# 51% chance Dems keep the Senate



## Nyvin (Apr 23, 2014)

Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.

Who Will Win The Senate? ? The Upshot Senate Forecasts ?*NYTimes.com

Improving opinion on Obamacare?   Better opinions of Obama?   Are Democrats finally getting a chance to spend money on the same level as the Kochs?    Who knows...but the trend is certainly positive for the Democrats.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

Nyvin said:


> Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.
> 
> Who Will Win The Senate? ? The Upshot Senate Forecasts ?*NYTimes.com
> 
> Improving opinion on Obamacare?   Better opinions of Obama?   Are Democrats finally getting a chance to spend money on the same level as the Kochs?    Who knows...but the trend is certainly positive for the Democrats.



Fucking skewed polls!


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 23, 2014)

Nyvin said:


> Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.
> 
> Who Will Win The Senate? ? The Upshot Senate Forecasts ?*NYTimes.com
> 
> Improving opinion on Obamacare?   Better opinions of Obama?   Are Democrats finally getting a chance to spend money on the same level as the Kochs?    Who knows...but the trend is certainly positive for the Democrats.



it's all going to come down to how much bullshit dems can generate that is believable.

last cycle they made it about everything except what was important, if they can do that again, they will keep the senate, if not, and the truth shines through, they won't


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## DriftingSand (Apr 23, 2014)

All the Republicans need to do is keep track of all the Obamacare horror stories sprouting up hither and thither.  Save 'em up and bombard the lefties at just the right time.  Document all the lies and deceit.  Remind America of the 5 or 6 years of horrible economic and employment conditions and they should be able to regain the Senate.  But again ... there is the stupid factor that Dems have on their side.  Stupid as in voters who were stupid enough to vote for a Dem in the first place.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 23, 2014)

actually looking at their 8 competitive list, it looks like they are fudging the numbers

3 are clearly going rep with 1 dem and 1 dem probable.

The other 3 are close, and considering what states are in play, it looks like a 1 seat advantage to the reps.

But

if the dems take Two of those, it's a tie, and that would please me even more.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

Nyvin said:


> Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.
> 
> Who Will Win The Senate? ? The Upshot Senate Forecasts ?*NYTimes.com
> 
> Improving opinion on Obamacare?   Better opinions of Obama?   Are Democrats finally getting a chance to spend money on the same level as the Kochs?    Who knows...but the trend is certainly positive for the Democrats.



But only if those evil Repugs won't be allowed to depress the repeat Democrat voter.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

Democrats.........


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> Nyvin said:
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Yeah. Because most American voters are imbeciles and cannot tell when they are being lied to. Right?


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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That's why it's important to stay informed.......but some dumb-asses don't want to bother with knowing the facts. 

I've talked to them. Most of these idiots are more concerned with getting sports memorabilia signed, or finding insulators.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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Absolutely. All American voters should be as informed as you. We'd be A-OK!


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## rightwinger (Apr 23, 2014)

The dire predictions of an Obamacare collapse never materialized
Neither did a failed economy

The usual GOP fear mongering will not be a factor

Dems will hold 51 seats


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> The dire predictions of an Obamacare collapse never materialized
> Neither did a failed economy
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> The usual GOP fear mongering will not be a factor
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Dude.

STFU.

It's too early to tell.

But it has ruined a lot of lives. You'll never hear about that from the state run media.

The problem will be getting the real numbers. And that will be as hard as getting these fuckers to give up info on Fast & Furious, the IRS scandal, and everything else they've done. We won't really know till Obama is gone and in hiding on some island. Then it will become a game of make believe between Democrats and Republicans.


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## Moonglow (Apr 23, 2014)

Polls are not completely 100% accurate...it is just a small segment of the population..


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## rightwinger (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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What are they going to run on?

Obamacare is a failure. Same thing they have run on for four years. Only now, 10 million voters will be covered and they will not be happy about Republicans taking it away. They will have filed claims and been covered. They will be used to their Obamacare policy

The economy is trudging along, unemployment will be in the low sixes. To a public used to 8-10 percent unemployment, Republicans will not be able to fear monger on 6 percent


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

rightwinger said:


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Obamacare is a failure.

Regardless whatever lies the administration comes up with, it's still failing. Maybe if they change it enough they can make it suck a bit less, but it's going to drive up the cost of medical care in this country to the point that we won't be able to afford it.....which belies the name Affordable Care Act. 

You see, anything Obama touches becomes more expensive.


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## Statistikhengst (Apr 23, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> The dire predictions of an Obamacare collapse never materialized
> Neither did a failed economy
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> The usual GOP fear mongering will not be a factor
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I have to disagree, on the basis of electoral history.

The statistical probability that the GOP retains the House is pretty much 100%.

The probability that the GOP gets to 51 seats is well over 70%. 4 of the 6 seats they need are pretty much guaranteed at this point in time. Of course, if they lose KY and GA, then they would need 8 seats total. 

Why is the probability so high?

Because at the end of the day, issues hardly have anything to do with it.

Traditionally, the opposition party has made sweeping gains in virtually every mid-term, ESP in a 2nd term mid-term. See: Eisenhower 1958, LBJ 1966, Nixon/Ford 1974, Reagan 1986, Bush 43 2006. The one notable exception of a 2nd term mid-term where it did not happen was Clinton 1998.

