gun owners in 28 months starting in January 2019. The vast majority (90%) of these new gun owners were female and minorities. Democrats are losing votes in droves because of their focus on gun control. In 2021, trucker Edward Durr won in New Jersey...




					insidescooppolitics.com
				




The AR-15 is often used for hunting. Don’t beleive the bullshit the liberal media tells you.









						12 reasons I hunt with an AR-15 (and you should too) :: Guns.com
					

for those people in my life who like to question my experience and how I spend my weekends, who don’t see the ‘reasons’ why AR-15s can be the best hunting rifle tool for the job—well how about 13…




					www.guns.com
				












						Should Your Next Deer Rifle Be an AR-15?
					

As AR-15 rifles have become more popular among casual shooters, hunters have wondered if it's the right platform for their next deer gun. So, we're here to break down the pros and cons of toting an AR on your next hunt. Some of these will apply to other kinds of semi-automatic rifles like the...




					www.themeateater.com
				




***snip***

_
*Pro #1: Semi-Auto Fire* This is the first and most obvious advantage an AR-15 can provide over other types of bolt-, lever-, or pump-action rifles. Semi-auto systems come with their own set of complications (more on that below), but the ability to quickly pull the trigger more than once is without question a benefit in certain hunting situations. It's why varmint hunters love this platform.
Deer hunters pride themselves on not needing more than one shot to take down an animal, but no one’s perfect. Hunt long enough and you’re sure to find yourself eventually making an ill-placed shot that necessitates a follow-up. An AR-15 gives hunters the ability to make a second shot in a fraction of a second which could mean the difference between a lost animal and venison sausage.
*Pro #2: Modularity and Customizability* AR-15s are occasionally compared to Legos—and with good reason. The rifle system is infinitely customizable by even the most amateur gunsmith. From the stock to the trigger to the handguard, everything on an AR-15 can be upgraded to meet a specific goal or application.
A single lower receiver, for example, can accept different upper receivers fitted with barrels chambered in different calibers. A hunter can use an upper chambered in .223 Rem. for prairie dogs or other varmint and swap it out for an upper chambered in .300 Blackout for hogs or whitetails. Hunters can also build super-light rifles for mountain hunts or bull-barrel rifles for long-range or stand hunting._


----------



## Concerned American (May 29, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> America has more guns per capita


I have more guns than the per capita American average.  So what.  In my many years, none of my guns nor I have ever committed a weapons related crime.   Indeed, the only rounds that I have ever fired at a human were in the Marine Corps defending your right to attempt to steal mine.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 29, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> In the 1960s Ronald Reagan was Governor of California. The Black Panthars in Oakland, CA were becoming active and wanted to protect their neighborhoods from police brutality against African-Americans.
> They started openly carrying guns. Once they even visited the California state Capitol building carrying guns. (I know Reagan didn't like that).
> So---Gov Reagan made a new law stating it was illegal to openly carry guns in public. No such law had existed in California before that.
> Just an example of what politicians can do when and if they want to.



Cant ban "open carry".  That's decided law.  In fact, MORE states than NOT have VOTED IN very generous "open carry" laws in the past 10 years.  

What Reagan did was to prohibit carry of LOADED firearms.  The Black Panthers were STILL free to march and assemble with UNLOADED weapons.  AND -- carry the ammunition with them.  Anything like YOU WOULD have wanted -- probably would get thrown at court.  It's a "feel good" thing.  And common sense safety in urban areas.

I liked seeing miltant Blacks marching armed at Stone Mountain Ga.  That place has a 100 year odor of GOVT ASSISTED racism and bias. This was in response to George Floyd.  IRONIC HUH Mr. T -- that blacks can DO THIS in GA,  but not any "blue state".  I find that telling. 









						200 heavily-armed Black protesters demand removal of Confederate monument
					

HUNDREDS of heavily armed protesters brandishing rifles marched through a state park, calling for a massive Confederate carving to be removed. As many as 200 protesters descended on Georgia’s Stone…




					www.thesun.co.uk


----------



## Briss (May 30, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> The Virgina Tech shooter used two pistols to kill more than any other mass shooter in a school in the U.S.


I've already asked her to back up her claim that the AR-15 is the choice of school shooters and mass shooters. And, like everyone else who makes up their own facts on the spot to back a point they _wish_ were true, they eventually get called on it . . . like right now.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Don’t have to…..the government already gets all the money they need to spend on those things…



Apparently not.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> I have more guns than the per capita American average.  So what.



Well, it possibly indicates you think you have made a significant point but it is more telling that you don't really seem to understand statistics.  It's not surprising that some people will have more than the per capita average.  That's kind of how it all works.




Concerned American said:


> In my many years, none of my guns nor I have ever committed a weapons related crime.



I think you are missing the larger point.  You are ONE DATA POINT.  But there are MILLIONS of Americans like you.  You have made sure there is a SEA of guns in our society.  And not all other people are going to be as good about guarding their guns as you!  That means a few evil-doers will have an EASIER time of getting ahold of a stolen gun to do evil with.  That's the PROBABILITY ANGLE.  If you swamp a nation with guns and you have millions of people of varying levels of responsibility you *automatically increase the probability of bad things happening with those guns*.

I know this is a subtle point but some day a gun enthusiast will come on this forum and have at least a nodding acquaintance with probability to see that that is part of the problem.

As such YOU are part of the problem.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> You elected the democrat fascists that are responsible for it, so YEAH, IT IS YOUR CHOICE.



You don't seem particularly sharp.  I guess you didn't really read my post for content which is not surprising.  You wanted to make some cheap political point that had nothing to do with what I said.  In your circle I'm sure you are a world-class wit.

Sadly you failed here.  Go back and re-read the post and TRY this time to track on what ALL THE WORDS MEAN _TOGETHER_!

(I am always amazed at how subliterate some of you folks are).


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> As you can see, there is no reasoning with these tyrannical, boot licking heathens.
> 
> Freedom was never free.



Can I just say your rhetoric is so OVER-THE-TOP you sound like the world's biggest drama queen.  You deserve an actor for chewing up so much scenery with you hyperbolic BS.



BasicHumanUnit said:


> This will come down to whether or not you personally are willing to pay the price to keep your freedom.
> No payment, no freedom.
> IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE.



You guys should go off and start your own country where everyone walks around settling scores with their guns.  The rest of us would just like to go to our jobs, go to the theater, go to the grocery store without YOU LOT running around like unhinged psychos who strangely have access to deadly weaponry.

You know life doesn't HAVE to be a constant gun-battle.  That's YOUR FANTASY.  Not ours.

YOU are part of the problem.  YOUR rhetoric, YOUR bizarre fears, YOU made this country into a gun-swamped pit full of paranoid loons.

THIS ISN'T HOW THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD LIVES.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Cant ban "open carry".  That's decided law.  In fact, MORE states than NOT have VOTED IN very generous "open carry" laws in the past 10 years.
> 
> What Reagan did was to prohibit carry of LOADED firearms.  The Black Panthers were STILL free to march and assemble with UNLOADED weapons.  AND -- carry the ammunition with them.  Anything like YOU WOULD have wanted -- probably would get thrown at court.  It's a "feel good" thing.  And common sense safety in urban areas.



Reagan was a friend to all black people.  Even the "welfare queens" he made up.




flacaltenn said:


> I liked seeing miltant Blacks marching armed at Stone Mountain Ga.  That place has a 100 year odor of GOVT ASSISTED racism and bias. This was in response to George Floyd.  IRONIC HUH Mr. T -- that blacks can DO THIS in GA,  but not any "blue state".  I find that telling.



It fascinates me that you are somehow bragging about how Georgia is more accepting of black protests.  Stone Mountain is YOUR THING.  It is OWNED by the STATE OF GEORGIA.

And it's been a major tourist attraction for the KKK for decades.  

I honestly don't know how you somehow made it sound like Georgia was not racist.




flacaltenn said:


> 200 heavily-armed Black protesters demand removal of Confederate monument
> 
> 
> HUNDREDS of heavily armed protesters brandishing rifles marched through a state park, calling for a massive Confederate carving to be removed. As many as 200 protesters descended on Georgia’s Stone…
> ...


----------



## Dayton3 (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Reagan was a friend to all black people.  Even the "welfare queens" he made up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stone  Mountain was an icon for the SECOND incarnation of the KKK.   Not the original version and not the current  one.

Why have people never learned that there have been three distinct versions of the KKK?   Each one more ineffectual than the last.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Are you this stupid or just lying....


Comprehension is clearly not your strongpoint when deleriously frothing about guns. We were talking about rifles, you know, those long things with stocks, when he posted a picture of hand guns, I merely pointed that out anf you were off to the races, do calm down and keep up.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron.....you try hitting a moving target full of teeth and aggression.....you idiot...


So now you claim your burglars are "full of teeth and aggression" ROFL! Oh, and yes I have hit a target moving towards me at speed with a bolt action rifle, thank you.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 30, 2022)

Briss said:


> I guess this is your way of saying you don't give a damn about the victims of home invasion. Why would you want victims of home invasion to not be able to stop the intruder?


A home invasion can be prevented by having decent doors and windows and/or an alarm fitted for a fraction of the price of a firearm and ammunition. But then again if Americans choose to live in houses with insecure doors and windows...
What you call "home invasions" are so rare as to be discounted in the UK, we have perhaps one a year at most. Just like we have a mass shooting once every decade or so, unlike the USA which seems to have one a month at least.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> That means a few evil-doers will have an EASIER time of getting ahold of a stolen gun to do evil with.


And that makes sense how?  You are one data point in a sea of vehicle owners.   Maybe we should ban vehicles because a few evil people have used them in mass murder.  Your argument makes no logical sense.  Again, it is a tool.  If they can't find one--which will never happen, they have shootings in countries where gun ownership is illegal too.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 30, 2022)

Markle said:


> I said they were semi-automatic weapons. Do pay attention.


Given the subject was rifles, I merely pointed out the irrelevence of the pistols, clearly tou weren't paying attention.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A home invasion can be prevented by having decent doors and windows


A person shouldn't have to live in a metal box in order to be safe from home invasion.  The places in the US where home invasions are prevalent are forced to virtually do exactly that.


----------



## Hollie (May 30, 2022)

Relative Ethics


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> A person shouldn't have to live in a metal box in order to be safe from home invasion.


Who said anything about living in a metal box?


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> YOU are part of the problem.


People who demand to control others who are innocent of any wrong doing in order to reach their perceived level of safety are the problem, moron.  A great American once said, "Those who would trade freedom for safety, deserve neither"  (Ben Franklin)


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Who said anything about living in a metal box?


Those "secure" doors and windows that are anything less than a metal box have proven ineffective in the areas of the US where home invasions are most prevalent.  Criminals belong behind bars--not their victims.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I am always amazed at how subliterate some of you folks are


Maybe you should look in the mirror, fascist.


----------



## Death Angel (May 30, 2022)

Was the kid a member of the NRA? Did he murder on their behalf?

The NRA represents MILLIONS of Americans. Why do you want to deny them a voice in political matters? Are you a fascist?


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A home invasion can be prevented by having decent doors and windows and/or an alarm fitted for a fraction of the price of a firearm and ammunition. But then again if Americans choose to live in houses with insecure doors and windows...
> What you call "home invasions" are so rare as to be discounted in the UK, we have perhaps one a year at most. Just like we have a mass shooting once every decade or so, unlike the USA which seems to have one a month at least.




No, it can't.........those simply give you time to get to your gun.......

They are not rare in the U.K.....they happen more in the U.K. than the U.S.....our criminals know not to enter our homes when people are home....they can get shot...

In Britain, they enter at will, and torture the victims to get their belongings...

I guess this rich couple didn't have the magic doors and windows that keep criminals away...

*In Merry old England....*

Wealthy retired couple tortured by burglars who forced wife to walk on broken glass in £20,000 raid


*wealthy couple were tortured by "Swat team" burglars who forced the wife to walk on broken glass before breaking one of her toes with a sledgehammer while stealing £20,000 of gold and jewels.

Professional burglars John McCarthy, 35, and Richard Leslie, 37, were branded "every householder's worst nightmare" after playing leading roles in the gang that terrorised the vulnerable pensioners for four hours during a night-time raid.

--------

During their ordeal, the couple, aged in their 70s, were bound with tape, beaten, threatened and locked in a utility room.

The burglars hit the 77-year-old man with a chair and forced his 75-year-old wife to walk barefoot on glass, having discarded her slippers.

One of the burglars threatened to cut off the wife's fingers and ear with a pair of shears if gold, cash and Rolex watches were not produced.

She also needed extensive dental treatment because of the beating to her face. Her husband was stuck with pins "many times" to extort more valuables, the court heard.

During the attack, one of the armed intruders boasted: "This is what we do for a living."

They made off with Chinese ornaments in 24 carat gold, jewellery, silver commemorative coins featuring Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher, gold bars, a custom-made Seiko watch as well as thousands of pounds and Hong Kong dollars in cash.*
*============

An Englishman's home is his dungeon

Various reassuring types, from police spokesmen to the Economist, described the stabbing of the Moncktons as a "burglary gone wrong". If only more burglaries could go right, they imply, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
But the trouble is that this kind of burglary - the kind most likely to go "wrong" - is now the norm in Britain. In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present. But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.


These days, even as he or she is being clobbered, the more thoughtful British subject is usually keeping an eye (the one that hasn't been poked out) on potential liability. 

Four years ago, Shirley Best, proprietor of the Rolander Fashion emporium, whose clients include Zara Phillips, was ironing some clothes when the proverbial two youths showed up. *

*They pressed the hot iron into her flesh, burning her badly, and then stole her watch.*

* "I was frightened to defend myself," said Miss Best. "I thought if I did anything I would be arrested." There speaks the modern British crime victim.

Waterboarded by a gang of robbers in her £7m home: Masked intruders torture grandmother, 73, for three hours to make her open a safe
*
*
That led to a terrifying three-hour ordeal in which the attackers used waterboarding – a form of torture in which the victim is made to feel they are about to be drowned.*


*The men took underwear from Mrs Jansen’s bedroom and forced it into her mouth before dragging her into the en-suite bathroom. They pulled her head back over the bath and covered her face with a towel they kept flooded with water from the shower head.
‘They did this to me three times but I just couldn’t open the safe,’ she said. ‘I kept telling them it was empty but they didn’t believe me.’


Mrs Jansen, who lives on a private estate in Weybridge, Surrey, told the Mail: ‘I was absolutely terrified, I thought they were going to kill me.*


*‘They asked me if I had any grandchildren, I told them I had ten and they said “We are going to kill you, do you think your grandchildren will miss you?”*


*‘I was consumed by fear. It was sheer hell and all I can remember is praying.’
Her six-bedroomed house had been broken into  several weeks before the attack last Friday and Surrey Police believe the raiders had located the two safes at that point.


Read more: Waterboarded by a gang of robbers in her £7m home: Masked intruders torture grandmother, 73, for three hours to make her open a safe
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | **DailyMail on Facebook*


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A home invasion can be prevented by having decent doors and windows and/or an alarm fitted for a fraction of the price of a firearm and ammunition. But then again if Americans choose to live in houses with insecure doors and windows...
> What you call "home invasions" are so rare as to be discounted in the UK, we have perhaps one a year at most. Just like we have a mass shooting once every decade or so, unlike the USA which seems to have one a month at least.




This is how we prevent robbers in the U.S.....

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm#FN;F64

C. In Homes and on the Street​Rengert and Wasilchick's book about how burglars work reveals that fear of armed homeowners played a major role in determining burglary targets. Burglars reported that they avoided late-night burglaries because, "That's the way to get shot." [FN63] Some burglars said that they shun burglaries in neighborhoods with people of mostly a different race because, "You'll get shot if you're caught there." [FN64]
The most thorough study of burglary patterns was a St. Louis survey of 105 currently active burglars. [FN65] The authors observed, "One of the most serious risks faced by residential burglars is the possibility of being injured or killed by occupants of a target. Many of the offenders we spoke to reported that this was far and away their greatest fear." [FN66] Said one burglar: "I don't think about gettin' caught, I think about gettin' gunned down, shot or somethin'...'cause you get into some people's houses...quick as I come in there, boom, they hit you right there. That's what I think about."
Another burglar explained:


> Hey, wouldn't you blow somebody away if someone broke into your house and you don't know them? You hear this noise and they come breakin' in the window tryin' to get into your house, they gon' want to kill you anyway. See, with the police, they gon' say, "Come out with your hands up and don't do nothing foolish!" Okay, you still alive, but you goin' to jail. But you alive. You sneak into somebody's house and they wait til you get in the house and then they shoot you.. . .See what I'm sayin'? You can't explain nothin' to nobody; you layin' down in there dead! [FN67]


In contrast, Missouri is one of only nine states which has no provision for citizens to be issued permits to carry handguns for protection. Thus, a criminal in St. Louis faces a very high risk that the target of a home invasion may have a lawful gun for protection, but minimal risk that the target of a street robbery will have a lawful firearm for defense. The same authors who studied active St. Louis burglars conducted another study of active St. Louis armed robbers. [FN68] They found that "ome of the offenders who favored armed robbery over other crimes *355 maintained that the offense was also safer than burglary. . .." [FN69] As one armed robber put it: "My style is, like, _ don't have to be up in nobody's house in case they come in; they might have a pistol in the house or something." [FN70]
On the streets, many of the St. Louis robbers "routinely targeted law-abiding citizens," [FN71] who, unlike their counterparts in most American states, were certain not to be carrying a gun for protection. Law-abiding citizens were chosen as robbery victims because, as one robber noted, "You don't want to pick somebody dangerous; they might have a gun themselves." [FN72]
In addition to the St. Louis study, the Wright-Rossi National Institute of Justice surveyed felony prisoners in eleven state prison systems on the impact of victim firearms on burglar behavior. [FN73] In that survey, seventy-four percent of the convicts who had committed a burglary or violent crime agreed, "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot." [FN74]_


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A home invasion can be prevented by having decent doors and windows and/or an alarm fitted for a fraction of the price of a firearm and ammunition. But then again if Americans choose to live in houses with insecure doors and windows...
> What you call "home invasions" are so rare as to be discounted in the UK, we have perhaps one a year at most. Just like we have a mass shooting once every decade or so, unlike the USA which seems to have one a month at least.





Merry old England...


Burglary victims attacked in their own home once every 30 minutes


*A householder is attacked by a violent burglar every 30 minutes.*

*The shocking statistic exposes for the first time the epidemic of terrifying intruder confrontations taking place in Britain.*
*
It will intensify demands for householders to be given greater protection if they use force to protect themselves and their family against a burglar.

In the wake of the case of Munir Hussain, who was jailed and later freed for beating a raider, ministers insisted it was extremely rare for a person to find themselves in trouble with the police for fighting back against a burglar.
*
*But with householders suffering violence on 23,000 occasions last year, campaigners say the case for a change to the law is growing ever stronger.*
*
The Tories, who compiled the figures, have given a manifesto commitment to review the law, which currently allows a householder to respond with 'reasonable force'.

Under one option being considered, a burglary victim who took on an intruder could only be prosecuted if they used 'grossly disproportionate force'.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'These figures are an alarming indication of the culture of violence that has built up in our society.

'It just goes to show how important it is that we change the law to give proper protection to householders who defend themselves and their families against a violent intruder in their homes.

'The Government promised to change the law, but then didn't. We will.'

The figures emerged in an analysis of official crime statistics. Last year, the number of domestic burglaries recorded by police in England and Wales rose for the first time in six years, from 280,694 in 2007-08 to 284,427.

The British Crime Survey provides more information on the nature of burglaries than those recorded in police crime figures.

According to the BCS, householders came face-to-face with burglars in 20 per cent of domestic burglaries last year. That translates one every ten minutes. In other cases, either no one was at home or the victim was at home but unaware they were being burgled and did not see the offender.
*
*Of the burglaries in which the victim came face-to-face with the intruder, violence was either used or threatened in 59 per cent of crimes.*


----------



## Death Angel (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No, it can't.........those simply give you time to get to your gun.......
> 
> They are not rare in the U.K.....they happen more in the U.K. than the U.S.....our criminals know not to enter our homes when people are home....they can get shot...
> 
> ...


A civilized society would give these 2 the death penalty


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Stone  Mountain was an icon for the SECOND incarnation of the KKK.   Not the original version and not the current  one.
> 
> Why have people never learned that there have been three distinct versions of the KKK?   Each one more ineffectual than the last.



Why did the new ones abandon Stone Mountain?


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Why did the new ones abandon Stone Mountain?




They simply went mainstream in the democrat party and took in racists of all colors, black and brown racists.........racists of all colors working to gain control of the government to enact their individual racist policies...


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> And that makes sense how?



It's called PROBABILITIES.  




Concerned American said:


> You are one data point in a sea of vehicle owners.   Maybe we should ban vehicles because a few evil people have used them in mass murder.



-sigh-  Will you guys ever get over your comparison of guns with cars?  *AT LEAST I HAVE TO REGISTER MY CAR.*



Concerned American said:


> Your argument makes no logical sense.



It's called probabilities.  I'm so surprised that none of you guys know anything about it.  Well, actually, not really surprised.



Concerned American said:


> Again, it is a tool.  If they can't find one--which will never happen, they have shootings in countries where gun ownership is illegal too.



LOL.  There's no developed first would country with the levels of shootings and gun homicides of the USA.

We are miles above anyone else.

You guys just have NO CLUE.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> They simply went mainstream in the democrat party



Oh god.  What kind of upside down talkingpoint world do you live in?



2aguy said:


> and took in racists of all colors, black and brown racists.........racists of all colors working to gain control of the government to enact their individual racist policies...



You're lost.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Maybe you should look in the mirror, fascist.



See?  I was right.  You use words you have no idea about.

Subliterate.


----------



## Dayton3 (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Why did the new ones abandon Stone Mountain?



Not sure they ever really abandoned it. .   Stone Mountain just go "superceded" for lack of a better term.   But it marked a migration of the KKK out of the "old south" and more into the "new".


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> A person shouldn't have to live in a metal box in order to be safe from home invasion.  The places in the US where home invasions are prevalent are forced to virtually do exactly that.



What kind of hellhole do you live in?  

Seriously.  If you live in such a DANGEROUS part of America....*f'in MOVE!*

I have lived literally all over this country.  The Midwest (where I was born), the Northeast where I worked for years, the Deep South where I spent years in my first postdoc and industry jobs, SoCal and the PNW and honestly I've NEVER lived in the kind of terror you lot seem to exist in every single day.

You face rabid BLM protestors just going out to get a gallon of milk.  You have gang bangers busting down your doors.  You have MS-13 living in your cellar.

WHAT KIND OF HORROR SHOW DO YOU INHABIT?  

Or are you just really scared all the time no matter where you are at?


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> AT LEAST I HAVE TO REGISTER MY CAR.


Do you have to pass a background check to purchase one---or the gas to run it for that matter.  BTW, the fuel is flammable and explosive and can be used "in all probability," if guns were not available.  You see, your cockamamie "probability" defense doesn't hold water any better than a sieve.


----------



## miketx (May 30, 2022)

OhPleaseJustQuit said:


> What's an assault rifle?


Any gun with at least one bullet in it.


----------



## miketx (May 30, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.


If politicians had a spine they would use the 2a to protect children.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> SoCal


You are seriously misinformed or you live in a vacuum if you never heard of a home invasion robbery in SoCal.  Which begs the question, "did you read the conversation with Vagabond63 that I replied to?  Nope, you didn't.  Please keep up or STFU, moron.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You guys just have NO CLUE.


Again, look in the mirror.  You don't know what you are talking about.  You are pulling the fascist knee jerk response that has been spoon fed to you by your favorite vegetable in the white house and the MSM.  In other words, you're a moron that can't think for yourself.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Do you have to pass a background check to purchase one



I have to have extensive testing in order to get the right to drive one.




Concerned American said:


> ---or the gas to run it for that matter.



Do you have to pass a background check to buy ammo for a gun you already own?



Concerned American said:


> BTW, the fuel is flammable and explosive and can be used "in all probability," if guns were not available.  You see, your cockamamie "probability" defense doesn't hold water any better than a sieve.



You don't understand probabilities or statistics.  That's your problem.  Not mine.

Ignorance is NOT a solid defense of guns.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You face rabid BLM protestors just going out to get a gallon of milk. You have gang bangers busting down your doors. You have MS-13 living in your cellar.


You certainly make a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions.  The "probability" is that you're a moron who never researched a topic in your entire useless life.  I never told you I lived in these areas.  If you would climb out of your basement and observe the REAL world around you, you wouldn't make all of these ridiculous claims.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Again, look in the mirror.  You don't know what you are talking about.



I hope you don't take all your gun money and go to Vegas.  They'll clean you out.  

LEARN what probability means.




Concerned American said:


> You are pulling the fascist knee jerk response



Is that what you ALWAYS call mathematics?



Concerned American said:


> that has been spoon fed to you by your favorite vegetable in the white house and the MSM.  In other words, you're a moron that can't think for yourself.



LOL.  At least I understand probabilities.   You, however, will be a victim of people a LOT smarter than you are.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> You certainly make a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions.  The "probability" is that you're a moron who never researched a topic in your entire useless life.  I never told you I lived in these areas.  If you would climb out of your basement and observe the REAL world around you, you wouldn't make all of these ridiculous claims.



You guys live in abject terror of just waking up in the morning.  Hence you need guns all around all the time.

Non-stop abject terror.

Shadows move?  You jump.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> You are seriously misinformed or you live in a vacuum if you never heard of a home invasion robbery in SoCal.



Lived there for 10 years in a town literally OVERRUN with undocumented aliens.  Never had need of a gun.

Not once.

Was their crime?  SURE!  There's crime in the world.

Did I turn my life into an armed encampment of terror shaking at the mere idea of all those "others" around me?  Not so much.

You guys have turned America into a nation loaded with guns because all you do is live in abject terror of everyone and everything.

Why is that?


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I have to have extensive testing in order to get the right to drive one.


I have been driving for over 50 years and I would never call what the US requires to drive a vehicle as "extensive"  Reach up your ass a little higher for your next lie--so far they have been childs play to disprove.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> Do you have to pass a background check to buy ammo for a gun you already own?


Yep, in CA, you certainly do.  Research your subject before you run your ignorant mouth.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> You don't understand probabilities or statistics.


Laws are not legislated based on "probabilities" moron.  Do you advocate for "thought police" too.  By your statements in this thread, the probability is you should be isolated for your own good.


----------



## Circe (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Those "secure" doors and windows that are anything less than a metal box have proven ineffective in the areas of the US where home invasions are most prevalent.  Criminals belong behind bars--not their victims.


Ouch, good point, that is what is happening. We are considering making schools prisons to keep out the 18-year-old mass murderers. And we all have to have Ring doorbells and security systems and gated communities for our homes. 

Soon it will be walls around the towns: like in all the Middle Ages.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Non-stop abject terror.


Keep projecting, Einstein.  I am not the one whining for the government to restrict others rights because you are afwaid of that boogie man with the assault weapon.  It is very clear you are afraid of that boogie man and you want a fascist government to protect you.  Take your advice and f'ing move to that utopia that you think exists everywhere else.  I am quite secure and content where I am.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Did I turn my life into an armed encampment of terror shaking at the mere idea of all those "others" around me? Not so much.


What changed?  You certainly are terrified of those nasty inanimate guns now---to the extent that you feel your fear trumps my "inalienable" constitutional right to own one of those inanimate objects.  Run along, ignoramus, try some critical thinking sometime or troll another thread where people don't think.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> At least I understand probabilities.


Did you just learn that word?  You apparently don't know a fucking thing about law OR the constitution.  Maybe you should spend less time at the black jack table and more time researching your subject, moron.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> I have been driving for over 50 years and I would never call what the US requires to drive a vehicle as "extensive"  Reach up your ass a little higher for your next lie--so far they have been childs play to disprove.



Lie?  You think I'm lying that your car needs registration in the US and you have to take an exam to get your license?

Are you sure you are following ALL the laws?



Concerned American said:


> Yep, in CA, you certainly do.  Research your subject before you run your ignorant mouth.



Excellent!  I love it!  Good for Cali!



Concerned American said:


> Laws are not legislated based on "probabilities" moron.



Yes they are.  Go try to buy several boxes of Sudafed this afternoon.  You'll find that they limit you.  Do you know why?  *Because they are trying to decrease the probability that you are buying Sudafed to make Meth.*

That's a probability play.  It's not the only law drafted that way.

You are ex-military, right?  Ever hear of "NON-PROLIFERATION"?  Yeah, that's another "probability" based rule to attempt to limit the chances (probabilities) of fissile nuclear materials making it into the wrong hands.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Did you just learn that word?  You apparently don't know a fucking thing about law OR the constitution.



LOL.  You are so wrong it isn't even funny.  But you're also hilariously uneducated so I'll just let you play like you are so smart and I'm so dumb.  LOL.




Concerned American said:


> Maybe you should spend less time at the black jack table and more time researching your subject, moron.



Maybe you should learn more about  how the world works.

Much of your world is predicated on probabilities.  In fact almost every decision you make is based on that.  The fact that you have no clue is telling.

You will be victimized by people who are a lot more familiar with these topics than you are.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Keep projecting, Einstein.



I'M NOT THE ONE here buying a gun to defend myself because I'm terrified all the time.




Concerned American said:


> I am not the one whining for the government to restrict others rights because you are afwaid of that boogie man with the assault weapon.



Apparently YOU GUYS ARE TOO!

Guns banned at Trump's NRA speech.  How ironic?  Is it because you guys are a bunch of hypocrites?








						Guns are banned during Trump's upcoming speech at the NRA conference
					

The Secret Service is taking control of the hall during Trump's speech in Houston on Friday and is prohibiting attendees from having firearms and other weapons, according to the gun group.




					www.npr.org
				






Concerned American said:


> It is very clear you are afraid of that boogie man and you want a fascist government to protect you.



Your guy certainly wanted to be protected.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You think I'm lying that your car needs registration in the US and you have to take an exam to get your license?


Many states require "hunter safety exams" for all persons to get a hunting license as well.  Be that as it may, answer the question--do you have to pass a background check to buy fuel?  Try staying on topic and stop using your bullshit fascist arguments to justify the restrictions of the constitutional RIGHT to keep and bear arms because you are terrified of a boogie man.  Buck up and learn to defend yourself, moron.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Circe said:


> Ouch, good point, that is what is happening. We are considering making schools prisons to keep out the 18-year-old mass murderers. And we all have to have Ring doorbells and security systems and gated communities for our homes.
> 
> Soon it will be walls around the towns: like in all the Middle Ages.



I think it fascinating that some people who served our country in uniform, who risked their lives to protect our way of life are some of the same folks who think that "our way of life" _just includes occasional mass slaughters of children_.

I honestly have to wonder if that was their vision of America when they served.  Did they say "I'm going to do Uncle Sam's bidding and stop evil doers from harming my country!  My country that has off-the-charts levels of gun homicides and has a mass slaughter of children every few years.  THAT'S what I'm fighting for!"

At some point you have to wonder what "The American Way of Life" really entails?  Because right now it doesn't seem to be all that safe.  Or those brave ex-military guys wouldn't feel the constant need to have guns all around them to protect them AT HOME.

What's the problem here?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Many states require "hunter safety exams" for all persons to get a hunting license as well.  Be that as it may, answer the question--do you have to pass a background check to buy fuel?  Try staying on topic and stop using your bullshit fascist arguments to justify the restrictions of the constitutional RIGHT to keep and bear arms because you are terrified of a boogie man.  Buck up and learn to defend yourself, moron.



Scared of the "fascists"?  You might want to look up that word so you can accurately identify them.

Rather than the way you currently define the word which appears to be "anyone who makes widdle Concerned American feel maaad."

You should spend more time LEARNING useful information rather than polishing your guns.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> That is evident. ^^^  I am not terrified simply because I can and will defend myself from you moronic fascist fucks.



*HOW GROSSLY DISHONEST!  You misquoted me by selectively cutting out words!!!!!!!!*

Why am I not surprised you would turn out to be a FUCKING LYING SACK OF SHIT!

I've scraped dog shit off my shoes that has more of my respect than you do.

LYING SACK!

I guess that's what I'll have to do to YOU now.  Enjoy!


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> off-the-charts levels of gun homicides


More people die in auto accidents than by gun homicides.  Where is your faux concern?  I get it.  The concern stops when it is YOUR rights that someone is attacking for some irrelevant, illogical reason.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Scared of the "fascists"?


You're projecting again.  I told you, I'm not afraid of them.  I am capable of defending myself--You OTOH, are the one whining for government intervention to "protect you"  Coward.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You just cut up my post to make it sound like I said something I didn't.  So I'm returning the favor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who is clamoring for the government to come and protect you from those nasty guns and gun owners?  Hmmmmmmm?  Fuck off, moron.


----------



## hadit (May 30, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Define assault rifle. And no, "big, black and scary" doesn't cut it. I could halfway take you seriously if you included that no politician should be allowed to accept donations of any kind from any organization that advocates gun seizures.


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Your inherent dishonesty makes your posts meaningless now.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> You lying sack of shit.


Typical democrat--you can't substantiate any argument you pull out of your ample ass, so you resort to off topic bullshit.  Chew on this, moron.  Car Accidents Kill More People Than Guns Every Year


----------



## Concerned American (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> At least I'm not a liar like you.


Not me--I can substantiate what I say.  Car Accidents Kill More People Than Guns Every Year


----------



## hadit (May 30, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Kids are dying for a lot of reasons.  Like woke schools not working with local law enforcement to charge kids for threatening to shoot up a school, like the kid that shot up the Buffalo grocery.  Or friends, parents, teachers not coordinating on kids with signs of potential violence.
> 
> *A more REALISTIC gun law that WOULD get broad acceptance from Americans would be to raise the legal age for purchase to 21 for rifles with clips or magazines.* No NEED to ban what you call "assault weapons".  You couldn't even define what that is.
> 
> And the sad part is - when it's kids killing kids -- is that what I suggested is ONLY necessary because kids are stuck "in the MetaVerse" and dont grow up in real life anymore. Many haven't matured enough by 18 like it USED to be.


The problem with raising the age limit to purchase said firearms is this. Our military servicemen and women are trained to use far deadlier weapons at much younger ages. If they can be trusted with fully automatic weapons, why can we not trust them to buy rifles with clips and magazines? Think of it, a kid joins the army at 18, serves two years while using high powered, fully automatic weapons (possibly in a war zone where he shoots at humans), musters out at 20, then has to wait a year to purchase a simple bolt action .22 with a clip? I don't think so.


----------



## Markle (May 30, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Why do you demand that we NOT protect our children? 

Which of these two rifles should be banned because they are more dangerous than the other?


----------



## Markle (May 30, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 30, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Relative Ethics


Definitely, guns are used in over 10,000 murders and over 20,000 suicides each year in USA.  Between 1999 and 2016, *572,000 people in USA died by guns.*


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And are used 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, savage beatings, stabbings and yes, even mass public shootings…..


This statistic seems very much exaggerated.  It does not sound realistic.  I will study in depth.


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> It's called PROBABILITIES.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is no country without a police state that has our population number and our diversity...........

And our Great Society democrat program wiped out fatherhood in Black homes to the 75% rate of out of wedlock births, the leading cause of crime, violence and poverty.....

The European countries, after the destruction of World War 2 set their countries back by decades, are finally catching up....and they are increasing the damage by importing violent, 3rd world males who use violence, with guns, to enforce their drug business...


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Definitely, guns are used in over 10,000 murders and over 20,000 suicides each year in USA.  Between 1999 and 2016, *572,000 people in USA died by guns.*




You have to go back and add that together...because the 10,000 number is the only one that counts....since it is crime, not suicide.....

So.....when the majority of those 10,000 deaths are criminals murdered by other criminals, in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities, gun violence is not a problem for 95% of the American population........

Meanwhile, you left out the other side........where 1.1 million Americans stop the criminals released by the democrat party using their legal guns....

Then you leave out the 15 million disarmed Europeand murdered by their governments....

