# Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference



## bluemoon22 (May 31, 2011)

Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?

I found this poll and blog to be an excellent question with some great videos. People go to jail in Germany if they deny the Holocaust, but and in typical Racist fashion the Zionists would like to punish Palestinians for remembering and telling the world it happened.


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## Truthseeker420 (May 31, 2011)

Israel is going to be the death of us all.


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## Sunni Man (May 31, 2011)

The Zionist wants to force people to believe their lies under threat of prison.

 Why are they so afraid to have the Holocaust debated and examined?

 What are they trying to hide??


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## docmauser1 (Jun 2, 2011)

bluemoon22 said:


> _Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?_


Oh, that's simple, of course. As with koran, being, basically a stolen and bastardized jevish bible, nabka is a stolen and bastardized piece of jewish histrory.


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## alexa (Jun 2, 2011)

docmauser1 said:


> bluemoon22 said:
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> 
> > _Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?_
> ...



No one is denying Israel was involved in the Nakba. You religious?


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## docmauser1 (Jun 2, 2011)

alexa said:


> docmauser1 said:
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> > bluemoon22 said:
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Are we talking about palistanian charlatanisms?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Oct 25, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> alexa said:
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I think that it's only in Germany that Holocaust denial is a crime, because Germans are so ashamed of it.  Debating the Nakba is not a crime in Israel.


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> I think that it's only in Germany that Holocaust denial is a crime, because Germans are so ashamed of it.  Debating the Nakba is not a crime in Israel.


It is illegal to ask certain questions about the holocaust  in several "free" countries in Europe that we consider our allies. It is also illegal to question the holocaust in Israel.

The bottom line is this" *Do you want to stop antisemitism?* Become active and advocate for removal of all "holocaust denial" laws. Aside from the fact they are entirely unnecessary, of course they will bring hatred towards Jews because how hard Jews have pushed for these laws on gentiles.

Noone wants to be told what they have to believe. Noone wants to be told what questions they are not allowed to ask. AND NOONE WANTS TO GO TO JAIL FOR ASKING QUESTIONS, THINKING WHAT THEY WANT OR STUDYING A SUBJECT AND THEN WRITING ABOUT IT.

Truth needs no laws to support it. If someone is wrong, educate them with facts.

As dumb as some people are (and we see it right here on this forum) Nakba denial is alive and well and noone has ever been thrown in jail for that. Think.

^^^Day one shit folks!


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

Sunni Man said:


> The Zionist wants to force people to believe their lies under threat of prison.
> 
> Why are they so afraid to have the Holocaust debated and examined?
> 
> What are they trying to hide??


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

The Jews who keep pushing the gentile world to accept laws regarding historical events do this to create antisemitism. Truth needs no legislation to make it truth.


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

I think he was actually playing "Nakba," but thi cartoon sums up about 1/2 the threads here...


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 5, 2017)

louie888 said:


> I think he was actually playing "Nakba," but thi cartoon sums up about 1/2 the threads here...



So you admit the Jews lived there in our infancy?


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## Shusha (Mar 5, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Noone wants to be told what they have to believe. Noone wants to be told what questions they are not allowed to ask. AND NOONE WANTS TO GO TO JAIL FOR ASKING QUESTIONS, THINKING WHAT THEY WANT OR STUDYING A SUBJECT AND THEN WRITING ABOUT IT.



There are dozens of countries with Holocaust denial laws. You have a poor understanding of what these laws actually say and what they prohibit.  Most of these laws incorporate Holocaust denial as a component of more generalized hate speech or incitement to hate laws -- they are not specifically about Holocaust denial.  Though some, Germany is an example, use language which expressly forbids Holocaust denial as part of those laws.  The laws require not only a belief in Holocaust denial, but the publication of such a belief in a manner which is liable to incite hate -- ie publication of printed, radio, television or social media, or a speaking engagement in a public space.  

So you are absolutely INCORRECT when you say that people are told what to believe, or told what questions they are allowed to ask or that they go to jail for asking questions, thinking or studying.  *They go to jail when they use Holocaust denial to incite hatred against Jews in a public arena.  As they should.  *


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
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> > Noone wants to be told what they have to believe. Noone wants to be told what questions they are not allowed to ask. AND NOONE WANTS TO GO TO JAIL FOR ASKING QUESTIONS, THINKING WHAT THEY WANT OR STUDYING A SUBJECT AND THEN WRITING ABOUT IT.
> ...


I don't know if you are ignorant or just lying, but who cares. People have gone to jail for simply questioning the 6 million number that has already been debunked by mainstream historians. I think they changed the Auschwitz plaques back in the 80s.






It's stupid, obvious shit like this that pisses people off. Bottom line here is obvious -  noone wants to choose between what to believe or a prison cell. Get real!

And that is just one mainstream revision out of a list that would take pages.


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## Shusha (Mar 5, 2017)

louie888 said:


> People have gone to jail for simply questioning the 6 million number ...



Examples?


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

Examples? Why don't you do your own research? It is not just the mythical 6 million number. They never made soap out of Jews... or lampshades. Both these once commonly held beliefs are not accepted as fact today by any legitimate historian. I could go on, but let's not forget that while the zionists plan D/plan dalet which was their plan for the extermination of the Palestinians has been discovered and widely decimated, never has a plan from the nazis ever been discovered that discussed the extermination of the Jews. 

And yeah, people have rotted in jail cells for pointing out that uncomfortable truth as well.

And beyond that, you and your ilk are in here every single day denying the Nakba, or in your own words, "inciting hate."


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## RetiredGySgt (Mar 5, 2017)

Golly only 1.5 million were murdered at Auschwitz? How many more at other camps retard?


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## Shusha (Mar 5, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Examples? Why don't you do your own research? ...



LOL.  So you've got not a single example of someone going to jail simply for questioning the numbers.  And yet you believe, entirely devoid of evidence, that people go to jail simply for questioning numbers.  

Tell me, why would you believe something for which you have no evidence?  Perhaps, because it fits your anti-semitic worldview?




> And beyond that, you and your ilk are in here every single day denying the Nakba, or in your own words, "inciting hate."



Where have I ever denied what the Arabs call the Nakba?  Where have I ever incited hate?  Oh wait, I haven't.


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Golly only 1.5 million were murdered at Auschwitz? How many more at other camps retard?


Not sure, genius, but the 6 million number came from the Nuremberg trials now debunked testimony and although historians admitted that the Auschwitz figure was exaggerated by at least 2.5 million, the cabalistic 6 million figures remain UNQUESTIONABLE. 

Oh yeah, that's right, you can question it if you want to risk jail time in so called free democracies that we call our allies.


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## Hollie (Mar 5, 2017)

louie888 said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
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> > Golly only 1.5 million were murdered at Auschwitz? How many more at other camps retard?
> ...



I always find laughable that your alleged "phacts" are typically absent substantiation and accompanied by the "..... because I say so", admonition.


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

Hollie said:


> I always find laughable that your alleged "phacts" are typically absent substantiation and accompanied by the "..... because I say so", admonition.


Absent of substantiation? Like Yehuda Bauer, the Auschwitz State Museum, the Polish government, and Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust Center?

You suck at this stuff. Go back to the 50 other threads where you keep trying to tell us that "A land without a people for a people without a land" is reconcilable with your other idiotic talking point of how Jews bought Palestine from people that never existed.


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## louie888 (Mar 5, 2017)

Denying the Nakba, no biggie, but point how OBVIOUSLY STUPID this is:






And go to Jail. Yeah, that makes sense.


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## Hollie (Mar 5, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
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> > I always find laughable that your alleged "phacts" are typically absent substantiation and accompanied by the "..... because I say so", admonition.
> ...



That was quite a tirade but like all of your hysterical tirades, it's a lot of bluster with no substantiation.


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## louie888 (Mar 6, 2017)

OK, another example: Let's say you post this meme:






In one of these "free" nations who we claim to be allied with...






YOU COULD GO TO JAIL AND NOT SEE YOUR WIFE AND KIDS FOR YEARS!

THINK! You can deny the Nakba or any other part of history and go on with your life. How do you expect the gentiles to not hate for that?


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## Hollie (Mar 6, 2017)

louie888 said:


> OK, another example: Let's say you post this meme:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cutting and pasting the same material for no reason serves what purpose?


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## RetiredGySgt (Mar 6, 2017)

Why would I believe your delusional rants over the eye witness testimony of literally thousands of people?


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## louie888 (Mar 6, 2017)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Why would I believe your delusional rants over the eye witness testimony of literally thousands of people?


Believe what delusional rant. Be specific. I have no idea what I have said that disagrees with "eye witness testimony of literally thousands of people."

And this is legal to post in all the fascist countries that don't allow free speech on WWII:


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## GHook93 (Mar 6, 2017)

bluemoon22 said:


> Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?
> 
> I found this poll and blog to be an excellent question with some great videos. People go to jail in Germany if they deny the Holocaust, but and in typical Racist fashion the Zionists would like to punish Palestinians for remembering and telling the world it happened.



The Holocaust happened and it was genocide and tragic. Denying it is for mental midget antisemites!  

Al Nakba is a vile form of Holocaust denial and extremist antisemitism. It is myth and a falsehood to promote the Muslim genocidal campaign against the Jews. It is on par with the Final Solution!!!


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


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## louie888 (Mar 6, 2017)

GHook93 said:


> The Holocaust happened and it was genocide and tragic. Denying it is for mental midget antisemites!


Every sane person agrees. BUT WE CERTAINLY DO NOT NEED LAWS TO SUPPORT HISTORICAL TRUTH!








GHook93 said:


> Al Nakba is a vile form of Holocaust denial and extremist antisemitism.


Huh? Are ypu daft? The Nakba is the holocaust perpetuated by "Jews" on the Palestinians in 1948.



GHook93 said:


> It is myth and a falsehood to promote the Muslim genocidal campaign against the Jews.


Who does that?



GHook93 said:


> It is on par with the Final Solution!!!


Huh?


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## montelatici (Mar 6, 2017)

GHook93 said:


> bluemoon22 said:
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> > Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?
> ...



If it wasn't so despicable it would be funny.  This nutcase is claiming that recognizing that hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians were killed our expelled from their homeland is antisemitic.  Disgusting group of people, there is no way around it.


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## Shusha (Mar 6, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Every sane person agrees. BUT WE CERTAINLY DO NOT NEED LAWS TO SUPPORT HISTORICAL TRUTH!



Apparently, we do.


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## louie888 (Mar 6, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
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> > Every sane person agrees. BUT WE CERTAINLY DO NOT NEED LAWS TO SUPPORT HISTORICAL TRUTH!
> ...


Why? And just Jewish holocaust truth or all truth...


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## The Sage of Main Street (Mar 6, 2017)

Sunni Man said:


> The Zionist wants to force people to believe their lies under threat of prison.
> 
> Why are they so afraid to have the Holocaust debated and examined?
> 
> What are they trying to hide??


*The Yellow Catastrophe*

 The Paleonasties should be the ones trying to hide it.  The fact that the cowards ran away from a fight, letting the other Arabs die for them, cancels any claim they have to any Israeli territory.  Or maybe it proves that they knew it was never their land anyway.


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## Shusha (Mar 6, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
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Because of rabid anti-semites, as evidenced on this board, who try to continue to "prove" that the Jews have some global conspiracy going on.


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## montelatici (Mar 6, 2017)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Sunni Man said:
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> > The Zionist wants to force people to believe their lies under threat of prison.
> ...



Maybe it proves you don't know what you are talking about.  Were the Jews cowards because they didn't succeed in fighting the Nazis?


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## louie888 (Mar 6, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Because of rabid anti-semites, as evidenced on this board, who try to continue to "prove" that the Jews have some global conspiracy going on.


Who? And so what? It is called free speech and although you prefer fascism, this is America.


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## Shusha (Mar 6, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Who? And so what? It is called free speech and although you prefer fascism, this is America.



And in the civilized world, its called hate speech.  And...

<---- I am Canadian.


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## louie888 (Mar 6, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
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> > Who? And so what? It is called free speech and although you prefer fascism, this is America.
> ...


Hate speech? Like denying the Nakba? And the Palestinians history for centuries that we see each day here? We can handle that crap just fine as you have noticed, with logic and facts.

Take your PC BS and enjoy it with your fascist ilk.


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## Shusha (Mar 6, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
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Who's denying the Nakba?  I haven't seen anyone deny the Nakba.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Mar 7, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
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*Ground Zero at Zurich*

The Swiss are the real ones running the show blamed on Jewish bankers.


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## Hollie (Mar 7, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
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You cartoon cut and pasters have an issue with the "twoof".

While it's a shame the arab-moslem gee-had nakba'ed the bejeezus out of the arab-moslem squatters, the truth will set you free.


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## Challenger (Mar 7, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> docmauser1 said:
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> > alexa said:
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So why don't they open up their archives and resolve the matter once and for all?


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## Challenger (Mar 7, 2017)

louie888 said:


> The Jews who keep pushing the gentile world to accept laws regarding historical events do this to create antisemitism. Truth needs no legislation to make it truth.



Interesting that "anti-semitism" is allegedly on the rise in many if not all of those countries...


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## louie888 (Mar 12, 2017)

Challenger said:


> louie888 said:
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> > The Jews who keep pushing the gentile world to accept laws regarding historical events do this to create antisemitism. Truth needs no legislation to make it truth.
> ...


Of course it is. People don't want to be told what they are allowed to question, to write about, let alone what to believe.

Zionists know this and simply use this as another method to keep antisemitism alive and well.


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## Hollie (Mar 12, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Challenger said:
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"Of course it is. People don't want to be told what they are allowed to question, ..."

Yeah. Bring that up to the prayer leader at your madrassah regarding Mo'tunes and _Crimes against Koranity_


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## Roudy (Mar 13, 2017)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Israel is going to be the death of us all.


If you hide under your desk you won't get hurt when the sky falls.


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## Roudy (Mar 13, 2017)

louie888 said:


> The Jews who keep pushing the gentile world to accept laws regarding historical events do this to create antisemitism. Truth needs no legislation to make it truth.


Maybe because these are countries that know the holocaust best because some of them actively participated in it, and they have records which clearly show.


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## Roudy (Mar 13, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Sunni Man said:
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> > The Zionist wants to force people to believe their lies under threat of prison.
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## Roudy (Mar 13, 2017)

alexa said:


> docmauser1 said:
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Nakba is when Arabs lost the civil war they started themselves, by trying to commit genocide on the Jews in their own holy land.


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## louie888 (Mar 13, 2017)

We are talking about free speech.

Here are the Jews who want to kill free speech...
Holocaust Denial Legislation and the Jews Behind it! [Archive]  - The Phora


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## Roudy (Mar 13, 2017)

louie888 said:


> We are talking about free speech.
> 
> Here are the Jews who want to kill free speech...
> Holocaust Denial Legislation and the Jews Behind it! [Archive]  - The Phora


Hey look, nobody on your IslamoNazi side seems to be objecting about the barbaric treatment of gays, women, and minorities at the hands of Palestinians and other Muslims.  Nor is anybody objecting about the total lack of free speech, and torture and killing of journalists in the Palestinian community and Muslim world in general.  So really, it's none of your business what law a Democratic European country decides to pass to prevent another holocaust from happening as well as keep a lid on hate speech and historical revisionism.  Their country, their laws.

Think about it next time you bray about "free speech".


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## Shusha (Mar 13, 2017)

louie888 said:


> We are talking about free speech.
> 
> Here are the Jews who want to kill free speech...
> Holocaust Denial Legislation and the Jews Behind it! [Archive]  - The Phora



Free speech, the way you mean it, is more and more becoming an American phenomenon -- a uniquely American phenomenon like gun rights and for-profit, user pay medicine.

Much of the rest of the civilized humanized world recognizes that hate speech should be prohibited.


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## NaziMick (Mar 15, 2017)

Not one Jew died in a gas chamber, The Holocau$t is a Lie and a Fraud!


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 20, 2017)

NaziMick said:


> Not one Jew died in a gas chamber, The Holocau$t is a Lie and a Fraud!



Really, then where did my dad's family disappear to?  My sisters, who visited some death camps, said that you can still smell the stench of death in the air, even after so many years.  I guess when you were in high-school, you were spared from seeing the footage of all those emaciated bodies piled on top of each other, like pieces of wood.  Lucky you!


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## yiostheoy (Mar 20, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> NaziMick said:
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> > Not one Jew died in a gas chamber, The Holocau$t is a Lie and a Fraud!
> ...


Why did you resurrect this old tired dead thread ??


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 20, 2017)

yiostheoy said:


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NaziMick replied to this thread only last Wednesday, and his post infuriated me so much that I had to respond to it.


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## teddyearp (Mar 20, 2017)

yiostheoy said:


> Why did you resurrect this old tired dead thread ??


It was screwy louie888.


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## teddyearp (Mar 20, 2017)

Not happy with the several threads created on basically this same subject and the spamming of said threads with the same posts and pictures over and over; and the board allowing it, screwy had to resurrect this one from six years ago to do the same here.


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## louie888 (Mar 20, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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LOL, that's why you bumped it? Because a banned poster cannot respond?


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## Hollie (Mar 20, 2017)

louie888 said:


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He was no more capable than you are.


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## teddyearp (Mar 20, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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So, now you're not admitting that you were the actual culprit to bringing a six year old thread back to life?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 20, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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I didn't "bump" this thread.  That would be you.  And I noticed that the lowlife Nazimick was banned after I had already responded.  Believe me, I'm not afraid of anyone on a message board!


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## rhodescholar (Mar 20, 2017)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Israel is going to be the death of us all.



Really moron?  How so?  

I see arab muslims suicide bombing and committing terrorism all over the world, not jews, you stupid fucking moron.


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## Roudy (Mar 20, 2017)

louie888 said:


> We are talking about free speech.
> 
> Here are the Jews who want to kill free speech...
> Holocaust Denial Legislation and the Jews Behind it! [Archive]  - The Phora


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## louie888 (Mar 20, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Really, then where did my dad's family disappear to?


You claim the only possible place was the gas chamber? Is that it?



ForeverYoung436 said:


> My sisters, who visited some death camps, said that you can still smell the stench of death in the air, even after so many years.


Really? They said that? 

I visited Auschwitz years ago and that simply is not true. Did they even say that or did you make that up for dramatic effect?

I have found from experience that it is exactly these types of Jewish lies that underly much of what you call antisemitism.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> I guess when you were in high-school, you were spared from seeing the footage of all those emaciated bodies piled on top of each other, like pieces of wood.  Lucky you!


Are you claiming that as proof of the gas chambers? Or is that simply thrown in again for sympathy and to exaggerate victimhood?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 21, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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> 
> > Really, then where did my dad's family disappear to?
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Yes, my sisters said that.  So, let me get this straight.  You visited Auschwitz and you deny the Holocaust?  Or just the gas chambers?  And you claim to be Jewish?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 21, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
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I brought up the emaciated bodies piled high, one on top of another, because your friend, NaziMick, claimed that not one Jew died in the Holocaust.  Why do descriptions of the Holocaust seem to offend you, especially when you yourself resurrected this old thread?


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## Humanity (Mar 21, 2017)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Sunni Man said:
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> > The Zionist wants to force people to believe their lies under threat of prison.
> ...



What a ridiculous comment...

Does the same apply to the Jews who ran away from Nazi Germany?


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## Humanity (Mar 21, 2017)

Holocaust denial is for the mentally retarded!

Free speech is one thing, hate speech is something completely different and SHOULD be legislated against!

I recently visited the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin... A very simple but ever so powerful memorial... 

For arguing over how many people were murdered in the Holocaust, it's just another way of denial...

I don't believe the figures are very accurate as it wasn't JUST Jews murdered in the Holocaust...

But it DID happen and I hope that we will never forget this and remember what fascism really is!


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 21, 2017)

Humanity said:


> Holocaust denial is for the mentally retarded!
> 
> Free speech is one thing, hate speech is something completely different and SHOULD be legislated against!
> 
> ...



Yes, of course there were others.  Jews weren't even the first ones.  I believe the mentally and physically disabled were first, followed by political dissidents, homosexuals, and even Catholic priests.  Gypsies and even twins were experimented on.  Poison gas was first used on Russian POW's.


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## Humanity (Mar 21, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Humanity said:
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> 
> > Holocaust denial is for the mentally retarded!
> ...



Absolutely, and that is why arguing over actual numbers is just so ridiculous!

The Holocaust is a VERY black mark on human existence and NEEDS to be remembered for eternity so that, hopefully, it never happens again, to anyone!


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## louie888 (Mar 21, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Yes, my sisters said that.  So, let me get this straight.  You visited Auschwitz and you deny the Holocaust?  Or just the gas chambers?  And you claim to be Jewish?


Look, forever ignorant, try reading what I wrote instead of attempting to attribute beliefs to me which I don't hold - IT'S CLASSLESS!

THERE WERE 3 SIMPLE QUESTIONS THAT YOU SIMPLY RAN FROM.

Here, try again...

1) You claim the only possible place was the gas chamber? Is that it?

2) I visited Auschwitz years ago and that simply is not true. Did they even say that or did you make that up for dramatic effect?

I have found from experience that it is exactly these types of Jewish lies that underly much of what you call antisemitism.

3) Are you claiming that as proof of the gas chambers? Or is that simply thrown in again for sympathy and to exaggerate victimhood?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 21, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, my sisters said that.  So, let me get this straight.  You visited Auschwitz and you deny the Holocaust?  Or just the gas chambers?  And you claim to be Jewish?
> ...



1)  As far as I know, my dad's parents and little brother (and maybe his older sister and brother-in-law) were all evacuated to a death camp on a specific date that dad would commemorate by saying Kaddish (the prayer for the dead).  I believe his other sister committed suicide before the Nazis got to her, and his little niece got her head smashed in.

2)  They said that.

3)  See post # 67 on this thread.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 21, 2017)

BTW, my sister is a Holocaust teacher and I learned things from her, so I'm hardly "ignorant" on this subject.  She became one after her trip to Auschwitz.  What did your trip teach you?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 21, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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> 
> > Yes, my sisters said that.  So, let me get this straight.  You visited Auschwitz and you deny the Holocaust?  Or just the gas chambers?  And you claim to be Jewish?
> ...



Screwy Louie, Benedict Arnold, or whatever you call yourself, I answered 2 of your 3 questions previously, so how is that "running away"?  Now how about you answer my questions to you?


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## fanger (Mar 21, 2017)

_*The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering*_ is a 2000 book by Norman G. Finkelstein, in which Finkelstein argues that the American Jewish establishment exploits the memory of the Nazi Holocaust for political and financial gain, as well as to further the interests of Israel.[1] According to Finkelstein, this "Holocaust industry" has corruptedJewish culture and the authentic memory of the Holocaust.

Finkelstein states that his consciousness of "the Nazi holocaust" is rooted in his parents' experiences in the Warsaw Ghetto; with the exception of his parents themselves, "every family member on both sides was exterminated by the Nazis".[2] Nonetheless, during his childhood, no one ever asked any questions about what his mother and father had suffered. He suggests, "This was not a respectful silence. It was indifference."[2] It was only after the establishment of "the Holocaust industry", he suggests, that outpourings of anguish over the plight of the Jews in World War II began. This ideology in turn served to endow Israel with a status as "'victim' state" despite its "horrendous" human rights record


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## louie888 (Mar 26, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> BTW, my sister is a Holocaust teacher and I learned things from her, so I'm hardly "ignorant" on this subject.  She became one after her trip to Auschwitz.  What did your trip teach you?


You are completely ignorant on this subject, you still have evaded simple questions and the main thing I learned from my visit is that the "gas chamber" they march everyone through after they traumatize us all with for the most part postwar propaganda is the simple FACT that it was once an air-raid shelter that was turned into a "gas chamber" after the war for propaganda purposes.

