# The Misrepresented Political History of the Confederate Battle Flag



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

Astute observers of my forum avatar may realize that I have the Confederate Battle Flag as my background. But only for a week. I so far have tried to stay out of this debate, but I draw the line here.* I also support Governor Nikki Haley's move to remove it from the capitol, but this is political correctness run amok. I don't care what views people have of it. *To me it represents a deeply flawed heritage, not racism, slavery, or exclusiveness. It's history, not a history I'm particularly proud of, but there it is.

The common misconceptions are that this flag represented racism and slavery, or was flown on slave ships or whatnot. Some say it was the national flag of the Confederacy. None of those things are true.

1) I can find no accounts of this flag being flown on slave ships. None. No Confederate flag was ever flown on a slave ship.  English, Dutch, Portuguese, and the New England States ships were used in the slave trade.

2) It was never the official national flag of the Confederacy. It was a flag carried into battle by armies such as the Army of Virginia and Tennessee. It was used as a Naval Jack in the Confederate Navy. There is a reason they called it a "battle flag," because it was just that.







_An artist's depiction of Pickett's Charge, which took place on July 3, 1863_






_The CSS Richmond_

3) There were three other flags that the Confederacy used during the war, none of which were this flag. Here's a fun fact: Georgia today uses a variant of the "Stars and Bars" or the very first Confederate National Flag. Yet, no outrage persists over it. Common misconceptions about the flag are that it was the "Stars and Bars" but that happened to be the first national flag of the Confederacy.






_The three national flags of the Confederacy, pictured in order. The first was flown from 1861-1863, the second from 1863-1865, and the third in 1865 which was never mass produced after the Confederate States were defeated by Union troops. _





http://data:image/png;base64,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

_The "Stars and Bars" variant of the Georgia State Flag._






_The original "Stars and Bars," the First Confederate National Flag_


4) For people wanting to scream racism, look at the 2nd National flag. The white field with the battle flag inlay was supposed to represent the white supremacist viewpoint many confederate citizens held at the time:






_The 2nd Confederate National Flag_

5) For those of you who believe the American Flag has always represented freedom, you would be surprised to know that it flew over a slavery ridden America for 85 years. Yes, the Northerners owned slaves, too. So, if you want to draw parallels, the US Flag could be seen in the same light as the Confederate Battle Flag. In fact, the Klan usurped the US National flag to promote a hateful racist agenda, as seen here, just as white supremacy groups like the CCC, and the Aryan Nation have used the Confederate flag as sign of resistance:






_This picture here is of a Klan march on Washington D.C. in 1925_

6) The reason why I support the removal of the Confederate flag from the SC statehouse is for historical context. It wasn't designed to fly over any buildings, but over regiments in the battlefield. Nothing more. So, it is more a misrepresentation of the purpose of the flag than anything else.

People have a right to be offended, people have a right not to be. People have a right to represent their heritage. I've grown annoyed by people who see their history as offensive or repressive and must censor it to avoid causing derision. But I'd much rather represent my history than forget it. So, I'd urge you to educate yourselves on the true history of this flag.

EDIT: I changed my avatar after one hour. I'm not keeping the confederate emblem because I am not a rebel and I don't claim the Confederacy as my "heritage."


----------



## 1stRambo (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Astute observers of my forum avatar may realize that I have the Confederate Battle Flag as my background. But only for a week. I so far have tried to stay out of this debate, but I draw the line here.* I also support Governor Nikki Haley's move to remove it from the capitol, but this is political correctness run amok. I don't care what views people have of it. *To me it represents a deeply flawed heritage, not racism, slavery, or exclusiveness. It's history, not a history I'm particularly proud of, but there it is.
> 
> The common misconceptions are that this flag represented racism and slavery, or was flown on slave ships or whatnot. Some say it was the national flag of the Confederacy. None of those things are true.
> 
> ...



Yo, I agree, but now you gave all the dummies on the left something to start bitching about?

"GTP"


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

1stRambo said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Astute observers of my forum avatar may realize that I have the Confederate Battle Flag as my background. But only for a week. I so far have tried to stay out of this debate, but I draw the line here.* I also support Governor Nikki Haley's move to remove it from the capitol, but this is political correctness run amok. I don't care what views people have of it. *To me it represents a deeply flawed heritage, not racism, slavery, or exclusiveness. It's history, not a history I'm particularly proud of, but there it is.
> ...



They can bitch all they want. If they are so thin skinned as to whine about a flag, so be it. Free country.


----------



## Mace (Jun 23, 2015)

Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

Mace said:


> Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.



And you're one to talk of such a thing with an avatar like yours.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 23, 2015)

I don't think that many people actually believe any of the things you claim are common misconceptions, but even if they were, they're completely irrelevant to the problem that people have with the flag. It's about what it represents to people, not it's factual history.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Mace said:
> 
> 
> > Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.
> ...



Seriously, dude?

You're better than the "Gays are pedophiles" bullshit.


----------



## 1stRambo (Jun 23, 2015)

Mace said:


> Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.



Yo, another sick Socialist PIG!!!

"GTP"


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> You're better than the "Gays are pedophiles" bullshit.



No sir, I was not being serious.

And we aren't discussing that topic here, besides, I thought that broke forum rules or something.

He made a ridiculous comparison between the battle flag and child porn, so I decided to make an equally ridiculous claim. If he doesn't like that, he can rescind his comment, and I'll happily remove mine.


