# Education Teachers Values



## midcan5 (Dec 17, 2015)

What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.



"Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. *They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools.* They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman


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## frigidweirdo (Dec 17, 2015)

midcan5 said:


> What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.
> 
> 
> 
> "Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. *They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools.* They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman



An uneducated population are easier to control, they're easier to tell what to do, who to vote for, and they will respond well to simplistic ideas, like power. 

So the right don't want good education, it doesn't breed Republicans.


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## MisterBeale (Dec 17, 2015)

As if public education is a "good education."  

What a crock.


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## MisterBeale (Dec 17, 2015)

http://iwcenglish1.typepad.com/Documents/Gatto_Dumbing_Us_Down.pdf


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## frigidweirdo (Dec 17, 2015)

MisterBeale said:


> As if public education is a "good education."
> 
> What a crock.



It should be......


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## regent (Dec 17, 2015)

Public education in a democracy might be difficult with both parties wanting to control education. How many educational programs have politicians created before Bush's NCLB? How many have been successful?


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## MisterBeale (Dec 17, 2015)

frigidweirdo said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> > As if public education is a "good education."
> ...


By it's very nature, by what it is designed to accomplish, it can't be.


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## midcan5 (Dec 17, 2015)

When people criticize our public education they fail to admit, or maybe understand, why that is. Knowing lots of teachers much has to do with facilities and material. Consider the amount of money spent on public schools and consider the attitude of Americans towards education. 

"For years, Finland has led the pack in international test scores, becoming a source of fascination for education policymakers and experts. Now, the country is changing the way it teaches students. Going forward, Finnish schools will be placing less emphasis on individual subjects like math and history, and will instead focus on broader, more interdisciplinary topics. The goal, according to Finnish leaders, is to provide students with the necessary skills for a more technological, global society."

Here are three things you need to know about Finland’s changing education system: Finland's Schools Are Overhauling The Way They Do Things. Here's How


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## saveliberty (Dec 17, 2015)

Funny the best example of a successful AMERICAN education system is the Hillsdale Academy.  It distributes its plan nationwide.  In a small rural setting it has produced a number of National Merit Scholars and very high test scores by stressing traditional subjects including Latin.


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## saveliberty (Dec 17, 2015)

midcan, I have a hard time following you as there are a number of errors in your paragraphs.  Please reread and edit for clarity.  TIA


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## DGS49 (Dec 17, 2015)

The American public school system is ENTIRELY the creation of the Democratic party, and the unions which symbiotically support it.  The combination of unsustainable compensation, bizarre and illogical work rules, faux professionalism, and perverse lifetime tenure, have created a "kingdom" that combines conspicuous failure with crushing cost.

And yet when the obvious shortcomings are mentioned, the predictable response is ALWAYS "not enough MONEY!"


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## frigidweirdo (Dec 17, 2015)

midcan5 said:


> When people criticize our public education they fail to admit, or maybe understand, why that is. Knowing lots of teachers much has to do with facilities and material. Consider the amount of money spent on public schools and consider the attitude of Americans towards education.
> 
> "For years, Finland has led the pack in international test scores, becoming a source of fascination for education policymakers and experts. Now, the country is changing the way it teaches students. Going forward, Finnish schools will be placing less emphasis on individual subjects like math and history, and will instead focus on broader, more interdisciplinary topics. The goal, according to Finnish leaders, is to provide students with the necessary skills for a more technological, global society."
> 
> Here are three things you need to know about Finland’s changing education system: Finland's Schools Are Overhauling The Way They Do Things. Here's How



Actually a lot is about training and trying to improve teaching, also about how schools are set up and what they aim to teach. 

If you teach stuff that's not worth anything, nothing really matters.


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## frigidweirdo (Dec 17, 2015)

saveliberty said:


> Funny the best example of a successful AMERICAN education system is the Hillsdale Academy.  It distributes its plan nationwide.  In a small rural setting it has produced a number of National Merit Scholars and very high test scores by stressing traditional subjects including Latin.



That's what we need, lots of students who can pass tests, because then they'll have the skills needed to pass tests in the future, which will come in very handy for.... er.... for.... I don't know, which job requires you to pass tests?