After questioning, they admitted this.

Of course, if you point this out in supposedly free democratic countries you will be thrown in prison and this agenda is pushed by those who not only flatly deny the Nakba, but who also deny that Palestinians even existed (as they repeat their mantra of an existential threat from people who don't exist lol).


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## Hollie (Mar 26, 2017)

fanger said:


> _*The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering*_ is a 2000 book by Norman G. Finkelstein, in which Finkelstein argues that the American Jewish establishment exploits the memory of the Nazi Holocaust for political and financial gain, as well as to further the interests of Israel.[1] According to Finkelstein, this "Holocaust industry" has corruptedJewish culture and the authentic memory of the Holocaust.
> 
> Finkelstein states that his consciousness of "the Nazi holocaust" is rooted in his parents' experiences in the Warsaw Ghetto; with the exception of his parents themselves, "every family member on both sides was exterminated by the Nazis".[2] Nonetheless, during his childhood, no one ever asked any questions about what his mother and father had suffered. He suggests, "This was not a respectful silence. It was indifference."[2] It was only after the establishment of "the Holocaust industry", he suggests, that outpourings of anguish over the plight of the Jews in World War II began. This ideology in turn served to endow Israel with a status as "'victim' state" despite its "horrendous" human rights record



These long, tedious cut and paste articles you dredge from the bowels of the Internet are really silly.


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## fanger (Mar 26, 2017)

Tell wikipedia. you on the other-hand make up shit


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## Hollie (Mar 26, 2017)

fanger said:


> Tell wikipedia. you on the other-hand make up shit



Wiki didn't cut and paste that long, tedious drivel. You did.


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## fanger (Mar 26, 2017)

Google search who came up with No results found for *“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130*.

And you still havent left a link


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, my sister is a Holocaust teacher and I learned things from her, so I'm hardly "ignorant" on this subject.  She became one after her trip to Auschwitz.  What did your trip teach you?
> ...



Well, my sisters and brothers-in-law said nothing about the gas chambers being fake, and the tour guides admitting they were really air-raid shelters instead.  Humanity, you were at Auschwitz.  What can you testify to?


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## fanger (Mar 26, 2017)

Dr. Piper, Auschwitz State Museum Senior Curator, explains that the room displayed to tourists as an extermination “gas chamber” in its “original state” is actually a postwar reconstruction.


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## louie888 (Mar 26, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Because they were sucking up the propaganda faster than it was being vommited out.

Look... if you don't want to be forever ignorant, then take a look at this...







See how the chimney, the one we here all the horror stories about the smoke billowing out day and night is not even connected to the building? This is BECAUSE it was constructed after the war.

I'm guessing your sister was so traumatized from the propaganda that she never even looked at what was right in front of her eyes.

And yet others have been imprisoned for pointing out the obvious.


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## louie888 (Mar 26, 2017)

Forever? I noticed you popped back on a different thread, but have remained mute here. I assume this is evidence of my point.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Forever? I noticed you popped back on a different thread, but have remained mute here. I assume this is evidence of my point.



1)  Please don't stalk me.

2)  I don't know what you want me to say.  I have never been to Auschwitz, though I have been to the Anne Frank House in Amsterdam.  I believe there were gas chambers--and in any event, a genocide certainly occurred.  You seem to deny this.  Furthermore, you don't seem to have any empathy for the Jews that died in the Holocaust.  So again, what do you want me to say?


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## Humanity (Mar 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Just for clarity....

Do you deny that the Holocaust ever happened or do you just doubt the various figures that are banded about as if they were talking about a few $$?


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## Hollie (Mar 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



I'm never surprised how conspiracy theories haunt every waking moment of people like you.


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## louie888 (Mar 26, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Forever? I noticed you popped back on a different thread, but have remained mute here. I assume this is evidence of my point.
> ...


Stalking? Asking you to follow up on an answer to YOUR OWN QUESTION? ha!

And want you to say? How bout "thank-you for posting the evidence that I asked for?"




Humanity said:


> Just for clarity....
> 
> Do you deny that the Holocaust ever happened or do you just doubt the various figures that are banded about as if they were talking about a few $$?


I don't deny the holocaust, but I do acknowledge major holes in the official story that must be questioned and am completely against throwing people in jail for doing that.

Make no mistake, the infamous Auschwitz "gas chamber" was constructed after the war for propaganda purposes. The chimney that we have heard so much about in these propaganda stories was never even attached to the building. C'mon  now!




ForeverYoung436 said:


> ...a genocide certainly occurred....


But you deny the Palestinian genocide based on the fact that they are extremely resilient people and have children? How many times have one of you come on here saying that the Palestinian population proves that there was no genocide?

Be honest for once and then consider:






And don't take my word for it as you can verify those numbers all by yourself.


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## Shusha (Mar 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


> And don't take my word for it as you can verify those numbers all by yourself.



Oh please.  The World Almanac hoax was revealed as such almost before it was published.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 26, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > And don't take my word for it as you can verify those numbers all by yourself.
> ...



Perhaps it was 5 million Jews that died in the Holocaust, and not 6 million.  That's usually the best estimate that I see.  It really doesn't make a difference when it comes to the cruelty and barbarity involved.  

Denying the Holocaust also does a disservice to the non-Jews who perished in the camps--between 5 and 7 million of them.  It even does a disservice to the 50 million soldiers and civilians who died worldwide, as a result of WW2.


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## louie888 (Mar 26, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


No it does not! Learning the truth about what happened to the Jews does not do a disservice to the 50 million soldiers and civilians who died worldwide, as a result of WW2. That is more of your stupid.

Now then, what about the chimney that was not even attached and the FACT that the Auschwitz "gas chamber" was built after the war for propaganda?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



It does do a disservice to the soldiers who fought to liberate the camps.  I don't know about the specific chimney you keep referring to.  I'll look into that.  But I'll take the word of my friend's dad who helped liberate the camps, and who saw the living skeletons with his own eyes.  And I'll take the word of Generals Eisenhower and Patton above yours.

You also never answered Humanity's question.  (He lost Gypsy members of his family in the Holocaust too.)  What exactly do you deny?  The numbers?  The gassing?  What exactly?


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## louie888 (Mar 26, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


I haven't, nor am I denying anything. You people deny the Palestinian genocide, the Nakba, etc. 

You obviously cannot read as I answered his question.

Please do "look into that." You will stop embarrassing yourself.


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## Hollie (Mar 26, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



The internet tabloids exist because people like you are so.... how shall we say..... easily amused?


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## teddyearp (Mar 26, 2017)

Humanity said:


> Just for clarity....
> 
> Do you deny that the Holocaust ever happened or do you just doubt the various figures that are banded about as if they were talking about a few $$?





louie888 said:


> You obviously cannot read as I answered his question.



You cannot read nor write since you did not answer this question since Humanity asked it.  Try again.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 26, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Perhaps it was 5 million Jews that died in the Holocaust, and not 6 million.


It doesn't really matter. If it was "only" 6 thousand and not 6 million, would that make it acceptable? Of course not.


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## Humanity (Mar 26, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps it was 5 million Jews that died in the Holocaust, and not 6 million.
> ...



If it was 6 it would be 6 too many!!!!


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## louie888 (Mar 26, 2017)

Humanity said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


And the fact they rounded up Jews for "Jewishness" is beyond belief. Through truth will this never happen again!


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## Hollie (Mar 27, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


This will never happen again?

It's happening now. Your co-fascists in the Islamist Middle East are persecuting Jews today just as they did 1400 years ago.

'Algeria, where are your Jews?' - Hillel Neuer at U.N. human rights council - UN Watch


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## louie888 (Mar 27, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


I said the exact opposite.

Nice try, moron.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 27, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Oh sorry, I thought you meant that you don't believe they were targeted for being Jewish.  I misunderstood the words "beyond belief", just like you misunderstood my intentions.  You aren't very clear many times.  Just like when Humanity and I asked you for clarity about what exactly you mean when you say there is "propaganda" concerning the Holocaust.  Do you mean the numbers involved?  Do you mean there was no gassing, but there was starvation?  Why can't you spell this out?  We want specifics.  So instead of name-calling (stupid or moron), just say directly what you mean.


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## louie888 (Mar 27, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> If humanityOh sorry, I thought you meant that you don't believe they were targeted for being Jewish.  I misunderstood the words "beyond belief", just like you misunderstood my intentions.  You aren't very clear many times.  Just like when Humanity and I asked you for clarity about what exactly you mean when you say there is "propaganda" concerning the Holocaust.  Do you mean the numbers involved?  Do you mean there was no gassing, but there was starvation?  Why can't you spell this out?  We want specifics.  So instead of name-calling (stupid or moron), just say directly what you mean.


If Humanity wants a question answered, Humanity will ask. You simply need to read the thread.

As stated:

People have gone to jail for simply questioning the 6 million number that has already been debunked by mainstream historians. I think they changed the Auschwitz plaques back in the 80s.







It's stupid, obvious shit like this that pisses people off. Bottom line here is obvious -  noone wants to choose between what to believe or a prison cell. Get real!

And that is just one mainstream revision out of a list that would take pages.

TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR - THE 6 MILLION NUMBER DIED DECADES AGO, YET YOU CAN GET THROWN IN JAIL IN SO CALLED FREE NATIONS  FOR POINTING THAT OUT.

Now please read the thread before asking stupid questions that have been clearly answered.


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## Humanity (Mar 27, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > If humanityOh sorry, I thought you meant that you don't believe they were targeted for being Jewish.  I misunderstood the words "beyond belief", just like you misunderstood my intentions.  You aren't very clear many times.  Just like when Humanity and I asked you for clarity about what exactly you mean when you say there is "propaganda" concerning the Holocaust.  Do you mean the numbers involved?  Do you mean there was no gassing, but there was starvation?  Why can't you spell this out?  We want specifics.  So instead of name-calling (stupid or moron), just say directly what you mean.
> ...



I already asked, still no response....


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## louie888 (Mar 27, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


I already answered, though.

Is the above not clear enough? Do you have other unanswered questions?


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2017)

People can do what they like, but I find this fascination with the Jewish holocaust morbid.  

The Armenians had a much larger (proportionally) holocaust, where almost half of their total population was killed, and one doesn't see Armenians making a huge fuss about it except to claim it happened and no country reprimands Turkey for denying it happened. The same for the Roma, they don't make a big fuss about a quarter of their number having been killed in Nazi death camps.


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## Humanity (Mar 27, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



I don't believe you answered this one...

Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference


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## louie888 (Mar 27, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


I answered it on page 2 and then again above. Are the official longtime revised figures not proof that the 6 million number is long dead?

Maybe you don't understand the importance of the 6 million figure to the holocaust industry. Is that the problem? Am I missing something? Are you aware of the ludicrous amount of times that Jews used the 6 million number and the idea of a "holocaust" prior to WWII?

It goes back at least to 1869...






I hope that helped.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 27, 2017)

montelatici said:


> People can do what they like, but I find this fascination with the Jewish holocaust morbid.
> 
> The Armenians had a much larger (proportionally) holocaust, where almost half of their total population was killed, and one doesn't see Armenians making a huge fuss about it except to claim it happened and no country reprimands Turkey for denying it happened. The same for the Roma, they don't make a big fuss about a quarter of their number having been killed in Nazi death camps.



My best friend made Aliyah and lives in Jerusalem.  There are 4 quarters in the Old City of Jerusalem--Jewish, Christian, Muslim and Armenian.  He found a job teaching at an Armenian school over there.  He told me that the Armenians make a very big deal about their holocaust.  It's taught about and there are memorials to it in their quarter.  Perhaps if you lived in Armenia or their quarter of Jerusalem, you'd hear more about it.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > People can do what they like, but I find this fascination with the Jewish holocaust morbid.
> ...



I live in a U.S. city and there are memorials and even a museum dedicated to the Jewish holocaust.  Nothing about the Armenian holocaust.  The Armenians are much less obsessed.


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## louie888 (Mar 27, 2017)

*ForeverYoung436*

You said you would look at this. I GUESS THAT WAS ANOTHER OF YOUR DAILY LIES.






See how the chimney, the one we here all the horror stories about the smoke billowing out day and night is not even connected to the building? This is BECAUSE it was constructed after the war.

I'm guessing your sister was so traumatized from the propaganda that she never even looked at what was right in front of her eyes.






And yet others have been imprisoned for pointing out the obvious.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 27, 2017)

louie888 said:


> *ForeverYoung436*
> 
> You said you would look at this. I GUESS THAT WAS ANOTHER OF YOUR DAILY LIES.
> 
> ...



Whatever I'm researching thru the Internet is none of your business, and I'm not going to come here and report to you what I'm doing in my private time.  So don't tell me that I'm lying and STFU!  I'm tired of you and don't want to engage you in discussion any further.


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## louie888 (Mar 27, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > *ForeverYoung436*
> ...


You lie every day. You said you would look into it. Regardless of your BS above, you will still stalk me too.


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## Lipush (Mar 27, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > *ForeverYoung436*
> ...



Save your nerves, this guy is a clown.


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## Humanity (Mar 27, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Ok, sorry....

I looked at your posts on page 2...

Can I just say... I didn't actually ask my question until page whatever...

So, for simplicity and lack of confusion....

Do you deny the Holocaust?

To keep it even simpler...

Yes or NO will suffice...


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## louie888 (Mar 28, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


1) Simplicity creates more confusion.

2) I affirm the lies we have been bombarded with for decades.

3) That might suffice for you, but it is not that simple. 

The Auschwitz "gas chamber" was constructed after the war and was previously an air-raid shelter. The chimney is not even attached and never was. 

As we have seen as well, the official death figure was reduced by 3 million back in the 80s.

Does pointing these things out make me "holocaust denier?"

Sorry, but that label seems stupid, especially in this case.


----------



## Humanity (Mar 28, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



So, basically, considering that we both 'appear' to support Palestine and Palestinians...

You cannot answer a simple 'Yes' or 'No' question from a 'fellow supporter'...

How do you think that you can, in an intelligent way, contribute to finding a peaceful solution with 'Pro-Israel' supporters?

So, can I ask you again...

In your opinion...

Did the Holocaust happen?

Yes or No?


----------



## Humanity (Mar 28, 2017)

louie888 said:


> The Auschwitz "gas chamber" was constructed after the war and was previously an air-raid shelter. The chimney is not even attached and never was.



And you have documentary proof of this?

Please share for us all....


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 28, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > The Auschwitz "gas chamber" was constructed after the war and was previously an air-raid shelter. The chimney is not even attached and never was.
> ...



After Screwy Louie challenged me, I did some research on the Internet.  It seems that the original chimney in Auschwitz was destroyed in an air-raid, so the Soviets built a reconstruction of it in 1947.  So what does that prove?  To me, it doesn't mean that the original chimney didn't exist.  For instance, in the Boston Harbor there sits a reconstructed ship, from where the American rebels spilled tons of tea.  Does the fact that the ship is a reconstruction, and not the actual ship, somehow mean the Boston Tea Party never happened?  Of course not!


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## louie888 (Mar 28, 2017)

Humanity said:


> ...You cannot answer a simple 'Yes' or 'No' question from a 'fellow supporter'...


It is not a simple question. I have looked at this stuff and you have not.



Humanity said:


> How do you think that you can, in an intelligent way, contribute to finding a peaceful solution with 'Pro-Israel' supporters?


I can't. Pro-Israel supporters are akin to nazis. They can't be reasoned with even when shown simple, obvious things. You have been here long enough to know this on your own.



Humanity said:


> So, can I ask you again...
> 
> In your opinion...
> 
> ...


Here is the definition from wiki:

*The Holocaust* (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος _holókaustos_: _hólos_, "whole" and _kaustós_, "burnt"),[3] also referred to as the *Shoah* (Hebrew: השואה, _HaShoah_, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which some six million European Jews were killed by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany, and the World War II collaborators with the Nazis.
The Holocaust - Wikipedia

That, as shown previously, multiple times now, is simply not true - EVEN BY MAINSTREAM STANDARDS.

But more to the point, we can talk about what did happen. Jews were rounded up for their Jewishness. They were thrown in work camps much like the Japanese in America. Many died in these camps. Some starved, some died from disease, some were shot and some were likely beaten to death. This is what we know and it is horrific.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of these deaths came after the allied firebombing of Europe which left the nazis unable to deliver all the food and medicine to these camps which they had been delivering since the start. If they really wanted to exterminate the Jewish people, why feed them? Why provide medicine for the sick?

I hope that helped.


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## louie888 (Mar 28, 2017)

Humanity said:


> And you have documentary proof of this?
> 
> Please share for us all....


YES!

Here is a documentary from a Jewish kid's (born, not practicing) visit there. His name is David Cole at this point. The same David Cole who the JDL (Jewish defense league, a known terrorist organization) put a hit out on and beat multiple times for making this incredible documentary. It is now about 25 years old so the quality is not great, but certainly workable. Note everything...


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## Hollie (Mar 28, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > And you have documentary proof of this?
> ...



"I know it's true because I saw it on YouTube"


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## louie888 (Mar 28, 2017)

Hollie said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Oh, sweety, are you really that shallow?

Do you think that?

Look, hon, this isn't a tough one. I'll be really, really, really clear for you.

1) YES, it is on youtube.

2) No, because something is on youtube does not make it true.

3) He asked specifically for "documentary" evidence and that is what was provided. Watch the video. Cole simply provides the footage of the actual tour and his interview with the head of the Auschwitz museum. While he asks questions, he certainly allows the evidence to speak for itself. He allows the viewers  to look at the RECORDED FACTS and decide what they mean. Again, hon, watch the documentary. Then, please, come back on here and tell us what you learned.


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## Hollie (Mar 28, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



.....because people like you always go to YouTube for their documentary evidence. 

So, repeat after me:

"I know it's true because I saw it on YouTube"


----------



## Humanity (Mar 29, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > ...You cannot answer a simple 'Yes' or 'No' question from a 'fellow supporter'...
> ...



I love the way you make the assumption that I have not looked at this! Because you obviously know me well! hahaha

So, you cannot answer a very simple direct question, preferring to post what YOU think happened... Which, as history has shown, is a pack of lies spread by Holocaust deniers...

It's ok, don't' hurt yourself trying to answer an honest question with an honest answer...

We now know, through your invalid posts that you DO deny the Holocaust... You flail around with your ridiculous assumptions about things being built or happening AFTER the war... Yet you cannot prove a single point you try and make!

Well, that makes you simple of mind and, in my opinion a Nazi by any other name....

I am not a Jew but I had family murdered by the Nazi's... You see, not everyone in the concentration camps were Jews!


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## Humanity (Mar 29, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > And you have documentary proof of this?
> ...



A YouTube video is not documentary evidence!


----------



## Eloy (Mar 29, 2017)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Israel is going to be the death of us all.


Israel was begun in the 1948 Nakba by an immigrant Jewish people who were committed to remembering the death of so many in the Final Solution and yet have visited unjust suffering on the vulnerable indigenous Palestinians.

The world looks on seemingly indifferent to the suffering of the Palestinian people but this is only because of entrenched ways of thinking by the Americans who refuse to share in the sorrows of a brutal occupation. We must challenge ourselves not to acquiesce as spectators but to have the courage to challenge convention and replace unprincipled politics with empathy for the people of Palestine.


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## Lipush (Mar 29, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



That guy is not a supporter of the Palestinians.  Claiming that The Mossad fires rockets on Israel and not Hamas is in no way supporting the Palestinians.  If I was a pro Palestinian I would have advised him to hold his fingers before typing because he makes the pro Palestinians look ridiculous.


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## Lipush (Mar 29, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > The Auschwitz "gas chamber" was constructed after the war and was previously an air-raid shelter. The chimney is not even attached and never was.
> ...



For the sake of honesty,  he is correct there.  The original gas chamber of the camp was reconstructed. 

Which is a known fact.  Every Israeli teen learns that when they hear the lecture while visitng Poland. 

I don't know why he waves that as a proof to Holocaust denying. 

My grandmother was a survivor of Auschwitz. So is her step brother,  who's one of the last survivors of Mengele twinst. 

I wonder if the ridiculous things he says regarding the Holocaust,  he would have the nerve to say directly to my face.


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## Lipush (Mar 29, 2017)

P.S - The fact that you compare me to a Nazi for standing for my flag and my people is pure compliment coming from a laughing stock such as yourself.


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## Humanity (Mar 29, 2017)

Lipush said:


> For the sake of honesty, he is correct there. The original gas chamber of the camp was reconstructed.



He used the word "constructed"! Suggesting that it was originally an air raid shelter and NOT a gas chamber.... It was THEN, after the war, turned into a gas chamber!

I agree it was "reconstructed"


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## Humanity (Mar 29, 2017)

Lipush said:


> P.S - The fact that you compare me to a Nazi for standing for my flag and my people is pure compliment coming from a laughing stock such as yourself.



Did I compare you to a Nazi??


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## Lipush (Mar 29, 2017)

Oh. That was a post meant to the board's laughing stock.  Not you.  Should have used direct quotations. Sorry.


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## Lipush (Mar 29, 2017)

Humanity said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > For the sake of honesty, he is correct there. The original gas chamber of the camp was reconstructed.
> ...



Sometimes I mix things up.  English is not my mother tongue


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## Humanity (Mar 29, 2017)

Lipush said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



It's ok, English is my mother tongue and I mix things up!


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## teddyearp (Mar 29, 2017)

What I find interesting is that not content with starting a new thread here:

Would Israel exist today without the holoccaust? And moreover...

on basically the same subject (just a different title to make it seem cool), the board's funny man had to revive this one from the dead on the very same day.


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## louie888 (Mar 29, 2017)

Humanity said:


> I love the way you make the assumption that I have not looked at this! Because you obviously know me well! hahaha


I made the assumption based on your posting here. I have read Hilberg, Arad, Pressac and some other stuff from their "sources." In total we are talking about over 10,000 pages which make up what mainstream historians consider when discussing "the holocaust."



Humanity said:


> So, you cannot answer a very simple direct question, preferring to post what YOU think happened... Which, as history has shown, is a pack of lies spread by Holocaust deniers...


Simply not true. I don't know if you read my post, understood my post, watched the Cole documentary I posted or what, but to be clear, I posted:

*Here is the definition from wiki:

The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[3] also referred to as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which some six million European Jews were killed by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany, and the World War II collaborators with the Nazis.
The Holocaust - Wikipedia

That, as shown previously, multiple times now, is simply not true - EVEN BY MAINSTREAM STANDARDS.*

How is that a pack of lies spread by Holocaust deniers? And moreover, what do you disagree with?



Humanity said:


> We now know, through your invalid posts that you DO deny the Holocaust... You flail around with your ridiculous assumptions about things being built or happening AFTER the war... Yet you cannot prove a single point you try and make!


I just read a thread where you go back and forth with poor Hollie and you are doing on this thread what she does on every thread. The irony is something. The evidence was posted and it comes directly from Dr. Piper, Auschwitz State Museum Senior Curator. Fanger is absolutely correct on this one. And the Aushwitz "gas chamber" is not the only reconstruction from after the war.



fanger said:


> Dr. Piper, Auschwitz State Museum Senior Curator, explains that the room displayed to tourists as an extermination “gas chamber” in its “original state” is actually a postwar reconstruction.





Humanity said:


> Well, that makes you simple of mind and, in my opinion a Nazi by any other name....


Except I speak out against the nazis frequently. I have even posted the evidence of the zionists working with the nazis. It sickens me.



Humanity said:


> I am not a Jew but I had family murdered by the Nazi's... You see, not everyone in the concentration camps were Jews!


