# If A Terrorist Group of Mexicans



## jillian

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles? 

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.


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## TNHarley

Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol


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## jillian

TNHarley said:


> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol



I'm all for them kicking butt, too.

but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?

i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.


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## TNHarley

jillian said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.
Click to expand...


People or gov't?


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## jillian

TNHarley said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> People or gov't?
Click to expand...


either or both.


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## TNHarley

Gov't = You have got to look at our administration. They would just rather us get our ass kicked than do shit about it
People = Seems to me alot of peopple dont like Isreal. Maybe they are in fear of us actually helping them?


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## jillian

TNHarley said:


> Gov't = You have got to look at our administration. They would just rather us get our ass kicked than do shit about it
> People = Seems to me alot of peopple dont like Isreal. Maybe they are in fear of us actually helping them?



i think any US government is concerned about ticking off the arab world. that's why bush I asked israel not to respond to SCUD attacks during gulf I.. .and bush II made israel back down instead of taking out hezbollah in lebanon.

in terms of the people in general, it appears there is a huge undercurrent of anti-semitism. and there's also this misplaced idea that hamas are underdogs.


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## uscitizen

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



But those missles were full of pot.


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## jillian

uscitizen said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But those missles were full of pot.
Click to expand...


lol.. maybe they wouldn't have minded as much.

but even a missile full of pot can kill people when it lands.


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## TNHarley

jillian said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But those missles were full of pot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol.. maybe they wouldn't have minded as much.
> 
> but even a missile full of pot can kill people when it lands.
Click to expand...


Happy death!


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## koshergrl

So what has the Obama said about the situation, jillian? Do you really expect him to support Israel in this? It doesn't matter what we think. We were put in our places but good by your guy, and now he's running the show.

I wouldn't expect a lot of support from America for Israel from him. He hasn't shown that he has any inclination to defend them. He wants to put us under the thumb of the UN. And you know how they feel about Israel.


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## uscitizen

The hatred from all sides in the middle east goes back to early and pre biblical times.

There will never be a real peace in the middle east unless no one lives there.


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## koshergrl

Are you going somewhere with that observation? Are you implying that since it's impossible, we should just let them kill all the Jews in the Middle East, and ultimately, everywhere? I mean, honestly, there's never going to be worldwide peace...so why ever defend anyone?


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## koshergrl

BTW, jillian, Mexicans send us terrorists all the time. It's one of the reasons we would like better enforcement of immigration laws and border security. They don't aim bombs at us, but they do smuggle tons and tons and tons of drugs in. My cousin's husband was responsible for bringing 10 MILLION pounds of coke across the border...and killing God knows how many people, including his own uncle, who he put in a barrel and shot nine times.


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## uscitizen

koshergrl said:


> Are you going somewhere with that observation? Are you implying that since it's impossible, we should just let them kill all the Jews in the Middle East, and ultimately, everywhere? I mean, honestly, there's never going to be worldwide peace...so why ever defend anyone?



Yes that is a quandry.
They will continue to kill and squabble no matter what we do.
Both sides have valid points.
Should we side with either of them to wipe out the other side?
Some one will side with the wiped out side and replace them...
Actually more than 2 sides are involved....

so do we keep playing their game?
or let them work it out?

Ban all weapons in the area and kill anyone with a weapon regardelss of the side?
UN storm troopers on every corner?
That would likely be the best way to pull the opposite sides together for a time, till they defeated the ones opressing them and preventing them from killing each other?


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## Truthseeker420

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



Our right? To you..might equals right. Israel is holding Palestinian land somewhat in the same way the U.S. stole Texas from Mexico. That's why I have no sympathy for conservatives complaining about Mexicans taking over the U.S.


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## koshergrl

We protect ourselves and our friends. I don't believe in surrendering just because evil will always exist. It's pathetic and weak.


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## Truthseeker420

koshergrl said:


> We protect ourselves and our friends. I don't believe in surrendering just because evil will always exist. It's pathetic and weak.



I would't call Israel "evil ".


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## koshergrl

Good, then don't. I wouldn't, and didn't, call Israel evil. And I won't.


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## uscitizen

The only problem I have with Israel is their extreme influence in the USA because of the dominant Christian Religion in the USA

Crusades!

They should not have undue influence because of religion it is contrary to the constitution.


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## Ravi

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.


Agree.


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## WillowTree

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.


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## WillowTree

koshergrl said:


> So what has the Obama said about the situation, jillian? Do you really expect him to support Israel in this? It doesn't matter what we think. We were put in our places but good by your guy, and now he's running the show.
> 
> I wouldn't expect a lot of support from America for Israel from him. He hasn't shown that he has any inclination to defend them. He wants to put us under the thumb of the UN. And you know how they feel about Israel.



has obama even come en camera and mentioned the recent aggression in Israel? I haven't heard him. And, I think Hamas knew even before they started the aggression that obama hates Netanyahu and would offer no interference.


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## Truthseeker420

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
Click to expand...


Democrats love America.


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## GHook93

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



That is the hypocrisy on everything.
First, no nation in WORLD wouldn't response with force to a nation shooting missiles at it! NONE.
Second, none would hold restraints if another nation was SPECIFICALLY targetting it's civilians!
Third, the hypocrisy of the liberal Muslim Sympathizing (or fearing) media doesn't report on any of the Gaza missile flying at Israel, only the Israeli response!


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## GHook93

jillian said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.
Click to expand...


Liberals are afraid of the billigerent Muslims around the world and in their own countries. When Muslims don't like something (which is everything), they protest, riot and commit acts of violence and terror. Jews are much small as a group, aren't billigerent and don't stand up for themselves in the violent unruly manner Muslims do; therefore, to the cowards on the left, they decide to ally themselves with the Muslims to appease them and attack the Jews who won't fight back. Its the Chamberlain-effect!

The far right also hates on the Jews, but they do it because of the Hitler-legacy of Jew hating!


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## GHook93

koshergrl said:


> So what has the Obama said about the situation, jillian? Do you really expect him to support Israel in this? It doesn't matter what we think. We were put in our places but good by your guy, and now he's running the show.
> 
> I wouldn't expect a lot of support from America for Israel from him. He hasn't shown that he has any inclination to defend them. He wants to put us under the thumb of the UN. And you know how they feel about Israel.



Actually Obama and the Democrat controlled senate did come out impressive for Israel!

When has the senate been unanimous on anything?
US Senate unanimous in 'unwavering commitment' to Israel | The Times of Israel

Obama condemns Hamas and backs Israel!
Obama administration condemns Hamas rocket fire, backs Israel&rsquo;s right to self-defense - The Washington Post


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## WillowTree

Truthseeker420 said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Democrats love America.
Click to expand...



Are you an isolationist?


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## Truthseeker420

WillowTree said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Democrats love America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Are you an isolationist?
Click to expand...


As far as military intervention,yes.


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## koshergrl

GHook93 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what has the Obama said about the situation, jillian? Do you really expect him to support Israel in this? It doesn't matter what we think. We were put in our places but good by your guy, and now he's running the show.
> 
> I wouldn't expect a lot of support from America for Israel from him. He hasn't shown that he has any inclination to defend them. He wants to put us under the thumb of the UN. And you know how they feel about Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Obama and the Democrat controlled senate did come out impressive for Israel!
> 
> When has the senate been unanimous on anything?
> US Senate unanimous in 'unwavering commitment' to Israel | The Times of Israel
> 
> Obama condemns Hamas and backs Israel!
> Obama administration condemns Hamas rocket fire, backs Israel&rsquo;s right to self-defense - The Washington Post
Click to expand...


Let's hope so.

Of course, what Obama SAYS and what he DOES are generally two completely different things.


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## 4Horsemen

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...*what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?*
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



the Propaganda spin media is the problem. being thousands of miles away the media over there(Jew run) AND over here(Jew run) can spin the truth and make it appear like Hamas is lobbing missles at them. For all we know they're lobbing missles at their own people to get a war started - ie - Hitler burning down the Reichstag and blaming somebody else. same thing here. 

In America, since we live here, we would know it almost immediately if we got hit because of Alternative News outlets that don't give a fuck about the spin media. 

Never trust a Jew run media.


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## Truthseeker420

uscitizen said:


> The hatred from all sides in the middle east goes back to early and pre biblical times.
> 
> There will never be a real peace in the middle east unless no one lives there.



The most peaceful time was under Ottoman control then they discovered oil, next was WW1, so we(western powers) have been destabilizing the ME since...


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## 4Horsemen

Truthseeker420 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The hatred from all sides in the middle east goes back to early and pre biblical times.
> 
> There will never be a real peace in the middle east unless no one lives there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most peaceful time was under Ottoman control then the discovered oil, next was WW1, so we(western powers) have been destabilizing the ME since...
Click to expand...


No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.

and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.


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## Dot Com

koshergrl said:


> BTW, jillian, Mexicans send us terrorists all the time. It's one of the reasons we would like better enforcement of immigration laws and border security. They don't aim bombs at us, but they do smuggle tons and tons and tons of drugs in. My cousin's husband was responsible for bringing 10 MILLION pounds of coke across the border...and killing God knows how many people, including his own uncle, who he put in a barrel and shot nine times.



If no one wanted them do you think they would import them?  demand= supply.


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## koshergrl

Yes, we should punish Americans instead of securing the borders.

Got it.


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## Truthseeker420

4Horsemen said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The hatred from all sides in the middle east goes back to early and pre biblical times.
> 
> There will never be a real peace in the middle east unless no one lives there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most peaceful time was under Ottoman control then the discovered oil, next was WW1, so we(western powers) have been destabilizing the ME since...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.
> 
> and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.
Click to expand...


What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.


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## jillian

4Horsemen said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The hatred from all sides in the middle east goes back to early and pre biblical times.
> 
> There will never be a real peace in the middle east unless no one lives there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most peaceful time was under Ottoman control then the discovered oil, next was WW1, so we(western powers) have been destabilizing the ME since...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.
> 
> and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.
Click to expand...


Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the qu'eran even once. i'd just like to mention thta. and israel has no oil, so the destabilization has nothing whatsover to do with fossil fuels.

also, as far as the region goes, israel is stable. it's enemies are the ones with issues.


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## jillian

koshergrl said:


> So what has the Obama said about the situation, jillian? Do you really expect him to support Israel in this? It doesn't matter what we think. We were put in our places but good by your guy, and now he's running the show.
> 
> I wouldn't expect a lot of support from America for Israel from him. He hasn't shown that he has any inclination to defend them. He wants to put us under the thumb of the UN. And you know how they feel about Israel.



please don't stomp on this thread and make it about something it's not.

thanks, allie.


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## jillian

uscitizen said:


> The hatred from all sides in the middle east goes back to early and pre biblical times.
> 
> There will never be a real peace in the middle east unless no one lives there.



i'm pretty sure i've told the story about my son going to middle school with a very diverse student body. he came home one day (he was in 6th grade at the time) and said "the kids in school that are most like us are the arab kids. why don't we get along with them".

i told him it was the worst case of sibling rivalry in history.

but that doesn't answer my question about why the double standard applied to israel.


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## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
Click to expand...


you know willow, the way i see it, the extremes on the right and left hate jews. that's why i believe in moderate societies. we thrive in moderation. we get off'd when things go too far off the rail right or left. the right has it's kkk'ers... the left has its terrorist apologists. just the way it is. and while i appreciate being brought into the fold, i don't see things like making israel not return SCUD attacks in order to preserve bush I's "coalition" and making israel not finish the job against hezbollah...and getting rid of the one person (saddam) who kept iran at bay as being helpful to israel. in fact, i think all of those things hurt israel, destabilized the region and are at least one of the reasons that hamas is emboldened. have i mentioned that it was bushII who pushed for elections in the gaza that resulted in hamas' ascendency.

so you see, hon... and i appreciate the support for israel from people of good will on both sides of the aisle, but i'd never trade everything else i believe in ... from our courts on down... just because of one issue... particularly when i think as positive as the rhetoric from the right, it's effect has not been all sunshine lollypops and rainbows.


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## jillian

Truthseeker420 said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Democrats love America.
Click to expand...


don't pollute my party with your anti-semitism and terrorist support.

thanks.


----------



## jillian

GHook93 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the hypocrisy on everything.
> First, no nation in WORLD wouldn't response with force to a nation shooting missiles at it! NONE.
> Second, none would hold restraints if another nation was SPECIFICALLY targetting it's civilians!
> Third, the hypocrisy of the liberal Muslim Sympathizing (or fearing) media doesn't report on any of the Gaza missile flying at Israel, only the Israeli response!
Click to expand...


well there are problems. but i'm not sure it's a muslim sympathetic media.... sometimes, in trying NOT to take a position, newspapers actually take a position. but even in israel the reportage is different depending on the paper. you won't find the same things highlighted in, say, the j'lem post as you'll find in ha'aretz. right? and i don't have to tell you that if you put three jews into a room, you get ten opinions.

i'm not sure it's hypocrisy... but there is a double standard.


----------



## 4Horsemen

Truthseeker420 said:


> 4Horsemen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most peaceful time was under Ottoman control then the discovered oil, next was WW1, so we(western powers) have been destabilizing the ME since...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.
> 
> and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.
Click to expand...


Most Historians are liars and hide the truth. get a clue.


----------



## Valerie

> Aaron David Miller, a vice president at the Wilson Center, a Washington policy group, said: _Theres absolutely no way this president is not going to demonstrate full and complete support for Israel on this issue, particularly as this involves jihadi groups which are operating with a fair degree of impunity._




Gaza Conflict Highlights Tensions Obama Faces in Mideast - Bloomberg


----------



## editec

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.


 
I doubt anyone, regardless of their POV about Isreal, is really CONFUSED about why Israel responds to attacks in kind, Jill.

You and I both know that the day-to-day fighting and attacks aren't really the issue that the pro-Zionists and anti-Zionists are debating.



WE can try to paint on side as pure evil the other as saintly, we can search back in history to try to decide who has more right to control, we can piss and moan about this opportunity for peace or that, we can debate how many terrorists can dance on the head of a pin, but NONE OD THAT is really the issue, is it?

The issue remains exactly what it was in 1948.

Who controls the land, the Moslems or the Jews?


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



Dear Jillian: If you add up the home invasions, drug and human trafficking, killing of law enforcement officers by illegal immigrants, and gang related violence that has crossed the border into our states, you would see there is this war going on and the federal govt is not defending the states but pushing for amnesty and other lax policies which are not strong enough to deter the criminal abuses going on.

People are basically mixing up church and state. Because the church and religious leaders and members fail to make peace and use all resources to serve their respective communities, people are turning to political gangs to abuse GOVT authority.

I agree with you that the GOVT should be in charge of national security and international agreements. The churches need to do their job, so the govt can do its job and not mix up the two.


----------



## Truthseeker420

GHook93 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the hypocrisy on everything.
> First, no nation in WORLD wouldn't response with force to a nation shooting missiles at it! NONE.
> Second, none would hold restraints if another nation was SPECIFICALLY targetting it's civilians!
> Third, the hypocrisy of the liberal Muslim Sympathizing (or fearing) media doesn't report on any of the Gaza missile flying at Israel, only the Israeli response!
Click to expand...


Palestine has no power to stop Israel from specifically targeting it's civilians.


----------



## jillian

emilynghiem said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Jillian: If you add up the home invasions, drug and human trafficking, killing of law enforcement officers by illegal immigrants, and gang related violence that has crossed the border into our states, you would see there is this war going on and the federal govt is not defending the states but pushing for amnesty and other lax policies which are not strong enough to deter the criminal abuses going on.
> 
> People are basically mixing up church and state. Because the church and religious leaders and members fail to make peace and use all resources to serve their respective communities, people are turning to political gangs to abuse GOVT authority.
> 
> I agree with you that the GOVT should be in charge of national security and international agreements. The churches need to do their job, so the govt can do its job and not mix up the two.
Click to expand...


i don't want your church having ANYTHING to do with my life.

thanks.

and our constitution specifically prohibits it from having anything to do with my life.

Thank G-d.


----------



## JWBooth

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?



With what, their leaf blowers?


----------



## jillian

editec said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt anyone, regardless of their POV about Isreal, is really CONFUSED about why Israel responds to attacks in kind, Jill.
> 
> You and I both know that the day-to-day fighting and attacks aren't really the issue that the pro-Zionists and anti-Zionists are debating.
> 
> 
> 
> WE can try to paint on side as pure evil the other as saintly, we can search back in history to try to decide who has more right to control, we can piss and moan about this opportunity for peace or that, we can debate how many terrorists can dance on the head of a pin, but NONE OD THAT is really the issue, is it?
> 
> The issue remains exactly what it was in 1948.
> 
> *Who controls the land, the Moslems or the Jews*?
Click to expand...



who lost the wars?

what other group lost and had hysteria from other parts of the world demanding a do-over, or more absurdly, demanding a return of the land that was lost.

i always say, half tongue in cheek, that i want my great grandfather's land in belarus back.

but are the pals any different than my family who had to leave where they were from?

stuff happens.

i don't see anyone demanding that my family property be returned to me, or more absurdly, a 'right of return'.

do you think irish who left because of the troubles are entitled to the return of what they left?

it's the double standard accorded these people that i'm asking about.

and with any other country "THERE IS NO QUESTION" about who controls the land... 

same as we control Texas and California


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> i don't want your church having ANYTHING to do with my life.
> 
> thanks.



So if spiritual healing can cure mental and physical illness to reduce the burden on society, taxpayers and govt, you would not want people to have access to free therapy? If Christian ministries have counseled people to get help or get cured for their dangerous alcoholic addictions or other criminal, drug and/or gang related behavior putting the population and public health and safety at risk, you would not want any of that going on?

Why not let help churches take on more responsibility so the govt doesn't keep charging taxpayers millions of dollars for drunk drivers, rapists and child molesters they can't control?

I am a Constitutionalist, by the way. So I hope you believe in that.

So I don't believe in imposing church policy on govt, and by the same laws I don't believe in govt policy denying the free and equal exercise of religion, especially when the solutions offered can solve problems that the govt can't because it is not in charge of people's personal and spiritual process of healing from abuse and addiction. That belongs in private.
If people don't get enough help to resolve their criminal abuse and addiction issues, then they become a burden and threat to society, costing taxpayers and govt millions of dollars.

So even for the sake of govt ethics, where the Code of Ethics calls for govt employees in  public service to "seek more efficient and economical means of getting tasks accomplished" then using spiritual healing methods to cure mental and criminal illness would cut costs.
This can't be imposed by law, but freely chosen if nothing else works to cure people.

The same First Amendment that protects people from religious imposition by govt also protects the free exercise of religion. So if you believe in the Constitution as I do, you would not deny either one.


----------



## jillian

emilynghiem said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> i don't want your church having ANYTHING to do with my life.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if spiritual healing can cure mental and physical illness to reduce the burden on society, taxpayers and govt, you would not want people to have access to free therapy? If Christian ministries have counseled people to get help or get cured for their dangerous alcoholic addictions or other criminal, drug and/or gang related behavior putting the population and public health and safety at risk, you would not want any of that going on?
> 
> Why not let help churches take on more responsibility so the govt doesn't keep charging taxpayers millions of dollars for drunk drivers, rapists and child molesters they can't control?
> 
> I am a Constitutionalist, by the way. So I hope you believe in that.
> 
> So I don't believe in imposing church policy on govt, and by the same laws I don't believe in govt policy denying the free and equal exercise of religion, especially when the solutions offered can solve problems that the govt can't because it is not in charge of people's personal and spiritual process of healing from abuse and addiction. That belongs in private.
> If people don't get enough help to resolve their criminal abuse and addiction issues, then they become a burden and threat to society, costing taxpayers and govt millions of dollars.
> 
> So even for the sake of govt ethics, where the Code of Ethics calls for govt employees in  public service to "seek more efficient and economical means of getting tasks accomplished" then using spiritual healing methods to cure mental and criminal illness would cut costs.
> This can't be imposed by law, but freely chosen if nothing else works to cure people.
> 
> The same First Amendment that protects people from religious imposition by govt also protects the free exercise of religion. So if you believe in the Constitution as I do, you would not deny either one.
Click to expand...


who is keeping you from practicing your religion?

it just shouldn't have anything to do with my life.

but are you aware that has nothing to do with this thread? perhaps you're looking for something else?


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> ...
> same as we control Texas and California



Similar battles of ideology are going on here, too. Where people who believe they are connected by ancestry to Native Americans have the right to populate the land freely, and do not respect the borders separating Texas or California, which some people ACTUALLY believe are still part of Mexico! 
====================================================
BTW you may have no faith in Christian or church laws doing any good.
But this helps with my Christian friends who were quoting the Bible about
(a) not turning away or mistreating the foreigner/stranger
(b) not neglecting to do for the least as this would be neglecting duty to Jesus
(c) or the people paid the same even though some worked fewer hours than others

I DID successfully use the same Bible to point out that believers are STILL required
to follow and respect CIVIL AUTHORITY and INSTITUTIONS. So if the immigration laws say to go through a process, and wait in line like others who are following the laws, and to pay any fine or restitution for cheating and breaking laws when others did not; then you still owe if you commit violations against civil laws. You can be forgiven spiritually without condition, but that does not necessarily void physical debts unless the people offended agree to it.

So when dealing with people who ARE under church/Biblical authority,
it DOES help to use this same frame of reference when issuing corrections.
Avoiding this altogether is NOT going to solve the problem with people taking
their religious beliefs "out of context" and imposing them where they don't belong.


----------



## WillowTree

Truthseeker420 said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democrats love America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you an isolationist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As far as military intervention,yes.
Click to expand...


So there's no one in the world you'd raise a weapon to help? No one?


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> i don't want your church having ANYTHING to do with my life.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> and our constitution specifically prohibits it from having anything to do with my life.
> 
> Thank G-d.



I agree.
I also see the same Constitution protects equal and free exercise of religion.

So to be fair, if you don't want people imposing their views on yours,
then please have equal respect for people who do "believe" in the Palestinians having
equal spiritual identity and sovereignty as their Jewish neighbors. if people have different beliefs, just take responsibility for that without imposing on someone else who disagrees!

If only the people who agree to share the land peacefully are allowed citizenship and residency rights to live there, then anyone who believes in imposing one view over another would be deported and have to leave. Only if you are a guest of someone else who agrees to take legal responsibility for you, could you also be there under that status. If the guest violates laws to disrupt the peace, then both the guest and the sponsor would be held responsible. So the same policy of taking responsibility could work with border/sovereignty issues in the Middle East as with immigration and border issues in America. As long as the people who believe in helping immigrants take responsibility instead of dumping this on others, we wouldn't have this problem we have now.


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you know willow, the way i see it, the extremes on the right and left hate jews. that's why i believe in moderate societies. we thrive in moderation. we get off'd when things go too far off the rail right or left. the right has it's kkk'ers... the left has its terrorist apologists. just the way it is. and while i appreciate being brought into the fold, i don't see things like making israel not return SCUD attacks in order to preserve bush I's "coalition" and making israel not finish the job against hezbollah...and getting rid of the one person (saddam) who kept iran at bay as being helpful to israel. in fact, i think all of those things hurt israel, destabilized the region and are at least one of the reasons that hamas is emboldened. have i mentioned that it was bushII who pushed for elections in the gaza that resulted in hamas' ascendency.
> 
> so you see, hon... and i appreciate the support for israel from people of good will on both sides of the aisle, but i'd never trade everything else i believe in ... from our courts on down... just because of one issue... particularly when i think as positive as the rhetoric from the right, it's effect has not been all sunshine lollypops and rainbows.
Click to expand...


Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?


Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.


----------



## WillowTree

Remember this folks. The Israeli people left Gaza. and what to they get in return? Rockets now sent to Tel A Viv and now to Jerusalem.


----------



## Truthseeker420

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you know willow, the way i see it, the extremes on the right and left hate jews. that's why i believe in moderate societies. we thrive in moderation. we get off'd when things go too far off the rail right or left. the right has it's kkk'ers... the left has its terrorist apologists. just the way it is. and while i appreciate being brought into the fold, i don't see things like making israel not return SCUD attacks in order to preserve bush I's "coalition" and making israel not finish the job against hezbollah...and getting rid of the one person (saddam) who kept iran at bay as being helpful to israel. in fact, i think all of those things hurt israel, destabilized the region and are at least one of the reasons that hamas is emboldened. have i mentioned that it was bushII who pushed for elections in the gaza that resulted in hamas' ascendency.
> 
> so you see, hon... and i appreciate the support for israel from people of good will on both sides of the aisle, but i'd never trade everything else i believe in ... from our courts on down... just because of one issue... particularly when i think as positive as the rhetoric from the right, it's effect has not been all sunshine lollypops and rainbows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?
> 
> 
> Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.
Click to expand...


http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/257983-romney-adviser-said-fuck-the-jews.html


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> Remember this folks. The Israeli people left Gaza. and what to they get in return? Rockets now sent to Tel A Viv and now to Jerusalem.



you noticed, huh?


----------



## JWBooth

WillowTree said:


> Remember this folks. The Israeli people left Gaza. and what to they get in return? Rockets now sent to Tel A Viv and now to Jerusalem.



No argument. So what? 
They either take care of the problem or not.
Either way, the US should stay the hell out.


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> who is keeping you from practicing your religion?
> 
> it just shouldn't have anything to do with my life.
> 
> but are you aware that has nothing to do with this thread? perhaps you're looking for something else?



Because I believe in the Constitution to mean equal protection of people's interests regardless of religious or political views, then the current system of abusing party politics to overrule and exclude opposing views violates the higher Constitutional standards I believe in.

Jillian you seem to believe in the same principles I do of NOT allowing people's individual religious beliefs to be imposed on others, especially not by govt bias in policy.

Since you and I seem to agree on this, it is NOT true that you don't want anything to do with "my" beliefs, because you are saying the same thing!

I just take it one step further, by defending all people's beliefs equally under the same Constitutional laws you invoke to defend your own.

We both believe in this same law, but you are only interested in defending it for yourself, and I made the commitment to defend this same law for all people equally as myself.

It's still the same law or principle we are both believe in.

And yes, Jillian, my exercise of Constitutional equality and inclusion is SEVERLY abridged by this partisan habit of manipulating votes and media/public perception to bully one group or another. That is not equal protection of interests, representation and due process, but a constant war going on with words, with media and in elections and courts and congress.

It is a constant battle and every day I feel the pressure of defending equal justice under law from attack on all sides, by well-meaning people just like you who don't mean to impose on others but are only focused on defending your own positions, not others' equally. So when other people do as you do, it promotes conflicts and wars, where everyone loses out.

That is the reality I face every day, so thank you for asking!


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you know willow, the way i see it, the extremes on the right and left hate jews. that's why i believe in moderate societies. we thrive in moderation. we get off'd when things go too far off the rail right or left. the right has it's kkk'ers... the left has its terrorist apologists. just the way it is. and while i appreciate being brought into the fold, i don't see things like making israel not return SCUD attacks in order to preserve bush I's "coalition" and making israel not finish the job against hezbollah...and getting rid of the one person (saddam) who kept iran at bay as being helpful to israel. in fact, i think all of those things hurt israel, destabilized the region and are at least one of the reasons that hamas is emboldened. have i mentioned that it was bushII who pushed for elections in the gaza that resulted in hamas' ascendency.
> 
> so you see, hon... and i appreciate the support for israel from people of good will on both sides of the aisle, but i'd never trade everything else i believe in ... from our courts on down... just because of one issue... particularly when i think as positive as the rhetoric from the right, it's effect has not been all sunshine lollypops and rainbows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?
> 
> 
> Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.
Click to expand...


yep.. but they're republicans now.

Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/19/eric-cantor-anti-semitism_n_1438031.html

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...8QFjAE&usg=AFQjCNEn20RNiVlROirqIFqBcBnN66oCcw


----------



## koshergrl

However racist individuals may or may not be (or however racist they are portrayed by those who are truly racist) the Republican Party does not endorse or support racism. 

Democrat policy is in and of itself racist to the core. The concept of some people being more deserving of life, wealth, whatever...is a democrat concept and is racist at its core. Negative eugenics, held dear by Democrats, is racist at its core.

And they have never been friends of the Jewish people. Ever. Even the Jewish Dems are not friends of the Jewish people. It's insane.


----------



## nitroz

All the gun nuts would charge and turn mexico into swiss cheese.


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> don't pollute my party with your anti-semitism and terrorist support.
> 
> thanks.



Dear Jillian: 
1. First I ask to clarify and apologize to you if I offended you unintentionally by my comments. In no way do I support or believe in imposing religious views on someone either personally or especially not by govt or party pressure. But I do recognize this is going on.
I sympathize equally with the Jewish and Palestinians/Muslims who want peace with each other, but are overrun by people on both sides who abuse political authority or influence to threaten violence and commit acts of war as retaliation instead of using armed forces for defense only. It should never be for attacks to incite more wars, but people on both sides will do that, at the expense of their populations who want peace and civil negotiations.

The same with our political parties, where the media messages and images skew the very worst of each party's approaches, and censor the good goals they actually share in common. That does not win elections, so spending money on campaigns is not going there.

2. If it gives you any hope, as a fellow Democrat, I have participated in a resolutions/platform meeting where one of the committee members pointed out how useless it was that every year the pro Jewish members propose one resolution while the pro-Palestinian members propose another, and the two cancel out each other's ability at any real progress towards peace. He suggested instead some process between the members where there is collaborative dialogue and concerted effort to address common issues and agree on common points and goals, instead of competing separately to overrule the other.

If we were to enforce the Constitution and respect views equally, only the policies that satisfy both sides would survive the editing process. So we would reward the peacemakers who are equally concerned for and protecting the interests of people from both sides of any conflict, and quit empowering and egging on the bullies to censor and exclude trying to win.

I agree in the use of military forces for security and protection; but emphasize that these should be used for defense only, same with using the legal and political process for DEFENSE of equal justice and protection under the laws, and not for attack.

If we can first make peace and work together on common goals of national security, for ourselves and others equally, then the physical steps of enacting and enforcing such an agreement will follow. I'm interested in hearing more from the people who can bring about peaceful working relations on both sides, and give more authority to them first.

I find the people whose authority is most respected and who have the greatest influence are the ones who respect people on both sides. When it is clear the decisions made are by  unified agreement on what is good for all people equally, that has greater chance of being enforced rather than policies imposed that both sides fear is favoring the other more.

I believe we will see peace in our lifetimes, by agreeing to seek this central and unifying authority in decisions and policies, and putting our personal politics aside to be resolved as a consequence of peacemaking, not as a condition place on peacemaking in advance.

I saw hope within the members of the Democrat Party, but we are fighting a similar battle where the peacemakers working behind the scenes are too often overrun in the scramble by elected leaders to get votes by exploiting issues instead of solving them. So our uphill battles are not unlike the Jewish and Palestinian people facing similar situations, where they are often used as pawns in a powergrab among leaders looking to dominate the others.

Whatever we can achieve at home, we can use that experience to help people in other countries and situations. But if we cannot even make peace within our own parties, without giving in to popular politics to bully or bulldoze over opposing sides, what authority do we have to ask other people to quit giving in to the same political games not solving problems?


----------



## uscitizen

So no one has read Judges?

God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?


----------



## JWBooth

uscitizen said:


> So no one has read Judges?
> 
> God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?



How many times did Israel abandon the God of Abraham and Moses and take up the gods of the Philistines and Canaanites?
Enough times that he gave up on them and let them be scattered to the winds.


----------



## oldfart

Jillian, it's been a good discussion even when it's been messy so you did good to start it.  My take:

1.  If there was a military or anti-terrorist solution to Gaza the Israelis would have done it by now.  Remember Lebanon?  I think the Israelis are just winging this one; they will do a sweep, remove a lot of weapon stashes, kill a number of Hamas fighters and innocent civilians and people who are in between, and then leave.  Hamas will then return.  Repeat in five years.  

2.   Neither the Palestinian Authority nor Israel recognize Hamas, so this is not a conflict between nations.   If there was some way to bring Gaza under the control of the Palestinian Authority, they would probably be able to stop the attacks.  But if Israel knew how to do that, they would have done it by now.  See a pattern?

3.  I don't see anything the United States can do to help that the Israelis and Palestinian Authority working together could not do better.  So working out a deal to settle the larger issues is probably the only way to resolve Gaza in the next 100 years or so.  

4.  This would put the United States squarely in the middle of Israeli domestic politics, where America should not be.  

I understand the frustration, but I really don't see much America can do to help.  If America takes responsibility for resolving the situation in some military sense, how would it enforce that solution if either or both parties broke it?  For example, say we got everyone to agree to allow a Palestinian Authority police force in Gaza to stop rocket attacks, the Palestinian Authority agreed to throw in the towel on those parts of the occupied territories on the Israeli side of the wall, and Israel agreed to treat   the Palestinian Authority full recognition and to accord Palestinians living inside Israel full rights of citizenship (note that these conditions are anathema to the parties asked to bend on them).  What do we do when Hamas manages to sneak a few rockets into Gaza and launch them?  Or if Israel decides to expand its settlements program?  Or both?  I just don't see how America can act as a guarantor of a treaty in a military sense in this conflict.  

OK, I'm done so everyone can resume the crossfire.


----------



## Truthseeker420

WillowTree said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you an isolationist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as military intervention,yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So there's no one in the world you'd raise a weapon to help? No one?
Click to expand...


Yes if there was a declaration of war by 3/4 of Congress.


----------



## koshergrl

uscitizen said:


> So no one has read Judges?
> 
> God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?


 
That does not absolve us from responsibility to do the right thing.


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> you know willow, the way i see it, the extremes on the right and left hate jews. that's why i believe in moderate societies. we thrive in moderation. we get off'd when things go too far off the rail right or left. the right has it's kkk'ers... the left has its terrorist apologists. just the way it is. and while i appreciate being brought into the fold, i don't see things like making israel not return SCUD attacks in order to preserve bush I's "coalition" and making israel not finish the job against hezbollah...and getting rid of the one person (saddam) who kept iran at bay as being helpful to israel. in fact, i think all of those things hurt israel, destabilized the region and are at least one of the reasons that hamas is emboldened. have i mentioned that it was bushII who pushed for elections in the gaza that resulted in hamas' ascendency.
> 
> so you see, hon... and i appreciate the support for israel from people of good will on both sides of the aisle, but i'd never trade everything else i believe in ... from our courts on down... just because of one issue... particularly when i think as positive as the rhetoric from the right, it's effect has not been all sunshine lollypops and rainbows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?
> 
> 
> Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yep.. but they're republicans now.
> 
> Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus
> 
> Eric Cantor Refuses To Discuss Possible Anti-Semitism Among GOP Colleagues
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...8QFjAE&usg=AFQjCNEn20RNiVlROirqIFqBcBnN66oCcw
Click to expand...


Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?


----------



## Connery

Israel is a sovereign state and has the right to defend themselves as they see fit. Clearly Israel has the support of the Senate  as they just passed a resolution Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously. The passage of this resolution sends a strong and clear message that the United States stands in solidarity with the State of Israel, Senator Kirk said. Israel is a fellow democracy and has an inherent right to defend its citizens from terrorist missiles."

We strongly reiterate our support for Israels right to self-defense as a barrage of missiles from Gaza are attacking the people of Israel and endangering innocent lives, said U.S. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. The passage of this Senate resolution clearly expresses the United States unwavering commitment to the security of our nations close and historic ally in the Middle East. We firmly stand united with Israel against terrorism.
http://www.kirk.senate.gov/pdfs/israelresolutionnovember.pdf

Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously

Should Obama get weak in the knees he will have to weigh the price of his reluctance to support in same measure the letter if not the spirit of the resolution.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



You do understand that not blindly accepting the narrative that Israel is wrong makes you racist, don't you?


----------



## WillowTree

Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian I've never met a Republican who openly states they hate Jews. Can you tell me about one?
> 
> 
> Oh and the KKK was invented and founded by Democrats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yep.. but they're republicans now.
> 
> Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus
> 
> Eric Cantor Refuses To Discuss Possible Anti-Semitism Among GOP Colleagues
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...8QFjAE&usg=AFQjCNEn20RNiVlROirqIFqBcBnN66oCcw
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?
Click to expand...


willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.


----------



## jillian

Connery said:


> Israel is a sovereign state and has the right to defend themselves as they see fit. Clearly Israel has the support of the Senate  as they just passed a resolution Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously. The passage of this resolution sends a strong and clear message that the United States stands in solidarity with the State of Israel, Senator Kirk said. Israel is a fellow democracy and has an inherent right to defend its citizens from terrorist missiles."
> 
> We strongly reiterate our support for Israels right to self-defense as a barrage of missiles from Gaza are attacking the people of Israel and endangering innocent lives, said U.S. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. The passage of this Senate resolution clearly expresses the United States unwavering commitment to the security of our nations close and historic ally in the Middle East. We firmly stand united with Israel against terrorism.
> http://www.kirk.senate.gov/pdfs/israelresolutionnovember.pdf
> 
> Bipartisan Resolution Supporting Israel Passes U.S. Senate Unanimously
> 
> Should Obama get weak in the knees he will have to weigh the price of his reluctance to support in same measure the letter if not the spirit of the resolution.



doesn't seem like he's weak in the knees... 

Obama administration condemns Hamas rocket fire, backs Israel&rsquo;s right to self-defense - The Washington Post


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> yep.. but they're republicans now.
> 
> Cantor Suggests Anti-Semitism Is A Problem Within The House GOP Caucus
> 
> Eric Cantor Refuses To Discuss Possible Anti-Semitism Among GOP Colleagues
> 
> The Jewish Week | Connecting the World to Jewish News, Culture, and Opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.
Click to expand...


I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cantor suggests? Did he name names? Until he's ready to put his money where his mouth is we'll have to do with "suggests" is that good enough for an attorny?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.
Click to expand...


you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?


----------



## emilynghiem

JWBooth said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With what, their leaf blowers?
Click to expand...


Actually with this administration, I think they would apologize for America's past sins, and just offer more room for the chickens and roosters to come home to roost, including safe haven for the eggs and chicks.

If pushed by the Republicans, they might offer to conduct an FBI investigation into the matter, while blaming the attacks on a youtube video....


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?
Click to expand...


I never heard him say he hates Jewish people I have heard him say he's anti war. Is that the same thing?


----------



## WillowTree

If I was in charge I'd relocate the whole country of Israel here to the US. We'd be the richer for it.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never heard him say he hates Jewish people I have heard him say he's anti war. Is that the same thing?
Click to expand...


he's pro pulling all support from israel.

you think that's pro?

see, here's the thing... the senate just passed a unanimous bi-partisan proclamation supporting israel. i don't think the issue is GOP or Dem.  And I wouldn't trade everything that I believe in for a little tougher rhetoric... which is really what we're talking about.

So that said, I'm kind of more interested in why the double standard applied to israel in terms of it's right to protect itself and it's population.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> If I was in charge I'd relocate the whole country of Israel here to the US. We'd be the richer for it.



well, you'd have an awful lot of new technology companies. lol.. 

i kind of like it there. i'd just like the third world loons surrounding it to lighten up.


----------



## Mad Scientist

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.


if Terrorists Mexicans ever did what Jillian outlined, millions of you Liberals would RUN to defend their actions.


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never heard him say he hates Jewish people I have heard him say he's anti war. Is that the same thing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he's pro pulling all support from israel.
> 
> you think that's pro?
> 
> see, here's the thing... the senate just passed a unanimous bi-partisan proclamation supporting israel. i don't think the issue is GOP or Dem.  And I wouldn't trade everything that I believe in for a little tougher rhetoric... which is really what we're talking about.
> 
> So that said, I'm kind of more interested in why the double standard applied to israel in terms of it's right to protect itself and it's population.
Click to expand...


No it's not pro but he isn't targeting Israel, he's not pro war to support any country. I didn't vote for Ron Paul, I voted for Mitt Romney who is personal friends with Benjamen Netnayahu. I know for sure Mitt Romney is a friend of Israel and the Jewish people. I totally support Israel's right to defend herself. you'll have to ask your liberal buddies why they are opposed to that notion. Be quick though Hamas is on the move.


----------



## WillowTree

Mad Scientist said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> if Terrorists Mexicans ever did what Jillian outlined, millions of you Liberals would RUN to defend their actions.
Click to expand...















I think you are right.


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I was in charge I'd relocate the whole country of Israel here to the US. We'd be the richer for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, you'd have an awful lot of new technology companies. lol..
> 
> i kind of like it there. i'd just like the third world loons surrounding it to lighten up.
Click to expand...


That will never happen. They've written it into their charters (The Palestinians" to eradicate Israel. and today Egypt openly backed the Palestinians.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> if Terrorists Mexicans ever did what Jillian outlined, millions of you Liberals would RUN to defend their actions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are right.
Click to expand...



bull...


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I was in charge I'd relocate the whole country of Israel here to the US. We'd be the richer for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, you'd have an awful lot of new technology companies. lol..
> 
> i kind of like it there. i'd just like the third world loons surrounding it to lighten up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That will never happen. They've written it into their charters (The Palestinians" to eradicate Israel. and today Egypt openly backed the Palestinians.
Click to expand...


oh, i know, honey.

actually, no...the pm of egypt went to gaza to tell them to stop.


----------



## jillian

Mad Scientist said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> if Terrorists Mexicans ever did what Jillian outlined, millions of you Liberals would RUN to defend their actions.
Click to expand...



and i think you can kiss my liberal butt and the liberal butts of all my family members who served.


----------



## jillian

hey, willow... 

have you ever been?


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> hey, willow...
> 
> have you ever been?



Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?


----------



## koshergrl

WillowTree said:


> If I was in charge I'd relocate the whole country of Israel here to the US. We'd be the richer for it.


 
They would never go for it. Israel was given to them by God. They will gladly soak the soil with their blood but they won't leave and they shouldn't.

Time to rebuild the temple.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey, willow...
> 
> have you ever been?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?
Click to expand...


you know, i did forget. apologies.  it's been a long few weeks here. 

i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey, willow...
> 
> have you ever been?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you know, i did forget. apologies.  it's been a long few weeks here.
> 
> i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.
Click to expand...


I hope and pray to god that Israel is there for a thousand years but I'm getting worried



Egypt president toughens rhetoric on Israel - News - Boston.com


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey, willow...
> 
> have you ever been?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you know, i did forget. apologies.  it's been a long few weeks here.
> 
> i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.
Click to expand...


No problem..

On that trip I visited. Greece  Rhodes and Santorini Athens

Turkey  Istanbul and Ephesus

Egypt. Alexandria and Cairo

Israel. Jerusalem and the River Jordan


My son said I missed the best Masada. Hopefull one day before I die I'll get to visit again.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you know, i did forget. apologies.  it's been a long few weeks here.
> 
> i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hope and pray to god that Israel is there for a thousand years but I'm getting worried
> 
> 
> Egypt president toughens rhetoric on Israel - News - Boston.com
Click to expand...


i'd be stupid not to be concerned, willow. of course i am. but morsi is in a bad position on this one... he has to appease his muslim population and also accommodate his interest in maintaining the relationship with us (at least monitarily)... while not losing his own tenuous grasp on power.



> CAIRO  The escalating conflict in Gaza has confronted President Mohamed Morsi of Egypt with a wrenching test of his commitments  to his fellow Islamists of the militant group Hamas and to Egypts landmark peace agreement with Israel.
> 
> Over two days, Mr. Morsi, a former leader of the Muslim Brotherhood who has denounced Israelis as vampires for the killing of Palestinian civilians, seemed to reach for every diplomatic gesture he could make without jeopardizing the treaty.




http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/w...s-gaza-strikes-test-egyptian-leader.html?_r=0

anyway, i'm off to home. 

spot y'all later. this is an interesting conversation. i wish there were more of these.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you know, i did forget. apologies.  it's been a long few weeks here.
> 
> i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No problem..
> 
> On that trip I visited. Greece  Rhodes and Santorini Athens
> 
> Turkey  Istanbul and Ephesus
> 
> Egypt. Alexandria and Cairo
> 
> Israel. Jerusalem and the River Jordan
> 
> 
> My son said I missed the best Masada. Hopefull one day before I die I'll get to visit again.
Click to expand...


that's some trip!

my older nephew was bar mitzvah'd in israel, so we got to do some major touring then, including masada. it's a pretty funky place. we went to the dead sea after.

two summers ago, we did *my* son's bar mitzvah trip (he didn't want to be bar mitvah'd in israel, but wanted a trip. so we did the party and ceremony in nj but did the trip to greece that he wanted. took a ship from istanbul... to ephesis... to patmos, rhodes, mikonos santorini, athens...

i hope you get back there, too.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> willow, i'd suggest you take that up with cantor. my point was that, historically, the extremes of both parties aren't big fans of jews or israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I repeat. I've never heard a Republican say they hate Jewish people. I have in fact read so on this very board from your side of the aisle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?
Click to expand...


Don't you?

Here is what Paul says about Israel.



> _We should be their friend and their trading partner, _said Paul._  They are a democracy and we share many values with them. But we should  not be their master. We should not dictate where their borders will be  nor should we have veto power over their foreign policy._ _I say _[to Christian evangelicals who want foreign aid to Israel to continue]_  that our aid in the region is out of balance and it is wrong. Foreign  aid does not help Israel. It is a net disadvantage. I say to them that  the borrower is servant to the lender and America should never be the  master of Israelwe should stop interfering with them. We should not  dictate what she can and cannot do. We should stop trying to buy her  allegiance. And Israel should stop sacrificing their sovereignty as an  independent state to us or anybody else, no matter how  well-intentioned._



Ron Paul and the Israel question | Washington Times Communities

Want me to point out what Obama thinks about dictating to Israel?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> you think ron paul is pro israel, willow?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never heard him say he hates Jewish people I have heard him say he's anti war. Is that the same thing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he's pro pulling all support from israel.
> 
> you think that's pro?
> 
> see, here's the thing... the senate just passed a unanimous bi-partisan proclamation supporting israel. i don't think the issue is GOP or Dem.  And I wouldn't trade everything that I believe in for a little tougher rhetoric... which is really what we're talking about.
> 
> So that said, I'm kind of more interested in why the double standard applied to israel in terms of it's right to protect itself and it's population.
Click to expand...


