# Alcoholism



## Larsky (Nov 1, 2019)

Has it affected you, a family member, loved one?

I've seen my share over the years. 

Hope I don't regret this post.


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## Hossfly (Nov 1, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Has it affected you, a family member, loved one?
> 
> I've seen my share over the years.
> 
> Hope I don't regret this post.



Started drinking at 14. I quit drinking in May 1994 after 40 years of heavy drinking. Going on 26 years of sobriety.


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## deannalw (Nov 1, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Has it affected you, a family member, loved one?
> 
> I've seen my share over the years.
> 
> Hope I don't regret this post.




Gads.

I've seen far more than I ever wanted to.


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## deannalw (Nov 1, 2019)

Hossfly said:


> Larsky said:
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That is pure gold, Hossfly. Good for you.

I'm struggling everyday right now, with my brother who lives with me.


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 1, 2019)

Hossfly said:


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Drinking again..I love the whiskey


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 1, 2019)

deannalw said:


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You kick your brother out..

He will probably die


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## Ridgerunner (Nov 1, 2019)

I am fortunate as alcohol was never a problem for me... I have done some drinking in my time but was never something I chased around... Don't get me wrong as I have an addictive personality and have been down some lonesome roads... I haven't had a drink in over 10 years... I really can't remember the last drink I had... Strange how we as human beans are built different... 

 Hoss...


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## deannalw (Nov 1, 2019)

bear513 said:


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I won't kick him out.


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## bluzman61 (Nov 1, 2019)

Hossfly said:


> Larsky said:
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Congrats, Hossfly!


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## Hossfly (Nov 1, 2019)

deannalw said:


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My wife and daughter joined Al-Anon and talked me into going to rehab. It worked. Al-Anon is for non-drinking family members. Here's a link.

Help and Hope for Families and Friends of Alcoholics


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## deannalw (Nov 1, 2019)

Hossfly said:


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Yeah... I know, he's been drinking since he was very young and it seems we've tried everything in the years since. But thanks very much and any and all help should be posted anyhow. 

I am so glad for you Hoss. I know it's hard to admit and quit.

I haven't tried a witch. Some kind of curse or something, lol.


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## Hossfly (Nov 1, 2019)

deannalw said:


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I would try Al-Anon. Many recovering alcoholics attend the meetings and give valuable advice. They talk about the dos and don'ts and how to cope. There will be a local chapter near you.


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## Larsky (Nov 1, 2019)

It is terrible. And it is a disease. Nobody chooses to behave insanely. But it is manageable. Kudos to those who got in front of it, and those who support them.

Going through it now. Not fun.


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## deannalw (Nov 1, 2019)

Hossfly said:


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I used to go back in Cali. Maybe you're right and I should look for one here.


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## Larsky (Nov 1, 2019)

Hossfly said:


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Getting pushback on the religion thing. The higher power and such.


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## bluzman61 (Nov 1, 2019)

Larsky said:


> It is terrible. And it is a disease. Nobody chooses to behave insanely. But it is manageable. Kudos to those who got in front of it, and those who support them.
> 
> Going through it now. Not fun.


Good luck to you, sir.  I've been an alcoholic since my late teens (I'm 58 now) and I've learned how to live with it.  Most of the time I'm able to abstain from drinking.  But other times, not so good.  I've accepted that it's something I'll have to deal with for the rest of my life.


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## Ridgerunner (Nov 1, 2019)

Larsky said:


> It is terrible. And it is a disease. Nobody chooses to behave insanely. But it is manageable. Kudos to those who got in front of it, and those who support them.
> 
> Going through it now. Not fun.



Best of luck to you Larsky …  A wise man once said... "One day at a time"...


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## Jitss617 (Nov 1, 2019)

I turn into sam Adams when I drink kicking the red coats asses.. only problem is Boston is a police state now, and alway get in trouble lol


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## aaronleland (Nov 1, 2019)

I'm not an alcoholic!

Fucking pieces of shit!

Eat a dick!

I'm sleepy...


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## deannalw (Nov 1, 2019)

Larsky said:


> It is terrible. And it is a disease. Nobody chooses to behave insanely. But it is manageable. Kudos to those who got in front of it, and those who support them.
> 
> Going through it now. Not fun.




Not fun is right! 

You know... back when James and I married and still knew everything there was to know... this is the life we planned. Almost. It's almost perfect. Then it's this way instead. 

I will never turn my back on him and I still haven't given up on hope and ideas. I still think of kicking his ass up around his elbows though.

And I have the best husband on the planet.


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## deannalw (Nov 1, 2019)

aaronleland said:


> I'm not an alcoholic!
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> Fucking pieces of shit!
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Is that you, Matt!?

Asshole!


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## Larsky (Nov 1, 2019)

deannalw said:


> Larsky said:
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The difference between sober and drinking is overwhelming.

It's hard to have to view trust as anything less than second nature. I am guardedly optimistic.


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## Blues Man (Nov 2, 2019)

Larsky said:


> It is terrible. And it is a disease. Nobody chooses to behave insanely. But it is manageable. Kudos to those who got in front of it, and those who support them.
> 
> Going through it now. Not fun.



It is not a disease.

It takes commitment to become addicted to alcohol.

In my experience ( my mother was an addict and it killed her) most addicts are nothing but selfish and narcissistic and when the world which they believe should be all about them doesn't live up to their expectations they drink or smoke or shoot up.


