# In Britain, man executed, with gun in front of mums with children...



## 2aguy (Oct 7, 2018)

Good thing they banned and confiscated guns....you wouldn't have people executed with guns because criminals wouldn't have guns....but...then.....how did this guy get his gun that he used to execute this guy?

Children playing in street just minutes before daylight execution

A mum who witnessed a brutal execution outside her home said her daughter was playing in the street just minutes before.

Police and paramedics were called to Cornwood Close in Belle Vale at around 11.30am this morning after a man was shot multiple times in the head and torso.

The 27-year-old victim died a short time later and a murder investigation was launched as police hunt an armed assassin who is believed to have fled the scene on a bicycle.

One neighbour, who witnessed the shocking incident this morning, told the ECHO it is her daughter's birthday today and she had been playing with her new bike just before the shooting.

The woman, who didn't want to be identified, said: “My daughter was out in the street I wouldn’t even say two minutes before it happened.


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## Duckalert (Oct 8, 2018)




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## Vagabond63 (Oct 10, 2018)

*sigh* Here we go again, pity 2aguy didn't know this was a gangland hit, the "victim" had been shot in 2010 and later arrested himself for possessing a firearm.


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## fncceo (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> *sigh* Here we go again, pity 2aguy didn't know this was a gangland hit, the "victim" had been shot in 2010 and later arrested himself for possessing a firearm.



So, your point is, even in a country where private firearms are banned, we shouldn't be surprised if criminals have free access to them?


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 10, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> > *sigh* Here we go again, pity 2aguy didn't know this was a gangland hit, the "victim" had been shot in 2010 and later arrested himself for possessing a firearm.
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Private firearms are not banned over here, do keep up. Criminals have always had access to firearms, which they use mainly to protect themselves from other criminals with guns; it's something they picked up from America. The rest of us don't care that much if criminals shoot each other.


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## fncceo (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Criminals have always had access to firearms



Then why is it so wrong for non-criminals to have firearms with which to defend themselves?


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Good thing they banned and confiscated guns....you wouldn't have people executed with guns because criminals wouldn't have guns....but...then.....how did this guy get his gun that he used to execute this guy?



46 Gun murders in the UK a year vs. 11,000 in the US.  

They are getting it right.. us, not so much.  

The reason why you find one of these stories a month is because they are so unusual in the UK.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> *sigh* Here we go again, pity 2aguy didn't know this was a gangland hit, the "victim" had been shot in 2010 and later arrested himself for possessing a firearm.



2AGuy lives in mortal fear the rest of us will get tired of his fetish and the 33,000 deaths and 78,000 injuries that go with it.


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## Votto (Oct 10, 2018)

fncceo said:


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Damn it, I told you before, stop trying to make sense. 

It only annoys those on the Left.

Now he will go shout someone down.

Happy?


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Then why is it so wrong for non-criminals to have firearms with which to defend themselves?



Because a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.  

So it makes about as much since as owning your own rabid pit bull because your neighbor has a rabid pit bull guarding his crack house.


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> > Good thing they banned and confiscated guns....you wouldn't have people executed with guns because criminals wouldn't have guns....but...then.....how did this guy get his gun that he used to execute this guy?
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Their gun crime is going up, ours is going down.  Our problem isn't guns, our problem is democrats in power letting repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.

As more Americans own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, our violent crime rate went down 72%.....Britain banned and confiscated guns?   Their gun crime rate in London was up 42% last year, up 23% across England and Wales, with violent crime going up 95% in some areas of England......

Guns aren't our problem, a revolving door for violent, known, repeat gun offenders is our problem.


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> fncceo said:
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43% is a lie, you know it, you have been shown that the guy who made up that number, Kellerman changed it when he was called on it....here is the study where he had to change the number, followed by analysis of his lies...

NEJM - Error

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

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Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3] 

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold. 

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

*Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.*


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

*Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.*


*-----*


Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t. 

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8*

*In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns. 

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count. 

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology. 

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.*

*For example, *

*53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, *

*31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and *

*17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. *
*Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> *sigh* Here we go again, pity 2aguy didn't know this was a gangland hit, the "victim" had been shot in 2010 and later arrested himself for possessing a firearm.




What difference does that make?   It shows that criminals in Britain, a country, an Island, that banned and confiscated guns still get guns and use them to murder people when they want to murder people.....

You are simply confirming my point.


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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And that is the same thing that happens in the United States....70-80% of gun murder victims in the U.S. are criminals....and the shootings are confined to tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities.....meanwhile, good, normal Americans use their legal guns in the U.S. 1.1 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack, which has led to a 49% decrease in gun murder, a 75% decrease in gun crime and a 72% decrease in violent crime...

Meanwhile, in Britain, violent crime against normal people is going through the roof...

Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, *with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*

Of the other forces, *Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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Americans use their guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack...saving lives.....and of those 33,000, you always lie and refuse to admit that over 20,000 of those are suicide, which do not count considering countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do.....

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct

*. If this 1/3 vs. 2/3 ratio of deaths to injuries in actual shootings pertains in these DGUs, that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.*

Kleck is still correct, whether precisely or not. Remember that the NSDS was more comprehensive and sampled the national population for one year compared to the BRFSS sampling some states inconsistently. That makes Kleck and Gertz’ work the more valid of the two in any case.

Late 1990’s CDC leadership must have been scared off by their own numbers. However you slice it, there are tremendous numbers of DGUs done by Americans who take self-defense seriously and effectively. Thank goodness and the Second Amendment!


==============
Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:
Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.
For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).
It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what _are_ the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.
In the K-G article _Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun,_ 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.
[NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]
How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 _trillion_ per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
*When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”*
*Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”*
*So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 10, 2018)

fncceo said:


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I never said it was wrong as such, just that most people here in the UK aren't victims of "gun crime", we're generally not inclined to reach for a gun to resolve our differences, it's a sign of civilisation, you know.


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

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------------------------------------------   i think that all the taxpaying English peoples handguns were confiscated in 1996 weren't they .   Except for the 'queens' men and the retired 'tony blair' whose bodyguard leaves her Glock in Starbucks restrooms as she spends a penny  Vaga .


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## fncceo (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> such, just that most people here in the UK aren't victims of "gun crime",



Neither are most people in the US.


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

and long guns , mostly owned by the rich that have land isn't it Vaga ??   [pest control and hunting]


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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Same here...our gun crime is confined to democrat party controlled cities and even there, to tiny neighborhoods controlled by the democrat party.  The other gun owners, the legal gun owners, own and carry their guns and do not use them to harm anyone.

And the victims of gun crime in the U.S......?  70-80% of them are criminals, and of the rest a good many are friends and family of the criminals who have the illegal guns in the first place...


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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---------------------------------------------  not inclined . as i said the handguns were confiscated weren't they .   Well the 'queens' men and 'tony blairs' bodyguard still have handguns .   And long guns , the safe storage makes it very difficult to own even a shotgun in England .   And then laws against having a shotgun loaded and ready to go is illegal isn't it Vaga .    I think thats called Instant Arming  and i think that that is illegal  isn't it Vaga ??


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


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-----------------------------------------   English - Brits are SUBJECTS and as such aren't allowed to be armed up except ' as allowed by law' and the law doesn't allow the subjects to be armed up  JoeB .


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 10, 2018)

2aguy said:


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Blah, blah... From your own source, "A Home Office spokesman said the statistics contained in the Crime Survey of England and Wales - which asks people about their personal experiences, even if they have not reported offences to the police - provided a more accuerate picture and suggested that violent crime was actually at a record low.

