# Putin, It's Enough!



## PitStewart

Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.

The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west.

Salutin Putin inside a Russian troll house World news The Guardian

A Russian freelance journalist who claims she went undercover as a pro-government Internet troll says she is suing her former employer in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin's online army.
"This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."

 Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck!


----------



## tinydancer

Oh for crying out loud. Another "just joined" to tell us about a so called Putin Propaganda Machine. 

Meanwhile spreading their own bullshit all over the net.


----------



## tinydancer

Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?


----------



## PitStewart

I just want to draw your attention to this young and brave woman. Do you have a lot of balls to repeat her action?! She is my hero!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

PitStewart said:


> Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.
> 
> The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west.
> 
> Salutin Putin inside a Russian troll house World news The Guardian
> 
> A Russian freelance journalist who claims she went undercover as a pro-government Internet troll says she is suing her former employer in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin's online army.
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck!



Obama has a similar operation run out of Jake Starkey's basement


----------



## Camp

tinydancer said:


> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?


Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
Click to expand...

Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.  

But hey!  Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> 
> But hey!  Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
Click to expand...

That war has been brewing for 15 years. Obama didn't commit a coup in Kyiv. That is just your Obama hate clouding you lack of knowledge about the situation.
 Ukrainian President Yanukovych stole billions from people of Ukraine and was selling them out with a deal with Russia. When peaceful protest became violent with killing scores of protesters Yanukovych vacated his offices and fled the country so he could not be arrested. With a vacated office and no President, the Ukraine Parliament had legal authority to appoint a temporary President until an election could be held. That is what the Russian propagandist call a coup . An election was held and it was monitored by international monitors and declared legitimate and valid. That is the government in control of Kyiv. Not your alleged coup government. 
If you want to criticize US and EU you must go back to  when promises were broken and East Euro former USSR nations were allowed to join NATO and the NATO war in former Yugoslavia over Kosovo in 1999 without UN permission or approval. That was the catapult that launched the situation of today


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> 
> But hey!  Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That war has been brewing for 15 years. Obama didn't commit a coup in Kyiv. That is just your Obama hate clouding you lack of knowledge about the situation.
> Ukrainian President Yanukovych stole billions from people of Ukraine and was selling them out with a deal with Russia. When peaceful protest became violent with killing scores of protesters Yanukovych vacated his offices and fled the country so he could not be arrested. With a vacated office and no President, the Ukraine Parliament had legal authority to appoint a temporary President until an election could be held. That is what the Russian propagandist call a coup . An election was held and it was monitored by international monitors and declared legitimate and valid. That is the government in control of Kyiv. Not your alleged coup government.
> If you want to criticize US and EU you must go back to  when promises were broken and East Euro former USSR nations were allowed to join NATO and the NATO war in former Yugoslavia over Kosovo in 1999 without UN permission or approval. That was the catapult that launched the situation of today
Click to expand...

I know debating a statist/neocon is a terrible waste of time, because so much of what you know is wrong.  You can consistently be counted on to believe whatever the American government tells you.  You must learn to think for yourself.

BO did commit a coup and claiming he did not, just proves your inability of accepting truth.

Here is a good column for you to read.  It might enlighten you, but I doubt it.
_Such is the power of our golden rule.

The theme of new Russian aggression sounded over the past couple of months reeked of orchestration from the first, as suggested in this space when it was first sounded. It was too consistent in language, tone and implication, whether it came from the Pentagon, NATO or Times news reports—which are, naturally, based on Pentagon and NATO sources.

Anything counted: Russia’s military exercises within its own borders were aggressive. Russian air defense systems on its borders were aggressive. Russia’s military presence in Kaliningrad, Russian territory lying between Lithuania and Poland, was an aggressive threat.

The caker came 10 days ago, when Putin promised his generals 40 new intercontinental ballistic missiles. Aggressive times 10, we heard over and over. “Loose rhetoric” was the incessantly repeated phrase.

In this connection I loved Ashton Carter in an exclusive interview on CBS Tuesday morning. Announcing NATO’s new plans for deployments in Eastern Europe and the Baltics, the defense secretary cited Putin’s “loose rhetoric.” The correspondent must have lost the playbook and had the temerity to ask him to explain. Whereupon the wrong-footed Carter mumbled, “Well, it’s… it’s… it’s loose rhetoric, that’s what it is.”_
We restarted the Cold War The real story about the NATO buildup that the New York Times won t tell you - Salon.com


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> 
> But hey!  Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That war has been brewing for 15 years. Obama didn't commit a coup in Kyiv. That is just your Obama hate clouding you lack of knowledge about the situation.
> Ukrainian President Yanukovych stole billions from people of Ukraine and was selling them out with a deal with Russia. When peaceful protest became violent with killing scores of protesters Yanukovych vacated his offices and fled the country so he could not be arrested. With a vacated office and no President, the Ukraine Parliament had legal authority to appoint a temporary President until an election could be held. That is what the Russian propagandist call a coup . An election was held and it was monitored by international monitors and declared legitimate and valid. That is the government in control of Kyiv. Not your alleged coup government.
> If you want to criticize US and EU you must go back to  when promises were broken and East Euro former USSR nations were allowed to join NATO and the NATO war in former Yugoslavia over Kosovo in 1999 without UN permission or approval. That was the catapult that launched the situation of today
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know debating a statist/neocon is a terrible waste of time, because so much of what you know is wrong.  You can consistently be counted on to believe whatever the American government tells you.  You must learn to think for yourself.
> 
> BO did commit a coup and claiming he did not, just proves your inability of accepting truth.
> 
> Here is a good column for you to read.  It might enlighten you, but I doubt it.
> _Such is the power of our golden rule.
> 
> The theme of new Russian aggression sounded over the past couple of months reeked of orchestration from the first, as suggested in this space when it was first sounded. It was too consistent in language, tone and implication, whether it came from the Pentagon, NATO or Times news reports—which are, naturally, based on Pentagon and NATO sources.
> 
> Anything counted: Russia’s military exercises within its own borders were aggressive. Russian air defense systems on its borders were aggressive. Russia’s military presence in Kaliningrad, Russian territory lying between Lithuania and Poland, was an aggressive threat.
> 
> The caker came 10 days ago, when Putin promised his generals 40 new intercontinental ballistic missiles. Aggressive times 10, we heard over and over. “Loose rhetoric” was the incessantly repeated phrase.
> 
> In this connection I loved Ashton Carter in an exclusive interview on CBS Tuesday morning. Announcing NATO’s new plans for deployments in Eastern Europe and the Baltics, the defense secretary cited Putin’s “loose rhetoric.” The correspondent must have lost the playbook and had the temerity to ask him to explain. Whereupon the wrong-footed Carter mumbled, “Well, it’s… it’s… it’s loose rhetoric, that’s what it is.”_
> We restarted the Cold War The real story about the NATO buildup that the New York Times won t tell you - Salon.com
Click to expand...

You are confirming what I posted with your link. Clinton and Bush supporting and allowing NATO expansion had nothing to do with Obama. Russia replacing 40 older missiles with 40 new versions that it claims can defeat missile defense is saber rattling that adds to the weapons escalation. Does anyone believe Russia will go nuclear and cause world wide annihilation by launching one or more of these missiles? The escalation began in as soon as Putin came to power and was directly related to the bombings and military actions in Serbia and Kosovo. Today is just a result of that progression of steady and increased escalation.


----------



## Katzndogz

An attack on the United States has to come while obastard is still presidunce to be assured that there would be no retaliation.  No retaliation no world wide annihilation.


----------



## Misty

And do you know what this do gooder is going to accomplish? Putting thousands out of work. Yay way to go. 

Do gooders always end up fucking the little guy. The road to hell is paved with do gooders.


----------



## Camp

Tipsycatlover said:


> An attack on the United States has to come while obastard is still presidunce to be assured that there would be no retaliation.  No retaliation no world wide annihilation.



You are so obsessed with Obama you make yourself stupid. Both Great Britain and France have deliverable nuclear responses platforms. It would not be just up to Obama.


----------



## Katzndogz

Camp said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> 
> An attack on the United States has to come while obastard is still presidunce to be assured that there would be no retaliation.  No retaliation no world wide annihilation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are so obsessed with Obama you make yourself stupid. Both Great Britain and France have deliverable nuclear responses platforms. It would not be just up to Obama.
Click to expand...

When and if Putin attacks France or Britian they can strike back on their own.


----------



## Camp

Tipsycatlover said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> 
> An attack on the United States has to come while obastard is still presidunce to be assured that there would be no retaliation.  No retaliation no world wide annihilation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are so obsessed with Obama you make yourself stupid. Both Great Britain and France have deliverable nuclear responses platforms. It would not be just up to Obama.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When and if Putin attacks France or Britian they can strike back on their own.
Click to expand...

An attack on any NATO member instigates article 5, which considers an attack on one an attack on all. You are proposing some kind of limited nuclear war is possible. You are believing the Putin propaganda that he can use some limited number of nuclear missiles and not be retaliated against. It works on some Russians but it is surprising that western educated people believe that fantasy.


----------



## JimH52

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> 
> But hey!  Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
Click to expand...


No Proof?  Even though the Pro-Russian thugs brag about shooting down a Ukrainian plane moments after the incident.  Grow a Frigin Brain on the way to pick up your check from Poootin....


----------



## Camp

JimH52 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> 
> But hey!  Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No Proof?  Even though the Pro-Russian thugs brag about shooting down a Ukrainian plane moments after the incident.  Grow a Frigin Brain on the way to pick up your check from Poootin....
Click to expand...

There is plenty of proof, the Putin supporters just refuse to recognize it. There are a series of photo's compiled to show the BUK that shot down the aircraft traveling from Russia to it's launch site and back to Russia. There was an admission by a separatist leader that the missile was in the area and under separatist control. The separatist under Russian control refused to let international investigators to enter the crash site. The bodies were left in the hot sun to be devoured by animals, decompose and looted by local separatist while Russian technicians had time to scour the site to find and remove evidence (remnants of actual missile debris that would identify it's origin).


----------



## hipeter924

Not this story again, I posted it on the forum on June 6th: Russia s secret troll factory US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Now there are dozens of copy-cat threads.

This propaganda story is kinda like the continuous stream of gay threads.


----------



## Camp

hipeter924 said:


> Not this story again, I posted it on the forum on June 6th: Russia s secret troll factory US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> Now there are dozens of copy-cat threads.
> 
> This propaganda story is kinda like the continuous stream of gay threads.


Dozens?


----------



## hipeter924

Camp said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not this story again, I posted it on the forum on June 6th: Russia s secret troll factory US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> Now there are dozens of copy-cat threads.
> 
> This propaganda story is kinda like the continuous stream of gay threads.
> 
> 
> 
> Dozens?
Click to expand...

Getting there. Already another in the global section.


----------



## tinydancer

Camp said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
Click to expand...


Hey Camp! Guess who the Nazi lovers in Kiev hired to organize the neo Nazi militias?

Yarosh. The assholes hired Yarosh. I back up every claim I make. 

Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias - Business Insider


AFP More: AFP
Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias

Is this unreal or what? Head of Pravy Sektor gets hired by Poroshenko's nazis.

From the Telegraph, not a Putin propaganda machine.

There is the Azov Battalion. Note not flying the Ukrainian flag. 






The Azov battalion uses the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf''s Hook) symbol on its banner (Tom Parfitt)

“Personally, I’m a Nazi,” said “Phantom”, a 23-year-old former lawyer at the ceremony wearing camouflage and holding a Kalashnikov. “I don’t hate any other nationalities but I believe each nation should have its own country.” He added: “We have one idea: to liberate our land from terrorists.” 

Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph


----------



## Camp

hipeter924 said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not this story again, I posted it on the forum on June 6th: Russia s secret troll factory US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> Now there are dozens of copy-cat threads.
> 
> This propaganda story is kinda like the continuous stream of gay threads.
> 
> 
> 
> Dozens?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Getting there. Already another in the global section.
Click to expand...

So two or three is just like dozens, meaning at least 24. Each thread is a little different. This one is about an individual credited with writing a story that helped expose the propaganda mill. Not the same as the other two stories. We start multiple threads on similar or same topics for several understandable reasons. Mostly when the thread gets hijacked or simple interfered with enough to ruin honest discussion and debate. It is up to mod's to link threads into one if they become repetitious.


----------



## hipeter924

Camp said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not this story again, I posted it on the forum on June 6th: Russia s secret troll factory US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> Now there are dozens of copy-cat threads.
> 
> This propaganda story is kinda like the continuous stream of gay threads.
> 
> 
> 
> Dozens?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Getting there. Already another in the global section.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So two or three is just like dozens, meaning at least 24. Each thread is a little different. This one is about an individual credited with writing a story that helped expose the propaganda mill. Not the same as the other two stories. We start multiple threads on similar or same topics for several understandable reasons. Mostly when the thread gets hijacked or simple interfered with enough to ruin honest discussion and debate. It is up to mod's to link threads into one if they become repetitious.
Click to expand...

I suggest you actually read a dictionary: Dozen Definition of dozen by Merriam-Webster


> *Full Definition of DOZEN*
> 1
> *:*  a group of 12
> 2
> *:  an indefinitely large number <dozens of times>*


 I was using it to imply lots, not a literal dozen.


----------



## Camp

tinydancer said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Camp! Guess who the Nazi lovers in Kiev hired to organize the neo Nazi militias?
> 
> Yarosh. The assholes hired Yarosh. I back up every claim I make.
> 
> Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias - Business Insider
> 
> 
> AFP More: AFP
> Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias
> 
> Is this unreal or what? Head of Pravy Sektor gets hired by Poroshenko's nazis.
> 
> From the Telegraph, not a Putin propaganda machine.
> 
> There is the Azov Battalion. Note not flying the Ukrainian flag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Azov battalion uses the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf''s Hook) symbol on its banner (Tom Parfitt)
> 
> “Personally, I’m a Nazi,” said “Phantom”, a 23-year-old former lawyer at the ceremony wearing camouflage and holding a Kalashnikov. “I don’t hate any other nationalities but I believe each nation should have its own country.” He added: “We have one idea: to liberate our land from terrorists.”
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
Click to expand...

The people who are in these groups are nationalist. They are not the kind of Nazi's you wish to make them appear to be. Those groups fought against Russian occupations before WWII and allied themselves with the enemy of their enemy during WWII. They are point of fact carrying on the historical heritage of fighting the occupiers. Ironic, at this time Americans who use a confederate flag insist it is only a symbol and only represents selected aspects of confederate history. When Ukrainians use this flag and symbol and represent selected aspects of it's heritage it is a different story for you. Weren't you using a confederate flag avatar  just a few days ago? Does it mean you are a nazi? Also, what have you to say about Russian neo nazi's in Ukraine. I can remember when you were in denial about Chechens volunteering with separatist. Maybe you still do. Maybe you will deny Wolves M/C and other nationalist neo nazi's are with invaders in Ukraine.


----------



## Camp

hipeter924 said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not this story again, I posted it on the forum on June 6th: Russia s secret troll factory US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> Now there are dozens of copy-cat threads.
> 
> This propaganda story is kinda like the continuous stream of gay threads.
> 
> 
> 
> Dozens?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Getting there. Already another in the global section.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So two or three is just like dozens, meaning at least 24. Each thread is a little different. This one is about an individual credited with writing a story that helped expose the propaganda mill. Not the same as the other two stories. We start multiple threads on similar or same topics for several understandable reasons. Mostly when the thread gets hijacked or simple interfered with enough to ruin honest discussion and debate. It is up to mod's to link threads into one if they become repetitious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suggest you actually read a dictionary: Dozen Definition of dozen by Merriam-Webster
> 
> 
> 
> *Full Definition of DOZEN*
> 1
> *:*  a group of 12
> 2
> *:  an indefinitely large number <dozens of times>*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was using it to imply lots, not a literal dozen.
Click to expand...

Than you should have said a couple or a few, not dozens. Dozens make it a lie, not a mere misunderstanding or exaggeration.


----------



## hipeter924

Camp said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not this story again, I posted it on the forum on June 6th: Russia s secret troll factory US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> Now there are dozens of copy-cat threads.
> 
> This propaganda story is kinda like the continuous stream of gay threads.
> 
> 
> 
> Dozens?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Getting there. Already another in the global section.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So two or three is just like dozens, meaning at least 24. Each thread is a little different. This one is about an individual credited with writing a story that helped expose the propaganda mill. Not the same as the other two stories. We start multiple threads on similar or same topics for several understandable reasons. Mostly when the thread gets hijacked or simple interfered with enough to ruin honest discussion and debate. It is up to mod's to link threads into one if they become repetitious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suggest you actually read a dictionary: Dozen Definition of dozen by Merriam-Webster
> 
> 
> 
> *Full Definition of DOZEN*
> 1
> *:*  a group of 12
> 2
> *:  an indefinitely large number <dozens of times>*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was using it to imply lots, not a literal dozen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Than you should have said a couple or a few, not dozens. Dozens make it a lie, not a mere misunderstanding or exaggeration.
Click to expand...

*yawn*

Splitting hairs makes your post a rant. Grow up.


----------



## JimH52

Putin and his supporters think that if they keep denying the truth, everyone will go away.  Murderers often do that.


----------



## hipeter924

JimH52 said:


> Putin and his supporters think that if they keep denying the truth, everyone will go away.  Murderers often do that.


Yep. Doesn't work, but they do it anyway.


----------



## Moonglow

tinydancer said:


> Oh for crying out loud. Another "just joined" to tell us about a so called Putin Propaganda Machine.
> 
> Meanwhile spreading their own bullshit all over the net.


You seem to praise Pootin every chance you get,,comrade....


----------



## Moonglow

JimH52 said:


> Putin and his supporters think that if they keep denying the truth, everyone will go away.  Murderers often do that.


Only when guilty to you need to dissuade you opponents as enemies....


----------



## Moonglow

Camp said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
Click to expand...

Well they do get paid to do it...


----------



## Moonglow

tinydancer said:


> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?


Tell the Ruskies to stay on their side of the border...


----------



## hipeter924

Moonglow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell the Ruskies to stay on their side of the border...
Click to expand...

Putin wants to gain back some more of the former-USSR, so doubt he will stop till he has another airport and more ports.


----------



## Moonglow

hipeter924 said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell the Ruskies to stay on their side of the border...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Putin wants to gain back some more of the former-USSR, so doubt he will stop till he has another airport and more ports.
Click to expand...

But he's so dreamy, everyone should kneel and exalt this gawd of  a man.....



		Code:
	

this is where tiny dancer orgasm yet again at the mere mention of the gawd man's name


----------



## gipper

NATO pushing troops east surrounding Russia.  Nato carrying out war games along Russian border.  

USA imposing economic sanctions against Russia (most consider sanctions an act of war).  

USA muscling Euro nations into line.  It gets worse....
In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”

 “I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful,*as well as advice and potentially advisers.*

“I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)

And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.

In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.



USA selling arms like a prostitute sells pussy....





All this after the "most blatant coup in history" and yet idiots continue to claim no Washington instigated coup occurred and believe Putin is responsible for all things bad.
_In a December 19th interview in the Russian magazine Kommersant, George Friedman, who is the Founder and CEO of Stratfor, the ‘Shadow CIA’ firm, says of the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych that occurred on February 22nd of 2014: *“It really was the most blatant coup in history.”* Perhaps he is saying this because of the videos that were uploaded to the Web which showed it to be so,but this statement by him contradicts the description that is asserted by the U.S. White House and the European Union, and the Western press, which description is that Yanukovych’s overthrow was instead just the result of the U.S. Government’s $5+ billion expense since 1991 to establish ‘democracy’ in Ukraine.
Head of Stratfor Private CIA Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was The Most Blatant Coup in History Washington s Blog_


But it is all Putin's fault say the foolish American statist.


----------



## Moonglow

gipper said:


> NATO pushing troops east surrounding Russia.  Nato carrying out war games along Russian border.
> 
> USA imposing economic sanctions against Russia (most consider sanctions an act of war).
> 
> USA muscling Euro nations into line.  It gets worse....
> In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”
> 
> “I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful,*as well as advice and potentially advisers.*
> 
> “I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)
> 
> And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.
> 
> In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.
> 
> 
> 
> USA selling arms like a prostitute sells pussy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this after the "most blatant coup in history" and yet idiots continue to claim no Washington instigated coup occurred and believe Putin is responsible for all things bad.
> _In a December 19th interview in the Russian magazine Kommersant, George Friedman, who is the Founder and CEO of Stratfor, the ‘Shadow CIA’ firm, says of the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych that occurred on February 22nd of 2014: *“It really was the most blatant coup in history.”* Perhaps he is saying this because of the videos that were uploaded to the Web which showed it to be so,but this statement by him contradicts the description that is asserted by the U.S. White House and the European Union, and the Western press, which description is that Yanukovych’s overthrow was instead just the result of the U.S. Government’s $5+ billion expense since 1991 to establish ‘democracy’ in Ukraine.
> Head of Stratfor Private CIA Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was The Most Blatant Coup in History Washington s Blog_
> 
> 
> But it is all Putin's fault say the foolish American statist.


Says the paid Ruskie troll...you guys are so easy to  pick off...


----------



## gipper

Moonglow said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> NATO pushing troops east surrounding Russia.  Nato carrying out war games along Russian border.
> 
> USA imposing economic sanctions against Russia (most consider sanctions an act of war).
> 
> USA muscling Euro nations into line.  It gets worse....
> In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”
> 
> “I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful,*as well as advice and potentially advisers.*
> 
> “I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)
> 
> And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.
> 
> In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.
> 
> 
> 
> USA selling arms like a prostitute sells pussy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this after the "most blatant coup in history" and yet idiots continue to claim no Washington instigated coup occurred and believe Putin is responsible for all things bad.
> _In a December 19th interview in the Russian magazine Kommersant, George Friedman, who is the Founder and CEO of Stratfor, the ‘Shadow CIA’ firm, says of the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych that occurred on February 22nd of 2014: *“It really was the most blatant coup in history.”* Perhaps he is saying this because of the videos that were uploaded to the Web which showed it to be so,but this statement by him contradicts the description that is asserted by the U.S. White House and the European Union, and the Western press, which description is that Yanukovych’s overthrow was instead just the result of the U.S. Government’s $5+ billion expense since 1991 to establish ‘democracy’ in Ukraine.
> Head of Stratfor Private CIA Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was The Most Blatant Coup in History Washington s Blog_
> 
> 
> But it is all Putin's fault say the foolish American statist.
> 
> 
> 
> Says the paid Ruskie troll...you guys are so easy to  pick off...
Click to expand...

Typical post from a fool who thinks debate is calling another poster a name.  

Putin is a ruthless dictator, but you fail to understand reason and intelligence...thus resort to typical dumb-ass knee jerk reaction.

Please refrain from responding to my posts.


----------



## tinydancer

Moonglow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell the Ruskies to stay on their side of the border...
Click to expand...



Putin's done jack shit compared to the asshole in the White House and other western leaders. 

Egypt. Pressures Mubarak to step down. Hands Egypt to the Muslim Brotherhood and puts Morsi his puppet in charge. Thank heavens the Egyptians came to their senses and outlawed the bastards.

Syria. In his zeal to remove Assad from power and assisting in the supplying of weapons to the terrorists errrrrrrrrrrrr rebels via the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood, Obama and other western leaders created a vacuum and gave the world ISIS.

Libya. Pressures Gaddafi. Supplies air cover for the terrorists errrrrr rebels. Look how well that worked out eh?

Check out the terrorists errrrrrrrrrr rebels having a pool party and the US Embassy in Tripoli. Terrorists errrrrrrrrrrrr rebels now control approximately one fifth of the oil on the planet. 






Now a civil war in the Ukraine because the west wanted more regime change and assisted and backed the coup that overthrew a duly elected President and government.

Swell. Special. Good grief, everything these assholes called our leaders have done lately has gone to rat shit.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> NATO pushing troops east surrounding Russia.  Nato carrying out war games along Russian border.
> 
> USA imposing economic sanctions against Russia (most consider sanctions an act of war).
> 
> USA muscling Euro nations into line.  It gets worse....
> In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”
> 
> “I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful,*as well as advice and potentially advisers.*
> 
> “I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)
> 
> And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.
> 
> In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.
> 
> 
> 
> USA selling arms like a prostitute sells pussy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this after the "most blatant coup in history" and yet idiots continue to claim no Washington instigated coup occurred and believe Putin is responsible for all things bad.
> _In a December 19th interview in the Russian magazine Kommersant, George Friedman, who is the Founder and CEO of Stratfor, the ‘Shadow CIA’ firm, says of the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych that occurred on February 22nd of 2014: *“It really was the most blatant coup in history.”* Perhaps he is saying this because of the videos that were uploaded to the Web which showed it to be so,but this statement by him contradicts the description that is asserted by the U.S. White House and the European Union, and the Western press, which description is that Yanukovych’s overthrow was instead just the result of the U.S. Government’s $5+ billion expense since 1991 to establish ‘democracy’ in Ukraine.
> Head of Stratfor Private CIA Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was The Most Blatant Coup in History Washington s Blog_
> 
> 
> But it is all Putin's fault say the foolish American statist.


