# do gangster rappers hate the black community?



## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

i know alot of them are black, and they must know that most black youth today listens to rap. so why are they always rapping about 'kill dat ******' or "kill this ******", advocate being a criminal, going to prison, hurting each other in some way, not to mention using the word ****** so much like it's a good thing, even calling themself  a ******. if i was black and some other black dude called me ****** i get pissed. the black community in america has enough problems without so much gangsta rap trying to make it worse.
 :2guns:


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> i know alot of them are black, and they must know that most black youth today listens to rap. so why are they always rapping about 'kill dat ******' or "kill this ******", advocate being a criminal, going to prison, hurting each other in some way, not to mention using the word ****** so much like it's a good thing, even calling themself  a ******. if i was black and some other black dude called me ****** i get pissed. the black community in america has enough problems without so much gangsta rap trying to make it worse.
> :2guns:


Guess who finances and consumes most of that gangsta rap?


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## Dan (Mar 22, 2006)

> Guess who finances and consumes most of that gangsta rap?



White suburban kids trying to piss off mommy and daddy.

I don't think most rappers really consider the effect their music has on the black community. I think it's mostly a matter of "okay, this sells, so let's do this." After NWA blew up, the record companies couldn't wait to put out songs about killing people and stuff. Once Jay-Z got big, every song you heard was about "look at how much money I got." I guess 'crunk' music is the current trend? I don't know, the last rap album I bought was The Marshall Mathers LP, and that was like six years ago.


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Guess who finances and consumes most of that gangsta rap?




non blacks is my guess. i don't get your point, if you're trying to make one.


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## dmp (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> non blacks is my guess. i don't get your point, if you're trying to make one.




How old are you?


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

Dan said:
			
		

> White suburban kids trying to piss off mommy and daddy.
> 
> I don't think most rappers really consider the effect their music has on the black community. I think it's mostly a matter of "okay, this sells, so let's do this." After NWA blew up, the record companies couldn't wait to put out songs about killing people and stuff. Once Jay-Z got big, every song you heard was about "look at how much money I got." I guess 'crunk' music is the current trend? I don't know, the last rap album I bought was The Marshall Mathers LP, and that was like six years ago.




believe it or not, other (non black) races listen to rap just as much as white. 
 and no offense but thinking that black gangster rappers don't realize how their words influence young blacks is incredibly ignorant. this old realization has been brought up several times for years directly to certain black gangster rappers through the media.


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> How old are you?




uh, why? are you lookin' to meet kids on the internet?


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## dmp (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> uh, why? are you lookin' to meet kids on the internet?




You either provide your age or your account will be closed. We have a rule about being 14 or older.


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## Said1 (Mar 22, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> How old are you?




Arch's 8 yr old grandson. That apple fell from the Arch tree, no doubt aboot it.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> non blacks is my guess. i don't get your point, if you're trying to make one.


I guess we should get mad at Al Pacino and Robert Deniro and anyone else who ever made a mob movie. After all, blacks love those movies. Al Pacino and Robert Deniro don't care about the black community.

And the Kool Aid man, he doesn't care about the black community either. After all, if he did, he wouldn't push a product that contributed to obesity.

And the list goes on, and on, and on.

But not you, though. You really care about the black community. Good for you.


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> You either provide your age or your account will be closed. We have a rule about being 14 or older.



why didn't you just say that?

i thought i did have my age in there when joining.
i'll try again.


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## dmp (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> why didn't you just say that?
> 
> i thought i did have my age in there when joining.
> i'll try again.




You're about to get banned anyway...I'm not convinced you aren't a troll.


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## Said1 (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I guess we should get mad at Al Pacino and Robert Deniro and anyone else who ever made a mob movie. After all, blacks love those movies. Al Pacino and Robert Deniro don't care about the black community.
> 
> And the Kool Aid man, he doesn't care about the black community either. After all, if he did, he wouldn't push a product that contributed to obesity.
> 
> ...


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> You're about to get banned anyway...I'm not convinced you aren't a troll.




why am i a troll? because you don't agree with me?


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> why am i a troll? because you don't agree with me?


Hey, stay on topic. You'll last longer, little boy.