----------



## aaronleland (Jun 23, 2015)

Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.



So, free speech is only free when it doesn't offend someone. Cool beans.


----------



## Mace (Jun 23, 2015)

Socialist? but we haven't even got into the evils of capitalism yet. 

Burn the confederate battle flag avatars. That's even more exciting. Kill it with fire.


----------



## 1stRambo (Jun 23, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.



Yo, we have a sissy in the room!

"GTP"


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > You're better than the "Gays are pedophiles" bullshit.
> ...



It's not a rule violation, but you don't have to stoop to their level. 

I won't claim I never flame, but it's never meanspirited.


----------



## aaronleland (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.
> ...



I have said numerous times that nothing about the flag offends me. Fly it anywhere on your private property you want, but flying the flag of an army who committed treason above a government building is ridiculous. Why don't we just fly the swastika above our capitol to celebrate German heritage?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



You are right.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> Why don't we just fly the swastika above our capitol to celebrate German heritage?



Because not all Germans are Nazi supporters. In fact, I don't think any of them are.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 23, 2015)

if you want to have one in a window or your yard 

that is one 

flying one at a state capital  probably not


----------



## aaronleland (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't we just fly the swastika above our capitol to celebrate German heritage?
> ...



Do you believe the Confederates committed treason against our government?

Do you believe a traitor's flag should be hoisted above a government building?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't we just fly the swastika above our capitol to celebrate German heritage?
> ...



How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?



Admittedly, that number is unknown. But, it is of sincere belief that those who support it are in a clear minority.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> flying one at a state capital probably not



So, nobody had a problem with it... until Dylann Roof shot up a black church? I'm quite perplexed by all of this to be honest.


----------



## aaronleland (Jun 23, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> if you want to have one in a window or your yard
> 
> that is one
> 
> flying one at a state capital  probably not



Exactly. Display it on any private property you want, but displaying the flag of an army whose goal was to overthrow the American government above a government building is absurd.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.
> ...



I don't understand your argument. How does "free speech" apply to flags on government property?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> Do you believe the Confederates committed treason against our government?



I do.




aaronleland said:


> Do you believe a traitor's flag should be hoisted above a government building?



No, it is a misrepresentation of the history of that flag. Now, states started flying any of the national flags, then once again, no.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > flying one at a state capital probably not
> ...



People have had "problems" with it for more than a hundred years.


----------



## BluesLegend (Jun 23, 2015)

Recognize the left's flag faux rage for what it is, another attempt to stifle free speech and opposing views.

If you are a conservative you are a racist.

If you are white you are a racist.

If you live in the south you are a racist.

If you drive a truck with a Confederate battle flag in the window you are a racist.

If you are a white conservative living in the south driving a truck with a Confederate battle flag in the window you are like a quadruple racist.


----------



## rdean (Jun 23, 2015)

You guys can't have it both ways.  How many USMB right wingers believe it was conservative confederate Republicans who "freed the slaves"?  The true patriots who fought the Democratic liberal south and finally drove all the Democrats, uh, where?  Into the north? And then it was the much loved conservative Republicans who moved to the south and became southern Republicans?  Or something?  And then the liberal Democrats moved north and then, uh, well, it get hazy.  But what ever happened, it was conservative Republicans who won the war and freed the slaves.  Not sure how the flag fits in, but, hey, ask conservative Republicans on the USMB.  It's their history.  No one says it has to be dipped in facts.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> How does "free speech" apply to flags on government property?



They don't.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > flying one at a state capital probably not
> ...




i have always thought it was weird flying one over a capital

the decedents of general lee's northern Virginia army should be the only ones wanting for the southern cross


----------



## BluesLegend (Jun 23, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > if you want to have one in a window or your yard
> ...



Have you been paying attention to the corruption in the Federal government? Don't blindly defend a government that frequently throws its own citizens under the bus.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...



Thing is, I agree with everything you just said.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > Do you believe the Confederates committed treason against our government?
> ...



*it is a misrepresentation of the history of that flag*

it was a battle flag 

a battle flag used against the United States


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 23, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



If we all agree, then what the fuck are we arguing about?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 23, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > aaronleland said:
> ...



It wasn't meant to be flown over a public building.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 24, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > if you want to have one in a window or your yard
> ...



Overthrow? Are you kidding me? The Confederate States of America had no such goal.

That's a flat out lie.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...



Would you believe me if I told you I was running this thread as an experiment?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

To be quite honest,  I didn't know which size to take.  So, I made this thread.  It is clear now that the side I took in the opening paragraph of my post was the correct one.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

Gonna take weeks to get this tar and feathers out of my clothes.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 24, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > aaronleland said:
> ...



It was the battle flag of a peoples who wished to secede from the United States and who by force were not allowed to.


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 24, 2015)

My great great grandfather died fighting under that flag trying to defend his home and family from murderous foreign invaders. To me that flag rightly honors him.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

aaronleland 

Did you bring any twinkies? In the Blue Bonnie wrapper?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> aaronleland
> 
> Did you bring any twinkies? In the Blue Bonnie wrapper?



I guess not. They must have run out.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 24, 2015)

"The Misrepresented Political History of the Confederate Battle Flag"

Nonsense.

No one is 'misrepresenting' anything.