Why are you discussing aid to Ukraine and showing an obsolete chart of weapons sales to Russia. Obsolete since the sanctions. And the US has not yet given lethal weapons or military aid to Ukraine. All aid given has been not lethal. Lots of medical supplies, MRE's, etc.


----------



## JimH52

gipper said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> NATO pushing troops east surrounding Russia.  Nato carrying out war games along Russian border.
> 
> USA imposing economic sanctions against Russia (most consider sanctions an act of war).
> 
> USA muscling Euro nations into line.  It gets worse....
> In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”
> 
> “I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful,*as well as advice and potentially advisers.*
> 
> “I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)
> 
> And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.
> 
> In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.
> 
> 
> 
> USA selling arms like a prostitute sells pussy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this after the "most blatant coup in history" and yet idiots continue to claim no Washington instigated coup occurred and believe Putin is responsible for all things bad.
> _In a December 19th interview in the Russian magazine Kommersant, George Friedman, who is the Founder and CEO of Stratfor, the ‘Shadow CIA’ firm, says of the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych that occurred on February 22nd of 2014: *“It really was the most blatant coup in history.”* Perhaps he is saying this because of the videos that were uploaded to the Web which showed it to be so,but this statement by him contradicts the description that is asserted by the U.S. White House and the European Union, and the Western press, which description is that Yanukovych’s overthrow was instead just the result of the U.S. Government’s $5+ billion expense since 1991 to establish ‘democracy’ in Ukraine.
> Head of Stratfor Private CIA Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was The Most Blatant Coup in History Washington s Blog_
> 
> 
> But it is all Putin's fault say the foolish American statist.
> 
> 
> 
> Says the paid Ruskie troll...you guys are so easy to  pick off...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Typical post from a fool who thinks debate is calling another poster a name.
> 
> Putin is a ruthless dictator, but you fail to understand reason and intelligence...thus resort to typical dumb-ass knee jerk reaction.
> 
> Please refrain from responding to my posts.
Click to expand...


All the while, Putin is stripping insignias from his troops uniforms and sending them into Ukraine, against international law.  Putin in a KGB Thug and an accomplice to murder, in addition to being a murderer himself by knocking off, one by one, opposition leaders in his wannabe USSR country.


----------



## tinydancer

All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.

I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.

"Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.

“The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister. 

“A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”

Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."

Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph


----------



## JimH52

tinydancer said:


> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph



How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!


----------



## tinydancer

JimH52 said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
Click to expand...


Oh bite me!



To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.

If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.


----------



## JimH52

tinydancer said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh bite me!
> 
> 
> 
> To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.
> 
> If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.
Click to expand...


Almost the 1st of the month.  Your check should be arriving any day, Comrade.....


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="tinydancer, post: 11716511, member: 25451"] QUOTE
	
="JimH52, post: 11716290, member: 6882"] QUOTE
	
="tinydancer, post: 11716223, member: 25451"]All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.

I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.

"Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.

“The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.

“A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”

Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."

Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph[ QUOTE
	
]

How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best![ QUOTE
	
]

Oh bite me!



To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.

If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.[/QUOTE]






And that's why Western leaders hate him. As well as all those 6 newly arrived trolls, posting the same thing several times a day. They must be paid per post or what?


----------



## JimH52

And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"

No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard

A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...

How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast


----------



## gipper

tinydancer said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh bite me!
> 
> 
> 
> To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.
> 
> If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.
Click to expand...

The American oligarchy loves fools who readily believe whatever they are told by the State.  The State accuses Putin of all sorts of nefarious actions with little proof, but the fools believe.  All the while ignoring the actions of NATO, CIA, the White House, etc. who are actively surrounding Russia and trying to impose their will on it.


----------



## Camp

tinydancer said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh bite me!
> 
> 
> 
> To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.
> 
> If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.
Click to expand...

Putler is a name used in Europe and particularly in Ukraine. It is the people who were affected most by both Hitler and are affected most by Putin who see and realize a connection and similarity between the two.  Hitler invaded countries with the excuse that German populations in neighboring countries were "in danger", the same exact excuse used by Putin.


----------



## JimH52

Camp said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh bite me!
> 
> 
> 
> To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.
> 
> If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Putler is a name used in Europe and particularly in Ukraine. It is the people who were affected most by both Hitler and are affected most by Putin who see and realize a connection and similarity between the two.  Hitler invaded countries with the excuse that German populations in neighboring countries were "in danger", the same exact excuse used by Putin.
Click to expand...


And he will continue to use that excuse as I attempts to reassemble the old USSR.  Once a KGB Agent, always a KGB Agent.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh bite me!
> 
> 
> 
> To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.
> 
> If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The American oligarchy loves fools who readily believe whatever they are told by the State.  The State accuses Putin of all sorts of nefarious actions with little proof, but the fools believe.  All the while ignoring the actions of NATO, CIA, the White House, etc. who are actively surrounding Russia and trying to impose their will on it.
Click to expand...

Everyone in the world knows Putin has been attempting to rebuild the old Soviet empire for 15 years. He has been building up his military forces year by year and posting troops on the borders of the east European countries that Russia has traditionally invaded, occupied and subjugated. Putin worshipers like you have enabled him to play his bullying roll on small neighboring countries. Even after threatening nuclear war you idiots continue to support him. You have no idea how much the Russian propagandist love anti American American's who cheer for Putin the way you do.


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh bite me!
> 
> 
> 
> To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.
> 
> If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The American oligarchy loves fools who readily believe whatever they are told by the State.  The State accuses Putin of all sorts of nefarious actions with little proof, but the fools believe.  All the while ignoring the actions of NATO, CIA, the White House, etc. who are actively surrounding Russia and trying to impose their will on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Everyone in the world knows Putin has been attempting to rebuild the old Soviet empire for 15 years. *
Click to expand...


No...everyone does not know this.  Only American statist/neocon fools know this.

If Putin has been attempting to rebuild the Soviet empire for 15 years, he sure has done a poor job.


----------



## Camp

tinydancer said:


> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph


Ukraine recognizes that it has a difficulty with the far right nationalist with historical ties to Nazi's. Countries throughout Europe  and in Russia have neo Nazi's. There are Russian neo Nazi's fighting alongside the separatist and killing Ukrainians.  Nazism in Europe is about nationalism. It represents purity of the race in a particular country. It gets little support from the host countries, but enough to give them a voice. In Ukraine they are a force that was organized and equipped to challenge and confront the separatist and are generally given much credit for holding back advances by the separatist and Russian facilitators. If America is invaded you will find few who object to far right wing militias carrying confederate flags or any other kinds of flags confronting the enemy and giving their lives to defeat the enemy.


----------



## FA_Q2

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> But hey! Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
Click to expand...

Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.


----------



## FA_Q2

tinydancer said:


> Oh for crying out loud. Another "just joined" to tell us about a so called Putin Propaganda Machine.
> Meanwhile spreading their own bullshit all over the net.


What is your point?
Russia has a propaganda machine – that is rather obvious and Putin has controlled the media within Russia as much as he possible can for a while now.  Are you really trying to justify that or claim it is not true?
Brining the US in on that is meaningless.  It neither negates nor lessens the fact that Putin is trying to control the people in Russia through propaganda.


tinydancer said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Camp! Guess who the Nazi lovers in Kiev hired to organize the neo Nazi militias?
> 
> Yarosh. The assholes hired Yarosh. I back up every claim I make.
> 
> Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias - Business Insider
> 
> 
> AFP More: AFP
> Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias
> 
> Is this unreal or what? Head of Pravy Sektor gets hired by Poroshenko's nazis.
> 
> From the Telegraph, not a Putin propaganda machine.
> 
> There is the Azov Battalion. Note not flying the Ukrainian flag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Azov battalion uses the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf''s Hook) symbol on its banner (Tom Parfitt)
> 
> “Personally, I’m a Nazi,” said “Phantom”, a 23-year-old former lawyer at the ceremony wearing camouflage and holding a Kalashnikov. “I don’t hate any other nationalities but I believe each nation should have its own country.” He added: “We have one idea: to liberate our land from terrorists.”
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
Click to expand...

 
Again, and?
The fact is that there are Russian troops in Ukraine territory.  Period.
Do you really support Russia on invading sovereign nations?


----------



## FA_Q2

gipper said:


> NATO pushing troops east surrounding Russia.  Nato carrying out war games along Russian border.
> 
> USA imposing economic sanctions against Russia (most consider sanctions an act of war).
> 
> USA muscling Euro nations into line.  It gets worse....
> In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”
> 
> “I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful,*as well as advice and potentially advisers.*
> 
> “I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)
> 
> And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.
> 
> In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.
> 
> 
> 
> USA selling arms like a prostitute sells pussy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this after the "most blatant coup in history" and yet idiots continue to claim no Washington instigated coup occurred and believe Putin is responsible for all things bad.
> _In a December 19th interview in the Russian magazine Kommersant, George Friedman, who is the Founder and CEO of Stratfor, the ‘Shadow CIA’ firm, says of the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych that occurred on February 22nd of 2014: *“It really was the most blatant coup in history.”* Perhaps he is saying this because of the videos that were uploaded to the Web which showed it to be so,but this statement by him contradicts the description that is asserted by the U.S. White House and the European Union, and the Western press, which description is that Yanukovych’s overthrow was instead just the result of the U.S. Government’s $5+ billion expense since 1991 to establish ‘democracy’ in Ukraine.
> Head of Stratfor Private CIA Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was The Most Blatant Coup in History Washington s Blog_
> 
> 
> But it is all Putin's fault say the foolish American statist.


 
Yes, the US policy was blatantly wrong.  You certainly have a way with justifying horse manure with other horse manure though.
The failure of the US to get their noses out of Ukraine’s business is not a justification for Russia’s INVASION.  Period.


----------



## gipper

FA_Q2 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> NATO pushing troops east surrounding Russia.  Nato carrying out war games along Russian border.
> 
> USA imposing economic sanctions against Russia (most consider sanctions an act of war).
> 
> USA muscling Euro nations into line.  It gets worse....
> In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”
> 
> “I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful,*as well as advice and potentially advisers.*
> 
> “I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)
> 
> And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.
> 
> In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.
> 
> 
> 
> USA selling arms like a prostitute sells pussy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this after the "most blatant coup in history" and yet idiots continue to claim no Washington instigated coup occurred and believe Putin is responsible for all things bad.
> _In a December 19th interview in the Russian magazine Kommersant, George Friedman, who is the Founder and CEO of Stratfor, the ‘Shadow CIA’ firm, says of the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych that occurred on February 22nd of 2014: *“It really was the most blatant coup in history.”* Perhaps he is saying this because of the videos that were uploaded to the Web which showed it to be so,but this statement by him contradicts the description that is asserted by the U.S. White House and the European Union, and the Western press, which description is that Yanukovych’s overthrow was instead just the result of the U.S. Government’s $5+ billion expense since 1991 to establish ‘democracy’ in Ukraine.
> Head of Stratfor Private CIA Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was The Most Blatant Coup in History Washington s Blog_
> 
> 
> But it is all Putin's fault say the foolish American statist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the US policy was blatantly wrong.  You certainly have a way with justifying horse manure with other horse manure though.
> The failure of the US to get their noses out of Ukraine’s business is not a justification for Russia’s INVASION.  Period.
Click to expand...

Russia's invasion???  Really???

Why are you posting propaganda?


----------



## gipper

FA_Q2 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> But hey! Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
> That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
> If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.
Click to expand...

There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the while Kiev has not a problem using neo nazis. This love affair of western Ukraine and the Nazis is deplorable.
> 
> I never thought I would witness the day that my Prime Minister would back neo nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis.
> 
> “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister.
> 
> “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
> 
> Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Ukrainian security affairs at New York University, fears battalions like Azov are becoming “magnets to attract violent fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond”. “The danger is that this is part of the building up of a toxic legacy for when the war ends,” he said."
> 
> Ukraine crisis the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ironic that a disciple of the Modern Day Hitler speaks of neo-Nazis in the opposition.  Irony at its best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh bite me!
> 
> 
> 
> To call Putin a Modern Day Hitler is laughable.
> 
> If we wish to compare death tolls by American Presidents vs President Putin, the CIC's take Putin hands down. That's just a fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The American oligarchy loves fools who readily believe whatever they are told by the State.  The State accuses Putin of all sorts of nefarious actions with little proof, but the fools believe.  All the while ignoring the actions of NATO, CIA, the White House, etc. who are actively surrounding Russia and trying to impose their will on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Everyone in the world knows Putin has been attempting to rebuild the old Soviet empire for 15 years. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...everyone does not know this.  Only American statist/neocon fools know this.
> 
> If Putin has been attempting to rebuild the Soviet empire for 15 years, he sure has done a poor job.
Click to expand...

Really. Perhaps you are unaware of accelerated weapons development and production such as the SU-35/37, Sukoi PAK FA  T-50, T-90 and 95 MBT's, etc.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> But hey! Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
> That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
> If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.
Click to expand...

There is plenty of proof. Whenever it is shown it simple gets denied or ignored by the Russians and dopes like you echo the propaganda.
You can show no proof that it was the Ukraine that shot down that plane that has not been shown to be false and made up nonsense. However, there is real proof of the separatist shooting it down that you can not dispute with facts.


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> But hey! Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
> That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
> If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is plenty of proof. Whenever it is shown it simple gets denied or ignored by the Russians and dopes like you echo the propaganda.
> You can show no proof that it was the Ukraine that shot down that plane that has not been shown to be false and made up nonsense. However, there is real proof of the separatist shooting it down that you can not dispute with facts.
Click to expand...

And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> 
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> But hey! Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
> That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
> If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is plenty of proof. Whenever it is shown it simple gets denied or ignored by the Russians and dopes like you echo the propaganda.
> You can show no proof that it was the Ukraine that shot down that plane that has not been shown to be false and made up nonsense. However, there is real proof of the separatist shooting it down that you can not dispute with facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
Click to expand...


That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also. 
Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?


----------



## tinydancer

JimH52 said:


> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast






JimH52 said:


> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast




You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.

They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.


----------



## PK1

tinydancer said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.
Click to expand...


---
Trolling your one-sided propaganda again?
Did you read Camp's objective comments?
"_Countries throughout Europe and in Russia have neo Nazi's. There are Russian neo Nazi's fighting alongside the separatist and killing Ukrainians. Nazism in Europe is about nationalism_."


----------



## Camp

tinydancer said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.
Click to expand...

The Telegraph article confirms that Putin's propaganda, hence yours, is distorted. The bulk of the fighters in the so called neo Nazi groups have nothing to do with traditional Nazi values other than nationalism. Those militia's happen to be the best equipped and organized and so they attract the most patriotic recruits who are anxious to fight the invaders of Ukraine and the rebels. But even if they were all hard core fanatical Nazi's, it does not give Putin and the Russians the right to interfere with the the internal business of Ukraine. The Nazi accusations are just deflections away from that hard cold fact. Russian military does not belong in Ukraine. It is illegal for them to be their.


----------



## PK1

How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast[/QUOTE]


You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.

They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.[/QUOTE]

---
Trolling your one-sided propaganda again?
Did you read Camp's objective comments?
"_Countries throughout Europe and in Russia have neo Nazi's. There are Russian neo Nazi's fighting alongside the separatist and killing Ukrainians. Nazism in Europe is about nationalism_."[/QUOTE]

---
Then there's *fascism*.
"an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization."

That describes Putin's government, as voiced by Kasparov & other Russian dissidents.


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> But hey! Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
> That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
> If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is plenty of proof. Whenever it is shown it simple gets denied or ignored by the Russians and dopes like you echo the propaganda.
> You can show no proof that it was the Ukraine that shot down that plane that has not been shown to be false and made up nonsense. However, there is real proof of the separatist shooting it down that you can not dispute with facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also.
> Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?
Click to expand...

You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="PitStewart, post: 11710312, member: 54996"]

"This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."

Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck![ QUOTE
	
]

PitStewart, you've joined USMB on Sunday, right? At least 6 more "new arrivals" have registered on USMB since Thursday (like PK1, Lisitsyn and Mike Bredsbey) and since then they are shooting basically the same thread about "Russian Troll Factory" several times a day. They sound like *themselves are *products of the same troll factory (unless it's the same clown, registered 6 times) and looks like they are either paid per post or just are insane.

By the way, in the Russian language "Savchuk" and "suchka" (a bitch) sound pretty darn close, don't they? What a funny coincidence....


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
> That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
> If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is plenty of proof. Whenever it is shown it simple gets denied or ignored by the Russians and dopes like you echo the propaganda.
> You can show no proof that it was the Ukraine that shot down that plane that has not been shown to be false and made up nonsense. However, there is real proof of the separatist shooting it down that you can not dispute with facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also.
> Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
Click to expand...

Where do you get the idea that the US does not know who shot down the passenger jet? They have repeatedly blamed Russian separatist under Russian control who used a Russian weapon.


----------



## tinydancer

So now the Telegraph is just falling for Putin's propaganda?

Even though these players have been around in the Ukraine and are well documented neo Nazis?

What next assholes? Stepan Bandera the mass murderer of Poles is your hero too?

Because Bandera is a hero of Poroshenko's. 



You idiots are amazing. For crying out loud western Ukraine had Waffen SS divisions.

Nazi lovers you really should be ashamed of yourselves. You make me want to bazooka barf.

*"What is Scary*

In an OpEd in the LA Times, entitled “Ukraine’s Threat from Within,” Director of the School of International Relations at USC Robert English very concisely warns that “the way Ukrainian Ultra Nationalists whitewash Bandera history, which is their past, makes the present and future all that much more scary.”

The Banderas, or Banderites, are activists in the Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist movement that is now in control of the government in Ukraine. Under the militant leadership of Stepan Bandera in World War II, the ultra-nationalists organized the Ukrainian Waffen SS Galician, Nichtengall, and Roland Divisions that collaborated with the Nazis and were responsible for the genocide of over 500,000 people. 

Following the war, however, Ukrainian Nazis were the only group to escape trial at Nuremburg for crimes against humanity. Moreover, neither the Banderas, the Ukrainian Waffen SS, nor any other Ukrainian collaborators have ever apologized for their participation in genocide.

In the landmark work on the subject , Genocide Committed by Ukrainian Nationalists on the Polish Population During World War II, Ryszard Szawlowski characterizes it this way:

“…the Germans have long admitted to their crimes, and have apologized for them publicly …. [The] president of the Federal Republic of Germany, Roman Herzog, [said] in his speech in Warsaw on August 1, 1994 … ‘I bow before the fighters of the Warsaw Uprising, and before all the Polish war victims.

I beg forgiveness for what the Germans did.’ Russian president Boris Yeltsin, when he kissed monsignor Zdzislaw Peszkowski on the hand, whispered the words ‘I apologize’ ….

“Ukrainian genocide committed against the Poles during World War II surpassed German and Soviet genocide …. [It] was marked by the utmost ruthlessness and barbarity, and … up until the present day, it has been denied or, at best, presented with reminders that all is “relative’ or other such evasions.”

Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization


----------



## Camp

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="PitStewart, post: 11710312, member: 54996"]
> 
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck![ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> PitStewart, you've joined USMB on Sunday, right? At least 6 more "new arrivals" have registered on USMB since Thursday (like PK1, Lisitsyn and Mike Bredsbey) and since then they are shooting basically the same thread about "Russian Troll Factory" several times a day. They sound like *themselves are *products of the same troll factory (unless it's the same clown, registered 6 times) and looks like they are either paid per post or just are insane.
> 
> By the way, in the Russian language "Savchuk" and "suchka" (a bitch) sound pretty darn close, don't they? What a funny coincidence....


When you can not attack the message, attack the messenger. Propaganda 101.


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> There is plenty of proof. Whenever it is shown it simple gets denied or ignored by the Russians and dopes like you echo the propaganda.
> You can show no proof that it was the Ukraine that shot down that plane that has not been shown to be false and made up nonsense. However, there is real proof of the separatist shooting it down that you can not dispute with facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also.
> Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where do you get the idea that the US does not know who shot down the passenger jet? They have repeatedly blamed Russian separatist under Russian control who used a Russian weapon.
Click to expand...

You bet the US gov knows and that may be why they have failed to prove the Russian backed rebels did it.  

Does it not concern you that the US gov has been very quiet about this tragedy and has yet to provide any concrete proof of their acquisitions?  Apparently it does not.

When you accuse a nation of an act of war, you better back it up.  Why has the US gov NOT backed it up?


----------



## tinydancer

Camp said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Telegraph article confirms that Putin's propaganda, hence yours, is distorted. The bulk of the fighters in the so called neo Nazi groups have nothing to do with traditional Nazi values other than nationalism. Those militia's happen to be the best equipped and organized and so they attract the most patriotic recruits who are anxious to fight the invaders of Ukraine and the rebels. But even if they were all hard core fanatical Nazi's, it does not give Putin and the Russians the right to interfere with the the internal business of Ukraine. The Nazi accusations are just deflections away from that hard cold fact. Russian military does not belong in Ukraine. It is illegal for them to be their.
Click to expand...


Hey Camp if you want to embrace neo Nazis be my guest. I find it appalling.


----------



## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="PitStewart, post: 11710312, member: 54996"]
> 
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck![ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> PitStewart, you've joined USMB on Sunday, right? At least 6 more "new arrivals" have registered on USMB since Thursday (like PK1, Lisitsyn and Mike Bredsbey) and since then they are shooting basically the same thread about "Russian Troll Factory" several times a day. They sound like *themselves are *products of the same troll factory (unless it's the same clown, registered 6 times) and looks like they are either paid per post or just are insane.
> 
> By the way, in the Russian language "Savchuk" and "suchka" (a bitch) sound pretty darn close, don't they? What a funny coincidence....



---
"Stratford" and "Жopa" are similar in many ways. Is that a coincidence too?


----------



## JimH52

tinydancer said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Telegraph article confirms that Putin's propaganda, hence yours, is distorted. The bulk of the fighters in the so called neo Nazi groups have nothing to do with traditional Nazi values other than nationalism. Those militia's happen to be the best equipped and organized and so they attract the most patriotic recruits who are anxious to fight the invaders of Ukraine and the rebels. But even if they were all hard core fanatical Nazi's, it does not give Putin and the Russians the right to interfere with the the internal business of Ukraine. The Nazi accusations are just deflections away from that hard cold fact. Russian military does not belong in Ukraine. It is illegal for them to be their.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Camp if you want to embrace neo Nazis be my guest. I find it appalling.
Click to expand...


As has been well documented, there are Neo-Nazis in both Russia and in Ukraine.  Putin is using the same excuse that Hitler used to invade other countries.  Sooner or later, NATO will need to step in and slap him down.  Bullies don't usually stop until they are forced to stop.  The Russian people love it because they see him restoring the old USSR.  That is his goal.  One by one, he will intimidate and try to bully the former "satellite countries" to become part of his plan.  He is preparing for another Cold War as we speak.


----------



## PK1

tinydancer said:


> So now the Telegraph is just falling for Putin's propaganda?
> 
> Even though these players have been around in the Ukraine and are well documented neo Nazis?
> 
> What next assholes? Stepan Bandera the mass murderer of Poles is your hero too?
> 
> Because Bandera is a hero of Poroshenko's.
> 
> 
> 
> You idiots are amazing. For crying out loud western Ukraine had Waffen SS divisions.
> 
> Nazi lovers you really should be ashamed of yourselves. You make me want to bazooka barf.
> 
> *"What is Scary*
> 
> In an OpEd in the LA Times, entitled “Ukraine’s Threat from Within,” Director of the School of International Relations at USC Robert English very concisely warns that “the way Ukrainian Ultra Nationalists whitewash Bandera history, which is their past, makes the present and future all that much more scary.”
> 
> The Banderas, or Banderites, are activists in the Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist movement that is now in control of the government in Ukraine. Under the militant leadership of Stepan Bandera in World War II, the ultra-nationalists organized the Ukrainian Waffen SS Galician, Nichtengall, and Roland Divisions that collaborated with the Nazis and were responsible for the genocide of over 500,000 people.
> 
> Following the war, however, Ukrainian Nazis were the only group to escape trial at Nuremburg for crimes against humanity. Moreover, neither the Banderas, the Ukrainian Waffen SS, nor any other Ukrainian collaborators have ever apologized for their participation in genocide.
> 
> In the landmark work on the subject , Genocide Committed by Ukrainian Nationalists on the Polish Population During World War II, Ryszard Szawlowski characterizes it this way:
> 
> “…the Germans have long admitted to their crimes, and have apologized for them publicly …. [The] president of the Federal Republic of Germany, Roman Herzog, [said] in his speech in Warsaw on August 1, 1994 … ‘I bow before the fighters of the Warsaw Uprising, and before all the Polish war victims.
> 
> I beg forgiveness for what the Germans did.’ Russian president Boris Yeltsin, when he kissed monsignor Zdzislaw Peszkowski on the hand, whispered the words ‘I apologize’ ….
> 
> “Ukrainian genocide committed against the Poles during World War II surpassed German and Soviet genocide …. [It] was marked by the utmost ruthlessness and barbarity, and … up until the present day, it has been denied or, at best, presented with reminders that all is “relative’ or other such evasions.”
> 
> Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization



---
Ukraine genocide?
You conveniently forgot the Holodomor in the '30's when Stalin had millions of Ukrainians starve to death.