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I guess we should get mad at Al Pacino and Robert Deniro and anyone else who ever made a mob movie. After all, blacks love those movies. Al Pacino and Robert Deniro don't care about the black community.
> 
> And the Kool Aid man, he doesn't care about the black community either. After all, if he did, he wouldn't push a product that contributed to obesity.
> 
> ...




well even those italian mob movies had a bad influence for young italians, especially from the east coast. not much better. but gangster rap is more of a epidemic these days.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> well even those italian mob movies had a bad influence for young italians, especially from the east coast. not much better. but gangster rap is more of a epidemic these days.


You need to understand what you're talking about better before you go around spouting talking points you heard or read somewhere. You look unprepared and foolish.


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Hey, stay on topic. You'll last longer, little boy.




i take it you don't agree with me that ganster rap is a bad influence for too many black youths? maybe because you like it yourself and try and live the thug life?


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> i take it you don't agree with me that ganster rap is a bad influence for too many black youths? maybe because you like it yourself and try and live the thug life?


I think people should stop focusing on what is and what is not a bad influence and start focusing on how to take responsibility for themselves.

You have the psychological insight of a 13 year old.


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> You need to understand what you're talking about better before you go around spouting talking points you heard or read somewhere. You look unprepared and foolish.



that's your opinion. i question how much you get out into the real world and see what's going on? read the paper or watch the news?
myself? everyday.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> that's your opinion. i question how much you get out into the real world and see what's going on? read the paper or watch the news?
> myself? everyday.


I question your comprehension abilities... but then again, that's just my opinion. Seriously, where'd you get this from? Which pundit?


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## dmp (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I think people should stop focusing on what is and what is not a bad influence and start focusing on how to take responsibility for themselves.



DAMN, Clay...that's EXACTLY it.  Unless/Until Scarface can grasp that simple concept it's useless to debate with him/her.


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## scarface (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I think people should stop focusing on what is and what is not a bad influence and start focusing on how to take responsibility for themselves.
> 
> You have the psychological insight of a 13 year old.




well people generally aren't that smart, never have been never will be. not an excuse but their minds are too easy to condition. just like i'm sure yours is, to some degree even if not as bad as maybe most.

you sound like a 13 year old with wimpy comments like that.
why didn't you just call me a poopie head?


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> DAMN, Clay...that's EXACTLY it.  Unless/Until Scarface can grasp that simple concept it's useless to debate with him/her.


The other part of that post is pretty on-point as well. I wonder how long until he asks if I'm black.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> well people generally aren't that smart, never have been never will be. not an excuse but their minds are too easy to condition. just like i'm sure yours is, to some degree even if not as bad as maybe most.
> 
> you sound like a 13 year old with wimpy comments like that.
> why didn't you just call me a poopie head?


Ah yes, the "people aren't smart enough to take care of themselves so we'll just do it for them" argument.

It's good you feel you're enlightened enough to set the standards for those who don't meet the bar, in your eyes. It's tough being such an intellectual pillar of society, ain't it? Tell me, what should I have for lunch today? I'm too dumb to put together a balanced diet.


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## Mr. P (Mar 22, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> ... if i was black and some other black dude called me ****** i get pissed. ....
> :2guns:


No you most probably wouldn't, it is part of the black culture. It is acceptable in the proper context, believe it or not.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 22, 2006)

Mr. P said:
			
		

> No you most probably wouldn't, it is part of the black culture. It is acceptable in the proper context, believe it or not.


Shhh, he just wanted to type "******" a couple times on the library computer at school on his lunch break. Don't ruin his fun


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## Mr. P (Mar 22, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Shhh, he just wanted to type "******" a couple times on the library computer at school on his lunch break. Don't ruin his fun


  Okay..


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## Dan (Mar 22, 2006)

Mr. P is right. Using the n-word among black people is about the same as using "dude" among stoners, it's just part of the vocabulary. And for the most part, if they're cool with you, they probably wouldn't care if you used the word, too. It's just a word.



> believe it or not, other (non black) races listen to rap just as much as white.



It was a joke.



> and no offense but thinking that black gangster rappers don't realize how their words influence young blacks is incredibly ignorant. this old realization has been brought up several times for years directly to certain black gangster rappers through the media.



