# Making animal rights and biocentrism a major political topic



## AlexWA (Nov 13, 2012)

What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?  

Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life? 

This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.


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## chikenwing (Nov 13, 2012)

Why would one want to.


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## AlexWA (Nov 13, 2012)

chikenwing said:


> Why would one want to.



The same reason people want gun control laws, abortion laws, seat belt laws, healthcare, fishing laws, power usage rules, social programs, and other issues addressed and talked about...they care about the issue and see the importance of it. For example I would consider animal rights to be more important than spending billions of dollars on a new attack helicopter.


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## flacaltenn (Nov 16, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
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> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
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> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



You can already decide to go to a BETTER regulator and buy only Kosher or Halal meat products. 

We don't have much leverage on the crack whore mom who's abusing her kids. Not likely we're gonna get a *political* solution better than demanding slightly more humane treatment.

Go see what 4H and Future Farmers are doing. You might be surprised how much that helps..


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## there4eyeM (Nov 18, 2012)

What rights do humans wish to ascribe to other animals (rights being a human invention)?


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## flacaltenn (Nov 18, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> What rights do humans wish to ascribe to other animals (rights being a human invention)?



Humane treatment in our interactions with all other conscious beings on the planet. It's already mostly there in our current law. It existed in the Old Testament Bible.  We just need consumers and animal owners to help strengthen the rules.


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## there4eyeM (Nov 19, 2012)

Increasing awareness and consciousness in our own species is the basic issue. That alone will eliminate the largest part of our problems. Setting up a separate battle for cats and trees will only defuse energy even more. All the struggles for rights for this group and that cause makes it seem things are divided and apart when they are one.


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## Colin (Nov 19, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
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> *Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant?* Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
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> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



Nothing wrong with you being a vegan...until you start to force your views about meat eating onto others. Then you start to sound like just another PETA extremist.


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## GlobeOtter (Nov 19, 2012)

I'm not a vegetarian so take my views for what they are. I don't think standing in streets with shocking images will work, it hasn't done anything for abortion.

I think Michael Pollen and movies like Food Inc have at least given the other views in a reasonable way. Nothing in the movie was too shocking but reasonable. Education is probably a better way to go instead of condemnation.


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## AlexWA (Nov 19, 2012)

Colin said:


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an extremist to one person is a well intentioned and ethical person to another. If forcing views on someone through media, guilt, or other forms of communication ends some of the obscenely cruel treatment many people and companies direct towards animals then that's a necessary evil in my opinion.


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## farmer (Nov 19, 2012)

Have you ever visited a farm ? No not what peta calls a farm I am talking about a real farm. One like mine , a small place where my wife and I try to make a living doing what we love -milking cows. We work 12-20 hour days growing feed ,cleaning barns, milking,checking the girls at 2 am because we heard a weird noise in the maternity pen . I know my cows are happy and i don't want or need someone who doesn't have a clue making new rules or laws .


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## AlexWA (Nov 19, 2012)

farmer said:


> Have you ever visited a farm ? No not what peta calls a farm I am talking about a real farm. One like mine , a small place where my wife and I try to make a living doing what we love -milking cows. We work 12-20 hour days growing feed ,cleaning barns, milking,checking the girls at 2 am because we heard a weird noise in the maternity pen . I know my cows are happy and i don't want or need someone who doesn't have a clue making new rules or laws .



I have been to a farm before, not a milk cow farm but to a farm with animals in it yes.


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## Scorpion (Nov 19, 2012)

Alex, you should be more concerned about the slaughter of humans around the globe rather than the slaughter of animals.
If you can convince the masses to stop the first, your chances of convincing them to end the second increase.
Though it could be a hard sell.  I love cow.


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## Intense (Nov 19, 2012)

AlexWA said:


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That's just it. It's Your Opinion, which becomes an offense to others, when it is imposed without regard or imposed by decree. You have every right to your perspective on the fair and ethical treatment of Animals. Best to live by example and try to educate. Matters of Conscience belong to Each of Us, Individually, in part that translates to Us Not being able to force feed against Someones will. Government by the consent of the governed does have consequences, both good and bad. Stupidity is on the list.


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## Colin (Nov 20, 2012)

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Terrorism isn't the answer.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Scorpion said:


> Alex, you should be more concerned about the slaughter of humans around the globe rather than the slaughter of animals.
> If you can convince the masses to stop the first, your chances of convincing them to end the second increase.
> Though it could be a hard sell.  I love cow.



I'm concerned about both


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Intense said:


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Ideas, perspectives, political stances, and opinions are imposed on people every single day.  Showing people the cruelty behind certain businesses and practices is free speech and in many cases necessary in my opinion.


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## Intense (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


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All change starts from within. Volunteering is generally always a good thing. Doing something, helps in more ways than one.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

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I'm not doing any terrorist activities and neither does PETA. I do not agree with every single thing that PETA does and i am not even a paying member of PETA, but I do agree with many of their stances but that does not make me a terrorist nor does it make PETA a terrorist group. You are thinking of organizations like the animal liberation front.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Intense said:


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I have and still do volunteer for a number of causes in the Seattle area. My concern for humans though is less due to the fact that in many cases humans have the ability to help themselves and control their own destiny whereas animals and our environment are at many times at our mercy. We experiment on animals, we use them as entertainment, and we enslave them for various uses. We pollute and destroy the Earth due to humans misguided belief that we are the superior species that has dominion over everything. It it those areas of concern in my opinion that need to be changed, not my point of view.


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## Intense (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


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Within reason. When reason is abandoned, one ends up doing more harm than good to their cause. You don't want to give your cause a black eye, nor your movement a bad reputation. Private Property, Privacy, are Unalienable Rights, when yours is under attack, I'm sure, you realize the injustice of the offending action. Even here, for Example, Graphic Images are Moderated, to Protect, not from reality, but, shock and hurt, among other things. Permanently Scaring the unsuspecting, with shock value, weighing against permanently slamming shut channels of communication as a result, serves what end. 

Even now, your message of protecting animals against abuse, even more humane ways of animal slaughter, is side tracked by the discussion of why should you be permitted to say or do anything that you perceive will further a cause.


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## Intense (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


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My concern here is your method, not your cause. "Anything goes" just does not fly, further, it sometimes gets people hurt.  As for free will and self determination, why is it then that so much is spent on advertising? Why, even, are so many political conversations, reduced to parroting 30 second sound bites, repeatedly. We are so beyond, even being able to use our own words.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

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Most people have no idea where their meats came from and how it was processed. Thanksgiving is coming up for example. Millions of turkeys are being killed right now in preparation for the holiday. People choose not to know because if they know then they will feel guilt. I think sometimes it is necessary for people to be shown something without knowing it is coming so that they are confronted with what happens. 

Not all instances are appropriate of course but the majority in my opinion are. If more people knew the cruelty behind the meat processing business and even in the scientific community with regards to research on animals I think they'd probably understand where animal rights activists are coming from. Not everybody of course since some people have no problems with the process and with animal testing.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

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I am not out to physically hurt anybody. All I am saying is that people should be exposed sometimes to what animal cruelty looks like and how people contribute to that cruelty by being apathetic.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

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Wouldn't the world be just such a better place if everyone just listened to you and did exactly what you say?   Aren't people just impeding peace and harmony because they don't?

That's an indication of deep neuroticism.   Humans ARE the superior species.   It isn't cows, or elk, or tigers or housecats or even dogs.  It is human beings.   We cannot, however, destroy the Earth.   There are limits.   The Earth is quite capable of taking care of itself.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


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Humans claim to be the superior species but the only species that understands the claim that we make are humans. It is out of arrogance that humans pretend to be superior. All living organisms on this planet have value and contribute to the Earth. Earth itself is one massive living organism that relies on plants, animals, environmental cycles, and so on to survive. Humans are the only species that willingly does things to destroy and damage the Earth. Elf do not build smoke stacks, Bears do not dump car oil into rivers, Hemlock trees do not discard plastic bags into the ocean. The Earth is very powerful and can take care of itself, but only to an extent.


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## eflatminor (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism...



You're free to eat twigs and bark for all I care.  Leave the rest of us alone.  I'm going hunting...for real food.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

It's a question of whether the unbalanced practice of veganism leads to an unbalanced mind and an unstable mental state.  Or, whether it is people who are already unbalanced that become vegans.  I've known a lot of vegans and pretty much across the board they believe they can personally save the earth.  Mostly by telling other people what to do.    People who eat balanced diets don't reach this degree of neuroticism.   Many times, the offending vegan is very young and have the certainty of their lack of maturity it back up their specious claims.   Quick, ask a teenager while they still know everything, is more than a joke.  It's a fact of life.  The error is in attributing an importance to bizarre ideas that they shouldn't have.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> It's a question of whether the unbalanced practice of veganism leads to an unbalanced mind and an unstable mental state.  Or, whether it is people who are already unbalanced that become vegans.  I've known a lot of vegans and pretty much across the board they believe they can personally save the earth.  Mostly by telling other people what to do.    People who eat balanced diets don't reach this degree of neuroticism.   Many times, the offending vegan is very young and have the certainty of their lack of maturity it back up their specious claims.   Quick, ask a teenager while they still know everything, is more than a joke.  It's a fact of life.  The error is in attributing an importance to bizarre ideas that they shouldn't have.



Well that was a nice way of indirectly calling me mentally unstable, immature, bizarre, and neurotic. You do not have to eat meat, kill animals, or pollute the Earth in order to be considered stable and mature.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


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You do to have to consider these important political topics.  The error is in attaching an importance to bizarre ideas that they should not have.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

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So i should only attach importance to political issues that are traditional issues or that what you and people like you deem to be important??? My beliefs and what I deem to be important are not bizarre to a whole lot of people.


