# Hate crime?



## LilOlLady

HATE CRIME?

The killing of an illegal alien by two white kids in Penn may or may not have been a hate crime. Just because racial slurs were used do not mean it was about race it could very well have been about *illegal immigration *and people are *angry, frustrated, hopless and helpless.*
The* US government should have been on trial *and not the two boys because if immigration laws were enforced we would not have illegal aliens in this country *taking jobs, lowering wages and draining the system* that the American tax payer has worked so hard for and we would not have a lot of angry people. It is not going to get better but worse with *Immigration Reform.*

I do not believe this was *racial hatred* but *hatred toward illegal aliens *that the American people are helpless to do anything about and Obama want to legalize all of them. And bring more into the country.


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## jillian

ohhhhhhhhh... so it's ok to beat "illegal immigrants" to death.

I wonder if they asked for their papers first... you know, to check if they were legal.

Damn, it must suck being you. How do you get out of bed in the morning being so full of hate?


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## William Joyce

LilOlLady said:


> HATE CRIME?
> 
> The killing of an illegal alien by two white kids in Penn may or may not have been a hate crime. Just because racial slurs were used do not mean it was about race it could very well have been about *illegal immigration *and people are *angry, frustrated, hopless and helpless.*
> The* US government should have been on trial *and not the two boys because if immigration laws were enforced we would not have illegal aliens in this country *taking jobs, lowering wages and draining the system* that the American tax payer has worked so hard for and we would not have a lot of angry people. It is not going to get better but worse with *Immigration Reform.*
> 
> I do not believe this was *racial hatred* but *hatred toward illegal aliens *that the American people are helpless to do anything about and Obama want to legalize all of them. And bring more into the country.



Amnesty is the biggest hate crime of all -- against white people.


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## JBeukema

all hate crime laws are bullshit


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## KittenKoder

The funny thing is, hate crime laws are part of the problem, they are creating more separation of people and dissension toward the groups they protect than they deter. But it's only part of the problem, there are others.


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## raceright

This e-mail does contain wording that is meant to express an 
open opinion to a major problem in the USA ...   It 
is estimated that only 11% of those receiving this e-mail 
will read it all the way to the end.  In addition, it 
is estimated that only 1% of non-white color will read 
this past this point and 99% will blow it away because of 
the 
title.



















It 
is a shame this sentiment exists when we tell the world 
that the USA is the best 
place to Live, Worship, Work, and 
Play....









___________________________________









"WHITE 
" Pride"









This is great.   I have been wondering about why Whites are 
racists, and no other race is.....






Proud to be White





Michael Richards makes his point..............






Michael Richards better known as Kramer from TVs Seinfeld does make a good point.





This was his defense speech in court after making racial 
comments in his comedy act.  
He makes some very interesting points....




Someone finally said it.  How many are actually paying attention to this?  There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc.








And then there are just Americans.  You pass me on the street 
and sneer in my direction.  You call me 'White boy,' 'Cracker,' 'Honkey,' 'Whitey,' 'Caveman'... and that's OK.









But when I call you, ******, ****, Towel head, Sand-******, Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, or Chink ... You call me a 
racist.






You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you... so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?






You have the United Negro College Fund. You have 
Martin Luther King Day.









You have Black History Month.  You have Cesar Chavez Day.






You have Yom Hashoah.  You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.





You have the NAACP.  You have BET... If we had WET (White 
Entertainment Television), we'd be racists.  If we had a 
White Pride Day, you would call us racists.





0A


If we had White History Month, we'd be racists.






If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR 
lives, we'd be racists.





We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of 
Commerce.  Wonder who pays for that??








A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.






If we had a college fund that only gave white students 
scholarships... You know we'd be racists..








There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the 
US ..  Yet if there were 'White colleges', that would be a racist 
college.






In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights.  If we marched for our race and 
rights, you would call us racists.





You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it.  But when we announce our 
white pride, you call us racists.








You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.






I am proud... But you call me a racist.






Why is it that only whites can be racists??






There is nothing improper about this e-mail.  Let's see which 
of you are proud enough to send it on.  I sadly don't think many will.  That's why we have  LOST most of OUR 
RIGHTS in this country.  We won't stand up for ourselves!









Age, skill, wisdom, and a little treachery will always overcome youth and arrogance!



Democracy is not a spectator sport!Lead,Follow or get out of the way!


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## William Joyce

I think whites should stand up for themselves.  There are millions of decent whites who'd never join the KKK but at the same time hate what's happening to them.  Who speaks for them?


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## Sarah G

LilOlLady said:


> HATE CRIME?
> 
> The killing of an illegal alien by two white kids in Penn may or may not have been a hate crime. Just because racial slurs were used do not mean it was about race it could very well have been about *illegal immigration *and people are *angry, frustrated, hopless and helpless.*
> The* US government should have been on trial *and not the two boys because if immigration laws were enforced we would not have illegal aliens in this country *taking jobs, lowering wages and draining the system* that the American tax payer has worked so hard for and we would not have a lot of angry people. It is not going to get better but worse with *Immigration Reform.*
> 
> I do not believe this was *racial hatred* but *hatred toward illegal aliens *that the American people are helpless to do anything about and Obama want to legalize all of them. And bring more into the country.



Are you on medication?  This just doesn't seem like rational thought to me.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Murder itself is no act of love. Now sticking a word in front of it and creating special laws to deal with interpreting the motive behind the act, well meaning as it seems, is ridiculous . It's meant to send a message to the minority community, not to stop crime, and that little bit of pandering, well meaning as it would seem, is a waste of time and money. Crime is the issue, not what prefix some dingaling sticks in front of it.


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## Immanuel

LilOlLady said:


> HATE CRIME?
> 
> The killing of an illegal alien by two white kids in Penn may or may not have been a hate crime. Just because racial slurs were used do not mean it was about race it could very well have been about *illegal immigration *and people are *angry, frustrated, hopless and helpless.*
> The* US government should have been on trial *and not the two boys because if immigration laws were enforced we would not have illegal aliens in this country *taking jobs, lowering wages and draining the system* that the American tax payer has worked so hard for and we would not have a lot of angry people. It is not going to get better but worse with *Immigration Reform.*
> 
> I do not believe this was &#8220;*racial hatred*&#8221; but *hatred toward illegal aliens *that the American people are helpless to do anything about and Obama want to legalize all of them. And bring more into the country.



The government should be on trial?  Look, I don't much like immigration policy at the moment, but from what I read in your post, those two white kids murdered an illegal alien.  You can't blame the government for that.

Edit: Ah, hell, I take that back, it's all President Obama's fault.  

Immie


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

We can't excuse murder, even if the person murdered is someone some of us find unsympathetic. But creating a special category for people that murder that just coincidentally trample  political correct notions, is pointless. No don't create special categories. Perhaps, that even includes people that immigrate illegally. They aren't being punished for being Hispanic, or poor, or that crap, they can immigrate legally. But, they don't. They  expect to be held to a different standard, as well. Well, no special treatment, either way, all things being equal. I can understand anger at illegals,  but killing  anyone is beyond the pale. Unacceptable. And we all should condemn murder.


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## JBeukema

How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man? It isn't. Why is ignoring international immigration law OK for Latin Americans? With all the confusion about morality and all that, I almost forgot to ask. It's a simple question, really. It's why we are on this board, every mother loving one of us. God bless us all, tiny Tim.


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## Toome

Murder is already a hate crime.  No need to give it a "special status."

Imagine this scenario:
Two cops at a murder scene.  First one says, "He was shot one time, in the chest, probably died instantly."

The other cop answers by wiping his forehead and saying, "Then it wasn't a hate crime.  Whew!"


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## Sky Dancer

KittenKoder said:


> The funny thing is, hate crime laws are part of the problem, they are creating more separation of people and dissension toward the groups they protect than they deter. But it's only part of the problem, there are others.



Hate crime legislation was needed to stop the lynching of blacks and the acts of domestic terrorism inflicted on blacks by the KKK.


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## Sky Dancer

JBeukema said:


> How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man?



If the white man is killed randomly because of the color of his skin and for no other reason, it's a hate crime, especially if the crime is used to make other white people afraid and drive them out of a neighborhood.


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## Toome

Sky Dancer said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the white man is killed randomly because of the color of his skin and for no other reason, it's a hate crime, especially if the crime is used to make other white people afraid and drive them out of a neighborhood.
Click to expand...


That's a stretch.

Is a husband who kills his wife's lover guilty of a hate crime?  Is a wife who hires a hitman to kill her husband guilty of a hate crime?  Is a businessman who kills his partner in order to get a promotion guilty of a hate crime?

Sorry, I don't see the difference.  Murder is the ultimate expression of hate, even when it involves a contract killer because that person has to be pretty hateful to kill without remorse.

Your mileage may vary.


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## JBeukema

Sky Dancer said:


> Hate crime legislation was needed to stop the lynching of blacks and the acts of domestic terrorism inflicted on blacks by the KKK.


Wrong. All that was needed was to get the democrats- er, the KKK out of office in the South





Toome said:


> That's a stretch.
> 
> Is a husband who kills his wife's lover guilty of a hate crime?


Yes, because it makes other men who sleep with married women afraid. That's a significant portion of society that now must live in fear of being discovered



> Is a wife who hires a hitman to kill her husband guilty of a hate crime?


Yes, because it makes all men live in fear that their wife could do the same



> Is a businessman who kills his partner in order to get a promotion guilty of a hate crime?


Yes, because it makes other businessmen live in fear that the same could happen to them


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## Toome

JBeukema said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate crime legislation was needed to stop the lynching of blacks and the acts of domestic terrorism inflicted on blacks by the KKK.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. All that was needed was to get the democrats- er, the KKK out of office in the South
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toome said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a stretch.
> 
> Is a husband who kills his wife's lover guilty of a hate crime?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, because it makes other men who sleep with married women afraid. That's a significant portion of society that now must live in fear of being discovered
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is a wife who hires a hitman to kill her husband guilty of a hate crime?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, because it makes all men live in fear that their wife could do the same
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is a businessman who kills his partner in order to get a promotion guilty of a hate crime?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, because it makes other businessmen live in fear that the same could happen to them
Click to expand...


I wonder if Killing Commies for Christ's Sake is still regarded as an act of love by Army *RANGERS*?

(Hooah!)


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## Sky Dancer

Toome said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the white man is killed randomly because of the color of his skin and for no other reason, it's a hate crime, especially if the crime is used to make other white people afraid and drive them out of a neighborhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's a stretch.
> 
> Is a husband who kills his wife's lover guilty of a hate crime?  Is a wife who hires a hitman to kill her husband guilty of a hate crime?  Is a businessman who kills his partner in order to get a promotion guilty of a hate crime?
> 
> Sorry, I don't see the difference.  Murder is the ultimate expression of hate, even when it involves a contract killer because that person has to be pretty hateful to kill without remorse.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...


Hate crime is crime of intimidation toward an entire class of people.  Genocide is the largest form of hate crime, followed by terrorist acts.

We could think of hate crime as an act of terrorism toward an individual or single family.

When someone burns a church down with children inside because they hate the color of the skin of the attendants or they hate Christians, that's a hate crime.

When someone stalks gay people as they leave a gay club and attacks them for being gay, that's a hate crime.  Matthew Shephard's murder was a hate crime.  Mulageta Seraw's murder by sknheads was a hate crime.

Hate crimes are intended to hurt and intimidate someone because of their race, ethnicity, national origin, religious, sexual orientation, or disability.

Here is a resource:
Of all crimes, hate crimes are most likely to create or exacerbate tensions, which can trigger larger community-wide racial conflict, civil disturbances, and even riots.
http://public.findlaw.com/civil-rig...cs/hate-crimes-more/hate-crimes-violence.html

Crimes of hatred and prejudice&#8212;from lynchings to cross burnings to vandalism of synagogues&#8212;are a sad fact of American history, but the term "hate crime" did not enter the nation's vocabulary until the 1980s, when emerging hate groups like the Skinheads launched a wave of bias-related crime. The FBI began investigating what we now call hate crimes as far back as the early 1920s, when we opened our first Ku Klux Klan case.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/hate.htm
He called it a "house warming."

A Florida man doused a six-foot tall makeshift cross in his yard with flammable liquid and set it on fire. Then, he told a 15-year-old African American whose family was looking at a house for sale next door, "I don't want to see you around here again, boy." 
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/april07/crossburn043007.htm


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## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Hate crime legislation was needed to stop the lynching of blacks and the acts of domestic terrorism inflicted on blacks by the KKK.



As usual, inaccurate.

Hate crimes legislation wasn't even put into place in the U.S. until the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Try again, this time with facts


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## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate crime legislation was needed to stop the lynching of blacks and the acts of domestic terrorism inflicted on blacks by the KKK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, inaccurate.
> 
> Hate crimes legislation wasn't even put into place in the U.S. until the late 1980s and early 1990s.
> 
> Try again, this time with facts
Click to expand...



Next time read the links I already provided in my post.   My post addresses the historical reasons behind hate crime legislation. The source for this statement is the FBI.

_Crimes of hatred and prejudice&#8212;from lynchings to cross burnings to vandalism of synagogues&#8212;are a sad fact of American history, but the term "hate crime" did not enter the nation's vocabulary until the 1980s, when emerging hate groups like the Skinheads launched a wave of bias-related crime. 

*The FBI began investigating what we now call hate crimes as far back as the early 1920s, when we opened our first Ku Klux Klan case.*[_url=http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/hate.htm]Federal Bureau of Investigation - Civil Rights - Hate Crime[/url]


Here's more:
Traditional hate crime legislation protects persons because of "his race, color, religion or national origin," as in the case of the 1969 federal hate crimes law. (18 U.S.C. Section 245).
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat3.htm

_The term "Lynch's Law" (and subsequently "lynch law" and "lynching") apparently originated during the American Revolution when Charles Lynch, a Virginia justice of the peace, ordered extralegal punishment for Tory acts. In the South, members of the abolitionist movement or other people opposing slavery were usually targets of lynch mob violence before the Civil War. After the war, southern whites used lynching to terrorize and intimidate freed blacks who were voting and assuming political power. A study of the period of 1868 to 1871 estimates that the Ku Klux Klan was involved in more than 400 lynchings. In the aftermath of war it was a period of upheaval and social turmoil. Reasons mobs gave for lynching blacks were crimes they had allegedly committed against whites; however, journalist Ida B. Wells showed that many presumed crimes were exaggerated or did not occur.[10]

Not all lynchings in the United States were targeted against African Americans and committed by the Ku Klux Klan. In 1868, ten members of the Reno Gang, all white and between 20 and 30 years of age, were lynched on three separate occasions by vigilante mobs in Southern Indiana. There was no formal investigation and no charges were ever filed against anyone.

*Mob violence became a tool for enforcing white supremacy and verged on systematic political terrorism. *_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching


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## xotoxi

LilOlLady said:


> The* US government should have been on trial *and not the two boys...


 
So you think that murder of illegal immigrants is justified and that these boys should just be released?


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## 007

"Hate" crime laws are nothing more than feel good, liberal, PC, crap. We may as well then have "happy" crime laws, or "sad" crime laws, or "stupid" crime laws. 

If something is against the law, then it's against the law. All these new names the liberals want to slap on something is just a waste of damn time, but another perfect example of how liberals think with their feelings and not logic.


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## Sky Dancer

Pale Rider said:


> "Hate" crime laws are nothing more than feel good, liberal, PC, crap. We may as well then have "happy" crime laws, or "sad" crime laws, or "stupid" crime laws.
> 
> If something is against the law, then it's against the law. All these new names the liberals want to slap on something is just a waste of damn time, but another perfect example of how liberals think with their feelings and not logic.




U.S. Sen. Jeff Merkley, D-Ore., has joined Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., to co-sponsor the Matthew Shepard Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009.

The bill will enable the Justice Department to assist local authorities in the investigation and prosecution of hate crimes by authorizing grants to meet the extraordinary expenses often involved in investigating and prosecuting these cases. 

"Hate crimes are not just crimes against individuals, they are crimes targeting entire communities," said Merkley. "They are efforts to exploit and inflame our differences and to deny America's fundamental promise that every person should be treated equally." 

At the federal level, the Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes Prevention Act empowers the Treasury Department and the Justice Department to increase personnel to better prevent and respond to allegations of hate crimes - crimes that target victims on the basis of their race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.

http://www.portlandobserver.com/story.asp?record=9887&section=Law / Politics


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## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> The funny thing is, hate crime laws are part of the problem, they are creating more separation of people and dissension toward the groups they protect than they deter. But it's only part of the problem, there are others.



Yeah.  I mean in the past you could just murder a black dude while calling them a ******, and it was all ok.  Now?  These new laws are on the books that punish you for that.  And man that makes me dislike blacks now....yeah.  Sorry, but your statement makes no sense.   

Let me explain something to you all.  This isn't about whether a black, white, gay, straight, hispanic, handicapped, ab'ed person is murdered.  Its about what that murder does to other people who share the same characteristics.  If someone is murdered and the murder is because of money, drugs, or personal circumstances, thats one thing.  If its because the person was white, or black, or some sort of identity, thats something else.  And that is scary to people who share that identity.  And that should be legislated against.


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## Nik

Pale Rider said:


> "Hate" crime laws are nothing more than feel good, liberal, PC, crap. We may as well then have "happy" crime laws, or "sad" crime laws, or "stupid" crime laws.
> 
> If something is against the law, then it's against the law. All these new names the liberals want to slap on something is just a waste of damn time, but another perfect example of how liberals think with their feelings and not logic.



Yup, if somethings illegal, its illegal.  So if someone speeds they should be given the same punishment as someone who murders, right?

The law has the capability, thankfully and unlike you, to be more subtle than a nuclear bomb.


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## Nik

Toome said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the white man is killed randomly because of the color of his skin and for no other reason, it's a hate crime, especially if the crime is used to make other white people afraid and drive them out of a neighborhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's a stretch.
> 
> Is a husband who kills his wife's lover guilty of a hate crime?  Is a wife who hires a hitman to kill her husband guilty of a hate crime?  Is a businessman who kills his partner in order to get a promotion guilty of a hate crime?
> 
> Sorry, I don't see the difference.  Murder is the ultimate expression of hate, even when it involves a contract killer because that person has to be pretty hateful to kill without remorse.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...


I wasn't aware we were a society with large segments of the population who had clubs, organizations, whatever devoted to bashing, insulting, and threatening any of these groups.  Nor do we have a history of discriminating against them, nor is the US government currently discriminating against any of them (as it is with gays).


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## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Yeah.  I mean in the past you could just murder a black dude while calling them a ******, and it was all ok.



Is he any less dead if you don't call him a ******?


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## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Hate crime legislation was needed to stop the lynching of blacks and the acts of domestic terrorism inflicted on blacks by the KKK.



This was your post.  It is totally inaccurate, ACCORDING TO YOUR SOURCES.  If you knew anything at all about these types of crimes, you'd realize that blacks weren't being lynched in the 1980s, and that the KKK was basically a non-entity by that point in time.



> the term "hate crime" did not enter the nation's vocabulary until the 1980s, when emerging hate groups like the Skinheads launched a wave of bias-related crime.



NOT the KKK, and not lynchings.  You're an idiot who doesn't even read your own sources.


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## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.  I mean in the past you could just murder a black dude while calling them a ******, and it was all ok.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is he any less dead if you don't call him a ******?
Click to expand...


Nope.  But the surrounding community of blacks are less afraid if he isn't called a ******.  This isn't about the victim, its about the community.


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## JBeukema

Nik said:


> Nope.  But the surrounding community of blacks are less afraid if he isn't called a ******.  This isn't about the victim, its about the community.



What the fuck are you talkin' about? Most blacks ('niggas) are killed by other blacks ('niggas') and they have no damned problem with eachother


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## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.  But the surrounding community of blacks are less afraid if he isn't called a ******.  This isn't about the victim, its about the community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the fuck are you talkin' about? Most blacks ('niggas) are killed by other blacks ('niggas') and they have no damned problem with eachother
Click to expand...


And we aren't referencing those type of killings.  So what exactly is your purpose in bringing it up?


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## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Nope.  But the surrounding community of blacks are less afraid if he isn't called a ******.  This isn't about the victim, its about the community.



I think this is a naive perspective, and assumes that the vast majority of African Americans are living in fear of white people.  In point of fact, I'd say the vast majority of blacks are living in fear of OTHER BLACKS.

I think that if we treated all serious crimes as the serious crimes they are, there would be no need for hate crime laws, aside from those offenses that aren't chargeable as anything else.

In fact, I would suggest that charging a crime as a hate crime leads to GREATER FEAR, rather than less fear, as it creates a climate of hyperbole and hysteria.

Hate crime laws have certainly done nothing to reduce hate crimes, just as murder laws have done nothing to reduce murder.

To be blunt:  hate crime laws are a way for white liberals to feel better about doing nothing about the serious problems of blacks in America.   Hate crime laws don't make urban blacks safer.  Hate crime laws don't fix failing schools.  Nor do hate crime laws do anything at all to reduce prejudice and race-related crimes.  Legislating thought crimes does NOTHING to reduce violent crimes in the U.S.

They are sound and fury, signifying nothing.

And, I'm saying that as a person who has spent the last 19 years working with violent inner city populations


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## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate crime legislation was needed to stop the lynching of blacks and the acts of domestic terrorism inflicted on blacks by the KKK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was your post.  It is totally inaccurate, ACCORDING TO YOUR SOURCES.  If you knew anything at all about these types of crimes, you'd realize that blacks weren't being lynched in the 1980s, and that the KKK was basically a non-entity by that point in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the term "hate crime" did not enter the nation's vocabulary until the 1980s, when emerging hate groups like the Skinheads launched a wave of bias-related crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> NOT the KKK, and not lynchings.  You're an idiot who doesn't even read your own sources.
Click to expand...


Blacks were being lynched in the 20's 30's 40's 50's and sixties.  The FBI was investigating these crimes before they were labelled hate crimes.  The first legsilation that addressed th hate crime was in 1969.  IF you look at lynching statistics before 1968 you will see the practice distributed throughout the country.
The skinheads arose out of the KKK.  The Aryan Resistance was led by Tom Metzger, (a former KKK leader)  who incited skiniheads to murder this ethiopian immigrant.  Tom Metzger's organization was shut down by Morris Dees.  I was living in Portland during this time, and I remember it well.  The man was murdered close to where I was living at the time.

To this day, hate crime exists and the passage of the Matthew Shephard bill will deepen the penalties for it.

Hate crime is real, and is a more serious crime than other kinds of violence because of its ability to terrorize an entire minority community.  

Lynchings by state, 882-1968:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html


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## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> To this day, hate crime exists and the passage of the Matthew Shephard bill will deepen the penalties for it.
> 
> Hate crime is real.



Nobody denies that hate crime exists in this thread, so that's a strawman.  However, there is simply no way that passing legislation will make it less common.  It's a way for you to both attempt to link Matthew Shephard to the lynching era, and to impose your ideological agenda on other people.  It's the first step in a path towards criminalizing thought and speech.

And thus, should be resisted by ANYONE who values the bill of rights.


----------



## KittenKoder

The question should be, is hate a crime?


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> The question should be, is hate a crime?



I agree.  We should punish the crime, not the thought that inspired it.


----------



## JBeukema

KittenKoder said:


> The question should be, is hate a crime?



Nope, just a motivator

wait... correction: yes. yes, it is.

*
HATETHINK IS CRIMETHINK*


----------



## Sky Dancer

KittenKoder said:


> The question should be, is hate a crime?




Hate is not a crime.   Violence motivated by hatred to a targeted group in order to intimidate others is hate crime.

It's the actions and the effects on not only the victim but the entire group that the perpetrator has targeted for violence that makes it a hate crim.

Actions are conscionable.

Key point.  The KKK and skinheads targeted the black community in Portland for violence.  Mulageta Seraw was murdered.  Skinheads went into a black neighborhood and beat this ethiopian immigrant to death.

The entire community was affected.  I know, because I lived near where the murder occurred.

The skinheads were members of the Aryan Resistaance, a hate group started by Tom Metzger, a former grand wizard of the KKK.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Key point.  The KKK and skinheads targeted the black community in Portland for violence.  Mulageta Seraw was murdered.  Skinheads went into a black neighborhood and beat this ethiopian immigrant to death.
> 
> The entire community was affected.  I know, because I lived near where the murder occurred.
> 
> The skinheads were members of the Aryan Resistaance, a hate group started by Tom Metzger, a former grand wizard of the KKK.



The reason that Metzger is no longer a member of the KKK is because it had very little influence or power.  First, you say the laws were put into place to "stop the KKK from lynching people."  When confronted with the fact that the laws weren't put into place until almost 30 years after the lynching era, then you pick up this case.

Guess what?  Hate crimes weren't required to prosecute the responsible gang members (and that's what they were, gang members), and to civilly litigate against Tom Metzger.  hate crimes statutes WEREN'T EVEN USED in the Mulageta Seraw case.

In fact, the Mulageta Seraw prosecution is STRONG EVIDENCE that the existing criminal justice statutes work fine as is without additional hate crimes legislation.  The defendants' racialist views were presented as aggravating factors in the homicide, and the main defendant received a long sentence for first degree murder.  

Following the prosecution, the SPLC and ADL helped Seraw's survivors file a civil lawsuit against parties involved in the crime, WHICH THEY WON, to the tune of 12.5 million, bankrupting WAR.

Tell me again why hate crimes legislation is necessary to accomplish justice?  It ISN'T.  All that is necessary is that these crimes be effectively prosecuted.  And, hate crimes legislation is not going to impact that issue.

Furthermore, there is no evidence, WHATSOEVER, that hate crime legislation decreases hate crimes.  If anything, hate crimes have increased in the past 20 years.

It's the IDEA of this legislation supporting your chosen lifestyle that appeals to you, not whether or not it would actually impact crime (it wouldn't).  I hate, hate, hate unnecessary legislation.  legislation does not decrease crime, effective enforcement, investigation and prosecution do.

So, what, exactly, is the point, other than trying to cram your particular ideological agenda down other people's throats, and eliminating their right to disagree?


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> To this day, hate crime exists and the passage of the Matthew Shephard bill will deepen the penalties for it.
> 
> Hate crime is real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody denies that hate crime exists in this thread, so that's a strawman.  However, there is simply no way that passing legislation will make it less common.  It's a way for you to both attempt to link Matthew Shephard to the lynching era, and to impose your ideological agenda on other people.  It's the first step in a path towards criminalizing thought and speech.
> 
> And thus, should be resisted by ANYONE who values the bill of rights.
Click to expand...


The Matthew Shephard Act has just been passed by the House.  It is hate crime legislation.  Discussing the history of hate crime legislation does include racial violence--like lynchings and cross burnings.

Your position appears to be that hate crime legislation is unnecessary and that the Matthew Shephard bill is censorship.  That's wrong.

Anyone who values the bill of rights values the rights of minorities to live in peace, free of being target for violence on the basis of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, citizen status, disability or sexual orientation.

Let's be clear what's at stake here.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> To this day, hate crime exists and the passage of the Matthew Shephard bill will deepen the penalties for it.
> 
> Hate crime is real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody denies that hate crime exists in this thread, so that's a strawman.  However, there is simply no way that passing legislation will make it less common.  It's a way for you to both attempt to link Matthew Shephard to the lynching era, and to impose your ideological agenda on other people.  It's the first step in a path towards criminalizing thought and speech.
> 
> And thus, should be resisted by ANYONE who values the bill of rights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Matthew Shephard Act has just been passed by the House.  It is hate crime legislation.  Discussing the history of hate crime legislation does include racial violence--like lynchings and cross burnings.
> 
> Your position appears to be that hate crime legislation is unnecessary and that the Matthew Shephard bill is censorship.  That's wrong.
> 
> Anyone who values the bill of rights values the rights of minorities to live in peace, free of being target for violence on the basis of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, citizen status, disability or sexual orientation.
> 
> *Let's be clear what's at stake here.*
Click to expand...


nothing is at stake here except the opportunity for some grandstanding pols to take advantage of the less intelligent. enjoy.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody denies that hate crime exists in this thread, so that's a strawman.  However, there is simply no way that passing legislation will make it less common.  It's a way for you to both attempt to link Matthew Shephard to the lynching era, and to impose your ideological agenda on other people.  It's the first step in a path towards criminalizing thought and speech.
> 
> And thus, should be resisted by ANYONE who values the bill of rights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Matthew Shephard Act has just been passed by the House.  It is hate crime legislation.  Discussing the history of hate crime legislation does include racial violence--like lynchings and cross burnings.
> 
> Your position appears to be that hate crime legislation is unnecessary and that the Matthew Shephard bill is censorship.  That's wrong.
> 
> Anyone who values the bill of rights values the rights of minorities to live in peace, free of being target for violence on the basis of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, citizen status, disability or sexual orientation.
> 
> *Let's be clear what's at stake here.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> nothing is at stake here except the opportunity for some grandstanding pols to take advantage of the less intelligent. enjoy.
Click to expand...


Lives of people targeted for bias motivated violence are at stake here.  

Too bad you'd rather result to insults than discuss this important topic.   Enjoy.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Matthew Shephard Act has just been passed by the House.  It is hate crime legislation.  Discussing the history of hate crime legislation does include racial violence--like lynchings and cross burnings.
> 
> Your position appears to be that hate crime legislation is unnecessary and that the Matthew Shephard bill is censorship.  That's wrong.
> 
> Anyone who values the bill of rights values the rights of minorities to live in peace, free of being target for violence on the basis of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, citizen status, disability or sexual orientation.
> 
> *Let's be clear what's at stake here.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nothing is at stake here except the opportunity for some grandstanding pols to take advantage of the less intelligent. enjoy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lives of people targeted for bias motivated violence are at stake here.
> 
> Too bad you'd rather result to insults than discuss this important topic.   Enjoy.
Click to expand...


it's an important topic in your opinion, not mine. no lives will be saved by this, nor will any more be endangered.

an observation is not an insult.

ask someone smart to explain that to you.*

*this is both.


----------



## Barb

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> To this day, hate crime exists and the passage of the Matthew Shephard bill will deepen the penalties for it.
> 
> Hate crime is real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody denies that hate crime exists in this thread, so that's a strawman.  However, there is simply no way that passing legislation will make it less common.  It's a way for you to both attempt to link Matthew Shephard to the lynching era, and to impose your ideological agenda on other people.  It's the first step in a path towards criminalizing thought and speech.
> 
> And thus, should be resisted by ANYONE who values the bill of rights.
Click to expand...


Not so much. Intent is always considered in violent crime, this simply adds a way to gauge the intent of the perp. What "freedom of speech" is infringed upon? Chaining someone to the bumper of a truck and watching as their body is torn apart is not 'protected speech." Neither is chaining someone to a fence, physically and sexually abusing them, and then killing them "protected speech."


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Your position appears to be that hate crime legislation is unnecessary and that the Matthew Shephard bill is censorship.  That's wrong.
> 
> Anyone who values the bill of rights values the rights of minorities to live in peace, free of being target for violence on the basis of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, citizen status, disability or sexual orientation.
> 
> Let's be clear what's at stake here.



You couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag.

The fact of the matter is that hate crimes legislation DOES NOT STOP HATE CRIMES or violent crimes.  Making behavior against the law doesn't stop criminals from engaging in it.  

It's like our absurd weapons prohibitions in some areas of the U.S.  Legislating against guns doesn't keep criminals from possessing them.  It just makes imbecilic well-intentioned liberals feel safer, even though they aren't.


----------



## catzmeow

Barb said:


> Not so much. Intent is always considered in violent crime, this simply adds a way to gauge the intent of the perp.



Then, as I stated above, hate crime legislation is unnecessary.

I'd like to thank Sky for referencing the Mulugeta Seraw case.  It provides an excellent example of why hate crimes legislation is totally unnecessary in our current system, which can already adequately address aggravating factors such as race-related crime, and which can punish other influential parties through civil means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulugeta_Seraw


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> nothing is at stake here except the opportunity for some grandstanding pols to take advantage of the less intelligent. enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lives of people targeted for bias motivated violence are at stake here.
> 
> Too bad you'd rather result to insults than discuss this important topic.   Enjoy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it's an important topic in your opinion, not mine. no lives will be saved by this, nor will any more be endangered.
> 
> an observation is not an insult.
> 
> ask someone smart to explain that to you.*
> 
> *this is both.
Click to expand...


That you for owning your intention to continue to engage in insults than discuss the topic.

Why are you posting on this thread if you're not interested in the topic?


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lives of people targeted for bias motivated violence are at stake here.
> 
> Too bad you'd rather result to insults than discuss this important topic.   Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it's an important topic in your opinion, not mine. no lives will be saved by this, nor will any more be endangered.
> 
> an observation is not an insult.
> 
> ask someone smart to explain that to you.*
> 
> *this is both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That you for owning your intention to continue to engage in insults than discuss the topic.
> 
> Why are you posting on this thread if you're not interested in the topic?
Click to expand...


i'm trying to intimidate you.

hate crime! hate crime!


----------



## catzmeow

del said:


> i'm trying to intimidate you.
> 
> hate crime! hate crime!



Cyberbullying.  Cyberbullying.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your position appears to be that hate crime legislation is unnecessary and that the Matthew Shephard bill is censorship.  That's wrong.
> 
> Anyone who values the bill of rights values the rights of minorities to live in peace, free of being target for violence on the basis of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, citizen status, disability or sexual orientation.
> 
> Let's be clear what's at stake here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that hate crimes legislation DOES NOT STOP HATE CRIMES or violent crimes.  Making behavior against the law doesn't stop criminals from engaging in it.
> 
> It's like our absurd weapons prohibitions in some areas of the U.S.  Legislating against guns doesn't keep criminals from possessing them.  It just makes imbecilic well-intentioned liberals feel safer, even though they aren't.
Click to expand...


Hate crime legislation increases the penalty on the crime of violence.  It is necessary because the crime itself targets someone on the basis of race, creed, gender, disability, sexual orientation-AND SERVES TO INTIMIDATE AN ENTIRE MINORITY GROUP.

I agree that ;aws do not prevent people from engaging in criminal behavior.  We create laws to punish people for behavior that is unacceptable in our culture.

The fact that you require the use of insults in your post shows how weak your arguments are.

We've been down this road many times.  I'm not going there.  You're on your own.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> it's an important topic in your opinion, not mine. no lives will be saved by this, nor will any more be endangered.
> 
> an observation is not an insult.
> 
> ask someone smart to explain that to you.*
> 
> *this is both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That you for owning your intention to continue to engage in insults than discuss the topic.
> 
> Why are you posting on this thread if you're not interested in the topic?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i'm trying to intimidate you.
> 
> hate crime! hate crime!
Click to expand...


You're trying to provoke me to return an insult rather than address the topic.  I have no idea what your motivation is.  It could be hate, I don't know?


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> That you for owning your intention to continue to engage in insults than discuss the topic.
> 
> Why are you posting on this thread if you're not interested in the topic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm trying to intimidate you.
> 
> hate crime! hate crime!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're trying to provoke me to return an insult.  I have no idea what your motivation is.  It could be hate, I don't know.
Click to expand...


i'll put in on the list.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Hate crime legislation increases the penalty on the crime of violence.