I'm sorry and I get that. I know many died. I even posted:

*But more to the point, we can talk about what did happen. Jews were rounded up for their Jewishness. They were thrown in work camps much like the Japanese in America. Many died in these camps. Some starved, some died from disease, some were shot and some were likely beaten to death. This is what we know and it is horrific.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of these deaths came after the allied firebombing of Europe which left the nazis unable to deliver all the food and medicine to these camps which they had been delivering since the start. If they really wanted to exterminate the Jewish people, why feed them? Why provide medicine for the sick?*

I will add that Poles were rounded up for their Polishness, that gays were rounded up for their gayness, that gypsies were rounded up for being gypsies, others for their otherness, etc. All that is certainly horrific.

Now that your simple question was answered, how 'bout you taking a crack at my two simple questions that you skipped over.

* If they really wanted to exterminate the Jewish people, why feed them? Why provide medicine for the sick?*


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## Humanity (Mar 29, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > I love the way you make the assumption that I have not looked at this! Because you obviously know me well! hahaha
> ...



So, how about we do this...

You answer my question and I answer yours?

Do you deny the Holocaust - Yes or No? 

To help you out even further here, because you seem a little confused, it's ok, we all understand... When I say "Holocaust" I mean in terms of what every normal human being understands and interprets as "Holocaust"... Not some BS undefined waffle...

Does that help you?


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## Lipush (Mar 29, 2017)

Often those who deny the Holocaust are in favor for a future one to occure.

You don't fool anyone with the twisted message you try to convey regarding the Holocaust. The fact that you're in favor of ethnic cleasing and discrimination based on race is a fine proof of that.


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## montelatici (Mar 29, 2017)

Lipush said:


> Often those who deny the Holocaust are in favor for a future one to occure.
> 
> You don't fool anyone with the twisted message you try to convey regarding the Holocaust. The fact that you're in favor of ethnic cleasing and discrimination based on race is a fine proof of that.



Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't you stated that the ethnic cleansing of the Muslims and Christians from Palestine to make room for Zionist Jews was perfectly acceptable?


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## Lipush (Mar 29, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Often those who deny the Holocaust are in favor for a future one to occure.
> ...



I said no such thing.


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## montelatici (Mar 29, 2017)

Lipush said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Well, then excuse me.


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## louie888 (Mar 29, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Is the wiki definition I posted not "what every normal human being understands and interprets as "Holocaust"" in your eyes?

I answered twice. The answer should now be obvious.

As far as, *"Not some BS undefined waffle..." *

This is why I assume you have never looked at this crap, comments like that. Are you aware how many times the mainstream story has changed since the Nuremberg trials? I could list countless examples of once "established holocaust history" that no longer is believed by anyone in the mainstream world.

Here is one obvious one. When the propaganda of death camps first appeared, something like 22 death camps were "known." Today, the mainstream historians speak of only 6... and none in Germany. THAT IS A GIGANTIC REVISION BY ANYONE'S STANDARDS!

*I am still waiting to find out from anyone why the hell the nazis were feeding and providing medicine to the same Jews they were exterminating, let alone Hitler's Jewish soldiers.*


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



You have provided 'answers' though failed to be honest and answer the direct question with a direct answer... That's ok...

I am happy that there are still investigations taking place about the Holocaust and that there are revisions of what were, at the time, pretty sketchy accounts of what actually happened during the Holocaust... I am not 'scared; of these revisions, I think it's important for history to be correct. Remember it is only in recent times that the Holocaust has moved into 'history' rather than being in 'living memory' (mostly)...

To your questions.... And there are plenty of answers out there if you can be bothered to look it up!

In the very early days, Nazi Germany was a big supporter of Zionism, I am sure you know. Nazi Germany would, if a Jew emigrated to Israel would ship heavy machinery equivalent to the value of property left in Germany. Yes, Nazi Germany actively encouraged Jews to emigrate.

The Nazi's, being the 'superior race' felt they had a duty to behave with some morals. For years there was no 'real' plan for the Jews in Germany... Goebbels himself said that murdering the Jews was an 'unacceptably Asiatic' solution to the problem. "We're the master race, with that goes a certain moral superiority that means just shooting the lot of them isn't acceptable."

The Madagascar Plan was one of the first solutions to be proposed by Nazi Germany... Basically round up all the Jews, ship them to Madagascar... This wasn't the only plan to be put forward PRE 'Final Solution'... Deport all Jews to Palestine, was another, and Siberia was also suggested...

Many Jews fought with Nazi Germany... For many different reasons... If they could 'hide' whilst fighting for Germany then they would, many also believed that fighting for Nazi Germany would bring an end to the war and they would be deported from Germany at the end of it, maybe even to Palestine. Many Jews fought for Nazi Germany against a 'common enemy', the Russians, Finnish Jews, for example, did not fight for the 'Nazi cause', they fought to protect their country from the Russians!

I don't see it a big deal that Jews fought for Nazi Germany, certainly in the early days. There was no 'Final solution' then just several ideas about deporting Jews, perhaps even to Palestine! 

Two interesting references that you might want to read....

Lessons and Legacies I: The Meaning of the Holocaust in a Changing World (Lessons and Legacies (Paperback)) (v. 1): Peter Hayes: 9780810109568: Amazon.com: Books

Documents on the Holocaust: Selected Sources on the Destruction of the Jews of Germany and Austria, Poland, and the Soviet Union (Eighth Edition): Yisrael Gutman, Yitzhak Arad, Abraham Margaliot, Lea Ben Dor, Steven T. Katz: 9780803259379: Amazon.com: Books


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



These are all very interesting tidbits.  They should not take away, though, from the horrors that happened.  When Eisenhower and Patton liberated the camps, they took as many pictures as possible, because Eisenhower sensed that there would be Holocaust denial in the future.  He had local people brought in to view the spectacle, and some of these witnesses even committed suicide after seeing the horrors, which were so terrible.  There is also a difference between watching a movie like Schindlers' List and watching the actual footage of the liberated camps, with the piles of emaciated bodies stacked like corkwood.  That footage makes you want to vomit.  Jews took a big hit because there is hardly an Ashkenaz family that wasn't effected by it.  But it should be noted that Jews were a relatively late entry into the camps.  Many Soviet POW's were gassed, so is that also a lie?


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> These are all very interesting tidbits.  They should not take away, though, from the horrors that happened.  When Eisenhower and Patton liberated the camps, they took as many pictures as possible, because Eisenhower sensed that there would be Holocaust denial in the future.


Oh, please, nothing he said took away from the horrors and Eisenhower never mentioned holocaust denial which was not even a term then. The term holocaust denier came later when historians started tearing apart the official narrative. You are clueless as to how much of the story has changed since Nuremberg which led to several executions based on, by today's standards, known lies!



ForeverYoung436 said:


> He had local people brought in to view the spectacle, and some of these witnesses even committed suicide after seeing the horrors, which were so terrible.


Oh, please, these are the types of lies that piss people off. The horrors that are known are enough. Placing these lies on top only serves to weaken your point.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> There is also a difference between watching a movie like Schindlers' List and watching the actual footage of the liberated camps, with the piles of emaciated bodies stacked like corkwood.


Sigh... schindler's lies?

And the piles of bodies we see time and time again are typhus victims. The nazi's spent an enormous amount of time and money keeping these Jews alive throughout the war as typhus was spreading across Europe, After the allied firebombing (Holocaust?) the food and medicine the nazi's has supplied throughout the war could no longer be transported. Those piles of bodies are horrific, but they do not represent what you think.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> Many Soviet POW's were gassed, so is that also a lie?


I know this will piss you off, but please provide proof that even one Soviet POW was gassed to death.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > For the sake of honesty, he is correct there. The original gas chamber of the camp was reconstructed.
> ...


Perfect example of what we are dealing with. Post your proof that it was REconstructed! Seriously, what evidence can you provide that it was a gas chamber, that was turned into an air-raid shelter AND THEN turned back into a gas chamber? Does that even make sense?

Beyond that, do you know how zyklon B even works? It's OK, the storytellers didn't know either.






Now compare that with hermetically sealed actual gas chambers of the time...






Let me be as clear as possible...

I am against any laws prohibiting learning and then writing about any part of history, but far more dangerous than those who write about the holocaust from the actual evidence are those who lie about what happened. At the end of the day, if you want to claim that millions were marched off to gas chambers, then you need some serious and unmistakable proof. Sadly, that simply does not exist and never did.


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


\
It's quite funny really...

You ask for unmistakable proof to disprove your conspiracy theory? You believe that a 'door' is some kind of proof that nothing happened? Please, do me a favor! 

As already stated, at the beginning of WWII there was NO plan to exterminate Jews, just to round them up and deport them so, there would have been NO need to the hermetically sealed doors that you show in your photo... Further more, the small gas chambers appear to be for individuals, to be gassed in as humane a way as possible... You think that the Nazi's cared about being 'humane'? 

For me there is ENOUGH evidence out there to not question the Holocaust happened! The one stumbling block I have is on the numbers quoted, but even so, I still do not deny that Nazi Germany tried to commit genocide on the Jewish people!

I wish I could find proof that the millions who were murdered by the Nazi's had managed to escape to the dark side of the moon and lived happily ever after, I'm sure if I searched the internet long enough I would find a conspiracy theory matching that 'wish'... 

Your Holocaust denial based on images that mean nothing make your point of view 'nothing'!

Fortunately the Holocaust deniers, conspiracy theorists are few and far between and, fortunately, you will find little support for your views here.


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

It really is heartbreaking for me to read these posts. 

And the fact that you have the nerve to say something like "prove it!" , like the regular person is the one owning answers to the Holocaust denier,  is just so outrageous it could almost be funny.


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## montelatici (Mar 30, 2017)

Lipush said:


> It really is heartbreaking for me to read these posts.
> 
> And the fact that you have the nerve to say something like "prove it!" , like the regular person is the one owning answers to the Holocaust denier,  is just so outrageous it could almost be funny.



Look, you have people, many posting here, that deny that hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians were expelled from Palestine (or killed) by the Jews in 1947-48 when there is even more conclusive evidence (UN reports, British reports etc.)  that it happened.  It is not that unusual.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> ...It's quite funny really...
> 
> You ask for unmistakable proof to disprove your conspiracy theory?


Nope. And be serious, the idea that in secret, the Germans exterminated millions in gas chambers and left no proof of their crime IS THE CONSPIRACY THEORY OF THE LAST CENTURY.



Humanity said:


> You believe that a 'door' is some kind of proof that nothing happened? Please, do me a favor


Nope.



Humanity said:


> As already stated, at the beginning of WWII there was NO plan to exterminate Jews, just to round them up and deport them so, there would have been NO need to the hermetically sealed doors that you show in your photo... Further more, the small gas chambers appear to be for individuals, to be gassed in as humane a way as possible... You think that the Nazi's cared about being 'humane'


Nope. BUT THEY SURE AS FUCK DIDN'T WANT TO GAS THEMSELVES!

Again. it is obvious that you don't know how zyklon-b works and neither did the story tellers.



Humanity said:


> For me there is ENOUGH evidence out there to not question the Holocaust happened! The one stumbling block I have is on the numbers quoted, but even so, I still do not deny that Nazi Germany tried to commit genocide on the Jewish people!


And you are entitled to that opinion and you can share it without ever wondering if you will end up locked in a cage for doing so.



Humanity said:


> I wish I could find proof that the millions who were murdered by the Nazi's had managed to escape to the dark side of the moon and lived happily ever after, I'm sure if I searched the internet long enough I would find a conspiracy theory matching that 'wish'..


Nope.



Humanity said:


> Your Holocaust denial based on images that mean nothing make your point of view 'nothing'!


That is a gross over simplification and I bet you know that.



Humanity said:


> Fortunately the Holocaust deniers, conspiracy theorists are few and far between and, fortunately, you will find little support for your views here.


Except by those who have the courage to begin to understand this topic.

--------------------------



Lipush said:


> It really is heartbreaking for me to read these posts.
> 
> And the fact that you have the nerve to say something like "prove it!" , like the regular person is the one owning answers to the Holocaust denier,  is just so outrageous it could almost be funny.



Look,dummy, if you were put on trial for murdering one person, I am sure would demand evidence, let alone if you were accused of gassing millions to death.

Cry me a river.


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > It really is heartbreaking for me to read these posts.
> ...



Oh,  save it.  Back in 1948 that was a war.  Both us and the Palestinians clashed with one another.  Both lost land and families and honor.

Do not for a second think it is the same of having entire cities and communities completely destroyed with no trace under the Third Reich. My great grandfather was one of the most respected Rabbis of Budapest. He with the masses were all dust and ashes of destruction camps.  I have 9 great aunts I never got to know. A Godfather who I never heard speak because Mengele tore out his vocal cords,  a history that is not more than humiliating number - #10205.

So no.  I don't see it as the same.  Never will.


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > ...It's quite funny really...
> ...



My response to that pile of trash might get me banned. 

So I say all the unladylike things in my head.  You already know what I think of you.  I will keep pointing out how deceiving liar you are. 

Feel free to take any of my insults personally.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Lipush said:


> ...A Godfather who I never heard speak because Mengele tore out his vocal cords....


That Mengele sure was everywhere. Please stop the BS. These are the exact lies that people have grown so sick of.

Tore out his vocal cords... LMAO!


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## montelatici (Mar 30, 2017)

Lipush said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Typical Zionist answer.  What the Zionists did to the Muslims and Christians should be ignored, but what the Germans did to the Jews must be highlighted.


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > ...A Godfather who I never heard speak because Mengele tore out his vocal cords....
> ...



Google his name- Efraim Reichenberg.  Mengele twin. 

And after you do I expect you to apologize. 

You just made a joke about a Holocaust survivor who's a family member of mine.  That is despicable. 

Your message is being reported.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Report whatever you want. When you come on here and lie, you will be called out.

Just the way it goes.


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Comparing the Holocaust to the war is foolish.  Justice to the people of 1948 should be achieved,  I did not say to ignore anything.  But I stated my honest opinion regarding this.  I am not a fan of PC,  and I get that comparing the Palestinians to the Holocaust victims is the cool new thing,  but I don't think it is comparitable.  Sue me.


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Report whatever you want. When you come on here and lie, you will be called out.
> 
> Just the way it goes.



Why don't you 'prove it' that I lie? 

Still expecting you to apologize.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> You have provided 'answers' though failed to be honest and answer the direct question with a direct answer... That's ok...
> 
> I am happy that there are still investigations taking place about the Holocaust and that there are revisions of what were, at the time, pretty sketchy accounts of what actually happened during the Holocaust... I am not 'scared; of these revisions, I think it's important for history to be correct. Remember it is only in recent times that the Holocaust has moved into 'history' rather than being in 'living memory' (mostly)...
> 
> ...


Thanks for that post, even with the subtle barbs, I appreciate your effort.

1) I have been honest. The 6 million figure was revised in the 80s by some 2 1/2 million and Pressac (not a "denier") reduced that figure even further. You, yourself claim the numbers are bogus. Are you a holocaust denier?

2) "I am happy that there are still investigations taking place..."

Great! But in so called free nations people go to jail becuase of their investigations. That is the point of this thread. Deny the Nakba (a Jewish mass murder spree) all you want, deny the Armenian slaughter at the hands of the Jews or the millions of Russians slaughtered in the Bolshevik revolution at the Jews hands and NOTHING, but point out what I pointed out above and get locked in a hell hole.

3) "I think it's important for history to be correct. Remember it is only in recent times that the Holocaust has moved into 'history' rather than being in 'living memory'"

IT IS IMPORTANT FOR HISTORY TO BE CORRECT! And that line comes right from your Amazon link lol... and it means nothing to this topic.

4) "In the very early days, Nazi Germany was a big supporter of Zionism"

They were in bed together from start to finish. I showed this on another thread. This was their plan to establish their home on Palestinian land. Madagascar, Argentina and a few other place were mentioned in zionist writings long before the nazi ones. But the zionists in power decided only to Palestine. So much of the suffering the Jews suffered could have been avoided had that philosophy not taken hold.





Yitzhak Gruenbaum - Wikipedia

5) To my questions you only sidestepped. Finnish Jews fighting the Russians? Really, is that what you think this is about? We now know of upwards of 150,000 Jews who fought for Hitler including many high ranking officers who commanded large armies themselves. That hardly bodes with an extermination plan.

And you never responded to the main point of why Hitler spent so much time and money feeding and providing medicine for the very people he was exterminating. I'll wait on that and let you think on it... it's a tough one.

6) "Yes, Nazi Germany actively encouraged Jews to emigrate."... "I don't see it a big deal that Jews fought for Nazi Germany, certainly in the early days. There was no 'Final solution' then just several ideas about deporting Jews, perhaps even to Palestine!"

That's the thing. The final solution was one of deportation. I haven't read the first book you posted, but I am quite familiar with the second. I have been through many, many, documents and they all say the same thing. Look through your book again and show me where the final solution was anything more than deportation.

There was no extermination plan ever found that was written by the nazs. Plan Dalet or Plan "D" however, was a document written by the zionists which discussed their final solution for the Palestinians.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Lipush said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Report whatever you want. When you come on here and lie, you will be called out.
> ...


He was from Budapest, right? What camp was he in?


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Auschwitz.  Deported to Auschwitz in 1944.

Feel dumb yet,  or do you have anymore questions?


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Lipush said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


No, but you don't even know the story you are lying about. By that time, as the story goes, mass gassings were happening around the clock. This is how the story tellers pretend it was possible to exterminate that many people in that short of a time frame. It is as unbelievable as all the other Jewish lies. Like Mengele, himself had time to pull out this guys vocal cords. Please!

Lies...







Lies...






Lies...






Lies...






The world is sick of these lies.


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## Lipush (Mar 30, 2017)

Do you even know the story of Mengele and the children? 

So,  you cannot prove I tell lies,  obviously.  So you bring pictures and escape to your usual male no sense claims. 

I still wait for you to apologize.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > You have provided 'answers' though failed to be honest and answer the direct question with a direct answer... That's ok...
> ...



Wait a minute...so now the Jews are responsible for the Turkish holocaust of the Armenians?  My best friend teaches in an Armenian school in the Old City of Jerusalem.  Maybe I can arrange for you to speak there, and let's see how the ppl there will react to those lies.  Should I try to arrange it?


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Report whatever you want. When you come on here and lie, you will be called out.
> 
> Just the way it goes.



You noticed that then....


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > ...It's quite funny really...
> ...



I have just learned something... Thank you!

I have realised that you are the epitome of 'extremism'...

Here's why...

In your reply to my post I got no less than FOUR "Nope"... Simply because you cannot consider anything other than your own 'story', the 'story' of the extreme right, of the racist, of the Nazi!

You are unwilling to think, period!

You are unwilling to even consider someone else's ideas, period!

Extremists like to think that what they 'know' to be right is unquestionably right, without question...

Funny how MANY people on this board, from both 'sides', including myself I hope, have the capacity to listen to other points of view, they may notn ecessarily agree in the first instance but it CAN make people think outside of the box... They may even change their view point, or shift their view point, even slightly...

Unlike the 'extremist' ie YOU... You live in your unthinking box, with your hatred, with your lies... Totally incapable of free thinking, incapable of considering ANYTHING other than your own 'story'...

You are Holocaust denier who believes the conspiracy theories, believes the nazi propaganda, the far right propaganda....

Because you cannot listen to other peoples opinions you are incapable of joining in with proper conversation on this board... 

That simply makes you a Fascist, Racist, Nazi Troll...


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## montelatici (Mar 30, 2017)

Why do you think fascist maniacs that call for the extermination or the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, the Ruddys, Rhodes, MJB etc. never get lambasted by Israel Firsters, while Lou gets a constant bashing from at least one poster who seems to support the right of self-determination for the non-Jews of Palestine?


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Nope. LOL!

Nope simply refereed to you mischaracterizing what I posted or being wrong and you really should read that post back to yourself.

You seem like a decent guy. You come on here and fight for those with no voice, those with no means to fight for themselves. Never lose that. But this topic is obviously not for you.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Why do you think fascist maniacs that call for the extermination or the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, the Ruddys, Rhodes, MJB etc. never get lambasted by Israel Firsters, while Lou gets a constant bashing from at least one poster who seems to support the right of self-determination for the non-Jews of Palestine?


He has been brainwashed and traumatized by Jewish lies, by pure propaganda, by nonsense that gets repeated over and over. He is not capable of looking at this factually because of that. He still seems like a decent guy to me.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Wait a minute...so now the Jews are responsible for the Turkish holocaust of the Armenians?  My best friend teaches in an Armenian school in the Old City of Jerusalem.  Maybe I can arrange for you to speak there, and let's see how the ppl there will react to those lies.  Should I try to arrange it?


Have him read this first...

*In 1905, Jewish leaders calling themselves "Young Turks" met in Masonic lodges in Salonika, Italy, Paris and Vienna. They plotted a coup d'etat against the Sultan of Turkey Abdul Hamid II. Jews and crypto-Jewish Doenmeh of the Committee for Union and Progress took over complete control of the Turkish Empire in 1909. They had several goals. Their primary objective was to establish a segregated "Jewish State" in Palestine. They also sought to instigate World War I, to slaughter entire Christian populations, and to destroy the Turkish Empire and supplant Islamic religion and culture with a soulless and cultureless society engineered by Jewish positivists in Vienna, Paris, Italy and Salonika. This is their story.
*
The Jewish Genocide of Armenian Christians: Christopher Jon Bjerknes: 9781523357574: Amazon.com: Books


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Why do you think fascist maniacs that call for the extermination or the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, the Ruddys, Rhodes, MJB etc. never get lambasted by Israel Firsters, while Lou gets a constant bashing from at least one poster who seems to support the right of self-determination for the non-Jews of Palestine?



Why don't they?

Ask those who don't not me....

I will 'bash' anyone who is a Holocaust denier...

Do you deny the Holocaust? Yes or no will do...


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Why do you think fascist maniacs that call for the extermination or the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, the Ruddys, Rhodes, MJB etc. never get lambasted by Israel Firsters, while Lou gets a constant bashing from at least one poster who seems to support the right of self-determination for the non-Jews of Palestine?



And what does all that have to do with Holocaust denial?


----------



## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity

You deny the Jewish lies and cannot separate propaganda from reality on this topic.

For proof, you might ask? Look at all the stuff on this thread that you still have not been able to respond to, let alone refute.


----------



## montelatici (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think fascist maniacs that call for the extermination or the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, the Ruddys, Rhodes, MJB etc. never get lambasted by Israel Firsters, while Lou gets a constant bashing from at least one poster who seems to support the right of self-determination for the non-Jews of Palestine?
> ...





Humanity said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think fascist maniacs that call for the extermination or the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, the Ruddys, Rhodes, MJB etc. never get lambasted by Israel Firsters, while Lou gets a constant bashing from at least one poster who seems to support the right of self-determination for the non-Jews of Palestine?
> ...





Humanity said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think fascist maniacs that call for the extermination or the expulsion of non-Jews from Palestine, the Ruddys, Rhodes, MJB etc. never get lambasted by Israel Firsters, while Lou gets a constant bashing from at least one poster who seems to support the right of self-determination for the non-Jews of Palestine?
> ...



No. But, that's not the point.


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## rhodescholar (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Report whatever you want. When you come on here and lie, you will be called out.
> 
> Just the way it goes.



Worthless stormfront fucking trash scumbag, please die already.

You will soon be banned, along with other similar fucking garbage.

This whole thread has been reported, and should be moved to the conspiracy theory/badlands shithole.


----------



## rhodescholar (Mar 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Typical Zionist answer.  What the Zionists did to the Muslims and Christians should be ignored, but what the Germans did to the Jews must be highlighted.



