# Open carry versus concealed carry



## Otis Mayfield (Jan 20, 2022)

I think conceal carry is best.


Say you and your neighbor don't like each other. One day you're out mowing the lawn with your Glock 19 9mm on your hip.

Your neighbor walks up, pulls a gun and shoots you dead. He then takes a handkerchief and removes your gun from your holster and lays it next to you.

Perfect murder?

Or you could have people saying he was open carrying, I believed he was going to shoot me. And they get off because of self-defense, even though the conflict was 100% their fault.

A third problem happens when suicidal kooks who want to die come up to you and threaten you, hoping you'll use your open carry gun to shoot them dead.


When you conceal carry, you avoid all these problems. Others can't see that you're armed.







						Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry: The Great Debate
					

Concealed Carry Holsters by Urban Carry




					webcache.googleusercontent.com


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## Anomalism (Jan 20, 2022)

I see no reason to advertise that I'm carrying.


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## Darkwind (Jan 20, 2022)

Let's say that an asteroid was forecast to hit the Earth and you only had a six-day supply of your favorite brown sugar.   You then realize that the rake in your backyard is not the right color of green.

So, you decide to put a gun on your hip and go out to mow the lawn.


The whole problem with people working so hard to make up scenarios from their own fears is that the scenes in their heads get more and more ludicrous.  This is called the, "What if" syndrome.

Everyone can make up all kinds of situations in which their fantasy fits their bias and they then use that to justify why they want to take away someone's rights.

So, put the cotton candy on your head take your hand out of your pants, and don't worry about who is concealed carry and who is open carry.  If you're not being a dick, people generally leave you alone.


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## marvin martian (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> I think conceal carry is best.
> 
> 
> Say you and your neighbor don't like each other. One day you're out mowing the lawn with your Glock 19 9mm on your hip.
> ...



You watch too much TV.


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## 1srelluc (Jan 20, 2022)

What's next, beans or no beans, .45 vs 9mm, Shotgun vs rifle for HD?  😐


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

It's hard to conceal carry my AR pistol.


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## Mr Natural (Jan 20, 2022)

Anomalism said:


> I see no reason to advertise that I'm carrying.


Other than to warn the bad guys to leave you alone.


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 20, 2022)

Darkwind said:


> Let's say that an asteroid was forecast to hit the Earth and you only had a six-day supply of your favorite brown sugar.   You then realize that the rake in your backyard is not the right color of green.
> 
> So, you decide to put a gun on your hip and go out to mow the lawn.
> 
> ...



Never going to happen in our lifetimes.


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 20, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> Other than to warn the bad guys to leave you alone.



It can just as easily attract a kook who wants you to shoot them.


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## Mr Natural (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> It can just as easily attract a kook who wants you to shoot them.


If that’s what he wants. . .


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## Anomalism (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> It can just as easily attract a kook who wants you to shoot them.


Or just create tension in general. It puts you on the radar. I choose to keep my advantages a secret.


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## Donald H (Jan 20, 2022)

No gun is always better than a hidden gun or a visible gun. Allow the burglar to take what he needs and save the lives of a wife and children. 

In 99.9% of home burglaries the intention isn't to commit murder.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> No gun is always better than a hidden gun or a visible gun.


You don't really believe this, and we all know it.


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## lg325 (Jan 20, 2022)

*Seeing people with open carry doesn't bother me I grew up rural and seeing firearms on someone's hip or on the truck gun rack is normal to me but not to others. In my hometown of Orlando, I was pulled over by police officer asking to maybe take my guns off the gunrack and put them out of sight. They had a number of 911 calls people in the cars calling them all upset seeing my firearms.  We both had laughed when the cars came by with people on cell phones who were following me and calling in.  So my home town has changed as also the people in it so I still conceal carry but keep my long guns out of sight.*


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 20, 2022)

lg325 said:


> *Seeing people with open carry doesn't bother me I grew up rural and seeing firearms on someone's hip or on the truck gun rack is normal to me but not to others. In my hometown of Orlando, I was pulled over by police officer asking to maybe take my guns off the gunrack and put them out of sight. They had a number of 911 calls people in the cars calling them all upset seeing my firearms.  We both had laughed when the cars came by with people on cell phones who were following me and calling in.  So my home town has changed as also the people in it so I still conceal carry but keep my long guns out of sight.*



That's about how it is around here too.

Plus, if you have your guns in a gunrack, your pickup is just a big target for gun theft.


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## Woodznutz (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> No gun is always better than a hidden gun or a visible gun. Allow the burglar to take what he needs and save the lives of a wife and children.
> 
> In 99.9% of home burglaries the intention isn't to commit murder.


Murder occurs when the resident is home at the time and the burglar doesn't want to be identified. When at home have a gun and a plan.


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## Woodznutz (Jan 20, 2022)

lg325 said:


> *Seeing people with open carry doesn't bother me I grew up rural and seeing firearms on someone's hip or on the truck gun rack is normal to me but not to others. In my hometown of Orlando, I was pulled over by police officer asking to maybe take my guns off the gunrack and put them out of sight. They had a number of 911 calls people in the cars calling them all upset seeing my firearms.  We both had laughed when the cars came by with people on cell phones who were following me and calling in.  So my home town has changed as also the people in it so I still conceal carry but keep my long guns out of sight.*


When I was a kid we used to take our guns ('cased' of course) on the city bus. No one paid any attention.


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## Donald H (Jan 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Murder occurs when the resident is home at the time and the burglar doesn't want to be identified. When at home have a gun and a plan.


The homeowner death statistics don't bear that out. Home burglaries in Canada most often by far don't end in death. 

No guns or fewer guns is always preferable to more guns from my perspective as a Canadian. I appreciate that most Americans don't agree. My relatives living in America don't all agree with me either, but some do.


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## marvin martian (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> No gun is always better than a hidden gun or a visible gun. Allow the burglar to take what he needs and save the lives of a wife and children.
> 
> In 99.9% of home burglaries the intention isn't to commit murder.



What's your address?


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> No guns or fewer guns is always preferable to more guns from my perspective as a Canadian.


You don't actually believe this, and we all know it.


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## Peace (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> No gun is always better than a hidden gun or a visible gun. Allow the burglar to take what he needs and save the lives of a wife and children.
> 
> In 99.9% of home burglaries the intention isn't to commit murder.


You must be a career criminal…

Out in the country you have to own some type of firearm because of the chances of wild animals or a intruder and the Police are not right around the corner either and it could be hours to days before you get help, so live in reality please!


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## Donald H (Jan 20, 2022)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> You must be a career criminal…
> 
> Out in the country you have to own some type of firearm because of the chances of wild animals or a intruder and the Police are not right around the corner either and it could be hours to days before you get help, so live in reality please!


It happens that I do live out in the country where there are cougars and bears and haven't needed a gun for over 20 years. That's not saying that I either own a gun or don't own one. I live on Vancouver Island, B.C., Canada where we have more bears than any other place in the world. Maybe cougars too! 

But lets try to stay with the topic of guns being used as protection against burglars.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jan 20, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> Other than to warn the bad guys to leave you alone.



Which is foolish.
If I'm some nut job intent on killing a bunch of people the dude thats open carrying is gonna be my first target.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> I think conceal carry is best.
> 
> 
> Say you and your neighbor don't like each other. One day you're out mowing the lawn with your Glock 19 9mm on your hip.
> ...


It's a fucking alternative world over in America that you have to carry a gun to cut your grass.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> It's a fucking alternative world over in America that you have to carry a gun to cut your grass.


I don't recall seeing anyone claim they -had- to carry a gun while mowing grass.
I -do- recall someone supposing, for the sake of argument, they -did- carry one, but that's not the same thing.

Maybe you made that up because you know can't meaningfully contribute anything to the topic?


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## deannalw (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Allow the burglar to take what he needs




The hell I will. I'm gonna shoot him.

Let him go earn money for what he needs like I did.


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## deannalw (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> It happens that I do live out in the country where there are cougars and bears and haven't needed a gun for over 20 years. That's not saying that I either own a gun or don't own one. I live on Vancouver Island, B.C., Canada where we have more bears than any other place in the world. Maybe cougars too!
> 
> But lets try to stay with the topic of guns being used as protection against burglars.




The op's topic is actually conceal vs open carry.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

deannalw said:


> The op's topic is actually conceal vs open carry.


He knows.  He's trolling.


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## Donald H (Jan 20, 2022)

deannalw said:


> The op's topic is actually conceal vs open carry.


I don't think anybody is going to limit a gun topic, but if or when they do, I'll be happy to abide by the rules. Could that ever work on a gun toppic?

I don't imagine that any minds will be changed by something I say but I think a contribution from a Canadian is as useful as anything. Especially considering how Canadians are as well versed as any on the legitimate use of guns.


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## marvin martian (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> It's a fucking alternative world over in America that you have to carry a gun to cut your grass.