The spokesman said: "Police reform is working with the latest ONS figures showing crimes traditionally measured by the (British Crime) Survey have fallen by a third since 2010 to a record low, with over 370,000 fewer violent crimes a year."" 

Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

Percentage figures are by and large, meaningless; i.e. a jump from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase.


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## Pilot1 (Oct 10, 2018)

We all know that criminals, and crazy people follow laws, right?  Especially gun control laws.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 10, 2018)

pismoe said:


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Nope. Self defence was no longer a reason to obtain a firearms certificate. Handuns used for this purpose could be handed in for compensation or sold to dealers before the deadline. 165,353 handguns were collected. That's 2.8% of the then population of 58.17 million. We were never awash with guns like America. Ironically there are 535,000 non shotgun licensed firearms in this country now along with around 1.3 million shotguns, so the idea of "no-guns = increase in violent crime" is, as we say over here, "bollocks".


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

and posted just because its funny .  ---   Tony Blair's bodyguard left gun in Starbuck's toilet  ---   yep , the 'queen' , tony blair' and all the ROYALS and big wigs [muslim mayor] all have  protection provided by taxpayer paid employees with guns eh Vaga ,


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


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---------------------------------------------------  foolishness , you just can't walk to the hardware store and buy a gun and thats all that matters   Vaga ,


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## Pilot1 (Oct 10, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Nope. Self defence was no longer a reason to obtain a firearms certificate. Handuns used for this purpose could be handed in for compensation or sold to dealers before the deadline. 165,353 handguns were collected. That's 2.8% of the then population of 58.17 million. We were never awash with guns like America. Ironically there are 535,000 non shotgun licensed firearms in this country now along with around 1.3 million shotguns, so the idea of "no-guns = increase in violent crime" is, as we say over here, "bollocks".



It is sad that the subjects of Great Britain have acquiesced to being a VICTIM of violence, and being OK with it.


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

think that handguns were banned on Oct. 16, 1996 ,  --------------------   ---  BBC ON THIS DAY | 16 | 1996: Handguns to be banned in the UK  ---


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## pismoe (Oct 10, 2018)

its funny but the 'brits' always bragged that their 'plod' , Bobbies or Coppers were not armed with guns .    Course that is changing from what i hear eh  Vaga ??


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## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Their gun crime is going up, ours is going down.



There's is relatively minor, ours is truly HORRIFIC.  Chicago alone has more gun murders than the entire UK has murders.  



2aguy said:


> Americans use their guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack...saving lives....



No, they don't. There are only 200 self-defense homicide by civilians and 900 shooting by cops, most of which probably weren't necessary.  

It's laughable that you guys think that you pull your penis compensators out 1 million times but only kill a few hundred people.


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## fncceo (Oct 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Chicago alone has more gun murders than the entire UK has murders.



Too many Irish.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Too many Irish.



Do you ever have anything intelligent to add to a conversation, or are you just here to troll?


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## fncceo (Oct 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Do you ever have anything intelligent to add to a conversation, or are you just here to troll?



Can't we do both?


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## Esmeralda (Oct 11, 2018)

fncceo said:


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Then why do you all need guns to protect yourselves?  Why are you so full of fear?


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## fncceo (Oct 11, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> Then why do you all need guns to protect yourselves? Why are you so full of fear?



Do you live in fear of an auto accident?  Or do you just wear seatbelts as a fashion statement?


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## Esmeralda (Oct 11, 2018)

fncceo said:


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In Spain, only 10% of the people own guns. It has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Comparing an auto accident to a gun death is a false analogy, BTW. Learn how to use logic.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Do you live in fear of an auto accident? Or do you just wear seatbelts as a fashion statement?



Seatbelts have a proven safety benefit. 

Guns actually make living in America MORE dangerous.   

Again- gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.


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## fncceo (Oct 11, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


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I've lived most of my adult live in other countries and I've visited Spain in a professional capacity.

I don't want to live in Spain.   I don't want to live in the UK, and I don't want to live in Australia.

I also don't want my country to emulate them.   If I did, I'd just save the time and move there, learn to speak Arabic,  so I can assimilate to the culture, and start getting benefits.

I'm sure, to you, Spain is heaven on Earth, but I have no compulsion to live there.


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## fncceo (Oct 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Guns actually make living in America MORE dangerous.



They haven't made my life any more dangerous.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 11, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> *sigh* Here we go again, pity 2aguy didn't know this was a gangland hit, the "victim" had been shot in 2010 and later arrested himself for possessing a firearm.


so criminals shooting criminals

Just like most murders in this country

Public service killing


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


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 the likelihood of my guns killing anyone in my family is ZERO tell me what 43 times ZERO is.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 11, 2018)

fncceo said:


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I rarely wear a seat belt


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## fncceo (Oct 11, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


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The be fair, I was just looking for an excuse to post that picture.


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## pismoe (Oct 11, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


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----------------------------------   nothing to do with FEAR , Guns are one of the things that a PREPARED person has at the ready .  A gun is the same as having a 'fire extinguisher' in the kitchen , smoke and fire detectors in the house and a spare tire in the car  Esmeralda .


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## 2aguy (Oct 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


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wrong....knife murder in Chicago is more murder than happens in Britain....British criminals do not engage in murder....that is the difference.  You want to ignore this fact because you have a phobia about guns...you will use any excuse to ban guns...they banned guns, they now have more gun crime.


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## 2aguy (Oct 11, 2018)

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Actual police numbers say different.....that is what those numbers show, asking people in low crime areas what their crime experience is tells you nothing about the real problem......you don't know what you are talking about....add to that the police under reporting crime and mislabeling crime so they can keep the real numbers lower and you have a real problem you obviously want to ignore.


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## 2aguy (Oct 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


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Moron....you think you are being clever but you aren't...... you are counting the 200 bodies on the ground, not the 1.1 million defensive uses of guns where the criminals run away, surrender, get shot and injured but not killed......

And again, get help.....every time we talk about guns you bring up the penis...there is really something off about you...get help.


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## 2aguy (Oct 11, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


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We aren't...we just understand human history and human nature.   Europe murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children.....Russia 25 million, China 70 million......does any of that mean anything to you?   Also, do you understand that every day, in every country, people are raped, robbed and murdered...do you understand that?  And those victims did not know the day, the time or location of their attacks until it happened......and yet you would deny them the ability to stay safe from those attacks....


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## 2aguy (Oct 11, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


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> > Esmeralda said:
> ...




Spanish criminals don't commit murder as much........goody for you.... most of the United States is the same way.  Our crime is isolated to very tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities....other than that there is very little crime...but crime still happens.... and you don't know where or when it is going to happen..

Would you prefer that a woman is raped or that she use a gun to stop it?  Please, answer that question.


----------



## pismoe (Oct 11, 2018)

they got 'penis' on the brain for some weird reason 2AGuy .


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 11, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Do you live in fear of an auto accident? Or do you just wear seatbelts as a fashion statement?
> ...




wrong....as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%....our violent crime rate went down 72%...this is a fact...so you don't know what you are talking about....

And again, you lie with that 43 times myth....

Kellerman, the man who lied to make up that number had to change it to 2.7 times...and even then, he still lied, using the worst methods to get his information..

First, the study where he was forced to change that number then the information about how lousy his research actually was...

NEJM - Error

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3] 

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold. 

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

*Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.*


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

*Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.*


*-----*


Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t. 

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8*

*In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns. 

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count. 

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology. 

