# What happened to America?



## DwynR (Sep 14, 2009)

\What happened to America?

In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy? 
	 From there lets talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems weve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras together we stand united we fall or one for all, all for one, both of which have been forgotten. 
	Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, alone we stand, divided we fall. Choke on that.


----------



## RodISHI (Sep 14, 2009)

You asked "What happened?" IMHO. It is a combination of many things. The largest problem is people started selling out themselves and others. Not only politicians but the people themselves became complacent believing they could force one another into their own precepts and ideas. People became lazy and gave themselves over. Parents got so busy making that almighty dollar that they let society dictate what their children would be when they grew up. For many it became more important to have their children dressed in designer clothes, cell phones, computers and such than pay for basic necessities such as a home and spend time in that home with those children you helped bring into the world. 

Many people never grew up themselves and yet they brought children into the world then skipped on the parental responsibility of taking care of those children and teaching them. It was easier for them to keep partying down and to let society take care of their brats and hope for the best. 

While corporations expanded globally the people never looked into the future of what their retirement dollars would be actually paying for. They had no clue that those companies would expand into other countries and then turn around and dump them and their neighbors. In their own greed to get an extra buck added into their own 401k's and retirement accounts they missed what was happening and getting ready to head their way. 

Fast food and convenience has been a major goal for many. How many people eat a whole meal that is prepared at home? Do you realize how much junk food most children are fed these days? Real food is very hard to come by. Surely you have heard that saying "You are what you eat". Can you raise a child on junk food and expect them to develop properly? I don't think you can. Chemical additives inhibit growth. The people near us that have the smartest children fed them real food and home schooled their children. The ones that let societies effective advertising help determine what their children would eat, be taught and wear has children that are now having the most problems. 


That standing together depends on where you stand.


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm not a religious person but I believe that the repeal and/or abandonment of Sunday Blues Laws have had as much do (or more) with the break down of civility as anything else.


----------



## HUGGY (Sep 14, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous &#8216;Bush Administration&#8217; or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there let&#8217;s talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems we&#8217;ve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras &#8220;together we stand united we fall&#8221; or &#8220;one for all, all for one,&#8221; both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, &#8220;alone we stand, divided we fall.&#8221; Choke on that.



About 50 years ago there was a tv show called "I love Lucy" I was the most popular show for several years.  It was also one of the first live sit coms.  They got the bright idea to inject taped applause into the audio feed after every "joke" in the script.  Some of the jokes were funny..some were not.  What they discovered was that like yawning..there is a reflex that occurs in human beings that makes them tend to laugh when they hear laughter.  It probably goes back to the days in the cave when if you didn't laugh at the leaders jokes you got whacked with the leaders club.

Since the invention of canned laughter the american public has been trained to laugh with the tv funny or not...believe in the tv be it intelligent or stupid.  The sellers of sugar coated cereal have won.  Pay attention to the woman with the child at the grocery store.  Pay attention to the child.  The child makes many of the buying decisions.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUgbIv3IxrM[/ame]


----------



## WillowTree (Sep 14, 2009)

typical dumocrat,, first sentence attack bush second sentence as for civillity.  I don't know how they grow em so dumb,,


----------



## mystic (Sep 14, 2009)

WillowTree said:


> typical dumocrat,, first sentence attack bush second sentence as for civillity.  I don't know how they grow em so dumb,,



...What happened to America? 

Willow gave you your answer...although she doesn't realize it.


----------



## stonewall (Sep 14, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there lets talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems weve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras together we stand united we fall or one for all, all for one, both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, alone we stand, divided we fall. Choke on that.




At times in this nations history there has been radical change, like an earthquake on the political landscape. At those times civility is sometimes set aside for something else.

The homeless person you eluded to, it's hard to determine the circumstances there.

I'm not sure what 'fear tactics' you are talking about in regard to Bush.

Health Care is a serious issue and if anyone in America has problems in this regard I suggest you take it up with your State Government. That is where you should "Change" things.


----------



## Douger (Sep 14, 2009)

The military industrial complex and big pharma/Agriculture took over.....
About 50 years before the poster was even born.
Idiocy like I love Lucy and all of the other crap kept the sheep from thinking.

Dope them up, tell them lies, and keep them entertained.
 I wonder how many flag waving nitwits on this site will be glued to the idiot box for football this season ?
Then you have NASCAR.. Sport of the illiterate.
In the middle we have Idols and Survivors and whatever else the media is ordered to come up with.


----------



## stonewall (Sep 14, 2009)

Douger said:


> The military industrial complex and big pharma/Agriculture took over.....
> About 50 years before the poster was even born.
> Idiocy like I love Lucy and all of the other crap kept the sheep from thinking.
> 
> ...




I Love Lucy...

So, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## Intense (Sep 14, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous &#8216;Bush Administration&#8217; or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there let&#8217;s talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems we&#8217;ve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras &#8220;together we stand united we fall&#8221; or &#8220;one for all, all for one,&#8221; both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, &#8220;alone we stand, divided we fall.&#8221; Choke on that.



First, Politeness well get you places rudeness won't. 

Good intentions lacking? I disagree, We are always among the first in aid and generosity. 

Civility and Kinship are based on Trust and Respect. Diversity is good. Hi-Jacking other Peoples Resources are not. That man on the corner has options. He knows them well.

We all need to learn to stand as an Individual before we are of value to the group.

We need affordable health care. Applying something that is seriously corrupted Universally will only serve to expand the problem. We are Broke.

James Madison said it well, even if he was just repeating it. You need to swallow this, and I pray You don't choke on it. 



*"Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority. 

Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves." -James Madison*


Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)


----------



## Intense (Sep 14, 2009)

Douger said:


> The military industrial complex and big pharma/Agriculture took over.....
> About 50 years before the poster was even born.
> Idiocy like I love Lucy and all of the other crap kept the sheep from thinking.
> 
> ...



Wow, A real Ray of Sunshine. Everybody but You is responsible. 
Ah 2+2=5 if it's okay with you that is. Lets Give Everybody Trophies, Competition is bad. It's not what you do that counts, it's your intention. 

It's the Bullshit We buy and sell and Trade, rather than Honesty.


----------



## RodISHI (Sep 14, 2009)

Intense said:


> Douger said:
> 
> 
> > The military industrial complex and big pharma/Agriculture took over.....
> ...


Maybe Doug can be more detailed in what he is saying here. 

Responsibility belongs on each individual but also if corporates and leaders are not held to that same responsibility level the people do not have much to look forward to. One small crack in the dam left unchecked will eventually expand and the dam will fail.


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 14, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4IVAPj1nC4]YouTube - FGFC820 - Not The World I Remember[/ame]


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 14, 2009)

To understand what happened to the untied States, you must go back the the years and events leading to, during, and following the failed Confederation War for Independence...


----------



## Gunny (Sep 14, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there lets talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems weve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras together we stand united we fall or one for all, all for one, both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, alone we stand, divided we fall. Choke on that.



You mean popular is the universal healthcare agenda that uses fear as a tactic?

Go do your homework, young 'un.  And trying disengaging your ass from your head and all that leftwing propaganda you seem to be suckling on.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 14, 2009)

Douger said:


> The military industrial complex and big pharma/Agriculture took over.....
> About 50 years before the poster was even born.
> Idiocy like I love Lucy and all of the other crap kept the sheep from thinking.
> 
> ...



STFU retard.  Military industrial complex ...

Take the blue pill.  The yellow xanax is weaker.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 14, 2009)

JBeukema said:


> To understand what happened to the untied States, you must go back the the years and events leading to, during, and following the failed Confederation War for Independence...



Nah .. leftwingnutism spells it all ....


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 15, 2009)

Gunny said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > To understand what happened to the untied States, you must go back the the years and events leading to, during, and following the failed Confederation War for Independence...
> ...




You're a  retard. That only spells half of it. The correct answer is falseleftrightbullshitandcorruptppoliticiansputtingtheirownpowerandagendasbeforethePeopleandtheRepublic

Shit, I've yet to see a good president in the WhiteHouse


----------



## Si modo (Sep 15, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there lets talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems weve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras together we stand united we fall or one for all, all for one, both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, alone we stand, divided we fall. Choke on that.


What happened to America?  The desire by many for ochlocracy, and their ignorance as to why it's not a good idea.  Those who designed the Constitution were wise enough to design protection of the minority from the majority.