Imagine being so oppressed, you're not even allowed to consider it.


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## deannalw (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I don't think anybody is going to limit a gun topic, but if or when they do, I'll be happy to abide by the rules. Could that ever work on a gun toppic?
> 
> I don't imagine that any minds will be changed by something I say but I think a contribution from a Canadian is as useful as anything. Especially considering how Canadians are as well versed as any on the legitimate use of guns.




I never mind when a thread meanders some. It was you that suggested we stay on topic, but got the topic wrong.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> Imagine being so oppressed, you're not even allowed to consider it.


Imagine being such a thick c*** that you think Brits don't have guns. You fucking spastic.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> I don't recall seeing anyone claim they -had- to carry a gun while mowing grass.
> I -do- recall someone supposing, for the sake of argument, they -did- carry one, but that's not the same thing.
> 
> Maybe you made that up because you know can't meaningfully contribute anything to the topic?


Do you get sexual gratification trolling posters?


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Do you get sexual gratification trolling posters?


Now that you made yourself feel better - can you tell us why you think -anyone- claimed they need a gun to mow the lawn?


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## marvin martian (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Imagine being such a thick c*** that you think Brits don't have guns. You fucking spastic.



Ah yes, your 100 year-old over-under shotgun you have to keep locked up at the club and get permission from the Oberleutnant if you want to touch it. LOL


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Now that you made yourself feel better - can you tell us why you think -anyone- claimed they need a gun to mow the lawn?


Do you get sexual gratification trolling posters?

No matter where I go, as soon as it's a gun issue, you are there trolling. Whether you're sitting at you laptop with your trolley's around your ankles, your house your choice, there's no need to troll me. So be off with you.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Do you get sexual gratification trolling posters?


So... no, you -can't- tell us why you think -anyone- claimed they need a gun to mow the law.

How, then is your comment....
_It's a fucking alternative world over in America that you have to carry a gun to cut your grass.        _
... in any way relevant to the topic?


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> No matter where I go, as soon as it's a gun issue, you are there trolling. Whether you're sitting at you laptop with your trolley's around your ankles, your house your choice, there's no need to troll me. So be off with you.


This is an overly long-winded way to admit you cannot meaningfully defend your positions from my criticisms or present a sound rebuttal to mine, but it is good to see you've progressed to the point where such an admission is possible.
Well done.


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## jbrownson0831 (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> I think conceal carry is best.
> 
> 
> Say you and your neighbor don't like each other. One day you're out mowing the lawn with your Glock 19 9mm on your hip.
> ...


So, the main critic of reliable news sources spends his spare time thinking up the most ridiculous scenarios possible?  Are you smoking hemp again??


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> I think conceal carry is best.
> 
> 
> Say you and your neighbor don't like each other. One day you're out mowing the lawn with your Glock 19 9mm on your hip.
> ...


.

Proper tactical training and situation awareness are far superior to an abundance of laws that try to save you.
What others think is their problem until they absolutely insist on making it yours to take care of.

.​


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> It's a fucking alternative world over in America that you have to carry a gun to cut your grass.


.

Uh yeah ... We have shit like bears, wild hogs, alligators, poisonous snakes, mountain lions and pumas.
Shot a wild hog while mowing the yard last season and three in the yard since then.

.​


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> Uh yeah ... We have shit like bears, wild hogs, alligators, poisonous snakes, mountain lions and pumas.
> 
> .​


We have American tourists, Labourites, Welsh, Scottish and hedgehogs. Beat that.


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> We have American tourists, Labourites, Welsh, Scottish and hedgehogs. Beat that.


.

There's probably enough room for them in my yard too ... Bring your own booze ...  
(There's actually a Posted sign on the gate out by the main road and wouldn't suggest just showing up)

.​


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## bugs (Jan 20, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> Other than to warn the bad guys to leave you alone.


That Really Does seem to help..


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> There's probably enough room for them in my yard too ... Bring your own booze ...
> (There's actually a Posted sign on the gate out by the main road and wouldn't suggest just showing up)
> ...


You are welcome to the Welsh and Scottish. The more the better. Don't forget to bring sheep for the Welsh and teeth for the Scottish.


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 20, 2022)

Another big problem, as I see it, is someone without a gun approaching you.

There might be dozens of people around, so you pay this one guy no mind.

He manhandles you and takes your gun away. And he runs off with it.

It happens to police from time to time, when criminals grab their guns away from the cops, so it could easily happen to a civilian too.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

How about Otis Mayfield , you all try to get sensible with guns and have them locked away. Then when you go target practicing at the range, or hunting in the forest, or clay pigeon shooting, you take them with you, then lock them up when you get home.

Do you think that's possible. Most countries can do it, do you think Americans have the brain capacity to do that too?


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Another big problem, as I see it, is someone without a gun approaching you.
> 
> There might be dozens of people around, so you pay this one guy no mind.
> 
> ...


.

Oh please ... Where do you live man?
Sounds like a Progressive shithole.

Around here we give the Sheriff's Department a hard time about having to use their shiny Urban Combat Vehicle
and call the SWAT team to round up someone's cows.​


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> This is an overly long-winded way to admit you cannot meaningfully defend your positions from my criticisms or present a sound rebuttal to mine, but it is good to see you've progressed to the point where such an admission is possible.
> Well done.


Did you know that with guns, the problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence. You're very confident with the gun issue.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Did you know that with guns, the problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence. You're very confident with the gun issue.


And thus, I further accept your concession.


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> How about Otis Mayfield , you all try to get sensible with guns and have them locked away. Then when you go target practicing at the range, or hunting in the forest, or clay pigeon shooting, you take them with you, then lock them up when you get home.
> 
> Do you think that's possible. Most countries can do it, do you think Americans have the brain capacity to do that too?


.

I am guessing you don't live in a place where firearms are very useful.
Where I live ... It's just another tool hanging on the wall and ready to use.

What you are saying would be like parking your truck in town and deciding to walk home.
Doesn't really make much sense at all.

.​


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And thus, I further accept your concession.


You accept that America is a dangerous gun culture, full of inhabitants that can't handle guns. Duly noted.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> How about Otis Mayfield , you all try to get sensible with guns and have them locked away. Then when you go target practicing at the range, or hunting in the forest, or clay pigeon shooting, you take them with you, then lock them up when you get home.


This describes the vast, vast majority of gun owners in the US.
But, you're too overwhelmed by your anger and hatred for those whose criticism you cannot rebut and positions you cannot attack to see things as they are - instead, you see them as you need them to be for your statements to have any meaning.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> ....America is a dangerous gun culture, full of inhabitants that can't handle guns.


And thus, another example of your inability to see things as they are and how you, instead, see them as you need them to be for your statements to have any meaning.
You cannot demonstrate your statement to be true - and you don't care.


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## marvin martian (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Another big problem, as I see it, is someone without a gun approaching you.
> 
> There might be dozens of people around, so you pay this one guy no mind.
> 
> ...



Does this happen often where you live?


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## Batcat (Jan 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> It's hard to conceal carry my AR pistol.


One of the biggest problems with concealed carry in warmer states like Florida is a handgun, especially a full sized weapon, is hard to conceal under lighter clothes. 

So rather than carrying a 1911 .45 auto I end up carrying a .38+P snub nosed revolver.


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## Donald H (Jan 20, 2022)

__





						The ‘Yard Gun’ | Concealed Carry Report - USCCA
					

After reading about recent dog attacks, I was concerned about how quickly I might be able to get inside my home. I decided to try carrying a “yard gun.”




					www.usconcealedcarry.com
				




The reasons why Americans are afraid to mow the lawn without a gun.
The yard gun is different from the grocery store gun, the car gun, the toilet gun, the pillow gun, and the local bar gun or the work gun.


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.

Well shit ... If you are going to break it down like that, you need to categorize your yard guns.
There's the porch gun, the deck gun, the too lazy to get a flyswatter gun, the never liked that rose bush anyway gun,
the way too many sweet gum balls on that tree gun, the oops it's still dove season gun ... And so on.

That isn't even couniting the take the screen off the back window, sitting at the kitchen table, drinking coffee, deer rifle.

.​


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## Zincwarrior (Jan 20, 2022)

Open carry is really only viable in rural environments, which is fine. CC is better in suburban/urban environments for many reasons.

Also for the record, friends don't let friends drive Glock.😎


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## fncceo (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Your neighbor walks up, pulls a gun and shoots you dead. He then takes a handkerchief and removes your gun from your holster and lays it next to you.



Call for Angela Lansbury!


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Batcat said:


> One of the biggest problems with concealed carry in warmer states like Florida is a handgun, especially a full sized weapon, is hard to conceal under lighter clothes.
> So rather than carrying a 1911 .45 auto I end up carrying a .38+P snub nosed revolver.


XD40 sub-compact for summer
XDM-10 under a coat.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The reasons why Americans are afraid to mow the lawn without a gun.


