# The Exposed Truth of Jean Chrétien



## jimnyc

A model citizen? A true patriot? A figure head of the nation?....not in this case! 


Jean Chrétien has been acting as Canada's Prime Minister since November 1993 and as head of the Liberal Party of Canada. Born in Shawinigan, Québec on January 11, 1934 as Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien, Canada's leader is currently at the pension age of 67. He is a husband and father of three. 

Many Canadian citizens won't lie and tell you our leader is full of the positive characteristics that make a great national leader. Many tend to view Jean Chrétien as a very confused person that does not seem to have all of his gears turning at the same speed as the rest of the country. And many more believe that Jean may enjoy an occasional drink from time to time. On several of these occasions, Jean has public humiliated his country and his people. The following are just several moments in his life.... 

The Moments: 
 At a press conference in the US, Mr. Chrétien was asked about the increasing number of drugs coming across the border between US and Canada. Somewhere in Mr. Chrétien's mind, he thought that the reporter was speaking about the increase in trucks (as in trade) crossing the border.  
Good Ol' Jean replied, "Trucks? It's good! Let them come across the border! We will take all we can get!" 
The crowd, the country and the president of the US sat in silence. What was this guy thinking? 

 On November 5th, 1995, an intruder broke into the Prime Minister's residence at 24 Sussex Drive. The intruder, Andre Dallaire, scaled a fence, wandered the grounds and broke into the mansion. He confronted the prime minister's wife, Aline Chrétien, at the couple's bedroom door. She slammed the door and locked it, then awoke Jean, who found the situation so absurd, he thought she was having a bad dream, and the PM went back to sleep. It took Mounties seven minutes to respond to Mrs. Chrétien's call for help... let's see this situation happen in at the White House. Not only an embarrassing moment for Chrétien, but also the RCMP because of the lack of quick response. Wake up Jean, the only bad dream for Canadians is having you as leader! 

 Last year, at the APEC conference in Vancouver , students from the University of BC protesting Canada's trade with Asian countries which do not have humanity laws for their people. Some students were arrested by the RCMP, and some were even pepper sprayed. When a reporter asked Mr. Chrétien about the RCMP's use of pepper spray on the peaceful protest, Jean did it again. 
Canada's leader replied, "Pepper? I put that on my plate." 
What about Canada's humanity laws against Jean? 

 Then we have the "Mother of All" Jean embarrassing moments! 
On Flag Day, 1996, on a walk through Hull, Quebec, Chrétien was confronted by a group of protesters. Then it happened... As if Canadian Prime Minister had no bodyguards, he grabbed one man, Bill Clennet, by the throat and pushed him to the ground. The incident was shown across the country and throughout the world. It just happened that Jean was wearing a pair of dark sunglasses which made him look like a gangster or even the Terminator. Later, Chrétien joked about his actions which was later called "The Shawinigan Handshake". Mr. Clennet took legal action, however no Canadian really knows what the actual outcome was... 


And in this corner, the PM of Canada!

 Then there is always Chrétien and his strange english vocabulary. As leader of Canada, one would believe that the Prime Minister would speak proper English. In Jean's case, he sometimes gets his Francais and English a little mixed up...  
"Dar iss non dax reref dis ear." 
Dear God! With all the money that the government sucks from tax payers, could we not give him an english class other than those offer in Canada's public schools. This man must represent us abroad?! 

 When King Hussien of Jordan dies, Chrétien doesn't bother to attend funeral service. He continues on with his ski trip. Don't bother to pay respect to a international leader, just keep on skiing...  
"Watch out for the tree Sonny!" 

 At Canadian Forces Base Petewawa in Ontario, the Prime Minister gathers with Croatian refugees. He joins in on a basketball game with several of the refugees, perhaps as a friendly gesture,but he intends on playing in a three piece suit and dress shoes. Taking a jump shot, the Prime Minister slips and falls. He scraps only his hands but embarasses Canada yet again. 


Chrétien and Martin deciding the country's future 


Now Canadians must watch as the Finance Minister, Paul Martin, plays with the wallets of middle class Canadians... Where is the tax breaks? Where is the money going into use at?? *Yes, perhaps the national deficit is decreasing but soon, so won't the population, as Canadians die sitting in waiting lines at the hospitals.. three patients in one bed. And our military is losing it's moral as their housing deteriorates, tanks rusts, and helicopters fall from the sky.* But Ottawa thinks Canada is happy..? Canadian leaders worry more about lower the deficit than the health and well being of it's people. Millions of Canadians live below the poverty level.... but not in Ottawa. While people sleep on the streets from Vancouver to St. John's, members of parliment sleep in their warm beds. While senior citizens eat cat food, they eat lobster and little children. 

The road to Ottawa is short, but somewhere along the way, the representatives that voters elect there, forget who they work for. Instead of waging popularity battles in the House of Commons, shouldn't those high-paid clowns do some work. They contiually take holidays when nation problems are at hand. Creating problems instead of repair them, issues such as one which involved Natives. And what about those old unseen members in the Senate... what exactly do they do? Stop cutting the needs of the average Canadian, cut salaries and pensions of soft-handed politicians.


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## vyxen

If intelligence is determined by how the person speaks, then George W Bush must have an IQ of 6 squared.

From About.com, Bushism's for 2003

We had a chance to visit with Teresa Nelson who's a parent, and a mom or a dad." George W. Bush, Jacksonville, Florida, Sept. 9, 2003

"As Luce reminded me, he said, without data, without facts, without information, the discussions about public education mean that a person is just another opinion." George W. Bush, Jacksonville, Florida, Sept. 9, 2003

"I'm a follower of American politics." George W. Bush, Crawford, Texas, Aug. 8, 2003

"We had a good Cabinet meeting, talked about a lot of issues. Secretary of State and Defense brought us up to date about our desires to spread freedom and peace around the world." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 1, 2003

"Security is the essential roadblock to achieving the road map to peace." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., July 25, 2003

"Our country puts $1 billion a year up to help feed the hungry. And we're by far the most generous nation in the world when it comes to that, and I'm proud to report that. This isn't a contest of who's the most generous. I'm just telling you as an aside. We're generous. We shouldn't be bragging about it. But we are. We're very generous." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., July 16, 2003

"It's very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfast and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped change America." George W. Bush, Dakar, Senegal, July 8, 2003

"My answer is bring them on."On Iraqi militants attacking U.S. forces, George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., July 3, 2003

"You've also got to measure in order to begin to effect change that's just more  when there's more than talk, there's just actual  a paradigm shift." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., July 1, 2003

"I urge the leaders in Europe and around the world to take swift, decisive action against terror groups such as Hamas, to cut off their funding, and to support  cut funding and support, as the United States has done." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 25, 2003

"Iran would be dangerous if they have a nuclear weapon." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 18, 2003

"Now, there are some who would like to rewrite historyrevisionist historians is what I like to call them." George W. Bush, Elizabeth, N.J., June 16, 2003

"I am determined to keep the process on the road to peace." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 10, 2003

"The true strength of America happens when a neighbor loves a neighbor just like they'd like to be loved themselves." George W. Bush, Elizabeth, N.J., June 16, 2003

"We are making steadfast progress." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 9, 2003

"I'm the master of low expectations." George W. Bush, aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things." George W. Bush, aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"I recently met with the finance minister of the Palestinian Authority, was very impressed by his grasp of finances." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 29, 2003

Got a Bushism? 
Email it to: politicalhumor.guide@about.com 

"Oftentimes, we live in a processed world  you know, people focus on the process and not results." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 29, 2003

"I've got very good relations with President Mubarak and Crown Prince Abdallah and the King of Jordan, Gulf Coast countries." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 29, 2003

"All up and down the different aspects of our society, we had meaningful discussions. Not only in the Cabinet Room, but prior to this and after this day, our secretaries, respective secretaries, will continue to interact to create the conditions necessary for prosperity to reign." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 19, 2003

"First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're willing to kill." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 19, 2003

"We've had a great weekend here in the Land of the Enchanted." George W. Bush, Albuquerque, N.M., May 12, 2003 (New Mexico's state nickname is "Land of Enchantment")


"I think war is a dangerous place." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 7, 2003

"We ended the rule of one of history's worst tyrants, and in so doing, we not only freed the American people, we made our own people more secure." George W. Bush, Crawford, Texas, May 3, 2003

"We've got hundreds of sites to exploit, looking for the chemical and biological weapons that we know Saddam Hussein had prior to our entrance into Iraq." George W. Bush, Santa Clara, Calif., May 2, 2003

"I don't bring God into my life to  to, you know, kind of be a political person." George W. Bush, interview with Tom Brokaw aboard Air Force One, April 24, 2003

"You're free. And freedom is beautiful. And, you know, it'll take time to restore chaos and order  order out of chaos. But we will." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 13, 2003

"Perhaps one way will be, if we use military force, in the post-Saddam Iraq the U.N. will definitely need to have a role. And that way it can begin to get its legs, legs of responsibility back." George W. Bush, the Azores, Portugal, March 16, 2003

Are You An Expert
 on Bushspeak?
Take the Bushisms 
Quiz

"Now, we talked to Joan Hanover. She and her husband, George, were visiting with us. They are near retirement  retiring  in the process of retiring, meaning they're very smart, active, capable people who are retirement age and are retiring." George W. Bush, Alexandria, Va., Feb. 12, 2003

"[The Space Shuttle] Columbia carried in its payroll classroom experiments from some of our students in America." George W. Bush, Bethesda, Md., Feb. 3, 2003

"And, most importantly, Alma Powell, secretary of Colin Powell, is with us." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 30, 2003  


"The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself." George W. Bush, Grand Rapids, Mich., Jan. 29, 2003

"When Iraq is liberated, you will be treated, tried and persecuted as a war criminal." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 22, 2003

"One year ago today, the time for excuse-making has come to an end." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 8, 2003


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## jimnyc

The beauty of your post is that you got "bushisms" from a page dedicated to political humor.

There is no humor in the second to last paragraph of the post I put up.

Sad, really, but now I can clearly see why you are a bitter loser.


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## Joan

About the only reply I can come up with for this bullshit is Clinton's most famous line - "I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN"


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## janeeng

hahahaha, very good Joan, and how true it is! what a joke and what a silly post vyxen!


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## Jackass

A bitter loser huh?? Thats harsh.


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *The beauty of your post is that you got "bushisms" from a page dedicated to political humor.
> 
> There is no humor in the second to last paragraph of the post I put up.
> 
> Sad, really, but now I can clearly see why you are a bitter loser. *



An EMPLOYED loser, unlike yourself. Get off your fucking ass and get a job.


