# Gaza Freedom Flotilla Attacked, 2 killed 50 Injured - Israeli Murder and Piracy



## P F Tinmore (May 30, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx_Qj4Mefkc]YouTube - Gaza Freedom Flotilla Attacked, 2 killed 50 Injured - Israeli Murder and Piracy[/ame]


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## Marc39 (May 30, 2010)

Woo Hoo!  Good eating for the fish.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Woo Hoo!  Good eating for the fish.


you demented swine. it is people like you that make people hate jews.

i hope you rot right here on this world before you get fed to the beast for supper on judgement day.

yiverechecha vyishmerecha you sick, demented twerp


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6zo402Fm1E]YouTube - Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet - Middle East - Al Jazeera English.flv[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpo2tbzzDxM]YouTube - 20 killed as Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet[/ame]


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Why would they try to take the weapons away from the troops who came aboard to search the vessels? The only possible reason to do that is that they were insane, or that they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident. If it was the latter, they got what they deserved.


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Why would they try to take the weapons away from the troops who came aboard to search the vessels? The only possible reason to do that is that they were insane, or that they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident. If it was the latter, they got what they deserved.



Why would some fool send armed retards out to attack a civilian ship in international waters?


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## Jos (May 31, 2010)

Israel has not only shot and killed over twenty people On a ship in International waters,They also have done terrible damage to thier own Image, the mask has slipped people will see them for what they are


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> > Why would they try to take the weapons away from the troops who came aboard to search the vessels? The only possible reason to do that is that they were insane, or that they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident. If it was the latter, they got what they deserved.
> ...



Because they have a legal right to board and inspect any ship entering their territorial waters. Every country with any territorial waters claims this right, and no one but an imbecile would try to claim Israel was legally in the wrong to do so.

Are you an imbecile?


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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They were in international waters and were not going to Israel.


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## mystic (May 31, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


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I guess that shut him the fuck up.


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## strollingbones (May 31, 2010)

so was the uss liberty...hell if they can attack a us ship and just say...oppsie our bad and pay some money...why cant they attack this?


will this damage israel?  no...they will spin and twist it..till its rachel corries fault.


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## strollingbones (May 31, 2010)

yea the international waters thing....thats gonna be a bitch for them to explain ...but they have done it before...and we will end up giving money to both sides...so they can just fuck us more.


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## ErikViking (May 31, 2010)

The discussions will go on forever. Right? Wrong? Who did what? Who had a knife?

The most interesting and telling thing, to me, is this:

It is 2010. There was live streaming video footage, digatal cameras and recorders in everyones hand on those ships. Israel is now in full control and deals with the questions from the rest of the world by shutting down communications, seizing recoring devices, enforce cencorship and won't let people get in touch with the out side world. Why can't people from those ships be allowed to speak out or access internet? Why not letting anyone with a working phone call home? What harm can that possibly do Israel? Do they think there is a hidden backup navy waiting to retaliate?

"Ugly One, I am inside the prison camp - fire the missiles!"

If free speech and infromation is a threat to a nation... well that is quite telling.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2010)

The supposedly peaceful protesters are solely to blame for any and all deaths. They CHOSE to attack armed men with sticks and tried to seize their weapons. THEY alone are responsible for every death.


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## ErikViking (May 31, 2010)

Maybe I was wrong. Some people already seem to know everyting worth knowing about this incident. 
Unbiased information is perhaps overrated.

[EDIT:]
And I don't mean RetiredGySgt specifically.


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## strollingbones (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The supposedly peaceful protesters are solely to blame for any and all deaths. They CHOSE to attack armed men with sticks and tried to seize their weapons. THEY alone are responsible for every death.




so sgt it is really all about ....might makes right with you, isnt it?

the people who are armed rule?

the meek aint getting anything but their asses kicked and they deserve it......


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The supposedly peaceful protesters are solely to blame for any and all deaths. They CHOSE to attack armed men with sticks and tried to seize their weapons. THEY alone are responsible for every death.



First things first. Those retards should have not attacked the ship. Everything else follows from there.


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## AKAI SHUICHI (May 31, 2010)

How the hell do Israel kill such unarmed innocent humanitarian people in international water?

This means that Israel doesn't respect anyone in the world. This is the ideology that "Israelis" Have, They think they are superior to everyone.

"Israel" will end soon, because the world sooner or later will know the truth about "Israel" which was built on Palestinian land and blood . It will end because INJUSTICE DOESN'T LAST FOR LONG.


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## AKAI SHUICHI (May 31, 2010)

To People who think ships carried weapons:

If the ships had carried weapons, they wouldn't have sailed from Europe.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Yes.  He is an imbecile.


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## AKAI SHUICHI (May 31, 2010)

Update: 
At least (10) were murdered.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

strollingbones said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
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> > The supposedly peaceful protesters are solely to blame for any and all deaths. They CHOSE to attack armed men with sticks and tried to seize their weapons. THEY alone are responsible for every death.
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The only one cuckoo here is you, who still has an axe to grind with Israel after 40+ years.  Retired makles a good point: you go looking for trouble, you'll likely find it.  They went to be provocative.  I don't know what they expected.  Maybe coming from Europe they expected Israel to roll over just like the Euroweenies do.
Imagine if they had tried going to Iran like that.


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


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> you go looking for trouble



I think it was Israel who went to them.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


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 I strongly question the first two words of your statement.  You have never exhibited thought in any of your posts.


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## jillian (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Why would they try to take the weapons away from the troops who came aboard to search the vessels? The only possible reason to do that is that they were insane, or that they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident. If it was the latter, they got what they deserved.



I just thought I'd requote this. 

I am sorry that people died.

But if this is what happened, then it was not unexpected.

The sad part is Israel always said that after the goods were inspected, anything that actually was humanitarian and allowable would be let in.

So the point of the exercise was????

To create an incident.


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## ErikViking (May 31, 2010)

AKAI SHUICHI said:


> ...
> "Israel" will end soon, because the world sooner or later will know the truth about "Israel" which was built on Palestinian land and blood . It will end because INJUSTICE DOESN'T LAST FOR LONG.





The Rabbi said:


> ...
> They went to be provocative.  I don't know what they expected.  Maybe coming from Europe they expected Israel to roll over just like the Euroweenies do.
> Imagine if they had tried going to Iran like that.





I haven't checked for a while now, what people currently holds the pole position in Greatest Victim competition? Palistinians? Israelites? 

I think maybe the Palistinians think they lead since they refer to "injustice". Israel is clearly ahead of any European since they get to call names make historical remarks...


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

ErikViking said:


> AKAI SHUICHI said:
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Who the fuck are Israelites?  Get lost, troll.


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## ErikViking (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Who the fuck are Israelites?



Oh, my spelling mistake, but I mean the person who is a spitting image of his enemy.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

ErikViking said:


> The Rabbi said:
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WTF are you running your pie hole about?  Do Israelis blow up civilians in pizza shops?  Do Israelis send their small children to war zones?  Do Israelis lob missiles into populated areas?
Get a fucking clue you jew hating troll before you post here again.


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## Barb (May 31, 2010)

jillian said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> > Why would they try to take the weapons away from the troops who came aboard to search the vessels? The only possible reason to do that is that they were insane, or that they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident. If it was the latter, they got what they deserved.
> ...



Jillian, the shipment of aid wasn't going to Israel. Who are they to demand an inspection? Exactly when do the people, a generation of which have been born, lived, and died in that ghetto Israel created, become sovereign? That is not to be allowed? Generations more should be born, live, and die with the neighbors telling them they have to live with less water, food, and human dignity than anyone in this world would stand for in any given DAY? Any abused spouse would rise up in defiance at some point, and you would fully support them, I expect even if they were married to your brother. Why are the Palestinians supposed to bear forever more than anyone else would be expected to tolerate on a bad day? How do you support this?


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## ErikViking (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> WTF are you running your pie hole about?  Do Israelis blow up civilians in pizza shops?  Do Israelis send their small children to war zones?  Do Israelis lob missiles into populated areas?
> Get a fucking clue you jew hating troll before you post here again.



As much as it might dissapoint you and very much unlike the countries around the middle east, this here place requires no permission to speak freely.

Be it from you, a muslim or what ever person hiding his or her fear behind hate I think it is quite obvious. Easy to spot. 

That kind of rethoric is transparent to religion or etnicity.


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> ErikViking said:
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> Do Israelis blow up civilians in pizza shops?



Let's see.

Israel blows civilians up in their homes, in their offices, in their funerals, in their cars, on their fishing boats, on their farms, on their streets.

Nope, no pizza shops.


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## Barb (May 31, 2010)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to P F Tinmore again.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Barb said:


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They demanded an inspection because the shipment was going to blockaded territory. The blockade was implemented by both Israel and Egypt.  Both countries have the right to inspect the shipment under international law.  The US inspects N.Korean ships often.
Israel offered that any humanitarian goods could be shipped to Gaza after inspection in an Israeli port.  That offer was refused.
The point of this exercise was not to get goods to Gaza but to embarass and challenge Israel.  They reaped the whirlwind on this.
The Palestinians have suffered from their own stupidity and poor decisions.  They remain as they are because other Arab countries have an interest in continuing their present state.  Any Arab country could open their borders to the Palis but have chosen not to.  Why?
I'd suggest getting some information before sounding off on this again.


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

jillian said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> > Why would they try to take the weapons away from the troops who came aboard to search the vessels? The only possible reason to do that is that they were insane, or that they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident. If it was the latter, they got what they deserved.
> ...





> The sad part is Israel always said that after the goods were inspected, anything that actually was humanitarian and allowable would be let in.



That is the problem. Israel will steal most of the stuff and let a little dribble in. A year and a half after Israel's massacre on Gaza, thousands of people are still living in tents.

Israel claims that it no longer occupies Gaza. So, where does it  get authority to forbid trade and travel in Gaza?


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## Barb (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


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That does not answer my question at all. For how long should a people put up with such shit? How long would YOU put up with such shit?


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## Baruch Menachem (May 31, 2010)

Gaza lacks neither food nor medicine.   They were carrying contraband into a war zone.   They should be grateful they were not sunk.

No way Turkey would allow a ship to bring in contraband to the Kurds.

The folks in the ships acted violently when boarded by a legal authority.  You react badly when a cop stops you, you won't enjoy the result.   Ask Rodney King.

We have been reading about his thing for the last week. They were probably hoping for more casualties.  

When the ship hits port, we will see what it was actually carrying.


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## blu (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The supposedly peaceful protesters are solely to blame for any and all deaths. They CHOSE to attack armed men with sticks and tried to seize their weapons. THEY alone are responsible for every death.



they shouldn't have been attacked in the first place


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## blu (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


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they do everything you mentioned (often) but send children into war zones.


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## Barb (May 31, 2010)

Baruch Menachem said:


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So the whole "contraband" bs was, well BULLSHIT. The Israeli government now has possession, all control of information in and out, and just like any cop in the US without a camera on them, can claim any "evidence" that's expedient. How convenient for them.


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## blu (May 31, 2010)

Baruch Menachem said:


> Gaza lacks neither food nor medicine.   They were carrying contraband into a war zone.   They should be grateful they were not sunk.
> 
> No way Turkey would allow a ship to bring in contraband to the Kurds.
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and I am sure you will believe whatever the IDF says is on the boat even though they have sole control out that information with no oversight


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

blu said:


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Hallucinating again?


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Barb said:


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How long should a people put up with being poor and miserable?  As long as they want.  And in the Palis' case they have a large tolerance for it.  They could have had their own functioning state even 10 years ago.  But because of their poor decisions they followed the pedophile Arafat and then elected Hamas and now find themselves shunned by the rest of the world.
The PA is the most corrupt entity in the world.  Worse than the U.N. even.  It is a kleptocracy of the most dysfunctional order.  If Palestinians wanted to chuck them out and find some real leadership they would be more than welcome anywhere.


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## dilloduck (May 31, 2010)

jillian said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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And Israel walks right into the trap and kills them ?
An absolute PR nightmare. Aren't Israeli's smarter than this ?


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## Hollybaere (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


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## Godboy (May 31, 2010)

Barb said:


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Maybe because the people elected a terrorist organization to run things over there? If they like Hamas so much, then i say they deserve everything that happens to them. Terrorists and terrorist sympathizers are vile people and it amuses me when they suffer.


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## Godboy (May 31, 2010)

Barb said:


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They should put up with it as long as they support terrorism. Those sick fucks dance in the streets any time innocent Israeli children get blown up. They deserve every ounce of their  misery.


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## Godboy (May 31, 2010)

Barb said:


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Its even more convenient for people like you to simply state that they are planting evidence whenever they find contraband.


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## publicprotector (May 31, 2010)

This was a chance for the Israelis to obtain the moral high ground, they could have escorted the ships, checked all the goods comming off and made sure everyone got back home safe. It would have been a brilliant propaganda coup, but no as usual they revert to type.

Like the mad sick dogs that they are they race to their own undoing, their own demise, they are so rabid now that they cannot tell friend from foe threat from good intentions.

Well knock yourselves out, keep this up and you problay have got about another 18 months if your lucky. And to all the American cocksuckers out there, you know the ones who claim to be brave and free well your going to get yours very soon as well. And for all your guns and bull your nothing but a bunch of brain dead cowards. Cowards whom attack piss poor countries who cannot fight back. Cowards who cannot keep tens of millions of illegals out of their own country.

America, home of the big fat slobs, home of the brain dead, home of the fuck you as long as I'm getting some. What a shame that a nation that showed great potential was brought down not by its enemies but by its own dumb fuck people. Yall have a nice day now.