No such condition exists.


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 20, 2022)

Zincwarrior said:


> Open carry is really only viable in rural environments, which is fine. CC is better in suburban/urban environments for many reasons.
> 
> Also for the record, friends don't let friends drive Glock.😎



Yeah, that's a good point.

I do see people open carry in towns and cities from time to time.

I've always thought it dangerous.

Get a conceal carry permit and go to town.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> So... no, you -can't- tell us why you think -anyone- claimed they need a gun to mow the law.


The op created a fallacy by stating having a gun whilst mowing the lawn. In the same way, you state you need guns for self defence, another fallacy.

You run about with guns for one reason - You like guns.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jan 20, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> I think conceal carry is best.


True – but not for the ridiculous reasons you note.

Concealed carry is best because in the event of an active shooter, others won’t expect you to ‘do something.’

One carries concealed for self-defense, not to ‘deter’ crime or ‘neutralize’ an active shooter.

In such an event conceal carry allows you to seek out safety with others.


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The op created a fallacy by stating having a gun whilst mowing the lawn. In the same way, you state you need guns for self defence, another fallacy.
> 
> You run about with guns for one reason - You like guns.


.

We like forks too ... A lot less messy on the fingers ...   
Of Course, you can get by not using them if you're eating fried chicken.

.​


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> We like forks too ... A lot less messy on the fingers ...
> Of Course, you can get by not using them if you're eating fried chicken.
> ...


Everytime a gun nut comes up with a scenario on the need for a gun, or a gun concealed or open carry, it's always a fallacy. Just on this occasion, M14 confirmed this, yet they feel still lofty.


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Everytime a gun nut comes up with a scenario on the need for a gun, or a gun concealed or open carry, it's always a fallacy. Just on this occasion, M14 confirmed this, yet they feel still lofty.


.

Pfft ... The truth of the matter is that the powers that be will never relinquish their access to firearms.
And because of that ... It really doesn't matter.

They could make it so only law enforcement officers can own firearms ...
And the next day I would be a Reserve Deputy for the Sheriff's Department.

I might actually have to do a patrol at some point.
Then I could cruise the interstate looking for people using those crossovers marked _"Authorized Vehicles Only"_.
Pull up behind them, turn the lights on, and say over the loudspeaker ..._ "You are now Authorized, go on and get out of here".

._​


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> Pfft ... The truth of the matter is that the powers that be will never relinquish their access to firearms.
> And because of that ... It really doesn't matter.
> ...


Here's a video, I know you won't watch it, but on the off chance you do, did you realise that Brits own these guns.


Yes, Uzi's are legal. If you pass the back ground check and part of a gun club, you can own an Uzi.


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Here's a video, I know you won't watch it, but on the off chance you do, did you realise that Brits own these guns.
> 
> 
> Yes, Uzi's are legal. If you pass the back ground check and part of a gun club, you can own an Uzi.


.

It explains the difference between a Privilege and a Right.
Other than that ... I don't particularly care what Rights or Privileges the Brits have.

Not trying to be offensive ... It was kind of a polite "So What".

.​


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> It explains the difference between a Privilege and a Right.
> Other than that ... I don't particularly care what Rights or Privileges the Brits have.
> ...


Try again, try and watch it. After that, think about your gun posts.


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## AZrailwhale (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Here's a video, I know you won't watch it, but on the off chance you do, did you realise that Brits own these guns.
> 
> 
> Yes, Uzi's are legal. If you pass the back ground check and part of a gun club, you can own an Uzi.


Yeah if the cops decide you have a NEED for it, don't object to you having it and if you keep it locked up at the club.  You don't have rights; you have privileges that her majesties' government can revoke at will. 
You might remember that little unpleasantness between 1939 and 1945 when the Local Defense Volunteers were armed with PIKES and a few double-barreled shotguns because your government didn't allow you weapons to defend it and yourself.  Private American citizens had to send gifts of our privately owned firearms so you could defend your country against Operation Sealion.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Yeah if the cops decide you have a NEED for it, don't object to you having it and if you keep it locked up at the club.  You don't have rights; you have privileges that her majesties' government can revoke at will.
> You might remember that little unpleasantness between 1939 and 1945 when the Local Defense Volunteers were armed with PIKES and a few double-barreled shotguns because your government didn't allow you weapons to defend it and yourself.  Private American citizens had to send gifts of our privately owned firearms so you could defend your country against Operation Sealion.


Did you watch the video.


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## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Try again, try and watch it. After that, think about your gun posts.


.

I don't need to watch it again ... It talks about all things the government allows the Brits to have.

I am not scared to death of firearms ... It's not that freaking hard to respect them.
My government trusted me enough to put some pretty freaking awesome firearms in my hands and trained me how to use them.
They know what I own and what I can do with them.

Plus ... It's a Right not a Privilege here.

.​


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> I don't need to watch it again ... It talks about all things the government allows the Brits to have.
> 
> ...


You didn't watch it, American gun nuts won't.

If your background and reason checks out, your licence application is accepted. If you watch the video, you will be surprised at what guns the UK public own.

But there's a difference. You guys are rights mad and kill more in one day than the UK kills in a year, yet, look at the guns we own. There's a big difference between America and the UK on guns, you exercise a right to guns, Brits exercise responsibility towards guns.

And you feel you are free because you have a right to a gun, but you don't have the right to a cross a road where you want to. You need to talk less and think more.


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> You didn't watch it, American gun nuts won't.
> 
> If your background and reason checks out, your licence application is accepted. If you watch the video, you will be surprised at what guns the UK public own.
> 
> ...


.

We aren't asking for permission ...  

There is no Federal statute that restricts the age of an individual in regard to who can possess and carry a longarm and ammunition.
Do you know why ... Because In America, you are *Born With That Right*.

.​


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> We aren't asking for permission ...
> 
> ...


And you can't cross a road. How about asking your leaders for that right.


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> And you can't cross a road. How about asking your leaders for that right.


.

*We don't have to ask for what we already have ... *  

.​


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> *We don't have to ask for what we already have ... *
> 
> .​


Road crossing regulations. Embarrassing.


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Road crossing regulations. Embarrassing.


.

For goodness sakes, you are having trouble crossing the damn road ... That would be kind of embarrassing.
Seems as though y'all cannot do much of anything without getting permission.

Try not to wander too far away from your Nanny or you may forget to breathe ...  

.​


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Did you watch the video.


Yes and that’s what it said between the lines.  You only can do what the government ALLOWS you to do.  Your every movement is watched by cameras, anything you say that the government doesn’t like can be termed “hate speech”, banned and you can be punished for speaking about your honest beliefs.  The “weapons” your government ALLOWS you to have are popguns useless against anything more dangerous than a rabbit or paper target.  There was a time when a English yeomen were the backbone of your defense.  Now you are a subject.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> For goodness sakes, you are having trouble crossing the damn road ... That would be kind of embarrassing.
> Seems as though y'all cannot do much of anything without getting permission.
> ...


Well, in the UK, we cross the road. In America, it's called jaywalking. We have the right to cross the road, seems to be a privilege in America.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Yes and that’s what it said between the lines.  You only can do what the government ALLOWS you to do.  Your every movement is watched by cameras, anything you say that the government doesn’t like can be termed “hate speech”, banned and you can be punished for speaking about your honest beliefs.


Is that what you think? Why are Americans so full of fallacies on the UK? What's gone wrong?


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Well, in the UK, we cross the road. In America, it's called jaywalking. We have the right to cross the road, seems to be a privilege in America.



.

They do tend to put crosswalks and enforce jaywalking laws in places where Progressives like you live.
They have to protect the vote I guess ... Because you people will walk out in front of car if someone doesn't stop you.


.​


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Is that what you think? Why are Americans so full of fallacies on the UK? What's gone wrong?


.

You know, it's kind of funny when you say we are full of fallacies on the UK.
Seriously ... The UK doesn't tend to come up in conversations at all ... It's kind of like we don't care what you do.

You know ... The fighting part in our Revolution all started when you sorry bastards were on your way to Concord to confiscate guns and ammo.
You Brits never learn ...   

.​


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> They do tend to put crosswalks and enforce jaywalking laws in places where Progressives like you live.
> They have to protect the vote I guess ... Because you people will walk out in front of car if someone doesn't stop you.
> ...


Rights and privileges are only brought up by gun nuts because you don't have a valid arguement. Having a gun for defence is a fallacy, at best. Just like in any country, you have a gun because you simply like guns. A farmer may need a gun to control vermin, same as a gamekeeper, that's about it. Everyone has a gun for leisure.

What you guys need to talk about is responsibilities. Whichever founding father bolted on the 2nd amendment fucking screwed your country up. Gun nuts ever since.

But that's where you guys are at. You need guns because you have too many nut jobs with guns. So you have to protect yourself from guns. What a dreadful state of affairs.