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## sparky (Nov 2, 2019)

What's it to _you_, if i _choose_ to die of something i _like_ to do....?   ~S~


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## Larsky (Nov 2, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> Larsky said:
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If it was only that simple. In most addicts, the inner hard wired pleasure and reward center of the brain gets hijacked, putting the drug or drink on top of the list ahead of food, shelter, sex, etc. 

But at the end of the day, it's the addict's conscience decision alone that decides the outcome. 

IMHO


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## Blues Man (Nov 2, 2019)

It takes commitment to become addicted to alcohol 

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## Larsky (Nov 2, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> It takes commitment to become addicted to alcohol
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Noted.


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 2, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> Larsky said:
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It's a disease,  start drinking vodka or whiskey for a week and then try to stop..

.


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## Blues Man (Nov 2, 2019)

bear513 said:


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I have

And it takes longer of daily drinking than a week to become addicted to alcohol 

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## Wyatt earp (Nov 2, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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LMFAO....no kid you haven't and you couldn't keep up with me either.


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## Manonthestreet (Nov 2, 2019)

Brother went thru rehab...…...business pressures were part of reason,,,,,then it just became a habit. ...no one knew til they posted he was in rehab.


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## Katniss (Nov 2, 2019)

deannalw said:


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Your brother has to want to be sober.   He's not ready yet and he may never be.   I'm sure you already know this.  I recommend checking out Al-Anon as Hoss suggested.  It will help you cope and also help you set boundaries.  Good luck


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## karpenter (Nov 2, 2019)

bear513 said:
			
		

> *...and you couldn't keep up with me either.*


Yep
That's The Mindset How You Do It


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## Katniss (Nov 2, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> Larsky said:
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Yes, alcoholism is a disease and it is genetic.  Someone can be sober for years and take one drink and fall back into drinking endlessly because it's not about whether a person drinks everyday but rather not being able to stop once you take that first drink.

My father was an alcoholic and his children suffer from the same disease.  Some chose to stop drinking while others did not.  It sounds like you're angry with your mother and that okay.  You have every right to be angry.


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## Tresha91203 (Nov 2, 2019)

Still on the roller coaster. I was living the dream until Husband fell into the bottle. I stuck a few years and supported us, but he wasnt interested in working and he was getting violent. I finally bailed. Dealing with property settlement now and its ugly. Apparently Im the bad guy.

Alcoholism steals your loved ones and replaces them with hostile, clingy emational vampires.  Prayers for you and yours.


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## OldLady (Nov 2, 2019)

Larsky said:


> It is terrible. And it is a disease. Nobody chooses to behave insanely. But it is manageable. Kudos to those who got in front of it, and those who support them.
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> Going through it now. Not fun.


All the best, Larsky.  It will get better.


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## Blues Man (Nov 2, 2019)

bear513 said:


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So it's not that alcoholism is a disease but rather that you think life is a drinking game 

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## Blues Man (Nov 2, 2019)

Katniss said:


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Bullshit

It's always a choice

The problem with groups like AA is that they convince people they are powerless over booze. 

Like I said my mother was an addict and all addicts are selfish 

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## Rocko (Nov 2, 2019)

One of my best friends is a functioning alcoholic. She has pills she can take that will make her sick if she drinks, however she doesn’t take them because her excuse is she needs a shot that will have the same effect as the pills but it last for a month. Her insurance won’t cover the shot, so instead of taking her pills daily she does nothing and caves into the drinking urges she gets nearly everyday.


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## Disir (Nov 2, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Has it affected you, a family member, loved one?
> 
> I've seen my share over the years.
> 
> Hope I don't regret this post.


My grandfathers, father, step-father, siblings, cousins, ex-husband and his siblings. My ex has stage 4 liver disease. 

It's a journey.  People, places, things.  

Got a playlist?


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## Larsky (Nov 2, 2019)

Disir said:


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Yes I do.


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## Larsky (Nov 2, 2019)

Rocko said:


> One of my best friends is a functioning alcoholic. She has pills she can take that will make her sick if she drinks, however she doesn’t take them because her excuse is she needs a shot that will have the same effect as the pills but it last for a month. Her insurance won’t cover the shot, so instead of taking her pills daily she does nothing and caves into the drinking urges she gets nearly everyday.


Vivitrol.


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## deannalw (Nov 2, 2019)

sparky said:


> What's it to _you_, if i _choose_ to die of something i _like_ to do....?   ~S~




I believe people have the right to live and die as they please. 

Unfortunately, they usually negatively affect so many others lives in their freefall.


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## RodISHI (Nov 2, 2019)

Thankfully that bug never got me and alcohol makes me sicker than can be. If it didn't I could see where one could become addicted very easily. 

I have family members that are addicts and it is very hard on their children. Some went from alcohol to drugs and a few didn't survive into their 30's. One a younger cousin left behind a 2 year old son. Her addict boyfriend murdered her. Such a shame and a loss. She was a very pretty girl. Her son is an adult at this point and I have no clue how he turned out. My only nephew is forty now and he struggles daily to stay sober and clean (both of his parents started out drinking and went to drugs).


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## Disir (Nov 2, 2019)

RodISHI said:


> Thankfully that bug never got me and alcohol makes me sicker than can be. If it didn't I could see where one could become addicted very easily.
> 
> I have family members that are addicts and it is very hard on their children. Some went from alcohol to drugs and a few didn't survive into their 30's. One a younger cousin left behind a 2 year old son. Her addict boyfriend murdered her. Such a shame and a loss. She was a very pretty girl. Her son is an adult at this point and I have no clue how he turned out. My only nephew is forty now and he struggles daily to stay sober and clean (both of his parents started out drinking and went to drugs).