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## CMike (May 31, 2010)

It was a staged pr event.


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## Liability (May 31, 2010)

Jos said:


> Israel has not only shot and killed over twenty people On a ship in International waters,They also have done terrible damage to thier own Image, the mask has slipped people will see them for what they are



And under the mask, what do we see?

Oh NOSIES!  Itz da Jooooooz!


Listen up, knucklehead.  The "flotilla" was DESIGNED to provoke a response.  And now, predictably, having garnered EXACTLY the response they wanted, the propagandists behind this fascade are trumpeting the "alarm" that those "Joooooooooz" are AT IT AGAIN.

Get it through your freakin' thick skulls.  The blockade was put into place for good reason.  There was also apparently very good reason to believe that it wasn't just "humanitarian aid" that was on those ships.  It was, we now have reason to believe, weaponry and ammo.

Get over yourselves.  OF COURSE Israel is gonna protect itself.

The stupid bastards who were trying to run the blockade should have known what was gonna happen to them.  

Sometimes if you play with the bull you get the horns.  

Screw them

And the present Administration here in America ought to be fully ashamed of itself for cutting Israel loose like it is doing.  The Obama Administration is a disgrace.


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

Liability said:


> (...)
> Sometimes if you play with the bull you get the horns.
> (...)



Exactly.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

publicprotector said:


> This was a chance for the Israelis to obtain the moral high ground, they could have escorted the ships, checked all the goods comming off and made sure everyone got back home safe. It would have been a brilliant propaganda coup, but no as usual they revert to type.



Israel had offered to do just that.  The flotillistas refused.
So much for your information. And Heil Hitler to you too.


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## Hollybaere (May 31, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Maybe because the people elected a terrorist organization to run things over there? If they like Hamas so much, then i say they deserve everything that happens to them. Terrorists and terrorist sympathizers are vile people and it amuses me when they suffer.



Oh yes but, don't bother to mention that Hamas was created by Israel to undermine the PLO.

Convenient when you can invent your own enemies.



Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
by Hassane Zerouky
Global Outlook, No 2, Summer 2002 
GlobalResearch.ca - Centre for Research on Globalization   23 March 2004 
The URL of this article is: Hamas is a Creation of Mossad 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation

Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".


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## Liability (May 31, 2010)

Hollybaere said:


> Godboy said:
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> > Maybe because the people elected a terrorist organization to run things over there? If they like Hamas so much, then i say they deserve everything that happens to them. Terrorists and terrorist sympathizers are vile people and it amuses me when they suffer.
> ...



Ahem:

Daled Amos: Did Israel Create Hamas

The Israel created Hamas claim gets dismissed as a myth.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Liability said:


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Except among the brain dead conspiracy theorist lefty Pali-lovers.


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## Hollybaere (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Israel had offered to do just that.  The flotillistas refused.
> So much for your information. And Heil Hitler to you too.



Actually...........NO ISRAEL DID NOT "DO JUST THAT". They wanted the ships to go to Israel first, so that they could be "inspected". There was no offer for escort. So much for YOUR information!

Who knows, Israel could have captured all aboard and claimed they found weapons. No one can see what they would do. Then they would confiscate the supplies and either destroy them or keep them for themselves.

The FACT remains that they Israeli Navy boarded these ships in INTERNATIONAL WATERS!!! This in itself is a WAR CRIME!!

HELL NO!!! Never would I say "Heil Hitler", he betrayed humanity like no one ever before him!


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Hollybaere said:


> The Rabbi said:
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Paranoid much?


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## Hollybaere (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Liability said:
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_How Israel Created Hamas
January 27, 2009



By ANDREW HIGGINS
Moshav Tekuma, Israel

Surveying the wreckage of a neighbors bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missiles trajectory back to an enormous, stupid mistake made 30 years ago.

Hamas, to my great regret, is Israels creation, says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israels destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gazas Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafats Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with Yassins, primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric._

How Israel Created Hamas  Pak Alert Press

So much for your "myth"!!


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Like I said.  Just among the brain dead Pali lovers here.


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## Liability (May 31, 2010)

Hollybaere said:


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So much for your misbegotten reading comprehension.

Tolerating an organization -- even USING it to some extent -- is NOT the same as "creating" it.

Words have reason.

You don't.


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## Modbert (May 31, 2010)

I'm just curious if anyone has bothered to look exactly what is on the "ban" list.

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

Better not be trying to bring a newspaper.


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## Modbert (May 31, 2010)

jillian said:


> The sad part is Israel always said that after the goods were inspected, anything that actually was humanitarian and allowable would be let in .



Look at the ban list. You agree with it? Just wondering.

To me, this list seems more about breaking the people who live in that area than it does protecting Israel.


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## Liability (May 31, 2010)

Modbert said:


> I'm just curious if anyone has bothered to look exactly what is on the "ban" list.
> 
> http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf
> 
> Better not be trying to bring a newspaper.



Why would it surprise you that, in a blockade related to war, items that could very well provide tools for propaganda might be prohibited?

I see that many necessities are permitted.  I see that many items of convenience, or mere comfort, or items which could be used as components of weaponry are banned.


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## Modbert (May 31, 2010)

Liability said:


> Why would it surprise you that, in a blockade related to war, items that could very well provide tools for propaganda might be prohibited?
> 
> I see that many necessities are permitted.  I see that many items of convenience, or mere comfort, or items which could be used as components of weaponry are banned.



Odd, when we went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't remember us taking away newspapers and chocolate and stuff to repair homes. Maybe you can point out to me where we did that?

I see many items that have no point of being banned other than to make people suffer. It has nothing to do with safety.


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## Liability (May 31, 2010)

Modbert said:


> Liability said:
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We liberated Iraq.  I cannot fathom why we'd blockade them.

That's probably just me.


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## Modbert (May 31, 2010)

Liability said:


> We liberated Iraq.  I cannot fathom why we'd blockade them.
> 
> That's probably just me.



Odd, I don't see you're answer for Afghanistan in that post. Maybe my eyesight is not good as it use to be.  Also, we could just have easily banned newspapers in Iraq in order to make sure there was no propaganda going around about the troops. That's just using your line of logic however.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The supposedly peaceful protesters are solely to blame for any and all deaths. They CHOSE to attack armed men with sticks and tried to seize their weapons. THEY alone are responsible for every death.



 i am morally opposed to all people who will fight to the death for whatever the reasoning or justification. 

in armed conflict both sides are wrong.

 the side that is more wrong is the side that first opened fire. 

i am a veteran of almost 50 years of non-violent civil disobedience. more than once, i have allowed myself to be the only one beaten and arrested to prevent a riot that would have had many more casualties and/or huge amounts of property damage. i have not seen the video yet, but several reports i read stated that the people on the vessels opened fire on the israelis. 

the first mention of boarding was in the threads here. since i don't have a clear picture of the sequence of action yet, i'll withhold commentary on that. 

i am not competent to express graphically enough how appalling this is. 

if those ships indeed have a humanitarian cargo aboard, preventing them from docking is a *shanda *and anathema to the moral values of the hebrew people.

if there were armed mercenaries aboard vessels broadcasting a humanitarian mission, that is even more shameful.

i am most ashamed for my people that there exist such loathesome creatures that would cheer this on in the name of the god of my parents and my parent's parents. 

pity the fool who is beyond redemption.

on a lighter side for the military mavens with a sense of humor: why are they called terrorists when they are the enemy and mercenaries when they work for us?


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


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That certainly answered my question.


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## germanguy (May 31, 2010)

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
The only country in which the people decide who governs and who not.
As my country shares a distinct history with the people of Israel, I am more than reluctant to take a side in this.

Notwithstanding, I feel more and more helpless and frustrated. The current government is not acting wise or in any way clever (not that some of those people on these boats have been more clever). 

I feel sad for the lives lost for nothing, I feel sad for the people in Gaza, for which these people died and I feel sad for the Israelis, who need to kill to safeguard their country.

This whole conflict is a total mess and I can not see, that even a certain amount og good will on both sides would help to solve it. An endless circle of violence. 

ze germanguy


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## blu (May 31, 2010)

obama could save his whole, currently shit presidency by siding with turkey and publicly condemning israel.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

germanguy said:


> Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
> The only country in which the people decide who governs and who not.
> As my country shares a distinct history with the people of Israel, I am more than reluctant to take a side in this.
> 
> ...



I dont see why you are conflicted.
Germans are a sick people.  Their Nazi experience so warped their perception of good and bad that they cannot see either.  They cannot express patriotism, for example, without being reminded of Nazism and crowds in Nuremberg.  And they cannot see the necessity of engaging in armed conflict to keep peace.  Any armed conflict must be bad and those engaging in it immoral. It is a sick perspective.
Israel certainly has the right to defend itself.  It certainly has the right to enforce a blockade on weapons going into an area which has been a hotbed of violence against Israeli citizens.
There is no "circle of violence." THis is a made up lie by certain weenies who cannot distinguish between good and bad.  There is the Palestinians acting badly and making poor decisions and there is the Israelis responding to and trying to end those actions.  That is not a circle of violence any more than WW2 was.
I feel bad for the German people.  They will be the only people in history to loathe themselves out of existence.  This is a shame since G-d has instilled a particular genius in Germans that has benefitted the world many times over.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

blu said:


> obama could save his whole, currently shit presidency by siding with turkey and publicly condemning israel.


What would that do, other than further alienate Israel and appear to be the ass kissing of Muslims that he is famous for?


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## blu (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > obama could save his whole, currently shit presidency by siding with turkey and publicly condemning israel.
> ...



show israel that they no longer have a free pass


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## Hollybaere (May 31, 2010)

Liability said:


> Hollybaere said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



Would Hamas be what it is today without Israel's help?? Which part of the word "NO" do you not understand?


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
> ...



bravo, way to parlay the expression of pain and helplessness of someone who is either very young or aging into an opportunity to spew the partisan hack palaver.

not all germans are sick people; only the warmongers and those that willingly support their imperialist mayhem. 

the same is true of american people, israeli people and palestinian people.


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## CMike (May 31, 2010)

It's a huge PR photo op.

Israel told Turkey not to send the ships in. Turkey tried to force the ships from the terrorists into Israel's land. Israel tried to stop them, they didn't stop.

Then when Israeli commandos went on the ship, they attacked them, and used their guns against them.

And yet, their the victims

If they truely wanted to send aid, they could have docked in the port of Ashdod, Tel-Aviv. It would have been unloaded and sent there, but they wanted to stage their huge propoganda event.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > germanguy said:
> ...



That was so far above your head it is no wonder you cannot fathom a word I wrote.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

CMike said:


> It's a huge PR photo op.
> 
> Israel told Turkey not to send the ships in. Turkey tried to force the ships from the terrorists into Israel's land. Israel tried to stop them, they didn't stop.
> 
> ...



i still haven't been able to see the video yet and i haven't been able to sort a few things out. i'm kinda busy doing other things and i'm outdoors and can just barely use the browser because of that big texas sun.

am i reading correctly in your posts and a few others that the israelis attempted to board the vessel and they were resisted with improvised weapons or were there firearms aboard the craft before the israelis got there?

its unclear in some of the text reports and i got the impression from one report that the crew fired on the boarding party first. was that because they already had firearms aboard or did it get out of hand when they were able to disarm some of the boarders?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

CMike said:


> It's a huge PR photo op.
> 
> Israel told Turkey not to send the ships in. Turkey tried to force the ships from the terrorists into Israel's land. Israel tried to stop them, they didn't stop.
> 
> ...



I know.  Soldiers attacked an unarmed civilian ship and killed 19 civilians on the ship.  And people think those who died are the victims?  Oh, and for good measure, the ship was in international waters.  

Shocking.  

They wanted to avoid the blockade, genius.  Thats why they were bringing it directly to Gaza.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.



Of course they got attacked.  They were forcibly boarding a vessel in international waters.  What did they expect, flowers?


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.
> ...



Non resistence, since these were ostensibly peaceful civilians.
Apparently the video shows otherwise.


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.



Riiight...so if this was in international waters and they were US citizens being attacked by Russian troops off the coast of Vladavostok, you'd hail Russian commandos as doing the right thing? Get a grip....


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.



All camera material has been confiscated by Israel. 
Media can not freely contact Crew members of the ships in port of Ashdod. There is media-blockade. You are currently seeing *selective* Israelian version of the incident. 
You do not see what happened in general and before, these details will come out once media can reach crew members.

Now, if you complain of Israelian special-forces getting resistance, Special Forces should have primarily landed on the Greek ship or one of the European ships, but Greeks are tough ones too.


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Um....were the civilians boarding Israeli warships or did I miss something??


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.
> ...



Your moral equivalence ploy is laughable, at best.  It isn't even close to being analogous.


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



You sound like J Edgar Hoover making excuses for the Alabama national guard during the 1960s...


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Being a peaceful civilian means you can't resist when someone tries to invade your boat?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.
> ...



What?!  How does that relate to the situation under discussion? Obviously you have no clue.  But then what else is new, you've always shown your inability to think without emoting.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Oh?

Do explain how they aren't analogous please.  Be detailed.


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## Modbert (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> What?!  How does that relate to the situation under discussion? Obviously you have no clue.  But then what else is new, you've always shown your inability to think without emoting.



Dr Grump is saying this because:

Israel boarded the ship in International Waters. 
They went in to subdue those on the ships.


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> (...)peaceful civilians.(...)



They were first of all civilians. Harrassed and terrorized in Internations waters. 
Maybe even I would resist an intruding terrorist-pirate on open seas.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



It's an example designed to show that your opinions of the event are decided by who the actors are, not the actual events that occurred.  Its not really complicated, at all.  But I suspect you don't have a valid reply to it since you questioned its relevance as opposed to actually responding to it.