But at least you're free (whatever that means)


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> You know, it's kind of funny when you say we are full of fallacies on the UK.
> Seriously ... The UK doesn't tend to come up in conversations at all ... It's kind of like we don't care what you do.
> ...


That's why, one American guy pedals a fallacy and the sheep follow.

You need to go back to school and learn about American independence. If you took the time to learn at school, it was about trade and taxation, guns were never mentioned. And as Americans were getting beat, the French stepped in to help you guys. How do I know? When I was in Paris, I took a photo of a French general statue and read up on him when I got home. So stop lying you slimy weasel. You surely can't be that thick over your own history.


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> That's why, one American guy pedals a fallacy and the sheep follow.
> 
> You need to go back to school and learn about American independence. If you took the time to learn at school, it was about trade and taxation, guns were never mentioned. And as Americans were getting beat, the French stepped in to help you guys. How do I know? When I was in Paris, I took a photo of a French general statue and read up on him when I got home. So stop lying you slimy weasel. You surely can't be that thick over your own history.
> 
> View attachment 590680View attachment 590681


.

*You need to learn to read *... I posted that the fighting part of our Revolution started (at the North Bridge outside of Lexington for better reference)
when the British Regulars were met by the Minutemen while on their way to Concord to confiscate guns and ammo.

If you really want me to ... I can give you an account of the skirmish in detail, to include the dead,
and what the British ran into during their retreat back to Boston that day.


.​


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 20, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> *You need to learn to read *... I posted that the fighting part of our Revolution started (at the North Bridge outside of Lexington for better reference)
> when the British Regulars were met by the Minutemen while on their way to Concord to confiscate guns and ammo.
> ...


There's no need, I'm used to all the fallacies you guys come out with to beef up your history, to sound macho, to rely on the other guy not knowing. Sorry cupcake, you've come unstuck this time.

Back to grass cutting for you clutching your holster. Get mowing boy.


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> There's no need, I'm used to all the fallacies you guys come out with to beef up your history, to sound macho, to rely on the other guy not knowing. Sorry cupcake, you've come unstuck this time.
> 
> Back to grass cutting for you clutching your holster. Get mowing boy.


.

I mean if you cannot handle the history, that's not my problem ... And I have no desire to sound macho.

I don't care if your insecure ass needs to tell yourself the moon is made of cheese.
You seem to be the person that is a bit over-emotionally attached to your views.

And ... It's the middle of winter and I don't need to mow dumbass

.​


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The op created a fallacy by stating having a gun whilst mowing the lawn


No.   He created a scenario, for the sake of argument.
So... you -still- can't tell us why you think -anyone- claimed they need a gun to mow the law.     
That's just what you -want- someone to have said, because you know you can manage, sometimes, to beat down a straw man.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Everytime a gun nut comes up with a scenario on the need for a gun, or a gun concealed or open carry, it's always a fallacy


Thank you for demonstrating you do not what a fallacy is.


----------



## BlackSand (Jan 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Thank you for demonstrating you do not what a fallacy is.


.

That silly nitwit posted an article the other day that proved the point he was trying to make was incorrect ...
and was too stubborn to realize that reading the article before he posted it might have been a good idea.

.​


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Rights and privileges are only brought up by gun nuts because you don't have a valid arguement.


Rights, by their very nature, are a valid argument.


Captain Caveman said:


> Having a gun for defence is a fallacy, at best.


In the US, guns are used in self-defense at least 10x more often than to commit murder.
Where's the fallacy?


Captain Caveman said:


> Just like in any country, you have a gun because you simply like guns. A farmer may need a gun to control vermin, same as a gamekeeper, that's about it. Everyone has a gun for leisure.


A statement you cannot demonstrate to be true.
And even if you did:  Rights, by their very nature, are a valid argumen


Captain Caveman said:


> Whichever founding father bolted on the 2nd amendment fucking screwed your country up.


A statement you cannot demonstrate to be true.
And even if you did:  Rights, by their very nature, are a valid argument.


----------



## 1stNickD (Jan 20, 2022)

It should be up to the owner of the firearm as to how they choose to carry it with them. I prefer conceal carry when I choose to carry something. Mostly I am happy I live where I seldom feel the need.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 21, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> I think conceal carry is best.
> 
> 
> Say you and your neighbor don't like each other. One day you're out mowing the lawn with your Glock 19 9mm on your hip.
> ...



I think you need help.

the rest of the answer?

Carry any way you want….there should be
No law as far as mandating one or the other.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> No gun is always better than a hidden gun or a visible gun. Allow the burglar to take what he needs and save the lives of a wife and children.
> 
> In 99.9% of home burglaries the intention isn't to commit murder.



In Britain torture of the victims is common. The criminals know the victims can’t fight back and they know the police aren’t likely to show up…..so boiling water,  hot water and beatings are common. Don’t forget the casual rape and sexual assault.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The homeowner death statistics don't bear that out. Home burglaries in Canada most often by far don't end in death.
> 
> No guns or fewer guns is always preferable to more guns from my perspective as a Canadian. I appreciate that most Americans don't agree. My relatives living in America don't all agree with me either, but some do.



Yor social welfare state hasn’t reached the point of creating fatherless homes….fatherless boys become the sociopaths who commit violent crimes.

In the U.S., our Great Society welfare plan destroyed inner city families and now we have generations of young males raised in single mother homes…..these boys are the ones committing almost all of our violence……left wing policies in Canada are creating that same situation


----------



## westwall (Jan 21, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Never going to happen in our lifetimes.





How do you know.


----------



## Donald H (Jan 21, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yor social welfare state hasn’t reached the point of creating fatherless homes….fatherless boys become the sociopaths who commit violent crimes.


We do have lots of fatherless homes too, but our government provides for those mothers and children in ways that you would know aren't available in America. You've analzyed the difference correctly by mentioning social welfare. 


2aguy said:


> In the U.S., our Great Society welfare plan destroyed inner city families and now we have generations of young males raised in single mother homes….


I can't disagree on that. You've being very honest and frank about the issue.


2aguy said:


> .these boys are the ones committing almost all of our violence……


Those children would certainly be responsible for a large part of the violence.


2aguy said:


> left wing policies in Canada are creating that same situation


On that I have to disagree. Canada's similar problem is growing as is the problem in many countries. But you can't say that lack of social policies in America has caused the problems you're referring to and then say that social welfare in Canada has caused the same problems. That's a direct contradiction, in that social welfare is a leftist ideology. Or at least more leftist.

You're being completely honest about the situation in America and that's appreciated. 

Do you now want to tie this into the gun debate and suggest that it has something to do with the number of shootings and hence, a need for more good guys with guns. I think we might be able to find some common ground on some issues related to America's guns.

Be aware that you'll be talking to somebody who has extensive knowledge on the topics related to guns.


----------



## Donald H (Jan 21, 2022)

2aguy said:


> In Britain torture of the victims is common. The criminals know the victims can’t fight back and they know the police aren’t likely to show up…..so boiling water,  hot water and beatings are common.


I don't know any specifics on what sort of torture is happening in Britain but I suspect that could be happening.


2aguy said:


> Don’t forget the casual rape and sexual assault.


I'm not really sure what you  are suggesting is happening in Britain concerning rape frequency or comparable brutality. I 'do' know that rape is a crime of violence against women.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Be aware that you'll be talking to somebody who has extensive knowledge on the topics related to guns.


----------



## marvin martian (Jan 21, 2022)

Zincwarrior said:


> Open carry is really only viable in rural environments, which is fine. CC is better in suburban/urban environments for many reasons.
> 
> Also for the record, friends don't let friends drive Glock.😎



No Glock? Why?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> We do have lots of fatherless homes too, but our government provides for those mothers and children in ways that you would know aren't available in America. You've analzyed the difference correctly by mentioning social welfare.
> 
> I can't disagree on that. You've being very honest and frank about the issue.
> 
> ...




It isn't the money, you idiot....it is absent fathers......they create the breeding ground for gang members and other criminals, and the daughters who get pregnant at 15.......


----------



## Zincwarrior (Jan 21, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> No Glock? Why?


1. Its a joke.
2. To make a Glock a  pistol comparable to a Sig, Walther, etc. you have to rebuild it. Replace the sights, get a trigger job, etc.  Its not Springfield bad but there are better options.


----------



## marvin martian (Jan 21, 2022)

Zincwarrior said:


> 1. Its a joke.
> 2. To make a Glock a  pistol comparable to a Sig, Walther, etc. you have to rebuild it. Replace the sights, get a trigger job, etc.  Its not Springfield bad but there are better options.



1. Why is Glock "a joke"? They're used worldwide by police and military, including tons of elite units, not to mention millions of civilians.
2. Comparable how? Reliability? Functionality? 

I'm not trying to be combative, just honestly curious. I've owned and shot Glocks for 25+ years, as well as other makes, and unless you're just fundamentally against the brand for some personal reason (totally your right to be, btw), I don't see the problem.