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## Ernie S. (Nov 20, 2012)

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food won't protect us from bad guys.
Yes *food*. Does broccoli have rights? Or only food you consider soft and cuddly?


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

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They are important TO YOU and to the small group you belong to.   You have attached an importance to animal rights and earth rights that is far beyond that of everyone else.   It is the same kind of bizarre thinking that attaches importance to an on-line game or the activities of extra terrestials.   These are matters of great importance to the individuals, although not widely held.   Looking for the approval of others to what is your personally held opinion is what is immature, bizarre and unstable and yes, neurotic also.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

You make choices in your own life that you perceive benefits you.   It becomes both bizarre and unbalanced when you tell others to do the same thing as you are doing and even worse should you seek to pass laws advancing your personal decisions as the decisions that should be made for others.


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## GoshDarnItToHec (Nov 20, 2012)

Are you a libertarian?


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 20, 2012)

My point of view ... grew up on a family farm, got a blue ribbon at the county fair for my calf, have participated in the slaughter of family owned animals and have toured two slaughterhouses, including the "kill floor", am very physically active, have more energy than I did in my 20s, feel great every single day, come from a family whose every member, except me, has heart disease, obesity, diabetes. I have two siblings left, both of whom have had heart attacks and are now diabetic and very obese. Two old sibs have died of heart attacks as did both my mother and father. And, I've been vegetarian/vegan for more than 30 years. I don't consider myself vegan because I do occasionally eat dairy away from home. (Yes, I know its bad for me but, sometimes, it can't be helped.)

There are three reasons why people stop eating meat: 
1. Health: as in my case, with such a strong history of meat-eating-related illness, it would be stupid for me to eat animals. 
2. Environment: The growing, transporting and slaughter causes more harm to our planet than any other activity. 
3. Ethical - because, no matter how cruel you think it might be, you cannot imagine the reality of our "food animal" industry.

None of this is new or unknown. One would have to live under a rock or in a cave not to know that eating meat is not a good thing and that it has been found to be a causative factor in many diseases. Its like smoking - there are lots of reasons NOT to do it but not one reason to do it. 

Yes, I know that some would argue this but, again, just like smoking, there are many who just don't want to know or change their own lives. That, of course, is an individual choice. 

If you don't want to go veg, consider cutting back. If you have kids, you know that children as young as two years old have been found to have elevated cholesterol due to the high fat American diet. Why not have one day a week where you serve only healthy food? Or, cut the portion size. 

There are any number of websites showing the facts of meat eating. If you want to know, start with Earth Save, the site of John Robbins of Baskin-Robbins. In his book, Diet For A New America, he writes of telling his father and uncle that he could not live with making money off of a product that tortures animals, harms the planet and poisons children. He was, of course, disowned -- until his uncle died of heart disease and he and his father finally 'made up'. The book was nominated for a Pulitzer the year it was written. He has since written several other books - all are well worth reading. 

If you don't know or don't believe the incredible degree of cruelty involved in our food animal industry, check out meetyourmeat.com. Someone above mentioned Thanksgiving turkeys. The turkeys we eat can't even reproduce themselves. They are all produced by artificial insemination. 

Someone else mentioned a family owned dairy farm. Fact is, family farms are an endangered species. Most animal AND vegetable raising is now done by huge corporations and on an assembly line basis. Most of the workers are illegals (not usually from Mexico but some are). They are treated as bad as the animals and they have no  legal recourse. IOW, we are running a third world right here in the US. Back when Americans were hired by slaughterhouses, the turnover was 300%. Now, the huge mega-corp's are making a bigger profit, charging the consumer more and taking work away from Americans. if you eat meat, you are supporting that. 

And, someone mentioned hunting ... I live in an area where there is a lot of hunting and I grew up with hunting. One one hand, I have no use for the reality of hunting and I've seen enough of it to last me my whole life. OTOH, I almost admire anyone who is willing to do their own dirty work. BUT - killing and cleaning a deer is a little girl's tea party compared to an assembly line slaughterhouse. 

Slaughterhouse meat is diseased and filthy. Look up "fecal soup" or as the workers call it, "shit soup" and think about that when someone says they have a stomachache after stuffing themselves with dead turkey on Thursday. Thanks to the R, there are very few inspectors. Years ago, I remember that they had, on average, 3 seconds to inspect a carcass and they did not inspect every single one. That means you're eating all sorts of things that you would not eat if you knew about it. And, if the R get their way, there will be even less accountability from the big corporate farms.   

Don't make the mistake of thinking there is nothing "good" to eat if you don't eat chunks of charred bodies.  

Consider this: a meat based diet gives you 4 choices ... dead cow, dead pig, dead bird and dead fish. Take that limitation off your plate and you suddenly find you have literally thousands of choices. And, its very easy and much cheaper to eat a gourmet vegetarian diet than to eat what is considered a normal American fat-based diet.

If you don't want to know any of this, then don't. You have that choice.

You could not pay me to eat a piece of dead animal.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

GoshDarnItToHec said:


> Are you a libertarian?



No.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

I respect someone making the decision in their own lives as to whether or not to eat meat.   Making that decision for me is where I draw the line.   It's like the people who think the way to nirvana is to live gluten free.  It's okay to make that decision for yourself, not good to want to pass laws banning bread.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 20, 2012)

About animal "rights". 

They don't have any.

Humans have "rights" because they fight for them. No one gives rights to humans. They only take away rights because that's the nature of "rights". (Pisses me off to see people saying that "god" gives us rights. That demeans the incredible sacrifice our soldiers, present and past, have made for the rights we argue about every day.)

That doesn't mean we should torture other living creatures for fun, profit or food. We are human beings and we SHOULD be better than that. 

If consumers, as a block, said they would not buy what is produced by animal growers, transporters and slaughterhouses, the industry would change over night. 

If we're going to eat dead animals, surely there is no reason why we can't demand that it be produced humanely and safely and that the end product is safe to feed our children.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 20, 2012)

Many people are ignorant about the reasons to avoid gluten. Most who don't eat gluten are allergic to it. 

"Nirvana" is baking one's own bread instead of gagging down the garbage sold by such places as WalMart.

BTW, the lovely brown color of factory-produced baked goods is the result of a substance made from the urine of dead animals. If bread says it has 'added fiber', it used be that sawdust was added. I believe that may be against "regulations" now but maybe not. I don't eat that crap so I haven't kept up with the regulations.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> Many people are ignorant about the reasons to avoid gluten. Most who don't eat gluten are allergic to it.
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Good for you!   Just don't want to pass laws regulating what other people can eat.  After all, if women can take injections to lose weight made from the urine of pregnant women, people can certainly eat something made from animal urine if they so choose.  

The liberal problem comes down to what is always the liberal problem.  Equality.   It's the idea that if they like it, everyone should like it, we're all equal and the force of law is necessary to achieve such equality.   Equality and freedom are mutually exclusive terms.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> About animal "rights".
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On that we can agree.   Except that I believe that when experimentation for medical purposes is necessary it should be done on prisoners not animals.


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## syrenn (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
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> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
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How do i think about this matter.....

first... do you or anyone you know use prescription drugs? Would you be happy going through or watching a long painful death of yourself or anyone you know? 

if you dont want to eat meat.... have at it. But stop pushing your peta agenda onto others.


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## syrenn (Nov 20, 2012)

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I consider people before i consider animals.


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## syrenn (Nov 20, 2012)

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so i guess you are peta.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 20, 2012)

In point of fact, our medical knowledge has been slowed by the use of animals. 

Read Hans Reusch, among others. You'll learn that we use animals for reasons that have nothing at all to do with gaining medical knowledge.


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## syrenn (Nov 20, 2012)

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i beg to differ... peta does participate in terrorist activities.


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## nodoginnafight (Nov 20, 2012)

A wild animal will inflict damage and pain to a human when it serves its purpose. Many will even eat humans given the chance. And humans do the same to other species as well as to other humans if pushed far enough.

I don't think our ancestors scratched and clawed their way to the top of the food chain only to reliquish that position out of guilt.  I don't want animals to be treat sadistically - they are for us to use, not abuse.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 20, 2012)

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Me too. 

That's why my kids and g'kids will never eat dead animal in my home. If they choose otherwise, that's their decision but I love them way too much to feed them something I know is harmful to their health. So far none of them do eat dead animals.


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## syrenn (Nov 20, 2012)

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and i have zero issue with that....  I would though, if you were forcing your personal choices onto others.


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## Colin (Nov 20, 2012)

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Seems you know little of the organisations you support! Peta DOES support terrorist actions...



> PETA, or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, is the most well-known animal rights group in the world. For decades, PETA has labored for the well being and rights of animals, with an ultimate goal of "total animal liberation." Unfortunately for America, and the world, PETA has become something entirely un-American: a group dedicated to inflicting fear, terrorism, violence, and suffering upon humanity.
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> PETA: When Animal Rights Becomes Terrorism and Crime - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com



Once again, thanks for confirming your support of terror tactics to force your views on others.


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## jillian (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
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> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



i love animals. we should be kind to animals. anti- animal cruelty laws are a good thing b/c they're the right thing morally.

but animals have no "rights".... and most PETA types are loons.

thanks


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## jillian (Nov 20, 2012)

Colin said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > Colin said:
> ...




PETA also supports lying if it suits their agenda. if you look at the book Animal Liberation, by Peter Singer, it discusses how lies are justified if it advances the cause.

personally, i think if you have to prevaricate, maybe you have nothing to say.


