# Sexual Orientation: What are it's causes?



## Cenotaph

This is somewhat inspired by Maxcha's thread, which... instead of arguing the morality (silly word) of homosexuality, we're arguing in what _causes_ it. 

Is it genetic, hormonal, or psychological... or possibly a combination of two or three? 

From the evidence I have seen, it seems to be pointing towards hormones. There have been specific twin studies over the past few years that examine sets of twins with differing sexual orientations. Each set of twins are genetically identical and have experienced (relatively) uniform environmental settings. If this is true, the "nurture" aspect of psychological development is omitted with just "nature" left... Since it's not genetic (in this instance), then maybe it's hormonal?

Here's what I can say with a definite answer:

Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
By the way, if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.


[youtube]IoZoRbP-0WM[/youtube] [youtube]WTLAof9oXCI[/youtube] [youtube]RGnZgC47SLA[/youtube]


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## Sunni Man

Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.


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## Cenotaph

Sunni Man said:


> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.



Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?


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## Amelia

Food for thought here:

Prenatal hormones and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







Edit: now that I've finished watching Cenotaph's videos I see that much of that link is redundant.  But maybe it's still interesting.


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## Ariux

Cenotaph said:


> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).



How do you know it's not a choice?   Other than you being too stupid to understand that something can be a choice without being as trivial and conscious as Coke vs. Pepsi?

What do you mean it occurs in many species?  Do you know of individuals of any non-human species that likes to cross-dress?  Do you know that animals are stupid?  Can you point to any documented example in the animal kingdom of healthy, wild animals totally avoiding heterosexual acts in favor of homosexual acts?

Identical twins go a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.  The failure to find genetic other congenital cause of homosexuality, after herculean effort, also goes a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.  

Do you think pedophiles are born-that-way?    

You're full of shit.


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## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
Click to expand...

Sure.

Homos who get their fudge packed have _*chosen* _to get it packed.

It's really that simple.


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## Peach

Ariux said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Identical twins go a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.  The failure to find genetic other congenital cause of homosexuality, after herculean effort, also goes a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.
> 
> Do you think pedophiles are born-that-way?
> 
> Do you know of individuals of any non-human species that likes to cross-dress?
> 
> Classic clueless CON.
Click to expand...


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## Ariux

Amelia said:


> Food for thought here:
> 
> Prenatal hormones and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I have a better theory.  Faggots have small dicks.  They're attracted to men because of Penis Envy.  And, also, they prefer the relatively tight and dry asshole because their dicks can't fill a big, wet pussy.


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## Peach

Ariux said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Food for thought here:
> 
> Prenatal hormones and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a better theory.
> 
> Time to buy a new wardrobe for your cat.
Click to expand...


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## Cenotaph

Ariux said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know it's not a choice?   Other than you being too stupid to understand that something can be a choice without being as trivial and conscious as Coke vs. Pepsi?
> 
> What do you mean it occurs in many species?  Do you know of individuals of any non-human species that likes to cross-dress?  Do you know that animals are stupid?  Can you point to any documented example in the animal kingdom of healthy, wild animals totally avoiding heterosexual acts in favor of homosexual acts?
> 
> Identical twins go a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.  The failure to find genetic other congenital cause of homosexuality, after herculean effort, also goes a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.
> 
> Do you think pedophiles are born-that-way?
> 
> You're full of shit.
Click to expand...


How do I know it's not a choice? I am gay myself. 

How do I know homosexuality occurs within other species of the animal kingdom? It occurs in penguins, dogs, bison, owls, beetles, whales, and numerous other organisms (too many to list). I would post a few links supporting this, but I do not have 15 or more posts, so... I am unable to. However, any quick research will show that I am correct.

If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes. 

Also, please refrain from antagonizing people in this thread. It exists to get away from the bullshit, not to continue it. (It also doesn't help your argument).



Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Homos who get their fudge packed have _*chosen* _to get it packed.
> 
> It's really that simple.
Click to expand...


So that's a "no."


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## Amelia

Cenotaph said:


> <snipped>
> 
> Also, please refrain from antagonizing people in this thread. It exists to get away from the bullshit, not to continue it. (It also doesn't help your argument).
> 
> <snipped>





You're talking to Ariux.



Ah, I see you're new.  Well, suffice it to say, you've just given Ariux a hardon by responding to his bait.  Now he'll troll you some more.


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## Cenotaph

On another note... I should have made the "it's" in the titled "its." That's going to bug the hell out of me.


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## Sunni Man

It doesn't take a scientific study to figure out. 

That it's a "choice" for two guys to pack each others fudge.

It's does not happen by accident.


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## Cenotaph

Sunni Man said:


> It doesn't take a scientific study to figure out.
> 
> That it's a "choice" for two guys to pack each others fudge.
> 
> It's does not happen by accident.



We're not discussing whether or not acting on homosexual urges is a choice, but whether or not homosexuality as a sexual orientation is (which it's not).


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## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> We're not discussing whether or not acting on homosexual urges is a choice, but whether or not homosexuality as a sexual orientation is (which it's not).


Actually, it's a self inflected mental illness.


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## Cenotaph

Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're not discussing whether or not acting on homosexual urges is a choice, but whether or not homosexuality as a sexual orientation is (which it's not).
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's a self inflected mental illness.
Click to expand...


Okay, and again... do you have any (valid) scientific evidence to support this claim?


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## Vidi

Heres the thing:

No one is 100% straight opr gay ( no matter what they say ) The data concerning prenatal hormones is interesting in that it shows us that we can be predisposed from birth to a certain orientation.

Lets say three people are born this way

Person A is predisposed 70% homosexual 30% straight
Person B is predisposed 50/50
Person C is predisposed 30% homosexual 70% straight.

Predisposition does not decide on the persons eventual sexual orientation. That comes from two other factors: Enviornment and finally choice.

Now some people will object to the choice factor but let me explain. One has to accept what they are in order to live their lives. In that sense, choice is a factor.

I think the reason theres such a strong debate on the subject is that there isnt a single cause but a combination of factors that lead to sexual orientation, both straight and homosexual.


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## Vidi

Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're not discussing whether or not acting on homosexual urges is a choice, but whether or not homosexuality as a sexual orientation is (which it's not).
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's a self inflected mental illness.
Click to expand...


absolutely untrue, man.

Go find out why men have nipples. Then rethink your stance.

Look I get that your religion says its a sin. So in order for it to be a sin, it HAS to be a choice, because something thats not in your control cannot be a sin, but you cant let your religion blind you to the science. 

When you do, youre taking the same stance as those who misrepresent Islam as a religion of hate and violence.


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## Cenotaph

Vidi said:


> Heres the thing:
> 
> No one is 100% straight opr gay ( no matter what they say ) The data concerning prenatal hormones is interesting in that it shows us that we can be predisposed from birth to a certain orientation.
> 
> Lets say three people are born this way
> 
> Person A is predisposed 70% homosexual 30% straight
> Person B is predisposed 50/50
> Person C is predisposed 30% homosexual 70% straight.
> 
> Predisposition does not decide on the persons eventual sexual orientation. That comes from two other factors: Enviornment and finally choice.
> 
> Now some people will object to the choice factor but let me explain. One has to accept what they are in order to live their lives. In that sense, choice is a factor.
> 
> I think the reason theres such a strong debate on the subject is that there isnt a single cause but a combination of factors that lead to sexual orientation, both straight and homosexual.



I have actually heard of this theory before, and another one similar to it in that sexuality "fluxuates" as a life progresses. 

I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...

EDIT: Forgot this: Again, I am sorry to repeat myself, but it is not about whether we accept what we are and make a choice (as you put it), but what we are dealt with in terms of the orientation itself. I did not choose to be attracted to guys. I just am. I _choose_ to date guys because my attraction to women is so minute and rare that it's almost nonexistent.


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## Sunni Man

Has zero to do with my religion.

What homos do is just plain nasty and perverted.

I wish it wasn't a choice and was genetic.

Because most homos don't breed.

So their abnormal gay gene would go extinct rather quickly.


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## Cenotaph

Sunni Man said:


> Has zero to do with my religion.
> 
> What homos do is just plain nasty and perverted.
> 
> I wish it wasn't a choice and was genetic.
> 
> Because most homos don't breed.
> 
> So their abnormal gay gene would go extinct rather quickly.



Let's say that homosexuality _is_ genetic. _If_ it is genetic, then the genes could still be carried within heterosexuals due to recessive genes (homosexuals wouldn't be the only ones).


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## Ariux

Cenotaph said:


> If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes.



Roy and Silo were in captivity, hardly natural conditions.  Roy and Silo never performed sex acts!  Boy and girl penguins look the same!   Silo (a male) eventually hooked up with a female name Scrappy! 

Is it representative of homosexual human male partners to never perform sex acts?  Are homosexual men too stupid to tell the difference between a male and a female?

Roy and Silo do not reflect human homosexuals.  But, you offer this example just as bullshit.


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## Vidi

Cenotaph said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heres the thing:
> 
> No one is 100% straight opr gay ( no matter what they say ) The data concerning prenatal hormones is interesting in that it shows us that we can be predisposed from birth to a certain orientation.
> 
> Lets say three people are born this way
> 
> Person A is predisposed 70% homosexual 30% straight
> Person B is predisposed 50/50
> Person C is predisposed 30% homosexual 70% straight.
> 
> Predisposition does not decide on the persons eventual sexual orientation. That comes from two other factors: Enviornment and finally choice.
> 
> Now some people will object to the choice factor but let me explain. One has to accept what they are in order to live their lives. In that sense, choice is a factor.
> 
> I think the reason theres such a strong debate on the subject is that there isnt a single cause but a combination of factors that lead to sexual orientation, both straight and homosexual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have actually heard of this theory before, and another one similar to it in that sexuality "fluxuates" as a life progresses.
> 
> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
Click to expand...


The hormonal release to change the female to male in utero ( we all start out female...hence men have nipples ) doesnt fire at exactly the "right" time. This leads to a 70% ( or more ) sexual preference predisposition. Those who say they have NEVER been attracted to a certain sex are ( in my opinion ) giving anedoctal evidence biased through the filter of their own psyche. Its not that they are lying. Its more that its not scientific in that its not provable. They cant possibly know every thoguht and desire theyve EVER had, even as a very young child. Such things simply arent accessible to us.

Like you said, you wanted science. Andectotal evidence is not science. 

Science is telling us that none of us are 100% anything.


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## Vidi

Ariux said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roy and Silo were in captivity, hardly natural conditions.  Roy and Silo never performed sex acts!  Boy and girl penguins look the same!   Silo (a male) eventually hooked up with a female name Scrappy!
> 
> Is it representative of homosexual human male partners to never perform sex acts?  Are homosexual men too stupid to tell the difference between a male and a female?
> 
> Roy and Silo do not reflect human homosexuals.  But, you offer this example just as bullshit.
Click to expand...


Please try not to comment on things that require logic, reason or any kind of thinking at all. Its not your strong suit.


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## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has zero to do with my religion.
> 
> What homos do is just plain nasty and perverted.
> 
> I wish it wasn't a choice and was genetic.
> 
> Because most homos don't breed.
> 
> So their abnormal gay gene would go extinct rather quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say that homosexuality _is_ genetic. _If_ it is genetic, then the genes could still be carried within heterosexuals due to recessive genes (homosexuals wouldn't be the only ones).
Click to expand...

If a homo gene was actually found. 

The people who carried the gene could be identified and chemically or physically neutered

Or locked up and isolated for the safety of normal people..


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## Peach

Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has zero to do with my religion.
> 
> What homos do is just plain nasty and perverted.
> 
> I wish it wasn't a choice and was genetic.
> 
> Because most homos don't breed.
> 
> So their abnormal gay gene would go extinct rather quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say that homosexuality _is_ genetic. _If_ it is genetic, then the genes could still be carried within heterosexuals due to recessive genes (homosexuals wouldn't be the only ones).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If a homo gene was actually found.
> 
> The people who carried the gene could be identified and chemically or physically neutered
> 
> Or locked up and isolated for the safety of normal people..
Click to expand...


If we knew what caused ignorance, you would be a lifer, that is certain.


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## Amelia

But seriously ... if I may get a word in between the spitballs  ...  that older brother effect which I just heard of for the first time this evening is pretty interesting to me.   I have one gay family member that I'm aware of.  He has four older brothers.  Pretty cool.  I should ask him if he is righthanded.


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## Vidi

Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has zero to do with my religion.
> 
> What homos do is just plain nasty and perverted.
> 
> I wish it wasn't a choice and was genetic.
> 
> Because most homos don't breed.
> 
> So their abnormal gay gene would go extinct rather quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say that homosexuality _is_ genetic. _If_ it is genetic, then the genes could still be carried within heterosexuals due to recessive genes (homosexuals wouldn't be the only ones).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If a homo gene was actually found.
> 
> The people who carried the gene could be identified and chemically or physically neutered
> 
> Or locked up and isolated for the safety of normal people..
Click to expand...


Now I have to question your grasp of genetics. You do realize that if its genetic, "gay" is not contagious right?

It could only be passesd to offspring...genetically. 

So youre saying that anyone found with this gene...even latent, should be seperated and sterilized. Even you?

as for your assertion that it is unnatural:



> "One fundamental premise in social debates has been that homosexuality is unnatural. This premise is wrong. Homosexuality is both common and highly essential in the lives of a number of species," explains Petter Boeckman, who is the academic advisor for the "Against Nature's Order?" exhibition.
> 
> 1,500 animal species practice homosexuality



Science again says no to your stance.


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## Sunni Man

The claim that 1,500 animal species practice homosexuality is pure BS

Just because two male or female animals of the same species pair up under stress to raise their young does not equal homosexuality.

And no animal consciously seeks out another of the same sex to have intercourse.

Only humans do that.


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## Ariux

Vidi said:


> Please try not to comment on things that require logic, reason or any kind of thinking at all. Its not your strong suit.



So say you, a shithead.  You think a couple of birds, in captivity, who've never engaged in any sex acts, are like a couple of fags.


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## Vidi

Ariux said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please try not to comment on things that require logic, reason or any kind of thinking at all. Its not your strong suit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So say you, a shithead.  You think a couple of birds, in captivity, who've never engaged in any sex acts, are like a couple of fags.
Click to expand...


No I think youre an idiot and anything you post is therefore idiotic. Its quite obvious that thinking is difficult for you and what little thinking you do is comprised of 2 + 2 equals starfish.


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## ABikerSailor

Vidi said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heres the thing:
> 
> No one is 100% straight opr gay ( no matter what they say ) The data concerning prenatal hormones is interesting in that it shows us that we can be predisposed from birth to a certain orientation.
> 
> Lets say three people are born this way
> 
> Person A is predisposed 70% homosexual 30% straight
> Person B is predisposed 50/50
> Person C is predisposed 30% homosexual 70% straight.
> 
> Predisposition does not decide on the persons eventual sexual orientation. That comes from two other factors: Enviornment and finally choice.
> 
> Now some people will object to the choice factor but let me explain. One has to accept what they are in order to live their lives. In that sense, choice is a factor.
> 
> I think the reason theres such a strong debate on the subject is that there isnt a single cause but a combination of factors that lead to sexual orientation, both straight and homosexual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have actually heard of this theory before, and another one similar to it in that sexuality "fluxuates" as a life progresses.
> 
> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The hormonal release to change the female to male in utero ( we all start out female...hence men have nipples ) doesnt fire at exactly the "right" time. This leads to a 70% ( or more ) sexual preference predisposition. Those who say they have NEVER been attracted to a certain sex are ( in my opinion ) giving anedoctal evidence biased through the filter of their own psyche. Its not that they are lying. Its more that its not scientific in that its not provable. They cant possibly know every thoguht and desire theyve EVER had, even as a very young child. Such things simply arent accessible to us.
> 
> Like you said, you wanted science. Andectotal evidence is not science.
> 
> Science is telling us that none of us are 100% anything.
Click to expand...


It also has something to do with how the brain is structured during development in utero.  Recent advances in brain mapping have been done by the Swiss............



> Scientists at the Karolinska Institute studied brain scans of 90 gay and straight men and women, and found that the size of the two symmetrical halves of the brains of gay men more closely resembled those of straight women than they did straight men. In heterosexual women, the two halves of the brain are more or less the same size. In heterosexual men, the right hemisphere is slightly larger. Scans of the brains of gay men in the study, however, showed that their hemispheres were relatively symmetrical, like those of straight women, while the brains of homosexual women were asymmetrical like those of straight men. The number of nerves connecting the two sides of the brains of gay men were also more like the number in heterosexual women than in straight men.
> 
> Just what these brain differences mean is still not clear. Ever since 1991, when Simon LeVay first documented differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight men, researchers have been struggling to understand what causes these differences to occur. Until now, the brain regions that scientists have come to believe play a role in sexual orientation have been related to either reproduction or sexuality. The Swedish study, however, is the first to find differences in parts of the brain not normally involved in reproduction  the denser network of nerve connections, for example, was found in the amygdala, known as the emotional center of the brain. "The big question has always been, if the brains of gay men are different, or feminized, as earlier research suggests," says Dr. Eric Vilain, professor of human genetics at University of California Los Angeles, "then is it just limited to sexual preference or are there other regions that are gender atypical in gay males? For the first time, in this study it looks like there are regions of the brain not directly involved in sexuality that seem to be feminized in gay males."
> 
> Vilain, who studies the genetic factors behind sexuality and sexual orientation, notes that it may turn out that the brains of gay men possess only some 'feminized' structures, while retaining some masculine ones, and this is reflected in how they act on their sexuality. "We know from studies that men, regardless of their sexual orientation, retain masculine characteristics when it comes to their sexual behavior," he says. Both gay and straight men, for example, tend to prefer younger partners, in contrast to women, who gravitate toward older partners. Most men are also more likely than women to engage in casual sex, and to be aroused by visual stimuli. "So I expect that some regions of the brain will remain masculine even in gay men," says Vilain. For something as complex as sexual orientation, it's no surprise that everything from genes to gender to environment may play a role in ultimately determining your perfect partner.
> 
> 
> Read more: What the Gay Brain Looks Like - TIME



And yeah..............it's backed by science.


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## Katzndogz

Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Homos who get their fudge packed have _*chosen* _to get it packed.
> 
> It's really that simple.
Click to expand...


Sexual orientation is not a choice, homosexual behavior is the choice that I think you mean.  

According to Mission Islam:

The common concept for Muslim homosexuals is to commit suicide since they can't be punished for being homosexuals in a non-Islamic state, but two wrongs don't make one right. While homosexuality is wrong, it doesn't justify suicide under any conditions or circumstances. Please know that if you ever commit suicide, you would have seriously misunderstood Islam and its spirit. If you were ever involved in sexual homosexual acts in the past, you should truly and sincerely repent to Allah, The Merciful, The Gracious, and pledge to Him never to get involved in any homosexual acts anymore. Please note that there is a difference to actually being involved in a homosexual act -which is a sin - from having sexual feelings that you try to control, that you don't express in public, which is not sinful if you try to control them. If medical or psychological counseling helps, then get it, but know that Allah is The Curer, and the Qur'an is your best companion. Give charity, pray, make dua', and Allah will not leave you alone. You have got to believe in the infinite amount of Mercy Allah provides to His servants, and you should also realize that He forgives, if He wishes, all types of sins, except the sin of disbelieving in Him. 

What is sinful in homosexuality is the actual sexual act between the couple of a similar sex. if you transform your desires into a struggle and a challenge to overcome it and not physically commit it, then insha'Allah, you will get the reward for it. 

Even islam recognizes that homosexuality itself is not a choice.


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## rdean

Gay man:






Straight man:






Gay man:






Straight man:


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## BDBoop

Validation, IMO.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe58_vd_5g4]Brain scan results - Making of Me: John Barrowman - BBC - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVwjCppq82c]Are we born straight or gay? - Making of Me: John Barrowman - BBC - YouTube[/ame]


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## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> This is somewhat inspired by Maxcha's thread, which... instead of arguing the morality (silly word) of homosexuality, we're arguing in what _causes_ it.
> 
> Is it genetic, hormonal, or psychological... or possibly a combination of two or three?
> 
> From the evidence I have seen, it seems to be pointing towards hormones. There have been specific twin studies over the past few years that examine sets of twins with differing sexual orientations. Each set of twins are genetically identical and have experienced (relatively) uniform environmental settings. If this is true, the "nurture" aspect of psychological development is omitted with just "nature" left... Since it's not genetic (in this instance), then maybe it's hormonal?
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> By the way, if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.
> 
> 
> [youtube]IoZoRbP-0WM[/youtube] [youtube]WTLAof9oXCI[/youtube] [youtube]RGnZgC47SLA[/youtube]



What definitive evidence do you have that it is not a choice? While anecdotal evidence exists where people claim they were always attracted to whatever they are attracted to that is far from conclusive, and there are people that claim to have made a choice. The only way sexual orientation can be proven to be not a choice is if you have conclusive evidence that people do not have free will, something I am willing to bet you do not have conclusive evidence on either side.


----------



## Sunni Man

Katzndogz said:


> Even islam recognizes that homosexuality itself is not a choice.


Muslims _Do Not_ believe in any way, shape, or form; that Allah creates homosexuals.  Period.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> How do I know it's not a choice? I am gay myself.



That, believe it or not, doesn't prove anything other than you do not remember making a choice. Tell me something, when did you choose your political orientation? Your favorite flavor of ice cream? Do you remember making those choices? Does that prove they are not choices?



Cenotaph said:


> How do I know homosexuality occurs within other species of the animal kingdom? It occurs in penguins, dogs, bison, owls, beetles, whales, and numerous other organisms (too many to list). I would post a few links supporting this, but I do not have 15 or more posts, so... I am unable to. However, any quick research will show that I am correct.
> 
> If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes.



Roy and Silo? The gay penguins that turned out to be straight?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/24/nyregion/24penguins.html?_r=1

You should pick better examples. Perhaps the truth is a lot more complicated that you like to pretend.



Cenotaph said:


> Also, please refrain from antagonizing people in this thread. It exists to get away from the bullshit, not to continue it. (It also doesn't help your argument).



If you don't like bullshit I suggest you stop posting on the Internet.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

ABikerSailor said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have actually heard of this theory before, and another one similar to it in that sexuality "fluxuates" as a life progresses.
> 
> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hormonal release to change the female to male in utero ( we all start out female...hence men have nipples ) doesnt fire at exactly the "right" time. This leads to a 70% ( or more ) sexual preference predisposition. Those who say they have NEVER been attracted to a certain sex are ( in my opinion ) giving anedoctal evidence biased through the filter of their own psyche. Its not that they are lying. Its more that its not scientific in that its not provable. They cant possibly know every thoguht and desire theyve EVER had, even as a very young child. Such things simply arent accessible to us.
> 
> Like you said, you wanted science. Andectotal evidence is not science.
> 
> Science is telling us that none of us are 100% anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It also has something to do with how the brain is structured during development in utero.  Recent advances in brain mapping have been done by the Swiss............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists at the Karolinska Institute studied brain scans of 90 gay and straight men and women, and found that the size of the two symmetrical halves of the brains of gay men more closely resembled those of straight women than they did straight men. In heterosexual women, the two halves of the brain are more or less the same size. In heterosexual men, the right hemisphere is slightly larger. Scans of the brains of gay men in the study, however, showed that their hemispheres were relatively symmetrical, like those of straight women, while the brains of homosexual women were asymmetrical like those of straight men. The number of nerves connecting the two sides of the brains of gay men were also more like the number in heterosexual women than in straight men.
> 
> Just what these brain differences mean is still not clear. Ever since 1991, when Simon LeVay first documented differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight men, researchers have been struggling to understand what causes these differences to occur. Until now, the brain regions that scientists have come to believe play a role in sexual orientation have been related to either reproduction or sexuality. The Swedish study, however, is the first to find differences in parts of the brain not normally involved in reproduction &#8212; the denser network of nerve connections, for example, was found in the amygdala, known as the emotional center of the brain. "The big question has always been, if the brains of gay men are different, or feminized, as earlier research suggests," says Dr. Eric Vilain, professor of human genetics at University of California Los Angeles, "then is it just limited to sexual preference or are there other regions that are gender atypical in gay males? For the first time, in this study it looks like there are regions of the brain not directly involved in sexuality that seem to be feminized in gay males."
> 
> Vilain, who studies the genetic factors behind sexuality and sexual orientation, notes that it may turn out that the brains of gay men possess only some 'feminized' structures, while retaining some masculine ones, and this is reflected in how they act on their sexuality. "We know from studies that men, regardless of their sexual orientation, retain masculine characteristics when it comes to their sexual behavior," he says. Both gay and straight men, for example, tend to prefer younger partners, in contrast to women, who gravitate toward older partners. Most men are also more likely than women to engage in casual sex, and to be aroused by visual stimuli. "So I expect that some regions of the brain will remain masculine even in gay men," says Vilain. For something as complex as sexual orientation, it's no surprise that everything from genes to gender to environment may play a role in ultimately determining your perfect partner.
> 
> 
> Read more: What the Gay Brain Looks Like - TIME
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yeah..............it's backed by science.
Click to expand...


Actually, it isn't. There exist zero evidence that brain development affects behavior.There is, however, evidence that behavior can affect the way certain brain diseases progress, which is evidence that behavior can affect brain development.


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag said:


> What definitive evidence do you have that it is not a choice? While anecdotal evidence exists where people claim they were always attracted to whatever they are attracted to that is far from conclusive, and there are people that claim to have made a choice. The only way sexual orientation can be proven to be not a choice is if you have conclusive evidence that people do not have free will, something I am willing to bet you do not have conclusive evidence on either side.



You don't really need scientific evidence to prove it's not a choice. If it _is_ a choice, then I ask those who identify themselves as heterosexuals to become aroused at those of the same sex.... (It's really as simple as that). However, if you _really_ feel that you meed this evidence, then I suggest you read this: Is it a Choice? The Science of Sexual Orientation

Also, I don't believe free will exists. It's merely an illusion. (Off-topic, I know).


----------



## Katzndogz

Sunni Man said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even islam recognizes that homosexuality itself is not a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims _Do Not_ believe in any way, shape, or form; that Allah creates homosexuals.  Period.
Click to expand...


I just explained it to you!

Read the link and expand your knowledge.  

If Allah did not create homosexuals there would not be mention of homosexuals in the Qu'ran!  So there were indeed homosexuals at the time of its writing.  