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



And Israel never misses and opportunity to miss an opportunity recently. What moral equivalence? What exactly did these international citizens do? Still trying to figure it out. Israel should have at least waited until these guys were in Gaza waters. Then they could have seen what aid was given...

Look at it logically, it would have been a win-win situation for Israel. They get their version of the coast guard or border security to board the vessels. If they find non-humanitarian aid, they confiscate it. If not, they let it go.

Instead they were heavy-handed, OTT and have taken an already volatile situation and escalated it. They are out of control and deserve condemnation. 25 years ago, that country had the support of the western world. The right-wing loons, who seem to have more and more say in that country, are being hard arses about even simple things.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.
> ...



All I know is BBC was showing night vision video of the incident and based on that what I saw was protesters attacking the boarding party before the had a chance to defend themselves.
You may be correct but of course Hamas, et al would never pull a stunt like that.  (Just adding real perspective here).


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Folks.  You need to turn on the news (BBC).  New videos showing the soldiers being viciously attacked as soon as they were on the deck.  They were fighting for their lives.  This whole thing looks pre-organized, the protesters were waiting for the Israelis with obvious intent of malice.
> ...



If the US citizens did the exact same thing that those "peace protesters" did to those lawfully acting commandos, yes.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Hmm
Vladivostok citizens havent attacked Russia
There is no support group in the US for people from Vladivostok
There is no embargo on the eastern part of Russia
There is no concern of Americans supplying terrorist items to people in Vladivostok

So aside ffrom being completely different they are totally analogous


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Shocking that people would attack soldiers who are forcefully illegally boarding their boat


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



No moron.  I questioned your attack delivery which is typical of your posts.
You didn't want a valid reply or else you would have phrased you statement differently.  Nice try at deflection though.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



So if Russian commandos illegally boarded an American boat, the Americans should just sort of lay back and accept it?


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Please explain to me how those commandos were acting lawfully....


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



And if that boat was full of right-wing Yanks who believe like those who post on this board, how do you think this convo would be going?


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



And all of that has to do what exactly with a boat in INTERNATIONAL WATERS?


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > It's a huge PR photo op.
> ...



From what I saw, when the Israelis boarded the ship they were met by men with clubs. Two pistols were taken from the invading troops but the people were overwhelmed by the troops. The Israeli troops were the first aggressors.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



  It was a war footing blockade, i.e. legal.  They were warned even before all this happened not to do it.  They did it anyway and don't buy the humanitarian aid crap.  This was how weapons were being smuggled in before Israel started the blockade.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



The boarding was legal.

If you disagree, prove it by citing international law that prohibits navies from boarding and inspecting ships in international water. While you are at it, you will simultaneously need to defend the fact that the United States claims the right to do this for any vessel they believe is suspicious, which is, according to you, illegal.


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Cool, so you have no problem if a Russian warship boards a US fishing vessel...would love to see that happen...


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Oh?  Please cite the legal doctrine that makes the blockade legal.  Furthermore please cite the doctrine that says that you can forcibly board ships in international waters because of their stated intent.  Good luck


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



And that is what it comes down to...supply terrorist items..

So let me get this straight...
This flotilla that has openly courted international media attention probably had hidden weaponry onboard, knowing that at some stage Israeli forces would probably search the vessel, and more likely than not find any contraband, and make themselves look like complete dickheads? Yeah, right.....


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> (...)
> based on that what I saw(...)



You did not see wounded or dead civilians. 
You just saw, what Israel released to press.  
There is media-blockade and media still can't reach crew members in port of Ashdod. 
Israel is currently taking the strategy of demonizing the civilian crew members, it even says, crew members have links to Al-Qaeda. 

Israeli deputy foreign minister Danny Ayalon claims the Turkish-based aid group has ties to terror groups including Al Qaeda.
Aussies onboard during deadly convoy raid - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

You Israelis totally fucked-up the situation.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



It has. In fact, they shot down a US airline that flew into their airspace. Do you remember the war that happened after that event?

Me either. I also notice you did not attempt to prove me wrong.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



A little thing called Maritime Law.  You can do the specific search if you want, I don't have the hours it would take to find the articles covering this issue.  You can also search the National Archives database for relevant historical precedence.  Try again.


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



It was a Korean airliner and it was in 1984...

I'm don't need to prove you wrong. Slavery was legal in some nations once upon a time, doesn't mean it was morally right, does it?


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



it is has not been made clear yet whether they were armed or disarmed members of the boarding party. there have been no reports of weapons as cargo.


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> A little thing called Maritime Law.  You can do the specific search if you want, I don't have the hours it would take to find the articles covering this issue.  You can also search the National Archives database for relevant historical precedence.  Try again.



U.N. Human Rights Chief: Israel's Blockade of Gaza Strip Is Illegal
United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay on Friday accused Israel of violating the rules of warfare with its blockade stopping people and goods from moving in or out of the Gaza Strip.
In a 34-page report on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Pillay also called on Israel to stop expanding its West Bank settlements and punish all settlers who attack Palestinians. 

U.N. Human Rights Chief: Israel's Blockade of Gaza Strip Is Illegal - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News - FOXNews.com


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## Dr Grump (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



Bingo....


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > (...)
> ...



Are you calling me an Israeli?!


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> it is has not been made clear yet whether they were armed or disarmed members of the boarding party. there have been no reports of weapons as cargo.



There were no weapons.
All crew members have been checked by x-ray when boarding ships in Istanbul and Antalya.


Turkish officials have denied claims leveled by Israeli authorities that weapons were onboard one of the six aid ships attacked by Israel on Monday. Officials from the Customs Undersecretariat said every passenger was searched before getting on the ship with the help of X-ray machines and metal detectors. Senior officials from the undersecretariat said Israel's allegations were tantamount to complete nonsense.

Officials deny Israeli claims weapons were onboard


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > A little thing called Maritime Law.  You can do the specific search if you want, I don't have the hours it would take to find the articles covering this issue.  You can also search the National Archives database for relevant historical precedence.  Try again.
> ...



Of course you know I put little to no stock in the UN.  In my humble but accurate opinion they are a joke and a tool.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> tommywho70x said:
> 
> 
> > CMike said:
> ...



sometimes it seems like you're the only middle east poster child that can give me a straight answer except one thing: is your avatar you and is that an oboe in your mouth?

marcy is being awful quiet today. you think she's feeling some remorse for being so foolish?

why was the ship being boarded and why did they resist the boarding?

the kiddies here seem to think there might be weapons as cargo. 
what exactly are they trying to deliver?

keep up the good work, bro. 

you're no avrum natan, but i appreciate the media you lay in here.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

ekrem said:


> tommywho70x said:
> 
> 
> > it is has not been made clear yet whether they were armed or disarmed members of the boarding party. there have been no reports of weapons as cargo.
> ...



So far all that was searched were the crew and passengers.............


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

Since the blockade is illegal, the attack was illegal.

And *gasp* you mean the US might break international law as well?  No...never.  I mean the US wouldn't torture anyone...would it?


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## Barb (May 31, 2010)

Hollybaere said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe because the people elected a terrorist organization to run things over there? If they like Hamas so much, then i say they deserve everything that happens to them. Terrorists and terrorist sympathizers are vile people and it amuses me when they suffer.
> ...



This bears repeating.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > tommywho70x said:
> ...



The boarders were repelling from helicopters.  Before they even hit the deck they were under attack by protesters wielding long metal pipes and swarming the boarders.  There were claims of knives being used to stab the boarders.  
Oh and before anyone again says all passengers were screened, knives and guns could have been hidden in unchecked cargo or knives quickly fashioned from most anything already on board.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



2 things.

1)  The UNSC's opinion (which this is not) decides the legality of blockades.

Pillay is an internationally recognized expert on human rights law.  You are....well, just some tool who says shit and then backs it up by saying "maritime law".


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Are you calling me an Israeli?!



No, I am calling you as someone focusing on something expected: Media-War. 
This is a side-battle hoping to achieve certain goals intended for the US public and the resulting effects on its administration. 
There is the "West" and the "Rest". Top dog of "West" is USA. If USA gives further umbrella for Israel, Turkey will play with "Rest". Either way, Turks are mourning their deaths, deaths being put into one-line with Al-Qaeda by Israelian officials, and we will off course retaliate.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> tommywho70x said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Oh, well, they had some knives.

That surely justified shooting 40 people.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



your logic has a little flaw here. 

when was the last time a shipload of arms got so much advance publicity? 

they don't even do press releases when the shipment is going somewhere that everybody will be happy to receive it. 

what makes you think they are actually smuggling weapons?

the only element of all this that has me questioning the motives of the freedom flotilla people is that they resisted boarding.

 that's never healthy regardless of where you may be when a naval vessel orders you to heave to and prepare to receive a boarding party.

to resist is just plain stupid unless you have something to hide.


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## CMike (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Yeah, the UN that put Libya and Iran on the human rights committee. They are really credible


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## CMike (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> tommywho70x said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



In fact, I saw video of the terrorists throwing a soldier overboard.

It was a staged propoganda event.

If they truely wanted to send humanitarian aid. They could have sent the ships to the port in Tel-Aviv, it would have been unloaded and sent there.

How would Turkey react if Greece sent a bunch of boats into Turkey, after Turkey told them not to do so, with a good chance that their are missiles for terrorists on the ships?

They probably would have sunk all the ships.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



It was clear that they attempted to disarm members of the boarding party.
The Israelis have let some 5 ships through the blockade already.  At this point they needed to enforce it or drop it.  They chose to enforce it.
"weapon" is an amorphous term.  Lots of things can become weapons.  Like BBs for example.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Of course they wouldn't put weapons on this flotilla, I never said that or insinuated it.  Confrontation and publicity was the goal and weapons on board would completely undermine their ploy.  That should go without saying. 
Past intel had already proven weapons were getting in via this route *prior to* the blockade or do you think the Israelis set up the blockade because they had nothing better to do?
The blockade was challenged leaving Israel no choice but to enforce it.


----------



## jillian (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> your logic has a little flaw here.
> 
> when was the last time a shipload of arms got so much advance publicity?
> 
> ...



whether or not there were weapons is unclear at this point.

the reality is they want to break the blockade and that is unacceptable.

calling them a 'freedom flotilla' is adopting their misnomer. they aren't a 'freedom flotilla'. they are a pro-hamas flotilla. THAT is where the problem is.

And they intentionally created this situation for the specific purpose of having a confrontation. It is a shame that anyone died. I wish that hadn't happened.

On the other hand, you don't try to grab weapons from soldiers and don't go after soldiers with weapons of any sort.  seems to be common sense.

do i wish this handn't happened? of course. so maybe turkey shouldn't be creating these circumstances. i think the armenians might be amused by their concern for 'human rights'.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

I should mention the blockade is imposed jointly by Israel and Egypt.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

CMike said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > ekrem said:
> ...



States don't serve on the human rights committee, only individuals do.


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

CMike said:


> Yeah, the UN that put Libya and Iran on the human rights committee. They are really credible



UN is the only muti-national, multi-cultural body in this world that has legitimacy. 
There is nothing besides the UN, preferably a reformed one demolitioning the 5-Power system to a further basis, adjusted from WW2 to the 21st century circumstances.
In such a reformed UN off course Muslims also have a strong say with 1.X Billion people in this world. 
Either this way, or the failed Neo-Con way with selective standards varrying to the Interests of just a few.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Winner of the Clueless Award in posting for the day.  Congratulations.  Here's your sign.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

ekrem said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the UN that put Libya and Iran on the human rights committee. They are really credible
> ...



NATO has no legitimacy?  I wonder why countries have been trying to join it then.

The U.N is corrupt and filled with 3rd world despots and human rights abusers.  The US could no better than leave that sad org and turn the headquarters into something as useful as a gay disco.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

CMike said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > tommywho70x said:
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There are, at a minimum, 9 dead civilians 0 dead soldiers.  

Regardless of what you saw, it is evident and obvious that the use of force against the civilians was MUCH worse than the use of force against the soldiers.  You only saw a particular view because the Israeli military has only released the footage they want to release.  

You do know that Israel doesn't let in a lot of goods into Gaza, right?  Such terrorist implements such as...umm...chocolate....They were trying to bring in things that Israel disallowed them from bringing in, but they clearly weren't bringing in missiles.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> CMike said:
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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > CMike said:
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Are you really this much of a fuckwit?

Get educated about what the human rights committee is.  Hint:  Its not the same as the human rights council.  Neither Libya nor Iran served on the Human Rights committee...countries cannot serve on it, only individuals can.  And if you knew even a basic amount about international law, you would realize the difference.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> ekrem said:
> 
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> > CMike said:
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NATO has no legitimacy when it comes to human rights matters, no.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
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Learn the difference between the human rights committee and the human rights council, dipshit.


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## CMike (May 31, 2010)

Countries are appointed to the UN human rights countries, and those countries chose the individuals.

Some of the most notorious offenders of human rights such as Iran and Libya were elected tot he UN  human rights committees. That means they mean nothing.


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## CMike (May 31, 2010)

The US should pull out of the UN, and just continue to let the thugs run it.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> CMike said:
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You try to beat me to death with a club and I have a gun then you're just stupid or purposely suicidal.
And despite your claim, Egypt and Israel had a legal blockade in place.  The flotilla attempted to break it, the Israelis stopped it.  End of story.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

CMike said:


> Countries are appointed to the UN human rights countries, and those countries chose the individuals.
> 
> Some of the most notorious offenders of human rights such as Iran and Libya were elected tot he UN  human rights committees. That means they mean nothing.