----------



## eagleseven (Sep 15, 2009)

Wait, so _I Love Lucy_ is a front for Colt Firearms, Alliant Techsystems, and Boeing?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m1Nubw8XJw]YouTube - I love Lucy Vitameatavegamin[/ame]


_That_ must be what's wrong with America!


----------



## HUGGY (Sep 15, 2009)

eagleseven said:


> Wait, so _I Love Lucy_ is a front for Colt Firearms, Alliant Techsystems, and Boeing?
> 
> 
> YouTube - I love Lucy Vitameatavegamin
> ...



Well it worked on you....canned laughter moron...when you started laughing along ...you lost your humanity...


----------



## Gunny (Sep 15, 2009)

Si modo said:


> DwynR said:
> 
> 
> > \What happened to America?
> ...



Simpler than that.  The strong TOOK America.  The weak have ever since tried to feel guilty about it and have legislated the strong into impotence.  The little faggots refuse to realize without us, their pussy asses wouldn't exist.  

Wherever the strong venture, the pansies follow just as soon as they are sure the strong have the wolves in control.  Then, the diipshits try to discard us.

I'd LOVE to be a bird in a tree watching all these pussies cowtowing to Islam to save their worthless lives when all they really have to do is quit selling the strong  down the literalist, relativist river and their retarded asses would be protected.  Not because we believe in their stupid ideals, but because we haven't forgoten where we came from nor the ideals that created our nation to  begin with.

Any more pansy-assed MFers got some stupid ass shit to whine, or what?


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 15, 2009)

America is basically a disfunctional nation that is on the verge of collaspe


----------



## Gunny (Sep 15, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> America is basically a disfunctional nation that is on the verge of collaspe



I ain't about to collapse, troll.  Go fuck yourself.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 15, 2009)

Trillions in debt, 

spending billions a week on a fake war it can't win,

gangs and drugs rule the cities,

1 out of 2 children born to single unwed mothers,

almost two million aborted babies per year,

homo marriages destroying the family,

1 out of 4 teenagers has an STD,

millions of illegal alliens flooding across out borders,

almost 10% unemployment and growing,

billions of our money "given" to jewish bankers and their finincal institutions,

Need I continue?


----------



## RodISHI (Sep 15, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Trillions in debt,
> 
> spending billions a week on a fake war it can't win,
> 
> ...


Since you point out these things. What would you personally suggest to remedy this situations you say are taking the country down? Should we just give ourselves over to Osama and his crew or type?


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 15, 2009)

RodISHI said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Trillions in debt,
> ...


Obama is NOT the messiah

It's going to take someone FAR more powerful than him to straighten this mess out.


----------



## RodISHI (Sep 15, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> RodISHI said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


No doubt. I think a lot of what you listed as current problems falls under the personal responsibility section.


----------



## PixieStix (Sep 15, 2009)

Question: *What happened to America? *

*Answer: ACORN, happened to America*


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 15, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Question: *What happened to America? *
> 
> *Answer: ACORN, happened to America*


America had problems long before Acorn


----------



## Si modo (Sep 15, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > DwynR said:
> ...


Good point.  The weak have done a decent job enforcing mediocrity.  Spines are needed again.  Fuck 'em is right.


----------



## Si modo (Sep 15, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > America is basically a disfunctional nation that is on the verge of collaspe
> ...


I guess we all need therapy so that our hearts can bleed, too; so that we can all sit and wring our hands with indecision worrying about 'feelings'.  That starts becoming entrenched and I may just pick up arms.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 15, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...





Feelings?


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 16, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > America is basically a disfunctional nation that is on the verge of collaspe
> ...


The infrastructure is practically  about to collapse, the president [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY"]bows to foreign kings[/ame] like a subject thereof, the American dollar is losing its value, the federation of States envisioned in the Constitution is no longer a reality, we fail to enforce out borders...

Not all collapses happen quickly. There is a precedent for this.


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 16, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Trillions in debt,
> 
> spending billions a week on a fake war it can't win,
> 
> ...




I never thought I'd say 'Sunni has a point'


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 16, 2009)

RodISHI said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Trillions in debt,
> ...




Decentralize the energy grid, per my plan. Invest 12% of the federal budget in repairing, rebuilding, and upgrading our infrastructure, build the damned border fence and make sure ICE has all the men they need, use tarriffs and my Import Quality Assurance Plan (discussed in the past) to make imports safer while also making outsourcing less appealing, audit the fed and require regular reports much like Ron Paul has suggested, pressure legisltors to close the loopholes that abuse the 14th Amendment to allow anchor babies, charge the leaders of sanctuary cities with any and all applicable crimes for helping and supporting illegal entrants, order a panel of experts to see how we can restructure our military deployments for maximum efficiency, put an end to no-bid contracts, allow people to opt of of Social Security (which, being a Ponzi Scheme is illegal to begin with), put pressure on the Department of Education to raise testing requirements and pressure local authorities to fire teachers who don't perform....


----------



## Si modo (Sep 16, 2009)

Chicken Littles.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 16, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?



liberals fucked it up


----------



## Dr Grump (Sep 16, 2009)

Fatality said:


> DwynR said:
> 
> 
> > \What happened to America?
> ...



You are so one-dimensional...........


----------



## DwynR (Sep 16, 2009)

UOTE=WillowTree;1516479]typical dumocrat,, first sentence attack bush second sentence as for civillity.  I don't know how they grow em so dumb,,[/QUOTE]

I'm actually registered republican, and have several members of my family participating in tea parties, and to say i was grown so dumb would to be criticizing your own beliefs considering most of my family are Republicans. I was making a simple post about how I and the rest of the world sees America. 

I will stand by my "attacks" on Bush, and yes I would LOVE to see civility in America once again. We are the strongest country in the world yet we're so divided. Why? There are really, quite honestly more important things going on in the world right now than immature arguments and fanatical "tea parties." Get back to work and support the economy. 

Anyways, there is  no need for you lol to the 4th power, what you say is the least bit funny and I agree mystic, I have proved my point. Also to say I am a terrorist is a BIT OF A LEAP.


----------



## Intense (Sep 16, 2009)

DwynR said:


> UOTE=WillowTree;1516479]typical dumocrat,, first sentence attack bush second sentence as for civillity.  I don't know how they grow em so dumb,,



I'm actually registered republican, and have several members of my family participating in tea parties, and to say i was grown so dumb would to be criticizing your own beliefs considering most of my family are Republicans. I was making a simple post about how I and the rest of the world sees America. 

I will stand by my "attacks" on Bush, and yes I would LOVE to see civility in America once again. We are the strongest country in the world yet we're so divided. Why? There are really, quite honestly more important things going on in the world right now than immature arguments and fanatical "tea parties." Get back to work and support the economy. 

Anyways, there is  no need for you lol to the 4th power, what you say is the least bit funny and I agree mystic, I have proved my point. Also to say I am a terrorist is a BIT OF A LEAP.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Pay off as much debt as you can, while you still can.  Puppet Masters can hide the truth only for so long. Live within your means.  Stand against corruption. Support HUD cleaning House.


----------



## RodISHI (Sep 16, 2009)

JBeukema said:


> RodISHI said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


A lot of problems are in state governments too. Loopholes for many things need to be addressed. The banking, insurance and credit industry is where we should start IMO. They need to be broken up. Certain bankers have now set themselves up in the green industry and energy industry. They did such a fine job of self regulating what do you think they will do with more money from the tax payers in these alternate energy programs? 

Illegal immigrants need to be addressed. As much I hate to say it, I like your ideas. 

The education department should be a sore subject with most people out there with their children in certain public schools. That also is sometimes a local problem more than a federal problem. Administrative cost for some of these schools out here is unreal. When children are not properly prepared for school I believe that makes a huge difference. Our daughter could read before she entered into kindergarten. She had Headstart and an aunt of mine to help her. I could read before entering kindergarten my brother shared everything he learned at school with me when he got home each day. It was like have a two year jump on everything going into school. For rural areas like we have here parents should be given an *option* of starting co-ops. I say option not be forced into one size fits all program. I also know teachers that are good friends that are sick of the teachers unions. They opted for "right to work" thirty years ago thinking that would help. It didn't. It only drove everyone's wages down. One friend came to me and asked how did you know that was going to happen. Pretty obvious if he would have even considered it before hand. 