In 1958, Eisenhower (R) was at a peak in his popularity and yet, the Republicans got a pasting in the 1958 mid-terms. Ditto Reagan in 1986.


I posted these stats on January 14th, 2014, when hardly anyone was thinking about the mid-terms yet:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/elect...pared-to-presidential-terms-1855-present.html

Take a hard look at those numbers. Go to the link it provides and see the entire chart of all mid-terms since 1854 for yourself. Enlightening, the color-coding.

Electoral history stands strongly on the side of the GOP in the upcoming mid-term election.

But it does little to change anything: the Senate will be just as deadlocked then as it is now. In fact, a GOP controlled congress that starts fucking up right and left is likely to be a boondoggle for the Democratic national ticket in 2016.


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## Nyvin (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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They'll need some statistics other then "obamacare is failing"


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## peach174 (Apr 23, 2014)

I have quite a few liberal Dem friends and they are pretty pissed at what the liberal Dems are doing right now. They also say that they have had with the over reaching government.
Some are staying home, others are thinking about voting R which they haven't done for a very long time.
So I wouldn't put much stock on your poll.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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Ruined lives? Whose?


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## rightwinger (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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We all know that Fox viewers will consider Obamacare a failure. But they don't vote Dem anyway. You will have to convince people who actually have Obamacare that they need to give it up. Given that Republicans have nothing to replace it with, that will be a hard sell for 10 million voters


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

Nyvin said:


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Well, since the White House controls the statistics nobody will know, won't they?


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## peach174 (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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It almost killed my Mother who was put on generic drugs to save money and she was allergic to both of them. Then it took her two months to get her blood pressure back to normal and one time she had to go to the emergency room because her blood pressure was over 200. They said she was very close to a stroke or heat attack.


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## Stephanie (Apr 23, 2014)

good grief, anyone believe what the NYslimes puts out anymore?
well you buy into it then go gamble your life savings on it.
lots of luck


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## rightwinger (Apr 23, 2014)

peach174 said:


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Your mother?

Why would she be on Obamacare?  Wouldn't she have Medicare?


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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Well stated. Excellent use of the language.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

rightwinger said:


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Good question. I call bullshit whether the mom is 65 or not. 

Pretty low to use one's mother to try and score a dopey message board point.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

peach174 said:


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What drugs?


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## Nyvin (Apr 23, 2014)

peach174 said:


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In the time span of *four months* your mother signed up for some Obamacare insurance, roughly a month later the insurance activates, got a prescription for generic brand of drugs, started taking the drugs, and found out she was allergic....and then TWO MONTHS LATER...went to the emergency room...?

Anyone else see the small problem involving time here?


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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Thank you.

Is this the best you can do?


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

Nyvin said:


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Only that you're not asking pertinent questions. You're forming an opinion rather than ascertaining why.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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No.  But anything more is wasted on you. You are not worthy, aren't you?


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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The last election should have been about jobs, the economy, wasted and how worse things got.

But it was about utterly useless shit that has not been addressed since.

so yea, liberals believe everything the media tells them b/c they lack the intellect to think for themselves.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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You're more of a waste, and other than throwing the race-card, criticizing improper grammar, even when it was intentional, is usually what someone resorts to when they haven't a leg to stand on.

Make sure you check for proper spelling and punctuation, mkay???


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


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Sure. Everyone is stupid. The GOP can never win another election. You may have hit on something. 

How worse things got? In what respect, Charlie?


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## Dot Com (Apr 23, 2014)

Nyvin said:


> Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.
> 
> Who Will Win The Senate? ? The Upshot Senate Forecasts ?*NYTimes.com
> 
> Improving opinion on Obamacare?   Better opinions of Obama?   Are Democrats finally getting a chance to spend money on the same level as the Kochs?    Who knows...but the trend is certainly positive for the Democrats.



true. If I were a Repub-voter here, I wouldn't be doing an end zone dance just yet.  The last two election cycles, all the Dems had to do was stand back & watch Repubs implode


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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You can point to a case of me throwing out a race card? Please do. 

Your grammar errors are intentional? Why didn't you say so? Like......two years and hundreds of errors ago? I could have laughed with you instead of at you all this time!

I will have you know, by the way, that I have two legs and I stand on both.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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$17 trillion in the hole
devalued dollar
ue still high
422 tax increases
Bundy debacle
tyrannical enforcement of the aca on citizen except those that bribed their way off
you can keep your plan
you can keep your doctor
irs scandal
everyone pleading the 5th

Informed and honest people see these things and have to wonder wtf is going on.

but you don't see any of this as bad or use the excuse someone else did it, so it's ok for us to do it.

It's really sad to see what you guys give a pass to now, you are no different than the religious right, you want government to force your wants on everyone else, and don't see the tyranny.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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That's funny. 

I usually stand on my feet.......


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


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Silly list. Pick one. We'll discuss it for a minute.


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## Leweman (Apr 23, 2014)

might matter in october


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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tyrannical enforcement of the aca on citizen except those that bribed their way off


tyranny;  government through force or coercion.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


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You picked that? Too easy. 

You cannot establish that anything "tyrannical" ( tie-ran-ik-ul), took place. Therefore, this has been a very short discussion.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

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Does the BLM ring a bell?