Jesus Christ.  What are you all trying to win an award for stupidity?

Human Rights Committee - Members

"Human Rights Committee - Members

The Human Rights Committee is composed of 18 independent experts who are persons of high moral character and recognized competence in the field of human rights.

Members are elected for a term of four years by States parties in accordance with articles 28 to 39 of the Covenant. Members serve in their personal capacity and may be re-elected if nominated. "

Compare that to the human rights COUNCIL

Human Rights Council - Homepage

"The Human Rights Council is an inter-governmental body within the UN system made up of 47 States responsible for strengthening the promotion and protection of human rights around the globe."


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
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The individuals on the committee AND council are representatives of their respective states.  Who's the ignorant dipshit now?  Duh!


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


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Ah, of course.  Because you said it was legal, then it must be.  Where did you go to law school, by the way?  Where did you receive your LLM degree?  What work have you done in the field of international law?


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2010)

blu said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > The supposedly peaceful protesters are solely to blame for any and all deaths. They CHOSE to attack armed men with sticks and tried to seize their weapons. THEY alone are responsible for every death.
> ...



They were not attacked, they were boarded legally by a blockading Country. Just as we blockade NK ships and used to board ships bound for Iraq.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
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No.  They aren't.  The individuals of the committee are appointed as experts of international law.  They are NOT representatives of their states.

From Article 28 of the ICCPR which is the treaty that creates the human rights committeee.

"The members of the Committee shall be elected and shall serve in their personal capacity. "

As to who is the ignorant dipshit, that would be you.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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I posted where you can locate the relevant documents if you choose to do the search.  Must you continue to purposely be an ignorant ass or is it genetic?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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You still don't get it do you.  Who is being selected and elected for the committee?  Members of the representative states, defacto representatives.
Do you honestly think states don't lobby to have specific individuals on these committees that don't have their interests at heart?  If so you're fooling yourself.
How naive can you be?


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## jillian (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ah, of course.  Because you said it was legal, then it must be.  Where did you go to law school, by the way?  Where did you receive your LLM degree?  What work have you done in the field of international law?



feel free to answer all of those questions. 

i look forward to your responses.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


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i understand and don't have much disagreement with any of your assertions. 

you understand that confrontation and publicity is an important element for dissidents of all stripes, violent or non-violent. stage an event in the hope of gaining supporters. 
s
squash the event and suppress media coverage in the hope of preventing the opposition from weakening your authority.

that is the nature of some of the strategies recommended in the classified document making recommendations for government policy and procedure in response to terrorist activities in the thread you chose to dismiss as common fruitcake larouchian ranting.

i'm an accomplished technical writer, chum. most of my work has lots of confusing words and numbers in them and are only of interest to a very narrow audience. 

journalism has been a hobby since i was a kid. this group journalism stuff has a lot of potential if people would learn how to disagree with each other by arguing the arguments instead of attempting character assassination on people they don't agree with or understand.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
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Right.  I'm going to search for something that I know doesn't exist because you said it is there.  Because you've shown yourself to be such a scholar so far, that I'll just waste my time looking for something because you said it was there.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

jillian said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, of course.  Because you said it was legal, then it must be.  Where did you go to law school, by the way?  Where did you receive your LLM degree?  What work have you done in the field of international law?
> ...



I tried to point out to him that little thing called Maritime Law and the referenced applications of historical precedence in the National Archives alone not to mention so many other repositories.


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> NATO has no legitimacy?  I wonder why countries have been trying to join it then.
> 
> The U.N is corrupt and filled with 3rd world despots and human rights abusers.  The US could no better than leave that sad org and turn the headquarters into something as useful as a gay disco.



Turkey is only one of the small ones challenging the preferential "West" system of this world. Yet, in near future world system will get a total overhaul, it is unavaoidable. 
Before this overhaul is being seriously enforced on global scale, different sub-parts of this world will overhaul theirselves with 1-3 regional players in each region competing for power and influence to make the shift from middle-power into global status.
One of that said regions is the West-Asia, Middle-East is in that.
Turkey is the most serious claimant on this "making a shift" in West-Asia. 
As we are still too small for a global role, we have to line-up the looser states of immediate Sunnite neighbourhood behind us. 
Israel is governed by total amateurs, criminal they are anyway, but also Amateur.
Economic and military power is not enough, you also have to win hearts and minds. Winning hearts is being done through Palestine.

And JILLIAN: The Armenians are no parameter in all this. Armenia is a small, poor nation. Championing Armenians, like USA tried to do with North-Iraqi Kurds, will lead you nowhere. All this must have had come by USA 2-3 decades before when Turkey was weak and a cock-sucker of USA in Soviet times. 
Championing Armenians will lead Turks to see Christian-preferential acting by USA in world-politics, it will lead for Turks one step more leaving transatlantic and, JILLIAN, you as a Jew with your motherland Israel best hope USA still keeps preferential relations with the above metioned claimant to the area your beloved Israel resides in.

And off course, you have Turkish blood on your hand. It is what defines your kind from now on.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


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What part of THEY SERVE IN THEIR PERSONAL CAPACITY don't you understand?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Suit yourself........ Your stupidity HAS to be genetic.  There is no other explanation.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Nice words.  What part of REALITY don't you understand?


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

jillian said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, of course.  Because you said it was legal, then it must be.  Where did you go to law school, by the way?  Where did you receive your LLM degree?  What work have you done in the field of international law?
> ...



Considering I was basing my beliefs off of what Pillay said, your questions have exactly what to do with anything?

But, for your information, I have a JD from NYU.  

As for Pillay, she has been on the international field for some years now.  She has a JD from Natal University and a LLM from Harvard.


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## Liability (May 31, 2010)

Modbert said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > We liberated Iraq.  I cannot fathom why we'd blockade them.
> ...



Well, gee.  Maybe because the same logic applies to both Iraq and Afghanistan.  And I did answer in your other thread.

The fact is, we aren't fighting the people of Afghanistan, either.  So, why we'd want to blockade them is a mystery at best.

We are fighting the scumbag forces within Afghanistan.  That's a different matter entirely, and has to be handled differently.

You faux question still makes zero sense.


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## Modbert (May 31, 2010)

Liability said:


> Well, gee.  Maybe because the same logic applies to both Iraq and Afghanistan.  And I did answer in your other thread.
> 
> The fact is, we aren't fighting the people of Afghanistan, either.  So, why we'd want to blockade them is a mystery at best.
> 
> ...



Israel is supposedly not fighting the people in the Gaza strip either. Which is my point.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
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The part where you are confusing your strange twisted perception of things with the way they actually are.

By the way, fuckwit, no individual from Iran NOR from Libya has ever served on the Human Rights committee.


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## The Rabbi (May 31, 2010)

ekrem said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > NATO has no legitimacy?  I wonder why countries have been trying to join it then.
> ...



Last I checked Turkey was part of NATO.


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## Liability (May 31, 2010)

Modbert said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Well, gee.  Maybe because the same logic applies to both Iraq and Afghanistan.  And I did answer in your other thread.
> ...



But they are fighting Hamas -- and Hamas does represent the people in the Gaza strip.  So, demonstrating to the people that support for Hamas is entirely counter-productive MIGHT just compel Hamas to cut the shit.

Your "point" remains pointless inasmuch as your analogy is still lacking roots in the concept of a valid analog.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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I wasn't the one who said it.  Yup, you just confirmed it.  Your stupidity is congenital.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



would it be too much to ask the rev putzkopf and his flock to keep the focus of their side talk on topic or take it to its own thread?


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## Jack Fate (May 31, 2010)

I pretty much agree with all those who believe whatever happens to hamas is what they earn.  I could care less about the people on this ship.  Their goal is a propaganda victory and has about as much to do with humanitarian aid as what my dog just dumped in the back yard.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
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Congratulations on not saying it.  That doesn't make you any less retarded for not knowing what "personal capacity" means.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Jack Fate said:


> I pretty much agree with all those who believe whatever happens to hamas is what they earn.  I could care less about the people on this ship.  Their goal is a propaganda victory and has about as much to do with humanitarian aid as what my dog just dumped in the back yard.



So if people want a propaganda victory, that justifies murdering them?


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## strollingbones (May 31, 2010)

so rabbi since i should get over something that happened 40 plus years ago...i guess anything that happened before that should be forgotten also?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
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I know what personal capacity means you moron.  What you choose not to see is human reality.  Do you honestly think the UN, it's members and committee electees function in a utopian moral vacuum?
That's polliannish at best, delusional at worst.


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## ekrem (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > ekrem said:
> ...



Yes, you are right sorry. 
I forgot, that I am in US audience for whom - they knew it so - the world turns like they wish.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > ekrem said:
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People here will post what and where they want and have been doing so since long before even I arrived.  If you don't like it you know where the door is.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
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Really?

So care to explain this report lambasting Tunisias human rights records from the 14 members....one of whom is from Tunisia?

Human Rights Committee - 92nd Session
Human Rights Committee - Members

Nobody said the UN, or anyone else, lives in a Utopian moral vacuum.  But if you don't know the difference between individuals serving in their personal capacity and individuals serving in a representative capacity, you are incredibly stupid.  Individuals serving in a personal capacity, largely do NOT serve in a representative capacity, regardless of what uninformed morons like yourself may think.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Tunasia - you just answered your own question (see bolded).  Boy, are you dense!
As for the second part keep telling yourself that.  You would think someone trained as a lawyer would have at least a slight grasp of human nature or maybe you're just out of law school and haven't had the experience in this realm.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
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Oh?  Please do explain how I answered my own question.  I am just too dense to see why a representative of the government of Tunisia would criticize itself via an international body.  

Nothing in human nature says that people act as representatives of their governments wherever they go.  Jesus you are just too stupid for words.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Politics you lobotomized bozo.  Something you obviously don't understand.  And yes, they do.  Especially in this case.  If Tunisa didn't get something of value in return for this vote then they will find a way to recall that individual back home and work on getting someone else more amenable to them elected in his/her stead.  Duh!


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
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Christ you are fucking stupid.  There is no way to recall them, they are elected to set terms.  

You know fuck all about the committee, but yet you think you know the politics of how it works?  Get educated before spewing your bullshit.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
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Are you saying a country can't recall any of it's citizens for whatever reason they deem appropriate?  Especially a country like Tunisia?  Talk about ignorantly spewing bullshit.  Damn Sparky, even the dictionary has your picture posted as the example for lost in la la land.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
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Umm, no.  A country can't recall any of it's citizens for whatever reason they deem appropriate.  I'm not even sure if you mean citizens who are serving in the UN or citizens in general, but either way you are wrong.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> tommywho70x said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



carry on with your chickenshit ranting, girls. i could give a shit less. if you don't understand the value of focusing on the topic you don't. not my problem. there are plenty of others here who do.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Jeeze....  Must you really be this self righteous?   like I said and I'm pretty sure the mods will say it also - don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.  Putz.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Yeah sure.  You haven't been around long have you?  Are you sure you're not still in Jr High?  Or are you judging other countries by our standards?  That would be a big oops!


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
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Please do give examples of a country "recalling" its citizens so I can figure out wtf your deluded ass is referring too.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
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> > Nik said:
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FYI

The UN Commissioner for Human Rights is not a lawyer and has no authority to delclare anything illegal. Until you can cite some sort of international legal authority the blocade of Gaza is legal.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Oh, well, they had some knives.
> 
> That surely justified shooting 40 people.



Zing.

There is no way someone with a knife can ever hurt anyone.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
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The "UN Commissioner for Human Rights" is not a position within the UN.  If you are referring to the UN Human Rights official quoted before, she has a Law Degree from Natal University and a LLM from Harvard.  If you are referring to the High Commissioner for Human Rights, that again is Pillay, and I have already described her educational pedigree.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, well, they had some knives.
> ...



You can hurt someone with just your hands too. That doesn't mean its ok to kill someone just because they have hands.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> There are, at a minimum, 9 dead civilians 0 dead soldiers.
> 
> Regardless of what you saw, it is evident and obvious that the use of force against the civilians was MUCH worse than the use of force against the soldiers.  You only saw a particular view because the Israeli military has only released the footage they want to release.
> 
> You do know that Israel doesn't let in a lot of goods into Gaza, right?  Such terrorist implements such as...umm...chocolate....They were trying to bring in things that Israel disallowed them from bringing in, but they clearly weren't bringing in missiles.



What is your fixation with chocolate? Is it a necessity of life or something? As long as Israel allows everthing needed to sustain life through their blockade what difference does it make that people in Gaza are deprived of chocolate? The aim of the blockade is to force Hamas out of Gaza in order to keep them from firing missiles randomly into Israel. If they don't have chocolate bars while they are setting up missiles I do not particularly care, and it might actually encourage someone there to help get rid of them.


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## Godboy (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
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What if those hands are around your neck? You are a fool if you think they shot a bunch of people simply because they saw a cook that happened to have a knife in his hands. There is little doubt that the knives were used in a life threatening manner.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus Christ.  What are you all trying to win an award for stupidity?
> ...


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > There are, at a minimum, 9 dead civilians 0 dead soldiers.
> ...



Just curious.  What would your feelings be if a foreign power stopped you from getting anything on that list.  Including chocolate.  

Sorry, but humans need more than the bare necessities to have a meaningful existence.  Its pathetic that you people justify a blockade against civilians.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
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> > Nik said:
> ...



What authority does she have under international law to declare anything illegal. I checked her CV and saw nothing to indicate any knowledge of maritime law.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
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> > Nik said:
> ...



