# 'Bullying' in the NFL?



## Unkotare (Nov 5, 2013)

I can't believe there isn't already a thread about this. Bullying is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players. Weird.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/s...e-nfl-a-question-of-hazing-or-abuse.html?_r=0

This Incognito head-case sounds like a real POS.


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## R.C. Christian (Nov 5, 2013)

This subject has gay all around it.


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## Unkotare (Nov 5, 2013)

R.C. Christian said:


> This subject has gay all around it.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 5, 2013)

Incognito has a long history of abuse.


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## Unkotare (Nov 5, 2013)

He needs to _be_ history from the NFL for good.


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## Unkotare (Nov 5, 2013)

And now, because of this Incognito asshole, the NFL is going to be 'politiced' into mandatory sensitivity training and a whole new set of rules governing the behavior of grown men. The flaccid fools who have been trying to get rid of football entirely will be all excited. Look for them on the Sunday talking shows soon.


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## Papageorgio (Nov 5, 2013)

What a strange story. Incognito, is a real piece of work, I hope no one will pick him up after he is released.


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## Unkotare (Nov 5, 2013)

Papageorgio said:


> What a strange story. Incognito, is a real piece of work, I hope no one will pick him up after he is released.




If the Dolphins had any players with character, they'd be picking him up off the street behind the stadium.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 5, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW9C4qi5Y80]Richie Incognito DROPS N-BOMB ON VIDEO ... In Crazy Bar Rage - YouTube[/ame]


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 5, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> I can't believe there isn't already a thread about this. Bullying is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players. Weird.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/s...e-nfl-a-question-of-hazing-or-abuse.html?_r=0
> 
> This Incognito head-case sounds like a real POS.



I disagree,Unkotare.  Bullying can take place in the work place, at home, at college, a university or a high school. Even on the internet forums such as facebook.    Bullying is not just about little kids in school.  Wake up.  A rookie in the NFL should not be bullied into paying a $54,000.00 plus food bill because he happens to be a "rookie"..   If it were you that had been bullied into paying that tab, you'd get the picture real fast.  

- Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 5, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> He needs to _be_ history from the NFL for good.



Wrong the bullies need to be made history from the NFL for good. Here's hoping it happens real fast! 

 - Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 5, 2013)

R.C. Christian said:


> This subject has gay all around it.



The football player is question is not gay.  Since when is it alright to bully gay people, R.C.? Is that what you are implying?  If you are, you are wrong. It is never okay to bully anyone. For any reason.   Period.  

- Jeri


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Unkotare said:
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> > I can't believe there isn't already a thread about this. Bullying is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players. Weird.
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 What exactly do you disagree with?


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Unkotare said:
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Um....what is it you think you are disagreeing with me about?


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Unkotare said:


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What is so confusing?  You said, Bully is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players.  I disagreed with you.  Why are you confused? 

Let me give you this story I saw on a video tape not too long ago.  A woman in the street beating up her much smaller husband while the neighbors and their very own children looked on.  Was this man being bullied?  Yes.  By his own wife.  Unusual?  Yes.  True? Yes.  Truth is stranger than fiction.  Do not be so surprised, Unkotare.  And on the matter of rookie players being bullied into paying restaurant tabs of $58,000.00 plus?  I think not!  I would demand a refund and name the people publicly who forced them to comply with such a thing.  It happened to more than one rookie player.  They are sure to get it after this story is finished.  - Jeri


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## Spiderman (Nov 6, 2013)

There is something pathetic about a very large grown man crying about bullies.


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

Richie Incognito has support in Dolphins' locker room - NFL.com

Wow, Ritchie sounds like a wild and crazy guy. Too funny. Another case of PC run amuck?


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Spiderman said:


> There is something pathetic about a very large grown man crying about bullies.



When you are bullied into picking up a $58,000.00 plus dinner / bar tab for the team because you are rookie?  You can tell us about it.  Until then?  I don't think there is any way you can make such a claim.  Unless you are in their shoes, you really do not know anything at all.  Let's be honest here.  - Jeri


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## Spiderman (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Spiderman said:
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Let's be honest here.

What would have happened if he didn't pick up the tab?

Nothing.


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## Spiderman (Nov 6, 2013)

[youtube]XvijyBIgazE[/youtube]


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 6, 2013)

Decus said:


> Richie Incognito has support in Dolphins' locker room - NFL.com
> 
> Wow, Ritchie sounds like a wild and crazy guy. Too funny. Another case of PC run amuck?



That guy speaks for himself not the team. And he said it was a serious situation.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Spiderman said:


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Then why did he pick up the tab?  In fact why did any of the rookies pick up the tab if that were true? ( no one refused )


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 6, 2013)

Spiderman said:


> There is something pathetic about a very large grown man crying about bullies.