Below are some verses in the Quran that speak against homosexuality. Those people who make a god (ilah) of there own lusts are clearly in the wrong. Prophet Lut spoke against this evil practice of his people. Their only reply was: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth." They soon found out who was telling the truth when Allah destroyed them all. Let it be known right now that there is NO SUCH THING AS A GAY MUSLIM!!! A Muslim is one who submits himself to the will of Allah. Those who practice this evil have submitted themselves to their own desires and have turned their backs on the clear teachings of Islam. These people will use any kind of rationalization to justify their sinful practices. Be not deceived by the smooth tactics of Shaitan. He will try everything to guide us from the wrong way. 

If you have these homosexual desires in you seek refuge in Allah and Allah will help you. Allah has revealed the truth. All praise is for Allah!!! 

Verses From Qur'an: 

026.165-166 "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" 

027.055 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! 

029.028-29 And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth." 

Would Allah create the grossly ignorant?   Obviously so, like God, with the expectation that the observing individual would reject such leanings and struggle against their desires.

What you are saying is that homosexuality does not exist, it is a decision made individually.   For some, yes it is.  For others, not even close.  

This is from the article and it is a view that I personally share.

While we abhor acts of discrimination against individuals or groups, we also place a high value on discretion. The individual's right of choice is a fundamental value and necessary condition for each individual to be accountable to God for his/her own actions. God's guidance secures the balance between the individual's and societal rights. No one has a right to spy into the private lives and affairs of individuals. Even when these private affairs should incidentally be known, the admonition is to keep them private and protect those involved. 

However, when one openly declares one's sexual orientation, a private matter, and then demands special consideration because of it, we find this an affront to the society's well being. There are already safeguards and protections under the law against discrimination that includes heterosexuals and homosexuals. To demand further special rights and consideration based on how or who we have sex with, and claim it to be a civil rights issue, is ludicrous. To compare with and demand special protection as those who have been persecuted for their national origin, race, color, or creed and religious beliefs is baseless and has no historical or social justification or parallels. We will then have to accede similar special demands for protection and single out groups varying from those who want to have heterosexual relations to those who are left handed, when they are all currently protected under existing laws. We are committed to uphold the family unit and its values, and protection of it as a durable, proven, most important and socially viable nucleus of any society. There is a continual struggle and effort to maintain the balance between an individual's right and society's well being. We place a higher value on the society's well being than an individual's right to actively promote counter values that will ultimately damage the society at large. We therefore have a right to resist and ensure the protection of our values against such an onslaught. This resistance should never be an aggression against any individual or groups, but a firm and principled stand against the counter values being promoted, while promoting our values in a kinder and gentler fashion with conviction. We have, indeed, a duty to promote divine wisdom and values that will advance humanity and that have withstood the test of time.


----------



## Sunni Man

Katzndogz said:


> 026.165-166 "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
> 
> 027.055 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!
> 
> 029.028-29 And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth."


There is not one single thing in these verses that says or indicates that  Allah created homosexuals.    

Who ever wrote the article is just expressing a personal opinion which is totally unIslamic and wrong.


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag said:


> That, believe it or not, doesn't prove anything other than you do not remember making a choice. Tell me something, when did you choose your political orientation? Your favorite flavor of ice cream? Do you remember making those choices? Does that prove they are not choices?



It's silly to compare political orientation with food preference. Both are two completely different things.
Actually, food preferences are not a choice, but are determined by multiple factors. Sources: this and this
.


> You should pick better examples. Perhaps the truth is a lot more complicated that you like to pretend.


I'm rather certain someone (Vidi) has supplied a valid source that supports that homosexual behavior occurs in other species. Of course, if a source is not in agreement with your position in the argument, then you will find some way to discredit it.


> If you don't like bullshit I suggest you stop posting on the Internet.


Someone doesn't agree with you... Therefore  you feel the need to insult that someone. Kind of a chilidish way of reacting... don't you think?


----------



## Vidi

Sunni Man said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 026.165-166 "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
> 
> 027.055 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!
> 
> 029.028-29 And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth."
> 
> 
> 
> There is not one single thing in these verses that says or indicates that  Allah created homosexuals.
> 
> Who ever wrote the article is just expressing a personal opinion which is totally unIslamic and wrong.
Click to expand...


ahhh you want to have THAT debate?


----------



## Sunni Man

Vidi said:


> ahhh you want to have THAT debate?


Nothing to debate.

God doesn't create homos. Period.


----------



## Vidi

Quantum Windbag said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The hormonal release to change the female to male in utero ( we all start out female...hence men have nipples ) doesnt fire at exactly the "right" time. This leads to a 70% ( or more ) sexual preference predisposition. Those who say they have NEVER been attracted to a certain sex are ( in my opinion ) giving anedoctal evidence biased through the filter of their own psyche. Its not that they are lying. Its more that its not scientific in that its not provable. They cant possibly know every thoguht and desire theyve EVER had, even as a very young child. Such things simply arent accessible to us.
> 
> Like you said, you wanted science. Andectotal evidence is not science.
> 
> Science is telling us that none of us are 100% anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It also has something to do with how the brain is structured during development in utero.  Recent advances in brain mapping have been done by the Swiss............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists at the Karolinska Institute studied brain scans of 90 gay and straight men and women, and found that the size of the two symmetrical halves of the brains of gay men more closely resembled those of straight women than they did straight men. In heterosexual women, the two halves of the brain are more or less the same size. In heterosexual men, the right hemisphere is slightly larger. Scans of the brains of gay men in the study, however, showed that their hemispheres were relatively symmetrical, like those of straight women, while the brains of homosexual women were asymmetrical like those of straight men. The number of nerves connecting the two sides of the brains of gay men were also more like the number in heterosexual women than in straight men.
> 
> Just what these brain differences mean is still not clear. Ever since 1991, when Simon LeVay first documented differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight men, researchers have been struggling to understand what causes these differences to occur. Until now, the brain regions that scientists have come to believe play a role in sexual orientation have been related to either reproduction or sexuality. The Swedish study, however, is the first to find differences in parts of the brain not normally involved in reproduction &#8212; the denser network of nerve connections, for example, was found in the amygdala, known as the emotional center of the brain. "The big question has always been, if the brains of gay men are different, or feminized, as earlier research suggests," says Dr. Eric Vilain, professor of human genetics at University of California Los Angeles, "then is it just limited to sexual preference or are there other regions that are gender atypical in gay males? For the first time, in this study it looks like there are regions of the brain not directly involved in sexuality that seem to be feminized in gay males."
> 
> Vilain, who studies the genetic factors behind sexuality and sexual orientation, notes that it may turn out that the brains of gay men possess only some 'feminized' structures, while retaining some masculine ones, and this is reflected in how they act on their sexuality. "We know from studies that men, regardless of their sexual orientation, retain masculine characteristics when it comes to their sexual behavior," he says. Both gay and straight men, for example, tend to prefer younger partners, in contrast to women, who gravitate toward older partners. Most men are also more likely than women to engage in casual sex, and to be aroused by visual stimuli. "So I expect that some regions of the brain will remain masculine even in gay men," says Vilain. For something as complex as sexual orientation, it's no surprise that everything from genes to gender to environment may play a role in ultimately determining your perfect partner.
> 
> 
> Read more: What the Gay Brain Looks Like - TIME
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yeah..............it's backed by science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, it isn't. There exist zero evidence that brain development affects behavior.There is, however, evidence that behavior can affect the way certain brain diseases progress, which is evidence that behavior can affect brain development.
Click to expand...


actually....


Prenatal hormone exposure effects brain development | News | The Engineer

Prenatal exposure to endocrine disrupting chemicals: effects on behavioral development. | Mendeley

there is science that suggests otherwise.

hell even such factors as a fathers death during the pregnancy has been shown to effect the childs dvelopment:



> They found that subjects whose fathers had died before their child's birth had an increased risk of psychiatric disorders, including psychosis, compared with subjects whose fathers died during the first year of their child's life. The risk was greatest if the father's death occurred during the third, fifth, ninth, or tenth four-week period of gestation. Mednick et al. (1988) subsequently reported that a mother's exposure to influenza during gestation was associated with an increased risk of schizophrenia in her child. Only the middle trimester of gestation was associated with an increased risk of the disorder, leading Mednick et al. to suggest that "it is less the type than the timing of the disturbance during fetal neural development that is critical in determining risk for schizophrenia."
> http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v27/n2/full/1395839a.html



perhaps throwing a search term in google before you make such sweeping and absolute statements is a better course of action.


----------



## Big Black Dog

When I was born, the doctor told my mother that I was a boy.  When I got older my mother told me I was a boy.  Guess it must be true and I'd say I'm pretty well orientated to the fact that I'm a boy.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> What definitive evidence do you have that it is not a choice? While anecdotal evidence exists where people claim they were always attracted to whatever they are attracted to that is far from conclusive, and there are people that claim to have made a choice. The only way sexual orientation can be proven to be not a choice is if you have conclusive evidence that people do not have free will, something I am willing to bet you do not have conclusive evidence on either side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need scientific evidence to prove it's not a choice. If it _is_ a choice, then I ask those who identify themselves as heterosexuals to become aroused at those of the same sex.... (It's really as simple as that). However, if you _really_ feel that you meed this evidence, then I suggest you read this: Is it a Choice? The Science of Sexual Orientation
> 
> Also, I don't believe free will exists. It's merely an illusion. (Off-topic, I know).
Click to expand...


You don't need science, I do. 

Free will is not an illusion after all - life - 23 September 2009 - New Scientist


----------



## Vidi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> What definitive evidence do you have that it is not a choice? While anecdotal evidence exists where people claim they were always attracted to whatever they are attracted to that is far from conclusive, and there are people that claim to have made a choice. The only way sexual orientation can be proven to be not a choice is if you have conclusive evidence that people do not have free will, something I am willing to bet you do not have conclusive evidence on either side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need scientific evidence to prove it's not a choice. If it _is_ a choice, then I ask those who identify themselves as heterosexuals to become aroused at those of the same sex.... (It's really as simple as that). However, if you _really_ feel that you meed this evidence, then I suggest you read this: Is it a Choice? The Science of Sexual Orientation
> 
> Also, I don't believe free will exists. It's merely an illusion. (Off-topic, I know).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't need science, I do.
> 
> Free will is not an illusion after all - life - 23 September 2009 - New Scientist
Click to expand...


Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference. 

Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> It's silly to compare political orientation with food preference. Both are two completely different things.
> Actually, food preferences are not a choice, but are determined by multiple factors. Sources: this and this




Is it silly because doing so exposes your assertion that sexual preference is not a choice for the absurdity it actually is, or is it absurd because you have actual evidence that it is different?
Nothing in either of those sources says anything about food preference not being a choice.



Cenotaph said:


> I'm rather certain someone (Vidi) has supplied a valid source that supports that homosexual behavior occurs in other species. Of course, if a source is not in agreement with your position in the argument, then you will find some way to discredit it.


I could do that, or I could just point out how absurd it is to point out that two penguins are gay when one of them switched to being straight when the right female came along. That makes you the one that is discrediting a source you disagree with, all I am pointing out is that you don't have any fracking idea what you are talking about. The issue is not as simple as you think.




Cenotaph said:


> Someone doesn't agree with you... Therefore  you feel the need to insult that someone. Kind of a chilidish way of reacting... don't you think?



If you think it is childish why are you doing it?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Vidi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also has something to do with how the brain is structured during development in utero.  Recent advances in brain mapping have been done by the Swiss............
> 
> And yeah..............it's backed by science.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it isn't. There exist zero evidence that brain development affects behavior.There is, however, evidence that behavior can affect the way certain brain diseases progress, which is evidence that behavior can affect brain development.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> actually....
> 
> 
> Prenatal hormone exposure effects brain development | News | The Engineer
> 
> Prenatal exposure to endocrine disrupting chemicals: effects on behavioral development. | Mendeley
> 
> there is science that suggests otherwise.
> 
> hell even such factors as a fathers death during the pregnancy has been shown to effect the childs dvelopment:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They found that subjects whose fathers had died before their child's birth had an increased risk of psychiatric disorders, including psychosis, compared with subjects whose fathers died during the first year of their child's life. The risk was greatest if the father's death occurred during the third, fifth, ninth, or tenth four-week period of gestation. Mednick et al. (1988) subsequently reported that a mother's exposure to influenza during gestation was associated with an increased risk of schizophrenia in her child. Only the middle trimester of gestation was associated with an increased risk of the disorder, leading Mednick et al. to suggest that "it is less the type than the timing of the disturbance during fetal neural development that is critical in determining risk for schizophrenia."
> Glucocorticoid Hormones and Early Brain Development in Schizophrenia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> perhaps throwing a search term in google before you make such sweeping and absolute statements is a better course of action.
Click to expand...


A psychiatrist found that a father's prenatal death caused psychiatric disorders? Really? 



 Did either of those studies actually study the brain as it developed to see if the changes came before the behavior or after it? That is my point, the studies are inconclusive because the technolgy did not exist until recently to actually study the brain and its relationship to behavior. All we could do is look at the brain during an autopsy and see what it looked like then. That only counts as evidence if you want it to.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Vidi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need scientific evidence to prove it's not a choice. If it _is_ a choice, then I ask those who identify themselves as heterosexuals to become aroused at those of the same sex.... (It's really as simple as that). However, if you _really_ feel that you meed this evidence, then I suggest you read this: Is it a Choice? The Science of Sexual Orientation
> 
> Also, I don't believe free will exists. It's merely an illusion. (Off-topic, I know).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need science, I do.
> 
> Free will is not an illusion after all - life - 23 September 2009 - New Scientist
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference.
> 
> Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.
Click to expand...


My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?


----------



## Vidi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need science, I do.
> 
> Free will is not an illusion after all - life - 23 September 2009 - New Scientist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference.
> 
> Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
Click to expand...


ahhhh the change up accompanied by the back off. Didnt you post:



> There exist zero evidence that brain development affects behavior.



So you just throw stuff out there and see what sticks huh?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Vidi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference.
> 
> Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ahhhh the change up accompanied by the back off. Didnt you post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There exist zero evidence that brain development affects behavior.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you just throw stuff out there and see what sticks huh?
Click to expand...


I did not change my position, here is my first post in this thread where I stated my position.



Quantum Windbag said:


> What definitive evidence do you have that it is not a choice? While  anecdotal evidence exists where people claim they were always attracted  to whatever they are attracted to that is far from conclusive, and there  are people that claim to have made a choice. The only way sexual  orientation can be proven to be not a choice is if you have conclusive  evidence that people do not have free will, something I am willing to  bet you do not have conclusive evidence on either side.



Then you try to call me for repeating it?

Yes, I did say there is no evidence that brain development affects behavior. I will take the time here to point out that that statement does not even begin to contradict my position that there is no evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice.

I have a suggestion, go back to arguing with Sunni, you have a better chance of not looking stupid.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Quantum Windbag said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need science, I do.
> 
> Free will is not an illusion after all - life - 23 September 2009 - New Scientist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference.
> 
> Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
Click to expand...


The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.


Wow, man that's deep.

Sounds like a double bong hit answer.


----------



## Cenotaph

ABikerSailor said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference.
> 
> Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
Click to expand...


They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.


----------



## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.
Click to expand...

LOL, dumb and dumber meet and agree.


----------



## Cenotaph

Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL, dumb and dumber meet and agree.
Click to expand...


Says the person who was ignorant of dominant and recessive genes.


----------



## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, dumb and dumber meet and agree.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Says the person who was ignorant of dominant and recessive genes.
Click to expand...

Yea, right!!


----------



## Quantum Windbag

ABikerSailor said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Youre making a fairly large leap there. From moving your finger to sexual preference.
> 
> Youre going to need more than that to back up your statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
Click to expand...


That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.
Click to expand...


I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.


----------



## Vidi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ahhhh the change up accompanied by the back off. Didnt you post:
> 
> So you just throw stuff out there and see what sticks huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did not change my position, here is my first post in this thread where I stated my position.
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> What definitive evidence do you have that it is not a choice? While  anecdotal evidence exists where people claim they were always attracted  to whatever they are attracted to that is far from conclusive, and there  are people that claim to have made a choice. The only way sexual  orientation can be proven to be not a choice is if you have conclusive  evidence that people do not have free will, something I am willing to  bet you do not have conclusive evidence on either side.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you try to call me for repeating it?
> 
> Yes, I did say there is no evidence that brain development affects behavior. I will take the time here to point out that that statement does not even begin to contradict my position that there is no evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice.
> 
> I have a suggestion, go back to arguing with Sunni, you have a better chance of not looking stupid.
Click to expand...


I concede that I missed your first post and mistook the one I quoted as your first foray into that line of reasoning.

I still completely disagree with your line of reasoning, so allow me to take a different tact in this discussion.

We are discovering new things all the time about what factors go into our personalities all the time. One of the links I provided even shows eveidence that the death of the father during pregnancy can possibly lead to a higher risk of schizophrenia. 

Are you married? if so, why did you choose your wife? Was she a surrogate for a specific preference imprinted on your psyche in early childhood? Do you know? Can you possibly know? 

Why do I stick my tongue out just a little bit when Im concentrating really hard, just like my father...is it genetic? or a learned subconscious response? Do you know?

Are you SURE?

Because unless youre absolutely POSITIVE, which based on your own assertion that there is no concrete conclusive evidence that its a choice or not, would make you either incredibly arrogant or God himself, then what gives YOU the right to deny the rights of others?

PS still love your name.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Quantum Windbag said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> My position is that there exists no conclusive evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice, why do I need more evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.
Click to expand...


Actually, I DO believe in evolution.  I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.

But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.

You fear the most what you understand the least.


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.
Click to expand...


As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?

EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science _would_ play a part in it.


----------



## Cenotaph

ABikerSailor said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, I DO believe in evolution.  I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.
> 
> But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.
> 
> You fear the most what you understand the least.
Click to expand...


For the record, Quantum Windbag has yet to make any references to religious dogma.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Vidi said:


> I concede that I missed your first post and mistook the one I quoted as your first foray into that line of reasoning.
> 
> I still completely disagree with your line of reasoning, so allow me to take a different tact in this discussion.



I do not have a line of reasoning, I have a position that is based on the current understanding of science and a deep cynicism of the attempt of researchers who have an agenda using skewed data to prove non existent correlations.

The Neurocritic: Voodoo Correlations in Social Neuroscience



Vidi said:


> We are discovering new things all the time about what factors go into our personalities all the time. One of the links I provided even shows eveidence that the death of the father during pregnancy can possibly lead to a higher risk of schizophrenia.



Stress during pregnancy drives babies crazy. Did the study include case studies of the same baby without said stress? If not, they are jumping to conclusions based on wishful thinking.



Vidi said:


> Are you married? if so, why did you choose your wife? Was she a surrogate for a specific preference imprinted on your psyche in early childhood? Do you know? Can you possibly know?



Yes, I can know, because I have free will.



Vidi said:


> Why do I stick my tongue out just a little bit when Im concentrating really hard, just like my father...is it genetic? or a learned subconscious response? Do you know?



No.



Vidi said:


> Are you SURE?



100%



Vidi said:


> Because unless youre absolutely POSITIVE, which based on your own assertion that there is no concrete conclusive evidence that its a choice or not, would make you either incredibly arrogant or God himself, then what gives YOU the right to deny the rights of others?



How is me knowing denying anyone anything?



Vidi said:


> PS still love your name.



Thanks.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

ABikerSailor said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, I DO believe in evolution.  I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.
> 
> But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.
> 
> You fear the most what you understand the least.
Click to expand...


Why do you believe in evolution? Can you defend your belief against someone who knows enough about the science to point out the flaws in your logic? You certainly can't defend your belief that homosexuality is not a choice because any competent scientist would tell you that the answer is unknowable at this point. There is no credible evidence that we do not choose our sexuality, and there are people that know when they made a choice. Until science gets more advanced all you have is a belief in the people who say something you agree with, which makes you as ignorant and useless in discussing the issue as the people who think that humans were created as they are today.

Like it or not, you are a religious bigot.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to think otherwise, and that by doing so they (think they) are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science _would_ play a part in it.
Click to expand...


I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Quantum Windbag said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like the argument an immature asshole who thinks that evolution is a lie would post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I DO believe in evolution.  I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.
> 
> But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.
> 
> You fear the most what you understand the least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you believe in evolution? Can you defend your belief against someone who knows enough about the science to point out the flaws in your logic? You certainly can't defend your belief that homosexuality is not a choice because any competent scientist would tell you that the answer is unknowable at this point. There is no credible evidence that we do not choose our sexuality, and there are people that know when they made a choice. Until science gets more advanced all you have is a belief in the people who say something you agree with, which makes you as ignorant and useless in discussing the issue as the people who think that humans were created as they are today.
> 
> Like it or not, you are a religious bigot.
Click to expand...


Actually, because I don't have an advanced degree in neuroscience, when the people who actually ARE neuroscientists and biologists publish their results, with the evidence to back them up, I tend to believe them.

Not some anonymous asshole on a messageboard, because you have nothing to link to.

As far as being a "religious bigot"?  Really?  Because if that's your stance, you obviously have not read how I really don't like dogmatic people of ANY stripe, especially Christians.

As far as my belief systems?  I like to study Tao, as well as Judaic theology, because it helps me to see where others have bastardized the words of Yeshua.


----------



## Vidi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science _would_ play a part in it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
Click to expand...


I wouldnt be surprised if everyone has tendencies, especially those that deny it the most hehe.

That goes back to the hormones in the womb again though. And why men have nipples...because we all start off female in the womb or rather we start off "undetermined' then the hormones hit and decide our gender for us. Its now being theorized that WHEN those hormones hit can be a factor in our disposition towards sexual preference.


----------



## Flopper

I have seen no creditable evidence to even suggest that homosexuality is a choice.  Although I'm not gay I had a family member who was and also several friends.  Anyone that would suggest that a kid would choose to be gay and suffer the taunts and humiliation dumped on him by classmates, is just plain stupid.  My cousin killed himself at age 16 because he could not stand being hated by his classmates.  He left a letter to his dad and mom asking for them to forgive him for being the way he was.


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science _would_ play a part in it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
Click to expand...


Okay, then here are two questions:
1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure? 
2.) How can they be heterosexual if they _are_ attracted to those of the same gender?

Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is _not_ a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it _is_ a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).

Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?


----------



## koshergrl

Cenotaph said:


> Ariux said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know it's not a choice?   Other than you being too stupid to understand that something can be a choice without being as trivial and conscious as Coke vs. Pepsi?
> 
> What do you mean it occurs in many species?  Do you know of individuals of any non-human species that likes to cross-dress?  Do you know that animals are stupid?  Can you point to any documented example in the animal kingdom of healthy, wild animals totally avoiding heterosexual acts in favor of homosexual acts?
> 
> Identical twins go a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.  The failure to find genetic other congenital cause of homosexuality, after herculean effort, also goes a long way in refuting the born-that-way hypothesis.
> 
> Do you think pedophiles are born-that-way?
> 
> You're full of shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do I know it's not a choice? I am gay myself.
> 
> How do I know homosexuality occurs within other species of the animal kingdom? It occurs in penguins, dogs, bison, owls, beetles, whales, and numerous other organisms (too many to list). I would post a few links supporting this, but I do not have 15 or more posts, so... I am unable to. However, any quick research will show that I am correct.
> 
> If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes.
> 
> Also, please refrain from antagonizing people in this thread. It exists to get away from the bullshit, not to continue it. (It also doesn't help your argument).
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Homos who get their fudge packed have _*chosen* _to get it packed.
> 
> It's really that simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So that's a "no."
Click to expand...


And you're wrong.

I've no doubt you've convinced yourself you have no control over your behavior. But you do. You just don't chose to exert it.


----------



## koshergrl

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science _would_ play a part in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, then here are two questions:
> 1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
> 2.) How can they be heterosexual if they _are_ attracted to those of the same gender?
> 
> Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is _not_ a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it _is_ a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).
> 
> Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?
Click to expand...


""As you can tell, I am very annoyed about this issue. Why cant it be a  choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems were just ceding this  point to bigots who are demanding it, and I dont think that they  should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I  was walking around in a cloud and didnt realize I was gay, which I find  really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it  offensive to all the men Ive been out with.

How Would Cynthia Nixon's "I Chose Homosexuality" Statements Play In Court?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUJxXrKrUzw]I CHOOSE to be Gay - YouTube[/ame]

This one is a kid wearing braces, and he "chooses" to be gay.

Nice parenting:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmgAvufOjvM]Why I chose to be gay (Jan12&#39;12) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Quantum Windbag

ABikerSailor said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I DO believe in evolution.  I also believe that a person's sexual orientation is pretty much determined in the womb.
> 
> But.............then again..............I'm willing to listen to new advances in scientific discovery rather than bitterly clinging to dogma that allows me to hate someone different from me.
> 
> You fear the most what you understand the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you believe in evolution? Can you defend your belief against someone who knows enough about the science to point out the flaws in your logic? You certainly can't defend your belief that homosexuality is not a choice because any competent scientist would tell you that the answer is unknowable at this point. There is no credible evidence that we do not choose our sexuality, and there are people that know when they made a choice. Until science gets more advanced all you have is a belief in the people who say something you agree with, which makes you as ignorant and useless in discussing the issue as the people who think that humans were created as they are today.
> 
> Like it or not, you are a religious bigot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, because I don't have an advanced degree in neuroscience, when the people who actually ARE neuroscientists and biologists publish their results, with the evidence to back them up, I tend to believe them.
> 
> Not some anonymous asshole on a messageboard, because you have nothing to link to.
> 
> As far as being a "religious bigot"?  Really?  Because if that's your stance, you obviously have not read how I really don't like dogmatic people of ANY stripe, especially Christians.
> 
> As far as my belief systems?  I like to study Tao, as well as Judaic theology, because it helps me to see where others have bastardized the words of Yeshua.
Click to expand...


Neuroscientists and biologists don't have the answers. The simple truth is, at this point, we don't know what causes anything. There is a correlation between brain structure and sexual preferences, but no one knows what the cause is. there are a bunch of psychologists that assume that the brain structure causes the sexual choice, but we do not know that. You are not relying on science, you just think you are. 

When I start bastardizing Y'shua's words feel free to call me on it. Until them, keep your fracking trap shut because you don't know half as much as you think you do.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Vidi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science _would_ play a part in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wouldnt be surprised if everyone has tendencies, especially those that deny it the most hehe.
> 
> That goes back to the hormones in the womb again though. And why men have nipples...because we all start off female in the womb or rather we start off "undetermined' then the hormones hit and decide our gender for us. Its now being theorized that WHEN those hormones hit can be a factor in our disposition towards sexual preference.
Click to expand...


