# The Palestinian Emirates "Solution"



## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating.  I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo.  The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation".  This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties.  A more local governance might be more effective.  There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being.  This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this.  Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families.  Their right to remain where they are* must be preserved*.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

This is the summary from the link:

EIGHTEEN POINT EXECUTIVE SUMMARY



1/ The only true loyalty of the Middle Eastern Arabs is to family, clan and tribe and the local sheikhs who are their only true leaders.


2/ There is little trust that currently exists between people of the different tribes in the Arab Palestinian cities of Judea, Samaria and Gaza.


3/ Any PLO/PA led government of a Palestinian state would most likely become another corrupt and failed Arab state just like Syria, Sudan and Libya.



4/ If a Palestinian state would be established then Hamas would soon seize control in Judea & Samaria (the "West Bank") from the weak and corrupt PLO/PA/Fatah leading to a battle between Hamas and the Islamic State for control of the Levant, the land bridge between Turkey and Egypt.


5/ Israel would be faced on two borders by Hamas whose Charter openly calls for the destruction of the Jewish Homeland and the killing of Jews worldwide.



6/ The PLO/PA/Fatah and Hamas are not reliable negotiating partners for peace.


7/ The Two State Solution was already achieved in 2007 when Hamas established its state in the Gaza strip.


8/ Israel should take the lead to find a workable solution in light of the biased November 2012 and December 2016 UN votes which did not confer actual statehood to the Palestinians.


9/ As tribal leaders, the individual sheikhs may want their independence from the PLO/PA or the openly hostile terror groups to chart their own destiny of peace and prosperity.



10/ Israel should recognize the development of independent city-states, a/k/a emirates, in seven cities of Judea & Samaria, which would likely occur over a period of a few months.


11/ Each of the seven city-states in Judea & Samaria will be based socially on the local group of clans. Altogether there would be emirates in the seven non-contiguous emirates in the cities of Jenin, Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Tul-Karm, Kalkilya, and the Arab part of Hebron. This is in addition to the emirate already established in the Hamas-led Gaza strip.


12/ The Arab Palestinians living in the seven largest cities in Judea & Samaria would become citizens of those city-states. The remaining Arab Palestinians living in the rural areas could remain in place with citizenship to be determined in the future, or migrate to one of the city-states or another country. Israel might offer its citizenship to villagers who agree to be peaceful Israeli citizens.



13/ The Palestinian refugee problem can only be only solved in the Muslim Arab states, not in the Jewish State of Israel.



14/ As these independent Arab Palestinian emirates develop, they may choose to form a beneficial alliance together to increase security, economic development and other aspects of common interest.



15/ The sheikhs would view the more powerful Israel as invincible and establish a renewable temporary peace in order to focus on eliminating the terrorist and jihadist elements within the secure borders of their city-states.



16/ Israel would absorb and control the rural areas of Judea & Samaria to enhance security and development for the region.


17/ The PLO/PA leadership will eventually disappear from Judea & Samaria once the emirate movement takes root.



18/ Since being liberated in 1967 after a 19-year Jordanian occupation, Jerusalem will remain as the undivided capital of the Jewish nation which welcomes peaceful visitors of all faiths from all over the world to come and pray at their holy sites.


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## saveliberty (Apr 15, 2018)

I think it would end up like urban gangs in a big city.  All you can really do is help everyone be invested in the community they live in.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 15, 2018)

This sounds like a bantustan solution.


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## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> This sounds like a bantustan solution.



Only if all Palestinians were forced to live there - and that I would disagree with.


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## fncceo (Apr 15, 2018)

I like it ... but Hamas and PLO will never voluntarily agree to give up the control they have over their local populations.  If the sheiks were to create militias to fight the PLO in the West Bank, the situation will quickly degenerate into a Beirut scenario with Israel just trying to contain the spillover of violence into their own territory.

No Jews in the West Bank would be safe from the resulting carnage.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Where else would they be allowed to live. Israel has been pushing Palestinians into bantustans for a long time.


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## saveliberty (Apr 15, 2018)

Pay them to relocate to Detroit.


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## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Did you read the link?


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## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

fncceo said:


> I like it ... but Hamas and PLO will never voluntarily agree to give up the control they have over their local populations.  If the sheiks were to create militias to fight the PLO in the West Bank, the situation will quickly degenerate into a Beirut scenario with Israel just trying to contain the spillover of violence into their own territory.
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> No Jews in the West Bank would be safe from the resulting carnage.



Could the PLO effectively fight local control - especially if democratically elected?  Neither PLO nor Hamas are particularly popular among the Palestinians, there just isn't a whole lot of choice.


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## fncceo (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Both Hamas and the PLO are pretty effective at one thing ... eliminating the competition.  Anyone who they deem a threat to their control is immediately accused of being a 'Zionist Sympathizer' and publicly shot to send a message.

Not too many local chieftains or sheiks are going to stand against them.


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## Sixties Fan (Apr 15, 2018)

fncceo said:


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This is exactly what happened 100 years ago.

Some clans wanted to live in peace with the Jews in a new Jewish State, side by side with Arab States, and  the Husseini clan saw to it that many were killed or made to run off.

Husseini, to Arafat (same clan ).  And it goes on .


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## Hollie (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
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That was a really interesting find and suggests some new ideas. I think ultimately, the bloated UNRWA organization would need to be removed from implementation of the Emirates solution. The competing factions of the PA/ PLO and Hamas have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo of receiving that lucrative endowment with virtually no accountability. The “prize” of control over billions of dollars channeled through UNRWA would need to be removed as an excuse for the many emirates to devolve into little more than warring tribes, each looking to stand on the necks of the other as an advantage to secure foreign donations.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


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I have. It can't work. It would be population centers (bantustans) cut off from the resources and distribution networks required to have a functioning economy. It would be similar to what we have now where the only "economy" is foreign aid.

 This is what worked before and is what works in every country. Each city is the center of a support network.


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## Ropey (Apr 15, 2018)

Jordan.

That will be the Palestinian state. The rule will be by the GCC.


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## Hollie (Apr 15, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire is not a viable solution.


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## Pete7469 (Apr 15, 2018)

How about this "solution".

Muslims shut the fuck up and act like human fucking beings. Live peacefully in Israeli territory, and obey their fucking laws, as they are more than willing to allow. 

Otherwise get the fuck out.

It's Israeli land. Muslims lost the wars they started so shut the fuck up and "coexist" with people who are busy creating shit but willing to share the space with you if you don't decide to blow yourself up on a fucking bus full of people.

Pretty goddamned simple.


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## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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The City State idea HAS worked though - it worked in Italy.


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## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

Ropey said:


> Jordan.
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> That will be the Palestinian state. The rule will be by the GCC.



Would then forceably remove the Palestinians to Jordan?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Links?


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## Ropey (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Arabs will be in charge of the entire 'solution'. They want no idea of a greater Israel so they have allied with Israel.  Just watch.  Syria is already over. The GCC is far more than anyone had known.  Research it.  Look to twitter and the Arab posters.  It's not hard to see. Israel is not in charge of anything. Neither is the US although Trump is providing strong Arial and kinetic bombardment for the GCC. 

Who do you think is fighting down there?  I mean, other than the Hezbollah and Iranian losses?  

Two weeks ago the US took out a Russian Mercinary attack. They came in with kinetics and killed 200+ Russians who were taken back to Russia in bodybags.

The fight is pretty much over already and it's the Arabs who have won, not the US, although they will profit and so will the Jews as well as the Palestinians who will have an interconnected country which should have been the case before the first partitioning to Jordan. 

This is not a Jewish game.  This is a GCC game.


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## Ropey (Apr 15, 2018)

mesho

Remember this. This comes from the wisdom of an old Jew.

Arabs hate the idea of killing their own as much as Jews hate it.  The Ayatollah was the one who said the deaths of the believers were nothing to the glory of allah and if millions had to die, then so be it. 

Arabs?  Not so much. They have to be driven to war. Even then, it's fast and done. No games, no leaks.


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## Coyote (Apr 15, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Rennaiscence history.


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## Ropey (Apr 15, 2018)

This leftist game of using children? It was transferred to the Palestinians and al-Qaida extremists...etc.

It's not an Arab thing.  Not at all.   They will end this. They have been stewing a long time.

Decades in fact. I never knew how long they had been  planning a GCC military and man is it huge.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


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A city cannot stand on its own. It needs food, building materials, raw materials for manufacturing, markets for products. It has to somehow be connected to a larger distribution network.


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## toomuchtime_ (Apr 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
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Dr. Kedar has too much time on his hands.  What would this be a solution to?


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## william the wie (Apr 15, 2018)

Sounds good but even if it works implementation depends on effective elimination of Hamas and the PLO


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## Ropey (Apr 15, 2018)




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## Ropey (Apr 15, 2018)

Hezbollah Shia -- Lebanon.

Those are the secondary targets.  If they don't demilitarize and give the military power back to the Lebanese army ... they won't even have a political presence.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> This sounds like a bantustan solution.



Weren't bantustans based on skin color?
This is not it...well only if You think that an Israeli passport suddenly changes ones skin and race.


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## Linkiloo (Apr 16, 2018)

Try to get the Arabs to agree on anything.....


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

saveliberty said:


> I think it would end up like urban gangs in a big city.  All you can really do is help everyone be invested in the community they live in.



Usually there's one dominant tribe in each emirate.
Those were already set naturally and dominate their life on the ground today, so why should anyone change their natural social structure?

Also what is a more stable situation - unrelated tribes lumped into a superficial system of 2 main gangs fighting for UNRWA money, being dragged into wars to support tribes they don't even marry with because it serves Hamas and PA political survival;
Or system where each can have their voice, independent economy and have less "gangs" to compete with?

Although counterintuitive to European way of life, the later seems like a more stable situation.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

fncceo said:


> I like it ... but Hamas and PLO will never voluntarily agree to give up the control they have over their local populations.  If the sheiks were to create militias to fight the PLO in the West Bank, the situation will quickly degenerate into a Beirut scenario with Israel just trying to contain the spillover of violence into their own territory.
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> No Jews in the West Bank would be safe from the resulting carnage.



And what if there are patrons from notable Arabian dynasties, who's word has weight, and have familial relationship to the tribes? 

I don't hear about civil wars in the UAE or even Saudia, and boy do they have resources to fight for
We may not like their way of life but seems they have this thing working for them.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

fncceo said:


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You might be surprised:

*SUMMARY

The Palestinian local elections held May 13 showed that Palestinians voted for tribal and independent lists instead of political lists, giving serious cause for concern.*


"Hamas, the Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine boycotted the elections on the grounds that they were held in the West Bank and not the Gaza Strip. Hamas refused to hold the elections in Gaza in protest against the Palestinian High Court of Justice’s calling off in September 2016 of the local elections that were scheduled for the next month, as well as in protest of President Mahmoud Abbas’ formation of the Local Elections Court on Jan. 10 without consulting the Palestinian factions....

Yousef Tamiza, a campaign manager for the tribal National Alliance list in the town of Idna in Hebron, in the south of the West Bank, told Al-Monitor that the National Alliance list won 10 out of 13 seats, and included an alliance of seven families in the city of Hebron, namely the Tamiza, Islimiya, Abu Jahisha, Khalawah, Abu Zeltah, Awad and Abu Asaad families. Independent lists won the other three seats.