There is something pathetic about a guy that gets kicked off a football team 6 times.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Here is a good question.  What would be the motive for lying about something like this?  There has to be a motive.  If there is no motive then it falls apart.   So the motive is they want to be hated by the other NFL team members?  The motive is they want to ruin their own careers by bringing to light something that makes the NFL look bad?  The motive is they don't have enough enemies and wish to add more?  Motive anyone?


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

I read the article, it says basically the jury is still out on whether team mates will support him or not.  Here is my problem with that......... who cares?  What does it matter whether the other team mates support him or not?  If he doesn't stand and conquer this thing no one else behind him will.  Public opinion is a damnable thing.  I cannot think of anything that will cause someone to make the wrong decision in a matter more often than peer pressure.  I wouldn't cave into that thing if I had a tidal wave of opposition coming at me on it. If he is right, he's right.  He needs to make a stand and hold on. If he doesn't?  The other rookies behind him won't stand a chance. He is going to have to do it.  My 3 cents. 

- Jeri


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 6, 2013)

In defense of Richie Incognito:

*Dolphins coaches told Richie Incognito to toughen up Jonathan Martin*

Read more: Dolphins coaches told Richie Incognito to toughen up Jonathan Martin: report - NY Daily News


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

NY Giants? Antrel Rolle has advice for Jonathan Martin: ?stand up for yourself?* - NY Daily News

I believe Rolle has missed the point here.   The man is standing up for himself even though it wasn't on their time table.  Being forced to pick up a tab for something he was not even attending, being bullied by another team member at the behest of the coaches, these things must be stood up to and he is doing it now. So I applaud his courage and would encourage him to keep standing and do not lay down for anyone.  He cannot afford to because what he is doing right now will define what other rookies tomorrow will do.  It only takes one to make a stand.  Then the whole thing will fall apart.  Bulllies are really adept at creating an illusion of power, authority, that in reality they do not have at all. You see how fast this bully rolled over and exposed the bullies who put him up to it? It is only a matter of time before the truth comes out.  They always cave when the pressure is on.  Bullies do not have any real power or authority.  They just want you to believe they have it.  The fact is these coaches are replacable and by all means they should be replaced.   If someone is abusing their authority they should lose it.  No one is expendable and that includes coaches.  The owners will do what is in their own best interest here. You can be sure of that. - Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> In defense of Richie Incognito:
> 
> *Dolphins coaches told Richie Incognito to toughen up Jonathan Martin*
> 
> Read more: Dolphins coaches told Richie Incognito to toughen up Jonathan Martin: report - NY Daily News



There is no excuse for Richie Incognito.  Bullying and harrassment is not part of his job description.  He was hired to play ball.  So let him play ball or get out of the way and make room for someone who will. ( without bullying team mates )  He should have stood up to the coaches and refused.  That is where it fell apart. He's weak.  Bullies are weak. That is why the coaches chose him for this assignment.  Get it?   - Jeri


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 6, 2013)

All workers are not to be subjected to such abuse in an unionized work place.

End of story.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Start at the top and clean house.  Make an example out of that team and then the entire NFL will fall into line. Anyone who thinks this is happening inside one team and is an isolated case is deceiving themselves.  This is an attitude / a stronghold and it has to be utterly demolished.   - Jeri


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

The Dolphins are trying to cover their ass over this PC bullshit and the negative publicity that is being generated. This is a case of rookie hazing - nothing more.

_"If the league finds the Dolphins were aware of the alleged harassment and failed to act, Martin could have a grievance on the grounds of an unsafe workplace &#8211; a significant issue for any union. And if the Dolphins failed to follow any terms of the collective bargaining agreement in suspending Incognito, he could have a grievance as well."_

NFL Players Association will support 'all players' in Dolphins mess


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

You might want to consider outlawing the game, because it is violent and thrives on toughness - both mental and physical. Some people can embrace it and others can't:

""How is bullying something that's even mentioned regarding the NFL?" Williams wondered. "Because that's kind of what we're taught to do -- at least on the field -- is to bully the guy across from us so we can win the football game."