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.*

*For example, *

*53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, *

*31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and *

*17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. *
*Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6


----------



## Theowl32 (Oct 11, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...


I had heard somewhere that the darkies are killing with machetes at an alarming rate.

Have a handle on that whole situation?


----------



## Pilot1 (Oct 11, 2018)

I doubt my house is going to burn down, as it hasn't for 35 years, but I still carry home owners insurance.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 11, 2018)

Pilot1 said:


> I doubt my house is going to burn down, as it hasn't for 35 years, but I still carry home owners insurance.




Home owners insurance.....you must be terrified of fire.....you can bet the left wingers here have never had a house fire...so they never buy fire insurance....right?


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> the likelihood of my guns killing anyone in my family is ZERO tell me what 43 times ZERO is.



I had a friend who thought the same thing until her teenage kid killed himself with that gun they bought for protection.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2018)

2aguy said:


> We aren't...we just understand human history and human nature. Europe murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children.....Russia 25 million, China 70 million......does any of that mean anything to you?



Yes, and they had plenty of guns, but when the government came for the other guy, they said, Go ahead. 

Germans had plenty of guns... not a one of them went out to defend their Jewish Neighbors... They were happy to see them go.  Oh, after the war they felt bad about it, like children who got sick after eating too much candy.  

Those "Good Germans" did use their guns when the allies invaded, thought... until the Allies confiscated all their guns.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Kellerman, the man who lied to make up that number had to change it to 2.7 times...and even then, he still lied, using the worst methods to get his information..



Kellerman never said anything of the sort.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2018)

2aguy said:


> To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "*a gun owner is 43 times* more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.



Except that's not what he said. He said a "GUN IN THE HOME" is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy... 

Now, if you take out the 39 suicides, then you get 4 homicides and accidents to every gun that kills a bad guy... this is the fun game gun nuts play.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > the likelihood of my guns killing anyone in my family is ZERO tell me what 43 times ZERO is.
> ...


Suicides don't count never did never will if there wasn't a gun in the house the kid could have committed suicide in any of a hundred other ways


----------



## pismoe (Oct 12, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > the likelihood of my guns killing anyone in my family is ZERO tell me what 43 times ZERO is.
> ...


-----------------------------   kid musta been mentally messed up and his being mentally messed up finally caught up with him eh JoeB ??


----------



## pismoe (Oct 12, 2018)

people have guns in the home so as to be PREPARED  same as having a fire extinguisher in the kitchen , a spare tire in the car , smoke and fire detectors in the house   JoeB .


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Suicides don't count never did never will if there wasn't a gun in the house the kid could have committed suicide in any of a hundred other ways



Not really.  

First, most other methods aren't as effective... and people who survive a suicide attempt usually don't try again.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

pismoe said:


> people have guns in the home so as to be PREPARED same as having a fire extinguisher in the kitchen , a spare tire in the car , smoke and fire detectors in the house JoeB .



Except those things are useful.   A gun really isn't. 



pismoe said:


> kid musta been mentally messed up and his being mentally messed up finally caught up with him eh JoeB ??



Or he was just having a bad day, he would have gotten over if there wasn't a gun in the house.  

But you guys need to compensate for your shortcomings, I doubt you care much about anyone else.


----------



## pismoe (Oct 13, 2018)

so just your opinion eh JoeB.  Course the spare tire and fire extinguisher , and yada , yada are only useful until they are NEEDED , same as a GUN JoeB .


----------



## pismoe (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > people have guns in the home so as to be PREPARED same as having a fire extinguisher in the kitchen , a spare tire in the car , smoke and fire detectors in the house JoeB .
> ...


-------------------------------------------   CARE [chuckle] . Care ain't worth much or anything except in a family unit but even that is iffy .    And here in the USA a person can care as much or as little as a person likes JoeB .


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

pismoe said:


> so just your opinion eh JoeB.  Course the spare tire and fire extinguisher , and yada , yada are only useful until they are NEEDED , same as a GUN JoeB .



Except guns aren't needed.  

Germany, Japan, the UK, France, Italy all ban or limit private gun ownership, they have LOWER crime rates than we do an their murder rates are in the hundreds instead of the tens of thousands like ours are. 



pismoe said:


> Care ain't worth much or anything except in a family unit but even that is iffy . And here in the USA a person can care as much or as little as a person likes JoeB .



Absolutely... the whole conservative movement is based on selfishness.. 

But that said, the rest of us who aren't compensating for tiny peckers are getting a little tired of the costs of the gun fetish. 

We are tired of carrying the 270 BILLION in economic losses guns cause. 

We are tried of having to walk through security checkpoints, key-cards and metal detectors because we don't know which of you nuts are going to go postal that day.  

We are tired of sending our kids off to school with clear backpacks not knowing if they will be involved in a mass shooting.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Suicides don't count never did never will if there wasn't a gun in the house the kid could have committed suicide in any of a hundred other ways
> ...




You mean except in Japan, China and Korea...where they have higher suicide rates than we do, and only the criminals have guns.....and in many countries in Europe where they also have a higher suicide rate than we do....but don’t let the truth get in the way of your lie....


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > people have guns in the home so as to be PREPARED same as having a fire extinguisher in the kitchen , a spare tire in the car , smoke and fire detectors in the house JoeB .
> ...



Nothing you just posted is even remotely true, you have been shown it isn't true, and you still post it......


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > so just your opinion eh JoeB.  Course the spare tire and fire extinguisher , and yada , yada are only useful until they are NEEDED , same as a GUN JoeB .
> ...




Those countries always had lower crime rates than the U.S. long before they banned guns.....their criminals did not commit murder as often as ours did....their socieites had feudalism, class based societies, World war 1 and 2 that killed off their young males, and disrupted their societal development...they are now catching up...

You can't explain how it is that Britain has more gun crime, not less, after banning and confiscating guns...on an island...meanwhile, you can't explain and never address how our gun murder rate went down 49% as we went from 4 million people carrying guns to over 17.25 million people carrying guns for self defense and from 200 million guns in private hands to close to 600 million guns in private hands.....at the same time, gun crime went down 75%, violent crime went down 72%

You can't explain how Britain has more gun crime now than before they banned guns, and we have less as more Americans own and carry guns...


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > so just your opinion eh JoeB.  Course the spare tire and fire extinguisher , and yada , yada are only useful until they are NEEDED , same as a GUN JoeB .
> ...




Americans use their guns to save lives 1.1 million times a year according to the CDC..... and the actual lives saved was put at about 170,000 a year......not including the rapes, and robberies stopped, and the money saved by that...

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct



 If this 1/3 vs. 2/3 ratio of deaths to injuries in actual shootings pertains in these DGUs, *that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved*—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.

Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

ut all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

*When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Americans use their guns to save lives 1.1 million



Save your NRA Spooge for someone who just fell off the turnip truck.  

Only 200 justified homicides with guns by civilians...  1.1 million doesn't pass the laugh test.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Americans use their guns to save lives 1.1 million
> ...




Moron...it is the CDC research..... and counting dead thugs doesn't collect all the data...are you this stupid, or just pretending to be this stupid......most criminals, as you have been told over and over again, run away instead of getting shot......or they surrender, rather than being shot, or when shot, don't die....but still get arrested.....

You didn't fall off the turnip truck, you were pushed, then they ran you over, several times....


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Suicides don't count never did never will if there wasn't a gun in the house the kid could have committed suicide in any of a hundred other ways
> ...




You are a moron...

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide



*There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.*

 According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.:  Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000.  By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.   

Suicide is a mental health issue.  If guns are not available other means are used.  Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the _Washington Post_ (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%). 

Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the _Post _article.  The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited.  Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows:  Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).

Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)

Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. 

*According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. *and the four countries that are the basis for the _Post_’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent.  Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Moron...it is the CDC research..... and counting dead thugs doesn't collect all the data...are you this stupid, or just pretending to be this stupid......most criminals, as you have been told over and over again, run away instead of getting shot......or they surrender, rather than being shot, or when shot, don't die....but still get arrested.....



Again, given that we have 2 million people in prison, you'd have us believe that we have 1.1 million being scared off with a gun and being arrested? Really?   

Come on, it doesn't pass the laugh test.  



2aguy said:


> There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.



Let's look at that from GunPolicy.org

The UK- 106 gun suicides out of 4800 total suicides.  (7.60/100K)

The US - 22,938 gun suicides out of 44876 suicides (13.9/100K) 

Yes, having guns makes suicides worse. 

But let's look at other peer countries. 

Canada -   544 Gun suicides out of 3924 suicies (11.44/100K). Canada has looser gun rules than the UK, but tighter than the US> 

Germany - Has probably the loosest gun laws in the G7 other than the US.  

but their suicide rate is still lower than ours (12.60) with 719 gun suicides out of 10,000.  

The country that throws everything off, of course, is Japan.  But Japan is a country where suicide is not only culturally acceptable but even a long part of their traditions.  (It is better to die than bring shame upon your family.)  

Again, 23,000 gun suicides a year, too high a price to pay for your fetish.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

Do you ever thing 2AGuy is out there like Batman, waiting for the call. 

"Quickly, Boy Wonder, someone is on the internet criticizing guns again! To the Gun Mobile!"


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron...it is the CDC research..... and counting dead thugs doesn't collect all the data...are you this stupid, or just pretending to be this stupid......most criminals, as you have been told over and over again, run away instead of getting shot......or they surrender, rather than being shot, or when shot, don't die....but still get arrested.....
> ...




Moron...what part of the people in other countries who have higher suicide rates and extreme gun control do you not understand?  It isn't just Japan you moron.....

According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron...it is the CDC research..... and counting dead thugs doesn't collect all the data...are you this stupid, or just pretending to be this stupid......most criminals, as you have been told over and over again, run away instead of getting shot......or they surrender, rather than being shot, or when shot, don't die....but still get arrested.....
> ...




And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Suicides don't count never did never will if there wasn't a gun in the house the kid could have committed suicide in any of a hundred other ways
> ...



Care to prove that with a link?

and suicide is a choice not a crime but we all know how you feel about letting people make their own choices


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > people have guns in the home so as to be PREPARED same as having a fire extinguisher in the kitchen , a spare tire in the car , smoke and fire detectors in the house JoeB .
> ...


Not useful to you but who the fuck are you to say what other people consider useful

oh yeah you're fucking nobody


----------



## pismoe (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Do you ever thing 2AGuy is out there like Batman, waiting for the call.
> 
> "Quickly, Boy Wonder, someone is on the internet criticizing guns again! To the Gun Mobile!"


-----------------------------------------------   to the GUN MOBILE  Boy Wonder .      I like it and yep , we are lucky to have '2AGuy' here on the board  JoeB !!


----------



## pismoe (Oct 13, 2018)

makes me wonder , where did Vagabond go ??   [chuckle]


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Do you ever thing 2AGuy is out there like Batman, waiting for the call.
> 
> "Quickly, Boy Wonder, someone is on the internet criticizing guns again! To the Gun Mobile!"




I am not the hero you want, joe....I am the hero you really, really need....


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

2aguy said:


> And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....



Meh, if prisons got us to lower crime, we'd have the lowest crime rates, not the highest.  

We lock up more people than any country in the world, but you are still out there clinging to your guns living in mortal fear some darkie might show up at your door.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> and suicide is a choice not a crime but we all know how you feel about letting people make their own choices



Yeah, if they are bad choices, we should discourage them.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....
> ...


we lock up the wrong people, Idiot


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > and suicide is a choice not a crime but we all know how you feel about letting people make their own choices
> ...



Still none of your business


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....
> ...




Locking up isn't the issue....democrats letting the violent criminals back out over and over again is the issue....


----------



## frigidweirdo (Oct 13, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...



I've told him that plenty of times. He knows. He just likes to lie.


----------



## pismoe (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....
> ...


------------------------------------------------   prisons .   I like what i hear the TRUMP saying about prisons as he talks about Forgiving certain types of criminals and giving them a second chance .  I just want that Forgiveness  to include Full Restoration on ALL Constitutional  Rights JoeB  .


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> we lock up the wrong people, Idiot



No, we lock up too many people.  And when we lock them up, we end up making them worse, because they can't get jobs and have to resort to more crime.  



2aguy said:


> Locking up isn't the issue....democrats letting the violent criminals back out over and over again is the issue....



Locking up is most certainly the issue...  A single conviction is enough to be a job killer in most cases, and you've pretty much created a "Career" criminal because they don't have much of a chance at any other kind of career.  

Then you make it too damned easy to get a gun and pursue that career.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 13, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > we lock up the wrong people, Idiot
> ...



No we lock up mostly non violent offenders

lock up only violent pieces of shit and our prison population decreases by half


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> No we lock up mostly non violent offenders
> 
> lock up only violent pieces of shit and our prison population decreases by half



No, what happens is the non-violent offenders eventually turn to violence when they can't get real jobs.  

We need a lot more prison reform beyond, "not locking people up".


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > No we lock up mostly non violent offenders
> ...



we need to lock up violent pieces of shit and keep them locked up
we need to stop the failed so called war on drugs and come up with some sort of alternate sentencing for nonviolent offenders like long stints of community service so we don't have to pay union hacks to sweep the streets


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> we need to lock up violent pieces of shit and keep them locked up
> we need to stop the failed so called war on drugs and come up with some sort of alternate sentencing for nonviolent offenders like long stints of community service so we don't have to pay union hacks to sweep the streets



Yawn, whatever... go back to the Libertarian Kiddy Table, the grownups will work on solving the problems.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > we need to lock up violent pieces of shit and keep them locked up
> ...



And you have solutions?

Oh yeah your default position is to blame everyone else for your failings


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> And you have solutions?
> 
> Oh yeah your default position is to blame everyone else for your failings



Not really... I just recognize that Capitalism is a shit sandwich for most people... even if they think they are doing well. 

But to the point, yes, there are solutions..  invest in education, create job programs and opportunties in poor areas, and the big one. 

Get rid of the fucking guns...


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > And you have solutions?
> ...




Britain did that, and their gun crime and violent crime against British citizens is going through the roof...meanwhile, in the U.S......as more Americans own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down...49%.  Our gun crime rate...went down 75%.....our violent crime, unlike Britain, went down 72%....as more Americans own and carry guns.  Funny how crime goes down when the victims can fight back effectively.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Britain did that, and their gun crime and violent crime against British citizens is going through the roof



48 gun homicides a year compared to our 11,000?  

Um... yeah, I think I'll take what's behind Door #1, Monty.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Britain did that, and their gun crime and violent crime against British citizens is going through the roof
> ...




As you know, but it doesn't seem to sink into your brain....your tiny brain....Britain always had a low murder rate compared to the U.S.....long before they banned and confiscated guns.  In fact, their gun murder rate went up after they banned guns, and then returned to the same level as before....showing, for a low intellect like you, that guns are not the driver of their murder rate.   Criminal culture in Britain doesn't feel the need to murder their victims...but they do feel the need for guns, as gun crime keeps going up in Britain after they banned and confiscated guns.

