# Reagan Was A Shitty President



## Madeline

I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:

*  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.

*  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.

*  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.

And my personal favorite:

*  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.

Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.


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## uscitizen

Reagan ushered in the era of the Neocons.


the one thing that convinced me that Reagan was a teflon president was his wifes use of astrologers and ZERO backlash from the religious right.


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## AllieBaba

Talk about revisionist.


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## Madeline

So talk already, Allie.  If you disagree, let's hear why.


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## eots

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmZ6IDfH55w]YouTube - 10 Ronald McRaygun by Dayglo Abortions[/ame]


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## Luissa

He ruined manufacturing jobs. He sided with big corporations, while hurting the middle class.


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## uscitizen

The only trickle down under the Reagan rule was from increased government spending.
the same way Bush2 kept the economy artificially pumped up.


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## manu1959

not sure we have had a decent president that hasn't fucked something up or done something stupid in 100 years.....


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## Truthmatters

every president makes some mistakes.

Reagan didnt make many mistakes he did his shit on purpose.

They want this economy we have right now and worked hard to get us here.


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## Missourian

LOL...Revisionist history???

1984 Presidential Election Results:Reagan/Bush *525   *Mondale/Ferraro *13* ​RealClearPolitics - Electoral Map


Everyone knows all the sh***y presidents win re-election with an unprecedented landslide victory...


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## Cecilie1200

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.



Well, that's all certainly your opinion, and as such, means and proves fuck-all.  But thank you for sharing it with us totally unsolicited and unwanted.  Believe it or not, your opinion does not equal objective reality.


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## Truthmatters

Which of these U.S. Presidents had the lowest approval rating when LEAVING office? - Yahoo! Answers


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## Madeline

My opinion is, Reagan was a shitty president.  But the facts I gave to back up my opinion are not "made up".  If you are a Reaganophile, let's hear why you worship this man.

In my view, he failed America and we have been paying for it for over thirty years.


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## manu1959

lets see...reagan normalized relations with the big bad soviet union ....set the economic engine in motion which payed off in the dot com era.....and created the political environment for germany to be unified....

does make one wonder why obama admires the man though doesn't it....


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## AllieBaba

1. President Reagan&#8217;s economic policies stimulated the economy, creating 17 million new jobs. One-fourth of the new jobs were created in 68 consecutive months. Black unemployment was cut in half.

2. We were given incentives to save our money, to work, and to invest because of Reagan&#8217;s tax reforms.

3. The inflation rate decreased to less than 4.4%. Family income rose 12%.

4. We are now experiencing the longest and strongest peacetime prosperity in the history of the nation.
*Please refrain from posting an entire article, post just a tidbit of the article then link up, for the rest....refresh yourself with the copyright policy of this board....Care*

Reagan Administration Accomplishments 1981-1989 &#8212; The Forerunner


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## AllieBaba

Ronald Reagan's economic achievements were among the most important of his presidency. When he took office in January 1981, the U.S. economy was suffering from many ills, including slow growth, high inflation, rising unemployment and unprecedented interest rates. Economists commonly believed that it would take decades to fix all these problems, if they could be fixed at all, and that the political cost of doing so was impossibly large for a democracy. Yet, well before the end of Reagan's presidency in 1988, he had succeeded in reversing all of the problems he inherited, putting the U.S. economy on the path of sound, noninflationary growth that continues to this day. 

To appreciate the magnitude of Reagan's achievement, it is important to recall just how bad the economic situation was in 1980..... 


http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2004/06/14/editorial3.html

Allie .. please review the copyright policy of this board.  Thank You.  Gunny


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## theHawk

Reagan is considered great for the real CHANGES that were made as a result of his policies, namely the downfall of the USSR.  Yes, that came at a big cost (the deficits created), but at least we got a real-world result that the entire world benefited from.  He also had to work with a bi-partisan Congress, a Dem controlled House especially.   And YES dems back then had half a brain and supported most of his policies.


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## Dr.Traveler

Reagan's greatest quality is that he was able to surround himself with smart guys.  George H.W. Bush is probably the smartest man to hold the VP or Presidential spot in the last few generations.  Reagan's State and Defense guys were top notch folks.

The problem with Reagan is that his actions to win the Cold War pretty much laid the seeds for the problems we face now.  You can trace a lot of the roots of Islamic terrorism back to his time, along with the roots for the current deficit, massive spending, etc.  His actions won the War, but may have lost the battle in the long run.

I have a feeling history isn't going to be very kind to Reagan.

What I don't understand is the deification of Reagan by Cons.  Reagan literally couldn't get elected today in the GOP.  His willingness to work with Democrats in the Congress, his massive spending, some of his more liberal stances... just strange.


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## boedicca

Reagan was a far better president than most in what matters for the vast majority of Americans:  jobs and inflation.

Posted in another thread, but relevant here.

What Ronnie left us:

A 9.6 point DECREASE in the Misery Index (inflation plus unemployment).  Contrast that with Carter's 7 point and Obama's (in 17 months) 2.8 point INCREASE in the Misery Index.

Carter and Obama = More Misery

Reagan = Much Less Misery

And the only reason Obama's isn't much worse is because of the near free money policy being enforced by the Feds with their zero interest rate lending.  The 1982 recession was necessary to bring down inflation (which was 13.6% when Reagan entered office), and was done via tight money.   The current recession is flush with a big money supply - once the Feds are forced to tighten in order to roll over all of the foreign borrowing, we'll see inflationary pressure and high unemployment.  Obamanomics = Epic Fail.

The United States Misery Index By President


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## Modbert

As all the revisionists rush to defend their messiah.


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## boedicca

It's not revisionist.  It's fact.   You can verify the unemployment and inflation statistics for yourself.

And as Doggie The Bubble Mod still lives in his parents' basement, it's clear he doesn't grok the importance to grown-ups of JOBS and avoiding hyper inflation.


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## Modbert

boedicca said:


> It's not revisionist.  It's fact.   You can verify the unemployment and inflation statistics for yourself.
> 
> And as Doggie The Bubble Mod still lives in his parents' basement, it's clear he doesn't grok the importance to grown-ups of JOBS and avoiding hyper inflation.





Do tell how Reagan ended that recession in 1982. I'll give you a hint, it was impossible this time around.


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## boedicca

Reagan cut taxes effective Jan 1, 1983 and dramatically decreased inflation via the Volcker Fed tightening.

Any theory that you have that doesn't involve these facts is just leftwing hyperbole.


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## uscitizen

manu1959 said:


> lets see...reagan normalized relations with the big bad soviet union ....set the economic engine in motion which payed off in the dot com era.....and created the political environment for germany to be unified....
> 
> does make one wonder why obama admires the man though doesn't it....


'

The Y2K fixes was most of the dot com bubble.
that and investors gambling wildly on dotcom stuff.


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## Jeremy

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8_G-mlKxTY]YouTube - Tribute to Ronald Reagan[/ame]


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## Modbert

boedicca said:


> Reagan cut taxes effective Jan 1, 1983 and dramatically decreased inflation via the Volcker Fed tightening.
> 
> Any theory that you have that doesn't involve these facts is just leftwing hyperbole.



Actually, even the CBO at the time attributed the recovery to cutting those interest rates. Couldn't do that this time around, they were already at zero. Reagan's solution was a bandage on a gaping wound.

If tax cuts spurred the economy, then goodness knows we shouldn't of lost all those jobs under Bush. 

Though that didn't stop Saint Ronnie from taking spending to new levels.


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## FireFly

Luissa said:


> He ruined manufacturing jobs. He sided with big corporations, while hurting the middle class.



Unions Kill Jobs.

Democrats shipped your jobs out of country to spread the wealth around the planet for social justice.

Obama thinks paying people not to work, giving them free food, healthcare & letting them stay in their foreclosed homes is stimulus. He is the handout president who punishes workers & rewards slackers. What a fucking idiot!


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## boedicca

uscitizen said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> lets see...reagan normalized relations with the big bad soviet union ....set the economic engine in motion which payed off in the dot com era.....and created the political environment for germany to be unified....
> 
> does make one wonder why obama admires the man though doesn't it....
> 
> 
> 
> '
> 
> The Y2K fixes was most of the dot com bubble.
> that and investors gambling wildly on dotcom stuff.
Click to expand...



That is incorrect.  Y2K most certainly fueled a lot of infrastructure spending, but the impact of the dotcom bubble spread into other sectors as well (everyone wanted a dotcom story for their business) particularly telecom with tons of fiber wrapping around the planet.


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## AllieBaba

"Critics of Reagan's policies continue to point to large budget deficits in the 1980s as the price of his success. These troubled him as well. But given the magnitude of Reagan's accomplishments in stopping inflation and bringing about the collapse of the Soviet Union, I don't think his failure in this area should be held against him. 

As impressive as Reagan's tangible accomplishments in office were, his less tangible accomplishments were also significant. Together with Margaret Thatcher, he restored the idea that private individuals and businesses were the true sources of prosperity, not government. They gave legitimacy to free markets, open trade and sound money, in contrast to socialism, planning and price controls, which had dominated economic policy throughout the world for more than half a century. The renaissance of growth and freedom in Eastern Europe and the Third World owes much to Reagan's and Thatcher's discrediting of the socialist idea and their tireless defense of economic freedom. "

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2004/06/14/editorial3.html


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## Modbert

AllieBaba said:


> "Critics of Reagan's policies continue to point to large budget deficits in the 1980s as the price of his success. These troubled him as well. But given the magnitude of Reagan's accomplishments in stopping inflation and bringing about the collapse of the Soviet Union, I don't think his failure in this area should be held against him.
> 
> As impressive as Reagan's tangible accomplishments in office were, his less tangible accomplishments were also significant. Together with Margaret Thatcher, he restored the idea that private individuals and businesses were the true sources of prosperity, not government. They gave legitimacy to free markets, open trade and sound money, in contrast to socialism, planning and price controls, which had dominated economic policy throughout the world for more than half a century. The renaissance of growth and freedom in Eastern Europe and the Third World owes much to Reagan's and Thatcher's discrediting of the socialist idea and their tireless defense of economic freedom. "
> 
> Reagan's economic accomplishments were invaluable - Jacksonville Business Journal



Are you just going to keep spamming the thread with this? 

Yawn.


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## AllieBaba

I know. Facts suck!


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## Modbert

AllieBaba said:


> Facts suck!



Well that explains why you're avoiding any of them in this thread.


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## Jeremy




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## manu1959

uscitizen said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> lets see...reagan normalized relations with the big bad soviet union ....set the economic engine in motion which payed off in the dot com era.....and created the political environment for germany to be unified....
> 
> does make one wonder why obama admires the man though doesn't it....
> 
> 
> 
> '
> 
> The Y2K fixes was most of the dot com bubble.
> that and investors gambling wildly on dotcom stuff.
Click to expand...


didn't clinton and al take credit for all that...and blame the crash on someone else....


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## Middleman

I didn't care for Reagan. Good points there. He seemed to appeal to Americans' greed and consumerist tendencies , for one thing. He capitalized on the religious sentiments of people to really recklessly further the greedy industrialists desires. And he said he was Christian but he and his wife were also into the occult actually

He made some off the wall comments about the environment that I disagreed with, such as "You've seen one tree, you've seen them all". He was no environmentalist. 

I also disliked his whole movie star persona. It seemed shallow to me. I didn't like his silky, smooth manner.


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## uscitizen

boedicca said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> lets see...reagan normalized relations with the big bad soviet union ....set the economic engine in motion which payed off in the dot com era.....and created the political environment for germany to be unified....
> 
> does make one wonder why obama admires the man though doesn't it....
> 
> 
> 
> '
> 
> The Y2K fixes was most of the dot com bubble.
> that and investors gambling wildly on dotcom stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is incorrect.  Y2K most certainly fueled a lot of infrastructure spending, but the impact of the dotcom bubble spread into other sectors as well (everyone wanted a dotcom story for their business) particularly telecom with tons of fiber wrapping around the planet.
Click to expand...


Actually the fiber was not part of it.  That mostly came later.
I know I used to work for a fiber company and worked most of my career in Telecom.
I was in the IT side of telecom during the dot com boom.


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## uscitizen

manu1959 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> lets see...reagan normalized relations with the big bad soviet union ....set the economic engine in motion which payed off in the dot com era.....and created the political environment for germany to be unified....
> 
> does make one wonder why obama admires the man though doesn't it....
> 
> 
> 
> '
> 
> The Y2K fixes was most of the dot com bubble.
> that and investors gambling wildly on dotcom stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> didn't clinton and al take credit for all that...and blame the crash on someone else....
Click to expand...


Of course he did, he is a politician isn't he?


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## manu1959

Middleman said:


> I didn't care for Reagan. Good points there. He seemed to appeal to Americans' greed and consumerist tendencies , for one thing. He capitalized on the religious sentiments of people to really recklessly further the greedy industrialists desires. And he said he was Christian but he and his wife were also into the occult actually
> 
> He made some off the wall comments about the environment that I disagreed with, such as "You've seen one tree, you've seen them all". He was no environmentalist.
> 
> I also disliked his whole movie star persona. It seemed shallow to me. I didn't like his silky, smooth manner.



that sounds a lot like someone else...........


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## Middleman

manu1959 said:


> Middleman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't care for Reagan. Good points there. He seemed to appeal to Americans' greed and consumerist tendencies , for one thing. He capitalized on the religious sentiments of people to really recklessly further the greedy industrialists desires. And he said he was Christian but he and his wife were also into the occult actually
> 
> He made some off the wall comments about the environment that I disagreed with, such as "You've seen one tree, you've seen them all". He was no environmentalist.
> 
> I also disliked his whole movie star persona. It seemed shallow to me. I didn't like his silky, smooth manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that sounds a lot like someone else...........
Click to expand...


I probably don't care for that person either.


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## Madeline

Allie, be nice to hear what _you_  think rather than right wingnut blogosphere copypasta.


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## Toro

I think all and all, he was a pretty good President.

Reagan's biggest attribute was that he made Americans feel good about themselves again.  That is often overlooked but the trait of a good leader is one who inspires people in some way.  After the 1970s of Vietnam, inflation, Iran hostages, pictures of burning flags, continued Soviet encroachment, Reagan made Americans feel proud to be Americans again.

He did some good things economically, particularly deregulation and flattening and reforming the tax code.  His contribution to economic growth is often over-stated by conservatives - Carter would have presided over a booming economy in 1983 and 1984 given that interest rates collapsed after Volcker broke the back of inflation - but he reversed some damaging policies.

He, along with Margaret Thatcher, was representative of the new conservatism sweeping the world to halt the continued encroachment of government intervention into peoples' lives.

Conservatives also overblow his contribution to the collapse of the USSR, but liberals underestimate it.  He provided the moral backbone to opposition to communism.

He made many mistakes as well but his good outweighed the bad.


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## Toro

boedicca said:


> Reagan was a far better president than most in what matters for the vast majority of Americans:  jobs and inflation.
> 
> Posted in another thread, but relevant here.
> 
> What Ronnie left us:
> 
> A 9.6 point DECREASE in the Misery Index (inflation plus unemployment).  Contrast that with Carter's 7 point and Obama's (in 17 months) 2.8 point INCREASE in the Misery Index.
> 
> Carter and Obama = More Misery
> 
> Reagan = Much Less Misery
> 
> And the only reason Obama's isn't much worse is because of the near free money policy being enforced by the Feds with their zero interest rate lending.  The 1982 recession was necessary to bring down inflation (which was 13.6% when Reagan entered office), and was done via tight money.   The current recession is flush with a big money supply - once the Feds are forced to tighten in order to roll over all of the foreign borrowing, we'll see inflationary pressure and high unemployment.  Obamanomics = Epic Fail.
> 
> The United States Misery Index By President



The credit for breaking inflation goes to the Fed Chairman at the time, Paul Volcker.  Volcker is widely considered to be the greatest Fed Chairman in history.


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## MikeK

AllieBaba said:


> 1. President Reagans economic policies stimulated the economy, creating 17 million new jobs. One-fourth of the new jobs were created in 68 consecutive months. Black unemployment was cut in half.


Virtually all the new jobs created during the Reagan Administration were in the burgeoning military and law enforcement complexes.  



> 2. We were given incentives to save our money, to work, and to invest because of Reagans tax reforms.


Reagan's tax reforms have destroyed the middle class and have given rise to a second Gilded Age.



> 3. The inflation rate decreased to less than 4.4%. Family income rose 12%.


Because our economy was given a great big credit card with which to synthesize those deceptively impressive numbers.



> 4. We are now experiencing the longest and strongest peacetime prosperity in the history of the nation.


This neo-con propaganda piece was clearly created when the Republican bullshit machine was still working.



> 5. We are experiencing the best peacetime relationship with the Soviet Union in our history.


Thanks to Mikhael Gorbachev and his Glasnost policies.



> We have also seen the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan.


Indeed we have.



> 6. We are now keeping the peace. We drew the line in Grenada, Libya, Afghanistan, and the Persian Gulf, and no countries have fallen to communism during the Reagan era.


Yeah.  We're keeping the peace, alright.  And while no countries have fallen to communism our economy is being slowly absorbed by the most aggressively successful communist entity in the world.  



> 7. The U.S. military was refurbished and strengthened.


And transformed into an unnecessarily well-armed monster which is draining a major segment of our national budget.



> 8. There is now a call for prayer in schools. The Republican adminstration has been lobbying to give this deserved religious freedom.


And it flies in the face of a successful democracy's need to maintain separation of church and state.  Anyone who wants their children to have a religiously influenced education can send them to a parochial school.  But religion does not belong in any taxpayer financed public school.



> 9. We have seen a return to traditional values. Under Reagan, we have seen a cut in federal funding of abortions; emphasis on a strong family unit; and the development of family-oriented public policy.


The cut in federal funding of abortions produces a rise in unwanted pregnancies, most of which will impose a burden on local and state economies. 



> 10. Educational leaders are now working to sustain moral values and reestablish a clear understanding of right and wrong. The need for values in the curriculum has been trumpeted by the Reagan administration.


What is needed in our school curriculums is a strong emphasis on what once was called _civics_ but is education in the political structure and mechanisms of our local, state and federal governments.  Leave it to parents to impart values to their children.  



> 11. People from other nations are flocking to America to follow our example. Our principles of civil and economic freedom are now being copied all over the world.


They sure are.  Especially from Mexico and China -- and some from the Middle East who want to take flying lessons.  

America Just Prior to the Reagan Administration



> 1. Seven million Americans were unemployed.


The unemployment rate at that time was the natural consequence of an economic cycle, not not the fringe effect of an incipient recession such as we're experiencing now.



> 2. We were told to live on less, to buckle our belts and to prepare for scarcity.


Which is preferable to the insoluble debt initiated by Reaganomics.



> 3. Americans went through two of the worst years of inflation in 60 years. There was a 13% inflation rate. Family income dropped and we had the highest tax bill in our history.


There were reasons for that and putting the Nation in debt was not the way to solve the problem.



> 4. We were on the verge of a major recession.


Not true.  We were on the way to a slow but prudent recovery.