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## Jackass

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *An EMPLOYED loser, unlike yourself. Get off your fucking ass and get a job. *



DAMN!!! Thats COLD!! Jim you gonna take that???


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## janeeng

I understood that your the only one with the FAT ASS!


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *An EMPLOYED loser, unlike yourself. Get off your fucking ass and get a job. *



Well, I'm glad you acknowledged you are a loser finally!

Where are you employed at, the local ice cream testing facility?

You might be the employed one out of the 2 of us, but I'd still be embarrassed if I were you. If you think having employment brings you class or intelligence you are sorely mistaken. I have more intelligence wrapped around my pinkie finger than you do in your entire fat body. Besides, my family does quite well, why do I need to currently be employed? I stay home currently and raise a wonderful child, and am extremely happy in doing so.

Do they offer chocolate chip mint where you work?


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## Joan

Is prostitution considered employment?


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Well, I'm glad you acknowledged you are a loser finally!
> 
> Where are you employed at, the local ice cream testing facility?
> 
> You might be the employed one out of the 2 of us, but I'd still be embarrassed if I were you. If you think having employment brings you class or intelligence you are sorely mistaken. I have more intelligence wrapped around my pinkie finger than you do in your entire fat body. Besides, my family does quite well, why do I need to currently be employed? I stay home currently and raise a wonderful child, and am extremely happy in doing so.
> 
> Do they offer chocolate chip mint where you work? *



Class? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If I were you I wouldn't bring up my supposed lack of class. And if you think intelligence is going around calling people whales in every second sentence then you have something else coming to you.

No, being employed doesn't make me more intelligent at all. But it makes me a productive human being. I guess slagging on these boards most of the day makes you productive? Not really, I'd say. I don't care if you're an at home dad, you're still a lazy fucking turd. Get off the computer for once and go raise your son like you supposedly claim you do.

No, unfortunately they don't offer chocolate chip mint where I work. But I wish they did. That would be nice!


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## janeeng

How the hell would you know how he or what he does with his Son? and talk about being on boards, well, posting or chatting is one thing, but spreading your fat ass legs for everyone to see, that's some real class! that's a REAL LADY ha???? but then again, I think your all talk anyway! someone who hides behind a computer.


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *How the hell would you know how he or what he does with his Son? and talk about being on boards, well, posting or chatting is one thing, but spreading your fat ass legs for everyone to see, that's some real class! that's a REAL LADY ha???? but then again, I think your all talk anyway! someone who hides behind a computer. *



And how the fuck would you know that I'm fat, you sorry little bint? And I'm spreading my legs for everyone to see? Talk about overreaching. Someone who hides being a computer...wasn't it jim who threatened kurtz not too long ago? Give me a break.


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## janeeng

little bint!!! please.  And your the filthy ho that talked and bragged to Kurtz on how you were going to go on cam for him to see you.  Post a picture of yourself then, but that's right you care about privacy, I had no problem posting mine! I have nothing to HIDE!!! I am not reaching for anything either.  I just happen to think your a complete ass! and someone that has nothing better to do but put someone and their child down, and that child is my Nephew and like I said, got something to say about my Nephew, why not come to NJ and let me know!


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *Class? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If I were you I wouldn't bring up my supposed lack of class. And if you think intelligence is going around calling people whales in every second sentence then you have something else coming to you.
> 
> No, being employed doesn't make me more intelligent at all. But it makes me a productive human being. I guess slagging on these boards most of the day makes you productive? Not really, I'd say. I don't care if you're an at home dad, you're still a lazy fucking turd. Get off the computer for once and go raise your son like you supposedly claim you do.
> 
> No, unfortunately they don't offer chocolate chip mint where I work. But I wish they did. That would be nice! *



No, intelligence is utilizing proper grammar and avoiding basic spelling mistakes in nearly every paragraph. Intelligence would be formulating a logical retort to statements you disagree with, something you have shown time and time again you are incapable of. You clearly lack fundamental communication skills. These are the basics you'll need to get a decent paying job should that be what you desire. You can claim till the cows come home, but I KNOW your job doesn't rely in any way shape or form on YOUR intelligence. I've got my degree and have been to 3 different colleges in 2 states. I've been employed in the same field since 1991. I've received 4 major promotions and countless raises. I've received more commendations on my work than you have sucked dick!

So I'm lazy? I get up every day at 5:30 am. Have a couple cups of coffee and shower. Change and bathe my son and prepare him for school. Feed him breakfast lunch & dinner. Change his diaper quite a few times throughout the day! Teach him the basics so he'll be able to properly spell and communicate as he grows up. Take him for AT LEAST 1/2 mile walk daily. Spend at least 1 hour in the yard every day with him and my dog playing so that he'll have some fun and respect his Dad. I do the wash for 3, including folding clothes. Take out garbage. Do the dishes almost daily.

Yeah, I'm lazy! I have respect from friends, family and neighbors. More importantly though, I have something you don't, self respect.


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *little bint!!! please.  And your the filthy ho that talked and bragged to Kurtz on how you were going to go on cam for him to see you.  Post a picture of yourself then, but that's right you care about privacy, I had no problem posting mine! I have nothing to HIDE!!! I am not reaching for anything either.  I just happen to think your a complete ass! and someone that has nothing better to do but put someone and their child down, and that child is my Nephew and like I said, got something to say about my Nephew, why not come to NJ and let me know! *



I never attacked his son, fool, just the "father". You're just grasping at straws now. And how many times do I have to tell your sorry ass that me and kurtz were jesting to annoying you pricks? But I don't think you'll ever fully comprehend it anyhow.

By the way, I'm not a gardening tool.


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## janeeng

Jesting us, how classy it was! your still a tramp! If you had any class, I doubt talking like that would have come out of your mouth.  I don't grasp for anything, and saying crap you don't know what your talking about I will defend, even if it is the FATHER! but I think he can handle you quite well.


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *No, intelligence is utilizing proper grammar and avoiding basic spelling mistakes in nearly every paragraph. Intelligence would be formulating a logical retort to statements you disagree with, something you have shown time and time again you are incapable of. You clearly lack fundamental communication skills. These are the basics you'll need to get a decent paying job should that be what you desire. You can claim till the cows come home, but I KNOW your job doesn't rely in any way shape or form on YOUR intelligence. I've got my degree and have been to 3 different colleges in 2 states. I've been employed in the same field since 1991. I've received 4 major promotions and countless raises. I've received more commendations on my work than you have sucked dick!
> 
> So I'm lazy? I get up every day at 5:30 am. Have a couple cups of coffee and shower. Change and bathe my son and prepare him for school. Feed him breakfast lunch & dinner. Change his diaper quite a few times throughout the day! Teach him the basics so he'll be able to properly spell and communicate as he grows up. Take him for AT LEAST 1/2 mile walk daily. Spend at least 1 hour in the yard every day with him and my dog playing so that he'll have some fun and respect his Dad. I do the wash for 3, including folding clothes. Take out garbage. Do the dishes almost daily.
> 
> Yeah, I'm lazy! I have respect from friends, family and neighbors. More importantly though, I have something you don't, self respect. *



Hah! Getting a little defensive now are we? And I'm the one who is?

If a couple of spelling and grammar mistakes speak about my intelligence, what do you have to say about janeeng's intelligence?

If you think a logical retort is calling someone a whale, you're a pitiful fool. It is called an ad hominem fallacy. Look it up.


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## janeeng

Yep, I don't do a spell check on here! that makes me a retard, ouch, you got me!!!! what an ass!


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *Hah! Getting a little defensive now are we? And I'm the one who is?
> 
> If a couple of spelling and grammar mistakes speak about my intelligence, what do you have to say about janeeng's intelligence?
> 
> If you think a logical retort is calling someone a whale, you're a pitiful fool. It is called an ad hominem fallacy. Look it up. *



Why would I need to be defensive when the entire board already knows me? I'm just setting your sorry ass straight.

My logical retorts can be found throughout ALL the forums. When spoken to in a civil manner you will be treated the same way in return. You tried it maybe once, were blown clear out of the water with facts, and have resorted to attacks ever since. I've now outclassed you with logical debates strictly speaking with facts, and have stepped on your fat ass with insults. You just can't win, can you?


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## Dom

Vyxgen- yea I might be only 14years old,but I can tell you that Jimnyc is a very intellgent person , more than you think ,Jim might be unemployed at the moment but atleast he is not working on the streets or at an ICE CREAM PALOR like you, I am sureHe loves is son and takes very good care of him and is a great father, but how the hell would you know or even say something like that without nothing to back it up, so if you have kids you Vyxgen should look in the mirror, YOU ARE A HOE!!! , and I am sure that that other guy is probaly your whoremaster husband that is on the board, 1 is a WHOREMASTER, and the other is a HOE! , the perfect coulp[e and the most uneducated basterds living,BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT  BRINGING A 2 YEAR OLD INNOCENT CHILD INTO THIS YOU FAT F**K,LIKE I said I only am 14, you are twice as old than me , and I have more consederation and respect then you whore except when it comes to people like YOU , which are ones that I hate!!!!

Do me a favor,....

DROP DEAD!


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Why would I need to be defensive when the entire board already knows me? I'm just setting your sorry ass straight.
> 
> My logical retorts can be found throughout ALL the forums. When spoken to in a civil manner you will be treated the same way in return. You tried it maybe once, were blown clear out of the water with facts, and have resorted to attacks ever since. I've now outclassed you with logical debates strictly speaking with facts, and have stepped on your fat ass with insults. You just can't win, can you? *



Um, excuse me. YOU'RE the one who started on the "fat" and illiterate bullshit again. Someone claimed that Canada's health care system is substandard, I said that if it was why do Canadians have a higher life expectancy, then you're the one who went on the "whale" shit again. So don't even fucking think of pinning this one on me. You're just projecting.


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## Dom

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *Um, excuse me. YOU'RE the one who started on the "fat" and illiterate bullshit again. Someone claimed that Canada's health care system is substandard, I said that if it was why do Canadians have a higher life expectancy, then you're the one who went on the "whale" shit again. So don't even fucking think of pinning this one on me. You're just projecting. *



IS THIS WHAT YOU SAY WHEN YOU ARE GEtTING SCREWED?

UMM EXCUSE ME , YOU ARE PUTTING IT IN THE WRONG HOLE!

hahahhahaahaha


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## Dom

Come on down to New Jersey bitch, I am waiting! or are you afraid!


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *Um, excuse me. YOU'RE the one who started on the "fat" and illiterate bullshit again. Someone claimed that Canada's health care system is substandard, I said that if it was why do Canadians have a higher life expectancy, then you're the one who went on the "whale" shit again. So don't even fucking think of pinning this one on me. You're just projecting. *



I'll quote from your very first 2 posts on this board:



> And I take it that someone with a pornographic avatar is supposed to have the intelligence of Aristotle?