Ricky Williams: Maybe Martin doesn't belong in NFL - NFL.com


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Decus said:


> You might want to consider outlawing the game, because it is violent and thrives on toughness - both mental and physical. Some people can embrace it and others can't:
> 
> ""How is bullying something that's even mentioned regarding the NFL?" Williams wondered. "Because that's kind of what we're taught to do -- at least on the field -- is to bully the guy across from us so we can win the football game."
> 
> Ricky Williams: Maybe Martin doesn't belong in NFL - NFL.com



ON the field.  Not off it, Decus.  Outlaw hazing and bullying off the field?  Absolutely.  It should have never been tolerated to begin with.  Get rid of it!  - Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Decus said:


> The Dolphins are trying to cover their ass over this PC bullshit and the negative publicity that is being generated. This is a case of rookie hazing - nothing more.
> 
> _"If the league finds the Dolphins were aware of the alleged harassment and failed to act, Martin could have a grievance on the grounds of an unsafe workplace  a significant issue for any union. And if the Dolphins failed to follow any terms of the collective bargaining agreement in suspending Incognito, he could have a grievance as well."_
> 
> NFL Players Association will support 'all players' in Dolphins mess



This is a case of breaking the law.  I hope the victims are compensated.  Once Martin is vindicated the others will step up and tell their stories.  Just wait. This is an avalanche coming down the mountain here.  You've heard nothing yet.  I'm sure.  - Jeri


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

Here is a very thoughtful radio interview with Ricky Williams, who in fact played with Richie:

Ricky Williams says Miami situation comes down to lack of leadership


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Decus said:
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> > The Dolphins are trying to cover their ass over this PC bullshit and the negative publicity that is being generated. This is a case of rookie hazing - nothing more.
> ...



Martin's mother is an attorney specializing in labor law. Is it possible that Martin is setting this up as a lawsuit? I can see a big payday but no real harm to Martin. Time for some serious tort reform.


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

Another radio interview with a former player that knows Ritchie:

Kirk Morrison looks at Richie Incognito's side of the situation


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

The voice mails sent by Richie to Martin were back in April.......April - some eight months earlier. This is really starting to smell like Martin doesn't have what it takes to play in the NFL and is looking for a payday.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 6, 2013)

Decus said:


> The voice mails sent by Richie to Martin were back in April.......April - some eight months earlier. This is really starting to smell like Martin doesn't have what it takes to play in the NFL and is looking for a payday.



What? He started for the Dolphins.


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## rightwinger (Nov 6, 2013)

Decus said:


> The Dolphins are trying to cover their ass over this PC bullshit and the negative publicity that is being generated. This is a case of rookie hazing - nothing more.
> 
> _"If the league finds the Dolphins were aware of the alleged harassment and failed to act, Martin could have a grievance on the grounds of an unsafe workplace  a significant issue for any union. And if the Dolphins failed to follow any terms of the collective bargaining agreement in suspending Incognito, he could have a grievance as well."_
> 
> NFL Players Association will support 'all players' in Dolphins mess



Report: Coaches wanted Incognito to toughen up Martin | ProFootballTalk


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 6, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Decus said:
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> > The Dolphins are trying to cover their ass over this PC bullshit and the negative publicity that is being generated. This is a case of rookie hazing - nothing more.
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How smart is it to ask Incognito,knowing his history, to toughen someone up?


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Decus said:
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> > The voice mails sent by Richie to Martin were back in April.......April - some eight months earlier. This is really starting to smell like Martin doesn't have what it takes to play in the NFL and is looking for a payday.
> ...



The Dolphin offensive line sucks....the worst in the league this season. Martin started in all games this season. The O line he plays on gave up 35 sacks in the first seven games. Pathetic.


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## rightwinger (Nov 6, 2013)

The NFL players will learn what the fraternities learned. Hazing is no longer accepted. Coaching staffs looking the other way while younger players are abused will no longer be accepted

Does Hazing make you a better football player?


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## Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

Hazing can and has served as an initiation rite and as a means of integrating a group. It can help to build a sense of unity with others and reinforce a team attitude. Basic training in certain branches of the military cause recruits to undergo extreme hardship to determine whether the person is worthy of being a team member. The exercises do not serve to make the individual a better soldier but to ascertain whether they are worthy of being a member of the team and if others can rely on them to step up. In this context, hazing can contribute to team building. Because football is a team sport, and teams, not individual players win games, my answer is a yes.


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## High_Gravity (Nov 6, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> I can't believe there isn't already a thread about this. Bullying is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players. Weird.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/s...e-nfl-a-question-of-hazing-or-abuse.html?_r=0
> 
> This Incognito head-case sounds like a real POS.



Bullying exists everywhere, Kobe Bryant bullied Dwight Howard for a whole year in LA last year.


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## Connery (Nov 6, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Bullying exists everywhere, Kobe Bryant bullied Dwight Howard for a whole year in LA last year.



I agree, I have even seen it on internet message boards....


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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I am not "surprised," thanks. I didn't say this kind of behavior doesn't take place, but that the term "bullying" is associated with little kids in school rather than big, tough pro football players. Your didactic response was odd.


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Decus said:


> Too funny. Another case of PC run amuck?





Have you seen the texts and voicemail this psycho sent to Martin?


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> NY Giants? Antrel Rolle has advice for Jonathan Martin: ?stand up for yourself?* - NY Daily News
> 
> I believe Rolle has missed the point here.   The man is standing up for himself even though it wasn't on their time table.