*Nashar said that in many of the West Bank governorates and villages, voters opted for independent and tribal lists because they are tired of the Palestinian parties and their political affiliations, which he said have a negative impact on the interests of citizens. *Also, he added, voters have become convinced that partisan lists never implement their electoral programs....

Abdel Sattar Qassem, a professor of political science at An-Najah National University in Nablus, told Al-Monitor* that the victory of the tribal lists in many municipal councils in the local elections poses a threat to the Palestinian people because of the return of what he called "tribal reunification" at the expense of the national public interest.* He attributed this to the people’s loss of confidence in political parties.

He told Al-Monitor, “There is a great leadership vacuum in the Palestinian arena — both socially and politically — and someone had to fill this vacuum, so families and tribes managed to do so.”

He added, “Tribes are a separatist social structure, not a unitary one. Each family works to preserve its own interests, regardless of the public interest, and this is why a great danger is lurking. Social and political division will come to affect individuals and families in one town, whereas it has been *until now only confined to Hamas and Fatah.”*

The resurgence of Palestinian tribalism







*(the page doesn't exist anymore,however the text above is from that exact article that I've copy-pasted a year ago when it was available post#408)


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Ropey said:


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Yes, the way I view this solution - UAE, Qatar and Saudia are a key.
They might be the authority and voice to whom their tribesmen in Palestine can listen and respect. Explain them in their language so to speak,the direction the Arab world is heading.

Less and less tolerate Hamas and PA and their suicidal choices, while the Arab world is transforming and modernizing. They know Israel is a key, while Hamas and PA are the ones who'll drag them into confrontations they no longer deem viable.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
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No one moves, those who live in the rural areas either join the city or receive an Israeli citizenship if they want. The can stay and get a citizenship of one of the cities their tribe belongs to, but of course that has its' disadvantages, as any foreign national living abroad.

He also talked about rural lands, surrounding villages that fused with the city to be a part of the Emirate.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

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Very interesting post.
I don't see Arabs winning Iran, I see Iran reaching out as far as Yemen and Gaza successfully encircling the whole region.

However I agree 200% that it's not a Jewish game directly, I oppose any direct treaties between Jews and Palestinian Arabs, neither us nor them are allowed to sing anything on land issues with each other, that's what any Rabbi or Sheikh will tell You. 

If it's directed not as an isolated solution between the 2, but as part of a bigger regional shift maybe it can be done. It's like we're reaching for help in a tribal dispute, to get advice in how to make a SULHA rather than divide territory... start with this the rest is easier. Me thinks.

Indeependent  think we are allowed to sign with a 3rd party who are not Yoshvei Haaretz?


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## fncceo (Apr 16, 2018)

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No one would be happier than me to see Hamas and the PLO lose their stranglehold on the process.  

I’m saying I don’t believe they’ll go quietly. It’s gonna be bloody.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

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Yes there can be a small war of independence. But not everywhere, PA is easy with a little help from fellow Arab tribesmen. Gaza can be helped by Egypt.

As long as the aim is independence.

Edit: actually if Ureqat becomes an Emir, Barghouthis get their Emirate, Tamimis establish themselves as the ruling dynasty of of Arab Hebron...there might be no PA left at all to fight.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

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In Shemoneh Esrei, the request for building Yerushalayim preceeds the request for the restoration of the Davidic Dynasty.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

Linkiloo said:


> Try to get the Arabs to agree on anything.....


Uh.

GCC

Check it out.

Ishmael is on the move... against the Medes.

With Isaac providing intelligence networking connectivity.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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Don't be so sure.

Ishmael hates to have his own die.

Palestinians are Ishmael.


The Medes are not going to like dying when no one knows it's happening.

They will end the stupidity.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Indeependent said:


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And minim precede both...yet.
 What need would there be once Yerushalaim is built, they'll come themselves. What until then?  Impossible?


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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Iranians will win Iran. No one will attack Iran.

Iran changed it's name from  Persia (Farsia) for a reason.

Aryan.

They will simply be bounded by 800+ million Arabs a la GCC.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

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It appears God is putting a lot of pressure on European Jews to move to Israel.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

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There is the brachah of God gathering the exiles.
Moving to Israel is often God forcing us into such a decision.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

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So he's not THE  Persian king  who goes to destroy 2/3 of the world?


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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Who came first. The Persian or the Mede?

70+ million Medes. 1 state.  (after removing them from Lebanon and the Crescent arena) as a military power, that is.

800+ million Arabs. 22 Arab states. Even the Shia state of Azerbaijan is with Israel and the GCC.


Enough said.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

This war is not Islam vs Christianity, white vs brown or oil.

It's evil vs good.

The pattern in history shows that when that fight starts, evil loses... in the end.

I mean, that's the reason for the Dark Ages... and it seemed to fail.

The Pope is not the only one unimpressed and he holds land rights in Eretz Yisrael.

Too bad, so sad.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

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Indeependent said:


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Ok, so when do we meet? 

I fail to follow Your line of thought, are You saying there's nothing that we can do politically until then?
My initial question was whether technically we can sign anything through a 3rd party?
Or is it treason in light of how things progressed since the last century?


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

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Isaac and Ishmael buried Abraham our father together...
Ishmael also has a partial right to the land due to how he does circumcision.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

Brit Milah and Brit Pariah. The Arabs didn't have to deal with the Greeks in the way the Jews did vis a vis circumcision.

Both following.

Ishmael is telling Isaac to do tshuva.

The land was given to Isaac.  Ishmael's rights will come at the end.

When he does tshuva.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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It's clear. What goes around, comes around.

G-d is telling Ishmael to do tshuva.

_But that was from the beginning._

Remember?


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Ropey said:


> Brit Milah and Brit Pariah. The Arabs didn't have to deal with the Greeks in the way the Jews did vis a vis circumcision.
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Amen! Ishtabach Shemo laad.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

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"ויקברו אותו יצחק וישמעאל בניו אל מערת המכפלה". אמר רבי יוחנן, ישמעאל עשה תשובה בחיי אביו, מזה שהקדים ואומר ויקברו אותו יצחק וישמעאל, קודם מוזכר יצחק ואח"כ ישמעאל, אף על גב שישמעאל הגדול ויצחק הקטן, מזה שהקדים אותו והסכים ישמעאל שיצחק ילך בראש, משמע שהוא הנהיג אותו עליו ומזה מבינים שעשה תשובה. זה הפירוש המילולי למה שכתוב בגמרא בבא בתרא ט"ז.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

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History shows that the *majority* of Jews are happy where they have settled until God turns on the heat.
God, though, rejoices in those that don’t need to feel the heat to rebuild Israel.
My wife and I would love to go on Aliyah in a year or two.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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QFP


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

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Incorrect.
And Ishmael himself never made such a claim.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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 Next month I finalize Aliyah. 

I'm living in suitcases.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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Yes they did and it was G-d who made the claim.

Ishmael was ever wild and needed to be tamed... to this day. _It was ever his character._

They seem to be taming themselves...atm.

G-d works in wondrous ways...even when there are more misunderstandings than understandings between man.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

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Got a verse?


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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If you can't find it?

Then you're lost from reality already.

Both issues of Ishmael & Esau were of character.


_What is the remedy for that?_


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

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I know the blessing.
It says zero about inheriting any part of the land.
Got a verse I haven’t seen in the last 40 years?


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Apr 16, 2018)

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Hi,

I read it. It’s interesting but I also liked Olmert’s Peace Plan at the time. It could have worked but Abbas didn’t offer ANY alternatives.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

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The inheritance is Ishmael's burial rights.

You still don't get it.

Jews and Arabs are two people.  

Only two people. 1 and 1.

Jews are all 1.

Ishmael is all 1.

Character is *indeependent *and needs tshuva to reform us.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


It was a suicude note.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

Ropey said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...


What on earth are you referring to?
I need a verse.
Google the verse that doesn’t exist and post the Link.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

You need to read the book instead of act as if you're the book.

I don't need to prove a thing.

Keep going your own way.

By choice.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

Ropey said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...


Are you being sarcastic?


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

D'oh

/moving on


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

Ropey said:


> D'oh
> 
> /moving on


I haven’t had enough coffee this morning.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Probably gonna make fool of myself...isn't this relevant?

ומצינו בזוהר הקדוש (ח"ב לב, א), בענין הזה דברים נוראים, וזה לשונו הקדוש. תא חזי ארבע מאה שנין קיימא ההוא ממנא דבני ישמעאל, ובעא קמי קודשא בריך הוא א"ל מאן דאתגזר אית ליה חולקא בשמך, א"ל אין, א"ל והא ישמעאל דאתגזר (ולא עוד אלא דאתגזר בר תליסר שנין), אמאי לית ליה חולקא בך כמו יצחק, א"ל דא אתגזר כדקא יאות וכתיקונוי ודא לאו הכי, ולא עוד אלא דאלין מתדבקין בי כדקא יאות לתמניא יומין ואלין רחיקין מני עד כמה ימים, א"ל ועם כל דא כיון דאתגזר לא יהא ליה אגר טב בגיניה, ווי על ההוא זמנא דאתיליד ישמעאל בעלמא ואתגזר, מה עבד קודשא בריך הוא, ארחיק להו לבני ישמעאל מדבקותא דלעילא, ויהב להו חולקא לתתא בארעא קדישא בגין ההוא גזירו דבהון, וזמינין בני ישמעאל למשלט בארעא קדישא כד איהי ריקניא מכלא זמנא סגי כמה דגזירו דלהון בריקניא בלא שלימו, ואינון יעכבון להון לבנ"י לאתבא לדוכתייהו עד דישתלים ההוא זכותא דבני ישמעאל וכו', ויעו"ש עוד בעתיד בני ישמעאל במלחמותיהם, ומלחמת בני אדום עליהם, וארעא קדישא לא יתמסר בידי אדום, והמלחמות על רומי וכו', ביום ההוא יהיה ה' אחד ושמו אחד. ע"כ.


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Apr 16, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Israel’s suicide note? He proposed Jerusalem be a “ International City”   Giving up not ALL of the West Bank, just keeping the “ Jewish Quarter” and “ Right of Return” of some “ refugees” If that was accepted, why would it be Israel’s demise?


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## Coyote (Apr 16, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



I think Olmert’s plan would still be good but I don’t think he had the political capital to push it through on his side.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Frankly I think he wouldn't survive. 
This is more clear on the Arab side. That's why I mentioned 3rd party.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...


You know what happens when a Jew surrenders an inch?
Why did *Israel* have to surrender land it won in a *war*?
Why not the Golan Heights?
I think you’re losing sight of the fact that Israel back then was not the powerhouse Israel is now.


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Apr 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Abbas rejected it. Supposedly because Olmert didn’t propose total “ Right of Return” and he did not want Jerusalem to be an “ International Cityl


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...


And if he “accepted” it there would have been a war the next day.


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## Coyote (Apr 16, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



I also think he had doubts on whether Olmert could deliver....but it is all water under the bridge now.  What do you think of the Emerites idea?


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I think giving the South West back to Mexico is a superb idea.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Indeependent 
But is an agreement through 3rd party surrender? On the basis that Ishmael recognizes Isaac's rights and vice versa?


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Apr 16, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


 
I agree that Israel should NEVER give up the Golan Heights. They already gave up Gaza. Olmerts plan was not getting out of E. Jerusalem. Just giving the Palestinians “ Sovereignty” over their own . However, any “ Right of Return” should be wiped off the table


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Guys but we're not talking here about the Golan heights.