My ex sister in-law drank daily from the time she was a teenager, like my ex. She drank hard liquor, moved up in her career to where she called the shots and worked out of her home for the most part.  She did other drugs but she alcohol was her thing. She had quit drinking and she and her partner had split up. She drove to her partner's home, shot her and then shot herself. Her car was found a few blocks away with 10 cell phones, guns and ammunition in the car. She fell into that tiny percentage that had a psychotic episode when she quit. She had made random phone calls to family members and made some paranoid statements. 

Don't think the prospect of my ex quitting didn't scare the hell out of me.


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## OldLady (Nov 3, 2019)

What's the difference between an alcoholic and a drug addict?

An alcoholic will steal the $20 bill from your jacket.
A drug addict will steal the $20 bill from your jacket and then spend two hours helping you hunt for it.


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## Katniss (Nov 3, 2019)

OldLady said:


> What's the difference between an alcoholic and a drug addict?
> 
> An alcoholic will steal the $20 bill from your jacket.
> A drug addict will steal the $20 bill from your jacket and then spend two hours helping you hunt for it.



There is truth in reality.  hahahahaha


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## Polishprince (Nov 3, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Has it affected you, a family member, loved one?
> 
> I've seen my share over the years.
> 
> Hope I don't regret this post.





Alcoholics do have a hard time, no doubt about it. A friend of mine who is now deceased got pinched for DUI and was given a choice between 30 days in jail or being condemned to 30 AA meetings. He took the latter as he would have lost his job if he had gone to jail.  The tales he would tell about AA scared him straight.   He never got busted again.


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## Treeshepherd (Nov 3, 2019)

I'm a huge fan of beer, wine, brandy, rum, tequila, whiskey and gin. I have enough experience to know where my threshold is, in terms of exactly how many drinks I can pound before it will negatively effect my work performance the next day. I love and appreciate my job, which seems to check and balance my love of drinking. 

I live a few minutes walking distance from bars, breweries and a liquor store. Sometimes I'll run out of drink around 10pm or something, think about walking to the liquor store on a resupply mission. The only thing that stops me is my passion for our company and the burning desire to grow better weed than our competitors. Weed helps too. I'll convince myself that I don't need another drink because I can smoke a bowl instead.

I was married for 10 years and lived with girlfriends for long stretches of time. In those circumstances you either have to be drinking partners or non-drinkers, doesn't work to have one of each. Now I live alone, and after my 2nd DUI I sold my truck and decided not to pursue getting my license back. Bicycle commuting ensures that I get 40 minutes of exercise at least 5 days a week, and keeps the beer belly to a minimum.

I am an extreme introvert. I get a healthy amount of socialization at work, I like to hang with friends maybe twice a week, the rest of it is me time. It's a selfish life, a narcissistic life, and I am a selfish and narcissistic person, maybe that's why I like to feed my beer hole so often. Maybe I'll want to live with a woman again at some point in the future, at which point I'd probably need to stop drinking. But I'm really enjoying how stress-free my social life is right now. I've never been so at peace


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## Disir (Nov 3, 2019)

What's your clean date, Larsky?


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## Larsky (Nov 3, 2019)

Disir said:


> What's your clean date, Larsky?


Not I. But the date is 08/23/19.


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## Disir (Nov 3, 2019)

Larsky said:


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Good on your peep.  It's a long haul.  I work with addicts.  They have more integrity than a whole lot of people once they have been in recovery awhile because they have to be.


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## Larsky (Dec 16, 2019)

Disir said:


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Do you encounter resistance to AA because of the god overtones?

I've tried to explain a higher power does not need to be jesus. She's 4 months clean, but that's all.


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## Gracie (Dec 16, 2019)

Hossfly said:


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I am alanon. Friends, family...all either drunks or druggies. Now? Most are sober, but it was a bitch being around them. Hence...alanon.


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## Gracie (Dec 16, 2019)

MrG refused to go to AA. Said he tried it ONCE and once was enough. All the whining and talking about the booze they drank, etc...he said it made him want a drink worse than ever. So...he didn't go a second time. He did it cold turkey. That was not fun either to be around. But he did it. Been about 12 years or so now since he quit.


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## Zander (Dec 16, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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You are woefully misinformed. Alcoholics process alcohol in the body differently than normal people, When an alcoholic drinks, he/she develops the phenomenon of craving. It is a disease. Fortunately, they can get help at AA.


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## Markle (Dec 16, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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Alcoholics are powerless over alcohol.  If they were not, they wouldn't be an alcoholic.


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## Katniss (Dec 17, 2019)

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it’s very off putting because it paints AA as a soft religious cult.  It doesn’t matter how many times someone tries to repackage “higher power” everyone knows what it means.   That is probably the number 1 worry and resistance to those seeking help.  A new term needs to be introduced as an alternative for those who roll their eyes and associate religion with weakness.


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## Likkmee (Dec 17, 2019)

aaronleland said:


> I'm not an alcoholic!
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> Fucking pieces of shit!
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## Katniss (Dec 17, 2019)

Gracie said:


> MrG refused to go to AA. Said he tried it ONCE and once was enough. All the whining and talking about the booze they drank, etc...he said it made him want a drink worse than ever. So...he didn't go a second time. He did it cold turkey. That was not fun either to be around. But he did it. Been about 12 years or so now since he quit.





Likkmee said:


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What a fantastic view.