Did you ever play football? Or any sport?


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## High_Gravity (Nov 6, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> Decus said:
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> > Too funny. Another case of PC run amuck?
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People won't care unless its something that offends them personally, so alot of people think the texts and voicemails are no big deal and Martin should get over it.


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Some of the texts included racial slurs, and in one he threatened to punch the guy's mother in the mouth. Anyone who thinks that kind of shit is "funny" has something seriously fucking wrong with them.


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## Pop23 (Nov 6, 2013)

Veteran to rookie: Pick up this meal tab

Rookie to Veteran: No

Happens every day at every level of sport

Blown way out of proportion


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Decus said:


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And you are now slandering the victim rather than placing the blame where it belongs because.....................?


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


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I care and I am telling you plenty of other people out there care too!  What happened to Martin is happening to others and he has got to stand his ground and see it through. He has to.  It is bullying, Gravity. It is a HUGE deal.  HUGE!  - Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Pop23 said:


> Veteran to rookie: Pick up this meal tab
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> Rookie to Veteran: No
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Not true.  These rookies are being forced to pick up dinner and bar tabs of excess $58,000.00.  Even when they are not present and in another state!   This is robbery!  Please.  Tell this to someone who will believe it. Not me.  No one says, Bully me out of $58,000.00 today because I feel like being robbed!   No one. 

-Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> Jeremiah said:
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> > NY Giants? Antrel Rolle has advice for Jonathan Martin: ?stand up for yourself?* - NY Daily News
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How would this be relative to identifying a situation of Bullying?  Wouldn't it be better to say, have you ever been the victim of a bully?  How about in the work place?  In the business world?  There you go... that is the line of questioning for that one!  - Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Unkotare said:


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Whereas I find your response obtuse not to mention the part about bullying being associated with "little kids".. what world are you living in anyhow?   - Jeri


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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Answer the question.


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## Pop23 (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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Bull. The guys an nfl lineman. Nobody put a gun to his head. That's theft. Not saying no is foolishness. Nothing more, nothing less


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Connery said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Anyone who is caught doing it should be confronted about it publicly.  I do not think anyone wants to be known as a bully when it comes right down to it, Connery.  When I was administator of some message boards which I owned some years ago I noticed that the people who contacted my Moderators and Admin  with reports and filed complaints against others?  They were the exact same people bullying people on the boards!  I couldn't get over that one. 

 It never ceased to amaze me how they didn't recognize what they were doing but the truth is?  They didn't!  Those who did, didn't care...  they would even try to manipulate ME into doing what they wanted done!  lol!  You just can't make it up. I'm telling you.  I am happy to never admin or moderate a board again as long as I live!  The bully loves to pretend that they are the real victim.  It's classic!!! Some even try to appoint their own moderators so they can control it from that end.  Makes you wonder if they have a life!  

 - Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 6, 2013)

Pop23 said:


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Thas is your opinion.  Everyone has one.  Mine disagrees with yours.  It isn't "Bull".  It is my opinion.  He was robbed.  - Jeri


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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Answer the question.


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## High_Gravity (Nov 6, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> Some of the texts included racial slurs, and in one he threatened to punch the guy's mother in the mouth. Anyone who thinks that kind of shit is "funny" has something seriously fucking wrong with them.



Some people think its funny and no big deal.


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## High_Gravity (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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Thats typical behavior.


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 6, 2013)

Failure of the Miami leadership, big time.


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## Papageorgio (Nov 6, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Unkotare said:
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True and the NFL has been bullying Jacksonville and Tampa Bay.


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## Pop23 (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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Robbery is a CRIME. Giving your money FREELY is not. 

As in my previous example he had the option to say NO. At 300 lbs, that's a mighty BIG OPTION.


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## Desperado (Nov 6, 2013)

So far this season Miami's Offensive line has allowed 35 sacks of the quarterback.
Both Incognito and Martin play on the offensive line which is supposed to protect Tannehill.
Neither Incognito or Martin played last Thursday when Miami beat the Bengals. It was also the first time this year that Tannehill was sacked less than 4 times in a game.  Seems that getting rid of both of these "Offensive Linemen" is good for the Dolphins.


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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Those are not the question I asked. Answer the question I asked. Why the trepidation?


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## Unkotare (Nov 6, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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I don't think you understand what the word "obtuse" means, or how to follow a conversation.


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## Decus (Nov 7, 2013)

Martin is a victim? Really? Doesn't this seem strange?

_"In my mind I think it was something that was taken advantage of."

"Asked to clarify his point about Martin "laughing" at the voicemail, Hartline said that it was being "passed around" at one point in time as a joke."

