# Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites



## louie888 (Feb 13, 2017)

I hope this helps clear up the confusion.







*Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel – protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005*

10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005


----------



## guno (Feb 13, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are Satmar sect of Hasidim , not the same a Lubavitcher anyone who is Jewish should know this, reading the op it reads like a generic orthodox , thus implying orthodox rejects Zionism

Hasidic groups largely emigrated to the US after the Holocaust. Each sect follows a single grand Rebbe, admiring him to such a degree that his table leftovers are considered blessed. The grand Rebbe position is generally hereditary, although it may pass to a son-in-law (who may have been selected for this) rather than to a son. I can think of two current Hasidic groups that have opted not to replace a beloved Rebbe after he died, and who are thus without a single leader: Breslov, who have been rebbe-less for 200 years, and Chabad (see below.) Aside from Chabad, they are very inward-focused, with the entire sect generally living in either one place, or a short list of communities (e.g. Belzers live in Jerusalem, Borough Park, Brooklyn, and I think Montreal.) The lingua franca is generally Yidish; boys, whose Jewish education is prioritized, may receive very little English education and may speak English poorly and with a heavy accent, even if their family has lived in the US for 4-5 generations. The sexes are even more rigidly separated in non-Chabad Hasidic groups than in other UO groups; for example, wedding celebrations are generally held in two separate rooms, rather than in one large room with a divider. The men tend to have distinctive dress, in the style of Eastern European gentry of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, and I find that when people think of "Orthodox Jew," they tend to be picturing "Hasidic man." Some groups get along quite well (e.g. they may marry across sect lines), and some really don't. I'm not plugged in at all to the intricate world of Hasidic politics, and can't really give you a good overview, but it can get fairly ugly, especially in Israel. This tends to be political/financial rather than purely religious, although they may have slightly different interpretations of halacha (and yes, the narcissism of small differences definitely applies here.)

Chabad is a Hasidic group, one currently riven by a division between those who revere the most recent Rebbe, but acknowledge his death in 1994, and those who still consider him the Messiah. (Frankly, non-Chabad Orthodox Jews find the latter group quite disturbing.) The most recent Rebbe charged his followers with bringing all Jews closer to observance of Jewish law and Judaism. These are the Hasidic Jews who may have asked you if you were Jewish at some point. They do not proselytize outside of Judaism, but can be quite aggressive within it. To that goal, they've founded centers around the world, and may live far from any established Orthodox community at all. They obviously choose to interact with many outside of their own groups, are more MO in terms of gender segregation, and are big fans of the internet and technology, which allows them greater outreach. Other Hasidic groups tend to be uncomfortable with them, and they don't have much social mixing between the two.

Haredim and Zionism - Wikipedia

*Groups which do not recognize Israel*



Flyer in Meah Shearimwhich declares "No entry to Zionists!"
There are a number Haredi groups which not only oppose Zionism, but also do not recognize the State of Israel. Among them are the Hasidic sects of Shomer Emunim (and its offshoots,Toldos Aharon, and Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok), Mishkenos HoRoim, and Dushinsky. In July 1947, Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of the Jerusalem-based Edah HaChareidis, declared to the United Nations his "definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine". The largest anti-Zionist Hasidic group is Satmar, which has around 130,000 adherents worldwide. The group’s position was crystallized by their charismatic leader, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, who authored comprehensive and polemic tracts detailing his opposition to Zionism. He encouraged his followers who lived in the "Holy Land" to form self-sufficient communities, rejecting social state benefits, and not to vote in general elections. Anxious not to be viewed as supportive of the actions of the secular Israeli government, which he viewed as an abomination, he instructed people not to visit the Western Wall and other holy sites which had been captured by Israel in the 1967 war. One of the most extreme sects is the Neturei Karta. Formed in 1938 as a breakaway from Agudath Israel, its 5,000 members are based mainly in Jerusalem and Beit Shemesh. A faction within the group openly supports the PLO and Hamas, and calls for the "peaceful dismantling of the Zionist entity".

*Groups opposing secular Zionism, but recognizing Israel*
The Agudat Israel is an international organization (with an Israeli association) of various Haredi groups, mainly from the Lithuanian yeshiva communities and Hasidic groups such as Ger and Belz. It initially adopted a stance of disregard for the State of Israel, motivated by pragmatism. They attempted to influence the politics of the State of Israel from within, by participating in national elections and sending their representatives to the Israeli Knesset, but still did not take full part in it by not serving in its military, and not celebrating any of the State's official holidays. Today, the organization has shifted over time to somewhat supportive of the state, although not officially recognizing itself as a pro-Zionist party. An example of this is the revolutionary Hesder legions in the IDF, which is a unit that combines religious studies and national service, designed specially for Haredi Jews. The Agudat Israel party in the Knesset is represented as United Torah Judaism, a collective party of Agudat Israel and Degel HaTorah. It tries to influence the Knesset with a pro-Judaism outlook, by mainly focusing on funding for Jewish education (yeshivas), exemption from military service for Haredi yeshiva students, and trying to strengthen Israel's Jewish identity.


----------



## Bleipriester (Feb 13, 2017)

So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?

Here are some political positions of Israeli parties:
Zionism
Labor Zionism
Liberal Zionism
Revisionist Zionism
Neo-Zionism
World Zionism
Anti-Zionism

Maybe, there could be even more:
Arab Zionism
Drone Zionism
Environment Zionism
Internet Zionism
Saudi Zionism
Two-State Zionism
Welfare Zionism

What do you think?


----------



## guno (Feb 13, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A true Shanda fur di goyim


----------



## louie888 (Feb 13, 2017)

guno said:


> They are Satmar sect of Hasidim , not the same a Lubavitcher anyone who is Jewish should know this...


No need to post walls of text and yes, Jews should and they do know this. Traditional Jews like Satmar and many other orthodox, reform and conservative Jews believe things like:
--Thou shalt not kill
--Don't steal
--Don't lie
--And beyond that that we are to remain in our diaspora until G-d returns us to our promised land.

The Lubavitcher "Jews" believe and act to the antithesis of these simple concepts that have been Judaism since there has been Judaism. "Jews" of great wealth and power are tied to these sociopaths and directly to Israel. Ttaking land by force, obviously is the antithesis of what G-d conveyed to us.




Bleipriester said:


> So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?...
> 
> What do you think?


It is not that they don't like "Israel." To them it is Palestine and is where a Muslim majority lived peacefully for centuries with a small population of Christians and even a smaller population of Jews. Again, we are to remain in our diaspora until G-d returns us to our promised land.




guno said:


> A true Shanda fur di goyim


LOL


----------



## guno (Feb 13, 2017)

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference
Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah


----------



## Bleipriester (Feb 13, 2017)

louie888 said:


> It is not that they don't like "Israel." To them it is Palestine and is where a Muslim majority lived peacefully for centuries with a small population of Christians and even a smaller population of Jews. Again, we are to remain in our diaspora until G-d returns us to our promised land.


But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected. Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 13, 2017)

guno said:


> your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference


Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things -  lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.




guno said:


> Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah


Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.




guno said:


> ...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.


If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.



guno said:


> Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.


The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.


----------



## Lipush (Feb 14, 2017)

It is always nice to know how to make a difference between Satmar and Neturey Karta.

NOT.


----------



## fncceo (Feb 14, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Israel or Jews (Haredi or otherwise).  But, if you insist on pretending to be Jewish ... I've got a job at which you'd be perfect.





Kapo


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

louie888 said:


> guno said:
> 
> 
> > your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference
> ...



If You ever read the prayers a Jew proclaims 3 times a day, You find out he opposes any human rule or man made law.

If You ever study the Torah or the Talmud it becomes clear that everything is going according to G-d's promises and his people's prophecies.

It's only in the recent days that there's an argument in regards to settling in the land. Mind You those who are fiercely opposed to Zionism are actually living in Zion Jerusalem.

*Nahmonides writes*: "We were commanded to inherit the land that the Highest G-d gave to our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we won't abandon into the hands of the nations or to be desolate.  And therefore it's said: _"You'll inherit the land and live in it, because I'll give it to You to inherit. And You'll settle the country, that I've swore to Your fathers" (Numbers 33:53)"
_
*Maimonides writes*: " In any circumstance will a person live in Eretz Israel, even in a town where there's a majority of nations, and he shall not live outside of Israel, even in a town with a majority of Israel.*That anyone who leaves abroad is like worshiping idols" *(Mishne Torah, Book of Judges, Laws of Kings. ch 5, law 12)

He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
*Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, *that it was said :_" and appease His land [and] His people"_ (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous * "*


----------



## Bleipriester (Feb 14, 2017)

louie888 said:


> If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.


That´s not an answer. The wrongdoings of a government don´t justify the rejection of the own country.




louie888 said:


> The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.


Willing or not, there was nothing they could do about it. And the way from the Balfour Declaration to the state of Israel was very stony because the Brits never intended to keep their word. Jews acting against Germany during WWI is seen as betrayal. Germany was a good home to the Jews and had good relationships with the USA.

The Vaterland, the largest, most modern, secure and comfortable ship on earth arrives in New York:






It was stolen by the Americans when the war broke out and they boasted of the size of our ship:





 Look what foolish, gay things they did on our ship, those duncecaps:






Category:Jewish surnames - Wikipedia


PS: I am not that funny guno guy who is whining about Trump day and night. Please properly quote.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 14, 2017)

fncceo said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> ...


There really should be a version of Godwins Law for those who bring up the Holocaust in every discussion to try to engender sympathy for their cause.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > guno said:
> ...



...and yet for centuries when there were no travel restrictions on Jewish people throughout Europe, hardly any chose to live in the "Holy Land". Even those that were expelled from their various native lands chose to live anywhere else but.


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Quiet the opposite, the amount of Jewish works done by rabbis who returned from exile is vast. Most of todays Shabbat songs, prayers and mysticism was written by established scholars of big schools in the Galilee. People were immigrating coming from Yemen and Spain.

We're talking about a span of roughly 2000 years, and to say that during those dark ages Jews had the conditions to cross continents is just ignorant towards the situation of the Jews in Europe, and the financial as well as existential conditions of the time. Even Maimonides had to move from Israel Egypt after fleeing Spain because of those conditions.

However there were always Jewish communities and established schools- the old Yishuv, or just those who came to die in Israel.
Therefore the communities of different groups of Jews from all around the globe who resided in Jerusalem, Hebron, Galilee, Gaza and elsewhere prior to Zionism. 

Baal Shem Tov (the founder of modern Hassidism) and Rabbi Nahman of Breslav tried both to settle but couldn't, however sent at least 4 times thousands of Jews from Poland, Ukraine, and Russia to settle and succeeded.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 14, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Yeah, like during those centuries it was as easy as hopping on an El Al flight.  Different times and circumstances.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


 Don't forget the Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) was started in Sefad during that time period.


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Maybe I'm mistaken in my understanding of the chronology, but as I understand many of the books of Kabalah were written much earlier . The Book of Creation (Sefer haYetsirah) is related to Abraham our father. And the Sefer Hazohar was written by Rabi Shimon bar Yochai.
Only later sages who lived in Israel and who came from Spain wrote down the later works like The Tree of Life by Rabi Chaim Vital.
My mind was 'blown away' reading the first verses of Sefer haYetsirah . 
If You understand what this book is about and who passed that Kabalah ('receiving' literally) the imagination immediately reaches its' limit.


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.

Secondly, this business of any great number of Jews residing in Palestine until the arrival of the European Zionists is propaganda.  While a small number of the most religious Spanish Jews evicted from Spain after 1492 who were Ottoman citizens did settle in Palestine, it was a very small number.  Almost all of these Spanish Jews settled in Livorno (a free city in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany) or Istanbul.  There is source documentation that shows that in the district that encompassed Palestine there were less than 10,000 Jews in 1893.  The Ottoman census of 1893 confirms this, and this number include quite a few recent Zionist arrivals from Europe.  So how many Jews could there have been in Palestine before the Zionist migration.  Here is the table from the 1893 Ottoman census:









The Kudus Special District is Palestine and you will see that there are about 3,900 female Jews and about 4,000 male Jews in the whole of the District in 1893. So again, how many friggin Jews could there have been in Palestine before 1893? You bunch of lying propagandists?

The census document is available online in pdf, but you have to go through some loops.  Scribd has a free 30 day download period so you could download it here:

Kemal H.karpat, Ottoman Population, 1830-1914

Or you can try this Russian free service:

Ottoman population, 1830-1914 : demographic and social characteristics / Kemal H. Karpat. book online read or download

The table from 1893 for the Kudus District is around page 144/145


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.
> 
> Secondly, this business of any great number of Jews residing in Palestine until the arrival of the European Zionists is propaganda.  While a small number of the most religious Spanish Jews evicted from Spain after 1492 who were Ottoman citizens did settle in Palestine, it was a very small number.  Almost all of these Spanish Jews settled in Livorno (a free city in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany) or Istanbul.  There is source documentation that shows that in the district that encompassed Palestine there were less than 10,000 Jews in 1893.  The Ottoman census of 1893 confirms this, and this number include quite a few recent Zionist arrivals from Europe.  So how many Jews could there have been in Palestine before the Zionist migration.  Here is the table from the 1893 Ottoman census:
> 
> ...



You're tired because Your original premise "there were no Palestinian Jews" was laughable and You disproved it with each reference You've been posting.
All I was saying Jews resided in Israel before the first Zionist immigration, for long and continuously through history, establishing a vast volume of works on that land.

If the numbers are too low for You, it only means that the recent massacres and expulsions of Palestinian Jews, just 50 years earlier, from Hebron, Jerusalem and Sefad were a successful ethnic cleansing by the fellow Arabs.


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.
> 
> Secondly, this business of any great number of Jews residing in Palestine until the arrival of the European Zionists is propaganda.  While a small number of the most religious Spanish Jews evicted from Spain after 1492 who were Ottoman citizens did settle in Palestine, it was a very small number.  Almost all of these Spanish Jews settled in Livorno (a free city in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany) or Istanbul.  There is source documentation that shows that in the district that encompassed Palestine there were less than 10,000 Jews in 1893.  The Ottoman census of 1893 confirms this, and this number include quite a few recent Zionist arrivals from Europe.  So how many Jews could there have been in Palestine before the Zionist migration.  Here is the table from the 1893 Ottoman census:
> 
> ...



BTW after manipulating this closed source You claimed to be the only right one...it's evident You've graphically manipulated it again as it differs from what You presented earlier:
post #3575
post #3572
post #3561


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.
> ...



You Hasbara types think you are clever don't you.  You are a lying Zionist.

My original premise was and has always been that *"Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews." * Exactly what the British reported. 

There was no ethnic cleansing of Jews or expulsion 50 years earlier. There was civil strife wherein people of all religions, Muslims included, were killed.  In Sefad the targets were the invading  European Jews, not the local Jews and you know it.  The local Jews paid the price of trying to protect the invading Europeans who were intent on stealing the land from the native non_Jewish inhabitants. 