This is solely about most on the ridiculous right unwilling to address the issue of racism in America, and understandably so.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.
> ...


Wrong.

This issue has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with 'free speech'; the First Amendment concerns only the relationship between government and those governed, not the relationship between and among private persons or organizations, who are at liberty to express their opposition to the flag and petition government for its removal from state property.

And no government entity in any state or jurisdiction is proposing that the confederate flag be 'banned' or otherwise 'prohibited' with regard to private use, private citizens who wish to display the flag will also remain at liberty to do so.


----------



## Bush92 (Jun 24, 2015)

It must stand as a symbol of resistance to the 1984 Orwellian NYC, Boston, Washing D.C. liberal Marxist that want to rewrite history.


----------



## NoNukes (Jun 24, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Mace said:
> ...


Is he?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 24, 2015)

NoNukes said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Yes.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

I will not argue about the Confederate Flag anymore US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


----------



## NoNukes (Jun 24, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...


Seeing as I respect YOU, I will accept that.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Jun 24, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Mace said:
> ...



No he isn't. You are just the NICEST GUY TO EVER EXIST.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > flying one at a state capital probably not
> ...



That's purposeful ignorance. People have had a problem with it for decades.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Jun 24, 2015)

Experiment my ass.


----------



## rdean (Jun 24, 2015)

tinydancer said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...


What was their goal?


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



correct


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 24, 2015)

tinydancer said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...



true


----------



## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 24, 2015)

Mace said:


> Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.



I am sure you'd know.


----------



## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 24, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > aaronleland said:
> ...



Answer to the first question....NO.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 24, 2015)

Racist white inbred redneck loons need to learn history. Wait, what? What i am i saying? Not sure an inbred redneck loon is capable of learning. Anyway, the Confederacy was never part of America. It was eliminated a 150 years ago. There is no valid justification for flying its flag on Government grounds. The Confederacy wasn't and isn't America. So just take the damn thing down.


----------



## Syriusly (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> 6) The reason why I support the removal of the Confederate flag from the SC statehouse is for historical context. It wasn't designed to fly over any buildings, but over regiments in the battlefield. Nothing more. So, it is more a misrepresentation of the purpose of the flag than anything else.
> 
> People have a right to be offended, people have a right not to be. People have a right to represent their heritage. I've grown annoyed by people who see their history as offensive or repressive and must censor it to avoid causing derision. But I'd much rather represent my history than forget it. So, I'd urge you to educate yourselves on the true history of this flag."



I actually liked what you presented- but you ended your history of the Confederate Battle Flag prematurely, which I think detracts from your post. 

After the Civil War, the Confederate Battle Flag largely disappeared, coming out for veterans events and such. It was not flown on State houses, was not on State flags- not until the late 1940's and afterwards- when the Dixiecrats(Southern Democrats) resurrected it as part of their fight to preserve segregation. 

The History of the Confederate Battle Flag - The Atlantic
_
Georgia inserted the battle flag into its state flag in 1956. Two years later, South Carolina made it a crime to desecrate the Confederate flag. And then, on the centennial of the day South Carolina opened fire on Fort Sumter came in 1961, it hoisted the battle flag above its Capitol._

So the modern use of the Confederate Battle Flag, dates back only a few decades and was linked to the fight about segregation. 

I agree that such use is an abuse of the original purpose of the flag- and while I agree this is entirely a State issue- up to each state to decide- I think Haley made the right decision.


----------



## Camp (Jun 24, 2015)

LoneLaugher said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...


S. Carolina has been under a boycott sponsored by the NAACP and the NCAA has adhered and respected it along with many others for over 10 years.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 24, 2015)

rdean said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > aaronleland said:
> ...



To secede from the Union.


----------



## BluesLegend (Jun 24, 2015)

Tune in next week when the left attacks Texas use of the Lone Star flag and Texas tells them to piss off.


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 24, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> displaying the flag of an army whose goal was to overthrow the American government above a government building is absurd



Well it is a State Government building isn't it, so shouldn't the State decide?


----------



## bendog (Jun 24, 2015)

The OP is out and out BS, because SC enacted its law for flying the flag in 1962 or 3 directly in opposition to civil rights.  You might be able to claim some heritage not hate is some instances but NOT in this one.


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 24, 2015)

paulitician said:


> Racist white inbred redneck loons need to learn history. Wait, what? What i am i saying? Not sure an inbred redneck loon is capable of learning. Anyway, the Confederacy was never part of America. It was eliminated a 150 years ago. There is no valid justification for flying its flag on Government grounds. The Confederacy wasn't and isn't America. So just take the damn thing down.



The State in question was part of the Confederacy, so you big goobernment bullys just butt out and let the State decide what flag they want to fly.


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 24, 2015)

bendog said:


> The OP is out and out BS, because SC enacted its law for flying the flag in 1962 or 3 directly in opposition to civil rights.  You might be able to claim some heritage not hate is some instances but NOT in this one.



52 year old heritage of flag flying in the face of civil liberty.  Long heritage of denying civil liberties.


----------



## mikegriffith1 (Jun 24, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.



The Confederate government was not treasonous. The U.S. Constitution did not prohibit secession and the founding fathers made it clear that the Union was never intended to be held together by force. In fact, the federal government was not supposed to send troops into a state without the permission of the state legislature or the governor.