----------



## Camp

tinydancer said:


> So now the Telegraph is just falling for Putin's propaganda?
> 
> Even though these players have been around in the Ukraine and are well documented neo Nazis?
> 
> What next assholes? Stepan Bandera the mass murderer of Poles is your hero too?
> 
> Because Bandera is a hero of Poroshenko's.
> 
> 
> 
> You idiots are amazing. For crying out loud western Ukraine had Waffen SS divisions.
> 
> Nazi lovers you really should be ashamed of yourselves. You make me want to bazooka barf.
> 
> *"What is Scary*
> 
> In an OpEd in the LA Times, entitled “Ukraine’s Threat from Within,” Director of the School of International Relations at USC Robert English very concisely warns that “the way Ukrainian Ultra Nationalists whitewash Bandera history, which is their past, makes the present and future all that much more scary.”
> 
> The Banderas, or Banderites, are activists in the Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist movement that is now in control of the government in Ukraine. Under the militant leadership of Stepan Bandera in World War II, the ultra-nationalists organized the Ukrainian Waffen SS Galician, Nichtengall, and Roland Divisions that collaborated with the Nazis and were responsible for the genocide of over 500,000 people.
> 
> Following the war, however, Ukrainian Nazis were the only group to escape trial at Nuremburg for crimes against humanity. Moreover, neither the Banderas, the Ukrainian Waffen SS, nor any other Ukrainian collaborators have ever apologized for their participation in genocide.
> 
> In the landmark work on the subject , Genocide Committed by Ukrainian Nationalists on the Polish Population During World War II, Ryszard Szawlowski characterizes it this way:
> 
> “…the Germans have long admitted to their crimes, and have apologized for them publicly …. [The] president of the Federal Republic of Germany, Roman Herzog, [said] in his speech in Warsaw on August 1, 1994 … ‘I bow before the fighters of the Warsaw Uprising, and before all the Polish war victims.
> 
> I beg forgiveness for what the Germans did.’ Russian president Boris Yeltsin, when he kissed monsignor Zdzislaw Peszkowski on the hand, whispered the words ‘I apologize’ ….
> 
> “Ukrainian genocide committed against the Poles during World War II surpassed German and Soviet genocide …. [It] was marked by the utmost ruthlessness and barbarity, and … up until the present day, it has been denied or, at best, presented with reminders that all is “relative’ or other such evasions.”
> 
> Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization


Why stop at only going back 70 or 75 years? Why not go back just a few more, maybe just another 5 or 6. If you did you would understand why the Ukrainians sided with the only ones who would help them. Bandera, his followers and the alliance with the Nazi's was the direct result of the Holodomor that killed as many as 12 million Ukrainians. Nobody knows the exact number. Holodomor is the Ukrainian term for starving to death. Stalin starved millions upon millions of Ukrainians in what is known as the terror famine. Nobody helped the Ukrainians as Stalin subjected them to genocide on an unbearable level of suffering. That is why Bandera and the alliance with Germany was formed.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is plenty of proof. Whenever it is shown it simple gets denied or ignored by the Russians and dopes like you echo the propaganda.
> You can show no proof that it was the Ukraine that shot down that plane that has not been shown to be false and made up nonsense. However, there is real proof of the separatist shooting it down that you can not dispute with facts.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also.
> Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where do you get the idea that the US does not know who shot down the passenger jet? They have repeatedly blamed Russian separatist under Russian control who used a Russian weapon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You bet the US gov knows and that may be why they have failed to prove the Russian backed rebels did it.
> 
> Does it not concern you that the US gov has been very quiet about this tragedy and has yet to provide any concrete proof of their acquisitions?  Apparently it does not.
> 
> When you accuse a nation of an act of war, you better back it up.  Why has the US gov NOT backed it up?
Click to expand...

They have backed it up. You just refuse to acknowledge the evidence. You have no answers to the evidence I have already suggested as viable evidence. You do as I claimed, you simply ignore it. You can not answer why a leader of the separatist admitted knowledge of a BUK missile system under separatist control or the posting on social networks claiming the shoot down of an aircraft. You can not explain the cell phone intercepts. You just ignore the evidence or make lame excuses.


----------



## JimH52

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also.
> Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where do you get the idea that the US does not know who shot down the passenger jet? They have repeatedly blamed Russian separatist under Russian control who used a Russian weapon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You bet the US gov knows and that may be why they have failed to prove the Russian backed rebels did it.
> 
> Does it not concern you that the US gov has been very quiet about this tragedy and has yet to provide any concrete proof of their acquisitions?  Apparently it does not.
> 
> When you accuse a nation of an act of war, you better back it up.  Why has the US gov NOT backed it up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have backed it up. You just refuse to acknowledge the evidence. You have no answers to the evidence I have already suggested as viable evidence. You do as I claimed, you simply ignore it. You can not answer why a leader of the separatist admitted knowledge of a BUK missile system under separatist control or the posting on social networks claiming the shoot down of an aircraft. You can not explain the cell phone intercepts. You just ignore the evidence or make lame excuses.
Click to expand...


Or revert to name calling and ridicule....When there is no defense, that is the only means one of these lunatics can use to debate.


----------



## Toro

Oh, like, no WAY dood!

Putin scored eight goals playing against NHL players.

No way the ex-communist KGB Putin would do that!


----------



## Toro

PitStewart said:


> Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.
> 
> The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west.
> 
> Salutin Putin inside a Russian troll house World news The Guardian
> 
> A Russian freelance journalist who claims she went undercover as a pro-government Internet troll says she is suing her former employer in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin's online army.
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck!



You mean like this guy below, right?



gipper said:


> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> 
> But hey!  Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.


----------



## Toro

Moonglow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for crying out loud. Another "just joined" to tell us about a so called Putin Propaganda Machine.
> 
> Meanwhile spreading their own bullshit all over the net.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to praise Pootin every chance you get,,comrade....
Click to expand...


It's an old Soviet trick.  Whenever nationalists in other countries want to end Russian domination of their countries, the Soviets, er, I mean "Russians" accused them of being "Nazis."  That's what they did when the Baltic nations rose up against Communist oppression in the early 1990s.  

The irony is that the term "useful idiots" used to be a term hurled - accurately - at the apologists for the USSR of the Left in the West.  Today, it's the apologists for the criminal Russian Klepto-state on the Right in the West who swallow Russian propaganda whole for whom it is most accurately applied.


----------



## tinydancer

Camp said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Telegraph article confirms that Putin's propaganda, hence yours, is distorted. The bulk of the fighters in the so called neo Nazi groups have nothing to do with traditional Nazi values other than nationalism. Those militia's happen to be the best equipped and organized and so they attract the most patriotic recruits who are anxious to fight the invaders of Ukraine and the rebels. But even if they were all hard core fanatical Nazi's, it does not give Putin and the Russians the right to interfere with the the internal business of Ukraine. The Nazi accusations are just deflections away from that hard cold fact. Russian military does not belong in Ukraine. It is illegal for them to be their.
Click to expand...


Traditional Nazi values other than ultra nationalism? What the fuck?

That's what the Nazis were all about Camp. For crying out loud your argument to me is like Whoopi Goldberg's save Roman Polanski line.

"Well it wasn't really rape rape" when he drugged the baby and buggered her. 

NOW your are telling me that the neo Nazis being funded and put out there by the bastards in Kiev aren't really "Nazi Nazis".

How fucked up is that? That's fucked up Camp.


----------



## g5000

Reading this topic, it looks like Putin's trolling is working!


----------



## tinydancer

Toro said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for crying out loud. Another "just joined" to tell us about a so called Putin Propaganda Machine.
> 
> Meanwhile spreading their own bullshit all over the net.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to praise Pootin every chance you get,,comrade....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's an old Soviet trick.  Whenever nationalists in other countries want to end Russian domination of their countries, the Soviets, er, I mean "Russians" accused them of being "Nazis."  That's what they did when the Baltic nations rose up against Communist oppression in the early 1990s.
> 
> The irony is that the term "useful idiots" used to be a term hurled - accurately - at the apologists for the USSR of the Left in the West.  Today, it's the apologists for the criminal Russian Klepto-state on the Right in the West who swallow Russian propaganda whole for whom it is most accurately applied.
Click to expand...


Hey Toro. What part of adoring Stepan Bandera did you miss out of Kiev?

What part of Kiev is funding neo Nazis to fight the eastern Ukrainians did you miss.

Get real. Western Uks where my family is from love and adore their Nazi roots.

Look up Bandera. War criminal. Nazi. Adored by Poroshenko. Had Waffen SS for crying out loud.

How Nazi can you get? And you are trying to maintain this is Russian propaganda?

Why don't you look up how many hundreds of thousands Bandera's crew slaughtered?

Don't tell me this is bullshit propaganda. I know my Uk history very well and I am ashamed that they still love the Nazis.

"The Banderas, or Banderites, are activists in the Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist movement that is now in control of the government in Ukraine. 

Under the militant leadership of Stepan Bandera in World War II, the ultra-nationalists organized the Ukrainian Waffen SS Galician, Nichtengall, and Roland Divisions that collaborated with the Nazis and were responsible for the genocide of over 500,000 people."

Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization


----------



## tinydancer

Ok you sons of bitches that are backing the neo nazis in Kiev, Stepan Bandera is their hero in Kiev.

Do you motherfuckers know what Bandera did to the Poles?

That he is buried in Munich? That in Western Ukraine they had three Waffen SS divisions? That they committed genocide?

Do you know what the Banderites did? And if you do and you still back them you are sick mother fucking puppies.


----------



## tinydancer

*Just nationalists Camp?*

*What were the Volhynian Massacres?*
The Volhynian massacres were anti-Polish genocidal ethnic cleansings conducted by Ukrainian nationalists. 

The massacres took place within Poland’s borders as of the outbreak of WWII, and not only in Volhynia, but also in other areas with a mixed Polish-Ukrainian population, especially the Lvov, Tarnopol, and Stanisławów voivodeships (that is, in Eastern Galicia), as well as in some voivodeships bordering on Volhynia (the western part of the Lublin Voivodeship and the northern part of the Polesie Voivodeship – see map). 

The time frame of these massacres was 1943−1945. The perpetrators were the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists−Bandera faction (OUN-B) and its military wing, called the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). 

Their documents show that the planned extermination of the Polish population was called an “anti-Polish operation.”

*Chronology*

1941/1942 — Ukrainians in Volhynia begin to form military detachments, partly for protection against the pacifications conducted by German units with the use of Ukrainian police. Birth of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (_Ukrayins’ka Povstans’ka Armiya_, UPA) led by the prewar Petlura-supporter Taras Bulba-Borovets.


Spring/summer 1943 — Taras Bulba-Borovets is attacked for his refusal to submit to the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists-Bandera faction (_Orhanizatsiya Ukrayins'kykh Natsionalistiv_, OUN-B) and to participate in the ongoing anti-Polish ethnic cleansings.


Late 1942 — the conference of miltary officials of Bandera’s OUN in Lvov results in a decision to form partisan detachments that are to initiate a nationwide uprising at the most opportune moment.


 Moreover, all Poles and Jews are to be expelled from Ukrainian territory under threat of death. Those who refuse to leave voluntarily are to be killed.
Volhynia Massacre History


----------



## tinydancer

So who the fuck wants to tell me that the nazis in Kiev who overthrew a true government elected by the people of the Ukraine are people we should be supporting?


----------



## tinydancer

You people who love Kiev and the nazi supporters in Kiev don't you care about what they did to the Poles?

I fight my own on this love of this Nazi Bandera. But to witness good people defending these actions of these bastards in Kiev is like a stake through my heart. 

They slaughtered so many. Yet here we are on a message board with posters defending the nazi lovers in Kiev. 

Unfreaking real.


----------



## PK1

tinydancer said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for crying out loud. Another "just joined" to tell us about a so called Putin Propaganda Machine.
> 
> Meanwhile spreading their own bullshit all over the net.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to praise Pootin every chance you get,,comrade....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's an old Soviet trick.  Whenever nationalists in other countries want to end Russian domination of their countries, the Soviets, er, I mean "Russians" accused them of being "Nazis."  That's what they did when the Baltic nations rose up against Communist oppression in the early 1990s.
> 
> The irony is that the term "useful idiots" used to be a term hurled - accurately - at the apologists for the USSR of the Left in the West.  Today, it's the apologists for the criminal Russian Klepto-state on the Right in the West who swallow Russian propaganda whole for whom it is most accurately applied.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Toro. What part of adoring Stepan Bandera did you miss out of Kiev?
> 
> What part of Kiev is funding neo Nazis to fight the eastern Ukrainians did you miss.
> 
> Get real. Western Uks where my family is from love and adore their Nazi roots.
> 
> Look up Bandera. War criminal. Nazi. Adored by Poroshenko. Had Waffen SS for crying out loud.
> 
> How Nazi can you get? And you are trying to maintain this is Russian propaganda?
> 
> Why don't you look up how many hundreds of thousands Bandera's crew slaughtered?
> 
> Don't tell me this is bullshit propaganda. I know my Uk history very well and I am ashamed that they still love the Nazis.
> 
> "The Banderas, or Banderites, are activists in the Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist movement that is now in control of the government in Ukraine.
> 
> Under the militant leadership of Stepan Bandera in World War II, the ultra-nationalists organized the Ukrainian Waffen SS Galician, Nichtengall, and Roland Divisions that collaborated with the Nazis and were responsible for the genocide of over 500,000 people."
> 
> Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization
Click to expand...


---
Looks like you're earning your nice Troller pay with all those misleading one-sided PROPAGANDA posts.
Got a hard-on for Bandera? Yeah, he was macho! But not a "Nazi" in the German sense. 
*Why did Hitler imprison Bandera for several years in a concentration camp in 1940's if he was a Nazi?*
Answer: he was a UKRAINIAN nationalist!
That's why the KGB executed/poisoned him in Munchen.

Also quit with the BS like this:
"_What part of Kiev is funding neo Nazis to fight the eastern Ukrainians did you miss_."
Kiev and other Ukrainians are fighting the RUSSIANS in the Donbas, you fucking TROLL.


----------



## Camp

tinydancer said:


> You people who love Kiev and the nazi supporters in Kiev don't you care about what they did to the Poles?
> 
> I fight my own on this love of this Nazi Bandera. But to witness good people defending these actions of these bastards in Kiev is like a stake through my heart.
> 
> They slaughtered so many. Yet here we are on a message board with posters defending the nazi lovers in Kiev.
> 
> Unfreaking real.


The people of today in Ukraine and Kiev are not the people of World War II. You speak of them as if they were one and the same. If you are going to attack selected factions of Ukrainians than you must be willing to attack others who collaborated with the Nazi's. Some were actually national allies with the axis such as Romania and Hungary. Others provided troops such as Norway, Finland and the list goes on and on.
The Nazi's are not in control of Kiev. It has been pointed out to you numerous times that the groups you point out with neo Nazi background were overwhelmingly rejected in the elections. They do not have the control and power in Ukraine that you and the Russians assert. That is why you always have to revert to that, "but, but, look at what they did in WWII" defense. You stereotyping all the volunteers in the Ukrainian militia's is no different than people in America stereotyping all people in America who fly confederate flags as racist. And the bottom line is, why does any of this give approval and permission to Putin to send troops into Ukraine? How does any of your allegations justify Russia and Putin interfering with the internal business of Ukraine?

An almost 40 minute long documentary, but it takes you inside the militia and onto the battlefield.

youtube.com/watch?v=adhA_JSvO1M


----------



## ESay

tinydancer said:


> You people who love Kiev and the nazi supporters in Kiev don't you care about what they did to the Poles?
> 
> I fight my own on this love of this Nazi Bandera. But to witness good people defending these actions of these bastards in Kiev is like a stake through my heart.
> 
> They slaughtered so many. Yet here we are on a message board with posters defending the nazi lovers in Kiev.
> 
> Unfreaking real.



You are crying so loud about neo-Nazis in Ukraine, Bandera, and so on.
But, unfortunately, you are not crying about those bastards who are not any better than these ‘banderovtsi’. I am talking about bolshevics. How many crimes did they commit during their rules in 1920-30-s? Have you heard something about mass repressions, deportations, starvation, and so on? And despite of this, Stalin is almost a national hero in Russia, with almost half Russian population thinking his politic was right (If you want I can find an article about the survey for it, especially for you). The authorities of the Russian capital have decided to organise a local referendum about rebuilding a monument in Dzerzhinsky’s honour. Do you know who Dzerzhinsky was? Have your heard something about so-called ‘red terror’?

And by the way, what is your opinion about the so-called Congress of European Nazis which was held in St Petersburg in the spring of 2015?


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="tinydancer, post: 11723161, member: 25451"]So who the fuck wants to tell me that the nazis in Kiev who overthrew a true government elected by the people of the Ukraine are people we should be supporting?[ QUOTE
	
]


You're right, Tiny, and even a Congressman supports your point of view. On June, 17 there was a sharp discussion in American Congress between Samantha Power, American representative in UN and Dana Rohrabacher (R), who was asking her uncomfortable questions about Ukraine.

Watch how she prefers to answer a respectable congressman’s questions, which are uncomfortable for her: “I do not listen to Mr. Putin’s claims.” (Same way all Obama’s Administration (Jen Psaki, Marie Harf, etc.) answers all the uncomfortable questions from the press. Same way Obama presents his “irrefutable evidence”: just because I say so.)

Watch the video from 1.10.14 up to 1.14.09:

Dana Rohrabacher:

-  I’d like to ask you about Ukraine. You described civilians were shelled by Russian allies there in Ukraine. I went over to Europe and met with some intelligence agencies in various countries and they were telling me that actually Ukrainian military which was 1/3 made up of people who  were not in military but instead on a payroll of some oligarch. They have heavy artillery and indiscriminately were shelling separatists’ villages.

-  If you are a US representative you should pay
	
 attention to everybody’s claims and you should refute them rather than dismissing them.

-  I happen to believe there was a coup in Ukraine, meaning *violent overthrow* of the elected government. If it did not happen we would not be in this situation and the Ukrainians would have been spared this.

-  *It did not start with Russia going into separatists’ areas*, that’s not where it started.

Ambassador Samantha Power Testimony US Interests Video C-SPAN.org

Finally we have heard somebody recognizing *the sequence of events *in Ukraine at such a high level as US Congress. Well done, Mr. Rohrabacher! That’s a man!


----------



## Wry Catcher

CrusaderFrank said:


> PitStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.
> 
> The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west.
> 
> Salutin Putin inside a Russian troll house World news The Guardian
> 
> A Russian freelance journalist who claims she went undercover as a pro-government Internet troll says she is suing her former employer in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin's online army.
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obama has a similar operation run out of Jake Starkey's basement
Click to expand...


Idiot-gram ^^^, a perfect example of someone who has nothing to offer posting nothing of substance in a desperate need for attention.

Everyone please acknowledge CrusaderFrank, he needs the attention and won't go away until he gets some.


----------



## Ame®icano

tinydancer said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are a liar like your boss Putin. I found many web site claiming Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army and each is propoganda set up by your master or one of his minions. He has established a very elaborate propaganda tool on the web.  He will go from country to country with the same line, until he finally re-establishes the old USSR.  The message will be the same.  'WE MUST INVADE TO PROTECT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE LIVING THERE!"
> 
> No one is buying it, except people like you, who collect a check from the boss in Moscow.  Do you have a picture of him shirtless over your headboard
> 
> A better picture to remember Putin would be the scattered body party of the innocent people that his troops shot from the sky.  See if that turns you on...
> 
> How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine - The Daily Beast
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You dumb fuck. I put up a link to the Telegraph. Britain's Telegraph.
> 
> They sure as hell aren't Putin's minions. Man oh man, the truth can smack a liberal in the head and they wouldn't see it.
Click to expand...


----------



## tinydancer

ESay said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You people who love Kiev and the nazi supporters in Kiev don't you care about what they did to the Poles?
> 
> I fight my own on this love of this Nazi Bandera. But to witness good people defending these actions of these bastards in Kiev is like a stake through my heart.
> 
> They slaughtered so many. Yet here we are on a message board with posters defending the nazi lovers in Kiev.
> 
> Unfreaking real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are crying so loud about neo-Nazis in Ukraine, Bandera, and so on.
> But, unfortunately, you are not crying about those bastards who are not any better than these ‘banderovtsi’. I am talking about bolshevics. How many crimes did they commit during their rules in 1920-30-s? Have you heard something about mass repressions, deportations, starvation, and so on? And despite of this, Stalin is almost a national hero in Russia, with almost half Russian population thinking his politic was right (If you want I can find an article about the survey for it, especially for you). The authorities of the Russian capital have decided to organise a local referendum about rebuilding a monument in Dzerzhinsky’s honour. Do you know who Dzerzhinsky was? Have your heard something about so-called ‘red terror’?
> 
> And by the way, what is your opinion about the so-called Congress of European Nazis which was held in St Petersburg in the spring of 2015?
Click to expand...


Ok fuck face get a grip. I'm Ukrainian third generation out here in Manitoba Canada.

I know my history better than you do.

I have hated the USSR since breathing my first breath. Stalin is my most hated figure in my life other than Cromwell making slaves out of the other half of my heritage, the Irish.

Fuck you trying to tell me that the neo Nazis that run Kiev are sweet cheeks now.


----------



## tinydancer

What part of Kiev don't you guys get? Nazi looks good on these bastards. 

If you don't understand why the east wants to run away from the crazies that overthrew their government you are fucking assholes.

Straight up assholes.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Wry Catcher said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PitStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.
> 
> The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west.
> 
> Salutin Putin inside a Russian troll house World news The Guardian
> 
> A Russian freelance journalist who claims she went undercover as a pro-government Internet troll says she is suing her former employer in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin's online army.
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obama has a similar operation run out of Jake Starkey's basement
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Idiot-gram ^^^, a perfect example of someone who has nothing to offer posting nothing of substance in a desperate need for attention.
> 
> Everyone please acknowledge CrusaderFrank, he needs the attention and won't go away until he gets some.
Click to expand...


It's called a joke, Freddo.

How's the casino business?


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also.
> Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where do you get the idea that the US does not know who shot down the passenger jet? They have repeatedly blamed Russian separatist under Russian control who used a Russian weapon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You bet the US gov knows and that may be why they have failed to prove the Russian backed rebels did it.
> 
> Does it not concern you that the US gov has been very quiet about this tragedy and has yet to provide any concrete proof of their acquisitions?  Apparently it does not.
> 
> When you accuse a nation of an act of war, you better back it up.  Why has the US gov NOT backed it up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have backed it up. You just refuse to acknowledge the evidence. You have no answers to the evidence I have already suggested as viable evidence. You do as I claimed, you simply ignore it. You can not answer why a leader of the separatist admitted knowledge of a BUK missile system under separatist control or the posting on social networks claiming the shoot down of an aircraft. You can not explain the cell phone intercepts. You just ignore the evidence or make lame excuses.
Click to expand...

If that were so, don't you think the Dutch would also know this information?


----------



## tinydancer

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is your research and proof? The Dutch nor any other investigators have a specific name or names to prosecute. In all likelihood the operators of the BUK who screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner instead of a military aircraft have been long since been terminated and those with the slightest connections and knowledge transferred and hidden away if not eliminated also.
> Intercepts from cell phone conversations between separatist and Russian military announcing the shoot down of an  aircraft, social media by separatist proclaiming the same, a separatist leader admitting a Russian BUK was in the area that day, photo's of the exact BUK in Russia, entering Ukraine and returning to Russia are some of the evidence that separatist with Russian assistance shot down that airliner. What do you have other than the Dutch haven't arrested anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where do you get the idea that the US does not know who shot down the passenger jet? They have repeatedly blamed Russian separatist under Russian control who used a Russian weapon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You bet the US gov knows and that may be why they have failed to prove the Russian backed rebels did it.
> 
> Does it not concern you that the US gov has been very quiet about this tragedy and has yet to provide any concrete proof of their acquisitions?  Apparently it does not.
> 
> When you accuse a nation of an act of war, you better back it up.  Why has the US gov NOT backed it up?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have backed it up. You just refuse to acknowledge the evidence. You have no answers to the evidence I have already suggested as viable evidence. You do as I claimed, you simply ignore it. You can not answer why a leader of the separatist admitted knowledge of a BUK missile system under separatist control or the posting on social networks claiming the shoot down of an aircraft. You can not explain the cell phone intercepts. You just ignore the evidence or make lame excuses.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If that were so, don't you think the Dutch would also know this information?
Click to expand...


If they could prove that the Russians shot down the plane they would have it out there.

They can't.

On the other hand by a track record, the Ukraine did down a Russian plane. 

On the record.


----------



## JimH52

So Putin must be paying well with all these lies being posted.  Oil is up again, I assume?


