# Slavery/Racism: Some Questions



## PoliticalChic (Mar 17, 2012)

Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....



1.	Liberals love the idea of the apology, that the *government should apologize for slavery,* Japanese internment, you name it.

2.	The Rabbis teach that no apology is legitimate unless the offender:

a.	Expresses remorse stating specifically what he has done
b.	Makes restitution
c.	Refrains, in similar circumstances, from committing the offense again.

3.	Based on the first of these, a governmental apology founders, without specifics as to who the we is, and who the they of the apology are.

4.	Take *the question of slavery vis-à-vis the American Government of today*. Is it guilty of slavery?

a.	If so, are those *African American members of government* equally guilty?

b.	Are the American *people alive today* guilty?

c.	If so, *which ones*? The black as well as the white?

d.	Is the guilt *heritable*for if it is, then would not those (the great majority of) Americans whose ancestors did not arrive until after slavery be exempt from apology?

e.	How about the ancestors of the 300,000 white males who *died to defeat slavery*? Exempt as well? And the whites who voted for the 14th amendment and the Civil Rights Act?

f.	And if not, on what basis are the *descendants of slaves* entitled to it?

5.	Is it not absurd that six or seven decades after the West defeated Nazi Racism we are still considering making government decisions based on genetics?

6.	To indulge in any racial preferences is not to award to a race, but, rather, *to the state, the power to created different classes *of citizens, and to rule on who shall belong to each class. This does not serve any desire for justice.

From chapter 12 of The Secret Knowledge, David Mamet.


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## Dragon (Mar 17, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> 1.	Liberals love the idea of the apology, that the *government should apologize for slavery,* Japanese internment, you name it.



Looks to me like your entire argument rests on this statement. At least, I didn't see anything else that wasn't about the subject of an "apology."

As applied to most "liberals," this statement is false. Most liberals see an apology as an empty gesture and couldn't care less. There are, of course, one or two exceptions, but that is going to be true of any broad claim. (Especially applied to liberals, who tend to be free thinkers and thus not easily bound or defined by dogma.)

On the subject of slavery or racism, do you have anything to say that has nothing to do with the idea of apology? Because that's much ado about nothing, frankly.


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## daveman (Mar 17, 2012)

Dragon said:


> (Especially applied to liberals, who tend to be free thinkers and thus not easily bound or defined by dogma.)



Nonsense.


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## Big Black Dog (Mar 17, 2012)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country.  The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.


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## Douger (Mar 17, 2012)

Big Black Dog said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country.  The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.


Lincoln tried. The Jews wouldn't accept it.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
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> ...



America is the greatest nation on earth

Great nations are capable of admitting their mistakes and not only slavery, but our treatment of blacks as a nation was a mistake

No reason we shouldn't own up to it. The key is not only admitting your mistakes but learning from them


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## Dragon (Mar 17, 2012)

daveman said:


> Dragon said:
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> > (Especially applied to liberals, who tend to be free thinkers and thus not easily bound or defined by dogma.)
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I mean real liberals, of course. The straw man stereotype in your brain may behave differently.


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## daveman (Mar 17, 2012)

Dragon said:


> daveman said:
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Real liberals like who?

This should be entertaining.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
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PC

Your questions appear like they were written by a child.....you didn't write them did you?


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## Dragon (Mar 17, 2012)

daveman said:


> Dragon said:
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Start with me. Expand to any poster on this board who would so self-label. For prominent liberals in politics, add Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders. Maybe Nancy Pelosi, too -- have to think about that but on the whole I'd say so.

That's not an exhaustive list but it will do for a start.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 17, 2012)

Big Black Dog said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country.  The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.



That is an over the top remark in poor taste and one of the most politically incorrect statements I have ever heard.
And damn funny too.


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## percysunshine (Mar 17, 2012)

Liberals should apologize for being air heads. Several times a day.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

percysunshine said:


> Liberals should apologize for being air heads. Several times a day.



That's a good one...

Libruls are STOOPID


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
> ...



Then you should have no trouble answering them.....


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## daveman (Mar 17, 2012)

Dragon said:


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You failed already.


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## MikeK (Mar 17, 2012)

Big Black Dog said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country.  The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.


While this proposed solution to the slavery issue will appeal to many Americans I'm sure it will offend many others.  But if the proposal to return the slaves to Africa were modified by providing every returned slave with a monetary settlement sufficient to ensure a comfortable and happy life in his/her native land, i.e. a de facto reparation, would that make the proposal more acceptable to those originally opposed to it?


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 17, 2012)

Apparently you guys haven't heard.
The Obama administration, after seeing the movie Minority Report - and using the notion of a pre-crime unit that arrests people before they commit a crime - have developed a branch of government that will "pre-apologize" for any actions it hasn't taken yet that might upset someone.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 17, 2012)

> Looks to me like your entire argument rests on this statement. At least, I didn't see anything else that wasn't about the subject of an "apology."
> 
> As applied to most "liberals," this statement is false. Most liberals see an apology as an empty gesture and couldn't care less. There are, of course, one or two exceptions, but that is going to be true of any broad claim. (Especially applied to liberals, who tend to be free thinkers and thus not easily bound or defined by dogma.)
> 
> On the subject of slavery or racism, do you have anything to say that has nothing to do with the idea of apology? Because that's much ado about nothing, frankly.


Correct. 

Liberals are pragmatists, unlike conservatives they disdain dogma and reactionaryism. 

Liberals are only interested in solutions that work, regardless that solutions political camp of origin. 

Conservatives adhere blindly to dogma  the proof of that can be found in the threads of this very forum: big government is bad, taxes are bad, liberals are bad. 

As for the OP, its mostly gibberish, ignorance, and idiocy.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

The bigger issue is not whether we should "apologize" for slavery but have we learned from our racist past?