Violence is not a crime.  If you mean to say that hate crime legislation adds an additional penalty to violent crimes, you should realize that such penalties are not necessary when crimes are well-prosecuted because offenders receive the maximum sentence.  And, if prosecutors are inept, additional laws won't help them.



> It is necessary because the crime itself targets someone on the basis of race, creed, gender, disability, sexual orientation-AND SERVES TO INTIMIDATE AN ENTIRE MINORITY GROUP.



Publicizing crimes as hate crimes serves to intimidate these groups far more, on a relative scale.



> I agree that ;aws do not prevent people from engaging in criminal behavior.  We create laws to punish people for behavior that is unacceptable in our culture.



Thank you, Queen Obviousa.



> The fact that you require the use of insults in your post shows how weak your arguments are.



Actually, you have yet to address my arguments.  that gets frustrating, so I taunt you in hopes that one day, you may actually pull a cogent argument out of your ass.  Small hope, of course.


----------



## Barb

catzmeow said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so much. Intent is always considered in violent crime, this simply adds a way to gauge the intent of the perp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then hate crime legislation is unnecessary.
Click to expand...


So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you? 

My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"

They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone. 

That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid. 

THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> I have no idea what your motivation is.  It could be hate, I don't know?



I think it's a highly refined sense of the ridiculous.


----------



## del

Barb said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so much. Intent is always considered in violent crime, this simply adds a way to gauge the intent of the perp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then hate crime legislation is unnecessary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?
> 
> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"
> 
> They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone.
> 
> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.
> 
> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.
Click to expand...


you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.


----------



## KittenKoder

Sky Dancer said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be, is hate a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hate is not a crime.   Violence motivated by hatred to a targeted group in order to intimidate others is hate crime.
> 
> It's the actions and the effects on not only the victim but the entire group that the perpetrator has targeted for violence that makes it a hate crim.
> 
> Actions are conscionable.
> 
> Key point.  The KKK and skinheads targeted the black community in Portland for violence.  Mulageta Seraw was murdered.  Skinheads went into a black neighborhood and beat this ethiopian immigrant to death.
> 
> The entire community was affected.  I know, because I lived near where the murder occurred.
> 
> The skinheads were members of the Aryan Resistaance, a hate group started by Tom Metzger, a former grand wizard of the KKK.
Click to expand...


However, how many people truly fear these morons who commit the atrocities? Is there some huge hidden portion of the population that is hiding out in fear all the time? What I see is when such a crime is committed more people stand up and fight back now than ever, even those targeted. It's makes more of a message when the public stands up like that than to just tack on a few more years of thousands in bail (life is life, you can't make it longer).


----------



## catzmeow

Barb said:


> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?



How do you know what I'm likely to be a victim of?  I'm a white woman who has "halfbreed" children.  You need to stop assuming, idiot.



> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"



They should report this facility to your state attorney general's office.  These types of discrimination are currently illegal (without the need for hate crime legislation) and can be prosecuted.



> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.



People of color are about a hundred thousand times more likely to be victimized by someone from their own race than to be a victim of  racial crime.  True story.  Hysterical exaggeration of the risk doesn't make anyone safer, and certainly does nothing for race relations in this country.



> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.



The behavior you described is ALREADY illegal.  Thus, new laws aren't required.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then hate crime legislation is unnecessary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?
> 
> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"
> 
> They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone.
> 
> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.
> 
> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.
Click to expand...


You're implying this poster is lying?


----------



## KittenKoder

Here, point to one actual prejudiced thing, anywhere, that is REAL, not doctored or hyped in any way, from after 2000 that was widely supported by the public, then maybe I will consider the possibility of a problem existing. Until then, I just don't see it. But here's the thing, for every one against one side I can guarantee that I will find one on the other.


----------



## KittenKoder

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?
> 
> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"
> 
> They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone.
> 
> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.
> 
> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're calling this poster a liar?
Click to expand...


The "forget what backwater" is pretty much a give away.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> You're implying this poster is lying?



I think his post was fairly clear.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?
> 
> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"
> 
> They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone.
> 
> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.
> 
> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're implying this poster is lying?
Click to expand...


can't fool you for long, huh?


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> The "forget what backwater" is pretty much a give away.




Don't forget the "happened last night" part.  How convenient that it happened RIGHT BEFORE Barb breathlessly entered this discussion.


----------



## Sky Dancer

KittenKoder said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be, is hate a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hate is not a crime.   Violence motivated by hatred to a targeted group in order to intimidate others is hate crime.
> 
> It's the actions and the effects on not only the victim but the entire group that the perpetrator has targeted for violence that makes it a hate crim.
> 
> Actions are conscionable.
> 
> Key point.  The KKK and skinheads targeted the black community in Portland for violence.  Mulageta Seraw was murdered.  Skinheads went into a black neighborhood and beat this ethiopian immigrant to death.
> 
> The entire community was affected.  I know, because I lived near where the murder occurred.
> 
> The skinheads were members of the Aryan Resistaance, a hate group started by Tom Metzger, a former grand wizard of the KKK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> However, how many people truly fear these morons who commit the atrocities? Is there some huge hidden portion of the population that is hiding out in fear all the time? What I see is when such a crime is committed more people stand up and fight back now than ever, even those targeted. It's makes more of a message when the public stands up like that than to just tack on a few more years of thousands in bail (life is life, you can't make it longer).
Click to expand...



Why not ask people if they feel intimidated when they hear about hate crime and happen to be a member of the minority group.

Matthew Shephard's murder affected the gay community deeply.  It also offended every American who despises bias motivated crime.

You are right that there is always a silver lining in a cloud.  Matthew Shephard did not intend to be a civil rights martyr.  These movements are always interdependent.

The gay civil rights movement benefited from the murder of Harvey Milk.  If Dan White had murdered Harvey and Mayor Moscone now, you can bet he would have had a stiffer sentence.  He only served five years in prison for his hate motivated double assassination.


----------



## Barb

del said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then hate crime legislation is unnecessary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?
> 
> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"
> 
> They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone.
> 
> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.
> 
> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.
Click to expand...


What have I ever said here to make you assume I'm a liar? My daughter is black, her boyfriend and the other kid he was driving with is also.

I suppose you don't think traffic stops are a whole different experience either. They are, I've seen them from both ends:
 (blond, blue eyes, alone in the car:maam, did you know hour left headlight's out? Get that fixed, ok?)
(same mom, with family:two cop cars, flashlights, demands for ID [my daughter was 15] where were you going and where have you been, 20 minutes on the side of the road, and a ticket). 

So listen _Del_, especially if your avatar is your picture and you really don't have the first clue, don't call me a liar. Its ignorant, and I hate that shit.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Why not ask people if they feel intimidated when they hear about hate crime and happen to be a member of the minority group.



That's part of the problem.  Gay people are far more likely to  be victims of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE assaults committed by another gay person than they are to be a victim of a hate crime.  African Americans are a hundred thousand times more likely to be killed by another African American than to be targeted by some crazy white supremacist.

THAT IS THE REALITY OF THE WORLD WE LIVE IN.

Hate crime legislation presupposes that other races are the problems, and serves as a distraction from the REAL problems.

Hate crime legislation actually EXACERBATES racial and gender violence by sending the message that we are enemies.

The fact is that crime and violence are far more complex than many of us would like to believe.  It's easy to believe in an imaginary bogeyman who is responsible for our problems and our fear.  it's hard to deal with the problem in our own home/neighborhood.


----------



## del

Barb said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?
> 
> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"
> 
> They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone.
> 
> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.
> 
> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have I ever said here to make you assume I'm a liar? My daughter is black, her boyfriend and the other kid he was driving with is also.
> 
> I suppose you don't think traffic stops are a whole different experience either. They are, I've seen them from both ends:
> (blond, blue eyes, alone in the car:maam, did you know hour left headlight's out? Get that fixed, ok?)
> (same mom, with family:two cop cars, flashlights, demands for ID [my daughter was 15] where were you going and where have you been, 20 minutes on the side of the road, and a ticket).
> 
> So listen _Del_, especially if your avatar is your picture and you really don't have the first clue, don't call me a liar. Its ignorant, and I hate that shit.
Click to expand...


tough break for you.

i don't believe you. get over it.

and, no, that's not me in my avitar.


----------



## KittenKoder

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "forget what backwater" is pretty much a give away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget the "happened last night" part.  How convenient that it happened RIGHT BEFORE Barb breathlessly entered this discussion.
Click to expand...


That's the connection I was making.


----------



## Barb

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "forget what backwater" is pretty much a give away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget the "happened last night" part.  How convenient that it happened RIGHT BEFORE Barb breathlessly entered this discussion.
Click to expand...


It happened "right before" I went to WORK last night, they were on the phone. You know what though? You aren't worth the time to explain anything to. This is a sad _little_ place, and you're sad _little_ people.


----------



## del

Barb said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "forget what backwater" is pretty much a give away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget the "happened last night" part.  How convenient that it happened RIGHT BEFORE Barb breathlessly entered this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It happened "right before" I went to WORK last night, they were on the phone. You know what though? You aren't worth the time to explain anything to. This is a sad _little_ place, and you're sad _little_ people.
Click to expand...


oooh. that stung.


----------



## catzmeow

Barb said:


> What have I ever said here to make you assume I'm a liar? My daughter is black, her boyfriend and the other kid he was driving with is also.



Please feel free to provide the name of the business and the location....


to your state State Attorney General's office.

This experience does not relate to the topic of this thread, and thankfully, there are already statutes in place to address these types of events.



> 72. Most states have state civil rights or human rights commissions or offices that administer and enforce state laws prohibiting discrimination in areas such as employment, education, housing, and access to public accommodations. These offices generally investigate complaints and ensure, where appropriate, that charges are filed and cases are heard. They generally also have advisory and educational functions, informing residents of the state about enforcement of their civil rights. The few states that do not have designated civil rights or human rights offices or commissions administer their civil rights laws through their Attorney Generals Offices.



I've seen this occur within 50 miles of the town where I live, and I also saw our state Attorney General file charges against the restaurant/bar where it occurred.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Barb said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "forget what backwater" is pretty much a give away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget the "happened last night" part.  How convenient that it happened RIGHT BEFORE Barb breathlessly entered this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It happened "right before" I went to WORK last night, they were on the phone. You know what though? You aren't worth the time to explain anything to. This is a sad _little_ place, and you're sad _little_ people.
Click to expand...


Barb--

You just happened to run into a few 'sad, little people'.  It's not the forum.  It's the times we live in.  Just stick to your guns and enjoy this interesting topic.  
Thanks for telling the story.  What state had the sign 'whites only' posted?


----------



## catzmeow

Barb said:


> It happened "right before" I went to WORK last night, they were on the phone.



If you say it in all caps, i'll definitely believe you.



> You know what though? You aren't worth the time to explain anything to. This is a sad _little_ place, and you're sad _little_ people.



Translation:  I can't prove my claims and I've been called publicly on my bullshit.


----------



## KittenKoder

Barb said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "forget what backwater" is pretty much a give away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget the "happened last night" part.  How convenient that it happened RIGHT BEFORE Barb breathlessly entered this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It happened "right before" I went to WORK last night, they were on the phone. You know what though? You aren't worth the time to explain anything to. This is a sad _little_ place, and you're sad _little_ people.
Click to expand...


... and yet you "forget the backwater" town? You're allowed to work with that kind of memory? I hope it's not brain surgery, might get the hands and feet rewired by you.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Barb said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> So sez you. Not likely to be a victim of such, are you?
> 
> My daughters boyfriend was driving somewhere last night, forget what backwater it was, but there was a sign at a rest stop the boys were going to stop at: "Whites only"
> 
> They didn't stop, they were afraid to. Two young kids on the road alone.
> 
> That shouldn't be in today's America. They shouldn't have anything more to fear besides the random serial killer or violence any of us might deal with. Instead, they have so much more to avoid.
> 
> THAT infringes on their rights, and THAT is just one example of what makes this legislation not only NECESSARY, but important, not to "punish free speech" (whatta crock), but to protect others from infringements on their constitutional rights, because your right to do anything ends where it impinges mine to breathe free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have I ever said here to make you assume I'm a liar? My daughter is black, her boyfriend and the other kid he was driving with is also.
> 
> I suppose you don't think traffic stops are a whole different experience either. They are, I've seen them from both ends:
> (blond, blue eyes, alone in the car:maam, did you know hour left headlight's out? Get that fixed, ok?)
> (same mom, with family:two cop cars, flashlights, demands for ID [my daughter was 15] where were you going and where have you been, 20 minutes on the side of the road, and a ticket).
> 
> So listen _Del_, especially if your avatar is your picture and you really don't have the first clue, don't call me a liar. Its ignorant, and I hate that shit.
Click to expand...


Guess what? I'm afraid to go to Anacostia too. I'm not sure if there's a sign somewhere that says African-Americans only, but I'm not likely too walk around trying to find out.

This violates my "freedom to travel" please tell me to whom I appeal for redress of this grievance? Shall we prosecute the violent violators as perpetrators of hate crimes should the recipient of the beatings or bullets be white? Is that really what you are asking for?


----------



## KittenKoder

Tech_Esq said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> you'll excuse me for not believing this little anecdote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What have I ever said here to make you assume I'm a liar? My daughter is black, her boyfriend and the other kid he was driving with is also.
> 
> I suppose you don't think traffic stops are a whole different experience either. They are, I've seen them from both ends:
> (blond, blue eyes, alone in the car:maam, did you know hour left headlight's out? Get that fixed, ok?)
> (same mom, with family:two cop cars, flashlights, demands for ID [my daughter was 15] where were you going and where have you been, 20 minutes on the side of the road, and a ticket).
> 
> So listen _Del_, especially if your avatar is your picture and you really don't have the first clue, don't call me a liar. Its ignorant, and I hate that shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guess what? I'm afraid to go to Anacostia too. I'm not sure if there's a sign somewhere that says African-Americans only, but I'm not likely too walk around trying to find out.
> 
> This violates my "freedom to travel" please tell me to whom I appeal for redress of this grievance? Shall we prosecute the violent violators as perpetrators of hate crimes should the recipient of the beatings or bullets be white? Is that really what you are asking for?
Click to expand...


I'm afraid of Western Indianapolis, lived there for a bit, worked there, and got no raise because I was white .... I should sue! 

Meh, I just moved to a more "comfortable" area instead.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Barb--
> 
> You just happened to run into a few 'sad, little people'.  It's not the forum.  It's the times we live in.  Just stick to your guns and enjoy this interesting topic.
> Thanks for telling the story.  What state had the sign 'whites only' posted?


Translation:  Facts aren't necessary as long as you feed my paradigm.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Barb--
> 
> You just happened to run into a few 'sad, little people'.  It's not the forum.  It's the times we live in.  Just stick to your guns and enjoy this interesting topic.
> Thanks for telling the story.  What state had the sign 'whites only' posted?
> 
> 
> 
> Translation:  Facts aren't necessary as long as you feed my paradigm.[/QUO
> 
> Encouragement to a new poster.  Advice  to ignore putdowns and stay on the topic.   Wiser for me to take Barb's example and leave this thread.  You're not going to change but I am.
Click to expand...


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Encouragement to a new poster.  Advice  to ignore putdowns and stay on the topic.   Wiser for me to take Barb's example and leave this thread.  You're not going to change but I am.



Flee, fool.  Your ass has been owned.


----------



## catzmeow

RealClearPolitics - Empty Symbolism on Hate Crimes



> Empty Symbolism on Hate Crimes
> By Steve Chapman
> 
> Federal law enforcement officials are not plagued by idleness these days, thanks to the demands on their time from terrorists, drug traffickers, human traffickers, Ponzi schemers and crooked politicians. But Congress never stops trying to ensure full employment for FBI agents and U.S. attorneys. The latest stimulus is the Matthew Shepard Act, billed as an overdue effort to prevent violence against gays and lesbians.
> 
> The logic behind the proposed measure is hard to follow. Says sponsoring Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.), "No members of society -- none -- deserve to be victims of a violent crime because of their race, their religion, their ethnic background, their disability, their gender, their gender identity, or their sexual orientation." *Which raises the question: Who exactly does deserve to be the victim of a violent crime?*
> 
> The bill targets actions we would all like to eliminate -- physically injuring or trying to injure someone with "fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device." But it's hard to imagine that it would reduce the prevalence of such conduct, which is already 1) really, really illegal and 2) subject to harsh penalties.
> 
> This legislation would add extra punishment for attacks designated as hate crimes. *But if a criminal is not deterred by the fear of five years behind bars, he's probably not going to be pushed onto the straight and narrow by the prospect of six.*
> 
> *In the case of attacks like the one on Matthew Shepard, a gay college student beaten to death in Wyoming in 1998, the statute would be superfluous. *His killers were eligible for the death penalty, though both made deals that assured they would be locked up for the rest of their lives.
> *For the most horrific hate crimes, the change would accomplish absolutely nothing*.
> 
> That's not the only way in which it would constitute an exercise in irrelevance. *Already, 45 states have hate crime laws, and two-thirds of them include crimes against gays and lesbians. In the remaining states, you will be relieved to know, such attacks are punished as violent felonies*.



What a pointless, stupid, waste of time.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be, is hate a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  We should punish the crime, not the thought that inspired it.
Click to expand...


Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?


----------



## KittenKoder

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be, is hate a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  We should punish the crime, not the thought that inspired it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?
Click to expand...


There is no difference.


----------



## del

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be, is hate a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  We should punish the crime, not the thought that inspired it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?
Click to expand...


i'm sure if you tried harder, you could come up with a more spectacularly stupid analogy.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be, is hate a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  We should punish the crime, not the thought that inspired it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?
Click to expand...


What's the difference if they were both accidental?

Two dangerous instrumentalities and an accident.


----------



## catzmeow

del said:


> i'm sure if you tried harder, you could come up with a more spectacularly stupid analogy.



He's new.  Perhaps exposure to Chris and Sealy will help.


----------



## Nik

del said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  We should punish the crime, not the thought that inspired it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i'm sure if you tried harder, you could come up with a more spectacularly stupid analogy.
Click to expand...


Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.  

Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.


----------



## JBeukema

catzmeow said:


> RealClearPolitics - Empty Symbolism on Hate Crimes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Empty Symbolism on Hate Crimes
> By Steve Chapman
> 
> Federal law enforcement officials are not plagued by idleness these days, thanks to the demands on their time from terrorists, drug traffickers, human traffickers, Ponzi schemers and crooked politicians. But Congress never stops trying to ensure full employment for FBI agents and U.S. attorneys. The latest stimulus is the Matthew Shepard Act, billed as an overdue effort to prevent violence against gays and lesbians.
> 
> The logic behind the proposed measure is hard to follow. Says sponsoring Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.), "No members of society -- none -- deserve to be victims of a violent crime because of their race, their religion, their ethnic background, their disability, their gender, their gender identity, or their sexual orientation." *Which raises the question: Who exactly does deserve to be the victim of a violent crime?*
> 
> The bill targets actions we would all like to eliminate -- physically injuring or trying to injure someone with "fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device." But it's hard to imagine that it would reduce the prevalence of such conduct, which is already 1) really, really illegal and 2) subject to harsh penalties.
> 
> This legislation would add extra punishment for attacks designated as hate crimes. *But if a criminal is not deterred by the fear of five years behind bars, he's probably not going to be pushed onto the straight and narrow by the prospect of six.*
> 
> *In the case of attacks like the one on Matthew Shepard, a gay college student beaten to death in Wyoming in 1998, the statute would be superfluous. *His killers were eligible for the death penalty, though both made deals that assured they would be locked up for the rest of their lives.
> *For the most horrific hate crimes, the change would accomplish absolutely nothing*.
> 
> That's not the only way in which it would constitute an exercise in irrelevance. *Already, 45 states have hate crime laws, and two-thirds of them include crimes against gays and lesbians. In the remaining states, you will be relieved to know, such attacks are punished as violent felonies*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a pointless, stupid, waste of time.
Click to expand...




> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to catzmeow again.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Nik said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm sure if you tried harder, you could come up with a more spectacularly stupid analogy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.
> 
> Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.
Click to expand...


Are you saying that you believe that motive is an element of the crime? (As in murder, are you saying you must prove motive to succeed in proving a case of murder?)


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.
> 
> Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.



Motive is already taken into consideration in violent crimes.  That's why some murders are charged as 1st degree, some are charged as 2nd or 3rd degree, and some are charged as manslaughter.

Racial bias as a motive in the commission of  a crime is already considered as an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes, and would also impact how the charge was prosecuted.

What those of us who have some expertise in these matters are telling you, Nik, is that adding legislation to the books is a meaningless act of symbolism that won't prevent a single crime.  It is a sop to advocacy groups.


----------



## del

Nik said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm sure if you tried harder, you could come up with a more spectacularly stupid analogy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.
> 
> Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.
Click to expand...


sorry, i don't deal in strawmen.
try sky dancer; she's not very bright.


----------



## Tech_Esq

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.
> 
> Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motive is already taken into consideration in violent crimes.  That's why some murders are charged as 1st degree, some are charged as 2nd or 3rd degree, and some are charged as manslaughter.
> 
> Racial bias as a motive in the commission of  a crime is already considered as an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes, and would also impact how the charge was prosecuted.
> 
> What those of us who have some expertise in these matters are telling you, Nik, is that adding legislation to the books is a meaningless act of symbolism that won't prevent a single crime.  It is a sop to advocacy groups.
Click to expand...


To clarify, motive is not an element of murder. _Mens rea_ is, but that is not motive. 


> The mental component of criminal liability. To be guilty of most crimes, a defendant must have committed the criminal act (the actus reus) in a certain mental state (the mens rea). The mens rea of robbery, for example, is the intent to permanently deprive the owner of his property.


Mens rea defined.

And, yes, aggravating and mitigating circumstances are considered during sentencing. So, yes, I agree with Catz result.


----------



## catzmeow

Tech_Esq said:


> To clarify, motive is not an element of murder. _Mens rea_ is, but that is not motive.
> 
> 
> 
> The mental component of criminal liability. To be guilty of most crimes, a defendant must have committed the criminal act (the actus reus) in a certain mental state (the mens rea). The mens rea of robbery, for example, is the intent to permanently deprive the owner of his property.
> 
> 
> 
> Mens rea defined.
Click to expand...


Motive does play a role in sentencing, however.


----------



## Tech_Esq

catzmeow said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> To clarify, motive is not an element of murder. _Mens rea_ is, but that is not motive.
> 
> 
> 
> The mental component of criminal liability. To be guilty of most crimes, a defendant must have committed the criminal act (the actus reus) in a certain mental state (the mens rea). The mens rea of robbery, for example, is the intent to permanently deprive the owner of his property.
> 
> 
> 
> Mens rea defined.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Motive does play a role in sentencing, however.
Click to expand...


Yes. I amended my post to include that and our agreement in outcome.


----------



## catzmeow

Tech_Esq said:


> Yes. I amended my post to include that and our agreement in outcome.



Is it just me, or do you find this entire topic incredibly annoying?  More laws does not equal better justice for god's sake.  Convincing people of that would be a wonderful thing.


----------



## JBeukema

catzmeow said:


> Is it just me, or do you find this entire topic incredibly annoying?  More laws does not equal better justice for god's sake.  Convincing people of that would be a wonderful thing.



That would require that they think


----------



## catzmeow

JBeukema said:


> That would require that they think



True.  You can lead an idiot to the facts, but you cannot make him think.


----------



## JBeukema

catzmeow said:


> True.  You can lead an idiot to the facts, but you cannot make him think.



I like this woman



> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to catzmeow again.


I hate this system


----------



## Tech_Esq

catzmeow said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I amended my post to include that and our agreement in outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just me, or do you find this entire topic incredibly annoying?  More laws does not equal better justice for god's sake.  Convincing people of that would be a wonderful thing.
Click to expand...


LOL...I find it annoying that this is the 3rd thread on this in the last week.

You should punish the crime. If the crime is not punished adequately, then you should increase the punishment for the crime. I don't see what sense it makes to punish murder committed out of hate for some general attribute of the murdered person resulting in a greater punishment. It should result in the same penalty, death or life without parole.

Same with assault. When I first got back to DC, there was a video on the news taken by some residents of SouthEast DC and sent to a gang in NY. The video showed a black guy who stopped to ask directions of some other black residents of DC. One guy asked him what he wanted and when he responded, "directions." The guy punched him in the face and knocked him out. They proceeded to pee on him. Then someone shot him in the butt. Then they tried to drive a car over him.

So, under hate crime theory, that guy is shit outta luck, cuz he's black. He gets no extra juice on the scum that did this to him. But, if those guys had been white, he would have been able to get more time on their sentence.

That's dumb. Sorry, it just is.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Tech_Esq said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I amended my post to include that and our agreement in outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just me, or do you find this entire topic incredibly annoying?  More laws does not equal better justice for god's sake.  Convincing people of that would be a wonderful thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL...*I find it annoying that this is the 3rd thread on this in the last week.*
Click to expand...


Why is it annoying?  It's big news this week.  The Matthew Shepard Act passed the House and moves on to the Senate.  It's taken 11 years to get this far.


_The main reason for committing hate crime appears to be personal prejudice, a situation that colors people's judgment, blinding the aggressors to the immorality of what they are doing. Such prejudice is most likely rooted in an environment that disdains someone who is "different" or sees that difference as threatening. *One expression of this prejudice is the perception that society sanctions attacks on certain groups. *  For example, Dr. Karen Franklin, a forensic psychology fellow at the Washington Institute for Mental Illness Research and Training, has found that, in some settings, offenders perceive that they have societal permission to engage in violence against homosexuals. 

Researchers have concluded that hate crimes are not necessarily random, uncontrollable, or inevitable occurrences. There is overwhelming evidence that society can intervene to reduce or prevent many forms of violence, especially among young people, including the hate-induced violence that threatens and intimidates entire categories of people. 

The Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 1998, introduced in both the House (H.R. 3081) and Senate (S. 1529), seeks to expand federal jurisdiction over hate crimes by (1) allowing federal authorities to investigate all possible hate crimes, not only those where the victim was engaged in a federally protected activity such as voting, going to school, or crossing state lines; and (2) expanding the categories that are currently covered by hate crimes legislation to include gender, sexual orientation, and disability. 


Why do people commit hate crimes?

Hate crimes are message crimes, according to Dr. Jack McDevitt, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston. They are different from other crimes in that the offender is sending a message to members of a certain group that they are unwelcome in a particular neighborhood, community, school, or workplace. _

http://www.apa.org/releases/hate.html


----------



## Immanuel

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be, is hate a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  We should punish the crime, not the thought that inspired it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure.  Lets punish someone who gets into a car accident and kills someone the same as someone who shoots someone in the face.  After all, only the result matters, right?
Click to expand...


We already have different degrees of homicide.  Getting into a car accident and killing someone would most likely be negligent homicide while shooting someone in the face, if it was deliberate would be murder either first or second degree and supposedly is punishable by more time in prison than an accident.

We don't need to say, that since this straight person killed a guy we all believe to be gay, the straight guy must spend an extra 15 years in prison.  The victim is dead and the killer deserves to be punished for his crime regardless of whether he did it out of hate or if it were a robbery gone bad.  He killed the guy.  Let him suffer the consequences of that action.

For example Joe (a straight man) kills Bobbi (a gay man) in cold blood because Joe hates gay people.  Joe should do the time for killing Bobbi, no question about it.

Conversely Joe (the same straight guy) kills Steve in a robbery attempt.  No hate was involved at all, just a robbery attempt gone sour.  Joe should do the time for killing Steve.

Why should Steve's family not get the same "satisfaction" at seeing Joe do his full time as Bobbi's family?

Immie


----------



## Sky Dancer

"A federal hate crimes law already exists: Passed in 1968, it allowed federal investigation and prosecution of hate crimes based on race, religion, and national origin. The new law would simply add sexual orientation and gender identity to the protected groups, and allow local governments to get needed resources from the federal government for investigations and prosecutions. The need for such parity was made starkly clear more than a decade ago, in 1998, during the investigations of two different murders: 

The Laramie, Wyoming Sheriff&#8217;s Office had to furlough five deputies in order to cover the more than $150,000 that it cost to investigate Matthew Shepard&#8217;s murder. Yet when Jasper, Texas investigated the lynching of James Byrd, Jr., it received $284,000 in federal funds because Byrd&#8217;s murder was motivated by race, rather than sexual orientation."
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/29/hate-crimes-hysteria/


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.
> 
> Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motive is already taken into consideration in violent crimes.  That's why some murders are charged as 1st degree, some are charged as 2nd or 3rd degree, and some are charged as manslaughter.
> 
> Racial bias as a motive in the commission of  a crime is already considered as an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes, and would also impact how the charge was prosecuted.
> 
> What those of us who have some expertise in these matters are telling you, Nik, is that adding legislation to the books is a meaningless act of symbolism that won't prevent a single crime.  It is a sop to advocacy groups.
Click to expand...


So motive matters...except if they are killing someone gay.  Got it.


----------



## Yurt

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.
> 
> Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motive is already taken into consideration in violent crimes.  That's why some murders are charged as 1st degree, some are charged as 2nd or 3rd degree, and some are charged as manslaughter.
> 
> Racial bias as a motive in the commission of  a crime is already considered as an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes, and would also impact how the charge was prosecuted.
> 
> What those of us who have some expertise in these matters are telling you, Nik, is that adding legislation to the books is a meaningless act of symbolism that won't prevent a single crime.  It is a sop to advocacy groups.
Click to expand...


motive is a factor in proving guilt and some states do allow for motive to enhance sentences, but isn't the greatest consideration in determining degrees of murder or considering manslaugher....premeditation

should someone go to prison longer because they killed their wife vs their best friend or brother or sister...i agree with you that this is a sop to advocacy groups...


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> So motive matters...except if they are killing someone gay.  Got it.



Strawman, and a bad one at that.  I know you aren't used to THINKING critically.  Try it.  You may like it.

Motive is ALREADY a consideration in sentencing and proving guilt.  If someone kills a person simply because they are gay, that fact will ALREADY be presented during sentencing as an aggravating factor to the offense, and will likely result in more time.  If we're talking a homicide, and it's a heinous crime, the person is ALREADY going to be charged with the MAXIMUM possible offense, and will likely serve the maximum sentence.  Hate crimes legislation has NO impact on sentence served.

It didn't with Matthew Shepherd's perpetrators, and it didn't in the other cases brought up by Sky.  

But, don't let the facts stand in the way of your paradigms, man.

That's why I say this is a sop to well-intentioned (but stupid) liberals and do-gooders, as well as a kiss to advocacy groups.  But the real time effect is ZERO.

How difficult is it to comprehend this?  Apparently, pretty damn hard.


----------



## JBeukema

Shepard was not killed because he was gay. This bill is bullshit and a myth


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> So motive matters...except if they are killing someone gay.  Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strawman, and a bad one at that.  I know you aren't used to THINKING critically.  Try it.  You may like it.
> 
> Motive is ALREADY a consideration in sentencing and proving guilt.  If someone kills a person simply because they are gay, that fact will ALREADY be presented during sentencing as an aggravating factor to the offense, and will likely result in more time.  If we're talking a homicide, and it's a heinous crime, the person is ALREADY going to be charged with the MAXIMUM possible offense, and will likely serve the maximum sentence.  Hate crimes legislation has NO impact on sentence served.
> 
> It didn't with Matthew Shepherd's perpetrators, and it didn't in the other cases brought up by Sky.
> 
> But, don't let the facts stand in the way of your paradigms, man.
> 
> That's why I say this is a sop to well-intentioned (but stupid) liberals and do-gooders, as well as a kiss to advocacy groups.  But the real time effect is ZERO.
> 
> How difficult is it to comprehend this?  Apparently, pretty damn hard.
Click to expand...


No.  That someone kills someone because they are gay does not increase the penalty served under the current system.  Learn your facts first, please.  

Umm...care to tell me how hate crimes legislation that didn't exist could have changed the sentences of Matthew Shephards killers?  Something that didn't exist didn't have any effect?  Astounding!  What a brilliant conclusion on your part.


----------



## LaLinda75

*Will it be considered a hate crime if the person doing the killing is a minority who is here illegally and he/she kills a white person, a homosexual, a heterosexual while yelling slurs? Is it a hate crime when someone in the minority kills someone in the majority and uses slurs? Is it a hate crime when a minority kills a minority? Where are the lines drawn?  What if it had been two illegal latinos killing a white boy while shouting racial slurs?  Maybe the bleeding heart Jillian can answer. 
I agree with Toome. Murder is already a hate crime - no need to give it another status. B]*


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> No.  That someone kills someone because they are gay does not increase the penalty served under the current system.  Learn your facts first, please.



Wrong.  It would be an aggravating factor, just like a dozen other factors, that is considered during sentencing.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Umm...care to tell me how hate crimes legislation that didn't exist could have changed the sentences of Matthew Shephards killers?  Something that didn't exist didn't have any effect?  Astounding!  What a brilliant conclusion on your part.



Matthew Shepard's killers received life without the possibility of parole. Exactly how would you extend that sentence, Einstein?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  That someone kills someone because they are gay does not increase the penalty served under the current system.  Learn your facts first, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  It would be an aggravating factor, just like a dozen other factors, that is considered during sentencing.
Click to expand...


Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Umm...care to tell me how hate crimes legislation that didn't exist could have changed the sentences of Matthew Shephards killers?  Something that didn't exist didn't have any effect?  Astounding!  What a brilliant conclusion on your part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew Shepard's killers received life without the possibility of parole. Exactly how would you extend that sentence, Einstein?
Click to expand...


Nice nonsequiter there.  You stated that hate crime legislation that did not exist changed the sentence of Shephards killers.  You were, quite obviously, wrong.

By the way, this was a state crime.  Federal hate crime legislation would only effect federal crimes.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me whats stupid about it.  For those claiming that one person dead is one person dead, there IS no difference.
> 
> Motive matters.  Always has, always will.  People are fine with this, until it comes to hate crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motive is already taken into consideration in violent crimes.  That's why some murders are charged as 1st degree, some are charged as 2nd or 3rd degree, and some are charged as manslaughter.
> 
> Racial bias as a motive in the commission of  a crime is already considered as an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes, and would also impact how the charge was prosecuted.
> 
> What those of us who have some expertise in these matters are telling you, Nik, is that adding legislation to the books is a meaningless act of symbolism that won't prevent a single crime.  It is a sop to advocacy groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So motive matters...except if they are killing someone gay.  Got it.
Click to expand...


That's right.  I remember a co-worker in the lunch room commenting that he wished he had been present at the Shepard murder to hold the flashlight for the killers so that they could inflict even more torture on Matthew.