You have it backwards as usual, stupid fucking retard, what the arabs did to the jews for 14 centuries is to be ignored - we can only discuss what is happening this minute in Israel.

BTW fucking idiot asshole, did you finish fucking men for money today, or are you still at, you weak, low IQ turd?


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



And the point is what? 

That you are pissed at me for disagreeing with a Holocaust denier?

or

That you are pissed with me because I don't blindly follow the 'hatred' of Jews like some?

or

Are you pissed at those who cannot/will not criticize their own 'side'?


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


If anything, I hope he's pissed at your refusal to look at what is right in front of your eyes. I still think your pretty cool, though. And just on this thread as far as I can see.

Keep up the good work.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I think Humanity is cool too.  I butted heads with him about the Liberty mistake, but other than that he's a fair guy.  He can see both sides of an issue.


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Oh I see very clearly what is in front of me... A fascist Nazi!

You are very quick to respond to comments made to others... Feeling left out?

If you bothered to read my posts you would see the reasons for my views... 

*And I am so NOT sorry they differ from yours!
*
Now, rather than trying to hijack every post, wait until you are addressed, then, and only then, may you answer!

That's the sort of language fascist Nazis understand isn't it!


----------



## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Hmmmm, strange... you keep making these bizarre comments and yet you still have not explained so many things that mainstream historians now agree on. And you so easily believe what you do with no proof at all.

It really is quite odd.


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Thank you ForeverYoung436

I will correct you, if I may, one one thing...

I *TRY *to see both sides... That's also part of the reason for being here... To try and learn, to try and understand...

*NOT *to come here having been brainwashed by conspiracy theory, hate Jews websites and propaganda and try and make out like I am right all the time!


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> I *TRY *to see both sides... That's also part of the reason for being here... To try and learn, to try and understand...


Uhhhh, read your posts and what was posted for you and see if what you posted above is accurate.



Humanity said:


> *Not *to come here having been brainwashed by conspiracy theory...


But that is EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE DONE! You have been brainwashed by the greatest conspiracy theory of our last century... and if you did what you claimed you do above, then you would see that clearly.


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



You really are getting quite boring for an extremist fascist Nazi however....

Let me give you one more try, let's just see....

Do "mainstream historians" deny the Holocaust?

Yes or No will do... 

(Go on, you know you can do it...)


----------



## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


No, of course not, but several revisions since Nuremberg have taken place as the Jewish lies have been exposed. They will continue to be exposed in countries where people are not locked up for doing so.


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## Humanity (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> No, of course not



So STFU you retard!

You makes statements that are SOOO easy to bring down, hence, you are now getting VERY boring...

So boring that you are going to have the privilege of being the first person I have ever put on ignore simple so I don't have to read your incredibly boring, fascist Nazi comments!

I would suggest that everyone else does the same, maybe you will go and annoy another board!


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

Humanity said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > No, of course not
> ...


Bring down?

Why was Hitler feeding, clothing and providing medicine to those he was exterminating?

Why did he bother having death camps when he could have just shot them?

He had them locked up in camps much like the Israelis have the Palestinians in Gaza. Why not just bomb them? The Israelis bomb Palestinians in their concentration camp. Especially as the allies were bombing Europe?

Without a hermetically sealed chamber, why weren't the nazis exterminating themselves?

And what of that multi-million mainstream revision that is now known for over 20 years? You still buying the cabalistic 6 million? I think you mentioned that you weren't. Are you closer to the Red Cross' figures?

These are just a few of the things you haven't "brought down."

FTR


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## rhodescholar (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Oh look, ... pretending to have some questions, as if they have any brains or facts.

[Edit Notes to ALL Posters: Please include content when addressing each other's posts. Let this serve as a reminder to others to do the same. Thank you!]


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> Oh look, the stormfront turd is pretending to have some questions, as if they have any brains or facts.
> 
> Fucking dogshit.


LOL, your stormfront turd is a Jew who speaks out frequently against the nazis, but these questions should be easily answered if you demand that the world buys the official narrative.

Here they are, you tell me...

Why was Hitler feeding, clothing and providing medicine to those he was exterminating?

Why did he bother having death camps when he could have just shot them?

He had them locked up in camps much like the Israelis have the Palestinians in Gaza. Why not just bomb them? The Israelis bomb Palestinians in their concentration camp. Especially as the allies were bombing Europe?

Without a hermetically sealed chamber, why weren't the nazis exterminating themselves?

And what of that multi-million mainstream revision that is now known for over 20 years? You still buying the cabalistic 6 million? I think you mentioned that you weren't. Are you closer to the Red Cross' figures?


----------



## Hollie (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > Oh look, the stormfront turd is pretending to have some questions, as if they have any brains or facts.
> ...



You will find people just like you in the conspiracy theory forums.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Forgive me for my lack of German language knowledge, but I think "eisengruppen" was the name of the Nazi firing squads.  Jews were made to dig ravines, undress, and expose themselves to be shot.  The results were too messy, not very accurate, and even caused the Germans to lose morale.  That's why the Nazis switched their methods of killing to concentration camps.


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## louie888 (Mar 30, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Forgive me for my lack of German language knowledge, but I think "eisengruppen" was the name of the Nazi firing squads.  Jews were made to dig ravines, undress, and expose themselves to be shot.  The results were too messy, not very accurate, and even caused the Germans to lose morale.  That's why the Nazis switched their methods of killing to concentration camps.


*Jews were made to dig ravines, undress, and expose themselves to be shot.*
While this is definitely true, the rest was just bullshit. Stop trying to make it worse than it was. It was already horrible, believe me, I have studied this topic.

It are the piles of these exact kind of Jewish lies that distracts us from coming to a consensus on what actually happened... and beyond that makes people think you are liar which adds to whatever antisemitism already scares you.


----------



## rhodescholar (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> While this is definitely true...



You're mentally ill fucking garbage.

Anyone responding to this low IQ piece of shit is no better, ...

_[Editor Note:_
_Dear louie888 and rhodescholar _
_Please stick to content and these exchanges aren't garbage, but necessary dialogue to work out the conflicts here._
_Posts are being kept, as much as possible, in order to encourage your efforts not to __derail your own posts by digressing too much._

_Please work within the rules and with each other to address_
_CONTENT, and your posts won't have to be deleted as long_
_as they contain something to work with here!_

_But if there is nothing but namecalling, those comments_
_will have to be deleted from this thread. Please include content_
_especially if the posts address the poster though it's better not to. Clearly that starts to detract and derail so it's better to address the content instead of targeting each other. Thank you! Please keep trying, so your posts don't get deleted for trolling/no content. Thanks for your efforts!]_


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## rhodescholar (Mar 30, 2017)

louie888 said:


> LOL, your stormfront turd...



[Post removed that refers to banning and moderation.
Please report complaints using flag button, or PM to a Moderator
to keep concerns private. Or this derails threads.]

Dear rhodescholar and louie888 
Will contact you by PM to try to resolve this off line instead of the middle of this thread. Sorry for the frustration and disruption; this is an extremely volatile issue, so it is understandable and all your efforts are greatly appreciated and needed, even if coming across otherwise. 

Just not on the threads for TOPIC discussion only.
Can posts PLEASE focus on CONTENT (while addressing other issues by PM).

Thank you very much! Appreciate you being here!


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > LOL, your stormfront turd...
> ...



_[removed references to banning and moderation reserved for PM]_

That said as well, how bout:

Why was Hitler feeding, clothing and providing medicine to those he was exterminating?

Why did he bother having death camps when he could have just shot them?

He had them locked up in camps much like the Israelis have the Palestinians in Gaza. Why not just bomb them? The Israelis bomb Palestinians in their concentration camp. Especially as the allies were bombing Europe?

Without a hermetically sealed chamber, why weren't the nazis exterminating themselves?

And what of that multi-million mainstream revision that is now known for over 20 years? You still buying the cabalistic 6 million? I think you mentioned that you weren't. Are you closer to the Red Cross' figures?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Forgive me for my lack of German language knowledge, but I think "eisengruppen" was the name of the Nazi firing squads.  Jews were made to dig ravines, undress, and expose themselves to be shot.  The results were too messy, not very accurate, and even caused the Germans to lose morale.  That's why the Nazis switched their methods of killing to concentration camps.
> ...



I wish I knew what you mean by "bullshit?"  If this is true, then what do you object to?  The description of it?  But it's true, no exaggeration.  The results?  That's also true.  I have read about this topic too, and I was answering your question about why shooting was stopped after awhile.  Because it is a fact that shooting was stopped, and did not last to the end of WW2.  And what this has to do with anti-Semitism if it's true, I don't know.


----------



## Humanity (Mar 31, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



The main role of 'Einsatzgruppen' was to kill civilians.... Door to door murders as well as mass murder...

It was highly demoralising for those taking part and was, quite clearly, systematic genocide of jews, amongst other specified targets including the clergy, gypsies and disabled...

It was also highly 'visible' murder... This is why, although murders continued throughout the war, the main focus was moved to concentration camps.... Less demoralising and far more secret!

Oh, I am sure there will be deniers of this too, but, like the Holocaust, there is sufficient documentary evidence to show that this actually too place!


----------



## teddyearp (Mar 31, 2017)

Humanity said:


> You makes statements that are SOOO easy to bring down,<snip>



I call them light as a feather . . . . puff, there goes another one screwy, miles away.


----------



## teddyearp (Mar 31, 2017)

Hmm, here's the answer to screwy's OP question.  There is no comparison.  Nobody here no matter what 'side' they are on denies that several hundred thousand Arabs left Israel at it's creation/1948 war. We aren't even quibbling about the amount.

Discussion over.

Move on folks, nothing left to see here.


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

Deleted by me for bad formatting, reposted below...


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



You just said that the statement "Jews were made to dig ravines, undress, and expose themselves to be shot" was true.  So what about my statements are lies or bullshit?  Let's be exact.
Even Humanity said this process was ineffective and demoralizing, even to the most patriotic Germans.  You are the one who says that they weren't complete monsters!  So how can it not be demoralizing to kill civilians like that?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 31, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Humanity said pretty much the same thing as I did.  Yet you only respond to me.  Why is that?


----------



## Humanity (Mar 31, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



I'm going to guess you are talking about screwy louie... 

Easiest thing to do is put him on "Ignore"... That way you don't have to watch his fascist nazi crap!

If we all ignore the child he will soon go away!


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> I wish I knew what you mean by "bullshit?"


Stop playing dumb. It are the piles of these exact kind of Jewish lies that distracts us from coming to a consensus on what actually happened... and beyond that makes people think you are liar which adds to whatever antisemitism already scares you. Stop trying to make it worse than it was. It was already horrible,



ForeverYoung436 said:


> If this is true, then what do you object to?  The description of it?  But it's true, no exaggeration.


Bullshit.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> The results?  That's also true.  I have read about this topic too, and I was answering your question about why shooting was stopped after awhile.


Crap, the soldiers were not horrified and that is not why they invented gas chambers. Just stop, these soldiers were patriotic Germans who believed that they were saving their nation.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> And what this has to do with anti-Semitism if it's true, I don't know.


People hate liars.

So, for the sake of historical accuracy, let us focus on what we know.

1) The numbers regarding the Einsatzgruppen were greatly exaggerated. Historians today now know this. Hilberg admits this in his "The Destruction of the European Jews," which is basically the mainstream bible on this crap and was written decades ago.

2) Historians today now recognize the faked photos for what they are.

3) This had NOTHING TO DO WITH exterminating the Jews or anyone else. Jews were shot mainly for security, for spying, for reprisals, killing cops, etc.

The ones shot were fighting back, much like the Palestinians who resist with stone throwing, brandishing scissors, wearing a backpack, etc. The Einsatzgruppen had a policy where they would shoot hostages or people in the village after a sniper killed one of them or a cop or whatever. This policy, while sickening, is really no different than policies of other regimes who were facing guerrilla attacks INCLUDING THE USA who used this same policy in Vietnam... and we see this in Israel of course, from the brave and morally upright IDF.

For added irony, *Humanity* posted a link to the book, "Documents on the Holocaust" which he either never actually read or simply forgot what he did read. I am VERY familiar with that book and I must point out that one of the documents in that book (again now, the one that Humanity posted) was from Heydrich where he laid out clearly for the SS heads in the then occupied Soviet territories that the people to be shot were to be shot only for security reasons like snipers and that the only Jews to be shot were the ones who were officials in the Communist party and/or the Russian government. This very same document is accepted as authentic by mainstream historians today including Yad Vashem.


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

Now then, *ForeverYoung436 *

Can you answer these questions honestly?

*Why was Hitler feeding, clothing and providing medicine to those he was exterminating?

Why did he bother having death camps when he could have just shot them?

He had them locked up in camps much like the Israelis have the Palestinians in Gaza. Why not just bomb them? The Israelis bomb Palestinians in their concentration camp. Especially as the allies were bombing Europe?

--> Without a hermetically sealed chamber, why weren't the nazis exterminating themselves? <-- This is a biggie 

And what of that multi-million mainstream revision that is now known for over 20 years? You still buying the cabalistic 6 million? I think you mentioned that you weren't. Are you closer to the Red Cross' figures?
*


----------



## Coyote (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > Oh look, the stormfront turd is pretending to have some questions, as if they have any brains or facts.
> ...



Really....?

You call this providing "medicine"?

Nazi human experimentation - Wikipedia


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Now then, *ForeverYoung436 *
> 
> Can you answer these questions honestly?
> 
> ...



I already answered the "shooting" question countless times.


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

Coyote said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > rhodescholar said:
> ...


Sigh....

We are well aware of the nazis' experimentation stories. But that has nothing to do with the medical care which they provided for their prisoners. And let's be real, many of those stories are now known to be false... just more Jewish lies. A few examples before we move on include the stories that hey were making soap out of Jews, and lampshades, and were even shrinking Jewish heads. Today, you would be extremely hard-pressed to find even one respected historian who believes those stories to be true.

That said, let's talk about Stefan Budziaszek. He was rounded up in Poland with other intellectuals after receiving his doctorate. At Auschwitz, as a prisoner, he was put in charge of the hospital and basically transformed a small infirmary into an actual hospital with an outpatient facility as well. Records detail more than 40 doctors on staff there. Records further show that he was able to get medicines and equipment to perform more major surgeries.

One recipient of a foot surgery there was none other than Elie Wiesel as he mentioned in his memoirs.

Any idea why Wiesel and the 1000s of others who received treatment there were not exterminated, but nursed back to health? And got anything else on the other questions that you and the others keep skipping right past?


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Now then, *ForeverYoung436 *
> ...


Which I exposed as the bullshit that it was. Got anything else on the other questions that you and the others keep skipping right past?


----------



## Coyote (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...




Actually, most of the medical experiment stories were not false, but very well documented by the German's conducting them.

Tell me about the medical care these people received (and keep in mind they were all innocent civilians kept against their will imprisoned):
Sachsenhausen: Conditions in the Camp


----------



## jillian (Mar 31, 2017)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Israel is going to be the death of us all.



nah...anti-Semite trash will still live...


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

Coyote said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Uhhh, we are talking about the hospital at Auschwitz and noone ever claimed the conditions in labor camps anywhere, ever, were anything to be proud of.

Again now, any idea why Wiesel and the 1000s of others who received treatment there *were not exterminated, but nursed back to health?* And got anything else on the other questions that you and the others keep skipping right


----------



## Coyote (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...




Given the fact that almost 2/3 of Europe's Jewish population was exterminated it's "heartening" to know that the Nazi's nursed a few thousand back to health.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



My niece had the same questions about food (meager though it was), and some medical treatment, and why they were given at all.  You are assuming the Nazis were logical, rational people.  I don't know how an evil mind works.  Secondly, there were death camps and there were work camps.  Auschwitz was both.  Jewish slaves were kept alive to help in the war effort.  That is how Schindler was able to save so many Jews.


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## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Given the fact that almost 2/3 of Europe's Jewish population was exterminated it's "heartening" to know that the Nazi's nursed a few thousand back to health.


Hogwash. We have been over the numbers. I hate posting things again for these people who refuse to even read the thread they are responding on. I will if I must, but it seems unnecessary to do for someone with over 50,000 posts here.




ForeverYoung436 said:


> My niece had the same questions about food (meager though it was), and some medical treatment, and why they were given at all.  You are assuming the Nazis were logical, rational people.  I don't know how an evil mind works.  Secondly, there were death camps and there were work camps.  Auschwitz was both.  Jewish slaves were kept alive to help in the war effort.  That is how Schindler was able to save so many Jews.


Every time I expose your ignorance on this topic or your outright lies, you simply pop back with something else. That makes you worthless to continue with, let alone *you know exactly how an evil mind works as you come on here day after day supporting the pure evil that is zionism. *Another post from you, another lie... go figure.

And fuck Schindler's lies. That's your problem right there. You get all your info from TV and Hollywood.

BOTTOM LINE: YOU DON'T FEED, CLOTHES AND CARE FOR THOSE WHO YOU ARE EXTERMINATING!

And since you two are completely out-of-the-loop, besides a hospital at Auschwitz, check out these other amenities...


----------



## Coyote (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Given the fact that almost 2/3 of Europe's Jewish population was exterminated it's "heartening" to know that the Nazi's nursed a few thousand back to health.
> ...


----------



## Coyote (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Given the fact that almost 2/3 of Europe's Jewish population was exterminated it's "heartening" to know that the Nazi's nursed a few thousand back to health.
> ...




*Shame on those who support this tripe*.  Ever heard the accounts from the people who liberated it?  First hand, what they encountered.  My grandfather was there.

Reality of Auschwitz..


----------



## Coyote (Mar 31, 2017)

> BOTTOM LINE: YOU DON'T FEED, CLOTHES AND CARE FOR THOSE WHO YOU ARE EXTERMINATING!



Yet....

you still manage to exterminate them.


----------



## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

Coyote said:


>



I could have sworn you guys freaked out about posting images with no accompanying text. Odd.

Additionally...

If you don't already know it --- EVERY POST in a Zone2 forum like this one must contain some relevance to the Title and Opening Post of the thread. And not just a token swipe at it. The rule is a brilliant way to recognize that we can't stop all the flaming and sniping. And all we are interested in -- is that you address the TOPIC everytime before you hit reply. If you can't --- pick another topic. It's simple and it will improve the level of discussion immensely in any high tension forum.
Heads up - new rules in effect for IP as of 12/1/2015

A mod had directed me there, hope that helped.



Coyote said:


> *Shame on those who support this tripe*.  Ever heard the accounts from the people who liberated it?  First hand, what they encountered.  My grandfather was there.


Yes, absolutely, it was eventually clear that those who liberated actually created "gas chambers" for propaganda purposes after the war.



Coyote said:


> Reality of Auschwitz..


Those pictures are horrific AND i THOUGHT WE WERE PROHIBITED FROM POSTING SUCH OBSCENE THINGS? Odd again.

That said, they certainly represent zero evidence of a mass gassing program. They show typhus victims, many who starved to death after the allies bombed Europe and the nazis could no longer supply the camps with the food and medicine, let alone the zyklon-b they were delousing with throughout the entire war to that point. For the sake of truth, it is important to be clear here.



Coyote said:


> > BOTTOM LINE: YOU DON'T FEED, CLOTHES AND CARE FOR THOSE WHO YOU ARE EXTERMINATING!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) But was there a program to "exterminate the Jewish people?"

2) Were millions marched off to gas chambers?

3) Should there be simple and obvious proof for such a charge?

And most importantly for this thread...

Is it worse, or does it incite more hatred by questioning historical events that remain unclear, or blindly accepting an official story of killing millions of people by gassing without ever having to provide evidence? I mean if there are laws against questioning the Jewish version of history, should there not also be laws about lying about historical events for political purposes or any other reason?


----------



## Coyote (Mar 31, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



Hogwash.

Let's simplify it.

Why were innocent civilians incarcerated in the first place?


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## rhodescholar (Mar 31, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Yet....you still manage to exterminate them.



A good forum would have banned that piece of shit already.  I guess the fact that you are giving this scumbag a platform for such garbage by allowing it to continue to spout these lunatic posts and how it is degrading the forum never occurred to you.


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## teddyearp (Mar 31, 2017)

Interesting. . . .


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## louie888 (Mar 31, 2017)

Coyote said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Because people in power are sick fucks. We have seen this time and time again throughout history and today is no different. We have this postage stamp size piece of shit "country" which brings havoc all over the wold and hold the power to openly incarcerate the Palestinians in a concentration camp which they bomb! And every damn supporter of that nazi crap on this board screams nazi for siding with the Jews of today.

Sorry, but you asked. Hitler was fucked. The nazi party was fucked. At the same time the men who financed that crap raised the children who finance that shit today. It seems nobody cares for facts. They care for labels. They care for soundbites. They buy into the lowest forms off propaganda, the kind designed for the least critical thinkers and scream "idiot" at anyone who shows this to them.

We have been dumbed down beyond belief and the clock is ticking. Nazi Germany was a damn test run for Palestine today and if we don't wakr up to that obvious fact, then we are doomed to all become the Palestinians of future.

Understanding the Jewish lies surrounding this one part of history, especially the zionist/nazi connection which we have seen on another thread here...

Would Israel exist today without the holoccaust? And moreover...

is paramount in understanding our situation today.

Now, please, before asking more questions, can you answer the questions which I have posed. I have been completely honest and answered everything asked of me. Let's play fair.

PS:

I was not given the option to "simplify it." Do mods here post by a different set of rules? And are these rules public information?


----------



## rhodescholar (Mar 31, 2017)

I will not engage the human feces poster that should have been banned a long time ago, but for those with even a slight fraction of intelligence who actually have an interest in studying the Holocaust, here's a few places to start:

Irving loses Holocaust libel case

Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant at Auschwitz: Rudolf Höss, Steven Paskuly, Andrew Pollinger, Primo Levi: 9780306806988: Amazon.com: Books

Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers (Published in association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum): Filip Muller: 8601404246821: Amazon.com: Books

https://www.amazon.com/Story-Secret...91022248&sr=1-1&keywords=karski&tag=ff0d01-20


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Deleted by me<snip>



If only, LOL!!!!!!


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> If you don't already know it --- EVERY POST in a Zone2 forum like this one must contain some relevance to the Title and Opening Post of the thread. And not just a token swipe at it. The rule is a brilliant way to recognize that we can't stop all the flaming and sniping. And all we are interested in -- is that you address the TOPIC everytime before you hit reply. If you can't --- pick another topic. It's simple and it will improve the level of discussion immensely in any high tension forum.
> Heads up - new rules in effect for IP as of 12/1/2015
> 
> A mod had directed me there, hope that helped.


But I thought it should be reserved for mods to post the rules in red. I dunno, just sayin'


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

I need to correct an earlier post of mine in this thread. I inaccurately inadvertently seemingly addressed the reply, that I will be repeating again, to the latest board clown, screwy; I now see that I should have quoted the actual OP of this thread, the user whom hasn't logged in here for 5-1/2 years or so.



bluemoon22 said:


> Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?
> 
> I found this poll and blog to be an excellent question with some great videos. People go to jail in Germany if they deny the Holocaust, but and in typical Racist fashion the Zionists would like to punish Palestinians for remembering and telling the world it happened.



Don't actually see an explanation of the 'Nakba' connection, but:

There is no comparison. Nobody here no matter what 'side' they are on denies that several hundred thousand Arabs left Israel at it's creation and/or 1948 war. We aren't even quibbling about the amount.

Discussion over.

Move on folks, nothing left to see here.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> ...because Eisenhower sensed that there would be Holocaust denial in the future....


More Jewish lies, but that is not a crime anywhere, strange.

And again, Eisenhower never mentioned holocaust denial which was not even a term then. The term holocaust denier came later when historians started tearing apart the official narrative.