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## Connery (Nov 20, 2012)

To afford animals various rights is to ascribe a level of intelligence and reason they simply do not have. Children are not afforded various rights for the same reason they simply cannot reason certain situation until they reach a particular age. Nevertheless, animals  have the right not to be abused and be well cared for by their owners.

For example, Animal Welfare Act | Animal Welfare Information Center and ASPCA | State Animal Cruelty Laws

Legislating what people should eat, compelling  people to learn about nutrition or  forcing them to witness what occurs at a slaughter house would be a failed experiment and borders on a fascist type of government intervention.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 20, 2012)

Colin said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > Colin said:
> ...



Just to be clear ... 

Alexa very clearly stated that she does not support everything PETA does.

Saying that she supports "terror tactics" is not in keeping with what she has written. 

Further, I didn't see that she said she wants to force others to agree with her on this issue.

Even so, none of this addresses the issues that she and I wrote about. Interestingly, no one has really addressed those issues other than to say they believe we should not be cruel to animals while also saying they "support" cruelty by eating meat and other animal-use activities.

You can't have it both ways.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> Colin said:
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> 
> > AlexWA said:
> ...



thanks I was just about to mention some of those points


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Colin said:


> AlexWA said:
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> > Colin said:
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I don't support terror tactics


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Connery said:


> To afford animals various rights is to ascribe a level of intelligence and reason they simply do not have. Children are not afforded various rights for the same reason they simply cannot reason certain situation until they reach a particular age. Nevertheless, animals  have the right not to be abused and be well cared for by their owners.
> 
> For example, Animal Welfare Act | Animal Welfare Information Center and ASPCA | State Animal Cruelty Laws
> 
> Legislating what people should eat, compelling  people to learn about nutrition or  forcing them to witness what occurs at a slaughter house would be a failed experiment and borders on a fascist type of government intervention.



We are all species of animal with various skills and deficiencies. What we describe as being "smart" is relative. What we consider to be smart for humans does not always translate accurately to other animal species. Just because a black bear can't build a two story home does not mean it is entitled to treatment that is less than what we would want for ourselves, friends, or family. Put a human in the wilderness and that human is far dumber than the animals that call that specific wilderness home. FYI humans are not that smart. Humans destroy their own planet knowing full well what they are doing....not smart.

I am not calling for legislation that says you can't eat meat, although I would be happy to see that legislation happen. It would never pass though. People SHOULD be knowledgable about how they get their meat however. If a nine year old eating her hamburger knew that a cow was killed to make that burger and if the child witnessed that slaughter then that child would probably not be so thrilled anymore to eat that burger after seeing the cruelty involved.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

jillian said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> ...



Being kind to animals is more than helping a turtle cross the road. When you sit down on thursday to have your turkey remember that it was raised to be killed.


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## Montrovant (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > To afford animals various rights is to ascribe a level of intelligence and reason they simply do not have. Children are not afforded various rights for the same reason they simply cannot reason certain situation until they reach a particular age. Nevertheless, animals  have the right not to be abused and be well cared for by their owners.
> ...



There is a difference between making bad decisions and lack of intelligence.  Do you believe that animals, faced with the possibility that they were destroying the planet, would either understand what that meant or care?  Or do most animals simply live with no real understanding of the world?

This is not to say animals should be looked at as unworthy of protection, rather it is just to argue against the idea that humanity is not more intelligent than most or all animal species.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 20, 2012)

Montrovant said:


> AlexWA said:
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> > Connery said:
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Humans are animals and a pretty large minority apparently lack the intelligence to see that they are destroying the planet.


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## Colin (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Colin said:
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> > AlexWA said:
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Yeh, right!


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Colin said:


> AlexWA said:
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> > Colin said:
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Why don't you try focusing on the topic and not me


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## jillian (Nov 20, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> Montrovant said:
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> 
> > AlexWA said:
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seriously?

you know, i love my rabbit. he's a great pal... affectionate, sweet, loving.

but he isn't the equal of my son.


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## alan1 (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Being kind to animals is more than helping a turtle cross the road. When you sit down on thursday to have your turkey remember that it was raised to be killed.



That turkey is serving its purpose, just like the corn, sweet potatoes, green beans, etc.  All were raised to be killed and eaten.


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## alan1 (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? *Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow* before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



I'm kind of opposed to forcing people to do anything like that.  I am unsure why you think force is a valid option.

Oh, by the way, I grew up raising sheep, goats, hogs and all manner of fowl for the dinner table along with a family vegetable garden.

I don't need to experience heroin to understand that it is a nasty drug to be addicted to.  Again, i am unsure why you think experiencing something is necessary to understand it.


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## Nightson (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.




I admire the honesty of your beliefs and apparent commitment to them. That said, this is an issue that lacks much traction either in the minds of the masses or the elected officials who represent them. Americans thrive on variety, nowhere is this more apparent than when it comes to food. Unfortunately for your belief system or whatever is the underlying motivation behind your chosen lifestyle (vegan), meat is a food most Americans--myself included--cannot imagine living without consuming. 

Average response to "shock" deterrents such as images or tours of slaughterhouses, or animal experimentation documentaries likely inflict at best a temporary abstention of the behaviors that offend you. Aversion therapy is definitely not the way to go, nor could I imagine legislation advocating its use taken seriously, let alone passing into law. 

I consider myself an animal lover. Our dogs are without doubt full fledged members of the family, and yet I also consder their lives expendable should certain conditions arise. What I think would tip the scales toward animal equality and away from us viewed strictly as their sentient "masters" is either scientific breakthrough in the study of animal intelligence or the emergence of a second sentient species in our world ecosystem. But even then, I think turkeys would still be on the hook.


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## Montrovant (Nov 20, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> Montrovant said:
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> 
> > AlexWA said:
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And yet still have more intelligence than any other species.....

Again, until you can show me that your dog understands the effect it's actions may have on the environment, or that a cow understands it is destined to be my dinner, the idea that other animals are on equal footing with humans when it comes to reasoning and intelligence is absurd.  Mistaking compassion for animal life with equality in intelligence is, in itself, a stupid thing.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Montrovant said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
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Somethings intelligence or ability to reason does not determine its value or right to life. All life on this planet has something to contribute to the super-organism that is called Earth. To say that just because the human species is able to do certain things that another species can't do therefore the human species is now superior and has dominion over the other species is not only arrogant but incredibly vicious. Intelligence the way we see it is a human invention. Basically an animal's intelligence is determined based on a comparison to what we deem intelligent, that being a comparison to human intelligence, and from that determination we impose value and worth onto those animals. We are basically an animal acting as a speciest dictator to the natural world just because we can add 2+2 and get 4.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > To afford animals various rights is to ascribe a level of intelligence and reason they simply do not have. Children are not afforded various rights for the same reason they simply cannot reason certain situation until they reach a particular age. Nevertheless, animals  have the right not to be abused and be well cared for by their owners.
> ...



Children used to be involved in the slaughter themselves.    At one time, that nine year old would be learning how to field dress a deer.    They ate just fine.   I remember having made it to Granddad's farm in 1958, my 7 year old cousin killed the chickens we had for dinner.   It did not spoil his appetite one bit.


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > Connery said:
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Times change. Hopefully future generations start to see that killing other animals is unnecessary.


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## syrenn (Nov 20, 2012)

jillian said:


> luddly.neddite said:
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> 
> > Montrovant said:
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did ya name him hasenpfeffer?


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## syrenn (Nov 20, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Montrovant said:
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> > luddly.neddite said:
> ...



the aids virus has a right to life then...... any problem with it moving into you and living out its life? 

how about some ebola.... it has a right to live out its life too with your reasoning. 

Damn.... you do know that yeast is a living thing.... how about bread? Should we be killing the yeast by roasting it to death? 

I am also pretty darn sure plants are living.... and yet... do you eat them? How do you know they do have just as many feelings as animals?


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## AlexWA (Nov 20, 2012)

syrenn said:


> AlexWA said:
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Trying to compare viruses, bacteria, and disease to my argument is just ridiculous. My opinions are sincere and my own personal beliefs. Your comments are not and are meant to mock. Comment on the conversation at hand and leave the ridiculous comparisons to another topic.


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## Colin (Nov 21, 2012)

jillian said:


> Colin said:
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> > AlexWA said:
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Did you know that PETA, those wonderful animal liberation folks, kill most of the animals they rescue?



> People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals killed more than 95 per cent of animals in its care last year at a Virginia shelter, a shocking new report states.
> 
> The report, released by non-profit consumer group, claims that PETA - which is known for its outspoken stance on animal rights - were responsible for the deaths of nearly 2,000 adoptable animals last year alone.
> 
> ...



So much for animal rights!


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## Colin (Nov 21, 2012)

Lets think about what the world would be like based on the goals of people like AlexWA. For a start there would be no farming of cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens or any other livestock. There would be no meat, eggs or milk, no cheeses, yoghurts or creams in our grocery stores. Apart from losing a major part of our food supply, farmers around the world would lose their livelihoods. The jobless totals would increase significantly.
Fishing and hunting would become criminal acts and materials such as leather and fur would be banned. Welcome to a world of plastic shoes! All zoos would be shut down with the result that the conservation and preservation work done by many zoos in maintaining species that only exist in captivity would end. And, if you factor in the goals of PETA,  we would have no pets!
Now wheres my eggs and bacon!