----------



## Nik

Sky Dancer said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Motive is already taken into consideration in violent crimes.  That's why some murders are charged as 1st degree, some are charged as 2nd or 3rd degree, and some are charged as manslaughter.
> 
> Racial bias as a motive in the commission of  a crime is already considered as an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes, and would also impact how the charge was prosecuted.
> 
> What those of us who have some expertise in these matters are telling you, Nik, is that adding legislation to the books is a meaningless act of symbolism that won't prevent a single crime.  It is a sop to advocacy groups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So motive matters...except if they are killing someone gay.  Got it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's right.  I remember a co-worker in the lunch room commenting that he wished he had been present at the Shepard murder to hold the flashlight for the killers so that they could inflict even more torture on Matthew.
Click to expand...


Shephard got all the attention cause he was tortured.  Anyone hear about the lesbian in Oakland who got attacked?  Or the 2 guys in NYC who got beaten with a lead pipe because they were "gay" (they actually weren't).  No?  Oh right...thats cause gays getting murdered isn't national news...its only local news.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> No.  That someone kills someone because they are gay does not increase the penalty served under the current system.  Learn your facts first, please.


The sexuality of the victim is never a factor, and it should never be


People, MATTHEW SHEPARD WAS NOT KILLED BECAUSE HE WAS GAY

he was killed during  a robbery


catzmeow said:


> Wrong.  It would be an aggravating factor, just like a dozen other factors, that is considered during sentencing.


They can't seem to grasp the concept, cat


Nik said:


> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.


As  do mos laws. That's the way a federated republic works




> I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.


see above


Nik said:


> Oh right...thats cause gays getting murdered isn't national news...its only local news.


That goes for most murders


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.



The homosexuality of the deceased ISN'T a factor.  The motivation of the killer WOULD BE.  God damn.  You have no idea what you're talking about here, do you?  You are literally talking out of your ass.

Also, the defendents in the Matthew Shepard case received life sentences without the possibility of parole. Again:  How would hate crimes legislation have impacted their sentences?  THEY ALREADY RECEIVED THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE POSSIBLE.

Well-intentioned idiots.

Guess what, y'all?  Passing new laws DOES NOT, and NEVER WILL, reduce crime.  Prosecuting crimes to the fullest, under the laws currently on the books, is the best possible solution.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> That's right.  I remember a co-worker in the lunch room commenting that he wished he had been present at the Shepard murder to hold the flashlight for the killers so that they could inflict even more torture on Matthew.



I call bullshit.


----------



## del

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right.  I remember a co-worker in the lunch room commenting that he wished he had been present at the Shepard murder to hold the flashlight for the killers so that they could inflict even more torture on Matthew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I call bullshit.
Click to expand...


it probably happened in some little backwater..........


----------



## catzmeow

del said:


> it probably happened in some little backwater..........



Last night, before she went to work...

And Matthew Shepard is actually her daughter's black boyfriend.


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  That someone kills someone because they are gay does not increase the penalty served under the current system.  Learn your facts first, please.
> 
> 
> 
> The sexuality of the victim is never a factor, and it should never be
> 
> People, MATTHEW SHEPARD WAS NOT KILLED BECAUSE HE WAS GAY
> 
> he was killed during  a robbery
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  It would be an aggravating factor, just like a dozen other factors, that is considered during sentencing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can't seem to grasp the concept, cat
> 
> As  do mos laws. That's the way a federated republic works
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> see above
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh right...thats cause gays getting murdered isn't national news...its only local news.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That goes for most murders
Click to expand...


He wasn't killed because he was gay?  Are you fucking kidding me?  So they took him out into the middle of nowhere, tortured him, and left him to a fence because they wanted to rob him?  Oh, and they just happened to find him in a gay bar?

Get a clue.  Its not surprise that its people like you who argue against hate crime legislation.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The homosexuality of the deceased ISN'T a factor.  The motivation of the killer WOULD BE.  God damn.  You have no idea what you're talking about here, do you?  You are literally talking out of your ass.
> 
> Also, the defendents in the Matthew Shepard case received life sentences without the possibility of parole. Again:  How would hate crimes legislation have impacted their sentences?  THEY ALREADY RECEIVED THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE POSSIBLE.
> 
> Well-intentioned idiots.
> 
> Guess what, y'all?  Passing new laws DOES NOT, and NEVER WILL, reduce crime.  Prosecuting crimes to the fullest, under the laws currently on the books, is the best possible solution.
Click to expand...


The motivation of the killer, in this case, is the same thing as the deceased being gay.  There is no real difference between the two.  Either it can come into play that he was killed for being gay, or not, make up your mind.

And no, Shephards killers didn't receive the maximum sentence possible.  The max sentence would be the death penalty.  And not everyone kills gays in such a horrific fashion that they would receive life in prison for the crime.  In fact, most don't.  You are taking one case and extrapolating its specifics to the whole which is quite obviously inapplicable.  

And any evidence that passing new laws does not, and never will, reduce crime?  Or is this just more made up bullshit on your part?


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> The motivation of the killer, in this case, is the same thing as the deceased being gay.  There is no real difference between the two.  Either it can come into play that he was killed for being gay, or not, make up your mind.



Actually, there is a huge difference between the two.  The fact that a victim is gay is ONLY relevant if that plays into the killer's motive.  Otherwise, it is totally irrelevant.  A victim is a victim.



> And no, Shephards killers didn't receive the maximum sentence possible.  The max sentence would be the death penalty.



The hate crimes legislation up for debate at present would not push a sentence from LWOP to the death penalty.  Thus, a discussion of the death penalty as a sanction is irrelevant.  It only tacks on years (1-5) to a sentence.  For a sentence of LWOP, even 5 years (the maximum) is irrelevant.



> And not everyone kills gays in such a horrific fashion that they would receive life in prison for the crime.  In fact, most don't.



I'm using the examples provided by you and Sky to support the need for these laws.  In both cases, the proposed legislation would have been irrelevant during sentencing.



> You are taking one case and extrapolating its specifics to the whole which is quite obviously inapplicable.



Actually, it is totally relevant.  The fact that a crime is committed out of a desire to attack an entire group of people is ALREADY part of the sentencing process.  Any legal expert will tell you that this law is extraneous to the existing sentence.  The fact is that prisons are overcrowded, and tacking a year onto someone's sentence is not going to make a substantial difference in time served.  If you want serious crimes to be treated seriously, there is no reason to segregate hate crimes for special treatment.



> And any evidence that passing new laws does not, and never will, reduce crime?  Or is this just more made up bullshit on your part?



You're in favor of the law.  Show me how hate crimes legislation on the state level have reduced hate crimes.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> Its not surprise that its people like you who argue against hate crime legislation.



People like me? And just what kind of people might that be, my ignorant friend?


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its not surprise that its people like you who argue against hate crime legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People like me? And just what kind of people might that be, my ignorant friend?
Click to expand...


Homophobic dipshits.  "He wasn't killed cause he was gay"....pssh, my ass he wasn't.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Homophobic dipshits.



Amazing how you can draw such a precise conclusion from a single exchange on an online messageboard.


----------



## Gurdari

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man? It isn't. Why is ignoring international immigration law OK for Latin Americans?



Hahaha, those evil Mexicans, creating jobs for themselves and... oh wait. They are being HIRED, and encouraged to come here for work... who would do that? 

Must be other illegals. REAL Americans would never profit from such lawless behavior.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sky Dancer said:


> "A federal hate crimes law already exists: Passed in 1968, it allowed federal investigation and prosecution of hate crimes based on race, religion, and national origin. The new law would simply add sexual orientation and gender identity to the protected groups, and allow local governments to get needed resources from the federal government for investigations and prosecutions. The need for such parity was made starkly clear more than a decade ago, in 1998, during the investigations of two different murders:
> 
> The Laramie, Wyoming Sheriffs Office had to furlough five deputies in order to cover the more than $150,000 that it cost to investigate Matthew Shepards murder. Yet when Jasper, Texas investigated the lynching of James Byrd, Jr., it received $284,000 in federal funds because Byrds murder was motivated by race, rather than sexual orientation."
> Think Progress » GOP Hysterical Over Hate Crimes Bill Because It Would Protect Gay People



I haven't seen anyone opposing hate crimes legislation for gay people. All I've seen on here is people opposing it period. 

You shouldn't do murder, period. A rule that says you shouldn't do murder, especially if the person has "XYZ" characteristic, is redundant and ill-considered.

If you would like to make something criminal that is not already criminal, I'm all ears. But, in my opinion we can skip redundant criminalization.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Gurdari said:


> SW2SILVERQUASI said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is killing a white man less of a crime than killing a black man? It isn't. Why is ignoring international immigration law OK for Latin Americans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, those evil Mexicans, creating jobs for themselves and... oh wait. They are being HIRED, and encouraged to come here for work... who would do that?
> 
> Must be other illegals. REAL Americans would never profit from such lawless behavior.
Click to expand...


The government of Mexico is doing a large portion of it. This includes activities such as providing official documents for illegals, lobbying and advocating for the provision of drivers licenses, medical care, education exemptions, mortgages etc for illegals. 

Why would the Government of Mexico do this? How about they have exported 27% of their labor for to the US? How about they get more than $20 Billion annually pumped into their economy from money sent to family members from laborers in the US.

This is not simply a matter of individuals flouting the law of another country to do what they want. This is the stated policy of the Mexican government. 

As for US employers that employ illegals, they are law violators and should be punished in accordance with the law. However, whether to punish employers or not is usually just an excuse for not looking at the real problem, the borders need to be enforced by the federal government. It's the LAW. The Federal Government is charged with carrying out the laws enacted by the Congress. Until it is not the LAW anymore, the Homeland Security Department needs to enforce the immigration laws of this country.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  That someone kills someone because they are gay does not increase the penalty served under the current system.  Learn your facts first, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  It would be an aggravating factor, just like a dozen other factors, that is considered during sentencing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.
Click to expand...


It doesn't need to be. In Shepard's case, for instance, the horrific manner of death would have been sufficient to get all the "extra" sentence you are going to get. Providing information that he was also gay and killed because of it, would have yielded nothing additional.

How should we distinguish the recent case to of the lesbian couple in the SF area? Facts: A lengthy relationship between the two turned sour. They were co-habiting but did not have funds to live separately when the relationship died. One began having a romantic relationship with another person. This went on for some period of months. Eventually, the uninvolved woman stabbed the involved roommate some 40 times and dumped her body.

Should she be charged with a hate crime? What if she yelled, "Die you fucking Dyke!" while she was stabbing her? Would that make a difference? If so, why? How is that workable in the general law? If I'm a self-loathing homosexual, do I get charged with a hate crime or am I permanently exempted?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Tech_Esq said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  It would be an aggravating factor, just like a dozen other factors, that is considered during sentencing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't need to be. In Shepard's case, for instance, the horrific manner of death would have been sufficient to get all the "extra" sentence you are going to get. Providing information that he was also gay and killed because of it, would have yielded nothing additional.
> 
> How should we distinguish the recent case to of the lesbian couple in the SF area? Facts: A lengthy relationship between the two turned sour. They were co-habiting but did not have funds to live separately when the relationship died. One began having a romantic relationship with another person. This went on for some period of months. Eventually, the uninvolved woman stabbed the involved roommate some 40 times and dumped her body.
> 
> Should she be charged with a hate crime? What if she yelled, "Die you fucking Dyke!" while she was stabbing her? Would that make a difference? If so, why? How is that workable in the general law? If I'm a self-loathing homosexual, do I get charged with a hate crime or am I permanently exempted?
Click to expand...


You've missed the point, and taken off on some sensational murder case that involves lesbians.  Your position is what?  This would theoretically be a hate crime, if one lesbian called the other a dyke while stabbing her 40 times??   Clearly, you have no idea what hate crime is, or why the legislation is needed and important.    Your analogies are ridiculous.

If the Matthew Shepard case had been tried under the Matthew Shepard Act, the local courts could have applied for additional funds to try the case.

All the Matthew Shepard Act does is add sexual orientation to existing hate crime legislation.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't need to be. In Shepard's case, for instance, the horrific manner of death would have been sufficient to get all the "extra" sentence you are going to get. Providing information that he was also gay and killed because of it, would have yielded nothing additional.
> 
> How should we distinguish the recent case to of the lesbian couple in the SF area? Facts: A lengthy relationship between the two turned sour. They were co-habiting but did not have funds to live separately when the relationship died. One began having a romantic relationship with another person. This went on for some period of months. Eventually, the uninvolved woman stabbed the involved roommate some 40 times and dumped her body.
> 
> Should she be charged with a hate crime? What if she yelled, "Die you fucking Dyke!" while she was stabbing her? Would that make a difference? If so, why? How is that workable in the general law? If I'm a self-loathing homosexual, do I get charged with a hate crime or am I permanently exempted?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You've missed the point, and taken off on some sensational murder case that involves lesbians.  Your position is what?  This would theoretically be a hate crime, if one lesbian called the other a dyke while stabbing her 40 times??   Clearly, you have no idea what hate crime is, or why the legislation is needed and important.    Your analogies are ridiculous.
> 
> If the Matthew Shepard case had been tried under the Matthew Shepard Act, the local courts could have applied for additional funds to try the case.
> 
> All the Matthew Shepard Act does is add sexual orientation to existing hate crime legislation.
Click to expand...


the legislation is neither needed nor important so it does have that in common with existing hate crime legislation.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sky Dancer said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't need to be. In Shepard's case, for instance, the horrific manner of death would have been sufficient to get all the "extra" sentence you are going to get. Providing information that he was also gay and killed because of it, would have yielded nothing additional.
> 
> How should we distinguish the recent case to of the lesbian couple in the SF area? Facts: A lengthy relationship between the two turned sour. They were co-habiting but did not have funds to live separately when the relationship died. One began having a romantic relationship with another person. This went on for some period of months. Eventually, the uninvolved woman stabbed the involved roommate some 40 times and dumped her body.
> 
> Should she be charged with a hate crime? What if she yelled, "Die you fucking Dyke!" while she was stabbing her? Would that make a difference? If so, why? How is that workable in the general law? If I'm a self-loathing homosexual, do I get charged with a hate crime or am I permanently exempted?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You've missed the point.  If the Matthew Shepard case had been tried under the Matthew Shepard Act, the local courts could have applied for additional funds to try the case.
> 
> All the Matthew Shepard Act does is add sexual orientation to existing hate crime legislation.
Click to expand...


I may have missed the point, but, I think you have as well. You got as good as you were going to get in the Shepard case. There was no more. So why apply more funds to it?

If you hit a home run in baseball, its not like if you had hit it out of the stadium you get to run the bases twice. It's the same. A home run is a home run. You got life without parole, that's all you're going to get.

Now, me being pro-death, I might argue that I would want the death penalty, but it looks like that's an endangered species now anyway, so no need to muddy the waters.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its not surprise that its people like you who argue against hate crime legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People like me? And just what kind of people might that be, my ignorant friend?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Homophobic dipshits. .
Click to expand...











You get the award for dumbest person on the board.







catzmeow said:


> Amazing how you can draw such a precise conclusion from a single exchange on an online messageboard.


And be so wrong


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homophobic dipshits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how you can draw such a precise conclusion from a single exchange on an online messageboard.
Click to expand...


Please give me some other explanation for someone claiming that Shephard wasn't murdered because he was gay.  It was "just a robbery".


----------



## Nik

Tech_Esq said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  It would be an aggravating factor, just like a dozen other factors, that is considered during sentencing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aggravating factors differ with jurisdiction.  I doubt many jurisdictions have allowed the homosexuality of the deceased to be an aggravating factor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't need to be. In Shepard's case, for instance, the horrific manner of death would have been sufficient to get all the "extra" sentence you are going to get. Providing information that he was also gay and killed because of it, would have yielded nothing additional.
> 
> How should we distinguish the recent case to of the lesbian couple in the SF area? Facts: A lengthy relationship between the two turned sour. They were co-habiting but did not have funds to live separately when the relationship died. One began having a romantic relationship with another person. This went on for some period of months. Eventually, the uninvolved woman stabbed the involved roommate some 40 times and dumped her body.
> 
> Should she be charged with a hate crime? What if she yelled, "Die you fucking Dyke!" while she was stabbing her? Would that make a difference? If so, why? How is that workable in the general law? If I'm a self-loathing homosexual, do I get charged with a hate crime or am I permanently exempted?
Click to expand...


Shephards not the only gay to get murdered for being gay.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Please give me some other explanation for someone claiming that Shephard wasn't murdered because he was gay.  It was "just a robbery".



Misinformed.  Or, robbery could have been a motive in the crime.  I'd have to research it.

It's like Cassie whatshername from Columbine, they wrote the book about her murder and how "she said yes," and then the reports come out, and the two gunmen never even talked to her.

There are a lot of myths and misinformation that circulate around stories like this.

I'm not going to jump to the hysterical conclusion that the dude is a homophobe just because he presents an alternative motive.  He may be, he may not be, but that's simply not enough evidence either way.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Shephards not the only gay to get murdered for being gay.



Tech gave you another example of a gay person being murdered.  How about you go back, read it, and write an actual response.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shephards not the only gay to get murdered for being gay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tech gave you another example of a gay person being murdered.  How about you go back, read it, and write an actual response.
Click to expand...


He did not give me an example of a gay person murdered * for being gay*.  So why exactly is a response necessary?


----------



## catzmeow

Apparently, he got it from the perpetrators' testimony:

New Details Emerge in Matthew Shepard Murder - ABC News


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> He did not give me an example of a gay person murdered * for being gay*.  So why exactly is a response necessary?



Because the same characteristics would attach to a so-called hate crime.  Even the Shepard crime was not as clear-cut as gay advocates suggest, apparently.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Apparently, he got it from the perpetrators' testimony:
> 
> New Details Emerge in Matthew Shepard Murder - ABC News



*sigh*

They went into a gay bar, robbed him, tortured him, then left him tied to a fence to die.  That they robbed him doesn't make it a simple robbery, and that they went, specifically, to a gay bar to get someone who was gay, makes it a hate crime specifically against gays.  

I'm sure he knows those facts.  Exactly what reason would he have for claiming that it was "merely" a robbery, and not people intent of murdering a homosexual?


----------



## catzmeow

> Helping fuel the gay hate crime theory were statements made to police and the media by Kristen Price, McKinney's girlfriend. (Price was charged with felony accessory after-the-fact to first-degree murder. She later pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of misdemeanor interference with police officers.)
> 
> Price now says that at the time of the crime she thought things would go easier for McKinney if his violence were seen as a panic reaction to an unwanted gay sexual advance.
> 
> *But today, Price tells Vargas the initial statements she made were not true and tells Vargas that McKinney's motive was money and drugs. "I don't think it was a hate crime at all. I never did," she said*.
> 
> *Former Laramie Police Detective Ben Fritzen, one of the lead investigators in the case, also believed robbery was the primary motive*. "Matthew Shepard's sexual preference or sexual orientation certainly wasn't the motive in the homicide," he said.
> 
> "If it wasn't Shepard, they would have found another easy target. What it came down to really is drugs and money and two punks that were out looking for it," Fritzen said.
> 
> *Asked directly whether he targeted and attacked Shepard because he was gay, McKinney told Vargas, "No. I did not. ... I would say it wasn't a hate crime. All I wanted to do was beat him up and rob him." *
> 
> But if the attackers were just trying to rob someone to get a drug fix, why did they beat Shepard so savagely?
> 
> Rerucha attributes McKinney's rage and his savage beating of Shepard to his drug abuse. "The methamphetamine just fueled to this point where there was no control. It was a horrible, horrible, horrible murder. It was a murder that was once again driven by drugs," Rerucha said.
> 
> Dr. Rick Rawson, a professor at UCLA who has studied the link between methamphetamine and violence, tells "20/20" the drug can trigger episodes of violent behavior.
> 
> "In the first weeks after you've stopped using it, the kinds of triggers that can set off an episode are completely unpredictable. It can be: you say a word with the wrong inflection, you touch someone on the shoulder. It's completely unpredictable as to what will set somebody off" Rawson said.
> 
> "If Aaron McKinney had not become involved with methamphetamine, Matthew Shepard would be alive today," Rerucha said.



Having worked with tweakers, I think there may be some truth to the methamphetamine connection.  Meth makes people crazy.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> I'm sure he knows those facts.  Exactly what reason would he have for claiming that it was "merely" a robbery, and not people intent of murdering a homosexual?



Apparently, the same reason that the lead detective on the case concluded the same thing.  

But, who needs facts when you've already made up your mind, right, Nik?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Helping fuel the gay hate crime theory were statements made to police and the media by Kristen Price, McKinney's girlfriend. (Price was charged with felony accessory after-the-fact to first-degree murder. She later pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of misdemeanor interference with police officers.)
> 
> Price now says that at the time of the crime she thought things would go easier for McKinney if his violence were seen as a panic reaction to an unwanted gay sexual advance.
> 
> *But today, Price tells Vargas the initial statements she made were not true and tells Vargas that McKinney's motive was money and drugs. "I don't think it was a hate crime at all. I never did," she said*.
> 
> *Former Laramie Police Detective Ben Fritzen, one of the lead investigators in the case, also believed robbery was the primary motive*. "Matthew Shepard's sexual preference or sexual orientation certainly wasn't the motive in the homicide," he said.
> 
> "If it wasn't Shepard, they would have found another easy target. What it came down to really is drugs and money and two punks that were out looking for it," Fritzen said.
> 
> *Asked directly whether he targeted and attacked Shepard because he was gay, McKinney told Vargas, "No. I did not. ... I would say it wasn't a hate crime. All I wanted to do was beat him up and rob him." *
> 
> But if the attackers were just trying to rob someone to get a drug fix, why did they beat Shepard so savagely?
> 
> Rerucha attributes McKinney's rage and his savage beating of Shepard to his drug abuse. "The methamphetamine just fueled to this point where there was no control. It was a horrible, horrible, horrible murder. It was a murder that was once again driven by drugs," Rerucha said.
> 
> Dr. Rick Rawson, a professor at UCLA who has studied the link between methamphetamine and violence, tells "20/20" the drug can trigger episodes of violent behavior.
> 
> "In the first weeks after you've stopped using it, the kinds of triggers that can set off an episode are completely unpredictable. It can be: you say a word with the wrong inflection, you touch someone on the shoulder. It's completely unpredictable as to what will set somebody off" Rawson said.
> 
> "If Aaron McKinney had not become involved with methamphetamine, Matthew Shepard would be alive today," Rerucha said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having worked with tweakers, I think there may be some truth to the methamphetamine connection.  Meth makes people crazy.
Click to expand...


Their girlfriends testified that they weren't on drugs when they kill Shephard.

Next?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure he knows those facts.  Exactly what reason would he have for claiming that it was "merely" a robbery, and not people intent of murdering a homosexual?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, the same reason that the lead detective on the case concluded the same thing.
> 
> But, who needs facts when you've already made up your mind, right, Nik?
Click to expand...


I, unlike you, actually know the facts.  I didn't need to do research to know that they robbed Shephard, as well as beating and torturing him.  Oh, and by the way, the shit you spewed before about both murderers serving the "max possible sentence" was incorrect.  

And yeah...the robbers didn't kill him because he was gay.  They just used a "gay panic" defense at trial .  But no...it had nothing to do with his homosexuality at all.

The shit some people will believe.  Christ.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Their girlfriends testified that they weren't on drugs when they kill Shephard.
> 
> Next?



And now they've recanted.  You claimed that presuming that another poster was a homophobe was the only reasonable conclusion based upon calling this case a robbery.  Is the Laramie police investigator ALSO a homophobe?

My point to you is that you can't assume someone is a homophobe simply because they have different information, and come to a different conclusion, than you do.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Their girlfriends testified that they weren't on drugs when they kill Shephard.
> 
> Next?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And now they've recanted.  You claimed that presuming that another poster was a homophobe was the only reasonable conclusion based upon calling this case a robbery.  Is the Laramie police investigator ALSO a homophobe?
> 
> My point to you is that you can't assume someone is a homophobe simply because they have different information, and come to a different conclusion, than you do.
Click to expand...


They also testified that McKinnery and Henderson went out specifically looking for someone gay.  In court.  Under oath.  

This shit was in Wyoming in 1998.  Yeah...it was just a robbery


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> I, unlike you, actually know the facts.  I didn't need to do research to know that they robbed Shephard, as well as beating and torturing him.  Oh, and by the way, the shit you spewed before about both murderers serving the "max possible sentence" was incorrect.



Both defendants were sentenced to two consecutive life sentences, ensuring they will do life in prison without the possibility of parole. (LWOP)



> Hoping a Wyoming jury would be sympathetic to gay panic did not pay off. McKinney was found guilty and wound up with two life sentences, assuring he'll spend the rest of his life in prison, the same sentence received by his accomplice Russell Henderson


.  (from the linked article).




> And yeah...the robbers didn't kill him because he was gay.  They just used a "gay panic" defense at trial .



From the linked article:  





> O'Connor had known Aaron McKinney for years. In flush times, McKinney partied in O'Connor's limos, and, in fact, McKinney and his girlfriend lived for a while in an apartment on O'Connor's property.
> 
> O'Connor says he never heard McKinney express any anti-gay attitudes. In his interview with Vargas, O'Connor reveals his belief that McKinney is bisexual. "I know of an instance where he had a three-way, two guys and one gal," he said. "Because he did it with me."
> 
> O'Connor added, "I know he's bisexual. There ain't no doubt in my mind. He is bisexual."
> 
> McKinney's former girlfriend Price says she now believes that as well. "He was always into trying to talk me into having a three-way with one of his guy friends," she said.
> 
> In her prison interview with McKinney, Vargas asked McKinney directly whether he had had any sexual encounters with men. McKinney said no.
> 
> Displaying a strong aversion to homosexual sex was a tactic McKinney tried at his trial. His lawyers developed a so-called "gay panic defense," claiming homosexual abuse McKinney suffered as a child caused him to overreact to a sexual advance by Shepard and triggered the violent attack.




Yeah.  You know.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> They also testified that McKinnery and Henderson went out specifically looking for someone gay.  In court.  Under oath.
> 
> This shit was in Wyoming in 1998.  Yeah...it was just a robbery





> O'Connor had known Aaron McKinney for years. In flush times, McKinney partied in O'Connor's limos, and, in fact, McKinney and his girlfriend lived for a while in an apartment on O'Connor's property.
> 
> O'Connor says he never heard McKinney express any anti-gay attitudes. In his interview with Vargas, O'Connor reveals his belief that McKinney is bisexual. "I know of an instance where he had a three-way, two guys and one gal," he said. "Because he did it with me."
> 
> O'Connor added, "I know he's bisexual. There ain't no doubt in my mind. He is bisexual."



I know this is going to shock you, Nik, but people lie, all the time, in court, under oath.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I, unlike you, actually know the facts.  I didn't need to do research to know that they robbed Shephard, as well as beating and torturing him.  Oh, and by the way, the shit you spewed before about both murderers serving the "max possible sentence" was incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both defendants were sentenced to two consecutive life sentences, ensuring they will do life in prison without the possibility of parole. (LWOP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoping a Wyoming jury would be sympathetic to gay panic did not pay off. McKinney was found guilty and wound up with two life sentences, assuring he'll spend the rest of his life in prison, the same sentence received by his accomplice Russell Henderson
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .  (from the linked article).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yeah...the robbers didn't kill him because he was gay.  They just used a "gay panic" defense at trial .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From the linked article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O'Connor had known Aaron McKinney for years. In flush times, McKinney partied in O'Connor's limos, and, in fact, McKinney and his girlfriend lived for a while in an apartment on O'Connor's property.
> 
> O'Connor says he never heard McKinney express any anti-gay attitudes. In his interview with Vargas, O'Connor reveals his belief that McKinney is bisexual. "I know of an instance where he had a three-way, two guys and one gal," he said. "Because he did it with me."
> 
> O'Connor added, "I know he's bisexual. There ain't no doubt in my mind. He is bisexual."
> 
> McKinney's former girlfriend Price says she now believes that as well. "He was always into trying to talk me into having a three-way with one of his guy friends," she said.
> 
> In her prison interview with McKinney, Vargas asked McKinney directly whether he had had any sexual encounters with men. McKinney said no.
> 
> Displaying a strong aversion to homosexual sex was a tactic McKinney tried at his trial. His lawyers developed a so-called "gay panic defense," claiming homosexual abuse McKinney suffered as a child caused him to overreact to a sexual advance by Shepard and triggered the violent attack.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.  You know.
Click to expand...


One got the punishment with a possibility of parole, one did not.  And McKinneys sexual orientation is irrelevant.  See Ted Haggard and numerous other virulently anti-gay, gay Republicans.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> One got the punishment with a possibility of parole, one did not.



Feel free to prove this comment.

You've brought your opinions you've spouted out of your ass, I've at least tried to support my arguments with evidence.

Pwned.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> One got the punishment with a possibility of parole, one did not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to prove this comment.
> 
> You've brought your opinions you've spouted out of your ass, I've at least tried to support my arguments with evidence.
> 
> Pwned.
Click to expand...


Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999, and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences. (which has the possiblity of parole--however unlikely that seems).  He may be eligible for parole after serving two back to back life sentences in 14 years.

The jury in McKinney's trial found him guilty of felony murder. As it began to deliberate on the death penalty, Shepard's parents brokered a deal, resulting in McKinney receiving two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999, and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences. (which has the possiblity of parole--however unlikely that seems).  He may be eligible for parole after serving two back to back life sentences in 14 years.



Two consecutive life sentences does not equal parole.  And eligibility for parole does not equal parole.  A hate crimes charge on top of that would not equal additional time served.


----------



## del

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure he knows those facts.  Exactly what reason would he have for claiming that it was "merely" a robbery, and not people intent of murdering a homosexual?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, the same reason that the lead detective on the case concluded the same thing.
> 
> But, who needs facts when you've already made up your mind, right, Nik?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I, unlike you, actually know the facts.  I didn't need to do research to know that they robbed Shephard, as well as beating and torturing him.  Oh, and by the way, the shit you spewed before about both murderers serving the "max possible sentence" was incorrect.
> 
> And yeah...the robbers didn't kill him because he was gay.  They just used a "gay panic" defense at trial .  But no...it had nothing to do with his homosexuality at all.
> 
> The shit some people will believe.  Christ.
Click to expand...


you wouldn't know a fact if it handed you a calling card and bit you on the ass.

are you the friend sky dancer brings along to make her look smart?

thought so.

tough break


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> One got the punishment with a possibility of parole, one did not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to prove this comment.
> 
> You've brought your opinions you've spouted out of your ass, I've at least tried to support my arguments with evidence.
> 
> Pwned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999, and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences. (which has the possiblity of parole--however unlikely that seems).  He may be eligible for parole after serving two back to back life sentences in 14 years.
> 
> The jury in McKinney's trial found him guilty of felony murder. As it began to deliberate on the death penalty, Shepard's parents brokered a deal, resulting in McKinney receiving two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.
Click to expand...


the good thing about you being a middle aged lesbian is that you presumably haven't reproduced.

i've met more intelligent garden implements.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> They went into a gay bar, robbed him, tortured him, then left him tied to a fence to die.  That they robbed him doesn't make it a simple robbery, and that they went, specifically, to a gay bar to get someone who was gay, makes it a hate crime specifically against gays.



Or what they presumed would be an easy target 






Nik said:


> I, unlike you, actually know the facts.




-because he was there, holding Matthew Sheppard down and screaming 'DIE YOU FUCKING FAGGOT!'



> I didn't need to do research


Because he'll never accept new information


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> One got the punishment with a possibility of parole, one did not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to prove this comment.
> 
> You've brought your opinions you've spouted out of your ass, I've at least tried to support my arguments with evidence.
> 
> Pwned.
Click to expand...


Try Wiki, dumbshit.  If you knew how to read, I wouldn't need to present you with the facts, repeatedly.


----------



## dj defkawn

Lilo you must seriously be on drugs or something. A murder is wrong no matter what the premise. Also people as a young black person, if I committed a racially motivated violent crime against a white person, that'd be every bit as much a hate crime as if the shoe was on the other foot.


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> They went into a gay bar, robbed him, tortured him, then left him tied to a fence to die.  That they robbed him doesn't make it a simple robbery, and that they went, specifically, to a gay bar to get someone who was gay, makes it a hate crime specifically against gays.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or what they presumed would be an easy target
Click to expand...


And what exactly is it about Shephard being gay that makes him an easy target?




> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I, unlike you, actually know the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -because he was there, holding Matthew Sheppard down and screaming 'DIE YOU FUCKING FAGGOT!'
Click to expand...


Try to be a little bit less retarded.  Thanks.




> I didn't need to do research
> 
> 
> 
> Because he'll never accept new information
Click to expand...

[/quote]

No, because I've already done the research.  This is an issue that matters to me, and I know quite a bit about it.


----------



## Nik

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to prove this comment.
> 
> You've brought your opinions you've spouted out of your ass, I've at least tried to support my arguments with evidence.
> 
> Pwned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999, and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences. (which has the possiblity of parole--however unlikely that seems).  He may be eligible for parole after serving two back to back life sentences in 14 years.
> 
> The jury in McKinney's trial found him guilty of felony murder. As it began to deliberate on the death penalty, Shepard's parents brokered a deal, resulting in McKinney receiving two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the good thing about you being a middle aged lesbian is that you presumably haven't reproduced.
> 
> i've met more intelligent garden implements.
Click to expand...


Its called IVF.  If you aren't going to add anything substantial, at least throw in insults that aren't so moronic.


----------



## del

Nik said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999, and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences. (which has the possiblity of parole--however unlikely that seems).  He may be eligible for parole after serving two back to back life sentences in 14 years.
> 
> The jury in McKinney's trial found him guilty of felony murder. As it began to deliberate on the death penalty, Shepard's parents brokered a deal, resulting in McKinney receiving two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the good thing about you being a middle aged lesbian is that you presumably haven't reproduced.
> 
> i've met more intelligent garden implements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its called IVF.  If you aren't going to add anything substantial, at least throw in insults that aren't so moronic.
Click to expand...




need some help unwadding your bloomers, dear?


----------



## Nik

del said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> the good thing about you being a middle aged lesbian is that you presumably haven't reproduced.
> 
> i've met more intelligent garden implements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its called IVF.  If you aren't going to add anything substantial, at least throw in insults that aren't so moronic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> need some help unwadding your bloomers, dear?
Click to expand...


tsk tsk.  I offer constructive critism to you, and you want to talk about bloomers?  So sensitive.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> And what exactly is it about Shephard being gay that makes him an easy target?



You're an idiot






> Try to be a little bit less retarded.  Thanks.



I really wish you would


----------



## Lonestar_logic

dj defkawn said:


> Lilo you must seriously be on drugs or something. A murder is wrong no matter what the premise. Also people as a young black person, if I committed a racially motivated violent crime against a white person, that'd be every bit as much a hate crime as if the shoe was on the other foot.



Can you provide one instance where a black man was charged with a hate crime?


----------



## Nik

Lonestar_logic said:


> dj defkawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lilo you must seriously be on drugs or something. A murder is wrong no matter what the premise. Also people as a young black person, if I committed a racially motivated violent crime against a white person, that'd be every bit as much a hate crime as if the shoe was on the other foot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you provide one instance where a black man was charged with a hate crime?
Click to expand...


