# What exactly is the "one state solution"?



## Shusha

We have a thread to discuss solutions to the conflict from the lens of two states.  Many members would prefer a one state solution.  So let's discuss that as well.  

What would a one state solution look like?  How would it preserve both the Jewish and the Arab character of the territory?  Do you envision a system of loosely connected, self-governing provinces with a federal government or just one overall government?  Would parliament be half Jewish/half Arab, or would there be some sort of proportional representation?  How would you protect the minority populations, including some which may be somewhat hostile?  How would you preserve the cultural artifacts of each group, both tangible and non-tangible?  Who gets to pray on the Temple Mount, renovate or build there? Would the Jewish people be able to build a synagogue there?  What would you call the new country?  What would its charter look like?  Will the laws be based on sharia or halakhah or both or neither?  Will immigration be based on jus soli or jus sanguinis?  Who will be eligible?  Will civil matters, such as marriage, be handled by civil courts or by religious institutions?  

Some are going to say, "a secular and democratic state" (I'm looking at you P F Tinmore  and montelatici).  Please be specific.  What does this mean?  This is a great opportunity for you to discuss not only the mistakes you see Israel making -- but provide solutions.  How will the new country handle illegal building?  Or terrorist acts?  Terrorist groups who try to rise up?  How will you handle discrimination?  

How will you convince me that in a hundred years, the state will still be both a Jewish state and also an Arab state?


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## fanger

jewish is a religion Arabian is a race


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## DGS49

The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.

There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.

The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.


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## Shusha

fanger said:


> jewish is a religion Arabian is a race



Not helping.  I'll tell you what, for the sake of this thread -- which is to discuss solutions -- let's come up with two words for the Jewish people in terms of ethnicity/religion, like we have for the Arab Palestinian Muslims.  I'd suggest Jewish Torahides. 

Use the word "Jews" or "Jewish" for the ethnicity.  And "Torahides" for the faith.


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## TheOldSchool

I assume the one state solution is Israel quitting pretending and going off to conquer the remaining Palestinian land and expelling or killing the current inhabitants.


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## louie888

Shusha said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> 
> jewish is a religion Arabian is a race
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not helping.  I'll tell you what, for the sake of this thread -- which is to discuss solutions -- let's come up with two words for the Jewish people in terms of ethnicity/religion, like we have for the Arab Palestinian Muslims.  I'd suggest Jewish Torahides.
> 
> Use the word "Jews" or "Jewish" for the ethnicity.  And "Torahides" for the faith.
Click to expand...

Stop redefining words to meet your needs. You try that on every thread. Jews are Jews. Judaism is a religion.

The one state solution is the solution proposed from our traditional rabbis (who are Jewish).

You pretend you are so well read. If you were, then you would know this and there would be no need for this thread of for anyone to take the time to explain it to you.

Do your own research and check back. If you have fair questions at that point, then I will help you out the best that I can.


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## Toddsterpatriot

TheOldSchool said:


> I assume the one state solution is Israel quitting pretending and going off to conquer the remaining Palestinian land and expelling or killing the current inhabitants.



Ship them to Syria. I hear there's room, and very few pesky Jews.
Win-Win!


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## Indeependent

We design an App to kill violent Arabs.
Oh wait, they already have homicide vests.


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## TheOldSchool

Toddsterpatriot said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume the one state solution is Israel quitting pretending and going off to conquer the remaining Palestinian land and expelling or killing the current inhabitants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ship them to Syria. I hear there's room, and very few pesky Jews.
> Win-Win!
Click to expand...

Yeah maybe carve out some land in Syria and declare it to be for Palestinians and only Palestinians.  I'm sure the Syrians will love that and it won't lead to decades of war.  The past has proven so.


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## Toddsterpatriot

TheOldSchool said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume the one state solution is Israel quitting pretending and going off to conquer the remaining Palestinian land and expelling or killing the current inhabitants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ship them to Syria. I hear there's room, and very few pesky Jews.
> Win-Win!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah maybe carve out some land in Syria and declare it to be for Palestinians and only Palestinians.  I'm sure the Syrians will love that and it won't lead to decades of war.  The past has proven so.
Click to expand...


Syrians fighting "Palestinians"?
Sounds like a plan!!!

17 million Syrians, 2.7 million "Palestinians" in the West Bank, another 1.7 million in Gaza.
To be fair, give the Pallies 20% of Syria. Peace at last!!!


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## GHook93

One state solution = all of current Israel, all of Jerusalem, all of Samaria and Judea and none of Gaza, with 95% of the Arabs deported to Gaza and Jordan!


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


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## Toddsterpatriot

GHook93 said:


> One state solution = all of current Israel, all of Jerusalem, all of Samaria and Judea and none of Gaza, with 95% of the Arabs deported to Gaza and Jordan!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com



Nah, we like Jordan. Deport them to Syria.


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## P F Tinmore

DGS49 said:


> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.


Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."

How To "Free Palestine"


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## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
Click to expand...


Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid. 

Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.


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## louie888

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
Click to expand...

See? I was 100% right again! You just post the same thing on every thread. You don't read the title. You don't follow the conversation. You don't even know which thread you are on.

This is the one about the one state solution and I posted already that this idea comes from our traditional rabbis. Are you familiar at all with THIS topic?


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## Hollie

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See? I was 100% right again! You just post the same thing on every thread. You don't read the title. You don't follow the conversation. You don't even know which thread you are on.
> 
> This is the one about the one state solution and I posted already that this idea comes from our traditional rabbis. Are you familiar at all with THIS topic?
Click to expand...


You're such a cartoon.


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## Weatherman2020

Thanks to Obama and Assad, there is a lot of available housing in Syria to relocate the Gaza strip riffraff.


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## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
Click to expand...

You didn't look at my link.

How To "Free Palestine"


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## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
Click to expand...


Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.

Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.


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## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
Click to expand...


How to Free Palestine...
[1] Give a fuck
[2] *Nobody* gives a fuck
[3] Plan Fail


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## louie888

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
Click to expand...

I was 100% right again! 

You just post the same thing on every thread. You don't read the title. You don't follow the conversation. You don't even know which thread you are on.

This is the one about the one state solution and I posted already that this idea comes from our traditional rabbis. Are you familiar at all with THIS topic?


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## Hollie

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was 100% right again!
> 
> You just post the same thing on every thread. You don't read the title. You don't follow the conversation. You don't even know which thread you are on.
> 
> This is the one about the one state solution and I posted already that this idea comes from our traditional rabbis. Are you familiar at all with THIS topic?
Click to expand...


Could you cut and paste this again from post 15? There's a good fellow.


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## Indeependent

louie888 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was 100% right again!
> 
> You just post the same thing on every thread. You don't read the title. You don't follow the conversation. You don't even know which thread you are on.
> 
> This is the one about the one state solution and I posted already that this idea comes from our traditional rabbis. Are you familiar at all with THIS topic?
Click to expand...

Traditional Rabbis?  You are high *and* stupid.


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## Hollie

Indeependent said:


> louie888 said:
> 
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> Hollie said:
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> 
> 
> 
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> P F Tinmore said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was 100% right again!
> 
> You just post the same thing on every thread. You don't read the title. You don't follow the conversation. You don't even know which thread you are on.
> 
> This is the one about the one state solution and I posted already that this idea comes from our traditional rabbis. Are you familiar at all with THIS topic?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Traditional Rabbis?  Are you high or stupid?
Click to expand...


I wouldn't have included the conjunction "or". But that's just me.


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## Indeependent

Hollie said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was 100% right again!
> 
> You just post the same thing on every thread. You don't read the title. You don't follow the conversation. You don't even know which thread you are on.
> 
> This is the one about the one state solution and I posted already that this idea comes from our traditional rabbis. Are you familiar at all with THIS topic?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could you cut and paste this again from post 15? There's a good fellow.
Click to expand...

Loser88 is *insane*; and I'm *not* being sarcastic.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
Click to expand...

And you always rattle on about crap in spite of the evidence.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And you always rattle on about crap in spite of the evidence.
Click to expand...

You consider revisionist history to be evidence?
I don't blame you for not wanting to see the animals your people are.


----------



## aris2chat

Shusha said:


> We have a thread to discuss solutions to the conflict from the lens of two states.  Many members would prefer a one state solution.  So let's discuss that as well.
> 
> What would a one state solution look like?  How would it preserve both the Jewish and the Arab character of the territory?  Do you envision a system of loosely connected, self-governing provinces with a federal government or just one overall government?  Would parliament be half Jewish/half Arab, or would there be some sort of proportional representation?  How would you protect the minority populations, including some which may be somewhat hostile?  How would you preserve the cultural artifacts of each group, both tangible and non-tangible?  Who gets to pray on the Temple Mount, renovate or build there? Would the Jewish people be able to build a synagogue there?  What would you call the new country?  What would its charter look like?  Will the laws be based on sharia or halakhah or both or neither?  Will immigration be based on jus soli or jus sanguinis?  Who will be eligible?  Will civil matters, such as marriage, be handled by civil courts or by religious institutions?
> 
> Some are going to say, "a secular and democratic state" (I'm looking at you P F Tinmore  and montelatici).  Please be specific.  What does this mean?  This is a great opportunity for you to discuss not only the mistakes you see Israel making -- but provide solutions.  How will the new country handle illegal building?  Or terrorist acts?  Terrorist groups who try to rise up?  How will you handle discrimination?
> 
> How will you convince me that in a hundred years, the state will still be both a Jewish state and also an Arab state?



Palestinians would have to pledge allegiance to the Jewish state of Israel.

Some versions give people and land to jordan and others don't include gaza.

They would be equal in all ways as Israels, living and obaying the laws of the jewish state of israel, not an islamic state of palestine.

Depends on who is presenting the idea, but some have a degree of autonomy for areas in the west bank, under an israeli flag.  A bit like the ottoman gave autonomy to regions in Lebanon and syria.

Mosques everywhere in Israel would have to follow noise limits so mosque are not competing with each other or being far too loud for no muslims.  Just turning the volume down a bit.

Sharia would not supersede state law in Israel.  Boo Hoo

They would get Israeli wage scale, which in most cases is nearly double what the PA pays for the same job.

They would become arab israelis and not be "palestinians".


----------



## rhodescholar

Shusha said:


> We have a thread to discuss solutions to the conflict from the lens of two states.  Many members would prefer a one state solution.  So let's discuss that as well.
> 
> What would a one state solution look like?  How would it preserve both the Jewish and the Arab character of the territory?  Do you envision a system of loosely connected, self-governing provinces with a federal government or just one overall government?  Would parliament be half Jewish/half Arab, or would there be some sort of proportional representation?  How would you protect the minority populations, including some which may be somewhat hostile?  How would you preserve the cultural artifacts of each group, both tangible and non-tangible?  Who gets to pray on the Temple Mount, renovate or build there? Would the Jewish people be able to build a synagogue there?  What would you call the new country?  What would its charter look like?  Will the laws be based on sharia or halakhah or both or neither?  Will immigration be based on jus soli or jus sanguinis?  Who will be eligible?  Will civil matters, such as marriage, be handled by civil courts or by religious institutions?
> 
> Some are going to say, "a secular and democratic state" (I'm looking at you P F Tinmore  and montelatici).  Please be specific.  What does this mean?  This is a great opportunity for you to discuss not only the mistakes you see Israel making -- but provide solutions.  How will the new country handle illegal building?  Or terrorist acts?  Terrorist groups who try to rise up?  How will you handle discrimination?
> 
> How will you convince me that in a hundred years, the state will still be both a Jewish state and also an Arab state?



The real question is why don't the scumbag filth you refer to never complain that the arab muslim countries - which have over 100X the population of Israel - become "secular and democratic"?

The one state solution is the only realistic one, where the arab muslims in the west bank and gaza move out to their countries of origin; egypt, syria and jordan.


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Trump and Netanyahu Acknowledge the Death of the Two-State Solution *

**


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, you chose to sidestep and waffle.
> 
> Both versions of your Islamic terrorist heroes masquerading as Pal'istanians have their own unique version of a mini-caliphate and Islamist Pally'land, neither of which includes either Israel or the competing Islamic terrorist enclave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And you always rattle on about crap in spite of the evidence.
Click to expand...


I understand your feelings are hurt but how are your hurt feelings an excuse for a pointless one-liner?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *Trump and Netanyahu Acknowledge the Death of the Two-State Solution *
> 
> **



It's about time. The Hamas charter (and Islamist ideology), never allowed for a two state solution.  Unfortunately, you haven’t taken the time or the effort to understand your islamist history of crusades, colonialism, war and conquest.  Islamism’s history is not one of cooperation and coexistence.


----------



## TrueTT

The entire Arab argument against Israel is such a pathetic crock of sh*t. "Oooooh nooo, those cursed Jews defeated us in the war that we instigated. Let's go cry at the UN annually for the next 70 years and counting".

I'm of the opinion that Israel owes the Arabs absolutely nothing. The Palestinians should be carted off to Jordan and left to rot.


----------



## Shusha

Okaaaay, then.  So Team Palestine denies Jewish existence, let alone rights.  And Team Israel calls for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.  Nice, people.  / sarcasm.

No one has any idea about how to make a one state solution actually work?  With mutual respect and preservation of culture and self-determination for both peoples?


----------



## Indeependent

Shusha said:


> Okaaaay, then.  So Team Palestine denies Jewish existence, let alone rights.  And Team Israel calls for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.  Nice, people.  / sarcasm.
> 
> No one has any idea about how to make a one state solution actually work?  With mutual respect and preservation of culture and self-determination for both peoples?


How many Arab nations have spent even 30 years living in peace with their fellow Arabs?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Indeependent said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okaaaay, then.  So Team Palestine denies Jewish existence, let alone rights.  And Team Israel calls for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.  Nice, people.  / sarcasm.
> 
> No one has any idea about how to make a one state solution actually work?  With mutual respect and preservation of culture and self-determination for both peoples?
> 
> 
> 
> How many Arab nations have spent even 30 years living in peace with their fellow Arabs?
Click to expand...

Palestine.


----------



## rhodescholar

Shusha said:


> Okaaaay, then.  So Team Palestine denies Jewish existence, let alone rights.  And Team Israel calls for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.  Nice, people.  / sarcasm.  No one has any idea about how to make a one state solution actually work?  With mutual respect and preservation of culture and self-determination for both peoples?



It has NOTHING to do with being "nice" - it has to do with REALITY.

Show me an instance where muslims tolerated the sovereign rights of other people who were non-muslims as EQUALS, EVER in their history for any length of time more than a few years, under more than one ruler, it has never happened.  muslims have conquered and destroyed their way across the planet, and the only thing that kept them from conquering more territory was either a stronger enemy army or the topography/ocean got in the way.  Peaceful co-existence with muslims is not possible, and they do not respect women's rights or the basic civil rights found in Western democracies, as we see in Sweden, Germany, Greece, and France.

Personally, I'd prefer being alive and not enduring endless crime, terrorism and violence than being politically correct so a few leftist turds will pat me on the shoulder and say: "thank you for being nice to the musims".


----------



## rhodescholar

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestine.



Fucking mongoloid must not be aware of Black September, or how the pals were expelled from places like Qatar for siding with saddam, or how assad in syria bombed them in Latakia for siding with the sunni rebels, or how the PLO massacred shia and others in Lebanon when it was there.

These people are the low IQ scum of the earth, no wonder they support the shit of humanity called the fakestinians.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

TrueTT said:


> The entire Arab argument against Israel is such a pathetic crock of sh*t. "Oooooh nooo, those cursed Jews defeated us in the war that we instigated. Let's go cry at the UN annually for the next 70 years and counting".
> 
> I'm of the opinion that Israel owes the Arabs absolutely nothing. The Palestinians should be carted off to Jordan and left to rot.



Syria, not Jordan.


----------



## Shusha

Carbondater said:


> It has NOTHING to do with being "nice" - it has to do with REALITY.
> 
> Show me an instance where muslims tolerated the sovereign rights of other people who were non-muslims as EQUALS, EVER in their history ...



Oh, you have no idea how much I agree with you.  See, this thread was the opportunity for Team Palestine to demonstrate the concepts of equality and shared sovereignty.  See how well they are doing so far?

That said, calling for ethnic cleansing is not cool.  On either side.  I get that there is an existential threat to the Jewish people.  And I get that there is no evidence that this threat is diminishing or receding in the Palestinians.  Those things are valid.  But we have also demonstrated (as they have not) that we can treat all peoples as equals.


----------



## TrueTT

Toddsterpatriot said:


> TrueTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire Arab argument against Israel is such a pathetic crock of sh*t. "Oooooh nooo, those cursed Jews defeated us in the war that we instigated. Let's go cry at the UN annually for the next 70 years and counting".
> 
> I'm of the opinion that Israel owes the Arabs absolutely nothing. The Palestinians should be carted off to Jordan and left to rot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Syria, not Jordan.
Click to expand...


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okaaaay, then.  So Team Palestine denies Jewish existence, let alone rights.  And Team Israel calls for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.  Nice, people.  / sarcasm.
> 
> No one has any idea about how to make a one state solution actually work?  With mutual respect and preservation of culture and self-determination for both peoples?
> 
> 
> 
> How many Arab nations have spent even 30 years living in peace with their fellow Arabs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Palestine.
Click to expand...

You know why?
Because they were always nomads without a home, wandering across land not worth a damn to conquer and were never organized enough to become a threat.
You're welcome.


----------



## Lipush

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fanger said:
> 
> 
> 
> jewish is a religion Arabian is a race
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not helping.  I'll tell you what, for the sake of this thread -- which is to discuss solutions -- let's come up with two words for the Jewish people in terms of ethnicity/religion, like we have for the Arab Palestinian Muslims.  I'd suggest Jewish Torahides.
> 
> Use the word "Jews" or "Jewish" for the ethnicity.  And "Torahides" for the faith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Stop redefining words to meet your needs. You try that on every thread. Jews are Jews. Judaism is a religion.
> 
> The one state solution is the solution proposed from our traditional rabbis (who are Jewish).
> 
> You pretend you are so well read. If you were, then you would know this and there would be no need for this thread of for anyone to take the time to explain it to you.
> 
> Do your own research and check back. If you have fair questions at that point, then I will help you out the best that I can.
Click to expand...



Judaism is the ethnic belonging of the Jewish people. Jews comes from the remaining tribe of Judea. One can convert hundred times and again to Christianity or Islam, they're still Jews by athnic belonging. 

Judaism is passed on by mother. You're Jewish if your mother is one. You can believe in whatever religion you want, you're still a Jew.


----------



## Lipush

One state solution will mean, forcing Israel and Palestine into miserable marriage, instead of having a friendly divorce.

It will mean that we will have to share Israel with our ememies and lose the Zionist dream. 

E... No.


----------



## Lipush

Shusha said:


> Okaaaay, then.  So Team Palestine denies Jewish existence, let alone rights.  And Team Israel calls for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.  Nice, people.  / sarcasm.
> 
> No one has any idea about how to make a one state solution actually work?  With mutual respect and preservation of culture and self-determination for both peoples?




What's with "Team Palestine" and "Team Israel"?

This aint Twilight


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Oh, you have no idea how much I agree with you. See, this thread was the opportunity for Team Palestine to demonstrate the concepts of equality and shared sovereignty. See how well they are doing so far?



Other than one or two comments, I had to get to page 4 to find some sensible comments from EITHER side! 

I can't see a one state solution working... I have little to no faith in EITHER leaders having the stomach to create a workable co-governance... Which, to be fair, would have to happen in a one state solution!



Shusha said:


> That said, calling for ethnic cleansing is not cool



Understatement of the year!


----------



## rhodescholar

Shusha said:


> That said, calling for ethnic cleansing is not cool.



Removing the arab muslim illegal immigrants from the west bank and gaza is not ethnic cleansing, at least compared to what the arab muslims have done to the yazidis, copts, maronites, chaldeans, maneachans, azeri, bahai, zoroastrians, and so many other groups that they have slaughtered, genocided, ethnically cleansed, practiced apartheid, terrorized, etc.

There is historical precedence for what I am proposing: in the 1940s India and Pakistan conducted a population exchange where large numbers of muslims and Hindus were exchanged between the countries; for Israel and the arab states, 1/2 of this process already took place when the arab muslims ethnically cleansed their jews out, so now it is time for the arab muslim population to be transferred/move to the arab muslim countries out of Israel and complete the transfer.  

The jews lived up to their side of the arrangement, NOW it it is time for the arab musims to do the same.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

TrueTT said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TrueTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire Arab argument against Israel is such a pathetic crock of sh*t. "Oooooh nooo, those cursed Jews defeated us in the war that we instigated. Let's go cry at the UN annually for the next 70 years and counting".
> 
> I'm of the opinion that Israel owes the Arabs absolutely nothing. The Palestinians should be carted off to Jordan and left to rot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Syria, not Jordan.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Syria sucks and so do "Palestinians", they deserve each other.


----------



## Lipush

Carbondater said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Other than one or two comments, I had to get to page 4 to find some sensible comments from EITHER side! I can't see a one state solution working... I have little to no faith in EITHER leaders having the stomach to create a workable co-governance... Which, to be fair, would have to happen in a one state solution!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were you under the lunatic impression ANYONE other than the scum of the earth, terrorist-supporing vermin here gives a flying fuck about your opinion, stupid asshole?  You pretend to be "for both sides", yet have a fakestinian flag in your signature, you lying piece of shit.
Click to expand...


----------



## rhodescholar

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Syria sucks and so do "Palestinians", they deserve each other.



I enjoyed when assad was bombing the hell out of them in Latakia a few years back, how come that didn't make the world press covers and headlines?


----------



## Lipush

Carbondater said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Syria sucks and so do "Palestinians", they deserve each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoyed when assad was bombing the hell out of them in Latakia a few years back, how come that didn't make the world press covers and headlines?
Click to expand...


Dude...


----------



## montelatici

Carbondater said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, calling for ethnic cleansing is not cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Removing the arab muslim illegal immigrants from the west bank and gaza is not ethnic cleansing, at least compared to what the arab muslims have done to the yazidis, copts, maronites, chaldeans, maneachans, azeri, bahai, zoroastrians, and so many other groups that they have slaughtered, genocided, ethnically cleansed, practiced apartheid, terrorized, etc.
> 
> There is historical precedence for what I am proposing: in the 1940s India and Pakistan conducted a population exchange where large numbers of muslims and Hindus were exchanged between the countries; for Israel and the arab states, 1/2 of this process already took place when the arab muslims ethnically cleansed their jews out, so now it is time for the arab muslim population to be transferred/move to the arab muslim countries out of Israel and complete the transfer.
> 
> The jews lived up to their side of the arrangement, NOW it it is time for the arab musims to do the same.
Click to expand...


The illegal immigrants were the Zionists.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the indigenous people. The Muslim Palestinians are descendants of the Christians that were 100% of the population before the Muslim conquest, that eventually converted to Islam.  The Christians are the descendants of the Jews and Samaritans that started converting to Christianity with the birth of Christ and the establishment of Christianity as the the state religion of Rome in 380 AD. (When Christianity became obligatory in order to reside in Palestine).

*"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."*

Conversely:

" *It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants* who have
settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. T 

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59



And:




A Survey of Palestine Volume 1  | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University


----------



## rhodescholar

Debunking the claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel - Blogs - Jerusalem Post

"Everybody agrees that the current affluence of Israel, its modern infrastructure and economy were developed by the Jews. The Palestinian Arab narrative is that as the ancient, indigenous people of Palestine they feel dispossessed and they deserve to take over Israel’s riches. Jewish claims to their heritage in the land of Israel are supported by abundant archaeological artifacts and historical reco

Meanwhile, there are no records to support the Palestinian narrative. In history, art and literature there is no trace at all of any Muslim people referred to by anybody as “Palestinians.” 

Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (_*The Peel Commission Report - 1937)"*_


----------



## montelatici

Carbondater said:


> Debunking the claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel - Blogs - Jerusalem Post
> 
> "Everybody agrees that the current affluence of Israel, its modern infrastructure and economy were developed by the Jews. The Palestinian Arab narrative is that as the ancient, indigenous people of Palestine they feel dispossessed and they deserve to take over Israel’s riches. Jewish claims to their heritage in the land of Israel are supported by abundant archaeological artifacts and historical reco
> 
> Meanwhile, there are no records to support the Palestinian narrative. In history, art and literature there is no trace at all of any Muslim people referred to by anybody as “Palestinians.”
> 
> Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (_*The Peel Commission Report - 1937)"*_



The usual Zionist propaganda.  The Peel Report says nothing about immigration.  The increase of the Muslim and Christian population was exclusively as a result of natural increase, as reported in A/364 the background attachment for the Partition resolution. The European population increase was exclusively through legal and illegal immigration.  Stop parroting  Zionist propaganda, it was debunked long ago. No one but idiots that can't or refuse to read the source documentation continue to believe the Zionist propaganda.

*"UNITED*
*NATIONS
A*






*General Assembly*













 A/364
3 September 1947
*OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE SECOND SESSION OF *
*THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY*


*SUPPLEMENT No. 11*



*UNITED NATIONS*
*SPECIAL COMMITTEE*
*ON PALESTINE*

(b) IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. *The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration.* From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

*16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths.*


https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3


----------



## P F Tinmore

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okaaaay, then.  So Team Palestine denies Jewish existence, let alone rights.  And Team Israel calls for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.  Nice, people.  / sarcasm.
> 
> No one has any idea about how to make a one state solution actually work?  With mutual respect and preservation of culture and self-determination for both peoples?
> 
> 
> 
> How many Arab nations have spent even 30 years living in peace with their fellow Arabs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Palestine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know why?
> Because they were always nomads without a home, wandering across land not worth a damn to conquer and were never organized enough to become a threat.
> You're welcome.
Click to expand...

Indeed?


----------



## Coyote

*Lets not get distracted from the main point of the discussion please - it's on a One State Solution.*


----------



## rhodescholar

montelatici said:


> The increase of the Muslim and Christian population was exclusively as a result of natural increase,



Repeating the same lie does not make it true, little stupid monkey.  The arab population increased 3-fold in 15 years - as your link showed - which can only have occurred from immigration, you stupid fucking retard.


----------



## montelatici

Carbondater said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The increase of the Muslim and Christian population was exclusively as a result of natural increase,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating the same lie does not make it true, little stupid monkey.  The arab population increased 3-fold in 15 years - as your link showed - which can only have occurred from immigration, you stupid fucking retard.
Click to expand...


You mean, repeating the same documented facts, contained in official survey documents, upsets you because the don't jive with the propaganda you have been conditioned by.  Interestingly, under the French Mandate the population increased at an even greater rate.  I wonder where all those immigrants came from. LOL


----------



## Indeependent

montelatici said:


> Carbondater said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The increase of the Muslim and Christian population was exclusively as a result of natural increase,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating the same lie does not make it true, little stupid monkey.  The arab population increased 3-fold in 15 years - as your link showed - which can only have occurred from immigration, you stupid fucking retard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean, repeating the same documented facts, contained in official survey documents, upsets you because the don't jive with the propaganda you have been conditioned by.  Interestingly, under the French Mandate the population increased at an even greater rate.  I wonder where all those immigrants came from. LOL
Click to expand...


You mean the way you present out of context Links on a continuous basis?
Are you and TinLess married?


----------



## montelatici

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carbondater said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The increase of the Muslim and Christian population was exclusively as a result of natural increase,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating the same lie does not make it true, little stupid monkey.  The arab population increased 3-fold in 15 years - as your link showed - which can only have occurred from immigration, you stupid fucking retard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean, repeating the same documented facts, contained in official survey documents, upsets you because the don't jive with the propaganda you have been conditioned by.  Interestingly, under the French Mandate the population increased at an even greater rate.  I wonder where all those immigrants came from. LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean the way you present out of context Links on a continuous basis?
> Are you and TinLess married?
Click to expand...