Yeah, I seem to remember when Connie Chung was interviewing Warren G about this topic. You do realize this is the year 2006, right, Scarface? I don't mind discussing it, but this topic is pretty much as old as the genre, so please don't act like you're breaking new ground by discussing it.


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## scarface (Mar 23, 2006)

Dan said:
			
		

> Mr. P is right. Using the n-word among black people is about the same as using "dude" among stoners, it's just part of the vocabulary. And for the most part, if they're cool with you, they probably wouldn't care if you used the word, too. It's just a word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i never said i was breaking new ground with this topic, i just brought it up, and just because some blacks call each other ****** as a friendship thing, doesn't mean they all do, and doesn't make it right either. why don't you go up to a older black guy and call him this like it's cool? video record it to.

i take it that you and a few others here are maybe too thin skinned for hot topics? maybe hits too close to home? i see alot of people who like to make excuses for why certain things are wrong or play denial because they can't handle truth or reality, so they make believe its perfect and happy go lucky. 
now i know you will replie with a one sided story about how it's alright to preach doing drive by's. even if nobody was influenced by this music, why would you preach to do it?


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## scarface (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Ah yes, the "people aren't smart enough to take care of themselves so we'll just do it for them" argument.
> 
> It's good you feel you're enlightened enough to set the standards for those who don't meet the bar, in your eyes. It's tough being such an intellectual pillar of society, ain't it? Tell me, what should I have for lunch today? I'm too dumb to put together a balanced diet.




i believe it. i wonder whats make people like you excuse gangster rap as being alright? maybe you're a socialpath? or live in a fantasy world?

go ahead now and make another little kid insult reply, you know will.

three two and...


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> i believe it. i wonder whats make people like you excuse gangster rap as being alright? maybe you're a socialpath? or live in a fantasy world?
> 
> go ahead now and make another little kid insult reply, you know will.
> 
> three two and...


Social path? wtf is that? Was it french toast stick day? Or pizza? Does your librarian know you're doing this? Tsk tsk tsk!


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

scarface said:
			
		

> i never said i was breaking new ground with this topic, i just brought it up, and just because some blacks call each other ****** as a friendship thing, doesn't mean they all do, and doesn't make it right either. why don't you go up to a older black guy and call him this like it's cool? video record it to.
> 
> i take it that you and a few others here are maybe too thin skinned for hot topics? maybe hits too close to home? i see alot of people who like to make excuses for why certain things are wrong or play denial because they can't handle truth or reality, so they make believe its perfect and happy go lucky.
> now i know you will replie with a one sided story about how it's alright to preach doing drive by's. even if nobody was influenced by this music, why would you preach to do it?


Using your logic, we should ban anything you deem to be unsavory. I take it you're no fan of Johnny Cash, either.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Using your logic, we should ban anything you deem to be unsavory. I take it you're no fan of Johnny Cash, either.



The only way I can cope with rap is to try to think of it as a completely different form of entertainment. Unfortunately it takes on the guise of music and adopts some of its accoutrements (CD's, Videos, Concerts, Band names, etc.) If you think of it not as music but something else its less annoying. 

I would imagine an Olympic Gold Medalist would turn on CNN and see poker or tractor pull and feel the same way, "This is not a sport".


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> The only way I can cope with rap is to try to think of it as a completely different form of entertainment. Unfortunately it takes on the guise of music and adopts some of its accoutrements (CD's, Videos, Concerts, Band names, etc.) If you think of it not as music but something else its less annoying.
> 
> I would imagine an Olympic Gold Medalist would turn on CNN and see poker or tractor pull and feel the same way, "This is not a sport".


It can be a form of music; it's just that majority of what receives airplay is 95% marketing. But that's no different than any other outlet of pop "music" in this country today. Trust me, there are rap/hip-hop artists who are stellar musicians.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> It can be a form of music; it's just that majority of what receives airplay is 95% marketing. But that's no different than any other outlet of pop "music" in this country today. Trust me, there are rap/hip-hop artists who are stellar musicians.



When I was young they told us music has melody, harmony and rhythm. Rap has only one of those. Therefore I don't consider it music. 