> It was confined to 3 hospitals, not to the community, not to the airport or any other community place. But you seem to have your head so far up your right-wing ass that you're willing to believe whatever you want to believe.



AND THIS WAS BEFORE ANYONE EVEN RESPONDED TO YOUR POSTS!


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## eric

Hey idiot,

Please do not speak about class.  Jannen is right, she posted pictures of herself and her daughter out for a day together.  In which we saw a loving mom and a happle little girl.  Compare this to your offers to kurtz, and I do not care if you were joking or trying to piss people off, it still shows character.


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *I'll quote from your very first 2 posts on this board:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND THIS WAS BEFORE ANYONE EVEN RESPONDED TO YOUR POSTS! *



Um, EXCUSE ME, but how would you react if someone was saying that all "shitheads" in America deserved to die of SARS? That was an attack on me, as a Canadian, so my responses were rightfully in kind.


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by eric _
> *Hey idiot,
> 
> Please do not speak about class.  Jannen is right, she posted pictures of herself and her daughter out for a day together.  In which we saw a loving mom and a happle little girl.  Compare this to your offers to kurtz, and I do not care if you were joking or trying to piss people off, it still shows character. *



Hey liar ,

It wasn't me who brought up class. I never once claimed to have an iota of class on these boards. However, some people do, especially one particular person who is slagging me for jesting with kurtz but had an avatar of a smurf sucking a woman's breasts.

To put it kindly, I don't give two fucking shits about her picture.  I haven't seen it and to be quite honest, I don't even have the slightest inclination to see it. Just because she posted one doesn't mean I have to as well.


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## janeeng

Uh, EXCUSE ME! but I never started with the wishing everyone dead, I never wished anyone dead on this board, but you attacked!!!! so get it right next time! and thanks eric!


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *Um, EXCUSE ME, but how would you react if someone was saying that all "shitheads" in America deserved to die of SARS? That was an attack on me, as a Canadian, so my responses were rightfully in kind. *



This is the writing you responded to in your initial post, which you quoted when replying in fact!



> Well, I wasn't with the Canadians either when they sent that damn SARS here and claimed of no dangers of it there, and that travel should continue there, regardless of the outbreak of SARS there, and no one can tell me no. A student of mine brought SARS back from Canada after they were told NOT to go, but refused to listen!



So IF you were replying to what you *claim* you read, why didn't you quote it? Cause it was never said?

As a canadian, you are now a liar! YOU started with the attacks and the board search function will prove it. So much for that defense, huh?


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## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *This is the writing you responded to in your initial post, which you quoted when replying in fact!
> 
> 
> 
> So IF you were replying to what you *claim* you read, why didn't you quote it? Cause it was never said?
> 
> As a canadian, you are now a liar! YOU started with the attacks and the board search function will prove it. So much for that defense, huh? *



No, YOU did by creating a board such as this one in the first place. And you made it even worse by saying Canadians should die of SARS. Are you denying this? In fact, you said you wished MORE would die.

And not only that, but notice that the attacks subsided and people on this board had at least semi civil conversation? YOU'RE the one who started the bullshit again.


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *No, YOU did by creating a board such as this one in the first place. And you made it even worse by saying Canadians should die of SARS. Are you denying this? In fact, you said you wished MORE would die.
> 
> And not only that, but notice that the attacks subsided and people on this board had at least semi civil conversation? YOU'RE the one who started the bullshit again. *



I'll say whatever I want, when I want! It's my board! If you don't like the topic of conversation, or if you are offended, then why do you insist on coming back?

This board was created by an AMERICAN for AMERICANS! You decided to post because you didn't like what you read, which were general statements and opinions. YOU decided to make them personal by attacking an individual. 

You just don't get it, do you? You are like all the twits that complain about a particular radio station but refuse to turn the dial!


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## vyxen

Since we're going back to earlier this month, here are a few of your posts attacking all Canadians, to start with. BEFORE I even posted.

"Glad you jumped right in! Prepare for many mental beatings. Oh, nevermind, as a Canadian you have infinite experience."

"Well, I wasn't with the Canadians either when they sent that damn SARS here and claimed of no dangers of it there"

(WE didn't send SARS down there, and it is unlikely that janeen even knew someone in New Jersey who had SARS, because there were 3 cases, one probable, 2 suspect. That means only person had SARS in New Jersey. And guess what? That person was in their 40's. Unless janeen also drives 40 year olds to their arts and craft classes)

"In case you didn't notice, this is called the UNITED STATES message board. Of course we come here to make fun of Canada and France! It's almost too easy though, I feel a bit guilty. "

(Oh, just a side note..canadarocks NEVER made any personal attacks on you or anyone else on this board, but you called him a jerk and monkey ass or something like that)

And Canadarocks was even CORDIAL about it all

"I was just going to say the same thing... time to go. i see you guys need someone else to tell you right from wrong.

If you do not ban me I will be back. 

I fuked up on my id I wanted to put canadianpeacekeeper but that was too long so i ended up with canadianrocks, can I or someone change it to canadarocks???


Anyway, later."


Oh, BTW, canadarocks is an online friend of mine. He refered me to this board.

And this is when shit REALLY started to hit the fan...

"I don't recall her stating she was a teacher, but if that helps your weak argument, stick to it!

Too bad SARS didn't spread like wildfire throughout Canada and take out every last one of you pieces of cow dung."

Are you going to deny these comments?


----------



## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *I'll say whatever I want, when I want! It's my board! If you don't like the topic of conversation, or if you are offended, then why do you insist on coming back?
> 
> This board was created by an AMERICAN for AMERICANS! You decided to post because you didn't like what you read, which were general statements and opinions. YOU decided to make them personal by attacking an individual.
> 
> You just don't get it, do you? You are like all the twits that complain about a particular radio station but refuse to turn the dial! *



Fair enough. But don't claim to be the master of rational retorts when you make comments like that.


----------



## janeeng

Sorry vyxen, but get your facts straight, there were more than 3 cases in NJ of SARS, and what I said to you or your friend, was the fact that SARS did exist in CANADA and that I had a student who went there, even though they were told NOT TO! and the fact that they came back, and her Father was told no to go to work and had to be checked by a Nurse for 10 days.  I never said she had it! and as a matter of fact, I do drive some that are as old as 75, so there! The 40 year old you in your claim, was actually 36, who resides in South Jersey, not too far from where I am at.  A school that the company I work for, refused to pick up students in one location, due to SARS, this was their doing, not mine.  So, you should really get your FACTS straight before doubting what I say, or accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about.  And you know, personally, I could give a RATS ass what you think anyway.  As Jim would say, you don't like what  you read, then by all means, quietly exit out and don't let the door hit you in your FAT ASS on the way out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jackass

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *
> 
> So I'm lazy? I get up every day at 5:30 am. Have a couple cups of coffee and shower. Change and bathe my son and prepare him for school. Feed him breakfast lunch & dinner. Change his diaper quite a few times throughout the day! Teach him the basics so he'll be able to properly spell and communicate as he grows up. Take him for AT LEAST 1/2 mile walk daily. Spend at least 1 hour in the yard every day with him and my dog playing so that he'll have some fun and respect his Dad. I do the wash for 3, including folding clothes. Take out garbage. Do the dishes almost daily.
> 
> *



What a bitch!! HAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Jackass _
> *What a bitch!! HAHAHAHAHAHA *



Shut up, Jackass, before I come down to Va. and open up a can of whoop ass on you!

So, Jackass...

Do you think someone is "lazy" and should "get a fucking job" because they are a stay at home Dad? I know you have a bit of experience in this department, I'd like to hear your take!


----------



## Jackass

Taking care of kids in the hardest thing I have done. Not only physical, but mentally too. Your not allowed to be tired, cranky, lazy or sick.
For a man to be a stay at home Dad, it shows he is not too egotistical  to take a "less" manly road. It shows great character and a real gentle side for any man to do it. Men arent "supposed" to be the housekeepers. They are "supposed" to be the bread winners. 
For any man to decide this, take care of his kids and do it well, he has my UTMOST respect. That goes to any man who does it.


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Jackass _
> *Taking care of kids in the hardest thing I have done. Not only physical, but mentally too. Your not allowed to be tired, cranky, lazy or sick.
> For a man to be a stay at home Dad, it shows he is not too egotistical  to take a "less" manly road. It shows great character and a real gentle side for any man to do it. Men arent "supposed" to be the housekeepers. They are "supposed" to be the bread winners.
> For any man to decide this, take care of his kids and do it well, he has my UTMOST respect. That goes to any man who does it. *



At first I didn't do it by choice, but now I am (to an extent).

I get more gratification out of this than any job I've ever had!

Thanks for the post!


----------



## Jackass

I know you didnt at first. I can tell though..that you have really grabbed the bulls by the horns with it though. Im glad to see it too.
Even though money still sucks for us and I am only working at Costco right now..I am happier than I have been in years!! I think its cause I get to spend alot of quality time with my kids now. I really love it!


----------



## janeeng

Glad to see you both feel this way! and I know you both are doing great jobs and love your kids to death.  Why even listen to what vyxen has to say!!! coming from her, she would be the last person I would have to explain things to.  I doubt she has kids and pretty much proves in her posts.  Just too bad a lot more Father's weren't like you both or have attitudes like you both! Good job guys!


----------



## Jackass

Why thank you Janeen!


----------



## janeeng

Your quite welcome Chuck!  Good to see a good man that loves his kids!!!!!


----------



## vyxen

Hardy hardy har har.

Hardy hardy har har.

This world rocks.


----------



## Jackass

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *Hardy hardy har har.
> 
> Hardy hardy har har.
> 
> This world rocks. *



Whats that supposed to mean?


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Jackass _
> *Whats that supposed to mean? *



I am hungry

I am hungry

Gimme more ice cream


----------



## janeeng

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! think maybe she is jealous!


----------



## Jackass

No really..I want to know what she meant by that ver eloquent statement.


----------



## janeeng

Chuck, your lucky if she will even bother to explain her stupidity! don't you see she is plain out making fun of you and Jim for being such good Daddy's! and the fact that I commented on the situation.  She is an idiot!  She should only wish that her man is as good as you guys, and another one is NT, I know he is the same as you guys too! another guy that worships his kids.  vyxen, I doubt has kids, and I kinda doubt she is even married, but who cares anyway.


----------



## eric

Jannen is right why even bother to listen to her.  It is quite plain that she attacks everything that is lacking in her meager existence like class, values, a family, children, intelligence, money, stability, self-respect. Need I go on ?