> 5. With our cold wars during the 70s, we inspired our enemies not to be afraid of us. The Soviets refused to come to the bargaining table. Cultural exchanges between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. came to a halt.


Right.  And on 9/11/01 the U.S. homeland was attacked in a way the Germans and Japanese weren't capable of during WW-II.  



> 6. Disarmament was considered a noble goal. We did not know where to draw the line in our negotiations with the Soviets. Three countries fell to communism under the Carter administration: Benin (1977), Nicaragua (1979), and Zimbabwe (1980).


So what?  Some nations are receptive to a communist system of government and some aren't.  Ours was not because of our economic strength.  But the ultimate effect of policies put in place by Reagan's puppet-masters have created a situation which could weaken the U.S. economy sufficiently as to make us receptive to a collectivist form of government.  



> 7. Guns and tanks that did not even work were being sent to battle.


In "wars" which were not wars but military adventures we should not have been involved in to begin with.



> 8. Young Americans were not allowed to pray in school  even though Congress, every state house, and the Supreme Court begins business with prayer.


This is because we are a nation of hypocrites.  None of these places, especially the schools, are appropriate environments for prayer.  Churches are.  



> 9. Progressive values became fashionable. Social policies emulated the values of a small, vocal minority.


Progressive values are all that will prevent the U.S. from becoming a the fascist corporatocracy which Reagan's policies have set the stage for.



> 10. Education did not sustain moral values. Educational curricula began to promote alternative lifesyles, such as homosexuality.


Homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle, which implies choice.  Homosexuality is a natural condition common to all mammalian species.  Inability to understand this and/or failure to accept it is typical of the often impenetrably dense right wing political orientation.



> 11. America wore a kick me sign on its back. We lost our edge in technology and in global markets due to excessive government regulation, and high taxes which devoured capital.


And Ronald Reagan's removal of the solar panels placed on the White House roof by the Carter Administration is evidence of the Republicans' superior vision in the area of technological development.  Right?


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## Madeline

Toro said:


> I think all and all, he was a pretty good President.
> 
> Reagan's biggest attribute was that he made Americans feel good about themselves again.  That is often overlooked but the trait of a good leader is one who inspires people in some way.  After the 1970s of Vietnam, inflation, Iran hostages, pictures of burning flags, continued Soviet encroachment, Reagan made Americans feel proud to be Americans again.
> 
> He did some good things economically, particularly deregulation and flattening and reforming the tax code.  His contribution to economic growth is often over-stated by conservatives - Carter would have presided over a booming economy in 1983 and 1984 given that interest rates collapsed after Volcker broke the back of inflation - but he reversed some damaging policies.
> 
> He, along with Margaret Thatcher, was representative of the new conservatism sweeping the world to halt the continued encroachment of government intervention into peoples' lives.
> 
> Conservatives also overblow his contribution to the collapse of the USSR, but liberals underestimate it.  He provided the moral backbone to opposition to communism.
> 
> He made many mistakes as well but his good outweighed the bad.



Deregulation was not an accomplishment, Toro.  Look at the Savings and Loan debacle, the airlines mess, the phone company mess...etc.

I agree that simplification of the tax code was a positive, but shifting the tax burden down onto the poor and middle class was bad.

I dunno how to measure the "touchy feely" thing.  Reagan was a slick bastard, I'll agree.


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## fyrenza

Modbert said:


> As all the revisionists rush to defend their messiah.



It isn't that I think he was a messiah ~

it's FACTS.

You can't look at FACTS and devise an informed opinion?

I don't get that.


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## fyrenza

WTF is this?

NOW,

y'all are going to blame Reagan?!?

Cripes.


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## Truthmatters

Toro said:


> I think all and all, he was a pretty good President.
> 
> Reagan's biggest attribute was that he made Americans feel good about themselves again.  That is often overlooked but the trait of a good leader is one who inspires people in some way.  After the 1970s of Vietnam, inflation, Iran hostages, pictures of burning flags, continued Soviet encroachment, Reagan made Americans feel proud to be Americans again.
> 
> He did some good things economically, particularly deregulation and flattening and reforming the tax code.  His contribution to economic growth is often over-stated by conservatives - Carter would have presided over a booming economy in 1983 and 1984 given that interest rates collapsed after Volcker broke the back of inflation - but he reversed some damaging policies.
> 
> He, along with Margaret Thatcher, was representative of the new conservatism sweeping the world to halt the continued encroachment of government intervention into peoples' lives.
> 
> Conservatives also overblow his contribution to the collapse of the USSR, but liberals underestimate it.  He provided the moral backbone to opposition to communism.
> 
> He made many mistakes as well but his good outweighed the bad.



He gave us massive debt, the deregulation was a complete failure because of  the fallout it created. The feel good thing was sickening because he used it to inflame racial tentions by talking the "welfare queen in the caddy" crap. He does get credit from me for recognizing that Gorbachev was the real deal and coopperating with him. He began the right wing courting of the religious right which has been a horrble influence on our policy fore decades now.

He was a bad president on the whole.


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## AllieBaba

MikeK said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. President Reagans economic policies stimulated the economy, creating 17 million new jobs. One-fourth of the new jobs were created in 68 consecutive months. Black unemployment was cut in half.
> 
> 
> 
> Virtually all the new jobs created during the Reagan Administration were in the burgeoning military and law enforcement complexes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. We were given incentives to save our money, to work, and to invest because of Reagans tax reforms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Reagan's tax reforms have destroyed the middle class and have given rise to a second Gilded Age.
> 
> 
> Because our economy was given a great big credit card with which to synthesize those deceptively impressive numbers.
> 
> 
> This neo-con propaganda piece was clearly created when the Republican bullshit machine was still working.
> 
> 
> Thanks to Mikhael Gorbachev and his Glasnost policies.
> 
> 
> Indeed we have.
> 
> 
> Yeah.  We're keeping the peace, alright.  And while no countries have fallen to communism our economy is being slowly absorbed by the most aggressively successful communist entity in the world.
> 
> 
> And transformed into an unnecessarily well-armed monster which is draining a major segment of our national budget.
> 
> 
> And it flies in the face of a successful democracy's need to maintain separation of church and state.  Anyone who wants their children to have a religiously influenced education can send them to a parochial school.  But religion does not belong in any taxpayer financed public school.
> 
> 
> The cut in federal funding of abortions produces a rise in unwanted pregnancies, most of which will impose a burden on local and state economies.
> 
> 
> What is needed in our school curriculums is a strong emphasis on what once was called _civics_ but is education in the political structure and mechanisms of our local, state and federal governments.  Leave it to parents to impart values to their children.
> 
> 
> They sure are.  Especially from Mexico and China -- and some from the Middle East who want to take flying lessons.
> 
> America Just Prior to the Reagan Administration
> 
> 
> The unemployment rate at that time was the natural consequence of an economic cycle, not not the fringe effect of an incipient recession such as we're experiencing now.
> 
> 
> Which is preferable to the insoluble debt initiated by Reaganomics.
> 
> 
> There were reasons for that and putting the Nation in debt was not the way to solve the problem.
> 
> 
> Not true.  We were on the way to a slow but prudent recovery.
> 
> 
> Right.  And on 9/11/01 the U.S. homeland was attacked in a way the Germans and Japanese weren't capable of during WW-II.
> 
> 
> So what?  Some nations are receptive to a communist system of government and some aren't.  Ours was not because of our economic strength.  But the ultimate effect of policies put in place by Reagan's puppet-masters have created a situation which could weaken the U.S. economy sufficiently as to make us receptive to a collectivist form of government.
> 
> 
> In "wars" which were not wars but military adventures we should not have been involved in to begin with.
> 
> 
> This is because we are a nation of hypocrites.  None of these places, especially the schools, are appropriate environments for prayer.  Churches are.
> 
> 
> Progressive values are all that will prevent the U.S. from becoming a the fascist corporatocracy which Reagan's policies have set the stage for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10. Education did not sustain moral values. Educational curricula began to promote alternative lifesyles, such as homosexuality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle, which implies choice.  Homosexuality is a natural condition common to all mammalian species.  Inability to understand this and/or failure to accept it is typical of the often impenetrably dense right wing political orientation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 11. America wore a kick me sign on its back. We lost our edge in technology and in global markets due to excessive government regulation, and high taxes which devoured capital.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And Ronald Reagan's removal of the solar panels placed on the White House roof by the Carter Administration is evidence of the Republicans' superior vision in the area of technological development.  Right?
Click to expand...


What complete and total garbage. Post some facts and we'll talk.


----------



## Truthmatters

Awww how cute allin babble is trying to talk history


----------



## MikeK

President Ronald Reagan was the product of the hypnosis of middle America by Hollywood image-makers.  His only relevant ability was that of effecting a convincing grade-B performance of a U.S. President, which he managed to pull off surprisingly well.  In reality, the man was nothing but a self-serving, union-busting, corporate puppet who would have poisoned his mother if General Electric told him to.  

The best thing the sonofabitch ever did was die.


----------



## AllieBaba

Coming from splatter, that really means something.


----------



## fyrenza

Truthmatters said:


> Awww how cute allin babble is trying to talk history



Awwwww

How cute!

YOU'RE trying to talk about ANYTHING!

Yeah.

It's like THAT.


----------



## fyrenza

MikeK said:


> President Ronald Reagan was the product of the hypnosis of middle America by Hollywood image-makers.  His only relevant ability was that of effecting a convincing grade-B performance of a U.S. President, which he managed to pull off surprisingly well.  In reality, the man was nothing but a self-serving, union-busting, corporate puppet who would have poisoned his mother if General Electric told him to.
> 
> The best thing the sonofabitch ever did was die.



Would that be the same GE that supports Obozo and the dumborats?


----------



## Madeline

AllieBaba said:


> Coming from splatter, that really means something.



Mebbe so Allie, but you have yet to put your own thoughts on this thread.  Anyone can regurgitate rightwing blogs.


----------



## Jeremy

Truthmatters said:


> Awww how cute allin babble is trying to talk history





			
				President Reagan said:
			
		

> "Nice rebuttal dipshit."


----------



## Jeremy

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NowLZlfx5qw]YouTube - President Reagan tells a heckler to shutup[/ame]


----------



## Truthmatters

How many years in the office was he suffering from alzhimers?

He allowed arms to be traded for hostages.


----------



## uscitizen

Reagan was not a great president.
However many people think he was.
It is all about perception not facts.


----------



## Big Fitz

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.


You keep trying to sell that one but no one's buying it except Carter and Mondale voters.  Even with tax credits and discounts, nobody's buying it.


----------



## uscitizen

Iran contra...

Bush I had to pardon all involved including himself.
A massive blanket pardon.


----------



## AllieBaba

Madeline said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coming from splatter, that really means something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mebbe so Allie, but you have yet to put your own thoughts on this thread.  Anyone can regurgitate rightwing blogs.
Click to expand...


Anyone can, sure.

I don't, however.

I back up what I say with facts and links. You might try it some day, ignoramus.


----------



## johnrocks

I think he's been the "least shitty" of those that have been President in my 49 years but the Reagan worshipers have elevated him to "Elvis" status which does those who advocate less government no good at all.  To be called a "Reagan conservative" is setting the bar pretty low.


----------



## Truthmatters

The Enduring Lies of Ronald Reagan -- In These Times


During a 1983 Congressional Medal of Honor ceremony Reagan told a story about military heroism that New York Daily News columnist Lars-Erik Nelson wrote never happened. Nelson had checked the citations on all 434 Congressional Medals of Honor awarded during WWII. The scene Reagan described did appear, however, in the 1944 film A Wing and a Prayer. Larry Speakes&#8217; response? &#8220;If you tell the same story five times, it&#8217;s true.&#8221;


----------



## Truthmatters

In 1982, the Congressional Budget Office found that taxpayers earning under $10,000 lost an average of $240 from Reagan&#8217;s 1981 tax cuts, while those earning more than $80,000 gained an average of $15,130. By that fall, the jobless rate hit 10.1 percent&#8212;the worst in 42 years, and a year later 11.9 million were out of work. In 1983, the country&#8217;s poverty rate rose to 15 percent, the highest level since the mid-&#8217;60s. In 1984, a congressional study reported that cuts in welfare had pushed more than 500,000 people&#8212;the majority of them children&#8212;into poverty. Then-Attorney General Ed Meese&#8217;s response? &#8220;I don&#8217;t know of any authoritative figures that there are hungry children &#8230; people go to soup kitchens because the food is free and that&#8217;s easier than paying for it.&#8221;


----------



## AllieBaba

Truthmatters said:


> The Enduring Lies of Ronald Reagan -- In These Times
> 
> 
> During a 1983 Congressional Medal of Honor ceremony Reagan told a story about military heroism that New York Daily News columnist Lars-Erik Nelson wrote never happened. Nelson had checked the citations on all 434 Congressional Medals of Honor awarded during WWII. The scene Reagan described did appear, however, in the 1944 film A Wing and a Prayer. Larry Speakes response? If you tell the same story five times, its true.



I always know when somebody reads only partisan rags when they lie about ME using "blogs" to source stuff.

"In These Times is a nonprofit and independent newsmagazine committed to political and economic democracy and opposed to the dominance of transnational corporations and the tyranny of marketplace values over human values. In These Times is dedicated to reporting the news with the highest journalistic standards; to informing and analyzing movements for social, environmental and economic justice; and to providing an accessible forum for debate about the policies that shape our future."

social justice, lol.

"In 1976, author and historian James Weinstein founded In These Times with the mission to identify and clarify the struggles against corporate power now multiplying in American society.

Weinstein was joined in establishing this independent magazine of news, culture and opinion by noted intellectuals Daniel Ellsberg, E.P. Thompson, Noam Chomsky, Barbara Ehrenreich, Julian Bond and Herbert Marcuse, all of whom were among the original sponsors of the magazine (see full list of founding sponsors below)."

That was from your website.

"The Wit and Wisdom of Noam Chomsky 

Compiled by Paul Bogdanor 

ON COMMUNISM... 

One might argue, at least I would argue, that council communism... is the natural form of revolutionary socialism in an industrial society. 
(Government in the Future [Seven Stories Press, 2005], p. 27) 

ON POVERTY... 

if we ever get anything like a kind of just society, things like my standard of living may very well not exist. In that sense, there will be, I think, material deprivation in some manner for a large part of the population. And I think there ought to be. 
(Interview, Black Rose, No. 1, 1974) 

ON REVOLUTION... 

I suppose that, at some point, the ruling class will simply strike back by force, and there has to be defense against that force, and that probably means violent revolution. 
(Interview, Black Rose, No. 1, 1974) 

ON TERROR... 

If it were true that the consequences of not using terror would be that the peasantry in Vietnam would continue to live in the state of the peasantry of the Philippines, then I think the use of terror would be justified. 
(Alexander Klein, ed., Dissent, Power and Confrontation [McGraw-Hill, 1971], p. 119) 

ON DICTATORSHIPS... 

 Maoist China 

But take China, modern China; one also finds many things that are really quite admirable... a good deal of the collectivization and communization was really based on mass participation and took place after a level of understanding had been reached in the peasantry... 
(Alexander Klein, ed., Dissent, Power and Confrontation [McGraw-Hill, 1971], pp. 117-8) 

 Stalinist North Vietnam 

I would like to express the great joy that we feel in your accomplishments... Your heroism reveals the capabilities of the human spirit and human will. 
(Radio Hanoi, April 14, 1970) 

 Pol Pots Cambodia 

the evacuation of Phnom Penh, widely denounced at the time and since for its undoubted brutality, may actually have saved many lives. It is striking that the crucial facts rarely appear in the chorus of condemnations. 
(After the Cataclysm [South End Press, 1979], p. 160) 

ON AMERICA... 

Such facts as these... raise the question whether what is needed in the United States today is dissent or denazification... I myself believe that what is needed is a kind of denazification. 
(Ethics, October 1968) 

ON REPUBLICANS... 

The new Republicans represent a kind of proto-fascism. Theres a real sadism. They want to go for the jugular. Anybody who doesnt meet their standards, they want to kill, not just oppose, but destroy. 
(The Progressive, March 1996) 

ON ZIONISM... 

Hitlers conceptions have struck a responsive chord in current Zionist commentary. 
(Fateful Triangle [rev. ed., Pluto Press, 1999], p. 208) 

ON JUDAISM... 

In the Jewish community, the Orthodox rabbinate imposes its interpretation of religious law... Were similar principles to apply to Jews elsewhere, we would not hesitate to condemn this revival of the Nuremberg laws. 
(Foreword, Sabri Jiryis, The Arabs in Israel [Monthly Review Press, 1976], p. viii) 

ON ISRAEL... 

Israels secret weapon ... is that it may behave in the manner of what have sometimes been called crazy states in the international affairs literature... eventuating in a final solution from which few will escape. 
(Fateful Triangle [rev. ed., Pluto Press, 1999], pp. 468-9) 

ON JEWS... 

The Jewish community here is deeply totalitarian. They do not want democracy, they do not want freedom. 
(Interview, Shmate: A Journal of Progressive Jewish Thought, Summer 1988)"

The Wit and Wisdom of Noam Chomsky

Your source is a commie rag, you nitwit.


----------



## Madeline

Reagan began the most recent wave of demonizing the poor.  Clinton, that raggedy asswipe, pandered to it as well.


----------



## AllieBaba

Yeah, whatever, ding dong.


----------



## fyrenza

Just STFU, eh?

Made-A-Line, I don't even read your posts, and UNLESS someone quotes you,

you just basically Do Not Exist.

You've proven yourself to be a REPEATER ~ you haven't even come CLOSE to being an Amplifier.

If anything?  You DENIGRATE the postings of the folks you repeat.

Time for a little screen name change-up, imho.


----------



## Truthmatters

The facts in the story are correct allin babble


----------



## AllieBaba

No, no they aren't.


----------



## AllieBaba

Besides, they aren't facts at all. They're opinion.

And wrong.


----------



## uscitizen

What really amazes me is how those who worship Reagan zing Obama for using teleprompters.

Liberals are not allowed to use teleprompters I suppose.


----------



## Truthmatters

AllieBaba said:


> No, no they aren't.



If you tell the same story five times, its true. was never said and reagan never gave that speach?

The CBO never scored the reagan tax cuts?


----------



## Big Fitz

fyrenza said:


> WTF is this?
> 
> NOW,
> 
> y'all are going to blame Reagan?!?
> 
> Cripes.


This is reality as they wish it.  Not as it is.  The big lie is a tool for them to handle the fact that reality and their desires will never meet.  The problem is, the rest of us pay for their mental illness more than they do.


----------



## uscitizen

Reagan deserves his share of the blame, along witrh several other presidents and the majority of congress.
Lets not forget the private sector and their well deserved blame either.


----------



## Big Fitz

Truthmatters said:


> The facts in the story are correct allin babble


"Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, everyone's not entitled to their own facts."
Joe Biden


----------



## Truthmatters

Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.

He sold arms for hostages.

He increased racial tention.

He made children go hungry.

He decreased the ranks of the middle class.