The blockade is against Hamas, not the civilians. Are we supposed to ignore Hamas becuse they hide behind women and children?


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
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She doesn't any any authority.  But merely because a judge hasn't ruled on something doesn't make it legal or illegal.  And we aren't talking about maritime law, genius.  We are talking about blockades, which fall under the laws of war.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
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Right.  Because the only two options are ignoring Hamas completely or letting them get chocolate through.


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## Godboy (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
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> > Nik said:
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Maybe they should have thought about that before they elected to have a terrorist organization be in charge of their people. They dug their own grave at the ballot box. They had an opportunity to bring peace to their people, but they decided murdering jews was more important.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
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I know.  Good thing the Israelis would never do such dastardly things like kill civilians...

...

...


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
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Nice edit.  Classy.  Care to cite some evidence thats why they voted in Hamas?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
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> > Nik said:
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Specifics?  That'll take a while so I'm not going to do your work for you unless you want to pay me but in general, throughout history here is a list of countries of which many have recalled representative and in some cases regular citizens home.  I don't think the USSR or Nazi Germany are listed here any longer but they had a habit of recalling people they held some leverage over.  Still happens today in many other countries.

http:
//www.internetworldstats.com/list2.htm


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Which would make the blockade legal, genius.

Regardless, Israel, and every country on Earth that maintains a navy, reserves the right to board any ship for inspection when it is bound for its territorial waters. As the official UN position is that Israel is in charge of Gaza, that makes what they did legal


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Hamas are only terrorists here. They are not terrorists there. And they were elected there.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
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You don't seem to understand how debate works.  If YOU make a claim it is YOUR responsibility to back it up.  It is YOU doing the work because YOU want to prove your point.  If you don't want to do the basic amount of work to back up your bullshit assertions, then kindly fuck off and die.  And a list of countries and what percentages of them use the internet just doesn't cut it.  If you want to be treated like you aren't a fucking moron, then be willing to work to provide even a minimal amount of evidence for the bullshit you constantly spout.

Oh.  And have a nice day.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Yeah, and a good thing terrorists don't either............
At least Israel doesn't specifically target civilians on purpose.  Now if only those misunderstood terrorists wouldn't fight hiding amongst civilians while happily killing Israelis.


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## Quantum Windbag (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Right.  Because the only two options are ignoring Hamas completely or letting them get chocolate through.



I believe Israel's options are actually to either blockade Hamas ro allow them to be freely supplied with weapons.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

okay ladies and germs, this blurb is from the current AP wire on yahoonews. 
and was this a legitimate attempt at enforcing a blockade that doesn't exactly have world consensus on its legitimacy or was this a commando raid with the objective of killing people?

why, pray tell, are israeli combatants designated commandos and arabs called terrorists?

The pre-dawn commando operation, which killed nine pro-Palestinian activists, was also sure to strengthen Gaza's Islamic militant Hamas rulers at the expense of U.S. allies in the region, key among them Hamas' main rival, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, as well as Egypt and Jordan.

"The attack on a humanitarian mission ... will only further alienate the international community and isolate Israel while granting added legitimacy to Hamas' claim to represent the plight of the Palestinian people," said Scott Atran, an analyst at the University of Michigan.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Umm, no.  Something is not legal just because it hasn't been ruled illegal in a court of law.  This is especially true in the international sphere since there aren't very many courts, and none in the traditional sense.


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



The last war with Hamas.

Palestinians killed 1400.

Israelis killed 13.

Where is the big threat?

Why is Israel scared shitless of Hamas?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



OKay You didn't really substantiate you claim.  Ooooooo....  aren't we a touchy arrogant little pissant.  I don't get why you can't get the concept that people have been recalled home all the time.  You hear it all the time in the news, ambassador or so-and-so attache or sos-and-so member of some foreign committee called home for such and such.  Jesus Christ!  Do you not read the paper or watch the news?!  How hard is that for your little pea brain to absorb.  What fucking bubble do you live in?
You really need to work on you cognitive and deductive abilities which so far have proven wanting.
Dude you're so full of shit your eyes are brown.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



More retarded shit from retards. The blockade is against Hamas. Hamas is the reason the people of Gaza are deprived of certain items, Ohh and last I checked the people of Gaza SUPPORT Hamas, so they have no reason to complain. Dumb fucking retards.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Godboy said:
> ...



Israel doesn't target civilians on purpose?

So it killed those 19 civilians by accident?  Or what exactly?


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Right.  Because the only two options are ignoring Hamas completely or letting them get chocolate through.
> ...



And where exactly does the chocolate come in again?


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## Godboy (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



This is what youre going with? Really? Do you think the palis didnt know how Hamas operates? If so, you are fucking stupid.


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## Godboy (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



If Israel was in the business of purposely killing palistinian civilians, then there wouldnt be any palis left in the world.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



What claim would you like me to substantiate?

Ambassaors are recalled because they are a direct representative of the country.  Of course if you are WORKING for the government they can recall you.  However if you are just a citizen, they can't.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Really?  They all support Hamas?  Care to provide proof of that claim?


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Godboy said:
> ...



I don't give a fuck whether they know or not.  My statement was care to cite some evidence thats WHY they voted them in.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Are you claiming the people of Gaza are to fucking stupid to know that Hamas is a Terror Organization? Is that really what you are claiming?


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Godboy said:
> ...



They voted for Hamas because Fatah sold out to Israel.


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## P F Tinmore (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Godboy said:
> ...



"Terrorist" is a meaningless, bullshit, political term with no consistent meaning.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
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> > Nik said:
> ...



I know that, if that person is a citizen of a free country.  If they are a citizen of a not-so-free country then frequently the government has some sort of hold over that person that will force them to return if the government recalls them from vacation or work out of country.  How freakin hard is that to understand??!!


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Godboy said:
> ...



No you brainless sack of shit.  I am not claiming anything.  I am asking him to provide evidence for WHY they voted them in.  

Christ.  Let me draw you asshats a fucking analogy.  

Obama is black.  Now.  People knew this when they voted him in.  Does this mean they voted him in BECAUSE he is black?  No.  It does not.

That someone has a property and they get voted into office does not mean they got voted into office BECAUSE of that property.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Ah.  I see.  So your argument isn't that ALL citizens can be recalled, but that SOME citizens can be recalled.

Any evidence this Tunisian citizen could be recalled?  Or are you just making shit up?


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Actually Obama only got elected because he was black. Thanks for proving the point.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Nik said:
> 
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> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Right.  Because blacks have a well known tendency to get elevated in this country.  I mean look at how many black senators there are.  Look at how many black House Members.  Look at how many black lawyers/doctors.  Look at how many black CEO's of fortune 500 companies.

Fuckwit.  If people voted for individuals because they were black you think maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't be grossly underrepresented in Congress?


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



MORON ALERT. Moron Alert.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Specific evidence?!  Of course not.  We were talking in general possibilities.  But let me ask you a question.  How free is Tunasia?  What is the culture like?  Both of those would give strong clues as to whether it would be possible or not.
And damn dude!  How many times did I have to rephrase it before you finally caught on??!!  If you had decided to find out what I meant first instead of simply attacking what you misunderstood all of this could have been avoided.  But then what would have been the fun in that?


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Wow.  This is what you've been reduced too?

Umm, ok then.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



You're right.  He did not get elected because he was black.  He was elected because he espoused a mantra of hope and change and he wasn't GWB in the person of McCain.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



No, you were talking about generalities.  I've been talking about specifics and I've provided evidence because I try not to make shit up.  You apparently don't feel the need to bother yourself with petty things like the facts.  

The Tunis representative holds multiple prestigious posts around the world.  He could flee to another country with boatloads of cash on a whim if he wanted, and he could emigrate to any first world country.  

And yes, it was difficult to read your horrible prose.  Please do try to be clearer in the future, it is painful to wade through your convoluted inarticulate sentences.  Further please note that there is a difference between ALL and SOME.

Anyhow.  Until you've provided some actual evidence that Abdelfattah Amor can be recalled by Tunisia, your claim is just you making more shit up.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Like I said I was talking in generalities and yes if he wants to flee to another country then that's his choice, I don't care.  I was trying to make a simple point and you decided to get freaky about it, don't blame me.  To be honest though, since you were being such an asshole about the whole thing it was nothing to treat you the way you seem to want to treat anyone who disagrees with you.  I was purposely vague because it became fun leading you around by the nose, the more of an ass you became the more I treated you as you deserved.
So get off you fucking high horse you arrogant prick.  You too easy of a mark.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Right.  I should get off my high horse because you don't know how to communicate above the level of a 4th grader?

Don't blame me for your failings.


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



and he isn't even really black. isn't that special?


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



don't feed the trolls

you just empower them


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## tommywho70x (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



congratulations! 

you have just been awarded today's best performance by a troll derailing an important thread about an important world shaping event in the ongoing conflict category. 

where shall we send your medal?


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



But it's ok for you to blame me for yours.  Riiiiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt...........
Can you say hypocrisy?  I knew you could.


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## Nik (May 31, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



And what exactly was my failure?  That I'm not magical and couldn't scry through the nonsensical bullshit that is your sad attempt at writing?  

Well, ok, fair enough.  I admit fair and square, I am not magical.  It is one of my failings.


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## Ringel05 (May 31, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Ya know, I've been around the forum for a while and that vast majority know my posting style.  They've come to realize when I'm not being a jokester I'm slaying partisan hacks and whiny arrogant asses.  You and Nik fit the later all to well.  So it looks like we won't get along unless you decide to grow some balls and thicken up that parchment skin of yours.  Until then
this is for you.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



You are the one obsessed with chocolate, you tell me.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> No you brainless sack of shit.  I am not claiming anything.  I am asking him to provide evidence for WHY they voted them in.
> 
> Christ.  Let me draw you asshats a fucking analogy.
> 
> ...



My bet is that they voted them in because they agree with Hamas' goal of destroying Israel. If you have evidence that will serve to educate me that my opinion is wrong you are welcome to present it. If you do not, your opinion is of no more worth than mine, which mean that it is total bullshit.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > No you brainless sack of shit.  I am not claiming anything.  I am asking him to provide evidence for WHY they voted them in.
> ...



Hamas has consistently stated they would never recognize Israel's "right" to occupy Palestine.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



You admit that your opinion is total bullshit, good to know.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



What opinion?


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## Ringel05 (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Yup, you're the paragon of perfection.    Your ability to ascertain others meanings in a logical, respectful manner is unmatched by anyone else in the world.  We all bask in your self adulating glory!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

Here are the facts:
(1) The Flortilla ships had no permission to enter Israeli territory and were doing it without permission. NO country in the WORLD would allow this, including the hypocritical Arab, Persian and Turkish countries bitching today.
(2) Israel announced that they would allow the ships in ONLY AFTER they thoroughly inspected each ship! Not at ALL an unreasonable demand.
(3) Israel demanded that the organizers coordinate with them, they refused. 
(4) These ships entered the Israeli waters without permission
(5) Gaza is a hostile entity to Israel which has committed numerous terrorist attacks and thousands upon thousands of missile attacks. They wouldn't hestiate to detoniate a WMD in Israel!
(6) If Israel allowed this defiant ships to break the blockade uninspected, then it would lead to thousands of copy cats and million of weapons of war storming into the country. NO country would allow that!
(7) The Flortilla ships were to be stopped and inspected thoroughly. The IDF requested the boat to halt. IT DIDN'T more than enough to raise suspicions that their were terrorist or arms on the boat. Upon stopping and entering the boat the IDF soldiers were attacked. Under any rules of international law, this allows for retaliation. So they retaliated and some hypocrits were killed!

FACTS ARE FACTS!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Why would they try to take the weapons away from the troops who came aboard to search the vessels? The only possible reason to do that is that they were insane, or that they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident. If it was the latter, they got what they deserved.



They attacked the troops, they didn't try to take there weapons!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

Jos said:


> Israel has not only shot and killed over twenty people On a ship in International waters,They also have done terrible damage to thier own Image, the mask has slipped people will see them for what they are



TO YOU? Who gives a fuck what you think about them. Anyone who see this as unjust is a hopeless liberal or someone who hates Israel no matter what she does. Her image will stay what it is. 

Note: If ships coming to America denied access to the Coast Guard, denied inspections and then attacked the Coast Guard when they boarded, I would hope the Coast Guard would fight back. Furthermore, I would hope the Coast Guard won't just let the boat pass in order not to upset douche bag liberals!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

strollingbones said:


> so was the uss liberty...hell if they can attack a us ship and just say...oppsie our bad and pay some money...why cant they attack this?


What rubbish, you can be ignorant all your life, but you can ignore the fact that it was friendly fire all you want if it makes you feel better!




strollingbones said:


> will this damage israel?  no...they will spin and twist it..till its rachel corries fault.


If you stand in front of bulldozer that doesn't see or hear you in the middle of a war zone, then YES its your fault your died!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > strollingbones said:
> ...



Are you dense or JUST plain STUPID. These ships were entering Israeli territory, hell bent on defying Israel! Not ONE COUNTRY would in the WORLD would allow them to come in uninspected. In fact, didn't Iran board and take prisoner British soldiers who did the same by accident. In fact there are many countries which would have sunk the boats!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

Barb said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Then where was it going you fucking idiot? If Israel allowed them in uninspected like your demented Leftist mind expects, then the next day MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of missiles and weapons would be flooding into Gaza hell bent on killing Joooossss, but maybe that is what you want, but no nation in the world would allow this!


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## Barb (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



You think calling me a whore in a neg rep is different than on the board? I warned you once.


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## DavidS (Jun 1, 2010)

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.... or the pictures and videos of the weapons taken from the ship where all of these "peaceful protesters" came from. 