He is pro ending all support to everyone, including the support we give to the enemies of Israel, which is roughly 4 times what we give to them.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

4Horsemen said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...*what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?*
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the Propaganda spin media is the problem. being thousands of miles away the media over there(Jew run) AND over here(Jew run) can spin the truth and make it appear like Hamas is lobbing missles at them. For all we know they're lobbing missles at their own people to get a war started - ie - Hitler burning down the Reichstag and blaming somebody else. same thing here.
> 
> In America, since we live here, we would know it almost immediately if we got hit because of Alternative News outlets that don't give a fuck about the spin media.
> 
> Never trust a Jew run media.
Click to expand...


You just proved how biased you are, claiming the Jews fired on themselves, Hamas ADMITS they fire on Israel, Iran ADMITS they send them the rockets missiles and mortars to attack with, as well now as drones.

Jew dominated news service, give me a break.


----------



## Nightson

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.




I also agree that any sovereign nation capable of protecting its citizens from imminent threat has the right to do so. Unfortunately for Israel their geopolitical postion seems to be viewed by the rest of the civilized world as tantamount to perpetually on the verge of igniting a global powder keg. Its almost as if Israeli leaders must _ask_ for permission of her allies to respond militarily in any way. If such is true, then the Israeli people are living constantly between a rock and a hard place. 

I know that Israeli leaders depend on international aid in many forms--the U.S. in particular--for the continued benefit of their state, but when the missles are reigning down, they should put the safety of their people above appeasment of international allies. The Israelis have the capability to react, they should do so immediately to protect their citizens and worry about justifying their actions afer the threat has been destroyed.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against? 

If these are terrorists, then theyre criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to retaliate into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.   

But the West Bank and Gaza isnt recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy. 

The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response  to attack civilian targets with a First World military force  violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesnt mitigate the fact that Israels policy is illegal.  

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation  Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesnt care; given the current government its most likely the latter.


----------



## koshergrl

Hamas needs to be wiped off the face of the earth. They hide behind civilians. The civilian deaths are on their putrid souls.


----------



## The Infidel

jillian said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey, willow...
> 
> have you ever been?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you know, i did forget. apologies.  it's been a long few weeks here.
> 
> i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.
Click to expand...


Please be extremely careful Jillie.
I need ya here to yell at me every once in a while.


----------



## Truthseeker420

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0]Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1fYDBib39s]Pink Floyd - Song for Palestine - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLDyybNv1Iw]Free Palestine - Genocide - (Rap Song) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## jillian

^^^^^^ 

proves my point, willow


----------



## jillian

The Infidel said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you know, i did forget. apologies.  it's been a long few weeks here.
> 
> i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please be extremely careful Jillie.
> I need ya here to yell at me every once in a while.
Click to expand...


heh... thanks.

it's not my intention to be off'd by a khadusha missile. knock wood.


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> proves my point, willow






About Paul? point taken,, the rap one though proves my point, the hatred comes from the left.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?
> 
> If these are terrorists, then theyre criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to retaliate into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.
> 
> But the West Bank and Gaza isnt recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.
> 
> The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response  to attack civilian targets with a First World military force  violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesnt mitigate the fact that Israels policy is illegal.
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation  Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesnt care; given the current government its most likely the latter.
Click to expand...


If the government doesn't stop them I can easily argue that they are sanctioning them. It isn't that easy to set up a long rang missile without anyone noticing, and Hamas is part of the government of Gaza.


----------



## Truthseeker420

WillowTree said:


> Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.



I hope for peace,that they live side by side as the Bible says brothers should...


----------



## MHunterB

Truthseeker420 said:


> 4Horsemen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most peaceful time was under Ottoman control then the discovered oil, next was WW1, so we(western powers) have been destabilizing the ME since...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.
> 
> and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.
Click to expand...


The Peleset or P'lishtim - Philistines - had a confederation of five TINY city-states in the vicinity of Gaza.  Their culture has been extinct since Biblical times - Samson was in the pre-Davidic period of Judges.  The Philistines  were no relation to the current Semitic people known as 'Palestinians'.


----------



## P F Tinmore

emilynghiem said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> i don't want your church having ANYTHING to do with my life.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> and our constitution specifically prohibits it from having anything to do with my life.
> 
> Thank G-d.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.
> I also see the same Constitution protects equal and free exercise of religion.
> 
> So to be fair, if you don't want people imposing their views on yours,
> then please have equal respect for people who do "believe" in the Palestinians having
> equal spiritual identity and sovereignty as their Jewish neighbors. if people have different beliefs, just take responsibility for that without imposing on someone else who disagrees!
> 
> If only the people who agree to share the land peacefully are allowed citizenship and residency rights to live there, then anyone who believes in imposing one view over another would be deported and have to leave. Only if you are a guest of someone else who agrees to take legal responsibility for you, could you also be there under that status. If the guest violates laws to disrupt the peace, then both the guest and the sponsor would be held responsible. So the same policy of taking responsibility could work with border/sovereignty issues in the Middle East as with immigration and border issues in America. As long as the people who believe in helping immigrants take responsibility instead of dumping this on others, we wouldn't have this problem we have now.
Click to expand...


Good post, thanks.



> If only the people who agree to share the land peacefully are allowed citizenship and residency rights to live there,...



It is interesting to note that when the PLO defined who is a Palestinian, they included native Jews to be citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians are equal under the law without regard to race, religion, sex, etc..

Israel, on the other hand, has no constitutional guarantee of equal rights. Israel has laws, practices, and procedures that discriminate against non Jews.


----------



## MHunterB

JWBooth said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> So no one has read Judges?
> 
> God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many times did Israel abandon the God of Abraham and Moses and take up the gods of the Philistines and Canaanites?
> Enough times that he gave up on them and let them be scattered to the winds.
Click to expand...


If you are using the Bible as your basis, I suggest you go back and look very closely at Deuteronomy:  GOD stated that the Covenant of Sinai rests on HIS Faithfulness, not that of the Children of Israel.  Thus, He will never 'give up on them' as you suppose.

Of course, if you choose to believe in the supercessionist doctrines some in Christianity embrace, then you could hardly care less about His Covenant with the Jewish People.

Just don't be expecting any Jew to ever agree with you on that.


----------



## MHunterB

"It is interesting to note that when the PLO defined who is a Palestinian, they included native Jews to be citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians are equal under the law without regard to race, religion, sex, etc..

Israel, on the other hand, has no constitutional guarantee of equal rights. Israel has laws, practices, and procedures that discriminate against non Jews. "

What are you calling 'the Palestinian constitution' - is that the PA/Fatah Charter or HAMAS' Charter?   

And won't you present the actual language of actual laws in Israel which discriminate against nonJews?

As for 'Palestinian Arabs living within Israel' - about 20% of Israelis are Muslim or Christian Arabs who are indistinguishable from 'Palestinians'.  They're already citizens.

If you are talking about people in Jerusalem, they have been offered citizenship - and are taking up that offer in increasing numbers.

If you are talking about people in the WB - I believe that would depend on whether they are in Area A, B, or C as those are under differing control.  There is no point I can see for people in the PA-exclusively controlled area becoming Israeli citizens:  can you?


----------



## P F Tinmore

MHunterB said:


> "It is interesting to note that when the PLO defined who is a Palestinian, they included native Jews to be citizens.
> 
> The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians are equal under the law without regard to race, religion, sex, etc..
> 
> Israel, on the other hand, has no constitutional guarantee of equal rights. Israel has laws, practices, and procedures that discriminate against non Jews. "
> 
> What are you calling 'the Palestinian constitution' - is that the PA/Fatah Charter or HAMAS' Charter?
> 
> And won't you present the actual language of actual laws in Israel which discriminate against nonJews?
> 
> As for 'Palestinian Arabs living within Israel' - about 20% of Israelis are Muslim or Christian Arabs who are indistinguishable from 'Palestinians'.  They're already citizens.
> 
> If you are talking about people in Jerusalem, they have been offered citizenship - and are taking up that offer in increasing numbers.
> 
> If you are talking about people in the WB - I believe that would depend on whether they are in Area A, B, or C as those are under differing control.  There is no point I can see for people in the PA-exclusively controlled area becoming Israeli citizens:  can you?





> What are you calling 'the Palestinian constitution' - is that the PA/Fatah Charter or HAMAS' Charter?



Neither. The Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of a US constitutional scholar. It is quite similar to ours but the bill of rights seems to be more comprehensive.

Just one example is that an Israeli Jew can marry a Jew from anywhere and bring the spouse back to live in Israel. If an Israeli Arab marries a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza or elsewhere that won't happen.


----------



## Intense

MHunterB said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4Horsemen said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.
> 
> and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Peleset or P'lishtim - Philistines - had a confederation of five TINY city-states in the vicinity of Gaza.  Their culture has been extinct since Biblical times - Samson was in the pre-Davidic period of Judges.  The Philistines  were no relation to the current Semitic people known as 'Palestinians'.
Click to expand...


We are all related.


----------



## P F Tinmore

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?
> 
> If these are terrorists, then theyre criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to retaliate into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.
> 
> But the West Bank and Gaza isnt recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.
> 
> The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response  to attack civilian targets with a First World military force  violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesnt mitigate the fact that Israels policy is illegal.
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation  Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesnt care; given the current government its most likely the latter.
Click to expand...




> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...



I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.


----------



## jillian

P F Tinmore said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?
> 
> If these are terrorists, then theyre criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to retaliate into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.
> 
> But the West Bank and Gaza isnt recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.
> 
> The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response  to attack civilian targets with a First World military force  violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesnt mitigate the fact that Israels policy is illegal.
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation  Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesnt care; given the current government its most likely the latter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.
Click to expand...


the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.

thanks.


----------



## MHunterB

Intense, of course on one level we are every last one of us related.

However, in terms of culture, the Philistine culture died out long before the Palestinian culture arose - which was what I was discussing.  So we're not really in disagreement.  In fact, the Biblical account of Adam and Eve is used in Judaism to illustrate the fact that all humans are related and made by the same Creator, as well as to illustrate that each single one of us is of value and importance.


----------



## P F Tinmore

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?
> 
> If these are terrorists, then theyre criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to retaliate into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.
> 
> But the West Bank and Gaza isnt recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.
> 
> The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response  to attack civilian targets with a First World military force  violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesnt mitigate the fact that Israels policy is illegal.
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation  Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesnt care; given the current government its most likely the latter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.
> 
> thanks.
Click to expand...


I am not trashing a thread. I am just stating fact. There is no border between Gaza and Israel.


----------



## MHunterB

I'm still waiting to see the actual words of the 'Palestinian Constitution':  I don't care *who* presumably helped write it, that was irrelevent to its actual specific content.

Nor has PFT provided any support for his allegations about Israeli laws 'disriminating against nonJews' as he had claimed.

Now it appears he has a unique definition of what the word 'border' means.


----------



## koshergrl

uscitizen said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you going somewhere with that observation? Are you implying that since it's impossible, we should just let them kill all the Jews in the Middle East, and ultimately, everywhere? I mean, honestly, there's never going to be worldwide peace...so why ever defend anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that is a quandry.
> They will continue to kill and squabble no matter what we do.
> Both sides have valid points.
> Should we side with either of them to wipe out the other side?
> Some one will side with the wiped out side and replace them...
> Actually more than 2 sides are involved....
> 
> so do we keep playing their game?
> or let them work it out?
> 
> Ban all weapons in the area and kill anyone with a weapon regardelss of the side?
> UN storm troopers on every corner?
> That would likely be the best way to pull the opposite sides together for a time, till they defeated the ones opressing them and preventing them from killing each other?
Click to expand...



Yeah, well, I don't see it that way. There may be two sides, but only one is worthy of our support.  I have yet to see the Israeli Army using their own people as human shields or strapping bombs onto children.


----------



## P F Tinmore

MHunterB said:


> I'm still waiting to see the actual words of the 'Palestinian Constitution':  I don't care *who* presumably helped write it, that was irrelevent to its actual specific content.
> 
> Nor has PFT provided any support for his allegations about Israeli laws 'disriminating against nonJews' as he had claimed.
> 
> Now it appears he has a unique definition of what the word 'border' means.





> Title Two  Public Rights and Liberties
> 
> Article 9
> 
> Palestinians shall be equal before the law and the judiciary, without distinction based upon race, sex, color, religion, political views or disability.
> 
> Article 10
> 
> Basic human rights and liberties shall be protected and respected.
> The Palestinian National Authority shall work without delay to become a party to regional and international declarations and covenants that protect human rights.
> 
> Article 11
> 
> Personal freedom is a natural right, shall be guaranteed and may not be violated.
> It is unlawful to arrest, search, imprison, restrict the freedom, or prevent the movement of any person, except by judicial order in accordance with the provisions of the law. The law shall specify the period of prearrest detention. Imprisonment or detention shall only be permitted in places that are subject to laws related to the organization of prisons.
> 
> Article 12
> 
> Every arrested or detained person shall be informed of the reason for their arrest or detention. They shall be promptly informed, in a language they understand, of the nature of the charges brought against them. They shall have the right to contact a lawyer and to be tried before a court without delay.
> 
> Article 13
> 
> No person shall be subject to any duress or torture. Indictees and all persons deprived of their freedom shall receive  proper treatment.
> All statements or confessions obtained through violation of the provisions contained in paragraph 1 of this article shall be considered null and void.
> 
> Article 14
> 
> An accused person is considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law that guarantees the accused the right to a defense. Any person accused in a criminal case shall be represented by a lawyer.
> 
> Article 15
> 
> Punishment shall be personal. Collective punishment is prohibited. Crime and punishment shall only be determined by the law. Punishment shall be imposed only by judicial order and shall apply only to actions committed after the entry into force of the law.
> 
> Article 16
> 
> It is unlawful to conduct any medical or scientific experiment on any person without prior legal consent.  No person shall be subject to medical examination, treatment or surgery, except in accordance with the law.
> 
> Transplantation of human organs and new scientific developments shall be regulated by the law in order to serve legitimate humanitarian purposes.
> 
> Article 17
> 
> Homes shall be inviolable; they may not be subject to surveillance, broken into or searched, except in accordance with a valid judicial order and in accordance with the provisions of the law.
> 
> Any consequences resulting from violations of this article shall be considered invalid.  Individuals who suffer from such violation shall be entitled to a fair remedy, guaranteed by the Palestinian National Authority.
> 
> Article 18
> 
> Freedom of belief, worship and the performance of religious functions are guaranteed, provided public order or public morals are not violated.
> 
> Article 19
> 
> Freedom of opinion may not be prejudiced. Every person shall have the right to express his opinion and to circulate it orally, in writing or in any form of expression or art, with due consideration to the provisions of the law.
> 
> 2003 Amended Basic Law | The Palestinian Basic Law



I have to be at work in 6 hours. I can look up those other items if you wish.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

P F Tinmore said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not trashing a thread. I am just stating fact. There is no border between Gaza and Israel.
Click to expand...


There is no border between California and Oregon either, what's your point?


----------



## Cowman

If you're wanting to make that analogy, us demolishing the mexican civilian population and really putting the shoe to them for things that the mexican cartels do, is what Israel is doing to the majority of palestinians.


----------



## idb

The analogy is speculative because the US has never annexed territory from Mexico so "retaliation" would clearly be illegal...oh, hang on........


----------



## editec

jillian said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt anyone, regardless of their POV about Isreal, is really CONFUSED about why Israel responds to attacks in kind, Jill.
> 
> You and I both know that the day-to-day fighting and attacks aren't really the issue that the pro-Zionists and anti-Zionists are debating.
> 
> 
> 
> WE can try to paint on side as pure evil the other as saintly, we can search back in history to try to decide who has more right to control, we can piss and moan about this opportunity for peace or that, we can debate how many terrorists can dance on the head of a pin, but NONE OD THAT is really the issue, is it?
> 
> The issue remains exactly what it was in 1948.
> 
> *Who controls the land, the Moslems or the Jews*?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who lost the wars?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Palestinian/Arab nations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what other group lost and had hysteria from other parts of the world demanding a do-over, or more absurdly, demanding a return of the land that was lost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Palestinian/Arab nations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i always say, half tongue in cheek, that i want my great grandfather's land in belarus back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, Jill, if you had the power to impose your will on the people of Belarus you'd have it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but are the pals any different than my family who had to leave where they were from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apparently they think so, and given that many of them are still living in Israel, and they're still lobbing rockets into Israeli cities, they ARE different than you family (or mine, too)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stuff happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, that was actually sort of MY point, too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i don't see anyone demanding that my family property be returned to me, or more absurdly, a 'right of return'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Me, neither. So what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do you think irish who left because of the troubles are entitled to the return of what they left?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I suppose they would be if they choose to _AND they had the military power to impose their will._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it's the double standard accorded these people that i'm asking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh its exactly the same standard for the Israeli as it is for every other nation or people, Jill. ---- _*Might is making RIGHT.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and with any other country "THERE IS NO QUESTION" about who controls the land...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nonsense. There are disputes about who owns land all over the world, Jill. And without exception, them what has the *most M*IGHT will find that they have the *RIGHT* to impose thier will on those without it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same as we control Texas and California
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly, right.
> 
> So you DO really understand _my_ point.
> 
> The USA owns Texas and California because it took them *by force.*
> 
> The Israeli do control that land because they had *the MIGHT to give them the RIGHT.*
> 
> The Palestinians *continue to fight* because they still have *SOME MIGHT* *which gives them THAT RIGHT.*
> 
> 
> My point here hopefully is clear.
> 
> Trying to impose a MORAL component on GEOPOLITICS is silly.
> 
> NATIONS do not CARE about morality. they are NOT held to any moral standard* EXCEPT by force*
> 
> Isreal does not, the USA does not, the Palestinians do not NOBODY is held to any moral standard  *if they have the MIGHT to define their RIGHTS.*
Click to expand...


----------



## Truthseeker420

MHunterB said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4Horsemen said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.
> 
> and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Peleset or P'lishtim - Philistines - had a confederation of five TINY city-states in the vicinity of Gaza.  Their culture has been extinct since Biblical times - Samson was in the pre-Davidic period of Judges.  The Philistines  were no relation to the current Semitic people known as 'Palestinians'.
Click to expand...


That's not rue, they have been mentioned in text of every power that has controlled that area from the time of Canaan. They were highly civilized and powerful people that were part of Canaan society that could not be defeated by the Hebrews.


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?
> 
> If these are terrorists, then theyre criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to retaliate into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.
> 
> But the West Bank and Gaza isnt recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.
> 
> The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response  to attack civilian targets with a First World military force  violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesnt mitigate the fact that Israels policy is illegal.
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation  Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesnt care; given the current government its most likely the latter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.
> 
> thanks.
Click to expand...


it was a legitimate response. if you set up a fictitious scenario, it is subect to a very wide interpretation. P F is about as far from a trash poster as you can get. he is extrordinarily polite and civil.

there is a lehal and internationally recognised border between the USA and mexico. there is none between israel and palestine. that applies to the sovereignty of what you were discussing.


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> I'm still waiting to see the actual words of the 'Palestinian Constitution':  I don't care *who* presumably helped write it, that was irrelevent to its actual specific content.
> 
> Nor has PFT provided any support for his allegations about Israeli laws 'disriminating against nonJews' as he had claimed.
> 
> Now it appears he has a unique definition of what the word 'border' means.



and i am still waiting to see the actual words of israel's constitution.

http://www.adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html

Israel Knesset: New Israel laws discriminate against Israeli Arabs, critics say - Los Angeles Times


----------



## MHunterB

What is MOST interesting is what PF left OUT of his quote from the PLO 'Constitution'.


----------



## MHunterB

Cowman said:


> If you're wanting to make that analogy, us demolishing the mexican civilian population and really putting the shoe to them for things that the mexican cartels do, is what Israel is doing to the majority of palestinians.



Where are you getting that 'majority of Palestinians'????   The majority in Gaza?   Doesn't HAMAS have ANY responsibility to refrain from stashing their rockets next to schools, hospitals, etc?

Why not address the choice of HAMAS to maximize potential civilian casualties in the event of attacks which they have to know WILL come while they try to blow up kindergartens and school buses?


----------



## MHunterB

*Article 4
 1.Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained.
 2.The principles of Islamic Shari&#8217;a shall be a principal source of legislation.
 3.Arabic shall be the official language.*


There is no way to maintain 'equal' rights while having a state religion, so many critics of Israel state.   
How does one maintain a democracy with a religion-specific legal basis?


*Article 7

Palestinian citizenship shall be regulated by law.*

There were about 950,000 people across the Arab lands in the ME who found out that their citizenship and EVERYTHING they owned - including their land - could be legislated out from under them.  They were redefined 'democratically' by legislative means as "hostile aliens" and ejected from their countries.  They were ethnic Arabs, yes.


----------



## MHunterB

"That's not rue, they have been mentioned in text of every power that has controlled that area from the time of Canaan. They were highly civilized and powerful people that were part of Canaan society that could not be defeated by the Hebrews."

'Truthseeker', the P'lishtim were Sea Peoples like the Phonecians:  they were not part of C'na'an at all.  I will find you sources from archaeological excavations if you insist.  Meanwhile, where are *your* sources?   I ask because people sometimes claim, for example, that 'Josephus talks about Christ' and such - but it's been known in professional circles that those passages are later interpolations.

Also, I did not state -as you appear to think I did! - that the Israelites did not wipe out the Peleset.   Yes, they were spoken of in the Bible as being at war, but that is hardly a 'historical' reference.

Incidentally, even quite orthodox Jews do not interpret the Hebrew Bible so literally as do modern 'born-again' and many other Christians do.  The rules of exegesis are also different (should be obvious, but people seldom think about that!).


----------



## Katzndogz

WillowTree said:


> Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.



Israel can turn the whole of the middle east into a warm glow and they should.   Islam needs to be shoveled back into the hole it crawled out of.


----------



## WillowTree

Katzndogz said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel can turn the whole of the middle east into a warm glow and they should.   Islam needs to be shoveled back into the hole it crawled out of.
Click to expand...


Well I thought about that, works except they are right in the middle of said warm glow! They'd have to evacuate the population about 8 million which would be a dead give a way. 


Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Dot Com

Willlow's right. (I post that about 3X/year  )


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Cowman said:


> If you're wanting to make that analogy, us demolishing the mexican civilian population and really putting the shoe to them for things that the mexican cartels do, is what Israel is doing to the majority of palestinians.



Actually, no. The majority of Palestinians support Hamas, the majority of Mexicans oppose the drug cartels. This can easily be demonstrated by the fact that Hamas won an election in Gaza, yet the Cartels have never won one in Mexico.


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel can turn the whole of the middle east into a warm glow and they should.   Islam needs to be shoveled back into the hole it crawled out of.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I thought about that, works except they are right in the middle of said warm glow! They'd have to evacuate the population about 8 million which would be a dead give a way.
> 
> 
> Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


yep. and turning the region into a sheet of glass kind of defeats the whole purpose, doesn't it?


----------



## jillian

idb said:


> The analogy is speculative because the US has never annexed territory from Mexico so "retaliation" would clearly be illegal...oh, hang on........



countries don't win land in battle?


----------



## jillian

oldfart said:


> Jillian, it's been a good discussion even when it's been messy so you did good to start it.  My take:
> 
> 1.  If there was a military or anti-terrorist solution to Gaza the Israelis would have done it by now.  Remember Lebanon?  I think the Israelis are just winging this one; they will do a sweep, remove a lot of weapon stashes, kill a number of Hamas fighters and innocent civilians and people who are in between, and then leave.  Hamas will then return.  Repeat in five years.
> 
> 2.   Neither the Palestinian Authority nor Israel recognize Hamas, so this is not a conflict between nations.   If there was some way to bring Gaza under the control of the Palestinian Authority, they would probably be able to stop the attacks.  But if Israel knew how to do that, they would have done it by now.  See a pattern?
> 
> 3.  I don't see anything the United States can do to help that the Israelis and Palestinian Authority working together could not do better.  So working out a deal to settle the larger issues is probably the only way to resolve Gaza in the next 100 years or so.
> 
> 4.  This would put the United States squarely in the middle of Israeli domestic politics, where America should not be.
> 
> I understand the frustration, but I really don't see much America can do to help.  If America takes responsibility for resolving the situation in some military sense, how would it enforce that solution if either or both parties broke it?  For example, say we got everyone to agree to allow a Palestinian Authority police force in Gaza to stop rocket attacks, the Palestinian Authority agreed to throw in the towel on those parts of the occupied territories on the Israeli side of the wall, and Israel agreed to treat   the Palestinian Authority full recognition and to accord Palestinians living inside Israel full rights of citizenship (note that these conditions are anathema to the parties asked to bend on them).  What do we do when Hamas manages to sneak a few rockets into Gaza and launch them?  Or if Israel decides to expand its settlements program?  Or both?  I just don't see how America can act as a guarantor of a treaty in a military sense in this conflict.
> 
> OK, I'm done so everyone can resume the crossfire.



thanks for the complement. i purposely didn't place it in the israel/pal section so it wouldn't devolve into  i hate jews//i hate muslims nonsense. plus, this isn't really about israel retaliating for being bombed. i think every nation has the right to send to kingdom come anyone lobbing missiles at it.

my main question is: why the obvious double standard as regards israel? i believe i know why. but i wanted to raise the subject and see what was said.

1. As to the military solution. There is. But Israel has complied with our wishes to be moderate. Clearly Israel could have flattened gaza. She hasn't. As for Lebanon, Bush II, made Israel back down and not finish the job against hezbollah. I think that was a huge mistake, personally, because it was the first time israel looked beatable.... hence what is going on now.

2. while fatah doesn't recognize hamas... hamas was elected in the gaza because bush II, again, thought it a good idea to force elections. and they will fight hamas internally, but they will never side with israel... the people of the west bank would toss them from power so fast their heads would spin.

3. the united states can do a lot. we have a lot of power in the UN, even if it is only veto. we have a lot of diplomatic muscle, too. plus, we can pressure egypt to pressure hamas b/c egypt likes our dollars and wants that loan i mentioned from the international monetary fund. we can also convene a camp david type gathering and make them sit there til they have a deal. 
just to give you a little bit about the mentality of palestinians in terms of making a deal with israel, when arafat had the chance to sign on to an agreement that would have given the palestinians 98% of their demands, arafat said no, because if he cut a deal he "would be drinking tea with rabin".

4. where the US as a leader should be is standing behind our ally... and if we want to be a world leader, then we need to be there when the whatever starts to hit the fan.


----------



## Toro

... half of them would be late and none of them would work.










Kidding!  Kidding!  Me encanta México!


----------



## jillian

Toro said:


> ... half of them would be late and none of them would work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kidding!  Kidding!  Me encanta México!


----------



## oldfart

jillian said:


> my main question is: why the obvious double standard as regards israel? i believe i know why. but i wanted to raise the subject and see what was said.


First of all, I am an American and neither pro-Israel or anti-Israel.  If I seem to exhibit a double standard please explain it to me.  If this is intended as a generic statement about some group other than myself, please make that clear.  I'm not upset about anything, I just have enough trouble explaining myself and am loathe to take on responsibility for what other people say or do.  



jillian said:


> 1. As to the military solution. There is. But Israel has complied with our wishes to be moderate. Clearly Israel could have flattened gaza. She hasn't.



So you think the solution is that Israel has not been allowed to use sufficient military force?  If so how much force are you proposing using?  And what case do you make for that being sufficient?  

I've seen this genus of argument applied to a lot of situations over the years (most notably Vietnam)  and I pose the same objection to it.  Suppose you are not entitled to commit mass murder.  What reason do you have to believe that an escalation of force will achieve your objectives?  When one escalation fails, do you simply go to the next and kill more people?  I'm not making a moral argument here, but a practical one.  At some point, attempting a solution by force will invite third party intervention.  This happened in 1956.  But in the present circumstances I find it hard to believe that the intervention would be by the United States and I believe it would be a military rather than diplomatic intervention.  If a regional war were to be the result and if Israel seemed to not be able to win or survive such a war, what would your solution be?  American intervention?  Is your ultimate position that America should give Israel a blank check to conduct military actions with assurance that America will intervene militarily on its side if events turn against it?  Such a course of action is not consistent with American interests or American values.  

American commitments to defend Israel do not extend to underwriting military adventurism.  This is not a road any rational American wants to go down, so the best thing to do is not take that first step of condoning or encouraging military esclation.  

 [





jillian said:


> 3. the united states can do a lot. we have a lot of power in the UN, even if it is only veto. we have a lot of diplomatic muscle, too. plus, we can pressure egypt to pressure hamas b/c egypt likes our dollars and wants that loan i mentioned from the international monetary fund. we can also convene a camp david type gathering and make them sit there til they have a deal.



I wish your evaluation of American diplomatic power was correct, but I think you vastly overstate it.  Are you suggesting we bring Jimmy Carter out of retirement to conduct a Mideast peace conference?  You do realize his current thoughts on the Middle East do you not?

 [





jillian said:


> just to give you a little bit about the mentality of palestinians in terms of making a deal with israel, when arafat had the chance to sign on to an agreement that would have given the palestinians 98% of their demands, arafat said no, because if he cut a deal he "would be drinking tea with rabin".



I must confess that I cannot think of a reply to this that is not offensive or snarky.  Perhaps if you reread your comment you will realize why I make that statement.  



jillian said:


> 4. where the US as a leader should be is standing behind our ally... and if we want to be a world leader, then we need to be there when the whatever starts to hit the fan.


American policy should be to advance American interests and American values.  What specifically are  you proposing America do now that it has not done in the past and how would that have any conceivable effect in Gaza?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

jillian said:


> [
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?



Obviously the Arabs don't like the idea of Israel occupying their land


----------



## jillian

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously the Arabs don't like the idea of Israel occupying their land
Click to expand...


it's not the Arab's land.

thanks for proving my point, though.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

jillian said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously the Arabs don't like the idea of Israel occupying their land
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it's not the Arab's land.
> 
> thanks for proving my point, though.
Click to expand...


then why do so many Arabs have keys to their old houses on the land and why does most of the world regard Israel as illegitimate??


----------



## jillian

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously the Arabs don't like the idea of Israel occupying their land
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it's not the Arab's land.
> 
> thanks for proving my point, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> then why do so many Arabs have keys to their old houses on the land and why does most of the world regard Israel as illegitimate??
Click to expand...


i don't deal in lies. thanks. i'm sure there are at least a dozen threads in the israel/pal section that you can play on. i was kind of hoping to keep this one at least semi-cogent.


----------



## Toro

jillian said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> it's not the Arab's land.
> 
> thanks for proving my point, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then why do so many Arabs have keys to their old houses on the land and why does most of the world regard Israel as illegitimate??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i don't deal in lies. thanks. i'm sure there are at least a dozen threads in the israel/pal section that you can play on. i was kind of hoping to keep this one at least semi-cogent.
Click to expand...


Yeah, and why do the Joos control the world banks, media and British monarchy too?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

jillian said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> it's not the Arab's land.
> 
> thanks for proving my point, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then why do so many Arabs have keys to their old houses on the land and why does most of the world regard Israel as illegitimate??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i don't deal in lies. thanks. i'm sure there are at least a dozen threads in the israel/pal section that you can play on. i was kind of hoping to keep this one at least semi-cogent.
Click to expand...


please say exactly what the lie is or admit you cant.

Are you saying no Arabs had their homes stolen by Israel? And, the world does think Israel is legitimate?????? Please tell us.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Obama will burn with hellfire any Muslim country to a blackened crisp that launched an atomic attack against Israel.

Obama will rearm the armaments and munition bunkers and the warehouses and ship all the gunships, etc., the Israel expends.

Two-state solution, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall remains.


----------



## jillian

oldfart said:


> First of all, I am an American and neither pro-Israel or anti-Israel.  If I seem to exhibit a double standard please explain it to me.  If this is intended as a generic statement about some group other than myself, please make that clear.  I'm not upset about anything, I just have enough trouble explaining myself and am loathe to take on responsibility for what other people say or do.



i wasn't referring to you applying a double standard. i was speaking generally. my o/p preceded any input from any individual person on this thread.




> So you think the solution is that Israel has not been allowed to use sufficient military force?  If so how much force are you proposing using?  And what case do you make for that being sufficient?



i was responding to your statement that if there were a military solution, israel would have already found it. 

do you really believe that israel is not capable of wiping out the gaza just by virtue of military superiority should it choose to do so?



> I've seen this genus of argument applied to a lot of situations over the years (most notably Vietnam)  and I pose the same objection to it.  Suppose you are not entitled to commit mass murder.  What reason do you have to believe that an escalation of force will achieve your objectives?  When one escalation fails, do you simply go to the next and kill more people?  I'm not making a moral argument here, but a practical one.  At some point, attempting a solution by force will invite third party intervention.  This happened in 1956.  But in the present circumstances I find it hard to believe that the intervention would be by the United States and I believe it would be a military rather than diplomatic intervention.  If a regional war were to be the result and if Israel seemed to not be able to win or survive such a war, what would your solution be?  American intervention?  Is your ultimate position that America should give Israel a blank check to conduct military actions with assurance that America will intervene militarily on its side if events turn against it?  Such a course of action is not consistent with American interests or American values.



while i see your point about vietnam, this is a bit different because in vietnam, what was at issue was some vague question of what type of government they are going to live under. this is far deeper and is a survival issue as far as israel sees it. 



> American commitments to defend Israel do not extend to underwriting military adventurism.  This is not a road any rational American wants to go down, so the best thing to do is not take that first step of condoning or encouraging military esclation.



it isn't adventurism to defend oneself from missile strikes. israel has every right to decimate hamas.



> I wish your evaluation of American diplomatic power was correct, but I think you vastly overstate it.  Are you suggesting we bring Jimmy Carter out of retirement to conduct a Mideast peace conference?  You do realize his current thoughts on the Middle East do you not?



i don't like jimmy carter... but you have the right idea. i would choose a more honest broker.



> I must confess that I cannot think of a reply to this that is not offensive or snarky.  Perhaps if you reread your comment you will realize why I make that statement.



that statement was simply to illustrate the political difficulty anyone representing the palestinians would have in making a deal. it doesn't deserve a snarky response. and yes, i'm aware that rabin was killed by his own wacko... i never said there were no wackos on the other side. but that doesn't have a single thing to do with israel's right to defend against missile attacks. 



> American policy should be to advance American interests and American values.  What specifically are  you proposing America do now that it has not done in the past and how would that have any conceivable effect in Gaza?



it is in america's interest to stand by its allies.

and more than that, it's in america's interests to do the right thing.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

jillian said:


> do you really believe that israel is not capable of wiping out the gaza just by virtue of military superiority should it choose to do so?



they cant do it because they feel guilty, they are a moral people.


----------



## oldfart

jillian said:


> do you really believe that israel is not capable of wiping out the gaza just by virtue of military superiority should it choose to do so?


I believe there is a deep political divide in Israel.  A majority of Israeli's are not yet ready to deal with the consequences of either killing and expelling  all Palestinians from Gaza or of trying to rule the area under a military government.  What do you mean by "wiping out the Gaza"?  It has a population of a bit over 1.7 million.  



jillian said:


> while i see your point about vietnam, this is a bit different because in vietnam


With all due respect, people who propose military escalation always say, "But this case is different".   I gave the same set of questions that any thinking person would ask about a policy of escalation, and like advocates of escalation, you don't want to consider them hoping this time will be different.    I suggest you find your answers to those questions before you buy into the game of escalato any further.  



jillian said:


> it isn't adventurism to defend oneself from missile strikes. israel has every right to decimate hamas.


I told you I was not making a moral argument but a practical one.  Adventurism has nothing to do with morality.  It is a policy of reckless military action without due regard for the consequences.  Tell me what military action you are proposing and what train of thought leads you to believe it achieves your objectives.  



jillian said:


> I don't like jimmy carter... but you have the right idea. i would choose a more honest broker.


Ah, it's like deciding which of the mice will bell the cat.  



jillian said:


> it is in america's interest to stand by its allies.


The same argument has been made about Nationalist China, South Korea, South Vietnam, Germany, Greece and Turkey, Iraq,Afganistan,and international peacekeeping efforts in Yugoslavia and Somalia.  Some times America stayed and sometimes America left. I would not like to defend the argument that in each case America should have "stayed the course".  



jillian said:


> and more than that, it's in america's interests to do the right thing.


Again I have not been making a moral argument, so I must concede this to you.  In return I ask that you consider the proabble consequences of the course of action you are advocating.  

There is a famous experiment in child development where a group of children in the age range of six to eight are asked how authorities shoud act if a citizen willfully disobeys and commits an offense such as jaywalking.  Most children begin with the reasonable suggestion of an approrriate punishment.  When asked what to do if this does not work. They reply to escalate the punishment.  Ultimately many end up advocating capital punishment for jaywalking!  This is how a theory of justice (or more precisely a sense of injustice) develops.  The sense of injustice comes first.  The nuance of the limits of punishment in achieving compliance and proportionality with the offense come later for some people and never for a few.  You obviously have the intelligence andmoral compass to avoid that trap in looking a the situation in Gaza.  My original answer was intended to ask the questions and apromptyou to use those graces to com to a less emotionally satisfying but more productive position.  

All the best,


----------



## uscitizen

You know if we had been bulldozing down the Mexicans homes and taking their land they might have good reason to fire missles at us.

One cannot just look at one thing and draw a proper conclusion.


----------



## syrenn

jillian said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.
Click to expand...


the double standard is becasue...

Its all about giving muslims a pass. No one wants to do the un PC thing and say the words to piss them off.


----------



## Wiseacre

Israel wants to peacefully co-exist.   That's it.   The palestinian people elected the head of a terrorist organization whose avowed purpose is the destruction of Israel.   They've been firing missiles into civilian areas in Israel and sending in suicide bombers for years.   Far as I'm concerned, Israel is more than justified in reducing Gaza to rubble.


----------



## uscitizen

Let each of them reduce each other to rubble.  We should not be involved.


----------



## jillian

syrenn said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the double standard is becasue...
> 
> Its all about giving muslims a pass. No one wants to do the un PC thing and say the words to piss them off.
Click to expand...


i don't believe that's the reason. i think it's more complicated than that.


----------



## jillian

Wiseacre said:


> Israel wants to peacefully co-exist.   That's it.   The palestinian people elected the head of a terrorist organization whose avowed purpose is the destruction of Israel.   They've been firing missiles into civilian areas in Israel and sending in suicide bombers for years.   Far as I'm concerned, Israel is more than justified in reducing Gaza to rubble.



the question needs to be asked is:

what would happen if the palestinians unilaterally stopped firing missiles?

the answer is that israel would stop firing back.

but what would happen if israel disarmed?

the palestinians would drive it to the sea.

i think that pretty much sums up the situation there.

which again, begs the question, why the double standard vis israel as opposed to the rest of the world?


----------



## P F Tinmore

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



There are some inconsistencies in your analogy.

One is that in 1848 there was no international law against the acquisition of land by war. In 1948 there was, and still is.

Another is that the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was a peace agreement that ended the Mexican-American war and set agreed upon borders.

There has never been a peace agreement ending the Israel-Palestine war. The international borders of Palestine have not changed since they were defined in 1922. Israel remains inside Palestine's international borders.

The statement "firing rockets into Israel" makes no sense since Israel is in Palestine.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Palestinians and their Arab allies tried to wipe the Israelis and their nation off the face of the earth.

The Palestinians have got what they have earned: nothing.

Everything for Palestine depends on Israeli _ largess_.  Everything.


----------



## Dr Grump

P F Tinmore said:


> The statement "firing rockets into Israel" makes no sense since Israel is in Palestine.



Semantics. They are firing rockets without care or regard to the civilian population. If they stop, Israel will stop. Simple.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Israel must confront the Palestinians until the rockets stop.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

jillian said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gov't = You have got to look at our administration. They would just rather us get our ass kicked than do shit about it
> People = Seems to me alot of peopple dont like Isreal. Maybe they are in fear of us actually helping them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think any US government is concerned about ticking off the arab world. that's why bush I asked israel not to respond to SCUD attacks during gulf I.. .and bush II made israel back down instead of taking out hezbollah in lebanon.
> 
> in terms of the people in general, it appears there is a huge undercurrent of anti-semitism. and there's also this misplaced idea that hamas are underdogs.
Click to expand...


I'm very grateful to the Obama administration has refused to get our soldiers killed. Instead of starting or participating in wars, he has kept deaths, maiming and expense to a minimum while thoroughly kicking butt. I'm sure most people have been surprised to find him to be a very aggressive hawk. (Now if he would just move up the get-out-date in Afghanistan but that is a whole nother set of problems.)

I could not agree more that Israel and Palestine need to settle this themselves but that's not going to happen. 

I also agree that, just as with other bigotry and racism, anti-antisemitism runs deep.


----------



## Truthseeker420

syrenn said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the double standard is becasue...
> 
> Its all about giving muslims a pass. No one wants to do the un PC thing and say the words to piss them off.
Click to expand...


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4]Israel and Hamas Gaza Strikes: The &#39;Collateral Damage&#39; (Disturbing Video) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## jillian

Truthseeker420 said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
> 
> i have my own ideas about it. but i'm interested in hearing the opinions of people who don't have a horse in the race.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the double standard is becasue...
> 
> Its all about giving muslims a pass. No one wants to do the un PC thing and say the words to piss them off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4]Israel and Hamas Gaza Strikes: The 'Collateral Damage' (Disturbing Video) - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...


and?

they shouldn't send missiles into israel.
and shouldn't use their people as human shields.

d'uh.

but again, this thread isn't one of your pali propaganda threads. it asks a different question.

terrorist supporters like you notwithstanding.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Israel, who despite the armed assaults of it enemies, has existed for 64 years, will exist another 1,064.

When the rockets stop, peace will come.  Until then, Palestinians alone are responsible for hating their own children.


----------



## jillian

JakeStarkey said:


> Israel, who despite the armed assaults of it enemies, has existed for 64 years, will exist another 1,064.
> 
> When the rockets stop, peace will come.  Until then, Palestinians alone are responsible for hating their own children.



at some point, they do have to make the choice that golda meir spoke about... loving their children more than they hate israelis.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Palestinians are the own worst enemies.


----------



## P F Tinmore

JakeStarkey said:


> Israel, who despite the armed assaults of it enemies, has existed for 64 years, will exist another 1,064.
> 
> When the rockets stop, peace will come.  Until then, Palestinians alone are responsible for hating their own children.



Not true. There are no rockets out of the West Bank and the Palestinians are still attacked by Israel.


----------



## HUGGY

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



I don't understand what your point is.  Maybe we are reading totally different posts but I have seen nothing condemming Israel for returning fire on suspected rocket launching sites.

My only problem in this whole deal is trying to drag America into it.  

I have another question to add to my reply and that is...  Do you believe that people are firing off rockets at Israel for absolutely no reason?  I do not believe that.  I believe that these rocket launcher Palistinians have a serious grievance or they would not provoke a very predictable retaliation by their actions.

Nobody wakes up one morning ...just bored...and decides ..HMMMmmmm  "hey why don't we launch some rockets at Israel today?"

There is obviously more to this than just Israel's side to this event.


----------



## editec

Jill, there is no double standard in the _reality_ of this conflict.

There are only double standards in POLITICAL rhetoric surrounding this conflict.

Now I totally understand why one might pose a rhetorical question about these double standards. 


But as to the WHY are there  double standards?


You know _exactly why_ partisans seek to judge themselves differently than their opponents.


Israel is really only being judged by one _real_ standard..._can it survive against those forces that would crush it._

That's the ONLY standard that Israel really has to care about, too.


----------



## Katzndogz

idb said:


> The analogy is speculative because the US has never annexed territory from Mexico so "retaliation" would clearly be illegal...oh, hang on........



You don't really think this do you?   You know all about the Treaty of Guadalupe, right?


----------



## Swagger

Can someone clarify/confirm something for me. Didn't the Knesset offer to return the West Bank back to Jordan, but Jordan said they could keep it, thus ridding them [the Jordanians] of any responsibility to the Palestinians?


----------



## Katzndogz

Many of the palestinians are unwanted Jordanians.


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> the double standard is becasue...
> 
> Its all about giving muslims a pass. No one wants to do the un PC thing and say the words to piss them off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4]Israel and Hamas Gaza Strikes: The 'Collateral Damage' (Disturbing Video) - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and?
> 
> they shouldn't send missiles into israel.
> and shouldn't use their people as human shields.
> 
> d'uh.
> 
> but again, this thread isn't one of your pali propaganda threads. it asks a different question.
> 
> terrorist supporters like you notwithstanding.
Click to expand...


come on. isn't this the CDZ? i think calling someone who supports justice for the palestinians a "terrorist supporter" is probaably tantamount to someone calling you a "war crimes advocate" or "genocide supporter" for your zionist stance.

also, i have seen you say you want to avoid the "tit fot tat" type of response that occurs on the palestine/israel board.