Can you provide me one instance where a black guy killed someone white in a racially motivated attack?


----------



## catzmeow

Denver, CO - A White female teenager, Brandy DuvaI, is raped, sodomized, tortured with a broomstick and stabbed 28 times by a gang of six blacks and Hispanics. Her skull is caved in and corpse dumped into a ditch. Police confiscate a blood soaked mattress as evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Killeen, TX - A White couple, Todd and Stacy Bagley are kidnapped on the way to church, lit on fire, burned to death and shot in the head by four blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Flint, MI - Three White teenagers, Michael Carter, Dustin Kaiser and (girls name withheld by police) are attacked by six black youths. Carter is shot and killed. Kaiser is beaten and shot in the head, but recovers. The girl is forced to perform oral sex on her black attackers, pistol whipped and shot in the face. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

South Carolina - A White female, Melissa McLaughlin, is raped, tortured and skinned alive in a tub of bleach by seven blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Racine, WI - A black gang member, Nazeer Ghani, fires into a crowd of White concert-goers while shouting racial epithets, killing father of two, Joe Rowan. Although identified by 30 witnesses, police release the killer for lack of evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Jacksonville, FL - A mentally retarded White man, Gregory Griffith, is beaten and stomped unconscious by blacks. The blacks admitted to the police that they beat Griffith because he was White. The group allegedly had planned to attack the first White man who walked down the street. A witness testified that he saw fists flying and a White man backing out of a crowd, swinging and ducking before falling to the ground and being kicked in the midriff and head. Griffith died 13 days later from blunt head trauma.

Kansas City, MO - A black male shoots two White co-workers, Michael Scott and Traci Riehle. Scott is killed and Riehle is critically injured. Police find a note referring to blood sucker supreme White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Alexandria, VA - An eight year old White child, Kevin Shifflet, is killed when his throat is slit by a black who also stabs his 80 year old great grandmother and punches her in the chest. Police find a rambling, handwritten note stating. Kill them raceess whiate kidds anyway. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Burlington, NC - A 10 year old White child, Tiffany Long, is raped, sodomized, sexually tortured and murdered by two black males and a black female. The black female rams a broomstick up her vagina and rectum. The parents were prohibited from seeing their dead daughters body. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Fayetteville, NC - Two white women, Tracy Lambert and Susan Moore, are carjacked by a group of seven blacks and Hispanics and shot execution style in the head. This murder was part of a gang initiation. The bullets found in the victims heads were painted blue, the Crips gang color. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Miami, FL - Seven Whites are murdered by the Yahweh Cult whose leader orders the members to cut off and return the ears of the victims as proof of the murders. The trial was conducted at the same time as the Rodney King trial! This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Cincinnati, OH - Bricks were thrown by black rioters through car windows at the heads of any White drivers unfortunate enough to be in the area. A White woman was dragged from her car and brutally beaten by a black mob. An albino African American woman suffered a similar fate until a voice called out, she is black. At which point the beating stopped. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Charleston, SC - Troy Knapp and his friend, Gary Thornburg were riding their bicycles when they happened onto a group of black men. This mob attacked the two White men, knocking Gary unconscious and beating Troy with various objects including pipes. A large portion of Knapps skull had to be removed to allow for swelling in his brain. A damaged portion of his brain had to be surgically removed. He is seriously and permanently injured, and will never recover from the injuries of this beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Wilkinsburg, PA - A black man, Ronald Taylor shot five Whites, killing three. A black acquaintance stated that Taylor had said, Im gonna kill all White people. Prior to the attack, he told a black woman that he wouldnt hurt her because he was out to get all White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Wichita, KS - Two black men broke in to a house and attacked five young Whites, all in their twenties, threatening them with guns. After driving their victims to an ATM and ordering them to withdraw money, the kidnappers took them to a deserted soccer field. There they raped the two White women in front of the men, including the fiancé of one of the young men. Finally they ordered the five White victims to kneel and shot them all execution style. Only one of the young women was not killed. She walked more than a mile, naked and bleeding through the snow until she found help. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Seattle, WA - Mardi Gras or Fat Tuesday celebrations in that city were disrupted when gangs of black men roamed the crowd of thousands attacking White men and women, killing one and injuring 72. They were heard yelling racial epithets during their attacks. Killed was Kris Kime, beaten to death with a 40 ounce beer bottle after coming to the aid of a White woman he didnt know who was being attacked by the black mob. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Charlottesville, VA  Police arrested 9 black men for a series of vicious gang assaults against White students in that college town. Of the nine arrested, one was an adult and the rest juveniles, one a local high school football star. Even though some of the blacks told cops that they intentionally chose their victims based on their race, authorities have declined to classify the attacks as racially motivated. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Salina, KS - A White man, Michael Streeter, 21, was kidnapped by three black men while pumping gas into his SUV. After being driven to a remote location, Streeter had an ear and multiple fingers hacked off, an eye gouged out, then was repeatedly run over with his own SUV, breaking his ribs and puncturing his lungs. The vehicle was found abandoned and on fire a short distance from the attack. The same blacks are suspects in the car-jacking of Postal employee Kyle James, 43, eight days earlier, during which the blacks used racial slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Annapolis, MD - Three black teen-agers were charged with armed robbery in the attack of a White woman, Tracy VanDagna, 22, which left her in need of plastic surgery. One of the alleged perpetrators, Tacarra Tyler, 17, was charged as an adult. VanDagna was walking to her car when a black man struck her in the face with a rock, knocking her to the ground, then grabbed her hair and pulled her head back while a boy ran up and repeatedly kicked her in the face. The victim suffered a broken nose and needed five stitches on her hand. Police said that even after VanDagna turned over her backpack, the teen-agers continued to attack her. One witness told investigators that the assailants said they beat up Whites because they dont like them. This was investigated as a hate crime.

St. Lucie, FL - Three black males in a racially motivated attack beat a White female high school student. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Delray Beach, FL - Crystal Monique Thomas, 19, and Crystal Antoinette Adams, 20, were charged with battery for yelling racial slurs at a White woman. Thomas was also charged with a hate crime for slapping the woman and calling her a stupid White bitch.

Tampa, FL - Two black youths, Telly S. Warren, 14, and James Taylor, 17, were charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon for throwing a deadly missile into a vehicle occupied by White passengers.

San Francisco, CA - Lavonne Adams, 42, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and felony assault for kicking a White woman using a walker who fell, broke her hip and later died.

Seattle, WA - Police asked prosecutors to consider hate crimes charges against a black teen who is accused of beating up and robbing Whites during Mardi Gras. The perpetrator allegedly told police he believed he was in the middle of a racial war.

San Bernardino, CA - Catzrina Tatum, a 25-year-old black woman, was charged with suspicion of a hate crime for assaulting a White woman because of the womans ethnicity.

Bowie, MD - Three black high school girls were charged with second-degree assault for attacking and verbally abusing a White male student. The three girls, one of whom was overheard saying she hated White people and that she and her friend would pick on a different White person each day  pushed the boy to the ground. The boy suffered a contusion to the head, a bloody nose and scrapes and bruises.

Geneva, IL - A 32-year-old black man was charged with aggravated assault after he threatened to kill White police officers and their families.

Minneapolis, MN - During a blizzard a car full of black gang members becomes stuck in the snow behind that of a White family. When the family got out of the car to help, they were beaten with baseball bats, with their 10 year old son going into a coma. The media reported that police were looking for a blue car full of men without mentioning the race of the attackers. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Springfield, TN - Two black teenagers murdered

a White man who had displayed a Confederate flag on his pickup truck. According to testimony, on Jan. 14, 1995, the two black teenagers were cruising the highway when they spotted Michael Westerman, 19, and his wife Hannah, 21. Angered by the flag, the teenagers rounded up two other cars and followed Mr. Westerman and his wife. Boxing Westermans vehicle in with one car, the black youths pulled along side and shot Mr. Westerman to death. The two teenagers were found guilty of murder and attempted aggravated kidnapping. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Fall River, IL - Four black men, Damien Gouse, 20, Terry Lewis, 17, William Wheeler, 22, and John Baker, 19, were charged with attempted murder for shooting a White teenager.-This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Edwardsville, IL - A black man, Taiwan Davis, 17, was convicted of first-degree murder for his participation in the mob-style beating death in August of a White man. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Alton, IL - A White male, Richard Skelton, is attacked and stomped to death by a group of 25 blacks while black onlookers yell, Kill the cracker. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Los Angeles, CA - Race riots erupt throughout the city resulting in 53 deaths, 10,000 arrests, 2,300 injuries, more than 1,000 buildings lost to fire, thousands of jobs lost and an estimated cost to the city of $1 billion in damages. The riots lasted several days, during which time, Reginald Denny, a White truck driver, was pulled from his truck by Damian Monroe Williams and Henry Keith Watson, who began beating and kicking him unmercifully. When he was dazed and helpless, Watson pinned him down with a foot on his neck while Williams threw a brick at his head, disfiguring and nearly killing him. Then Williams did a little victory dance. Denny, a man his attackers didnt even know, was hospitalized for 16 days for multiple physical injuries and brain trauma. He has had recurring physical problems since, including blood clots in his legs and lungs. Although police helicopters and cameras overhead captured the event on videotape, the two blacks were acquitted by a predominantly black jury. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

New Orleans, LA - A 28-year-old White man was attacked a few blocks from his home in Algiers Point on the day of Marti Gras by approximately 12 black teen-agers. The victim was attacked as he was exiting his vehicle. When the victims wife went outside to find the source of all the noise, she witnessed her husband being dragged across the street as the teens kicked and beat him with a steel garbage can lid. The victim suffered a broken jaw and other serious facial injures that required reconstruction. Police are treating this as a hate crime, which still remains unsolved.

Cleveland, OH - A five year old White girl, Devon Duniver, was stabbed to death by a black teenager who said after the murder, She got what she deserved. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Kansas City, MO - A six year old White child, Jake Robel, is dragged to death by a black carjacker who drove away even as the boy being dragged screamed outside of the car door while still partially attached to the seat belt. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Buffalo, NY - A White man, Gary Traska, is stomped to death by three blacks. Many of his organs were actually split apart from the savage beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Fayetteville, NC - A White male, Donald Lange, is stomped by ten black males. Lange is now brain dead and a complete vegetable. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Bloomington, IL - A White female, Patricia Stansfield is dragged two miles to her death during a carjacking by a black male. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Reno, NV - A Polynesian immigrant kills a White police officer, George Sullivan, with a hatchet. Sullivan is struck 20 times. The immigrant admits to killing Sullivan because he was a White police officer. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Boulder, CO - A White female college student, is gang-raped at gun-point by six Asians. Because of court proceedings and fear of retaliation by the Asian Crips, she is referred to as Jane Doe. The Asians admit to raping the girl because she was blonde and White. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, SD- A White man is dragged to his death by Indians. Federal officials hesitate to call it a hate crime. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Philadelphia, PA - 16 year-old White youth Eddie Polec was beaten to death on the front steps of his own church by a roving mob of blacks who had chased and assaulted him and other White kids. This crime drew worldwide headlines due to the fact that dozens of frantic calls for help to (black) 911 operators went unanswered. Eddie bled to death in his girlfriends arms. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Fairfax, VA - A group of about 11 people attacked a White teen-age girl while yelling anti-American and anti-White slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Annapolis, MD - A black teenager taunted a White woman and her daughter with a racial slur and punched them in the head.

Ft. Pierce, FL - A black teen was arrested and charged with aggravated battery with evidence of prejudice for beating a white student in a racially motivated incident.

Barstow, FL - Tavares Wright, 20, and Brandan Gatlin, 21, who are black, were charged with attempted second-degree murder and aggravated battery by a jail detainee for beating a White fellow inmate. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

Jacksonville, FL - Two black men, Terrance McCray, 19, and Ledel Lawrence, 21, were convicted of murder in the beating death of a White man.  This incident was not investigated as a hate crime.


----------



## KittenKoder

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> One got the punishment with a possibility of parole, one did not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to prove this comment.
> 
> You've brought your opinions you've spouted out of your ass, I've at least tried to support my arguments with evidence.
> 
> Pwned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Try Wiki, dumbshit.  If you knew how to read, I wouldn't need to present you with the facts, repeatedly.
Click to expand...


Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...



Let's go edit it right now and really fuck with his head.


----------



## KittenKoder

catzmeow said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's go edit it right now and really fuck with his head.
Click to expand...


ROFLMAO!!!! I need to spread rep, that was great!

This wiki crowd is like the "I saw it on TV, it must be true" crowd.


----------



## catzmeow

KittenKoder said:


> This wiki crowd is like the "I saw it on TV, it must be true" crowd.



The wiki crowd is identical to the Cassie Bernall fan club.


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

I had a White fellow murdered by Hispanics in font of my house. He was outnumbered, and the only crime he committed was offending these people by defending a Hispanic gal they were harassing. The person that committed the murder is out now, fat and sassy. That murder fell under the radar, and no political action groups came to protest and whine and moan. Because the victim was a nobody and was white.  It's a terrible thing that happened, but the minority community tends to be hypersensitive and overreacts to EXACTLY the same type of crime when the perpetrator is Anglo and the victim is a minority. I think minority activists are searching for a way to punish Caucasians for past  racial injustice. So, instead of calling them hate crimes,  perhaps they are vengeance by legislation?


----------



## catzmeow

It happens more than you'd think.  

Deseret News | Mom relives pain of son&#039;s violent death


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Denver, CO - A White female teenager, Brandy DuvaI, is raped, sodomized, tortured with a broomstick and stabbed 28 times by a gang of six blacks and Hispanics. Her skull is caved in and corpse dumped into a ditch. Police confiscate a blood soaked mattress as evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Killeen, TX - A White couple, Todd and Stacy Bagley are kidnapped on the way to church, lit on fire, burned to death and shot in the head by four blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Flint, MI - Three White teenagers, Michael Carter, Dustin Kaiser and (girls name withheld by police) are attacked by six black youths. Carter is shot and killed. Kaiser is beaten and shot in the head, but recovers. The girl is forced to perform oral sex on her black attackers, pistol whipped and shot in the face. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> South Carolina - A White female, Melissa McLaughlin, is raped, tortured and skinned alive in a tub of bleach by seven blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Racine, WI - A black gang member, Nazeer Ghani, fires into a crowd of White concert-goers while shouting racial epithets, killing father of two, Joe Rowan. Although identified by 30 witnesses, police release the killer for lack of evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Jacksonville, FL - A mentally retarded White man, Gregory Griffith, is beaten and stomped unconscious by blacks. The blacks admitted to the police that they beat Griffith because he was White. The group allegedly had planned to attack the first White man who walked down the street. A witness testified that he saw fists flying and a White man backing out of a crowd, swinging and ducking before falling to the ground and being kicked in the midriff and head. Griffith died 13 days later from blunt head trauma.
> 
> Kansas City, MO - A black male shoots two White co-workers, Michael Scott and Traci Riehle. Scott is killed and Riehle is critically injured. Police find a note referring to blood sucker supreme White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Alexandria, VA - An eight year old White child, Kevin Shifflet, is killed when his throat is slit by a black who also stabs his 80 year old great grandmother and punches her in the chest. Police find a rambling, handwritten note stating. Kill them raceess whiate kidds anyway. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Burlington, NC - A 10 year old White child, Tiffany Long, is raped, sodomized, sexually tortured and murdered by two black males and a black female. The black female rams a broomstick up her vagina and rectum. The parents were prohibited from seeing their dead daughters body. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fayetteville, NC - Two white women, Tracy Lambert and Susan Moore, are carjacked by a group of seven blacks and Hispanics and shot execution style in the head. This murder was part of a gang initiation. The bullets found in the victims heads were painted blue, the Crips gang color. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Miami, FL - Seven Whites are murdered by the Yahweh Cult whose leader orders the members to cut off and return the ears of the victims as proof of the murders. The trial was conducted at the same time as the Rodney King trial! This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Cincinnati, OH - Bricks were thrown by black rioters through car windows at the heads of any White drivers unfortunate enough to be in the area. A White woman was dragged from her car and brutally beaten by a black mob. An albino African American woman suffered a similar fate until a voice called out, she is black. At which point the beating stopped. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Charleston, SC - Troy Knapp and his friend, Gary Thornburg were riding their bicycles when they happened onto a group of black men. This mob attacked the two White men, knocking Gary unconscious and beating Troy with various objects including pipes. A large portion of Knapps skull had to be removed to allow for swelling in his brain. A damaged portion of his brain had to be surgically removed. He is seriously and permanently injured, and will never recover from the injuries of this beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Wilkinsburg, PA - A black man, Ronald Taylor shot five Whites, killing three. A black acquaintance stated that Taylor had said, Im gonna kill all White people. Prior to the attack, he told a black woman that he wouldnt hurt her because he was out to get all White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Wichita, KS - Two black men broke in to a house and attacked five young Whites, all in their twenties, threatening them with guns. After driving their victims to an ATM and ordering them to withdraw money, the kidnappers took them to a deserted soccer field. There they raped the two White women in front of the men, including the fiancé of one of the young men. Finally they ordered the five White victims to kneel and shot them all execution style. Only one of the young women was not killed. She walked more than a mile, naked and bleeding through the snow until she found help. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Seattle, WA - Mardi Gras or Fat Tuesday celebrations in that city were disrupted when gangs of black men roamed the crowd of thousands attacking White men and women, killing one and injuring 72. They were heard yelling racial epithets during their attacks. Killed was Kris Kime, beaten to death with a 40 ounce beer bottle after coming to the aid of a White woman he didnt know who was being attacked by the black mob. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Charlottesville, VA  Police arrested 9 black men for a series of vicious gang assaults against White students in that college town. Of the nine arrested, one was an adult and the rest juveniles, one a local high school football star. Even though some of the blacks told cops that they intentionally chose their victims based on their race, authorities have declined to classify the attacks as racially motivated. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Salina, KS - A White man, Michael Streeter, 21, was kidnapped by three black men while pumping gas into his SUV. After being driven to a remote location, Streeter had an ear and multiple fingers hacked off, an eye gouged out, then was repeatedly run over with his own SUV, breaking his ribs and puncturing his lungs. The vehicle was found abandoned and on fire a short distance from the attack. The same blacks are suspects in the car-jacking of Postal employee Kyle James, 43, eight days earlier, during which the blacks used racial slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Annapolis, MD - Three black teen-agers were charged with armed robbery in the attack of a White woman, Tracy VanDagna, 22, which left her in need of plastic surgery. One of the alleged perpetrators, Tacarra Tyler, 17, was charged as an adult. VanDagna was walking to her car when a black man struck her in the face with a rock, knocking her to the ground, then grabbed her hair and pulled her head back while a boy ran up and repeatedly kicked her in the face. The victim suffered a broken nose and needed five stitches on her hand. Police said that even after VanDagna turned over her backpack, the teen-agers continued to attack her. One witness told investigators that the assailants said they beat up Whites because they dont like them. This was investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> St. Lucie, FL - Three black males in a racially motivated attack beat a White female high school student. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Delray Beach, FL - Crystal Monique Thomas, 19, and Crystal Antoinette Adams, 20, were charged with battery for yelling racial slurs at a White woman. Thomas was also charged with a hate crime for slapping the woman and calling her a stupid White bitch.
> 
> Tampa, FL - Two black youths, Telly S. Warren, 14, and James Taylor, 17, were charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon for throwing a deadly missile into a vehicle occupied by White passengers.
> 
> San Francisco, CA - Lavonne Adams, 42, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and felony assault for kicking a White woman using a walker who fell, broke her hip and later died.
> 
> Seattle, WA - Police asked prosecutors to consider hate crimes charges against a black teen who is accused of beating up and robbing Whites during Mardi Gras. The perpetrator allegedly told police he believed he was in the middle of a racial war.
> 
> San Bernardino, CA - Catzrina Tatum, a 25-year-old black woman, was charged with suspicion of a hate crime for assaulting a White woman because of the womans ethnicity.
> 
> Bowie, MD - Three black high school girls were charged with second-degree assault for attacking and verbally abusing a White male student. The three girls, one of whom was overheard saying she hated White people and that she and her friend would pick on a different White person each day  pushed the boy to the ground. The boy suffered a contusion to the head, a bloody nose and scrapes and bruises.
> 
> Geneva, IL - A 32-year-old black man was charged with aggravated assault after he threatened to kill White police officers and their families.
> 
> Minneapolis, MN - During a blizzard a car full of black gang members becomes stuck in the snow behind that of a White family. When the family got out of the car to help, they were beaten with baseball bats, with their 10 year old son going into a coma. The media reported that police were looking for a blue car full of men without mentioning the race of the attackers. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Springfield, TN - Two black teenagers murdered
> 
> a White man who had displayed a Confederate flag on his pickup truck. According to testimony, on Jan. 14, 1995, the two black teenagers were cruising the highway when they spotted Michael Westerman, 19, and his wife Hannah, 21. Angered by the flag, the teenagers rounded up two other cars and followed Mr. Westerman and his wife. Boxing Westermans vehicle in with one car, the black youths pulled along side and shot Mr. Westerman to death. The two teenagers were found guilty of murder and attempted aggravated kidnapping. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fall River, IL - Four black men, Damien Gouse, 20, Terry Lewis, 17, William Wheeler, 22, and John Baker, 19, were charged with attempted murder for shooting a White teenager.-This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Edwardsville, IL - A black man, Taiwan Davis, 17, was convicted of first-degree murder for his participation in the mob-style beating death in August of a White man. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Alton, IL - A White male, Richard Skelton, is attacked and stomped to death by a group of 25 blacks while black onlookers yell, Kill the cracker. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Los Angeles, CA - Race riots erupt throughout the city resulting in 53 deaths, 10,000 arrests, 2,300 injuries, more than 1,000 buildings lost to fire, thousands of jobs lost and an estimated cost to the city of $1 billion in damages. The riots lasted several days, during which time, Reginald Denny, a White truck driver, was pulled from his truck by Damian Monroe Williams and Henry Keith Watson, who began beating and kicking him unmercifully. When he was dazed and helpless, Watson pinned him down with a foot on his neck while Williams threw a brick at his head, disfiguring and nearly killing him. Then Williams did a little victory dance. Denny, a man his attackers didnt even know, was hospitalized for 16 days for multiple physical injuries and brain trauma. He has had recurring physical problems since, including blood clots in his legs and lungs. Although police helicopters and cameras overhead captured the event on videotape, the two blacks were acquitted by a predominantly black jury. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> New Orleans, LA - A 28-year-old White man was attacked a few blocks from his home in Algiers Point on the day of Marti Gras by approximately 12 black teen-agers. The victim was attacked as he was exiting his vehicle. When the victims wife went outside to find the source of all the noise, she witnessed her husband being dragged across the street as the teens kicked and beat him with a steel garbage can lid. The victim suffered a broken jaw and other serious facial injures that required reconstruction. Police are treating this as a hate crime, which still remains unsolved.
> 
> Cleveland, OH - A five year old White girl, Devon Duniver, was stabbed to death by a black teenager who said after the murder, She got what she deserved. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Kansas City, MO - A six year old White child, Jake Robel, is dragged to death by a black carjacker who drove away even as the boy being dragged screamed outside of the car door while still partially attached to the seat belt. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Buffalo, NY - A White man, Gary Traska, is stomped to death by three blacks. Many of his organs were actually split apart from the savage beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fayetteville, NC - A White male, Donald Lange, is stomped by ten black males. Lange is now brain dead and a complete vegetable. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Bloomington, IL - A White female, Patricia Stansfield is dragged two miles to her death during a carjacking by a black male. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Reno, NV - A Polynesian immigrant kills a White police officer, George Sullivan, with a hatchet. Sullivan is struck 20 times. The immigrant admits to killing Sullivan because he was a White police officer. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Boulder, CO - A White female college student, is gang-raped at gun-point by six Asians. Because of court proceedings and fear of retaliation by the Asian Crips, she is referred to as Jane Doe. The Asians admit to raping the girl because she was blonde and White. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, SD- A White man is dragged to his death by Indians. Federal officials hesitate to call it a hate crime. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Philadelphia, PA - 16 year-old White youth Eddie Polec was beaten to death on the front steps of his own church by a roving mob of blacks who had chased and assaulted him and other White kids. This crime drew worldwide headlines due to the fact that dozens of frantic calls for help to (black) 911 operators went unanswered. Eddie bled to death in his girlfriends arms. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fairfax, VA - A group of about 11 people attacked a White teen-age girl while yelling anti-American and anti-White slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Annapolis, MD - A black teenager taunted a White woman and her daughter with a racial slur and punched them in the head.
> 
> Ft. Pierce, FL - A black teen was arrested and charged with aggravated battery with evidence of prejudice for beating a white student in a racially motivated incident.
> 
> Barstow, FL - Tavares Wright, 20, and Brandan Gatlin, 21, who are black, were charged with attempted second-degree murder and aggravated battery by a jail detainee for beating a White fellow inmate. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Jacksonville, FL - Two black men, Terrance McCray, 19, and Ledel Lawrence, 21, were convicted of murder in the beating death of a White man.  This incident was not investigated as a hate crime.



Instead of a mass posting from a white supremacist site, how bout you do some research and find me one that was racially motivated?


----------



## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to prove this comment.
> 
> You've brought your opinions you've spouted out of your ass, I've at least tried to support my arguments with evidence.
> 
> Pwned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try Wiki, dumbshit.  If you knew how to read, I wouldn't need to present you with the facts, repeatedly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...
Click to expand...


It is, actually.  Wiki has been found to be more accurate than most encylopedias.  It has flaws, as does everything, but for whatever reason people think wiki "omg, it must be false!", but trust the links when people cite to shit like wnd.

Feel free to peruse the Shephard case on Wiki.  Lots and lots of links to sources there if theres something you want to check up on.


----------



## KittenKoder

Nik said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try Wiki, dumbshit.  If you knew how to read, I wouldn't need to present you with the facts, repeatedly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is, actually.  Wiki has been found to be more accurate than most encylopedias.  It has flaws, as does everything, but for whatever reason people think wiki "omg, it must be false!", but trust the links when people cite to shit like wnd.
> 
> Feel free to peruse the Shephard case on Wiki.  Lots and lots of links to sources there if theres something you want to check up on.
Click to expand...


LOL ... oh sure ... where biased people can post their version of the facts which are verified by biased moderators ... who heavy handedly determine what makes the "cut" without regard to any real proof. Sure ... there's no way they would ever have inaccuracies. Make some more Koolaide.


----------



## KittenKoder

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Denver, CO - A White female teenager, Brandy DuvaI, is raped, sodomized, tortured with a broomstick and stabbed 28 times by a gang of six blacks and Hispanics. Her skull is caved in and corpse dumped into a ditch. Police confiscate a blood soaked mattress as evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Killeen, TX - A White couple, Todd and Stacy Bagley are kidnapped on the way to church, lit on fire, burned to death and shot in the head by four blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Flint, MI - Three White teenagers, Michael Carter, Dustin Kaiser and (girls name withheld by police) are attacked by six black youths. Carter is shot and killed. Kaiser is beaten and shot in the head, but recovers. The girl is forced to perform oral sex on her black attackers, pistol whipped and shot in the face. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> South Carolina - A White female, Melissa McLaughlin, is raped, tortured and skinned alive in a tub of bleach by seven blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Racine, WI - A black gang member, Nazeer Ghani, fires into a crowd of White concert-goers while shouting racial epithets, killing father of two, Joe Rowan. Although identified by 30 witnesses, police release the killer for lack of evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Jacksonville, FL - A mentally retarded White man, Gregory Griffith, is beaten and stomped unconscious by blacks. The blacks admitted to the police that they beat Griffith because he was White. The group allegedly had planned to attack the first White man who walked down the street. A witness testified that he saw fists flying and a White man backing out of a crowd, swinging and ducking before falling to the ground and being kicked in the midriff and head. Griffith died 13 days later from blunt head trauma.
> 
> Kansas City, MO - A black male shoots two White co-workers, Michael Scott and Traci Riehle. Scott is killed and Riehle is critically injured. Police find a note referring to blood sucker supreme White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Alexandria, VA - An eight year old White child, Kevin Shifflet, is killed when his throat is slit by a black who also stabs his 80 year old great grandmother and punches her in the chest. Police find a rambling, handwritten note stating. Kill them raceess whiate kidds anyway. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Burlington, NC - A 10 year old White child, Tiffany Long, is raped, sodomized, sexually tortured and murdered by two black males and a black female. The black female rams a broomstick up her vagina and rectum. The parents were prohibited from seeing their dead daughters body. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fayetteville, NC - Two white women, Tracy Lambert and Susan Moore, are carjacked by a group of seven blacks and Hispanics and shot execution style in the head. This murder was part of a gang initiation. The bullets found in the victims heads were painted blue, the Crips gang color. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Miami, FL - Seven Whites are murdered by the Yahweh Cult whose leader orders the members to cut off and return the ears of the victims as proof of the murders. The trial was conducted at the same time as the Rodney King trial! This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Cincinnati, OH - Bricks were thrown by black rioters through car windows at the heads of any White drivers unfortunate enough to be in the area. A White woman was dragged from her car and brutally beaten by a black mob. An albino African American woman suffered a similar fate until a voice called out, she is black. At which point the beating stopped. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Charleston, SC - Troy Knapp and his friend, Gary Thornburg were riding their bicycles when they happened onto a group of black men. This mob attacked the two White men, knocking Gary unconscious and beating Troy with various objects including pipes. A large portion of Knapps skull had to be removed to allow for swelling in his brain. A damaged portion of his brain had to be surgically removed. He is seriously and permanently injured, and will never recover from the injuries of this beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Wilkinsburg, PA - A black man, Ronald Taylor shot five Whites, killing three. A black acquaintance stated that Taylor had said, Im gonna kill all White people. Prior to the attack, he told a black woman that he wouldnt hurt her because he was out to get all White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Wichita, KS - Two black men broke in to a house and attacked five young Whites, all in their twenties, threatening them with guns. After driving their victims to an ATM and ordering them to withdraw money, the kidnappers took them to a deserted soccer field. There they raped the two White women in front of the men, including the fiancé of one of the young men. Finally they ordered the five White victims to kneel and shot them all execution style. Only one of the young women was not killed. She walked more than a mile, naked and bleeding through the snow until she found help. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Seattle, WA - Mardi Gras or Fat Tuesday celebrations in that city were disrupted when gangs of black men roamed the crowd of thousands attacking White men and women, killing one and injuring 72. They were heard yelling racial epithets during their attacks. Killed was Kris Kime, beaten to death with a 40 ounce beer bottle after coming to the aid of a White woman he didnt know who was being attacked by the black mob. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Charlottesville, VA  Police arrested 9 black men for a series of vicious gang assaults against White students in that college town. Of the nine arrested, one was an adult and the rest juveniles, one a local high school football star. Even though some of the blacks told cops that they intentionally chose their victims based on their race, authorities have declined to classify the attacks as racially motivated. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Salina, KS - A White man, Michael Streeter, 21, was kidnapped by three black men while pumping gas into his SUV. After being driven to a remote location, Streeter had an ear and multiple fingers hacked off, an eye gouged out, then was repeatedly run over with his own SUV, breaking his ribs and puncturing his lungs. The vehicle was found abandoned and on fire a short distance from the attack. The same blacks are suspects in the car-jacking of Postal employee Kyle James, 43, eight days earlier, during which the blacks used racial slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Annapolis, MD - Three black teen-agers were charged with armed robbery in the attack of a White woman, Tracy VanDagna, 22, which left her in need of plastic surgery. One of the alleged perpetrators, Tacarra Tyler, 17, was charged as an adult. VanDagna was walking to her car when a black man struck her in the face with a rock, knocking her to the ground, then grabbed her hair and pulled her head back while a boy ran up and repeatedly kicked her in the face. The victim suffered a broken nose and needed five stitches on her hand. Police said that even after VanDagna turned over her backpack, the teen-agers continued to attack her. One witness told investigators that the assailants said they beat up Whites because they dont like them. This was investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> St. Lucie, FL - Three black males in a racially motivated attack beat a White female high school student. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Delray Beach, FL - Crystal Monique Thomas, 19, and Crystal Antoinette Adams, 20, were charged with battery for yelling racial slurs at a White woman. Thomas was also charged with a hate crime for slapping the woman and calling her a stupid White bitch.
> 
> Tampa, FL - Two black youths, Telly S. Warren, 14, and James Taylor, 17, were charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon for throwing a deadly missile into a vehicle occupied by White passengers.
> 
> San Francisco, CA - Lavonne Adams, 42, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and felony assault for kicking a White woman using a walker who fell, broke her hip and later died.
> 
> Seattle, WA - Police asked prosecutors to consider hate crimes charges against a black teen who is accused of beating up and robbing Whites during Mardi Gras. The perpetrator allegedly told police he believed he was in the middle of a racial war.
> 
> San Bernardino, CA - Catzrina Tatum, a 25-year-old black woman, was charged with suspicion of a hate crime for assaulting a White woman because of the womans ethnicity.
> 
> Bowie, MD - Three black high school girls were charged with second-degree assault for attacking and verbally abusing a White male student. The three girls, one of whom was overheard saying she hated White people and that she and her friend would pick on a different White person each day  pushed the boy to the ground. The boy suffered a contusion to the head, a bloody nose and scrapes and bruises.
> 
> Geneva, IL - A 32-year-old black man was charged with aggravated assault after he threatened to kill White police officers and their families.
> 
> Minneapolis, MN - During a blizzard a car full of black gang members becomes stuck in the snow behind that of a White family. When the family got out of the car to help, they were beaten with baseball bats, with their 10 year old son going into a coma. The media reported that police were looking for a blue car full of men without mentioning the race of the attackers. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Springfield, TN - Two black teenagers murdered
> 
> a White man who had displayed a Confederate flag on his pickup truck. According to testimony, on Jan. 14, 1995, the two black teenagers were cruising the highway when they spotted Michael Westerman, 19, and his wife Hannah, 21. Angered by the flag, the teenagers rounded up two other cars and followed Mr. Westerman and his wife. Boxing Westermans vehicle in with one car, the black youths pulled along side and shot Mr. Westerman to death. The two teenagers were found guilty of murder and attempted aggravated kidnapping. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fall River, IL - Four black men, Damien Gouse, 20, Terry Lewis, 17, William Wheeler, 22, and John Baker, 19, were charged with attempted murder for shooting a White teenager.-This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Edwardsville, IL - A black man, Taiwan Davis, 17, was convicted of first-degree murder for his participation in the mob-style beating death in August of a White man. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Alton, IL - A White male, Richard Skelton, is attacked and stomped to death by a group of 25 blacks while black onlookers yell, Kill the cracker. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Los Angeles, CA - Race riots erupt throughout the city resulting in 53 deaths, 10,000 arrests, 2,300 injuries, more than 1,000 buildings lost to fire, thousands of jobs lost and an estimated cost to the city of $1 billion in damages. The riots lasted several days, during which time, Reginald Denny, a White truck driver, was pulled from his truck by Damian Monroe Williams and Henry Keith Watson, who began beating and kicking him unmercifully. When he was dazed and helpless, Watson pinned him down with a foot on his neck while Williams threw a brick at his head, disfiguring and nearly killing him. Then Williams did a little victory dance. Denny, a man his attackers didnt even know, was hospitalized for 16 days for multiple physical injuries and brain trauma. He has had recurring physical problems since, including blood clots in his legs and lungs. Although police helicopters and cameras overhead captured the event on videotape, the two blacks were acquitted by a predominantly black jury. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> New Orleans, LA - A 28-year-old White man was attacked a few blocks from his home in Algiers Point on the day of Marti Gras by approximately 12 black teen-agers. The victim was attacked as he was exiting his vehicle. When the victims wife went outside to find the source of all the noise, she witnessed her husband being dragged across the street as the teens kicked and beat him with a steel garbage can lid. The victim suffered a broken jaw and other serious facial injures that required reconstruction. Police are treating this as a hate crime, which still remains unsolved.
> 
> Cleveland, OH - A five year old White girl, Devon Duniver, was stabbed to death by a black teenager who said after the murder, She got what she deserved. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Kansas City, MO - A six year old White child, Jake Robel, is dragged to death by a black carjacker who drove away even as the boy being dragged screamed outside of the car door while still partially attached to the seat belt. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Buffalo, NY - A White man, Gary Traska, is stomped to death by three blacks. Many of his organs were actually split apart from the savage beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fayetteville, NC - A White male, Donald Lange, is stomped by ten black males. Lange is now brain dead and a complete vegetable. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Bloomington, IL - A White female, Patricia Stansfield is dragged two miles to her death during a carjacking by a black male. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Reno, NV - A Polynesian immigrant kills a White police officer, George Sullivan, with a hatchet. Sullivan is struck 20 times. The immigrant admits to killing Sullivan because he was a White police officer. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Boulder, CO - A White female college student, is gang-raped at gun-point by six Asians. Because of court proceedings and fear of retaliation by the Asian Crips, she is referred to as Jane Doe. The Asians admit to raping the girl because she was blonde and White. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, SD- A White man is dragged to his death by Indians. Federal officials hesitate to call it a hate crime. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Philadelphia, PA - 16 year-old White youth Eddie Polec was beaten to death on the front steps of his own church by a roving mob of blacks who had chased and assaulted him and other White kids. This crime drew worldwide headlines due to the fact that dozens of frantic calls for help to (black) 911 operators went unanswered. Eddie bled to death in his girlfriends arms. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fairfax, VA - A group of about 11 people attacked a White teen-age girl while yelling anti-American and anti-White slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Annapolis, MD - A black teenager taunted a White woman and her daughter with a racial slur and punched them in the head.
> 
> Ft. Pierce, FL - A black teen was arrested and charged with aggravated battery with evidence of prejudice for beating a white student in a racially motivated incident.
> 
> Barstow, FL - Tavares Wright, 20, and Brandan Gatlin, 21, who are black, were charged with attempted second-degree murder and aggravated battery by a jail detainee for beating a White fellow inmate. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Jacksonville, FL - Two black men, Terrance McCray, 19, and Ledel Lawrence, 21, were convicted of murder in the beating death of a White man.  This incident was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of a mass posting from a white supremacist site, how bout you do some research and find me one that was racially motivated?
Click to expand...