No, just facts.  You don't do facts, I get it.


----------



## Indeependent

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carbondater said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The increase of the Muslim and Christian population was exclusively as a result of natural increase,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating the same lie does not make it true, little stupid monkey.  The arab population increased 3-fold in 15 years - as your link showed - which can only have occurred from immigration, you stupid fucking retard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean, repeating the same documented facts, contained in official survey documents, upsets you because the don't jive with the propaganda you have been conditioned by.  Interestingly, under the French Mandate the population increased at an even greater rate.  I wonder where all those immigrants came from. LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean the way you present out of context Links on a continuous basis?
> Are you and TinLess married?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just facts.  You don't do facts, I get it.
Click to expand...

You *do* preset facts...
[] Out of context documents
[] Laws that never became actual laws
[] Treaties superceded by other Treaties or Agreements
[] Crying that the Jews bought land via Legal Transactions
[] Then claiming the Legal Transactions were part of some nefarious plot because some Jew haters, including Jews that hated being Jews were publishing articles about the "evil" Arabs.
[] Plus you're just plain full of sh!t.

The *fact* is that you are so disingenuous that I haven't ignored you due to the sheer entertainment value of your demented mind.


----------



## Shusha

The 85%-of-land-was-owned-by-Arabs is a particularly nefarious lie because the very same document monte quotes from specifically notes that all land not privately owned by Jews was lumped together under the category "Arab land" -- including all crown lands, unused land, waste land, swamp, desert.  

But, all that is off-topic.  Does ANYONE have ANYTHING to say in response to the OP?


----------



## teddyearp

Don't recall who said it, maybe more than one, but my fear of a one state solution is that the intent of a place the Jews can actually call their own home could disappear.

After all, the Jews are the 'chosen people' right? Historically, they have been chosen to have their asses kicked out of everywhere they tried to be for the last three or so thousand years; yet they still survive.  Yep, chosen all right. Chosen for eternal grief.  I think it is time.


----------



## Humanity

teddyearp said:


> Don't recall who said it, maybe more than one, but my fear of a one state solution is that the intent of a place the Jews can actually call their own home could disappear.



Absolutely!

A one state solution is, possibly, the most difficult solution to achieve, in terms of finding a balance for Jews and Palestinians...

In my mind, a one state solution is impractical and has more negatives than positives.


----------



## rhodescholar

montelatici said:


> The fact is, you can't accept the facts.  You are unable to support any of your assertions, you just make things up.



What is a fact is that you are mentally ill and incredibly stupid - which is why most ignore you.  The few who respond do so to get enjoyment out of kicking you in the face over and over, and like the stupid little monkey you are, you just keep repeating the same post over and over LOL.  No wonder the arab filth live in 22 non-democratic shitholes, they have leadership as unintelligent as you are.

To the rational: a one-state solution is the only obvious, acceptable solution - transfer the arab muslim population out like India did so the muslims can fuck up their own country, and blame everyone else for their failings like they always do.


----------



## montelatici

Carbondater said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Text of the Peel Commission Report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now retard you are using the jewish virtual library?  You claimed that it was a propaganda site, fucking mongoloid.
Click to expand...


I try to use Jewish sources as much as possible especially when it is a simple task to check that the text of an historical document (available elsewhere) , has not been counterfeited. You see, I never use partisan sites that are pro-Palestinian.  I am hated by your kind because I only present facts from unimpeachable sources.  You will always lose against me, pal.  I have the facts and you use propaganda, you can't win.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> The 85%-of-land-was-owned-by-Arabs is a particularly nefarious lie because the very same document monte quotes from specifically notes that all land not privately owned by Jews was lumped together under the category "Arab land" -- including all crown lands, unused land, waste land, swamp, desert.
> 
> But, all that is off-topic.  Does ANYONE have ANYTHING to say in response to the OP?


This whole argument is misleading. Private property ownership does not remove land from a country. It doesn't matter who owns what, it is still all Palestinian land.


----------



## P F Tinmore

montelatici said:


> Carbondater said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Text of the Peel Commission Report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now retard you are using the jewish virtual library?  You claimed that it was a propaganda site, fucking mongoloid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I try to use Jewish sources as much as possible especially when it is a simple task to check that the text of an historical document (available elsewhere) , has not been counterfeited. You see, I never use partisan sites that are pro-Palestinian.  I am hated by your kind because I only present facts from unimpeachable sources.  You will always lose against me, pal.  I have the facts and you use propaganda, you can't win.
Click to expand...

I find that the Jewish Virtual Library is a reliable source for documents.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 85%-of-land-was-owned-by-Arabs is a particularly nefarious lie because the very same document monte quotes from specifically notes that all land not privately owned by Jews was lumped together under the category "Arab land" -- including all crown lands, unused land, waste land, swamp, desert.
> 
> But, all that is off-topic.  Does ANYONE have ANYTHING to say in response to the OP?
> 
> 
> 
> This whole argument is misleading. Private property ownership does not remove land from a country. It doesn't matter who owns what, it is still all Palestinian land.
Click to expand...


We agree, which is why I want monte to stop using it.  Private land ownership has no bearing whatsoever on sovereignty.

Yep, its all Palestinian land -- land intended, by treaty and international law, to be the National Homeland for the Jewish people.  Now called Israel.  

But the two of us already know where we agree and where we disagree on these points.  You were the one person I was hoping would actually address the OP and give some solutions rather than just play the same cards over and over.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 85%-of-land-was-owned-by-Arabs is a particularly nefarious lie because the very same document monte quotes from specifically notes that all land not privately owned by Jews was lumped together under the category "Arab land" -- including all crown lands, unused land, waste land, swamp, desert.
> 
> But, all that is off-topic.  Does ANYONE have ANYTHING to say in response to the OP?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha is another counterfeiter, but shrewder.  He just states his lies without links.  He makes things up. The same document says nothing of the sort.  The calculation of who owned the land was based on the examination of cadastral documents and tax assessments.  The Muslim and Christians owned more than 85% of the land in 1946, as the Survey of Palestine stated.
Click to expand...


She is a she.  And she gave you the links when we had this long conversation a few months ago.  I just don't post the same links, over and over and over again like you do.  I expect people to absorb the information and learn from it.

But, since you asked so nicely, and called me "shrewd", which I take as a complete compliment!






Note, please, the very specific designations public (crown or state) land, miri land and mewat land in article 82. Thousands of square kms of land which is NOT OWNED PRIVATELY by Arabs or by anyone else. 

Now, did you have anything to say about the OP?


----------



## flacaltenn

*Moderation Note: 

Coyote warned y'all back on Pg 6 that this discussion wasn't gonna be the 111th skirmish on the 2000 yr old history of immigration into the region. The OP is specific about "one state solution" concept based on current realities of representation and statehood. And the discussion is to be CONFINED to that -- or folks are gonna be warned or ejected. 

I'm cleaning this ONE time -- then we're gonna start counting "strikes" and balls again.. 

Will re-open shortly.. *


----------



## flacaltenn

*Bump...  Stay on topic or get thread banned or forum banned.. 
*


----------



## Shusha

The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?



Won't happen...

A one state solution will be predominantly Arab... This is why I believe it's not a viable option, for anyone!

Then. lets say, the one state solution is chosen as the 'best' solution... How long will it take for one or other to ask for their own independent state?

A 2 or 3 state solution is surely the best solution?

I have never seen anything that convinces me a one state solution CAN work.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?



I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?
Click to expand...


Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.

Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?


----------



## boedicca

The One State solution is one in which Israel maintains enough land mass and defensible borders to defend itself in the face of annihilation by Anti-Semitic Arab States.   It's why so many Progs oppose it.


----------



## rhodescholar

Israel is NOT going to be the next egypt, lebanon or iraq, places where the country was primarily christian and successful - then stupidly allowed lots of arab muslims in, who of course used violence to take over the country, and then began slaughtering/ethnically cleansing the christians.  The mideast will burn like a flame before that shit happens again.

The arab muslims need to start respecting the sovereign rights of other people, or this region - and planet - are going to have lots of major wars in the coming decades.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
Click to expand...


Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Why not?


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
Click to expand...


The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main question in the OP is this:  How will you convince me that in 100 years the one state will be a Jewish state as well as an Arab state?  Exactly, how will you maintain the self-determination of the Jewish state with a Jewish character and a vibrant Jewish culture and Jewish ideals and values?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
Click to expand...

Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
Click to expand...


I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a legitimate concern.  The only way I can imagine it is a federation of some type with two semi-autonomous regions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
Click to expand...

Yeah, just like Iraq is in Iran's way and Iran is in Iraq's way.
How does it feel to be a member of such an irrationally violent people?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
Click to expand...

Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.



Oh please.  At this point, they are no more refugees than the million Jews who were expelled from or fled ME countries in the 1940s and their 4 million descendants.  Once you are resettled you are no longer a refugee.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
Click to expand...

Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?



What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  At this point, they are no more refugees than the million Jews who were expelled from or fled ME countries in the 1940s and their 4 million descendants.  Once you are resettled you are no longer a refugee.
Click to expand...

Separate and unrelated issue. That has nothing to do with the Palestinians.


----------



## Indeependent

The West Bank Jordanians belong in Jordan.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
Click to expand...

In one state all refugees could go back home.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In one state all refugees could go back home.
Click to expand...

To Jordan...sounds good to me.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  At this point, they are no more refugees than the million Jews who were expelled from or fled ME countries in the 1940s and their 4 million descendants.  Once you are resettled you are no longer a refugee.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Separate and unrelated issue. That has nothing to do with the Palestinians.
Click to expand...


Not unrelated.  But not the point.  The point being that refugees are no longer refugees once they are resettled.  It applies as much to the Arab Palestinians as any other people.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In one state all refugees could go back home.
Click to expand...


In a one state all PEOPLE could live wherever they choose.  So what was your point?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In one state all refugees could go back home.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a one state all PEOPLE could live wherever they choose.  So what was your point?
Click to expand...

The point is that all of the proposals given so far would deny the rights of half of the Palestinians.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In one state all refugees could go back home.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a one state all PEOPLE could live wherever they choose.  So what was your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The point is that all of the proposals given so far would deny the rights of half of the Palestinians.
Click to expand...


The proposals on which thread?  The one state solution?  The two state solution?  The no more states solution?

On this thread, the one state solution, what, exactly are the Palestinians giving up?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In one state all refugees could go back home.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a one state all PEOPLE could live wherever they choose.  So what was your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The point is that all of the proposals given so far would deny the rights of half of the Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The proposals on which thread?  The one state solution?  The two state solution?  The no more states solution?
> 
> On this thread, the one state solution, what, exactly are the Palestinians giving up?
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter. None of them recognize the right of the Palestinians to go back to their homes.


----------



## Eloy

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In one state all refugees could go back home.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a one state all PEOPLE could live wherever they choose.  So what was your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The point is that all of the proposals given so far would deny the rights of half of the Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The proposals on which thread?  The one state solution?  The two state solution?  The no more states solution?
> 
> On this thread, the one state solution, what, exactly are the Palestinians giving up?
Click to expand...

The so-called one-state solution is not a solution to the Zionist/Palestinian conflict.
In essence, there is already the one-state of Israel which has annexed the West Bank and designate it Sumeria and Judea, similar to the Generalgouvernement of the Third Reich. The Gaza Strip is a designated homeland for indigenous Palestinians and there are pockets of Palestinian ghettos in Sumeria and Judea.

I see this Apartheid State of Israel existing for another generation or longer until its pretense as a democracy is made manifest to those who really matter, the UN Security Council where the United States blocks all criticism of Israel. By boldly extending it border from the Mediterranean Sea to the River Jordan, the Israelis' lust for land that belongs to Palestinians has within it the source of its destruction as a Jewish state.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which really is just a variation of a two state solution.  We agree.  And also with Humanity.  I just can't see a one state solution being possible.
> 
> Unless...the third possibility is to create a one-state Israel solution but to cede parts of the territory and some of its residents to Jordan and Egypt.  Of course, that requires their co-operation.  I wonder if that would be worth another thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
Click to expand...

It is the Palestinian's right and Israel's obligation.

How can you just blow it off like it is nothing?


----------



## ForeverYoung436

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is the Palestinian's right and Israel's obligation.
> 
> How can you just blow it off like it is nothing?
Click to expand...


Because it is nothing.  My parents were also refugees at one point.  They have no desire to go back to the land of their origin.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What rights would the Palestinians be giving up in a one state solution?
> 
> 
> 
> In one state all refugees could go back home.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a one state all PEOPLE could live wherever they choose.  So what was your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The point is that all of the proposals given so far would deny the rights of half of the Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The proposals on which thread?  The one state solution?  The two state solution?  The no more states solution?
> 
> On this thread, the one state solution, what, exactly are the Palestinians giving up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The so-called one-state solution is not a solution to the Zionist/Palestinian conflict.
> In essence, there is already the one-state of Israel which has annexed the West Bank and designate it Sumeria and Judea, similar to the Generalgouvernement of the Third Reich. The Gaza Strip is a designated homeland for indigenous Palestinians and there are pockets of Palestinian ghettos in Sumeria and Judea.
> 
> I see this Apartheid State of Israel existing for another generation or longer until its pretense as a democracy is made manifest to those who really matter, the UN Security Council where the United States blocks all criticism of Israel. By boldly extending it border from the Mediterranean Sea to the River Jordan, the Israelis' lust for land that belongs to Palestinians has within it the source of its destruction as a Jewish state.
Click to expand...


Israel has never officially annexed the West Bank.  They are allowed to call the area by its traditional biblical names.  The Cherokee Indians might also call Arizona by a different name.  There are more than Palestinian "ghettos" in the West Bank, there are still plenty of Palestinian cities (Bethlehem, Jericho, Nablus, Ramallah, Jenin, etc.).  In other words, there is still plenty of room for a Palestinian state on the West Bank.  Don't let any false maps convince you otherwise.  The refugee camps that are still there can be dismantled.  With a 2 state solution, Israel can maintain its distinctive Jewish character, and the Palestinians can maintain their non-distinctive Arab character, which is similar to the other 22 Arab states.


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be - for example, I can't see Gaza in a one state solution.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is the Palestinian's right and Israel's obligation.
> 
> How can you just blow it off like it is nothing?
Click to expand...

My feelings on this is it is not an unlimited right.  How far back would you go? How about the Jews who were displaced by the Palestinians and then in turn displaced them?  How about native Americans? How far back?

In my opinion right of return only applies to those displaced, not their descendents. All else needs to be negotiated.


----------



## Coyote

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
Click to expand...

West bankers belong in West bank.


----------



## Eloy

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Why not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is the Palestinian's right and Israel's obligation.
> 
> How can you just blow it off like it is nothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it is nothing.  My parents were also refugees at one point.  They have no desire to go back to the land of their origin.
Click to expand...

You are misinformed if you think that people within a generation or two of being ethnically cleansed from their homeland will have no expectation or desire to return there. I have even heard that some Jews today consider immigrating to Israel as returning home after thousands of years of exile. Seriously.


----------



## Indeependent

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
Click to expand...

Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.


----------



## Coyote

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
Click to expand...

So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The antipathy would be difficult to reconcile and Gaza is the portion that most leans towards eradicating Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Could be because 3/4 of the people in Gaza are refugees who want to go back home. Israel is the only thing in their way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is the Palestinian's right and Israel's obligation.
> 
> How can you just blow it off like it is nothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it is nothing.  My parents were also refugees at one point.  They have no desire to go back to the land of their origin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are misinformed if you think that people within a generation or two of being ethnically cleansed from their homeland will have no expectation or desire to return there. I have even heard that some Jews today consider immigrating to Israel as returning home after thousands of years of exile. Seriously.
Click to expand...


What are you talking about?  Do you mean that Arabs should "return" to Haifa, Tel-Aviv and Beersheba?  First of all, since you've never been to Israel, I can let you know that there are already lots of Arabs who live there.  Secondly, I think the Arabs themselves should make a decision about whether they would receive financial compensation instead.  That decision shouldn't be made by Brits or Scandinavians, like you or Tinmore.  Previously, Eloy, you said that you were in favor of the 2-state solution.  Has that changed?


----------



## Indeependent

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do think the refugee situation needs to be resolved, but I'm not sure 1.3 million people (most of whom have not lived anywhere but Gaza) could flood into Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
Click to expand...

When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.


----------



## Coyote

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
Click to expand...




Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does every so called peace proposals require the Palestinians to give up rights while Israel gives up nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
Click to expand...


Convenient excuse for stealing their land.


----------



## Indeependent

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
> 
> 
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because the West Bank Jordanians actually belong in Jordan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
Click to expand...

I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
Put up or shut up.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
Click to expand...


Actually, except for the occasional victim like Taylor Force, not many American tourists are killed on the West Bank.  It would hurt the tourist industry's Christmas Eve celebrations in Bethlehem.  From what I've read, the PA areas are more Westernized than Gaza.  I wouldn't really advise her to go to Gaza while wearing a cross.


----------



## Coyote

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> West bankers belong in West bank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
Click to expand...


Nice diversion.

Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.


----------



## Indeependent

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice diversion.
> 
> Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.
Click to expand...

Coming from someone who would defend a serial killer that's a compliment.


----------



## Coyote

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> 
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice diversion.
> 
> Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Coming from someone who would defend a serial killer that's a complement.
Click to expand...

What serial killer?


----------



## Shusha

Okay, working with P F Tinmore 's requirement that all people of Palestinian ethnicity who want to move back to the one state can and do -- how do you preserve the Jewish character of the State in a one state solution?  

Address the very real concern that Palestine will become just another Arab Muslim state in the ME.  What specifically would you do to ensure the survival of Jewish self-determination?


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Shusha said:


> Okay, working with P F Tinmore 's requirement that all people of Palestinian ethnicity who want to move back to the one state can and do -- how do you preserve the Jewish character of the State in a one state solution?
> 
> Address the very real concern that Palestine will become just another Arab Muslim state in the ME.  What specifically would you do to ensure the survival of Jewish self-determination?



Are you asking Tinmore?  He couldn't care less about Israel's Jewish identity.


----------



## Indeependent

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice diversion.
> 
> Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Coming from someone who would defend a serial killer that's a complement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What serial killer?
Click to expand...

Any Muslim who kills in the of Allah; you think I don't read your insane rationales for Arabs murdering Israelis?


----------



## Shusha

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Are you asking Tinmore?  He couldn't care less about Israel's Jewish identity.




I'm asking anyone who believes in a one state solution to convince me how it would be better for the Jewish people than a two state solution or a no more states solution.  

I can't think of a single reason why it would be at all good for the Jewish people.  And I think all the people on this board who champion a one state solution do so because they know it spells the end of Jewish independence.


----------



## toomuchtime_

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking Tinmore?  He couldn't care less about Israel's Jewish identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking anyone who believes in a one state solution to convince me how it would be better for the Jewish people than a two state solution or a no more states solution.
> 
> I can't think of a single reason why it would be at all good for the Jewish people.  And I think all the people on this board who champion a one state solution do so because they know it spells the end of Jewish independence.
Click to expand...

Neither the Jews nor the Arabs want a one state solution(?).  It is just something that morons like Kerry use to try to frighten Israelis into obeying what the Obama administration told them to do in the same way some parents tell children the boogeyman will get them if they do not do as they are told.  

Since everyone means something different by a two state final status agreement, it simply isn't a meaningful term unless the specifics are defined each time it is used.  The same goes for "peace".  Israel already has  a peace treaty with the PLO and on the ground, Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is the most peaceful place in the ME.  Since there is already de jure and de facto peace, no final status agreement can bring any more peace.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking Tinmore?  He couldn't care less about Israel's Jewish identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking anyone who believes in a one state solution to convince me how it would be better for the Jewish people than a two state solution or a no more states solution.
> 
> I can't think of a single reason why it would be at all good for the Jewish people.  And I think all the people on this board who champion a one state solution do so because they know it spells the end of Jewish independence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Neither the Jews nor the Arabs want a one state solution(?).  It is just something that morons like Kerry use to try to frighten Israelis into obeying what the Obama administration told them to do in the same way some parents tell children the boogeyman will get them if they do not do as they are told.
> 
> Since everyone means something different by a two state final status agreement, it simply isn't a meaningful term unless the specifics are defined each time it is used.  The same goes for "peace".  Israel already has  a peace treaty with the PLO and on the ground, Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is the most peaceful place in the ME.  Since there is already de jure and de facto peace, no final status agreement can bring any more peace.
Click to expand...


I don't know about all that "peace" you're talking about.  My best friend and his family in Jerusalem had to stay indoors during that "knife intifada", and my relatives had to flee Haifa for a few weeks when that city was burning.


----------



## Humanity

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking Tinmore?  He couldn't care less about Israel's Jewish identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking anyone who believes in a one state solution to convince me how it would be better for the Jewish people than a two state solution or a no more states solution.
> 
> I can't think of a single reason why it would be at all good for the Jewish people.  And I think all the people on this board who champion a one state solution do so because they know it spells the end of Jewish independence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Neither the Jews nor the Arabs want a one state solution(?).  It is just something that morons like Kerry use to try to frighten Israelis into obeying what the Obama administration told them to do in the same way some parents tell children the boogeyman will get them if they do not do as they are told.
> 
> Since everyone means something different by a two state final status agreement, it simply isn't a meaningful term unless the specifics are defined each time it is used.  The same goes for "peace".  Israel already has  a peace treaty with the PLO and on the ground, Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is the most peaceful place in the ME.  Since there is already de jure and de facto peace, no final status agreement can bring any more peace.
Click to expand...


So, you are against a one state solution, a two state solution is a meaningless term...

And your solution is?


----------



## toomuchtime_

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking Tinmore?  He couldn't care less about Israel's Jewish identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking anyone who believes in a one state solution to convince me how it would be better for the Jewish people than a two state solution or a no more states solution.
> 
> I can't think of a single reason why it would be at all good for the Jewish people.  And I think all the people on this board who champion a one state solution do so because they know it spells the end of Jewish independence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Neither the Jews nor the Arabs want a one state solution(?).  It is just something that morons like Kerry use to try to frighten Israelis into obeying what the Obama administration told them to do in the same way some parents tell children the boogeyman will get them if they do not do as they are told.
> 
> Since everyone means something different by a two state final status agreement, it simply isn't a meaningful term unless the specifics are defined each time it is used.  The same goes for "peace".  Israel already has  a peace treaty with the PLO and on the ground, Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is the most peaceful place in the ME.  Since there is already de jure and de facto peace, no final status agreement can bring any more peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know about all that "peace" you're talking about.  My best friend and his family in Jerusalem had to stay indoors during that "knife intifada", and my relatives had to flee Haifa for a few weeks when that city was burning.
Click to expand...

Still the homicide rate in Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is less than half that of the US, and there is no basis for believing a final status agreement with the Arabs would make it any more peaceful.


----------



## toomuchtime_

Humanity said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking Tinmore?  He couldn't care less about Israel's Jewish identity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking anyone who believes in a one state solution to convince me how it would be better for the Jewish people than a two state solution or a no more states solution.
> 
> I can't think of a single reason why it would be at all good for the Jewish people.  And I think all the people on this board who champion a one state solution do so because they know it spells the end of Jewish independence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Neither the Jews nor the Arabs want a one state solution(?).  It is just something that morons like Kerry use to try to frighten Israelis into obeying what the Obama administration told them to do in the same way some parents tell children the boogeyman will get them if they do not do as they are told.
> 
> Since everyone means something different by a two state final status agreement, it simply isn't a meaningful term unless the specifics are defined each time it is used.  The same goes for "peace".  Israel already has  a peace treaty with the PLO and on the ground, Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is the most peaceful place in the ME.  Since there is already de jure and de facto peace, no final status agreement can bring any more peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you are against a one state solution, a two state solution is a meaningless term...
> 
> And your solution is?
Click to expand...

Everyone is against a one state solution and a two state solution remains an undefined term so so the only solution that isn't just empty rhetoric is the status quo.


----------



## Shusha

toomuchtime_ said:


> The same goes for "peace".  Israel already has  a peace treaty with the PLO and on the ground, Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is the most peaceful place in the ME.  Since there is already de jure and de facto peace, no final status agreement can bring any more peace.



Good point.  I've heard it said that the I/P conflict is one of the more peaceful conflicts, despite its length.  Still, a final agreement of borders in a two state solution would be an improvement, imo, if only to get the international community to lay off Israel.


----------



## Shusha

toomuchtime_ said:


> Everyone is against a one state solution and a two state solution remains an undefined term so so the only solution that isn't just empty rhetoric is the status quo.


Actually, we've defined it pretty well on the two state solution thread.


----------



## toomuchtime_

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same goes for "peace".  Israel already has  a peace treaty with the PLO and on the ground, Israel, including the parts of Judea and Samaria Israel controls, is the most peaceful place in the ME.  Since there is already de jure and de facto peace, no final status agreement can bring any more peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point.  I've heard it said that the I/P conflict is one of the more peaceful conflicts, despite its length.  Still, a final agreement of borders in a two state solution would be an improvement, imo, if only to get the international community to lay off Israel.
Click to expand...

But what is a two state solution?  Netanyahu and Abbas both say they support a two state solution, but they mean very different things by a "two state solution" so no final agreement is possible for the foreseeable future.  The European have always hated Jews except for a brief period of embarrassment after the Holocaust.  With some exceptions, they will continue to hate as long as we are alive.


----------



## toomuchtime_

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is against a one state solution and a two state solution remains an undefined term so so the only solution that isn't just empty rhetoric is the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, we've defined it pretty well on the two state solution thread.
Click to expand...

Netanyahu and Abbas both believe in a two state solution, but Netanyahu's vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Abbas and Abbas' vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Netanyahu, so when you say two state solution, which two state solution are you referring to, Abbas' or Netanyahu's?


----------



## Shusha

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is against a one state solution and a two state solution remains an undefined term so so the only solution that isn't just empty rhetoric is the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, we've defined it pretty well on the two state solution thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Netanyahu and Abbas both believe in a two state solution, but Netanyahu's vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Abbas and Abbas' vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Netanyahu, so when you say two state solution, which two state solution are you referring to, Abbas' or Netanyahu's?
Click to expand...


I'm referring to the one we worked out on the thread.  Seems like a reasonable solution.  Why wouldn't either Netanyahu or Abbas go for it?


----------



## toomuchtime_

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is against a one state solution and a two state solution remains an undefined term so so the only solution that isn't just empty rhetoric is the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, we've defined it pretty well on the two state solution thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Netanyahu and Abbas both believe in a two state solution, but Netanyahu's vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Abbas and Abbas' vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Netanyahu, so when you say two state solution, which two state solution are you referring to, Abbas' or Netanyahu's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm referring to the one we worked out on the thread.  Seems like a reasonable solution.  Why wouldn't either Netanyahu or Abbas go for it?
Click to expand...

I haven't read that thread, so will you briefly describe it to me?


----------



## Shusha

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is against a one state solution and a two state solution remains an undefined term so so the only solution that isn't just empty rhetoric is the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, we've defined it pretty well on the two state solution thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Netanyahu and Abbas both believe in a two state solution, but Netanyahu's vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Abbas and Abbas' vision of an Arab state is unacceptable to Netanyahu, so when you say two state solution, which two state solution are you referring to, Abbas' or Netanyahu's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm referring to the one we worked out on the thread.  Seems like a reasonable solution.  Why wouldn't either Netanyahu or Abbas go for it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I haven't read that thread, so will you briefly describe it to me?
Click to expand...