"d'uh" (as if that helps.)

i do not think that meant that those on your side could tit 'til the cows come home with nary a tat to be seen.

and again, i do not think just because you started this thread, and on a poor analogy i might add, that you have a right to dictate its direction.

truthseeker is doing a heck of a job.

just a reminder, jillian, this is the Clean Debate Zone and (this thread) was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread. please try to remember that.

and imagine what americans would do to mexico if mexico built a wall up to ft worth and enclosed dallas. i got a feelin' we would be shooting off more than rockets.

the analogy hurts if it is on the other foot, doesn't it.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Every nation has the right to use force against the illegitmate force used by other nations.  The West Bank is merely pissed they can't get homicide bombers into Israel.



P F Tinmore said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel, who despite the armed assaults of it enemies, has existed for 64 years, will exist another 1,064.
> 
> When the rockets stop, peace will come.  Until then, Palestinians alone are responsible for hating their own children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. There are no rockets out of the West Bank and the Palestinians are still attacked by Israel.
Click to expand...


----------



## JakeStarkey

Jillian is not ranting.

The dying in Gaza ends when the terrorists stop firing rockets.  That is the only fact that counts.


----------



## Truthseeker420

jillian said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> the double standard is becasue...
> 
> Its all about giving muslims a pass. No one wants to do the un PC thing and say the words to piss them off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4]Israel and Hamas Gaza Strikes: The 'Collateral Damage' (Disturbing Video) - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and?
> 
> they shouldn't send missiles into israel.
> and shouldn't use their people as human shields.
> 
> d'uh.
> 
> but again, this thread isn't one of your pali propaganda threads. it asks a different question.
> 
> terrorist supporters like you notwithstanding.
Click to expand...


They will quit sending missiles when Israel gets out of Palestinian land and offers a peace that is accepted by both sides. The video was in response to the hypocrisy comment and the fact you would call the The Young Turks video Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous..


----------



## Truthseeker420

JakeStarkey said:


> Israel, who despite the armed assaults of it enemies, has existed for 64 years, will exist another 1,064.
> 
> When the rockets stop, peace will come.  Until then, Palestinians alone are responsible for hating their own children.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4]Israel and Hamas Gaza Strikes: The &#39;Collateral Damage&#39; (Disturbing Video) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel, who despite the armed assaults of it enemies, has existed for 64 years, will exist another 1,064.
> 
> When the rockets stop, peace will come.  Until then, Palestinians alone are responsible for hating their own children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> at some point, they do have to make the choice that golda meir spoke about... loving their children more than they hate israelis.
Click to expand...


you just complained about propaganda and you come up with that.

need i bring the still living rabbis, dov lior and ovadiah yusef, to the fore with their pearls of talmudic wisdom?

maybe when they willing submit to slavery for their children, they will stop fighting back.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Arabs rose against their neighbors in 1948 and lost.  They have always lost.  They will always lose.

This is not slavery, only reality.

Two states, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall forever.

This is reality.


----------



## P F Tinmore

JakeStarkey said:


> The Arabs rose against their neighbors in 1948 and lost.  They have always lost.  They will always lose.
> 
> This is not slavery, only reality.
> 
> Two states, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall forever.
> 
> This is reality.



When did the Palestinians lose a war with Israel?


----------



## JakeStarkey

When the losers ask questions to which the answer is immaterial to their beliefs, you know they are aware they have lost.


----------



## P F Tinmore

JakeStarkey said:


> When the losers ask questions to which the answer is immaterial to their beliefs, you know they are aware they have lost.



Nice dodge.


----------



## JakeStarkey

No dodge, just fact.  This has been over since 1948, and your bleeding will stop when you come to your senses.


----------



## Truthseeker420

JakeStarkey said:


> The Arabs rose against their neighbors in 1948 and lost.  They have always lost.  They will always lose.
> 
> This is not slavery, only reality.
> 
> Two states, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall forever.
> 
> This is reality.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU]Muslim Demographics - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## P F Tinmore

JakeStarkey said:


> No dodge, just fact.  This has been over since 1948, and your bleeding will stop when you come to your senses.





> This has been over since 1948,...



Really, have you seen the news lately?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Really.  You have seen the Palestinians continue to die?

This has been over since 1948.  Where you live is home.  You are not going "to return".  Jerusalem will remain Jewish.  A two-state solution is a fact.

The bleeding continues only because you will not accept reality.  Allah looks at you and shakes His head at your futility.


----------



## sealadaigh

P F Tinmore said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the losers ask questions to which the answer is immaterial to their beliefs, you know they are aware they have lost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice dodge.
Click to expand...


lol...i didn't get that one at all.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

P F Tinmore said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Arabs rose against their neighbors in 1948 and lost.  They have always lost.  They will always lose.
> 
> This is not slavery, only reality.
> 
> Two states, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall forever.
> 
> This is reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When did the Palestinians lose a war with Israel?
Click to expand...


Obviously, winning a war does not give one the right to enslave or steal land.
That is the reality for most of the world and 70% of Israel.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Jefferson would easily have approved of the Israeli's current position and condemned the Palestinians for being such losers.


----------



## Againsheila

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



Of course there would be doubt.  They've already come across the border several times with their military and even shot at our border patrol.  Heck, our Border Patrol captured a bunch of them when Bush was President and was ordered to release them, along with their equipment.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

P F Tinmore said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Arabs rose against their neighbors in 1948 and lost.  They have always lost.  They will always lose.
> 
> This is not slavery, only reality.
> 
> Two states, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall forever.
> 
> This is reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When did the Palestinians lose a war with Israel?
Click to expand...


Gee maybe the US should enslave Germany. We won the war, didn't we??


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Germans did not keep shooting at us, Edward.


----------



## jillian

Dr Grump said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The statement "firing rockets into Israel" makes no sense since Israel is in Palestine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semantics. They are firing rockets without care or regard to the civilian population. If they stop, Israel will stop. Simple.
Click to expand...


ultimately, that's the crux of it. 

and that's the difference between the two sides.


----------



## jillian

JakeStarkey said:


> The Germans did not keep shooting at us, Edward.



edward seems to be uniquely misinformed.


----------



## Katzndogz

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Arabs rose against their neighbors in 1948 and lost.  They have always lost.  They will always lose.
> 
> This is not slavery, only reality.
> 
> Two states, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall forever.
> 
> This is reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When did the Palestinians lose a war with Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gee maybe the US should enslave Germany. We won the war, didn't we??
Click to expand...


Germany is not on our border.   We did annex land won in the war with mexico and mexicans hd been slaves in this country until democrats started giving them welfare.  Except for one time, when Eisenhower rounded them up and threw them out in Operation Wetback.


----------



## sealadaigh

Dr Grump said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The statement "firing rockets into Israel" makes no sense since Israel is in Palestine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semantics. They are firing rockets without care or regard to the civilian population. If they stop, Israel will stop. Simple.
Click to expand...


i cannot help but marvel at the ineptitude and lack of skill on the part of both the IDF and HAMAS.

while HAMAS deliberately targets civilians, or so the claim goes, it kills very few israeli civilians and children' and the IDF, who claims to do everything it can to protect innocent civilians and children, are piling the palestinians up by the score.

i imagine israelis will stop killing children just like they have stopped building settlements.

how're them semantics?


----------



## P F Tinmore

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Arabs rose against their neighbors in 1948 and lost.  They have always lost.  They will always lose.
> 
> This is not slavery, only reality.
> 
> Two states, no right of return, no divided Jerusalem, the wall forever.
> 
> This is reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When did the Palestinians lose a war with Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gee maybe the US should enslave Germany. We won the war, didn't we??
Click to expand...


Deflection.


----------



## jillian

reabhloideach said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The statement "firing rockets into Israel" makes no sense since Israel is in Palestine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semantics. They are firing rockets without care or regard to the civilian population. If they stop, Israel will stop. Simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i cannot help but marvel at the ineptitude and lack of skill on the part of both the IDF and HAMAS.
> 
> while HAMAS deliberately targets civilians, or so the claim goes, it kills very few israeli civilians and children' and the IDF, who claims to do everything it can to protect innocent civilians and children, are piling the palestinians up by the score.
> 
> i imagine israelis will stop killing children just like they have stopped building settlements.
> 
> how're them semantics?
Click to expand...


that's not ineptitude. that's hamas putting its weaponry in heavily populated areas.

israel has no reason not to retaliate and isn't going to not retaliat because hamas doesn't value the lives of it's people.

how's THAT for semantics?

once again, very simple... the hamas terrorists should stop sending missiles into israel.


----------



## High_Gravity

If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.


----------



## Katzndogz

P F Tinmore said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did the Palestinians lose a war with Israel?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gee maybe the US should enslave Germany. We won the war, didn't we??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Deflection.
Click to expand...


More precisely it's pettifoggery.


----------



## jillian

High_Gravity said:


> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.



which is exactly right. and exactly the point of my o/p.

which brings me once again to the question that some of the israel haters seem not to wand to address...

why the double standard?


----------



## Katzndogz

High_Gravity said:


> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.



Spare me.   The mexican cartels don't send rockets, merely send killers.   The hispanic gangs are the same kind of terrorists as the palestinians.  In fact, both the aztlan movement and the mexica movement refers to themselves as America's palestinians.  

Hispanic gangs kill more people in the US with their street army than the palestinians kill Jews with their rockets.  I don't see any military around with any kind of wrath at all.  In fact, if you want wrath, just waste one of these killers and see how fast it comes down on you.


----------



## jillian

Katzndogz said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spare me.   The mexican cartels don't send rockets, merely send killers.   The hispanic gangs are the same kind of terrorists as the palestinians.  In fact, both the aztlan movement and the mexica movement refers to themselves as America's palestinians.
> 
> Hispanic gangs kill more people in the US with their street army than the palestinians kill Jews with their rockets.  I don't see any military around with any kind of wrath at all.  In fact, if you want wrath, just waste one of these killers and see how fast it comes down on you.
Click to expand...


has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.


----------



## Katzndogz

Israel fights terrorists.  The United States gives them welfare.

If we had mexican rockets firing into El Paso,  we would undoubtably create another government program for their benefit.


----------



## P F Tinmore

jillian said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which is exactly right. and exactly the point of my o/p.
> 
> which brings me once again to the question that some of the israel haters seem not to wand to address...
> 
> why the double standard?
Click to expand...


It is not a double standard.

They are two unrelated situations.


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Semantics. They are firing rockets without care or regard to the civilian population. If they stop, Israel will stop. Simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i cannot help but marvel at the ineptitude and lack of skill on the part of both the IDF and HAMAS.
> 
> while HAMAS deliberately targets civilians, or so the claim goes, it kills very few israeli civilians and children' and the IDF, who claims to do everything it can to protect innocent civilians and children, are piling the palestinians up by the score.
> 
> i imagine israelis will stop killing children just like they have stopped building settlements.
> 
> how're them semantics?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> that's not ineptitude. that's hamas putting its weaponry in heavily populated areas.
> 
> israel has no reason not to retaliate and isn't going to not retaliat because hamas doesn't value the lives of it's people.
> 
> how's THAT for semantics?
> 
> once again, very simple... the hamas terrorists should stop sending missiles into israel.
Click to expand...


the fact that the gaza strip is perhaps the most densely populated area in the world doesn't leave them much room to go anywhere.

B'T selem and other human rights organisations has documented several instances of children and civilians being killed and no militant being killed or captured and no IDF troop beoing killed or wounded by return fire.

if the positions were changed, and HAMAS was as well armed as the iDF is now and all the IDF had was some rocket launchers, do you think the IDF would march out into the desert and call HAMAS out.

once again, israel should have invited HAMAS to the negotiations and should not have blockaded the gaza if they didn't want rocket fire.

give then an honest incentive to stop and they will stop. to expect them to stop without even having their grievances addressed is an absurd expectation.

as long as israel has an excuse for killing children, there will be a lot of dead children.

semantics?  i'd call it obfuscation and a lack of honesty. end the blockade and negotuate. it really is that simple.


----------



## sealadaigh

High_Gravity said:


> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.



and that is a bad analogy.

what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.


----------



## High_Gravity

reabhloideach said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
Click to expand...


War.


----------



## Katzndogz

High_Gravity said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> War.
Click to expand...


Of course not.   America is no longer capable of a war.  We'd be crushed in a few days, not because we can't fight a war, that degredation is still a year or so away.   But, because we no longer have an interest in fighting wars.  The US would negotiate Alaska away the way we negotiated away the Alaskan islands.   

Israel had an obligation to protect its citizens.   The US no longer sees protection of Americans as its obligation.  The obligation of the current American government is protection of itself alone.   If obama could gain a personal advantage, giving Alaska to the Russians would be an environmentally friendly act.


----------



## JWBooth

reabhloideach said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
Click to expand...


Canada, Russia? Naval blockade? 
Ignore it, between the two they couldn't blockade Bermuda.


----------



## sealadaigh

High_Gravity said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> War.
Click to expand...


and that is exactly why HAMAS is firing rockets...because they are not, and will not be, defeated.

if israel wants peace, they are either going to have to complete the ethnic cleansing/genocide or they are going to have to sit down and negotiate a ust peace, and a just peace means creating a viable and thriving palestinian state. that can happen.

the trouble though, is the same there as what goes on with these boards. the finger pointing and excusing atrocities must stop and both sides must sit down and bargain based upon interest and not so much upon position.

but watch. you will see.

furthermore, if israel really wants to be a true secular democracy, it has to back off this "jewish state" garbage. that is offensive, and when codified into law, unjust. i mean, i am irish. do you know how offended i feel when someone refers to me as  WAP, or anglo saxon. how would you feel if america was a WASP land for a WASP people and intrtwined that concept into all her laws, as it did at one time and still does to some extent.


----------



## sealadaigh

JWBooth said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Canada, Russia? Naval blockade?
> Ignore it, between the two they couldn't blockade Bermuda.
Click to expand...


nor is mexico going to fire rockets into the USA now, are they, but that really isn't the point, is it?


----------



## sealadaigh

Katzndogz said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> War.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.   America is no longer capable of a war.  We'd be crushed in a few days, not because we can't fight a war, that degredation is still a year or so away.   But, because we no longer have an interest in fighting wars.  The US would negotiate Alaska away the way we negotiated away the Alaskan islands.
> 
> Israel had an obligation to protect its citizens.   The US no longer sees protection of Americans as its obligation.  The obligation of the current American government is protection of itself alone.   If obama could gain a personal advantage, giving Alaska to the Russians would be an environmentally friendly act.
Click to expand...


and i think the best way for israel to protect her citisens is to sit down and hammer out a ust peace.

and this is why i hate analogies...lol.

ok, what do you thing israel would do if her arab neighbours closed their borders completely to israel, shut off her air routes, and threw up a naval blockade on her coast...and all she had were rockets.


----------



## JWBooth

reabhloideach said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada, Russia? Naval blockade?
> Ignore it, between the two they couldn't blockade Bermuda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> nor is mexico going to fire rockets into the USA now, are they, but that really isn't the point, is it?
Click to expand...


Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.


----------



## jillian

reabhloideach said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> and that is a bad analogy.
> 
> what do you think the USA would do if canada alignedd with russia and their combined navies imposed a siege/blockade of alaska.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada, Russia? Naval blockade?
> Ignore it, between the two they couldn't blockade Bermuda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> nor is mexico going to fire rockets into the USA now, are they, but that really isn't the point, is it?
Click to expand...


stop twisting in the wind.


----------



## jillian

JWBooth said:


> Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.



there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy. 

every country has the right to protect itself
many countries solidified their borders after war.
it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.

someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic... 

which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.

there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?

and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.
> 
> every country has the right to protect itself
> many countries solidified their borders after war.
> it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.
> 
> someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...
> 
> which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.
> 
> there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?
> 
> and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?
Click to expand...





Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which is exactly right. and exactly the point of my o/p.
> 
> which brings me once again to the question that some of the israel haters seem not to wand to address...
> 
> why the double standard?
Click to expand...


Because the other side is thinking the same thing, that the opponents are getting away with murder and injustice, because they have more political favor.

Jillian all wars escalate because of mutual distust and blame projected on both sides.

Regardless who is right or wrong, who threw the first punch or the first bomb, and who invaded whom and took whose land away,
both sides would have to focus on peace and who can enforce peaceful agreements.

I hope to see greater unity come forward between the Jewish Christian and Muslim leaders and communities who want PEACE, those are the people we are not hearing from in all this.

Jillian since you are a mother, imagine if two of your kids are fighting, both claiming the  other is getting special favors and getting away with more garbage. And they are fighting to the point they are endangering each other, regardless who is at fault or who started it all.

Sure, you can end the argument and fighting by taking one side and sending the other kid to a foster home to go live someplace else. But you lose the relationship and it doesn't solve the real problem.

It may be more trouble to work things out with both kids under the same roof, but by resolving the grievances where both kids feel their issues are being accounted for, then that is the basis for sustainable peace and restored relations, which is the ideal.

You might separate and ground BOTH kids from the playroom, until they agree to stop fighting over the toys, but that is just temporary and will not solve the problem without the rest of the work required to resolve the real issues and grievances they both have.

Jillian the people on both sides are human beings, and are going to fight for liberty or death if they feel they have no other choice; the war will not be ended by putting one side on the defensive or the other. The peacemakers on all sides would have to be supported, NOT just taking one side over the other, and certainly not support the warmongers on EITHER side.

This is not easy or else it would have been done by now. But there are strong leaders able to make peace, if we placed authority there and quit rewarding abuse of force and bullying.
We need to support the TRUE leadership on both sides, and they don't want war!


----------



## emilynghiem

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.
> 
> every country has the right to protect itself
> many countries solidified their borders after war.
> it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.
> 
> someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...
> 
> which is WHY is there a double stiltndard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.
> 
> there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?
> 
> and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.
Click to expand...


Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.

There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.

Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.

If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?


----------



## jillian

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.
> 
> every country has the right to protect itself
> many countries solidified their borders after war.
> it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.
> 
> someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...
> 
> which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.
> 
> there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?
> 
> and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.
Click to expand...


CNN was doing a terrible job for a while. they've had some good reports, too, though.

but ask yourself where time/warner's business interests are.

and how much of time/warner's stock is owned by the saudi royal family?


----------



## jillian

emilynghiem said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.
> 
> every country has the right to protect itself
> many countries solidified their borders after war.
> it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.
> 
> someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...
> 
> which is WHY is there a double stiltndard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.
> 
> there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?
> 
> and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.
> 
> There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.
> 
> Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.
> 
> If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?
Click to expand...


while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.

ask yourself... 

if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?

now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.

answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.
> 
> every country has the right to protect itself
> many countries solidified their borders after war.
> it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.
> 
> someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...
> 
> which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.
> 
> there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?
> 
> and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?
Click to expand...


your right, the analoy isn't "quirky". it is flat out bad and molded to fit your argument.

it begins with mexico firing rockets at the USA for no reason at all and the USA retaliating with all her might.

a more accutate analogy would be if a bunch of rogue texans, with the approval of the federal governmennt, invaded northern mexico, stole their land, bult a wall, and isolated the northern mexicans from their families and friendss in and fellow contrymen in the south, splitting the country in two. 

then the USA would orchestrate a division between the mexicans after the death of a strong leader (arafat)...and then, realising the weakness of arafat's replacement(abbas) gaol the only strong leader (marwan barghouti) who could unify the factions so that they might be able to negotiate effectively.

and such unconscionable acts had been occuring for decades until all hope of a mevican nation vanished and their land was sliced and diced and pulled apart more than a thanksgiving turkey on the saturday after thanksgiving football party.

and now, we return you to your regularly scheduled  justification for the slaughter of palestiniaan women and children.

why don't you tell me , jillian, what israel wants instead of constantly telling us what they don't want, which is rockets, because as few as five years ago they said they didn't want to build settlements in the west bank. let's clear the air. do you think judea and samaria should be part of ersatz israel, because i tell you, if i am a syrian or jordanian or lebanese or iraqi or egyptian, or etc. i would be gettin' mighty nervous about what israel is doing. what is your plan for the palestinians to make them all neat and clean and civilised?

(and HG. are you watching.)


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.
> 
> There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.
> 
> Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.
> 
> If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.
> 
> ask yourself...
> 
> if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?
> 
> now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.
> 
> answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
> israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.
Click to expand...



Correct, now ask yourself this? Will the liberal press around the globe ever give Israel a fair shake? No, the liberal press around the globe will give Israel the same treatment they give to Republicans.


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Canada, Russia? Naval blockade?
> Ignore it, between the two they couldn't blockade Bermuda.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nor is mexico going to fire rockets into the USA now, are they, but that really isn't the point, is it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> stop twisting in the wind.
Click to expand...


stop tryng to lynch me with a frayed rope.

(ah...lol...now that was a good analogy).


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.
> 
> There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.
> 
> Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.
> 
> If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.
> 
> ask yourself...
> 
> if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?
> 
> now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.
> 
> answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
> israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.
Click to expand...


you do have your ways with bizarre analogies and hypotheticals, don't you.

if israel unilaterally stopped firing on israel...they would still blockade and close the borders and continue settlement building in the west bank.

now, if you want to talk about israel dumping arm and HAMAS dumping arms we can talk.

also, if you are dialing an 800 umber psychic hotline for your predictions, tell dionne that seal gives her a shout out...and that yes, i do know the way to san jose, but i ain't got an israeli driving. lord knows they couldn't follow a road map if G.W. bush autographed it for them. they'd propbably do something goofy like get lost in the desert for forty years.

i thought it was a nice thought by emilynghiem and i am with her. i think do gooding in the from of honest negotiations can begin to solve it. if you do not think so, then you really have no reason or right to be here complaining about rockets. nothing can be done...and as i have said, if that must be the case, then i am all for distributing scuba gear to the israelis.


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.
> 
> ask yourself...
> 
> if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?
> 
> now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.
> 
> answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
> israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.



I said peace needed to be enforced on BOTH sides.
For example, restricting residency or citizenship to just those people or groups who agree to get along.

If people cannot make peace, and live by civil laws, they certainly DON'T need to have access to weapons. Put people in charge on both sides that have interest and experience in peacemaking, and reward them with authority, not the warmongers on EITHER side.

Is that more clear?

And Jillian, if that is a pipedream, then so is "equal justice under law" (on our Supreme Court building) or "equal protection of the laws" in our Fourteenth Amendment.
We either need to start living up to and enforcing our standards, or remove these from the books if we have no intention of fulfilling them! What side are you on, equal justice or unequal injustice? Equal justice means everyone has to agree to live by the same laws, if they are going to live together, so that means Palestinians, Muslims, Jews Christians, Zionists.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.


----------



## emilynghiem

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.



Good point, DTMB, but only the tip of the iceberg.
There is just as much pro- as anti-Islamic sentiment and bias promoted in the media.
So Jillian is partially right about that as well.

Either way, even if you are both right in your given contexts where bias is clear,
taking sides is NOT helping the peacemaking process and is costing all people affected.

Since Muslims are supposed to follow the Jewish Torah and the Christian Scriptures equally as the Quran (and you can see online many websites and conferences for Muslim-Christian interfaith dialogue, relations and peace and justice coalitions); and since there is similar work reconciling Jewish with Christians (and even a denomination for both combined),
it makes sense to me that Christianity should serve as a bridge between warring factions that aren't following their own laws.

Where is the attention and credit in the media for groups that don't demonize one for the other, but bring them together in peace and working coalitions? Why aren't we seeing that?
Why are we only seeing Zionists vs. Jihadists or Palestinians and Jews "against each other."

Clearly the media is biased toward pitting one side against the other.
Does it really matter if they are pro- or anti- this group or that?
Same with the prochoice and prolife division by labels to incite political conflict and competition for ratings and election hype. As long as the media doesn't show collaborative solutions, going on behind the scenes, then this is biased toward proliferating conflict.


----------



## jillian

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
Click to expand...


You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?


----------



## sealadaigh

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
Click to expand...


i don't think that is true at all. i would say the opposite, in fact.


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?
Click to expand...


Have you ever listened to Jeramiah Wright and Louis Farrakan? Are you kidding me?


----------



## WillowTree

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTazEywdeg]99% Anti-Semitism at DC&#39;s Emancipation Day - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## WillowTree

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrP_pLDDCuo&feature=related]Man Goes Off On Israel @ OWS Zucotti Sq. - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## WillowTree

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy_cUpxT884&feature=related]CNN Helen Thomas &#39;Jews don&#39;t have the right to take other people&#39;s land&#39; - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## jillian

reabhloideach said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i don't think that is true at all. i would say the opposite, in fact.
Click to expand...


That's funny


----------



## Jroc

jillian said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?
Click to expand...


How about we be straight?..Democrats generally are much less supportive of Israel we go by what the people say not the politicians, you're in denial look around this board open your eyes.. 




> *Poll: 78% of Republicans Support Israel versus 53% of Democrats*
> 
> The Republican Jewish Coalition (RJC) on Friday cited results from a recent Gallup poll to suggest that theres a growing Israel Gap between Republicans and Democrats. The poll broke down support for Israel by political affiliation, and revealed that *Republican support for Israel is 25 percentage points higher than Democratic support, while overall Democratic support for Israel hovers just above 50 percent*.




http://www.jewishpress.com/news/us-...ort-israel-versus-53-of-democrats/2012/03/18/


----------



## Jroc

jillian said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?
Click to expand...




Mainstream Democrats...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2sWTwbzAcw]The DNC&#39;s Controversial Jerusalem Capital Vote - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## WillowTree

Jroc said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mainstream Democrats...
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2sWTwbzAcw]The DNC's Controversial Jerusalem Capital Vote - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...


Please note Republicans never have to take votes like that. How embarassing for Democrats. Jillian, you are in the wrong party.


----------



## Jroc

WillowTree said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mainstream Democrats...
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2sWTwbzAcw]The DNC's Controversial Jerusalem Capital Vote - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please note Republicans never have to take votes like that. How embarassing for Democrats. Jillian, you are in the wrong party.
Click to expand...






> *The Democratic Party platform on Palestinian Terrorism against Israel*
> 
> 
> And even as the President and the Democratic Party continue to encourage all parties to be resolute in the pursuit of peace, we will insist that any Palestinian partner must recognize Israel&#8217;s right to exist, reject violence, and adhere to existing agreements.
> 
> *there is no mention of Hamas or an explicit condemnation of terrorism against Israel.*







> *The Republican Party platform on Palestinian Terrorism against Israel*
> 
> 
> the Palestinian people must support leaders who reject terror, embrace the institutions and ethos of democracy, and respect the rule of law&#8230; Israel should not be expected to negotiate with entities pledged to her destruction
> 
> &#8230;radical elements like Hamas and Hezbollah must be isolated because they do not meet the standards of peace and diplomacy of the international community.



Democratic vs Republican Platforms on Israel


----------



## P F Tinmore

MHunterB said:


> *Article 4
> 1.Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained.
> 2.The principles of Islamic Sharia shall be a principal source of legislation.
> 3.Arabic shall be the official language.*
> 
> 
> There is no way to maintain 'equal' rights while having a state religion, so many critics of Israel state.
> How does one maintain a democracy with a religion-specific legal basis?
> 
> 
> *Article 7
> 
> Palestinian citizenship shall be regulated by law.*
> 
> There were about 950,000 people across the Arab lands in the ME who found out that their citizenship and EVERYTHING they owned - including their land - could be legislated out from under them.  They were redefined 'democratically' by legislative means as "hostile aliens" and ejected from their countries.  They were ethnic Arabs, yes.



Their constitution does indeed say that the principles of Islamic Sharia shall be a principal source of legislation, but what does that mean? Let's look at the facts on the ground.

The mayor of Bethlehem is a Christian. The mayor of Ramallah is a Christian woman. Some women are judges. One of Palestine's most respected politician, Hanan Ashrawi, was a former cabinet minister and is now a member of parliament. She is a Christian woman. There is a Christian woman in the cabinet. A Christian was elected to parliament in Gaza running in the Change and Reform (Hamas) Party. Christians and women own land, homes, and businesses. Women drive around in their cars with their hair in the breeze...even in Gaza.

And then there is:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NizgQJg5J8U]Burning Wheels: Palestinian women racing towards freedom - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## editec

I think there's a fairly simple explanation for why most Americans are more likely to support the Israeli than the Palestinians.

Given no choice, which country do you think most Americans would rather live in: Israel or any one of the Arab moslem nations?

Most Americans know Jews fairly well. They've been our neighbors for our entire lives.

Jews therefore seem mostly harmless to us.

Moslems on the other hand are alien to us and of course that flapup on 9-11 didn't help the Moslem cause, either.


Perhaps if most Americans had had the same kinds of experience they already have with their Jewish students, doctors, team mates, accountants, friends, teachers, lawyers, judges and bosses, and often even wives or husbands, they might feel the same way about Palestinians as they feel about Jews.

If the Moslems want to have the same kind of relationship with Americans that Jews have, they're going to have become our neighbors and at the same time NOT ram their religious and social values down our throats.

But that kind of religious and social tolerance seems to be somewhat harder for Moslems to pill off than it does for most Jews.


----------



## P F Tinmore

editec said:


> I think there's a fairly simple explanation for why most Americans are more likely to support the Israeli than the Palestinians.
> 
> Given no choice, which country do you think most Americans would rather live in: Israel or any one of the Arab moslem nations?
> 
> Most Americans know Jews fairly well. They've been our neighbors for our entire lives.
> 
> Jews therefore seem mostly harmless to us.
> 
> Moslems on the other hand are alien to us and of course that flapup on 9-11 didn't help the Moslem cause, either.
> 
> 
> Perhaps if most Americans had had the same kinds of experience they already have with their Jewish students, doctors, team mates, accountants, friends, teachers, lawyers, judges and bosses, and often even wives or husbands, they might feel the same way about Palestinians as they feel about Jews.
> 
> If the Moslems want to have the same kind of relationship with Americans that Jews have, they're going to have become our neighbors and at the same time NOT ram their religious and social values down our throats.
> 
> But that kind of religious and social tolerance seems to be somewhat harder for Moslems to pill off than it does for most Jews.



The Moslems do regularly shoot themselves in the foot.


----------



## theHawk

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



Of course any country has the right to retaliate to such attacks.

What people are saying otherwise, other than Islamists and liberals?


----------



## jillian

Jroc said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mainstream Democrats...
> 
> The DNC's Controversial Jerusalem Capital Vote - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please note Republicans never have to take votes like that. How embarassing for Democrats. Jillian, you are in the wrong party.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Democratic Party platform on Palestinian Terrorism against Israel*
> 
> 
> And even as the President and the Democratic Party continue to encourage all parties to be resolute in the pursuit of peace, we will insist that any Palestinian partner must recognize Israel&#8217;s right to exist, reject violence, and adhere to existing agreements.
> 
> *there is no mention of Hamas or an explicit condemnation of terrorism against Israel.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Republican Party platform on Palestinian Terrorism against Israel*
> 
> 
> the Palestinian people must support leaders who reject terror, embrace the institutions and ethos of democracy, and respect the rule of law&#8230; Israel should not be expected to negotiate with entities pledged to her destruction
> 
> &#8230;radical elements like Hamas and Hezbollah must be isolated because they do not meet the standards of peace and diplomacy of the international community.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Democratic vs Republican Platforms on Israel
Click to expand...


not even a little. and your neocon link isn't even a little accurate.

realistic and normal people want to see peace in the region. they do not bleieve in bomb bomb bomb iran.

and really, why would you expect any educated woman to vote GOP unless she was also part of the radical religious right?

maybe if you rethink that and the whole neocon agenda. 

until then, not really.

and for the record, just so you can maybe show a bit of integrity on this issue:

no democratic president ever made israel take SCUD missiles to keep an arab coalition together.
no democratic president ever made israel stop fighting against terrorists when they were winning.... making them look beatable for the first time ever.

your two bush presidents did that.

and no democratic president ever destabilized the region, thus allowing iran to be ascendant.

bush II did that.

so perhaps if you get rid of absurd tough-talking bomb bomb bomb rhetoric, you'll find that your guys in the GOP white houses haven't done anything to help israel.


----------



## jillian

theHawk said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course any country has the right to retaliate to such attacks.
> 
> What people are saying otherwise, other than Islamists and liberals?
Click to expand...


liberals say that? really? 

you sure about that?


----------



## Jroc

jillian said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please note Republicans never have to take votes like that. How embarassing for Democrats. Jillian, you are in the wrong party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Republican Party platform on Palestinian Terrorism against Israel*
> 
> 
> the Palestinian people must support leaders who reject terror, embrace the institutions and ethos of democracy, and respect the rule of law&#8230; Israel should not be expected to negotiate with entities pledged to her destruction
> 
> &#8230;radical elements like Hamas and Hezbollah must be isolated because they do not meet the standards of peace and diplomacy of the international community.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Democratic vs Republican Platforms on Israel
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> not even a little. and your neocon link isn't even a little accurate.
> 
> realistic and normal people want to see peace in the region. they do not bleieve in bomb bomb bomb iran.
> 
> and really, why would you expect any educated woman to vote GOP unless she was also part of the radical religious right?
> 
> maybe if you rethink that and the whole neocon agenda.
> 
> until then, not really.
> 
> and for the record, just so you can maybe show a bit of integrity on this issue:
> 
> no democratic president ever made israel take SCUD missiles to keep an arab coalition together.
> no democratic president ever made israel stop fighting against terrorists when they were winning.... making them look beatable for the first time ever.
> 
> your two bush presidents did that.
> 
> and no democratic president ever destabilized the region, thus allowing iran to be ascendant.
> 
> bush II did that.
> 
> so perhaps if you get rid of absurd tough-talking bomb bomb bomb rhetoric, you'll find that your guys in the GOP white houses haven't done anything to help israel.
Click to expand...


One needs only to look at who the Israeli's prefer, they approve of Republicans by a wide margin over democrats that says it all. They preferred Bush over Obama your little statements mean nothing in the face of that reality...In other words you don&#8217;t know what you're talking about.


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i don't think that is true at all. i would say the opposite, in fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's funny
Click to expand...



well, john mearscheimer, stephen walt, and alison weir, among others, agree with me. i suppose you think they are funny too? i have watched the news for bias for years. this is really the first time our national media has actually seemed even close to being fair. usually they are pro-israel to the max.

that is indicative of a lot of americans becoming more pro-peace and their awareness of the situation. sooner or lateer, israel will have to come to the table and negotiate a JUST peace or they will lose. they are beginning to lose already.

you, of course, have a right to your own opinion, but you do not have a right to your own facts.


----------



## jillian

Jroc said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democratic vs Republican Platforms on Israel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not even a little. and your neocon link isn't even a little accurate.
> 
> realistic and normal people want to see peace in the region. they do not bleieve in bomb bomb bomb iran.
> 
> and really, why would you expect any educated woman to vote GOP unless she was also part of the radical religious right?
> 
> maybe if you rethink that and the whole neocon agenda.
> 
> until then, not really.
> 
> and for the record, just so you can maybe show a bit of integrity on this issue:
> 
> no democratic president ever made israel take SCUD missiles to keep an arab coalition together.
> no democratic president ever made israel stop fighting against terrorists when they were winning.... making them look beatable for the first time ever.
> 
> your two bush presidents did that.
> 
> and no democratic president ever destabilized the region, thus allowing iran to be ascendant.
> 
> bush II did that.
> 
> so perhaps if you get rid of absurd tough-talking bomb bomb bomb rhetoric, you'll find that your guys in the GOP white houses haven't done anything to help israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One needs only to look at who the Israeli's prefer, they approve of Republicans by a wide margin over democrats that says it all. They preferred Bush over Obama your little statements mean nothing in the face of that reality...In other words you don&#8217;t know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...


it's not who "israeli's" prefer. israelis aren't homogeneous either. there are rightwing israelis and leftwing israelis and moderate israelis.

most people aren't extremists in either direction.

and if people like you actually thought about things, you'd realize that the necons haven't done anything to help israel... but they talk nasty, so other neocons fall for it.


----------



## Jroc

jillian said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> not even a little. and your neocon link isn't even a little accurate.
> 
> realistic and normal people want to see peace in the region. they do not bleieve in bomb bomb bomb iran.
> 
> and really, why would you expect any educated woman to vote GOP unless she was also part of the radical religious right?
> 
> maybe if you rethink that and the whole neocon agenda.
> 
> until then, not really.
> 
> and for the record, just so you can maybe show a bit of integrity on this issue:
> 
> no democratic president ever made israel take SCUD missiles to keep an arab coalition together.
> no democratic president ever made israel stop fighting against terrorists when they were winning.... making them look beatable for the first time ever.
> 
> your two bush presidents did that.
> 
> and no democratic president ever destabilized the region, thus allowing iran to be ascendant.
> 
> bush II did that.
> 
> so perhaps if you get rid of absurd tough-talking bomb bomb bomb rhetoric, you'll find that your guys in the GOP white houses haven't done anything to help israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One needs only to look at who the Israeli's prefer, they approve of Republicans by a wide margin over democrats that says it all. They preferred Bush over Obama your little statements mean nothing in the face of that reality...In other words you dont know what you're talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it's not who "israeli's" prefer. israelis aren't homogeneous either. there are rightwing israelis and leftwing israelis and moderate israelis.
> 
> most people aren't extremists in either direction.
> 
> and if people like you actually thought about things, you'd realize that the necons haven't done anything to help israel... but they talk nasty, so other neocons fall for it.
Click to expand...


Typical liberal response, liberals think they know whats best for people and they try to force their view on others through ever powerful government. Israel knows better than you do who supports them. Your party is forced to support Israel for political reasons, while Republicans support Israel because it is the right thing to do. Israel is surrounded thanks to Obama. The muslim brotherhood is spreading, Iran's influence is strengthening, Obama should have supported the uprising in Iran when he had the chance. Turkey is also Islamizing. Left wing Israeli and right wing Israeli's support Republicans it's only the ultra-left nutjobs who support democrats and Obama.


----------



## MHunterB

'seal':  "well, john mearscheimer, stephen walt, and alison weir, among others, agree with me. i suppose you think they are funny too? i have watched the news for bias for years. this is really the first time our national media has actually seemed even close to being fair. usually they are pro-israel to the max.

that is indicative of a lot of americans becoming more pro-peace and their awareness of the situation. sooner or lateer, israel will have to come to the table and negotiate a JUST peace or they will lose. they are beginning to lose already."


Not the poster you addressed but:   I don't have any respec  whatsoever for the three individuals you've cited - and yes, I've read their work,which is WHY I don't have any respect for their scholarship and hence their views.

Any time one makes any change, there are going to be 'gains' and 'losses'.  The question for the US is 'What are the advanteges and disadvantages, and would the US truly be better off?'

Rather than discussing the real or fancied merits or defects of Israel or any other nation-state - this discussion *should* be about  'What's in it for the US?/What's it going to cost us?

I do NOT agree that the US is distrusted or disliked in the Muslim or Arab world because we have supported Israel:   I think that is just the latest excuse. Qutb certainly didn't find Americans shocking and revolting because of their support for Israel - he was in the Midwest in the 50's.   

I think there really IS something to the clash of civilizations' idea.  ALTHOUGH I am not presuming that 'all Muslims are......', except for 'human beings'.   I don't see where anyone has to be 'evil' or 'decadent' or 'corrupted' for two cultures to not find one another's ways appealing.   Are the Amish evil?


----------



## Jroc

Libs favorite station...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-AKy56qxBc]Reporter Blames US For Not Recognizing Hamas And Not &#39;Reigning In&#39; Israel - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## jillian

and? again. this isn't a is/pal section trash thread.

we already know there is a double standard. the posted videos do nothing to dispel that hypothesis.  the question is WHY? 

so the repeated efforts at trying to prove the premise or derail the subject doesn't really add much.


----------



## P F Tinmore

jillian said:


> and? again. this isn't a is/pal section trash thread.
> 
> we already know there is a double standard. the posted videos do nothing to dispel that hypothesis.  the question is WHY?
> 
> so the repeated efforts at trying to prove the premise or derail the subject doesn't really add much.



Many have wondered about the double standard.

It seems that many countries (particularly the US) never call Israel out for its consistent violations of international law.

The US says that the settlements are illegal but it never mentions that anyone should be in jail for those violations.


----------



## oldfart

Something has been bugging me about this hypothetical for days and I finally realized that it is not a hypothetical.  During the Mexican Revolution there were  "punitive expeditions" when one group or another crossed the Mexican-American border.  The biggest one was in 1916--7 to chase down Pancho Villa who had raided into the United States.  After a great effort and millions of dollars, they never did catch him.  For a good read and a great cartoon of Uncle Sam jumping a barbed wire fence to chase Pancho check out 

Pancho Villa Expedition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## jillian

P F Tinmore said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> and? again. this isn't a is/pal section trash thread.
> 
> we already know there is a double standard. the posted videos do nothing to dispel that hypothesis.  the question is WHY?
> 
> so the repeated efforts at trying to prove the premise or derail the subject doesn't really add much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many have wondered about the double standard.
> 
> It seems that many countries (particularly the US) never call Israel out for its consistent violations of international law.
> 
> The US says that the settlements are illegal but it never mentions that anyone should be in jail for those violations.
Click to expand...


disingenuous as usual, without even a clue as to history.

thanks!


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> 'seal':  "well, john mearscheimer, stephen walt, and alison weir, among others, agree with me. i suppose you think they are funny too? i have watched the news for bias for years. this is really the first time our national media has actually seemed even close to being fair. usually they are pro-israel to the max.
> 
> that is indicative of a lot of americans becoming more pro-peace and their awareness of the situation. sooner or lateer, israel will have to come to the table and negotiate a JUST peace or they will lose. they are beginning to lose already."
> 
> 
> Not the poster you addressed but:   I don't have any respec  whatsoever for the three individuals you've cited - and yes, I've read their work,which is WHY I don't have any respect for their scholarship and hence their views.
> 
> Any time one makes any change, there are going to be 'gains' and 'losses'.  The question for the US is 'What are the advanteges and disadvantages, and would the US truly be better off?'
> 
> Rather than discussing the real or fancied merits or defects of Israel or any other nation-state - this discussion *should* be about  'What's in it for the US?/What's it going to cost us?
> 
> I do NOT agree that the US is distrusted or disliked in the Muslim or Arab world because we have supported Israel:   I think that is just the latest excuse. Qutb certainly didn't find Americans shocking and revolting because of their support for Israel - he was in the Midwest in the 50's.
> 
> I think there really IS something to the clash of civilizations' idea.  ALTHOUGH I am not presuming that 'all Muslims are......', except for 'human beings'.   I don't see where anyone has to be 'evil' or 'decadent' or 'corrupted' for two cultures to not find one another's ways appealing.   Are the Amish evil?



my post was a response to jillian, jroc's, and some others ridiculous assertion that the media was biased in favour of the palestinians.

i disagreed and posted that a lot of people disagreed with thaat assertion also, including john mearscheimer, stephen waly, and alison weir.

i wouldn't expect you to respect them, despite their credentials, and particularly that of the two well respected scholars and educators, mearscheimer and walt. they speak out against israel.

do not try to paint this as a "war between the civilisations". that is just an effort to elevate your (our) values over theirs. this is business and history as usual, a war between the "haves" and the "have nots", a war between the "takers" and those "taken from", a war between the "powerul" and the "weak". your "war between the civilisations reminds me of the bigotry of manifest destiny, colonial enterprise, imperialistic conquest, and while that worked well in the past, it has no place in today's world.

what's in what for the U.S.A,? i am not sure what you are talking about. i know after WWII we were the most respected and powerful nation in the world. now we are the most feared and powerful nation in the world. i want the respect back, the respect that comes from being a gentle, moral, and caring nation. not the scorn from becoming the "ugly american."

i have no idea why you bring Qutb into the picture, un less it is some obscure display of your esoteric knowledge. i have no idea what some little known, egytian, islamist scholar has to do with press bias.

where did i say that our dislike among the arab/muslim world is the palestinian issue. that is, however, a big part of it. we have become the world's bully. we used to be the world's protector.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

jillian said:


> the question is WHY?



why? Because Israel stole their land in war. It's really very simple. Most of the world does not approve. In Europe the Israeli support is from Germany only, and for obvious reasons. Europe is so wonderful and progressive to our liberals-right??


----------



## jillian

Jroc said:


> Libs favorite station...
> 
> Reporter Blames US For Not Recognizing Hamas And Not 'Reigning In' Israel - YouTube



Again, is there some reason the topic seems beyond you?


----------



## jillian

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> the question is WHY?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why? Because Israel stole their land in war. It's really very simple. Most of the world does not approve. In Europe the Israeli support is from Germany only, and for obvious reasons. Europe is so wonderful and progressive to our liberals-right??
Click to expand...


Historically incorrect and you've proven the fact that there is a double standard.


----------



## Billo_Really

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.


If the US military annexed parts of Mexico, what do you think the Mexican governments response would be?


----------



## Katzndogz

If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up.  Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.


----------



## Katzndogz

We have a great many hispanic terrorist groups in this country already.   We just don't call them hamas and hezbollah, we call them MS-13 and Latin Kings instead.


----------



## MikeK

jillian said:


> If Mexico fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?



But some would wonder about Mexico's motive for rocketing an adversary they know is capable of decimating its population.  For Mexico to do that would be an overt act of sheer desperation, the behavior of a cornered and angry animal.  

Some would wonder why.  And I believe more are wondering today than did yesterday.


----------



## MikeK

Katzndogz said:


> If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up.  Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.


This is the kind of thoughtlessly oppressive attitude that gives rise to suicidal terrorism.


----------



## MikeK

reabhloideach said:


> [...]
> 
> what's in what for the U.S.A,? i am not sure what you are talking about. i know after WWII we were the most respected and powerful nation in the world. now we are the most feared and powerful nation in the world. i want the respect back, the respect that comes from being a gentle, moral, and caring nation. not the scorn from becoming the "ugly american."
> 
> [...]


Well said!