----------



## Jeremy

Truthmatters said:


> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.
> 
> He sold arms for hostages.
> 
> He increased racial tention.
> 
> He made children go hungry.
> 
> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.



That asshole ate kittens for breakfast and raped grandmothers too!!


----------



## Big Fitz

> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.



Who writes the laws again?  Usually before they vote on them?



> He sold arms for hostages.



There were no convictions only allegations.




> He increased racial tention.



Prove it.  Credible news sources only, not moonbat conspiracy blogs please.



> He made children go hungry.



1. Cite one proven case that links the president to child starvation.  2. Where were the children's parents?  3. Its the government's job to feed children?  When'd that become a constitutional power?



> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.



He increased the size of the upper class as well.  I guess helping people get rich is a bad thing.


----------



## Big Fitz

Jeremy said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.
> 
> He sold arms for hostages.
> 
> He increased racial tention.
> 
> He made children go hungry.
> 
> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That asshole ate kittens for breakfast and raped grandmothers too!!
Click to expand...

went down to the hobo jungle, stole cans of beans from the bums there and ate them in the white house kitchen too.

Jeez!  Let's try and make a boogyman while we're at it!  I hear if you say his name 5 times fast he'll come back and kill you with the iron hook he has for his hand!

Wet the bed much, TroofMutters?


----------



## AllieBaba

Truthmatters said:


> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.
> 
> He sold arms for hostages.
> 
> He increased racial tention.
> 
> He made children go hungry.
> 
> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.


----------



## boedicca

Truthmatters said:


> He made children go hungry.





Oh NOESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reagan stole food from the mouths of STARVING BABIES.

TM has got to be the stupidest person in the history of humanity, if we are even able to include her as fully human.


----------



## AllieBaba

I'm cracking up because she and blu have been reduced to criticizing me for providing too much source material.


----------



## Toro

Truthmatters said:


> He gave us massive debt, the deregulation was a complete failure because of  the fallout it created.



Deregulation was on the whole a good thing. Deregulation of the S&Ls cost the Treasury a couple hundred billions of dollars, but his deregulation also increased the flow of credit to poorer people and deregulation of other areas of finance increased competition for interest rates, lowering the cost of capital for most people.  He also deregulated trucking and transportation as well as energy production and transportation, which increased the market for natural gas.


----------



## boedicca

AllieBaba said:


> I'm cracking up because she and blu have been reduced to criticizing me for providing too much source material.




Well, you have to admit, their cognitive abilities are sorely challenged when presented with facts.


----------



## Truthmatters

Toro I respect your opinion and yeild to your superior knowledge on these matters but I would love some reading from you to proove to me the facts behind this matter.

I am unaware of any benifits to anything other than corporations  in his deregulation march.

If anyone can convince me here it would be you and I am willing to read what ever you present.


----------



## uscitizen

Jeremy said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.
> 
> He sold arms for hostages.
> 
> He increased racial tention.
> 
> He made children go hungry.
> 
> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That asshole ate kittens for breakfast and raped grandmothers too!!
Click to expand...


Link?


----------



## uscitizen

Toro said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> He gave us massive debt, the deregulation was a complete failure because of  the fallout it created.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deregulation was on the whole a good thing. Deregulation of the S&Ls cost the Treasury a couple hundred billions of dollars, but his deregulation also increased the flow of credit to poorer people and deregulation of other areas of finance increased competition for interest rates, lowering the cost of capital for most people.  He also deregulated trucking and transportation as well as energy production and transportation, which increased the market for natural gas.
Click to expand...


The treasury bonds used to pay off the S&L failues are just now coming due to be paid.


----------



## Truthmatters

I think he was talking about himself , sometimes he has delousions hes reagan


----------



## Samson

Truthmatters said:


> I would love some reading from you to proove to me the facts behind this matter.


----------



## Jeremy

uscitizen said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.
> 
> He sold arms for hostages.
> 
> He increased racial tention.
> 
> He made children go hungry.
> 
> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That asshole ate kittens for breakfast and raped grandmothers too!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...


http://www.usmessageboard.com/members/truthmatters.html


----------



## Toro

Truthmatters said:


> Toro I respect your opinion and yeild to your superior knowledge on these matters but I would love some reading from you to proove to me the facts behind this matter.
> 
> I am unaware of any benifits to anything other than corporations  in his deregulation march.
> 
> If anyone can convince me here it would be you and I am willing to read what ever you present.



The stuff that I have read I read a long time ago and is industry research.  I don't know where it is on the Internet.

For example, the deregulation of the natural gas industry lead to a boom in natural gas drilling.  Prior, gas was often just burned off at the tip because it was uneconomical to transport.


----------



## Middleman

uscitizen said:


> What really amazes me is how those who worship Reagan zing Obama for using teleprompters.
> 
> Liberals are not allowed to use teleprompters I suppose.



Ha ha, typical human hypocrisy!


----------



## Truthmatters

Toro said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Toro I respect your opinion and yeild to your superior knowledge on these matters but I would love some reading from you to proove to me the facts behind this matter.
> 
> I am unaware of any benifits to anything other than corporations  in his deregulation march.
> 
> If anyone can convince me here it would be you and I am willing to read what ever you present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stuff that I have read I read a long time ago and is industry research.  I don't know where it is on the Internet.
> 
> For example, the deregulation of the natural gas industry lead to a boom in natural gas drilling.  Prior, gas was often just burned off at the tip because it was uneconomical to transport.
Click to expand...


Ok I get you , I will just have to peruse on my own more about it.

It is nice to have someone on here who I dont always agree with but has respect for facts, it gives me hope for this country in the midst of all the clowns on here.


----------



## uscitizen

Toro said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Toro I respect your opinion and yeild to your superior knowledge on these matters but I would love some reading from you to proove to me the facts behind this matter.
> 
> I am unaware of any benifits to anything other than corporations  in his deregulation march.
> 
> If anyone can convince me here it would be you and I am willing to read what ever you present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stuff that I have read I read a long time ago and is industry research.  I don't know where it is on the Internet.
> 
> For example, the deregulation of the natural gas industry lead to a boom in natural gas drilling.  Prior, gas was often just burned off at the tip because it was uneconomical to transport.
Click to expand...


It also led to people spending a higher percentage of their income for natural gas.


----------



## AllieBaba

uscitizen said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.
> 
> He sold arms for hostages.
> 
> He increased racial tention.
> 
> He made children go hungry.
> 
> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That asshole ate kittens for breakfast and raped grandmothers too!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...


Naw, that would be unoriginal. Supporting material is bad, apparently.


----------



## zzzz

Madeline said:


> My opinion is, Reagan was a shitty president.  But the facts I gave to back up my opinion are not "made up".  If you are a Reaganophile, let's hear why you worship this man.
> 
> In my view, he failed America and we have been paying for it for over thirty years.



Lets see. Reagan took office in 1981, 1981 to 2010 is what 29 years? If we have been paying for it for over 30 years then it had to have been Carter not Reagan! 

And another thing all history is revisionist! It is always being rewritten by acedemics and with the age of electronic data I rue the day when the printed works of history are finally gone. History will be so manipulative that the holocaust will cease to exist, Hitler may never have existed or Stalin.  Glad I won't be around for that!


----------



## Madeline

uscitizen said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Toro I respect your opinion and yeild to your superior knowledge on these matters but I would love some reading from you to proove to me the facts behind this matter.
> 
> I am unaware of any benifits to anything other than corporations  in his deregulation march.
> 
> If anyone can convince me here it would be you and I am willing to read what ever you present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stuff that I have read I read a long time ago and is industry research.  I don't know where it is on the Internet.
> 
> For example, the deregulation of the natural gas industry lead to a boom in natural gas drilling.  Prior, gas was often just burned off at the tip because it was uneconomical to transport.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It also led to people spending a higher percentage of their income for natural gas.
Click to expand...


Natural gas is not the benign fuel you seem to think it is.


----------



## AllieBaba

Oh good lord.


----------



## Mad Scientist

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.


He's still better than Obama. AND Jimmy Carter. So there!


----------



## Madeline

I liked Carter but I'd agree, he was not an especially effective president.  Whether Obama is or not remains to be seen..it's a bit early to make that call.  As of today, both the left and the right seem hypercritical of him, and I think time will need to pass before we can evaluate his policies.

I expect (and I think Obama does as well) that he will be a one-term president, and that the next guy will be a conservative.  I'm not necessarially evaluating Reagan (or Obama) on their popularity -- in fact, the opposite it true.   I'm looking at what problems did they solve, how they affected the poor and middle class, and what costs were associated with their policies.

So far, in my view, Obama's big success has been the health care law.  Mark my words, even if it is repealed, people are no longer as mystified as to the issues and will no longer be willing to accept the abuses of the insurance industry of past years.  We may never get to nationalized health care in my lifetime, but we are far closer to universal coverage -- and in my view, that's a huge success.


----------



## geauxtohell

Reagan was good at acting presidential.  That's about it.


----------



## Toro

uscitizen said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Toro I respect your opinion and yeild to your superior knowledge on these matters but I would love some reading from you to proove to me the facts behind this matter.
> 
> I am unaware of any benifits to anything other than corporations  in his deregulation march.
> 
> If anyone can convince me here it would be you and I am willing to read what ever you present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stuff that I have read I read a long time ago and is industry research.  I don't know where it is on the Internet.
> 
> For example, the deregulation of the natural gas industry lead to a boom in natural gas drilling.  Prior, gas was often just burned off at the tip because it was uneconomical to transport.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It also led to people spending a higher percentage of their income for natural gas.
Click to expand...


Of course it has.  

When there wasn't much of it, how could they?


----------



## Queen

It's true. Reagan TRIPLED the national debt. It was 907,701,000,000.00 in 1980 and in 1989 it was 2,857,430,960,187.32  Government - Historical Debt Outstanding - Annual 1950 - 1999


And it was Reagan and his idiotic trickle down economics that started our down hill slide. He said we aren't a manufacturing country, we are a service country. And then he made sure it was true.


----------



## Big Fitz

Is this going to be the next strategy since running against W won't work again?


----------



## Madeline

I am hopeful, by examining the bias and hero worship we all tend to engage in, that we will not choose another Reagan to succeed Obama.  This country needs to stop pandering to the stupid and the hysterical.  We need someone who is smart as well as inspiring to lead us...and when I see the folks on here suggesting Palin as a viable Republican candidate in 2012, my skin crawls.

I don't want my government to "bring back family values" or "remember this is a christian nation".  I want to streamline the bloated federal payroll.  To ensure the food supply is safe.  To face the problem of clean air and rotting infrastructure and the fact that every crazy dictator on Planet Earth seems to be working on gaining nuclear weapons power.

If we choose again to spend our energies focusing on the bullshit, we are going to lose for good any chance we have to bring a decent public education system back to life.  We will see bread lines and hobo camps again.  I don't know who to suggest as a candidate -- but this distrust Republicans have developed for smart people who are capable of calm, reflective thought is so destructive, nothing worries me more.


----------



## AllieBaba

Lol.

Yeah, we Republicans just don't like smart people.

What a joke.


----------



## Madeline

Allie, in case it has escaped your notice, I'm a Republican.  Many very smart people in this party have been fearful of appearing so because they do not want to alienate the voters.  It's the "gee golly, I'm just a plain old country boy" routine...and it is not getting us where we need to go.

We cannot have the Democrats assume a public persona as the Party of Smart People Who Can Handle Complex Issues and become the Party of Knee Jerk Reactionaries.  The GOP needs candidates like Palin (or Gingrich, or Angle) like it needs another Watergate controversy.


----------



## AllieBaba

I don't think you're a Republican. Sorry.


----------



## Madeline

Well, I could scan my card, but I am reluctant to post an image of my personal data on the internet.  But trust me....I am, and have been for twenty years.


----------



## Kat

Though no man is perfect, my opinion is, Reagan was a great president. 

No offense Madeline; but if your card says Republican, your words say RINO.


----------



## Modbert

Kat said:


> Though no man is perfect, my opinion is, Reagan was a great president.
> 
> *No offense Madeline; but if your card says Republican, your words say RINO.*



 And if Reagan was around today, so would his.


----------



## Madeline

Well there's no loyalty oath but out of curiosity Kat, what do you think a person must support in order to be a Republican?


----------



## Dr Grump

I lived through Raygun, and he was considered a joke back then. I love revisionist history. Next thing you know, idiots will be spouting out that Drunk Joe McCarthy was an American Hero.


....stranger things have happened...


----------



## Kat

Modbert said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though no man is perfect, my opinion is, Reagan was a great president.
> 
> *No offense Madeline; but if your card says Republican, your words say RINO.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if Reagan was around today, so would his.
Click to expand...



Bullshit. You weren't even alive when he was president, dood, so don't go trying to educate me, okay?


----------



## AllieBaba

I lived through Reagan as well.

He was wonderful.


----------



## Kat

Dr Grump said:


> I lived through Raygun, and he was considered a joke back then. I love revisionist history. Next thing you know, idiots will be spouting out that Drunk Joe McCarthy was an American Hero.
> 
> 
> ....stranger things have happened...





Considered a joke by whom? 

And by no means do I think Reagan was a flipping hero.


----------



## AllieBaba

The truth means nothing to the left. They're still trying to tell us how we feel about Bush, as well.


----------



## Kat

AllieBaba said:


> The truth means nothing to the left. They're still trying to tell us how we feel about Bush, as well.



Yup. Amazing isn't it?


----------



## Dr Grump

Kat said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> I lived through Raygun, and he was considered a joke back then. I love revisionist history. Next thing you know, idiots will be spouting out that Drunk Joe McCarthy was an American Hero.
> 
> 
> ....stranger things have happened...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considered a joke by whom?
> 
> And by no means do I think Reagan was a flipping hero.
Click to expand...


Most people I know, and the press.....


----------



## Kat

Dr Grump said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> I lived through Raygun, and he was considered a joke back then. I love revisionist history. Next thing you know, idiots will be spouting out that Drunk Joe McCarthy was an American Hero.
> 
> 
> ....stranger things have happened...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considered a joke by whom?
> 
> And by no means do I think Reagan was a flipping hero.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most people I know, and the press.....
Click to expand...


The press? Wow, I am shocked!!


----------



## Dr Grump

You shouldn't be. Don't know why people liked him so...I want to know what he did that was so great...

...and please, don't say he brought down the USSR. That was well on the way to happening a good couple of decades before he came to power....


----------



## Madeline

Still awaiting that list of criteria for measuring a "real" Republican, Miss Kat.


----------



## Kat

Dr Grump said:


> You shouldn't be. *Don't know why people liked him so.*..I want to know what he did that was so great...
> 
> ...and please, don't say he brought down the USSR. That was well on the way to happening a good couple of decades before he came to power....




Oh? So now you are admitting that people liked him (so much)....


----------



## Modbert

Kat said:


> Bullshit. You weren't even alive when he was president, dood, so don't go trying to educate me, okay?



And neither of us were alive during the American Revolution, but we both know plenty about that too.


----------



## Dr Grump

Kat said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be. *Don't know why people liked him so.*..I want to know what he did that was so great...
> 
> ...and please, don't say he brought down the USSR. That was well on the way to happening a good couple of decades before he came to power....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh? So now you are admitting that people liked him (so much)....
Click to expand...


Of course people liked him...Hey, even Charlie Manson has fans ya know...


----------



## Modbert

Like I said previously, Ronald Reagan wouldn't be welcome in the GOP today.

Barry Goldwater, "Mr. Conservative" himself would be considered a Liberal by GOP standards today. Even he said so years before he died that his own party would consider him a Liberal.


----------



## Kat

Madeline said:


> Still awaiting that list of criteria for measuring a "real" Republican, Miss Kat.



Sorry, but you can just wait. You would merely do your usual pooh poohing, so I won't waste my time..tis getting late. Maybe tomorrow. 
But if you are staying up, you can tell me the answer to that, though I never said ''real'' Republican. You tell me why you are a Republican. How do you feel you are aligned with Republicans. And actually I am not trying to be cute here,  I am truly curious. 

Oh and lastly, as I have stated before, I am not a Republican. I am not a Party person.
I am a conservative.


----------



## Kat

Modbert said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. You weren't even alive when he was president, dood, so don't go trying to educate me, okay?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And neither of us were alive during the American Revolution, but we both know plenty about that too.
Click to expand...


Deflection. I DID live during Reagan...so I know first hand. BIG difference from reading.


----------



## Kat

modbert said:


> *like i said previously, ronald reagan wouldn't be welcome in the gop today.*
> 
> barry goldwater, "mr. Conservative" himself would be considered a liberal by gop standards today. Even he said so years before he died that his own party would consider him a liberal.



fail


----------



## Kat

Dr Grump said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be. *Don't know why people liked him so.*..I want to know what he did that was so great...
> 
> ...and please, don't say he brought down the USSR. That was well on the way to happening a good couple of decades before he came to power....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh? So now you are admitting that people liked him (so much)....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course people liked him...Hey, even Charlie Manson has fans ya know...
Click to expand...


----------



## Modbert

Kat said:


> Deflection. I DID live during Reagan...so I know first hand. BIG difference from reading.



Not a deflection. I've read plenty about Reagan. One can see whether Reagan would be welcome based on his positions.


----------



## Modbert

Kat said:


> fail



Not fail. Though I noticed you avoiding saying the same about my remarks concerning the definition of modern Conservatism, Mr. Barry Goldwater.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Dr Grump said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> I lived through Raygun, and he was considered a joke back then. I love revisionist history. Next thing you know, idiots will be spouting out that Drunk Joe McCarthy was an American Hero.
> 
> 
> ....stranger things have happened...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considered a joke by whom?
> 
> And by no means do I think Reagan was a flipping hero.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most people I know, and the press.....
Click to expand...


In other words, no one who matters a fart in a windstorm's worth.  Which would have been my guess, anyway.


----------



## Kat

Modbert said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> fail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not fail. Though I noticed you avoiding saying the same about my remarks concerning the definition of modern Conservatism, Mr. Barry Goldwater.
Click to expand...


Naw, I didn't avoid anything. The thread is about Reagan. 
Kennedy would be a Republican/conservative now days. See? It could go on and on...


----------



## Kat

cecilie1200 said:


> dr grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> considered a joke by whom?
> 
> And by no means do i think reagan was a flipping hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> most people i know, and the press.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> in other words, no one who matters a fart in a windstorm's worth.  Which would have been my guess, anyway.
Click to expand...



rotfl!


----------



## Modbert

Kat said:


> Naw, I didn't avoid anything. The thread is about Reagan.
> Kennedy would be a Republican/conservative now days. See? It could go on and on...



I doubt it. He might be a Blue Dog Democrat but he'd be a Democrat. He wouldn't of been welcome in the GOP for many of the same reasons as Reagan.

Though, perhaps you can tell me why Reagan would be welcome in the GOP today?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Madeline said:


> Still awaiting that list of criteria for measuring a "real" Republican, Miss Kat.



Here's a good place to start.

http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/

I'd say a "real" Republican ought to identify with at least a simple majority of the party's platform.  So how much of that do YOU agree with?