*AN INTERIM REPORT*
*ON THE*
*CIVIL ADMINISTRATION*
*OF*

*PALESTINE,*

*during the period*
*1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.*


*AN INTERIM REPORT*
*ON THE*
*CIVIL ADMINISTRATION*
*OF*
*PALESTINE.*

*I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.
*
There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*_See_ Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years.* Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews."*

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.
> ...



 Hah, monte got busted!


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



So 77,000 ppl were Christians, and 76,000 were Jews...about equal.  As for that "handful" nonsense, perhaps the person who wrote this report was anti-Jewish, just like many ppl say Churchill was anti-Muslim.


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Actualy Your original claim was a racial one, that all Jews of Israel were Russians brought by a Zionist:
Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

Since then You've changed Your goalposts a couple of time.
All I showed You was that there was Jewish presence and work in Eretz Israel continuously throughout history.

You denying that Jews were mascaraed during the Arab peasant revolt and expelled from Jerusalem, Sefad, Tiberias and Hebron just 50 years before the first Zionist immigration is another futile attempt to deny history.

Let's see how many goalpost will You change until You Yourself prove me right again.


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.
> ...



No you idiot, I aligned the left and right pages correctly as the single scan had them unaligned.  Another lying Zionist complained about it and I aligned them, you lying Zionist scum.  Plus you can download the document and see for yourself, scum.


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



It's fact you lying piece of shit.  There were no more than 10,000 Jews in Palestine in 1893 as the Ottoman Census depicts.  By 1921 there were 76,000 nearly all European Zionist invaders.










Line up the two pages up, you ungrateful wretch (I did for you earlier) and you will see that there are 3,993 females 4,177 male Jews in Palestine in 1893.  Lying Hasbara scum. These are the facts, not your Hasbara lies and propaganda. Or download the source material and educate yourself you propagandist p.o.s.

Kemal H.karpat, Ottoman Population, 1830-1914


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



So You confirm that You've manipulated the pages that DIDN"T confirm what You've originally claimed once again. Nice argument...
By the way we already established that Your "only true source" is one we must pay for. On the other hand I've presented free and open to all European historic, governmental, local  and even official Palestinian sources that all confirming Jewish presence in the land of Israel prior to Zionism.

You can curse and call names all You want, all it does is show Your level Professor


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



You try to refute something that was never said before on another topic. Running in circles.

So what do You have that is relevant to this thread?


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Although technically not Zionists (as Zionism had not yet been established) by the early 1800's the Jewish population of Safed had begun to grow, due to the immigration of Eastern European Ashkanazi Jews. 

The Jews were not expelled from Palestine after the Arab peasant revolt.  In fact, when order was restored the Jews received reparations from the government.  While several hundred Christians and Jews were killed (and twice as many Muslims were killed) during the uprising none were ethnically cleansed.


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Just facts that demonstrate that all you do is post propaganda or Zionist myth that has no relevance to historical fact. Nothing circular about it.  If you insist on posting fake history, I will continue to point it out as fake.


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Those Jews weren't entirely expelled from Palestine, they were massacred and stripped of their land and possessions although they didn't take any side or part in the revolt against the Egyptians.
Jews were just the right minority to target, even when promised otherwise by Pasha.

These men informed me that the Jews of the place, who were exceedingly wealthy, had lived peaceably in their retirement until the insurrection which took place in 1834, but about the beginning of that year a highly religious Mussulman called Mohammed Damoor went forth into the market-place, crying with a loud voice, and *prophesying that on the fifteenth of the following June the true Believers would rise up in just wrath against the Jews, and despoil them of their gold and their silver and their jewels.* The earnestness of the prophet produced some impression at the time, but all went on as usual, until at last the fifteenth of June arrived. When that day dawned the whole Mussulman population of the place assembled in the streets that they might see the result of the prophecy. Suddenly Mohammed Damoor rushed furious into the crowd, and the fierce shout of the prophet soon ensured the fulfilment of his prophecy. Some of the Jews fled and some remained, but they who fled and they who remained, alike, and unresistingly, left their property to the hands of the spoilers. The most odious of all outrages, that of searching the women for the base purpose of discovering such things as gold and silver concealed about their persons, was perpetrated without shame. The poor Jews were so stricken with terror, that they submitted to their fate even where resistance would have been easy. In several instances a young Mussulman boy, not more than ten or twelve years of age, walked straight into the house of a Jew and stripped him of his property before his face, and in the presence of his whole family. 43 When the insurrection was put down some of the Mussulmans (most probably those who had got no spoil wherewith they might buy immunity) were punished, but the greater part of them escaped. None of the booty was restored, and the pecuniary redress which the Pasha had undertaken to enforce for them had been hitherto so carefully delayed, that the hope of ever obtaining it had grown very faint.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 14, 2017)

I wish I were at a PC right now so I could show Louie how incrediblly ignorant he is when it comes to halacha and aggadata.
Not to mention how much of a moron Catholic Monty is.


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



It's just funny that You come around disproving the point You were debating me about. But now You pose as if this was what You were saying originally.

It's a reoccurring tactic in the Palestinian politics, however the palestinians are more sincere about their intents publicly.


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> I wish I were at a PC right now so I could show Louie how incrediblly ignorant he is when it comes to halacha and aggadata.
> Not to mention how much of a moron Catholic Monty is.



I'd watch that with interest


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



You provide more Zionist propaganda from a Zionist site without indicating the source.   

The old "woe is me" crap does not work anymore. Christians and Muslims died during the rebellion of 1834, in far greater numbers than Jews.  A few hundred Jews died while tens of thousands of Muslims and Christians either died or were deported.

"The 1834 revolt and the immediate aftermath reduced the male population of Palestine by about one-fifth."

Peasants' Revolt of 1834 (Palestine)


----------



## GHook93 (Feb 14, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These are a radical group that does not represent Israel. They are like liberals they thing if Jews give up their homeland their enemies will love them. Dumbfucks forget 2000 yrs of persecution because they didn't have there homeland.

Fucking Jews are always their own worst enemy.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## Bleipriester (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.
> 
> Secondly, this business of any great number of Jews residing in Palestine until the arrival of the European Zionists is propaganda.  While a small number of the most religious Spanish Jews evicted from Spain after 1492 who were Ottoman citizens did settle in Palestine, it was a very small number.  Almost all of these Spanish Jews settled in Livorno (a free city in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany) or Istanbul.  There is source documentation that shows that in the district that encompassed Palestine there were less than 10,000 Jews in 1893.  The Ottoman census of 1893 confirms this, and this number include quite a few recent Zionist arrivals from Europe.  So how many Jews could there have been in Palestine before the Zionist migration.  Here is the table from the 1893 Ottoman census:
> 
> ...


Why are nationalities mixed up with religions?


----------



## rylah (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Quit dancing around Professor,

the source I used above was from the Adelaide University-
*Alexander William Kinglake ( Eothen, by Alexander William Kinglake : contents)*

a traveler to Palestine at the time.

If You need more sources there're enough, and they show a much a worse situation.
But what's Your premise, that Jews had no rights to self determination because they were targeted minority among the Arabs?


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

Bleipriester said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting so tired of this bullshit.  Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects.  A bunch of hocus pocus.
> ...



You would have to ask the Ottoman social engineers and census takers.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 14, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*For Munich, Throw Sissy Spielberg in With These Lemmings 
*
Selfish cowards, the same type of Yellow Jews who led their people into getting meekly massacred in the Holocaust.


----------



## montelatici (Feb 14, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



The Jews did not have the right of self-determination by taking land that was already inhabited by a vast majority of non-Jews.


----------



## Hollie (Feb 14, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



The Jewish people fulfilled the intent of the Mandate which was to establish the Jewish National Home. 

Odd that you're whining about the earlier invaders who were unable to establish their self-determination.


----------



## rylah (Feb 15, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Arab Palestinians and Egyptians had no right to expel Jews from Sefad, Hebron, Jerusalem and Gaza and strip them of their possessions.
The Crusades are a whole other story.

However if You're willing to discuss the subject at hand, try to relate to the Jewish law regarding settling the land, inheriting it, war of commandment and the 3 swears.

Let's see how You handle it rationally Professor.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 15, 2017)

rylah said:


> Quiet the opposite, the amount of Jewish works done by rabbis who returned from exile is vast.



Perhaps, we have prolific authors today, but in terms of overall populations, when the entire Jewish population of Eastern and Western Europe, North Africa and even the rest of the Middle East is involved, the numbers settling in the so called "Holy Land" were miniscule.



rylah said:


> We're talking about a span of roughly 2000 years, and to say that during those dark ages Jews had the conditions to cross continents is just ignorant towards the situation of the Jews in Europe, and the financial as well as existential conditions of the time. Even Maimonides had to move from Israel Egypt after fleeing Spain because of those conditions.



No we're not, and even if we were, travel was far more commonplace than you might imagine, even in the later Roman period trans-Mediterranean sea routes existed and were widely used by traders and the like. In the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries there were multiple voyages of colonisation financed by syndicates, and merchant companies; are you seriously suggesting that had there been any real "yearning" to "return", Jewish financiers couldn't have organised such a voyage or series of voyages to the "holy land"?


----------



## rylah (Feb 15, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Quiet the opposite, the amount of Jewish works done by rabbis who returned from exile is vast.
> ...



1. The works of Palestinian Jews was vast, take the Jerusalem Talmud, Mishnah, Kabalah and all the commentaries- they fills libraries.
The "miniscule" numbers are actually in the thousands 7000-15000 according to Monte's and my various sources. Keeping in mind the usual massecare here and there and the special taxes on the Jews, it paints a clear picture of alive and constantly renewing Jewish communty centers.

2. Travel for a Jew was not like travel for a European who could choose a rout most friendly to his congregation. A Jew on the other hand was banned from leaving his small village, G-d forbid his shadow falls on a Christian.
Nevertheless this is not to say that Jews from Europe didn't succeed in settling in Jerusalem, Hebron, Gaza and the Galilee. Building longstanding synagogues and schools. Under great pressure Jewish culture and presence as a minority kept developing in the land being supported by Jews from around the world. More than that the Jewish community of Jerusalem was always in contact with those in exile- no work could be accepted without it been reviewed first by the biggest Rabbis of each community.

Without that we wouldn't have Kabalah, Shulchan Aruch, and the Jerusalem Talmud to name a few.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 15, 2017)

rylah said:


> The "miniscule" numbers are actually in the thousands 7000-15000 according to Monte's and my various sources.



Prior to 1880 estimates of Jewish populations in Europe vary around the 7-10 million, so not counting those in North Africa and the rest of the Middle east, even with the high end of your estimate and the low end of mine, we are looking at a miniscule number 0.2%, of the total population that chose to live in their so called "holy land" http://www.un.org/en/holocaustremembrance/docs/pdf/Volume I/The_History_of_the_Jews_in_Europe.pdf



rylah said:


> The works of Palestinian Jews was vast, take the Jerusalem Talmud, Mishnah, Kabalah and all the commentaries- they fills libraries.



Books aren't people. See my comment above.



rylah said:


> Travel for a Jew was not like travel for a European who could choose a rout most friendly to his congregation. A Jew on the other hand was banned from leaving his small village, G-d forbid his shadow falls on a Christian.



What's your evidence for this?

Most Jewish communities were situated in coastal and riverine port cities and had ready access to maritime travel, since before Roman times. Jewish traders travelled as far a China, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility, that had their been an overwhelming "yearning" to "return" amongst the general Jewish population, they would have found the means to do so. HHF Factpaper: Jewish Traders of the Diaspora; Part I: The Persian Period

The fact is that these Jewish people had no connection with Palestine outside of their religion, they were all native ethnic English, French, German, Polish, Russian, Algerian, Tunisian, etc, etc, and were content to remain in their native communities where they were. It was Zionism that created the myth of "The Jewish People" being an ethnicity along with the myth and invention of a "holy land" for Jewish people.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 15, 2017)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> ...



Another Zionist lie. 

“Learning about the Jews who fought back shatters the stereotypes of passivity and victimization that sometimes colors views of the Holocaust,”-- Mitch Braff, Executive Director of the Jewish Partisan Educational Foundation. The Jews Who Fought Back


----------



## montelatici (Feb 15, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Jews were not expelled from Palestine.  Most Jews, as with all non-Christians in Roman Palaestina converted to Christianity after 380 AD. The 8,000 or so Jews in Palestine in 1893 as per the Ottoman Census of that year were (excluding a number of European Jews that had begun migrating to Palestine pre and post Zionism) Arab Jews that spoke Arabic and were culturally Arab whose ancestors had to leave Spain along with the Arab Muslims after the Christian Reconquista of Spain. These Arab Jews had a right to remain in Palestine along with the Arab Christians and Arab Muslims.  What neutral and normal people cannot agree with is the colonization of Palestine by Europeans of the Jewish faith and the robbery of land from the non-Jews by these Europeans. 

I don't give a crap about Jewish law, no religious bullshit law will convince me that stealing land and enslaving/imprisoning/oppressing people because of their faith is anything but a crime against humanity.

This early cinema documentary depicts Jerusalem in 1896 three years after the Ottoman census.  It's tough for you Hasbara types when we have video evidence demonstrating you are all full of crap.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 15, 2017)

Bleipriester said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.
> ...


You are simply missing the point.

The founding principles of Zionism run counter to Judaism.
The State of "Israel" does not represent the Jewish people.
Aggressive acts committed in the name of Zionism are crimes and not religious imperatives.
Zionists have no right to commit violent acts towards anyone — neither Palestinian nor Jew
Israel Versus Judaism


----------



## Bleipriester (Feb 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


No, no. I got the point. This all dos not change that there could theoretically be a revolution. Would Israel still be illegitimate after the Zionists were deprived of power?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Feb 15, 2017)

Oh, good grief.

The Neuteri Karta are the poster boys for every stupid asshole Antisemite out there trying to justify their hatred of Jews by finding some nut job Jews who agree.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> The founding principles of Zionism run counter to Judaism.




To say that Judaism is the extreme opposite of anything reduces a rather titanic, complex and sprawling religious belief system, legal code, cultural fabric and historical mythology of an entire peoples down to a few trite little "principles".

But what the hell, give it a go.  Defend your claim.  Which "principles" of Judaism run counter to the idea that the Jewish people should have a national self-determination?


----------



## rylah (Feb 15, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > The "miniscule" numbers are actually in the thousands 7000-15000 according to Monte's and my various sources.
> ...



The holliness of the land is not a subject to the the amount of Jews in or their personal choices.
Wealthy people like Maimonides and others tried to settle but didn't manage to stay for long.

Moving to Palestine meant facing constantly changing rulers, wars, facing hunger, malaria, monetary hardships and especially in the light of the special 'Jewish taxes'.

