# Steinmeier Deal Sparks Protests in Ukraine, Praise in Moscow



## Penelope (Oct 4, 2019)

_This story originated in VOA’s Ukrainian Service. Some information is from Reuters and AP._

WASHINGTON — The Ukrainian president’s support for a deal with pro-Russian rebels that would introduce a special status for Ukraine’s breakaway regions drew both outrage and praise across the nation Wednesday.

According to guidelines of the so-called Steinmeier Formula, which was signed late Tuesday in Kyiv, Russians, Ukrainians and European mediators have pledged to hold local elections in Ukraine’s rebel-held east, where a grinding five-year war between the separatists and Ukrainian troops has killed more than 13,000 people since 2014.
Steinmeier Deal Sparks Protests in Ukraine, Praise in Moscow
----------------------------------------
This is what Putin wants also a civil war in the US, tramp is playing Putin wishes.  First by instilling Tillerson as SOS after Exxon made a huge deal with Russia.  What does Putin have over tramp??


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Why does Putin want civil war? Who toppled the legitimate government in Ukraine, Obama or Putin? 
We don´t want your fucking wars here, Ubumu and Phrump. Fuck off. Den Haag now for those suckers.


----------



## Olde Europe (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> Why does Putin want civil war? Who toppled the legitimate government in Ukraine, Obama or Putin?
> We don´t want your fucking wars here, Ubumu and Phrump. Fuck off. Den Haag now for those suckers.



And here I thought, it were Ukrainians who got rid of Putin's monumentally corrupt, self-enriching puppet in Kyiv, Yanukovych.  With a little help from Brussels and Washington, certainly.  But, whatever you might think of Brussels and Washington, Ukraine sure is better off without that thieving goon, no?

I also agree, the efforts to integrate Ukraine in the EU, including security cooperation, and maybe later into NATO, was stupidity on epic proportions, and guaranteed to spark Russian counter-measures.  The form these took - annexing the Crimea and invading the Russian-dominated east of Ukraine, is pretty much the option Putin had to prevent Ukraine's move into the Western / NATO camp, after several warnings went unheeded.  And what the heck were these goofs thinking, creating a direct border between NATO and Russia?  So, you aren't entirely wrong to blame these moves on the West, and the U.S. in particular.  On the other hand, Putin's stated aim to restore Russia to it's former USSR greatness also doesn't inspire much confidence that the borders between the blocks in Eastern Europe are being respected. 

The point is, there needs to be a negotiated solution now, one that lets Ukraine out of both sides' grip, ends that proxy war, and respects Russia's security interests.  The "Steinmeier formula" tentatively seems to move into that direction, and Zelensky appears to have understood what's necessary to put his nation together and onto its feet again.  So, I don't quite understand what has you spitting venom now.


----------



## Oddball (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> Why does Putin want civil war? *Who toppled the legitimate government in Ukraine, Obama or Putin? *
> We don´t want your fucking wars here, Ubumu and Phrump. Fuck off. Den Haag now for those suckers.


The way I hear it, there was an election last April....Seems the winner of that election is an anti-establishment type, who has said that he's going to drain Ukraine's swamp.

Certainly casts the situation in a different light, don't ya think?


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Olde Europe said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Putin want civil war? Who toppled the legitimate government in Ukraine, Obama or Putin?
> ...


At first, "Euromaidan" protesters didn´t topple the government, they just demonstrated. Nazi hordes did.






Second, Russia is not concerned when a country does business with western countries. Russia is concerned when these countries (by proxy) try to isolate a country from Russia.
Ukraine is not better off today.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Oddball said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Putin want civil war? *Who toppled the legitimate government in Ukraine, Obama or Putin? *
> ...


You Trump disciples will never get it but the swamp is not going to drain the swamp.


----------



## Oddball (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


I'm just reporting on what I've heard about the situation....Have any evidence to the contrary?


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Oddball said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...


Yes, their president won the elections with jokes and we can assume his actions are also just jokes.


----------



## sparky (Oct 4, 2019)

I can't quite connect what's going on here, anyone gotta cliff notes version?

~S~


----------



## Oddball (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


So there was a legit election that a legit candidate won, rather than your silly claim that their gubmint was "toppled".

And now it seems he's willing to work with Trump, in order to get to the bottom of some seriously shady dealings involving BILLIONS of US taxpayer loot.

I'm failing to see the problem with that.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Oddball said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...


Wrong. All elections after the naziputsch are actually illegitimate and void.


