# To Save the Schools, We Must Change the Social Contract



## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession. 

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and _*your child is injured*_, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated. 

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

_1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
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4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍♀️. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'..._
_
Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is._


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> 
> To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.
> 
> ...




that is complete and utter bullshit,,,

children havent changed,,,its the socialist teachers that have changed,,,

they are more focused on indoctrination instead of teaching the 3 R's


what needs to happen is end the teachers union and get back to students first and teachers last,,,


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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And what is your experience in the schools?


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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other than being a victim of its socialist agenda???


and besides its not about me its about the failure of schools since the change to indoctrination instead of teaching,,,its easy to see,


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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K well I"m going to give you one more chance. Just one more.

If you would have clicked to the article, you would have seen that the teacher quit and cited an example of children flipping over tables in Kindergarten out of anger. Please give an example how this is a result of either:

1. Socialist teaching agenda or

2. Teacher's unions

Show your work


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

Teachers Unions are liberal organizations.   They work diligently to indoctrinate students on the "Evils" of capitalism and 'Right wing Fascism"
I know this because I know many teachers.   Teachers who will not tow the hard left line are moved , released and or replaced.  The low quality and ignorance of people entrusted to teach our children is appalling.   I am speaking of the Blue state, inner city schools mostly.

That's why Charter Schools and Home schooling have increased exponentially.

The teacher who left was probably pressured to do so for some time since she (or he) was unwilling to tow the hard Left line.


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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It's a combination of both, parents not parenting, some teachers are PC, teachers hands are tied in some cases...but there are some great teachers out there also. I feel sorry for them, they're overwhelmed and getting it from both sides


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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thats a parenting problem and none of the teachers business,,,kick the kid out of class and get back to work,,,


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Teachers Unions are liberal organizations.   They work diligently to indoctrinate students on the "Evils" of capitalism and 'Right wing Fascism"
> I know this because I know many teachers.   Teachers who will not tow the hard left line are moved , released and or replaced.  The low quality and ignorance of people entrusted to teach our children is appalling.
> 
> That's why Charter Schools and Home schooling have increased exponentially.
> ...



Well I am a conservative Christian public school teacher. 25 years in, in the top 10% of teachers in my huge district, won many awards. Never been moved.

So that shoots down that little Talking Point doesn't it?


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

There are VERY few "great teachers" in Democrat dominated Hard left Blue urban schools


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Teachers Unions are liberal organizations.   They work diligently to indoctrinate students on the "Evils" of capitalism and 'Right wing Fascism"
> I know this because I know many teachers.   Teachers who will not tow the hard left line are moved , released and or replaced.  The low quality and ignorance of people entrusted to teach our children is appalling.
> 
> That's why Charter Schools and Home schooling have increased exponentially.
> ...



Our children attend private schools....I've talked to teachers that left public education to teach at our's schools. They tell me it's night and day


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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You're dismissed, goodbye


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Well I am a conservative Christian public school teacher. 25 years in, in the top 10% of teachers in my huge district, won many awards. Never been moved.
> So that shoots down that little Talking Point doesn't it?



Where exactly?
And lest we forget, it is common for Leftists people to be deceptive about their true political and religious propensities today.

How many RINOS are in Congress?  How many retired when Trump was elected?


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
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no it doesnt,,,


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> There are VERY few "great teachers" in Democrat dominated Hard left Blue urban schools



I don't trust what you say. You just told me I don't exist. So I don't trust the rest of what you say either.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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sorry but facts matter,,,


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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> > Well I am a conservative Christian public school teacher. 25 years in, in the top 10% of teachers in my huge district, won many awards. Never been moved.
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In the Midwest. But why should that matter? You told me I don't exist.

Honestly when my fellow conservatives go on about the public schools you all sound like Orange Man Bad. Mindless drones


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
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> > Teachers Unions are liberal organizations.   They work diligently to indoctrinate students on the "Evils" of capitalism and 'Right wing Fascism"
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Sure. All the parents are motivated, which makes a huge difference. Schools can also expel troubled students. We have a difficult time doing that.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> In the Midwest. But why should that matter? You told me I don't exist.
> Honestly when my fellow conservatives go on about the public schools you all sound like Orange Man Bad. Mindless drones



BINGO !
That was easy.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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no he didnt,,,he said there are very few


for a teacher you are pretty fucking stupid,,,


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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Our's doesn't, the rules are laid out in the handbook, break them and you're gone. But actually there are not a lot of discipline problems at the schools. Probably because of student's backgrounds


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


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That's no bingo chump. I voted Trump in 2016 and will vote again in 2020. Search my name and see where I stand. 

I'm saying you sound like drones....like Leftists sound WHEN THEY TALK "ORANGE MAN BAD"


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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youre a teacher not a parent,,,do your job and let them do theirs,,,


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## 22lcidw (Jul 9, 2019)

A lot of things have changed over the decades. The Progs kowtow to the teachers unions. You commies need to end this with your revolution. Take your pick....AOC or Pelosi and the swamp way.


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## bodecea (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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How long have you been teaching?


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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Right, here's how idiotic this post is. So when a kindergarten child turns over a table in the room, teacher is supposed to ignore it and keep on teaching--"Not my job"

Exhibit A: why most people who dog teachers would not last even half a day, let alone a week in my profession


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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Teachers and parents need to work together...if that happened more there would be less problems


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


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25 years


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## bodecea (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Teachers Unions are liberal organizations.   They work diligently to indoctrinate students on the "Evils" of capitalism and 'Right wing Fascism"
> I know this because I know many teachers.   Teachers who will not tow the hard left line are moved , released and or replaced.  The low quality and ignorance of people entrusted to teach our children is appalling.   I am speaking of the Blue state, inner city schools mostly.
> 
> That's why Charter Schools and Home schooling have increased exponentially.
> ...


Here you are saying that teachers are replaced...and yet we keep hearing that it's impossible to get rid of (bad) teachers.   Which is it?


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


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You see in this thread why that is almost impossible anymore.

In our modern culture, no one trusts anyone.

Not doctors.

Not cops.

Not the military, even.

And CERTAINLY not teachers. The social contract is busted. It's so sad. There's no level of trust and zero respect. Keep watching this thread and you will see.

I would even settle for "trust, but verify". From so many we don't even get that.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> That's no bingo chump. I voted Trump in 2016 and will vote again in 2020. Search my name and see where I stand.
> I'm saying you sound like drones....like Leftists sound WHEN THEY TALK "ORANGE MAN BAD"



As always, when fakers fail, the first thing they do is start slinging the insults.   NEVER fails.  it clearly shows their lack of character.
Your argument "seems" to be that ALL teachers in public schools are good and upstanding.
That is laughable at best.  But sad at the same time that anyone would think that.

If you in fact voted Trump, I will at least give you that.  Most of the liberal teachers I know were staunch Hillary supporters.   And ALL are very ignorant outside of the narrow field of their own textbook schooling.  Unfortunate.

We do indeed need to "fix" the Public schools system.


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## bodecea (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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That can happen in private schools...not public schools.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


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54yrs


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## bodecea (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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What happens when the parents DON'T do their job?


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## bodecea (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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I know you teach, I was asking Mr "Expert on how bad teachers are".


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


> Here you are saying that teachers are replaced...and yet we keep hearing that it's impossible to get rid of (bad) teachers.   Which is it?



Another hard core Lefty "conveniently" omitting what was ACTUALLY said.   Go back and read it again.

HERE is what I said......


BasicHumanUnit said:


> I know this because I know many teachers.   Teachers who will not tow the hard left line are *moved* , released and or replaced.



That, or you are not literate.  which is it?

The other option is that they do not get hired in the first place.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


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I don't care if you think I'm faking. I'm not. That's first.

Second, do not put arguments in my mouth. You said there are "no great teachers". Because you said that does NOT mean that *I* said "ALL" teachers in public schools are good and upstanding. 

You have a very narrow stereotypical view of the public schools. You've been spoon fed that by talking points. I will agree with you about the unions and that is why I'm a "scab"--I don't belong. Other than that, do better.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


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Oh sorry I thought my name was up on the top there, so thought that was for me.

He's not a teacher. No way


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## bodecea (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


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How do you plan on fixing the Public school system?   I personally am for school choice...always have been.  Public schools should be able to choose what students they accept and keep....just like private schools get to.  Also, they should be able to REQUIRE parents to volunteer a certain amount at the school per month...like many Private schools do.


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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Just from reading your comments I can tell you're a good teacher...I wouldn't have any issues with you teaching ours. 

Our oldest have a history/political science teacher, love that guy, he told me our oldest girls challenge him and he welcomes that. That's a teacher. None of that it's my way or the highway garbage so prevalent today


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


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I'm for school choice too, even including vouchers. However if private schools take voucher money than they should be beholden to take the same student population that public schools take. They can enforce an exit plan, but they should be open to a diverse population.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> I don't care if you think I'm faking. I'm not. That's first.
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> Second, do not put arguments in my mouth. You said there are "no great teachers". Because you said that does NOT mean that *I* said "ALL" teachers in public schools are good and upstanding.
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> You have a very narrow stereotypical view of the public schools. You've been spoon fed that by talking points. I will agree with you about the unions and that is why I'm a "scab"--I don't belong. Other than that, do better.



First of all I'm not putting anything in your mouth.  That's your perception. 

What do you know about the public school system in big cities?  Specifically Democrat stronghold big cities?


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


> How do you plan on fixing the Public school system?   I personally am for school choice...always have been.  Public schools should be able to choose what students they accept and keep....just like private schools get to.  Also, they should be able to REQUIRE parents to volunteer a certain amount at the school per month...like many Private schools do.



I'm not paid to research the cure for the public school system, so I certainly can't answer that adequately.

But allowing schools to deny certain students acceptance might not be a good start.  That said, I do think schools should have the ability to remove disruptive pupils.

Private schools aren't federally funded so their options are greater.

If it's "required", it's by definition not "voluntary"


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


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in what way???

and is still isnt the teachers business, their job is to teac


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## Unkotare (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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> they are more focused on indoctrination instead of teaching the 3 R's
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When was the last time you set foot in a school?