[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used by Activists Against IDF Soldiers[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

DavidS said:


> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.... or the pictures and videos of the weapons taken from the ship where all of these "peaceful protesters" came from.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From úäéì"ä - ãó äáéú Israeli government site photo complete with Hamas flag.

Propaganda.


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## ErikViking (Jun 1, 2010)

DavidS said:


> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.... or the pictures and videos of the weapons taken from the ship where all of these "peaceful protesters" came from.





Yeah, I'll be sure to check everything wrapped up in a green flag from now on! 

"There's where they store all their knives! Who? Look at the headwear! it was terrorists! It is still left on the deck as we found it!"

But I seriously think the survivors of those ships should spend some time to really think about what they have participated in. They wanted to prove a point and now some of their freinds are dead. Toying with military in one of the worlds most tense areas... it is not a game of sports going on down there. They should feel some guilt too. 

I hope Israel officially can soar above the Osama-Cave PR level...

And Ghook93, no I don't hate jews. You can settle down again.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> > Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.... or the pictures and videos of the weapons taken from the ship where all of these "peaceful protesters" came from.
> ...



BUT anything the KNOWN terrorists that blow up children say is absolutely the truth RIGHT? You are a FUCKING JEW hater. Plain and simple, you prove it with EVERY post where you deny Israel exists and claim terrorists have the right to murder women and children and lob rockets mortars and missiles into cities indiscriminately. Every time you post one of your hate filled posts is proof you are an apologist for murderers and scum. Even other ARABS want nothing to do with these murderous scum. Every Arab Country has tossed their murdering psycho asses out. Egypt has blockaded the Border with Gaza.

You are scum like they are.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > DavidS said:
> ...



Nice rant! Keep it up, Israel can use all the spin it can get.


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

blu said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > blu said:
> ...



They never had you stupid fuck! In fact they have had the exact opposite. They have always had to live under the microscope, deal with double standards, lectures from countries that commit far worse and actual atrocities, unreasonable demands in the face of annihalition and ruthless terrorism and a MASS amount of propaganda believed by people without question, because the target is the JOOOOSSSS!


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



Perhaps it would be easier for them if they would get out of Palestine.

BTW, it has nothing to do with being Jews.


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> > Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.... or the pictures and videos of the weapons taken from the ship where all of these "peaceful protesters" came from.
> ...



LOL, you know all about propaganda!


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## mystic (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> > Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.... or the pictures and videos of the weapons taken from the ship where all of these "peaceful protesters" came from.
> ...



What were the keffiyehs to be used for? Strangulation?


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

ekrem said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > (...)peaceful civilians.(...)
> ...



Nice twist, similar to how your country twists the Armenian Genocide! Twisting facts must be a Turkish trait.

The so-called civilians where head toward Israeli controlled territory, they knew they would be stopped and boarded and they attacked during the PRE-STATED THOROUGH inspection request. Unfortunate people died, but they died of their own doing and own stupidity!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



No one knows if there are weapons or not unless they get checked! No country in the world would allow ships to enter their territories uninspected. Yet arrogant leftist expect Israel to allow this. Israel was fully within their rights to inspect the ships and fully within their rights to fight back when attacked!


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> tommywho70x said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



All "Free Gaza" boats are government inspected at the port of departure as requested by the movement to ensure there are no weapons. Israel knows this.

BTW, if Israel requested to inspect the cargo in international waters by unarmed inspectors, the request would probably be honored.


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## Ringel05 (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > tommywho70x said:
> ...



Trusting soul, aren't you.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > GHook93 said:
> ...



Shipping weapons would destroy their credibility and would remove them from the protection of innocent civilian status. They are advised by international law experts to ensure that they are completely legal. Anything else would destroy their mission.


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > tommywho70x said:
> ...



NO country would rely on other countries doing their inspections for them. NO COUNTRY. Nevertheless, after departure the Flortilla could have easily met up with another boat at sea and stocked it with arms, terrorist, missiles, bombs or anything! 

Also no country in the WORLD would rely on 3rd parties for inspection. 

You make unreasonable demands on Israel and pass them off as reasonable. You call for Israel's destruction and make it like your unbaised. Your a hack and a douche bag.


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## Ringel05 (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You really do live in some polliannish bubble.  Your naivety is astounding.


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



No his naivety is typical and expected. What if Israel did as P F Douche Bag demands? Then tomorrow hundred upon hundred of boats would be streaming into Gaza and without a doubt a good chunk of them would be armed with weapons, missiles, bombs, terrorists and probably WMDs! If Israel didn't do as they did, they they would be utterly incompetent and stupid! 

Bowing to the left will get them nowhere. Those people won't approve of them no matter what they do. They will still call for their destruction, promote propaganda, ignore facts and well push double standards. I say Israel should say the hell with the left and ONLY do what is best for their country. They are Jews! They already lost the PR battle!


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



The British boats were in Iranian waters.  These boats were in International waters.

Slight difference.  Oh wait...actually its a huge difference.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > No you brainless sack of shit.  I am not claiming anything.  I am asking him to provide evidence for WHY they voted them in.
> ...



Here you go. 

Most Palestinians Believe Hamas Should Change its Position on Eliminating Israel - World Public Opinion

Maybe you should do some research on your preconceived beliefs, eh?


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Are you actually this retarded?

You are justifying them keeping chocolate from coming into the ports by saying that they can either blockade weapons or not blockade weapons.

What the fuck does blockading weapons have to do with them blockading chocolate?


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



I saw nothing in that poll about them being happy about the indiscriminate firing of rockets into the Israeli territories. Palestinians are jew hating blood thirsty scum.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Umm, no, you are an idiot who doesn't understand basic politics.  

They wanted to provoke an incident and appear sympathetic.  They obviously wouldn't try to actually smuggle in arms while doing that.  

Israel is just stupid enouigh to believe their own hype and went in there with guns drawn.  And you fuckwits defend their stupidity.  

Israel got played and fucked up.  Badly.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



With all the racist bullshit about how evil Palestinians are, I wonder why nobody takes you rabidly pro-Israeli folk seriously?


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## Ringel05 (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



In the initial exchange between him and I we were not discussing this "freedom flotilla", we were discussing how arms are smuggled in the normal ways.  Maybe you might want to do a little reading before you stick your foot in you mouth, if that's not too difficult for you.  Still can't see past your own nose (except in the presence of a mirror) can you.
The protesters played and fucked up except in the court of public opinion which is what they wanted and strove for in the first place.  Provocation and reaction, not sure they wanted it to go as far as it did but they will make the most of it's propaganda value as evidenced in your posts.


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Well, seeing how Israel has its own country and the Palestinians do not, it seems to me that the pro Israel crowd is taken FAR more seriously. Palis are terrorists, jews are not. End of story.


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## mystic (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Chocolate is very dangerous. Israel is trying to keep the Palestinians from getting too fat. It's for their own good.


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## WillowTree (Jun 1, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Woo Hoo!  Good eating for the fish.
> ...



Nobody makes you hate Jews. You hate Jews because you have been taught to hate Jews. You are a racist.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



No, fuckwit, he specifically referenced free gaza boats...that is to say, boats such as the freedom flotilla.  

Christ.  You can't even understand conversations you are a part of.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Little known facts about Hamas:

Hamas stopped all suicide bombing in 2005.

Rocket fire out of Gaza has been reduced to almost none.

Hamas declared a truce with Israel in 2006. Only 24 Israelis were killed that year. Israel responded by killing almost 400 Palestinians.

Hamas has agreed to the 2002 Arab Initiative that Israel would be recognized by all Arab countries on 1967 borders.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
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Fail.  Pro-Israeli crowd and its asinine positions have no connection to whether Israel is actually a state or not.

And good luck keeping it that way, now that Israel just pissed off its major ally in the region.  The turks have wanted a reason to shy away from Israel, and Israel stupidly just gave it to them.


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Godboy said:
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Yeah, Israel is surely done for now that Turkey is pissed off. Its going to really hurt their feelings to find out a bunch of muslims dont like them.

Are you a muslim jew hater Nik, or just a jew hater?


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## Ringel05 (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Not the exchange he and I were having.  Christ!  Do you always read in what you want?  
You must be blond.


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

Stanly Milgram would have LOVED all the "violence is ok as long as israel is doing the killing" assholes on USMB this week.


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Stanly Milgram would have LOVED all the "violence is ok as long as israel is doing the killing" assholes on USMB this week.



When you arent calling people ******* in the race section, youre here spewing filth about jews. Why should anyone in their right mind take a racist like you seriously? Youre a fucking joke.


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## Neser Boha (Jun 1, 2010)

Very interesting analysis for anyone who is genuinely interested in geopolitical implications of the incident. 

Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion | STRATFOR


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## Neser Boha (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
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It will actually hurt Israel since Turkey was Israel's only ally in the region. Only the extent of that hurt remains to be seen.  

Referring to Turkey as 'a bunch of Muslims' is beyond ignorant.  If you want to be taken seriously in future debates, it behooves you to refrain from making such silly comments.


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

Neser Boha said:


> Very interesting analysis for anyone who is genuinely interested in geopolitical implications of the incident.
> 
> Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion | STRATFOR



Not even close to a neutral view. You can see if from the lines below:



> Gunfire ensued when Israeli naval personnel boarded one of the vessels, and a significant number of the passengers and crew on the ship were killed or wounded.



Conveniently left out:
(1) Warnings messages were given to the ship
(2) The passengers on the ship attacked the soldiers with blunt objects and knives!


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

Neser Boha said:


> It will actually hurt Israel since Turkey was Israel's only ally in the region.


Turkey hasn't been an allie of Israel, since they started to abandon secular society and moved towards Islamic theocracies like the Arab and Persian world.


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## CMike (Jun 1, 2010)

Neser Boha said:


> Godboy said:
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> > Nik said:
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With allies like this...


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Stanly Milgram would have LOVED all the "violence is ok as long as israel is doing the killing" assholes on USMB this week.
> ...




Terms apply even if you don't have the balls to realize that there ARE ******* in this world just as there ARE racist jews.  That you can't be honest about that conveys more about you than it does me even if your weak-ass brain thought crying racist would amount to something.

But hey... feel free to put jews on a pedestal.  They ARE the chosen and, you know, it's not racist when you are busy kissing some ethnic ass by rationalizing a racial hierarchy.


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

CMike said:


> Neser Boha said:
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...is what America says every time israel insists on acting like ironic zionazis.


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting analysis for anyone who is genuinely interested in geopolitical implications of the incident.
> ...



BLUNT OBJECTS AND KNIVES!!!!  OH NOESSZZZZ!!!   CALL OUT THE NUCLEAR ARSENAL!





ANYONE shocked that our forum jews rationalize cluster bombs via thrown rocks yet?


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Shogun said:


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Shut up "****** guy".


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Yup.  He referred to free Gaza boats.

Read the shit you respond to before you respond, fuckwit.


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## Neser Boha (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting analysis for anyone who is genuinely interested in geopolitical implications of the incident.
> ...



Maybe you haven't noticed, but the article did not focus at all at describing or investigating what happened, but rather on the far-reaching implications that the incident will have.  By the way, the author of the piece was born to Hungarian Holocaust survivors.  Nice try at discrediting it.  It is a worthy piece to read.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


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Turkey is a secular state, fuckwit.

As for relations between Turkey and Israel:

They trade more than $2bil of goods annually.
Turkey provides assistance to Israels military.

Think the loss of $2 bil in trading won't hit Israel hard?


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Shogun said:
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you mad?

make me, pussy.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Shogun said:
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> > Stanly Milgram would have LOVED all the "violence is ok as long as israel is doing the killing" assholes on USMB this week.
> ...



I dunno why anyone would take a racist seriously.  What are your views on Palestinians again? 

Pot meet kettle.


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Godboy said:
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Palestinian is not a race you idiot. Hell, given that they dont have a nation, its not even a nationality.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


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Oh, well, that makes it ok then.

Nice non-sequiter there, fuckwit.


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## Neser Boha (Jun 1, 2010)

Shogun said:


> GHook93 said:
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The funny part that while pointing out such things their selective memory kicks in and they all of a sudden 'forget' that it happened in international waters.  And by 'they' I don't mean 'Jews,' but people in general who defend Israel and its actions no matter what.


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


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Are you seriously retarded or what? The jews and palestinians look exactly the same. If i was in fact a racist, how could i be racist towards one, but not the other? 

You are going to need better ammo than this if you want to shut me down.


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
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YEA!!!  THEY DONT COUNT!  UNTERMENSCH!  UNTERMENSCH!





you silly ironic fucker.


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
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oh, so it's JUST A MATTER OF LOOKS, eh?





stop posting.  seriously.  just stop.


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## tommywho70x (Jun 1, 2010)

Ringel05 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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hey dip stick, if you are going to pretend to be some kind of creative critic by using fancy words, you might want to use your spell checker before you post your destructive criticism


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
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Jews and Palestinians look exactly the same?  Wtf?

Are you seriously this fucking stupid?


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## Ringel05 (Jun 1, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Oooo, another spelling Nazi.  Like we don't have enough already.  So I was in a hurry, big deal.  Have anything else that is less then intelligent to add?  If that's all you can comment on you need to back to whatever kiddie board it was you came from and leave the adults to post on this one.


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Nik said:


> Godboy said:
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You think if i took a random Israeli and put him next to a random Palestinian, you are going to be able to indentify them both without error? Christ youre such a fucking liar.

I find it amusing that these are the things you decide to argue about. You got nothing on the actual event, so you try to side track the debate with nonsense and lies.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
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Israeli!=Jew.