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## syrenn (Nov 21, 2012)

Colin said:


> Lets think about what the world would be like based on the goals of people like AlexWA. For a start there would be no farming of cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens or any other livestock. There would be no meat, eggs or milk, no cheeses, yoghurts or creams in our grocery stores. Apart from losing a major part of our food supply, farmers around the world would lose their livelihoods. The jobless totals would increase significantly.
> Fishing and hunting would become criminal acts and materials such as leather and fur would be banned. Welcome to a world of plastic shoes! All zoos would be shut down with the result that the conservation and preservation work done by many zoos in maintaining species that only exist in captivity would end. And, if you factor in the goals of PETA,  we would have no pets!
> Now wheres my eggs and bacon!



you do realize that bacteria, viruses, yeasts and molds are ..... living organisms. They should have a right to live. 

how about plants... they are living too....don't they have a right to live?


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## AlexWA (Nov 21, 2012)

Colin said:


> Let&#8217;s think about what the world would be like based on the goals of people like AlexWA. For a start there would be no farming of cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens or any other livestock. There would be no meat, eggs or milk, no cheeses, yoghurts or creams in our grocery stores. Apart from losing a major part of our food supply, farmers around the world would lose their livelihoods. The jobless totals would increase significantly.
> Fishing and hunting would become criminal acts and materials such as leather and fur would be banned. Welcome to a world of plastic shoes! All zoos would be shut down with the result that the conservation and preservation work done by many zoos in maintaining species that only exist in captivity would end. And, if you factor in the goals of PETA,  we would have no pets!
> Now where&#8217;s my eggs and bacon!



My goal is not to force a vegan lifestyle on people or force PETA's philosophy onto people. Would I love it if people could see the cruelty that we inflict on animals and change their way of living, of course, but I am realistic enough to know that not everybody, people like you for example, are capable of a vegan lifestyle or seeing animals as more than just test dummies for products, food for barbecues, and disposable property for entertainment. 

With regards to your pet comment I have a dog that lives in my apartment with me that I rescued from abandonment, so from that alone I am not saying that you can't have pets, but it should be for the right reasons. Zoos are a double edged sword as well. They do help breed endangered species which is great but at the same time they keep animals behind cages for human entertainment. I am not saying shut them down, but their practices should be adjusted in my opinion.  

I know you want to try and cast me as some sort of eco-terrorist but you are basing that on just a very few comments on mine regarding animals and the environment. You can be for something with a lot of passion and motivation without being a "terrorist". For example I did a summer semester working with Greenpeace in Washington a couple of years ago when I was in college and at no point did we radicals do anything evil or dangerous, nor were we taught to be evil or dangerous. I have never been arrested at any the various environmental protests and rallies that I have attended since high school. The only thing that comes close is that i've been what the police call "detained" before but released a short time later, so I don't go around causing harmful trouble or doing illegal things. I think that sometimes a person needs to challenge barriers and confront with a loud voice and action towards established ways of thinking but you will not see me physically harm anybody.


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## syrenn (Nov 21, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> My goal is not to force a vegan lifestyle on people or force PETA's philosophy onto people. Would I love it if people could see the cruelty that we inflict on animals and change their way of living, of course, but I am realistic enough to know that not everybody, people like you for example, are capable of a vegan lifestyle or seeing animals as more than just test dummies for products, food for barbecues, and disposable property for entertainment.
> 
> With regards to your pet comment I have a dog that lives in my apartment with me that I rescued from abandonment, so from that alone I am not saying that you can't have pets, but it should be for the right reasons. Zoos are a double edged sword as well. They do help breed endangered species which is great but at the same time they keep animals behind cages for human entertainment. I am not saying shut them down, but their practices should be adjusted in my opinion.
> 
> I know you want to try and cast me as some sort of eco-terrorist but you are basing that on just a very few comments on mine regarding animals and the environment. You can be for something with a lot of passion and motivation without being a "terrorist". I have never been arrested at any the various environmental protests and rallies that I have attended since high school. The only thing that comes close is that i've been what the police call "detained" before but released a short time later, so I don't go around causing harmful trouble or doing illegal things. I think that sometimes a person needs to challenge barriers and confront with a loud voice and action towards established ways of thinking but you will not see me physically harm anybody.



first off.... you have a goal. That is agenda. 

the agenda... your goal...as you clearly stated....is to force people to view and or slaughter animals.... to make them see where there meat comes from. To change them by guilt or disgust. 


so ive asked you before...lets try again..

do you or anyone you know use over the counter or prescription drugs? 
How about makeup, hair products or deodorants?


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## AlexWA (Nov 21, 2012)

syrenn said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > My goal is not to force a vegan lifestyle on people or force PETA's philosophy onto people. Would I love it if people could see the cruelty that we inflict on animals and change their way of living, of course, but I am realistic enough to know that not everybody, people like you for example, are capable of a vegan lifestyle or seeing animals as more than just test dummies for products, food for barbecues, and disposable property for entertainment.
> ...



Physically forcing someone to watch or view is different from making it difficult for them not to see something. I am not saying we should take a person against their will and force them into a chair and show the footage of cruelty but people should know what happens behind the scenes. Every day people get bombarded with advertisements and marketing strategies. I am wanting that same thing but for a better purpose.

As for your question of course I know people that use those products. Any product that is tested on animals or that come from the use of animals is wrong in my opinion. I don't deny using products at one point in my life that were like that but now I try my best to use products that are not.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 21, 2012)

The nobility of the environmentalist.   How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.


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## syrenn (Nov 21, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> > AlexWA said:
> ...



you still have agenda... peta agenda. You have a goal. You state your goal. 

As to your friends... i hope you are haranguing them as murders and animal abusers for using said products.  

When your friends are in pain or dying...i hope it it is you who withholds lifesaving or pain revealing drugs..... show them all the photos and videos you want... and tell then they are bad people when they beg you with pain filled eyes. 

next time you see an aids patient... or a kid dying of cancer... tell them how bad they are for using animal tested drugs.... how wrong they are.  

when its your turn to be in pain, or sick and dying.... be sure to not to take any drugs to save your life.... im counting on you to stay true to your agenda. 



sorry... all peta supporters.... are flat out hypocrites. I can almost guarantee you... you will all take the meds.... you would not deny or withhold drugs from your friends.


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## AlexWA (Nov 21, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The nobility of the environmentalist.   How can you argue with that?
> 
> What we need is an anti environmental movement.



It already exists. What would you advocate for? Air, water and soil pollution, animal testing, over fishing, puppy mills, factory farms, clear cutting and deforestation, blowing up mountain tops, reducing protected forests and land, continuing finite resources, overpopulation, human supremacy, unsustainability, nuclear waste, war, killing reefs, etc etc?


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## Colin (Nov 21, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> > AlexWA said:
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So if you were seriously ill, you would refuse life saving drugs if they were tested on animals?


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## jillian (Nov 21, 2012)

Colin said:


> Lets think about what the world would be like based on the goals of people like AlexWA. For a start there would be no farming of cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens or any other livestock. There would be no meat, eggs or milk, no cheeses, yoghurts or creams in our grocery stores. Apart from losing a major part of our food supply, farmers around the world would lose their livelihoods. The jobless totals would increase significantly.
> Fishing and hunting would become criminal acts and materials such as leather and fur would be banned. Welcome to a world of plastic shoes! All zoos would be shut down with the result that the conservation and preservation work done by many zoos in maintaining species that only exist in captivity would end. And, if you factor in the goals of PETA,  we would have no pets!
> Now wheres my eggs and bacon!



you also forgot the fact that absent hunting, herds wouldn't be culled and deer would die of starvation rather than feeding people.

we are part of a food chain. i'm ok with it.

a fish is not a rat is not a dog is not a boy


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## Montrovant (Nov 21, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > luddly.neddite said:
> ...



I didn't say that intelligence determines right to life (although I think, in the end, it kind of does, but that's a personal opinion).  If I recall, you are the one who brought up intelligence comparisons, saying something about how humans are only smart in certain ways and animals in others, in what seemed an attempt to assign value to animal life based on intelligence.

The human race IS superior in a number of ways.  That's just the way it is.  In other ways we are inferior.  Some of the ways we are superior, however, have led to our being the very top of the food chain.

I'm curious as to what you do think determines an organism's right to life.  You seem to have rejected any comparisons between the animals you seek to protect and any plants or bacteria or viruses....other than relative intelligence, what are the factors that increase the right to live in some of these things?

I am most certainly a speciesist in the sense that I consider human life more valuable than any other.  That doesn't mean, or even imply, a need to be cruel or abusive to any animals.  I've got no problem with fighting for better conditions for food animals; have at it.  We are not at a point where the world living on a vegan diet (which is entirely based on intelligence, and anti-plant speciesism, but I digress ) is reasonable.  There are still too many people around the globe starving; I certainly wouldn't consider telling them they can't eat meat if they are lucky enough to get it!


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 21, 2012)

jillian said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
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> And yet still have more intelligence than any other species.....
> 
> Again, until you can show me that your dog understands the effect it's actions may have on the environment, or that a cow understands it is destined to be my dinner, the idea that other animals are on equal footing with humans when it comes to reasoning and intelligence is absurd. Mistaking compassion for animal life with equality in intelligence is, in itself, a stupid thing.



Where in this thread, or in any other, have I even HINTED that non-human animals are the intellectual equal of human animals?


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 21, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The nobility of the environmentalist.   How can you argue with that?
> 
> What we need is an anti environmental movement.



We already do.

They're called Republicans.


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## Montrovant (Nov 21, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > luddly.neddite said:
> ...