IRS attacking political enemies isn't Tyrannical?

But traffic cones are Tyrannical?????


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2014)

DriftingSand said:


> All the Republicans need to do is keep track of all the Obamacare horror stories sprouting up hither and thither.  Save 'em up and bombard the lefties at just the right time.  Document all the lies and deceit.  Remind America of the 5 or 6 years of horrible economic and employment conditions and they should be able to regain the Senate.  But again ... there is the stupid factor that Dems have on their side.  Stupid as in voters who were stupid enough to vote for a Dem in the first place.



The electorate has not forgotten our party's responsibility for the Great Recession with some help from some of our Dem friends.

We Pubs need to run a not "me too" campaign but a "we can do it better" with real suggestions.  We have not done that yet.  We have not reached our clearly to women, Hispanics, etc.

If we don't, we for the third may not get the Senate majority that common sense dictates we should.

It is not the electorate's fault if they are not buying our message.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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Are you mental?


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


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> > All the Republicans need to do is keep track of all the Obamacare horror stories sprouting up hither and thither.  Save 'em up and bombard the lefties at just the right time.  Document all the lies and deceit.  Remind America of the 5 or 6 years of horrible economic and employment conditions and they should be able to regain the Senate.  But again ... there is the stupid factor that Dems have on their side.  Stupid as in voters who were stupid enough to vote for a Dem in the first place.
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Your party meaning lying low-life Democrats?

Absolutely. 

Why do you think nobody has done any time for it Snarkey?


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## peach174 (Apr 23, 2014)

rightwinger said:


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Obamacare regulates the drug prices for everyone who has insurance.
They want to keep the drug prices low.
Every single one of us is under the Obama care rules and all insurances and Doctors and hospitals have to follow those rules.
Unless your very rich and can pay for it with your own money.


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## rightwinger (Apr 23, 2014)

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No it doesn't. 

Individual insurance plans may encourage generic drugs to save money, but Obamacare does not mandate it. Your mother is covered under Medicare and Medicare Part D ( a Bush program) prescription program. 
Stop trying to blame every medical emergency on Obama


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2014)

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You are being mental again.

No one in the mainstream GOP gives a shit about the far right wacks like you.  That ended with body blows the Cruz and Lee foisted onto the Republicans in Congress.  Like Boehner and McConnell and Hatch and Jinall and Ryan and others have said, never again.  Why do you think the likes of Bachmann are jumping ship?  We will get better Republicans now.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 23, 2014)

peach174 said:


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You got caught lying. How do you feel?


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## Synthaholic (Apr 23, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


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You're dismissing O'Bama's luck of the Irish!


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## Synthaholic (Apr 23, 2014)

peach174 said:


> *I have quite a few liberal Dem friends* and they are pretty pissed at what the liberal Dems are doing right now. They also say that they have had with the over reaching government.
> Some are staying home, others are thinking about voting R which they haven't done for a very long time.
> So I wouldn't put much stock on your poll.



I seriously doubt that.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 23, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


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Whatever.

Who benefited from it?

Democraps. 

Follow the money. That's who was responsible for the recession. Who stood to gain the most from taking the White House? The writers and beneficiaries of the ACA. They needed a Dem to sign that piece of shit.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 23, 2014)

peach174 said:


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Then they weren't generic.


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## peach174 (Apr 23, 2014)

rightwinger said:


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Every single Insurance and Drug company and Hospital are under the new regulations.
Her Doctor said that the new Health Care Law requires Doctors to use more generic brands of drugs. In order to save more money.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, which President Obama signed on March 23, 2010, authorized the Food and Drug Administration to approve generic versions of biologic drugs.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 23, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


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Income inequality has not been addressed since?


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## Synthaholic (Apr 23, 2014)

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You're still a moron.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 23, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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Ooh!  Ooh!  I hope he picks 'Bundy debacle'!


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## Leweman (Apr 23, 2014)

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never in a serious manner


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## Synthaholic (Apr 23, 2014)

Leweman said:


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President Obama (praise be unto Him!) has used his executive authority to increase the minimum wage at companies who have government contracts.

I don't know what more he can do by himself.

What has John Boehner done about it?


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## CrusaderFrank (Apr 23, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


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Yes, Jake, your Party, the Dems caused the Great Recession.

"These two entities...." Barney Frank


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## Katzndogz (Apr 23, 2014)

The democrats worst nightmare is that in 4 years 10 million people will be enrolled in obamacare and hate it.  Have no doctor willing to see them and find out their medications aren't covered.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 23, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> The democrats worst nightmare is that in 4 years 10 million people will be enrolled in obamacare and hate it.  Have no doctor willing to see them and find out their medications aren't covered.



Right on cue with your normal idiocy and lies. And if the ten million like it, and by that time, ten million more are signed up, what then? Remember all the predictions about the economy totally tankiing after President Obama was re-elected? How has that turned out for you wingnuts?


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


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We want to win the Senate from the Dems, and you guys are going to lose it for us third time in a row.

STFU.  Please.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


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Your opinion is not fact.  Never has been.  Never will be.


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## HenryBHough (Apr 23, 2014)

A Republican majority when there are resident RINOs is even better than a clear majority for Democrats.  Then they can pass whatever they choose and blame it all on the Republicans.