All around us are examples where we have moved away from our racial animosity towards blacks and settled on new targets........Mexicans, gays and Muslims


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> The bigger issue is not whether we should "apologize" for slavery but have we learned from our racist past?
> 
> All around us are examples where we have moved away from our racial animosity towards blacks and settled on new targets........Mexicans, gays and Muslims



This is true.
Liberals in the late 50's and 60's thru federal housing and welfare have created multi-generational damage to the black community. Welfare was reformed (sort of) and many federal housing complexes have been closed (sort of). Even though these policies were enacted 60 years ago - it may very well be another 60 years before the damage from them are finally over.
However, it doesn't appear that liberals have learned from their mistakes. WIth expanding on the unconstitutional and racist affirmative action as well as continuously lowering the bar for minorities to get into college - and then lowering the bar again where a student can go to school free of charge for up to 6 years and never earn a degree.

Your right, we haven't learned.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > The bigger issue is not whether we should "apologize" for slavery but have we learned from our racist past?
> ...



LOL....yea, yea...we have heard it all before

Helping poor people only makes them lazy. We need to make them suffer more so they pick themselves up from their bootstraps


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Liberals are pragmatists, unlike conservatives they disdain dogma and reactionaryism.
> 
> Liberals are only interested in solutions that work, regardless that solutions political camp of origin.




Everyone already knew you were a mindless, partisan shill. There's no need to keep making the point over and over.


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> The bigger issue is not whether we should "apologize" for slavery but have we learned from our racist past?
> 
> All around us are examples where we have moved away from our racial animosity towards blacks and settled on new targets........Mexicans, gays and Muslims




That would be a good point if it weren't COMPLETELY WRONG.


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> [
> 
> LOL....yea, yea...we have heard it all before
> 
> Helping poor people only makes them lazy. We need to make them suffer more so they pick themselves up from their bootstraps




Liberals want to make them suffer just enough to keep voting democrat.


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## daveman (Mar 17, 2012)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > Looks to me like your entire argument rests on this statement. At least, I didn't see anything else that wasn't about the subject of an "apology."
> >
> > As applied to most "liberals," this statement is false. Most liberals see an apology as an empty gesture and couldn't care less. There are, of course, one or two exceptions, but that is going to be true of any broad claim. (Especially applied to liberals, who tend to be free thinkers and thus not easily bound or defined by dogma.)
> >
> ...


Really?  Then why are so many bills from the GOP-controlled house sitting on Harry Reid's desk?

You're not interested in solutions that work.  You're interested in solutions that get you votes.  Party before country, every time.


C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Conservatives adhere blindly to dogma  the proof of that can be found in the threads of this very forum: big government is bad, taxes are bad, liberals are bad.


As opposed to liberals saying "big government is good", "taxes are good", and "liberals are pure goodness"?

Please.


C_Clayton_Jones said:


> As for the OP, its mostly gibberish, ignorance, and idiocy.


Leftists have a remarkable capacity for self-delusion.


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## newpolitics (Mar 17, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 You brought the Chris rock thread here... you are obsessed. Here's a hint PC. Be yourself. Don't feel the need to act tough around guys. You come off as needlessly hard-edged without any rhyme or reason. I understand the pressures of living in a male-dominated society, but you are over-compensating. The same goes for CaliforniaGirl, she's just much better at talking shit than you. Just some objective observation to help you out in life, as I am willing to be this carries over into your personal life. mmmkay pumpkin?


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

newpolitics said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
> ...




NO, humiliating the shit out of you does not come across as needlessly hard-edged. Don't feel too bad, you may grow some new balls one day.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 17, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
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> 
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Read the book or watch the PBS special "Slavery by another name", study Jim Crow laws and how long they lasted, then get back to me with your "questions".


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## newpolitics (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


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who are you, and why are you biting at my heels? stop being an asshole.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


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conservatives just like for them to suffer period


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > The bigger issue is not whether we should "apologize" for slavery but have we learned from our racist past?
> ...



Republicans have already lost the black and gay vote FOREVER

Now they are working on losing the Hispanic and Muslim vote


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## Peach (Mar 17, 2012)

America is the greatest nation on earth

Great nations are capable of admitting their mistakes and not only slavery, but our treatment of blacks as a nation was a mistake

No reason we shouldn't own up to it. The key is not only admitting your mistakes but learning from them
****************************************************
Appropriate. Thank you RW.


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 17, 2012)

Peach said:


> America is the greatest nation on earth
> 
> Great nations are capable of admitting their mistakes and not only slavery, but our treatment of blacks as a nation was a mistake
> 
> ...


Those of the Liberal persuasion repeat same ad nauseum,

Perseveration is often indicia of psychological difficulty...


see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1284439/pdf/12858991.pdf


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

newpolitics said:


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Don't blame me that you are embarrassing yourself.


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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Your initial quote didn't mention political parties. Are you trying to change the subject because you can see the dead end to your BS comments?


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

Peach said:


> America is the greatest nation on earth
> 
> Great nations are capable of admitting their mistakes and not only slavery, but our treatment of blacks as a nation was a mistake
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> ...




What's all this "our" and "we" stuff?


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Peach said:
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That is how "we" speak of our country


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


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No, not at all

I was talking about Republicans the whole time......just didn't want to hurt your feelings


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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That would include black Americans, would it not? It would also include those whose ancestors had nothing to do with slavery, right?


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


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The "we" was the US, State and local governments as well as the courts who not only tolerated but enforced the despicable treatment of blacks right up till the 1960s


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## Rozman (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> percysunshine said:
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> > Liberals should apologize for being air heads. Several times a day.
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heh heh you spelled Stooupid wrong....
what a dumd ass !