Which is bigger.....10,000 per year from 1999-2016.....17 years?   OR 15 million in 6 years from 1939-1945?

Can you tell which number is bigger?

Can you explain why criminals murdering each other in democrat party cities should bother the other 95% of Americans?


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> This statistic seems very much exaggerated.  It does not sound realistic.  I will study in depth.




Here......this research should help...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,*
*----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.*
*https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3887145*


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> There is no country without a police state that has our population number and our diversity...........



And that matters...why?  Oh I know!  It's a desperate attempt to ignore a discussion about GUNS.

NO ONE IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD HAS AS MANY GUNS IN THE HANDS OF REGULAR FOLKS AS WE DO.  



2aguy said:


> And our Great Society democrat program wiped out fatherhood in Black homes



Oh give it a rest.  I know you want to make this all about race and stuff, but it's about the guns.  Not the scary black people you live in terror of.



2aguy said:


> to the 75% rate of out of wedlock births, the leading cause of crime, violence and poverty.....



How often do YOU vote to improve social safety nets?  I bet "Not at all!"  Because you don't actually care about the poor black fatherless families.  They are another handy excuse to avoid talking about guns.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> This statistic seems very much exaggerated.  It does not sound realistic.  I will study in depth.



It's probably exaggerated.  

Harvard Medical school says:

"We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence.  We find that *the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid*." (SOURCE)


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes....you throw out the race card....that racist tactic is becoming less and less useful...



Sorry but YOU were the one who made it a race thing.  You guys ALWAYS do.

I note how you didn't try to defend your "faux" concern for black families, though.


----------



## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> It's probably exaggerated.
> 
> Harvard Medical school says:
> 
> "We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence.  We find that *the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid*." (SOURCE)




They lie.....

I gave you 18 studies........over decades.....

Their only evidence?   "We say so..."


----------



## Briss (May 30, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A home invasion can be prevented by having decent doors and windows and/or an alarm fitted for a fraction of the price of a firearm and ammunition. But then again if Americans choose to live in houses with insecure doors and windows...
> What you call "home invasions" are so rare as to be discounted in the UK, we have perhaps one a year at most. Just like we have a mass shooting once every decade or so, unlike the USA which seems to have one a month at least.


Right.  You're saying that if you can't afford doors, windows, alarms, and whatever else you believe will stop a determined home invader, then you'd better be good with your fists, or a club, or . . .

Exactly how rare do you believe home invasions are in the U.S. are?


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 30, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> It's probably exaggerated.
> 
> Harvard Medical school says:
> 
> "We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence.  We find that *the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid*." (SOURCE)


Thank you!  I have no formal data, but my intuition tells me that threatening a violent criminal who has nothing to lose is not a good idea.  Guns are used in hunting, murder, and suicide.


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here......this research should help...
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the sources, but other sources show gun self-defense is rare (Table, p.6).


----------



## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Thank you for all the sources, but other sources show gun self-defense is rare (Table, p.6).




The other 18 studies including one from the Centers for Disease Control and one from the Department of Justice show they are common.........


----------



## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Thank you!  I have no formal data, but my intuition tells me that threatening a violent criminal who has nothing to lose is not a good idea.  Guns are used in hunting, murder, and suicide.




A violent criminal has his life to lose......they are amazingly good at making that assessment.........especially when they can run from an armed victim and simply find another victim who isn't armed...


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Yet you support Planned Parenthood and abortion up to birth.
> Hypocrisy at it's worst.


The hypocrisy is in the people who pretend to love babies while they are in the womb, but don't give a diddly squat about them after they are born.
If we truly love our children, we need to do everything possible to prevent them from being slaughtered in their classrooms.
The 2 issues I mentioned in my OP would help tremendously.


----------



## LilOlLady (May 31, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> You know that won't fly. So why do you suggest it? It doesn't do anything except inflame already agitated emotions on the subject.


Evidently we have not got agitated enough. Kids are still being killed in schools, etc. Silence is not an option, it is complicity with the shooter and a crime in itself.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Reagan was a friend to all black people.  Even the "welfare queens" he made up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ronald Reagan made it very clear how he felt about Black people with his "welfare queen" and "big buck " comments. 
Also, he held a big campaign rally in the Mississippi town where the 3 civil rights workers (Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner) were murdered and buried under  concrete. 
I'm sure Reagan's base understood that dog whistle very clearly.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Not sure they ever really abandoned it. .   Stone Mountain just go "superceded" for lack of a better term.   But it marked a migration of the KKK out of the "old south" and more into the "new".


There are so many new organizations to replace the KKK.
1) The Proud Boys
2) The Oath Keepers
3) The Boogaloo Boys
4) Multiple militia groups
5) Neo-Nazis

These new groups don't wear hoods. They have no fear of being identified.


----------



## Alice in Chains (May 31, 2022)

I'm certainly not dismissing that gun violence as a serious issue in this country, but the panic to run and seize all guns is ridiculous.  Unless of course you also plan to take everyone's car, an alcohol, and put governors on gas pedals.


Car Accident Statistics – Highlights​
Over 40,000 fatal car accidents per year in the U.S.
Each day, more than 90 Americans die in car accidents.
On average, 2 million drivers experience a permanent injury every year.
Almost 8,000 people are killed in traffic accidents involving drivers aged 16-20.
*The most common causes of death on the road are drunk driving (40%), speeding (30%), and irresponsible driving (33%).*
Some 58% of fatal car accidents involve only one vehicle, and 38% are caused by a traffic collision.
When it comes to fatal car accidents by state, most occurred in Texas and California during 2018.
According to the statistics, most fatal injuries happen during weekends.
*Each year, more than 1,600 children younger than 15 die in traffic accidents.*









						20+ Alarming Car Accident Statistics | Carsurance
					

Car accident statistics show that we are facing an accident pandemic. What age groups get hurt the most, and should you avoid driving on weekends?




					carsurance.net


----------



## Dayton3 (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> There are so many new organizations to replace the KKK.
> 1) The Proud Boys
> 2) The Oath Keepers
> 3) The Boogaloo Boys
> ...



Those groups are all jokes and you well know it (as is the modern KKK).


----------



## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> The hypocrisy is in the people who pretend to love babies while they are in the womb, but don't give a diddly squat about them after they are born.
> If we truly love our children, we need to do everything possible to prevent them from being slaughtered in their classrooms.
> The 2 issues I mentioned in my OP would help tremendously.




Conservatives more to charity, in time and money that democrats do....and go to any church and you will see Americans with Asian children...children they adopted from over seas because the government makes it almost impossible to adopt American kids..


----------



## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> There are so many new organizations to replace the KKK.
> 1) The Proud Boys
> 2) The Oath Keepers
> 3) The Boogaloo Boys
> ...




Do you understand that outside of the nazi groups of the left......they are all racially inclusive, to the  point one of the last leaders of the Proud Boys was a black cuban, you dumb ass...


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level.


Why do you hate the 1st Amendment?


Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle.


How do you get around "shall not be infringed"?


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's what mass shooters usually use to kill people.


Soemone lied to you, and you let them.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Why do you hate the 1st Amendment?
> 
> How do you get around "shall not be infringed"?


1) When politicians accept donations from the NRA, that isn't a 1st Amendment right. That is bribery. 
2) "Shall not be infringed" was written at a much different time. We are living in a different world now, with totally different kinds of weapons. It is not infringing on anyone's right to ban assault rifles.


----------



## Dayton3 (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) When politicians accept donations from the NRA, that isn't a 1st Amendment right. That is bribery.
> 2) "Shall not be infringed" was written at a much different time. We are living in a different world now, with totally different kinds of weapons. It is not infringing on anyone's right to ban assault rifles.



Lobbying is not bribery.


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) When politicians accept donations from the NRA, that isn't a 1st Amendment right. That is bribery.


And when politicians accept donations from the UAW?   NEA?  NFT?   Also bribery?


Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) "Shall not be infringed" was written at a much different time. We are living in a different world now, with totally different kinds of weapons. It is not infringing on anyone's right to ban assault rifles.


First, this does not answer the question.  
Second, the USSC ruled the Second Amendment  extends, _prima facie_, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.   
This includes 'assault weapons'.

So, again:
How do you get around "shall not be infringed"?


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Lobbying is not bribery.


It is when you hate the people doing the lobbying.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

Alice in Chains said:


> I'm certainly not dismissing that gun violence as a serious issue in this country, but the panic to run and seize all guns is ridiculous.  Unless of course you also plan to take everyone's car, an alcohol, and put governors on gas pedals.
> 
> 
> Car Accident Statistics – Highlights​
> ...


And of course cars were invented to be deadly weapons, just like guns. That is their sole purpose, correct? As for the drunk driving statistics, nobody has figured out a way to stop people from driving drunk yet. Ditto for speeding and irresponsible driving.
We do have a way to slow down mass shootings, though. Refer to my OP.


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> And of course cars were invented to be deadly weapons, just like guns. That is their sole purpose, correct?


Please demonstrate the sole purpose for a firearm is to kill people.
Then, given the nature of the 2nd Amendment, tell us why this matters.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And when politicians accept donations from the UAW?   NEA?  NFT?   Also bribery?
> 
> First, this does not answer the question.
> Second, the USSC ruled the Second Amendment  extends, _prima facie_, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.
> ...


1) Donations from the organizations you cited don't lead to mass shootings. So, they are OK.
2) The way to get around "shall not be infringed" is make a law banning assault rifles. 
See how easy that is.


----------



## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> And of course cars were invented to be deadly weapons, just like guns. That is their sole purpose, correct? As for the drunk driving statistics, nobody has figured out a way to stop people from driving drunk yet. Ditto for speeding and irresponsible driving.
> We do have a way to slow down mass shootings, though. Refer to my OP.



Wrong…..breathalyzers in every single car and truck…


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) Donations from the organizations you cited don't lead to mass shootings. So, they are OK.


Ah - you admit the restriction you seek on lobbying is based on content.
Why do you think this does not violate the 1st amendment?


Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) The way to get around "shall not be infringed" is make a law banning assault rifles.


Why do you think a ban on bearable arms, protected by the constitution,  does not violate the constitution?


----------



## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> And of course cars were invented to be deadly weapons, just like guns. That is their sole purpose, correct? As for the drunk driving statistics, nobody has figured out a way to stop people from driving drunk yet. Ditto for speeding and irresponsible driving.
> We do have a way to slow down mass shootings, though. Refer to my OP.



Cars kill more people than guns every year, and a rental truck killed more people in a single attack than the total number of mass public shootings each year, except for two years………

Cars kill more people tha AR-15s every single year

According to you we need to ban cars…

Cars are far more dangerous…..they kill more people accidentally tha guns do intentionally

They must be banned


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Please demonstrate the sole purpose for a firearm is to kill people.
> Then, given the nature of the 2nd Amendment, tell us why this matters.


What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people? There is nothing I need to demonstrate. People have taken the 2nd Amendment and twisted it to mean what they want it to mean. 
I believe the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment was for people to form militias to protect themselves during colonial times, from the British, hostile Native Americans, etc. In those days they didn't really have a standing Army, so the citizens had to fend for themselves. 
So, they needed to be armed and able to form militias at all times. That was what the 2nd Amendment was created for.


----------



## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people? There is nothing I need to demonstrate. People have taken the 2nd Amendment and twisted it to mean what they want it to mean.
> I believe the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment was for people to form militias to protect themselves during colonial times, from the British, hostile Native Americans, etc. In those days they didn't really have a standing Army, so the citizens had to fend for themselves.
> So, they needed to be armed and able to form militias at all times. That was what the 2nd Amendment was created for.



Guns are used to save lives….1.1 million times a year according to the centers for Disease Control.


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people?


This does not prove your claim.   Try again.


Ms. Turquoise said:


> I believe the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment was for people to form militias to protect themselves....


... by killing people.
Given this, why does it matter if guns are designed to kill people?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Ah - you admit the restriction you seek on lobbying is based on content.
> Why do you think this does not violate the 1st amendment?
> 
> Why do you think a ban on bearable arms, protected by the constitution,  does not violate the constitution?


I heard that at one time, not so long ago,  there was a ban on assault rifles. But, somehow the ban was lifted. That was a big mistake.


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I heard that at one time, not so long ago,  there was a ban on assault rifles...


You avoided my questions.
Because you know you cannot answer them.
Your concession, accepted.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> This does not prove your claim.   Try again.
> 
> ... by killing people.
> Given this, why does it matter if guns are designed to kill people?


You are making me dizzy, M14 Shooter. You are talking in circles. I need to run a few errands. Hope to see you soon. Thanks for the conversation. Bye.


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> You are making me dizzy, M14 Shooter. You are talking in circles.


Translation:
You have no meaningful response.
Your concession, accepted.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You avoided my questions.
> Because you know you cannot answer them.
> Your concession, accepted.


No, I'm just tired to talking to you. I haven't had conversations with 5 year olds in a long time. My patience is not what it used to be. Have a nice day.


----------



## Dayton3 (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people?



Hunting.


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I haven't had conversations with 5 year olds in a long time.


And yet, you do not have the capacity to meaningfully answer my questions or soundly address my points.
What's what say about you?


----------



## TemplarKormac (May 31, 2022)

LilOlLady said:


> Evidently we have not got agitated enough. Kids are still being killed in schools, etc. Silence is not an option, it is complicity with the shooter and a crime in itself.


If words could save lives,  then they already would have.

20,000 gun laws and 19 dead children later, nothing has changed. Your 'agitation' only amounts to wasting more paper and bandwidth.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 31, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Definitely, guns are used in over 10,000 murders and over 20,000 suicides each year in USA.  Between 1999 and 2016, *572,000 people in USA died by guns.*



The majority of Murders are due to the drug trafficking.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 31, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I'M NOT THE ONE here buying a gun to defend myself because I'm terrified all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was the Secret Service who banned the Guns at the NRA convention while the rest of the convention allows firearms which was pointed out in the media.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 31, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Reagan was a friend to all black people.  Even the "welfare queens" he made up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great dishonest troll post.  HOW is "Stone Mountain MY thing?"  I went there once.  No white hoods in sight.  You know in Hillbilly Hollywood,  all the Civil War sites and plantations have ample numbers of BLACK docents capable of sniffing out the KKK from yards away. The same with Stone Mtn NOW. 



> I honestly don't know how you somehow made it sound like Georgia was not racist.



I said a 100 year history of it being managed and coddled by racist government.  And to be EXACT -- that would be DEMOCRAT GOVERNANCE.  ALL the way up to the 70s !!!!

 Is this a reading comprehension issue or just way trolls roll?


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> No, I'm just tired to talking to you. I haven't had conversations with 5 year olds in a long time. My patience is not what it used to be. Have a nice day.



I have gone through the thread to discover that your replies are emotional lacking in rational replies and dishonestly ignoring a lot of accepted official information.

I come away completely unmoved by your weak arguments.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> I have gone through the thread to discover that your replies are emotional lacking in rational replies and dishonestly ignoring a lot of accepted official information.
> 
> I come away completely unmoved by your weak arguments.


Oh no. If you are " completely unmoved by my weak arguments" what am I going to do? 
I live for your approval and attention. (sarcasm)


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Oh no. If you are " completely unmoved by my weak arguments" what am I going to do?
> I live for your approval and attention. (sarcasm)



You are just flailing now try pushing better arguments or concede.


----------



## BackAgain (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Oh no. If you are " completely unmoved by my weak arguments" what am I going to do?
> I live for your approval and attention. (sarcasm)


Unmoved as in unpersuaded as in your argument was unpersuasive.  You following along yet?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> You are just flailing now try pushing better arguments or concede.


My argument is just fine. Why should I concede? I stated my beliefs about the NRA donating money to crooked politicians and about banning assault rifles.
I'm good.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Unmoved as in unpersuaded as in your argument was unpersuasive.  You following along yet?


I could care less if he is "unmoved". I am not here to please him.


----------



## BackAgain (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I could care less if he is "unmoved". I am not here to please him.


Again. It means unpersuaded. Because you aren’t persuasive. And if you’re not here to try to persuade, then it’s not clear why you post at all.


----------



## Circe (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people?


Killing vermin, mostly. Migod, it's a zoo around here. 

For the second time, after 20 years, we've got raccoons that won't back off. They are coming right up to the back porch and standing up and staring me down when I open the door.

This is disconcerting. There is going to be trouble. Hopefully from us more than from them.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> My argument is just fine. Why should I concede? I stated my beliefs about the NRA donating money to crooked politicians and about banning assault rifles.
> I'm good.



It is irrelevant since it was the state and Federal government who screw up the Background check set up since they ignored repeated warnings of his many times expressed desire to shoot up a school.

Flopping Aces

The signs were there. They’re almost always there. No one was paying attention.​Posted by DrJohn on 27 May, 2022

Excerpt:

Tucson. Parkland. Buffalo. Uvalde.

Jared Loughner. Nikolas Cruz. Peyton Gendron. Salvador Ramos.

Their stories are all the same.

They committed terrible crimes exacting unimaginable pain and loss. All were preventable had someone taken their job seriously.

Jared Loughner, who shot Gabby Giffords, was well known to Tucson police. He made numerous death threats. The cops were called to his house numerous times. He purchased a Glock after he made several death threats. They let him keep the weapon.

Nikolas Cruz posted “Im going to be a professional school shooter” on YouTube.  The FBI was tipped off.

A person close to Cruz warned the FBI last month that he had a “desire to kill people” and could carry out a school shooting, the FBI admitted on Friday. The agency failed to act on the tip.



> The FBI was also warned about Cruz after he posted on YouTube saying he was going to become a “professional school shooter.” The agency said they couldn’t identify the user who made the threat, despite Cruz posting under his own name.



LINK for the rest


----------



## Circe (May 31, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Again. It means unpersuaded. Because you aren’t persuasive. And if you’re not here to try to persuade, then it’s not clear why you post at all.


No one is ever persuaded. It's one of the top rules of the Internet.

The reason to post is self-expression. If you think you are going to persuade someone of something, you must not have been at it very long.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

Circe said:


> Killing vermin, mostly. Migod, it's a zoo around here.
> 
> For the second time, after 20 years, we've got raccoons that won't back off. They are coming right up to the back porch and standing up and staring me down when I open the door.
> 
> This is disconcerting. There is going to be trouble. Hopefully from us more than from them.


I understand about the raccoons.


----------



## BackAgain (May 31, 2022)

Circe said:


> No one is ever persuaded. It's one of the top rules of the Internet.
> 
> The reason to post is self-expression. If you think you are going to persuade someone of something, you must not have been at it very long.


Kind of a superficial reply. Are you claiming that you’ve never been persuaded. Hell. I’m kind of stubborn. Yet even I have had reason to concede a valid point from another member’s rejoinder. (Not too often admittedly.) I don’t think I’m all that unique.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Again. It means unpersuaded. Because you aren’t persuasive. And if you’re not here to try to persuade, then it’s not clear why you post at all.


I post here to share my beliefs and thoughts on certain political issues.
Are you attempting to run me off? Am I not free to post here as other people do?


----------



## Circe (May 31, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> Jared Loughner. Nikolas Cruz. Peyton Gendron. Salvador Ramos.
> 
> Their stories are all the same.
> 
> ...


Naaaaaaaah, he's wrong: their stories are not at all the same. Peyton Gendron and Salvador Ramos were so young they didn't have a history that warned anyone actionably.

The Cruz thing before the Parkville shooting WAS problematic; but I have been most interested in Jared Loughner. He was so insane that really, when arrested, he couldn't even talk plain. He had been crashing for months and his family simply didn't know what it was or what to do. That they let him keep a gun after all those visits by police and death threats ---- well, darn. Something very wrong there. Needs work.

I'd like to see boys not able to buy guns until at least age 21. By then, the society and family will usually know if he's gone crazy with schizophrenia and maybe somebody would have the sense to intervene before he does a Batman Killer performance. Boys would build up some history, either as sane members of society ----- or murderous whack jobs. Maybe some of these sprees would be prevented. Maybe.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

Circe said:


> No one is ever persuaded. It's one of the top rules of the Internet.
> 
> The reason to post is self-expression. If you think you are going to persuade someone of something, you must not have been at it very long.


I would think very few people are truly "persuaded" by something they see on a political message board. I like to share my thoughts.
It breaks my heart every time I hear about a school shooting. I had to say something. :-(


----------



## BackAgain (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I post here to share my beliefs and thoughts on certain political issues.
> Are you attempting to run me off? Am I not free to post here as other people do?


Run you off? Lol. Oh hells no. I’m just suggesting that if your aim is to just speak to yourself, you don’t need to waste your time doing that here. Your choice. But if you’re actually not just bent on talking to yourself, then it seems more likely to believe that you’d want to persuade the person you’re replying to (and others).

I’m not seeking to run you off, silly. I’m just calling a little bullshit on you.


----------



## Ringtone (May 31, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Kind of a superficial reply. Are you claiming that you’ve never been persuaded. Hell. I’m kind of stubborn. Yet even I have had reason to concede a valid point from another member’s rejoinder. (Not too often admittedly.) I don’t think I’m all that unique.


Hey, *BackAgain*, I see that you're still yammering that I'm a vainglorious and tragically stupid tool who can't admit when he's wrong in your signature.

You forgot to mention the fact that your allegation stems from your mindless, pseudo-scientific notion that the laws of thermodynamics would necessarily obtain beyond the physical universe, that God, therefore, could not have created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it in the first place _because _. . . wait for it . . . the law of conservation would prohibit that.



You may have me on ignore, but everybody else will see the absurdity on which your allegation is predicated. I think I'll repost this under your posts from time to time.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Run you off? Lol. Oh hells no. I’m just suggesting that if your aim is to just speak to yourself, you don’t need to waste your time doing that here. Your choice. But if you’re actually not just bent on talking to yourself, then it seems more likely to believe that you’d want to persuade the person you’re replying to (and others).
> 
> I’m not seeking to run you off, silly. I’m just calling a little bullshit on you.


I'll waste my time the way I want to waste it, OK?
Thank you for your concern.


----------



## BackAgain (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I'll waste my time the way I want to waste it, OK?
> Thank you for your concern.


I’m happy for you. But if you know you’re wasting you’re time, dumpling, just keep in mind, there are alternatives. For example, you could at least TRY to make sense. 👍

You’re very welcome.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> I’m happy for you. But if you know you’re wasting you’re time, dumpling, just keep in mind, there are alternatives. For example, you could at least TRY to make sense. 👍
> 
> You’re very welcome.


And you could at least post to someone who cares about your opinion. _I don't care about your opinion of me. You would do well to stick to the topic of the thread and not worry about whether I "make sense" or not._
Have a nice day. Dumpling.


----------



## BackAgain (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> And you could at least post to someone who cares about your opinion. _I don't care about your opinion of me. You would do well to stick to the topic of the thread and not worry about whether I "make sense" or not._
> Have a nice day.


Why would anyone care about *your* opinions? You stupid pig dog?  Even you don’t care enough to try to be persuasive. You fuckwit. 

You seem not to be discussing the thread topic for some reason. Rattled you worthless twit?

Here, I’m a concerned conservative. So I’ll help you out. The thread topic was how to prevent mass shootings. The two sub-imbecile suggestions in the OP are *obviously* worthless. So, here’s a thought. Why not try to make sense?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (May 31, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Why would anyone care about *your* opinions? You stupid pig dog?  Even you don’t care enough to try to be persuasive. You fuckwit.
> 
> You seem not to be discussing the thread topic for some reason. Rattled you worthless twit?
> 
> Here, I’m a concerned conservative. So I’ll help you out. The thread topic was how to prevent mass shootings. The two sub-imbecile suggestions in the OP are *obviously* worthless. So, here’s a thought. Why not try to make sense?


*When a poster resorts to profanity and childish insults, that means they have LOST the debate. 
I'll put you on IGNORE now. I don't have time for stupidity.*


----------



## BackAgain (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> *When a poster resorts to profanity and childish insults, that means they have LOST the debate.
> I'll put you on IGNORE now. I don't have time for stupidity.*


I couldn’t possibly care less.  For, with or without spicy language, you lose _all_ your “arguments” because you lack any skills in logic and have no appreciation for facts or truth. Now, gfy.  

Lol.


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 31, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> The majority of Murders are due to the drug trafficking.


Both drugs and guns must be banned.

People who can not support themselves must be helped by Society.


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 31, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The other 18 studies including one from the Centers for Disease Control and one from the Department of Justice show they are common.........


Table, p.6  says that gun self-defense is rare.

Perhaps there are studies claiming otherwise, but they seem to contradict Common Sense.


----------



## Man of Ethics (May 31, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people? There is nothing I need to demonstrate. People have taken the 2nd Amendment and twisted it to mean what they want it to mean.


Sad but true.


----------



## Sunsettommy (May 31, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Both drugs and guns must be banned.
> 
> People who can not support themselves must be helped by Society.



Ha ha ha, Narcotic drugs are already illegal and constantly subject to seizure but they have long failed to stop it from flowing into America.

You never read the 2nd amendment?


----------



## Man of Ethics (Jun 1, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> You never read the 2nd amendment?


I know the Second Amendment -- I believe it is outdated and needs to be repealed.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 1, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Table, p.6  says that gun self-defense is rare.
> 
> Perhaps there are studies claiming otherwise, but they seem to contradict Common Sense.




This research, including a study from the Centers for Disease Control, and then  again in 2013, the CDC studied all gun research, and including a study from the Department of Justice......both during the Clinton, the rapists, administration looking to refute Gary Kleck's work...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 1, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> I know the Second Amendment -- I believe it is outdated and needs to be repealed.




And the Germans believed the same thing about their guns in the 1920s....by 1939 they were in the process of murdering 15 million people...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 1, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Sad but true.




Yes....suicide is a mental health issue....

Meanwhile, left off that pie chart is the 1.1 million times a year Americans use their guns to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings, and mass public shootings......civilians also use their legal guns to save the lives of police officers....


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 1, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> My argument is just fine.


Your arguments have been demontrated unsound.
Disagree?
Go back and meaninignfully address the posts you ran away from.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 1, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> I know the Second Amendment -- I believe it is outdated and needs to be repealed.


Well, get to it.
Don't just sit there and whine about it -- get off your butt and do it.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Jun 1, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Well, get to it.
> Don't just sit there and whine about it -- get off your butt and do it.


*I am not a person of influence. * I can just feel sad for 572,000 people killed with guns in 1999-2016.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Jun 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes....suicide is a mental health issue....


I also support *helping all people in need*.  All people who have mental problems must be helped by Society.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This research, including a study from the Centers for Disease Control, and then  again in 2013, the CDC studied all gun research, and including a study from the Department of Justice......both during the Clinton, the rapists, administration looking to refute Gary Kleck's work...
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> ...


...and he's off to the races again, regurgitating these BS opinion poll estimates, when in reality, no-one knows how many times these events occur, and for that matter how many of these alleged events the "defender" was actually acting illegally.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Merry old England...


Oh good grief, you're quoting the "Daily Fail"! A source even Wikipedia won't allow as it's considered unreliable and prone to fake news. Even then the article is waay out of date and sensationalist. next?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No, it can't.........those simply give you time to get to your gun.......
> 
> They are not rare in the U.K.....they happen more in the U.K. than the U.S.....our criminals know not to enter our homes when people are home....they can get shot...
> 
> ...


One incident in 2004 and one in 2016... Oooh be afraid, be very afraid...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> One incident in 2004 and one in 2016... Oooh be afraid, be very afraid...




You have to lie.......burglaries in Britain are dangerous and getting worse.......those are just the ones that made the news...........and your magic doors and windows didn't stop them....


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 2, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> *I am not a person of influence. * I can just feel sad for 572,000 people killed with guns in 1999-2016.


Most of those are suicides and suicide is a choice that every person has the absolute right to make


----------



## Hollie (Jun 2, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> I know the Second Amendment -- I believe it is outdated and needs to be repealed.


It seems a large percentage of the Democrat fascists want to repeal the 2nd Amendment. Yeah, the party of slavery and Marxist socialism wants to disarm the population while keeping firearms available to themselves, of course.

Gee whiz. The 20th century has given us Stalin, Mao, Hitler etc., all of whom seem to be role models for democrats,

My relative sense of ethics tells me that allowing fascists to control my life is just a really bad idea.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 2, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> *I am not a person of influence.*


Translation:  You just want to complain.
That makes you as irrelevant as those complaints.


----------



## maybelooking (Jun 2, 2022)

If educated thought were required to discuss this topic we could save everyone a lot of time and energy.

So many fucking clueless idiots chime in on something they have no knowledge of.


----------



## Ralph Norton (Jun 2, 2022)

maybelooking said:


> If educated thought were required to discuss this topic we could save everyone a lot of time and energy.
> 
> So many fucking clueless idiots chime in on something they have no knowledge of.


You're just noticing that now?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You have to lie....


No, I leave the lies and disinformation to you, you are the expert here.


2aguy said:


> burglaries in Britain are dangerous and getting worse....


ROFL! From a high in 2002, when there were 890,099 recorded burglaries, the number has declined to 421,891 in 2019. I won't count the pandemic years as many people stayed at home, (including burglars it seems) but for reference there were 267,931. So you are talking BS as usual.


2aguy said:


> and your magic doors and windows didn't stop them....


Composite doors first entered the UK market in 1996 and as more houses were built with them and secure double glazed windows, the number of burglaries declined dramatically. Regarding your two instances, both lived in old houses, and probably relied on alarms, which the "professional" thieves probably disabled. I speculate, here, as I can't be bothered to read the Daily Fail, it too is full of BS.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No, I leave the lies and disinformation to you, you are the expert here.
> 
> ROFL! From a high in 2002, when there were 890,099 recorded burglaries, the number has declined to 421,891 in 2019. I won't count the pandemic years as many people stayed at home, (including burglars it seems) but for reference there were 267,931. So you are talking BS as usual.
> 
> Composite doors first entered the UK market in 1996 and as more houses were built with them and secure double glazed windows, the number of burglaries declined dramatically. Regarding your two instances, both lived in old houses, and probably relied on alarms, which the "professional" thieves probably disabled. I speculate, here, as I can't be bothered to read the Daily Fail, it too is full of BS.




And they failed the two examples.......the people who were tortured in their own homes...

You really do believe in unicorns, pixie dust and magic doors....


----------



## Man of Ethics (Jun 2, 2022)

Hollie said:


> It seems a large percentage of the Democrat fascists want to repeal the 2nd Amendment. Yeah, the party of slavery and Marxist socialism wants to disarm the population while keeping firearms available to themselves, of course.


I disagree with Democrats on some issues.
I disagree with Republicans on some issues.

Democrats are right about guns and Welfare.  I also have a Disability.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Jun 2, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Most of those are suicides and suicide is a choice that every person has the absolute right to make


Suicide is a crime, which may carry longer punishment then murder.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And they failed the two examples.......the people who were tortured in their own homes...


Oh, you have evidence they had composite doors and secure windows fitted to their homes then? Link please.

Interesting comparison of your mentality,

"but, but, there have only been 6 mass shootings in America this year... that's no reason to have gun control!!" 

"Two horrific instances of aggrevated burglary in a decade... quick, everyone needs guns for self defence!"


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And the Germans believed the same thing about their guns in the 1920s....by 1939 they were in the process of murdering 15 million people...


Utter drivel.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, you have evidence they had composite doors and secure windows fitted to their homes then? Link please.
> 
> Interesting comparison of your mentality,
> 
> ...



Compared to 15 million murdered in 6 years by the governments that confiscated guns?   What about that horror that happened over 6 years fails to inform your opinion on gun control and trusting governments?

And why is it that 6 criminals out of 330 million doesn’t show to you that your irrational opinions are stupid?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Utter drivel.



It’s actual history..it happened…..in that time frame….and because it shows your gun control agenda is dumb….because of actual human history and actual human nature, you dismiss it…..

You are willing to give up your Rights now without understanding the long term consequences


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, you have evidence they had composite doors and secure windows fitted to their homes then? Link please.
> 
> Interesting comparison of your mentality,
> 
> ...



No…two that made the story..they are not rare in Britain…..


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, you have evidence they had composite doors and secure windows fitted to their homes then? Link please.
> 
> Interesting comparison of your mentality,
> 
> ...


The one story stated that 59% of burglaries turn violent……that isn’t two stories…


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, you have evidence they had composite doors and secure windows fitted to their homes then? Link please.
> 
> Interesting comparison of your mentality,
> 
> ...




Moron...

Burglary victims attacked in their own home once every 30 minutes
A householder is attacked by a violent burglar every 30 minutes.

*The shocking statistic exposes for the first time the epidemic of terrifying intruder confrontations taking place in Britain.*
*
It will intensify demands for householders to be given greater protection if they use force to protect themselves and their family against a burglar.

In the wake of the case of Munir Hussain, who was jailed and later freed for beating a raider, ministers insisted it was extremely rare for a person to find themselves in trouble with the police for fighting back against a burglar.

But with householders suffering violence on 23,000 occasions last year, campaigners say the case for a change to the law is growing ever stronger.

The Tories, who compiled the figures, have given a manifesto commitment to review the law, which currently allows a householder to respond with 'reasonable force'.

Under one option being considered, a burglary victim who took on an intruder could only be prosecuted if they used 'grossly disproportionate force'.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'These figures are an alarming indication of the culture of violence that has built up in our society.

'It just goes to show how important it is that we change the law to give proper protection to householders who defend themselves and their families against a violent intruder in their homes.

'The Government promised to change the law, but then didn't. We will.'

The figures emerged in an analysis of official crime statistics. Last year, the number of domestic burglaries recorded by police in England and Wales rose for the first time in six years, from 280,694 in 2007-08 to 284,427.

The British Crime Survey provides more information on the nature of burglaries than those recorded in police crime figures.

According to the BCS, householders came face-to-face with burglars in 20 per cent of domestic burglaries last year. That translates one every ten minutes. In other cases, either no one was at home or the victim was at home but unaware they were being burgled and did not see the offender.
*
*Of the burglaries in which the victim came face-to-face with the intruder, violence was either used or threatened in 59 per cent of crimes.*


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 3, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Suicide is a crime, which may carry longer punishment then murder.


No it isn't.









						Suicide
					






					www.law.cornell.edu
				




*Suicide is no longer considered a crime in the United States*


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The one story stated that 59% of burglaries turn violent……that isn’t two stories…


No surprise there, if I caught a burglar in my home, I'd turn violent! Turning violent doesn't necesarily mean the burglars turn violent, the householder can turn violent too you know.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No surprise there, if I caught a burglar in my home, I'd turn violent! Turning violent doesn't necesarily mean the burglars turn violent, the householder can turn violent too you know.




Yeah...no....but good try.......


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No…two that made the story..they are not rare in Britain…..


Yes that type of attack is.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes that type of attack is.




The 59% number....which is more than half......shows that violence in burglaries is not rare.......basic math......59% is more than 50%.....which means it is more than half.......


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron...
> 
> Burglary victims attacked in their own home once every 30 minutes
> A householder is attacked by a violent burglar every 30 minutes.
> ...


Quoting the daily fail again, oh please! The violence can be threatened on both sides.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Quoting the daily fail again, oh please! The violence can be threatened on both sides.




Nope....when you enter someone's home illegally, you are the only one responsible for any and all violence that occurs...

But the fact is...the violence is by the burglars, which they initiate to intimidate and control the victims....

but thanks for showing us how you are willing to soft pedal the actions of violent criminals by blaming the victims...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> shows that violence in burglaries is not rare.


Oh good grief! Assuming the Daily fail is actualy quoting accurate data for a change, and not just making things up to sensationalise the story, that's still 59% of cases where the householder is present. Most burglaries in the UK happen when the house is empty.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope....when you enter someone's home illegally, you are the only one responsible for any and all violence that occurs...
> 
> But the fact is...the violence is by the burglars, which they initiate to intimidate and control the victims....
> 
> but thanks for showing us how you are willing to soft pedal the actions of violent criminals by blaming the victims...


Utter drivel from you, as usual.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope....when you enter someone's home illegally, you are the only one responsible for any and all violence that occurs...
> 
> But the fact is...the violence is by the burglars, which they initiate to intimidate and control the victims....
> 
> but thanks for showing us how you are willing to soft pedal the actions of violent criminals by blaming the victims...