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## frigidweirdo (Dec 17, 2015)

DGS49 said:


> The American public school system is ENTIRELY the creation of the Democratic party, and the unions which symbiotically support it.  The combination of unsustainable compensation, bizarre and illogical work rules, faux professionalism, and perverse lifetime tenure, have created a "kingdom" that combines conspicuous failure with crushing cost.
> 
> And yet when the obvious shortcomings are mentioned, the predictable response is ALWAYS "not enough MONEY!"



So what about the Republicans then? Where have they been the whole time? What have they been doing?

Either they're so incompetent they have done nothing, or even worse, they've been combating education.


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## Agit8r (Dec 18, 2015)

Wise people have always understood that there cannot be freedom without an educated electorate.

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves therefore are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe their minds must be improved to a certain degree. This indeed is not all that is necessary, though it be essentially necessary. An amendment of our constitution must here come in aid of the public education. The influence over government must be shared among all the people. If every individual which composes their mass participates of the ultimate authority, the government will be safe; because the corrupting the whole mass will exceed any private resources of wealth"
-- Thomas Jefferson, from 'Notes on the State of Virginia' Query 14

"It is better for the poorer classes to have the aid of the richer by a general tax on property, than that every parent should provide at his own expence for the education of his children, it is certain that every Class is interested in establishments which give to the human mind its highest improvements, and to every Country its truest and most durable celebrity."
-- James Madison; from letter to W.T. Barry (Aug. 4, 1822)

"We agree in the utility of universal education, but 'will nations agree in it as fully and extensively as we do?' Why should they not? It would not be fair to conclude that, because they have not yet been disposed to agree in it, they never will. It is allowed that the present age is more enlightened than former ones. Freedom of inquiry is certainly more encouraged; the feelings of humanity have softened the heart; the true principles of civil and religious liberty are better understood; tyranny in all its shapes is more detested; and bigotry, if not still blind, must be mortified to see that she is despised. Such an age may afford at least a nattering expectation that nations, as well as individuals, will view the utility of universal education in so strong a light, as to induce sufficient national patronage and support."
-- Samuel Adams; letter to John Adams (November 20, 1790)

"there should not be a district of one Mile square without a school in it, not founded by a Charitable individual but maintained at the expence of the People themselv they must be taught to reverence themselvs instead of adoreing their servants their Generals Admirals Bishops and Statesmen"
-- John Adams; from letter to John Jebb (Sept. 10, 1785)


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## Disir (Dec 18, 2015)

You can't nail just Republicans for public education when the Democrats are absolutely heavily involved in profiting off of them.  Further,  as long as we have all of the money going towards testing then there won't be any money for teachers and facilities.  

Yes. I know the WH has decided that there might be too much testing but with that statement came the "some parents actually like the testing".  

There comes a point where the give a damn is more than the party.


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## regent (Dec 18, 2015)

Should we spend the same amount of money on each child's elementary and high school education or should we spend more money on some children's education and less on others?


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## Unkotare (Dec 18, 2015)

frigidweirdo said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Funny the best example of a successful AMERICAN education system is the Hillsdale Academy.  It distributes its plan nationwide.  In a small rural setting it has produced a number of National Merit Scholars and very high test scores by stressing traditional subjects including Latin.
> ...






All of them .


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## Unkotare (Dec 18, 2015)

frigidweirdo said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.
> ...





Not as easy as a well programmed one. That's what democrats think education is for.


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## bodecea (Dec 18, 2015)

MisterBeale said:


> As if public education is a "good education."
> 
> What a crock.


Education, public or private, is what you make it....with the support of your parents.   Now....if your family gives no support......SURPRISE!


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## Disir (Dec 19, 2015)

regent said:


> Should we spend the same amount of money on each child's elementary and high school education or should we spend more money on some children's education and less on others?



Do you have a proposal on how to accomplish that one?  Can you tell me where the money would go?


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## Disir (Dec 19, 2015)

Unkotare said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



Even if they did, this only measures one type of testing skill.


