# Wind and Hot Air..



## flacaltenn (Jul 7, 2011)

Recently, there was a claim on USMB about the Loess Wind Turbine field allowing a Mo. city to be one of the first to be TOTALLY WIND POWERED. That's a pretty heady claim considering the nature of the daily production from wind farms. You can GENERATE enough energy over a year's time to EQUAL the power requirements for that city -- But you can't literally power the city from the wind farm without almost total replication of the baseline power resource. IE -- having a redundant backup of some type to rely on. 

Here's typical daily production from a WELL-PLACED Danish Wind Farm.. 







The RATED capacity for this group of turbines is 480,000 KWhrs per day. Note how infrequently the field hits the EXPECTED value of 160,000 KWhrs per day. Also note how looking at production on a DAILY basis virtually destroys the concept of "powering a city" from wind energy alone.

It gets even worse when you look at HOURLY production or MINUTE by MINUTE production.. SURE -- you might be able to accomodate these fluctuations and eek out some peaking potential for the grid. But let's not OVERSELL the utility of this as an "alternative" to anything. We don't power our computers with energy scavenged and averaged over a year. We power them with second by second grid loads. 

Here's the general information for this field:

Monthly production | Middelgrundens Vindmøllelaug



> The wind turbines Bonus 2 MW are delivered by Bonus Energy A/S. It is the oldest wind turbine factory in the world. It has delivered more than 3,500 turbines since 1980. So far, the 2 MW turbine is Bonus&#8217; biggest with a generator effect of 2000 kW, a hub height of 64 metres, and a rotor diameter of 76 metres. It has the same basic
> concept as the Bonus 1 MW and Bonus 1.3 MW. Like these, it is based on experiences from the 600 kW turbine type, which is installed at Lynetten in the Copenhagen harbour. The basic construction of the Bonus 2 MW turbine is adjusted to the rough offshore climate conditions. It has hermetically closed machinery and is cooled with heat
> exchangers. A built-in crane can assist in turbine maintenance. The state of the turbines and their output can be surveyed and regulated by an advanced control system. Bonus gives the Middelgrunden project a five-year guarantee on the blades and the gear.



You can follow the production of this wind turbine farm on a minute to minute basis at:

http://www.middelgrund.com/

Before you make claims for how wind can be used as an ALTERNATIVE --- you might want to check the link and see how they're doing up in Denmark..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 7, 2011)

Here's another Daily Production example from Vermont Tech College. A "demo" project paid for likely by DOE dollars... 

http://docs.vtwindprogram.org/reports/VTC_10.8.pdf


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2011)

No one interested in Wind as an "alternative"?

I thought wind had a huge *fan *club.  

Guess we can just scratch that one off the list of alternatives along with geothermal and hydro...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2011)

Wind is Going, Going GONE

No DEFENDERS??? 

 -- because the windy jig is almost up.

Wind and Solar Subsidies Drying Up In Europe




> Wind and solar energy subsidies are experiencing drastic cutbacks in many European nations and some places in the United states.
> 
> In a radical change of policy, the Netherlands is reducing its targets for renewable energy and slashing the subsidies for wind and solar power. It has also given the green light for the countrys first new nuclear power plants in almost 40 years. Why the change? Wind and solar subsidies are too expensive. Holland thus becomes the first country to abandon the EU-wide target of producing 20 percent of its domestic power from renewables. (1)
> 
> ...



And maybe some explanation for the "no-confidence" votes on subsidies.. 


Danish Wind Subsidies to be Cut



> In the last few days Venstre, the governing party in the Danish parliament, announced that it would be phasing out subsidy for onshore wind power in order to concentrate on other renewables such as biogas and solar.
> 
> In a press statement released on the 17th of September, Lars Christian Lilleholt, energy and environment spokesman for Venstre pointed out the very heavy burden now placed on consumers to support wind power, and announced the intention of putting a cap on this in order to concentrate on other technologies.
> *The change of emphasis comes after a year of increasing concern over the value for money offered by the Danish wind project. In May the Renewable Energy Foundation (REF) published a major study of the Danish and German spot price markets for electricity which noted that wind power was now beginning to place real strains on those systems.
> ...