Meanwhile....

In the U.S.... gun murder went down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72% as more Americans own and carry guns....from 200 million guns in private hands to close to 600 million, from 4 million people carrying guns to now over 17.25 million...showing that your basic, core belief is wrong....guns do not equal more gun crime.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

2aguy said:


> As you know, but it doesn't seem to sink into your brain....your tiny brain....Britain always had a low murder rate compared to the U.S....



Yes, because they've ALWAYS limited who can own a gun.  They didn't pervert a militia amendment into "Any nut who wants a machine gun can have one!"  

I'm glad this is finally clear for you. 

Less guns = less murder.  Mostly because beating someone to death with your fists is a lot more work than shooting someone.  

48 gun murders a year vs. 11,000.....  We're just plain doing it wrong.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > As you know, but it doesn't seem to sink into your brain....your tiny brain....Britain always had a low murder rate compared to the U.S....
> ...




Moron, our knife murder number is higher than their entire murder number.....you are an idiot and with you failed understanding of crime and culture, you can't explain how gun crime rates in the U.S. went down with more gun ownership, and are going up in Britain with less law abiding gun ownership.....

You are still an idiot....


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Moron, our knife murder number is higher than their entire murder number..



Well, that sounds like a good reason for knife control. I'm betting the Brits don't sell swords and bayonets openly, either. 



2aguy said:


> you are an idiot and with you failed understanding of crime and culture,



Um, guy, we have pretty much the same culture as the UK and Canada, but they don't have anywhere near our crime rates... now how is that?  

They also don't have as many guns or prisons as we do.


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## 2aguy (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > As you know, but it doesn't seem to sink into your brain....your tiny brain....Britain always had a low murder rate compared to the U.S....
> ...




Moron......our knife, club and empty hand murder number is far higher than theirs......you idiot..and again...please explain how our gun murder rate dropped 49% as more Americans own and carry guns......over 17.25 million Americans now carry guns for self defense and you can't explain how our gun murder rate went down 49%, how our gun crime rate dropped 75%....75%....and our violent crime rate dropped 72%....

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

2017

Knives.....1,591

Hands and feet......696

Clubs.....467


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## 2aguy (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron, our knife murder number is higher than their entire murder number..
> ...




No, moron, we don't.......we have the democrat party in control of our inner cities for decades, in some places over 100 years who believe that locking up violent, known, gun criminals is wrong...so they keep letting them out and then they go on to kill people......   we never experienced the soul crushing feudalism of Europe or the destruction of our men through World War 1 and 2 the way they did........ completely different cultural experiences...and our social welfare network has had longer to destroy our families than theirs did...but they have now caught up as the violence in their cultures is showing...

You don't understand the issue, you are mentally ill.....you focus on guns, not criminals.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

2aguy said:


> please explain how our gun murder rate dropped 49% as more Americans own and carry guns



It didn't... it's has stayed pretty consistent and has gone up in the last two years...

2016: 14,415
2015: 12,974
2014: 10,945
2013: 11,208
2012: 11,622
2011: 11,068
2010: 11,078
2009: 11,493.  

Guns in the United States — Firearms, gun law and gun control

Whoops.


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## Geaux4it (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > please explain how our gun murder rate dropped 49% as more Americans own and carry guns
> ...


Gunpolicy.org 

LMAO

-Geaux


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2018)

Geaux4it said:


> Gunpolicy.org
> 
> LMAO



great source for people who want real figures... I hadn't checked their site in a while, and didn't know they had recently posted figures for 2015 and 2016.


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## Yarddog (Oct 14, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...




Private firearms are not banned in England? Then why is it illegal to defend yourself with a gun in England? or a knife? or a cane? defending yourself there has almost become an act of aggression it self In the eyes of the law.
Yet,  you say you dont care if Criminals shoot each other????   But heaven forbid a citizen shoot a Criminal in self defence.... then you care.    You dont see the irony here?


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## Yarddog (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Then why is it so wrong for non-criminals to have firearms with which to defend themselves?
> ...




Is there a link to your stat of 43 times?   I saw one that said 34 times, though.... these numbers can be manipulated.

CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > And you have solutions?
> ...



yes you know better than the people who think they are doing well and how many zeroes to the left of the decimal point does your net worth figure have?

Surely if you know what's best for everyone you must be extremely successful right?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Britain did that, and their gun crime and violent crime against British citizens is going through the roof
> ...


Feel free to move the fuck out


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## fncceo (Oct 14, 2018)

Yarddog said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



To own a firearm or weapon of any category in th UK requires a 'valid reason'.  Hunting and target shooting are the most common reasons.  Self defense or home defense are NOT allowed as valid reasons.


If you use a fire arm, or any weapon, including a cricket bat, in self defense, you must prove a) that you were carrying that weapon at the time for the purposes of participating in the valid reason, 'I was on my way to play cricket when I was assaulted ', and b) the the use of the weapon is considered 'reasonable' response the the level of force used against you.


This is important


Anytime you use a weapon in self defense in the UK, you must prove both that you were not carrying the weapon in anticipation of being assaulted and you must prove the use of the weapon was proportional to the threat.


You are guilty until you can prove your use of a weapon was justified.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 14, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...



That's not too different from our self defense laws

The person who shoots and kills in self defense cannot claim he is innocent of homicide and he must prove the shooting was justified.


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## HenryBHough (Oct 14, 2018)

Fake news.

Nobody could possibly be killed by a gun in Britain.

There are no guns in Britain.

They have the laws Pelosi and friends drool over imposing on you.

Therefore either they're f'n idiots (P & friends) or this is fake news.

No question you liberal snowflakes will find it easier to accept the latter rather than the former.  If you even know what that sentence means.


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## fncceo (Oct 14, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Yarddog said:
> ...



You need to prove that your level of force was reasonable,  except where laws like 'Castle Laws' apply.  

But using a legal weapon in self-defence isn't an issue here like it is in the UK.

Moreover, except is jurisdictions where you must demonstrate need to carry, you don't need to produce a reason to own a firearm or a legal weapon.


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## 2aguy (Oct 14, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > please explain how our gun murder rate dropped 49% as more Americans own and carry guns
> ...




Wrong...you doofus...

Notice....the numbers only go back to 1997 but feel free to go back farther.....the actual data is from Pew...


We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8



gun murder rate 1997 -2000


1997..... 10,729
1998..... 9,257
1999..... 8,480
2000..... 8,493
2001..... 8,719
2002... 9,369
2003.... 9,638
2004..... 9,385
2005.... 10,158
2006.... 10,225
2007 10,129
2008-- 9,528
2009-- 9,199
2010- 8,874
2011-- 8,653
2012-- 8,897
2013-- 8,454
2014-- 8,312
2015--9,616
2016--11,004
2017--10,982


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## 2aguy (Oct 14, 2018)

Yarddog said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...




He is lying when he uses the 43 times number and he knows it...since he has been shown that the researcher, Kellerman, had to change that number to 2.7 times after his research was analyzed by other researchers, and even then....he loaded his research with the worst cases to use as examples...here is some info on that number...the first link goes to the study kellerman did to change his number from 43 times to 2.7 times...then, I have links that look at how he even got that wrong....

joe know this and has been shown it several times...he just hates guns and will lie to push that agenda...

This is the link to kellerman's follow up study where he had to change the number from 43 to 2.7....

NEJM - Error

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3] 

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold. 

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

*Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.*


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

*Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.*


*-----*


Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t. 

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8*

*In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns. 

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count. 

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology. 