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="tinydancer, post: 11723042, member: 25451"]
Look up Bandera. War criminal. Nazi. Adored by Poroshenko. Had Waffen SS for crying out loud.
Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization[ QUOTE
	
]

Ukrainian "patriots" are very special: during WW2 when Hitler came to Western Ukraine, they welcomed him with bread and salt and were fighting on his side. For 24 years since the USSR has collapsed they have been celebrating their "independence" so grandiosely every year but have not achieved or created ANYTHING since that (though Yanukovich has built several good roads and new airports before Euro-2012; however the bran new airport in Donetsk has been already destroyed by Ukrainians' shelling last year). Now they are licking the feet of EU and USA, dreaming for being adopted by them, and at the same time they are condemning Russia and Putin. But in a couple of years when USA squeezes all the juice from them and abandons Ukraine (just like they left Iraq, Libya, Syria in ruins), whose feet do you think those Ukrainian "patriots" will be ready to lick next and to beg for food and money? Something tells me: it will be their big sister Russia...





Their life and the life of all their artificially created country would be so much better if they followed one simple rule: "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."


----------



## JimH52

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11723042, member: 25451"]
> Look up Bandera. War criminal. Nazi. Adored by Poroshenko. Had Waffen SS for crying out loud.
> Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Ukrainian "patriots" are very special: during WW2 when Hitler came to Western Ukraine, they welcomed him with bread and salt and were fighting on his side. For 24 years since the USSR has collapsed they have been celebrating their "independence" so grandiosely every year but have not achieved or created ANYTHING since that (though Yanukovich has built several good roads and new airports before Euro-2012; however the bran new airport in Donetsk has been already destroyed by Ukrainians' shelling last year). Now they are licking the feet of EU and USA, dreaming for being adopted by them, and at the same time they are condemning Russia and Putin. But in a couple of years when USA squeezes all the juice from them and abandons Ukraine (just like they left Iraq, Libya, Syria in ruins), whose feet do you think those Ukrainian "patriots" will be ready to lick next and to beg for food and money? Something tells me: it will be their big sister Russia...
> View attachment 43540
> 
> Their life and the life of all their artificially created country would be so much better if they followed one simple rule: "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."



Vladimir needs to send you back to basic English classes.  Obviously it is not your first language.


----------



## tinydancer

JimH52 said:


> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11723042, member: 25451"]
> Look up Bandera. War criminal. Nazi. Adored by Poroshenko. Had Waffen SS for crying out loud.
> Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Ukrainian "patriots" are very special: during WW2 when Hitler came to Western Ukraine, they welcomed him with bread and salt and were fighting on his side. For 24 years since the USSR has collapsed they have been celebrating their "independence" so grandiosely every year but have not achieved or created ANYTHING since that (though Yanukovich has built several good roads and new airports before Euro-2012; however the bran new airport in Donetsk has been already destroyed by Ukrainians' shelling last year). Now they are licking the feet of EU and USA, dreaming for being adopted by them, and at the same time they are condemning Russia and Putin. But in a couple of years when USA squeezes all the juice from them and abandons Ukraine (just like they left Iraq, Libya, Syria in ruins), whose feet do you think those Ukrainian "patriots" will be ready to lick next and to beg for food and money? Something tells me: it will be their big sister Russia...
> View attachment 43540
> 
> Their life and the life of all their artificially created country would be so much better if they followed one simple rule: "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vladimir needs to send you back to basic English classes.  Obviously it is not your first language.
Click to expand...


English my first. French hey I'm a canuck no option is my second. Ukrainian third. German fourth (married to a kraut)  Russian toying with.

I still know we are backing neo nazis no matter if I only understand swedish. Oh and my daughter lived in Sweden and trust me they have no use for vowels. I gave up on the language.


----------



## tinydancer

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11723042, member: 25451"]
> Look up Bandera. War criminal. Nazi. Adored by Poroshenko. Had Waffen SS for crying out loud.
> Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Ukrainian "patriots" are very special: during WW2 when Hitler came to Western Ukraine, they welcomed him with bread and salt and were fighting on his side. For 24 years since the USSR has collapsed they have been celebrating their "independence" so grandiosely every year but have not achieved or created ANYTHING since that (though Yanukovich has built several good roads and new airports before Euro-2012; however the bran new airport in Donetsk has been already destroyed by Ukrainians' shelling last year). Now they are licking the feet of EU and USA, dreaming for being adopted by them, and at the same time they are condemning Russia and Putin.
> 
> But in a couple of years when USA squeezes all the juice from them and abandons Ukraine (just like they left Iraq, Libya, Syria in ruins), whose feet do you think those Ukrainian "patriots" will be ready to lick next and to beg for food and money? Something tells me: it will be their big sister Russia...
> View attachment 43540
> 
> Their life and the life of all their artificially created country would be so much better if they followed one simple rule: "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."



I'm having a very hard time working this out as you can imagine.

I hate NO I loathe the Stalin days that killed off so many of my people. But Russia and Russians are not those people. I have nothing against them.

That would be as stupid as me hating all my husbands family that is German would it not for past sins?

I live in the here and now. And this here and now frightens me that the Banderites are given this bizarre pass on genocide of the Poles.

Because they believe in Bandera again. In the here and now. 

I do not understand this whatsoever.


----------



## Wry Catcher

tinydancer said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You people who love Kiev and the nazi supporters in Kiev don't you care about what they did to the Poles?
> 
> I fight my own on this love of this Nazi Bandera. But to witness good people defending these actions of these bastards in Kiev is like a stake through my heart.
> 
> They slaughtered so many. Yet here we are on a message board with posters defending the nazi lovers in Kiev.
> 
> Unfreaking real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are crying so loud about neo-Nazis in Ukraine, Bandera, and so on.
> But, unfortunately, you are not crying about those bastards who are not any better than these ‘banderovtsi’. I am talking about bolshevics. How many crimes did they commit during their rules in 1920-30-s? Have you heard something about mass repressions, deportations, starvation, and so on? And despite of this, Stalin is almost a national hero in Russia, with almost half Russian population thinking his politic was right (If you want I can find an article about the survey for it, especially for you). The authorities of the Russian capital have decided to organise a local referendum about rebuilding a monument in Dzerzhinsky’s honour. Do you know who Dzerzhinsky was? Have your heard something about so-called ‘red terror’?
> 
> And by the way, what is your opinion about the so-called Congress of European Nazis which was held in St Petersburg in the spring of 2015?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok fuck face get a grip. I'm Ukrainian third generation out here in Manitoba Canada.
> 
> I know my history better than you do.
> 
> I have hated the USSR since breathing my first breath. Stalin is my most hated figure in my life other than Cromwell making slaves out of the other half of my heritage, the Irish.
> 
> Fuck you trying to tell me that the neo Nazis that run Kiev are sweet cheeks now.
Click to expand...


OMG, my college SO was half Irish and have Russian - a very interesting combination of DNA.  45 years later we still communicate, much better than when we lived together.


----------



## Wry Catcher

CrusaderFrank said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PitStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.
> 
> The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west.
> 
> Salutin Putin inside a Russian troll house World news The Guardian
> 
> A Russian freelance journalist who claims she went undercover as a pro-government Internet troll says she is suing her former employer in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin's online army.
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obama has a similar operation run out of Jake Starkey's basement
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Idiot-gram ^^^, a perfect example of someone who has nothing to offer posting nothing of substance in a desperate need for attention.
> 
> Everyone please acknowledge CrusaderFrank, he needs the attention and won't go away until he gets some.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's called a joke, Freddo.
> 
> How's the casino business?
Click to expand...


Ha Ha.  (sarcasm alert).  The good news is the US Women beat Germany 2 - 0 a few moments ago.  See,  an off topic post can be substantive, try it sometime Frank.


----------



## tinydancer

Wry Catcher said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You people who love Kiev and the nazi supporters in Kiev don't you care about what they did to the Poles?
> 
> I fight my own on this love of this Nazi Bandera. But to witness good people defending these actions of these bastards in Kiev is like a stake through my heart.
> 
> They slaughtered so many. Yet here we are on a message board with posters defending the nazi lovers in Kiev.
> 
> Unfreaking real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are crying so loud about neo-Nazis in Ukraine, Bandera, and so on.
> But, unfortunately, you are not crying about those bastards who are not any better than these ‘banderovtsi’. I am talking about bolshevics. How many crimes did they commit during their rules in 1920-30-s? Have you heard something about mass repressions, deportations, starvation, and so on? And despite of this, Stalin is almost a national hero in Russia, with almost half Russian population thinking his politic was right (If you want I can find an article about the survey for it, especially for you). The authorities of the Russian capital have decided to organise a local referendum about rebuilding a monument in Dzerzhinsky’s honour. Do you know who Dzerzhinsky was? Have your heard something about so-called ‘red terror’?
> 
> And by the way, what is your opinion about the so-called Congress of European Nazis which was held in St Petersburg in the spring of 2015?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok fuck face get a grip. I'm Ukrainian third generation out here in Manitoba Canada.
> 
> I know my history better than you do.
> 
> I have hated the USSR since breathing my first breath. Stalin is my most hated figure in my life other than Cromwell making slaves out of the other half of my heritage, the Irish.
> 
> Fuck you trying to tell me that the neo Nazis that run Kiev are sweet cheeks now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OMG, my college SO was half Irish and have Russian - a very interesting combination of DNA.  45 years later we still communicate, much better than when we lived together.
Click to expand...


Well at least tell me the neo nazi side of the family at least isn't trying to kill rebels.


----------



## skye

Leave Ukraine where it has always belonged, in Russia.

Ukraine is Russian it has been and it always will be.

Nazis don't belong  in Ukraine....Obama knows shit about history.


----------



## tinydancer

JimH52 said:


> So Putin must be paying well with all these lies being posted.  Oil is up again, I assume?



Look fool. Not everything not everyone is a fairy tale on the net.

I've never had to pretend to be "something" or "someone "  on the internet. 

My life has rocked. I have loved most every minute of it. All three husbands to a gold, platinum, double platinum and a Juno award, two daughters, one son to being a top notch salesperson in the pet industry to being one of the most awesome Canuck Catahoula breeders on the planet and an awesome gardener.

 I don't have to pretend to be something or someone because I have been so blessed I can brag on.

No down time with me. No having to take money to post bullshit on the net.

In the famous words of one of my favorite cartoon peoples.........

I y'am what I y'am.

When I tell you that I am third generation Ukrainian on my mothers side living in a piss ant wonderful little town called Sundown Manitoba after retiring from rock and roll and other ventures, it's for real. 

So when I tell you I understand many of my fellow Uks from the west it's for real.

They really do love and adore Bandera while I want to bring our dark past and our genocide that we perpetrated on the Poles into the light.

Bandera was a Nazi. Fellow western Uks were Nazi. This is not a joke. This is not an opinion. 

This truth is as real as I am. I only recognize truth.

And we are backing a nazi regime in Kiev. It's just what it is. 

Truth upsets people. I understand that. But to back Kiev is to back nazis.

It is what it is.

If you wish to refute me and make Bandera and his current day idolizing worshipers in Kiev heroes of the Ukraine by all means tell me how Bandera and the OUN fought for the Ukraine slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Polish women and children in the name of nationalism, by all means do so.


----------



## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11723042, member: 25451"]
> Look up Bandera. War criminal. Nazi. Adored by Poroshenko. Had Waffen SS for crying out loud.
> Ukraine s Neo-Nazis. Stepan Bandera and the Legacy of World War II Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Ukrainian "patriots" are very special: during WW2 when Hitler came to Western Ukraine, they welcomed him with bread and salt and were fighting on his side. For 24 years since the USSR has collapsed they have been celebrating their "independence" so grandiosely every year but have not achieved or created ANYTHING since that (though Yanukovich has built several good roads and new airports before Euro-2012; however the bran new airport in Donetsk has been already destroyed by Ukrainians' shelling last year). Now they are licking the feet of EU and USA, dreaming for being adopted by them, and at the same time they are condemning Russia and Putin. But in a couple of years when USA squeezes all the juice from them and abandons Ukraine (just like they left Iraq, Libya, Syria in ruins), whose feet do you think those Ukrainian "patriots" will be ready to lick next and to beg for food and money? Something tells me: it will be their big sister Russia...
> View attachment 43540
> 
> Their life and the life of all their artificially created country would be so much better if they followed one simple rule: "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."



---
Yanukovich was a Putin patsy from the eastern Donbas taking lots of Russian money *and* using a disproportionate amount of Ukraine's revenue and spending it in the Donbas to satisfy the Russians living there. No wonder the Russian terrorists/"separatists" in the Donbas were upset with the Kiev takeover. Unfortunately, they started ethnic cleansing the Ukrainians in the Donbas with Putin's help, and tried to keep the Ukis from voting in the general election, which was internationally monitored. 

The general Ukrainian population just wants PEACE and be rid of the Kremlin's grip on them, which sees them as a "little brother". Ukraine wants to prosper like Poland did when they joined EU.
Russian nationalist fascists who support Putin treat Ukis like slaves, and kill their own Russian dissidents like Nemtsov.


----------



## PK1

skye said:


> Leave Ukraine where it has always belonged, in Russia.
> 
> Ukraine is Russian it has been and it always will be.
> 
> Nazis don't belong  in Ukraine....Obama knows shit about history.



---
Apparently, you know squat about Ukraine & its people. Did you know that Ukraine has its own language and it's more similar to Polish than Russian?
Does Poland belong in Russia?
Geez.


----------



## PK1

tinydancer said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Putin must be paying well with all these lies being posted.  Oil is up again, I assume?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look fool. Not everything not everyone is a fairy tale on the net.
> 
> I've never had to pretend to be "something" or "someone "  on the internet.
> 
> My life has rocked. I have loved most every minute of it. All three husbands to a gold, platinum, double platinum and a Juno award, two daughters, one son to being a top notch salesperson in the pet industry to being one of the most awesome Canuck Catahoula breeders on the planet and an awesome gardener.
> 
> I don't have to pretend to be something or someone because I have been so blessed I can brag on.
> 
> No down time with me. No having to take money to post bullshit on the net.
> 
> In the famous words of one of my favorite cartoon peoples.........
> 
> I y'am what I y'am.
> 
> When I tell you that I am third generation Ukrainian on my mothers side living in a piss ant wonderful little town called Sundown Manitoba after retiring from rock and roll and other ventures, it's for real.
> 
> So when I tell you I understand many of my fellow Uks from the west it's for real.
> 
> They really do love and adore Bandera while I want to bring our dark past and our genocide that we perpetrated on the Poles into the light.
> 
> Bandera was a Nazi. Fellow western Uks were Nazi. This is not a joke. This is not an opinion.
> 
> This truth is as real as I am. I only recognize truth.
> 
> And we are backing a nazi regime in Kiev. It's just what it is.
> 
> Truth upsets people. I understand that. But to back Kiev is to back nazis.
> 
> It is what it is.
> 
> If you wish to refute me and make Bandera and his current day idolizing worshipers in Kiev heroes of the Ukraine by all means tell me how Bandera and the OUN fought for the Ukraine slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Polish women and children in the name of nationalism, by all means do so.
Click to expand...


---
Boy, do you have a hard-on for Bandera!
No one here or in Ukraine (except for those few racist idiots) is proud of the killings of Poles during WW2. 
Are present day Russians proud of Stalin's killings in the Ukraine ... other than the Russian racist nationalists?

As i mentioned before, Bandera was not a Nazi in the German view, since Hitler put Bandera in a concentration camp for 3 years. He did collude with the Germans when they invaded, but that was because they got rid of Stalin.


----------



## skye

Ukraine belongs to Russia.

PERIOD.


RUSSIA

fucking hell some here are so dense...


----------



## PK1

skye said:


> Ukraine belongs to Russia.
> 
> PERIOD.
> 
> 
> RUSSIA
> 
> fucking hell some here are so dense...



---
So, Poland belongs to Russia too?
Moron!


----------



## skye

sorry

I care more about Russia than 

gay marriage and shit ..I care more what is happening in the world not that ....

don't you???


----------



## skye

PK1 said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine belongs to Russia.
> 
> PERIOD.
> 
> 
> RUSSIA
> 
> fucking hell some here are so dense...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> So, Poland belongs to Russia too?
> Moron!
Click to expand...

Poland is not Ukraine


----------



## ESay

tinydancer said:


> I hate NO I loathe the Stalin days that killed off so many of my people. But Russia and Russians are not those people. I have nothing against them.



Of course, they are not those people. Just half of the Russian population supports Stalin’s deeds, and almost certainly there will soon be a monument of Dzerzhinsky in front of a famous building on Lubianka. Apparently, the monument will be a reminder for Russian contemporary ‘chekists’ how they should work.

But when the Ukrainian population gave less than 5% to Svoboda party and 2% or so to the Right Sector on the last elections, it means that Nazis are ruling in Kiev.

Do you answer only on those questions which are appropriate for you? If I remember correctly, you haven’t given an answer on my question:
_What is your opinion about the so-called Congress of European Nazis which was held in St Petersburg in the spring of 2015?_


And, honey, I won’t go anywhere despite of your wishes. If you don’t want to read the posts of people who are debunking your shit, then take emails of local Putin-lovers and mix up with them privately.


----------



## tinydancer

PK1 said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Putin must be paying well with all these lies being posted.  Oil is up again, I assume?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look fool. Not everything not everyone is a fairy tale on the net.
> 
> I've never had to pretend to be "something" or "someone "  on the internet.
> 
> My life has rocked. I have loved most every minute of it. All three husbands to a gold, platinum, double platinum and a Juno award, two daughters, one son to being a top notch salesperson in the pet industry to being one of the most awesome Canuck Catahoula breeders on the planet and an awesome gardener.
> 
> I don't have to pretend to be something or someone because I have been so blessed I can brag on.
> 
> No down time with me. No having to take money to post bullshit on the net.
> 
> In the famous words of one of my favorite cartoon peoples.........
> 
> I y'am what I y'am.
> 
> When I tell you that I am third generation Ukrainian on my mothers side living in a piss ant wonderful little town called Sundown Manitoba after retiring from rock and roll and other ventures, it's for real.
> 
> So when I tell you I understand many of my fellow Uks from the west it's for real.
> 
> They really do love and adore Bandera while I want to bring our dark past and our genocide that we perpetrated on the Poles into the light.
> 
> Bandera was a Nazi. Fellow western Uks were Nazi. This is not a joke. This is not an opinion.
> 
> This truth is as real as I am. I only recognize truth.
> 
> And we are backing a nazi regime in Kiev. It's just what it is.
> 
> Truth upsets people. I understand that. But to back Kiev is to back nazis.
> 
> It is what it is.
> 
> If you wish to refute me and make Bandera and his current day idolizing worshipers in Kiev heroes of the Ukraine by all means tell me how Bandera and the OUN fought for the Ukraine slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Polish women and children in the name of nationalism, by all means do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Boy, do you have a hard-on for Bandera!
> No one here or in Ukraine (except for those few racist idiots) is proud of the killings of Poles during WW2.
> Are present day Russians proud of Stalin's killings in the Ukraine ... other than the Russian racist nationalists?
> 
> As i mentioned before, Bandera was not a Nazi in the German view, since Hitler put Bandera in a concentration camp for 3 years. He did collude with the Germans when they invaded, but that was because they got rid of Stalin.
Click to expand...


OUN killed how many Poles under Bandera? It's still listed as a war crime with the war criminal buried IN FUCKING MUNICH FOR GODS SAKE. 

Two Waffen SS divisions?  Oh I have to remember like camp says, they arent really nazi nazis.


----------



## tinydancer

ESay said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate NO I loathe the Stalin days that killed off so many of my people. But Russia and Russians are not those people. I have nothing against them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, they are not those people. Just half of the Russian population supports Stalin’s deeds, and almost certainly there will soon be a monument of Dzerzhinsky in front of a famous building on Lubianka. Apparently, the monument will be a reminder for Russian contemporary ‘chekists’ how they should work.
> 
> But when the Ukrainian population gave less than 5% to Svoboda party and 2% or so to the Right Sector on the last elections, it means that Nazis are ruling in Kiev.
> 
> Do you answer only on those questions which are appropriate for you? If I remember correctly, you haven’t given an answer on my question:
> _What is your opinion about the so-called Congress of European Nazis which was held in St Petersburg in the spring of 2015?_
> 
> 
> And, honey, I won’t go anywhere despite of your wishes. If you don’t want to read the posts of people who are debunking your shit, then take emails of local Putin-lovers and mix up with them privately.
Click to expand...


Poroshenko just made Bandera a Ukrainian hero don't you know ?

And Yarosh is an adviser now. Go fuck yourself nazi lover. And unabashedly neo nazis are backed by Kiev to fight against the proud rebels in the east. 

Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias - Business Insider



AFP More: AFP
*Ukraine far-right leader made army advisor in move to control militias*


----------



## tinydancer

Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.

What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.


----------



## tinydancer

PK1 said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leave Ukraine where it has always belonged, in Russia.
> 
> Ukraine is Russian it has been and it always will be.
> 
> Nazis don't belong  in Ukraine....Obama knows shit about history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Apparently, you know squat about Ukraine & its people. Did you know that Ukraine has its own language and it's more similar to Polish than Russian?
> Does Poland belong in Russia?
> Geez.
Click to expand...


Ukrainians killed hundreds of thousands of Poles in WWII in a genocide attempt. 

Next?


----------



## tinydancer

OK killing of hundreds of thousands of Poles beat back Russia?

I can't wait for the geographical argument that you guys have been putting out there that Bandera was fighting the Ruskies. 

Give er guys! I can't wait to hear it 

They are at the east end of the Ukraine killing, slaughtering , maiming Poles and Russia's coming in from where?

This is Banderas handiwork

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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


----------



## tinydancer




----------



## PK1

tinydancer said:


>



---
You are sounding like a broken record now ... posting the same old Russian one-sided stuff over & over, and not responding to counter info.
That's a losing position in debates.

That picture of Donbas deaths ... you can thank the RUSSIAN invaders.
Do you want to see a counter photo of dead children in Ukraine during the Holodomor at the hands of RUSSIAN Stalinists?


----------



## Camp

Wow, the Canadian rock star braggart who lectures as an expert because several generations ago relatives of one of her parents came from Ukraine is arguing with actual Ukrainians about Ukraine history and posting photo's of dead and mangled children to reinforce her opinions. She has support from some other idiot that is insisting that Ukraine, with it's own language and culture is actually Russia. Doubtful either one of these experts has stepped a foot anywhere in Ukraine or converses with Ukrainians or Russians. It is probably just a coincidence that they echo Putin's talking points like parrots. These two suckers are obviously influenced by the Russian propaganda machine.

Americans should consider this. When a rally of southerners display the confederate flag, does that mean that everyone in the south are racist traitors? When enemies of America show photo's of dead children killed by collateral damage or being caught in the crossfire, does that make all Americans guilty of murder and war criminals? Does it even make all of our military guilty of these tragedies?

This is the kind of disinformation being pushed out of the Putin propaganda mill and echoed by the self proclaimed rock star used to be. Fact is that independent observers and journalist have reported atrocities and war crimes on both sides of this conflict. That is always how it is. For one side to accuse the other of the same crimes it is committing itself is an age old propagandist tool. It attracts the low bearing fruit. The easiest people to influence and mislead because it attracts through emotion. No evidence is needed to show where the photo's came from or who committed the damage. It doesn't make a difference because it is not meant to influence people who have been in war zones. It is meant to influence those who have not. Those who have been in war zones know the reality of war zones. They understand the horror of a simple fact. Everyone is responsible for these kinds of tragedies and incidents. Soldiers know this the best. 

Only one thing needs to be known and understood about the conflict in Ukraine. Russian troops, disguised as separatist or as volunteers do not belong in Ukraine. Russian weapons like tanks,artillery and BUK missile systems do not belong in Ukraine. That is why the Russians deny and lie about them being there. The only way foreign troops belong in a nation is when the recognized and legitimate government invites them to be there. 

Ukraine has an internationally recognized government that was elected in elections monitored by international groups tasked with insuring fair elections. This was done after the so called "coup". The current government in Ukraine has very few of the so called neo-Nazi groups involved in it. The neo Nazi's were overwhelmingly rejected by the Ukrainian voters. Those are the facts. No matter how many neo Nazi stories and horrible photo's these people post, Russia does not belong in Ukraine. The horrible incidents that create those kinds of horrible photo's will only end when Russia gets out of Ukraine and stops supporting the war with weapons. That is how wars always end and peace is achieved. Borders are respected and countries adhere to international law designed to maintain peace. Number one rule, don't send your tanks and troops across your neighbors border.


----------



## FA_Q2

gipper said:


> Russia's invasion???  Really???
> 
> Why are you posting propaganda?


That is not propaganda. It is fact that there are Russian troops operating in the sovereign borders of another nation without that nations consent.  That is an invasion, pure and simple.  If all you see is propaganda then you are very guilty of the very same thing that you want to accuse others of doing.