Go on idiot respond to this post with your vulgar, unintelligent, classless replies, I need a good laugh !  Because you are the object of ridicule and you do not even know it. How pathetic !


----------



## Jackass

Well I was hoping to give her a cahnce to explain herself. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, since she still hasnt explained herself, then you guys are right.


----------



## Spirit_Soul

> _Originally posted by Dom _
> *Vyxgen- yea I might be only 14years old,but I can tell you that ...
> 
> ...said I only am 14, you are twice as old than me , and I have more consederation and respect then you whore except when it comes to people like YOU , which are ones that I hate!!!!
> 
> Do me a favor,....
> 
> DROP DEAD! *




If you are fourteen, what were you doing in an adult forum 18+? 

You should choose your words more carefully...


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Spirit_Soul _
> *If you are fourteen, what were you doing in an adult forum 18+?
> 
> You should choose your words more carefully... *



The registration process doesn't say minors are forbidden, it just states that you need permission from the board administrator.

Dom was invited here by me.

He's a bit wacky, but he's ok to be here.


----------



## Spirit_Soul

Our country is just a total cultural mess... whom you allow and whom you don't allow in the adult forum is your business, but I think you are making a mistake by letting in a kid in there...

Just a suggestion.


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Spirit_Soul _
> *Our country is just a total cultural mess... whom you allow and whom you don't allow in the adult forum is your business, but I think you are making a mistake by letting in a kid in there...
> 
> Just a suggestion. *



If our country is such a cultural mess as you speak of, minors will be much better off at home visiting a message board!

Your point is taken though. Dominick is a family friend and has already seen worse in life than this board will offer.

And I didn't write the TOS for entry to the board, that was written by the developers of the board.

I think you'll agree that much worse can be found on the internet than a board where we share our political beliefs, family pictures, jokes & our favorite sports teams.


----------



## janeeng

Yes, Dominick has seen worse that what has EVER been posted on this board.  True, I feel a CHILD shouldn't be on a computer that can get beyond what they need for school, period! but unless a parent can block certain things, they will always be out there and curious.  And even if you block smutt, there is still forums and jokes and certain graphics for a kid to get to.  Dominick was told by us about certain graphic natures, words, etc.. but at the same time vyxen started with him as well, and I think he kept himself under somewhat control with the drop dead! 

But, your right Spirit, if he weren't someone we knew, I might have banned his butt by now!


----------



## Isaac Brock

Say what you want about Chretien, he's done a lot of boneheaded stuff, but you know what?  I'd rather have a PM, president or whatever you want to call your head of state or in our case representative of state, be an idiot some of the time, than an evil meglomaniac with a napoleonic complex all the time. 

US is great, but if it keeps up like this... it's going to run out of friends pretty soon, which is a shame cause there are a lot of nice americans out there.


----------



## eric

Hi Isaac, welcome !


----------



## jimnyc

Welcome aboard, Isaac!


----------



## NightTrain

> than an evil meglomaniac with a napoleonic complex all the time.




I have to assume you're talking about Bush?   Really?


Why do you feel our President is an evil meglomaniac with a napolenonic complex?


----------



## eric

NT, they are used to Slick Willy, the draft dodger !


----------



## Isaac Brock

> _Originally posted by NightTrain _
> *I have to assume you're talking about Bush?   Really?
> 
> 
> Why do you feel our President is an evil meglomaniac with a napolenonic complex? *



Cheers partially misguided Canadian bashers

It would cite two examples due to lack of time:

1.  His recent war in Iraq seemed little more than a debacle to topple a oil rich country and give out large engineering a reconstrunction contracts to his buddies.  I would cite Halliburton as the main centre of my thesis.  His orignal _cassius belli_ was to destroy WMD.  However Iran and North Korea are readily admitting they have programs and not only that are rattling their sabre.  Still, Bush would appear to be, from a diplomatic and military stand point, sitting on his proverbial thumbs.  Doesn't that strike you as odd from a crusader against WMD and terrorism?  I certainly hope it wasn't to fix daddy's mistakes that would indeed be most cruel.

2.  His under-the-radar elimination of the EPA's Clean Air laws.  Eliminate the requirement for power plants to upgrade their environmental controls including, but not exclusive to the emissions of Ozone, NOx, SO2 and particulate emissions.  Now the savy observer would say "Hey he's put out a new regulation for air pollution that targets NOx, SO2".  This is true, but if you get down to the nitty gritty, his requirements would require little more than the most basic air filter be installed at plants, wheras the technology is there to not only boost plant efficiency, but improve air pollution using catalytic air scrubbers.

Evil?  Sending your fellow americans to die in a war that no one can figure out the main cause of war with the exception of rather insideous pretexts, is evil in my books.

Meglomaniac?  Projecting american power in a non-peaceful content during a time where domestic security is paramount would seem to a world observer to be no less imperialistic than that of the 18th and 19th century British.

Napoleonic Complex?  Perhaps unfair, but in the minds of many, Bush would be an excellent candidate for this trait especially.

Now I think it would be fair to apply the traits of meglomaniac and napoleonic complex to chretien especially with his "legacy" for when he retires, but I genuinely think he's got a bit of Trudeauism in his blood and trying to mark himself in history, positively, as he sees it.  Whether or not he is indeed doing that is completely different matter open for debate.


----------



## NightTrain

A good post, I'll respond tonight when I get home from work.


----------



## NightTrain

I'm not sure if you've perused the other forums yet, I've already touched on a few of these points :

Since '91, several things have happened that proved to the world that Saddam was more of a threat than originally thought.

A) Saddam attempted to have a former U.S. President assassinated.

B) The Czechs caught one of Saddam's toadies meeting with Mohammed Atta (remember that great guy?) & promptly expelled him.

C) Since there was a proven Al Qaeda / Saddam connection, we couldn't afford to take the chance of Saddam giving one of his newfound friends a weapon that was capable of wiping out millions of Americans or our Allies. 

D) The new-n-improved foriegn policy states that we will make no distinction between terrorists and the States that harbor them. Saddam clearly had terrorist links & you can't dispute that.

E) After 9/11, it was painfully made clear to us that we couldn't afford to sit back and wait for terrorist plots to mature - being proactive rather than reactive is the new watchword. To not actively eliminate threats before they arrive on our shores would be completely asinine.


Your point number 2... really doesn't interest me so I'm not up on what the latest Greenie issues are.   I live in Alaska & it's pretty damn pristine... I could care less about Cleveland or Detroit's ecological problems; if they're unhappy with things they are always able to pass stricter local pollution laws - there is nothing wrong with that course of action.   Blaming the Federal guidelines (and the President, for that matter) is a very weak thing to do, and only uneducated sheep buy into the argument that they are unable to control what pollution is occurring at the local level.

See, you cannot have a State (or city, county, etc.) law _more lax_ than Federal laws; but you _can make them more strict_ - and that is done much more frequently than not.



> Evil? Sending your fellow americans to die in a war that no one can figure out the main cause of war with the exception of rather insideous pretexts, is evil in my books.



See my response to your first point.



> Meglomaniac? Projecting american power in a non-peaceful content during a time where domestic security is paramount would seem to a world observer to be no less imperialistic than that of the 18th and 19th century British.



Again, see my first response.   Also, do you understand what 'Imperialistic' means?   I'm not sure you do.

Our domestic security seems to be well in hand since 9/11, wouldn't you agree?   Seems to an American observer that we're very capable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously.



> Napoleonic Complex? Perhaps unfair, but in the minds of many, Bush would be an excellent candidate for this trait especially.



Speculation & certainly opinion.  I'll pass.


----------



## Isaac Brock

For the most part a well thought out a polite response, so i'm inclined to do the same.



> _Originally posted by NightTrain _
> *I'm not sure if you've perused the other forums yet, I've already touched on a few of these points :
> 
> Since '91, several things have happened that proved to the world that Saddam was more of a threat than originally thought.
> 
> A) Saddam attempted to have a former U.S. President assassinated.
> 
> B) The Czechs caught one of Saddam's toadies meeting with Mohammed Atta (remember that great guy?) & promptly expelled him.
> 
> C) Since there was a proven Al Qaeda / Saddam connection, we couldn't afford to take the chance of Saddam giving one of his newfound friends a weapon that was capable of wiping out millions of Americans or our Allies.
> 
> D) The new-n-improved foriegn policy states that we will make no distinction between terrorists and the States that harbor them. Saddam clearly had terrorist links & you can't dispute that.
> 
> E) After 9/11, it was painfully made clear to us that we couldn't afford to sit back and wait for terrorist plots to mature - being proactive rather than reactive is the new watchword. To not actively eliminate threats before they arrive on our shores would be completely asinine.
> 
> *


* 

I understand your points quite clearly and have heard it many times before.  I have heard many of these Iraq-Al Qaeda "proven" connections that have been purpotted by both the intellegence community and media in general.  I believe i am in no position to refute what they say because quite simply I am not in an intelligence agency.  However, the past would indeed show that what the intelligence community says to the public can distort the truth somewhat to an extent that .  For example:

1) British intelligence dossier on WMD programs used by both the British and the US as the cassius belli for the Iraq war.  Entire sections were taken from undergraduate thesis based on literature searches and from the web.  The dossier was brought up in english  parliament and an official apology made for those sections.

2)  American WMD dossier with locations of "current" WMD sites.  They came, the went, the conquered they looked.  In fact your SoS even showed these photos in the UN.  Inspector's prior to the war reviewed the same mobile WMD factories and found no trace.  Bad luck?  Maybe, but i don't care whether they truly thought they were mobile factories or not.  The point is moot.  The fact is that they were wrong.

I'm not saying that the US intelligence community deceitful or always wrong.  Far from it.. many good deeds have come from it.  The point is that the case was not made for the whole WMD.  

Now let me be very clear.  If the US said to Iraq, "Hey!  You're oppressing your people and i have proof you have ties to terrorists (which I certainly would disagree with you and say that it is a grey area at best, but will give you the benefit of the doubt) and change or I will change it for you." I would have much more respect for that.  I'd okay i may not agree with the methods, but yeah i can respect that, but we all know that not to be the case for war, they certainly pumped up that angle when the WMD didn't surface.

I simply ask you this as a moderate Canadian, who is not anti-american in any way.  Was Iraq really a greater threat to world peace and security than Iran or N. Korea, both who are suspected of having or actively pursuing nuclear weapons.  I believe NK has even stated it would pursue a first strike strategy if conflict arose with the US in any capacity?  Iran is huge in harbouring islamic militants and probably many times more that Iraq.  