You can always count on Jake and his ilk to back socialist proposals while trying to feign innocence and Republicanism.


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## whitehall (Apr 23, 2014)

Considering the source it's terrible news for the democrat party.If the best an arm of the democrat party can do is 51% it's curtains for the Hussein administration.


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## Quantum Windbag (Apr 23, 2014)

Nyvin said:


> Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.
> 
> Who Will Win The Senate? ? The Upshot Senate Forecasts ?*NYTimes.com
> 
> Improving opinion on Obamacare?   Better opinions of Obama?   Are Democrats finally getting a chance to spend money on the same level as the Kochs?    Who knows...but the trend is certainly positive for the Democrats.



Funny, 2 years ago Silver was a fucking genius, not he is a moron. I wonder what changed.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2014)

HenryBHough said:


> A Republican majority when there are resident RINOs is even better than a clear majority for Democrats.  Then they can pass whatever they choose and blame it all on the Republicans.
> 
> You can always count on Jake and his ilk to back socialist proposals while trying to feign innocence and Republicanism.



The far right reactionaries are the RINOs.  They were warned what would happen last fall if Cruz et al failed.  Cruz failed, and the far right is very unhappy it is being marginalized.  HBH is just a stereotype of the far right whiner.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2014)

We can win this for the GOP if we stop letting the far right influence the elections with their hate and rage.  Simply turns the electorate off.


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## HenryBHough (Apr 23, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> The far right reactionaries are the RINOs.  They were warned what would happen last fall if Cruz et al failed.  Cruz failed, and the far right is very unhappy it is being marginalized.  HBH is just a stereotype of the far right whiner.



Quoth the Democrat in denial.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 24, 2014)

Quantum Windbag said:


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He's not a genius or a moron.  He is a mathematician.

Why are you bitterly clinging to a Silver prediction from over a month ago?  Things change.  The success of Obamacare will only continue while positive word of mouth from family to family will build toward November.


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## Statistikhengst (Apr 24, 2014)

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I'll stick with electoral history.

But the next time RW turds try to say I'm partial, they just need to read my postings about the upcoming mid-terms.

Of course, a huge event could overturn everything - paradigms are essentially made to be broken. Only, since 1854, it has rarely been broken. And that paradigm has been unbelievably consistent AND resilient over the years, regardless of the issues (or lack of them) at hand.


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## Statistikhengst (Apr 24, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


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False.

The great recession started under a REPUBLICAN administration: the Bush adminstration.

That is very easy to prove.

The stock market imploded in September, 2008.  Remember who was president back then?


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## Statistikhengst (Apr 24, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


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> 
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> > A Republican majority when there are resident RINOs is even better than a clear majority for Democrats.  Then they can pass whatever they choose and blame it all on the Republicans.
> ...




Oh, he's a stereotype all right...


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

peach174 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



When did this happen? The ACA insurance policies didn't start taking effect until January at the earliest.

And how is the doctor giving her the wrong prescription the fault of the ACA?


----------



## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


> Does the BLM ring a bell?
> 
> IRS attacking political enemies isn't Tyrannical?
> 
> But traffic cones are Tyrannical?????



BLM was a scandal for the stupid yahoos that thought they could order a sheriff to order the federal government off the fed's own land. Not only will the democrats use it to their advantage, so will every moderate republican candidate that's running against a Teabagger.

The IRS also audited a number of left wing groups. You can't selectively edit documented history. No scandal.

And yes, Bridgegate IS tyrannical. It was a nuisance - a potentially dangerous one - that disrupted schools, businesses, and emergency services. Gov. Christie and his cronies initiated it to punish a mayor that didn't "play ball" with them, and to set an example (read: threat) to other city governments that didn't agree with him.


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## Statistikhengst (Apr 24, 2014)

Grandma said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...




Because Righties love to lie about this shit and tell sob-stories which, when held up under the microscope, do not hold up.

As of now, in the RWNJ playbook, any fuck-up on the part of any doctor is automatically "Obumbler's" fault. This is how 4th grade the issue has become on their part. It's just plain old embarrassing.


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...



You failed to answer the questions (no surprise) and you replied with nonsense.

Anyone can get non-generic meds, at a higher copay than generics. For example, my generics are $5, my brand name scrips are $30.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 24, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Frank has trouble with empirical concepts


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 24, 2014)

HenryBHough said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The far right reactionaries are the RINOs.  They were warned what would happen last fall if Cruz et al failed.  Cruz failed, and the far right is very unhappy it is being marginalized.  HBH is just a stereotype of the far right whiner.
> ...



Quoth the stereotypical RINO of the reactionary right.


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > *I have quite a few liberal Dem friends* and they are pretty pissed at what the liberal Dems are doing right now. They also say that they have had with the over reaching government.
> ...



So do I. Peach hasn't been at all clear on her imaginary friends' specific complaints.

So far she's batting zero. And making up health issues to get attention puts Peachy Weachy at the bottom of the scum barrel.


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

peach174 said:


> Every single Insurance and Drug company and Hospital are under the new regulations.
> Her Doctor said that the new Health Care Law requires Doctors to use more generic brands of drugs. In order to save more money.
> 
> The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, which President Obama signed on March 23, 2010, authorized the Food and Drug Administration to approve generic versions of biologic drugs.