Beyond that, In Eisenhower's "Crusade in Europe" which is nearly 600 pages, not once does he mention gas chambers, genocide of the Jews or the cabalisitic 6 million number. Furthermore, in Churchill's "Second World War" which totals 6 volumes and nearly 5000 pages, again we find not a mention of gas chambers, genocide of the Jews or the cabalisitic 6 million number. And the sane holds true for the over 2000 pages of de Gaulle's "Memoires de guerre" which was published in three volumes.

Strange, no?


----------



## rhodescholar (Apr 1, 2017)

Photos of Gas Chamber in Auschwitz main camp - Krema I


----------



## Coyote (Apr 1, 2017)

*This is an OLD thread (2011) - it might be time to bring it back to the OP's topic.  The thread seems to have headed into a discussion of whether or not the Holocaust occurred.  The OP wasn't really discussing that but rather the disparate treatment under the law of Holocaust Denial vs. Al Nakba Denial.  Here is the OP:*



> Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?
> 
> I found this poll and blog to be an excellent question with some great videos. People go to jail in Germany if they deny the Holocaust, but and in typical Racist fashion the Zionists would like to punish Palestinians for remembering and telling the world it happened.



The link itself no longer works - but here are some other articles that might be relevant to the discussion:

Between anger and denial: Israeli collective memory and the Nakba | +972 Magazine
_A strange thing regarding the debate on the Nakba: the responses it generates in Israeli society are becoming more and more hostile, while at the same time, the Nakba is mentioned more and more often. Those contradicting elements live side by side, as if the more we work to forget the Nakba, the harder it gets – the recent campaign regarding “the Jewish refugees” that the Foreign Office launched is  just one example._​
WANTED – A psychiatric diagnosis of Nazi holocaust denial - Alan Hart
_While I was reading some of the responses on various web sites to my last post (Understanding the real significance TODAY of the Nazi holocaust), the following question occurred to me. *Does it really matter HOW Jews were exterminated in Nazi concentration camps? *Even if you chose to believe that gas chambers were not part and parcel of the Nazi extermination programme, there is irrefutable evidence that Jews were shot, hanged, burned, injected and starved to death and, also, that many died from diseases that were only terminal because of the conditions of their incarceration.

That’s why I stand by my view that holocaust denial (and most aspects of holocaust revisionism) is evil on a par with the commissioning of the slaughter and the slaughtering itself. But repeating myself on that score is not the purpose of this short article.

*It is to request that an eminent psychiatrist or two (or several) come forward to explain what goes on in the minds of holocaust deniers*.

I can understand without assistance why many Jews deny the Nakba, Zionism’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine. They believe, wrongly in my view, that coming to terms with this truth of history is not in their own best interests. (In my view this Jewish refusal to acknowledge the terrible wrong done to the Palestinians by Zionism in the name of all Jews is the prime obstacle to peace based, as it must be, on justice for the Palestinians and security for all).

 But why would anybody want to deny the Nazi holocaust when there really is so much irrefutable evidence that many Jews were exterminated? Some people apparently have a *need* to deny it. *What is that need? What drives it? What do holocaust deniers think there is to be gained from and by denial?*_​The OP mentioned Holocaust denial laws, implying that there was nothing similar for Al Nakba.  I think part of that lies in the sheer differences in scale and effect of the Nazi's vs what occurred to the Palestinians.

Several articles point out the need for open discussion and reconciliation about Al Nakba, not a bad idea.  As far as laws forbidding Holocaust denial - I've always been guarded about that.  I think these things need to be kept in the open where they can be refuted.  Once they are made illegal, they are driven underground where they can be fed, free of refutation and worse - their propogators feel "legitimized" by "persecution" in the legal system.  A bad mix of ideology and darkness.


----------



## rhodescholar (Apr 1, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Several articles point out the need for open discussion and reconciliation about Al Nakba,



The nakba fraud is utter nonsense; the arabs started a war they lost, and the rest of the world is supposed to feel sorry for them?  A war where they wanted to massacre all of the jews and send them into the ocean?  So now they cry and whine about it with their manufactured grievance so the ignorant morons of the world are supposed to pity them, and support their fake cause?  Are you fucking for real?



> The OP mentioned Holocaust denial laws, implying that there was nothing similar for Al Nakba. I think part of that lies in the sheer differences in scale and effect of the Nazi's vs what occurred to the Palestinians.



Uh, what "occured" to the arabs?  They started a war, many of them left the area so the arab armies could wipe out the jews - and ended up stuck in whatever arab country they went to.  What exactly is the issue here?

As a side note, I've noticed that whenever a thread starts dying in this section you come around to try and re-ignite it, often posting some controversial nonsense.  This is solidifying my belief that you and the other mods are not banning the racist trash/trolls because you want the posting activity, no matter who/where it comes from, to satisfy the advertisers.


----------



## fanger (Apr 1, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> Photos of Gas Chamber in Auschwitz main camp - Krema I


The Krema I gas chamber in the main Auschwitz camp, shown in the photo above, is a *reconstruction *which was done by the Soviet Union in 1947.
Hollywood has made many a "*reconstruction"  that don't make it true*


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

Coyote said:


> *This is an OLD thread (2011) - it might be time to bring it back to the OP's topic.  The thread seems to have headed into a discussion of whether or not the Holocaust occurred.  The OP wasn't really discussing that but rather the disparate treatment under the law of Holocaust Denial vs. Al Nakba Denial.  Here is the OP:*
> 
> Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?


That's one way to solve the problem.



Coyote said:


> I found this poll and blog to be an excellent question with some great videos. People go to jail in Germany if they deny the Holocaust, but and in typical Racist fashion the Zionists would like to punish Palestinians for remembering and telling the world it happened....
> 
> WANTED – A psychiatric diagnosis of Nazi holocaust denial - Alan Hart
> ​


Wow! Really? That must be it? It has absolutely nothing to do with the Jewish lies, their persistence that this one part of history can not be examined, or the fact that these people have rotted in a jail cell for either explaining the holes in the official narrative or defending in court those that do?

*September 1987, June 1999, April 2016    Jean-Marie Le Pen    France, Germany    fines of €183,000 (1987), €6,000 (1999) €30,000 (2016)
Feb. 27, 1998    Roger Garaudy    France    6 months' imprisonment (suspended), ₣240,000 (€37,500) fine
Jul. 21, 1998    Jürgen Graf    Switzerland    15 months' imprisonment (fled Switzerland to avoid sentence)
April 8, 1999    Fredrick Töben    Australia    7 months' imprisonment Mannheim, Germany – retrial – 2011 indefinitely stayed by judge Dr Meinerzhagen. October 1 – November 19, 2008, London, extradition to Mannheim, Germany, on European Arrest Warrant issued by Germany, failed. August 15 – November 12, 2009, Adelaide, Australia – for contempt of court because he refused to stop questioning the Holocaust's 3 basics: 6 million, systematic state extermination, gas chambers as murder weapon.
May 27, 1999    Jean Plantin    France    6 months' imprisonment (suspended), fine, damages
Apr. 11, 2000    Gaston-Armand Amaudruz    Switzerland    1 year's imprisonment, damages
Feb. 20, 2006    David Irving    Austria    3 years' imprisonment. Released and deported after serving 13 months.
Mar. 15, 2006    Germar Rudolf    Germany    2½ years' imprisonment
Oct. 3, 2006    Robert Faurisson    France    €7,500 fine, 3 months' probation
Feb. 15, 2007    Ernst Zündel    Germany    5 years' imprisonment
Nov. 8, 2007    Vincent Reynouard    France    1 year's imprisonment and a fine of 10,000 euros
Jan. 14, 2008    Wolfgang Fröhlich    Austria    6 years' imprisonment
Jan. 15, 2008    Sylvia Stolz    Germany    3½ years' imprisonment
Mar. 11, 2009    Horst Mahler    Germany    5 years' imprisonment
Oct. 23, 2009    Dirk Zimmerman    Germany    9 months' imprisonment
Oct. 27, 2009    Richard Williamson    Germany    €12,000 fine (later overturned)
Jan. 31, 2013    Gyorgy Nagy    Hungary    18-month suspended jail sentence
Feb. 11, 2015    Vincent Reynouard    France    2 years' imprisonment
Nov. 12, 2015    Ursula Haverbeck    Germany    10 months' imprisonment*

I know you haven't yet responded to other questions, but you really should take a stab at that one.



Coyote said:


> _I can understand without assistance why many Jews deny the Nakba, Zionism’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine. They believe, wrongly in my view, that coming to terms with this truth of history is not in their own best interests. (In my view this Jewish refusal to acknowledge the terrible wrong done to the Palestinians by Zionism in the name of all Jews is the prime obstacle to peace based, as it must be, on justice for the Palestinians and security for all).
> 
> But why would anybody want to deny the Nazi holocaust when there really is so much irrefutable evidence that many Jews were exterminated? Some people apparently have a *need* to deny it. *What is that need? What drives it? What do holocaust deniers think there is to be gained from and by denial?*_


_*Please! Stop! That is a BS straw man argument and you should see that.*_​NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND DENIES THAT THERE IS "_much irrefutable evidence that many Jews were exterminated."_

And then you wonder why people want answers?



Coyote said:


> The OP mentioned Holocaust denial laws, implying that there was nothing similar for Al Nakba.  I think part of that lies in the sheer differences in scale and effect of the Nazi's vs what occurred to the Palestinians.


How does exterminating one group mean less than another? This should be good. And what of the Jewish genocide of the Christian Armenians? And their role in over 60 million deaths in the Bolshevik revolution? Hmmmmm?



Coyote said:


> Several articles point out the need for open discussion and reconciliation about Al Nakba, not a bad idea.  As far as laws forbidding Holocaust denial - I've always been guarded about that.  I think these things need to be kept in the open where they can be refuted.


Thank-you for the sanity, I was getting nervous lol.


----------



## fanger (Apr 1, 2017)

Well you can deny god exists but question the Holocaust and the jews will send you to jail as an example to the rest


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

fanger said:


> Well you can deny god exists but question the Holocaust and the jews will send you to jail as an example to the rest


And that part of the subject of this thread has been beaten to death.

*However, how about the other part that IS the subject of this thread?  Who is denying that several hundred thousand Arabs left the newly formed state of Israel? Who?  Where?*

Screwy louie only brought this thread to life to circumvent board rules of starting several threads on the same subject.


----------



## Hollie (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > ...because Eisenhower sensed that there would be Holocaust denial in the future....
> ...



Your conspiracy theory addled mindset makes you an obvious subject of ridicule.

Congressional Record

There's no need to Eisenhower in your conspiracy theories. He testified before congress as to what he saw.

Maybe you should devote more of your time to conspiracies involving space aliens.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 please tell us where it is being denied that 700,000 Arabs left the newly formed State of Israel, an event that some call Al Nakba.

Otherwise, please quit making this a mirror of your other thread:

Would Israel exist today without the holoccaust? And moreover...


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

Hollie said:


> ...Congressional Record
> 
> There's no need to Eisenhower in your conspiracy theories. He testified before congress as to what he saw.
> 
> Maybe you should devote more of your time to conspiracies involving space aliens.


Huh?

1) That address was from PAUL WOLFOWITZ in 2005, not Eisenhower. (LOL, know what you post!)

2) The only gas chamber reference regarded Dan Evers who was at Dachau and that "gas chamber" was for delousing or moreover, was for preventing the spread of typhus and *keeping Jews alive.* No human was ever gassed to death in it and you will not find even one respected historian today that will tell you anything else.

3) What did Eisenhower say and what didn't he?

In his "Crusade in Europe" which is nearly 600 pages, not once does he mention gas chambers, genocide of the Jews or the cabalisitic 6 million number. Furthermore, in Churchill's "Second World War" which totals 6 volumes and nearly 5000 pages, again we find not a mention of gas chambers, genocide of the Jews or the cabalisitic 6 million number. And the sane holds true for the over 2000 pages of de Gaulle's "Memoires de guerre" which was published in three volumes.


----------



## Hollie (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > ...Congressional Record
> ...



I understand you're in denial as what Eisenhower saw. 

You're in denial. You have a conspiracy theory for everything.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

Hollie said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


If you honestly think his "Crusade in Europe" was a conspiracy theory, then you are more gone than I could have imagined.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 are you going to answer my question in #241?


----------



## Lipush (Apr 1, 2017)

This thread has been hijacked.  Not that it was ever a deep and useful one,  but it was officially hijacked when it all became about a Holocaust danier getting off on showing his stupidity on board.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> louie888 are you going to answer my question in #241?


How does exterminating one group mean less than another? This should be good. And what of the Jewish genocide of the Christian Armenians? And their role in over 60 million deaths in the Bolshevik revolution? Hmmmmm?

There is no jail time for that stuff... odd? And there is no jail time for the Jews who lie about atrocities either!


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 are you going to answer my question in #241?
> ...


What?  Totally off topic. Try again reading the question I asked is the TOPIC of this thread.  Here, I'll help you:

louie888 please tell us where it is being denied that 700,000 Arabs left the newly formed State of Israel, an event that some call Al Nakba.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...


I don't see why denying all but the Jewish holocaust is OK?

How does exterminating one group mean less than another? Denying the Nakba is fine, right? Israel even created legislation that imposes economic sanctions on the organizers of Nakba commemorations. Pretty sick, no?

What of the Jewish genocide of the Christian Armenians? And their role in over 60 million deaths in the Bolshevik revolution? 

There is no jail time for that stuff... odd? And there is no jail time for the Jews who lie about atrocities either!


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Israel even created legislation that imposes economic sanctions on the organizers of Nakba commemorations


The fact that you went on some tirade instead of simply answering my question speaks volumes to me and the rest of the board about your character.  Not that we needed any more verification, lol.

Please provide some substantiation of your claim that I did quote, even though it is not a direct answer to my question.  I'll also rephrase my original question in my next post to try to make it simple for you.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 Is anyone denying the fact that the event some call Al Nakba occurred.

*YES OR NO?*


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel even created legislation that imposes economic sanctions on the organizers of Nakba commemorations
> ...


*The ‘Nakba law’ and erasing history <----Jewish source*

And it doesn't help your case that you are clueless about what you are attempting to discuss. 

*Bottom line:* Israel criminalized commemorating the Nakba, Doing so clearly is an attempt to erase Palestinian history which speaks to the very genocide you deny.

Picture if some shithole country made it illegal to commemorate the holocaust. Picture the boiling blood of you and your ilk. Now, maybe you'll get it, but I doubt that.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> *The ‘Nakba law’ and erasing history <----Jewish source*
> 
> *Bottom line:* Israel criminalized commemorating the Nakba, Doing so clearly is an attempt to erase Palestinian history which speaks to the very genocide you deny.



Wrong. Israel did not criminalize the commemorating the Nakba, though I will admit that it did try to, so I give you that.  However, from your own link this is what they ACTUALLY did:


> The “Nakba law,” which legislates *the withdrawal of state funding *from any institution that commemorates the Palestinian day of mourning,


That is not making it illegal to celebrate the Nakba, they only decided to withdraw funding to those that do.  Big difference if you ask me.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > *The ‘Nakba law’ and erasing history <----Jewish source*
> ...


I would say it is a subtle and not very important of a distinction.

Now that you got your answer, please try again here...

Israel even created legislation that imposes economic sanctions on the organizers of Nakba commemorations. Pretty sick, no?

*What of the Jewish genocide of the Christian Armenians? And their role in over 60 million deaths in the Bolshevik revolution? *

There is no jail time for that stuff... odd? *And there is no jail time for the Jews who lie about atrocities either! Is that fair?*


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Now that you got your answer, please try again here...



Actually all I have gotten is your ramblings and deflections from the actual topic of this thread as created almost six years ago.  Let me ask again:

louie888 Is anyone denying the fact that the event some call Al Nakba occurred.

*YES OR NO?*


----------



## montelatici (Apr 1, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that you got your answer, please try again here...
> ...



Ask MJB, Ruddy, Rhodes, Penelope, and all the other ZioBots. You'll get an answer.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> *YES OR NO?*


Are you daft? I addition to the legislation from Israel, one of your like minded idiots just a few posts ago wrote...



rhodescholar said:


> The nakba fraud is utter nonsense....



YES! People deny the Nakba... WAKE UP!

Now why do you keep running from simple questions?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



You seem to become very upset when someone posts some pictures from the camps or if they give a description of them.  Why is that?  You say the pictures are horrific, so imagine if you actually had to live thru it.  If you want to debate the Holocaust and claim that it never happened, then you must expect opposition, especially from people who had relatives that died there.  If you are free to say that it never happened, then we are free to post the most horrific videos, photos and descriptions possible.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> You seem to become very upset when someone posts some pictures from the camps or if they give a description of them.  Why is that?


Cuz you're high? I don't at all, but when people post a picture thinking that it proves something that it does not, it distracts from the thread as I then need to explain to them what they posted.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> If you are free to say that it never happened,...


I never said that! Read! I am only saying don't lie about what happened. It was horrible enough with what we know. Making shit up just pisses people off and turns what should be an easy discussion into something else.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> ...then we are free to post the most horrific videos, photos and descriptions possible.


That is fine. Post all the sick shit you can find, if that is really what you are into. There is plenty of it. BUT DON'T EXAGGERATE, LIE OR IN ANY OTHER WAY DISCREDIT THE TRUE TRAGEDY THAT JEWS EXPERIENCED!


----------



## rhodescholar (Apr 1, 2017)

fanger said:


> The Krema I gas chamber in the main Auschwitz camp, shown in the photo above, is a *reconstruction *which was done by the Soviet Union in 1947. Hollywood has made many a "*reconstruction"  that don't make it true*



Idiot asshole, it was the RUSSIANS who first entered auschwitz, so claiming they are falsifying anything is yet another sign of your abject stupidity and low IQ.  Second, the author of that site worked there for years, and the documented and eyewitness evidence is definitive to all but the mentally ill, which describes dogshit like you perfectly.  Huge numbers of russian POWs were killed there, so it would be best if you just shut the fuck up already.


----------



## Shusha (Apr 1, 2017)

louie888 said:


> ... when people post a picture thinking that it proves something that it does not, it distracts from the thread ...



The irony of this coming from the meme king.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > The Krema I gas chamber in the main Auschwitz camp, shown in the photo above, is a *reconstruction *which was done by the Soviet Union in 1947. Hollywood has made many a "*reconstruction"  that don't make it true*
> ...


Now you are really gonna be pissed, rs, fanger was absolutely correct. Much of "the holocaust" story sprang directly from that Russian propaganda and this is no different. This was admitted on camera by the head of the Auschwitz museum and it is accepted as fact by mainstream historians today including those at Yad Vashem.

After Cole solved this aspect of the story back in the 90s, everything started changing. What the storytellers claim today is that, yes, the Soviets did change the air-raid shelter into a gas chamber, but that it had been a gas chamber before the nazis converted into an air-raid shelter.

No, that doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

And no, you can't make this up.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 1, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> Who unfortunately to weak mod actions, has been allowed to remain and spout this garbage.  I am on over twenty political/topical discussion forums, and NONE of them allow this type of scumbag free reign like this.  Yes the turd poster already proved what type of garbage they are, but this is a black mark on the forum for tolerating such a poster, along with the other racist trash.  It is emblematic of the forum itself, as much as the poster.


Says the guy who fills this board with profanity in nearly 100% of his posts, who claims in his sig to ignore people that he lashes out at, and whose sig also calls for the genocide of the Iranians and for the death of other nation's leaders.

Now then, can you apologize to fanger?

He was absolutely correct. Much of "the holocaust" story sprang directly from that Russian propaganda and this is no different. This was admitted on camera by the head of the Auschwitz museum and it is accepted as fact by mainstream historians today including those at Yad Vashem.

After Cole solved this aspect of the story back in the 90s, everything started changing. What the storytellers claim today is that, yes, the Soviets did change the air-raid shelter into a gas chamber, but that it had been a gas chamber before the nazis converted into an air-raid shelter.

No, that doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

And no, you can't make this up.


----------



## rhodescholar (Apr 2, 2017)

The Liberators: America's Witnesses to the Holocaust: Michael Hirsh: 9780553807561: Amazon.com: Books

"At last, the everyday fighting men who were the first Americans to know the full and horrifying truth about the Holocaust share their astonishing stories. Rich with powerful never-before-published details from the author’s interviews with more than 150 U.S. soldiers who liberated the Nazi death camps, The Liberators is an essential addition to the literature of World War II—and a stirring testament to Allied courage in the face of inconceivable atrocities.

Taking us from the beginnings of the liberators’ final march across Germany to V-E Day and beyond, Michael Hirsh allows us to walk in their footsteps, experiencing the journey as they themselves experienced it. But this book is more than just an in-depth account of the liberation. It reveals how profoundly these young men were affected by what they saw—the unbelievable horror and pathos they felt upon seeing “stacks of bodies like cordwood” and “skeletonlike survivors” in camp after camp. That life-altering experience has stayed with them to this very day. It’s been well over half a century since the end of World War II, and they still haven’t forgotten what the camps looked like, how they smelled, what the inmates looked like, and how it made them feel. Many of the liberators suffer from what’s now called post-traumatic stress disorder and still experience Holocaust-related nightmares.  "


----------



## rhodescholar (Apr 2, 2017)

Story of a Secret State: My Report to the World: Jan Karski, Madeleine Albright: 9781626160316: Amazon.com: Books

"Jan Karski's_ Story of a Secret State_ stands as one of the most poignant and inspiring memoirs of World War II and the Holocaust. With elements of a spy thriller, documenting his experiences in the Polish Underground, and as one of the first accounts of the systematic slaughter of the Jews by the German Nazis, this volume is a remarkable testimony of one man's courage and a nation's struggle for resistance against overwhelming oppression. 

Karski was a brilliant young diplomat when war broke out in 1939 with Hitler's invasion of Poland. Taken prisoner by the Soviet Red Army, which had simultaneously invaded from the East, Karski narrowly escaped the subsequent Katyn Forest Massacre. He became a member of the Polish Underground, the most significant resistance movement in occupied Europe, acting as a liaison and courier between the Underground and the Polish government-in-exile. He was twice smuggled into the Warsaw Ghetto, and entered the Nazi's Izbica transit camp disguised as a guard, witnessing first-hand the horrors of the Holocaust."


----------



## louie888 (Apr 2, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> ...seeing “stacks of bodies like cordwood” and “skeletonlike survivors” in camp after camp....


Sigh...

Noone denies any of that. Historians know that after the allies bombed Europe, the Germans had no way of providing the food, the medicine, or the ability to control the lice. In other words, *all those things that were keeping the Jews alive* were no longer available to the camps.




rhodescholar said:


> Story of a Secret State: My Report to the World: Jan Karski, Madeleine Albright: 9781626160316: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> "Jan Karski's_ Story of a Secret State_...


Now I know that you have never even read these books that you link to. I have read this one and it is a joke. The guy doesn't mention gas chambers one time and only speaks of a quicklime train.

LOL - Karski is crazier than you.


----------



## Humanity (Apr 2, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> louie888 Is anyone denying the fact that the event some call Al Nakba occurred.
> 
> *YES OR NO?*



You aren't seriously expecting a straight, honest answer from Screwy are you?


----------



## Lipush (Apr 2, 2017)

Humanity said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 Is anyone denying the fact that the event some call Al Nakba occurred.
> ...


----------



## louie888 (Apr 2, 2017)

Are you people high or do you not read the very threads you try to derail?

It was answered a few times and became clear for him in post #252...* teddyderp* even rated  the post as "informative."

Here it is again:



teddyearp said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel even created legislation that imposes economic sanctions on the organizers of Nakba commemorations
> ...