Maybe it's got something to do with a source that's there for an hour and gone for a day or two.... That's NOT an alternative..


----------



## sparky (Jul 8, 2011)

> No DEFENDERS???



First off, the article i posted said 1300 residents

2ndly subsides and tax breaks drying up do not a failure make

3rd , i'm a hands on type of fella flatone, and a master electrican with a rapport in alt energy as long as your arm.  Granted, i've hooked up no cities to windmills , but i've seen what works for grid tie and stand alone residential systems

That said, I'm not about to argue with not wits waving whatever oilocracy propaganda looking to pick a fight over what they know so _little_ of , and are so _biased_ about , it would take *YEARS* for them to come up any appreciable speed of tolerable debate

You want to engage in that avenue, may i suggest you join a professional alt energy forum, where you may merrily scream your meager ascii brains out for any takers

regards

~S~


----------



## daveman (Jul 8, 2011)

The wind-breakers haven't gotten their marching orders yet.


----------



## sparky (Jul 8, 2011)

may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave


----------



## SFC Ollie (Jul 8, 2011)

From the title I thought this was just going to be about Washington in general, carry on....


----------



## daveman (Jul 8, 2011)

sparky said:


> may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave


Yeah.  Can you offer any refutation of the OP other than "That's STUpid!!"?

I've got experience in power generation, from 3kW portable units to 12MW plants.  And if the capacity doesn't meet load demand, you better come up with another source of amps right quick, or the customers are going to be pissed.  Platitudes about "saving the Earth" aren't going to take their minds off their cold showers and no air conditioning.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2011)

sparky said:


> > No DEFENDERS???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dear Sparky...

I've been doing this for 20 years. I HAVE been in professional forums (is IEEE OK with you?) and I know you have been involved as well. I wouldn't call it bias. I'd call it analysis and logic and reason.

You see those daily production charts don't even begin to qualify wind turbines as an "alternative" to our current baseline generation methods. SURE -- if you can figure out how to react and plan a large grid load with sources that are there for 15 or 20 minutes at a time --- have at it .. If you can figure out how to use that energy to create a buffer fuel like hydrogen or hydropower -- have at it.. 

But it's time to blow off (pun intended) any pretense that this technology is an "alternative" capable of providing constant reliable power. And we need to figure out exactly where it DOES fit.. 

Europe IS backing off of their commitment to wind. And I don't think it's JUST because the economy currently sucks.. We need to get serious about what remains on the "alternatives" list...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2011)

SFC Ollie:

Love that undisclosed location.. 

"""If I stand on my porch facing East I can Hit PA with a rock"""" Do they return fire?


----------



## SFC Ollie (Jul 8, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> SFC Ollie:
> 
> Love that undisclosed location..
> 
> """If I stand on my porch facing East I can Hit PA with a rock"""" Do they return fire?



On occasion....


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 8, 2011)

I like wind energy.  I've actually been researching putting up wind turbines on my property.  When looking at cost of the equipment vs kwh produced wind is way better than solar where I am.  Even so I am still looking at 10 yrs before I would see a return on my investment.


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 8, 2011)

daveman said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> > may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave
> ...



Try and think outside the box a bit.  Also, 12MW really isn't much.  You can use many different methods for peak loads.  Gas generators, batteries, grid supply, etc...  The future of power generation is not a power plant sending power to homes but homes sending power to the plants.


----------



## daveman (Jul 8, 2011)

Cimerian said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > sparky said:
> ...


Yeah, 12MW is a fair bit.  What's the rating on the typical home turbines you're looking at?  Oh, and bear in mind they only put that out if the wind's blowing constantly at the specced speed.  How often does it do that on your roof?