I am with Beck on the cleanup corruption in all areas. No bid contracts should be a no, no to everyone. In one area that we contracted with the state they had contracts setup on a grading criteria. A contractor had to be able to prove ability to do the job. It was not all low bid. Low bid in many instances get substandard results. Taxpayers are getting the shaft when a low bid contractor gets a job and does substandard work. Happens all the time. The inspectors get kick backs and sign off on these jobs and a few years down the road something caves in or goes to crap. Rarely does that contractor have to pay back what they cost the taxpayer. On one three million dollar site we contracted the building front was sinking in within a few years. The cement contractor could not read blueprints. He had everything bass-ackwards. Slopes were opposite of what the prints read.

Clean up the EEO system we currently have. One thing that pissed off the crooks here was when I would not partner with them *for they could get that 20% override*. It was not needed and I sure did not want to cost the average person money. My intent was to help save not cost extra. These guys here went after me with every thing they had.  

I'd say right away put a system in place to assist whistle blowers so they are not crushed when they come forward with the information of what these crooks are doing. Most people do not want to starve while getting the shit kicked out of them for what someone else has done. For the last fifty years or more even this country has lost integrity. It needs to be rebuilt.


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 16, 2009)

JBeukema said:


> To understand what happened to the untied States, you must go back the the years and events leading to, during, and following the failed Confederation War for Independence...




Is there a reason you hate history so much, grump?


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 16, 2009)

Fatality said:


> DwynR said:
> 
> 
> > \What happened to America?
> ...


damned them with their racial equality, their child labor laws, their founding the country, their infernal women's suffrage...

gone and fucked  it all up...


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 16, 2009)

RodISHI said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > RodISHI said:
> ...



True, but that can only be fixed at the state level by the citizens of the States themselves. Trying to fix the states through federal action- I can't imagine that ending well.




> Loopholes for many things need to be addressed. The banking, insurance and credit industry is where we should start IMO.



I disagree. I think recent developments show how  massive that is. I don't thjink the banking system can be fixed until we purge the fed of those elements which  helped it get so messed up in the first place.




> Illegal immigrants need to be addressed. As much I hate to say it, I like your ideas.



Go take a shower, yo must feel dirty now 



> The education department should be a sore subject with most people out there with their children in certain public schools. That also is sometimes a local problem more than a federal problem.



I thin,k it's a combination thereof. We need to stop wasting money and effort on ineffectual programs like Head Start and end the sounter-intuitive practices of No Child Left Behind.



> Administrative cost for some of these schools out here is unreal. When children are not properly prepared for school I believe that makes a huge difference. Our daughter could read before she entered into kindergarten. She had Headstart and an aunt of mine to help her.



The studies I saw said Head Start helps for a year or so, but by the 3rd or 4th grade, there is zero difference between those who went to HS and those who did not.

I think the schools are a symptom of the unions turning cancerous and the social environment in which parents are taught it's okay to not rear their kids or act like they care. I view it as a part of the continuous failure of the US social environment that really got going in the 20's.


Congratulations, you now support a liber(al/tarian) platform!


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 16, 2009)

Vote JB into the HoR in 2012!


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 16, 2009)

If you think things are bad now, hang around awhile.

They'll get worse.


----------



## Luissa (Sep 16, 2009)

Fatality said:


> DwynR said:
> 
> 
> > \What happened to America?
> ...


and you answered his question! blaming one group of people for destroying american is what is destroying america.


----------



## Luissa (Sep 16, 2009)

my brother told me recently my lack of belief that jesus was the son of god is what is destroying america. Of course I thought we had religious freedom in this country.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 16, 2009)

JBeukema said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



*yawn*  Get some new material, huh?


----------



## Intense (Sep 16, 2009)

Luissa said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > DwynR said:
> ...



Incompetence is destroying America, that and Irresponsible Vampires. Give Bill back before Sookie gets pissed.


----------



## Intense (Sep 16, 2009)

What happened to America? What Happened to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. What happened to Federalism from the Madison Perspective?

The first assault which stunk of Hamilton looked like this.


SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled. That if any persons shall unlawfully combine or conspire together, with intent to oppose any measure or measures of the government of the United States, which are or shall be directed by proper authority, or to impede the operation of any law of the United States, or to intimidate or prevent any person holding a place or office in or under the government of the United States, from undertaking, performing, or executing his trust or duty: and if any person or persons, with intent as aforesaid, shall counsel, advise, or attempt to procure any insurrection, riot, unlawful assembly, or combination, whether such conspiracy, threatening, counsel, advice, or attempt shall have the proposed effect or not, he or they shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanour, and on conviction before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars, and by imprisonment during a term of not less than six months, nor exceeding five years; and further, at the discretion of the court, may be holden to find sureties for his good behaviour, in such sum, and for such time, as the said court may direct.

SECT. 2. And be it further enacted, That if any person shall write, print, utter, or publish, or shall cause or procure to be written, printed, uttered, or published, or shall knowingly and willingly assist or aid in writing, printing, uttering, or publishing any false, scandalous and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States, or either House of the Congress of the United States, or the President of the United States, with intent to defame the said government, or either House of the said Congress, or the said President, or to bring them, or either of them, into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against them, or either or any of them, the hatred of the good people of the United States, or to stir up sedition within the United States; or to excite any unlawful combinations therein, for opposing or resisting any law of the United States, or any act of the President of the United States, done in pursuance of any such law, or of the powers in him vested by the Constitution of the United States; or to resist, oppose, or defeat any such law or act; or to aid, encourage or abet any hostile designs of any foreign nation against the United States, their people or government, then such person, being thereof convicted before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars, and by imprisonment not exceeding two years. 

SECT. 3. And be it further enacted and declared, That if any person shall be prosecuted under this act for the writing or publishing any libel aforesaid, it shall be lawful for the defendant, upon the trial of the cause, to give in evidence in his defence, the truth of the matter contained in the publication charged as a libel. And the jury who shall try the cause shall have a right to determine the law and the fact, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.

SECT. 4. And be it further enacted, That this act shall continue and be in force until the third day of March, one thousand eight hundred and one, and no longer: Provided, That the expiration of the act shall not prevent or defeat a prosecution and punishment of any offence against the law, during the time it shall be in force.

Sedition Act of 1798

It changed Us but We survived it.


----------



## Intense (Sep 16, 2009)

Madison, The Gentleman, a True Statesman, tried to steer Us back to Our Root Core.  His Council was Peaceful Resolution through Negotiation and Rule of Law. 

RESOLVED, That the General Assembly of Virginia, doth unequivocably express a firm resolution to maintain and defend the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of this State, against every aggression either foreign or domestic, and that they will support the government of the United States in all measures warranted by the former.

That this assembly most solemnly declares a warm attachment to the Union of the States, to maintain which it pledges all its powers; and that for this end, it is their duty to watch over and oppose every infraction of those principles which constitute the only basis of that Union, because a faithful observance of them, can alone secure it's existence and the public happiness.

That this Assembly doth explicitly and peremptorily declare, that it views the powers of the federal government, as resulting from the compact, to which the states are parties; as limited by the plain sense and intention of the instrument constituting the compact; as no further valid that they are authorized by the grants enumerated in that compact; and that in case of a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the states who are parties thereto, have the right, and are in duty bound, to interpose for arresting the progress of the evil, and for maintaining within their respective limits, the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to them.

That the General Assembly doth also express its deep regret, that a spirit has in sundry instances, been manifested by the federal government, to enlarge its powers by forced constructions of the constitutional charter which defines them; and that implications have appeared of a design to expound certain general phrases (which having been copied from the very limited grant of power, in the former articles of confederation were the less liable to be misconstrued) so as to destroy the meaning and effect, of the particular enumeration which necessarily explains and limits the general phrases; and so as to consolidate the states by degrees, into one sovereignty, the obvious tendency and inevitable consequence of which would be, to transform the present republican system of the United States, into an absolute, or at best a mixed monarchy.

That the General Assembly doth particularly protest against the palpable and alarming infractions of the Constitution, in the two late cases of the "Alien and Sedition Acts" passed at the last session of Congress; the first of which exercises a power no where delegated to the federal government, and which by uniting legislative and judicial powers to those of executive, subverts the general principles of free government; as well as the particular organization, and positive provisions of the federal constitution; and the other of which acts, exercises in like manner, a power not delegated by the constitution, but on the contrary, expressly and positively forbidden by one of the amendments thereto; a power, which more than any other, ought to produce universal alarm, because it is levelled against that right of freely examining public characters and measures, and of free communication among the people thereon, which has ever been justly deemed, the only effectual guardian of every other right.