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## regent (Dec 19, 2015)

MisterBeale said:


> As if public education is a "good education."
> 
> What a crock.


Even public education is a threat to conservatives.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 19, 2015)

midcan5 said:


> What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.
> 
> 
> 
> "Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. *They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools.* They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman



Wow!  Truman was so spot on!  If only we'd spend tens of trillion of dollars in government programs, we'd have no poverty or illiteracy!

If only!

We spend MORE per student than any other nation on the planet and fully 2/3 of Democrat City "Graduates" can't read at grade level; their only still is to apply for EBT Card and vote Democrat


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## regent (Dec 19, 2015)

CrusaderFrank said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.
> ...


Do we spend all that money equally?


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 19, 2015)

regent said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > midcan5 said:
> ...



Clearly, we spend more on Asian and ESL kids because they always score better than Democrat city blacks, even when they all live in the same city and go to the exact same schools


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## regent (Dec 19, 2015)

CrusaderFrank said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...


Should the same amount of money be spent on each American student's education?


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 19, 2015)

regent said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > regent said:
> ...



One more time: we already spend more per student than any other nation on the planet. Is that hard for you to understand?

Our kids have math and reading scores that are a fucking embarrassment. Progressives have made our schools Democrat Voter Manufacturing Plants: kids can't read or write and all they think about is spending thier lives doing nothing but collecting government money and voting Democrat


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## saveliberty (Dec 19, 2015)

Disir said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



They are successful by whatever test you wish to use.  Employment, college attendance and graduation, outstanding human beings...


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## regent (Dec 19, 2015)

CrusaderFrank said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...


Would we have public education if not for the progressives? I wonder if that is what kids think about collecting government money and voting Democratic?
The question was, however, should the same amount of money be spent on each American student's education?


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## DGS49 (Dec 19, 2015)

The worst thing ever to happen to public education was the granting by Democrat politicians of the right to "organize" and the right to strike.  There is nothing else that even comes close.

Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing.  They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it.  They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.

Teacher compensation, in total, is breathtaking in most large Eastern school districts. When you add the salaries, benefits, and the cost of ludicrously early retirement (with fully paid hospitalization), teachers make, in effect a couple hundred thousand dollars for every work year (i.e., 2000 hours) that they are employed.

In my own public school district, where more than half of the teachers are earning six figures, and they pay NOTHING toward their own retirement (after 30 years, most at age 55 or earlier), and $28 per month for hospitalization that would make anyone in the private sector envious.  And of course it was only after YEARS of begging that the unions agreed to pay this pittance for their insurance - complaining all the while.

And as said above, the bizarre thing about the relationship between Democrats and the Unions is that Democrats constantly admit that public school education sucks, and that only more money can help it, but it never really comes out that it sucks because Democrat policies have prevailed for the past 50 years.


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## Unkotare (Dec 19, 2015)

DGS49 said:


> ....
> 
> Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing.  They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it.  They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.....




That is not true.


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## Disir (Dec 20, 2015)

saveliberty said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



They are not.


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## initforme (Dec 20, 2015)

My kids all had high quality public educations. All 4 are very successful.  What american parents want is for schools to fix their kids deficiencies and shortfalls caused by a messed up home life.  School is a place to drop off ones kids so I don't have to deal with them.  Anyone who complains teachers have it so good should forfeit their earning potential and become a teacher. But those people could never handle the job. Today's kids come in unmotivated and the second a teacher tries to discipline or challenge them the parents are on the phone complaining.  Our public school system has a 98 percent graduation rate and a 80 percent post grad placement rate.  I can't remember the last time a kid joined the military here or hung around doing nothing.  We have it good and our private schools struggle to compete. It depends where one lives I guess.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> The worst thing ever to happen to public education was the granting by Democrat politicians of the right to "organize" and the right to strike.  There is nothing else that even comes close.
> 
> Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing.  They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it.  They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.
> 
> ...



You might to go back and eliminate all of the lies you just told.  Instead of talking about your limited exposure to schools, how about you learn how MOST schools operate?


