# Are we free



## Aponi (Dec 25, 2018)

A freind of mine posted a thread on face book about being free.
And it was intresting to me.
We are not free in the sense of true freedom .
From the time of cave men banding together in loose society's we have had to conform to rules mortality and laws tax etc. So we are not really free in the totality of the word.

Yet Americans have a lot of freedoms and rights not being seen in other nations.

While we have become to a degree a socialist society we still are far from a true socialist nation which is just a hooe skip and a jump from a communist SOCIETY.

After we loose certain freedoms and rights they are close to impossible to get back with the spilling of blood in mass.

We have socialist like cortez hillary and sanders along with many others who would take more and more freedoms from us given the chance.


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## sparky (Dec 25, 2018)

I used to think so, until 9/11.....~S~


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## Aponi (Dec 25, 2018)

sparky said:


> I used to think so, until 9/11.....~S~


911 changed our nation and opnions a great deal no doubt


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## MarathonMike (Dec 25, 2018)

There are different types of freedom even as a US citizen which accords you more political and religious freedoms than nearly any other country on Earth.

For example, if you have extreme indebtedness you are not free at all. You are in a sense a slave to your debt. 

Another example if you have severe health problems then you are not free to explore the wilderness or other pursuits requiring physical strength and stamina.

So perhaps the most free people in the world might be those individuals who live on their own, off the grid in Alaska. They have political freedom, financial freedom and physical freedom.


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## sparky (Dec 25, 2018)

what is freedom to you folks?

~S~


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## playtime (Dec 25, 2018)

we are only under the illusion of 'freedom'.   if martial law was ever imposed, we will know exactly how free we really are.


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## Skylar (Dec 26, 2018)

Aponi said:


> A freind of mine posted a thread on face book about being free.
> And it was intresting to me.
> We are not free in the sense of true freedom .
> From the time of cave men banding together in loose society's we have had to conform to rules mortality and laws tax etc. So we are not really free in the totality of the word.
> ...



What do you consider a 'true socialist nation'? Can you give us a few modern day examples? For example, is Canada a 'true socialist nation'? How about Sweden?


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## Mr Natural (Dec 26, 2018)

What is it you want to do but can't?


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## Skylar (Dec 26, 2018)

playtime said:


> we are only under the illusion of 'freedom'.   if martial law was ever imposed, we will know exactly how free we really are.



Freedom is always situational, with freedom existing while it is practiced. We're always able to do what we want _until we can't. 
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The greatest degree of freedom is found in a balance of powers. As any group or entity that possesses disproportionate power will strip freedom from those they have power over.


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## Votto (Dec 26, 2018)

Aponi said:


> A freind of mine posted a thread on face book about being free.
> And it was intresting to me.
> We are not free in the sense of true freedom .
> From the time of cave men banding together in loose society's we have had to conform to rules mortality and laws tax etc. So we are not really free in the totality of the word.
> ...



We are not free, we are all slaves.

The issue is, who do you serve?  Is it other people, God, or yourself?

The better question is, what provides more satisfaction?


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## pismoe (Dec 26, 2018)

sparky said:


> I used to think so, until 9/11.....~S~


-----------------------------------------back in the mid 60s i realized we weren't free.   And then i saw more Freedom disappear in the 70s - 80s and continue to lose Freedoms up to this day .  Things like mandatory helmet laws started in the 60s and then seat belt laws and anti smoking laws even on a Business owners Private Property .


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## Votto (Dec 26, 2018)

pismoe said:


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We are not free but we crave it.

It seems to me that our freedom is the freedom on choosing who or what to love and serve.

In that sense, we are free.


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## boedicca (Dec 26, 2018)

Given that the average middle class person spends over 50% of his income on taxes, the answer is:  No.  In the most meaningful sense, we are no longer free.

A List Of 97 Taxes Americans Pay Every Year


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## Skylar (Dec 26, 2018)

Votto said:


> Aponi said:
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Which God? All too often, service to 'god' is just service to other men who use a religion as a leash.


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## Votto (Dec 26, 2018)

Skylar said:


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## Skylar (Dec 26, 2018)

Votto said:


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Yeah, that doesn't actually answer my question.

Much of history demonstrates that religion is a leash to control people. It dictates behavior, interaction, heirarchy. And often requires the individual to cede their own capacity for moral reasoning to a central authority.

That's rarely freedom.


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## pismoe (Dec 26, 2018)

Skylar said:


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----------------------------------  Most religion is voluntary at least in Christendom that i am aware of Skylar .    Should be no ones business what a person voluntarily decide to do in freely practiced legal religion  Skylar .


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## Skylar (Dec 26, 2018)

pismoe said:


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And religious is voluntary *today*....as its been balanced by secular power. For almost all of Christianity's history.....its been violently enforced. As have most religions. Islam wasn't particularly voluntary either. As the residents of Jericho how 'voluntary' Judaism was.