Let's take Gaza as an example, it's easier to see it as a possible Emirate.
What steps would it take to transform it to a full time prosperous emirate?


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Apr 16, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



IF ( lol) a official Peace Treaty was signed to show the World and War broke out then I would have to say: WINNER ( Israel) take all !!!


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...


That’s what Arabs need...sovereignty and guns!


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

rylah said:


> Indeependent
> But is an agreement through 3rd party surrender? On the basis that Ishmael recognizes Isaac's rights and vice versa?


Since 680AD, the Arabs have recognized their right to be masters of the world.


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

rylah said:


> Guys but we're not talking here about the Golan heights.
> 
> Let's take Gaza as an example, it's easier to see it as a possible Emirate.
> What steps would it take to transform it to a full time prosperous emirate?


Gaza belongs to Ham and his descendants.
Western Gaza needs to conquer Eastern Gaza.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Guys but we're not talking here about the Golan heights.
> ...



Do You think thew can do it alone...or need help (not from Israel)?


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## Indeependent (Apr 16, 2018)

rylah said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


We don’t even know if Western Gaza is playing Eastern Gaza against Israel.
We have no clue whatsoever.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



If You give up Jerusalem You don't have a right to Tel-Aviv... or anything
That's why Dr. Kedar didn't talk about her.


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Apr 16, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent
> ...




Maybe a Sand Dune or Pyramid


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

rylah said:


> Probably gonna make fool of myself...isn't this relevant?
> 
> ומצינו בזוהר הקדוש (ח"ב לב, א), בענין הזה דברים נוראים, וזה לשונו הקדוש. תא חזי ארבע מאה שנין קיימא ההוא ממנא דבני ישמעאל, ובעא קמי קודשא בריך הוא א"ל מאן דאתגזר אית ליה חולקא בשמך, א"ל אין, א"ל והא ישמעאל דאתגזר (ולא עוד אלא דאתגזר בר תליסר שנין), אמאי לית ליה חולקא בך כמו יצחק, א"ל דא אתגזר כדקא יאות וכתיקונוי ודא לאו הכי, ולא עוד אלא דאלין מתדבקין בי כדקא יאות לתמניא יומין ואלין רחיקין מני עד כמה ימים, א"ל ועם כל דא כיון דאתגזר לא יהא ליה אגר טב בגיניה, ווי על ההוא זמנא דאתיליד ישמעאל בעלמא ואתגזר, מה עבד קודשא בריך הוא, ארחיק להו לבני ישמעאל מדבקותא דלעילא, ויהב להו חולקא לתתא בארעא קדישא בגין ההוא גזירו דבהון, וזמינין בני ישמעאל למשלט בארעא קדישא כד איהי ריקניא מכלא זמנא סגי כמה דגזירו דלהון בריקניא בלא שלימו, ואינון יעכבון להון לבנ"י לאתבא לדוכתייהו עד דישתלים ההוא זכותא דבני ישמעאל וכו', ויעו"ש עוד בעתיד בני ישמעאל במלחמותיהם, ומלחמת בני אדום עליהם, וארעא קדישא לא יתמסר בידי אדום, והמלחמות על רומי וכו', ביום ההוא יהיה ה' אחד ושמו אחד. ע"כ.



They are cut off. Ishmael.

They are not of the chosen.  Their tshuva is light and weak.

Still, that changes nothing I've said.


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Probably gonna make fool of myself...isn't this relevant?
> ...



Ahi this is a very interesting exchange, but I think most of the people can't understand what or why we're talking about 

So all around, before we dig the details -Palestinian Emirates, viable or not?


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

Most of these details were worked out long before there was an Arab "Palestinian" identity.

The Arabs are simply going back to what they wanted in the beginning before they were hijacked by cultural Marxism which enabled a division to create extremism.

The Jews had to fight off cultural Marxism after the state's creation.

This 'deal' will be in full accordance with both brothers and_ there's no need for interlopers or interlocutors._

That was the real problem.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is a solution to what problem?


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## rylah (Apr 16, 2018)

Ropey said:


> Most of these details were worked out long before there was an Arab "Palestinian" identity.
> 
> The Arabs are simply going back to what they wanted in the beginning before they were hijacked by cultural Marxism which enabled a division to create extremism.
> 
> ...




There's this thing, You know that Jews in Judea Samaria are establishing direct contacts with chief sheikhs. What's common and mutual is the understanding that neither Hamas or PLO can sign anything on the land - they just don't have the authority to sign anything because ...wait for it... the land doesn't belong to "Palestinians" (in the sense of the meaning of the word in politics). On our side, my Rabbi for example says we're not  allowed to sign anything off (directly?), not even water agreements.

I like the essence of the Emirate idea, to empower local sheikhs to get rid of Hamas and PLO, just don't know how to reconcile these two conditions mentioned above. Guess that's like trying to eat the cake and leave it full.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Most of these details were worked out long before there was an Arab "Palestinian" identity.
> ...


I understand why the Marxist controlled Arabs with their supporting French, German, Russians etc. . .  never wanted a Jew in the room _to negotiate_. They are big on division. Hegel showed them the way and Marx ran with it.

The left are big on courtrooms without defense attorneys.

imo?

Do not worry.

G-d's got this one... in the bag and he's put some of the good old boys in the negotiating room.



Boy, I bet all the cultural Marxists don't like what's happening ... or this thread.


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## Ropey (Apr 16, 2018)

rylah said:


> Indeependent
> But is an agreement through 3rd party surrender? On the basis that Ishmael recognizes Isaac's rights and vice versa?


Ishmael has no rights until the end of times. This is simply mundane negotions over what G-d has given Isaac.

G-d gives those rights to Ishmael _when the time comes at the end when the time is not of man anymore. Until then, we have choice_. There are two possibilities and so the rights are at the end... when their actions that are still in the future can be determined.

Still, if we Jews can get enough of our own to perform tshuva, the end is now and no pain.

If we can't, the end is at 6000 years and there will be pain.

Ismael will not like it.  So they had better be good and help the chosen in their performing of tsuva.  Esau as well.

Or they will both not like it.


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## danielpalos (Apr 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> 
> The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> ...


Sounds like it could work.  Draft an aristocrat to bailout an area of Anarchy, with the goodness of Order.

Or, let's ask the UN to do it.


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## danielpalos (Apr 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> 
> The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> ...


I raise you.

How about The Dey of Palestine?


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## rylah (May 1, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Do You live in a city that provides its' own food or do You buy in a supermarket?
Are houses built from stones and wood in the area or do they usually use abroad manufactured materials?
Does Hi-Tech manufacturing depend on local materials?

This is the distribution network globally. Once they get their own govt in the Emirates they can develop any network...trucks move even today to and from Israel, no reason they can't move from one Emirate to another if they cooperate, and actually this can be an incentive to create that inner network of cooperation/distribution.


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## rylah (May 1, 2018)

Coyote P F Tinmore Shusha RoccoR 

I know for example that much of the furniture in Israel was brought from Gaza.
Arabs from the West Bank have a huge chunk, if not a monopoly on construction in Israel.

Americans might have a difficulty to comprehend how small is the territory, here it's a totally different economy.

What I'm  talking about is mainly modern industry to push the society forward to integrate and be competent in the world economy, beside traditional small factories that can exist by their side.

Industries like, tourism, high-tech, cyber, medicine and scientific development etc...do not demand much territory and local resources, and a are capable of providing a higher standard of living.

Thoughts?


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## danielpalos (May 1, 2018)

That position is simply too complicated for an Emir; it should require a Dey.  A Dey may establish a Deylicate to ensure the delicate operations required for Peace in that region.


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## Coyote (May 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote P F Tinmore Shusha RoccoR
> 
> I know for example that much of the furniture in Israel was brought from Gaza.
> Arabs from the West Bank have a huge chunk, if not a monopoly on construction in Israel.
> ...



I like the idea, but wonder how to get there...


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## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> 
> The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> ...



I've searched for others advocating a more loosely controlled Palestine confederation. This GUY -- sounds reasonable NOW -- but his work was all I could I find on the concept about 5 or 6 ago. And I gotta say -- I do not TRUST his motives. He wrote an academic piece that sounds like (and this is difficult for me to admit) a Zionist Zealot. His ONLY motivation at the time for to benefit Israel..  See ====

The Eight State Solution by Mordechai Kedar | West Bank | Palestinian National Authority

He seems to have found "marketing points" to sell his idea that don't sound so one-sided. Maybe he's "moderated" but he's still not SELLING the vision of how valuable that real estate COULD BECOME.  Because the history of Palestinians is not actually defined by "a map" or "a govt". And I'm CERTAIN that a "city-state" approach with transport/travel/infrastructure improvements that CONNECT all of these semi-autonomous would be a GREAT solution.

I've commented on how it's a unique opportunity to put the Palestinians in the MIDDLE of the Middle East several times. See links below. Was even gonna write it up and try to place it in a couple journals. If Trump took all that Wall money he's gonna waste and started a visionary "Palestine Trade Route" Infrastructure plan, he might get 2 Nobel prizes...   


What Will Improve the Palestinian Economy?

Refugees and the right to return

*Go look at a map of the major Pali Cities and distances involved. It's not even Colorado hiway scale. You could put a "loop" from Gaza and Egypt thru the Sinai -- up the Dead Sea coast/Jordan Valley  with off ramps to Jordan and the Pali city centers. And continue all the way up to Lebanon and "God Willing" Syria and beyond some day. Relatively cheap price to END this festering sore.*


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote P F Tinmore Shusha RoccoR
> ...


When looking at the moon reflection in the water, don't mistake the reflection neither the finger pointing to it as the moon.

I was going to post a long response about politics of the region....better sum it up to:

(a) Make it clear that there're more than just 2 sides, and that it's a zero-sum game only for PLO/Hamas by definition *and inertia*. They're not the ones having the last word, ability or any weight compared to-

(b) the people and nations we can reach,  that have more weight and authority in their word and signature - instead of talking about peace with warring Hamas/PLO fractions, we should establish solid connections with the people on the ground, the respected Sheikhs of the communities in the cities.
Instead of "peace between Palestinian Arabs and Israel will solve the whole of middle east", it the opposite - "normalization between Israel and Arab states will create the leverage and conditions for peace with the Palestinian Arabs".

(c) leave Hamas/PLO 2 choices - either shift the resources to the people and normalization, or become an irrelevant obstacle against the healthy developments in the whole region.

----------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's evident that both Israel and Arab states actively move towards that direction,much of it is not in the open yet, but the notion of a wider Israeli-Arab alliance is becoming more and more a basic natural development in the region, and a topic of daily political discourse.

Practically, in our small circle, we could actually make a list of concrete questions, suggestions and ask Dr. Kedar for a response.


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> ...



I like this idea a lot!
It relates to one of my questions about leverage, how to position this within a wider regional shift, rather than a single attempt to push another version of a solution on the market.

He might look like a zealot because his main efforts are not in talking to the west, but directly to Arabs in the region, and boy does he speak their language.
Since he came into the public arena, by his example Dr. Kedar managed to make big shifts in the way Israel communicates with the Arab world. Now Israelis have a variety of channels to talk to the Arab public directly, raise difficult questions and invite for an open conversation.
Today Israelis are regulars on Arab media, 10 years ago this would be a joke.