----------



## Lipush

MikeK said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up.  Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the kind of thoughtlessly oppressive attitude that gives rise to suicidal terrorism.
Click to expand...


Care to explain?


----------



## MikeK

Lipush said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up.  Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the kind of thoughtlessly oppressive attitude that gives rise to suicidal terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Care to explain?
Click to expand...

If an explanation is needed it's quite simple:  When you make someone's life so miserable it's not worth living anymore the fear of death is diminished and is replaced by murderous rage.  

Some years back I met a young Palestinian student while attending a credited lecture at Columbia.  She was living here on a visa and she told us her family had for generations occupied a small date orchard for years on land which was being gradually expropriated by Israel:  One day a car and a jeep pulled up to the house.  There were three Israeli troopers in the jeep.  One of the civilians from the car knocked on the door and told her mother their land belonged to him and they had two weeks to vacate.  

She said there was nothing Semitic about the man.  Rather he was clearly an Ashkenazi Jew, probably a migrant from the U.S., and that such expropriations were very common.  She said if one asks these Israeli settlers how they came to own the land they tell you it was given to them by God.  (A rather novel real estate concept.)  

I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis.  I imagine the same situation happening to me and I can readily understand the kind of boiling rage that drives these suicidal shahids.    

You take away everything someone has to live for, including their self-worth, and you'd better watch out.  Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

MikeK said:


> Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.




are you a psychologist??? Who cares??? What not give us the solution rather than merely take the Palestinian side ????


----------



## Billo_Really

Katzndogz said:


> If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up.  Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.


It doesn't matter who started the war, it is illegal to hold onto land seized in that war.


----------



## emilynghiem

jillian said:


> and? again. this isn't a is/pal section trash thread.
> 
> we already know there is a double standard. the posted videos do nothing to dispel that hypothesis.  the question is WHY?
> 
> so the repeated efforts at trying to prove the premise or derail the subject doesn't really add much.



Dear Jillian: I think we are ALL still trying to figure out "why the double standards"?

1. Is it because the Jewish are the chosen tribe, and so all these trials and tribulations are meant to befall them in the spiritual process of fulfilling that role, and in the end it will lead to justice, but in the meantime we are going to see some wild injustices and attacks that challenge that authority.

2. Similar with why is US govt allowed to get away with wrongs, why is that authority allowed to stand even after abuses and corruption have gone on in history WITHOUT redress?
At some point are we going to see all the injustices and debts resolved?
And in the meantime, it looks like there is no accountability for the nonsense allowed to go on.

The most striking thing about these situations:
no matter WHICH side of the issue you sympathize with, BOTH sides see a double standard.
We just don't agree all who's been allowed to get away with more. But we both see biases in how these are viewed and judged, by people and by the media. 

Jillian, I pray we do recognize the mutual suffering and injustice that is felt, regardless which side we believe is justified or is unjustly held to account while the other is not!

That is where grace is most powerful in saving humanity and bringing peace in the face of injustice and war. Where we feel it is the LEAST deserved, that is where peace is most precious and I pray that all nations come together and receive the gift of peace and freedom from strife and suffering, and realize we are in the struggle together regardless which side.

Love and prayers to you 
and all that concerns you

Yours truly,
Emily


----------



## MHunterB

"I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"

So, what was the doctor's name?


----------



## MHunterB

emilynghiem said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> and? again. this isn't a is/pal section trash thread.
> 
> we already know there is a double standard. the posted videos do nothing to dispel that hypothesis.  the question is WHY?
> 
> so the repeated efforts at trying to prove the premise or derail the subject doesn't really add much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Jillian: I think we are ALL still trying to figure out "why the double standards"?
> 
> 1. Is it because the Jewish are the chosen tribe, and so all these trials and tribulations are meant to befall them in the spiritual process of fulfilling that role, and in the end it will lead to justice, but in the meantime we are going to see some wild injustices and attacks that challenge that authority.
Click to expand...



Is that what you think, Emily?  How many Jews do you know who think that - actual practicing Judaism Jews, not the 'Jesus' ones?  Have you ever had a RL discussion with a Jew on this topic?

Several points about that idea:

A) In all the services I've attended, all the sermons I've listened to, all the scholars I've studied - I have not seen the suggestion that Jews are 'inherently' the least bit better or 'more' than anyone else.  Quite the opposite.

B)  The people who *DO* insist that Jews have such a view of themselves do NOT have sources from within contemporary mainstream Judaism to rely upon (be advised that Diaspora Jews do not give precedence to Israeli scholars for any number of 'Biblical' reasons).   They are 'sourcing' their views either from the NT - which is certainly no witness of the Jewish religion! - or from some website purportng to disclose the "secret" beliefs of Judaism.

C) The websites purporting to give out the 'secret beliefs of Judaism' are invariably conected to some conspiracy source, or to some cult which isn't actually Christian (Shepherds Chapel, anyone?  Christian Identity?) - or to Nazi apologists of some sort.

I doubt very much that there are any 'sources' which do not connect to one of those three - because research into 'anti-Jewish conspiracy "theories"' will lead a person to the ultimate source of all that set of lies. 

So there you have MY 'hypothesis', Emily - and a way to reproduce my experiment and test my 'findings'.


----------



## aSeattleConserv

jillian said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm all for them kicking butt, too.
> 
> but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?
Click to expand...


Liberal HATRED of Judeo-Christian doctrine.


----------



## MHunterB

Emily posted 





> 2. Similar with why is US govt allowed to get away with wrongs, why is that authority allowed to stand even after abuses and corruption have gone on in history WITHOUT redress?
> At some point are we going to see all the injustices and debts resolved?
> And in the meantime, it looks like there is no accountability for the nonsense allowed to go on.



IS the US really 'allowed to get away with wrongs' any more than any other nation?   The 950,000 people stripped of even their citizenship, beggared and cast out fom Arab League nations by AL conspiracy, have never recovered their property or assets - and many nations refuse to even acknowlede that this was done.  It was, BTW, a deliberate copying of the Nazi 'laws' which immediately preceeded the Nazi perpetration of genocide.

We could  also discuss the Armenian genocide, and the attempted genocide against Kurds, Baha'i, Shi'a, the Marsh Arabs, the Ibo, the 'Falasha', people in Darfur and in southern Sudan......

And we could discuss the sex trafficking of women all over the world, the 'bride-burnings' in Pakistan and N. India and Bangla Desh,   the absolute sale of children in those countries to factories and huge 'farms'....so many other injustices which nations allow and seem to be getting away with.


----------



## MHunterB

Emily continued:  





> The most striking thing about these situations:
> no matter WHICH side of the issue you sympathize with, BOTH sides see a double standard.
> We just don't agree all who's been allowed to get away with more. But we both see biases in how these are viewed and judged, by people and by the media........



I think there are MORE than just 2 'sides' in many situations - though if you want to boil it down to someone being 'pro' or 'anti'  you can do so.  I just find doing that seems to force things towards the 'fringes', the extreme views - and those are generally the least efficient and satisfactory.

What Emily labels 'bias' is SOMETIMES nothing more than the inability of even careful humans to be totally and completely IMpartial.  Very few of us know enough about anything beyond our immediate lives to be competent at IMpartial judgement.   Very few of us have had any formal training either in logic or critical thinking - two tools which are indispensible for IMpartial decision making.


----------



## P F Tinmore

MHunterB said:


> "I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"
> 
> So, what was the doctor's name?



Dr. Nasrallah


----------



## Againsheila

MHunterB said:


> "I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"
> 
> So, what was the doctor's name?



You know, I read about that incident and the time and it wasn't murder.  She was standing in front of a bulldozer that couldn't see her.  She should have moved out of the way.  Have you ever been on a bulldozer?  You can't see crap that's right in front of you.  Since her parents sued, and lost, it's pretty clear it wasn't murder.  

Here's a hint, if someone is gonna bulldoze you house, don't stand right in front of them, it's very dangerous.


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> "I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"
> 
> So, what was the doctor's name?



samir nasrallah had a doctorate in pharmacy, a wife, and three children.

what was the bulldozer operators name?


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> Emily continued:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most striking thing about these situations:
> no matter WHICH side of the issue you sympathize with, BOTH sides see a double standard.
> We just don't agree all who's been allowed to get away with more. But we both see biases in how these are viewed and judged, by people and by the media........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there are MORE than just 2 'sides' in many situations - though if you want to boil it down to someone being 'pro' or 'anti'  you can do so.  I just find doing that seems to force things towards the 'fringes', the extreme views - and those are generally the least efficient and satisfactory.
> 
> What Emily labels 'bias' is SOMETIMES nothing more than the inability of even careful humans to be totally and completely IMpartial.  Very few of us know enough about anything beyond our immediate lives to be competent at IMpartial judgement.   Very few of us have had any formal training either in logic or critical thinking - two tools which are indispensible for IMpartial decision making.
Click to expand...


some people have an ability to be impartial, and particularly those who realise that a lack of impartiality does little to achieve solution.

sometime too, impartiality and truth dictates that there may not be a middle ground between the opposing sides, a point where the wrongs balance. a good example would be apartheid south africa.

i think emily comes very close to being impartial. at least she tries.


----------



## sealadaigh

Againsheila said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"
> 
> So, what was the doctor's name?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I read about that incident and the time and it wasn't murder.  She was standing in front of a bulldozer that couldn't see her.  She should have moved out of the way.  Have you ever been on a bulldozer?  You can't see crap that's right in front of you.  Since her parents sued, and lost, it's pretty clear it wasn't murder.
> 
> Here's a hint, if someone is gonna bulldoze you house, don't stand right in front of them, it's very dangerous.
Click to expand...


well, i agree a little and i disagree a little.

i like american justice and i think there is enough reasonable doubt to say the troopie did not deliberately run over rachel corrie. there was however an extraordinary amount of negligence with a complete disregard for her life...a negligence beyound human comprehension. the vision in those things is extraordinarily limited aand they require, and usually have, a spotter, or guide. she could have been removed from the viccinity, even arrested. there was absolutely no need for her to die.

here is a hint...don't destroy palestinian homes.


----------



## sealadaigh

P F Tinmore said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"
> 
> So, what was the doctor's name?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Nasrallah
Click to expand...


darn it, you beat me to it. lol.

thanks P F.


----------



## P F Tinmore

reabhloideach said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Emily continued:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most striking thing about these situations:
> no matter WHICH side of the issue you sympathize with, BOTH sides see a double standard.
> We just don't agree all who's been allowed to get away with more. But we both see biases in how these are viewed and judged, by people and by the media........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there are MORE than just 2 'sides' in many situations - though if you want to boil it down to someone being 'pro' or 'anti'  you can do so.  I just find doing that seems to force things towards the 'fringes', the extreme views - and those are generally the least efficient and satisfactory.
> 
> What Emily labels 'bias' is SOMETIMES nothing more than the inability of even careful humans to be totally and completely IMpartial.  Very few of us know enough about anything beyond our immediate lives to be competent at IMpartial judgement.   Very few of us have had any formal training either in logic or critical thinking - two tools which are indispensible for IMpartial decision making.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> some people have an ability to be impartial, and particularly those who realise that a lack of impartiality does little to achieve solution.
> 
> sometime too, impartiality and truth dictates that there may not be a middle ground between the opposing sides, a point where the wrongs balance. a good example would be apartheid south africa.
> 
> i think emily comes very close to being impartial. at least she tries.
Click to expand...


"Really, if someone steals your car, what is there to negotiate? What would be a middle ground?


----------



## MHunterB

"Really, if someone steals your car, what is there to negotiate? What would be a middle ground? "

I find it quite disingenuous to suggest that the ME situation is anywhere near that simple.


----------



## P F Tinmore

MHunterB said:


> "Really, if someone steals your car, what is there to negotiate? What would be a middle ground? "
> 
> I find it quite disingenuous to suggest that the ME situation is anywhere near that simple.



But it is. Just enforce international law. Problem solved.


----------



## Aristotle

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



First off this is a bad argument.

For one, Mexico and US are allies.

Two, our missile silos in Colorado and California would knock it down.



Three, Israel is a racist state. Sorry, I have Arab-Israeli friends that tell me otherwise.

Four, only thing about Israel I like is "Hatvikah" by John Williams.


----------



## MikeK

Againsheila said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"
> 
> So, what was the doctor's name?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I read about that incident and the time and it wasn't murder.  She was standing in front of a bulldozer that couldn't see her.  She should have moved out of the way.  Have you ever been on a bulldozer?  You can't see crap that's right in front of you.  Since her parents sued, and lost, it's pretty clear it wasn't murder.
> 
> Here's a hint, if someone is gonna bulldoze you house, don't stand right in front of them, it's very dangerous.
Click to expand...

My MOS in the Marine Corps was 1345, Engineer, Heavy Equipment Operator, Earth-moving Tractor (bulldozer).  So the answer to your question is, yes.  I have been on bulldozers, mainly an International Harvester TD18-A (armored), for four years (1956 - 1960).

So you are out of turn because you simply have no idea what you're talking about.  There is no way the operator of that dozer could not have seen the girl in front of his blade.  There is no question (in my expert opinion) that his action was deliberate.  He chose to crush her, which is cold-blooded murder.  If you ask any experienced bulldozer operator (American, not Israeli) you will get the same answer.  

Rachel Corrie could have been forcibly removed from that site.  The most that should have happened to her was a boot in the ass and deportation.  She was an American citizen, a young girl, and she was murdered.  And you approve of it -- which reveals your loyalties.


----------



## MikeK

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> are you a psychologist??? Who cares??? What not give us the solution rather than merely take the Palestinian side ????
Click to expand...

The most intimidating thing about the 9/11 attack was not the actual devastation but the fact that nineteen healthy young men would so readily sacrifice their own lives to strike at us.  This kind of suicidal vengeance is well beyond the ability of the average American mind to comprehend, mainly because we are not an oppressed people.  

In spite of having advanced military capabilities, neither the Third Reich nor the Japanese Empire was able to effect a significant assault on our homeland.  But those nineteen young Islamic shahids revealed a weapon which the Western mind simply isn't ready to deal with -- the willingness to die.  If just nineteen men can inflict that level of damage upon us, imagine what nineteen thousand could do.  

We don't need enemies like that.


----------



## Billo_Really

MikeK said:


> The most intimidating thing about the 9/11 attack was not the actual devastation but the fact that nineteen healthy young men would so readily sacrifice their own lives to strike at us.  This kind of suicidal vengeance is well beyond the ability of the average American mind to comprehend, mainly because we are not an oppressed people.
> 
> In spite of having advanced military capabilities, neither the Third Reich nor the Japanese Empire was able to effect a significant assault on our homeland.  But those nineteen young Islamic shahids revealed a weapon which the Western mind simply isn't ready to deal with -- the willingness to die.  If just nineteen men can inflict that level of damage upon us, imagine what nineteen thousand could do.
> 
> We don't need enemies like that.


If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.


----------



## MikeK

loinboy said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most intimidating thing about the 9/11 attack was not the actual devastation but the fact that nineteen healthy young men would so readily sacrifice their own lives to strike at us.  This kind of suicidal vengeance is well beyond the ability of the average American mind to comprehend, mainly because we are not an oppressed people.
> 
> In spite of having advanced military capabilities, neither the Third Reich nor the Japanese Empire was able to effect a significant assault on our homeland.  But those nineteen young Islamic shahids revealed a weapon which the Western mind simply isn't ready to deal with -- the willingness to die.  If just nineteen men can inflict that level of damage upon us, imagine what nineteen thousand could do.
> 
> We don't need enemies like that.
> 
> 
> 
> If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.
Click to expand...

Thank you.


----------



## Againsheila

loinboy said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most intimidating thing about the 9/11 attack was not the actual devastation but the fact that nineteen healthy young men would so readily sacrifice their own lives to strike at us.  This kind of suicidal vengeance is well beyond the ability of the average American mind to comprehend, mainly because we are not an oppressed people.
> 
> In spite of having advanced military capabilities, neither the Third Reich nor the Japanese Empire was able to effect a significant assault on our homeland.  But those nineteen young Islamic shahids revealed a weapon which the Western mind simply isn't ready to deal with -- the willingness to die.  If just nineteen men can inflict that level of damage upon us, imagine what nineteen thousand could do.
> 
> We don't need enemies like that.
> 
> 
> 
> If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.
Click to expand...


Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.


----------



## Billo_Really

Againsheila said:


> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.


*Edited.*

Us bombing the shit out of their neighborhoods, brings out more hatred than any religious teachings.


----------



## Lipush

MikeK said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the kind of thoughtlessly oppressive attitude that gives rise to suicidal terrorism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If an explanation is needed it's quite simple:  When you make someone's life so miserable it's not worth living anymore the fear of death is diminished and is replaced by murderous rage.
> 
> Some years back I met a young Palestinian student while attending a credited lecture at Columbia.  She was living here on a visa and she told us her family had for generations occupied a small date orchard for years on land which was being gradually expropriated by Israel:  One day a car and a jeep pulled up to the house.  There were three Israeli troopers in the jeep.  One of the civilians from the car knocked on the door and told her mother their land belonged to him and they had two weeks to vacate.
> 
> She said there was nothing Semitic about the man.  Rather he was clearly an Ashkenazi Jew, probably a migrant from the U.S., and that such expropriations were very common.  She said if one asks these Israeli settlers how they came to own the land they tell you it was given to them by God.  (A rather novel real estate concept.)
> 
> I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis.  I imagine the same situation happening to me and I can readily understand the kind of boiling rage that drives these suicidal shahids.
> 
> You take away everything someone has to live for, including their self-worth, and you'd better watch out.  Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.
Click to expand...


Tell me then, if you don't mind, just how many Jews who survived the destruction camps, Jews that had nothing left but their cloths, at best, who lost dear ones, property, home, who were abused and humiliated, translated their anguish into what you call "rage" and began terrorizing German kids?

How many of them stabbed Christian babies in their sleep, called for an open war on Germany, said that their "rage" is boiling over to the point when they got nothing to lose?

0.

You know what they did? They were trying to re-create. to focus on what was LEFT. on LIFE.

And their situation was MUCH WORSE then the Palestinians.

Let us look at things from the other side of the coin for a minute. Gaza is currently under blockade. There is a reason for that. The blockade, since it's existence, tells us we need to care of them to the point where they can exist and not starve.

Tell me, why is there a need for Israel to give them things that will only HELP them fight against Israel?

Is there any other country on the face of the earth which FEEDS it's enemies?

Will you ever hear of an Al-Quaeda fighter being treated without strings in an American hospital? Do you know that at cases the same people who shoot rockets at Israelis, are treated inside Israeli hospitals?

Yes we need to take care of them, because of the blockade. That does not mean we need to load the same gun which will shoot us in the future. It's simply insane.


----------



## jillian

loinboy said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most intimidating thing about the 9/11 attack was not the actual devastation but the fact that nineteen healthy young men would so readily sacrifice their own lives to strike at us.  This kind of suicidal vengeance is well beyond the ability of the average American mind to comprehend, mainly because we are not an oppressed people.
> 
> In spite of having advanced military capabilities, neither the Third Reich nor the Japanese Empire was able to effect a significant assault on our homeland.  But those nineteen young Islamic shahids revealed a weapon which the Western mind simply isn't ready to deal with -- the willingness to die.  If just nineteen men can inflict that level of damage upon us, imagine what nineteen thousand could do.
> 
> We don't need enemies like that.
> 
> 
> 
> If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.
Click to expand...


and what did spain do to them?

this idea that terrorists won't be terrorists if you're nice to them is pathetic.

and they should stop sending missiles into israel and focus on actually pretending they're ready to govern themselves.

life is funny that way.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> That's bullshit!
> 
> Us bombing the shit out of their neighborhoods, brings out more hatred than any religious teachings.
Click to expand...


THEY DON'T CARE!!!!

You think the Arabs care about the Palestinians?! you must be joking! the only thing the outside Arab world has in common with the Palestinians is their hatred of the Yahud!

For crying out loud, the Iranians and Palestinians are sunni-shia! those loonies hate each other with passion! but when fighting the Jews there is no conflict suddenly, eh??

over 42,000 people have died in Syria! you see people care? Muslims are being killed in the Burma, you see people care??

The only reason why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has such awareness in the Arab world is because there are Jews involved! "And they hide behind stones and trees, and the stones and trees will call- A Jew is behind me! come and kill him!"

If it wasn't Islam against Jews, they would not have cared!


----------



## jillian

Lipush said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> That's bullshit!
> 
> Us bombing the shit out of their neighborhoods, brings out more hatred than any religious teachings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> THEY DON'T CARE!!!!
> 
> You think the Arabs care about the Palestinians?! you must be joking! the only thing the outside Arab world has in common with the Palestinians is their hatred of the Yahud!
> 
> For crying out loud, the Iranians and Palestinians are sunni-shia! those loonies hate each other with passion! but when fighting the Jews there is no conflict suddenly, eh??
> 
> over 42,000 people have died in Syria! you see people care? Muslims are being killed in the Burma, you see people care??
> 
> The only reason why the Israeli-Palestinian fonclict has such awareness in the Arab world is because there are Jews involved! "And they hide behind stones and trees, and the stones and trees will call- A Jew is behind me! come and kill him!"
> 
> If it wasn't Islam against Jews, they would not have cared!
Click to expand...


again, this isn't the israel/pal section where debate consists of "yes it is"// "no it isn't".

i'm looking for real answers about why there is a difference in the standard by which israel is judged as opposed to other countries that defend their borders.

because, ultimately, notwithstanding the whining and whinging and misrepresentations of terrorist supporters. israel exists. it has every right to exist. and has the right to secure borders where missiles aren't aimed at it's civilian populations.

and if you can't get to those very simple conclusions, then you should examine your reasons for the disparity in your treatment of the only jewish country in the world.

(this isn't directed at you, lipush, but at the terrorist supporters who thought it was a good idea to interject their propaganda into this thread instead of making an effort at honest analysis).


----------



## Two Thumbs

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



Every country has every right to defend itself, to the bitter end if need be.

Ironically, jews find themselves to be the pinata at the party when it comes to defending muslims.

The irony?

I'll let yall work that out.


----------



## Aristotle

Againsheila said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most intimidating thing about the 9/11 attack was not the actual devastation but the fact that nineteen healthy young men would so readily sacrifice their own lives to strike at us.  This kind of suicidal vengeance is well beyond the ability of the average American mind to comprehend, mainly because we are not an oppressed people.
> 
> In spite of having advanced military capabilities, neither the Third Reich nor the Japanese Empire was able to effect a significant assault on our homeland.  But those nineteen young Islamic shahids revealed a weapon which the Western mind simply isn't ready to deal with -- the willingness to die.  If just nineteen men can inflict that level of damage upon us, imagine what nineteen thousand could do.
> 
> We don't need enemies like that.
> 
> 
> 
> If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
Click to expand...

Yes but its also hypocritical to forget that Christians want everyone to come to Christ.

Why do you think they have organizations like "The Red Cross" missionaries, etc..


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain?
> 
> 
> 
> If an explanation is needed it's quite simple:  When you make someone's life so miserable it's not worth living anymore the fear of death is diminished and is replaced by murderous rage.
> 
> Some years back I met a young Palestinian student while attending a credited lecture at Columbia.  She was living here on a visa and she told us her family had for generations occupied a small date orchard for years on land which was being gradually expropriated by Israel:  One day a car and a jeep pulled up to the house.  There were three Israeli troopers in the jeep.  One of the civilians from the car knocked on the door and told her mother their land belonged to him and they had two weeks to vacate.
> 
> She said there was nothing Semitic about the man.  Rather he was clearly an Ashkenazi Jew, probably a migrant from the U.S., and that such expropriations were very common.  She said if one asks these Israeli settlers how they came to own the land they tell you it was given to them by God.  (A rather novel real estate concept.)
> 
> I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis.  I imagine the same situation happening to me and I can readily understand the kind of boiling rage that drives these suicidal shahids.
> 
> You take away everything someone has to live for, including their self-worth, and you'd better watch out.  Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell me then, if you don't mind, just how many Jews who survived the destruction camps, Jews that had nothing left but their cloths, at best, who lost dear ones, property, home, who were abused and humiliated, translated their anguish into what you call "rage" and began terrorizing German kids?
> 
> How many of them stabbed Christian babies in their sleep, called for an open war on Germany, said that their "rage" is boiling over to the point when they got nothing to lose?
> 
> 0.
> 
> You know what they did? They were trying to re-create. to focus on what was LEFT. on LIFE.
> 
> And their situation was MUCH WORSE then the Palestinians.
> 
> Let us look at things from the other side of the coin for a minute. Gaza is currently under blockade. There is a reason for that. The blockade, since it's existence, tells us we need to care of them to the point where they can exist and not starve.
> 
> Tell me, why is there a need for Israel to give them things that will only HELP them fight against Israel?
> 
> Is there any other country on the face of the earth which FEEDS it's enemies?
> 
> Will you ever hear of an Al-Quaeda fighter being treated without strings in an American hospital? Do you know that at cases the same people who shoot rockets at Israelis, are treated inside Israeli hospitals?
> 
> Yes we need to take care of them, because of the blockade. That does not mean we need to load the same gun which will shoot us in the future. It's simply insane.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.

I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.

I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:

I hate what Israel stands for

I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"

I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"

I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.

I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.

I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.

I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.

I hate Israel all together


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> If an explanation is needed it's quite simple:  When you make someone's life so miserable it's not worth living anymore the fear of death is diminished and is replaced by murderous rage.
> 
> Some years back I met a young Palestinian student while attending a credited lecture at Columbia.  She was living here on a visa and she told us her family had for generations occupied a small date orchard for years on land which was being gradually expropriated by Israel:  One day a car and a jeep pulled up to the house.  There were three Israeli troopers in the jeep.  One of the civilians from the car knocked on the door and told her mother their land belonged to him and they had two weeks to vacate.
> 
> She said there was nothing Semitic about the man.  Rather he was clearly an Ashkenazi Jew, probably a migrant from the U.S., and that such expropriations were very common.  She said if one asks these Israeli settlers how they came to own the land they tell you it was given to them by God.  (A rather novel real estate concept.)
> 
> I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis.  I imagine the same situation happening to me and I can readily understand the kind of boiling rage that drives these suicidal shahids.
> 
> You take away everything someone has to live for, including their self-worth, and you'd better watch out.  Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me then, if you don't mind, just how many Jews who survived the destruction camps, Jews that had nothing left but their cloths, at best, who lost dear ones, property, home, who were abused and humiliated, translated their anguish into what you call "rage" and began terrorizing German kids?
> 
> How many of them stabbed Christian babies in their sleep, called for an open war on Germany, said that their "rage" is boiling over to the point when they got nothing to lose?
> 
> 0.
> 
> You know what they did? They were trying to re-create. to focus on what was LEFT. on LIFE.
> 
> And their situation was MUCH WORSE then the Palestinians.
> 
> Let us look at things from the other side of the coin for a minute. Gaza is currently under blockade. There is a reason for that. The blockade, since it's existence, tells us we need to care of them to the point where they can exist and not starve.
> 
> Tell me, why is there a need for Israel to give them things that will only HELP them fight against Israel?
> 
> Is there any other country on the face of the earth which FEEDS it's enemies?
> 
> Will you ever hear of an Al-Quaeda fighter being treated without strings in an American hospital? Do you know that at cases the same people who shoot rockets at Israelis, are treated inside Israeli hospitals?
> 
> Yes we need to take care of them, because of the blockade. That does not mean we need to load the same gun which will shoot us in the future. It's simply insane.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.
> 
> I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.
> 
> I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:
> 
> I hate what Israel stands for
> 
> I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"
> 
> I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"
> 
> I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.
> 
> I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.
> 
> I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.
> 
> I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.
> 
> I hate Israel all together
Click to expand...


It is your issue to solve this hate.

It is our issue to make sure that Israel won't become another Calipath.

God knows, we had enough of those.


----------



## Intense

Aristotle said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes but its also hypocritical to forget that Christians want everyone to come to Christ.
> 
> Why do you think they have organizations like "The Red Cross" missionaries, etc..
Click to expand...


Yes and no. If I pray for you, or anyone, it's for your salvation, Communion with God, by whatever name you call Him, by whatever words you choose, in sincerity of heart. Your Faith, the Brand of Faith, being a matter of Conscience, is between You and Your Maker, same holds for Each of us. Let's distinguish between reminding us of our priorities and force feeding perspective. It is for Each of us to make our own choices, and take responsibility for them. Personally I don't see group rate discounts relating to Salvation. It's not about blaming others, nor finger pointing, either. Hold em or fold em, it's your call.


----------



## Intense

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> If an explanation is needed it's quite simple:  When you make someone's life so miserable it's not worth living anymore the fear of death is diminished and is replaced by murderous rage.
> 
> Some years back I met a young Palestinian student while attending a credited lecture at Columbia.  She was living here on a visa and she told us her family had for generations occupied a small date orchard for years on land which was being gradually expropriated by Israel:  One day a car and a jeep pulled up to the house.  There were three Israeli troopers in the jeep.  One of the civilians from the car knocked on the door and told her mother their land belonged to him and they had two weeks to vacate.
> 
> She said there was nothing Semitic about the man.  Rather he was clearly an Ashkenazi Jew, probably a migrant from the U.S., and that such expropriations were very common.  She said if one asks these Israeli settlers how they came to own the land they tell you it was given to them by God.  (A rather novel real estate concept.)
> 
> I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis.  I imagine the same situation happening to me and I can readily understand the kind of boiling rage that drives these suicidal shahids.
> 
> You take away everything someone has to live for, including their self-worth, and you'd better watch out.  Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me then, if you don't mind, just how many Jews who survived the destruction camps, Jews that had nothing left but their cloths, at best, who lost dear ones, property, home, who were abused and humiliated, translated their anguish into what you call "rage" and began terrorizing German kids?
> 
> How many of them stabbed Christian babies in their sleep, called for an open war on Germany, said that their "rage" is boiling over to the point when they got nothing to lose?
> 
> 0.
> 
> You know what they did? They were trying to re-create. to focus on what was LEFT. on LIFE.
> 
> And their situation was MUCH WORSE then the Palestinians.
> 
> Let us look at things from the other side of the coin for a minute. Gaza is currently under blockade. There is a reason for that. The blockade, since it's existence, tells us we need to care of them to the point where they can exist and not starve.
> 
> Tell me, why is there a need for Israel to give them things that will only HELP them fight against Israel?
> 
> Is there any other country on the face of the earth which FEEDS it's enemies?
> 
> Will you ever hear of an Al-Quaeda fighter being treated without strings in an American hospital? Do you know that at cases the same people who shoot rockets at Israelis, are treated inside Israeli hospitals?
> 
> Yes we need to take care of them, because of the blockade. That does not mean we need to load the same gun which will shoot us in the future. It's simply insane.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.
> 
> I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.
> 
> I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:
> 
> I hate what Israel stands for
> 
> I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"
> 
> I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"
> 
> I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.
> 
> I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.
> 
> I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.
> 
> I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.
> 
> I hate Israel all together
Click to expand...


That's a lot of hate. You need to work past that. It's an obvious stumbling block.


----------



## Intense

Aristotle said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes but its also hypocritical to forget that Christians want everyone to come to Christ.
> 
> Why do you think they have organizations like "The Red Cross" missionaries, etc..
Click to expand...


Red Cross, Red Crescent, Salvation Army? I thought they were established to give aid and comfort. What I want for You, I want for Each of Us. Peace with God. Uncorrupted Peace. Not on my terms, or conditions, nor Yours.


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me then, if you don't mind, just how many Jews who survived the destruction camps, Jews that had nothing left but their cloths, at best, who lost dear ones, property, home, who were abused and humiliated, translated their anguish into what you call "rage" and began terrorizing German kids?
> 
> How many of them stabbed Christian babies in their sleep, called for an open war on Germany, said that their "rage" is boiling over to the point when they got nothing to lose?
> 
> 0.
> 
> You know what they did? They were trying to re-create. to focus on what was LEFT. on LIFE.
> 
> And their situation was MUCH WORSE then the Palestinians.
> 
> Let us look at things from the other side of the coin for a minute. Gaza is currently under blockade. There is a reason for that. The blockade, since it's existence, tells us we need to care of them to the point where they can exist and not starve.
> 
> Tell me, why is there a need for Israel to give them things that will only HELP them fight against Israel?
> 
> Is there any other country on the face of the earth which FEEDS it's enemies?
> 
> Will you ever hear of an Al-Quaeda fighter being treated without strings in an American hospital? Do you know that at cases the same people who shoot rockets at Israelis, are treated inside Israeli hospitals?
> 
> Yes we need to take care of them, because of the blockade. That does not mean we need to load the same gun which will shoot us in the future. It's simply insane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.
> 
> I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.
> 
> I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:
> 
> I hate what Israel stands for
> 
> I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"
> 
> I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"
> 
> I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.
> 
> I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.
> 
> I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.
> 
> I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.
> 
> I hate Israel all together
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is your issue to solve this hate.
> 
> It is our issue to make sure that Israel won't become another Calipath.
> 
> God knows, we had enough of those.
Click to expand...


Actually save those remarks to the Palestinians. Israel is no different than Hamas in fact, Israel is worse than Hamas. I have never been to Israel but have seen pictures from college buddies and all I can say is Israel looks a lot nicer than Palestine the place looks like a freggin slum. Those people live in worse conditions.

No wonder Israeli soldiers wear their M16 everywhere they go....

The Likud Party in my opinion doesn't want peace. The people who are vocal are hateful Israelis who want to maintain victimhood who shooting down palestinians and my countrymen.

My hatred for Israel is at the level of Palestinians but if I was a poor palestinian who lost a mother to a rocket intended for a Hamas figure and my family receive no recompensation for this "collateral damage" as the Israelies say, believe me I would join Hamas as well and do what I can to exterminate as many "Yahudis" as I could.


When will the Jews say ENOUGH to bloodshed? You act like the entire Palestinian people are terrorist. No, they are angry and full of rage and are likely to be recruited by terrorist organizations because these organizations can find a surplus of expendable soldiers.


----------



## Aristotle

Intense said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me then, if you don't mind, just how many Jews who survived the destruction camps, Jews that had nothing left but their cloths, at best, who lost dear ones, property, home, who were abused and humiliated, translated their anguish into what you call "rage" and began terrorizing German kids?
> 
> How many of them stabbed Christian babies in their sleep, called for an open war on Germany, said that their "rage" is boiling over to the point when they got nothing to lose?
> 
> 0.
> 
> You know what they did? They were trying to re-create. to focus on what was LEFT. on LIFE.
> 
> And their situation was MUCH WORSE then the Palestinians.
> 
> Let us look at things from the other side of the coin for a minute. Gaza is currently under blockade. There is a reason for that. The blockade, since it's existence, tells us we need to care of them to the point where they can exist and not starve.
> 
> Tell me, why is there a need for Israel to give them things that will only HELP them fight against Israel?
> 
> Is there any other country on the face of the earth which FEEDS it's enemies?
> 
> Will you ever hear of an Al-Quaeda fighter being treated without strings in an American hospital? Do you know that at cases the same people who shoot rockets at Israelis, are treated inside Israeli hospitals?
> 
> Yes we need to take care of them, because of the blockade. That does not mean we need to load the same gun which will shoot us in the future. It's simply insane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.
> 
> I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.
> 
> I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:
> 
> I hate what Israel stands for
> 
> I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"
> 
> I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"
> 
> I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.
> 
> I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.
> 
> I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.
> 
> I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.
> 
> I hate Israel all together
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's a lot of hate. You need to work past that. It's an obvious stumbling block.
Click to expand...


I can't. I lost all respect for this Israel's right to defend itself when an American protester was ran over by a bulldozer and Israel did freggin nothing. Actually my hatred was compounded after that. When I read independent news and see Palestinian kids being pulled out of rubble and considered "collateral damage" it sickens me.

All this talk about the Holy Land and God and yet Israel has no problen killing children.


----------



## Aristotle

Intense said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but its also hypocritical to forget that Christians want everyone to come to Christ.
> 
> Why do you think they have organizations like "The Red Cross" missionaries, etc..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no. If I pray for you, or anyone, it's for your salvation, Communion with God, by whatever name you call Him, by whatever words you choose, in sincerity of heart. Your Faith, the Brand of Faith, being a matter of Conscience, is between You and Your Maker, same holds for Each of us. Let's distinguish between reminding us of our priorities and force feeding perspective. It is for Each of us to make our own choices, and take responsibility for them. Personally I don't see group rate discounts relating to Salvation. It's not about blaming others, nor finger pointing, either. Hold em or fold em, it's your call.
Click to expand...


This doesn't ring true for everyone else. I cannot recall how many times an evangelical said I was going to hell.

If God is like any Christian I see here I can only recall the passage of Dante's Inferno:

'Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.
> 
> I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.
> 
> I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:
> 
> I hate what Israel stands for
> 
> I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"
> 
> I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"
> 
> I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.
> 
> I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.
> 
> I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.
> 
> I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.
> 
> I hate Israel all together
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is your issue to solve this hate.
> 
> It is our issue to make sure that Israel won't become another Calipath.
> 
> God knows, we had enough of those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually save those remarks to the Palestinians. Israel is no different than Hamas in fact, Israel is worse than Hamas. I have never been to Israel but have seen pictures from college buddies and all I can say is Israel looks a lot nicer than Palestine the place looks like a freggin slum. Those people live in worse conditions.
> 
> No wonder Israeli soldiers wear their M16 everywhere they go....
> 
> The Likud Party in my opinion doesn't want peace. The people who are vocal are hateful Israelis who want to maintain victimhood who shooting down palestinians and my countrymen.
> 
> My hatred for Israel is at the level of Palestinians but if I was a poor palestinian who lost a mother to a rocket intended for a Hamas figure and my family receive no recompensation for this "collateral damage" as the Israelies say, believe me I would join Hamas as well and do what I can to exterminate as many "Yahudis" as I could.
> 
> 
> When will the Jews say ENOUGH to bloodshed? You act like the entire Palestinian people are terrorist. No, they are angry and full of rage and are likely to be recruited by terrorist organizations because these organizations can find a surplus of expendable soldiers.
Click to expand...


You say you have never been in Israel. your knowledge comes from what...books? pictures? that's what you say.

So basically, you know jack.

Good to know we're getting somewhere.

Those people live in worse conditions. And why is that,? Doesn't your government give the Palestinians TONS of money? Where does that money go to?

You say Likud doesn't want peace.

Ok. 

Peace is just a second to life. If we can make peace, sure why not. But let us not worship peace in a manner that we bury our families in its sake.

Your hatred of Israel comes from IGNORANCE, my friend. you say yourself your source of knowledge is very narrow.

You say if you would have been a palestinian who lost a loved one you would have joined the hate cyrcle.

So tell me, out of your deep "understanding", what is Tamar Fogel supposed to feel? What is Nahlah Pass supposed to feel? Are only the "Palestinians" with the right to feel rage, or anger?

Doesn't Osher Twitto have the right to feel revenge? Don't the children of the Haimof family? The schevischorder brothers?

Your critisicsm if anything, should be directed at both Israel and "Palestine" because we both screwed up since the beginning of the conflict.

You can also ask the Hamas or Hezbollah, if they aren't yet tired of bloodshed. Why is your hate onlytargeted toward Israel is beyond me.

It is about time that both Palestinians and Israelis decide we're all fed up with the current situation


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.
> 
> I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.
> 
> I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:
> 
> I hate what Israel stands for
> 
> I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"
> 
> I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"
> 
> I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.
> 
> I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.
> 
> I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.
> 
> I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.
> 
> I hate Israel all together
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a lot of hate. You need to work past that. It's an obvious stumbling block.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't. I lost all respect for this Israel's right to defend itself when an American protester was ran over by a bulldozer and Israel did freggin nothing. Actually my hatred was compounded after that. When I read independent news and see Palestinian kids being pulled out of rubble and considered "collateral damage" it sickens me.
> 
> All this talk about the Holy Land and God and yet Israel has no problen killing children.
Click to expand...


Af for an American who has no connection to either side, you're terribly one sided.


----------



## Intense

Aristotle said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but that sob story gets no sympathy for me.
> 
> I don't care what the Jewish creed is regarding the dust and rubble you call Israel. Jews have no right to march on any land and declare it theirs. As for you signature its insulting to the Arab families of Palestine who have inhabited Israel longer than Jewish migration back to your precious Israel.
> 
> I will tell you this...Without violating the terms here:
> 
> I hate what Israel stands for
> 
> I hate that when I protest against Israeli aggression I am somehow "Anti-Semitic"
> 
> I hate that you say "my pain is worse than the Palestinians"
> 
> I hate that my friends who are Israeli but of Arab descent complain of racism and are called "Arabush" by Jews in Israel.
> 
> I hate that my country (United States) supports you under this misguided notion that they are fulfilling some biblical prophecy.
> 
> I hate that you turn away when whole families are destroyed.
> 
> I hate that Israel did nothing when an American protester was ran over by a freggin bulldozer protesting the settlements.
> 
> I hate Israel all together
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a lot of hate. You need to work past that. It's an obvious stumbling block.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't. I lost all respect for this Israel's right to defend itself when an American protester was ran over by a bulldozer and Israel did freggin nothing. Actually my hatred was compounded after that. When I read independent news and see Palestinian kids being pulled out of rubble and considered "collateral damage" it sickens me.
> 
> All this talk about the Holy Land and God and yet Israel has no problen killing children.
Click to expand...


Let's distinguish between Human Nature and Politics, first. I really don't remember any Wars without collateral Damage and unintended consequence. That's part of why War sucks in the first place, and should be the last resort. The next issue is forgiveness. What can be forgiven, what can't, and what rules apply to who. We each have got to learn to let things go, otherwise how is it that even we ourselves attain Salvation? No One is without sin. No One from cradle to grave, has lived without offending others. Blessed is the Someone who had offended by being Righteous, that's both a given and a blessing. WWJD? What would Gandhi do? There are things beyond our power. Sometimes whole Generations need to die off before realization takes effect. Corrupting the young, playing  the Vendetta game, only perpetuates the corruption. One thing to keep in mind here, is if you trace back far enough, all of the players are related. We are All related.


----------



## Intense

Aristotle said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but its also hypocritical to forget that Christians want everyone to come to Christ.
> 
> Why do you think they have organizations like "The Red Cross" missionaries, etc..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no. If I pray for you, or anyone, it's for your salvation, Communion with God, by whatever name you call Him, by whatever words you choose, in sincerity of heart. Your Faith, the Brand of Faith, being a matter of Conscience, is between You and Your Maker, same holds for Each of us. Let's distinguish between reminding us of our priorities and force feeding perspective. It is for Each of us to make our own choices, and take responsibility for them. Personally I don't see group rate discounts relating to Salvation. It's not about blaming others, nor finger pointing, either. Hold em or fold em, it's your call.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This doesn't ring true for everyone else. I cannot recall how many times an evangelical said I was going to hell.
> 
> If God is like any Christian I see here I can only recall the passage of Dante's Inferno:
> 
> 'Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."
Click to expand...


Probably talking more in fear of Condemnation, than Faith in God being all powerful. We are each where we are. I'd side more with doing something because it's recognized as the right thing to do, over picking brands. I do believe that We each have a channel to the Almighty. I'd rather see you develop yours, through your own conscience, than blindly follow. That passage in The Divine Comedy, is pretty far from the root or theme of the work, don't you think? The Tangents are not the prize, though the lessons learned are of value, no?


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is your issue to solve this hate.
> 
> It is our issue to make sure that Israel won't become another Calipath.
> 
> God knows, we had enough of those.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually save those remarks to the Palestinians. Israel is no different than Hamas in fact, Israel is worse than Hamas. I have never been to Israel but have seen pictures from college buddies and all I can say is Israel looks a lot nicer than Palestine the place looks like a freggin slum. Those people live in worse conditions.
> 
> No wonder Israeli soldiers wear their M16 everywhere they go....
> 
> The Likud Party in my opinion doesn't want peace. The people who are vocal are hateful Israelis who want to maintain victimhood who shooting down palestinians and my countrymen.
> 
> My hatred for Israel is at the level of Palestinians but if I was a poor palestinian who lost a mother to a rocket intended for a Hamas figure and my family receive no recompensation for this "collateral damage" as the Israelies say, believe me I would join Hamas as well and do what I can to exterminate as many "Yahudis" as I could.
> 
> 
> When will the Jews say ENOUGH to bloodshed? You act like the entire Palestinian people are terrorist. No, they are angry and full of rage and are likely to be recruited by terrorist organizations because these organizations can find a surplus of expendable soldiers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You say you have never been in Israel. your knowledge comes from what...books? pictures? that's what you say.
> 
> So basically, you know jack.
> 
> Good to know we're getting somewhere.
> 
> Those people live in worse conditions. And why is that,? Doesn't your government give the Palestinians TONS of money? Where does that money go to?
> 
> You say Likud doesn't want peace.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Peace is just a second to life. If we can make peace, sure why not. But let us not worship peace in a manner that we bury our families in its sake.
> 
> Your hatred of Israel comes from IGNORANCE, my friend. you say yourself your source of knowledge is very narrow.
> 
> You say if you would have been a palestinian who lost a loved one you would have joined the hate cyrcle.
> 
> So tell me, out of your deep "understanding", what is Tamar Fogel supposed to feel? What is Nahlah Pass supposed to feel? Are only the "Palestinians" with the right to feel rage, or anger?
> 
> Doesn't Osher Twitto have the right to feel revenge? Don't the children of the Haimof family? The schevischorder brothers?
> 
> Your critisicsm if anything, should be directed at both Israel and "Palestine" because we both screwed up since the beginning of the conflict.
> 
> You can also ask the Hamas or Hezbollah, if they aren't yet tired of bloodshed. Why is your hate onlytargeted toward Israel is beyond me.
> 
> It is about time that both Palestinians and Israelis decide we're all fed up with the current situation
Click to expand...