----------



## Zincwarrior (Jan 21, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> 1. Why is Glock "a joke"? They're used worldwide by police and military, including tons of elite units, not to mention millions of civilians.


Not Glocks are a joke, that it was a joke. Humor. 
Interestingly was watching a video on not French forces squad TOEs, and it includes HKs, Glocks, and a genuine modern version of a knee mortar. Interesting.


marvin martian said:


> 2. Comparable how? Reliability? Functionality?


Accuracy delivered via better sights and trigger pull. Glocks are generally reasonably reliable, but they are late to the game on recent innovations. 


marvin martian said:


> I'm not trying to be combative, just honestly curious. I've owned and shot Glocks for 25+ years, as well as other makes, and unless you're just fundamentally against the brand for some personal reason (totally your right to be, btw), I don't see the problem.


No I don't have anything against Glocks. I just don't let friends drive them. ; P


----------



## Donald H (Jan 21, 2022)

2aguy said:


> It isn't the money, you idiot....it is absent fathers......they create the breeding ground for gang members and other criminals, and the daughters who get pregnant at 15.......


You're wrong if you think I disagree with that. Of course it's the absent fathers mostly. But I would suggest that spins off to lack of resources too. Do you think that's idiotic or do you think it's a rational conclusion? 

You've initiated a very worthwhile discussion and so now I'm wondering if we have anyone else agreeing with the premises you've raised?

I would suggest there's lots of room to tie this into the gun issue.


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Jan 21, 2022)

If you're open carrying while mowing your lawn.

Your gun is in the holster. 

Your neighbor sneaks up to you and shoots you dead.

He'll claim self-defense to the cops when the cops arrive, saying you were in the process of pulling your gun, which is a lie.

As long as there are no witnesses or cameras, I bet your neighbor will get off Scott free.

Even if your neighbor shoots you and leaves you a paraplegic, it would simply be your word against his. Your neighbor would get off Scott free.


----------



## Donald H (Jan 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


>


Gun related topics are much more extensive than you would appreciate. The topic isn't to physical properties of guns, and types of guns best suited to the job.

I think that 2A has raised some good points that can relate to guns and the frequency of gun violence. Why not calm down and join in the discussion? It might not hurt to add your input to what is said between us.


----------



## Donald H (Jan 21, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> If you're open carrying while mowing your lawn.
> 
> Your gun is in the holster.
> 
> ...


Excellent point! You're saying precisely that the bad guy is enabled by a good guy with a gun. Enabled to commit murder in some cases and get away with it!

And so now, let's take it to the next level to determine if that is or has happened.


----------



## marvin martian (Jan 21, 2022)

Zincwarrior said:


> Not Glocks are a joke, that it was a joke. Humor.
> Interestingly was watching a video on not French forces squad TOEs, and it includes HKs, Glocks, and a genuine modern version of a knee mortar. Interesting.
> 
> Accuracy delivered via better sights and trigger pull. Glocks are generally reasonably reliable, but they are late to the game on recent innovations.
> ...



Thanks for giving me a real answer.

I've run into a few old timers who hate on Glocks because "plastic guns aren't real guns" and they "have no safety".


----------



## Zincwarrior (Jan 21, 2022)

You forgot the epic phrase they use to say: "tupperware gun." Fortunately that debate has gone away for some years.


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Jan 21, 2022)

Glocks are very expensive.

A bad value.

But not bad guns, if you have the money to throw away.


----------



## Zincwarrior (Jan 21, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Glocks are very expensive.
> 
> A bad value.
> 
> But not bad guns, if you have the money to throw away.


There's one I had not heard.  Please define an inexpensive pistol. In this instance lets say a 9mm with a 4.5ish in barrel.


----------



## Zincwarrior (Jan 21, 2022)

Also, Glocks aren't expensive. This is expensive.




__





						Alien FULL KIT – Lancer Systems
					






					lancer-systems.com
				







Had  an M class shooter with one at a falling steel match a few month's back. so nice.


----------



## marvin martian (Jan 21, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Glocks are very expensive.
> 
> A bad value.
> 
> But not bad guns, if you have the money to throw away.



Expensive compared to what? I just purchased a Glock 43, and the price was about the same as comparable guns from S&W, Ruger, Sig, etc.

Don't buy into the Hollywood bullshit that Glocks are made of porcelain or some shit like that, don't show up in metal detectors, and cost a fortune.


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Jan 21, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> Expensive compared to what? I just purchased a Glock 43, and the price was about the same as comparable guns from S&W, Ruger, Sig, etc.
> 
> Don't buy into the Hollywood bullshit that Glocks are made of porcelain or some shit like that, don't show up in metal detectors, and cost a fortune.



You can tell me you bought your glock for $200, and I'd believe it. There are great deals out there.

Normally, you'd pay $500 for a glock, and about $380 for a Ruger or a S&W. Similar models.

Plus you'll have to buy mods for your glock to get it work like you want that come standard with the S&W.

My experience.

Your glock will shoot when you pull the trigger and that's all that's required.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Gun related topics are much more extensive than you would appreciate. The topic isn't to physical properties of guns, and types of guns best suited to the job.


I am -fully- appreciate of how broad and deep the gun issue is.
I also-fully- appreciative of the fact you have no intention of discussing the issue beyond the point where your position is effectively  challenged, you are challenged to support your claims with something other than your opinion, and/or you are not allowed to take the conversation past a point you know you cannot defend.

If you think you are able to prove me wrong with regard to the above, then say so, and then I'll be happy to join your 'discussion'.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Excellent point! You're saying precisely that the bad guy is enabled by a good guy with a gun. Enabled to commit murder in some cases and get away with it!


Absolute nonsense. 
There's no necessary relationship between the posession and use of firearms by the "good guys" and the possession and misuse of firerams by the "bad guys".
That is, the fact I have a gun in no way enables someone else to commit murder with a gun.


----------



## Donald H (Jan 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Absolute nonsense.
> There's no necessary relationship between the posession and use of firearms by the "good guys" and the possession and misuse of firerams by the "bad guys".
> That is, the fact I have a gun in no way enables someone else to commit murder with a gun.


Perhaps there's no point in attempting a discussion with you after all. You're far too entrenched in your dogma to even accept the obvious. Others do. 

It wasn't me who brought up the suggestion that carrying a gun that is visible to others could enable a bad guy to shoot a good guy dead and then get away with it.

However, I would prefer to continue the discussion I was having with 2A because I think I witnessed a naivety that I wasn't previously aware of. This explains the reason for the bolstering that was evident. Nuff said for now.


----------



## marvin martian (Jan 21, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> You can tell me you bought your glock for $200, and I'd believe it. There are great deals out there.
> 
> Normally, you'd pay $500 for a glock, and about $380 for a Ruger or a S&W. Similar models.
> 
> ...



WTF? Where do you live?

What mods are you talking about?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Perhaps there's no point in attempting a discussion with you after all. You're far too entrenched in your dogma to even accept the obvious.


Thank you for proving me correct.
But hey - keep pushing your hasty generalization fallacy with the hope no one else will call you on it.


----------



## Donald H (Jan 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> I am -fully- appreciate of how broad and deep the gun issue is.
> I also-fully- appreciative of the fact you have no intention of discussing the issue beyond the point where your position is effectively  challenged, you are challenged to support your claims with something other than your opinion, and/or you are not allowed to take the conversation past a point you know you cannot defend.
> 
> If you think you are able to prove me wrong with regard to the above, then say so, and then I'll be happy to join your 'discussion'.


That deserves a final reply. You need to state the position on which we disagree and which you effectively challenge. If you're capable of doing that in a rational way then you will hear more replies on the issues, from me. And if you can't do that then you will once again receive what you deserve. It's always your choice.

Suggestion for you: Someone suggests that a bad guy with a gun could murder with a gun, a good guy with a gun, providing there was no cameras or other evidence to support an accusation of murder. 

You can at least agree that it's possible, as your opening position.
I could then pursue the question by suggesting that it's possibly already happening in America.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> That deserves a final reply. You need to state the position on which we disagree and which you effectively challenge.


I did:
_Absolute nonsense.
There's no necessary relationship between the possession and use of firearms by the "good guys" and the possession and misuse of firearms by the "bad guys".
That is, the fact I have a gun in no way enables someone else to commit murder with a gun.     _ 


Donald H said:


> If you're capable of doing that in a rational way then you will hear more replies on the issues, from me.