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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Be careful swerving like that.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 17, 2012)

> All around us are examples where we have moved away from our racial animosity towards blacks and settled on new targets........Mexicans, gays and Muslims.



And there are a significant number who have not moved away from racial animosity toward blacks, theyve simply added Mexicans, gays, and Muslims to their list of hate. 



> This is true.
> Liberals in the late 50's and 60's thru federal housing and welfare have created multi-generational damage to the black community. Welfare was reformed (sort of) and many federal housing complexes have been closed (sort of). Even though these policies were enacted 60 years ago - it may very well be another 60 years before the damage from them are finally over.
> However, it doesn't appear that liberals have learned from their mistakes. WIth expanding on the unconstitutional and racist affirmative action as well as continuously lowering the bar for minorities to get into college - and then lowering the bar again where a student can go to school free of charge for up to 6 years and never earn a degree.
> 
> Your right, we haven't learned.



And yet another example of ignorance from the right. 

Affirmative action is Constitutional provided its tailored in such a way as to be comprehensive with regard to selection criteria, where race is not the sole deciding factor. Such a system developed and used by a business, government agency, or school is appropriate in the hiring entitys desire to achieve racial diversity. See: GRUTTER V. BOLLINGER


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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You either mean the specific people who held those positions during slavery, or you mean them as representatives of the people of the United States, which includes black Americans and those (many) whose ancestors had nothing to do with slavery, right? Which is it?

And when did the discussion turn from slavery to "despicable treatment"? You'd be hard pressed to find any group of people who haven't come in for "despicable treatment" at one point or another. Do you propose every American apologizing to every other American?


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 17, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
> ...



Wouldn't it be a more efficacious use of my time to find someone who might be able to answer questions....any questions?

You've probably heard this phrase so very many times: Thanks for the offer, but no thank you.


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## Unkotare (Mar 17, 2012)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > All around us are examples where we have moved away from our racial animosity towards blacks and settled on new targets........Mexicans, gays and Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> And there are a significant number who have not moved away from racial animosity toward blacks, theyve simply added Mexicans, gays, and Muslims to their list of hate.





And a far, far more significant number who bear no "animosity" based on the categories implied above but who are invariably accused of "hate" for said groups if they are opposed to illegal immigration, gay marriage, terrorism, or the policies of a particular politician who happens to be half black.


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
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> > > All around us are examples where we have moved away from our racial animosity towards blacks and settled on new targets........Mexicans, gays and Muslims.
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They have to find a way to convince themselves that they hold the keys to the kingdom, that they are somehow better than others...

....and the slander of Americans is never far from their lips.


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 17, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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Some black Republicans and/or conservatives....

1.	Amy Holmes
2.	Walter Williams
3.	Thomas Sowell
4.	Herman Cain
5.	Reihan Salam
6.	Allen West
7.	 J.C. Watts,
8.	 Condoleezza Rice, 
9.	Clarence Thomas
10.	Michael Steele
11.	Florida's Lieutenant Governor Jennifer Carroll  
12.	Shelby Steele,
13.	Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson
14.	 Ward Connerly
15.	Glenn Loury, 
16.	 Gary Franks,
17.	 Deroy Murdock,
18.	Robert Woodson
19.	Roosevelt Grier
20.	Marva Collins
21.	Joe Clark,
22.	Roy Innis
23.	Tony Brown, 
24.	Ken Blackwell
25.	Larry Elder
26.	Star Parker
27.	Armstrong Williams
28.	John McWhorter
29.	Don King
30.	James Earl Jones
31.	Karl Malone
32.	LL Cool J
33.	The Rock
34.	50 Cent
35.	Tim Scott
36.	Deneen Borelli 
37.	Lee Hawkins


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

Unkotare said:


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Our despicable treatment of blacks continued for a hundred years after the end of slavery. "We" as a nation are responsible for it. It is part of who the United States is. It was officially tolerated and enforced by our elected government. 

There are levels of despicable treatment endured by others. Native Americans come to mind.....and yes, they are due an apology to. An acknowledgment that the way our government treated them was wrong


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


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Wow, I am impressed......you managed to name every one. You left off Colin Powell, but I guess you guys kicked him out

However, I will not try to list the 95% of blacks who will never vote Republican


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## daveman (Mar 17, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


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Black conservatives?

They're not black enough.

Right, white USMB lefties?


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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Holy hell...you actually said something that makes sense TWICE in one thread!!
Once again - you are right here. Long term hand outs with little to no strings attached indeed turns people from poor to _dependent_ on that hand out. As history all over the world has shown - money/shelter etc. etc. given to someone without expected return will always lead to that person not being able to live without it.

You know winger....keep it up and you might earn some respect around here. Good posting.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

iamwhatiseem said:


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How true...

Making people suffer is the only way to get them out of poverty


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## Sallow (Mar 18, 2012)

iamwhatiseem said:


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Well it's been tried before. Like with the Tsars of Russia, the Aristocracy in France and in the Kingdoms of China.

How'd that turn out?


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## alan1 (Mar 18, 2012)

MikeK said:


> Big Black Dog said:
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> > I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country.  The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.
> ...



Have you folks ever heard of Liberia ?
Currently about 85% of the population lives below the international poverty line.


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

daveman said:


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I believe the phrase au currant is 'not authentically black'....

....or some relationship-term beginning with 'uncle' or 'aunt'...


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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1. "Our despicable treatment of blacks..."
Speaking for *yourself,* I'm sure...


2. How about you look deeply into the matter....I'm certain you'll reach the conclusion that the hand-wringing and hugging of our black neighbors is simply *a matter of self-preservation by the Democrat-Liberal-Left-progressives*, for the following reason:

 "...what would happen if a smaller percentage of blacks turned out:

- At 90 percent black turn-out, Wisconsin&#8217;s 10 electoral votes slide into the GOP column.