So Why Iraq?  Why not the greater threats?  If the goal is to liberate oppressive regimes, why not Libya, Lebanon, Myanmar and Saudi Arabia?  I'm afraid i think i know the answer to that question... and i think you might too.






			Your point number 2... really doesn't interest me so I'm not up on what the latest Greenie issues are.   I live in Alaska & it's pretty damn pristine... I could care less about Cleveland or Detroit's ecological problems; if they're unhappy with things they are always able to pass stricter local pollution laws - there is nothing wrong with that course of action.   Blaming the Federal guidelines (and the President, for that matter) is a very weak thing to do, and only uneducated sheep buy into the argument that they are unable to control what pollution is occurring at the local level.

See, you cannot have a State (or city, county, etc.) law more lax than Federal laws; but you can make them more strict - and that is done much more frequently than not.
		
Click to expand...


I'm sorry my point doesn't interest you, but it doesn't make it any more or less valid.  I respectfully believe that you are dead wrong in your assessment of federal environmental regulations.  Federal environmental guidelines, like we have in Canada, close the loophole of allowing the moving of mass polluting industries and power generators to areas with looser controls, to provide power and services for areas with the strict controls.  It simply levels the playing ground.  As for the link to the president, there's nothing weak about it, it was his bill, and his buddies will indeed greatly benefit from it.  I see nothing wrong with my train of logic.





			Again, see my first response.   Also, do you understand what 'Imperialistic' means?   I'm not sure you do.

Our domestic security seems to be well in hand since 9/11, wouldn't you agree?   Seems to an American observer that we're very capable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously.
		
Click to expand...

 
Please do not insult my intelligence as I would not venture to insult yours.  I know very well what imperialistic means and am aware of its use in my context.  If i was to draw a parallel in past history I would bring up:

1.  The Austro-Hungarian invasion of Serbia in 1914 that used the murder of the Archduke to justify the "pacification" of Serbs to promote "security" in the balkans

2.  Similarily the many Russian invasion of Polland to "protect" their fellow slavic brothers from the grasp of germany.

3.  The turkish invasion of cyprus to "protect" the Turkish minority.

I certainly hope that Iraq will not join that list and hold out hope nonetheless.  As for domestic security, my friend I wish you all the best unlike what you may or may not think Canada would never wish another 9/11 for you.  Domestic security is certainly tighter now doubt and frankly, as it should be.  However, as an outside observer I simply believe that your foreign policy will ignate the powderkeg of hatred on all sides (I can already see it now in both the Middle East and the rise and anti-Islam in america) and i don't think any domestic security system in the world could help you then.  But let us both hope that it never comes to that.

Cheers.
P.S. Mind any spelling or grammatic mistakes, it is late and i simply too tired to reread.*


----------



## NightTrain

A superb post, thank you.   I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence, as you've shown you're obviously educated & polite, to boot.  

I get annoyed that the 'Imperialistic' label gets thrown around like it does, so my apologies if I sounded insulting.   If the USA was truly Imperialistic, we'd own a tremendous amount of real estate in Europe,  the Far East & the Middle East.

I'll respond further tomorrow... it's late here & I'm beat.

Shakes,
NT


----------



## eric

Yes NT, I must agree, finally a gentleman with whom you can debate in an intellectual manner.  Isaac, please excuse us, if some of our previous posts carry a sharp edge.  We many times find ourselves debating with people who want nothing more than an argument or to make a political statement.  They are not here for debate or intellectual discussion but rather to force their narrow point of view. There is no free exchange of ideas, just argument.


----------



## Isaac Brock

Thank you for your warm reception.  You will probably find me to be a moderate in most things, but opinions, where opinions are due.  

I am a proud Canadian no doubt, but that hardly blinds me from Canada's own problems (and I am aware of many) and I would expect the same in your pairs of shoes.  As far as I'm concerned, "My country, right or wrong" is complete rubbish on any side!

I look forward to discussing and debating issues relating to my country and elsewhere as long as blind hatred does not get invloved which incenses me greatly.  

Always keep two pints on the table and your wits about.  Don't worry, you'll do fine.


----------



## NightTrain

> 1) British intelligence dossier on WMD programs used by both the British and the US as the cassius belli for the Iraq war. Entire sections were taken from undergraduate thesis based on literature searches and from the web. The dossier was brought up in english parliament and an official apology made for those sections.



Yep.   The Brits really did have a few things go embarassingly wrong.   Heads rolled, and probably will continue to roll over that and a couple of other mishaps that recently happened within their intel community.



> 2) American WMD dossier with locations of "current" WMD sites. They came, the went, the conquered they looked. In fact your SoS even showed these photos in the UN. Inspector's prior to the war reviewed the same mobile WMD factories and found no trace. Bad luck? Maybe, but i don't care whether they truly thought they were mobile factories or not. The point is moot. The fact is that they were wrong.



No question that American intel was wrong in where they said the WMD sites where - _AFTER_ the boots hit the ground, that is.   I'm pretty sure there was good evidence & spy reports as to where they were prior to the invasion.   

Where are they now?  I don't know.   You can bet that Israel is actively trying to find that out - they want to know where they went probably more than we do.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that Saddam didn't have his WMD playtoys - otherwise, why would he play the games he played?  It wasn't just the USA that said he had them - every nation involved in the UNSC knew they had them, and demanded that he comply with resolutions for inspections.   The whole world watched that cat-and-mouse game.

Besides, another fact that seems to get overlooked is that he had them and used them in the past.   Documented fact.  No country that I'm aware of has ever acquired WMDs and later washed its hands of them.  



> I simply ask you this as a moderate Canadian, who is not anti-american in any way. Was Iraq really a greater threat to world peace and security than Iran or N. Korea, both who are suspected of having or actively pursuing nuclear weapons. I believe NK has even stated it would pursue a first strike strategy if conflict arose with the US in any capacity? Iran is huge in harbouring islamic militants and probably many times more that Iraq.



I would say that the proven Al Qaeda connections demanded immediate attention.   Things developed mighty fast & there was suddenly a great urgency to protect America NOW.   Time to wrap up things that could be dealt with immediately.   

Was Iraq a greater threat than Iran?  Yep.   But, they're still dirty, and everyone knows it.  With any luck, the democracy next door will take care of the Iran problem from within.

North Korea?  I don't know.   There wasn't evidence that I'm aware of with NK conspiring with known terrorists - let alone one that ended up flying an airliner into the WTC.  However, NK is going to require a little bit different of an approach, for obvious reasons.   It's a more dangerous animal, to be sure, and they haven't been forgotten.   They're under a microscope, and have been ever since they admitted they'd been lying about their nuclear program.

Why not the other 'evil' countries?  One at a time


As far as your EPA argument goes.. I've always been of the opinon that things are always more fair all the way around when dealt with on a local level.   If there's an industry that's being irresponsible, then there is room for improvement in State laws - which are almost always implemented faster than the Federal beauracracy can manage.   



> Domestic security is certainly tighter now doubt and frankly, as it should be. However, as an outside observer I simply believe that your foreign policy will ignate the powderkeg of hatred on all sides (I can already see it now in both the Middle East and the rise and anti-Islam in america) and i don't think any domestic security system in the world could help you then. But let us both hope that it never comes to that.



Amen.

But I don't see any other course of action that's feasible other than the course we're on right now.   We didn't ask for the mission to eradicate militant muslims, it landed in our lap.  Literally.   There's only one language those animals understand, and that's brute force.

Eight years of a weak President led up to this, and now we're paying for his weakness in spades.


----------



## Bry

Really enjoyed those Bushisms, Vyxen.  That's some funny shit.  

Speaking of funny shit, these attempted "rebuttals" from JIMnJANEENG are about as half-witted as they come.  Not response-worthy.  

Cheers!


----------



## janeeng

Who asked for your opinion anyway? You think I come on here looking for scores on how good of a post or not it was? I come on here to make fun of people like you, asswipe!


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Bry _
> *Really enjoyed those Bushisms, Vyxen.  That's some funny shit.
> 
> Speaking of funny shit, these attempted "rebuttals" from JIMnJANEENG are about as half-witted as they come.  Not response-worthy.
> 
> Cheers! *



Go die from Sars, you drunk uneducated canadian dolt!

I'm betting top dollar you're just one of that fat bastards friends! 

Well, no matter, an opinion from a canadian is like an opinion from a rock.


----------



## 5stringJeff

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

jim and jane, you two are too funny!  

I'm not much of a roaster... but that's too funny.


----------



## Bry

> _Originally posted by janeeng _
> *Who asked for your opinion anyway? You think I come on here looking for scores on how good of a post or not it was? I come on here to make fun of people like you, asswipe! *



ah, shutup you blowhard ass-kissing Jimnyc echo.  I have no time.


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Bry _
> *ah, shutup you blowhard ass-kissing Jimnyc echo.  I have no time. *



Try this maneuver: Take 50-60 paces backwards. Take several deep breaths. Sprint forward at full speed doing a triple somersault through the air, and disappear up your own asshole that you're busy talking out of.


----------



## janeeng

shut up, not that's just so intelligent, sorry, I don't believe in ass kissing with my Brother! You sorry excuse for living! go away you MOLE!!!!


----------



## Bry

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Go die from Sars, you drunk uneducated canadian dolt!
> 
> I'm betting top dollar you're just one of that fat bastards friends!
> 
> Well, no matter, an opinion from a canadian is like an opinion from a rock. *



Another fascinating take from a blithering idiot!  thanks for going out of your way to prove my previous post.  

I've no connection to Vyxen.  In fact that was my first post.  But I don't need to read too much to see your responses are inappropriate.  

And I'm not uneducated, nor drunk, nor Canadian.  But Isaac is clearly the only poster here with a brain on his shoulders, and he's canadian.  Perhaps you'd like to forward your insults on to him!

Have a nice day.  OOps, yours son must be home from school by now, and I'm sure there's dinner to prepare.


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## janeeng

Yes, be gone LOSER!! go back in your hold TROLL!


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Bry _
> *Another fascinating take from a blithering idiot!  thanks for going out of your way to prove my previous post.
> 
> I've no connection to Vyxen.  In fact that was my first post.  But I don't need to read too much to see your responses are inappropriate.
> 
> And I'm not uneducated, nor drunk, nor Canadian.  But Albert is clearly the only poster here with a brain on his shoulders, and he's canadian.  Perhaps you'd like to forward your insults on to him!
> 
> Have a nice day.  OOps, yours son must be home from school by now, and I'm sure there's dinner to prepare. *



Am I supposed to care that you think my responses are inappropriate? You and your opinions can suck my ass.

You come here solely to start trouble and illicit responses, and by golly you'll get them!

Now, get lost, before I slap you on the back of your head and knock your dick-shaped Popsicle out.