Back to Your proposed economic project, it might take a number of more years, maybe another decade - but a shift in the economic development of the region can be the symbolic monument a successful solution at work.

Dr Kedar position on cooperation with the neighbors is simple and clear - "what can You offer the Israelis?". "Peace" and normalization is not something to be waved in the air for baseless extortions, Israel has a lot to bring to the table for the benefit of the whole region, "what can *You* offer Israel?"

There's a tremendous potential for all involved in the idea You presented.
Certainly would like to hear Dr Kedar's analysis of such a proposition.

Q. Can You sketch such a map, with minimal efforts, just to make it easier for the discussion?


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## danielpalos (May 23, 2018)

A Deylicate could expire naturally, or be continued as long as necessary.


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## Shusha (May 23, 2018)

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.


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## danielpalos (May 23, 2018)

Infrastructure is always good.


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.



Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?


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## Shusha (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.
> ...



Doesn't seem impossible to me.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.
> ...



I'm actually gonna a write an article with the goal of getting this published. I'll rough out a map tonight. Roughly, ALL the neighbors cede a bit of land to build an elevated expressway. Roughly starts at the Egyptian Gate (both sides) at Gaza -- winds thru the Sinai (mostly unpopulated) -- up the Israeli side of the Dead Sea -- All with limited access. Then it goes up the Jordan River valley (maybe both sides eventually) with feeders into the semi-autonomous Palestinian city states and a route to East Jerusalem as well. Would connect to Jordan of course at two or more major roads. COULD continue to the N. extreme of Israel to connect Lebanon and potentially Syria and Iraq (not any time soon).

The RESULT is a Trade Route that connects the entire Arab Middle East. And these proposed Pali city states are at the HUB of all that trade. It requires VERY LITTLE of land ceded by Israel in places where it doesn't matter all that much..

*Admin of this route would be jointly secured by Egypt, Jordan, Israel and whatever loose Palestinian Federation comes into existence.* Does NOT require a UNITY Pali National Govt that's been missing for centuries. But it's an offer ANY resident of the area would be stupid to refuse. And the WORLD could certainly fund it out of petty cash compared to the cost of continuing the conflict. Gaza would have a REAL seaport, And an airport in the West Bank accessible by this route.

I calculated this about 400 to 700 miles of super hiway. With limited on/off access. And a couple bridges. It's ELEVATED to enhance security and minimize the footprint on the existing roads and land.

Check out the video that Rylah posted below Coyote. Your guy in the OP and I are not the ONLY ones thinking a different kind of solution. Not 1,2, or 8 states -- but a LIVABLE and productive solution..


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.


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## Shusha (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.



Might be a fair point if you would make it. Instead of just swinging by and dropping a map and the demonization of against Israel.  

What is the difference between a bantustan and Monaco?  Or the difference between a bantustan and sovereign First Nations peoples?  Or a bantustan and Vatican City?  Or a bantustan and Scotland?  

Neither the size of the place nor the location of a place make a bantustan.  What does?


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Although I have some reservations about the main artery of the road going through Gaza and talking about and mentioning an airport and a seaport in the same breath, I'd like to see the article first.

This idea is principally based the same way if I understand You, looks impossible with Gaza under Hamas, but there're options:


USMB's  Deal of the century"?


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.



Weren't bantustans based on skin color?
This is not it...well only if You think that an Israeli passport suddenly changes ones skin and race.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I hear the Island would be in Israel's territorial waters. So it would be no different than now.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Wouldn't connect to Gaza under Hamas. Not acceptable to Egypt or Jordan either. Just leave it dangling like a bunch of carrots on the Egypt side of Checkpoint and EVENTUALLY -- the Hamas issue will be gone. 

BUT -- of course include the connect to a Gaza Seaport as a proposal PENDING the creation of a Gaza "city state" govt amenable to peace and prosperity and trade. 

In fact -- dangle the construction of the WB Airport and the Gaza Sea port as part of the deal.. 

It COULD be "the deal of century" or of 3 centuries..  LOL... Folks have focused for too long on drawing lines. That's how the Brits screwed up the Mid East in the first place. It should be LIVABILITY and prosperity and trade and trust. And that's how get folks to focus on the DEAL and NOT "the map"..


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...




Can't tell you how much I appreciate that video. That's the world I live in. Solving issues and making deals. There's been VERY little of that involved in any peace process to date. 

THANK-YOU.. Will bookmark that if I write the article this summer..


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
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With Hamas there -- wouldn't even happen. But all this more COULD happen and make Palestinians very rich and alive and happy...


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
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Who was Israel's boogyman before there was Hamas?


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

Do you all recognize the significance of creating such a Trade Route in the Levant? It benefits ALL the neighbors. Jordan would be greatly boosted connected by 4 or 5 hour truck traffic to an Med port. 

It's almost irresistible unless you HATE trade, prosperity, and jobs. And maybe Hamas does -- but not the rest of the region..


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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> > flacaltenn said:
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Having an airport would be no different  to not having one?
You should stop dreaming about Israel's disappearance,there's no way around it. If You think Gaza should not develop until the the day Israel is gone...then You're just part of the problem, not the solution.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Do you all recognize the significance of creating such a Trade Route in the Levant? It benefits ALL the neighbors. Jordan would be greatly boosted connected by 4 or 5 hour truck traffic to an Med port.
> 
> It's almost irresistible unless you HATE trade, prosperity, and jobs. And maybe Hamas does -- but not the rest of the region..


My question is not the route. My question is who can slam the doors?


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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You have nothing.
Pretty pathetic how Israel-hater will fight any opportunity to make Palestinian lives better.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Israel is the only one denying Palestinian development.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Let me know when Israel allows Palestinian development.


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## Hollie (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Yours is the typical attitude of the intransigent islamic supremacist. 

Your Jew hatreds coupled with the writ of your politico-religious ideology requires that all of Israel is forever an Islamist waqf as promised by the inventor of islam. 

You're on board with that as long as others die trying to return to those halcyon days of the caliphate. 

That's actually comical as the caliphate isn't coming back and as a nation, Israel gets stronger.


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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We're discussing it right now.


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## Hollie (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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Let me know when you stop burrowing tunnels in furtherance of the gee-had.

Until then, Chuckles, be a well behaved wannabe and do as you're told. 

Subhan Allah.


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> It's almost irresistible unless you HATE trade, prosperity, and jobs. And maybe Hamas does -- but not the rest of the region..



Yes, this is spot on!
End of conflict or improvement of conditions is Hamas' greatest threat to existence.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


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The only thing needed is a change in Israel's policies.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.



Again -- You're not helping envision a working and prosperous Palestine if you're only trying to compare maps of S. Africa with Palestine.  PEACE won't come by just drawing lines on a map. The Brits tried that 150 years and screwed up the entire MidEast..


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Nothing ever will appease Hamas,  so why bother?
The only thing needed is for more neighbors to normalize relations with Israel,
and this is happening

flacaltenn's Road project has just the right potential for such an alliance.

P F Tinmore
Why would You want Palestinian Arabs be left out of this joint regional development?
This seems counter productive and self-defeating on a number of levels.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Doesn't need a change in roads. Needs a change in policies.


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## Sixties Fan (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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Hamas and the PLO/ Fatah Islamic policies of destruction of Israel.

THAT must really go !!!


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Do you all recognize the significance of creating such a Trade Route in the Levant? It benefits ALL the neighbors. Jordan would be greatly boosted connected by 4 or 5 hour truck traffic to an Med port.
> ...



Question would be for what valid REASONS can ANY of the nations connected to this --- slam the doors? 

I suppose all that would be agreed upon by Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel and whatever "federation" the Palestine City States wanted to create. Would be up to the Palestinians who belongs in the "federation" and can benefit as long as the group Administrating the route agree to provide security services. 

I doubt Egypt, Israel, Jordan would have issues sharing security, maintenance, customs roles.  In FACT, if GAZA had a port connected to this -- It could EASILY be staffed at customs with Jordanians, or Egyptians or at some point Palestinians. If they ever got their act together enough to FORM an Internationally recognized Customs agency. 

Why don't you go help them do that??


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## Hollie (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Israel's policies are exampled by western style representative governments, free markets / free trade, secure borders and those attributes which define a first world society. Unfortunately, the islamic middle east has never embraced those attributes. 

You _want_ conflict and you _want_ bloodshed. You have this retrograde notion that all your ills will be solved with the destruction of Israel. What you won't acknowledge is that overwhelmingly, the slaughter that Moslems are so willing to inflict on one-another has nothing to do with the existence of Israel.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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No see. That's where you're wrong. Even by the archaic "map method" --- you would STILL have issues about CONNECTIVITY of the Pali areas. So ROADS are actually on the table in ANY peace settlement. HERE -- roads and connectivity go OFF THE MAP to include a large view of TRADE and commerce.

*In fact, as part of the process, the Arab neighbors should consider CLOSING their God awful Pali refugee camps and TRADING some land --- near Gaza -- near the Jordan River - Near the Lebanon border- to the Palestinians as PART of this solution. *

Learn how stuff actually works.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


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Everything into and out of the West Bank and Gaza is controlled by Israel. How would this system remove that control?


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

Hollie said:


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Oh jeese.


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


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So much reason in these words.
Truly inspiring.

In know I might be jumping too high  - this might be a HUGE player in the alliance, we actually might look forward to a sort of unified economic space in the middle east like the EEU. 
The potential is tremendous, not in the least for the US.

Gulf Cooperation Council - Wikipedia


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Trade is based on joint control - one can't move products without being controlled on land and in the air by the neighbors. You just can't fly wherever You want without coordination.
What You're insisting upon is anarchy.

What we're talking about is -cooperation for the benefit of all involved, Palestinian Arabs and Israel specifically, and the whole region.


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## danielpalos (May 23, 2018)

A Deylicate could ensure Order over Chaos, every time this issue comes up; that is what they are Good for.


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## admonit (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Nothing prevents them from being rich and alive today. The conflict is not about money.


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## Sixties Fan (May 23, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> A Deylicate could ensure Order over Chaos, every time this issue comes up; that is what they are Good for.



It may have worked during the Ottoman Empire, for sometime.
It does not mean that it would work in the long run with the Gaza and the PA, when it comes to continuous attempts at assassinations by one group or another.

When one looks at the history of Dey, it only lasted 40 years.


*Dey* (Arabic: داي, from Turkish _dayı_[1][2]) was the title given to the rulers of the Regency of Algiers (Algeria), Tripoli,[3] and Tunis under the Ottoman Empire from 1671 onwards. Twenty-nine _deys_ held office from the establishment of the deylicate in Algeria until the French conquest in 1830.[4]

The dey was chosen by local civilian, military, and religious leaders to govern for life and ruled with a high degree of autonomy from the Ottoman sultan. The main sources of his revenues were taxes on the agricultural population, religious tributes, and protection payments rendered by Corsairs, regarded as pirates who preyed on Mediterranean shipping. In the European part of the Ottoman Empire, in particular during its decline, leaders of the outlawed janissary and yamak troops sometimes acquired title of Dahi or Dahia, which is derived from Dey.[5]

The dey was assisted in governing made up of the Chiefs of the Army and Navy, the Director of Shipping, the Treasurer-General and the Collector of Tributes.

The realm of the dey of Alger (Algiers) was divided into three provinces (Constantine, Titteri and Mascara), each of which was administered by a bey (باي) whom he appointed.[6]

The rule of the deys of Alger came to an end on 5 July 1830, when Hussein Dey (1765–1838) surrendered to invading Frenchforces.[7]

The last Dey of Tripoli was killed by Ahmed Karamanli, who established the eponymous Karamanli dynasty in 1711.