Let's discuss where my knowledge of Israel comes from....

Since I was a philosophy major I studied extensive readings on Moses Maimonides and "Mish'nah Torah" along with his book "The Guide for the Perplexed"

My political knowlefge comes from following the Mid East crisis since the Clinton Administration. Aside from that I have several friends from Israel who I have befriended. I know one personally who was heavily into Hamas philosophy until he came to school out here. Giving Israel the benefit of doubt I decided one day to venture to a Sheol and see what is Judaism and Israel about (I find Israel walks hand in hand with Judaism) I was turned away both times. I was once told by a Rabbi that its prohibited for me to learn Jewish teachings.


So if a little ole guy like me is turned away because I cannot satisfy my curiousity to learn I can imagine what my Arab friends felt as they shared stories of their loved ones being killed and being discriminated against for being Arab.

Lemme see, hmm I know we give Israel tens of million (if not hundreds) of dollars, majority of it is military based. The aid we give to Palestine is not nearly enough.

What else do I know about Israel? I know its a racist state that is in love with its own victimhood. If I could I'd spit on the wailing wall.


----------



## Aristotle

Intense said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a lot of hate. You need to work past that. It's an obvious stumbling block.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't. I lost all respect for this Israel's right to defend itself when an American protester was ran over by a bulldozer and Israel did freggin nothing. Actually my hatred was compounded after that. When I read independent news and see Palestinian kids being pulled out of rubble and considered "collateral damage" it sickens me.
> 
> All this talk about the Holy Land and God and yet Israel has no problen killing children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's distinguish between Human Nature and Politics, first. I really don't remember any Wars without collateral Damage and unintended consequence. That's part of why War sucks in the first place, and should be the last resort. The next issue is forgiveness. What can be forgiven, what can't, and what rules apply to who. We each have got to learn to let things go, otherwise how is it that even we ourselves attain Salvation? No One is without sin. No One from cradle to grave, has lived without offending others. Blessed is the Someone who had offended by being Righteous, that's both a given and a blessing. WWJD? What would Gandhi do? There are things beyond our power. Sometimes whole Generations need to die off before realization takes effect. Corrupting the young, playing  the Vendetta game, only perpetuates the corruption. One thing to keep in mind here, is if you trace back far enough, all of the players are related. We are All related.
Click to expand...


Come on this is a complete cop out. How do you stop a bulldozer? You turn the damn thing off. This is different than flying an F-16 over land where objects are miniscule. This is what I dont like about all this. When an Israeli gets killed it was a terrorist act, when a palestinian that was not specifically targeted gets killed its collateral damage.


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a lot of hate. You need to work past that. It's an obvious stumbling block.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't. I lost all respect for this Israel's right to defend itself when an American protester was ran over by a bulldozer and Israel did freggin nothing. Actually my hatred was compounded after that. When I read independent news and see Palestinian kids being pulled out of rubble and considered "collateral damage" it sickens me.
> 
> All this talk about the Holy Land and God and yet Israel has no problen killing children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Af for an American who has no connection to either side, you're terribly one sided.
Click to expand...


Again I was neutral until I had unfortunate collective experiences that shifted my opinion. Look at your freggin signature your one to talk. Palestinians were in that land longer than the Jewish. exodus prior to the 1900's and you say Arabs occupied your land?


----------



## MHunterB

The US has absolutely no business supporting Israel on the grounds of Biblical understanding - that's obscene!!!

The US has every right to support Israel on the grounds that doing so is good for the US - that's the proper basis for a secular state to use in decision-making.  And I believe that there's enough information given by the US government (as opposed to this or that administration) to explain that basis.

I am not going to argue with a lot of the criticisms made by Aristotle against Israel.  I *do* argue that he hasn't bothered to make any such list of criticisms with regard to either the PA or HAMAS - either of which has been claiming to represent Palestinian national aspirations.

I'm not sure what Aristotle's reason for not having such a list would be - if we go down the list of US allies, starting with the UK  we can see things they do which are anathema to the US.......


----------



## MHunterB

PS:  Aristotle, if one intends to convey "Israelis", one had better say "Israelis" - and better still the government or administration or parties involved.

When anyone criticizes presumed policies of "Israel" and then refers to 'the Jews', that sets up an unfortunate association which is extremely difficult to ignore.  It's like a huge buzzing static behind all the words.

I'd also like to know if you place priority on someone being 'American' per se, or is it upon their specific personal philosophy and beliefs?  

Incidentally, Corrie wasn't 'protesting the settlements' - and have you ever read the Israeli courts' findings on the case?


----------



## Aristotle

MHunterB said:


> The US has absolutely no business supporting Israel on the grounds of Biblical understanding - that's obscene!!!
> 
> The US has every right to support Israel on the grounds that doing so is good for the US - that's the proper basis for a secular state to use in decision-making.  And I believe that there's enough information given by the US government (as opposed to this or that administration) to explain that basis.
> 
> I am not going to argue with a lot of the criticisms made by Aristotle against Israel.  I *do* argue that he hasn't bothered to make any such list of criticisms with regard to either the PA or HAMAS - either of which has been claiming to represent Palestinian national aspirations.
> 
> I'm not sure what Aristotle's reason for not having such a list would be - if we go down the list of US allies, starting with the UK  we can see things they do which are anathema to the US.......



Do you honestly think the U.S supports Israel because of some moral reason? No. Most right wingers with political influence wants to maintain an alliance with Israel for religious reasons. Which is why Obama will not criticize Israel even if Israel is wrong. As for my criticism of the Palestinians of course they are wrong for lobbing rockets towards Israel. Two wrongs dont make a right. My issue is the language.

When Jews are criticized its anti-semitic.

To deny the holocaust is punishable (even if the person truly believes it).

When an Israeli is killed its a terrorist act, when a palestinian gets killed its either an elimination of a terrorist or its collateral damage. I am not saying to not be allies with Israel I am saying let Israel handle this by themselves


----------



## MHunterB

Aristotle, your reply seems very confused to me.   I haven't got the patience just now to tease it all apart and try explaining over again.  

I understand that you have strong feelings against 'right winger religious extremists' - what you don' seem to realize is that I AGREE with you about those individuals.

You seem unaware that 'questioning the Holocaust' is a crime in Canada, Germany, and quite a few nations but NOT! in the US.  Of course it isn't 'questioning'  anyway:  it's *denying*  the very well-documented fact that the Nazis deliberately initiated and pursued a policy of genocide and mass murders against many groups wherever they ruled.  'Investigating' is all very well and good - but the 'historical investigations' of such as Irving and Zundel are about as scientific and as intellectually honest as 'creation science *ministries*'  efforts.

And the end goal of such 'questioning' has been - in every single iteration I've seen in the past 50 years! - to seek to exonerate the Nazi party and its philosophy from the many crimes it committed.  *'Questioning the Holocaust' = 'Nazi Apologtics'.*

And the US does tolerate such shameful and debased speech, yes.  However, while anyone can say just about anything - there can be no law requiring others to not be disgusted by such speech.


----------



## MHunterB

So what are you trying to tell us, Aristotle - that you think if a person 'believes' something which is factually demonstrably false, we should just ignore that in how we assess their ability to make rational decisions?

I think that's possible up to a point - but if that person presumes to claim they're a 'historian' and write books promoting that false scenario, we have an obligation to avoid using such books as text books, don't we?


----------



## Jroc

jillian said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's bullshit!
> 
> Us bombing the shit out of their neighborhoods, brings out more hatred than any religious teachings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THEY DON'T CARE!!!!
> 
> You think the Arabs care about the Palestinians?! you must be joking! the only thing the outside Arab world has in common with the Palestinians is their* hatred of the Yahud!*
> 
> For crying out loud, the Iranians and Palestinians are sunni-shia! those loonies hate each other with passion! but when fighting the Jews there is no conflict suddenly, eh??
> 
> over 42,000 people have died in Syria! you see people care? Muslims are being killed in the Burma, you see people care??
> 
> The only reason why the Israeli-Palestinian fonclict has such awareness in the Arab world is because there are *Jews involved! *"And they hide behind stones and trees, and the stones and trees will call- A Jew is behind me! come and kill him!"
> 
> If it wasn't Islam against Jews, they would not have cared!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> again, this isn't the israel/pal section where debate consists of "yes it is"// "no it isn't".
> 
> *i'm looking for real answers about why there is a difference in the standard by which israel is judged as opposed to other countries that defend their borders*.
> 
> because, ultimately, notwithstanding the whining and whinging and misrepresentations of terrorist supporters. israel exists. it has every right to exist. and has the right to secure borders where missiles aren't aimed at it's civilian populations.
> 
> and if you can't get to those very simple conclusions, then you should examine your reasons for the disparity in your treatment of the only jewish country in the world.
> 
> (this isn't directed at you, lipush, but at the terrorist supporters who thought it was a good idea to interject their propaganda into this thread instead of making an effort at honest analysis).
Click to expand...


 So Lipush's answer is not an answer to your question? General dislike and in many cases hatred of Jews is not an answer to your question?


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> PS:  *Aristotle, if one intends to convey "Israelis", one had better say "Israelis" - *and better still the government or administration or parties involved.
> 
> When anyone criticizes presumed policies of "Israel" and then refers to 'the Jews', that sets up an unfortunate association which is extremely difficult to ignore.  It's like a huge buzzing static behind all the words.
> 
> I'd also like to know if you place priority on someone being 'American' per se, or is it upon their specific personal philosophy and beliefs?
> 
> Incidentally, Corrie wasn't 'protesting the settlements' - and have you ever read the Israeli courts' findings on the case?



the same can be said, but very much more so, for those on the other side of the fence whenh palestinians are referred to as arabs, muslims, and etc, mags.

aristotle's comment was innocuous compared to the plethora of similar gaffs madr by zionists about palestinians, yet you never seem to comment on those, at least as far as i have seen.

why is that?


----------



## Londoner

*A very interesting shift in our attitude toward Israel and Jews seems to have taken place after WWII*. Prior to WWII anti-semitism was extremely common, especially on the Right which is heavily Christian. If you research the longstanding anti-semitism in Europe - we're talking centuries - than you should be able to understand why it was so widespread, and adopted by otherwise rational people.

*Henry Ford and Interwar Anti-semitism in the USA*
A great way to trace the evolution of anti-semitism in the USA is to look at the Republican Party, starting with Henry Ford during the interwar period. Read his famous book "The International Jew" and you will see the attitude which was widespread on the Right. (Again: this should not be hard to understand, especially if you research the longstanding conflict between Christians and Jews in Europe).

*The postwar shift*
After WWII, Israel became an absolutely vital asset to America's burgeoning role as a global superpower. Given its energy resources, the Middle East is indisputably the world's most important region. No other event could sink the global and/or American economy quicker than instability in the Middle East.

So, in many way Israel became a satellite of the U.S. out of necessity. You can see this not only in the tremendous financial and military support, but also in the behavior of the U.S. surrounding any attempt to go back to the pre-67 borders. Indeed, any attempt to create a peaceful end to the conflict has been blocked.* A peaceful resolution to this conflict would reduce the need for US involvement going forward.* Therefore, from a geopolitical standpoint, it is not in the interest of the US to allow a peaceful resolution. (This is where Carter and Reagan split. Carter wanted a peaceful resolution followed by the US shedding its Middle East assets and withdrawing from the region - in concert with a "moonshot" around energy independence. Reagan, who had a petroleum forward energy policy, did not want a resolution to the conflict. He wanted the instability as a context for US involvement in the region. *This was also his strategy during the Cold War. The conflict with the Soviets was vital to US intervention in the 3rd world, which was a gold mine of natural resources and cheap labor, both of which are necessary for capital investment.* When he started to partner with Gorby to unwind the conflict, the neocons went crazy . . .  until they replaced the Cold War with the War on Terrorism as the context for US intervention. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is fundamental to the War on Terror, and the US can't dismantle it anymore than it could dismantle the Cold War).

As the USA started to heavily influence Israeli politics - and as some prominent American Jews began to enter Defense agencies ("neocons"), there was an attitude-shift in the GOP. Anti-semitism got slowly pushed into the "back rooms". Today we see only a small clusters of Anti-semitism on the Right, like Holocaust Deniers and Neo-Nazi groups. In the front of the house, however, the GOP has a very strict ideology of promoting Israel. You see narratives of good versus evil papering over something very complex and messy. The USA has a very complex history of Anti-semitism. Most people don't realize that Jews were not allowed into many country clubs - and they don't know when this started to change and why. It's almost impossible to respond to this thread without sorting through some history and trying to pinpoint when it became impossible to criticize Israel and why.

I personally side with the Jewish and Palestinian _people_ over their _leaders_. The State of Israel, like Hussein when he was backed by Reagan and initially GHWB, gets away with a lot of terror. This has pushed Palestine to the Right, giving homegrown terror networks like Hamas more power. The result is that the radical parts of both sides are in power, which prolongs the conflict and makes it hard to untangle the mess. Gaza, however, seems pretty clear. The US should allow Israel to go back to the pre-67 borders (but a US leader would have a harder time accomplishing this than Kennedy had ending Vietnam and dismantling the CIA). Anyway, I see the OP's point. It's very hard to defend Israel in this.

*The average American voter looks at something like the Iranian Revolution (and Ayatollah Khomeini) with disgust.* This disgust is uneducated. The reason Iran moved so radically Right into homegrown terror networks was because the US and Britain replaced the democratically elected and wildly popular Mosaddeq with the brutal Hussein-like Shaw. This was done because Mosaddeq would not "play ball" with western energy needs, preferring instead to control his own resources in the same way an Iowa farmer controls his corn. So, of course, when a superpower tinkers with the destiny of region, there are going to be many unintended consequences. 

The US might have been acting with good intentions when it supported regime change in Iran (and a host of other Middle Eastern nations). But "good intentions" and Big Government don't always create the best outcome.

To my friends out there in message board land.

Here is a study from the Right-leaning Cato Institute. Read me.

Here is a great course by the Teaching Company, also slightly Right-leaning. Go here.

*If you study this stuff, you'll be less inclined to depend on simplistic bumper stickers. You might discover better arguments for the conclusions you've been fed, or you might have to entertain some messy complexities. Either way, it's probably worth getting a little more detail.*


----------



## Billo_Really

jillian said:


> i'm looking for real answers about why there is a difference in the standard by which israel is judged as opposed to other countries that defend their borders.


There's no difference in the standard, Israel has violated IHL over 200 times.  As far as defending its borders, other country's don't occupy land that isn't there's.  Other country's don't have over 700 roadblocks and checkpoints in someone else's country restricting the movement of their citizens.  Other country's don't have an economic blockade on a population of 1.5 million people, preventing them from exporting products to the world market.  Other country's don't rountinely conduct air strikes, extrajudicial assasinations and shoot at the fisherman across their borders.


----------



## Billo_Really

jillian said:


> this idea that terrorists won't be terrorists if you're nice to them is pathetic.


Treating all of them, like they're terrorists, is pathetic.

What does shooting at their fisherman and farmers have to do with terrorism or Israeli security?




jillian said:


> and they should stop sending missiles into israel and focus on actually pretending they're ready to govern themselves.


The problem is, Israel doesn't like the government they elected and keeps shooting them.  So how can you govern yourselves, when your neighbor keeps killing your elected leaders?


----------



## MHunterB

Gee, for someone who cares so incredibly much how other people refer to third parties - the poster above a3:38 PM is the one and only poster who can't seem to get my nic right after I've had to ask no less than three times.

I'm beginning to feel that it's due to passive-aggressive issues rather than being slow or having a poor memory.......


----------



## MHunterB

Londoner, has it occurred to you that Professor Salim Yakub might possibly have some tiny bit of prejudice regarding the topic of US ME policy?   Having familiarized myself somewhat with his body of work, I don't think objectivity is his longest suit......


----------



## Londoner

MHunterB said:


> Londoner, has it occurred to you that Professor Salim Yakub might possibly have some tiny bit of prejudice regarding the topic of US ME policy?   Having familiarized myself somewhat with his body of work, I don't think objectivity is his longest suit......



He is a very popular professor at UCSB, and most of his stuff is insanely dry.

 I have no doubt that you can find pieces of his scholarship that are open to debate - and I have no doubt that he has some predispositions lurking beneath the facts he chooses to emphasize - but the scholarship I referenced was unsatisfying to me precisely because I felt like he went out of his way not to adopt a negative stance toward US Involvement in the region. (Perhaps he is more 'opinionated' in his other work)

In this particular treatment of the Middle East, he is more supportive of Reagan than Carter (for instance). He also lobs praise on Eisenhower for effectively containing Arab Nationalism. He treats Kissinger slightly less favorably - almost praising him for driving a wedge between Egypt and the Soviets, but also noting that this made Arab/US relations more embittered and complex. He's also a member of the Woodrow Wilson Center which is far more centrist than say the AEI on the Right or Brookings on the Left. I tend to follow a lot of the CATO thinkers as well, which is largely hostile to the Left on economic issues.


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> Gee, for someone who cares so incredibly much how other people refer to third parties - the poster above a3:38 PM is the one and only poster who can't seem to get my nic right after I've had to ask no less than three times.
> 
> I'm beginning to feel that it's due to passive-aggressive issues rather than being slow or having a poor memory.......



not at all, maggie. i'm irish and our only margs are beef to the heels aunts who smoke too much, drink like fish, and head down to the parish school's cafeteria after evening mass on first fridays to play bingo. 

you are way too hot for that...you sizzle, mamacita...YEEEEOW!!!!

our "maggies" are sweet but hot tempered. they have a certain je ne sais quoi...they know things...like they know the boyos like girls in stockings and garter belts for the facility and their teasing blush for the innocence.

try to think of it like the word "goy" or "goyim". now i know you don't use it, but you stick up for those who do and defend its usage, even though i, and most of the gentiles, object.

but OK...if it is "marg" ye want, it is "marg" ye shall get, but i will never think of you the same again.


----------



## Aristotle

MHunterB said:


> Aristotle, your reply seems very confused to me.   I haven't got the patience just now to tease it all apart and try explaining over again.
> 
> I understand that you have strong feelings against 'right winger religious extremists' - what you don' seem to realize is that I AGREE with you about those individuals.
> 
> You seem unaware that 'questioning the Holocaust' is a crime in Canada, Germany, and quite a few nations but NOT! in the US.  Of course it isn't 'questioning'  anyway:  it's *denying*  the very well-documented fact that the Nazis deliberately initiated and pursued a policy of genocide and mass murders against many groups wherever they ruled.  'Investigating' is all very well and good - but the 'historical investigations' of such as Irving and Zundel are about as scientific and as intellectually honest as 'creation science *ministries*'  efforts.
> 
> And the end goal of such 'questioning' has been - in every single iteration I've seen in the past 50 years! - to seek to exonerate the Nazi party and its philosophy from the many crimes it committed.  *'Questioning the Holocaust' = 'Nazi Apologtics'.*
> 
> And the US does tolerate such shameful and debased speech, yes.  However, while anyone can say just about anything - there can be no law requiring others to not be disgusted by such speech.




Let me be clear in fact, let me write it in caps so you understand:

AMERICA SHOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH ISRAEL.

ISRAEL IS ON ITS OWN IN MY VIEW IF THEY (ISRAELIS) BELIEVE ISRAEL IS INDESTRUCTIBLE. ISRAEL IS A HATED COUNTRY


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually save those remarks to the Palestinians. Israel is no different than Hamas in fact, Israel is worse than Hamas. I have never been to Israel but have seen pictures from college buddies and all I can say is Israel looks a lot nicer than Palestine the place looks like a freggin slum. Those people live in worse conditions.
> 
> No wonder Israeli soldiers wear their M16 everywhere they go....
> 
> The Likud Party in my opinion doesn't want peace. The people who are vocal are hateful Israelis who want to maintain victimhood who shooting down palestinians and my countrymen.
> 
> My hatred for Israel is at the level of Palestinians but if I was a poor palestinian who lost a mother to a rocket intended for a Hamas figure and my family receive no recompensation for this "collateral damage" as the Israelies say, believe me I would join Hamas as well and do what I can to exterminate as many "Yahudis" as I could.
> 
> 
> When will the Jews say ENOUGH to bloodshed? You act like the entire Palestinian people are terrorist. No, they are angry and full of rage and are likely to be recruited by terrorist organizations because these organizations can find a surplus of expendable soldiers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You say you have never been in Israel. your knowledge comes from what...books? pictures? that's what you say.
> 
> So basically, you know jack.
> 
> Good to know we're getting somewhere.
> 
> Those people live in worse conditions. And why is that,? Doesn't your government give the Palestinians TONS of money? Where does that money go to?
> 
> You say Likud doesn't want peace.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Peace is just a second to life. If we can make peace, sure why not. But let us not worship peace in a manner that we bury our families in its sake.
> 
> Your hatred of Israel comes from IGNORANCE, my friend. you say yourself your source of knowledge is very narrow.
> 
> You say if you would have been a palestinian who lost a loved one you would have joined the hate cyrcle.
> 
> So tell me, out of your deep "understanding", what is Tamar Fogel supposed to feel? What is Nahlah Pass supposed to feel? Are only the "Palestinians" with the right to feel rage, or anger?
> 
> Doesn't Osher Twitto have the right to feel revenge? Don't the children of the Haimof family? The schevischorder brothers?
> 
> Your critisicsm if anything, should be directed at both Israel and "Palestine" because we both screwed up since the beginning of the conflict.
> 
> You can also ask the Hamas or Hezbollah, if they aren't yet tired of bloodshed. Why is your hate onlytargeted toward Israel is beyond me.
> 
> It is about time that both Palestinians and Israelis decide we're all fed up with the current situation
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's discuss where my knowledge of Israel comes from....
> 
> Since I was a philosophy major I studied extensive readings on Moses Maimonides and "Mish'nah Torah" along with his book "The Guide for the Perplexed"
> 
> My political knowlefge comes from following the Mid East crisis since the Clinton Administration. Aside from that I have several friends from Israel who I have befriended. I know one personally who was heavily into Hamas philosophy until he came to school out here. Giving Israel the benefit of doubt I decided one day to venture to a Sheol and see what is Judaism and Israel about (I find Israel walks hand in hand with Judaism) I was turned away both times. I was once told by a Rabbi that its prohibited for me to learn Jewish teachings.
> 
> 
> So if a little ole guy like me is turned away because I cannot satisfy my curiousity to learn I can imagine what my Arab friends felt as they shared stories of their loved ones being killed and being discriminated against for being Arab.
> 
> Lemme see, hmm I know we give Israel tens of million (if not hundreds) of dollars, majority of it is military based. The aid we give to Palestine is not nearly enough.
> 
> What else do I know about Israel? I know its a racist state that is in love with its own victimhood. If I could I'd spit on the wailing wall.
Click to expand...


So basically you know jack.

You thought that Israel is all about religion, was turned down by a Rabbi which told you that since you're no Jew there is no reason whatsoever to study Judaism, and based your thinking of listening to the Arab side only.

Yes, as I said before, your opinion is based on ignorance.

You know NOTHING.


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't. I lost all respect for this Israel's right to defend itself when an American protester was ran over by a bulldozer and Israel did freggin nothing. Actually my hatred was compounded after that. When I read independent news and see Palestinian kids being pulled out of rubble and considered "collateral damage" it sickens me.
> 
> All this talk about the Holy Land and God and yet Israel has no problen killing children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Af for an American who has no connection to either side, you're terribly one sided.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again I was neutral until I had unfortunate collective experiences that shifted my opinion. Look at your freggin signature your one to talk. Palestinians were in that land longer than the Jewish. exodus prior to the 1900's and you say Arabs occupied your land?
Click to expand...


Collective experience? Because a Rabbi gave you the brush off? It sounds completely childish.

It's like saying all Gentiles are evil bcause one shaved-head looked at my funny 10 years ago.

You gotta be joking.


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't. I lost all respect for this Israel's right to defend itself when an American protester was ran over by a bulldozer and Israel did freggin nothing. Actually my hatred was compounded after that. When I read independent news and see Palestinian kids being pulled out of rubble and considered "collateral damage" it sickens me.
> 
> All this talk about the Holy Land and God and yet Israel has no problen killing children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Af for an American who has no connection to either side, you're terribly one sided.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again I was neutral until I had unfortunate collective experiences that shifted my opinion. Look at your freggin signature your one to talk. Palestinians were in that land longer than the Jewish. exodus prior to the 1900's and you say Arabs occupied your land?
Click to expand...


I will tell you the same story I told others. My family lived in Israel since the end of the 1800's, when the word "Palestinian" was not an issue, those were the Jews and Arabs of the land called "the territory of Falestina".

They had a ranch, they had orphan Arab teens which used to work there. My family gave them food, warm beds, work, security. But when the Arab carnage began in 1929, the same kids my family sheltered, brought their Hooligans of people, burned down the ranch, stole property, and my family was forced to leave.

They ended up occupying OUR LAND, not the other way around. No one can repair the injustice which was made to us.

We want what we had. There is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## MikeK

MHunterB said:


> Aristotle, your reply seems very confused to me.   I haven't got the patience just now to tease it all apart and try explaining over again.


Either you have a response to Aristotle's comments or you don't.  You have enough time for the following constructions, so this redundancy is pointless.  



> You seem unaware that 'questioning the Holocaust' is a crime in Canada, Germany, and quite a few nations but NOT! in the US.


Actually very few Americans are aware of that specific speech constraint in Canada and Germany, as well as France, Australia, Austria, Hungary, Luxembourg, et. al., and more nations are gradually added as the Holocaust propaganda machinery moves methodically forward.  And I consider this blatant assault on the exercise of free speech to be a goddam shame.  

For a nation to forbid its citizens to publicly question something is not only fascistic in the extreme, it is an insult to the human brain.  It is equal to denying the right to question the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.  And were it not for our beloved First Amendment I have no doubt that questioning so-called Holocaust assertions would be a Class A felony here in the U.S.

Do I deny that large numbers of Jews, along with other categories, were subjected to a brutally murderous pogrom by the Third Reich?  No.  I do not.  There is ample evidence to support that crime against humanity.  But if I didn't believe it why should I not have the right to express my disbelief?  Such a proscription is something one might expect to exist in a place like Hitler Germany.



> Of course it isn't 'questioning'  anyway:  it's *denying*  the very well-documented fact that the Nazis deliberately initiated and pursued a policy of genocide and mass murders against many groups wherever they ruled.  'Investigating' is all very well and good - but the 'historical investigations' of such as Irving and Zundel are about as scientific and as intellectually honest as 'creation science *ministries*'  efforts.


_Holocaust denial_ is to say the Pogrom didn't happen, which is fanatical nonsense.  But all criticism of and inquiry into the most typical presentations of _Holocaust_ legend is not necessarily Holocaust _denial._  There are those who do not deny the Pogrom took place but who question the accuracy and integrity of certain claims associated with that event.  And while _Holocaust_ publicists will refer to any question directed at typical reports on and descriptions of the Pogrom as "Holocaust denial" the fact is some questions have a legitimate basis and are more appropriately refered to as _revision_ rather than "denial."  

One such example is the widely circulated report of Jewish corpses being rendered in Nazi concentration camps to make soap.  I recall hearing this repulsive legend many times beginning when I was a schoolboy and how it, along with other reports, caused me to feel uneasy about my paternal German lineage.  But the infamous tale has been credibly debunked, as reported by the staff of the Illinoil Holocaust Museum.  Illinois Holocaust Museum & Education Center 

The legend is thus revised.  And the point to be considered is if this long-held belief has turned out to be fabricated how much more of the legend is equally false?  Without questions we will never know.  Revision is not denial.  



> And the end goal of such 'questioning' has been - in every single iteration I've seen in the past 50 years! - to seek to exonerate the Nazi party and its philosophy from the many crimes it committed.  *'Questioning the Holocaust' = 'Nazi Apologtics'.*


While that might be true in some examples it certainly is not true in any example where the research is preceded by commentary which clearly establishes that a pogrom took place.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Aristotle said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we would just stop fucking with them, they wouldn't want to fly planes into our buildings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes but its also hypocritical to forget that Christians want everyone to come to Christ.
> 
> Why do you think they have organizations like "The Red Cross" missionaries, etc..
Click to expand...


There's a VAST difference between;
Convert or I'll kill you
and
Would you like to convert?

It's not hypocritical to know the difference


----------



## Againsheila

Aristotle said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle, your reply seems very confused to me.   I haven't got the patience just now to tease it all apart and try explaining over again.
> 
> I understand that you have strong feelings against 'right winger religious extremists' - what you don' seem to realize is that I AGREE with you about those individuals.
> 
> You seem unaware that 'questioning the Holocaust' is a crime in Canada, Germany, and quite a few nations but NOT! in the US.  Of course it isn't 'questioning'  anyway:  it's *denying*  the very well-documented fact that the Nazis deliberately initiated and pursued a policy of genocide and mass murders against many groups wherever they ruled.  'Investigating' is all very well and good - but the 'historical investigations' of such as Irving and Zundel are about as scientific and as intellectually honest as 'creation science *ministries*'  efforts.
> 
> And the end goal of such 'questioning' has been - in every single iteration I've seen in the past 50 years! - to seek to exonerate the Nazi party and its philosophy from the many crimes it committed.  *'Questioning the Holocaust' = 'Nazi Apologtics'.*
> 
> And the US does tolerate such shameful and debased speech, yes.  However, while anyone can say just about anything - there can be no law requiring others to not be disgusted by such speech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me be clear in fact, let me write it in caps so you understand:
> 
> AMERICA SHOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH ISRAEL.
> 
> ISRAEL IS ON ITS OWN IN MY VIEW IF THEY (ISRAELIS) BELIEVE ISRAEL IS INDESTRUCTIBLE. ISRAEL IS A HATED COUNTRY
Click to expand...


Yeah, Israel, a Jewish country is hated by every other country in the middle east (Muslim countries), in fact, no other Arab country even has Israel on the map.  Without the help of the USA, Israel would cease to exist.  I'm sure that's your goal, though I don't know why.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Againsheila said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle, your reply seems very confused to me.   I haven't got the patience just now to tease it all apart and try explaining over again.
> 
> I understand that you have strong feelings against 'right winger religious extremists' - what you don' seem to realize is that I AGREE with you about those individuals.
> 
> You seem unaware that 'questioning the Holocaust' is a crime in Canada, Germany, and quite a few nations but NOT! in the US.  Of course it isn't 'questioning'  anyway:  it's *denying*  the very well-documented fact that the Nazis deliberately initiated and pursued a policy of genocide and mass murders against many groups wherever they ruled.  'Investigating' is all very well and good - but the 'historical investigations' of such as Irving and Zundel are about as scientific and as intellectually honest as 'creation science *ministries*'  efforts.
> 
> And the end goal of such 'questioning' has been - in every single iteration I've seen in the past 50 years! - to seek to exonerate the Nazi party and its philosophy from the many crimes it committed.  *'Questioning the Holocaust' = 'Nazi Apologtics'.*
> 
> And the US does tolerate such shameful and debased speech, yes.  However, while anyone can say just about anything - there can be no law requiring others to not be disgusted by such speech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me be clear in fact, let me write it in caps so you understand:
> 
> AMERICA SHOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH ISRAEL.
> 
> ISRAEL IS ON ITS OWN IN MY VIEW IF THEY (ISRAELIS) BELIEVE ISRAEL IS INDESTRUCTIBLE. ISRAEL IS A HATED COUNTRY
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, Israel, a Jewish country is hated by every other country in the middle east (Muslim countries), in fact, no other Arab country even has Israel on the map.  Without the help of the USA, Israel would cease to exist.  I'm sure that's your goal, though I don't know why.
Click to expand...




> no other Arab country even has Israel on the map.



Maps are drawings of borders. Israel doesn't have any borders.


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say you have never been in Israel. your knowledge comes from what...books? pictures? that's what you say.
> 
> So basically, you know jack.
> 
> Good to know we're getting somewhere.
> 
> Those people live in worse conditions. And why is that,? Doesn't your government give the Palestinians TONS of money? Where does that money go to?
> 
> You say Likud doesn't want peace.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Peace is just a second to life. If we can make peace, sure why not. But let us not worship peace in a manner that we bury our families in its sake.
> 
> Your hatred of Israel comes from IGNORANCE, my friend. you say yourself your source of knowledge is very narrow.
> 
> You say if you would have been a palestinian who lost a loved one you would have joined the hate cyrcle.
> 
> So tell me, out of your deep "understanding", what is Tamar Fogel supposed to feel? What is Nahlah Pass supposed to feel? Are only the "Palestinians" with the right to feel rage, or anger?
> 
> Doesn't Osher Twitto have the right to feel revenge? Don't the children of the Haimof family? The schevischorder brothers?
> 
> Your critisicsm if anything, should be directed at both Israel and "Palestine" because we both screwed up since the beginning of the conflict.
> 
> You can also ask the Hamas or Hezbollah, if they aren't yet tired of bloodshed. Why is your hate onlytargeted toward Israel is beyond me.
> 
> It is about time that both Palestinians and Israelis decide we're all fed up with the current situation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's discuss where my knowledge of Israel comes from....
> 
> Since I was a philosophy major I studied extensive readings on Moses Maimonides and "Mish'nah Torah" along with his book "The Guide for the Perplexed"
> 
> My political knowlefge comes from following the Mid East crisis since the Clinton Administration. Aside from that I have several friends from Israel who I have befriended. I know one personally who was heavily into Hamas philosophy until he came to school out here. Giving Israel the benefit of doubt I decided one day to venture to a Sheol and see what is Judaism and Israel about (I find Israel walks hand in hand with Judaism) I was turned away both times. I was once told by a Rabbi that its prohibited for me to learn Jewish teachings.
> 
> 
> So if a little ole guy like me is turned away because I cannot satisfy my curiousity to learn I can imagine what my Arab friends felt as they shared stories of their loved ones being killed and being discriminated against for being Arab.
> 
> Lemme see, hmm I know we give Israel tens of million (if not hundreds) of dollars, majority of it is military based. The aid we give to Palestine is not nearly enough.
> 
> What else do I know about Israel? I know its a racist state that is in love with its own victimhood. If I could I'd spit on the wailing wall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So basically you know jack.
> 
> You thought that Israel is all about religion, was turned down by a Rabbi which told you that since you're no Jew there is no reason whatsoever to study Judaism, and based your thinking of listening to the Arab side only.
> 
> Yes, as I said before, your opinion is based on ignorance.
> 
> You know NOTHING.
Click to expand...



Ah yes seeing what you only want to see, such a typical trait that exist in Israel. My opinion is based on a collective experience. I have personal friends who've shared stories of living in Israel. I have seen Jews have this entitlement attitude. I have also read reafings of Jews who feel that Israel does not need America. I have had the unfortunate Rabbi experience and many more. 

The only reason why Israel exist is because of the United States. Without U.S intercession, Israel would be at war with not just the Arab countries but also countries the covertly support Arab countries. Israel is not a liked country why don't you understand that? It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Af for an American who has no connection to either side, you're terribly one sided.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again I was neutral until I had unfortunate collective experiences that shifted my opinion. Look at your freggin signature your one to talk. Palestinians were in that land longer than the Jewish. exodus prior to the 1900's and you say Arabs occupied your land?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I will tell you the same story I told others. My family lived in Israel since the end of the 1800's, when the word "Palestinian" was not an issue, those were the Jews and Arabs of the land called "the territory of Falestina".
> 
> They had a ranch, they had orphan Arab teens which used to work there. My family gave them food, warm beds, work, security. But when the Arab carnage began in 1929, the same kids my family sheltered, brought their Hooligans of people, burned down the ranch, stole property, and my family was forced to leave.
> 
> They ended up occupying OUR LAND, not the other way around. No one can repair the injustice which was made to us.
> 
> We want what we had. There is nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...


Complain complain complain.....

I have no sympathy for your back story.....


----------



## Aristotle

Againsheila said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle, your reply seems very confused to me.   I haven't got the patience just now to tease it all apart and try explaining over again.
> 
> I understand that you have strong feelings against 'right winger religious extremists' - what you don' seem to realize is that I AGREE with you about those individuals.
> 
> You seem unaware that 'questioning the Holocaust' is a crime in Canada, Germany, and quite a few nations but NOT! in the US.  Of course it isn't 'questioning'  anyway:  it's *denying*  the very well-documented fact that the Nazis deliberately initiated and pursued a policy of genocide and mass murders against many groups wherever they ruled.  'Investigating' is all very well and good - but the 'historical investigations' of such as Irving and Zundel are about as scientific and as intellectually honest as 'creation science *ministries*'  efforts.
> 
> And the end goal of such 'questioning' has been - in every single iteration I've seen in the past 50 years! - to seek to exonerate the Nazi party and its philosophy from the many crimes it committed.  *'Questioning the Holocaust' = 'Nazi Apologtics'.*
> 
> And the US does tolerate such shameful and debased speech, yes.  However, while anyone can say just about anything - there can be no law requiring others to not be disgusted by such speech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me be clear in fact, let me write it in caps so you understand:
> 
> AMERICA SHOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH ISRAEL.
> 
> ISRAEL IS ON ITS OWN IN MY VIEW IF THEY (ISRAELIS) BELIEVE ISRAEL IS INDESTRUCTIBLE. ISRAEL IS A HATED COUNTRY
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, Israel, a Jewish country is hated by every other country in the middle east (Muslim countries), in fact, no other Arab country even has Israel on the map.  Without the help of the USA, Israel would cease to exist.  I'm sure that's your goal, though I don't know why.
Click to expand...


Not just Arab countries.....

Russia, Poland to name a few have been known to have supported the Arab cause


----------



## Aristotle

Two Thumbs said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they would.  They want Islam to take over the world.  In order to do that, they either have to convert or kill the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but its also hypocritical to forget that Christians want everyone to come to Christ.
> 
> Why do you think they have organizations like "The Red Cross" missionaries, etc..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's a VAST difference between;
> Convert or I'll kill you
> and
> Would you like to convert?
> 
> It's not hypocritical to know the difference
Click to expand...


And Christians don't kill? Let's see, right wing nut jobs that bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors because they are doing a sin against God doesn't ring a bell? 

Or Christians who infiltrate Muslim populated countries masquerading as Muslims then upon teaching religious doctrine somehow heavily discuss the importance of "Isa" Christians are no different than Muslims the only difference is not enough press shows this. Thanks to 9/11 everything a Muslim does is terrorist overlooking what Christians have done for centuries.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

Aristotle said:


> It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.



if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??


----------



## Billo_Really

Two Thumbs said:


> There's a VAST difference between;
> Convert or I'll kill you
> and
> Would you like to convert?
> 
> It's not hypocritical to know the difference


And it's lunacy to think after your neighborhood just got leveled to the ground from an air strike, killing your entire family, then turning on the news to hear leaders of other country's saying that's _"your fault"_ they bombed you back to the stone age, that you're more enraged about what was written in some book, than what just happened to your life!


----------



## Billo_Really

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
Click to expand...

Israel should act in accordance with international law.

Period.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

loinboy said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel should act in accordance with international law.
> 
> Period.
Click to expand...


of course that would be stupid since the Arabs want to destroy Israel and could care less about international law.


----------



## hjmick

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
Click to expand...


Peaceful solution? Doesn't matter. The Israelis could give the Palestinians everything they wanted and the rest of the Arab world would instantly find something else to bomb them over... The Palestinian people are an easy and ready excuse for the Irans of the world to fund a proxy war against Israel. If any of those peaceful Muslim countries had any real interest in peace it would be easy enough for them to provide land to live on for the Palestinians...


----------



## Aristotle

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
> 
> 
> 
> Israel should act in accordance with international law.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> of course that would be stupid since the Arabs want to destroy Israel and could care less about international law.
Click to expand...


Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?

Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

hjmick said:


> Peaceful solution? Doesn't matter. .



dear, every journey starts with one step. Your formula is for perpetual war. Care to rethink??


----------



## Aristotle

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
Click to expand...


Here is my solution.

The United States threaten Israel with a cut in alliance and reduction of aid if they cannot come to a peaceful solution. As for the Palestinians do the opposite. Ofder aid in the form of medical supplies and reconstruction of buildings under the condition that all hostile oeganizations ceasefire on Israeli settlements. 

But this wont happen.

Israel and Palestine are too similar, they want to be right and want to be the biggest victim. Peace will not happen until the sky wizard comes back.


----------



## High_Gravity

loinboy said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel should act in accordance with international law.
> 
> Period.
Click to expand...


Is it ok under international law to lob missiles at your nieghbors?


----------



## jillian

High_Gravity said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
> 
> 
> 
> Israel should act in accordance with international law.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it ok under international law to lob missiles at your nieghbors?
Click to expand...


watch him say they're not a nation so aren't subject to international law.


----------



## jillian

Aristotle said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is my solution.
> 
> The United States threaten Israel with a cut in alliance and reduction of aid if they cannot come to a peaceful solution. As for the Palestinians do the opposite. Ofder aid in the form of medical supplies and reconstruction of buildings under the condition that all hostile oeganizations ceasefire on Israeli settlements.
> 
> But this wont happen.
> 
> Israel and Palestine are too similar, they want to be right and want to be the biggest victim. Peace will not happen until the sky wizard comes back.
Click to expand...


the palestinians already get billions from us.

you might want to rethink that.

israel doesn't really need incentive for peace. they want peace. what they need is a partner who wants peace.

hamas isn't it.


----------



## Billo_Really

High_Gravity said:


> Is it ok under international law to lob missiles at your nieghbors?


No it is not.  Indescriminate weapons, are war crimes.  That's what Hamas is doing wrong.  They need to stop that shit to.  But we also need to put things into perspective, Israel is the aggressor, not the victim.  

Is it right for the IDF to shoot at Palestinian fisherman and farmers for target practice?  Or have over 700 checkpoints on land that isn't yours?


----------



## Billo_Really

jillian said:


> watch him say they're not a nation so aren't subject to international law.


Why would I say that?

Wishful thinking on your part?


----------



## Billo_Really

jillian said:


> the palestinians already get billions from us.
> 
> you might want to rethink that.
> 
> israel doesn't really need incentive for peace. they want peace. what they need is a partner who wants peace.
> 
> hamas isn't it.


If Israel wanted peace, why do they keep violating the ceasefire's? Why do they keep shooting at Palestinian fisherman and farmers?  Why do they continue the 45 year occupation against all international laws?  Why do they continue to commit war crimes with their blockade of Gaza?

A country that continues to do that, does not want peace.


----------



## Billo_Really

Aristotle said:


> Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...


That's the big lie you want everyone to believe.


----------



## Billo_Really

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> of course that would be stupid since the Arabs want to destroy Israel and could care less about international law.


There are over 200 UN Resolutions that say the opposite.


----------



## Aristotle

jillian said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you're all emotional you're probably not worth talking to-right? What do you propose as a peaceful solution or are you too full of hate to even have one??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my solution.
> 
> The United States threaten Israel with a cut in alliance and reduction of aid if they cannot come to a peaceful solution. As for the Palestinians do the opposite. Ofder aid in the form of medical supplies and reconstruction of buildings under the condition that all hostile oeganizations ceasefire on Israeli settlements.
> 
> But this wont happen.
> 
> Israel and Palestine are too similar, they want to be right and want to be the biggest victim. Peace will not happen until the sky wizard comes back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the palestinians already get billions from us.
> 
> you might want to rethink that.
> 
> israel doesn't really need incentive for peace. they want peace. what they need is a partner who wants peace.
> 
> hamas isn't it.
Click to expand...



Israel wants peace? Why did Israel and U.S block the Palestinian request for statehood?


----------



## Aristotle

loinboy said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big lie you want everyone to believe.
Click to expand...


You've never seen kids being killed during Israel offense?


----------



## Billo_Really

Aristotle said:


> You've never seen kids being killed during Israel offense?


I've read the first hand accounts from people who have.


----------



## Aristotle

Here is the big lie I told...lol[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmvP_H5GpA&feature=youtube_gdata_player]Palestinian family killed in Gaza conflict buried - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## GHook93

loinboy said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big lie you want everyone to believe.
Click to expand...



Yep because Arabs like you and PF Tinmore display such a love for the Jews, in your insane extremist antisemitism! How could anyone see it differently!


----------



## High_Gravity

loinboy said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big lie you want everyone to believe.
Click to expand...


So all the Arabs do want to kill the Jews?


----------



## Aristotle

Yes Israel wants peace, one bulldozer at a time:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYAd4TY6YY&feature=youtube_gdata_player]CORRIE KILLING: ISRAELI COURT finds MILITARY not GUILTY for DEATH of Palestinian RIGHTS PROTESTER - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## jillian

i'm sorry... i don't agree with them about that. but would you like to compare it with 1,000 missiles?

i think not.


----------



## Billo_Really

High_Gravity said:


> So all the Arabs do want to kill the Jews?


Do all Laker fans hate Larry Bird?

I'm sure some arabs do, it's quite a stretch to think they all do.


----------



## Billo_Really

jillian said:


> i'm sorry... i don't agree with them about that. but would you like to compare it with 1,000 missiles?
> 
> i think not.


How would you compare that to a 45 year occupation?


----------



## High_Gravity

loinboy said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> So all the Arabs do want to kill the Jews?
> 
> 
> 
> Do all Laker fans hate Larry Bird?
> 
> I'm sure some arabs do, it's quite a stretch to think they all do.
Click to expand...


I don't think they all do.


----------



## Katzndogz

Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.


----------



## High_Gravity

Katzndogz said:


> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.



Yup.