----------



## Bry

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Am I supposed to care that you think my responses are inappropriate? You and your opinions can suck my ass.
> 
> You come here solely to start trouble and illicit responses, and by golly you'll get them!
> 
> Now, get lost, before I slap you on the back of your head and knock your dick-shaped Popsicle out. *



Actually, super-dad, I came here to read intelligent, measured, thoughtful posts and partake in the debate if I had something to contribute.  I actually enjoyed some of what you said in the first post; well, at least it was well written.  Then, the RIDICULOUS response to the Bushisms, as if Bush is above critique!  If your idea of a rebuttal is calling someone you've never seen fat and ugly, or threatening to slap someone in the head over an internet connection, you're obviously not the most even-keeled of souls. 

But hey, you'll get your wish.  I certainly have no intention of sticking around here.


----------



## jimnyc

Bye! I'll be sad to see you go!


----------



## Isaac Brock

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> 
> 
> Well, no matter, an opinion from a canadian is like an opinion from a rock. [/B]



Careful, branding an entire people with one brush is a good way to make enemies fairly quickly and look fairly silly yourself, no matter how misguided you may think the one individual is.   I believe it was one of your great presidents, Abe, who said "'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."


----------



## Isaac Brock

Hi NT,
An excellent and well argued post.  I will not post again until a bit later due to the fact that I am racing in a regatta in your fair country.




> _Originally posted by NightTrain _
> 
> 
> Where are they [WMD] now?  I don't know.   You can bet that Israel is actively trying to find that out - they want to know where they went probably more than we do.
> 
> I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that Saddam didn't have his WMD playtoys - otherwise, why would he play the games he played?  It wasn't just the USA that said he had them - every nation involved in the UNSC knew they had them, and demanded that he comply with resolutions for inspections.   The whole world watched that cat-and-mouse game.
> 
> Besides, another fact that seems to get overlooked is that he had them and used them in the past.   Documented fact.  No country that I'm aware of has ever acquired WMDs and later washed its hands of them.



I agree with most of what you are saying.  I have no doubt that Iraq once had WMD.  His chemical program was well known prior to the gulf war and I know he used them on the Kurdish population to the North as well as, if memory serves, Iran during the Iran and Iraq war.  Use of WMD is abhorrent in my mind as well as I would imagine the vast majority of Canadians in any circumstance.  However, the US did invade Iraq once in what i would say was a completely just war and the US did dismantle much of that program.  It is truly a shame that your country did not remove Saddam and that Ba'athists at that moment, but that is a completely seperate and unrelated matter to discuss.

Does the fact that he did have them logically insist that he has them now?  Well the only answer can be no, since althought the past is an excellent indicator of the future, it is not magical orb that can see into it.  In a lot of ways, the whole question and debate will be stalemated for at least the foreseable future.  I don't think at this moment you can truly say without a doubt that yes, Saddam had WMD at the time of the invastion, but nor can I say that he did not.  History will undoubtably prove one of us right someday and then we will indeed see if the pretext was warrented.

So I guess the next question I will ask to you is whether the Iraq war will make the US any more secure or the lives of Iraqis any better.  Perhaps, it is too soon to lay judgement or even speculate for that matter, but as a pure gut feeling with perhaps some context in history I would say that the US certainly fanned the flames of anti-americanism not only in the middle-east or with muslims, but also will fellow allies.  Regardless of right or wrong, the US's decision to go at it without international cooperation from the majority of its main allies, leaves its in an akward strategic situation.  

In a lot of sense it has polarized the western world.  On one hand you have France, Germany and Russia who seemed to have formed a bond around opposing the US action, then there's Britain, who's people are, as i understand, mostly against the invasion, althought their government-elect is not.  Then there are countries like Canada who admittedly are sitting on the fence.  On the ideological side, we are much like the Europeans, opposed to the war based on principle (which I can go into if you do not understand), but then again our bond with America is longlasting and all encompasing.  Essentially the Iraq war took all what was stable in the world, tossed in up, and created a new world dynamic.

I won't even go into the revenge attacks by extremists that will no doubtably increase.  So i guess in a nutshell, i think war will make things worse for america in the long run, but i am looking forward to what you think.  And yes, i have forgotten to mention the Iraqi people, but time is running short.



> Was Iraq a greater threat than Iran?  Yep.   But, they're still dirty, and everyone knows it.  With any luck, the democracy next door will take care of the Iran problem from within.
> 
> North Korea?  I don't know.   There wasn't evidence that I'm aware of with NK conspiring with known terrorists - let alone one that ended up flying an airliner into the WTC.  However, NK is going to require a little bit different of an approach, for obvious reasons.   It's a more dangerous animal, to be sure, and they haven't been forgotten.   They're under a microscope, and have been ever since they admitted they'd been lying about their nuclear program.
> 
> Why not the other 'evil' countries?  One at a time



Well, I simply disagree what you think your greatest threat is, but then again, I am not american.  This is especially due to the fact that i truly don't believe Iraq had a "significant" terrorist link.   If you guys are truly worried about terrorism, go after the anti-american Theocracies such as Iran.  That's not to mention the radical anti-americanism that is taught to many lower-class Saudi Arabians is government funded (though not always controlled) schools.  



> As far as your EPA argument goes.. I've always been of the opinon that things are always more fair all the way around when dealt with on a local level.   If there's an industry that's being irresponsible, then there is room for improvement in State laws - which are almost always implemented faster than the Federal beauracracy can manage.



A differing opinion than mine, but i see where you're coming from and i agree in many situations (ie watershed issues, forestation), but in my opinion some controls, especially environmental regulations with area/region effects should be controlled federally.



> Amen.
> 
> But I don't see any other course of action that's feasible other than the course we're on right now.   We didn't ask for the mission to eradicate militant muslims, it landed in our lap.  Literally.   There's only one language those animals understand, and that's brute force.
> 
> Eight years of a weak President led up to this, and now we're paying for his weakness in spades. [/B]



Just remember, every cause has an effect and though i find militant muslim terrorists (or christian, jewish, hindu and sikh) abhorrent, though sometime force is required, the US must find away to not only treat the symptoms of terrorisms, but the US and the world in general for that matter, must find away to root out the cause of terrorism.

And once again... forgive my spelling and grammar... i simply must sleep.  Cheers


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Isaac Brock _
> *Careful, branding an entire people with one brush is a good way to make enemies fairly quickly and look fairly silly yourself, no matter how misguided you may think the one individual is.   I believe it was one of your great presidents, Abe, who said "'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." *



Fair enough, Isaac. My apologies.

You came onto the board and have made your debates with class. You are apparently an exception to the *rule*. I try to treat people here the way they treat others. If someone comes here simply to bash, they will get it 10 fold in return. While others may read my comments and get agitated, they are there simply to piss off the person I am replying to. 

By the way, Welcome aboard


----------



## Man of 1951

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Well, no matter, an opinion from a canadian is like an opinion from a rock. *



whether your 'intent' was to offend one person on the forum, you are involving an entire people along with that one person. So if you plan on offending one person, trying doing just that.


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Man of 1951 _
> *whether your 'intent' was to offend one person on the forum, you are involving an entire people along with that one person. So if you plan on offending one person, trying doing just that. *



When I want your advice, I'll ask for it. Until then I'll feel free to speak however I please.

Thank You


----------



## Man of 1951

....just as i am free to advice however i choose.


Thanks anyway


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## Man of 1951

before you accuse me of being illiterate, and extropolate that to include all canadians....i meant advise not advice


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Man of 1951 _
> *before you accuse me of being illiterate, and extropolate that to include all canadians....i meant advise not advice *



Did you mean "extrapolate"?


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Man of 1951 _
> *....just as i am free to advice however i choose.
> 
> 
> Thanks anyway *



Ummmm.... Not entirely. Your free to advise however the hell you want on this board, but you won't be advising me on how I should post.


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## Man of 1951

Actually i am free advise however the hell i want to, and i can advise you as i please....but you are also free to accept or reject my advice. And my advise was simply for you to not contradict yourself by saying you make fun of an entire ppl with the intent of offending a single person....whether its your intent or not, you are also offending an entire ppl. So please stop with the racist comments you make about entire ppl, and with all the generalization you make, even if you are trying to offend a single person. Call them a shame of whatever their nationality is, but don't generalize about all who share that nationality because for one, it'll discredit you as a reasonable person, and two it just creates more anger, and thus more comments that'll make this board more like a median to express irrational comments than a median to transfer different perspectives and information.

Thanks for the spell check


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## janeeng

Shut up dipshit!!!! I think the point was taken already and don't need your 2 cents!


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## Man of 1951

....right......too bad i no longer really care what you think


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## janeeng

DITTO!


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Man of 1951 _
> *Actually i am free advise however the hell i want to, and i can advise you as i please....but you are also free to accept or reject my advice. *



Actually, no, you won't advise me on my posting "as you please". This will be the last post on the subject. Debate me all you like about my opinions, but don't tell me how I should post on the board I own.


----------



## NightTrain

Issac :



> So I guess the next question I will ask to you is whether the Iraq war will make the US any more secure or the lives of Iraqis any better. Perhaps, it is too soon to lay judgement or even speculate for that matter, but as a pure gut feeling with perhaps some context in history I would say that the US certainly fanned the flames of anti-americanism not only in the middle-east or with muslims, but also will fellow allies. Regardless of right or wrong, the US's decision to go at it without international cooperation from the majority of its main allies, leaves its in an akward strategic situation.



Believe it or not, I really do think the Iraq war will benefit the USA and the world.   

I think everyone can agree that the middle east has a very real and complex problem with extremism.   I don't think it's due entirely to the financial situation of John Q. Public  there, but I do think it's a part of it.

What's in common with all of the countries that have terrorists springing up?   Fundamentalist Islamic governments.   You've got a very small number of people controlling 99% of that country's wealth and resources.   In order to maintain their cush positions, they have to divert attention away from the government (who is really responsible for the peasants' plight) to another scapegoat.   These days, that would be America.   Israel, it goes without saying, is always there to take the heat.

Religion should be separate from government to prevent religious leaders of a certain faith from oppressing & murdering people of differing faiths.   It can do great good, but also great evil.

With a democracy established in Iraq (and I really don't know how we're going to introduce the concept of separation of Church and State and that's going to be crucial), the people of Iraq will begin to enjoy the freedoms and liberty that all of us in North America and Europe take for granted.   Then a person can go as far as his/her ambitions take them based on that person's abilities, rather than who they're related to or what faith they are.

When that happens, all of the neighboring countries are going to sit up and take notice - and wonder why they can't have what the Iraqis have.   