Another factor is Jews lived in enclosed communities facing persecution and assimilation, spread throuout the world- they didn't have one unified and organized voice. Especially after Shabtai Zvi and Frankists, Jews became very suspicious of other Jews from those other countries.
However the biggest pre-Zionism immigrations occured at the period when Jews had to fight the Frankist libels being backed by the Catholic church. The most opposing and prominent Rabbis of that time- Rabi Israel Baal Shem Tov and his counterpart Rabi Elyahu the Gaon agreed on one thing- they both sent whole communities to Israel to settle and enforce the longstanding communities in Jerusalem, Hebron, Shchem, Beit El, Sefad and Tiberias.

There were much more powerful people than You who tried to erase Jewish history, or disconnect them from the land...they're all gone with their heritage burried in the history books,faithfull or secular they always pointed at the Jew, Kant even called the Jews "the Palestinians among us".
So basically- Your brethern had a long run at that job You try here, You no longer have a say on who the Jews are or not, it expired in the 1940's.


----------



## montelatici (Feb 15, 2017)

What a load of bullshit.  The Jews "fighting the Catholic Church" were European Jews with little to no ancestral ties to the Middle East.  They were descendants of European converts.  The Jews in Spain had arrived with the Muslim invaders and it was not to be expected that the Christians would allow a part of the invasion and colonizing forces to remain in Spain without becoming Christians, Muslims and Jews that converted to Christianity remained in Spain most of the Muslim and Jewish less-wealthy found it convenient to convert.  The previous ruling class, which included Jews, had the interest and means to retreat to Muslim territory in North Africa.  Some of these wealthy Jews moved to Livorno in Italy, and established their previous Spanish businesses there. 

*'Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts,*


......maternal lineages did not originate in the Near or Middle East or the Khazarian Caucasus but rather, for the most part, within Mediterranean Europe. Another twist in the findings: Jewish women may have been assimilated in Europe as far back as 2,000 years ago—earlier than most other studies have projected. The researchers believe the DNA could trace back to the early Roman Empire, when as much as 10 percent of the population practiced Judaism, many of them converts...........................*80 percent of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry comes from women indigenous to Europe....*"

Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts | Genetic Literacy Project


----------



## louie888 (Feb 15, 2017)




----------



## theDoctorisIn (Feb 15, 2017)

guno said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> ...



They're not Satmarer. Satmar were never Zionist, and don't support the political state of Israel, but they don't protest against it either.

Those litvakers (_not_ hasidim) above are Neturei Karta - and there's no chance there are 10,000 of them in existence, let alone at that protest.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 15, 2017)

theDoctorisIn said:


> They're not Satmarer. Satmar were never Zionist, and don't support the political state of Israel, but they don't protest against it either.



False! Pretty much as usual with y'all.

More than 3,000 followers of the Satmar Rebbe demonstrate outside Israeli Consulate in Manhattan over Israeli prime minister's claims that he serves as emissary of the Jewish people.
read more: Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews protest in NYC over Netanyahu's speech


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Feb 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > They're not Satmarer. Satmar were never Zionist, and don't support the political state of Israel, but they don't protest against it either.
> ...



You seem to be confusing two different protests, that took place a decade apart. 

Your OP is about a protest in 2005, and this link is about a different protest in 2015.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 15, 2017)

I know. You said Satmar did not protest. I corrected you.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Feb 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I know. You said Satmar did not protest. I corrected you.



I said that they do not protest the existence of the state of Israel. And they do not.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 15, 2017)

From the Jewish source above...

*Rabbi David Neiderman told the thousands assembled. “Benjamin Netanyahu, stop speaking on our behalf and directing us what to do.”

“We in America and Jews all over the world are loyal citizens in the respective countries we reside in, and no other foreign government can claim to represent us or speak on our behalf,” he proclaimed.
read more: Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews protest in NYC over Netanyahu's speech*


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Feb 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> From the Jewish source above...
> 
> *Rabbi David Neiderman told the thousands assembled. “Benjamin Netanyahu, stop speaking on our behalf and directing us what to do.”
> 
> ...



Yes.

Are you having a hard time understanding what he's saying?

He is not protesting the existence of the State of Israel, he is saying that Bibi does not speak for him, or Jews as a whole.


----------



## rylah (Feb 15, 2017)

montelatici said:


> What a load of bullshit.  The Jews "fighting the Catholic Church" were European Jews with little to no ancestral ties to the Middle East.  They were descendants of European converts.  The Jews in Spain had arrived with the Muslim invaders and it was not to be expected that the Christians would allow a part of the invasion and colonizing forces to remain in Spain without becoming Christians, Muslims and Jews that converted to Christianity remained in Spain most of the Muslim and Jewish less-wealthy found it convenient to convert.  The previous ruling class, which included Jews, had the interest and means to retreat to Muslim territory in North Africa.  Some of these wealthy Jews moved to Livorno in Italy, and established their previous Spanish businesses there.
> 
> *'Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts,*
> 
> ...



Does it confirm Judaism and Zionism are 'extremely opposed'?
Seem You're just recycling the same 'ol we see You push in every other thread.

Funny how both the OP and the other automatic bots who demonize Jews on a daily basis here- have no ability to string coherent sentences about the basics of Judaism on their own.


----------



## theliq (Feb 16, 2017)

Bleipriester said:


> So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?
> 
> Here are some political positions of Israeli parties:
> Zionism
> ...


Because Zionism is a Terrorist Organization....Orthodox Jews Detest Zionists(this Cult who were formed in the 1890's by an Athiest Jew) That's why


----------



## theliq (Feb 16, 2017)

theDoctorisIn said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > From the Jewish source above...
> ...


Because he is a Zionist and Israel has been hijacked by this Terrorist Organization,to the point that the Zionists claim that Judaism is Zionism..which is a crock of shit.steven


----------



## theliq (Feb 16, 2017)

theliq said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


ps.....anyhow,Zionists mainly comprise of Synthetic Jews who have been Converted....they have no direct lineage to Abraham etc.


----------



## theliq (Feb 16, 2017)

louie888 said:


> guno said:
> 
> 
> > your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference
> ...


And 100's of thousands of them....these are and always have been a disgusting,shameful and self interested Cult


----------



## theliq (Feb 16, 2017)

Bleipriester said:


> So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?
> 
> Here are some political positions of Israeli parties:
> Zionism
> ...


Arab Zionism is a contradiction in terms.....silly that's Silly Bleipriester,I suggest you change your Medication ASAP


----------



## Bleipriester (Feb 16, 2017)

theliq said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?
> ...


Well, if you are unable to see the satiric nature of this you might explain why Arab Zionism is that absurd while the others are completely ordinary.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 16, 2017)

theliq said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?
> ...



May well be, but it exists Arabs For Israel


----------



## Bleipriester (Feb 16, 2017)

Challenger said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


May be. The Arab party in Israel is Anti-Zionist, though.
See also:
Christian Zionism - Wikipedia


----------



## theliq (Feb 16, 2017)

Challenger said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


Well Challenger,some Arabs could well be for Israel but I doubt many would be in favour of Zionism,unless they were Mentally Unhinged...This would be an Oxymoron methinks


----------



## GHook93 (Feb 16, 2017)

montelatici said:


> What a load of bullshit.  The Jews "fighting the Catholic Church" were European Jews with little to no ancestral ties to the Middle East.  They were descendants of European converts.  The Jews in Spain had arrived with the Muslim invaders and it was not to be expected that the Christians would allow a part of the invasion and colonizing forces to remain in Spain without becoming Christians, Muslims and Jews that converted to Christianity remained in Spain most of the Muslim and Jewish less-wealthy found it convenient to convert.  The previous ruling class, which included Jews, had the interest and means to retreat to Muslim territory in North Africa.  Some of these wealthy Jews moved to Livorno in Italy, and established their previous Spanish businesses there.
> 
> *'Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts,*
> 
> ...



The grand **** speaks. A Muslim like you is so Fucking clueless you think Islam is a feminist religion! 


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## montelatici (Feb 16, 2017)

GHook93 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > What a load of bullshit.  The Jews "fighting the Catholic Church" were European Jews with little to no ancestral ties to the Middle East.  They were descendants of European converts.  The Jews in Spain had arrived with the Muslim invaders and it was not to be expected that the Christians would allow a part of the invasion and colonizing forces to remain in Spain without becoming Christians, Muslims and Jews that converted to Christianity remained in Spain most of the Muslim and Jewish less-wealthy found it convenient to convert.  The previous ruling class, which included Jews, had the interest and means to retreat to Muslim territory in North Africa.  Some of these wealthy Jews moved to Livorno in Italy, and established their previous Spanish businesses there.
> ...



Moron, the article has nothing to do with Islam, plus I am a European Roman Catholic that believes that Islam is a disgusting religion.  Just shut the f_ck up unless you know what you are talking about.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 17, 2017)




----------



## theliq (Feb 17, 2017)

louie888 said:


>


YOU ZIONIST NOW SEE AND UNDERSTAND,HOW I HAVE EXPOSED YOU ALL AS S.Y.N.T.H.E.T.I.C.S,only theliq knows the truth and speaks it,unlike YOU ZIONIST TERRORIST RABBLE OF LIARS


----------



## Challenger (Feb 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> The holliness of the land is not a subject to the the amount of Jews in or their personal choices.



No, but if the land was so "holy" and Jewish people had such a "yearning" to return, you'd think more than 15,000 would have made the trip in the 1200 years where there was no restrictions on settlement there by anyone including Jewish people.



rylah said:


> Wealthy people like Maimonides and others tried to settle but didn't manage to stay for long.



There's no objective evidence Maimonides ever tried to settle there, he made his pilgrimage to Jerusalem and left, to settle in Egypt. 



rylah said:


> Moving to Palestine meant facing constantly changing rulers, wars, facing hunger, malaria, monetary hardships and especially in the light of the special 'Jewish taxes'.



In over 1,278 years between the arab conquest in 636 until 1914 there were approximately 900 years of peaceful stable government in Palestine during which there was no restrictions on travel or settlement by Jewish people, no massacres, hunger, etc. Yet only a tiny, tiny minority of Europe's, North Africa's and the rest of the Middle East's Jewish population bothered to go there and settle, not much of a "yearning" to "return" is there? Puts the lie to the Zionist narrative; Zionists lie, period.  



rylah said:


> The most opposing and prominent Rabbis of that time- Rabi Israel Baal Shem Tov and his counterpart Rabi Elyahu the Gaon agreed on one thing- they both sent whole communities to Israel to settle and enforce the longstanding communities in Jerusalem, Hebron, Shchem, Beit El, Sefad and Tiberias.



Did they? How many in total? Care to provide a link or source?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 17, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > The holliness of the land is not a subject to the the amount of Jews in or their personal choices.
> ...


Excellent post, thank you.


----------



## rylah (Feb 17, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > The holliness of the land is not a subject to the the amount of Jews in or their personal choices.
> ...



1. I think I have already explained that from various anegles. And indeed if 15,000 Jews were found in Palestine prior to the firs Zionist immigration in Palestine, taking in account all the looting of the communities, the destruction of Sefad and Tiberias as well as the massacres in Jerusalem, this actually shows that much more than 15000 have been immigrating throughout the time to keep that number (in relation to the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Palestine).

2. Thew fact of the pilgrimage itself indicates to the holiness of  Israel to Jews.
Otherwise he could just go straight to Morocco where he tried to settle before Egypt. Nahmonides is another example.
The main question here is are You willing to accept sources written by Jews?

3. I have showed numerous times that life in Palestine was indeed difficult especially for Jews, being a minority among Muslims who taxed them heavily. And of course the casual massacre here and there (see looting and destruction of Sefad a couple of times and the Arab peasant Revolt just 50 years prior to Zionism).

Basically Your premise here is- why if they were a persecuted minority, why didn't the all move to Israel. And the answer is in the question- they were a persecuted minority .
*It's the same as asking "if the peasants and workers didn't like to be bullied- why didn't they make a Bolshevic revolution 600 years prior to that"- The answer is in the question.*
One can only claim Jews had freedom to act and organize in that regard only through ignoring the status of the Jews in exile.

4. Some thousands.  Again if You're willing to accept Jewish sources.
However I think I can find other sources for numbers and dates after  Shabat. But with simple research You can find the same I will- and if You're rational and unbiased You'll find it Yourself. Look for Hassidic immigration, and the students of Vilnius Gaon.

Shabas Shalom.


----------



## montelatici (Feb 17, 2017)

There was no ethnic cleansing of Jews from Palestine.  The vast majority, if not all, of  the Jews in Palestine converted to Christianity between the death of Christ and 380 AD. The ancestors of todays Muslim and Christians were the Jews.  The handful of Jews that were in Ottoman Palestine had come from Spain after the Reconquista in 1492.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 17, 2017)




----------



## Shusha (Feb 17, 2017)

Posting the same meme, over and and over and over and over again, does not add to the discussion.  Why don't you attempt to answer the questions I posed a few days ago, louie888 ?


----------



## louie888 (Feb 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Posting the same meme, over and and over and over and over again, does not add to the discussion.


Noone has done that. Different pictures and different Rabbis.
Like these *HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!*





Ultra-Orthodox Jews stage mass protest against Israeli draft law



Shusha said:


> Why don't you attempt to answer the questions I posed a few days ago, louie888 ?


I stopped reading troll responses that were totally off topic or simply made up. If you have something relevant please ask again.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 17, 2017)

Post #53:

To say that Judaism is the extreme opposite of anything reduces a rather titanic, complex and sprawling religious belief system, legal code, cultural fabric and historical mythology of an entire peoples down to a few trite little "principles".

But what the hell, give it a go. Defend your claim. Which "principles" of Judaism run counter to the idea that the Jewish people should have a national self-determination?


----------



## louie888 (Feb 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Post #53:
> 
> To say that Judaism is the extreme opposite of anything reduces a rather titanic, complex and sprawling religious belief system, legal code, cultural fabric and historical mythology of an entire peoples down to a few trite little "principles".
> 
> But what the hell, give it a go. Defend your claim. Which "principles" of Judaism run counter to the idea that the Jewish people should have a national self-determination?


It has been explained clearly. Read the thread before asking questions that have been answered. <light bulb>


----------



## Shusha (Feb 17, 2017)

You haven't a clue, do you?  You don't even understand the topic well enough to discuss it.  You just see an anti-Jew meme and throw it up on the board.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> You haven't a clue, do you?  You don't even understand the topic well enough to discuss it.  You just see an anti-Jew meme and throw it up on the board.


Nope! Read the  thread and save yourself the embarrassment.


----------



## theliq (Feb 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> You haven't a clue, do you?  You don't even understand the topic well enough to discuss it.  You just see an anti-Jew meme and throw it up on the board.


You know NOT the Minute nor the Hour


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 17, 2017)

louie888 said:


>


I wonder what the Haredim think would happen if the State of Israel was "dismantled peacefully?"