If you don't want to take all those as fact, look up Seattle - Mardis Gras - 2001

Here's a start: Seattle Post-Intelligencer: Violence at Mardi Gras


----------



## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is, actually.  Wiki has been found to be more accurate than most encylopedias.  It has flaws, as does everything, but for whatever reason people think wiki "omg, it must be false!", but trust the links when people cite to shit like wnd.
> 
> Feel free to peruse the Shephard case on Wiki.  Lots and lots of links to sources there if theres something you want to check up on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL ... oh sure ... where biased people can post their version of the facts which are verified by biased moderators ... who heavy handedly determine what makes the "cut" without regard to any real proof. Sure ... there's no way they would ever have inaccuracies. Make some more Koolaide.
Click to expand...


Excuse me, did I say they never have inaccuracies?  Of course they do, as do all sites.  And everyone is written with some kind of bias.  But the things that are verified on wikipedia aren't the facts themselves, the generally sources.  

If you are so distrusting of wikipedia, tell me where you get your facts from?


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

You know what source I  find more accurate? Life, like in reality. You should try it, it's  great. And it holds some surprises. Like, people do stupid and evil things given the chance. Skin color isn't exactly the determining factor. Hate crime  amounts to something like ...cooties. Childish name calling foolishness. It dosen't mean anything at all.


----------



## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Denver, CO - A White female teenager, Brandy DuvaI, is raped, sodomized, tortured with a broomstick and stabbed 28 times by a gang of six blacks and Hispanics. Her skull is caved in and corpse dumped into a ditch. Police confiscate a blood soaked mattress as evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Killeen, TX - A White couple, Todd and Stacy Bagley are kidnapped on the way to church, lit on fire, burned to death and shot in the head by four blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Flint, MI - Three White teenagers, Michael Carter, Dustin Kaiser and (girls name withheld by police) are attacked by six black youths. Carter is shot and killed. Kaiser is beaten and shot in the head, but recovers. The girl is forced to perform oral sex on her black attackers, pistol whipped and shot in the face. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> South Carolina - A White female, Melissa McLaughlin, is raped, tortured and skinned alive in a tub of bleach by seven blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Racine, WI - A black gang member, Nazeer Ghani, fires into a crowd of White concert-goers while shouting racial epithets, killing father of two, Joe Rowan. Although identified by 30 witnesses, police release the killer for lack of evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Jacksonville, FL - A mentally retarded White man, Gregory Griffith, is beaten and stomped unconscious by blacks. The blacks admitted to the police that they beat Griffith because he was White. The group allegedly had planned to attack the first White man who walked down the street. A witness testified that he saw fists flying and a White man backing out of a crowd, swinging and ducking before falling to the ground and being kicked in the midriff and head. Griffith died 13 days later from blunt head trauma.
> 
> Kansas City, MO - A black male shoots two White co-workers, Michael Scott and Traci Riehle. Scott is killed and Riehle is critically injured. Police find a note referring to blood sucker supreme White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Alexandria, VA - An eight year old White child, Kevin Shifflet, is killed when his throat is slit by a black who also stabs his 80 year old great grandmother and punches her in the chest. Police find a rambling, handwritten note stating. Kill them raceess whiate kidds anyway. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Burlington, NC - A 10 year old White child, Tiffany Long, is raped, sodomized, sexually tortured and murdered by two black males and a black female. The black female rams a broomstick up her vagina and rectum. The parents were prohibited from seeing their dead daughters body. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fayetteville, NC - Two white women, Tracy Lambert and Susan Moore, are carjacked by a group of seven blacks and Hispanics and shot execution style in the head. This murder was part of a gang initiation. The bullets found in the victims heads were painted blue, the Crips gang color. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Miami, FL - Seven Whites are murdered by the Yahweh Cult whose leader orders the members to cut off and return the ears of the victims as proof of the murders. The trial was conducted at the same time as the Rodney King trial! This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Cincinnati, OH - Bricks were thrown by black rioters through car windows at the heads of any White drivers unfortunate enough to be in the area. A White woman was dragged from her car and brutally beaten by a black mob. An albino African American woman suffered a similar fate until a voice called out, she is black. At which point the beating stopped. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Charleston, SC - Troy Knapp and his friend, Gary Thornburg were riding their bicycles when they happened onto a group of black men. This mob attacked the two White men, knocking Gary unconscious and beating Troy with various objects including pipes. A large portion of Knapps skull had to be removed to allow for swelling in his brain. A damaged portion of his brain had to be surgically removed. He is seriously and permanently injured, and will never recover from the injuries of this beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Wilkinsburg, PA - A black man, Ronald Taylor shot five Whites, killing three. A black acquaintance stated that Taylor had said, Im gonna kill all White people. Prior to the attack, he told a black woman that he wouldnt hurt her because he was out to get all White people. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Wichita, KS - Two black men broke in to a house and attacked five young Whites, all in their twenties, threatening them with guns. After driving their victims to an ATM and ordering them to withdraw money, the kidnappers took them to a deserted soccer field. There they raped the two White women in front of the men, including the fiancé of one of the young men. Finally they ordered the five White victims to kneel and shot them all execution style. Only one of the young women was not killed. She walked more than a mile, naked and bleeding through the snow until she found help. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Seattle, WA - Mardi Gras or Fat Tuesday celebrations in that city were disrupted when gangs of black men roamed the crowd of thousands attacking White men and women, killing one and injuring 72. They were heard yelling racial epithets during their attacks. Killed was Kris Kime, beaten to death with a 40 ounce beer bottle after coming to the aid of a White woman he didnt know who was being attacked by the black mob. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Charlottesville, VA  Police arrested 9 black men for a series of vicious gang assaults against White students in that college town. Of the nine arrested, one was an adult and the rest juveniles, one a local high school football star. Even though some of the blacks told cops that they intentionally chose their victims based on their race, authorities have declined to classify the attacks as racially motivated. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Salina, KS - A White man, Michael Streeter, 21, was kidnapped by three black men while pumping gas into his SUV. After being driven to a remote location, Streeter had an ear and multiple fingers hacked off, an eye gouged out, then was repeatedly run over with his own SUV, breaking his ribs and puncturing his lungs. The vehicle was found abandoned and on fire a short distance from the attack. The same blacks are suspects in the car-jacking of Postal employee Kyle James, 43, eight days earlier, during which the blacks used racial slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Annapolis, MD - Three black teen-agers were charged with armed robbery in the attack of a White woman, Tracy VanDagna, 22, which left her in need of plastic surgery. One of the alleged perpetrators, Tacarra Tyler, 17, was charged as an adult. VanDagna was walking to her car when a black man struck her in the face with a rock, knocking her to the ground, then grabbed her hair and pulled her head back while a boy ran up and repeatedly kicked her in the face. The victim suffered a broken nose and needed five stitches on her hand. Police said that even after VanDagna turned over her backpack, the teen-agers continued to attack her. One witness told investigators that the assailants said they beat up Whites because they dont like them. This was investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> St. Lucie, FL - Three black males in a racially motivated attack beat a White female high school student. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Delray Beach, FL - Crystal Monique Thomas, 19, and Crystal Antoinette Adams, 20, were charged with battery for yelling racial slurs at a White woman. Thomas was also charged with a hate crime for slapping the woman and calling her a stupid White bitch.
> 
> Tampa, FL - Two black youths, Telly S. Warren, 14, and James Taylor, 17, were charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon for throwing a deadly missile into a vehicle occupied by White passengers.
> 
> San Francisco, CA - Lavonne Adams, 42, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and felony assault for kicking a White woman using a walker who fell, broke her hip and later died.
> 
> Seattle, WA - Police asked prosecutors to consider hate crimes charges against a black teen who is accused of beating up and robbing Whites during Mardi Gras. The perpetrator allegedly told police he believed he was in the middle of a racial war.
> 
> San Bernardino, CA - Catzrina Tatum, a 25-year-old black woman, was charged with suspicion of a hate crime for assaulting a White woman because of the womans ethnicity.
> 
> Bowie, MD - Three black high school girls were charged with second-degree assault for attacking and verbally abusing a White male student. The three girls, one of whom was overheard saying she hated White people and that she and her friend would pick on a different White person each day  pushed the boy to the ground. The boy suffered a contusion to the head, a bloody nose and scrapes and bruises.
> 
> Geneva, IL - A 32-year-old black man was charged with aggravated assault after he threatened to kill White police officers and their families.
> 
> Minneapolis, MN - During a blizzard a car full of black gang members becomes stuck in the snow behind that of a White family. When the family got out of the car to help, they were beaten with baseball bats, with their 10 year old son going into a coma. The media reported that police were looking for a blue car full of men without mentioning the race of the attackers. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Springfield, TN - Two black teenagers murdered
> 
> a White man who had displayed a Confederate flag on his pickup truck. According to testimony, on Jan. 14, 1995, the two black teenagers were cruising the highway when they spotted Michael Westerman, 19, and his wife Hannah, 21. Angered by the flag, the teenagers rounded up two other cars and followed Mr. Westerman and his wife. Boxing Westermans vehicle in with one car, the black youths pulled along side and shot Mr. Westerman to death. The two teenagers were found guilty of murder and attempted aggravated kidnapping. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fall River, IL - Four black men, Damien Gouse, 20, Terry Lewis, 17, William Wheeler, 22, and John Baker, 19, were charged with attempted murder for shooting a White teenager.-This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Edwardsville, IL - A black man, Taiwan Davis, 17, was convicted of first-degree murder for his participation in the mob-style beating death in August of a White man. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Alton, IL - A White male, Richard Skelton, is attacked and stomped to death by a group of 25 blacks while black onlookers yell, Kill the cracker. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Los Angeles, CA - Race riots erupt throughout the city resulting in 53 deaths, 10,000 arrests, 2,300 injuries, more than 1,000 buildings lost to fire, thousands of jobs lost and an estimated cost to the city of $1 billion in damages. The riots lasted several days, during which time, Reginald Denny, a White truck driver, was pulled from his truck by Damian Monroe Williams and Henry Keith Watson, who began beating and kicking him unmercifully. When he was dazed and helpless, Watson pinned him down with a foot on his neck while Williams threw a brick at his head, disfiguring and nearly killing him. Then Williams did a little victory dance. Denny, a man his attackers didnt even know, was hospitalized for 16 days for multiple physical injuries and brain trauma. He has had recurring physical problems since, including blood clots in his legs and lungs. Although police helicopters and cameras overhead captured the event on videotape, the two blacks were acquitted by a predominantly black jury. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> New Orleans, LA - A 28-year-old White man was attacked a few blocks from his home in Algiers Point on the day of Marti Gras by approximately 12 black teen-agers. The victim was attacked as he was exiting his vehicle. When the victims wife went outside to find the source of all the noise, she witnessed her husband being dragged across the street as the teens kicked and beat him with a steel garbage can lid. The victim suffered a broken jaw and other serious facial injures that required reconstruction. Police are treating this as a hate crime, which still remains unsolved.
> 
> Cleveland, OH - A five year old White girl, Devon Duniver, was stabbed to death by a black teenager who said after the murder, She got what she deserved. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Kansas City, MO - A six year old White child, Jake Robel, is dragged to death by a black carjacker who drove away even as the boy being dragged screamed outside of the car door while still partially attached to the seat belt. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Buffalo, NY - A White man, Gary Traska, is stomped to death by three blacks. Many of his organs were actually split apart from the savage beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fayetteville, NC - A White male, Donald Lange, is stomped by ten black males. Lange is now brain dead and a complete vegetable. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Bloomington, IL - A White female, Patricia Stansfield is dragged two miles to her death during a carjacking by a black male. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Reno, NV - A Polynesian immigrant kills a White police officer, George Sullivan, with a hatchet. Sullivan is struck 20 times. The immigrant admits to killing Sullivan because he was a White police officer. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Boulder, CO - A White female college student, is gang-raped at gun-point by six Asians. Because of court proceedings and fear of retaliation by the Asian Crips, she is referred to as Jane Doe. The Asians admit to raping the girl because she was blonde and White. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, SD- A White man is dragged to his death by Indians. Federal officials hesitate to call it a hate crime. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Philadelphia, PA - 16 year-old White youth Eddie Polec was beaten to death on the front steps of his own church by a roving mob of blacks who had chased and assaulted him and other White kids. This crime drew worldwide headlines due to the fact that dozens of frantic calls for help to (black) 911 operators went unanswered. Eddie bled to death in his girlfriends arms. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Fairfax, VA - A group of about 11 people attacked a White teen-age girl while yelling anti-American and anti-White slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Annapolis, MD - A black teenager taunted a White woman and her daughter with a racial slur and punched them in the head.
> 
> Ft. Pierce, FL - A black teen was arrested and charged with aggravated battery with evidence of prejudice for beating a white student in a racially motivated incident.
> 
> Barstow, FL - Tavares Wright, 20, and Brandan Gatlin, 21, who are black, were charged with attempted second-degree murder and aggravated battery by a jail detainee for beating a White fellow inmate. This was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> Jacksonville, FL - Two black men, Terrance McCray, 19, and Ledel Lawrence, 21, were convicted of murder in the beating death of a White man.  This incident was not investigated as a hate crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of a mass posting from a white supremacist site, how bout you do some research and find me one that was racially motivated?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you don't want to take all those as fact, look up Seattle - Mardis Gras - 2001
> 
> Here's a start: Seattle Post-Intelligencer: Violence at Mardi Gras
Click to expand...


And what makes you think that was racially motivated exactly?


----------



## Nik

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> You know what source I  find more accurate? Life, like in reality. You should try it, it's  great. And it holds some surprises. Like, people do stupid and evil things given the chance. Skin color isn't exactly the determining factor. Hate crime  amounts to something like ...cooties. Childish name calling foolishness. It dosen't mean anything at all.



That might be your reality, but its not mine.  I lived in Sydney a few years back, and there is a lot of anti-gay stuff around there.  People used to get bashed a lot coming home from the gay district.  That year at their mardi gras (its a gay mardi gras thing), I went and there were signs all over telling you not to go alone, to watch your friends, make sure you knew where people were and shit.  Its a pretty freaky experience.  I've had experiences with crime before too.  Been robbed and such, but its really a different thing to think that they don't want your money, they don't want anything from you, they just want you to feel pain.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Instead of a mass posting from a white supremacist site, how bout you do some research and find me one that was racially motivated?



I checked multiple of the above by searching the names of the victims.  The information was accurate.  Instead of simply dismissing them out of hand, to preserve your paradigms, why don't you do your own research.

Your request was asked and answered. I note that you've not provided a single shred of support for any of your claims.

Dismissed.

You dismiss interviews on ABC's 20/20 and appear to prefer wikipedia.

I think your opinions of "credible sources" are highly suspect.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> That might be your reality, but its not mine.  I lived in Sydney a few years back, and there is a lot of anti-gay stuff around there.  People used to get bashed a lot coming home from the gay district.  That year at their mardi gras (its a gay mardi gras thing), I went and there were signs all over telling you not to go alone, to watch your friends, make sure you knew where people were and shit.  Its a pretty freaky experience.  I've had experiences with crime before too.  Been robbed and such, but its really a different thing to think that they don't want your money, they don't want anything from you, they just want you to feel pain.



C'mon, y'all.  Anonymous internet dude reporting seeing signs at an event trumps 20/20 every single time.


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Hey Nik. I wonder if you have actually seen a minority person in your life. Just kidding. I am sure you have suffered some injustice once or so. Well, do tell? I bet you are a fount of suffering. Where were  you on Mardi Gras 2001?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of a mass posting from a white supremacist site, how bout you do some research and find me one that was racially motivated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I checked multiple of the above by searching the names of the victims.  The information was accurate.  Instead of simply dismissing them out of hand, to preserve your paradigms, why don't you do your own research.
Click to expand...


I did my own research.  Sites that popped up were white supremacist sites.  First two names I looked at showed no evidence they were race related.  Sorry, I'm not going to prove your points for you.  Distill it down a little bit, instead of giving me a laundry list.



> Your request was asked and answered. I note that you've not provided a single shred of support for any of your claims.



And what claims would those be?



> Dismissed.
> 
> You dismiss interviews on ABC's 20/20 and appear to prefer wikipedia.
> 
> I think your opinions of "credible sources" are highly suspect.



Interviews on ABC....who had sworn testimony of other things.  Yes, I'm going to dismiss that.  What, because someone says something on ABC you think its believable?  Man, and you want to attack what I think are credible sources?  You fail.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> That might be your reality, but its not mine.  I lived in Sydney a few years back, and there is a lot of anti-gay stuff around there.  People used to get bashed a lot coming home from the gay district.  That year at their mardi gras (its a gay mardi gras thing), I went and there were signs all over telling you not to go alone, to watch your friends, make sure you knew where people were and shit.  Its a pretty freaky experience.  I've had experiences with crime before too.  Been robbed and such, but its really a different thing to think that they don't want your money, they don't want anything from you, they just want you to feel pain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon, y'all.  Anonymous internet dude reporting seeing signs at an event trumps 20/20 every single time.
Click to expand...


Series of Homophobic Attacks Hits Sydney's Oxford Street - Towleroad, More than gay news. More gay men

Sorry I can't find a more mainstream site.  They don't cover gay bashings that much.  And no, I didn't just see signs at a site.  There were a bunch of bashings in Sydney around that time.


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Someone is a bit sensitive to being inexperienced, well un-lax dude. I don't give a shit, because, this IS the Internet, not the fucking Matrix.


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Hey, Nik, My granny's name was Matilda, as in waltzing. She hated that song. I love her. Blue sky mining? All those Aborigines, you conveniently  forget them?


----------



## KittenKoder

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of a mass posting from a white supremacist site, how bout you do some research and find me one that was racially motivated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I checked multiple of the above by searching the names of the victims.  The information was accurate.  Instead of simply dismissing them out of hand, to preserve your paradigms, why don't you do your own research.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did my own research.  Sites that popped up were white supremacist sites.  First two names I looked at showed no evidence they were race related.  Sorry, I'm not going to prove your points for you.  Distill it down a little bit, instead of giving me a laundry list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your request was asked and answered. I note that you've not provided a single shred of support for any of your claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And what claims would those be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dismissed.
> 
> You dismiss interviews on ABC's 20/20 and appear to prefer wikipedia.
> 
> I think your opinions of "credible sources" are highly suspect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interviews on ABC....who had sworn testimony of other things.  Yes, I'm going to dismiss that.  What, because someone says something on ABC you think its believable?  Man, and you want to attack what I think are credible sources?  You fail.
Click to expand...


The sites that pop up when you Google just shows more of what you normally view ... very telling really.


----------



## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I checked multiple of the above by searching the names of the victims.  The information was accurate.  Instead of simply dismissing them out of hand, to preserve your paradigms, why don't you do your own research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did my own research.  Sites that popped up were white supremacist sites.  First two names I looked at showed no evidence they were race related.  Sorry, I'm not going to prove your points for you.  Distill it down a little bit, instead of giving me a laundry list.
> 
> 
> 
> And what claims would those be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dismissed.
> 
> You dismiss interviews on ABC's 20/20 and appear to prefer wikipedia.
> 
> I think your opinions of "credible sources" are highly suspect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interviews on ABC....who had sworn testimony of other things.  Yes, I'm going to dismiss that.  What, because someone says something on ABC you think its believable?  Man, and you want to attack what I think are credible sources?  You fail.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The sites that pop up when you Google just shows more of what you normally view ... very telling really.
Click to expand...


Umm, no.  Thats not how google works.  Get a clue.


----------



## JBeukema

KittenKoder said:


> Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...


Pro) A study be Nature magazine support the accuracy of Wikipedia 
Con)allegations of dishonesty

Encyclopedia Brittanica attacks (PDF)

Nature responds on a point-by-point basis

read and decide for yourselves. now. stop bickering, children


the original article at Nature's site has been replaced with links to the above. If anyone finds a mirror, please post it


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ... now there's a fact filled source ... yeah ...
> 
> 
> 
> Pro) A study be Nature magazine support the accuracy of Wikipedia
> Con)allegations of dishonesty
> 
> Encyclopedia Brittanica attacks (PDF)
> 
> Nature responds on a point-by-point basis
> 
> read and decide for yourselves. now. stop bickering, children
> 
> 
> the original article at Nature's site has been replaced with links to the above. If anyone finds a mirror, please post it
Click to expand...


Haha.  Britannica thinks Wikipedia is flawed?  Gee, I wonder why.


----------



## Sky Dancer

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> You know what source I  find more accurate? Life, like in reality. You should try it, it's  great. And it holds some surprises. Like, people do stupid and evil things given the chance. Skin color isn't exactly the determining factor. Hate crime  amounts to something like ...cooties. Childish name calling foolishness. It dosen't mean anything at all.



Hate crime amounts to something like the murder of Mulageta Seraw by skinheads and the murder of Matthew Shepard.  Since you seem to have no idea what a hate crme is I'll offer another example:

1986. _Three black youths were driving through the predominately white suburb of Queens, New York known as Howard Beach. Their car was broken down and another car with some white youths in it drove past them and they shouted racial slurs at them and told them to get out of the neighborhood. The black youths were lost and hungry and decided to go to a pizza parlor to get a bite to eat. When they left the restaurant, they saw a group of ten white youths standing outside wielding baseball bats. The white youths chased the black youths and one of them was struck by a car as he ran into Shore Parkway and was killed. One of the black youths was able to hide and another escaped a beating by climbing through a hole in the fence. Three of the boys were convicted of second degree manslaughter and first-degree assault but were acquitted of the second degree murder charges. A fourth youth was acquitted of all charges. One of the youths was sentenced to ten to thirty years in prison. Another was given five to fifteen years and the third was sentenced to six to eighteen years in prison.

Hate crimes are considered some of the most heinous of crimes because they target a specific group of people and are usually very brutal. _
http://www.bellaonline.com/ArticlesP/art39644.asp
We aren't talking childish name calling or cooties here.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Here's more recent case:

Pennsylvania Teenagers Acquitted of Hate Crime; Federal Law Needed
May 5, 2009 - Posted by Corrine Yu

On Friday, a jury acquitted two teenagers of serious charges, including ethnic intimidation, in the fatal beating of Luiz Ramirez, a 25 year-old Mexican immigrant, in Shenandoah, Pa., last July.

Police say that the teenagers used ethnic slurs as they repeatedly punched Ramirez, knocked him to the ground, and then kicked him several times in the head. Ramirez died of his injuries two days later.

Hate crimes against Latinos have been increasing since 2003, according to FBI data. Civil rights groups said that this increase correlates closely to the increasingly heated debate over immigration reform and a rise of anti-immigrant rhetoric on radio, television, and the Internet.

Last week, the House of Representatives passed the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crime Prevention Act, which will provide local authorities with more resources to combat hate crimes and give federal government jurisdiction over prosecuting hate crimes in states where the current law is inadequate.

"[T] his verdict underscores the importance of the passage of this Act," said Henry Solano, MALDEF interim president and general counsel. "It is time for the Department of Justice to step in and bring justice to the Ramirez family and send a strong message that violence targeting immigrants will not be tolerated and will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law."

The Justice Department is currently investigating whether to prosecute the two teenagers under federal civil rights statutes.



Hate Crimes & LLEHCPA - Leadership Conference on Civil Rights


----------



## Mr. President

If the person killed was an illegal alien then Mexico should be pressing charges not America.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

I would think anytime someone beats the shit out of someone or murders someone, they probably hate the person their victimizing. In other words all violent crime is motivated by hatred, so why the need for the distinction?


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> If the person killed was an illegal alien then Mexico should be pressing charges not America.



Mexico has no jurisdiction on American soil.  Why do you want to give control over prosecuting Americans who commit crimes on American soil to the Mexicans?  You globalist you.


----------



## Nik

Lonestar_logic said:


> I would think anytime someone beats the shit out of someone or murders someone, they probably hate the person their victimizing. In other words all violent crime is motivated by hatred, so why the need for the distinction?



Right, because nobody ever gets murdered for money


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Nik said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think anytime someone beats the shit out of someone or murders someone, they probably hate the person their victimizing. In other words all violent crime is motivated by hatred, so why the need for the distinction?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, because nobody ever gets murdered for money
Click to expand...


What like a hit man or killing someone in the act of robbing them? I can almost guarantee the emotions the perpetrator has would be anything but love.


----------



## Mr. President

Nik said:


> Mr. President said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the person killed was an illegal alien then Mexico should be pressing charges not America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mexico has no jurisdiction on American soil.  Why do you want to give control over prosecuting Americans who commit crimes on American soil to the Mexicans?  You globalist you.
Click to expand...


Oh it is simply sarcasm my good friend.  But should they be subject to the geneva convention because they mistreated what was presumed to be an invading force?


----------



## Nik

Lonestar_logic said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think anytime someone beats the shit out of someone or murders someone, they probably hate the person their victimizing. In other words all violent crime is motivated by hatred, so why the need for the distinction?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, because nobody ever gets murdered for money
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What like a hit man or killing someone in the act of robbing them? I can almost guarantee the emotions the perpetrator has would be anything but love.
Click to expand...


There are more emotions than love or hate.


----------



## JBeukema

Mr. President said:


> If the person killed was an illegal alien then Mexico should be pressing charges not America.



Castle doctrine, bitch- kill the fucker


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Mr. President said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the person killed was an illegal alien then Mexico should be pressing charges not America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Castle doctrine, bitch- kill the fucker
Click to expand...


Sociopath.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> Sociopath.



You are unethical. Your internet degree is hereby revoked


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Nik said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right, because nobody ever gets murdered for money
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What like a hit man or killing someone in the act of robbing them? I can almost guarantee the emotions the perpetrator has would be anything but love.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are more emotions than love or hate.
Click to expand...


Give some examples of emotions that would drive someone to murder. 

Seriously if your going to debate then at least present a counter argument. Just saying there are more emotions involved without saying what those emotions are is really lame. Hell if you need to be educated on how to argue a point then by all means go get you some.

Give me examples of people attacking people that was not motivated by hatred. Give examples of murders that were committed by people that harbored no ill will. 

I swear my five year old grandson has better debating skills than some of the folks on here.


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sociopath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are unethical. Your internet degree is hereby revoked
Click to expand...


Lmfao.  I'm unethical because I don't think its ok to murder people for illegally crossing the border?

Your degree at life is revoked.


----------



## Nik

Lonestar_logic said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> What like a hit man or killing someone in the act of robbing them? I can almost guarantee the emotions the perpetrator has would be anything but love.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are more emotions than love or hate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Give some examples of emotions that would drive someone to murder.
> 
> Seriously if your going to debate then at least present a counter argument. Just saying there are more emotions involved without saying what those emotions are is really lame. Hell if you need to be educated on how to argue a point then by all means go get you some.
> 
> Give me examples of people attacking people that was not motivated by hatred. Give examples of murders that were committed by people that harbored no ill will.
> 
> I swear my five year old grandson has better debating skills than some of the folks on here.
Click to expand...


Oy.  Are you really this fucking stupid?

Not only emotions drive people to murder.  It could be other things, such as need or want for money.  You really need me to provide you with evidence of this?

Here is a good search with millions of results.  Many of those people were murdered for money.  Not out of hate.  

murdered for money - Google Search


----------



## JBeukema

Lonestar_logic said:


> Give some examples of emotions that would drive someone to murder.


rage, jealousy, fear, paranoia...





Nik said:


> Lmfao.  I'm unethical because I don't think its ok to murder people for illegally crossing the border?
> 
> .


You tried to play like you're a psychologist. You must've gotten you degree online. The ethical code- you know what, nevermind. You're too stupid to talk to me. Goodbye


----------



## catzmeow

Black and brown gang members kill each other daily.  Going to charge those as hate crimes, too?  I guarantee that hate IS in fact the motive.  But, it's gang-related hate, not race-related hate.

What's the difference?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Black and brown gang members kill each other daily.  Going to charge those as hate crimes, too?  I guarantee that hate IS in fact the motive.  But, it's gang-related hate, not race-related hate.
> 
> What's the difference?



People choose gangs.  You don't get to choose your race.


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give some examples of emotions that would drive someone to murder.
> 
> 
> 
> rage, jealousy, fear, paranoia...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lmfao.  I'm unethical because I don't think its ok to murder people for illegally crossing the border?
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You tried to play like you're a psychologist. You must've gotten you degree online. The ethical code- you know what, nevermind. You're too stupid to talk to me. Goodbye
Click to expand...


You don't need to be a psychologist to be able to infer really simple facts about someones psychology.  I don't need to go to Med school for 3 years to see that someone is bleeding either.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Nik said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are more emotions than love or hate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Give some examples of emotions that would drive someone to murder.
> 
> Seriously if your going to debate then at least present a counter argument. Just saying there are more emotions involved without saying what those emotions are is really lame. Hell if you need to be educated on how to argue a point then by all means go get you some.
> 
> Give me examples of people attacking people that was not motivated by hatred. Give examples of murders that were committed by people that harbored no ill will.
> 
> I swear my five year old grandson has better debating skills than some of the folks on here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oy.  Are you really this fucking stupid?
> 
> Not only emotions drive people to murder.  It could be other things, such as need or want for money.  You really need me to provide you with evidence of this?
> 
> Here is a good search with millions of results.  Many of those people were murdered for money.  Not out of hate.
> 
> murdered for money - Google Search
Click to expand...


Normally when someone makes a claim it's on them to back it up. Tell me what drove these people to commit murder for money and what do you suppose their enotional state was at the time? It couldn't have been any form of hatred. I'd argue that if I killed you for your vehicle then I was probably pissed off that you had something I didn't, therefore I'd kill your dumbass and take it away from you. 

It never ceases to amaze me how brave folks get over the internet. I bet you would never have the courage to call me stupid in person. But that's an argument for another day. A little word of advice, grow up!


----------



## Nik

Lonestar_logic said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give some examples of emotions that would drive someone to murder.
> 
> Seriously if your going to debate then at least present a counter argument. Just saying there are more emotions involved without saying what those emotions are is really lame. Hell if you need to be educated on how to argue a point then by all means go get you some.
> 
> Give me examples of people attacking people that was not motivated by hatred. Give examples of murders that were committed by people that harbored no ill will.
> 
> I swear my five year old grandson has better debating skills than some of the folks on here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oy.  Are you really this fucking stupid?
> 
> Not only emotions drive people to murder.  It could be other things, such as need or want for money.  You really need me to provide you with evidence of this?
> 
> Here is a good search with millions of results.  Many of those people were murdered for money.  Not out of hate.
> 
> murdered for money - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Normally when someone makes a claim it's on them to back it up. Tell me what drove these people to commit murder for money and what do you suppose their enotional state was at the time? It couldn't have been any form of hatred. I'd argue that if I killed you for your vehicle then I was probably pissed off that you had something I didn't, therefore I'd kill your dumbass and take it away from you.
Click to expand...


*sigh*

My claim was that there are more emotions than love and hate.  You really need me to back that up?  You want me to wipe your ass when you take a shit too?  

I have no idea what their emotional state was at the time, but thats irrelevant.  They weren't doing it out of hate, they were doing it out of a desire for tangible items.  Whatever emotions they may have been feeling aren't relevant to the argument.  



> It never ceases to amaze me how brave folks get over the internet. I bet you would never have the courage to call me stupid in person. But that's an argument for another day. A little word of advice, grow up!



If you are going to throw around insults, expect them to get them thrown back in your face.  Especially when you say really stupid shit like "omg you aren't logical cause I know he did it out of hate, cause he surely didn't do it out of love!!!!!"


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> People choose gangs.



Not everyone would agree on that. What of a little kid who grows up in a ghetto controlled by gang X, whose family is all gang X, and who is brought into gang X and taught loyalty to gang X from the moment he can speak?