Looking to religion as a source of 'freedom' is a fool's errand. Most religion has nothing to do with 'freedom'. But the ceding of it. Its about centralizing control and internalization of methods of control. Most commonly through fear or violence. 

Where a small group of people, usually men, use a conception of god to compel you to do what they tell you to do.

That's not 'freedom'. Thats the opposite of freedom.


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## pismoe (Dec 26, 2018)

Skylar said:


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-----------------------------   ME , i'm only concerned with today and today all Christianity in the USA and most of the Western World is voluntary as far as i know .   And of course that voluntary aspect doesn't apply to all as some of 'islam'  kills / murders  back sliders or apostates Skylar .


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## pismoe (Dec 26, 2018)

and besides , my only concern is with Rights and Freedoms are when they are reduced or taken away by the State because that is always done at the Barrel of a GUN .


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## danielpalos (Dec 26, 2018)

Aponi said:


> A freind of mine posted a thread on face book about being free.
> And it was intresting to me.
> We are not free in the sense of true freedom .
> From the time of cave men banding together in loose society's we have had to conform to rules mortality and laws tax etc. So we are not really free in the totality of the word.
> ...


i offer free full body massage with happy ending simply for the sake of gender relations in modern times.   does that count?


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## anotherlife (Dec 26, 2018)

sparky said:


> I used to think so, until 9/11.....~S~


Which is why 911 was so carefully arranged.


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## Aponi (Dec 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


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Im sure the guys will love you


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## Aponi (Dec 26, 2018)

Skylar said:


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I was not spcific about god yes your correct its the one you belive in


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## Skylar (Dec 26, 2018)

pismoe said:


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Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

With the voluntary nature of religion today being an excellent demonstration of my point regarding a balancing of powers. When something like religion is given the authority to violently enforce its tenets....it does. For centuries on end at the cost of millions upon millions of lives. With entire civilizations destroyed and continents brought under its authoritarian heel.

When something like religion is balanced against another source of power......like say, secular authorities, religion relinquishes its use of mutilation, murder, torture, ethnic cleansing, rape, and conquest as a means of enforcing its tenets.

Freedom is found in the balancing of concentrations of power against one another. Creating a leviathan for the leviathan.

Its one of the reasons why today is remarkably free in comparison to the past.


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## Skylar (Dec 26, 2018)

pismoe said:


> and besides , my only concern is with Rights and Freedoms are when they are reduced or taken away by the State because that is always done at the Barrel of a GUN .



Freedom is derived on multiple fronts. As lacking a leviathan like the State, you merely diversify and increase the violence. One of the leading causes of death in a stateless society is violence. With the State acting as a third party without investment in personal violence between two feuding individuals.

Without that, violence levels increase dramatically. And with it, a lot of practical freedom.


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## playtime (Dec 26, 2018)

Skylar said:


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come jan. 3, the dotard in the whitehouse will not like having them thar checks & balances being imposed on his tantrum inducing self.  tutt tutt,  little donny is already whining about 'presidential harassment' .   no tinkle boy, it's called oversight & there's gonna be a spotlight on you coming from all committees.


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## Aponi (Dec 26, 2018)

playtime said:


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Whats that got to do with anything


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## playtime (Dec 26, 2018)

Aponi said:


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trump will no longer be free to be the autocrat he so desperately wants to be.i picked up where the poster i replied to left off.  Do you know how to follow a thread?


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## fncceo (Dec 26, 2018)

More free than most.  Less free than we could be.

There will always be those to seek to make us less free.  Sometimes they will use force.  Often they will use what we consider legitimate means.  Most often, they will get us to believe they are removing our freedom for our own good.

We are often presented with the false dichotomy, 'more freedom equals less security'.   A dichotomy that we have come to accept as fact because to challenge it would be upsetting the status quo.


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## playtime (Dec 26, 2018)

fncceo said:


> More free than most.  Less free than we could be.
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> There will always be those to seek to make us less free.  Sometimes they will use force.  Often they will use what we consider legitimate means.  Most often, they will get us to believe they are removing our freedom for our own good.
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> We are often presented with the false dichotomy, 'more freedom equals less security'.   A dichotomy that we have come to accept as fact because to challenge it would be upsetting the status quo.



‘They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.’ ~ ben franklin.


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## fncceo (Dec 26, 2018)

playtime said:


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Like many wise sayings.  We can acknowledge their wisdom while completely failing to act on it.

The term autocrat has become to mean something terrible and authoritarian.

But, I look forward to the day when every person on earth is an autocrat in the literal sense of the word.