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## mgh80 (Jan 2, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> The worst thing ever to happen to public education was the granting by Democrat politicians of the right to "organize" and the right to strike.  There is nothing else that even comes close.
> 
> Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing.  They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it.  They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.
> 
> ...



You are wrong.

-I'm in a teacher union (admittedly only because they'll get me a lawyer in case I face any frivolous lawsuits), and I get evaluated by my principal, APs, district employees, and my student test scores. All of which (sans the test scores) are pubic record. Any parent/guardian of any of my 150 students can look up my evaluation scores tonight in a few short minutes.

-Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year...NOT "hundreds of thousands"...and my district is one of the highest paying in my region.

-I pay toward my retirement in every pay check I earn, as it's put into the retirement system.

-Every single person in my district when they're attending school has the opportunity to one become a teacher. Nothing is holding them back.

I understand that there are crappy teachers-I promise you I know this much more than you do. I also promise you there's great teachers out there who are right now at this very second planning their lessons for next week, grading essays/tests, evaluating their student's work, etc.

I'm not sure what district you live in, but what you said does NOT apply to mine.


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## Unkotare (Jan 24, 2016)

midcan5 said:


> ... many feel threatened by knowledge. ...



Who, exactly?


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## DGS49 (Jan 25, 2016)

Just one point among many..."Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year."

OK, let's start there.  If your school district is typical, there is an incremental pay increase every year, plus a union-negotiated "cost of living" increase, which combine to equal roughly 4%.  This comes regardless of performance, and you might notice that in the Real World, nobody is getting 4% increases in the same job, year after year. You will probably get an increase when you get your permanent teaching certificate, and if you get a Masters, that also brings an increase.  But universities frequently provide Masters Degrees in "education" or "counseling" that require only a few courses beyond what is required for a permanent certificate, so that it makes no sense not to go ahead and get that Masters Degree.  But from what I have seen, those are bullshit degrees, with no thesis or comprehensive testing required, as are necessary for almost all Masters Degrees outside education.

 Then, if your school district is typical, there is a "jump step" at around 10 years service, bringing a one-time increase of 40-50%.  NOBODY in the real world get this without a SIGNIFICANT promotion.  But you haven't been promoted; you have no more responsibility than you did the day after you got hired.

The annual and union raises continue to trickle in, regardless of performance, so that you normally see annual increases of at least 2X the actual cost of living increase.  And you CANNOT GET FIRED unless you are guilty of some egregious offense.  Non-performance is met with additional training or monitoring, but your livelihood is never threatened.

Then you can retire after 30 or so years on the job.  If you get your first job in your early 20's - as most teachers do - then this makes retirement at, say, 55 typical.  Which means you are RETIRED AND DRAWING FULL BENEFITS for more than 10 years by the time your contemporaries in the real world are able to retire.  And your retirement is not a 401k plan plus SS, it is a fully-paid, defined benefit plan that can never be threatened, no matter what happens to the stock market, or even if the School District goes bankrupt.  The bottom line is that, for 30 years of working 75% of the year, you are compensated for the day you are hired until the day you die, including a package of benefits that is the envy of anyone actually holding down a real job in the private sector.  Given typical lifespans today, you are paid for 55 years for working what can generously be considered 30 years.

And don't give me any of that bullshit about having to do lesson plans and whatnot in the Summer.  Most "professionals" in our world have to work many, many hours of overtime; they have to travel regularly, including overnight stays in god-forsaken locations, and their job is on the line each and every day they come into work...and it's not only based on their own performance.  And teachers don't have to contend with any of this.  And most professionals in the private sector lose at least a couple jobs in their career due to bankruptcies, mergers, acquisitions, or just because their new boss got a bug up his ass and decided to "shake things up."  There is no guarantee that you will find an equal job after you lose the one you have.  In today's world, you often end up with something much lower on the career ladder.

Depending on where you are teaching, it can be difficult.  A couple generations ago, teachers' pay was a joke, and people occasionally made financial sacrifices in order to lead the life of a public school teacher.  But that is no longer the case.  Which is why the better school districts get 50 or more applications for every teaching job that comes up, and attrition is basically non-existent.  Who would ever give up the gravy train?