Here's just one example, from a right wing newspaper. Piers Morgan hails 'hero' homeowner who fought off four armed raiders to protect wife upstairs as he says 'he would have taken on 100'


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh good grief! Assuming the Daily fail is actualy quoting accurate data for a change, and not just making things up to sensationalise the story, that's still 59% of cases where the householder is present. Most burglaries in the UK happen when the house is empty.




More burglaries in the U.K. happen when the victims are at home than they do in the U.S....

An Englishman's home is his dungeon

But the trouble is that this kind of burglary - the kind most likely to go "wrong" - is now the norm in Britain. In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. 


*Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present.*

But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.

*These days, even as he or she is being clobbered, the more thoughtful British subject is usually keeping an eye (the one that hasn't been poked out) on potential liability. Four years ago, Shirley Best, proprietor of the Rolander Fashion emporium, whose clients include Zara Phillips, was ironing some clothes when the proverbial two youths showed up. They pressed the hot iron into her flesh, burning her badly, and then stole her watch. "I was frightened to defend myself," said Miss Best. "I thought if I did anything I would be arrested." There speaks the modern British crime victim.*


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Here's just one example, from a right wing newspaper. Piers Morgan hails 'hero' homeowner who fought off four armed raiders to protect wife upstairs as he says 'he would have taken on 100'




Yeah.....that is "one example."   

But you just said this doesn't happen........

In the U.S.....

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm#FN;F64

C. In Homes and on the Street​Rengert and Wasilchick's book about how burglars work reveals that fear of armed homeowners played a major role in determining burglary targets. Burglars reported that they avoided late-night burglaries because, "That's the way to get shot." [FN63] Some burglars said that they shun burglaries in neighborhoods with people of mostly a different race because, "You'll get shot if you're caught there." [FN64]
The most thorough study of burglary patterns was a St. Louis survey of 105 currently active burglars. [FN65] The authors observed, "One of the most serious risks faced by residential burglars is the possibility of being injured or killed by occupants of a target. Many of the offenders we spoke to reported that this was far and away their greatest fear." [FN66] 

*Said one burglar: "I don't think about gettin' caught, I think about gettin' gunned down, shot or somethin'...'cause you get into some people's houses...quick as I come in there, boom, they hit you right there. That's what I think about."*


Another burglar explained:


> Hey, wouldn't you blow somebody away if someone broke into your house and you don't know them? You hear this noise and they come breakin' in the window tryin' to get into your house, they gon' want to kill you anyway. See, with the police, they gon' say, "Come out with your hands up and don't do nothing foolish!" Okay, you still alive, but you goin' to jail. But you alive. You sneak into somebody's house and they wait til you get in the house and then they shoot you.. . .See what I'm sayin'? You can't explain nothin' to nobody; you layin' down in there dead! [FN67]


In contrast, Missouri is one of only nine states which has no provision for citizens to be issued permits to carry handguns for protection. Thus, a criminal in St. Louis faces a very high risk that the target of a home invasion may have a lawful gun for protection, but minimal risk that the target of a street robbery will have a lawful firearm for defense. The same authors who studied active St. Louis burglars conducted another study of active St. Louis armed robbers. [FN68] They found that "ome of the offenders who favored armed robbery over other crimes *355 maintained that the offense was also safer than burglary. . .." [FN69] As one armed robber put it: "My style is, like, _ don't have to be up in nobody's house in case they come in; they might have a pistol in the house or something." [FN70]
On the streets, many of the St. Louis robbers "routinely targeted law-abiding citizens," [FN71] who, unlike their counterparts in most American states, were certain not to be carrying a gun for protection. Law-abiding citizens were chosen as robbery victims because, as one robber noted, "You don't want to pick somebody dangerous; they might have a gun themselves." [FN72]
In addition to the St. Louis study, the Wright-Rossi National Institute of Justice surveyed felony prisoners in eleven state prison systems on the impact of victim firearms on burglar behavior. [FN73] In that survey, seventy-four percent of the convicts who had committed a burglary or violent crime agreed, "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot." [FN74]_


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Here's just one example, from a right wing newspaper. Piers Morgan hails 'hero' homeowner who fought off four armed raiders to protect wife upstairs as he says 'he would have taken on 100'




And this...

*Burglary rates were: United States 695.9; England and Wales, 946.1; *


*Northern Ireland, 658.7; and Scotland, 479.1. So the overall UK burglary rate is significantly worse (considering that England and Wales contain 89 percent of the UK population, and the burglary rate is more than one‐third higher than in the United States). More important, the manner in which burglaries take place in the UK is much worse.
*
*In the United States, only a fairly small percentage of home burglaries take place when the occupants are home, but in Great Britain, about 59 percent do.94 In surveys, American burglars say that they avoid occupied homes because of the risk of getting shot.95*



*English burglars prefer occupied homes because there will be wallets and purses with cash, which do not have to be fenced at a discount. *


*British criminals have little risk of confronting a victim who possesses a firearm. Even the small percentage of British homeowners who have a legal gun would not be able to unlock the firearm from one safe, and then unlock the ammunition from another safe (as required by law), in time to use the gun against a criminal intruder.96 It should hardly be surprising, then, that Britain has a much higher rate of home‐invasion burglaries than does the United States.*



			https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/costs-consequences-gun-control#


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> More burglaries in the U.K. happen when the victims are at home than they do in the U.S....
> 
> An Englishman's home is his dungeon
> 
> ...


A story from 2004 from another dubious source.. OMG we must be all pissing ourselve in terror by now... Quick get out the shotguns Dierdre! ROFL!


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A story from 2004 from another dubious source.. OMG we must be all pissing ourselve in terror by now... Quick get out the shotguns Dierdre! ROFL!




Yeah.....you have to deflect from the 59% of burglaries that turn violent in Britain ........


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah.....you have to deflect from the 59% of burglaries that turn violent in Britain ........


No I don't, because you are just spouting your usual BS. Of the alleged 59% of burglaries that turn violent, what percentage are initiated by the burglar, and what percentage by the homeowner?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 4, 2022)

OnePercenter said:


> Use a gun in the commission of any crime: Federal, life without parole.
> Use a gun in the commission of any crime that causes injury or death of another person: Federal death penalty.



There goes the Dem base.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No I don't, because you are just spouting your usual BS. Of the alleged 59% of burglaries that turn violent, what percentage are initiated by the burglar, and what percentage by the homeowner?



Why would anyone get violent when someone comes in and steals their stuff? Ridiculous!!!

What's your address?


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 4, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level.


Unconstitutional.

Progressives really do hate our freedom just as much as the 9/11 hijackers hated our freedom.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.


It never fails that anytime someone supports fascism or opposes civil liberties, they invoke some variation of "common sense".




Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.


Unconstitutional.  Not only do people have the right to have them, but existing restrictions have proven sufficient to prevent any assault rifle legally owned by civilians from ever being used to commit a crime.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


If progressives want to engage in virtue signaling to show the world how much they CARE, I suggest that they all burn down their own home.  (Note: no insurance fraud.  Come clean with the authorities that you are voluntarily burning down your own home.)

Just think of how everyone will realize how much progressives CARE when they see that you are all willing to burn down your own home just to make a statement.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's what mass shooters usually use to kill people.


That is incorrect.  Assault rifles are almost never used in mass shootings.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> That is a sorry excuse to have one of those guns. Who are they expecting an invasion from?


Americans don't need an excuse.  We do what we want and we don't justify ourselves to anyone.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> As for rioting, are they planning to take their guns out a la Kyle Rittenhouse, to "defend" themselves, when all they need to do is stay home?


Mr. Rittenhouse is a hero.  And sometimes rioters attack someone's home or place of business.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> An AR-15 wouldn't be necessary to protect your home/life.
> A regular shotgun would suffice.


You don't get to choose what other people use to defend their homes.

And shotguns are no good against body armor.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> The definition has been posted several times in this thread.
> Either accept the definition you see hear. Or Google it.


If you have no idea what something is, then you have no business calling for it to be outlawed.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> The NRA likes to see more guns in society. Guess what most people use to kill other people? GUNS. Not hammers.


So what?  Are people who are killed with guns somehow "more dead" than people who are killed with hammers?




Ms. Turquoise said:


> It has a lot to do with the NRA.


That is incorrect.  The NRA has nothing to do with the massacres in this country.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> They buy up our politicians and control their votes.


Not really.  What the NRA does is vote politicians out of office if they cross the NRA.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> No matter how many mentally ill folks we have in society, if they didn't have easy access to guns, they couldn't committ mass shootings.


Most mentally ill people are harmless and still have the right to have guns.

People who are a danger to themselves or others are already prohibited from having guns.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question for the gun enthusiasts: If that had been one of your children or grandchildren killed at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would you still feel the same way? Would you want to keep the gun laws the same? Would you still want our politicians to be puppets of the NRA?
> Be truthful, please.


If I were the victim of a tragedy, I would never use my victimhood as a weapon to try to violate people's civil liberties for no reason.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Vrenn said:


> I don't agree with what you are saying.  Well, not all the way, that is.  What we need to do is to return the NRA back into the Non Profit it used to be.  It did a lot of good and didn't make many donations to Politicoes.  They were too busy teaching gun safety, hunting and fishing and all that.  Then it was outright purchased by the Firearms Manufacturers and here we are today.  It's now two parts and only one is what is left of the old Non Profit.


The NRA has not been purchased by the gun manufacturers.

They do a lot of good today as well.  And their political advocacy for our civil liberties is a big part of that.

The last thing we need is to have the NRA stop enforcing the Constitution and protecting our civil liberties.




Vrenn said:


> I don't think we need to outlaw "Assault Rifles" like the AR and the like.


Semi-auto-only AR-15s are not assault rifles.




Vrenn said:


> What we can do is treat them like we did the M1921 Thompson in 1934.  People that are registered or EFA Licensees are NOT the problem.  Anymore than the people with the CCW Licenses are with the handguns.  Make the AR and the like have to be registered, stored properly and handled properly under the 1934 National Firearms Act.  200 bucks to register yourself and another 200 bucks to register the AR really isn't out of the question.


What would be the justification for placing semi-auto-only AR-15s under the NFA?

Their pistol grips and flash suppressors certainly would not justify such a thing.

Keep in mind that unjustifiable gun laws are unconstitutional violations of our civil liberties.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.


Well, they are.  Our freedom is always more important.

But note that there is no conflict between the Second Amendment and anyone's life.


----------



## Hellbilly (Jun 5, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Well, they are. Our freedom is always more important.


Do you have kids?


----------



## boedicca (Jun 5, 2022)




----------



## Hellbilly (Jun 5, 2022)

boedicca said:


> View attachment 654357


Time for some new talking points, dude.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> And do you think that modern day Norway, UK, Sweden, Japan are all vicious dictator states?


The UK and Japan are certainly without freedom.  I do not know about Sweden and Norway.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> They don't have this level of mass shootings so OBVIOUSLY they must be.
> I feel sorry for them not having dead kids all the time to help then understand what TRUE FREEDOM looks like.


Freedom has nothing to do with the number of massacres in a country.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I understand that essentially the AR-15 isn't much more than less intimidating looking semi-automatics on the market including some hunting rifles.  It's just tricked out to look more "cool" and "military" but not functionally different.
> As such I kind of see the point that banning "assault rifles" isn't necessarily going to move the needle since similar firepower can be purchased in less exciting "packaging".
> But that means the REAL answer might be a lot less pleasant to consider.
> If I were in the NRA I'd DEFINITELY push for an "assault weapons ban" if only so it would distract from the larger problem and not really impact the ability of gun loving Americans from getting a good armory set up.


There are a number of problems with that strategy.

The first is, it is completely unacceptable for any gun to be outlawed for no reason, and that includes the AR-15.

Second, if we did allow it to be outlawed, progressives would just move on to demanding their next ban.  So long as we hold the line on the AR-15, progressives never move on to demanding the next ban.

Third, many pushes for stronger background checks have been defeated expressly because progressives undermine them by demanding that their attempts to outlaw the AR-15 take precedence over background checks.  So long as we keep fighting for the AR-15, progressives will keep using the issue to undermine their own position.

Fourth, as long as the gun control fight is all about the AR-15, it is an easy win for the NRA.  Since there is actually no reason to outlaw them, the NRA finds it easy to convince congressmen to oppose such a ban.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Kind of like how they treat "mental illness".  Talk about it so people won't pay attention to the larger issue.  Only problem with the "mental healthcare gambit" is that it might mean they would have to pay something extra for their guns to support actual mental healthcare improvement.
> But you get the point.


How is mental illness not the larger issue?




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Where do black market guns come from?  Do they just appear out of thin air?
> Or are they stolen from the stashes of good, honest law-abiding gun owners?
> This is why I think part of the problem IS the number of guns.  Increasing gun ownership rates means, statistically, that you are increasing the PROBABILITY of those guns winding up in the wrong hands.  Flood the market with more guns than people and you increase the chances of guns being stolen or diverted to "evil purposes".
> Life is in no small way a probability game.  We rely on probabilities all over the place.  You currently can't purchase more than a couple boxes of Sudafed because they want to limit the PROBABILITY of Sudafed being diverted to meth production.
> ...


Because people use different guns for different purposes, and there are many different guns for many different purposes.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Yeah, that makes sense.  The police who are TRAINED FOR SHOOTING SITUATIONS stayed safe, so I'm sure an armed 3rd grade teacher or a janitor would be MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE.


Indeed they would be.  The answer is for teachers to keep a rifle in a gun safe in their classrooms.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> And every time we see a pile of dead kids we KNOW that the NRA will be the FIRST to tell us that this is completely unrelated to guns and if any legislator so much as even THINKS about backing gun legislation they will pull that money from them.


No.

If they even think about backing gun legislation, they will be voted out of office forever.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> The NRA is doing their job right.  It's just sad that one side-effect is a bunch of dead kids, but hey, if you wanna make an omelet you have to obliterate an egg to the point that it can no longer be visually identified.


That is incorrect.  Massacres are not a side effect of our gun rights.

Not that it matters.  We'd be keeping our freedom even if massacres actually were a side effect.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> That's ANOTHER thing I hate seeing on the news.  All those mass killings in schools by hammer wielding nutjobs.  I really think we have TOO MANY HAMMERS.  And to think that hammers are made SPECIFICALLY TO HARM OR KILL...it's just irresponsible to sell them in the stores.


What does it matter if a weapon is designed to kill?

If someone is killed with a weapon that is designed to kill, does that make the victim "more dead" than people who are killed with a weapon that isn't designed to kill?

And what about guns that are not designed to kill?  Self defense guns are designed to protect.  Target shooting guns are not designed to be fired at living targets.  No living creature was shot during the biathlon in the last Winter Olympics.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> But, it's also why there are so few mass hammer killings in other countries.  They have a lot more strictures on hammer purchases.


What does it matter what kind of weapon someone is killed with?

Are people who are killed with guns "more dead" than people who are killed with hammers?




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Apparently the congresspeople feel differently.  Otherwise it wouldn't matter what their "gun score" is given by the NRA.


No.  It's not the donations that they care about.  It's the "being voted out of office forever" part that they try to avoid.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Flash said:


> I am a Life Member but I am not proud of it because of the corruption of the upper leadership.
> I support GOA now.


GOA is a great group, but don't believe everything bad that you hear about the NRA.

The left is expressly demonizing the NRA in the hopes of preventing the NRA from upholding the Constitution.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, I'd say that any rifle that isn't single action or bolt action, qualifies.


It doesn't.

Assault rifles:

a) are capable of either full-auto or burst-fire

b) accept detachable magazines

c) fire rounds that are less powerful than a standard deer rifle, and

d) are effective at a range of 300 meters.


This means that semi-auto-only guns are not assault rifles.

This means that guns with fixed magazines are not assault rifles.

This means that guns that fire handgun/shotgun/rimfire rounds are not assault rifles.

This means that guns that fire rounds equal-to or greater-than the power of a standard deer rifle are not assault rifles.




Vagabond63 said:


> Why would anyone need a semi-automatic rifle to hunt game?


This "need" nonsense is serf speech.  Americans are not serfs.  We use whatever kind of gun we want to, and we don't justify ourselves to anyone.

One reason why hunters choose to use a semi-auto action is to tame recoil on powerful rounds.




Vagabond63 said:


> Are American hunters all such bad shots?


No.




Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, so you have no faith that your armed forces; Army, National Guard, Navy and Air Force and nuclear weapons are capable of protecting you. If the greatest military force in history can't, what makes you think your assault rifle can?


Sometimes agents of the government are not present to protect us when a criminal is attacking us, and it falls upon us to protect ourselves.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The shooters are going for the closest thing they can get their hands on, to a real assault rifle, for obvious reasons.
> in *Black! *
> What is an assault rifle?
> *a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use.*
> ...


Since when are semi-auto-only AR-15s designed for infantry use?

And why would it matter even if they were?




Donald H said:


> I'm a Canadian. That which applies to this discussion would be a difference in the frequency of America's wars. This is speaking directly to the point I'm attempting to make here. Michael Moore has been making the point for years, and did so admirably well with his award winning, Bowling for Columbine.


As I recall, Michael Moore has been caught lying in his documentaries.




Donald H said:


> Michael Moore's main point is well known but it's being completely ignored, except for the hate that is being expressed toward him for bringing it to light.


I'm not sure what main point you are talking about, so it isn't as well known as you think.

But I would guess that his main point is being ignored because it is an outright lie.




Donald H said:


> For an idea on something productive in the meantime, until some Americans stop fearing the truth:
> The AR-15's and the large capacity magazines facilitate the large number of children killed by a shooter who has that ambition.


They do no such thing.  That is not even remotely the truth.




Donald H said:


> That's a fact!


No it isn't.




Donald H said:


> I don't know what to do about the problem.


There is no problem.




Donald H said:


> *Why are you avoiding a discussion on Michael Moore's position?*


If you mean the falsehood listed above, I'm happy to discuss the fact that it is not true.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Both suggestions are sensible, but do American politicians do sensible?


Both suggestions are outrageous violations of our civil liberties.


----------



## Briss (Jun 5, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> GOA is a great group, but don't believe everything bad that you hear about the NRA.
> 
> The left is expressly demonizing the NRA in the hopes of preventing the NRA from upholding the Constitution.


Had NRA members been at Uvalde, they could have given those cops a lesson on how and why to use a firearm.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

flan327 said:


> Lying troll 😈


I see no falsehoods in his post.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> If I were in the NRA and I wanted to make a solid point to ensure that my guns were kept safe I would DEFINITELY want to support something like an "assault weapons ban" since that will effectively keep people from thinking about the fact that so many other guns have a similar capability.
> The key is to distract those who aren't familiar with how guns operate by letting them think that all the "tricked out military gew-gaws" on an AR-15 somehow make it more deadly than a semiautomatic rifle or handgun so that people would feel like they actually achieved meaningful change by enacting the assault weapon ban but really just leaving the next mass shooting to a slightly different looking gun.
> Otherwise people will start thinking that ALL guns need to be more strongly controlled or, gasp, even banned.
> That would be sub-optimal for those who wish to defend the right to own guns without any real oversight.





Cardinal Carminative said:


> I'm sure there must be some small advantage to things like that.  But I think the NRA and 2A advocates should make sure that they keep secret the fact that there are a LOT of options for mass shooters that will be just about as effective not equally effective.
> That way the Lefties will vote for the little fixes and feel like something meaningful has happened but the shootings can continue unabated.  It's kind of win-win for America.


There are a number of problems with that strategy.

The first is, it is completely unacceptable for any gun to be outlawed for no reason, and that includes the AR-15.

Second, if we did allow it to be outlawed, progressives would just move on to demanding their next ban.  So long as we hold the line on the AR-15, progressives never move on to demanding the next ban.

Third, many pushes for stronger background checks have been defeated expressly because progressives undermine them by demanding that their attempts to outlaw the AR-15 take precedence over background checks.  So long as we keep fighting for the AR-15, progressives will keep using the issue to undermine their own position.

Fourth, as long as the gun control fight is all about the AR-15, it is an easy win for the NRA.  Since there is actually no reason to outlaw them, the NRA finds it easy to convince congressmen to oppose such a ban.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> The accusation of "Lies" is apparently all you guys have.
> Literally ANYTHING that is said that DOESN'T come to the conclusion that more guns = GOOD! you will decree as a "lie".


It is reasonable that falsehoods be denounced as such.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> It makes having nuanced discussions with you folks impossible, which is why I have stopped and just mock now.  You guys don't care about facts, you don't care about science, you pick and choose those things which you like the most and you call everything else a "lie".


That is incorrect.  That we denounce falsehoods shows that we do care about facts and science.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Meanwhile *America has a mass shooting every week or so.*  When it happens you guys _try to find some way to classify it as something else!  AS IF THAT MATTERS!!_


If a mass shooting is actually not a mass shooting, I think that detail matters.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> America has the highest per capita rate of gun ownership _*and the highest rate of gun homicides in the developed world.
> THAT'S ALL BECAUSE OF YOU GUYS.  100% YOUR WIN!  You won!  Now collect your prizes which are piles of dead kids so mangled that they require DNA testing to identify them*_*.*


So what?  Are people "more dead" when they are killed with a gun instead of killed with some other kind of weapon?




Cardinal Carminative said:


> You want guns?  This is your world.  You got 'em.
> Enjoy 'em.
> And the VERY SECOND ANY of you express "thoughts and prayers" or "care" about the families of the victims be prepared for people to mock you.


Don't worry.  No thoughts or prayers will be forthcoming from my end.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Unfortunately the time is coming where "compromise" is going to be too hard.  The side that his horrified by watching kids get mangled by guns so badly that they require DNA testing to identify them is getting really pissed and the side that is terrified that another pile of dead kids will threaten their ABILITY TO HAVE MORE GUNS is having to retrench further and further into a position where they seem to actively ignore the HORRORS to defend their hobby.


Nonsense.  Our "hobby" is not the cause of any dead kids.

Although, even if our "hobby" actually had been such a cause, our rights would still prevail.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I'm at the point now where I get tired of hearing about "law abiding gun owners", mainly because they are part of the problem.  They are the ones that are keeping our country awash in guns.  And the more guns they get the higher the probability that those guns will be used either against their own family (as the studies show) or get stolen and wind up in the hands of people who will use it against innocent victims.


Bogus studies.

There is no gun problem.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I honestly wish we'd show the mangled bodies after every shooting on prime-time TV.  To show everyone what we are really talking about here.  The pro-gun folks will pitch a fit because they know exactly what will happen next.


Actually I couldn't care less if they show the bodies.

I probably won't bother to look, but that'll be because I couldn't care less.  I don't care if others look.

Nothing at all will happen next.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> So we hide the truth.  We show videos of desperate parents in Texas screaming at police to go in and save their babies *but we bleep out the bad words*.  Why?  Because we are more terrified of bad words than we are of kids dying.
> Show us the truth of this debate.


Fine with me.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Let us make a decision based on the buckets of blood.


No.  We gun rights advocates will make the decisions.  And we will base our decisions on the Constitution.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

surada said:


> Other Countries Had Mass Shootings. Then They Changed Their Gun Laws.
> 
> 
> Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway: All had a culture of gun ownership, and all tightened restrictions anyway. Their violence statistics now diverge sharply from those of the U.S.
> ...


Fake news.  They did not improve their homicide statistics in any way when they abolished freedom in their countries.

Australia actually caused a massive years-long crime spree in their nation when they abolished their freedom.




surada said:


> Other countries permit abortions, stopped mass shootings and they also have universal healthcare and control their borders and illegals.


That is incorrect.  No country has found a way to stop mass shootings.


----------



## boedicca (Jun 5, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> Time for some new talking points, dude.




Time for some critical thinking, swampy.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 5, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> You can raise the age for firearms just as soon as you no longer allow the 18 19 and 20 year old in the military and vote.


Indeed.  And also the age when people can get a drivers license or be tried in court as an adult.


----------



## Donald H (Jun 6, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Since when are semi-auto-only AR-15s designed for infantry use?
> 
> And why would it matter even if they were?
> 
> ...


Judging by your 'is not, is not' answers, I'm guessing that you don't want to address any facts
If that's not true then argue the facts that were presented by MM on the culture of war.

I don't have time for just 'is nots'.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 6, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Both suggestions are outrageous violations of our civil liberties.


The kids at Uvalde said, "Shove your civil liberties where the sun doesn't shine"


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Donald H said:


> ... I'm guessing that you don't want to address any facts


Says he who tucks tail and runs _every time_ he is challenged to support his assertions.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The kids at Uvalde said, "Shove your civil liberties where the sun doesn't shine"




No...that is what the government agents said when they decided to wait over an hour to go in and when they put handcuffs on the mother who wanted to save her children......


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...that is what the government agents said when they decided to wait over an hour to go in and when they put handcuffs on the mother who wanted to save her children......


The kids think pro gunners are arseholes.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The kids think pro gunners are arseholes.




Wonder what they would think of the government agents who were supposed to protect them?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wonder what they would think of the government agents who were supposed to protect them?


They think pro gunners are arseholes.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why would anyone get violent when someone comes in and steals their stuff? Ridiculous!!!
> 
> What's your address?


Thank you for making my point for me. Any housholder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Thank you for making my point for me. Any housholder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.



Why?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Thank you for making my point for me. Any housholder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.




The violence was caused by the criminal, not the homeowner.....you keep tap dancing...trying to hide the violence in 59% pf the burglaries in Britain........wonder how often burglaries turn into rapes......


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why?




He is looking for a way to blame the violent burglary rate in Britain on the victims, like a typical leftist.....if they would just comply, take the waterboarding and torture quietly and without complaint, they would make the whole ordeal less awkward...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> ..trying to hide the violence in 59% pf the burglaries in Britain..


Not at all, but you still haven't proved who starts the violence. What proportion of that alleged 59% is started by the householder, and what by the burglar?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Thank you for making my point for me. Any housholder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.


2014-2016
~7.1 million property crimes where the resident was present.
In ~5.8 million of these, the resident took no action, while ~379k threatened or attacked the intruder.
Thus, your assertion has no basis in fact.


			https://vpc.org/studies/justifiable20.pdf
		

Page 6.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> He is looking for a way to blame the violent burglary rate in Britain on the victims, like a typical leftist.....if they would just comply, take the waterboarding and torture quietly and without complaint, they would make the whole ordeal less awkward...


More complete drivel because you have no idea who starts the violence. Just another pathetic attempt to fear-monger.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Not at all, but you still haven't proved who starts the violence. What proportion of that alleged 59% is started by the householder, and what by the burglar?



Why would a householder start violence?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> 2014-2016
> ~7.1 million property crimes where the resident was present.
> In ~5.8 million of these, the resident took no action, while ~379k threatened or attacked the intruder.
> Thus, your assertion has no basis in fact.
> ...


In America perhaps, we were discussing the UK, do keep up.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Any housholder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.


In what % of home invasions is this true, and how do you know?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why would a householder start violence?


To defend themselves and/or their property and to frighten the burglar, guns aren't necessary in either case.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Not at all, but you still haven't proved who starts the violence. What proportion of that alleged 59% is started by the householder, and what by the burglar?




Yeah....the guy who enters someone elses home begins all of the violence......you twit.   

When you enter someone's home, uninvited, you have placed the owner is a state of imminent threat......so any violence is on you, you dumb ass...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> n what % of home invasions is this true, and how do you know?


Nice try at deflection, ask 2Aguy, that was my exact question to him.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> To defend themselves and/or their property and to frighten the burglar, guns aren't necessary in either case.




Yeah...they are......

You tell that to the 60 year old woman with a bad hip......hey lady, just whip out your best Krav Maga moves....

You dumb ass......


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah....the guy who enters someone elses home begins all of the violence......you twit.


Does he? Prove it.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Nice try at deflection, ask 2Aguy, that was my exact question to him.




And you got the answer.....all of it is on the home invader/s


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Does he? Prove it.




The simple act of invading someones home is a threat of violence......so any actual violence is on the invader, not the homeowner...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The simple act of invading someones home is a threat of violence......so any actual violence is on the invader, not the homeowner...


Bull****.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> To defend themselves and/or their property and to frighten the burglar,



So the 59% doesn't count, because some is the person defending themselves or their property?

*guns aren't necessary in either case.*

What if the perps are three 20 year old guys and the homeowner is a 70 year old woman?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Nice try at deflection, ask 2Aguy, that was my exact question to him.


You didn't ask a question, you made a statement:

Any householder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.        

So...
In what % of home invasions is this true, and how do you know?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> To defend themselves and/or their property and to frighten the burglar, *guns aren't necessary in either case.*


Please prove _*this *_to be true.


----------



## miketx (Jun 6, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Lol  total bs.









						Woman credited with stopping mass shooting at apartment complex in West Virginia
					

Police say a woman's actions may have prevented a mass casualty event following an altercation about a man speeding through a neighborhood.




					www.wral.com


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Bull****.




No, the truth.   This is why you idiots can't be trusted.........you have "Reality Dyslexia,"......the truth, facts and reality are reversed in your tiny brains....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So the 59% doesn't count, because some is the person defending themselves or their property?
> 
> *guns aren't necessary in either case.*
> 
> What if the perps are three 20 year old guys and the homeowner is a 70 year old woman?


How many of those 59% of violent UK burglaries were against 70 year old women?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No, the truth.   This is why you idiots can't be trusted.........you have "Reality Dyslexia,"......the truth, facts and reality are reversed in your tiny brains....


You are projecting your own faults and insecurities again in a pathetic attempt to avoid answering the question, what proportion of that 59% statistic was started by householders and what by the burglars.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jun 6, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



This is the post of an imbecile.

1). Exactly WHO will bar these politicians when THEY make the laws ????

2). You are such as assclown.  Absolutely CLUELESS in Seattle over what the 2nd Amendment is all about.

What kind of closet dwelling, void of historical knowledge fool would even make this kind of post?
You make absolutely no mention of the ROOT CAUSE of a nation which has turned to violence.....LEFTIST POLICIES AND GODLESS DOCTRINES.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> How many of those 59% of violent UK burglaries were against 70 year old women?




Does it matter?  I posted about a burglary where they held a hot clothes iron to the woman's stomach, and made another woman walk across broken glass barefoot....you idiot......


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You are projecting your own faults and insecurities again in a pathetic attempt to avoid answering the question, what proportion of that 59% statistic was started by householders and what by the burglars.




It doesn't matter.   What you desperately want to avoid is the truth that any violence is created by the criminal entering the house illegally.......the victim did not start the violence, the criminal did when they broke in....

That you really want to blame the victim shows a deep sickness in you....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You didn't ask a question, you made a statement:
> 
> Any householder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.
> 
> ...


See post #525, do keep up.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You are projecting your own faults and insecurities again in a pathetic attempt to avoid answering the question, what proportion of that 59% statistic was started by householders and what by the burglars.




Yep.....who actually initiated the rape.....the man who raped the woman, or the woman who wore the short skirt?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> How many of those 59% of violent UK burglaries were against 70 year old women?



How many 70 year old victims don't need to protect themselves?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> What you desperately want to avoid is the truth that any violence is created by the criminal entering the house illegally.......the victim did not start the violence, the criminal did when they broke in....


Hardly, because using your own statistics 41% of burglaries when the victim was present are non violent.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jun 6, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.



And another fucktard with birdshit for brains


----------



## BS Filter (Jun 6, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> We need "common sense" gun laws like Hitler, Stalin and Mao where only the government Good Guys had the guns! No school shootings there


Correct.  Fire up the ovens.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep.....who actually initiated the rape.....the man who raped the woman, or the woman who wore the short skirt?


Another pathetic attempt to deflect from the subject, we are discussing how many violent burglaries are initiated by the householder encountering the burglar, and how many by the burglar.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Hardly, because using your own statistics 41% of burglaries when the victim was present are non violent.



Who the fuck are YOU ???

You're not even an American citizen.

GFY too.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many 70 year old victims don't need to protect themselves?


I asked first. You are just deflecting.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Hardly, because using your own statistics 41% of burglaries when the victim was present are non violent.




Yes...the burglar decided not to beat or torture the victim.....the entire choice left to the criminal...

Meanwhile....the other 59%...

Wealthy retired couple tortured by burglars who forced wife to walk on broken glass in £20,000 raid


*wealthy couple were tortured by "Swat team" burglars who forced the wife to walk on broken glass before breaking one of her toes with a sledgehammer while stealing £20,000 of gold and jewels.

Professional burglars John McCarthy, 35, and Richard Leslie, 37, were branded "every householder's worst nightmare" after playing leading roles in the gang that terrorised the vulnerable pensioners for four hours during a night-time raid.

--------

During their ordeal, the couple, aged in their 70s, were bound with tape, beaten, threatened and locked in a utility room.

The burglars hit the 77-year-old man with a chair and forced his 75-year-old wife to walk barefoot on glass, having discarded her slippers.

One of the burglars threatened to cut off the wife's fingers and ear with a pair of shears if gold, cash and Rolex watches were not produced.

She also needed extensive dental treatment because of the beating to her face. Her husband was stuck with pins "many times" to extort more valuables, the court heard.

During the attack, one of the armed intruders boasted: "This is what we do for a living."

They made off with Chinese ornaments in 24 carat gold, jewellery, silver commemorative coins featuring Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher, gold bars, a custom-made Seiko watch as well as thousands of pounds and Hong Kong dollars in cash.*
============

Those wealthy assholes....you can tell...they obviously initiated the violence against those helpless burglars and forced the burglars to torture them.............

An Englishman's home is his dungeon

Various reassuring types, from police spokesmen to the Economist, described the stabbing of the Moncktons as a "burglary gone wrong". If only more burglaries could go right, they imply, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
But the trouble is that this kind of burglary - the kind most likely to go "wrong" - is now the norm in Britain. In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present. But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.
These days, even as he or she is being clobbered, the more thoughtful British subject is usually keeping an eye (the one that hasn't been poked out) on potential liability. 


*Four years ago, Shirley Best, proprietor of the Rolander Fashion emporium, whose clients include Zara Phillips, was ironing some clothes when the proverbial two youths showed up. They pressed the hot iron into her flesh, burning her badly, and then stole her watch. "I was frightened to defend myself," said Miss Best. "I thought if I did anything I would be arrested." There speaks the modern British crime victim.*

*Yep....ironing those clothes was likely percieved as a violent attack, so the burlars had to defend themselves...*

Waterboarded by a gang of robbers in her £7m home: Masked intruders torture grandmother, 73, for three hours to make her open a safe


That led to a terrifying three-hour ordeal in which the attackers used waterboarding – a form of torture in which the victim is made to feel they are about to be drowned.
The men took underwear from Mrs Jansen’s bedroom and forced it into her mouth before dragging her into the en-suite bathroom. They pulled her head back over the bath and covered her face with a towel they kept flooded with water from the shower head.
‘They did this to me three times but I just couldn’t open the safe,’ she said. ‘I kept telling them it was empty but they didn’t believe me.’
Mrs Jansen, who lives on a private estate in Weybridge, Surrey, told the Mail: ‘I was absolutely terrified, I thought they were going to kill me.
‘They asked me if I had any grandchildren, I told them I had ten and they said “We are going to kill you, do you think your grandchildren will miss you?”
‘I was consumed by fear. It was sheer hell and all I can remember is praying.’
Her six-bedroomed house had been broken into  several weeks before the attack last Friday and Surrey Police believe the raiders had located the two safes at that point.


Read more: Waterboarded by a gang of robbers in her £7m home: Masked intruders torture grandmother, 73, for three hours to make her open a safe
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jun 6, 2022)

All these foreign assclowns thinking they have a say in how we govern ourselves.

America was founded on individual freedom and a right to freedom from government oppression.
AND THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.   ITS IN OUR CONSTITUTION.

They need to go lick their dictators asses and STFU.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Another pathetic attempt to deflect from the subject, we are discussing how many violent burglaries are initiated by the householder encountering the burglar, and how many by the burglar.




I told you....none.  