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Nik said:
> 
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> > Godboy said:
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please.. CALL SOMEONE ELSE A RACIST AGAIN!





LIIIEEESSSS!!!!


(yea, he's mad)


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## tommywho70x (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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since my last post last night, this thread seems to have gone the way of most threads on volatile breaking stories on this board --- partisan squabbling rather than meticulous fact gathering, objective commentary and respectful, intelligent debate. 

doesn't happen here much. in my quick reread, your posts look to be some of  the only ones still containing any useful facts and you don't often fall out of the boat when your dander gets raised.

we don't agree on a whole lot but at least you communicate intelligently and respectfully with me. i appreciate that.

i'm starting to wonder about what tinmore's motivations are myself. 

he posts articles that are useful and relevant and then doesn't actually comment on the events, but does get into that fuck you, fuck you back shit that disintegrates these discussions. when i ask him a question in a thread, i'd have to go back and look to see if he has ever answered.

as for what this thread is supposed to be about, this is beginning to look like benny and his thugs got sucker punched by this activist group. 

a group of unarmed protesters provokes an armed response for the media effect --- right out of the anti-terrorism response recommendations that came out of the rand corporation in the 80's (one of the authors was brian jenkins, noted "security" consultant)


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Godboy said:
> 
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In your twisted little world, racism is the same as being unable to identify every ethnicity without error? You realize i can EASILY test every person reading this thread by posting pictures of black people, asians, arabs, etc. from different places around the world, and seeing who can indentify which region they come from correctly?

If im understanding you correctly, anyone that failed this test would be a racist? Is this your position, and are you sure you dont want to rethink your retard logic?

How about we just stick to the topic and avoid your humiliation.


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## tommywho70x (Jun 1, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Stanly Milgram would have LOVED all the "violence is ok as long as israel is doing the killing" assholes on USMB this week.



maybe you can tell me why armed israelis are called commandos and armed arabs are called terrorists, even if they're only armed with a stick or rock?


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> Shogun said:
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I would LOVE to see you make such a thread, lil guy.  You might just discover a thing or two about your "they all looks the same" mentality.



but please... tell me more about which of us is being humiliated here.


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## GHook93 (Jun 1, 2010)

OK I will answer respectful! 

If any boat tries to dock any country without permission, they are sure to get boarded and arrested. EVERY COUNTRY without exception. Upon boarding those ships, if the police are attacked, then they will be met with force. Interesting note: that all five other ships were boarded and none resisted and no incidents. 



tommywho70x said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Ringel05 said:
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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That is the brilliance of the Free Gaza movement. No matter what Israel does it will be wrong.


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## tommywho70x (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> OK I will answer respectful!
> 
> If any boat tries to dock any country without permission, they are sure to get boarded and arrested. EVERY COUNTRY without exception. Upon boarding those ships, if the police are attacked, then they will be met with force. Interesting note: that all five other ships were boarded and none resisted and no incidents.
> 
> ...



you may have noticed a similar comment from me earlier in this discussion on that very point. 

also thanks for that tidbit about the other boats, too. the way the partisan press of both sides distort stories like this to fit their own agendas, omitting little facts like that will spin the story.

my only unanswered question about the israeli action is whether what happened erupted when a standard issue, normal boarding went south because of the arabs resisting or if the boarding was planned with the intent of having something like that happen?

the reason i'm pushing on that is that AP put it on the wire describing it as a "pre-dawn commando raid". if nothing else, pre-dawn is an unusual hour for boarding a vessel that's been sitting in protected waters for days.

pre-dawn is the time to attack and catch your enemy sleeping.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting analysis for anyone who is genuinely interested in geopolitical implications of the incident.
> ...



So?


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## Godboy (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> GHook93 said:
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> > Neser Boha said:
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So... now clear thinking individuals wont feel bad for them. They obviously had it coming.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

Godboy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Do you mean the stupid goons who attacked the ship? No, I don't feel bad for them.


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## Liability (Jun 1, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Godboy said:
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Hey, imbecile.  They DIDN'T "attack" any ship.  They BOARDED the ship which is kind of the point when a nation-state sets up a blockade during time of war, you schmuck.

And they weren't the goons.  The fuckers who attacked them were the goons.  "Peace activists" my ass.    They were agent provocateurs.  And that some of them got killed is NOT unexpected.  It's kind of what happens when you try to run a blockade and attack the boarding party.  Fuck them.   They got what they were literally begging for.  And nobody should give a rat's patootie that they ended up dead.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2010)

Liability said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Godboy said:
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OK, if you say so.


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## Nik (Jun 1, 2010)

Liability said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Godboy said:
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Actually there are statements out now that the Israelis threw tear gas on the boats before boarding them.

Oh.  And yes, boarding is considered an attack.  Its like saying "no officer...I wasn't trying to hijack his car...I just wanted to check it out...."


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## Dante (Jun 2, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> YouTube - Gaza Freedom Flotilla Attacked, 2 killed 50 Injured - Israeli Murder and Pirac/url]



Hey!  How about some: Incoming perspective...?


[youtube]bU12KW-XyZE[/youtube]


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## Dante (Jun 2, 2010)

mystic said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
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not true. 

Incoming perspective...


[youtube]bU12KW-XyZE[/youtube]


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## tommywho70x (Jun 2, 2010)

having been there so many times when the police or military entered an otherwise peaceful assembly and wanted the people to either disperse or surrender a person or persons for arrest, i know that the safest and healthiest response --- no matter how wrong you think they may be --- is instant compliance with all orders.

resist and there will be mayhem. freeze or flee. and you can't always flee.

a helicopter is not the usual way an inspection party boards a vessel in international waters. 
the israelis intended violence. that was an assault team and the boarding had nothing to do with the blockade. 

the only question remaining in my mind is whether the freedom flotilla people resisted the israeli incursion intentionally as a publicity stunt to make israel look bad or was this a coincidence that occurred due to a failure in their non-violence training?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2010)

tommywho70x said:


> having been there so many times when the police or military entered an otherwise peaceful assembly and wanted the people to either disperse or surrender a person or persons for arrest, i know that the safest and healthiest response --- no matter how wrong you think they may be --- is instant compliance with all orders.
> 
> resist and there will be mayhem. freeze or flee. and you can't always flee.
> 
> ...



The activists did not take the safest route, but what kind of a world would we live in if everyone rolled over for illegitimate authority?


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## Godboy (Jun 2, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> tommywho70x said:
> 
> 
> > having been there so many times when the police or military entered an otherwise peaceful assembly and wanted the people to either disperse or surrender a person or persons for arrest, i know that the safest and healthiest response --- no matter how wrong you think they may be --- is instant compliance with all orders.
> ...



I think you are confusing your personal opinions of how things should be, with reality. To anyone that matters, Israel is absolutely legitimate. I mean when the leader of Israel is personally invited to meet with the President of the United States, or speak at the United Nations or be a member of the United Nations, it doesnt get more legitimate than that.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2010)

Godboy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > tommywho70x said:
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But what authority did he have over those civilians. Only what he self proclaims.


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## Godboy (Jun 2, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Godboy said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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What authority do terrorists obey? If the answer is no one, then obviously Israel has to do what they have to in order to protect its citizens.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2010)

Godboy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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And the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from their occupiers.


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## Godboy (Jun 2, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Godboy said:
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They lost any moral high ground decades ago. They have the right to jack fucking shit now. Besides, you dont call the people attacking Israel with rockets "defenders". They should be thankful Israel even allows them to live in Gaza... i wouldnt.


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## CMike (Jun 2, 2010)

It was an obvious set up.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2010)

Godboy said:


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Hamas has never attacked anyone outside of Palestine.


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## Godboy (Jun 2, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Godboy said:
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Palestine doesnt exist dip shit, but lets suppose for a moment that it did. Every time they launched rockets into Israel would be considered attacking someone "outside palestine". Your stupidity is amazing. 

I wonder, how many times are you wrong about things each day? As far as i can tell, its ALOT.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2010)

Godboy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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There is no border, for example, between Gaza and Sderot. Both are inside Palestine's defined and undisputed borders. Neither is inside any Israeli border.


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## mystic (Jun 3, 2010)

Dante said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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Dude, are you high? What does that video have to do with "_They were in international waters and were not going to Israel_" ??? So how is it not true again? 
Maybe you were trying to respond to another post? You know it makes you look very foolish when your rebuttal has nothing to do with the subject matter.  It's not sex, Dante. Open your eyes before you open your mouth.


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## AllieBaba (Jun 3, 2010)

Dante said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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They were violently ramming a blockade. Fuck them.


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## Liability (Jun 3, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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FLATLY dishonest.

Yes they have attacked people in ISRAEL.


February 4, 2008: A 73-year-old woman was killed and 40 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up in a shopping center in the southern city of Dimona. A second bomber was shot by a police officer who noticed him reaching for his explosive belt. Both Hamas armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and Fatah's armed wing, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack. 

January 24, 2008: Two terrorists entered the Mekor Hayim High School Yeshiva in Kfar Etzion, south of Jerusalem, and stabbed two students. The terrorists were killed by two of the counselors in the room. The Izaddin al-Kassam's Martyrs Brigades, the Hamas military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack. 

January 13, 2005: Six Israelis were killed and five other civilians were wounded in a double suicide bombing at the Karni crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. The two suicide bombers used a very large explosive device to blast through a defensive wall that separates the Israeli and Palestinian sides at the crossing. Following the blast, the bombers crossed into the Israeli side, carrying explosives on their bodies, which they detonated. Hamas and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed joint responsiblity for the attack. 

August 31, 2004: Sixteen people, including a 3 year old, were killed and about 100 injured when two buses in Beersheba were attacked within minutes of each other by suicide bombers. Hamas claimed responsibility.

March 14, 2004: Ten people were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide bombing in the area of the Ashdod Port. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack. 

January 14, 2004: A female suicide bomber killed four people and wounded 20 at the Erez Crossing in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and the Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. 

August 12, 2003: Suicide bombers killed two Israelis and wounded more than a dozen people in two attacks within a half hour of each other, one at a shopping mall in the Tel Aviv suburb of Rosh Haayin and the other at the entrance of the West Bank town of Ariel. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the Rosh Haayin bombing and Hamas claimed to have carried out the Ariel attack. 

June 20, 2003: An Israeli motorist was shot dead and three of his passengers were wounded when their car was fired upon by Palestinian terrorists near Ofra, north of Ramallah. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

June 11, 2003: Sixteen people were killed and more than 80 wounded when a suicide bomber blew up a Jerusalem city bus during the afternoon rush hour. The bomber was disguised as an ultra-orthodox Jew. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

May 19, 2003: A Palestinian suicide bomber on a bicycle attacked an Israeli checkpoint on the Gaza Strip, wounding three Israeli soldiers. Hamas claimed responsibility. 

May 18, 2003: Seven people were killed and more than 20 wounded when a suicide bomber blew up a Jerusalem city bus at the start of the Israeli work week. The bomber was disguised as an ultra-orthodox Jew. Soon after, a suicide bomber carrying explosives and dressed in the garb of an ultra-orthodox Jew was stopped at a roadblock. The Palestinian detonated his explosives, killing only himself. Hamas claimed responsibility in both attacks. 

May 17, 2003: A pregnant Israeli woman and her husband were killed when a suicide bomber detonated himself next to them in a public square in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility. 

April 30, 2003: Three people were killed and dozens wounded in a suicide bombing at a beachfront pub in Tel Aviv. The Fatah Tanzim and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out as a joint operation. 

March 7, 2003 - Two Israelis were killed and five were wounded when armed terrorists infiltrated the community of Kiryat Arba and attacked during Shabbat. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 5, 2003: Twenty two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas all claimed responsibility for the attacks. 

November 21: Eleven people were killed and 47 injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber exploded on a bus filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood in Jerusalem. The bus was traveling toward the center of the city during the morning rush hour. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

October 27: Two Israeli police officers and a soldier were killed, and 20 bystanders were wounded in a suicide bombing at a gas station near the settlement of Ariel in the West Bank. The two officers and soldier were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. Hamas and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. 

September 19: Six people were killed and 60 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb on one of Tel Aviv's busiest streets, in a bus opposite the Great Synagogue. Many of the wounded were in critical or serious condition. Both Islamic Jihad and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

August 4: Nine people were killed and about 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus at the Meron junction in northern Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

July 31: Eight people were killed and 86 injured, 14 seriously, when a bomb went off at the Frank Sinatra Cafeteria on the Hebrew University Mt. Scopus campus during the busy lunchtime rush. Israeli authorities reported that the explosive device had been planted ahead of time, with the terrorist possibly detonating it by remote control. Five Americans were among the dead. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

June 18: Nineteen people were killed and more than 70 were injured, in a suicide bombing on a bus just outside of Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was traveling from Gilo to Jerusalem and had many students on board. In addition to the bus, at least two other vehicles were severely damaged in the attack. Hamas claimed responsibility. 

June 8: Three Israelis, including a pregnant woman, were killed, and five were injured when an armed terrorist inflitrated the community of Carmei Tzur, south of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsiblity for the attack. 

April 27: Three Palestinian gunmen disguised as Israeli Army soldiers cut through the perimeter fence of Adora, a settlement on the West Bank, and entered several homes, firing on residents in their bedrooms. Four people, including a 5-year-old girl, were killed in the attacks. Another seven were injured, including one seriously. Both Hamas and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility. 