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.*

*For example, *

*53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, *

*31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and *

*17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. *
*Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 14, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



You still have to justify a shooting if the castle doctrine is in effect.  All the castle doctrine means is you have no duty to retreat from your own home.

I never said you needed a reason to own or to carry I said if you shoot and kill someone in self defense you have to prove it was justified


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## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2018)

Yarddog said:


> Is there a link to your stat of 43 times? I saw one that said 34 times, though.... these numbers can be manipulated.



Old news... look up "Kellerman Study".  The Gun Fetishists come up with all sorts of claims to try to discredit it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> yes you know better than the people who think they are doing well and how many zeroes to the left of the decimal point does your net worth figure have?
> 
> Surely if you know what's best for everyone you must be extremely successful right?



I do well enough, but I'm really not about material things...  

The thing is, when you have kids who go to bed hungry at night in the richest country in the world, then Capitalism is a Shit Sandwich.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Wrong...you doofus...
> 
> Notice....the numbers only go back to 1997 but feel free to go back farther.....the actual data is from Pew...



So even the figures you've posted show the numbers going up in the last few years.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2018)

2aguy said:


> joe know this and has been shown it several times...he just hates guns and will lie to push that agenda...
> 
> This is the link to kellerman's follow up study where he had to change the number from 43 to 2.7....



Except Kellerman says nothing of the sort here.  There aren't even quotes by Kellerman. 

Tell you what, find me a YOUTUBE link where Kellerman says that. 

Thanks.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 15, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > yes you know better than the people who think they are doing well and how many zeroes to the left of the decimal point does your net worth figure have?
> ...


Well how do you know you're not one of those people who doesn't realize he's not doing well even though he thinks he is?

And I've found that the people who say they don't care about material things are the one who can't afford material things.

If kids go to bed hungry in this country it's the parent's fault not anyone else's


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 15, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a link to your stat of 43 times? I saw one that said 34 times, though.... these numbers can be manipulated.
> ...


Old debunked news about an extremely limited study with a sample size so small as to be meaningless


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## pismoe (Oct 15, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


--------------------------------  Parents Fault ,   i think thats true .   There are food banks and charity services , Churches and just people on the street that would keep kids from going hungry


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## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > joe know this and has been shown it several times...he just hates guns and will lie to push that agenda...
> ...




Kellerman''s research where he changed the number is the first link, you doofus....


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## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a link to your stat of 43 times? I saw one that said 34 times, though.... these numbers can be manipulated.
> ...




Yes...claims from actual peer reviewers of his research and his own research where he had to change that number from 43 to 2.7......


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## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong...you doofus...
> ...




In 2015 obama, black lives matter and the ACLU openly attacked the police and they stopped pro actively policing....it is called the Ferguson effect, and we are just now, in the 2017 numbers getting past that attack.....

Again, as Pew shows....49%, decrease in gun murders as more Americans own and carry guns...you can't explain that...


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## JoeB131 (Oct 16, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> And I've found that the people who say they don't care about material things are the one who can't afford material things.



Naw, I just don't waste money on things I don't need. I've always kind of lived a Spartan lifestyle, but that came from all the years I was in the military and had to move quickly...  

Now my parents grew up during the Great Depression, you want to talk about folks who were frugal. 



Skull Pilot said:


> If kids go to bed hungry in this country it's the parent's fault not anyone else's



No, it's the fault of a society that still allows poverty and inequality.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 16, 2018)

2aguy said:


> In 2015 obama, black lives matter and the ACLU openly attacked the police and they stopped pro actively policing....it is called the Ferguson effect, and we are just now, in the 2017 numbers getting past that attack.....



Yawn, there is no "Ferguson Effect".  That cops can't stop black folks for a Driving While Black has had no effect on gun crime.  

What's caused the increase is that the National Rampage Association if FLOODING THE COUNTRY with guns.  More guns... more gun murders. 

This really isn't complicated, Dick Tiny.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 16, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > And I've found that the people who say they don't care about material things are the one who can't afford material things.
> ...



It's the parents who are responsible for their own kids not "society"

With all the giveaways the government provides any parent can feed their kids

and it's funny how you talk about things you need or don't need when you try to tell everyone else what they need or don't need


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## pismoe (Oct 16, 2018)

i've alway been frugal or thrifty , no real reason for it but i think its smart to have minimal bills a full belly , good decent clothes , cash , self protection , a nice place to live and Spares on the shelf to take care of some future FOOD needs .   Worked good for me for about 50 years as i was in charge of my own money .


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## Esmeralda (Oct 16, 2018)

fncceo said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Guns actually make living in America MORE dangerous.
> ...


They make everyone's life more dangerous.  Gun death in the US is about the highest in the world because there are 100 guns in the US per 100 people.  Per capita.  Too many guns and very high gun death. In Spain, there are 10 guns per 100 people and an extremely low gun death rate. Figure it out. It's in black and white. Use logic instead of fear and emotion.


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## Esmeralda (Oct 16, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


I absolutely do not believe at all that you have lived in other countries.  Not at all.  You're making it up to try to bolster an empty case for no gun control.


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## Esmeralda (Oct 16, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


Your posts indicate you have absolutely no broad world view, no common sense and no wisdom.


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## pismoe (Oct 16, 2018)

i have no use for fureigners or their foreign countries or foreign ways of doing things  Esmeralda .   I have lived 70 year and same for my family as they have lived for different periods of time and some greater then my 70 years .   And guns were and are all over the place .  Americans aren't giving up their guns except for some  individuals that may want to Esmeralda .


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## fncceo (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> In Spain, there are 10 guns per 100 people and an extremely low gun death rate. Figure it out. It's in black and white




You're right ... because guns are the only way anyone could ever get hurt.  They didn't even have band aids and Neosporin before guns came around.


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## Esmeralda (Oct 16, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > In Spain, there are 10 guns per 100 people and an extremely low gun death rate. Figure it out. It's in black and white
> ...


You are using a false analogy.  Chain saws have a purpose, a useful everyday purpose.  Guns only  have one purpose: to kill. Totally different thing. Learn how to think logically.


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## fncceo (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> Chain saws have a purpose, a useful everyday purpose.



So do guns.

I wear one every day and get paid to do it.


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## fncceo (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> I absolutely do not believe at all that you have lived in other countries.



You don't have to, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

In fact, I want you to hate guns and I want you to hate the fact that Americans can own them.  I want that fact to fester in your brain and slowly drive you insane as you fail to comprehend that not everyone wants to be as _'awesome' _as Spain.







P.S.  Is Franco still dead?


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




No, actually, they don't.  Gun crime in this country is confined to tiny areas in democrat controlled cities.......as well, according to the Centers For Disease Control, Americans use their legal guns 1,100,000 times a year to save lives and stop violent criminal attack...far more lives saved and kept from destruction than are taken when democrats allow violent gun criminals out of jail, over and over again.

Europe reserves most of it's murder for their governments.  The governments of Europe allowed 12 million innocent men, women and children to be murdered by the German socialists...handing these unarmed people over to be sent to death camps.  If you average that 12 million number over the same time period, their murder rate is higher than our criminal murder rate.

As well...how do you explain the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%?   How do you explain that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%?  How do you explain that as more Americans own and carry guns our violent crime rate went down 72%?

With your above post, please go on to explain how that happened it guns make us less safe?


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...




Do you really feel that guns  serve only one purpose?  To kill?   How is it then that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%....we are not talking a small increase in ownership or carrying either, from 200 million guns in private hands to close to 600 million, and from 4.7 million people carrying guns to over 17.25 million today....and our gun murder rate went down 49%.