Whereas modern day pop country or R&B are definitely music, just bad examples of it.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> When I was young they told us music has melody, harmony and rhythm. Rap has only one of those. Therefore I don't consider it music.
> 
> Whereas modern day pop country or R&B are definitely music, just bad examples of it.


Ah you're one of those music-must-always-be-this kinds of people. Nothing like rigid definitions on forms of artistic expression.


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## Said1 (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Whereas modern day pop country or R&B are definitely music, *just bad examples of it*.



I was beginning to worry, until the bolded part.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Ah you're one of those music-must-always-be-this kinds of people. Nothing like rigid definitions on forms of artistic expression.



I have about 2000 CD's and 3000 LP's and I listen to every kind of music except rap. I don't like it. 

I've forgotten more about music than you'll ever know. 

I'm not insulting you because you like rap, don't insult me because I don't.


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> I have about 2000 CD's and 3000 LP's and I listen to every kind of music except rap. I don't like it.
> 
> I've forgotten more about music than you'll ever know.
> 
> I'm not insulting you because you like rap, don't insult me because I don't.




If I might be so bold...

Numbers don't impress.  I've slept with...perhaps 50 women in my life.  3 were there kinds of encounters dreams were made of. I could have had just those three and known more about women than the other 47 combined.


I don't think ANYONE cares if you like rap or not - just please, show the maturity to 'no-like it' for the right reasons.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

Said1 said:
			
		

> I was beginning to worry, until the bolded part.



I cracks me up to turn on the TV and hear some really watered down funk jam going on and then see the cowboy hats and boots. Oh yeah, this is country music. 

Or R&B. I love it when they mangle the national anthem with their vocal gymnastics, turning every syllable into an excruciating blur of arpeggios. 

Generally speaking, when music exists solely to fill a commercial void, it sucks.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> If I might be so bold...
> 
> Numbers don't impress.  I've slept with...perhaps 50 women in my life.  3 were there kinds of encounters dreams were made of. I could have had just those three and known more about women than the other 47 combined.
> 
> ...



OK here's why I don't like it. The music is produced by machines, not humans. The "vocalizing" is unmelodic and the tone of voice is monotonous. The subject matter of the lyrics is irrelevant unless you live in the ghetto or in some way identify with that lifestyle, which I don't. It advocates violence and degrades women, two things I don't relate to. And every time I have seen it performed live it has been some sad specimens screaming along with a DAT machine and taking up time and space that could be used by musicians. 

Maybe those are bad reasons, but they are my reasons.


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> OK here's why I don't like it. The music is produced by machines, not humans. The "vocalizing" is unmelodic and the tone of voice is monotonous. The subject matter of the lyrics is irrelevant unless you live in the ghetto or in some way identify with that lifestyle, which I don't. It advocates violence and degrades women, two things I don't relate to. And every time I have seen it performed live it has been some sad specimens screaming along with a DAT machine and taking up time and space that could be used by musicians.
> 
> Maybe those are bad reasons, but they are my reasons.




You're talking about one or two types of rap...at most. Rap transcends a few musical styles.   Digable Planets?  Fantastic...nobody can say they are anything but musicians/artists.  Think about this - strumming comes from a guitar - which is a tool for a human to use.  Digital music is also created using tools - just with a key board rather than strings.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> I have about 2000 CD's and 3000 LP's and I listen to every kind of music except rap. I don't like it.
> 
> I've forgotten more about music than you'll ever know.
> 
> I'm not insulting you because you like rap, don't insult me because I don't.


I'm insulting you no more than you're insulting me. Your I've-got-more-music-than-you piss fest is unimpressive.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> Digable Planets?  Fantastic...nobody can say they are anything but musicians/artists.



Yes they are, actually I am friends with one of the guys in that band. They are better than most because they actually play. 

In previous eras there was a continuity between generations of black musicians. Once they dropped their instruments their range of expression became seriously limited.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I'm insulting you no more than you're insulting me. Your I've-got-more-music-than-you piss fest is unimpressive.



You are the one who said I have preconceptions about what music is. I'm just saying that I have heard and enjoyed a wider variety of music than you even know exists. What's the big deal?