----------



## sparky (Oct 4, 2019)

Oddball said:


> So there was a legit election that a legit candidate won



Oh _puuUUUuulease _Odd one...wtf on this rock has that occurred in the last generation?  ~S~


----------



## Olde Europe (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> At first, "Euromaidan" protesters didn´t topple the government, they just demonstrated. Nazi hordes did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's just dumb.  A few dozen Nazis among tens of thousands of protesters toppled the government.  Really, that's what you want to go with?

As to "isolate", you are merely restating, in simplistic terms, my argument.

Finally, I didn't say Ukraine is better off now - merely that not being governed by a corrupt puppet is better than being governed by one.  Was that too hard to grasp?  Is your spluttering apoplexy by now on such a level, you couldn't even see that I am in part on your side of the argument?

Finally, I still don't understand, and didn't get an answer, why you are spitting venom now.  For now at least, Moscow seems pleased, and Zelensky seems to support the deal, so things appear to be moving towards reconciliation, and an end of the warfare might be in sight.  So, what is it, hoping it isn't just habitual by now?


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Olde Europe said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > At first, "Euromaidan" protesters didn´t topple the government, they just demonstrated. Nazi hordes did.
> ...


You are arguing like a father to his son but you argue on facts that you self invented.


----------



## Oddball (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


What the fuck are you blabbering about?


----------



## Oddball (Oct 4, 2019)

sparky said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > So there was a legit election that a legit candidate won
> ...


Well, there was Brexit...Then there was Trump....Now an out-of-left-field candidate in Ukraine.

I know patterns when I see them.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Oddball said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...


It is evident that you have no idea about what happened in Ukraine.


----------



## Oddball (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


Oh, but I do....I just don't automatically take the commonly accepted narratives of what happened...I gather lots of information and draw my own conclusions.

You do realize there's a common thread weaving through Brexit supporters, Trump voters, and Zelensky supporters, right?

*NAZIS!!!
*
Isn't that conveeeeeenient?


----------



## Olde Europe (Oct 4, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> You are arguing like a father to his son but you argue on facts that you self invented.



Gawd.  Posting a pic from "fakepics.files.wordpress.com" - no kidding - you accuse me of inventing facts?


Look, if you want to run with Putin's propaganda - Nazis have toppled the Ukrainian government - have at it.  It just disqualifies you as a debater, and in the same way as those who merely regurgitate Washington's propaganda.  Still, that's your prerogative.

You appear actually to care for Ukrainians.  If true, more power to you.  Then you should also see that Nazis toppling the government would be a guarantee that no more elections will happen, and Jews and gays vanish from the streets, no?  In the end, you are belittling and besmirching what Ukrainians have accomplished on the Maidan - ugly scenes and many more dead than I thought possible, granted.  A population getting rid of a thieving, corrupt autocrat, that is a good thing.  If you can't admit that, you are plainly gone off to some scurrilous fantasy-land.  It doesn't mean what comes thereafter is necessarily better, and political developments will somehow all sail smoothly under a lucky star.  It just means, they got rid of a crook.

No one knows at the time whether the new agreement will actually be implemented.  As it stands - separating troops, Russian troops out of Ukraine, holding free and fair elections so that the folks in the Donbas get a say, under international supervision, most of all finally ending hostilities - all that looks like a lot of good things for the war-torn region.  Again, whether it'll work out, no idea.  Worth working for it it unambiguously is, though.  Trumpistan didn't even have a seat at the table, and you spitting venom on this occasion I still don't understand.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 4, 2019)

Olde Europe said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > You are arguing like a father to his son but you argue on facts that you self invented.
> ...


I didn´t your trash as your first sentence is already a baseless accusation.


----------



## ESay (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> It is evident that you have no idea about what happened in Ukraine.


It is you in the first turn who haven't got the idea. You are just parroting the same silly stuff over and over again.


----------



## peach174 (Oct 5, 2019)

He needs to realize that not everything posted on the internet is true and needs to be looked up and investigated from reliable sources.
Many people around the world make this mistake about misinformation being spread.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 5, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > It is evident that you have no idea about what happened in Ukraine.
> ...


It was even in our government TV.

ZDF-Nachrichten zur Ukraine - mit Hakenkreuz und SS-Rune

The one parroting is you. What ever they in Washington say is your ultimate truth, or?


----------



## ESay (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


 I have no idea what was in your government TV. And I have no idea what is written in your German-speaking link. But what I do have idea is about you being clueless and ridiculous.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 5, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


You have no idea. That was my point.