I'll bump it on the other thread  and tag you.  I'm curious to see what you have to say .


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone besides the victors living in the West Bank of Jordan belongs in Jordan proper, but the caring, loving Jordanians left them in the conquered West Bank of Jordan hoping the Jews would kill them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice diversion.
> 
> Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.
Click to expand...

Good point. Every crime needs a remedy. The creation of Israel was a crime against the Palestinian people. The solutions by the Israeli side always include more ethnic cleansing, more theft of land, more killing, and more violations of Palestinian's rights.

Sorry, I don't see a solution here.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> 
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice diversion.
> 
> Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good point. Every crime needs a remedy. The creation of Israel was a crime against the Palestinian people. The solutions by the Israeli side always include more ethnic cleansing, more theft of land, more killing, and more violations of Palestinian's rights.
> 
> Sorry, I don't see a solution here.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but Israel isn't going anywhere.  Ahm Yisroel Chai (the People of Israel will live forever)!!


----------



## ForeverYoung436

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the preponderance of those to be
> cleansed is the desire to commit murder?  Yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I invite you to vacation in Gaza or The conquered Jordanian West Bank.
> And don't forget to wear your Cross proudly.
> One more thing, put my name in your Life Insurance Policy.
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice diversion.
> 
> Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good point. Every crime needs a remedy. The creation of Israel was a crime against the Palestinian people. The solutions by the Israeli side always include more ethnic cleansing, more theft of land, more killing, and more violations of Palestinian's rights.
> 
> Sorry, I don't see a solution here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, but Israel isn't going anywhere.  Ahm Yisroel Chai (the People of Israel will live forever)!!
Click to expand...


You never offer any solutions,or even try to see the other side at all.  All you ever do is demonize Israel.  I could say the Vietnam War was a crime against the Vietnamese people and demonize you as a criminal for participating in it (even as a teacher), but I'm grown-up and see that there are 2 sides to the story.  BTW, there are alot of Israeli Arabs who see things way different than you (like Muhammed Zoabi), and they're closer to the situation at hand.  If Hanan Ashrawi, a spokesperson for the Palestinians, can say she supports a 2-state solution, who are you, a Scandinavian living on stolen Native American land, to say otherwise?  We need dedicated negotiators to solve this problem, not deluded philosophers who think Israel "has no land", not ppl who openly admit that they don't mind 2-year-old toddlers being killed, on either side!  I don't know why you've latched onto this issue, but I find your opinions to be very cynical and sad.  And, btw, Palestine was never a country, no matter what a fake map on the back of your Bible, shows.  A Bible, of all things!  What does your Bible say about who Eretz Yisroel belongs to?


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Every crime needs a remedy. The creation of Israel was a crime against the Palestinian people.


Let's assume for the moment that it is true that "every crime needs a remedy" (I'm not entirely sure that it is, depending on how you define 'remedy').  The problem with this, as Coyote pointed out somewhere, is where do you put a fence around this?

IF a crime has been committed against the Palestinian people... a crime has been committed against the Jewish people, against the Korean people, against the Scots people, against the Maori people, against the North and South American First Nations peoples, against Tibetan people, against the Vietnamese, the Cambodians, the Rwandans, the Sudanese, the Armenians, the Franks, and the Kurds and the Spanish, the Indians, and the Normans and the Welsh and the OMG -- I would be hard pressed to find a peoples anywhere on the planet who didn't have this very same crime committed against them at some time in their history!

Where does it end?  When we start putting things 'right' and giving people their homelands back do we give the British Isles to the Saxons or the Normans or the Danes or the Pictish or....  Its ridiculous.  Further, how do we even TELL who is who?  Massive DNA studies on every citizen?  Cultural association?  Self-identification?

Remedies need to be forward thinking, not backward thinking.  The idea is not to restore things to the way they were (impossible), but to find a solution which gives the Palestinian people a dignified way forward with self-determination.  AND gives the Jewish people the same.


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> Nice diversion.Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.



The pakistan/india population exchange is the best solution for the region.  The arab muslims ethnically cleansed the jews out of their countries, now it is time for the arab muslims to emigrate out of Israel, the west bank, and gaza.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> So, you are against a one state solution, a two state solution is a meaningless term...And your solution is?



Why don't you present the forum with an example of arab muslim peaceful co-existence with another group who is non-muslim, EVER, in their history where the other group was not a second-class minority.  Good luck there, sweetie.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every crime needs a remedy. The creation of Israel was a crime against the Palestinian people.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's assume for the moment that it is true that "every crime needs a remedy" (I'm not entirely sure that it is, depending on how you define 'remedy').  The problem with this, as Coyote pointed out somewhere, is where do you put a fence around this?
> 
> IF a crime has been committed against the Palestinian people... a crime has been committed against the Jewish people, against the Korean people, against the Scots people, against the Maori people, against the North and South American First Nations peoples, against Tibetan people, against the Vietnamese, the Cambodians, the Rwandans, the Sudanese, the Armenians, the Franks, and the Kurds and the Spanish, the Indians, and the Normans and the Welsh and the OMG -- I would be hard pressed to find a peoples anywhere on the planet who didn't have this very same crime committed against them at some time in their history!
> 
> Where does it end?  When we start putting things 'right' and giving people their homelands back do we give the British Isles to the Saxons or the Normans or the Danes or the Pictish or....  Its ridiculous.  Further, how do we even TELL who is who?  Massive DNA studies on every citizen?  Cultural association?  Self-identification?
> 
> Remedies need to be forward thinking, not backward thinking.  The idea is not to restore things to the way they were (impossible), but to find a solution which gives the Palestinian people a dignified way forward with self-determination.  AND gives the Jewish people the same.
Click to expand...

The thing is that it is a crime that continues today. It has been continuous for a hundred years. The most important thing is that the Palestinians are not going to let it slide. There are many Palestinians outside of the country who are drumming up support for their rights. They have the freedom to do what those stuck inside cannot. They are doing many different things to promote their cause.


----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, you are against a one state solution, a two state solution is a meaningless term...And your solution is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you present the forum with an example of arab muslim peaceful co-existence with another group who is non-muslim, EVER, in their history where the other group was not a second-class minority.  Good luck there, sweetie.
Click to expand...


And your solution is?


----------



## rhodescholar

Shusha said:


> The idea is not to restore things to the way they were (impossible), but to find a solution which gives the Palestinian people a dignified way forward with self-determination.  AND gives the Jewish people the same.



There is no "palestinian" people, there never was.  If these arab clans living in the west bank/gaza actually wanted to build a real country - and not simply destroy Israel which is all arab muslims ever do regarding other cultures - they would have created a functional one by now.  But instead of building operating, real government agencies, a civil society, the rule of law, etc., the fakestinian regime sends in women and children with knives to stab jews - THAT is their 2nd greatest accomplishment.  Their first was convincing/using Western leftist/liberal trash to keep pretending they are victims and sending them lots of aid $$.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> And your solution is?



Answer my question, if you can.  You can of course show the forum lots of examples throughout history, can't you?

As for my "solution," see 135.  As someone from the mideast, I can only laugh at useful idiots like you who think you know WTF you are talking about.  It is a known fact across the region that the arabs flooded into Israel in the 1920s - now they claim they were always "indigenous", what a fucking joke.  If I had a nickel for every Westerner asshole who argues on behalf of the fakestinians yet has no fucking idea whatsoever that they are talking about, I'd own the internet.


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.



How do you "steal" land?  You scoop it up and put it in your pocket?

Oh, you mean a people who never existed, who were artificially created by the KGB in the 1960s, who moved from egypt, syria and jordan, who have opted to use terrorism and wars in place of negotiation, claim they own the land?  Those fucking frauds?  They can leave any time they want.


----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> And your solution is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Answer my question, if you can.  You can of course show the forum lots of examples throughout history, can't you?
Click to expand...


Well, rather than answering a question WITH a question, how about you tell everyone what your solution is?


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> Well, rather than answering a question WITH a question, how about you tell everyone what your solution is?



So I guess you're another dishonest, useless fraud who cannot admit that the arab muslims have NEVER in their history lived peacefully with another group.

Your refusal to answer that question is all the proof of your admission we need.


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> And your solution is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Answer my question, if you can.  You can of course show the forum lots of examples throughout history, can't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, rather than answering a question WITH a question, how about you tell everyone what your solution is?
Click to expand...

I believe RS provided the solution...
Leave.


----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, rather than answering a question WITH a question, how about you tell everyone what your solution is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess you're another dishonest, useless fraud who cannot admit that the arab muslims have NEVER in their history lived peacefully with another group.
> 
> Your refusal to answer that question is all the proof of your admission we need.
Click to expand...


Its ok, if you don't get the process of Q&A, you aren't quite the 'scholar' you think you are...

Let's see...

Your solution is?


----------



## Humanity

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> And your solution is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Answer my question, if you can.  You can of course show the forum lots of examples throughout history, can't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, rather than answering a question WITH a question, how about you tell everyone what your solution is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe RS provided the solution...
> Leave.
Click to expand...


Oh I see...

Just imagine if everyone thought the same... Palestinians LEAVE... Jews LEAVE...

Yeah, a proper adult debate!


----------



## montelatici

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you "steal" land?  You scoop it up and put it in your pocket?
> 
> Oh, you mean a people who never existed, who were artificially created by the KGB in the 1960s, who moved from egypt, syria and jordan, who have opted to use terrorism and wars in place of negotiation, claim they own the land?  Those fucking frauds?  They can leave any time they want.
Click to expand...


The Palestinians were defending their rights to the land in 1921 and 1922 in London.  They were called the Palestinian people then, just as now. Long before the 1960s.  The Palestinians, were also called παλαιστίνιος and Palaestino in Greek and Latin when Palestine was a Roman province. 

The Palestinian people are the native people of Palestine.  They did not come from elsewhere.  The Jews on the other hand, are Europeans that invaded Palestine from another continent.  If they Jews feel that the resistance of the native people is disturbing, they can go back to where they came from.


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> And your solution is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Answer my question, if you can.  You can of course show the forum lots of examples throughout history, can't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, rather than answering a question WITH a question, how about you tell everyone what your solution is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe RS provided the solution...
> Leave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I see...
> 
> Just imagine if everyone thought the same... Palestinians LEAVE... Jews LEAVE...
> 
> Yeah, a proper adult debate!
Click to expand...

The Arabs ran, the Jews stayed.
I know TheFuckingJews.org has a revised history of what happened, but guess what?
The West Bank Jordanians blew it big time.


----------



## Indeependent

montelatici said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you "steal" land?  You scoop it up and put it in your pocket?
> 
> Oh, you mean a people who never existed, who were artificially created by the KGB in the 1960s, who moved from egypt, syria and jordan, who have opted to use terrorism and wars in place of negotiation, claim they own the land?  Those fucking frauds?  They can leave any time they want.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Palestinians were defending their rights to the land in 1921 and 1922 in London.  They were called the Palestinian people then, just as now. Long before the 1960s.  The Palestinians, were also called παλαιστίνιος and Palaestino in Greek and Latin when Palestine was a Roman province.
> 
> The Palestinian people are the native people of Palestine.  They did not come from elsewhere.  The Jews on the other hand, are Europeans that invaded Palestine from another continent.  If they Jews feel that the resistance of the native people is disturbing, they can go back to where they came from.
Click to expand...

And ain't it too bad that WWI and WWII created new borders all over Europe and the Arabian Peninsula.
That's right!  Your bullshit sites omitted that chunk of information.


----------



## montelatici

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you "steal" land?  You scoop it up and put it in your pocket?
> 
> Oh, you mean a people who never existed, who were artificially created by the KGB in the 1960s, who moved from egypt, syria and jordan, who have opted to use terrorism and wars in place of negotiation, claim they own the land?  Those fucking frauds?  They can leave any time they want.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Palestinians were defending their rights to the land in 1921 and 1922 in London.  They were called the Palestinian people then, just as now. Long before the 1960s.  The Palestinians, were also called παλαιστίνιος and Palaestino in Greek and Latin when Palestine was a Roman province.
> 
> The Palestinian people are the native people of Palestine.  They did not come from elsewhere.  The Jews on the other hand, are Europeans that invaded Palestine from another continent.  If they Jews feel that the resistance of the native people is disturbing, they can go back to where they came from.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And ain't it too bad that WWI and WWII created new borders all over Europe and the Arabian Peninsula.
> That's right!  Your bullshit sites omitted that chunk of information.
Click to expand...


Yes, it is too bad that the "new borders' have created an eternal war situation in the Middle East.


----------



## Indeependent

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you "steal" land?  You scoop it up and put it in your pocket?
> 
> Oh, you mean a people who never existed, who were artificially created by the KGB in the 1960s, who moved from egypt, syria and jordan, who have opted to use terrorism and wars in place of negotiation, claim they own the land?  Those fucking frauds?  They can leave any time they want.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Palestinians were defending their rights to the land in 1921 and 1922 in London.  They were called the Palestinian people then, just as now. Long before the 1960s.  The Palestinians, were also called παλαιστίνιος and Palaestino in Greek and Latin when Palestine was a Roman province.
> 
> The Palestinian people are the native people of Palestine.  They did not come from elsewhere.  The Jews on the other hand, are Europeans that invaded Palestine from another continent.  If they Jews feel that the resistance of the native people is disturbing, they can go back to where they came from.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And ain't it too bad that WWI and WWII created new borders all over Europe and the Arabian Peninsula.
> That's right!  Your bullshit sites omitted that chunk of information.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it is too bad that the "new borders' have created an eternal war situation in the Middle East.
Click to expand...

I also feel sad that so many millions of Muslims spend so much energy murdering each other.


----------



## montelatici

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Convenient excuse for stealing their land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you "steal" land?  You scoop it up and put it in your pocket?
> 
> Oh, you mean a people who never existed, who were artificially created by the KGB in the 1960s, who moved from egypt, syria and jordan, who have opted to use terrorism and wars in place of negotiation, claim they own the land?  Those fucking frauds?  They can leave any time they want.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Palestinians were defending their rights to the land in 1921 and 1922 in London.  They were called the Palestinian people then, just as now. Long before the 1960s.  The Palestinians, were also called παλαιστίνιος and Palaestino in Greek and Latin when Palestine was a Roman province.
> 
> The Palestinian people are the native people of Palestine.  They did not come from elsewhere.  The Jews on the other hand, are Europeans that invaded Palestine from another continent.  If they Jews feel that the resistance of the native people is disturbing, they can go back to where they came from.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And ain't it too bad that WWI and WWII created new borders all over Europe and the Arabian Peninsula.
> That's right!  Your bullshit sites omitted that chunk of information.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it is too bad that the "new borders' have created an eternal war situation in the Middle East.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I also feel sad that so many millions of Muslims spend so much energy murdering each other.
Click to expand...


Crocodile tears.


----------



## rhodescholar

Indeependent said:


> I also feel sad that so many millions of Muslims spend so much energy murdering each other.



That's their international pastime, just wish far more of them would take up the hobby - at least the ones who haven't already left their countries to collect welfare and benefits in Germany and Sweden.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> Your solution is?



Are you brain damaged?  See post #135 IN THIS THREAD.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> Oh I see...Just imagine if everyone thought the same... Palestinians LEAVE... Jews LEAVE...Yeah, a proper adult debate!



Here's the BEST option for the fakestinians -  the best they will EVER get, and it even came from one of their own, which of course they refused since their goal has not/never will be to BUILD their own country, only to destroy Israel:

Yes, There Is a Solution to the Palestinian Conflict With Israel


----------



## Indeependent

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you "steal" land?  You scoop it up and put it in your pocket?
> 
> Oh, you mean a people who never existed, who were artificially created by the KGB in the 1960s, who moved from egypt, syria and jordan, who have opted to use terrorism and wars in place of negotiation, claim they own the land?  Those fucking frauds?  They can leave any time they want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians were defending their rights to the land in 1921 and 1922 in London.  They were called the Palestinian people then, just as now. Long before the 1960s.  The Palestinians, were also called παλαιστίνιος and Palaestino in Greek and Latin when Palestine was a Roman province.
> 
> The Palestinian people are the native people of Palestine.  They did not come from elsewhere.  The Jews on the other hand, are Europeans that invaded Palestine from another continent.  If they Jews feel that the resistance of the native people is disturbing, they can go back to where they came from.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And ain't it too bad that WWI and WWII created new borders all over Europe and the Arabian Peninsula.
> That's right!  Your bullshit sites omitted that chunk of information.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it is too bad that the "new borders' have created an eternal war situation in the Middle East.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I also feel sad that so many millions of Muslims spend so much energy murdering each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Crocodile tears.
Click to expand...

Not really...An incredible amount of wasted potential.


----------



## Coyote

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice diversion.Ethnic cleansing is barbaric. The forcable  transfer of people is considered a crime for good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The *pakistan/india population exchange is the best solution for the region*.  The arab muslims ethnically cleansed the jews out of their countries, now it is time for the arab muslims to emigrate out of Israel, the west bank, and gaza.
Click to expand...


The partition was a horrific mess with horrendous bloodshed.  Not only that, it was sheer arrogance that the people in charge assumed religion was the only important factor!  It left Bengali in the cold.

Best solution?  Bloodiest solution.  And a crime against humanity.  

So because Arab countries expelled Jews - that justifies, in your mind, expelling people who had nothing to do with the decisions of those countries?


----------



## Coyote

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I see...Just imagine if everyone thought the same... Palestinians LEAVE... Jews LEAVE...Yeah, a proper adult debate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the BEST option for the fakestinians -  the best they will EVER get, and it even came from one of their own, which of course they refused since their goal has not/never will be to BUILD their own country, only to destroy Israel:
> 
> Yes, There Is a Solution to the Palestinian Conflict With Israel
Click to expand...


Was that offer ever actually made?


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> The thing is that it is a crime that continues today. It has been continuous for a hundred years.


So what?  The crime against the Jewish people went on for three thousand years.  The crime against the indigenous British people has been going on for over a thousand.  The First Nations of the Americas for several hundred years.  Etc, etc, etc.  Off the top of my head, I'd say the Koreans were pretty successful in getting "remedy" for the crime against them, but they are pretty much the only ones so far.  



> The most important thing is that the Palestinians are not going to let it slide. There are many Palestinians outside of the country who are drumming up support for their rights.



Yes -- but they have to be clear what those rights are.  They have the right to self-determination.  I agree with you that this is an inherent, human right.  Those rights do not include denying others their right to self-determination, including the Jewish people.


----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your solution is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you brain damaged?  See post #135 IN THIS THREAD.
Click to expand...


No my friend...

It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution!

That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME...

So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? 

It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> The partition was a horrific mess with horrendous bloodshed.  Not only that, it was sheer arrogance that the people in charge assumed religion was the only important factor!  It left Bengali in the cold.  Best solution?  Bloodiest solution.  And a crime against humanity.  So because Arab countries expelled Jews - that justifies, in your mind, expelling people who had nothing to do with the decisions of those countries?



You must have forgotten how arab muslims are doing TEN TIMES WORSE THAN THAT RIGHT FUCKING NOW to the coptics, yazidis, maronites, chaldeans, maneachans, azeri, bahai, etc.  The arab muslims are no longer getting a pass for their fucking shit, murderous, genocidal behavior - and it is LONG past time they were held to account for what they have done - and are currently doing.


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> Was that offer ever actually made?



Of course it was - READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...



Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.

Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.

You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.

Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?


----------



## Indeependent

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
Click to expand...

That was sort of brilliant.
In fact, that *was* brilliant.
Kudos.


----------



## Coyote

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The partition was a horrific mess with horrendous bloodshed.  Not only that, it was sheer arrogance that the people in charge assumed religion was the only important factor!  It left Bengali in the cold.  Best solution?  Bloodiest solution.  And a crime against humanity.  So because Arab countries expelled Jews - that justifies, in your mind, expelling people who had nothing to do with the decisions of those countries?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You must have forgotten how arab muslims are doing TEN TIMES WORSE THAN THAT RIGHT FUCKING NOW to the coptics, yazidis, maronites, chaldeans, maneachans, azeri, bahai, etc.  The arab muslims are no longer getting a pass for their fucking shit, murderous, genocidal behavior - and it is LONG past time they were held to account for what they have done - and are currently doing.
Click to expand...

ISIS is ISIS.


----------



## Coyote

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was that offer ever actually made?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it was - READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE.
Click to expand...


The problem is I've read articles saying it wasn't a serious offer also, hence the question that seems to have sent you into a rage.


----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
Click to expand...


Oh, oh... Calm down dear...

It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...

Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!


----------



## Coyote

Humanity said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
Click to expand...


Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.  I'm guessing this poster and his buddy would have cheered the Trail of Tears.

It's no solution.


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> ISIS is ISIS.



And is arab muslim.

And is supported by many millions of arab muslims - since they could not exist or continue fighting for a decade without them.  But bottom feeders like you prefer to try and obscure/ignore every example of the hideousness of arab muslims, while highighting lesser items of their enemies.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!



What's clear is that you're dishonest trash, and think that by attacking me you can continue to avoid being called out as garbage.

So I ask the question again, when have the arab muslims EVER in their history lived peacefully alongside non-muslims?


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.  I'm guessing this poster and his buddy would have cheered the Trail of Tears.  It's no solution.



They are no different than the illegal alien mexicans and nicaraguans who walked across the US border; they have no right to be there.  They came for jobs - now they have to leave.

There is lots of land in saudia arabia, egypt and throughout the mideast - they can live there.  I'm fed up with watching the arab muslims ethnically cleanse everyone else out of the mideast - then complain with help from enabling morons like you - about how the one group they cannot force out (Israel) is standing up for itself and not capitulating like the others who are not as militarily strong.


----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's clear is that you're dishonest trash, and think that by attacking me you can continue to avoid being called out as garbage.
> 
> So I ask the question again, when have the arab muslims EVER in their history lived peacefully alongside non-muslims?
Click to expand...


Hahaha "attacking" you?

So, you don't have a sensible solution, maybe stop posting on this thread!


----------



## Lipush

Coyote said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
Click to expand...


Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> Hahaha "attacking" you?  So, you don't have a sensible solution, maybe stop posting on this thread!



Not only are you trash but are HIGHLY unintelligent with ZERO credibility. 

To the forum at large, I'd suggest putting this turd on ignore and/or bypassing them entirely until they and their pro-arab terror apologists can answer this most fundamental, core question:

*"When have the arab muslims EVER in their history lived peacefully alongside non-muslims for any length of time?
*
It is not surprising but telling that NOT ONE SINGLE pro-arab muslim poster here has even attempted to respond to this post, NONE.


----------



## yiostheoy

Shusha said:


> We have a thread to discuss solutions to the conflict from the lens of two states.  Many members would prefer a one state solution.  So let's discuss that as well.
> 
> What would a one state solution look like?  How would it preserve both the Jewish and the Arab character of the territory?  Do you envision a system of loosely connected, self-governing provinces with a federal government or just one overall government?  Would parliament be half Jewish/half Arab, or would there be some sort of proportional representation?  How would you protect the minority populations, including some which may be somewhat hostile?  How would you preserve the cultural artifacts of each group, both tangible and non-tangible?  Who gets to pray on the Temple Mount, renovate or build there? Would the Jewish people be able to build a synagogue there?  What would you call the new country?  What would its charter look like?  Will the laws be based on sharia or halakhah or both or neither?  Will immigration be based on jus soli or jus sanguinis?  Who will be eligible?  Will civil matters, such as marriage, be handled by civil courts or by religious institutions?
> 
> Some are going to say, "a secular and democratic state" (I'm looking at you P F Tinmore  and montelatici).  Please be specific.  What does this mean?  This is a great opportunity for you to discuss not only the mistakes you see Israel making -- but provide solutions.  How will the new country handle illegal building?  Or terrorist acts?  Terrorist groups who try to rise up?  How will you handle discrimination?
> 
> How will you convince me that in a hundred years, the state will still be both a Jewish state and also an Arab state?


I am going to weigh-in on this and point out that in the USA a one-state solution between DEMs and GOP is NOT working.

Therefore it is ludicrous to imagine that a one state solution would work between muslims and Jews in Israel.

The other thing to note is that no matter how much land the Jews give back to the Palestinians there will still never be peace.  The Palestinians will have learned they can get land for peace by effecting terrorism therefore they being barely above the level of farm animals will continue terrorism.

The main mistake that the Jews have made so far is that what little land they have given the Palestinians in Gaza is not enough to hold and feed them all.  So the land issue does need to be revisited.

The only other alternative is for the Jews to exterminate the Palestinians, which is probably their current policy.

In the meantime the US should get out of Israel and stop wasting money on them in foreign aid.


----------



## yiostheoy

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Constitution would be a starting point.  No government-sponsored religion.  No religious tests for office.   Complete freedom of religion.  No discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.
> 
> There is no doubt that Arab-Muslims would immediately start to breed their way to political dominance, and within a generation would initiate some for genocide against the jews.
> 
> The sticking point is that Israel must be a Jewish State.  And while this seems like a racist (or pick another word) demand, the people who see it as such have no problem with the large number of countries that are explicitly designated in their fundamental documents as "Islamic" states.  Thus, the objection to Israel being a Jewish state is in itself racist.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of US constitutional scholars. It is very similar including a "bill of rights."
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's funny stuff. In every implementation of an Islamist state, we find it to be a waking nightmare of social, political and gender apartheid.
> 
> Your _Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan _shares all the same retrograde attributes that afflict other Islamist paradises acrosss the Islamist Middle East. There are competing tribes with competing interests who have no aversion to regime change at the business end of a gun_. _The  Hamas vs. Fatah civil war in the late 2000's showed us precisely the brutality that these two, competing Islamic terrorist franchises are willing to inflict upon one-another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't look at my link.
> 
> How To "Free Palestine"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How to Free Palestine...
> [1] Give a fuck
> [2] *Nobody* gives a fuck
> [3] Plan Fail
Click to expand...

Sad but true.

Jewish influence in the USA and world wide goes against the Palestinians ever having any chance at a realistic SEPARATE COUNTRY with sufficient land to hold and feed them all.


----------



## yiostheoy

Toddsterpatriot said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One state solution = all of current Israel, all of Jerusalem, all of Samaria and Judea and none of Gaza, with 95% of the Arabs deported to Gaza and Jordan!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, we like Jordan. Deport them to Syria.
Click to expand...

Naw, Syria is still to close.

If you are going to deport Palestinians they should go to Turkey with their moosleem brothers.

Turkey is the moosleem superpower in the world (as is Pakistan, but the Pakistanis and the Palestinians would never get along even though both are moosleem) so Turkey should take the Palestinians in if deportation is going to be The Final Solution.


----------



## montelatici

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha "attacking" you?  So, you don't have a sensible solution, maybe stop posting on this thread!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only are you trash but are HIGHLY unintelligent with ZERO credibility.
> 
> To the forum at large, I'd suggest putting this turd on ignore and/or bypassing them entirely until they and their pro-arab terror apologists can answer this most fundamental, core question:
> 
> *"When have the arab muslims EVER in their history lived peacefully alongside non-muslims for any length of time?
> *
> It is not surprising but telling that NOT ONE SINGLE pro-arab muslim poster here has even attempted to respond to this post, NONE.
Click to expand...