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

Unkotare said:


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not sure what thats got to do with the subject,,,


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## Lysistrata (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Teachers Unions are liberal organizations.   They work diligently to indoctrinate students on the "Evils" of capitalism and 'Right wing Fascism"
> I know this because I know many teachers.   Teachers who will not tow the hard left line are moved , released and or replaced.  The low quality and ignorance of people entrusted to teach our children is appalling.   I am speaking of the Blue state, inner city schools mostly.
> 
> That's why Charter Schools and Home schooling have increased exponentially.
> ...



When was this new?  The 1950s? Look at the people I've seen on USMB and elsewhere, people in their 40s, 50s, 60s, acting like children, cursing, ranting, calling others vile names, who obviously were not properly taught by their (probably now-dead parents). This did not happen just now and it has absolutely nothing to do with any teachers' union. Do you think that trump and pence ever were disciplined by their parents? Oh, come on. How did trump and pence grow up to be the disrespectful "adults" they are? Bad parenting is the cause throughout the decades. Nothing new.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Teachers Unions are liberal organizations.   They work diligently to indoctrinate students on the "Evils" of capitalism and 'Right wing Fascism"
> I know this because I know many teachers.   Teachers who will not tow the hard left line are moved , released and or replaced.  The low quality and ignorance of people entrusted to teach our children is appalling.   I am speaking of the Blue state, inner city schools mostly.
> 
> That's why Charter Schools and Home schooling have increased exponentially.
> ...



Why should teachers "tow the line"?  What line needs to be towed?

The term is "toe the line".  Educate yourself before criticizing others!


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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Give us an example of this "indoctrination" that you claim dominates teaching.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 9, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


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So are their paychecks!  Many private school teachers are completely unqualified to train a dog, much less teach.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 9, 2019)

22lcidw said:


> A lot of things have changed over the decades. The Progs kowtow to the teachers unions. You commies need to end this with your revolution. Take your pick....AOC or Pelosi and the swamp way.



What do they do where there are no teacher's unions?


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 9, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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Yeah yeah yeah and many could teach you. The same holds true for public school teachers. Stop trying to pick fights, toad.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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we can start with the dragqueens and trannies being allowed to go into schools and push the LBGTQRST agenda as if they were normal,,,they are doing this in kindergarten,,,


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> 22lcidw said:
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is there such a place in this country outside the private schools???


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 9, 2019)

bodecea said:


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Most of the parents cannot volunteer at school because it would violate terms of their parole!


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 9, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


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No, that is not true.  Private school teachers, especially for elementary schools often have no post-secondary education at all!


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


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I would like to remind you that you came here all barrels blasting--like most conservatives on public education, you spewed your talking points, they sounded good to you, and you were done. (I say this as a conservative, btw.) NOW you want to back track and ask me about different schools in different parts of the nation.

As I have said so many times: a school in inner city is going to look different than a school in rural Nebraska, generally speaking. When anti-public school folks get on their rants they never take this into account--it's like somehow, that sweet kindergarten teacher down the pew every Sunday in Littletown, South Dakota becomes a raging Leftist lunatic on Monday morning when she invites in the drag queens. This is what makes sense in your head I guess, as you're spewing it. 

Do better. Think better. Type better stuff. Make better arguments.


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## initforme (Jul 9, 2019)

Those who cry about teachers should quit their jobs and go in the classroom in troubled schools and teach.  Show the country how it's done.  In sure the kids will just now down to them waiting to be taught.  In my 5 kids 12 years of public education I can't find one shred of so called empty talking point baseless indoctrination.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

initforme said:


> Those who cry about teachers should quit their jobs and go in the classroom in troubled schools and teach.  Show the country how it's done.  In sure the kids will just now down to them waiting to be taught.  In my 5 kids 12 years of public education I can't find one shred of so called empty talking point baseless indoctrination.



Thank you!

People read of some drag queens coming into to some Berkeley CA kindergarten or some teacher in Maryland made a third grader write a report on Michelle Obama and voila...."all teachers indoctrinate". 

True things:

1. The NEA IS a liberal organization, but that does not mean all of its members vote liberal

2. Some teachers DO "indoctrinate" but they are FAR from the majority, and yeah, I'm totally comfortable saying that

3. Conservatives are just as easy to manipulate through media as Leftists. And that is sad.


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## initforme (Jul 9, 2019)

My daughter is a  public school teacher.  I have asked her to come up with all the ways she indoctrinated her students.  She will get a laugh out of it though.  She does her job although many robots bastardize her because she has her Summers off, etc.  She laughs the comments like that right off because those are made by people who gobble up the empty rhetoric.  Sure there are bad teachers, just like every other profession.  But there are many many good ones who show up and do a great job despite low thought comments made by those who should be showing the nation how to do the job.  A few schools in big cities don't represent the nation as a whole.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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> > Those who cry about teachers should quit their jobs and go in the classroom in troubled schools and teach.  Show the country how it's done.  In sure the kids will just now down to them waiting to be taught.  In my 5 kids 12 years of public education I can't find one shred of so called empty talking point baseless indoctrination.
> ...




do you teach that dinosaurs lived millions of yrs ago???


and do you teach other aspects of evolution???


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Why should teachers "tow the line"?  What line needs to be towed?
> The term is "toe the line".  Educate yourself before criticizing others!



Speaking of a lack of education and misguided criticism.....oops!

There's this thing called 'Google".  Let me make it super simple just for you.....
Copy and paste this in.....

*TOW THE LINE
*(Any real Admiral worth his salt would know that)

Then Paste it into the Google Search bar.   If you can't find it let me know and I'll try to guide you.

Thanks for playing.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

initforme said:


> My daughter is a  public school teacher.  I have asked her to come up with all the ways she indoctrinated her students.  She will get a laugh out of it though.  She does her job although many robots bastardize her because she has her Summers off, etc.  She laughs the comments like that right off because those are made by people who gobble up the empty rhetoric.  Sure there are bad teachers, just like every other profession.  But there are many many good ones who show up and do a great job despite low thought comments made by those who should be showing the nation how to do the job.  A few schools in big cities don't represent the nation as a whole.



You just said ......

The Majority of students don't  represent our nation as a whole.

Really?  So what nation do all those millions of students in big city public schools represent?


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> I would like to remind you that you came here all barrels blasting--like most conservatives on public education, you spewed your talking points, they sounded good to you, and you were done. (I say this as a conservative, btw.) NOW you want to back track and ask me about different schools in different parts of the nation.
> 
> 
> As I have said so many times: a school in inner city is going to look different than a school in rural Nebraska, generally speaking. When anti-public school folks get on their rants they never take this into account--it's like somehow, that sweet kindergarten teacher down the pew every Sunday in Littletown, South Dakota becomes a raging Leftist lunatic on Monday morning when she invites in the drag queens. This is what makes sense in your head I guess, as you're spewing it.
> ...



From the onset, I pointed out your view may be very narrow.  That was one of my points.

You have all these cutesy stories....and you're good at patting yourself on the back I agre......but you're not saying anything substantial.

Example....

In your opening you mention an article which says children turn over tables because they've never been told "No".
Meaning what?
I've been in classrooms where students do worse than turn over tables not because they haven't been told no...but because they are angry or rebellious and have not been told anything. Often they do as their parents do.  Black inner city kids are often different than rural white kids.
It sounds to me you are clueless as to what goes on in inner city public schools and in your quaint little world, you see things through rose colored glasses.

In addition, you posted ONE story.....from ONE person.   One sail does not a clipper fly.  Meaning you don't have enough to support your cause.

For you to represent that things are a certain way with your only evidence being one article is self invalidating.

Do better. Think better. Type better stuff. Make better arguments. (can you take your own advice)?

Finally....she was a KINDERGARTEN teach for Christ sake!   If she couldn't handle them, what kind of "teacher" was she?   God forbid she ever sat in an inner city Harlem High School.


----------



## initforme (Jul 9, 2019)

Still waiting to find where all this indoctrination is happening.  It's like finding Sasquatch.  If you want to fix a school go in and show us how those kids will just bow to you for knowledge.  Well sit back and watch.  Be a part of the solution.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

initforme said:


> Still waiting to find where all this indoctrination is happening.  It's like finding Sasquatch.  If you want to fix a school go in and show us how those kids will just bow to you for knowledge.  Well sit back and watch.  Be a part of the solution.



Yeah, see that's another part of the problem.   Denial.  You won't see what you Do NOT WANT to see.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...



Well I don't teach science so.....


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)




----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


>



The first two are anecdotal. I've already covered this. The Dept of Ed can be a problem but as far as I know schools are not beholden to teach this curriculum. So it might well be anecdotal too, which proves my point.

At any rate we are way off track here. The topic of this thread is NOT "teachers indoctrinate".


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to remind you that you came here all barrels blasting--like most conservatives on public education, you spewed your talking points, they sounded good to you, and you were done. (I say this as a conservative, btw.) NOW you want to back track and ask me about different schools in different parts of the nation.
> ...



Thank you for making my point for me.

If students in suburban schools like mine are turning over tables--you are exactly right. Where kids are in worse situations, there is even worse. Exactly.

And yet you moronically go on and on about "indoctrination". Your thinking is a hot mess.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




thats not what I asked,,,,


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



I'm REALLY starting to see why the posters who are anti-public education are so anti here. I mean look. Here is a poster who's nailing me on teaching evolution. I just told him I DO NOT TEACH SCIENCE and he's telling me "that's not what I asked". NO, I do not teach evolution. Or creation. OR ANY SCIENCE

Just....wow

He also routinely uses commas for ellipses. Look up ellipses if you don't know what they are.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> I've already covered this. The Dept of Ed can be a problem



And your ONE article proves what exactly?

That's been covered too  

If you're truly a Conservative as you claim......
Explain in YOUR own words what "Changing the Social Contract" means.
I highly doubt you'll answer this in any meaningful way because it could be too revealing.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> I'm REALLY starting to see why the posters who are anti-public education are so anti here. I mean look. Here is a poster who's nailing me on teaching evolution. I just told him I DO NOT TEACH SCIENCE and he's telling me "that's not what I asked". NO, I do not teach evolution. Or creation. OR ANY SCIENCE
> 
> Just....wow
> 
> He also routinely uses commas for ellipses. Look up ellipses if you don't know what they are.