We don't know what influences anything, my position is unchanged.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Flopper said:


> I have seen no creditable evidence to even suggest that homosexuality is a choice.  Although I'm not gay I had a family member who was and also several friends.  Anyone that would suggest that a kid would choose to be gay and suffer the taunts and humiliation dumped on him by classmates, is just plain stupid.  My cousin killed himself at age 16 because he could not stand being hated by his classmates.  He left a letter to his dad and mom asking for them to forgive him for being the way he was.



What credible evidence do you have that it is not a choice? I know a kid that got taunted for being gay even though he wasn't, does that prove anything?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, then here are two questions:
> 1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
> 2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?
> 
> Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).
> 
> Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?
Click to expand...




I never said it was a choice, I keep pointing out that you cannot prove it is not.
How can you be gay if you are attracted to some women?



Cenotaph said:


> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my  life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking  on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be  believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim  to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...




I think the person with the problem here is you, sexuality is obviously more complicated than you are trying to portray it.


As for your psychological question, consider this.


Sexual Masochism | Psychology Today


----------



## Cenotaph

There is no valid, conclusive scientific evidence supporting what causes sexual orientation.

This is currently my opinion after having participated in and  observed this debate (as well as multiple others). I have also done quite a bit of (recent) research on my own too.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> There is no valid, conclusive scientific evidence supporting what causes sexual orientation.
> 
> This is currently my opinion after having participated in and  observed this debate (as well as multiple others). I have also done quite a bit of (recent) research on my own too.



Congratulations, you just learned that you don't know something. That makes you a lot smarter than the average person who doesn't understand that.


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, then here are two questions:
> 1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
> 2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?
> 
> Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).
> 
> Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it was a choice, I keep pointing out that you cannot prove it is not.
> How can you be gay if you are attracted to some women?
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my  life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking  on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be  believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim  to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I think the person with the problem here is you, sexuality is obviously more complicated than you are trying to portray it.
> 
> 
> As for your psychological question, consider this.
> 
> 
> Sexual Masochism | Psychology Today
Click to expand...


Okay, I am done arguing about the rest of this debate. You are (currently) correct about there not being any valid and conclusive scientific evidence supporting the causes for sexual orientation. I was, as you previously stating, twisting science to support my personal beliefs. However, I want to know how masochism would be the reason for people choosing to be gay. Surely those who identify themselves as homosexual are not all masochists?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, then here are two questions:
> 1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
> 2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?
> 
> Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).
> 
> Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it was a choice, I keep pointing out that you cannot prove it is not.
> How can you be gay if you are attracted to some women?
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my  life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking  on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be  believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim  to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I think the person with the problem here is you, sexuality is obviously more complicated than you are trying to portray it.
> 
> 
> As for your psychological question, consider this.
> 
> 
> Sexual Masochism | Psychology Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, I am done arguing about the rest of this debate. You are (currently) correct about there not being any valid and conclusive scientific evidence supporting the causes for sexual orientation. I was, as you previously stating, twisting science to support my personal beliefs. However, I want to know how masochism would be the reason for people choosing to be gay. Surely those who identify themselves as homosexual are not all masochists?
Click to expand...


I did not say that they were, I just want you to consider it. The simple fact is that people get bullied for all sorts of reasons. I got bullied for being a geek, and I definitely chose being a geek over being an athlete. I was one of the strongest kids in my school, loved to run through the dessert on my way to and from school, and could hold my own in a fight. None of that prevented other kids from bullying me. Those kids are not being bullied because they are gay, they are being bullied because kids are bullies. 

Life sucks, shit happens.


----------



## rdean

rdean said:


> Gay man:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Straight man:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gay man:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Straight man:



I wonder what these studies are saying when they look at gay macho's.  Then you compare them to swishy and delicate men like Michelle Bachmann's husband and Paul Ryan.


----------



## gxnelson

Based on personal observation I think for some it is a choice and for others it's biological. 

Case 1: 
Someone I know was brought up by a gay couple. He dated girls for a while, but decided he dug boys. From what I could tell this was his choice. I think he liked girls, but just decided he wanted to give guys a try. Now I haven't talked to him in several years so I have no idea whether or not he still is into guys or not. But that, to me, is a choice. 

Case 2: 
One of my friends was brought up in a Catholic household. He went to church every Sunday and his family was very religious. I was one of the first people he came out to. He told me he was very worried about telling his family because they saw it as a sin. He didn't tell them for a long time out of that fear. Now, if he was really that afraid it being a sin, as his family and church so firmly believed, how could anyone make that choice to be gay? 

Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.


----------



## Sunni Man

gxnelson said:


> Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.


Why do you hang around soo many perverts?


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.


 

So you are CHOOSING not to be a homo, then?

Does your wife know that you're living a lie?


----------



## 52ndStreet

Sunni Man said:


> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.



Agreed, a sick pathetic choice, to allow a Homosexual demon from another dimension to take over 
your sexual preference.

It may also be of demonic origin.


----------



## Cenotaph

52ndStreet said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, a sick pathetic choice, to allow a Homosexual demon from another dimension to take over
> your sexual preference.
> 
> It may also be of demonic origin.
Click to expand...


You truly are hilarious. I'm not saying this to be condescending _at all_. I honestly think this is the funniest comment I have read on this website.


----------



## gxnelson

Sunni Man said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you hang around soo many perverts?
Click to expand...


Waiting for an intelligent response.


----------



## Flopper

gxnelson said:


> Based on personal observation I think for some it is a choice and for others it's biological.
> 
> Case 1:
> Someone I know was brought up by a gay couple. He dated girls for a while, but decided he dug boys. From what I could tell this was his choice. I think he liked girls, but just decided he wanted to give guys a try. Now I haven't talked to him in several years so I have no idea whether or not he still is into guys or not. But that, to me, is a choice.
> 
> Case 2:
> One of my friends was brought up in a Catholic household. He went to church every Sunday and his family was very religious. I was one of the first people he came out to. He told me he was very worried about telling his family because they saw it as a sin. He didn't tell them for a long time out of that fear. Now, if he was really that afraid it being a sin, as his family and church so firmly believed, how could anyone make that choice to be gay?
> 
> Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.


Being gay is not a choice.  Living a gay life style is.  A person can no more chose their sexual orientation than they can chose their skin color.  

Society has always shunned or punished those that are different, be it sexual orientation, race, religion, or physical appearance because we fear the abnormal and embrace the normal.  So for centuries, people have hidden who they are in order to fit into society.  Now with the acceptance of individual freedoms, people feel they don't have to hide who they are just fit into society.


----------



## koshergrl

Gays all over disgree with you, and insist they choose to be gay. All gays, or even a majority of them, are not born that way, and there's absolutely no evidence they are. Despite the desperate attempts by the homosexual lobby to make it look like it is.


----------



## Flopper

koshergrl said:


> Gays all over disgree with you, and insist they choose to be gay. All gays, or even a majority of them, are not born that way, and there's absolutely no evidence they are. Despite the desperate attempts by the homosexual lobby to make it look like it is.


When people say they choose to be gay they mean they choose a gay life style, to come out of the closet and be themselves.  You can't choose to like what you dislike or to love what you do not love.  People simply are not made that way.


----------



## geauxtohell

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
Click to expand...


In fairness, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that it is genetic.

Though I suspect that one day we will discover that it is. Complex polygenic pathway.

When that happens, bigots will no longer be able to hide behind the guise of their hatred being acceptable because it's a "choice".


----------



## koshergrl

We're hardwired to like sex. That doesn't mean we are obligated to act on every sexual urge. Gayness isn't hardwired, isn't genetic, but it doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> We're hardwired to like sex. That doesn't mean we are obligated to act on every sexual urge. Gayness isn't hardwired, isn't genetic, but it doesn't matter anyway.



In your opinion, "gayness yadda, yadda, yadda"

Most people with two frontal lobes would disagree.


----------



## gxnelson

koshergrl said:


> Gays all over disgree with you, and insist they choose to be gay. All gays, or even a majority of them, are not born that way, and there's absolutely no evidence they are. Despite the desperate attempts by the homosexual lobby to make it look like it is.



Where's your evidence?


----------



## koshergrl

Of what? I already posted evidence that there are gays who state adamantly that they are gay by choice.


----------



## gxnelson

right 3 vids, but you claim that it is every person who says they are gay. I could easily find 10 videos of gay people who say that it is biological for every 3 you find. 

But where is the evidence where it is every gay person as you say.


----------



## koshergrl

*yawn*.

Can't prove a negative. Back up your claim that all gays are born that way.


----------



## gxnelson

I never said it was purely biological, but it is idiotic to think it is only a choice as you say. 

You are the one making these claims where it is only choice, I want to see your evidence where it is true. Unless you want to admit you were lying when you said that.


----------



## geauxtohell

gxnelson said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gays all over disgree with you, and insist they choose to be gay. All gays, or even a majority of them, are not born that way, and there's absolutely no evidence they are. Despite the desperate attempts by the homosexual lobby to make it look like it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where's your evidence?
Click to expand...


Her opinion.  What more do you need?


----------



## Sunni Man

gxnelson said:


> right 3 vids, but you claim that it is every person who says they are gay. I could easily find 10 videos of gay people who say that it is biological for every 3 you find.


Both homos and child molesters claim that it's Not a "choice" that they were born that way.

So if being homo is biological and they can't help it. 

Then being a pedophile is also biological; because after all, they say it's not a choice.


----------



## gxnelson

Sunni Man said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> right 3 vids, but you claim that it is every person who says they are gay. I could easily find 10 videos of gay people who say that it is biological for every 3 you find.
> 
> 
> 
> Both homos and child molesters claim that it's Not a "choice" that they were born that way.
> 
> So if being homo is biological and they can't help it.
> 
> Then being a pedophile is also biological; because after all, they say it's not a choice.
Click to expand...


The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated. 

But when it comes to being gay, when it is not a choice, it is up to the partners to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity. That's the difference.


----------



## koshergrl

geauxtohell said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're hardwired to like sex. That doesn't mean we are obligated to act on every sexual urge. Gayness isn't hardwired, isn't genetic, but it doesn't matter anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In your opinion, "gayness yadda, yadda, yadda"
> 
> Most people with two frontal lobes would disagree.
Click to expand...


Ad hominem, irrelevant, and untrue.

Truth is not subjective. It doesn't matter what people think.


----------



## Sunni Man

gxnelson said:


> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.


The same argument was used against the homos just a few years ago.

Now being a homo is considered normal.

Pedophiles say that it's not a "choice" sames as the homos.

Thus, there is No difference between homosexuality and pedophelia.


----------



## gxnelson

Sunni Man said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
> 
> 
> 
> The same argument was used against the homos just a few years ago.
> 
> Now being a homo is considered normal.
> 
> Pedophiles say that it's not a "choice" sames as the homos.
> 
> Thus, there is No difference between homosexuality and pedophelia.
Click to expand...


Interesting how you cut out the second half of my post.....

But also, when anyone, I don't care who you are, rapes another human, then they should be thrown into jail. 

Pedophiles are capable of having normal sexual relations, but we don't punish them because of that. We punish them because they rape young kids. 

If a homosexual were to do the same, I say by all means throw their ass in jail. But it's utterly ridiculous to think that gay people are incapable of having consensual sex.


----------



## Sunni Man

gxnelson said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
> 
> 
> 
> The same argument was used against the homos just a few years ago.
> 
> Now being a homo is considered normal.
> 
> Pedophiles say that it's not a "choice" sames as the homos.
> 
> Thus, there is No difference between homosexuality and pedophelia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interesting how you cut out the second half of my post.....
Click to expand...

People who have sex with animals say that it's not a "choice" either.

Just saying


----------



## gxnelson

Sunni Man said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same argument was used against the homos just a few years ago.
> 
> Now being a homo is considered normal.
> 
> Pedophiles say that it's not a "choice" sames as the homos.
> 
> Thus, there is No difference between homosexuality and pedophelia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how you cut out the second half of my post.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who have sex with animals say that it's not a "choice" either.
> 
> Just saying
Click to expand...




> But also, when anyone, I don't care who you are, rapes another human, then they should be thrown into jail.
> 
> Pedophiles are capable of having normal sexual relations, but we don't punish them because of that. We punish them because they rape young kids.
> 
> If a homosexual were to do the same, I say by all means throw their ass in jail. But it's utterly ridiculous to think that gay people are incapable of having consensual sex.



And that animal has a choice in the matter????


----------



## Sunni Man

gxnelson said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how you cut out the second half of my post.....
> 
> 
> 
> People who have sex with animals say that it's not a "choice" either.
> 
> Just saying
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But also, when anyone, I don't care who you are, rapes another human, then they should be thrown into jail.
> 
> Pedophiles are capable of having normal sexual relations, but we don't punish them because of that. We punish them because they rape young kids.
> 
> If a homosexual were to do the same, I say by all means throw their ass in jail. But it's utterly ridiculous to think that gay people are incapable of having consensual sex.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And that animal has a choice in the matter????
Click to expand...

What if the animal likes it?

Why should they be prevented for expressing their love or getting married??

After all, it's Not a "choice" but biological.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Flopper said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on personal observation I think for some it is a choice and for others it's biological.
> 
> Case 1:
> Someone I know was brought up by a gay couple. He dated girls for a while, but decided he dug boys. From what I could tell this was his choice. I think he liked girls, but just decided he wanted to give guys a try. Now I haven't talked to him in several years so I have no idea whether or not he still is into guys or not. But that, to me, is a choice.
> 
> Case 2:
> One of my friends was brought up in a Catholic household. He went to church every Sunday and his family was very religious. I was one of the first people he came out to. He told me he was very worried about telling his family because they saw it as a sin. He didn't tell them for a long time out of that fear. Now, if he was really that afraid it being a sin, as his family and church so firmly believed, how could anyone make that choice to be gay?
> 
> Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Being gay is not a choice.  Living a gay life style is.  A person can no more chose their sexual orientation than they can chose their skin color.
> 
> Society has always shunned or punished those that are different, be it sexual orientation, race, religion, or physical appearance because we fear the abnormal and embrace the normal.  So for centuries, people have hidden who they are in order to fit into society.  Now with the acceptance of individual freedoms, people feel they don't have to hide who they are just fit into society.
Click to expand...


Does that mean that everyone who says they made a choice about being gay or straight are lying? Or does it actually mean you are trying to dominate the discussion and impose your views on others?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

geauxtohell said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In fairness, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that it is genetic.
> 
> Though I suspect that one day we will discover that it is. Complex polygenic pathway.
> 
> When that happens, bigots will no longer be able to hide behind the guise of their hatred being acceptable because it's a "choice".
Click to expand...


That is the most idiotic thing that has been said in this entire thread, and I am actually aware of the comments about demonic possession. No one is hiding behind the belief it is a choice to hide anything, the people that hate will continue to hate even if you give them proof that they are wrong because hate is not based on information and is only subject to logic if the person who hates chooses to learn. Maybe you should try thinking instead of spouting talking points like an idiot.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

geauxtohell said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're hardwired to like sex. That doesn't mean we are obligated to act on every sexual urge. Gayness isn't hardwired, isn't genetic, but it doesn't matter anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In your opinion, "gayness yadda, yadda, yadda"
> 
> Most people with two frontal lobes would disagree.
Click to expand...


Being that you don't even have one that works how would you know what people with two think?


----------



## BDBoop

Quantum Windbag said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fairness, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that it is genetic.
> 
> Though I suspect that one day we will discover that it is. Complex polygenic pathway.
> 
> When that happens, bigots will no longer be able to hide behind the guise of their hatred being acceptable because it's a "choice".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is the most idiotic thing that has been said in this entire thread, and I am actually aware of the comments about demonic possession. No one is hiding behind the belief it is a choice to hide anything, the people that hate will continue to hate even if you give them proof that they are wrong because hate is not based on information and is only subject to logic if the person who hates chooses to learn. Maybe you should try thinking instead of spouting talking points like an idiot.
Click to expand...


Gracious, Mr. Crabby Pants. I didn't know you could step out of Spock-mode.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

gxnelson said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> right 3 vids, but you claim that it is every person who says they are gay. I could easily find 10 videos of gay people who say that it is biological for every 3 you find.
> 
> 
> 
> Both homos and child molesters claim that it's Not a "choice" that they were born that way.
> 
> So if being homo is biological and they can't help it.
> 
> Then being a pedophile is also biological; because after all, they say it's not a choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
> 
> But when it comes to being gay, when it is not a choice, it is up to the partners to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity. That's the difference.
Click to expand...


The difference is that you have arbitrarily decided that one is acceptable and one isn't, so you choose to pretend that your morality is better than theirs.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

BDBoop said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> In fairness, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that it is genetic.
> 
> Though I suspect that one day we will discover that it is. Complex polygenic pathway.
> 
> When that happens, bigots will no longer be able to hide behind the guise of their hatred being acceptable because it's a "choice".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the most idiotic thing that has been said in this entire thread, and I am actually aware of the comments about demonic possession. No one is hiding behind the belief it is a choice to hide anything, the people that hate will continue to hate even if you give them proof that they are wrong because hate is not based on information and is only subject to logic if the person who hates chooses to learn. Maybe you should try thinking instead of spouting talking points like an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gracious, Mr. Crabby Pants. I didn't know you could step out of Spock-mode.
Click to expand...


----------



## PredFan

Sorry I'm late to this party but here's my $0.02:

In the question of Nature vs Nurture, I believe it is a little of both. I believe that there are people who are genetically susceptable to being homosexual, and it takes a stressor in the environment to shift them in that direction. I base my theory on the many friends I have who are gay.

Chip, who is 32 years old and gay has a total shit bag for a mother. his older sister could do no wrong and Chip can do no right. Chip is a very talented artist, designer, and is highly sought after in his job. He and I have collaborated on some really fine projects. he's a generally nice guy. His mom is a beast from hell.

Jamie who I think is about 30, is a lesbian friend who I met via my daughter. She's funny, vibrant and being in her company is always good for one's soul. Her brother, whom she grew up admiring was tragically killed while she watched. I don't know the details, because she can't speak of it still after all these years.

Jon, a gay friend who only recently came out, has always been a troubled soul. i have known him for many years. We were among a group of good friends who drank a whole lot of alchohol in our days. he's adopted and his rich parents are psycho. I never liked them.

Phil, another Gay friend who recently came out, though it was no surprise to anyone, has a past he won't talk about at all. Since he came out he's been likethe phoenix rising from the ashes. The change in him is astounding. He is now on to greater things.

I vote both nature and nurture.


----------



## Sunni Man

Basically, you are saying that bad parenting and/or personal tragedy drives people into becoming fudge packers and carpet munchers.


----------



## BDBoop

PredFan said:


> Sorry I'm late to this party but here's my $0.02:
> 
> In the question of Nature vs Nurture, I believe it is a little of both. I believe that there are people who are genetically susceptable to being homosexual, and it takes a stressor in the environment to shift them in that direction. I base my theory on the many friends I have who are gay.
> 
> Chip, who is 32 years old and gay has a total shit bag for a mother. his older sister could do no wrong and Chip can do no right. Chip is a very talented artist, designer, and is highly sought after in his job. He and I have collaborated on some really fine projects. he's a generally nice guy. His mom is a beast from hell.
> 
> Jamie who I think is about 30, is a lesbian friend who I met via my daughter. She's funny, vibrant and being in her company is always good for one's soul. Her brother, whom she grew up admiring was tragically killed while she watched. I don't know the details, because she can't speak of it still after all these years.
> 
> Jon, a gay friend who only recently came out, has always been a troubled soul. i have known him for many years. We were among a group of good friends who drank a whole lot of alchohol in our days. he's adopted and his rich parents are psycho. I never liked them.
> 
> Phil, another Gay friend who recently came out, though it was no surprise to anyone, has a past he won't talk about at all. Since he came out he's been likethe phoenix rising from the ashes. The change in him is astounding. He is now on to greater things.
> 
> I vote both nature and nurture.



I have given too much rep, but I have a long attention span and will remember.


----------



## rdean

52ndStreet said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, a sick pathetic choice, to allow a Homosexual demon from another dimension to take over
> your sexual preference.
> 
> It may also be of demonic origin.
Click to expand...


I'm sure that's what it is.  Demons.  Republicans believe in Demons.  If they didn't, Demons wouldn't exist.  They have the Republicans to thank.


----------



## PredFan

Sunni Man said:


> Basically, you are saying that bad parenting and/or personal tragedy drives people into becoming fudge packers and carpet munchers.



(Ignoring the unnecessary crudeness)

I'm saying that i believe that it is a genetic propensity with an environmental trigger. Not really a choice at all, imo.


----------



## PredFan

BDBoop said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I'm late to this party but here's my $0.02:
> 
> In the question of Nature vs Nurture, I believe it is a little of both. I believe that there are people who are genetically susceptable to being homosexual, and it takes a stressor in the environment to shift them in that direction. I base my theory on the many friends I have who are gay.
> 
> Chip, who is 32 years old and gay has a total shit bag for a mother. his older sister could do no wrong and Chip can do no right. Chip is a very talented artist, designer, and is highly sought after in his job. He and I have collaborated on some really fine projects. he's a generally nice guy. His mom is a beast from hell.
> 
> Jamie who I think is about 30, is a lesbian friend who I met via my daughter. She's funny, vibrant and being in her company is always good for one's soul. Her brother, whom she grew up admiring was tragically killed while she watched. I don't know the details, because she can't speak of it still after all these years.
> 
> Jon, a gay friend who only recently came out, has always been a troubled soul. i have known him for many years. We were among a group of good friends who drank a whole lot of alchohol in our days. he's adopted and his rich parents are psycho. I never liked them.
> 
> Phil, another Gay friend who recently came out, though it was no surprise to anyone, has a past he won't talk about at all. Since he came out he's been likethe phoenix rising from the ashes. The change in him is astounding. He is now on to greater things.
> 
> I vote both nature and nurture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have given too much rep, but I have a long attention span and will remember.
Click to expand...


I definately do not believe it is a choice.


----------



## PredFan

rdean said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, a sick pathetic choice, to allow a Homosexual demon from another dimension to take over
> your sexual preference.
> 
> It may also be of demonic origin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure that's what it is.  Demons.  Republicans believe in Demons.  If they didn't, Demons wouldn't exist.  They have the Republicans to thank.
Click to expand...


What's that smell?

Oh, it's rdean coming to stink up another thread.


----------



## PredFan

BDBoop said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I'm late to this party but here's my $0.02:
> 
> In the question of Nature vs Nurture, I believe it is a little of both. I believe that there are people who are genetically susceptable to being homosexual, and it takes a stressor in the environment to shift them in that direction. I base my theory on the many friends I have who are gay.
> 
> Chip, who is 32 years old and gay has a total shit bag for a mother. his older sister could do no wrong and Chip can do no right. Chip is a very talented artist, designer, and is highly sought after in his job. He and I have collaborated on some really fine projects. he's a generally nice guy. His mom is a beast from hell.
> 
> Jamie who I think is about 30, is a lesbian friend who I met via my daughter. She's funny, vibrant and being in her company is always good for one's soul. Her brother, whom she grew up admiring was tragically killed while she watched. I don't know the details, because she can't speak of it still after all these years.
> 
> Jon, a gay friend who only recently came out, has always been a troubled soul. i have known him for many years. We were among a group of good friends who drank a whole lot of alchohol in our days. he's adopted and his rich parents are psycho. I never liked them.
> 
> Phil, another Gay friend who recently came out, though it was no surprise to anyone, has a past he won't talk about at all. Since he came out he's been likethe phoenix rising from the ashes. The change in him is astounding. He is now on to greater things.
> 
> I vote both nature and nurture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have given too much rep, but I have a long attention span and will remember.
Click to expand...


I could go on about these three people, and some of my other friends, but these are the closest.


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag, what do you believe? Do you believe it is a choice or that it is not a choice? Conclusive scientific evidence or not, which do you believe is more likely? 

This is just a question based on curiosity... nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag, what do you believe? Do you believe it is a choice or that it is not a choice? Conclusive scientific evidence or not, which do you believe is more likely?
> 
> This is just a question based on curiosity... nothing more, nothing less.



Personally, I think it is a matter of choice. Unfortunately not everyone makes a choice, most people prefer to pretend they do not have one.


----------



## geauxtohell

Quantum Windbag said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fairness, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that it is genetic.
> 
> Though I suspect that one day we will discover that it is. Complex polygenic pathway.
> 
> When that happens, bigots will no longer be able to hide behind the guise of their hatred being acceptable because it's a "choice".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is the most idiotic thing that has been said in this entire thread, and I am actually aware of the comments about demonic possession. No one is hiding behind the belief it is a choice to hide anything, the people that hate will continue to hate even if you give them proof that they are wrong because hate is not based on information and is only subject to logic if the person who hates chooses to learn. Maybe you should try thinking instead of spouting talking points like an idiot.
Click to expand...


Demonic possession?  What in the fuck are you talking about?  

People are certainly open about being bigots under the guise that homosexuality is a choice.  

If homosexuality is a biological construct, then discriminating against it is akin to discrimination based on race and you share a mindset with Bull Connor.  

Own it.


----------



## Political Junky

It's obvious that some have made a choice to be heterosexual rather than gay. Thus they feel sexuality is a choice for everyone.


----------



## Cenotaph

geauxtohell said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> In fairness, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that it is genetic.
> 
> Though I suspect that one day we will discover that it is. Complex polygenic pathway.
> 
> When that happens, bigots will no longer be able to hide behind the guise of their hatred being acceptable because it's a "choice".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the most idiotic thing that has been said in this entire thread, and I am actually aware of the comments about demonic possession. No one is hiding behind the belief it is a choice to hide anything, the people that hate will continue to hate even if you give them proof that they are wrong because hate is not based on information and is only subject to logic if the person who hates chooses to learn. Maybe you should try thinking instead of spouting talking points like an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Demonic possession?  What in the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> People are certainly open about being bigots under the guise that homosexuality is a choice.
> 
> If homosexuality is a biological construct, then discriminating against it is akin to discrimination based on race and you share a mindset with Bull Connor.
> 
> Own it.
Click to expand...

 
Actually, there was poll (taken in 2000) that asked whether or not one's opinion would change if sexual orientation was proven not to be a choice. 75% said "no."

Now, polls are not always very reliable (especially when there is only _one_... which was taken 12 years ago), but keep in mind that racism and sexism have existed and still exists despite the fact both gender and skin color are determined by genetics. 

People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) hiding behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.


----------



## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) *hiding* behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.


No one is hiding behind anything you nitwit. 