As an anti gunner, please answer this question.  For you, is it better that a woman is raped and murdered, or that she be able to use a gun to stop the rape and stay alive?

Do you have the courage to answer that question?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Funny how I've been around guns all my life just like many millions of other people and have never once been less safe because of it


----------



## Skull Pilot (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



And yours indicate you like to be a follower and have people tell you how to live


----------



## Esmeralda (Oct 16, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > I absolutely do not believe at all that you have lived in other countries.
> ...


Typical pro-gun person--full of hate and venom.  Poor little person.


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## fncceo (Oct 16, 2018)

Esmeralda said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



You're confusing hate with amusement.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

Pilot1 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. Self defence was no longer a reason to obtain a firearms certificate. Handuns used for this purpose could be handed in for compensation or sold to dealers before the deadline. 165,353 handguns were collected. That's 2.8% of the then population of 58.17 million. We were never awash with guns like America. Ironically there are 535,000 non shotgun licensed firearms in this country now along with around 1.3 million shotguns, so the idea of "no-guns = increase in violent crime" is, as we say over here, "bollocks".
> ...



Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

pismoe said:


> its funny but the 'brits' always bragged that their 'plod' , Bobbies or Coppers were not armed with guns .    Course that is changing from what i hear eh  Vaga ??



Is it? We've always armed our police when the circumstances called for it, but I've not heard anything at all about arming out police on a regular basis.


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## gipper (Oct 17, 2018)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Good thing they banned and confiscated guns....you wouldn't have people executed with guns because criminals wouldn't have guns....but...then.....how did this guy get his gun that he used to execute this guy?
> ...


Why would you gladly give up your right to self defense?  Are you stupid?


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



I suspect that if you did, we'd probably thow you out or lock you up; generally not fond of psychopaths over here.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



I bet Amy Pittman thought exactly like you once upon a time. Added agony: Justice is haphazard after kids’ gun deaths

"Children under age 12 die from gun accidents in the United States about once a week, on average. Almost every death begins with the same basic circumstances: an unsecured and loaded gun, *a guardian’s lapse in attention*."


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
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Wow, that's a leap; suggesting statistics are deliberately compiled from "low crime areas", because the facts don't agree with your agenda driven propaganda. Talk about paranoid conspiracy theorist.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

Theowl32 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



There's been a "scare story" in the Telegraph recently about the use of machettes by certain criminal elements, but hardly at an "alarming rate". Oh, the Telegraph has been cited as the second most unreliable news scource in the UK, just an FYI


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

pismoe said:


> people have guns in the home so as to be PREPARED  same as having a fire extinguisher in the kitchen , a spare tire in the car , smoke and fire detectors in the house   JoeB .


Prepared for an armed burglar? How many burglars carry guns in the US?


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...


Are you seriously saying Democrats deliberately change the law to allow murderers/violent offenders to go free? How do they do that?


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...


A fine comment on the sad state of Republican America today.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

pismoe said:


> makes me wonder , where did Vagabond go ??   [chuckle]


Sorry, I have a life outside of the internet, unlike you it seems.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Unfortunately out right wing government decided to drastically cut Police numbers and resources, nothing at all to do with not having guns (which we still do as it happens, see my previous post). Violent crime trends have gone down since 1996.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

Yarddog said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



It's not "illegal" to defend yourself over here, where did that drivel come from?


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 17, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


six, last time I looked, do I qualify?


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## Pilot1 (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.



And neither do people in the U.S. who legally carry a firearm.  Maybe YOU can't trust yourself, and your emotions, but others can, and do.  That doesn't happen with law abiding citizens here.  Nobody that is law abiding is shooting anyone in the pub.

However, we have a right to defend ourselves, especially in our homes.  The British don't have that right.  They can't use a weapon to defend themselves.  They have acquiesced to being VICTIMS.


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## fncceo (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > people have guns in the home so as to be PREPARED  same as having a fire extinguisher in the kitchen , a spare tire in the car , smoke and fire detectors in the house   JoeB .
> ...



Robbers go armed, burglars typically don't. Using a gun in a burg turns it into a Class C Felony sometimes called 'aggravated burglary '


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Pilot1 said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...


neither do I


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## fncceo (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.



Where's the fun in that?


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Every accidental death of a child is caused by a guardian's lapse in attention

Kids get poisoned because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids drown in pools and bathtubs because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids fall down stairs and out of windows because of a guardian's lapse in attention

etc etc etc etc ad infinitum


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
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I am  not, never have been and never will be a member of the republican party

when you are incapable of seeing the world in more than 2 dimensions you miss out on a lot


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## Pilot1 (Oct 17, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Every accidental death of a child is caused by a guardian's lapse in attention
> 
> Kids get poisoned because of a guardian's lapse in attention
> Kids drown in pools and bathtubs because of a guardian's lapse in attention
> ...



And these are all MUCH MORE COMMON than any accidents involving a gun.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
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No you're a Brit nothing you say matters here


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


-----------------------------   so you were out and about with your getting all zhit faced like all limey wankers do i suppose .   As far as PLOD and guns , you wankers always used to brag that your 'plod' did not carry guns like is done in the USA .   My only point is that your 'plod' has been arming up these last few years Vaga .  I'm just happy to see that arming up of your 'plod' because it tells me that violence is growing in 'blighty' Vaga .


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
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--------------------------------  Who was it , see 'munir hussein' think it was and see what happened to him when he defended himself against burglars or home invaders or similar   Vaga .


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

'munir hussein' case as 'munir' was jailed after he defended himself and his family in 'england' Vaga .   ---  Munir Hussain case - Wikipedia  ---


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

see this info , it might make you understand what you are seeing the next time you see your 'plod' armed up in the not to distant future  Vaga .  -------------  ---   UK police chiefs discuss officers routinely carrying guns  ---


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

gipper said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
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-----------------------------------------------   they have a rule or something in their 'constitution' or some paperwork that they have the 'right' to be armed as ALLOWED by LAW or some such silliness .    And language , its stuff like that that We YANKS gotta watch out for .


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

as far as being stupid , no not stupid but they have a Subject and emotional tendency and they thought that their 'democracy' or 'mob ruled' government would be fair .    But the end result was that the 'brits' meekly handed in hundreds of thousands of nice valuable and historic handguns to be destroyed .    Think it was in 1996 that their 'handguns were Confiscated and destroyed .


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## Esmeralda (Oct 17, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


I don't think so.


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## Esmeralda (Oct 17, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Chain saws have a purpose, a useful everyday purpose.
> ...


It's a completely different thing.  You should know that.  Again, try to think logically.


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## HenryBHough (Oct 17, 2018)

Alas, if Britain but had gun control this could never have happened.....


OH, wait!


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

and whats to get worked up about anyway ??    USA a country of over 310 million mongrels plus 11 to 30 million illegal aliens .  And what , about 30 thousand gun deaths and about 15 thousand of those gun deaths are criminals that needed shooting and then some suicides that wanted to die .  --------------   its no big deal Esmeralda and other gun controllers on the board and Vaga .


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## pismoe (Oct 17, 2018)

take away the motorcycles and Americans have LESS Freedom but are safer .  Take away the cars , swimming pools , 5 gallon buckets , rope , prescription  drugs . fatty foods , beer , alcohol , big macs , quarter pounders and Americans have LESS Freedoms but are safer .   Same goes for ---  GUNS ---   Esmeralda


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 21, 2018)

Pilot1 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.
> ...