----------



## FA_Q2

gipper said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! How many know that Putin is using Russian neo nazis as part of the invasion force murdering citizens of Ukraine in his illegal invasion?
> Why does Russia need special propaganda unit for internet when they have help from the Tinydancer's and CruesaderFranks already trolling for Putler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let'see now...Obama commits a coup in Ukraine overthrowing the elected government and installing an anti-Russian leader causing many deaths....then a civilian airliner is shot down over Ukraine and Obama and the West instantly proclaim Russian rebels did it, but tellingly offer no proof.
> But hey! Its all Putin's fault and we should go to war with Russia over Ukraine...so think the neo-cons and statists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you stating that it was not the separatists that shot down that airliner?
> That is a hell of a claim. How about YOU support that contention rather than complaining that is what other people believe. Quite frankly, I think it is rather clear that the separatists shot that plane down.
> If that is not your contention then your entire statement is nonsensical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no proof Russian rebels shot down the jetliner.  Stop believing propaganda.  Just do some research and you will find the answers.  I can't do it for you.
Click to expand...

I notice that you did not actually respond to my statements. It is easy to blankly demand that everyone else is wrong. You are providing absolutely nothing in response.  Try actually making a statement as to who shot the plane down (as you seem to think there is some conspiracy surrounding the official story) and back it up./  Otherwise, all your statements about everyone else believing the ‘propaganda’ is nothing more than bloviating.


----------



## FA_Q2

gipper said:


> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?


 
Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.


gipper said:


> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?


The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.


----------



## gipper

FA_Q2 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
> How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.
Click to expand...

Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.

I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.

*It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*

*MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
*PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
*Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*

Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?

The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.  

*Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?

Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.


----------



## JimH52

PK1 said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leave Ukraine where it has always belonged, in Russia.
> 
> Ukraine is Russian it has been and it always will be.
> 
> Nazis don't belong  in Ukraine....Obama knows shit about history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Apparently, you know squat about Ukraine & its people. Did you know that Ukraine has its own language and it's more similar to Polish than Russian?
> Does Poland belong in Russia?
> Geez.
Click to expand...


Yes, the Poootin worshippers will say it does.  Their goal is to help Poootin reassemble the USSR.  He has plans to bring back the old Soviet Bear.  I am very surprised that there are so many Russian sympathizers on USMB.  Seems Poootin has learned from ISIS.  Social media is the way to go!


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.

What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE
	
]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really *cares* about Ukraine? Look:

- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there *ARE* quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think.  I'd love to thank them a lot!!!


----------



## G.T.

Lol tiny <3's putin. Always has. Shes no american anyhow...shes a canuck.


----------



## ChrisL

PitStewart said:


> Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.
> 
> The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west.
> 
> Salutin Putin inside a Russian troll house World news The Guardian
> 
> A Russian freelance journalist who claims she went undercover as a pro-government Internet troll says she is suing her former employer in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin's online army.
> "This propaganda on the Internet is very dangerous," Lyudmila Savchuk, 34. "It has to be brought to light."
> 
> Russia has been waiting for a long time for such a person. I appreciate her work, she is a real hero. Hope, she will find patience to keep on struggling for the truth. Such a great example of personal involvement! Good luck!



She'll probably turn up mysteriously missing.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
> How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.
> 
> I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.
> 
> *It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*
> 
> *MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
> *PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
> *Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*
> 
> Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?
> 
> The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.
> 
> *Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?
> 
> Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.
Click to expand...

Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
> How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.
> 
> I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.
> 
> *It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*
> 
> *MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
> *PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
> *Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*
> 
> Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?
> 
> The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.
> 
> *Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?
> 
> Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.
Click to expand...

Does not matter.  Why do you persist with your foolishness?

My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation.  Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see?  He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case.  He is the POTUS!!!  

Why are you grabbing at straws?  

Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?  

Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?


----------



## ESay

Camp said:


> Wow, the Canadian rock star braggart who lectures as an expert because several generations ago relatives of one of her parents came from Ukraine is arguing with actual Ukrainians about Ukraine history and posting photo's of dead and mangled children to reinforce her opinions. She has support from some other idiot that is insisting that Ukraine, with it's own language and culture is actually Russia. Doubtful either one of these experts has stepped a foot anywhere in Ukraine or converses with Ukrainians or Russians. It is probably just a coincidence that they echo Putin's talking points like parrots. These two suckers are obviously influenced by the Russian propaganda machine.
> 
> Americans should consider this. When a rally of southerners display the confederate flag, does that mean that everyone in the south are racist traitors? When enemies of America show photo's of dead children killed by collateral damage or being caught in the crossfire, does that make all Americans guilty of murder and war criminals? Does it even make all of our military guilty of these tragedies?
> 
> This is the kind of disinformation being pushed out of the Putin propaganda mill and echoed by the self proclaimed rock star used to be. Fact is that independent observers and journalist have reported atrocities and war crimes on both sides of this conflict. That is always how it is. For one side to accuse the other of the same crimes it is committing itself is an age old propagandist tool. It attracts the low bearing fruit. The easiest people to influence and mislead because it attracts through emotion. No evidence is needed to show where the photo's came from or who committed the damage. It doesn't make a difference because it is not meant to influence people who have been in war zones. It is meant to influence those who have not. Those who have been in war zones know the reality of war zones. They understand the horror of a simple fact. Everyone is responsible for these kinds of tragedies and incidents. Soldiers know this the best.
> 
> Only one thing needs to be known and understood about the conflict in Ukraine. Russian troops, disguised as separatist or as volunteers do not belong in Ukraine. Russian weapons like tanks,artillery and BUK missile systems do not belong in Ukraine. That is why the Russians deny and lie about them being there. The only way foreign troops belong in a nation is when the recognized and legitimate government invites them to be there.
> 
> Ukraine has an internationally recognized government that was elected in elections monitored by international groups tasked with insuring fair elections. This was done after the so called "coup". The current government in Ukraine has very few of the so called neo-Nazi groups involved in it. The neo Nazi's were overwhelmingly rejected by the Ukrainian voters. Those are the facts. No matter how many neo Nazi stories and horrible photo's these people post, Russia does not belong in Ukraine. The horrible incidents that create those kinds of horrible photo's will only end when Russia gets out of Ukraine and stops supporting the war with weapons. That is how wars always end and peace is achieved. Borders are respected and countries adhere to international law designed to maintain peace. Number one rule, don't send your tanks and troops across your neighbors border.



Thanks for your post. Though, I don’t think it will change much, unfortunately. I mean maybe it will be helpful for someone who accidentally came across this thread and who hasn’t been following closely the events in Ukraine and its history, but it won’t definitely change much in the creative work of our “truth-seekers”. There will be the same photos, articles, statements, pictures, and so on. Have you noticed that they are completely ignoring questions which are not suitable for them?

About the Boeing. I can assure you that when the Dutch team has released its final report, Stalin-Putin’s pieces of shit will be crying that the report has been falsified on demand of American masters in order to whitewashed ukro-Nazis. Do you remember the story about the Ukrainian Su-25, with Russian generals saying they have overwhelming proof; photos from a satellite; a secret source in a Ukrainian airfield; an evidence of Spanish air traffic controller Carlos? Where is all of that now? Now, when it is obvious that the plane was shot down by a Buk missile, they have another version that it is Ukrainian troops fired the rocket. Don’t have any doubts that there will be the same “truth-seekers” here who will be spreading this version with “irrefutable proof” in next autumn.

About the Russian troops it is no reason to say something whatsoever. I almost sure that Russian “patriots” don’t believe in all that shit they are writing about – that there are no military support, no deliveries of arms, and so on.
You know, there were no Russian troops in Crimea at the beginning; the so-called rebels were buying their weapons in a shop at that time (I think you have heard this version from Russia’s president).
Now there are no Russian troops in Donbass, but only coal-miners, Russian volunteers and so-called ‘otpuskniki’ (furloughers or so). Take a look how easily they have disowned their two servicemen. And at the same time they are boasting about the grandeur of Russia and are threatening to show ‘Kuzka’s mother’. Disgusting.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
> How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.
> 
> I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.
> 
> *It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*
> 
> *MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
> *PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
> *Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*
> 
> Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?
> 
> The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.
> 
> *Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?
> 
> Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does not matter.  Why do you persist with your foolishness?
> 
> My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation.  Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see?  He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case.  He is the POTUS!!!
> 
> Why are you grabbing at straws?
> 
> Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?
> 
> Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?
Click to expand...

You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.


----------



## Camp

ESay said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, the Canadian rock star braggart who lectures as an expert because several generations ago relatives of one of her parents came from Ukraine is arguing with actual Ukrainians about Ukraine history and posting photo's of dead and mangled children to reinforce her opinions. She has support from some other idiot that is insisting that Ukraine, with it's own language and culture is actually Russia. Doubtful either one of these experts has stepped a foot anywhere in Ukraine or converses with Ukrainians or Russians. It is probably just a coincidence that they echo Putin's talking points like parrots. These two suckers are obviously influenced by the Russian propaganda machine.
> 
> Americans should consider this. When a rally of southerners display the confederate flag, does that mean that everyone in the south are racist traitors? When enemies of America show photo's of dead children killed by collateral damage or being caught in the crossfire, does that make all Americans guilty of murder and war criminals? Does it even make all of our military guilty of these tragedies?
> 
> This is the kind of disinformation being pushed out of the Putin propaganda mill and echoed by the self proclaimed rock star used to be. Fact is that independent observers and journalist have reported atrocities and war crimes on both sides of this conflict. That is always how it is. For one side to accuse the other of the same crimes it is committing itself is an age old propagandist tool. It attracts the low bearing fruit. The easiest people to influence and mislead because it attracts through emotion. No evidence is needed to show where the photo's came from or who committed the damage. It doesn't make a difference because it is not meant to influence people who have been in war zones. It is meant to influence those who have not. Those who have been in war zones know the reality of war zones. They understand the horror of a simple fact. Everyone is responsible for these kinds of tragedies and incidents. Soldiers know this the best.
> 
> Only one thing needs to be known and understood about the conflict in Ukraine. Russian troops, disguised as separatist or as volunteers do not belong in Ukraine. Russian weapons like tanks,artillery and BUK missile systems do not belong in Ukraine. That is why the Russians deny and lie about them being there. The only way foreign troops belong in a nation is when the recognized and legitimate government invites them to be there.
> 
> Ukraine has an internationally recognized government that was elected in elections monitored by international groups tasked with insuring fair elections. This was done after the so called "coup". The current government in Ukraine has very few of the so called neo-Nazi groups involved in it. The neo Nazi's were overwhelmingly rejected by the Ukrainian voters. Those are the facts. No matter how many neo Nazi stories and horrible photo's these people post, Russia does not belong in Ukraine. The horrible incidents that create those kinds of horrible photo's will only end when Russia gets out of Ukraine and stops supporting the war with weapons. That is how wars always end and peace is achieved. Borders are respected and countries adhere to international law designed to maintain peace. Number one rule, don't send your tanks and troops across your neighbors border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your post. Though, I don’t think it will change much, unfortunately. I mean maybe it will be helpful for someone who accidentally came across this thread and who hasn’t been following closely the events in Ukraine and its history, but it won’t definitely change much in the creative work of our “truth-seekers”. There will be the same photos, articles, statements, pictures, and so on. Have you noticed that they are completely ignoring questions which are not suitable for them?
> 
> About the Boeing. I can assure you that when the Dutch team has released its final report, Stalin-Putin’s pieces of shit will be crying that the report has been falsified on demand of American masters in order to whitewashed ukro-Nazis. Do you remember the story about the Ukrainian Su-25, with Russian generals saying they have overwhelming proof; photos from a satellite; a secret source in a Ukrainian airfield; an evidence of Spanish air traffic controller Carlos? Where is all of that now? Now, when it is obvious that the plane was shot down by a Buk missile, they have another version that it is Ukrainian troops fired the rocket. Don’t have any doubts that there will be the same “truth-seekers” here who will be spreading this version with “irrefutable proof” in next autumn.
> 
> About the Russian troops it is no reason to say something whatsoever. I almost sure that Russian “patriots” don’t believe in all that shit they are writing about – that there are no military support, no deliveries of arms, and so on.
> You know, there were no Russian troops in Crimea at the beginning; the so-called rebels were buying their weapons in a shop at that time (I think you have heard this version from Russia’s president).
> Now there are no Russian troops in Donbass, but only coal-miners, Russian volunteers and so-called ‘otpuskniki’ (furloughers or so). Take a look how easily they have disowned their two servicemen. And at the same time they are boasting about the grandeur of Russia and are threatening to show ‘Kuzka’s mother’. Disgusting.
Click to expand...

Over a thousand viewers have come to see this thread in just a few days. Any application of truth to it is helpful in counteracting and neutralizing the disinformation propagated by the Moscow machine.


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
> How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.
> 
> I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.
> 
> *It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*
> 
> *MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
> *PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
> *Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*
> 
> Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?
> 
> The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.
> 
> *Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?
> 
> Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does not matter.  Why do you persist with your foolishness?
> 
> My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation.  Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see?  He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case.  He is the POTUS!!!
> 
> Why are you grabbing at straws?
> 
> Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?
> 
> Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.
Click to expand...

You apparently have no understanding of international diplomacy.  

For a seating POTUS to accuse another nation of an act of war, is big stuff.  He better back up his pronouncements with facts proving his accusation.  

I guess you don't hold Obama to any standards of conduct, so he can do and say what he wishes...in your mind.


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the Dutch can't find anyone to prosecute for the crime.  Why is that if this is such an open and shut case, as you claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think the US gov, which is monitoring all things worldwide, does not know who shot down the plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
> How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.
> 
> I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.
> 
> *It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*
> 
> *MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
> *PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
> *Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*
> 
> Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?
> 
> The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.
> 
> *Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?
> 
> Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does not matter.  Why do you persist with your foolishness?
> 
> My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation.  Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see?  He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case.  He is the POTUS!!!
> 
> Why are you grabbing at straws?
> 
> Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?
> 
> Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.
Click to expand...

Your thinking on this is akin to Obama saying the cop committed murder the day Michael Brown was shot and killed without ever providing any proof.

Do you see the complete and utter foolishness in your argument?


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecute a crime?  What a draft statement.  You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention.  This is an international issue.
> The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane.  YOU are rejecting it out of hand because…  well you have not said why.  Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
> How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.
> 
> I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.
> 
> *It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*
> 
> *MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
> *PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
> *Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*
> 
> Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?
> 
> The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.
> 
> *Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?
> 
> Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does not matter.  Why do you persist with your foolishness?
> 
> My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation.  Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see?  He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case.  He is the POTUS!!!
> 
> Why are you grabbing at straws?
> 
> Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?
> 
> Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You apparently have no understanding of international diplomacy.
> 
> For a seating POTUS to accuse another nation of an act of war, is big stuff.  He better back up his pronouncements with facts proving his accusation.
> 
> I guess you don't hold Obama to any standards of conduct, so he can do and say what he wishes...in your mind.
Click to expand...

He better back it up or what? He is deferring his judgement or responsibility for the shoot down on the Defense Department and NATO. He has every right to support the conclusions made by those authorities and express his opinion. You have yet to refute the evidence that has been made public and has been brought up in this thread numerous times. Many, including the President, believe the evidence already made public is enough to point the finger at the separatist. Big surprise, you take the side of the Russians and the separatist and continue to echo their propaganda while they hinder further investigation and refuse to allow the case to be handled by an international court under authority of the UN.


----------



## ESay

Some additional information about the investigation of the crash.

The Dutch Safety Board has reported on the progress of the investigation into the MH17 crash to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
There is not much information, but what is written there - _The draft final reports on the investigation into the crash and the investigation pertaining to flight routes were made available to the accredited representatives of the participating States on Tuesday, 2 June_.
The states participating in the investigation are Malaysia, Ukraine, the United States, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, Australia and the Netherlands.

So, if I understand correctly, the representatives of these states, and thereby the governments of these states, are already completely aware what will be in the final report.

Dutch Safety Board Investigations Publication Investigation crash MH17 17 July 2014


----------



## gipper

Camp said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.
> 
> I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads.  If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.
> 
> *It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:*
> 
> *MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash* - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
> *PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/*
> *Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S*
> 
> Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?
> 
> The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war.  We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.
> 
> *Now put your big boy pants on*...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?
> 
> Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof?  Intelligent people don't.
> 
> 
> 
> Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does not matter.  Why do you persist with your foolishness?
> 
> My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation.  Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see?  He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case.  He is the POTUS!!!
> 
> Why are you grabbing at straws?
> 
> Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?
> 
> Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You apparently have no understanding of international diplomacy.
> 
> For a seating POTUS to accuse another nation of an act of war, is big stuff.  He better back up his pronouncements with facts proving his accusation.
> 
> I guess you don't hold Obama to any standards of conduct, so he can do and say what he wishes...in your mind.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He better back it up or what? He is deferring his judgement or responsibility for the shoot down on the Defense Department and NATO. He has every right to support the conclusions made by those authorities and express his opinion. You have yet to refute the evidence that has been made public and has been brought up in this thread numerous times. Many, including the President, believe the evidence already made public is enough to point the finger at the separatist. Big surprise, you take the side of the Russians and the separatist and continue to echo their propaganda while they hinder further investigation and refuse to allow the case to be handled by an international court under authority of the UN.
Click to expand...

So in your mind it is perfectly okay for the POTUS to accuse Russian separatists of shooting down the plane ONE DAY AFTER THE EVENT OCCURRED.  

He then hit Russia with economic sanctions a little over a week after the shoot down.  
His ambassador to the UN issued a scathing attack on Russia and blamed Putin at a UN Security Council meeting just three days after the shoot down.  
Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, went even further, raising the possibility that the Russian military had actually fired the missile that took down the plane.  
BO even accused Putin of being a liar.  
Three days after the shoot down John Stupid Kerry accused the Russians.  
And on and on and on.........

Does that sound like a POTUS willing to defer judgement?  

Do you think it proper to make wild accusations prior to any investigation and do it against a nuclear armed nation?  

If dipshit Bush did this, the media would be calling him a crazed cowboy and they would be right....but its cool cause BO's in charge.


----------



## Camp

gipper said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.
> 
> 
> 
> Does not matter.  Why do you persist with your foolishness?
> 
> My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation.  Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see?  He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case.  He is the POTUS!!!
> 
> Why are you grabbing at straws?
> 
> Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?
> 
> Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You apparently have no understanding of international diplomacy.
> 
> For a seating POTUS to accuse another nation of an act of war, is big stuff.  He better back up his pronouncements with facts proving his accusation.
> 
> I guess you don't hold Obama to any standards of conduct, so he can do and say what he wishes...in your mind.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He better back it up or what? He is deferring his judgement or responsibility for the shoot down on the Defense Department and NATO. He has every right to support the conclusions made by those authorities and express his opinion. You have yet to refute the evidence that has been made public and has been brought up in this thread numerous times. Many, including the President, believe the evidence already made public is enough to point the finger at the separatist. Big surprise, you take the side of the Russians and the separatist and continue to echo their propaganda while they hinder further investigation and refuse to allow the case to be handled by an international court under authority of the UN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So in your mind it is perfectly okay for the POTUS to accuse Russian separatists of shooting down the plane ONE DAY AFTER THE EVENT OCCURRED.
> 
> He then hit Russia with economic sanctions a little over a week after the shoot down.
> His ambassador to the UN issued a scathing attack on Russia and blamed Putin at a UN Security Council meeting just three days after the shoot down.
> Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, went even further, raising the possibility that the Russian military had actually fired the missile that took down the plane.
> BO even accused Putin of being a liar.
> Three days after the shoot down John Stupid Kerry accused the Russians.
> And on and on and on.........
> 
> Does that sound like a POTUS willing to defer judgement?
> 
> Do you think it proper to make wild accusations prior to any investigation and do it against a nuclear armed nation?
> 
> If dipshit Bush did this, the media would be calling him a crazed cowboy and they would be right....but its cool cause BO's in charge.
Click to expand...

The most damning evidence, the cell phone intercepts and the social media posting were available immediately. Taking into account that Ukrainian military aircraft were being attacked and shot down with missiles in that same area, the President made a good call. If anything, I would have preferred he was more aggressive and harsher. When the Russian controlled separatist blocked international crews from entering and inspecting the crash seen or recovering evidence and even remains the proper attitude towards the Russians was to show disdain and disgust. Bodies were being left in the hot sun and looted and at night devoured by wild animals and dogs and you are complaining that the President was unfairly harsh with the people he knew caused the incident to start with. You guys seem to want to ignore those facts. Russia and the separatist left those bodies out in the weather and the mercy of animals and refused to let unarmed volunteers from neutral countries into the crash area. What do you suppose they were trying to hide?


----------



## JimH52

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
> 
> What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really *cares* about Ukraine? Look:
> 
> - Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
> - Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
> - Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
> - JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there *ARE* quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think.  I'd love to thank them a lot!!!



*"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"*

I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.


----------



## Camp

JimH52 said:


> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
> 
> What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really *cares* about Ukraine? Look:
> 
> - Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
> - Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
> - Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
> - JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there *ARE* quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think.  I'd love to thank them a lot!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"*
> 
> I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.
Click to expand...

No hate. Don't like old style Soviet totalitarianism. That is what is being brought to Ukraine. It is happening in Russia too, but Russian masses are convinced by propaganda that the world is out to get them and only Putin can save them. Those who question this and begin to get attention and support are arrested, killed or becomes missing.
In Donetsk the journalist can not move around without a "guide" escorting them. All reports must be censored by officials. Art galleries are taken over and controlled by authorities also. Some art is being destroyed as not proper art for people of Donetsk to see. Even the famous "Lipstick Tube" aka "Make-up" created from an old smokestack to commemorate women who helped restore Donetsk after the war was blown up by separatist. So journalist have guides like the totalitarian government in N. Korea and art is being destroyed like the totalitarians in ISIS areas of their control. Peace demonstrations are forbidden in Donetsk, as in N. Korea and the Caliphate.

What happens to those who question authority in occupied Ukraine areas?


----------



## PK1

Camp said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
> 
> What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really *cares* about Ukraine? Look:
> 
> - Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
> - Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
> - Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
> - JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there *ARE* quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think.  I'd love to thank them a lot!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"*
> 
> I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No hate. Don't like old style Soviet totalitarianism. That is what is being brought to Ukraine. It is happening in Russia too, but Russian masses are convinced by propaganda that the world is out to get them and only Putin can save them. Those who question this and begin to get attention and support are arrested, killed or becomes missing.
> In Donetsk the journalist can not move around without a "guide" escorting them. All reports must be censored by officials. Art galleries are taken over and controlled by authorities also. Some art is being destroyed as not proper art for people of Donetsk to see. Even the famous "Lipstick Tube" aka "Make-up" created from an old smokestack to commemorate women who helped restore Donetsk after the war was blown up by separatist. So journalist have guides like the totalitarian government in N. Korea and art is being destroyed like the totalitarians in ISIS areas of their control. Peace demonstrations are forbidden in Donetsk, as in N. Korea and the Caliphate.
> 
> What happens to those who question authority in occupied Ukraine areas?
Click to expand...


---
"_*What happens to those who question authority in occupied Ukraine areas?*_"

They become "missing".
*Ethnic cleansing*, if a Uki speaks out in protest.
Before the Russian takeover of the Donbas cities, there were more Ukrainians living in those eastern Oblasts than ethnic Russians.
The Russians are actively changing that mix with fascist methods supported by papa Putin.


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="JimH52, post: 11735142, member: 6882"] QUOTE
	
="Stratford57, post: 11729927, member: 49659"] QUOTE
	
="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE
	
]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really *cares* about Ukraine? Look:
- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there *ARE* quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think.  I'd love to thank them a lot!!![ QUOTE
	
]
*"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"*
I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.[ QUOTE
	
]


Only the one who is not familiar with the history of Russia could say that.

1.  Eastern part of Ukraine (half of the country) as well as Belarus were parts of Russia for centuries, many centuries before the world even heard about the USA existence. Russia was called “Kiev Russia” and Kiev was called ”the mother of Russian  cities”. In 988 Prince Vladimir has started baptizing the people of Russia in the river Dnepr, city of Kiev. This mass baptism became the iconic inaugural event in the Christianization of the state of Kievan Rus'.
Christianization of Kievan Rus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia’
So, for Russia Ukraine basically is _the same people_, for half of a country Russian is still the first language (in spite of a forced total ukrainization of Russian speaking population, which started as soon as Ukraine became “independent”) . When Junta came to the power after the coup and started genocide of its population (killing or throwing into prison the ones who disagree with it, pulling the people into the war and misery), we can understand Russia/Putin’s concerns about it. What we don’t understand: what’s the USA business
	
 there. USA have had nothing to do with Ukraine in the past, while the blood obviously is thicker than water.

2.  In 1919 after the October revolution Lenin “gave“ a part of Russia (which is now Eastern Ukraine) to Ukrainian republic ( to raise the percentage of proletariat in Ukrainian republic), however it was _within_ the same country of the USSR. Later in 1954 Khrushchev “gave” Crimean peninsula to Ukrainian republic.
(The history of Western Ukraine is a little different).

3.  In 1992 three crooks (Yeltsyn, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch) with Washington’s blessing have separated Ukraine and Belarus’ from Russia and declared them separate countries. So, they have been called separate countries for 24 years (can 24 years be compared to centuries?). The people living in Eastern Ukraine (including myself) felt like treir Motherland has been stolen from them and found themselves living in a foreign and not friendly country of Ukraine. However Western Ukrainians were happy. (And since then what makes Western Ukrainians happy is bad for Eastern Ukrainians and vise verse).