Because there is No proof of sexual orientation before birth.

Question: Will you change Your opinion once science proves that being a homo is 100% choice??


----------



## Flopper

Sunni Man said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
> 
> 
> 
> The same argument was used against the homos just a few years ago.
> 
> Now being a homo is considered normal.
> 
> Pedophiles say that it's not a "choice" sames as the homos.
> 
> Thus, there is No difference between homosexuality and pedophelia.
Click to expand...

If you haven't noticed pedophiles are committing a crime because it's not consensual between adults but you probably never noticed that.


----------



## Cenotaph

Sunni Man said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) *hiding* behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is hiding behind anything you nitwit.
> 
> Because there is No proof of sexual orientation before birth.
> 
> Question: Will you change Your opinion once science proves that being a homo is 100% choice??
Click to expand...


Exhibit A: Man of Faith


----------



## Flopper

Cenotaph said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the most idiotic thing that has been said in this entire thread, and I am actually aware of the comments about demonic possession. No one is hiding behind the belief it is a choice to hide anything, the people that hate will continue to hate even if you give them proof that they are wrong because hate is not based on information and is only subject to logic if the person who hates chooses to learn. Maybe you should try thinking instead of spouting talking points like an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Demonic possession?  What in the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> People are certainly open about being bigots under the guise that homosexuality is a choice.
> 
> If homosexuality is a biological construct, then discriminating against it is akin to discrimination based on race and you share a mindset with Bull Connor.
> 
> Own it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, there was poll (taken in 2000) that asked whether or not one's opinion would change if sexual orientation was proven not to be a choice. 75% said "no."
> 
> Now, polls are not always very reliable (especially when there is only _one_... which was taken 12 years ago), but keep in mind that racism and sexism have existed and still exists despite the fact both gender and skin color are determined by genetics.
> 
> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) hiding behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.
Click to expand...

In 2000, there were no states that allowed same sex marriage.  Now there are 8.  Polls were reliable in 2000 when voter were against same sex marriage and not in 2012 when a majority of voter approve of allowing same sex marriage?


----------



## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) *hiding* behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is hiding behind anything you nitwit.
> 
> Because there is No proof of sexual orientation before birth.
> 
> Question: Will you change Your opinion once science proves that being a homo is 100% choice??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exhibit A: Man of Faith
Click to expand...

fyi I had the same anti homo stance before I embraced religion.

Now will you answer my question and quit "hiding" like you accuse everyone else of doing.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
Click to expand...


Do you have any conclusive scientific evidence to indicate it is anything but a choice?

Having been a student of biology, and raising a wide variety of animals throughout my life. "Homosexuality" in the form of sexual penetration and pair bonding solely for sexual gratification is not a common occurrence in mammal populations.  What is commonly cited as "homosexual" behavior is actually dominance behavior.  For various reasons, populations of animals will comprise separate groups of males and females, with the two genders mixing for purposes of procreation.  If anything, the proclivity of humans to bond with others of the same gender demonstrates our similarity to other mammalian species.


----------



## Cenotaph

Flopper said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demonic possession?  What in the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> People are certainly open about being bigots under the guise that homosexuality is a choice.
> 
> If homosexuality is a biological construct, then discriminating against it is akin to discrimination based on race and you share a mindset with Bull Connor.
> 
> Own it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there was poll (taken in 2000) that asked whether or not one's opinion would change if sexual orientation was proven not to be a choice. 75% said "no."
> 
> Now, polls are not always very reliable (especially when there is only _one_... which was taken 12 years ago), but keep in mind that racism and sexism have existed and still exists despite the fact both gender and skin color are determined by genetics.
> 
> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) hiding behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 2000, there were no states that allowed same sex marriage.  Now there are 8.  Polls were reliable in 2000 when voter were against same sex marriage and not in 2012 when a majority of voter approve of allowing same sex marriage?
Click to expand...


How is that relevant to what I was talking about?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

geauxtohell said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> In fairness, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that it is genetic.
> 
> Though I suspect that one day we will discover that it is. Complex polygenic pathway.
> 
> When that happens, bigots will no longer be able to hide behind the guise of their hatred being acceptable because it's a "choice".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the most idiotic thing that has been said in this entire thread, and I am actually aware of the comments about demonic possession. No one is hiding behind the belief it is a choice to hide anything, the people that hate will continue to hate even if you give them proof that they are wrong because hate is not based on information and is only subject to logic if the person who hates chooses to learn. Maybe you should try thinking instead of spouting talking points like an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Demonic possession?  What in the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> People are certainly open about being bigots under the guise that homosexuality is a choice.
> 
> If homosexuality is a biological construct, then discriminating against it is akin to discrimination based on race and you share a mindset with Bull Connor.
> 
> Own it.
Click to expand...


People are bigots because they are bigots. Unless you think people can choose their skin color your argument that homosexuality is not a choice is not going to make a bit of difference to them.

By the way, not once anywhere on this board have I ever said anything that is even close to being bigoted about anyone. If you weren't a bigot you wouldn't think I am a bigot because I am smart enough to know that no one knows what causes sexual preference. Just because you insist on ignoring the truth does not mean I am going to.


----------



## Flopper

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag, what do you believe? Do you believe it is a choice or that it is not a choice? Conclusive scientific evidence or not, which do you believe is more likely?
> 
> This is just a question based on curiosity... nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it is a matter of choice. Unfortunately not everyone makes a choice, most people prefer to pretend they do not have one.
Click to expand...

How do you define choice? having a sexual preference for those of the same sex or leading a leading a gay life style.  They are certainly not the same.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there was poll (taken in 2000) that asked whether or not one's opinion would change if sexual orientation was proven not to be a choice. 75% said "no."
> 
> Now, polls are not always very reliable (especially when there is only _one_... which was taken 12 years ago), but keep in mind that racism and sexism have existed and still exists despite the fact both gender and skin color are determined by genetics.
> 
> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) hiding behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.
> 
> 
> 
> In 2000, there were no states that allowed same sex marriage.  Now there are 8.  Polls were reliable in 2000 when voter were against same sex marriage and not in 2012 when a majority of voter approve of allowing same sex marriage?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is that relevant to what I was talking about?
Click to expand...


Flopper is one of the bigots that agrees with you that homosexuality is not a choice, and he thinks that anyone who even hints that he might be wrong is a right wing asshole who hates gays.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Vidi said:


> Heres the thing:
> 
> No one is 100% straight opr gay ( no matter what they say ) The data concerning prenatal hormones is interesting in that it shows us that we can be predisposed from birth to a certain orientation.
> 
> Lets say three people are born this way
> 
> Person A is predisposed 70% homosexual 30% straight
> Person B is predisposed 50/50
> Person C is predisposed 30% homosexual 70% straight.
> 
> Predisposition does not decide on the persons eventual sexual orientation. That comes from two other factors: Enviornment and finally choice.
> 
> Now some people will object to the choice factor but let me explain. One has to accept what they are in order to live their lives. In that sense, choice is a factor.
> 
> I think the reason theres such a strong debate on the subject is that there isnt a single cause but a combination of factors that lead to sexual orientation, both straight and homosexual.



I think the reason for such strong debate is more directly related to the current trend for those having such "predilection" to claim special privileges and benefits based on their choice to succumb to whatever predisposition may, or may not, affect them.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Flopper said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag, what do you believe? Do you believe it is a choice or that it is not a choice? Conclusive scientific evidence or not, which do you believe is more likely?
> 
> This is just a question based on curiosity... nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it is a matter of choice. Unfortunately not everyone makes a choice, most people prefer to pretend they do not have one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you define choice? having a sexual preference for those of the same sex or leading a leading a gay life style.  They are certainly not the same.
Click to expand...


How do I define choice? More than one option and the ability to make a decision based on whatever criteria you want to use. You are the one that wants to make people into robots that are forced to do what they do, not me.


----------



## Flopper

Quantum Windbag said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it is a matter of choice. Unfortunately not everyone makes a choice, most people prefer to pretend they do not have one.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you define choice? having a sexual preference for those of the same sex or leading a leading a gay life style.  They are certainly not the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do I define choice? More than one option and the ability to make a decision based on whatever criteria you want to use. You are the one that wants to make people into robots that are forced to do what they do, not me.
Click to expand...

I was just asking as to what choice you were referring to in respect to gays, choosing to lead a gay life style or having a sexual preference for those of the same sex.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heres the thing:
> 
> No one is 100% straight opr gay ( no matter what they say ) The data concerning prenatal hormones is interesting in that it shows us that we can be predisposed from birth to a certain orientation.
> 
> Lets say three people are born this way
> 
> Person A is predisposed 70% homosexual 30% straight
> Person B is predisposed 50/50
> Person C is predisposed 30% homosexual 70% straight.
> 
> Predisposition does not decide on the persons eventual sexual orientation. That comes from two other factors: Enviornment and finally choice.
> 
> Now some people will object to the choice factor but let me explain. One has to accept what they are in order to live their lives. In that sense, choice is a factor.
> 
> I think the reason theres such a strong debate on the subject is that there isnt a single cause but a combination of factors that lead to sexual orientation, both straight and homosexual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have actually heard of this theory before, and another one similar to it in that sexuality "fluxuates" as a life progresses.
> 
> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
> 
> EDIT: Forgot this: Again, I am sorry to repeat myself, but it is not about whether we accept what we are and make a choice (as you put it), but what we are dealt with in terms of the orientation itself. I did not choose to be attracted to guys. I just am. I _choose_ to date guys because my attraction to women is so minute and rare that it's almost nonexistent.
Click to expand...


I have _chosen_ to remain celibate because I am just not really that interested in sex at all.  Does that make me a freak...I'm sure some, if not many would say "Yes".  That doesn't bother me at all.  I have been told I just have a low libido, or some such.  I rather consider that I have many other, varied interests besides sex.  Does your "predisposition" necessarily make you a freak?  Only if you let others define you as such.  But, as I mentioned, a lot of people find it patently offensive that homosexuals/lesbians/etc appear to be very actively trying to force others to accept who or what they define themselves as.  I would suggest that as long as everyone has the same legal opportunities, that some terms be left to populations who have long had a franchise on the idea, i.e. marriage.  Do you really need to paste the same name on a sentiment that should be held above such constricted definitions?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Flopper said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you define choice? having a sexual preference for those of the same sex or leading a leading a gay life style.  They are certainly not the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do I define choice? More than one option and the ability to make a decision based on whatever criteria you want to use. You are the one that wants to make people into robots that are forced to do what they do, not me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was just asking as to what choice you were referring to in respect to gays, choosing to lead a gay life style or having a sexual preference for those of the same sex.
Click to expand...


I was asked for my opinion by a specific poster, I gave it. I don't care if you like it, I am not trying to defend it because I know there is no evidence to explain sexuality one way or another.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Vidi said:


> Ariux said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roy and Silo were in captivity, hardly natural conditions.  Roy and Silo never performed sex acts!  Boy and girl penguins look the same!   Silo (a male) eventually hooked up with a female name Scrappy!
> 
> Is it representative of homosexual human male partners to never perform sex acts?  Are homosexual men too stupid to tell the difference between a male and a female?
> 
> Roy and Silo do not reflect human homosexuals.  But, you offer this example just as bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please try not to comment on things that require logic, reason or any kind of thinking at all. Its not your strong suit.
Click to expand...


He has a point.  Animals kept in abnormal conditions are not representative of the overall population.  I am willing to bet that the actual sex act was never consummated between the two.  Also, apparently when one of the animals was offered an opportunity to "go straight", he did.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Big Black Dog said:


> When I was born, the doctor told my mother that I was a boy.  When I got older my mother told me I was a boy.  Guess it must be true and I'd say I'm pretty well orientated to the fact that I'm a boy.



You are no doubt a brain-washed dupe, simply accepting without question that you are a boy because you've been told so!


----------



## gallantwarrior

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science _would_ play a part in it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
Click to expand...


Ah, yes...but would you want your sister to marry one?


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, then here are two questions:
> 1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
> 2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?
> 
> Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).
> 
> Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it was a choice, I keep pointing out that you cannot prove it is not.
> How can you be gay if you are attracted to some women?
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my  life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking  on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be  believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim  to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I think the person with the problem here is you, sexuality is obviously more complicated than you are trying to portray it.
> 
> 
> As for your psychological question, consider this.
> 
> 
> Sexual Masochism | Psychology Today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, I am done arguing about the rest of this debate. You are (currently) correct about there not being any valid and conclusive scientific evidence supporting the causes for sexual orientation. I was, as you previously stating, twisting science to support my personal beliefs. However, I want to know how masochism would be the reason for people choosing to be gay. Surely those who identify themselves as homosexual are not all masochists?
Click to expand...


Is masochism genetically determined, or is it a choice?


----------



## gallantwarrior

gxnelson said:


> Based on personal observation I think for some it is a choice and for others it's biological.
> 
> Case 1:
> Someone I know was brought up by a gay couple. He dated girls for a while, but decided he dug boys. From what I could tell this was his choice. I think he liked girls, but just decided he wanted to give guys a try. Now I haven't talked to him in several years so I have no idea whether or not he still is into guys or not. But that, to me, is a choice.
> 
> Case 2:
> One of my friends was brought up in a Catholic household. He went to church every Sunday and his family was very religious. I was one of the first people he came out to. He told me he was very worried about telling his family because they saw it as a sin. He didn't tell them for a long time out of that fear. Now, if he was really that afraid it being a sin, as his family and church so firmly believed, how could anyone make that choice to be gay?
> 
> Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.



Rebellion against the status quo is very common in teens and young adults.  If he was uncomfortable with his parents, or felt he was being "bullied" by his family to accept religious beliefs he did not support, "coming out" would have been a great way to "punish" his family.  Again, a choice, albeit an subconscious one.


----------



## gallantwarrior

gxnelson said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> right 3 vids, but you claim that it is every person who says they are gay. I could easily find 10 videos of gay people who say that it is biological for every 3 you find.
> 
> 
> 
> Both homos and child molesters claim that it's Not a "choice" that they were born that way.
> 
> So if being homo is biological and they can't help it.
> 
> Then being a pedophile is also biological; because after all, they say it's not a choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
> 
> But when it comes to being gay, when it is not a choice, it is up to the partners to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity. That's the difference.
Click to expand...


The choice to engage in sexual activity, or not, is not limited to homosexuals.  Heterosexuals also have that choice.


----------



## koshergrl

Flopper said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demonic possession?  What in the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> People are certainly open about being bigots under the guise that homosexuality is a choice.
> 
> If homosexuality is a biological construct, then discriminating against it is akin to discrimination based on race and you share a mindset with Bull Connor.
> 
> Own it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there was poll (taken in 2000) that asked whether or not one's opinion would change if sexual orientation was proven not to be a choice. 75% said "no."
> 
> Now, polls are not always very reliable (especially when there is only _one_... which was taken 12 years ago), but keep in mind that racism and sexism have existed and still exists despite the fact both gender and skin color are determined by genetics.
> 
> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) hiding behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 2000, there were no states that allowed same sex marriage.  Now there are 8.  Polls were reliable in 2000 when voter were against same sex marriage and not in 2012 when a majority of voter approve of allowing same sex marriage?
Click to expand...


Wow at this rate, in about 62 years homos will be able to get married anywhere they want! Glory Hallelujah!

Meh, I don't see it happening.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Sunni Man said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same argument was used against the homos just a few years ago.
> 
> Now being a homo is considered normal.
> 
> Pedophiles say that it's not a "choice" sames as the homos.
> 
> Thus, there is No difference between homosexuality and pedophelia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how you cut out the second half of my post.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who have sex with animals say that it's not a "choice" either.
> 
> Just saying
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, it has become fashionable for sex of any stripe to be sanctioned because of some claimed genetic predisposition to such.  Morality does not enter into the equation.  Hollywood plays a HUGE role in the normalization of what was once considered perverse.  Government has played along in order to pander to various constituencies.


----------



## gallantwarrior

PredFan said:


> Sorry I'm late to this party but here's my $0.02:
> 
> In the question of Nature vs Nurture, I believe it is a little of both. I believe that there are people who are genetically susceptable to being homosexual, and it takes a stressor in the environment to shift them in that direction. I base my theory on the many friends I have who are gay.
> 
> Chip, who is 32 years old and gay has a total shit bag for a mother. his older sister could do no wrong and Chip can do no right. Chip is a very talented artist, designer, and is highly sought after in his job. He and I have collaborated on some really fine projects. he's a generally nice guy. His mom is a beast from hell.
> 
> Jamie who I think is about 30, is a lesbian friend who I met via my daughter. She's funny, vibrant and being in her company is always good for one's soul. Her brother, whom she grew up admiring was tragically killed while she watched. I don't know the details, because she can't speak of it still after all these years.
> 
> Jon, a gay friend who only recently came out, has always been a troubled soul. i have known him for many years. We were among a group of good friends who drank a whole lot of alchohol in our days. he's adopted and his rich parents are psycho. I never liked them.
> 
> Phil, another Gay friend who recently came out, though it was no surprise to anyone, has a past he won't talk about at all. Since he came out he's been likethe phoenix rising from the ashes. The change in him is astounding. He is now on to greater things.
> 
> I vote both nature and nurture.



Bottom line, sexuality has little to do with one's personality.  It's what's inside that counts.


----------



## gallantwarrior

DANG!  Just when I'm having a blast.  I looked at the time.  I have to toss myself into the feathers for a few hours shut-eye before I go feed my addiction to regular paychecks.
Spaeter!


----------



## MaryL

If I am going to leave a post please post a link? Wow. 2 +2 =4. Do I need a link for that too? It's obvious, homosexuality is um, well. Dysfunctional. Your momma and poppa  weren't gay. And they made silly old you. The purpose of sex isn't to hard to figure out without links. Gays aren't quite following THAT simple little paradigm. I don't respect THEM because they are childish  sexually  maladjusted  narcissist perverts.  A pervert by any other name...So? the human race can do just fine without homosexuals, we have survived millions of years without any children conceived through gay sex. Need a link to that, too? Ask your PARENTS.


----------



## gxnelson

gallantwarrior said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on personal observation I think for some it is a choice and for others it's biological.
> 
> Case 1:
> Someone I know was brought up by a gay couple. He dated girls for a while, but decided he dug boys. From what I could tell this was his choice. I think he liked girls, but just decided he wanted to give guys a try. Now I haven't talked to him in several years so I have no idea whether or not he still is into guys or not. But that, to me, is a choice.
> 
> Case 2:
> One of my friends was brought up in a Catholic household. He went to church every Sunday and his family was very religious. I was one of the first people he came out to. He told me he was very worried about telling his family because they saw it as a sin. He didn't tell them for a long time out of that fear. Now, if he was really that afraid it being a sin, as his family and church so firmly believed, how could anyone make that choice to be gay?
> 
> Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rebellion against the status quo is very common in teens and young adults.  If he was uncomfortable with his parents, or felt he was being "bullied" by his family to accept religious beliefs he did not support, "coming out" would have been a great way to "punish" his family.  Again, a choice, albeit an subconscious one.
Click to expand...


lol

rebellious??? No. He's one of the sweetest people I know, and if he didn't want to tell them it was because he didn't want the shame or disappointment. It was never about being bullied. He is still catholic as far as I know as well. 

Not a choice. This happened a good 7 years ago, and he is still gay. So if it was just a rebellion, then why is he still gay??? 

Also, what about all those children who grew up in families that are completely accepting either way? What's your excuse for the reason they are gay?


----------



## gxnelson

Quantum Windbag said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both homos and child molesters claim that it's Not a "choice" that they were born that way.
> 
> So if being homo is biological and they can't help it.
> 
> Then being a pedophile is also biological; because after all, they say it's not a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
> 
> But when it comes to being gay, when it is not a choice, it is up to the partners to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity. That's the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference is that you have arbitrarily decided that one is acceptable and one isn't, so you choose to pretend that your morality is better than theirs.
Click to expand...


So I arbitrarily decided that I find it OK for *two consenting adults* to have sexual relations, and arbitrarily decided that it was not OK for *an adult to force a kid* to have sex?

Or am I misreading your comment?


----------



## Cenotaph

gallantwarrior said:


> I have _chosen_ to remain celibate because I am just not really that interested in sex at all.  Does that make me a freak...I'm sure some, if not many would say "Yes".  That doesn't bother me at all.  I have been told I just have a low libido, or some such.  I rather consider that I have many other, varied interests besides sex.  Does your "predisposition" necessarily make you a freak?  Only if you let others define you as such.  But, as I mentioned, a lot of people find it patently offensive that homosexuals/lesbians/etc appear to be very actively trying to force others to accept who or what they define themselves as.  I would suggest that as long as everyone has the same legal opportunities, that some terms be left to populations who have long had a franchise on the idea, i.e. marriage.  Do you really need to paste the same name on a sentiment that should be held above such constricted definitions?


I don't really care what people have to say about my sexuality. I am what I am. I'm not happy or sad about it... it's just there. Also, we're not arguing about marriage rights, we're talking about what _causes_ sexual orientation....



gallantwarrior said:


> The choice to engage in sexual activity, or not, is not limited to homosexuals.  Heterosexuals also have that choice.


I don't think anyone is refuting that. 



gallantwarrior said:


> Unfortunately, it has become fashionable for sex of any stripe to be sanctioned because of some claimed genetic predisposition to such.  Morality does not enter into the equation.  Hollywood plays a HUGE role in the normalization of what was once considered perverse.  Government has played along in order to pander to various constituencies.


Again, this thread exists to discuss the causes for sexual oriention...  

I put this thread in the Science and Technology sub-forum for a reason.


----------



## Cenotaph

MaryL said:


> If I am going to leave a post please post a link? Wow. 2 +2 =4. Do I need a link for that too? It's obvious, homosexuality is um, well. Dysfunctional. Your momma and poppa  weren't gay. And they made silly old you. The purpose of sex isn't to hard to figure out without links. Gays aren't quite following THAT simple little paradigm. I don't respect THEM because they are childish  sexually  maladjusted  narcissist perverts.  A pervert by any other name...So? the human race can do just fine without homosexuals, we have survived millions of years without any children conceived through gay sex. Need a link to that, too? Ask your PARENTS.


Yes, this is a thread regarding the science behind sexual orientation. If you are going to make a statement in regards to this topic, then it would be best to back it up with sources. 

As I said to gallantwarrior, this thread exists to discuss the causes of sexual orientation, not to share your opinion on the morality/immorality of homosexuality.

Also, I was raised by a gay couple (two women)... just to be clear.


----------



## IndependntLogic

Jayzuz, the level of ignorance in this thread is astounding. So basically, there are people who are so stupid, they believe that upon reaching puberty, millions of young people say to themselves:

"Hmmm. Let's see. 
What could I do to alienate my friends and family and be considered a freak by a lot of ignorant whackjobs? 
What could I do to increase my chances of being beaten or even killed without provocation? What could I do to eliminate my chance to join the military (until recently) and make it tougher to get a job, just because of who I am? 
What can I do to make it tougher to have a normal life?
I know! I'll suddenly CHOOSE to be turned on by the same sex!"

I had a friend in high school. Geez I envied him. Tall, muscular, star running back on the football team and always had the hottest girlfriends. Lots of them. Turned out he was gay. Kicked off the team. Got the crap beat out of him and when his parents found out WHY he was in the hospital, they told him not to come home. He disappeared and I was pretty sure he killed himself. Ran into him years later. Great guy. Owns a Wendy's or McDonalds, I forget which. So we had a beer and he told me about living scared to death of his own body. Oh yeah, his parents were devout Christians. He knew when he was like 9 or 10 and tried praying the gay away. Didn't work. It really was very impactful.

So to the whackjobs who think it's a choice, you can convince me of that fact very easily. You can put everyone in their place or you are proven wrong and will Cut & Run from this question:

If you wanted to, could you get aroused by imagining yourself having sex with someone of the same sex? I mean, it's a "choice" right? So YOU could chooses to get hard by looking at and imagining a sexual act with a man's penis & balls, right?

You may now all change the subject, deflect or Cut & Run.


----------



## flacaltenn

Cenotaph said:


> This is somewhat inspired by Maxcha's thread, which... instead of arguing the morality (silly word) of homosexuality, we're arguing in what _causes_ it.
> 
> Is it genetic, hormonal, or psychological... or possibly a combination of two or three?
> 
> From the evidence I have seen, it seems to be pointing towards hormones. There have been specific twin studies over the past few years that examine sets of twins with differing sexual orientations. Each set of twins are genetically identical and have experienced (relatively) uniform environmental settings. If this is true, the "nurture" aspect of psychological development is omitted with just "nature" left... Since it's not genetic (in this instance), then maybe it's hormonal?
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> By the way, if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.



Admission -- haven't read a lot about the science on this, but I understand a bit about genetics, psychology and hormones at an academic level.. 

I think it's all three. And I think society misdiagnoses "true gayness" too often. 

For example -- the BiSexual folks I've known (one intimately) have very few characteristic traits of "being gay". They don't even seriously accept the proposition of themselves being gay. They have just chosen (yep choice) to behave this way.. Score one for psychological. 

Long way from BiSexual choice to gayness. The manners of speaking, gesturing, adaption to specific artistic and created tasks, easy association with same sex partners -- THIS has got to be genetic. There are many ways that genes determine traits. One is by presence, another is by activation.. Presence is the fact that someone INHERITED a gene from a parent. Activation is a chemical/neurological process that is not completely explained. 

I believe that gayness could be an activation of genes that are fairly prevalent in populations but not yet identified. Therefore your lineage doesn't have to be heavily involved. Since we see "gayness" in other species, the gene stuff could be carried in all that "junk DNA" that's in common with other mammals. 

Suck on this for a minute.. 

Are People Born Gay? Genetics and Homosexuality



> Paul Cameron published a study in 2006 that claimed that the children of homosexual parents expressed a homosexual orientation much more frequently than the general population.39 Although claims of bias were made against the study, another study by Walter Schuum in 2010 confirmed Cameron's results by statistically examining the results of 10 other studies that addressed the question.40 In total, 262 children raised by homosexual parents were included in the analysis. The results showed that 16-57% of such children adopted a homosexual lifestyle. The results were even more striking in daughters of lesbian mothers, 33% to 57% of whom became lesbians themselves. Since homosexuals makeup only ~5% of the population, it is clear that parenting does influence sexual orientation.



YEAH, YEAH.. I KNOW the link sucks. So HERE is the ORIGINAL study that he is referring. So it is real. 