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## Unkotare (Jan 25, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> Just one point among many..."Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year."
> 
> OK, let's start there.  If your school district is typical, there is an incremental pay increase every year, plus a union-negotiated "cost of living" increase, which combine to equal roughly 4%.  This comes regardless of performance, and you might notice that in the Real World, nobody is getting 4% increases in the same job, year after year. You will probably get an increase when you get your permanent teaching certificate, and if you get a Masters, that also brings an increase.  But universities frequently provide Masters Degrees in "education" or "counseling" that require only a few courses beyond what is required for a permanent certificate, so that it makes no sense not to go ahead and get that Masters Degree.  But from what I have seen, those are bullshit degrees, with no thesis or comprehensive testing required, as are necessary for almost all Masters Degrees outside education.
> 
> ...





A lot of talk. Ever done it?


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## DGS49 (Jan 25, 2016)

One does not have to be a teacher to obtain and read the local teachers' union contract, or to review the school district's budget.  For some reason, a large percentage of my contemporaries went into teaching;  maybe it was due to the permanent Draft deferment.  Regardless, I have been associating with public school teachers for my entire life, and I watched over the years as Teacher went from a mediocre job that attracted people who were too lame to find a good job in the real world, to a relative sinecure. 

Would I want to do it?  No, but what does that prove?  I wouldn't want to be a truck driver either.


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## Unkotare (Jan 25, 2016)

So, you've never done it. I thought as much.


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## mgh80 (Jan 31, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> Just one point among many..."Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year."
> 
> OK, let's start there.  If your school district is typical, there is an incremental pay increase every year, plus a union-negotiated "cost of living" increase, which combine to equal roughly 4%.  This comes regardless of performance, and you might notice that in the Real World, nobody is getting 4% increases in the same job, year after year. You will probably get an increase when you get your permanent teaching certificate, and if you get a Masters, that also brings an increase.  But universities frequently provide Masters Degrees in "education" or "counseling" that require only a few courses beyond what is required for a permanent certificate, so that it makes no sense not to go ahead and get that Masters Degree.  But from what I have seen, those are bullshit degrees, with no thesis or comprehensive testing required, as are necessary for almost all Masters Degrees outside education.



We get a pay increase after every 3 years, not every year. There is no raise for earning your professional certificate. I'm NOT an education major, and my district has a training program in place to recruit teachers outside of the education major.



DGS49 said:


> Then, if your school district is typical, there is a "jump step" at around 10 years service, bringing a one-time increase of 40-50%.  NOBODY in the real world get this without a SIGNIFICANT promotion.  But you haven't been promoted; you have no more responsibility than you did the day after you got hired.



In my district there is never a 40-50% increase at any time.

Teachers DO get more responsibilities all of the time, we're constantly getting more and more on our plates to do on a typical day (I'm not bitching or complaining-just stating a fact).




DGS49 said:


> The annual and union raises continue to trickle in, regardless of performance, so that you normally see annual increases of at least 2X the actual cost of living increase.  And you CANNOT GET FIRED unless you are guilty of some egregious offense.  Non-performance is met with additional training or monitoring, but your livelihood is never threatened.



Again I can only speak of my district, but we got rid of tenure a while ago.



DGS49 said:


> Then you can retire after 30 or so years on the job.  If you get your first job in your early 20's - as most teachers do - then this makes retirement at, say, 55 typical.  Which means you are RETIRED AND DRAWING FULL BENEFITS for more than 10 years by the time your contemporaries in the real world are able to retire.  And your retirement is not a 401k plan plus SS, it is a fully-paid, defined benefit plan that can never be threatened, no matter what happens to the stock market, or even if the School District goes bankrupt.  The bottom line is that, for 30 years of working 75% of the year, you are compensated for the day you are hired until the day you die, including a package of benefits that is the envy of anyone actually holding down a real job in the private sector.  Given typical lifespans today, you are paid for 55 years for working what can generously be considered 30 years.
> 
> And don't give me any of that bullshit about having to do lesson plans and whatnot in the Summer.  Most "professionals" in our world have to work many, many hours of overtime; they have to travel regularly, including overnight stays in god-forsaken locations, and their job is on the line each and every day they come into work...and it's not only based on their own performance.  And teachers don't have to contend with any of this.  And most professionals in the private sector lose at least a couple jobs in their career due to bankruptcies, mergers, acquisitions, or just because their new boss got a bug up his ass and decided to "shake things up."  There is no guarantee that you will find an equal job after you lose the one you have.  In today's world, you often end up with something much lower on the career ladder.