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## Likkmee (Dec 17, 2019)

Katniss said:


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The front is cooler


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## Katniss (Dec 17, 2019)

Likkmee said:


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Wow!  That is incredible.  I haven't traveled in a couple weeks and it's making me antsy to get back out there.


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## Likkmee (Dec 17, 2019)

Katniss said:


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It's pretty nice....... I used to travel but decided to park


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## rightwinger (Dec 17, 2019)

Hossfly said:


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Congratulations


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## rightwinger (Dec 17, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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I grew up near two kids who were in foster care. Their mother was an alcoholic. The foster family had a son who was the same age. The kids lived with the foster family from the time they were five till they were adults. 

The kids were raised the same as their natural son. When they turned 18 both kids became instant alcoholics. They could not control themselves. The natural son had no problem drinking 

I think their mothers heavy drinking while they were in the womb subjected  them to massive doses of alcohol. They were born alcoholics


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## Blues Man (Dec 17, 2019)

rightwinger said:


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No one becomes an instant alcoholic it takes a long time of daily heavy drinking to become addicted 

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## rightwinger (Dec 17, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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I think those two boys were born addicted


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## Markle (Dec 17, 2019)

Katniss said:


> it’s very off putting because it paints AA as a soft religious cult. It doesn’t matter how many times someone tries to repackage “higher power” everyone knows what it means. That is probably the number 1 worry and resistance to those seeking help. A new term needs to be introduced as an alternative for those who roll their eyes and associate religion with weakness.



AA has helped tens of millions of people.  If the term "Higher Power" puts you off, or frightens you, move on to a different program.  AA works, suggesting that it be changed to suit you is insane.


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

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Well, the 12 steps are a fundamental part of many programs. The meetings themselves are used almost as an addition to- if necessary.  There are a few reasons that many people outright reject AA/NA. A lot of it depends on where people are at in their recovery. One of them is that many people feel as if there is a tendency to glorify prior substance abuse. The second reason is that there is the belief in the theory that addiction is a disease and they are helpless to control it as it's a life sentence in and of itself. Less Jesus and more on helpless and no choice forever and ever Amen.  Tell a control freak they have no choice and watch them spin out.  The brain doesn't shut off. Technically, it's about choosing not to use today and only worrying about today.  Third is the meeting itself. I mean that certain meetings work for certain people and they have to find the meeting that works for them--if one exists in that area.  Historically, AA/NA has not been very helpful for women. They don't have to collect stats because it's anonymous. They can say whatever they want. 

Recovery is a process. For anyone that is deep in their addiction and wants to get clean, they have to shut down everyone and everything they have known. They have a grieving process of saying goodbye to friends and, sometimes, family. You have to change people, places and things. People will often say they need to leave an area to stay clean. People further in their recovery will say that no matter where you go there you are. You have to change everything from the ground up: thinking, reacting, coping, and developing new interests and what constitutes fun. You have to know what your triggers are.That empty space between point A and point B can be so overwhelming.  

On top of this, the age that someone started using is often where they stopped developing mentally, emotionally etc. That right there can be a killer. Underneath that is often trauma. For many women there is a history of sexual or other abuse, (or loss, etc.) that they have yet to process. Sometimes they don't remember what events precipitated it right off the bat and have to take a little personal journey to identify it. So, if you started using at age 13 and you get clean, where is your starting point? 

Then there is the whole dealing with legal issues, employment skills, housing. My all time favorite is anxiety disorders and then substance abuse. With other mental illness and substance abuse following close behind it and intellectual disabilities and substance abuse in third place. All of the above 
happening at the same damn time. We haven't even discussed deep shame yet or re-establishing relationships. 

Walking in off the street to a meeting is not enough for many people. The same is true for programs that have counselors that are in their twenties or early thirties that have never been in recovery. Now, there are groups out there that focus on developing a community/family/friendships with others in recovery or are just women's groups. There are sober living environments where you have to do 90 meetings in 90 days. In my opinion that works best after a rehab or after a rehab and a relapse. Or your seventh trip through rehab.


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## Likkmee (Dec 27, 2019)

I need a drink


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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It's called a genetic predisposition. The language used in the link also follows the "disease" theory. If your parents, grandparents, etc. are alcoholics/addicts then you would be at a higher risk to become the same. Men are not excluded. In fact, the substance abuse by the father leading up to the time of conception also impacts the baby.   Genetics and alcoholism


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2019)

Disir said:


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Both my parents were addicts and yet I have no trouble with booze or drugs.

It takes a long time to get addicted to anything

Becoming an alcoholic takes commitment 

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## Larsky (Dec 27, 2019)

Disir said:


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It's widely recognized as a neurological disorder. Regardless of what self-proclaimed messageboard experts claim, I tend to agree. The science is there.


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2019)

Larsky said:


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Addiction is not a disease

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## Likkmee (Dec 27, 2019)




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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2019)

Addiction follows behavior

An addiction can be cured by removing the substances to which one has become physically dependent on because of long term use.



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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> Disir said:
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Were you a drug baby or did the addiction come later on down the road? 

This is FAS
Fetal alcohol syndrome - Symptoms and causes
Basics about FASDs

You can have a mom that sporadically drank or drank and didn't know they were pregnant and the screening at the time of birth comes out fine and FAS is not diagnosed. At least not right off the bat. 

It doesn't take that long to get addicted to heroin, meth, crack, fentanyl. At all.  And if you have a newborn that is going through withdrawals from name your drug they are born addicts. 

It's a higher risk. You can have five siblings born to drug addicts and 3 of them have substance abuse issues of their own and two don't have any issues. Why? Dunno. I like to call it......don't need to be hit by a mac truck to know it hurts theory.