----------



## theliq (Feb 17, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


They Hoss,would think that we can live Peacefully Again,with our Palestinian Cousins who have been in Palestine for over 5000 years


----------



## Hossfly (Feb 18, 2017)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


You know what they say, Stephanie.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 18, 2017)

I wonder what the Haredim think would happen if the State of Israel was "dismantled peacefully?"[/QUOTE]

I wonder what they think G-d acting in the world looks like.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 20, 2017)

Shusha said:


> I wonder what the Haredim think would happen if the State of Israel was "dismantled peacefully?"



I wonder what they think G-d acting in the world looks like.[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, the "God helps those who help themselves" mantra, so beloved by Zionists, helping themselves to land that doesn't belong to them.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 20, 2017)

rylah said:


> I think I have already explained that from various anegles.



Not really, you've still not answered the basic point as to why only 0.25 of the world's Jewish population ever bothered to settle in Palestine



rylah said:


> Thew fact of the pilgrimage itself indicates to the holiness of Israel to Jews.



The "holiness" is towards their cult centre Jerusalem, the idea of a "holy land" was a Christian invention siezed upon by Zionists in the 19th century to further their agenda. Jewish "pilgrims" would go to Jerusalem and leave or be buried there.



rylah said:


> The main question here is are You willing to accept sources written by Jews?



If, like any other historical accounts, they can be corroborated from other sources. 



rylah said:


> I have showed numerous times that life in Palestine was indeed difficult especially for Jews,



Not more so than any other Palestinian living there.



rylah said:


> 4. Some thousands. Again if You're willing to accept Jewish sources.
> However I think I can find other sources for numbers and dates after Shabat. But with simple research You can find the same I will- and if You're rational and unbiased You'll find it Yourself. Look for Hassidic immigration, and the students of Vilnius Gaon.



300?! really? Even allowing for your unsubstantiated claims, lets triple the original number; that still makes less than 1% of those Jewish people that apparently all had a "yearning to return".


----------



## Hollie (Feb 20, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what the Haredim think would happen if the State of Israel was "dismantled peacefully?"
> ...


Ah yes, the "God helps those who help themselves" mantra, so beloved by Zionists, helping themselves to land that doesn't belong to them.[/QUOTE]
The phrase that befuddles you has no connection with Jewish theology.

Although, it does seem to be a slogan beloved by your Islamist heroes who's history is defined by war, rapine and conquest.

Who's the hypocrite in this situation: The person who says there is no god but then behaves with tolerance and respect simply because it's in the human interest to do so

OR,

The person who claims they have a duty to emulate a higher being and follow "higher rules", and then doesn't?

My expectation is that if Islamism is so beneficial that it must be forced on all (as is the precept of islamism), then it follows adherents to it should be better people. If religious beliefs make you less tolerant, more violent, then of what good is it?

Discuss that with your friends over at Stormfront.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 20, 2017)

Here's another Jewish take on Zionism. The Disturbing Alliance Between Zionists and Anti-Semites

"...in the history of the Zionist movement, a history which demonstrates that there is no inherent contradiction between Zionism and anti-Semitism. The two ideologies have in fact often worked in concert to achieve their shared goal: concentrating Jews in one place (so as to better avoid them in others). Even before the modern Zionist movement arose in the late 19th century, Christian philosophers and statesmen debated what to do with the “oriental” mass of Jewry in their midst. As the scholar Jonathan Hess of the University of North Carolina has noted, one “solution” popular among Enlightenment figures who harbored anti-Semitic feelings was to deport Jews to a colonial setting where they could be reformed. Johann Gottlieb Fichte, among the founders of German Idealism, noted in 1793 that the most effective protection Europeans could mount against the Jewish menace was to “conquer the holy land for them and send them all there.”


----------



## Hollie (Feb 20, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Here's another Jewish take on Zionism. The Disturbing Alliance Between Zionists and Anti-Semites
> 
> "...in the history of the Zionist movement, a history which demonstrates that there is no inherent contradiction between Zionism and anti-Semitism. The two ideologies have in fact often worked in concert to achieve their shared goal: concentrating Jews in one place (so as to better avoid them in others). Even before the modern Zionist movement arose in the late 19th century, Christian philosophers and statesmen debated what to do with the “oriental” mass of Jewry in their midst. As the scholar Jonathan Hess of the University of North Carolina has noted, one “solution” popular among Enlightenment figures who harbored anti-Semitic feelings was to deport Jews to a colonial setting where they could be reformed. Johann Gottlieb Fichte, among the founders of German Idealism, noted in 1793 that the most effective protection Europeans could mount against the Jewish menace was to “conquer the holy land for them and send them all there.”



Ah, "the Jewish menace". 

Are you the squad leader at your Hitler Youth group?


----------



## rylah (Feb 20, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > I think I have already explained that from various anegles.
> ...





Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > I think I have already explained that from various anegles.
> ...



1. I have already given You numerous and long explanation, touching on a wide variety of Biblical, social, economic,historical, religious and cultural aspects in posts:
#11, #15 , #54 , #80 
If You don't like those answers you're free to dogmatically accept only the answers given to You by Revisionist Zionists like Pappe, Sand and others who try to erase Jews from being a people.
Just don't enter discussions if You're not willing to accept any answer that contradicts Your opinion.

And again the parallel of Your question is :
*"If workers and peasant suffered so much, why didn't they bring the Bolshevik revolution earlier". *
You're simply attacking a minority's right to self determination for the lack of power in their community and govt. system. 

Then again we have a continuous Jewish presence, whole communities that developed and numerous Synagogues built- *for whom?

The last one -the famous swear of Solomon- prohibited Jews returning in waves until certain global conditions were met.*

2. It seems You don't understand the concept of holiness or just disrespect it.
In that land we have the Holy of Holies, the tombs of our Patriarch and Matriarchs all those are holy places, and except for the Temple they're all outside of Jerusalem. The simple fact that the Holy G-d promised it and fulfilled makes it holy, as much as the shoes Moses wore became holy.
The whole of Judaism revolves about commandments of the land and Jews relationship to it.

Other fact is that a Jew remembers Israel throughout 3 daily prayers, blessings of meals and have a series of commandments especially dependent on residing in the Holy Land (7th year resting of land for example).

In addition I brought You the quotes of Maimonides and Nahmonides who stated that living outside of Israel is like worshiping Idols or having no G-d. Or the fact that residing in the land brings total forgiveness:

"He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
*Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, *that it was said :_" and appease His land [and] His people"_ (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous *"

3. *Really except for the occasional massacre here and there, destruction of whole Jewish communities, looting, changing of power and conquests and the special series of "Jew Taxes"- the conditions were really welcoming NOT.

Good luck proving the opposite.

4. Well Motelatici just recently brought up information about continuous returning of thousands of Jews (post #67). Otherwise how do You think the Galilee communities survived all the wars and masecares?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the land wasn't holly why would 26,000 Jewish soldiers risk their lives helping conquer the land during the Heraclius Revolt , or 10,000 Jewish soldiers from Persia decided to go with Abu 'Isa Obadiah?

*Basically in Judaism the're 10 levels of holiness of the land of Israel:
"עֶשֶׂר קְדֻשּׁוֹת הֵן: אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל מְקֻדֶּשֶׁת מִכָּל הָאֲרָצוֹת. וּמַה הִיא קְדֻשָּׁתָהּ, שֶׁמְּבִיאִים מִמֶּנָּה הָעֹמֶר וְהַבִּכּוּרִים וּשְׁתֵּי הַלֶּחֶם, מַה שֶּׁאֵין מְבִיאִין כֵּן מִכָּל הָאֲרָצוֹת:"

"_10 levels of holiness are:* Eretz Israel is holler than any land. And what is her holiness? *That You bring of her the Omer, the Bikurim and 2 Breads_*, what You don't bring from any other land" (Mishna, Kelim 1:6)
*
_**"*a land the Lord, your God, looks after;* the eyes of Lord your God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year to the end of the year."* (Deuteronomy 11)_
*
*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 20, 2017)

rylah said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Is that why all those atheists created Israel?


----------



## rylah (Feb 20, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Sure, these people have a special credit in G-d's eyes. While being secular all their life they helped bring millions of Jews home, and shed their blood for it. This is a serious credit on their account.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 22, 2017)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Oh, so all those devout Jewish Rabbis failed, but the Zionist terrorists get "special credit", what a warped depraved deity you must believe in.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 22, 2017)

rylah said:


> I have already given You numerous and long explanation,



Ah "explanation", aka Hasbara. However you've still not answered the point that less than 1% of the Jewish population chose to settle in Palestine when they had 900 years of relative safety in which to do so.



rylah said:


> Just don't enter discussions if You're not willing to accept any answer that contradicts Your opinion.



Take your own advice.



rylah said:


> And again the parallel of Your question is :



It's a non sequitur, not in the least "parallel".



rylah said:


> In that land we have the Holy of Holies, the tombs of our Patriarch and Matriarchs all those are holy places, and except for the Temple they're all outside of Jerusalem.



Maybe, but that doesn't give you the right to steal the land or expel the indigenous population.



rylah said:


> In addition I brought You the quotes of Maimonides and Nahmonides who stated that living outside of Israel is like worshiping Idols or having no G-d.



Yet both of them did.



rylah said:


> Really except for the occasional massacre here and there, destruction of whole Jewish communities, looting, changing of power and conquests and the special series of "Jew Taxes"- the conditions were really welcoming NOT.



They were for 900 years, conditions in the Ottoman Empire were far better for Jewish people than in Europe.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 24, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Oh, so all those devout Jewish Rabbis failed, but the Zionist terrorists get "special credit", what a warped depraved deity you must believe in.


These "Israel right or wrong" people are not G-d fearing Jews or even traditional Jews in ANY sense of the word.


----------



## louie888 (Feb 26, 2017)




----------



## Hollie (Feb 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


>



It's funny when Ahmed holds up that sign.


----------



## louie888 (Mar 2, 2017)

Hollie said:


> It's funny when Ahmed holds up that sign.


How do you know who that is? I guess that is your way of pretending that real Jews believe as you?


----------



## GHook93 (Mar 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Excellent? Lol why don't you 2 fags get a room?

This post were rife with lies, falsehoods, bullshit and rabid antisemite. 

No wonder you are so quick to jump in bed with him.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## louie888 (Mar 4, 2017)

GHook93 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


These guys are "rabid anti-Semites?"






OK there buddy, whatever you say.


----------



## Hollie (Mar 4, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > It's funny when Ahmed holds up that sign.
> ...




I can't help but chuckle to watch as you feverishly cut and paste from the web.


----------



## louie888 (Mar 6, 2017)

* New York City: 10,000+ Jews Against Israel (U.S. Media Blackout) *


*Published on Jun 22, 2013
Real News @ http://RevolutionNews.US — Tens of thousands Jews protesting the State of Israel in NYC... On June 9, 2013, tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews assembled on the streets of New York City to protest against the existence of the State of Israel, and to condemn it's current evil decree to draft yeshiva students. The mass demonstration took place in Federal Plaza Square in lower Manhattan, where a huge platform had been set up for several hundred rabbis...

*


----------



## louie888 (Mar 12, 2017)

I just saw this, it's not just our rabbis.

*Jewish students fight back against ‘Zionism is Racism’ events at Columbia*
*





Jewish students spoke out against anti-Israel protests at Columbia University last week, calling the activists “bigoted” and ignorant of “facts” regarding the history of Israel and Palestine.

Jewish students fight back against 'Zionism is Racism' events at Columbia - The College Fix*


----------



## louie888 (Mar 15, 2017)

From the link in the OP:

*Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries...*
*
10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005*

And there you have real antisemitism!


----------



## teddyearp (Mar 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> From the link in the OP:
> 
> *Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries...*
> *
> ...


It has been long known that there are some Jews who are against the State of Israel, thanks for reminding us. Note, your article here (that you re-posted from your own OP) is almost seventeen years old.

But your real intent here is to make sure that the front page is full of anti-Israel posts, mainly yours.  Once you see one fall off, you do like you did here and quote your own OP to bump it back to the front page. Many other forum sites would possibly ban your for this behavior.  Yet when someone creates a thread asking for some real solutions, all you can do is trash everyone else's post(s) in it instead of posting something intelligent.  Why? If you have such a problem with how things are in Israel/Palestine, why not post a solution in your own words?

You really just need to stop the attention whoring and get out of your momma's basement, boy.


----------



## jillian (Mar 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



riiiiiiiiight.... because some religious extremist thinks Israel shouldn't exist until the messiah comes.

don't you have something else to do with your life besides create anti-Semitic threads all day long, lowlife?


----------



## jillian (Mar 15, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > From the link in the OP:
> ...



truth is anti-Semites and white supremacists shouldn't be welcomed here. they should have to go post on stormfront where they belong.

apparently that's ok here, well, at least for the past few years.


----------



## jillian (Mar 15, 2017)

Bleipriester said:


> So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?
> 
> Here are some political positions of Israeli parties:
> Zionism
> ...



you can't have an Israel not run by Zionists because by definition if you support (as you should) Israel, then you're a Zionist.

you're welcome.

there is no such thing as arab Zionism. but thanks for playing


----------



## louie888 (Mar 15, 2017)

But the zionist's acts are antithetical to Judaism.

You're welcome.


----------



## Bleipriester (Mar 15, 2017)

jillian said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?
> ...


Those are sarcastic proposals.


----------



## Indeependent (Mar 15, 2017)

The OP is ignorant of the thread's topic.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 15, 2017)

Actually anybody who makes that claim is totally ignorant of the fact that Zionism is an integral inseparable part of Judaism.  It goes back to Moses and the Story of Exodus and leading the children of Israel to the promised land.  There are crazy cultists in every faith and these guys are one of them.  Most Jews laugh at these idiots and they are shunned by 99.99% of the Jewish faith.


----------



## louie888 (Mar 15, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Actually anybody who makes that claim is totally ignorant of the fact that Zionism is an integral inseparable part of Judaism.  It goes back to Moses and the Story of Exodus and leading the children of Israel to the promised land.  There are crazy cultists in every faith and these guys are one of them.  Most Jews laugh at these idiots and they are shunned by 99.99% of the Jewish faith.


Everything about that post is false... and stupid.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 15, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Actually anybody who makes that claim is totally ignorant of the fact that Zionism is an integral inseparable part of Judaism.  It goes back to Moses and the Story of Exodus and leading the children of Israel to the promised land.  There are crazy cultists in every faith and these guys are one of them.  Most Jews laugh at these idiots and they are shunned by 99.99% of the Jewish faith.
> ...


Ya okay.  Just because a semi literate copy and paste propagandist donkey like you says so.


----------



## montelatici (Mar 16, 2017)

Roudy said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Now that's just hilarious coming from the illiterate propaganda jackass.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 16, 2017)

The jackass would be you that ignores that all three faiths actually agree the land belongs to the Jews. LOL

According to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Eretz Israel is a land promised to the Jews by God according to the Hebrew and Greek Bibles and the Quran, respectively.[37][38]


----------



## montelatici (Mar 16, 2017)

Roudy said:


> The jackass would be you that ignores that all three faiths actually agree the land belongs to the Jews. LOL
> 
> According to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Eretz Israel is a land promised to the Jews by God according to the Hebrew and Greek Bibles and the Quran, respectively.[37][38]



I don't know what you mean by the Greek Bible, but if you mean the real Bible, i.e. the New Testament, it does not.