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 8, 2011)

daveman said:


> Cimerian said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



I think I said 12 MW isn't crap.  I've generated over 150MW myself personnelly. My main factor is the cost of the towers really.  The generators as of now could peak at 4kw


----------



## daveman (Jul 8, 2011)

Cimerian said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Cimerian said:
> ...


No, you said it isn't much.  Make up your mind.


Cimerian said:


> I've generated over 150MW myself personnelly.


Yay for you.


Cimerian said:


> My main factor is the cost of the towers really.  The generators as of now could peak at 4kw


Peak at 4kW?  Oooh.  That will run 2 and 2/3 hair dryers.  IF the wind is blowing.  Hard.

Hardly worth the money, that.  Get yourself a natural-gas fired generator with an ATS and hook it to the gas line, if you have one.  You can run your whole house and it won't matter if the wind isn't blowing.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 8, 2011)

The grid is used to balance out the load,  One power plant of any type is a poor source of power for any one city.  Demand always varies.

As long as the power is used on the grid and enough is generated by wind to cover the cities needs then as far as I am concerned it can be said it powered that city.

the unsued wind power is sold and more is bought later to repalce when there is not as much wind.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2011)

Cimerian::

If your object is to get off grid with wind -- go for it.. However, that's going to be an environmental disaster if everyone decides to have 3/4 ton of batteries in their basement. All with limited charge/recharge lifetimes. 

The wind charts for your area are already available. You know the generation curves for the turbines. There shouldn't be any excuse when you find out that you're just a highly subsidized power station that can't light your bathroom more than 3 nights a week. (At least with solar off-grid -- you can over-install and know that SOME energy is coming in the morning)

And how is this anarchist model of homes transmitting power to the grid with wind/solar gonna work?
(Answer) -- with heavy subsidies for the equipment and the juice. Seems to me we've talked our way into imagining scenarios that haven't been design reviewed.. 

Now if your neighborhood has one of those compact buried nuclear boxes -- that's a different story. We all chip in and get a guaranteed level source of juice 24/7/365.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> The grid is used to balance out the load,  One power plant of any type is a poor source of power for any one city.  Demand always varies.
> 
> As long as the power is used on the grid and enough is generated by wind to cover the cities needs then as far as I am concerned it can be said it powered that city.
> 
> the unsued wind power is sold and more is bought later to repalce when there is not as much wind.



Clearly RockPort has decided to go into the sporadic and largely unpredictable wind power generation business. It's supported largely by subsidy for equipment and favorable regulations requiring grid operators to favor it's product. The city is not "powered" by wind, but by the money "stored" from it's business. The question of how or if this works on a larger scale is a complicated one requiring better grid design and management and methods for dealing with LARGE amounts of spurious production. Clearly incentives for wind have to match with incentives for the "other" baseload providers to operate at less then their capacity as well. In Denmark, huge amounts of capital have been invested in storage mechanisms such as electric boilers that can scavenge and store the spikey wind sources. And improvements to the grid that we are not costing into this "celebration of achievement" in the US. Largely we haven't even considered paying for the neccessary improvements yet. The hidden costs are monumental. There's a reason why the subsidies and the incentives are going away in Europe. Because they are closer to approaching the limits of this technology. And the limits of the tolerance of the rate payers..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2011)

Lemme simplify that last post.. 

What RockPort GENERATED is just business news. What Rockport actually CONSUMED -- is the only relevent part of the claim. And indeed, 2 days a week or more (statistically) and maybe twice a day for hours, *they were a fossil fuel consumer * like everyone else around them. That in fact contradicts their "100% wind energy city" status.. 

But the more important bit is -- they're happy to pump this charade for all it's worth -- while leaving the grid mgrs and their neighbors' coal plant next door hanging on for dear life trying to juggle it all.. 