From 600 to 1948:  Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq


----------



## Sixties Fan

montelatici said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meet rhodescholar.
> 
> rhodescholar can be very brutal
> 
> rhodescholar doesn't take crap from anyone.
> 
> rhodescholar can be vulgar at cases. rhodescholar is also many times right
> 
> Be right, too
> 
> be like rhodescholar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rhodescholar is wrong on every thing he claims.  He just parrots Zionist propaganda, like you.
> 
> And, his vulgarity and personal attacks are accepted because he is pro-Israel.  If I responded in kind to him I would be banned.  That's how this forum works.  The Zionists have got this place sewn up like they have America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was banned three times on this board, just for saying the truth. So you wont get any sympathy for me.
> 
> Regarding the topic, I already said what I thought. So I have nothing more to add.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When have you ever stated anything that resembles the truth.  You exclusively repeat debunked Zionist propaganda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you once seriously follow my words, intead of repeating the same mantra, you'll realize *I'm one of the ONLY posters on the I/P board whose oppinion should even slightly matter.*
> 
> Unlike the rest of you clowns.
> 
> That should be one more spill of truth for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your words are just a repetition of Zionist propaganda. Palestine was  empty, Palestinians don't exist, Zionists bought all the land, Palestinians came from Lebanon, Palestinians came from Syria, Palestinians came from Egypt and European Jews are from Palestine, etc.
Click to expand...


These are not even "half truths"

"Palestine was empty" -  No visitor to Palestine in the 19th century, nor Zionists ever said that.

"Zionists bought all the land" - No one has ever said that.
What was said is that from 1850 on, as the Ottoman Empire began to financial difficulties, the Ottomans began to sell land to both Arabs and Jews.
Jews bought the swamp area which then became Tel-Aviv, and many other non wanted areas by the Arabs, and built on them.

"Palestinians came from Lebanon, Syria, Egypt" -  and Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bosnia, and many other places where Arabs were living because the Jews, by building a infrastructure, were creating jobs which hired both Jews and non Jews.  It is in Ottoman and British records of the time.
The Ottomans, with their invasions of some areas, also created migration from those places into the region of Palestine.
That is where thousands of Arabs who had never lived in the Region of Palestine came from, and stayed, and ended up involved in the upcoming conflict.


"Jews are from Palestine"  - True
DNA proves it.  Archeology proves it.  The words of the Muslim leaders themselves prove it.
Muslim, Crusader, Ottoman, British records prove that the Jewish people were always present on the land.
European History proves that the Jews were the Jews, who had come from Asia Minor (region of Palestine) and lived in many of the countries in Europe until they were oppressed, attacked or expelled.
Why else would the European Germans want to kill so many Jews instead of forcing them to convert to their European beliefs?
Or the Inquisitors simply expel so many Jews instead of forcing these "Europeans" to convert to Christianity?
-------------

Telling half truths or no truths at all about the history of either people does not help find a solution to end the conflict.
It is truly a hindrance which makes sure that the conflict will go on and on and on and.......

What IS the One State Solution ?  Deal with the fact that Jews are Jews and they have a right to any part of their ancient homeland.
Which for now, is but 20% of its original size.
Which the Muslims, due to Islamic teachings, insist should revert to Muslim hands.

WHAT is the solution?


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha "attacking" you?  So, you don't have a sensible solution, maybe stop posting on this thread!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only are you trash but are HIGHLY unintelligent with ZERO credibility.
> 
> To the forum at large, I'd suggest putting this turd on ignore and/or bypassing them entirely until they and their pro-arab terror apologists can answer this most fundamental, core question:
> 
> *"When have the arab muslims EVER in their history lived peacefully alongside non-muslims for any length of time?
> *
> It is not surprising but telling that NOT ONE SINGLE pro-arab muslim poster here has even attempted to respond to this post, NONE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From 600 to 1948:  Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq
Click to expand...


Well, sure, if you don't count the dhimmi status, the pogroms, the blood libels, the ghettos, the expulsions, the occasional massacres.  In fact, the shining advertisement for Jews to live in Muslim lands instead of Christian lands was that they had physical violence practiced against them slightly less frequently and could actually practice a profession.

Its kind of like the happy, peaceful relationship between Jews and Muslims in modern countries like Iran -- where there are two sets of laws -- one for Muslims and one for Jews.  You know what that is, don't you?


----------



## Coyote

*This thread is NOT about the origins of peoples or states or who was where and when - we have threads dedicated to that already so no more derailing.  Get back on topic - is one state feasable? What would it look like?  This thread will be cleaned.*


----------



## Coyote

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.  I'm guessing this poster and his buddy would have cheered the Trail of Tears.  It's no solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are no different than the illegal alien mexicans and nicaraguans who walked across the US border; they have no right to be there.  They came for jobs - now they have to leave.
> 
> There is lots of land in saudia arabia, egypt and throughout the mideast - they can live there.  I'm fed up with watching the arab muslims ethnically cleanse everyone else out of the mideast - then complain with help from enabling morons like you - about how the one group they cannot force out (Israel) is standing up for itself and not capitulating like the others who are not as militarily strong.
Click to expand...


There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.  Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...no...they aren't like "illegal immigrants" in the US.  People have TIES to land, family ties, cultural ties.


----------



## Coyote

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
Click to expand...


Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
*Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.


----------



## Lipush

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
Click to expand...


Which will create another injustice.


----------



## Lipush

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
Click to expand...


Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.


----------



## Coyote

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which will create another injustice.
Click to expand...


It they illegally built on another person's land using forged documents - how is it an injustice to allow them to profit from their crimes?


----------



## Coyote

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO FUCKING POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries.  They are SO, SO fucking fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the fucking arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.
> 
> Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.
> 
> You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.
> 
> Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.
Click to expand...


I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case.  That was an injustice.


----------



## Lipush

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, oh... Calm down dear...
> 
> It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...
> 
> Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case.  That was an injustice.
Click to expand...


Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.


----------



## Coyote

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case.  That was an injustice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.
Click to expand...


I don't happen agree with that.

I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue.  What are your thoughts on that?


----------



## Lipush

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?
> 
> I'll hold you to what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case.  That was an injustice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't happen agree with that.
> 
> I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue.  What are your thoughts on that?
Click to expand...


I don't think that will improve anything. Unlike P F Tinmore, I don't dream about removing people from their homes, just because it makes me giddy. I hate that he says we should all vanish, just because, and so it will be hypocritical of me to say that about the Arabs.

However, if and when a Palestinian state will exist, it's only natural to expect them to move there, willingly. It won't be wrong to convince them, peacefully, of course, that they'd be better off in their own state.


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.



Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?



> Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?



The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?



> Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...



"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.



I think we have to be very careful when we use phrases like "privately owned Palestinian land" as it carries a MUCH different context here in the west.  Our vision is that Jewish people knocked on the door of a Palestinian family one day and told them to get out.  Or that they burned down a bunch of someone else's olive trees to make way for their own.  Or whatever.  In reality, land laws in Area C are a complex interplay between Ottoman laws, Jordanian laws and Israeli laws.  And if land is not designated as officially "crown lands" it carries the designation of "private Palestinian land" even if that land was unused, had no claimants to it and no had paid taxes on it.  Here is a good article on it. 

Personally, I think the way forward is a humanitarian approach rather than a legal one.  (We can always bend the law to suit our humanity, don't you think?)  That means people have to be able to choose.  But it might also mean that those who do not hold loyalty and allegience to their new state should be extradited.  It means we solve the problems underlying illegal building, rather than worry about illegal building.  And it means that Israel should, unilaterally, take control of those parts of Area C it intends to keep and act accordingly:  all the Palestinian cities and villages in those areas get infrastructure just like Israeli cities do (Israel is already quietly doing this); everything gets surveyed and registered and taxes paid, everything not registered to an individual becomes crown land, every area gets a municipal boundary and a building plan which accommodates everyone.  Conversely, it also means Israel should unilaterally drop control of those parts of Area C in which it intends not to keep and act accordingly:  if you are a Jew and you build there you will get no help or support from Israel.  Carrot and stick.


----------



## montelatici

The fact is, the one-state solution has existed for the past half century or so. There is one state that has control over a territory and population of enfranchised and unenfranchised people.  

It does not seem that the Israelis will have it any other way.  Whether the Israelis and the U.S. can force the  the non-Jews to sign off on a permanent military occupation and control of the borders, air space and territorial sea of an ersatz Palestinian State, or if the non-Jews don't sign-off, it is still a one-state solution. 

The question is whether the system of enforced segregation based on religion/ethnicity, put in place by an exclusive, self defined group in order to maintain colonial conquest and its hold on the land and natural resources will remain in place.


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue.  What are your thoughts on that?



The arab muslims have FIFTY-SEVEN muslim countries to move to, the jews have none.  There is a long history of mis-treatment of jews across the christian and muslim worlds, given that the muslims have treated jews horrendously they cannot complain that after 14 centuries of such that they have a say in the creation of a tiny speck of land the jews can call "home."  There is no comparison between the 2,000 year old claims of the jews and the 3-decade claim of the fakestinians, none.


----------



## Coyote

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case.  That was an injustice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't happen agree with that.
> 
> I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue.  What are your thoughts on that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think that will improve anything. Unlike P F Tinmore, I don't dream about removing people from their homes, just because it makes me giddy. I hate that he says we should all vanish, just because, and so it will be hypocritical of me to say that about the Arabs.
> 
> However, if and when a Palestinian state will exist, it's only natural to expect them to move there, willingly. It won't be wrong to convince them, peacefully, of course, that they'd be better off in their own state.
Click to expand...


I think people should be given free choice - that's how I view it


Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we have to be very careful when we use phrases like "privately owned Palestinian land" as it carries a MUCH different context here in the west.  Our vision is that Jewish people knocked on the door of a Palestinian family one day and told them to get out.  Or that they burned down a bunch of someone else's olive trees to make way for their own.  Or whatever.  In reality, land laws in Area C are a complex interplay between Ottoman laws, Jordanian laws and Israeli laws.  And if land is not designated as officially "crown lands" it carries the designation of "private Palestinian land" even if that land was unused, had no claimants to it and no had paid taxes on it.  Here is a good article on it.
Click to expand...


I realize the complexities of land ownership in that part of the world - but, the courts have definitively ruled on that particular community and documents were falsified.  I don't think sometimes theft is theft right?  If it keeps getting justified, then that adds substance to the allegations made against Israel that they are "stealing" land.  I'll read the article though 



> Personally, I think the way forward is a humanitarian approach rather than a legal one.  (We can always bend the law to suit our humanity, don't you think?)  That means people have to be able to choose.  *But it might also mean that those who do not hold loyalty and allegience to their new state should be extradited.*  It means we *solve the problems underlying illegal building*, rather than worry about illegal building.  And it means that Israel should, unilaterally, take control of those parts of Area C it intends to keep and act accordingly:  a*ll the Palestinian cities and villages in those areas get infrastructure just like Israeli cities do* (Israel is already quietly doing this); everything gets surveyed and registered and taxes paid, everything not registered to an individual *becomes crown land*, every area gets a municipal boundary and a building plan which accommodates everyone.  *Conversely, it also means Israel should unilaterally drop control of those parts of Area C in which it intends not to keep and act accordingly:*  if you are a Jew and you build there you will get no help or support from Israel.  Carrot and stick.



That makes a lot of sense.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?
> 
> Amona:
> *Amona* (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, *the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land.* As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]
> 
> The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed* the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.*[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]
> 
> I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.
> 
> Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we have to be very careful when we use phrases like "privately owned Palestinian land" as it carries a MUCH different context here in the west.  Our vision is that Jewish people knocked on the door of a Palestinian family one day and told them to get out.  Or that they burned down a bunch of someone else's olive trees to make way for their own.  Or whatever.  In reality, land laws in Area C are a complex interplay between Ottoman laws, Jordanian laws and Israeli laws.  And if land is not designated as officially "crown lands" it carries the designation of "private Palestinian land" even if that land was unused, had no claimants to it and no had paid taxes on it.  Here is a good article on it.
> 
> Personally, I think the way forward is a humanitarian approach rather than a legal one.  (We can always bend the law to suit our humanity, don't you think?)  That means people have to be able to choose.  But it might also mean that those who do not hold loyalty and allegience to their new state should be extradited.  It means we solve the problems underlying illegal building, rather than worry about illegal building.  And it means that Israel should, unilaterally, take control of those parts of Area C it intends to keep and act accordingly:  all the Palestinian cities and villages in those areas get infrastructure just like Israeli cities do (Israel is already quietly doing this); everything gets surveyed and registered and taxes paid, everything not registered to an individual becomes crown land, every area gets a municipal boundary and a building plan which accommodates everyone.  Conversely, it also means Israel should unilaterally drop control of those parts of Area C in which it intends not to keep and act accordingly:  if you are a Jew and you build there you will get no help or support from Israel.  Carrot and stick.
Click to expand...


Again, that's why it is impossible to discuss issues with Zionists, they make things up.  The facts don't line up with their myth so they find propaganda that tries to deny the facts to suit their positions. 

Private land was private land, owned by private people from the time of the British Land Reform Act of 1928. 

The Land Settlement Ordinance was introduced in 1928. Rights of ownership were confirmed only after a land and tax survey was completed. The registration of land was made in the names of specific individuals and not in the name of the village, the family, or the tribe.  Public land remained public land.


----------



## Coyote

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue.  What are your thoughts on that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The arab muslims have FIFTY-SEVEN muslim countries to move to, the jews have none.*  There is a long history of mis-treatment of jews across the christian and muslim worlds, given that the muslims have treated jews horrendously they cannot complain that after 14 centuries of such that they have a say in the creation of a tiny speck of land the jews can call "home."  There is no comparison between the 2,000 year old claims of the jews and the 3-decade claim of the fakestinians, none.
Click to expand...


Religion alone doesn't mean a common culture nor does that reasoning give ANYONE a right to uproot a people and expell them.


----------



## montelatici

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.
Click to expand...




rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.
Click to expand...


1. I provide links to the British census figures for immigration.  Non-Jewish immigration was minimal.  The immigration was overwhelming Zionists from Europe from 1920 to 1946.






2.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.  That they converted to Christianity first and then most Islam later, does not change their ancestry.


----------



## Humanity

montelatici said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. I provide links to the British census figures for immigration.  Non-Jewish immigration was minimal.  The immigration was overwhelming Zionists from Europe from 1920 to 1946.
> 
> View attachment 117946
> 
> 2.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.  That they converted to Christianity first and then most Islam later, does not change their ancestry.
Click to expand...


Just a few questions...

What does this have to do with the topic here?
Do you agree that there are also Jews who are the descendents of the people that have always lived in Palestine?
In what way do you think it relevant in maintaining this argument of immigration on virtually every thread?
It's 2017, is it not time to stop the never ending bickering about 'ancient history' and looking forward, not back?

I'm an immigrant... Choosing to live in a country other than that of my birth... An immigrant 4 times!! I have a birth country but my 'roots', my ancestry comes from several countries! Does that mean I have a claim on those countries?


----------



## montelatici

Humanity said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all  immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe.  Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. I provide links to the British census figures for immigration.  Non-Jewish immigration was minimal.  The immigration was overwhelming Zionists from Europe from 1920 to 1946.
> 
> View attachment 117946
> 
> 2.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.  That they converted to Christianity first and then most Islam later, does not change their ancestry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just a few questions...
> 
> What does this have to do with the topic here?
> Do you agree that there are also Jews who are the descendents of the people that have always lived in Palestine?
> In what way do you think it relevant in maintaining this argument of immigration on virtually every thread?
> It's 2017, is it not time to stop the never ending bickering about 'ancient history' and looking forward, not back?
> 
> I'm an immigrant... Choosing to live in a country other than that of my birth... An immigrant 4 times!! I have a birth country but my 'roots', my ancestry comes from several countries! Does that mean I have a claim on those countries?
Click to expand...


I am getting sick and tired of this crap from you.  The whole basis for the position of people like Rhodescholar, is that the Zionist Europeans are indigenous and the Muslim and Christian Palestinians are recent arrivals and should be expelled.  If the basic fact that the Christians and Muslims are descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine undergoing changes in religion they follow, there is no way to have a discussion.

If the Zionist myth were true, i.e. that the Muslims and Christians are newcomers, and that the European Zionists are pure original Jews, then the Zionists should expel the newcomers, they have no business being in Palestine.


----------



## rhodescholar

Coyote said:


> Religion alone doesn't mean a common culture nor does that reasoning give ANYONE a right to uproot a people and expell them.



So that gives them a pass for their fucking shit behavior?  

Tell that to the yazidis, coptics and maronites, who the arab muslims are slaughtering RIGHT NOW, or to the over 1 MM jews who were ethnically cleansed out of arab countries.  When the arab muslims start making amends for their horrible past and improving their current awful behavior, THEN I would be open to discussing the Israel situation.  

Let me refine my earlier question: when have the arab muslims shown any tolerance for the sovereign rights of others in the mideast?


----------



## montelatici

Syria, Iraq, before the U.S. attack on Iraq, Lebanon.


----------



## montelatici

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a few questions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, as soon as you answer the one I've posted numerous times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with the topic here? Do you agree that there are also Jews who are the descendents of the people that have always lived in Palestine? In what way do you think it relevant in maintaining this argument of immigration on virtually every thread? It's 2017, is it not time to stop the never ending bickering about 'ancient history' and looking forward, not back? I'm an immigrant... Choosing to live in a country other than that of my birth... An immigrant 4 times!! I have a birth country but my 'roots', my ancestry comes from several countries! Does that mean I have a claim on those countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I mentioned above, there has NEVER been an instance where arab muslims have tolerated the sovereign rights of non-muslims as equals in the mideast; they have played stupid, useful idiot Westerners' guilt and desire for peace to their advantage, along with luring racist, lying trash like monte et al to their "cause."  arafat knew that Westerners like to solve problems and move forward, so he promulgated the lie that if only the Israelis would give up some land there would be peace, which he knew that was a total fabrication/nonsense.
> 
> Israel has given up land in Lebanon and Gaza, and chunks of the West bank and guess what?  Have the arab turds shown ANY indication that they will stop the terrorism/violence?  Not in the least.  Until the arab muslims are either un-brainwashed of the cancer that is islam, are totally eradicated, or beaten down so hard and penned in a region where they cannot leave - held at the point of a gun, which I'd accept for all of them, they will NEVER stop fighting, ever.
> 
> Their goal is World conquest, as the events in London today showed YET AGAIN.  There is no peace with them, in the mideast or anywhere else.  They exist in a supremist bubble fed by a death cult/fake religion called islam.  This is not politically correct - it is FACT.
Click to expand...


1.  I never lie, I present facts.
2.  I dislike Islam more than you do, it is a repressive supremacist sect, like Judaism. I mean who else represent themselves as the "chosen people" except maybe the Nazis. 
3.  The Zionists have never given up land, they have returned some of the land they have stolen.
4.  The plain fact is that the Muslims and Christians were living in Palestine and European Zionists invaded and colonized the land and became their rulers through the force of British arms.


----------



## Hollie

montelatici said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a few questions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, as soon as you answer the one I've posted numerous times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with the topic here? Do you agree that there are also Jews who are the descendents of the people that have always lived in Palestine? In what way do you think it relevant in maintaining this argument of immigration on virtually every thread? It's 2017, is it not time to stop the never ending bickering about 'ancient history' and looking forward, not back? I'm an immigrant... Choosing to live in a country other than that of my birth... An immigrant 4 times!! I have a birth country but my 'roots', my ancestry comes from several countries! Does that mean I have a claim on those countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I mentioned above, there has NEVER been an instance where arab muslims have tolerated the sovereign rights of non-muslims as equals in the mideast; they have played stupid, useful idiot Westerners' guilt and desire for peace to their advantage, along with luring racist, lying trash like monte et al to their "cause."  arafat knew that Westerners like to solve problems and move forward, so he promulgated the lie that if only the Israelis would give up some land there would be peace, which he knew that was a total fabrication/nonsense.
> 
> Israel has given up land in Lebanon and Gaza, and chunks of the West bank and guess what?  Have the arab turds shown ANY indication that they will stop the terrorism/violence?  Not in the least.  Until the arab muslims are either un-brainwashed of the cancer that is islam, are totally eradicated, or beaten down so hard and penned in a region where they cannot leave - held at the point of a gun, which I'd accept for all of them, they will NEVER stop fighting, ever.
> 
> Their goal is World conquest, as the events in London today showed YET AGAIN.  There is no peace with them, in the mideast or anywhere else.  They exist in a supremist bubble fed by a death cult/fake religion called islam.  This is not politically correct - it is FACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1.  I never lie, I present facts.
> 2.  I dislike Islam more than you do, it is a repressive supremacist sect, like Judaism. I mean who else represent themselves as the "chosen people" except maybe the Nazis.
> 3.  The Zionists have never given up land, they have returned some of the land they have stolen.
> 4.  The plain fact is that the Muslims and Christians were living in Palestine and European Zionists invaded and colonized the land and became their rulers through the force of British arms.
Click to expand...


Well that's strange. The European xtians invaded and stole land through the use of force and supremacist ideas.


----------



## Slyhunter

Coyote said:


> *This thread is NOT about the origins of peoples or states or who was where and when - we have threads dedicated to that already so no more derailing.  Get back on topic - is one state feasable? What would it look like?  This thread will be cleaned.*


The problem is only a nutcase would think one state is feasible when the Arab's refuse to say Israelites have a right to life anywhere in the Middle East.


----------



## Shusha

Slyhunter said:


> The problem is only a nutcase would think one state is feasible when the Arab's refuse to say Israelites have a right to life anywhere in the Middle East.



The only ones who are even considering the idea of a one state solution on this board are those whose goal is to destroy Israel one way or another.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is only a nutcase would think one state is feasible when the Arab's refuse to say Israelites have a right to life anywhere in the Middle East.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only ones who are even considering the idea of a one state solution on this board are those whose goal is to destroy Israel one way or another.
Click to expand...


There is today only one state that controls the area.  The one state solution is a fait accompli.


----------



## rhodescholar

montelatici said:


> 1.  I never lie, I present facts.



Except when you get caught lying, which is quite often.  So is jewishvirtuallibrary an acceptable source this week, or is it next week?  Make up your mind, idiot asshole.



> 2.  I dislike Islam more than you do,



Sure you do, which is why you post only anti-Israel lies/bile in this forum.  Fucking moron.



> it is a repressive supremacist sect, like Judaism.



How is judaism repressive, retard since Western democracy is based upon christian-judeo principles?



> I mean who else represent themselves as the "chosen people" except maybe the Nazis.



ALL groups of people believe they are unique or special, only c-nts like you spend hour after hour attacking jews for it.



> 3.  The Zionists have never given up land, they have returned some of the land they have stolen.



Land held in defensive wars is not stolen, mongoloidal jackass.



> 4.  The plain fact is that the Muslims and Christians were living in Palestine and European Zionists invaded and colonized the land and became their rulers through the force of British arms.



Israeli jews have no issues with christians there - it was arab muslim fucking trash who urinated and desicrated the church of nativity, and have been expelling christians out of gaza and the rest of the mideast.

You are lying, unintelligent vermin.


----------



## rhodescholar

To the jew-hating dogshit, I'll ask the question again: when have the arab muslims EVER accepted the sovereign rights of non-muslims as equals in the mideast?


----------



## montelatici

rhodescholar said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  I never lie, I present facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except when you get caught lying, which is quite often.  So is jewishvirtuallibrary an acceptable source this week, or is it next week?  Make up your mind, idiot asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  I dislike Islam more than you do,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure you do, which is why you post only anti-Israel lies/bile in this forum.  Fucking moron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is a repressive supremacist sect, like Judaism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is judaism repressive, retard since Western democracy is based upon christian-judeo principles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean who else represent themselves as the "chosen people" except maybe the Nazis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ALL groups of people believe they are unique or special, only c-nts like you spend hour after hour attacking jews for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3.  The Zionists have never given up land, they have returned some of the land they have stolen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Land held in defensive wars is not stolen, mongoloidal jackass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4.  The plain fact is that the Muslims and Christians were living in Palestine and European Zionists invaded and colonized the land and became their rulers through the force of British arms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Israeli jews have no issues with christians there - it was arab muslim fucking trash who urinated and desicrated the church of nativity, and have been expelling christians out of gaza and the rest of the mideast.
> 
> You are lying, unintelligent vermin.
Click to expand...


I only present fact.  The Franciscans supported the Palestinians at the church of the Nativity.  The Jews despise Christians and would expel them if they could, but we are too powerful.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> I only present fact.  The Franciscans supported the Palestinians at the church of the Nativity.  The Jews despise Christians and would expel them if they could, but we are too powerful.



Monte facts:

Jews despise Christians.
Jews would expel Christians if they could.
Jews can't expel Christians because Christians are too powerful.  

Do you hear yourself?  Do you know what a "fact" is?


----------



## Humanity

montelatici said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a few questions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, as soon as you answer the one I've posted numerous times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with the topic here? Do you agree that there are also Jews who are the descendents of the people that have always lived in Palestine? In what way do you think it relevant in maintaining this argument of immigration on virtually every thread? It's 2017, is it not time to stop the never ending bickering about 'ancient history' and looking forward, not back? I'm an immigrant... Choosing to live in a country other than that of my birth... An immigrant 4 times!! I have a birth country but my 'roots', my ancestry comes from several countries! Does that mean I have a claim on those countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I mentioned above, there has NEVER been an instance where arab muslims have tolerated the sovereign rights of non-muslims as equals in the mideast; they have played stupid, useful idiot Westerners' guilt and desire for peace to their advantage, along with luring racist, lying trash like monte et al to their "cause."  arafat knew that Westerners like to solve problems and move forward, so he promulgated the lie that if only the Israelis would give up some land there would be peace, which he knew that was a total fabrication/nonsense.
> 
> Israel has given up land in Lebanon and Gaza, and chunks of the West bank and guess what?  Have the arab turds shown ANY indication that they will stop the terrorism/violence?  Not in the least.  Until the arab muslims are either un-brainwashed of the cancer that is islam, are totally eradicated, or beaten down so hard and penned in a region where they cannot leave - held at the point of a gun, which I'd accept for all of them, they will NEVER stop fighting, ever.
> 
> Their goal is World conquest, as the events in London today showed YET AGAIN.  There is no peace with them, in the mideast or anywhere else.  They exist in a supremist bubble fed by a death cult/fake religion called islam.  This is not politically correct - it is FACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1.  I never lie, I present facts.
> 2.  I dislike Islam more than you do, it is a repressive supremacist sect, like Judaism. I mean who else represent themselves as the "chosen people" except maybe the Nazis.
> 3.  The Zionists have never given up land, they have returned some of the land they have stolen.
> 4.  The plain fact is that the Muslims and Christians were living in Palestine and European Zionists invaded and colonized the land and became their rulers through the force of British arms.
Click to expand...


Thanks for trying at least....

Just didn't quite manage to answer a single question there!


----------



## emilynghiem

rhodescholar said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  I never lie, I present facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except when you get caught lying, which is quite often.  So is jewishvirtuallibrary an acceptable source this week, or is it next week?  Make up your mind, idiot asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  I dislike Islam more than you do,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure you do, which is why you post only anti-Israel lies/bile in this forum.  Fucking moron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is a repressive supremacist sect, like Judaism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is judaism repressive, retard since Western democracy is based upon christian-judeo principles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean who else represent themselves as the "chosen people" except maybe the Nazis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ALL groups of people believe they are unique or special, only c-nts like you spend hour after hour attacking jews for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3.  The Zionists have never given up land, they have returned some of the land they have stolen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Land held in defensive wars is not stolen, mongoloidal jackass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4.  The plain fact is that the Muslims and Christians were living in Palestine and European Zionists invaded and colonized the land and became their rulers through the force of British arms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Israeli jews have no issues with christians there - it was arab muslim fucking trash who urinated and desicrated the church of nativity, and have been expelling christians out of gaza and the rest of the mideast.
> 
> You are lying, unintelligent vermin.
Click to expand...


Dear rhodescholar
ideally, if Jewish/Christian/Muslim teachings were followed consistently all three would be in harmony under Biblical law and authority from the one God.