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## Larsky (Dec 27, 2019)

Disir said:


> Blues Man said:
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dsir,
There is clear evidence with addiction and physiological changes in the brain's pleasure centers.

Still, the only real "cure" is to modify behaviors.


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Disir said:
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Yep. There is a whole lot of science that shows up. 

I think that people get hung up on the disease terminology.........because it implies a lack of responsibility/control  and that you have to diligently work a program till you die. Neither of which is true. The approach and treatment using the disease theory interferes with the science.  It's the nature vs nurture argument.


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Disir said:
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I agree and I'm not arguing that it isn't.


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2019)

Disir said:


> Blues Man said:
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It takes repeated use over a period of time to become physically addicted to any drug

No one is an addict after one use.

Addiction is a behavioral issue because it doesn't manifest if one does not engage in the behavior of repeated drug use

Marc Lewis: the neuroscientist who believes addiction is not a disease


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Disir said:
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Which is why addiction is not a disease

You can cure it by simply abstaining from the substance you are addicted to.

So if I lock an alcoholic in a room where it is impossible for him to get alcohol he will be cured

If I lock a guy with cancer in a room the mere act of locking him in a room will not cure his cancer

Cancer is a disease alcoholism isn't


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> Disir said:
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I'm thinking there are hella crack heads, meth heads and heroin addicts that would disagree with that due to the first love euphoria upon first contact. No, they wouldn't be addicts if they stopped right there and never touched it again. Even so, the disease theory is just one theory. Personally--I don't buy into the it's a disease theory but it's there and it matters only in  how an individual initially approaches treatment (and funding). The genetic predisposition can be shown independent of the disease theory because it's genetic.

I don't disagree with Marc Lewis. I'm looking for anywhere in what I have written that does.  However, no where in that article does it say that an alcoholic is cured by placing in a room and removing the ability to obtain alcohol.  Usually you win what's called a dry drunk.  Are there people that's all it takes? Sure. Can everyone do that? Hell no. You still have to come to terms with all of what I had raised before but without support-which Mr. Lewis points out.  If you are in the middle or upper classes you can afford to find a therapist. You usually have a support group. Not so much when looking at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder though. 

Either way, it's a cocktail party argument. What matters is the work that is done in between. I have argued on this forum before that you can't force or court order someone into treatment and expect that to work. You have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.


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## Hossfly (Dec 27, 2019)




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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2019)

Disir said:


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Addiction is physical not mental

If one is not drinking alcohol it is impossible for him to become addicted 

There is no such thing as a dry drunk.


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Hossfly said:


> View attachment 296960



HEY! HEY! HEY! 

Don't be cracking on my drug of choice.


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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There is such a thing. The underlying issues were not addressed. There is a mental component to it. Sometimes the thrill of scoring the drug is as much of an addiction as the drug itself.


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## Larsky (Dec 27, 2019)

Disir said:


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Dr. Kevin McCauley – Pleasure Unwoven  |  Addiction Education Society


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## the other mike (Dec 27, 2019)

Quit drinking in August 2018 .
Would love to have saved all the money I pissed ...and puked...away 
over the past 40 years.


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Larsky said:


> Disir said:
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The exact same frontal lobe that deals with time and consequences that doesn't grow in until your late twenties and can successfully be argued continues to grow through someone's 30s. Most substance abuse treatment facilities go through the areas of the brain that it impacts.  I still don't consider it a disease.I still consider the disease/nu-huh  a cocktail party argument.  What matters essentially (to me) is having the motivation to begin identifying and processing what led up to the substance abuse, identifying the triggers, recreating/rebuilding a lifestyle and support system that lifts rather than destroys, managing mental health,  dealing with the legal consequences, establishing housing and obtaining and maintaining employment because it's the really, really, really hard work portion.


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## Larsky (Dec 27, 2019)

Disir said:


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I agree with you on all those points. My point is something is _different _in an addict's brain. The drug of choice becomes the most desired thing, subconsciously deep down.

The "Why don't you just stop" argument drives me nuts. It's managing an addicted brain. (IMO)


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## the other mike (Dec 27, 2019)

Larsky said:


> I agree with you on all those points. My point is something is _different _in an addict's brain. The drug of choice becomes the most desired thing, subconsciously deep down.
> 
> The "Why don't you just stop" argument drives me nuts. It's managing an addicted brain. (IMO)


Motivation is the key.
Like when I finally quit smoking 10 years ago, it was
because a doctor advised me to.

Really I advised myself... ( long story short, in 2009 I went in for a minor out-patient hernia repair surgery and when I came to from the anesthesia, the surgeon told me I was 'having trouble breathing' and gave me some inhalers and recommended a respiratory specialist- _never even asked me if I smoked_, which I'd been doing for 31 years, just assumed he knew.. So I made up my mind right there....actually I quit 2 weeks later on July 4th and never looked back...)

So you're right - some addiction is physical but most is in your mind.


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## Disir (Dec 27, 2019)

Larsky said:


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There is something different in an addicts brain. I agree wholeheartedly.  I don't subscribe to the "Why don't you just stop" argument. You have to reach a point where you are sick and tired of being sick and tired. You have to be fed up with where you are at and your own bullshit, the bullshit of those around you, and you are ready for change. 

 It will take months and months for the brain to repair itself after you stop using meth. The world is finally coming around to recognizing that some of these folks are not just OD'ing on heroin or shooting meth by accident. It's suicide and it's intentional. 