Another lie. All insurance companies have always approved the use of generic drugs.


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> The democrats worst nightmare is that in 4 years 10 million people will be enrolled in obamacare and hate it.  Have no doctor willing to see them and find out their medications aren't covered.



Keep dreamin' that dream, Katz. 

Obamacare is not an insurance plan. Most people stay on the plan they've had all along. The new enrollees are on standard healthcare plans. 

The only patients that have had trouble finding doctors willing to take them have been the poor on Medicaid, veterans on VA insurance, and the elderly on Medicare. With the reforms to Medicare and advances being made on the backlog of veterans' claims, the problem isn't anywhere near as bad as you'd like it to be. It will be even less of a problem when some genuine jobs bills are put into action, getting more people off Medicaid and into regular employee healthcare.


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



No, no, please, let him talk all he wants!


----------



## LoneLaugher (Apr 24, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Yo Jake.......

You are cool and all.....but when you say "we", you are suggesting that you are OK with having idiots like Mud on your team.  What makes you think that will ever end well?


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## mudwhistle (Apr 24, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



The Butthurt in you is strong....


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## Mac1958 (Apr 24, 2014)

.

Seems to me 2014 has hinged on the ACA all along.  If the Dems and the press can paint a rosy picture while avoiding the problems with it, the election could essentially end up a draw. It's not like the GOP is presenting a boatload of reasons to vote for them.  A draw would be excellent for the Dems going into 2016.

The GOP has been taking victory laps for months now.  Bad, bad idea.

.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 24, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...


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## mudwhistle (Apr 24, 2014)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> Seems to me 2014 has hinged on the ACA all along.  If the Dems and the press can paint a rosy picture while avoiding the problems with it, the election could essentially end up a draw. It's not like the GOP is presenting a boatload of reasons to vote for them.  A draw would be excellent for the Dems going into 2016.
> 
> ...



We're trying to bounce these assholes out.

Mitch McConnell is one that needs to go.


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## Statistikhengst (Apr 24, 2014)




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## Two Thumbs (Apr 24, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



The aca forces people to buy ins or face a fine.  That's coercion
companies, except those that bribed their way out, must provide ins to full time emps or face a fine.  That coercion and corruption

in other words, it is tyranny


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 24, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



422 taxes making it harder for everyone including the poor.

but aside from that, what a bullshit diversion from what he needed to get done.

but, what 20 million unemployed people to dems?  possible future voters since they hopefully be pushed onto welfare.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 24, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



pull your head out of your ass and take an honest look at what leftist are doing.

If you can.  I doubt that you are the one honest liberal in the world, but you could be.


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## peach174 (Apr 24, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...




I am not trying to score anything.
I'm not lying.
Most of you all know me here and you know that's not how I am on this board.
I try my best to get correct information out and when I get things wrong or incorrect I say so and admit it. 
I told you what really happened to my Mom.
It is a true fact.
My Mom was on the same brand name of blood pressure medication for 15 years.
When the New Health Care Bill passed her Dr. changed her meds to 2 different types of generic drugs and it did almost kill her.
The new bill encourages Doctors to try generic drugs to save money.
I get it and it's fine if you can use the generic types.
My mother couldn't and she would have never have gotten off the meds she was on for so many years if it wasn't for the push to use generic drugs when the New Health Care Bill passed.
She is fine now but it took 2 months for her to get back to normal.
She was under quite a bit of stress because of it.
None or our senior's should have to be put under such stress because of any bills that congress passes be it Republican or Democrat.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 24, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...


Frank has trouble with the truth.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 24, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



No, it's a new regulation.

Are all new regulations tyranny?

OSHA forces brake repair businesses to use specific procedures when dealing with brake pad dust, since it contains cancer-causing properties.  

Is that tyranny?


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## Synthaholic (Apr 24, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Speaker Boehner never brought Obama's jobs bill to a vote.  And he never came up with one himself.

This is the guy who campaigned in 2010 saying "Where are the jobs, Mr. President?"

So, besides job creation, what else is this a diversion from?


----------



## Old Rocks (Apr 24, 2014)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> Seems to me 2014 has hinged on the ACA all along.  If the Dems and the press can paint a rosy picture while avoiding the problems with it, the election could essentially end up a draw. It's not like the GOP is presenting a boatload of reasons to vote for them.  A draw would be excellent for the Dems going into 2016.
> 
> ...



Seems that we saw an example of that in the not too distant pastHow many Libs committed suicide on 7Nov12?


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## Old Rocks (Apr 24, 2014)

peach174 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



When the ACA passed, it was not immediatly put into effect. You are blaming a doctor's decision on something that had nothing at all to do with that decision. I was moved to a prescription that cost less money before that bill passed, simply to save the company, Kaiser, money. It worked equally well, so was a savings for all. That is the case in most such decisions. Occasionally it does not work out.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 24, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



Excellent idea. And replace him with a Democrat


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## mudwhistle (Apr 24, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Obama's proposals are usually very expensive, so I don't doubt it.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 24, 2014)

Old Rocks said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Before 09'?


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## peach174 (Apr 24, 2014)

Old Rocks said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



My fault for not saying when this happened. I see where you think that it happened right after the bill was passed.  
It happened in January of this year.