Personally, I think Southern secession was unjustified and unwise, but the Southern states did have the right to leave and form their own government. And, once formed, that government made every effort to establish peaceful relations with the federal government. The Confederacy offered to pay the South's share of the national debt, offered to pay compensation for federal facilities in the South, and offered to establish a most-favored-nation-status trade agreement with the U.S.


----------



## Seawytch (Jun 24, 2015)

tinydancer said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



And it was added to state buildings and flags to protest desegregation.

You can't throw rocks and hide your hands.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

Camp said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



I wonder how it impacted the economy? To my knowledge,  it hasn't.


----------



## Camp (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


No championship games or series for any college sport. What do you suppose Bowl Games are worth?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

Camp said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Camp said:
> ...



I think the Gamecocks have been to plenty of bowls, and have competed for the SEC crown on many occasions. The Tigers likewise for the ACC.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

I don't think they've been banned from anything,  Camp. Are you sure?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Been to where?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Jun 24, 2015)

This is nothing more than Capitalizing on a Tragedy, to create a hysteria in the heat of the moment to start a movement to eliminate a symbol, which happens to be part of the history of the United States.................

All across the country the movement is spreading..............which is an over reaction to the acts of a lunatic..................

It flew over a Civil War Memorial.............what is next...................tear down that memorial...........keep the hysterics at a maximum.............tear down every War memorial for the confederacy and ERASE it from our history books.................all thanks to a lunatic and those that continue to Fan the Flames............

Mean while.........The Senate passed the TPP to outsource our jobs overseas.............and Republican Congressmen who voted against it are being demoted via BONEHEAD for failing to toe the line..................

KEEP YOUR FOCUS ON THE STARS AND BARS............see nothing else....................and be their pawns................good job..........


----------



## eagle1462010 (Jun 24, 2015)

Now another part of the history of the Civil War.............Enjoy..............


----------



## bodecea (Jun 24, 2015)

Mace said:


> Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.


No No No....let them mark themselves.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Jun 24, 2015)

HOLY SHIT................

DID YOU SEE THAT...............That youtube song just jumped off the screen and killed somebody.........

YIKES...............

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES................RUN AWAY RUN AWAY RUN AWAY NOT TO DIXIE LAND.................

BAN IT TOO............HELP........................


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> I don't think they've been banned from anything,  Camp. Are you sure?



It's not that South Carolina teams are "banned" from NCAA sports, it's that South Carolina cities are not chosen to host championship games or bowl games.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think they've been banned from anything,  Camp. Are you sure?
> ...



Oh. Even still, I think  both Clemson and USC generate enough revenue to counteract that. It sure helps here in Athens with UGA and the last time we hosted a major sporting event was the 1996 Olympics (the women's soccer part.)


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 24, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



What do you mean by "counteract" that?

They'd make a fuck-ton more revenue if they were allowed to host championship games.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Jun 24, 2015)

Tear this mountain down..................


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 24, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



They don't seem to care.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 24, 2015)

tinydancer said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...


yup


----------



## paulitician (Jun 25, 2015)

BlindBoo said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Racist white inbred redneck loons need to learn history. Wait, what? What i am i saying? Not sure an inbred redneck loon is capable of learning. Anyway, the Confederacy was never part of America. It was eliminated a 150 years ago. There is no valid justification for flying its flag on Government grounds. The Confederacy wasn't and isn't America. So just take the damn thing down.
> ...



The Confederacy doesn't exist. Hasn't for a 150 years. Is flag shouldn't fly on Government grounds. At this point, it only represents hate & bigotry. Time to take it down.


----------



## hangover (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Astute observers of my forum avatar may realize that I have the Confederate Battle Flag as my background. But only for a week. I so far have tried to stay out of this debate, but I draw the line here.* I also support Governor Nikki Haley's move to remove it from the capitol, but this is political correctness run amok. I don't care what views people have of it. *To me it represents a deeply flawed heritage, not racism, slavery, or exclusiveness. It's history, not a history I'm particularly proud of, but there it is.
> 
> The common misconceptions are that this flag represented racism and slavery, or was flown on slave ships or whatnot. Some say it was the national flag of the Confederacy. None of those things are true.
> 
> ...


The confederate flag is the flag flown by the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nation. That proves beyond any doubt that it represents bigotry and hate. And the cons are not going to convince anyone with any common sense, that the Klan and the Aryans vote for democrats.


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 25, 2015)

paulitician said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



What flag to fly on state grounds should be left up to the state.  If they want to fly a flag championed by white segregationist in 1962 or not, so be it.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 25, 2015)

Mace said:


> Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.


 
Well, you're probably more of an expert on child porn than the rest of us, so I'll defer to you on that score.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 25, 2015)

BlindBoo said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...



Well, many in the South are coming around. They may be ditching their racist redneck flag soon. Even they're beginning to realize it only represents the horrific abuse of African Americans by the South. We respect the Jewish People and don't fly the Nazi Flag on Government grounds. We should show our African American citizens the same respect.


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 25, 2015)

paulitician said:


> they're beginning to realize it *only represents* the horrific abuse of African Americans by the South



Only is too absolute.  Sound to colorless to be real.  Too some it represents their ancestors bravely (or stupidly) rushing headlong into a wall of fire and hot lead during battle.  The flag in SC represents SC's defiance to desegregation. 

The shooter didn't use a flag to kill anyone.