AlexWA did, and as you were joining in a discussion involving that very topic, based on the content of your post, it seemed to imply an agreement.  Sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented your position.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 21, 2012)

jillian said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > Lets think about what the world would be like based on the goals of people like AlexWA. For a start there would be no farming of cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens or any other livestock. There would be no meat, eggs or milk, no cheeses, yoghurts or creams in our grocery stores. Apart from losing a major part of our food supply, farmers around the world would lose their livelihoods. The jobless totals would increase significantly.
> ...



Actually, deer are the biggest failure in a long line of wildlife "management" failures. Because of over hunting, they were near extinction. Then the hunters decided to manage them so they would always have them to shoot at. They starve because of something called "salad bowl management". They've managed them so badly, they're now considered vermin and are the cause of hundreds of car accidents every year. 

Also, white tail deer account for a very small percentage of animals "hunted". By far and away, most are birds. Strictly speaking, hunting is not culling because hunters try to kill the very best, biggest, strongest individuals, thus weakening the herd. 

According to the NRA, less than 6% of Americans hunt. That does not mean that 94% area against hunting however. Some people are in favor of it but don't participate. And, some are ambivalent. 

The phrase "a fish is not a rat is not a dog is not a boy" was taken out of context and originally did not include "fish". It was first said by a scientist when he was describing the nervous system of all mammals and that they feel pain just as we do. To that extent, it is absolutely accurate. In turn, he was referring to a statement made by Jeremy Bentham that we should not consider whether or not they can think but rather, that they can feel. 

Ever since the scientific phrase was repeated by Ingrid Newkirk, it has been used to mean anything but the way it was originally used.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 21, 2012)

flacaltenn said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> ...



Almost all animals slaughtered in the US are killed using so-called Kosher methods. Instead of being clean and humane as was originally intended, its incredibly cruel because captive bolt/hoist and shackle is cheap.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 21, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The nobility of the environmentalist.   How can you argue with that?
> ...



I bought a Keurig coffee maker just so I could throw away the plastic cups.   Plastic grocery bags are illegal, so I bought my own small trash bags and use them as single use bags.  I don't recycle, repurpose or reuse.  I drive a big SUV.  It's a personal rebellion.   I advocate for the exploitation of natural resources.


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## Newby (Nov 21, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Montrovant said:
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> > luddly.neddite said:
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So, you're against legalized abortion I take it?


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 21, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> AlexWA said:
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Being vegetarian negates the negative impact of ALL of those lifestyle choices.

Not to mention that you could finally lose all that weight, feel better, have more energy and be healthier while you lived a longer life. 

The word "vegetarian" comes from the Greek word, vegetare, meaning "to enliven" which comes from the Latin word vegetus, meaning " fresh, sound, or lively".

On the negative side, George Bernard Shaw complained that being vegetarian means outliving your friends. 

Leo Tolstoy like to entertain. He once had a woman tell him that she did not want to attend his dinner party unless he would serve her meat. When she arrived, she found a chicken tied to the leg of her chair. Tolstoy told her she would have kill, butcher and prepare the chicken herself as he could not and would not. 

Olympian vegetarians | Life and style | guardian.co.uk

Lst of vegan / vegetarian athletes

Kathy Freston: Healthy Living, Conscious Eating

Have you considered taking up cigarettes?


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Nov 21, 2012)

*"Making animal rights and biocentrism a major political topic. "*

A silly subject that only trivialises People's rights. I am the top of the food chain and that's the way I like it.


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## nodoginnafight (Nov 21, 2012)

The best way to encourage people to change their dietary habits is to make better food cheaper, quicker, and taste better.

People don't buy all those McDonalds hamburgers because they are concerned about a healthy, balanced diet. They do it because it's cheap and convenient and it tastes good to them (because that is what their taste buds have grown accustomed to).

If you could get fruits, leafy green vegetables, etc ... at the drive through and if they were cheap enough ... people would start eating more of it.

Eating well is more expensive and time consuming - THAT is why so few people do it.


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## 9thIDdoc (Nov 21, 2012)

_The word "vegetarian" comes from the Greek word, vegetare, meaning "to enliven" which comes from the Latin word vegetus, meaning " fresh, sound, or lively"._

Really? I have heard that "vegetarian" comes from a Native American word meaning "lousey hunter".


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## PaulS1950 (Nov 23, 2012)

Humans are omnivorous. We get certain proteins from meat and meat products that are difficult to get in enough quality and quantity in a purely vegan diet. Most vegetarians (in my experience) eat some meat - fish, eggs, cheese or other "animal" sourced foods. If you were a pure vegan you would have to eat ten times as much (by weight) as the rest of us. It takes that much more food to get the nutrition that you get in an omnivorous diet. Wolves, another omnivorous mammal, have to eat a certian amount of rodents in order to be capable of reproduction. We get enzymes, minerals, vitamins, carbs, fat, protein and fiber from meat products. We also get clothes, and other accessories from the animal world. Most of it is raised to provide meat, leather, gelatin and horn but some of us still hunt in places not called "supermarkets". I am all for being mindful of where your food comes from and respecting its participation in making your life what it is but keep in mind that animals, wild or raised rarely die of old age, peacefully in their sleep. The week and the old are culled by other animals and the injured are are fair game for everything from rodents to bears. Those beasts that are raised for food are just that... food. when it is time to havest there is no quiet way to die unless you want barbituants and poisons in your meal. A bolt gun to the back of the head is about as instantaneous as it gets and is a lot better than the old sledge hammer days. 
I respectfully thank the animals, vegatables and the minerals that provide me with life through their sacrifice as I prepare each meal and before we eat. I don't see many vegans doing that - it must be OK to kill a vegatable or rip off its leaves without a thought for what it is providing you and at what cost.
Don't tell me you are a vegatarian if you eat fish or milk products - you are only lying to yourself because I know better.


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## asterism (Nov 25, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The nobility of the environmentalist.   How can you argue with that?
> ...



Why do you use a porn model's picture as your avatar?

4 results - TinEye

NewbieNudes.com, The World's Best Amateur Nude Community - Profiles - Viewing Profile of Member: GirlNamedSam


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 25, 2012)

asterism said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



OMG, you mean that's not really syrenn??

LOL, gotta love the holler-than-thou rw's.
==================


Watching a documentary earlier about how we're trashing the whole damn planet just so we can eat dead animals, I couldn't help but notice that the rw's support the very people who benefit the most from our addiction to charred flesh. 

Is there anyone who doesn't know that most antibiotics and most "food" plants go to feed livestock?


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## Londoner (Nov 25, 2012)

Colin said:


> Nothing wrong with you being a vegan...until you start to force your views about meat eating onto others. Then you start to sound like just another PETA extremist.



I'm hoping there is a middle ground between being a PETA extremist and trying to reduce the pain we cause living things with nervous systems.


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## Colin (Nov 26, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > AlexWA said:
> ...



Where was he addressing Syrenn? If you read the post again you'll see it's addressed to Alex.


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## Two Thumbs (Nov 26, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



Since you are a biowhatsis, you should work the field on a blistering hot summer day before eating any veggies.  

From sunup to sundown.

or shut the fuck up and come down off your high horse.


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## editec (Nov 26, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.


 

I think our species is omnivorous and that a Paleolihic diet is the healthiest diet for mankind.

That diet includes a whole LOTTA MEAT, and NO GRAINS, NO LEGUMES, NO SUGAR and NO DAIRY products.

So a began diet is NOT, in my opinion (or that of many dieticians) really a healthy diet.

If you're overweight? Try giving up JUST grains. _Just try it_ for a few months.

You will start losing weight like you would not believe.

You do NOT have to be hungry, you just need to give up eating wheat, corn, rice and any other grain food.

Replace those missing calaries with PROTEIN.

You'll thank me if you do.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 26, 2012)

Colin said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



That was the point I was making. Why didn't he call out Syrenn for doing the same thing?

I'd bet that no more than a very few posters use photos of themselves. Its dumb to criticize that.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 26, 2012)

editec said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> ...



First, you need to look up the definition of "omnivore". It does not mean "Atkins diet". Nor does it mean a [sic] "Paleolihic diet" aka "caveman diet". 

What you suggest is much more extreme and radical than vegan (with a "v", not a "b") diet. IMO, we all need to say away from fad diets. 

Being vegetarian/vegan does not mean being hungry or overweight. 

And finally, our over-consumption of protein is directly related to the cause of death for most people who eat a so-called "traditional" American diet. 

I avoid dietary protein and I get my protein from the same thing you do - the essential amino acids. 

Eat what you want but don't try to say you know what you're doing and that Atkins is a healthy way to live.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 26, 2012)

Just FYI -

The Vegetarian Athlete Diet

Great Vegan Athletes | Great Vegan Athletes

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/


----------



## sealadaigh (Nov 26, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.





AlexWA said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > luddly.neddite said:
> ...




maybe instead of thinking as animals as human, you may want to think of humans as animals.

maybe also, you may want to stop thinking that humans are not superior to other animals and instead start thinking that humans are biologically a very successful species.

and yes, we are more intelligent than other animals. no other animal can control their environment, conditions, use tools, create complex languages, etc. that's our selective advantage,...intelligence.

if you want to convince people of things, perhaps you should approach the issue a bit more pragmatically and realise that people are, indeed, animals , as you claim, and try to understand human behaviour. you mention "speciest dictator" and yet, you approach the problem with a dictatorial attitude.

i do not know of any animal, and that includes the human animal, who likes to be forced. they respond to being taught. if you try to force things like this, you will be met with little success.

did you know you can opt out of the rep system? if so, why haven't you? if not, why don't you?