*The ‘Nakba law’ and erasing history <----Jewish source*

And it doesn't help your case that you are clueless about what you are attempting to discuss.

*Bottom line:* Israel criminalized commemorating the Nakba, Doing so clearly is an attempt to erase Palestinian history which speaks to the very genocide you deny.

Picture if some shithole country made it illegal to commemorate the holocaust. Picture the boiling blood of you and your ilk. Now, maybe you'll get it, but I doubt that.

And in post #257, it became more clear for him...

Are you daft? In addition to the legislation from Israel, one of your like minded idiots just a few posts ago wrote...



rhodescholar said:


> The nakba fraud is utter nonsense....



YES! People deny the Nakba... WAKE UP!

*So now we know that the same fascist shitheads who made free speech regarding WWII a criminal offense have also enacted legislation which penalizes those who even commemorate of the Nakba.

I hope that helped.*


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 2, 2017)

louie888 said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > *YES OR NO?*
> ...


I would bring rhodes in here to clarify, but he cannot at this time.  However, reading the rest of his post that you left out, he is not denying that 700,000 Arabs left the newly formed State of Israel, so try again. Those who you consider 'Nakba deniers' are not denying the event at all, unlike you with the Holocaust. They only have exception with the name that the Arabs use as it translates to 'disaster' or 'catastrophe'.  Do you now understand what the difference is?  I doubt it. You have proven over and over again that answering a simple yes or no question is beyond your scope of comprehension.

Your other questions I am ignoring as they are not the topic of this thread.


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## teddyearp (Apr 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Ask MJB, Ruddy, Rhodes,* Penelope,* and all the other ZioBots. You'll get an answer.


LOL on calling Penelope a Ziobot. LOL on you resorting to name calling.  Again.

And as I said, the actual question is does anyone (including the 'Ziobots') deny that 700,000 Arabs left the newly formed State of Israel?

Yes or No?


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## teddyearp (Apr 2, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Are you people high or do you not read the very threads you try to derail?
> 
> It was answered a few times and became clear for him in post #252...* teddyderp* even rated  the post as "informative."
> <snip>
> ...


You never answered my simple yes or no question.  I rated your post #252 as informative because, unlike you, I DO read and try to expand my knowledge instead of just sticking to one single narrative. I never knew about some 'Nakba Law', however, as I already posted, the Nakba Law as passed does NOT make it illegal to celebrate Al Nakba.  I see you have changed it to penalize.  Well, I suppose withholding of state funds to organizations that support said 'celebrations' (or protests) could be considered a penalty.

As far as your partial quote of what rhodes said, I already addressed that above.


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## Coyote (Apr 2, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> I need to correct an earlier post of mine in this thread. I inaccurately inadvertently seemingly addressed the reply, that I will be repeating again, to the latest board clown, screwy; I now see that I should have quoted the actual OP of this thread, the user whom hasn't logged in here for 5-1/2 years or so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Here's the thing...both the Holocaust  and Nakba occurred.  The difference is in the magnitude, the scale and the "final solution".  Nakba did include a rounding up and extermination plan, did not involve anywhere near that number of people and occurred within an ongoing conflict between those peoples.  So those are the differences.

The similarity is that it was a focal point that represented a great tragedy and loss for the Palestinians.  Denying it, is denying them their history.  It's like the Turks denying the Armenian genocide.  There is a concerted effort to deny it ever occurred, to make acknowledgement of it or memorializing it - a crime.

So the OP is saying...why is Holocaust Denial a crime...but denying Al Nakba not?  Worse - the victors in that conflict, have made memorializing it a crime.


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## Coyote (Apr 2, 2017)

louie888 said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 are you going to answer my question in #241?
> ...



No one is saying exterminating one group means less than another.  But the Palestinians weren't exterminated nor was there a plan to exterminate them.

There was no "Jewish genocide of Christian Armenians".  Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia


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## teddyearp (Apr 2, 2017)

Here's my rub. Where is anyone denying the 'nakba' occurred? Unlike the holocaust where there are many denying that it ever happened, everyone admits that 700,000 Arabs left Israel after its creation.


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## Coyote (Apr 2, 2017)

*I'm going to say something here in my moderator voice.  The question has been asked - why do we tolerate antisemitic scum?*

*USMB has always tried to be a "free speech" board as much as it is possible.  This means we have to tolerate those who's views we find abhorant to some extent IF we we expect our own views to be tolerated.  Some folks are real scumwaffles, some of them just support views we don't happen to agree with - but they do have a right to their voice WITHIN the rules.   IP is not the place for generic anti-semitic (or anti-muslim) propoganda or conspiracy theory threads - much of that gets tossed into other areas.  But the OP in this thread was relevent.*

*We put IP under Zone 2 so people who really DID want to discuss about the I/P conflict could do so without having to read through page after page of derailing flame fests. It's hard enough to keep people on-topic, without also having to deal with off topic flaming. *

*If you don't like certain posters? Well attack their arguments, it's the best way to counter it.*

*And kudos (and M&M's) to Teddy for working so hard to get certain folks discussing the topic.*


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## Coyote (Apr 2, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Here's my rub. Where is anyone denying the 'nakba' occurred? Unlike the holocaust where there are many denying that it ever happened, everyone admits that 700,000 Arabs left Israel after its creation.



I think the dispute lies in whether they left voluntarily or involuntarily.


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## teddyearp (Apr 2, 2017)

Coyote said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my rub. Where is anyone denying the 'nakba' occurred? Unlike the holocaust where there are many denying that it ever happened, everyone admits that 700,000 Arabs left Israel after its creation.
> ...


Exactly! But does that also count as 'denial'? That has been my point in trying to stay on topic.

P.s. I feel warm and fuzzy and love m&M's, lol!


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## Coyote (Apr 2, 2017)

I think it does...because the involuntary nature of it is what made it a tragedy to the Palestinians, it's what made it what it is.

It's kind of like saying...if you argue about certain details of the Holocaust...does that make it "denial"?  For example, the Holocaust can't be "inviolate' to discussion, to contradicting certain aspects of it - history works by being open to it.  To a certain extent.  So arguing about exact numbers for instance, isn't denial because exact numbers aren't known.  But claiming that there were no gas chambers, human experiments, or large numbers of people killed would because a lot of that is well documented by the Germans and by their testimony.


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## teddyearp (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't quite see it that way, in context with this thread. Again, nobody is denying that 700,000 Arabs left the newly created State of Israel. Nobody is even quibbling about the amount. The only thing being "denied" about the Nakba is the why. Mainly because those who are perceived as 'deniers' take umbrage with the translation, calling it a catastrophe. If holocaust deniers were only taking umbrage with it being called "the holocaust" then it would be different (and/or actually the same), do you understand where I am going with this?

P.s. love m&M's but really prefer Reese's pieces, lol!


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## montelatici (Apr 2, 2017)

So, we have one group saying that 700,000 people left their homes (or were killed) and lands to European invaders to willingly become refugees, and that is considered reasonable. Denying that the Muslims and Christians were forcibly removed (or killed) or fled for their lives is just as ridiculous as denying the Holocaust.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> So, we have one group saying that 700,000 people left their homes (or were killed) and lands to European invaders to willingly become refugees, and that is considered reasonable. Denying that the Muslims and Christians were forcibly removed (or killed) or fled for their lives is just as ridiculous as denying the Holocaust.


You're missing my point. I realize I haven't been clear. 700,000 Arabs left. Did they leave of their own accord or were they forced out? I believe it was a mix.


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## montelatici (Apr 2, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > So, we have one group saying that 700,000 people left their homes (or were killed) and lands to European invaders to willingly become refugees, and that is considered reasonable. Denying that the Muslims and Christians were forcibly removed (or killed) or fled for their lives is just as ridiculous as denying the Holocaust.
> ...



There was no mix.  No one leaves their home and land unless they are threatened by harm.

"...... a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948”. This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. “At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.” To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration”. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. *As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases..."*
*
The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 2, 2017)

Coyote said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my rub. Where is anyone denying the 'nakba' occurred? Unlike the holocaust where there are many denying that it ever happened, everyone admits that 700,000 Arabs left Israel after its creation.
> ...


The right of return applies to everyone without regard to why they left. Why they left is irrelevant.


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## Indeependent (Apr 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...


Just like the right to live applies everywhere in the Muslim world.


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## teddyearp (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> There was no mix.  No one leaves their home and land unless they are threatened by harm.



If you look at all the articles and accounts, there must have been a mix.  You are only looking at one.


----------



## louie888 (Apr 3, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > There was no mix.  No one leaves their home and land unless they are threatened by harm.
> ...


So... after you spent several pages derailing this thread  while whining about how "nobody denies the Nakba," and after being shown the evidence from Israeli law and posters right here on this thread, you yourself continue to deny the Nakba. 

Well done, *teddyderp.*


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## teddyearp (Apr 3, 2017)

I am not denying it happened. English is not your strong suit.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > There was no mix.  No one leaves their home and land unless they are threatened by harm.
> ...




If you read the propaganda, you are led to believe the preposterous notion (propaganda) that the Muslims and Christians left their homes and lands willingly. How can any reasonable person believe such nonsense.  That propaganda was debunked long ago.  

I look at facts from source documents. You read revisionist propaganda compiled after the fact to justify the ethnic cleansing and genocide perpetrated by the Zionists.


----------



## Shusha (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> If you read the propaganda, you are led to believe the preposterous notion (propaganda) that the Muslims and Christians left their homes and lands willingly.



Of course they didn't.  They left under conditions of fleeing a war, or being removed due to a war.  It happened on both sides, and is a normal (if terrible) consequence of war.

This is not at ALL the same as the deliberate, systematic extermination of an entire peoples.  They are not equivalent and should not be compared as such.


----------



## teddyearp (Apr 3, 2017)

Teddyearp: "is not"
Monti: "is so"
Repeated forever and ever until teddyearp let's monti have the last post.

Teddy ain't playing no more.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > If you read the propaganda, you are led to believe the preposterous notion (propaganda) that the Muslims and Christians left their homes and lands willingly.
> ...


I realize that deep thinking is not the Zionist's long suit. Ethnic cleansing was not a consequence of war. It was the reason for the war.

The Zionists wanted a majority Jewish state where the Jews were only 1/3 of the population. That meant that a lot of Palestinians had to go. There was no other option.


----------



## Coyote (Apr 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



But the Palestinians also did NOT want a Jewish state...it kind of worked both ways, without enough people willing to work together for the rights of all.  It was Zionism vs Arab Nationalism and no meeting in the middle.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Of course they did not want a settler colonial project inside their state. Name another people in the world who would accept such a thing. Particularly since the word was that the Zionists wanted to take over the whole place.


----------



## Shusha (Apr 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Ethnic cleansing was not a consequence of war. It was the reason for the war.
> 
> The Zionists wanted a majority Jewish state where the Jews were only 1/3 of the population. That meant that a lot of Palestinians had to go. There was no other option.



As Coyote also said -- it worked both ways.  Both Jewish nationalists and Arab nationalists wanted (needed, need) a homogeneous *enough* population to bring about a national self-determination. And both groups created "facts on the ground" by using military strength to rid the territory they controlled of the "enemy" population.  That is what the war was.

After WWI and WWII, when the time of large Empires came to an end, smaller, tribal-based nationalities became the norm.  An exchange of population as a consequence of distinct, smaller nationalisms was quite normal for the times and even fifty years later -- see examples such as Yugoslavia.  In fact, there are numbers in the millions of peoples who were transferred.  It was common.  (And, in nearly every case, it actually solved the problem).

But it is an error to claim that it was (is) only one side which wanted (needed, wants, needs) a relatively homogeneous population.  Let alone that only one side managed to accomplish such a thing!  If we compare the two sides we see that the Arabs were FAR more successful in their removal of Jews throughout the Arab world than the Jews were in removal of Arabs on the tiny slice that is now Israel or on the slightly larger slice which should have been the Jewish National Homeland.  Whether that is a result of incompetence on the part of the Jewish people (unlikely) or a lack of will is of no consequence except on silly forums like this one.  

The point being that there is no moral equivalence between an EQUAL requirement for a homogeneous population and the military will and power to create such a reality in war and the deliberate, systematic extermination of a peoples.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Ethnic cleansing was not a consequence of war. It was the reason for the war.
> ...


So the settler colonial project had to be equal or more that the native population?

I don't see your point.


----------



## yiostheoy (Apr 3, 2017)

bluemoon22 said:


> Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?
> 
> I found this poll and blog to be an excellent question with some great videos. People go to jail in Germany if they deny the Holocaust, but and in typical Racist fashion the Zionists would like to punish Palestinians for remembering and telling the world it happened.


spam.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Ethnic cleansing was not a consequence of war. It was the reason for the war.
> ...



How can you compare the rights of the people inhabiting a territory with the rights of the people living on another continent planning to colonize the territory?  Don't you realize it's an altogether crazy concept?


----------



## Hollie (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Inhabiting an area (squatting the land), doesn't entitle ownership. 

You should eventually realize that the geographic area you falsely believe to be your invented "Magical Kingdom of Disney Pally'land" was controlled by the Ottoman's who released all rights and title to the Mandatory.


----------



## Shusha (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> How can you compare the rights of the people inhabiting a territory with the rights of the people living on another continent planning to colonize the territory?  Don't you realize it's an altogether crazy concept?



It might have been a crazy concept had it not happened over and over and over again throughout human history.  As it is -- it is no where near a crazy concept.  Rather banal, actually.  Yawn inducing.  Soporific.  Chamomile tea.  Are you suggesting that colonizers have NO rights?  Ever?  In all of space and time on our tiny little planet?  Are you suggesting that we -- all people -- be restored to where we were originally living?  As though you could measure such a thing?  As though it was possible to measure such a thing, no matter how good we get at dissecting DNA.  

If you are really so beholden to this idea that colonizers have no rights -- defend the idea.  Defend not only the idea in principle -- but the idea that this lack of rights, in practice, requires not only prevention, but remedy.  Defend it vis a vis the Americas.  Africa.  Australia. I rather think you can't, or won't.  Because you really don't have a problem with colonization in the objective, universal sense. You reject it only with respect to Israel (read: the Jewish people), and I'm afraid, then, your anti-semitism slip is showing.  You are, as always, free to prove me wrong.  There are plenty of examples.  The example of the Americas is, perhaps, most compelling, but you might discuss East Timor, Western Sahara, Cyprus or any other number of current examples.  


No, the idea of colonizers, or of colonizers having rights, is not in the slightest an interesting idea.  Far, far more intriguing is the entirely unique idea that migration of peoples back to their ancestral homeland is morally abhorrent and should be prevented and, failing that, undone.  Now THAT is an entirely new concept.  And, what is truly interesting about it is that it has no moral counter.  One can not say that people have no right to return home and be taken seriously.  That is unthinkable.  That is morally ridiculous.


----------



## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

"I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize man than any other nation."  Letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


"planning"...


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > How can you compare the rights of the people inhabiting a territory with the rights of the people living on another continent planning to colonize the territory?  Don't you realize it's an altogether crazy concept?
> ...



Colonizers have no rights at all when they intend to replace the native population with themselves.  It is a criminal enterprise, whether it is successful or not in the long term.   The European Jews were not returning home, they were Europeans.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Yes planning.

"Zionists plan to colonize Palestine in 1899 NY Times





*An article about a Conference of Zionists published on July 20, 1899 in the New York Times depicts how the Conference sought to “colonize Palestine” and discussed the purchasing of land with English Zionists.*
*World Bulletin/News Desk*

An article about a Conference of Zionists published on July 20, 1899 in the New York Times expresses that the Zionists “will colonize Palestine.”

The article explains that the conference discussed a paper from the English Zionist Federation “proposing the re-establishment of Judea as an independent State, suggesting the purchase of the Maccabean sites in Palestine, and the beginning of the work by the establishment of a Jewish colony and a Jewish Agricultural College there.”

It further clarifies that “The site to be purchased comprises about fifty acres, six miles from a station on the railroad between Jappa and Jerusalem, and within sight of the sea and a large stretch of the Palestinian coast.”

It notes that English Zionists have gathered 2,500 dollars in the currency of the period and request that quantity from the American Zionists.

The article also explains that “On motion of Dr. Wise, the Federation voted $100 as the nucleus of the required fund of $2,500, the remainder to be raised by subscriptions from the 125 societies and individuals, both Jews and Gentiles. A general appeal to the public will be made.”

It also conveys that delegates will be elected at the Zionist meeting in Baltimore.






The straightforward and comfortable manner with which the colonization is pursued is indicative how, before having to be concerned with the image of Zionism and public relations, Zionist leaders depicted their movement as a colonial mission during a time in which European nations were colonial powers. "

Zionists plan to colonize Palestine in 1899 NY Times - World Bulletin


----------



## Shusha (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Colonizers have no rights at all when they intend to replace the native population with themselves.  It is a criminal enterprise, whether it is successful or not in the long term.   The European Jews were not returning home, they were Europeans.



Then you need to get your ass in gear in correcting the COLOSSAL wrong of the Americas, Africa and Australia and leave the Jewish people, who are not colonizers but returnees to their ancestral homelands, alone.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Colonizers have no rights at all when they intend to replace the native population with themselves.  It is a criminal enterprise, whether it is successful or not in the long term.   The European Jews were not returning home, they were Europeans.
> ...



The Europeans were able to eliminate the native people for the most part in the Americas and Oceania.  Notably, in some Latin American countries the native people have taken back control, e.g. Bolivia.  

They (the Europeans) weren't able to eliminate the native people in Africa, and the native people regained their land and control.  

The Europeans have not been able to do the same as they did in the Americas and Oceania in the Middle East.  Europeans are not returnees to the Middle East, they are European colonists.  You can make up fairy tales, but European Jews are Europeans, not Middle Eastern.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Oh, look!
A photograph of an article.
Oh, those dirty Jews...

Do us all a favor and seek therapy.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Nothing dirty, just fact.  Do us a favor, have you cognizant dissonance checked out.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Do everyone a favor and write a book using your usual method of presenting facts out of order and out of context.
You have less than 10 fools here who swallow your bullshit.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



What is out of order and out of context?  A NYT article states clearly that the Zionists intend to colonize Palestine in 1899.  Fact is not bullshit.  You are the bullshitter that only spouts propaganda.


----------



## fncceo (Apr 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Do you want to stop antisemitism?



Antisemitism has always been with us and always will. It's normal for people to hate their intellectual and social superiors.  Envy of Jews is visceral in some non-Jews. 

But, today overt antisemitism in the West is limited to anonymous rantings on the Internet.  

Antisemites have no power to adversely affect Jews as they did in the past.  They serve only as a reminder of why Jews need to be strong and vigilant.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Ooh, an article in the NYT!
As we all now, the NYT has been a fan of Jews since, well, never.
You really are ignorant.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



So, you believe that the European Jews did not intend to colonize Palestine and create a Jewish state?  Do you believe that the Jewish Telegraphic Agency is also anti-Jewish?

*Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committee*

*July 25, 1926

2SHARES
London (Jul. 23)

(Jewish Telegraphic Agency)


The contemplated trip to the United States of Dr. Chaim Weizmann, president of the World Zionist Organization, the continuation of his efforts while in America to extend the Jewish Agency through his negotiations with the Marshall group, the possibilities of extending Jewish colonization work outside of the present Palestine frontiers, including. Transjordania and certain parts of Syria, were the main features around which the deliberations centered."*

*Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committ*


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Here's where your blind hatred of Jews betrays itself.
I will presume you didn't grow up reading the NYT or other assimilated, self-hating Jew owner/operated newspapers.
That's why you come off as such a buffoon.
Until the 80s there were few, if any, pro-Jewish English newspapers or magazines.
You will study your Jew publications such as the Jewish Week which is as hateful to Jews as one could get.
You are completely out of your league insofar as knowing when it comes to discerning Christian wanna-be Jews.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 3, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



No, I am presenting fact.  You are delusional.  The JTA (Jewish telegraphic Agency) article was from the 1920s.  Nothing Christian about it.  You are out of your league.  I present the facts.


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## Indeependent (Apr 3, 2017)

montelatici said:


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You go right ahead and tell a Jew about his own people's publications.
Keep digging.


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## Shusha (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> The Europeans were able to eliminate the native people for the most part in the Americas and Oceania.


 And your point being?  Is this a morally good thing or a morally wrong thing?  For the native people to be eliminated?  Or just a thing thing -- can't unbreak the egg thing and it really doesn't matter if its morally right or morally wrong thing?


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
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> > The Europeans were able to eliminate the native people for the most part in the Americas and Oceania.
> ...



I am simply presenting fact.  Of course eliminating the native people was morally wrong, today the perpetrators would be found guilty of genocide.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.  Do you think that writing "keep digging"  changes the fact that the Jews intended to colonize Palestine (and further)?  Something you denied.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
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Look,  dumbo, you're quoting sources without knowing their agenda.
90% of Jews don't support Israel until they're attacked, then they support Israel 1,000%.
The sources you quote are Israel's worst enemy...self-hating Jews who publish lies to further their agenda.
You really are an idiot.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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Let me get this straight:

1. Dr. Chaim Weizmann, president of the World Zionist Organization was a self-hating Jew.
2. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency is/was made up of self-hating Jews.
3. When Weizmann stated, in 1923, that he thought it possible to extend the colonization of Palestine to Transjordania, he said it because he had a self-hating Jew agenda.

“Due to the success of our colonization work in Palestine proper, it is possible that eventually our colonization work will be extended beyond the frontiers of Transjordania. It is true that the Palestine government has not taken a clear stand in regard to its economic policy, but well founded demands have every prospect of being agreed to. A great deal has been achieved during the last months,”  
Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committ


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## Humanity (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Oh please...

No they would so NOT be found guilty of genocide!!!

What 'did' for most of the native Americans was disease NOT war!


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Humanity said:


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Your comment would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

*"CALIFORNIA SLAUGHTER: THE STATE-SANCTIONED GENOCIDE OF NATIVE AMERICANS*

*"The tally is relentlessly grim: a whole settlement wiped out in Trinity County “excepting a few children”; an Indian girl raped and left to die somewhere near Mendocino; as many as 50 killed at Goose Lake; and, two months later, as many as 257 murdered at Grouse Creek, scores of them women and children. There were the four white ranchers who tracked down a band of Yana to a cave, butchering 30. “In the cave with the meat were some Indian children,” reported a chronicle published later. One of the whites “could not bear to kill these children with his 56-calibre Spencer rifle. ‘It tore them up so bad.’ So he did it with his 38-calibre Smith and Wesson revolver.”*
California's state-sanctioned genocide of Native Americans

*THE AMERICAN HOLOCAUST AND AMERICAN HOLOCAUST DENIAL*

Unfortunately, there are those who wish to engage in holocaust denial.  A common myth is the effort to blame the massive death toll exclusively on diseases brought by the European invaders.   Like all deceptions in history there is an element of truth here.  Many native Americans did die of European diseases.  However, there is a very convenient effort to ignore the fact that all too many of these people became vulnerable to disease when their essentials of life were either stolen or disrupted by the invaders.  Furthermore, the campaigns of direct and indirect genocide certainly killed millions all by itself.



From the initial invasion by Columbus native Americans were the targets of hundreds of years of war from the invaders.   Does any honest person really believe that these wars had only minor death toll?

In the USA native Americans were driven off 99% of their land and herded into so-called "reservations", where they were subjected to some of the worst poverty and horrible living conditions in the country.
*NATIVE AMERICAN GENOCIDE*


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## Hollie (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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"From the initial invasion by Columbus native Americans were the targets of hundreds of years of war from the invaders. Does any honest person really believe that these wars had only minor death toll?"