""I just remember I thought [the voicemail] was being passed around as a joke," Hartline said."

"He echoed Tannehill's sentiments that the two players were friends and said they were "always playing around.""_

Brian Hartline says Jonathan Martin was 'laughing' at voicemail - CBSSports.com


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## Politico (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> I can't believe there isn't already a thread about this. Bullying is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players. Weird.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/s...e-nfl-a-question-of-hazing-or-abuse.html?_r=0
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> This Incognito head-case sounds like a real POS.



I can't believe men have become such a bunch of pussies. I am so glad we met. There aren't many of you left.

That is a direct quote from the mrs.


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## Decus (Nov 7, 2013)

For the sake of argument, and in light of the support that is being heard from both present and former Dolphin players that spent time with Ritchie; saying that he is not a racist and a good guy, several points are worth considering.

The text messages that are central to this charge of bullying were actually sent in April - 8 months ago.


Dolphin teammates repeatedly refer to Ritchie and Martin as friends.


Is it possible to imagine that the sequence of events leading to Martin leaving the team might have been along these lines?:

-Richie and Martin are friends

-In April Richie sends texts to get Martin ready for the upcoming season (a bad joke but no intention to do harm)

-Martin and Dolphin teammates laugh about the texts

-Martin is the 2013 season starter and has difficulty playing at the NFL level

-On October 3rd, after a high number of sacks Richie makes a statement to the press that if the O line doesn't improve everyone on the O line should be fired

-Number of sacks rise to 35 and Martin has doubts about his NFL future

-Momma Martin says don't worry dear, I can sue the Dolphin organization and perhaps the NFL for a large sum of money. Bullying sounds like a winning argument because it is presently a hot topic (news of recent deaths due to bullying)

-Martin starts to see a doctor about anxiety issues to help his mother build a case

Richie Incognito: Fire 'Fins linemen if we allow 72 sacks - NFL.com

Watch and see. This may not prove to be far from the truth.


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## Desperado (Nov 7, 2013)

Decus said:


> For the sake of argument, and in light of the support that is being heard from both present and former Dolphin players that spent time with Ritchie; saying that he is not a racist and a good guy, several points are worth considering.
> 
> The text messages that are central to this charge of bullying were actually sent in April - 8 months ago.
> 
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I believe you maybe on to something.... The more that comes out on this the less it makes sense.  
One thing for sure is that no matter the outcome Martin will never play in the NFL again.
If he though he was getting bullied by his offensive line teammates, wait til he sees how the players on the opposing defensive line bully him now.


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 7, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Spiderman said:
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You're really skewing that situation.

The bill wasn't that high but close enough, the player was hardly forced into it, veterans chipped in an undisclosed but probably significant amount, the owner acknowledges to making a call and having the bill significantly reduced, and the player signed a $12M contract long before then.


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## deaddogseye (Nov 7, 2013)

i think this is all being blown somewhat - though not entirely - out of proportion. The fact is an NFL team while subject to the same laws is also an inherently different working environment than a public library for example. There may be some consequence of this but it wont be some game changing earth shattering development. 

What this shows is that when the non sports media gets a hold of these issues they really dont offer a very good or realistic perspective. I understand that Richie Incognito wont be invited to the next big Embassy Party in Washington DC but so what. Thats irrelevant. Remeber the Riley Cooper incident and what a big thing that was? The national media had a field day with it. How big a deal is it now? When he scored his 2nd or 3rd TD last game a bunch of his black teammates were all over him. This may be more complex on the individual level but it will not be a significant , sport changing event nor should it be. 

And the bottom line that all the articles condemning the NFL ignore is that this is a $10 billion sport that is expected to be a $15 billion sport within about 5 years. The public loves it and we all know this "black eye" wont cost the league a dime (ok it may cost the Dolphins something - but small change in the scheme of things) -- and thats all that really matters.


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> Some of the texts included racial slurs, and in one he threatened to punch the guy's mother in the mouth. Anyone who thinks that kind of shit is "funny" has something seriously fucking wrong with them.



I think this is silly.  

People say stuff like this to close friends and family members all the time.  I don't know if I have ever called my brother's by their first names.  It's just "hey, where's cock face?".


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## KevinWestern (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> I can't believe there isn't already a thread about this. Bullying is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players. Weird.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/s...e-nfl-a-question-of-hazing-or-abuse.html?_r=0
> 
> This Incognito head-case sounds like a real POS.



Football is a high contact, physical sport filled with a bunch of undereducated, testosterone-saturated men who beat the shit out of each other every week and enjoy it. OF COURSE there's going to be bullying and hazing, especially when considering the fact that every single year a new class of young players are systematically injected into the league and must quickly figure out their place on the hierarchy. 