----------



## Kat

Modbert said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naw, I didn't avoid anything. The thread is about Reagan.
> Kennedy would be a Republican/conservative now days. See? It could go on and on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt it. He might be a Blue Dog Democrat but he'd be a Democrat. He wouldn't of been welcome in the GOP for many of the same reasons as Reagan.
> 
> Though, perhaps you can tell me why Reagan would be welcome in the GOP today?
Click to expand...


Yes, I can tell you why.


----------



## Madeline

I'm tired too, but I'm in a little pain so I can't sleep.  Lemme see if I can sum it up:

*  The more people who work for (or better yet own) small businesses, the better off we are.

*  Government should not be antagonistic to business if possible, especially not to small business.

*  Growth in government (especially payroll) is bad and should be avoided.

*  We should help disadvantaged people to alter their circumstances.  Permanent, lifetime support should not be on offer unless that person is severely disabled.

*  Tax laws and regulations should be as simple as possible.

*  We need clean air and natural places, but we must balance those needs against the economic needs of communities affected by changes in our energy policies.

*  We need a national defense, but the purpose of a standing military is not to support defense contractors.

*  Some things are better done by the private sector rather than government.  Very little is best done by government.

*  The primary aim of all law enforcement and corrections must be the safety and security of the nation and our communities.  

*  The primary aim of public education must be the highest possible quality work force.

*  The greatest asset of this nation is its middle class; everything that can be done to expand it should be considered.

*  The privacy and civil rights of individuals should not be denied by the government unless there is a compelling reason.

*  No one who entered the US illegally should attain citizenship here.


----------



## Modbert

Kat said:


> Yes, I can tell you why.



...Okay, can you tell me then? Or is there a secret decoder ring I gotta get out of a cereal box to find out?


----------



## Madeline

So can I.

* Because he was a good looking white man.

*  Because he wrapped himself in the flag and had a lot of catchy slogans about "real Americans".

*  Because he tapped into the fears many Americans had after Vietnam, Nixon, and the Iran Hostage Crisis.

Etc.


----------



## Jeremy

Are there any on the left here, that have such a strong hatred for this "imbecil" of a president, that have any empethy for his actions as president? Is there anything he did that was good? Or does empathy and open mindedness die at the (R) behind his name? I mean for fuck's sake, Even I can find good things that (D) presidents have done. Anyone here dare to leave the "comfort" of hyperpartisanship?


----------



## Woyzeck

Modbert said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Deflection. I DID live during Reagan...so I know first hand. BIG difference from reading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a deflection. I've read plenty about Reagan. One can see whether Reagan would be welcome based on his positions.
Click to expand...


And none of us were alive during the time of the Founders and yet they get quoted and we have discussions for their intents and wants and fears all the time.


----------



## Toro

Dr Grump said:


> You shouldn't be. Don't know why people liked him so...I want to know what he did that was so great...
> 
> ...and please, don't say he brought down the USSR. That was well on the way to happening a good couple of decades before he came to power....



Reagan gave belief to Americans again.  He made them feel proud of the United States after perhaps the lowest decade since the Great Depression.

Not every American, of course.  There is no such thing as unanimity in politics or history.

He also embodied what many believe to be the American ideals - individualism, strength, self-reliance.  Few foreigners understand this about American culture.  This is a big reason why he is revered by the Right in America.


----------



## Big Fitz

Reagan not welcome today?  

ROFL.  Only those who hated him then or never lived through him would believe such a thing.

The man had "IT" even more than Clinton was a rock star.  The man would have dominated the mealy mouthed progressive washington set even more than he did in the 1980s.  Why?  Because when he was in politics there was no Fox News or Talk Radio helping him.  All media was set FIRMLY against him save for small pockets of individual defenders.  But even then, many democrats turned on their progressofascist masters and left the party to vote for Reagan in a way that would make P-BO's white liberal guilt vote jealous.

Reagan today, by the very nature of the resources available would dominate in a way not seen since FDR played being king for 4 terms.


----------



## uscitizen

Toro said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be. Don't know why people liked him so...I want to know what he did that was so great...
> 
> ...and please, don't say he brought down the USSR. That was well on the way to happening a good couple of decades before he came to power....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan gave belief to Americans again.  He made them feel proud of the United States after perhaps the lowest decade since the Great Depression.
> 
> Not every American, of course.  There is no such thing as unanimity in politics or history.
> 
> He also embodied what many believe to be the American ideals - individualism, strength, self-reliance.  Few foreigners understand this about American culture.  This is a big reason why he is revered by the Right in America.
Click to expand...


Yeah Astrology!
Tarus doodle dandy.


----------



## Madeline

Yes, Reagan had charisma.  So does Obama.  That alone will not make either one a great president.

And Jeremy, I don't despise Reagan.  He died a gruesome death and I was saddened by it.  What I object to is the worship of Reagan as if somehow if we are just "christian" enough, we can solve our problems.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.



Progressives need to lie about everything. They lie about the Greatness of FDR and not surprisingly, they lie about truly great Presidents like Reagan and Harding.

"Trickle down economics" is a derisive phrase describing letting the private sector get back to work. The Private sector is the main engine of prosperity in this nation and FDR's New Deal and Obama's Stimulus highlight the utter, total failure of Big Gubbamint trying to "Create jobs"

"He expanded the national debt" is a phase used by ignoramuses who think Reagan was a dictator or Monarch and not a US President.  At no time in his Presidency did the Republicans ever control Congress. Reagan proposed eliminating the Dept of Education and the Democrats told him "FUCK YOU AND YOUR SPENDING CUTS!!"

The other "points" are just too stupid to address and I won't waste the electrons in the effort.

Also, notice how the OP forgot to mention Regan's greatest accomplishment. He set as a goal the dismantling of the USSR and made it happen. This burns progressives like Dracula to sunlight.

To recap: Progressives lie. When they're not lying about what made them great, they lie about great people to try to make them look bad.
*
Progressives lie.*


----------



## Jeremy

Madeline said:


> Yes, Reagan had charisma.  So does Obama.  That alone will not make either one a great president.
> 
> And Jeremy, I don't despise Reagan.  He died a gruesome death and I was saddened by it.  What I object to is the worship of Reagan as if somehow if we are just "christian" enough, we can solve our problems.



Point well taken. I'm sure than that you understand the point from those that object to Obama "worship". Placing any president on too high of a pedestal is not healthy.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Toro said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be. Don't know why people liked him so...I want to know what he did that was so great...
> 
> ...and please, don't say he brought down the USSR. That was well on the way to happening a good couple of decades before he came to power....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan gave belief to Americans again.  He made them feel proud of the United States after perhaps the lowest decade since the Great Depression.
> 
> Not every American, of course.  There is no such thing as unanimity in politics or history.
> 
> He also embodied what many believe to be the American ideals - individualism, strength, self-reliance.  Few foreigners understand this about American culture.  This is a big reason why he is revered by the Right in America.
Click to expand...


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Toro again.


----------



## boedicca

Madeline said:


> Yes, Reagan had charisma.  So does Obama.  That alone will not make either one a great president.
> 
> And Jeremy, I don't despise Reagan.  He died a gruesome death and I was saddened by it.  What I object to is the worship of Reagan as if somehow if we are just "christian" enough, we can solve our problems.





That is hardly why Reagan is admired.   Toro's post above summarizes The Why very well - and it has nothing to do with Being Christian Enough.


----------



## Jeremy

Madeline said:


> So can I.
> 
> * Because he was a good looking white man.
> 
> *  Because he wrapped himself in the flag and had a lot of catchy slogans about "real Americans".
> 
> *  Because he tapped into the fears many Americans had after Vietnam, Nixon, and the Iran Hostage Crisis.
> 
> Etc.



The same can be said about Obama however...

* He is a good looking man.

* He had a lot of catchy logos and slogans like "Yes we can" and "Change we can believe in"

*  He tapped into the fears many Americans had about war, Bush and the economy.


C'est la vie.

It's all about capitalizing on the moment and getting the vote. 

May the best salesperson win.


----------



## Big Fitz

I never got that from Reagan that it was all about being "Christian Enough".

He DID make it a morality issue and believed in objective-absolutist morals.  That is why the cold war became a good vs evil issue, because he truely believed that the US was the last example of Good in the world.  And at that time, that was a very powerful thing to realize.  That feeling lasted till the second term of Clinton, and the impeachment trial and constant drumbeat of the media that we as a nation sucked dispelled it.


----------



## Modbert

Big Fitz said:


> *I never got that from Reagan that it was all about being "Christian Enough".*
> 
> He DID make it a morality issue and believed in objective-absolutist morals.  That is why the cold war became a good vs evil issue, because he truely believed that the US was the last example of Good in the world.  And at that time, that was a very powerful thing to realize.  That feeling lasted till the second term of Clinton, and the impeachment trial and constant drumbeat of the media that we as a nation sucked dispelled it.



He's the reason why the Religious Right controls the GOP today.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Reagan referred to God -- and he meant it. I think it must have burned Progressive ears to hear him speak so affectionately that he was the servant of a higher power that wasn't Mo' n Bigga Gubbamint


----------



## Big Fitz

Modbert said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I never got that from Reagan that it was all about being "Christian Enough".*
> 
> He DID make it a morality issue and believed in objective-absolutist morals.  That is why the cold war became a good vs evil issue, because he truely believed that the US was the last example of Good in the world.  And at that time, that was a very powerful thing to realize.  That feeling lasted till the second term of Clinton, and the impeachment trial and constant drumbeat of the media that we as a nation sucked dispelled it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's the reason why the Religious Right controls the GOP today.
Click to expand...

ROFL... the religious right controls the GOP...!  Whatta joke!  As compared to the DNC, they have influence, but control?  Shit... we wouldn't have had McCain then.  we woulda had Huckabee.


----------



## rikules

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.



I must admit that I wasn't really paying attention at the time....

however
your post makes me think....wonder....

who WOULD be a great president today?

I can't actually think of a person (in or out of politics) who makes me think/feel/believe...

"now THAT person would make a GREAT president!"....?

and now I think of a second question....

the presidents of the past who we now consider to be GREAT...washington, lincoln,  FDR (? perhaps)

were they REALLY great presidents are just men who happened to be in the right place at the right time?

just thinking......


----------



## Big Fitz

CrusaderFrank said:


> Reagan referred to God -- and he meant it. I think it must have burned Progressive ears to hear him speak so affectionately that he was the servant of a higher power that wasn't Mo' n Bigga Gubbamint


That's what scared the moral relativists and atheists.  To them, he was the personification of religious insanity.  He said it, and believed it and lived it.


----------



## Modbert

Big Fitz said:


> ROFL... the religious right controls the GOP...!  Whatta joke!  As compared to the DNC, they have influence, but control?  Shit... we wouldn't have had McCain then.



Control of what matters most in the GOP, positions. As Barry Goldwater, Mr. Conservative himself once said, he'd be considered a Liberal in his party at the rate the party was going.

Barry Goldwater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> By the 1980s, with Ronald Reagan as president and the growing involvement of the religious right in conservative politics, Goldwater's libertarian views on personal issues were revealed; he believed that they were an integral part of true conservatism. Goldwater viewed abortion as a matter of personal choice, not intended for government intervention.[36]





> After his retirement in 1987, Goldwater described the conservative Arizona Governor Evan Mecham as "hardheaded" and called on him to resign, and two years later stated that the Republican party had been taken over by a "bunch of kooks".[39]
> 
> In a 1994 interview with the Washington Post the retired senator said,
> When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.[40]





> A few years before his death he went so far as to address the right wing, "Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and you've hurt the Republican party much more than the Democrats have."[48]


----------



## Madeline

IMO, the greatest president (certainly in my lifetime, and mebbe in all) was LBJ.  He gave up his political ambitions and popularity to pass the Civil Rights Act and attendant legislation.  Yes, he was a fuck up where Vietnam was concerned, but what he did took guts and propelled this nation forward in a way no other president has done.

That is what I want in a president:  someone with the brains and guts to do the right thing wihout pandering to his critics or his supporters.  Just Get It Done.


----------



## rikules

Big Fitz said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I never got that from Reagan that it was all about being "Christian Enough".*
> 
> He DID make it a morality issue and believed in objective-absolutist morals.  That is why the cold war became a good vs evil issue, because he truely believed that the US was the last example of Good in the world.  And at that time, that was a very powerful thing to realize.  That feeling lasted till the second term of Clinton, and the impeachment trial and constant drumbeat of the media that we as a nation sucked dispelled it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's the reason why the Religious Right controls the GOP today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ROFL... the religious right controls the GOP...!  Whatta joke!  As compared to the DNC, they have influence, but control?  Shit... we wouldn't have had McCain then.  we woulda had Huckabee.
Click to expand...



I wouldn't say that the religious right CONTROLS the GOP but I WOULD say that they wield great influence...

when g bush the 2nd was in office for 8 years he (or his people) had weekly (thursdays, I believe) meetings with representatives of the religious right

where-as...
I wasn't invited to ANY of those meetings....

as for mccain (a man I like and admire and would have GLADLY voted for president because I trust him to represent ALL Americans), most people agree that his choice of palin was  a gesture to the christian right

however
I agree with part of your statement;  if the gop were CONTROLLED by the religious right then mccain would NEVER have been nominated

perhaps that is an indication that MOST republicans are NOT as enamored of the right wing as ann coulter and rush limbaugh wish they were...?

that would be encouraging....

moderation in all things!
especially politics


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Madeline said:


> IMO, the greatest president (certainly in my lifetime, and mebbe in all) was LBJ.  He gave up his political ambitions and popularity to pass the Civil Rights Act and attendant legislation.  Yes, he was a fuck up where Vietnam was concerned, but what he did took guts and propelled this nation forward in a way no other president has done.
> 
> That is what I want in a president:  someone with the brains and guts to do the right thing wihout pandering to his critics or his supporters.  Just Get It Done.



&#8220;I'll have those ******* voting Democratic for the next 200 years&#8221; -- Lyndon B. Johnson.

Also, Ike passed the first Civil Rights Act.

You can keep lying all you want, but Progressive loss of the Media Monopoly makes you look ridiculous


----------



## Madeline

Big Fitz said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan referred to God -- and he meant it. I think it must have burned Progressive ears to hear him speak so affectionately that he was the servant of a higher power that wasn't Mo' n Bigga Gubbamint
> 
> 
> 
> That's what scared the moral relativists and atheists.  To them, he was the personification of religious insanity.  He said it, and believed it and lived it.
Click to expand...


This man whom you idolize for his faith was busy getting his tarot cards read to decide matters of national importance.  He was a terrible christian by any measure...a hypocrite, a manipulator and a coward.

And BTW, my Big Fizzy friend, since you have bitched about what crappy parents hippies were I assume you were in diapers while Reagan was in office.  Is there some reason you are writing as if you remember him?


----------



## Madeline

CrusaderFrank said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, the greatest president (certainly in my lifetime, and mebbe in all) was LBJ.  He gave up his political ambitions and popularity to pass the Civil Rights Act and attendant legislation.  Yes, he was a fuck up where Vietnam was concerned, but what he did took guts and propelled this nation forward in a way no other president has done.
> 
> That is what I want in a president:  someone with the brains and guts to do the right thing wihout pandering to his critics or his supporters.  Just Get It Done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have those ******* voting Democratic for the next 200 years -- Lyndon B. Johnson.
> 
> Also, Ike passed the first Civil Rights Act.
> 
> You can keep lying all you want, but Progressive loss of the Media Monopoly makes you look ridiculous
Click to expand...


What Civil Rights Act are you referring to Frank?


----------



## Modbert

CrusaderFrank said:


> Also, Ike passed the first Civil Rights Act.



Eisenhower, perhaps the most Liberal President of the 20th century and another man who would be considered a RINO in the modern day GOP.

Thanks for pointing that out Frank.


----------



## Big Fitz

Modbert said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL... the religious right controls the GOP...!  Whatta joke!  As compared to the DNC, they have influence, but control?  Shit... we wouldn't have had McCain then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Control of what matters most in the GOP, positions. As Barry Goldwater, Mr. Conservative himself once said, he'd be considered a Liberal in his party at the rate the party was going.
> 
> Barry Goldwater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the 1980s, with Ronald Reagan as president and the growing involvement of the religious right in conservative politics, Goldwater's libertarian views on personal issues were revealed; he believed that they were an integral part of true conservatism. Goldwater viewed abortion as a matter of personal choice, not intended for government intervention.[36]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After his retirement in 1987, Goldwater described the conservative Arizona Governor Evan Mecham as "hardheaded" and called on him to resign, and two years later stated that the Republican party had been taken over by a "bunch of kooks".[39]
> 
> In a 1994 interview with the Washington Post the retired senator said,
> When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.[40]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few years before his death he went so far as to address the right wing, "Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and you've hurt the Republican party much more than the Democrats have."[48]
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The peak of the "Religious Right's" supposed control was in the first term of the Bush admin.  It has rapidly collapsed ever since because it was exposed as nothing more than social progressivism in the guise of religion.  It was quickly exposed to just wanting to push government to forward religion, and W's Compassionate Conservatism was no different than the lib's social justice except using Churches instead of atheistic non-profits.

And now in this age of not being able to pay for this out of control spending, who, in the Christian Coalition is left to run and is looking successful?  Hardly anyone.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Modbert said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Ike passed the first Civil Rights Act.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eisenhower, perhaps the most Liberal President of the 20th century and another man who would be considered a RINO in the modern day GOP.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out Frank.
Click to expand...


No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Madeline said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, the greatest president (certainly in my lifetime, and mebbe in all) was LBJ.  He gave up his political ambitions and popularity to pass the Civil Rights Act and attendant legislation.  Yes, he was a fuck up where Vietnam was concerned, but what he did took guts and propelled this nation forward in a way no other president has done.
> 
> That is what I want in a president:  someone with the brains and guts to do the right thing wihout pandering to his critics or his supporters.  Just Get It Done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;I'll have those ******* voting Democratic for the next 200 years&#8221; -- Lyndon B. Johnson.
> 
> Also, Ike passed the first Civil Rights Act.
> 
> You can keep lying all you want, but Progressive loss of the Media Monopoly makes you look ridiculous
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What Civil Rights Act are you referring to Frank?
Click to expand...


Digital Documents and Photographs Project

"In 1957, President Eisenhower sent Congress a proposal for civil rights legislation.  The result was the Civil Rights Act of 1957, the first civil rights legislation since Reconstruction. "

Seriously? You never heard of the 1957 Civil Rights Act? Are you *THAT* brain washed?

Are you *THAT* uninformed?

You see now why Progressives only way to keep lying is to shut down the Internet, right?

It took my breath away when I realized how badly I've been lied to by Progressives in school and in the media


----------



## Modbert

CrusaderFrank said:


> No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.



 You let me know when he starts sounding like a Conservative:

Presidency of Dwight D. Eisenhower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Eisenhower believed that taxes could not be cut until the budget was balanced. *"We cannot afford to reduce taxes, [and] reduce income," he said, "until we have in sight a program of expenditure that shows that the factors of income and outgo will be balanced." Eisenhower kept the national debt low and inflation near zero.[7]



Gosh, he refuses to cut taxes. And what is one of the GOP's main issues today? Extending the Bush Tax Cuts!