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> OK here's why I don't like it. The music is produced by machines, not humans. The "vocalizing" is unmelodic and the tone of voice is monotonous. The subject matter of the lyrics is irrelevant unless you live in the ghetto or in some way identify with that lifestyle, which I don't. It advocates violence and degrades women, two things I don't relate to. And every time I have seen it performed live it has been some sad specimens screaming along with a DAT machine and taking up time and space that could be used by musicians.
> 
> Maybe those are bad reasons, but they are my reasons.


They're reasons of ignorance. Not all rap degrades women. Not all rap advocates violence. Stop letting popular culture define your art forms.

If you want examples of electronic musicians in general, I can break down exactly how what they do requires a high level of musicianship.

I don't care if you don't like rap music; just don't run around perpetuating stereotypes when you clearly don't even understand the intricacies of it. You look old.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Yes they are, actually I am friends with one of the guys in that band. They are better than most because they actually play.
> 
> In previous eras there was a continuity between generations of black musicians. Once they dropped their instruments their range of expression became seriously limited.


Who?


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> You are the one who said I have preconceptions about what music is. I'm just saying that I have heard and enjoyed a wider variety of music than you even know exists. What's the big deal?


There's no way you could have verified that. Although, I suppose if you get to decide what _is_ and _isn't_ music, you'd probably win.


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Yes they are, actually I am friends with one of the guys in that band. They are better than most because they actually play.



So you DO like rap.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Who?



The black music scene. Although it's not entirely their fault or the fault of rap. A lot of the blame can be placed at the feet of the pharisees who stripped the schools of art and music funding. A kid with no instrument or training will never learn.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> You're talking about one or two types of rap...at most. Rap transcends a few musical styles.   Digable Planets?  Fantastic...nobody can say they are anything but musicians/artists.  Think about this - strumming comes from a guitar - which is a tool for a human to use.  Digital music is also created using tools - just with a key board rather than strings.


He's a tradionalist, which is fine. I actually like a live backing band over a produced track any day. But that doesn't mean anyone who works a turntable is musically incompetent, or lacking in ability.

Digable Planets are good stuff, they sample a lot of Art Blakey and Sonny Rollins, in case you ever want to hear where their backing tracks come from.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> The black music scene. Although it's not entirely their fault or the fault of rap. A lot of the blame can be placed at the feet of the pharisees who stripped the schools of art and music funding.


No I mean, who do you know in DP?


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> He's a tradionalist, which is fine. I actually like a live backing band over a produced track any day. But that doesn't mean anyone who works a turntable is musically incompetent, or lacking in ability.
> 
> Digable Planets are good stuff, they sample a lot of Art Blakey and Sonny Rollins, in case you ever want to hear where their backing tracks come from.




So they took those no-names and made their music GOOD.  That's my favourite part of Rap - taking otherwise lame songs/music, and adding zest.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> No I mean, who do you know in DP?



Bryan Jackson the keyboardist. He used to play with Gil Scott Heron.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> So they took those no-names and made their music GOOD.  That's my favourite part of Rap - taking otherwise lame songs/music, and adding zest.


Oh Darin, those guys are anything but lame. It just adds a different flare to things. If anything, rap and hip-hop are a musical tribute genre. Most people don't understand the thought that goes in to what people sample for their records. It's a sign of respect. I don't mean sampling like Will Smith sampling Stevie Wonder to butcher out Wild Wild West, either. (You did know that was a Stevie Wonder song, right? Men In Black is a Patrice Rushen song.)


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Oh Darin, those guys are anything but lame. It just adds a different flare to things. If anything, rap and hip-hop are a musical tribute genre. Most people don't understand the thought that goes in to what people sample for their records. It's a sign of respect. I don't mean sampling like Will Smith sampling Stevie Wonder to butcher out Wild Wild West, either. (You did know that was a Stevie Wonder song, right? Men In Black is a Patrice Rushen song.)




I wrote 'lame' to get a rise out of you...it's no fun when you reply back cool and collected....very selfish of you, I'd say.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Oh Darin, those guys are anything but lame.



If I'm not mistaken he be facetion on ya baby!


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Bryan Jackson the keyboardist. He used to play with Gil Scott Heron.


I had heard they reunited to go back on tour. I was sort of hoping for another album instead of a greatest hits repackage, but oh well.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> I wrote 'lame' to get a rise out of you...it's no fun when you reply back cool and collected....very selfish of you, I'd say.