Personally, I think Incognito's an idiot but at the end of the day these are grown adults we're talking and I place a great deal of the blame on Martin for simply not saying "no". Incognito - by law - cannot physically assault Martin, or force him to pay a bill he didn't owe, or threaten him or his family. Martin should have dealt with this like an adult.

Racial slurs? Tell him to stop. If the slurs are real and extreme, I'm sure there's plenty of other black players on the team who would back Martin up.


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## manifold (Nov 7, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the texts included racial slurs, and in one he threatened to punch the guy's mother in the mouth. Anyone who thinks that kind of shit is "funny" has something seriously fucking wrong with them.
> ...



According to his black teammates, Incognito was an "honorary" black man and they didn't mind him using the n-word.


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## Decus (Nov 7, 2013)

deaddogseye said:


> i think this is all being blown somewhat - though not entirely - out of proportion. The fact is an NFL team while subject to the same laws is also an inherently different working environment than a public library for example. There may be some consequence of this but it wont be some game changing earth shattering development.
> 
> What this shows is that when the non sports media gets a hold of these issues they really dont offer a very good or realistic perspective. I understand that Richie Incognito wont be invited to the next big Embassy Party in Washington DC but so what. Thats irrelevant. Remeber the Riley Cooper incident and what a big thing that was? The national media had a field day with it. How big a deal is it now? When he scored his 2nd or 3rd TD last game a bunch of his black teammates were all over him. This may be more complex on the individual level but it will not be a significant , sport changing event nor should it be.
> 
> And the bottom line that all the articles condemning the NFL ignore is that this is a $10 billion sport that is expected to be a $15 billion sport within about 5 years. The public loves it and we all know this "black eye" wont cost the league a dime (ok it may cost the Dolphins something - but small change in the scheme of things) -- and thats all that really matters.



I agree that it has become a huge financial entreprise but this may be the very reason the game is destined to change. Needing to be more mainstream the NFL is far more sensitive to public issues than it was in the past. The very visible support recently provided to breast cancer is one such example. Detection and finding a cure for breast cancer is certianly an important issue, however many people. myself included saw the NFL's effort as more of a PR move for the NFL than a long-term stance in support of finding a cure.

I'm afraid that although it may very well become a $15 billion dollar sport, it will also become a very different game.


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## Desperado (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> Some of the texts included racial slurs, and in one he threatened to punch the guy's mother in the mouth. Anyone who thinks that kind of shit is "funny" has something seriously fucking wrong with them.



Well apparently Martin himself thought it was funny according to other players.
Jonathan Martin Was &#8216;Laughing&#8217; at Richie Incognito&#8217;s Vulgar Voice Mail, Teammate Brian Hartline Says

Brian Hartline spoke to reporters Wednesday about the vulgar and apparently racially charged voice mail that has become the centerpiece of the investigation thus far, saying that Martin originally did not seem at all offended by Incognito&#8217;s words. *&#8220;This is the same guy that was laughing about this voice mail at one point in time, first of all*,&#8221; Hartline said of Martin, via NFL.com. &#8220;Second of all, I believe that if you look through the whole voice mail, there&#8217;s some things said that you probably shouldn&#8217;t say in general, friends or not friends. But I know for a fact, that I&#8217;ve said things to my friends that I kind of wish I&#8217;ve never said to, either.&#8221;

Read more at: Jonathan Martin Was ?Laughing? at Richie Incognito?s Vulgar Voice Mail, Teammate Brian Hartline Says | Miami Dolphins | NESN.com


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## Decus (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > I can't believe there isn't already a thread about this. Bullying is something you associate with little kids in school, not among professional football players. Weird.
> ...



I agree with you that aggressiveness permeates all facets of the sport. I also agree that a bully has to be put down. I have real doubts however if Martin was trully a victim in this instance.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 7, 2013)

Decus said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Yea, I think there was a lot of factors involved. I don't buy the "victim" thing either...


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 7, 2013)

> Is it possible to imagine that the sequence of events leading to Martin leaving the team might have been along these lines?



No.


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## manifold (Nov 7, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> > Is it possible to imagine that the sequence of events leading to Martin leaving the team might have been along these lines?
> 
> 
> 
> No.



It's actually surprisingly easy if you try. No kidding.


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## Decus (Nov 7, 2013)

manifold said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > > Is it possible to imagine that the sequence of events leading to Martin leaving the team might have been along these lines?
> ...



Thanks, that made me laugh.


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## hangover (Nov 7, 2013)

Supposedly Incognito was on a lot of teams "do not draft" list because of his personality disorders. Also, supposedly Incognito and Martin were best friends. But sticking any player with a $30,000.00 dinner check is definitely over the top. More like extortion. Not only is the NFL going to get a black eye over this, but I won't be surprised to see congress get involved. Harassment in the work place was just voted on today in the Senate.