----------



## bendog (Jun 25, 2015)

BlindBoo said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > they're beginning to realize it *only represents* the horrific abuse of African Americans by the South
> ...


First, I agree with the distinction between an individual using the flag to symbolize something being none of my business.  But, I think your last sentence is the key.  The shooter didn't use the flag; his action really had nothing to do with the flag.  And, it may be true that his "grievances" against the black race may not be totally baseless.  A greater % of blacks may be involved in violent crimes against whites than whites are involved.  Maybe not, but at 2 a.m. when you have to go to a drug store for cough medicine or something, most of us are scared.

But the shooter lumped all blacks into the same boat of bad blacks.  This particular flag does represent resistance to ending systemic and legalized discrimination.  That's why, at this time and that place, that flag is pernicious.  And hopefully SC takes it down.


----------



## CowboyTed (Jun 25, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > aaronleland said:
> ...



But does help us figure out racist bigots from the rest of the population.


----------



## CowboyTed (Jun 25, 2015)

Pity he didn't come into that church waving that flag first...


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?



I'm going to answer this question. Because I'm growing increasingly disturbed by how far this Confederate Flag thing is in fact going.

None of them are, because the majority of them don't support slavery, I know, I live in the south, in one of the most "southern" of the southern states. That flag, from what I'm learning, represents more than just "slavery" it doesn't even represent slavery to them at all. It holds the same meaning to the south as the US flag holds for America, and both flags have equally treacherous pasts.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Gonna take weeks to get this tar and feathers out of my clothes.



Nevermind. The lengths at which people are taking to excise the confederate flag from our culture is a bit much. I agreed that removing it from the SC state capitol was a good move. But I will reassume elements of this argument.


----------



## Syriusly (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?
> ...



I would agree. 

I think that there has been far too much made about the flag- however, I think it is an issue that has been simmering for awhile.

As I mentioned before- I agree generally with your OP- and I agree most white Southerners are not racists and do not associate the flag with racism. However, I believe most black Southerners do associate the flag with racism- not because so much of the Confederacy- but because how the flag was coopted by the racists in the 1960's to oppose desegregation.

I get both sides- the side i do not get is the one represented by Roof- and that is the side that hugs the Confederate Flag because they are racists- and they associate the flag with white supremacy.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?
> ...



I understand what the flag means to many people in the south. But it means something else to a lot of other people, including many in the south - and the fact that it represents "heritage" to some doesn't negate the fact that it means "white power" to others. What we are seeing happen now is the same as we've seen with gay rights in the last decade - the tide is turning. The violence in Charleston is not the cause of the backlash against the flag, it's the finger on the scale that tips it - that backlash has been festering for a long time.

I have no problem with people flying the Confederate flag over their homes. I don't care if people want to wear t-shirts with Confederate flags on them. I listen to music by bands that use that flag in their imagery, and I watch movies that feature it prominently. The flag does not upset me personally, but my view does not override the views of others.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> What we are seeing happen now is the same as we've seen with gay rights in the last decade - the tide is turning.



To the point IMO, where a certain view of the confederacy is being systematically censored by one side of the debate. I can't buy confederate flags anymore at a major retailer like Wal Mart, I can't buy them on Amazon or eBay. I see it as a part of southern culture. Warner Bros. is taking the flag off General Lee's roof for pete's sakes. This is going too far. I'm equating it with soft censorship. I mean, what next? Will CBS start blurring out the flag on top down views of the General Lee Dukes of Hazzard reruns?

Yes, you can fly the flag, wear t-shirts and listen to bands who employ the Confederate Battle Flag in imagery, but when you deny people the choice (yeah like the gay rights debate) to buy what they want, like a Confederate Flag, essentially that is discrimination based on a belief that the flag represents pride and heritage rather than slavery or racism. Now these people are forced to buy such material from specialized retailers who will likely charge a greater price for such paraphernalia. I don't think that's fair.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > What we are seeing happen now is the same as we've seen with gay rights in the last decade - the tide is turning.
> ...



So what do you suggest? Should we deny stores the choice to decide what they want to sell?

No one has forced these companies to stop selling flag merchandise - they're making that business decision based on their own bottom lines. Walmart doesn't sell Nazi flags either - is that unfair to Neo-Nazis?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Should we deny stores the choice to decide what they want to sell?



No, but how is it fair to the customers? Just as an aside, it is interesting that _now_ we are defending a store's right not to sell offensive material.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Walmart doesn't sell Nazi flags either - is that unfair to Neo-Nazis?



Walmart is an exception to the fact. Amazon sells communist, Nazi, and ISIS paraphernalia, but somehow the Confederate Battle Flag is more offensive than any of those things, according to them at least.


----------



## Syriusly (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Should we deny stores the choice to decide what they want to sell?
> ...



Walmarts choice not to sell flags is an opportunity for some other business to sell flags.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Walmart doesn't sell Nazi flags either - is that unfair to Neo-Nazis?
> ...



I've heard that talking point a few times now, but I've tried searching Amazon for "Nazi flags" or "ISIS flags", and it returns no results.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Should we deny stores the choice to decide what they want to sell?
> ...



I have always defended the rights of stores to sell "offensive material".

"Fairness" doesn't exist.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



Because, they just now took them ALL down.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> "Fairness" doesn't exist.