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## bedowin62 (Apr 24, 2014)

lol left-wing nutjobs  said the same ting about the House in 2010

wait until the obamacare mandate kicks in. bye bye Dems!


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 24, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



actually, no, since it would harm another person.

moron

How is fucking a citizen over with the force of monetary fines not tyranny?

good luck in your non-response, as you are not that one honest liberal


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 24, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



no jobs bill ever succeeded, even obama thought it was funny his shovel ready non-sense made things worse.


----------



## JFK_USA (Apr 24, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Nyvin said:
> 
> 
> > Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.
> ...



Just like the 2012 election right? Karl Rove math lol


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## HenryBHough (Apr 24, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> no jobs bill ever succeeded, even obama thought it was funny his shovel ready non-sense made things worse.



"THOUGHT" it funny?

Hell, it was His joke writers who authored it.


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...




The idea of everyone paying in to offset higher usage by less healthy patients was a republican idea. As I've said before, I agree with it.
Everyone that can't or won't pay their hospital bills leave the caregivers no choice but to pass those costs onto other customers. 

Parasites like you are the definition of tyranny, you force your expenses onto MY hospital bills! Deadbeat


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Off topic post.


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## Grandma (Apr 24, 2014)

peach174 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You're still lying. Her doctor should know what drugs she's allergic to, plus her insurance company has been pushing for generic drugs all along. 

Did she fall through the donut hole? Is that why she couldn't afford her usual meds? The donut hole that the ACA _eliminated_?


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## pinqy (Apr 24, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> but, what 20 million unemployed people to dems?  possible future voters since they hopefully be pushed onto welfare.


Except there were only 10,486,000 unemployed in March 2014. Even if you add in all those who say they want a job, but aren't doing anything about it or couldn't take a job if offered, that would bring it up to 16.6 million.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 24, 2014)

Grandma said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


lying ****

I don't pass my bills onto others.

Aside from that, you fucking ignorant skank, having the government force people to comply is not freedom.

but your to fucking dumb to understand b/c you can't think for yourself.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 24, 2014)

pinqy said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > but, what 20 million unemployed people to dems?  possible future voters since they hopefully be pushed onto welfare.
> ...



U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

19.4 million unemployed

go fuck yourself

but even if you weren't a fucking moron, 16.6 million jobless is not a reason for bragging.


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## MeBelle (Apr 25, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...





peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...





Statistikhengst said:


> Grandma said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...





Grandma said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...





Grandma said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...




Instead of calling people liars, read the fkn bill!

Title VII is what [MENTION=23262]peach174[/MENTION] is talking about. 

And all of you owe her an apology. 


Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act/Title VII - Wikisource, the free online library


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## Grandma (Apr 25, 2014)

MeBelle60 said:


> Instead of calling people liars, read the fkn bill!
> 
> Title VII is what [MENTION=23262]peach174[/MENTION] is talking about.
> 
> ...



Sorry, MeBelle, but we don't owe the liar anything.

The link you posted refers to biosimilar drugs - drugs that are similar in composition and effect, like penicillin and amoxocillin. A "similar" drug has a "similar" effect. The patient should not have reacted.

Her doctor should have been aware of the patient's history.

And as I've pointed out several times, GENERIC DRUGS HAVE BEEN PROMOTED BY INSURANCE COMPANIES ALL ALONG.

But why a sudden change from one scrip to another? My mom's on medicare, so I know she has the option TO CHOOSE FOR HERSELF which drug she wants. She preferred the more expensive name brand drug, but every year when the Part B donut hole opened up, she went with the generics. (Did you notice that I said every year? Because this has been going on longer than the ACA existed. It goes back to Dubya's "reform.") Fortunately Mommy doesn't have to worry about that this year, the ACA medicare expansion passed in Ohio.


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## peach174 (Apr 25, 2014)

Boy,
A few of you have added into things that was never said or even implied.
Now it is my fault that I did not mention when this happened to my Mom, and I have corrected that and said it happened in January of this year.

The New Health Care act does encourage Medicare patients to use generic drugs to try and save costs.
I have not lied about anything.

Don't take my word for it take this Doctors word.

USPharmacist.com > Trends in Generic Drug Reimbursement in Medicaid and Medicare


Generic drugs remain the best bargain in health care, and given the recent enactment of health care reform legislation (The Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act, P.L. 111-148),1 the use of generic medications is likely to increase significantly.

This means that federally sponsored health care plans will pay for even more prescription drugs than they do now, and federal reimbursement policies will have more influence on how generic drugs are used and how they are dispensed. Right now, federal government programs pay for, on average, about half of all prescriptions dispensed by independent community pharmacies.2 That includes Medicare Part D, Medicaid, the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), TRICARE (military health plan), the 340B Drug Pricing Program, and Veterans Affairs (VA) prescriptions. *For that reason, it is important for federal payment policies to create incentives for pharmacists to work with physicians and health plans to use generic drugs where appropriate for the patient*.

*The new health care reform law also makes some important changes to generic drug coverage under Medicare Part D.*

Because of the Health Care Law my Mom's Doctor tried to get her on generic medication. Her Doctor did not know nor did my Mom know that she would be allergic to the generic.
But the New Health Care bill does encourage and pushes to use generic drugs just like I said all along.