Children of homosexuals and transsexuals more a... [J Biosoc Sci. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

[[After I posted this I realized that although it appears on the NIH website and was published in a respectable journal, the researchers' organization affiliation may make this suspect. I generally don't discount scientific journal articles because of affiliation, but some might. Free speech, free minds, free inquiry, etc, etc]]

So NURTURE seems to win over NATURE in a lot of the studies. But don't count GENES out of it yet.. 

I've read about hormone activation of genes --- is it POSSIBLE that HORMONES could activate some of those "junk DNA" genes and initiate gayness? Sounds possible. If you go back to the NIH report -- Is it possible that hormone generation due to living with GAY PARENTS enhances the possibilitty of that gene activation? What ELSE might influence the activation? 

Could EVERYONE be right? Tune in later --- I think that's the answer. It just MIGHT be ALL THREE....

Lots of questions eh? The science is out there. We'll know soon...


----------



## Quantum Windbag

gxnelson said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
> 
> But when it comes to being gay, when it is not a choice, it is up to the partners to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity. That's the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that you have arbitrarily decided that one is acceptable and one isn't, so you choose to pretend that your morality is better than theirs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I arbitrarily decided that I find it OK for *two consenting adults* to have sexual relations, and arbitrarily decided that it was not OK for *an adult to force a kid* to have sex?
> 
> Or am I misreading your comment?
Click to expand...


That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

IndependntLogic said:


> Jayzuz, the level of ignorance in this thread is astounding. So basically, there are people who are so stupid, they believe that upon reaching puberty, millions of young people say to themselves:
> 
> "Hmmm. Let's see.
> What could I do to alienate my friends and family and be considered a freak by a lot of ignorant whackjobs?
> What could I do to increase my chances of being beaten or even killed without provocation? What could I do to eliminate my chance to join the military (until recently) and make it tougher to get a job, just because of who I am?
> What can I do to make it tougher to have a normal life?
> I know! I'll suddenly CHOOSE to be turned on by the same sex!"
> 
> I had a friend in high school. Geez I envied him. Tall, muscular, star running back on the football team and always had the hottest girlfriends. Lots of them. Turned out he was gay. Kicked off the team. Got the crap beat out of him and when his parents found out WHY he was in the hospital, they told him not to come home. He disappeared and I was pretty sure he killed himself. Ran into him years later. Great guy. Owns a Wendy's or McDonalds, I forget which. So we had a beer and he told me about living scared to death of his own body. Oh yeah, his parents were devout Christians. He knew when he was like 9 or 10 and tried praying the gay away. Didn't work. It really was very impactful.
> 
> So to the whackjobs who think it's a choice, you can convince me of that fact very easily. You can put everyone in their place or you are proven wrong and will Cut & Run from this question:
> 
> If you wanted to, could you get aroused by imagining yourself having sex with someone of the same sex? I mean, it's a "choice" right? So YOU could chooses to get hard by looking at and imagining a sexual act with a man's penis & balls, right?
> 
> You may now all change the subject, deflect or Cut & Run.


 
 Oh my god, the resident expert on getting everything wrong has decided  to throw in his opinion and scoff at the fact that anyone might disagree  with him and be right. 

Until you can explain the fact that identical twins who grow up in the  same house with the same genetic structure can have different sexual  preferences the fracking jury is still out. You might not like it, and  you might not be smart enough to understand the science, but the fact is  that science does not know the answer, so all you have is pretension in  assuming that, just because you are a weak minded fool that would  rather comply with societal norms and date a girl who looks like what  your friends like than one you are attracted to, that does not mean  everyone is.

Go climb back into your nice safe cocoon and leave the hard stuff to people that are not afraid of their shadows.

Either that or take me off ignore and read what I said about this subject in this thread and admit that you are wrong. The guy who started the thread did.


----------



## flacaltenn

Quantum Windbag said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that you have arbitrarily decided that one is acceptable and one isn't, so you choose to pretend that your morality is better than theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I arbitrarily decided that I find it OK for *two consenting adults* to have sexual relations, and arbitrarily decided that it was not OK for *an adult to force a kid* to have sex?
> 
> Or am I misreading your comment?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.
Click to expand...


Evidently folks the Amer Psych Assoc. is ALSO very confused about this point and has recently gotten into a HUGE PR curfuffal (sp?).. 

BTW: I think Pedophilia is STILL in the APA DSManual -- Homosexuality came out of the manual years ago for "correctness". But they will STILL take money from gays for "couch time"...


----------



## Quantum Windbag

flacaltenn said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I arbitrarily decided that I find it OK for *two consenting adults* to have sexual relations, and arbitrarily decided that it was not OK for *an adult to force a kid* to have sex?
> 
> Or am I misreading your comment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Evidently folks the Amer Psych Assoc. is ALSO very confused about this point and has recently gotten into a HUGE PR curfuffal (sp?)..
> 
> BTW: I think Pedophilia is STILL in the APA DSManual -- Homosexuality came out of the manual years ago for "correctness". But they will STILL take money from gays for "couch time"...
Click to expand...


The APA still advocates treatment for pedophilia and has been known to argue it is curable, which is amazing when they also argue that homosexuality isn't. They really need to get their collective heads out of their asses and admit they are just trying to impose their morality on other people, us Christians have no problem with contradicting ourselves that way.


----------



## Cenotaph

I thought this article was rather interesting: Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture


----------



## Political Junky

koshergrl said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there was poll (taken in 2000) that asked whether or not one's opinion would change if sexual orientation was proven not to be a choice. 75% said "no."
> 
> Now, polls are not always very reliable (especially when there is only _one_... which was taken 12 years ago), but keep in mind that racism and sexism have existed and still exists despite the fact both gender and skin color are determined by genetics.
> 
> People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) hiding behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there _was _conclusive proof.
> 
> 
> 
> In 2000, there were no states that allowed same sex marriage.  Now there are 8.  Polls were reliable in 2000 when voter were against same sex marriage and not in 2012 when a majority of voter approve of allowing same sex marriage?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow at this rate, in about 62 years homos will be able to get married anywhere they want! Glory Hallelujah!
> 
> Meh, I don't see it happening.
Click to expand...

Oh, it'll happen and in far less than 62 years.


----------



## eots

this woman has some interesting insights on the subject...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kYEr0xQZxY]Legendary & Hysterical Anti-Gay Rant (Watch the Audience Reaction) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Sunni Man

Cenotaph said:


> Also, I was raised by a gay couple (two women)... just to be clear.


Sad to here that; you never had a chance to be normal


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I arbitrarily decided that I find it OK for *two consenting adults* to have sexual relations, and arbitrarily decided that it was not OK for *an adult to force a kid* to have sex?
> 
> Or am I misreading your comment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.
Click to expand...

Well... what are your thoughts on it? Do you consider both pedophilia and homosexuality to be diseases?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has zero to do with my religion.
> 
> What homos do is just plain nasty and perverted.
> 
> I wish it wasn't a choice and was genetic.
> 
> Because most homos don't breed.
> 
> So their abnormal gay gene would go extinct rather quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say that homosexuality _is_ genetic. _If_ it is genetic, then the genes could still be carried within heterosexuals due to recessive genes (homosexuals wouldn't be the only ones).
Click to expand...


Homosexuality runs in my family.  What difference does it make what causes it?

This article addresses causes.

http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L41.pdf


----------



## PredFan

Cenotaph said:


> I thought this article was rather interesting: Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture



Nature vs nurture is a very interesting discussion, imo. As I recently stated, I believe that it is a little bit of both. That there is a genetic pre-disposition, with an environmental trigger.


----------



## PredFan

Political Junky said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 2000, there were no states that allowed same sex marriage.  Now there are 8.  Polls were reliable in 2000 when voter were against same sex marriage and not in 2012 when a majority of voter approve of allowing same sex marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow at this rate, in about 62 years homos will be able to get married anywhere they want! Glory Hallelujah!
> 
> Meh, I don't see it happening.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, it'll happen and in far less than 62 years.
Click to expand...


I don't think that the evidence is in your favor. Legislation is still getting defeated when held up for a vote, even in a state as liberal as California. A majority of Americans of all ages and ethnicities disagree with you.

Now, I know that we are a nation of laws and not "Mob Rule" but people like us who believe in liberty, particularly in the sexual arena, are in the minority and probably will stay that way for a while. 62 years might actually be accurate.


----------



## PredFan

Sky Dancer said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has zero to do with my religion.
> 
> What homos do is just plain nasty and perverted.
> 
> I wish it wasn't a choice and was genetic.
> 
> Because most homos don't breed.
> 
> So their abnormal gay gene would go extinct rather quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say that homosexuality _is_ genetic. _If_ it is genetic, then the genes could still be carried within heterosexuals due to recessive genes (homosexuals wouldn't be the only ones).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Homosexuality runs in my family.  What difference does it make what causes it?
> 
> This article addresses causes.
> 
> http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L41.pdf
Click to expand...


I believe that there is a genetic pre-disposition, but just because there are many gays in your family, doesn't rule out nurture.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Rather than tripping out about the causes of homosexuality, more to the point is can we live with differences and offer equal civil rights to citizens?


----------



## Sky Dancer

PredFan said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say that homosexuality _is_ genetic. _If_ it is genetic, then the genes could still be carried within heterosexuals due to recessive genes (homosexuals wouldn't be the only ones).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexuality runs in my family.  What difference does it make what causes it?
> 
> This article addresses causes.
> 
> http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L41.pdf
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe that there is a genetic pre-disposition, but just because there are many gays in your family, doesn't rule out nurture.
Click to expand...


There isn't much evidence of a genetic-predisposition nor is there compelling evidence that environment causes homosexuality.

Maybe it's just that some people like kinky sex, or being naughty.

I blame the Catholic Church for my lesbianism.  I have a contrary nature and the Church was totally sexually repressive when I was a kid.(and I'm saying all this in a light hearted manner)


----------



## Sky Dancer

Most researchers agree that homosexuality is multi-causal and complex; many factors contribute to the development of same-sex attraction. Most researchers, including Dr. Dean Hamer, the "gay gene researcher who is himself a gay man, agree that homosexuality is due to a combination of social, biological, and psychological factors. Dr. Hamer has said, "Genes are hardwarethe data of lifes experiences are processed through the sexual software into the circuits of identity. I suspect the sexual software is a mixture of both genes and environment, in much the same way the software of a computer is a mixture of whats installed at the factory and whats added by the user (P. Copeland and D. Hammer (1994) The Science of Desire. New York: Simon and Schuster.)

It is also important to note that the combination of factors is different for each person. 

Now a comment is needed about the second part of the question - is homosexuality a choice? Human choice can be accurately viewed as one of the factors influencing the development of sexual orientation but this does not mean that people consciously decide their sexual orientation. No one decides on a specific day that from that day onward that they will be a homosexual or a heterosexual. No one can decide that they will experience opposite-sex or same-sex attractions. Instead, sexual orientation is shaped and reshaped by a series of many choices and response to circumstances in ones life and enormous social and cultural pressures. 

Returning to the question - is homosexaulity genetic or is it a choice? The answer is neither. The simple question of what causes homosexuality appears to have a rather complicated answer. And we do not have to adopt a simplistic either/or approach when looking for what causes homosexuality. 

Causes...


----------



## PredFan

Sky Dancer said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexuality runs in my family.  What difference does it make what causes it?
> 
> This article addresses causes.
> 
> http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L41.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that there is a genetic pre-disposition, but just because there are many gays in your family, doesn't rule out nurture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There isn't much evidence of a genetic-predisposition nor is there compelling evidence that environment causes homosexuality.
> 
> Maybe it's just that some people like kinky sex, or being naughty.
> 
> I blame the Catholic Church for my lesbianism.  I have a contrary nature and the Church was totally sexually repressive when I was a kid.(and I'm saying all this in a light hearted manner)
Click to expand...


I have absolutely no evidence what so ever, only my experience. I think that the evidence for a genetic pre-disposition is men with feminine characteristics and women with male characteristics. Some men, and some women (not all mind you), you can tell they are gay just by looking at them.


----------



## PredFan

Sky Dancer said:


> Most researchers agree that homosexuality is multi-causal and complex; many factors contribute to the development of same-sex attraction. Most researchers, including Dr. Dean Hamer, the "gay gene researcher who is himself a gay man, agree that homosexuality is due to a combination of social, biological, and psychological factors. Dr. Hamer has said, "Genes are hardwarethe data of lifes experiences are processed through the sexual software into the circuits of identity. I suspect the sexual software is a mixture of both genes and environment, in much the same way the software of a computer is a mixture of whats installed at the factory and whats added by the user (P. Copeland and D. Hammer (1994) The Science of Desire. New York: Simon and Schuster.)
> 
> It is also important to note that the combination of factors is different for each person.
> 
> Now a comment is needed about the second part of the question - is homosexuality a choice? Human choice can be accurately viewed as one of the factors influencing the development of sexual orientation but this does not mean that people consciously decide their sexual orientation. No one decides on a specific day that from that day onward that they will be a homosexual or a heterosexual. No one can decide that they will experience opposite-sex or same-sex attractions. Instead, sexual orientation is shaped and reshaped by a series of many choices and response to circumstances in ones life and enormous social and cultural pressures.
> 
> Returning to the question - is homosexaulity genetic or is it a choice? The answer is neither. The simple question of what causes homosexuality appears to have a rather complicated answer. And we do not have to adopt a simplistic either/or approach when looking for what causes homosexuality.
> 
> Causes...



This would seem to support my theory that it is both. The statement "The answer is neither." can be taken as agreeing because I don't believe that it is ALL nature or all nurture. I certainly do not believe that it is choice.

Though, it is conceiveable that there may be some who actually do choose to be gay.


----------



## Sky Dancer

PredFan said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most researchers agree that homosexuality is multi-causal and complex; many factors contribute to the development of same-sex attraction. Most researchers, including Dr. Dean Hamer, the "gay gene researcher who is himself a gay man, agree that homosexuality is due to a combination of social, biological, and psychological factors. Dr. Hamer has said, "Genes are hardwarethe data of lifes experiences are processed through the sexual software into the circuits of identity. I suspect the sexual software is a mixture of both genes and environment, in much the same way the software of a computer is a mixture of whats installed at the factory and whats added by the user (P. Copeland and D. Hammer (1994) The Science of Desire. New York: Simon and Schuster.)
> 
> It is also important to note that the combination of factors is different for each person.
> 
> Now a comment is needed about the second part of the question - is homosexuality a choice? Human choice can be accurately viewed as one of the factors influencing the development of sexual orientation but this does not mean that people consciously decide their sexual orientation. No one decides on a specific day that from that day onward that they will be a homosexual or a heterosexual. No one can decide that they will experience opposite-sex or same-sex attractions. Instead, sexual orientation is shaped and reshaped by a series of many choices and response to circumstances in ones life and enormous social and cultural pressures.
> 
> Returning to the question - is homosexaulity genetic or is it a choice? The answer is neither. The simple question of what causes homosexuality appears to have a rather complicated answer. And we do not have to adopt a simplistic either/or approach when looking for what causes homosexuality.
> 
> Causes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This would seem to support my theory that it is both. The statement "The answer is neither." can be taken as agreeing because I don't believe that it is ALL nature or all nurture. I certainly do not believe that it is choice.
> 
> Though, it is conceiveable that there may be some who actually do choose to be gay.
Click to expand...


Heterosexuality, is that a choice?  If it isn't, then neither is homosexuality, and if it is, then what's the problem.

We could say we choose who we go to bed with, but I don't think we choose who we're attracted to.

Pheronomes maybe.  Compatible cooties?


----------



## PredFan

Sky Dancer said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most researchers agree that homosexuality is multi-causal and complex; many factors contribute to the development of same-sex attraction. Most researchers, including Dr. Dean Hamer, the "gay gene researcher who is himself a gay man, agree that homosexuality is due to a combination of social, biological, and psychological factors. Dr. Hamer has said, "Genes are hardwarethe data of lifes experiences are processed through the sexual software into the circuits of identity. I suspect the sexual software is a mixture of both genes and environment, in much the same way the software of a computer is a mixture of whats installed at the factory and whats added by the user (P. Copeland and D. Hammer (1994) The Science of Desire. New York: Simon and Schuster.)
> 
> It is also important to note that the combination of factors is different for each person.
> 
> Now a comment is needed about the second part of the question - is homosexuality a choice? Human choice can be accurately viewed as one of the factors influencing the development of sexual orientation but this does not mean that people consciously decide their sexual orientation. No one decides on a specific day that from that day onward that they will be a homosexual or a heterosexual. No one can decide that they will experience opposite-sex or same-sex attractions. Instead, sexual orientation is shaped and reshaped by a series of many choices and response to circumstances in ones life and enormous social and cultural pressures.
> 
> Returning to the question - is homosexaulity genetic or is it a choice? The answer is neither. The simple question of what causes homosexuality appears to have a rather complicated answer. And we do not have to adopt a simplistic either/or approach when looking for what causes homosexuality.
> 
> Causes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This would seem to support my theory that it is both. The statement "The answer is neither." can be taken as agreeing because I don't believe that it is ALL nature or all nurture. I certainly do not believe that it is choice.
> 
> Though, it is conceiveable that there may be some who actually do choose to be gay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heterosexuality, is that a choice?  If it isn't, then neither is homosexuality, and if it is, then what's the problem.
> 
> We could say we choose who we go to bed with, but I don't think we choose who we're attracted to.
> 
> Pheronomes maybe.  Compatible cooties?
Click to expand...


I only stated that there may be some people who can and do choose to be gay. I have stated repeatedly that I believe homosexuality to be a combination of genetic and environmental factors and not a choice. I had to amend that because I don't like to use absolutes. Do you think that it is impossible for a hetersexual to choose to have gay sex?


----------



## Sunni Man

PredFan said:


> Do you think that it is impossible for a hetersexual to choose to have gay sex?


If someone chooses to have gay sex.

Then they are Not a heterosexual.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Sunni Man said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that it is impossible for a hetersexual to choose to have gay sex?
> 
> 
> 
> If someone chooses to have gay sex.
> 
> Then they are Not a heterosexual.
Click to expand...


Heterosexuals sometimes have three ways.  Bi-sexuals choose to have both kinds of sex, het and homo.


----------



## PredFan

Sunni Man said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that it is impossible for a hetersexual to choose to have gay sex?
> 
> 
> 
> If someone chooses to have gay sex.
> 
> Then they are Not a heterosexual.
Click to expand...


If they are having heterosexual intercourse for years and suddenly decide to try homosexual intercourse. Then they were heterosexual until they tried it.


----------



## PredFan

Sky Dancer said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that it is impossible for a hetersexual to choose to have gay sex?
> 
> 
> 
> If someone chooses to have gay sex.
> 
> Then they are Not a heterosexual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heterosexuals sometimes have three ways.  Bi-sexuals choose to have both kinds of sex, het and homo.
Click to expand...


I think bisexuals are just greedy bastards.


----------



## IndependntLogic

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I arbitrarily decided that I find it OK for *two consenting adults* to have sexual relations, and arbitrarily decided that it was not OK for *an adult to force a kid* to have sex?
> 
> Or am I misreading your comment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well... what are your thoughts on it? Do you consider both pedophilia and homosexuality to be diseases?
Click to expand...


LOL!!!! I have the windbag on ignore because he is so consistently negative and never posts anything supported by facts (as displayed above) but sometimes the sheer stupidity of what he posts is so entertaining, I'm tempted to take him off! 
So now he is saying that he could just stop being attracted to women and "choose" to be turned on by looking naked men OR that it would be reasonable to ask him to just never act on the single strongest instinct he has.
Hilarious! 

So here's something I CAN'T do. It wouldn't matter how hard I tried, it wouldn't work. But with all the ConservaRepubs who get busted in gay acts, maybe it's different for them! 

So here's the question that the whackjobs Cut & Run from every time:

Could you just choose to get an erection by fondling, oral, anal and other contact with male genetalia? 
Yes or no?

Time to Cut & Run boys!


----------



## BDBoop

IndependntLogic said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Well... what are your thoughts on it? Do you consider both pedophilia and homosexuality to be diseases?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL!!!! I have the windbag on ignore because he is so consistently negative and never posts anything supported by facts (as displayed above) but sometimes the sheer stupidity of what he posts is so entertaining, I'm tempted to take him off!
> So now he is saying that he could just stop being attracted to women and "choose" to be turned on by looking naked men OR that it would be reasonable to ask him to just never act on the single strongest instinct he has.
> Hilarious!
> 
> So here's something I CAN'T do. It wouldn't matter how hard I tried, it wouldn't work. But with all the ConservaRepubs who get busted in gay acts, maybe it's different for them!
> 
> So here's the question that the whackjobs Cut & Run from every time:
> 
> Could you just choose to get an erection by fondling, oral, anal and other contact with male genetalia?
> Yes or no?
> 
> Time to Cut & Run boys!
Click to expand...


Yup. KG says the same thing. Apparently, they got hit so many times with "If it's choice, when did YOU choose," so now they happily announce that they did choose.

However, nobody will tell me what sexual encounter they had that helped them make that choice. Making a choice without sampling the wares is not an informed choice.


----------



## ABikerSailor

BDBoop said:


> IndependntLogic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well... what are your thoughts on it? Do you consider both pedophilia and homosexuality to be diseases?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!!!! I have the windbag on ignore because he is so consistently negative and never posts anything supported by facts (as displayed above) but sometimes the sheer stupidity of what he posts is so entertaining, I'm tempted to take him off!
> So now he is saying that he could just stop being attracted to women and "choose" to be turned on by looking naked men OR that it would be reasonable to ask him to just never act on the single strongest instinct he has.
> Hilarious!
> 
> So here's something I CAN'T do. It wouldn't matter how hard I tried, it wouldn't work. But with all the ConservaRepubs who get busted in gay acts, maybe it's different for them!
> 
> So here's the question that the whackjobs Cut & Run from every time:
> 
> Could you just choose to get an erection by fondling, oral, anal and other contact with male genetalia?
> Yes or no?
> 
> Time to Cut & Run boys!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup. KG says the same thing. Apparently, they got hit so many times with "If it's choice, when did YOU choose," so now they happily announce that they did choose.
> 
> However, nobody will tell me what sexual encounter they had that helped them make that choice. Making a choice without sampling the wares is not an informed choice.
Click to expand...


Interestingly enough, I had a friend who was a lesiban once, and she wasn't exactly sure that is what she wanted to be.  One day, she asked me if I would be willing to do her a favor, and I said sure, what is it?  She then asked me if I would have sex with her, because she wanted to make sure she was gay.  We spent quite a bit of time talking about it beforehand, because I wanted to make sure that our friendship wouldn't suffer because of the experiment.

Well, we got naked and started to kiss and such, and she was cool with that, but when penetration happened, she asked me if I could stop because "it didn't feel right".  We then got dressed and went back out to shoot pool.

Around 6 months or so, she wanted to repeat the experiment, and the same thing occurred.

Got news for you, it's not necessarily a "choice".


----------



## koshergrl

Because there is no sexual encounter that made anyone choose. If a sexual encounter MADE someone choose, then it's not a choice.

Don't you ever wonder why so many lesbians are the product of dysfunctional homes...usually where sex abuse has taken place?

Your sis wasn't born gay. She chose it.


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IndependntLogic said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!!!! I have the windbag on ignore because he is so consistently negative and never posts anything supported by facts (as displayed above) but sometimes the sheer stupidity of what he posts is so entertaining, I'm tempted to take him off!
> So now he is saying that he could just stop being attracted to women and "choose" to be turned on by looking naked men OR that it would be reasonable to ask him to just never act on the single strongest instinct he has.
> Hilarious!
> 
> So here's something I CAN'T do. It wouldn't matter how hard I tried, it wouldn't work. But with all the ConservaRepubs who get busted in gay acts, maybe it's different for them!
> 
> So here's the question that the whackjobs Cut & Run from every time:
> 
> Could you just choose to get an erection by fondling, oral, anal and other contact with male genetalia?
> Yes or no?
> 
> Time to Cut & Run boys!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. KG says the same thing. Apparently, they got hit so many times with "If it's choice, when did YOU choose," so now they happily announce that they did choose.
> 
> However, nobody will tell me what sexual encounter they had that helped them make that choice. Making a choice without sampling the wares is not an informed choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, I had a friend who was a lesiban once, and she wasn't exactly sure that is what she wanted to be.  One day, she asked me if I would be willing to do her a favor, and I said sure, what is it?  She then asked me if I would have sex with her, because she wanted to make sure she was gay.  We spent quite a bit of time talking about it beforehand, because I wanted to make sure that our friendship wouldn't suffer because of the experiment.
> 
> Well, we got naked and started to kiss and such, and she was cool with that, but when penetration happened, she asked me if I could stop because "it didn't feel right".  We then got dressed and went back out to shoot pool.
> 
> Around 6 months or so, she wanted to repeat the experiment, and the same thing occurred.
> 
> Got news for you, it's not necessarily a "choice".
Click to expand...

Lesbians will go straight when a real man get's ahold of them.

Your little wee-wee ain't going to impress any woman gay or not.


----------



## koshergrl

Oh I don't know about that...what's their motivation? They are lesbian because they are traumatized, and they aren't motivated enough to address those issues.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I arbitrarily decided that I find it OK for *two consenting adults* to have sexual relations, and arbitrarily decided that it was not OK for *an adult to force a kid* to have sex?
> 
> Or am I misreading your comment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well... what are your thoughts on it? Do you consider both pedophilia and homosexuality to be diseases?
Click to expand...


I don't consider either one to be a disease. However, being that I am morally superior to anyone I decide I am morally superior to, I will kill any pedophile I ever catch messing around with any child, I would consider it a service to the universe.

All I am doing here is pointing out that there are people who haven't actually thought this through and that their position is a result of not accepting the fact that they are being arbitrary. I don't actually have a problem with them being arbitrary, I just want them to realize it.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

IndependntLogic said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what you did, and you should admit it. Even if sexual attraction is not a choice, which is debatable despite all the people lining up with the high minded intent to rob us of free will, people still have a choice in what they do. Either that, or everything we do has been laid out since the beginning of time. Either way, it makes no sense to argue that pedophilia is a disease and homosexuality isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Well... what are your thoughts on it? Do you consider both pedophilia and homosexuality to be diseases?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL!!!! I have the windbag on ignore because he is so consistently negative and never posts anything supported by facts (as displayed above) but sometimes the sheer stupidity of what he posts is so entertaining, I'm tempted to take him off!
> So now he is saying that he could just stop being attracted to women and "choose" to be turned on by looking naked men OR that it would be reasonable to ask him to just never act on the single strongest instinct he has.
> Hilarious!
> 
> So here's something I CAN'T do. It wouldn't matter how hard I tried, it wouldn't work. But with all the ConservaRepubs who get busted in gay acts, maybe it's different for them!
> 
> So here's the question that the whackjobs Cut & Run from every time:
> 
> Could you just choose to get an erection by fondling, oral, anal and other contact with male genetalia?
> Yes or no?
> 
> Time to Cut & Run boys!
Click to expand...