- At 75 percent black turn-out, Pennsylvania&#8217;s 21 electoral votes go Republican.

- At 70 percent Michigan&#8217;s 17 electoral votes turn from blue to red.

- At 50 percent the GOP collects Delawre&#8217;s three electoral votes.

I don&#8217;t know what a realistic number to project is for the effects of angry black apathy, but I&#8217;ll stop at 50 percent. It may be that going as low as 75 percent is unrealistic. Most likely it&#8217;s impossible to say. (And this doesn&#8217;t take into account things like congressional districts where black voters make the margin of difference.)"
Do Democrats need the black vote? | RobertEmmet Democrats need the black vote? | RobertEmmet


But what exactly would that mean? *In how many states do black voters make the difference?* I ran some rough numbers over at Robert Emmet -- check them out. Depending on how much of a drop-off you assume, *it could cost the Democrats* 10 to 76 electoral votes.
Robert Schlesinger: The Democrats and the Black Vote


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


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Letting daveman be your straight man now.....

What ever happened to Political Chic the rightwing intellectual?


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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Just watch out, wingy....I dont have a license to kill, but I do have a learners permit.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


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And there spells the problem with a liberal-progressive mind.
You only think in absolutes.
If you have a problem with the poor getting free stuff - then you hate poor people and want them to die.
For Christ sake - look at Sallow's comment - same thing. I disagree - and I am to be compared to the Russian Czars, Mao and French aristocracy.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

iamwhatiseem said:


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Sallows comment relates to the callous treatment of the poor and it's consequences

There is no example in history where the poor are better off by removing assistance.


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> I believe the phrase au currant is 'not authentically black'....
> 
> ....or some relationship-term beginning with 'uncle' or 'aunt'...


Well, since I'm not a white liberal, I don't feel qualified to speak for the black community.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


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Sour grapes by the Republicans..

They consciously drove away the black vote to court the southern extremist vote. It worked in turning the Southern states red, but permanently lost them the black vote


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> Letting daveman be your straight man now.....
> 
> What ever happened to Political Chic the rightwing intellectual?


You really hate it when leftwing bullshit is exposed, don't you?

Boy, are YOU in the wrong place.


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



1. "Stand erect or be made to stand erect."
attributed to Marcus Aurelius 


2. You sure underestimate the human spirit...
....another hallmark of the Left.


3.	For the Left, government is not merely one of the ways in which humanity may order its affairs, (the others being religion and the free market), but it is the only way.

a.	Government is the religion of the Left, and its primary motive is to expand equality. For that reason it must be expanded, and empowered to address any and all aspects of life.

b.	Such was the view of  FDR.  And, based on this view, he expanded a bad economic downturn into one of the worst depressions in history.

4.	FDR not only saddled the nation with social programs, but with the deeper, unconscious legacy of belief in social programs- irrespective of their effectiveness. The rule became: If anything called a social program fails, expand it!

a.	This is the meaning of social justice: action by the state in the name of justice, which means complete protection and immunity from review.
Mamet, Op.Cit. chapter 18.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



And how many of them voted for Barack Obama?


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Don't pretend, just to make a point...you know the Democrat plan propounded by LBJ....


1.	Prior to 1957, Johnson had never supported civil rights legislation- any civil rights legislation. In the Senate and House alike, his record was an unbroken one of votes against every civil rights bill that had ever come to a vote: against voting rights bills; against bills that would have struck at job discrimination and at segregation in other areas of American life; even against bills that would have protected blacks from lynching. Robert A. Caro,  Master of the Senate: The Years of Lyndon Johnson, vol.3, p. xv . He would use progressives economics in this strategy. 

2.	 LBJ fit the progressive mold perfectly, and he wanted to continue FDRs advances toward a cradle-to-grave European style government. The theater of endeavor was not as much economic equality, but racial, ... Historical Tables | The White House). 

a.	Outside of the obvious beneficiaries of his policies, low income families and African-Americans, he knew how to entice the support of powerful forces and special interest groups. For example, his affordable housing programs found natural allies in builders, bankers and real estate agents. 

b.	*His policies, though, were more polemics than philanthropies. His racial attitudes* are suggested by his biographer, Robert Dallek, who quotes him defending the Supreme Court appointment of the very well-known Thurgood Marshall, rather than a black judge less identified with the civil rights cause, by saying to a staff member, "Son, when I appoint a ****** to the court, I want everyone to know he's a ******."   On the Way With L.B.J. - NYTimes.com


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > iamwhatiseem said:
> ...


Just symptomatic of the left's black-and-white binary thinking.  You know, what they accuse the right of.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



HERMAN CAIN: OBAMA HAS NEVER BEEN A PART OF THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA.

Herman Cain: Obama Has

Really?


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



There were a number who were, understandably, proud of Obama for the same reason you are, Faulty.


It will be interesting to see if he gets the same percent of the black vote this time, having proven to be an embarrassment to blacks, Democrats, Liberals, and everyone else.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



I'm glad Obama won, because the first president my 5 year old grandson ever recognized and is able to name is a black man. You people have absolutely no clue what that means to the black community.

He will get an even larger number of black voters and the percentage will be 98%, once again. He will also get a larger percentage of Latino votes and get over 85% of their vote.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



The democrats made a conscious trade off. 

Up until the 60s, they made a deal with the devil in accommodating racist southern democrats in exchange for a larger Democrat constituency. That constituency enabled the Democrats to control Congress for 40 years. 

LBJ was raised in 1920s racist Texas. Calling blacks ******* came with the territory. He was also a shrewd politician. LBJ went against his racist southern roots to steamroll civil rights legislation through Congress

It ended up costing Democrats their once solid south, which the Republicans quickly pounced on


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Do you really think blacks are embarrassed by President Obama?