Alcohol/drugs is such a huge part of people's lives that it impacts everything. It is tied to every single thing-celebrations, mourning, "tough days", relationships, sex.  Constant drama (real or imaginary)  ensures a never ending supply of reasons to use especially if you have an intimate partner or friendships that are based on drugs or partying.  That's the brain searching for justification and in denial that there is a problem.


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## Blues Man (Dec 28, 2019)

Disir said:


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This is why addiction is not a disease

People do drugs as an escape from their situation.  

If the brain of an addict was different then we should be able to know who will be an addict before they become addicted to anything 

An MRI or a PET scan would show something 

That is not the case



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## the other mike (Dec 28, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> If the brain of an addict was different then we should be able to know who will be an addict before they become addicted to anything


Let's just start all the kids on Ritilin at age 7, just to make sure
they'll be addicts.

(memo from Merck CEO to Pfizer CEO)


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## the other mike (Dec 28, 2019)

Here's a better one.
Flood the streets with drugs then build a lot of prisons and create a police state
and go around locking up all the addicts.

(memo from ex CIA director and VP, George HW Bush to Governor Bill Clinton of Arkansas)


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## Disir (Dec 28, 2019)

Blues Man said:


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They are currently using fMRI to study the brain. Note that they have not spent a lot of time studying five of the six networks.  Further, they have not done research on the brain before drug use. Although, it's kind of cute how they mention adolescents and addiction to marijuana or alcohol---because thats so 40 years ago. 
How Drug Addiction Hijacks the Brain | Live Science

Increased risk in intergenerational substance abuse. This is what I was talking about before.


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## Blues Man (Dec 28, 2019)

Disir said:


> Blues Man said:
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Once again we see that in addiction that all of the physical changes occur after the behavior of repeated drug use.

So it is not the brain of the person that is different before they start using

Behavior causes addiction 

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## Larsky (Jan 29, 2020)

Going on six months. There's been a couple setbacks, and a lot more to do. 

To those who reached out, and advised, many thanks.


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## Jitss617 (Jan 29, 2020)

I stopped drinking for 3 1/2 years went back it’s been issues every time I drink


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## Larsky (Jan 29, 2020)

I witnessed a total nightmare in a 10 day period. 

The fight or flight was in the air. 

I'm a fighter


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## Markle (Jan 29, 2020)

Blues Man said:


> Which is why addiction is not a disease
> 
> You can cure it by simply abstaining from the substance you are addicted to.
> 
> ...



Locking someone in a room will cause them to not drink, just as you can stop someone from breathing locking them in an airproof room.

If an alcoholic is deprived of alcohol for a year, they'll be sober, but not in recovery.  Unless the underlying cause of the addiction is addressed, the chance of a relapse or slip is almost certain.  JUST not drinking is not a solution, that's called white-knuckling.  An alcoholic is dependent psychologically and physically.  If something does not take the place of the drinking, that too increases the chance of a relapse.

Whether someone calls it a disease or not, to me makes no difference whatsoever.  Whatever works for them. works for me.


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## Larsky (Jan 29, 2020)

Markle said:


> Blues Man said:
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> > Which is why addiction is not a disease
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So. Correct. Stopping is starting.


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## the other mike (Jan 29, 2020)

Markle said:


> Locking someone in a room will cause them to not drink, just as you can stop someone from breathing locking them in an airproof room.
> 
> If an alcoholic is deprived of alcohol for a year, they'll be sober, but not in recovery.  Unless the underlying cause of the addiction is addressed, the chance of a relapse or slip is almost certain.  JUST not drinking is not a solution, that's called white-knuckling.  An alcoholic is dependent psychologically and physically.  If something does not take the place of the drinking, that too increases the chance of a relapse.
> 
> Whether someone calls it a disease or not, to me makes no difference whatsoever.  Whatever works for them. works for me.


Fear of death is a good motivator .
( Fear of liver or other vital organ damage, including brain damage with heavy, lifelong drinkers. The fear of DWI's car accidents, incarceration and so on)
Fear of destroying your marriage or losing your job for being hung over and late all the time....and so on.

Life's too short as Kobe Bryant just reminded us a few days ago.
Breathe the oxygen, smell the pine trees. Take your boys fishing before they grow up. Teach your girls how to swim and ride bikes ...If you don't grab it, life will pass you by.


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## Crixus (Jan 29, 2020)

Larsky said:


> Has it affected you, a family member, loved one?
> 
> I've seen my share over the years.
> 
> Hope I don't regret this post.




I was a heroin addict from about 1998 (pills in the beginning, then the heroin). I moved here and my first wife became a cop so no more smack. In out family everyone is a drunk. They are all Scott's. That or junkies. The drunks tend to live, not so much the junkies. I came away with allot of folks who won't look at me anymore and hepatitis c. So I was effected, it hastened the end of a doomed ass marriage (took like 20 years) and that's about it. My grown kids were all infants so they only get stories. Now I only smoke pot, eat mushrooms and pop a pain pill or two now and again. Why did I stop? Well, not because of the ex. Mostly I just don't want my kids to say I'm a filthy junky loser. Moms a cop after all.


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## Crixus (Jan 30, 2020)

Another thing I notice about folks who are all wrapped up in shit like meth, cocaine booze or whatever and that's the ability to become comfortable with being a sack of shit. They may steal some shit, and the excuse it that it was just a rich person or they were assholes and always have it coming. That, and when you are busted it's always someone else's fault. The addicts ability to blame is legendary.