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## sealadaigh (Nov 26, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> > AlexWA said:
> ...



no one is stopping animal rights activists from paying for advertising or marketing.

if you want to be successful, or at least have a chance of being successful, you need to change your approach, and that applies to most animal rights activists.

here is a story. i am/was a labour activist...teamster 174, king county labor council...stuff like that. we were trying to organise the independents at the port of seattle. we were doing good, getting cards signed and all...waging a good public relations campaign and winning on that end, getting a lot of support from immigrant groups and interfaith groups. we had it in the bag.

then, some fool decided we needed a more demonstrative action so he had all these peeps spill out onto the west seattle freeway during the evening rush hour. everything went downhill after that, and went downhill fast. we never recovered and we let a lot of people who wanted to be organised down...and they had families that we let down too.

don't piss people off by being overbearing. use your head.


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## Missourian (Nov 26, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant?




Will I get a discount?


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## asterism (Nov 26, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > luddly.neddite said:
> ...



Syrenn's pic was obviously that of a public person.  I don't think that's the case with this person so I asked.  I didn't criticize, I didn't call the poster out, I merely asked.


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## Montrovant (Nov 26, 2012)

What we really need is to breed cows like the ones from the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 26, 2012)

Montrovant said:


> What we really need is to breed cows like the ones from the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.



I've said I used to live in AZ. Now I live in the midwest, cattle country. I travel a couple of days a week and drive through that cattle country. Long rolling hills of green, lots of "farm ponds", beautiful trees, birds, and all the rest. 

And, of course, "for sale by owner", bank auctions, deserted ranches -

Even so, its easy to see why so many people believe we are the land of plenty and that we can afford our "throw away" society. All you have to do is dig down just one layer to learn that -

- it takes about the same amount of water to float a battleship as it does to put a steak on your table. 

If you want to know more, earthsave.com


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Nov 26, 2012)

asterism said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> > colin said:
> ...



Oh. 

Thanks so much for clearing that up.


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## Montrovant (Nov 27, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > What we really need is to breed cows like the ones from the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
> ...



I'm not sure why you think my obviously joking one-liner deserved this response.....

How much water does it take to grow the plants you have to eat to equal the meat from that steak, I wonder?


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 27, 2012)

Montrovant said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...



The "collateral damage" argument for eating meat. I was wondering how long before someone would bring that up. 

There are a lot of holes is this ... One is that meat eaters also eat plants. That means that they eat even more plants than I do because the animals they eat also eat plants. 

Think about it. Your question is "How much water does it take to grow the plants you have to eat to equal the meat from that steak?"

I eat the plants I eat.

You eat the plants you eat PLUS the plants the "food animals" eat. 

So, the amount of water you use is enormous when compared to the amount of water I use. 

PLUS, you use other resources as well. Most of the antibiotics used in the US (other countries too) are given to "food animals". 

Meat eaters are sicker than vegetarians/vegans and meat eater's illnesses are more often fatal so they use even more resources that others must pay for. 

It might have been you who stated that vegans don't get the nutrients they need. If one eats nothing Pepsi and Cheetos, they can call themselves vegan but if one eats a healthy diet comprised of a large variety of foods, they easily get the nutrients they need. 

It used to be believed that vegetarians/vegans should "combine" foods to make sure they got sufficient nutrients. That has long been shown to be untrue. 

I'll say it again - eat anything you want.


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## Montrovant (Nov 27, 2012)

luddly.neddite said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > luddly.neddite said:
> ...



Wow, that's a lot of projecting!

I made a joking post, you replied with a serious one involving the amount of water needed for a steak.

I questioned how much water it would take for an equivalent amount of plant food, you seemingly assume I mean to argue against eating the plants, or something like that.  

You obviously have your opinion on the matter and are looking for any opportunity, real or imagined, to interject it.

Have fun with that!  

And for those who are unaware, the cows from the book The Restaurant at the End of the Universe were bred to WANT people to eat them, and would in fact walk up to the diners' table and offer various portions of themselves.


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## April (Dec 1, 2012)

AlexWA said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > AlexWA said:
> ...



Not necessarily...I think you're wrong about that.
I've seen documentaries, extremely graphic pix, etc. on what is done in processing and preparing the meat from a cow...it was disturbing to me, yes...but did it change my mind not to go to the meat market and get me some steak and hamburger meat to feed myself and my family the next day or week? 
No. 
And I know I am not the only one who does not feel "guilt" after they have seen what is done to a cow or pig or chicken to receive the meat for consumption...


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 1, 2012)

Two Thumbs said:


> AlexWA said:
> 
> 
> > What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> ...





Little Two much honesty?


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## nodoginnafight (Dec 11, 2012)

Two Thumbs said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > AlexWA said:
> ...



Little too much vitrol and vulgarity for this forum.


----------



## Abishai100 (Aug 26, 2014)

*Avatar Gel*

Native-American tribes believe that animals possess special spiritual powers.

Our modern world of industrialization has strayed away from ideas about biocentrism, naturalism, or animal spiritualism.

However, American comic books have the potential in bringing such perspectives back into the mainstream.

Naturalism or animal spiritualism American comic book avatars such as Wolverine (Marvel Comics), Hawkgirl (DC Comics), and Penguin (DC Comics) represent society curiosity about the potency of Earth, nature, and animal instincts.  Animals do, after all, exhibit extraordinary powers of tracking and hunting.

Given that the American comic book has risen in popularity in our modern era of populism-centric art (i.e., graffiti), we can posit creating a people-friendly animalism themed imaginarium avatar.

How about Herbie the the Talking Turtle.  Herbie is a turtle with extraordinary intelligence and foresight.  He roams the lands of Earth trying to understand how creatures and humans interact with Mother Nature and turmoil.

Such storyboarding lends great weight to the arena of street talk politics actually.




Penguin - DC Comics Database


----------



## Solutrean_Hypothesis (Aug 27, 2014)

Oh Em Gee, Obama, like, check yer privilege!


----------



## Darlene (Aug 27, 2014)

farmer said:


> Have you ever visited a farm ? No not what peta calls a farm I am talking about a real farm. One like mine , a small place where my wife and I try to make a living doing what we love -milking cows. We work 12-20 hour days growing feed ,cleaning barns, milking,checking the girls at 2 am because we heard a weird noise in the maternity pen . I know my cows are happy and i don't want or need someone who doesn't have a clue making new rules or laws .



Just as long as you don't take away the calves after they're born.
Calves *need *to nurse, just like any mammal. Corn products are not healthy in any living creatures' diet.


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## Darlene (Aug 27, 2014)

We are all living, breathing creatures of this earth. What we call "animals" are intelligent, thinking creatures that can feel pain, sadness, and anger.
Grief in Animals AnimalWise

Do Animals Have Emotions The Bark


----------



## Moonglow (Aug 27, 2014)

Darlene said:


> farmer said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever visited a farm ? No not what peta calls a farm I am talking about a real farm. One like mine , a small place where my wife and I try to make a living doing what we love -milking cows. We work 12-20 hour days growing feed ,cleaning barns, milking,checking the girls at 2 am because we heard a weird noise in the maternity pen . I know my cows are happy and i don't want or need someone who doesn't have a clue making new rules or laws .
> ...



newborn calves are not feed corn...


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## Moonglow (Aug 27, 2014)

Darlene said:


> We are all living, breathing creatures of this earth. What we call "animals" are intelligent, thinking creatures that can feel pain, sadness, and anger.
> Grief in Animals AnimalWise
> 
> Do Animals Have Emotions The Bark



Do you think animals give a shit when they kill a human???


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## Darlene (Aug 27, 2014)

Many calves aren't given the opportunity to nurse.

Dairy Cows on a Factory Farm

Cows Farm Sanctuary
You need to also keep in mind that I'm talking about factory farming, not small family-owned farms.


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## Moonglow (Aug 27, 2014)

Darlene said:


> Many calves aren't given the opportunity to nurse.
> 
> Dairy Cows on a Factory Farm
> 
> ...



Those are referred to as CAFO's


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## Darlene (Aug 27, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> > We are all living, breathing creatures of this earth. What we call "animals" are intelligent, thinking creatures that can feel pain, sadness, and anger.
> ...


Animal Attacks Why Increased Aggression 
I believe animals attack in order to protect themselves if they feel threatened or they're short on food.
Humans also keep expanding and therefore decreasing many animals natural habitats.
This puts them at risk because many animals are territorial and feel the need to protect what is rightfully theirs.


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## Darlene (Aug 27, 2014)

Rory Young, Professional Safari Guide, Ran... (more) Professional Safari Guide, Ranger and Tracker.Suggest Bio
378 upvotes by


Pranesh Pandurangan
Follow620
Pranesh Pandurangan,


Brian Fey
Cultural Designer
Follow6k
Brian Fey, Adriana Heguy, (more)Loading...
"There are five main reasons an animal will attack you, The first is *fear*. Cape Buffaloes are a classic example. They are really bad news. This is not because they want to eat you but because they believe you want to eat them. Why else would we be walking around on our back legs, showing our teeth and the whites of our eyes? Lions, when completely unused to people will run away when they encounter humans but of course if surprised at close range could attack out of fear to defend themselves (and then eat you as a bonus).

The second is for *food*. Lions are pure predators (forget Simba - think Dexter), unlike us who are half predator. They are geniuses at killing. When you see lions lounging around gazing at antelope in the distance, they are not goofing off, they are constantly updating their knowledge of their prey's habits. So, when they lose their fear of man they will begin to test you. There was a very sad case in a park where I once worked in Zimbabwe of a young British chap working for a fellow walking safari guide for his gap year. He left his tent slightly unzipped and was pulled out of it and killed by a lioness. In the lead up to this, several guides/rangers including myself, had close calls with lions walking right up to check us out. Normally they would let you know you were getting too close by growling, running away or even mock charging. However, walking casually up to you was not the usual MO. These lions had become so used to being approached on foot that they lost their fear of man and began to wonder if we were easy food and eventually tried.