The burglars inititate any violence the moment they enter the home without permission.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> See post #525, do keep up.


You asked a question in post # 525.
That question does -nothing - to support you claim that...

 "Any householder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.        

So...
In what % of home invasions is this true, and how do you know?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Who the fuck are YOU ???
> 
> You're not even an American citizen.
> 
> GFY too.


2Aguy brought up burglaries in the UK, you know Great Britain, that group of islands off the coast of Europe. Nothing to do with the USA, granted, but worthy of response by a UK citizen.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I told you....none.
> 
> The burglars inititate any violence the moment they enter the home without permission.


Prove it.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes...the burglar decided not to beat or torture the victim.....the entire choice left to the criminal...
> 
> Meanwhile....the other 59%...
> 
> ...



You're wasting valuable time again.
These imbeciles don't give a flying fuck about right or wrong or who dies.
They are agents of oppression looking to hand absolute power to the corrupt machines that feed them and direct them.

By arguing with them you are validating their anti-freedom BS.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> To defend themselves and/or their property and to frighten the burglar, _*guns aren't necessary in either case.*_


Please demonstrate _*this *_to be true.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You asked a question in post # 525.
> That question does -nothing - to support you claim that...
> 
> "Any householder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable.
> ...


Ask 2Aguy.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2Aguy brought up burglaries in the UK, you know Great Britain, that group of islands off the coast of Europe. Nothing to do with the USA, granted, but worthy of response by a UK citizen.




Let me fix that post for you....

* that group of....tiny, inconsequential..... islands*


----------



## Hellbilly (Jun 6, 2022)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> And another fucktard with birdshit for brains


You doubt that people think like this? Lets get a word from Open Bolt


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2Aguy brought up burglaries in the UK, you know Great Britain, that group of islands off the coast of Europe. Nothing to do with the USA, granted, but worthy of response by a UK citizen.



No, you're poking your head up asses where it doesn't belong.
If the Left wants to kill off it's people in Democrat controlled violent hell holes and their constituents are too stupid to see through it.....

OH WELL.  Buh bye now.
OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ARE NOT UP FOR YOUR ASSHOLE, UNINFORMED OPINIONS.

You perverted authoritarian loving jackasses are LUCKY the Conservative Right today is unfathomably weak and nothing like the men of the Founding Fathers era.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> You're wasting valuable time again.
> These imbeciles don't give a flying fuck about right or wrong or who dies.
> They are agents of oppression looking to hand absolute power to the corrupt machines that feed them and direct them.
> 
> By arguing with them you are validating their anti-freedom BS.




I don't debate them to change their minds....I debate them for the individuals who might look into this thread.....the people who only see anti-gun points of view in all the media they take in......and, in debating morons like this Brit, I find and develop information that I wouldn't find without the motivation of debating these asshats.....

These morons are like punching bags....I get a good workout, learn some things, but in the end, they are just bags full of sand.....


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ask 2Aguy.


I asked YOU because YOU made a claim. 
You are just deflecting because you know you cannot prove your claim.
Why do you make claims you know you cannot prove?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> I asked YOU because YOU made a claim.


Sorry, remind me what claim you think I made.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I don't debate them to change their minds....I debate them for the individuals who might look into this thread.....the people who only see anti-gun points of view in all the media they take in......and, in debating morons like this Brit, I find and develop information that I wouldn't find without the motivation of debating these asshats.....
> 
> These morons are like punching bags....I get a good workout, learn some things, but in the end, they are just bags full of sand.....


Oops, he's projecting his fears insecurities and inadequacies on to others again.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Why do you make claims you know you cannot prove?


You are confusing me with 2Aguy. I merely challenge his claims.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Sorry, remind me what claim you think I made.


Do -try- to keep up.
"Any householder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable."


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You are confusing me with 2Aguy. I merely challenge his claims.


This is a lie, as you know you claimed "Any householder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable."


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You are projecting your own faults and insecurities again in a pathetic attempt to avoid answering the question, what proportion of that 59% statistic was started by householders and what by the burglars.


Just screw off the Burgler violated the sanctity of the home threatening the home occupants by invading ILLEGALLY.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it.


LOL God are you amazingly STUPID. the Burgler initiated the violence by BREAKING into a home that was not theirs. They threaten the home occupants JUST by BEING there.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL God are you amazingly STUPID. the Burgler initiated the violence by BREAKING into a home that was not theirs. They threaten the home occupants JUST by BEING there.




He really wants to blame the homeowner and sympathize with the criminal....he can't help himself...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Do -try- to keep up.
> "Any householder who encounters a burglar in their home are more than likely to attack them if they are at all capable."


Oh, that. It tends to be true in the UK. Here are a few examples:
Estate agent fights off three masked burglars in Rochdale home

Man left with bruising after fighting off would-be robbers

Brave have-a-go-hero fights off machete-wielding burglar with plank of wood

Gabriel: Arsenal defender fought off robbers armed with baseball bat

Duncan Ferguson fights off two intruders









						Truth behind 'what happened when man burgled ex-Royal Marine'
					

This picture has been circulating on the internet as an example of instant karma




					www.plymouthherald.co.uk
				




The last one I find entertaining as the "victim" was a 70 year old. There are many, many more examples.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, that. It tends to be true in the UK. Here are a few examples:
> Estate agent fights off three masked burglars in Rochdale home
> 
> Man left with bruising after fighting off would-be robbers
> ...


Those dont say what you think they say, they say the home owners were DEFENDING themselves from attacks by the Burglars you stupid ****.


----------



## Canon Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.



That's ignorant.

How many mass shootings were committed by members of the NRA?



Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.



You don't _need _to run your mouth, but you do.

You don't even know what an "assault rifle" is, so spare me your tired rhetoric.

And, see, here's the thing about rights, Kitten: You don't have to explain why you exercise them. Period.

Getting rid of the so-called "assault rifles" isn't going to cut down on mass shootings. It will only cut down on the number of mass shootings committed with "assault rifles".

Your idea is stupid and, as such, is dismissed with all the consideration it's worthy of...  



Ms. Turquoise said:


> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



Armed, trained personnel on school grounds and in the classrooms is the best answer to come along thus far...


----------



## Canon Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.



How does me having firearms endanger children? More children have died on playgrounds during recess than have been killed by my 47 firearms...


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, that. It tends to be true in the UK. Here are a few examples:


The fact you can only suppoprt your claim with ancedotes indicates you know your claim is unsupportable.
Concession accepted.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, that. It tends to be true in the UK. Here are a few examples:
> Estate agent fights off three masked burglars in Rochdale home
> 
> Man left with bruising after fighting off would-be robbers
> ...



Yes.....some people can fight off criminals who are only there to burgle.....the 70 year old couple couldn't, so they made the woman walk over broken glass in her bare feet, and the other woman had a hot clothes iron held to her stomach......

I enjoy how you want the victims to be at a disadvantage against monsters.....you truly are insane and foolish.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, that. It tends to be true in the UK. Here are a few examples:
> Estate agent fights off three masked burglars in Rochdale home
> 
> Man left with bruising after fighting off would-be robbers
> ...




Yep...... your brain is broken.......you suffer from "reality dyslexia."  To you, the victim is the aggressor, the violent criminals the victim....

I don't know how you would cure what you have, but you should get help.


----------



## Donald H (Jun 6, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Says he who tucks tail and runs _every time_ he is challenged to support his assertions.


I'm too busy talking to adults right now. Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to straighten out my tail?


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 6, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Judging by your 'is not, is not' answers, I'm guessing that you don't want to address any facts


It is just the opposite.  My denunciation of falsehoods shows that I do want to address facts.




Donald H said:


> If that's not true then argue the facts that were presented by MM on the culture of war.


If Michael Moore wishes to post anything here, I'll address what he says.

If you wish to quote any of his claims, I'll address your post.

But if no one posts any of these claims, I will have no idea what they even are.

And note: if any of the claims are untrue, I will address them by pointing out that they are untrue.




Donald H said:


> I don't have time for just 'is nots'.


It is appropriate that untrue claims are denied.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 6, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The kids at Uvalde said, "Shove your civil liberties where the sun doesn't shine"


I'm used to politically defeating freaks like them.  We defeated the whiny brats from Parkland for example.




Captain Caveman said:


> The kids think pro gunners are arseholes.


The kids are whiny brats.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> To defend themselves and/or their property and to frighten the burglar, guns aren't necessary in either case.


This "need" nonsense is inappropriate in America.  People here are not serfs like in the UK.

We don't have to convince you or anyone else that we need anything before we are allowed to have it.  We do as we please and we don't bother to justify ourselves to anyone.




Vagabond63 said:


> Another pathetic attempt to deflect from the subject, we are discussing how many violent burglaries are initiated by the householder encountering the burglar, and how many by the burglar.


The burglary, violent or not, is always initiated by the burglar.




Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it.


The fact that burglars are responsible for burglaries is self evident.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 7, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> The fact you can only suppoprt your claim with ancedotes indicates you know your claim is unsupportable. Concession accepted.


Why thank you for making my case for me. 2AGuy nearly always uses anecdotes to fear monger, knowing full well his claims are unsupportable, concession accepted.

Curious why you never seem to challenge him accordingly, oh wait, your "name" is M14 Shooter, just another gun crazy then. OK.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 7, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> We do as we please and we don't bother to justify ourselves to anyone.


ROFL! Oh yes, America, arose from barbarism and declined into decadence without ever passing through civilisation. You are manipulated by your media, corporations and wealthy predator class to do what they want you to do, while maintaining the illusion of "freedom"


Open Bolt said:


> The burglary, violent or not, is always initiated by the burglar.


Wow, no sh** Sherlock. That however is not the point.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep...... your brain is broken.......you suffer from "reality dyslexia." To you, the victim is the aggressor, the violent criminals the victim....


So that means you still cannot tell me in those cases of alleged violent burglaries, how many times the burglar started the violence, and how many times the householder did (to be clear for the idiots out there, in self defence and/or defence of property). Oh, and now you're inventing disorders... or are you projecting your own disorders on to others again?


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> ROFL! Oh yes, America, arose from barbarism and declined into decadence without ever passing through civilisation.


You may dislike that we are free, but you can't do anything to take our freedom away from us.




Vagabond63 said:


> 2AGuy nearly always uses anecdotes to fear monger, knowing full well his claims are unsupportable, concession accepted.


Nonsense.  His claims are true.




Vagabond63 said:


> So that means you still cannot tell me in those cases of alleged violent burglaries, how many times the burglar started the violence, and how many times the householder did (to be clear for the idiots out there, in self defence and/or defence of property).


If there is violence in a burglary, the violence is always the fault of the burglar.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 7, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


/------/ 1. Common sensnse gun laws is code for ban and confiscation.
2. Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category. 
we eargly await your misinformed response.


----------



## braalian (Jun 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Hardly, because using your own statistics 41% of burglaries when the victim was present are non violent.


100% of burglaries are violent by definition.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So that means you still cannot tell me in those cases of alleged violent burglaries, how many times the burglar started the violence, and how many times the householder did (to be clear for the idiots out there, in self defence and/or defence of property). Oh, and now you're inventing disorders... or are you projecting your own disorders on to others again?




Yeah....keep trying.......blame the victims, protect the criminal.   What is it with you idiots.......?

I can see you sitting there slapping handcuffs on the homeowner because they defended their family.....you really are a dumb ass...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> ROFL! Oh yes, America, arose from barbarism and declined into decadence without ever passing through civilisation. You are manipulated by your media, corporations and wealthy predator class to do what they want you to do, while maintaining the illusion of "freedom"
> 
> Wow, no sh** Sherlock. That however is not the point.




Yeah...right......Europe, the home of colonialism, socialism, fascism, marxism, the religious wars between Protestant and Catholics, World War 1 and World War 2, the murder of 15 million innocent men, women and children....after 1917.......the Holocaust...ethnic cleansing....

And now, you shitheads arrest people who sing "Kung Fu Fighting....."

You have been monsters and now you are jokes.....

And it took  Americans with our guns to save you and keep you from slaughtering each other all over again....


----------



## Donald H (Jun 7, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> It is just the opposite.  My denunciation of falsehoods shows that I do want to address facts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The  continuous wars started by America throughout the world has created a 'culture' of violence and killing with guns. That's what has made the violent video games so popular.

Michael Moore made the point clear throughout his 'Bowling for Columbine', as well as other times.

He's being ignored because no American, right or left, can accept the condemnation of their countries wars of aggression.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 7, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The  continuous wars started by America throughout the world has created a 'culture' of violence and killing with guns. That's what has made the violent video games so popular.
> 
> Michael Moore made the point clear throughout his 'Bowling for Columbine', as well as other times.
> 
> He's being ignored because no American, right or left, can accept the condemnation of their countries wars of aggression.


Canada was in most of them as well so I guess your Country is no better right you Canadian retard?


----------



## Donald H (Jun 7, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Canada was in most of them as well so I guess your Country is no better right you Canadian retard?


Canada wasn't in most of them but Canada bears guilt for taking part in a couple of them. Canadians can condemn their own country when it's due.

Stop the childish 'retard' stuff or you'll be written off as immature.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 7, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I'm too busy talking to adults right now.


I'm sorry you don't like the fact you turn tail and run every time you are challenged, but there's nothing I can do about it.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Why thank you for making my case for me


You failed to make your case.
When think you can, let us know.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 7, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The  continuous wars started by America throughout the world has created a 'culture' of violence and killing with guns.


This is where I ask you to demonstrate your claim to be true; you will respond by tucking your tail and running away.
Like you always do.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 7, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /------/ 1. Common sensnse gun laws is code for ban and confiscation.
> 2. Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.
> we eargly await your misinformed response.
> View attachment 654899


When you learn how to spell, maybe I'll answer your questions. Sensnse. Eargly. 
What was that Trump said? "I love my uneducated voters?"


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 7, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> When you learn how to spell, maybe I'll answer your questions. Sensnse. Eargly.
> What was that Trump said? "I love my uneducated voters?"


So you can not define what an assault weapon is and when you did say a certain type was one it was actually a machine gun not an AR-15. But whine about spelling.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 7, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The continuous wars started by America throughout the world has created a 'culture' of violence and killing with guns. That's what has made the violent video games so popular.
> Michael Moore made the point clear throughout his 'Bowling for Columbine', as well as other times.
> He's being ignored because no American, right or left, can accept the condemnation of their countries wars of aggression.


I reject the left's contention that when we are attacked and defend ourselves, we are responsible for starting the war.

I would even consider such claims a form of treason designed to aid the forces that seek to destroy us.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 7, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> When you learn how to spell, maybe I'll answer your questions. Sensnse. Eargly.
> What was that Trump said? "I love my uneducated voters?"


/———/ OK. I corrected the typo. Now answer my question.
1. Common sense gun laws is code for ban and confiscation.
2. Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.
We eagerly  await your misinformed response.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 8, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> You may dislike that we are free, but you can't do anything to take our freedom away from us.


I have no intention whatsoever, nor do I care one way or the other about how much you believe you are "free"; whatever rocks your boat. Belief and reality are however, different.


Open Bolt said:


> Nonsense. His claims are true.


In your dreams.



Open Bolt said:


> If there is violence in a burglary, the violence is always the fault of the burglar.


Ah, you are talking about ultimate responsibility, while I am asking who actually initiates any violence that occurs during a burglary, two different subjects.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 8, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> I reject the left's contention that when we are attacked and defend ourselves, we are responsible for starting the war.


You really need to look beyond who fired the first shot and into the underlying causes that provoked them to do so.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jun 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> ROFL! Oh yes, America, arose from barbarism and declined into decadence without ever passing through civilisation. You are manipulated by your media, corporations and wealthy predator class to do what they want you to do, while maintaining the illusion of "freedom"
> 
> Wow, no sh** Sherlock. That however is not the point.


 
And yet inexplicably many in the UK brush off or are even proud of their pagan, Roman and even Norse heritage.

Idiots and hypocrites, the lot of you.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You failed to make your case.


Didn't have to, you yourself made it for me. Thank you.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 8, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> And yet inexplicably many in the UK brush off or are even proud of their pagan, Roman and even Norse heritage.
> 
> Idiots and hypocrites, the lot of you.


What's wrong with our heritage, it's an acknowledgement of where we came from and how far we have progressed. How is that idiotic or hypocritical. We don't deny our history, good and bad, unlike some.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jun 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have no intention whatsoever, nor do I care one way or the other about how much you believe you are "free"; whatever rocks your boat. Belief and reality are however, different.
> 
> In your dreams.
> 
> ...



Why do foreigners come to our message boards and ASSume we care what they think of us or our nation?


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jun 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What's wrong with our heritage, it's an acknowledgement of where we came from and how far we have progressed. How is that idiotic or hypocritical. We don't deny our history, good and bad, unlike some.



You realize you just make crap up. "Deny our history"...what does that even mean, do you even think Americans "deny our history"?

Bug off at any rate. No one cares what you think. Go back to fluffing up your ancient queen


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jun 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What's wrong with our heritage, it's an acknowledgement of where we came from and how far we have progressed. How is that idiotic or hypocritical. We don't deny our history, good and bad, unlike some.



Would Rotherham be an example of "how far you progressed"?


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 8, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Kids in schools are usually shot by other kids.  I gave a gun law solution to that above.
> 
> Semi-automatic rifles sold publicly are not military grade.  The shooter in Las Vegas brought 6 of them with him because he had modified them to be MORE like an automatic military grade weapon.  When they stormed his hotel suite -- they found 2 or 3 of them COMPLETELY ruined with the barrels melted and jammed up.  AR does not stand for "assault rifle" -- look it up.
> 
> ...


Civilian rifles are not built to handle automatic fire.   The barrels and other components cannot handle the heat auto-fire generates.  Military-grade firearms with full-auto capabilities are about 3x the cost.

Average AR clone - $1500 -$2000

M4 - $4500 - $6000

M249 machine gun  -$12,000 -$15,000


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 8, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> Why do foreigners come to our message boards and ASSume we care what they think of us or our nation?


Well, if your members would stop their pathetic efforts to use us as an example of "gun control laws don't work" in an effort to frighten Americans into buying more guns, we wouldn't need to turn up and keep demolishing their assertions.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 8, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> Would Rotherham be an example of "how far you progressed"?


Yes, the gang was caught and imprisoned. As were other such gangs in other cities before and since. Intersting fact, "The United States is one of the most active sex trafficking countries in the world, where exploitation of trafficking victims occurs in cities, suburban and rural areas. Labor trafficking occurs in the U.S., but at lower rates than most developing countries." Learn the Truth About Child Trafficking Myth Vs. Fact

Oh and a bit of history for you US History of Sexual Exploitation of Children (News) - Women At Risk, International

People in glass houses....


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, if your members would stop their pathetic efforts to use us as an example of "gun control laws don't work" in an effort to frighten Americans into buying more guns,


Nothing gets Americans to buy more guns than leftist poltiicians telling Americans they want to ban guns, tax guns, tax ammunition, repeal the 2nd...


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Belief and reality are however, different.


Not in my case.  That's why no one can point out any errors in my posts.




Vagabond63 said:


> In your dreams.


So how come no one can point out any errors in his posts?




Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, you are talking about ultimate responsibility, while I am asking who actually initiates any violence that occurs during a burglary, two different subjects.


What does it matter who initiates the violence?




Vagabond63 said:


> You really need to look beyond who fired the first shot and into the underlying causes that provoked them to do so.


That's why the US is never responsible for any act of violence we commit against other countries.  We are always provoked into doing it.




Vagabond63 said:


> Well, if your members would stop their pathetic efforts to use us as an example of "gun control laws don't work" in an effort to frighten Americans into buying more guns, we wouldn't need to turn up and keep demolishing their assertions.


No one is trying to frighten anyone or get them to buy guns.

But it is pretty clear that the only thing that the UK achieved when they abolished freedom, is the loss of their freedom.

They certainly didn't save any lives.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 8, 2022)

Briss said:


> How many of your examples are going to turn out to not be someone bent on killing as many students as possible?


I would guess 99% of them.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 8, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Is the current rate of mass shootings and dead kids still within the "noise" for you?  An "acceptable level"?


It depends.  I wouldn't object to a measure to actually prevent such murders, should any such measure ever be proposed and it not be a civil liberties violation.

I'm certainly not going to let the left use those dead brats as an excuse to outlaw freedom here in the US the way they outlawed freedom in the UK and Australia though.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Tell me truthfully:  *do you rely on ANYTHING ELSE Mother Jones publishes for ANYTHING?*
> (I know you don't because they are extremely left and you don't strike me as someone who is extremely left.  So it kinda sounds hypocritical of you to CHERRY PICK THE ONLY THING YOU LIKE from them to defend your point.  Everyone knowns they take a much more conservative value than others do.   Which is why everyone else sees the number of mass shootings we have as a "problem" where you just see it as "OK".


That isn't even remotely hypocritical.

Focusing on accurate data is hardly cherry picking.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> ^^^^Just earlier I was marveling at how gun advocates LOVE to talk gun specs.....*even in the middle of a discussion about the horrors of children being murdered by guns.*


That "talk about gun specs" was actually an on-topic valid point.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I understand it, you are mortified by 20 dead kids, some of which were so ground up by the shots that they had to be identified by DNA because they couldn't visually identified by their parents.  Good for you.
> But in hiding from that you run directly to your "safe topic"....GUN SPECIFICATIONS.


Making on-topic valid points is not hiding from anything.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Do you see the problem there?


Progressives are the problem.  If we get rid of progressives, we will no longer have to worry about our civil liberties being violated for no reason.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Right?  I mean if you constantly remind the folks who aren't supportive of guns that there's little difference, functionally between a semi-auto hunting rifle and an AR-15 they might start saying that guns are bad.  And then they'd read the science articles that show more guns correlates with more deaths and next thing you know they're banning ALL guns!


Fake news.  Science shows that there is little correlation between gun availability and homicide rates.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Just the ones that make it easy for someone to kill a lot of people quickly.


So, none of them?




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Umm, sorry I didn't know it was time to bring that up.  Yes I'm against him too.  But then he was pretty upset by the government trying to take guns from a nutjob religious sect.
> No, but he was mad because people he agreed with were being told to give up their guns so he decided that he'd take revenge with a bomb.


He was right to be upset.  The ATF should have been disbanded and prosecuted.  If they had been, he might never have felt compelled to carry out his bombing attack.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> You act as if mental healthcare is really easy to get and free here in America.  Maybe you guys who like guns so much would be willing to pay a special surcharge on your guns and ammo purchases that would help fund improved mental healthcare?


No.  But I'd be willing to impose a tax on progressives to pay for it.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Oh wait, most of you guys don't like that idea because most of you don't give a flying fuck about the mentally ill, they are just handy ways to distract the conversation away from the really efficient tools the mentally ill have access to to make their wildest horrors come true.


The reason why we don't like the idea is because we dislike having our rights violated.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> If I had a hobby that had countless numbers of cases where people killed others with that hobby I would seriously consider giving up some of my "rights" with regards to that hobby.


You can give up your freedom for no reason if you like, but you can't give up anyone else's freedom.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> But then I actually DO care about other people and not so much about guns.


If you cared about people it seems like you'd want to help them instead of making pointless attacks against freedom.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> What kind of country do you WANT?  Is it one where there's record-breaking levels of gun homicides unlike any other similarly situated country?  Is that what you LIKE about the US?  Is it an ATTRACTION?  Or do you simply ignore it or work overtime to find confirmation biased sources so you don't have to think about it?


I simply ignore it.  I mean, who cares what method murderers use to commit their crimes?

Focusing on accurate data is hardly confirmation bias.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Would you be willing to tell the families of Newtown, Stoneman Douglas and Uvalde that they are just something that "happens", oops, no problem?
> For a second imagine yourself telling those parents that their kids' death was just "in the noise" for you and that they are acting irrationally to be upset about it.
> (I know even YOU aren't that brave, lol)


I might have told them that if they were not trying to use their dead brats as a weapon to attack my freedom.

But since they are, I think I'd rather tell them that their dead brats are fake and never even existed.  And then take a sledgehammer to their dead brats' gravestones.

Not that I believe that conspiracy theory.  But I kind of like the idea of inflicting pain and distress on scumbags who are trying to violate my rights.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jun 9, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, if your members would stop their pathetic efforts to use us as an example of "gun control laws don't work" in an effort to frighten Americans into buying more guns, we wouldn't need to turn up and keep demolishing their assertions.



You don't have to do anything. And we don't care what you think.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 9, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> You don't have to do anything. And we don't care what you think.


Clearly YOU do.


----------



## Pellinore (Jun 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



I assume that over the previous 33 pages the fact that "assault rifles," being by definition weapons capable of fully automatic fire, are already behind the Class III license restrictions, and are therefore almost never present in criminal use.  

As for the NRA, I understand the issue, but I think barring any one organization from political contributions is a) not likely to get past court challenges, b) a questionable precedent at best, and c) easily bypassed.  Also, the NRA doesn't seem to be the powerhouse it was several years ago.  I think supporting campaign finance report and the overturning of Citizens United would be a much better strategy toward this goal.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 9, 2022)

Pellinore said:


> Also, the NRA doesn't seem to be the powerhouse it was several years ago.


Wishful thinking on the part of the left.  I think the NRA remains more than able to block the left's attempts to violate our civil liberties.




Pellinore said:


> the overturning of Citizens United would be a much better strategy toward this goal.


Not likely to succeed, given the Constitution.  Also, not likely to harm the NRA even if it did succeed, as money is not the source of the NRA's power.  It is voters who give the NRA their power.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 10, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /———/ OK. I corrected the typo. Now answer my question.
> 1. Common sense gun laws is code for ban and confiscation.
> 2. Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.
> We eagerly  await your misinformed response.


You waited too long. I don't feel like answering your question now. Have a nice day.


----------



## Briss (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> You waited too long. I don't feel like answering your question now. Have a nice day.


Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 10, 2022)

Briss said:


> Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.


Define the true origin of the 2nd Amendment and tell us how it relates to today's gun culture. Answer my question and I'll answer yours.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Define the true origin of the 2nd Amendment and tell us how it relates to today's gun culture. Answer my question and I'll answer yours.



British law….the Right of all Englishmen to be armed….


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> You waited too long. I don't feel like answering your question now. Have a nice day.


/———/ I answered immediately but you won’t answer because you can’t.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Define the true origin of the 2nd Amendment


The right of free people to keep and bear arms appears to have originated in the Germanic tribes of the pre-Roman Iron age.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> and tell us how it relates to today's gun culture.


It prevents you from violating people's civil liberties.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> You waited too long. I don't feel like answering your question now. Have a nice day.


If you can't define a weapon then you have no business calling to ban it.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> British law….the Right of all Englishmen to be armed….


The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes appear to have brought the right with them to England when they invaded.


----------



## Briss (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Define the true origin of the 2nd Amendment and tell us how it relates to today's gun culture. Answer my question and I'll answer yours.


Oh I'm not into hanging my hat on any legal formality.  As far as I'm concerned, my right to defend my home against an invader is unquestionable and not up for argument.  Some would rather I duke it out with a criminal or two, but that would make me a victim of their hysterical logic, and that would be foolish of me.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Define the true origin of the 2nd Amendment...


The entire bill of rights, including the 2nd amendment, originates from a deal made between the federalists and anti-federalists to get the constitution ratified, with the promise of certain changes (the bill of rights ) to be added immediately after,.
OK - your turn.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 10, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> The entire bill of rights, including the 2nd amendment, originates from a deal made between the federalists and anti-federalists to get the constitution ratified, with the promise of certain changes (the bill of rights ) to be added immediately after,.
> OK - your turn.


This is the best answer I've seen so far.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> This is the best answer I've seen so far.


OK - your turn.
Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 10, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> The right of free people to keep and bear arms appears to have originated in the Germanic tribes of the pre-Roman Iron age.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle with a large capacity magazine. The bullets leave large holes in the body when they exit. That is why the children at that school in Uvalde, Texas couldn't be recognized. Their bodies were blown to pieces.
Did you hear Matthew McCounahay talking about the little girl who could only be identified by her green Converse shoes?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 10, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> OK - your turn.
> Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.


Please see answer above.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> An AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle with a large capacity magazine.


This is not a valid definition of "assault rifle", and does not demonstrate how an AR15 qualifies as such.
You can try again if you like.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> An AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle


OK up to this point.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> with a large capacity magazine.


Not exactly.  Like other rifles that accept detachable magazines, it will accept detachable magazines of any size, including detachable magazines that only carry five rounds.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> The bullets leave large holes in the body when they exit. That is why the children at that school in Uvalde, Texas couldn't be recognized. Their bodies were blown to pieces.


Such wounds are typical of all long guns (with the appropriate ammo anyway).




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Did you hear Matthew McCounahay talking about the little girl who could only be identified by her green Converse shoes?


No.

I don't know who that person is, and I am not paying much attention to this incident.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> This is not a valid definition of "assault rifle", and does not demonstrate how an AR15 qualifies as such.
> You can try again if you like.


No, my definition is good enough.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> OK up to this point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's too bad you're not paying attention to this "incident". I think anyone who cares about this country and the children of this country, would be paying close attention to this horrific tragedy.
But, some people only care about children when they are still in the womb. Once they are out of the womb, they are on their own.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> No, my definition is good enough.


/———/ No it’s not. Now accurately define an AR15 and why you think it’s an assault rifle.
Then list manufacturers who make “assault rifles.”
Then list military that issues “assault rifles” like the AR15.
Then link to the government classification of an “assault rifle.”
We’ll wait while you gather your notes.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's too bad you're not paying attention to this "incident". I think anyone who cares about this country and the children of this country, would be paying close attention to this horrific tragedy.
> But, some people only care about children when they are still in the womb. Once they are out of the womb, they are on their own.


/——/ I agree, teachers should be armed and crazy people should be put in the loonie bin.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> No, my definition is good enough.


You defined an AR-15.  You didn't define "assault rifle" which is what you were asked.

And your definition of AR-15 was lacking.  An AR-15 does not have to have a large magazine attached to it.

Any gun that accepts detachable magazines, can accept detachable magazines of any size, large or small.

Rounds that are fired from an AR-15 are no deadlier than rounds that are fired from any other long gun.

If anything the AR-15 is underpowered in the damage that it does, when compared to many other long guns.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> No, my definition is good enough.



Many weapons can leave "large holes", doesn't make them an "assault rifle".

Many weapons have "a large capacity magazine", doesn't make them an "assault rifle".


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /———/ No it’s not. Now accurately define an AR15 and why you think it’s an assault rifle.
> Then list manufacturers who make “assault rifles.”
> Then list military use issues “assault rifles” like the AR15.
> Then link to the government classification of an “assault rifle.”
> We’ll wait while you gather your notes.


Hold your breath while I gather my notes. Thank you.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Hold your breath while I gather my notes. Thank you.


Stupid idiot you did not define an assault weapon.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> You defined an AR-15.  You didn't define "assault rifle" which is what you were asked.
> 
> And your definition of AR-15 was lacking.  An AR-15 does not have to have a large magazine attached to it.
> 
> ...


The AR-15 is "underpowered"? Wow! Too bad we can't ask any of the mass shooting victims how "underpowered" they are. Those victims are DEAD.
So, I guess the AR-15 was powerful enough.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Stupid idiot you did not define an assault weapon.


*HOLD YOUR BREATH WHILE I GATHER MY NOTES. Stupid idiot.*


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Many weapons can leave "large holes", doesn't make them an "assault rifle".
> 
> Many weapons have "a large capacity magazine", doesn't make them an "assault rifle".


It's close enough.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's close enough.



Your definition said nothing unique about rifles, let alone "assault" rifles.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Your definition said nothing unique about rifles, let alone "assault" rifles.


*HOLD YOUR BREATH UNTIL I FIND A NEW DEFINITION FOR YOU. *


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> *HOLD YOUR BREATH UNTIL I FIND A NEW DEFINITION FOR YOU. *



I'll be waiting and laughing at you.

Take your time.

Pull your thoughts together.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I'll be waiting and laughing at you.
> 
> Take your time.
> 
> Pull your thoughts together.


Thank you. I will take my time. I might get back to you sometime next year. So---hold your breath until then.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you. I will take my time. I might get back to you sometime next year. So---hold your breath until then.



Take your time.
Ask an adult.
Do some reading.
Educate yourself.
No hurry.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you. I will take my time. I might get back to you sometime next year. So---hold your breath until then.


LOL you are a JOKE you can't describe an assault weapon but want us to ban them.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL you are a JOKE you can't describe an assault weapon but want us to ban them.


Why do I get the feeling of 3 posters here wanting to hump my leg? It's like you, Toddswhatshisname and Open (Mouth) Bolt are all seeking my attention.
Why do dogs hump on the legs of human beings? Is it because they want you to pat their heads? Are they horny?
RetiredGySgt, why do dogs hump on people's legs?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> No, my definition is good enough.


Your definition has no basis in fact.
Why doesn't this bother you?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

M 14 Shooter, Are you another leg humper? Oh no. I have 4. Four leg humpers.
I'm not going to be able to walk. :-/


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Why do I get the feeling of 3 posters here wanting to hump my leg? It's like you, Toddswhatshisname and Open (Mouth) Bolt are all seeking my attention.
> Why do dogs hump on the legs of human beings? Is it because they want you to pat their heads? Are they horny?
> RetiredGySgt, why do dogs hump on people's legs?


you made a claim and now can not define what that claim entails pretty simple concept I think even a 7 year old would understand.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> M 14 Shooter, Are you another leg humper? Oh no. I have 4. Four leg humpers.
> I'm not going to be able to walk. :-/


Silly me for thinking you were willing and able to have a rational, reasoned, fact-based conversation about the issue.
But, thank you for proving otherwise.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> you made a claim and now can not define what that claim entails pretty simple concept I think even a 7 year old would understand.


A humping dog would understand too.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> A humping dog would understand too.


LOL you cant articulate your demand and instead resort to childish insults to cover your glaring failure.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Silly me for thinking you were willing and able to have a rational, reasoned, fact-based conversation about the issue.
> But, thank you for proving otherwise.


Yes, silly you. Took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jun 11, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL you cant articulate your demand and instead resort to childish insults to cover your glaring failure.


Trolls are like that.
Fortunately, we have an ignore function.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL you cant articulate your demand and instead resort to childish insults to cover your glaring failure.


Please. My right leg is getting tired. Can you switch to the left leg?
Thank you.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Trolls are like that.
> Fortunately, we have an ignore function.


Yes, please put me on IGNORE. My legs are raw. Leg humper.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Please. My right leg is getting tired. Can you switch to the left leg?
> Thank you.



Are we the only humping you get lately?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Are we the only humping you get lately?


LOL! You are hilarious. The way you guys are going at it, I don't need any more.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> LOL! You are hilarious. The way you guys are going at it, I don't need any more.



Lucky for you.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

This thread has went downhill, folks. I'm tired of it. But, before I go I want to honor the children who died at Robb Elementary school on May 24, 2022. I wish I could post their pictures. But, I can only post their names and ages.
For them I will continue to speak out against NRA ownership of politicians and citizen ownership of semi-automatic weapons that are used for killing large numbers of human beings.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> This thread has went downhill, folks. I'm tired of it. But, before I go I want to honor the children who died at Robb Elementary school on May 24, 2022. I wish I could post their pictures. But, I can only post their names and ages.
> For them I will continue to speak out against NRA ownership of politicians and citizen ownership of semi-automatic weapons that are used for killing large numbers of human beings.



Good luck with your outside humping.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Makenna Lee Elrod, 10
Layla Salazar, 11
Nevaeh Bravo, 10
Marando Mathis, 11
Jose Manuel FloresJr, 10
Xavier Lopez, 10
Tess Marie Mata, 10
Rogelio Torres, 10
Elihna "Ellie" Amyah Garcia, 9
Elihna A Torres, 10
Annabel Guadalupe Rodriquez, 10
Jackie Cazares, 9
Uziyah Garcia
Jaycee Caemelo Luevanos, 10
Maite Yuleana Rodriquez, 10
Jailal Nicole Silguero, 10
Amerie Jo Garza, 10
Alexandria "Lexi" Aniyah Rubio, 10
Alithia Ramirez, 10

These are the 19 children who were slaughtered at Robb Elementary School on May 24, 2022.
Maite Yuleana Rodriquez is the one who was identified by her green Converse tennis shoes. Her body was blown to smitterines, along with the bodies of all the other children.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

The 2 teachers who were murdered that day were:
Mrs. Irma Garcia, 48
M's. Eva Mireles, 44

So heartbreaking. I won't be posting in this thread anymore. 
I've said all I want to say here.