----------



## Billo_Really

Aristotle said:


> Yes Israel wants peace, one bulldozer at a time:
> 
> CORRIE KILLING: ISRAELI COURT finds MILITARY not GUILTY for DEATH of Palestinian RIGHTS PROTESTER - YouTube


Here's an example of Israeli's that do want peace...



> _Jewish Group Deplores Israeli Civil Court Verdict Today in 2003 Death of American Activist Rachel Corrie
> 
> [NEW YORK, August 28, 2012] *Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP)  is deeply disappointed by the verdict read by Judge Oded Gershon this morning in the civil court case brought by the Corrie family against the State of Israel*, which exonerated the state and the army of any responsibility for the killing of their daughter, Rachel Corrie, in 2003.  At the time of her death, Corrie was attempting to defend a civilian home in Rafah, Gaza from demolition.
> 
> This verdict--declaring American peace activist Rachel Corries death to be merely an accident--*reflects the impunity of the Israeli army and the deficient investigation undertaken by Israel after Rachels death*. The U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Dan Shapiro, told the Corrie family last week, ahead of Judge Gershons decision, that Israel's investigation into the death of their daughter was not satisfactory, and wasn't as thorough, credible or transparent as it should have been._


People like these, walk their talk.


----------



## Billo_Really

High_Gravity said:


> Yup.


You cannot attack a hospital under any conditions.  Even if they're firing ICBM's at you, they are off limits!

But that's what the Israeli's always say, better never prove.


----------



## Aristotle

Katzndogz said:


> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.



Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.

It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.


----------



## Billo_Really

Katzndogz said:


> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.


Why is it, you can never provide evidence to prove this?


----------



## Aristotle

loinboy said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Israel wants peace, one bulldozer at a time:
> 
> CORRIE KILLING: ISRAELI COURT finds MILITARY not GUILTY for DEATH of Palestinian RIGHTS PROTESTER - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an example of Israeli's that do want peace...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Jewish Group Deplores Israeli Civil Court Verdict Today in 2003 Death of American Activist Rachel Corrie
> 
> [NEW YORK, August 28, 2012] *Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP)  is deeply disappointed by the verdict read by Judge Oded Gershon this morning in the civil court case brought by the Corrie family against the State of Israel*, which exonerated the state and the army of any responsibility for the killing of their daughter, Rachel Corrie, in 2003.  At the time of her death, Corrie was attempting to defend a civilian home in Rafah, Gaza from demolition.
> 
> This verdict--declaring American peace activist Rachel Corries death to be merely an accident--*reflects the impunity of the Israeli army and the deficient investigation undertaken by Israel after Rachels death*. The U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Dan Shapiro, told the Corrie family last week, ahead of Judge Gershons decision, that Israel's investigation into the death of their daughter was not satisfactory, and wasn't as thorough, credible or transparent as it should have been._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People like these, walk their talk.
Click to expand...


these people are far and few


----------



## sakinago

jillian said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> the question is WHY?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why? Because Israel stole their land in war. It's really very simple. Most of the world does not approve. In Europe the Israeli support is from Germany only, and for obvious reasons. Europe is so wonderful and progressive to our liberals-right??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Historically incorrect and you've proven the fact that there is a double standard.
Click to expand...


Does anyone here actually know the history of Israel, and Palestine? Its very hard to make the claim that Palestine has a right to "their" land over the past century. The whole country of Egypt could have been part of Israel, or at least be decimated by Israel (like most countries including our own would have) but Israel decided to stop. They stopped where their god granted them their land in their scripture. Israel came into existence because of  severe anti-semitism in Europe and beyond, the problems that Israel has with its neighbors are all undeniably rooted in severe anti-semitism

A more fitting metaphor would be if the southern california decided it was no longer a part of the United States and did not want to recognize the US as their government, because the US was Jewish led, and so cal were anti-semites. And Europe supported southern california, and wanted everyone else to recognize them as a state. So the US got pressured into allowing so cal to exist, and so cal still wants to wipe the US of the map but cant (and repeat this statement over and over), so they resort to terrorist attacks. They claim their anger is over territory disputes (that shouldn't even exist), and justify attacking innocent civilians over these disputes; when really, it is because they have been instilled with* hate* through their culture and religion toward other people because they do not follow their god.  

I really do think it is sick that people want to rush in and defend palestines cause and actions and pretend like there is no hate there, but don't really give a damn about defending a government in Africa in a civil war against warlord rebels who kidnap children and get them addicted to heavy drugs, so that the children will fight tooth and nail to get their next fix. 80% of the entire continent of Africa is f-ed up but people would rather harp on Israel over territory disputes with a country  that shouldn't even exist with a majority of hate filled people, mainly because their side of politics would rather harp on Israel while they're getting rockets fired at their civilians left and right.


----------



## sakinago

Katzndogz said:


> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.



Yes, they absolutely do, I am not sure how you could deny this statement. And I am not sure how you could blame Israel for firing back. I dont care how progressive you think you are, if someone is shooting rockets on your town and family and kids, anyone, even the Quakers, would scream at their government to obliterate wherever those rockets are coming from.

Here is another question that is in the same sort of moral category, If we knew the intentions of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 before they hit the towers, would it be justifiable to shoot those planes down and save 1000's of civililian lives through sacrificing a couple hundred civilians lives?


----------



## High_Gravity

sakinago said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they absolutely do, I am not sure how you could deny this statement. And I am not sure how you could blame Israel for firing back. I dont care how progressive you think you are, if someone is shooting rockets on your town and family and kids, anyone, even the Quakers, would scream at their government to obliterate wherever those rockets are coming from.
> 
> Here is another question that is in the same sort of moral category, If we knew the intentions of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 before they hit the towers, would it be justifiable to shoot those planes down and save 1000's of civililian lives through sacrificing a couple hundred civilians lives?
Click to expand...


Good post.


----------



## sealadaigh

High_Gravity said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they absolutely do, I am not sure how you could deny this statement. And I am not sure how you could blame Israel for firing back. I dont care how progressive you think you are, if someone is shooting rockets on your town and family and kids, anyone, even the Quakers, would scream at their government to obliterate wherever those rockets are coming from.
> 
> Here is another question that is in the same sort of moral category, If we knew the intentions of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 before they hit the towers, would it be justifiable to shoot those planes down and save 1000's of civililian lives through sacrificing a couple hundred civilians lives?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good post.
Click to expand...


is it justifiable to bomb a mosque with a weapons cache that is filled with hundreds of worshippers when it could just have easily and effectively been bombed in the middle of the night with no one there.

also, there are many, many cases where hospitals and schools are attacked where there is no weapons cache and no real evidence of a weapons cache. now, i do not use the word "terrorism" exxcept on very rare occasions, but that really is ther essence of terrorism to me and it is particularly heinous because it is being done by a supposedly democratic nation.

no. i am not one of those alarmists who will scream "israel is deliberately targeting civilians", although i am sure some individuaal israelis are, but they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.

in vietnam, you could not just aim a claymore across a path with a trip wire and leave it, even though that path was used by bad guys only. you had to be there in case a kid wandered through. an "i am so sorry for this regretable incident" just doesn't cut it.

and that is not a good question of the same moral category. as usual, zionists make up analogies that do not at all fit the situation.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte

reabhloideach said:


> they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.



Please dont be absurd, they could nuke or fire bomb Gaza as we did to Germany and Japan in WW2

THe solution is for the USA and the world to impose a settlement.


----------



## sealadaigh

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please dont be absurd, they could nuke or fire bomb Gaza as we did to Germany and Japan in WW2
> 
> THe solution is for the USA and the world to impose a settlement.
Click to expand...


no, you don't be absurd. they could not nuke or firebomb gaza because the world would not stand for it.

the solution is for the UN to impose a settlement considering the de facto situation but based upon the original mandated division in UNGA resolution 181.


----------



## Aristotle

reabhloideach said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they absolutely do, I am not sure how you could deny this statement. And I am not sure how you could blame Israel for firing back. I dont care how progressive you think you are, if someone is shooting rockets on your town and family and kids, anyone, even the Quakers, would scream at their government to obliterate wherever those rockets are coming from.
> 
> Here is another question that is in the same sort of moral category, If we knew the intentions of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 before they hit the towers, would it be justifiable to shoot those planes down and save 1000's of civililian lives through sacrificing a couple hundred civilians lives?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> is it justifiable to bomb a mosque with a weapons cache that is filled with hundreds of worshippers when it could just have easily and effectively been bombed in the middle of the night with no one there.
> 
> also, there are many, many cases where hospitals and schools are attacked where there is no weapons cache and no real evidence of a weapons cache. now, i do not use the word "terrorism" exxcept on very rare occasions, but that really is ther essence of terrorism to me and it is particularly heinous because it is being done by a supposedly democratic nation.
> 
> no. i am not one of those alarmists who will scream "israel is deliberately targeting civilians", although i am sure some individuaal israelis are, but they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.
> 
> in vietnam, you could not just aim a claymore across a path with a trip wire and leave it, even though that path was used by bad guys only. you had to be there in case a kid wandered through. an "i am so sorry for this regretable incident" just doesn't cut it.
> 
> and that is not a good question of the same moral category. as usual, zionists make up analogies that do not at all fit the situation.
Click to expand...


This is an excellent point....

I think what people often forget here is that the Palestinians consist of millions of people and those who engage in hostile actions with Israel make up a fraction of that. I'm sure many militant Palestinians do indeed stash a cache of weapons in "political sensitive" areas such as a mosque or cramped areas frequented by civilians. Let us continue to assume that maybe there is an intent by these Palestinian militants to frequent dense populated areas in the hope of civilians being attacked let us assume this hypothetical. If such is the case, I believe Israel has a duty as being militarily superior to avoid hitting non-combatants. I believe the zionist of Israel have the same mentality as Hamas. Both groups are trying to indoctrinate the population with this idea that the other side is trying to impede their way of life. People buy into it, and there you have this endless cycle of finger pointing and saber rattling.


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel should act in accordance with international law.
> 
> Period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> of course that would be stupid since the Arabs want to destroy Israel and could care less about international law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...
Click to expand...


No every single Arab. But most of them.

Have you read the Islamic Hadith?


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's discuss where my knowledge of Israel comes from....
> 
> Since I was a philosophy major I studied extensive readings on Moses Maimonides and "Mish'nah Torah" along with his book "The Guide for the Perplexed"
> 
> My political knowlefge comes from following the Mid East crisis since the Clinton Administration. Aside from that I have several friends from Israel who I have befriended. I know one personally who was heavily into Hamas philosophy until he came to school out here. Giving Israel the benefit of doubt I decided one day to venture to a Sheol and see what is Judaism and Israel about (I find Israel walks hand in hand with Judaism) I was turned away both times. I was once told by a Rabbi that its prohibited for me to learn Jewish teachings.
> 
> 
> So if a little ole guy like me is turned away because I cannot satisfy my curiousity to learn I can imagine what my Arab friends felt as they shared stories of their loved ones being killed and being discriminated against for being Arab.
> 
> Lemme see, hmm I know we give Israel tens of million (if not hundreds) of dollars, majority of it is military based. The aid we give to Palestine is not nearly enough.
> 
> What else do I know about Israel? I know its a racist state that is in love with its own victimhood. If I could I'd spit on the wailing wall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So basically you know jack.
> 
> You thought that Israel is all about religion, was turned down by a Rabbi which told you that since you're no Jew there is no reason whatsoever to study Judaism, and based your thinking of listening to the Arab side only.
> 
> Yes, as I said before, your opinion is based on ignorance.
> 
> You know NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes seeing what you only want to see, such a typical trait that exist in Israel. My opinion is based on a collective experience. I have personal friends who've shared stories of living in Israel. I have seen Jews have this entitlement attitude. I have also read reafings of Jews who feel that Israel does not need America. I have had the unfortunate Rabbi experience and many more.
> 
> The only reason why Israel exist is because of the United States. Without U.S intercession, Israel would be at war with not just the Arab countries but also countries the covertly support Arab countries. Israel is not a liked country why don't you understand that? It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
Click to expand...


"such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.

You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.

"It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".

So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.

It isn't rare, though.

Most haters have the same problem.


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my solution.
> 
> The United States threaten Israel with a cut in alliance and reduction of aid if they cannot come to a peaceful solution. As for the Palestinians do the opposite. Ofder aid in the form of medical supplies and reconstruction of buildings under the condition that all hostile oeganizations ceasefire on Israeli settlements.
> 
> But this wont happen.
> 
> Israel and Palestine are too similar, they want to be right and want to be the biggest victim. Peace will not happen until the sky wizard comes back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the palestinians already get billions from us.
> 
> you might want to rethink that.
> 
> israel doesn't really need incentive for peace. they want peace. what they need is a partner who wants peace.
> 
> hamas isn't it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Israel wants peace? Why did Israel and U.S block the Palestinian request for statehood?
Click to expand...


Because they did it in spite of the Israeli-Palestinian agreement not to pull the rug under the Israeli feet. Duh.


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.
> 
> It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.
Click to expand...


You don't care where Hamas hides missiles?

You're one blinded guy, aren't you! if Hamas hides the missiles inside schools, kindergardens, houses, hospitals, THEY and only THEY are to be blamed if innocent people are killed.

Israel won't sacrifice its own kids in sake of Hamas' hopes that Israel won't strike! That's wicked to put Israel at that position to start with!


----------



## jillian

Aristotle said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.
> 
> It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.
Click to expand...


that is ridiculous. israel has every right to defend itself from rockets. and if hamas doesn't care about it's own people, which, indeed, does violate international law, then it isn't something israel can help.

they're still entitled to get rid of those missiles.

unless you think it's ok for israel to be bombed constantly.

which, and i thank you, proves the double standard of your own biases.


----------



## jillian

Lipush said:


> That's wicked to put Israel at that position to start with!



we're talking about terrorist supporters.

it's not surprising.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it, you can never provide evidence to prove this?
Click to expand...


Here is your evidence.

Look at the place from which they launch their rockets:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SCjHxrg8X8]Hamas firing rockets from populated area - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## sealadaigh

Lipush said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it, you can never provide evidence to prove this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is your evidence.
> 
> Look at the place from which they launch their rockets:
> 
> (lipush posted three vids. see prior post above.)
Click to expand...


help me out here, lippy...

are any of these legitimate target IDF bases in or near civilian populated areas...

Northern Command 
Camp Dotan Pardes Hanna-Karkur 
Machne Yarden Golan Heights 
Camp Filon Golan Heights 
Haifa naval base Haifa 
Naval Training Base Haifa 
Atlit naval base near Atlit 
Prison Six near Atlit 
Havat HaShomer Training Base near Ilaniya 
Biranit Galilee 
Ramat David Airbase near Ramat David 
Air Force Technical College Haifa 
Michve Alon near Safed 
Camp Tzalmon near Karmiel 
Camp Gibor near Kiryat Shmona 
Ein Shemer Airfield near Ein Shemer 
Eilabun Nuclear Facility near Eilabun 
Camp Jalame Haifa 
Camp Yitzhak Golan Heights 
Mount Avital SIGINT base Mount Avital 
Château Pèlerin near Haifa 
Manachim Airbase Rosh Pinna 
Shomera Armory Shomera 


Central Command 
Camp Anatot near Jerusalem 
Camp Bar Lev near Kiryat Malakhi 
Camp Glilot near Herzliya 
National Defense College near Herzliya 
Unit 8200 Headquarters Herzliya 
Camp Immanuel near Kiryat Malakhi 
Camp Mordechay Maklef Ramat Gan 
Camp Rabin Tel Aviv 
Camp 1391 near Tel Aviv 
Palmachim Airbase near Yavne 
Sde Dov Airbase Tel Aviv 
Sdot Micha Airbase near Zekharia 
Tel Nof Airbase near Gedera 
Camp Yigael Yadin Tzrifin 
Camp Yaakov Dori Tel HaShomer 
Camp Yoav near Kiryat Malakhi 
Camp Mota Gur near Kfar Yona 
Ofrit base Jerusalem 
Bahad 8 Netanya 
Hatzor Airbase near Hatzor 
Tirosh Nuclear Facility near Tirosh 
Sirkin base near Kfar Sirkin 
Mitkan Adam near Modi'in-Maccabim-Re'ut 
Lod Airbase Lod 


Southern Command 
Ashdod naval base Ashdod 
Eilat naval base Eilat 
Camp Haim Laskov near Mitzpe Ramon 
Hatzerim Airbase near Hatzerim 
Camp Iftach near Zikim 
Camp Lahav near Nitzana 
Nevatim Airbase near Nevatim 
Camp Nitzanim near Nitzanim 
Camp Yehoshua near Nitzanim 
Ovda Airbase near Eilat 
Ramon Airbase near Sde Boker 
Bahad 4 near Zikim 
Sde Boker base near Sde Boker 
Re'im base near Re'im 
Nahal Oz base near Nahal Oz 
Camp Nathan near Beersheba 
Ketziot prison camp near Beersheba 
Shizafon base Negev 
Southern Infantry Training Base near Beersheba 
Julis base near Malakhi Junction 
Urim SIGINT Base near Urim 

List of Israel Defense Forces bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israel_Defense_Forces_bases

also, i understand that IDF soldiers are allowed to take their weapons home, although i am not aware entirely of the circumstances or conditions.

also, correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't the seat of political and military power meet in a populated area, or does the legitimate target knesset meet in the negev?

and exactly what jewish land do you wish to rid of its arab occupants, just so i get a feel for where you are coming from?


----------



## MHunterB

She just MIGHT be thinking of the tens of thousands of acres of land which were 'expropriated' by nations such as Syria and Iraq right after the Arab League member nations started passing laws revoking the citizenship of Jews en masse and confiscating everything........what's interesting is that such land parcels total an area something like *four times* the size of Israel (sans WB & Gaza).

But somehow the only thing those who claim they want 'fairness' suggest is 'the Jews could go back there to live'......  never has the idea of fair compensation been breathed as a possible solution to that problem.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> Here is your evidence.
> 
> Look at the place from which they launch their rockets:
> 
> Hamas firing rockets from populated area - YouTube
> 
> Hamas firing at Israel, from densely populated areas in Gaza - YouTube
> 
> Footage Released by Hamas Further Proves It Fires Rockets from Civilian Areas - YouTube


The first and third videos, are obviously military targets.  The second video, doesn't show any rockets.  None of the videos, show schools, mosque's or hospitals being used. However, the Goldstone Report did find Hamas was deliberately using weapons close to civilian structures.  That's one of the things they're guilty of.  But it is not as widespread as Israel (and you) want people to believe.  In that first video, Israel has a right to strike back at that target.  They do not have a right to raze down the entire neighborhood.

If you really want these rocket attacks to end, you're going to have to deal with the issue of why their fired in the first place.  And it has nothing to do with judaism.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> if Hamas hides the missiles inside schools, kindergardens, houses, hospitals, THEY and only THEY are to be blamed if innocent people are killed.


Wrong!  You're the one pulling the trigger.  You're the one making the decision to fire. As the "occupier", it is your responsibility to take the necessary precautions, to limit civilian casualties.

You can't target hospitals under any condition.  They're off limits!


----------



## Katzndogz

Blow them to smithereens.  If terrorists want to hide there, it's their fault.  It's called using human shields.  It is against every international law.  It is a war crime.   The proper response is to be sorry to have been forced to take unavoidable acts.

http://www.marshallcenter.org/mcpublicweb/mcdocs/files/college/hshlds-schmitt.pdf


----------



## sealadaigh

Katzndogz said:


> Blow them to smithereens.  If terrorists want to hide there, it's their fault.  It's called using human shields.  It is against every international law.  It is a war crime.   The proper response is to be sorry to have been forced to take unavoidable acts.
> 
> http://www.marshallcenter.org/mcpublicweb/mcdocs/files/college/hshlds-schmitt.pdf



well, you may actually want to read the paper that you linked to instead of assuming no one else would because it is so long, which does seem to be the latest trick among zionist supporters to divert and obfuscate the issue at hand.

and, depite the fact that the marshall center is the creation of former secretary of defense and vietnam draft dodger dick cheney, it was actually a not altogether horrible paper. HAMAS was mentioned very little and, even if the worst case scenario of israel's false allegations about human shields did actually happen, it comes as close to condemning israeli action regarding the killing of non-combatants as i have seen from an american governmental body.

perhaps you were too lazy to read it in its entirety.


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> She just MIGHT be thinking of the tens of thousands of acres of land which were 'expropriated' by nations such as Syria and Iraq right after the Arab League member nations started passing laws revoking the citizenship of Jews en masse and confiscating everything........what's interesting is that such land parcels total an area something like *four times* the size of Israel (sans WB & Gaza).
> 
> But somehow the only thing those who claim they want 'fairness' suggest is 'the Jews could go back there to live'......  never has the idea of fair compensation been breathed as a possible solution to that problem.



ahhhhh marg, "sans WB and gaza". i will take that as progress.

i have always said jews, on  a case by case basis, should be allowed fair compensation for lost property in the lands they fled from. i will note, however, that the circumstances of syrian jews and iraqi jews were vastly different situations. 

i really do think it is of imprtance to realise that the jewish communities in the arab states/peoples/nations really did thrive...flourish...up until the advent of zionism and the migration of european jews began. in fact, when anti-jewish pogroms in europe in times prior to WWI broke out, the jews sought safe haven and were well received in arab areas, and particularly in iraq.

now, you can make up all the stories you want about how horribly the arabs treated their jewish populations in your attempts to justify the creation of an artificial state, israel, but that really is all they are, stories.

history is not simple. here are arab peoples, allied with the british to defeat the turks and establish some sort of autonomy, only to have that autonomy given away to jewish europeans who fled to the mideast after WWI. essentially, the otoman turks, in that particular area, were replaced by zionist jews from europe.


----------



## Jroc

reabhloideach said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> She just MIGHT be thinking of the tens of thousands of acres of land which were 'expropriated' by nations such as Syria and Iraq right after the Arab League member nations started passing laws revoking the citizenship of Jews en masse and confiscating everything........what's interesting is that such land parcels total an area something like *four times* the size of Israel (sans WB & Gaza).
> 
> But somehow the only thing those who claim they want 'fairness' suggest is 'the Jews could go back there to live'......  never has the idea of fair compensation been breathed as a possible solution to that problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ahhhhh marg, "sans WB and gaza". i will take that as progress.
> 
> i have always said jews, on  a case by case basis, should be allowed fair compensation for lost property in the lands they fled from. i will note, however, that the circumstances of syrian jews and iraqi jews were vastly different situations.
> 
> i really do think it is of imprtance to realise that the jewish communities in the arab states/peoples/nations really did thrive...flourish...up until the advent of zionism and the migration of european jews began. in fact, when anti-jewish pogroms in europe in times prior to WWI broke out, the jews sought safe haven and were well received in arab areas, and particularly in iraq.
> 
> now, you can make up all the stories you want about how horribly the arabs treated their jewish populations in your attempts to justify the creation of an artificial state, israel, but that really is all they are, stories.
> 
> history is not simple. here are arab peoples, allied with the british to defeat the turks and establish some sort of autonomy, only to have that autonomy given away to jewish europeans who fled to the mideast after WWI. essentially, the otoman turks, in that particular area, were replaced by zionist jews from europe.
Click to expand...



The arabs got all the surrounding lands, all of it. One little sliver of land left for the Jews, their ancient home land is all they want. The arabs only want it, because the Jews have it. They even made up a people in order to help them get it, but the bottom line is Israel is there and is going to be there.. Get it? It&#8217;s about survival for the Jews and they are strong in Israel so get used to it hater, because when it comes down to survival "all options are on the table"


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PwbkXLJ-eQ&]"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PwbkXLJ-eQ&][/ame]


----------



## oldfart

jillian said:


> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.


Jillian,  I haven't kept up with the thread, but it looks to me that things have devolved into the ranting and snarkiness you were hoping to avoid.  That's a shame.  

Jamie


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> of course that would be stupid since the Arabs want to destroy Israel and could care less about international law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No every single Arab. But most of them.
> 
> Have you read the Islamic Hadith?
Click to expand...


Are you a scholar  on Islam? Do you read and write arabic?

The Arabs that hate jews are a mixture of people who've lost loved ones and radicals. Since Palestine is of Islamic culture it is easy to indoctrinate people using scripture to validate their hatred. Heck, Jews of Israel do it all the time, its called "Zionism."


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> So basically you know jack.
> 
> You thought that Israel is all about religion, was turned down by a Rabbi which told you that since you're no Jew there is no reason whatsoever to study Judaism, and based your thinking of listening to the Arab side only.
> 
> Yes, as I said before, your opinion is based on ignorance.
> 
> You know NOTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes seeing what you only want to see, such a typical trait that exist in Israel. My opinion is based on a collective experience. I have personal friends who've shared stories of living in Israel. I have seen Jews have this entitlement attitude. I have also read reafings of Jews who feel that Israel does not need America. I have had the unfortunate Rabbi experience and many more.
> 
> The only reason why Israel exist is because of the United States. Without U.S intercession, Israel would be at war with not just the Arab countries but also countries the covertly support Arab countries. Israel is not a liked country why don't you understand that? It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.
> 
> You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.
> 
> "It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".
> 
> So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.
> 
> It isn't rare, though.
> 
> Most haters have the same problem.
Click to expand...


I don't need to be present in order to dislike something. People often have misplaced and justified biases. Even if I took a trip to Israel and lived among the people this would not change my opinion. I am very opinionated and I am sure many Jews who are opinionated as I, would be argumentative. You claim that I am ignorant of Israel but you seem to be ignorant of Palestine. You make this judgment that "most Palestinians hate Jews." Do you know most Palestinians? Have you've done some kind of anthropological study to live amongst them and  develop a concrete factual belief that "most arabs hate jews?" I think not so if my views are based on ignorance then so is yours because there are tens of millions of arabs in that region and I would believe you hardly know most of them.


----------



## Aristotle

jillian said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.
> 
> It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> that is ridiculous. israel has every right to defend itself from rockets. and if hamas doesn't care about it's own people, which, indeed, does violate international law, then it isn't something israel can help.
> 
> they're still entitled to get rid of those missiles.
> 
> unless you think it's ok for israel to be bombed constantly.
> 
> which, and i thank you, proves the double standard of your own biases.
Click to expand...


So Israel has a right to send a missile killing innocent civilians? I want to know how this "defensive measure" is morally acceptable.


----------



## Aristotle

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.
> 
> It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't care where Hamas hides missiles?
> 
> You're one blinded guy, aren't you! if Hamas hides the missiles inside schools, kindergardens, houses, hospitals, THEY and only THEY are to be blamed if innocent people are killed.
> 
> Israel won't sacrifice its own kids in sake of Hamas' hopes that Israel won't strike! That's wicked to put Israel at that position to start with!
Click to expand...


Of course I care what any terrorist organization does.....(.However as I believe you've purposefully overlooked this)

I said Israel being militarily superior compared to Hamas and other like militant groups have a moral duty to attack surgically to avoid or at least minimizing non-combatant casualties.


----------



## Aristotle

jillian said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's wicked to put Israel at that position to start with!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we're talking about terrorist supporters.
> 
> it's not surprising.
Click to expand...


Jillian who said anything about supporting terrorist? I support the Arab people's way of life...Ah let me get it, gonna make an anti-semitic (I use this term since Arabs are of semitic lineage) and say all palestinian arabs are hostile terrorist?


----------



## auditor0007

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
Click to expand...


Just because somebody says something certainly doesn't make it true.  A lot of the crap you spew is just so far out there, it's unbelievable.  Of course you can find some Democrats who might be sympathetic to the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, but the same can be said for Republicans and Independents.  As for Americans hating Jews, there are plenty of them out there and they come from all walks of life and political persuasions.   You are fooling yourself if you think that as a whole, Democrats do not support Israel.


----------



## JoeB131

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



And once again, why do the Israelis insist on living in a place where their neighbors want to kill them? 

The problem with Israel is that it is predicated on a lie.  It was not "A land without a people for a people without a land."  There were people living there, for hundreds of years, and they were dispossessed of their land. 

Israel can no more expect peace than the Apartheid Botha government could.


----------



## sealadaigh

Lipush said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> So basically you know jack.
> 
> You thought that Israel is all about religion, was turned down by a Rabbi which told you that since you're no Jew there is no reason whatsoever to study Judaism, and based your thinking of listening to the Arab side only.
> 
> Yes, as I said before, your opinion is based on ignorance.
> 
> You know NOTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes seeing what you only want to see, such a typical trait that exist in Israel. My opinion is based on a collective experience. I have personal friends who've shared stories of living in Israel. I have seen Jews have this entitlement attitude. I have also read reafings of Jews who feel that Israel does not need America. I have had the unfortunate Rabbi experience and many more.
> 
> The only reason why Israel exist is because of the United States. Without U.S intercession, Israel would be at war with not just the Arab countries but also countries the covertly support Arab countries. Israel is not a liked country why don't you understand that? It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.
> 
> You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.
> "It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".
> 
> So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.
> 
> It isn't rare, though.
> 
> Most haters have the same problem.
Click to expand...


kinda making me think that the holocaust wasn't so bad, now. i mean, i have never seen it with my own eyes or experienced it with my own flesh. does a brief brush with internment count?

are you a holocaust denier? your argument seems designed for one.


----------



## jillian

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes seeing what you only want to see, such a typical trait that exist in Israel. My opinion is based on a collective experience. I have personal friends who've shared stories of living in Israel. I have seen Jews have this entitlement attitude. I have also read reafings of Jews who feel that Israel does not need America. I have had the unfortunate Rabbi experience and many more.
> 
> The only reason why Israel exist is because of the United States. Without U.S intercession, Israel would be at war with not just the Arab countries but also countries the covertly support Arab countries. Israel is not a liked country why don't you understand that? It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.
> 
> You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.
> "It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".
> 
> So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.
> 
> It isn't rare, though.
> 
> Most haters have the same problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> kinda making me think that the holocaust wasn't so bad, now. i mean, i have never seen it with my own eyes or experienced it with my own flesh. does a brief brush with internment count?
> 
> are you a holocaust denier? your argument seems designed for one.
Click to expand...


are you and your fellow terrorist supporters intentionally trolling this thread and trying to turn it into the typical nonsense that goes on in the is/pal forum for a reason?

or is it just because you can't get negged? or are you so used to spewing propaganda that you can't engage in the topic at hand... which is why is israel held to a different standard than every other country?

no need to respond... it's rhetorical. but feel free to return to the is/pal threads.


----------



## Jroc

auditor0007 said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jillian, I've been trying to tell you for years that you belong to the wrong party. In case you haven't noticed most democrats hate the Country of Israel and all the Jewish people who reside theirin. They favor the side of the terror groups like Hamas and the PLO. So lobbing rockets into Israel is the right thing to do. On the other hand democrats love the Mexicans and wish to erase all borders between the USA and Mexico and they demonize anyone who thinks we should protect our country from millions of illegal invaders. I hope this brings you up to speed. And, secondly, with the drug cartels now in power in Mexico don't think for a moment they wouldn't stoop to firing rockets into Arizona, California, or Texas. It's not a question of it it's a question of when.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just because somebody says something certainly doesn't make it true.  A lot of the crap you spew is just so far out there, it's unbelievable.  Of course you can find some Democrats who might be sympathetic to the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, but the same can be said for Republicans and Independents.  As for Americans hating Jews, there are plenty of them out there and they come from all walks of life and political persuasions.  * You are fooling yourself if you think that as a whole, Democrats do not support Israel*.
Click to expand...


whose fooling who?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVBqOELT_J0]Flubbed Jerusalem vote mars Democratic convention - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is your evidence.
> 
> Look at the place from which they launch their rockets:
> 
> Hamas firing rockets from populated area - YouTube
> 
> Hamas firing at Israel, from densely populated areas in Gaza - YouTube
> 
> Footage Released by Hamas Further Proves It Fires Rockets from Civilian Areas - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> The first and third videos, are obviously military targets.  The second video, doesn't show any rockets.  None of the videos, show schools, mosque's or hospitals being used. However, the Goldstone Report did find Hamas was deliberately using weapons close to civilian structures.  That's one of the things they're guilty of.  But it is not as widespread as Israel (and you) want people to believe.  In that first video, Israel has a right to strike back at that target.  They do not have a right to raze down the entire neighborhood.
> 
> If you really want these rocket attacks to end, you're going to have to deal with the issue of why their fired in the first place.  And it has nothing to do with judaism.
Click to expand...


The reason why they launch rockets is simple: They want to destroy Israel.

They say it out in the open themselves, and that is a fact you cannot deny.

"the Goldstone Report did find Hamas was deliberately using weapons close to civilian structures.  That's one of the things they're guilty of."

Whah, did I read right? You actually admitting Hamas are not angels! I didn't think I'll get to live through the day!

and it IS widespreaded. Goldstone report and others don't tell you about it, because Hamas didn't let their people be asked, niether they did investigate their own wrongdoings. That's why Goldstone report can be used as toilet paper and nothing more. Because it's connection to real facts is casual, at best.


----------



## Lipush

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes seeing what you only want to see, such a typical trait that exist in Israel. My opinion is based on a collective experience. I have personal friends who've shared stories of living in Israel. I have seen Jews have this entitlement attitude. I have also read reafings of Jews who feel that Israel does not need America. I have had the unfortunate Rabbi experience and many more.
> 
> The only reason why Israel exist is because of the United States. Without U.S intercession, Israel would be at war with not just the Arab countries but also countries the covertly support Arab countries. Israel is not a liked country why don't you understand that? It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.
> 
> You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.
> "It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".
> 
> So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.
> 
> It isn't rare, though.
> 
> Most haters have the same problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> kinda making me think that the holocaust wasn't so bad, now. i mean, i have never seen it with my own eyes or experienced it with my own flesh. does a brief brush with internment count?
> 
> are you a holocaust denier? your argument seems designed for one.
Click to expand...


Since it IS the clean debate zone, I will keep what I really want to say to myself.

I told people before, I do not speak in general, of the Holocaust.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> if Hamas hides the missiles inside schools, kindergardens, houses, hospitals, THEY and only THEY are to be blamed if innocent people are killed.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong!  You're the one pulling the trigger.  You're the one making the decision to fire. As the "occupier", it is your responsibility to take the necessary precautions, to limit civilian casualties.
> 
> You can't target hospitals under any condition.  They're off limits!
Click to expand...


Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then! If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.

In a normal world, I would have agreed with you. But when they Target civilized areas in Israel from INSIDE civilized areas among THEIR women and children, well, that is not normal.

Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?

What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No every single Arab. But most of them.
> 
> Have you read the Islamic Hadith?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a scholar  on Islam? Do you read and write arabic?
> 
> The Arabs that hate jews are a mixture of people who've lost loved ones and radicals. Since Palestine is of Islamic culture it is easy to indoctrinate people using scripture to validate their hatred. Heck, Jews of Israel do it all the time, its called "Zionism."
Click to expand...


"The Arabs that hate jews are a mixture of people who've lost loved ones and radicals"

Nonsense. There are dozens of Millions of Arabs, while Palestinian Arabs, just a few millions. Most of Arab/Muslims who hate Israel and the Jews, probably never met them, or know anything about them.

And you know nothing of Zionism! stop pretending as if you do! you hear of Zionism from the enemies of Israel! and from biased sources! you simply know nothing.


----------



## Lipush

Aristotle said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.
> 
> It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that is ridiculous. israel has every right to defend itself from rockets. and if hamas doesn't care about it's own people, which, indeed, does violate international law, then it isn't something israel can help.
> 
> they're still entitled to get rid of those missiles.
> 
> unless you think it's ok for israel to be bombed constantly.
> 
> which, and i thank you, proves the double standard of your own biases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Israel has a right to send a missile killing innocent civilians? I want to know how this "defensive measure" is morally acceptable.
Click to expand...


"So Israel has a right to send a missile killing innocent civilians?"

If you think Palestinians have that right, why not Israel?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> And once again, why do the Israelis insist on living in a place where their neighbors want to kill them?
> 
> [...]


This is a very good question considering the fact that alternatives were offered to Jewish refugees, such as the place in British East Africa now known as Kenya.  But the Zionists rejected that and insisted on settling in Israel.


----------



## Jos




----------



## Lipush

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> And once again, why do the Israelis insist on living in a place where their neighbors want to kill them?
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very good question considering the fact that alternatives were offered to Jewish refugees, such as the place in British East Africa now known as Kenya.  But the Zionists rejected that and insisted on settling in Israel.
Click to expand...


Because Israel is the homeland of the Jewish nation.

We would not settle for anything else.

To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.


----------



## Jos

Lipush said:


> To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.



Does that mean you understand the Palestinian refugees plight?


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> "such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.
> 
> You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.
> "It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".
> 
> So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.
> 
> It isn't rare, though.
> 
> Most haters have the same problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kinda making me think that the holocaust wasn't so bad, now. i mean, i have never seen it with my own eyes or experienced it with my own flesh. does a brief brush with internment count?
> 
> are you a holocaust denier? your argument seems designed for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> are you and your fellow terrorist supporters intentionally trolling this thread and trying to turn it into the typical nonsense that goes on in the is/pal forum for a reason?
> 
> or is it just because you can't get negged? or are you so used to spewing propaganda that you can't engage in the topic at hand... which is why is israel held to a different standard than every other country?
> 
> no need to respond... it's rhetorical. but feel free to return to the is/pal threads.
Click to expand...


i, and most of the pro-palestinian poster, eschew "terrorism" in all its forms. we condemn it, but we also try to understand the causes. i, myself , and being irish, do not like the word at all because it is a word that interjects what i think is an inappropriate emotionalism into an argument.

i have no idea what you mean by trolling? my posts, and the pro-palestian posts, have for the most part on topic and on target. i think it is the anti-palestinian/anti-muslim posters who have been the ones who have digressed and indulged a bit in personal attacks.

i think that the reasons these threads fall apart is that the anti-palestinian posters like yourself have very little to offer in the form of an adequate response when people counter their arguments. i think your last sentence demonstrates this perfectly..."no need to respond... it's rhetorical. but feel free to return to the is/pal threads." rhetorical questions are supposed to have obvious answers to all who read or hear them, not just the person asking. the only thing obvious about your questions is that you are angry and, probably, frustrated.

you began this thread with a very bad analogy about a very controversial subject. to expect people in opposition not to respond is a bit preposterous, don't you think?

i know you took a particular delight in "negging" me, but it has not really affected my posts all that much. if anything, it has made me more mellow. an aquantice of yours who also opted out described being out o the rep system as "liberating". that is sort of an odd word to use, actually, and it struck me because a while earlier, another poster had asked me how it was outside the rep system and i told him that i felt "liberated." i'm sorry if it takes away any real or imagined power you may think you have. you can, if you would like, PM me with a nasty comment or two.

why do you assume i hold israel to a different standard? i don't, other than the fact that different countries have different histories and different timelines and exist in different circumstances. i think it is zionists who hold israel to far lower standards than they hold other countries. 

i too think that, if you want to discusss israel being held to different standards, perhaps you should have a thread title like "Why Is Israel Held to Different Standards?" instead of something about "Mexican Terrorists" and then, making a poor analogy.

also, if you really did not want this to degenerate onto the kind of thread on the israel/palestine forum, perhaps you should read the first page of this thread at least and try to make an honest determination of where it began to go downhill, or if that is too tedious, read the first three posts.

thank you, jilli, for your input.


----------



## sealadaigh

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> "such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.
> 
> You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.
> "It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".
> 
> So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.
> 
> It isn't rare, though.
> 
> Most haters have the same problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kinda making me think that the holocaust wasn't so bad, now. i mean, i have never seen it with my own eyes or experienced it with my own flesh. does a brief brush with internment count?
> 
> are you a holocaust denier? your argument seems designed for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since it IS the clean debate zone, I will keep what I really want to say to myself.
> 
> I told people before, I do not speak in general, of the Holocaust.
Click to expand...


i was merely using your argument and your logic. i won't suggest you direct your anger inward as that is unhealthy but directing it towards me is misplaced.

perhaps you should just admit to aristotle that you made a very poor argument.

also, you may really want to realise that those closest to the situation in most cases are the ones with the least objective opinion. there were true believers in the six counties in northeastern ireland who could not distinguish between the way the felt and the way they thought. some of us could. those who do not confuse their hearts with their heads acted efectively.

the holocaust was way beyond horribele. you need not experience it first hand to know that. people have common joys, and they have common tragedies, and empathy allows them to share.

i think you should apologise to aristotle for your brusque dismissal.


----------



## Lipush

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean you understand the Palestinian refugees plight?
Click to expand...


The Palestinian refugee plight, as it is presented these days, is to call for a "Palestine" in place and instead of Israel.

Which I do not understand, nor I am willing to.

If it is to establish a state ALONGSIDE Israel, where both nations can live with respect, that is something I don't have any problem with.


----------



## sealadaigh

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean you understand the Palestinian refugees plight?
Click to expand...


i think she meant that she supports oglaigh na hEireann (sealadaigh?). an dtuigeann tu, lippy darlin'? go raibh ma agat, a stor.

**


----------



## Lipush

reabhloideach said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean you understand the Palestinian refugees plight?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i think she meant that she supports oglaigh na hEireann (sealadaigh?). an dtuigeann tu, lippy darlin'? go raibh ma agat, a stor.
> 
> **
Click to expand...


Sorry, I don't speak Capslockism.


----------



## sealadaigh

Lipush said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> if Hamas hides the missiles inside schools, kindergardens, houses, hospitals, THEY and only THEY are to be blamed if innocent people are killed.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong!  You're the one pulling the trigger.  You're the one making the decision to fire. As the "occupier", it is your responsibility to take the necessary precautions, to limit civilian casualties.
> 
> You can't target hospitals under any condition.  They're off limits!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then! If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.
> 
> In a normal world, I would have agreed with you. But when they Target civilized areas in Israel from INSIDE civilized areas among THEIR women and children, well, that is not normal.
> 
> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
Click to expand...


i dunno. maybe if israel agreed to ground their planes and dock their navy...and then gave HAMAS maybe fifteen firing batteries of 155 and 105 hows, a bunch of tanks, and a ton of ord and give them maybe three years to get up to speed...maybe then they could make precision hits on hospitals and schools like the israelis do.

then, about the only thing missing is a military court that exonerates their actions and a spokesman trained to say "we apologise for this regretable but unavoidable accident."

i notice you didn't answer my question about whether the list of israeli military bases were near populated ares and some of the other questions in my post awhile back.


----------



## Lipush

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> kinda making me think that the holocaust wasn't so bad, now. i mean, i have never seen it with my own eyes or experienced it with my own flesh. does a brief brush with internment count?
> 
> are you a holocaust denier? your argument seems designed for one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since it IS the clean debate zone, I will keep what I really want to say to myself.
> 
> I told people before, I do not speak in general, of the Holocaust.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i was merely using your argument and your logic. i won't suggest you direct your anger inward as that is unhealthy but directing it towards me is misplaced.
> 
> perhaps you should just admit to aristotle that you made a very poor argument.
> 
> also, you may really want to realise that those closest to the situation in most cases are the ones with the least objective opinion. there were true believers in the six counties in northeastern ireland who could not distinguish between the way the felt and the way they thought. some of us could. those who do not confuse their hearts with their heads acted efectively.
> 
> the holocaust was way beyond horribele. you need not experience it first hand to know that. people have common joys, and they have common tragedies, and empathy allows them to share.
> 
> i think you should apologise to aristotle for your brusque dismissal.
Click to expand...


He said himself he doesn't know much about our people, besides what he hears from Arabs. The way I see it, it equals ignorance. And it is untill proven otherwise.

I have seen pictures and read articles and heard stories about many subject. It hardly makes me in anyway an expert which can be used as an excuse to hate any side of a specific conflict.

That is my opinion, and I don't feel I should appologize for it. Unless the kind sir proves me wrong in a way that cannot be argued.

I am not saying my opinion is objective. Because it is not. Being raised to this conflict, I surely cannot say I can see both sides of the coin equaly. It is not my place, it is the place of the peole who have no connection to either one of the sides, that should look bothways.

Like mr. Aristotle.

But I think that you're confused. You cannot compare the Holocaust to any conflict or issue happening today ANYWHERE in the world. that comparison is incorrect.

The Holocaust, let us all it the Genocide of nations, because not only the Jewish Keddoshim were killed, but also the Romanis, disabled, outcasted, etc. Jus Naturale tells us that any mass murder based on race is horrible. Of course you don't need to be there to understand.

But the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is nothing like it. It's simply war. A child losing a brother or sister in Gaza, is no different then Nahlah Pass. a teenage boy's death in Gaza is no different in wrongness or terriblness than the brutal killing of Ofir Rahum.

That is my main point.


----------



## sealadaigh

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean you understand the Palestinian refugees plight?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think she meant that she supports oglaigh na hEireann (sealadaigh?). an dtuigeann tu, lippy darlin'? go raibh ma agat, a stor.
> 
> **
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I don't speak Capslockism.
Click to expand...


lolol...sorry, you speak hebrew occasionally. i speak irish occasionally. think of it as a cultural exchange.

i was just thanking you for supporting the irish republican army and flirting with you a bit.