So when the neighbor decides that they can't rely on RockPort as a solid customer anymore and buckles to the EPA on the coal plant. They will replace it with something better matched to the ACTUAL grid needs and RockPort may get to have early cold dinners on Wednes and Fridays. And play shadow puppets by candlelight every 30 minutes til the wind kicks up..

I could dance my way thru "*The 1st Home in Tennessee to be 100% Powered by Christmas Trees*" by going around the county in early January and collecting Christmas Trees to sell to the local incinerator/boiler (biomass conversion -- very Green with the recycling aspect and all)..


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 9, 2011)

daveman said:


> Cimerian said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff?  Do you even know what a KW is?


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 9, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> Cimerian::
> 
> If your object is to get off grid with wind -- go for it.. However, that's going to be an environmental disaster if everyone decides to have 3/4 ton of batteries in their basement. All with limited charge/recharge lifetimes.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to get off the grid but that would be nice.  To be completely off grid I would yes need the batteries and generators that I already talked about.  I simply think the average American could generate enough elect per day to sell back to the util companies that we could become the suppliers instead of the end users.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2011)

Cimerian said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Cimerian::
> ...



Then it's purely a business decision. Wind seems to offer less chance of true grid independence than solar. And you have days and possibly weeks with little or no profit and a huge up-front cost.  *Last business I want to be in is something that is so heavily subsidized right now*. The market for wind is also gonna change as we reach the "saturation point" for sporadic wind contributions to the grid. The cost to efficiently mix it in will create another resistance point. Why not just buy a TON of GM?


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 9, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> Cimerian said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Well Duh.  But sorry Wind is better than solar


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2011)

Cimerian:

Here's a little inspiration for ya as launch your windy campaign.. 



> Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. *With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war* and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
> "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
> 
> "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
> ...



I - Sancho - will be right behind you Sir.. (NOT)


----------



## daveman (Jul 10, 2011)

Cimerian said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Cimerian said:
> ...


Do you?  It's a kilowatt.  A thousand watts.  A hair dryer draws 1.5kW.  Go look, if you don't believe me.

4kW isn't enough to power your home.  A home with a 200 amp service can draw a maximum of 24kW.  You're almost never going to draw that much current in the house, though, so you could easily get by with a 20kW generator.

Home Depot has a 20kW unit with an automatic transfer switch for $4,589.00.  Runs on LP or NG.  On NG, it's de-rated to 18kW.  

How much does your wind turbine that's one-fifth the rated output cost?  Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 10, 2011)

daveman said:


> Cimerian said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



How much does that 20KW genny cost to run?  Over 1 gal per hour of fuel.
How much does a wind turbine cost to run?


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 10, 2011)

daveman said:


> Cimerian said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Well now I know you are a moron.  A 200 amp service at 240 volts is 48kw goofball.  Not what it would actually draw but then again I bet you have never held a meter in your hand have you?  Go back to reading your labels and leave the real work to those who know something dingbat.


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 10, 2011)

daveman said:


> Cimerian said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Oh and to get 4 kw of wind generators it costs roughly 2500 bucks.   Like I said before though the generators are not the expensive part.  Getting the towers to set them on and wiring them in the circuit are the expensive part.  You buy your generator that you still need to pay for fuel for. you then pay to have it installed.  In 10 years we will find out who is better off.  I'm ashamed to call myself a fiscal conservative with idiots like you unwilling to look at the math behind this tech.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 10, 2011)

I checked and at full output a 10KW genset will consume about 2 gal of gas an hour.  at 3.50/gal that is 84 per day and 2,520 per month.
And the max life expectancy of the engine running the genset would be about 1 year max running fulltime.

No wonder right wingers cannot control spending and such.


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 10, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> I checked and at full output a 10KW genset will consume about 2 gal of gas an hour.  at 3.50/gal that is 84 per day and 2,520 per month.
> And the max life expectancy of the engine running the genset would be about 1 year max running fulltime.
> 
> No wonder right wingers cannot control spending and such.