Yet I managed to win over Cenotaph with logic and persuasion. Maybe the problem here isn't me, it just might be you.

For the record, since I chose to be heterosexual, I have never once had a problem getting an erection from nothing but fondling male genitalia. The fact that they happened to be my own is irrelevant, but it does prove that you can't actually build a logical trap.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

BDBoop said:


> IndependntLogic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well... what are your thoughts on it? Do you consider both pedophilia and homosexuality to be diseases?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!!!! I have the windbag on ignore because he is so consistently negative and never posts anything supported by facts (as displayed above) but sometimes the sheer stupidity of what he posts is so entertaining, I'm tempted to take him off!
> So now he is saying that he could just stop being attracted to women and "choose" to be turned on by looking naked men OR that it would be reasonable to ask him to just never act on the single strongest instinct he has.
> Hilarious!
> 
> So here's something I CAN'T do. It wouldn't matter how hard I tried, it wouldn't work. But with all the ConservaRepubs who get busted in gay acts, maybe it's different for them!
> 
> So here's the question that the whackjobs Cut & Run from every time:
> 
> Could you just choose to get an erection by fondling, oral, anal and other contact with male genetalia?
> Yes or no?
> 
> Time to Cut & Run boys!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup. KG says the same thing. Apparently, they got hit so many times with "If it's choice, when did YOU choose," so now they happily announce that they did choose.
> 
> However, nobody will tell me what sexual encounter they had that helped them make that choice. Making a choice without sampling the wares is not an informed choice.
Click to expand...


What makes you think I did not sample the wares?


----------



## IndependntLogic

Sunni Man said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. KG says the same thing. Apparently, they got hit so many times with "If it's choice, when did YOU choose," so now they happily announce that they did choose.
> 
> However, nobody will tell me what sexual encounter they had that helped them make that choice. Making a choice without sampling the wares is not an informed choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, I had a friend who was a lesiban once, and she wasn't exactly sure that is what she wanted to be.  One day, she asked me if I would be willing to do her a favor, and I said sure, what is it?  She then asked me if I would have sex with her, because she wanted to make sure she was gay.  We spent quite a bit of time talking about it beforehand, because I wanted to make sure that our friendship wouldn't suffer because of the experiment.
> 
> Well, we got naked and started to kiss and such, and she was cool with that, but when penetration happened, she asked me if I could stop because "it didn't feel right".  We then got dressed and went back out to shoot pool.
> 
> Around 6 months or so, she wanted to repeat the experiment, and the same thing occurred.
> 
> Got news for you, it's not necessarily a "choice".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lesbians will go straight when a real man get's ahold of them.
> 
> Your little wee-wee ain't going to impress any woman gay or not.
Click to expand...


LOL! I LOVE this kind of post! If ignorance could be converted to energy, this guy could light NYC for a year! 
That's right! If only lesbians could spend a night with Sunni Man, they would be cured! 
Oh and here's another thing: What will definitely "cure" a lesbian is just a matter of finding a man with a big enough dick! 
Of course, the law of compensation makes clear what is going on with men who frequently need to discuss size, doesn't it... 
Poor Sunni! he's brought it up several times in this thread already


----------



## PredFan

Technically, he said "a real man", he didn't say that HE was a real man.


----------



## IndependntLogic

PredFan said:


> Technically, he said "a real man", he didn't say that HE was a real man.



LOL! That's true!  real man would have never posted such compensating rubbish in the first place. 
I stand corrected, sir.


----------



## BDBoop

IndependntLogic said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, I had a friend who was a lesiban once, and she wasn't exactly sure that is what she wanted to be.  One day, she asked me if I would be willing to do her a favor, and I said sure, what is it?  She then asked me if I would have sex with her, because she wanted to make sure she was gay.  We spent quite a bit of time talking about it beforehand, because I wanted to make sure that our friendship wouldn't suffer because of the experiment.
> 
> Well, we got naked and started to kiss and such, and she was cool with that, but when penetration happened, she asked me if I could stop because "it didn't feel right".  We then got dressed and went back out to shoot pool.
> 
> Around 6 months or so, she wanted to repeat the experiment, and the same thing occurred.
> 
> Got news for you, it's not necessarily a "choice".
> 
> 
> 
> Lesbians will go straight when a real man get's ahold of them.
> 
> Your little wee-wee ain't going to impress any woman gay or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL! I LOVE this kind of post! If ignorance could be converted to energy, this guy could light NYC for a year!
> That's right! If only lesbians could spend a night with Sunni Man, they would be cured!
> Oh and here's another thing: What will definitely "cure" a lesbian is just a matter of finding a man with a big enough dick!
> Of course, the law of compensation makes clear what is going on with men who frequently need to discuss size, doesn't it...
> Poor Sunni! he's brought it up several times in this thread already
Click to expand...


You MOCK HIS PAIN!!! 

/sob


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Cenotaph said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
Click to expand...


Especially since there's a huge body of evidence that it NOT a choice.

Nonetheless, the real bottom line here is that

*ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. *

Yeah, I know, if you're rw, you think you have the right to control what every American does and with whom, AND, you're more than willing to vote for any number of laws to force your opinion on every American who might disagree with you, but you're wrong.

I'm so sick of crazy rw's telling us how they want smaller government when, IN FACT, what they want is any number of laws that it takes for them to control the rest of us. 

In case you missed it -

*ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. *


----------



## Luddly Neddite

> Lesbians will go straight when a real man get's ahold of them.



You rw's are just plain nuts.


----------



## koshergrl

There isn't any body of evidence that proves it's not a choice, dingbat. That's why the APA had to change their explanation of homosexuality. They used to say it was hardwired..and they had to recant. Because there's zero evidence.


----------



## MaryL

I remember when actual certified doctors of medical science used to endorse cigarettes as healthy. Fact. I wonder what the AMA has to say on the subject of homosexuality? Recently , AMA President, Dr Kerryn Phelps declared  "Homophobia" is a significant health issue..... Quack quack. Anyone care for a smoke?


----------



## Cenotaph

A lot of you need to calm down and stick to the topic of the thread.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

koshergrl said:


> There isn't any body of evidence that proves it's not a choice, dingbat. That's why the APA had to change their explanation of homosexuality. They used to say it was hardwired..and they had to recant. Because there's zero evidence.



And fortunately there doesnt need to be any evidence, whether by choice by nature is Constitutionally irrelevant. The right to privacy prohibits government interference in citizens personal decisions, including with whom they are intimate. And that right isnt mitigated even if homosexuality is a choice.


----------



## PredFan

luddly.neddite said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Especially since there's a huge body of evidence that it NOT a choice.
> 
> Nonetheless, the real bottom line here is that
> 
> *ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. *
> 
> Yeah, I know, if you're rw, you think you have the right to control what every American does and with whom, AND, you're more than willing to vote for any number of laws to force your opinion on every American who might disagree with you, but you're wrong.
> 
> I'm so sick of crazy rw's telling us how they want smaller government when, IN FACT, what they want is any number of laws that it takes for them to control the rest of us.
> 
> In case you missed it -
> 
> *ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. *
Click to expand...


Sniff sniff...there's that smell again.


----------



## koshergrl

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't any body of evidence that proves it's not a choice, dingbat. That's why the APA had to change their explanation of homosexuality. They used to say it was hardwired..and they had to recant. Because there's zero evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And fortunately there doesnt need to be any evidence, whether by choice by nature is Constitutionally irrelevant. The right to privacy prohibits government interference in citizens personal decisions, including with whom they are intimate. And that right isnt mitigated even if homosexuality is a choice.
Click to expand...


So why do you keep bringing it up?

I don't give a shit who you bang.


----------



## Cenotaph

koshergrl said:


> Oh I don't know about that...what's their motivation? They are lesbian because they are traumatized, and they aren't motivated enough to address those issues.


1.) Is there any evidence that supports this claim?
2.) Are you implying that it is a psychological disorder? 

It seems rather similar to the theories formed by psychologists during the 1960s... exhibited in this documentary:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFSCPTZLxGs]CBS Documentary - The Homosexuals (1967) - YouTube[/ame]




koshergrl said:


> There isn't any body of evidence that proves it's not a choice, dingbat. That's why the APA had to change their explanation of homosexuality. They used to say it was hardwired..and they had to recant. Because there's zero evidence.


There isn't any body of valid, conclusive scientific evidence that supports it's a choice either.


----------



## koshergrl

I get tired of the homosexual lobby lying and saying that there are mountains of evidence that supports the theory that it's hardwired.


----------



## Cenotaph

koshergrl said:


> I get tired of the homosexual lobby lying and saying that there are mountains of evidence that supports the theory that it's hardwired.



Okay, great, but how is that relevant to the questions I asked?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

luddly.neddite said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a homo is a choice; a pathetic choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any scientific evidence to support this claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Especially since there's a huge body of evidence that it NOT a choice.
> 
> Nonetheless, the real bottom line here is that
> 
> *ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. *
> 
> Yeah, I know, if you're rw, you think you have the right to control what every American does and with whom, AND, you're more than willing to vote for any number of laws to force your opinion on every American who might disagree with you, but you're wrong.
> 
> I'm so sick of crazy rw's telling us how they want smaller government when, IN FACT, what they want is any number of laws that it takes for them to control the rest of us.
> 
> In case you missed it -
> 
> *ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. *
Click to expand...


Yet you keep talking about it.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't any body of evidence that proves it's not a choice, dingbat. That's why the APA had to change their explanation of homosexuality. They used to say it was hardwired..and they had to recant. Because there's zero evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And fortunately there doesnt need to be any evidence, whether by choice by nature is Constitutionally irrelevant. The right to privacy prohibits government interference in citizens personal decisions, including with whom they are intimate. And that right isnt mitigated even if homosexuality is a choice.
Click to expand...


And is completely irrelevant to the point we are discussing.


----------



## Cenotaph

Quantum Windbag said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't any body of evidence that proves it's not a choice, dingbat. That's why the APA had to change their explanation of homosexuality. They used to say it was hardwired..and they had to recant. Because there's zero evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And fortunately there doesnt need to be any evidence, whether by choice by nature is Constitutionally irrelevant. The right to privacy prohibits government interference in citizens personal decisions, including with whom they are intimate. And that right isnt mitigated even if homosexuality is a choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And is completely irrelevant to the point we are discussing.
Click to expand...


Yea, it's becoming tiresome having to state this over and over again.


----------



## koshergrl

It is irrelevant, so one wonders why the homosexual lobby ppl keep insisting homosexuality is hardwired.

It obviously is important to them that people believe this lie.

But then, they aren't big on accountability at any rate.


----------



## Cenotaph

koshergrl said:


> It is irrelevant, so one wonders why the homosexual lobby ppl keep insisting homosexuality is hardwired.
> 
> It obviously is important to them that people believe this lie.
> 
> But then, they aren't big on accountability at any rate.



And how is it a lie?


----------



## koshergrl

It's a lie when you say stupid things like "there are mountains of evidence that indicate that..."


----------



## Cenotaph

koshergrl said:


> It's a lie when you say stupid things like "there are mountains of evidence that indicate that..."



So you weren't implying that the idea sexual orientation is hardwired into the brain is a lie, right? Because... why would you when there's no conclusive scientific evidence that supports either position.

Now, please answer the questions I stated earlier.


----------



## dsolo802

God makes homosexuals in all the primate species. It is the hubris of man to think God doesn't know what she is doing!


----------



## dsolo802

Cenotaph said:


> So you weren't implying that the idea sexual orientation is hardwired into the brain is a lie, right? Because... why would you when there's no conclusive scientific evidence that supports either position.
> 
> Now, please answer the questions I stated earlier.


There is no conclusive evidence that you are not dreaming you are awake- even now as you are reading this. And yet we, who are in your dream, are all forced to conclude that you are awake.

Homosexuality existing in every primate species and the Bonobos in particular pretty conclusively demonstrates that homosexuality is not the exclusive product of the homosexual "agenda".


----------



## dsolo802

> And how is it a lie?


How indeed!


----------



## koshergrl

Cenotaph said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a lie when you say stupid things like "there are mountains of evidence that indicate that..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you weren't implying that the idea sexual orientation is hardwired into the brain is a lie, right? Because... why would you when there's no conclusive scientific evidence that supports either position.
> 
> Now, please answer the questions I stated earlier.
Click to expand...


What questions?

It's not hardwired. If it was hardwired, there would be evidence of it, and there's not. You can't prove a negative, however. But the lie I was referring to was the lie that sexuality IS hardwired.


----------



## koshergrl

dsolo802 said:


> God makes homosexuals in all the primate species. It is the hubris of man to think God doesn't know what she is doing!



Where did that come from? Nobody said God didn't know what he's doing.


----------



## Cenotaph

koshergrl said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a lie when you say stupid things like "there are mountains of evidence that indicate that..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you weren't implying that the idea sexual orientation is hardwired into the brain is a lie, right? Because... why would you when there's no conclusive scientific evidence that supports either position.
> 
> Now, please answer the questions I stated earlier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What questions?
> 
> It's not hardwired. If it was hardwired, there would be evidence of it, and there's not. You can't prove a negative, however. But the lie I was referring to was the lie that sexuality IS hardwired.
Click to expand...


You can't say it's not hardwired because we don't know what causes sexual orientation... nor can I or anyone else say it _is_ hardwired. You're the one jumping to conclusions stating that lesbianism is the product of psychological trauma without any evidence, which is why I asked these questions:



Cenotaph said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I don't know about that...what's their motivation? They are lesbian because they are traumatized, and they aren't motivated enough to address those issues.
> 
> 
> 
> *1.) Is there any evidence that supports this claim?
> 2.) Are you implying that it is a psychological disorder? *
> 
> It seems rather similar to the theories formed by psychologists during the 1960s... exhibited in this documentary:
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFSCPTZLxGs]CBS Documentary - The Homosexuals (1967) - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...


You also stated this:


koshergrl said:


> Don't you ever wonder why so many lesbians are the product of dysfunctional homes...usually where sex abuse has taken place?


Is there any valid proof supporting that many lesbians come from dysfunctional families?


----------



## koshergrl

I don't know. I was speaking from my own experience...which is that  most of the lesbians I know were exposed to substantial abuse when they were young.


----------



## Dante

Cenotaph said:


> This is somewhat inspired by Maxcha's thread, which... instead of arguing the morality (silly word) of homosexuality, we're arguing in what _causes_ it.
> 
> Is it genetic, hormonal, or psychological... or possibly a combination of two or three?
> 
> From the evidence I have seen, it seems to be pointing towards hormones. There have been specific twin studies over the past few years that examine sets of twins with differing sexual orientations. Each set of twins are genetically identical and have experienced (relatively) uniform environmental settings. If this is true, the "nurture" aspect of psychological development is omitted with just "nature" left... Since it's not genetic (in this instance), then maybe it's hormonal?
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> By the way, if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.



behaviour/nurture affects hormones


----------



## Cenotaph

Dante said:


> behaviour affects hormones



I've heard of hormones affecting behavior, but not the other way around. How do you come to this conclusion?

EDIT: Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I was alluding to studies made in how the environmental settings of the womb might effect hormones during prenatal development (which are found in the videos I posted).


----------



## Dante

Cenotaph said:


> ... if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.



is the OP being held to the standard laid out in the OP?


----------



## Cenotaph

Dante said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is the OP being held to the standard laid out in the OP?
Click to expand...


As I previously mentioned, my comment the studies related to hormones is backed by the videos I posted. 

However, when/if you read through some of the discussion that has occurred in this thread, then you'll find that I refuted my statement in how sexual orientation is a not a choice due to the fact that causes for sexual orientation have yet to be determined.

EDIT:However, my _personal_ belief about how sexual orientation is not a choice still stands, but my viewpoint based on _scientific findings_ still remains undetermined (which, in my opinion, is the more valid perspective out of the two).


----------



## Dante

Cenotaph said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is the OP being held to the standard laid out in the OP?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I previously mentioned, my comment the studies related to hormones is backed by the videos I posted.
> 
> However, when/if you read through some of the discussion that has occurred in this thread, then you'll find that I refuted my statement in how sexual orientation is a not a choice due to the fact that causes for sexual orientation have yet to be determined.
Click to expand...


Fetishes and serial rapists and serial sex murderers --- they have orientations. What do you think causes them?

I'll go out on a limb...attractions during sexual awakening/hormonal awakening in adolescence -- explains lots.


----------



## Cenotaph

Dante said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> is the OP being held to the standard laid out in the OP?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I previously mentioned, my comment the studies related to hormones is backed by the videos I posted.
> 
> However, when/if you read through some of the discussion that has occurred in this thread, then you'll find that I refuted my statement in how sexual orientation is a not a choice due to the fact that causes for sexual orientation have yet to be determined.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fetishes and serial rapists and serial sex murderers --- they have orientations. What do you think causes them?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb...attractions during sexual awakening/hormonal awakening in adolescence -- explains lots.
Click to expand...


I know nothing about the causes for sexual fetishes, but I don't understand how serial sex murders could be an orientation. Would you mind explaining the latter?


----------



## Dante

Cenotaph said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I previously mentioned, my comment the studies related to hormones is backed by the videos I posted.
> 
> However, when/if you read through some of the discussion that has occurred in this thread, then you'll find that I refuted my statement in how sexual orientation is a not a choice due to the fact that causes for sexual orientation have yet to be determined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fetishes and serial rapists and serial sex murderers --- they have orientations. What do you think causes them?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb...attractions during sexual awakening/hormonal awakening in adolescence -- explains lots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know nothing about the causes for sexual fetishes, but I don't understand how serial sex murders could be an orientation. Would you mind explaining the latter?
Click to expand...


Sexual deviancy. We do know that many serial murderers who had sexual fetishes developed these interests during early stages of adolescence. Jeff Dahmer for one spoke often about arousal during dismembering of small animals. Many fetish practitioners speak of a sexual attraction to body parts or objects occurring during adolescence -- a time when sexual impulses start appearing. People often conflate feelings of attraction into obsessions.

I agree sexual attraction is no genetic thing, but that does not preclude believing sexual preference doesn't get 'hardwired' during times of psycho-sexual development


----------



## ABikerSailor

koshergrl said:


> I don't know. I was speaking from my own experience...which is that  most of the lesbians I know were exposed to substantial abuse when they were young.



So..................your whole stance is that because it happened to you, it has to happen to others?

Not everyone is as stupid as you Kosher Twit, AKA , Always A Babbling Bitch.

Try again Kaiser Twat.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I previously mentioned, my comment the studies related to hormones is backed by the videos I posted.
> 
> However, when/if you read through some of the discussion that has occurred in this thread, then you'll find that I refuted my statement in how sexual orientation is a not a choice due to the fact that causes for sexual orientation have yet to be determined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fetishes and serial rapists and serial sex murderers --- they have orientations. What do you think causes them?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb...attractions during sexual awakening/hormonal awakening in adolescence -- explains lots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know nothing about the causes for sexual fetishes, but I don't understand how serial sex murders could be an orientation. Would you mind explaining the latter?
Click to expand...


Sexual sadism is a fetish, not all sexual sadists are murderers, or even rapists.


----------



## Dante

Quantum Windbag said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fetishes and serial rapists and serial sex murderers --- they have orientations. What do you think causes them?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb...attractions during sexual awakening/hormonal awakening in adolescence -- explains lots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know nothing about the causes for sexual fetishes, but I don't understand how serial sex murders could be an orientation. Would you mind explaining the latter?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sexual sadism is a fetish, not all sexual sadists are murderers, or even rapists.
Click to expand...


And not all gay men are cock suckers.


----------



## Dante

Quick, what is your safe word?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Dante said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know nothing about the causes for sexual fetishes, but I don't understand how serial sex murders could be an orientation. Would you mind explaining the latter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sexual sadism is a fetish, not all sexual sadists are murderers, or even rapists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And not all gay men are cock suckers.
Click to expand...


That is actually true.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Dante said:


> Quick, what is your safe word?



It varies.


----------



## koshergrl

Dante said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is somewhat inspired by Maxcha's thread, which... instead of arguing the morality (silly word) of homosexuality, we're arguing in what _causes_ it.
> 
> Is it genetic, hormonal, or psychological... or possibly a combination of two or three?
> 
> From the evidence I have seen, it seems to be pointing towards hormones. There have been specific twin studies over the past few years that examine sets of twins with differing sexual orientations. Each set of twins are genetically identical and have experienced (relatively) uniform environmental settings. If this is true, the "nurture" aspect of psychological development is omitted with just "nature" left... Since it's not genetic (in this instance), then maybe it's hormonal?
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> By the way, if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> behaviour/nurture affects hormones
Click to expand...


Yup.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is irrelevant, so one wonders why the homosexual lobby ppl keep insisting homosexuality is hardwired.
> 
> It obviously is important to them that people believe this lie.
> 
> But then, they aren't big on accountability at any rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how is it a lie?
Click to expand...


It isn't supported by fact.  It is an opinion.  Being supported by fact would make it true.  Being an opinion makes it neither lie nor truth.  But many supporters of the opinion that homosexuality is "genetic" present it as fact and demand that it be accepted as fact by others who do not feel the same way.  Supporters are more than willing to bring the weight of government into play in order to force others to accept what they claim as truth.  Tyranny will tend to bring forth opposition that might otherwise not exist.


----------



## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a lie when you say stupid things like "there are mountains of evidence that indicate that..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you weren't implying that the idea sexual orientation is hardwired into the brain is a lie, right? Because... why would you when there's no conclusive scientific evidence that supports either position.
> 
> Now, please answer the questions I stated earlier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What questions?
> 
> It's not hardwired. If it was hardwired, there would be evidence of it, and there's not. You can't prove a negative, however. But the lie I was referring to was the lie that sexuality IS hardwired.
Click to expand...


You don't need to prove a negative, all you have to do is _believe_.  This should explain why libs eschew other religions.  They have their own beliefs.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> behaviour affects hormones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard of hormones affecting behavior, but not the other way around. How do you come to this conclusion?
> 
> EDIT: Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I was alluding to studies made in how the environmental settings of the womb might effect hormones during prenatal development (which are found in the videos I posted).
Click to expand...


Let's try to keep is simple enough:  Sexual determination is usually a function of recombination of genes from the male and female contributors.  In the case of sexual determination of the fetus, the female contributes only the X chromosome.  The male contributes either an X or a Y chromosome.  If the male chromosomal contribution contains an X chromosome, the offspring will be female.  If a Y chromosome is contributed, the offspring is male.  Nature made the choice relatively simple, you are either-or.  People later make the choice more complex.


----------



## Cenotaph

gallantwarrior said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is irrelevant, so one wonders why the homosexual lobby ppl keep insisting homosexuality is hardwired.
> 
> It obviously is important to them that people believe this lie.
> 
> But then, they aren't big on accountability at any rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how is it a lie?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It isn't supported by fact.  It is an opinion.  Being supported by fact would make it true.  Being an opinion makes it neither lie nor truth.  But many supporters of the opinion that homosexuality is "genetic" present it as fact and demand that it be accepted as fact by others who do not feel the same way.  Supporters are more than willing to bring the weight of government into play in order to force others to accept what they claim as truth.  Tyranny will tend to bring forth opposition that might otherwise not exist.
Click to expand...


Thank you for answering my question, but you are (again) deviating away from the thread's topic.



gallantwarrior said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> behaviour affects hormones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard of hormones affecting behavior, but not the other way around. How do you come to this conclusion?
> 
> EDIT: Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I was alluding to studies made in how the environmental settings of the womb might effect hormones during prenatal development (which are found in the videos I posted).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's try to keep is simple enough:  Sexual determination is usually a function of recombination of genes from the male and female contributors.  In the case of sexual determination of the fetus, the female contributes only the X chromosome.  The male contributes either an X or a Y chromosome.  If the male chromosomal contribution contains an X chromosome, the offspring will be female.  If a Y chromosome is contributed, the offspring is male.  Nature made the choice relatively simple, you are either-or.  People later make the choice more complex.
Click to expand...


How does this answer my question in how behavior determines hormonal growth?


----------



## koshergrl

"The results show that SS produces consistent patterns of hormonal and behavioral responses; some aspects of the patterns are similar to those elicited by other environmental stresses, whereas some aspects are unique to SS. We conclude that rats do not adapt to repeated SS but rather that most hormonal and behavioral defense mechanisms are renewable on a daily basis."
ScienceDirect.com - Physiology & Behavior - Single and Repeated Environmental Stress: Effect on Plasma Oxytocin, Corticosterone, Catecholamines, and Behavior

". Sustained Type A behavior patterns can lead to hyperadrenal activity, which stimulates secretion of high levels of glucocorticoids into the blood."

"*Type A behavior patterns* include characteristics such as impatience, rushing through activities and conversation, competitiveness, conscientiousness, reliability, high energy, and obsession with achievement. Coronary heart disease studies have established that sustained Type A behavior can raise the body's adrenal state to levels which produce potentially-harmful amounts of cortisol. (One study reported Type A participants with forty times more cortisol than their Type B counterparts.10)"

Glucorticoids and Secondary Stress as Causes of CSR

It has also been noted that sexual abuse of children can result in premature sexual maturation...specifically, girls who are molested over a sustained period of time, are more likely to start their periods and develop breasts at a very young age, compared to girls who aren't subjected to sustained sexual abuse.


----------



## koshergrl

"
As children, they had higher levels of cortisol, the so-called "stress hormone," which is released in high levels during the body&#8217;s "fight or flight" response. But by about age 15, testing showed that cortisol levels were below normal, compared to the control group. Lower levels of cortisol have been linked to a decrease in the body&#8217;s ability to deal with stress, as well as problems with depression and obesity. Lower levels of the hormone have also been linked to post-traumatic stress disorder. 
&#8220;The cortisol levels (of some study participants) wound up looking like Vietnam vets,&#8221; says study co-author Dr. Frank Putnam, professor of pediatrics and psychiatry at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center. &#8220;That tells us they are in a chronic state of stress, and never feel safe.&#8221; 
During the last assessment, when study participants were in their 20s, their cortisol levels remained lower than the control group, on average. &#8220;That tells us their stress response system is burned out,&#8221; says Putman, which could explain why some are doing so poorly in life.&#8221; 

Effects of sexual abuse last for decades, study finds - Health - Health care - More health news - msnbc.com


----------



## bayoubill

Cenotaph said:


> Sexual Orientation: What are it's causes?



mostly 'cause God wants us to make babies...