No need to start nit picking people.  That's not necessary.

So, you cannot tolerate people who question you or who have opposing points of view?
You getting angry?

Lots of ALL CAPS popping up in your posts Herr Fraulein

Conservatives are tolerant.  Now there's room for doubt.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > I've already covered this. The Dept of Ed can be a problem
> ...



Social Contract--Rights and Responsibilities is another way to put it. We are all about Rights these days but light on Responsibilities.

That's all I'm going to give you; you don't deserve any more of my time


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## initforme (Jul 9, 2019)

So evolution is out?  What should be taught instead?   
Dinosaurs didn't live millions of years ago?  Please tell us when they did live?

Still trying to find all that indoctrination in our little rural high school here but dog gone it it's just not showing up. Lmao


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...





just goes to show ,,,if all else fails attack the messenger,,,

sorry honey I am a product of public education,,,,

and back on topic, what do you mean by a change in the social contract???

we had one and it got changed when the feds took over the education system which resulted in a down turn of education in this country,,

the old one was about education and the new one is about indoctrination,,,

whats yours gonna be???


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

initforme said:


> So evolution is out?  What should be taught instead?
> Dinosaurs didn't live millions of years ago?  Please tell us when they did live?
> 
> Still trying to find all that indoctrination in our little rural high school here but dog gone it it's just not showing up. Lmao


how about provable facts...


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 9, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



Let's do a test and see how well you learn. If you were taught and refuse to learn that's not on your teachers, pal. That's on you.

These are ellipses

...

Three periods in a row. TECHNICALLY you are supposed to type them like this . . . with spaces in between, but only book publishers do this. So, three dots, no spaces is accepted. Like this ...

It means a pause, the thought is continuing, or I'm left hanging. 

You use COMMAS for ellipses, and I have seen you do this before. It's very peculiar. Like this.

"about indoctrination,,,"

So rather than talk about science, let's talk about your punctuation. Since we're so far afield anyway.


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## Darkwind (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> 
> To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.
> 
> ...


One possible avenue of exploration is a means by which undisciplined or troubled children are evaluated and weeded out from entering the main k - 12 system.

In many communities, we have head start programs, along with other programs that ostentatiously exist to help the children get a leg up on learning.

In each of these kinds of programs, the behavior of the child should be observed and evaluated and a determination made on allowing the child to enter the k - 12 system.

Clearly, in many cases (I don't know how many and the opinion I have is based on anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure we all have stories) we see children who are running wild over their parents or the parents simply don't care.  Some of that is due to PC, I"m sure.  The whole notion that corporal punishment is forbidden because it is somehow wrong.  Punishment often is a 'good talking too', or perhaps a timeout in the corner that is supposed to last for 20 minutes, but in reality, lasts 3 because the parent can't be bothered to listen to the crying or is too engrossed in their phone conversations.

We see them acting up in stores, parking lots, and in later years, running in gangs or vandalizing other people's property.  

All because they were never taught any respect or self-control

When a child is acting up in school, I place the blame on that fully on the parent.  When the child graduates high school unable to read and do rudimentary mathematics, or cannot even understand the basic structure of our society and our government, I blame that on teachers.

So, we need a way to sort the wheat from the chaff so that the wheat can become viable members of society.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




I moved on from that,,,

whats your plan for changing the social contract???


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## initforme (Jul 9, 2019)

Ok...what are the facts then?


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

initforme said:


> Ok...what are the facts then?




about what???


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 9, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Social Contract--Rights and Responsibilities is another way to put it. We are all about Rights these days but light on Responsibilities.
> That's all I'm going to give you; you don't deserve any more of my time



I see.  You honestly act much more like a liberal snowflake than a conservative.
And that was what I expected.   Nothing really.


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## initforme (Jul 9, 2019)

So no evolution....what instead?
So no dinosaurs millions of years ago....what instead?


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## Darkwind (Jul 9, 2019)

initforme said:


> So no evolution....what instead?
> So no dinosaurs millions of years ago....what instead?


I'm just curious about something.

Do you and it seems everyone else, think this is a discussion about what is taught in school as opposed to the topic of unruly or out-of-control children disrupting the teaching environment?

As I read the OP, this is NOT about teachers, not about Unions, not about curriculum.  IT is about allowing children with emotional and self-control problems into the school system to begin with and how it places an undue burden on teachers and the workplace.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 9, 2019)

initforme said:


> So no evolution....what instead?
> So no dinosaurs millions of years ago....what instead?


provable facts,,,
the problem with evolution is its taught as fact when its nothing more than a theory bordering on a religion,,,,


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 10, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Why should teachers "tow the line"?  What line needs to be towed?
> ...




Nice try, dumbass!  I did as you asked!

How to Use Toe the line Correctly – Grammarist

Now, apologize for your insolence and ignorance and then STFU!


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> ...



First, thank you for your response!

While you are largely on the right track, there are a couple of misconceptions here. Sadly there is no "weeding out" system in the K-12 public schools.

In the very most extreme cases---and I mean VERY extreme--students go to special schools that you might call "off site" if they have severe disabilities or their behavior is exceedingly extreme--basically juvenile detention extreme. Otherwise, they come to us. I think many years ago it was expected that children attain a certain level of "readiness": that they be able to skip, know some letters or some-such. But with the advent of disability laws, pretty much all that is out the window. If they live in district and meet the age cut off, they come to us. Period. (Even in diapers, a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. Yes. In diapers.)

Another misconception is that kids are even getting the "talking to" or the "time out". Sadly, many are not even getting THAT. As the Kinder teacher says in her post, some parents have forbidden her from telling their child "no". Some parents these days feel that publicly correcting their child is "humiliating" to the child. So believe me, if we had children who were being talked to or given time outs, we would be in much better shape. But we're not. In many cases there's no correction AT ALL.

This is what I mean about the Social Contract. We need to get back to the place as schools where we tell parents, "We WILL discipline your child if he/she needs it. The discipline will be intended to teach, not to harm. If you're not okay with that, please consider homeschooling."

I do not say this out of a place of unkindness, but in a place of desperation--so that our schools can operate as schools again. If not--I think we're done. It's all over but the inevitable "shouting".


----------



## Darkwind (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...


I can't stay as I am about to run out the door, but I wanted to give a quick reply.

My first response was directed at your concept of 'changing the social contract'.  

IF we started using these head start programs to weed out these children -- meaning that they would not be permitted into the K - 12 system -- that would be changing the contract, would it not?  Additionally to that, there should be imposed a set standard minimum behavior of a child before entering into the system.

I'm not exactly sure the extent of your concept of 'will discipline'.  I am fine with punishment by the schools, but exclude physical punishments as a remedy.  Frankly, I don't think anyone but a parent should have that right.  However, other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful.  I also agree that the parents either accept that, or they can't have their children in the system.


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> ...
> 
> IF we started using these head start programs to weed out these children -- meaning that they would not be permitted into the K - 12 system -- ....




Kind of hard to reconcile that with compulsory education, don't you think?


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...



Oh I agree about corporal punishment in the schools. I don't want any part of that, no thanks.

As for a "weeding out", I'm wondering where you think these children would go if they were not permitted into the K-12 system. Do you just mean to start kindergarten? We already have pre-K programs, but they are not mandatory, they are parents' choice. One problem might be that you would have all needy children in those classes, all together. BUT, it's certainly an option. It's changing the contract as you say.

Thanks for your thoughts!


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> ... other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful. .....




That's exactly what happens now.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > ... other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful. .....
> ...



I think that is site-based. I really understand what that teacher said when she said the schools have a "customer service" model. In some ways that's not a bad thing, but it's a balance. In too many places the balance is all on the side of families' RIGHTS and not at all on the side of their RESPONSIBILITIES.


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## JoeB131 (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> 
> To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.
> 
> ...



sounds like she totally sucks at her job, can't control even small children, and we are all better off she's pursuing something more to her skill level, like working at a WalMart.


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## JoeB131 (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Well I am a conservative Christian public school teacher. 25 years in, in the top 10% of teachers in my huge district, won many awards. Never been moved.
> 
> So that shoots down that little Talking Point doesn't it?



So essentially, you have involved parents who aren't working three jobs, and your little cult school can pick and choose what kids you want. Which means no poor kids, no minority kids, and no kids with emotional or learning disabilities.


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## sparky (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> And what is your experience in the schools?



I'm a parent & taxpayer

*I.E.*> _'customer'_

That trumps _anything _

thx

~S~


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

sparky said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > And what is your experience in the schools?
> ...



The people who work there are *also taxpayers*. My state tells me that when children turn over tables or hit, throw things, bite or etc, I cannot restrain them. I must stand there and take it. 

Let's just start there. Please name me another profession where this is the case.


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## JoeB131 (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> The people who work there are *also taxpayers*. My state tells me that when children turn over tables or hit, throw things, bite or etc, I cannot restrain them. I must stand there and take it.
> 
> Let's just start there. Please name me another profession where this is the case.



sounds like you can't control little kids... maybe you should consider doing something else for a living.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Well I am a conservative Christian public school teacher. 25 years in, in the top 10% of teachers in my huge district, won many awards. Never been moved.
> ...



I'm really glad for once that I clicked to read your post Joe. 

Guess you missed where I said I'm a Christian PUBLIC school teacher. Meaning I am a Christian, teaching in the PUBLIC schools 

This is why you're on ignore


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 10, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > The people who work there are *also taxpayers*. My state tells me that when children turn over tables or hit, throw things, bite or etc, I cannot restrain them. I must stand there and take it.
> ...



Can't control them if the school wont let you. 

You're not awfully bright


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...



But remember: one enlightened poster in this thread said it's not our JOB to parent, so just let the kidlets turn the tables over and go right on teaching.

Honestly, some of the stuff I read here kills brain cells it's so stupid. Like it needs a warning label: WARNING CONTENT DANGEROUS TO YOUR BRAIN....IF YOU HAVE ONE


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



It's distractions and disrupts class. Not fair to the other kids


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...