That this state having by its Convention, which ratified the federal Constitution, expressly declared, that among other essential rights, *"the Liberty of Conscience and of the Press cannot be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified by any authority of the United States,"* and from its extreme anxiety to guard these rights from every possible attack of sophistry or ambition, having with other states, recommended an amendment for that purpose, which amendment was, in due time, annexed to the Constitution; it would mark a reproachable inconsistency, and criminal degeneracy, if an indifference were now shewn, to the most palpable violation of one of the Rights, thus declared and secured; and to the establishment of a precedent which may be fatal to the other.

*That the good people of this commonwealth, having ever felt, and continuing to feel, the most sincere affection for their brethren of the other states; the truest anxiety for establishing and perpetuating the union of all; and the most scrupulous fidelity to that constitution, which is the pledge of mutual friendship, and the instrument of mutual happiness;* the General Assembly doth solemnly appeal to the like dispositions of the other states, in confidence that they will concur with this commonwealth in declaring, as it does hereby declare, that the acts aforesaid, are unconstitutional; and that the necessary and proper measures will be taken by each, for co-operating with this state, in maintaining the Authorities, Rights, and Liberties, referred to the States respectively, or to the people.

That the Governor be desired, to transmit a copy of the foregoing Resolutions to the executive authority of each of the other states, with a request that the same may be communicated to the Legislature thereof; and that a copy be furnished to each of the Senators and Representatives representing this state in the Congress of the United States.

Virginia Resolution of 1798


----------



## Intense (Sep 16, 2009)

Jefferson was much more forceful than Madison. He nailed it then, and we are still plagued with it now. 


1.* Resolved, That the several States composing, the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that, by a compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States, and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes &#8212; delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving, each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: that to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral part, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that, as in all other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.*

2. Resolved, That the Constitution of the United States, having delegated to Congress a power to punish treason, counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States, piracies, and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations, and no other crimes, whatsoever; and it being true as a general principle, and one of the amendments to the Constitution having also declared, that &#8220;the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, not prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people,&#8221; therefore the act of Congress, passed on the 14th day of July, 1798, and intituled &#8220;An Act in addition to the act intituled An Act for the punishment of certain crimes against the United States,&#8221; as also the act passed by them on the &#8212; day of June, 1798, intituled &#8220;An Act to punish frauds committed on the bank of the United States,&#8221; (and all their other acts which assume to create, define, or punish crimes, other than those so enumerated in the Constitution,) are altogether void, and of no force; and that the power to create, define, and punish such other crimes is reserved, and, of right, appertains solely and exclusively to the respective States, each within its own territory.

3. *Resolved, That it is true as a general principle, and is also expressly declared by one of the amendments to the Constitutions, that &#8220;the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, our prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people&#8221;; and that no power over the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedom of the press being delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, all lawful powers respecting the same did of right remain, and were reserved to the States or the people: that thus was manifested their determination to retain to themselves the right of judging how far the licentiousness of speech and of the press may be abridged without lessening their useful freedom, and how far those abuses which cannot be separated from their use should be tolerated, rather than the use be destroyed. And thus also they guarded against all abridgment by the United States of the freedom of religious opinions and exercises, and retained to themselves the right of protecting the same, as this State, by a law passed on the general demand of its citizens, had already protected them from all human restraint or interference.* And that in addition to this general principle and express declaration, another and more special provision has been made by one of the amendments to the Constitution, which expressly declares, that &#8220;Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press&#8221;: thereby guarding in the same sentence, and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press: insomuch, that whatever violated either, throws down the sanctuary which covers the others, arid that libels, falsehood, and defamation, equally with heresy and false religion, are withheld from the cognizance of federal tribunals. That, therefore, the act of Congress of the United States, passed on the 14th day of July, 1798, intituled &#8220;An Act in addition to the act intituled An Act for the punishment of certain crimes against the United States,&#8221; which does abridge the freedom of the press, is not law, but is altogether void, and of no force.

4. Resolved, That alien friends are under the jurisdiction and protection of the laws of the State wherein they are: that no power over them has been delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the individual States, distinct from their power over citizens. And it being true as a general principle, and one of the amendments to the Constitution having also declared, that &#8220;the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people," the act of the Congress of the United States, passed on the &#8212; day of July, 1798, intituled &#8220;An Act concerning aliens,&#8221; which assumes powers over alien friends, not delegated by the Constitution, is not law, but is altogether void, and of no force.

5. Resolved. That in addition to the general principle, as well as the express declaration, that powers not delegated are reserved, another and more special provision, inserted in the Constitution from abundant caution, has declared that &#8220;the migration or importation of such persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year 1808&#8221; that this commonwealth does admit the migration of alien friends, described as the subject of the said act concerning aliens: that a provision against prohibiting their migration, is a provision against all acts equivalent thereto, or it would be nugatory: that to remove them when migrated, is equivalent to a prohibition of their migration, and is, therefore, contrary to the said provision of the Constitution, and void.

6. Resolved, That the imprisonment of a person under the protection of the laws of this commonwealth, on his failure to obey the simple order of the President to depart out of the United States, as is undertaken by said act intituled &#8220;An Act concerning aliens&#8221; is contrary to the Constitution, one amendment to which has provided that &#8220;no person shalt be deprived of liberty without due progress of law&#8221;; and that another having provided that &#8220;in all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to public trial by an impartial jury, to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation, to be confronted with the witnesses against him, to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense;&#8221; the same act, undertaking to authorize the President to remove a person out of the United States, who is under the protection of the law, on his own suspicion, without accusation, without jury, without public trial, without confrontation of the witnesses against him, without heating witnesses in his favor, without defense, without counsel, is contrary to the provision also of the Constitution, is therefore not law, but utterly void, and of no force: *that transferring the power of judging any person, who is under the protection of the laws from the courts, to the President of the United States, as is undertaken by the same act concerning aliens, is against the article of the Constitution which provides that &#8220;the judicial power of the United States shall be vested in courts, the judges of which shall hold their offices during good behavior&#8221;; and that the said act is void for that reason also. And it is further to be noted, that this transfer of judiciary power is to that magistrate of the general government who already possesses all the Executive, and a negative on all Legislative powers.*