----------



## Hellbilly (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> The 2 teachers who were murdered that day were:
> Mrs. Irma Garcia, 48
> M's. Eva Mireles, 44



This^^^


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 11, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> This^^^


Thank you for sharing this. He was one of the best comedians ever. He was funny, but spoke the truth.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> The 2 teachers who were murdered that day were:
> Mrs. Irma Garcia, 48
> M's. Eva Mireles, 44
> 
> ...


Of course you wont you can not support your ignorant claim.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> The AR-15 is "underpowered"? Wow!


Yes.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Too bad we can't ask any of the mass shooting victims how "underpowered" they are. Those victims are DEAD.


We don't need to ask.  We already know that it is underpowered.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> So, I guess the AR-15 was powerful enough.


Not really.  Using them to hunt deer would be inhumane due to the lack of adequate power.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Why do I get the feeling of 3 posters here wanting to hump my leg?


When you propose violating people's civil liberties for no reason, people who value civil liberties are likely to respond and object.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's like you, Toddswhatshisname and Open (Mouth) Bolt are all seeking my attention.


Didn't you recently complain about name-calling on one of these threads?


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

Circe said:


> Naaaaaaaah, he's wrong: their stories are not at all the same. Peyton Gendron and Salvador Ramos were so young they didn't have a history that warned anyone actionably.
> 
> The Cruz thing before the Parkville shooting WAS problematic; but I have been most interested in Jared Loughner. He was so insane that really, when arrested, he couldn't even talk plain. He had been crashing for months and his family simply didn't know what it was or what to do. That they let him keep a gun after all those visits by police and death threats ---- well, darn. Something very wrong there. Needs work.
> 
> I'd like to see boys not able to buy guns until at least age 21. By then, the society and family will usually know if he's gone crazy with schizophrenia and maybe somebody would have the sense to intervene before he does a Batman Killer performance. Boys would build up some history, either as sane members of society ----- or murderous whack jobs. Maybe some of these sprees would be prevented. Maybe.



Your excuse for their well-known problems is silly since they were spelled out in the article.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Quoting the daily fail again, oh please! The violence can be threatened on both sides.



You need to do better than that since using source fallacies doesn't support you.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A story from 2004 from another dubious source.. OMG we must be all pissing ourselve in terror by now... Quick get out the shotguns Dierdre! ROFL!



You are making it clear you have no valid counterpoints to make just roll in the source fallacies.

Unimpressive.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> More complete drivel because you have no idea who starts the violence. Just another pathetic attempt to fear-monger.



Another counterpoint free reply, do you have any cogent arguments to sell?


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes...the burglar decided not to beat or torture the victim.....the entire choice left to the criminal...
> 
> Meanwhile....the other 59%...
> 
> ...



Vagabond doesn't care as he has an ideology to defend no matter what.

It is irrational to blame the victims in their own homes when they get attacked by people who breaks into the homes.

I bet Vagabond would pee heavily if two criminals with guns in their hands smash down his front door.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Makenna Lee Elrod, 10
> Layla Salazar, 11
> Nevaeh Bravo, 10
> Marando Mathis, 11
> ...



Now you resort to emotionalism while you ignore the part about the numerous failures from the state and federal government officials who had plenty of reasons to deny the mass killers ability to buy firearms as soon as he turned 18 and the local police should have run in there to stop him as soon as they got there.

The School District Failed
The State failed
The Federal government failed
The Local police force failed.

You ignored all this because you are not interested in fixing the problem.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> I bet Vagabond would pee heavily if two criminals with guns in their hands smash down his front door.


Well, I would be immensly surprised if that ever happened for sure, as my front door is one of those I mentioned earlier that has become more and more commonplce over here in the UK; one that has a three point locking system and made of composite materials and all but immune to police battering rams. If they tried to shoot out the lock, it would jam in locked position and the hinges are similarly protected.


Sunsettommy said:


> Vagabond doesn't care as he has an ideology to defend no matter what.


I'm not defending an ideology, that's what you are doing. 

As I've said countless times, I used to own guns and belonged to two shooting clubs; in my time I've fired every calibre from .22 up to a 120mm Chieftan tank gun. I'm not against gun ownership, I just find the American ideology behinf a system of giving out guns like confetti to anyone who wants one, a little rash and somewhat deranged.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> It is irrational to blame the victims in their own homes when they get attacked by people who breaks into the homes.


Perhaps you need to read my posts more carefully, as nowhere did I ever blame the victims. Oh, the correct phraseology should be, "..,by people who break into their homes." No, don't thank me, happy to help.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, I would be immensly surprised if that ever happened for sure, as my front door is one of those I mentioned earlier that has become more and more commonplce over here in the UK; one that has a three point locking system and made of composite materials and all but immune to police battering rams. If they tried to shoot out the lock, it would jam in locked position and the hinges are similarly protected.
> 
> I'm not defending an ideology, that's what you are doing.
> 
> As I've said countless times, I used to own guns and belonged to two shooting clubs; in my time I've fired every calibre from .22 up to a 120mm Chieftan tank gun. I'm not against gun ownership, I just find the American ideology behinf a system of giving out guns like confetti to anyone who wants one, a little rash and somewhat deranged.



Meanwhile you keep ignoring the failures on the part of the government who allow mentally unstable people who show that they are an imminent threat to the public.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> Meanwhile you keep ignoring the failures on the part of the government who allow mentally unstable people who show that they are an imminent threat to the public.


I suspect you are PUI as the above statement is nonsensical rambling.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Jun 14, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I suspect you are PUI as the above statement is nonsensical rambling.



Actually, several times I made a post showing the government failures backed by sourced evidence.

Flopping Aces

The signs were there. They’re almost always there. No one was paying attention.​Posted by DrJohn on 27 May, 2022 

Excerpt:

Tucson. Parkland. Buffalo. Uvalde.

Jared Loughner. Nikolas Cruz. Peyton Gendron. Salvador Ramos.

Their stories are all the same.

They committed terrible crimes exacting unimaginable pain and loss. All were preventable had someone taken their job seriously.

Jared Loughner, who shot Gabby Giffords, was well known to Tucson police. He made numerous death threats. The cops were called to his house numerous times. He purchased a Glock after he made several death threats. They let him keep the weapon.

Nikolas Cruz posted “Im going to be a professional school shooter” on YouTube.  The FBI was tipped off.



> A person close to Cruz warned the FBI last month that he had a “desire to kill people” and could carry out a school shooting, the FBI admitted on Friday. The agency failed to act on the tip. The FBI was also warned about Cruz after he posted on YouTube saying he was going to become a “professional school shooter.” The agency said they couldn’t identify the user who made the threat, despite Cruz posting under his own name.



LINK


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 14, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> When you learn how to spell, maybe I'll answer your questions. Sensnse. Eargly.
> What was that Trump said? "I love my uneducated voters?"


/——-/ When are you going to answer my question instead of hiding behind a typo I already corrected.  Well, punk?


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I love how you guys go to such extemes to try to make death not a death that counts.


Pointing out that you are wrong is not going to extremes.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> It has GOT to be exhausting finding loopholes to save your hobby.


Our hobby is not in danger.  We merely explain to you why you are wrong as a courtesy.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> You clearly have an idea of how fucked up you are being with regards to guns or you wouldn't go to so much effort, which is good to know that you guys aren't total psychopaths, but you should try once in a while to act like human life has SOME meaning to you.


Pointing out that you are wrong is hardly "fucked up".  Neither does it requires any effort.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I am getting tired of you guys saying that.


Too bad.  It is fair criticism.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> At least we want to see SOMETHING DONE.  You seem to just shrug your shoulders and walk on.
> How is it that I'M the one who doesn't care???


If progressives want to engage in virtue signaling to show the world how much they CARE, I suggest that they burn down their own homes.

But no insurance fraud.  Come clean to the authorities that you are doing it voluntarily to make a statement showing how much you CARE.

Just think how impressed the world will be when they see that you CARE so much that you willingly burned down your own homes.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> because 20 little kids were so mangled that some couldn't be identified visually.


Why does it matter to you which sort of weapon is used to mangle kids?




Cardinal Carminative said:


> The facts are:  America has more guns per capita than any other developed nation on earth and we are the ONLY developed nation that has as many mass shootings and schoolhouse slaughters as we do.
> YOU do the math.


The two stats that you listed here have no relation to each other.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Would you be willing to pay a surcharge on all gun and ammo purchases to support improved mental healthcare?


Of course not.

But I would be willing to tax progressive speech to cover it.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Well, it possibly indicates you think you have made a significant point but it is more telling that you don't really seem to understand statistics.  It's not surprising that some people will have more than the per capita average.  That's kind of how it all works.


Statistics show that gun availability has little impact on homicide rates.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I think you are missing the larger point.  You are ONE DATA POINT.  But there are MILLIONS of Americans like you.  You have made sure there is a SEA of guns in our society.  And not all other people are going to be as good about guarding their guns as you!  That means a few evil-doers will have an EASIER time of getting ahold of a stolen gun to do evil with.  That's the PROBABILITY ANGLE.  If you swamp a nation with guns and you have millions of people of varying levels of responsibility you *automatically increase the probability of bad things happening with those guns*.
> I know this is a subtle point but some day a gun enthusiast will come on this forum and have at least a nodding acquaintance with probability to see that that is part of the problem.
> As such YOU are part of the problem.


There is no problem.

"Bad things" are bad regardless of whether a gun is involved.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Can I just say your rhetoric is so OVER-THE-TOP you sound like the world's biggest drama queen.  You deserve an actor for chewing up so much scenery with you hyperbolic BS.


Nonsense.  He is completely correct.  There is no point in reasoning with the left.  They need to be defeated at the ballot box.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> You guys should go off and start your own country where everyone walks around settling scores with their guns.  The rest of us would just like to go to our jobs, go to the theater, go to the grocery store without YOU LOT running around like unhinged psychos who strangely have access to deadly weaponry.
> You know life doesn't HAVE to be a constant gun-battle.  That's YOUR FANTASY.  Not ours.
> YOU are part of the problem.  YOUR rhetoric, YOUR bizarre fears, YOU made this country into a gun-swamped pit full of paranoid loons.


There is no problem.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> THIS ISN'T HOW THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD LIVES.


What rest of the free world?  Most of the rest of the world isn't free.

If you mean the swath of countries from Finland to Switzerland where there is still freedom, those people do in fact live like that.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 20, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> -sigh-  Will you guys ever get over your comparison of guns with cars?  *AT LEAST I HAVE TO REGISTER MY CAR.*


There is no requirement that you register your car unless you plan to drive it in public.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> LOL.  There's no developed first would country with the levels of shootings and gun homicides of the USA.
> We are miles above anyone else.


So what?  Murder victims would be just as dead if they were killed with some other kind of weapon.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> What kind of hellhole do you live in?
> Seriously.  If you live in such a DANGEROUS part of America....*f'in MOVE!*


Some people might not be wealthy enough to pack up and move.

More importantly, people have the right to defend themselves if they choose to do so.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I have lived literally all over this country.  The Midwest (where I was born), the Northeast where I worked for years, the Deep South where I spent years in my first postdoc and industry jobs, SoCal and the PNW and honestly I've NEVER lived in the kind of terror you lot seem to exist in every single day.


No one here has said anything about living in terror.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I have to have extensive testing in order to get the right to drive one.


Not if you only plan to drive on private property.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> You guys live in abject terror of just waking up in the morning.  Hence you need guns all around all the time.
> Non-stop abject terror.
> Shadows move?  You jump.


Nonsense.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Lived there for 10 years in a town literally OVERRUN with undocumented aliens.  Never had need of a gun.
> Not once.


Need is irrelevant.  People have guns because they choose to have guns.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> You guys have turned America into a nation loaded with guns because all you do is live in abject terror of everyone and everything.
> Why is that?


That is incorrect.  We turned America into a nation loaded with guns, because guns are good to have.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> Lie?  You think I'm lying that your car needs registration in the US and you have to take an exam to get your license?


I prefer to say that you are completely incorrect in all respects.

The term "lie" implies an intent to deceive, and I think that you are merely mistaken.




Cardinal Carminative said:


> I'M NOT THE ONE here buying a gun to defend myself because I'm terrified all the time.


That isn't the reason why anyone else buys guns either.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 20, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) When politicians accept donations from the NRA, that isn't a 1st Amendment right. That is bribery.


Wrong.  The First Amendment protects such donations.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) "Shall not be infringed" was written at a much different time. We are living in a different world now, with totally different kinds of weapons.


Freedom is just as important today as it was in the past.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> It is not infringing on anyone's right to ban assault rifles.


Yes it is.  It is a crime against the American people.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> And of course cars were invented to be deadly weapons, just like guns. That is their sole purpose, correct?


Does the purpose of a car make people killed in car accidents any less dead?




Ms. Turquoise said:


> As for the drunk driving statistics, nobody has figured out a way to stop people from driving drunk yet. Ditto for speeding and irresponsible driving.


The only way that anyone can come up with to prevent school massacres is to defend schools with guns.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> We do have a way to slow down mass shootings, though. Refer to my OP.


Your OP did not propose any way to slow down mass shootings.  All you did was propose violating people's civil liberties for no reason.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) Donations from the organizations you cited don't lead to mass shootings. So, they are OK.


Donations from the NRA do not lead to mass shootings either.

And if you were to succeed in your efforts to abolish the First Amendment, donations from leftist groups would be outlawed as well.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> 2) The way to get around "shall not be infringed" is make a law banning assault rifles.
> See how easy that is.


Wrong.  "Violating our civil liberties" does not "get around those civil liberties."

It merely makes you a criminal.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> What else is a firearm for, if not to kill people?


Hunting guns are for killing game animals.

Defensive guns are for protection and saving lives.

Sport guns are for competition.

Gun collections are there merely to be possessed and enjoyed.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> There is nothing I need to demonstrate.


It's more that there is nothing that you _can_ demonstrate, since you are completely wrong on all counts.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> People have taken the 2nd Amendment and twisted it to mean what they want it to mean.


Only you and the left have done such a thing.  And shame on you for doing it.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> I believe the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment was for people to form militias to protect themselves during colonial times, from the British, hostile Native Americans, etc. In those days they didn't really have a standing Army, so the citizens had to fend for themselves.


Wrong.  They could have had a standing army had they wanted to have one.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> So, they needed to be armed and able to form militias at all times. That was what the 2nd Amendment was created for.


Wrong.  It was created to prevent you from disarming people.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> I heard that at one time, not so long ago, there was a ban on assault rifles.


You heard wrong.  It was not a ban on assault rifles, but rather a ban on harmless hunting rifles like the AR-15.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> But, somehow the ban was lifted. That was a big mistake.


No it wasn't.  Ending a crime against the American people is never a mistake.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 20, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> It's called PROBABILITIES.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


/———/ “sigh-  Will you guys ever get over your comparison of guns with cars?  *AT LEAST I HAVE TO REGISTER MY CAR.”*

sigh- owning a gun is a RIGHT, owning a car is a privilege if you want to drive it on public roads.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 21, 2022)

Sunsettommy said:


> Actually, several times I made a post showing the government failures backed by sourced evidence.
> 
> Flopping Aces
> 
> ...


In the UK, if you want a firearm, one hurdle you have to overcome in the licencing process, is to make available all your medical records, including mental health. Another, is that you need people of good character to vouch for your suitabilty to own firearms. If the police firearms officer has any doubts, they can refuse your application. That's how gun control works in the UK. Yes, no system is perfect and every decade or so someone slips through the net, but these exceptions prove the rule.

In the US, sadly your systems are weak and it is ridiculouly easy to get a firearm; even your background checking system is outdated and inaccurate. If you want to blame your government, look at those in it who consistantly block or sabotage any forms of gun control. They are the ones to blame for any failures in your law enforcement.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> In the UK, if you want a firearm, one hurdle you have to overcome in the licencing process, is to make available all your medical records, including mental health. Another, is that you need people of good character to vouch for your suitabilty to own firearms. If the police firearms officer has any doubts, they can refuse your application. That's how gun control works in the UK. Yes, no system is perfect and every decade or so someone slips through the net, but these exceptions prove the rule.
> 
> In the US, sadly your systems are weak and it is ridiculouly easy to get a firearm; even your background checking system is outdated and inaccurate. If you want to blame your government, look at those in it who consistantly block or sabotage any forms of gun control. They are the ones to blame for any failures in your law enforcement.



And yet those processes didn’t stop the last two mass public shooters in Britain, at Cumbria and Plymouth……

Mass public shooters plan their attacks….they also are planning to murder people so getting guns isn’t an Issue when you have guns available….as you keep telling us ………since gun clubs in Britain exist and farms around Britain also have guns…….

Now, with more guns entering Britain illegally, gun access for low life’s is increasing…..


Our system works fine…where it fails is where it failed in Britain…..the government didn’t do its job…….the mass public shooters that we have could have been kept from legally getting their guns if the local schools and police had simply had the killers arrested or committed…they didn’t.

Meanwhile, over 330 million Americans, 600 million guns in private hands, over 20 million people who can legally carry guns in public and about 53 million Americans with some sort of mental health issues….

How many used guns to commit mass public shootings in 2021?

6

Total number of deaths?

43

Deer kill 200 people a year

Lawn mowers kill 90-100

ladders kill 300 people a year….

You do not deny millions of people a Constituionally protected Right based on numbers like that……

The numbersyou always ignore?

The 1.1 million Americans who use their legal guns to save lives each year…..according to the Centers for Disease Control…1.5 million according to the Department of Justice…..or 2.5 million according to the most accurate work on the subject by Gary Kleck….


The 15 million innocent men, women and children murdered by their governments in Europe….…..after they surrendered their guns……

More people murdered in 6 years than by all those murdered by American criminals with guns……ever………and the majority of people murdered in America are criminals murdered by other criminals……

The 15 million murdered in Europe?   Innocent human beings……


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> In the UK, if you want a firearm, one hurdle you have to overcome in the licencing process, is to make available all your medical records, including mental health. Another, is that you need people of good character to vouch for your suitabilty to own firearms. If the police firearms officer has any doubts, they can refuse your application. That's how gun control works in the UK. Yes, no system is perfect and every decade or so someone slips through the net, but these exceptions prove the rule.
> 
> In the US, sadly your systems are weak and it is ridiculouly easy to get a firearm; even your background checking system is outdated and inaccurate. If you want to blame your government, look at those in it who consistantly block or sabotage any forms of gun control. They are the ones to blame for any failures in your law enforcement.


/----/ We have a 2nd amendment because men in red coats tried to control our lives and property. There is a reason, the King wanted to disarm his subjects.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 21, 2022)

Almost everything i carry in my pockets on a daily basis is illegal in the UK.

This little utility knife is illegal because it has a locking blade.





This handy little multitool that I use several times a day is illegal to carry in the UK because it has not one but 3  locking blades  (THE HORROR)




 Brits enjoy being treated like children


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 22, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Almost everything i carry in my pockets on a daily basis is illegal in the UK.
> 
> This little utility knife is illegal because it has a locking blade.
> 
> ...


I have both of those, and a Swiss Army knife. They are all easy to buy and none of them are "illegal".


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 22, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And yet those processes didn’t stop the last two mass public shooters in Britain, at Cumbria and Plymouth……
> 
> Mass public shooters plan their attacks….they also are planning to murder people so getting guns isn’t an Issue when you have guns available….as you keep telling us ………since gun clubs in Britain exist and farms around Britain also have guns…….
> 
> ...


Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 22, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras.


I do not share the opinion that facts and reality are BS.

Did you ever say whether or not people in the UK were allowed to have a lever-action .30-30?


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 22, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.


/——/ Please post proof they are BS statistics. You won’t because you can’t.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 22, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have both of those, and a Swiss Army knife. They are all easy to buy and none of them are "illegal".


All my pocket knives and the muti-tool I carry on my belt have locking blades

any knife of any size with a locking blade is illegal in your country

You don;t even know your own laws and you want to tell other people what laws they should have to live under


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 22, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.




Yes...the 18 studies say you are wrong, so you ignore them...got it.

The Centers for Disease Control, the Department of Justice....they do research all the time...but when it comes to showing that guns are used to save lives, all of a sudden they don't count.....got it.


Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, as expected, the torrent of cut and paste BS you produce every time someone challenges your gun crazy mantras. Oh and I don't ignore those numbers, I dismiss them as they are estimates based on small sample telephone polls.




Yeah....you dismiss them, all 18 studies....because they disagree with you...they disagree with this guy too...but he isn't you, and he takes research seriously...

For example....the most thorough look at gun self defense.....



*What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear- cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something*

*I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. Maybe Franklin Zimring and Philip Cook can help me find fault with the Kleck and Gertz research,** but for now, I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research.*

*Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence. The National Crime Victim Survey does not directly contravene this latest survey, nor do the Mauser and Hart studies.
------*
*Nonetheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear. I cannot further debate it.
There is no one part of the early section of their paper with which I disagree.
------
The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the au- thors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologi- cally. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.*



			https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?httpsredir=1&article=6854&context=jclc
		


Who is Marvin Wolfgang...

*In 1964, he published The Measurement of Delinquency, which was the first study of the true impact of crime on society. Three years later, he completed The Subculture of Violence: Towards an Integrated Theory in Criminology, which focused on high rates of violence among blacks and the influence of a black subculture.

Wolfgang wrote over 30 books and 150 articles throughout his life. His most famous work, Delinquency in a Birth Cohort, was published in 1972.[4][5] This book marked the beginning of large-scale studies of crime and delinquency. It was a study of over 10,000 boys born in Philadelphia in 1945. 
----------

Wolfgang won many awards, including the Hans Von Hentig Award from the World Society of Victimology in 1988, the Edwin Sutherland Award from the American Society of Criminology in 1989, the Beccaria Gold Medal from the German, Austrian, and Swiss Society of Criminology in 1997; in 1993, the Wolfgang Criminology Award was established in his name.*






						Marvin Wolfgang - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 22, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> ...and he's off to the races again, regurgitating these BS opinion poll estimates, when in reality, no-one knows how many times these events occur, and for that matter how many of these alleged events the "defender" was actually acting illegally.


Whatever the number of defensive gun uses actually is, it is clearly a substantial number.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 22, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Both drugs and guns must be banned.


Sorry, but no.  America will not be abolishing our freedom.




Relative Ethics said:


> Table, p.6  says that gun self-defense is rare.


You are citing an organization that always lies.

The mere fact that they say it, is evidence that the opposite is true.




Relative Ethics said:


> Perhaps there are studies claiming otherwise, but they seem to contradict Common Sense.


That is incorrect.  Common sense and statistics both agree that armed self defense happens quite a bit.




Relative Ethics said:


> Sad but true.


Not true at all.  Guns do not cause homicides.




Relative Ethics said:


> I know the Second Amendment -- I believe it is outdated and needs to be repealed.


Freedom and civil liberties will never be outdated.

America will never abolish freedom and civil liberties.




Relative Ethics said:


> Democrats are right about guns


That is incorrect.  Democrats are wrong to violate people's civil liberties for no reason.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 22, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Whatever the number of defensive gun uses actually is, it is clearly a substantial number.


Even if you use the lowest range of the estimates the number of DGUs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a gun.


----------



## ding (Jun 23, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Or install single point entry at schools with an armed guard.


----------



## Baron Von Murderpaws (Jun 23, 2022)

Two Ways to Help Stop Mass Shootings​

1. Build military "mini bases" every mile along the border.
2. Heavily arm these bases with landmines, armed drones, and automatic guns/cannons pointed at the border that kills anything that moves.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jun 23, 2022)

ding said:


> Or install single point entry at schools with an armed guard.


Having one point of entry is a BAD idea. No public building is made that way. You have to think about how to escape in case of fire.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 23, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Having one point of entry is a BAD idea. No public building is made that way. You have to think about how to escape in case of fire.


Entry and escape are not the same thing.  A building can have one entrance and many exits.


----------



## ding (Jun 23, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Having one point of entry is a BAD idea. No public building is made that way. You have to think about how to escape in case of fire.


They have can have multiple exists that open from the inside into secure fenced areas.  This isn't that difficult of a problem to solve.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Jun 23, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> The burglary, violent or not, is always initiated by the burglar.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that burglars are responsible for burglaries is self evident.


*Savages Who Had No Respect for Property Deserved to Become Property*

The Ministry of Truth hereby warns you that "burglar" is hate speech.  From now on, you and everybody else on our Netrix must use "undocumented resident."  

Why are you so against sharing your property with our voters?  Think of it as an entitlement.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Jun 23, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /------/ 1. Common sensnse gun laws is code for ban and confiscation.
> 2. Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.
> we eargly await your misinformed response.
> View attachment 654899


*Plug a Thug.  Dirtnaps for Dirtbags.*

The very name is deceptive, so we shouldn't be calling it an "assault rifle."  Assault is a crime, so that weapon should be called a "counter-assault rifle."  That's what it does, and it does it best.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 25, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> I do not share the opinion that facts and reality are BS.


Good for you. Facts and reality are not BS, just the cut/paste rubbish that 2aguy keeps repeating that bears little, if any resemblance to either facts or reality.


Open Bolt said:


> Did you ever say whether or not people in the UK were allowed to have a lever-action .30-30?


There's no reason for any licenced gun owner not to buy one if they really want one, prices range from £250.00 to £2000.00 in the UK


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Good for you. Facts and reality are not BS, just the cut/paste rubbish that 2aguy keeps repeating that bears little, if any resemblance to either facts or reality.
> 
> There's no reason for any licenced gun owner not to buy one if they really want one, prices range from £250.00 to £2000.00 in the UK


Ya I mean citing ACTUAL studies and listing facts is sooooo wrong when it opposes the lefts agenda.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 25, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——/ Please post proof they are BS statistics. You won’t because you can’t.


Ever heard the phrase, "there are lies, damned, lies and statistics? As I've said before the crap 2aguy posts again and again are estimates, based on limited sample opinion polls, basically meaningless. Statistics can be and are manipulated to promote any agenda in any event.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ever heard the phrase, "there are lies, damned, lies and statistics? As I've said before the crap 2aguy posts again and again are estimates, based on limited sample opinion polls, basically meaningless. Statistics can be and are manipulated to promote any agenda in any event.


sure thing your studies are good but ours arent sure thing moron.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> All my pocket knives and the muti-tool I carry on my belt have locking blades
> 
> any knife of any size with a locking blade is illegal in your country
> 
> You don;t even know your own laws and you want to tell other people what laws they should have to live under


No it isn't. You can buy and own all the above, and carry them from a to b if you have a good reason to do so. And I'm not telling anyone what laws they should have to live under, merely pointing out that your currrent system is regarded as foolish by most of the rest of the world.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No it isn't. You can buy and own all the above, and carry them from a to b if you have a good reason to do so. And I'm not telling anyone what laws they should have to live under, merely pointing out that your currrent system is regarded as foolish by most of the rest of the world.


we dont care what you pansy subjects think we are free and intend to stay so.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No it isn't. You can buy and own all the above, and carry them from a to b if you have a good reason to do so. And I'm not telling anyone what laws they should have to live under, merely pointing out that your currrent system is regarded as foolish by most of the rest of the world.


And again who defines what "good reason " is ?

Not you.

And the rest of the world controls simple pocket knives like your masters do?

I highly doubt that

But then again you can also be arrested for owning the "wrong" books.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Good for you. Facts and reality are not BS, just the cut/paste rubbish that 2aguy keeps repeating that bears little, if any resemblance to either facts or reality.


Everything that 2aguy posts is entirely correct and factual.




Vagabond63 said:


> There's no reason for any licenced gun owner not to buy one if they really want one, prices range from £250.00 to £2000.00 in the UK


So lever-action rifles are allowed for civilian ownership in the UK?




Vagabond63 said:


> your currrent system is regarded as foolish by most of the rest of the world.


The rest of the world needs to change and be like us.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 26, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Everything that @2aguy posts is entirely correct and factual.


If you say so. Bet you voted for Trump too.


Open Bolt said:


> So lever-action rifles are allowed for civilian ownership in the UK?


What's this fixation on lever action rifles?


Open Bolt said:


> The rest of the world needs to change and be like us.


Well, your gun industry is financing and supplying most of the repressive and authoritarian states in the world, so I suspect it's only a matter of time before America becomes a repressive and authoritarian state too, if they have their way.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 26, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And again who defines what "good reason " is ?
> 
> Not you.
> 
> ...


No, initially, the police make a determination, but ultimately, a jury of my peers. Yes, I agree, you can be arrested for possessing child pornography books, I see no problems there.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 26, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> we dont care what you pansy subjects think we are free and intend to stay so.


In reality you are manipulated by those in control of you to believe that you are "free".


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jun 26, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No it isn't. You can buy and own all the above, and carry them from a to b if you have a good reason to do so. And I'm not telling anyone what laws they should have to live under, merely pointing out that your currrent system is regarded as foolish by most of the rest of the world.



Hey didn't that Norway shooter have a gun? Are guns legal in Norway?

Also, did any American ask you what you think of us?

Americans. How many of you give one rat's behind what Vagabond thinks of us? I'll start. I do not.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 26, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No, initially, the police make a determination, but ultimately, a jury of my peers. Yes, I agree, you can be arrested for possessing child pornography books, I see no problems there.


Yeah you can be arrested for owning the Anarchist's Cookbook too.




There is no analogy between that and child pornography.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 26, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> If you say so. Bet you voted for Trump too.


Of course.  He protects us from progressives.




Vagabond63 said:


> What's this fixation on lever action rifles?


They offer reasonably rapid repeat shots which makes them useful for self defense.  At least assuming a reasonable magazine capacity.

I'm trying to figure out whether the UK denies civilian access to *any* gun that is useful for self defense, or whether there are a few self-defense guns around the edges that some civilians are allowed to have.




Vagabond63 said:


> Well, your gun industry is financing and supplying most of the repressive and authoritarian states in the world, so I suspect it's only a matter of time before America becomes a repressive and authoritarian state too, if they have their way.


Our gun industry is not financing anyone but their shareholders.




Vagabond63 said:


> In reality you are manipulated by those in control of you to believe that you are "free".


Not at all.  We really do have the right to keep and bear arms.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 26, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Having one point of entry is a BAD idea. No public building is made that way. You have to think about how to escape in case of fire.



Entry, not exit.   All the other doors would exist but you would only enter at one point

The other doors would be locked except for sit purposes…


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /———/ OK. I corrected the typo. Now answer my question.
> 1. Common sense gun laws is code for ban and confiscation.
> 2. Define Assault Rifle and tell us how an AR15 fits that category.
> We eagerly  await your misinformed response.


Most countries have common sense gun laws and their populations have guns. This is why they experience few gun incidents. If memory serves, I think only four countries banned guns.

Definition of _assault rifle_​*: *any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic firealso *: *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire









						Definition of ASSAULT RIFLE
					

any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire; also : a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com


----------



## frigidweirdo (Jun 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*



Drop nukes on every city in the US, that'd stop school shootings too.... be more helpful than your suggestions.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Most countries have common sense gun laws and their populations have guns. This is why they experience few gun incidents. If memory serves, I think only four countries banned guns.
> 
> Definition of _assault rifle_​*: *any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic firealso *: *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire
> 
> ...


LOL the definition is a joke. Any weapon that resembles a military weapon hahahahahahahaha


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Most countries have common sense gun laws and their populations have guns. This is why they experience few gun incidents. If memory serves, I think only four countries banned guns.
> 
> Definition of _assault rifle_​*: *any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic firealso *: *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire
> 
> ...


/——-/  The civilian version of the AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle meaning one round is fired with each pull of the trigger as opposed to military versions which are fully automatic that continue to fire as long as the trigger is pulled.
Fully-automatic firearms have been heavily regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) since 1934, and the sale of automatic firearms has been effectively banned since 1986.
The AR in AR-15 is does not stand for Assault Rifle, but it’s actually AramaLite, the name of the original manufacturer. 
Assault Weapon is just a made up name by gun grabbers to demonize a legal fire arm.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Most countries have common sense gun laws and their populations have guns. This is why they experience few gun incidents. If memory serves, I think only four countries banned guns.
> 
> Definition of _assault rifle_​*: *any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic firealso *: *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire
> 
> ...


For the umpteenth time we do have gun laws.

Tell me which federal gun laws are not "common sense"

The problem is that the government and cops do not enforce the gun laws we already have


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL the definition is a joke. Any weapon that resembles a military weapon hahahahahahahaha


I like the irony because it's from an American dictionary !!! lmfao


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——-/  The civilian version of the AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle meaning one round is fired with each pull of the trigger as opposed to military versions which are fully automatic that continue to fire as long as the trigger is pulled.
> Fully-automatic firearms have been heavily regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) since 1934, and the sale of automatic firearms has been effectively banned since 1986.
> The AR in AR-15 is does not stand for Assault Rifle, but it’s actually AramaLite, the name of the original manufacturer.
> Assault Weapon is just a made up name by gun grabbers to demonize a legal fire arm.


If you read the link again, which is an American Dictionary, it states -

*a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire*

Now if you feel it is wrong, you need to email your American dictionary company and explain that they don't know the correct definition, beacuse at this moment in time across the planet, an assault rifle is a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> For the umpteenth time we do have gun laws.
> 
> Tell me which federal gun laws are not "common sense"
> 
> The problem is that the government and cops do not enforce the gun laws we already have


Wandering around shops with loaded guns. Dumb.

Not securing guns at home when not in use. Dumb.

Giving guns to people with the mentality to shoot others under the fallacy of self defence. Dumb.

Hang on....I'm just going over this yet again, that has been mentioned on here for over a year.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Wandering around shops with loaded guns. Dumb.
> 
> Not securing guns at home when not in use. Dumb.
> 
> ...


Concealed carry is not a cause of crime.  In fact people who legally carry concealed weapons are the most law abiding people in the country.

And how do you know guns aren't secured?

FYI if you lock your doors when you leave the house then your guns are secured.

We have laws that prohibit gun ownership by those people adjudicated to be mentally ill.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> If you read the link again, which is an American Dictionary, it states -
> 
> *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire*
> 
> Now if you feel it is wrong, you need to email your American dictionary company and explain that they don't know the correct definition, beacuse at this moment in time across the planet, an assault rifle is a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire.


/———/ Do you not understand what “resemble” means? Check your American dictionary. 
re·sem·ble​/rəˈzemb(ə)l/​verb

1.have qualities or features, especially those of appearance, in common with (someone or something); look or seem like:"some people resemble their dogs"


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 27, 2022)

LOL ya it LOOKS like it so it is the same, Thats some funny shit.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /———/ Do you not understand what “resemble” means? Check your American dictionary.
> re·sem·ble​/rəˈzemb(ə)l/​verb
> 
> 1.have qualities or features, especially those of appearance, in common with (someone or something); look or seem like:"some people resemble their dogs"


In the UK we have British dictionaries


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Concealed carry is not a cause of crime.  In fact people who legally carry concealed weapons are the most law abiding people in the country.
> 
> And how do you know guns aren't secured?
> 
> ...


Guns in public is dumb. If they're not a cause of crime, leave them at home.

How do people know guns aren't secured at home? Because kids shoot one another and their parents. Secured at home means in a gun cabinet bolted to the wall that was checked by the police. As you guys are frightened of burglars, leaving guns at home in the top drawer or on the kitchen table is not secure, is it.

The mentally ill tend to be the victims of crime as opposed to being the cause, which has already been covered in past posts/threads.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Guns in public is dumb. If they're not a cause of crime, leave them at home.
> 
> How do people know guns aren't secured at home? Because kids shoot one another and their parents. Secured at home means in a gun cabinet bolted to the wall that was checked by the police. As you guys are frightened of burglars, leaving guns at home in the top drawer or on the kitchen table is not secure, is it.
> 
> The mentally ill tend to be the victims of crime as opposed to being the cause, which has already been covered in past posts/threads.