You are usually better than this blatant regurgitation of rightwing propaganda


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## alan1 (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> I'm glad Obama won, because the first president my 5 year old grandson ever recognized and is able to name is a black man. You people have absolutely no clue what that means to the black community.
> 
> He will get an even larger number of black voters and the percentage will be 98%, once again. He will also get a larger percentage of Latino votes and get over 85% of their vote.



Some of us really don't care that he is half-white (not black),  We don't choose presidents based upon the color of their skin nor choose to admire or not admire somebody based upon the melanin content in their skin.
It sounds as if you would think differently about him if he were an albino.


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> Do you really think blacks are embarrassed by President Obama?


Dunno.  What do you, a white liberal, dictate as the official position of Black America?


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...



Why don't you ask some of the folks on that list....


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

alan1 said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad Obama won, because the first president my 5 year old grandson ever recognized and is able to name is a black man. You people have absolutely no clue what that means to the black community.
> ...


Looks like Dr. King's dream is nowhere near fruition.  It keeps getting sabotaged by his fellow blacks.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

alan1 said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad Obama won, because the first president my 5 year old grandson ever recognized and is able to name is a black man. You people have absolutely no clue what that means to the black community.
> ...



And some of us weren't raised as second class citizens


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

alan1 said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad Obama won, because the first president my 5 year old grandson ever recognized and is able to name is a black man. You people have absolutely no clue what that means to the black community.
> ...



I have a first cousin who is Albino and she is still black.
Study your topic.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

daveman said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...



Fuck Dr. King's dream. How'd that work for him?


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



OK, I will...

1.	Amy Holmes
2.	Walter Williams
3.	Thomas Sowell
4.	Herman Cain
5.	Reihan Salam
6.	Allen West
7.	 J.C. Watts,
8.	 Condoleezza Rice, 
9.	Clarence Thomas
10.	Michael Steele
11.	Florida's Lieutenant Governor Jennifer Carroll 
12.	Shelby Steele,
13.	Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson
14.	 Ward Connerly
15.	Glenn Loury, 
16.	 Gary Franks,
17.	 Deroy Murdock,
18.	Robert Woodson
19.	Roosevelt Grier
20.	Marva Collins
21.	Joe Clark,
22.	Roy Innis
23.	Tony Brown, 
24.	Ken Blackwell
25.	Larry Elder
26.	Star Parker
27.	Armstrong Williams
28.	John McWhorter
29.	Don King
30.	James Earl Jones
31.	Karl Malone
32.	LL Cool J
33.	The Rock
34.	50 Cent
35.	Tim Scott
36.	Deneen Borelli 
37.	Lee Hawkins

Are any of you embarrassed by President Obama?

If you are, reply in this thread


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## alan1 (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...



How Mr Obama's family, Salt Jones' family or your family raised their children is beyond my control.
You didn't address my point, but I addressed your pointless.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

daveman said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...



I guess you didn't take to the color-bind society. "his fellow blacks"?


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



That was like a joke...only different?

In the interests of safety, one should avoid your posts if one is operating heavy machinery, or driving on the highway.


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## alan1 (Mar 18, 2012)

1. Amy Holmes
2. Walter Williams
3. Thomas Sowell
4. Herman Cain
5. Reihan Salam
6. Allen West
7. J.C. Watts,
8. Condoleezza Rice,
9. Clarence Thomas
10. Michael Steele
11. Florida's Lieutenant Governor Jennifer Carroll
12. Shelby Steele,
13. Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson
14. Ward Connerly
15. Glenn Loury,
16. Gary Franks,
17. Deroy Murdock,
18. Robert Woodson
19. Roosevelt Grier
20. Marva Collins
21. Joe Clark,
22. Roy Innis
23. Tony Brown,
24. Ken Blackwell
25. Larry Elder
26. Star Parker
27. Armstrong Williams
28. John McWhorter
29. Don King
30. James Earl Jones
31. Karl Malone
32. LL Cool J
33. The Rock
34. 50 Cent
35. Tim Scott
36. Deneen Borelli
37. Lee Hawkins

Are any of you happy to have President Obama?

If you are, reply in this thread.

See how easy it is.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

alan1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...



I was raised to crush anyone that stood in my way of achieving my goals and I raised my kids that way. 

Set your goals, work for your goals, rely on yourself and don't let anyone tell you can't achieve what you set your mind to.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

alan1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...



Your point is easy to make when you were raised in a society that allowed you to go to any school that you wanted, allowed you to stay at any hotel or eat at any restaurant. It is easy for you when you never were told that you were dirty or not worthy of socializing with the white upper class

Those who were raised in such an environment can rightfully be proud that someone of their race was elected President. For you to call them racist for being proud shows how callous you really are


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Overall, sounds a lot more conservative than liberal...
...stop being blinded by skin color, Faulty.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



I've noticed nobody has replied yet.


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Pu-leeeeeezze!
I don't know if I can stomach another of your "Look what an exceptional person I am" posts.

For the truth, see post #57.


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Ill bet you havent been this excited since your first Amway meeting.


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## alan1 (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I didn't call anybody racist,  Please cease and desist from claiming that lie.

I wasn't allowed to attend any school I wanted to, I had to attend the public schools in my neighborhood.  We were too poor to stay in hotels or eat at restaurants when I was growing up.


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## alan1 (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I was raised to work collaboratively with others to achieve my goals, not to crush them, yet at the same time, to rely upon myself.  I raised my children the same way.  so far, they are happy and successful.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...



No, it sounds like being raised by black liberal, lifelong NAACP, gun owning, segregated school attending descendants of slaves. I would never dishonor my parents or any of my ancestors by voting for a conservative. 