Interesting point. Those European xtians sure were a bloodthirsty, colonizing lot.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

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Chaim Weizmann lived during a very shitty era for Jews.
You think he didn't want to live somewhere where Jews wouldn't be oppressed?
He was so evil because he wanted Jews to live in Israel.
Oooooooooooh.
What about all those Catholics and Protestants who were busy killing each other for 1,000 years?

Jewish Telegraphic Agency...Ooh!  Those evil Jews!
I don't know what their agenda was back in the early 20th century.
And neither do you.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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Who said anything about Weizmann being evil?

I know that they they were colonists, I take their word for it.  It is you that are denying the fact.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

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And please let us know which Islamic and Christian nations were living side by side peacefully during that era.
You know, around WWI, which led directly to WWII.
Yep...all those non-Jew were just happy as pigs in shit...*right*?
Colonists...the whole freaking Eastern hemisphere was planning to colonize each other.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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Ok, after all that, you finally accept that the Zionists were colonists in Palestine.  The Palestinians were not planning to colonize anyone.


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## Hollie (Apr 4, 2017)

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The Arabs-Moslems had already colonized the area. 

You have great difficulty with facts but being in denial of the facts doesn't make them go away.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

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What I admit is that the Jews wanted to get away from all the insane non-Jews.
And what normal thinking person living in 2017 would disagree with that?
The Jews have never changed their philosophy of live and let live.
For Christians, that mentality is about 20 years old.
For Muslims, well we all know what they consider to be having a good time is...blowing every up.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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If they wanted to get away from non-Jews, why did they go to where all the people were either Muslim or Christian.  People who they would have had to evict in order to colonize the area?

Why didn't they go to some uninhabited area of the world?


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

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Because wherever the Jews wanted to go the non-Jews said, "Nope!  We're sticking you suckers with our nomad pawns in the land of Canaan".
As if a historical expert like you didn't already know the answer.
But of course you did.
Looks like that plan backfired.


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## fncceo (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Why didn't they go to some uninhabited area of the world?



Since, in 1948, there were no uninhabited regions of the world, they did the first-best thing.... they went HOME.

I know you hate that, the same way you hate Jews.  So I'll leave you a little message.  Have these words tattooed on your body so you can look at them any time you think you can do something about that.


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## Shusha (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Why didn't they go to some uninhabited area of the world?



You've GOT to be kidding me.  

The Jewish people went home.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Shusha said:


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> ...



No the Zionists, Europeans, colonized a land and evicted the indigenous people. That's just fact when you take away the veil.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

fncceo said:


> montelatici said:
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> > Why didn't they go to some uninhabited area of the world?
> ...


Monty's questions about "uninhabited regions" struck me as a bit strange.
On the other hand, I'm exhausted from preparing for Pesach.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Indigenous?
You're way funny.
And more than a bit of a psycho.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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When all the non-Jews go back to where they were when the 2nd Temple was destroyed, we'll talk.
Till then, eat shit.


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## Shusha (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Seriously?  Are you arguing that the Jewish people don't believe that they are going home?


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## Eloy (Apr 4, 2017)

Shusha said:


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I know a Jewish family who live in San Carlos, California and I can testify from being their guest that they are very much at home.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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You really should read a bit of real history before posting nonsense. All that propaganda has gone to your head.

Do you think that millions of desert dwellers from the Arabian peninsula settled in Palestine?  There were very few people in the Arabian desert, the few oasis could support only a few 100 thousand people at the time.  

The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the indigenous people many of whose ancestors were Jews that converted to Christianity when Christianity became the state religion of the Roman empire in 380AD.  Most of these Christians converted to Islam in the centuries after the conquest of Palestine by the Muslims in 638 AD.

Just facts from a very Jewish site:


*Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted to Christianity, and later Islam, not Arab in origin*

Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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People that practice Judaism may believe it, but it is fiction.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

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You mean like the rights of the Jews inhabiting that territory and desiring a Jewish homeland?


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

Hollie said:


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The Palestinians aren't squatters.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

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Do you have a similar problem with the influx of other Arabs who migrated into the area during that same era?  If you're going to bang on about "foreign Jews" then you're remarkably silent about "foreign Arabs".


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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What Arabs immigrated to the area?  More Arabs from Palestine immigrated to Egypt to work with the British that had the Suez Canal and a large garrison there which provided more employment opportunities than in Palestine.  From 1920 to 1946 there was hardly any Arab immigration into Palestine. As the Survey of Palestine depicts in the table below. Of the 414 thousand or so immigrants to Palestine, 376 thousand were Jews.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

......


montelatici said:


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Not really.  There's a good bit of archeological evidence supporting it.  Also, genetic studies.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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There was Arab immigration, legal and illegal - it's impossible to discern exact numbers, and it is usually inflated those wanting to claim Palestinians are squatters - but there was Arab immigration.

You're trying to claim that it's somehow "different" than Jewish immigration.  It's not.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> ......
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What genetic studies? This one?

*"Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts"*

Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts | Genetic Literacy Project


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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There was hardly any Arab immigration to Palestine. Why do you and others parrot Zionist propaganda?  The facts are available within the UN archives. 


*UNITED*
*NATIONS
A*






*General Assembly*













 A/364
3 September 1947
*OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE SECOND SESSION OF *
*THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY*


*SUPPLEMENT No. 11*



*UNITED NATIONS*
*SPECIAL COMMITTEE*
*ON PALESTINE*



*REPORT TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY*

*VOLUME 1*





*Lake Success*
*New York*
*1947*


(b) IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration. From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

*16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths. *

A/364 of 3 September 1947


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

So it's now 2017.

And we are discussing events that unfolded over the past...what...150 years?

Events that included the toppling and division of empires, the rise of ethnic nationalism, and the end of colonial projects, the creation of new states.

So what difference does it make NOW to keep rehashing these same things? 

At this point - the "squatters" or "colonists" (depending on which side you're shooting from) have been there for generations if not centuries if not millinium.

So what?


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> So it's now 2017.
> 
> And we are discussing events that unfolded over the past...what...150 years?
> 
> ...



The colonists from Europe began arriving in earnest after 1920.  Not that long ago.  I don't get your point.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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I was thinking of this one:  Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
Jews break down into three genetic groups, all of which have Middle Eastern origins – which are shared with the Palestinians and Druze.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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European Jews are European.  Southern Europeans have as many, if not more genetic ties to the Middle East as European Jews.  There were certainly a few Jews among the indigenous people of Palestine/Israel that for one reason or another did not convert to Christianity, but it was a tiny number.  Non-Christians were not allowed to reside in Jerusalem after 380 AD, nearly all (Jews, Pagans, Samaritans) converted to Christianity and a tiny number that had nothing to lose by leaving just left. 

From 'The Scientist" magazine which doesn't have an axe to grind.

"The majority of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from prehistoric European women..."

http://www.the-scientist.com/?artic...21/title/Genetic-Roots-of-the-Ashkenazi-Jews/


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 4, 2017)

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The Palestinian Jews were living in their homeland. They were opposed to forming a Jewish state. They said that a Jewish state would bring generations of death and destruction as it turned out to be.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Some were opposed, others desired it...there was a lot of ethnic nationalism and independence movements going on with the break up of empires.  And a lot of blood shed.  Seems a bit unfair to single out just the Jews in this.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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Well, if the Zionist Jews did not set out to colonize the area, would there have been all the bloodshed?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 4, 2017)

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The foreign Arabs did not go there to kick people out and take their place. That is immigration not colonization.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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I don't think it's fair to say Jews came there to "kick people out".  In fact, Jewish immigration did not displace Palestinians.  War did, and  subsequent expulsions.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


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One could also argue that if the Arab's had not set out to prevent a Jewish state, would there have been all the bloodshed?

It's a hard question to answer and illegal immigration from both Arabs and Jews might have contributed to it, but it's only one of many factors.  The nationalistic aspirations of both Arabs and Jews collided.


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## Shusha (Apr 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Seriously?  So when the Arabs do it it's just immigration. But when the Jewish people migrate to their own ancestral lands it takes in a sinister tone. 

Sounds suspiciously like a racial prejudice.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 4, 2017)

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The purpose of the war was to expel the Palestinians. The Zionist's goal was always all of Palestine without the Palestinians. It would be impossible to create a Jewish state where only 1/3 of the population was Jewish. The Palestinians had to go. It didn't just happen because of war. It was a necessity.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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Actually...1882 marked the first large scale immigration....around the same time as America also saw large swells in immigration.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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Of course the Jews went to Palestine to remove the non-Jews.  That is what colonization seeks to do.


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## Shusha (Apr 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Yep. Sure. The Zionists tricked all those Arab countries into attacking so they would have an excuse to expel the Arabs.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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Stop it.  There was no Arab illegal immigration.  The Christians and Muslims were living in Palestine. The Jews lived in Europe. 



*"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."*

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59



Conversely:

" *It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants* who have
settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. The number of Jewish illegal
immigrants recorded during 1945 is 370."

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1  | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University 
A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 Berman Jewish Policy Archive NYU Wagner


Setting aside this strange construct which purports that giving back stolen property is somehow a sign of generosity, number 4. can be proven false indisputably:

*"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."*

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 Berman Jewish Policy Archive NYU Wagner

Conversely:

" *It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants* who have
settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. The number of Jewish illegal
immigrants recorded during 1945 is 370."

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54


A Survey of Palestine Volume 1  | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 4, 2017)

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Israeli propaganda. Over 300,000 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the 1948 war. The war with the surrounding countries was a side issue.


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## Coyote (Apr 4, 2017)

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It's funny to use this source in this argument because I usually use it against those who claim all the Palestinians are squatters.  It's opening paragraph is spot on.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

_The goal of the present is to examine the claims in the light of the best available statistical data, *without supporting the contentions of either side, and without any intention either to denigrate from the tragedy of Palestinian refugees or to use the data to question Jewish claims to Palestine.* The moral claims of the sides* should not depend on percentages of population*. In practice, I am aware that the data on this page have been used to support various partisan claims. That is precisely the sort of abuse that this material is intended to fight.  The major conclusion is *"The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times"*  Anyone who pretends otherwise is deliberately misleading you. We can reach some general conclusions - Palestine was not empty when Zionists started arriving, there was some Arab immigration as well etc. But we cannot give a precise number in any case, and even if we could, it would not constitute evidence to back any moral claims. 

_​


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> ...
> 
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Well, if you want to disregard official and professional source data available from historical archives and rather believe a blog that wants everyone to be  happy, it isn't really worth discussing.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 4, 2017)

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There should not be a question about who is a Palestinian. The Palestinian Citizenship order of 1925 stated that all Turkish subjects who normally lived inside Palestine's international borders would automatically become Palestinian citizens. This reflected was was stated in Article 30 in the Treaty of Lausanne. That information is, or should be, in Turkish and British archives.

Palestinians who were not present at the time of the citizenship order (due to travel, education, employment, etc.) had 2 years (???) to return to Palestine to claim their citizenship. Citizenship was well recorded by Britain. This included Muslims, Christians, and Jews without exception.


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## montelatici (Apr 4, 2017)

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The Arab League intervened to try to stop the Jews from ethnically cleansing the non-Jews.  Jaffa had been put under siege by the Jews long before the Arab Leagues intervention.  In fact, it surrendered to the Jews before the Arab League intervened.  Plan Dalet, the plan to evict the non-Jews had been implemented long before the Arab League attempted to save the non-Jews.


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## Indeependent (Apr 4, 2017)

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Why do you continue to engage with the mentally deranged Monty (Python)?


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## Shusha (Apr 4, 2017)

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The Palestinian Citizenship Order also facilitated the right of the Jewish people to citizenship.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 4, 2017)

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Indeed, citizenship. Not a Jewish state.


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## Shusha (Apr 5, 2017)

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Indeed. The right to a Jewish State had already been established. Hence the citizenship order including provisions for it.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 5, 2017)

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I think you are mistaken.


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## Humanity (Apr 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


> In the USA native Americans were driven off 99% of their land and herded into so-called "reservations", where they were subjected to some of the worst poverty and horrible living conditions in the country.



That is NOT genocide!


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## montelatici (Apr 5, 2017)

Humanity said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > In the USA native Americans were driven off 99% of their land and herded into so-called "reservations", where they were subjected to some of the worst poverty and horrible living conditions in the country.
> ...



No, that is the ethnic cleansing, which also occurred. I suggest you have a look at the American Indian Genocide Museum website, the museum is based here in the U.S. It will open your eyes to the genocide.

American Indian Genocide Museum


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## Humanity (Apr 5, 2017)

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Great title for a website... That RARELY mentions the word "genocide" that, on it's home page, could find not one mention!

" It is a memorial to the victims of ethnic cleansing." - Mission Statement

"Racism, discrimination and injustice will be addressed with the purpose of promoting public awareness that these elements of genocide which existed in the past, continue to exist today." - Mission Statement

Now, hang on... "elements of genocide" ??


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## montelatici (Apr 5, 2017)

Are you seriously denying that the Native Americans were not victims of genocide?  Do you understand the definition of genocide? How can you possibly deny it.  You are like a Holocaust denier.


*"Article II:  In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:*

*(a) Killing members of the group; 
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.*


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## Humanity (Apr 6, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Are you seriously denying that the Native Americans were not victims of genocide?  Do you understand the definition of genocide? How can you possibly deny it.  You are like a Holocaust denier.
> 
> 
> *"Article II:  In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:*
> ...



Hahaha "You are like a Holocaust denier.".... Nice one...

I don't see anywhere in my post that I denied anything!

Simply looking at YOUR link and struggling to find any reference to "genocide" other than in the title of the website!

In their mission statement, as already mentioned, they say their website is " It is a memorial to the victims of *ethnic cleansing*." Why did they not use the term... 'victims of genocide'?


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Are you seriously denying that the Native Americans were not victims of genocide?  Do you understand the definition of genocide? How can you possibly deny it.  You are like a Holocaust denier.
> 
> 
> *"Article II:  In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:*
> ...



*The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).*


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 6, 2017)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Are you seriously denying that the Native Americans were not victims of genocide?  Do you understand the definition of genocide? How can you possibly deny it.  You are like a Holocaust denier.
> ...


When are you going to start posting the new one?


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## Humanity (Apr 6, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I guess when there IS a new one?


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



A shiny new Islamic terrorist mission statement that changes nothing?

When are you going to stop flailing your Pom Poms for Islamic terrorist Death Cultists?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 6, 2017)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Oooo, terrorists.

Why do you shovel Israeli shit?


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Indeed, flailing your Pom Poms.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 6, 2017)

Humanity said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


The Islamic resistance movement Hamas (IRMH)

The Political Charter

Thank Allah, the god of people, our prayers and peace be upon our Prophet Mohammed the master of missionaries and the imam of the mujahideen, and peace to his family and partners, all of them.

The IRMH published since its establishment, and during its jihad journey, considering it one of the items of the Palestinian national movements, different charters clarifying their point of view and their political vision.

And in this charter, the movement shows its principals and destinations in which it depends on to build its vision, its speech and to determine its behavior and political performance.

The definition of the movement:


The IRMH is a liberation, Islamic and Palestinian national resistance movement. It aims to liberate Palestine and to fight against the Zionist Project, its reference is Islam in its principles and goals.
Palestine’s Land:


Palestine, with its historical known borders from Jordan’s river in the east to the mediterranean sea in the west, from Ras Al Nakora in the north to Om Al Rashrash in the south, this land is Palestinian and a united regional unit. Displacing Palestinians and creating a Zionist entity does not cancel the right of Palestinians to their entire land, and does not validate the Zionist entity to violate this land.

Palestine is an Arab and Islamic land, it is holy and blessed and it has a special place in the heart of all Arabs and Muslims.
Palestine’s People:


The Palestinians are the Arab citizens who lived in Palestine before 1947. Anyone who was displaced or stayed in Palestine, anyone who was born from an Arab Palestinian father after 1947, inside or outside the country is Palestinian.

The Palestinian personality is an original quality, does not disappear, and it is transmitted from a father to children. The displacement that happened to Palestinians from the Zionist occupation does not make them lose their personality and belonging, as well as, having another nationality does not make them lose their identification or national rights.

Palestinians make up one nation, with all Palestinians inside the country and abroad, and with all its items religious, cultural or political.
Islam and Palestine:


Palestine is in the center of the Islamic and Arab world and it retains a special importance. In Palestine is the al-Aqsa Mosque, which Allah blesses, and it is the holy land that god blesses as well. It is the first destinations for Muslims, and Prophet Mohammed’s place where he started his journey to the sky and heaven and the Nativity of Jesus. It is the land of thousands and thousand of all prophets and messenger who passed in history and it is the land of the people who have the right to stay until Allah finishes this existence.

Hamas understands Islam in all its details, and it is appropriate for all places and times in its neutral spirituality, and Hamas believes that it is the religion of peace and forgiveness, and under its shadow all different religious followers live safe and in safety. As well as it believes that Palestine was and will stay as an example of coexistence, forgiveness and civilian innovation.

Hamas believes that the message of Islam came with morals of justice, truth, dignity and freedom, and is against injustice in all its shapes, and criminalizes the criminals whatever their sex, color, religion or nationality are. Islam is against all shapes of religious extremism, sectarian extremism and ethnic extremism, and it is the religion that teaches its followers to fight against the tyranny and help weak people and it teaches its followers to sacrifice their time, money and themselves in the defense of their dignity, land, people and holy places.
Jerusalem:


Jerusalem city is the capital of Palestine, it has its religious, historical and civilian place in an Arab, Islamic and human way, and all its Islamic and Christian holy places headed by Al Aqsa mosque is a non-negotiable right for Palestine, Arab and the Islamic nations. We do not surrender it or give any part of it, and all the occupation’s procedures in Jerusalem such as Judaization, settlement of the city as well as the forgery of the truth, are illegal.
Refugees and the Right of Return:


The Palestinian cause is basically a cause of an occupied land and displaced people, and the right of return for all Palestinians who were displaced from the 1948 or 1967 lands, which means from the whole of Palestine. Palestinians have the natural right to go back to their land, which is a personal and general right for all Palestinians. Confirming this right is all the religions, human rights and international law, and it is non-negotiable for anyone, whether Palestinian, Arab or foreign.

Hamas refuses all projects that aim to destroy the refugees’ cause, including all attempts to naturalize them as citizens in other countries and alternative home projects. Hamas considers the compensation for Palestinians after displacing them and occupying their land as an essential right, established after their return, and it does not cancel or reduce their [physical] right of return. 
The Zionist Project:


The Zionist Project is a racist, aggressive and separatist project based on violating others’ rights and is against Palestine’s people and its vision for freedom, liberation, sovereignty and the return of the refugees. And the Israeli state is the tool of this project and its foundation.

The Zionist Project does not just attack the Palestinian people, it attacks the Arab and Islamic nations as well, and it establishes a real danger and gravelly threatens its security and interest. At the same time, the project is against the future of the union, development and liberation of that nation. The Zionist Project threatens international peace and security, as well as the interests of humanity and stabilization.

Hamas differentiates between Jews as people of the holy book, and Judaism as a religion and the occupation and the Zionist Project as something separate, and it sees that the conflict is with the Zionist Project not with the Jewish people because of their religion. And Hamas does not have a conflict with the Jews because they are Jews, but Hamas has a conflict with the Zionists, occupiers and aggressors, and will fight anyone who tries to attack the Palestinian people or occupy their land whatever their religion, nationality or identity may be.

Hamas refuses the persecution of any human being or violation of any human right because of religion, ethnicity, sector or nationality. Hamas sees that the Jewish problem and the “anti-semitism” and the injustice against the Jewish people is a phenomenon related to European history, not to the history of Arabs and Muslims or their heritage. The basic cause of the formation of the Zionist movement was the phenomenon of anti-semitism. The Zionist movement was able to occupy Palestine with the help of the western colony, and this movement is the most dangerous model of settler occupation, which was removed whole world and should be removed from Palestine.
The Position on the Occupation and the Political Arrangement:


The Balfour Declaration and the British mandate convention on Palestine is illegal, and the UN decision for Palestine’s division, and all its consequences and other conventions similar to it and the creation of Israel was illegal from the beginning, and it is against the Palestinian’s rights, its determination, human rights, international law and the right of sovereignty.

We do not recognize the Zionist state. All shapes of occupation, settlements, Judaization and the forgery of truth are illegal. These rights do not dissolve with time.

We do not leave any part of the Palestinian’s land, under any circumstances, conditions or pressure, as long as the occupation remains. Hamas refuses any alternative which is not the whole liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. And the creation of the Palestinian independent state with its sovereignty, with Jerusalem as its capital, on the borders of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees to their homes from where they were displaced is a common national consensual formula, and it does not mean the recognition of the Zionist state or the surrendering of Palestinian rights.

Hamas refuses all conventions or initiatives and any projects that aim to destroy the Palestinian cause or take away the rights of the Palestinian people.

Hamas confirms that no peace in Palestine should be agreed on, based on injustice to the Palestinians or their land. Any arrangements based on that will not lead to peace, and the resistance and Jihad will remain as a legal right, a project and an honor for all our nations’ people.
The Resistance and the Liberation:


The liberation of Palestine is the Palestinians’ duty in the first place, and the Arab and Islamic nation’s duty in general, and it is a human responsibility according to human justice and rights. And all the organizations and institutes such as: Palestinian, Arab, Islamic or human are all integrated organizations with no problems or disharmony.

The resistance against the occupation, with all different tool or instruments, is a legal right legalized by religious, traditional or international law, and especially the armed resistance that is the strategic option to protect our principles and get back our rights.
Hamas refuses to hinder the resistance or its weapons, and confirms the right of our people to develop resistance tools and equipments. Hamas confirms that the resistance leadership can decide the level of resistance and can utilize a variety of the different tools and way to administrate the conflict, without compromising the resistance.
The Political System:


The real state is the fruit of the liberation, and there is no alternative to the creation of the Palestinian state, with its sovereignty on the entire Palestinian land with Jerusalem as its capital.

Hamas believes in administering of the Palestinian relations under the belief of pluralism, democracy, bilateral conversations and partnerships, which makes stronger the union of the Palestinian line to achieve our national goals and the aspirations of our people.
The PLO is a national diagram for Palestinian people inside the country and abroad, which we should keep, with the importance of its development and reconstruction on a democratic basis, including the participation of all the parts and organizations of the Palestinian people, which conserve Palestinian rights.

Hamas confirms the importance of building Palestinian national organizations and references, using a democratic basis, starting with free and fair elections, and on the basis of resistance and national partnership, with a program and a clear strategy, confirming our rights and to achieve the aspirations of our people.

The Hamas movement confirms its total rejection of Oslo’s conventions, its consequences and its results, which made contradictory compromises of the benefits of the Palestinians.

The Hamas movement confirms that the role of the Palestinian Authority must be in the service of the Palestinian people, and its security in order to protect the people’s rights and the national project.

Hamas confirms the importance of the independence of the Palestinian decision, and not to relate it to any external issues, and confirms at the same time, the responsibility of Arabs and Muslims and their duty to liberate Palestine from the Zionist occupation.

The different parts of the Palestinian community: personalities, idols and civilian social institutes, the youth, students, women and workers unions, who work to achieve the national goals, are an important resource for the social construction and for the resistance and liberation project.

The role of the Palestinian woman is a basis for the construction of today and the future, as it was always in the making of Palestinian history, and it is a central role in the resistance, liberation project and the construction of the political system.
The Arab and Islamic Nation:


Hamas believes in the union of the nation with all its items such as religious, ethnic and sectarian, and it sees the importance in avoiding anything which may destroy this union.

Hamas believes that the Palestinian cause is the central cause for the Arab and Islamic nation.