Jailing people for reading a book is dumb.

And violent crime is just as likely if not more likely to occur outside of the home.

The fact (which you love to ignore) is that people who legally carry concealed weapons are the most law abiding people in the country even more so than cops and they do nothing to add to the crime and/or murder rates.

You were just whining about the mentally ill getting guns.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Jailing people for reading a book is dumb.
> 
> And violent crime is just as likely if not more likely to occur outside of the home.
> 
> ...


Jailing for reading a book is dumb, I agree.

As you've confirmed there's no need to have guns in the street.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Guns in public is dumb. If they're not a cause of crime, leave them at home.
> 
> How do people know guns aren't secured at home? Because kids shoot one another and their parents. Secured at home means in a gun cabinet bolted to the wall that was checked by the police. As you guys are frightened of burglars, leaving guns at home in the top drawer or on the kitchen table is not secure, is it.
> 
> The mentally ill tend to be the victims of crime as opposed to being the cause, which has already been covered in past posts/threads.





Captain Caveman said:


> Jailing for reading a book is dumb, I agree.
> 
> As you've confirmed there's no need to have guns in the street.


I never said any such thing.

I SAID violent crime is just as or even more likely to occur outside of the home

and that concealed carry does not increase crime

Concealed-Carry Does NOT Increase Violent Crime – Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership

*During the study period, all states moved to adopt some form of concealed-carry legislation, with a trend toward less restrictive legislation. After adjusting for state and year, there was no significant association between shifts from restrictive to nonrestrictive carry legislation on violent crime and public health indicators. Adjusting further for poverty and unemployment did not significantly influence the results.*


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I never said any such thing.
> 
> I SAID violent crime is just as or even more likely to occur outside of the home
> 
> ...


Once the 2nd is scrapped in the future, the better


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 27, 2022)

Less then 500 accidental shootings a year,


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Once the 2nd is scrapped in the future, the better


Why don't you hold your breath until it happens?


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Less then 500 accidental shootings a year,


out of literally tens of millions of legal gun uses.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Why don't you hold your breath until it happens?


Knowledge retention around here is crap, I don't normally find it an issue on UK forums.

So I'll repeat myself, in 20, 30, 40 years time, or even longer, the gradual steps and changes in US gun regs inches forward to the scrapping of the 2nd. Liklies not in your lifetime so it has no effect on you, you need not worry.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Most countries have common sense gun laws and their populations have guns. This is why they experience few gun incidents. If memory serves, I think only four countries banned guns.
> 
> Definition of _assault rifle_​*: *any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic firealso *: *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire
> 
> ...




The countries you cite also murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children in just 6 years....more people murdered than the entire number of people murdered by gun in our country for all 246 years of our existence......


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Knowledge retention around here is crap, I don't normally find it an issue on UK forums.
> 
> So I'll repeat myself, in 20, 30, 40 years time, or even longer, the gradual steps and changes in US gun regs inches forward to the scrapping of the 2nd. Liklies not in your lifetime so it has no effect on you, you need not worry.


It will take a hell of a lot longer than that.

You obviously do not understand how difficult it is to change the Constitution.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Most countries have common sense gun laws and their populations have guns. This is why they experience few gun incidents. If memory serves, I think only four countries banned guns.
> 
> Definition of _assault rifle_​*: *any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic firealso *: *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire
> 
> ...




*a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire

You anti-gun fanatics have been busy...changing definitions again......this is why we will never trust you...*


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> If you read the link again, which is an American Dictionary, it states -
> 
> *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire*
> 
> Now if you feel it is wrong, you need to email your American dictionary company and explain that they don't know the correct definition, beacuse at this moment in time across the planet, an assault rifle is a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire.




They changed the definition because the rifles they want to ban were not fitting the definition they had.......so they changed it ............very George Orwell of them...


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The countries you cite also murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children in just 6 years....more people murdered than the entire number of people murdered by gun in our country for all 246 years of our existence......


OMG that's precious   

Stupid post of the decade award goes to you


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Guns in public is dumb. If they're not a cause of crime, leave them at home.
> 
> How do people know guns aren't secured at home? Because kids shoot one another and their parents. Secured at home means in a gun cabinet bolted to the wall that was checked by the police. As you guys are frightened of burglars, leaving guns at home in the top drawer or on the kitchen table is not secure, is it.
> 
> The mentally ill tend to be the victims of crime as opposed to being the cause, which has already been covered in past posts/threads.




Yep.......get back to us when our gun murder rates get close to 15 million....the number you guys killed in 6 years when the socialists had total control over your countries....


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> It will take a hell of a lot longer than that.
> 
> *You obviously do not understand how difficult it is to change the Constitution*.


OMFG, knowledge retention out the fucking window again!!!!!! That's been covered a thousand times on this forum. What's wrong with you??


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Knowledge retention around here is crap, I don't normally find it an issue on UK forums.
> 
> So I'll repeat myself, in 20, 30, 40 years time, or even longer, the gradual steps and changes in US gun regs inches forward to the scrapping of the 2nd. Liklies not in your lifetime so it has no effect on you, you need not worry.




Yeah.......what you fail to grasp is that the biggest areas of growth in gun ownership in the U.S. are among blacks, hispanics, asians, and women...all groups that had been sadly under represented in gun ownership.....and the groups the democrat party had hoped to give them the power to ban and confiscate guns...


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> *a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire
> 
> You anti-gun fanatics have been busy...changing definitions again......this is why we will never trust you...*


That's in your dictionary, Merriam Webster, so good to know you don't trust yourselves. Is it goon day today??


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> OMFG, knowledge retention out the fucking window again!!!!!! That's been covered a thousand times on this forum. What's wrong with you??



Do you really think I read every single idiotic post you put up?

It is EXTREMELY difficult to change the Constitution.

There isn't any time in the foreseeable future where 3/4 of the states will agree to scrap the 2nd Amendment.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep.......get back to us when our gun murder rates get close to 15 million....the number you guys killed in 6 years when the socialists had total control over your countries....


Lol, you pick wars and then try to compare it wandering around America? What a silly boy you are.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> That's in your dictionary, Merriam Webster, so good to know you don't trust yourselves. Is it goon day today??




The leftists who put that together changed the definition in the grand tradition of Orwell's 1984....they fail to realize that his book was a warning, not an instruction manual.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Do you really think I read every single idiotic post you put up?
> 
> It is EXTREMELY difficult to change the Constitution.
> 
> There isn't any time in the foreseeable future where 3/4 of the states will agree to scrap the 2nd Amendment.


Other posters have posted how to change the constitution too you know !!! Even on other forums. You guys cover Rights, constitution, 2nd A, wars, freedom etc.. every 15 seconds of the day, every day of the week, every week of the year and every year since 1776.

Enough States will get fed up of losing classrooms of kids, did the Right Wing in America scrap abortion to keep the numbers up in the education hunting season?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Lol, you pick wars and then try to compare it wandering around America? What a silly boy you are.




The 15 million murdered were not casualties of war, you doofus..they were rounded up their their governments and handed over to the socialists for murder....

German socialists

*By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 *

*And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths*

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]

That this number doesn't make you fall silent to contemplate your silly position on disarming normal people used to be amazing to me....now, knowing what you nut jobs are...it just makes me more determined to defeat you and keep you from ever having power.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Other posters have posted how to change the constitution too you know !!! Even on other forums. You guys cover Rights, constitution, 2nd A, wars, freedom etc.. every 15 seconds of the day, every day of the week, every week of the year and every year since 1776.
> 
> Enough States will get fed up of losing classrooms of kids, did the Right Wing in America scrap abortion to keep the numbers up in the education hunting season?


There isn't any time in the foreseeable future where 3/4 of the states will agree to scrap the 2nd Amendment.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Other posters have posted how to change the constitution too you know !!! Even on other forums. You guys cover Rights, constitution, 2nd A, wars, freedom etc.. every 15 seconds of the day, every day of the week, every week of the year and every year since 1776.
> 
> Enough States will get fed up of losing classrooms of kids, did the Right Wing in America scrap abortion to keep the numbers up in the education hunting season?




As a free people, we need to protect that freedom from serfs like you........you are the drones of monarchies and socialist mistakes...who don't value freedom and bend the knee with practiced ease.


We will take the dragon fire......


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The leftists who put that together changed the definition in the grand tradition of Orwell's 1984....they fail to realize that his book was a warning, not an instruction manual.


Well, send your gun pamphlet to Merriam Webster to get it corrected because that's the definition that they go by.

You guys can't agree on the 2nd's wording, and you can't agree on what your guns are called -









						Definition of what’s actually an 'assault weapon' is a highly contentious issue
					

Exactly what constitutes an "assault weapon" is a highly contentious issue and something that riles up some gun advocates.




					www.cnbc.com
				




Is there anything about guns America is sure on, cos the terminology gets argued more than anything else. Can you all not sit down and come up with the same song sheet.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The 15 million murdered were not casualties of war, you doofus..they were rounded up their their governments and handed over to the socialists for murder....
> 
> German socialists
> 
> ...


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> There isn't any time in the foreseeable future where 3/4 of the states will agree to scrap the 2nd Amendment.


Thank you for your repeated opinion, we all heard it the first time.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Well, send your gun pamphlet to Merriam Webster to get it corrected because that's the definition that they go by.
> 
> You guys can't agree on the 2nd's wording, and you can't agree on what your guns are called -
> 
> ...




No...we know what the 2nd Amendment says...the George Orwell, 1984 leftists pretend they don't understand the 2nd............

The only reason there is a debate is the left wants to take guns away, and the 2nd Amendment is the plain language reminder they can go F**k themselves....


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Well, send your gun pamphlet to Merriam Webster to get it corrected because that's the definition that they go by.
> 
> You guys can't agree on the 2nd's wording, and you can't agree on what your guns are called -
> 
> ...


you obviously don't realize how stupid it is to ban this gun





But not this gun


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Thank you for your repeated opinion, we all heard it the first time.


No you obviously didn't.  because you still think it will happen


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> As a free people, we need to protect that freedom from serfs like you........you are the drones of monarchies and socialist mistakes...who don't value freedom and bend the knee with practiced ease.
> 
> 
> We will take the dragon fire......


Get your cops under control, they're competing with your kiddy mass murderers -









						By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
					

The Guardian has built the most comprehensive database of US police killing ever published. Compare our findings to those from the UK, Australia, Iceland and beyond




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No you obviously didn't.  because you still think it will happen


Yes, because it's only your opinion and my opinion is that it will happen, so no to repeat your opinion.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Yes, because it's only your opinion and my opinion is that it will happen, so no to repeat your opinion.


I'll repeat it as much as I fucking want. I can't get arrested and jailed for that in this country.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Get your cops under control, they're competing with your kiddy mass murderers -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They shoot violent criminals....

The vast majority of our gun murder victims are young black males murdered by other young black males, involved in crime...the next category is the friends and family of those young black males....the shootings occur in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities...

Thousands of young black males killed in democrat party controlled cities...all with extreme gun control laws......

Don't worry........British criminals are becoming more and more violent...attacks on your police are on the rise.....you will know what this is like.....and you won't know what to do about it.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I'll repeat it as much as I fucking want. I can't get arrested and jailed for that in this country.


I'm surprised, because you lock up so many. It's a very mouthy frothy day today.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> I'm surprised, because you lock up so many. It's a very mouthy frothy day today.


Not a single person in the US is in jail or ever has been for merely reading a book.  You can't say that about the UK can you?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> They shoot violent criminals....
> 
> The vast majority of our gun murder victims are young black males murdered by other young black males, involved in crime...the next category is the friends and family of those young black males....the shootings occur in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities...
> 
> ...


Those violent criminals that include unarmed people running in the opposite direction?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Not a single person in the US is in jail or ever has been for merely reading a book.  You can't say that about the UK can you?


Heavens, we're back to this book again. Obviously you feel it hasn't been covered.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Those violent criminals that include unarmed people running in the opposite direction?



Nope....those are people who had guns.......it is the rarest of rare times when the police accidentally shoot an innocent, unarmed, non-violent citizen......and that is often when they are refusing to comply with basic commands.......

If the British police had to contend with our criminals, you wouldn't have any police left, they would quit or retire....


----------



## ThunderKiss1965 (Jun 27, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Make gun free zones illegal. The majority of these mass shooters are cowards and will not attack a place with armed security or armed civilians. What the fuck is an assault rifle ?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Those violent criminals that include unarmed people running in the opposite direction?




Do you know how many unarmed, black, people, fleeing from police were shot and killed in the U.S. in 2021?

2

One was a robbery suspect....he then confronted and likely fought with the officer.

The other was involved in an argument with a woman who he violently shoved to the ground...ran from the cops then started fighting with the cops..

There are over 41 million black Americans in the U.S.......



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope....those are people who had guns.......it is the rarest of rare times when the police accidentally shoot an innocent, unarmed, non-violent citizen......and that is often when they are refusing to comply with basic commands.......
> 
> If the British police had to contend with our criminals, you wouldn't have any police left, they would quit or retire....


Blimey, I remember in the Obama days when your media kept reporting cop back shooting.

I'm just in the process in creating a Bookmark folder on Thunderbird to tag US news sources to keep track on relevant US news stories as you think I'm naive to the gun nut bullshit.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Blimey, I remember in the Obama days when your media kept reporting cop back shooting.
> 
> I'm just in the process in creating a Bookmark folder on Thunderbird to tag US news sources to keep track on relevant US news stories as you think I'm naive to the gun nut bullshit.




I used the Washington Post police shooting data base.....

2 unarmed, violent, black males were shot and killed by the police in2021


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> For the umpteenth time we do have gun laws.
> 
> Tell me which federal gun laws are not "common sense"
> 
> The problem is that the government and cops do not enforce the gun laws we already have


/---/ I think it's the courts and attorney generals more than the police who don't enforce the gun laws.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Miami are trying to buy back guns to send to Ukraine, they're trying to reduce the gun madness -









						Miami City Commission Passes Gun Buyback Resolution to Ship Arms to Ukraine
					

In a previously unannounced move, the City of Miami resolved to create a buyback program that would ship Miamians' firearms to Ukraine.




					www.miaminewtimes.com


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> because at this moment in time across the planet, an assault rifle is a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire.


That is incorrect.  When progressives forge fraudulent definitions, that does not alter the real world.




Captain Caveman said:


> Wandering around shops with loaded guns. Dumb.


Hardly.




Captain Caveman said:


> Not securing guns at home when not in use. Dumb.


OK.




Captain Caveman said:


> Giving guns to people with the mentality to shoot others under the fallacy of self defence. Dumb.


Self defense is neither dumb nor a fallacy.

Any government that denies the right to self defense is an illegitimate government, and it is OK do disregard all its laws.




Captain Caveman said:


> Guns in public is dumb. If they're not a cause of crime, leave them at home.


No.  We have the right to defend ourselves.




Captain Caveman said:


> The mentally ill tend to be the victims of crime as opposed to being the cause, which has already been covered in past posts/threads.


Actually a lot of mass shooters have had some serious mental issues.

Not all of them.  That grocery store shooter guy was merely a racist moron.  But a significant number of them are.




Captain Caveman said:


> As you've confirmed there's no need to have guns in the street.


Americans are free people.  We don't have to have any need.  If we choose to carry a gun, we do it.  And we don't need anyone's permission to do so.




Captain Caveman said:


> Once the 2nd is scrapped in the future, the better


That is never going to happen.




Captain Caveman said:


> So I'll repeat myself, in 20, 30, 40 years time, or even longer, the gradual steps and changes in US gun regs inches forward to the scrapping of the 2nd.


That will never happen.  Americans will always value freedom.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire



How many automatic fire weapons are legally owned in the US?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Jailing for reading a book is dumb, I agree.
> 
> As you've confirmed there's no need to have guns in the street.



Lee Rigby could have used a gun in the street.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 27, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many automatic fire weapons are legally owned in the US?


it doesnt matter as that definition also says semi autos that LOOK like full auto are the same.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jun 27, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Lee Rigby could have used a gun in the street.


Wouldn't have helped him, he was ran down by a car without having anytime to react.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 27, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> it doesnt matter as that definition also says semi autos that LOOK like full auto are the same.



Yeah, don't get me started on the scary bayonet mounts.


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Wandering around shops with loaded guns. Dumb.
> 
> Not securing guns at home when not in use. Dumb.
> 
> ...


Banning and confiscating guns for peaceable law abiding citizens who do none of the things you mentioned.  Dumb.


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Guns in public is dumb.


That's odd because when your political leaders are in public they are usually accompanied by men with guns.  Are you suggesting that your public SERVANTS should have more protection from men of ill will than the people they serve?


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> As you've confirmed there's no need to have guns in the street.


You mean other than for protection?  How fast do you think response times are for police?


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Once the 2nd is scrapped in the future, the better


Never going to happen.  Besides, you aren't even an American citizen.  So unless you were an alien legally in the U.S. not admitted into the U.S. under a nonimmigrant visa and met one of the exceptions as provided in 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), such as possession of a valid hunting license or permit, you could not legally purchase a gun.  And even then the gun you purchased would have to be for the purpose of sport.  In other words, the 2nd Amendment is dead to you so you get your wish.


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Knowledge retention around here is crap, I don't normally find it an issue on UK forums.
> 
> So I'll repeat myself, in 20, 30, 40 years time, or even longer, the gradual steps and changes in US gun regs inches forward to the scrapping of the 2nd. Liklies not in your lifetime so it has no effect on you, you need not worry.


Never going to happen.  You are a linear thinker in a cyclical universe.


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Enough States will get fed up of losing classrooms of kids


Single point entry with an armed guard with proper police preparedness and response.  Problem solved.


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> You guys can't agree on the 2nd's wording


What's wrong with the wording of the 2nd Amendment?  


Captain Caveman said:


> you can't agree on what your guns are called


Sure we can.  I have revolvers, semi-automatic pistols some of which are double action, some are single action and some are decockers.  I have over and under shotguns, a single shot shotgun, a pump shotgun and a semi-automatic shotgun.  I have bolt action rifles and semi-automatic rifles.  

Where exactly is your confusion?  Because I'm not confused in the slightest.  


Captain Caveman said:


> Is there anything about guns America is sure on


You mean besides the right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right?  Yes, lot's of other things as well.  I submit the confusion is intentionally created by people who wish to ban and confiscate guns for the express purpose of removing a constitutional right to keep and bear arms.


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Get your cops under control, they're competing with your kiddy mass murderers -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or maybe you should do their job for awhile.


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> I'm surprised, because you lock up so many. It's a very mouthy frothy day today.


And banning and confiscating guns will stop that?


----------



## ding (Jun 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Blimey, I remember in the Obama days when your media kept reporting cop back shooting.
> 
> I'm just in the process in creating a Bookmark folder on Thunderbird to tag US news sources to keep track on relevant US news stories as you think I'm naive to the gun nut bullshit.


Sound bites are misleading.  You make it sound like a war zone in America.  That hasn't been my experience.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> That is incorrect.  When progressives forge fraudulent definitions, that does not alter the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Buffalo store shooter was a leftist authoritarian, eco extremist…..who was also a racist….

racism is part of leftism.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 27, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many automatic fire weapons are legally owned in the US?


As far as post-WWII guns go....

Assault rifles:

About 20,000 M-16s (many with parts kits to convert them to a 9mm submachine gun, providing their owner with two guns in one).

About 4,000 FN-FNCs.


Submachine guns:

About 25,000 MAC-10 variants (20,000 of them MAC-11/9MMs).

About 6,000 Uzi variants.  4,050 of them Group Industries Uzis (that are very nice because the legally-irreplaceable parts are deliberately made of very high grade tempered steel).  3318 of those becoming Vector Uzis after Group Industries went bankrupt (which are nicer yet because they were completed with parts taken from actual Israel-built Uzis).


General purpose machine guns:

About 1,000 M-60s.


H&K:

About 12,000 H&K guns.

Of these, about 7,200 are sears that can be freely swapped between a HK21 general purpose machine gun, HK33 assault rifle, MP5 submachine gun, and MP5K machine pistol, giving the owner an entire spectrum of weapon types with a single legally-registered sear, provided they own one of each type to drop the sear into.  Most people who own such a sear do collect a range of weapon types to swap between.

I don't have a breakdown for the rest of the H&K guns, but I assume that most are probably MP5 submachine guns.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 28, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /---/ I think it's the courts and attorney generals more than the police who don't enforce the gun laws.


All part of the same system


----------



## flan327 (Jun 28, 2022)

2aguy said:


> It is a medical procedure to simply remove an unviable tissue mass....why shouldn't everyone see it......?   Right?  Just like removing a mole...that is what baby killers tell us...


Oh my gladiolus 

I don’t want to see OPEN HEART SURGERY 

EEJIT


----------



## flan327 (Jun 28, 2022)

Concerned American said:


> Where is your venom at the perpetrator of the OKC bombings.  There were many more children killed and maimed there.  I get it--he didn't use a gun.  However the common thread was he had mental problems that were not addressed.  Address the problem and quit blaming inanimate objects.


No

DO BOTH


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Jun 28, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.
> 2) Make it illegal to purchase or own any kind of assault rifle. They are not needed for home protection or hunting. They are only good for killing large numbers of people, really fast.
> 
> Our children are being killed in their classrooms. We must act now. They can't vote; they don't have a voice. *WE MUST BE THEIR VOICE. PLEASE.*


Show me the word need in the bill of rights? How about cutting out money from drug companies?


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 28, 2022)

flan327 said:


> No
> 
> DO BOTH


/----/ We need to confiscate your car to stop drunk driving and vehicular homicide.  DO BOTH


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 28, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> Hey didn't that Norway shooter have a gun? Are guns legal in Norway?


Yes they are. Did you know that in terms of gun ownership, Norway ranks 10th in the world, with 31 guns per 100 people. "Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws around today. It is only possible to obtain permission to own a weapon by having officially documented a use for the gun with the local police and taken extensive training relevant to the intended use of the weapon. Generally, this falls into two categories: hunting and sports shooting." Gun Ownership in Norway - Life in Norway
Basically Norway has a sensible set of gun laws, a possible model for the USA.


SweetSue92 said:


> Americans. How many of you give one rat's behind what Vagabond thinks of us? I'll start. I do not.


Clearly YOU do, otherwise you wouldn't post


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 28, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Of course. He protects us from progressives.


ROFL! Some Germans believed that about Hitler too.


Open Bolt said:


> I'm trying to figure out whether the UK denies civilian access to *any* gun that is useful for self defense, or whether there are a few self-defense guns around the edges that some civilians are allowed to have.


Here, knock yourself out: Take a look at the guns you can legally buy in the UK


Open Bolt said:


> Our gun industry is not financing anyone but their shareholders.


Yees, keep telling yourself that, if it helps you sleep at night.


Open Bolt said:


> Not at all. We really do have the right to keep and bear arms.


Yes, barbarism to decadence, whilst never knowing civilisation.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jun 28, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah you can be arrested for owning the Anarchist's Cookbook too.


Only, if you are planning a terrorist attack and the police find out. Otherwise owning the Anarchists Cookbook is quite legal.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 28, 2022)

flan327 said:


> No
> DO BOTH


Request denied.  We are not going to abolish freedom.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Norway has a sensible set of gun laws, a possible model for the USA.





Vagabond63 said:


> It is only possible to obtain permission to own a weapon by having officially documented a use for the gun with the local police


Not even remotely compatible with the US.

Americans are free.  If we want a gun, we go buy a gun, and we never justify ourselves to anyone.




Vagabond63 said:


> Yees, keep telling yourself that, if it helps you sleep at night.


I don't have trouble sleeping.




Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, barbarism to decadence, whilst never knowing civilisation.


I do not agree that to achieve civilization, freedom has to be abolished.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes they are. Did you know that in terms of gun ownership, Norway ranks 10th in the world, with 31 guns per 100 people. "Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws around today. It is only possible to obtain permission to own a weapon by having officially documented a use for the gun with the local police and taken extensive training relevant to the intended use of the weapon. Generally, this falls into two categories: hunting and sports shooting." Gun Ownership in Norway - Life in Norway
> Basically Norway has a sensible set of gun laws, a possible model for the USA.
> 
> Clearly YOU do, otherwise you wouldn't post



And what keeps the gun owners who pass the absurd regulations from walking into a school, mall, church and shooting people?

Nothing.

And are Muslim, convicted criminals on government watch lists in Norway and Several  other counties exempt from those regulations?   Cause the Muslim terrorist who shot up Oslo seems to have been able to get several guns including a fully auto-magic rifle?

Are fully automatic weapons allowed to civilians in Norway?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes they are. Did you know that in terms of gun ownership, Norway ranks 10th in the world, with 31 guns per 100 people. "Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws around today. It is only possible to obtain permission to own a weapon by having officially documented a use for the gun with the local police and taken extensive training relevant to the intended use of the weapon. Generally, this falls into two categories: hunting and sports shooting." Gun Ownership in Norway - Life in Norway
> Basically Norway has a sensible set of gun laws, a possible model for the USA.
> 
> Clearly YOU do, otherwise you wouldn't post



Just wondering….since Sweden is next to Norway….does Sweden just hand out AK-47 military rifles and grenades to criminals?  Or do their criminals have to pass some regulations to get the fully automatic rifles and grenades?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes they are. Did you know that in terms of gun ownership, Norway ranks 10th in the world, with 31 guns per 100 people. "Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws around today. It is only possible to obtain permission to own a weapon by having officially documented a use for the gun with the local police and taken extensive training relevant to the intended use of the weapon. Generally, this falls into two categories: hunting and sports shooting." Gun Ownership in Norway - Life in Norway
> Basically Norway has a sensible set of gun laws, a possible model for the USA.
> 
> Clearly YOU do, otherwise you wouldn't post



Hmmm….Does Brussels, in Belgium, hand out guns?   Do their criminals have to go through all sorts of checks before they can have their illegal guns?









						Brussels Police announce press conference on recent rise in shootings
					

Police attributes the rise in shootings to different drug-related score-settling in the Brussels-West, City of Brussels/Ixelles, and Brussels-South police zones.




					www.brusselstimes.com


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes they are. Did you know that in terms of gun ownership, Norway ranks 10th in the world, with 31 guns per 100 people. "Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws around today. It is only possible to obtain permission to own a weapon by having officially documented a use for the gun with the local police and taken extensive training relevant to the intended use of the weapon. Generally, this falls into two categories: hunting and sports shooting." Gun Ownership in Norway - Life in Norway
> Basically Norway has a sensible set of gun laws, a possible model for the USA.
> 
> Clearly YOU do, otherwise you wouldn't post


/——/ Vaga, move to Norway so you feel safe.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Here, knock yourself out: Take a look at the guns you can legally buy in the UK


That didn't answer my question, but I finally got curious enough to find out for myself.

It appears that people who join a shooting club count as having a legitimate need for a lever-action rifle.

While I can certainly see how frequent shooting exercises are beneficial, why do you think forcing people to participate in a shooting club before they are allowed to have a gun somehow reduces homicide rates?

The only effect of more shooting practice that I can see is that it will make gun owners better shots.  That's not a bad thing, but I really don't see how it reduces homicide rates any.

We already know of course that gun availability doesn't have any impact on homicide rates.  But it doesn't look to me like UK gun laws have a basis for even pretending that they curtail homicides.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> That didn't answer my question, but I finally got curious enough to find out for myself.
> 
> It appears that people who join a shooting club count as having a legitimate need for a lever-action rifle.
> 
> ...



He will likely say they have to store their guns at the club……

But since mass shooters actually plan their attacks, nothing stops them from getting to the club, getting and loading their guns, murdering the staff and taking the guns to shoot up a school…..

They have no understanding of human behavior…..


----------



## Open Bolt (Jun 28, 2022)

2aguy said:


> He will likely say they have to store their guns at the club……


They require people to have a gun safe, but I think you can store long guns at home.

Not sure about handguns.  But they require handguns to be so large that people may as well just get a long gun.




2aguy said:


> But since mass shooters actually plan their attacks, nothing stops them from getting to the club, getting and loading their guns, murdering the staff and taking the guns to shoot up a school…..
> They have no understanding of human behavior…..


I don't see how any of their laws actually do anything to stop a mass shooter.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> They require people to have a gun safe, but I think you can store long guns at home.
> 
> Not sure about handguns.  But they require handguns to be so large that people may as well just get a long gun.
> 
> ...



Yep, I always ask them which gun control law physically prevents these gun owners from shooting up schools……they never answer


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Only, if you are planning a terrorist attack and the police find out. Otherwise owning the Anarchists Cookbook is quite legal.


Wrong.

Merely possessing the book is enough to get you arrested for "terrorism" in your country


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Merely possessing the book is enough to get you arrested for "terrorism" in your country


Really? Only if you wander off to a war zone in the Middle East, then come back and buy one, might set off the odd alarm bell in MI5, I suppose.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep, I always ask them which gun control law physically prevents these gun owners from shooting up schools……they never answer


Oh, we do, you just ignore the responses.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, we do, you just ignore the responses.




Yes...because you can't answer that question.......

Guns are flooding into Britain, according to the British police......you had 2 recent mass public shootings, one in Cumbria, one in Plymouth, and a gang shooting in Moss Side......where they sprayed a crowd, killing 2....

Now...again....which British gun control laws kept any of those shooters from walking into a school, and murdering students and teachers?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 6, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> I don't see how any of their laws actually do anything to stop a mass shooter.


No law in existance has never been broken, it is foolish to argue that a law can stop a crime being committed. Our gun laws and procedures are designed to weed out anyone who might pose a risk to public safety by having a firearm. No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade, whereas in the USA, seems to be one every week at the moment.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes...because you can't answer that question.......
> 
> Guns are flooding into Britain, according to the British police......you had 2 recent mass public shootings, one in Cumbria, one in Plymouth, and a gang shooting in Moss Side......where they sprayed a crowd, killing 2....
> 
> Now...again....which British gun control laws kept any of those shooters from walking into a school, and murdering students and teachers?


see post #863. Or trawl back through your old threads and find similar answers time after time after time. I suppose one might eventually penetrate your gun crazed rape fantasy riddled brain.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 6, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——/ Vaga, move to Norway so you feel safe.


Don't have to, I have homes in both the UK and Spain, they're safe enough for me, thanks.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No law in existance has never been broken, it is foolish to argue that a law can stop a crime being committed. Our gun laws and procedures are designed to weed out anyone who might pose a risk to public safety by having a firearm. No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade, whereas in the USA, seems to be one every week at the moment.




And yet they fail over and over again...as your criminals get guns easily.....and you have had 2 mass public shootings since the ban and confiscation of guns......which is the same rate as before you confiscated guns......

Your system hasn't stopped mass public shootings....your nuts simply didn't decide to commit them....

In the U.S., with over 330 million Americans, we had 6 individuals in 2021 decide to commit them.....6....out of over 330 million Americans......

Total killed....43.

Deer kill 200 people a year in the U.S.

Lawn mowers kill 90-100 people a year.....

Ladders kill 300 people a year....

Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent criminals...according to the Centers for Disease control....or 2.5 million according to the best research on the subject by Gary Kleck.....

Now......

.what if we averaged the number of gun murders over the entire history of the United States.... 246 years.

This won't include all gun deaths, since even here, the majority are done by the government against our citizens....see the democrat party Civil War.......

So....I took 10,000 as an average number of gun murders.....some years more, some years less....later we can even bump that number up...but (spoiler), it won't change the underlying truth...

Soooo...10,000 gun murders a year X 246..... punch that in to the calculator ( who has time for doing it by hand....)

We get?

2,460,000 gun murders......I know, I know.....gun crime in the early colonies didn't reach 10,000 murders a year....you only get that if you look at the future democrat party members and what they would do to their slaves....


Sooo...


246 years....and we average out to 2,460,000 gun murders........



What about old Europe.....



in the 6 years between 1939-1945 when the socialists in German and their conquered countries began to murder their citizens.....what was the grand total of their murder?  



15 million....innocent men, women and children.......



I don't know about you, but I went to public school, but I can still see how those numbers are falling out....and..........the United States gun murder isn't the biggest problem when it comes to murder.....


Now.....I know...this is going to cause major butt hurt among the left wing, anti-gun fanatics out there...they will cry out about the most recent gun murder numbers after 5 years of the democrat party attacking the police...forcing them to not do their jobs....and the democrat party refusing to prosecute gun criminals....and then releasing gun criminals from jail and prison like they were on sale.....so we have a higher rate of gun murder because of the democrats and their policies...

So heck....let's indulge them like the spoiled little infants that they are....

*Lets bump up the average number of gun murders to 20,000.....which is far more than the actual average, but  I am a generous kinda guy....*



20,000 X 246 years = 4,920,000



over 246 years....



Again...matching that to Europe....



1939-1945..... 6 years.....



15 million murdered...........



The gun murders in the U.S...the vast majority of the victims are criminals...murdered by other criminals as they engage in crime........and their unfortunate friends and family caught in that crossfire....



In Europe?



The vast majority of the murdered were innocent men, women and children.....not collateral from the socialist war....simply murdered by their governments.....



Nope...........not freaking giving up our guns cause anti-gun fanatics tell us to trust the government.....



Expect to see these calculations in future discussions.....



As to the 15,000,000 million number...the source...

=======

NAZI GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER



*German socialists


By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1*

And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> see post #863. Or trawl back through your old threads and find similar answers time after time after time. I suppose one might eventually penetrate your gun crazed rape fantasy riddled brain.




And you still refuse to point out which British gun laws kept the two mass public shooters in Britain from going into a public school to murder students.....

I ask an easy couple of questions about self defense...and you call it rape fantasies because you can't defend your position on guns and self defense...

To repeat them....

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?

A woman wants a gun to protect herself from rape, robbery and murder...the British police refuse to give her a permit because these are not "good reasons," to own a gun.

A wealthy member of the House of Lords in Britain wants to go bird Hunting with his rich buddies on one of his many, private estates.....he gets a gun permit because this is a "good reason," to own a gun...

Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 6, 2022)

Ah, the inevitable deluge of irrelevant BS


2aguy said:


> Your system hasn't stopped mass public shootings....your nuts simply didn't decide to commit them....


Wow. I'll say it again as it's clearly not penetrating, no law in existance has never been broken, it is foolish to argue that a law can stop a crime being committed. Our gun laws and procedures are designed to weed out anyone who might pose a risk to public safety by having a firearm. No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade, whereas in the USA, seems to be one every week at the moment.

Oh, how many school shootings have you had since 1945? We've had 1, and as a result of the massive public outcry, the laws were enacted to ban certain firearms. How many school shootings have we had since 1996? 0, How many school shootings has America had in that time frame?


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, the inevitable deluge of irrelevant BS
> 
> Wow. I'll say it again as it's clearly not penetrating, no law in existance has never been broken, it is foolish to argue that a law can stop a crime being committed. Our gun laws and procedures are designed to weed out anyone who might pose a risk to public safety by having a firearm. No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade, whereas in the USA, seems to be one every week at the moment.
> 
> Oh, how many school shootings have you had since 1945? We've had 1, and as a result of the massive public outcry, the laws were enacted to ban certain firearms. How many school shootings have we had since 1996? 0, How many school shootings has America had in that time frame?




We had a total of 6 mass public shootings in 2021.....6 individuals in a country of over 330 million people...

School shootings are just as rare......



And in bringing up your school shooting...again.....which gun control law stopped the Cumbria shooter or the Plymouth shooter, or the guys who shot up the Pub in Moss Side, in your country from going into a school and murdering children and teachers?

You can't sit there and claim that your gun laws after that school shooting stopped future school shootings when you just had 2 mass public shootings......

Keep in mind.....Jewish schools in Britain have heavily armed private security to protect them.....I wonder why that is?