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## danielpalos (May 23, 2018)

admonit said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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In my immaculate dream, a field marshal is rewarded with a Deylicate for a job, well done.

His instructions and Jurisdiction would include that lord, spiritual and temporal in His Jurisdiction.

The Job; to go and simply, marshal the resources of His jurisdiction, ensure Order over Chaos every time it comes up, and ensure the general prosperity of the People of the His Jurisdiction.  A stable trade Jurisdiction in any given Deylicate, is an automatic assumption.


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> A Deylicate could ensure Order over Chaos, every time this issue comes up; that is what they are Good for.



Palestinian society and politics are strongly based on family and tribal relations.
I think a Dey is an unfamiliar position for the majority of Arabs in Asia.

The Emirate idea is not about creating new institutions but working with the natural representatives of the society, creating solid connections with the natural leaders of the community who have the authority on the ground within each city- those are traditionally Sheikhs and Emirs.


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## danielpalos (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > A Deylicate could ensure Order over Chaos, every time this issue comes up; that is what they are Good for.
> ...


Why are we having problems in that region?  

Is it "serious" or not; a Dey should make things happen within His jurisdiction.

To address your concerns:



> The dey was chosen by local civilian, military, and religious leaders to govern for life and ruled with a high degree of autonomy



A Dey has no provision excuses: Only Results.  As lord spiritual and temporal in His jurisdiction; the People really can have a sense of Entitlement, to Deliver All of their Problems, unto their lord.

Only a Dey can make a bright new day, in Palestine.


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## rylah (May 23, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> rylah said:
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Ok, steps of implementation?


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## Coyote (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > A Deylicate could ensure Order over Chaos, every time this issue comes up; that is what they are Good for.
> ...


That is what intrigues me about the idea. We t end to assume that western style institutions are the only answers, with out regard to the cultures and traditions of the people effected.  One thing for sure...Palestinians have had a scarcity of representative leadership and an over abundance of corruption, and yet they are faced with the demand that ther e must be one voice speaking for them as a unified whole.  Maybe that is not the answer.  Maybe Gaza and WB should be negotiated with as seperate entities for examp,e.  Maybe this insistence that there be one voice speaking for all is actually hindering progress towards peace.


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## Coyote (May 23, 2018)

Another way to look at this idea is rather than Bantustans...it could be an EU.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

admonit said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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You SERIOUS? A badly run 50 year occupation and no self govt or access to trade routes isn't "nothing". 

I'll agree -- they are MUCH better off in "Palestine" than most of the other Palestinians in putrid detention camps in the rest of the Middle East -- but they are ISOLATED geographically and economically and LEGALLY..


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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By connecting all the OTHER Palestinian major cities states with access to EACH other and the rest of the Arab world. Build that Trade Corridor RIGHT UP to the Egyptian gate at Gaza and give it 5 years to develop and most of the Gaza residents will forget ALL ABOUT Hamas as "leadership". They'll see the REST of Palestine connected and thriving and will WANT to join the Federation that controls and uses these valuable assets.

In 6 or 8 years, the West Bank City states would have an Airhub. Gaza COULD have a world class seaport. Their attachment to Hamas would weaken and die.

Hamas leaves -- the road goes in.It's only about 50 miles of connector.  Commerce and trade begin.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
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You need MORE govt than just a "wise man judge". A city needs a budget for security, legal process, contracting for infrastructure, maybe by choice public education/training, hiring,  etc.  It's a LONG list to run an area with 60,000 or 100,000 people. It will take local council leadership HOWEVER they want to provide it. Even if it's NOT elected. Also need to have diplomatic and loose relations with OTHER areas of Palestine. And appointed leaders to SPEAK for the interests of the autonomous city state.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Will Israel allow the needed imports and exports to grow an economy. If you change the infrastructure without changing the policy, it is all for naught.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
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I came to the conclusion about 4 years ago that Palestinians were never gonna agree on much. Even expecting a "unified" government is probably never gonna happen. There was a documentary on Vice TV about the Pali fashion industry and it was a GREAT look at the differences city to city.

In one large Pali city there were lingerie shops and mild "adult" shops. In another, you could be seriously flogged for even thinking about it. THAT'S the way it is. So like their 3000 year history, the most stable autonomy is EXACTLY like your guy in the OP said -- It's by tribal and historical and family and religious sect kind of autonomy that is the best to be expected and what the PEOPLE are comfortable with. There's not a lot of TRUST between this dividing elements. And Hamas being an obvious Iranian Shiite proxy clan doesn't really have a home in that historical mix. But Hamas was a welfare group BEFORE the hand-over of Gaza and won the confidence of the people who DIDN'T trust a unified govt. 

Let them be autonomous regions or city states and have their own way with it. Then they don't need either a PAuthority or Hamas.


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## flacaltenn (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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I don't see any limits to the trade and commerce if the region is stable and Palis get to live in more local tribal governed way. SOMEONE has to provide internationally certified Customs/Immigration at an Airport or Seaport. But I believe that could be staffed by Jordan and Egypt while the Palis organize and stabilize their "city-states" for independence from Israel. 

You should see EVERY pali in the West Bank capable of getting goods from Egypt, Jordan and abroad by air cargo without a LOT of demands from Israel. Although Israel's relationship with the neighbors would allow a lot of "joint security" for the region and the Trade Hiway.. 

The "neighbors" are moving in that direction ANYWAYS given the threats from Iran and radicals. 

Think of the business opportunities for such a trade route. Just the service industry alone for trucker service, supplies, restaurants, and other roadside necessities. 

And there's no MILITARY risk posed to ANY of the neighbors with an elevated expressway. No military genius is EVER gonna to an attack using an elevated road. It's suicide. As long as the border checkpoints are OK and there's security/emergency units  covering the route -- there's no large scale intrusion issue. Not like a ground level Highway.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


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You are ducking my question.


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## Coyote (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
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Just ignore her...


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## admonit (May 24, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> admonit said:
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> > flacaltenn said:
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I'm very serious and say it again: the conflict is not about money. Everybody knows it. Even camels, which I can see from my window, know it.
If you think, that the problem is in "illegal occupation", a term which even the State Department today tries to avoid, then you should seek a serious political solution.
And BTW they have self government and they have access to trade routes. How do you think they import and export goods? Using magic Aladdin's lamp?


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## danielpalos (May 24, 2018)

rylah said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
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_The dey was chosen by local civilian, military, and religious leaders to govern for life and ruled with a high degree of autonomy.  _
_
The main sources of his revenues were taxes on the agricultural population, religious tributes, and protection payments rendered by Corsairs, regarded as pirates who preyed on Mediterranean shipping.
_
An updated Charter may be in order.



_
_


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## member (May 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> 
> The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> ...






* What are your thoughts on this?*






...the spokespeople for "the average-joe paletinian are:

- *Hamass*.  Terrorists

- and *abbass*:  a *nazi* (_"the jews brought the holocaust upon themselves"_)

solution(s):  eeew.  not this with

  mentality in charge."


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## flacaltenn (May 24, 2018)

admonit said:


> And BTW they have self government and they have access to trade routes. How do you think they import and export goods? Using magic Aladdin's lamp?



What kind of "self-government" do they have? Youre ignoring these facts that they've hardly EVER had any "self-governing" in their entire history. Even "Pre-Palestine". They COULD have had a seaport and airport in Gaza. It was part of the joint agreement before that deal blew up.. They DO export from Gaza.  Mostly farm products and simple processed foods. It's not reliable because they DO NOT HAVE a trade corridor.

*In a way, I agree that it's not about trade, prosperity, money to a LOT of Palestinians.* But those folks are not leaders or peace makers or nation builders. I agree there is NOT a pressing desire to advance into the 21st century as there is in most of the Arabian/Levant countries. And even in the "advanced" Arab world integrated countries like Egypt, Jordan, (used to be Lebanon), some of the Emirates ---- there's a general lack of desire to GIVE any govt the green light for any speedy progress and infrastructure.

But here's the deal. In another 50 years, these major Pali areas will be totally cut off from one another, turned into festering ghettos and become volatile beyond belief if Israel continues to strangle them a hectare at a time. HOW LONG you want to endure that process?

The only way to NEGOTIATE with a splintered Tribal/Religious/cultural anarchy mob -- is to give them a life in THIS CENTURY and let the leaders come forward to SELL and manage that transition. Much the way the Saudi tribe worked out how to connect with the world and look completely organized and legit and respected by the world.


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## ForeverYoung436 (May 24, 2018)

admonit said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
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You can see camels from your window?  Do you live in Israel?


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## admonit (May 25, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > And BTW they have self government and they have access to trade routes. How do you think they import and export goods? Using magic Aladdin's lamp?
> ...


The government which they elected.


> Youre ignoring these facts that they've hardly EVER had any "self-governing" in their entire history. Even "Pre-Palestine".


It's their problem.


> They COULD have had a seaport and airport in Gaza. It was part of the joint agreement before that deal blew up.. They DO export from Gaza.  Mostly farm products and simple processed foods. It's not reliable because they DO NOT HAVE a trade corridor.


How it can be reliable if the Palestinians, as part of their terrorist activity, constantly attack and burn goods crossings?


> *In a way, I agree that it's not about trade, prosperity, money to a LOT of Palestinians.* But those folks are not leaders or peace makers or nation builders..


Of course they are. Anyway, who is or who is not their leaders is an internal affair of Palestinians.


> But here's the deal. In another 50 years, these major Pali areas will be totally cut off from one another, turned into festering ghettos and become volatile beyond belief if Israel continues to strangle them a hectare at a time. HOW LONG you want to endure that process?


Exactly as long as Palestinians deny Israeli security and national interests. I suppose it will be very long.


> The only way to NEGOTIATE with a splintered Tribal/Religious/cultural anarchy mob -- is to give them a life in THIS CENTURY and let the leaders come forward to SELL and manage that transition. Much the way the Saudi tribe worked out how to connect with the world and look completely organized and legit and respected by the world.


What leaders? And who prevents them to come forward and to manage? Again, Palestinian leaders are an internal Palestinian affair.
The world respects Saudi oil, not the country.


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## admonit (May 25, 2018)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Yes. Well, in fact, I see more sheep than camels..


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > And BTW they have self government and they have access to trade routes. How do you think they import and export goods? Using magic Aladdin's lamp?
> ...





flacaltenn said:


> What kind of "self-government" do they have? Youre ignoring these facts that they've hardly EVER had any "self-governing" in their entire history.


Good point. Palestine was born under military occupation and has not seen a day without one all through to today. All of their so called leadership has been appointed by foreigners.


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## rylah (May 25, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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> > admonit said:
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If Palestine was born out of occupation - then 'Palestine' is itself occupation with no tail in the past.
Are You done with stupid self-defeating slogans? 

Really You're the only one here fighting  any notion of improvement and normalization, at the expense for ALL sides, and especially the Palestinian Arabs, *who need it more than anyone.*

You actually want them to stay behind so You have something to sell about how "bad Israel is", otherwise Your/Hamas position loses all ground of relevancy. All while in reality Israel is the one suggesting HUGE change in relations and wellbeing of ALL, not just Israel or Palestinan Arabs...*but the WHOLE REGION.*


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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You misread my post.