The third is *territory*. A good example of this is hippos. They are responsible for killing more people than any other wild mammal. Most of these are unexpected attacks by territorial animals in the water. They will attack out of fear, such as when they are in the shallows, cut off from the safer deep water by a canoe or run you down if you get between them and the water when they are surprised; but most attacks are deliberate. 

The reason for the differing behaviour is due to the habits in different environments. Hippos feed on grass inland during the day and then lie up in pods, large groups squashed next to each other. If a hippo who is not from the pod approaches they will either kill it or chase it away. They'll do the same with boats.

The fourth reason is *anger*. A good example of this is when male elephants go into season. This is called "musth". They have huge amounts of testosterone pumping through them and will attack anything.

The fifth reason is to *protect their young*. In this case you need to back off quickly, walking backwards. Good luck.

P.S. I will post a story on my blog tomorrow, written by a friend who bumped into a leopard with her cubs. He was badly mauled but survived. You are actually better off being attacked by a leopard, especially in a group, as they will attack and maul each person, resulting in a number of mauled people, whereas a lion will stay on the first person till they are dead."

This is a great article.


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## QuickHitCurepon (Aug 30, 2014)

AlexWA said:


> an extremist to one person is a well intentioned and ethical person to another. If forcing views on someone through media, guilt, or other forms of communication ends some of the obscenely cruel treatment many people and companies direct towards animals then that's a necessary evil in my opinion.



Why is society so afraid of learning about such a basic part of everyone's life as how meat is raised? Any basic info about life is widely available now but not about treatment of animals.

Anyone can handle it, and it can only make them better individuals. Many will choose to eat less meat and be healthier.

Ignoring animal cruelty is wrong.


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## Unkotare (Aug 30, 2014)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?






I wonder if this nut has been eaten by a predator he was trying to hug yet.


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## Darlene (Aug 30, 2014)

Humans are animals too. Don't forget that. We are no better than any other species.


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## Missourian (Aug 30, 2014)

Eating animals is the natural order of things.  If you wish to deny nature and eat 100% roughage I have no issue with that whatsoever.  If it makes you feel better to know that I kill,  gut,  clean,  and butcher my own meat...you can now officially feel better.


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## Rikurzhen (Aug 30, 2014)

Darlene said:


> Humans are animals too. Don't forget that. We are no better than any other species.


We're much better than other species. If we're not, why are you being so unfair to the raccoons? Don't they deserve to live in your house while you go and live in the woods?


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## Darlene (Aug 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> > Humans are animals too. Don't forget that. We are no better than any other species.
> ...


That statement is completely unfounded.
I treat animals as equals. I don't even kill spiders or insects, especially when they're in their natural habitat.


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## Montrovant (Aug 30, 2014)

Darlene said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> > Darlene said:
> ...



What does it mean to treat animals as equals?  Is it simply not killing them?

If you saw a human being and, let's say, a rat trapped in a fire, and you could only save one, would you have a hard time deciding which to save?

Have you had any deeply moving discussions with a non-human animal recently?

My point is that while I've heard numerous people talk about animals as being the equal of humans, on the same level as humans, etc., I find that it isn't usually actually the case.


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## Darlene (Aug 30, 2014)

Montrovant said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> > Rikurzhen said:
> ...



Animals of a different species than our own may not be able to speak our language but they still communicate with us. They still experience the same emotions as us. For all we know, they may even be able to think complexly--but we don't know this and probably never will. You underestimate the intelligence of our fellow creatures.


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## Montrovant (Aug 30, 2014)

Darlene said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > Darlene said:
> ...



That in no way answered my questions.

What does it mean to treat animals as equals?

Some animals may experience the same emotions as humans.  Of course, since it's hard to be sure that even other individual humans experience emotions the same way we do, and since our emotions are often tied to our intellect, it seems unlikely that a crab experiences the same emotions I do. 

I can only go by the available evidence for the intelligence of other species.  There are some pretty intelligent animals out there.  Others, not so much.  However, since I cannot communicate with any other creature in the complex manner available through language, I cannot question them about their emotional or intellectual capacities, I cannot get to know them the way I can a human being, I cannot connect to them in the same ways.

I also believe that there is nothing wrong with placing a different value on different lives.  Everyone does it.  Even if you value all animal life equally, you will value plants differently, or perhaps microscopic organisms.  That being the case, I find valuing human life above that of animals perfectly acceptable.  Now, this is not an endorsement of any kind of abuse of animals.  However, I can think of no situation in which I would allow a human baby to die to save any animal.


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## Unkotare (Aug 31, 2014)

Darlene said:


> They still experience the same emotions as us.




No they don't. Stop watching so many cartoons.


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## farmer (Aug 31, 2014)

Darlene said:


> Just as long as you don't take away the calves after they're born.
> Calves *need *to nurse, just like any mammal. Corn products are not healthy in any living creatures' diet.


                                       Of course we take the calves away after they are born. We become the calves mother and by milking the cow we become the calf in the cows mind.


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## koshergrl (Aug 31, 2014)

Darlene said:


> Humans are animals too. Don't forget that. We are no better than any other species.



Define "better". We are the only species that engages in written communication, who makes musical instruments, who has placed men on the moon. We are the only species that cultivates the land, creates art (with an understanding that we are creating art...please don't call up Koko's fingerpaintings as an example of an animal being artistic). We have developed medicines and can transplant organs in order to prolong life. 

I don't mind it when people advocate for animals to a point. But when their advocacy limits itself to the ridiculous, trite meme "we're no better than Fido!" then I recognize it for what it is...progressive nutbags who feel guilty about every step they take on this earth, and every morsel of food they take in, because they think every other creature on the earth is more worthy than they are to life.

Sorry, I don't buy that. I don't give a shit if calves nurse or not. I like milk, and I like meat. I'm not concerned that the steak I'm eating was deprived of it's mom's tit when it was a newborn, resulting in mental anguish for the whole 2 years of its life.

For one thing, I know it's absolute hogwash. Having raised calves I can testify they don't give a shit.


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## boedicca (Aug 31, 2014)

One of my friends has recently converted to Veganism.  I can't fully express how boring it is to be lectured that eating meat is EVUL.  Try telling that to a mountain lion; good luck forcing one to respect little lambs and to become a vegan.

Humans are omnivores; it's natural and healthy for us to eat other animals.


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## Rikurzhen (Aug 31, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> > They still experience the same emotions as us.
> ...



This comment deserves more appreciation. You cut right to the heart of the matter.


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## Rikurzhen (Aug 31, 2014)

boedicca said:


> One of my friends has recently converted to Veganism.  I can't fully express how boring it is to be lectured that eating meat is EVUL.  Try telling that to a mountain lion; good luck forcing one to respect little lambs and to become a vegan.
> 
> Humans are omnivores; it's natural and healthy for us to eat other animals.


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## SmarterThanTheAverageBear (Sep 1, 2014)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.




animal rights  

okay animal you have the right to be petted by me if you're cute and cuddly, eaten by me if you're tasty , or killed by me if you annoy me.


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## SmarterThanTheAverageBear (Sep 1, 2014)

AlexWA said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > AlexWA said:
> ...



we in fact ARE the superior species that dominates over everything, else we'd be out in the dog pen eating alpo whilst Fido had a steak in our easy chair.


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## Abishai100 (Oct 13, 2014)

*Animal Fur*

Understanding historical context is intellectually rewarding in this issue.

The early cave man, for example, found it prudent and useful to hunt and kill animals not only for food but also for warmth-protective fur clothing.  In the modern world, the fashion industry is heavily criticized for trumpeting frivolous use of animal fur coats.  Is fashion purely frivolous or does it speak to an enduring instinct of man to camouflage his body (with clothing, etc.) to command authority among other animal species?

I think it is wise to say that the advent of cotton as a clothing material reduces the need for animal fur and unless we go into another Ice Age, man may not need to hunt animals again for warmth-protective fur clothing.

Either way, how have we appreciated the sacrificial contributions of animals during man's self-awareness evolution?







Fur - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## sameech (Oct 13, 2014)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country?



Won't happen




AlexWA said:


> In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?



Require every home to have a dog



AlexWA said:


> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop?



It will cause people to resent your cause in the same way the pix of aborted babies do.



AlexWA said:


> Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant?



Well it would certainly make them realize "Hey I should raise and slaughter my own cows.



AlexWA said:


> Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for?



My dogs like attention





AlexWA said:


> Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal?



I suspect what you consider abuse and neglect are different than what most people consider abuse and neglect





AlexWA said:


> Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?



Well that would be very Old Testament, which is not synonymous with "enlightenment" or "modernity"



AlexWA said:


> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter.



Asking how can we influence the masses and say it is not an effort to change minds seems a bit suspect.




AlexWA said:


> I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



Industrial food production is bad for our species and the planet, but it probably favors animals more than you would be willing to admit.  A lot less waste than when people have to hunt for their own survival.


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 13, 2014)

The question is not, at this time, whether or not we eat or wear non-human animals. Its how we treat them. There is no excuse for the cruelty of animal use industries. It continues because hypocritical people will tsk tsk about cruelty to a puppy but pretend they don't notice the every day and much worse torture that they cause to be done to other animals.


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## Delta4Embassy (Oct 13, 2014)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



Want animal rights to become a major political issue, the next time someone hops the White House fence, sic the dogs on them. When they tear the guy apart "saving the President" we'll start talking about animal rights as a national issue.