Well, I would go at length to say I disagree, but we will save that for an appropriate gay marriage thread.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Wait - so they stopped selling Nazi and ISIS flags _along_ with stopping selling the Confederate flag? Doesn't that invalidate your above argument anyway?

Where are you getting your information about Amazon selling Nazi and ISIS flags?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > "Fairness" doesn't exist.
> ...



Perhaps I should have said "fairness" has no objective value, rather than that it doesn't exist. From my perspective, it's the same thing, though.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Doesn't that invalidate your argument anyway?



No, they didn't do it right off. They were still on sale when they took down the Confederate flags.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Where are you getting your information about Amazon selling Nazi and ISIS flags?



Well, the Nazi flag  was on sale as recently as yesterday. All of a sudden, they took this down too, it appears today according to the reviews:

Amazon.com 3 X5 NAZI SS Flag WWII German Germany Third 3rd Reich Hitler Patio Lawn Garden

Along with this one:






And this one was from Tuesday:






These were on sale the day they stopped selling Confederate flags.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't that invalidate your argument anyway?
> ...



Do you have anything to back this claim up, other than rumors?

I tried searching for Nazi and ISIS flags on Amazon _a couple of days ago_, immediately after the first time I heard someone make the claim you did - still no results.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Where are you getting your information about Amazon selling Nazi and ISIS flags?
> ...



I don't know what to tell you, but I searched on Tuesday, and found nothing. I even posted about it here - I don't remember what thread it was, though.

Either way, I don't see how it matters.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Either way, I don't see how it matters.



It doesn't anymore. lol. Resistance is futile.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Either way, I don't see how it matters.
> ...



Don't be a drama queen. No one is victimizing you. 

What Amazon chooses to sell is up to them, no matter whether or not you think it's "fair".

There are plenty of websites and stores that still sell Confederate flags (many of them sell Nazi flags, too), and no one is banning them.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Don't be a drama queen. No one is victimizing you.



I'm not. I just recognize a trend when I see one. 




theDoctorisIn said:


> There are plenty of websites and stores that still sell Confederate flags (many of them sell Nazi flags, too), and no one is banning them.



No, of course not, but it will be harder to do so. And I have a completely negative opinion of ISIS and the Nazis, so you'll forgive me if I state the opinion that those flags should be banned from sale here in the US.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be a drama queen. No one is victimizing you.
> ...



I disagree. We have free speech in this country, and that applies to flags.

I'm honestly a little thrown by the fact that you want to ban the Nazi flag, but think that stores voluntarily ceasing sales of Confederate flags somehow signifies an apocalyptic Borg future.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> I'm honestly a little thrown by the fact that you want to ban the Nazi flag, but think that stores voluntarily ceasing sales of Confederate flags somehow signifies an apocalyptic Borg future.



Oh, I don't know, because I know the actual philosophy behind those (the ISIS and Nazi) flags, perhaps? Civil War history is wrought with revisionism. Was it slavery or was it race? Was it even about slavery or race? 

People's choices are being limited, and what I see is political correctness run amok. Oh sure, lets make people run to private dealers to get their confederate flags, make them more conspicuous in the eyes of the PC culture.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> We have free speech in this country, and that applies to flags.



Well, I don't think all the big box retailers got that message. But as you pointed out that's their decision.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > We have free speech in this country, and that applies to flags.
> ...



As I have pointed out many times, the concept of "Free speech" applies to the government, not to private businesses. 

I can't support the government "banning" a flag, but I'll support the rights of businesses to choose _not_ to sell whatever they want.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



Try searching for "swastika".  They list them as "Buddhist" symbols, but I really doubt that everyone who buys one is Buddhist.

Speaking of which, how does your concept that other people's ideas of what my heritage symbol means should override mine coincide with the fact that the swastika has been around long before the Nazis, and means something totally different to other cultures?  Should they be forced to abandon their symbols due to the limited understanding and offendedness of others?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > I'm honestly a little thrown by the fact that you want to ban the Nazi flag, but think that stores voluntarily ceasing sales of Confederate flags somehow signifies an apocalyptic Borg future.
> ...



Do you know the "actual philosophy" behind the swastika?

It's an ancient symbol common to many religions around the world, going back 5,000 years. The "real" meaning of a symbol is _irrelevant _when it means something else entirely to most of the people.

What you describe as "PC culture" is just _American_ culture doing something that you personally don't approve of.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

Cecilie1200 said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Who has suggested that you should be "forced to abandon" the Confederate flag?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



Does the "actual philosophy" behind it matter, if people have decided to see it as a horribly offensive symbol of oppression?  You don't seem to think that's the case with the Confederate battle flag.  Either a symbol is what it is to those who bear it, or it is what those who hate it say it is.  You can't have it both ways.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

Cecilie1200 said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



You're really not getting it. Of course I can have it "both ways" - because _both ways_ are true, to different people.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...


Yes, but you want both ways to be true _to you_, depending on which is convenient for you at the moment.  They have a word for that:  hypocrisy.

If a swastika is more than what the Holocaust Museum sees it as, then the Confederate battle flag is more than what a bunch of outraged leftists see it as.  My heritage is as valid and valuable as anyone else's.