P.S. I voted for Micheal Steele, but he's not conservative.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

alan1 said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...



As are my kid's.

P.S. Fuck others. When push comes to shove, your own actions determine your fate.


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...


He's infinitely more respected than you are.  He's secured a place in history.

You will live on in a Google cache only.  You're one server farm power failure away from eternal anonymity.


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...


Dr. King fought for civil rights for black Americans.  You shit on his accomplishments.

I see people as people.  You see only skin color.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

alan1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...



And yet, with one broad brush you are able to brush aside three hundred years of racist history and berate someone who is proud that someone of their race was finally elected President


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

daveman said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Barack Obama is "infinitely more respected than me.  He's secured a place in history", does that make him great?

Nah, I have kids and grandkids. I will live until the end of time.


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## Salt Jones (Mar 18, 2012)

daveman said:


> Salt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



I shit on a false belief in a color-blind society, as does every single black civil rights activist who worked with Dr. King, Lowery, Abernathy, Shuttlesworth, Lewis, etc.


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...


I wouldn't put him in the same category as Dr. King, but Obama's definitely more respected than you are.


Salt Jones said:


> Nah, I have kids and grandkids. I will live until the end of time.


Eventually, the human race will be sufficiently homogenized that racism will be impossible.  I  know that thought horrifies racists like you.

So, yes, your legacy will die.


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## daveman (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...


Oh, you mean all the ones who have gotten rich and powerful off race-baiting?

They're shitting on Dr. King's legacy, too.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...



You know I don't read your posts when you copy and paste off of rightwing propaganda sites. If you want to make a point, make it yourself


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## Foxfyre (Mar 18, 2012)

Slavery was practiced in the original Spanish colonies in North America dating back to 1560.  It was a legal institution on the American continents dating more than a century before 1776.  In the USA it ended 147 years ago when the 13th Amendment was ratified though most of the slaves had already been freed for years prior to that date.  How far back does history have to go before those who had ?nothing to do with it are no longer expected to apologize for it or pay for it today?  And who do we apologize to?   (See the excerpt quoted below.)

These days racism is big business both for black leaders and for black and white politicians.  It is right at the top of the list of the propaganda that keeps the money and votes flowing to those who capitalize on keeping it alive.  Otherwise we would be a mostly color blind nation by now and the poorer black people among us would be infinitely better off.

Walter Williams has long acknowledged that as unconscionable, horrible, and unjustifiable slavery is wherever it exists, he himself has very much benefitted because somebody dragged his multi-great grandfather and/or grandmother over here at some point.  Because that happened, he was born a free man in a country that has provided unlimited opportunity to him.  He has been able to enjoy a pleasant life, earn a PhD, earn a living, all of which likely would not have been the case if all his ancesters had been left in Africa.  And this is a testimony from a man who grew up under segregation.

And as for reparations due any black person on the continent due to slavery, he considers that absurd.

From an essay he wrote back when that was still being pushed in Congress in July, 2000:



> First off, let me say that I agree with reparations advocates that slavery was a horrible, despicable violation of basic human rights. I'd also agree that were it possible slave owners should make reparations to those whom they enslaved. The problem, of course, is both slaves as well as their owners are all dead. Thus, punishing perpetrators and compensating victims is out of the hands of the living. Reparations advocates, however, want today's blacks to be compensated for the suffering of our ancestors.
> 
> If we acknowledge that government has no resources of its very own, and that to give one American a dollar government must first confiscate it from some other American, we might ask what moral principle justifies forcing a white of today to pay a black of today for what a white of yesteryear did to a black of yesteryear? We might also recognize that a large percentage of today's Americans, be they of European, Asian, African or Latin ancestry, don't even go back three or four generations. Are they to be held accountable and taxed for slavery and why?
> 
> ...


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



1. You do read my posts.

2. You CLAIM you don't read 'em, 'cause they're dispositive, and you have no answers to 'em...


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...



Sometimes one is trapped in a web of their own creation....

...you sound like you have the potential to grow: we'll wait for you.


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



No, actually they tend to be tedious and have proven to be not worth the effort


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## Unkotare (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> I'm glad Obama won, because the first president my 5 year old grandson ever recognized and is able to name is a black man. .





??????????????????


He never saw a picture of Washington or Lincoln? 


??????????????????


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## Unkotare (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...




You're a fucking scumbag. Even Malcolm got the idea eventually.


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## Unkotare (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> I was raised to crush anyone that stood in my way of achieving my goals.






Good, you'll get what you really deserve sooner or later that way. Don't bitch about it when it happens, douchebag.


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## logical4u (Mar 18, 2012)

MikeK said:


> Big Black Dog said:
> 
> 
> > I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country.  The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.
> ...



Some slaves did return to Africa, Liberia....  Others were offered or given "reparations" of 40 acres and a mule.  Many turned it down because it was not "prime" land (they wanted the plantation lands).


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## Unkotare (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> P.S. Fuck others. When push comes to shove, your own actions determine your fate.



If you were under the impression that declaring such an attitude would hide your cowardice, you were mistaken.


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## logical4u (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> The bigger issue is not whether we should "apologize" for slavery but have we learned from our racist past?
> 
> All around us are examples where we have moved away from our racial animosity towards blacks and settled on new targets........Mexicans, gays and Muslims



No, we have not learned to judge people by character.  We uphold the most repulsive, immoral people (Clinton, Micheal Vick, Charlie Sheen, etc) and try to humiliate the people that are "trying" to live morally (Christians); it is perfectly acceptable to mock and humiliate those that believe in morals.  Yet the immoral and corrupt are held up as heroes; it is just sad.