However, in reality that unity spiritually and politically is not seen in the mass chaos and majority who are at war. (Peaceful coexistence and cross-inclusion may be found among peaceful groups and followers, but not so much among the "more vocal visible and violent groups" we tend to see more of in the media)

Instead we see
* extreme ZIONISTS who depart from Christianity and start worshipping Antichrist/Retribution and preaching ARMAGGEDDON or spiritual warfare
* extreme JIHADISTS who depart from Muslim spiritual teachings
and start worshipping JIHAD as SPIRITUAL WARFARE

So both the Christians will say NO, these "extreme Zionists CULTS" (eg Post-Millenial Dispensationalists, or some of the Aryan Nationalist CULTS) ARE NOT CHRISTIAN!

And the MUSLIMS will say NO, these "Jihadist TERRORISTS" are NOT REAL MUSLIM FOLLOWERS but a violent militant cult.

So both you and others have valid points when it comes to these complaints. I find there are mutual problems on both sides, which are compounding the issues!


----------



## emilynghiem

rhodescholar said:


> To the jew-hating dogshit, I'll ask the question again: when have the arab muslims EVER accepted the sovereign rights of non-muslims as equals in the mideast?



Good question and point rhodescholar 

Perhaps if we asked the PEOPLE, including human rights lawyers, teachers and students in these countries, and the clergy working for peace between people of all affiliations,
maybe we'd get a different answer and perception.  

If we keep basing public perception and policy on which "Muslim or Jewish" leaders shout the loudest, CLAIMING to represent the people, we get biased rhetoric.

Either way, if you ask Muslims in America, why do you think they flee those countries to come here? American govt is SUPPOSED to protect free exercise of religion and PREVENT establishment through govt.

The Middle East, and the spread of Islamic oppression through Africa and Europe, SHOWS what goes wrong when limits on govt AREN'T ENFORCED so that POLITICAL RELIGIONS can take over.

That's what I get from your point -- what Arab countries/govt have lived up to the democratic ideal of religious freedom and inclusion?

I blame the political structures of GOVT that don't have strong enough checks against ABUSES as the Constitution provides for in America. Once that is hijacked, then ANY religion *whether Jihadist or Zionist* can be abused to impose political dominance without check.

(Sadly rhodescholar we in America may be learning this same lesson the HARD WAY. By ALSO falling prey to POLITICAL RELIGIONS OR PARTIES imposing THEIR beliefs through govt and overriding Constitutional checks and balances put in place to PREVENT such abuses.

How can we criticize "political religious abusers" overseas and not criticize our own parties for similar "bullying and oppressive" tactics ??)


----------



## Lipush

emilynghiem said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the jew-hating dogshit, I'll ask the question again: when have the arab muslims EVER accepted the sovereign rights of non-muslims as equals in the mideast?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good question and point rhodescholar
> 
> Perhaps if we asked the PEOPLE, including human rights lawyers, teachers and students in these countries, and the clergy working for peace between people of all affiliations,
> maybe we'd get a different answer and perception.
> 
> If we keep basing public perception and policy on which "Muslim or Jewish" leaders shout the loudest, CLAIMING to represent the people, we get biased rhetoric.
> 
> Either way, if you ask Muslims in America, why do you think they flee those countries to come here? American govt is SUPPOSED to protect free exercise of religion and PREVENT establishment through govt.
> 
> The Middle East, and the spread of Islamic oppression through Africa and Europe, SHOWS what goes wrong when limits on govt AREN'T ENFORCED so that POLITICAL RELIGIONS can take over.
> 
> That's what I get from your point -- what Arab countries/govt have lived up to the democratic ideal of religious freedom and inclusion?
> 
> I blame the political structures of GOVT that don't have strong enough checks against ABUSES as the Constitution provides for in America. Once that is hijacked, then ANY religion *whether Jihadist or Zionist* can be abused to impose political dominance without check.
> 
> (Sadly rhodescholar we in America may be learning this same lesson the HARD WAY. By ALSO falling prey to POLITICAL RELIGIONS OR PARTIES imposing THEIR beliefs through govt and overriding Constitutional checks and balances put in place to PREVENT such abuses.
> 
> How can we criticize "political religious abusers" overseas and not criticize our own parties for similar "bullying and oppressive" tactics ??)
Click to expand...



They've asked and have all the answers.


----------



## rhodescholar

Humanity said:


> Another pointless post by you.... Congratulations! Did you actually deal with any question in the list? NO! Start your own thread for your dumb question dumbass and you might get some replies!!



Idiot asshole, the question is at the very core of the arab-Israel conflict as arab muslims simply do not tolerate the rights of non-muslims in the mideast, and frequently do not tolerate their EXISTENCE there.  Since that is the factual case, one state, ten states, 100 of them, a state solely for jews and one solely for arabs are all window dressing nonsense; there are NO scenarios where arab muslims will accept jews having their own sovereign state, nor will they tolerate them in the mideast for long as they are ethnically cleansing all other non-muslims out of the region.

The issue isn't you don't like the question or that you actually believe it is irrelevant; your issue is that you KNOW what I've written is accurate and that it totally destroys your idealistic dreamworld-solution where the arabs will tolerate the jews in some way - that it just needs to be "figured out", which deep down you and every other leftist fraud knows is utter garbage - you just lack the honesty and character to admit it.


----------



## rhodescholar

emilynghiem said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  I never lie, I present facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except when you get caught lying, which is quite often.  So is jewishvirtuallibrary an acceptable source this week, or is it next week?  Make up your mind, idiot asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  I dislike Islam more than you do,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure you do, which is why you post only anti-Israel lies/bile in this forum.  Fucking moron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is a repressive supremacist sect, like Judaism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is judaism repressive, retard since Western democracy is based upon christian-judeo principles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean who else represent themselves as the "chosen people" except maybe the Nazis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ALL groups of people believe they are unique or special, only c-nts like you spend hour after hour attacking jews for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3.  The Zionists have never given up land, they have returned some of the land they have stolen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Land held in defensive wars is not stolen, mongoloidal jackass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4.  The plain fact is that the Muslims and Christians were living in Palestine and European Zionists invaded and colonized the land and became their rulers through the force of British arms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Israeli jews have no issues with christians there - it was arab muslim fucking trash who urinated and desicrated the church of nativity, and have been expelling christians out of gaza and the rest of the mideast.
> 
> You are lying, unintelligent vermin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dear rhodescholar
> ideally, if Jewish/Christian/Muslim teachings were followed consistently all three would be in harmony under Biblical law and authority from the one God.
> 
> However, in reality that unity spiritually and politically is not seen in the mass chaos and majority who are at war. (Peaceful coexistence and cross-inclusion may be found among peaceful groups and followers, but not so much among the "more vocal visible and violent groups" we tend to see more of in the media)
> 
> Instead we see
> * extreme ZIONISTS who depart from Christianity and start worshipping Antichrist/Retribution and preaching ARMAGGEDDON or spiritual warfare
> * extreme JIHADISTS who depart from Muslim spiritual teachings
> and start worshipping JIHAD as SPIRITUAL WARFARE
> 
> So both the Christians will say NO, these "extreme Zionists CULTS" (eg Post-Millenial Dispensationalists, or some of the Aryan Nationalist CULTS) ARE NOT CHRISTIAN!
> 
> And the MUSLIMS will say NO, these "Jihadist TERRORISTS" are NOT REAL MUSLIM FOLLOWERS but a violent militant cult.
> 
> So both you and others have valid points when it comes to these complaints. I find there are mutual problems on both sides, which are compounding the issues!
Click to expand...


Your moral equvalency is ridiculous, and you are fundamentally wrong on several counts:

1) judaism and most christian sects endured significant reformations centuries ago, and renounced the violent portions of their sacred texts

2) muslims claim that the koran is straight from God's mouth - and cannot be altered, therefore no reformation of islam is possible

3) the sheer volume and mass number of muslim-directed attacks is strong proof that the terrorists and their supporters (many of such turds can be found in this section of the forum) are no minority or discredited small group.  Polls in muslim countries have consistently shown widespread support for terrorism.

You liberal idealists/dreamers are going to have reality brought to you REAL SOON by a muslim near you, MAYBE then you'll wake up to it.


----------



## rhodescholar

emilynghiem said:


> The Middle East, and the spread of Islamic oppression through Africa and Europe, SHOWS what goes wrong when limits on govt AREN'T ENFORCED so that POLITICAL RELIGIONS can take over.



You once again proceed from a false understanding of islam and its plan design; it and its practitioners do not consider it a "religion" as a Westerner might - it is a complete and total way of living from family to work to the government.  Akin to nazism, it is to guide its followers in all aspects of their existence, so its followers cannot separate or distinguish the spiritual from the governmental/authoritative components, they are all unified.

This is why, despite laughable claims by the clueless but possibly well-meaning dreamers like coyote that "muslims are made up of separate and distinct cultures" are utterly meaningless - had that mattered some of their countries from africa to the phillippines would have been closer to a Western democracy BUT NONE OF THEM ARE.  NOT ONE SINGLE MUSLIM COUNTRY even remotely resembles a Western democracy, none.


----------



## emilynghiem

rhodescholar said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Middle East, and the spread of Islamic oppression through Africa and Europe, SHOWS what goes wrong when limits on govt AREN'T ENFORCED so that POLITICAL RELIGIONS can take over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You once again proceed from a false understanding of islam and its plan design; it and its practitioners do not consider it a "religion" as a Westerner might - it is a complete and total way of living from family to work to the government.  Akin to nazism, it is to guide its followers in all aspects of their existence, so its followers cannot separate or distinguish the spiritual from the governmental/authoritative components, they are all unified.
> 
> This is why, despite laughable claims by the clueless but possibly well-meaning dreamers like coyote that "muslims are made up of separate and distinct cultures" are utterly meaningless - had that mattered some of their countries from africa to the phillippines would have been closer to a Western democracy BUT NONE OF THEM ARE.  NOT ONE SINGLE MUSLIM COUNTRY even remotely resembles a Western democracy, none.
Click to expand...


Hi rhodescholar I do not disagree with you AT ALL
that MANY fundamentalist followers and countries follow this political religion you describe. And I TOTALLY AGREE
with you that the liberal apologists in denial of this are part of the dangers and reason the genocide is going unchecked. It is VERY Dangerous  and YES this needs to be taken seriously!

This does NOT NEGATE at all the fact that MANY Muslims 
are like Christians, Buddhists, Hindus Atheists etc who respect CIVIL GOVT and AUTHORITY as law, and practice
their faith IN HARMONY with that.

These groups ALL exist.

It is NOT either/or.

You remind me of people arguing if all gays are unnatural sick
 people who  choose "aberrant behavior" or if all gays are naturally born that way and there is nothing wrong with them. And the reality is BOTH cases occur, so there is no reason to argue it's all one way or the other.

Just because there are naturally gay people and couples out there, DOES NOT EXCUSE OR DISCREDIT THE REALITY THAT SOME GAY PEOPLE ARE VERY SICK AND ABUSIVE TO THEMSELVES OR OTHERS.

Likewise, just because there are peaceful Muslims does not mean the Islamists and Jihadists are not a threat because they are


----------



## emilynghiem

BTW RE:


rhodescholar said:


> This is why, despite laughable claims by the clueless but possibly well-meaning dreamers like coyote that "muslims are made up of separate and distinct cultures" are utterly meaningless - had that mattered some of their countries from africa to the phillippines would have been closer to a Western democracy BUT NONE OF THEM ARE.  NOT ONE SINGLE MUSLIM COUNTRY even remotely resembles a Western democracy, none.


rhodescholar it isn't just because other countries are Muslim.

Can you name ONE other country like America that has BOTH the foundations based on Constitutionalism/natural laws
AND Judeo-Christian scriptural laws as the defining  CULTURAL traditions?

THAT's what gives us the advantage, it takes BOTH.
the church laws and the state laws to be in harmony
and checking and balancing each other.

It's not just Muslim/Arab cultures that don't have this,
but any and all other countries which suffer ABUSES of govt authority for lack of Constitutional limits checks balances and due process.

Look at China.

Can you blame their oppressive govt on Islam?
So the problem is bigger than that.

The problem is either
not checking church, state, or other "collective" authority
against abuse or oppression.

In America, both Christian and Constitutional practices teach forms of DUE PROCESS to redress grievances for sake of justice.

Name one country that has both of these traditions.
Besides America. And that explains the central role
that our country plays in political social and spiritual development.  We have freedom of speech and press
in order to PETITION for redress of grievances that other countries don't have. Arab, Muslim or not. 

That's our saving grace.


----------



## rhodescholar

emilynghiem said:


> Hi rhodescholar I do not disagree with you AT ALL



You lack sufficient information.



> that MANY fundamentalist followers and countries follow this political religion you describe.



I have posted time and time again here pew research polls showing widespread support - as much as 85% in Jordan - for terrorism and violence in the name of islam.  There is nothing in ANY non-muslim country that is even remotely comparable.



> This does NOT NEGATE at all the fact that MANY Muslims are like Christians, Buddhists, Hindus Atheists etc who respect CIVIL GOVT and AUTHORITY as law, and practice their faith IN HARMONY with that.



I did NOT say all or even 90%; I said VERY large numbers, in the hundreds of millions - which is supported by FACT.

Where Terrorism Finds Support in the Muslim World

There's a Worrisome Amount of Support in Jordan for the Islamic State


----------



## montelatici




----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> You
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom feeding idiot asshole, if you had any brains you'd STFU and let the adults talk.  Ignored.
Click to expand...


It's just unfortunate that you don't have the capacity to understand, you just prefer your 'racist' views and believe them LOL

You actually know NOTHING of Islam or of ANY Islamic country...

Go and meet real Muslims then come back for an adult conversation!

That's unless you are far too busy " Strafing Iranian RGs with my .50 Cal"


----------



## rhodescholar

emilynghiem said:


> Can you name ONE other country like America that has BOTH the foundations based on Constitutionalism/natural laws AND Judeo-Christian scriptural laws as the defining  CULTURAL traditions?



Israel is one, the Vatican, Ireland and Switzerland are others.

Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia

Religion in Switzerland - Wikipedia



> Look at China. Can you blame their oppressive govt on Islam? So the problem is bigger than that.



I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.



> We have freedom of speech and press in order to PETITION for redress of grievances that other countries don't have. Arab, Muslim or not.



Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.


----------



## montelatici

Switzerland is completely secular and so is Ireland. The Vatican is a special case. It's an absolute religious oligarchy. As usual Rhodes is full of crap.


----------



## Humanity

rhodescholar said:


> I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.



So, ALL Muslim countries are "repressive"?

How is the Maldives "repressive"?
How is Indonisia "repressive"?
How is Mayotte "repressive"?
How is Morocco "repressive"?
How is Malaysia "repressive"?

I shan't continue to embarrass you by continuing the extensive list of Muslim countries!!!


----------



## Coyote

rhodescholar said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religion alone doesn't mean a common culture nor does that reasoning give ANYONE a right to uproot a people and expell them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So that gives them a pass for their fucking shit behavior?
> 
> Tell that to the yazidis, coptics and maronites, who the arab muslims are slaughtering RIGHT NOW, or to the over 1 MM jews who were ethnically cleansed out of arab countries.  When the arab muslims start making amends for their horrible past and improving their current awful behavior, THEN I would be open to discussing the Israel situation.
> 
> Let me refine my earlier question: when have the arab muslims shown any tolerance for the sovereign rights of others in the mideast?
Click to expand...


No one is giving a "pass" for shitty behavior.  History is full of shitty behavior and we continue to see shitty behavior around the world, like Russia's lack of tolerance for the sovereign rights of others.

In regard to what is happening to the minority communities in Syria at the hands of ISIS - no one is giving them a free pass, including most of the Muslim world.  

In the meantime, you want to punish people living in Palestine today for the actions of other countries 60 years ago, before many of them were even born. I strongly oppose collective punishment.

As per your question: that's pretty broad - so what exactly do you mean by sovereign rights of others? Relations with other nations?


----------



## montelatici

rhodescholar said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you name ONE other country like America that has BOTH the foundations based on Constitutionalism/natural laws AND Judeo-Christian scriptural laws as the defining  CULTURAL traditions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel is one, the Vatican, Ireland and Switzerland are others.
> 
> Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia
> 
> Religion in Switzerland - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at China. Can you blame their oppressive govt on Islam? So the problem is bigger than that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have freedom of speech and press in order to PETITION for redress of grievances that other countries don't have. Arab, Muslim or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.
Click to expand...


The fifth amendment of the Irish constitution deleted two sections of the constitution that recognized the special position of the Catholic Church.  

The Swiss constitution does not mention any religion. It just states that:


*Article 15  Freedom of Faith and Conscience*
(1) The freedom of faith and conscience is guaranteed.
(2) Every person has the right to freely choose his or her religion or non-denominational belief and to profess them alone or in community with others.
(3) Every person has the right to join or belong to a religious community and to receive religious education.
(4) No person may be forced to join a religious community, to conduct a religious act or participate in religious education.

Go back to school.


----------



## Coyote

*ONCE AGAIN:  Please discuss the topic.  The topic is not religion.  Review Post #1 for enlightenment.*


----------



## montelatici

Coyote said:


> *ONCE AGAIN:  Please discuss the topic.  The topic is not religion.  Review Post #1 for enlightenment.*



The basis of a poster's assertion is a false premise. The premise is used to claim that there cannot be a one-state solution.  How can anyone rebut an assertion based on a false premise without addressing the false premise first?


----------



## Coyote

montelatici said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> *ONCE AGAIN:  Please discuss the topic.  The topic is not religion.  Review Post #1 for enlightenment.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The basis of a poster's assertion is a false premise. The premise is used to claim that there cannot be a one-state solution.  How can anyone rebut an assertion based on a false premise without addressing the false premise first?
Click to expand...


I wasn't aiming this specifically at you but at others as well.  The thread is starting to dive into a discussion of the merits of various religions and terrorism worldwide - none of which have to do with a one state solution and will end up derailing the thread in a predictable direction


----------



## montelatici

Ok.


----------



## emilynghiem

rhodescholar said:


> Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.



Hi rhodescholar And bTW I'm GLAD to meet you here where we can have this conversation that is very critical, politically and spiritually. Thank you for bringing this thread and topic to my attention.

YES, if you teach
Islam
Christianity
Constitutionalism
CORRECTLY as Universally INCLUSIVE principles,
these reflect what is called "God's laws" that are unchanging.

What is absolute truth, what will establish equal justice  and what will bring peace for ALL humanity INCLUSIVELY.

However, the teaching of Islam that IS universally inclusive and "eternal truth"  *teaches respect and peace* among
* Jews under the Torah
* Christians under Bible Scripture
* Muslims under the Quran
where Muslim adherence to Biblical Authority INCLUDES the same God and Jesus and prophets/teachings that CHRISTIANS obey,
INCLUDING the natural laws and CIVIL OBEDIENCE to Secular Authority that both Christians and Righteous Gentiles obey. This is in the Bible, so Muslims are bound by that authority as well.

So YES if you teach Islam correctly where it obeys ALL laws of both church and state given by God,
YES I AGREE THESE BY DEFINITION ARE ABSOLUTE, UNIVERSAL AND UNCHANGING.  Just like the "universal laws" reflected in Christianity when taught consistently, and in Constitutional laws based on natural laws for all humanity.

When you really do this, the compelling authority of God's will through Christ UNITES the secular under natural laws with the believers under scriptural authority in the spirit of Jesus or Universal/Equal Justice.

So the Muslim teaching of peace among Jews Christians and Muslims as People of the Book is  ALSO met and realized. There IS NO Jew or Gentile, but all are made one perfect and whole in Christ Jesus. Muslims included.

Totally agree.
But this does not negate the hellish reality we face now of anti-christian Jihadists and Armageddon fanatics waging war against the world thinking they are bringing God's will in the end times. You may call that "Islam" but That is NOT true submission in peace to the ideal will of God, though it is the sad history and reality of the human process and learning curve until we can establish true peace and justice the right way. Not by war but by establishing truth and justice democratically so there is consensus and peace, and not coercive politics trying to dominate the process for control.


----------



## emilynghiem

montelatici said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you name ONE other country like America that has BOTH the foundations based on Constitutionalism/natural laws AND Judeo-Christian scriptural laws as the defining  CULTURAL traditions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel is one, the Vatican, Ireland and Switzerland are others.
> 
> Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia
> 
> Religion in Switzerland - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at China. Can you blame their oppressive govt on Islam? So the problem is bigger than that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have freedom of speech and press in order to PETITION for redress of grievances that other countries don't have. Arab, Muslim or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fifth amendment of the Irish constitution deleted two sections of the constitution that recognized the special position of the Catholic Church.
> 
> The Swiss constitution does not mention any religion. It just states that:
> 
> 
> *Article 15  Freedom of Faith and Conscience*
> (1) The freedom of faith and conscience is guaranteed.
> (2) Every person has the right to freely choose his or her religion or non-denominational belief and to profess them alone or in community with others.
> (3) Every person has the right to join or belong to a religious community and to receive religious education.
> (4) No person may be forced to join a religious community, to conduct a religious act or participate in religious education.
> 
> Go back to school.
Click to expand...


Dear montelatici and rhodescholar:
For this concept of "religious freedom" which Constitutionalism is famous for, Islam teaches it as "there is no compulsion in religion" in the words of Mohammad.

If Jewish Christian and Muslim leaders can agree on religious freedom and no compulsion but all by free will,
is this enough to establish peace in the Middle East?

Shouldn't the process be for the leaders who CAN make peace to establish a peaceful good faith process *FIRST*,
THEN use that restored relationship to address and decide if a one state or two state solution is needed *SECOND*.

With the US there are 50 states but 1 union.
What will it take to establish similar respect and sovereignty for local states while maintaining peace and unity between them as ONE body?

Wouldn't the leadership of all 3 tribes need to be represented to bring about global peace on this level??


----------



## rhodescholar

emilynghiem said:


> And bTW I'm GLAD to meet you here where we can have this conversation that is very critical, politically and spiritually. Thank you for bringing this thread and topic to my attention.
> 
> YES, if you teach
> Islam
> Christianity
> Constitutionalism
> CORRECTLY as Universally INCLUSIVE principles,
> these reflect what is called "God's laws" that are unchanging.
> 
> What is absolute truth, what will establish equal justice  and what will bring peace for ALL humanity INCLUSIVELY.
> 
> However, the teaching of Islam that IS universally inclusive and "eternal truth"  *teaches respect and peace* among
> * Jews under the Torah
> * Christians under Bible Scripture
> * Muslims under the Quran
> where Muslim adherence to Biblical Authority INCLUDES the same God and Jesus and prophets/teachings that CHRISTIANS obey,
> INCLUDING the natural laws and CIVIL OBEDIENCE to Secular Authority that both Christians and Righteous Gentiles obey. This is in the Bible, so Muslims are bound by that authority as well.
> 
> So YES if you teach Islam correctly where it obeys ALL laws of both church and state given by God,
> YES I AGREE THESE BY DEFINITION ARE ABSOLUTE, UNIVERSAL AND UNCHANGING.  Just like the "universal laws" reflected in Christianity when taught consistently, and in Constitutional laws based on natural laws for all humanity.
> 
> When you really do this, the compelling authority of God's will through Christ UNITES the secular under natural laws with the believers under scriptural authority in the spirit of Jesus or Universal/Equal Justice.
> 
> So the Muslim teaching of peace among Jews Christians and Muslims as People of the Book is  ALSO met and realized. There IS NO Jew or Gentile, but all are made one perfect and whole in Christ Jesus. Muslims included.
> 
> Totally agree.
> But this does not negate the hellish reality we face now of anti-christian Jihadists and Armageddon fanatics waging war against the world thinking they are bringing God's will in the end times. You may call that "Islam" but That is NOT true submission in peace to the ideal will of God, though it is the sad history and reality of the human process and learning curve until we can establish true peace and justice the right way. Not by war but by establishing truth and justice democratically so there is consensus and peace, and not coercive politics trying to dominate the process for control.



You might want to read up on some of the hadiths that call for the death and complete destruction of jews and non-muslims.


----------



## rhodescholar

emilynghiem said:


> For this concept of "religious freedom" which Constitutionalism is famous for, Islam teaches it as "there is no compulsion in religion" in the words of Mohammad.
> 
> If Jewish Christian and Muslim leaders can agree on religious freedom and no compulsion but all by free will,
> is this enough to establish peace in the Middle East?
> 
> Shouldn't the process be for the leaders who CAN make peace to establish a peaceful good faith process *FIRST*,
> THEN use that restored relationship to address and decide if a one state or two state solution is needed *SECOND*.
> 
> With the US there are 50 states but 1 union.
> What will it take to establish similar respect and sovereignty for local states while maintaining peace and unity between them as ONE body?
> 
> Wouldn't the leadership of all 3 tribes need to be represented to bring about global peace on this level??



Muslim leaders, even in their own countries almost totally devoid of non-muslims, STILL do not allow for free speech or basic human/civil rights; what on earth makes you think they'd offer such rights to non-muslims when they themselves do not practice such rights, and polls show the majority do not even WANT such rights?


----------



## Shusha

emilynghiem said:


> What will it take to establish similar respect and sovereignty for local states while maintaining peace and unity between them as ONE body?



That is the large pink elephant sitting on the table, isn't it?  Care to take a stab at answering it?

What will it take, in a one state solution, for the Jewish people to feel that in a hundred years, the one state will still be Jewish in character?


----------



## montelatici

The one state will either be an Apartheid state self-proclaimed as Jewish, or a secular, non-theocratic, democratic, multi-cultural, multi-religious  state.  There is no way around it with the current population mix under Israeli Jew rule.


----------



## emilynghiem

rhodescholar said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> And bTW I'm GLAD to meet you here where we can have this conversation that is very critical, politically and spiritually. Thank you for bringing this thread and topic to my attention.
> 
> YES, if you teach
> Islam
> Christianity
> Constitutionalism
> CORRECTLY as Universally INCLUSIVE principles,
> these reflect what is called "God's laws" that are unchanging.
> 
> What is absolute truth, what will establish equal justice  and what will bring peace for ALL humanity INCLUSIVELY.
> 
> However, the teaching of Islam that IS universally inclusive and "eternal truth"  *teaches respect and peace* among
> * Jews under the Torah
> * Christians under Bible Scripture
> * Muslims under the Quran
> where Muslim adherence to Biblical Authority INCLUDES the same God and Jesus and prophets/teachings that CHRISTIANS obey,
> INCLUDING the natural laws and CIVIL OBEDIENCE to Secular Authority that both Christians and Righteous Gentiles obey. This is in the Bible, so Muslims are bound by that authority as well.
> 
> So YES if you teach Islam correctly where it obeys ALL laws of both church and state given by God,
> YES I AGREE THESE BY DEFINITION ARE ABSOLUTE, UNIVERSAL AND UNCHANGING.  Just like the "universal laws" reflected in Christianity when taught consistently, and in Constitutional laws based on natural laws for all humanity.
> 
> When you really do this, the compelling authority of God's will through Christ UNITES the secular under natural laws with the believers under scriptural authority in the spirit of Jesus or Universal/Equal Justice.
> 
> So the Muslim teaching of peace among Jews Christians and Muslims as People of the Book is  ALSO met and realized. There IS NO Jew or Gentile, but all are made one perfect and whole in Christ Jesus. Muslims included.
> 
> Totally agree.
> But this does not negate the hellish reality we face now of anti-christian Jihadists and Armageddon fanatics waging war against the world thinking they are bringing God's will in the end times. You may call that "Islam" but That is NOT true submission in peace to the ideal will of God, though it is the sad history and reality of the human process and learning curve until we can establish true peace and justice the right way. Not by war but by establishing truth and justice democratically so there is consensus and peace, and not coercive politics trying to dominate the process for control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to read up on some of the hadiths that call for the death and complete destruction of jews and non-muslims.
Click to expand...