----------



## Lipush

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think she meant that she supports oglaigh na hEireann (sealadaigh?). an dtuigeann tu, lippy darlin'? go raibh ma agat, a stor.
> 
> **
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I don't speak Capslockism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lolol...sorry, you speak hebrew occasionally. i speak irish occasionally. think of it as a cultural exchange.
> 
> i was just thanking you for supporting the irish republican army and flirting with you a bit.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lipush

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong!  You're the one pulling the trigger.  You're the one making the decision to fire. As the "occupier", it is your responsibility to take the necessary precautions, to limit civilian casualties.
> 
> You can't target hospitals under any condition.  They're off limits!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then! If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.
> 
> In a normal world, I would have agreed with you. But when they Target civilized areas in Israel from INSIDE civilized areas among THEIR women and children, well, that is not normal.
> 
> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i dunno. maybe if israel agreed to ground their planes and dock their navy...and then gave HAMAS maybe fifteen firing batteries of 155 and 105 hows, a bunch of tanks, and a ton of ord and give them maybe three years to get up to speed...maybe then they could make precision hits on hospitals and schools like the israelis do.
> 
> then, about the only thing missing is a military court that exonerates their actions and a spokesman trained to say "we apologise for this regretable but unavoidable accident."
> 
> i notice you didn't answer my question about whether the list of israeli military bases were near populated ares and some of the other questions in my post awhile back.
Click to expand...


Did you ever see what Hamas targets it's missiles upon?

Did you ever see what Hamas targets its SUICIDE BOMBERS upon?

It is not to be taken lightly!

In the south there are military bases near populated areas. not INSIDE populated areas. 

We complitely separate military from populated areas. You won't find any military combat action in an area where it might risk Israeli women and children.


----------



## High_Gravity

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong!  You're the one pulling the trigger.  You're the one making the decision to fire. As the "occupier", it is your responsibility to take the necessary precautions, to limit civilian casualties.
> 
> You can't target hospitals under any condition.  They're off limits!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then! If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.
> 
> In a normal world, I would have agreed with you. But when they Target civilized areas in Israel from INSIDE civilized areas among THEIR women and children, well, that is not normal.
> 
> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i dunno. maybe if israel agreed to ground their planes and dock their navy...and then gave HAMAS maybe fifteen firing batteries of 155 and 105 hows, a bunch of tanks, and a ton of ord and give them maybe three years to get up to speed...maybe then they could make precision hits on hospitals and schools like the israelis do.
> 
> then, about the only thing missing is a military court that exonerates their actions and a spokesman trained to say "we apologise for this regretable but unavoidable accident."
> 
> i notice you didn't answer my question about whether the list of israeli military bases were near populated ares and some of the other questions in my post awhile back.
Click to expand...


You want Israel to just give Hamas weapons?


----------



## Lipush

Yeah, you read that one right, LOL


----------



## MikeK

Lipush said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> And once again, why do the Israelis insist on living in a place where their neighbors want to kill them?
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very good question considering the fact that alternatives were offered to Jewish refugees, such as the place in British East Africa now known as Kenya.  But the Zionists rejected that and insisted on settling in Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Israel is the homeland of the Jewish nation.
> 
> We would not settle for anything else.
> 
> To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.
Click to expand...

I understand the concept perfectly.  But I wonder how long that bravado would remain constant without the kind of economic, diplomatic, and military support from the U.S. which Israel has enjoyed from Day One.  

I favor no side in the conflict between Israel and the Arab world.  I couldn't care less if they wipe each other out to the last man standing.  I feel Israel and its problems are none of my Country's business.  I believe the U.S. has done quite enough for Israel since 1947 and I do not believe the government con that Israel is an "ally" in the accepted sense of the word.  Britain is an ally. Israel is a _protectorate_ and a millstone about the neck of the American People.  The only thing the U.S. has ever gotten from Israel in return for its support is the attack on the USS Liberty and the Jonathan Pollard espionage affair.  And I have it on good authority that U.S. support of Israel was a major provocation for the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center and for the attack on the USS Cole.

So I hope you can understand that concept.  And if you believe anything I've said is false or biased, please be specific in your response.


----------



## sealadaigh

High_Gravity said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then! If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.
> 
> In a normal world, I would have agreed with you. But when they Target civilized areas in Israel from INSIDE civilized areas among THEIR women and children, well, that is not normal.
> 
> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i dunno. maybe if israel agreed to ground their planes and dock their navy...and then gave HAMAS maybe fifteen firing batteries of 155 and 105 hows, a bunch of tanks, and a ton of ord and give them maybe three years to get up to speed...maybe then they could make precision hits on hospitals and schools like the israelis do.
> 
> then, about the only thing missing is a military court that exonerates their actions and a spokesman trained to say "we apologise for this regretable but unavoidable accident."
> 
> i notice you didn't answer my question about whether the list of israeli military bases were near populated ares and some of the other questions in my post awhile back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want Israel to just give Hamas weapons?
Click to expand...


no, i was being facetious. what i want is for israel to stop making ridiculous excuses about why so many palestinian civilian and children are killed and stop conveying the impression of impunity to the troops.

the ratio of civilians and children killed to militanys killed is far too high.

i also want israel to stop complaining that HAMAS is targeting non military targets on the one hand and then saying the rockets are highly inaccurate on the other.

if you want HAMAS to fight the same kind of war israel fights, give them the same weaponry. superior firepower does not confer moral rectitude.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then!


The Goldstone Report found no evidence of this and no one has provided any to date that they do.  And if anyone ever did, that would be a war crime charge to Hamas, they'd have to deal with, it doesn't give you the right to declare the hospital a "free-fire zone".
But we're not even going to have this conversation, until you pony up the evidence that they have.



Lipush said:


> If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.


It doesn't mean that at all!  It also doesn't absolve Israel's obligations as an occupying power.  But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.  Until you provide the evidence, we're not even going to have this conversation.



Lipush said:


> In a normal world, I would have agreed with you. But when they Target civilized areas in Israel from INSIDE civilized areas among THEIR women and children, well, that is not normal.


Are you on crack?  They can't "Target" anything.  Their rockets have no guidance systems.  Their high-tech weapons consist of shooting rockets out of the trunk of their car and their guidance system consists of going home to turn on CNN to see where it landed.  That's why their rockets are classified as "indescriminant weapons", which is a war crime.  It doesn't matter if they're responding to an earlier Israeli attack, which the majority are, the use of these weapons are illegal.



Lipush said:


> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?


They live under the same rules Israel does.  It's just that Israel follows them less and are more belligerent about their violations. But that's a mute point.  Doesn't matter what rules are in place for Israel, they refuse to follow any.  Shit, you people won't even take responsibility for the things you do and say.



Lipush said:


> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?


They don't get a "softer part of the hand".  Stop being so obtuse!  You constantly demonize Hamas as the ones who don't want peace, yet its Israel who's always breaking the ceasefires.

If Israel was getting more of the "hitting part", then there would be more discussions on:
why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?
why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?
why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?
why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?
why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?
As far as I'm  concernced, there's way too much Israeli ass-kissing going on that I care to stomach.  Yet you want people to believe the emperor has new clothes.  And I'm going to tell you right now,  write it down for future reference...
_*"THAT DOG DON'T HUNT!"​*_


----------



## Lipush

MikeK said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very good question considering the fact that alternatives were offered to Jewish refugees, such as the place in British East Africa now known as Kenya.  But the Zionists rejected that and insisted on settling in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because Israel is the homeland of the Jewish nation.
> 
> We would not settle for anything else.
> 
> To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I understand the concept perfectly.  But I wonder how long that bravado would remain constant without the kind of economic, diplomatic, and military support from the U.S. which Israel has enjoyed from Day One.
> 
> I favor no side in the conflict between Israel and the Arab world.  I couldn't care less if they wipe each other out to the last man standing.  I feel Israel and its problems are none of my Country's business.  I believe the U.S. has done quite enough for Israel since 1947 and I do not believe the government con that Israel is an "ally" in the accepted sense of the word.  Britain is an ally. Israel is a _protectorate_ and a millstone about the neck of the American People.  The only thing the U.S. has ever gotten from Israel in return for its support is the attack on the USS Liberty and the Jonathan Pollard espionage affair.  And I have it on good authority that U.S. support of Israel was a major provocation for the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center and for the attack on the USS Cole.
> 
> So I hope you can understand that concept.  And if you believe anything I've said is false or biased, please be specific in your response.
Click to expand...


America supports Israel because it is AMERICAN interest. if it wasn't, you would not have done it.

And 9/11 was never about Israel. Only liars and fools will tell otherwise.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then!
> 
> 
> 
> The Goldstone Report found no evidence of this and no one has provided any to date that they do.  And if anyone ever did, that would be a war crime charge to Hamas, they'd have to deal with, it doesn't give you the right to declare the hospital a "free-fire zone".
> But we're not even going to have this conversation, until you pony up the evidence that they have.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It doesn't mean that at all!  It also doesn't absolve Israel's obligations as an occupying power.  But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.  Until you provide the evidence, we're not even going to have this conversation.
> 
> Are you on crack?  They can't "Target" anything.  Their rockets have no guidance systems.  Their high-tech weapons consist of shooting rockets out of the trunk of their car and their guidance system consists of going home to turn on CNN to see where it landed.  That's why their rockets are classified as "indescriminant weapons", which is a war crime.  It doesn't matter if they're responding to an earlier Israeli attack, which the majority are, the use of these weapons are illegal.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They live under the same rules Israel does.  It's just that Israel follows them less and are more belligerent about their violations. But that's a mute point.  Doesn't matter what rules are in place for Israel, they refuse to follow any.  Shit, you people won't even take responsibility for the things you do and say.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't get a "softer part of the hand".  Stop being so obtuse!  You constantly demonize Hamas as the ones who don't want peace, yet its Israel who's always breaking the ceasefires.
> 
> If Israel was getting more of the "hitting part", then there would be more discussions on:
> why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?
> why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?
> why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?
> why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?
> why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?
> As far as I'm  concernced, there's way too much Israeli ass-kissing going on that I care to stomach.  Yet you want people to believe the emperor has new clothes.  And I'm going to tell you right now, let this sink in to your little partisan Hebrew brain, write it down for future reference...
> _*"THAT DOG DON'T HUNT!"​*_
Click to expand...


You speak of the Godstone report like of some kind of Bible. Let it go, we all know the Godstone report is trash. Even Goldstone himself admitted it, so why stick to things which have no real ground?


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> You speak of the Godstone report like of some kind of Bible. Let it go, we all know the Godstone report is trash. Even Goldstone himself admitted it, so why stick to things which have no real ground?


It's not trash.  All the charges still stand today. Goldstone only admitted some conclusions would have been written differently, if Israel (and Hamas) would've cooperated more.

I just realized we're in the "Clean Debate Thread", so in the spirit of this thread, I'm going to go back and remove the "Hebrew brain" comment from my earlier post.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then!
> 
> 
> 
> The Goldstone Report found no evidence of this and no one has provided any to date that they do.  And if anyone ever did, that would be a war crime charge to Hamas, they'd have to deal with, it doesn't give you the right to declare the hospital a "free-fire zone".
> But we're not even going to have this conversation, until you pony up the evidence that they have.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It doesn't mean that at all!  It also doesn't absolve Israel's obligations as an occupying power.  But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.  Until you provide the evidence, we're not even going to have this conversation.
> 
> Are you on crack?  They can't "Target" anything.  Their rockets have no guidance systems.  Their high-tech weapons consist of shooting rockets out of the trunk of their car and their guidance system consists of going home to turn on CNN to see where it landed.  That's why their rockets are classified as "indescriminant weapons", which is a war crime.  It doesn't matter if they're responding to an earlier Israeli attack, which the majority are, the use of these weapons are illegal.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They live under the same rules Israel does.  It's just that Israel follows them less and are more belligerent about their violations. But that's a mute point.  Doesn't matter what rules are in place for Israel, they refuse to follow any.  Shit, you people won't even take responsibility for the things you do and say.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't get a "softer part of the hand".  Stop being so obtuse!  You constantly demonize Hamas as the ones who don't want peace, yet its Israel who's always breaking the ceasefires.
> 
> If Israel was getting more of the "hitting part", then there would be more discussions on:
> why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?
> why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?
> why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?
> why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?
> why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?
> As far as I'm  concernced, there's way too much Israeli ass-kissing going on that I care to stomach.  Yet you want people to believe the emperor has new clothes.  And I'm going to tell you right now, let this sink in to your little partisan Hebrew brain, write it down for future reference...
> _*"THAT DOG DON'T HUNT!"​*_
Click to expand...


You keep repeating the same errors I pointed out to you before. Why?

First thing I have told you, Hamas DOES TARGET civilized areas. Not through Guided systems, but they have other ways, much easier ones. They have locations. They know that if they fire the missile from a specific location, and in a specific angle, they are more likely hit a city, than an IDF base.

In "Pillar of cloud" they tried and succeded in locating civilians through cellular networks. They have their own ways of succeding targeting civilians. Missiles don't need guide systems for that.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> You keep repeating the same errors I pointed out to you before. Why?
> 
> First thing I have told you, Hamas DOES TARGET civilized areas. Not through Guided systems, but they have other ways, much easier ones. They have locations. They know that if they fire the missile from a specific location, and in a specific angle, they are more likely hit a city, than an IDF base.
> 
> In "Pillar of cloud" they tried and succeded in locating civilians through cellular networks. They have their own ways of succeding targeting civilians. Missiles don't need guide systems for that.


I'm not disagreeing with that.  And I'm not saying Hamas isn't trying shit they're not supposed to be doing.  But it's not an "error" on my part, pointing out that whatever Hamas does, doesn't relieve Israel of the things its responsible for.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then!
> 
> 
> 
> The Goldstone Report found no evidence of this and no one has provided any to date that they do.  And if anyone ever did, that would be a war crime charge to Hamas, they'd have to deal with, it doesn't give you the right to declare the hospital a "free-fire zone".
> But we're not even going to have this conversation, until you pony up the evidence that they have.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they do, it means that THEY see it at legitimate! Just like they see Israeli hospitals and kindergartens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It doesn't mean that at all!  It also doesn't absolve Israel's obligations as an occupying power.  But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.  Until you provide the evidence, we're not even going to have this conversation.
> 
> Are you on crack?  They can't "Target" anything.  Their rockets have no guidance systems.  Their high-tech weapons consist of shooting rockets out of the trunk of their car and their guidance system consists of going home to turn on CNN to see where it landed.  That's why their rockets are classified as "indescriminant weapons", which is a war crime.  It doesn't matter if they're responding to an earlier Israeli attack, which the majority are, the use of these weapons are illegal.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should you people demant special morales from Israel, but never do so with Hamas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They live under the same rules Israel does.  It's just that Israel follows them less and are more belligerent about their violations. But that's a mute point.  Doesn't matter what rules are in place for Israel, they refuse to follow any.  Shit, you people won't even take responsibility for the things you do and say.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't get a "softer part of the hand".  Stop being so obtuse!  You constantly demonize Hamas as the ones who don't want peace, yet its Israel who's always breaking the ceasefires.
> 
> If Israel was getting more of the "hitting part", then there would be more discussions on:
> why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?
> why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?
> why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?
> why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?
> why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?
> As far as I'm  concernced, there's way too much Israeli ass-kissing going on that I care to stomach.  Yet you want people to believe the emperor has new clothes.  And I'm going to tell you right now,  write it down for future reference...
> _*"THAT DOG DON'T HUNT!"​*_
Click to expand...


When you speak of "rules", you speak of what, exactly?

International law?

We follow the rules much better than our enemies, in each way you look at it.


----------



## Lipush

to your point, which I will adress now

- why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?

*which land do you refer to? Gaza? Judea and Samaria? Golan heights? Each and its own problem*

- why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?

*The laws of targeted hits says something very clearly, that it is allowed to hit a man which is an immediate risk to a group, a state or a nation. Since Jahabari was Hamas militant commandor, and was planning terror attacks against Israeli civilians, it was allowed. Also, Jahabri was a military man of Hamas. Not in the head of the govenment of Hamas. two completely different things. He was not elected.*

-why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?

*Israel built walls to save Israeli life. Or do you think that property is more important than life?*

-why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?

*But they do use weapons. Or what is that killed Israeli civilians through the years? candies?? I think that Israel indeed is an empire in the Mideast when comes to military. 
And the funny thing is, that it is also a country which is terrified of using it.

I have a discussion with my father earlier today about exactly that. funny. We waited years for allowing ourselves go on to "pillar of defense" and that was AFTER we ALSO waited years to start "Cast lead" because we were afraid we will have soldiers hurt.

We left Gaza because we didn't want soldiers hurt. We didn't respond to rockets on Sderot because we didn't want soldiers hurt. We didn't enter Gaza by ground 3 weeks ago *because we didn't want soldiers hurt*

So not only Israel is "most militarized country on earth", but it is also the country which FEARS MORE FOR ITS SOLDIERS, THAN ITS CIVILIANS*

-why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?

*The thread is about the rockets, so there is the answer to your question. 45 years of occupation will easily end once Hamas agrees to accept the state of Israel.

as for me, if you lift your eyes a little up and look right, there, right next to my avatar? There is the LOCATION part. See that? It reads "South Israel".

So while for you, the rocket issue may be unimportant and annoying, to me personally is an everyday issue.

In "Pillar of cloud" a rocket missile hit right next to my grandfathers house. The windows were broken, the open field and walls next to the nearest building ruined, the walls splintered. Only the fact that my grandfather was taken to a safe place saved his life. And he is one of the dearest people to me. Raised me since I was a toddler. If it not for the decision of a half a minute, take him north, I would have lost him. for me that's serious.

a matter of short days after the incident, a Grad rocket fell near my house. There was a wedding in that place. Women. Children. Lucliky, no one was killed, and that is only because they had a shelter. I happen to know their daughter, she was my classmate.

so for me, it is very important.*


----------



## MikeK

Lipush said:


> America supports Israel because it is AMERICAN interest. if it wasn't, you would not have done it.


I asked you to be specific.  How is it in America's interest to support Israel?  What do we get in return?



> And 9/11 was never about Israel. Only liars and fools will tell otherwise.


Really?

I'm sure you've heard of Osama bin Laden:

Bin Laden Says Attack On US Is To Stop Support For Israel, 12-27-01:
=========================

LONDON (Reuters) - _Osama bin Laden, the world's most wanted man, said on a video broadcast by al-Jazeera satellite television on Wednesday that *the September 11 suicide attacks were intended to stop U.S. support for Israel. 

"Our terrorism against the United States is worthy of praise to deter the oppressor so that America stop its support for Israel, which is killing our children," the bearded, Saudi-born fugitive said.* 

He added that the tape was being issued to mark about three months since the attacks on New York and Washington and two months after the United States began its bombing of Afghan targets. 

The remarks indicated the tape was recorded in early to mid December.  

Looking tired but calm, bin Laden was dressed in a clean, camouflage-patterned combat jacket. He sat against a cloth or canvas screen, his Russian-designed submachinegun propped beside him. There was no indication where he was when he recorded the video._ 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Israel: Strategic Ally or Constant Impediment? 
-by Prof. Matt Giwer:
October, 2001:
=============== 
Israel and its supporters have been relentless in repeating the assertion that Israel is a strategic ally of the US. They can rarely make a statement regarding the relationship of the two nations without asserting that as a mantra. Much cynicism has been heaped upon the ally part of that question. Very little has been said on the strategic part. Just what is its strategic value? 

As examples of strategic value our bases in Germany, England, Greece, Spain are strategic assets. Even our bases on little Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean are strategic assets. These permit pre-positioning troops, supplies and the hardware of war. The US has no bases in Israel. Given the US bases in Turkey, Greece and Saudi Arabia there is not the slightest need for one in Israel.

With the modern reliance upon air power, passage through friendly air space to get to the enemy in the shortest distance is strategically valuable for many reasons. Israel is land-locked to the North, East and South by nations ranging from unfriendly to hostile making it useless for a US airbase.

If we look back to the Cold War days we do not find a strategic value for Israel. Rather we find a political entity with the military capability to confront Soviet sponsored military expansion in the region. One can argue that was strategic but it was limited to a small part of the Mideast and far from the oil region. With the Cold War over and with a US base in Saudi Arabia in the middle of the oil region Israel cannot be considered of potential, future strategic utility in any sense.

At times the US has considered some countries to be strategic assets such as the Union of South Africa for metals needed for military jet engines and oil in the Mideast today. Israel has no particular mineral assets and certainly no rare ones. It exports no finished products which could be considered necessities for the US.

It is clear by inspection Israel has no strategic value to the US. The territory of Israel is of no value. The mineral assets of Israel are of no value. Its products are of no value. It follows clearly Israel is of no value to the US, strategic or otherwise. 

In reviewing the record we find Israel was useless to the US in the Gulf War. We find Israel is useless in this current terrorism war. *We can go back further and find it did positive harm to the US with its invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and provoking war with Syria in 1967.*

In addition to specific events we find Israel's on-going policies of military occupation, illegal settlement and oppression of Palestinians, even if not one of the causes of the 9/11 attack, certainly pretexts which can be exploited to the benefit of terrorists in recruitment and organization. Israel has not only refused to even slow down these aggressions but insists upon escalating them.

Rather in this present near crisis, Israel has moved to take advantage of the 9/11 attack to exacerbate every detrimental policy. Israel has done everything but give a straight out refusal to cooperate. It has declined every request to cooperate and support the US. Are those the actions of even a friend, much less an ally, much less a strategic ally? 

And in making matters worse Israel is directly harming the US effort to establish a coalition. One might even suggest it is deliberately doing so with that as the objective. *That Israel would act as it is without fear of US response suggests its Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, truly believed it when he said in the Knesset, "Jews control America" a month after the 9/11 attack.* 

We cannot find any strategic value of Israel to the US. We do find Israel refusing to act as an ally. *We even find Israel believing Jewish Americans are more loyal to Israel than to the US and apparently acting accordingly.* These are not the acts of an ally.

As a result of the 9/11 attack the true colors of Israel are being shown to the US. Israel's idea of being an ally is only when it benefits and not if bound to reciprocate. It has the unmitigated gall to impugn the loyalty of Jewish Americans. These are not the acts of an ally but of an enemy.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> When you speak of "rules", you speak of what, exactly?
> 
> International law?
> 
> We follow the rules much better than our enemies, in each way you look at it.


Follow the rules?

Is that why you're in violation of over 200 UN resolutions?

Is that why you shoot at Palestinian fisherman and farmers?

Is that why you blow away Palestinian kids playing soccer?


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> to your point, which I will adress now
> 
> - why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?
> 
> *which land do you refer to? Gaza? Judea and Samaria? Golan heights? Each and its own problem*
> 
> - why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?
> 
> *The laws of targeted hits says something very clearly, that it is allowed to hit a man which is an immediate risk to a group, a state or a nation. Since Jahabari was Hamas militant commandor, and was planning terror attacks against Israeli civilians, it was allowed. Also, Jahabri was a military man of Hamas. Not in the head of the govenment of Hamas. two completely different things. He was not elected.*
> 
> -why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?
> 
> *Israel built walls to save Israeli life. Or do you think that property is more important than life?*
> 
> -why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?
> 
> *But they do use weapons. Or what is that killed Israeli civilians through the years? candies?? I think that Israel indeed is an empire in the Mideast when comes to military.
> And the funny thing is, that it is also a country which is terrified of using it.
> 
> I have a discussion with my father earlier today about exactly that. funny. We waited years for allowing ourselves go on to "pillar of defense" and that was AFTER we ALSO waited years to start "Cast lead" because we were afraid we will have soldiers hurt.
> 
> We left Gaza because we didn't want soldiers hurt. We didn't respond to rockets on Sderot because we didn't want soldiers hurt. We didn't enter Gaza by ground 3 weeks ago *because we didn't want soldiers hurt*
> 
> So not only Israel is "most militarized country on earth", but it is also the country which FEARS MORE FOR ITS SOLDIERS, THAN ITS CIVILIANS*
> 
> -why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?
> 
> *The thread is about the rockets, so there is the answer to your question. 45 years of occupation will easily end once Hamas agrees to accept the state of Israel.
> 
> as for me, if you lift your eyes a little up and look right, there, right next to my avatar? There is the LOCATION part. See that? It reads "South Israel".
> 
> So while for you, the rocket issue may be unimportant and annoying, to me personally is an everyday issue.
> 
> In "Pillar of cloud" a rocket missile hit right next to my grandfathers house. The windows were broken, the open field and walls next to the nearest building ruined, the walls splintered. Only the fact that my grandfather was taken to a safe place saved his life. And he is one of the dearest people to me. Raised me since I was a toddler. If it not for the decision of a half a minute, take him north, I would have lost him. for me that's serious.
> 
> a matter of short days after the incident, a Grad rocket fell near my house. There was a wedding in that place. Women. Children. Lucliky, no one was killed, and that is only because they had a shelter. I happen to know their daughter, she was my classmate.
> 
> so for me, it is very important.*


I have to go, I'll tear this to shreds later (except the part about your relatives, I too, do not want them harmed).


----------



## sakinago

reabhloideach said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they absolutely do, I am not sure how you could deny this statement. And I am not sure how you could blame Israel for firing back. I dont care how progressive you think you are, if someone is shooting rockets on your town and family and kids, anyone, even the Quakers, would scream at their government to obliterate wherever those rockets are coming from.
> 
> Here is another question that is in the same sort of moral category, If we knew the intentions of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 before they hit the towers, would it be justifiable to shoot those planes down and save 1000's of civililian lives through sacrificing a couple hundred civilians lives?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> is it justifiable to bomb a mosque with a weapons cache that is filled with hundreds of worshippers when it could just have easily and effectively been bombed in the middle of the night with no one there.
> 
> also, there are many, many cases where hospitals and schools are attacked where there is no weapons cache and no real evidence of a weapons cache. now, i do not use the word "terrorism" exxcept on very rare occasions, but that really is ther essence of terrorism to me and it is particularly heinous because it is being done by a supposedly democratic nation.
> 
> no. i am not one of those alarmists who will scream "israel is deliberately targeting civilians", although i am sure some individuaal israelis are, but they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.
> 
> in vietnam, you could not just aim a claymore across a path with a trip wire and leave it, even though that path was used by bad guys only. you had to be there in case a kid wandered through. an "i am so sorry for this regretable incident" just doesn't cut it.
> 
> and that is not a good question of the same moral category. as usual, zionists make up analogies that do not at all fit the situation.
Click to expand...


Its funny because they actually have these things flying in the sky, and floating in space that will actually show the people using them exactly where the missiles were shot from. I know what I am saying is outrageous and absurd but it is true! And you cant answer a plausible moral scenario by making up an implausible very vague one. You do realize, and we have seen this many times in Iraq and Afghanistan, that when we take out a group of insurgents like that, their buddies come in and take away the weapons and anything that might link them to being a part of a terrorist faction... then claim that they were innocent civilians...it is a very common tactic thats been around as long as guerrilla warfare has.


----------



## Lipush

MikeK said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> America supports Israel because it is AMERICAN interest. if it wasn't, you would not have done it.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked you to be specific.  How is it in America's interest to support Israel?  What do we get in return?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And 9/11 was never about Israel. Only liars and fools will tell otherwise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really?
> 
> I'm sure you've heard of Osama bin Laden:
> 
> Bin Laden Says Attack On US Is To Stop Support For Israel, 12-27-01:
> =========================
> 
> LONDON (Reuters) - _Osama bin Laden, the world's most wanted man, said on a video broadcast by al-Jazeera satellite television on Wednesday that *the September 11 suicide attacks were intended to stop U.S. support for Israel.
> 
> "Our terrorism against the United States is worthy of praise to deter the oppressor so that America stop its support for Israel, which is killing our children," the bearded, Saudi-born fugitive said.*
> 
> He added that the tape was being issued to mark about three months since the attacks on New York and Washington and two months after the United States began its bombing of Afghan targets.
> 
> The remarks indicated the tape was recorded in early to mid December.
> 
> Looking tired but calm, bin Laden was dressed in a clean, camouflage-patterned combat jacket. He sat against a cloth or canvas screen, his Russian-designed submachinegun propped beside him. There was no indication where he was when he recorded the video._
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> Israel: Strategic Ally or Constant Impediment?
> -by Prof. Matt Giwer:
> October, 2001:
> ===============
> Israel and its supporters have been relentless in repeating the assertion that Israel is a strategic ally of the US. They can rarely make a statement regarding the relationship of the two nations without asserting that as a mantra. Much cynicism has been heaped upon the ally part of that question. Very little has been said on the strategic part. Just what is its strategic value?
> 
> As examples of strategic value our bases in Germany, England, Greece, Spain are strategic assets. Even our bases on little Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean are strategic assets. These permit pre-positioning troops, supplies and the hardware of war. The US has no bases in Israel. Given the US bases in Turkey, Greece and Saudi Arabia there is not the slightest need for one in Israel.
> 
> With the modern reliance upon air power, passage through friendly air space to get to the enemy in the shortest distance is strategically valuable for many reasons. Israel is land-locked to the North, East and South by nations ranging from unfriendly to hostile making it useless for a US airbase.
> 
> If we look back to the Cold War days we do not find a strategic value for Israel. Rather we find a political entity with the military capability to confront Soviet sponsored military expansion in the region. One can argue that was strategic but it was limited to a small part of the Mideast and far from the oil region. With the Cold War over and with a US base in Saudi Arabia in the middle of the oil region Israel cannot be considered of potential, future strategic utility in any sense.
> 
> At times the US has considered some countries to be strategic assets such as the Union of South Africa for metals needed for military jet engines and oil in the Mideast today. Israel has no particular mineral assets and certainly no rare ones. It exports no finished products which could be considered necessities for the US.
> 
> It is clear by inspection Israel has no strategic value to the US. The territory of Israel is of no value. The mineral assets of Israel are of no value. Its products are of no value. It follows clearly Israel is of no value to the US, strategic or otherwise.
> 
> In reviewing the record we find Israel was useless to the US in the Gulf War. We find Israel is useless in this current terrorism war. *We can go back further and find it did positive harm to the US with its invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and provoking war with Syria in 1967.*
> 
> In addition to specific events we find Israel's on-going policies of military occupation, illegal settlement and oppression of Palestinians, even if not one of the causes of the 9/11 attack, certainly pretexts which can be exploited to the benefit of terrorists in recruitment and organization. Israel has not only refused to even slow down these aggressions but insists upon escalating them.
> 
> Rather in this present near crisis, Israel has moved to take advantage of the 9/11 attack to exacerbate every detrimental policy. Israel has done everything but give a straight out refusal to cooperate. It has declined every request to cooperate and support the US. Are those the actions of even a friend, much less an ally, much less a strategic ally?
> 
> And in making matters worse Israel is directly harming the US effort to establish a coalition. One might even suggest it is deliberately doing so with that as the objective. *That Israel would act as it is without fear of US response suggests its Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, truly believed it when he said in the Knesset, "Jews control America" a month after the 9/11 attack.*
> 
> We cannot find any strategic value of Israel to the US. We do find Israel refusing to act as an ally. *We even find Israel believing Jewish Americans are more loyal to Israel than to the US and apparently acting accordingly.* These are not the acts of an ally.
> 
> As a result of the 9/11 attack the true colors of Israel are being shown to the US. Israel's idea of being an ally is only when it benefits and not if bound to reciprocate. It has the unmitigated gall to impugn the loyalty of Jewish Americans. These are not the acts of an ally but of an enemy.
Click to expand...


Are you aware of WHAT exactly is the Al-Quaeda terror organization? Are you aware that it is not ONLY harming Americans and oter Christians and Jews, but also Muslims?

It is because Its TARGET is to force RADICAL Islam on the world, by killing ANYONE who resiste that.

So saying it is about *Israel*? *XXXXXXX*


----------



## Lipush

As for your question, how on earth should I know the deep within american interests? You keep saying you're for freedom and Liberalism and liberty and all that, Israel see itself as a free country in the middle of a radical Islami ocean, so you do the math.

I have no idea what the Amercian government does the things it does. We in Israel see what you tell us.

Personally, I cannot WAIT for Israel to stop depending on the Americans so much. I wish we could just get along on our own. That way the Americans could not tell us what to do and not to do, like you guys tried to say in the Arab stpring.

God forbid that happening in Israel.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> When you speak of "rules", you speak of what, exactly?
> 
> International law?
> 
> We follow the rules much better than our enemies, in each way you look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> Follow the rules?
> 
> Is that why you're in violation of over 200 UN resolutions?
> 
> Is that why you shoot at Palestinian fisherman and farmers?
> 
> Is that why you blow away Palestinian kids playing soccer?
Click to expand...


You say it like we see Palestinian kids playing and think "mmmhm, what will be perfect is a BOMB on them".

Like we wake up saying we would like a Palestinian well-done for lunch.

as I said, let it go, its NOTHING LIKE THAT.

When Hamas does the things he does from civilian population, they cannot count on Israel not to react when ITS civilians are at stake.


----------



## JoeB131

Lipush said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> And once again, why do the Israelis insist on living in a place where their neighbors want to kill them?
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very good question considering the fact that alternatives were offered to Jewish refugees, such as the place in British East Africa now known as Kenya.  But the Zionists rejected that and insisted on settling in Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Israel is the homeland of the Jewish nation.
> 
> We would not settle for anything else.
> 
> To people who have never been persecuted or have any ties to a homeland, it won't matter. one cannot expect you to understand that concept.
Click to expand...


Except they hadn't lived their in thousands of years.  And it's debatable if the Jews of Europe descended from the Hebrews anymore than the Jews of Ethiopia.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> *which land do you refer to? Gaza? Judea and Samaria? Golan heights? Each and its own problem*


Gaza and the West Bank.



Lipush said:


> *The laws of targeted hits says something very clearly, that it is allowed to hit a man which is an immediate risk to a group, a state or a nation. Since Jahabari was Hamas militant commandor, and was planning terror attacks against Israeli civilians, it was allowed. Also, Jahabri was a military man of Hamas. Not in the head of the govenment of Hamas. two completely different things. He was not elected.*


First off, where are the _"laws of targeted hits", _codified in international law? Secondly, driving a car down the street, is not an immediate risk to Israel, only to other drivers nearby.  Thirdly, he's a member of their elected government and you can't go around shooting anybody you don't like.




Lipush said:


> *Israel built walls to save Israeli life. Or do you think that property is more important than life?*


That still doesn't give you the right to build structures on someone else's property.  I don't care how many Israeli lives you think you're saving, you can't save them in someone else's country, unless you have an embassy there.



Lipush said:


> But they do use weapons.


Homemade weapons.



Lipush said:


> Or what is that killed Israeli civilians through the years? candies??


Friendly fire.  Israeli foreign policy.  Indescriminant rocket attacks.  Old age.  Bad Woody Allen movies.  Pontius Pilate.  St. Paul. (when he was Saul of Tarsus).



Lipush said:


> I think that Israel indeed is an empire in the Mideast when comes to military.


You can't be a one-state empire, it doesn't work that way.



Lipush said:


> And the funny thing is, that it is also a country which is terrified of using it.


Oh please, that's like saying Charles Manson is pro-life.



Lipush said:


> I have a discussion with my father earlier today about exactly that. funny. We waited years for allowing ourselves go on to "pillar of defense" and that was AFTER we ALSO waited years to start "Cast lead" because we were afraid we will have soldiers hurt.


As long as you continue the 45 year occupation and seige on the Gazan economy, it's only a matter of time, before you get the rocket attacks.  That's one of the root causes of the attacks in the first place.  And until you address that fact, the rocket attacks will keep coming.  Get this through your head, you're not going to get your cake and eat it to.



Lipush said:


> We left Gaza because we didn't want soldiers hurt. We didn't respond to rockets on Sderot because we didn't want soldiers hurt. We didn't enter Gaza by ground 3 weeks ago *because we didn't want soldiers hurt*


Treating everyone in Gaza the same, making no distinction between combatants and non-combatants, is not way to protect soldiers.  Eliminating the reason for war, protects soldiers more.



Lipush said:


> So not only Israel is "most militarized country on earth", but it is also the country which FEARS MORE FOR ITS SOLDIERS, THAN ITS CIVILIANS


That's ass-backwards, when you consider that it's one groups' job, is to protect the other group.



Lipush said:


> The thread is about the rockets, so there is the answer to your question.


That's right.  But you don't live in a vacuum.  If X is dependant on Y, you can't talk about eliminating X, without discussing Y.



Lipush said:


> 45 years of occupation will easily end once Hamas agrees to accept the state of Israel.


Why would they do that when Israel refuses to reciprocate?

There you go with that _"having your cake..." _*XXXXXXX*



Lipush said:


> as for me, if you lift your eyes a little up and look right, there, right next to my avatar? There is the LOCATION part. See that? It reads "South Israel".
> 
> So while for you, the rocket issue may be unimportant and annoying, to me personally is an everyday issue.
> 
> In "Pillar of cloud" a rocket missile hit right next to my grandfathers house. The windows were broken, the open field and walls next to the nearest building ruined, the walls splintered. Only the fact that my grandfather was taken to a safe place saved his life. And he is one of the dearest people to me. Raised me since I was a toddler. If it not for the decision of a half a minute, take him north, I would have lost him. for me that's serious.
> 
> a matter of short days after the incident, a Grad rocket fell near my house. There was a wedding in that place. Women. Children. Lucliky, no one was killed, and that is only because they had a shelter. I happen to know their daughter, she was my classmate.
> 
> so for me, it is very important.


If you want the rocket attacks to stop, you have to deal with their root causes.  But in order to do that, you have to care more about your own family members, than you do making Israel look bad.  Kids come first, nation comes second.

That means:
end the occupation
end the Gaza seige
remove the checkpoints in the West Bank
get those lunatic settlers off Palestinian land
stop conducting extra-judicial killings
stop shooting at their fisherman and farmers
stop demonizing their leaders or interfering with their civilian infrastructure​
Do all that and the rocket attacks will stop.

And if they don't, then go in there and nuke the entire area and turn it into a large glowing parking lot.  

The main thing is, you're the ones who have to take the first step.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> You say it like we see Palestinian kids playing and think "mmmhm, what will be perfect is a BOMB on them".
> 
> Like we wake up saying we would like a Palestinian well-done for lunch.
> 
> as I said, let it go, its NOTHING LIKE THAT.


I'll give you a pass on this one, since its Israel's leaders and IDF commanders who are dictating the rules of engagement.  But don't push it.  As an Israeli citizen, you're still responsible for the government you elect.



Lipush said:


> When Hamas does the things he does from civilian population, they cannot count on Israel not to react when ITS civilians are at stake.


Stop trying to blame Hamas for things you do.  Blame Hamas for the triggers they pull, not the ones you pull.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hospitals are off limits? Tell Hamas not to hide inside them, then!
> 
> 
> 
> The Goldstone Report found no evidence of this and no one has provided any to date that they do.  And if anyone ever did, that would be a war crime charge to Hamas, they'd have to deal with, it doesn't give you the right to declare the hospital a "free-fire zone".
> But we're not even going to have this conversation, until you pony up the evidence that they have.
> 
> It doesn't mean that at all!  It also doesn't absolve Israel's obligations as an occupying power.  But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.  Until you provide the evidence, we're not even going to have this conversation.
> 
> Are you on crack?  They can't "Target" anything.  Their rockets have no guidance systems.  Their high-tech weapons consist of shooting rockets out of the trunk of their car and their guidance system consists of going home to turn on CNN to see where it landed.  That's why their rockets are classified as "indescriminant weapons", which is a war crime.  It doesn't matter if they're responding to an earlier Israeli attack, which the majority are, the use of these weapons are illegal.
> 
> They live under the same rules Israel does.  It's just that Israel follows them less and are more belligerent about their violations. But that's a mute point.  Doesn't matter what rules are in place for Israel, they refuse to follow any.  Shit, you people won't even take responsibility for the things you do and say.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Have Hamas done, to be deserved to get the softer part of the hand, while the hitting part goes for Israel only?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't get a "softer part of the hand".  Stop being so obtuse!  You constantly demonize Hamas as the ones who don't want peace, yet its Israel who's always breaking the ceasefires.
> 
> If Israel was getting more of the "hitting part", then there would be more discussions on:
> why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?
> why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?
> why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?
> why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?
> why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?
> As far as I'm  concernced, there's way too much Israeli ass-kissing going on that I care to stomach.  Yet you want people to believe the emperor has new clothes.  And I'm going to tell you right now, let this sink in to your little partisan Hebrew brain, write it down for future reference...
> _*"THAT DOG DON'T HUNT!"​*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You speak of the Godstone report like of some kind of Bible. Let it go, we all know the Godstone report is trash. Even Goldstone himself admitted it, so why stick to things which have no real ground?
Click to expand...


Of course that is not true.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh1be2EX8Ws]Goldstone Reignites Gaza Debate - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lipush

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Goldstone Report found no evidence of this and no one has provided any to date that they do.  And if anyone ever did, that would be a war crime charge to Hamas, they'd have to deal with, it doesn't give you the right to declare the hospital a "free-fire zone".
> But we're not even going to have this conversation, until you pony up the evidence that they have.
> 
> It doesn't mean that at all!  It also doesn't absolve Israel's obligations as an occupying power.  But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.  Until you provide the evidence, we're not even going to have this conversation.
> 
> Are you on crack?  They can't "Target" anything.  Their rockets have no guidance systems.  Their high-tech weapons consist of shooting rockets out of the trunk of their car and their guidance system consists of going home to turn on CNN to see where it landed.  That's why their rockets are classified as "indescriminant weapons", which is a war crime.  It doesn't matter if they're responding to an earlier Israeli attack, which the majority are, the use of these weapons are illegal.
> 
> They live under the same rules Israel does.  It's just that Israel follows them less and are more belligerent about their violations. But that's a mute point.  Doesn't matter what rules are in place for Israel, they refuse to follow any.  Shit, you people won't even take responsibility for the things you do and say.
> 
> They don't get a "softer part of the hand".  Stop being so obtuse!  You constantly demonize Hamas as the ones who don't want peace, yet its Israel who's always breaking the ceasefires.
> 
> If Israel was getting more of the "hitting part", then there would be more discussions on:
> why does Israel think they can control land that isn't theirs?
> why does Israel think they can get away with assassinating the elected leaders of a sovereign population?
> why does Israel think they can build walls and structures through someone else's property?
> why is the most militarized country on earth, attacking a population of people that doesn't even have one, nor are they allowed to have weapons to defend themselves?
> why do we keep talking about the rocket attacks as the problem and not the 45 year occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza?
> As far as I'm  concernced, there's way too much Israeli ass-kissing going on that I care to stomach.  Yet you want people to believe the emperor has new clothes.  And I'm going to tell you right now, let this sink in to your little partisan Hebrew brain, write it down for future reference...
> _*"THAT DOG DON'T HUNT!"​*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You speak of the Godstone report like of some kind of Bible. Let it go, we all know the Godstone report is trash. Even Goldstone himself admitted it, so why stick to things which have no real ground?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course that is not true.
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh1be2EX8Ws]Goldstone Reignites Gaza Debate - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...


Of course it is. Why was Goldstone chosen to make this report anyway?

He's a war-criminal himself.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say it like we see Palestinian kids playing and think "mmmhm, what will be perfect is a BOMB on them".
> 
> Like we wake up saying we would like a Palestinian well-done for lunch.
> 
> as I said, let it go, its NOTHING LIKE THAT.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give you a pass on this one, since its Israel's leaders and IDF commanders who are dictating the rules of engagement.  But don't push it.  As an Israeli citizen, you're still responsible for the government you elect.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> When Hamas does the things he does from civilian population, they cannot count on Israel not to react when ITS civilians are at stake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Stop trying to blame Hamas for things you do.  Blame Hamas for the triggers they pull, not the ones you pull.
Click to expand...


No, in this case, Hamas is not the one to pull the trigger.

But it is the one to load the gun and point it at the right direction.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say it like we see Palestinian kids playing and think "mmmhm, what will be perfect is a BOMB on them".
> 
> Like we wake up saying we would like a Palestinian well-done for lunch.
> 
> as I said, let it go, its NOTHING LIKE THAT.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give you a pass on this one, since its Israel's leaders and IDF commanders who are dictating the rules of engagement.  But don't push it.  As an Israeli citizen, you're still responsible for the government you elect.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> When Hamas does the things he does from civilian population, they cannot count on Israel not to react when ITS civilians are at stake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Stop trying to blame Hamas for things you do.  Blame Hamas for the triggers they pull, not the ones you pull.
Click to expand...


So do the Palestinians, when they elect Hamas.

What you say can go both ways.

I mysrlf served in the IDF, I know the system, and I know how it works.

Better than others. So I can tell in your face that the stereotype you live by, in mistaken.

And it IS, just a stereotype.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> You speak of the Godstone report like of some kind of Bible. Let it go, we all know the Godstone report is trash. Even Goldstone himself admitted it, so why stick to things which have no real ground?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course that is not true.
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh1be2EX8Ws]Goldstone Reignites Gaza Debate - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course it is. Why was Goldstone chosen to make this report anyway?
> 
> He's a war-criminal himself.
Click to expand...


WOW, I have never heard of that one before.

But how does that relate to this issue?


----------



## Lipush

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course that is not true.
> 
> Goldstone Reignites Gaza Debate - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is. Why was Goldstone chosen to make this report anyway?
> 
> He's a war-criminal himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WOW, I have never heard of that one before.
> 
> But how does that relate to this issue?
Click to expand...


It besides the point.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> No, in this case, Hamas is not the one to pull the trigger.
> 
> But it is the one to load the gun and point it at the right direction.


Their guns, not your guns.


----------



## editec

Just to remind some of us?


_COLLECTIVE_ PUNISHMENT is outlawed by international law.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, in this case, Hamas is not the one to pull the trigger.
> 
> But it is the one to load the gun and point it at the right direction.
> 
> 
> 
> Their guns, not your guns.
Click to expand...


both side's guns

You seem to believe that if they hide behind civilians, they have no responsibility if civilians gets killed on their side.

They have MOST of the responsibility. As I said- they load the gun, the point it at the right direction.

Israel pulls the trigger to protect Israeli children.

Like or not, that is just how it is.