About 70 or 80% of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to stay in a Custom Union with Russia, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan. And Western Ukrainians want to join the EU and tear Ukraine away from Russia for good. And that’s why Kiev has pulled its troops to Donbass and that’s what I meant in the post you quoted.

P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times (and I agree
	
, my English is not perfect). However I wonder if yourself can write in _any_ foreign language at least at my level?


----------



## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="JimH52, post: 11735142, member: 6882"] QUOTE
> 
> ="Stratford57, post: 11729927, member: 49659"] QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
> What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really *cares* about Ukraine? Look:
> - Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
> - Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
> - Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
> - JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there *ARE* quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think.  I'd love to thank them a lot!!![ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> *"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"*
> I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> 
> Only the one who is not familiar with the history of Russia could say that.
> 
> 1.  Eastern part of Ukraine (half of the country) as well as Belarus were parts of Russia for centuries, many centuries before the world even heard about the USA existence. Russia was called “Kiev Russia” and Kiev was called ”the mother of Russian  cities”. In 988 Prince Vladimir has started baptizing the people of Russia in the river Dnepr, city of Kiev. This mass baptism became the iconic inaugural event in the Christianization of the state of Kievan Rus'.
> Christianization of Kievan Rus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia’
> So, for Russia Ukraine basically is _the same people_, for half of a country Russian is still the first language (in spite of a forced total ukrainization of Russian speaking population, which started as soon as Ukraine became “independent”) . When Junta came to the power after the coup and started genocide of its population (killing or throwing into prison the ones who disagree with it, pulling the people into the war and misery), we can understand Russia/Putin’s concerns about it. What we don’t understand: what’s the USA business
> 
> there. USA have had nothing to do with Ukraine in the past, while the blood obviously is thicker than water.
> 
> 2.  In 1919 after the October revolution Lenin “gave“ a part of Russia (which is now Eastern Ukraine) to Ukrainian republic ( to raise the percentage of proletariat in Ukrainian republic), however it was _within_ the same country of the USSR. Later in 1954 Khrushchev “gave” Crimean peninsula to Ukrainian republic.
> (The history of Western Ukraine is a little different).
> 
> 3.  In 1992 three crooks (Yeltsyn, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch) with Washington’s blessing have separated Ukraine and Belarus’ from Russia and declared them separate countries. So, they have been called separate countries for 24 years (can 24 years be compared to centuries?). The people living in Eastern Ukraine (including myself) felt like treir Motherland has been stolen from them and found themselves living in a foreign and not friendly country of Ukraine. However Western Ukrainians were happy. (And since then what makes Western Ukrainians happy is bad for Eastern Ukrainians and vise verse).
> 
> About 70 or 80% of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to stay in a Custom Union with Russia, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan. And Western Ukrainians want to join the EU and tear Ukraine away from Russia for good. And that’s why Kiev has pulled its troops to Donbass and that’s what I meant in the post you quoted.
> 
> P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times (and I agree
> 
> , my English is not perfect). However I wonder if yourself can write in _any_ foreign language at least at my level?



---
Gee "Stratford", it looks like you're doing a good job earning your *Putin propaganda *pay ... which is effective on readers ignorant of actual historical & current events in Ukraine.
Let me provide corrective info here ...

The Ukrainian people and their *Ukrainian language* have been culturally independent from most "Russians" since the 1600's, although the Tsarist & Communist RUSSIANS have tried to eliminate their independence since the 1800's thru forced "Russification" programs ... until Ukraine finally became an INDEPENDENT nation in 1991, thanks to Yeltsyn, who hated the Soviet totalitarian regime.

Yes, in eastern Ukraine, where *Russification* has been the most effective since the Stalin era, there are many ethnic Russians (about 40% in only the 2 war-torn Donbass oblasts & mostly in cities) among the majority Ukrainian populations, and most Uki's there speak Russian too.
However, the Ukrainians in the east do NOT want to join Russia, as one of our many Putin trolls lies.
In fact, the *Ukrainians want Russia to stop their aggression toward them*, 
i.e., Russia, get out of Ukraine!

New poll shows eastern Ukraine s separatists are wrong - The Washington Post

According to last year's "_poll by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, a vast majority of those living in Ukraine -- both in the restive east and more nationalist west -- want the country's borders to remain the same, despite the many political and social tensions that have come to the surface in recent months.  
*Only 18 percent of those surveyed in eastern Ukraine think the country's regions should be allowed to secede* -- a statistic that serves as something of a rebuke to Pushilin and his fellow separatists_."


----------



## Tehon

*Owned.*






Colonel Cassad -


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ="JimH52, post: 11735142, member: 6882"] QUOTE
> 
> ="Stratford57, post: 11729927, member: 49659"] QUOTE
> 
> ="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
> What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really *cares* about Ukraine? Look:
> - Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
> - Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
> - Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
> - JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there *ARE* quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think.  I'd love to thank them a lot!!![ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> *"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"*
> I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> 
> Only the one who is not familiar with the history of Russia could say that.
> 
> 1.  Eastern part of Ukraine (half of the country) as well as Belarus were parts of Russia for centuries, many centuries before the world even heard about the USA existence. Russia was called “Kiev Russia” and Kiev was called ”the mother of Russian  cities”. In 988 Prince Vladimir has started baptizing the people of Russia in the river Dnepr, city of Kiev. This mass baptism became the iconic inaugural event in the Christianization of the state of Kievan Rus'.
> Christianization of Kievan Rus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia’
> So, for Russia Ukraine basically is _the same people_, for half of a country Russian is still the first language (in spite of a forced total ukrainization of Russian speaking population, which started as soon as Ukraine became “independent”) . When Junta came to the power after the coup and started genocide of its population (killing or throwing into prison the ones who disagree with it, pulling the people into the war and misery), we can understand Russia/Putin’s concerns about it. What we don’t understand: what’s the USA business
> 
> there. USA have had nothing to do with Ukraine in the past, while the blood obviously is thicker than water.
> 
> 2.  In 1919 after the October revolution Lenin “gave“ a part of Russia (which is now Eastern Ukraine) to Ukrainian republic ( to raise the percentage of proletariat in Ukrainian republic), however it was _within_ the same country of the USSR. Later in 1954 Khrushchev “gave” Crimean peninsula to Ukrainian republic.
> (The history of Western Ukraine is a little different).
> 
> 3.  In 1992 three crooks (Yeltsyn, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch) with Washington’s blessing have separated Ukraine and Belarus’ from Russia and declared them separate countries. So, they have been called separate countries for 24 years (can 24 years be compared to centuries?). The people living in Eastern Ukraine (including myself) felt like treir Motherland has been stolen from them and found themselves living in a foreign and not friendly country of Ukraine. However Western Ukrainians were happy. (And since then what makes Western Ukrainians happy is bad for Eastern Ukrainians and vise verse).
> 
> About 70 or 80% of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to stay in a Custom Union with Russia, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan. And Western Ukrainians want to join the EU and tear Ukraine away from Russia for good. And that’s why Kiev has pulled its troops to Donbass and that’s what I meant in the post you quoted.
> 
> P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times (and I agree
> 
> , my English is not perfect). However I wonder if yourself can write in _any_ foreign language at least at my level?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Gee "Stratford", it looks like you're doing a good job earning your *Putin propaganda *pay ... which is effective on readers ignorant of actual historical & current events in Ukraine.
> Let me provide corrective info here ...
> 
> The Ukrainian people and their *Ukrainian language* have been culturally independent from most "Russians" since the 1600's, although the Tsarist & Communist RUSSIANS have tried to eliminate their independence since the 1800's thru forced "Russification" programs ... until Ukraine finally became an INDEPENDENT nation in 1991, thanks to Yeltsyn, who hated the Soviet totalitarian regime.
> 
> Yes, in eastern Ukraine, where *Russification* has been the most effective since the Stalin era, there are many ethnic Russians (about 40% in only the 2 war-torn Donbass oblasts & mostly in cities) among the majority Ukrainian populations, and most Uki's there speak Russian too.
> However, the Ukrainians in the east do NOT want to join Russia, as one of our many Putin trolls lies.
> In fact, the *Ukrainians want Russia to stop their aggression toward them*,
> i.e., Russia, get out of Ukraine!
> 
> New poll shows eastern Ukraine s separatists are wrong - The Washington Post
> 
> According to last year's "_poll by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, a vast majority of those living in Ukraine -- both in the restive east and more nationalist west -- want the country's borders to remain the same, despite the many political and social tensions that have come to the surface in recent months.
> *Only 18 percent of those surveyed in eastern Ukraine think the country's regions should be allowed to secede* -- a statistic that serves as something of a rebuke to Pushilin and his fellow separatists_."
Click to expand...


PK, you're a secret Russian troll, stop your propaganda against Ukraine!


----------



## Sbiker

Stratford57 said:


> P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times



Relax! We are private people, didnt' had army language courses...


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE="PK1, post: 11721636, member: 54974"]
---
Ukraine genocide?
You conveniently forgot the Holodomor in the '30's when Stalin had millions of Ukrainians starve to death.[/QUOTE]

“Holodomor” is a term, invented to rewrite the history: official Kiev wants Ukrainians and the Western world to believe that the famine in 30-s was Stalin’s intentional  internal policy for the purpose of genocide of Ukrainians. However it contradicts the real history: the famine was *all over the country* of the USSR and occurred at least in 3 Soviet republics: Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan.


The *Soviet famine of 1932–33* affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, leading to the deaths of millions in those areas and severe food insecurity throughout the USSR. These areas included Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region and Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia. The subset of the famine within the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic is called _Holodomor_ or "hungry mass-death."

Soviet famine of 1932 33 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


In the current century the only thing official Kiev has been good at is *rewriting history*. The purpose of all those lies about common history of Russia and Ukraine is ethnic strife and making Ukrainians hate their brothers Russians. “Divide and rule!” or “Fish in troubled waters!”.

Since Ukrainians have to hate Russians (according to official Kiev) for the Stalin’s stupid internal policy damage in 30-s, they have to hate Germans even more for the damage they [Germans] have done to Ukraine, Belarus and Russia in 40-s during WW2. But that just doesn’t make sense!

Last century the foreign historians were mocking the USSR, saying “In the USSR even the past is unpredictable.” Lately Ukraine has even surpassed the USSR: the past has become totally unpredictable in Ukraine since the coup.

A few months ago Ukrainian prime minister Yatsenuk has made some surprising statements during his visit to Germany: “Russia invaded Ukraine and Germany during WW2” [Ukraine was *part* of the USSR as well as Russia; and the USSR, the USA, France, Britain were fighting *together against Germany* during WW2 if case somebody has forgotten. However Western Ukrainians were fighting on Hitler’s side under the leadership of Stephan Bandera. Last year official Kiev has announced Stephan Bandera to become a national hero of Ukraine.]






Yatsenuk ^, the world champion in rewriting history.


----------



## PK1

---
Re: your recent anti-Ukraine post on Soviet famine in early 1930's ...

Yes, there were millions of Soviet deaths outside Ukraine during Stalin's regime, but Ukraine had it worse by far and it's even considered *genocide* by 25 countries.

In your own Wikipedia reference on the "Soviet Famine", the loss of life estimated by Robert Conquest is "*5 million in Ukraine*, 1 million in the North Caucasus, and 1 million elsewhere".
More detail can be explored here:
Holodomor - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Regarding your propaganda's tiresome references to Bandera, as explained before, he was not a Nazi but a Ukrainian nationalist who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny.
Hitler imprisoned Bandera for not being a Nazi 1941-1944. 

Instead of focusing on a twisted view of History, why don't you stick with current events and try disputing this thread's opening post on *Putin's propaganda machine *operating out of St Petersburg and elsewhere (RT, etc).


----------



## indiajo

tinydancer said:


> Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?



Not anymore. They just start fighting him.
Soon you will have the opportunity to welcome him in the US, granting him exile.


----------



## Camp

*Something for a one year anniversary 

de.storyclash.com/Field-of-death-Unraveling-the-mystery-of-MH17-4424195*


----------



## Sonc

PK1 said:


> Regarding your propaganda's tiresome references to Bandera, as explained before, *he was not a Nazi but a Ukrainian nationalist*


*You're so clever.*


> *Methods[edit]*
> The atrocities were carried out indiscriminately and without restraint. The victims, regardless of their age or gender, were routinely tortured to death. Norman Davies in_No Simple Victory_ gives a short, but shocking description of the massacres. He writes:
> Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away. The perpetrators could not determine the province's future. But at least they could determine that it would be a future without Poles.[91]
> An OUN order from early 1944 stated:
> Liquidate all Polish traces. Destroy all walls in the Catholic Church and other Polish prayer houses. Destroy orchards and trees in the courtyards so that there will be no trace that someone lived there... Pay attention to the fact that when something remains that is Polish, then the Poles will have pretensions to our land".[9]
> ...
> ...
> In many cases, victims were tortured and their bodies mutilated.



_* "Ukrainian nationalist who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny."*_
Here Stalin's soldiers.
For some reason all of them are Poles...


----------



## Camp

What are people thinking when they post these horrible photo's? There is no way to prove where they came from or what nation or group is responsible for them.  Maybe they are photo's of indiscriminate bombing and artillery fire from Soviet forces. Maybe they are innocent Ukrainians murdered by Soviets. It's all just propaganda. What nation does not have bad soldiers seeking revenge that does not commit these kinds of war crimes?

The purpose of the post is better served by posting this link about the Volhynia Massacre from which these photo's are alleged to have come from or depict. 

www.volhyniamassacre.eu


----------



## Igrok_

ESay said:


> almost certainly there will soon be a monument of Dzerzhinsky in front of a famous building on Lubianka. Apparently, the monument will be a reminder for Russian contemporary ‘chekists’ how they should work.


It is a lie like almost all that ukrainians know and say about Russia.


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> It's all just propaganda.


No. It's a fact - Ukrainian nationalists are guilty of Volyn massacre.
Propaganda here
"who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny."
Those who are gutting pregnant women ... referred to as "heroes" who fought against Russian tyranny.


----------



## Sonc

*What nation does not have bad soldiers seeking revenge that does not commit these kinds of war crimes?*

I think this idea is very popular in the United States.

The genocide of the Indians.
"My Lai" in Vietnam.
2 nuclear bombs
Iraq
Afghanistan
Libya

Each new president begins a new war.
This fucking Communists blame always and everywhere...
_*









*_


----------



## Camp

Pretty funny that the USA is being lectured about war crimes and atrocities by a Russian living in a foreign country called Ukraine where civilians are routinely being maimed and killed with Russian ordnance and weapons. Russia was founded with the execution and murder of children, the Czars children to be exact. That whole country is based on murder and imprisoning citizens. Stalin left a reign of terror everywhere he sent his troops.


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> Pretty funny


Yap. Very funny.

_Judging what proportion of this mammoth toll constituted democide by the invading armies and colonists is hardly better than picking a number out of the air. No doubt there was much indiscriminate and outright murder. No doubt conditions were forcibly imposed on whole tribes that led to their rapid near extinction. No doubt large numbers of Indians died from inhuman treatment, especially under forced labor. And no doubt in some cases disease may have been knowingly spread.83 But even Professor David Stannard, author of the American Holocaust,84 who clearly blames Europeans for many of these deaths, is unwilling to give even a rough approximation of the "genocide."85 I found one overall estimate of 15,000,000 Indians killed in what appears to be democide, but this figure is given without citation or elaboration.86 In any case, judging by the bloody history of this period of colonization throughout the Americas, a democide of 2,000,000 would seem a rough minimum and 15,000,000 dead a maximum. Even if these figures are remotely true, then this still make this subjugation of the Americas one of the bloodier, centuries long, democides in world history._
_
_


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Pretty funny that the USA is being lectured about war crimes and atrocities by a Russian living in a foreign country called Ukraine where civilians are routinely being maimed and killed with Russian ordnance and weapons. Russia was founded with the execution and murder of children, the Czars children to be exact. That whole country is based on murder and imprisoning citizens. Stalin left a reign of terror everywhere he sent his troops.



But you're just another living proof of Stalin's humanism!


----------



## ESay

Igrok_ said:


> It is a lie like almost all that ukrainians know and say about Russia.



It is amazing to hear from Russian “patriot” about lie.
What exactly is lie? The Moscow Council’s approval to organise a referendum about the monument is lie?
Or lie is that half of Muscovites (I previously wrote ‘the majority’ but then wrote ‘half’ because you would say that 51% isn’t the majority) support the establishing of the monument? Here is the most recent link about it
 click (in Russian) 

The most amazing fact is that the support of ‘iron Felix’ among young people stands at the rate of 63 per cent.
Storytellers.


----------



## Sonc

kommersant.ru ? =)))
Lal. News for morons =))

_*Or lie is that half of Muscovites*
Here is the website of the Communist Party.
 . . _

_В итоге коммунисты собрали 152000 подписей, 
As a result, the Communists have gathered *152,000* signatures,_

_Восстановление памятника Ф.Э.Дзержинскому на Лубянке поддержал 61%.
Restoration of the monument to Dzerzhinsky on Lubyanka supported 61%.

*61% from 152,000 = 93 000 = 0,7% Moscow's population


*_

*

*
_*



*_


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> kommersant.ru ? =)))
> Lal. News for morons =))



Oh, I am sorry. I forgot that I am talking with Russian “patriots”, so it would be better to give links to Channel One, RT or Sputnik. But I don’t swim in these shitholes.



Sonc said:


> _*Or lie is that half of Muscovites*
> Here is the website of the Communist Party.
> . . _
> 
> _В итоге коммунисты собрали 152000 подписей,
> As a result, the Communists have gathered *152,000* signatures,_
> 
> _Восстановление памятника Ф.Э.Дзержинскому на Лубянке поддержал 61%.
> Restoration of the monument to Dzerzhinsky on Lubyanka supported 61%.
> 
> *61% from 152,000 = 93 000 = 0,7% Moscow's population*_



I have recently got to know that Russian “patriots” suck in geography and elementary arithmetic. But it is amazing to know that they also suck in the Russian language. So, let’s me explain you what the figures provided by you mean, because you seem to have failed to understand that.

Firstly. In order to organise a referendum there must be no less than 145000 people who support the referendum and who agree to put their signatures into a questionnaire. It doesn’t mean that only 145000 people support the idea, but it is the minimum needed for the referendum being organised.

Secondly. The 61% has nothing to do with the 150000 people. Accordingtothearticle, ЦентрисследованияполитическойкультурыРоссииhas carried out an opinion poll according to which 61% of people support the establishment of the monument.


----------



## Sonc

> So, let’s me explain


....
At the Russian regional elections in 2012the party got 2 to 3.5 percent of the vote and 2 seats.
...
152 000 -  they collected these signatures 1 month =))) It is a maximum for communists. ("Нам в МГИКе говорили, мол, подписи вы не соберёте, – рассказал Рашкин. – Да у меня и у самого, честно говоря, были сомнения")

Explain. How 3% turned into 61%
I listen...


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> 152 000 - they collected these signatures 1 month =))) It is a maximum for communists. ("Нам в МГИКе говорили, мол, подписи вы не соберёте, – рассказал Рашкин. – Да у меня и у самого, честно говоря, были сомнения")



Man, it is boring. If you still don’t understand what the figure 152000 mean, ask your counterparts to explain you.



Sonc said:


> Explain. How 3% turned into 61%
> I listen...



Because it is ridiculous to think that only those who supported the communist on the last elections support the idea of the monument. And I am completely aware that you understand that. So, try to find somebody else to play with figures.


----------



## Sonc

Well, you stupid. 
60% of Muscovites want to put a monument.
But for 1 month only 150,000 have signed.

You really dont understand that this is impossible?


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> But for 1 month only 150,000 have signed.
> 
> You really dont understand that this is impossible?



Go to school, learn the Russian language, and read again what is written on the article provided by you.



Sonc said:


> 60% of Muscovites want to put a monument.



So, 60% of Muscovites want to put the monument of Dzerzhinsky. It is a man who ordered to kill thousands and thousands of people in the early years of bolsheviks’ Russia. And at the same time you Russian Putin’s whores are crying about Bandera and ‘banderovtsi’. I completely agree that Bandera was a scum, but look at yourself in the first turn and on your idols, fucked morons.




Sonc said:


> Well, you stupid.



Oh, you Russian trolls are so boring and predictable. Now I have only one answer to you – Fuck off.


----------



## Sonc

I'm just telling you that information on 60% .. suspicious.

And yes, I think you're stupid, elsi you can not understand that in the past month gathering signatures *OFFICIALLY 2-3%* .... they can not have the support of 60% of the population.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Secondly. The 61% has nothing to do with the 150000 people. Accordingtothearticle, ЦентрисследованияполитическойкультурыРоссииhas carried out an opinion poll according to which 61% of people support the establishment of the monument.



Friend, check your text carefully after the approving with your curator - you losing spaces.... 



ESay said:


> It is a man who ordered to kill thousands and thousands of people in the early years of bolsheviks’ Russia.



and just saved a billions of homeless child, which were left without parents by "thousands and rhousands people", with elbows in blood, like your "Right Sector" comrades...


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Now I have only one answer to you – Fuck off



You can produce thousands of "Fuck off", all Europa knows the real significance of them, just as at this Polish monument:


----------



## Sonc

_Oh, you Russian trolls_
I'm a troll? Comrade ... someone else затролил тебя. Before me. because you sit on the forum and write only (!) bad things about Russia. 50% of lies. 
Why? =))) because you're offended.
And now crying)) As a young girl=))


----------



## Sbiker

Sonc said:


> _Oh, you Russian trolls_
> I'm a troll? Comrade ... someone else затролил тебя. Before me. because you sit on the forum and write only (!) bad things about Russia. 50% of lies.
> Why? =))) because you're offended.
> And now crying)) As a young girl=))



Sonc, are you software developer? You're a strong optimist, speaking about 50% lies from ESay...


----------



## ESay

Wow, there are now two trolls talking with me. It is such an honour.



Sonc said:


> And now crying)) As a young girl=))



Yeah, my mom just whipped my nose, so I am fine now. I am with you, guys.




Sonc said:


> And yes, I think you're stupid, elsi you can not understand that in the past month gathering signatures *OFFICIALLY 2-3%* .... they can not have the support of 60% of the population.



Okay, stupid asshole. I have taken the trouble and looked for some information, special for you.
According to Russian law, in order to hold a local referendum, there need to be signatures in its support. The amount of signatures mustn’t be higher than 5% of the total amount of those who can take part in the referendum.
5% is 145000 of such people in Moscow. So, the initiative group gathered 5% required and some amount above it apparently in case some of the signatures may be recognised invalid.
The gathering of signatures lasted for month? I don’t know it is long or not. Do you have any experience in this action?

 37. - 



Sbiker said:


> Friend, check your text carefully after the approving with your curator - you losing spaces....



Friend, do you already have some lessons of geography and elementary arithmetic? You are ready to talk about the super-duper hover Loon?





Sonc said:


> 'm a troll? Comrade ... someone else затролил тебя. Before me. because you sit on the forum and write only (!) bad things about Russia. 50% of lies.
> Why? =))) because you're offended.



Of course I am offended! Only 50%?? It is unfair!

I propose you a very interesting game. Let’s look for lie in our posts. I will look your posts and the posts of your comrades-trolls, and you will look in my posts. We can open a new thread and will be post the citations there. Okay?


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> According to Russian law



Interesting Russian law?  Planning to become a part of Russia?  Don't believe in Poroshenko's forces and NATO supply? )))



ESay said:


> You are ready to talk about the super-duper hover Loon?



And where's aviacarrier Varjag, which was Ukrainian after USSR falling (and why) ?  No problem, let's to continue 



ESay said:


> I propose you a very interesting game.



You have time to playing games on forum, not only to speak? Sure, you're really professional ukrainian troll with fixed hour rate! Instead of us "troll from secret school", which all have normal job and visit forum only for talking... So, I understand your emotions, when you, professional, lose me, just enthusiast, regularly


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Wow, there are now two trolls talking with me. It is such an honour.
> 
> 
> 
> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now crying)) As a young girl=))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, my mom just whipped my nose, so I am fine now. I am with you, guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I think you're stupid, elsi you can not understand that in the past month gathering signatures *OFFICIALLY 2-3%* .... they can not have the support of 60% of the population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, stupid asshole. I have taken the trouble and looked for some information, special for you.
> According to Russian law, in order to hold a local referendum, there need to be signatures in its support. The amount of signatures mustn’t be higher than 5% of the total amount of those who can take part in the referendum.
> 5% is 145000 of such people in Moscow. So, the initiative group gathered 5% required and some amount above it apparently in case some of the signatures may be recognised invalid.
> The gathering of signatures lasted for month? I don’t know it is long or not. Do you have any experience in this action?
> 
> 37. -
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Friend, check your text carefully after the approving with your curator - you losing spaces....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Friend, do you already have some lessons of geography and elementary arithmetic? You are ready to talk about the super-duper hover Loon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'm a troll? Comrade ... someone else затролил тебя. Before me. because you sit on the forum and write only (!) bad things about Russia. 50% of lies.
> Why? =))) because you're offended.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course I am offended! Only 50%?? It is unfair!
> 
> I propose you a very interesting game. Let’s look for lie in our posts. I will look your posts and the posts of your comrades-trolls, and you will look in my posts. We can open a new thread and will be post the citations there. Okay?
Click to expand...