March 31: Fourteen people were killed and more than 40 injured in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza gas station restaurant near a shopping mall. Several of the injured were in serious to critical condition. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

March 27: Twenty-two people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

March 19: 1st Lt. Tal Zemach, 20, of Kibbutz Hulda, was killed and three soldiers were injured when Palestinian terrorists opened fire at the paratroop training compound in the Jordan Valley. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. 

March 9: Eleven people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded at in a crowded cafe at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets in the Rehavia neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
  All bullet point items above are quoted from Major Terrorist Attacks in Israel

And that damnable list, proving that you are a liar, PFT, goes on.  

Why can't you be honest?


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## Biggles (Jun 3, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Godboy said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Where do you get your information??  You are quite wrong.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2010)

Liability said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> 
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There is no border, for example, between Gaza and Sderot. Both are inside Palestine's defined and undisputed borders. Neither is inside any Israeli border.

I believe that some research would bring the same results for the places mentioned.


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## Liability (Jun 3, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


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A little honesty (instead of your usual fare of propaganda and denial of objective reality) would inform you that Jerusalem is inside Israel.  And there's not even a dispute that Beersheba, for example, is in Israel.

You remain quite dishonest.  Factually speaking, your posts are a void when it comes to accuracy.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2010)

Liability said:


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Accuracy:

The Armistice Agreement of 1949 defines the status of Israel as of that time. It took place after the end of the Palestine Mandate, after UN Resolution 181, after Israel declared itself to be a state, and after the 1948 war.

The armistice was called by UN resolution. There was no surrender. No country lost any land in that war.

All of the internationally recognized borders mentioned were between Lebanon and Palestine, Syria and Palestine, Jordan and Palestine, and Egypt and Palestine. No borders were mentioned for Israel.

The "green line" (that was specifically stated to NOT be national or political borders) defined areas of occupation. It did not change Palestine's internationally recognized borders.

The cease fire was between "Israeli forces" and the forces of the other countries. "Israel" was not mentioned.

Article I in all the agreements started with: "With a view to promoting the return of permanent peace in Palestine..."

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949


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## Liability (Jun 3, 2010)

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So, to get to the nub of it more quickly than your pantload of propaganda would get us there:  your contention is that there are no borders for the State of Israel so nothing can occur "inside" Israel by your dishonest daffynition.

As I suggested, you are merely a dishonest propagandist.  Your posts are of absolutely no value.


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## CMike (Jun 3, 2010)

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So what? Israel became larger since that time, mainly as a result of arab wars against Israel.


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## Nik (Jun 3, 2010)

Dante said:


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> > YouTube - Gaza Freedom Flotilla Attacked, 2 killed 50 Injured - Israeli Murder and Pirac/url]
> ...




Thanks for a 60 second video that has no context to it released by IDF forces that we've all seen over and over again.

Any evidence as to what happened before that?  or after that?  

Some protestors are saying Israelis threw bombs onto the ships before boarding it.  Hmm...I wonder why Israel didn't release the footage of what happened before they boarded the ships....


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2010)

Liability said:


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My post was brief and concise. The links were to prove that my critique was accurate.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2010)

CMike said:


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Larger than what? How?


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## CMike (Jun 3, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u61vCC7fBgk&feature=related]YouTube - Fighting Wild Turkeys[/ame]


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## CMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Nik said:


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And of course there is nothing to contradict the videos from the gobbling Turkeys.

The video speaks for itself.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2010)

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Yes it does speak for itself.

It shows civilians defending themselves from an Israeli attack.


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## CMike (Jun 3, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwgz1WOM8Mc&feature=fvst]YouTube - Out in the Woods - Michigan turkey hunting with a bow[/ame]


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## CMike (Jun 3, 2010)

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You must be looking at the edited Hamas verson on Al Jeezera.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2010)

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The attackee views it as an attack and does not care about the stupid excuse of the attacker.


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## Godboy (Jun 3, 2010)

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IF what you say is true, and the Israelis attacked peaceful civilians at sea, murdering 9 of them and wounding 50, then we will see Israel prosecuted for war crimes. Ill bet my membership on USMB that that will NEVER happen. Sorry, you are wrong, we are right and in the end the world will agree with us, not lies from Hamas and its sympathizers.

Suck it biatch.


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## Nik (Jun 3, 2010)

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Israel confiscated all of it.  Of course there isn't.


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## Nik (Jun 3, 2010)

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Really?  Please specify exactly what court would have jurisdiction to prosecute Israel for those crimes.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 4, 2010)

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Armed commandos in ski masks board your ship in the dark with the stated mission to steal, kidnap, destroy, and possibly kill. How can you say with a straight face that this was not an attack?

If someone attacks you, does it matter to you who it is? Do you care what excuse they may have for attacking you? No, you defend yourself.

I remember Ruby Ridge where a man killed a Federal Agent. Of course the government prosecuted him for murder. The jury came back with a not guilty because it was self defense. Self defense is a basic human right even if the attacker is a Federal Agent with excuses or some country with excuses.

As far a prosecution, it can range from South Africa to Pinochet.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 4, 2010)

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Show me a map of Israel. Do not use Palestine's borders and don't use the 1949 armistice lines. Only use Israel's defined borders. No one can attack Israel or attack inside Israel if no one knows where it is.


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## Liability (Jun 4, 2010)

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That's funny.  Those attacking Israel and Israelis sure seem to know where to send their homicide/suicide shitheads and the missiles, etc.

How the hell would one show a map of Israel without showing the alleged "Palestine's borders," you imbecile?    That's like saying "show me a map of the United States, but don't show any borders with Canada or Mexico."  Since Israel bumps up against the alleged Palestinian "state" and a whole bunch of hostile to moderately unfriendly Arab nations, the map of Israel will necessarily delineate its borders, retard.

Try this one (and I couldn't give a rat's ass if you object to the inclusion of land annexed by the victorious Israel after the 6 day war).


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## Shai (Jun 4, 2010)

Flotilla passengers: Go back to Auschwitz

audio: IDF soldiers warn flotilla vessels they are nearing area under naval blockade, latter respond with anti-Semitic slurs 

Ynet Published:  06.04.10, 19:56 / Israel News  


The IDF released on Friday an audio reproduction of the moments before Monday's raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla. 


In it, the soldiers can be heard warning the flotilla that its vessels are nearing an area under naval blockade. They are answered by calls of "Go back to Auschwitz" and "Don't forget 9/11 guys". 

Sorry i cant post the link because i dont have 15 posts but  you can listen to this in youtube under - "Mavi Marmara to Israeli Navy: "We're Helping Arabs Go Against the US, Don't Forget 9/11 Guys'


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 4, 2010)

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You won't find a map with Israel's borders because it has none. When Israel declared statehood, it did not define its borders. This is reflected in the 1949 Armistice Agreements where only the borders of Palestine and its neighboring countries were mentioned. Palestine is mentioned many times. There is no mention on an Israel. The armistice line or "green line" or "1967 border" is used to designate Israel but this is no border it merely designates areas of occupation. It does not change Palestine's borders.


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## al Haq (Jun 4, 2010)

> *Rachel Corrie boarded, equipment jammed*
> 
> Written by Free Gaza team | 05 June 2010
> Posted in Press releases
> ...



Linkie:
Freegaza - News section


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlfYDPhFdtE]YouTube - israel Intercepts New Gaza Aid Ship - Rachel Corrie[/ame]


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## Liability (Jun 5, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> YouTube - israel Intercepts New Gaza Aid Ship - Rachel Corrie



Oh good.  Irish assholes trying to make a propaganda piece for Hamas.  How precious.

I doubt this one will result in blood-letting.  I hope not.

But if push were to come to shove, Israel would be within its rights to sink that fucking boat.  And what kind of schmucks name their boat after a dead retard?


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## CMike (Jun 5, 2010)

Those yellow lines are borders


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## Liability (Jun 5, 2010)

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It takes a special kind of moron (and PTF is certainly "special") to claim that you won't find a map of Israel in a post written directly under (and quoting another post containing) a Map of Israel.



If the original borders were undefined, so what? They no longer are.

OUR national borders have fluctuated too, you mutant retard.



According to the imbecile that *IS* PTF, that would mean he couldn't find a map of the U.S.A.


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## al Haq (Jun 5, 2010)

Shai said:


> Flotilla passengers: Go back to Auschwitz
> 
> audio: IDF soldiers warn flotilla vessels they are nearing area under naval blockade, latter respond with anti-Semitic slurs
> 
> ...




IDF propaganda producers are morons. 




> *Israel under fire for doctoring flotilla recordings*
> 
> By Mya Guarnieri
> 
> ...



Linkie:
Maan News Agency: Israel under fire for doctoring flotilla recordings

And more at Max Blumenthal:
IDF Releases Apparently Doctored Flotilla Audio; Press Reports As Fact


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## CMike (Jun 5, 2010)

Gotta love your sources


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2010)

CMike said:


> Those yellow lines are borders



Yes, and if you read the links you will find that they are Palestinian borders. They are not Israel's borders.


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## CMike (Jun 5, 2010)




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## Liability (Jun 5, 2010)

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Palestine is the fictional state that borders Israel.  So the borders of that fictional state are also Israel's borders (on that side of Palestine, that is).

Sorry reality is such an overwhelming obstacle for you, pinhead.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2010)

Liability said:


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Perhaps you should read the documents on the 1949 Armistice Agreements. Your statement conflicts with their findings.


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## Liability (Jun 5, 2010)

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Perhaps you should quote and link the relevant parts to formulate a coherent argument, since it appears that you don't understand the things you read.   You also seem to focus only on old agreements that have been modified over time by a number of factors, including war.

What you consider a technicality worthy of being trumpeted is therefore actually nothing but historical flotsam and jetsom worthy of no actual concern.   The borders of Israel may not be deemed by some Arab states to be "de jure" borders, but that is a huge irrelevancy.  Again, those fuckers in Hamas know where to lob their fucking missiles and send their scumbag murderous homicide/suicide camel-suckers.  So even if a liar like you can't figure it out, the truth is the rest of the world already well knows where Israel's borders are.

It  is no longer the borders that matter.  It is the very existence of Israel that so irritates those mindless selfish bloodthirsty savage scumbag goat-fuckers.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2010)

Liability said:


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> You also seem to focus only on old agreements that have been modified over time by a number of factors, including war.



Perhaps you could link to some documents that would show some of these modifications. I am not opposed to updating my knowledge of the conflict.


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## al Haq (Jun 6, 2010)

CMike said:


> Gotta love your sources



The source is the IDF - their three different versions are up on YouTube for anyone to see.

*Version #1 *
Israeli Navy Addresses a Ship in the Flotilla and Offers it to Dock in the Ashdod Port
released by the IDF on *May 31*:

[youtube]qKOmLP4yHb4&[/youtube]

This video shows the Israeli soldier speaking into the microphone.  You can see that his mouth matches the words being said, and there are no edits within the clip:

*IDF soldier:* Mavi Marmara, you are approaching an area of hostility which is under a naval blockade.  The Gaza area, coastal region and Gaza harbor are closed to all maritime traffic.  The Israeli government supports delivery of humanitarian supplies to the civilian population in the Gaza Strip, and invites you to enter the Ashdod Port. Delivery of the supplies in accordance with the authoritys regulations will be through the formal land crossings and under your observation after which, you can return to your home ports aboard the vessels on which you arrived."

*Reply from ship:* Negative, negative. Our destination is Gaza.

_Note the absence of any Auschwitz or 9/11 remarks._

***​
A few days later, caught like a deer in the headlights by the world's overwhelmingly negative reaction to the incident, the IDF's story starts to morph: 

*Version #2 *
""Flotilla Ship to Israeli Navy: "We're Helping Arabs Go Against the US, Don't Forget 9/11 Guys" released by the IDF on *June 4* 
[youtube]pxY7Q7CvQPQ[/youtube]

The IDF claimed that this was the transmission recorded from the Mavi Marmara:

*IDF Soldier:* This is the Israeli Navy, you are approaching an area which is under a naval blockade

*First male voice:* Shut up. Go back to Auschwitz.

*Huwaida Arraf*: We have permission from the Gaza Port Authority to enter

*Second male voice (with odd Southern accent):* Were helping Arabs go against the US, dont forget 9/11 guys

_Note that the video of the IDF soldier from Version #1 has now been replaced with a still photo.  

And note that Huwaida Arraf was not even on board the Mavi Marmara - she was on Challenger One.  In an interview with Maan News, she said that "while she might have spoken of having permission from the Gaza Port Authority on a previous attempt to break the blockade, she is certain that she did not say it on Monday morning. 'When they radioed us, we were still 100 miles away,' she explained."_

***​
After internationals begin to point out the obvious discrepancies between the two videos, the IDF releases Version #3:

*Version #3*
""Unedited Radio Transmission Between Gaza Flotilla and Israeli Navy " released by the IDF on *June 5* 
[youtube]9dE2StbDL_Q[/youtube]

_Note that there is now neither video nor still photo - just a title screen.

And note that the IDF has now revised its story even further, retracting its original claim that the source of the audio was the Mavi Marmara.  The IDF now claims the audio was recorded from "an open channel" and that "the specific ship or ships" responding to the Israeli Navy "could not be identified."_


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 6, 2010)

al Haq said:


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How many people on this board are stupid enough to believe anything Israel says?


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## al Haq (Jun 6, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> How many people on this board are stupid enough to believe anything Israel says?



Quite a few.  

Some will be along shortly to recite some more IDF press releases.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 6, 2010)

Liability said:


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> It  is no longer the borders that matter.  It is the very existence of Israel that so irritates those mindless selfish bloodthirsty savage scumbag goat-fuckers



It does matter. Israel has not legally acquired any land that it can place a border around. That is significant.


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