It goes well beyond distractions. In my area we call it "evacuation"--that means the entire class has to leave the classroom when a kid meltsdown. Other districts have other names of this. So not only is the class distracted, the class is either walking the hallways or sitting in an empty classroom, learning NOTHING. Doing NOTHING.

In some classrooms this happens multiple times a week, sometimes DAILY.

And the yahoos here think, yeah, we just can't handle the kids. Yep, that must be it. 

(The following is just ONE example. This is happening all over the nation.)

_Parents frustrated that their children have been evacuated from a kindergarten classroom at a Brighton elementary school 28 times in the first three months of the school year sought help this week from school officials.

Courtney Lusk, a mother of twin daughters in the Hilton Elementary School kindergarten class, told the Board of Education one child has caused all the disruptions, and recited a litany of dates throughout October and November where the child threw shoes, books, crayons, chairs and a toy box. 

“Our children are literal sitting ducks in this classroom,” she said. “Our children have a right to a safe education, they should be learning to read and write and do math, instead of being taught to evacuate, run to their lockers and show kindness to a student who traumatizes them on a regular basis."

'Enough': 28 evacuations in 3 months, parents of Brighton kindergartners plead for help_


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...



When you have one child causing so much grief it needs to be addressed. If it can't be controlled then expel the little monster. 

Absolutely no reason for that


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

sparky said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > And what is your experience in the schools?
> ...



In the case of the article I just linked: what if your kindergarten child is in this class and has been evacuated 28 times in three months due to another child's behavior?

Got any answer for that, sparky? Tell me about the rights and responsibilities of the parent of that child

Tell me about your rights as a parent of your child in that class

Tell me about the rights and responsibilities of the teacher

Go


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 10, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...



This is precisely what I mean by the Social Contract.

IMO we give entirely too much power to those who cause the absolute most disruption. It has been this way for years. Some on this site say I don't like teaching my Special Needs children. That's not it. But when the needs of a very few make learning impossible and even dangerous for the many--you know things are out of control.

Really....it's an outgrowth of the Victim Mentality. The children causing the disruptions they have Something Wrong With Them, see. They're Victims. So we must cater and kowtow and understand rather than correct.

And....here we are.

ETA: Many think the children causing disruption have something wrong with them even if they do not. IOW even if there is no diagnosis. They must be a Victim somehow. So again, coddling.


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## SassyIrishLass (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...



When you don't discipline and the other children are being forced to move from the classroom you're enabling. 

This would never happen at our children's schools. Bank that one, the situation would be addressed


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




its not your job to parent,,,but its your class and if a kid gets out of line itys your job to get them  back in line,,and if that takes an ass whoopin then do it,,,

as a parent you have my permission

if you are not allowed to whoop their ass then kick them out and let the parents deal with them


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


A lot, actually.  For you to not acknowledge that tells us quite a bit.


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


Where?  Be specific.


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > 22lcidw said:
> ...


Many states...the states with the lowest test scores, btw.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...


link please,,,


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...


There it is!   What you really want is your silly religious indoctrination...your christian sharia...taught.


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > My daughter is a  public school teacher.  I have asked her to come up with all the ways she indoctrinated her students.  She will get a laugh out of it though.  She does her job although many robots bastardize her because she has her Summers off, etc.  She laughs the comments like that right off because those are made by people who gobble up the empty rhetoric.  Sure there are bad teachers, just like every other profession.  But there are many many good ones who show up and do a great job despite low thought comments made by those who should be showing the nation how to do the job.  A few schools in big cities don't represent the nation as a whole.
> ...


The answer to why big city schools have problems is right in front of everyone's face....the parents.  If it were the teachers, they could just shuffle teachers around until the inner city schools were doing wonderfully and the rich suburb schools would have the issues.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




I never said that


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > Still waiting to find where all this indoctrination is happening.  It's like finding Sasquatch.  If you want to fix a school go in and show us how those kids will just bow to you for knowledge.  Well sit back and watch.  Be a part of the solution.
> ...


You know Todd Starnes is one of the biggest liars ever to appear on FOX (and that's saying a lot), right?


----------



## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


Your school apparently failed you.


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...


Head Start is getting cut.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




in many ways thats correct,,,


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...


How would it be addressed?


----------



## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...


Against the law in all 50 states.  Most teachers cannot even touch them.


----------



## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...




It's not that simple either.


----------



## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


Were you an active participant in your education?  Were your parents active participants in your education?  Or did you expect to be an empty vessel that your teachers poured knowledge into?


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




and there in lies the problem,,,


----------



## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > BasicHumanUnit said:
> ...


Nothing is that simple.....but wouldn't it be nice to address what I call the biggest problem first?


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




yes,,


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


So you admit it's not the teachers....it's the law....the law passed by the people of all 50 states.


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## bodecea (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


Interesting answer.   I DO see how you didn't get an education.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




that law was never passed by the people,,,


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




who said I didnt get one???

i'm smart enough to have a conversation on a box full of silicone parts,,,


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...



You can't "fix" one aspect alone when they are all interconnected.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...




thats why he said to address the biggest problem FIRST ,,,and then go to the next problem,,,

easier to fix one problem at a time,,,


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




but you can fix one problem at a time , and starting with the biggest first is just smart,,,


why are you ignoring what he says???


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> The answer to why big city schools have problems is right in front of everyone's face....the parents.  If it were the teachers, they could just shuffle teachers around until the inner city schools were doing wonderfully and the rich suburb schools would have the issues.



You're only halfway there, even though it IS right in front of your face.
But it's an inconvenient truth that you will deny.

It's the Democrat / Liberal POLICIES that govern schools and society that are failing us.
The parents are failing because the politics and laws are messed up.
It's the Left's obsession with policies of political correctness and welfare and criminal leniency that's creating all these bad parents.
It's the Left's obsession with open borders causing our resources to be over extended and court systems to be overwhelmed so that people needing help cannot or do not get it.

This specifically is what creates your bad parents in the first place.   Bad parents don't just magically happen for the most part.
Today we have mobs of black kids ransacking Walgreen's and fighting inside Disney.  SOCIAL POLICIES create those people.  Lack of proper intervention, compliments of the Left.   These are not Conservative values.

And no, shuffling teachers around isn't an answer.  Again, until you can understand the dynamics of the process, your kind will continue to exacerbate the problem exactly as has been happening over the last 100 years plus.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> You know Todd Starnes is one of the biggest liars ever to appear on FOX (and that's saying a lot), right?



If you don't agree with it....then it MUST be a lie.   Got it.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> Against the law in all 50 states.  Most teachers cannot even touch them.



Bingo.  Thanks Democrats


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

bodecea said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




There is no "first" when all the parts of the problem are interconnected.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...




first is the one you start with,,,whether it be 5 mins or 5 yrs,,,one is always first,,,


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




You need to work on your reading skills.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


how so??


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## Darkwind (Jul 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...


Where would they go?  My thought is homeschooled.  

No, what I mean is that the child will have to demonstrate to a professional the necessary behavior to attend any part of the k - 12 program.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have needy children, they should be in separate classes.  For two reasons.

1.  They have special needs that require a lot of time and resources which would detract from the other kids

2.  Having needy kids in a class of children who do not have these special needs, in My opinion, hampers their ability to achieve their best.


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## Darkwind (Jul 10, 2019)

sparky said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > And what is your experience in the schools?
> ...


Not when it interferes with the service I demand.


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## Darkwind (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > ... other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful. .....
> ...


To lesser degrees than in the past.  Of course, they were more effective in My generation because My, and other parents, did not put up with that kind of behavior from Me.


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## Darkwind (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



A change to the social contract is the topic I believe.


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...




So you want to do away with compulsory education?


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Nice try, dumbass!  I did as you asked!
> How to Use Toe the line Correctly – Grammarist
> Now, apologize for your insolence and ignorance and then STFU!



I like "Tow-The-Line" better.  I will continue to use it.  Thanks.  (And you're welcome to have a heart attack each time I do).  "Toe-the-line" originated in the 1800's.
Lots of phrases and words are changing in modern times.  Maybe I'll submit "Tow-The-Line" to Miriam Webster as in my opinion it has a slightly different connotation.

But more importantly......
You mis quoted me from the starting line.  Go back and look at exactly what I said verbatim.

I did not say "Tow-The-Line.....initially I said....."tow the hard Left line".   A little different imo.
.
MY meaning was a hybrid,... she was not willing to follow the agenda or pull her weight as a Leftist or fall in line AND OR conform to their standards.
Sure, I could have used Toe The hard left Line.....but even if it was a mistake, are you that triggered and that much of a grammar Nazi?

As far as your demand for an admission of my "insolence and ignorance", and demand that I then STFU ? 

lol.   Sure,... after you ITG.


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Nice try, dumbass!  I did as you asked!
> ...




So you'll continue to be wrong? On purpose? Interesting choice.


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## Darkwind (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


I'd like to modify it so that children who do no meet a minimum behavioral standard would have to be homeschooled, and I'd make that mandatory on the parents or face civil and criminal liability.

That fact that we mandate that children go to school is an interesting concept given that we don't mandate that they achieve a minimum standard competency or force them to graduate.


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## sparky (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




We (Joe public) do not _demand_,  the system demands and Joe public _obeys_, does _not_ question, and is summarillay dismissed if s/he _does_ so

~S~

~S~


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> So you'll continue to be wrong? On purpose? Interesting choice.



My choice. Mind your own business

Obamacare was more wrong...but many were ok with it.  Interesting choice.


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...




Have you considered the consequences of such a policy?


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> Why not just go ahead and learn a new language instead of pretending to make your own version of this one.



Why don't you man up and go down to the local Black Panthers meeting and push that demand when they use words you feel are not proper?  Didn't think so.
You and the other one are welcomed to have a stroke if it bothers you that much.
Last time....My Choice.  I'm not pushing it on anyone else.   Now run along and find a life.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

To save the schools and change the "Social Contract" we must change the politics of this nation first.  That's the root of all these problems.  Legislators set the rules.
They are intertwined.

There is no way anyone is going to successfully change people like that on a national basis given the current political climate.   it's futile and self defeating.