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## peach174 (Apr 25, 2014)

Grandma said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



You are assuming much. Nothing was ever said about whether my mom could or could not afford her meds.
Buy the way, she can afford her meds.

How can you know if you are allergic to something if you have never used it before?

No her insurance was not pushing for generic. Her Doctor made that decision based on the new health care bill and tried to get her on generic drugs in January of 2014 in order to bring health care costs down.


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## Antares (Apr 25, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I love to watch the mental gymnastics you people use to defend the Boi King.


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## Antares (Apr 25, 2014)

Grandma said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Sorry, no.

Insurance companies ARE forcing patients to go through a progression to use certain drugs.

I take Nexium, I had to use a nexum generic FIRST, if the Dr. documented that it did not work...and he did, then they approved my Nexium.

Also the "donut hole" has NOT been eliminated yet.

It will not be closed until 2020.


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## Antares (Apr 25, 2014)

Just my opinion but I believe we will be in a Single Payor system by then. (2020)


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## peach174 (Apr 25, 2014)

Antares said:


> Grandma said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...



Yes
It has to be proven first as to why you can't take the generic drugs or why they don't work, then you are approved for the brand name.


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## MeBelle (Apr 25, 2014)

Grandma said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of calling people liars, read the fkn bill!
> ...



*^^^no such thing exists^^^*​

Further:

biosimilar
adjective 
Referring to a biosimilar therapeutics agent.

noun A biopharmaceutical which is produced by a different manufacturer after the expiration of the patent and marketing exclusivity of an original innovative biological product (e.g., a therapeutic monoclonal antibody).

In contrast to small (non-biological) agents, for which manufacturing an equivalent product is a relatively straightforward chemical process, *biosimilars are not produced from the original clones and cell lines used to produce the tested and proven-effective agent; they thus may have therapeutic and metabolic profiles that differ from the clinically tested and proven products.*

biosimilar - definition of biosimilar in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


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## Moonglow (Apr 25, 2014)

Ifin' them thar republicans don't so sometin' on immagrition, they will loose support of minorities...


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## HenryBHough (Apr 25, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> Ifin' them thar republicans don't so sometin' on immagrition, they will loose support of minorities...



Was it a generic, brand name, or simply street drug that guided you to that imaginative thought?


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## Synthaholic (Apr 26, 2014)

Antares said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...


I accept your defeat.  Although it was inevitable.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 26, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> Ifin' them thar republicans don't so sometin' on immagrition, they will loose support of minorities...


_"Wetback is NOT a racist term, it's a term of endearment.  Why, my family has been calling them wetbacks for generations!"_ ~ the next Republican train wreck


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## candycorn (Apr 26, 2014)

Nyvin said:


> Back in March the figures were looking like a GOP take over.   The recent polls have shown that GOP advantage has largely gone down significantly and with a couple polls in Arkansas and Iowa actually favoring the Democrats,  the Democrats for the first time in 2014 actually have a slim favor in retaining the senate.
> 
> Who Will Win The Senate? ? The Upshot Senate Forecasts ?*NYTimes.com
> 
> Improving opinion on Obamacare?   Better opinions of Obama?   Are Democrats finally getting a chance to spend money on the same level as the Kochs?    Who knows...but the trend is certainly positive for the Democrats.



The only shot the Democrats have of keeping the Senate is if the TEA party torpedoes favorite GOP legacy office holders and splits the vote.  

Beyond that, get ready for GOP control of the Senate for 2 years. The books should re-balance in 2016 when there are more GOP seats in play and you have an enthusiastic DNC base going to the polls.


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## candycorn (Apr 26, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Isn't it always?


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## Interpol (Apr 26, 2014)

Right now, I'd still have to say it's the Republicans to lose. No way they should lose taking the senate, but as moderate voters get to know some of the wacky positions of the Teapublicans, it'll have the effect of re-electing certain Democrats in states where they'd usually lose. 

America seems to be over the Tea Party. Even Boehner was mocking them on Friday. 

I think the bellweather is McConnell in Kentucky. Seems there's a hunger to throw out some of the old farts and I've never seen him this seriously in trouble before. 

If there is a malaise out there for old white guys who seem to be stalling government, it doesn't bode well for Republicans in the fall. 

Seems that their fixation on Obamacare and Benghazi and the IRS just haven't materialized or gained any traction outside the right-wing echo chamber, particularly with the news that the IRS was actually looking more at ACORN ripoff groups and other lefty groups, while Tea Party groups were only 3rd on their list.


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## Statistikhengst (Apr 26, 2014)

Interpol said:


> Right now, I'd still have to say it's the Republicans to lose. No way they should lose taking the senate, but as moderate voters get to know some of the wacky positions of the Teapublicans, it'll have the effect of re-electing certain Democrats in states where they'd usually lose.
> 
> America seems to be over the Tea Party. Even Boehner was mocking them on Friday.
> 
> ...




I concur with you on some of this and like how you worded it, alot.

Yes, the McConnell race is likely to be a marquee race this year, not sure how much it means outside of KY. However, with Alison Lundgren in KY and Michelle Nunn in GA, we are looking at two women who have real chances of winning those respective races for the Democratic Party.