Hamas believes in cooperation with all the countries that support the Palestinian people’s rights, and refuses to be involved the internal issues of other countries, or their conflicts and problems. Hamas adopts the policy of opening relations with different countries of the world, especially Arab and Islamic nations, and it aims to build stable relations, which aim to unify the needs of the Palestinian cause, the interests of the Palestinian people and the interest, development and security of the nation.
The Human and International Side:


The Palestinian cause is a cause with an international and human dimension, and it is a civilian and human mission to be in solidarity and to support it, which reflects human morals, justice and equality.

The liberation of Palestine from a legal and human regard is a project that encompasses the needs of self-defense, and it is the natural right of the people to achieve sovereignty.

Hamas believes in the morals of cooperation, justice, freedom, respect and people’s determination in its relations with the world’s countries and people.

Hamas welcomes the positions of the commissions and countries that recognize the rights of Palestinian people, and condemns any side or organizations that support the Zionist state, or help in covering their crimes and aggressions against the Palestinians.

Hamas refuses any attempts of dominance over Arab and Islamic nations, as well as any attempts of dominance over other nations and people of the world, and condemns any type of colonization, occupation, injustice and aggression in the world.
- See more at: Read the full translated text of the leaked Hamas charter


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Why are spamming this thread with that nonsense?


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## Shusha (Apr 6, 2017)

P F Tinmore 

Out of curiosity, do you support the ideals in the Hamas Charter?


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you support the ideals in the Hamas Charter?


That's a rhetorical question, right?


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## Shusha (Apr 6, 2017)

One of the interesting things about the "new" charter is that the change of language doesn't represent any actual change in belief.  Sure, they ditched "Jew" and replaced it with "Zionist", but there doesn't seem to be anything at all to distinguish the two and therefore no meaningful change in the document.  

This seems particularly apparent with the resistance to "Judaization".  While on the one hand, claiming to have no problem with Jews, per se, they resist Judaization.  In other words, they resist the presence of Jews.  

How is this a change from the old charter?  Oh wait, its not.  Its a pretty language upgrade to something the world finds more palatable.  Candy-coated rotten fruit is still rotten fruit.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 7, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you support the ideals in the Hamas Charter?


Are there any particular sections that you take issue with?


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## teddyearp (Apr 7, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore
> ...


Hahaha, typical Tinmore.  Give it up Shusha all Timnore ever does is fuck with you.


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## Shusha (Apr 7, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore
> ...



Well, *I* take issue with nearly all of it.  (See post #389 for an example).  

My question was whether or not any of it was problematic for you.


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## Shusha (Apr 7, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Hahaha, typical Tinmore.  Give it up Shusha all Timnore ever does is fuck with you.



On the contrary, I delight in illuminating his hypocrisy.


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## Shusha (Apr 7, 2017)

P F Tinmore 

Do you have any thoughts on this:


_The Palestinian personality is an original quality, does not disappear, and it is transmitted from a father to children. The displacement that happened to Palestinians from the Zionist occupation does not make them lose their personality and belonging, as well as, having another nationality does not make them lose their identification or national rights._

_Palestinians make up one nation, with all Palestinians inside the country and abroad, and with all its items religious, cultural or political._


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 7, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore
> 
> Do you have any thoughts on this:
> 
> ...


OK, what is your problem?


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## Hollie (Apr 7, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore
> ...



You have entered *The Tinmore Vortex™*


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 7, 2017)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I don't have a problem with that particular passage.


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## Shusha (Apr 7, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore
> ...



No problem.  I think it is a beautifully worded expression of national unity.  It reminds us that the qualities which make up a national unity are not based on maintaining actual political, military or physical control over a territory in the face of conquering or invading peoples, but is based on an essential and original personality and belonging.  It reminds us that religious, cultural and historical items are what binds together a national unity -- not physical location.  It reminds us that ALL peoples belonging to a peoples make up ONE nation, whether inside the country or abroad.  

In fact, it works so nicely, I think Israel should adopt it.  

_The Jewish personality is an original quality, does not disappear, and it is transmitted from parent to child.  The displacement that happened to the Jewish people from the Roman and Arab occupations does not make them lose their personality and belonging, as well as, having another nationality does not make them lose their identification or national rights.  

The Jewish people make up one nation, with all Jews inside the country and abroad, and with all its items religious, cultural or political.  _


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## Shusha (Apr 7, 2017)

P F Tinmore 

Don't forget a response to #389 -- specifically to the difference between "we don't mind Jews, as long as they don't Judaize the place".  Or "we don't mind Arabs, as long as they don't Arabize the place".


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## Shusha (Apr 7, 2017)

For example, adding to the above post, has the Temple Mount been "Arabized"?  Has Jerusalem been "Arabized"?

Is this a bad thing?  Why or why not?  What should be done about it?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore
> 
> Don't forget a response to #389 -- specifically to the difference between "we don't mind Jews, as long as they don't Judaize the place".  Or "we don't mind Arabs, as long as they don't Arabize the place".


The Palestinians Arabizing the place???


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## Humanity (Apr 8, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yeah, has this actually been ratified yet? I suspect not!

And, whilst I think this a move in the right direction, it simply doesn't go far enough!

It is too ambiguous and does not 'step down' their aggression toward Israel and Jews... Maybe worse, they have actually, by amending their charter now included everyone, not just Jews!

So, do we have to wait another 29 years for an amendment to this charter?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 8, 2017)

Humanity said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Where do you get aggression against the Jews?

Hamas differentiates between Jews as people of the holy book, and Judaism as a religion and the occupation and the Zionist Project as something separate, and it sees that *the conflict is with the Zionist Project not with the Jewish people because of their religion. And Hamas does not have a conflict with the Jews because they are Jews,* but Hamas has a conflict with the Zionists, occupiers and aggressors, and will fight anyone who tries to attack the Palestinian people or occupy their land whatever their religion, nationality or identity may be.​


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## Hollie (Apr 8, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Such phony propaganda. 

Hamas is emblematic of Islamist ideology and its virulent Jew hatreds. 

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. *Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps*. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.


You can out all the lipstick you want on your pig, but it's still a pig.,


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## Shusha (Apr 8, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore
> ...



I'm asking you what you think Hamas MEANS when they say they don't mind Jews are long as they don't Judaize.  What does it mean to "Judaize" a place?  A place like the Temple Mount or Jerusalem.  How will you know when a place has been successfully Judaized?  How would you measure such a thing?

You can contrast this, if you like, to Arabization. Has the Temple Mount, for example, been Arabized?  

The Temple Mount is a microcosm of the Arab Muslim end game for all of Palestine.  There, the Arab Muslim Palestinians will tolerate Jews as long as the place is not Judaized -- meaning as long as Jewish presence is limited; as long as Jewish presence and practice is invisible; as long as Jews have fewer and lesser rights; as long as Jews are kept separated; as long as Jews are denied their history, their faith, their "personality" and their national aspirations.  


THIS is what Hamas is championing in their *cough cough* new and improved charter.  Humanity correctly calls this an improvement, but is also correct that the improvement is so slight as to be dismissed as nothing more than a clothing change.  

There can be no peace where one side demands the negation of the other as a condition.  That is the ESSENCE of genocide -- to negate the other.


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## Shusha (Apr 8, 2017)

What, P F Tinmore , no response?

Do you think I am correct in what Hamas intends?  Or do you think I am wrong?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> What, P F Tinmore , no response?
> 
> Do you think I am correct in what Hamas intends?  Or do you think I am wrong?


Could you cut all the crap and summarize your point?


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## Hollie (Apr 8, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What, P F Tinmore , no response?
> ...



The event horizon of_* The Tinmore Vortex™*_


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## jillian (Apr 8, 2017)

bluemoon22 said:


> Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference?
> 
> I found this poll and blog to be an excellent question with some great videos. People go to jail in Germany if they deny the Holocaust, but and in typical Racist fashion the Zionists would like to punish Palestinians for remembering and telling the world it happened.



palitinian terrorist supporters are such lying scum.


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## Shusha (Apr 8, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Could you cut all the crap and summarize your point?



I've made, what?, FIVE or SIX reasoned, explicit, detailed, specific posts on my point.  So I'm left to decide if you are incapable of answering or unwilling to answer.  You don't seem especially lacking in intelligence.

But I'll simplify it even further for you, if you insist.  And I'll speak slowly.  

What.  does.  Judaization.  mean.  in.  the.  Hamas.  charter?


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## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore
> ...


Again, typical Tinmore style. Answer your question with a question attempting to draw you into his pretzel.


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## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Could you cut all the crap and summarize your point?
> ...


10. 9. 8. 7.

6. 5. 4.

3. 2, he'll only answer with another question.


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## teddyearp (Apr 8, 2017)

I see many problems here:



P F Tinmore said:


> The Islamic resistance movement Hamas (IRMH)
> 
> The Political Charter<snip>
> 
> ...


So, basically, we see that Tinmore's only 'path to peace' is the elimination of the State of Israel which has now existed for over 70 years while at the same time totally denying the historical attachment to the land by the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites.  Ludicrous!  Keep trying to unscramble eggs, bud.



P F Tinmore said:


> Jerusalem:
> 
> 
> Jerusalem city is the capital of Palestine, it has its religious, historical and civilian place in an Arab, Islamic and human way, and all its Islamic and Christian holy places headed by Al Aqsa mosque is a non-negotiable right for Palestine, Arab and the Islamic nations. We do not surrender it or give any part of it, and all the occupation’s procedures in Jerusalem such as Judaization, settlement of the city as well as the forgery of the truth, are illegal.


More typical electronicintefada propaganda, denying again any connection to Jerusalem by the Jews/Hebrews/Israelite's.

The only peaceful solution that Tinmore sees is the total elimination of the Jews.  Sounds familiar, doesn't it?


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## Humanity (Apr 9, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



"Hamas has a conflict with the Zionists, occupiers and aggressors"

Some Jews are Zionist but not exclusively...

Some Jews are occupiers, but not exclusively...

So, Hamas has a conflict with "Zionists" and "Occupiers".....

See a pattern emerging?

However, because "zionists" and "occupiers" are not exclusively Jews then Hamas have just declared conflict with everyone!

If Hamas were a little smarter they would have gone a while lot further and 'forced' the hand of the Israeli government into agreeing some sensible peace talks...

So, if, as you are trying to indicate, that Hamas is no longer in conflict with Jews, will they now stop firing rockets into Israel?


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## louie888 (Apr 19, 2017)

Wow, so much off topic silliness.

Here is the difference in real terms:


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 19, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Could you cut all the crap and summarize your point?
> ...


The allegation of following a policy for the Judaization of Jerusalem by the Government of Israel is subject of debate. According to Valerie Zink, Israel has sought to transform the physical and demographic landscape of Jerusalem to correspond with the Zionist vision of a united and fundamentally Jewish Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty since 1948. [30] Zink writes that much was accomplished towards the Judaization of Jerusalem with the expulsion of Arab residents in 1948 and 1967, noting that the process has also relied in "peacetime" on "the strategic extension of Jerusalem's municipal boundaries, bureaucratic and legal restrictions on Palestinian land use, disenfranchisement of Jerusalem residents, the expansion of settlements in 'Greater Jerusalem', and the construction of the separation wall."[30] The attempts to Judaize Jerusalem, in the words of Jeremy Salt, "to obliterate its Palestinian identity" and thicken 'Greater Jerusalem' to encompass much of the West Bank, have continued under successive Israeli governments.[31][32]

Judaization of Jerusalem - Wikipedia


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 19, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> The only peaceful solution that Tinmore sees is the total elimination of the Jews.


Links?


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## louie888 (Apr 21, 2017)

*LONDON –  Holocaust denial just got a little harder.


The Wiener Library for the Study of Holocaust & Genocide is making the United Nations' files on World War II war crimes more accessible by allowing the general public to search an online catalog of the documents for the first time beginning Friday. People will still have to visit the library in London or the U.S. Holocaust Museum to read the actual files....*

Library to release catalog on World War II era documents

I can't help but wonder if they will include the pictures of the Auschwitz swimming pool, the library, the post office, the currency, the football (soccer) field, the hospital, the greenhouse, and all the other amenities the nazis provided for those whom they were exterminating.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > The only peaceful solution that Tinmore sees is the total elimination of the Jews.
> ...



Well, of Israel really.  Which is more than a third of all Jews in the world.


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## montelatici (Apr 21, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> I see many problems here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have to admit, that's the first time that an opponent on a forum has celebrated me in his signature.  Thanks Teddy, you finally get it.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 21, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...


Nice duck.


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## emilynghiem (Apr 22, 2017)

Dear louie888 
From what I understand, the camps were used to get as much labor out of the captives to process their own materials , much like corporate raiders will bleed out all assets out of a hostile company takeover before crashing it afterwards

The 6 million killed has been clarified as closer to 4 million Jews and 2 million mixed people of Catholic Gypsy and other "undesirables" thrown in for elimination.

The abuse and experimentation / torture done to captives has been documented and reported by witnesses/survivors. If you don't believe all the propaganda, at least check with credible sources . I know good friends of PETER LOTH who attest he is an honest man trying to use his experiences to teach others the healing power of forgiveness after he was abused before and after being in concentration camp where he was physically subjected to painful torture .

Because he is a forgiving man his message comes out differently , so you might see more truth and honesty about the human side of the people who did this who weren't mobsters but people like you and me running the camps.





louie888 said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


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## louie888 (Apr 22, 2017)

Thank-you, emily for that logical and thoughtful post. That is rare here with these difficult topics and these nonstop trolls. I am pretty much in agreement with what you posted. Just a few points for clarification...



emilynghiem said:


> Dear louie888
> From what I understand, the camps were used to get as much labor out of the captives to process their own materials , much like corporate raiders will bleed out all assets out of a hostile company takeover before crashing it afterwards


Yes, labor camps are fact. Everyone agrees here.



emilynghiem said:


> The 6 million killed has been clarified as closer to 4 million Jews and 2 million mixed people of Catholic Gypsy and other "undesirables" thrown in for elimination.


If by elimination you mean death, I have yet to see evidence of that.



emilynghiem said:


> The abuse and experimentation / torture done to captives has been documented and reported by witnesses/survivors. If you don't believe all the propaganda, at least check with credible sources . I know good friends of PETER LOTH who attest he is an honest man trying to use his experiences to teach others the healing power of forgiveness after he was abused before and after being in concentration camp where he was physically subjected to painful torture .


I have checked credible sources, please, and all of the above can certainly be verified.



emilynghiem said:


> Because he is a forgiving man his message comes out differently , so you might see more truth and honesty about the human side of the people who did this who weren't mobsters but people like you and me running the camps.


This is why it sickens me to see these show trials of some 90 year old German man who was a guard at Auschwitz for example.

After all is said and done, this whole thing boils down to 3 basic aspects of the official narrative.

1) The cabalistic 6 million figure is ridiculous for many reasons and even the 4 million figure you suggested far exceeds the numbers the Red Cross put out. Beyond that, for decades prior to WWII, the Jewish press was crying about 6 million Jews and a holocaust and beyond that, this is not the first holocaust that Jews have lied about outright.

2) There is no credible evidence for the idea that millions were being marched off to gas chambers. The gassing stories of the official narrative are impossible based on their own story. If I could be so bold, what appears to have happened is that at soem time AFTER THE WAR, delousing chambers which were obviously there to keep Jews alive got turned into homicidal gas chambers and when enough well respected historians and then people in general started pointing this out, the Jews pushed for these so called holocaust denial laws as a means to silence historians and to keep their lies alive.

3) No extermination plan was ever found. We have Plan Dalet which was the zionists plan to exterminate the Palestinians, but nothing like that from the nazis. Somehow, like above, after the war, the "final solution" turned from one of deportation to one of extermination.


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## emilynghiem (Apr 23, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Thank-you, emily for that logical and thoughtful post. That is rare here with these difficult topics and these nonstop trolls. I am pretty much in agreement with what you posted. Just a few points for clarification...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear louie888 
I'm grateful we have free speech here to discuss what has been documented or not. I am dismayed that such right to question would be criminalized, especially when that backfires and makes the matter seem even more suspect!

In general I thought there were records of mass graves found, and photos of piles of corpses. I understand the records of property confiscated from Jewish families , where the wealth was seized and redistributed in conjunction with Peron in Argentina was pretty much established, though the amount of research it would take to track and return restitution back to the family estates is unsurmountably daunting.

You are right that nobody kept records of all the population back in WWII like we do now. We don't know the exact names and numbers of all soldiers lost in the war or MIA. And same with all the Jewish people and families who disappeared, either to hide in safety or taken to camps and then who knows what the actual numbers are. We don't know the full extent and population in Japan affected by the atomic bombings. 

We can only estimate.
Maybe if we agreed to undertake all the research to identify owning families whose wealth and property was confiscated and redistributed , that might serve as a means to support exact research to determine the numbers affected, whether they fled to safety or were killed or missing

I don't think the Jewish would object to research serving both purposes.


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## louie888 (Apr 23, 2017)

emilynghiem said:


> Dear louie888
> I'm grateful we have free speech here to discuss what has been documented or not. I am dismayed that such right to question would be criminalized, especially when that backfires and makes the matter seem even more suspect!


I would say beyond suspect.



emilynghiem said:


> In general I thought there were records of mass graves found, and photos of piles of corpses. I understand the records of property confiscated from Jewish families...


All true, of course. Here is the problem. No sane person ever denies any of that. Anyone who claims that there were no mass graves or piles of corpses are just as much liars as the story tellers who gave us the official narrative. To be clear, anyone who denies that is either crazy or a paid shill poisoning the well.



emilynghiem said:


> You are right that nobody kept records of all the population back in WWII like we do now. We don't know the exact names and numbers of all soldiers lost in the war or MIA. And same with all the Jewish people and families who disappeared, either to hide in safety or taken to camps and then who knows what the actual numbers are. We don't know the full extent and population in Japan affected by the atomic bombings.
> 
> We can only estimate.


I never said nobody kept records (someone else here perhaps?) and we have a reasonably good idea in this area from multiple sources.




emilynghiem said:


> Maybe if we agreed to undertake all the research to identify owning families whose wealth and property was confiscated and redistributed , that might serve as a means to support exact research to determine the numbers affected, whether they fled to safety or were killed or missing


I dunno what this has to do with the topic as again, no sane person is arguing that the Jew's wealth and property was not confiscated.



emilynghiem said:


> I don't think the Jewish would object to research serving both purposes.


They object to any digging were the supposed mass graves were in Treblinka, yet let their paid "archeologist" shill go there and pretend to dig there when she was actually digging in a well marked Christian cemetery across the way and outside the walls of the camp/train station.

We here from these shills here evry day about their perceived "Palestinian mentality." Well, there is Jewish mentality for you.

If you want answers, go to Treblinka and bring a shovel. The Jews will say that Jews don't dig up graves and it is disrespectful to the dead, but it happens more than you would think. This is just an excuse to NOT get answers. And again... BEYOND suspect.


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## abu afak (Apr 23, 2017)

louie888 to Wrongheaded Bimbo Emilynghiem who just makes stuff up said:
			
		

> ..
> *If by elimination you mean death, I have yet to see evidence of that.*...
> After all is said and done, this whole thing boils down to 3 basic aspects of the official narrative.
> 1) *The cabalistic 6 million figure is ridiculous for many reasons and even the 4 million figure* you suggested far exceeds the numbers the Red Cross put out. ...
> ...


1. You're just a run of the mill antisemite. No Orthodox Jew anti-zionist would post uncontexted Talmud quotes.

2. Neither you nor Confused Bimbo Emilyngslime has posted any LINKS? for your claims.
Here IS "credible LINKED evidence" from me: It's NOT "6 million  total and 4 million Jews," Emily, it's 17 million Total, and 6 million Jews.

2006
Fifty Million Nazi Documents: Germany Agrees to Open Holocaust Archive - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

For years, the United States, France, Poland and a number of other countries have been trying to convince Germany to consent to the opening of the so-called "Holocaust Archives" stored in the north-central German town of Bad Arolsen.
Citing privacy concerns and fears of lawsuits, however, the German government had consistently refused. The 30 to 50 million documents -- compiled by the Nazis during World War II and outlining the *personal fates of 17 million Holocaust and forced labor victims* -- remained off limits to scholars and historians.
But on Tuesday, Germany changed its mind...


Revisiting The Horrors Of The Holocaust - 60 Minutes - CBS News
[....]
"The storerooms are immense: *16 miles of shelves holding the stories of 17 million victims* – not only Jews, but slave laborers, political prisoners and homosexuals. To open the files is to see the Holocaust staring back like it was yesterday: strange pink Gestapo arrest warrants as lethal as a death sentence, jewelry lost as freedom ended at the gates of an extermination camp. Time stopped here in 1945."
[.......]
".But most of the names here are of unknown people. While the Nazis did not write down the names of those executed in the gas chambers at places like Auschwitz, *they did keep detailed records of millions of others who died in the camps. 
Their names are listed in notebooks labeled “Totenbuch,” which means “death book.”* The names are written here, single-spaced, in meticulous handwriting.

"Here we see the cause of death: executed. And you can see, every two minutes they shot one prisoner," Jost explains. *"So they shot a prisoner every two minutes for a little over an hour and a half?" Pelley asks. "Yes. Now look at the date: it’s the 20th of April. That was Adolf Hitler’s birthday. And this was a birthday present, a gift for the Führer. That’s the bureaucracy of the devil," Jost says.*

The devil is in the details - the smallest details. Pelley and the 60 Minutes crew were amazed to see the Nazis kept records of head lice. "You can see the Names and Numbers of each prisoner, and the amount of lice that were found," Jost says..."
[.....]​
3. 'Plan Dalet' doesn't say what you says it does. LINK?

4.* Louie888 didn't/Couldn't answer my last post either:*
Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites
He's just a Stormfront Fraud.
Frau Emily just an enabling ignorant idiot.
`

*EDIT to the immediately Below!
the FRAUD Louie888 Just 100% WHIFFED on my Documented info categorically REFUTING him above. Just a pathetic 2-line Excuse!
Louie888 is POS antisemite FRAUD with NO Facts.*


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## louie888 (Apr 23, 2017)

I don't answer your posts because you are not even on the topic of my posts. And, I have yet to see you respond to the multiple salient points on the threads where you insert yourself.


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## rylah (Apr 24, 2017)

What a surprise ^^ and I actually thought anti-semites had thoughts of their own..
more meme trolling on the way


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## louie888 (Apr 27, 2017)

bluemoon22 said:


> *Al Nakba Denial vs Holocaust Denial, what's the Difference*


*...the exclusion of Zundel was itself not a First Amendment violation. But, based on Ramirez-Rivero — and certainly the office’s description of Ramirez-Rivero — it appears to have been a violation of American immigration law. And in the process of misapplying Ramirez-Rivero, the office seems to have erroneously concluded that Holocaust denial and the expression of anti-Semitic sentiments would be “deemed criminal by United States standards.” That strikes me as mistaken, though I’d be glad to hear any corrections or clarifications from readers who are more knowledgeable about immigration law than I am.*

Opinion | Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel barred from moving to the U.S., though his wife is an American citizen


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## teddyearp (Apr 30, 2017)

Here's your "Nakba":

*“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”*

*— Palestinian Authority (then) Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) (Falastin a-Thaura, (March 1976)*

*In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return” (The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, Beirut, 1973, Part 1, pp. 386-387).*


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## louie888 (Apr 30, 2017)

*Israel’s first president supported a Jewish group’s plans to murder Germans immediately after World War II, according to the man who led the group of avengers. Details of the plan, which included poisoning bread at a bakery, were unveiled by Lithuanian-born Joseph Harmatz, 73, in an interview published last week in the British newspaper the Observer....*
Jewish survivor reveals plan   to murder 6 million Germans


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