Dear rhodescholar
1. First to answer your post
2. Second to tie it back to OP

1. Mohammad giving war and battle cried during religious war for turf is SEPARATE from spiritual teaching of peace for civilians in peacetime and secular society. I would compare Pres GW Bush who would teach and practice charity as a Christian in personal life but as Commander in Chief was in charge of military giving troops instructions to charge into houses and shoot to kill on the spot. no due process was followed as in civil law and peacetime because this was during wartime. It is legal constitutionally for soldiers to kill the enemy combatants without due process to prove guilt first, but not legal for citizens to do this in society.

2. Since Mohammad was both a political military leader during wartime and a spiritual teacher and leader during peacetime, these must not be taken out of context. Or it becomes as illegal and criminal as people taking up arms and declaring war on govt and killing innocent civilians. That's NOT the same context as US soldiers taking up arms and following orders to kill the enemy.

2. Now to tie this back to working out a one state or two state solution, the issue is when Jihadists Islamists Zionists or other fundamentalists  take their political religion and impose it through the state. That's why we inevitably include this discussion of where the religion stops and the secular state begins .

I can see the different factions under a unified umbrella if there is agreement on the principles and policies in common. For example, if all leaders/states agree to put a central "Constitutional " authority first, which then protects the free exercise of each religion underneath that umbrella, tjs might work. 

Spiritually if all the leaders of each tribe agrees to put god first and come together as equals in Christ, that might work as the unifying glue which still allows full exercise and expression of diversity of each person and group. 

So that's why I brought up the universal principles as the backbone needed to pull together and support all the factions as one body without losing individual autonomy and identity.

That cohesion is needed first.
Then the people can work out plans second. These are too sensitive and involved to decide in a hostile environment of distrust and undermining each other to dominate the decision process. First find the leaders who can collaborate in peace . then the right plans will follow from there!


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> ... or a secular, non-theocratic, democratic, multi-cultural, multi-religious  state ...



Fine.  How do we get there from here?  What steps need to be taken?  How are you going to guarantee that the state remains this way?


----------



## Shusha

emilynghiem said:


> Spiritually if all the leaders of each tribe agrees to put god first and come together as equals in Christ, that might work as the unifying glue which still allows full exercise and expression of diversity of each person and group.



Somehow, I don't think expecting the Jewish people to come together "in X" is going to be the best idea.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Spiritually if all the leaders of each tribe agrees to put god first and come together as equals in Christ, that might work as the unifying glue which still allows full exercise and expression of diversity of each person and group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Somehow, I don't think expecting the Jewish people to come together "in X" is going to be the best idea.
Click to expand...


Sometimes I actually like Shusha. LOL


----------



## Shusha

Okay, I finally found something that we can use, since no one else wants to weigh in on what an actual one state solution looks like.  This:

The United States of Israel and Palestine

Two, independent, self-governing states (little s) under one big Federal State (big S).  


loosely based on 1949 lines with some and limited land swaps -- the intent being that both states be quite mixed in population
each state is entirely independent and self-governed
further, each municipality is to be relatively autonomous within each state
Parliament is 50/50 regardless of population size
legislation requires 55% plus to pass
Jerusalem is one united, municipality
borders are completely open (as state lines in the US)
people are free to travel as necessary and desired, but have permanent residency in one state or the other
Economy is entirely free with same rules and no restrictions for all
All people of either Jewish or Palestinian descent anywhere in the world are free to immigrate to any place in the State (with a five year residency requirement) and within certain limitations of not overwhelming either state with large population increases nor to upset the ethnic balance, initially, in each state
protection from violence and incitement is paramount and will be maintained by the Federal Government
Each state government takes on a special responsibility to protect its minorities
Every citizen of either state will have full access and rights to education, health care, etc with no discrimination
Each state will have the ability to enact laws.  
States (little s) may place family law under the jurisdiction of religious courts, but all citizens must have the ability to opt-out of religious courts and have secular options under the Federal law


Can anyone give me a reason why this wouldn't be workable?  (Besides requiring the will to do it?)


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> Okay, I finally found something that we can use, since no one else wants to weigh in on what an actual one state solution looks like.  This:
> 
> The United States of Israel and Palestine
> 
> Two, independent, self-governing states (little s) under one big Federal State (big S).
> 
> 
> loosely based on 1949 lines with some and limited land swaps -- the intent being that both states be quite mixed in population
> each state is entirely independent and self-governed
> further, each municipality is to be relatively autonomous within each state
> Parliament is 50/50 regardless of population size
> legislation requires 55% plus to pass
> Jerusalem is one united, municipality
> borders are completely open (as state lines in the US)
> people are free to travel as necessary and desired, but have permanent residency in one state or the other
> Economy is entirely free with same rules and no restrictions for all
> All people of either Jewish or Palestinian descent anywhere in the world are free to immigrate to any place in the State (with a five year residency requirement) and within certain limitations of not overwhelming either state with large population increases nor to upset the ethnic balance, initially, in each state
> protection from violence and incitement is paramount and will be maintained by the Federal Government
> Each state government takes on a special responsibility to protect its minorities
> Every citizen of either state will have full access and rights to education, health care, etc with no discrimination
> Each state will have the ability to enact laws.
> States (little s) may place family law under the jurisdiction of religious courts, but all citizens must have the ability to opt-out of religious courts and have secular options under the Federal law
> 
> 
> Can anyone give me a reason why this wouldn't be workable?  (Besides requiring the will to do it?)



I would say that it would be a fair compromise.  I would require that people of either state be eligible to use the public healthcare and public education available anywhere within the State.  And, that the State military be integrated.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> I would say that it would be a fair compromise.  I would require that people of either state be eligible to use the public healthcare and public education available anywhere within the State.  And, that the State military be integrated.



Would you require that people normally access education and healthcare within their own state?  If not, how would you compensate the states which provided health and education to non-residents?  Or would you make that a federal jurisdiction?


----------



## teddyearp

Shusha said:


> Parliament is 50/50 regardless of population size


Most of your idea looks good on paper, I just wanted to address this one in particular. How would this work with elections?

I think if a 'United States of Israel and Palestine' is created as you propose, then it well may have to have two legislative bodies like the USA to keep elections fair.

And as long as Israel gets twice as many Senators as the Palestinians, I'm all for it, LOL!!!! I am kidding. I still think that the main problem with a one state solution is the possibility of an eventual loss of the Jews' national home.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that it would be a fair compromise.  I would require that people of either state be eligible to use the public healthcare and public education available anywhere within the State.  And, that the State military be integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you require that people normally access education and healthcare within their own state?  If not, how would you compensate the states which provided health and education to non-residents?  Or would you make that a federal jurisdiction?
Click to expand...


I would keep it state, but allow the users to come from anywhere.   It tends to force the bad systems to improve or they lose money, which is allotted based on the number of users.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that it would be a fair compromise.  I would require that people of either state be eligible to use the public healthcare and public education available anywhere within the State.  And, that the State military be integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you require that people normally access education and healthcare within their own state?  If not, how would you compensate the states which provided health and education to non-residents?  Or would you make that a federal jurisdiction?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would keep it state, but allow the users to come from anywhere.   It tends to force the bad systems to improve or they lose money, which is allotted based on the number of users.
Click to expand...


I think I gotcha.  So if a resident goes out of state for education or health, the state of origin has to compensate state of service for service, yes?


----------



## Shusha

teddyearp said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parliament is 50/50 regardless of population size
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of your idea looks good on paper, I just wanted to address this one in particular. How would this work with elections?
> 
> I think if a 'United States of Israel and Palestine' is created as you propose, then it well may have to have two legislative bodies like the USA to keep elections fair.
> 
> And as long as Israel gets twice as many Senators as the Palestinians, I'm all for it, LOL!!!! I am kidding. I still think that the main problem with a one state solution is the possibility of an eventual loss of the Jews' national home.
Click to expand...


My understanding is that all state residents would vote one man one vote for state elections.  And each state would get to elect 50% of the Federal government slots.  The issue I see with that is eventually, depending on demographics, you could end up with an Arab/Jew bias in the Federal Government.  It would be better, possibly?, to have a 50/50 Jew/Arab mix regardless of state?  Then you might end up with a state bias?  Tough call.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that it would be a fair compromise.  I would require that people of either state be eligible to use the public healthcare and public education available anywhere within the State.  And, that the State military be integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you require that people normally access education and healthcare within their own state?  If not, how would you compensate the states which provided health and education to non-residents?  Or would you make that a federal jurisdiction?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would keep it state, but allow the users to come from anywhere.   It tends to force the bad systems to improve or they lose money, which is allotted based on the number of users.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think I gotcha.  So if a resident goes out of state for education or health, the state of origin has to compensate state of service for service, yes?
Click to expand...


No, I am thinking that the services are State funded through State taxation and money is given to the state or other administrations based on a formula of some sort, mainly based on users, and the administrations are tasked with managing the service. If the service doesn't attract users it doesn't get as much money.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that it would be a fair compromise.  I would require that people of either state be eligible to use the public healthcare and public education available anywhere within the State.  And, that the State military be integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you require that people normally access education and healthcare within their own state?  If not, how would you compensate the states which provided health and education to non-residents?  Or would you make that a federal jurisdiction?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would keep it state, but allow the users to come from anywhere.   It tends to force the bad systems to improve or they lose money, which is allotted based on the number of users.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think I gotcha.  So if a resident goes out of state for education or health, the state of origin has to compensate state of service for service, yes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am thinking that the services are State funded through State taxation and money is given to the state or other administrations based on a formula of some sort, mainly based on users, and the administrations are tasked with managing the service. If the service doesn't attract users it doesn't get as much money.
Click to expand...


Ah.  Okay.  So all schools and health facilities are State funded but paid based on usage by residents from either state.  I'm okay with that.  No reason not to play to strengths if that works out.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that it would be a fair compromise.  I would require that people of either state be eligible to use the public healthcare and public education available anywhere within the State.  And, that the State military be integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you require that people normally access education and healthcare within their own state?  If not, how would you compensate the states which provided health and education to non-residents?  Or would you make that a federal jurisdiction?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would keep it state, but allow the users to come from anywhere.   It tends to force the bad systems to improve or they lose money, which is allotted based on the number of users.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think I gotcha.  So if a resident goes out of state for education or health, the state of origin has to compensate state of service for service, yes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am thinking that the services are State funded through State taxation and money is given to the state or other administrations based on a formula of some sort, mainly based on users, and the administrations are tasked with managing the service. If the service doesn't attract users it doesn't get as much money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah.  Okay.  So all schools and health facilities are State funded but paid based on usage by residents from either state.  I'm okay with that.  No reason not to play to strengths if that works out.
Click to expand...


It will tend to integrate the people too, as a side benefit.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> It will tend to integrate the people too, as a side benefit.



The whole point is respectful integration with enough caution for psychological safety and security.


----------



## rhodescholar

Shusha said:


> Okay, I finally found something that we can use, since no one else wants to weigh in on what an actual one state solution looks like.  This:
> 
> The United States of Israel and Palestine
> 
> Two, independent, self-governing states (little s) under one big Federal State (big S).
> 
> 
> loosely based on 1949 lines with some and limited land swaps -- the intent being that both states be quite mixed in population
> each state is entirely independent and self-governed
> further, each municipality is to be relatively autonomous within each state
> Parliament is 50/50 regardless of population size
> legislation requires 55% plus to pass
> Jerusalem is one united, municipality
> borders are completely open (as state lines in the US)
> people are free to travel as necessary and desired, but have permanent residency in one state or the other
> Economy is entirely free with same rules and no restrictions for all
> All people of either Jewish or Palestinian descent anywhere in the world are free to immigrate to any place in the State (with a five year residency requirement) and within certain limitations of not overwhelming either state with large population increases nor to upset the ethnic balance, initially, in each state
> protection from violence and incitement is paramount and will be maintained by the Federal Government
> Each state government takes on a special responsibility to protect its minorities
> Every citizen of either state will have full access and rights to education, health care, etc with no discrimination
> Each state will have the ability to enact laws.
> States (little s) may place family law under the jurisdiction of religious courts, but all citizens must have the ability to opt-out of religious courts and have secular options under the Federal law
> Can anyone give me a reason why this wouldn't be workable?  (Besides requiring the will to do it?)



Unless the arab muslims endure a 180-degree mental cleansing, they will NEVER tolerate the rights of others as equals, only as second-class dhimmis who they will eventually subjugate.

It is frustrating to see the ignorance of current generations; all of this crap was tried in other places before with arab muslims and IT NEVER WORKED.

I'd recommend to this poster and others here proposing what is not even remotely an option, to go back and read up on the history of Lebanon from the 1930s forward, when large numbers of muslims began immigrating into the country.  The christian leadership thought as you idealistic dreamers thought; that muslims were "just good people" who would gladly accept power-sharing amongst the groups, but of course, as the arab muslims do everywhere they go - they multiplied until they overwhelmed the non-muslims using violence to take over the country.

No sane leader / student of history would EVER accept a situation where muslims could conceivably reach a threshold of authority, it would mean the subjugation of all other non-muslims, as it has every other place on earth for 14 centuries.  

All of the idealistic dreaming will not change this fact, nor will it compel muslims to civilize and accept others as equals, it would be a direct violation of their core beliefs.


----------



## rhodescholar

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> It will tend to integrate the people too, as a side benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The whole point is respectful integration with enough caution for psychological safety and security.
Click to expand...


Uh, yeah ok.  And when the arab muslims start terrorizing the jews as they've always done, blowing up synagogues and mass slaughtering people, killing hundreds or thousands at a time destroying your little science experiment, then what?  Will you mail apology letters to the families of the dead, saying "sorry, we were just testing things out"?

This whole thread is fucking nonsense, especially since no one has mentioned the 800lb gorilla in the room - iran.  As long as that cancerous regime exists, no concept of peace is even remotely possible between the arabs and jews, as that turd regime is FAR too dependent upon it.

Along those lines, what do you dreamers think hezbollah and hamas will do, simply lay down their arms caches and move to mars?


----------



## montelatici

rhodescholar said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> It will tend to integrate the people too, as a side benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The whole point is respectful integration with enough caution for psychological safety and security.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uh, yeah ok.  And when the arab muslims start terrorizing the jews as they've always done, blowing up synagogues and mass slaughtering people, killing hundreds or thousands at a time destroying your little science experiment, then what?  Will you mail apology letters to the families of the dead, saying "sorry, we were just testing things out"?
> 
> This whole thread is fucking nonsense, especially since no one has mentioned the 800lb gorilla in the room - iran.  As long as that cancerous regime exists, no concept of peace is even remotely possible between the arabs and jews, as that turd regime is FAR too dependent upon it.
> 
> Along those lines, what do you dreamers think hezbollah and hamas will do, simply lay down their arms caches and move to mars?
Click to expand...


Until recently, the Muslims and the Jews "terrorized" Christians in many places where there was Muslim rule over Christians, e.g. Al Andalus (Spain), Sicily etc.  Conversely, Christians "terrorized" Muslims and Jews when they got the upper hand.  

Iran would have little influence if there were a peaceful arrangement between Jews and Palestinians.  The Muslim Palestinians (Sunnis) have no love for Shiite Iran, and the Christian Palestinians, many of whom would probably return, could also care less about Iran.

Without popular support Hamas would disappear so they would have to do an IRA and become a political party only.

Hezbollah exists because of the threat of another Israeli invasion of Lebanon. The Shiite suffered the most when Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon as they inhabit southern Lebanon. Without that threat Hezbollah would not have a raison d'etre.  What some don't understand is the Shiites in Lebanon, pre-Hezbollah, were the downtrodden of Lebanon, with the Sunnis, Christians and Druze the movers and shakers although the Shiite population was at least a third of the population, if not more.


----------



## Shusha

rhodescholar 

Do I think the Arab Muslim Palestinians are capable of this kind of thinking yet?!   Not by a long shot.  

Just because we can't get to that place yet, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the end goal.  It would be like failing to teach a basketball team how to score.


----------



## Shusha

So, let's talk about how the ideology (of both sides) needs to change in order to bring about this ending.


----------



## montelatici

The Palestinians have to accept that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens in the "Palestinian" state.  Jews will have to agree that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens of the "Jewish" state.  The Palestinians have to respect that the Jewish state can call itself whatever it wants, e.g. Israel, and the Jews have to accept that the Palestinian state can call itself anything it wants, e.g. Palestine.  

All confessions will have to agree that the State will have to be a secular state with no religion favored or named. They can run an internet contest to see what the State will be called.  Kind of like Switzerland where its official name is the Helvetic Confederation and the cantons have their own names.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> rhodescholar
> 
> Do I think the Arab Muslim Palestinians are capable of this kind of thinking yet?!   Not by a long shot.
> 
> Just because we can't get to that place yet, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the end goal.  It would be like failing to teach a basketball team how to score.



This is a really positive thread going on here, mostly... Well except those who think they can strafe RG's ;-)

I wouldn't rule out a one state solution but, like Teddy, I do think that Israel NOT being a 'Jewish homeland' would be a BIG issue!

Netanyahu and co would NEVER consider that UNLESS Israel had full control of the state, at least... Which of course, is then a problem for the Palestinians...

One state COULD work... However, I really don't see EITHER side agreeing to it!


----------



## P F Tinmore

One of the most important things would be a solid constitution. Palestine already has that. Of course some modification of Title One would be necessary. The rest can go the way it is.

2003 Amended Basic Law

The best part would be that nobody would have to move from their current location. 

One thing that must be avoided is what happened in south Africa. Political apartheid was dismantled but economic apartheid remained. The whites still owned everything.

Reclaiming property with compensation for damage and loss of past use would be required.


----------



## rhodescholar

P F Tinmore said:


> Reclaiming property with compensation for damage and loss of past use would be required.



When are the 1 MM ethnically cleansed jews from arab muslim countries going to get their stolen land and property compensated for, scumbag?


----------



## P F Tinmore

rhodescholar said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reclaiming property with compensation for damage and loss of past use would be required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When are the 1 MM ethnically cleansed jews from arab muslim countries going to get their stolen land and property compensated for, scumbag?
Click to expand...

Where is their right to return organization? I'll get on board.


----------



## Coyote

*Thread has been cleaned YET AGAIN.  As a result, 3 members have been thread banned.  Any further violations will result in warnings, infractions or thread bans.*


----------



## teddyearp

rhodescholar said:


> Unless the arab muslims endure a 180-degree mental cleansing, they will NEVER tolerate the rights of others as equals, only as second-class dhimmis who they will eventually subjugate.<snip>
> 
> No sane leader / student of history would EVER accept a situation where muslims could conceivably reach a threshold of authority, it would mean the subjugation of all other non-muslims, as it has every other place on earth for 14 centuries.
> 
> All of the idealistic dreaming will not change this fact, nor will it compel muslims to civilize and accept others as equals, it would be a direct violation of their core beliefs.


While I realize that most of rhodes' post could be considered 'sabre rattling', he does make a pretty fair point as to the history. What would or could stop the 'radicalizing' elements of Islam from making a power play like they have done and are doing in other majority Muslim countries around the world.  Or even in majority Muslim communities within other countries around the world.

I do agree with what Shusha posted in #257, I do not see the rank and file Arab Muslim Palestinians going this way now, but nobody can deny that there are already 'radicalized' elements in the West Bank and let's not even mention Gaza, we know that it is ruled by a radicalized element. Although some call it an 'occupation' of the West Bank by Israel because of their various security forces, both covert and overt, it well may be said that this has been one thing keeping the radicalized element in check there.

A very tough call for sure. And it could even apply to a two state solution, however, I still think the two/three state is better than a one state for all the reasons I have already posted. Mainly if they are their own state and continue to wage war, then there would be no holds barred as to war like retaliation.


----------



## teddyearp

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians have to accept that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens in the "Palestinian" state.  Jews will have to agree that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens of the "Jewish" state.  The Palestinians have to respect that the Jewish state can call itself whatever it wants, e.g. Israel, and the Jews have to accept that the Palestinian state can call itself anything it wants, e.g. Palestine.
> 
> All confessions will have to agree that the State will have to be a secular state with no religion favored or named. They can run an internet contest to see what the State will be called.  Kind of like Switzerland where its official name is the Helvetic Confederation and the cantons have their own names.


We all know what and where you really are going with this.  Just want to point out that for the most part, the only religion that the Palestinians really accept is Islam. As they currently state, they want no Jews in the West Bank at all, and they have been making Christians unwelcome for years and years.  Example: the Church of the Nativity has minarets on it, or at least right in manger square.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians have to accept that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens in the "Palestinian" state.  Jews will have to agree that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens of the "Jewish" state.



It seems to me the Jewish people have already demonstrated their ability to do so.  It seems to me the Arabs have decidedly demonstrated they not only lack the capacity to do so -- they lack the will to do so.


----------



## teddyearp

Shusha said:


> It seems to me the Jewish people have already demonstrated their ability to do so.  It seems to me the Arabs have decidedly demonstrated they not only lack the capacity to do so -- they lack the will to do so.


Thank you, that is also where I was going in #266.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> I wouldn't rule out a one state solution but, like Teddy, I do think that Israel NOT being a 'Jewish homeland' would be a BIG issue!
> 
> Netanyahu and co would NEVER consider that UNLESS Israel had full control of the state, at least... Which of course, is then a problem for the Palestinians...
> 
> One state COULD work... However, I really don't see EITHER side agreeing to it!




We agree.  So, let's discuss WHY solution (whether two states in one State or two States) unlikely to happen at this point.  What is stopping people?

The Jewish people are afraid of losing their identity, their history, their culture, their sovereignty, their self-determination and MOST importantly, their safety.  They fear that they will be giving up a sense of safety and security which has been lost to them for 3000 thousand years and finally regained.  

Someone might have to help me out with the Palestinians here.  I want to say that the Arab and especially the Muslim Palestinians are not willing to share power with another peoples.


----------



## Shusha

teddyearp said:


> I do agree with what Shusha posted in #257, I do not see the rank and file Arab Muslim Palestinians going this way now, but nobody can deny that there are already 'radicalized' elements in the West Bank and let's not even mention Gaza, we know that it is ruled by a radicalized element. Although some call it an 'occupation' of the West Bank by Israel because of their various security forces, bot covert and overt, it well may be said that this has been one thing keeping the radicalized element in check there.



This is the problem.  In any sort of changed scenario where we imagine an end to the conflict -- it tends to assume a neat little bubble.  The radicalized elements are NOT being defeated at this time.  On the contrary, they are growing stronger everywhere.  So any plan for "peace" absolutely MUST include a way of dealing with this radicalized element.  The BIG question is whether Arab Palestine, as a whole, is going to go the way of the radicals (as Gaza) or not.  The corollary is whether or not peace with Israel, and an increased influence of moderate Israeli thought is capable of turning Arab Palestine into an ally.  And whether or not it can be done in time.


----------



## Shusha

teddyearp said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians have to accept that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens in the "Palestinian" state.  Jews will have to agree that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens of the "Jewish" state.  The Palestinians have to respect that the Jewish state can call itself whatever it wants, e.g. Israel, and the Jews have to accept that the Palestinian state can call itself anything it wants, e.g. Palestine.
> 
> All confessions will have to agree that the State will have to be a secular state with no religion favored or named. They can run an internet contest to see what the State will be called.  Kind of like Switzerland where its official name is the Helvetic Confederation and the cantons have their own names.
> 
> 
> 
> We all know what and where you really are going with this.  Just want to point out that for the most part, the only religion that the Palestinians really accept is Islam. As they currently state, they want no Jews in the West Bank at all, and they have been making Christians unwelcome for years and years.  Example: the Church of the Nativity has minarets on it, or at least right in manger square.
Click to expand...


As evidence, why isn't everyone permitted to pray on the Temple Mount/Haram al Sharif?  (and don't be telling me its Israel that is guiding that -- we all know that Israel is deliberately discriminating against the Jewish people to appease Muslims and their violence).


----------



## teddyearp

Shusha said:


> This is the problem.  In any sort of changed scenario where we imagine an end to the conflict -- it tends to assume a neat little bubble.  The radicalized elements are NOT being defeated at this time.  On the contrary, they are growing stronger everywhere.  So any plan for "peace" absolutely MUST include a way of dealing with this radicalized element.  The BIG question is whether Arab Palestine, as a whole, is going to go the way of the radicals (as Gaza) or not.  The corollary is whether or not peace with Israel, and an increased influence of moderate Israeli thought is capable of turning Arab Palestine into an ally.  And whether or not it can be done in time.


Very well written.  And by writing it, I believe you also see the futility in creating a one state.  You are not seeing it and/or admitting it yet in this thread, but the two/three state solution is the only one that works, for the reasons I have posted now several times.

I'll not spam the board, lol.


----------



## Coyote

I see a one-state solution as unattainable because of the length and depth of the dispute.  Neither people's have any trust in the other or the motives of the other, an when you look at public opinion polls that is evident.  If you don't have trust how can you build a nation together?

The two sides have been separated so long they no longer know each as people or individuals.

We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.

There is also yet another gorilla in the room:  genocide.  How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them?  That's a hard sell.


----------



## Shusha

teddyearp said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the problem.  In any sort of changed scenario where we imagine an end to the conflict -- it tends to assume a neat little bubble.  The radicalized elements are NOT being defeated at this time.  On the contrary, they are growing stronger everywhere.  So any plan for "peace" absolutely MUST include a way of dealing with this radicalized element.  The BIG question is whether Arab Palestine, as a whole, is going to go the way of the radicals (as Gaza) or not.  The corollary is whether or not peace with Israel, and an increased influence of moderate Israeli thought is capable of turning Arab Palestine into an ally.  And whether or not it can be done in time.
> 
> 
> 
> Very well written.  And by writing it, I believe you also see the futility in creating a one state.  You are not seeing it and/or admitting it yet in this thread, but the two/three state solution is the only one that works, for the reasons I have posted now several times.
> 
> I'll not spam the board, lol.
Click to expand...


Lol.  Spam is measured in quality and not in quantity.  You could write a 100 posts and they wouldn't be spam.  

I also see the futility of a one state solution.  If that is not clear in my posts, I apologize.  To be clear -- I believe the one state "solution" is a thinly disguised attempt to find a moral excuse for denying the rights of the Jewish people to a homeland and then destroying that homeland.  The whole purpose of me starting this thread is not to point out the viability of the one state "solution" but to demonstrate how utterly unrealistic it is to try to create a state which meets the needs of the Jewish people while also bowing to the Arab Muslim narrative that it is their land and ONLY their land.  It simply will not work.  

Notice that the "one state solution" I posted yesterday is really just a variation of the two state solution which makes it slightly more palatable but actually permits overall Jewish and moderate control over the entire territory with respect to security in exchange for economic and other advantages for the Arab peoples.  

But either, way, the only way through this is for the Arab Muslim Palestinians to change their fundamental ideology.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.
> 
> There is also yet another gorilla in the room:  genocide.  How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them?  That's a hard sell.



I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second.  The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal.  But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others.  The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't rule out a one state solution but, like Teddy, I do think that Israel NOT being a 'Jewish homeland' would be a BIG issue!
> 
> Netanyahu and co would NEVER consider that UNLESS Israel had full control of the state, at least... Which of course, is then a problem for the Palestinians...
> 
> One state COULD work... However, I really don't see EITHER side agreeing to it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.  So, let's discuss WHY solution (whether two states in one State or two States) unlikely to happen at this point.  What is stopping people?
> 
> The Jewish people are afraid of losing their identity, their history, their culture, their sovereignty, their self-determination and MOST importantly, their safety.  They fear that they will be giving up a sense of safety and security which has been lost to them for 3000 thousand years and finally regained.
> 
> Someone might have to help me out with the Palestinians here.  I want to say that the Arab and especially the Muslim Palestinians are not willing to share power with another peoples.
Click to expand...