----------



## ESay (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


I am always amused when a foreigner tries to educate me about my country. Mind your own business, dude.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 5, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


You´re coming to our continent, destroy it and then tell us to mind our own business?


----------



## ESay (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


It is cool to hear from a German about destroying the continent. 
We have always been at this continent. Are geography and history forbidden in German schools?


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 5, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


You even descend from this continent. If you want wall, tell Trump to build it. We don´t want it.


----------



## ESay (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


Wall? With Russia? Germany doesn't have a direct border with Russia. So, no worries.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 5, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


Doesn´t matter. We don´t want and need this cold war shit.


----------



## ESay (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


I am sorry dude, but a bromance between Germany and Russia ends bad for Eastern Europe. We should do our best to not allow this to happen. The advantage is that this goal coincides with the US interests if it wants to be global power in the future.


----------



## peach174 (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...




I agree with that.
America should stay out of other government's affairs unless a countries actions and affairs directly does harm to our country.
If other countries want their social democracy programs let then go broke alone without American's money for assistance.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 5, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


You missed the fact that Eastern Europe fares badly and it can´t get worse. Plus, your constant intervention contributes to that fact. Washington´s goals have nothing to do with geostrategy, politics or humanism. It is all about destruction, where ever Uncle Sam leaves, black smoke goes up.


----------



## ESay (Oct 5, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


You realize that I am not an American, right?


----------



## ESay (Oct 6, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> You missed the fact that Eastern Europe fares badly and it can´t get worse.


Yes, East Europeans arent too bright people, usually. Though, Poland was once a major European country. So, who knows?


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


So?


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > You missed the fact that Eastern Europe fares badly and it can´t get worse.
> ...


"Poland" actually never really existed.


----------



## ESay (Oct 6, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


Yeah, sure
File:Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 1582.PNG - Wikimedia Commons

Germany also never existed until the 19th century, btw.


----------



## ESay (Oct 6, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


I don't understand what your passage about constant intervention means then.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


We are the successor of the Roman Empire. So if your Commonwealth is Poland...


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


Meddling. Maybe you are some Eastern European who lives in fear of Russia.


----------



## ESay (Oct 6, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


The Commonwealth has far more in common with contemporary Poland, than Germany with RE. It will be more correctly to say that you are the successor of those who destroyed the Empire.


----------



## ESay (Oct 6, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


By meddling you mean demands about sanctions and cutting off ties with Russia? Or what?


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


American citizens should learn how badly Eastern Europe really sucks, as you won´t tell them. Average wages 2014:


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


Germany is most important country in Europe. You stand by in envy as we make great stuff and have FUN.


----------



## ESay (Oct 6, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


Yes, the most important. And you have great achievements in many fields. Of course I would want my nation to be such intellectual and disciplined as the Germans are. You can call that envy if you want.


----------



## Bleipriester (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


Where are you from then?


----------



## ESay (Oct 6, 2019)

Bleipriester said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


Ukraine.


----------



## Olde Europe (Oct 6, 2019)

ESay said:


> Yes, the most important. And you have great achievements in many fields. Of course I would want my nation to be such intellectual and disciplined as the Germans are. You can call that envy if you want.



Admiring intellectual achievements has nothing to do with envy, which again is no justifiable sentiment regarding Germany to begin with.  Anyway, thinking of contemporary Germany, here's what you (also) need to keep in mind so as to get the complete picture:






What's your take on the "Steinmeier deal"?


----------



## Stratford57 (Oct 7, 2019)

Oddball said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Putin want civil war? *Who toppled the legitimate government in Ukraine, Obama or Putin? *
> ...


Zelensky can't drain the Ukrainian swamp just because the person who brought him to power (oligarch Kolomoysky) *is a big part of Ukrainian swamp* and keeps making huge money on the civil war in Donbass (as well as another Ukrainian oligarch ex-president Poroshenko). In case the war stops a lot of the truth about it will come out and a lot of Ukrainian top politicians will be judged for their numerous war crimes.

*Since Obama/Soros 2014 coup the main Ukrainian ideology is hate to Russia.* Those who protest against signing of the agreement (which is just a first small step to the peace in Ukraine) in Kiev are yelling that the peace in Donbass is equal to betraying Ukraine. And they are right in a way because  everything Ukraine is and meant to be is a pawn to hurt Russia in the dirty and bloody Soros&Co's hands. Ukraine has been producing nothing but hate to Russia (who have the same blood!) and Nazis.