Once again I DO have to contend with the possibility of being fired on a daily basis. Just this year there was an issue with my student's exams (due to my district messing up), and if I wouldn't have doted my i's or crossed my t's I could have EASILY lost my job.

I do NOT get paid for the summers. I get paid for 198 work days a year...which does NOT include the two weeks of training I'm doing this summer that I'm paying for out of pocket.



DGS49 said:


> Depending on where you are teaching, it can be difficult.  A couple generations ago, teachers' pay was a joke, and people occasionally made financial sacrifices in order to lead the life of a public school teacher.  But that is no longer the case.  Which is why the better school districts get 50 or more applications for every teaching job that comes up, and attrition is basically non-existent.  Who would ever give up the gravy train?



Again I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's clearly not in my district.

Obviously everything I've stated ONLY applies to where I work-because I haven't worked in another district before so I'm admittedly ignorant to how they run things.

I want to be very clear about a few things:

1) I am NOT whining about my job, I personally love my job. I'm trying to debunk any BS that I see people posting about it however

2) EVERYBODY has/had the opportunity to be a teacher, if it's such a great career why didn't you do it?

3) I've worked in the "real world", I assure you I know how it works. I'm the part owner of a successful company. I'm just saying don't make the mistake in assuming that teachers don't live in the real word or never have worked in it before. For the record there are plenty of teachers who haven't-and they used to drive me crazy at work before I just stopped giving a shit about their whining.

Also, as for my performance I beat both my school and district averages in all of my periods (except for one which I beat the district average, but was right at my school's average). We get checked for our performance, and I welcome it because I know what my abilities and skills as a teacher are. In fact next week the superintendent of my district is stopping by my class for a period to see how I run my class.

Making assumption is foolish, because we both know what assuming makes you.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 1, 2016)

mgh80 said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > Just one point among many..."Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year."
> ...



You will have to excuse DGS49 because someone has obviously filled their head with gravel.  Virtually nothing that they posted has been correct.


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## initforme (Feb 1, 2016)

You don't have to defend yourself teaching is an honorable profession despite what some haters who don't value education say.  As stated if its such an easy and great gig then those that complain about it had the opportunity to do it.  As it stands I believe they are underpaid.


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## Unkotare (Feb 3, 2016)

Under paid/over paid is not the point.


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## DGS49 (Feb 4, 2016)

Obviously, every school district is different and broad generalizations are  meaningless.  On the other hand, in states and school districts where teachers have the "right" to strike, the relative absurdity of the situation is proportional to the time that has elapsed since the teachers were empowered.

Teaching is not a "profession" in any meaningful way.  Professions have certain characteristics and "teaching" has none of those characteristics.

Professions have a large body of quantifiable knowledge which MUST BE MASTERED in order to practice the profession.  A lawyer must know the law; a doctor must know medicine; a registered architect must know...whatever the hell architects  have to know.

There is no body of knowledge in teaching that must be mastered.  Any fool with a four-year degree can apply for a teaching job and get it.  Arguably, the teacher must know the subject matter, but even that is questionable.  It's never actually tested.

Professions have high barriers to entry, to keep out incompetents and unsavory people.  Lawyers must have a law degree and pass the bar exam, as well as having personal and professional references.  Doctors must have a medical degree and pass medical boards.  CPA's must have a degree in accounting and pass a comprehensive set of exams.

Teachers?  Usually should have a degree in "education" but there is no quantifiable compendium of knowledge that comprises "education."  Mastery of the substance of "education" is not testable and is not tested.  Even teachers in very technical subjects are not tested in their subject areas, and in most cases only require a modest amount of college coursework to qualify - and even that  minimal qualification can be waived in a pinch - say, when they need a Chemistry teacher.   And in fact, most science and math teachers do not have degrees in the quantitative subject; they have degrees in Education with a minor in the subject area.