Question 1.How many questions *were* planning to discuss at referendum?




> and some amount above it apparently in case some of the signatures may be recognised invalid.


After this, the Communist Party was given 30 days to collect the signatures of 2% of the number of voters in Moscow (146 thousand). To hand over the documents necessary until 26 July.

More on NTV.Ru:  150 .Ru


----------



## Sonc

> Yeah, my mom just whipped my nose, so I am fine now. I am with you, guys.



Well Done. Do not forget. You're the daughter of an officer! =))


----------



## PK1

Sonc said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all just propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> No. It's a fact - Ukrainian nationalists are guilty of Volyn massacre.
> Propaganda here
> "who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny."
> Those who are gutting pregnant women ... referred to as "heroes" who fought against Russian tyranny.
Click to expand...


---
So, you're another Putin ass- kissing troller that joined this thread. Welcome to the FREE world!
Too bad those who voice opposition to Putin get killed in Russia, or poisoned elsewhere :-(

I bet you cannot say anything negative about popa Putin!! I can criticize Obama, Trump, or any American politician/businessman all I want with liberty. I am not afraid to do so.
Too bad smart-minded Russians don't have that luxury.

YES, the Lebed-led Ukrainian nationalists are responsible for the tragic murders of innocent Polish people in the early 1940's. Those radical UPA followers were *inhuman asshole*s, killing approx 80,000 Poles.
What does that make Stalin, who was responsible for approx 5,000,000 deaths of Ukrainian people in the 1930's?
 That does not excuse the OUN factions from their murders, but they may have been frustrated in their violent battles with Stalin, Nazis, and Poles who took away their Uki land & culture.

I don't support ethnic cleansing of any kind, and what Putin is responsible for in eastern Ukraine is *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*, who lived peacefully with their Russian neighbors in Donbass until the Russian nationalists invaded.

I personally think that all "nationalists" are stupid *assholes*, whether they are Ukrainian, Russian, or American.
I'm sorry to inform you that *Putin* is one of them.


----------



## Sonc

> Welcome to the FREE world!


I don't want to shock you.
But Russia more free country than America.

*You know Russian?*

Yes, you can criticize. a problem that it EVERYTHING that you can. 

Your special services listen to your phones and read letters.
Your soldiers are sent as rams there where will want when want.

And you can't return them.
They will be killed for oil.
And you will criticize... at a forum. And to shout - you look, I am American. I can write - Bush you are a goat! And me for it will be nothing.

But if you try to go outside and els you black, the police officer can kill you as a dog.

Give. Leave. Also try to change something. Tomorrow at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. 
I will look on news as you will lie in snivels and urine... poured by pepper gas... and the stun gun will stick out of your ass)


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all just propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> No. It's a fact - Ukrainian nationalists are guilty of Volyn massacre.
> Propaganda here
> "who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny."
> Those who are gutting pregnant women ... referred to as "heroes" who fought against Russian tyranny.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> So, you're another Putin ass- kissing troller that joined this thread. Welcome to the FREE world!
> Too bad those who voice opposition to Putin get killed in Russia, or poisoned elsewhere :-(
> 
> I bet you cannot say anything negative about popa Putin!! I can criticize Obama, Trump, or any American politician/businessman all I want with liberty. I am not afraid to do so.
> Too bad smart-minded Russians don't have that luxury.
> 
> YES, the Lebed-led Ukrainian nationalists are responsible for the tragic murders of innocent Polish people in the early 1940's. Those radical UPA followers were *inhuman asshole*s, killing approx 80,000 Poles.
> What does that make Stalin, who was responsible for approx 5,000,000 deaths of Ukrainian people in the 1930's?
> That does not excuse the OUN factions from their murders, but they may have been frustrated in their violent battles with Stalin, Nazis, and Poles who took away their Uki land & culture.
> 
> I don't support ethnic cleansing of any kind, and what Putin is responsible for in eastern Ukraine is *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*, who lived peacefully with their Russian neighbors in Donbass until the Russian nationalists invaded.
> 
> I personally think that all "nationalists" are stupid *assholes*, whether they are Ukrainian, Russian, or American.
> I'm sorry to inform you that *Putin* is one of them.
Click to expand...


If you are a part of FREE world, why do you abuse people, who like Putin? Do you understand, in FREE world ALL can have own opinion? Wake up, you're really not in your eternally unslaved West Ukraine... 

So, I like Putin too, why I don't? He makes social programs, like gift of about 8000$ to every family, who have second child. He forbid harmful propagand for child. He really periodically shakes local officials for good work. Also, we have really free life in Russia now. I think, it's good for me, and Putin - my lovely president, it's my private opinion, like opinion of above 80% here.



> What does that make Stalin, who was responsible for approx 5,000,000 deaths of Ukrainian people in the 1930's?



First - be responsible of yourself... The crimes of whole world are not a reason to ignore of yours 
Second - you really mean, Stalin is a hand of God?  Because tragedy of 1932-1933 years was really Heaven's purpose. Don't lie about "special Ukrainian tragedy", it was a tragedy of all South Russia, including Black Earth and Volga regions. But all, who allowed goverment to take grain - remained alive. Instead of "thrifty" Ukrainians, which took grain, poisoned by ergot, to earth holes. And then ate it, poisoned and have much facts of mindless behavior, like cannibalism, until their death.
What is the role of Stalin? Stalin just saved all 'not so thrifty' by centralized food supply. Do you know, at this season he bought grain in Iran, for the gold? 



> *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*



I ask you again - how can you differ Ukrainians from Russian? Not all Russian speak Ukrainians, but ALL Ukrainians speak Russian. I would believe in ethnic cleansing, just if you explain me, HOW to separate Ukrainians ethnically, or, at least, by language? )))


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> nteresting Russian law?  Planning to become a part of Russia?  Don't believe in Poroshenko's forces and NATO supply? )))



Actually, I don’t give a shit about Russian law. But it is sad that Russian “patriots” know nothing about it, and therefore an “Ukro-nazi patriot” has to explain some provisions of the law. Don’t tell that to your friends, because they won’t believe in it and will beat you. But if you eventually don’t take my advice and tell them and they will begin to beat you, ask them to beat your head because it is the most wooden part of your body.



Sbiker said:


> Planning to become a part of Russia?



Only in a nightmare.




Sbiker said:


> And where's aviacarrier Varjag, which was Ukrainian after USSR falling (and why) ?  No problem, let's to continue



Leave alone Variag for a while. What can you add about the hover?




Sbiker said:


> You have time to playing games on forum, not only to speak? Sure, you're really professional ukrainian troll with fixed hour rate! Instead of us "troll from secret school", which all have normal job and visit forum only for talking...



Yeah, I understand that it is difficult for you being a woodhead to make logical conclusions. Ask somebody to calculate an average amount of posts per day which you have and which I do. And then ask them to explain why you screwed up again.




Sbiker said:


> So, I understand your emotions, when you, professional, lose me, just enthusiast, regularly



There is one problem about it, namely such things exist only in your sick dreams.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Question 1.How many questions *were* planning to discuss at referendum?



Three.



Sonc said:


> After this, the Communist Party was given 30 days to collect the signatures of 2% of the number of voters in Moscow (146 thousand). To hand over the documents necessary until 26 July.



Damn it. Are you crazy? There are already two links here which say that 146000 are 5%. Do you understand that? Five percent. Repeat after me, letter by letter – five percent, five percent, five percent. Is that enough?

If I understand correctly what is said in your article, the communists won’t give documents to the election committee now. They have an intention to demand that all three questions be included in the referendum.



Sonc said:


> Well Done. Do not forget. You're the daughter of an officer! =))



Okay, my little sister, I will remember that.


----------



## Sonc

> Three.


*Why you didnt write that question was 3?*
And 2% voted in favor of a referendum on three issues. And not just on the monument?



> Damn it. Are you crazy? There are already two links here which say that 146000 are 5%. Do you understand that?


*This question number two.*
 br 1 2015 - 
*
In Moscow, 7.3 million voters.*
1% = 73 000 voters
2%= 146 000
*
you write*
_*"that 146000 are 5%"*_

Explain. Please.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> *Why you didnt write that question was 3?*
> And 2% voted in favor of a referendum on three issues. And not just on the monument?



Because Moscow Council rejected the other two questions, so there remained only one question – the question about Dzerzhinsky. It is written on the article you gave a link. Read it more thoroughly.



Sonc said:


> *This question number two.*
> br 1 2015 -
> *
> In Moscow, 7.3 million voters.*
> 1% = 73 000 voters
> 2%= 146 000
> *
> you write*
> _*"that 146000 are 5%"*_
> 
> Explain. Please.



It seems that you are right, there must be 2% and they have gathered 2% of voters. There is a mistake on the communists’ site and I didn’t understand correctly the information on the site of the Central Election Committee. I have to admit that. I am sorry.


----------



## PK1

> I ask you again - how can you differ Ukrainians from Russian? Not all Russian speak Ukrainians, but ALL Ukrainians speak Russian. I would believe in ethnic cleansing, just if you explain me, HOW to separate Ukrainians ethnically, or, at least, by language? )))



---
Are you simply ignorant & a victim of Kremlin's nationalistic propaganda, or the Putin troll we believe you are?

Ukraine's official state language is UKRAINIAN, not Russian. Yes, Russian as a "minority" language is spoken by most Ukrainians (in addition to Ukrainian) in the eastern Donbas cities, due to forced Russification under the communist USSR.
However, many ethnic Ukrainians do not speak Russian in the western oblasts, especially in the rural areas.
Ethnic Russians (by family/culture & main language) were a MINORITY in the Donbas regions ... until asshole/Жopa Putin helped the Russian invaders cleanse the Ukrainians who wanted peace.

According to the 2001 Census, this map shows the areas in Ukraine that are predominantly *Ukrainian* (green) or other ethnicities.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> nteresting Russian law?  Planning to become a part of Russia?  Don't believe in Poroshenko's forces and NATO supply? )))
Click to expand...



'Sick dreams', 'woodhead'... Such a predictable childgarden level  After it you should make fart and laught ))



> Leave alone Variag for a while.



No. Ukraina didn't left Varjag 'for a while' - just sold it at the price of raw metal. It's a brilliant example of west-ukrainian approach to the all problems


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> I ask you again - how can you differ Ukrainians from Russian? Not all Russian speak Ukrainians, but ALL Ukrainians speak Russian. I would believe in ethnic cleansing, just if you explain me, HOW to separate Ukrainians ethnically, or, at least, by language? )))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you simply ignorant & a victim of Kremlin's nationalistic propaganda, or the Putin troll we believe you are?
Click to expand...


Yes, I'm troll, brainwashed by Kremlin and going to Ukraine as volunteer to perform ethnic cleansings. Just explain me, how I can at practic differ Ukrainian from Russian?



> Ukraine's official state language is UKRAINIAN, not Russian.



Yes, I know, it official enough to allow about half of deputies of Rada speak Ukrainian with mistakes ))



> However, many ethnic Ukrainians do not speak Russian in the western oblasts, especially in the rural areas.



Are you sure? Ok, just explain, how about 4 million of guest workers works at constructions in Russia without speaking of Russian? 

Almost all citizens from West Ukraine learnt Russian at schools and used Russian in life. I suspect, in front of a machine gun barrel ALL ukrainians will speak Russian well, including West Ukraine citizens too.



> According to the 2001 Census, this map shows the areas in Ukraine that are predominantly *Ukrainian* (green) or other ethnicities.
> View attachment 45848



Yes, and now see a language map. I'm going to Zaporizhia. Map says - most of citizens there are Ukrainians, but mostly speaking Russian. HOW can I separate Ukrainians from Russian?


----------



## Sonc

> Are you simply ignorant & a victim of Kremlin's nationalistic propaganda, or the Putin troll we believe you are?


Do you know Russian?


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> After it you should make fart and laught ))



Yeah, I have to admit that sometimes I can’t help but laugh reading your posts.



Sbiker said:


> 'Sick dreams', 'woodhead'...



It is sad but true. I think you should be grateful that you are told the truth about who you are in reality.
Don’t worry we won’t judge you too severely.



Sbiker said:


> No. Ukraina didn't left Varjag 'for a while' - just sold it at the price of raw metal. It's a brilliant example of west-ukrainian approach to the all problems



It may be a thousand times true, but what does it have to do with you or your country? Why are you so upset about a Ukrainian aircraft carrier? Are you a Ukrainian patriot?

So, you haven’t found additional words to say something about the hover? Don’t worry, I will help you. Just say that “Folks, I screwed up about the hover. Don’t judge me too severely because at least I have the balls to admit that”.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Well, you stupid.
> 60% of Muscovites want to put a monument.
> But for 1 month only 150,000 have signed.
> 
> You really dont understand that this is impossible?



If I understand correctly, it is my turn to ask questions.

Okay, what we have ascertained about the stuff? There were three questions which were supposed to be in the referendum – one about Dzerzhinsky and two about social issues. But Moscow Council agreed to include only the former question and rejected the latter two.

According to Russian law the organisers of a referendum (in this case it is the Communist party, unless I am mistaken) must gather signatures from 2% of the voters, and they have 30 days to do it. The organisers have succeeded in it – both in the percentage of the voters and in the term required.

After that the organisers have decided not to give the documents to an election committee, but to demand that all three questions be included in the poll.

Also, there are two sociological surveys (which were conducted not by the communists) which say that more than half of Muscovites support the idea of the monument.


And now here is my question:
How does all of that prove that it is impossible that more than half of Muscovites support the monument?


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> And now here is my question:
> How does all of that prove that it is impossible that more than half of Muscovites support the monument?


Russell s teapot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
 - .Ru 

As well as I predicted "Gazeta.Ru", communists refused delivery in the planned time of the signatures collected in support of a referendum on return of a monument to Dzerzhinsky to Lubyanka.


----------



## PK1

---
*Sbiker* asked:
"_HOW can I separate Ukrainians from Russian? _"

The Ukrainians will separate *you*!
Like they did the asshole Russian invaders in the Donbas who pretended to be Ukrainian-Russian (ethnic Russians living in Ukraine).
How? By your accent & other "strange behaviour".

Both Australians & New Zealanders speak English. *Different countries.*
How do they separate each other?
They also distinguished me from my accent and word usage.


----------



## Sonc

PK1 said:


> ---
> *Sbiker* asked:
> "_HOW can I separate Ukrainians from Russian? _"
> 
> The Ukrainians will separate *you*!
> Like they did the asshole Russian invaders in the Donbas who pretended to be Ukrainian-Russian (ethnic Russians living in Ukraine).
> How? By your accent & other "strange behaviour".
> 
> Both Australians & New Zealanders speak English. *Different countries.*
> How do they separate each other?
> They also distinguished me from my accent and word usage.


Do you know Russian?


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now here is my question:
> How does all of that prove that it is impossible that more than half of Muscovites support the monument?
> 
> 
> 
> Russell s teapot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> - .Ru
> 
> As well as I predicted "Gazeta.Ru", communists refused delivery in the planned time of the signatures collected in support of a referendum on return of a monument to Dzerzhinsky to Lubyanka.
Click to expand...

Just go to Minsk and see the Dzerzhinsky statue there. Great little celler pub on the same street. Feels like you are in the 50's or 60's with hammer and sickle posters and other symbols on all the walls.


----------



## Sonc

1) I live in Moscow. I can not speak for Minsk.
2) Where do you live?
3) A Confederate flag is what year? Also 60... 1860...

interesting. What is your opinion about the United States can make, if only to see one this report?










_
_


----------



## PK1

Sonc said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> *Sbiker* asked:
> "_HOW can I separate Ukrainians from Russian? _"
> 
> The Ukrainians will separate *you*!
> Like they did the asshole Russian invaders in the Donbas who pretended to be Ukrainian-Russian (ethnic Russians living in Ukraine).
> How? By your accent & other "strange behaviour".
> 
> Both Australians & New Zealanders speak English. *Different countries.*
> How do they separate each other?
> They also distinguished me from my accent and word usage.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know Russian?
Click to expand...


---
Not very well; took Russian class for one year many years ago.


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> ---
> *Sbiker* asked:
> "_HOW can I separate Ukrainians from Russian? _"
> 
> The Ukrainians will separate *you*!



You proved it. There are no other ethnic cleanses on Ukraine, except the crimes of Ukrainian ultra-nazi 'right sector' scums.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> After it you should make fart and laught ))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I have to admit that sometimes I can’t help but laugh reading your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sick dreams', 'woodhead'...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is sad but true. I think you should be grateful that you are told the truth about who you are in reality.
> Don’t worry we won’t judge you too severely.
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Ukraina didn't left Varjag 'for a while' - just sold it at the price of raw metal. It's a brilliant example of west-ukrainian approach to the all problems
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may be a thousand times true, but what does it have to do with you or your country? Why are you so upset about a Ukrainian aircraft carrier? Are you a Ukrainian patriot?
> 
> So, you haven’t found additional words to say something about the hover? Don’t worry, I will help you. Just say that “Folks, I screwed up about the hover. Don’t judge me too severely because at least I have the balls to admit that”.
Click to expand...


I'm just enjoying, how you distorting the facts from message to messase 

What I said:
By example, China is able to build much battle hovers from Soviet drawings, which would transport China soldiers to West Coast by a several hours...
Rocket hover "Loon" makes 500 km/h, so it able to reach Frisco* for about a day*

What you said:
So, in order to get to the US in 7 hours, the hover has to have the speed: 9870 km / 7 hours = 1410 km/h. It is incredible! It is more incredible, if we take into consideration that the speed of sound is merely 1192 km/h.

Where I was talking about 7 hours?  Nowhere  Wake up, dude, here's not Ukraine, where you can lie anything you want


----------



## PK1

Sbiker said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> *Sbiker* asked:
> "_HOW can I separate Ukrainians from Russian? _"
> 
> The Ukrainians will separate *you*!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You proved it. There are no other ethnic cleanses on Ukraine, except the crimes of Ukrainian ultra-nazi 'right sector' scums.
Click to expand...


---
You are mistaken, the OUN-B group were not Nazi; they hated Nazis too. However, they were Fascist *Nationalistic scum*, like Putin & most of his followers.
Your *Putin scumbags from Russia* are illegally fucking over innocent Ukrainian citizens, both ethnic Russians as well as ethnic Ukrainians.


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> *You proved it. There are no other ethnic cleanses on Ukraine, except the crimes of Ukrainian ultra-nazi 'right sector' scums.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are mistaken, the OUN-B group were not Nazi; they hated Nazis too. However, they were Fascist *Nationalistic scum*, like Putin & most of his followers.
> Your *Putin scumbags from Russia* are illegally fucking over innocent Ukrainian citizens, both ethnic Russians as well as ethnic Ukrainians.
Click to expand...




PK1 said:


> I don't support ethnic cleansing of any kind, and what Putin is responsible for in eastern Ukraine is *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*, who lived peacefully with their Russian neighbors in Donbass until the Russian nationalists invaded.



BLA BLA BLA and so on...  

Please, choose a single point of view before next discussion.... ))


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> I'm just enjoying, how you distorting the facts from message to messase
> 
> What I said:
> By example, China is able to build much battle hovers from Soviet drawings, which would transport China soldiers to West Coast by a several hours...
> Rocket hover "Loon" makes 500 km/h, so it able to reach Frisco* for about a day*
> 
> What you said:
> So, in order to get to the US in 7 hours, the hover has to have the speed: 9870 km / 7 hours = 1410 km/h. It is incredible! It is more incredible, if we take into consideration that the speed of sound is merely 1192 km/h.
> 
> Where I was talking about 7 hours?  Nowhere  Wake up, dude, here's not Ukraine, where you can lie anything you want



I think it would be fair to post here all our conversation about the theme so that every claim about distortion may be excluded.

_*You:* China and India - both have above billion people, both are boosts their progress in economics, both are making strong army, large resource interests and unpredictable way of thinking. And ocean would not be defence from they, because, I think, they also bought all the technologies, allows to cross it faster than USA navy reaction. By example, China is able to build much battle hovers from Soviet drawings, which would transport China soldiers to West Coast by a several hours...

While we have an conflict, sanctions, Ukraine, oil wars and so on - they grow rapid, with their armies and ambitions....


*I:* I have been reading this thread silently and haven’t had any intention of writing here, but the last statement has definitely changed my mind.

So, we get to know about hovers from the Soviet drawings which are able to get to the US West Coast from China in several hours. It is amazing. I don’t know what the respectable author of the statement meant by saying several hours, but let’s consider that it means 7 hours, for example. The distance from Shanghai to San Francisco, according to Yandex Maps, is 9870 km (it is the shortest way through Japan’ and Russian’ waters). So, in order to get to the US in 7 hours, the hover has to have the speed: 9870 km / 7 hours = 1410 km/h. It is incredible! It is more incredible, if we take into consideration that the speed of sound is merely 1192 km/h.

I wonder if geography and elementary arithmetic are in Russian schools’ curriculum at the present time.

PS 
Sorry, I forgot that miles are used in the US for the measurement of distance. 1 kilometre = 0.62 miles.


*You:* Thank's for approving!

Rocket hover "Loon" makes 500 km/h, so it able to reach Frisco for about a day 


*I:* I don’t want to upset you, but the maximal range of this beast is 1900 kilometres (1200 miles). So, it will be difficult to reach the US from China on it. But don’t worry, Russian engineers can propose the Chinese to use paddles for the rest of distance. I am sure the engineers already have the necessary drawings.


*You:* This beast lived in USSR, I know nothing about China, except the fact of buying one of aviacarriers of USSR in Ukraine by a price of raw metal 


*I:* What do you mean by saying ‘I know nothing about China’? A couple of posts above you said that China had drawings of super-duper hovers which could take Chinese soldiers to the US in the course of several hours. And now you are saying ‘I know nothing about China’. I think this case should be clarified completely, because it dramatically changes the balance of power in the region. _


Here is a link:
Dialogue with Putin. More US Politicians and Experts Talk about Better Relations with Russia Page 3 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

After that you decided not to engage in our dialogue go away with the head held high.

So, if understand correctly you disagree with the fact that I used 7 hours for calculations. No problem. You can offer your figure which according to your fillings more fits the term ‘several’. Then we can ask English-native speakers which of the two figures – yours or mine - more fits the term.

And I also have one more question – what about the maximal range?


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just enjoying, how you distorting the facts from message to messase
> 
> What I said:
> By example, China is able to build much battle hovers from Soviet drawings, which would transport China soldiers to West Coast by a several hours...
> Rocket hover "Loon" makes 500 km/h, so it able to reach Frisco* for about a day*
> 
> What you said:
> So, in order to get to the US in 7 hours, the hover has to have the speed: 9870 km / 7 hours = 1410 km/h. It is incredible! It is more incredible, if we take into consideration that the speed of sound is merely 1192 km/h.
> 
> Where I was talking about 7 hours?  Nowhere  Wake up, dude, here's not Ukraine, where you can lie anything you want
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be fair to post here all our conversation about the theme so that every claim about distortion may be excluded.
> 
> _*You:* China and India - both have above billion people, both are boosts their progress in economics, both are making strong army, large resource interests and unpredictable way of thinking. And ocean would not be defence from they, because, I think, they also bought all the technologies, allows to cross it faster than USA navy reaction. By example, China is able to build much battle hovers from Soviet drawings, which would transport China soldiers to West Coast by a several hours...
> 
> While we have an conflict, sanctions, Ukraine, oil wars and so on - they grow rapid, with their armies and ambitions....
> 
> 
> *I:* I have been reading this thread silently and haven’t had any intention of writing here, but the last statement has definitely changed my mind.
> 
> So, we get to know about hovers from the Soviet drawings which are able to get to the US West Coast from China in several hours. It is amazing. I don’t know what the respectable author of the statement meant by saying several hours, but let’s consider that it means 7 hours, for example. The distance from Shanghai to San Francisco, according to Yandex Maps, is 9870 km (it is the shortest way through Japan’ and Russian’ waters). So, in order to get to the US in 7 hours, the hover has to have the speed: 9870 km / 7 hours = 1410 km/h. It is incredible! It is more incredible, if we take into consideration that the speed of sound is merely 1192 km/h.
> 
> I wonder if geography and elementary arithmetic are in Russian schools’ curriculum at the present time.
> 
> PS
> Sorry, I forgot that miles are used in the US for the measurement of distance. 1 kilometre = 0.62 miles.
> 
> 
> *You:* Thank's for approving!
> 
> Rocket hover "Loon" makes 500 km/h, so it able to reach Frisco for about a day
> 
> 
> *I:* I don’t want to upset you, but the maximal range of this beast is 1900 kilometres (1200 miles). So, it will be difficult to reach the US from China on it. But don’t worry, Russian engineers can propose the Chinese to use paddles for the rest of distance. I am sure the engineers already have the necessary drawings.
> 
> 
> *You:* This beast lived in USSR, I know nothing about China, except the fact of buying one of aviacarriers of USSR in Ukraine by a price of raw metal
> 
> 
> *I:* What do you mean by saying ‘I know nothing about China’? A couple of posts above you said that China had drawings of super-duper hovers which could take Chinese soldiers to the US in the course of several hours. And now you are saying ‘I know nothing about China’. I think this case should be clarified completely, because it dramatically changes the balance of power in the region. _
> 
> 
> Here is a link:
> Dialogue with Putin. More US Politicians and Experts Talk about Better Relations with Russia Page 3 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> After that you decided not to engage in our dialogue go away with the head held high.
> 
> So, if understand correctly you disagree with the fact that I used 7 hours for calculations. No problem. You can offer your figure which according to your fillings more fits the term ‘several’. Then we can ask English-native speakers which of the two figures – yours or mine - more fits the term.
> 
> And I also have one more question – what about the maximal range?
Click to expand...