*7. Resolved, That the construction applied by the General Government (as is evidenced by sundry of their proceedings) to those parts of the Constitution of the United States which delegate to Congress a power &#8220;to lay and collect taxes, duties, imports, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,&#8221; and &#8220;to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution, the powers vested by the Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof,&#8221; goes to the destruction of all limits prescribed to their powers by the Constitution: that words meant by the instrument to be subsidiary only to the execution of limited powers, ought not to be so construed as themselves to give unlimited powers, nor a part to be so taken as to destroy the whole residue of that instrument: that the proceedings of the General Government under color of these articles, will be a fit and necessary subject of revisal and correction, at a time of greater tranquillity, while those specified in the preceding resolutions call for immediate redress.
*
8th. *Resolved, That a committee of conference and correspondence be appointed, who shall have in charge to communicate the preceding resolutions to the Legislatures of the several States: to assure them that this commonwealth continues in the same esteem of their friendship and union which it has manifested from that moment at which a common danger first suggested a common union: that it considers union, for specified national purposes, and particularly to those specified in their late federal compact, to be friendly, to the peace, happiness and prosperity of all the States: that faithful to that compact, according to the plain intent and meaning in which it was understood and acceded to by the several parties, it is sincerely anxious for its preservation: that it does also believe, that to take from the States all the powers of self-government and transfer them to a general and consolidated government, without regard to the special delegations and reservations solemnly agreed to in that compact, is not for the peace, happiness or prosperity of these States; and that therefore this commonwealth is determined, as it doubts not its co-States are, to submit to undelegated, and consequently unlimited powers in no man, or body of men on earth: that in cases of an abuse of the delegated powers, the members of the general government, being chosen by the people, a change by the people would be the constitutional remedy; but, where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy: that every State has a natural right in cases not within the compact, (casus non f&#339;deris) to nullify of their own authority all assumptions of power by others within their limits: that without this right, they would be under the dominion, absolute and unlimited, of whosoever might exercise this right of judgment for them: that nevertheless, this commonwealth, from motives of regard and respect for its co States, has wished to communicate with them on the subject: that with them alone it is proper to communicate, they alone being parties to the compact, and solely authorized to judge in the last resort of the powers exercised under it, Congress being not a party, but merely the creature of the compact, and subject as to its assumptions of power to the final judgment of those by whom, and for whose use itself and its powers were all created and modified: that if the acts before specified should stand, these conclusions would flow from them; that the general government may place any act they think proper on the list of crimes and punish it themselves whether enumerated or not enumerated by the constitution as cognizable by them: that they may transfer its cognizance to the President, or any other person, who may himself be the accuser, counsel, judge and jury, whose suspicions may be the evidence, his order the sentence, his officer the executioner, and his breast the sole record of the transaction: that a very numerous and valuable description of the inhabitants of these States being, by this precedent, reduced, as outlaws, to the absolute dominion of one man, and the barrier of the Constitution thus swept away from us all, no ramparts now remains against the passions and the powers of a majority in Congress to protect from a like exportation, or other more grievous punishment, the minority of the same body, the legislatures, judges, governors and counsellors of the States, nor their other peaceable inhabitants, who may venture to reclaim the constitutional rights and liberties of the States and people, or who for other causes, good or bad, may be obnoxious to the views, or marked by the suspicions of the President, or be thought dangerous to his or their election, or other interests, public or personal; that the friendless alien has indeed been selected as the safest subject of a first experiment; but the citizen will soon follow, or rather, has already followed, for already has a sedition act marked him as its prey:* that these and successive acts of the same character, unless arrested at the threshold, necessarily drive these States into revolution and blood and will furnish new calumnies against republican government, and new pretexts for those who wish it to be believed that man cannot be governed but by a rod of iron: that it would be a dangerous delusion were a confidence in the men of our choice to silence our fears for the safety of our rights: that confidence is everywhere the parent of despotism* &#8212; free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions, to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power: that our Constitution has accordingly fixed the limits to which, and no further, our confidence may go; and let the honest advocate of confidence read the Alien and Sedition acts, and say if the Constitution has not been wise in fixing limits to the government it created, and whether we should be wise in destroying those limits, Let him say what the government is, if it be not a tyranny, which the men of our choice have con erred on our President, and the President of our choice has assented to, and accepted over the friendly stranger to whom the mild spirit of our country and its law have pledged hospitality and protection: that the men of our choice have more respected the bare suspicion of the President, than the solid right of innocence, the claims of justification, the sacred force of truth, and the forms and substance of law and justice.* In questions of powers, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution. That this commonwealth does therefore call on its co-States for an expression of their sentiments on the acts concerning aliens and for the punishment of certain crimes herein before specified, plainly declaring whether these acts are or are not authorized by the federal compact. And it doubts not that their sense will be so announced as to prove their attachment unaltered to limited government, weather general or particular. And that the rights and liberties of their co-States will be exposed to no dangers by remaining embarked in a common bottom with their own. *That they will concur with this commonwealth in considering the said acts as so palpably against the Constitution as to amount to an undisguised declaration that that compact is not meant to be the measure of the powers of the General Government, but that it will proceed in the exercise over these States, of all powers whatsoever: that they will view this as seizing the rights of the States, and consolidating them in the hands of the General Government, with a power assumed to bind the States (not merely as the cases made federal, casus f&#339;deris but), in all cases whatsoever, by laws made, not with their consent, but by others against their consent: that this would be to surrender the form of government we have chosen, and live under one deriving its powers from its own will, and not from our authority;* and that the co-States, recurring to their natural right in cases not made federal, will concur in declaring these acts void, and of no force, and will each take measures of its own for providing that neither these acts, nor any others of the General Government not plainly and intentionally authorized by the Constitution, shalt be exercised within their respective territories.

9th. Resolved, That the said committee be authorized to communicate by writing or personal conference, at any times or places whatever, with any person or persons who may be appointed by any one or more co-States to correspond or confer with them; and that they lay their proceedings before the next session of Assembly.

The Kentucky Resolutions of 1798


----------



## JBeukema (Sep 17, 2009)

Gunny said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...


Seeing as you posrepped me for that post


----------



## Intense (Sep 17, 2009)

Hamilton: The Constitutionality of the Bank of the United States, 1791 

More of the Behavior that had Jefferson Alarmed.

Hamilton:  The circumstance that the powers of sovereignty are in this country divided between the National and State governments, does not afford the distinction required. It does not follow from this, that each of the portion of powers delegated to the one or to the other, is not sovereign with regard to its proper objects. It will only follow from it, that each has sovereign power as to certain things, and not as to other things. To deny that the government of the United States has sovereign power, as to its declared purposes and trusts, because its power does not extend to all cases would be equally to deny that the State governments have sovereign power in any case, because their power does not extend to every case. The tenth section of the first article of the Constitution exhibits a long list of very important things which they may not do. And thus the United States would furnish the singular spectacle of a political society without sovereignty, or of a people governed, without government.

A Required distinction here that Hamilton Fails to mention is That The Federal Government is Bound by It's Constitution. The States are bound by Their Constitutions Respectively. The State do not have the same Limitations as the Feds. Hamilton's argument is based on falsehood.




Hamilton: It is certain that neither the grammatical nor popular sense of the term requires that construction. According to both, necessary often means no more than needful, requisite, incidental, useful, or conducive to. It is a common mode of expression to say, that it is necessary for a government or a person to do this or that thing, when nothing more is intended or understood, than that the interests of the government or person require, or will be promoted by, the doing of this or that thing. The imagination can be at no loss for exemplifications of the use of the word in this sense. And it is the true one in which it is to be understood as used in the Constitution. The whole turn of the clause containing it indicates, that it was the intent of the Convention, by that clause, to give a liberal latitude to the exercise of the specified powers. The expressions have peculiar comprehensiveness. They are thought to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by the Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

Here with the Use of one Word, "Necessary" Hamilton Shreds All concept of Enumerated Powers and Restraints of the Power and Reach of The Federal Government.  This was evidence in His Own Words, that The Constitution Grants a Free Pas for Him and His Kind to assume what they wish, and hold us down.





Hamilton: It may be truly said of every government, as well as of that of the United States, that it has only a right to pass such laws as are *necessary* and proper to accomplish the objects intrusted to it. For no government has a right to do merely what it pleases. Hence, by a process of reasoning similar to that of the Secretary of State, it might be proved that neither of the State governments has a right to incorporate a bank. It might be shown that all the public business of the state could be performed without a bank, and inferring thence that it was unnecessary, it might be argued that it could not be done, because it is against the rule which has been just mentioned. A like mode of reasoning would prove that there was no power to incorporate the inhabitants of a town, with a view to a more perfect police. For it is certain that an incorporation may be dispensed with, though it is better to have one. It is to be remembered that there is no express power in any State constitution to erect corporations. 

Here, Hamilton is trying to deny the Right of States to Incorporate a Bank, unless the Feds. can, when it is clear again that The States and The Fed operate under different Restrictions. He wants to blur and deny the distinction.





Hamilton: The degree in which a measure is necessary, can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it; that must be a matter of opinion, and can only be a test of expediency. The relation between the measure and the end; between the nature of the mean employed toward the execution of a power, and the object of that power must be the criterion of constitutionality, not the more or less of necessity or utility.

From My Perspective, Fair and Just and Necessary, Not only is it Necessary to Implement Within the Boundary of Law, It is Necessary to Tailor the Law Itself to best serve Truth and Justice.  When The Law Falls short, and is on the wrong side of Justice, there is an Amendment Process, if it needs to go that far. The Structure is not Greater than It's Purpose. We are not limited by false boundaries, when in agreement, on a better way. We need merely rectify and improve through the established process. Hamilton's Argument is false. He has a Free hand, and limits that which he opposes by the rule of Law, knowing that it is flawed. 


To be Continued.


----------



## Intense (Sep 17, 2009)

Hamilton: But while on the one hand the construction of the Secretary of State is deemed inadmissible, it will not be contended, on the other, that the clause in question gives any new or independent power. But it gives an explicit sanction to the doctrine of implied powers, and is equivalent to an admission of the proposition that the government, as to its specified powers and objects, has plenary and sovereign authority, in some cases paramount to the States; in others, co-ordinate with it. For such is the plain import of the declaration, that it may pass all tams necessary and proper to carry into execution those powers.