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> People choose gangs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not everyone would agree on that. What of a little kid who grows up in a ghetto controlled by gang X, whose family is all gang X, and who is brought into gang X and taught loyalty to gang X from the moment he can speak?
Click to expand...


Its a shitty situation, but in some sense he could still leave.  But thinking of complex hypos where someone actually must join a gang isn't really helpful.  The point is that race is immutable, and being in a gang is not.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> Its a shitty situation, but in some sense he could still leave.  But thinking of complex hypos where someone actually must join a gang isn't really helpful.


it's not a hypo- it's reality for many in America



> The point is that race is immutable, and being in a gang is not.


Once, always. the only way out is in a casket, when it comes to some things...


Reality is a bitch


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a shitty situation, but in some sense he could still leave.  But thinking of complex hypos where someone actually must join a gang isn't really helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> it's not a hypo- it's reality for many in America
Click to expand...


Its really not.  Gangs are a reality, but most people don't get born into them.  And that something actually happens in life doesn't mean that its not a hypo.  



> The point is that race is immutable, and being in a gang is not.
> 
> 
> 
> Once, always. the only way out is in a casket, when it comes to some things...
> 
> 
> Reality is a bitch
Click to expand...

[/quote]

Yes it is.  But also irrelevant to the discussion of hate crimes, despite what you and other people want to bring in.

Being in a gang isn't the same as being black.  I really shouldn't have to explain this type of shit.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> The point is that race is immutable, and being in a gang is not.



Neither is being born on the wrong side of the street. Inter-gang violence is a hate crime


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point is that race is immutable, and being in a gang is not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither is being born on the wrong side of the street. Inter-gang violence is a hate crime
Click to expand...


Being born on the wrong side of the street isn't synonymous with being in a gang.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Black and brown gang members kill each other daily.  Going to charge those as hate crimes, too?  I guarantee that hate IS in fact the motive.  But, it's gang-related hate, not race-related hate.
> 
> What's the difference?



Are you really serious?  You don't know the difference between gang violence and hate crime?


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> Being born on the wrong side of the street isn't synonymous with being in a gang.



Born on the wrong side of the street = association wit that street's gang, especially if your family or neighbor is a member.

Kinda like being born to a black family males you black, even of you're a halfbreed who identifies as something else


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Nik said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oy.  Are you really this fucking stupid?
> 
> Not only emotions drive people to murder.  It could be other things, such as need or want for money.  You really need me to provide you with evidence of this?
> 
> Here is a good search with millions of results.  Many of those people were murdered for money.  Not out of hate.
> 
> murdered for money - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Normally when someone makes a claim it's on them to back it up. Tell me what drove these people to commit murder for money and what do you suppose their enotional state was at the time? It couldn't have been any form of hatred. I'd argue that if I killed you for your vehicle then I was probably pissed off that you had something I didn't, therefore I'd kill your dumbass and take it away from you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> My claim was that there are more emotions than love and hate.  You really need me to back that up?  You want me to wipe your ass when you take a shit too?
> 
> I have no idea what their emotional state was at the time, but thats irrelevant.  They weren't doing it out of hate, they were doing it out of a desire for tangible items.  Whatever emotions they may have been feeling aren't relevant to the argument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how brave folks get over the internet. I bet you would never have the courage to call me stupid in person. But that's an argument for another day. A little word of advice, grow up!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you are going to throw around insults, expect them to get them thrown back in your face.  Especially when you say really stupid shit like "omg you aren't logical cause I know he did it out of hate, cause he surely didn't do it out of love!!!!!"
Click to expand...


I doubt you can even wipe your own ass, much less anyone elses. FTR I would never say "omg" fact is violent crimes are violent because the emotions are anything but loving or tender. If you're not bright enough to realize that then that's your cross to carry. 

I insulted you by stating the fact that you do not know how to properly present an argument? You shouldn't be insulted because of that, you should be ashamed.


----------



## JBeukema

Lonestar_logic said:


> I doubt you can even wipe your own ass, much less anyone elses.


Why would he want to wipe _someone else's_ ass?


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being born on the wrong side of the street isn't synonymous with being in a gang.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Born on the wrong side of the street = association wit that street's gang, especially if your family or neighbor is a member.
> 
> Kinda like being born to a black family males you black, even of you're a halfbreed who identifies as something else
Click to expand...


Then move.  It might suck, but its something that you have the ability to change.  Furthermore, there are many people who actively choose to join gangs, which you are conveniently ignoring.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> Then move.  It might suck, but its something that you have the ability to change.  Furthermore, there are many people who actively choose to join gangs, which you are conveniently ignoring.



Not if age or socio-economic conditions make that impossible.

Either gang violence= hate crime, or 'hate crime' laws are simply stupid. Those are the only options, thanks to the logic of the idiot libs who want these laws.

Which is it?


----------



## Nik

Lonestar_logic said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Normally when someone makes a claim it's on them to back it up. Tell me what drove these people to commit murder for money and what do you suppose their enotional state was at the time? It couldn't have been any form of hatred. I'd argue that if I killed you for your vehicle then I was probably pissed off that you had something I didn't, therefore I'd kill your dumbass and take it away from you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> My claim was that there are more emotions than love and hate.  You really need me to back that up?  You want me to wipe your ass when you take a shit too?
> 
> I have no idea what their emotional state was at the time, but thats irrelevant.  They weren't doing it out of hate, they were doing it out of a desire for tangible items.  Whatever emotions they may have been feeling aren't relevant to the argument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how brave folks get over the internet. I bet you would never have the courage to call me stupid in person. But that's an argument for another day. A little word of advice, grow up!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you are going to throw around insults, expect them to get them thrown back in your face.  Especially when you say really stupid shit like "omg you aren't logical cause I know he did it out of hate, cause he surely didn't do it out of love!!!!!"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt you can even wipe your own ass, much less anyone elses. FTR I would never say "omg" fact is violent crimes are violent because the emotions are anything but loving or tender. If you're not bright enough to realize that then that's your cross to carry.
> 
> I insulted you by stating the fact that you do not know how to properly present an argument? You shouldn't be insulted because of that, you should be ashamed.
Click to expand...


I can wipe my ass just fine, and I don't really know if I can wipe other peoples.  I haven't tried.  Is this something you have extensive experience with?  Wiping other peoples asses?  

And I don't really care if you would say omg.  I was mocking you.  Its not hard to understand.  

Wow, violent crimes aren't loving and tender?  Wow.  I didn't know that.  Thanks for enlightening me to that incredibly obvious fact that nobody has argued against.  What I am arguing is that hate crimes are a specific type of hate towards an immutable characteristic.  Killing someone for money isn't killing for hate, its killing for goods.  

Yes, thats an insult.  If you can't figure out that, I really can't help you.  Its time for the nursery home for you, gramps.


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then move.  It might suck, but its something that you have the ability to change.  Furthermore, there are many people who actively choose to join gangs, which you are conveniently ignoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not if age or socio-economic conditions make that impossible.
> 
> Either gang violence= hate crime, or 'hate crime' laws are simply stupid. Those are the only options, thanks to the logic of the idiot libs who want these laws.
> 
> Which is it?
Click to expand...


Oy.  No, they aren't the only options.  There is NOBODY who can change their race, whereas there are MANY people who can change their gang affiliation.  Pointing to a minority who can't doesn't help you.


----------



## JBeukema

Nik said:


> Oy.  No, they aren't the only options.  There is NOBODY who can change their race, whereas there are MANY people who can change their gang affiliation.  Pointing to a minority who can't doesn't help you.



It is a hate crime. They were assaulted by Y because they were perceived as Y- the very criterion you people put forth for a 'hate crime'


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Its a shitty situation, but in some sense he could still leave.  But thinking of complex hypos where someone actually must join a gang isn't really helpful.  The point is that race is immutable, and being in a gang is not.



I don't think that hate crimes between gangs are less hate crimes than hate crimes between less.

The intention is to terrorize an entire group/community.  It works.  There's very little difference.

But, I don't think Nik wants to be rational about this.  He just wants this legislation, whether it works or not...because he wants it.


----------



## Sky Dancer

What hate crime is and what causes it.
http://www.cahro.org/html/hate_crimes.html#whatcauseshate


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oy.  No, they aren't the only options.  There is NOBODY who can change their race, whereas there are MANY people who can change their gang affiliation.  Pointing to a minority who can't doesn't help you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a hate crime. They were assaulted by Y because they were perceived as Y- the very criterion you people put forth for a 'hate crime'
Click to expand...


Really?  I put forth that criterion?  Where exactly?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a shitty situation, but in some sense he could still leave.  But thinking of complex hypos where someone actually must join a gang isn't really helpful.  The point is that race is immutable, and being in a gang is not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that hate crimes between gangs are less hate crimes than hate crimes between less.
> 
> The intention is to terrorize an entire group/community.  It works.  There's very little difference.
> 
> But, I don't think Nik wants to be rational about this.  He just wants this legislation, whether it works or not...because he wants it.
Click to expand...


Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race


----------



## JBeukema

catzmeow said:


> I don't think that hate crimes between gangs are less hate crimes than hate crimes between less.
> \.



I don't know what language that is, but it sure doesn't look like English


----------



## Barb

really. A jury&#039;s hate-crime verdict in rural Pennsylvania reinforces the racial divide | Crooks and Liars


----------



## Barb

javascript:imagemapclickcontroller('OK')

SPLCenter.org: Hate Groups Map

"The Southern Poverty Law Center counted 926 active hate groups in the United States in 2008. Only organizations and their chapters known to be active during 2008 are included."


----------



## LaLinda75

*Gang fights are NOT about hate - they are about TERRITORY!*


----------



## Mr. President

Does the reason really make the action any worse?  If a guy raped a girl because she was black and a guy raped a girl because a voice told him too would you rather both have been raped by the guy hearing the voice because at least then it wasn't racially motivated?  Would you sentence the guy who heard a voice to any less time? See the issue is that race is a non issue a crime is a crime.


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Does the reason really make the action any worse?  If a guy raped a girl because she was black and a guy raped a girl because a voice told him too would you rather both have been raped by the guy hearing the voice because at least then it wasn't racially motivated?  Would you sentence the guy who heard a voice to any less time? See the issue is that race is a non issue a crime is a crime.



Oy, try reading the thread.  This issue has been asked, and addressed.


----------



## Mr. President

SO why is this arguement still going on.  Stubborn is one thing being unable to use logic and fact to back your claims or refusing to comprehend data for the reason that it will weaken your arguement is ignorant.  There is no difference between a racially motivated crime and a gang crime.  When a gang beats and robs a man because he is in ownership of a piece of property that the gang wants is it his fault for buying it?  Killing for possesions is a hate crime because someone hates that another person has what they want.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race



You're not rational because you don't understand that from the perspective of a victim, all crimes look like hate crimes.  Nor do you understand that from the perspective of prosecution, hate crimes legislation creates protected classes where by just by being a victim/suspect of a specific skin color or sexual orientation, your crime is treated differently from an identical crime on the same day involving similar perpetrators/victims.  That isn't justice.


----------



## cunclusion

Not all crimes that are commited against someone of a particular creed, race or sexual orientation on another is categorized as that. Only when they start with slurs that are demeaning to the other person then it is categorized as that. If a white or black man just goes up to  each other and just shoots and one dies the other goes to jail you will not hear much about it but when they are spouting ignorance towards each other then hate crime comes into effect. Which means to avoid such things a person needs to thinking correctly.
1. Not be part of a group that will pretty much almost make it an automatic hate crime.
2. Dont say anything ignorant(like that is going to happen)
3. Just walk away (makes the most sense anyway)...


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> SO why is this arguement still going on.  Stubborn is one thing being unable to use logic and fact to back your claims or refusing to comprehend data for the reason that it will weaken your arguement is ignorant.  There is no difference between a racially motivated crime and a gang crime.  When a gang beats and robs a man because he is in ownership of a piece of property that the gang wants is it his fault for buying it?  Killing for possesions is a hate crime because someone hates that another person has what they want.



No, its not "his fault".  I knew someone was going to say something retarded like this.  Just because a crime isn't predicated on hate doesn't mean its not a crime or shouldn't be prevented.  Someone being killed is bad whether its because of hate, or for property.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're not rational because you don't understand that from the perspective of a victim, all crimes look like hate crimes.  Nor do you understand that from the perspective of prosecution, hate crimes legislation creates protected classes where by just by being a victim/suspect of a specific skin color or sexual orientation, your crime is treated differently from an identical crime on the same day involving similar perpetrators/victims.  That isn't justice.
Click to expand...


Why exactly are you looking at this from the perspective of the victim?  I know you are overly emotional and have trouble looking at things rationally, but surely we should be looking at this from the perspective of objective, rational observers, not the victim.  

And your assertion about the "perspective of prosecution" is false.  Its not about the race of the victims or the criminals, its about the motives of the criminal.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're not rational because you don't understand that from the perspective of a victim, all crimes look like hate crimes.  Nor do you understand that from the perspective of prosecution, hate crimes legislation creates protected classes where by just by being a victim/suspect of a specific skin color or sexual orientation, your crime is treated differently from an identical crime on the same day involving similar perpetrators/victims.  That isn't justice.
Click to expand...


It is patently obvious that you are clueless about hate crime.  You're like a Holocaust denier.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Barb said:


> javascript:imagemapclickcontroller('OK')
> 
> SPLCenter.org: Hate Groups Map
> 
> "The Southern Poverty Law Center counted 926 active hate groups in the United States in 2008. Only organizations and their chapters known to be active during 2008 are included."



The whole point of denying that hate crime exists is to denigrate the classes of people that are included in the legislation.

It's flame baiting pure and simple.

I support the work of the Southern Poverty Law Center, and Morris Dees is a personal hero.  Thanks for mentioning them in your post.  Here's an excellent article by the Bureau of Justice about hate crime in Sacramento and one communities response to that.  Provided by the Sacramento Police Department.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/fs000161.pdf


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Why exactly are you looking at this from the perspective of the victim?  I know you are overly emotional and have trouble looking at things rationally, but surely we should be looking at this from the perspective of objective, rational observers, not the victim.
> 
> And your assertion about the "perspective of prosecution" is false.  Its not about the race of the victims or the criminals, its about the motives of the criminal.



You calling anyone overly emotional is rich, dude, given that you've been unable to substantiate ANY of your so-called points with evidence.

I think I'm done pretending like you HAVE a point.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Here is a report from Salon, which covered the murder and trial extensively, that could help inform Rep. Foxx of the truth about Matthew Shepards murder:

_According to the detectives, Hendersons testimony also would have resolved the most contested issue of the case: that he and McKinney initially approached Shepard and posed as gays to lure him out of the Fireside Lounge to rob him.

Henderson provided a detailed account of that plan. The killers identified Shepard as a lonely homosexual, an easy mark, and retreated to the bathroom to hatch their plot. Henderson made the first advance by whispering a come-on in Shepards ear, and McKinney tried to feminize his voice to continue the lure, DeBree said.
Even the initial robbery plan was planned entirely because he was gay.  And that is not even to consider the eventual way in which the robbers-turned-killers brutalized Matthew, beat in his skull, tied him to a fence and left him to die._
Remembering Our History, Improving Our Future « Law Dork, 2.0


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why exactly are you looking at this from the perspective of the victim?  I know you are overly emotional and have trouble looking at things rationally, but surely we should be looking at this from the perspective of objective, rational observers, not the victim.
> 
> And your assertion about the "perspective of prosecution" is false.  Its not about the race of the victims or the criminals, its about the motives of the criminal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You calling anyone overly emotional is rich, dude, given that you've been unable to substantiate ANY of your so-called points with evidence.
> 
> I think I'm done pretending like you HAVE a point.
Click to expand...


Exactly what evidence are you looking for?

And yes, you are acting overly emotional.  You can bitch, whine, and cry about that all you want, but you wanted to look at this only from the perspective of the victim.  Thats being emotional.  Anyone rational would want to look at it from ALL perspectives.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> The whole point of denying that hate crime exists is to denigrate the classes of people that are included in the legislation.
> 
> It's flame baiting pure and simple.



That's your perception, but it is mistaken.  There are MANY, MANY people who work in the system with violent crime who consider this legislation to be an ineffectual sop to advocacy groups.  It's not about denigrating those groups, but about EMBRACING WHAT WORKS, and discarding those actions that are purely symbolic in nature (versus effective).

I prefer actions be taken that actually ACCOMPLISH A STATED GOAL, rather than just taking action to give the appearance of doing something.

If we REALLY wanted to deal with the issue of violence against gays and lesbians, we'd deal more openly with domestic violence issues, given that the overwhelming majority of violent crimes against gays/lesbians aren't HATE related, but domestic violence related.

It's the same kind of stilted politically correct nonsense that attempts to hush up the issue of female perpetrators of domestic violence and paint all men as aggressors.

The fact of the matter is that the number 1 risk to the health of gays and lesbians, in regards to crime, is OTHER GAYS AND LESBIANS:

Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/repo...05nycdvrpt.pdf.
*One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime. *

But you don't want to deal with that.  You prefer to paint straight people as your personal scapegoats, no matter what the facts say, just like you prefer to paint men as aggressors against women.

Do you realize that white people are about a thousand times more likely to be victimized by a black person than vice versa, based upon crime stats?  I learned that trying to disprove a claim by a racist on this board.  But, that won't stop these kinds of legislation from going forward.

Who cares what the inconvenient truth is, anyway?  We like to have our protected victim classes, no matter what the truth of the matter is.  They're our pet projects, our way of absolving liberal guilt.


----------



## catzmeow

Facts about violence against gays/lesbians:



> Domestic violence occurs within same-sex relationships as it does in heterosexual relationships. The acronym LGBT is often used and stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender.
> 
> 11% of lesbians reported violence by their female partner and 15% of gay men who had lived with a male partner reported being victimized by a male partner.
> 
> Patricia Tjaden, Symposium on Integrating Responses to Domestic Violence: Extent and Nature of Intimate Partner Violence as measured by the National Violence Against Women Survey, 47 Loy. L. Rev. 41, 54 (2003).
> 
> Of the LGBT victims who sought services from the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project, 36% of clients in 2003 and 38% of clients in 2004 filed police reports regarding intimate partner violence.
> 
> Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 6 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.
> 
> Eighty-eight percent of victims in 2003 and 91 percent of victims in 2004 reported experiencing prior incidents of abuse, with the majority (45 percent and 47 percent, respectively) reporting having experienced more than 10 prior incidents.
> 
> Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.
> *One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime. *
> 
> Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice
> *15.4% of same-sex cohabiting men reported being raped, physically assaulted and/or stalked by a male partner, but 10.8% reported such violence by a female partner*.
> 
> Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice
> 
> According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs:
> 
> 6,523 incidence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender violence were recorded in eleven distinct cities and regions across the USA and Toronto, Ontario. 44% of the victims were men and 36% were women. This represented a 13% increase over the 5718 cases reported in 2002 by the same agencies and includes six reported deaths in the context of actual or suspected LGBT violence. Arizona reported one death and New York City reported five deaths.
> 
> 4,964 or about 79% of the new incidents were reported in Los Angeles. The number of LGBT incidents in other cities and states include Boston (290), New York City (501), San Francisco (388), Colorado (139) , Chicago (65), Columbus, Ohio (46) , Pennsylvania (19) , Burlington, Vermont (21), Tuscon (64).
> 
> 5,374 (82%) of the victims of domestic violence reported to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs identified themselves as gay; 575 (9%) were cases in which the victim declined to specify a sexual orientation or it was not recorded; 263 (4%) identified as bisexual; and 44 (0.6 %) were not sure or questioned their sexual orientation.
> 
> Of the 42% incidence of domestic violence where race was recorded, 1,211 or 44% were white, 684 or 25% were Latino, 413 or 15% were of African descent, 153 or 5% were Asian/Pacific Islander, 125 or 4% were multicultural; just under 36 or 0.01% were indigenous/first people and about 0.01 were Arab/Middle Easterners, Jewish and others.
> 
> Nat'l Advoc. for Local Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Communities, Nat'l Coal. of Anti-Violence Programs, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Domestic Violence: 2003 Supplement - An Update from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (2004), at 3-8, 10, available at Reports--AVP: The Anti-Violence Project



American Bar Association - Commission on Domestic Violence: Key Statistics

Tell me...how many hate crimes were committed against gays/lesbians in the past year?  Was it 5,000?


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Exactly what evidence are you looking for?



1.  Evidence as to the number of hate crimes directed towards gays/lesbians annually in the U.S.

2.  Evidence that hate crime laws reduce violent crimes against the protected class.

That will be sufficient.  You've offered NO evidence, to date, of any of your claims.


----------



## catzmeow

The only reason I know what I do about crimes against gays/lesbians is because, about 15 years ago, the department I worked for did a study of violent crime against gays/lesbians, with the goal of dealing with hate crime.  The department found that there were VERY FEW hate crimes against gays/lesbians, and that the overwhelming majority of time that gays/lesbians were the victims of violence, the perpetrators were OTHER GAYS/LESBIANS.

When the department went back to the gay/lesbian community with this information, the crime stat were quickly hushed up. They inconveniently didn't support the advocacy groups' existing paradigms about violence in their community.

They were never released to the media, as had been planned.  The advocacy groups went on with their crusade against hate, and the truth was never discussed openly.

Welcome to the world of PC run amok.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.

The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July.  A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire.  Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.

The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.

After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.

Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks.  Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings.  A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found.  Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.

Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.  

Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> The only reason I know what I do about crimes against gays/lesbians is because, about 15 years ago, the department I worked for did a study of violent crime against gays/lesbians, with the goal of dealing with hate crime.  The department found that there were VERY FEW hate crimes against gays/lesbians, and that the overwhelming majority of time that gays/lesbians were the victims of violence, the perpetrators were OTHER GAYS/LESBIANS.
> 
> When the department went back to the gay/lesbian community with this information, the crime stat were quickly hushed up. They inconveniently didn't support the advocacy groups' existing paradigms about violence in their community.
> 
> They were never released to the media, as had been planned.  The advocacy groups went on with their crusade against hate, and the truth was never discussed openly.
> 
> Welcome to the world of PC run amok.



Never released to the media, how convenient for you.  Your argument is about numbers, which doesn't address the fact that hate crime against gays and lesbians exists and that the Matthew Shepard Act is needed.

All this act does is add gays and lesbians to the list of minorities targeted by hate crime and included already in the 1968 Hate Crime law.

You don't give a shit about violence against gays and lesbians, IMO.  No surprises there.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.
> 
> The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July.  A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire.  Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.
> 
> The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.
> 
> After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.
> 
> Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks.  Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings.  A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found.  Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.
> 
> Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.
> 
> Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.



During that time period in 1993, how many whites were robbed, raped, and murdered by blacks in Sacramento?  During that time period in 1993, how many blacks were victims of violent crimes perpetrated by OTHER BLACK PEOPLE?

That is the reality of crime in America...the hate crimes get all the coverage, but in terms of numbers, they are VERY INSIGNIFICANT in comparison to ongoing victimization of blacks and whites by black perpetrators.

I'm not a racist, that is based upon actual data.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Never released to the media, how convenient for you.



Conveniently enough, these were:

Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/repo...05nycdvrpt.pdf.
One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime. 

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice
15.4% of same-sex cohabiting men reported being raped, physically assaulted and/or stalked by a male partner, but 10.8% reported such violence by a female partner.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice

According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs: 

6,523 incidence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender violence were recorded in eleven distinct cities and regions across the USA and Toronto, Ontario. 44% of the victims were men and 36% were women. This represented a 13% increase over the 5718 cases reported in 2002 by the same agencies and includes six reported deaths in the context of actual or suspected LGBT violence. Arizona reported one death and New York City reported five deaths. 

4,964 or about 79% of the new incidents were reported in Los Angeles. The number of LGBT incidents in other cities and states include Boston (290), New York City (501), San Francisco (388), Colorado (139) , Chicago (65), Columbus, Ohio (46) , Pennsylvania (19) , Burlington, Vermont (21), Tuscon (64). 

5,374 (82%) of the victims of domestic violence reported to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs identified themselves as gay; 575 (9%) were cases in which the victim declined to specify a sexual orientation or it was not recorded; 263 (4%) identified as bisexual; and 44 (0.6 %) were not sure or questioned their sexual orientation. 

Of the 42% incidence of domestic violence where race was recorded, 1,211 or 44% were white, 684 or 25% were Latino, 413 or 15% were of African descent, 153 or 5% were Asian/Pacific Islander, 125 or 4% were multicultural; just under 36 or 0.01% were indigenous/first people and about 0.01 were Arab/Middle Easterners, Jewish and others.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catz

You're like a Holocaust denier, only instead of Jews being who you want to hurt, you target gays and lesbians.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.
> 
> The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July.  A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire.  Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.
> 
> The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.
> 
> After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.
> 
> Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks.  Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings.  A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found.  Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.
> 
> Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.
> 
> Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During that time period in 1993, how many whites were robbed, raped, and murdered by blacks in Sacramento?  During that time period in 1993, how many blacks were victims of violent crimes perpetrated by OTHER BLACK PEOPLE?
> 
> 
> *I'm not a racist,* that is based upon actual data.
Click to expand...



I provided actual data documenting a wave of hate crime that terrorized the Sacramento community in 1993 and your response?  Minimize it's importance--deflect to other crimes so that you can pretend that hate crimes don't happen and aren't important.

Other crime occurs, but individual crime did not terrorize the Sacramento community the way this wave of hate motivated arson did.  You're a hate crime denier in much the same way as a Holocaust denier with the same tactics--deflect to the numbers.  Was it six million Jews or only three million?  

Too bad your mind is such a steel trap on the subject.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole point of denying that hate crime exists is to denigrate the classes of people that are included in the legislation.
> 
> It's flame baiting pure and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's your perception, but it is mistaken.  There are MANY, MANY people who work in the system with violent crime who consider this legislation to be an ineffectual sop to advocacy groups.  It's not about denigrating those groups, but about EMBRACING WHAT WORKS, and discarding those actions that are purely symbolic in nature (versus effective).
Click to expand...


Its debatable whether its effectual or not.  But the bullshit you spew about how all crimes are hate, and about how theres no difference between gang violence and hate crimes against gays. 



> I prefer actions be taken that actually ACCOMPLISH A STATED GOAL, rather than just taking action to give the appearance of doing something.



Ok, I'll go survey all the people who were gonna commit a crime, but now didn't.  

Although there are ways to measure those stats, they are pretty hard.  Its pretty unclear what exactly hate legislation does.  



> If we REALLY wanted to deal with the issue of violence against gays and lesbians, we'd deal more openly with domestic violence issues, given that the overwhelming majority of violent crimes against gays/lesbians aren't HATE related, but domestic violence related.



Symbolism matters.  Theres a reason why we went to war, and spend billions on dollars because of 9/11 even though "only" 3,000 people died.  Spending 90 billion for another 6 months in Iraq is just thought of as the price we need to pay for "safety".  Whereas 90 billion for healthcare is somehow a massive waste of money.  

But this thought process goes on in homosexuals minds as well.  People aren't in perpetual fear of being a victim of domestic violence.  They have some semblance of control over it.  Tell me exactly what control a victim of a hate crime has over that?  



> It's the same kind of stilted politically correct nonsense that attempts to hush up the issue of female perpetrators of domestic violence and paint all men as aggressors.



Nobody attempts to "hush it up".  But males disproportionately are abusers.  



> The fact of the matter is that the number 1 risk to the health of gays and lesbians, in regards to crime, is OTHER GAYS AND LESBIANS.



And we can, and should, address that.  But that is something that can be addressed within the GLBT community.  Hate crimes are something all of society needs to deal with.  




> Do you realize that white people are about a thousand times more likely to be victimized by a black person than vice versa, based upon crime stats?  I learned that trying to disprove a claim by a racist on this board.  But, that won't stop these kinds of legislation from going forward.



And this diminishes the seriousness of hate crimes, how exactly?  



> Who cares what the inconvenient truth is, anyway?  We like to have our protected victim classes, no matter what the truth of the matter is.  They're our pet projects, our way of absolving liberal guilt.



You aren't speaking truth, you are just making weird generalizations and speaking emotionally.


----------



## catzmeow

*Hate crimes directed towards gays/lesbians during 2003:  1447* (this is based upon stats from the FBI (8715 total incidents times 16.6% of them being gender bias incidents)

Source:  FBI Releases 2003 Hate Crime Statistics

*Gays/lesbians as victims of domestic assault during 2003:  6,523*

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice

According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs: 

6,523 incidences of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender violence were recorded in eleven distinct cities and regions across the USA and Toronto, Ontario. 44% of the victims were men and 36% were women. This represented a 13% increase over the 5718 cases reported in 2002 by the same agencies and includes six reported deaths in the context of actual or suspected LGBT violence. Arizona reported one death and New York City reported five deaths. 

4,964 or about 79% of the new incidents were reported in Los Angeles. The number of LGBT incidents in other cities and states include Boston (290), New York City (501), San Francisco (388), Colorado (139) , Chicago (65), Columbus, Ohio (46) , Pennsylvania (19) , Burlington, Vermont (21), Tuscon (64). 

*Do you get that gays/lesbians are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE VICTIMIZED BY A MEMBER OF THEIR OWN SEXUAL ORIENTATION AS TO BE A VICTIM OF A HATE CRIME?*


----------



## Sky Dancer

A substantial majority of the American public favors the expansion of federal hate crime legislation to include crimes against people based on their gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity. The U.S. House of Representatives has passed such legislation, which is now being considered by the Senate. Republicans, conservatives, and religious Americans are slightly less likely than others to favor the expansion of hate crime legislation, but a majority of those in each of these conservative and religious groups favors the proposed legislation.
Public Favors Expansion of Hate Crime Law to Include Sexual Orientation


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Nobody attempts to "hush it up".  But males disproportionately are abusers.



Wrong.  If you look at it, on a per capita basis, domestic violence occurs about 50% more in gay/lesbian couples than in hetero couples.  The reason that it looks like males are disproportionately abusers is because hetero couples so overwhelmingly outnumber gay/lesbian couples.

But, per capita tells you how likely it is to happen in any given couple...MUCH MORE LIKELY IN GAY/LESBIAN COUPLES.

Again.  No facts from you.  Just more claims without substantiation.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Do you get it that I understand the impact of domestic violence in general.  That has nothing to do with the need for hate crime law and extending it to include gays and lesbians.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what evidence are you looking for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Evidence as to the number of hate crimes directed towards gays/lesbians annually in the U.S.
Click to expand...


Table 1 - Hate Crime Statistics 2007

"Only" 1,400.  



> 2.  Evidence that hate crime laws reduce violent crimes against the protected class.
> 
> That will be sufficient.  You've offered NO evidence, to date, of any of your claims.



Sure, as I said I'll go survey those that were gonna commit crimes, but didn't.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Do you get it that I understand the impact of domestic violence in general.  That has nothing to do with the need for hate crime law and extending it to include gays and lesbians.



Actually, it does.  The fact of the matter is that when you talk about violence against gays/lesbians, the vast majority of that violence is perpetrated BY OTHER GAYS/LESBIANS.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what evidence are you looking for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Evidence as to the number of hate crimes directed towards gays/lesbians annually in the U.S.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Table 1 - Hate Crime Statistics 2007
> 
> 1,400.
Click to expand...


How many domestic assaults between gays/lesbians occurred during that time period?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Although the prevalence of anti-gay and lesbian violence is not fully known on a national scale, studies are providing detailed statistics on its possible extent: 

Anti-gay and lesbian incidents increased 8 percent from 1999 to 2000. Serious injuries resulting from these incidents decreased by forty-one percent (Moore, 2001). 
In 1999, the FBI reported that there were 1,317 incidents of violence based on sexual orientation. Of those, anti-male homosexuality violence characterized sixty-nine percent of the incidents (Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2000). 
Approximately one-half of perpetrators are age twenty-one or younger. (Comstock, 1991). 
A campus survey reported that 61 percent of the gay/lesbian respondents feared for their safety as their orientation would be used as a reason for violence. (Herek, Berrill, 1992). 

The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.
> 
> The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July.  A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire.  Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.
> 
> The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.
> 
> After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.
> 
> Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks.  Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings.  A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found.  Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.
> 
> Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.
> 
> Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During that time period in 1993, how many whites were robbed, raped, and murdered by blacks in Sacramento?  During that time period in 1993, how many blacks were victims of violent crimes perpetrated by OTHER BLACK PEOPLE?
> 
> That is the reality of crime in America...the hate crimes get all the coverage, but in terms of numbers, they are VERY INSIGNIFICANT in comparison to ongoing victimization of blacks and whites by black perpetrators.
> 
> I'm not a racist, that is based upon actual data.
Click to expand...


Do you not get that targeting someone because of an immutable characteristic is particularly horrible?  Do you not get that those events effect LOTS of people and not just the victim?  Do you not get that many of these people are regularly discriminated against in a variety of settings?  

This whole "well, other things are worse" argument is nonsensical.  Should we address black on black crime?  Yes.  But that other crime exists is NOT a reason to ignore hate crimes.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Evidence as to the number of hate crimes directed towards gays/lesbians annually in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Table 1 - Hate Crime Statistics 2007
> 
> 1,400.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many domestic assaults between gays/lesbians occurred during that time period?
Click to expand...


Try doing your own research.  And I've already pre-empted the claim you are going to make, so you might want to reply to that first.


----------



## Sky Dancer

&#8220;Current hate crimes law leaves federal prosecutors powerless to intervene in bias-motivated crimes when they cannot also establish that the crime was committed because of the victim&#8217;s involvement in a &#8216;federally protected activity,&#8217; such as serving on a jury, attending a public school, or voting.&#8221; 

At the same time, while limited federal support is available to police and prosecutors at the state and local level to confront violent hate crimes, this assistance is not available in cases of sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability bias crimes. Thus, there is now no federal back-stop to the efforts&#8212;or indifference&#8212;of local law enforcement and prosecutors to combat such crimes. 

The Act would also specifically provide for financial as well as nonfinancial &#8220;technical, forensic, and prosecutorial assistance&#8221; to state and local law enforcement bodies for investigating and prosecuting hate crimes. Further, the Act would bring the terms of federal criminal law regarding hate crimes into line with the monitoring requirements of the Hate Crime Statistics Act."
Usa | The Framework Of Law| Fighting Discrimination | Human Rights First


_Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. once said, &#8220;Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it.  Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it.  Hatred darkens life; love illumines it.&#8221;_


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Try doing your own research.  And I've already pre-empted the claim you are going to make, so you might want to reply to that first.



You have an obligation to prove your case here, Nik.  And, to put your arguments into scale.  *Gays/lesbians are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ASSAULTED BY A DOMESTIC PARTNER THAN TO BE A VICTIM OF A BIAS CRIME.*

Why isn't that your focus, if you sincerely care about violence against gays/lesbians?


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try doing your own research.  And I've already pre-empted the claim you are going to make, so you might want to reply to that first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have an obligation to prove your case here, Nik.  And, to put your arguments into scale.  *Gays/lesbians are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ASSAULTED BY A DOMESTIC PARTNER THAN TO BE A VICTIM OF A BIAS CRIME.*
> 
> Why isn't that your focus, if you sincerely care about violence against gays/lesbians?
Click to expand...