Meanwhile, we know how to keep our schools safe...but because anti-gun fanatics in this country get the most traction from dead children, they fight to keep us from protecting our schools the way Jewish schools are protected in Britain.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, the inevitable deluge of irrelevant BS
> 
> Wow. I'll say it again as it's clearly not penetrating, no law in existance has never been broken, it is foolish to argue that a law can stop a crime being committed. Our gun laws and procedures are designed to weed out anyone who might pose a risk to public safety by having a firearm. No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade, whereas in the USA, seems to be one every week at the moment.
> 
> Oh, how many school shootings have you had since 1945? We've had 1, and as a result of the massive public outcry, the laws were enacted to ban certain firearms. How many school shootings have we had since 1996? 0, How many school shootings has America had in that time frame?



And you failed to answer these questions...

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?

A woman wants a gun to protect herself from rape, robbery and murder...the British police refuse to give her a permit because these are not "good reasons," to own a gun.

A wealthy member of the House of Lords in Britain wants to go bird Hunting with his rich buddies on one of his many, private estates.....he gets a gun permit because this is a "good reason," to own a gun...

Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade,


You have the same number of massacres per decade that you had before you abolished freedom.

So abolishing your freedom did not change anything.  You gave up your freedom for no reason at all.




Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, the inevitable deluge of irrelevant BS


I've never seen anyone point out anything untrue in his posts.

I've also not noticed anything untrue in his posts myself.

How are his points supposed to be irrelevant?  They seem on-topic to me.




Vagabond63 said:


> as a result of the massive public outcry, the laws were enacted to ban certain firearms.


What a horrible and tragic loss of freedom.

You guys need to change and become more like we are here in America.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> School shootings are just as rare....


So, how many school shootings have you had since 1945?


----------



## Blues Man (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really? Only if you wander off to a war zone in the Middle East, then come back and buy one, might set off the odd alarm bell in MI5, I suppose.











						Ben John: Extremist ordered to read books is jailed
					

Ben John, who was told to read Austen and Shakespeare, has his original suspended sentence quashed.



					www.bbc.com
				




The 22-year-old was convicted of having a copy of The Anarchist Cookbook on a computer hard drive.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So, how many school shootings have you had since 1945?


13 I think.

I'm curious what was funny about my comment:
_"There are plenty of Europeans who insist on having rights too.  The band of countries from Finland through Switzerland for example."_


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So, how many school shootings have you had since 1945?



Actual mass public shootings…….I would have to check…


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> 13 I think.
> 
> I'm curious what was funny about my comment:
> _"There are plenty of Europeans who insist on having rights too.  The band of countries from Finland through Switzerland for example."_



Yeah, about that……now, he will link to the anti-gun site that lists shootings that happen on school property, after hours, on Saturday night at midnight when gangs are at the basketball hoops, suicides that happen after hours in the school parking lot, and shootings that happen across the street between drug dealers…


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So, how many school shootings have you had since 1945?



Open Bolt has the number…..13.  

And you didn’t answer my questions…


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you failed to answer these questions...


What those non-question questions? Oh, I've answered them time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, you just ignore my answers.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> 13 I think.


Well Wikipedia puts the number at 33,  but that's almost irrrelevant to my point.  No law in existance has never been broken, it is foolish to argue that a law can stop a crime being committed.

List of mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia 

Our gun laws and procedures are designed to weed out anyone who might pose a risk to public safety by having a firearm. No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade, whereas in the USA, seems to be one every week at the moment.

Oh, how many school shootings have you had since 1945? We've had 1, and as a result of the massive public outcry, the laws were enacted to ban certain firearms. How many school shootings have we had since 1996? 0.

Clearly our laws and procedures have managed to successfully prevent school shootings. Controlling who has access to firearms works, end of story.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Ben John: Extremist ordered to read books is jailed
> 
> 
> Ben John, who was told to read Austen and Shakespeare, has his original suspended sentence quashed.
> ...


Ah, a far Right-wing white supremacist anti-semitic extremist. OK, seems you have so many of those in America, they seem normal to you. In my opinion the original judge was perhaps a bit too Left-wing in his leniency.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> I'm curious what was funny about my comment:
> _"There are plenty of Europeans who insist on having rights too. The band of countries from Finland through Switzerland for example."_


The countries mentioned have strict gun controls, which have no real effect on their citizens' "rights" that you find so "precious".


----------



## Blues Man (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, a far Right-wing white supremacist anti-semitic extremist. OK, seems you have so many of those in America, they seem normal to you. In my opinion the original judge was perhaps a bit too Left-wing in his leniency.



Look up and you'll see my point sailing over your head.

He was arrested for nothing but having a book on his hard drive.  He committed no "terrorist" acts he committed no violence against anyone.  His only "crime" was owning a digital book.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What those non-question questions? Oh, I've answered them time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, you just ignore my answers.




No, actually, you haven't.....you say you won't answer them, and that isn't an answer....you just don't like what your answers are going to reveal..


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well Wikipedia puts the number at 33,  but that's almost irrrelevant to my point.  No law in existance has never been broken, it is foolish to argue that a law can stop a crime being committed.
> 
> List of mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia
> 
> ...




It's not 33 but thanks for pushing the propaganda....

*The problem here is that three very differently defined terms are being used somewhat incautiously and interchangeably: school shooting, mass shooting, and mass school shooting. Uvalde was a mass school shooting; the 26 previous tragedies at schools this year were not.*
*---
 Many of the 26 previous shootings involved disputes between students in parking lots, or after athletic events, and all of them resulted in one or zero deaths. These deaths are still incredibly tragic, of course. But they are fundamentally unlike what happened in Uval

Uvalde is a mass school shooting. This is defined in different ways too: an incident in which at least four people (some counters make it three) are shot and/or killed. The Gun Violence Archive counts incidents in which at least four people were shot. Under this definition, many incidents of street crime and domestic violence count as mass shootings, even if no deaths result. A stricter tally of mass school shootings, conductedby criminologists for Scientific American, only includes incidents where the shootings resulted in at least four deaths. *

*Using their criteria, the number of mass school shootings in the U.S. since the year 1966 is 13. These crimes claimed the lives of 146 people in total.*



There Have Been 13 Mass School Shootings Since 1966, Not 27 This Year



Of Course.......what you won't go into, is the fact that Britain had lots of guns up to the Dunblane shooting and the gun ban and confiscation in 1996........with all those guns, you had 1 school shooting....

You had guns, but only one school shooting.......you can't explain that since your entire premise is that guns cause these things to happen....

Then, of course, you have to explain to us which British gun control law against shooting up schools stopped the Cumbria, Plymouth and Moss Side shooters, all after the 1996 ban, from going to a school and shooting students and staff....

You can't explain that either....

See...it isn't access to guns...since your country had access to guns and didn't have the shootings......you banned the guns and had 3 shootings, after that could easily have been school shootings...

You have no logic to back up your claims......

Then you would also have to explain why Jewish schools in Britain have heavily armed private security.......if guns are not a threat in Britain....


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> The countries mentioned have strict gun controls, which have no real effect on their citizens' "rights" that you find so "precious".




You mean except for the mass murder of 15 million men, women and children by their governments......you guys aren't going to get away with ignoring that....

Nothing stops your government from becoming deadly to your people.....and on top of that......you have rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings in Britain, and you just accept them as fine and dandy...........the victims have no right to self defense...


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Look up and you'll see my point sailing over your head.
> 
> He was arrested for nothing but having a book on his hard drive.  He committed no "terrorist" acts he committed no violence against anyone.  His only "crime" was owning a digital book.




And he may have even been caught singing, "Kung Fu Fighting," at a pub....which is also an offense that can result in jail time...


----------



## Blues Man (Jul 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And he may have even been caught singing, "Kung Fu Fighting," at a pub....which is also an offense that can result in jail time...


The though police are alive and well in jolly ol' England


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Look up and you'll see my point sailing over your head.
> 
> He was arrested for nothing but having a book on his hard drive.  He committed no "terrorist" acts he committed no violence against anyone.  His only "crime" was owning a digital book.


"Lincolnshire Police said John had first come to the attention of counter-terrorism officers in 2018 after he wrote a letter entitled Eternal Front - Lincolnshire Fascist Underground.

He was arrested in January 2020, and later charged with offences under the Terrorism Act, including possessing documents on combat, homemade weapons and explosives.

The force said John had become part of the Extreme Right Wing (XRW) online - a term for activists who commit criminal activity motivated by a political or cultural view, such as racism or extreme nationalism.

He amassed 67,788 documents in bulk downloads onto hard drives, which contained a wealth of white supremacist and anti-Semitic material.

One of the hard drives was found hidden inside a sock when police searched his home, officers said.

He was convicted by a jury of one count of possessing information likely to be useful to a terrorist and cleared of six other counts of the same offence." Ben John: Right-wing extremist gets suspended jail sentence

The Saudi Arabians who took flying lessons in the US were considered normal citizens until they hijacked and flew the planes into the twin towers on 9/11

We've had decades of experience of terrorism, partly funded and supplied by Americans; that's why we prefer not to take unnecessary risks. If you don't do anything to attract the attention of our anti-terrorist police, you won't get arrested for owning a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. Fact.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> "Lincolnshire Police said John had first come to the attention of counter-terrorism officers in 2018 after he wrote a letter entitled Eternal Front - Lincolnshire Fascist Underground.
> 
> He was arrested in January 2020, and later charged with offences under the Terrorism Act, including possessing documents on combat, homemade weapons and explosives.
> 
> ...




But you will be arrested for singing "Kung Fu Fighting," on Karaoke night at the local pub..


----------



## Blues Man (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> "Lincolnshire Police said John had first come to the attention of counter-terrorism officers in 2018 after he wrote a letter entitled Eternal Front - Lincolnshire Fascist Underground.
> 
> He was arrested in January 2020, and later charged with offences under the Terrorism Act, including possessing documents on combat, homemade weapons and explosives.
> 
> ...


Like I said all he was arrested for possessing books , documents , whatever.

IOW thought crimes


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And he may have even been caught singing, "Kung Fu Fighting," at a pub....which is also an offense that can result in jail time...


Total and absolute bullshit. A chinese member of the audience took offence and called the police, the singer was detained and later released without charge. In America, it's highly likely the singer would have been shot by the angry Chinese audience member.
At least we can set off fireworks over here without risking being shot..








						Tennessee man charged with pulling gun on families for setting off fireworks
					

WTVC NewsChannel 9 provides coverage of news, sports, weather and community events throughout the Chattanooga, Tennessee area, including East Ridge, East Brainerd, Ooltewah, Middle Valley, Cleveland, Georgetown, Hopewell, Dayton, Dunlap and Jasper, Tennessee, Fort Oglethorpe, Chickamauga and...




					newschannel9.com


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Total and absolute bullshit. A chinese member of the audience took offence and called the police, the singer was detained and later released without charge. In America, it's highly likely the singer would have been shot by the angry Chinese audience member.
> At least we can set off fireworks over here without risking being shot..
> 
> 
> ...





Yeah.....the whole, "detained," thing for singing a song...that is the problem, you doofus....

Yeah...you guys simply prefer to murder innocent men, women and children using the government......15 million the last time you guys got going...and it took Americans with guns to stop that slaughter......

You are welcome.

And you refuse to answer these simple questions...

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?*
---------

*A woman wants a gun to keep from being raped, robbed, murdered, beaten, stabbed....British police refuse to give her a permit because those are not "good reasons," to own and carry a gun.

A wealthy member of the House of Lords wants to go bird hunting with his rich buddies on one of his many private estates....the British police give him a permit because bird hunting is a "good reason," to own a gun....

This makes sense to you?*


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What those non-question questions? Oh, I've answered them time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, you just ignore my answers.


/----/ ODD - I've been here for years and never saw you post replies time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time. Please post a link to any of these answers. TIA


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 7, 2022)

He cant post a link because he never answered the questions.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> It's not 33 but thanks for pushing the propaganda....


Don't blame me, I just tallied the school shooting incidents on the Wikipedia page. Even so, 147 murdered children is fine with you it seems, so long as anyone can have a gun.


2aguy said:


> Of Course.......what you won't go into, is the fact that Britain had lots of guns up to the Dunblane shooting


Erm, we still do. There are around 700,000 firearms certificate holders in the UK, each of whom may own more than one firearm.


2aguy said:


> You had guns, but only one school shooting.......you can't explain that since your entire premise is that guns cause these things to happen....


No it isn't. I've never stated that premise, it's just there in your addled brain. I like guns, I used to own guns, I'm against allowing every Tom, Dick and Harriett to get a gun without adequate screening. That's what our laws and procedures do, quite effectively, thank you. Are they perfect? No. But I don't need a gun to feel safe, or manly, or whatever other reasons you people put forward.


2aguy said:


> Then you would also have to explain why Jewish schools in Britain have heavily armed private security...


They don't. Guns aren't allowed in UK schools, Jewish or otherwise.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jul 7, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/ ODD - I've been here for years and never saw you post replies time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time. Please post a link to any of these answers. TIA


You've been here for years and don't know all you have to do is click on my avatar, then click messages, which will take you to all my posts; there you go, happy to help.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You've been here for years and don't know all you have to do is click on my avatar, then click messages, which will take you to all my posts; there you go, happy to help.


/----/ Nope, can't say I found a response to the first question time, after time, after time, blah blah blah.
*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?*


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Don't blame me, I just tallied the school shooting incidents on the Wikipedia page. Even so, 147 murdered children is fine with you it seems, so long as anyone can have a gun.
> 
> Erm, we still do. There are around 700,000 firearms certificate holders in the UK, each of whom may own more than one firearm.
> 
> ...




Over 56 years? 

Meanwhile, you Europeans murdered 1,000,000 children in 6 years.........

*Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths.











						NAZI GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER
					





					www.hawaii.edu
				



*
Can you tell which number is bigger?

In 246 years of our existence.....if you add up all the criminal gun murder.....over 246 years.....we don't even come close to the murder of your peoples by your governments in that 6 year period.........and if you stretch the murder to 1933 it goes up to 20 million....

After the Europeans gave up their guns to be safer......

And what keeps those 700,000 gun owners from using their guns to murder children in schools?   Please, show us which law keeps that from happening, considering two mass public shootings have happened since the gun ban and confiscation in Britain.......


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 7, 2022)

Question: Do anyone here know if George Zimmerman was able to sell his gun? He was selling the gun he killed Treyvon Martin with to the highest bidder a few years ago? I'm just curious.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question: Do anyone here know if George Zimmerman was able to sell his gun? He was selling the gun he killed Treyvon Martin with to the highest bidder a few years ago? I'm just curious.




The gun he used to save his life from the violent thug?   Don't know....


----------



## ItsRonnieYall (Jul 7, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> 1) ALL politicians should be barred from accepting donations from the NRA. At the national, state and local level. The reason we cannot get any common sense gun laws put into place is because too many politicians (Democrat and Republican, I hear) are beholden to the NRA.



You do have a very valid point and I think it would help immensely to stop mass shootings, but to ask politicians not to accept any donations from the NRA defeats completely the way the lobbying system is right now, which is set this way for a reason and not by coincidence.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

ItsRonnieYall said:


> You do have a very valid point and I think it would help immensely to stop mass shootings, but to ask politicians not to accept any donations from the NRA defeats completely the way the lobbying system is right now, which is set this way for a reason and not by coincidence.




No, they don't have a point........the NRA doesn't even register in the Open Secrets list of the biggest campaign donors....

Don't blame the NRA for failed gun control efforts

You know how the argument goes. The "conventional wisdom" is the NRA's heavy spending stops hundreds of politicians from enacting the "common sense" gun control laws they and everyone else would otherwise support.
---------

There's only one problem with that theory. It's all wrong.

Of course, the NRA does spend money and it does have a sophisticated and persistent messaging operation. But so do dozens of other organizations and causes. So, how does the NRA stack up against them?
*Not too well. The NRA, gun makers, and gun rights issues do not even show up on the OpenSecrets website lists for top lobbying firms, top lobbying sectors, top lobbying issues, or top lobbying industries for the years 1998-2017.

The figures for Florida Senator Marco Rubio are particularly educational, since he has been a target of a lot of anti-NRA screeds since the shooting in his home state. A look at the top 20 donors to Rubio directly and his PAC since 2009 does not include the NRA. Over his career since 2009, Rubio has raised a total of more than $91 million in donations. The NRA is responsible for just over $3 million of that, or 3.3 percent. Big whoop, as they say. Yes, $3 million is a lot of money and more than most of us could ever donate to anything. But context is everything, and the even a so-called "poster boy" for NRA donations would only be 3.3 percent lighter in campaign cash without them.

Again, that certainly doesn't mean the NRA isn't spending a lot of money. But the Poltifact fact-checking website puts the total amount of NRA spending since 1998 at $203 million. That figure is even smaller than it looks when you consider 30 percent of Americans, or about 100 million people, own a gun. By contrast, Wall Street and the broader financial industrial shelled out more than $1.1 billion in the 2016 election cycle alone. The financial industry employs only about six million people in total.*

The bulk of that $203 million doesn't actually go to candidates as the hysterical tweets and finger pointers seem to believe. It's spent on those "issue ads" that you see mostly on cable news channels during election years. But even if those ads are extremely influential, they are a much different animal than direct campaign donations to individual congressional and presidential candidates.

There's even a question of whether the NRA is very persuasive among actual gun owners. Fewer than 20 percent of American gun owners are even NRA members. That should tell us something about the "chicken or the egg" argument about the gun lobby. The NRA is much more likely piggybacking off the beliefs of gun owners as opposed to framing them in the first place. The real power is with those voting gun owners, not the lobby group that purports to represent them.

Some gun control advocates are wise to this fact. New America senior fellow Lee Drutman has been working to debunk the myth of the all-powerful NRA's money for several years. Beginning in 2012, he noted the NRA hadn't even made donations to a majority of members of Congress. He also made the correct designation between allegiance and influence. That is, the NRA supports candidates that already align with its philosophy as opposed to paying them to toe the line.

Former New York City mayor and media billionaire Mike Bloomberg has thus made a futile point over the years to combat the NRA's money machine. Bloomberg founded "Everytown for Gun Safety" in 2014based on matching the NRA's financial clout. It hasn't been a total political failure. But in the wake of so many mass shootings since 2014, it's also fair to say Everytown hasn't been able to shepherd any new significant national gun laws to passage either.

A much better strategy is to talk less about the NRA and focus more on resurrecting the anti-gun violence measures Americans have supported in the past. That includes beefed up policing and improved background check systems.

A misbegotten path is introducing new rules and misrepresenting them to the public. That's what happened last year when Democrats tried a proposed rule that they and most of the news media portrayed as a way to keep guns from the "mentally ill." But it really sought to put people into the federal government gun background database if they received disability payments from Social Security and received assistance to manage their benefits due to mental impairments. That's a far cry from "mentally ill." Even the ACLU and mental health advocates lined up against that idea, not just the NRA.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Our gun laws and procedures are designed to weed out anyone who might pose a risk to public safety by having a firearm. No system is perfect, but ours has resulted in maybe one mass shooting every decade,


Deja vu.

You have the same number of massacres per decade that you had before you abolished freedom.

So abolishing your freedom did not change anything.  You gave up your freedom for no reason at all.




Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, how many school shootings have you had since 1945?


Deja vu.

13 I think.




Vagabond63 said:


> We've had 1, and as a result of the massive public outcry, the laws were enacted to ban certain firearms.


Deja vu.

What a horrible and tragic loss of freedom.

You guys need to change and become more like we are here in America.




Vagabond63 said:


> Clearly our laws and procedures have managed to successfully prevent school shootings.


If so, they certainly didn't prevent any massacres.  They merely made some of the massacres be perpetrated using a different kind of weapon.

Murder victims are still just as dead when they are killed with a different kind of weapon.

But I don't think your claim is correct.  I think your rate of school shootings is the same as it was before you abolished your freedom.




Vagabond63 said:


> Controlling who has access to firearms works, end of story.


The US controls who has access to firearms too.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 7, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question: Do anyone here know if George Zimmerman was able to sell his gun? He was selling the gun he killed Treyvon Martin with to the highest bidder a few years ago? I'm just curious.











						Gun used to kill Trayvon Martin sold for $250,000: TV reports
					

George Zimmerman said he has sold the gun he used to kill unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in Florida in 2012 for $250,000, television stations in Orlando and Las Vegas reported on Friday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 7, 2022)

ItsRonnieYall said:


> You do have a very valid point and I think it would help immensely to stop mass shootings,


No.  Violating people's civil liberties for no reason won't stop any massacres.

Progressives need to find a different hobby besides harming people for fun.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> The countries mentioned have strict gun controls, which have no real effect on their citizens' "rights" that you find so "precious".


"Strict gun controls" is a meaningless term.  The US has strict gun controls too.

People in Finland are allowed to have semi-auto rifles with 30-round magazines.  They do have to provide a good reason for having such a gun, but _"so I can help defend Finland from invasion"_ is always accepted as a good reason.

Switzerland issues full-auto rifles for many people to keep at home.  People who are not issued full-auto rifles are allowed to have semi-auto rifles with 30-round magazines.

People in the three Baltic states are allowed to carry concealed handguns for self defense.  They are also allowed to have semi-auto rifles with 30-round magazines.  People who volunteer to help defend their nation from invasion are allowed to have full-auto weapons in Estonia and Lithuania.

People in the Czech Republic are allowed to carry concealed handguns for self defense.  They are also allowed to have semi-auto rifles with 30-round magazines.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 7, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Deja vu.
> 
> You have the same number of massacres per decade that you had before you abolished freedom.
> 
> ...



They had two shootings recently...one in Cumbria, one in Plymouth......he can't tell us which of their gun control laws stopped them from going into a school and shooting children....


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jul 8, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/ Nope, can't say I found a response to the first question time, after time, after time, blah blah blah.
> *A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......
> 
> Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?*





Women and the elderly are the greatest beneficiaries of carry permits.

Democrats who have facilitated 63 million abortions, claim they want to prevent law abiding citizens from having  guns, to save lives.

Then they hurry to get their checks in to Planned Parenthood, so as not to miss the organ harvest.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Gun used to kill Trayvon Martin sold for $250,000: TV reports
> 
> 
> George Zimmerman said he has sold the gun he used to kill unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in Florida in 2012 for $250,000, television stations in Orlando and Las Vegas reported on Friday.
> ...


Thank you for your response. That was a slap in the face for Treyvon's parents.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you for your response. That was a slap in the face for Treyvon's parents.




No...it was likely a way for the guy to pay for his legal team....with the insane, unjust persecution against him for shooting the violent thug.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you for your response. That was a slap in the face for Treyvon's parents.




Treyvon....?

Did you mean Trayvon?????

The one who attacked Zimmerman?????


Trayvon Martin case: He was suspended three times and ...​https://www.dailymail.co.uk › news › article-2120504
Mar 27, 2012 — The Miami Herald claims that in October, he was caught with a '_burglary tool_' - a flathead screwdriver - and 12 pieces of women's jewellery.



Reports of suspensions paint more complicated picture of ...​https://www.sun-sentinel.com › news › fl-xpm-2012-03-2...
Mar 25, 2012 — SANFORD — Miami Gardens teenager _Trayvon Martin_ was suspended from school ... described as a “_burglary tool_,” The Miami Herald has learned.



Trayvon Martin Suspended From School Three Times: Report​https://www.nbcmiami.com › news › local › trayvon-m...
Mar 27, 2012 — While activists, protesters and the parents of _Trayvon Martin_ ... jewelry and a screwdriver described as a "_burglary tool_," the report said.



Police investigated Trayvon Martin over jewelry - Boston.com​http://www.boston.com › News › Nation
Mar 27, 2012 — During a search of his backpack, the report said, campus security officers found 12 pieces of women's jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver that ...


School Report: Trayvon Once Suspended With 'Burglary Tool'​https://www.newser.com › story › school-report-trayvo...
Mar 27, 2012 — The battle over _Trayvon Martin_ continues. Now it emerges that the teen was suspended from his high school three times, including for ...




This Trayvon??????


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you for your response. That was a slap in the face for Treyvon's parents.





And, as far at the parents.....


Kimberly Klacik

@kimKBaltimore

*If your 13 year old is out stabbing people, carjacking uber drivers or running around with guns, please know... ...you are a terrible parent. It’s you. It’s not the police. Its not the politicians. It’s not the teachers. It’s you. Just you.*

9:47 PM · Apr 22, 2021·Twitter for iPhone






Poor parenting on full display.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you for your response. That was a slap in the face for Treyvon's parents.


Thug life ain't easy, yo!


----------



## Blues Man (Jul 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Total and absolute bullshit. A chinese member of the audience took offence and called the police, the singer was detained and later released without charge. In America, it's highly likely the singer would have been shot by the angry Chinese audience member.
> At least we can set off fireworks over here without risking being shot..
> 
> 
> ...


Just the fact that a person called the cops because he was offended at a Karaoke song and the police didn't tell the guy to grow up is more proof that you Brits are nothing but whiny children.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Thug life ain't easy, yo!


True dat! I hear the thug George Zimmerman is having a rough time of it since he murdered Treyvon. 
Po thang.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> True dat! I hear the thug George Zimmerman is having a rough time of it since he murdered Treyvon.
> Po thang.




He didn't murder anyone, as the actual trial showed.......but thanks for lying and proving to us what a worthless human you are...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> True dat! I hear the thug George Zimmerman is having a rough time of it since he murdered Treyvon.
> Po thang.



He shot that stupid thug in self-defense.
Trayvon hasn't attacked anyone lately, has he?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> He shot that stupid thug in self-defense.
> Trayvon hasn't attacked anyone lately, has he?


Zimmerman was stalking Treyvon, when he should have been minding his own business. When Treyvon started kicking his a** he got scared and shot him. Like a cowardly thug. IT'S NOT SELF DEFENSE WHEN YOU START THE FIGHT.
It's OK though. Thug Zimmerman is reaping what he sowed. What goes around comes around. Thug life is hard, yo.
BYE.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Zimmerman was stalking Treyvon, when he should have been minding his own business. When Treyvon started kicking his a** he got scared and shot him. Like a cowardly thug. IT'S NOT SELF DEFENSE WHEN YOU START THE FIGHT.
> It's OK though. Thug Zimmerman is reaping what he sowed. What goes around comes around. Thug life is hard, yo.
> BYE.




You did not follow the trial....you don't know what you are talking about......but, like a typical leftist, the truth, facts and reality are not your concern....pushing your agenda is all you care about.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Zimmerman was stalking Treyvon, when he should have been minding his own business. When Treyvon started kicking his a** he got scared and shot him. Like a cowardly thug. IT'S NOT SELF DEFENSE WHEN YOU START THE FIGHT.
> It's OK though. Thug Zimmerman is reaping what he sowed. What goes around comes around. Thug life is hard, yo.
> BYE.



*Zimmerman was stalking Treyvon*

Really? What was Zimmerman doing after the thug escaped?

Why did the thug come back and attack Zimmerman? 

*When Treyvon started kicking his a** he got scared and shot him.*

Yup, shot his stupid thug ass good!

*IT'S NOT SELF DEFENSE WHEN YOU START THE FIGHT.*

When did Zimmerman start the fight? Was it after Trayvon lost him? 
After Trayvon hit him from behind? After Trayvon started smashing his head on the sidewalk? LOL!

*It's OK though. Thug Zimmerman is reaping what he sowed.*

So is Trayvon, eh?


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you for your response. That was a slap in the face for Treyvon's parents.


And rightly so.

Trayvon's grave is a good place to stop and take a piss.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> True dat! I hear the thug George Zimmerman is having a rough time of it since he murdered Treyvon.
> Po thang.


Mr. Zimmerman is not a thug and has never murdered anyone.

As far as I know, Mr. Zimmerman is doing just fine.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Zimmerman was stalking Treyvon,


No he wasn't.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> when he should have been minding his own business.


Mr. Zimmerman was the captain of the neighborhood watch.  It was very much his business that Trayvon was casing homes to break into later that night after he got high on PCP.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> When Treyvon started kicking his a** he got scared and shot him. Like a cowardly thug.


Nonsense.  Self defense is not cowardly, and people who defend themselves are not thugs.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> IT'S NOT SELF DEFENSE WHEN YOU START THE FIGHT.


Trayvon started the fight.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's OK though. Thug Zimmerman is reaping what he sowed. What goes around comes around. Thug life is hard, yo.
> BYE.


As far as I know Mr. Zimmerman is doing just fine.

And as previously noted, he is not a thug.  The only thug here is Trayvon.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> IF all these things had been in place at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would it have saved any of those 19 kids and 2 teachers lives? *NO.*


With the enforcement of keeping locked doors shut they would have prevented the shooter from gaining access.  He'd have had to shoot his way through an airlock past an armed security guard.  I've seen similar set ups in sensitive office spaces.  An armed guard sits in a bulletproof kiosk with shooting slots.  Anyone entering has to enter the airlock one person at a time. Then present ID and a good reason for access to the guard. who then either denies them access through the second door or allows them to pass.  It's simple and bulletproof as it were. The key is enforcing the one point of access and exit rule.  Now at the beginning and end of the school day, all access doors would be open, but the police could schedule security coverage for those times.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> IF all these things had been in place at Robb Elementary School a few days ago, would it have saved any of those 19 kids and 2 teachers lives? *NO.*


The only reason those teachers and student were shot was because an idiot teacher took a short cut to her car and didn't make sure the door locked behind her when she came back in.  If that door was locked as was required, the shooter wouldn't have been able to access the school before being arrested or shot.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> Obviously I wasn’t referring to them. Do mass shooters break into peoples houses often?


No because then they wouldn't be MASS SHOOTERS.  But ordinary criminals do it hundreds of times every day.  Thousands of innocent residents are robbed, raped and /or killed in home invasions every year.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

Circe said:


> Sometimes in life we make an oopsy -------------


The problem is that security violations can't ever be seen as an "oopsie".  Security and safety rules have to be ruthlessly enforced to be effective. Violations have to have teeth and constantly be seen enforced to be effective.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Mr. Zimmerman is not a thug and has never murdered anyone.
> 
> As far as I know, Mr. Zimmerman is doing just fine.


I hear he is broke and nobody will hire him. That's why he sold that gun. Serve him right. He is a thug.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> And rightly so.
> 
> Trayvon's grave is a good place to stop and take a piss.


I hope your grave site is not used for the same purpose.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> No he wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So why can't your boy Zimmerman find a job? And why does he like to pull guns on women? His girlfriend made a police report on him for threatening her with a gun.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Kids in schools are usually shot by other kids.  I gave a gun law solution to that above.
> 
> Semi-automatic rifles sold publicly are not military grade.  The shooter in Las Vegas brought 6 of them with him because he had modified them to be MORE like an automatic military grade weapon.  When they stormed his hotel suite -- they found 2 or 3 of them COMPLETELY ruined with the barrels melted and jammed up.  AR does not stand for "assault rifle" -- look it up.
> 
> ...


The democrats think January 6th was an insurrection.  What would they think of a half million armed NRA and GOA members peacefully marching on the Capital?  Their 1/6 "insurrection" was a few hundred unarmed idiots showing their asses.  I can easily see demonstrations that size or larger if the government ever manages to get the mass of gun owners seriously annoyed.  At this point we are willing to work within the system because we still believe in it.  The minute we lose faith, there would be problems that would probably start with tar and feathers for congressional leaders who weren't evacuated quickly enough and go up from there.  Conservatives are patient, we worked for fifty years to overturn a bad SCOTUS decision, but patience has limits.  One thing to think about, the majority of the volunteer military veterans are conservatives, it's not like the old days when liberals were drafted to serve.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> With the enforcement of keeping locked doors shut they would have prevented the shooter from gaining access.  He'd have had to shoot his way through an airlock past an armed security guard.  I've seen similar set ups in sensitive office spaces.  An armed guard sits in a bulletproof kiosk with shooting slots.  Anyone entering has to enter the airlock one person at a time. Then present ID and a good reason for access to the guard. who then either denies them access through the second door or allows them to pass.  It's simple and bulletproof as it were. The key is enforcing the one point of access and exit rule.  Now at the beginning and end of the school day, all access doors would be open, but the police could schedule security coverage for those times.


I am not discussing the Uvalde school shooting anymore. I've said all I want to say on that subject.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> It pains me to say it -- *but I cannot BEAR the grief to know that a TROUBLED teen with obvious warning signs CAN LEGALLY purchase and own. * But all this is because of societal/family/moral decay and the fact that people are not doing their jobs.
> 
> If the teen STOLE the weapon from parents and parents KNEW or if the parents PURCHASED the weapon for a kid that was under psychiatric care (like the shooter Sandy Hook school)  --* I dont feel a lot of personal responsibility to change gun laws.*  Just use the law -- HOLD these parents responsible.
> 
> *Parents ALSO need that leverage.* As dealing with mental case child is difficult enough with the cutting/suicide/outbursts/conflict without having to ASSURE this future criminal doesn't LEGALLY obtain firearms.


Even "normal" kids will try to use leverage against their parents.  My daughter came home one day after talking with her friends and claimed our rules amounted to child abuse and if we didn't let her do whatever she wanted (AT 14!!!!) she was going to call Child Protective Services and report us.  I picked up the phone and asked information for the number and dialed it and handed the phone to her.  That ended that forever.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I am not discussing the Uvalde school shooting anymore. I've said all I want to say on that subject.


Yeah, because I just showed you how easily it could have been prevented WITHOUT banning any guns.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Yeah, because I just showed you how easily it could have been prevented WITHOUT banning any guns.


Have a nice evening. 😊


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

flacaltenn said:


> Hey trollfish -- It's ALREADY MANDATED in most states that *outside* doors remain locked during classes. And it's drilled into teachers to LOCK the classroom doors when any intrusion alarm is given.
> 
> That's why they call it a "LOCK DOWN" alert that goes out to the schools automatically bullwinkle.


And Uvalde happened because that rule wasn't enforced, and a teacher snuck out to her car.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I hear he is broke and nobody will hire him.


Says who?




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Serve him right.


No it wouldn't.

A just outcome would be if Trayvon's scumbag parents contracted a horrible disease and followed Trayvon to the grave in short order.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> He is a thug.


No he isn't.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> I hope your grave site is not used for the same purpose.


I'm a good person.  So is Mr. Zimmerman.

Trayvon was an evil scumbag, and his parents are evil scumbags.

There is a great difference between a good person and an evil scumbag.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> So why can't your boy Zimmerman find a job?


Who says he can't?




Ms. Turquoise said:


> And why does he like to pull guns on women? His girlfriend made a police report on him for threatening her with a gun.


Says who?


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

TemplarKormac said:


> Not really. In fact, it could do enough damage to the lock to keep it from opening.


Oddly enough I was watching an old rerun of Mythbusters last night and it was about shooting the locks off doors.  9mm and .357 pistols weren't powerful enough to break a Master padlock or break a lockset, but a shotgun shooting a slug destroyed both as did an M-1 Garand.  An AR-15 has about a third of the muzzle energy of an M-1 and three times the muzzle energy of a 9mm and two times that of a .357.  An AR-15 MIGHT blow open a lock, but the military in the Middle East used 12 Gauge shotguns shooting slugs for the job despite every soldier carrying a M-4 chambered for the same .223/5.56mm the AR-15 fires.  I doubt teh Uvalde shooter would have been able to shoot a lock off a door especially since a police sharpshooter was already on scene and requesting permission to shoot the intruder BEFORE he got into the school.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Ben John: Extremist ordered to read books is jailed
> 
> 
> Ben John, who was told to read Austen and Shakespeare, has his original suspended sentence quashed.
> ...


Hell, I've had a copy in one of my bookcases since 1970.  I'd bet good money that you couldn't find an active or ex-EOD tech who doesn't have at least one copy.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Thank you for your response. That was a slap in the face for Treyvon's parents.


Considering they raised a "kid" who was a burglar, bully and racist/homophobe and who ambushed and attacked a man for following him down the sidewalk at night, my sympathy for Martin"s parents is extremely limited.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 8, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Considering they raised a "kid" who was a burglar, bully and racist/homophobe and who ambushed and attacked a man for following him down the sidewalk at night, my sympathy for Martin"s parents is extremely limited.