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> And how is it a lie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't supported by fact.  It is an opinion.  Being supported by fact would make it true.  Being an opinion makes it neither lie nor truth.  But many supporters of the opinion that homosexuality is "genetic" present it as fact and demand that it be accepted as fact by others who do not feel the same way.  Supporters are more than willing to bring the weight of government into play in order to force others to accept what they claim as truth.  Tyranny will tend to bring forth opposition that might otherwise not exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for answering my question, but you are (again) deviating away from the thread's topic.
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard of hormones affecting behavior, but not the other way around. How do you come to this conclusion?
> 
> EDIT: Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I was alluding to studies made in how the environmental settings of the womb might effect hormones during prenatal development (which are found in the videos I posted).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's try to keep is simple enough:  Sexual determination is usually a function of recombination of genes from the male and female contributors.  In the case of sexual determination of the fetus, the female contributes only the X chromosome.  The male contributes either an X or a Y chromosome.  If the male chromosomal contribution contains an X chromosome, the offspring will be female.  If a Y chromosome is contributed, the offspring is male.  Nature made the choice relatively simple, you are either-or.  People later make the choice more complex.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does this answer my question in how behavior determines hormonal growth?
Click to expand...


I'm sorry, what part of "sexual orientation, what are its causes" am I _not[/I addressing?  Of course, you want someone to give some psychobabble excuse why an animal that was equipped by nature for one gender identification chooses to identify as the opposite gender.  Sorry, I don't buy the "nature" concept.  It's all "nurture" babycakes.  It's a choice a person makes, for a variety of reasons.  Some are so torn by their choice that they will even commit extreme self-mutilation in order to validate their choice.
Why a human makes such a choice?  I've covered that in other posts._


----------



## Cenotaph

gallantwarrior said:


> I'm sorry, what part of "sexual orientation, what are its causes" am I _not[/I addressing?_


_

The bolded segment of your comment does not address the causes of sexual orientation:


gallantwarrior said:



			It isn't supported by fact.  It is an opinion.  Being supported by fact would make it true.  Being an opinion makes it neither lie nor truth. But many supporters of the opinion that homosexuality is "genetic" present it as fact and demand that it be accepted as fact by others who do not feel the same way.  * Supporters are more than willing to bring the weight of government into play in order to force others to accept what they claim as truth.  Tyranny will tend to bring forth opposition that might otherwise not exist.*

Click to expand...






			Of course, you want someone to give some psychobabble excuse why an animal that was equipped by nature for one gender identification chooses to identify as the opposite gender.  Sorry, I don't buy the "nature" concept.  It's all "nurture" babycakes.  It's a choice a person makes, for a variety of reasons.  Some are so torn by their choice that they will even commit extreme self-mutilation in order to validate their choice.
		
Click to expand...


... and you have no conclusive scientific evidence that supports that it is a choice. Therefore, your belief is irrelevant in this context (as is mine).




			Why a human makes such a choice?  I've covered that in other posts.
		
Click to expand...


Would you mind quoting or sharing a link to these comments? I'm interested in your opinion on why one would make the choice to be a homosexual._


----------



## Vidi

gallantwarrior said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't supported by fact.  It is an opinion.  Being supported by fact would make it true.  Being an opinion makes it neither lie nor truth.  But many supporters of the opinion that homosexuality is "genetic" present it as fact and demand that it be accepted as fact by others who do not feel the same way.  Supporters are more than willing to bring the weight of government into play in order to force others to accept what they claim as truth.  Tyranny will tend to bring forth opposition that might otherwise not exist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for answering my question, but you are (again) deviating away from the thread's topic.
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's try to keep is simple enough:  Sexual determination is usually a function of recombination of genes from the male and female contributors.  In the case of sexual determination of the fetus, the female contributes only the X chromosome.  The male contributes either an X or a Y chromosome.  If the male chromosomal contribution contains an X chromosome, the offspring will be female.  If a Y chromosome is contributed, the offspring is male.  Nature made the choice relatively simple, you are either-or.  People later make the choice more complex.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does this answer my question in how behavior determines hormonal growth?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, what part of "sexual orientation, what are its causes" am I _not[/I addressing?  Of course, you want someone to give some psychobabble excuse why an animal that was equipped by nature for one gender identification chooses to identify as the opposite gender.  Sorry, I don't buy the "nature" concept.  It's all "nurture" babycakes.  It's a choice a person makes, for a variety of reasons.  Some are so torn by their choice that they will even commit extreme self-mutilation in order to validate their choice.
> Why a human makes such a choice?  I've covered that in other posts._
Click to expand...

_

Possibly not.

Sorry but youre making the same "tyrannical" statement that youre accusing others of making. Youre saying its a choice, as an absolute. It MAY not be a choice, it may be, but we DONT KNOW conclusively.

What we DO KNOW is that the amount of testosterone a fetus recieves during pregnancy does effects its physiology ( both finger length and penis size are directly correlated to it ) We also KNOW that all fetuses begin as an undetermined sex and are only assigned later in gestation once the chromosomes are actually taken into account. In other words, the genetic program says build a basic human being which it does and then in later development says OH ok now we have to determine gender. A fetus is also bombarded with various hormones ( testosterone and estrogen just to name a couple ) that change its physical attributes ( not just gender ).

Thats what we KNOW.

Its being theorized and tested that the timing of those hormonal bombardments ( and the amount of each hormone in the bombardments ) may effect personality and sexuality as well. And this data looks like its going to be proven out. Its meeting the right criteria to be considered hard and correct science. If this turns out to be the case, ( which it maynot be. Other promising science turned out to be wrong when other discoveries were made ) then it is more than likely that sexual preference is NOT a choice._


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, what part of "sexual orientation, what are its causes" am I _not[/I addressing?_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> The bolded segment of your comment does not address the causes of sexual orientation:
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't supported by fact.  It is an opinion.  Being supported by fact would make it true.  Being an opinion makes it neither lie nor truth. But many supporters of the opinion that homosexuality is "genetic" present it as fact and demand that it be accepted as fact by others who do not feel the same way.  * Supporters are more than willing to bring the weight of government into play in order to force others to accept what they claim as truth.  Tyranny will tend to bring forth opposition that might otherwise not exist.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, you want someone to give some psychobabble excuse why an animal that was equipped by nature for one gender identification chooses to identify as the opposite gender.  Sorry, I don't buy the "nature" concept.  It's all "nurture" babycakes.  It's a choice a person makes, for a variety of reasons.  Some are so torn by their choice that they will even commit extreme self-mutilation in order to validate their choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ... and you have no conclusive scientific evidence that supports that it is a choice. Therefore, your belief is irrelevant in this context (as is mine).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a human makes such a choice?  I've covered that in other posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would you mind quoting or sharing a link to these comments? I'm interested in your opinion on why one would make the choice to be a homosexual._
Click to expand...

_

OK, here's my thoughts on why a human makes such a choice:
Humans use sex as more than simply a vehicle for reproduction.  We have attached many complex emotional meanings to copulation.  One thing equated with sex is the concept of love.  We use sex and physical intimacy to express love for our partner.  I do not believe that deep emotional attachments, often identified as "love", are limited to those of the opposite gender.  While most humans manage to maintain attachments to those of the same gender without expressing their feelings sexually, some prefer to carry over their feelings of attachment, using sex to proclaim and express their "love".  
Humans are also capable of using sex to manipulate and hurt others, as well.

Am I against homosexuality?  No.  I have no problem with adults expressing their affection for one another in any way they deem mutually appropriate.   While there may be some various environmental influences in how or why a person makes a certain choice, currently available information would indicate that biology predisposes a person to being male or female._


----------



## gallantwarrior

Vidi said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for answering my question, but you are (again) deviating away from the thread's topic.
> 
> 
> 
> How does this answer my question in how behavior determines hormonal growth?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, what part of "sexual orientation, what are its causes" am I _not[/I addressing?  Of course, you want someone to give some psychobabble excuse why an animal that was equipped by nature for one gender identification chooses to identify as the opposite gender.  Sorry, I don't buy the "nature" concept.  It's all "nurture" babycakes.  It's a choice a person makes, for a variety of reasons.  Some are so torn by their choice that they will even commit extreme self-mutilation in order to validate their choice.
> Why a human makes such a choice?  I've covered that in other posts._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _
> 
> Possibly not.
> 
> Sorry but youre making the same "tyrannical" statement that youre accusing others of making. Youre saying its a choice, as an absolute. It MAY not be a choice, it may be, but we DONT KNOW conclusively.
> 
> What we DO KNOW is that the amount of testosterone a fetus recieves during pregnancy does effects its physiology ( both finger length and penis size are directly correlated to it ) We also KNOW that all fetuses begin as an undetermined sex and are only assigned later in gestation once the chromosomes are actually taken into account. In other words, the genetic program says build a basic human being which it does and then in later development says OH ok now we have to determine gender. A fetus is also bombarded with various hormones ( testosterone and estrogen just to name a couple ) that change its physical attributes ( not just gender ).
> 
> Thats what we KNOW.
> 
> Its being theorized and tested that the timing of those hormonal bombardments ( and the amount of each hormone in the bombardments ) may effect personality and sexuality as well. And this data looks like its going to be proven out. Its meeting the right criteria to be considered hard and correct science. If this turns out to be the case, ( which it maynot be. Other promising science turned out to be wrong when other discoveries were made ) then it is more than likely that sexual preference is NOT a choice._
Click to expand...

_

Unfortunately, even the scientific community has been compromised by today's politics._


----------



## MikeK

Sunni Man said:


> It doesn't take a scientific study to figure out.
> 
> That it's a "choice" for two guys to pack each others fudge.
> 
> It's does not happen by accident.


In accordance with your strong belief that one's sexual orientation is a matter of choice I will assume you have chosen to be heterosexual.  Do you recall making that choice?  If not, what do you base your belief on?

If you _do_ recall choosing to be heterosexual, do you feel you could now reverse that choice and find men sexually attractive instead of women?  If you do not feel (believe) you could be attracted to men does that not disprove your theory of choice?

But if you _do_ feel you could be attracted to men would that not logically suggest latent bisexuality and account for your theory of choice?  

Please understand this is not a tricky syllogism intended to present a smart-ass argument.  Rather it is a very simple exercise in logical thinking intended to question your belief in choice.


----------



## Sunni Man

People are born; male and female, with the sexual equipment to procreate. 

That's a given; basic biology. Men for women and women for men. 

It's nature, natural, and normal.

When people go against that; then it's a choice, and is abnormal.

Quite simple when you think about it.


----------



## Cenotaph

Sunni Man said:


> People are born; male and female, with the sexual equipment to procreate.
> 
> That's a given; basic biology. Men for women and women for men.
> 
> It's nature, natural, and normal.
> 
> When people go against that; then it's a choice, and is abnormal.
> 
> Quite simple when you think about it.



It deviates away from the norm, but that doesn't make it a choice... nor unnatural.


----------



## koshergrl

I don't think most people know what makes them gay.

I do know there's no evidence, except in a few rare instances, that it's anything physical or genetic.


----------



## Cenotaph

koshergrl said:


> I don't think most people know what makes them gay.
> 
> I do know there's no evidence, except in a few rare instances, that it's anything physical or genetic.



I believe you are correct. 

(I sure as hell don't know what makes me gay)


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think most people know what makes them gay.
> 
> I do know there's no evidence, except in a few rare instances, that it's anything physical or genetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you are correct.
> 
> (I sure as hell don't know what makes me gay)
Click to expand...


So you would rather be straight, if you had the choice?


----------



## Cenotaph

gallantwarrior said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think most people know what makes them gay.
> 
> I do know there's no evidence, except in a few rare instances, that it's anything physical or genetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you are correct.
> 
> (I sure as hell don't know what makes me gay)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you would rather be straight, if you had the choice?
Click to expand...


It would sure make dating a lot easier! I can't find many gay people down here (Alabama) because they're all in the closet.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Cenotaph said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you are correct.
> 
> (I sure as hell don't know what makes me gay)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you would rather be straight, if you had the choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It would sure make dating a lot easier! I can't find many gay people down here (Alabama) because they're all in the closet.
Click to expand...


Best reason to be bi-, you double your chances at getting a date...just sayin'


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cenotaph said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you are correct.
> 
> (I sure as hell don't know what makes me gay)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you would rather be straight, if you had the choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It would sure make dating a lot easier! I can't find many gay people down here (Alabama) because they're all in the closet.
Click to expand...


The ones I know are all older than you.


----------



## MikeK

Sunni Man said:


> People are born; male and female, with the sexual equipment to procreate.
> 
> That's a given; basic biology. Men for women and women for men.
> 
> It's nature, natural, and normal.
> 
> When people go against that; then it's a choice, and is abnormal.
> 
> Quite simple when you think about it.


But we're not talking about the equipment but rather the impetus to use it.  Where does that come from?  

Considering the social condemnation homosexuals are subjected to, why do you suppose anyone would choose that orientation?  

If you'd like to read a professional opinion on this subject, go here:  PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | QUANTITATIVE SEX HORMONE STUDIES IN HOMOSEXUALITY, CHILDHOOD, AND VARIOUS NEUROPSYCHIATRIC DISTURBANCES


----------



## gallantwarrior

MikeK said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> People are born; male and female, with the sexual equipment to procreate.
> 
> That's a given; basic biology. Men for women and women for men.
> 
> It's nature, natural, and normal.
> 
> When people go against that; then it's a choice, and is abnormal.
> 
> Quite simple when you think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> But we're not talking about the equipment but rather the impetus to use it.  Where does that come from?
> 
> Considering the social condemnation homosexuals are subjected to, why do you suppose anyone would choose that orientation?
> 
> If you'd like to read a professional opinion on this subject, go here:  PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | QUANTITATIVE SEX HORMONE STUDIES IN HOMOSEXUALITY, CHILDHOOD, AND VARIOUS NEUROPSYCHIATRIC DISTURBANCES
Click to expand...


I would suggest that in former times, people with such desires were forced to stay closeted due to general societal rejection of such activities.  In recent years, we have seen increasing glorification of such choices in the media, in the entertainment industry, in advertising.  A lot of people who would have remained "hidden" have now grasped the widespread media representation of their choice as being somehow glamorous and a desirable demonstration of how "cool" they are.  Straights are so uncool because they don't get it.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

MikeK said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> People are born; male and female, with the sexual equipment to procreate.
> 
> That's a given; basic biology. Men for women and women for men.
> 
> It's nature, natural, and normal.
> 
> When people go against that; then it's a choice, and is abnormal.
> 
> Quite simple when you think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> But we're not talking about the equipment but rather the impetus to use it.  Where does that come from?
> 
> Considering the social condemnation homosexuals are subjected to, why do you suppose anyone would choose that orientation?
> 
> If you'd like to read a professional opinion on this subject, go here:  PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | QUANTITATIVE SEX HORMONE STUDIES IN HOMOSEXUALITY, CHILDHOOD, AND VARIOUS NEUROPSYCHIATRIC DISTURBANCES
Click to expand...


You really should read the entire thread, there is no proof what causes sexual orientation.


----------



## koshergrl

Thank you. Share that with the homotards who continually carp "THERE'S MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE THAT CONFIRM THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS HARDWIRED/GENETIC/BIOLOGICAL/NOT A CHOICE!"


----------



## Vidi

gallantwarrior said:


> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, what part of "sexual orientation, what are its causes" am I _not[/I addressing?  Of course, you want someone to give some psychobabble excuse why an animal that was equipped by nature for one gender identification chooses to identify as the opposite gender.  Sorry, I don't buy the "nature" concept.  It's all "nurture" babycakes.  It's a choice a person makes, for a variety of reasons.  Some are so torn by their choice that they will even commit extreme self-mutilation in order to validate their choice.
> Why a human makes such a choice?  I've covered that in other posts._
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Possibly not.
> 
> Sorry but youre making the same "tyrannical" statement that youre accusing others of making. Youre saying its a choice, as an absolute. It MAY not be a choice, it may be, but we DONT KNOW conclusively.
> 
> What we DO KNOW is that the amount of testosterone a fetus recieves during pregnancy does effects its physiology ( both finger length and penis size are directly correlated to it ) We also KNOW that all fetuses begin as an undetermined sex and are only assigned later in gestation once the chromosomes are actually taken into account. In other words, the genetic program says build a basic human being which it does and then in later development says OH ok now we have to determine gender. A fetus is also bombarded with various hormones ( testosterone and estrogen just to name a couple ) that change its physical attributes ( not just gender ).
> 
> Thats what we KNOW.
> 
> Its being theorized and tested that the timing of those hormonal bombardments ( and the amount of each hormone in the bombardments ) may effect personality and sexuality as well. And this data looks like its going to be proven out. Its meeting the right criteria to be considered hard and correct science. If this turns out to be the case, ( which it maynot be. Other promising science turned out to be wrong when other discoveries were made ) then it is more than likely that sexual preference is NOT a choice._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _
> 
> Unfortunately, even the scientific community has been compromised by today's politics._
Click to expand...

_

In other words, any science that even hints that your opinion might be incorrect is tainted by politics?

Nice that way you dont even have to be wrong, do you?_


----------



## Vidi

koshergrl said:


> I don't think most people know what makes them gay.
> 
> I do know there's no evidence, except in a few rare instances, that it's anything physical or genetic.



Theres no CONCLUSIVE evidence. The operative word is CONCLUSIVE. 

Do you understand the difference between not conclusive and absolutely none at all?

There IS evidence, but not conclusive evidence. Stated REPEATEDLY in this thread, which youve obviously chosen to ignore because it conflicts with your hardwired opinion.


----------



## Vidi

gallantwarrior said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> People are born; male and female, with the sexual equipment to procreate.
> 
> That's a given; basic biology. Men for women and women for men.
> 
> It's nature, natural, and normal.
> 
> When people go against that; then it's a choice, and is abnormal.
> 
> Quite simple when you think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> But we're not talking about the equipment but rather the impetus to use it.  Where does that come from?
> 
> Considering the social condemnation homosexuals are subjected to, why do you suppose anyone would choose that orientation?
> 
> If you'd like to read a professional opinion on this subject, go here:  PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | QUANTITATIVE SEX HORMONE STUDIES IN HOMOSEXUALITY, CHILDHOOD, AND VARIOUS NEUROPSYCHIATRIC DISTURBANCES
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would suggest that in former times, people with such desires were forced to stay closeted due to general societal rejection of such activities.  In recent years, we have seen increasing glorification of such choices in the media, in the entertainment industry, in advertising.  A lot of people who would have remained "hidden" have now grasped the widespread media representation of their choice as being somehow glamorous and a desirable demonstration of how "cool" they are.  Straights are so uncool because they don't get it.
Click to expand...




I respectfully disagree. I dont see it as "glorification" but as acceptance or tolerance. A rejection of the stigma attached to it.


----------



## koshergrl

Vidi said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> But we're not talking about the equipment but rather the impetus to use it. Where does that come from?
> 
> Considering the social condemnation homosexuals are subjected to, why do you suppose anyone would choose that orientation?
> 
> If you'd like to read a professional opinion on this subject, go here: PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | QUANTITATIVE SEX HORMONE STUDIES IN HOMOSEXUALITY, CHILDHOOD, AND VARIOUS NEUROPSYCHIATRIC DISTURBANCES
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would suggest that in former times, people with such desires were forced to stay closeted due to general societal rejection of such activities. In recent years, we have seen increasing glorification of such choices in the media, in the entertainment industry, in advertising. A lot of people who would have remained "hidden" have now grasped the widespread media representation of their choice as being somehow glamorous and a desirable demonstration of how "cool" they are. Straights are so uncool because they don't get it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. I dont see it as "glorification" but as acceptance or tolerance. A rejection of the stigma attached to it.
Click to expand...

 
If by "rejection of the stigman", you mean "glorification" then you're right.


----------



## bayoubill

Cenotaph said:


> This is somewhat inspired by Maxcha's thread, which... instead of arguing the morality (silly word) of homosexuality, we're arguing in what _causes_ it.
> 
> Is it genetic, hormonal, or psychological... or possibly a combination of two or three?
> 
> From the evidence I have seen, it seems to be pointing towards hormones. There have been specific twin studies over the past few years that examine sets of twins with differing sexual orientations. Each set of twins are genetically identical and have experienced (relatively) uniform environmental settings. If this is true, the "nurture" aspect of psychological development is omitted with just "nature" left... Since it's not genetic (in this instance), then maybe it's hormonal?
> 
> Here's what I can say with a definite answer:
> 
> Sexual orientation is _not_ a choice.
> It's is _not_ unnatural... seeing that it's a phenomina that occurs in many other species (not just humans).
> By the way, if you're going to make a post in what your opinion is, then please leave links pointing towards evidence that supports your claim.
> 
> 
> [youtube]IoZoRbP-0WM[/youtube] [youtube]WTLAof9oXCI[/youtube] [youtube]RGnZgC47SLA[/youtube]



it's like anything else in nature... because of the hard-wired biological imperative to procreate, most males wanna fuck females... and most females wanna fuck males... 

but there are always exceptions to the rule... especially once the species evolves to the point where individuals are more concerned about getting their next Starbucks fix...


----------



## gallantwarrior

Vidi said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vidi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly not.
> 
> Sorry but youre making the same "tyrannical" statement that youre accusing others of making. Youre saying its a choice, as an absolute. It MAY not be a choice, it may be, but we DONT KNOW conclusively.
> 
> What we DO KNOW is that the amount of testosterone a fetus recieves during pregnancy does effects its physiology ( both finger length and penis size are directly correlated to it ) We also KNOW that all fetuses begin as an undetermined sex and are only assigned later in gestation once the chromosomes are actually taken into account. In other words, the genetic program says build a basic human being which it does and then in later development says OH ok now we have to determine gender. A fetus is also bombarded with various hormones ( testosterone and estrogen just to name a couple ) that change its physical attributes ( not just gender ).
> 
> Thats what we KNOW.
> 
> Its being theorized and tested that the timing of those hormonal bombardments ( and the amount of each hormone in the bombardments ) may effect personality and sexuality as well. And this data looks like its going to be proven out. Its meeting the right criteria to be considered hard and correct science. If this turns out to be the case, ( which it maynot be. Other promising science turned out to be wrong when other discoveries were made ) then it is more than likely that sexual preference is NOT a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, even the scientific community has been compromised by today's politics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words, any science that even hints that your opinion might be incorrect is tainted by politics?
> 
> Nice that way you dont even have to be wrong, do you?
Click to expand...


Not necessarily.  But I suggest that any scientific "evidence" be closely examined and verified.


----------



## ABikerSailor

koshergrl said:


> Thank you. Share that with the homotards who continually carp "THERE'S MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE THAT CONFIRM THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS HARDWIRED/GENETIC/BIOLOGICAL/NOT A CHOICE!"



Okay..............cool...............what's your answer to this?



> Scientists at the Karolinska Institute studied brain scans of 90 gay and straight men and women, and found that the size of the two symmetrical halves of the brains of gay men more closely resembled those of straight women than they did straight men. In heterosexual women, the two halves of the brain are more or less the same size. In heterosexual men, the right hemisphere is slightly larger. Scans of the brains of gay men in the study, however, showed that their hemispheres were relatively symmetrical, like those of straight women, while the brains of homosexual women were asymmetrical like those of straight men. The number of nerves connecting the two sides of the brains of gay men were also more like the number in heterosexual women than in straight men.
> 
> Just what these brain differences mean is still not clear. Ever since 1991, when Simon LeVay first documented differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight men, researchers have been struggling to understand what causes these differences to occur. Until now, the brain regions that scientists have come to believe play a role in sexual orientation have been related to either reproduction or sexuality. The Swedish study, however, is the first to find differences in parts of the brain not normally involved in reproduction  the denser network of nerve connections, for example, was found in the amygdala, known as the emotional center of the brain. "The big question has always been, if the brains of gay men are different, or feminized, as earlier research suggests," says Dr. Eric Vilain, professor of human genetics at University of California Los Angeles, "then is it just limited to sexual preference or are there other regions that are gender atypical in gay males? For the first time, in this study it looks like there are regions of the brain not directly involved in sexuality that seem to be feminized in gay males."
> 
> 
> Read more: What the Gay Brain Looks Like - TIME



Got anything to refute this?


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> Just what these brain differences mean is* still not clear.* Ever since 1991, when Simon LeVay first documented differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight men, researchers have been *struggling to understand *what causes these differences to occur. Until now, the brain regions that scientists have *come to believe *play a role in sexual orientation have been related to either reproduction or sexuality. The Swedish study, however, is the first to find differences in parts of the brain not normally involved in reproduction &#8212; the denser network of nerve connections, for example, was found in the amygdala, known as the emotional center of the brain. "*The big question *has always been, if the brains of gay men are different, or feminized, as earlier *research suggests*," says Dr. Eric Vilain, professor of human genetics at University of California Los Angeles, "then is it just limited to sexual preference or are there other regions that are gender atypical in gay males*?* For the first time, in this study i*t looks like* there are regions of the brain not directly involved in sexuality that* seem to be *feminized in gay males."
> 
> 
> Read more: What the Gay Brain Looks Like - TIME



Got anything to refute this?[/QUOTE]

There is nothing to refute.

All the researchers say is; maybe, seems like, could be, not clear, struggling to understand, ect.

In other words; they don't have a clue if this is related or not.


----------



## ekrem

Sunni Man said:


> Lesbians will go straight when a real man get's ahold of them.
> 
> Your little wee-wee ain't going to impress any woman gay or not.



Lesbians are more accepted in society than gay men.
In mankind's history there is/was always war and women need love.
Society can accept women loving women when there is shortage of men.


----------



## Dante

gallantwarrior said:


> Cenotaph said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> behaviour affects hormones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard of hormones affecting behavior, but not the other way around. How do you come to this conclusion?
> 
> EDIT: Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I was alluding to studies made in how the environmental settings of the womb might effect hormones during prenatal development (which are found in the videos I posted).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's try to keep is simple enough:  Sexual determination is usually a function of recombination of genes from the male and female contributors.  In the case of sexual determination of the fetus, the female contributes only the X chromosome.  The male contributes either an X or a Y chromosome.  If the male chromosomal contribution contains an X chromosome, the offspring will be female.  If a Y chromosome is contributed, the offspring is male.  Nature made the choice relatively simple, you are either-or.  *People later make the choice more complex.*
Click to expand...


nurture and on off switches of nature (genetic stuff) make choice more complex


----------



## Dante

ekrem said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lesbians will go straight when a real man get's ahold of them.
> 
> Your little wee-wee ain't going to impress any woman gay or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lesbians are more accepted in society than gay men.
> In mankind's history there is/was always war and women need love.
> Society can accept women loving women when there is shortage of men.
Click to expand...