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Football is a high contact, physical sport filled with a bunch of undereducated [sic], testosterone-saturated men who beat the shit out of each other every week and enjoy it. .





"Under educated"?


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 7, 2013)

hangover said:


> Supposedly Incognito was on a lot of teams "do not draft" list because of his personality disorders. Also, supposedly Incognito and Martin were best friends. But sticking any player with a $30,000.00 dinner check is definitely over the top. More like extortion. Not only is the NFL going to get a black eye over this, but I won't be surprised to see congress get involved. Harassment in the work place was just voted on today in the Senate.



That was only one dinner tab.. there was a another story in the news links on this thread about a rookie being forced to pick up a tab of over 50,000.00 and this was the teams bar tab being included. In that instance I believe they said the rookie who paid the bill was not even present at the dinner.  It is extortion. I agree.   My sons favorite team is the Dolphins and he feels very angry over the treatment of Martin and believes the coaches should be fired.   He also hopes Martin brings a lawsuit and sues the owners for allowing such practices to go on.

  I believe whatever it takes to get the NFL cleaned up?  They should do it.  I do hope that Martin will make sure to file charges against these coaches and the players involved and that these people will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The example must be set.  This is a workplace environment and as such they need to comply with the laws of the land.  Just as Libary workers are expected to do.  No difference.  The NFL has a tremendous opportunity to say zero tolerance to bullies by making a campaign out of this and cleaning it out from within their own ranks.  I hope they will step up to the plate and do just that.  This story has deeply troubled many people I believe.   I'm looking forward to finding out what happens to these coaches and Incognito also.  - Jeri


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## hangover (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Football is a high contact, physical sport filled with a bunch of undereducated [sic], testosterone-saturated men who beat the shit out of each other every week and enjoy it. .
> ...


More like fake educated. Dexter Manley had a degree and couldn't even read.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



No trepidation, I just do not feel it is any of your business.   Understand?  It is has no bearing on the discussion anyhow, Unkotare.  Get back on the topic please.  -Jeri


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

hangover said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...





About half of all NFL players have college degrees. That's more than the general public.


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Jeremiah said:
> ...





You just answered the question and revealed why you are afraid to address it directly.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 7, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> hangover said:
> 
> 
> > Supposedly Incognito was on a lot of teams "do not draft" list because of his personality disorders. Also, supposedly Incognito and Martin were best friends. But sticking any player with a $30,000.00 dinner check is definitely over the top. More like extortion. Not only is the NFL going to get a black eye over this, but I won't be surprised to see congress get involved. Harassment in the work place was just voted on today in the Senate.
> ...



To be clear it is against the law as it comes under "creating a hostile work environment".. the team owners are liable as well as the NFL.   We'll see how they proceed now....  

-Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Wrong.  You already know that I am a woman. I just told you it is none of your business whether or not I've ever played any sports games.  I was not afraid to tell you it wasn't any of your business and I am still not afraid to let you know it isn't any of your business.    Because it isn't.    

 Back to the topic now, Unkotare.  - Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 7, 2013)

According to a statement from the team, We believe in maintaining a culture of respect for one another, and as a result we believe this is in the best interests of the organization at this time.
One young defensive player, whose privacy the Miami Herald is protecting, is on his way to going broke because he has been unable to say no to the older players, a source said.
Everything tastes better when rookies pay for it, veteran defensive end Jared Odrick wrote on Twitter over the weekend. Yes, the bill would make you sick.
Younger players were handed the tab for a $30,000 team dinner, according to a source. The rookie minimum salary this year is about $400,000.

Read more here: Sources: Miami Dolphins rookies pushed to pay up - Miami Dolphins - MiamiHerald.com

This is flat our wrong, people.  It is wrong.  - Jeri


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Jeremiah said:
> ...




No, I didn't know that already. Your answer and what it revealed about you remain unchanged.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> About half of all NFL players have college degrees. That's more than the general public.



Perhaps that statement wasn&#8217;t worded correctly, but hear me out. 

Top althetes aren&#8217;t accepted into colleges for their brains, nor are they accepted onto pro teams for their brains. And when they get accepted into college, learning is often their #2 or #3 priority (and I&#8217;m talking specifically about top athletes who are bound for the pros). 

I&#8217;ve built this opinion based on what I&#8217;ve experienced and heard from folks who knew top athletes at the big ten school I attended. Big athletes often missed class, missed tests, yet were given special exemptions and &#8220;help&#8221; (ie someone else did their work) to get a passing grade so that they wouldn&#8217;t get kicked out of the school. 

A 20 year old who knows he&#8217;s NFL bound is hardly worried about his Chemistry exam, generally speaking of course.  