Sorry. : How's Vanilli today?


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

Scarface, I think you have posted about a valid topic. I am interested in the effects of all media on society, because I am a mom, and because I believe that effect is huge and often negative. 

I also agree with the poster who said rap generally degrades women and highlights street violence. That may not be true of all rap, I would not know, but most the videos I do catch a glimpse of as I surf the TV channels surely do.  

I do wonder why a guy with the screen name Scarface would have a problem with any form of gangsta entertainment.      Perhaps you can explain.

Anyway, welcome to the board.


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Sorry. : How's Vanilli today?




Iron Maiden, thank you very much 

"Run to the Hills" at the moment...


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## 5stringJeff (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> OK here's why I don't like it. *The music is produced by machines, not humans.* The "vocalizing" is unmelodic and the tone of voice is monotonous. The subject matter of the lyrics is irrelevant unless you live in the ghetto or in some way identify with that lifestyle, which I don't. It advocates violence and degrades women, two things I don't relate to. And every time I have seen it performed live it has been some sad specimens screaming along with a DAT machine and taking up time and space that could be used by musicians.
> 
> Maybe those are bad reasons, but they are my reasons.



The bold part is right on.  Music is to be made by musicians, not machines.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

gop_jeff said:
			
		

> The bold part is right on.  Music is to be made by musicians, not machines.


An electric guitar is a machine. So is your electric bass.


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> An electric guitar is a machine. So is your electric bass.




Yup. As is a piano.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> An electric guitar is a machine. So is your electric bass.



Those kinds of machines are called "instruments". They don't make music just by plugging them in and pressing a button. 

It's a labor issue. If the average blues or Motown band had a drummer, a bass player, two guitarists, a keyboardist and a horn section, and a rap band has a DAT deck and a drum machine, that's a lot of musicians out of work. 

And if the music sucks as well that makes it even worse.


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Those kinds of machines are called "instruments". They don't make music just by plugging them in and pressing a button.
> 
> It's a labor issue. If the average blues or Motown band had a drummer, a bass player, two guitarists, a keyboardist and a horn section, and a rap band has a DAT deck and a drum machine, that's a lot of musicians out of work.
> 
> And if the music sucks as well that makes it even worse.




have you ever programmed a drum machine?


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> have you ever programmed a drum machine?



Yes of course I have, for demos. Then when I made the record I hired a drummer, because it sounds better and it's the right thing to do.


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Yes of course I have, for demos. Then when I made the record I hired a drummer, because it sounds better and it's the right thing to do.



Rep coming your way for that.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Those kinds of machines are called "instruments". They don't make music just by plugging them in and pressing a button.


Neither do synthesizers, keyboards, drum machines, etc. etc. etc.





			
				Nuc said:
			
		

> It's a labor issue. If the average blues or Motown band had a drummer, a bass player, two guitarists, a keyboardist and a horn section, and a rap band has a DAT deck and a drum machine, that's a lot of musicians out of work.
> 
> And if the music sucks as well that makes it even worse.


I don't disagree that there is shitty rap out there, but that doesn't mean that all of it is, or even a vast majority of it is. I do agree completely with your disapproval of the reduction of music programs in schools. The general public has a very low musical IQ. Have you ever heard of the Roots?


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## dmp (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Yes of course I have, for demos. Then when I made the record I hired a drummer, because it sounds better and it's the right thing to do.




So then of COURSE there was work involved.  You didn't just plug the thing in, did you?   Would you be defending the horse and carriage because the automobile was 'too easy'??


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Neither do synthesizers, keyboards, drum machines, etc. etc. etc.I don't disagree that there is shitty rap out there, but that doesn't mean that all of it is, or even a vast majority of it is. I do agree completely with your disapproval of the reduction of music programs in schools. The general public has a very low musical IQ. Have you ever heard of the Roots?



Actually a lot of composers and musicians are using GarageBand by Apple which generates backing tracks basically by itself. Then they add some lyrics and there you have it. 

I like the sound of musicians playing. 

I've seen the Roots play. Why?