What is your opinion of Dylann Roof's parents? Payton Gendron's parents? 
Or the parents of any of the mass shooters? What kind of parent raises that kind of killer?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Even "normal" kids will try to use leverage against their parents.  My daughter came home one day after talking with her friends and claimed our rules amounted to child abuse and if we didn't let her do whatever she wanted (AT 14!!!!) she was going to call Child Protective Services and report us.  I picked up the phone and asked information for the number and dialed it and handed the phone to her.  That ended that forever.



Kids are little insurrection conspirators. They trade plans and tactics over the lunch room table.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 8, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What is your opinion of Dylann Roof's parents? Payton Gendron's parents?
> Or the parents of any of the mass shooters? What kind of parent raises that kind of killer?


You're the one who started wishing bad fortune on good people.  Everyone else is merely responding in kind to your cruelty.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What is your opinion of Dylann Roof's parents? Payton Gendron's parents?
> Or the parents of any of the mass shooters? What kind of parent raises that kind of killer?


Looks like AZawhaile can't answer this question after making the ugly comments about Treyvon. It figures.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Looks like AZawhaile can't answer this question after making the ugly comments about Treyvon. It figures.


In some cases the parents are responsible in some they are not. Racist views are normally expressed at home so I suspect in roofs case I would say his parents are to blame the other fellow I dont know.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> In some cases the parents are responsible in some they are not. Racist views are normally expressed at home so I suspect in roofs case I would say his parents are to blame the other fellow I dont know.


Don't sugarcoat it. Their parents probably were racists. It had to be more than being radicalized on the internet. Their upbringing no doubt taught them to be xenophobic.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Don't sugarcoat it. Their parents probably were racists. It had to be more than being radicalized on the internet. Their upbringing no doubt taught them to be xenophobic.


I'm sure Trayvon's no good parents are the reason why he was planning to get high on PCP and break into people's homes later that night, and are why he tried to murder the captain of the neighborhood watch when he got found out.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> What is your opinion of Dylann Roof's parents? Payton Gendron's parents?
> Or the parents of any of the mass shooters? What kind of parent raises that kind of killer?


/——/ Same kind of parent that raises Hunter Biden.


----------



## Death Angel (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That tells me a lot about you, EvilCat Breath.


So, free speech for thee, but not for me

The NRA has NOTHING to do with mass shootings. Just more liberal hysteria


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It NEEDS to fly. How many more kids must die before we do something?


/----/ How many more unarmed people must be killed before you gun grabbers realize being unarmed isn't the answer?


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jul 9, 2022)

EvilCat Breath said:


> The NRA is one of the great American institutions.  I am proud to be a member.


/----/Me too, a lifetime member since 1985.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> I'm sure Trayvon's no good parents are the reason why he was planning to get high on PCP and break into people's homes later that night, and are why he tried to murder the captain of the neighborhood watch when he got found out.


So to your shit for brains mind what Treyvon might have done is equal to what Dylann Roof and Payton Gendron did do?  You say Treyvon was looking to break into a house when there is no proof of that. So it was OK for Thug Zimmerman to kill him.
Goes to show what a dumbazz you are.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

One thing I've noticed about this 2nd Amendment section is that lots of the posters here are leg humpers who like to gang up on people they don't agree with. I guess they think ganging up on folks will intimidate them and make them change their minds.
Or they like to show out in front of their friends. "Did you see what I told her?" I think Open Mouth Bolt is a show-off. He needs approval from his fellow leg humpers. 
Sad to see grown-ups with that childish ignorant mindset.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Death Angel said:


> So, free speech for thee, but not for me
> 
> The NRA has NOTHING to do with mass shootings. Just more liberal hysteria


Paying politicians to do your bidding is NOT free speech.


----------



## Blues Man (Jul 9, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Hell, I've had a copy in one of my bookcases since 1970.  I'd bet good money that you couldn't find an active or ex-EOD tech who doesn't have at least one copy.


Exactly.

The UK is committed to control the thinking of it's people.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Paying politicians to do your bidding is NOT free speech.


/----/ The hell it isn't. 








						Lobbying, Free Speech and The First Amendment by Nicholas Provenzo | Capitalism Magazine
					

Charles Krauthammer makes a trenchant argument in defense of a perennial whipping boy: Everyone knows the First Amendment protects freedom of religion, speech, press and assembly. How many remember that, in addition, the First Amendment protects a fifth freedom -- to lobby?Of course it doesn't...



					www.capitalismmagazine.com
				



Everyone knows the First Amendment protects freedom of religion, speech, press and assembly. How many remember that, in addition, the First Amendment protects a fifth freedom — to lobby?

Of course it doesn’t use the word lobby.* It calls it the right “to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”* Lobbyists are people hired to do that for you, so that you can actually stay home with the kids and remain gainfully employed rather than spend your life in the corridors of Washington.

To hear the candidates in this presidential campaign, you’d think lobbying is just one notch below waterboarding, a black art practiced by the great malefactors of wealth to keep the middle class in a vise and loose upon the nation every manner of scourge: oil dependency, greenhouse gases, unpayable mortgages and those tiny entrees you get at French restaurants.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Looks like AZawhaile can't answer this question after making the ugly comments about Treyvon. It figures.




Likely they came from broken homes......the 4th of July shooter had 21 police visits to his home, the parents were a mess........


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> So to your shit for brains mind what Treyvon might have done is equal to what Dylann Roof and Payton Gendron did do?  You say Treyvon was looking to break into a house when there is no proof of that. So it was OK for Thug Zimmerman to kill him.
> Goes to show what a dumbazz you are.




*looking to break into a house when there is no proof of that. So it was OK for Thug Zimmerman to kill him.*

*How stupid are you?   really.

Martin wasn't shot because he was casing houses....he was shot because even though he was free and clear of Zimmerman and could have simply gone to his fathers townhouse, he ran back, circled around and violently attacked Ziimmerman.....and was beating his head against the concrete sidewalk, putting Zimmerman in immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm...

That is why he was shot, you dumb ass...*


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> You're the one who started wishing bad fortune on good people.  Everyone else is merely responding in kind to your cruelty.


My cruelty? Didn't you speak of pissing on Treyvon Martin's grave? 
How old are you?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/ The hell it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe every politician should be required to wear a jacket with the logos of all the sponsors he/she is receiving money from. (Like the jackets race car drivers wear). This way citizens will know who is pulling their strings.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> So to your shit for brains mind what Treyvon might have done is equal to what Dylann Roof and Payton Gendron did do?  You say Treyvon was looking to break into a house when there is no proof of that. So it was OK for Thug Zimmerman to kill him.
> Goes to show what a dumbazz you are.


He didnt kill him because he was going to break into a house he killed him in self defense after the kid started pounding his head into a cement walk way.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Paying politicians to do your bidding is NOT free speech.


so you are opposed to the Teachers Unions donating to politicians? And the Trade Unions and the billionaires?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He didnt kill him because he was going to break into a house he killed him in self defense after the kid started pounding his head into a cement walk way.


If Zimmerman had left Treyvon alone and minded his own business, I don't think he would have gotten into a fight with Treyvon. It's like he picked a fight with him by harassing/following him, and then shot him.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I believe every politician should be required to wear a jacket with the logos of all the sponsors he/she is receiving money from. (Like the jackets race car drivers wear). This way citizens will know who is pulling their strings.




That is the first thing you have posted that makes sense.....really good sense...........great idea....and when they are in debates, maybe there should be a thing at the bottom of the screen listing their donors as well...at least the big ones.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If Zimmerman had left Treyvon alone and minded his own business, I don't think he would have gotten into a fight with Treyvon. It's like he picked a fight with him by harassing/following him, and then shot him.




If you had followed the trial you would know that Zimmerman lost contact with martin in the townhouse complex.......martin told his friend on the phone he had lost zimmerman...at that point, the confrontation was entirely the fault of martin, not zimmerman.

Martin circled back and ambushed Zimmerman....zimmerman was returning to the parking lot to meet the police........


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> so you are opposed to the Teachers Unions donating to politicians? And the Trade Unions and the billionaires?


Teacher's Unions, Trade Unions and billionaires (I hope) don't protect instruments of death (guns) like the NRA does.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If Zimmerman had left Treyvon alone and minded his own business, I don't think he would have gotten into a fight with Treyvon. It's like he picked a fight with him by harassing/following him, and then shot him.




No.......he only shot martin when martin was banging his head against the cement sidewalk......which is deadly force......so zimmerman was justified in shooting martin at that point.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Teacher's Unions, Trade Unions and billionaires (I hope) don't protect instruments of death (guns) like the NRA does.




Americans use their guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives.......that is more than are taken by criminals using guns illegally......so, in fact, guns save lives........

Again, the NRA doesn't even make the top 10 of political donors....you nitwit....


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If Zimmerman had left Treyvon alone and minded his own business, I don't think he would have gotten into a fight with Treyvon. It's like he picked a fight with him by harassing/following him, and then shot him.


He quit following him when the dispatcher told him too. The kid was home all he had to do was go inside, instead he circled back and attacked Zimmerman who was returning to his car.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Teacher's Unions, Trade Unions and billionaires (I hope) don't protect instruments of death (guns) like the NRA does.


so only your approved lobbies are ok. Got it.


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> so only your approved lobbies are ok. Got it.




These leftists know so little about so very much....


----------



## Blues Man (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Teacher's Unions, Trade Unions and billionaires (I hope) don't protect instruments of death (guns) like the NRA does.


So you actually think that teachers and trade unions have no members that believe they have a right to own firearms?


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So you actually think that teachers and trade unions have no members that believe they have a right to own firearms?




Good point.....I would like to see a comparison of the NRA or other 2nd Amendment groups and trade union membership........


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He quit following him when the dispatcher told him too. The kid was home all he had to do was go inside, instead he circled back and attacked Zimmerman who was returning to his car.


That's not the way I heard it. The dispatcher told Zimmerman at the very beginning not to follow Treyvon. But, Zimmerman followed him anyway. Why? Would he have followed a White kid the same way?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So you actually think that teachers and trade unions have no members that believe they have a right to own firearms?


I don't know and that wasn't the question I was asked.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He quit following him when the dispatcher told him too. The kid was home all he had to do was go inside, instead he circled back and attacked Zimmerman who was returning to his car.


You can disagree all you want it is a matter of PUBLIC RECORD from the trial


----------



## 2aguy (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That's not the way I heard it. The dispatcher told Zimmerman at the very beginning not to follow Treyvon. But, Zimmerman followed him anyway. Why? Would he have followed a White kid the same way?




No....the dispatcher stated Zimmerman didn't need to follow martin and Zimmerman said okay, and began to walk back to the parking lot to meet the police....he had already lost contact and sight of martin at that point........

The Townhouses had experienced a series of break ins, and zimmerman was simply following martin to tell the police where he was......the police were already on their way...

Martin lost zimmerman.....stated this to his friend on the phone.....he then decided to beat up zimmerman, so he circled back, waited in the shadows and jumped zimmerman.....

The shooting, at that point, was all on martin.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He quit following him when the dispatcher told him too. The kid was home all he had to do was go inside, instead he circled back and attacked Zimmerman who was returning to his car.


And---what right did Zimmerman have to force Treyvon to stay indoors? Treyvon had done nothing wrong.
Turn the situation around. What if Treyvon was following/harassing Zimmerman? How do you think he would have reacted to being followed by a Black teenager?


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I believe every politician should be required to wear a jacket with the logos of all the sponsors he/she is receiving money from. (Like the jackets race car drivers wear). This way citizens will know who is pulling their strings.


/——-/ A touching sentiment but silly. BTW, we had a guy in the White House who didn’t owe anything to the lobbyist, but he had to go. Too many mean tweets.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——-/ A touching sentiment but silly. BTW, we had a guy in the White House who didn’t owe anything to the lobbyist, but he had to go. Too many mean tweets.


Yes, but he wasn't fit to be President---a blind person could see that. He is a racist, miscygonist sore loser. 
He still can't accept the fact that he lost in 2020.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

I have often wondered how the Martin/ Zimmerman case would have turned out if the races were switched. 
What if Zimmerman was a 30 year old Black man and Treyvon was a 17 year old  White kid? Would you all still feel the same way? Do you think Zimmerman would have been found not guilty? 
I doubt it. If Zimmerman was Black he'd be sitting in prison right now.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> One thing I've noticed about this 2nd Amendment section is that lots of the posters here are leg humpers who like to gang up on people they don't agree with. I guess they think ganging up on folks will intimidate them and make them change their minds.



Ganging up on people? Sounds scary!

Is it more scary than when actual thugs gang up on someone in real life?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If Zimmerman had left Treyvon alone and minded his own business, I don't think he would have gotten into a fight with Treyvon. It's like he picked a fight with him by harassing/following him, and then shot him.



Zimmerman didn't "get into a fight" with Trayvon, the stupid thug attacked Zimmerman.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Ganging up on people? Sounds scary!
> 
> Is it more scary than when actual thugs gang up on someone in real life?


I've never been ganged up on in real life. Well---there was the time some mean girls bullied me in elementary school.  Does that count?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> And---what right did Zimmerman have to force Treyvon to stay indoors? Treyvon had done nothing wrong.
> Turn the situation around. What if Treyvon was following/harassing Zimmerman? How do you think he would have reacted to being followed by a Black teenager?


LOL you are such a retard, there is no law against "following" people. And how you got to harassment is anyone's guess. Martin had no right to attack Zimmerman at ALL.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That's not the way I heard it. The dispatcher told Zimmerman at the very beginning not to follow Treyvon. But, Zimmerman followed him anyway. Why?



Little criminal was acting like a criminal. Why not follow him?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> And---what right did Zimmerman have to force Treyvon to stay indoors? Treyvon had done nothing wrong.
> Turn the situation around. What if Treyvon was following/harassing Zimmerman? How do you think he would have reacted to being followed by a Black teenager?



*And---what right did Zimmerman have to force Treyvon to stay indoors? *

Force? LOL!

*Treyvon had done nothing wrong.*

Until he attacked Zimmerman.

*What if Treyvon was following/harassing Zimmerman? How do you think he would have reacted to being followed by a Black teenager?*

He probably would have called 911. If Trayvon felt threatened, felt he was being stalked by a "creepy cracka", he could have called 911 while going home. He might still be alive today. Probably in jail, but still alive.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I've never been ganged up on in real life. Well---there was the time some mean girls bullied me in elementary school.  Does that count?



Did the mean girls attack you from behind and pound your head on the pavement?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Sybrina Fulton, Treyvon Martin's Mom, was asked how she felt after George Zimmerman was found Not Guilty of murdering her son.
She said "It's OK. God is still on His throne".
She said so much with that one simple statement. I pray that  I could be that gracious under the same circumstances.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL you are such a retard, there is no law against "following" people. And how you got to harassment is anyone's guess. Martin had no right to attack Zimmerman at ALL.


How would you like to be followed by a complete stranger?  I wouldn't like it at all.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Question for the board: If you lived in a homogeneous society, would you feel safe enough to live without guns? Would you feel like your life and home is more secure if everybody around looked like you?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Did the mean girls attack you from behind and pound your head on the pavement?


No.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *And---what right did Zimmerman have to force Treyvon to stay indoors? *
> 
> Force? LOL!
> 
> ...


Do adult White males feel they have the authority to follow Black males that they are suspicious of?
I believe those 3 guys who followed and murdered Ahmaud Arbery felt that way. (sorry to change the story). I believe Zimmerman getting away with killing Treyvon gave those 3 men the confidence to do what they did. They just knew they were going to get away with that killing.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Do adult White males feel they have the authority to follow Black males that they are suspicious of?
> I believe those 3 guys who followed and murdered Ahmaud Arbery felt that way. (sorry to change the story). I believe Zimmerman getting away with killing Treyvon gave those 3 men the confidence to do what they did. They just knew they were going to get away with that killing.



*Do adult White males feel they have the authority to follow Black males that they are suspicious of?*

Do you think adult Hispanic males aren't allowed to follow Black males that they are suspicious of?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Do adult White males feel they have the authority to follow Black males that they are suspicious of?*
> 
> Do you think adult Hispanic males aren't allowed to follow Black males that they are suspicious of?


I live in a town that is about 80% Hispanic. They are peaceful easy going people---they don't follow or harass anybody. 
Most of the police officers are Hispanic too. No problem with them ever.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I live in a town that is about 80% Hispanic. They are peaceful easy going people---they don't follow or harass anybody.
> Most of the police officers are Hispanic too. No problem with them ever.



Not a lot of Trayvons walking around, casing houses at night?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Not a lot of Trayvons walking around, casing houses at night?


If there was I'm sure a REAL policemen would be called to take care of the situation.
No fake wannabe policemen like Zimmerman would be needed.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If there was I'm sure a REAL policemen would be called to take care of the situation.
> No fake wannabe policemen like Zimmerman would be needed.



Sounds awesome!

So why didn't Trayvon just run home after he lost Zimmerman?


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

Another cruel thing Zimmerman did was post a picture of Treyvon lying dead on the ground, on the internet.
That was just heartless. Ugly. Vile.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

One of the men who helped murder Ahmuad Arbrey stood over him while he was bleeding to death and called him a "damn n*****". 
It was just like an old fashioned lynching. Ahmuad hadn't done anything to those men. He hadn't broken any law. They killed him for NOTHING. 
So tragic.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> So to your shit for brains mind


You engage in name-calling because you are too stupid to make an intelligent argument.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> You say Treyvon was looking to break into a house when there is no proof of that.


There is ample proof of that.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> So it was OK for Thug Zimmerman to kill him.


Mr. Zimmerman is not a thug.  The only thugs here are you and Trayvon.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Goes to show what a dumbazz you are.


You're the only one here who has to resort to name-calling because you are too stupid to produce an intelligent argument.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> One thing I've noticed about this 2nd Amendment section is that lots of the posters here are leg humpers who like to gang up on people they don't agree with. I guess they think ganging up on folks will intimidate them and make them change their minds.


What you notice is people correcting you because everything you say is a lie.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> I think Open Mouth Bolt is a show-off.


You engage in childish name-calling because you are too stupid to come up with an intelligent argument.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> He needs approval from his fellow leg humpers.
> Sad to see grown-ups with that childish ignorant mindset.


Sad to see stupid people engaging in childish name-calling.  There should be an IQ requirement for the ability to post on the internet.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> My cruelty?


Yep.  It fits well with your stupidity and childish name-calling too.  It is a rather toxic combination.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Didn't you speak of pissing on Treyvon Martin's grave?


Yep.  As previously stated (but I'm sure you completely missed), everyone was responding in kind to your cruelty.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> How old are you?


That is none of your business.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Teacher's Unions, Trade Unions and billionaires (I hope) don't protect instruments of death (guns) like the NRA does.


So I see that you are a hypocrite as well.

I am not surprised.

What the NRA protects is our civil liberties.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> so only your approved lobbies are ok. Got it.


Progressives really are fascists.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Another cruel thing Zimmerman did was post a picture of Treyvon lying dead on the ground, on the internet.
> That was just heartless. Ugly. Vile.


A completely justified response to all the cruelty directed at him.

If you don't like it, stop dishing it out.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> I live in a town that is about 80% Hispanic. They are peaceful easy going people---they don't follow or harass anybody.
> Most of the police officers are Hispanic too. No problem with them ever.


Is that why you lie about Mr. Zimmerman's ethnicity?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> How would you like to be followed by a complete stranger?  I wouldn't like it at all.


you don't get the right to attack people because you don't like something nor to try and seriously injury them or kill them.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Paying politicians to do your bidding is NOT free speech.


Not true.

Also not what the NRA does.


----------



## Ms. Turquoise (Jul 9, 2022)

OK friends. My above post is post # 1,000. I didn't think this thread would reach that many posts---none of my other threads have. I am gratified. 
Now I am really, truly NOT coming back to post anything else here. I'll read other people's posts, but that's all.
Thank you for helping me reach this milestone. Even if you didn't always agree with me, thank you anyway. 
Thread began: May 27, 2022.
Today's date: July 9, 2022.
1,000 posts.
Have a nice day!


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If Zimmerman had left Treyvon alone and minded his own business, I don't think he would have gotten into a fight with Treyvon. It's like he picked a fight with him by harassing/following him, and then shot him.


Wrong again.  Mr. Zimmerman kept his distance and never approached Trayvon.


----------



## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> That's not the way I heard it. The dispatcher told Zimmerman at the very beginning not to follow Treyvon. But, Zimmerman followed him anyway.


Wrong again.  The dispatcher merely warned Mr. Zimmerman that following him was a very bad idea.  And Mr. Zimmerman took the dispatcher's advice and stopped following him.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Why?


Why do you lie about what happened?




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Would he have followed a White kid the same way?


Sure, if he saw that white kid casing houses to break into later on after the kid was high on PCP.

Mr. Zimmerman was the captain of the neighborhood watch.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> OK friends. My above post is post # 1,000. I didn't think this thread would reach that many posts---none of my other threads have. I am gratified.
> Now I am really, truly NOT coming back to post anything else here. I'll read other people's posts, but that's all.
> Thank you for helping me reach this milestone. Even if you didn't always agree with me, thank you anyway.
> Thread began: May 27, 2022.
> ...



Run away!!!

If only Trayvon had done the same.........


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## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> And---what right did Zimmerman have to force Treyvon to stay indoors?


There was no attempt to force Trayvon to stay inside.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Treyvon had done nothing wrong.


Nothing besides casing homes to break into later that night when he was high on PCP.  And then trying to murder the captain of the neighborhood watch.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> Turn the situation around. What if Treyvon was following/harassing Zimmerman? How do you think he would have reacted to being followed by a Black teenager?


There was no such harassment.


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## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Do adult White males feel they have the authority to follow Black males that they are suspicious of?


People are allowed to follow whoever they want to follow.




Ms. Turquoise said:


> I believe those 3 guys who followed and murdered Ahmaud Arbery felt that way. (sorry to change the story). I believe Zimmerman getting away with killing Treyvon gave those 3 men the confidence to do what they did. They just knew they were going to get away with that killing.


Those poor guys should have gotten good lawyers from the start (ideally from one of the concealed carry insurers).  And they should never have released that video.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> OK friends. My above post is post # 1,000. I didn't think this thread would reach that many posts---none of my other threads have. I am gratified.
> Now I am really, truly NOT coming back to post anything else here. I'll read other people's posts, but that's all.
> Thank you for helping me reach this milestone. Even if you didn't always agree with me, thank you anyway.
> Thread began: May 27, 2022.
> ...


got your ass handed to you so running way I see. By the way Zimmerman is NOT white he is Hispanic.


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## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If there was I'm sure a REAL policemen would be called to take care of the situation.
> No fake wannabe policemen like Zimmerman would be needed.


Actually, neighborhood watches are a great help to the police all across the nation.


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## Open Bolt (Jul 9, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Ahmuad hadn't done anything to those men. He hadn't broken any law. They killed him for NOTHING.


Wrong again.  They killed the jogger guy because he violently charged at one of them.


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## Blues Man (Jul 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> Question for the board: If you lived in a homogeneous society, would you feel safe enough to live without guns? Would you feel like your life and home is more secure if everybody around looked like you?




I would own a gun no matter where I lived


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## Blues Man (Jul 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> If there was I'm sure a REAL policemen would be called to take care of the situation.
> No fake wannabe policemen like Zimmerman would be needed.


Except for the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled that police j=have no legal obligation to come to anyone's aid.

Do you want to bet your life on help that might never come?


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## Blues Man (Jul 10, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> It's what mass shooters usually use to kill people.


The VA tech shooter used 2 hand guns are those "assault " rifles too?


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## Blues Man (Jul 10, 2022)

Hellbilly said:


> It would appear some people think their 2nd Amendment rights are more important than children’s lives.


It would appear some people think that banning people who would never commit a school shooting from having a particular rifle will stop school shootings.


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## Vagabond63 (Jul 11, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/ Nope, can't say I found a response to the first question time, after time, after time, blah blah blah.
> *A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......
> 
> Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?*


Then you clearly haven't looked.


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## Vagabond63 (Jul 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Over 56 years?
> 
> Meanwhile, you Europeans murdered 1,000,000 children in 6 years.........
> 
> ...


So you are really trying to equate World War 2 in Europe and one of the most evil Right wing regimes that ever existed with "peacetime" America? 

You need to take your meds.

Whether Europeans were all armed to the teeth, they would not have stopped the Nazi war machine. A .38 pistol is of little to no use against a Stuka or artillery, or for that matter, the disproportionate massive reprisals that resulted in any act of resistance to the Nazi occupiers.


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## Vagabond63 (Jul 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And what keeps those 700,000 gun owners from using their guns to murder children in schools? Please, show us which law keeps that from happening, considering two mass public shootings have happened since the gun ban and confiscation in Britain..


Seems I need to keep repeating myself again, because it's just not penetrating into your fantasy world. No law in existance has never been broken. The purpose is to minimise the possibility of such events, and in that respect our gun control laws have been very effective. You seem indifferent to children being shot in schools because so "few" have been killed in 56 years, well after Dunblane and 18 dead, we've not had another school shooting since. One was enough for a civilised society, clearly America has a long way to go to achieve a similar level of civlisation, if that's what you people think.


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## Vagabond63 (Jul 11, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Just the fact that a person called the cops because he was offended at a Karaoke song and the police didn't tell the guy to grow up is more proof that you Brits are nothing but whiny children.


They only "whiny children" are the gun crazies that go into a meltdown when adults try to restrict how they can play with their "toys".


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## Vagabond63 (Jul 11, 2022)

Ms. Turquoise said:


> One thing I've noticed about this 2nd Amendment section is that lots of the posters here are leg humpers who like to gang up on people they don't agree with. I guess they think ganging up on folks will intimidate them and make them change their minds.
> Or they like to show out in front of their friends. "Did you see what I told her?" I think Open Mouth Bolt is a show-off. He needs approval from his fellow leg humpers.
> Sad to see grown-ups with that childish ignorant mindset.


Usually when someone puts up a valid argument they are unable to refute. You just get a torrent of BS responses that try to deflect from the original argument and loose the valid point in a torrent of manure.


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## Blues Man (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> They only "whiny children" are the gun crazies that go into a meltdown when adults try to restrict how they can play with their "toys".


Once again you flaunt your ignorance of American gun laws.


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## Cellblock2429 (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Then you clearly haven't looked.


/——-/ LOL. You sound like a third grader telling the teacher the dog ate your homework.


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## Vagabond63 (Jul 11, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——-/ LOL. You sound like a third grader telling the teacher the dog ate your homework.


Like I said, you clearly haven't bothered to look. It's OK, I'll wait. In fact I sound like a colledge professor, mentoring a particularly lazy and/or stupid student.


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## Cellblock2429 (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Like I said, you clearly haven't bothered to look. It's OK, I'll wait. In fact I sound like a colledge professor, mentoring a particularly lazy and/or stupid student.


/——/ BWHAHAHAHA BWHAHAHAHA


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## 2aguy (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So you are really trying to equate World War 2 in Europe and one of the most evil Right wing regimes that ever existed with "peacetime" America?
> 
> You need to take your meds.
> 
> Whether Europeans were all armed to the teeth, they would not have stopped the Nazi war machine. A .38 pistol is of little to no use against a Stuka or artillery, or for that matter, the disproportionate massive reprisals that resulted in any act of resistance to the Nazi occupiers.




No....just reminding you twits that this actually happened....in modern times...this isn't a medieval warlord sacking a castle.....in a point in European history with modern, democratic institutions, the rule of law, universities, philosophy, science......the governments of Europe murdered 15 million people....in just 6 years........

As to stopping the nazis.....you stop them from beating, and killing their way to power in the first place.....you don't have a situation where the brown shirts, blm and antifa....errrr....I mean, the brown shirts....can beat and murder people who speak against them........when you allow them to beat, burn and loot the businesses and people who oppose them, it keeps others from speaking up or opposing them in the first place, which allows them to take power in the first place....

As to the other countries of Europe....one country wasn't invaded by the socialists in Germany...Switzerland.....

Why?

They had a population that was armed to the teeth, unlike France and the other countries that took guns away from their people after World War 1 to make them safer....

THE SWISS WERE PREPARED TO FIGHT FACISM TO THE BITTER END | FRONTLINE | PBS

*That is why the Nazis despised Switzerland. Joseph Goebbels called Switzerland "this stinking little state" where "sentiment has turned very much against us." Adolf Hitler decided that "all the rubbish of small nations still existing in Europe must be liquidated," even if it meant he would later "be attacked as the 'Butcher of the Swiss.'"*
*
The 1940 Nazi invasion plan, Operation Tannenbaum, was not executed, and SS Oberst Hermann Bohme's 1943 memorandum warned that an invasion of Switzerland would be too costly because every man was armed and trained to shoot. This did not stop the Gestapo from preparing lists of Swiss to be liquidated once the Nazis overran the country.
*
*The other European nations were easily toppled and had little means to wage a partisan war against the occupation. Once their standing armies were defeated, the governments capitulated and the populaces were defenseless.*
*
Only in Switzerland was the entire populace armed and prepared to wage a relentless guerrilla war against an invader. When the war began in 1939, Switzerland mobilized 435,000 citizen soldiers out of a population of 4.2 million. Production figures for Swiss service rifles, which had firepower equal to those of the Germans, demonstrate an ample supply of small arms. Swiss militiamen were instructed to disregard any alleged "official" surrender as enemy propaganda and, if necessary, to fight individually. This meant that a nation of sharpshooters would be sniping at German soldiers at long ranges from every mountain.
*
*While neutral, Switzerland was prepared to fight a Nazi invasion to the end. The celebrated Swiss Gen. Henri Guisan developed the strategy known as defense du reduit--an initial opposition followed by a retreat into the Alps, where a relentless war to the death would be waged. Most Swiss strongly opposed Nazism. Death sentences were issued for fifth-column activities, and proclamations against anti-Semitism were passed at various official levels. There was no Holocaust on Swiss soil, something that can not be said for France, the Netherlands, Poland or most of Europe.*


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## 2aguy (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Seems I need to keep repeating myself again, because it's just not penetrating into your fantasy world. No law in existance has never been broken. The purpose is to minimise the possibility of such events, and in that respect our gun control laws have been very effective. You seem indifferent to children being shot in schools because so "few" have been killed in 56 years, well after Dunblane and 18 dead, we've not had another school shooting since. One was enough for a civilised society, clearly America has a long way to go to achieve a similar level of civlisation, if that's what you people think.



No.....your gun control laws didn't do any such thing.......you had one school shooting before you banned guns, and the only reason you didn't have two more so far, is the shooters didn't decide to target your schools.....they attacked places in Cumbria and Plymouth....

You didn't have schools shootings before you banned guns and then after, none of your gun laws would stop the next one.....

You live in a country where your nuts haven't decided to target your schools....you should hope that continues...


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## 2aguy (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Usually when someone puts up a valid argument they are unable to refute. You just get a torrent of BS responses that try to deflect from the original argument and loose the valid point in a torrent of manure.




And While we wait.....how about answering these questions....

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
-----

A woman in Britain wants a gun to keep herself from being raped, beaten and murdered.........in her home and on the street....the British government tells her this is not a "good reason" to own a gun, so she doesn't get to have a gun....

A wealthy member of the House of Lords wants to take some of his rich drinking buddies bird hunting on one of his many private estates....he easily gets a gun permit because this is considered a "good reason" to have a gun.

Does this make sense to you....


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## Cellblock2429 (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Seems I need to keep repeating myself again, because it's just not penetrating into your fantasy world. No law in existance has never been broken. The purpose is to minimise the possibility of such events, and in that respect our gun control laws have been very effective. You seem indifferent to children being shot in schools because so "few" have been killed in 56 years, well after Dunblane and 18 dead, we've not had another school shooting since. One was enough for a civilised society, clearly America has a long way to go to achieve a similar level of civlisation, if that's what you people think.


/———/ How many other laws did the school shooters break?


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## 2aguy (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Seems I need to keep repeating myself again, because it's just not penetrating into your fantasy world. No law in existance has never been broken. The purpose is to minimise the possibility of such events, and in that respect our gun control laws have been very effective. You seem indifferent to children being shot in schools because so "few" have been killed in 56 years, well after Dunblane and 18 dead, we've not had another school shooting since. One was enough for a civilised society, clearly America has a long way to go to achieve a similar level of civlisation, if that's what you people think.




Please....enlighten us......you had two mass public shootings after the ban and confiscation....

Cumbria and Plymouth....

Which gun control laws stopped those shooters from walking into a public school and shooting children and teachers?

And the other shootings you have had......the one in Moss Side, the pub drive by shooting.....

What keeps the criminals in your country, with their illegal guns.....from walking into a school and shooting kids and teachers....?

Can you tell us which gun control law in Britain stops them from attacking schools?


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## PoliticalChic (Jul 11, 2022)

PoliticalChic said:


> And, as far at the parents.....
> 
> 
> Kimberly Klacik
> ...




"Fatherless Homes Linked to Mental Illness, Mass Shootings: Author Warren Farrell​Warren Farrell, author of the book “The Boy Crisis: Why Our Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It,” has found that being “dad deprived” is a leading factor in males’ increased mental illness, addiction, and suicide.

He links the mass shootings in 53 developed countries to boys and men who lacked a father figure, and he specifically mentioned six mass shootings that have occurred in the United States in the 21st century.

“All six of those mass school shootings that have killed more than 10 people have been done by boys, and all six of them have been done by boys who have been ‘dad deprived,’ from Sandy Hook right on through to the Texas shooting,” Farrell said during a recent interview for EpochTV’s “American Thought Leaders” program."
Warren Farrell, author of the book “The Boy Crisis: Why Our Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It,” has found that being “dad deprived” is a leading factor in males’ increased mental illness, addiction, and suicide."








						Fatherless Homes Linked to Mental Illness, Mass Shootings: Author Warren Farrell
					

He links the mass shootings in 53 developed countries to men who were dad deprived.




					www.theepochtimes.com


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## 2aguy (Jul 11, 2022)

PoliticalChic said:


> "Fatherless Homes Linked to Mental Illness, Mass Shootings: Author Warren Farrell​Warren Farrell, author of the book “The Boy Crisis: Why Our Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It,” has found that being “dad deprived” is a leading factor in males’ increased mental illness, addiction, and suicide.
> 
> He links the mass shootings in 53 developed countries to boys and men who lacked a father figure, and he specifically mentioned six mass shootings that have occurred in the United States in the 21st century.
> 
> ...




Yep....the real cause of crime in this country....


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## PoliticalChic (Jul 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep....the real cause of crime in this country....





That's what the Democrats told them: 'A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.'

And we are reaping the result.


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## Open Bolt (Jul 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So you are really trying to equate World War 2 in Europe and one of the most evil Right wing regimes that ever existed with "peacetime" America?
> You need to take your meds.


It is a valid response when Europeans try to tell Americans that the European system will save lives compared to the American system.




Vagabond63 said:


> The purpose is to minimise the possibility of such events, and in that respect our gun control laws have been very effective.


That is incorrect.  Those laws have had no effect whatsoever, beyond the pointless loss of your freedom.




Vagabond63 said:


> You seem indifferent to children being shot in schools because so "few" have been killed in 56 years, well after Dunblane and 18 dead, we've not had another school shooting since.


You didn't prevent any school massacres.  Your rate of school massacres is the same now as it was before you abolished freedom.




Vagabond63 said:


> They only "whiny children" are the gun crazies that go into a meltdown when adults try to restrict how they can play with their "toys".


That is doubly wrong.  First, we do not whine, and we certainly don't "go into a meltdown".  We simply tell you "no" when you demand that we abolish our freedom.

And second, the actual whiners are the brats from Parkland.  You haven't heard real whining if you haven't heard a Parkland brat throw a temper tantrum.




Vagabond63 said:


> Usually when someone puts up a valid argument they are unable to refute. You just get a torrent of BS responses that try to deflect from the original argument and loose the valid point in a torrent of manure.


Fake news.

There has never been a valid argument in favor of abolishing freedom.

And all of our responses are entirely factual.


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