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## logical4u (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Wow!  Talk about stereotyping!  Are you saying that blacks and gays are not intelligent enough to see the democrats are giving them "fun island" (they all end up a bunch of asses shipped off to the mines)?  Or are you saying that blacks and gays can't see that equality under the law is "fair", and that gov't selective enforcement of the law (see Eric Holder's work) is "unfair"?


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2012)

logical4u said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



No, actually blacks and gays  are intelligent enough to see that the republicans are using them as scapegoats to appeal to the extremist wing of the conservative movement.


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## logical4u (Mar 18, 2012)

Salt Jones said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Salt Jones said:
> ...



Ahhh!  The Liberal's golden rule!


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## logical4u (Mar 18, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Links, evidence?


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2012)

daveman said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Not "binary" at all. All through history you have examples of wealth skewing upwards and the results. Societies that work to accomodate the wealthy, generally have bad outcomes.


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## rightwinger (Mar 19, 2012)

logical4u said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > logical4u said:
> ...



Evidence?

How about that 95% of blacks and 100% of gays don't vote Republican


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 19, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice source, an iconoclast and curmudgeon offers that which you and others on the right want to hear.  Having the the ability to write an "ain't it awful" book isn't very difficult; very few are capable of putting rational solutions to problems in print - it's so much easier to emote.  Isn't it PC?


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## PoliticalChic (Mar 19, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
> ...



1. David Mamet... offers that which you and others on the Left don't want to hear.

And the reason....if he were not correct, and his questions pointedly dispositive, you wouldn't be as upset.

True?

2. "Having the the ability to write an "ain't it awful" book isn't very difficult;..."
So...which ones have you written?

I know you are a reader: pick up the book; as is true of so many on the Right (Coulter) it is insightful, well written, humorous, ....and veracious.

Double dog dare ya.'


----------



## MuadDib (May 23, 2012)

Big Black Dog said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country.  The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.



That was Lincoln's plan for Reconsctruction. He belonged to the American Colonization Society.


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## regent (May 23, 2012)

When a nation apologizes it is not the people of the day apologizing for their actions, it is the government apologizing for a nation's past action. Perhaps the biggest lesson, not usually thought of, is are we doing something today that will be seen as a bad act in the future, and the nation, of the future, will have to apologize for us? One of the problems of a democracy is that people's attitudes change slowly. Many of the founding period believed slavery was wrong but it took time for enough people to come to that same conclusion. What are we doing today that we may have to apologize for tomorrow, perhaps nothing, perhaps plenty?


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.

A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors


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## Foxfyre (May 23, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.
> 
> A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors



Yeah they are.  It hasn't been that long ago that restitution was seen in monetary terms.  But regardless, every debate re race, especially when the 'disadvantaged' or 'victim' motifs start showing up, always returns to the issue of slavery.  Because many black people descend from slaves, despite slavery ending almost 150 years ago, and/or experienced or descended from people who experienced segregation and other prejudicial issues, the drumbeat of victimization continues.  And we owe them for that.

In short most black people are portrayed as too damaged to be expected to take full advantage of the American dream without help.   Unfortunately, that translates into most black people being 'inferior' and incapable of making it without "Whitey's" help.

And I see again and again that this may be the most cruel phenomena we have imposed on black people yet.


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## Artevelde (May 23, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.
> 
> A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors



Few things are so a-historical and misguided as all these apologies for so-called historical crimes.


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.
> ...



Who specifically is asking for restitution?

Which bills have been presented in Congress addressing restitution? Can you show where debates about race today have brought up slavery?

Rightwing urban legends


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## Foxfyre (May 23, 2012)

rightwinger said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
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It doesn't have to be broken down into personalities.  And you can look at this thread alone--plus any others dealing with racism--to see the issue of slavery inserted into it frequently.  Try to think outside the box here instead of through ideologically colored glasses or with blinders on to the larger issues.

The point is, that to assume that black people are still disadvantaged and/or damaged because of slavery and discrimination is to relegate black people to second class status and inferior to everybody else.  To assume that a black person cannot be expected to make it without help from the rest of society, in very material ways, is to assume that such black person is less capable than other people in society.

Can you focus on that concept?  Dispute it if you can.


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## Katzndogz (May 23, 2012)

Arguments against historical slavery are silly nonsense.  As if the Brits can demand that Italy pay for the dominion of Rome over Londinium.   As if it would make sense that Paul McCartney paint himself blue and protest the enslavement of the Britons.


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

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If you look at our social programs, very few are targeted to blacks and none are provided as a restitution for slavery. Social programs are targeted towards lower economic classes. Blacks may make up a large percentage of these classes but whites, hispanics and even asians benefit from these programs

Society does not help someone because they are black....they help them because they need help


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## Foxfyre (May 23, 2012)

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And yet how many times have you on the left accused the GOP or conservatives of racism because we do NOT want to target black people for help any more than any other group?  What is the purpose of pushing Affirmative Action if not specifically for the benefit of black people with a weak side emphasis on woman?   Do you see anybody getting excited about Hispanics or Italians or Irishmen or Asians being out of work?   But the media focuses on black unemployment.  Black poverty.  Black attrition in the schools.  And the necessity for sufficient slots in all areas of commerce and industry to be served for black people.

But let anybody focus in any comprehensive way on the breakdown of the black family, the unconscionable high levels of black on black crime, black teen pregnancy, or attitudes deemed contrary to black success among black people, or protests against black activism, or even criticism of a President who happens to be black, and the cries of racism are immediate and loud.  We are told that black people can't be held accountable for such things.  They are handicapped.  They descended from slaves.

The phenomenon is one of the cruelest and most insidious forms of racism that exists and does immeasurable harm to black people.


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

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Nobody is targeting blacks for help. What happens is that programs that cut aid to education, childcare, jobs programs.....all hurt blacks disproportionately.