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## Mr. P (Mar 23, 2006)

My 2 cents worth. No debate cuz Ill never change my opinion, I know Im right.  
"Rap" is noise, nothing more, and should never be used in the same sentence as Music. WHOOPS.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Mr. P said:
			
		

> My 2 cents worth. No debate cuz Ill never change my opinion, I know Im right.
> "Rap" is noise, nothing more, and should never be used in the same sentence as Music. WHOOPS.


Ok gramps


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Actually a lot of composers and musicians are using GarageBand by Apple which generates backing tracks basically by itself. Then they add some lyrics and there you have it.
> 
> I like the sound of musicians playing.
> 
> I've seen the Roots play. Why?


I think we could go on all day about the state of pop music.

Did you like the Roots?


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

dmp said:
			
		

> So then of COURSE there was work involved.  You didn't just plug the thing in, did you?   Would you be defending the horse and carriage because the automobile was 'too easy'??



Maybe I should take a look at the Billboard Top 200 and see what kind of music is selling. I think there is room for any and all kinds of music and processes for making that music. My personal taste differs from that of the public. I like instrumental music. I like music that is played live and recorded live. I like arrangements that use a variety of instruments. I like a lot of acoustic sounds. 

At times I like other things as well. 

I just seems to me that there is an overpreponderance of synthetic music created by one or two people and a few machines. For my taste it is overrepresented in the marketplace. And I think it's because people are too casual about what they expect from music. It's the musical equivalent of MacDonalds. But at least the people who eat at MacDonalds will (probably) not insist that the food is healthy and the equivalent of a good home cooked meal. Or a gourmet French feast.


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

I agree Mr. P- you are right.  :clap1:  

Anyone read _I am Charlotte Simmons_? Rap = rut, rut rut. (And not in the "you are stuck in a rut" sense). Rap appeals to the basest levels of the human psyche. You know, that area of the brain that probably tells you to eat, or to have sex. Or go to the bathroom.


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## Mr. P (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Ok gramps


Its funny. In the late sixties my great uncle complained of the current music.
I remember him saying, they only use 2 or 4 cords, thats not music. He hated it.
I found it difficult to understand.

His background? He played with Perry Como. Now I understand.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> I agree Mr. P- you are right.  :clap1:
> 
> Anyone read _I am Charlotte Simmons_? Rap = rut, rut rut. (And not in the "you are stuck in a rut" sense). Rap appeals to the basest levels of the human psyche. You know, that area of the brain that probably tells you to eat, or to have sex. Or go to the bathroom.


Thanks?


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Mr. P said:
			
		

> Its funny. In the late sixties my great uncle complained of the current music.
> I remember him saying, they only use 2 or 4 cords, thats not music. He hated it.
> I found it difficult to understand.
> 
> His background? He played with Perry Como. Now I understand.


Yeah blah blah blah. It's just traditionalist elitism. I can't wait to see what music I'll end up hating when I'm old because it's not conventional.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

Mr. P said:
			
		

> Its funny. In the late sixties my great uncle complained of the current music.
> I remember him saying, they only use 2 or 4 cords, thats not music. He hated it.
> I found it difficult to understand.
> 
> His background? He played with Perry Como. Now I understand.



There's always a generational shift and people can't understand the new generation's music. 

It's interesting how music devolved during the course of the twentieth century. It started out with orchestras which had an enormous amount of instruments and performers. Then big band jazz came about with less instruments and variety but still a lot. The next shift was towards small jazz groups, blues and country usually with about 4-7 musicians and starting to emphasize mainly guitars and drums. Then the Beatles and rock took over and it was only guitars and drums. Now the most popular form of music is rap and we don't even have guitars and drums, just drum machines and a couple of guys screaming. 

I know that's oversimplification but in broad terms that is a good portrayal of the winnowing of the sound spectrum among the dominant musical forms of the last 100 years or so.  

The tragedy to me is that this latest shift is eliminating musicians altogether. It's computer programmers and guys who shout. It may take talent to program a drum machine and a sequencer but it's not a real time process like playing an instrument. It's more like computer work. That's what I think is significant about the most recent generational shift.


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Yeah blah blah blah. It's just traditionalist elitism. I can't wait to see what music I'll end up hating when I'm old because it's not conventional.



Wait until you have a teenaged daughter.