Yes! Now you understand, 'several' is not 'seven'! 

And about range. Loon had 2000 km operative range - it's about 4000 km of one-way range. So, I agree, 'Loon' is able to reach USA from China with 2 of full reloads 

If you re-read thread, I spoke not about 'Loon' as is, but '_battle hovers from Soviet drawings'. _Which may not to carry anti-ship missiles and have capacious tanks (or be able refuelled in air, like plains) and landing compartment for China soldiers.

And at last, why I remember 'Varjag'. Because after transportation it was claimed as 'floating casino' and about 8 years China "didn't have any aviacarriers", but then they've got almost finished aviacarrier "at one moment" without any building time. Maybe, they "dont' have any hovers" now is similar manner?


----------



## Camp

Battle hovers? Russia has put school of retards online. Should worry about world getting ready to bite Russia over veto of UN tribunal for MH-17.


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Battle hovers? Russia has put school of retards online. Should worry about world getting ready to bite Russia over veto of UN tribunal for MH-17.



Forget it. Consider it as bullshit from retards. I'm completely agree with you. Battle hovers is too fantastic!

P.S.


----------



## Camp

Sbiker said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Battle hovers? Russia has put school of retards online. Should worry about world getting ready to bite Russia over veto of UN tribunal for MH-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forget it. Consider it as bullshit from retards. I'm completely agree with you. Battle hovers is too fantastic!
> 
> P.S.
Click to expand...

They have a function and purpose and are great assets for what they are designed for. They are not designed for being a massive fleet to cross the pacific for invasion of America. Not until they reach super stealth capabilities. They will, or at least could probably be used by China for use in regional conflicts, which is what they are designed for.


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Battle hovers? Russia has put school of retards online. Should worry about world getting ready to bite Russia over veto of UN tribunal for MH-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forget it. Consider it as bullshit from retards. I'm completely agree with you. Battle hovers is too fantastic!
> 
> P.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have a function and purpose and are great assets for what they are designed for. They are not designed for being a massive fleet to cross the pacific for invasion of America. Not until they reach super stealth capabilities. They will, or at least could probably be used by China for use in regional conflicts, which is what they are designed for.
Click to expand...


Btw, about MH-17:

David L. Stern s phone talks before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 plane crash


----------



## PK1

Sbiker said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You proved it. There are no other ethnic cleanses on Ukraine, except the crimes of Ukrainian ultra-nazi 'right sector' scums.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are mistaken, the OUN-B group were not Nazi; they hated Nazis too. However, they were Fascist *Nationalistic scum*, like Putin & most of his followers.
> Your *Putin scumbags from Russia* are illegally fucking over innocent Ukrainian citizens, both ethnic Russians as well as ethnic Ukrainians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support ethnic cleansing of any kind, and what Putin is responsible for in eastern Ukraine is *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*, who lived peacefully with their Russian neighbors in Donbass until the Russian nationalists invaded.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BLA BLA BLA and so on...
> 
> Please, choose a single point of view before next discussion.... ))
Click to expand...


---
What don't you understand?
*I am against Nationalistic ethnic cleansing*, whether it was by *Stalin* in 1930's (5,000,000), *Hitler* in 1940's (6,000,000), *Lebed*/OUN-B in 1940's (80,000), or by *Putin*'s strategy in eastern Ukraine (2014-15).


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You proved it. There are no other ethnic cleanses on Ukraine, except the crimes of Ukrainian ultra-nazi 'right sector' scums.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are mistaken, the OUN-B group were not Nazi; they hated Nazis too. However, they were Fascist *Nationalistic scum*, like Putin & most of his followers.
> Your *Putin scumbags from Russia* are illegally fucking over innocent Ukrainian citizens, both ethnic Russians as well as ethnic Ukrainians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support ethnic cleansing of any kind, and what Putin is responsible for in eastern Ukraine is *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*, who lived peacefully with their Russian neighbors in Donbass until the Russian nationalists invaded.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BLA BLA BLA and so on...
> 
> Please, choose a single point of view before next discussion.... ))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> What don't you understand?
> *I am against Nationalistic ethnic cleansing*, whether it was by *Stalin* in 1930's (5,000,000), *Hitler* in 1940's (6,000,000), *Lebed*/OUN-B in 1940's (80,000), or by *Putin*'s strategy in eastern Ukraine (2014-15).
Click to expand...


So, which ethnic cleansing were performed by Stalin or Putin? If, how we found, there are no any ways to separate Ukrainian from Russian?


----------



## Stratford57

Watch, Sbiker, PK (as he claimed before):
-is not Ukrainian;
-doesn't know Russian well;
-but  uses Russian keyboard once in a while.
All above do not go well together. Liar, liar, liar...
I have a feeling he is writing from the hills of Muckachevo, where Right Sector is hiding from Ukrainian authorities... So, writing on USMB about non-existence of Nazis in Ukraine, he potentially could be just one of them:

"A pro-government Ukrainian militia accused of neo-Nazism has fought a gun battle with the country’s security forces that left at least three dead and several police vehicles destroyed by rocket-propelled grenades.

The fighting marks the first clash between Kiev and one of the country’s “volunteer battalions” who have led the fight against pro-Russian separatists.

The fierce confrontation in the city of Mukachevo, near Ukraine’s western border, involved members of Right Sector, a controversial nationalist group. Three policemen were among six injured, officials from the Ukrainian interior ministry said."

Kiev forced to fight its own fascist militias The Times


----------



## Sbiker

Stratford57 said:


> Watch, Sbiker, PK (as he claimed before):
> -is not Ukrainian;
> -doesn't know Russian well;
> -but  uses Russian keyboard once in a while.
> All above do not go well together. Liar, liar, liar...
> I have a feeling he is writing from the hills of Muckachevo, where Right Sector is hiding from Ukrainian authorities...



I think, we cannot claim him as criminal before the justice do it, but if it happens, I would not be surprised


----------



## PK1

Sbiker said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Battle hovers? Russia has put school of retards online. Should worry about world getting ready to bite Russia over veto of UN tribunal for MH-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forget it. Consider it as bullshit from retards. I'm completely agree with you. Battle hovers is too fantastic!
> 
> P.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have a function and purpose and are great assets for what they are designed for. They are not designed for being a massive fleet to cross the pacific for invasion of America. Not until they reach super stealth capabilities. They will, or at least could probably be used by China for use in regional conflicts, which is what they are designed for.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Btw, about MH-17:
> 
> David L. Stern s phone talks before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 plane crash
Click to expand...


---
Btw, about the Pressbox material:

"_*Disclaimer: Pressbox disclaims any inaccuracies in the content contained in these releases."*_

Let the UN tribunal proceed then!
So, why is Putin against the UN tribunal on the MH17 shoot-down?
That's against even the Russian people's preferences!

Check out the Levada survey on Russian opinions about the 
mh17 Tribunal In the UN ...

 -


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Yes! Now you understand, 'several' is not 'seven'!


Where did I say that ‘several’ is actually seven?



Sbiker said:


> And about range. Loon had 2000 km operative range - it's about 4000 km of one-way range. So, I agree, 'Loon' is able to reach USA from China with 2 of full reloads



What? Do you understand Russian?
Here is an article in Russian about the super-duper hover (though, it turned out to be an ekranoplan):
ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%8C_%28%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%29

Here is an article about what ‘дальность плавания’ means:
ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F 


And now tell us please how you understand this statement:

*Дальность плавания*— одна из основных характеристик судна. Определяется как *максимальное расстояние*, которое может пройти корабль (судно) без дозаправки топливом и смазочными материалами, а также пополнения запасов котельной воды (для пароходов и паротурбинных кораблей).

_"Wake up, dude, here's not Russia, where you can lie anything you want"_



Sbiker said:


> If you re-read thread, I spoke not about 'Loon' as is, but '_battle hovers from Soviet drawings'. _Which may not to carry anti-ship missiles and have capacious tanks (or be able refuelled in air, like plains) and landing compartment for China soldiers.



Unless I am mistaken, it is you mentioned about Loon as an example. But, anyway, it is no problem.
Do you have any information about these hovers? Or it is just some other bullshit?



Sbiker said:


> And at last, why I remember 'Varjag'. Because after transportation it was claimed as 'floating casino' and about 8 years China "didn't have any aviacarriers", but then they've got almost finished aviacarrier "at one moment" without any building time. Maybe, they "dont' have any hovers" now is similar manner?



There is one problem about your statement. The Variag existed in nature ant that time and it was sold to the Chinese. But your super-duper hovers which are able to get to the US from China in the course of several hours or a day exist only in your statements. Please remind me – have I already told you about your sick dreams?


----------



## PK1

Sbiker said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You proved it. There are no other ethnic cleanses on Ukraine, except the crimes of Ukrainian ultra-nazi 'right sector' scums.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are mistaken, the OUN-B group were not Nazi; they hated Nazis too. However, they were Fascist *Nationalistic scum*, like Putin & most of his followers.
> Your *Putin scumbags from Russia* are illegally fucking over innocent Ukrainian citizens, both ethnic Russians as well as ethnic Ukrainians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support ethnic cleansing of any kind, and what Putin is responsible for in eastern Ukraine is *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*, who lived peacefully with their Russian neighbors in Donbass until the Russian nationalists invaded.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BLA BLA BLA and so on...
> 
> Please, choose a single point of view before next discussion.... ))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> What don't you understand?
> *I am against Nationalistic ethnic cleansing*, whether it was by *Stalin* in 1930's (5,000,000), *Hitler* in 1940's (6,000,000), *Lebed*/OUN-B in 1940's (80,000), or by *Putin*'s strategy in eastern Ukraine (2014-15).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, which ethnic cleansing were performed by Stalin or Putin? If, how we found, there are no any ways to separate Ukrainian from Russian?
Click to expand...


---
No way to separate? Nice try.
In the Stalin & Putin cases, you only need to look at the deaths in Russia vs Ukraine territories. Duh!


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! Now you understand, 'several' is not 'seven'!
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say that ‘several’ is actually seven?
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> And about range. Loon had 2000 km operative range - it's about 4000 km of one-way range. So, I agree, 'Loon' is able to reach USA from China with 2 of full reloads
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What? Do you understand Russian?
> Here is an article in Russian about the super-duper hover (though, it turned out to be an ekranoplan):
> ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%8C_%28%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%29
> 
> Here is an article about what ‘дальность плавания’ means:
> ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F
> 
> 
> And now tell us please how you understand this statement:
> 
> *Дальность плавания*— одна из основных характеристик судна. Определяется как *максимальное расстояние*, которое может пройти корабль (судно) без дозаправки топливом и смазочными материалами, а также пополнения запасов котельной воды (для пароходов и паротурбинных кораблей).
> 
> _"Wake up, dude, here's not Russia, where you can lie anything you want"_
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you re-read thread, I spoke not about 'Loon' as is, but '_battle hovers from Soviet drawings'. _Which may not to carry anti-ship missiles and have capacious tanks (or be able refuelled in air, like plains) and landing compartment for China soldiers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, it is you mentioned about Loon as an example. But, anyway, it is no problem.
> Do you have any information about these hovers? Or it is just some other bullshit?
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> And at last, why I remember 'Varjag'. Because after transportation it was claimed as 'floating casino' and about 8 years China "didn't have any aviacarriers", but then they've got almost finished aviacarrier "at one moment" without any building time. Maybe, they "dont' have any hovers" now is similar manner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is one problem about your statement. The Variag existed in nature ant that time and it was sold to the Chinese. But your super-duper hovers which are able to get to the US from China in the course of several hours or a day exist only in your statements. Please remind me – have I already told you about your sick dreams?
Click to expand...


Ok, 2000 and 3 reloads  Or construct something as Be-2500 and reach Frisco without reload. How can you believe in meaning of details, if we speaking about hypotethic things? Are you able to separate dreams from reality?



> But your super-duper hovers which are able to get to the US from China in the course of several hours or a day exist only in your statements.



God-damn, offcourse! You got it! After week of discussion you've got the main idea!  Congratulations ))


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You proved it. There are no other ethnic cleanses on Ukraine, except the crimes of Ukrainian ultra-nazi 'right sector' scums.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are mistaken, the OUN-B group were not Nazi; they hated Nazis too. However, they were Fascist *Nationalistic scum*, like Putin & most of his followers.
> Your *Putin scumbags from Russia* are illegally fucking over innocent Ukrainian citizens, both ethnic Russians as well as ethnic Ukrainians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support ethnic cleansing of any kind, and what Putin is responsible for in eastern Ukraine is *ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians*, who lived peacefully with their Russian neighbors in Donbass until the Russian nationalists invaded.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BLA BLA BLA and so on...
> 
> Please, choose a single point of view before next discussion.... ))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> What don't you understand?
> *I am against Nationalistic ethnic cleansing*, whether it was by *Stalin* in 1930's (5,000,000), *Hitler* in 1940's (6,000,000), *Lebed*/OUN-B in 1940's (80,000), or by *Putin*'s strategy in eastern Ukraine (2014-15).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, which ethnic cleansing were performed by Stalin or Putin? If, how we found, there are no any ways to separate Ukrainian from Russian?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> No way to separate? Nice try.
> In the Stalin & Putin cases, you only need to look at the deaths in Russia vs Ukraine territories. Duh!
Click to expand...


And what?


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> God-damn, offcourse! You got it! After week of discussion you've got the main idea!  Congratulations ))



Main idea? By saying it you mean that you screwed up again and don’t have the balls to admit it directly? Don’t worry, castrated troll, it has been well known from the start.


----------



## PK1

PK1 said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Battle hovers? Russia has put school of retards online. Should worry about world getting ready to bite Russia over veto of UN tribunal for MH-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forget it. Consider it as bullshit from retards. I'm completely agree with you. Battle hovers is too fantastic!
> 
> P.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have a function and purpose and are great assets for what they are designed for. They are not designed for being a massive fleet to cross the pacific for invasion of America. Not until they reach super stealth capabilities. They will, or at least could probably be used by China for use in regional conflicts, which is what they are designed for.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Btw, about MH-17:
> 
> David L. Stern s phone talks before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 plane crash
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Btw, about the Pressbox material:
> 
> "_*Disclaimer: Pressbox disclaims any inaccuracies in the content contained in these releases."*_
> 
> Let the UN tribunal proceed then!
> So, why is Putin against the UN tribunal on the MH17 shoot-down?
> That's against even the Russian people's preferences!
> 
> Check out the Levada survey on Russian opinions about the
> mh17 Tribunal In the UN ...
> 
> -
Click to expand...


---
A few hours ago, cowardly Russia vetoed a UN resolution for a criminal tribunal on the MH17 disaster.
Gee, I wonder why? 
If innocent, Russia would not want to insult the relatives of the dead.

*Putin is a real scumbag.* He made this ridiculous statement after flight MH17 was shot down a year ago:
"_The state over whose territory this happened is responsible for this terrible tragedy,_" with reference to the government in Kiev.
Supplying his Russian comrades in the Donbass with lethal weapons carries no responsibility?
Wow, what a fucking scumbag.


----------



## defcon4

*This is cool, Russians and Ukrainians are duking it out on USMB!!!! Why? Maybe it is neutral territory, no repercussions? 

Putin is COOL!!! He's got steel balls clinking as he walks.

  
*


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> God-damn, offcourse! You got it! After week of discussion you've got the main idea!  Congratulations ))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Main idea? By saying it you mean that you screwed up again and don’t have the balls to admit it directly? Don’t worry, castrated troll, it has been well known from the start.
Click to expand...


... and footless, yellowearth-worm, yeah?  Relax - I've also read it from Jungle Book of Kipling ))))))))))))


----------



## Sbiker

defcon4 said:


> *This is cool, Russians and Ukrainians are duking it out on USMB!!!! Why? Maybe it is neutral territory, no repercussions?
> 
> *


*
*
It's a sandbox for civilian, who is too cowardly to take weapon and go to front line ))
*


defcon4 said:



			Putin is COOL!!! He's got steel balls clinking as he walks.
View attachment 46016 View attachment 46018

Click to expand...

*
Putin - it's mirror of ours. Patriots see him as patriot. Liberals see him as liberal. You see him as a steel-ball-clinking man - you're really cool. And if Ukrainians see him as 'huilo' - I wouldn't comment it ))))))))))))))))


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> A few hours ago, cowardly Russia vetoed a UN resolution for a criminal tribunal on the MH17 disaster.
> Gee, I wonder why?
> If innocent, Russia would not want to insult the relatives of the dead.



Russia wouldn't vetoed tribunal, if you start work from nazi crime with RA-85693.


----------



## defcon4

Sbiker said:


> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This is cool, Russians and Ukrainians are duking it out on USMB!!!! Why? Maybe it is neutral territory, no repercussions?
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a sandbox for civilian, who is too cowardly to take weapon and go to front line ))
> *
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Putin is COOL!!! He's got steel balls clinking as he walks.
> View attachment 46016 View attachment 46018
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Putin - it's mirror of ours. Patriots see him as patriot. Liberals see him as liberal. You see him as a steel-ball-clinking man - you're really cool. And if Ukrainians see him as 'huilo' - I wouldn't comment it ))))))))))))))))
Click to expand...

    
*Can you see the difference?*


----------



## PK1

Sbiker said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few hours ago, cowardly Russia vetoed a UN resolution for a criminal tribunal on the MH17 disaster.
> Gee, I wonder why?
> If innocent, Russia would not want to insult the relatives of the dead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia wouldn't vetoed tribunal, if you start work from nazi crime with RA-85693.
Click to expand...


---
That 2001 flight is another example of *Kremlin denial & Putin's lying*.
Russian officials initially dismissed the correct American claim that the plane was shot down by an errant S-200 missile strike; the Russians said the incident was "_unworthy of attention"_.
Putin told the press the next day that "_the weapons used in those exercises had such characteristics that make it impossible for them to reach the air corridor through which the plane was moving_".
As it turned out, Putin was full of shit then, as he is now with his Ukraine war and MH17 shootdown.


----------



## PK1

defcon4 said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This is cool, Russians and Ukrainians are duking it out on USMB!!!! Why? Maybe it is neutral territory, no repercussions?
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a sandbox for civilian, who is too cowardly to take weapon and go to front line ))
> *
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Putin is COOL!!! He's got steel balls clinking as he walks.
> View attachment 46016 View attachment 46018
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Putin - it's mirror of ours. Patriots see him as patriot. Liberals see him as liberal. You see him as a steel-ball-clinking man - you're really cool. And if Ukrainians see him as 'huilo' - I wouldn't comment it ))))))))))))))))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> View attachment 46057 View attachment 46058 View attachment 46059 View attachment 46060
> *Can you see the difference?*
Click to expand...


---
The difference is that Putin has a need to show toughness to cover his Puny height, whereas Obama is secure with his appearance and prefers to express intellect.


----------



## defcon4

PK1 said:


> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This is cool, Russians and Ukrainians are duking it out on USMB!!!! Why? Maybe it is neutral territory, no repercussions?
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a sandbox for civilian, who is too cowardly to take weapon and go to front line ))
> *
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Putin is COOL!!! He's got steel balls clinking as he walks.
> View attachment 46016 View attachment 46018
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Putin - it's mirror of ours. Patriots see him as patriot. Liberals see him as liberal. You see him as a steel-ball-clinking man - you're really cool. And if Ukrainians see him as 'huilo' - I wouldn't comment it ))))))))))))))))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> View attachment 46057 View attachment 46058 View attachment 46059 View attachment 46060
> *Can you see the difference?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> The difference is that Putin has a need to show toughness to cover his Puny height, whereas Obama is secure with his appearance and prefers to express intellect.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. In my view Putin is a man bettering his country while Obamination is a pussy destroying our country.


----------



## PK1

defcon4 said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This is cool, Russians and Ukrainians are duking it out on USMB!!!! Why? Maybe it is neutral territory, no repercussions?
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a sandbox for civilian, who is too cowardly to take weapon and go to front line ))
> *
> 
> 
> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Putin is COOL!!! He's got steel balls clinking as he walks.
> View attachment 46016 View attachment 46018
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Putin - it's mirror of ours. Patriots see him as patriot. Liberals see him as liberal. You see him as a steel-ball-clinking man - you're really cool. And if Ukrainians see him as 'huilo' - I wouldn't comment it ))))))))))))))))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> View attachment 46057 View attachment 46058 View attachment 46059 View attachment 46060
> *Can you see the difference?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> The difference is that Putin has a need to show toughness to cover his Puny height, whereas Obama is secure with his appearance and prefers to express intellect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I beg to differ. In my view Putin is a man bettering his country while Obamination is a pussy destroying our country.
Click to expand...


---
If you focus on pussy, then you must be a dick.


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> As it turned out, Putin was full of shit then, as he is now with his Ukraine war and MH17 shootdown.



First, there are really no results of investigation - it still continues. Every tribunal or judge now, without full information - is just political speculation. It's so interesting - plane was Malaysian, with many dutch passengers - but Malaysia and Holland both don't worry about their deaths - just playing politics.

If the Russia stroke the plane - why all others since this incident are flying above Russia? Just look at flightradar.com. Are they all suiciders?


----------



## PK1

Sbiker said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As it turned out, Putin was full of shit then, as he is now with his Ukraine war and MH17 shootdown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, there are really no results of investigation - it still continues. Every tribunal or judge now, without full information - is just political speculation. It's so interesting - plane was Malaysian, with many dutch passengers - but Malaysia and Holland both don't worry about their deaths - just playing politics.
> 
> If the Russia stroke the plane - why all others since this incident are flying above Russia? Just look at flightradar.com. Are they all suiciders?
Click to expand...


---
Based on the preliminary report, SOMEONE is responsible for the object(s) that destroyed the MH17 airplane. *Do you not agree?*
The tribunal proposal was simply to begin the criminal portion of the investigation a few months before the final report is released.

If Russia were innocent (and Ukraine or USA were guilty instead, as Kremlin propaganda claims), why would it object to a tribunal? Instead, Russian leaders would support it to enhance their influence over their population ... of which half support the tribunal!

However, the current investigation leaks point to its conclusion: MH17 was downed by a surface to air missile fired from a BUK system brought into east Ukraine from Russia and was most likely operated by a Russian crew.
The pic below shows a satellite view of this strike by the BUK's SA-11 missile:


----------



## PK1

Sbiker ...
Re: your comment:
_"If the Russia stroke the plane - why all others since this incident are flying above Russia? Just look at flightradar.com. Are they all suiciders?"_

That MH17 disaster was an *ACCIDENT*.  No one thinks that Russia, or any civilized country, would willingly shoot down a commercial aircraft. Duh!


----------



## Sbiker

PK1 said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As it turned out, Putin was full of shit then, as he is now with his Ukraine war and MH17 shootdown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, there are really no results of investigation - it still continues. Every tribunal or judge now, without full information - is just political speculation. It's so interesting - plane was Malaysian, with many dutch passengers - but Malaysia and Holland both don't worry about their deaths - just playing politics.
> 
> If the Russia stroke the plane - why all others since this incident are flying above Russia? Just look at flightradar.com. Are they all suiciders?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Based on the preliminary report, SOMEONE is responsible for the object(s) that destroyed the MH17 airplane. *Do you not agree?*
> The tribunal proposal was simply to begin the criminal portion of the investigation a few months before the final report is released.
> 
> If Russia were innocent (and Ukraine or USA were guilty instead, as Kremlin propaganda claims), why would it object to a tribunal? Instead, Russian leaders would support it to enhance their influence over their population ... of which half support the tribunal!
> 
> However, the current investigation leaks point to its conclusion: MH17 was downed by a surface to air missile fired from a BUK system brought into east Ukraine from Russia and was most likely operated by a Russian crew.
> The pic below shows a satellite view of this strike by the BUK's SA-11 missile:
> View attachment 46197
Click to expand...


Songs, like yours, world singing about Russia periodically  When Russia really does something -  it doesn't hide it. Did we press the USA aircrafts? Yes. Did we sumulate attack at USS Donald Cook by Su-24? Yes, we did. Did we lie about using force to save peacekeepers in Osetia and kick down Georgia with their Saakashvili (now - your boss of Odessa, hehehe )?

"Strike, hide and lie" - it's a style of Ukraine  And I understand ukrainian activity - because Russian army now never have missiles with double tee strike element... )) It's an old missiles from USSR, still using in Ukrainian army, or new Israel-producing missiles...


----------