Professionals must perform to a standard of competence that goes far  beyond a mere "absence of negligence."  "Malpractice" is the practice of a profession that is not in accordance with the latest information available to practitioners.  If a doctor is not aware of the latest treatments, or is not aware of serious problems with treatments that in the past were considered acceptable, he is guilty of malpractice.

Can you even imagine someone suing a public school teacher for "malpractice"?  It is laughable.

But Teachers require a state certification, don't they?  Yes, but so what?  So do barbers.  And they can teach for years without that certification.

Teaching ain't no profession.  Just because you fervently wish it is so, doesn't make it so.


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## Unkotare (Feb 4, 2016)

Does a teacher live in your neighborhood who beats the hell out of you every day, or what? 


Your ignorant obsession seems to be getting worse.


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## mgh80 (Feb 6, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> Obviously, every school district is different and broad generalizations are  meaningless.  On the other hand, in states and school districts where teachers have the "right" to strike, the relative absurdity of the situation is proportional to the time that has elapsed since the teachers were empowered.
> 
> Teaching is not a "profession" in any meaningful way.  Professions have certain characteristics and "teaching" has none of those characteristics.
> 
> ...



I responded to your last post point by point, why did you not do the same? Could it be because you're ignorant about teaching? Seriously, I think we'd all respect your opinions much more if you were able to actually respond to the counterclaims you face, or at least list ONE refutation.

If you want to make valid points-do so by responding to the points of others. I'm all for an open and honest debate, however it seems that you are not. Your ignorance is astounding, and the funny part is that you're too ignorant to understand why people don't take you seriously. Do society a favor and remain in your parent's basement, and do me a favor: next time I go through the drive-thru, make sure you get my order right.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 7, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> Obviously, every school district is different and broad generalizations are  meaningless.  On the other hand, in states and school districts where teachers have the "right" to strike, the relative absurdity of the situation is proportional to the time that has elapsed since the teachers were empowered.
> 
> Teaching is not a "profession" in any meaningful way.  Professions have certain characteristics and "teaching" has none of those characteristics.
> 
> ...



Why do you continue to spout all of this misinformation?  You continue to post lie after lie!

Why?  Did a teacher run off with your lover and you are still pissed?  I don't have the time to refute all your asinine claims in this post.  You just ranted and lied on just about every single point!

Do you actually believe this bullshit?  if someone told you these things, I strongly  suggest you give them a good punch in the face for lying to you.


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## initforme (Feb 7, 2016)

People believe this rubbish because hannity tells them so.


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## stuart (Nov 30, 2016)

Think through the amount of change spent on communal institutes and reflect the attitude of Americans in the direction of learning.Dissertation Editing Help UK


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 7, 2016)

CrusaderFrank said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps they are immigrants who speak English as a second language?  The inability to read makes learning math much more difficult.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 7, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> The worst thing ever to happen to public education was the granting by Democrat politicians of the right to "organize" and the right to strike.  There is nothing else that even comes close.
> 
> Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing.  They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it.  They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.
> 
> ...



Do you have any clue as to how few districts come even close to the one you are describing? Perhaps one in a few thousand?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 7, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> Just one point among many..."Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year."
> 
> OK, let's start there.  If your school district is typical, there is an incremental pay increase every year, plus a union-negotiated "cost of living" increase, which combine to equal roughly 4%.  This comes regardless of performance, and you might notice that in the Real World, nobody is getting 4% increases in the same job, year after year. You will probably get an increase when you get your permanent teaching certificate, and if you get a Masters, that also brings an increase.  But universities frequently provide Masters Degrees in "education" or "counseling" that require only a few courses beyond what is required for a permanent certificate, so that it makes no sense not to go ahead and get that Masters Degree.  But from what I have seen, those are bullshit degrees, with no thesis or comprehensive testing required, as are necessary for almost all Masters Degrees outside education.
> 
> ...