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## Mr. P (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Yeah blah blah blah. It's just traditionalist elitism. I can't wait to see what music I'll end up hating when I'm old because it's not conventional.


LOL...The way it's going there won't be any music when you get old.


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

Mr. P said:
			
		

> LOL...The way it's going there won't be any music when you get old.



Ha! Could be. What do you think there will be instead? Grunting and banging on animal skins?


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> Wait until you have a teenaged daughter.


I've already warned my parents and girlfriend. I will either go on a 8 year vacation, or kill my children at age 10. Middle schoolers infuriate me.


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## Nuc (Mar 23, 2006)

Mr. P said:
			
		

> LOL...The way it's going there won't be any music when you get old.



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mr. P again.

You got that right. That's what the record companies and media conglomerates want. The next step in musical evolution (or devolution) is music that has no human element. That way the record companies can sell totally automated content to an ignorant and apathetic public without having to deal with pesky artists or pay royalties to anyone.


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I've already warned my parents and girlfriend. I will either go on a 8 year vacation, or kill my children at age 10. Middle schoolers infuriate me.



Por que? 

(My little homage)


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> Por que?
> 
> (My little homage)


Lack of patience.


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Lack of patience.



You can't live with them, and you can't kill them.

Carry on...


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> You can't live with them, and you can't kill them.
> 
> Carry on...


Exactly. Hence the vacation. Now to find someone to dump the little bastards off on. Someone with... experience.


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Exactly. Hence the vacation. Now to find someone to dump the little bastards off on. Someone with... experience.



Minus those romantic boat rides, though.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> Minus those romantic boat rides, though.


True enough... hey, _YOU'VE _ got experience...


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> True enough... hey, _YOU'VE _ got experience...



 :spank3:


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## Mr. P (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> There's always a generational shift and people can't understand the new generation's music.
> 
> It's interesting how music devolved during the course of the twentieth century. It started out with orchestras which had an enormous amount of instruments and performers. Then big band jazz came about with less instruments and variety but still a lot. The next shift was towards small jazz groups, blues and country usually with about 4-7 musicians and starting to emphasize mainly guitars and drums. Then the Beatles and rock took over and it was only guitars and drums. Now the most popular form of music is rap and we don't even have guitars and drums, just drum machines and a couple of guys screaming.
> 
> ...


Sure that make sense. Programing a machine to play sound, but eliminating the creator/artist from what makes Music. Sad.

I taught my daughter about music on the way to an from school. Id listen to oldies/classical and a little country. To keep her attention Id  play a game, "who can pick out the most instruments". She loved it! Yes, she has heard rap, and for a short spell wanted to listen to it,  Im sure she did when she was with friends.
Now 18, she loves all kinds of music, and Ive never known her to buy a rap cd.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 23, 2006)

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> :spank3:


You can beat the little shitheads all you want, _I_ won't mind


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## Mr. P (Mar 23, 2006)

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> Ha! Could be. What do you think there will be instead? Grunting and banging on animal skins?


And gun-fire too!


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## Abbey Normal (Mar 23, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> You can beat the little shitheads all you want, _I_ won't mind




:rotflmao:


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## 5stringJeff (Mar 23, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> There's always a generational shift and people can't understand the new generation's music.
> 
> It's interesting how music devolved during the course of the twentieth century. It started out with orchestras which had an enormous amount of instruments and performers. Then big band jazz came about with less instruments and variety but still a lot. The next shift was towards small jazz groups, blues and country usually with about 4-7 musicians and starting to emphasize mainly guitars and drums. Then the Beatles and rock took over and it was only guitars and drums. Now the most popular form of music is rap and we don't even have guitars and drums, just drum machines and a couple of guys screaming.
> 
> ...



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nuc again.


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## Dan (Mar 23, 2006)

Truth be told, I don't really like rap any more than anybody else on this board, but I will defend electronic music til I'm blue in the face.

I offer an example: The Flaming Lips' "The Soft Bulletin". Not only is it one of the most unique and moving albums of the past 10 years, but it was also created almost entirely with synthesizers, keyboards, etc. In interviews, it's been said that an actual performance of most of the songs would require well over forty musicians. While that would definitely be great to see/hear, it doesn't make much sense when Stephen Drozd can just create the sounds on a synthesizer.


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