> Democrats attacked Eisenhower for not taking a public stand against Senator Joseph McCarthy's anti-communist campaigns. Privately he held McCarthy in contempt, saying, *"I just won't get down in the gutter with that man." Eisenhower worked behind the scenes to weaken McCarthy, and helped cause his downfall in 1954*.



Gosh Frank! He just attacked your hero that you've created countless threads on USMB over the past couple days! 



> Eisenhower promoted the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956, which created the United States' Interstate Highways.[10]* It was the largest public works program in U.S. history, providing a 41,000-mile highway system.* Eisenhower had been impressed during the war with the German Autobahn system, and also recalled his own involvement in a military convoy in 1919 that took 62 days to cross the U.S. Another achievement was a 20% increase in family income during his presidency, of which he was very proud.



But wait! You attack the New Deal all the time, and that included numerous amounts of public works! 



> Throughout his presidency, Eisenhower preached a doctrine of dynamic conservatism.[43] *He continued all the major New Deal programs still in operation, especially Social Security. He expanded its programs and rolled them into a new cabinet-level agency, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, while extending benefits to an additional ten million workers.* His cabinet, consisting of several corporate executives and one labor leader, was dubbed by one journalist, "Eight millionaires and a plumber."[44]





And for the nail in the coffin:

Ike Wanted to Spread Wealth, Too | CommonDreams.org



> In some countries, this notable stated, &#8220;a few families are fabulously wealthy, contribute far less than they should in taxes, and are indifferent to the poverty of the great masses of the people.&#8221; &#8220;A country in this situation,&#8221; he went on, &#8220;is fraught with continual instability.&#8221;
> 
> Just who made this spread-the-wealth declaration against the dangers societies invite when they let wealth concentrate? The then-president of the United States, Dwight D. Eisenhower.
> 
> Ike&#8217;s words back in 1960 created no controversy. Americans overwhelmingly shared his spread-the-wealth convictions. Societies that discourage vast accumulations of private wealth, they believed, simply work better.





> The U.S. tax code, back then, reflected this consensus. Income more than $400,000 a year &#8212; that&#8217;s a bit more than $3 million today, after adjusting for inflation &#8212; faced a 91 percent tax rate.
> 
> The rich of Ike&#8217;s day, of course, exploited tax loopholes, just like today&#8217;s rich. But even after exploiting loopholes, the wealthy of the Eisenhower years still paid a hefty share of their income in taxes.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Modbert said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You let me know when he starts sounding like a Conservative:
> 
> Presidency of Dwight D. Eisenhower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Eisenhower believed that taxes could not be cut until the budget was balanced. *"We cannot afford to reduce taxes, [and] reduce income," he said, "until we have in sight a program of expenditure that shows that the factors of income and outgo will be balanced." Eisenhower kept the national debt low and inflation near zero.[7]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gosh, he refuses to cut taxes. And what is one of the GOP's main issues today? Extending the Bush Tax Cuts!
> 
> 
> 
> Gosh Frank! He just attacked your hero that you've created countless threads on USMB over the past couple days!
> 
> 
> 
> But wait! You attack the New Deal all the time, and that included numerous amounts of public works!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And for the nail in the coffin:
> 
> Ike Wanted to Spread Wealth, Too | CommonDreams.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In some countries, this notable stated, a few families are fabulously wealthy, contribute far less than they should in taxes, and are indifferent to the poverty of the great masses of the people. A country in this situation, he went on, is fraught with continual instability.
> 
> Just who made this spread-the-wealth declaration against the dangers societies invite when they let wealth concentrate? The then-president of the United States, Dwight D. Eisenhower.
> 
> Ikes words back in 1960 created no controversy. Americans overwhelmingly shared his spread-the-wealth convictions. Societies that discourage vast accumulations of private wealth, they believed, simply work better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. tax code, back then, reflected this consensus. Income more than $400,000 a year  thats a bit more than $3 million today, after adjusting for inflation  faced a 91 percent tax rate.
> 
> The rich of Ikes day, of course, exploited tax loopholes, just like todays rich. But even after exploiting loopholes, the wealthy of the Eisenhower years still paid a hefty share of their income in taxes.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Have a grown up read this to you, you clearly didn't understand it:

No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.


----------



## Modbert

CrusaderFrank said:


> Have a grown up read this to you, you clearly didn't understand it:
> 
> *No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.*



If that's the case, then why did Reagan oppose these Civil Right Acts? 

You didn't even bother to read what I posted because it goes against all you wish to believe. Problem with the internet these days is there's always a place for people such as yourself to have your beliefs validated whether they be true or not.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Modbert said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have a grown up read this to you, you clearly didn't understand it:
> 
> *No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the case, then why did Reagan oppose these Civil Right Acts?
> 
> You didn't even bother to read what I posted because it goes against all you wish to believe. Problem with the internet these days is there's always a place for people such as yourself to have your beliefs validated whether they be true or not.
Click to expand...


Progressives claim Reagan was a racist like FDR and LBJ, who am I to argue?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Modbert said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have a grown up read this to you, you clearly didn't understand it:
> 
> *No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the case, then why did Reagan oppose these Civil Right Acts?
> 
> You didn't even bother to read what I posted because it goes against all you wish to believe. Problem with the internet these days is there's always a place for people such as yourself to have your beliefs validated whether they be true or not.
Click to expand...


Also, Reagan never used blacks in ways that would influence the Nazis like FDR did with his Tuskegee Experiments.

Further, Reagan never claimed that he'd have "them ******* voting" Republican "for the next 200 years" the way your boy LBJ claimed.

Yeah, Reagan, such a racist!


----------



## Jeremy

Modbert said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have a grown up read this to you, you clearly didn't understand it:
> 
> *No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the case, then *why did Reagan oppose these Civil Right Acts*?
Click to expand...


Probably because he used to be a democrat.

October 13, 1858
During Lincoln-Douglas debates, U.S. Senator Stephen Douglas (D-IL) states: I do not regard the Negro as my equal, and positively deny that he is my brother, or any kin to me whatever; Douglas became Democratic Partys 1860 presidential nominee

April 16, 1862
President Lincoln signs bill abolishing slavery in District of Columbia; in Congress, 99% of Republicans vote yes, 83% of Democrats vote no

July 17, 1862
Over unanimous Democrat opposition, Republican Congress passes Confiscation Act stating that slaves of the Confederacy shall be forever free

January 31, 1865
13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. House with unanimous Republican support, intense Democrat opposition

April 8, 1865
13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. Senate with 100% Republican support, 63% Democrat opposition

November 22, 1865
Republicans denounce Democrat legislature of Mississippi for enacting black codes, which institutionalized racial discrimination

February 5, 1866
U.S. Rep. Thaddeus Stevens (R-PA) introduces legislation, successfully opposed by Democrat President Andrew Johnson, to implement 40 acres and a mule relief by distributing land to former slaves

*1964 civil rights act vote tally*
Senate: 7719

Democrats: 4717 (73%-27%) 
Republicans: 302 (*94%-6%*) 


House: 33385

Democrats: 22161 (78%-22%) 
Republicans: 11224 (*82%-18%*) 

*2006*
George W. Bush signs 25 year extension of The National Voting Rights Act of 1965 

Que the .... "But all the racist democrats are now republicans" rebuttal in 3...2...1...


----------



## Woyzeck

CrusaderFrank said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Ike passed the first Civil Rights Act.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eisenhower, perhaps the most Liberal President of the 20th century and another man who would be considered a RINO in the modern day GOP.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out Frank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.
Click to expand...


_That's_ the litmus test for conservatism? You've tossed any specific policy out the window and decided to make it something everyone agrees upon? 

What's next? You're a creationist if you agree the sun rises in the east? Someone who believes in the evolutionary theory is someone who agrees that mammals are birthed? I could come up with these straw-man arguments all day.


----------



## Modbert

CrusaderFrank said:


> Also, Reagan never used blacks in ways that would influence the Nazis like FDR did with his Tuskegee Experiments.
> 
> Further, Reagan never claimed that he'd have "them ******* voting" Republican "for the next 200 years" the way your boy LBJ claimed.
> 
> Yeah, Reagan, such a racist!



So those two things make it okay for Reagan to oppose the Civil Right Acts? Got it.


----------



## Big Fitz

Jeremy said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have a grown up read this to you, you clearly didn't understand it:
> 
> *No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the case, then *why did Reagan oppose these Civil Right Acts*?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably because he used to be a democrat.
> 
> October 13, 1858
> During Lincoln-Douglas debates, U.S. Senator Stephen Douglas (D-IL) states: I do not regard the Negro as my equal, and positively deny that he is my brother, or any kin to me whatever; Douglas became Democratic Partys 1860 presidential nominee
> 
> April 16, 1862
> President Lincoln signs bill abolishing slavery in District of Columbia; in Congress, 99% of Republicans vote yes, 83% of Democrats vote no
> 
> July 17, 1862
> Over unanimous Democrat opposition, Republican Congress passes Confiscation Act stating that slaves of the Confederacy shall be forever free
> 
> January 31, 1865
> 13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. House with unanimous Republican support, intense Democrat opposition
> 
> April 8, 1865
> 13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. Senate with 100% Republican support, 63% Democrat opposition
> 
> November 22, 1865
> Republicans denounce Democrat legislature of Mississippi for enacting black codes, which institutionalized racial discrimination
> 
> February 5, 1866
> U.S. Rep. Thaddeus Stevens (R-PA) introduces legislation, successfully opposed by Democrat President Andrew Johnson, to implement 40 acres and a mule relief by distributing land to former slaves
> 
> *1964 civil rights act vote tally*
> Senate: 7719
> 
> Democrats: 4717 (73%-27%)
> Republicans: 302 (*94%-6%*)
> 
> 
> House: 33385
> 
> Democrats: 22161 (78%-22%)
> Republicans: 11224 (*82%-18%*)
> 
> *2006*
> George W. Bush signs 25 year extension of The National Voting Rights Act of 1965
> 
> Que the .... "But all the racist democrats are now republicans" rebuttal in 3...2...1...
Click to expand...

All I'm going to say about Ike is that he was a disappointing president in that he was a very 'do nothing' president.  His major accomplishment was the interstate system, and that's a fantastic accomplishment on par with the Transcontinental Railroad.

In all fairness Jeremy, remember, the Republican party was formed as a fusion of the Whig Unionists and Abolitionist forces.


----------



## Modbert

Jeremy said:


> *1964 civil rights act vote tally*
> Senate: 77&#8211;19
> 
> Democrats: 47&#8211;17 (73%-27%)
> Republicans: 30&#8211;2 (*94%-6%*)
> 
> 
> House: 333&#8211;85
> 
> Democrats: 221&#8211;61 (78%-22%)
> Republicans: 112&#8211;24 (*82%-18%*)



Hello there! The Southern Strategy would like a word with you when you have a moment!

Oddly enough, seems like you just accidentally forgot to include that in your little timeline.


----------



## Woyzeck

CrusaderFrank said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have a grown up read this to you, you clearly didn't understand it:
> 
> *No, Ike stood up for the Constitutional rights of individuals, that makes him a Conservative.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the case, then why did Reagan oppose these Civil Right Acts?
> 
> You didn't even bother to read what I posted because it goes against all you wish to believe. Problem with the internet these days is there's always a place for people such as yourself to have your beliefs validated whether they be true or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Also, Reagan never used blacks in ways that would influence the Nazis like FDR did with his Tuskegee Experiments.
> 
> Further, Reagan never claimed that he'd have "them ******* voting" Republican "for the next 200 years" the way your boy LBJ claimed.
> 
> Yeah, Reagan, such a racist!
Click to expand...


Dude, dude, dude, give credit where credit is due. Woodrow Wilson was far more of a dickbag in terms of racism that any politician we've had. He re-segregated the federal government after it got de-segregated after the Civil War and was a friggin' white supremacist.


----------



## Jeremy

Modbert said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *1964 civil rights act vote tally*
> Senate: 7719
> 
> Democrats: 4717 (73%-27%)
> Republicans: 302 (*94%-6%*)
> 
> 
> House: 33385
> 
> Democrats: 22161 (78%-22%)
> Republicans: 11224 (*82%-18%*)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello there! The Southern Strategy would like a word with you when you have a moment!
> 
> Oddly enough, seems like you just accidentally forgot to include that in your little timeline.
Click to expand...



The point I'm making is that racism is "party blind". No matter how much people on the left like to scream about their moral superiority on the issue.


----------



## Jeremy

Modbert said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *1964 civil rights act vote tally*
> Senate: 7719
> 
> Democrats: 4717 (73%-27%)
> Republicans: 302 (*94%-6%*)
> 
> 
> House: 33385
> 
> Democrats: 22161 (78%-22%)
> Republicans: 11224 (*82%-18%*)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello there! *The Southern Strategy *would like a word with you when you have a moment!
> 
> Oddly enough, seems like you just accidentally forgot to include that in your little timeline.
Click to expand...



Nixon was an idiot. And the RNC has apologized.   ...better late than never. But hey, it worked for Byrd so why not the RNC right?. 
RNC Chief to Say It Was 'Wrong' to Exploit Racial Conflict for Votes - washingtonpost.com

July 14, 2005


> Ken Mehlman, the Republican National Committee chairman, this morning will tell the NAACP national convention in Milwaukee that it was "wrong."
> 
> "By the '70s and into the '80s and '90s, the Democratic Party solidified its gains in the African American community, and we Republicans did not effectively reach out," Mehlman says in his prepared text. "Some Republicans gave up on winning the African American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization. I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you* we were wrong*."


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Modbert said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Reagan never used blacks in ways that would influence the Nazis like FDR did with his Tuskegee Experiments.
> 
> Further, Reagan never claimed that he'd have "them ******* voting" Republican "for the next 200 years" the way your boy LBJ claimed.
> 
> Yeah, Reagan, such a racist!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So those two things make it okay for Reagan to oppose the Civil Right Acts? Got it.
Click to expand...


No, you have it wrong. The question is: "What horrible disease should Reagan have inflicted on blacks to be as revered as FRD, ebola, dengue fever, marburg?"


----------



## Modbert

Jeremy said:


> Nixon was an idiot. And the RNC has apologized.   ...better late than never. But hey, it worked for Byrd so why not the RNC right?.
> RNC Chief to Say It Was 'Wrong' to Exploit Racial Conflict for Votes - washingtonpost.com
> 
> July 14, 2005
> 
> 
> 
> Ken Mehlman, the Republican National Committee chairman, this morning will tell the NAACP national convention in Milwaukee that it was "wrong."
> 
> "By the '70s and into the '80s and '90s, the Democratic Party solidified its gains in the African American community, and we Republicans did not effectively reach out," Mehlman says in his prepared text. "Some Republicans gave up on winning the African American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization. I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you* we were wrong*."
Click to expand...


Wat. It wasn't just Nixon, and Nixon wasn't even the first.


----------



## Modbert

Michael Steele Acknowledges GOP Had &#8220;Southern Strategy&#8221; For Decades | The Plum Line



> A lot of people are pointing to a new set of remarks Michael Steele made about the Republican Party and race, in which Steele acknowledged that the GOP hasnt given African Americans a reason to support the party.
> 
> But I think folks are missing the real news in what Steele said. The RNC chairman also appeared to acknowledge that the GOP has had a race-based southern strategy for four decades, which is decidedly not a historical interpretation many Republicans agree with.





> For the last 40-plus years we had a Southern Strategy that alienated many minority voters by focusing on the white male vote in the South. Well, guess what happened in 1992, folks, Bubba went back home to the Democratic Party and voted for Bill Clinton.


----------



## Jeremy

Modbert said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nixon was an idiot. And the RNC has apologized.   ...better late than never. But hey, it worked for Byrd so why not the RNC right?.
> RNC Chief to Say It Was 'Wrong' to Exploit Racial Conflict for Votes - washingtonpost.com
> 
> July 14, 2005
> 
> 
> 
> Ken Mehlman, the Republican National Committee chairman, this morning will tell the NAACP national convention in Milwaukee that it was "wrong."
> 
> "By the '70s and into the '80s and '90s, the Democratic Party solidified its gains in the African American community, and we Republicans did not effectively reach out," Mehlman says in his prepared text. "Some Republicans gave up on winning the African American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization. I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you* we were wrong*."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wat. It wasn't just Nixon, and Nixon wasn't even the first.
Click to expand...


That's right. *ALL* Republicans have been racist since the beginning of time. And *ALL* Democrats have been the champions of racial equality since the beginning of this country. 
I forgot.


----------



## Modbert

Jeremy said:


> That's right. *ALL* Republicans have been racist since the beginning of time. And *ALL* Democrats have been the champions of racial equality since the beginning of this country.
> I forgot.



Wrong. Now you're being dishonest about my statements. Republicans since the 60's have used the Southern Strategy. It has worked in some cases, failed in others for them.


----------



## Samson

Modbert said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right. *ALL* Republicans have been racist since the beginning of time. And *ALL* Democrats have been the champions of racial equality since the beginning of this country.
> I forgot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. Now you're being dishonest about my statements. Republicans since the 60's have used the Southern Strategy. It has worked in some cases, failed in others for them.
Click to expand...


Well, you're quote was somewhat disingenuous, perhaps not purposefully so: post# 185 is half interpretation, and half Steele's quote. Here is what Steele said:



> &#8220;We have lost sight of the historic, integral link between the party and African-Americans,&#8221; Steele said. &#8220;This party was co-founded by blacks, among them Frederick Douglass. The Republican Party had a hand in forming the NAACP, and yet we have mistreated that relationship. People don&#8217;t walk away from parties. Their parties walk away from them.
> 
> &#8220;For the last 40-plus years we had a &#8216;Southern Strategy&#8217; that alienated many minority voters by focusing on the white male vote in the South. Well, guess what happened in 1992, folks, &#8216;Bubba&#8217; went back home to the Democratic Party and voted for Bill Clinton.&#8221;



The "Southern Strategy" wasn't so much Against Black Voters. It simply ignored them, and was designed to appeal more to voters who valued strict law enforcement, strict constitutional interpretations, and less government.....Steele is saying these are values that more white male voters held than black voters. It seems his intent is to say that if Republicans want to appeal to more black voters, then they need to soften (abandon?) these ideals.

This is why the Republicans suck.


----------



## Jeremy

The only point I wanted to make was that using absolutes, in regards to racism and politics, is intellectually lazy and/or dishonest. Are *all* democrats roll models for racial equality, no, are *all* conservatives racist, no. 
Some here, not necessarily you Modbert, play in those kinds of absolutes. The same kind of absolutes that share a gene or two with racists themselves.


----------



## Samson

Jeremy said:


> The only point I wanted to make was that using absolutes, in regards to racism and politics, is intellectually lazy and/or dishonest. Are *all* democrats roll models for racial equality, no, are *all* conservatives racist, no.
> Some here, not necessarily you Modbert, play in those kinds of absolutes. The same kind of absolutes that share a gene or two with racists themselves.