And yet, you won't meaningfully do so...
...because you have no intention of discussing the issue beyond the point where your position is effectively  challenged, you are challenged to support your claims with something other than your opinion, and/or you are not allowed to take the conversation past a point you know you cannot defend.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jan 21, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> That's why, one American guy pedals a fallacy and the sheep follow.
> 
> You need to go back to school and learn about American independence. If you took the time to learn at school, it was about trade and taxation, guns were never mentioned. And as Americans were getting beat, the French stepped in to help you guys. How do I know? When I was in Paris, I took a photo of a French general statue and read up on him when I got home. So stop lying you slimy weasel. You surely can't be that thick over your own history.
> 
> View attachment 590680View attachment 590681


We weren't being beaten any worse than we had been we had for the past seven years.  We had defeated the British will to fight.  The American war had become so unpopular at home that Britain's best generals wouldn't come over here to fight despite having an unbroken record of out numbering and out equipping the Continental Army and the various Militias.  We kept getting beaten and losing battles, but we never stopped fighting.  The French finally decided to end their cold war with Britain and declared war adding actual French forces to our fight.  The French land forces weren't important, but the French Navy stopped the RN from lifting Cornwallis's forces out of Yorktown by sea.  He was already beaten having retreated to a defensive position that could be supplied and relieved by sea and the Contintential Navy lacked the force to blockade the Yorktown Peninsula.
There are a lot of similarities between the American Revolutionary War and the Vietnamese War.  In both cases the much weaker force eventually prevailed with logistical support from another world power and an unwillingness to accept defeat being the ultimate deciding factors.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jan 21, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Rights and privileges are only brought up by gun nuts because you don't have a valid arguement. Having a gun for defence is a fallacy, at best. Just like in any country, you have a gun because you simply like guns. A farmer may need a gun to control vermin, same as a gamekeeper, that's about it. Everyone has a gun for leisure.
> 
> What you guys need to talk about is responsibilities. Whichever founding father bolted on the 2nd amendment fucking screwed your country up. Gun nuts ever since.
> 
> ...


Most Americans DON'T have guns.  Guns are expensive.  However, those of us with guns tend to have anywhere from several to upwards of a hundred.  For instance, I only have two, one of which would even be legal in the UK (a Ruger 10/22).  The other is a legal 9mm handgun that I have a CCW for but almost never carry.


----------



## OKTexas (Jan 21, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> I think conceal carry is best.
> 
> 
> Say you and your neighbor don't like each other. One day you're out mowing the lawn with your Glock 19 9mm on your hip.
> ...




You're nucking futs.

.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jan 21, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> 1. Why is Glock "a joke"? They're used worldwide by police and military, including tons of elite units, not to mention millions of civilians.
> 2. Comparable how? Reliability? Functionality?
> 
> I'm not trying to be combative, just honestly curious. I've owned and shot Glocks for 25+ years, as well as other makes, and unless you're just fundamentally against the brand for some personal reason (totally your right to be, btw), I don't see the problem.


Glocks tend to be made fun of because they are "plastic pistols" just like M-16s were made fun of when they were new because they were small and looked like plastic toys.  They were often called "Mattie Mattels" in Vietnam. An M-16 was about half the weight and two thirds the size of the M-14 it replaced (Mattel was a toymaker back then).


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jan 21, 2022)

Donald H said:


> That deserves a final reply. You need to state the position on which we disagree and which you effectively challenge. If you're capable of doing that in a rational way then you will hear more replies on the issues, from me. And if you can't do that then you will once again receive what you deserve. It's always your choice.
> 
> Suggestion for you: Someone suggests that a bad guy with a gun could murder with a gun, a good guy with a gun, providing there was no cameras or other evidence to support an accusation of murder.
> 
> ...


A bad guy with a gun could murder an unarmed good guy under the same circumstances and get away with it.  The problem is that there are almost always witnesses or cameras around anymore unless you are out in the boondocks.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The homeowner death statistics don't bear that out. Home burglaries in Canada most often by far don't end in death.
> 
> No guns or fewer guns is always preferable to more guns from my perspective as a Canadian. I appreciate that most Americans don't agree. My relatives living in America don't all agree with me either, but some do.


You voted for Trudeau.  Nuff said.


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The homeowner death statistics don't bear that out. Home burglaries in Canada most often by far don't end in death.
> 
> No guns or fewer guns is always preferable to more guns from my perspective as a Canadian. I appreciate that most Americans don't agree. My relatives living in America don't all agree with me either, but some do.


The point is...what I said.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Now that you made yourself feel better - can you tell us why you think -anyone- claimed they need a gun to mow the lawn?


I'll bite.  I admit that I don't carry as consistently as I wish I did but my want is to carry always except when in the shower and in bed, during which times a gun should be at arm's length.  I do carry when mowing most of the time.  In the past 30 years, I have had to shoot a couple stray dogs threatening me or my own on my property - while mowing.

My wish is also that I never have to draw my weapon on another human being; the chances are extremely high that I will get that wish.  But almost all who have been robbed, their homes invaded, or otherwise attacked did not know it was coming so, for me, carrying a gun is a small thing that I do, just in case.

I never open carry in public.  I wish I could.  I wish more people did and, once more people are so it's commonplace, I would as well.  For now, there have been some cases where the open-carry person was the target.  If I'm second in line at the cash register and the first in line pulls a gun on the cashier, there's a small chance I change the outcome.  But if the first in line pulls his gun on me first, I'm either surrendering my gun or possibly getting killed.  

This open carry story is among the most interesting a quick DDG search yielded because the bad guy simply walked up behind the open carrier and snatched the gun from a holster - I use retention holsters even for concealed carry when I can (heavy coat winter days, for instance).  

The other interesting point is that the police mentioned that the open carrier may not have a concealed carry permit because there's a year-long wait in Detroit to get an appointment with the police to get a permit so open carry can often be the only option.  What a sad situation for American citizens to be put at such risk for their life and safety and this highlights the need for dropping all gun control laws restricting the constitutional carry, concealed or open, nationwide for anybody.









						Suspect who stole gun from man open carrying at Detroit gas station arrested for unrelated crime
					

A surveillance camera at the BP at Seven Mile and Wyoming captured the perp in a red Nike hoodie walking up behind a 53-year-old man open carrying a pistol. He yanks it from the holster, points it at the victim, and takes off running.




					www.fox2detroit.com


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Yes and that’s what it said between the lines.  You only can do what the government ALLOWS you to do.  Your every movement is watched by cameras, anything you say that the government doesn’t like can be termed “hate speech”, banned and you can be punished for speaking about your honest beliefs.  The “weapons” your government ALLOWS you to have are popguns useless against anything more dangerous than a rabbit or paper target.  There was a time when a English yeomen were the backbone of your defense.  Now you are a subject.


But they can cross the road without jaywalking charges.  It is unbelievable the tokens that please weak-minded people while their freedom is stripped away.


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> I'll bite.  I admit that I don't carry as consistently as I wish I did but my want is to carry always except when in the shower and in bed, during which times a gun should be at arm's length.  I do carry when mowing most of the time.  In the past 30 years, I have had to shoot a couple stray dogs threatening me or my own on my property - while mowing.
> 
> My wish is also that I never have to draw my weapon on another human being; the chances are extremely high that I will get that wish.  But almost all who have been robbed, their homes invaded, or otherwise attacked did not know it was coming so, for me, carrying a gun is a small thing that I do, just in case.
> 
> ...


For those reasons I would never open carry. Too risky. I would also never use my weapon in defense of another unless I was sure of my own safety.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> There are a lot of similarities between the American Revolutionary War and the Vietnamese War.  In both cases the much weaker force eventually prevailed with logistical support from another world power and an unwillingness to accept defeat being the ultimate deciding factors.


And twice in Afghanistan.

The ability of a poor people to defeat serious military strength has been proven many times throughout history - when they have arms.  No telling what happens to GB and Australia in the next generations as a rebuilt USSR moves on Europe and the Chinese move on Australia; those citizens won't have arms and their militaries will be easily beaten by those enemies.  Living on Islands, it will be hard for others to send them arms - and I hope we don't arm either; they had arms and destroyed them; they chose their own destinies.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Well, in the UK, we cross the road. In America, it's called jaywalking. We have the right to cross the road, seems to be a privilege in America.



You must be considered a true libertarian in the UK, fighting for the right to cross the road in front of moving traffic where they won't necessarily expect you.  You go you freedom fighting rebel, you.  

But without your guns, how will you fight to preserve your right to jaywalk should the Crown decide it's safer to cross at the intersection?


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> For those reasons I would never open carry. Too risky. I would also never use my weapon in defense of another unless I was sure of my own safety.


I understand where you're coming from, and I don't carry with the expectation of playing cop, but I hope I'll be willing to take some measure of risk to save others.  Our military do that all day every day.  The police do it, firefighters, even ambulance teams do it.  If I see a child drowning in a lake, I hope I'd jump in.

So there are scenarios where others put their lives at risk and where I hope I would put my life at risk to save others.  I won't say what I'd do in a scenario where my gun would be required to save others because I can't predict what the scenarios would be or what my response would be.  I can say that I hope my personal safety is a concern but that it is not the only concern or the only deciding factor.  I hope that I remember that all lives matter.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Be aware that you'll be talking to somebody who has extensive knowledge on the topics related to guns.