----------



## fncceo (Mar 16, 2017)

montelatici said:


> I don't know what you mean by the Greek Bible



Sure you do ... the core books of the Xtian bible (the 'New' Testament) were first written in Greek.  They aren't Jewish scripture.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 16, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The jackass would be you that ignores that all three faiths actually agree the land belongs to the Jews. LOL
> ...


So where did Jesus the Zionist Jew live, there was no Palestine during Jesus' lifetime.  Maybe that's why there is no Palestine mentioned in any of the three holy books of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.


----------



## montelatici (Mar 16, 2017)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



We do know that Pontius Pilate was the Governor and Prefect, so it was a Roman province.  The Romans could call it anything they wanted to call it. Jesus Christ was the complete opposite of a Zionist.  Does "Give unto Caesar" ring a bell?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


We know that you're fulla BS as Jesus was a Zionist and a Jew and there was no such thing as a Palestine during Jesus' life.  We also know that all three holy books of Islam, Christianty and Judasim say that Israel is the promised land of the Jews.


----------



## fncceo (Mar 17, 2017)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



At the end of the day ... Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, or Chris Angel don't enter into it.  

The Jews built Israel and they're not going anywhere.  The world is just gonna have to get used to that.


----------



## montelatici (Mar 17, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



They may not be going away but they certainly won't maintain minority rule for the long-term. It's just a matter of time. Like South Africa.


----------



## fncceo (Mar 17, 2017)

The majority population of Israel are Jews.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Keep smoking whatever you're smoking.  Jews are back in their religious, cultural, and ancestral homeland, and they ain't goin' nowhere.


----------



## Hollie (Mar 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



How lucky for you that xtians have been all but purged from the Islamist Middle East. Gaza and the West Bank are nearly there. 

Just like other Islamist paradises.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If zionists represent Jews as they claim, then why do they beat orthodox Jews?


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

fncceo said:


> The majority population of Israel are Jews.



Nope.

"The current population of the Greater Israel is about 12.9 million: 6.2 million Jewish Israeli citizens, 2.1 million non-Jewish Israeli citizens, and 4.5 million non-Jewish Palestinians who are not recognized by Israel as its citizens even though they’ve been under Israeli occupation and control for 48 years. - See more at: Selective voting in the land of Greater Israel


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 3, 2017)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


I have heard many pastors refer to the place as Palestine. The maps in the back of my Bible call the place Palestine.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > The majority population of Israel are Jews.
> ...


"Greater Israel" LOL. No such thing.  

In 2017, Israel's population was an estimated 8,643,600 people, of whom 6,459,700 (74.8%) were recorded by the civil government as Jews. 1,799,400 Arabs comprised 20.8% of the population, while non-Arab Christians and people who have no religion listed in the civil registry made up 4.4%.[263][1] Over the last decade, large numbers of migrant workers from Romania, Thailand, China, Africa, and South America have settled in Israel. Exact figures are unknown, as many of them are living in the country illegally,African migrants had entered Israel.


Immigration to Israel in the years 1948–2015. The two peaks were in 1949 and 1990.

Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish ancestry the right to Israeli citizenship.yerida in Hebrew), primarily to the United States and Canada, is described by demographers as modest,diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Approximately 76% of Israeli Jews are born in Israel, 16% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 8% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab world).Ashkenazi Jews, constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis. Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, including both Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[273] form most of the rest of the Jewish population.[274][275][276] Jewish intermarriage rates run at over 35% and recent studies suggest that the percentage of Israelis descended from both Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews increases by 0.5 percent every year, with over 25% of school children now originating from both communities.Russian descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.[update], 385,900 Israelis lived in West Bank settlements,Six-Day War, in cities such as Hebron and Gush Etzion bloc. In addition, there were more than 200,000 Jews living in East Jerusalem,Golan Heights.lived in settlements in the Gaza Strip, known as Gush Katif, until they were evacuated by the government as part of its 2005 disengagement plan.[283]


----------



## Roudy (Apr 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Again, there was no Palestine during Jesus' time.  Unless you happen to know a "pastor" who is about 2100 years old.  LOL


----------



## louie888 (Apr 8, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> I have heard many pastors refer to the place as Palestine. The maps in the back of my Bible call the place Palestine.


QFT!

That video should be a sticky on the front page, but I'm still not sure it would help.


----------



## Hollie (Apr 8, 2017)

louie888 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > I have heard many pastors refer to the place as Palestine. The maps in the back of my Bible call the place Palestine.
> ...


You slow learners should realize that "I saw it on YouTube so it must be true" is just silly.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

montelatici said:


> <snip>Greater Israel is<snip>



Pretty cool how you move the goal posts to suit your electronicintefada narrative every single time.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

Oh crap! Screwy's back!


----------



## montelatici (Apr 8, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > <snip>Greater Israel is<snip>
> ...



You are a lying sack of crap.  You can't question the facts so you accuse me of using a propaganda site, which I never do, unlike you and your friends that use Hasbara sites exclusively.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

Oooh, must have hit a nerve there, eh?

Since you all throw that term 'Hasbara' around so much, I have decided that the closest term to use for you and your ilk is 'electronic intifada', since you decide to keep the name for your propaganda secret. I do not use it to refer to the website at all. It just seems to fit, as your reaction clearly proves.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 8, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Oooh, must have hit a nerve there, eh?
> 
> Since you all throw that term 'Hasbara' around so much, I have decided that the closest term to use for you and your ilk is 'electronic intifada', since you decide to keep the name for your propaganda secret. I do not use it to refer to the website at all. It just seems to fit, as your reaction clearly proves.



The problem for you is that I only present facts supported by unbiased academic, governmental and other official sources.  You consider facts propaganda.

You and your ilk base your reality on Hasbara propaganda.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

Neener, neener, neener! I must have hit a home run now that I've found a good comeback to your 'Hasbara, Hasbara, Hasbara' name calling.

Why don't you fucking take all your toys, little boy, and go home to Iran since you have praised them by saying, "they must be doing something right."


----------



## montelatici (Apr 8, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Neener, neener, neener! I must have hit a home run now that I've found a good comeback to your 'Hasbara, Hasbara, Hasbara' name calling.
> 
> Why don't you fucking take all your toys, little boy, and go home to Iran since you have praised them by saying, "they must be doing something right."



No, you have just proven that facts don't matter to you and your ilk. You will stand by the Hasbara propaganda you have been conditioned by and will ignore the facts and/or claim that facts are the propaganda and the lies and Hasbara propaganda you have been conditioned by is the truth.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

Quit lying about me. Why don't you just fuck off. Your time is done.

Wake up. In the last few weeks a new light has hit this forum where some who were on opposite 'sides' of this issue have come together to realistically talk about possible peaceful solutions.

This same light has also exposed those on both 'sides' who never want peace. You are one.

Fuck off and go to the place "that must be doing something right" in YOUR own words, Iran.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 8, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Quit lying about me. Why don't you just fuck off. Your time is done.
> 
> Wake up. In the last few weeks a new light has hit this forum where some who were on opposite 'sides' of this issue have come together to realistically talk about possible peaceful solutions.
> 
> ...


You are reacting to an emotionally disturbed person who has no basis in reality.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

I know, I'm wasting my fingers, lol.


----------



## fncceo (Apr 8, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Hasbara sites









My favourite site.


----------



## fncceo (Apr 8, 2017)

montelatici said:


> I only present facts supported by unbiased academic, governmental and other official sources


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

Monti only presents cherry picked facts from cherry picked academic, cherry picked governmental, and other cherry picked sources.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 8, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Monti only presents cherry picked facts from cherry picked academic, cherry picked governmental, and other cherry picked sources.


YUM!


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

Dammit independent, now yer deflectin'! Cherry season ain't fer a month or three yet.

Lol!


----------



## louie888 (Apr 10, 2017)

I know you guys would rather derail this thread than face the truth, but the truth is important. Let's move back to the topic and what we learned from the OP.







*Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel – protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005*

10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005






This simple truth will not go away.


----------



## Hollie (Apr 10, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I know you guys would rather derail this thread than face the truth, but the truth is important. Let's move back to the topic and what we learned from the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is there anything from this decade you can cut and paste?


----------



## Roudy (Apr 10, 2017)

Hollie said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I know you guys would rather derail this thread than face the truth, but the truth is important. Let's move back to the topic and what we learned from the OP.
> ...



They all repeat the same pathetic shit, over and over, until their visa expires.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 10, 2017)

Hollie said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I know you guys would rather derail this thread than face the truth, but the truth is important. Let's move back to the topic and what we learned from the OP.
> ...


Of course, silly, Judaism has been around for 1000s of years and doesn't change just because fake Jews steal Palestine, carry out a mass slaughter of countless human beings and rename it to Israel.

This here is from 27 March 2017, *just a few weeks ago...*


----------



## Roudy (Apr 10, 2017)

Achmed, according to your own holy book the Koran, your God, Allah, promised the holy land of Israel to the Jews, forever.  What are you babbling?


----------



## louie888 (Apr 10, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Achmed, according to your own holy book the Koran, your God, Allah, promised the holy land of Israel to the Jews, forever.  What are you babbling?


A) You missed the memo, I'm a Jew.

B) Wow! I thought I could have posted here forever, and would never see you post something that was accurate. Well done.

C) All the Abrahamic religions believe that and THAT IS THE POINT! The zionists changed the part about remaining AS LOYAL CITIZENS IN THE COUNTRIES WE RESIDE in during our diaspora until He - AND ONLY HE - returns us. Beyond that, the zionists forgot the part about not killing, not lying, and not stealing - LET ALONE THE HOLY LAND!

Until you realize that G-d did not want His Aryan, European, Jewish converts to claim Palestine as theirs and then start murdering all his darker skinned children, you have no right to call yourself Jewish, let alone call that land "Israel."


----------



## louie888 (Apr 10, 2017)

Maybe this will be an easier way for you to understand this.

Traditional Jews oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons. 

We had a thread here which is now elsewhere apparently, but here they are...

*FIRST* -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

*SECOND* -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

*THIRD* -- Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

*FOURTH* -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel. 

Why Orthodox Jews are Opposed to the Zionist State

First, can you disagree with any of that? And secondly, compare that with what the zionists have turned that into...


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 10, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Maybe this will be an easier way for you to understand this.
> 
> Traditional Jews oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons.
> 
> ...


The last time God told Joshua to conquer the Land, Joshua was commanded to exterminate all the inhabitants.
Since you seem to be so in line with God, I was wondering how you feel about that piece of historical fact.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 10, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Achmed, according to your own holy book the Koran, your God, Allah, promised the holy land of Israel to the Jews, forever.  What are you babbling?
> ...


The "Zionists" did enter the promised land, in the Story of Exodus about 3000 years ago, which is what modern Zionism and Judaism is based on. The land was promised by by G-d to the Jewish people, eternally.  And all three faiths agree on this.  There is no Palestine or Palestinian people in the Koran Achmed. Which is the most recent "record" since the Koran is about 1400 years old.  That makes your Muhammad a Zionist.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 10, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Maybe this will be an easier way for you to understand this.
> 
> Traditional Jews oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons.
> 
> ...


Read the Koran!  Ha ha ha.

*THE QUR'AN SAYS THAT ALLAH GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS *


THE QUR'AN SAYS:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

THE LAND OF ISRAEL IN QUR'ANIC EXEGESIS

The fundamentalist Muslim program to use Islam as an instrument for political warfare against Jews finds a major obstacle in the Qur'an itself. Both the Bible and the Qur'an state quite clearly that the right of the Israelites to the Land of Israel does not depend on conquest and colonization. This right flows from the will of almighty God Himself.

Both the Jewish and Islamic Scriptures teach that God, through His chosen servant Moses, decided to free the offspring of Jacob from slavery in Egypt and to constitute them as heirs of the Promised Land. Whoever claims that Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is something new and rooted in human politics denies divine revelation and divine prophecy as explicitly expressed in our Holy Books (the Bible and Koran).

The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

Moreover - and those who try to use Islam as a weapon against Israel always conveniently ignore this point - the Holy Qur'an explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment - where it says: "And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

Therefore, from an Islamic point of view, there is NO fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State.

JERUSALEM IN THE QUR'AN

The most common argument against Muslim acknowledgment of Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is that, since al-Quds [Jerusalem] (4) is a Holy Place for Muslims, Muslims cannot accept that it is ruled by non-Muslims, because such acceptance amounts to a betrayal of Islam.

Before expressing our point of view on this question, we must reflect upon the reason for which Jerusalem and Masjid al-Aqsa [the Al Aksa mosque] hold such a sacred position in Islamic faith.

As is well known, the inclusion of Jerusalem among Islamic holy places derives from al-Mi'raj, the Ascension of the Prophet Muhammed to heaven. The Ascension began at the Rock, usually identified by Muslim scholars as the Foundation Stone of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem referred to in Jewish sources.

Recalling this link requires us to admit that there is no connection between al-Miraj [the Ascension] and Muslim sovereign rights over Jerusalem since, in the time that al-Miraj took place, the City was not under Islamic, but under Byzantine administration. Moreover, the Qur'an expressly recognizes that Jerusalem plays for Jews the same role that Mecca does for Muslims.

We read:

"...They would not follow thy direction of prayer (qiblah), nor art thou to follow their direction of prayer; nor indeed will they follow each other's direction of prayer..." (5)

All Qur'anic commentators explain that "thy qiblah" [direction of prayer for Muslims] is clearly the Ka'bah of Mecca, while "their qiblah" [direction of prayer for Jews] refers to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

To quote only one of the most important Muslim commentators, we read in Qadn Baydawn's Commentary:

"Verily, in their prayers Jews orientate themselves toward the Rock (sakhrah), while Christians orientate themselves eastwards..." (6)

In complete opposition to what "Islamic" fundamentalists continuously claim, the Book of Islam [the Qur'an] - as we have just now seen - recognizes Jerusalem as the Jewish direction of prayer.

Some Muslim commentators also quote the Book of Daniel (7) as a proof for this.

After reviewing the relevant Qur'anic passages concerning this matter, I conclude that, as no one denies Muslims complete sovereignty over Mecca, from an Islamic point of view - despite opposing, groundless claims - there is no reason for Muslims to deny the State of Israel - which is a JEWISH state - complete sovereignty over Jerusalem.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 10, 2017)

Actually there is no Judaism without Zionism.

_Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:1-3 ESV)_

_And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. And he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” (Genesis 15:5-7 ESV)_

Not only that, but many understand this claim to the land to be permanent:

_And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God. (Genesis 17:7-8 ESV)_


----------



## fncceo (Apr 10, 2017)

louie888 said:


> You missed the memo, I'm a Jew.