Honkey.


----------



## Jeremy

Samson said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only point I wanted to make was that using absolutes, in regards to racism and politics, is intellectually lazy and/or dishonest. Are *all* democrats roll models for racial equality, no, are *all* conservatives racist, no.
> Some here, not necessarily you Modbert, play in those kinds of absolutes. The same kind of absolutes that share a gene or two with racists themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honkey.
Click to expand...


cracka'


----------



## Yukon.

Reagan was a terrible President, a sick old man who couldnt remember his name. Pathetic how Conservatives worshipped a coward like he was - refused to serve in WWII but Bush Junior dodged the draft too.


----------



## Jeremy

Does someone smell rotting maple syrup?


----------



## Queen

Big Fitz said:


> Is this going to be the next strategy since running against W won't work again?



Why not? Republicans are worshipping Reagan as their idol. 

The truth has to come from somewhere. It's up to us Democrats, as usual, to tell it.


----------



## Big Fitz

Queen said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this going to be the next strategy since running against W won't work again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? Republicans are worshipping Reagan as their idol.
> 
> The truth has to come from somewhere. It's up to us Democrats, as usual, to tell it.
Click to expand...

ROFL... yeah... truth... very cute.  That's funny.  "truth". uhhhh huh.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Queen said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this going to be the next strategy since running against W won't work again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? Republicans are worshipping Reagan as their idol.
> 
> The truth has to come from somewhere. It's up to us Democrats, as usual, to tell it.
Click to expand...


Then it's a bit of a problem that Democrats wouldn't recognize the truth if it crawled up their pants legs and bit them on the left ass cheek, isn't it?


----------



## Big Fitz

Cecilie1200 said:


> Queen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this going to be the next strategy since running against W won't work again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? Republicans are worshipping Reagan as their idol.
> 
> The truth has to come from somewhere. It's up to us Democrats, as usual, to tell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then it's a bit of a problem that Democrats wouldn't recognize the truth if it crawled up their pants legs and bit them on the left ass cheek, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Sure they would.  It's that nasty thing that crawled up their pant leg and bit em in the ass.  They'd chase it to the ends of the earth to hunt it down and kill it.


----------



## Douger

The reason that crackpot, astrology worshiping piece of shit sided with the "evangelicals" is because it's the only way to get the dupes to follow you.The Bush crowd followed that lead too.
They're all Satanists.......brainwashed elites.
Reagan was sElected. Not elected.They all are.


----------



## Madeline

Can we please get back on track?  (And BTW, Jeremy is correct...both sides of the aisle have been venial.)

When choosing a candidate in 2012, it is time for the GOP to reject the Palins, Gingriches etc. and chose a person with brains, vision and guts.  We do NOT need any more pandering to the stupid in this country.

So, does anyone have a Republican governor they like?


----------



## Toro

Madeline said:


> Can we please get back on track?  (And BTW, Jeremy is correct...both sides of the aisle have been venial.)
> 
> When choosing a candidate in 2012, it is time for the GOP to reject the Palins, Gingriches etc. and chose a person with brains, vision and guts.  We do NOT need any more pandering to the stupid in this country.
> 
> So, does anyone have a Republican governor they like?



Romney will look pretty good in 2012, given that the economy will probably still be pretty bad.


----------



## Madeline

I don't know much about Romney.  Why do you like him, my pinko Canadian friend?


----------



## Toro

Madeline said:


> I don't know much about Romney.  Why do you like him, my pinko Canadian friend?



Well, I don't really.  I did before he tried to resell himself as a social conservative, conveniently changing his "beliefs" to pander to evangelicals when he was running for the nomination.

But he looks the part.  With a stalled economy, turning to someone who ran a large business will look attractive.

And the Democrats will be too incompetent to exploit him.  Romney ran Bain Capital, a large private equity fund.  Private equity makes their money by taking costs out of companies, i.e. firing people, and leveraging up their balance sheets, i.e. issuing more debt.  Given that the problems in this economy are too much unemployment and too much debt, a clever political strategist should be able to make both a weakness for Romney, not a strength.  But since their are no clever Democrat political strategists, Romney will look pretty good.


----------



## Madeline

No "clever Democratic strategists"?  You mean none the dun look like gollum?






Someday I'm gonna use my Google-Fu and find out something about Canadian politics and ridicule YOU, Toto.....


----------



## Article 15

Jeremy said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *1964 civil rights act vote tally*
> Senate: 7719
> 
> Democrats: 4717 (73%-27%)
> Republicans: 302 (*94%-6%*)
> 
> 
> House: 33385
> 
> Democrats: 22161 (78%-22%)
> Republicans: 11224 (*82%-18%*)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello there! The Southern Strategy would like a word with you when you have a moment!
> 
> Oddly enough, seems like you just accidentally forgot to include that in your little timeline.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The point I'm making is that racism is "party blind". No matter how much people on the left like to scream about their moral superiority on the issue.
Click to expand...


The party breakdown of the votes doesn't tell the story ... it's the north/south breakdown that does.

This says all you need to know about who was for it and who was against it.  Notice something glaring?

The original House version:

    * Southern Democrats: 787   (7%93%)
    * Southern Republicans: 010   (0%100%)

    * Northern Democrats: 145-9   (94%6%)
    * Northern Republicans: 138-24   (85%15%)

The Senate version:

    * Southern Democrats: 120   (5%95%)
    * Southern Republicans: 01   (0%100%)
    * Northern Democrats: 45-1   (98%2%)
    * Northern Republicans: 27-5   (84%16%)


----------



## CrusaderFrank

FDR and Dems Southern Strategy was to see how black males would react from untreated syphilis allowing them to pass it to their wives and children.


----------



## Madeline

That was a horrendous experiment, Frank.


----------



## Douger

Wait a couple of years and watch what happens to the brainwashed, glassy eyed, defenders of FreeDumb.
How about Agent Orange ?
How about being exposed to a mushroom cloud while crouching in a ditch with farm animals.
How about getting fed small doses of LSD while on a navy ship ?

Just think. These assholes are protecting THEM.Not you.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Madeline said:


> That was a horrendous experiment, Frank.



Absolutely! 

And it was owned and operated by FDR and the Dems


----------



## Madeline

Okay, so we can agree the next Republican candidate for president should condemn unethical medical experiments on humans.

Next?


----------



## Article 15

Visitors found this page by searching for these keywords:

"noam chomsky"


----------



## Madeline

chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website

I am lazy, 15.  WTF Noam Chomsky?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Madeline said:


> Can we please get back on track?  (And BTW, Jeremy is correct...both sides of the aisle have been venial.)
> 
> When choosing a candidate in 2012, it is time for the GOP to reject the Palins, Gingriches etc. and chose a person with brains, vision and guts.  We do NOT need any more pandering to the stupid in this country.
> 
> So, does anyone have a Republican governor they like?



I agree.  It's long past time the GOP stop pandering to the stupid . . . so no more nominating "moderates" who will look good to the left.  Why would we be trying to please THOSE putzes?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Madeline said:


> Okay, so we can agree the next Republican candidate for president should condemn unethical medical experiments on humans.
> 
> Next?



I'm amazed at how readily Progressives accept both Soviet Barbarism and FDR's Tuskegee Experiments.

It never ceases to amaze me and that's just watching how Progressives have responded since I introduced Tuskegee about 2 weeks ago. It's really not a big deal to any of you.


----------



## Article 15

Madeline said:


> chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website
> 
> I am lazy, 15.  WTF Noam Chomsky?



It's what it says at the bottom of the page.

I find it funny but I'm strangely unsurprised that someone found a USMB thread titled "Reagan was a shitty President" while searching for Noam Chomsky.


----------



## Toro

Madeline said:


> Okay, so we can agree the next Republican candidate for president should condemn unethical medical experiments on humans.
> 
> Next?



Hey, let's not get hasty now.  Don't want to rule out all our options.


----------



## Madeline

Cecilie1200 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we please get back on track?  (And BTW, Jeremy is correct...both sides of the aisle have been venial.)
> 
> When choosing a candidate in 2012, it is time for the GOP to reject the Palins, Gingriches etc. and chose a person with brains, vision and guts.  We do NOT need any more pandering to the stupid in this country.
> 
> So, does anyone have a Republican governor they like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  It's long past time the GOP stop pandering to the stupid . . . so no more nominating "moderates" who will look good to the left.  Why would we be trying to please THOSE putzes?
Click to expand...


I could get behind this, Cecilie, if the "radical" was a man or woman prepared to go through the Directory Of Federal Agencies with a flamethrower.


----------



## Madeline

CrusaderFrank said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so we can agree the next Republican candidate for president should condemn unethical medical experiments on humans.
> 
> Next?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm amazed at how readily Progressives accept both Soviet Barbarism and FDR's Tuskegee Experiments.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me and that's just watching how Progressives have responded since I introduced Tuskegee about 2 weeks ago. It's really not a big deal to any of you.
Click to expand...


It's a big deal, Frank.  But I have known about since like 1979.  Kinda hard to start jumping up and down now.

It was vile, and should never have happened.  Hopefully, it never will again.


----------



## Madeline

Toro said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so we can agree the next Republican candidate for president should condemn unethical medical experiments on humans.
> 
> Next?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, let's not get hasty now.  Don't want to rule out all our options.
Click to expand...


Working for the FDA, are ya?


----------



## zzzz

Cecilie1200 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we please get back on track?  (And BTW, Jeremy is correct...both sides of the aisle have been venial.)
> 
> When choosing a candidate in 2012, it is time for the GOP to reject the Palins, Gingriches etc. and chose a person with brains, vision and guts.  We do NOT need any more pandering to the stupid in this country.
> 
> So, does anyone have a Republican governor they like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  It's long past time the GOP stop pandering to the stupid . . . so no more nominating "moderates" who will look good to the left.  Why would we be trying to please THOSE putzes?
Click to expand...


There are rumblings in Indiana of Governor Mitch Daniels running for President.


----------



## Madeline

Do you like him, zzzz?

BTW, anybody think Gov. Brewer (R - AZ) suitable?


----------



## zzzz

Madeline said:


> Do you like him, zzzz?
> 
> BTW, anybody think Gov. Brewer (R - AZ) suitable?



He served as an advisor to Reagan and was Bush's director of the OMB for 3 years at the start of the century. So he has Washington experience. Here in Indiana he has kept the state in good financial condition in contrast to the other states and he focuses on jobs. But he is a firm believer in privatization. Whether he could excite the republican base or not is what counts. With Palin's rock star status any other nominee would have to have something really good to get past the primaries. 

Gov. Brewer could not win Florida, Califormia or Texas because of the illegal legislation and without those states it is no contest. She will forever be tarred with that. Plus she is in a big flap about falsely claiming her father died fighting the Nazi's.


----------



## Madeline

How could anyone seeking public office be such a dope as to lie about their military background?  

_*Sighs*_

Would have been cool to back a chick for president.


----------



## Big Fitz

For one, not a single person who has previously run for president is really suitable... save Ron Paul, but he's already said 'no'.  And even then he has some issues, some of which stem from his supporters acting nuttier than the Libertarians and Greens.

As for other possible candidates... >grits teeth< I only know of two former governors that have had interest in it that may be on the consideration list.  Tim Pawlenty R-MN and Tommy Thompson (R-WI).  Both have significant issues too but both are outsiders.  I didn't know Brewer was interested and she possibly could be good, but till the whole Immigration Imbroglio, I was under the impression she was fairly RINOish.  And Palin... as much as I may like her, she's squandered her chance I think.  She would make a better head of the GOP at this point.

at least that's my current assessment.  Not good unless there's a effort to pull thumbs out of asses and purge the progressives from in the party.  Too bad they're all leadership now.


----------



## aztecdune

I will be honest; I'm far from being an expert on economics and I started kindergarten the year before Reagan took office. I did however read an article on marketwatch last week that speaks volumes on the subject of the Republicans influence on our current economy. I can't post links yet, apparantly, but doing a google search for "marketwatch Reagan insider economy" will hopefully yeild results. The article doesn't spare Democrats for their involvement in our current economic situation, either. I think it's reasonably fair. 

I think that Reagan, like almost every other President, did some good as well as some ill. I don't like him being deified though.


----------



## Father Time

Cecilie1200 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's all certainly your opinion, and as such, means and proves fuck-all.  But thank you for sharing it with us totally *unsolicited and unwanted. * Believe it or not, your opinion does not equal objective reality.
Click to expand...


Now cessy this may come as a shock but people don't need your permission to post their opinions on these boards, so saying it was unsolicited means fuck all.


----------



## Father Time

He used astrology to make decisions? Why not just ask Jon Edward to contact the dead founders while you're at it? I wonder if anyone here defended him for that?


----------



## Zona

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.



The trickle down thing is still being tried.  They justify tax breaks for the wealthy with this crap.

Here is a good measure of ol Ronnie.  HANNITY thinks he was great.  Nuff said.


----------



## Zona

Jeremy said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan gave us massive debt and deregulation that later turned into the savings and loan debacle.
> 
> He sold arms for hostages.
> 
> He increased racial tention.
> 
> He made children go hungry.
> 
> He decreased the ranks of the middle class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That asshole ate kittens for breakfast and raped grandmothers too!!
Click to expand...


Death panels....dont forget the death panels!


----------



## Father Time

"8. There is now a call for prayer in schools. The Republican adminstration has been lobbying to give this deserved religious freedom."

Prayer isn't banned in schools, what is banned is school led prayer, because you can't have public schools endorsing religion.


----------



## Yukon.

Reagan was a foolish clown and proof positive that even an idiot like G Bush Junior could be President. I despised him.


----------



## Father Time

CrusaderFrank said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Progressives need to lie about everything. They lie about the Greatness of FDR and not surprisingly, they lie about truly great Presidents like Reagan and Harding.
> 
> "Trickle down economics" is a derisive phrase describing letting the private sector get back to work. The Private sector is the main engine of prosperity in this nation and FDR's New Deal and Obama's Stimulus highlight the utter, total failure of Big Gubbamint trying to "Create jobs"
> 
> "He expanded the national debt" is a phase used by ignoramuses who think Reagan was a dictator or Monarch and not a US President.  At no time in his Presidency did the Republicans ever control Congress. Reagan proposed eliminating the Dept of Education and the Democrats told him "FUCK YOU AND YOUR SPENDING CUTS!!"
> 
> The other "points" are just too stupid to address and I won't waste the electrons in the effort.
Click to expand...


Why not just come out and say 'I can't address the other points'

Unless you want to defend using the pseudoscience bullshit that is Astrology to craft public policy. I'm all ears.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Father Time said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Progressives need to lie about everything. They lie about the Greatness of FDR and not surprisingly, they lie about truly great Presidents like Reagan and Harding.
> 
> "Trickle down economics" is a derisive phrase describing letting the private sector get back to work. The Private sector is the main engine of prosperity in this nation and FDR's New Deal and Obama's Stimulus highlight the utter, total failure of Big Gubbamint trying to "Create jobs"
> 
> "He expanded the national debt" is a phase used by ignoramuses who think Reagan was a dictator or Monarch and not a US President.  At no time in his Presidency did the Republicans ever control Congress. Reagan proposed eliminating the Dept of Education and the Democrats told him "FUCK YOU AND YOUR SPENDING CUTS!!"
> 
> The other "points" are just too stupid to address and I won't waste the electrons in the effort.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why not just come out and say 'I can't address the other points'
> 
> Unless you want to defend using the pseudoscience bullshit that is Astrology to craft public policy. I'm all ears.
Click to expand...


Like I said, the other "points" are just too fucking stupid to address, unless of course you want to claim that the collapse of the USSR was in the stars and that's why Gorby suddenly decided to dismantle his empire all on his own


----------



## Father Time

CrusaderFrank said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Progressives need to lie about everything. They lie about the Greatness of FDR and not surprisingly, they lie about truly great Presidents like Reagan and Harding.
> 
> "Trickle down economics" is a derisive phrase describing letting the private sector get back to work. The Private sector is the main engine of prosperity in this nation and FDR's New Deal and Obama's Stimulus highlight the utter, total failure of Big Gubbamint trying to "Create jobs"
> 
> "He expanded the national debt" is a phase used by ignoramuses who think Reagan was a dictator or Monarch and not a US President.  At no time in his Presidency did the Republicans ever control Congress. Reagan proposed eliminating the Dept of Education and the Democrats told him "FUCK YOU AND YOUR SPENDING CUTS!!"
> 
> The other "points" are just too stupid to address and I won't waste the electrons in the effort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just come out and say 'I can't address the other points'
> 
> Unless you want to defend using the pseudoscience bullshit that is Astrology to craft public policy. I'm all ears.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said, the other "points" are just too fucking stupid to address, unless of course you want to claim that the collapse of the USSR was in the stars and that's why Gorby suddenly decided to dismantle his empire all on his own
Click to expand...


Another deflection


----------



## Woyzeck

CrusaderFrank said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Progressives need to lie about everything. They lie about the Greatness of FDR and not surprisingly, they lie about truly great Presidents like Reagan and Harding.
> 
> "Trickle down economics" is a derisive phrase describing letting the private sector get back to work. The Private sector is the main engine of prosperity in this nation and FDR's New Deal and Obama's Stimulus highlight the utter, total failure of Big Gubbamint trying to "Create jobs"
> 
> "He expanded the national debt" is a phase used by ignoramuses who think Reagan was a dictator or Monarch and not a US President.  At no time in his Presidency did the Republicans ever control Congress. Reagan proposed eliminating the Dept of Education and the Democrats told him "FUCK YOU AND YOUR SPENDING CUTS!!"
> 
> The other "points" are just too stupid to address and I won't waste the electrons in the effort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just come out and say 'I can't address the other points'
> 
> Unless you want to defend using the pseudoscience bullshit that is Astrology to craft public policy. I'm all ears.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said, the other "points" are just too fucking stupid to address, unless of course you want to claim that the collapse of the USSR was in the stars and that's why Gorby suddenly decided to dismantle his empire all on his own
Click to expand...


Did Reagan really have a such a personal hand in the undoing of the USSR outside of outspending them in an arms race to make them collapse that much sooner?


----------



## Big Fitz

Yukon. said:


> Reagan was a foolish clown and proof positive that even an idiot like G Bush Junior could be President. I despised him.


Thppt... you're canadian.  Like your opinion on Reagan matters.


----------



## Father Time

Big Fitz said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan was a foolish clown and proof positive that even an idiot like G Bush Junior could be President. I despised him.
> 
> 
> 
> Thppt... you're canadian.  Like your opinion on Reagan matters.
Click to expand...


Reagan's dead so I don't think any of our opinions of him matter that much.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Woyzeck said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just come out and say 'I can't address the other points'
> 
> Unless you want to defend using the pseudoscience bullshit that is Astrology to craft public policy. I'm all ears.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, the other "points" are just too fucking stupid to address, unless of course you want to claim that the collapse of the USSR was in the stars and that's why Gorby suddenly decided to dismantle his empire all on his own
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did Reagan really have a such a personal hand in the undoing of the USSR outside of outspending them in an arms race to make them collapse that much sooner?
Click to expand...