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## bluzman61 (Jan 30, 2020)

Larsky said:


> I witnessed a total nightmare in a 10 day period.
> 
> The fight or flight was in the air.
> 
> I'm a fighter


Good for you, keep fighting!


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## the other mike (Jan 30, 2020)

Crixus said:


> Another thing I notice about folks who are all wrapped up in shit like meth, cocaine booze or whatever and that's the ability to become comfortable with being a sack of shit. They may steal some shit, and the excuse it that it was just a rich person or they were assholes and always have it coming. That, and when you are busted it's always someone else's fault. The addicts ability to blame is legendary.



Not that I'm condoning theft ( btw , how do they steal from rich people nowadays, with gated driveways and security cameras everywhere ?) but it occurs to me the addiction problem in this country largely could have been and can be prevented by a) ending the 'war on drugs' and legalizing most drugs b) providing free counselling and treatment for addiction c) regulating drug manufacturers so they can't flood the streets with prescription drugs and shut down the flood of heroin from Afghanistan and Mexico etc...d) harsh sentences for any individuals caught 'cooking' drugs such as  meth, ice, fentanyl or other dangerous substances.


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## Crixus (Jan 30, 2020)

Angelo said:


> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> > Another thing I notice about folks who are all wrapped up in shit like meth, cocaine booze or whatever and that's the ability to become comfortable with being a sack of shit. They may steal some shit, and the excuse it that it was just a rich person or they were assholes and always have it coming. That, and when you are busted it's always someone else's fault. The addicts ability to blame is legendary.
> ...




I don't agree with legalizing "most" drugs. In theory yeah, sure great idea, but in the end you will still have fools killing each other over dope. That and you would have allot of dead junkies. I agree with the rest. You know I tried to get the methadone, I quit that process. In the end all you are is a goddamnd slave showing up for your little bit of metered out shit. As for the stealing from rich folks, it happens and when you are in that cram of mind anyone who has $40 worth of stuff you can rip off they are rich folks. One thing I would add to your suggestions is that there are already programs and drug rehab out there. The problem is our system stuffs it full of teenagers who vape a juul in the school bathroom and homeless people.


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## bluzman61 (Jan 30, 2020)

Alcoholism sort of runs in my family.  My mother wasn't a drinker but my father was what I'd call a functioning alcoholic.  His drinking never interfered with his work.  He was almost exclusively a social drinker, I never saw him drink at home.  His social drinking away from home with his friends DID have a negative affect on his marriage.  My mother told me after I had reached my teens that my father had cheated on her as a direct result of his drinking.  I've struggled with drinking at times, but it never interfered with my work.  I drink sometimes when I'm depressed.  I KNOW it's not good to do, but I still do it occasionally.  I sometimes drink a bit too much when I'm out and I know that's definitely not a good thing.  I tend to limit my heavy drinking at home.  By "heavy" drinking, I mean more than two beers, which I don't do that often.  So, alcoholism does seem to be in my blood, so to speak.


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## bluzman61 (Jan 30, 2020)

And I did try AA, it just didn't seem to work for me.  I guess that's probably because I don't WANT to give up drinking completely.  I'd still like to have a beer or two if I want.


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## Muhammed (Jan 30, 2020)

Blues Man said:


> Larsky said:
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> > Disir said:
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It's not that simple. Cancer and addiction are both diseases.

If you lock an alcoholic in a room where it is impossible for him to get alcohol, sure he may be cured in mild cases.  However, in more serious cases he may die from acute alcohol withdrawal.


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## Crixus (Jan 30, 2020)

bluzman61 said:


> And I did try AA, it just didn't seem to work for me.  I guess that's probably because I don't WANT to give up drinking completely.  I'd still like to have a beer or two if I want.




AA has lost its way. All it is is a place for probies to meet up and party. Got to say though, it really works for those who commit to it. Honestly it's just about figuring out what's up and addressing it. They way I look at it is of you are doing whatever and have to lie about it then you probably have an issue.


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## Blues Man (Jan 30, 2020)

Markle said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Which is why addiction is not a disease
> ...


If you deprive any addict the substance to which they are addicted for a sufficient period of time then the addiction is remedied and no longer exists.

Of course if the people who are no longer addicted choose to engage in the behaviors that cause the addiction that is their choice it is not a disease I would rather say it is a syndrome


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## Blues Man (Jan 30, 2020)

Muhammed said:


> Blues Man said:
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Addiction is not a disease.  Addiction is the result of repeated use of a substance or drug which causes biochemical and physical changes in the body and that physical dependence takes time to manifest.  It takes a protracted period of very heavy drinking to become addicted to alcohol.

A person can get cancer regardless of their behavior  one cannot become an addict without engaging in the behaviors that cause addiction


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## the other mike (Jan 30, 2020)

Blues Man said:


> Addiction is not a disease.  Addiction is the result of repeated use of a substance or drug which causes biochemical and physical changes in the body and that physical dependence takes time to manifest.  It takes a protracted period of very heavy drinking to become addicted to alcohol.
> 
> A person can get cancer regardless of their behavior  one cannot become an addict without engaging in the behaviors that cause addiction


One exception I can think of is second-hand smoke.
Both my parents smoked all the time in the house, in the car, wherever -- and by the time I tried my first cigarette at 15, I was almost immediately hooked . ( in other words I was essentially a smoker before even starting...my body was already craving nicotine )
Fortunately, I quit 30 years later and it's been 10 years now. (Going on 2 years for alcohol)

Are some addictions like alcoholism hereditary ? Probably but I'd guess most
of them are environmental. If you separated crack baby twins, sent one to a well-adjusted middle class family in Toronto and the other to an orphanage in Brooklyn, it's not hard to guess how each would turn likely turn out.