Bollocks ...


----------



## Hollie (Apr 10, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



That was stereotypical. You rattled on with a lot of incoherent stuttering and mumbling followed by dumping a lot of cut and paste photos of unknown origin and authenticity.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 10, 2017)

fncceo said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > You missed the memo, I'm a Jew.
> ...


If Achmed Louie is a Jew then I'm the King of Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 12, 2017)

Roudy said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


Can you spare a few billion?


----------



## Roudy (Apr 13, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


Meet me on 5th avenue at Tiffany and Co. after the noon prayers, I'm buying my eighth wife a ring.


----------



## rylah (Apr 19, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Maybe this will be an easier way for you to understand this.
> 
> Traditional Jews oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons.
> 
> ...


1. Seems right but too relgiously-idealistic and judgemental. Judaism deals with this world. We're humans not angels.

2.You don't undestand 'Solomon's promise' because You never rely on the original text in the Torah itself.
Vayoel Moshe is NOT the Torah, it's a book written for a small sect some 40 yrs ago.

3. Totally WRONG- the book of Hosea can teach You new stuff about how G-d views sinners. Moreover the meaning of commandments is clear for anyone with basic
Hebrew understanding- but You seem to prefer the Christian version of things...hmmm why?

4. Frankists and Sabbateans. Are You sure You're not being lead by those same people that Baal Shem Tov fought?
However funny 'cause it's coming from a guy who mistakes the Kippur for Passover and calls himself a "Jews"- You know who I'm talking about louie?


----------



## louie888 (Apr 20, 2017)

Thanks for that load of shit; that didn't even respond to what you quoted.

Anyways... more PROOF:

*Ultra-Orthodox politicians vow to fight move and bypass the court, saying decision desecrates Jewish values *

In landmark ruling, High Court says Tel Aviv mini-markets can open on Shabbat


----------



## rylah (Apr 20, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Thanks for that load of shit; that didn't even respond to what you quoted.
> 
> Anyways... more PROOF:
> 
> ...



I see what You mean. But what's new?

Millions of Jews will keep this Shabbos and the next by the mere chance of living here in Israel, being exposed to the Jewish tradition.
Even more will keep Yom Kippur for the rest of their lives.

Some choose 'Din', I choose 'Rhamim'.
Which do You prefer for *Yourself*?


----------



## abu afak (Apr 22, 2017)

louie888 said:


> No need to post walls of text and yes, Jews should and they do know this. Traditional Jews like Satmar and many other orthodox, reform and conservative Jews believe things like:
> --Thou shalt not kill
> --Don't steal
> --Don't lie
> ...


YOU Dishonest POS.
The reason some of the Ultra-Orthodox cult members like you (Neturei Karta, etc) are anti-zionist, is they don't believe there should be a Jewish State until the Messiah comes. Period. (ergo they mock Jesus too)

It has NOTHING to with morality. territory, occupation, etc.
The rest is dishonest window-dressing/excuses.
Most of the less religious/less freaked out Orthodox Jews are the most ardent Settlers.
`


----------



## Roudy (Apr 25, 2017)

abu afak said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > No need to post walls of text and yes, Jews should and they do know this. Traditional Jews like Satmar and many other orthodox, reform and conservative Jews believe things like:
> ...


And yet, they disregard their own Koran, which explicitly says the land belongs to the Jews. Go figure.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 27, 2017)

Yet another example proving the validity of my OP.


----------



## rylah (Apr 27, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Yet another example proving the validity of my OP.
> 
> View attachment 123590
> View attachment 123591



monte monte...

He doesn't speak for Judaism anymore

Shmuely Boteach:


----------



## louie888 (May 17, 2017)

*Judaism  believes in One G-d who revealed the Torah. It affirms Divine Providence and, accordingly, views Jewish exile as a punishment for sin. Redemption may be achieved solely through prayer and penance. Judaism calls upon all Jews to obey the Torah in its entirety including the commandment to be patriotic citizens.

Zionism  rejects the Creator, His Revelation and reward and punishment. Among its fruits are the persecution of the Palestinian people and the spiritual and physical endangering of the Jewish people. It encourages treasonous, dual loyalty among unsuspecting Jews throughout the world. At its root Zionism sees reality as barren and desacralized. It is the antithesis of Torah Judaism.

What is Zionism? Judaism versus Zionism*


----------



## louie888 (May 18, 2017)

From the link above...

*There is a vile lie, which stalks the Jewish people across the globe. It is a lie so heinous, so far from the truth, that it can only gain popularity due to the complicity of powerful forces in the "mainstream" media and educational establishment.

It is a lie which has brought many innocent people untold suffering and if unchecked has the potential to create extraordinary tragedy in the future.
It is the lie that declares that Judaism and Zionism are identical.
*
*Nothing could be further from the truth.*
*
Judaism is the belief in revelation at Sinai. It is the belief that exile is a punishment for Jewish sins.

Zionism has for over a century denied Sinaitic revelation. It believes that Jewish exile can be ended by military aggression.
*
*Zionism has spent the past century strategically dispossessing the Palestinian people. It has ignored their just claims and subjected them to persecution, torture and death.*
*
Torah Jews the world over are shocked and pained at this short-lived dogma of irreligiosity and cruelty. Thousands of Torah scholars and saints have condemned this movement from its inception. They knew that the pre-existing good relationship between Jews and Muslims in the Holy Land was bound to suffer as Zionism advanced.

The so-called "State of Israel" stands rejected on religious grounds by the Torah. Its monstrous insensitivity to the laws of basic decency and fairness appall all men be they Jewish or not....

We are saddened day in and day out at the terrible toll of death emanating from the Holy Land. Not one of them would have occurred if Zionism had not unleashed its evil energies upon the world.
*
*As Jews we are called upon to live in peace and harmony with all men. We are exhorted to be law abiding and patriotic citizens in all lands....*


----------



## Roudy (May 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> From the link above...
> 
> *There is a vile lie, which stalks the Jewish people across the globe. It is a lie so heinous, so far from the truth, that it can only gain popularity due to the complicity of powerful forces in the "mainstream" media and educational establishment.
> 
> ...


From Achmed Monte's nutty site:

*"Judaism is the belief in revelation at Sinai. It is the belief that exile is a punishment for Jewish sins."

Ha ha ha, ho ho ho hee hee hee! The things these desperate Jew haters resort to and actually believe in, I have to admit, it's quite amusing.  *


----------



## louie888 (May 28, 2017)

Roudy said:


> *..."Judaism is the belief in revelation at Sinai. It is the belief that exile is a punishment for Jewish sins."...*


You deny this as fact?

Don't forget that:

*Judaism  believes in One G-d who revealed the Torah. It affirms Divine Providence and, accordingly, views Jewish exile as a punishment for sin. Redemption may be achieved solely through prayer and penance. Judaism calls upon all Jews to obey the Torah in its entirety including the commandment to be patriotic citizens.

Zionism  rejects the Creator, His Revelation and reward and punishment. Among its fruits are the persecution of the Palestinian people and the spiritual and physical endangering of the Jewish people. It encourages treasonous, dual loyalty among unsuspecting Jews throughout the world. At its root Zionism sees reality as barren and desacralized. It is the antithesis of Torah Judaism.

What is Zionism? Judaism versus Zionism*


----------



## Indeependent (May 28, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > *..."Judaism is the belief in revelation at Sinai. It is the belief that exile is a punishment for Jewish sins."...*
> ...


I'm glad you think that a group who comprise .0000001% of Jews represents all Jews.
You really are a moron.


----------



## Hollie (May 28, 2017)

louie888 said:


> From the link above...
> 
> *There is a vile lie, which stalks the Jewish people across the globe. It is a lie so heinous, so far from the truth, that it can only gain popularity due to the complicity of powerful forces in the "mainstream" media and educational establishment.
> 
> ...



Cutting and pasting from NK as usual. 

Don't quit your day job as Koran polisher.


----------



## rylah (May 29, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > *..."Judaism is the belief in revelation at Sinai. It is the belief that exile is a punishment for Jewish sins."...*
> ...



Don't forget that You have NOTHING, and remember that Zionism is 2,521 years old  

_"כל המהלך ארבע אמות בארץ ישראל מובטח לו שהוא בן העולם הבא"_
תלמוד בבלי, מסכת כתובות, דף קי"א, עמוד א'.


_*"Each one who walks 4 steps in Eretz Israel is promised to be of the World to Come"*_
Babylonian Talmud, Ketuvot 111, 1


----------



## rylah (May 29, 2017)

We can even talk about how Quran supports Zionism 


"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: *'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.*'" 
[Qur'an 17:104]


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (May 29, 2017)

rylah said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



There is another quote, possibly from the Talmud, that someone who does not live in Israel is as if he has no G-d.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Wow, who would of thought you could fill a damn stadium with Jews opposed to Israel? I did, because zionism is the antithesis of Judaism.





And fwiw, and for those who think that NK does not reflect traditional judaism, this is way bigger than NK.


----------



## Votto (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder how many Jews voted for Hitler.


----------



## Challenger (Aug 18, 2017)

Votto said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> ...


More than you might think...Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia


----------



## Votto (Aug 18, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



The seemingly ironic fact that a Jewish association advocated loyalty to the Nazi programme gave rise to a contemporary joke about Naumann and his followers ending their meeting by giving the Nazi salute and shouting "Down With Us!".

Hilarious!


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Wow, who would of thought you could fill a damn stadium with Jews opposed to Israel? I did, because zionism is the antithesis of Judaism.
> 
> View attachment 144417
> 
> And fwiw, and for those who think that NK does not reflect traditional judaism, this is way bigger than NK.


And?  That still doesn't change the numbers in comparison to world Jewry.  They are a cult with warped interpretation which 99.9 % of Jews disagree with. In other words you are once again spouting meaningless gibberish

  Here's a Christian cult that 99.9% of Christians disagreed with:

*Jonestown*

The Peoples Temple was formed in Indianapolis, Indiana, in 1955. Though its roots and teachings shared more with biblical church and Christian revival movements than with Marxism, it purported to practice what it called "apostolic socialism".


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Roudy said:


> And? That still doesn't change the numbers in comparison to world Jewry. They are a cult with warped interpretation which 99.9 % of Jews disagree with.



*Mod Edit -- do not change names in quote boxes or alert tags. . *

You are full of crap as usual. The vast majority of Jews do NOT live in israel. In fact, most Jews won't even visit.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > And? That still doesn't change the numbers in comparison to world Jewry. They are a cult with warped interpretation which 99.9 % of Jews disagree with.
> ...


Fact is, dufus, neither does this cult NK live in Israel!  So what is your point again? 

  What would you know about Jews, Achmed, almost every Jew I know supports and has visited Israel numerous times.  There is even a Birthright program that sends young Jews to Israel when they turn a certain age.  That is because Zionism is an integral part of the Jewish faith.  You are having a major hissyfit trying to deal with the truth and reality.

*Birthright Israel*
*Taglit-Birthright Israel* (Hebrew: תגלית‎‎), also known as *Birthright Israel* or simply *Birthright*, is a not-for-profit educational organization that sponsors free ten-day heritage trips to Israel for young adults of Jewish heritage, aged 18–26.

_Taglit_ is the Hebrew word for _discovery._During their trip, participants, most of whom are visiting Israel for the first time, are encouraged to discover new meaning in their personal Jewish identityand connection to Jewish history and culture.

Since trips began in the winter of 1999, more than 500,000 young people from 64 countries have participated in the program. About 80% of participants are from the United States and Canada.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Roudy said:


> And? That still doesn't change the numbers in comparison to world Jewry. They are a cult with warped interpretation which 99.9 % of Jews disagree with.


I showed this was a lie as the vast majority of Jews do not live in israel and even with their stupid birthright israel program, most Jews have never gone.

Why the hell would they? The modern terrorist state of israel has nothing to do with Judaism.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > And? That still doesn't change the numbers in comparison to world Jewry. They are a cult with warped interpretation which 99.9 % of Jews disagree with.
> ...


What are you babbling now? NK is a cult based in US that comprises a fraction of 1% of world Jewry.  They are a small cult that is laughed at.

Israel has the largest concentration and population of the 15 million Jews in the world today, followed by the US.  I'd say sending half a million young American Jews to Israel in the Birthright program (40,000 per year!) which does not include other Jews who go there regularly, as well as the millions of American Christians who visit and support Israel on a yearly basis, says you're full of shit. 

In other words 99.9% of Jews and majority of US Christians today support Israel, and that is because they see Zionism an integral and inseparable part of the Jewish /  Christian faith.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Less than 1/2 of those who call themselves Jews live in israel. They are the minority. But simple math is not even taught at your temple.

And this is way bigger than NK...


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Less than 1/2 of those who call themselves Jews live in israel. They are the minority. But simple math is not even taught at your temple.
> 
> And this is way bigger than NK...
> 
> View attachment 144464


What is your point?  That is the gathering of the NK cult in the US.

You can fill thousands of stadiums like that with Jews that do support Israel. Here's the AIPAC meeting in 2017 packed with Jews and supporters of Israel, at the highest levels of society and govt.  Deal with it!


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Roudy said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Less than 1/2 of those who call themselves Jews live in israel. They are the minority. But simple math is not even taught at your temple.
> ...


Those people might call themselves Jews, but what they support is the antithesis of Judaism.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


Ha ha ha says who, you?!  Oh sorry I forgot you and a bunch of these NK nutjob cultists that hang out with IslamoNazis. I stand corrected.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Roudy said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


*Judaism  believes in One G-d who revealed the Torah. It affirms Divine Providence and, accordingly, views Jewish exile as a punishment for sin. Redemption may be achieved solely through prayer and penance. Judaism calls upon all Jews to obey the Torah in its entirety including the commandment to be patriotic citizens.

Zionism  rejects the Creator, His Revelation and reward and punishment. Among its fruits are the persecution of the Palestinian people and the spiritual and physical endangering of the Jewish people. It encourages treasonous, dual loyalty among unsuspecting Jews throughout the world. At its root Zionism sees reality as barren and desacralized. It is the antithesis of Torah Judaism.

What is Zionism? Judaism versus Zionism*

True of false?


----------



## Shusha (Aug 18, 2017)

False.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Zionism  rejects the Creator, His Revelation and reward and punishment. Among its fruits are the persecution of the Palestinian people and the spiritual and physical endangering of the Jewish people. It encourages treasonous, dual loyalty among unsuspecting Jews throughout the world. At its root Zionism sees reality as barren and desacralized. It is the antithesis of Torah Judaism.



*Hardly any of this is even true. Zionism NEVER rejected the Creator..*  That's ludicrous. And you've posted it now about 4 times. Will not make Zionists into Atheists.  Which is the claim.  It's hysteria and demagoguery.  