If spending money was the only criteria Obama would have all of our enemies begging for mercy.

Reagan challenged the USSR in every theater: in Europe he threatened to introduce Pershing and Minutemen missiles along withe the Carter era stealth bombers, A-10, Abrams tanks and other equipment. In Central America he made his his mission to oust Communists and their puppets. In Afghanistan, and so on and so on.  Pick a theater and Reagan was challenging Soviet expansion


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's all certainly your *opinion*, and as such, means and proves fuck-all.  But thank you for sharing it with us totally *unsolicited* and *unwanted*.  Believe it or not, your *opinion does not equal objective reality*.
Click to expand...



Of course it's her *opinion*, just like all of your posts are _your_ opinion.  That's how this works.

What thread is ever *solicited*?  Are you aware of how ignorantly pretentious you appear?

If you don't *want* it, get the fuck out of the thread.  It's really just that simple.

NO ONE'S *opinion equals objective reality*.  My, oh my.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's all certainly your *opinion*, and as such, means and proves fuck-all.  But thank you for sharing it with us totally *unsolicited* and *unwanted*.  Believe it or not, your *opinion does not equal objective reality*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it's her *opinion*, just like all of your posts are _your_ opinion.  That's how this works.
> 
> What thread is ever *solicited*?  Are you aware of how ignorantly pretentious you appear?
> 
> If you don't *want* it, get the fuck out of the thread.  It's really just that simple.
> 
> NO ONE'S *opinion equals objective reality*.  My, oh my.
Click to expand...


No, dumb shit, all of my posts are NOT just my opinion.  See, I'm not a liberal, wandering around spouting my opinions as though they're gospel carved in stone by the finger of God.  I also post these things called "facts", accompanied by other things called "references", also known as "substantiation" or "evidence".

Try it sometime, fool.


----------



## Tom Clancy

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.


----------



## Synthaholic

boedicca said:


> Reagan cut taxes effective Jan 1, 1983 and dramatically decreased inflation via the Volcker Fed tightening.
> 
> Any theory that you have that doesn't involve these facts is just leftwing hyperbole.



Then let's hear from a staunch Conservative, Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming:



> Reagan Raised Taxes At Least 7 Times, Including the Biggest Corporate Tax Hike Ever
> 
> Transcript:
> 
> 
> SEN. SIMPSON: Now if we&#8217;re going to work through the myths and misconceptions and the distortions, and as one president said, &#8220;plain damn lies.&#8221; I forget what president &#8212; I think it was Harry [Truman]. Uh, I&#8217;m going to say one.
> 
> Some groups seem to bring up Ronald Reagan. We&#8217;ll hear from those this afternoon &#8212; with a deserved reference, which is very appropriate. Uh. In the words memorialized in the vice presidential debate, I knew Ronald Reagan. They are not Ronald Reagan &#8220;knowers.&#8221;
> 
> In his diary books, I&#8217;m proudly mentioned many times. He was a dear friend, and a total realist as to politics.
> 
> I didn&#8217;t come to this commission to raise taxes. That&#8217;s the myth. But I&#8217;ll tell ya, they&#8217;ve got to be on the table and they are on the table. So I&#8217;ll get my share of crap on that one.
> 
> *But let&#8217;s just disengage ourselves from the myth that Ronald Reagan never raised taxes. He did. And here are four big ones. So I hope this will clear the air for some of the groups today.
> 
> In 1982, the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, that rolled back about a third of his &#8216;81 tax cuts, raised corporate tax rates, and to a lesser extent income tax rates. Raised taxes by almost 1 percent of GDP, which at that time was the largest percentage in peacetime increase ever.
> 
> [The] 1982 gas tax increase. [The] 1983 Greenspan commission &#8212; we know so well; [fellow commission member Alice Rivlin] remembers &#8212; we all &#8230; raised payroll taxes for lower and middle income households to higher than they were before Reagan&#8217;s &#8216;81 tax cuts. Then there was the 1984 deficit reduction tax.
> 
> Those are the big four. Then there was the Railroad Retirement Revenue Act, Consolidated Omnibus Budget of &#8216;85&#8230; &#8216;85&#8230;&#8217;87 Continuing Resolution, Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of &#8216;87, that was $8.6 billion
> 
> So there were a lot of them. *Just thought I&#8217;d throw that in.
> 
> 
> YouTube - Simpson Takes Down The Reagan Myth


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> *Reagan referred to God -- and he meant it. *I think it must have burned Progressive ears to hear him speak so affectionately that he was the servant of a higher power that wasn't Mo' n Bigga Gubbamint



Yeah, that's why he never went to church.  As president, as governor, or as an actor.


----------



## Big Fitz

Father Time said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan was a foolish clown and proof positive that even an idiot like G Bush Junior could be President. I despised him.
> 
> 
> 
> Thppt... you're canadian.  Like your opinion on Reagan matters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Reagan's dead so I don't think any of our opinions of him matter that much.
Click to expand...

Not to him at least.  Makes his critics look petty though.


----------



## Father Time

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's all certainly your *opinion*, and as such, means and proves fuck-all.  But thank you for sharing it with us totally *unsolicited* and *unwanted*.  Believe it or not, your *opinion does not equal objective reality*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it's her *opinion*, just like all of your posts are _your_ opinion.  That's how this works.
> 
> What thread is ever *solicited*?  Are you aware of how ignorantly pretentious you appear?
> 
> If you don't *want* it, get the fuck out of the thread.  It's really just that simple.
> 
> NO ONE'S *opinion equals objective reality*.  My, oh my.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, dumb shit, all of my posts are NOT just my opinion.  See, I'm not a liberal, wandering around spouting my opinions as though they're gospel carved in stone by the finger of God.
Click to expand...


Oh please. You make a lot of stupid statements like 'only liberals do X or believe Y' (like in this very post) and then pretend they're fact without any attempt to back it up.


----------



## Douger

RayGun is the messiah of the toothless and illiterate.
Here's another of his heroic "acts"
Reagan: Taliban &#039;moral equivalent of America&#039;s founding fathers&#039; | Citizens for Legitimate Government


----------



## Yukon.

Ronald Reagan was living a life of mortal sin. he was divorced and was living with a woman in sin. That means he is burning in the eternal fires of hell.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Reagan referred to God -- and he meant it. *I think it must have burned Progressive ears to hear him speak so affectionately that he was the servant of a higher power that wasn't Mo' n Bigga Gubbamint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's why he never went to church.  As president, as governor, or as an actor.
Click to expand...


Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Reagan referred to God -- and he meant it. *I think it must have burned Progressive ears to hear him speak so affectionately that he was the servant of a higher power that wasn't Mo' n Bigga Gubbamint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's why he never went to church.  As president, as governor, or as an actor.
Click to expand...


God isn't confined to any one church or space.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Reagan referred to God -- and he meant it. *I think it must have burned Progressive ears to hear him speak so affectionately that he was the servant of a higher power that wasn't Mo' n Bigga Gubbamint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's why he never went to church.  As president, as governor, or as an actor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.
Click to expand...

OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.


----------



## Father Time

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's why he never went to church.  As president, as governor, or as an actor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
Click to expand...


Or even better show us where Synth screams you don't have to go to church (this may comes as a shock but he doesn't represent all of the left).


----------



## Synthaholic

Reagan's policy of 'cut and run' in Beirut, Lebanon made America weaker by showing our enemies that if they attack us, we will retreat.  Saddam observed this and figured "If they aren't even going to go to war to defend themselves, they sure aren't going to go to war over a bunch of Kurds - I think I'll gas them".


----------



## Synthaholic

Father Time said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or even better show us where Synth screams you don't have to go to church (this may comes as a shock but he doesn't represent all of the left).
Click to expand...

She won't show either one - she's a phony.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> Reagan's policy of 'cut and run' in Beirut, Lebanon made America weaker by showing our enemies that if they attack us, we will retreat.  Saddam observed this and figured "If they aren't even going to go to war to defend themselves, they sure aren't going to go to war over a bunch of Kurds - I think I'll gas them".



Yes, that's why Gorby decided that the USSR should self destruct.


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan's policy of 'cut and run' in Beirut, Lebanon made America weaker by showing our enemies that if they attack us, we will retreat.  Saddam observed this and figured "If they aren't even going to go to war to defend themselves, they sure aren't going to go to war over a bunch of Kurds - I think I'll gas them".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's why Gorby decided that the USSR should self destruct.
Click to expand...

Take your meds and then come back and explain what your post has to do with Reagan's policy of 'cut and run'.


----------



## Father Time

Synthaholic said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or even better show us where Synth screams you don't have to go to church (this may comes as a shock but he doesn't represent all of the left).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She won't show either one - she's a phony.
Click to expand...


I love how she pretends you represent everyone on the left.

Presumably if you were an atheist she would use that as proof that "see the left all are a bunch of liars when they say you can be a Christian leftist"

Anything to claim all liberals are bad I guess.


----------



## Synthaholic

Father Time said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or even better show us where Synth screams you don't have to go to church (this may comes as a shock but he doesn't represent all of the left).
> 
> 
> 
> She won't show either one - she's a phony.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I love how she pretends you represent everyone on the left.
> 
> Presumably if you were an atheist she would use that as proof that "see the left all are a bunch of liars when they say you can be a Christian leftist"
> 
> Anything to claim all liberals are bad I guess.
Click to expand...

She's a cartoon character, so that's how I treat her.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's why he never went to church.  As president, as governor, or as an actor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
Click to expand...


From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:

"Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family." 

From the end of the same speech:

"If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."

Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan's policy of 'cut and run' in Beirut, Lebanon made America weaker by showing our enemies that if they attack us, we will retreat.  Saddam observed this and figured "If they aren't even going to go to war to defend themselves, they sure aren't going to go to war over a bunch of Kurds - I think I'll gas them".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's why Gorby decided that the USSR should self destruct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Take your meds and then come back and explain what your post has to do with Reagan's policy of 'cut and run'.
Click to expand...


Take YOUR meds and show us where leaving Beirut was REAGAN'S idea.


----------



## Truthmatters

Note Frank thinks Gorby distroyed the USSR.


What an idiot he is


----------



## Big Fitz

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:
> 
> "Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family."
> 
> From the end of the same speech:
> 
> "If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."
> 
> Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.
Click to expand...

well there's a case of 'shut the hell up'.


----------



## Big Fitz

Truthmatters said:


> Note Frank thinks Gorby distroyed the USSR.
> 
> 
> What an idiot he is


Huh... did it exist after 1992?  I'm sure the Russians would be surprised to learn that.  Same for the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Georgia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Albania, Turkey and a few other nations to boot.


----------



## Madeline

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:
> 
> "Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family."
> 
> From the end of the same speech:
> 
> "If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."
> 
> Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.
Click to expand...


Yes, okay...for public consumption, Reagan was a christian.  But that is kinda sorta the problem, Cecilie.  Rather than appealing to problem-solving, analytical and smart, he pandered to knee-jerk, divisive and stupid.  (No, I am not calling christians stupid.  I am calling people who wish for a theocracy stupid.)  It's a mistake we cannot afford to make again.


----------



## Madeline

I have to say, guys, I'm surprised at the number of people willing to attribute the fall of the USSR to Reagan.  Don't the internal politics of the Soviet Union count for more?  Wouldn't it have fallen when it did regardless of who was the US President?


----------



## Jeremy

Madeline said:


> I have to say, guys, I'm surprised at the number of people willing to attribute the fall of the USSR to Reagan.  Don't the internal politics of the Soviet Union count for more?  Wouldn't it have fallen when it did regardless of who was the US President?



It was definately on the edge and ready to fall over the cliff. But you can't say that Reagan tried to pull it back from the brink. He gave it a nice little nudge to finish the job.


----------



## Zona

Ol Ronnie sucked as a president.  He was not the worse in history but he certainly is should not be held so high by the righty's.  They need to look specifically into what he did.


----------



## Woyzeck

CrusaderFrank said:


> Woyzeck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, the other "points" are just too fucking stupid to address, unless of course you want to claim that the collapse of the USSR was in the stars and that's why Gorby suddenly decided to dismantle his empire all on his own
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Reagan really have a such a personal hand in the undoing of the USSR outside of outspending them in an arms race to make them collapse that much sooner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If spending money was the only criteria Obama would have all of our enemies begging for mercy.
> 
> Reagan challenged the USSR in every theater: in Europe he threatened to introduce Pershing and Minutemen missiles along withe the Carter era stealth bombers, A-10, Abrams tanks and other equipment. In Central America he made his his mission to oust Communists and their puppets. In Afghanistan, and so on and so on.  Pick a theater and Reagan was challenging Soviet expansion
Click to expand...


So threatening missles and military equipement and continueing to try ousting communists from 3rd world countries (which is hardly new strategy) toppled the USSR? If he didn't do any of these things, the USSR would still be standing today?


----------



## Madeline

That is a good question.  What did Reagan do that had not been tried before, that you feel accounts for the fall of the USSR?

You people remind me of Nixon apologists, who mew on "Well, at least he reopened trade with China."

Gheesh.


----------



## Toro

Madeline said:


> I have to say, guys, I'm surprised at the number of people willing to attribute the fall of the USSR to Reagan.  Don't the internal politics of the Soviet Union count for more?  Wouldn't it have fallen when it did regardless of who was the US President?



Reagan gets some credit, but of course, the USSR didn't actually fall under Reagan.  It fell under Bush.

Also, the internal logic of communism meant that eventually, the USSR would collapse.  It probably would have collapsed sooner had it not been for the rise of oil prices in the 1970s.  Oil was a major source of hard currency for the USSR.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Madeline said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:
> 
> "Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family."
> 
> From the end of the same speech:
> 
> "If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."
> 
> Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, okay...for public consumption, Reagan was a christian.  But that is kinda sorta the problem, Cecilie.  Rather than appealing to problem-solving, analytical and smart, he pandered to knee-jerk, divisive and stupid.  (No, I am not calling christians stupid.  I am calling people who wish for a theocracy stupid.)  It's a mistake we cannot afford to make again.
Click to expand...


I disagree on all points.  One, I don't think he was pandering at all.  I think he genuinely believed the things he said and did.  In addition, I don't think he appealed to knee-jerk, divisive, and stupid, nor do I automatically assume that seeing the world from his religious viewpoint appeals to people who wish for a theocracy.  And I don't believe that Christianity and "problem-solving, analytical and smart" are mutually exclusive.

Frankly, I find your entire post and the supercilious attitude it reveals toward Christianity to be extremely offensive.  If anyone is "knee-jerk", I think it's you.


----------



## Madeline

I know you do, and I'll admit I have written things a christian might be offended by in other threads.  But try and suspend judgment for a moment and hear me:  I want the 2012 incoming administration to solve problems.  I do not want our next Republican president to be swept along a wave of anti-Muslim jingoism, without any substantive ideas on how to address the very real issues facing this country.

The worship of Reagan usually arises from a feeling that there is a "real America" that is somehow overlooked or disenfranchised, and that these hard-working, christian, tax paying, law abiding people are less than smart and should be spoken to by "a regular guy" whom they can trust.

It is time for a statesman, not a ringleader.


----------



## Jeremy

Madeline said:


> It is time for a statesman, not a ringleader.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Madeline said:


> I have to say, guys, I'm surprised at the number of people willing to attribute the fall of the USSR to Reagan.  Don't the internal politics of the Soviet Union count for more?  Wouldn't it have fallen when it did regardless of who was the US President?



Not according to many of the Soviets themselves.  Former KGB General Oleg Kalugin, for example, or Russian economist Boris Pinsker.

While it is true that, aside from their military strength, the former Soviet Union was a shambling third-world economy at best, that in no way means the country would have collapsed on its own.  Lots of third-world countries continue to shamble on indefinitely in the same shape.  It was engaging in the arms race with that economy against a United States that suddenly had the will to stand up to them, because of Ronald Reagan, that broke them.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Madeline said:


> That is a good question.  What did Reagan do that had not been tried before, that you feel accounts for the fall of the USSR?
> 
> You people remind me of Nixon apologists, who mew on "Well, at least he reopened trade with China."
> 
> Gheesh.



Standing up to them is what hadn't been tried before.  Do you remember the Cold War?  I do.  I remember that before Reagan, the US government had a policy of appeasement toward the Soviet Union.  They certainly evidenced no clue that the Soviet Union was "on its last legs", as the left so likes to pretend was common knowledge back then.  It was "any treaty is better than no treaty", and never mind the the USSR ignored and violated them whenever it felt like.


----------



## Madeline

This is revisionist fantasy, Cecilie.  Remember Korea?  Vietnam?  Cuba?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Madeline said:


> This is revisionist fantasy, Cecilie.  Remember Korea?  Vietnam?  Cuba?



Were you planning on making a point, or was I expected to read your mind?


----------



## Madeline

My point is, the US never had a policy of appeasement towards the USSR.  Ever.


----------



## Big Fitz

Reagan won the cold war by exploiting the biggest weakness of communism:  economics.

It is a PISS-POOR economic system because it ignores scarcity, market forces, human nature and just plain ole entropy.

He took our run down military, and started an arms race the soviets could never keep up with.  Introduced SDI which he knew EVEN IF IT NEVER SUCCEEDED, the concept would so scare the Soviets into trying they would waste their entire budget down a technological rathole if they could get an upper hand on it. Their economic system could not generate the resources and capital needed to keep up because it would destabilize their nation in every other aspect causing them internal strife as the needs of the people could not be met.  The system could not stay together, and did not.  

Gorbechov tried to stop it from happening by adopting some capitalist ideas, but it was too little too late and the small relief valve, so to speak became a raging torrent that the soviets could not deal with, and the suppressed desires of the Russian market quickly took it's toll, destroying the old system through populist reform.

That is how Reagan won the cold war.  And if you look carefully, that is what is being done to this nation with social spending.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how the left SCREAMS that attending a church and affiliating with an organized religion IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, DAMN IT!!!! . . . until it's a conservative in question.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:
> 
> "Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family."
> 
> From the end of the same speech:
> 
> "If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."
> 
> Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.
Click to expand...


Frankly, it's clear that Reagan himself did not write that.  That has the flowery imagery reminiscent of "shining city on the hill".  Sounds like Peggy Noonan.  But a minor point, since he would obviously approved the speech prior to giving it.

But the major point is that he was talking to a special interest group:  The National Religious Broadcasters Convention!  While running for re-election, in 1984!  I'm sure that when he talked to steel workers in Pittsburgh, he was just as sincere.  In fact, you can read his address to the nation and see just how *passionate* Ronald Reagan was about steel!

So wouldn't a normal person agree that he might be laying on a little extra Jesus when talking to TV evengelists?  That's their stock and trade!  He better come with his A-game, rhetorically speaking.