There are so many outright lies and exaggerations in that post that it should be nominated for a prize.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 7, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> Obviously, every school district is different and broad generalizations are  meaningless.  On the other hand, in states and school districts where teachers have the "right" to strike, the relative absurdity of the situation is proportional to the time that has elapsed since the teachers were empowered.
> 
> Teaching is not a "profession" in any meaningful way.  Professions have certain characteristics and "teaching" has none of those characteristics.
> 
> ...



Another pack of lies?


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## Unkotare (Nov 26, 2021)

DGS49 said:


> .....
> 
> Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing.  They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students ...They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance ...
> 
> ...


All of that ^^^^^^ is complete bullshit.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Nov 26, 2021)

initforme said:


> My kids all had high quality public educations. All 4 are very successful.  What american parents want is for schools to fix their kids deficiencies and shortfalls caused by a messed up home life.  School is a place to drop off ones kids so I don't have to deal with them.  Anyone who complains teachers have it so good should forfeit their earning potential and become a teacher. But those people could never handle the job. Today's kids come in unmotivated and the second a teacher tries to discipline or challenge them the parents are on the phone complaining.  Our public school system has a 98 percent graduation rate and a 80 percent post grad placement rate.  I can't remember the last time a kid joined the military here or hung around doing nothing.  We have it good and our private schools struggle to compete. It depends where one lives I guess.


If they do not join the military, there is a significant problem with your teachers and counselors.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Nov 26, 2021)

DGS49 said:


> One does not have to be a teacher to obtain and read the local teachers' union contract, or to review the school district's budget.  For some reason, a large percentage of my contemporaries went into teaching;  maybe it was due to the permanent Draft deferment.  Regardless, I have been associating with public school teachers for my entire life, and I watched over the years as Teacher went from a mediocre job that attracted people who were too lame to find a good job in the real world, to a relative sinecure.
> 
> Would I want to do it?  No, but what does that prove?  I wouldn't want to be a truck driver either.


You are using one school district and equating all others to it.  I taught for 21 years ending in 2018.  I made over 50K one out of 21 years working for Florida, the Department of Defense dependents schools, and i Kentucky.  The reason?  That one school district paid out with credit for my 11 years active duty, day for day. I went in at about a Step 26 on their pay scale and was one of the highest paid teachers in the district.  I still only made about $55K.  Wonder why they did not renew my contract?

Also, I was 110 miles from home from home, so I saw my family only on the weekends.  I rented a room from another teacher who was 200 miles from home. Why did we work there?  We were the only qualified math teachers that this school could hire.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Nov 26, 2021)

DGS49 said:


> Obviously, every school district is different and broad generalizations are  meaningless.  On the other hand, in states and school districts where teachers have the "right" to strike, the relative absurdity of the situation is proportional to the time that has elapsed since the teachers were empowered.
> 
> Teaching is not a "profession" in any meaningful way.  Professions have certain characteristics and "teaching" has none of those characteristics.
> 
> ...


No testing?  It must have been my imagination that I had to pass a professional teacher's certification to become a teacher, as well as individual subject area tests to be certified to teach math and history.  I had to have a degree in a subject area where I was certified which my BA satisfied.

Once again, you whip out that broad brush and paint every school district like your own, which could not be further from the truth.


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## MisterBeale (Nov 26, 2021)

Unkotare said:


> All of that ^^^^^^ is complete bullshit.


You can't know that this might not be. . ."complete bullshit," it might just be. . . er. . . partial bullshit.  By that, I mean, it might be true for HIS school district, and many school districts in his state.

The thing about education, is it is uniquely local.  Just this Thanksgiving, I found out there is a provision in proposal A that made it possible, for very, VERY wealth school districts to opt out of the "schools of choice," provision, if they turn down a certain STATE stipend of funding.  I had know idea this provision existed, as nearly ever district in the STATE uses that schools of choice provision.

So?  The upshot is, if even within a STATE local education ordinances can vary, then of course, you can't possibly know all the law, everywhere for education standards, not can the person who you posted to, make such a general and ignorant statement about all education systems everywhere.


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