These marginalized Ortho Jews you're relying on just don't RECOGNIZE govt of man.. THAT'S their issue. If one of them has a 'dream' and God comes to him and says - --- "Today is the day you will lead my people to Zion" --- they'd all go to Israel and claim it as God's will.. 

That's not the RATIONAL basis for Zionism. 

And your entire tactic of trying to embarass Jews for their support of the Israel is puny and ineffective. LARGELY because  Israel is not just supported by Jews. It exists. It is a nation. It IS successful. And it has support (within limits) outside the Jewish people. 

In FACT -- the most zealous support for Israel in America comes from the Christian evangelists. Jews don't "flock" too well. We argue over everything. And in the case of Israel, we argue over POLITICAL direction, but not about it's existence. Deal with it..


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> *Zionism NEVER rejected the Creator..*


False.

Otherwise there is no way they would take the holy land by force. G-d is really clear here in our Torah. We are to remain in our diaspora until He returns us and furthermore, we are to be loyal citizens wherever we reside.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> And your entire tactic of trying to embarass Jews for their support of the Israel is puny and ineffective.


They should be embarrassed. They are liars, thieves and murderers, the antithesis of Jews. And are embarrassed that you can't spell embarrass?



flacaltenn said:


> LARGELY because Israel is not just supported by Jews.


As I previously explained a few times. Most who call themselves Jews do NOT live in israel. They are the minority.

The Christian zionist thing is a whole other thread and is as dangerous to real Christians as it is to real Jews.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > *Zionism NEVER rejected the Creator..*
> ...



So Louie -- what branch of Judaism do you practice? Are they ALL atheists "rejecting the Creator"?  Grow up. And man up about your "Jewishness".. It's sad to watch the fraud...


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> We are to remain in our diaspora until He returns us and furthermore, we are to be loyal citizens wherever we reside.



*Where did you get this idea?  To WHOM did God speak on the diaspora?*  Do you have a link? 

Were the Jews that built the 1st and 2nd Temples in Jerusalem Athesists Louie?   How many Jewish Atheists are there exactly?


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> *Where did you get this idea? To WHOM did God speak on the diaspora?* Do you have a link?


Dude, the Torah? Go to your temple and ask a rabbi. Sheesh.




flacaltenn said:


> Were the Jews that built the 1st and 2nd Temples in Jerusalem Athesists Louie?


No idea if those temples were ever built. They are likely just stories.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > *Where did you get this idea? To WHOM did God speak on the diaspora?* Do you have a link?
> ...



Oh c'mon man. I've read the Torah. The Diaspora is NOT in there. At least not the recent one. And for old timey diasporas -- the Jews found their way back to the Holy Land without "rejecting God"..  

Does YOUR Torah have a 20th Century appendix or something?


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> No idea if those temples were ever built. They are likely just stories.



And YET -- you're a Torah expert?


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

I know what it says in the Torah and much from the talmud as well. Religious text is not historical fact. Sorry.

Beyond being required to remain peacefully in our diaspora, Jews are not permitted to lie, steal or murder... bottom line.

This is another really simple one, but right over your head as usual.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Beyond being required to remain peacefully in our diaspora, Jews are not permitted to lie, steal or murder... bottom line.



Peacefully? In Nazi Germany? Where in the Bible is that commandment? Peacefully in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan?  Oh there it is !!! Book of Louie Chapter 8 --- Verse 88...

You reject all history in the Bible -- you're tossing 75% of it in the trash bin...


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Peacefully? In Nazi Germany?


Exactly. G-d was clear. Had our people behaved differently throughout history, so much Jewish suffering could have been avoided. We have not been returned by G-d because we have not satisfied the covenant. That, in a nutshell, is how different zionism is from Judaism.



flacaltenn said:


> You reject all history in the Bible -- you're tossing 75% of it in the trash bin...


It is not an historical reference or considered one by any serious historian.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 18, 2017)

Votto said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
> ...


Like the voters in the US have not been duped.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

You should read this whole thing, but here is an excerpt...

*...The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances. Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.


The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism.


The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.


 Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.


According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word. There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law in any way. In fact even the greatest rabbi or as Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet" [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no right to distort or amend even one letter of the Torah.


Rabbi Blau stated shortly before his death that the acceptance by the United Nations of the Zionist state as a member state constituted a grave injustice to the Jewish people. Neturei Karta hope that this great error will be corrected at the earliest opportunity. The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often pretend to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on our behalf. Only those rabbis who have not been affected or influenced by the poison of Zionism, can be considered the spiritual leaders of today's Jewry.


The world must know that the Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people! 
What is the Neturei Karta?*


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I know what it says in the Torah and much from the talmud as well. Religious text is not historical fact. Sorry.
> 
> Beyond being required to remain peacefully in our diaspora, Jews are not permitted to lie, steal or murder... bottom line.
> 
> This is another really simple one, but right over your head as usual.


Well there you have it...you aren't Jewish for sure.  Cause all you've done in this thread is lie about Zionism, Jews, Judaism, and the Torah.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Roudy said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > I know what it says in the Torah and much from the talmud as well. Religious text is not historical fact. Sorry.
> ...


Use the quote function to show where I lied.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> You should read this whole thing, but here is an excerpt...
> 
> *...The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances. Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.
> 
> ...


There ya go repeating an irrelvant cult's propaganda for the thousandth time.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Roudy said:


> You lie all the time Loo Loo. This whole thread is a fraud.


Yet, in the now 23 pages you have disputed none of it with any facts at all.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > You lie all the time Loo Loo. This whole thread is a fraud.
> ...



*Yet -- We've determined that you're a BIG FAN of Theocracies.*  Ya know what I'm saying Louie?? 

That's really what you're supporting with this "denying God" part. Imagine that. A "jew" who doesn't know if the Temples ever existed.. Relies on mangled interpretations of Scripture --* praising the folks that want a Jewish Theocracy in place of the State of Israel.  Wants a MORE Jewish state than what exists. 
*
But only if God comes and speaks to you. 

Think you should take a time-out and figure out what you really are.. Before you damage yourself further..


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> *Yet -- We've determined that you're a BIG FAN of Theocracies.* Ya know what I'm saying Louie??
> 
> That's really what you're supporting with this "denying God" part. Imagine that. A "jew" who doesn't know if the Temples ever existed.. Relies on mangled interpretations of Scripture --* praising the folks that want a Jewish Theocracy in place of the State of Israel. Wants a MORE Jewish state than what exists.
> *
> But only if God comes and speaks to you.


I said none of that. And how is not lying, stealing or murdering mangling scripture? You know nothing, so you lie.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Wherein lies the problem...
Louie does not posts opinions, he posts facts...which are artifacts and easily dismissed.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I know what it says in the Torah and much from the talmud as well. Religious text is not historical fact. Sorry.
> 
> Beyond being required to remain peacefully in our diaspora, Jews are not permitted to lie, steal or murder... bottom line.



Yet you purposely omitted the Talmudic statement where it specifies that when the nations overly abuse the Jew, aka Holocaust, the Jew may offend the nations and return to Israel.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Yet you purposely omitted the Talmudic statement where it specifies that when the nations overly abuse the Jew, aka Holocaust, the Jew may offend the nations and return to Israel.


Awesome! Seriously! Please post it as I am unfamiliar with that.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


Wow!  You got that one totally wrong, Israel is earned through learning Torah, exile and/or *suffering*.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > *Yet -- We've determined that you're a BIG FAN of Theocracies.* Ya know what I'm saying Louie??
> ...



You really don't understand your own topic then do you? NK and the VERY RARE Messianic Jew cults are doing what ISIS is doing. The modern concept of nation states is total garbage to them. They LUST for a theocracy. 

You think these people are brilliant and support them. I ask you again -- Do you LOVE theocracies Louie??
Think there should an Islamic State and a totally non-secular Jewish state?


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Yet you purposely omitted the Talmudic statement where it specifies that when the nations overly abuse the Jew, aka Holocaust, the Jew may offend the nations and return to Israel.
> ...


Three Oaths - Wikipedia
Read this section...*Zionist arguments that consider the Three Oaths[edit]*
Of course you're no familiar with it, you piece of garbage.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> You really don't understand your own topic then do you? NK and the VERY RARE Messianic Jew cults are doing what ISIS is doing. The modern concept of nation states is total garbage to them. They LUST for a theocracy.


OMG, you could not be more wrong. They want a one state democratic Palestine.



flacaltenn said:


> You think these people are brilliant and support them. I ask you again -- Do you LOVE theocracies Louie??
> Think there should an Islamic State and a totally non-secular Jewish state?


Sorry, you are baiting me off topic and I wont go for it.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Yet you purposely omitted the Talmudic statement where it specifies that when the nations overly abuse the Jew, aka Holocaust, the Jew may offend the nations and return to Israel.
> ...


Plus, you stupid piece of shit, the three oaths, as stated *only* in the *midrash*, are *not* halachily binding.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > You really don't understand your own topic then do you? NK and the VERY RARE Messianic Jew cults are doing what ISIS is doing. The modern concept of nation states is total garbage to them. They LUST for a theocracy.
> ...


NK wants a *Torah *based Israel.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Wiki is not the talmud, ignoramus. Now post what you claimed was in the talmud *from the talmud.*


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


It was my mistake.
*You* stated the 3 oaths were in the Talmud.
As *usual*, you were *wrong*.
They're in the *midrash*, and the midrash is *never* used to determine law.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Never said that either, illiterate. You brought them up and posted a wiki instead of the talmudic verse.

Still looking forward to you backing that up.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

I think you've said 4 or 6 in this thread that "WE" can only have a Jewish State if it run TOTALLY thru Rabbinic Administration. You're IDENTIFYING with a bunch of THEOCRATS.. They want the reincarnation of the Temple and the Rule of Jewish law.

Tell me how you decided to join "them"..  Were you like a rebellious Reform Schule kid that got suspended or something?


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


You did state that; it's like a page or 2 back.
You keep bringing up the NK who are using a non legally binding midrash and though it were legally binding.
You can't hide from the fact that you keep quoting people as though you know what they are talking about.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> I think you've said 4 or 6 in this thread that "WE" can only have a Jewish State if it run TOTALLY thru Rabbinic Administration.


Use the quote function.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


As usual you can't handle the fact that the NK is not quoting law.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Hmmmm, you still don't get it. Flac doesn't either. All Jews know that lying, thieving and murdering are antithetical to the concepts in our torah.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I think you've said 4 or 6 in this thread that "WE" can only have a Jewish State if it run TOTALLY thru Rabbinic Administration.
> ...



Not doing ANYTHING for you if you don't answer the questions. Spent enough time trying to help you figure out why you're pushing stuff that you really don't understand. Like the END GAME of the NK Jews that YOU consider yourself one of.  While telling every other Jew that if they support a semi-secular state of Israel that they are god-less. ARE YOU A BIG FAN of THEOCRACIES ????  Simple question..


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


So all of the nations that were displaced after WWI and WWII should return to their pre-war land?
Think of the chaos.
And I see you don't approve of the UN or of Jews defending themselves.

Are you inferring that of someone came to kill you, you wouldn't defend yourself.
Because the Torah & Talmud mandate defending yourself against potential murderers.
Yes...I know you didn't know that...because it's in the Torah.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


If you wont use the quote function and prove I said what you claim, then there is nothing else to say. You create your own argument from lies and back nothing up. Show me where on the NK site where they call for a Jewish theocracy. You wont, you will find them calling ONLY for a democratic, one state of Palestine. 

And then show me anywhere in the entire history of Judaism (pre-zionism) where G-d tells us to take the holy land by force. Inderpendent tried to claim this was in the talmud, but can provide no proof of that. Can you?


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> OMG, you could not be more wrong. They want a one state democratic Palestine.



That's real funny Louie.. You have NO FUCKING concept of what your topic is. If you think the NK Jews are waiting on God so that they can free Palestinians --- you're deluded. 

These remote sects of belief *DON'T DO Democracies*. They are Theocrats. Can't be BOTHERED with ANYTHING to do with running a secular state. 



louie888 said:


> Sorry, you are baiting me off topic and I wont go for it.



This IS your freaking topic Louie. You just can't discuss it...


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


There is a precedent...Joshua.
Show me where God says to buy the land back.
You're asking for a negative argument because the midrash does not specify how to go back, whether by force or not.
You keep quoting your own version "scripture" so the onus is on *you*.\

I only said "Talmud" because I'm fucking exhausted from work; you see, unlike you, I actually work.
It's not in the Talmud, you fucking retard, it's in the midrash, so stop hiding behind the fact that NK are pulling bullshit out of their asses.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> That's real funny Louie.. You have NO FUCKING concept of what your topic is. If you think the NK Jews are waiting on God so that they can free Palestinians --- you're deluded.
> 
> These remote sects of belief *DON'T DO Democracies*. They are Theocrats. Can't be BOTHERED with ANYTHING to do with running a secular state.


You don't unless you can show me in scripture where G-d said to take the holy land and murder his children that wont leave.

I can show you where they call for a one state democratic Palestine. Show me where they call for a Jewish theocracy... wait... you can't... you just like to argue things you know nothing about.

While you are at it, show me you understand this topic and show me anywhere in the entire history of Judaism (pre-zionism) where G-d tells us to take the holy land by force. Inderpendent tried to claim this was in the talmud, but can provide no proof of that. Can you?


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

Neturei Karta - Wikipedia

A Torah based Israel.
And there are a whole 5,000 of them.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > That's real funny Louie.. You have NO FUCKING concept of what your topic is. If you think the NK Jews are waiting on God so that they can free Palestinians --- you're deluded.
> ...


I said the Talmud by mistake, so cut the shit, you psycho.
It's in the midrash and I'm calling for you to be banned if you don't stop misquoting my correction.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> I said the Talmud by mistake, so cut the shit, you psycho.
> It's in the midrash and I'm calling for you to be banned if you don't stop misquoting my correction.


Show me in the midrash.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

So Louie... I gotta ask at this point. DO YOU KNOW what a Theocracy is? Or as Indeependent pulled from their site -- what a "Torah Based Israel" would be like? 

You think the Palestinians are totally down with a "Torah Based Israel"???  

3 questions. Need 3 answers here.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I said the Talmud by mistake, so cut the shit, you psycho.
> ...


*You* show me because *you're* the one who's using it.
I Linked to the Wiki page that you obviously didn't read.
In fact, I don't believe you really read any rebuttal anyone provides.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> So Louie... I gotta ask at this point. DO YOU KNOW what a Theocracy is? Or as Indeependent pulled from their site -- what a "Torah Based Israel" would be like?


For gawdsakes! It was from wiki! That is not from their site which is extensive.

You are way behind in the question count. Lotsa catchin up for you, bud.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > So Louie... I gotta ask at this point. DO YOU KNOW what a Theocracy is? Or as Indeependent pulled from their site -- what a "Torah Based Israel" would be like?
> ...


Provide a Link to their site as Google is not returning one.
I'll read the site after Shabbos.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.

nuteri karta - Google Search


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Show me where they call for a Jewish theocracy... wait... you can't... you just like to argue things you know nothing about.