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## Unkotare (Jul 10, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> To save the schools and change the "Social Contract" we must change the politics of this nation first.  That's the root of all these problems.  Legislators set the rules.
> ....



You want to eliminate the legislature? How would that work?


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 10, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> It's not a matter of what "you feel," it's a matter of correct or incorrect. And I correct people on such matters every day.



Knock yourself out.

Correct has been proven to be in the eye of the beholder.

Like I said....Obamacare was a much bigger wrong.....did you oppose that?
Millions of Leftards did not.

How about dropping the petty nonsense and adhering to the topic instead?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 10, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Nice try, dumbass!  I did as you asked!
> ...



When you "toe the line" you follow the requirements.

Pulling a fucking rope has nothing to do with the topic, dumbass!

The reason that "tow the line" has become used is idiots like you who misuse it.

Want to hear another one?  I hate when when people say it will "prolly" happen.  Are we suddenly just too fucking lazy to pronounce and spell all the letters in a word?


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## Darkwind (Jul 11, 2019)

Unkotare said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Yes.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...



The balance with general ed students and special needs students is delicate and in my years as a teacher I've seen the pendulum swing. Right now IMO we need to pay more attention to the "good of the whole", especially when entire classrooms are regularly being evacuated for the behavior of one student. NOTE: this is not always a special needs student either.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...



There is no mandate that children go to public school. They can be homeschooled or private schooled; there is only a mandate in most states that something be happening for their education. However, I'm not aware that ANY state can bar them out of public schooling unless there has been huge discipline issues that are well-documented (expulsion). Otherwise, people are paying taxes for a service and the gov't is saying, no, not for you. That's discriminatory and, yeah, I can see the problem there.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

sparky said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > sparky said:
> ...



That's crap, and you never responded to me because of course you cannot. The staff in the school are also taxpayers. So are the parents of the other children.

In fact of all the posts in this thread, yours is probably the most instructive to my point. You come along and say *I* am a taxpayer, *I* demand a service and it should be the WAY I SAY. Well alright, you have one child in one classroom in a class of 25 children in a school of 20 classes. 

Fine and dandy if your child is a fairly middle-of-the-road child. Most teachers do everything they can to make sure you child is learning. If you are THAT PARENT and your child is an obnoxious troublemaker, now we have a problem, don't we?

Teacher calls about Little Angel and you say "Little Angel is never a problem at home, and by the way, I pay your salary and _that trumps everything_ so don't tell me about Little Angel"....and we're off to the races. This is not necessarily the norm these days--I have many wonderful parents at my school--but it is far, far from rare, let me tell you. And it is a huge reason why teachers are quitting.

Again, the Social Contract. Or, Rights and Responsibilities. Maybe parent have the Right to expect a good education for their child but the Responsibility to help their child be a good citizen in their classroom. Wow, imagine that.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> To save the schools and change the "Social Contract" we must change the politics of this nation first.  That's the root of all these problems.  Legislators set the rules.
> They are intertwined.
> 
> There is no way anyone is going to successfully change people like that on a national basis given the current political climate.   it's futile and self defeating.



Not necessarily. I already see the faint rumblings of change happening. I see parents deciding--as in the article I linked in this thread--that their kinders being evacuated from their classroom 28 times in two months because of one student is too much and then going all the way to the school board about it. That was in their local newspaper.

And that's how it starts. That's a mass of parents putting pressure on the parents of one student to take care of a situation. However that looks.


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## JoeB131 (Jul 11, 2019)

SassyIrishLass said:


> Can't control them if the school wont let you.
> 
> You're not awfully bright



again, if you can't intimidate a room full of five year olds into compliance, then you probably should find something else to do for a living. 

You see, I see our problem in Public Education to be quite the opposite. A lot of people who SHOULD be fired can't be.


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## JoeB131 (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> In the case of the article I just linked: what if your kindergarten child is in this class and has been evacuated 28 times in three months due to another child's behavior?
> 
> Got any answer for that, sparky? Tell me about the rights and responsibilities of the parent of that child



If it is happening that often, then it sounds like that kid has some serious emotional problems and need evaluation. 

"Evacuated", you mean the little five year old comes in with a gun?


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## JoeB131 (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Teacher calls about Little Angel and you say "Little Angel is never a problem at home, and by the way, I pay your salary and _that trumps everything_ so don't tell me about Little Angel"....and we're off to the races. This is not necessarily the norm these days--I have many wonderful parents at my school--but it is far, far from rare, let me tell you. And it is a huge reason why teachers are quitting.
> 
> Again, the Social Contract. Or, Rights and Responsibilities. Maybe parent have the Right to expect a good education for their child but the Responsibility to help their child be a good citizen in their classroom. Wow, imagine that.



Maybe they have the right not to have a nutjob preaching religious morality from the front of the classroom if they aren't into that kind of thing. 

I think in another thread you were so proud that so many of your third graders believed in Jesus.  (Of course, most of them at that age still think Santa is real.)


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## candycorn (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> 
> To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.
> 
> ...



Points 1 and 4 are good points. 
Reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies would probably help insofar as eliminating the specter of forcing people to become mothers who

A) aren’t ready
B) aren’t equipped monetarily, financially, spiritually, or even mentally or physically
C) simply don’t want or even like children
D) are kids themselves

Of course, this would mean that the entire abortion debate and the strictly republican penchant for cutting family planning dollars would have to do a 180 degree turn.  That won’t happen. 

As far as it goes; teachers really have an impossible job in some cases.  But you can’t turn the boat around if you don’t turn the device in the wheelhouse.  Cutting a class size in 2027 by 2 or 3 students who are raised by not-ready, not equipped or not interested parents is a logical first step.  

Paying teachers like the professionals they are would be a good second step but we know that won’t happen either.


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## sparky (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Fine and dandy if your child is a fairly middle-of-the-road child. Most teachers do everything they can to make sure you child is learning. If you are THAT PARENT and your child is an obnoxious troublemaker, now we have a problem, don't we?



I agree.   But the real problem is, the ed system labels EVERY child troublesome , along with a canned speech to drug them all into oblivion



SweetSue92 said:


> Again, the Social Contract. Or, Rights and Responsibilities. Maybe parent have the Right to expect a good education for their child but the Responsibility to help their child be a good citizen in their classroom. Wow, imagine that.



My point is, parents have no rights once they cross the threshold into the classrooom, everything presented them is not asking , it's demanding , they have no choice(s)



JoeB131 said:


> You see, I see our problem in Public Education to be quite the opposite. A lot of people who SHOULD be fired can't be.



Especially the mental health loosers hiding out there, most of whom can't cut a job in the real world

~S~


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

candycorn said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> ...



K I'm going to give this the space for one post and then no more because this is NOT about abortion. Your take on the situation is entirely too simplistic. You're assuming all the misbehaving kids were "unplanned", "unwanted" or whatever. You might have a case I guess if that could be proven, but of course it cannot be proven. People's lives are messy. Some people who think they want to be parents prove to be unfit for the task; others want to be parents but other life circumstances make parenting difficult; other people who didn't think they wanted to be parents turn out to be amazing parents. It's not a straight line.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

sparky said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Fine and dandy if your child is a fairly middle-of-the-road child. Most teachers do everything they can to make sure you child is learning. If you are THAT PARENT and your child is an obnoxious troublemaker, now we have a problem, don't we?
> ...



K I don't have time for nonsense.

Your nonsense:

"EVERY child is troublesome"----straight and utter BS

"Parents have no rights"

You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope. No one has any real solutions, just polarizing and absolutely ridiculous nonsense. What a society of complete morons we've become. Really.


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## sparky (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope.



I'm far from alone



SweetSue92 said:


> No one has any real solutions, just polarizing and absolutely ridiculous nonsense.



My solution?

Local control

allow the 'customer'...IE-parent decisions based on performance 

i'd come down on sorts who demomize children like God's own 'effin hammer !

Sorts like you'd be a walmart greeter in a cocaine hearbeat Sue

~S~


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

sparky said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope.
> ...



What do you think "school boards" are Sparky? That is local control.

And you are the perfect reason we don't let parents directly decide who gets fired and hired. IN short, you're butthurt because you don't like my opinions. Butthurt would get me fired. It has nothing to do with my job performance....butthurt and that alone.

IOW, you're a liberal


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

sparky said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope.
> ...



"*demonize"........*

To fainting-couch sitting, smelling-salt sniffing, corset-wearing leftists, that just means talking about any group and/or person in an argument they can't win.

IE, "Why should one child in one class cause a class of kindergartners to evacuate their classroom 28 times in two months?"

This means I'm "DEMONIZING" that child, see. 

Don't by cowed by this nonsense. I'm not. The question still stands. Why does ONE child have the right to continue to cause 20 other children to vacate their room 28 times in two months???


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## JoeB131 (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> "*demonize"........*
> 
> To fainting-couch sitting, smelling-salt sniffing, corset-wearing leftists, that just means talking about any group and/or person in an argument they can't win.
> 
> ...



again, if this happens that often, then clearly there needs to be an intervention by mental health professionals.  

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".   Did he come in with a machine gun?  "Kids, today we are going to talk about the Second Amendment!"


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> When you "toe the line" you follow the requirements.
> Pulling a fucking rope has nothing to do with the topic, dumbass!
> The reason that "tow the line" has become used is idiots like you who misuse it.
> Want to hear another one?  I hate when when people say it will "prolly" happen.  Are we suddenly just too fucking lazy to pronounce and spell all the letters in a word?



You know, considering most of your ideals align with mine, we really shouldn't be here.
You believe in the 2nd etc, and so do I.

This is small potatoes.   There are REAL problems to be resolved.  Save your energy for fighting the real enemies of America and not those basically on the same side.
Toe the line is the norm.....but for whatever reason I like my version better.  Again my choice.
If you let your head explode over small things like this then that's on you.

If you've read my posts you well know I'm educated and quite literate, but who's "perfect"?.   Last time....it's simply a choice I made.   Save your energy for the truly illiterate and gross offenders.  Or better yet, try being tolerant and focusing on what really matters.

And while I certainly could, I don't need to call you a "dumbass" or "idiot" every post to make my point.  I'm just not that emotionally invested as you prolly are.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".



Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Not necessarily. I already see the faint rumblings of change happening. I see parents deciding--as in the article I linked in this thread--that their kinders being evacuated from their classroom 28 times in two months because of one student is too much and then going all the way to the school board about it. That was in their local newspaper.
> 
> And that's how it starts. That's a mass of parents putting pressure on the parents of one student to take care of a situation. However that looks.



Sure, there may be some isolated instances, but it's like being in a row boat in the middle of the Pacific, fighting against a storm.
Until the storm settles down, any progress will be difficult if not impossible overall.

The political climate drives the social climate (Look around, seriously).  And that is the force driving the ocean representing the root of the problem.

For example,
The political climate has pushed the social agenda of teaching elementary school children (by LAW), the ins and outs of homosexuality (see California).
Is this really what 8 and 9 year olds need to be learning in school?

There's an expression...."You can't beat City Hall"....
And in essence, "City Hall" (government) drives all the policies to which the schools must adhere, as well as all laws governing how parents must raise their children at home etc and what "rights" parents have or do not have in dealing with their own children.

As I said, as long as politics are harmful to the family unit and children, progress will be isolated to extreme cases, such as the example you gave.  But overall, the schools will continue to deteriorate.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Not necessarily. I already see the faint rumblings of change happening. I see parents deciding--as in the article I linked in this thread--that their kinders being evacuated from their classroom 28 times in two months because of one student is too much and then going all the way to the school board about it. That was in their local newspaper.
> ...



I hope you're ready to listen now. Really listen.

You think the problems are coming from within the schools. As if the children--the products of this broken culture, really--are coming to us with clean, unwritten slates and on those slates all of us, to a teacher, are writing the most prurient and unwholesome things. 

That almost never happens. 

It is so rare I can tell you, yes, almost never. In CA yes and in other very liberal bastions. Otherwise, the children of this very broken, busted up and sad culture are coming to us.....well....broken, sad and busted up. Some of them have never known a stable and secure adult in their life. So really, they want the kindergarten teacher to be mommy. So while the kindergarten teacher is trying to be mommy to this child....and a lot of other children in the class...you are bashing the teacher for "teaching homosexuality". Which in all likelihood she has never done and will never do.

Wow, I'm gobsmacked at this teacher shortage. I really am. //////


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".
> ...



Yes.

That is because in my state, my idiot legislature has passed a law that we cannot touch children except in the most dire emergencies. So. If you have a five year old child hitting, biting, kicking and throwing things in the room, and you are the only adult in the room, YOU CANNOT RESTRAIN THAT CHILD. You cannot even touch the child. By law.

At that point your only recompense is to remove the other children from the room. For their safety and for yours.

I would also like to point out to everyone who is so naive in this thread how very physically destructive young people, even children, can be when they are melting down. Realize most of us who work in elementary schools are women. I am very petite. Many third graders outweigh me. So yes, these children can easily take me out. Realize I did not go into this job thinking that hand to hand combat was part of the job. 

So really.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".
> ...



Educate yourselves

Violent Behavior In Elementary Students Becoming More Prevalent


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Yes.
> 
> That is because in my state, my idiot legislature has passed a law that we cannot touch children except in the most dire emergencies. So. If you have a five year old child hitting, biting, kicking and throwing things in the room, and you are the only adult in the room, YOU CANNOT RESTRAIN THAT CHILD. You cannot even touch the child. By law.
> 
> ...



I will admit that I forgot that while I'm fairly large and muscular, we are often talking about women who may be much smaller.
So on that I see your point.
A 5 or 6 year old would probably be more of a threat and harder to handle to a smaller person.  Whereas, I could just stand in front of them and that would be that.

And you mentioned the LAWs.   Yes.  That is exactly my point about the political climate. Politics/Legislation sets the Laws.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Educate yourselves
> 
> Violent Behavior In Elementary Students Becoming More Prevalent



huh?
Is this not exactly what I've been saying...and even why?


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> I hope you're ready to listen now. Really listen.
> 
> You think the problems are coming from within the schools. As if the children--the products of this broken culture, really--are coming to us with clean, unwritten slates and on those slates all of us, to a teacher, are writing the most prurient and unwholesome things.
> 
> ...



Hmmm....not sure where you got that AT ALL ????
Where did I say that?   (I didn't)

I said POLITICS is the root of the problem, whether it be in CA or elsewhere. 
California Leads the Way Teaching LGBT History to Schoolchildren

With all due respect, you are either not reading or not comprehending.  And I seriously mean no disrespect.


----------



## ralfy (Jul 11, 2019)

Our Prussian model of public schooling; controlling the masses



> Educator John Taylor Gatto’s book, “The Underground History of American Education,” describes how the system came to America:
> 
> “A small number of passionate ideological leaders visited Prussia in the first half of the 19th Century, fell in love with the order, obedience, and efficiency of its educational system and campaigned relentlessly thereafter to bring the Prussian vision to our shores. To do that, children would have to be removed from their parents and inappropriate cultural influences.”


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope you're ready to listen now. Really listen.
> ...



And I am telling you POLITICS is not the root of the problem. Our culture is the problem. IOW it's not teachers teaching politics in the classroom that is really the problem. It's the cultural stew all around--that the children are coming to us FROM--that is the problem. 

yes?


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

ralfy said:


> Our Prussian model of public schooling; controlling the masses
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So forget all that. Take it back to the one-room schoolhouse back in the day. 

Are you going to pretend then that children were not "removed from their parents"? 

Are you going to pretend that there was no "order, obedience and efficiency"? 

I mean, go back before Horace Mann--forget all that. Would you have your children in schools and...what? You would be there too? There would be no order, obedience and efficiency? 

I never know what point people are trying to make when they just throw down articles like this. Just because Mann might have been trying to make good Prussian like citizens does NOT mean good schools should not have order and efficiency. For heaven's sake


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




the problem is obvious,,,its the solution that eludes you,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > BasicHumanUnit said:
> ...



Let's hear it


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

ralfy said:


> Our Prussian model of public schooling; controlling the masses
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And realize if you go back much BEFORE Mann, you had vast differences in schooling. You had governesses, boarding schools...and children either working or street urchins. So no schooling at all for those kids.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...





I would look back in time to when our  schools were some of the best in the world and start there,,

you know when they focused on the 3'rs and not indoctrination,,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



That's no solution. It's wishcasting....nebulous conservative stuff, like when liberals say crap like "the arc of history bends toward justice". It's meaningless craptrap

A SOLUTION

Try again


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




so whats you idea other than complaining all day???


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



Ummm

It's in the OP


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...





so your solution is communism???

our social contract was violated when the fed government got involved,,get them out and let the locals choose for themselves,,,


----------



## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


Then...what are YOU actively doing to get the law against corporal punishment changed in your state?   Tell us.


----------



## dblack (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



If there was ever a case of "conflict of interest", it's government "educating" voters.


----------



## Unkotare (Jul 11, 2019)

Darkwind said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...





And?


----------



## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


"who said I didnt get one???"

Your attempts at English in your posts.   Your woeful lack of knowledge about schools.  That's what is telling us.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




well you seem to understand what I'm saying,,,so I must have a grasp of the language,,,


----------



## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > Can't control them if the school wont let you.
> ...


"Intimidate"... so you think that's good teaching?


----------



## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".
> ...


What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things.   Let him/her hurt the other students?   The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



I don't necessarily disagree that we should have probably never had a "public option" for schools. If I had been around, say, 120 or so years ago, I would have been as opposed to them as I am as opposed to a "public option" for health care now.

However. Here we are. Now, what my fellow conservatives offer is....empty garbage like this. "communism". No, it's really not at the very least communism. You have a vote at the local school board level, and you do not HAVE to send your children to the the public schools.

When I ask you for solutions, you just rant and rave.

It's a bad look. Conservatives are really, really REALLY bad at education. Sorry, but we are. Your posts are Exhibit A.


----------



## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


How do the 3 r's work in today's technological world?


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...



And five year olds.

Don't miss that part.


----------



## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...


I can understand Tarzan in the old movies too.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




what did you mean by collective rights???

and who said I was against a public option??

communities can do as they see fit,,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...



Oh they still work. And they actually work better than the technology in the much younger grades. 

Actually the digital stuff if ruining our babies' brains. But that's a whole 'nother topic


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




so  you say,,,


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things.   Let him/her hurt the other students?   The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.



I already stated what I suggest be done in this thread, at length.   Sorry you missed it.

And I made no such suggestion as allowing bad behavior.

I know how to stop it.  But I cannot do it alone.  And unfortunately, most on the Left vehemently support the root of the problem.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




thats easy,,,remove them from class


----------



## dblack (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> what did you mean by collective rights???



"Collective rights" is the power to gang up on people and make them do what you want.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Okay and yes. Here is a main point in my OP actually.

Right now, the children doing all the disrupting--no, not the CHILDREN, their parents--are holding all the "power". They have the law and the threat of lawsuits over everyone, and this is not right. It's not just or fair. Their disruption and behavior is now causing major upheaval for the education of all the other children all over the nation.

I'm saying that the parents of the OTHER children--those are the ones that have to not be intimidated by "victim mentality" and begin to file lawsuits. I just read an article about a child who had a pair of scissors thrown at her head in her elementary classroom.

No more. Let the other parents start filing suit when the districts do not protect their children


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Conservatives are really, really REALLY bad at education. Sorry, but we are. Your posts are Exhibit A.



Then why are you in that profession if you admit how horrible you are at it?

And I totally disagree.  Conservatives can make THE BEST teachers.   But they prolly find it difficult to be their best in the political climate in which they have to operate.

Why on Earth would you claim to be a Conservative teacher, then say Conservative teachers are "really, really REALLY bad at education"?

Specifically, what do you mean?


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




the same way they did before,,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > what did you mean by collective rights???
> ...



No.

Collective Rights is right to, say, a safe and supportive classroom. When your behavior makes the classroom no longer safe, your right to be there is lost.

We do this as a society all the time. The Collective says if your idea of happiness is to go around raping people, the Collective says we're taking your liberty away.