I'm loving that this thread, mostly, is drawing positive ideas from both sides...

Yes, we agree... I believe that MOST of us, pro Israel, pro Palestine agree... In principle... But there are 'reservations' on both sides...

The Jewish people paragraph... 

You see, and I am so NOT anti Jewish... Quite the opposite... As I too am afraid that the Jewish people will lose 'something' in a one state solution... But, please, and I don't want the usual BS arguments about Palestine or Palestinians... But they TOO stand to lose 'something' in a one state solution...

So, in the same way that Jews don't hold much 'faith' in a peaceful Hamas, I don't hold much 'faith' in a peaceful Israel...

I know that I will receive the usual 'anti semite' chants, but, really, I do not have much belief in Israel being 'happy' with a divided 'territory'... I do still hold a strong belief that Israel would do unto the Palestinians as Hamas would do unto Israel...

That is why I believe that Hamas, in particular, should change their stance on Israel, amend their charter and look forward to free elections... Furthermore, their acceptance of the existence of Israel...

Jewish safety, Palestinian safety MUST be paramount in any negotiations! Right now, I do not see the safety of EITHER being even close to the top of the list!

Palestinians DO need external assistance in achieving their goals, that is for sure... But, as the 'weaker' group within the area, they also need reassurance and protection... I do NOT see Israel being that keen, either, on a power sharing agreement...

It's unfortunate that, IMHO, I would/could see Israel pushing Palestine into the sea... Yes, as is believed, Hamas would do the same to Israel... Neither a good solution!

A 'One State Solution' simply does NOT do it for me...

Guess what, not because of my feelings for the Palestinians but my feelings for the Jews... Persecution of the 'Jew' needs to end ... As does the persecution of, in the case, 'Palestinian'...

I get sick and tired of the constant rhetoric that is banded about freely here and elsewhere, I could give a flying fuck about who was first, last etc... I just want to look forward NOT back!

Hey, I could be the ruler of a country I have NEVER visited simply because I traced my ancestry back through the centuries and discovered that I have a 'right', through my ancestors, to live there and, quite possibly RULE there... The reality is, why on earth would I bother?

My understanding and belief is that both Jew and Palestinian have quite extensive history in the region... That both Jew and Palestinian are 'brothers' who just chose to believe in different things...

Not one has more right than the other to live there...

When you want to confuse religion with politics with indigenous people, then you start creating all sorts of imaginary issues...

Hey, I am a Brit, My 'religion' is C of E... Historically, I was RC, Henry VIII changed that for me! My chosen 'religion' is a mix of what WORKS for me with a good smattering of belief in everyone!

Give Jews their homeland and allow Palestinians to have THEIR homeland...

Simple isn't it ;-)


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.
> 
> There is also yet another gorilla in the room:  genocide.  How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them?  That's a hard sell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second.  The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal. * But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others.*  The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.
Click to expand...


I would disagree here, based on opinion polls (it isn't a choice as you outline): October 2012 Yisraela Goldblum Fund poll - Wikipedia


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.
> 
> There is also yet another gorilla in the room:  genocide.  How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them?  That's a hard sell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second.  The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal. * But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others.*  The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would disagree here, based on opinion polls (it isn't a choice as you outline): October 2012 Yisraela Goldblum Fund poll - Wikipedia
Click to expand...


But the reasons behind those opinions are directly related to an expectation of loss of Jewish control over Israel.  Israelis don't fundamentally believe Arabs have no right to vote.  They FEAR that a right to vote will lead to a loss of Jewish voice.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.
> 
> There is also yet another gorilla in the room:  genocide.  How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them?  That's a hard sell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second.  The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal. * But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others.*  The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would disagree here, based on opinion polls (it isn't a choice as you outline): October 2012 Yisraela Goldblum Fund poll - Wikipedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But the reasons behind those opinions are directly related to an expectation of loss of Jewish control over Israel.  Israelis don't fundamentally believe Arabs have no right to vote.  They FEAR that a right to vote will lead to a loss of Jewish voice.
Click to expand...


I'm not so sure about that...I think it's splitting hairs.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.

Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.



How so?


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.
> 
> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.


What does that mean?


----------



## José

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...




Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.
> 
> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.
> 
> 
> 
> What does that mean?
Click to expand...


*Shusha's Plan*



> Originally posted by *Shusha*
> people are free to travel as necessary and desired, but have permanent residency in one state or the other



A "delicate" way to say the new state would continue to impose the forced exile on millions of palestinians.



> Originally posted by *Shusha*
> All people of either Jewish or Palestinian descent anywhere in the world are free to immigrate to any place in the State (with a five year residency requirement) and within certain limitations of not overwhelming either state with large population increases nor to upset the ethnic balance, initially, in each state



More "delicate" manners to say the jewish supremacism would continue to be enforced with the addition of the word *INITIALLY* to sweeten the pill and make it more pallatable in order to induce  people like Montelatici to jump on the bandwagon and call it "a fair plan".


----------



## P F Tinmore

montelatici said:


> Without popular support Hamas would disappear so they would have to do an IRA and become a political party only.


Excellent point.

It would apply to more than Hamas. Virtually all of the parties from both sides were created out of conflict. If conflict turns to peace, none of these parties will have a reason to be. Extremism would find little support in future elections.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without popular support Hamas would disappear so they would have to do an IRA and become a political party only.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point.
> 
> It would apply to more than Hamas. Virtually all of the parties from both sides were created out of conflict. If conflict turns to peace, none of these parties will have a reason to be. Extremism would find little support in future elections.
Click to expand...


That's quite the slathering bit of apologetics for Islamic terrorists. 

Much of the conflict in the Islamist Middle East has everything to do with conflict _created_ by Islamic terrorists pressing their particular agenda. Islamist ideology is about imposing Islamism.

• Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." —Sahih Bukhari, V1B2N24
• He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the unbelievers hate it. —Qur'an, 9.33
• “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130
• The Prophet on his death-bed, gave orders saying, "Expel the unbelievers from the Arabian Peninsula." -Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288
• Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb [unbelievers], who do not understand. -Qur'an 8:22
• Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians. -Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 727

These are the ideals that muhammedans live by. They are from the original sources. There is none of the flexible interpretation or allegorical mitigation that one can find in Christianity, Judaism, and other faiths that have moved beyond the dark ages. As a part of your conversion, you should have studied your koranology. This is what Islamism is about--supremacy, bigotry, intolerance, hatred, and violence. 

Islamic terrorists don't need popular support to be "successful". ISIS is just one relevant example.


----------



## Shusha

José said:


> *Shusha's Plan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Shusha*
> people are free to travel as necessary and desired, but have permanent residency in one state or the other
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A "delicate" way to say the new state would continue to impose the forced exile on millions of palestinians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Shusha*
> All people of either Jewish or Palestinian descent anywhere in the world are free to immigrate to any place in the State (with a five year residency requirement) and within certain limitations of not overwhelming either state with large population increases nor to upset the ethnic balance, initially, in each state
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More "delicate" manners to say the jewish supremacism would continue to be enforced with the addition of the word *INITIALLY* to sweeten the pill and make it more pallatable in order to induce  people like Montelatici to jump on the bandwagon and call it "a fair plan".
Click to expand...



Huh?  How so?  The plan acknowledges the necessity of keeping ethnic populations relatively equal, especially at the beginning so as not to threaten either state.  The plan applies equally to both sides.  Since when is equal treatment somehow unfair or morally wrong? 

Besides that how would a sudden influx of millions of people, of any ethnicity, somehow be good for a fledgling State and its infrastructure and economy?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without popular support Hamas would disappear so they would have to do an IRA and become a political party only.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point.
> 
> It would apply to more than Hamas. Virtually all of the parties from both sides were created out of conflict. If conflict turns to peace, none of these parties will have a reason to be. Extremism would find little support in future elections.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's quite the slathering bit of apologetics for Islamic terrorists.
> 
> Much of the conflict in the Islamist Middle East has everything to do with conflict _created_ by Islamic terrorists pressing their particular agenda. Islamist ideology is about imposing Islamism.
> 
> • Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
> Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." —Sahih Bukhari, V1B2N24
> • He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the unbelievers hate it. —Qur'an, 9.33
> • “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130
> • The Prophet on his death-bed, gave orders saying, "Expel the unbelievers from the Arabian Peninsula." -Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288
> • Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb [unbelievers], who do not understand. -Qur'an 8:22
> • Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians. -Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 727
> 
> These are the ideals that muhammedans live by. They are from the original sources. There is none of the flexible interpretation or allegorical mitigation that one can find in Christianity, Judaism, and other faiths that have moved beyond the dark ages. As a part of your conversion, you should have studied your koranology. This is what Islamism is about--supremacy, bigotry, intolerance, hatred, and violence.
> 
> Islamic terrorists don't need popular support to be "successful". ISIS is just one relevant example.
Click to expand...

Nah, this conflict was created by Zionist settler colonialism.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Shusha*
> Huh? How so? The plan acknowledges the necessity of keeping ethnic populations relatively equal, *especially at the beginning* so as not to threaten either state. The plan applies equally to both sides. Since when is equal treatment somehow unfair or morally wrong?



"*specially* at the beginning", meaning that even after the "beginning", the european colonists of jewish faith who founded the state of Israel would still have a right to restrict the right of the native people to live in their homeland.

Even more delicate ways of wrapping and selling the perpetuation of jewish supremacism in Palestine as something intrinsically just, fair.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without popular support Hamas would disappear so they would have to do an IRA and become a political party only.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point.
> 
> It would apply to more than Hamas. Virtually all of the parties from both sides were created out of conflict. If conflict turns to peace, none of these parties will have a reason to be. Extremism would find little support in future elections.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's quite the slathering bit of apologetics for Islamic terrorists.
> 
> Much of the conflict in the Islamist Middle East has everything to do with conflict _created_ by Islamic terrorists pressing their particular agenda. Islamist ideology is about imposing Islamism.
> 
> • Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
> Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." —Sahih Bukhari, V1B2N24
> • He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the unbelievers hate it. —Qur'an, 9.33
> • “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130
> • The Prophet on his death-bed, gave orders saying, "Expel the unbelievers from the Arabian Peninsula." -Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288
> • Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb [unbelievers], who do not understand. -Qur'an 8:22
> • Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians. -Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 727
> 
> These are the ideals that muhammedans live by. They are from the original sources. There is none of the flexible interpretation or allegorical mitigation that one can find in Christianity, Judaism, and other faiths that have moved beyond the dark ages. As a part of your conversion, you should have studied your koranology. This is what Islamism is about--supremacy, bigotry, intolerance, hatred, and violence.
> 
> Islamic terrorists don't need popular support to be "successful". ISIS is just one relevant example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nah, this conflict was created by Zionist settler colonialism.
Click to expand...

Actually, no. Islamist ideology is what caused Islamics to spill out of the Arabian peninsula after the death of muhammud (swish). That ideology is one of war, rapine, conquest and colonization. 

You aren't intellectually honest so it's difficult for you to acknowledge that not just Jews, but Christians and even the "wrong kind of Islamics" have been expelled from the Islamist Middle East. 

Islamism is an ideology of fascism and supremacism. 

Kinda' makes you feel good about converting to an ideology that caters to your hate / self-hate, no?


----------



## fanger

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without popular support Hamas would disappear so they would have to do an IRA and become a political party only.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point.
> 
> It would apply to more than Hamas. Virtually all of the parties from both sides were created out of conflict. If conflict turns to peace, none of these parties will have a reason to be. Extremism would find little support in future elections.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's quite the slathering bit of apologetics for Islamic terrorists.
> 
> Much of the conflict in the Islamist Middle East has everything to do with conflict _created_ by Islamic terrorists pressing their particular agenda. Islamist ideology is about imposing Islamism.
> 
> • Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
> Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." —Sahih Bukhari, V1B2N24
> • He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the unbelievers hate it. —Qur'an, 9.33
> • “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130
> • The Prophet on his death-bed, gave orders saying, "Expel the unbelievers from the Arabian Peninsula." -Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288
> • Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb [unbelievers], who do not understand. -Qur'an 8:22
> • Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians. -Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 727
> 
> These are the ideals that muhammedans live by. They are from the original sources. There is none of the flexible interpretation or allegorical mitigation that one can find in Christianity, Judaism, and other faiths that have moved beyond the dark ages. As a part of your conversion, you should have studied your koranology. This is what Islamism is about--supremacy, bigotry, intolerance, hatred, and violence.
> 
> Islamic terrorists don't need popular support to be "successful". ISIS is just one relevant example.
Click to expand...

Where are you quoting from?
No results found for *“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130*.

It's in good form to cite the source of your cutting and pasting.


----------



## Hollie

fanger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without popular support Hamas would disappear so they would have to do an IRA and become a political party only.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point.
> 
> It would apply to more than Hamas. Virtually all of the parties from both sides were created out of conflict. If conflict turns to peace, none of these parties will have a reason to be. Extremism would find little support in future elections.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's quite the slathering bit of apologetics for Islamic terrorists.
> 
> Much of the conflict in the Islamist Middle East has everything to do with conflict _created_ by Islamic terrorists pressing their particular agenda. Islamist ideology is about imposing Islamism.
> 
> • Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
> Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." —Sahih Bukhari, V1B2N24
> • He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the unbelievers hate it. —Qur'an, 9.33
> • “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130
> • The Prophet on his death-bed, gave orders saying, "Expel the unbelievers from the Arabian Peninsula." -Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288
> • Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb [unbelievers], who do not understand. -Qur'an 8:22
> • Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians. -Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 727
> 
> These are the ideals that muhammedans live by. They are from the original sources. There is none of the flexible interpretation or allegorical mitigation that one can find in Christianity, Judaism, and other faiths that have moved beyond the dark ages. As a part of your conversion, you should have studied your koranology. This is what Islamism is about--supremacy, bigotry, intolerance, hatred, and violence.
> 
> Islamic terrorists don't need popular support to be "successful". ISIS is just one relevant example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where are you quoting from?
> No results found for *“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130*.
> 
> It's in good form to cite the source of your cutting and pasting.
Click to expand...


I did. You confirmed the source.


----------



## fanger

you left no link to your cut and paste, there is no result from a Google search of*“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130*.  _“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated ..._ - did not match any documents.
care to try again buttercup?

It's in good form to cite the source of your cutting and pasting.


----------



## Hollie

fanger said:


> you left no link to your cut and paste, there is no result from a Google search of*“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130*.
> care to try again buttercup?



You cited the same source I did. 

Keep looking.


----------



## fanger

I cited Google search who came up with  No results found for *“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130*.


----------



## Hollie

fanger said:


> I cited Google search who came up with  No results found for *“The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.” -Tabari VIII:130*.



You can't find Tabari?


----------



## fanger

I suggest neither of us can come up with a link to your cut and paste, did you change the words? either post a link or be held as a liar


----------



## Hollie

fanger said:


> I suggest neither of us can come up with a link to your cut and paste, did you change the words? either post a link or be held as a liar


You're pompous. Keep looking.


----------



## fanger

The onus is on you to post a link to your cut and (edit) paste


----------



## Shusha

José said:


> "*specially* at the beginning", meaning that even after the "beginning", the european colonists of jewish faith who founded the state of Israel would still have a right to restrict the right of the native people to live in their homeland.
> 
> Even more delicate ways of wrapping and selling the perpetuation of jewish supremacism in Palestine as something intrinsically just, fair.



Yes.  Both sides, as a protective measure for each side, would limit immigration so as to keep the populations equal with neither being permitted to overrun the other.  

The whole point being that neither side would have the capability to be "supreme".  

How is that unfair or morally wrong?


----------



## teddyearp

P F Tinmore said:


> Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.
> 
> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.


Ha!  Nice contradiction contained within your own post for all to see.  Because you finally admit through your veiled "Decolonization is the only just solution" that you actually want the State of Israel to cease to exist. And then contradict it to imply that there would be no "violation of rights" in doing so.

Quit trying to unscramble eggs. The egg has been opened.  Please quit looking at the past and look towards a future.


----------



## teddyearp

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.
> 
> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.
> 
> 
> 
> What does that mean?
Click to expand...

It is Timnore's way of saying that he wants the State of Israel to cease to exist.  You should know that by now, hehe.


----------



## teddyearp

Coyote said:


> I would disagree here, based on opinion polls (it isn't a choice as you outline): October 2012 Yisraela Goldblum Fund poll - Wikipedia


Just want to point out a couple of problems with that poll. One of the most glaring is that it was performed in the fall of 2012, and other events since then have somewhat changed the landscape on the ground.

The other one that is actually more glaring is that it was performed by Haaretz, a newspaper that is just about as anti-Israel as can be, therefore their poll is pulled from their readership which shares their core views. Did you notice how they had to change the name of the poll?

I would be very interested to see if there could be a pro-Israel/anti-Palestine newspaper published in say, Ramallah?


----------



## teddyearp

Overall, I think that threads like this are a very refreshing change from the constant "They did this bad", but "They also did this bad" and "Hey now look at how bad this is" type threads that have populated this board for way too long. I know I have been guilty of starting a few myself. We ALL know that mistakes have been made on both sides. But a thread like this actually weeds out and exposes us all to how others really feel.

Sure, we are never going to solve the problems there, we do not have the control to do so.

But, like I said, threads like this exposes the actual core beliefs of some of the posters on both sides; it exposes the true intent of said posters, showing that some on neither side really want peace.  No, they just want to keep looking at the divisions of the past and never will they look at the present, nor ever really want a solution.

I'll not name names, but interesting to me is some on the pro-Israel side post straight up that they want all the Palestinians to go elsewhere, either dead or at the point of a gun. But hey, at least they're not pulling any punches, and you know exactly where they stand. What is scary is some on the pro-Palestine side who post more discreetly by saying "End the colonization" or "occupation" or some other elusive fashion and when asked to clarify all you hear is this: Crickets.

So, tl,dr. But thanks to those of you who we have butted heads sometimes in other threads for actually providing honest, clear, and intellectual input here.  It's been great!


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *teddyearp*
> But, like I said, threads like this exposes the actual core beliefs of some of the posters on both sides; it exposes the true intent of said posters, *showing that some on neither side really want peace*.



Teddy

Some days ago I told you something like this:

*If in 2017, you still call the partition of Palestine a solution, I don't wanna see what you call a miserable failure.*

Now I'm gonna paraphrase myself and tell you:

*If in 2017, you still call the partition of Palestine a way to peace, I don't want to see what you call a path to an endless war.*


----------



## P F Tinmore

teddyearp said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.
> 
> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha!  Nice contradiction contained within your own post for all to see.  Because you finally admit through your veiled "Decolonization is the only just solution" that you actually want the State of Israel to cease to exist. And then contradict it to imply that there would be no "violation of rights" in doing so.
> 
> Quit trying to unscramble eggs. The egg has been opened.  Please quit looking at the past and look towards a future.
Click to expand...

What rights would be denied if it was in compliance of international law?


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> What rights would be denied if it was in compliance of international law?



Depends what "it" is.  But since you never bother to explain what "it" is...how can we know?

There is a proposal on the table about what a one State solution might look like.  Care to actually comment on it?  Or propose a different one?


----------



## Slyhunter

P F Tinmore said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.
> 
> Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha!  Nice contradiction contained within your own post for all to see.  Because you finally admit through your veiled "Decolonization is the only just solution" that you actually want the State of Israel to cease to exist. And then contradict it to imply that there would be no "violation of rights" in doing so.
> 
> Quit trying to unscramble eggs. The egg has been opened.  Please quit looking at the past and look towards a future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What rights would be denied if it was in compliance of international law?
Click to expand...

The Jewish rights to live freely in their own country of heritage promised to them by God to the Israelites.


----------



## Humanity

fanger said:


> The onus is on you to post a link to your cut and (edit) paste



Here's a link... In The Name Of Allah - Spoils of War

Though I still cannot find what was quoted...


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Humanity said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The onus is on you to post a link to your cut and (edit) paste
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a link... In The Name Of Allah - Spoils of War
> 
> Though I still cannot find what was quoted...
Click to expand...


Islam is a sick death cult.


----------



## Humanity

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fanger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The onus is on you to post a link to your cut and (edit) paste
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a link... In The Name Of Allah - Spoils of War
> 
> Though I still cannot find what was quoted...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islam is a sick death cult.
Click to expand...


No it's not...


----------



## Slyhunter

Humanity said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fanger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The onus is on you to post a link to your cut and (edit) paste
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a link... In The Name Of Allah - Spoils of War
> 
> Though I still cannot find what was quoted...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islam is a sick death cult.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it's not...
Click to expand...

Yes it is.


----------



## teddyearp

José said:


> *If in 2017, you still call the partition of Palestine a way to peace, I don't want to see what you call a path to an endless war.*



I don't know, I really don't know.  Maybe I am dreaming to hpoe that there can can be a way the two can share the area. With attitudes like your post projects, it can only be one or the other, correct? Or did I understand you wrong?


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *teddyearp*
> I don't know, I really don't know. Maybe I am dreaming to hpoe that there can can be a way the two can share the area. With attitudes like your post projects, it can only be one or the other, correct? Or did I understand you wrong?



In other words, you're calling me a radical for supporting the dismantlement of the state of Israel.

But regardless of how you classify my utterly *IRRELEVANT*, *SUBJECTIVE* personal opinion, it doesn't change the *OBJECTIVE* facts on the ground:

*The partition of Palestine is a 120 year miserable failure.

The people of Palestine rejected a jewish state in the region in 1880 when the first zionist settlers arrived.

They rejected it in 1948 when the state of Israel was created.

They reject it now in 2017.

And they will still reject it in 2120.*

You're free to judge and classify personal opinions regarding the dismantling of Israel any way you want, but you're not free to deny facts.

Call  99% of the palestinian people a bunch of extremists.

Feel free to portray yourself as a moderate debating with José, Tinmore and Challenger, the fanatics of the US Message Board.

Call me a radical, an extremist, call me everything you want, teddy... but do not try to deny a reality that's in front of your eyes:

*The partition of Palestine has been a colossal disaster in the last 120 years and will continue to be a disaster for the next 120.*

The truth is always true, no matter who tells it: moderates or radicals.

Contrary to what the western propaganda says, the arabs of Palestine, since the end of the 19th century, have been consistently rejecting the creation of a jewish state in Palestine so the partition of Palestine is anything but a path to peace.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

José said:


> Originally posted by *teddyearp*
> I don't know, I really don't know. Maybe I am dreaming to hpoe that there can can be a way the two can share the area. With attitudes like your post projects, it can only be one or the other, correct? Or did I understand you wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you're calling me a radical for supporting the dismantlement of the state of Israel.
> 
> But regardless of how you classify my utterly *IRRELEVANT*, *SUBJECTIVE* personal opinion, it doesn't change the *OBJECTIVE* facts on the ground:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine is a 120 year miserable failure.
> 
> The people of Palestine rejected a jewish state in the region in 1880 when the first zionist settlers arrived.
> 
> They rejected it in 1948 when the state of Israel was created.
> 
> They reject it now in 2017.
> 
> And they will still reject it in 2120.*
> 
> You're free to judge and classify personal opinions regarding the dismantling of Israel any way you want, but you're not free to deny facts.
> 
> Call  99% of the palestinian people a bunch of extremists.
> 
> Feel free to portray yourself as a moderate debating José, Tinmore and Challenger, the fanatics of the US Message Board.
> 
> Call me a radical, an extremist, call me everything you want, teddy... but do not try to deny a reality that's in front of your eyes:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine has been a colossal disaster in the last 120 years and will continue to be a disaster for the next 120.*
> 
> The truth is always true, no matter who tells it: moderates or radicals.
> 
> Contrary to what the western propaganda says, the arabs of Palestine, since the end of the 19th century, have been consistently rejecting the creation of a jewish state in Palestine so the partition of Palestine is anything but a path to peace.
Click to expand...


I think you mean the partition of Eretz Yisroel, not Palestine.  And BTW, the Arch of Titus in Rome clearly shows Jewish slaves and artifacts from the Temple being brought to Rome.  It's not such a long distance from Western to Eastern Europe.  And I have the Kohen gene.


----------



## Challenger

José said:


> Originally posted by *teddyearp*
> I don't know, I really don't know. Maybe I am dreaming to hpoe that there can can be a way the two can share the area. With attitudes like your post projects, it can only be one or the other, correct? Or did I understand you wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you're calling me a radical for supporting the dismantlement of the state of Israel.
> 
> But regardless of how you classify my utterly *IRRELEVANT*, *SUBJECTIVE* personal opinion, it doesn't change the *OBJECTIVE* facts on the ground:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine is a 120 year miserable failure.
> 
> The people of Palestine rejected a jewish state in the region in 1880 when the first zionist settlers arrived.
> 
> They rejected it in 1948 when the state of Israel was created.
> 
> They reject it now in 2017.
> 
> And they will still reject it in 2120.*
> 
> You're free to judge and classify personal opinions regarding the dismantling of Israel any way you want, but you're not free to deny facts.
> 
> Call  99% of the palestinian people a bunch of extremists.
> 
> Feel free to portray yourself as a moderate debating with José, Tinmore and Challenger, the fanatics of the US Message Board.
> 
> Call me a radical, an extremist, call me everything you want, teddy... but do not try to deny a reality that's in front of your eyes:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine has been a colossal disaster in the last 120 years and will continue to be a disaster for the next 120.*
> 
> The truth is always true, no matter who tells it: moderates or radicals.
> 
> Contrary to what the western propaganda says, the arabs of Palestine, since the end of the 19th century, have been consistently rejecting the creation of a jewish state in Palestine so the partition of Palestine is anything but a path to peace.
Click to expand...


That hits the nail right on the head. There can never be peace so long as Zionist exclusivity means that the indigenous Palestinians are second class (at best) citizens in their own lands. Going forward both Jewish and Muslim need to come together as one community in a truely democratic state with equality for all it's citizens, regardless of religion.


----------



## Challenger

ForeverYoung436 said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *teddyearp*
> I don't know, I really don't know. Maybe I am dreaming to hpoe that there can can be a way the two can share the area. With attitudes like your post projects, it can only be one or the other, correct? Or did I understand you wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you're calling me a radical for supporting the dismantlement of the state of Israel.
> 
> But regardless of how you classify my utterly *IRRELEVANT*, *SUBJECTIVE* personal opinion, it doesn't change the *OBJECTIVE* facts on the ground:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine is a 120 year miserable failure.
> 
> The people of Palestine rejected a jewish state in the region in 1880 when the first zionist settlers arrived.
> 
> They rejected it in 1948 when the state of Israel was created.
> 
> They reject it now in 2017.
> 
> And they will still reject it in 2120.*
> 
> You're free to judge and classify personal opinions regarding the dismantling of Israel any way you want, but you're not free to deny facts.
> 
> Call  99% of the palestinian people a bunch of extremists.
> 
> Feel free to portray yourself as a moderate debating José, Tinmore and Challenger, the fanatics of the US Message Board.
> 
> Call me a radical, an extremist, call me everything you want, teddy... but do not try to deny a reality that's in front of your eyes:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine has been a colossal disaster in the last 120 years and will continue to be a disaster for the next 120.*
> 
> The truth is always true, no matter who tells it: moderates or radicals.
> 
> Contrary to what the western propaganda says, the arabs of Palestine, since the end of the 19th century, have been consistently rejecting the creation of a jewish state in Palestine so the partition of Palestine is anything but a path to peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you mean the partition of Eretz Yisroel, not Palestine.  And BTW, the Arch of Titus in Rome clearly shows Jewish slaves and artifacts from the Temple being brought to Rome.  It's not such a long distance from Western to Eastern Europe.  And I have the Kohen gene.
Click to expand...