----------



## MaryL (Jun 25, 2015)

This flag was used by the confederacy, splitting hairs won't take away from that one iota.  Old Dix. The confederacy  was not the best of American history, they rebelled against the growing abolitionist movement. The Confederate stars and bars always meant treason , sedition,  treachery and just plain cussed stubborn rebellion to ME. I was always a bit insulted  that it was allowed to fly over any American state, city or place period since 1865.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

Cecilie1200 said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



What is it that you think my opinion on the Confederate flag is, exactly?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 25, 2015)

MaryL said:


> This flag was used by the confederacy, splitting hairs won't take away from that one iota.  Old Dix. The confederacy  was not the best of American history, they rebelled against the growing abolitionist movement. The Confederate stars and bars always meant treason , sedition,  treachery and just plain cussed stubborn rebellion to ME. I was always a bit insulted  that it was allowed to fly over any American state, city or place period since 1865.



Of course, the same could be said for the American flag.  Our Founders, all the way back to the Pilgrims, were noted for their "cussed stubborn rebellion", and they certainly did commit treason, sedition, and treachery . . . in the view of the British.

Americans historically are a contrary, stubborn lot.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 25, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



What is it you think you've conveyed?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 25, 2015)

Cecilie1200 said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



I know what I "conveyed", it's all in this thread. But your responses to me indicate to me that you seem to be a little lost.

Perhaps reading through the thread will help you out.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Do you know the "actual philosophy" behind the swastika?



Yeah I do. Peace, good luck, auspiciousness, well being.



theDoctorisIn said:


> It's an ancient symbol common to many religions around the world, going back 5,000 years. The "real" meaning of a symbol is _irrelevant _when it means something else entirely to most of the people.



I'm curious, why is everything "irrelevant" to you? The real meaning of a symbol means a great deal more to those with whom it originated than those with whom it didn't,  and whatever alternate meaning it is assigned by those outside of the origin is irrelevant. So, when the Army or Northern Virginia crafted that Confederate battle flag, they never intended for it to be a sign of slavery or racism. Period.

According to the historian John Coski, the flag was more a sacred symbol to southerners than one of white supremacy during reconstruction. That's what William Porcher Miles had in mind when he crafted the flag, it was intended to bear a sort of innate religious significance. I can't find any accounts where the flag was ever used as a symbol of oppression during or after the Civil War. It was a battle flag, nothing more, nothing less.

The meaning of a symbol can be misattributed, you know like the swastika. Once a symbol of luck, peace, and well being; it was perverted into one of murder, suffering, slavery, repression, genocide, and conquest. Likewise with the Confederate Battle Flag. A symbol of intended religious significance has been perverted into something representing slavery, racism, and oppression. See the pattern there?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> What you describe as "PC culture" is just _American_ culture doing something that you personally don't approve of.



No, it is a systematic purge of alternative, non conformist viewpoints. It is a systematic purge of something _certain people in society _don't approve of.


----------



## amrchaos (Jun 26, 2015)

Why not just ban all confederate "traitor" flags?  

Why does it take over 100 years for these Southern jackasses to get the point they lost and their 'way' was rejected?  No matter what they say their "way" was!!


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > What you describe as "PC culture" is just _American_ culture doing something that you personally don't approve of.
> ...



No, it's really not. You build yourself a conspiracy narrative that has no basis in reality.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

amrchaos said:


> Why not just ban all confederate "traitor" flags?



Because it isn't your right to ban anything, genius. And what gives you the idea that any of us who hold pride in such a flag happen to be traitors? Do you even know what the word means?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

amrchaos said:


> Why not just ban all confederate "traitor" flags?
> 
> Why does it take over 100 years for these Southern jackasses to get the point they lost and their 'way' was rejected?  No matter what they say their "way" was!!



Because this is the US.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> No, it's really not. You build yourself a conspiracy narrative that has no basis in reality.



You are entitled to believe what you wish. But calling me a conspiracy theorist isn't a very compelling argument from your end.


----------



## Contumacious (Jun 26, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > if you want to have one in a window or your yard
> ...




*YO DINGLE BERRY*

*THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO SECEDE*

*FURTHERMORE.*

*.... whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,*......


----------



## Camp (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> amrchaos said:
> 
> 
> > Why not just ban all confederate "traitor" flags?
> ...


Man were charging across a battlefield under the banner of a battle flag designed for a new country called the Confederate states and shooting and killing other men.who were fighting under a banner that represented the United States. The men who fought under the confederate flag had been citizens of the United States before they took up arms against them. That is what made them traitors. Pretty basic and simple. If taking up arms against your government isn't treason, what is?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know the "actual philosophy" behind the swastika?
> ...



You've missed about a hundred and fifty years of the history of that flag.

It wasn't until civil rights legislation was actually making headway in the mid 20th century that the Confederate flag regained any semblance of popularity - as a pretty clear anti-integration symbol.

That's when it was added to the Georgia flag, by the way - a couple years _after_ Brown v. B.O.E, and almost a hundred years after the civil war ended.

Still, though - that's beside the point. The meanings of symbols change, and so do the perspectives that people look at them.

More Americans think the Confederate flag represents _slavery_ and _racism_ than think it represents _heritage_ and all those other wonderful things. At this point, it seems that even most South Carolinians think that, by the stated opinion of the Republican governor and both Republican Senators.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > No, it's really not. You build yourself a conspiracy narrative that has no basis in reality.
> ...



I don't know how else to respond to your idea that there's some "systematic purge" going on other than to call it conspiracy nonsense.