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## rylah (May 25, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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I read You spot on, it's irrelevant.


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2018)

rylah said:


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You were just spewing shit that had nothing to do with anything I have said.


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## rylah (May 25, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Discussing historic narratives of what happened a 100 years ago through beat up slogans- has zero relevance to reality. You just want the conflict to continue at the expense of ALL sides.

Q. What can You bring to the table that is of relevance in regards to normalization?


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2018)

rylah said:


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You are grasping at straws.


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## rylah (May 25, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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Look, You've made a funny, that's about the maximum level of substance You can bring to the table.

Q. Again why are You even relevant to the conversation, if all you seek is the continuation of conflict at the expense of ALL?


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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 Don't blame me for your reading comprehension problems.


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## rylah (May 25, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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^^^^^

I comprehend your self defeating position pretty well,
one doesn't need a university degree to understand that  Your argument stops at the point of written slogans from the 60's. That's about how much You're capable of independent thought.

Again, what makes You better than a cassette of old jokes transmitted through a megaphone?


----------



## jillian (May 25, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> 
> The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> ...



What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.


----------



## Coyote (May 25, 2018)

jillian said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> ...


The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin.  The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states.  It has eroded some however.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 25, 2018)

Coyote said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You clearly do not know what Arabs are, who the Palestinians are.

The genetics you believe in is for people like yourself who wish to believe that there are people amongst the Palestinians going as far back as 10,000 years ago, or longer......as the Arabs keep changing how long they have been living in the ancient land of Canaan.  Some now even attempting to make the Arabs be the Jewish People of the Torah.

The Arab leaders never had a support for a two state solution.
Just ask the Arab League which was formed to fight any attempts by the Jews to have a sovereign country of their own on their own ancestral Jewish land.  What was left of it after England gave 78% of it (TranJordan) to the Arab Hashemites.

The only two state solution they have ever agreed to has been one where Arab Muslims are the sovereign people on both.

The two state solution eroded in the Arab refusal to having a Jewish State next to it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008, and many other times.  And continues to do so.

Read the PLO, Hamas, Fatah charters, and find us one sentence which proves that the Arabs are only looking to have a second State for the Palestinians in Gaza and the PA areas of Judea and Samaria.


----------



## Coyote (May 25, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


I tend to view things scientifically and genetics is more accurate then highly charged partisan narratives each claiming the other is not valid.

I don’t agree with Arab attempt to erase or appropriate Jewish history any more than I agree with attempts to deny Palestinians a right to their history.  Both are nothing more then a means to portray them as invaders and disenfranchise them.  It doesn’t have to be either or.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 25, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Unfortunately the genetics you choose to believe in is a fallible one. It has been posted, if you choose to post the link for it, by many of those who deny that the European Jews are Jews.

It is one of the tools used to delegitimize, erase and appropriate who are the Jewish People in order to one day destroy Israel.

Post the link for the genetics you have said you believe in, please.


----------



## danielpalos (May 25, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Consider it from an "outside perspective"; why do Israelis have a State and Judeans keep getting the blame?


----------



## flacaltenn (May 25, 2018)

admonit said:


> The government which they elected



That govt DIED about 10 years ago now. Hasn't been an election since the civil war. The PA is functionly ge-poofed.. 



admonit said:


> It's their problem.



It's EVERY body's problem as long as Israel is "their keeper".  Also a problem for Jordan and Egypt and rest of the Palestinian diaspora. Although in most of THOSE countries --- they are captives in camps. 



admonit said:


> Of course they are. Anyway, who is or who is not their leaders is an internal affair of Palestinians.



You're not getting the entire point of this thread. The ENTIRE fucking world has been waiting for 50 years for them to form to form a govt that LOOKS like any other 21st century central govt. That's NOT their natural organization. Do not understand unity national govts.  NEVER HAD ONE. So the world and Israel could wait ANOTHER 50 years and it STILL wouldn't happen. This concept of "city-states" fits more with their natural tendencies and preferences for governance. And --- it's a workable solution if you provide the connectivity and infrastructure for them to trade and travel and interact with other nations how THEY choose to do it. 



admonit said:


> Exactly as long as Palestinians deny Israeli security and national interests. I suppose it will be very long.



It's not in the interests of ANY of the parties to extend this bad situation ANOTHER 50 years. If Israel wants to play to up to the bad press and accusations of abuse, it harms Israel forever.  The best solutions are to preserve Pali enclaves, have Jordan and Egypt (primarily) kick in some additional land in exchange for emptying their horrid camps and CONNECT ALL THIS with a trade and travel corridor that is MINIMAL interference and risk to Israel's security.


----------



## rylah (May 26, 2018)

Coyote said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Ok let me just politely suggest, that we should leave this kind of exchange entirely to the people directly involved.

There're many understandings going on on a level that westerners simply don't appreciate in their polite pc frame of political discourse.
But that's not a reason not to continue this conversation about the Emirates, we can simply leave out the conversation about who belongs and who doesn't...well until we get a Jew and a Palestinian Arab on board.

Let's be more practical.


----------



## rylah (May 26, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



I think this is the most natural way to look at the situation.
Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

What is also a natural truth is that although there might much more agreement between the cities than with the current govt, still the transition is not a smooth process, billions generated on ideology that no matter how there can never be any normalization. 

Agreement with Palestinian Arabs is a function of a wider agreement with Arab neighbors, not the other way around.And the Emirate solution is a symptom of this process, a change of vocabulary.

I like flacaltenn's idea about building a road. And I think it's symbolic of the wider process that goes in the neighborhood that should be welcomed for the sake of progress and wellbeing of the whole region.


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## flacaltenn (May 26, 2018)

rylah said:


> Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, *we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.*



THAT is what you got the "winner" for. Its an unnatural position to put Palestinians into that demands they appoint any kind of "unity" govt. If there's to be agreements and peace negotiations -- the negotiations have to have a "multi-party" Palestinian representation. The only way to get that many different "opinions" focused --- is to offer them something of value that they would stupid to refuse.  And get SOME of the parties to buy in and prosper and thrive. The others will eventually come around.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > The government which they elected
> ...


The Palestinians did elect a government that was the model for the ME. The elections were judged free and fair by all international observers.

It was too good for the US so they had a coup that trashed the government to this day.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, *we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.*
> ...


Abbas is the division at the behest of the US.


----------



## Hollie (May 26, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...



Such silly conspiracy conspiracies. 

Otherwise, Islamic terrorists fighting street battles as part of a civil war with the competing tribe is hardly a model for government.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


----------



## Hollie (May 26, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I expected as much. I had low expectations for a reasoned response.

The term _democracy_, and slogans like “a model for the ME”, like any other word(s) thrown around carelessly, can sometimes lose all resemblance to its original, intrinsic meaning. Nowhere is this more evident than in the abnormal of the Islamist Middle East, where armed terrorists are allowed to roam the streets, genocidal jihad groups participate in governance, and "elections" are made into a mockery by both.


----------



## Coyote (May 26, 2018)

*This thread is about a specific idea, please do not derail it.*


----------



## rylah (May 27, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, *we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.*
> ...



We basically agree, the Emirate solution is exactly based on letting more Palestinian voices have a say about their relations with Israel.

The Emirate notion is exactly giving voice to a wider variety of authorities in the Arab society than the 2 warring fractions, we wouldn't be talking about Emirates if those voices weren't heard.
However I have a reservation regarding the view that any further agreements are a function of a wide multi-party agreement, I see a need in approaching each local clan confederation and establish separate agreements with each city state.

This allows more flexibility with cities who do support normalization, and gives them more opportunities independent from the centralized govt that strives on conflict.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The Arabs are trying their best to erase Jewish History. One small example? They have already stated the Israelis have no Right to the Western Wall and it is NOT a part of Jewish History


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Life will be great on the Rez!


----------



## rylah (May 27, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



If anything Israel is the reservation You ignorant idiot, Arabs can and do live anywhere in the middle east.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...




What other answer would you expect from a Kool Aid Pro Palestinian drinker who does not respond to Abbas stating there shall be not one single Israeli in “ Palestine?” The “ Two State Solution” is DOA !!


----------



## danielpalos (May 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> 
> The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> ...


In my opinion, a Deylicate would already have initiatives in progress.  What objection can there be to a Dey.

Conflict in the Middle East is becoming a Proverb.  There are plenty of emirs.


----------



## rylah (May 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it.  Thank you rylah for bringing it up.
> ...



One of the objections is that a dey has nothing to do with the society at hand.
I know Arab Sheikhs, I haven't met a Dey in my life or heard an Arab mention such a position,


----------



## rylah (May 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



In the Emirates D'aaaaahhh.

Is there any more stable form of  government in the middle east?


----------



## rylah (May 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Arabia is part of the Middle East; and there is even a League.
> 
> What could an emir do that a dey would not?
> 
> ...



Any Emir.


----------



## danielpalos (May 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Arabia is part of the Middle East; and there is even a League.
> ...


Conflict in the Middle East is becoming a Proverb. There are plenty of emirs.


----------



## rylah (May 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



And most of them are an example of the only stable  Arab countries that progress in the middle east.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 27, 2018)

Hamas fears the Emirate Plan is becoming a reality


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## Shusha (May 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Hamas fears the Emirate Plan is becoming a reality



So, I just glanced over that article, but it immediately struck me how much they place responsibility on Israel for this plan becoming a reality rather than on the Arab Palestinians and their lack of unity.


----------



## rylah (May 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Hamas fears the Emirate Plan is becoming a reality



If Hamas already talks about it, then it's going much quicker than I imagined.

This is symbolic of how the notion actually reaches mainstream discourse.
Thank You for the good news, this was an inspiring surprise.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 27, 2018)

[ How is this for a solution? How similar is it to the Emirates idea?  ]


The New State Solution: Turning Gaza Into an Opportunity for Regional Peace


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## P F Tinmore (May 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> [ How is this for a solution? How similar is it to the Emirates idea?  ]
> 
> 
> The New State Solution: Turning Gaza Into an Opportunity for Regional Peace


I don't know. It doesn't say much.


----------



## member (Jun 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...








*“western style institutions are the only answers”* 





*“Palestinians have had a scarcity of representative leadership and an over abundance of corruption"*“ 






*“Maybe this insistence that there be one voice speaking* 

 *for all is actually hindering progress towards peace.”*







 Yeah, that’s what it is….not enough 

 voices speaking up - hindering the "*peace process."*


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## member (Jun 5, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







​






*“A city cannot stand on its own.”*


*"It needs food.*"  

 

 

 






*". . .building materials..."* 







 *" raw materials for manufacturing..."*





 *"markets for products..."*




 *"...It has to somehow be connected * 






*to a larger distribution network......"*










oh, they're 

 *"connected"* alright !


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## rylah (Jun 5, 2018)

member said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Those are militants on a demonstration somewhere in Gaza  probably,
giving more voice to local Sheiks can balance the equation and dry out the militants as a result.

We don't have to convince anyone to give us peace, just give some backup to the local leaders who are open to build bridges as an alternative way to future coexistence.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 8, 2018)

I want to thank rylah, Coyote, Sixties Fan and Hollie and others for the comments and especially the links they tossed into the discussion. I've written a short version of a white paper for this idea of Palestinian City State Emirates connected to Arab neighbors and Israel with a commerce super-hiway.  I'm expanding it into a journal article with the references and concepts from the OP and other "alternate" solutions that reflect the actual Palestinian preference for local autonomy and not a "unified federal type government".  