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## whitehall (Oct 13, 2014)

It's all about politics. Where was PETA and the Sierra club other animal rights groups when Barry Hussein signed an executive order that allowed windmill farms to keep killing migratory birds and hawks and eagles and even the occasional condor for the next 30 years?  Most of the so-called "animal rights" groups are nothing but dirty tricks political pressure groups run by the DNC.


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 13, 2014)

whitehall said:


> It's all about politics. Where was PETA and the Sierra club other animal rights groups when Barry Hussein signed an executive order that allowed windmill farms to keep killing migratory birds and hawks and eagles and even the occasional condor for the next 30 years?  Most of the so-called "animal rights" groups are nothing but dirty tricks political pressure groups run by the DNC.



Comparing a few hundred or even a few thousand to *THIS?*

TEN BILLION in the US alone. And that's just so-called "food" animals. 

Nope. You'll have to do better than that.


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## Ernie S. (Oct 13, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > It's all about politics. Where was PETA and the Sierra club other animal rights groups when Barry Hussein signed an executive order that allowed windmill farms to keep killing migratory birds and hawks and eagles and even the occasional condor for the next 30 years?  Most of the so-called "animal rights" groups are nothing but dirty tricks political pressure groups run by the DNC.
> ...


Do you eat meat?


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 13, 2014)

The sad fact is that people really don't care that they subsidize cruelty. There have been so many videos that show the reality of the livestock industry but really, people choose not to face the fact that they are the cause of what they refuse to even look at. 

People who eat meat will rant and rave about other cultures eating a relatively few dogs, they'll rant about cruelty to pets but will eat a dead animal and pretend its not the same. 


Take responsibility for what you say and do.


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 13, 2014)

Ernie S. said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



No. I have not eaten dead animals for more than 30 years.

I also do not eat dairy products or wear leather. 

I do eat eggs from a neighbor's chickens. If I did not have that source, I would not buy/eat factory farmed eggs from battery chickens.


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## initforme (Oct 13, 2014)

I am no vegan.   But I strongly belive that animals should never be abused nor neglected.  Those that abuse dogs and cats should receive the same treatment only suffer more pain.  Its called being humane.  Those sick people must pay the price.


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## koshergrl (Oct 13, 2014)

It's already illegal to mistreat and abuse animals.

Next.


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## sameech (Oct 15, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> The sad fact is that people really don't care that they subsidize cruelty. There have been so many videos that show the reality of the livestock industry but really, people choose not to face the fact that they are the cause of what they refuse to even look at.
> 
> People who eat meat will rant and rave about other cultures eating a relatively few dogs, they'll rant about cruelty to pets but will eat a dead animal and pretend its not the same.
> 
> ...



As someone who has hunted and slaughtered pigs, I think your thinking we all bury our heads in the sand is a bit naive.


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 15, 2014)

sameech said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > The sad fact is that people really don't care that they subsidize cruelty. There have been so many videos that show the reality of the livestock industry but really, people choose not to face the fact that they are the cause of what they refuse to even look at.
> ...



I stand by what I wrote. My bet is that very few do not know the meat they eat is produced with absolutely mind-numbing cruelty. They know and they choose to ignore it.

Less than 6% of our population hunts and most people live in urban areas. For many, the closest they get to a real animal is when they sit down in front of their dinner plate. For them, "meat" is bloodless, clean, pristine, wrapped in plastic and found under bright lights in a display case. Hell, many believe their tomatoes come from a grocery store and have no clue as to the reality behind their food.

Further, many people, if they think of it at all, have the image of something like Davy Crockett when they think about hunting. 

I don't have much respect for hunters because I've often seen the result of what they actually do. I doubt most people, including hunters, would be able to kill their own food if dropped off at a slaughterhouse but  peoplere willing to pay others to do it for them. Although I question the motives of many who hunt, I will give them that they are willing to get their hands dirty.


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## sameech (Oct 15, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> sameech said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX - Mod Edit, violation of CDZ rules - no insults or put downs please.

Regardless, but for hunters, a great many urban people would put their lives in their hands driving to buy their tofu as their route to the vegan store would likely involve crashing into deer.


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## AvgGuyIA (Oct 15, 2014)

farmer said:


> Have you ever visited a farm ? No not what peta calls a farm I am talking about a real farm. One like mine , a small place where my wife and I try to make a living doing what we love -milking cows. We work 12-20 hour days growing feed ,cleaning barns, milking,checking the girls at 2 am because we heard a weird noise in the maternity pen . I know my cows are happy and i don't want or need someone who doesn't have a clue making new rules or laws .


You realize that the vegan (PETA) people have been known to accuse you dairy farmers of sexually abusing your cows by milking them?  Just say in'.


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## sameech (Oct 15, 2014)

AvgGuyIA said:


> farmer said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever visited a farm ? No not what peta calls a farm I am talking about a real farm. One like mine , a small place where my wife and I try to make a living doing what we love -milking cows. We work 12-20 hour days growing feed ,cleaning barns, milking,checking the girls at 2 am because we heard a weird noise in the maternity pen . I know my cows are happy and i don't want or need someone who doesn't have a clue making new rules or laws .
> ...



Ironically enough, they also usually support abortion but claim to be concerned about the sanctity of all life.


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## AvgGuyIA (Oct 15, 2014)

I just can't take up for dumb animals over my fellow humans.  Animals are to be subjugated for the use of mankind, according to God.


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## koshergrl (Oct 15, 2014)

AvgGuyIA said:


> farmer said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever visited a farm ? No not what peta calls a farm I am talking about a real farm. One like mine , a small place where my wife and I try to make a living doing what we love -milking cows. We work 12-20 hour days growing feed ,cleaning barns, milking,checking the girls at 2 am because we heard a weird noise in the maternity pen . I know my cows are happy and i don't want or need someone who doesn't have a clue making new rules or laws .
> ...



Yes, well, the same people who say that are the people who say it's sexual abuse to confirm fetal age by sonogram....but it's just good medicine to scrape a girl's uterus without doing so.


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## Ernie S. (Oct 16, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...


So, nuts and fruit... You are what you eat, they say.


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## Ernie S. (Oct 16, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> sameech said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...


I pay others to distill the whiskey I sell. Why should I feel guilty paying others to kill the meat I don't kill myself every fall?
I feel no joy when I shoot a deer, but I do feel a certain sense of satisfaction and yes, some pride.
I hunt, I eat meat, I drink milk, I have chickens for eggs and I wear leather. I feel no shame in that whatever.


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## sameech (Oct 16, 2014)

Ernie S. said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > sameech said:
> ...



Shhhh!  Yesterday LN posted they were at the dentist.  They apparently don't mind receiving the benefit of cruel animal research.


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## Ernie S. (Oct 16, 2014)

My ex had a friend who was a vegetarian. We were invited for dinner one night (her husband loved his Porter House)
I was unaware of her affliction and wore a deerskin jacket made from hides I had shot. 
She was thoroughly appalled; called me a murderer.
I wasn't real happy but held my tongue. Later in the evening, they were showing us the rest of the house. As we walked into the master bedroom the lady mentioned that her dad owned a shoe store. She opened a closet to reveal maybe 150 pairs of shoes. I excused myself and ran off to the bathroom to laugh in private. My wife, however had some carefully chosen words for the hypocritical bitch.


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## koshergrl (Oct 16, 2014)

Good.


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## Abishai100 (Oct 20, 2014)

*Xenon Mission*

I continue to believe that the best way to promote biocentrism in our age of consumerism is to properly advertise the social value and eco-system benefits of SeaWorld.

Putting that aside, here's another nifty deed:

*Cars these days come with energy-efficient and hence eco-friendly Xenon headlights.  The light emitted from these lamps is much easier to see in fog and rainy conditions and is therefore safer for drivers and animals crossing the road at night.

This simple adjustment to your car not only makes you less 'traffic clumsy,' but it chases away the proverbial modern age 'Speed Racer Hobgoblin.'







Xenon arc lamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## sameech (Oct 20, 2014)

Abishai100 said:


> *Xenon Mission*
> 
> I continue to believe that the best way to promote biocentrism in our age of consumerism is to properly advertise the social value and eco-system benefits of SeaWorld.


 I assume you are being sarcastic there.  If not, you are truly unique among animal rights people in relation to Sea World


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## Abishai100 (May 29, 2015)

*The Zookeeper Tort*


Early man (australopithecines) ate only fruits and vegetables.  When the species changed and began hunting animals for food, man grew in size (and hunger).

Today, our fast food world of free market commercialism (i.e., eBay, Burger King, eTrade, etc.) gives rise to Wall Street tycoons and obesity problems related to unmoderated consumption.  Our Earth and general health suffers from it.

Why do we celebrate comic book avatars such as Wolverine (Marvel Comics), a mutant whose special skills of tracking and clawing make him a semi-wolf humanoid primed for hunting?  Why do we make Hollywood (USA) movies such as "The Wolf of Wall Street" (2013)?

If there is a World War III, will the frontlines be drawn around consumption propaganda?






Wolverine (Wikipedia)


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## Delta4Embassy (May 29, 2015)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.



There's no effective way to make Americans give a damn about animals when they don't even give a damn about people.


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## there4eyeM (May 29, 2015)

Not sure; seems some care much more for their dogs than their brothers and sisters.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2015)

If animals want rights they'll have to fight for them same as people.


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## Blackrook (Jun 11, 2015)

AlexWA said:


> What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?
> 
> Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?
> 
> This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.


I'm going to eat a hamburger and think about what you said.


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