The Guardian:
Kiev's protesters: Ukraine uprising was no neo-Nazi power-grab

******
*WaPo:*

Italy's Interior Minister and deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini :

Q. You said that *Russia had a right to annex Crimea?*

A. There was a referendum.

Q. It was a fake referendum.

A. [That is your] point of view. . . . There was a referendum, and 90 percent of the people voted for the return of Crimea to the Russian Federation.

Q. What kind of referendum was it with Russian soldiers there?

A. Compare it to the *fake revolution in Ukraine, which was a pseudo-revolution funded by foreign powers* — similar to the Arab Spring revolutions. There are some historically Russian zones with Russian culture and traditions which legitimately belong to the Russian Federation.

*https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/italy-has-done-a-lot--maybe-too-much/2018/07/19/dc81a292-8acf-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.411339e69a98*


----------



## ESay (Oct 7, 2019)

Olde Europe said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the most important. And you have great achievements in many fields. Of course I would want my nation to be such intellectual and disciplined as the Germans are. You can call that envy if you want.
> ...


Actually it isnt Steinmeier deal. It is a plan how to implement some parts of the Minsk agreements. There is nothing new in it. 
I think that the Minsk agreements should be implemented. At least there will be a chance to integrate these territories in the future.


----------



## Oddball (Oct 7, 2019)

Stratford57 said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Bleipriester said:
> ...


Splains to me why he might want to hook up with Trump.


----------



## Olde Europe (Oct 7, 2019)

ESay said:


> Actually it isnt Steinmeier deal. It is a plan how to implement some parts of the Minsk agreements. There is nothing new in it.
> I think that the Minsk agreements should be implemented. At least there will be a chance to integrate these territories in the future.



That would confirm it's just way to get the involved parties to gather at the table and to talk, and a roadmap to implement the Minsk Agreements.  You seem mostly unconcerned about suspicions it's actually a "Putin formula" - and accusations it's one possibly resulting not just in some form of autonomy for the heavily Russian-speaking regions in the east, but outright secession.  Is that so?


----------



## Stratford57 (Oct 7, 2019)

Olde Europe said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it isnt Steinmeier deal. It is a plan how to implement some parts of the Minsk agreements. There is nothing new in it.
> ...


Steinmeier is a German president. What does he have to do with Putin? You liberals seem to see Putin at every corner just like your queen Pelosi.

Sept 28, Lavrov: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has said today regarding the scandal over the telephone conversation between US President Trump and President of Ukraine Zelensky that she thinks Russia “has a hand in this.” *I believe this is paranoia,* very obviously so.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s remarks and answers to media questions following the High-Level Week of the 74th Session of the UN General Assembly, New York, September 27, 2019

Frank-Walter Steinmeier - Wikipedia


----------



## Olde Europe (Oct 7, 2019)

Stratford57 said:


> Steinmeier is a German president. What does he have to do with Putin? You liberals seem to see Putin at every corner just like your queen Pelosi.
> 
> Sept 28, Lavrov: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has said today regarding the scandal over the telephone conversation between US President Trump and President of Ukraine Zelensky that she thinks Russia “has a hand in this.” *I believe this is paranoia,* very obviously so.
> 
> ...



Why don't you get up to speed on the matter under discussion in this thread before you bleat?


----------



## Baron (Oct 7, 2019)

Penelope said:


> _This story originated in VOA’s Ukrainian Service. Some information is from Reuters and AP._
> 
> WASHINGTON — The Ukrainian president’s support for a deal with pro-Russian rebels that would introduce a special status for Ukraine’s breakaway regions drew both outrage and praise across the nation Wednesday.
> 
> ...



Did you not know both Russia and Ukraine belong to Europe?
IQ-50?


----------



## ESay (Oct 7, 2019)

Olde Europe said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it isnt Steinmeier deal. It is a plan how to implement some parts of the Minsk agreements. There is nothing new in it.
> ...


Well, there are two ways how to proceed in this. Implementing the Minsk agreements or completelly cutting off ties with the so called republics. Military option is doomed to failure and isnt considered seriously. 

If the ties are completely cut off, then Transnistria or even Abhazia scenario will be realised. I dont think this is in Ukraines interests. 

The Agreements option remains then. I dont consider them as a failure for Ukraine. They helped to halt a full scale war in the region at the first stage. On the second, they may guarantee preserving these territories in Ukraine. Of course these regions will have wide autonomy. But the Agreements dont mention the so called republics, but do discrete regions of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts with special status. The separatist leaders must accept that they are part of Ukraine as is in the Minsk agreements.


----------