When any of these fruits result in publication -- I'll let you know. Have 3 journals in mind -- but would appreciate other suggestions for the right place to present it. 

One thing I've uncovered is the amazing past history of trade in the Holy Land and Levant. I've been fascinated in how this idea is really "Back to the Future". If you search "holy land (or Levant) ancient trade routes" on Youtube or Bing you'll find maps placing all of Israel/Palestine neighbors in the middle of MANY ancient trade corridors. The parallels to this modern concept are just "book length" writing that would just have to be briefly mentioned in a journal length article.


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## rylah (Aug 8, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> I want to thank rylah, Coyote, Sixties Fan and Hollie and others for the comments and especially the links they tossed into the discussion. I've written a short version of a white paper for this idea of Palestinian City State Emirates connected to Arab neighbors and Israel with a commerce super-hiway.  I'm expanding it into a journal article with the references and concepts from the OP and other "alternate" solutions that reflect the actual Palestinian preference for local autonomy and not a "unified federal type government".
> 
> When any of these fruits result in publication -- I'll let you know. Have 3 journals in mind -- but would appreciate other suggestions for the right place to present it.
> 
> One thing I've uncovered is the amazing past history of trade in the Holy Land and Levant. I've been fascinated in how this idea is really "Back to the Future". If you search "holy land (or Levant) ancient trade routes" on Youtube or Bing you'll find maps placing all of Israel/Palestine neighbors in the middle of MANY ancient trade corridors. The parallels to this modern concept are just "book length" writing that would just have to be briefly mentioned in a journal length article.



Looking for words to express my amazement and appreciaton...
You have convinced me that sharing practical alternatives on the internet can find open ears and bear fruits of constructive action. More than that it's heartwarming when people are allowing themselves to think out loud, outside the box - for the well being of all sides.

Hope You enjoy the efforts, and expect to read it as soon as available.


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## rylah (Aug 8, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> When any of these fruits result in publication -- I'll let you know. Have 3 journals in mind -- but would appreciate other suggestions for the right place to present it.



I had all kind of suggestions  when I first responded, but deleted them.
Because from my experience it's important to let oneself first finish capturing as much as possible without editorial judgment, or outside opinions. But that's me.

If You need to reach people in Israel, translation of Hebrew - say freely.


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## Linkiloo (Aug 8, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> I want to thank rylah, Coyote, Sixties Fan and Hollie and others for the comments and especially the links they tossed into the discussion. I've written a short version of a white paper for this idea of Palestinian City State Emirates connected to Arab neighbors and Israel with a commerce super-hiway.  I'm expanding it into a journal article with the references and concepts from the OP and other "alternate" solutions that reflect the actual Palestinian preference for local autonomy and not a "unified federal type government".
> 
> When any of these fruits result in publication -- I'll let you know. Have 3 journals in mind -- but would appreciate other suggestions for the right place to present it.
> 
> One thing I've uncovered is the amazing past history of trade in the Holy Land and Levant. I've been fascinated in how this idea is really "Back to the Future". If you search "holy land (or Levant) ancient trade routes" on Youtube or Bing you'll find maps placing all of Israel/Palestine neighbors in the middle of MANY ancient trade corridors. The parallels to this modern concept are just "book length" writing that would just have to be briefly mentioned in a journal length article.


Brilliant. It is great to see some constructive contributions to this topic. One gets tired of the rantings of the same old same olds', unnable to address the real issues. I note you thanked the people who I believe to be the constructive ones.


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## rylah (Aug 8, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> One thing I've uncovered is the amazing past history of trade in the Holy Land and Levant. I've been fascinated in how this idea is really "Back to the Future". If you search "holy land (or Levant) ancient trade routes" on Youtube or Bing you'll find maps placing all of Israel/Palestine neighbors in the middle of MANY ancient trade corridors. The parallels to this modern concept are just "book length" writing that would just have to be briefly mentioned in a journal length article.



Like the Perfume trade route?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2018)

How would this differ from bantustans?


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## rylah (Aug 8, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> How would this differ from bantustans?



City states and emirates are independent, and are not based on skin color.
Jews should be allowed to live in the Emirates naturally as well.

It has nothing in common with bantustants except for a small territory per a sovereign, as well because it comes directly from Arab culture and modern practice of the most prosperous and stable middle eastern states.

Would You call Monaco a bantustan?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2018)

rylah said:


> Why would You want Palestinian Arabs be left out of this joint regional development?


Only 1/3 of Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza.

Are we trying to solve the Palestinian's problems or Israel's?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...





flacaltenn said:


> Question would be for what valid REASONS can ANY of the nations connected to this --- slam the doors?


Gaza is under complete blockade. The West bank less so but still under complete control. Israel controls the walls and doors. That would have to change.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


OK, but the Bethlehem governorate, for example, has 2/3 of its territory walled off from its control. Would that territory be returned?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > And BTW they have self government and they have access to trade routes. How do you think they import and export goods? Using magic Aladdin's lamp?
> ...





flacaltenn said:


> But here's the deal. In another 50 years, these major Pali areas will be totally cut off from one another, turned into festering ghettos and become volatile beyond belief if Israel continues to strangle them a hectare at a time. HOW LONG you want to endure that process?


Thank you, and that has always been Israel's policy. That has to change or things will continue to get worse.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 8, 2018)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > When any of these fruits result in publication -- I'll let you know. Have 3 journals in mind -- but would appreciate other suggestions for the right place to present it.
> ...



Really appreciate it. This discussion really sparked me to get to the general public and try to "move things" in a more constructive direction. One of things from this thread that was really valuable in making the case for "creative thinking" on this standoff was the link to the article where Abbas was "threatened" with the Palestinian Emirates solution. That alone won't get him thinking. But if there is a huge carrot attached to the stick -- it might. 

I'm fully prepared to ask for help. LOL.... Maybe in PM tho as this develops...


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 8, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Why would You want Palestinian Arabs be left out of this joint regional development?
> ...



You're not thinking this through. The OTHER 2/3 of "palestinians" live in more WRETCHED conditions in the neighboring Arab states. It would HIGHLY in the interests of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon to TRADE those squalid bilighted refugee camps for parcels of land ADJACENT to this trade corridor. Thus ADDING land to the deal that Palestinians NEVER had control of. Perhaps they MIGHT get a BETTER deal if the entire neighborhood was motivated to participate in this deal..


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## flacaltenn (Aug 8, 2018)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I've uncovered is the amazing past history of trade in the Holy Land and Levant. I've been fascinated in how this idea is really "Back to the Future". If you search "holy land (or Levant) ancient trade routes" on Youtube or Bing you'll find maps placing all of Israel/Palestine neighbors in the middle of MANY ancient trade corridors. The parallels to this modern concept are just "book length" writing that would just have to be briefly mentioned in a journal length article.
> ...



Exactly.  And here's the tragedy of how it all ended. It ended when the French, British, and Russians met for tea and divided up the Ottoman Empire spoils. THAT is why the whole neighborhood is now isolated kingdoms and states. That rough handedness EXAGGERATED the differences in the peoples of that area and made them nationalists dependent more on their governments than on economic success and prosperity...


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## Linkiloo (Aug 9, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Aren't you forgetting the element of irrationality that is common though in the matter of the Palestinians and Israel? There is little logic or real desire to improve the conditions of the Palestinians. This is about religious dogma and power. Do you think anyone can be persuaded with logic?


----------



## rylah (Aug 9, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Why would You want Palestinian Arabs be left out of this joint regional development?
> ...



So? 
Both.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 9, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Palestine's main money maker has always been the export of agricultural products. How will that work under this system?


----------



## rylah (Aug 9, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Of course Abbas is threatened, of course Hamas are threatened - their status and financial wellbeing is a function of prolonging the conflict.
In this context, carrots themselves have to come with their own stick, but that's if the conversations is with Hamas and PA.

In the case of Emirates there's a need to establish connections with the leaders of the different tribes among the Arabs on the ground, it can be naturally done by representatives of the local communities themselves. It's not a 2 year process, but it also didn't start
yesterday, and the whole idea wouldn't be presented if there wasn't already a working medium to rely upon.

In my opinion there should't be any special carrots, it's a regional development project, for stability, trade, progress and coordination in which the interested should participate.
Once it's treated like so, everything can be put in practical terms and perspective.
Regional stabilization (including between Arab states), trade, jobs and development of infrastructure are the carrot itself.

Emirates can become trade centers, or roads can be built around those communities. It doesn't take too long to build a road. The beautiful thing is that this way the regional players are measured not by the amount of loud propaganda, but according to their development of, coordination with and investment into the region.

Both are independent approaches, while the development of both promotes each other.


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## rylah (Aug 9, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



No, it was trade of goods from around the globe, agricultural product was just one, those who produced it were the poorest and weakest, difficult to call it a _*"money maker"*_

Q. What does Monaco do?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 9, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Palestine had a positive balance of trade. Better than many countries in the world. Sure, Palestine exports furniture and fixtures, clothing and accessories, but mostly agricultural products.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 9, 2018)




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## rylah (Aug 9, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You forget that it wasn't an independent trade, it was a chain, regulated by bigger empires.
That was Your_ "money maker", _not the agriculture itself, it barely supplied the local simple people.
Look up the Perfume trade route:


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## rylah (Aug 9, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


>



Some grow partially their own, all of them import.
*Q. Which country today is not dependent on another for constant supply of food?*
*    Don't Ramallah and Gaza already export for decades?*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 9, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Indeed, that is the neoliberal model that is being imposed on countries all over the world.


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## rylah (Aug 9, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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This is the first time I hear of this term, from a short read it says it's a western term, has changed its' meaning  a couple of times among different people. Not all western terms are relevant to the middle eastern societies.

How is this relevant?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 9, 2018)

rylah said:


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In this case I am talking about food security. A people must have control of their food sources. Palestine used to export food. Now it imports food. How and why did that happen?

Control oil and you can control countries. Control food and you can control people ~ Henry Kissenger

This is explained fairly well in the video I posted. Perhaps you should watch it again with these thoughts in mind.


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## rylah (Aug 9, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Palestine always imported and circulated goods from around the world.
Israel imports from Gaza among many.


Q. When one uses the "control of food", do You imagine a bubble where there's no import of food? Show me an example of an economy that works like that.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 10, 2018)

rylah said:


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Straw man.


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## rylah (Aug 10, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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I think You've got entangled in self contradiction.
Address that first before attempting to engage in a conversation.

If You still can't bring up an example , then You don't know what You're talking about.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 10, 2018)

rylah said:


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Irrelevant question.


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## rylah (Aug 11, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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More like another evident failure at argument against the Emirate idea.

You've attempted to derail the thread and now shut the conversation because facts don't sing that song. The question is more than relevant - You've made the claim, now prove it.


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## rylah (Aug 11, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Bethlehem is not discussed.
Although Dr. Kedar does mention surrounding villages to be incorporated into the Emirates.
It depends on the local leaders, tribal distribution, and their own acceptance of others.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2018)

rylah said:


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There are a lit of places not mentioned. What will happen to them?


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## rylah (Aug 11, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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Dr. Kedar only has the beginning of an actual plan. His major contribution to this idea is RATIONALE for not expecting the Palestinians to organize a NATIONAL govt and to prefer a more "bottom up" localized govt control. He's entirely correct on this analysis and he lists all the reasons WHY it's been a problem for "Palestinian Unity". Even the current LEADERS of Gaza and West Bank KNOW this is true.