Why did Hamilton need a Constitution at all? Obviously All Power is Implied and Justified by Imagination. Why did Hamilton need anything at all. Bring in the Alien and Sedition Acts, and It's Open Season. My question is how did He keep both G. Washington and Adams occupied and diverted throughout all of this crap?


----------



## Fatality (Oct 10, 2009)

JBeukema said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > DwynR said:
> ...



bullshit, more bullshit and even more bullshit


----------



## California Girl (Oct 10, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there lets talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems weve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras together we stand united we fall or one for all, all for one, both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, alone we stand, divided we fall. Choke on that.



Well, let's just review.....

America was not founded on some phrase (which I confess I had never heard) of 'together we stand, united we fall'..... The actual phrase is 'united we stand, divided we fall'.  

America was not founded on the principles of a 'welfare state', it was founded on the Constitution (perhaps you should try reading it to find out how we have changed). The traditional values of the United States of America are those of self reliance and freedom.  

We were not founded to be 'popular', we were founded to be a beacon of the light of democracy, a true republic, a nation for others to emulate and the envy of those who do not possess the freedom that we used to value.

What happened?  The welfare state- the attitutide that everyone who has more than you owes you. 

Your whole post is a shining example of what is wrong with America. 19 years old and you don't have a fucking clue about your nation. 

Welcome to liberal America.... where our children are not longer taught HOW to think but now WHAT to think.... to the point that they have no idea what America is.


----------



## Academic (Oct 14, 2009)

As a Brit now living in the US, each day I'm increasingly surprised by how completely contradictory the term "*United* States of America" is, because this country is so unbelievably divided. 

In the UK, as in the US, we have 2 main political Parties (i.e. only 2 parties with any chance of getting elected). But the divisions between supporters of those parties are not nearly so full of ideologically fueled hatred and vitriol. 

That 'Liberal' has become a term of insult for some (and has now moved beyond that, onto calling people Socialists and Communists, as if this is the moral equivalent of calling someone a pedophile) is something that most Europeans find absolutely shocking. 

And when I see people on the right saying the problems with the US is that it no longer upholds the principles upon which the USA were founded on, I find this confusing because this is mostly done with a 'pick and mix' approach - for example people are incredibly passionate to uphold the 2nd amendment, yet slavery was a key factor in making this country what it is, yet (I'm hoping) even those on the most extreme Right don't want a return of slavery. Do those who want a return to more traditional values on which the US was founded also want to abolish 'One nation under God'? since this was only introduced in the 1950's in opposition to godless Communism? - 

Afterall, many of the founding fathers were against the sort of rabid organised religion that prevails in the country, precisely because they had run away from such madness in Europe. 

The right wing mantra - government is the problem, not the solution - how far do you want to extend this? why not just return to a Hobbes like 'state of nature' where survival of the fittest prevails? What _should_ government be doing, if it is currently doing too much?

And the whole 2nd amendment thing - how far does this go? because I was having a discussion with a proud Right-winger, and they were absolutely categorical - the 2nd amendment says you have the right to bear arms, and infringement on this is a violation of the constitution. But then shouldn't the constitutional rights of homicidal maniacs also be respected? why conduct background checks on anyone trying to buy a gun, if it could result in an infringement of their 2nd amendment rights? why not allow guns on airplanes, in bars, and at sporting events? if more people end up getting killed, then this is just a small price to pay for protecting their 2nd amendment rights - correct?

And since the 2nd amendment originates from a stupid foreign (or any) government imposing unfair taxes without providing representation, and was put in place to try to stop this from happening again, isn't it now completely outdated, since if it came to it, no amount of guns would actually be sufficient in a fight against your government? (Unless of course the general population is able to buy F-16s, cruise missiles, and aircraft carriers to help in the fight against an oppressive government...)


----------



## Maple (Oct 14, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous &#8216;Bush Administration&#8217; or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there let&#8217;s talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems we&#8217;ve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras &#8220;together we stand united we fall&#8221; or &#8220;one for all, all for one,&#8221; both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, &#8220;alone we stand, divided we fall.&#8221; Choke on that.



You are only 19, so I would expect a post like yours. You are limited in your world experience. If health care reform was truly the object of the liberal democrats who are in power in the congress, the senate and the Presidency. They would. 

1. Do tort reform. 85% of physicians practice defensive medicine in states that have no tort reform,this drives up our costs especially on medicare. Physicians on average pay over $100,000 per year for medical mal-practice insurance which is passed back onto us the consumer in higher fees for service.
2. Open up competition with carriers, there is no reason that an insurance company has a lock on any state. Competition drives costs down.
3. Health savings plans- pre tax dollars used to purchase high deductible catastrophic plans.
4, Group small business- small business employs over 70% of Americans yet they have no group that they can join, making their insurance costs astronomical.
5. Make it mandatory that everyone carries insurance, it is estimated that 15 million Americans can afford health insurance but they choose not to, they end up in our emergency rooms and the rest of us get to pay. The poor can be subsidized.
6. Write legislation into law that insurance companies can not deny coverage for pre- existing conditions.
The libs in the government are not here to help you, they are here to CONTROL you and take away your freedom of choice.

The government resume.
Social security - bankrupt
Postal service- bankrupt
medicare- bankrupt
freddie and fannie- bankrupt
medicaid- bankrupt.

Do you really want to turn over 6% of our economy to people who have a resume that looks like that. Because I sure don't.

" A GOVERNMENT THAT IS BIG ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED IS BIG ENOUGH TO TAKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE." Thomas Jefferson


----------



## Intense (Oct 14, 2009)

Academic said:


> As a Brit now living in the US, each day I'm increasingly surprised by how completely contradictory the term "*United* States of America" is, because this country is so unbelievably divided.
> 
> In the UK, as in the US, we have 2 main political Parties (i.e. only 2 parties with any chance of getting elected). But the divisions between supporters of those parties are not nearly so full of ideologically fueled hatred and vitriol.
> 
> ...



As a Brit now living in the US, each day I'm increasingly surprised by how completely contradictory the term "*United* States of America" is, because this country is so unbelievably divided. /COLOR]

We have two main Camps, Madison Type Federalists, Conservative spending, Self Reliant, Endowed with Unalienable Rights. V.S. Hamilton Type Statists, that believe in strong Government inclusion in Our Lives. Equal Distribution, Government Control over every aspect of Our Lives. Where ever, When ever there is a problem, nothing can fix it as well as Government can. 
The Conservative distinguishes between God, Church, Society, Business, and Government, leaving to each it's own concern. The Statist' Religion is Government, whom is supposed to Substitute for Divine Will. The two camps are Irreconcilable.  


That 'Liberal' has become a term of insult for some (and has now moved beyond that, onto calling people Socialists and Communists, as if this is the moral equivalent of calling someone a pedophile) is something that most Europeans find absolutely shocking. 
/COLOR]


Personally for Me to consider Someone Spiritually Liberal would be a compliment. Material Liberal is a bastardization of the term. Socialism, Marxism, Communism, Nationalism, are different sins than Pedophile in nature. Locke wrote of Inalienable Rights as Life, Liberty, Property, add the Pursuit of Happiness, All of those Philosophies have no respect for private property.  Coveting, Stealing are Sins, Flaws, the sooner recognized, the better addressed. Nothing is Equal to Free Choice or Liberty, in comparison. Nationalization is a path traveled before, mass graves being it's end. Socialism, Communism, with the more than equal leading the show every time, while others are deprived of the fruit of their labor. Trade in cash or bullets? I choose free exchange to chains. Every time Europe screws itself I'm shocked. Ain't no crusade coming to bail you out this time, you are on your own, at least for the next 3 years.


And when I see people on the right saying the problems with the US is that it no longer upholds the principles upon which the USA were founded on, I find this confusing because this is mostly done with a 'pick and mix' approach - for example people are incredibly passionate to uphold the 2nd amendment, yet slavery was a key factor in making this country what it is, yet (I'm hoping) even those on the most extreme Right don't want a return of slavery. Do those who want a return to more traditional values on which the US was founded also want to abolish 'One nation under God'? since this was only introduced in the 1950's in opposition to godless Communism?/COLOR]

We were founded on Inalienable Rights, Truth, and Equal Justice. We tolerated Slavery, we were more focused on withstanding aggression from You, in a unified way, rather than being divided. Locke was a strong Christian, pretty cool for one of his time. Madison was rooted in him, because of the Power and Effect of His Philosophy. A Relationship with God Through Conscience, Inalienable Rights, Separation of Church and State, Nonviolent Civil Disobedience. An observer of the Two Great Commandments. Please lets Relearn what we have lost. 
The Second Amendment is for when you run out of cheeks.
Under God was added to The Pledge by it's author, a minister, and is in harmony with the Declaration Of Independence.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Declaration of Independence


 Afterall, many of the founding fathers were against the sort of rabid organised religion that prevails in the country, precisely because they had run away from such madness in Europe. 