Use your critical thinking, man.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



"Most Americans" is a bandwagon fallacy without substantive proof. People who weren't born down here in the south don't nor will ever understand the sentiment we show towards that flag. And presupposing the "slavery" and "racism" connotations upon it is in my view a convenient political invention.

You're only focusing on the post civil war interpretations of the flag, or the latter 50+ years. It was used as an "anti integration symbol" for the very reason the soldiers carried it into battle. It was a statement of rebellion. But that wasn't the purpose nor meaning of the flag. That constituted a complete bastardization of it. 



theDoctorisIn said:


> At this point, it seems that even most South Carolinians think that, by the stated opinion of the Republican governor and both Republican Senators.



A supposition. You have only the words of two politicians amongst an entire legislature.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> Use your critical thinking, man.



Well, I was. But somehow my "critical thinking" isn't. Not much more I can do, friend.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

Uh, how come this thread was moved? The whole issue of the Confederate Flag is historical, yet has current political ramifications and manifestations. Wait, don't answer that.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

Camp said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > amrchaos said:
> ...



Did you even read what I wrote?


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> "Most Americans" is a bandwagon fallacy without substantive proof. People who weren't born down here in the south don't nor will ever understand the sentiment we show towards that flag. And presupposing the "slavery" and "racism" connotations upon it is in my view a convenient political invention.
> 
> You're only focusing on the post civil war interpretations of the flag. It was used as an "anti integration symbol" for the very reason the soldiers carried it into battle. It was a statement of rebellion. But that wasn't the purpose nor the meaning of the flag.



It would be a "bandwagon fallacy" if I used the fact that the more Americans have negative opinions of the Confederate flag than positive to prove that it was itself objectively "bad". I think you're using the term wrong. That data is based on a number of polls:

Positive Reaction to the Confederate Flag Pew Research Center

9% of Americans have a positive reaction to the Confederate flag, versus 30% who have a negative reaction.

As for the rest, my point, as I've tried to make as clear as possible, is that the "purpose and meaning" of a symbol _doesn't matter_ if to most people, the symbol has been re-appropriated to represent something else.



> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, it seems that even most South Carolinians think that, by the stated opinion of the Republican governor and both Republican Senators.
> ...



*3* politicians - the three highest elected offices in the state, to be specific.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Uh, how come this thread was moved? The whole issue of the Confederate Flag is historical, yet has current political ramifications and manifestations. Wait, don't answer that.



This thread specifically is focused on the _history_ of the flag, is it not?

I wasn't the mod who moved the thread, but I agree with the decision. Don't think of threads being moved as punitive.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post



I'd be interested in seeing a current poll on that same question.

Even so, from your link:



> Just 30.5 percent of South Carolinians described their feelings toward the flag as positive; 45 percent had negative feelings about it.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> *3* politicians - the three highest elected offices in the state, to be specific.



Of whom you assume speak for all of their constituents. Given how we live in an atmosphere where that is rarely the case, isn't that a bit...presumptive?



theDoctorisIn said:


> It would be a "bandwagon fallacy" if I used the fact that the more Americans have negative opinions of the Confederate flag than positive to prove that it was itself objectively "bad". I think you're using the term wrong. That data is based on a number of polls:
> 
> Positive Reaction to the Confederate Flag Pew Research Center



If we went solely based on your black and white (no pun intended) interpretation of that Pew Poll, I would be singing mea culpas right now. But I was reading that poll the moment you pinged me with your response.

"*A 58%-majority say they have neither a positive or negative reaction when seeing the Confederate flag.* Not surprisingly, there are disparate reactions to the Civil War flag of the South among different demographic groups. Far more African Americans than whites have a negative reaction to the Confederate flag (41% to 29%). *Still, about as many blacks have no reaction (45%) as a negative reaction to the Confederate flag."*

To me, "most Americans" still is and will remain a bandwagon fallacy. Because at that point in time, most people didn't care.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post
> ...



Another quote just below it:



> And yet, plenty of people who don't had a positive feelings about it and even some who had negative ones said the flag should stay.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > *3* politicians - the three highest elected offices in the state, to be specific.
> ...



I didn't say "*most*", I said "*more*". And seriously, that's not what the term _bandwagon fallacy_ means.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> This thread specifically is focused on the _history_ of the flag, is it not?



No, it was also meant to address the current political issues surrounding it, as of this day and age. But discussing moderator actions on the open forums is a no-no. I will cease my protests at once.


----------



## theDoctorisIn (Jun 26, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



I know. Polls are weird like that.

I would put some money on the numbers being significantly different now, though. I'm sure we'll see some newer poll numbers specific to SC soon - we're already seeing a significant change nationally - latest polls show a two-thirds majority of Americans _against_ the flag being displayed on government property.

https://cdn.americanprogressaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/NationalGunPoll062115-Results.pdf


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> And seriously, that's not what the term _bandwagon fallacy_ means.



The meaning is quite simple:

It is a fallacy in which the assertion is deemed by the arguer  as valid because a supposed "majority" of people support it. 

I know exactly what it means, and we shan't parse words. I'd like to keep this discussion as lively and relevant as possible.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

theDoctorisIn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



That specific point is conceded.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 26, 2015)

I am rather enjoying this debate, especially with you, Doc. This is good mental exercise.


----------