You didn't answer the questions. What do they mean by a "Torah based Israel"??  You think the Palestinians look forward to one big happy "Torah based" Jewish state?


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

And this is what they say as opposed to your lies.

*We hope and pray for a quick and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. We hope to live together in peace in the Holy Land under a Palestinian rulership of the entire land.*
Judaism rejects the Zionist state


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.
> 
> nuteri karta - Google Search



Didn't read that link of your own either --- didya?  Answer the questions..


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.
> ...


Uhhhhh, this did not clear up your confusion?

*We hope and pray for a quick and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. We hope to live together in peace in the Holy Land under a Palestinian rulership of the entire land.*
Judaism rejects the Zionist state


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Who decides on borders and LAW in this "Palestinian" rulership? Is the law based on TORAH or the Koran? Who gets the seat at the UN? Who gets to SPEAK for Palestine? You really think that HAMAS is cool with this? 



these are bunch of ULTRA naive nuts. They don't CARE about governing or a Nation State. And this whole juvenile concept of theirs is a blood bath waiting to happen.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.
> 
> nuteri karta - Google Search


For some reason Google spelled niturei different on my Google Chrome.

Judaism is not Zionism
Too bad this page on their site is not based on any Torah or Talmudic statements.
Which is why they provide zero Link to any Torah, Talmudic or Rabbinical literature on the topic.
Once again, you have provided zero Jewish authoritative law to back up your agenda.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.
> 
> nuteri karta - Google Search



I love this paragraph...
"However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!"
And not one quote or Link.
Because they're full of shit.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > You can't even use google and you are on here daily. That explains a lot in itself.
> ...


No way to seperate Zionism from the Torah.

Religious Jews believe that "Eretz Yisrael" (the Land of Israel) was promised to the ancient Israelites by God, and the right of the Jews to the land is permanent and inalienable. To generations of diaspora Jews, Jerusalem has been a symbol of the Holy Land and of their return to it, as promised by God in numerous Biblical prophecies. Rabbi Kook's theological answer gave Zionism a religious legitimation: "Zionism was not merely a political movement by secular Jews. It was actually a tool of God to promote His divine scheme, and to initiate the return of the Jews to their homeland – the land He promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God wants the children of Israel to return to their home in order to establish a Jewish sovereign state in which Jews could live according to the laws of Torah and Halakha, and commit the Mitzvot of Eretz Israel (these are religious commandments which can be performed only in the Land of Israel). Moreover, to cultivate the Land of Israel was a Mitzvah by itself, and it should be carried out. Therefore, settling Israelis an obligation of the religious Jews, and helping Zionism is actually following God's will."[3]




Bnei Akiva youth movement, combining Torah and work
The first rabbis to support Zionism were Yehuda Shlomo Alkalai and Zvi Hirsch Kalischer. They argued that the change in the status of Western Europe's Jews following emancipation was the first step toward redemption (גאולה), and that, therefore, one must hasten the messianic salvation by a natural salvation – whose main pillars are the Kibbutz Galuyot ("Gathering of the Exiles"), the return to Eretz Israel, agricultural work (עבודת אדמה), and the revival of the everyday use of the Hebrew language.

The Mizrachi organization was established in 1902 in Vilna at a world conference of Religious Zionists. It operates a youth movement, Bnei Akiva, which was founded in 1929. Mizrachi believes that the Torah should be at the centre of Zionism, a sentiment expressed in the Mizrachi Zionist slogan _Am Yisrael B'Eretz Yisrael al pi Torat Yisrael_ ("The people of Israel in the land of Israel according to the Torah of Israel"). It also sees Jewish nationalism as a tool for achieving religious objectives. Mizrachi was the first official Religious Zionist party. It also built a network of religious schools that exist to this day.

In 1937-1948, the Religious Kibbutz Movement established three settlement blocs of three kibbutzim each. The first was in the Beit Shean Valley, the second was in the Hebron mountains south of Bethlehem (known as Gush Etzion), and the third was in the western Negev. Kibbutz Yavne was founded in the center of the country as the core of a fourth bloc that came into being after the establishment of the state.[4]


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

*Zionism and the Formation of the State of Israel*
The Jewish people never gave up hope that we would someday return to our home in Israel. That hope is expressed in the song Ha-Tikvah (The Hope), the anthem of the Zionist movement and the state of Israel.



Kol od baleivav p'nima 
Nefesh Y'hudi homiya
Ul'fa-atey mizrach kadima
Ayin L'Tziyon tzofiya
Od lo avda tikvateynu 
Hatikva bat sh'not alpayim 
Lih'yot am chofshi b'artzenu 
Eretz Tziyon v'yirushalayim.
Lih'yot am chofshi b'artzenu 
Eretz Tziyon v'yirushalayim. 

As long as deep within the heart 
The Jewish soul is warm
And toward the edges of the east
An eye to Zion looks
Our hope is not yet lost,
The hope of two thousand years
To be a free people in our own land
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem.
To be a free people in our own land
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem. 

But for a long time, this desire for our homeland was merely a vague hope without any concrete plans to achieve it. In the late 1800s, Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann founded Zionism, a political movement dedicated to the creation of a Jewish state. They saw a state of Israel as a necessary refuge for Jewish victims of oppression, where pogroms were decimating the Jewish population. 

The name "Zionism" comes from the word "Zion," which was the name of a stronghold in Jerusalem. Over time, the term "Zion" came to be applied to Jerusalem in general, and later to the Jewish idea of utopia.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


Again does anybody care what these nutjobs think? No!  Certainly not 99.9% of the world's Jews.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > You lie all the time Loo Loo. This whole thread is a fraud.
> ...



Well, here are some facts vs your NK garbage. 

Judaism 101: The Land of Israel
*The Promised Land*

The history of the Jewish people begins with Abraham, and the story of Abraham begins when G-d tells him to leave his homeland, promising Abraham and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson, whose descendants are the Jewish people. The land is often referred to as the Promised Land because of G-d's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham. 

The land is described repeatedly in the Torah as a good land and "a land flowing with milk and honey" (e.g., Ex. 3:8). This description may not seem to fit well with the desert images we see on the nightly news, but let's keep in mind that the land was repeatedly abused by conquerors who were determined to make the land uninhabitable for the Jews. In the few decades since the Jewish people regained control of the land, we have seen a tremendous improvement in its agriculture. Israeli agriculture today has a very high yield. 

Jews have lived in this land continuously from the time of its original conquest by Joshua more than 3200 years ago until the present day, though Jews were not always in political control of the land, and Jews were not always the majority of the land's population. 

The land of Israel is central to Judaism. A substantial portion of Jewish law is tied to the land of Israel, and can only be performed there. Some rabbis have declared that it is a mitzvah (commandment) to take possession of Israel and to live in it (relying on Num. 33:53). The Talmud indicates that the land itself is so holy that merely walking in it can gain you a place in the World to Come. Prayers for a return to Israel and Jerusalem are included in daily prayers as well as many holiday observances and special events. 

Living outside of Israel is viewed as an unnatural state for a Jew. The world outside of Israel is often referred to as "galut," which is usually translated as "diaspora" (dispersion), but a more literal translation would be "exile" or "captivity." When we live outside of Israel, we are living in exile from our land.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

Got to add another unanswerable question to Louie here. I don't expect an answer.

You've ridiculed the notion that Jews can just return to and stake a claim in the Holy Land because "God willed it". You've done several threads with this theme. Supposedly -- it's so easy a child can see it.

My question is -- how come in THIS THREAD -- and in your Sigline --- you're pushing a radical, small, extremely naive group of Messianic Jews  that's waiting for God to tell them to return and stake a claim in the Holy Land.. 

    Makes my head spin.  How many sides of that argument are you on Louie? You think if God tells NK to return to Zion -- they have a RIGHT to do that? Or not?

Won't get an answer.  Pretty sure.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Got to add another unanswerable question to Louie here. I don't expect an answer.


Based on what you tell me, I must respond to you, straw man arguments be damned. So, here we go...



flacaltenn said:


> You've ridiculed the notion that Jews can just return to and stake a claim in the Holy Land because "God willed it".


Use the quote function as I can't respond to what you claim I said.



flacaltenn said:


> You've done several threads with this theme. Supposedly -- it's so easy a child can see it.


It is easy even for a young child to know that thieving and murder is wrong and to stay on topic... THE TORAH IS CLEAR HERE!



flacaltenn said:


> My question is -- how come in THIS THREAD -- and in your Sigline --- you're pushing a radical, small, extremely naive group of Messianic Jews that's waiting for God to tell them to return and stake a claim in the Holy Land..


I am not doing that. I am explaining how Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites. It comes down to the question THAT YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER. I would be glad to start a thread with this simple question, but you'll probably freak out about that too.

*SHOW ME ANY OF OUR RABBIS OR SAGES, PRIOR TO ZIONISM THAT EVEN SUGGESTED TAKING THE HOLY LAND BY FORCE!*

If you know 1/2 of what you pretend to know, you already KNOW that you can't.



flacaltenn said:


> Makes my head spin. How many sides of that argument are you on Louie? You think if God tells NK to return to Zion -- they have a RIGHT to do that? Or not?


You have again created a straw man to argue with while pretending to argue with me. Use the quote function!

If Judaism is correct, then when G-d feels like we have satisfied our covenant, He, and He alone will return us* - IN PEACE - *TO OUR PROMISED LAND. He will not have his chosen people, lying, stealing, let alone murdering his children that have darker skin and believe in an evolved belief systems from Judaism, be that Christianity or Islam. This is not about NK, it is about traditional Judaism for 1000s of years!

Answer the question and see this for yourself.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I am not doing that. I am explaining how Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites.



Of course you've argued this both ways. Wrong to return and take land just because God tells you to return. But for NK it's totally OK to returni and claim space in the Holy Land because God WILL tell them to.. How do you suppose all the Jews are gonna fit in Israel if God tells them to return under NK's terms? 

Does NK have a plan for governing? For defending themselves against Hamas, ISIS, and other threats? When they post that plan --- you let us know.  OK??


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Of course you've argued this both ways. Wrong to return and take land just because God tells you to return. But for NK it's totally OK to returni and claim space in the Holy Land because God WILL tell them to.. How do you suppose all the Jews are gonna fit in Israel if God tells them to return under NK's terms?


Straw man, I never said that (use the quote function) and you still did not answer THE question.



flacaltenn said:


> Does NK have a plan for governing? For defending themselves against Hamas, ISIS, and other threats? When they post that plan --- you let us know. OK??


What topic is this and this might get deleted for reposting, but I just explained...

*If Judaism is correct, then when G-d feels like we have satisfied our covenant, He, and He alone will return us - IN PEACE - TO OUR PROMISED LAND. He will not have his chosen people, lying, stealing, let alone murdering his children that have darker skin and believe in an evolved belief systems from Judaism, be that Christianity or Islam. This is not about NK, it is about traditional Judaism for 1000s of years!*


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you've argued this both ways. Wrong to return and take land just because God tells you to return. But for NK it's totally OK to returni and claim space in the Holy Land because God WILL tell them to.. How do you suppose all the Jews are gonna fit in Israel if God tells them to return under NK's terms?
> ...



so now after 20 pages of QUOTING NK and showing pics of NK -- it's no longer about NK..  Got it..


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> so now after 20 pages of QUOTING NK and showing pics of NK -- it's no longer about NK.. Got it..


Good.

You must now understand that this is about how traditional judaism for 1000s of years is the antithesis of zionism and their lying, thieving and murder.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 18, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > so now after 20 pages of QUOTING NK and showing pics of NK -- it's no longer about NK.. Got it..
> ...



Your new statement is MORE bogus than your old one. This is not an improvement.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 18, 2017)

Why can't you answer the question?

If you understood this topic, you would answer or admit that you cannot.


----------



## louie888 (Aug 19, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> So Louie... I gotta ask at this point. DO YOU KNOW what a Theocracy is? Or as Indeependent pulled from their site -- what a "Torah Based Israel" would be like?
> 
> You think the Palestinians are totally down with a "Torah Based Israel"???
> 
> 3 questions. Need 3 answers here.


Maybe, I was not clear.

1) Yes.

2) Inderpendent pulled nothing from their site. This might be a literacy issue on your part. He actually said, after I showed him how to use google, that he would return here after the sabbath, and after he actually reads their site.

Do you understand the difference?

3) If Judaism is correct, I think that if G-d returns us, then not only the Palestinians, but the entire world will be totally down.

As far as the "Torah Based Israel" shtick you seem to be stuck on, I am assuming that you have confused the Jews at Neturei Karta, literally "Guardians of the City," with the white supremacist psychopaths at Chabad/Lubavitch.

As explained, *Neturei Karta argues for a peaceful dismantling of the zionist regime that would culminate in a one state democracy in Palestine.*


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 19, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > So Louie... I gotta ask at this point. DO YOU KNOW what a Theocracy is? Or as Indeependent pulled from their site -- what a "Torah Based Israel" would be like?
> ...



Close tools of Iran. Condemned Dead Jews in terrorists acts by Islamic Radicals in Africa as DESERVING it for supporting Zionism. Naive enough to believe that their presence in a Muslim Koran run Palestine would be safe and peaceful. They're despicable people. For giving cover to Ayatollahs and Louis Farrakan and other deplorables.

THAT's what is in the Wiki. Along with this. Where they IDENTIFY AS A THEOCRACY in choosing of their name.



> The name _Neturei Karta_ literally means "Guardians of the City" in Aramaic and is derived from a narrative on page 76c of Tractate Hagigah in the Jerusalem Talmud. There it is related that Rabbi Judah haNasi sent two rabbis on a tour of inspection:
> 
> *In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but its destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chapter 127.[6]*



You LIKE the concept of Theocracies Louie? Even one's designed by the most NAIVE and UN-secular group of people on the Planet?


----------



## louie888 (Aug 19, 2017)

You seem to be stuck on stupid here. Nowhere have they called for a theocracy. You are going to have to find that on their extensive site if you wish to keep promoting that idea.

I think you confuse *the peaceful dismantling of the zionist regime that would culminate in a one state democracy in Palestine*, which is what they actually say,  with something you read on the internet.


----------



## rylah (Aug 19, 2017)

louie888 said:


> *SHOW ME ANY OF OUR RABBIS OR SAGES, PRIOR TO ZIONISM THAT EVEN SUGGESTED TAKING THE HOLY LAND BY FORCE!*
> 
> .



I have. You ducked .post #704
But then again anything You say is EXTREMELY OPPOSITE to what Jewish tradition and law say.

It is FORBIDDEN to discourage the children of  Israel from crossing over to their land.
It is FORBIDDEN to stand and look from aside while a part of Israel fights.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 19, 2017)

louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Got to add another unanswerable question to Louie here. I don't expect an answer.
> ...


Then why was Yehoshua commanded to exterminate the 7 nations of Canaan?


----------