Yeah, right, whatever. Kansas man admits to shooting Indian tech workers in bar - CNN


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 21, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
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Does a responsible parent really need to worry about guns lying around? That would be one less "lapse of attention" to worry about, at least.


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## 2aguy (Oct 21, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Pilot1 said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
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Yes.....one individual broke the law......

And here is another example....Virginia....crime in bars went down, not up, as they allowed people to carry guns in bars.....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result -  WND



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants _not_ increase under the new law, it _decreased_ by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”


Read more at Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result -  WND



*More.....actual research by Richmond Times-Dispatch*

Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants

*The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.*

*--------------------------*

*At The* Times-Dispatch's request, state police pulled from their computerized database all major crimes at bars and restaurants reported by local law-enforcement agencies across Virginia for two successive fiscal years. The Times-Dispatch then contacted more than a dozen police departments in Virginia for more detailed information on all aggravated assaults, homicides and sexual assaults involving firearms at those businesses.
Reported robberies were not analyzed because they tend to involve premeditated crimes by perpetrators openly displaying guns, and many of the affected businesses are chain restaurants that don't serve alcohol.
*Only two fatal shootings occurred during the last fiscal year — one outside a Petersburg nightclub and the other at a Radford restaurant — but neither involved concealed-gun permit holders.* *And only two of the 18 aggravated assaults reported could be linked definitively to concealed-carry holders.*


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 21, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


Never said you were; my comment reflected the fact that your country has a Republican President, Senate and Congress; "Republican America" seemed a reasonable way of putting it.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 21, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


So I'm not allowed to post in the Europe forum? So much for free speech.


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## 2aguy (Oct 21, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...




If a responsible parent wants to reduce the risk of danger to their child, they would get rid of their car, not their gun...

Accidental child death due to guns...with the majority caused by guns in the homes of criminals who are prohibited from owning guns in the first place..

Accidental gun deaths for children vs. accidental car deaths for children...notice the difference in the number.....get rid of yoru car.......

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
*2016:*

*2016: Kids ( <1 to age 14)*
*Total guns: ......74
Total Cars:  1,261*


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 21, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...


No more or less than any "reasonable" parent who leaves the gate to a pool open, or the medicine cabinet unlocked

The point that sailed right over your head is that accidents other than those with firearms kill far more children but none of you people seem to care about those dead kids 

It's the same mindset that makes you people think that getting murdered with a gun is somehow worse than getting murdered in any of a thousand other ways that don't involve a gun


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 21, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...



You don't have free speech in the UK remember?

And I never said you couldn't post I just said nothing you say matters to anyone in the US

And FYI I have no obligation to allow anyone the freedom of speech as the First Amendment only pertains to the government passing laws that prohibit free speech and the free exercise of religion.

If you're going to preach to US citizens about their rights you should at least understand them first


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## pismoe (Oct 21, 2018)

i think that Vaga will disappear from the conversation pretty soon .[chuckle]


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## 2aguy (Oct 22, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




They fight increases in sentences and fight to reduce sentences for violent criminals, on top of that, democrat prosecutors and judges allow known, violent, repeat gun offenders to get bail, and to get light sentences even for repeat gun crime.


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## 2aguy (Oct 22, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




They have gone down 72% here in the same time while gun crime in Britain went up 42% in London last year.....


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 24, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...



Really? So the law in America changes depending on political leanings only? Remarkable. I assume you can provide concrete evidence to back up your assertions?


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 24, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...



Prove the direct corrolation between alleged increased gun ownership in America and the alleged decline in gun crime as opposed to any of the attendant social factors that come in to play; otherwise you are just making unsubstantiated assertions to promote your agenda.

The rise in gun crime in London has nothing to do with Londoners not owning guns, as I've stated before, there have been ideological austerity cuts to policing which have  caused a spike in these crimes, coupled with an increase in the crack cocaine trade.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 24, 2018)

pismoe said:


> i think that Vaga will disappear from the conversation pretty soon .[chuckle]



As I've said before, I have a life outside the internet.


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 24, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > Pilot1 said:
> ...



Well if we're going to trade examples, this could get monotonous and will hardly advance either argument. 10 people injured in bar shooting

Personally, when I go to my local pub, I don't want to worry about two people getting drunk, having an argument and pulling guns; rather not be caught in the crossfire, thanks.


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## pismoe (Oct 24, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > i think that Vaga will disappear from the conversation pretty soon .[chuckle]
> ...


--------------------------------------------   and you don't have much to say on this thread when YOU are on the internet   Vaga  !!   ---------   But Good mornin Vaga , hows Tony Martin' doing and too bad that young Fusilier Lee Rigby or one of you 'brit subjects' didn't have a gun so as to be able to stop RIGBY'S beheading on a busy 'londonistan' street by 2 imported foreigners .  [think it was in londonistan  wasn't it Vaga]


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## 2aguy (Oct 24, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...




I didn't say there was one...what I keep saying is that the premise of the entire anti gun argument is that more guns = more gun crime.  The last 25 years of actual experience in the United States shows that isn't even remotely true or accurate....the entire argument for more gun control is false.

I also have a list of research papers that show that Armed Americans do help reduce the crime rate....

As to London?  You fail to understand.....Britain banned and confiscated guns....and the criminals have more of them...and are using them more for crime....

I keep listing the actual crime problem both here in the States and in Britain....   single, teenage girls having children without fathers in the home to teach young males how to be peaceful men, the increase in 3rd world immigrants from violent countries who do not share Western values toward violence....and the attack on the police by left wingers, who cut their funding, their manpower and cripple their efforts with politically correct policies.....

I have listed those factors over and over.....

And yes....when good people are incapable of defending themselves, the criminals become more bold....that is why here, in the U.S. .....our gun murder rate is down 49%, our gun crime rate is down 75%, and our violent crime rate is down 72%.....as more Americans own and carry guns...


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## pismoe (Oct 24, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...


--------------------------------------------------   as i have said , the number of gun deaths in the USA are an ACCEPTABLE  price to pay for Americans to have the RIGHT and ability to own guns  and i pay no attention to them Vaga .


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## 2aguy (Oct 24, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...




And I have this....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result -  WND



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants _not_ increase under the new law, it _decreased_ by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”


Read more at Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result -  WND



*More.....actual research by Richmond Times-Dispatch*

Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants

*The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.*

*--------------------------*

*At The* Times-Dispatch's request, state police pulled from their computerized database all major crimes at bars and restaurants reported by local law-enforcement agencies across Virginia for two successive fiscal years. The Times-Dispatch then contacted more than a dozen police departments in Virginia for more detailed information on all aggravated assaults, homicides and sexual assaults involving firearms at those businesses.
Reported robberies were not analyzed because they tend to involve premeditated crimes by perpetrators openly displaying guns, and many of the affected businesses are chain restaurants that don't serve alcohol.
*Only two fatal shootings occurred during the last fiscal year — one outside a Petersburg nightclub and the other at a Radford restaurant — but neither involved concealed-gun permit holders.* *And only two of the 18 aggravated assaults reported could be linked definitively to concealed-carry holders.*


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## Natural Citizen (Oct 24, 2018)

That reminds me, I have to get some mums in the ground. It's hard to find the hearty mums that come back, though.


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## 2aguy (Oct 24, 2018)

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond63 said:
> ...




No.....sentencing and handling of criminals changes dependent on the political affiliation of the prosecutor, and judge.......  and the politicians who reduce the sentences for violent criminals, and fight to keep stiffer sentences from being enacted...


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## Vagabond63 (Oct 28, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...



Another unsubstantiated assertion, prove it.


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