When considering spending I would be considered a "right winger".  When can we stop worrying about party affiliation and start worrying about continuation of our race?


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 10, 2011)

Cimerian said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > I checked and at full output a 10KW genset will consume about 2 gal of gas an hour.  at 3.50/gal that is 84 per day and 2,520 per month.
> ...



Ohh I agree, but there is little hope for that while the sheep march in their independent manner behind their political pundits.  Which are increasingly also corporate pundits with profit in mind.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm worried about the biz sense of selling a sporadic 4KW generator back to the grid.. It's gonna average maybe 1.2KW output or about 12 to 18 cents an hour (after the power company takes their cut)  --- if you do the invertor and net metering correctly. But the truth is -- there's gonna be no excess to sell most all of the time. So the MATH is important here.

But it's not my adventure -- so I'm glad you're in charge. Just don't claim that your house is totally powered by the wind.. 

PS --- better warn your neighbors. They might object to the noise. Or maybe the neighbor might like the idea and decide to plop down one of those 2MW jobs that sounds like an idling turbo-prop commuter plane next door to you..


----------



## Toronado3800 (Jul 11, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> > > No DEFENDERS???
> ...



Sir or madam, you would think if you had been on message boards before you would know it takes more than a half hour to get a response sometime.  

I think wind has its place. As much as nuclear and coal.  Just you are so childish folks want to disagree.  Are you attempting to compel those who disagree with you to go vote?  If you were supporting my cause I would tape your mouth shut for a month before an election.  Just as Al Gore speaking on behalf of puppies could make them the main menue item at McDonalds...

Well you get the point.

Oh, and if you have a surplus of power you do something handy like pump water uphill to let it run down hill during peak hours or when the wind is not blowing.

Not a perfect system but you gotta figure in the cost of the trucks to carry the spent fuel rods to Yucca mountain, not to mention guarding it for a few years for nuclear.  Coal, I guess you could attempt an emissions capture system.  Solar has similar problems to wind but should work in Arizona..... Hydro is an environmental disaster in its own way...

What was the debate?  I just find myself wanting to disagree with you.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2011)

Toronado3800 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > sparky said:
> ...



Well Toronado -- you did a pretty good job of disassembling that list of "alternative" energy sources that we've been blasted with for the past 20 years or so.. 

THAT was a large motivator for the topic. To question the very terminology of "alternative". But MOSTLY -- it was to refute a claim that was posted in another thread that this tiny town in Missouri was entirely "100% Wind Powered".. 

To refute that, all one has to do is look at typical wind generation production charts and see that what was CONSUMED by that town was indeed a mix of various energy sources and they took the easy way out with the creative "eco" angle. 

So we generally agree that the list of "alternatives" is somewhat overstated.  I would also scratch geothermal as it is a dirty mining operation that is in many ways LESS clean than say nat gas extraction. Not truly green. But you're also somewhat misrepresenting the magnitude of the nuclear waste problem. Since an average house can be powered for a YEAR with just 0.7 ounce of nuclear fuel.. Tell me we can't handle that.. 

We can sit here and allow our energy policy to overemphasize solar and wind as the answer to all our energy needs. But I can't.. You're right. THere is a role for these as "peaker" sources. But they are not a BASELINE "alternative" for 24/7/365 worst case system design in all geographic locations.. 

Sorry you think that posting charts of the generation reliability of actual large scale wind farms is detrimental "to the cause". But I will continue to do stuff like that -- rather than participate in the normal USMB method of partisian rangling and ad hom attacks..


----------



## Douger (Jul 11, 2011)

Good morning numbnuts. My lights aren't dim.Skystream 3.7 here.


----------



## editec (Jul 11, 2011)

Turbine, baby turbine!