Let's compare that with a speech that President Obama (peace be upon him) made before a Methodist group:


OBAMA:  I let Jesus Christ into my life. I learned that my sins could be redeemed and if I placed my trust in Jesus, that he could set me on a path to eternal life. When I submitted myself to his will and I dedicated myself to discovering his truth and carrying out his works, it was that newfound faith that fortified my commitment to the work I was doing in the community. Because it taught me that I could sit in church and pray all I want but I won't be fulfilling the Lord's will unless I am doing the lord's work.​

Sorry, but his sounds more from the heart and more honestly personal than Reagan's pretty words.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's why Gorby decided that the USSR should self destruct.
> 
> 
> 
> Take your meds and then come back and explain what your post has to do with Reagan's policy of 'cut and run'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Take YOUR meds and show us where leaving Beirut was REAGAN'S idea.
Click to expand...


----------



## Synthaholic

Jeremy said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say, guys, I'm surprised at the number of people willing to attribute the fall of the USSR to Reagan.  Don't the internal politics of the Soviet Union count for more?  Wouldn't it have fallen when it did regardless of who was the US President?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was definately on the edge and ready to fall over the cliff. But you can't say that Reagan tried to pull it back from the brink. He gave it a nice little nudge to finish the job.
Click to expand...

I agree.  He upped the spending, and the Soviets couldn't keep up.  But it gave us massive deficits.

Pope John Paul II was also very instrumental in the fall of the USSR.


----------



## Synthaholic

Zona said:


> Ol Ronnie sucked as a president.  He was not the worse in history but he certainly is should not be held so high by the righty's.  They need to look specifically into what he did.


There has been a concerted effort on the part of the Conservative Big Media to rehabilitate Reagan's image.

If only those pesky facts didn't keep getting in the way.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:
> 
> "Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family."
> 
> From the end of the same speech:
> 
> "If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."
> 
> Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, okay...for public consumption, Reagan was a christian.  But that is kinda sorta the problem, Cecilie.  Rather than appealing to problem-solving, analytical and smart, he pandered to knee-jerk, divisive and stupid.  (No, I am not calling christians stupid.  I am calling people who wish for a theocracy stupid.)  It's a mistake we cannot afford to make again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I disagree *on all points.  One, *I don't think* he was pandering at all.  *I think *he genuinely believed the things he said and did.  In addition, *I don't think* he appealed to knee-jerk, divisive, and stupid, *nor do I automatically assume *that seeing the world from his religious viewpoint appeals to people who wish for a theocracy.  And *I don't believe *that Christianity and "problem-solving, analytical and smart" are mutually exclusive.
> 
> Frankly,* I find *your entire post and the supercilious attitude it reveals toward Christianity to be extremely offensive.  If anyone is "knee-jerk",* I think* it's you.
Click to expand...


This must be one of your "I post facts, not opinions" posts.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good question.  What did Reagan do that had not been tried before, that you feel accounts for the fall of the USSR?
> 
> You people remind me of Nixon apologists, who mew on "Well, at least he reopened trade with China."
> 
> Gheesh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standing up to them is what hadn't been tried before.  Do you remember the Cold War?  I do.  I remember that before Reagan, the US government had a policy of appeasement toward the Soviet Union.  They certainly evidenced no clue that the Soviet Union was "on its last legs", as the left so likes to pretend was common knowledge back then.  It was "any treaty is better than no treaty", and never mind the the USSR ignored and violated them whenever it felt like.
Click to expand...

Not 'saber-rattling' does not equal 'appeasement'.


----------



## Father Time

Madeline said:


> I know you do, and I'll admit I have written things a christian might be offended by in other threads.  But try and suspend judgment for a moment and hear me:  I want the 2012 incoming administration to solve problems.  I do not want our next Republican president to be swept along a wave of anti-Muslim jingoism, without any substantive ideas on how to address the very real issues facing this country.



Not sure what that has to do with Reagan.

Unless you think Reagan used anti-Muslim jingoism.,


----------



## Madeline

No.  But I fear the next Republican candidate for president will, unless the party's membership strikes a blow for problem-solving over sloganeering.


----------



## Big Fitz

> You people remind me of Nixon apologists, who mew on "Well, at least he reopened trade with China."



I include that among his cardinal sins, along with the EPA and Watergate.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

The American Left hates Reagan because he beat the crap out of the USSR so badly he left them no choice but to complete their takeover of the Democrat Party


----------



## Woyzeck

Yeah, you know what Reagan did? Reagan tore off his shirt, put a knife into his mouth, dove into the Atlantic, marched across Europe to Moscow where he engaged in a kung-fu fight with Gorbachev. After winning, he punched the corpse of Lenin so hard, every communist became a proud capitalist, and every Soviet nuke dismantled itself. All the Soviets were convinced by his majestic words, and them and the Middle East totally saw us as the best people ever to walk the earth. Then he came home and creamed himself on the flag, and cried bald eagle tears


----------



## Kat

Good grief how vulgar can you get. And you get thanked on top of it?


----------



## Father Time

Kat said:


> Good grief how vulgar can you get.



Well since you asked ...

[youtube]tw10xa_xtNg[/youtube]


----------



## Kat

Father Time said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief how vulgar can you get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well since you asked ...
> 
> [youtube]tw10xa_xtNg[/youtube]
Click to expand...




I won't even look at that guy.


----------



## Father Time

Kat said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief how vulgar can you get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well since you asked ...
> 
> [youtube]tw10xa_xtNg[/youtube]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I won't even look at that guy.
Click to expand...


You're missing a good joke. Or are you turned off by jokes that involve fist fucking a dog?


----------



## Kat

Father Time said:


> Kat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well since you asked ...
> 
> [youtube]tw10xa_xtNg[/youtube]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I won't even look at that guy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're missing a good joke. Or are you turned off by jokes that involve fist fucking a dog?
Click to expand...


Newp..not my cuppa tea.....just like child porn is not.


----------



## Synthaholic

Has Cecilie1200 run away?


----------



## Woyzeck

Kat said:


> Good grief how vulgar can you get. And you get thanked on top of it?



Some people are really repulsed by the thought of a man in his late sixties with his shirt off, I guess.


----------



## Big Fitz

Kat said:


> Good grief how vulgar can you get. And you get thanked on top of it?


Good Will Nothing's found his intellectual void niche.  Don't be surprised he'd be popular with the haters.


----------



## Big Fitz

Synthaholic said:


> Has Cecilie1200 run away?


Probably doctors orders to remove herself from the source of advanced stupidity.  Anaphylaxis is dangerous.  Good thing I have my epipen.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Kat said:


> Good grief how vulgar can you get. And you get thanked on top of it?



Well, consider the vulgarian who did the thanking.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Has Cecilie1200 run away?



It's called "having a life", dumbass.  You might consider trying it sometime.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has Cecilie1200 run away?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's called "having a life", dumbass.  You might consider trying it sometime.
Click to expand...

OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.


----------



## Charles_Main

Madeline said:


> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.



I love it when all you fucking KIDS who grew up in the Great America That Reagan's polices helped create. With out a Soviet union to worry about. Trash a President you never saw. Mommy and daddy were changing your diapers still when he left office.

You do not know SHIT other than what Liberals tell you to think about him.


----------



## Nosmo King

Charles_Main said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love it when all you fucking KIDS who grew up in the Great America That Reagan's polices helped create. With out a Soviet union to worry about. Trash a President you never saw. Mommy and daddy were changing your diapers still when he left office.
> 
> You do not know SHIT other than what Liberals tell you to think about him.
Click to expand...

But I was a young man fresh out of college when Bonzo was first elected.  I saw the manufacturing base here dry up like a weed in August, watched him run deficit spending to its unfortunate conclusion, watched as he regularly screwed working families while he coddled the rich and how he "forgot" how he sold arms to Iran while funding a bloody revolt in Nicaragua.

Bedtime for Bonzo.


----------



## Big Fitz

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has Cecilie1200 run away?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's called "having a life", dumbass.  You might consider trying it sometime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.
Click to expand...

Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.


----------



## Synthaholic

Big Fitz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's called "having a life", dumbass.  You might consider trying it sometime.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.
Click to expand...

Did she ask you to run interference for her?


----------



## Big Fitz

Synthaholic said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.
> 
> 
> 
> Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did she ask you to run interference for her?
Click to expand...

Nope, you came too close to my kiosk.  Now that I have your attention, are you happy with your cell plan?  Don't you feel you deserve better service and features than you currently have?  Will you sign a 10 year contract?


----------



## Kat

Big Fitz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did she ask you to run interference for her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, you came too close to my kiosk.  Now that I have your attention, are you happy with your cell plan?  Don't you feel you deserve better service and features than you currently have?  Will you sign a 10 year contract?
Click to expand...


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has Cecilie1200 run away?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's called "having a life", dumbass.  You might consider trying it sometime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.
Click to expand...


Would you like to narrow it down a little and give me some sort of clue as to what you said that you feel deserves a rebuttal?  I haven't seen anything from you that I thought merited a response, otherwise there'd be one, and I have no intention of going back through the thread to try to guess what it was you thought was "brilliant".  At least give me a post number to work with.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Big Fitz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's called "having a life", dumbass.  You might consider trying it sometime.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.
Click to expand...


True.  It actually means I'M the domme.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's called "having a life", dumbass.  You might consider trying it sometime.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would you like to narrow it down a little and give me some sort of clue as to what you said that you feel deserves a rebuttal?  I haven't seen anything from you that I thought merited a response, otherwise there'd be one, and I have no intention of going back through the thread to try to guess what it was you thought was "brilliant".  At least give me a post number to work with.
Click to expand...


You could start with #278.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you're back now.  Address my rebuttals, please.
> 
> 
> 
> Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> True.  It actually means I'M the domme.
Click to expand...

The movie 'The Notorious Bettie Page' starring the very under-valued Gretchen Mol is extremely good - seek it out.


----------



## Queen

Charles_Main said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love it when all you fucking KIDS who grew up in the Great America That Reagan's polices helped create. With out a Soviet union to worry about. Trash a President you never saw. Mommy and daddy were changing your diapers still when he left office.
> 
> You do not know SHIT other than what Liberals tell you to think about him.
Click to expand...


He TRIPLED the national debt. 

Nuff said. 

Government - Historical Debt Outstanding  Annual


----------



## Father Time

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:
> 
> "Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family."
> 
> From the end of the same speech:
> 
> "If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."
> 
> Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frankly, it's clear that Reagan himself did not write that.  That has the flowery imagery reminiscent of "shining city on the hill".  Sounds like Peggy Noonan.  But a minor point, since he would obviously approved the speech prior to giving it.
> 
> But the major point is that he was talking to a special interest group:  The National Religious Broadcasters Convention!  While running for re-election, in 1984!  I'm sure that when he talked to steel workers in Pittsburgh, he was just as sincere.  In fact, you can read his address to the nation and see just how *passionate* Ronald Reagan was about steel!
> 
> So wouldn't a normal person agree that he might be laying on a little extra Jesus when talking to TV evengelists?  That's their stock and trade!  He better come with his A-game, rhetorically speaking.
> 
> 
> Let's compare that with a speech that President Obama (peace be upon him) made before a Methodist group:
> 
> 
> OBAMA:  I let Jesus Christ into my life. I learned that my sins could be redeemed and if I placed my trust in Jesus, that he could set me on a path to eternal life. When I submitted myself to his will and I dedicated myself to discovering his truth and carrying out his works, it was that newfound faith that fortified my commitment to the work I was doing in the community. Because it taught me that I could sit in church and pray all I want but I won't be fulfilling the Lord's will unless I am doing the lord's work.​
> 
> Sorry, but his sounds more from the heart and more honestly personal than Reagan's pretty words.
Click to expand...


They both sound pretty phoney to me.


----------



## Father Time

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True.  It actually means I'M the domme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The movie 'The Notorious Bettie Page' starring the very under-valued Gretchen Mol is extremely good - seek it out.
Click to expand...


I know that's supposed to be a whip or whatever but am I the only one who jumps to






a fiber wire?


----------



## Big Fitz

Yep.  Only one.

She is holding a crop or maybe a quirt.

I'm more partial to a 6 foot bull or 8 foot blacksnake.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Miss "I only post facts" - show us the fact that Reagan was a Christian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From his speech to the National Religious Broadcasters convention after announcing his second-term candidacy:
> 
> "Under this roof, some 4,000 of us are kindred spirits united by one burning belief: God is our Father; we are His children; together, brothers and sisters, we are one family."
> 
> From the end of the same speech:
> 
> "If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way."
> 
> Now, you might say, "Lots of politicians mouth religious faith to win points", and you'd be right.  But there's a big difference between saying, "God bless America" to pander to voters and talking about God and Jesus the way Reagan did.  Argue whether or not he was a GOOD Christian, if you must.  But I think it's clear that he thought of himself as a Christian, and only God has the ability to argue that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frankly, it's clear that Reagan himself did not write that.  That has the flowery imagery reminiscent of "shining city on the hill".  Sounds like Peggy Noonan.  But a minor point, since he would obviously approved the speech prior to giving it.
> 
> But the major point is that he was talking to a special interest group:  The National Religious Broadcasters Convention!  While running for re-election, in 1984!  I'm sure that when he talked to steel workers in Pittsburgh, he was just as sincere.  In fact, you can read his address to the nation and see just how *passionate* Ronald Reagan was about steel!
> 
> So wouldn't a normal person agree that he might be laying on a little extra Jesus when talking to TV evengelists?  That's their stock and trade!  He better come with his A-game, rhetorically speaking.
> 
> 
> Let's compare that with a speech that President Obama (peace be upon him) made before a Methodist group:
> 
> 
> OBAMA:  I let Jesus Christ into my life. I learned that my sins could be redeemed and if I placed my trust in Jesus, that he could set me on a path to eternal life. When I submitted myself to his will and I dedicated myself to discovering his truth and carrying out his works, it was that newfound faith that fortified my commitment to the work I was doing in the community. Because it taught me that I could sit in church and pray all I want but I won't be fulfilling the Lord's will unless I am doing the lord's work.​
> 
> Sorry, but his sounds more from the heart and more honestly personal than Reagan's pretty words.
Click to expand...


Leaving alone your "totally unbiased and unprejudiced"  tendency to believe everything Obama says is carved-in-stone, sworn-on-religious-text-of-your-choice gospel truth and everything Reagan said was merely pandering, and your odd notions that 1) OBAMA'S speeches aren't ALSO written by paid speechwriters, and 2) that the President of the United States just goes out and reads whatever words are put in front of him with no input as to what they are, when did I ever register an opinion on whether or not Obama is a Christian?  Unlike some people, I'm not looking to go to Hell for the sin of hubris, thanks very much, so I would never DREAM of trying to judge another person's soul.  Actions, sure; character, you betcha;  soul?  Not a chance.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just cause her avatar is Bettie Page doesn't mean you can practice being a dom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True.  It actually means I'M the domme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The movie 'The Notorious Bettie Page' starring the very under-valued Gretchen Mol is extremely good - seek it out.
Click to expand...


I'd be amazed if most of my friends don't have copies already.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Queen said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fed up with all this revisionist history in which Reagan was the best president since George Washington.  It's all bullshit folks, and here's why:
> 
> *  "Trickle down economics" -- the basis for the infamous Reagan tax cuts -- was utter bullshit and did not work.  At all.
> 
> *  He expanded the national debt in unprecedented amounts.  Yes, so have others since, but his was a Great Leap Forward.
> 
> *  He and his wife relied on astrologists to help them make decisions about the country.  WTF Nancy was even involved, no one knows...but to use a horoscope is inexcusable.
> 
> And my personal favorite:
> 
> *  By embracing the Moral Majority, Reagan opened an era of religious lunacy in American politics, especially in the Republican Party.  We are still paying for this.  Pols in America have to pander to the Very Stupid to get elected...and that is almost entirely Reagan's fault.
> 
> Knock it off with the Great Communicator horseshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love it when all you fucking KIDS who grew up in the Great America That Reagan's polices helped create. With out a Soviet union to worry about. Trash a President you never saw. Mommy and daddy were changing your diapers still when he left office.
> 
> You do not know SHIT other than what Liberals tell you to think about him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He TRIPLED the national debt.
> 
> Nuff said.
> 
> Government - Historical Debt Outstanding  Annual
Click to expand...


Mind showing me where in the Constitution the PRESIDENT is given control of the national purse strings before you go declaring "nuff said", tweeko?  Because I could swear it's CONGRESS that controls spending in this country, and I distinctly remember Reagan's Congress proudly declaring every budget suggestion he sent them DOA.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Big Fitz said:


> Yep.  Only one.
> 
> She is holding a crop or maybe a quirt.
> 
> I'm more partial to a 6 foot bull or 8 foot blacksnake.



I don't usually go for the full whips, because it's rare to have that sort of space to swing in where I play.  Besides, I'd have to like them a lot more than I do to put in the kind of practice time that makes them relatively safe to use.  If I'm going with a single tail, I prefer a viper tongue.  Otherwise, floggers are nice, ubiquitous, and come in great variety.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Leaving alone your "totally unbiased and unprejudiced"  tendency to believe everything Obama says is carved-in-stone, sworn-on-religious-text-of-your-choice gospel truth and everything Reagan said was merely pandering




Leaving alone your "totally unbiased and unprejudiced"  tendency to believe everything *Reagan* says is carved-in-stone, sworn-on-religious-text-of-your-choice gospel truth and everything *Obama* said was merely pandering...


I've heard it all before, wingnut.  You're not impressive.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving alone your "totally unbiased and unprejudiced"  tendency to believe everything Obama says is carved-in-stone, sworn-on-religious-text-of-your-choice gospel truth and everything Reagan said was merely pandering
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving alone your "totally unbiased and unprejudiced"  tendency to believe everything *Reagan* says is carved-in-stone, sworn-on-religious-text-of-your-choice gospel truth and everything *Obama* said was merely pandering...
> 
> 
> I've heard it all before, wingnut.  You're not impressive.
Click to expand...


And you think you're leaving people gaping in awe and wonder at your desperate grasping at straws?  Idiot, please.

There was very little point to your tangential meanderings about whether or not Reagan was a Christian, anyway, but your questioning has nevertheless been answered.  Any more of these lame attempts at "Yes, but . . ." just for the sake of never admitting that you were wrong are just a waste of my fucking time.  Get back on the topic and see if you can embarrass yourself a little less there.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving alone your "totally unbiased and unprejudiced"  tendency to believe everything Obama says is carved-in-stone, sworn-on-religious-text-of-your-choice gospel truth and everything Reagan said was merely pandering
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving alone your "totally unbiased and unprejudiced"  tendency to believe everything *Reagan* says is carved-in-stone, sworn-on-religious-text-of-your-choice gospel truth and everything *Obama* said was merely pandering...
> 
> 
> I've heard it all before, wingnut.  You're not impressive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you think you're leaving people gaping in awe and wonder at your desperate grasping at straws?  Idiot, please.
> 
> There was very little point to your tangential meanderings about whether or not Reagan was a Christian, anyway, *but your questioning has nevertheless been answered. * Any more of these lame attempts at "Yes, but . . ." just for the sake of never admitting that you were wrong are just a waste of my fucking time.  Get back on the topic and see if you can embarrass yourself a little less there.
Click to expand...


You haven't answered shit.  You presented your opinion as fact.  You believe that since Reagan gave a Christ-y speech to TV evangelists, it means he was religious.

You must be new to politics.


----------