The right wing mantra - government is the problem, not the solution - how far do you want to extend this? why not just return to a Hobbes like 'state of nature' where survival of the fittest prevails? What _should_ government be doing, if it is currently doing too much?
/COLOR]
In Truth We Believe that Government should be Secular, void of the war of the Dogma's. James Madison, "Memorial and Remonstrance"  
Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)

Our Founders were not against Organized Religion, They were against Tyranny, of the State, and Tyranny of The Church.

We begot Government by The People, For The People. We begot Government by the consent of the Governed. We want it back. As We come to realize It and Define It, We will Achieve it Again. Enumerated Powers takes nothing for granted, We support a True and Honest Government and It's Needs. We abhor Tyranny, Trickery, and Deceit. Corruption will be brought to account. You read too many Us News Reports, friend, there is little truth coming from the main stream nowadays.  

And since the 2nd amendment originates from a stupid foreign (or any) government imposing unfair taxes without providing representation, and was put in place to try to stop this from happening again, isn't it now completely outdated, since if it came to it, no amount of guns would actually be sufficient in a fight against your government? (Unless of course the general population is able to buy F-16s, cruise missiles, and aircraft carriers to help in the fight against an oppressive government...)[/QUOTE]/COLOR]
Declaration of Taking Up Arms, July 6, 1775


From The Magna Carta 1216?
1. In the first place we have granted to God, and by this our present charter confirmed for us and our heirs forever that the English Church shall be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate; and we will that it be thus observed; which is apparent from this that the freedom of elections, which is reckoned most important and very essential to the English Church, we, of our pure and unconstrained will, did grant, and did by our charter confirm and did obtain the ratification of the same from our lord, Pope Innocent III, before the quarrel arose between us and our barons: and this we will observe, and our will is that it be observed in good faith by our heirs forever. We have also granted to all freemen of our kingdom, for us and our heirs forever, all the underwritten liberties, to be had and held by them and their heirs, of us and our heirs forever.

40. To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice.

63. Wherefore we will and firmly order that the English Church be free, and that the men in our kingdom have and hold all the aforesaid liberties, rights, and concessions, well and peaceably, freely and quietly, fully and wholly, for themselves and their heirs, of us and our heirs, in all respects and in all places forever, as is aforesaid. An oath, moreover, has been taken, as well on our part as on the art of the barons, that all these conditions aforesaid shall be kept in good faith and without evil intent.
The Magna Carta 1215



English Bill of Rights 1689
That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law; 
English Bill of Rights 1689



Declaration of Taking up Arms 1775
If it was possible for men, who exercise their reason, to believe, that the Divine Author of our existence intended a part of the human race to hold an absolute property in, and an unbounded power over others, marked out by his infinite goodness and wisdom, as the objects of a legal domination never rightfully resistible, however severe and oppressive, the inhabitants of these colonies might at least require from the Parliament of Great Britain some evidence that this dreadful authority over them has been granted to that body. But a reverence for our great Creator, principles of humanity, and the dictates of common sense must convince all those who reflect upon the subject that government was instituted to promote the welfare of mankind and ought to be administered for the attainment of that end..........
Our cause is just. Our union is perfect. Our internal resources are great, and, if necessary, foreign assistance is undoubtedly attainable. We gratefully acknowledge, as signal instances of the Divine favor toward us, that his Providence would not permit us to be called into this severe controversy, until we were grown up to our present strength, had been previously exercised in warlike operation, and possessed of the means of defending ourselves. With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly, before God and the world, declare that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties; being with our [one] mind resolved to die free men rather than live slaves.




Articles of Confederation
but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage.


The Articles of Confederation

Can I park my F-16 in your garage?


----------



## Academic (Oct 15, 2009)

Intense - thank you for your detailed post. 

I don't agree with much of what you say, buy your arguments were eloquent and born of passionate conviction. My main issue with looking back and trying to return to values that gave birth to this great country, is that the world has moved on, and it is no longer relevant nor possible to return to a time when government is as minimal as possible. Doesn't mean it has to be as big as possible, but there has to be a middle ground. 

Would you describe yourself as a Libertarian?

For the record - I don't read any US press reports. The level of journalism in the  press (be it TV or newspaper) is generally shockingly bad in this country. 

Finally, I can assure you that I played no role in the British aggression towards the American colonies 200+ years ago (in fact nor did my family, since we only moved there in the 1970s).


----------



## Intense (Oct 15, 2009)

Academic said:


> Intense - thank you for your detailed post.
> 
> I don't agree with much of what you say, buy your arguments were eloquent and born of passionate conviction. My main issue with looking back and trying to return to values that gave birth to this great country, is that the world has moved on, and it is no longer relevant nor possible to return to a time when government is as minimal as possible. Doesn't mean it has to be as big as possible, but there has to be a middle ground.
> 
> ...



For me, It's not about turning back, but using the best of what we have learned, and applying to circumstance what We know to be true. I have Conservative, Libertarian, and Liberal Tendencies too. Self Reliance, Limited Government, the Impartial, Neutral, Referee. Government by Consent. A Court in harmony with Conscience. Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. 

Statism is opposed to that, Socialism, a part of the path to Tyranny. Totalitarianism is It's end. 

Good Luck to Ya. Stay Whole.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Nov 10, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Go do your homework, young 'un.  And trying disengaging your ass from your head and all that leftwing propaganda you seem to be suckling on.



You know Gunny, perhaps you have gotten a bit too far from the youth of today. The OP managed a coherent post with laudable grammar and spelling while presenting a question he found relevant "What happened" and rather than answer you insulted him. That is not a recipe for respect. 

To the OP
The USA suffers from several problems,not least of which is that public schools, as you may have noticed, have deteriorated markedly in the last thirty years. Standards of education have been dropped and a notable increase in indoctrination has occurred. 

The stock market has been driven to a bizarre state by Capital Gains taxes; because dividends are taxed twice companies try to get the most for their investors by 'reinvesting' on the theory that if the price of the stock goes up then the original holder can make a profit which is taxed only once by selling the more valuable stock. The unfortunate result is companies that swell to the breaking point and either collapse or apply for bailouts. Worse, the small investor is hit harder than the large one, for the small investor has less ability to analyze companies and know when to get out. Those investors end up the losers in what appears to them to be a zero sum game and opt to refrain from risky investments. 

Health cares costs have risen from a variety of causes and only a portion of them, such as ludicrous malpractice suits and high costs of medical degrees are amenable to government reduction. Many want to provide better health care for those less fortunate but there is a limit on what anyone can give to charity. Government aid, medicare/medicaid, probably made matters worse by inflating prices with increased demand. This is part of why so many "conservatives" oppose a public option; they see it as more government mismanagement which will make matters worse.

The economy never fully recovered from the bust at the end of the Clinton years, brought about by a variety of issue and exacerbated by the cost of war against terrorism. Official unemployment rates are climbing past 10% and many more are unreported (Clinton era rule changes) or underemployed, working in jobs for which they are overqualified because they cannot find better. 

The need for college education has gone up as the quality of public schools has dropped, and the increase ion demand, spurred further by easy school loans, has fueled an explosive rise in the cost of college, making recent graduate far less able to give to any charity as they struggle to repay  both government loans and credit cards that are too easy to gain while in school. 

The list goes on but the end result is the same; people in the US are frustrated by having spent too much effort for too little result because government 'help' is never really helpful and taxes, already at a crushing level, are poised to rise with yet more uncontrolled federal spending. You have have already experienced some of this when you received your first paycheck and realized that all the socialist taxes (Social Security, Medicare etc.) are regressive in nature, costing the lowest paid members of society a greater percentage of their income than the wealthiest. This despite the claims of the Democrats who imposed those programs that they look out for the little person. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans stand for the 'common man' rather, as incumbents they all stand for a single thing - reelection.