Mitch McConnell rode in on the Reagan 1984 re-election landslide wave, barely beating Walt Huddleston (by *+0,4%*, *49.9%* to Huddleston's 49.5%), who served two terms and was elected in KY AGAINST the Nixon 1972 wave. This will be McConnell's sixth senatorial election campaign and he reached his high-water mark in the 2002 mid-terms, having beaten Lois Weinberg in a massive blowout, by *+29.4%*.  If it really looks like Lundgren may be winning, then I bet bottom dollar that Bill Clinton (who is still beloved in much of the Commonwealth) will be campaigning for her, to help her get over the top, if possible.

Also, in presidential politics, until 2008, Kentucky really was a kind of narrow bellwether. From 1964-1996, it went with the national winner in the EV and until 2008 with the winner in the EC. Since 2000, it has been increasingly more Conservative and gave Mitt Romney the largest landslide for a Republican since Nixon in 1972. But Bill Clinton did win in this state twice.  If Hillary becomes the DEM nominee (and I am sure she will), then the DEMS will want to capture KY in 2016, and having a Democratic senator from this state would be a leg up for them.

So, yes, I think that a lot of money will go into Kentucky and Georgia this time around.

*That being said* - and I have written this more than once - also once on this thread -* it is definitely ADVANTAGE GOP in this cycle*, alone based on the overwhelming trend in electoral history of mid-terms and congressional elections overall.

Once again, I point to these links:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/elect...pared-to-presidential-terms-1855-present.html

(from January 14th, 2014, more than 3 months ago)


-and-

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WmxQNjAtOFFvM3p4S3NvTWRGNGc&usp=sharing#gid=0


Go read the op very thoroughly.  It proves that regardless of the issues of the day, the opposition party does _extraordinarily_ well in mid-terms, especially in 2nd-presidential term mid-terms. See: Eisenhower 1958, LBJ 1966, Nixon/Ford 1974, Reagan 1986, Bush 43 2006. The notable exception for a 2nd presidential term mid-term is Clinton 1998 and the notable exception for a 1st presidential term mid-term is Bush 43 2002.

Generic polling shows pretty much a patt-situation between the GOP and DEMS in congressional races, but that is not good enough. With the kind of "Gerrymandering" that has been going on, the DEMS need at least a consistent *+7* advantage (which they will not have) in order to get the HOR back. I suspect that the GOP will increase it's margin in the HOR by *+11* or so. This means that I am sure they will pick up at least 5 seats total, maybe more. The DEMS will pick-up some seats, very likely in California, maybe in Nevada, also in New Mexico, but they will lose seats elsewhere.

In the Senate, the cards are stacked for the GOP to begin with. They only need six pick ups to win, and even if Lundgren (D) wins in KY and/or Nunn (D) wins in Georgia, the GOP has real possibilities in at least 7 or 8 states outside of KY and GA. The state of Michigan could suddenly become VERY important in this cycle. I would be surprised if the GOP doesn't win the Senate, but with such a narrow margin, it will be just as deadlocked in 2015 as it is now.

Remember:  a Democrat (me) just once again wrote that this year will be a GOP year. This is totally predictable and absolutely in-line with electoral history.

On a side note, the 2014 Ohio gubernatorial race will also be a marquee race, with wide reaching implications for 2016. Ohio is trending more and more blue, but also losing more and more on electoral firepower. I suspect that after 2020, both Ohio and Georgia will have 17 EV apiece. Right now, it's Ohio 18 / Georgia 16, but in 1964, 50 years ago, Ohio had 26 EV and Georgia had only 12. Times have changed, and Georgia is becoming a real power-player on the presidential electoral map.

So, I will be watching the 2014 elections with great interest, but unless there is a massive paradigm shift and knowing that Democratic voters tend to be far lazier in mid-terms than Republican voters, it really is *advantage: GOP* in this year.


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## Vermonter (Apr 26, 2014)

Americans are still against Ostupidcare. Some polls have it 2 to 1 against. A vast majority of the signups are those whose insurance was cancelled under Ostupidcare rules. Now they are paying more for less coverage and a $12,000 deductible. Per person.

The Dems can retain control only if they lie and run as fast as they can from the same Ostupidcare they voted for. And that is what they'll do. 

Also, now that Dear Leader has delayed Keystone again, more Democrat Senate seats have come into play. Those states want jobs, not rhetoric.

Jobs is still the number one issue. With 90,000,000 adults out of work there's a need to get them employed. The unemployment rate only reflects the amount of people in the workforce, and it's at the lowest point since the 70s. They stop counting those who's unemployment has run out. Actual unemployment is over 11%.


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## Antares (Apr 26, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



You couldn't win a "debate" on your best day kid, "Nuh-Uh" never wins anything.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 27, 2014)

Vermonter said:


> Americans are still against Ostupidcare. Some polls have it 2 to 1 against.




^^^^ Bubble Boy posts from within the bubble.


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## Synthaholic (Apr 27, 2014)

Antares said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...


Violate OSHA regulations and - guess what? - you get fined by the government.  Violate ACA regulations, you get fined by the government.

It's just another regulation.  And a damn good one that Americans want.

You already lost, bum.  

Isn't it just like a conservative to demand 5 balls and 4 strikes at bat.


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