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## playtime (Dec 26, 2018)

fncceo said:


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i have a sense of what you are trying to convey... i take it you are  a libertarian in the literal sense of that word.  when i say autocrat -  i most definitely mean the contemporary definition.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 26, 2018)

MarathonMike said:


> There are different types of freedom even as a US citizen which accords you more political and religious freedoms than nearly any other country on Earth.
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> For example, if you have extreme indebtedness you are not free at all. You are in a sense a slave to your debt.
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As someone living off-grid in Alaska, I do have lots of freedom.  Most important, I have the freedom to live, or die, based on my own work.  That's a lot of freedom, for sure, and I wouldn't change it for anything.  But I still have to pay taxes, buy groceries, fix or replace machinery and equipment, etc.


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## danielpalos (Dec 26, 2018)

Aponi said:


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are the women, too chicken?


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## MarathonMike (Dec 26, 2018)

gallantwarrior said:


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That's very impressive. But What do you do if you get sick or injured? Also what do you do for electricity and internet?


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## tycho1572 (Dec 26, 2018)

Aponi said:


> A freind of mine posted a thread on face book about being free.
> And it was intresting to me.
> We are not free in the sense of true freedom .
> From the time of cave men banding together in loose society's we have had to conform to rules mortality and laws tax etc. So we are not really free in the totality of the word.
> ...


Americans have much more freedom than democrats like. 

Democrats are always looking for ways to limit our freedoms. They want to limit our speech, ability to own guns, ability to stop people from illegally entering our country, etc...etc... etc....

While democrat politicians ignore the problems they’ve caused in large cities, they continue to insist they have the best ideas.


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## Karl Rand (Dec 26, 2018)

gallantwarrior said:


> MarathonMike said:
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So, Galt’s Gulch is in Alaska?


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## Moonglow (Dec 26, 2018)

I am so free that the cops tell me they need to protect me from myself...


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## Moonglow (Dec 26, 2018)

We are as free as our masters allow us to be..


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## Karl Rand (Dec 26, 2018)

Putting aside for now the US obsession any small degree of ‘socialism’ will necessarily trigger the descent into communism there’s one real threat to freedom you’re all missing.
The advance of artificial intelligence and autonomous genetic algorithm programming is unleashing a force that threatens the survival of our species more than our own stupid mistakes do.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 27, 2018)

MarathonMike said:


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Solar powered in the summer, generator in the winter, lantern to save batters during bad weather. Heat primarily with wood but keep a propane stove on a thermostat to keep the house above freezing when I can't be there. I have wifi and my laptop.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 27, 2018)

Karl Rand said:


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Only if your willing to invest sweat equity.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 27, 2018)

Karl Rand said:


> Putting aside for now the US obsession any small degree of ‘socialism’ will necessarily trigger the descent into communism there’s one real threat to freedom you’re all missing.
> The advance of artificial intelligence and autonomous genetic algorithm programming is unleashing a force that threatens the survival of our species more than our own stupid mistakes do.


Not all of us. Off grid and learning"old" ways serves to hedge some bets and free you from too much reliance on technology.


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## MarathonMike (Dec 27, 2018)

gallantwarrior said:


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And do you provide for all your food by hunting and growing things? I'd imagine you have to get some things from a store every once in awhile.


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## anotherlife (Dec 28, 2018)

Aponi said:


> A freind of mine posted a thread on face book about being free.
> And it was intresting to me.
> We are not free in the sense of true freedom .
> From the time of cave men banding together in loose society's we have had to conform to rules mortality and laws tax etc. So we are not really free in the totality of the word.
> ...



This is a very interesting problem!  

I think if we ask most people what they think freedom is, they think in terms of criminal law.  

Real freedom however is in financial law.  And now, in the 21st century, first time ever, banks have traded away their banking secrecy for a little unconditional overwriting of every bad loan by the government.  

Therefore the 21st century is when freedom is completely eliminated, worldwide.  Previously only totalitarian countries could try this, like the Soviet Union, but they all failed to completely eliminate all freedom.  In the 21st century, the western world has fully achieved it. 

So if you are hunting for freedom, your only chances are in the most corrupt third world countries, typically Africa, where they can't even build infrastructure.  It is their lack of infrastructure that protects freedom there, nothing else is left in the world.


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## anotherlife (Dec 28, 2018)

Votto said:


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No because Galatians 5:1 already ensures this question: 
" For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. ". 

So personal satisfaction turns out to be a direction that is opposite to freedom.


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## anotherlife (Dec 28, 2018)

Skylar said:


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Depends what you are thinking during your service.


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## Aponi (Dec 28, 2018)

gallantwarrior said:


> Karl Rand said:
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## JustAnotherNut (Dec 28, 2018)

Skylar said:


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Actually you are confusing 'Religion' with  Christianity.  They are truly 2 very different things. 

Although many use Christians and their beliefs, to further empower their own lust for power & control ....all in the name of God.


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## Skylar (Dec 30, 2018)

JustAnotherNut said:


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Then lets look at Islam too. Between the two we've got half the world's population and about 2000 years of demonstrations.


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