Affirmative action was a necessary follow up to civil rights legislation. Guess what? It worked. We have a much higher representation of blacks, women, hispanics and other groups than we would have gotten if the system were left alone


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## Foxfyre (May 23, 2012)

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So WHY does cutting federal spending for various programs hurt blacks disproportionately?  Don't you think that is a question worth exploring?

I agree, and have long said, that Affirmative Action was necessary to bring down barriors in the wake of desegregation.   Culturally ingrained prejudices were strong and doors were closed to black people purely because they were black or whatever.   That war was won within a decade, however, and those who promote true racial equality, such as myself, know that it was then time to stop fighting it.  To continue fighting it promotes racial consciousness rather than help eliminate it.  We now have an Equal Rights Amendment that provides remedy for those who are illegally discriminated against.  Affirmative Action should be put on the high shelf and removed from the American scene so that people can be seen as capable people who merited their position instead of achieving it artificially through legislation.


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

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Because blacks are disproportionately poor


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## PoliticalChic (May 23, 2012)

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1.	Every Leftist is, essentially, a Marxisteven though most eschew the title since the fall of the Soviet Union. Even so, Left-wing ideas are predicated on Marxs materialist view. Philosophically, the term implies that only material things are real. 

a.	While the Judeo-Christian society labels actions as good or evil, due to morality and/or self-control, the Left sees the results as due to material inequality, i.e., violent crime due to poverty.

b.	The Left has been far more interested in fighting material inequality than tyranny, which is why Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, etc., tend to have the support of Leftists around the world.

c.	The Left is less interested in creating wealth than in distributing it.


2. So, for the Left, assuaging the ills of slavery is about economic equality, and the fact that they subscribe to an America made up of classes based on skin color is hardly a problem.


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

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Sorry

Has nothing to do with the topic of discussion. 

But at least you didn't cut and paste


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## Foxfyre (May 23, 2012)

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And I go back to a previous post recounting how Thomas Sowell, Starr Parker, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele, and many others have done exhaustive research on the dynamics of the black community and have exhaustively written their results.  Despite rampant racism and segregation, black people were the most rapidly advancing demographic economically UNTIL the Great Society and the resulting "nanny state'.

So isn't it at least worth taking a look at that the 'nanny state', its own form of racism, as having been a significant factor in creating a black demographic that is disproportionately poor?  And wouldn't the compassionate thing be to condemn that form of racism that encourages people to be disproportionately poor?


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## PoliticalChic (May 23, 2012)

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Of course it does...but I understand both your pretense and your sensitivity to the analysis.


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

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I fail to see the establishment of cause and effect on social programs and the current state of the black community. I think the works of Sowell, Parker et al are intended to satisfy the Conservative think tanks that feed them

Essentially, how do Great Society programs like Jobs programs, healthcare and educational support make things worse for poor people?

I grow tired of the Conservative meme of you have to force people to suffer in order for them to "pick themselves up by their bootstraps" and get a job. 

Right now our problem is the lack of well paying jobs to allow people to rise from poverty. Cutting the social safety net will not help that happen any sooner


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

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I get better analysis out of Stephanie, Willow and Mr. Nick

Your attempts at baiting are pathetic. I have however, found your button of insecurity about how your educational prowness is perceived. Not too impressive


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## Foxfyre (May 23, 2012)

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The fact that you don't want to accept the evidence from PhD economists and historians who have done exhaustive research on the subject, is not a good reason for me to dismiss the evidence that they present and have backed up with an enormous amount of data furnished from other than those 'think tanks' you seem to hold in such high contempt.  Nor did those think tanks fund any of the research, nor do they benefit from the sales of the books that have been produced.  Anyway, George Mason University (Walter Williams) is hardly a think tank.  Nor do I believe that Starr Parker or Shelby Steele are affiliated with any particular group.

Further having spent a fair amount of my adult life working directly with poor families, I have witnessed absolutely nothing that even causes me to question the data that those learned people have produced.

Sometimes stepping outside the assigned talking points and prescribed ideological mindset can do wonders to open one's eyes and one's mind.   So much of the political rhetoric is pure myth.


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## PoliticalChic (May 23, 2012)

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Holy shishkebob!

You've found my weakness??!!


So...my 'button of insecurity,' it turns out...is instructing you in areas where your self-analysis has failed????


Id tell you to go to hell, but I work there and I dont want to see you every day.


And keep your hands off my button!


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## rightwinger (May 23, 2012)

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Look

Just because Mommy and Daddy wasted their money on your education is no reason to take it out on the rest of us

Hundred thousand dollars spent to teach you to cut and paste from rightwing blogs. I can get that from Mr. Nick


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## Sky Dancer (May 24, 2012)

PoliticalChic said:


> Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....
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What would be fair in regard to accepting the dark chapter of our shared history, the institution of slavery?

Should we sweep it under the rug?  Refuse to discuss it?

How about the Holocaust?  Should we tell Jews to "just get over it"?  How long is the world affected by evil acts on a grand scale?

A long time.  That's my answer.

We fortunately have had a civil rights movement in our country and we have legislated equality into our laws.  Does that mean we are free of racism?  No.  We still have work to do.

It takes a longgg time to "get over" some of these extremely evil events in human history.

I salute you in raising some questions to consider about slavery and racism.

Some say slavery still exists in prisons, and since prisons are majority people of color that the institution of slavery still lingers.

I'm not sure I agree with that notion, but I do acknowledge there are flaws in our justice system.

Just consider these ramblings food for thought.

Thanks for the thread, PC.


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## PoliticalChic (May 24, 2012)

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"....cut and paste from rightwing blogs."


Well, since this is the zillionth time you've written/complained in the same vein, yet you hungrily devour each and every one of my threads and posts....one would be led to believe that there is something else behind your posts....

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."


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