He tossed out a general plan for "city centers" and made a map. Not very much past that. But he DID allude to connectivity between the centers and the neighboring settlements. And called for more roads to be SHARED between Palis and Israelis to MAKE those connections.

The PROBLEM IS -- Dr Kedar has not made a lot of headway because he has a GENUINE bias towards the best interests of Israel. He says so in his proposals. And by doing that - he jettisoned his credibility as a "peace-maker". AND branded the City State idea as "an Israeli" plan. 

In reality -- you DO need to include more autonomous Pali cities and settlements (like Bethlehem)  to make this work. And you DO need to worry much MUCH MORE about the connectivity between them..  *EVEN the POTENTIAL connectivity between these autonomous governing areas in the West Bank and Gaza - which Kedar  mostly ignores. * When Gaza is READY to govern in a way where that connectivity CAN be established. The highway should be visible to the Gazans from the Rafah gate at Egypt. A reminder of what they COULD have without Hamas as THEIR "autonomous govt".

What I'm proposing not only expands the charter for autonomy to more of Pali living centers, but it ADDS connectivity of those places to the whole Levant neighborhood. With buy-ins from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon including help in constructions and infrastructure for a trade route which places the Palestinians in the smack middle of it all. WITHOUT major compromises to the security of Israelis. Possibly including a bit more LAND from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon that "Palestine" never expected to have. This eventually could repair some of the great damage done by the former "empires" that ruined the connectivity and commerce in that region. So when there is a stable Iraq and Syria without a huge Iranian proxy presence -- these also could become a trading zone partners that boost the opportunies and economic dreams of every baker, shoemaker, farmer, and clothing maker in the region.

Israel as well could elect to trade on this route and connectivity. Largely up to them what access they are comfortable with providing.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2018)

rylah said:


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Fabulous Rylah. A lot of insight Dr. Kedar has that I lack. *I now understand WHY he choose those "emirates" based on his better understanding of the ACTUAL tribal backgrounds of those true Palestinians.* Makes sense. Except that NEW allegiances and family ties have been established since 1948 in addition to the ANCIENT tribal ties that should be recognized. And he's COMPLETELY correct that this is the "PROBLEM SOLVING" approach to make a lasting peace with the Palestinians. You just have to get the neighboring countries to ASSIST and give them incentives for donating land and infrastructure to tie all that together. And NOT make it solely Israel's sole responsibility for CREATING it..


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## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2018)

rylah said:


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Since it's your thread Coyote and your interest, here is info in the last pages that should be very interesting to you..


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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I still see bantustans living off of foreign aid. And I see nothing for the majority of Palestinians who do not live in the West Bank and Gaza.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2018)

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Then you're not listening with both ears. I talked about the refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon and how these 2 countries who have NEVER addressed their "palestinian gulags" would be encouraged to swap their refugee camps for NEW LAND adjacent to the Trade corridor. New self-governed land that was NEVER before on the peace negotiation table in which these folks could UNIFY with the occupied territority Palis. . Plenty of incentives in the plan for those countries to DO SO and rid themselves of the blight and oppression that they are imposing on the "other Palestinians" that you CLAIM you care about.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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So you want other countries to make up for what Israel has stolen?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2018)

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So you want those walled and isolated prison camps to REMAIN?     

Cool the rhetoric down. It helps NOTHING to be achieved or resolved. 

YES -- I want the immediate neighbors INVOLVED and INVESTED in the Palestinians MORE than Israel is involved and invested in a solution. THat's common sense. And the NEW land is NOT because Israel stole anything from them. It's to create a FUNCTIONAL and prosperous area for them to be re-united.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2018)

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Gaza right now is a patently FAILED state. Need to avoid increasing the failures in this arena..


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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True, but that is because Israel has stolen, bombed, and bulldozed their stuff.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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You really truly don't care about Palestinians -- do you? Don't think you understand this situation all that much. Because you're NOT offering any pretense of solving ACTUAL problems. *You're simply here to protest against the very existence of Israel.* And THAT boat me lady has sailed long ago... You're virtually irrelevent to reducing any hardships and suffering in that region..


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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Nice deflection.

How is this* not *a bantustan solution?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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I am here merely to promote Palestinian rights. How can Palestinian rights threaten the existence of Israel?


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## Shazoomx4 (Aug 12, 2018)

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What is Palestinian rights by your eyes?


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## Shazoomx4 (Aug 12, 2018)

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It is not the real story


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


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What is incorrect?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2018)

*Lemme just interject here. THe subject of this thread is "the Palestinian Emirates Solution".  Because we want every thread to be different -- if anyone wants to argue the history of the situation --- as has been done in this forum 100 times or more already -- take that discussion to a NEW thread. Or one that is kept in the "sticky section" (at the top of the forum listings)  on the history of the conflict. *


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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The standard list of universal rights.

The right to self determination without external interference.
The right to independence and sovereignty.
The right to territorial integrity.
Nothing special.


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## Shazoomx4 (Aug 12, 2018)

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I was fine with it if it has not come and overridden my standard rights


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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Israel does not have the right to violate the rights of the Palestinians. The plan in the OP would violate all of them.


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## Shazoomx4 (Aug 12, 2018)

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If they want to take the right of me, I have the right to not give them this option...


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2018)

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Equal rights for the Palestinians will not deny the rights of the Jews.


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## Shazoomx4 (Aug 12, 2018)

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Yes, it is, It means full control all over 67 lines and more, It means more wars for Israel, It means Gaza 2 just much bigger and closer to the center of Israel, It mean Nitghmear or death and kills in Israel...

While this Palestinians keeps behaving like they do Isreal cannot allow to itself this death bath...


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## Hollie (Aug 12, 2018)

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Your hurt feelings are your own to deal with. 

The Emirates Solution has a number of positive atttrubutes but ultimately has some likely, unresolvable flaws. One of which is the core solution of establishing many tribes as governing bodies for the various city-states. I think history is pretty clear that tribal rivalries tend to lead to hostilities as we see is the case with Hamas and Fatah. We saw those tribal rivalries emerge after the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. We see that dynamic of Islamic clerics and their tribes seeking power played out across the Islamist Middle East.


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## Coyote (Aug 12, 2018)

Shusha said:


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Israel is the one decisively in control of the region and by far the greater military and political power.  If they can ignore international law and take Jerusalem in entirety then they clearly can take on the role of greater responsibility and should.  The lack of unity is exactly why a solution like this might be better.  Can you force unity on people who’s loyalties and ties might be more regional then national and national leadership is defined by corruption?


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## Coyote (Aug 12, 2018)

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Shazoom, how would an emeritus solution effect your rights?


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## Dogmaphobe (Aug 12, 2018)

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The loyalty involved is not based upon region, but upon blood.

The two overlap to some degree, but Palestinians are very inbred and clan supersedes all else.


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## Shazoomx4 (Aug 12, 2018)

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Dogmaphobe said:


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My


Coyote said:


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Well, my right is to be safe...
So it effect this right


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## Coyote (Aug 12, 2018)

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In what way?  What alternative would you suggest?


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## Coyote (Aug 12, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


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Out of curiosity, do you think an emeritus so,Union might be viable?


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## Dogmaphobe (Aug 12, 2018)

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Might be, yes.


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## Shazoomx4 (Aug 12, 2018)

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First, they have to show that they want peace and not war


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2018)

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I don't think the Palestinians will accept a bantustan solution.


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## Coyote (Aug 13, 2018)

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Unlike the Bantustans no Palestinians would be foeced to live there, no forced population transfers.  They would autonomous like the Vatican I would think.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2018)

Coyote said:


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The Palestinians are being forced into the bantustans.


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## Dogmaphobe (Aug 13, 2018)

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They are being relocated to South Africa? 

Damn, and here nobody told me!!!


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## Coyote (Aug 13, 2018)

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How?


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## Coyote (Aug 13, 2018)

TInmoore...the Palestinians DO have problems uniting behind representative leadership...do they not?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2018)

Coyote said:


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You have been watching the process for decades but probably did not understand the concept. We hear regularly that Israel has destroyed a village. Israel destroys food, water, and shelter. Can people survive out in the sand without food, water, and shelter? Of course not, and the only places that Israel allows these things is in the bantustans.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2018)

Coyote said:


> TInmoore...the Palestinians DO have problems uniting behind representative leadership...do they not?


Indeed, but that would require a whole new thread.


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## Dogmaphobe (Aug 13, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> You have been watching the process for decades but probably did not understand the concept. We hear regularly that Israel has destroyed a village. Israel destroys food, water, and shelter. Can people survive out in the sand without food, water, and shelter? Of course not, and the only places that Israel allows these things is in the bantustans.




Who is the "we" in question?  It sounds like you have been receiving nothing but one-sided accounts. 

I do think your idea of shipping all the Palestinians to South Africa is brilliant, though.  Talk about problem solved!


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## Mindful (Aug 18, 2018)

(Is 

still ongoing)


The British got the legal *Mandate* to ‘baby-sit’ Palestine [the region; it was and still is *a geographic PLACE!*] till the two peoples here:-the Palestinian Jews, and the (Syrian) Arabs each got their Emirate here under the British Empire Flag. The British started the process in 1920, but ‘became confused’ by the Arab (religious) riots and Arab inducted deaths (from 1929 onwards), that created the anarchy here, that the British could not control.
The two major* leaders *of the two people -Chaim *Weizmann *for the Jews [called the Yishuv, then], and prince *Faisal*ibn Hussein of the Hashemite religious family-that was in charge of Mecca !, had meet, corresponded and both in Paris and near Aqaba (1916–1922), and has an agreement to divide up the Palestine region. The agreement (that was later supported by the British Empire, the Paris Peace talks and legalized by the League of Nations) was clear:- the Arabs, under the three brothers of the Sharif [king] Hussein would get the triangle of Mecca, Damascus and Baghdad as their new Chalifat (Arab Muslim Kingdom), and this included the East Palestine region. (about 70% of Palestine).
The Jews would get the West.
The British minister Winston Churchill, (1922)- while he was drunk!! gave away East Palestine to Abdullah ibn Hussein as his Kingdom when the FRENCH were forcing Faisal out of his Damascus Kingdom [he went to Baghdad]. This was both ILLEGAL, and stupid.
So, now, the Arabian Bedouin (the Hashemites) have taken the land that was to be (Syrian) Palestinian!
The Palestinians could have had their STATE -in East Palestine from 1922, but it was given to an outsider.
So, now, the Palestinians ‘dislike’ [or hate], the Hashemites, they have lost their place in Palestine and the Jordan King will not have any Palestinians in his kingdom-to protect himself.

https://www.quora.com/Why-doesnt-Jordan-create-a-palestinian-state-Wasnt-part-of-palestine-in-Jordan


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## rylah (Aug 19, 2018)

Hollie said:


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The tribal disputes of Iraq are no different than tribal disputes in Syria or Gaza.
It's when the many tribes are forced into unity of one government, that an additional level of rivalries is introduced into the equation.

When tribes are given their autonomy the govt of such a state enjoys the most popular legitimacy and cooperation, because tribes that naturally didn't live together are not forced upon each other.

Centralization in the Arab world only enforces the boundaries of tribalism, while tribal autonomy allows for less friction and cooperation.
This way a confederation of Emirates is a better alternative than Syria or Iraq.


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