It's the Domino theory, and I sure as hell hope it works - if there is a successful Democracy established in Iraq, I don't see how it can fail.  It's been done in the past, and I'm optimistic about this attempt.

Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the others are all watching very closely this attempt of ours to give the Iraqis a modern government, and they know what's at stake - their positions and very possibly their lives.   The last thing they want is a flourishing democracy next door - that's why there are so many foriegn fighters showing up and fighting our troops, and assassinating any new Iraqi official trying to move forward with reconstruction.



> I won't even go into the revenge attacks by extremists that will no doubtably increase. So i guess in a nutshell, i think war will make things worse for america in the long run, but i am looking forward to what you think. And yes, i have forgotten to mention the Iraqi people, but time is running short.



I disagree.   We haven't had any more attacks on American soil since the gloves came off.   The terrorists wanted a fight, and we're giving it to them in spades.  

With the Domino Theory, I think we're on the road to a much more peaceful world.   



> Well, I simply disagree what you think your greatest threat is, but then again, I am not american. This is especially due to the fact that i truly don't believe Iraq had a "significant" terrorist link. If you guys are truly worried about terrorism, go after the anti-american Theocracies such as Iran. That's not to mention the radical anti-americanism that is taught to many lower-class Saudi Arabians is government funded (though not always controlled) schools.



I think if we had to pick just one country that was the biggest threat, in 2002, Iraq would be number one.  Closely followed by a host of other countries.  It's more of a _regional_ threat rather than just one country.   

The whole region needs changing, so that clerics that preach their hate-filled messages to the masses no longer have a leg to stand on.   If you're content, comfortable, free, gainfully employed & have a future to look forward to, would you listen to an idiot screeching about blowing yourself up to kill the infidels?   Sure, there'll always be a few lunatics around, but the majority won't have any reason to follow.

How did your regatta racing turn out?   Did you take the Gold?


----------



## Man of 1951

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Actually, no, you won't advise me on my posting "as you please". This will be the last post on the subject. Debate me all you like about my opinions, but don't tell me how I should post on the board I own. *



Then tell me, are you a supporter of free speech?


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Man of 1951 _
> *Then tell me, are you a supporter of free speech? *



You're barking up the wrong tree there!

I've given everyone here an arena where you can discuss volatile subjects and have your opinion heard. Many posts have been *out of line* - yet have never been deleted and 0 posters have been banned.

Yes, I believe in free speech. Do you understand the concept? 

Let's suppose you are enrolled in a major college university and are majoring in history. You have differing opinions than the professor, so you decide to get up in front of the class daily and yell "F*^& Y%$, professor"! Does freedom of speech give you that right, or will you likely be expelled from school within an hour? You DO have the right to picket outside school property, but freedom of speech is not absolute. 

I defy you to find another board that allows it's users to speak their opinions so freely. The closest you will find is Yahoo, which has about 15,000 messages per subject while about 14,000 of them are a waste to read.

Condemn Iraq or the USA, praise terrorism, or even throw jabs at someone else if thats what floats your boat. Everyone that comes here has that same right, but no one is going to tell them how they have to write it.


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## janeeng

quit the bitching! be glad there's a shit room like this that you can say what ever the hell comes to your fuc*ing mind.  Bitch bitch bitch man 1951, just end the crap on freedom of speech already!!!


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## eric

Keep in mind freedom of speech must be exercised with responsibility.


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## janeeng

True eric, I had to bust on this guy though, he is a pain! I don't see anyone else crying about this issue anymore! even Bry, my buddy, a wise guy, but has stopped his bickering and has come up with some pretty good posts lately!


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## eric

Janeen, what I said was meant for the man of '51.


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## janeeng

I know, but I added my comments to it - I know he will have something negative to say about it!


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## eric

But of course he will !


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## Man of 1951

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Yes, I believe in free speech. Do you understand the concept?
> 
> Let's suppose you are enrolled in a major college university and are majoring in history. You have differing opinions than the professor, so you decide to get up in front of the class daily and yell "F*^& Y%$, professor"! Does freedom of speech give you that right, or will you likely be expelled from school within an hour? You DO have the right to picket outside school property, but freedom of speech is not absolute. *



I agree, but thats not the situation here....i was giving you advice, or giving you a suggestion. At a university, if you go up to the professor and give him/her a suggestion to the way they teach or suggest that the history they teach differs from several other professors/intellectuals....i dont think you'd get expelled for that now would he? Or what if the professor makes a comment generalizing against an entire ppl such as: 

Originally posted by jimnyc 
Well, no matter, an opinion from a canadian is like an opinion from a rock. 

Then if someone tells them not to say racist comments, if the professor says:

Originally posted by jimnyc 
While others may read my comments and get agitated, they are there simply to piss off the person I am replying to. 

I would suggest to this professor that whether it was their intent or not, commmenting on an entire ppl could be offending to many others who you apparently 'did not intend' to offend. I would then suggest to the professor that if they plan to offend a single person, they should try doing just that, and not offend an entire people while they are at it. Doing such would not lead to being expelled in any kind. 

Secondly...try going back a little and read my post, i don't see in any way how your analogy is related. One, don't pride youself, as intelligent as you may be, you're not a professor  , two, i dont remember me talking in any disrespectufl way, so using "F*^& Y%$, professor" as a comparision to what i said, would be far fetched, and lastly this isn't school property, but a public forum. I appreciate the fact that you haven't deleted or banned ppl from this forum, but thats simply a matter of appreciation relative to other forums, because being a public forum, there shouldn't be censorship.

I wasn't telling you how to write, i don't care, don't listen to my suggestion, I was simply telling you to do what you say...you say you try to offend single ppl...my suggestion was for you to do just that. There are reasons why you shouldn't attack entire ppl because it'll discredit you as being a reasonable person, and also it'll provoke anger, thus comments not helpful to the specific thread (like the comments made by jimnyc, Janeen, eric, and I aswell), also it'll create an environment where ppl won't want to come and participate in the forum, because they'll see that this is not a forum to develop opinions or give information, just a forum to give opinions and not learn (which it isn't, but someone reading some of the past replies, on this forum for the first time, will decide not to participate in such discussions). 

Listen to my advice...or you could not, either way i can suggest you to do whatever, but you don't have to listen. Freedom of speech MUST BE EXERCISED RESPONSIBLY........NO doubt about it. I completely agree. But responsibility differs from person to person....to me someone saying opinions from a canadian is the same as an opinion from a rock......is not taking freedom of speech responsibly. BUT thats me..........


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## vyxen

Jimster, my parents were married when I was born, tyvm. Now, go cook me dinner you effeminate wanker.


----------



## vyxen

> _Originally posted by Jackass _
> *Whats that supposed to mean? *



A half-arsed attempt to bring some humour to the board.


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## Creek

...This world is so sad in many ways...just glad to see some of us get silly...and still try...and the world does rock too!!!..(smile)

Don't debate me...I've given up even on the news.......(smile)

Creek


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *Jimster, my parents were married when I was born, tyvm. Now, go cook me dinner you effeminate wanker. *



Stop with your repetitive bullshit. Why don't you try offering something to the board instead of your constant need for confrontation?

Continue in this fashion and you're gone.


----------



## Creek

...(smile)...Humour..and smiles..and love..are the best!!!...Without them..I'd be soooooooooooooo sad!!!....

Creek!


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## Creek

Ouch!!!...(smile)...


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## janeeng

hahahah! don't boot her Jim, I like her entertainment here!


----------



## vyxen

> _Originally posted by jimnyc _
> *Stop with your repetitive bullshit. Why don't you try offering something to the board instead of your constant need for confrontation?
> 
> Continue in this fashion and you're gone. *



No more repetitive than you calling me a fatty, eh partner?

Ban me, I don't give a shit.


----------



## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by vyxen _
> *No more repetitive than you calling me a fatty, eh partner?
> 
> Ban me, I don't give a shit. *



And neither do I, adios!


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## Creek

How would anyone of us know if you're fat...?


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## jimnyc

> _Originally posted by Creek _
> *How would anyone of us know if you're fat...? *



I'm too lazy to go back and find the original threads, but I found pictures of her online. Between the email address she registered with and the name "vyxen" in Canada there was no doubt at all it was her. She tried to wiggle out of it, but notice how upset she got at the fat comments! And calling her fat was a compliment! No wonder she is so angry.


----------



## Isaac Brock

Hi NT,

I quite enjoyed my time in your country thank you very much.  I did not bring home the gold, but my purpose there was to coach, rowing myself was just a perk.  I'm not in my peak shape, but i certainly made some of your crews sweat to beat me.  Minneapolis is quite stellar in the fall, especially along the banks of the Mississippi.

First off, great post and now I will comment on some of your points.



> _Originally posted by NightTrain _
> *Issac :
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, I really do think the Iraq war will benefit the USA and the world.
> 
> I think everyone can agree that the middle east has a very real and complex problem with extremism.   I don't think it's due entirely to the financial situation of John Q. Public  there, but I do think it's a part of it.
> 
> What's in common with all of the countries that have terrorists springing up?   Fundamentalist Islamic governments.   You've got a very small number of people controlling 99% of that country's wealth and resources.   In order to maintain their cush positions, they have to divert attention away from the government (who is really responsible for the peasants' plight) to another scapegoat.   These days, that would be America.   Israel, it goes without saying, is always there to take the heat.
> 
> Religion should be separate from government to prevent religious leaders of a certain faith from oppressing & murdering people of differing faiths.   It can do great good, but also great evil.
> 
> *


*

Interesting point and very true with respect to fundamentalist religious countries.  I believe that Islamic Fundamentalist countries provide terrorists... no doubt about it.  I also completely agree that Iraq 1% of the people had any real power with 99% being oppressed and I will, for the record, never state that Iraqis had freedom.  However, to call Iraq a fundamentalist country I think is flat out wrong.

1.  There are high level Baathists that are Christian (Tariq Aziz)
2.  Shiara (Sp?) law was not in effect any where in Iraq (or at least enforced by Saddam's soldiers.  (Not that I'm defending HIS own laws by any means)
3.  Women are allowed in positions of authority were allowed to enroll in college.
4.  Iraq had no national religion, nor a national church.

I honestly believe that Osama hates Saddam's form of government probably as much as the US's form of government.  Of course it could also be argued that an enemy or your enemy is your friend... but I don't think either of us will get far proving that point either way.






			With a democracy established in Iraq (and I really don't know how we're going to introduce the concept of separation of Church and State and that's going to be crucial), the people of Iraq will begin to enjoy the freedoms and liberty that all of us in North America and Europe take for granted.   Then a person can go as far as his/her ambitions take them based on that person's abilities, rather than who they're related to or what faith they are.