----------



## mdn2000 (Nov 10, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know.
> 
> Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy?
> ...



This is what you call "civility", am I to choke only on your last statement or your whole post.

You make statements that are fiction based on fact, nothing more, your rant goes all over the place and all these ideas are discussed in other threads. 

Universal health care has worked everywhere? Yes, everywhere that imports medical technology and drugs invented in the USA. Not one country has implimented universal health care without being dependent on the technology and research developed by the the USA's capitalist medical system. We have given and sold our advancements, we have educated their doctors. The fact of history is the whole world has benifited from the medical profession, the hospitals, our universities, and our drugs. All developed under a capitalist system.

Choke on that, your post was far from civil, least of all it was moronic and not based on reality.


----------



## Shorebreak (Nov 11, 2009)

Here's what happened: wealthy bankers with a vision of a utopian New World Order decided that they should be the ones in charge of building a better world. They bough newspapers and media, they donated to universities in return for controlling the department heads (and therefore the curriculum and thinking of students) and they used their influence to become appointed into the Secretary or Director position of every single department in US government. With focus on Education, State Department, Department of the Interior, Treasury, and Defense.

What we have now is a system where they get our tax dollars to perform their policy demands. That's why the government is out of touch with the people, and that's why so much of it is built under the Executive Branch rather than under the control of Congress. There is NO goal to meet the needs of the people. The goal is to use control of government to meet the globalist objectives of finance.

In order to further integrate us into a world system, to use our children as cannon fodder, and to use our labor as collateral for more debt, our education system has been reduced to a system of training and indoctrination rather than a system of innovation and perspective. 

Most people don't know how to examine seemingly unrelated issues, find direct correlations, and then apply a logic or matrix approach to understanding how our lives and government are manipulated. Just introducing the concept makes most people confused - even those who believe that they are involved and informed. They don't have the tools or education to examine prospective information and intuit how seemingly unrelated data has correlations that can only be present as a result of intended alignment, indicating a broader, unified plan or methodology.

For example, is it coincidence when the UN issues a global sustainability plan, the US Secretary of State endorses the plan in a speech at a global kick-off ceremony, and then with zero fanfare and zero media attention, the US Department of the Interior begins implementing policy changes that are a 1:1 correlation with the UN's global plans? 

That's a very simple example. Some are more complex and require an understanding of not only who the decision makers are, but also understanding what roles the players have been playing, what are their affiliations, where is the funding and/or policy originating, and what details are actually being recommended or implemented in contrast to what (if anything) is being reported by the media.

For a good example of how much we "know" vs how much is really going on, I recommend dedicating a couple of hours to reading the most recent week worth of Congressional Report, and then going to the website for various US government agencies and reading up on current initiatives and goals. Then compare to what the media is reporting. You'll soon realize that the world that we perceive (via mainstream media and news) is very different from the reality that we live within.

Sorry for the long post, but in a nutshell, the answer to the OP is that American has been deceived, our government and media have been usurped, and we've been dumbed down and manipulated into supporting either an agressive, violent, militant foreign policy, or a utopian, "big brother will save us", "somebody owes me", selfish and limited world perspective. Or something in between. But either way, we've been nurtured into a culture that is predominantly ignorant, arrogant, selfish, and unaware of who we have become as a nation. Are we still great people? Yes. Have we been deceived? Also yes. Possibly more than any other nation or culture in history - certainly in modern history.


----------



## foggedinn (Nov 13, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there lets talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems weve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras together we stand united we fall or one for all, all for one, both of which have been forgotten.
> Popular on the agenda of the world, and democrats right now is the idea of Universal Health care. In my opinion what is wrong with it? It has worked in literally all industrialized countries, with the exception of course of the United States. It is time for many Americans to open their eyes and see the greater picture. I will leave you with a simple mantra that in my opinion is the new craze, alone we stand, divided we fall. Choke on that.



You sound like someone who cares.  
Join a mainstream church.  Avoid the megachurches.  Get involved in some ministry within the church.  Meet a nice girl and get married.  Live a real life and avoid boards like this one.  They will only make things look worse.  The people in here aren't real and their opinions aren't real. They have canned responses for every situation.


----------



## Zona (Nov 13, 2009)

We need to take Merica back to the good ol days.....like in the 50's when certain people knew their places. 

Now days, certain types are getting uppity.  Hate that.  Dernit. I miss the good ol days. I heard one of them was moving in down the street.  Believe that crap?  This sucks.

I never met one, but I watch t.v. so I know everything I need to know about them.


----------



## Intense (Nov 14, 2009)

Zona said:


> We need to take Merica back to the good ol days.....like in the 50's when certain people knew their places.
> 
> Now days, certain types are getting uppity.  Hate that.  Dernit. I miss the good ol days. I heard one of them was moving in down the street.  Believe that crap?  This sucks.
> 
> I never met one, but I watch t.v. so I know everything I need to know about them.



But.... Are You Real.... Zona??? Are You Really Real???? Are You Really, Really, Really, Real Zonz?????  Or is this a Canned.... Response???? 

Tell Me You are Real Zona???? Lie if You have to!!!!


----------



## EriktheRed (Nov 18, 2009)

DwynR said:


> \What happened to America?
> 
> In the 19 years of my existence I would agree with anyone that said I know little or nothing about America before 2005, when I was 15. But things I can perceive are good intentions, of which are lacking in the America I know. Talking and even looking at pictures I see and hear about a United America, filled with civility and kinship. But what did it in? Was it the fear tactics used by the infamous Bush Administration or was it the dwindled economy?
> From there lets talk more on civility. Civility as many of you may know basically means that you show a form of politeness to your fellow people, however, it seems weve lost that all together in America as the homeless man on a cold New York corner could probably tell you.  What happened to the mantras together we stand united we fall or one for all, all for one, both of which have been forgotten.



To get a better picture of what happened you need to turn back the clock to when this asshole started becoming popular:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/ErikdeRed/279631595_b2edeec700.jpg


----------



## JenyEliza (Nov 18, 2009)

WillowTree said:


> typical dumocrat,, first sentence attack bush second sentence as for civillity.  I don't know how they grow em so dumb,,



After 19 years alive, no less.  

I've been out of high school longer than this kid has been alive.  I recall clear on back to the dinosaur age when the first Ayatollah took our people hostage and held them for more than a year, while abusing them and parading thema round.

I remember the failed Jimmah Carter rescue efforts.

I recall I Love Lucy.  The Brady Bunch.  The Partridge Family.  The Courtship of Eddie's Father.  Family Affair, Mrs. Beazley and Mr. French.  I recall Father Knows Best.  Leave it to Beaver.  These were staple TV I was allowed to watch.  

We didn't have video games.  We didn't have computers.  No internet.  We actually WATCHED those shows together as a family---Mom, Dad, 2 brothers, 1 sister and me.  That was AFTER we all sat down together and ate dinner at 6:00 pm sharp.  EVERYNIGHT, not matter what our busy schedules dictated.  

I remember when not every famly had 2 cars sitting in the driveway and Mom didn't work.  On the days Mom needed the car, she drove Dad to work, kept the car for her errands and picked him up at quitting time.  Now families have to work so hard for 2, 3, 4 or more cars and toys, plus bigger, better houses....they never see each other.

What happened is Americans lost their way.  We forgot how to do those things.  WE sit in big houses (bigger the better), SO big that families barely bump into one another, much less have meals or watch TV together regularly.  

When we figure out that bigger isn't better, when we learn how to get along with 1 car again and cut back to the basics, life will improve for us.   

I am learning that STUFF is just that STUFF.  You can't take it with you.  I have just gone frmo a 3 bd/2bath, 2 car garage house on 1 acre (for 12 years) to a 1,400 sf 3 bedroom apartment.  Most of our stuff was lost with the house and we're starting over.

Know what?  I am feeling OK about the "stuff".  That is surprising to me.  I feel == liberated.  I don't have to worry about anyone taking my stuff.  I don't have much worth taking.  

We have enough to be comfortable -- we have the basics, and we have each other and my kids and I--with the help of my better half, are discovering that it's OK to get back to basics and not need so much "STUFF".

THAT is what happened---and I learned this after almost 47 years on this planet.


----------



## uscitizen (Nov 18, 2009)

We have been programmed by the vidiot tube?


----------