It is overwhelmingly men who savagely beat gay people. Of course, it is the gayness of other men, that can turn an otherwise pathetic closet case into a savage loser.

Men who beat gays have very serious issues, since somebody elses gayness is a threat -- how?


----------



## koshergrl

Gays also savagely beat each other. Extremely high DV rate in the homosexual community.


----------



## Dante

koshergrl said:


> Gays also savagely beat each other. Extremely high DV rate in the homosexual community.



Gays savagely beat each other? No more so than heterosexual couples.

but to deny the appalling savagery of gay attacks is like denying the savagery of sexual sadists

the brutality stuns prosecutors, police and first responders and medical personnel


----------



## koshergrl

No, I think it's a higher incidence than hetero abuse.


----------



## Dante

koshergrl said:


> No, I think it's a higher incidence than hetero abuse.



maybe, but it is no way similar to the savage brutality of what came to be called hate crimes.

ask anyone whose seen the result and it is incomprehensible and utterly horrifying. I've seen it a few times. I've seen some bad shit, but not much approaches hate crime beatings. Think Rawanda and Haiti violence...

not very pc, eh?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

ABikerSailor said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. Share that with the homotards who continually carp "THERE'S MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE THAT CONFIRM THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS HARDWIRED/GENETIC/BIOLOGICAL/NOT A CHOICE!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay..............cool...............what's your answer to this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists at the Karolinska Institute studied brain scans of 90 gay and straight men and women, and found that the size of the two symmetrical halves of the brains of gay men more closely resembled those of straight women than they did straight men. In heterosexual women, the two halves of the brain are more or less the same size. In heterosexual men, the right hemisphere is slightly larger. Scans of the brains of gay men in the study, however, showed that their hemispheres were relatively symmetrical, like those of straight women, while the brains of homosexual women were asymmetrical like those of straight men. The number of nerves connecting the two sides of the brains of gay men were also more like the number in heterosexual women than in straight men.
> 
> Just what these brain differences mean is still not clear. Ever since 1991, when Simon LeVay first documented differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight men, researchers have been struggling to understand what causes these differences to occur. Until now, the brain regions that scientists have come to believe play a role in sexual orientation have been related to either reproduction or sexuality. The Swedish study, however, is the first to find differences in parts of the brain not normally involved in reproduction  the denser network of nerve connections, for example, was found in the amygdala, known as the emotional center of the brain. "The big question has always been, if the brains of gay men are different, or feminized, as earlier research suggests," says Dr. Eric Vilain, professor of human genetics at University of California Los Angeles, "then is it just limited to sexual preference or are there other regions that are gender atypical in gay males? For the first time, in this study it looks like there are regions of the brain not directly involved in sexuality that seem to be feminized in gay males."
> 
> 
> Read more: What the Gay Brain Looks Like - TIME
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Got anything to refute this?
Click to expand...


This.

From your link.



> For something as complex as sexual  orientation, it's no surprise that everything from genes to gender to  environment may play a role in ultimately determining your perfect  partner.



The simple truth is science has no idea how sexual orientation works, never mind whether brain structure affects choice or choice affects brain structure. There is some evidence that behavior can change how the progress of diseases like Alzheimer's, doing something as simple as crosswords can slow it down, perhaps the way people react to things influences the way the brain develops in ways we do not understand. 

At this point there is no way to form a scientific theory about the cause of sexual orientation.


----------



## gallantwarrior

ekrem said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lesbians will go straight when a real man get's ahold of them.
> 
> Your little wee-wee ain't going to impress any woman gay or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lesbians are more accepted in society than gay men.
> In mankind's history there is/was always war and women need love.
> Society can accept women loving women when there is shortage of men.
Click to expand...


What do you mean, "more accepted"?  Hell, girl-on-girl sex is considered "hot" by most men I know.  
Put that aside, women tend to have deeper emotional bonds with others, including other women.  Since women attach a greater emotional meaning to sex and physical intimacy, I can see where they might find greater affinity with other women.
Men, on the other hand, mostly just wanna fuck and get their nut.


----------



## Vidi

Quantum Windbag said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. Share that with the homotards who continually carp "THERE'S MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE THAT CONFIRM THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS HARDWIRED/GENETIC/BIOLOGICAL/NOT A CHOICE!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay..............cool...............what's your answer to this?
> 
> Got anything to refute this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> From your link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For something as complex as sexual  orientation, it's no surprise that everything from genes to gender to  environment may play a role in ultimately determining your perfect  partner.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The simple truth is science has no idea how sexual orientation works, never mind whether brain structure affects choice or choice affects brain structure. There is some evidence that behavior can change how the progress of diseases like Alzheimer's, doing something as simple as crosswords can slow it down, perhaps the way people react to things influences the way the brain develops in ways we do not understand.
> 
> At this point there is no way to form a scientific theory about the cause of sexual orientation.
Click to expand...


Simple truth is, BECAUSE there is no definitive answer as to if its a choice or not, discrimination based on the belief that it IS a choice is based on a false premise and therefore wrong and unconstitutional.


----------



## koshergrl

Bullshit. You call it *discrimination* when people say they don't want their children taught it's *normal*. You call it *discrimination* when people refuse to afford homosexuals special status based on nothing but their sexual proclivities.

It's not discrimination to not want your children taught that homosexuality is "normal". It's not discrimination to not want to acknowledge homosexual partners as "married" when they choose not to participate in the institution of marriage...it's not *discrimination* to want to promote a way of life that is proven to be the #1 factor in successfully raising children and maintaining a sane society.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Vidi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay..............cool...............what's your answer to this?
> 
> Got anything to refute this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> From your link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For something as complex as sexual  orientation, it's no surprise that everything from genes to gender to  environment may play a role in ultimately determining your perfect  partner.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The simple truth is science has no idea how sexual orientation works, never mind whether brain structure affects choice or choice affects brain structure. There is some evidence that behavior can change how the progress of diseases like Alzheimer's, doing something as simple as crosswords can slow it down, perhaps the way people react to things influences the way the brain develops in ways we do not understand.
> 
> At this point there is no way to form a scientific theory about the cause of sexual orientation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Simple truth is, BECAUSE there is no definitive answer as to if its a choice or not, discrimination based on the belief that it IS a choice is based on a false premise and therefore wrong and unconstitutional.
Click to expand...


Wrong.

Discrimination is wrong, period, but it is only unconstitutional if the government does it. The constitution does not limit individuals in any way, shape, or form, therefore noting an individual does is unconstitutional.


----------



## Dante

Quantum Windbag said:


> Discrimination is wrong, period, but it is only unconstitutional if the government does it. The constitution does not limit individuals in any way, shape, or form, therefore noting an individual does is unconstitutional.



wrong

as far as the Courts have decided


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Dante said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Discrimination is wrong, period, but it is only unconstitutional if the government does it. The constitution does not limit individuals in any way, shape, or form, therefore noting an individual does is unconstitutional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wrong
> 
> as far as the Courts have decided
Click to expand...


Wrong again.

The courts have decided that Congress has the power to make some discrimination illegal, but they have also said that some discrimination is actually legal, which is why the Boy Scouts don't let gays join.


----------



## gxnelson

Quantum Windbag said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Discrimination is wrong, period, but it is only unconstitutional if the government does it. The constitution does not limit individuals in any way, shape, or form, therefore noting an individual does is unconstitutional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wrong
> 
> as far as the Courts have decided
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> The courts have decided that Congress has the power to make some discrimination illegal, but they have also said that some discrimination is actually legal, which is why the Boy Scouts don't let gays join.
Click to expand...


I hate to say this, I really do, but I agree with Dante on this one...


----------



## Artevelde

Dante said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think it's a higher incidence than hetero abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maybe, but it is no way similar to the savage brutality of what came to be called hate crimes.
> 
> ask anyone whose seen the result and it is incomprehensible and utterly horrifying. I've seen it a few times. I've seen some bad shit, but not much approaches hate crime beatings. Think Rawanda and Haiti violence...
> 
> not very pc, eh?
Click to expand...


Anti-gay violence is real and bad enough. To compare it to Rwanda and Haiti is completely ridiculous however.


----------



## Artevelde

gxnelson said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> wrong
> 
> as far as the Courts have decided
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> The courts have decided that Congress has the power to make some discrimination illegal, but they have also said that some discrimination is actually legal, which is why the Boy Scouts don't let gays join.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hate to say this, I really do, but I agree with Dante on this one...
Click to expand...


Not really. It's much more complex. A private employer can't exclude sombody based on race, gender, etc,  unless there is a compelling reason. And for private organizations the scope is even wider.

Try taking the Roman Catholic Church to court because it only employs men as priests and see how far you will get.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

gxnelson said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> wrong
> 
> as far as the Courts have decided
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> The courts have decided that Congress has the power to make some discrimination illegal, but they have also said that some discrimination is actually legal, which is why the Boy Scouts don't let gays join.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hate to say this, I really do, but I agree with Dante on this one...
Click to expand...


Then you are wrong. The Supreme Court has ruled that public accommodation laws are constitutional, but that was a ruling about the law and state action in enforcing it. The constitution does not apply to individuals or private associations, which is why Augusta still does not allow women members, despite numerous lawsuits to change that policy.


----------



## harshal84

The Encyclopedia of Homosexuality states that in ancient Greece prostitutes were generally slaves.[3] A well known case is Phaedo of Elis who was captured in war and forced into slavery and prostitution, but was eventually ransomed to become a pupil of Socrates; Plato's Phaedo is told from his perspective. Male brothels existed in both Ancient Greece and ancient Rome.
 When compared to female prostitutes, male sex workers have been far less studied by researchers, and while studies suggest that there may be differences between the ways these two groups look at their work, more research is needed.


----------



## Indofred

My sexual orientation depends where I'm bonking.
In bed, it's horizontal.
Over the bonnet of a car in a supermarket car park, it's standing with my knees slightly bent (unless the lady is quite tall).
Over a washing machine on fast spin; it's kjvkjdnvsdgsnglks


----------



## Noomi

harshal84 said:


> The Encyclopedia of Homosexuality states that in ancient Greece prostitutes were generally slaves.[3] A well known case is Phaedo of Elis who was captured in war and forced into slavery and prostitution, but was eventually ransomed to become a pupil of Socrates; Plato's Phaedo is told from his perspective. Male brothels existed in both Ancient Greece and ancient Rome.
> When compared to female prostitutes, male sex workers have been far less studied by researchers, and while studies suggest that there may be differences between the ways these two groups look at their work, more research is needed.



Umm...what?


----------



## PoliticalTorch

Great thread you have there! 

Here's some great links that speak to that. Sexual orientation is predetermined and _not a choice._

Study finds genes on X chromosome linked to male homosexuality 

LGBT Science ? Exploring the origins of sexual orientation and gender identity ? LGBT Science 

Geneticist Dean Hamer Testifies In Hawai?i On The Biological Origins Of Homosexuality | Truth Wins Out


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Everything we do is the result of making choices. From the time we get out of bed in the morning so as not to wet the bed, to getting in bed at night to rest and prepare for tomorrow, and everything inbetween. 

Who we have sex with is always the result of choice. You fancy someone, ask/offer them sex, then choose whether you ultimately do or not. But at no point does you conscious will vanish and you proceed like an automoton into sexual acts. 

The very term sexual orientation is what doesn't exist. It's sex. Not straight sex, gay sex, or weird sex, just sex. Until the term 'orientation' was coined no one batted an eye at who had sex with whom. And certainly no one was whispering "fag" behind Alexander the Great's back. 

In many ways, instead of continuing to advance as a species we've actually gone quite a ways backwards evolutionarily.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Who we have sex with is our making a choice. 

Who we're attracted to is trickier and what this is really about.


----------



## Darlene

Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
[ame=http://youtu.be/d68_vlLD60Y]Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube[/ame]
Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins

Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Science and Homosexuality
The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio

Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.


----------



## Darlene

Are People Born Gay? Genetics and Homosexuality


----------



## Darlene

Evolution myths: Natural selection cannot explain homosexuality - life - 16 April 2008 - New Scientist

Brown Bears Caught Performing Oral Sex


----------



## Quantum Windbag

PoliticalTorch said:


> Great thread you have there!
> 
> Here's some great links that speak to that. Sexual orientation is predetermined and _not a choice._
> 
> Study finds genes on X chromosome linked to male homosexuality
> 
> LGBT Science ? Exploring the origins of sexual orientation and gender identity ? LGBT Science
> 
> Geneticist Dean Hamer Testifies In Hawai?i On The Biological Origins Of Homosexuality | Truth Wins Out



It is so nice of you to post studies that you personally know are bogus, it speaks a lot about your character.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Darlene said:


> Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
> Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube
> Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins
> 
> Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Science and Homosexuality
> The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio
> 
> Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.



Animals have free will, just like you. I suggest you learn to use it so you are not replaced by animals that understand the power of choice.


----------



## Darlene

Quantum Windbag said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
> Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube
> Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins
> 
> Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Science and Homosexuality
> The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio
> 
> Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Animals have free will, just like you. I suggest you learn to use it so you are not replaced by animals that understand the power of choice.
Click to expand...


I like men, but I do find other women attractive on occasion. Others' lifestyle choices doesn't effect me. I won't try stopping someone from experiencing pleasure and/or love. This country was founded on the freedom of choice. I don't put others down because I don't agree with them. I don't throw insults at those who are different than I am. For the record, a lot of animal species are more civilized than humans are. Sure, they don't build fancy cars or apartment complexes BUT they function better in their group than humans have ever done. Animals take what they need for survival but humans are greedy and keep taking until there's nothing left. Humans destroy and cannot live together peacefully, like animals of the same species can. We need to see that animals are equal to us, not inferior. They're not stupid.
Now, we are mammals and homosexuality is very, very common in mammals of all sorts.

Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
Debate: Are humans better than other forms of life? | A conversation on TED.com
Animal personalities are more like humans than first thought -- ScienceDaily


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Darlene said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
> Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube
> Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins
> 
> Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Science and Homosexuality
> The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio
> 
> Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Animals have free will, just like you. I suggest you learn to use it so you are not replaced by animals that understand the power of choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I like men, but I do find other women attractive on occasion. Others' lifestyle choices doesn't effect me. I won't try stopping someone from experiencing pleasure and/or love. This country was founded on the freedom of choice. I don't put others down because I don't agree with them. I don't throw insults at those who are different than I am. For the record, a lot of animal species are more civilized than humans are. Sure, they don't build fancy cars or apartment complexes BUT they function better in their group than humans have ever done. Animals take what they need for survival but humans are greedy and keep taking until there's nothing left. Humans destroy and cannot live together peacefully, like animals of the same species can. We need to see that animals are equal to us, not inferior. They're not stupid.
> Now, we are mammals and homosexuality is very, very common in mammals of all sorts.
> 
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Debate: Are humans better than other forms of life? | A conversation on TED.com
> Animal personalities are more like humans than first thought -- ScienceDaily
Click to expand...


Why does everyone that hates facts assume that people who point out facts wants to stop other people from enjoying life? Is it a side effect of choosing ignorance over truth?


----------



## PoliticalTorch

Darlene said:


> Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
> Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube
> Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins
> 
> Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Science and Homosexuality
> The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio
> 
> Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.


And here's another one about homosexuality in animals.

'Proud' Lesbian Penguin Couple Nesting Happily At Israeli Zoo - On Top Magazine | Gay news & entertainment


----------



## Rikurzhen

Transsexualism is caused by a developmental disorder during gestation. A male fetus develops testes and this begins the masculinization process away from the female template. Later in the development the testes release androgen and this courses through the fetus and imprints a male gender map onto the brain. For transsexuals the hormone flood is incomplete, they never become fully male, their brains don't get imprinted.

For male homosexuality, the likely cause is some form of pathogen altering brain development either in the fetal stage or very early in life. A genetic cause is very unlikely due to the maladaptive nature of homosexuality.


----------



## PoliticalTorch

Quantum Windbag said:


> PoliticalTorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great thread you have there!
> 
> Here's some great links that speak to that. Sexual orientation is predetermined and _not a choice._
> 
> Study finds genes on X chromosome linked to male homosexuality
> 
> LGBT Science ? Exploring the origins of sexual orientation and gender identity ? LGBT Science
> 
> Geneticist Dean Hamer Testifies In Hawai?i On The Biological Origins Of Homosexuality | Truth Wins Out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is so nice of you to post studies that you personally know are bogus, it speaks a lot about your character.
Click to expand...

Your denial of the Facts as they have been presented by learned professionals in the field speaks volumes about Your character.


----------



## PoliticalTorch

Quantum Windbag said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
> Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube
> Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins
> 
> Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Science and Homosexuality
> The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio
> 
> Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Animals have free will, just like you. I suggest you learn to use it so you are not replaced by animals that understand the power of choice.
Click to expand...

Of course animals and you as well as humans have free will. But free will does not override the fact that sexual orientation is that which is inherent in a person.


----------



## PoliticalTorch

Darlene said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
> Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube
> Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins
> 
> Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Science and Homosexuality
> The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio
> 
> Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Animals have free will, just like you. I suggest you learn to use it so you are not replaced by animals that understand the power of choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I like men, but I do find other women attractive on occasion. Others' lifestyle choices doesn't effect me. I won't try stopping someone from experiencing pleasure and/or love. This country was founded on the freedom of choice. I don't put others down because I don't agree with them. I don't throw insults at those who are different than I am. For the record, a lot of animal species are more civilized than humans are. Sure, they don't build fancy cars or apartment complexes BUT they function better in their group than humans have ever done. Animals take what they need for survival but humans are greedy and keep taking until there's nothing left. Humans destroy and cannot live together peacefully, like animals of the same species can. We need to see that animals are equal to us, not inferior. They're not stupid.
> Now, we are mammals and homosexuality is very, very common in mammals of all sorts.
> 
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Debate: Are humans better than other forms of life? | A conversation on TED.com
> Animal personalities are more like humans than first thought -- ScienceDaily
Click to expand...

Great post, Darlene! Those who know nothing else but to hurl insults at another for their beliefs, as you say, are reacting from a level below that of respect and congruence with civility. Science and medicine have also spoken about their fighting hard to contain a deep, dark secret about themselves by pretending to be something they are not especially with such a topic as homosexuality. I understand that only too well when I read responses given that are fraught with insults, bombastic remarks and the like. Those folks are not too hard to figure out.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

PoliticalTorch said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalTorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great thread you have there!
> 
> Here's some great links that speak to that. Sexual orientation is predetermined and _not a choice._
> 
> Study finds genes on X chromosome linked to male homosexuality
> 
> LGBT Science ? Exploring the origins of sexual orientation and gender identity ? LGBT Science
> 
> Geneticist Dean Hamer Testifies In Hawai?i On The Biological Origins Of Homosexuality | Truth Wins Out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is so nice of you to post studies that you personally know are bogus, it speaks a lot about your character.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your denial of the Facts as they have been presented by learned professionals in the field speaks volumes about Your character.
Click to expand...


My denial of the facts? I proved have provided you with absolute proof that sexual preference is not genetic, and even went to the trouble of showing you why no scientists take those studies that claim to link it to a specific gene seriously, yet you went ahead and posted them again.

In other words, I have the facts, all you have is bogus studies.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

PoliticalTorch said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Does Homosexuality Exist Within the Animal Kingdom?
> Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom - YouTube
> Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild | Animal Sex & Homosexuality in Animal Kingdom | Gay Bonobos & Dolphins
> 
> Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Science and Homosexuality
> The Science of Homosexuality | Serendip Studio
> 
> Let's all be adults and refrain from using derogatory terms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Animals have free will, just like you. I suggest you learn to use it so you are not replaced by animals that understand the power of choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course animals and you as well as humans have free will. But free will does not override the fact that sexual orientation is that which is inherent in a person.
Click to expand...


If you ever provide proof that sexual preference is inherent you might actually have a point, but the fact is that you cannot prove that. Despite all the effort by the APA, which is not a scientific organization, that has gone into proving that people lack a choice about their sexual preference, no one has found conclusive proof to back that viewpoint up. Science consistently states that it doesn't know why some people are homosexual.

You really need to stop reading "genetic research" that is published by psychiatrists and stick to what geneticists actually say.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

PoliticalTorch said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Animals have free will, just like you. I suggest you learn to use it so you are not replaced by animals that understand the power of choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like men, but I do find other women attractive on occasion. Others' lifestyle choices doesn't effect me. I won't try stopping someone from experiencing pleasure and/or love. This country was founded on the freedom of choice. I don't put others down because I don't agree with them. I don't throw insults at those who are different than I am. For the record, a lot of animal species are more civilized than humans are. Sure, they don't build fancy cars or apartment complexes BUT they function better in their group than humans have ever done. Animals take what they need for survival but humans are greedy and keep taking until there's nothing left. Humans destroy and cannot live together peacefully, like animals of the same species can. We need to see that animals are equal to us, not inferior. They're not stupid.
> Now, we are mammals and homosexuality is very, very common in mammals of all sorts.
> 
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Debate: Are humans better than other forms of life? | A conversation on TED.com
> Animal personalities are more like humans than first thought -- ScienceDaily
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Great post, Darlene! Those who know nothing else but to hurl insults at another for their beliefs, as you say, are reacting from a level below that of respect and congruence with civility. Science and medicine have also spoken about their fighting hard to contain a deep, dark secret about themselves by pretending to be something they are not especially with such a topic as homosexuality. I understand that only too well when I read responses given that are fraught with insults, bombastic remarks and the like. Those folks are not too hard to figure out.
Click to expand...


This from the guy that routinely impugns other posters sexual preferences simply because they don't agree with him.


----------



## Darlene

Quantum Windbag said:


> PoliticalTorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like men, but I do find other women attractive on occasion. Others' lifestyle choices doesn't effect me. I won't try stopping someone from experiencing pleasure and/or love. This country was founded on the freedom of choice. I don't put others down because I don't agree with them. I don't throw insults at those who are different than I am. For the record, a lot of animal species are more civilized than humans are. Sure, they don't build fancy cars or apartment complexes BUT they function better in their group than humans have ever done. Animals take what they need for survival but humans are greedy and keep taking until there's nothing left. Humans destroy and cannot live together peacefully, like animals of the same species can. We need to see that animals are equal to us, not inferior. They're not stupid.
> Now, we are mammals and homosexuality is very, very common in mammals of all sorts.
> 
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Debate: Are humans better than other forms of life? | A conversation on TED.com
> Animal personalities are more like humans than first thought -- ScienceDaily
> 
> 
> 
> Great post, Darlene! Those who know nothing else but to hurl insults at another for their beliefs, as you say, are reacting from a level below that of respect and congruence with civility. Science and medicine have also spoken about their fighting hard to contain a deep, dark secret about themselves by pretending to be something they are not especially with such a topic as homosexuality. I understand that only too well when I read responses given that are fraught with insults, bombastic remarks and the like. Those folks are not too hard to figure out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This from the guy that routinely impugns other posters sexual preferences simply because they don't agree with him.
Click to expand...


Well, in that case, you two are one in the same. You are very critical of the homosexuals/bisexuals.


----------



## Darlene

Quantum Windbag said:


> PoliticalTorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like men, but I do find other women attractive on occasion. Others' lifestyle choices doesn't effect me. I won't try stopping someone from experiencing pleasure and/or love. This country was founded on the freedom of choice. I don't put others down because I don't agree with them. I don't throw insults at those who are different than I am. For the record, a lot of animal species are more civilized than humans are. Sure, they don't build fancy cars or apartment complexes BUT they function better in their group than humans have ever done. Animals take what they need for survival but humans are greedy and keep taking until there's nothing left. Humans destroy and cannot live together peacefully, like animals of the same species can. We need to see that animals are equal to us, not inferior. They're not stupid.
> Now, we are mammals and homosexuality is very, very common in mammals of all sorts.
> 
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Humans not smarter than animals, just different, experts say
> Debate: Are humans better than other forms of life? | A conversation on TED.com
> Animal personalities are more like humans than first thought -- ScienceDaily
> 
> 
> 
> Great post, Darlene! Those who know nothing else but to hurl insults at another for their beliefs, as you say, are reacting from a level below that of respect and congruence with civility. Science and medicine have also spoken about their fighting hard to contain a deep, dark secret about themselves by pretending to be something they are not especially with such a topic as homosexuality. I understand that only too well when I read responses given that are fraught with insults, bombastic remarks and the like. Those folks are not too hard to figure out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This from the guy that routinely impugns other posters sexual preferences simply because they don't agree with him.
Click to expand...


You are emotionally constipated and argue almost as well as a real man.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Darlene said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalTorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great post, Darlene! Those who know nothing else but to hurl insults at another for their beliefs, as you say, are reacting from a level below that of respect and congruence with civility. Science and medicine have also spoken about their fighting hard to contain a deep, dark secret about themselves by pretending to be something they are not especially with such a topic as homosexuality. I understand that only too well when I read responses given that are fraught with insults, bombastic remarks and the like. Those folks are not too hard to figure out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This from the guy that routinely impugns other posters sexual preferences simply because they don't agree with him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, in that case, you two are one in the same. You are very critical of the homosexuals/bisexuals.
Click to expand...


I am? Want to show me some examples? 

The fact is I have never criticized anyone based on their sexual preference. I post things that some idiots who like to think they support homosexuals do not like because I am debunking their junk science, but that does not make me critical of homosexuals. What it does is make me a fan of real science.

You should try it sometime, the people who attack science are so stupid they have to resort to flat out lies to defend their position. 

Wait, that is exactly what you did when you said I am critical of homosexuals.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Darlene said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalTorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great post, Darlene! Those who know nothing else but to hurl insults at another for their beliefs, as you say, are reacting from a level below that of respect and congruence with civility. Science and medicine have also spoken about their fighting hard to contain a deep, dark secret about themselves by pretending to be something they are not especially with such a topic as homosexuality. I understand that only too well when I read responses given that are fraught with insults, bombastic remarks and the like. Those folks are not too hard to figure out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This from the guy that routinely impugns other posters sexual preferences simply because they don't agree with him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are emotionally constipated and argue almost as well as a real man.
Click to expand...


Wow, another person who thinks that attacking a persons manhood is somehow justified because they publicly support the LGBTQ community, while secretly despising them.


----------