When that happens, all of the neighboring countries are going to sit up and take notice - and wonder why they can't have what the Iraqis have.   

It's the Domino theory, and I sure as hell hope it works - if there is a successful Democracy established in Iraq, I don't see how it can fail.  It's been done in the past, and I'm optimistic about this attempt.

Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the others are all watching very closely this attempt of ours to give the Iraqis a modern government, and they know what's at stake - their positions and very possibly their lives.   The last thing they want is a flourishing democracy next door - that's why there are so many foriegn fighters showing up and fighting our troops, and assassinating any new Iraqi official trying to move forward with reconstruction.
		
Click to expand...


Time will tell if your domino theory is correct.  It seems logical what you say, but the biggest variable that I think you've missed in your theory is Iraqi's unwillingness to become like the US, to become a "westernized" country.  If anything, the US invasion has pushed Iraq towards fundamentalism, Shiities who were formerly oppressed are to be blunt, pissed.  Original calculations had thought that they would embrace the US invasion as a liberation force, but as so often in history we have learned that that is rarely the case.  I would very much hope, like you that this domino effect will happen as there is no doubt in my mind that it will make the region a much more secure place, but to be honest i have yet to see any evidence that it is going that way of course it has only been a few months, it will be years until that argument will be settled.




			I disagree.   We haven't had any more attacks on American soil since the gloves came off.   The terrorists wanted a fight, and we're giving it to them in spades.
		
Click to expand...


Well that is true and I hope will all my heart, that you will not have another attack.  

And here's an off topic message to everyone else on this board.  Despite what many of you seem to think, and hopefully not all of you, Canada was not like rah, rah when September 11th happened.  It was not like when you were a preteen and you saw a fender bender and giggled with glee.  You are our neighbours.  You are our big brother.  I was glued to the TV as much as you were and sickened as much as you were.  Heck, I even went out the very next day to give blood for what seemed like a disaster that would never end.  In fact, did you know that Canada completely topped their supplies of blood and the US Red Cross had to turn back Canadian donation, because there was so much blood.  Did you know that Canadians let standed Americans from grounded planes into their homes for a meal and a sleep.  I truly am disgusted sometimes at the point that Canadians are somehow rooting for the terrorists.  

The point that we are neighbours and friends.  Friends disagree.  That's a reality of life and if you are wondering where some of our greatests feelings of apathy are coming from, it is the fact that your government seems to have this "You're either with us or you're against us" attitude.  This is simply wrong.  Canadians despise terrorism in all its forms, but we just disagree in that invading Iraq would stop terrorism or the proliferation of WMD.  Does that mean that we're your enemy?  Of course not.  

I'm sorry if that came off as a little bit of a rant and I know I'm drifting considerably off topic (my apologies NT, it was not directed at you), but i've seen this attititude to often and it sickens me.  It sickens me because we are friends.  But I also know that that is not the prevailing wisdom in the US.  I have visited americans just this weekend, talked to them, share a pint (Canadian beer of course ) and they say: "Sure we're different, but that's okay.  That's cool Canada. "

Certainly it can go both ways, but there are way to many voices on the extreme and not enough voice of moderation.  If anything the world needs moderation so cooler heads prevail.

Well that's enough for now!  I look forward to your comments, as always.*


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## NightTrain

> Minneapolis is quite stellar in the fall, especially along the banks of the Mississippi.



Yes, it truly is.   I was born in St. Paul... haven't been around there much lately, though, except passing through when I fly from AK to Minneapolis, and drive to Northern Wisconsin to see my family.



> However, to call Iraq a fundamentalist country I think is flat out wrong.



You're absolutely correct, I didn't mean to lump Iraq in with the rest of the region.  I was speaking about the surrounding countries in the region.   Iraq was secular, no question about that.   My apologies, Issac, I should have been more clear on that.

That brings up an interesting point, though.   I can't think of one Iraqi terrorist.    While Saddam was enough of a madman without introducing fundamentalism, I think it's interesting that no terrorists were springing forth from secular Iraq, when every neighboring country has produced more than its' fair share.

Coincidence?



> I honestly believe that Osama hates Saddam's form of government probably as much as the US's form of government. Of course it could also be argued that an enemy or your enemy is your friend... but I don't think either of us will get far proving that point either way.



I read several articles saying there was no love lost between Saddam and OBL.   However, I think you hit it on the head there, Issac, with the old 'The enemy of my enemy is therefore my friend'.   There were many times during the Cold War that we were forced to buddy up to unsavory characters to achieve an end.   Right or wrong, it was done all the time.

There were links between the two, however.   And they both shared an intense hatred of the USA.   

They each brought something to the table that the other needed, logistically.  OBL needed a powerful dictator to provide safe haven & certain weapons that are hard to come by.   Saddam needed a way to be able to strike out and have plausible deniability.

I can't prove that last paragraph, it's a guess on my part based on everything I've read & documentaries I've watched (I'm addicted to the History Channel).   Just so you don't call me out on it.   

As far as the Canadian Bashing... I can only speak for myself, of course, but I bear no ill will toward Canadians.  I've driven through Canada many times driving to and from Alaska to the Lower 48.   Your Mounties were always polite & very helpful when completely lost Americans flagged them down in downtown Edmonton.  (MAN that's a huge city!)  We were taken advantage of at certain gas stations with regard to the exchange rate - but we have more than our fair share of unscrupulous types in the States, too.

There have been silly things said from your politians that pissed a great many Americans off, but that's what politians the world over seem do best.   But, when you keep hearing things like that, you begin to wonder.

Take that Italian nut case.. I've been laughing my ass off for 6 months now with the way he keeps pissing off France and Germany.   I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he 'disappears'.

I didn't know that, Issac, about the blood drive.   That's great to hear.   

Yet another superb post on your part, it's been a pleasure.


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## Isaac Brock

> _Originally posted by NightTrain _
> Yes, it truly is.   I was born in St. Paul... haven't been around there much lately, though, except passing through when I fly from AK to Minneapolis, and drive to Northern Wisconsin to see my family.
> 
> 
> 
> You're absolutely correct, I didn't mean to lump Iraq in with the rest of the region.  I was speaking about the surrounding countries in the region.   Iraq was secular, no question about that.   My apologies, Issac, I should have been more clear on that.
> 
> That brings up an interesting point, though.   I can't think of one Iraqi terrorist.    While Saddam was enough of a madman without introducing fundamentalism, I think it's interesting that no terrorists were springing forth from secular Iraq, when every neighboring country has produced more than its' fair share.
> 
> Coincidence?



Not to worry, I misinterpretted that you included Iraq in your list of fundamentalist countries.  I agree, i do think that that coincidence of terrorism being limited to countries with fundamentalist governments deserves more inspection on the Iraq debate.



> I read several articles saying there was no love lost between Saddam and OBL.   However, I think you hit it on the head there, Issac, with the old 'The enemy of my enemy is therefore my friend'.   There were many times during the Cold War that we were forced to buddy up to unsavory characters to achieve an end.   Right or wrong, it was done all the time.
> 
> There were links between the two, however.   And they both shared an intense hatred of the USA.
> 
> They each brought something to the table that the other needed, logistically.  OBL needed a powerful dictator to provide safe haven & certain weapons that are hard to come by.   Saddam needed a way to be able to strike out and have plausible deniability.



Talking of the US angle of befriending it's enemy's enemy, i think history has been to harsh on the US on the matter.  The Cold War was like a giant chess game and unfortunately the world was their pieces.  Sometimes you had to play the game.  I guess what bugs me about when the US (or any major power) does it, is that they generally don't fess up to their choice.  The government never said something along the lines of "Hey, we installed or funded Pinnochet, Saddam, Tito etc, we did it because we had to stop the world from Fundamentalism or Communism, but we realize that that game cost many of innocent lives and now we're willing to right it."  If you guys said that before the Iraq war, I'd be much more lenient towards your president and government... but i digress.  I really didn't want to bring that issue up because it a way it's an entirely different argument that to be honest, i'm not well enough versed to properly debate.



> I can't prove that last paragraph, it's a guess on my part based on everything I've read & documentaries I've watched (I'm addicted to the History Channel).   Just so you don't call me out on it.
> 
> As far as the Canadian Bashing... I can only speak for myself, of course, but I bear no ill will toward Canadians.  I've driven through Canada many times driving to and from Alaska to the Lower 48.   Your Mounties were always polite & very helpful when completely lost Americans flagged them down in downtown Edmonton.  (MAN that's a huge city!)  We were taken advantage of at certain gas stations with regard to the exchange rate - but we have more than our fair share of unscrupulous types in the States, too.
> 
> There have been silly things said from your politians that pissed a great many Americans off, but that's what politians the world over seem do best.   But, when you keep hearing things like that, you begin to wonder.
> 
> Take that Italian nut case.. I've been laughing my ass off for 6 months now with the way he keeps pissing off France and Germany.   I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he 'disappears'.
> 
> I didn't know that, Issac, about the blood drive.   That's great to hear.
> 
> Yet another superb post on your part, it's been a pleasure.



NT, you sir are a gentleman and scholar as always.  I fear though that looking at our orginal subject we have veered far off course, but that's okay.  I think most of the things that could be said about the topic, have been.  Time for something new!


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## Sietse

I wish I could see why vyxen and jimnyc are always having a go at each other. I would like to believe that it's all friendly banter, but there isn't an undertone of irony in your posts. Not really.

Please lay off each other: If you're fighting each other (albeit verbally), you're both debasing yourself. Don't.

About the political humour: The George Bush quotes are considered humourous because 
(1) More people hate him (or love him, for that matter)
(2) He has made so many stupid mistakes that it's no longer in the category 'embarrassing slips': It's become farcical.

Please note: humour is a perfectly acceptable alternative for humor. I'm just saying this because I've noted that jimnyc seems to be spendin a lot of time pointing out other people's spelling mistakes, at least in the 'Too hard on them?'-thread. His time could be much more profitably spent, I'm sure, so I'm saving him the neccesity of pointing out that 'humour' is English (a.o.t. American).


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## jimnyc

And you opened a thread that nobody has posted in for 4 months for why? Vyxen has been banned for many months. You registered for this board and go on the offensive with your very first post? Very interesting...


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## Isaac Brock

In the immortal words or Ralph Wiggum:

"Stop!  Stop!  It's already dead!"


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## Merlin1047

Woweee!

Boy you guys and gals are good.

Can I copy some of this material and use it, or do you have it copyrighted?

Yeeeesh.

Really, people we have terrorist we can have the ass at.  Let's give each other a break.


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## jimnyc

This thread was great! I sorta miss vyxen, that fat fuck! NOT!


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