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## the other mike (Jan 30, 2020)

bluzman61 said:


> Alcoholism sort of runs in my family.  My mother wasn't a drinker but my father was what I'd call a functioning alcoholic.  His drinking never interfered with his work.  He was almost exclusively a social drinker, I never saw him drink at home.  His social drinking away from home with his friends DID have a negative affect on his marriage.  My mother told me after I had reached my teens that my father had cheated on her as a direct result of his drinking.  I've struggled with drinking at times, but it never interfered with my work.  I drink sometimes when I'm depressed.  I KNOW it's not good to do, but I still do it occasionally.  I sometimes drink a bit too much when I'm out and I know that's definitely not a good thing.  I tend to limit my heavy drinking at home.  By "heavy" drinking, I mean more than two beers, which I don't do that often.  So, alcoholism does seem to be in my blood, so to speak.


My mom drank Lite beer (every day)and smoked Marlboro Light 100's for almost 30 years
and died of pneumonia at 47. Now, anyone can get pneumonia, but healthy people generally 
don't die from it, at least not since penicillin came along. I've outlived her by 11 years so far.


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## WinterBorn (Jan 30, 2020)

Hossfly said:


> Larsky said:
> 
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> > Has it affected you, a family member, loved one?
> ...



Good job, Hossfly!!    Stay at it and stay sober!!


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## Blues Man (Jan 30, 2020)

Angelo said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Addiction is not a disease.  Addiction is the result of repeated use of a substance or drug which causes biochemical and physical changes in the body and that physical dependence takes time to manifest.  It takes a protracted period of very heavy drinking to become addicted to alcohol.
> ...



While Second hand smoke has health effects I have never heard anyone claim they were addicted to it.  You grew up with smokers so the behavior was modeled and you had some acclimation to the smoke itself.  It is the behavior that leads to addiction.  Stop the behavior and the addiction will disappear

No one is a born addict.

Both my parents died early deaths due to alcohol and drug addiction  my father when I was 4 my mother when I was 14.

I have had no issues with drugs or alcohol


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## Pilot1 (Jan 30, 2020)

I have been witness to more Nicotine addiction, both smoking and vaping than alcoholism.  Although I did lose a friend to alcoholism and prescription drug abuse who was driven to suicide because of it. 

It's not drinking or drugs that is the problem.  It is the life pressures that people use alcohol and drugs in which to escape.


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## Blues Man (Jan 30, 2020)

Pilot1 said:


> I have been witness to more Nicotine addiction, both smoking and vaping than alcoholism.  Although I did lose a friend to alcoholism and prescription drug abuse who was driven to suicide because of it.
> 
> It's not drinking or drugs that is the problem.  It is the life pressures that people use alcohol and drugs in which to escape.



nicotine itself isn't much worse than caffeine.  It's all the added shit and combustion by products that kill you


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## Likkmee (Jan 30, 2020)

I think cigs kill due to the temp of the smoke burning tissue on the way in.Gotta snort Bacardi 151 daily to salve the burnz


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## Muhammed (Jan 30, 2020)

Blues Man said:


> Muhammed said:
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You sure are a hard learner. A disease is a disease, regardless of the cause.


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## Pilot1 (Jan 31, 2020)

I don't believe that Alcoholism, or any other drug addiction is a "disease".  That is a way of removing accountability from individuals.  It is often a lack of coping skills, and just an escape for people with weak character using it as an excuse to not deal with reality.


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## Blues Man (Jan 31, 2020)

Muhammed said:


> Blues Man said:
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Addiction is not a disease



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## Muhammed (Jan 31, 2020)

Blues Man said:


> Muhammed said:
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*disease* (dĭ-zēz´)   a definite pathological process having a characteristic set of signs and symptoms. It may affect the whole body or any of its parts, and its etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown.

Dorlands Medical Dictionary:disease


You are a hard learner because you simply cannot admit to yourself when you are clearly wrong. That's why you did so poorly in school, dumbass.


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## Blues Man (Jan 31, 2020)

Muhammed said:


> Blues Man said:
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What is the definition of addiction?



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## Blues Man (Jan 31, 2020)

Muhammed said:


> Blues Man said:
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addiction

_*Definition
Addiction is a persistent, compulsive dependence on a behavior or substance. The term has been partially replaced by the word dependence for substance abuse. Addiction has been extended, however, to include mood-altering behaviors or activities. Some researchers speak of two types of addictions: substance addictions (for example, alcoholism, drug abuse, and smoking); and process addictions (for example, gambling, spending, shopping, eating, and sexual activity). There is a growing recognition that many addicts, such as polydrug abusers, are addicted to more than one substance or process*_.

Where in that definition does it say addiction is a disease?

now compare that to the definition of cancer from the same source

cancer

_*Cancer is not just one disease, but a large group of almost 100 diseases. Its two main characteristics are uncontrolled growth of the cells in the human body and the ability of these cells to migrate from the original site and spread to distant sites. If the spread is not controlled, cancer can result in death.*_


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## Muhammed (Jan 31, 2020)

Blues Man said:


> Muhammed said:
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What disqualifies it from being a disease, Mr. hard learner?


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## Blues Man (Jan 31, 2020)

Muhammed said:


> Blues Man said:
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What in the definition says addiction is a disease?  Surely if addiction was a disease it would say that in the definition.  

The definition of cancer clearly states it is not just one but a collection of diseases.


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