Admit that hate crime exists--toward any group.  Just try it.  It happens to be the truth.  I provided proof of a wave of hate related arson that targeted Jews, blacks and Asians and terrorized the community of Sacramento.    That's what hate crime is--not this domestic violence sideline you've detracted into.

This whole tactic to get into domestic violence is beside the point and you know it. 
Your point throughout the thread is hate crime denial.  

You show your true colors on this one.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you get it that I understand the impact of domestic violence in general.  That has nothing to do with the need for hate crime law and extending it to include gays and lesbians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it does.  The fact of the matter is that when you talk about violence against gays/lesbians, the vast majority of that violence is perpetrated BY OTHER GAYS/LESBIANS.
Click to expand...


Domestic violence is not hate crime as defined by the federal statutes.   It's in another category altogether which you very well know.

Hate crime denier.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try doing your own research.  And I've already pre-empted the claim you are going to make, so you might want to reply to that first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have an obligation to prove your case here, Nik.
Click to expand...


I did prove my case.  You are asking me to do research to try to prove YOUR case.  



> And, to put your arguments into scale.  *Gays/lesbians are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ASSAULTED BY A DOMESTIC PARTNER THAN TO BE A VICTIM OF A BIAS CRIME.*
> 
> Why isn't that your focus, if you sincerely care about violence against gays/lesbians?


[/quote]

Because nobody claims that domestic violence somehow isn't a problem.  And try to actually focus on the issues at hand, and less on what I should focus on.  What I do isn't the issue, although you want to make that the issue because you have no other argument.  The issue is that gay and lesbians suffer from hate crimes, and that is a problem.  That they suffer from other crimes, that other people are worse off, that gays and lesbians suffer violence from other GLBT folks isn't the point here.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try doing your own research.  And I've already pre-empted the claim you are going to make, so you might want to reply to that first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have an obligation to prove your case here, Nik.  And, to put your arguments into scale.  *Gays/lesbians are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ASSAULTED BY A DOMESTIC PARTNER THAN TO BE A VICTIM OF A BIAS CRIME.*
> 
> Why isn't that your focus, if you sincerely care about violence against gays/lesbians?
Click to expand...


It's not my focus in this thread because we are discussing hate crime, not domestic violence.  Why are YOU unconcerned about hate crime?   I'd like to know.  What do you think of the arson wave in Sacramento?  Was that NOT hate crime?  Why did you ignore that post?  Nevermind.  I know why.  I provided evidence of hate crime and you'd rather deny it.



On December 13, in the Bay Area city of Richmond, a lesbian woman was gang-raped by four men who used homophobic epithets as they violently assaulted her for almost an hour, before leaving her naked in the street.

The vicious attack began when four men jumped her after she got out of her car, which had a rainbow sticker on it, clubbed her with a blunt object, disrobed her and began raping her. When a passerby almost stumbled on them during the rape, they bundled the woman into her car and took her to an abandoned building, where the sexual attack continued, until the men finally left her naked, and badly injured.

Despite nearly zero national news coverage, some 200 people came out to a candlelight vigil December 27 to show their solidarity with the woman and her partner. Public outrage and community pressure on Richmond law enforcement resulted in arrests for those responsible for this heinous attack.

Activists note that anti-gay hate crimes are on the rise nationally. According to FBI statistics, hate crimes directed at people because of their sexual orientation have risen over the past two years--1,017 were reported in 2005, 1,195 in 2006 and 1,265 in 2007.
http://socialistworker.org/2009/01/19/anti-gay-hate-crimes


----------



## catzmeow

I should be concerned about an arson wave in 1993?  How long ago was that, Sky?

*Gays/lesbians are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ASSAULTED BY A DOMESTIC PARTNER THAN TO BE A VICTIM OF A BIAS CRIME.

Why isn't that your focus, if you sincerely care about violence against gays/lesbians? *


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> i should be concerned about an arson wave in 1993?  How long ago was that, sky?
> 
> *gays/lesbians are five times more likely to be assaulted by a domestic partner than to be a victim of a bias crime.
> 
> Why isn't that your focus, if you sincerely care about violence against gays/lesbians? *



its a thread about hate crimes you fucking idiot


----------



## Mr. President

Nik said:


> No, its not "his fault".  I knew someone was going to say something retarded like this.  Just because a crime isn't predicated on hate doesn't mean its not a crime or shouldn't be prevented.  Someone being killed is bad whether its because of hate, or for property.



What I said was not retarded it was to prove a point.  Why do we need to know why a crime is committed when a crime is committed?  The same penalty should be imposed on the same crimes regardless of "reason".


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not "his fault".  I knew someone was going to say something retarded like this.  Just because a crime isn't predicated on hate doesn't mean its not a crime or shouldn't be prevented.  Someone being killed is bad whether its because of hate, or for property.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was not retarded it was to prove a point.  Why do we need to know why a crime is committed when a crime is committed?  The same penalty should be imposed on the same crimes regardless of "reason".
Click to expand...


Really?

So we should impose the same penalty on someone who shoots someone in the face, on purpose, in self defense as someone who goes up to a cop and shoots him in the face?


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not "his fault".  I knew someone was going to say something retarded like this.  Just because a crime isn't predicated on hate doesn't mean its not a crime or shouldn't be prevented.  Someone being killed is bad whether its because of hate, or for property.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was not retarded it was to prove a point.  Why do we need to know why a crime is committed when a crime is committed?  The same penalty should be imposed on the same crimes regardless of "reason".
Click to expand...


Go here and look around.  When people look at hate crimes the thought is "omg, its a thought crime, we can't punish for things that people think!"

Actually we do.  And have for hundreds of years.  Its called Mens Rea and is an old and complicated legal doctrine.  Here is a short legal primer for you.

Mens rea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Mr. President

Justification is seperate from reason.  If it was self defense It is NOT A CRIME and therefore can not be held under the same light.


----------



## Mr. President

Nik said:


> Mr. President said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not "his fault".  I knew someone was going to say something retarded like this.  Just because a crime isn't predicated on hate doesn't mean its not a crime or shouldn't be prevented.  Someone being killed is bad whether its because of hate, or for property.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was not retarded it was to prove a point.  Why do we need to know why a crime is committed when a crime is committed?  The same penalty should be imposed on the same crimes regardless of "reason".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go here and look around.  When people look at hate crimes the thought is "omg, its a thought crime, we can't punish for things that people think!"
> 
> Actually we do.  And have for hundreds of years.  Its called Mens Rea and is an old and complicated legal doctrine.  Here is a short legal primer for you.
> 
> Mens rea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


My Friend you can talk to me but not down to me.  You can not have freedom of religion and prosecute for a mindset.  You can not have freedom of speech and prosecute for an opinion verbalized.


----------



## JBeukema

LaLinda75 said:


> *Gang fights are NOT about hate - they are about TERRITORY!*



Race crimes are not about hate, they are about TERRITORY

THIS country is for my race- get the fuck out.


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Justification is seperate from reason.  If it was self defense It is NOT A CRIME and therefore can not be held under the same light.



Justification is NOT separate from reason.  Every justification for a crime requires that one give a reason as to why one committed the crime.  If you shoot someone in the face in self defense, you still committed a crime.  Its just we let you off because you have a justification for committing said crime, and we don't punish you for it.  

The justification of self defense *requires knowing what one was thinking*.


----------



## KittenKoder

Here is another angle. Perhaps some crimes require more "hate" than others, we'll assume that it's true in spite of the obvious fact that all crime has hate involved in some way. But for arguments sake, we'll assume that some crimes the intent is hatred. Why do specific "classes" of people need to be detailed?


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. President said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was not retarded it was to prove a point.  Why do we need to know why a crime is committed when a crime is committed?  The same penalty should be imposed on the same crimes regardless of "reason".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go here and look around.  When people look at hate crimes the thought is "omg, its a thought crime, we can't punish for things that people think!"
> 
> Actually we do.  And have for hundreds of years.  Its called Mens Rea and is an old and complicated legal doctrine.  Here is a short legal primer for you.
> 
> Mens rea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My Friend you can talk to me but not down to me.  You can not have freedom of religion and prosecute for a mindset.  You can not have freedom of speech and prosecute for an opinion verbalized.
Click to expand...


Nobody is prosecuting for an opinion verbalized.  They are prosecuting for a motive, a reason behind the crime.  And yes, I am talking down to you.  The law is complicated, as a layperson your not expected to know it, but to anyone trained in the law the idea that mental elements can't be part of a crime is just obviously incorrect.


----------



## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> Here is another angle. Perhaps some crimes require more "hate" than others, we'll assume that it's true in spite of the obvious fact that all crime has hate involved in some way. But for arguments sake, we'll assume that some crimes the intent is hatred. Why do specific "classes" of people need to be detailed?



Yes the "obvious fact" that I've debunked.


----------



## Mr. President

Nik said:


> Justification is NOT separate from reason.  Every justification for a crime requires that one give a reason as to why one committed the crime.  If you shoot someone in the face in self defense, you still committed a crime.  Its just we let you off because you have a justification for committing said crime, and we don't punish you for it.
> 
> The justification of self defense *requires knowing what one was thinking*.



No justification of self defense requires knowing the variables and determining if a defensive posture was acceptable and if the level of defense was legal.  What the person was thinking has nothing to do with it.


----------



## KittenKoder

Nik said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is another angle. Perhaps some crimes require more "hate" than others, we'll assume that it's true in spite of the obvious fact that all crime has hate involved in some way. But for arguments sake, we'll assume that some crimes the intent is hatred. Why do specific "classes" of people need to be detailed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the "obvious fact" that I've debunked.
Click to expand...


Really, how many people do you know can kill someone they love without a logical and legal reason?


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Justification is NOT separate from reason.  Every justification for a crime requires that one give a reason as to why one committed the crime.  If you shoot someone in the face in self defense, you still committed a crime.  Its just we let you off because you have a justification for committing said crime, and we don't punish you for it.
> 
> The justification of self defense *requires knowing what one was thinking*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No justification of self defense requires knowing the variables and determining if a defensive posture was acceptable and if the level of defense was legal.  What the person was thinking has nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...


*sigh*

Criminal Law Capsule Summary - Chapter 8



> The privilege of self-defense is *based on reasonable appearances,* rather than on objective reality. Thus, a person is justified in using force to protect himself if he subjectively believes that such force is necessary to repel an imminent unlawful attack, even if appearances prove to be false.


----------



## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is another angle. Perhaps some crimes require more "hate" than others, we'll assume that it's true in spite of the obvious fact that all crime has hate involved in some way. But for arguments sake, we'll assume that some crimes the intent is hatred. Why do specific "classes" of people need to be detailed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the "obvious fact" that I've debunked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really, how many people do you know can kill someone they love without a logical and legal reason?
Click to expand...


Oh.  My.  God.  

Ok.  A few things.

1)  I don't know anyone who can kill someone they love, or hate.  I tend not to be friends with murderers.
2)  There are more emotions than love and hate.  Merely because one does not love someone does not mean one hates them.
3)  How bout you read the thread.  We've gone over this before.  Someone said the exact same bullshit you just said.


----------



## KittenKoder

Nik said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the "obvious fact" that I've debunked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really, how many people do you know can kill someone they love without a logical and legal reason?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh.  My.  God.
> 
> Ok.  A few things.
> 
> 1)  I don't know anyone who can kill someone they love, or hate.  I tend not to be friends with murderers.
> 2)  There are more emotions than love and hate.  Merely because one does not love someone does not mean one hates them.
> 3)  How bout you read the thread.  We've gone over this before.  Someone said the exact same bullshit you just said.
Click to expand...


Aah ... but here's where your argument fails, you have to hate something to destroy it, period, you cannot have any other feeling towards it. There are other emotions, but hatred isn't even just an emotion, it's a point of view. One could argue that hate and love are not even emotions at all but are instead the source of different emotions. As for not knowing any, you know them from the news, reports, police documentation, court transcripts. Just because you don't meet people in person does not mean you don't know them. You know me, yet you have never met me in person, though you don't know me as well as you think.

Many say what I have said, I said it twice in this thread myself. You cannot care about what you destroy in any way, especially life, that has been proven time and again. But you avoid the real question: Why does it have to specify only a few groups instead of just saying all crime?


----------



## Mr. President

Nik said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Criminal Law Capsule Summary - Chapter 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The privilege of self-defense is *based on reasonable appearances,* rather than on objective reality. Thus, a person is justified in using force to protect himself if he subjectively believes that such force is necessary to repel an imminent unlawful attack, even if appearances prove to be false.
Click to expand...


I understand your copy and paste techniques may not be all the way there



> The Code prohibits the use of deadly force by a deadly aggressor, i.e., one who, "with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter."



The law says the person can not be the agressor which is the automatic qualify or disqualifier for self defense.  Situation first is what decides if the person is in a state of defense or offense not a mindset.  Please remove your head from your fourth point of contact. 

You may punch me and be the agressor but if I am not afraid of you and the only the that registers in my mind is that now I can whip you legally the self defense plee will still hold because the court doesn't know what I was thinking only that I was not the agressor.  You freakin google lawyer.


----------



## Nik

KittenKoder said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really, how many people do you know can kill someone they love without a logical and legal reason?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh.  My.  God.
> 
> Ok.  A few things.
> 
> 1)  I don't know anyone who can kill someone they love, or hate.  I tend not to be friends with murderers.
> 2)  There are more emotions than love and hate.  Merely because one does not love someone does not mean one hates them.
> 3)  How bout you read the thread.  We've gone over this before.  Someone said the exact same bullshit you just said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Aah ... but here's where your argument fails, you have to hate something to destroy it, period, you cannot have any other feeling towards it.
Click to expand...


Really?  So when there is a mosquito on my arm and I want to kill it so it doesn't bite me, I hate it?  Hate?  Really?  

Yeah, no.  You are an overly simplistic emotional wreck.  You can want to destroy things without hating them.  



> There are other emotions, but hatred isn't even just an emotion, it's a point of view. One could argue that hate and love are not even emotions at all but are instead the source of different emotions. As for not knowing any, you know them from the news, reports, police documentation, court transcripts. Just because you don't meet people in person does not mean you don't know them. You know me, yet you have never met me in person, though you don't know me as well as you think.
> 
> Many say what I have said, I said it twice in this thread myself. You cannot care about what you destroy in any way, especially life, that has been proven time and again. But you avoid the real question: Why does it have to specify only a few groups instead of just saying all crime?



Nobody is saying that they care about the victims.  They don't.  But I don't care about Billy Bob Thornton.  If he died I might go "hmm.  That sucks" for a brief millisecond, but I really don't care.  And its really not out of hate.


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> The law says the person can not be the agressor which is the automatic qualify or disqualifier for self defense.  Situation first is what decides if the person is in a state of defense or offense not a mindset.  Please remove your head from your fourth point of contact.



No, its not.  If you believe someone is pointing a gun at you, and they actually aren't (i.e. aren't an aggressor), and you shoot them, you could still claim self defense.  



> You may punch me and be the agressor but if I am not afraid of you and the only the that registers in my mind is that now I can whip you legally the self defense plee will still hold because the court doesn't know what I was thinking only that I was not the agressor.  You freakin google lawyer.



No.  Thats not how self defense works.  You don't get to punch someone just because they punched you first.  As the link said, you have to feel that there is an imminent threat.  

And no, I'm not a google lawyer.  I'm merely finding proof for you, and even when I do you can't comprehend it.  I know your not trained in the law, and thats fine, but at least be halfway literate to understand what lexis is telling you.


----------



## Sky Dancer

KittenKoder said:


> Here is another angle. Perhaps some crimes require more "hate" than others, we'll assume that it's true in spite of the obvious fact that all crime has hate involved in some way. But for arguments sake, we'll assume that some crimes the intent is hatred. Why do specific "classes" of people need to be detailed?



Do you deny the existence of hate crime inspite of the evidence?  This isn't personal hate, it's hatred of a class of individuals--minorities which is why they are spelled out in hate crime law.


----------



## Mr. President

Nik said:


> No, its not.  If you believe someone is pointing a gun at you, and they actually aren't (i.e. aren't an aggressor), and you shoot them, you could still claim self defense.
> 
> 
> 
> You  could claim it but the chances of it standing are slim to none.  It would depend on the physical surroundings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.  Thats not how self defense works.  You don't get to punch someone just because they punched you first.  As the link said, you have to feel that there is an imminent threat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can say thats what I felt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no, I'm not a google lawyer.  I'm merely finding proof for you, and even when I do you can't comprehend it.  I know your not trained in the law, and thats fine, but at least be halfway literate to understand what lexis is telling you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I dont have to be trained in law to comprehend it.  You seem to not understand the legality being open for interpretation by a jury of peers.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> I should be concerned about an arson wave in 1993?  How long ago was that, Sky?
> 
> *Gays/lesbians are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ASSAULTED BY A DOMESTIC PARTNER THAN TO BE A VICTIM OF A BIAS CRIME.
> 
> Why isn't that your focus, if you sincerely care about violence against gays/lesbians? *



Because this thread is about hate crime, NOT domestic violence, not matter how much you derail it.  You want to discuss domestic violence?  Start another thread.

How do you know that I am unconcerned about domestic violence in the gay and lesbian community?  You don't.  I just finished a 40 hour course in domestic violence training.

You're using logical fallacy.  The inference is if I stick to the topic instead of digressing into domestic violence discussion, my opinion about the need for hate crime legislation is somehow diminished.  You argue I don't 'care' about gays and lesbians or I would be taking your detours about domestic violence instead of sticking to the topic of hate crime.

You deny the impact of hate crime on minorties communities and the need to allocate resources to prosecute such crimes.  You also object to the existence of hate crime law, you minimize its validity and import and you object to gays and lesbians being included in hate crime law.    

Stick to the issue.

Do you even know any gays or lesbians who've been victims of hate crime?  I doubt it.    Do you tell them they should be more concerned about gay and lesbian domestic violence instead of the crime they were victims of?

You're a hate crime denier--just like a Holocaust denier.


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not.  If you believe someone is pointing a gun at you, and they actually aren't (i.e. aren't an aggressor), and you shoot them, you could still claim self defense.
> 
> 
> 
> You  could claim it but the chances of it standing are slim to none.  It would depend on the physical surroundings
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually its a pretty good defense.  Its a defense cops use all the time.  And yes it depends on the physical surroundings, as WELL as other evidence to what the defendant is thinking.
> 
> It is based on what the defendant was thinking.  Do they use evidence from the real world to infer what the defendant was thinking?  Yes.  Of course.  But the actual justification is what was in his mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no, I'm not a google lawyer.  I'm merely finding proof for you, and even when I do you can't comprehend it.  I know your not trained in the law, and thats fine, but at least be halfway literate to understand what lexis is telling you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I dont have to be trained in law to comprehend it.  You seem to not understand the legality being open for interpretation by a jury of peers.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


The legality isn't open for interpretation.  Juries don't get to interpret law.  Thats the job for the judge.  Don't pretend you know shit when you don't.  Your not trained in law, thats fine, but don't go around making all these assertions when you don't know fuck all about what you are talking about.


----------



## Sky Dancer

On May 6, the body of Amancio Corrales, a Yuma, Ariz., female impersonator, was found in the Colorado River, bludgeoned to death. 

On July 9, five days after St. John's Reformed United Church of Christ in Middlebrook, Va., endorsed same-sex marriages, someone wrote "UCC Sinners" and "Gays Lovers" in the church before setting it afire. 

On July 24, the Heart Rock gay nightclub in Brownsville, Texas, was vandalized and set on fire. 

On July 25, a gay couple returned to their home near Orlando, Fla., to find it in flames and the words "Die Fag" spray-painted on the steps. 

*"Gays have increasingly challenged the status quo, most recently with their support and encouragement of gay marriage statutes around the country," said Northeastern University Professor Jack Levin, an expert on hate crimes. "The result has been to infuriate homophobic Americans who believe that marriage is, by definition, a union of husband and wife and who are convinced that the legalization of gay marriage weakens the traditional marital bond." *SPLCenter.org: Wave of Anti-Gay Hate Crimes Reported


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> On May 6, the body of Amancio Corrales, a Yuma, Ariz., female impersonator, was found in the Colorado River, bludgeoned to death.



Frankly, I'd start with her boyfriend.  Bludgeoning is a crime of passion, and I suspect it was a lover who did it.

What evidence do you have that this was a *hate crime*?

This is exactly my point.  Just because a victim is gay doesn't mean that the motive was gender bias.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> On May 6, the body of Amancio Corrales, a Yuma, Ariz., female impersonator, was found in the Colorado River, bludgeoned to death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I'd start with her boyfriend.  Bludgeoning is a crime of passion, and I suspect it was a lover who did it.
> 
> What evidence do you have that this was a *hate crime*?
> 
> This is exactly my point.  Just because a victim is gay doesn't mean that the motive was gender bias.
Click to expand...


Bludgeoning is a crime of passion?  What the fuck?


----------



## Sky Dancer

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> On May 6, the body of Amancio Corrales, a Yuma, Ariz., female impersonator, was found in the Colorado River, bludgeoned to death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I'd start with her boyfriend.  Bludgeoning is a crime of passion, and I suspect it was a lover who did it.
> 
> What evidence do you have that this was a *hate crime*?
> 
> This is exactly my point.  Just because a victim is gay doesn't mean that the motive was gender bias.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bludgeoning is a crime of passion?  What the fuck?
Click to expand...



In the world according to catzmeow any gay or lesbian who is the victim of any crime of violence has only another gay or lesbian to blame.

I have provided a ton of evidence about the reality of hate crime and she still denies it.  I suppose she thinks the killers of Matthew Shepard were a couple of lesbians. 
All those gays and lesbians who die in hate crimes  get what they ask for by daring to advocate for equal rights.



In a related story:

_"Hate crime cases involving anti-gay sentiment shot up in Santa Clara County last year, a striking increase that a leading prosecutor attributes to controversy over Proposition 8, the voter-approved ban on gay marriage.

Anti-gay incidents accounted for more than half of hate-crime cases last year &#8212; 56 percent &#8212; a big jump from only 15 percent in 2007. There were 14 anti-gay cases out of 25 hate-crime cases in 2008, compared with only 3 out of 20 in 2007. 

"My belief from having done this work for many years is that surges in types of hate incidents are linked to the headlines and controversies of the day,'' said Deputy District Attorney Jay Boyarsky, who is assigned to monitor hate crimes. "Marriage equality and Proposition 8 have been in the news, and we have seen an increase in gay-bashing.''_
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11921999?nclick_check=1


----------



## catzmeow

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> On May 6, the body of Amancio Corrales, a Yuma, Ariz., female impersonator, was found in the Colorado River, bludgeoned to death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I'd start with her boyfriend.  Bludgeoning is a crime of passion, and I suspect it was a lover who did it.
> 
> What evidence do you have that this was a *hate crime*?
> 
> This is exactly my point.  Just because a victim is gay doesn't mean that the motive was gender bias.
Click to expand...


So, I did my own research.  IN this case, the defendant, Ruben Solorio Valenzuela, was sentenced to MANSLAUGHTER in this murder, and received 8 years.  

Amancio Corrales solicited the perpetrator in a bar in 2005, posing as a woman, and then revealed his gender when he was en flagrante delicto with the perpetrator.  The court found that Ruben Solorio Valenzuela never set out to beat a gay man, but was enraged by Corrales' actions, and beat him to death.  This was a crime of passion, not a crime of gender bias *(at least, that was the finding of the court).  An arrest wasn't made until late 2007, and the perpetrator wasn't sentenced until August, 2008.

Do you actually consider this a "hate crime"?  And if so, why?

Interestingly enough, this was determined to be a "hate crime" by gay rights advocates before a suspect/motive were even established in the case, back in 2005.

Curiouser and curiouser.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> On May 6, the body of Amancio Corrales, a Yuma, Ariz., female impersonator, was found in the Colorado River, bludgeoned to death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I'd start with her boyfriend.  Bludgeoning is a crime of passion, and I suspect it was a lover who did it.
> 
> What evidence do you have that this was a *hate crime*?
> 
> This is exactly my point.  Just because a victim is gay doesn't mean that the motive was gender bias.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, I did my own research.  IN this case, the defendant, Ruben Solorio Valenzuela, was sentenced to MANSLAUGHTER in this murder, and received 8 years.
> 
> Amancio Corrales solicited him in a bar, posing as a woman, and then revealed his gender when he was en flagrante delicto with the perpetrator.  The court found that Ruben Solorio Valenzuela never set out to beat a gay man, but was enraged by Corrales' actions, and beat him to death.  This was a crime of passion, not a crime of gender bias *(at least, that was the finding of the court).
> 
> Do you actually consider this a "hate crime"?  And if so, why?
> 
> Interestingly enough, this was determined to be a "hate crime" by gay rights advocates before a suspect/motive were even established in the case, back in 2005.
> 
> Curiouser and curiouser.
Click to expand...


No, it's not technically a hate crime.  However, the sexual orientation of the victim of murder was a mitgating factor in Valenzuela's rage.  Do  you consider this crime justified?  Maybe Valenzuela should have been freed in your opinion.  After all, Corrales should never have been dressing as a woman.


----------



## Nik

Link?


----------



## catzmeow

Interestingly enough, Corrales' name was used as a title for hate crimes legislation, though his case was not prosecuted as a hate crime, because it WASN'T ONE.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Link?



Do your own research, Nik.  it will be good for you in your future law career to get a lot of practice.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Interestingly enough, Corrales' name was used as a title for hate crimes legislation, though his case was not prosecuted as a hate crime, because it WASN'T ONE.



Re-read this sentence again.  Do you see the stupidity inherent in it?


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> On May 6, the body of Amancio Corrales, a Yuma, Ariz., female impersonator, was found in the Colorado River, bludgeoned to death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I'd start with her boyfriend.  Bludgeoning is a crime of passion, and I suspect it was a lover who did it.
> 
> What evidence do you have that this was a *hate crime*?
> 
> This is exactly my point.  Just because a victim is gay doesn't mean that the motive was gender bias.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, *I did my own research.*  IN this case, the defendant, Ruben Solorio Valenzuela, was sentenced to MANSLAUGHTER in this murder, and received 8 years.
> 
> Amancio Corrales solicited the perpetrator in a bar in 2005, posing as a woman, and then revealed his gender when he was en flagrante delicto with the perpetrator.  The court found that Ruben Solorio Valenzuela never set out to beat a gay man, but was enraged by Corrales' actions, and beat him to death.  This was a crime of passion, not a crime of gender bias *(at least, that was the finding of the court).  An arrest wasn't made until late 2007, and the perpetrator wasn't sentenced until August, 2008.
> 
> Do you actually consider this a "hate crime"?  And if so, why?
> 
> Interestingly enough, this was determined to be a "hate crime" by gay rights advocates before a suspect/motive were even established in the case, back in 2005.
> 
> Curiouser and curiouser.
Click to expand...


Link please.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do your own research, Nik.  it will be good for you in your future law career to get a lot of practice.
Click to expand...


Lmfao.  No.  I'm not doing research to prove YOUR point.  You asserted it, now you get to provide evidence for it.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> *No, it's not technically a hate crime.*




Then WHY IN THE FUCK DID YOU BRING IT UP AS EVIDENCE OF ONGOING HATE CRIMES?

You're so sloppy, Sky.



> However, the sexual orientation of the victim of murder was a mitgating factor in Valenzuela's rage.  Do  you consider this crime justified?  Maybe Valenzuela should have been freed in your opinion.  After all, Corrales should never have been dressing as a woman.



No.  IN fact, I consider this an egregious miscarriage of justice.  Exactly why should Corrales's killer do less time than a suspect in a "hate crime"?

It's cases like this that illustrate, precisely, the stupidity of this act.  Corrales DIED in a way that is every bit as tragic and traumatizing to his community as any so-called hate crime.  ALL SERIOUS CRIMES HAVE A SERIOUS IMPACT.  Pretending otherwise is simply absurd and sad.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *No, it's not technically a hate crime.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then WHY IN THE FUCK DID YOU BRING IT UP AS EVIDENCE OF ONGOING HATE CRIMES?
> 
> You're so sloppy, Sky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, the sexual orientation of the victim of murder was a mitgating factor in Valenzuela's rage.  Do  you consider this crime justified?  Maybe Valenzuela should have been freed in your opinion.  After all, Corrales should never have been dressing as a woman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  IN fact, I consider this an egregious miscarriage of justice.  Exactly why should Corrales's killer do less time than a suspect in a "hate crime"?
> 
> It's cases like this that illustrate, precisely, the stupidity of this act.
Click to expand...



The link you provided was from a transgender site and it says that Corrales _may have been _the victim of a hate crime.  My link was from the Southern Poverty Law Center who tracks crime with bias motivation.  Clearly, the bias of the perpetrator caused him to kill the victim.

Legally, and technically this crime may have not made the bar as a hate crime.  Testimony of the perpetrator is that when he learned that the victim was a man, that is what enraged him and caused him to beat the victim to death.  He could have just said no thanks, I want to have sex with women.  There is bias involved in this violent crime.

The perpetrator did not intend to pick up a woman, but he picked up a transvestite and that's what enraged him.

I'm sure you think this is a complete miscarriage of justice.  You would prefer that killers of transvestites go free.

You're losing it catz.  Now you're screaming.  What's next?  Slurs, threats of violence?  Want to talk about kidney punching me and sending me to the hospital again?  Get a grip.  No wonder you support hate crime law.  

Is this a miscarriage of justice because the perp should have been allowed free speech?

You continue to completely ignore other evidence I offered such as the wave of hate related arson in Sacramento.  These are not just simple crimes.  They are crimes of terror.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky brought up Mr. Corrales's murder as evidence of ongoing hate crimes.  It's Sky's job to prove that it WAS, in fact, a hate crime.  It's not my job to support Sky's case for her, though when she makes it this easy, it is kind of fun.

I gave you plenty to go on.  Feel free to use google.


As opposed to Nik and Sky, I use actual FACTS in my posts, enough so that someone can do a google and fact check me.

Perhaps Sky should consider checking her facts BEFORE posting.

Thanks for playing, though.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Legally, he may not have been.  But testimony of the perpetrator is that when he learned that the victim was a man, that enraged him.



But that, strictly speaking, isn't a crime of gender bias, as defined by the hate crimes legislation, is it?


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Re-read this sentence again.  Do you see the stupidity inherent in it?



Absolutely.  Advocacy groups made Corrales a poster child for hate crimes before even knowing how or why he died, simply on the basis of his sexual orientation.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Sky brought up Mr. Corrales's murder as evidence of ongoing hate crimes.  It's Sky's job to prove that it WAS, in fact, a hate crime.  It's not my job to support Sky's case for her, though when she makes it this easy, it is kind of fun.



Umm, no.  I'm not asking you to support her case, I'm asking you to support YOUR assertion that it was NOT a hate crime.  



> I gave you plenty to go on.  Feel free to use google.



With the dishonesty and frankly, just rampant stupidity in your posts I'm not confident that you would be able to interpret sites to come to a valid conclusion that it wasn't a hate crime, if thats in fact the case.  So, no, I'm not going to do research to support YOUR assertion.  Do it yourself you lazy fuck.  



> As opposed to Nik and Sky, I use actual FACTS in my posts, enough so that someone can do a google and fact check me.
> 
> Perhaps Sky should consider checking her facts BEFORE posting.
> 
> Thanks for playing, though.



Right.  Facts that you won't link too.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Re-read this sentence again.  Do you see the stupidity inherent in it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  Advocacy groups made Corrales a poster child for hate crimes before even knowing how or why he died, simply on the basis of his sexual orientation.
Click to expand...


Fail.

Try again?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Legally, he may not have been.  But testimony of the perpetrator is that when he learned that the victim was a man, that enraged him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that, strictly speaking, isn't a crime of gender bias, as defined by the hate crimes legislation, is it?
Click to expand...


Thats why he wasn't charged under it.  And why they tried to create it after he died.  

Get it yet?


----------



## Mr. President

Nik said:


> Mr. President said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> You  could claim it but the chances of it standing are slim to none.  It would depend on the physical surroundings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually its a pretty good defense.  Its a defense cops use all the time.  And yes it depends on the physical surroundings, as WELL as other evidence to what the defendant is thinking.
> 
> It is based on what the defendant was thinking.  Do they use evidence from the real world to infer what the defendant was thinking?  Yes.  Of course.  But the actual justification is what was in his mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont have to be trained in law to comprehend it.  You seem to not understand the legality being open for interpretation by a jury of peers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The legality isn't open for interpretation.  Juries don't get to interpret law.  Thats the job for the judge.  Don't pretend you know shit when you don't.  Your not trained in law, thats fine, but don't go around making all these assertions when you don't know fuck all about what you are talking about.
Click to expand...


You freakin retard.  If there is no real world evidence there is NO EVIDENCE. The Jury can not interpret the law but they can interpret testimony and do and the interpretation of the testimony in conjunction with the law will lead them to their decision.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Legally, he may not have been.  But testimony of the perpetrator is that when he learned that the victim was a man, that enraged him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that, strictly speaking, isn't a crime of gender bias, as defined by the hate crimes legislation, is it?
Click to expand...


Boy are you stupid.


----------



## Nik

Mr. President said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. President said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually its a pretty good defense.  Its a defense cops use all the time.  And yes it depends on the physical surroundings, as WELL as other evidence to what the defendant is thinking.
> 
> It is based on what the defendant was thinking.  Do they use evidence from the real world to infer what the defendant was thinking?  Yes.  Of course.  But the actual justification is what was in his mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The legality isn't open for interpretation.  Juries don't get to interpret law.  Thats the job for the judge.  Don't pretend you know shit when you don't.  Your not trained in law, thats fine, but don't go around making all these assertions when you don't know fuck all about what you are talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You freakin retard.  If there is no real world evidence there is NO EVIDENCE.
Click to expand...


No shit sherlock.  But the evidence isn't the crime.  The crime (or justification for a crime) is the persons THOUGHTS.   

Surely even you can understand the difference between what makes something a crime, and what makes something evidence.  Its not a crime to hold a gun, but finding ones fingerprints on a gun could well be evidence.  I can't make it any simpler for you.



> The Jury can not interpret the law but they can interpret testimony and do and the interpretation of the testimony in conjunction with the law will lead them to their decision.



I see you've done some research and backtracked your asinine assertion that juries interpret law.  Yes, you are right that juries interpret testimony and decide the facts of the case.  One of the facts they decide can be, depending on the case, the thoughts/mindset/mental state of individuals.  Then they use the law to figure out what said mental states mean.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky brought up Mr. Corrales's murder as evidence of ongoing hate crimes.  It's Sky's job to prove that it WAS, in fact, a hate crime.  It's not my job to support Sky's case for her, though when she makes it this easy, it is kind of fun.
> 
> I gave you plenty to go on.  Feel free to use google.
> 
> 
> As opposed to Nik and Sky, I use actual FACTS in my posts, enough so that someone can do a google and fact check me.
> 
> Perhaps Sky should consider checking her facts BEFORE posting.
> 
> Thanks for playing, though.