----------



## daveman (Jul 11, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Cimerian said:
> ...


It ain't cheap, once you figure in the lifetime cost of batteries.


----------



## daveman (Jul 11, 2011)

Cimerian said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Cimerian said:
> ...


Yeah, I goofed.  I was figuring 120VAC in.  

So now, at 240VAC, your littley bitty turbine looks even MORE pathetic, doesn't it?  


Cimerian said:


> Not what it would actually draw but then again I bet you have never held a meter in your hand have you?  Go back to reading your labels and leave the real work to those who know something dingbat.


You lose your bet.  

Meanwhile, you never answered my question, here repeated and corrected:

How much does your wind turbine that's ONE-TENTH the rated output cost?  Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

Here's a complete 6kW package, which is one-sixth of your home's 200A service rating.

It's $38,000.  

Holy _shit._


----------



## daveman (Jul 11, 2011)

Cimerian said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Cimerian said:
> ...


Yeah, the 6kW package I just found will pay for the LP gas generator and a whole damn lot of fuel.  And it'll run the whole house, AND not be dependent on weather.  

If expensive and inefficient is your idea of fiscal conservatism, knock yourself out, Skippy.


----------



## daveman (Jul 11, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> I checked and at full output a 10KW genset will consume about 2 gal of gas an hour.  at 3.50/gal that is 84 per day and 2,520 per month.
> And the max life expectancy of the engine running the genset would be about 1 year max running fulltime.
> 
> No wonder right wingers cannot control spending and such.



1 year max running lifetime?  Nonsense.  I've seen engines with over 20,000 operating hours -- that's 833 days.  Proper scheduled maintenance is the key to long engine lifetimes.  

And don't buy a gas-engine generator for running prime power (as opposed to emergency standby only).  Buy diesel.  Each gallon of diesel has more energy than a gallon of gasoline.  

And I don't know where you found your numbers.  This 12kW gas unit burns 4.6 liters/hour, which is 1.2 gallons/hr.

This 10kW diesel unit burns 0.89 gallons/hour.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Jul 11, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> No one interested in Wind as an "alternative"?
> 
> I thought wind had a huge *fan *club.
> 
> Guess we can just scratch that one off the list of alternatives along with geothermal and hydro...



Nah big man, it was not the graphs or the reasonable information...it was something else.

Nuclear has problems economically.  No one wants to build a plant w/o my tax money.  The savior for the industry will be figuring our how to reuse or sell the spent rods.  Reusing may not be that far off.  Think anyone has enough faith in that to start buying them up? Lets hope they dont pick Iran to sell them to.

Despite the mishap Ameren had with one of theirs I do support the water retention and release systems as a way of regulating power output.


----------



## catzmeow (Jul 11, 2011)

Damn.  I thought someone had finally figured out a way to harness our single largest resource of wind and hot air (Congress) to power America.  This thread is such a disappointment.


----------



## Cimerian (Jul 11, 2011)

daveman said:


> Cimerian said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Oh where to start.  First if you actually knew anything about electricity you would know how ridiculously stupid saying "So now, at 240VAC, your littley bitty turbine looks even MORE pathetic, doesn't it? " sounds.  You can do another internet search to figure out that answer I'm sure.  Second, the voltage screw up is not your only screw up it is just the only one I corrected.  Third, What are you a generator salesman? Why would anyone use a generator for power if they had any other option.  You are to short sighted and can not look far enough into the future.  How much is the fuel for your generator?  How much is it for wind/solar/geothermal?  What is the price of your fuel doing over the past 10-20 yrs?  Forth, I like that you can do basic internet searches.  Wow 38k huh.  Sorry, I'm not paying someone 28k to come out and do 2 days of work installing 10k of equipment.  I would install it in stages.  And seeing as I already have batteries(which are still not needed), and inverters as an emergency power source, I just need towers to add wind into the equation.  


So what is your generator going to cost you after 20 years and how much will my turbine have cost me?


----------