This is not new, people.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Okay and yes. Here is a main point in my OP actually.
> 
> Right now, the children doing all the disrupting--no, not the CHILDREN, their parents--are holding all the "power". They have the law and the threat of lawsuits over everyone, and this is not right. It's not just or fair. Their disruption and behavior is now causing major upheaval for the education of all the other children all over the nation.
> 
> ...



And........
What happens when lawsuits are filed, and Liberal Left wing judges toss the suits or find in favor of the defendants?
because in this political climate, that is exactly what happens all too often.

Again, we are facing a political crisis, which leads to a social crisis.  Try as you may, you will never succeed at fixing the school crisis until we fix the political crisis.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...




no its not new,,,communism like this has been around for over 100 yrs


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > BasicHumanUnit said:
> ...



Exactly. And why? Because the Collective (the school, or society) decided on some rules to establish peace and order. And if an individual cannot abide by those, freedom (liberty) is taken away.

None of these poster paid one damn bit of attention is civics. "conservatives" sure


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Okay I'm done. You have no working knowledge at all of societal systems of political systems or anything

I do not have time to walk you through 8th grade civics, sorry


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...




what if the collective says otherwise and that its OK???

face it sweety your a communist,,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay and yes. Here is a main point in my OP actually.
> ...



The crisis is at least 50% cultural if not more. 

Weak sauce saying "Don't sue, judges"


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




I know enough to know youre a communist,,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



Hey bodecea check that this Trump voter is a communist now

Yep


----------



## TRFjr (Jul 11, 2019)

back in the day you misbehaved you was sent to the principals office bent over and paddled 
now you misbehaved there isnt any consequences you just get psychoanalyzed and if you are a POC societal injustice and institutional racism gets blamed if you are white your white privileged gets blamed  but the kids is never at fault 
but I will tell you never has a kid in any of the public schools I attended ever get violent with a teacher or staff


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

I didnt vote for trump,,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things.   Let him/her hurt the other students?   The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.
> ...



Oh make no mistake about it--the Left invited in much of the cultural chaos which has eroded the family. Remember, I work with children, thank God in heaven--truly the most superior humans.  When you erode the family, the culture suffers, and children suffer immensely.


----------



## TRFjr (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> I didnt vote for trump,,,


your get another chance to be on the winning side in 2020


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Conservatives are really, really REALLY bad at education. Sorry, but we are. Your posts are Exhibit A.
> ...



My evaluations are so good that less than 10% of teachers in my district are evaluated at my level. In a very good district one of the best in my state. I have won awards and am nationally published. I don't care if you believe me; it's true. 

I mean that conservatives as a whole are bad at educational policy and coming up with solutions.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

TRFjr said:


> back in the day you misbehaved you was sent to the principals office bent over and paddled
> now you misbehaved there isnt any consequences you just get psychoanalyzed and if you are a POC societal injustice and institutional racism gets blamed if you are white your white privileged gets blamed  but the kids is never at fault
> but I will tell you never has a kid in any of the public schools I attended ever get violent with a teacher or staff



There's a lot of "non-educational-ese" but just good honest truth here.

I'm not for corporal punishment on kids, nope. I don't want to be putting hands on kids. Nope. 

However.

Kids do very, very well with firm boundaries. I really believe in the Latin root of "discipline"--to teach. The purpose is not to make them feel bad or humiliate them but it IS to lead them to productive, fulfilling adult lives. You don't get that by making every single second of their childhood amazing. Sometimes they mess up and they, well, they need to know it and have an "out" for it. IN short...discipline. "Hey you messed up...here's what we're gonna do to make it better"

You would not believe how many parents do not even do that anymore. I mean it. You would probably not believe it. 

These posts of mine are not because I'm just fried out or whatever---they're because I'm just so concerned. For the kids, our families, our schools! Young teachers coming up. Ugh


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

TRFjr said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > I didnt vote for trump,,,
> ...




my soul deserves better,,,


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




why dont you answer the question of ,,

what if the collective decide its OK for 1 student to disrupt an entire class???


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




being that our education system has been a leftist one for over 50 yrs how would you know what a conservative one would look like???


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> TRFjr said:
> 
> 
> > back in the day you misbehaved you was sent to the principals office bent over and paddled
> ...




isnt that the collective deciding????


----------



## dblack (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > progressive hunter said:
> ...



How is that different than what I said?


----------



## TRFjr (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> TRFjr said:
> 
> 
> > back in the day you misbehaved you was sent to the principals office bent over and paddled
> ...


you first attempt to have kids respect you so not to misbehave but unless the kid is taught to respect at an early age its to late and the only tool you are left with is fear


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...




its not different,,,she just doenst understand shes a communist at heart,,,


----------



## TRFjr (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > TRFjr said:
> ...


no its the principal deciding


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

TRFjr said:


> progressive hunter said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




based on what the parents wanted,,,and if they wanted their bad kid allowed in class,,,well they as a collective have a right to have their way dont they???


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> The crisis is at least 50% cultural if not more.
> Weak sauce saying "Don't sue, judges"



There you go again.
Point out where I said "don't sue, judges"?
You cannot.

I'm beginning to realize you have a serious problem with comprehension and that is not intended in a malicious context.
It's is an observation.

That, or you are willfully deceptive.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> My evaluations are so good that less than 10% of teachers in my district are evaluated at my level. In a very good district one of the best in my state. I have won awards and am nationally published. I don't care if you believe me; it's true.
> 
> *I mean that conservatives as a whole are bad at educational policy and coming up with solutions*.



Excuse my French, but that is utter, Left wing biased Horse shit.

You are prolly neither Christian NOR Conservative.  Your entire premise in this thread is a farce.
You claim to be a "Christian Conservative, and repeat that ad nausea, then go on to spill how "*:really, really REALLY Bad educators Conservatives are*"
You're no conservative.  So typical of nasty Left wingers
I was correct at the beginning of this thread when I called you a CINO.

Italian mobsters wear a cross and go to church...after a hit.....that does not make them Christians.
And more than one flaming gay person has claimed to be "conservative".


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 11, 2019)

sparky said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Fine and dandy if your child is a fairly middle-of-the-road child. Most teachers do everything they can to make sure you child is learning. If you are THAT PARENT and your child is an obnoxious troublemaker, now we have a problem, don't we?
> ...



Excuse me, but how many years were you a classroom teacher?  If not, you are totally clueless!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > My evaluations are so good that less than 10% of teachers in my district are evaluated at my level. In a very good district one of the best in my state. I have won awards and am nationally published. I don't care if you believe me; it's true.
> ...



Do you want an example of how poor educators conservative politicians are?  Florida had a school accountability formula under Jeb Bush that assigned grades for schools based on numerous factors.  The first year, the top schools received great scores, all "A"s.  The next year, the top schools slipped to "B"s and the third to "C"s and eventually received a grade of "F".  One of these schools was rated in the nation's top 15 high schools by US News and World Report, and another in the top 100.  Why?

The conservative morons in the state legislature designed the formula that required a minimum of 2% growth in a key test score.  So why is that a problem?  Those schools were already scoring in the 90th percentiles when the system was implemented.  If you go from 90% to 91%, you don't meet the requirement and get knocked down a letter.  Fast forward 5 years, and the schools are scoring in the high 90th percentile, yet according to the state's morons in system, were failing schools.

A high school math student should have seen the problem with their calculations.

BTW, only incredibly lazy morons use the non-word "prolly".


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > When you "toe the line" you follow the requirements.
> ...



You just strive to prove yourself as a dumbass or diot, so I accommodate you and validate your feelings.  BTW, "prolly" (sic) best to use real words when communicating.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > *Conservatives are really, really REALLY bad at education. *Sorry, but we are. Your posts are Exhibit A.
> ...



She did not say conservative teachers.  Try reading for comprehension, please!


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




sorry but jeb bush is not a conservative, hes a progressive,,,


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > My evaluations are so good that less than 10% of teachers in my district are evaluated at my level. In a very good district one of the best in my state. I have won awards and am nationally published. I don't care if you believe me; it's true.
> ...



If you're going to drag me for reading comprehension problems and then quote me maybe try to get my quotes right just as a bare minimum. I did not say "what bad educators Conservatives are" I said Conservatives are "really bad at education" and clarified what I meant. If you cannot comprehend the difference, honestly, you have the reading comprehension problem, not me.

And being willing to call out serious issues on your side of the aisle, trust me,  is a huge asset, not a disservice. I am a Conservative. I do not worship Conservatism and therefore, DO NOT owe it my blind unwavering fealty and devotion.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



What word did you use to show the majority of people?

_*Gang*_. To "gang up". So not so much an organized civilization of people "making you do what they want" but a rogue group of tyrants. 

Right, so then, not a society built on Rights and Responsibilities then. So, different from what we're talking about here.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> BTW, only incredibly lazy morons use the non-word "prolly".



(says the genius who'll shoot people who basically are on the same side, over grammar,...brilliant)
That requires a noteworty IQ all things considered.  

Ok, whatever you say.
You're prolly right.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...



Conservative educational policy often sees children as widgets. When the widgets don't widget as factory specified, the schools, and teachers, must pay. 

In many way liberals are no better, and in many ways a lot worse. But conservatives surely do not make a great showing.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> If you're going to drag me for reading comprehension problems and then quote me maybe try to get my quotes right just as a bare minimum. I did not say "what bad educators Conservatives are" I said Conservatives are "really bad at education" and clarified what I meant. If you cannot comprehend the difference, honestly, you have the reading comprehension problem, not me.
> 
> And being willing to call out serious issues on your side of the aisle, trust me,  is a huge asset, not a disservice. I am a Conservative. I do not worship Conservatism and therefore, DO NOT owe it my blind unwavering fealty and devotion.



okee dokey.
whatever you say.

This thread has dead ended so I'm prolly done.
You'll need to tow the line from here.
Have fun.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jul 11, 2019)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> She did not say conservative teachers.  Try reading for comprehension, please!



Yeah she did.  But thanks for playing.
You closet Libs are nutz.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...




what youre talking about is mob rule based on communism,,,,

you never said what happens if the collective says to leave the bad kids in class??


----------



## dblack (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> What word did you use to show the majority of people?
> 
> _*Gang*_. To "gang up". So not so much an organized civilization of people "making you do what they want" but a rogue group of tyrants.