Bias oriented violence.  I provided evidence of that.   Get a clue.  It was one crime listed among many on the SPLC website.  Educate yourself.


Ruben Solario was arrested on May 23, 2007, as the result of an anonymous tip10), and booked in Yuma County Jail on one count of second degree murder in Corrales' death.11) Solario had prior brushes with the law, including bein convicted of assault three times, disorderly conduct twice, criminal damages twice, and human smuggling once. He was also accused of domestic violence three times. 

Follow-up investigations revealed that Solorio had confessed to family members soon after the murder how he had killed Corrales. Solorio fled to Mexico on he night of the murder and remained there for three months. Court records indicate that Solorio was not under the influence of drugs or alcohol, and investigators said it was not known whther Solorio an dCorrales knew each other. Investigators also said it was not known if Corrales and Solorio knew each other, but believe they did not, and that they did not have evidence to show Corrales' murder was a hate crime. 

On May 31, 2007, a grand jury indicted charges of manslaughter and abandoning a body.14) 
http://www.lgbthatecrimes.org/doku.php/amancio-corrales

As usual, catz uses the nitpick logical fallacy.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Thats why he wasn't charged under it.  And why they tried to create it after he died.
> 
> Get it yet?



Wrong.  he wouldn't have been charged under it, anyway, because it would not have applied to his case.

There was no intent to attack a gay man purely for being gay.  That's what separates a hate crime from the murder of Mr. Corrales, which was a crime of passion (manslaughter).

Here's the link since you appear to have difficulty finding facts.  

I hold out no hopes for you practicing law anytime soon based upon your mad research skillz.

Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Boy are you stupid.





I'm not the one who posted a case that was not a hate crime to bolster why we need hate crimes legislation.



Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> [
> Bias oriented violence.  I provided evidence of that.   Get a clue.  It was one crime listed among many on the SPLC website.  Educate yourself.



Except that SPLC identified it as a hate crime *in 2005, BEFORE A SUSPECT OR MOTIVE WAS EVEN IDENTIFIED*.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> Bias oriented violence.  I provided evidence of that.   Get a clue.  It was one crime listed among many on the SPLC website.  Educate yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that SPLC identified it as a hate crime *in 2005, BEFORE A SUSPECT OR MOTIVE WAS EVEN IDENTIFIED*.
Click to expand...


This was a crime of violence and bias played a role.  The court did not have enough evidence to call it a hate crime.

Do you think the victim died because the perpetrator loved transvestites?


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> *Investigators also said it was not known if Corrales and Solorio knew each other, but believe they did not, and that they did not have evidence to show Corrales' murder was a hate crime. *



YOu posted this case as evidence of an ongoing hate crime problem.  Except--it wasn't a hate crime.  Nor would it have been prosecuted as a hate crime under the proposed Matthew Shepard legislation.

The Corrales case is a great example of why this legislation is full of holes in practice.  It sounds great in theory, and it makes fuzzy heads like Sky feel safer, but in practice, it doesn't work.

Tell me, Sky.  Why should the man who killed Corrales serve less time than someone who murders a gay man in a "hate crime"?


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Boy are you stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not the one who posted a case that was not a hate crime to bolster why we need hate crimes legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun
Click to expand...


This was a bias crime.  Get over yourself.  Anyone with half an ounce of human decency can see the obvious.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> This was a crime of violence and bias played a role.  The court did not have enough evidence to call it a hate crime.
> 
> Do you think the victim died because the perpetrator loved transvestites?



NO.  The victim died because he misrepresented himself to the perpetrator as a female.  I'm not justifying the murderer, I find an 8 year sentence for this crime to be an egregious offense against justice, but the fact remains that the perpetrator in this instance DID NOT SET OUT TO MURDER A GAY MAN in May, 2005.  He set out to pick up a woman.

This crime could not have been prosecuted as a hate crime EVEN UNDER THE MATTHEW SHEPARD legislation.  But it sure as hell was a crime of hate and passion, wasn't it?

And yet, that didn't stop you from posting it as evidence that hate crimes legislation is needed, did it?

Even though this case wouldn't even qualify for that kind of prosecution.

THis is a great example of your sloppy thinking, posting, and evidence gathering.

It's also a great example of the sloppy way in which crimes may be misidentified as hate crimes by SPLC and others who have a strong desire to SEE HATE CRIMES whenever there is a gay/lesbian victim.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Investigators also said it was not known if Corrales and Solorio knew each other, but believe they did not, and that they did not have evidence to show Corrales' murder was a hate crime. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOu posted this case as evidence of an ongoing hate crime problem.  Except--it wasn't a hate crime.  Nor would it have been prosecuted as a hate crime under the proposed Matthew Shepard legislation.
> 
> The Corrales case is a great example of why this legislation is full of holes in practice.  It sounds great in theory, and it makes fuzzy heads like Sky feel safer, but in practice, it doesn't work.
> 
> Tell me, Sky.  Why should the man who killed Corrales serve less time than someone who murders a gay man in a "hate crime"?
Click to expand...


The court ruled it was NOT a hate crime.  That doesn't mean that hatred toward transvestites was not a factor.   It means the prosectutor did not present enough evidence for the court to technically call this a hate crime.

I'm crystal clear on where I stand and where you stand on this issue.  No fuzzy headedness at all.  Keep ignoring the other evidence, it speaks volumes.  Stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no hate crimes.

Say it often.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> This was a bias crime.  Get over yourself.  Anyone with half an ounce of human decency can see the obvious.



No, it was a crime of passion, no different than a rape or any other violent act between heterosexuals.

If it were a crime of bias, it would have started out with the perpetrator LOOKING TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE SIMPLY BECAUSE THE VICTIM WAS GAY.

That is a hate crime, a crime committed with the motive of attacking a specific group.  But, that wasn't this perpetrator's motive.

YOU POSTED MISINFORMATION.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why he wasn't charged under it.  And why they tried to create it after he died.
> 
> Get it yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  he wouldn't have been charged under it, anyway, because it would not have applied to his case.
Click to expand...


Oy.  No, apparently you don't get it.  



> There was no intent to attack a gay man purely for being gay.  That's what separates a hate crime from the murder of Mr. Corrales, which was a crime of passion (manslaughter).
> 
> Here's the link since you appear to have difficulty finding facts.
> 
> I hold out no hopes for you practicing law anytime soon based upon your mad research skillz.
> 
> Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun



Wow.  You asserted that things were in fact true, when all your link says it that things seem to be unclear.  

We decide between guilty and not guilty, not guilty and innocent.  Its unclear why he killed Amancio.  

And finding things you haven't looked for is necessary to be a good lawyer?  Well thats an odd talent to have.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This was a crime of violence and bias played a role.  The court did not have enough evidence to call it a hate crime.
> 
> Do you think the victim died because the perpetrator loved transvestites?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NO.  The victim died because he misrepresented himself to the perpetrator as a female.  I'm not justifying the murderer, I find an 8 year sentence for this crime to be an egregious offense against justice, but the fact remains that the perpetrator in this instance DID NOT SET OUT TO MURDER A GAY MAN in May, 2005.  He set out to pick up a woman.
> 
> This crime could not have been prosecuted as a hate crime EVEN UNDER THE MATTHEW SHEPARD legislation.  But it sure as hell was a crime of hate and passion, wasn't it?
> 
> And yet, that didn't stop you from posting it as evidence that hate crimes legislation is needed, did it?
> 
> Even though this case wouldn't even qualify for that kind of prosecution.
> 
> THis is a great example of your sloppy thinking, posting, and evidence gathering.
> 
> It's also a great example of the sloppy way in which crimes may be misidentified as hate crimes by SPLC and others who have a strong desire to SEE HATE CRIMES whenever there is a gay/lesbian victim.
Click to expand...


Oh dear, he 'misrepresented himself as a female' and that's why he died.  He died for crossing dressing.  He died for being a transvestite-he may have been someone who wanted to be transsexual.

Is killing transsexuals and transvestites_ because of who they ar_e not hate crime?  That's debateable.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no hate crimes.



Strawman.  I never pretended there were no hate crimes.  However, I see no reason why a perpetrator who sets out to kill a gay man, and the murderer of Mr. Corrales should be treated differently for murdering gay men.

The victims are both still dead.  It causes massive trauma to the community.  The effects are IDENTICAL.

Furthermore, the Corrales case shows how quick some communities are to rush to judgement that a case is a hate crime, when there is NO EVIDENCE for this....years before a suspect is arrested, years before a case goes to court, years before motive is established in the case.

They rush to judgement because they are operating off of a preconceived notion that gays/lesbians are the unwitting victims of heteros.

Mr. Corrales was NOT a hate crime victim, but that didn't stop thousands of people from using his name to further their agenda.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Nik said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why he wasn't charged under it.  And why they tried to create it after he died.
> 
> Get it yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  he wouldn't have been charged under it, anyway, because it would not have applied to his case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oy.  No, apparently you don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was no intent to attack a gay man purely for being gay.  That's what separates a hate crime from the murder of Mr. Corrales, which was a crime of passion (manslaughter).
> 
> Here's the link since you appear to have difficulty finding facts.
> 
> I hold out no hopes for you practicing law anytime soon based upon your mad research skillz.
> 
> Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow.  You asserted that things were in fact true, when all your link says it that things seem to be unclear.
> 
> We decide between guilty and not guilty, not guilty and innocent.  Its unclear why he killed Amancio.
> 
> And finding things you haven't looked for is necessary to be a good lawyer?  Well thats an odd talent to have.
Click to expand...


This gal catz never actually says what her LE job is, yet pretends to be a know-it-all for LE.  I suspect she's a dispatcher or LE secretary and cop wannabe.  Just because she does it with cops doesn't make her an LE 'expert'.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This was a crime of violence and bias played a role.  The court did not have enough evidence to call it a hate crime.
> 
> Do you think the victim died because the perpetrator loved transvestites?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NO.  The victim died because he misrepresented himself to the perpetrator as a female.  I'm not justifying the murderer, I find an 8 year sentence for this crime to be an egregious offense against justice, but the fact remains that the perpetrator in this instance DID NOT SET OUT TO MURDER A GAY MAN in May, 2005.  He set out to pick up a woman.
Click to expand...


Really?  It doesn't say that in the link you posted.  It doesn't say that he killed Amancio because he misrepresented himself.   



> This crime could not have been prosecuted as a hate crime EVEN UNDER THE MATTHEW SHEPARD legislation.  But it sure as hell was a crime of hate and passion, wasn't it?



Actually we don't know what it was.  Facts seem to have been thin, which is why he got off on a plea deal. 



> And yet, that didn't stop you from posting it as evidence that hate crimes legislation is needed, did it?
> 
> Even though this case wouldn't even qualify for that kind of prosecution.
> 
> THis is a great example of your sloppy thinking, posting, and evidence gathering.
> 
> It's also a great example of the sloppy way in which crimes may be misidentified as hate crimes by SPLC and others who have a strong desire to SEE HATE CRIMES whenever there is a gay/lesbian victim.



Well it can contrast your strong desire to not see a hate crime, no matter the facts.

Care to take umbrage with Sky's other posts?  Maybe want to comment on the lesbian who was gang raped?  Or the people who spray painted "fags"?  Think those were just crimes of passion too?


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Oh dear, he 'misrepresented himself as a female' and that's why he died.  He died for crossing dressing.  He died for being a transvestite-he may have been someone who wanted to be transsexual.
> 
> Is killing transsexuals and transvestites_ because of who they ar_e not hate crime?  That's debateable.



Actually, he died because he knowingly solicited a straight hetero man without giving him the crucial information that he had a penis under his dress.

Does that mean that the straight man shouldn't be charged with murder?  NO.  I will not make that claim, ever.  And I think an 8 year sentence is rather horrifying given the brutality of the crime.

But that straight man would never have attacked Mr. Corrales if Mr. Corrales had not solicited him.

Why exactly WOULD a transvestite man solicit a straight man, pretending to be female?  What could possibly be his goal?


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no hate crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strawman.  I never pretended there were no hate crimes.  However, I see no reason why a perpetrator who sets out to kill a gay man, and the murderer of Mr. Corrales should be treated differently for murdering gay men.
> 
> The victims are both still dead.  It causes massive trauma to the community.  The effects are IDENTICAL.
> 
> Furthermore, the Corrales case shows how quick some communities are to rush to judgement that a case is a hate crime, when there is NO EVIDENCE for this....years before a suspect is arrested, years before a case goes to court, years before motive is established in the case.
> 
> They rush to judgement because they are operating off of a preconceived notion that gays/lesbians are the unwitting victims of heteros.
> 
> Mr. Corrales was NOT a hate crime victim, but that didn't stop thousands of people from using his name to further their agenda.
Click to expand...


Actually you don't know that he wasn't.  And yet thats not stopping you from using his name for your agenda.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no hate crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strawman.  I never pretended there were no hate crimes.  However, I see no reason why a perpetrator who sets out to kill a gay man, and the murderer of Mr. Corrales should be treated differently for murdering gay men.
> 
> The victims are both still dead.  It causes massive trauma to the community.  The effects are IDENTICAL.
> 
> Furthermore, the Corrales case shows how quick some communities are to rush to judgement that a case is a hate crime, when there is NO EVIDENCE for this....years before a suspect is arrested, years before a case goes to court, years before motive is established in the case.
> 
> They rush to judgement because they are operating off of a preconceived notion that gays/lesbians are the unwitting victims of heteros.
> 
> Mr. Corrales was NOT a hate crime victim, but that didn't stop thousands of people from using his name to further their agenda.
Click to expand...



This was bias motivated violence.  It's too bad you're so prejudiced against the hate crimes law that you can't see the obvious.  For transvestites and transgendered individuals, Corrales death mattered.

It may not matter to you, but it matters to them and to me.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun
> We decide between guilty and not guilty, not guilty and innocent.  *Its unclear why he killed Amancio.  *



From the link...which seems far from unclear:



> Prosecutor Levi Gunderson acknowledged that Solorio Valenzuela did not plan the alleged murder *but acted suddenly, in the heat of passion resulting from the rage and humiliation he felt when he discovered Corrales was actually a man. *
> Corrales, a 23-year-old gay man, was a cosmetologist who also performed as a female impersonator known as Dalila, impersonating celebrity singers.
> 
> *Corrales was dressed as a woman the night he and Solorio Valenzuela met. After several attempts to fondle Corrales, Solorio Valenzuela realized his mistake and then allegedly stabbed Corrales*.



You know, men hit on me all the time in bars.  And I have found many, many ways to make the point that I"m not interested, or what they are looking for, every single time.

I wonder why Corrales knowingly engaged in sexual contact (fondling) with a straight man without giving him what seems to me to be crucial information.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> This gal catz never actually says what her LE job is, yet pretends to be a know-it-all for LE.  I suspect she's a dispatcher or LE secretary and cop wannabe.  Just because she does it with cops doesn't make her an LE 'expert'.



I will never mention the name of my employer on here, Sky, because I think you are just crazy enough to make my life miserable.  But, thanks for trying.  It's sweet how much time you spend thinking about me.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun
> We decide between guilty and not guilty, not guilty and innocent.  *Its unclear why he killed Amancio.  *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the link...which seems far from unclear:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecutor Levi Gunderson acknowledged that Solorio Valenzuela did not plan the alleged murder *but acted suddenly, in the heat of passion resulting from the rage and humiliation he felt when he discovered Corrales was actually a man. *
> Corrales, a 23-year-old gay man, was a cosmetologist who also performed as a female impersonator known as Dalila, impersonating celebrity singers.
> 
> *Corrales was dressed as a woman the night he and Solorio Valenzuela met. After several attempts to fondle Corrales, Solorio Valenzuela realized his mistake and then allegedly stabbed Corrales*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know, men hit on me all the time in bars.  And I have found many, many ways to make the point that I"m not interested, or what they are looking for, every single time.
> 
> I wonder why Corrales knowingly engaged in sexual contact (fondling) with a straight man without giving him what seems to me to be crucial information.
Click to expand...



Typical BS from you catz.  Are you blaming Corrales for getting murdered?   Is it his fault?

More to the point, as you aptly put out, you have no problem communicating disinterest in an unwanted advance.  Valenzuela should have done the same.

Corrales is not to blame.

But it does illustrate the contempt you have for GLBT individuals.  Keep going.  You're on a roll.

I bet you've never known anyone who was the victim of a hate crime, have you?


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This gal catz never actually says what her LE job is, yet pretends to be a know-it-all for LE.  I suspect she's a dispatcher or LE secretary and cop wannabe.  Just because she does it with cops doesn't make her an LE 'expert'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will never mention the name of my employer on here, Sky, because I think you are just crazy enough to make my life miserable.  But, thanks for trying.  It's sweet how much time you spend thinking about me.
Click to expand...


You don't mention the job, because it's so unimportant.   Who cares where you work.  What is your job title or job classification.  I suspect secretary, or maybe a dispatcher or clerk.  You take dick tation.  You hang out with cops.  Big deal.

Doesn't make you an LE expert, but it does make you full of it.

I know you're not a cop, catz.  You're not an attorney.  You're not a prosecutor, and you're not a probation officer.  You're not a judge.  You're not a social worker, and you're not a counselor.  What does that leave out?

Jail guard, dog catcher?

(I suspect catz will get very quiet now.)


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man pleads guilty to attempted manslaughter of Amancio Corrales | amancio, attempted, corrales - News - YumaSun
> We decide between guilty and not guilty, not guilty and innocent.  *Its unclear why he killed Amancio.  *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the link...which seems far from unclear:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecutor Levi Gunderson acknowledged that Solorio Valenzuela did not plan the alleged murder *but acted suddenly, in the heat of passion resulting from the rage and humiliation he felt when he discovered Corrales was actually a man. *
> Corrales, a 23-year-old gay man, was a cosmetologist who also performed as a female impersonator known as Dalila, impersonating celebrity singers.
> 
> *Corrales was dressed as a woman the night he and Solorio Valenzuela met. After several attempts to fondle Corrales, Solorio Valenzuela realized his mistake and then allegedly stabbed Corrales*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know, men hit on me all the time in bars.  And I have found many, many ways to make the point that I"m not interested, or what they are looking for, every single time.
> 
> I wonder why Corrales knowingly engaged in sexual contact (fondling) with a straight man without giving him what seems to me to be crucial information.
Click to expand...


And what makes you think the prosecutor knew all the facts?


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Typical BS from you catz.  Are you blaming Corrales for getting murdered?   Is it his fault??



I blame his murderer for killing him.  But I blame Corrales for putting himself into a very vulnerable situation.  There is no excuse for stupidity and it can indeed get you killed.


----------



## catzmeow

Nik said:


> And what makes you think the prosecutor knew all the facts?



That's not even a rational response.  How are you liking your spanking, Niki?


----------



## Sky Dancer

A 23-year-old gay man and cosmetologist, Corrales also performed as a female impersonator known as Dalila impersonating famous singers. Corrales lived in Phoenix and performed at a gay bar, Paco Paco, until the weekend he was killed - the same weekend he moved back to Yuma to live with his family.

Murray and Maddox will be in Yuma until Friday. They said they will travel to Phoenix on that day to speak to people Corrales knew there. Murray said they will return to Yuma later this year to finish up.

One thing Murray said he hopes his film brings out is how much love the Corrales family had for Amancio, despite that he was gay.

"His family remained loving and supportive of him," Murray said. "It's clear his death has been devastating and tragic to this family."
Film crew in Yuma for documentary on Corrales murder | yuma, documentary, film - News - YumaSun


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> And what makes you think the prosecutor knew all the facts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not even a rational response.  *How are you liking your spanking, Niki?*
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's a _rational _come back catz.  You lost this argument a long time ago.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> Doesn't make you an LE expert, but it does make you full of it.
> 
> I know you're not a cop, catz.  You're not an attorney.  You're not a prosecutor, and you're not a probation officer.  You're not a judge.  You're not a social worker, and you're not a counselor.  What does that leave out?



I've said enough on this forum that Agna made a quite accurate guess about what I do.

And, what does it really matter?  I've shown quite clearly here that you don't know what you're talking about in your own links.  I enjoy making you look stupid, that's all you need to know.

ANd you are an oh-so-willing accomplice.  Heh.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> You lost this argument a long time ago.



It's cute how you think that, Sky.  A little sad, but cute.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical BS from you catz.  Are you blaming Corrales for getting murdered?   Is it his fault??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I blame his murderer for killing him.  But I blame Corrales for putting himself into a very vulnerable situation.  There is no excuse for stupidity and it can indeed get you killed.
Click to expand...


You're unbelievable.  Thanks for confirming my worst suspicions of you.   I bet you blame rape victims and battered spouses for their beatings too.

You're so perp identified.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You lost this argument a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's cute how you think that, Sky.
Click to expand...


I don't think you're cute at all.  You're deluded.


----------



## Sky Dancer

catzmeow said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't make you an LE expert, but it does make you full of it.
> 
> I know you're not a cop, catz.  You're not an attorney.  You're not a prosecutor, and you're not a probation officer.  You're not a judge.  You're not a social worker, and you're not a counselor.  What does that leave out?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've said enough on this forum that Agna made a quite accurate guess about what I do.
> 
> And, what does it really matter?  I've shown quite clearly here that you don't know what you're talking about in your own links.  I enjoy making you look stupid, that's all you need to know.
> 
> ANd you are an oh-so-willing accomplice.  Heh.
Click to expand...



It matters plenty when you try and pass yourself off as some kind of expert.  You're a fucking secretary, and bullshit artist, not an LE expert.  Go back and take some more dick-tation.

You make yourself look like you are.  A wannabe who hangs out in cop bars.  It's obvious.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're not rational because you don't understand that from the perspective of a victim, all crimes look like hate crimes.  Nor do you understand that from the perspective of prosecution, hate crimes legislation creates protected classes where by just by being a victim/suspect of a specific skin color or sexual orientation, your crime is treated differently from an identical crime on the same day involving similar perpetrators/victims.  That isn't justice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is patently obvious that you are clueless about hate crime.  You're like a Holocaust denier.
Click to expand...


doc godwin says hi, eva.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.
> 
> The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July.  A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire.  Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.
> 
> The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.
> 
> After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.
> 
> Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks.  Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings.  A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found.  Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.
> 
> Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.
> 
> Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.



well, shit, let's rewrite the constitution.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> catz
> 
> You're like a Holocaust denier, only instead of Jews being who you want to hurt, you target gays and lesbians.



what a crock of shit.


----------



## Barb

Sky Dancer said:


> You support hate crime, del?
> 
> I remember your pms.



del got pms? They make pills for that. I used to give them to my boss' son when he had a headache, worked like a charm, and his wife laughed like hell.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Barb said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You support hate crime, del?
> 
> I remember your pms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del got pms? They make pills for that. I used to give them to my boss' son when he had a headache, worked like a charm, and his wife laughed like hell.
Click to expand...


Yes

Del has PMS.  It shows up in his private messages.

You notice he doesn't debate.  Just does drive by one liners.

Then we have catz pretending to be a LE expert but can't say what her job is, lol.  Maybe it's  'secret agent'.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Thanks for the neg rep del--it reads like this:  "dolt, feel free to quote me."


Poor del.


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

What good does this category of crime do? Anyone feel safer from crime? Is society better off? How so? It's a fair assumption that this law doesn't apply across the board to everyone. Meant to placate minority activists and garner votes in those communities. It doesn't stop racial animosity, it leaves out  non-minority  victims of heinous crimes because they aren't a minority.  But other than that, it's a great  idea. Hate crimes  are a superfluous  category that  won't change anything.


----------



## Sky Dancer

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> What good does this category of crime do? Anyone feel safer from crime? Is society better off? How so? It's a fair assumption that this law doesn't apply across the board to everyone. Meant to placate minority activists and garner votes in those communities. It doesn't stop racial animosity, it leaves out  non-minority  victims of heinous crimes because they aren't a minority.  But other than that, it's a great  idea. Hate crimes  are a superfluous  category that  won't change anything.



What good does hate crime law and the Matthew Shepard Act do?  It provides federal funding to local prosecutors for one thing.

Read back and consider the string of hate motivated arsons in Sacremento.  The entire community of Sacramento was affected.    The targets were the NAACP, a Jewish synagogue, an Asian American organization, the home of an asian american activist.

The reason hate crime is in a special category is because it it crime of intimidation that sends a message to the minority community that 'your kind are not welcome'.  Regardless of whether a crime is prosecuted as a hate crime, all citizens should speak out in support of victims and against crimes of bias and intimidation.


----------



## Barb

Sky Dancer said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You support hate crime, del?
> 
> I remember your pms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del got pms? They make pills for that. I used to give them to my boss' son when he had a headache, worked like a charm, and his wife laughed like hell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> Del has PMS.  It shows up in his private messages.
> 
> You notice he doesn't debate.  Just does drive by one liners.
> 
> Then we have catz pretending to be a LE expert but can't say what her job is, lol.  Maybe it's  'secret agent'.
Click to expand...


 Prolly makes coffee and picks up the dry-cleaning for the peeps who wear suits.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Barb said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> del got pms? They make pills for that. I used to give them to my boss' son when he had a headache, worked like a charm, and his wife laughed like hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> Del has PMS.  It shows up in his private messages.
> 
> You notice he doesn't debate.  Just does drive by one liners.
> 
> Then we have catz pretending to be a LE expert but can't say what her job is, lol.  Maybe it's  'secret agent'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Prolly makes coffee and picks up the dry-cleaning for the peeps who wear suits.
Click to expand...



I really don't care what catz job is.  I think it's funny that she claims to be an expert and refuses to state what her job classification is.

She uses the logical fallacy appeal to authority--with herself as the authority.

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: 

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. 
Person A makes claim C about subject S. 
Therefore, C is true.


----------



## catzmeow

Sky Dancer said:


> I really don't care what catz job is.  I think it's funny that she claims to be an expert and refuses to state what her job classification is.
> 
> She uses the logical fallacy appeal to authority--with herself as the authority.
> 
> An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
> 
> Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
> Person A makes claim C about subject S.
> Therefore, C is true.



Actually, on this thread, I've relied primarily on evidence...YOURS.


----------



## KittenKoder

From the recent posts on here lately, I will change to support hate crime legislation as it seems people are still ignorant enough to debate from their myths instead of logic.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> You support hate crime, del?
> 
> I remember your pms.



absolutely, muncher


----------



## Sky Dancer

Why we need hate crime legislation:

"The reporting system for hate crimes is inadequate.  Hate crimes are underreported.  The DOJ study, which surveyed 2,657 law-enforcement agencies, reported a "major information gap" in the data: It estimated that some 37 percent of the agencies that did not submit reports nevertheless had at least one hate crime. Worse yet, roughly 31 percent of the agencies that reported zero hate crimes did, in fact, have at least one; about 6,000 law-enforcement agencies (or one-third of the total of participants) likely dealt with at least one unreported bias crime. All told, the Southern Poverty Law Center estimates that the total number of hate crimes committed annually in America is closer to 50,000 than the 8,000 found in statistics. 

... The underreportage problem becomes acute with people who have reasons not to go to police, including gay men. This occurs on a massive scale in Latino and other immigrant communities, where even legal immigrants are reluctant to contact police out of fear of being deported.

Of all the factors that cause law-enforcement officers to fail to identify and investigate bias crimes, the most significant, the DOJ study's authors found, was the gap between the victims and the police. *The less trust that exists between minorities and their local law enforcement, the greater the likelihood that hate crimes will go unresolved.*

... Other studies have likewise observed that the most common cause of this cascade of crime is the failure of police to proactively bridge the gap between themselves and the victims. The JRSA's Joan Weiss, in earlier research, found that the reluctance of victims to report crimes was significantly higher for hate crimes than for other crimes. The DOJ study reiterates this point: "For a multitude of reasons, hate crime victims are a population that is leery of reporting crimes -- bias or otherwise -- to law enforcement agencies."

*Most hate-crime victims are minorities *in the communities where the crimes occur. In many cases, they have poor English skills and have difficulty asking for assistance; in others, they may simply be unaware that what has happened to them is a serious crime. This is particularly true for immigrants, who may be reluctant to even contact police because of their experience with law enforcement in their homelands, where corruption and indifference to such crimes are not uncommon. 

Likewise, hate-crime victims may be confused about or unaware of the bias motivation involved, interpreting a threat or assault as a random act when other evidence suggests it was not. 

At other times, they may be reluctant to tell police about the bias aspects of the acts against them, fearing the police won't believe them or that they simply won't do anything about it anyway. And in the case of gays and lesbians, many are reluctant to report the crimes out of fear they will be forced to reveal their own identities as homosexuals; many more fear (sometimes with good reason) that they will wind up being humiliated and victimized further by police.

Likewise, many minorities in certain communities -- blacks in the South or Hispanics in the Southwest, for example -- have long histories of built-up distrust of law enforcement in their communities, and may simply refuse to participate in an investigation without proactive efforts on the part of police to bridge that gap. Indeed, this level of involvement was almost unanimously the chief factor reported by advocacy groups when queried by the authors of the DOJ study about what most affected hate-crime victims' decision to call or cooperate with police."

Why we need a federal hate-crime law: Exhibit A in rural Pennsylvania | Crooks and Liars


----------



## JBeukema

You cannot solve inequality by creating new inequalities in the law.


----------



## Nik

catzmeow said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> And what makes you think the prosecutor knew all the facts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not even a rational response.  How are you liking your spanking, Niki?
Click to expand...


Haha, yeah.  I'm getting a spanking from an overly emotional moron who doesn't seem to get why we should look at things from a rational objective perspective.  

Not a rational response?  Way to ignore the question.  But then, this seems to be a pattern with you.


----------



## Sky Dancer

JBeukema said:


> You people are idiots. You cannot solve inequality by creating new inequalities in the law.



We needed civil rights legislation.  Inequality was not going away on its own.  Study history.  We would not have a black President of the United States today without civil rights legislation.

We would still have slavery if it hadn't been outlawed.


----------



## JBeukema

Sky Dancer said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> You people are idiots. You cannot solve inequality by creating new inequalities in the law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We needed civil rights legislation.
Click to expand...









I am amazed by the stupidity of your response


----------



## Joe_Penalty

You are right it is not racial hatred.  It is a combination of white supremacy and western imperialism.


----------



## JBeukema

Joe_Penalty said:


> You are right it is not racial hatred.  It is a combination of white supremacy and western imperialism.



I am amazed by the displays of ignorance and stupidity We see in so many posts, in so many threads, as of late


----------



## Nik

JBeukema said:


> Joe_Penalty said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right it is not racial hatred.  It is a combination of white supremacy and western imperialism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am amazed by the displays of ignorance and stupidity We see in so many posts, in so many threads, as of late
Click to expand...


You should be used to yourself by now, I would think.

As for the inequality post...

Things can be unequal in the longer span of time as well as the shorter span.  When there are systemic inequalities one way, sometimes you need to be unequal to equalize the long term.


----------



## del

Nik said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe_Penalty said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right it is not racial hatred.  It is a combination of white supremacy and western imperialism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am amazed by the displays of ignorance and stupidity We see in so many posts, in so many threads, as of late
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You should be used to yourself by now, I would think.
> 
> As for the inequality post...
> 
> Things can be unequal in the longer span of time as well as the shorter span.  When there are systemic inequalities one way, sometimes you need to be unequal to equalize the long term.
Click to expand...


you typed that with a straight face, i bet.

tff


----------



## Nik

del said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am amazed by the displays of ignorance and stupidity We see in so many posts, in so many threads, as of late
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should be used to yourself by now, I would think.
> 
> As for the inequality post...
> 
> Things can be unequal in the longer span of time as well as the shorter span.  When there are systemic inequalities one way, sometimes you need to be unequal to equalize the long term.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you typed that with a straight face, i bet.
> 
> tff
Click to expand...


Ooooh, my bad Del.  If I knew you were reading this, I'd have used smaller words for you.  Did you understand it alright, lil buddy?


----------



## del

Nik said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> You should be used to yourself by now, I would think.
> 
> As for the inequality post...
> 
> Things can be unequal in the longer span of time as well as the shorter span.  When there are systemic inequalities one way, sometimes you need to be unequal to equalize the long term.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you typed that with a straight face, i bet.
> 
> tff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ooooh, my bad Del.  If I knew you were reading this, I'd have used smaller words for you.  Did you understand it alright, lil buddy?
Click to expand...


tissue?


----------



## Nik

del said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> you typed that with a straight face, i bet.
> 
> tff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ooooh, my bad Del.  If I knew you were reading this, I'd have used smaller words for you.  Did you understand it alright, lil buddy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> tissue?
Click to expand...


No, sorry, I don't have any for you.  Sorry lil one ;(


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Oderint dum metuant?  Let them hate so long as they fear. We hate illegal aliens because we fear them, it's sort of why people are against them, del me boyo. We fear them because they aren't exactly happy-go-lucky live and let live "immigrants".  Not  even close. But clue me in, besides all the crap you dredge up on the Internet, what positive glowing PERSONAL  experiences you have had with flesh and blood illegal aliens? I'm sure you must have ton of them to offset all the evil sh*t the rest of us mediocre plebes are forces  to deal with.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Oderint dum metuant?  Let them hate so long as they fear. We hate illegal aliens because we fear them, it's sort of why people are against them, del me boyo. We fear them because they aren't exactly happy-go-lucky live and let live "immigrants".  Not  even close. But clue me in, besides all the crap you dredge up on the Internet, what positive glowing PERSONAL  experiences you have had with flesh and blood illegal aliens? I'm sure you must have ton of them to offset all the evil sh*t the rest of us mediocre plebes are forces  to deal with.



Why do you fear illegal aliens? It has to be more than just them being "happy-go-lucky live and let live immigrants".

Personally I don't fear them nor anyone for that matter. One reason I'm against anyone coming to this country illegally is the fact that it's "illegal".  Has nothing to do with hate or fear. So please don't use "we" because you speak for no one but yourself.


----------



## del

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Oderint dum metuant?  Let them hate so long as they fear. We hate illegal aliens because we fear them, it's sort of why people are against them, del me boyo. We fear them because they aren't exactly happy-go-lucky live and let live "immigrants".  Not  even close. But clue me in, besides all the crap you dredge up on the Internet, what positive glowing PERSONAL  experiences you have had with flesh and blood illegal aliens? I'm sure you must have ton of them to offset all the evil sh*t the rest of us mediocre plebes are forces  to deal with.



let me repeat the question.

tissue?


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Hello, Del. Does that new avatar mean you finally pulled your head out of ...the sand? Or you just like like grotesque evolutionary throwbacks because they  need love too? Illegal aliens  need love, too.  Illegal aliens are not fleeing persecution or pogroms, they are not being rounded up  by ICE as if they were the Gestapo being sent to Awshwitz or Treblinka. NO, they just are deported. The sorry fate they get means they get to go back to that third world economic Chernobyl  they sprouted from, boyo.  Man, that sucks, being punished for breaking laws and all that. It's so totally fair and all. Why would we be pissed off at illegals? Like YOU would know.


----------