Will you be demonstrating that knowledge any time soon?  Haven't seen it just yet.


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> I understand where you're coming from, and I don't carry with the expectation of playing cop, but I hope I'll be willing to take some measure of risk to save others.  Our military do that all day every day.  The police do it, firefighters, even ambulance teams do it.  If I see a child drowning in a lake, I hope I'd jump in.
> 
> So there are scenarios where others put their lives at risk and where I hope I would put my life at risk to save others.  I won't say what I'd do in a scenario where my gun would be required to save others because I can't predict what the scenarios would be or what my response would be.  I can say that I hope my personal safety is a concern but that it is not the only concern or the only deciding factor.  I hope that I remember that all lives matter.


If I saw a child drowning in a lake I'd look around for someone younger than myself to jump in (I'm 81 and haven't swum in 50 years).


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I 'do' know that rape is a crime of violence against women.


Wow!  I haven't yet seen any knowledge from you about guns but I'm just blown away by your knowledge about rape.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> If you're open carrying while mowing your lawn.
> 
> Your gun is in the holster.
> 
> ...



Wow.  You found a scenario where it might not make sense to open carry.  All open carry should immediately be banned.  

You're an idiot.  First off, you could try to get along with your neighbor.  

Second, if you know your neighbors might want to harm you, adjust your patterns to maintain your advantage.  If concealed carry over open carry makes sense then adjust.  Install cameras showing your entire lawn.  

I get along great with my neighbors but I have 100% coverage of my lawn with high-quality surveillance cameras with storage to the Internet.  If my neighbor kills me while mowing, it's on camera.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> You must be considered a true libertarian in the UK, fighting for the right to cross the road in front of moving traffic where they won't necessarily expect you.  You go you freedom fighting rebel, you.
> 
> But without your guns, how will you fight to preserve your right to jaywalk should the Crown decide it's safer to cross at the intersection?


No, I'm conservative and even voted for Farage. We have guns, but you're American and thick as fuck on the subject. We cross the road, you guys need a light to say "Walk" and "Don't Walk", can't get anymore fucking retarded as that.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Wow!  I haven't yet seen any knowledge from you about guns but I'm just blown away by your knowledge about rape.


I've noticed that you're trying to make yourself out to be the most extremist on the board on the guns issue.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I've noticed that you're trying to make yourself out to be the most extremist on the board on the guns issue.


I am absolutely the most conservative person on this board regarding all individual liberty, and the Constitution of the United States of America.  If you think our Constitution and individual liberty are extremist, then that says more about you than it does about me.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> I am absolutely the most conservative person on this board regarding all individual liberty, and the Constitution of the United States of America.  If you think our Constitution and individual liberty are extremist, then that says more about you than it does about me.


I'll test you on your individual liberty. But on either liberty for all, or individual liberty, I consider guns detract from liberties. One of the main reasons why America has fallen to 58th. on liberty is because of the lack of a safe environment due to an excess of guns and murder by gun.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> One of the main reasons why America has fallen to 58th. on liberty is because of the lack of a safe environment due to an excess of guns and murder by gun.


Think so?
You're really sure about this?
I mean REALLY sure?
Good.
Please demonstrate your claim to be true

(PS: this is your cue tuck tail and run)


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Think so?
> You're really sure about this?
> I mean REALLY sure?
> Good.
> ...











						We need to prioritise people over guns.
					

We have the right to be safe from gun violence.




					www.amnesty.org
				






> Gun violence is a contemporary global human rights issue. Gun-related violence threatens our most fundamental human right, the right to life.
> 
> Gun violence is a daily tragedy affecting the lives of individuals around the world. More than 500 people die every day because of violence committed with firearms.
> 
> ...


----------



## M14 Shooter (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> We need to prioritise people over guns.
> 
> 
> We have the right to be safe from gun violence.
> ...


Uh huh.
Now, demonstrate that "gun violence" and "an excess of guns" is "one of the main reasons why America has fallen to 58th. on liberty".
Or, tuck tail and run.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> No, I'm conservative and even voted for Farage. We have guns, but you're American and thick as fuck on the subject. We cross the road, you guys need a light to say "Walk" and "Don't Walk", can't get anymore fucking retarded as that.


Conservative  how?  Fiscally?  Taxes?  Immigration?  Social welfare?

Because you're certainly not conservative in regards to personal liberty and the right to life and to defend that life.  You're certainly not conservative when it comes to right of women to say NO to rapists.  You're certainly not conservative when it comes to the right of senior citizens and otherwise helpless in the UK to be safe in their homes.

edit: but you've got that conservative about the right to cross the street down pat!  Good job.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Conservative  how?  Fiscally?  Taxes?  Immigration?  Social welfare?
> 
> Because you're certainly not conservative in regards to personal liberty and the right to life and to defend that life.  You're certainly not conservative when it comes to right of women to say NO to rapists.  You're certainly not conservative when it comes to the right of senior citizens and otherwise helpless in the UK to be safe in their homes.
> 
> edit: but you've got that conservative about the right to cross the street down pat!  Good job.


Suck it up buttercup, voted Tory all my life. Just shows you how thick you are on politics and political beliefs. The tax burden in the UK is slightly higher than the US, but you pay over double in Health Insurance premiums than what we lost in tax. So you do the maths (math in funny speak) before opening gob.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Feb 9, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Suck it up buttercup, voted Tory all my life. Just shows you how thick you are on politics and political beliefs.


Why does insulting people make you feel btter?


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> We need to prioritise people over guns.
> 
> 
> We have the right to be safe from gun violence.
> ...


The link is really nothing more than Amnesty International's infomercial for the Arms Trade Treaty.  They are focusing on getting the United States into it while ignoring these stats from their own article:

*Percentage of killings committed with firearms:*​*72% in Brazil*​*91.1% in El Salvador*​*58.9% in Honduras*​
I'd like to see them go to El Salvador and stage their protests.  Oh, wait.  It's not required because El Salvador is considered to already have restrictive gun control laws, 100% licensed ownership only, 100% background checks, 100% records/registration of all gun purchases and all ammunition purchases.  

And El Salvador has signed and been bound by the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty since 2014.  Guess the ATT isn't all it's cracked up to be, is it?  It's not really about protecting lives; it's about registering guns in the hands of law abiding citizens with no concern or change in the behaviors or gun ownership of criminals.  

Post world enslavement, criminals won't be fighting the New World Order globalists; they'll still be just criminals.  Since there will always be criminals, the globalists accept that and focus, instead, on the citizens who might have the mindset and tools to really fight them.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I'll test you on your individual liberty. But on either liberty for all, or individual liberty, I consider guns detract from liberties. One of the main reasons why America has fallen to 58th. on liberty is because of the lack of a safe environment due to an excess of guns and murder by gun.



When government supports and enables emotional insecurity as a means of seducing people into government control, that is the threat to liberty.  That insecure people have emotional problems is not a metric of liberty.

Liberty isn't free.  It isn't always safe.  Because we're free, sometimes there are dangers.  We accept those risks


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> The link is really nothing more than Amnesty International's infomercial for the Arms Trade Treaty.  They are focusing on getting the United States into it while ignoring these stats from their own article:
> 
> *Percentage of killings committed with firearms:*​*72% in Brazil*​*91.1% in El Salvador*​*58.9% in Honduras*​


Is it higher than 91% in America?
you'll forfeit your #1 position if you don't hone your talking points to make them relevant.

Just this initial attempt to make some point could have already started you down a road to irrelevance. I'm being generous. 

And so if you're clever enough to answer that question, will you be smart enough to answer a question of it being a per centage of what?


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> When government supports and enables emotional insecurity as a means of seducing people into government control, that is the threat to liberty.  That insecure people have emotional problems is not a metric of liberty.
> 
> Liberty isn't free.  It isn't always safe.  Because we're free, sometimes there are dangers.  We accept those risks


The compromising of liberty in America has resulted in it's slide to 58th. on freedom or liberty. The world's leading democracies have surged far ahead.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Suck it up buttercup, voted Tory all my life. Just shows you how thick you are on politics and political beliefs. The tax burden in the UK is slightly higher than the US, but you pay over double in Health Insurance premiums than what we lost in tax. So you do the maths (math in funny speak) before opening gob.


Voting Tory means nothing just as voting Republican means nothing.  Those are political parties and political parties blow with the wind.

And this isn't a discussion of tax policy in the UK versus the US.  You can start another thread if you want to compare economic models and tax policies.  In this discussion about guns you said you were a conservative.  Your only defense of that claim, so far, is that you vote Tory, which proves absolutely nothing about your conservative values, or lack thereof.

I asked if you were conservative in some areas where the term conservative is used other than conservative about liberty and life to give you a chance to back up your claim of conservatism.  Do you have anything to offer to back up your claim?  Because, as I said, you're not conservative about life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.  You're conservative about the right to cross the street.  You and the chicken.  Maybe you are the chicken.  Why did Captain Caveman cross the street?  To get to the other side, silly.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Just this initial attempt to make some point could have already started you down a road to irrelevance. I'm being generous.