----------



## Lipush

editec said:


> Just to remind some of us?
> 
> 
> _COLLECTIVE_ PUNISHMENT is outlawed by international law.



Good to know


----------



## jillian

Lipush said:


> both side's guns
> 
> You seem to believe that if they hide behind civilians, they have no responsibility if civilians gets killed on their side.
> 
> They have MOST of the responsibility. As I said- they load the gun, the point it at the right direction.
> 
> Israel pulls the trigger to protect Israeli children.
> 
> Like or not, that is just how it is.



it is... and that's true.

but again, the question is why anyone in the world would take offense to a nation defending itself from terrorist bombs.... 

it is a travesty when those terrorists put their weaponry over civilians just so those same terrorists can say "see how many innocents those bad self-defenders are killing".


----------



## Lipush

You don't need to ask me that, Jillian. I ask the same.

Apperently what other people won't stand themselves, they expect US to tolerant.

Simply because we wish to be left alone.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> both side's guns
> 
> You seem to believe that if they hide behind civilians, they have no responsibility if civilians gets killed on their side.
> 
> They have MOST of the responsibility. As I said- they load the gun, the point it at the right direction.
> 
> Israel pulls the trigger to protect Israeli children.
> 
> Like or not, that is just how it is.


There's no proof they hide behind kids and you haven't presented any. I, on the otherhand, have provided many statements from IDF soldiers who were there, saying they were told not to make any distinction between innocent civilians and combatants.

This whole "hide behind citizens" is a crock  to mask the inhuman brutalization of their population.  Nothing more than damage control.  They whole world is disgusted by Israeli actions and the day will come when it's finally fed up  deals with them, the same way they dealt with the nazis.  They're gonna go in there with a coalition force and put a stop to all of Israel's war-mongering crap.  The only reason they've gotten away with it up until now, is because of our veto in the UNSC.  But I'm workin' on that one.  I'm trying to get my countryman, not to vote for any Israeli kiss-ass politicians. If we can vote them all out of office, then Israel won't be able to do all this  to the Pals with impunity.


----------



## Billo_Really

jillian said:


> it is... and that's true.
> 
> but again, the question is why anyone in the world would take offense to a nation defending itself from terrorist bombs....
> 
> it is a travesty when those terrorists put their weaponry over civilians just so those same terrorists can say "see how many innocents those bad self-defenders are killing".


Why would a country think starving Gazan children, has anything to do with their national security.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> both side's guns
> 
> You seem to believe that if they hide behind civilians, they have no responsibility if civilians gets killed on their side.
> 
> They have MOST of the responsibility. As I said- they load the gun, the point it at the right direction.
> 
> Israel pulls the trigger to protect Israeli children.
> 
> Like or not, that is just how it is.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no proof they hide behind kids and you haven't presented any. I, on the otherhand, have provided many statements from IDF soldiers who were there, saying they were told not to make any distinction between innocent civilians and combatants.
> 
> This whole "hide behind citizens" is a crock  to mask the inhuman brutalization of their population.  Nothing more than damage control.  They whole world is disgusted by Israeli actions and the day will come when it's finally fed up  deals with them, the same way they dealt with the nazis.  They're gonna go in there with a coalition force and put a stop to all of Israel's war-mongering crap.  The only reason they've gotten away with it up until now, is because of our veto in the UNSC.  But I'm workin' on that one.  I'm trying to get my countryman, not to vote for any Israeli kiss-ass politicians. If we can vote them all out of office, then Israel won't be able to do all this  to the Pals with impunity.
Click to expand...


I have gave you proof, but you chose to either ignore, or overlook those proofs.

Yet again you prove to be very one sided and not think with reason. Or a Hamas "kiss-ass" man.

Let me ask you a specific question, and let us hope this time you won't ignore or try lying your way through it.

If the case of Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa would have happen in Israel, would the Palestinians have acted the same?


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> I have gave you proof, but you chose to either ignore, or overlook those proofs.


You posted 3 videos.  Two of them, were of the same rockets fired from a Gaza street.  There were no children shown in the videos.  The 3rd video, was just a bunch of people talking about rockets.




Lipush said:


> Yet again you prove to be very one sided and not think with reason. Or a Hamas "kiss-ass" man.


I've never made excuses for the crimes they commit.  It's just that Israel's crimes are a helleva lot more and much worse.

As for your "Hamas kiss-ass man" comment, now now now, you can't attack me personally..............uh...........mmm..............
ah, go ahead.  You have my permission.  It doesn't bother me.  Just don't ever say I never did anything for you.




Lipush said:


> Let me ask you a specific question, and let us hope this time you won't ignore or try lying your way through it.
> 
> If the case of Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa would have happen in Israel, would the Palestinians have acted the same?


Who's Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa?


----------



## Lipush

Loinboy- Explain:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE]Human Shields - Hamas in action - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have gave you proof, but you chose to either ignore, or overlook those proofs.
> 
> 
> 
> You posted 3 videos.  Two of them, were of the same rockets fired from a Gaza street.  There were no children shown in the videos.  The 3rd video, was just a bunch of people talking about rockets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet again you prove to be very one sided and not think with reason. Or a Hamas "kiss-ass" man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've never made excuses for the crimes they commit.  It's just that Israel's crimes are a helleva lot more and much worse.
> 
> As for your "Hamas kiss-ass man" comment, now now now, you can't attack me personally..............uh...........mmm..............
> ah, go ahead.  You have my permission.  It doesn't bother me.  Just don't ever say I never did anything for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me ask you a specific question, and let us hope this time you won't ignore or try lying your way through it.
> 
> If the case of Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa would have happen in Israel, would the Palestinians have acted the same?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa?
Click to expand...



You're not up to do some googling?

Very well then...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSxUkVv30ZI]Precious Life - Official Trailer - YouTube[/ame]

Saving Mohammed Abu-Mustafa - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

Also, please watch this

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPODy1hu1Lg]Precious Life, director Shlomi Eldar - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> Loinboy- Explain:
> 
> Human Shields - Hamas in action - YouTube



Cool, the people volunteered to sit on this guys house to prevent the IDF (Israeli Destruction Force) from bombing his house. It angered a lot of people in the duh bomb'em crowd.


----------



## Lipush

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Loinboy- Explain:
> 
> Human Shields - Hamas in action - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, the people volunteered to sit on this guys house to prevent the IDF (Israeli Destruction Force) from bombing his house. It angered a lot of people in the duh bomb'em crowd.
Click to expand...


It is risking civilians on porpuse.

Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.

There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.

it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".

But then again, your reason and mine work differently.


----------



## emilynghiem

Lipush said:


> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.
> 
> There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.
> 
> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.



I think the difference in culture is where people have substituted more "civil" means of committing otherwise barbaric acts in the name of political and economic gains.

Instead of bombing people to take land, our govt and corporations abuse "eminent domain" or other means of economically forcing people out who don't have equal legal defense.

Politicians "pimp" voters for fear of poverty, crime, etc. without offering any real solutions or relief and use that power to benefit themselves while leaving taxpayers stuck with the bill.

We are just more clever now, substituting unequal guns in the courtroom to ROB people of rights and property instead of using physical guns; and bullying people with political and economic coercion where it is less visible than military weapons, and harder to fight legally.

It's a tradeoff.

On one hand we don't have as much political violence as in less "developed" countries. 
On the other hand, the corruption and abuses going on using our civil, legal and democratic systems are so tied up in bureaucracy, it is almost impossible to untangle all the webs.


----------



## sealadaigh

jillian said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> both side's guns
> 
> You seem to believe that if they hide behind civilians, they have no responsibility if civilians gets killed on their side.
> 
> They have MOST of the responsibility. As I said- they load the gun, the point it at the right direction.
> 
> Israel pulls the trigger to protect Israeli children.
> 
> Like or not, that is just how it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is... and that's true.
> 
> but again, the question is why anyone in the world would take offense to a nation defending itself from terrorist bombs....
> it is a travesty when those terrorists put their weaponry over civilians just so those same terrorists can say "see how many innocents those bad self-defenders are killing".
Click to expand...


there is more proof that israelis hide behind palestinian children than there is proof that palestinian children...

and again, there are plenty of incidents where palestinian kids are killed  without a militant being killed or captured or an israeli being killed or wounded by return fire.

and the ratio to civilians being killed to militants being killed is higher than most conflicts of this nature.

"but again, the question is why anyone in the world would take offense to a nation defending itself from terrorist bombs...."  i am sure maj. whitside said something similar to col. forsyth as they gazed at the sun setting over a small creek in the dakota territories on 29 december, 1890. maybe one of them even muttered what was to become the motto for the soon to be state..."under god the people rule."


----------



## MikeK

Lipush said:


> Are you aware of WHAT exactly is the Al-Quaeda terror organization? Are you aware that it is not ONLY harming Americans and oter Christians and Jews, but also Muslims?


I am aware that Al Qaeda's conflict with other Muslims is nothing more than business as usual in that Middle Eastern peoples have been fighting among themselves forever and would continue doing so had we not provided them wih a diversion, which is our aggressive presence in their part of the world and our support of their historic enemy -- Israel.  



> It is because Its TARGET is to force RADICAL Islam on the world, by killing ANYONE who resiste that.


The fact remains they did not attack us until we increasingly oppressed them.  



> So saying it is about *Israel*? *XXXXXXX*


It is about Israel.  I've shown you that right from the horse's mouth but you choose not to believe it.  

Who Is Bin Laden? - Interview With Osama Bin Laden (in May 1998) | Hunting Bin Laden | FRONTLINE | PBS

The above link will take you to the transcript of PBS Frontline's May, 1998, interview with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.  In case you're not aware of it, PBS Frontline is by far the most respected and unimpeachably honest component of the mainstream news media.  

The fact is bin Laden warned us that if we didn't stop asserting ourselves on the Muslim world and supporting their enemy, Israel, we would have cause for regret.  And we know he was the instigator and the organizer of the 9/11 attack.  

What more proof do you need?


----------



## Lipush

What's the deal with the XXXXXXXX in red?


----------



## Lipush

_*The fact remains they did not attack us until we increasingly oppressed them*_

Oppressed WHO?!

*What more proof do you need?*

What more proof? So how come that countries who have never supported Israel, and even supported the "opressed" were also attacked by Al-Quaeda and others like them? how does THAT fact fits your reason?


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.


Funny how all your contempt and disdain is directed at someone trying to stop a war crime and not on the person actually committing the war crime.  I guess you think its okay to bulldoze down peoples homes on land you don't own.



Lipush said:


> There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.


Since when is a bomb shelter considered an offensive weapon?

How does a bomb shelter in Gaza, threaten Israeli citizens?

I guess if they dug it up, tied it to a trebuchet and launched it into Israel, that might work?


Lipush said:


> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.


You're something else!   You post a video showing an arab woman demonstrating how much she cares about a little child, then just 2 posts later, you go back to this "dead baby strategy" non-sense.


----------



## sealadaigh

this mantra of "HAMAS hides behind women and children" is getting very old, very monotonous, and very ridiculous.. the united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict found no evidence of that at all. if anything, they found evidence of the opposite. many people thought israel had it in their hip pocket with a zionist jew as the chairman of the mission but he only began to back away from the missions findings until the south african community slapped a *&#1495;&#1461;&#1512;&#1462;&#1501;* on him. ther is no reason to doubt the impartiality and obectivity of the other three members of the mission

the IDF had every opportunity to participate and co-operate with this mission but refused. HAMAS was little better. it is absurd to use or rely upon either one of their investigative conclusions.

personally, i think it is a bit callous and almost depraved to keep demonising either side beyond the facts and based upon the conclusions of biased and subjestive investigations. both sides are guilty of committing war crimes, be those crimes of negligence or deliberation. israel happens to commit these crimes more effectively than the palestinians, but one does not justify the other.


----------



## sealadaigh

Lipush said:


> What's the deal with the XXXXXXXX in red?



"civil discourse".

i know it is hard sometimes, but all of us have to watch our language and name calling. i think the monitors do a really good job with difficult material (especially difficult moi) but we really shouldn't let this board sink to the level of other boards.

lol...maybe we should look at it as a challange to our ability to be somewhat civil to one another. i wouldn't want to see anyone kicked off, especially those who slip up because yjey have english as a second language and are not familiar with american nuance and idiom.

an dtuigeann tu, mo chara?


----------



## sakinago

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have gave you proof, but you chose to either ignore, or overlook those proofs.
> 
> 
> 
> You posted 3 videos.  Two of them, were of the same rockets fired from a Gaza street.  There were no children shown in the videos.  The 3rd video, was just a bunch of people talking about rockets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet again you prove to be very one sided and not think with reason. Or a Hamas "kiss-ass" man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've never made excuses for the crimes they commit.  It's just that Israel's crimes are a helleva lot more and much worse.
> 
> As for your "Hamas kiss-ass man" comment, now now now, you can't attack me personally..............uh...........mmm..............
> ah, go ahead.  You have my permission.  It doesn't bother me.  Just don't ever say I never did anything for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me ask you a specific question, and let us hope this time you won't ignore or try lying your way through it.
> 
> If the case of Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa would have happen in Israel, would the Palestinians have acted the same?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa?
Click to expand...




I can't believe you are still trying to argue a point, that the UN, Obama, or any country in Europe arn't even arguing for. 3 of Hamas top leaders boast about using civilians as human shields. Here is one of them.

Video: Hamas admits to using human shields | EuropeNews

So, what you are trying to say is that Israel is knowingly firing rockets on women and children for the hell of it. Hamas does this as well but are more justified because they are the underdog, and there are territory disputes.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Loinboy- Explain:
> 
> Human Shields - Hamas in action - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, the people volunteered to sit on this guys house to prevent the IDF (Israeli Destruction Force) from bombing his house. It angered a lot of people in the duh bomb'em crowd.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.
> 
> There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.
> 
> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.
Click to expand...


All that and Israel had no right to bomb that guy's house to begin with.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Loinboy- Explain:
> 
> Human Shields - Hamas in action - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, the people volunteered to sit on this guys house to prevent the IDF (Israeli Destruction Force) from bombing his house. It angered a lot of people in the duh bomb'em crowd.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.
> 
> There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.
> 
> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.
Click to expand...


Did you forget the rules on this board?


----------



## Lipush

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, the people volunteered to sit on this guys house to prevent the IDF (Israeli Destruction Force) from bombing his house. It angered a lot of people in the duh bomb'em crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.
> 
> There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.
> 
> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you forget the rules on this board?
Click to expand...


The rules of this board say no flame or offense.

I said that your reason and mine work differently. That's a fact, not an offense.

What you think is wrong, I don't, and the other way around.

You say pointing that out is an insult?

You havn't been insulted much, if you think that.

At any case, my intention was not to harm you, my appologies of that is how it sounded.


----------



## Lipush

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, the people volunteered to sit on this guys house to prevent the IDF (Israeli Destruction Force) from bombing his house. It angered a lot of people in the duh bomb'em crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.
> 
> There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.
> 
> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All that and Israel had no right to bomb that guy's house to begin with.
Click to expand...


If the house was sheltering bombs and weapon and rockets targeted to harm Israeli civilians, then hell yes, Israel had every right to do that.


----------



## MikeK

Lipush said:


> _*The fact remains they did not attack us until we increasingly oppressed them*_





> Oppressed WHO?!


I have provided you with credible documentation as to Al Qaeda's reason for attacking the U.S. on 9/11.  Essentially, Al Qaeda resides in religious solidarity with the Palestinian people whom they believe to be seriously oppressed by Israel.  And because of our economic, diplomatic and military support of Israel Al Qaeda regards the U.S. as an extension of the oppressor -- the _friend of their enemy_ as it were.   

*What more proof do you need?*



> What more proof? So how come that countries who have never supported Israel, and even supported the "opressed" were also attacked by Al-Quaeda and others like them? how does THAT fact fits your reason?


I am not a Middle East scholar and my interest in the specific motivations for Al Qaeda's attacks on other nations is limited.  I do know that in the example of Spain there is some innate anti-Islamic feeling dating back to that nation's occupation by the Moors.  But I'm not aware of anything more specific, nor am I sufficiently interested to research it.

In the example of the terrorist bombings in Denmark, I do recall the issue of a  week-long publication of particularly offensive cartoons with Muhammad as subject.  While I personally do not regard offensive cartoons to be justification for terrorist bombings I am neither religious nor Islamic.  And knowing how fanatical some Islamists can be I think it's a bad idea to contemptuously offend their religion.  

Those are my guesses as to two of Al Qaeda's attacks on other nations.  As mentioned, I'm not sufficiently interested to research their motivation.  I'm concerned only with their actions against the U.S.  I know what motivated those attacks and I do expect there will be more such actions against us because of our excessively aggressive actions, such as drone attacks which produce innocent civilian casualties.  These actions are making more enemies for us and more friends for Al Qaeda.


----------



## Billo_Really

sakinago said:


> I can't believe you are still trying to argue a point, that the UN, Obama, or any country in Europe arn't even arguing for. 3 of Hamas top leaders boast about using civilians as human shields. Here is one of them.


WTF are you talking about?  The official UN position on this is in the Goldstone Report and they didn't find any evidence this was occuring by Hamas.  But they did find 7 incidents of the IDF using human shields.



sakinago said:


> So, what you are trying to say is that Israel is knowingly firing rockets on women and children for the hell of it.


Yes.  Because they're firing from F16's, Apache gunships and drones.  They can see what they are targeting.  Many of their weapons are lazer guided.




sakinago said:


> Hamas does this as well but are more justified because they are the underdog, and there are territory disputes.


Hamas weapons can only be lobbed into the sky towards Israel and they have no way of controlling where they land. Which classify's them as indescriminant weapons.

Now, how many fuckin' times do I have to point out, that these rockets are war crimes, committed on the part of Hamas, before it sinks in to your fuckin' brain, that I condemned their use and not condoned it?

I'm getting really sick of re-stating the same fact over and over and over, because you people don't have the balls to be honest!


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> it is... and that's true.
> 
> but again, the question is why anyone in the world would take offense to a nation defending itself from terrorist bombs....
> 
> it is a travesty when those terrorists put their weaponry over civilians just so those same terrorists can say "see how many innocents those bad self-defenders are killing".
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a country think starving Gazan children, has anything to do with their national security.
Click to expand...


Nobody is starving Gaza children. If that was correct, then all the world would have known the names of the children dying of starvation.

For someone who pretends to do lot of research, you don't bring any proof of such who support that claim. Where are the photos of skinni starving children in Gaza?


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny how all your contempt and disdain is directed at someone trying to stop a war crime and not on the person actually committing the war crime.  I guess you think its okay to bulldoze down peoples homes on land you don't own.
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing "cool" about stending in order to protect a bomb shelter from bring destroyed, then whine when Israel protects its people by destroying that bomb shelter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since when is a bomb shelter considered an offensive weapon?
> 
> How does a bomb shelter in Gaza, threaten Israeli citizens?
> 
> I guess if they dug it up, tied it to a trebuchet and launched it into Israel, that might work?
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're something else!   You post a video showing an arab woman demonstrating how much she cares about a little child, then just 2 posts later, you go back to this "dead baby strategy" non-sense.
Click to expand...


The "War Crime" Corrie tried to stop is called "Hissuf". It means "digging" the ground to find expolisve which risked the lives of both soldiers and civilians.

She was a fool because one really needs to be in order to stand infront of an military vessel and trust she can "float" above it. Her actions were risking Israeli civilians.

Why should I not say the truth as it is.

As for what I have said above, sorry, what I meant to say, "a place where you hold bombs" meaning "warehouse", mistaked the words for "bomb shelters" (I don't believe they even HAVE bomb shelters in Gaza). Sorry again, for my miss-used words, English is not my mothertongue.

I believe that mothers in Gaza care for their children, at some point. I don't think any instinct is stronger than a maternal instinct. And not even that, as women, we're built to care for the young, it's in our DNA. But Hamas is something else. 

In the last operation, IDF warned Gaza civilians that its going to attack in the southern area of Gaza, he called for the civilians to leave their homes because they wished to attack the rocket warehouses in there. Hamas PROHIBITED the civilians to leave.

I mean, WTF?!


----------



## Lipush

sakinago said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have gave you proof, but you chose to either ignore, or overlook those proofs.
> 
> 
> 
> You posted 3 videos.  Two of them, were of the same rockets fired from a Gaza street.  There were no children shown in the videos.  The 3rd video, was just a bunch of people talking about rockets.
> 
> 
> I've never made excuses for the crimes they commit.  It's just that Israel's crimes are a helleva lot more and much worse.
> 
> As for your "Hamas kiss-ass man" comment, now now now, you can't attack me personally..............uh...........mmm..............
> ah, go ahead.  You have my permission.  It doesn't bother me.  Just don't ever say I never did anything for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me ask you a specific question, and let us hope this time you won't ignore or try lying your way through it.
> 
> If the case of Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa would have happen in Israel, would the Palestinians have acted the same?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's Muhammad-Abu-Mustafa?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe you are still trying to argue a point, that the UN, Obama, or any country in Europe arn't even arguing for. 3 of Hamas top leaders boast about using civilians as human shields. Here is one of them.
> 
> Video: Hamas admits to using human shields | EuropeNews
> 
> So, what you are trying to say is that Israel is knowingly firing rockets on women and children for the hell of it. Hamas does this as well but are more justified because they are the underdog, and there are territory disputes.
Click to expand...


you nailed it.


----------



## Lipush

reabhloideach said:


> this mantra of "HAMAS hides behind women and children" is getting very old, very monotonous, and very ridiculous.. the united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict found no evidence of that at all. if anything, they found evidence of the opposite. many people thought israel had it in their hip pocket with a zionist jew as the chairman of the mission but he only began to back away from the missions findings until the south african community slapped a *&#1495;&#1461;&#1512;&#1462;&#1501;* on him. ther is no reason to doubt the impartiality and obectivity of the other three members of the mission
> 
> the IDF had every opportunity to participate and co-operate with this mission but refused. HAMAS was little better. it is absurd to use or rely upon either one of their investigative conclusions.
> 
> personally, i think it is a bit callous and almost depraved to keep demonising either side beyond the facts and based upon the conclusions of biased and subjestive investigations. both sides are guilty of committing war crimes, be those crimes of negligence or deliberation. israel happens to commit these crimes more effectively than the palestinians, but one does not justify the other.



Hamas used and using human shields on regular basis.

When saying that, I don't mean that Hamas must take a group of women and children and hold them as shields PER SE.

Saying to the community not to leave their houses KNOWING there is a chance their houses must be bombed, just to prevent IDF from bombing rockets warehouses, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.

Sending children to pass rockets from one point to another, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.

Sendind kids to the border with a bomb tied wround their hips, telling them that killing soldiers will grant them heaven, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.

Sending rockets from a hospital, civilian house, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.

As for Israel, it was told that Israel used the method called &#1504;&#1493;&#1492;&#1500; &#1513;&#1499;&#1503;, lit. means "The neighbor method". it did it for a very limited time, using a neighbor as "protector" when sinding suspicious people. The military and civilian court highly condemned that method, saying it is against the IDF spirit which says, "Don't harm the uninvolved". this method stopped, thank God.

Now the tactic is much more humanitarian. It is called "knock-on-roof". The IDf "tappes" on the roofd of the houses, or using weapns that are not lethal, causing the civilians inside, if there are any, to leave, then destroyed the house. that is why sometimes you see little Gazan girls next to their ruin houses, in which THEY HAVE BEEN INTO only minute earlier, but the kids are without a scratch.

That is the true IDF spirit.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is risking civilians on porpuse.
> 
> Just like the idiot Corrie tried to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny how all your contempt and disdain is directed at someone trying to stop a war crime and not on the person actually committing the war crime.  I guess you think its okay to bulldoze down peoples homes on land you don't own.
> 
> Since when is a bomb shelter considered an offensive weapon?
> 
> How does a bomb shelter in Gaza, threaten Israeli citizens?
> 
> I guess if they dug it up, tied it to a trebuchet and launched it into Israel, that might work?
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> it is really concerning you see using civilians (children among them) as "shields" to protect the house, as "cool".
> 
> But then again, your reason and mine work differently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're something else!   You post a video showing an arab woman demonstrating how much she cares about a little child, then just 2 posts later, you go back to this "dead baby strategy" non-sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "War Crime" Corrie tried to stop is called "Hissuf". It means "digging" the ground to find expolisve which risked the lives of both soldiers and civilians.
> 
> She was a fool because one really needs to be in order to stand infront of an military vessel and trust she can "float" above it. Her actions were risking Israeli civilians.
> 
> Why should I not say the truth as it is.
> 
> As for what I have said above, sorry, what I meant to say, "a place where you hold bombs" meaning "warehouse", mistaked the words for "bomb shelters" (I don't believe they even HAVE bomb shelters in Gaza). Sorry again, for my miss-used words, English is not my mothertongue.
> 
> I believe that mothers in Gaza care for their children, at some point. I don't think any instinct is stronger than a maternal instinct. And not even that, as women, we're built to care for the young, it's in our DNA. But Hamas is something else.
> 
> In the last operation, IDF warned Gaza civilians that its going to attack in the southern area of Gaza, he called for the civilians to leave their homes because they wished to attack the rocket warehouses in there. Hamas PROHIBITED the civilians to leave.
> 
> I mean, WTF?!
Click to expand...




> The "War Crime" Corrie tried to stop is called "Hissuf". It means "digging" the ground to find expolisve which risked the lives of both soldiers and civilians.



Of course that is not true.

Israel wanted a buffer zone along Palestine's border with Egypt. To accomplish this it bulldozed *every house* within a few hundred meters of that border.

It had nothing to do with weapons or any of that crap.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> this mantra of "HAMAS hides behind women and children" is getting very old, very monotonous, and very ridiculous.. the united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict found no evidence of that at all. if anything, they found evidence of the opposite. many people thought israel had it in their hip pocket with a zionist jew as the chairman of the mission but he only began to back away from the missions findings until the south african community slapped a *&#1495;&#1461;&#1512;&#1462;&#1501;* on him. ther is no reason to doubt the impartiality and obectivity of the other three members of the mission
> 
> the IDF had every opportunity to participate and co-operate with this mission but refused. HAMAS was little better. it is absurd to use or rely upon either one of their investigative conclusions.
> 
> personally, i think it is a bit callous and almost depraved to keep demonising either side beyond the facts and based upon the conclusions of biased and subjestive investigations. both sides are guilty of committing war crimes, be those crimes of negligence or deliberation. israel happens to commit these crimes more effectively than the palestinians, but one does not justify the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas used and using human shields on regular basis.
> 
> When saying that, I don't mean that Hamas must take a group of women and children and hold them as shields PER SE.
> 
> Saying to the community not to leave their houses KNOWING there is a chance their houses must be bombed, just to prevent IDF from bombing rockets warehouses, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sending children to pass rockets from one point to another, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sendind kids to the border with a bomb tied wround their hips, telling them that killing soldiers will grant them heaven, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sending rockets from a hospital, civilian house, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> As for Israel, it was told that Israel used the method called &#1504;&#1493;&#1492;&#1500; &#1513;&#1499;&#1503;, lit. means "The neighbor method". it did it for a very limited time, using a neighbor as "protector" when sinding suspicious people. The military and civilian court highly condemned that method, saying it is against the IDF spirit which says, "Don't harm the uninvolved". this method stopped, thank God.
> 
> Now the tactic is much more humanitarian. It is called "knock-on-roof". The IDf "tappes" on the roofd of the houses, or using weapns that are not lethal, causing the civilians inside, if there are any, to leave, then destroyed the house. that is why sometimes you see little Gazan girls next to their ruin houses, in which THEY HAVE BEEN INTO only minute earlier, but the kids are without a scratch.
> 
> That is the true IDF spirit.
Click to expand...


A bunch of crapola. The Goldstone report found no evidence to support that allegation.

And besides, destroying civilian infrastructure is a war crime.


----------



## Lipush

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> this mantra of "HAMAS hides behind women and children" is getting very old, very monotonous, and very ridiculous.. the united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict found no evidence of that at all. if anything, they found evidence of the opposite. many people thought israel had it in their hip pocket with a zionist jew as the chairman of the mission but he only began to back away from the missions findings until the south african community slapped a *&#1495;&#1461;&#1512;&#1462;&#1501;* on him. ther is no reason to doubt the impartiality and obectivity of the other three members of the mission
> 
> the IDF had every opportunity to participate and co-operate with this mission but refused. HAMAS was little better. it is absurd to use or rely upon either one of their investigative conclusions.
> 
> personally, i think it is a bit callous and almost depraved to keep demonising either side beyond the facts and based upon the conclusions of biased and subjestive investigations. both sides are guilty of committing war crimes, be those crimes of negligence or deliberation. israel happens to commit these crimes more effectively than the palestinians, but one does not justify the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas used and using human shields on regular basis.
> 
> When saying that, I don't mean that Hamas must take a group of women and children and hold them as shields PER SE.
> 
> Saying to the community not to leave their houses KNOWING there is a chance their houses must be bombed, just to prevent IDF from bombing rockets warehouses, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sending children to pass rockets from one point to another, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sendind kids to the border with a bomb tied wround their hips, telling them that killing soldiers will grant them heaven, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sending rockets from a hospital, civilian house, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> As for Israel, it was told that Israel used the method called &#1504;&#1493;&#1492;&#1500; &#1513;&#1499;&#1503;, lit. means "The neighbor method". it did it for a very limited time, using a neighbor as "protector" when sinding suspicious people. The military and civilian court highly condemned that method, saying it is against the IDF spirit which says, "Don't harm the uninvolved". this method stopped, thank God.
> 
> Now the tactic is much more humanitarian. It is called "knock-on-roof". The IDf "tappes" on the roofd of the houses, or using weapns that are not lethal, causing the civilians inside, if there are any, to leave, then destroyed the house. that is why sometimes you see little Gazan girls next to their ruin houses, in which THEY HAVE BEEN INTO only minute earlier, but the kids are without a scratch.
> 
> That is the true IDF spirit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A bunch of crapola. The Goldstone report found no evidence to support that allegation.
> 
> And besides, destroying civilian infrastructure is a war crime.
Click to expand...


The "knowck-on-roof" method had started in this operation, not in the times of the trash-report of goldstone.

"And besides, destroying civilian infrastructure is a war crime"

When there are risks of life, it's ok to ruin property.

and it is not a war crime when the people who'[s property have been ruined, are Jews, right?


----------



## Lipush

Eh! apperently I was not well informed! lookie what I found

Roof knocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas used and using human shields on regular basis.
> 
> When saying that, I don't mean that Hamas must take a group of women and children and hold them as shields PER SE.
> 
> Saying to the community not to leave their houses KNOWING there is a chance their houses must be bombed, just to prevent IDF from bombing rockets warehouses, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sending children to pass rockets from one point to another, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sendind kids to the border with a bomb tied wround their hips, telling them that killing soldiers will grant them heaven, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> Sending rockets from a hospital, civilian house, IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
> 
> As for Israel, it was told that Israel used the method called &#1504;&#1493;&#1492;&#1500; &#1513;&#1499;&#1503;, lit. means "The neighbor method". it did it for a very limited time, using a neighbor as "protector" when sinding suspicious people. The military and civilian court highly condemned that method, saying it is against the IDF spirit which says, "Don't harm the uninvolved". this method stopped, thank God.
> 
> Now the tactic is much more humanitarian. It is called "knock-on-roof". The IDf "tappes" on the roofd of the houses, or using weapns that are not lethal, causing the civilians inside, if there are any, to leave, then destroyed the house. that is why sometimes you see little Gazan girls next to their ruin houses, in which THEY HAVE BEEN INTO only minute earlier, but the kids are without a scratch.
> 
> That is the true IDF spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A bunch of crapola. The Goldstone report found no evidence to support that allegation.
> 
> And besides, destroying civilian infrastructure is a war crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "knowck-on-roof" method had started in this operation, not in the times of the trash-report of goldstone.
> 
> "And besides, destroying civilian infrastructure is a war crime"
> 
> When there are risks of life, it's ok to ruin property.
> 
> and it is not a war crime when the people who'[s property have been ruined, are Jews, right?
Click to expand...


During Cast Lead Israel destroyed thousands of homes and a lot of other civilian infrastructure with the excuse that they housed militants.

Yet only a few hundred militants were killed.

Why don't these numbers add up?


----------



## Lipush

Hamas also have a saying of that, doncha think? you know how many rockets fall inside the strip?

Only in the last few month a rocket hitting and falling inside Gaza, killed a 2 year old Palestinian baby.

We know that since the IDF didn't attack at all at the time.

Yet it didn't stop them from blaming Israel..


----------



## Jroc

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwtRd3ZCNBs]Hamas Proudly Admits To Using Human Shields - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Billo_Really

Jroc said:


> Hamas Proudly Admits To Using Human Shields - YouTube


If this is the only thing you got to prove that ridiculous claim, then Goldstone was right. 

There is no evidence of Hamas using children as human shields.

The only thing this video proves, is "your" perception of what you want it to prove. 

And it is unclear whether or not that is his intent.


----------



## MHunterB

loinboy said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas Proudly Admits To Using Human Shields - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the only thing you got to prove that ridiculous claim, then Goldstone was right.
> 
> There is no evidence of Hamas using children as human shields.
> 
> The only thing this video proves, is "your" perception of what you want it to prove.
> 
> And it is unclear whether or not that is his intent.
Click to expand...


Of course there's no evidence to support 'your' perception as given above.  Except of  course for any weight anther person would assing to an OPINION  coming from you.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> Hamas also have a saying of that, doncha think? you know how many rockets fall inside the strip?
> 
> Only in the last few month a rocket hitting and falling inside Gaza, killed a 2 year old Palestinian baby.
> 
> We know that since the IDF didn't attack at all at the time.
> 
> Yet it didn't stop them from blaming Israel..


I'm trying to find an article I read recently that talked about a recent interview right after the "pillar of cloud" ceasefire.  The interview was done by CNN and, as usual, they wanted to show no bias to either side, by having a representive from Israel and one from Gaza, both speak about the dangerous conditions they live under, when the rockets and bombs start falling into their neighborhoods.  Without knowing it, this video shows better than any words on the subject, who lives with the greater danger.

The video shows  all this time and energy talking about the rocket attacks, is just a diversion designed to keep people from talking about the real truth in Gaza.

As this interview takes place, the CNN host goes back and forth to each guest, asking them basically the same questions. The Israeli guest is speaking from somewhere down where you live, the Palestinian guest, is speaking from Gaza.  When the images are of the Israeli guest talking about who the rocket attacks have injured and their affect on the local population (mostly psychological), not much is going on in the background.  But when they video shifts to the guest in Gaza, you keep hearing these loud bangs in the background.  They occured so frequently, that the CNN host finally had to ask, _"What is that noise we keep hearing?"_  The Gazan guest replied, _"Those are air strikes!"_  Then, all of a sudden, one hits so close, you can see the building shake in the background. The next thing you see and hear, is the start of a bang, then the video goes out!

And you think the discussion should be soley on the rocket attacks?

Since this is the "clean debate zone", I'll stop there.  Because what I want to say next, is not very kind.


----------



## Billo_Really

MHunterB said:


> Of course there's no evidence to support 'your' perception as given above.  Except of  course for any weight anther person would assing to an OPINION  coming from you.


Whenever evidence is demanded to show Hamas using human shields, this is the only thing that keeps getting presented over and over and over again.  The video doesn't prove what you claim it does.  Your perception might be right, or it might be wrong.  But that video, doesn't prove it.

And since no other evidence has been presented, I have no choice but to conclude, that this is nothing but  pro-Israeli propaganda.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> The "War Crime" Corrie tried to stop is called "Hissuf". It means "digging" the ground to find expolisve which risked the lives of both soldiers and civilians.
> 
> She was a fool because one really needs to be in order to stand infront of an military vessel and trust she can "float" above it. Her actions were risking Israeli civilians.
> 
> Why should I not say the truth as it is.


But you're not speaking the truth.  The home that Corrie was trying to protect, was in Gaza.  A place the Israeli military has no legal justification (or authority) to be in.  The IDF's presence there is classified (at that time) as a "belligerant occupation". If it's illegal for them to be there, then it's also illegal for them to be bulldozing down anyone's home.  And consequently, anyone who dies during an illegal act by the Israeli's, they are guilty of murder.

How can Israeli civilians be at risk in Gaza?  Gaza is not their country. 



Lipush said:


> In the last operation, IDF warned Gaza civilians that its going to attack in the southern area of Gaza, he called for the civilians to leave their homes because they wished to attack the rocket warehouses in there. Hamas PROHIBITED the civilians to leave.
> 
> I mean, WTF?!


There's a big difference between a warehouse and a home.   Why do people have to leave their homes, if you're only going to target warehouses?


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas Proudly Admits To Using Human Shields - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the only thing you got to prove that ridiculous claim, then Goldstone was right.
> 
> There is no evidence of Hamas using children as human shields.
> 
> The only thing this video proves, is "your" perception of what you want it to prove.
> 
> And it is unclear whether or not that is his intent.
Click to expand...


How come that when Hamas proves with their own sayings that they use human shields, it doesn't qualify as enough for you?

Only when foreign sources claim something, it counts as valid?

I don't get it.


----------



## Billo_Really

Lipush said:


> How come that when Hamas proves with their own sayings that they use human shields, it doesn't qualify as enough for you?
> 
> Only when foreign sources claim something, it counts as valid?
> 
> I don't get it.


How can you say for a fact, that is what he's claiming.

Maybe he could be saying, _"You can kill us all and we still won't give in to your demands!"_

The meaning of the video, is not that black and white.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas also have a saying of that, doncha think? you know how many rockets fall inside the strip?
> 
> Only in the last few month a rocket hitting and falling inside Gaza, killed a 2 year old Palestinian baby.
> 
> We know that since the IDF didn't attack at all at the time.
> 
> Yet it didn't stop them from blaming Israel..
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to find an article I read recently that talked about a recent interview right after the "pillar of cloud" ceasefire.  The interview was done by CNN and, as usual, they wanted to show no bias to either side, by having a representive from Israel and one from Gaza, both speak about the dangerous conditions they live under, when the rockets and bombs start falling into their neighborhoods.  Without knowing it, this video shows better than any words on the subject, who lives with the greater danger.
> 
> The video shows  all this time and energy talking about the rocket attacks, is just a diversion designed to keep people from talking about the real truth in Gaza.
> 
> As this interview takes place, the CNN host goes back and forth to each guest, asking them basically the same questions. The Israeli guest is speaking from somewhere down where you live, the Palestinian guest, is speaking from Gaza.  When the images are of the Israeli guest talking about who the rocket attacks have injured and their affect on the local population (mostly psychological), not much is going on in the background.  But when they video shifts to the guest in Gaza, you keep hearing these loud bangs in the background.  They occured so frequently, that the CNN host finally had to ask, _"What is that noise we keep hearing?"_  The Gazan guest replied, _"Those are air strikes!"_  Then, all of a sudden, one hits so close, you can see the building shake in the background. The next thing you see and hear, is the start of a bang, then the video goes out!
> 
> And you think the discussion should be soley on the rocket attacks?
> 
> Since this is the "clean debate zone", I'll stop there.  Because what I want to say next, is not very kind.
Click to expand...


When I bring the Israeli side into a debate discussin Israeli "war crimes", people tend to almost bite my head off, since I'm so off-topic.

So, the thread is about the rockets, it's off topic to talk about anything else.


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> How come that when Hamas proves with their own sayings that they use human shields, it doesn't qualify as enough for you?
> 
> Only when foreign sources claim something, it counts as valid?
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> How can you say for a fact, that is what he's claiming.
> 
> Maybe he could be saying, _"You can kill us all and we still won't give in to your demands!"_
> 
> The meaning of the video, is not that black and white.
Click to expand...


"How can you say for a fact, that is what he's claiming."

*Because it is what he's saying!*


----------



## Lipush

loinboy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas also have a saying of that, doncha think? you know how many rockets fall inside the strip?
> 
> Only in the last few month a rocket hitting and falling inside Gaza, killed a 2 year old Palestinian baby.
> 
> We know that since the IDF didn't attack at all at the time.
> 
> Yet it didn't stop them from blaming Israel..
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to find an article I read recently that talked about a recent interview right after the "pillar of cloud" ceasefire.  The interview was done by CNN and, as usual, they wanted to show no bias to either side, by having a representive from Israel and one from Gaza, both speak about the dangerous conditions they live under, when the rockets and bombs start falling into their neighborhoods.  Without knowing it, this video shows better than any words on the subject, who lives with the greater danger.
> 
> The video shows  all this time and energy talking about the rocket attacks, is just a diversion designed to keep people from talking about the real truth in Gaza.
> 
> As this interview takes place, the CNN host goes back and forth to each guest, asking them basically the same questions. The Israeli guest is speaking from somewhere down where you live, the Palestinian guest, is speaking from Gaza.  When the images are of the Israeli guest talking about who the rocket attacks have injured and their affect on the local population (mostly psychological), not much is going on in the background.  But when they video shifts to the guest in Gaza, you keep hearing these loud bangs in the background.  They occured so frequently, that the CNN host finally had to ask, _"What is that noise we keep hearing?"_  The Gazan guest replied, _"Those are air strikes!"_  Then, all of a sudden, one hits so close, you can see the building shake in the background. The next thing you see and hear, is the start of a bang, then the video goes out!
> 
> And you think the discussion should be soley on the rocket attacks?
> 
> Since this is the "clean debate zone", I'll stop there.  Because what I want to say next, is not very kind.
Click to expand...



"The video shows  all this time and energy talking about the rocket attacks, is just a diversion designed to keep people from talking about the real truth in Gaza."

What?? 

You serious?

Now that is just insulting! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Excuse me Sir, I would really like to know, if you were in MY shoes, or any southerner's shoes, reading what you've just said, what would you have thought?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I would like you to tell me how a comminuty that lives 12 years under counstant rocket fire supposed to feel that all discussions of it are *nothing but diversion* !

It surely doesn't seem that way to us.

Recent UN report says that children of Gaza suffer through post traumatic stress due to the situation between Israel and Gaza in the last time period.

With all the sympathy for the children of Gaza (And there IS sympathy, children should not go through war-trauma ANYWHERE in the world), such report was never made toward the children of Ashkelon or Netivot!

All reports discussin the port-traumatic stress of children due to Rocket fire or terror attacks, are funded, investigated and Published, by Jewish or Israeli sources only! How come the UN doesn't have the time to call to someone to take responsibility of SUCH phenomenons?

Yet they say they don't want to be BIASED? 

DIVERSION?!

That's the biggest humiliation southerners can go through! And I will not be at all surprised if that view will be adopted by the "enlightened" countries worldwide!

The video you described is unfamiliar to me. If you can find it, please bring it here.

For the sake of honesty, in the current operation, known in Hebrew as "Amud Ana'an", the Israeli media almost didn't show anything comming from the Gaza strip. from now and then we could have seen flashes of what was going on there, Ambulances and fire, but that was not at all the focus.

Mostly the "hot line" on television showed politicians and live-fallings and launchings. It was very different from Cast Lead, where we saw very much live, the situation in Gaza. I don't know why it wasn't the case now.

So was the situation where the Israeli Public was left in the dark, that we almost thought at time that they only launch rockets without IDF reponse.

In the second night of Amud Anaan, the night after Jahabri was killed, my area (I live next to Be'er Sheva, in a small town) was constantly under rocket fire. Most of the rockets fall between Be'er Sheva and my town, when you hear the fallings like people bomb your backyard, trust me, it is not a feeling you cherish much, in that night, I could not sleep, becaue you hear constand boom sounds, sometime fallings, sometimes Iron domes, It was the night that the yeard outside my grandpa's house suffered direct hit, no need to say, one can hardly sleep. 

Anyway, sitting in the dark, the smartphone next to the bed, I could chat-text with my friends, I was surprised, I asked, "We hear the Iron dome, we hear the fallings, the room shakes, we're all sleepless, how come the IDF doesn't do anything to stop this? And my friends said- "the bombing you hear from afar are not only bombings in our area". From Netivot the Israelis could hear the attacks in Gaza, too, besides the rocket launch.

We took that to mind, because the Israeli media didn't tell us of it. Most of the information got from Palestinian sources.


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## sealadaigh

MEMRI TV...propaganda.

united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict...not propaganda.


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## Lipush

reabhloideach said:


> MEMRI TV...propaganda.
> 
> united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict...not propaganda.



The words were translated correctly.

It means the video is accurate.

Fact that Memri-TV is not Pro-Palestinian doesn't make the video false.


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## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEMRI TV...propaganda.
> 
> united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict...not propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The words were translated correctly.
> 
> It means the video is accurate.
> 
> Fact that Memri-TV is not Pro-Palestinian doesn't make the video false.
Click to expand...


This video was taken out of context and its purpose is to mislead.


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## Lipush

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEMRI TV...propaganda.
> 
> united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict...not propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The words were translated correctly.
> 
> It means the video is accurate.
> 
> Fact that Memri-TV is not Pro-Palestinian doesn't make the video false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This video was taken out of context and its purpose is to mislead.
Click to expand...


can you bring a proof?


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## P F Tinmore

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> The words were translated correctly.
> 
> It means the video is accurate.
> 
> Fact that Memri-TV is not Pro-Palestinian doesn't make the video false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video was taken out of context and its purpose is to mislead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> can you bring a proof?
Click to expand...


The story is that Palestinians voluntarily shielded this man's home.

They were not used by Hamas as human shields.


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## Lipush

not that. I meant the one which has the Hamas guy admitting of using women and chilren as sheilds.

The memri video


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## eots

jillian said:


> fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?
> 
> so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?
> 
> Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have  an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.
> 
> Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.



the story of history depends on when you start the clock..you start it at missiles fired..


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