That was deliberate. Democracy advocates like to pretend that their solution isn't about force, but of course it is.



> Right, so then, not a society built on Rights and Responsibilities then. So, different from what we're talking about here.



A right is a freedom, not a grant of power. What you refer to as "collective rights" is simply the power of the majority to bully the minority. Some of you seem to think that going through the process of taking a vote legitimizes that bullying, but it doesn't.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > She did not say conservative teachers.  Try reading for comprehension, please!
> ...



No, I didn't. 

Reading comprehension fail. Again.


----------



## Unkotare (Jul 11, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, only incredibly lazy morons use the non-word "prolly".
> ...





I wish the tow of you could get along.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > What word did you use to show the majority of people?
> ...



Newsflash for you: if you don't agree to live by a vote in a community than you devolve to gang warfare. So yes: society has a code we all agree--either overtly or not--to live by. Else the code is survival of the fittest and then anarchy.

You want survival of the fittest? Bully for you. Leave us out of it.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > SweetSue92 said:
> ...



what you are talking about is a democracy,,,and as we always see from history is those lead to communism,,,

but since youre a communist that would make sense,,,

America is a republic,,,,,

you must be public school educated,,,


----------



## dblack (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> dblack said:
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The concept of "collective rights" isn't referring to rights at all. It's referring to the idea that the majority can dictate to the minority in the general case. That's an abuse of government. The point of government isn't to command society - it's to protect our freedom.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

dblack said:


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No. Society sets up government to protect rights. So when I say collective rights, I mean the rights of the collective--the group. In school, the major rights are a safe place to learn. When an individual threatens those rights on the regular, then yes--the "majority" dictates that things have to change or steps will be taken. It would be interesting to find out how--or why--you would want this to change. Are you here saying that the right of one child to continually be disruptive outweighs the rights of all the other children to stay in their classroom with their teacher and learn? Or what?

Last, in most human group situations you are going to have a majority-rules situation. The difference is: does the majority rule by _*persuasion and election*_ (such as in our representative republic) or by _*brute force*_ (such as by gang warfare)? That is no small distinction and it's grossly unfair for you to equate the two.


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## dblack (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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Ok, so maybe I just not clear on how you're using the term "collective right". Let me ask you this: *what rights does a collective have that an individual does not?* 

In your example of a disruptive child (or anyone really), it's the individual rights of each child that are being violated. Where does the collective come into play? What makes a right "collective"?


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 11, 2019)

dblack said:


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So yes, individuals have rights and the collective--society--sets up a gov't to protect those rights. The collective does not have rights the individual does not; they are just acting as a society. They have gathered together to say you (the individual) are impeding on our right to learn--or whatever. 

I can only conclude you must be a Sovereign Citizen type or something....I don't know. Pertinent to my situation here: no families are "forced". You don't HAVE to send your children to public school.


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## sparky (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> "*demonize"........*





SweetSue92 said:


> You think the problems are coming from within the schools. As if the children--the products of this broken culture, really--are coming to us with clean, unwritten slates and on those slates all of us, to a teacher, are writing the most prurient and unwholesome things.





SweetSue92 said:


> Otherwise, the children of this very broken, busted up and sad culture are coming to us.....well....broken, sad and busted up. Some of them have never known a stable and secure adult in their life





SweetSue92 said:


> If you have a five year old child hitting, biting, kicking and throwing things in the room, and you are the only adult in the room, YOU CANNOT RESTRAIN THAT CHILD. You cannot even touch the child. By law.





SweetSue92 said:


> I would also like to point out to everyone who is so naive in this thread how very physically destructive young people, even children, can be when they are melting down





SweetSue92 said:


> Our culture is the problem





SweetSue92 said:


> Are you here saying that the right of one child to continually be disruptive outweighs the rights of all the other children to stay in their classroom with their teacher and learn?



_Thread after thread after thread _about the '*little angels*'  that distort & disturb your professional existence Sue

Maybe it's not the kids, maybe *YOU'RE* the problem if they all s*ck

Maybe it's time to retire

~S~


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## dblack (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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If collective rights are identical to individual rights, why do we need the term? It seems it means something in addition to the aggregate of the rights of each individual.



> I can only conclude you must be a Sovereign Citizen type or something....I don't know. Pertinent to my situation here: no families are "forced". You don't HAVE to send your children to public school.



Interesting. I'd never actual heard of the Sovereign Citizen movement. That's not my style though. While I reserve the right - the responsibility - to disobey an unjust law, skulking about isn't my style. I'd rather fight for a government that doesn't have me looking over my shoulder night and day.


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## ralfy (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> So forget all that. Take it back to the one-room schoolhouse back in the day.
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Actually, it goes even earlier to Plato's _Republic_.

I share these articles not because I'm against formal education but to see the Prussian background of public education in light of a social contract.


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## ralfy (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> And realize if you go back much BEFORE Mann, you had vast differences in schooling. You had governesses, boarding schools...and children either working or street urchins. So no schooling at all for those kids.



That's schooling. It's not the type of schooling enabled via the Prussian system, which involves standards practiced across the board.


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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Do you even understand the reference?


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

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And how do you do that without touching them?   Tell us.


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

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Unfortunately, Administrations COUNT ON the parents of the good children not making waves.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


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you call someone that is,,,

you are such a dumbass,,,


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

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Some people just cannot think past simple binary thoughts.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

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no you cant,,,


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

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Binary thinking again.....beats actually having to use any brain cells.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

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binary means 2 choices,,,I added a 3rd one ,,,

you are such a dumbass


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

sparky said:


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I believe that she's pointing out that many many teachers are doing just that or leaving early.....to the point that districts are having a hard time filling positions.


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

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And that would be........?  Even administrators are not allowed to.


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2019)

progressive hunter said:


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I accept your surrender.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 11, 2019)

bodecea said:


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youre stuck in binary thinking,,,

its called law enforcement,,,


you are such a dumbass,,,


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## Dick Foster (Jul 11, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> 
> To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.
> 
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I have a better idea. Let's just shutter the schools and let parents pay the private enterprise system to school their brats for a change. The good teachers will be hired and make more in the private enterprise schools and the parents might actually give a shit that they are getting their moneys worth and their kids are getting a real and useful education for a change. Nothing generates bang for the buck like free enterprise  and competition. We can force tax reductions from shuttering all the public schools so the net financial effect to the parents will wash. I'm sure the private enterprise  schools will be year round so the global scholastic standing of the whole country should rise from the current abysmal standing compared to other developed nations.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 12, 2019)

BasicHumanUnit said:


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Read your own quoted statements, dumbass!


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jul 12, 2019)

Dick Foster said:


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Dumbass.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 12, 2019)

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Well sparky if I"m rated in the top 10% of teachers year after year in my very highly rated school district, then clearly I'm not the problem, am I? And really my comments don't reflect that I can't handle the children or that I don't want to handle the children. My comments reflect that we have a blistering teacher shortage and a growing problem in the schools that no one is talking about. That you can't really address, so you made it personal. One more like this and you go to ignore!


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## anotherlife (Jul 12, 2019)

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What do you mean by teacher shortage?  It takes at least two and a half master degrees to become a school teacher, each costing minimum $100k. Even with all those coushie teacher Union salaries, you don't pay that off in a lifetime.  If there was a real teacher shortage, then this would definitely not happen.  Then even Pedro the janitor would be teaching maths class.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 12, 2019)

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Well this site is called "US Message Board" so we're talking about American schools here.


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## anotherlife (Jul 12, 2019)

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Yes.  My figures were in dollars too.  What makes you think I am not talking about America?


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 12, 2019)

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1. Because in most states you can teach on a Bachelor's degree and 

2. you said "maths"


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## anotherlife (Jul 12, 2019)

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I am sure that when I will get my bachelors majoring in maths, I will not be able to just walk into a school and tell them to give me a class to teach.  You need like a ton of other and very expensive qualification to be even considered.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 12, 2019)

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Sure, but we all know that once you wake the "sleeping giant", that is when the change really comes. You can affect some change with a loud minority. But then the "silent" majority starts waking up? Look out. 

It is happening for the schools--see the media report about the parents going to the school board.


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 12, 2019)

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I can't speak to how to qualify to teach in whatever nation you're living in. But you're dead wrong about needing a Master's Degree right out of the gate in many if not most states, and that's increasingly the case in this teacher shortage, and especially in math. Lots of places are granting emergency certificates and in those cases I'm not even sure the teachers have Bachelor's degrees in math.


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## anotherlife (Jul 12, 2019)

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I am a university student majoring in maths, and I could teach any high school maths class easily.  At university, higher degree students are allowed to teach classes for lower degrees.  If there are teacher shortages, then why can't I make a few bucks by teaching a high school class?  I don't mean the private tutoring gig that everyone does, but a proper high school class?  The skill set is the same.  But not allowed.  Very simple.  So I don't understand why this teacher shortage propaganda exists then?


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## Unkotare (Jul 12, 2019)

anotherlife said:


> ... those coushie teacher Union salaries....


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 12, 2019)

anotherlife said:


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Okay I don't know. Go speak to people in your own nation about your own certification requirements.


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## anotherlife (Jul 12, 2019)

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I was talking about the USA.  Schools are not worth much anyways and neither are teachers, in any country, if they don't teach New Testament studies.  What point is to a school if it can't tell you why it exists?


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## SweetSue92 (Jul 12, 2019)

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I highly doubt you can prescribe what is best for USA schools from a foreign nation. You clearly don't understand the way our schools work, for starters.


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## Unkotare (Jul 12, 2019)

anotherlife said:


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Study: America’s Teacher Shortage Is a Bigger Problem than Thought


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## anotherlife (Jul 12, 2019)

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Interesting.  Did you say American schools work?


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## Linda Griffith (Jul 22, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.
> 
> To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this material! You are completely right. My mother works as a teacher (but then she quit and started working online as a freelancer), and she also notices how parents send their children to school, and hope that they don’t need to do anything else. The only thing they can do is to make claims to the teacher. It is happening that some children are not wanted in the family at all. Then the question becomes - Why have a child that you do not need and in which you will not invest all your love and care?


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