Translation:
Once he effectively responds, you plan to tuck tail and run.
It's what you do.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Translation:
> Once he effectively responds, you plan to tuck tail and run.
> It's what you do.


I might award the #1 place back to you. 2A is quite out of the question as I suspect he has some mental illness problems to deal with.

Beware of up and coming gungoons! 
You'll have to compete with this one's preference to not carrying his gun only in the shower! That's dedication to the cause!!


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Is it higher than 91% in America?
> you'll forfeit your #1 position if you don't hone your talking points to make them relevant.
> 
> Just this initial attempt to make some point could have already started you down a road to irrelevance. I'm being generous.
> ...



Didn't you tell us all that you're an expert on this topic?  Apparently you're not even close and you don't even know how to use the google.  According to the FBI, in 2019 the firearms rate was 72.3 percent of murders by firearms.  Just in case it's not clear, 72.3 is less than 91.  So with our fairly wide open access to guns and ammunition, compared to El Salvador with very tightly controlled access and adherence to the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty, fewer of our murders are with guns.  Gun laws only apply to the law-abiding, whether in the United States or in El Salvador.  

By the way, if I were to get murdered, I'd prefer to be shot in the head than to be beaten to death, poisoned, electrocuted, drowned, injected with drugs, burned to death, strangled, asphyxiated, hacked to death, or blown up.  Rather than tortured or murdered by a slow way,   I'd rather go fast and painless.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I might award the #1 place back to you. 2A is quite out of the question as I suspect he has some mental illness problems to deal with.
> Beware of up and coming gungoons!
> You'll have to compete with this one's preference to not carrying his gun only in the shower! That's dedication to the cause!!


Thank you for proving me correct.   As usual.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Didn't you tell us all that you're an expert on this topic?  Apparently you're not even close and you don't even know how to use the google.  According to the FBI, in 2019 the firearms rate was 72.3 percent of murders by firearms.  Just in case it's not clear, 72.3 is less than 91.  So with our fairly wide open access to guns and ammunition, compared to El Salvador with very tightly controlled access and adherence to the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty, fewer of our murders are with guns.  Gun laws only apply to the law-abiding, whether in the United States or in El Salvador.


Now you have a % for us. And now you can try to find the number the % represents.

Can you answer the question 14Shooter couldn't answer? If the number of guns isn't the reason for Canada's much lower gun murder stats, then what is the reason?

If you can answer that then all bets are off on 14Shooter ever taking your place at #1. 
As he would say, he's tucked tail and ran away from that question! 


woodwork201 said:


> By the way, if I were to get murdered, I'd prefer to be shot in the head than to be beaten to death, poisoned, electrocuted, drowned, injected with drugs, burned to death, strangled, asphyxiated, hacked to death, or blown up.  Rather than tortured or murdered by a slow way,   I'd rather go fast and painless.


Hopefully the killer you're contemplating will take your preference into consideration?


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 9, 2022)

I did a study on the gun violence that was rampant in the late 1980's, using actual case histories. My findings were that gun violence was not a problem for the general population. Neither is it today. It's a liberal/media thing.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 9, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I did a study on the gun violence that was rampant in the late 1980's, using actual case histories. My findings were that gun violence was not a problem for the general population. Neither is it today. It's a liberal/media thing.


You've failed to answer the question and that places you no better than 14Shooter. 
And fwiw, you're also failing to answer the question on the % of what?


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> You've failed to answer the question and that places you no better than 14Shooter.
> And fwiw, you're also failing to answer the question on the % of what?


Where those questions directed at me?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Can you answer the question 14Shooter couldn't answer? If the number of guns isn't the reason for Canada's much lower gun murder stats, then what is the reason


^^^^^
This is how someone who knows they cannot prove their claim tries instead to get someone to disprove it.
When you call him on it, you'll get told you had your chance, and then he'll tuck his tail and run away.
As always.


----------



## whitehall (Feb 9, 2022)

You can't start an argument about such an important issue without defining the topic. What is the legal definition of "open carry" and what is the legal definition of "concealed". Is a handgun in the glove compartment defined as open carry or is it concealed? What about the environment? A rancher with a gun on his hip vs a rancher with a gun in his pocket? How about a hunter with a handgun as well as a rifle. Is he violating the law because the handgun is in his pocket? The laws vary from state to state.


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> You've failed to answer the question and that places you no better than 14Shooter.
> And fwiw, you're also failing to answer the question on the % of what?


This is interesting, and shows that gun violence must be studied very carefully. Wrong conclusions can result from cursory perusal of statistics.









						Guns and race: The different worlds of black and white Americans
					

Following a discussion by William Julius Wilson on public violence in poor communities, Richard Reeves and Sarah Holmes examine gun deaths in the U.S. by race, gender, age, and type.




					www.brookings.edu


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Now you have a % for us. And now you can try to find the number the % represents.
> 
> Can you answer the question 14Shooter couldn't answer? If the number of guns isn't the reason for Canada's much lower gun murder stats, then what is the reason?
> 
> ...



Do you really think I want, care about, or need your confirmation of my views?  You really are an idiot.  You still fail completely in demonstrating any of this superior knowledge you claim to hold on the topic of guns.

I'm not playing your game, running down your little research assignments.  I did one because it was to back up the point I made about El Salvador's 91%.  You take that for what it's worth to you.  But if there's other points you think you want me to know, you do your own research and make any point, supported by links and data, and post it.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

whitehall said:


> You can't start an argument about such an important issue without defining the topic. What is the legal definition of "open carry" and what is the legal definition of "concealed". Is a handgun in the glove compartment defined as open carry or is it concealed? What about the environment? A rancher with a gun on his hip vs a rancher with a gun in his pocket? How about a hunter with a handgun as well as a rifle. Is he violating the law because the handgun is in his pocket? The laws vary from state to state.


The terms are legally defined in all 50 states.  They're likely all very similar, written by the same brain trusts.  But if you want to do the google searches and post the definitions, feel free.  Otherwise, everyone on both sides pretty much knows the practical difference between open carry and concealed carry.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 10, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Do you really think I want, care about, or need your confirmation of my views?  You really are an idiot.  You still fail completely in demonstrating any of this superior knowledge you claim to hold on the topic of guns.
> 
> I'm not playing your game, running down your little research assignments.  I did one because it was to back up the point I made about El Salvador's 91%.  You take that for what it's worth to you.  But if there's other points you think you want me to know, you do your own research and make any point, supported by links and data, and post it.


Then I asked you what the 91% represented and what it represented in America.

For example, 91% of 100 is 91, while 91% of the thousands of shooting in the US in a year = ??

You introduced the 91%, you can bury it now if you like. I never did see any reason why it would be important.


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 10, 2022)

Donald H said:


> The homeowner death statistics don't bear that out. Home burglaries in Canada most often by far don't end in death.


My point is that murder only occurs when the resident is at home at the time of the burglary.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 10, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> My point is that murder only occurs when the resident is at home at the time of the burglary.


And tries to prevent the burglary with a gun?
In Canada the gun is missing and mostly because hardly anybody own handguns and the other guns are locked away in a safe place.


----------



## Woodznutz (Feb 10, 2022)

Donald H said:


> And tries to prevent the burglary with a gun?
> In Canada the gun is missing and mostly because hardly anybody own handguns and the other guns are locked away in a safe place.


I was actually talking about America, not Canada. Your burglars are clearly nicer than ours.


----------



## Donald H (Feb 10, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I was actually talking about America, not Canada. Your burglars are clearly nicer than ours.


I was aware of you talking about America. No, our burglar's aren't nicer. They may be fewer but the important difference is that Canadians are less likely to start a gunfight with a burglar and so there are less murdered homeowners.

I'm afraid that's completely contrary to US pro-gun logic.


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## M14 Shooter (Feb 10, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I was aware of you talking about America. No, our burglar's aren't nicer. They may be fewer but the important difference is that Canadians are less likely to start a gunfight with a burglar and so there are less murdered homeowners.
> *I'm afraid that's completely contrary to US pro-gun logic.*


*This *can only be true if you can demonstrate your claim...
_...the important difference is that Canadians are less likely to start a gunfight with a burglar and so there are less murdered homeowners...._
...to be true.
And you know you cannot.
So much for that.


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## Woodznutz (Feb 11, 2022)

Donald H said:


> I was aware of you talking about America. No, our burglar's aren't nicer. They may be fewer but the important difference is that Canadians are less likely to start a gunfight with a burglar and so there are less murdered homeowners.
> 
> I'm afraid that's completely contrary to US pro-gun logic.


You missed my point. Burglars kill homeowners because they don't want to be identified, or because they intended to kill them, not because the homeowner starts a gunfight. Many young hoodlems use robbery as a means to kill someone. The robbery is secondary.


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