The arch of Titus (technically should be the arch of Domitian as he had it built) shows Roman soldiers carrying treasures from the sack of Jerusalem, there are no slaves or captives depicted. This is a long debunked Zionist myth. 

It's also curious that it's not such a long distance from Western to Eastern Europe, and neither is it from Europe to Palestine, yet for over a millenium when there was no war or other conflicts to prevent them travelling and no laws foebidding travel to Palestine, that the so called "Jewish people" never bothered to fulfill their "yearning" for being in Jerusalem next year.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Challenger said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *teddyearp*
> I don't know, I really don't know. Maybe I am dreaming to hpoe that there can can be a way the two can share the area. With attitudes like your post projects, it can only be one or the other, correct? Or did I understand you wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you're calling me a radical for supporting the dismantlement of the state of Israel.
> 
> But regardless of how you classify my utterly *IRRELEVANT*, *SUBJECTIVE* personal opinion, it doesn't change the *OBJECTIVE* facts on the ground:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine is a 120 year miserable failure.
> 
> The people of Palestine rejected a jewish state in the region in 1880 when the first zionist settlers arrived.
> 
> They rejected it in 1948 when the state of Israel was created.
> 
> They reject it now in 2017.
> 
> And they will still reject it in 2120.*
> 
> You're free to judge and classify personal opinions regarding the dismantling of Israel any way you want, but you're not free to deny facts.
> 
> Call  99% of the palestinian people a bunch of extremists.
> 
> Feel free to portray yourself as a moderate debating José, Tinmore and Challenger, the fanatics of the US Message Board.
> 
> Call me a radical, an extremist, call me everything you want, teddy... but do not try to deny a reality that's in front of your eyes:
> 
> *The partition of Palestine has been a colossal disaster in the last 120 years and will continue to be a disaster for the next 120.*
> 
> The truth is always true, no matter who tells it: moderates or radicals.
> 
> Contrary to what the western propaganda says, the arabs of Palestine, since the end of the 19th century, have been consistently rejecting the creation of a jewish state in Palestine so the partition of Palestine is anything but a path to peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you mean the partition of Eretz Yisroel, not Palestine.  And BTW, the Arch of Titus in Rome clearly shows Jewish slaves and artifacts from the Temple being brought to Rome.  It's not such a long distance from Western to Eastern Europe.  And I have the Kohen gene.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The arch of Titus (technically should be the arch of Domitian as he had it built) shows Roman soldiers carrying treasures from the sack of Jerusalem, there are no slaves or captives depicted. This is a long debunked Zionist myth.
> 
> It's also curious that it's not such a long distance from Western to Eastern Europe, and neither is it from Europe to Palestine, yet for over a millenium when there was no war or other conflicts to prevent them travelling and no laws foebidding travel to Palestine, that the so called "Jewish people" never bothered to fulfill their "yearning" for being in Jerusalem next year.
Click to expand...


monte says that 90,000 Jews were taken to Rome.


----------



## Challenger

ForeverYoung436 said:


> ...monte says that 90,000 Jews were taken to Rome.



I think you'll find that monte was citing from Flavius Josephus' account. However, Josephus is widely known to have exaggerated numbers.  S. J. D. Cohen, for example in his biography of Josephus, "Josephus in Galilee and Rome, his Vita and Development as a Historian", says he was "sloppy"and says he was prone to exaggeration, inconsistency and, "corrupt transmission of names and numbers". I'd take that "90,000" and knock a few "0"s off, especially as he gives the total military strength of the rebels at the start of the war at 23,400.

Fun though this is, we're straying off topic.


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Ali Abunimah at the One State Conference*

******


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore 

See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.  

A solution can only be found with mutual respect.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore
> 
> See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.
> 
> A solution can only be found with mutual respect.



The way the Jews treat the non-Jews they rule over shows so much respect.



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore
> 
> See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.
> 
> A solution can only be found with mutual respect.


He did call for mutual respect. What makes you think he didn't?


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore
> 
> See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.
> 
> A solution can only be found with mutual respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way the Jews treat the non-Jews they rule over shows so much respect.
> 
> 
> 
> Embedded media from this media site is no longer available
Click to expand...


Sure.  So you show more video for the purpose of demonizing Israel.  (Footage, btw, that looks very much like what you would see at any international border).  

Still getting us nowhere.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore
> 
> See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.
> 
> A solution can only be found with mutual respect.
> 
> 
> 
> He did call for mutual respect. What makes you think he didn't?
Click to expand...


Oh, I don't know.  Perhaps it was all the rhetoric about Jewish supremacy and massacres and "relentless attempts to destroy them" and "violent ethnic cleansing" and that Israel has "no future" and "extreme forms of oppression" and "escalating massacres on a regular basis".  

It would be rather like me posting a video about Muzzie barbarians who only understand violence and martyrdom and who enjoy murdering their children at the behest of their god and *somehow expecting you to see that as respectful.* 

Respect necessarily includes a certain understanding and empathy for the other side, even if you disagree with their narrative.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> He did call for mutual respect. What makes you think he didn't?



He was not, himself, respectful.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore
> 
> See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.
> 
> A solution can only be found with mutual respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way the Jews treat the non-Jews they rule over shows so much respect.
> 
> 
> 
> Embedded media from this media site is no longer available
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure.  So you show more video for the purpose of demonizing Israel.  (Footage, btw, that looks very much like what you would see at any international border).
> 
> Still getting us nowhere.
Click to expand...

It isn't a border crossing. It is just a harassment point.


----------



## montelatici

Mutual respect


----------



## montelatici

Mutual respect:


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore
> 
> See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.
> 
> A solution can only be found with mutual respect.
> 
> 
> 
> He did call for mutual respect. What makes you think he didn't?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, I don't know.  Perhaps it was all the rhetoric about Jewish supremacy and massacres and "relentless attempts to destroy them" and "violent ethnic cleansing" and that Israel has "no future" and "extreme forms of oppression" and "escalating massacres on a regular basis".
> 
> It would be rather like me posting a video about Muzzie barbarians who only understand violence and martyrdom and who enjoy murdering their children at the behest of their god and *somehow expecting you to see that as respectful.*
> 
> Respect necessarily includes a certain understanding and empathy for the other side, even if you disagree with their narrative.
Click to expand...

He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> It isn't a border crossing. It is just a harassment point.



The video actually shows a number of different checkpoints, as far as I could tell.  

Do you think there should be no checkpoints between Israel and Palestine?  If so, how would you address the still very real issue of attacks against innocent Israeli citizens?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't a border crossing. It is just a harassment point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The video actually shows a number of different checkpoints, as far as I could tell.
> 
> Do you think there should be no checkpoints between Israel and Palestine?  If so, how would you address the still very real issue of attacks against innocent Israeli citizens?
Click to expand...

Those were not between Israel and Palestine.


----------



## Shusha

montelatici said:


> Mutual respect:



Monte, seriously?  Its not like I can't post videos of Arab Palestinians stabbing people, strapped with suicide bombs, inciting hatred in their places of worship and a hundred other things.

Its not respect.  You know it and I know it.  If the two of us (who are not intimately involved in the conflict) can't manage a respectful conversation free from rhetoric and demonization -- how can we ever manage to believe in a solution?


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mutual respect:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monte, seriously?  Its not like I can't post videos of Arab Palestinians stabbing people, strapped with suicide bombs, inciting hatred in their places of worship and a hundred other things.
> 
> Its not respect.  You know it and I know it.  If the two of us (who are not intimately involved in the conflict) can't manage a respectful conversation free from rhetoric and demonization -- how can we ever manage to believe in a solution?
Click to expand...


This humiliation of the non-Jews takes place on a daily basis and it is perpetrated by public officials.  The occasional Palestinian attacks on, mostly public officials (the police and IDF), the same groups that are doing the humiliation, are attacks on perpetrators of the occupation. There is a huge difference.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.



No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.


----------



## P F Tinmore

You have 


Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
Click to expand...

You have that backwards. Remember, it was Israel that occupied Palestine in 1948.

BTW, here is another narrative.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> You have that backwards. Remember, it was Israel that occupied Palestine in 1948.



No, I don't have it backwards.  In a one state solution the belligerence has to end and the Jewish people have to be respected.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have that backwards. Remember, it was Israel that occupied Palestine in 1948.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't have it backwards.  In a one state solution the belligerence has to end and the Jewish people have to be respected.
Click to expand...

I don't have it backward. The Palestinians were at home. They didn't go attack anybody.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

P F Tinmore said:


> You have
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have that backwards. Remember, it was Israel that occupied Palestine in 1948.
> 
> BTW, here is another narrative.
Click to expand...


You don't really have a right to show this video.  When Yuli talks about the Occupation, she's talking about the West Bank, not all of Israel.


----------



## Challenger

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore
> 
> See, the above videos are exactly the rhetoric which demonizes Israel and demonizes even the Jewish desire for self-determination.  There is no path to a solution to be found there.  It gets us absolutely no where.
> 
> A solution can only be found with mutual respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way the Jews treat the non-Jews they rule over shows so much respect.
> 
> 
> 
> Embedded media from this media site is no longer available
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure.  So you show more video for the purpose of demonizing Israel.  (Footage, btw, that looks very much like what you would see at any international border).
> 
> Still getting us nowhere.
Click to expand...


Really? In my travels I've crossed at least fifteen international borders and never seen anything remotely resembling the behaviour of the IDF in that video. Those aren't international border controls in any event, they're "checkpoints" that spring up like mushrooms in occupied Palestine, just to cause "inconvenience" to the Palestinians going about their lawful business. No signs of "respect" there, just Zionist thuggery.


----------



## Challenger

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't a border crossing. It is just a harassment point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The video actually shows a number of different checkpoints, as far as I could tell.
> 
> Do you think there should be no checkpoints between Israel and Palestine?  If so, how would you address the still very real issue of attacks against innocent Israeli citizens?
Click to expand...


Show me the Israeli civillians at those "checkpoints".


----------



## Challenger

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
Click to expand...


This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way







Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.


----------



## Hollie

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
Click to expand...


In the twisted, alternate reality of the Islamic terrorist huggers, attacks by Islamic terrorists are somehow _Zionist provocations_™.

Taqiyya troll tactics.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
Click to expand...

There is the colonizer and the colonized.

There, both narratives. Happy now?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In the twisted, alternate reality of the Islamic terrorist huggers, attacks by Islamic terrorists are somehow _Zionist provocations_™.
> 
> Taqiyya troll tactics.
Click to expand...

You tend to forget who is occupying whom.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
Click to expand...

Indeed!


----------



## Challenger

P F Tinmore said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indeed!
Click to expand...


Cartoons put a lot into perspective. I especially like this one:






Perfect example of Zionist doublespeak Hasbara.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is the colonizer and the colonized.
> 
> There, both narratives. Happy now?
Click to expand...


Very simplistic and black-and-white.  Life is full of gray areas.


----------



## Eloy

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is the colonizer and the colonized.
> 
> There, both narratives. Happy now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very simplistic and black-and-white.  Life is full of gray areas.
Click to expand...

The Israeli-Palestinian problem is not full of gray areas but is rather straightforward and uncomplicated, namely, Palestinians are living and dying under a brutal half-century long Israeli occupation.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is the colonizer and the colonized.
> 
> There, both narratives. Happy now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very simplistic and black-and-white.  Life is full of gray areas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Israeli-Palestinian problem is not full of gray areas but is rather straightforward and uncomplicated, namely, Palestinians are living and dying under a brutal half-century long Israeli occupation.
Click to expand...


Actually, it is only in one city, Hebron, that I consider the occupation to be brutal.  Hopefully, that can be resolved soon.


----------



## montelatici

Only one city? LOL How about Bethlehem:


----------



## Shusha

Challenger said:


> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.



Why is Palestinian desire for self-determination seen in a positive light and Jewish desire for self-determination seen as an ugly land grab and a perversion?

See, this is the basic lack of respect that I'm talking about.


----------



## Eloy

Shusha said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is Palestinian desire for self-determination seen in a positive light and Jewish desire for self-determination seen as an ugly land grab and a perversion?
> 
> See, this is the basic lack of respect that I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

The state of Israel is founded on a twentieth-century land grab.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is Palestinian desire for self-determination seen in a positive light and Jewish desire for self-determination seen as an ugly land grab and a perversion?
> 
> See, this is the basic lack of respect that I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

Because it is a land grab.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Because it is a land grab.



Why?  What makes it a land grab and not a people seeking self-determination?  What is the fundamental difference between those two things?  Why is the idea of the Jewish people having sovereignty and self-determination on their ancestral lands DIFFERENT from any other people's?


----------



## Eloy

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is a land grab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  What makes it a land grab and not a people seeking self-determination?  What is the fundamental difference between those two things?  Why is the idea of the Jewish people having sovereignty and self-determination on their ancestral lands DIFFERENT from any other people's?
Click to expand...

No part of the Middle East is ancestral land of European Jews.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is a land grab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  What makes it a land grab and not a people seeking self-determination?  What is the fundamental difference between those two things?  Why is the idea of the Jewish people having sovereignty and self-determination on their ancestral lands DIFFERENT from any other people's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No part of the Middle East is ancestral land of European Jews.
Click to expand...


You're right, it's not only the ancestral land of European Jews, but it's the ancestral land of Mideastern Jews too.  Whenever we pray or say grace after meals, we remember Israel.  On all our holidays, on Passover and Yom Kippur, we say, "Next year in Jerusalem."  On the fast day of Tisha B'av, we go without food or drink for 25 hours to remember the Temple in Jerusalem.  In our weddings, we break a glass for Jerusalem.  Family and work opportunities might keep us in other lands, but our hearts are always in Israel.  And Masada shall not fall again.


----------



## Shusha

Eloy said:


> No part of the Middle East is ancestral land of European Jews.



So, you are essentially saying that the Jewish people who clearly and undeniably are the historical culture of the land are in no way related to the Jewish people in the Diaspora even though they share the identical culture.  There is no connection between the two.


----------



## montelatici

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No part of the Middle East is ancestral land of European Jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you are essentially saying that the Jewish people who clearly and undeniably are the historical culture of the land are in no way related to the Jewish people in the Diaspora even though they share the identical culture.  There is no connection between the two.
Click to expand...


There is nothing identical culturally between Arab Jews and European Jews.  

*"I am an Arab Jew. Or, more specifically, an Iraqi Israeli woman living, writing and teaching in the U.S. Most members of my family were born and raised in Baghdad, and now live in Iraq, Israel, the U.S., England, and Holland. When my grandmother first encountered Israeli society in the '50s, she was convinced that the people who looked, spoke and ate so differently--the European Jews--were actually European Christians. Jewishness for her generation was inextricably associated with Middle Easterness. My grandmother, who still lives in Israel and still communicates largely in Arabic, had to be taught to speak of "us" as Jews and "them" as Arabs. For Middle Easterners, the operating distinction had always been "Muslim," "Jew," and "Christian," not Arab versus Jew. The assumption was that "Arabness" referred to a common shared culture and language, albeit with religious differences."

Reflections By An Arab Jew - Ella Shohat*


----------



## Eloy

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is a land grab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  What makes it a land grab and not a people seeking self-determination?  What is the fundamental difference between those two things?  Why is the idea of the Jewish people having sovereignty and self-determination on their ancestral lands DIFFERENT from any other people's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No part of the Middle East is ancestral land of European Jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right, it's not only the ancestral land of European Jews, but it's the ancestral land of Mideastern Jews too.  Whenever we pray or say grace after meals, we remember Israel.  On all our holidays, on Passover and Yom Kippur, we say, "Next year in Jerusalem."  On the fast day of Tisha B'av, we go without food or drink for 25 hours to remember the Temple in Jerusalem.  In our weddings, we break a glass for Jerusalem.  Family and work opportunities might keep us in other lands, but our hearts are always in Israel.  And Masada shall not fall again.
Click to expand...

Undoubtedly, the Jewish faith, like Christianity, has its roots in the Holy Land, millennia ago. These faiths were taken to other parts of the Roman World but forever Jerusalem represented a tradition for those who accepted the teachings. Through time, both these faiths which have an attachment to the Holy Land saw Jerusalem become inhabited mostly by Islam. Both Judaism and Christianity preserve a connection to the place in their prayers, psalms, and hymns. The Catholic Mass makes present the Passover meal Joshua Ben Joseph shared with his Jewish Apostles in Jerusalem and this is the holiest of Catholic prayers.

What you are forgetting is that it is not the city of Jerusalem that matters because wherever God's people are gathered in prayer, there God is among them. The people are Israel, don't you see? And the wish that next year in Jerusalem is an expression that we know where we come from as faith communities and one day God will take His place in His holy city and reign supreme among his faithful people. This is an eschatological aspiration. Let it not be trampled upon by mere men who disgrace the Word of God and His Kingdom (that is His alone to establish in the fullness of time) by shedding blood to take the homeland of Palestinians today. The very pretense of calling the country Israel is surely a blasphemy because Israel is wherever God's people are and cannot be embraced by a modern political state established in blood and preserved by spilling the blood of the innocents.


----------



## Hollie

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is a land grab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  What makes it a land grab and not a people seeking self-determination?  What is the fundamental difference between those two things?  Why is the idea of the Jewish people having sovereignty and self-determination on their ancestral lands DIFFERENT from any other people's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No part of the Middle East is ancestral land of European Jews.
Click to expand...


What part of the middle East is ancestral land to European xtian Crusaders or Roman Conquerors? What part is ancestral to Turkish colonists?

I suppose for you and the identifiable Jew hating cabal it's convenient to remain ignorant regarding the Jewish ties to the area.


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## P F Tinmore

*Jeff Halper: Transforming Israel-Palestine into a Binational Democratic State *

**


----------



## Eloy

P F Tinmore said:


>


If you read Post # 98 you can see that Ilan Pappé is saying the same as I did, that there is already an Apartheid one-state Israel, including Judea and Sumeria. This has not yet sunk-in with the European Union or the United States.


----------



## Hollie

Eloy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you read Post # 98 you can see that Ilan Pappé is saying the same as I did, that there is already an Apartheid one-state Israel, including Judea and Sumeria. This has not yet sunk-in with the European Union or the United States.
Click to expand...


Well golly gee, but that makes you everyone's hero. 

The downside is that you slow learners sieze on the "apartheid" slogan without understanding the term and then fallaciously applying it to circumstances that are not applicable.


----------



## GHook93

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
Click to expand...


You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.

Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## Eloy

GHook93 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
Click to expand...

Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Eloy said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
Click to expand...


Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.


----------



## Eloy

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
Click to expand...

The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
Click to expand...

Of course nobody ever mention why the Palestinians fire rockets.


----------



## Hollie

Eloy said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
Click to expand...


Wow. You managed to employ many of the usual slogans used by the identifiable Jew hating cabal in one pointless, rambling diatribe.


----------



## Hollie

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
Click to expand...


But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. You managed to employ many of the usual slogans used by the identifiable Jew hating cabal in one pointless, rambling diatribe.
Click to expand...

Is Jew hating replacing Antisemitism that you people have played to death.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.
Click to expand...

Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.

Good girl.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> 
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.
> 
> Good girl.
Click to expand...


You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.
> 
> Good girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.
Click to expand...

islamic terrorist heroes

Is that your new talking point?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
> 
> 
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.
> 
> Good girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> islamic terrorist heroes
> 
> Is that your new talking point?
Click to expand...


Islamic terrorist heroes. Strange how goofy converts seem to gravitate to Islamic misfits as their heroes. 

You're hoping to impress someone?


----------



## Challenger

GHook93 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was merely stating why there is not peace. True, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
Click to expand...


When it comes to dishonesty, I'm a rank amateur compared with you Zionist Hasbara Trolls.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not.  If he were -- he would have included both narratives and would have presented it in a balanced, fair and understanding way.  He wouldn't be framing things in terms of "massacres" occurring in a vacuum.  He would acknowledge Gaza's belligerence and Israel's right to respond to that belligerence.  He would acknowledge that Jewish desire for self-determination is the same as Palestinian desire for self-determination and not call it Jewish supremacy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. You managed to employ many of the usual slogans used by the identifiable Jew hating cabal in one pointless, rambling diatribe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is Jew hating replacing Antisemitism that you people have played to death.
Click to expand...


I can't help but point out that you and others do spend inordinate amounts of time expressing your Jew hatreds.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is it--a disproportionate response to a provocation or a made-up pretext to attack?  It can't be both.  If they are responding to a provocation then it's not a pretext, because the provocation is something real.
> 
> 
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.
> 
> Good girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> islamic terrorist heroes
> 
> Is that your new talking point?
Click to expand...


You do spend inordinate amounts of time praying at the altar of Hamas.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a standard Hasbara troll tactic,  "balanced, fair and understanding way?" oh please! When the Palestinians retaliate to Zionist provocations they're being "belligerent", thus justifying a massively disproportionate response. This cartoon sums up the situation in a "fair, balanced and understanding" way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's not a "Jewish desire for self determination", its a Zionist desire for land that co-opts and perverts Judaism to it's goals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are the most dishonest poster on this board. Blinded by your hatred for Jews. Spoiler alert: We will defeat you pussy.
> 
> Your cartoon is beyond propaganda. It is a outright lie. The scum bag Palestinians lobby 1000s of missiles at Israel and then Israel responds. Israel always responds after the Palestinians attack. Most of the time they go in with kid gloves when they should be turning Gaza into a parking lot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apartheid Israel's pretext for massacring Palestinian civilians, men, women, and children, including beautiful babies is notoriously and criminally disproportionate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. You managed to employ many of the usual slogans used by the identifiable Jew hating cabal in one pointless, rambling diatribe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is Jew hating replacing Antisemitism that you people have played to death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't help but point out that you and others do spend inordinate amounts of time expressing your Jew hatreds.
Click to expand...

Links?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The home-made, inaccurate, basically harmless firecrackers launched by some rogue delinquents are not a threat to Israelis who use them as a pretext for a massacre and by comparison, the full-scale use of Apartheid Israel's navy, air force, and army artillery and incursions into Gaza with all the deaths of beautiful Palestinian babies, children, civilians, and the total destruction of the Gaza concentration camp infrastructure is manifestly a disproportionate response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.
> 
> Good girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> islamic terrorist heroes
> 
> Is that your new talking point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You do spend inordinate amounts of time praying at the altar of Hamas.
Click to expand...

Links?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, it is good practice for when the IDF decides (finally) to end the Islamic terrorist scourge.
> 
> 
> 
> Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.
> 
> Good girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> islamic terrorist heroes
> 
> Is that your new talking point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You do spend inordinate amounts of time praying at the altar of Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?
Click to expand...

Posts.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ooooo, you played the terrorist card.
> 
> Good girl.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> islamic terrorist heroes
> 
> Is that your new talking point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You do spend inordinate amounts of time praying at the altar of Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Posts.
Click to expand...

Duck.


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## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make it so easy. When your islamic terrorist heroes are called for being exactly that, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same pointless canard.
> 
> 
> 
> islamic terrorist heroes
> 
> Is that your new talking point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You do spend inordinate amounts of time praying at the altar of Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Duck.
Click to expand...


Sidestep.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
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> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
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> 
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> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> islamic terrorist heroes
> 
> Is that your new talking point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do spend inordinate amounts of time praying at the altar of Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Duck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sidestep.
Click to expand...

You made unsubstantiated claims. Now you are ducking providing any proof.


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## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do spend inordinate amounts of time praying at the altar of Hamas.
> 
> 
> 
> Links?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Duck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sidestep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You made unsubstantiated claims. Now you are ducking providing any proof.
Click to expand...

Links?


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## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Links?
> 
> 
> 
> Posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Duck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sidestep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You made unsubstantiated claims. Now you are ducking providing any proof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?
Click to expand...

What exactly is the "one state solution"?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Duck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sidestep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You made unsubstantiated claims. Now you are ducking providing any proof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What exactly is the "one state solution"?
Click to expand...

What is the cause if your befuddlement?


----------



## Preacher

Shusha said:


> We have a thread to discuss solutions to the conflict from the lens of two states.  Many members would prefer a one state solution.  So let's discuss that as well.
> 
> What would a one state solution look like?  How would it preserve both the Jewish and the Arab character of the territory?  Do you envision a system of loosely connected, self-governing provinces with a federal government or just one overall government?  Would parliament be half Jewish/half Arab, or would there be some sort of proportional representation?  How would you protect the minority populations, including some which may be somewhat hostile?  How would you preserve the cultural artifacts of each group, both tangible and non-tangible?  Who gets to pray on the Temple Mount, renovate or build there? Would the Jewish people be able to build a synagogue there?  What would you call the new country?  What would its charter look like?  Will the laws be based on sharia or halakhah or both or neither?  Will immigration be based on jus soli or jus sanguinis?  Who will be eligible?  Will civil matters, such as marriage, be handled by civil courts or by religious institutions?
> 
> Some are going to say, "a secular and democratic state" (I'm looking at you P F Tinmore  and montelatici).  Please be specific.  What does this mean?  This is a great opportunity for you to discuss not only the mistakes you see Israel making -- but provide solutions.  How will the new country handle illegal building?  Or terrorist acts?  Terrorist groups who try to rise up?  How will you handle discrimination?
> 
> How will you convince me that in a hundred years, the state will still be both a Jewish state and also an Arab state?


Simple. The complete and utter annihilation of the Palestinian people and there ya go! No Palestinians no Palestinian state!


----------



## jillian

fanger said:


> jewish is a religion Arabian is a race



if that were true, anti-semite pond scum, then then your boy hitler wouldn't have considered you a jew depending on how much jewish "blood" you have.

but thanks for more of your insane jew-hating lies.

go back to stormfront.


----------



## jillian

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Duck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sidestep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You made unsubstantiated claims. Now you are ducking providing any proof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What exactly is the "one state solution"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is the cause if your befuddlement?
Click to expand...


the fact that he's so full of anti-semitic insanity that he isn't capable of thought.


----------



## montelatici

There is nothing antisemitic about criticizing the treatment of non-Jews by the Israeli Jews.  What is a criminal mindset is your support of Jewish oppression of non-Jews.


----------



## Hollie

montelatici said:


> There is nothing antisemitic about criticizing the treatment of non-Jews by the Israeli Jews.  What is a criminal mindset is your support of Jewish oppression of non-Jews.


Except that you rabid Jew haters don't understand that Islamics are the oppressors. Even the vacant minded such as you are capable of looking at past history and current events to see what politico-religious ideology is retrograde, oppresseses and enslaves.


----------



## P F Tinmore

*VIDC: Conference: State Formation in Palestine. Panel 1/3: Alternatives to Partition *

**


----------



## abu afak

Whenever I seed PF Tinhead showing at the end of a string..
I KNOW it's a Boobtube withOUT a word.
Tinhead is a Non-conversant TROLL.
.


----------



## Challenger

abu afak said:


> Whenever I seed PF Tinhead showing at the end of a string..
> I KNOW it's a Boobtube withOUT a word.
> Tinhead is a Non-conversant TROLL.
> .


...says a non-conversant troll...


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Transforming Palestine/Israel into a Single, Secular, Democratic State with Equal Rights for All *

**


----------



## Hollie




----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Hollie

The case of Islamics for Islamist terrorism.


----------



## flacaltenn

*Started out as a great thread. Descended into senseless name-calling and personal crap. 

Closed. May still be warnings issued...  Don't do this.. *


----------