My main point is not only are pro athletes not selected for their brains (which lowers the IQ of the pool), many of them also didn&#8217;t dedicate as many rigorous hours to studying as your run of the mill college student, therefore rendering the fact they "have a degree" less meaningful.

Normal student = needs to get accepted by school based on intelligence, will receive no "special exemptions" passing classes
Athlete = gets accepted to school based on physical ability, will receive "special exemptions" passing classes

Fair statement?


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Top althetes arent accepted into colleges for their brains, nor are they accepted onto pro teams for their brains.





That is an inaccurate generalization.


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> many of them also didnt dedicate as many rigorous hours to studying as your run of the mill college student




And many of them do.


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Normal student = needs to get accepted by school based on intelligence, will receive no "special exemptions" passing classes
> Athlete = gets accepted to school based on physical ability, will receive "special exemptions" passing classes
> 
> Fair statement?




No, it's not.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 7, 2013)

Actually I'll word it in a different way. 

Why is a degree valuable? I say it's because you (A) know the person passed the rigorous intelligence standards to get into the college, and (B) successfully completed the rigorous course load the college puts a student through.

Knowing that Athletes get accepted into college not for their intelligence but rather physical ability, and usually get a "free pass" on tests, coursework (or at least leeway, and if you think they don't you're being naive), does the degree become "less valuable"?

I say... DEFINITELY


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## KevinWestern (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > many of them also didnt dedicate as many rigorous hours to studying as your run of the mill college student
> ...



We're talking on average. 

Folks who became NFL, NBA athletes vs your run-of-the mill student.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Top althetes aren&#8217;t accepted into colleges for their brains, nor are they accepted onto pro teams for their brains.
> ...



You're saying that the University of Alabama goes to the home of the top HS Wide Receiver in the country because they're interested in his intelligence level? 

You're wrong here, and why? 

Because a low IQ non-athlete doesn't have the same chance of getting into a big ten college as a low IQ athlete who happens to be the best QB in the nation. 


.


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Actually I'll word it in a different way.
> 
> Why is a degree valuable? I say it's because you (A) know the person passed the rigorous intelligence standards to get into the college, and (B) successfully completed the rigorous course load the college puts a student through.
> 
> ...




Again, an inaccurate generalization. Wanting to believe such inaccurate generalizations won't make you any bigger, stronger, or faster. Sorry.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I'll word it in a different way.
> ...



Why don't you explain why it's an inaccurate generalization?


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...




You realize that one of the NFL linemen involved in the incident in question graduated from Stanford, right?


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...




First of all it's an illogical claim, since you do not have sufficient proof upon which to base it. Second, many positions in many sports require significant intelligence and the ability to process a great deal of information. Ever notice the size of an NFL playbook? Do you think the complex offenses and defenses in today's NFL lend themselves to mastery by unintelligent people? 

The schools where jocks get a pass are the exception today. In fact, there is currently a big push underway in the NFL to encourage and support former players who may not have finished their degrees to go  back to school and do so. They recognize the importance of having an education once their time in the pros is up.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 7, 2013)

Pop23 said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



You can say no to a person holding a gun to your head. The question is did the rookies have a reasonable fear of retaliation for saying no.


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## manifold (Nov 7, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Top althetes arent accepted into colleges for their brains, nor are they accepted onto pro teams for their brains.
> ...



It's actually a very accurate generalization. If hitting the target more than 90% of the time qualifies as accurate anyway.


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## Unkotare (Nov 7, 2013)

manifold said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...





The proof that it is inaccurate can be found in your inability to substantiate that rather specific "more than 90% of the time."


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## Pop23 (Nov 7, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Jeremiah said:
> ...



No gun was involved. The argument is about a crime.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 7, 2013)

And it is a crime to do what has been done to these rookies, Pops.   I am amazed you cannot see it!


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## Politico (Nov 8, 2013)

Why are you continuing to argue with a troll?


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## hangover (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> hangover said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Those sheep skins were payment for playing for those colleges, not earned through honest study. Manley wouldn't even have graduated high school, had he actually had to legitimately pass those tests. College is a free ride for athletes. NCAA is a scam.


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I low balled it just to make sure I was covered. The actual figure is more likely in the high 9's.


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > About half of all NFL players have college degrees. That's more than the general public.
> ...



No offense but you're so far off on basically all of your statements that I can only assume you don't actually follow sports at all.  Almost everything you've said is flat out wrong and can be debunked by just picking up the sports page of your local newspaper.

The NCAA specifically mandates minimal high school GPA, SAT, etc. scores for incoming athletes and none of them are especially low.  Many of the top athletic programs in the country come from some of the best colleges that refuse to lower their standards for admissions.  Throwing a football won't get you into Stanford any more than shooting a basketball will get you into Duke.  More importantly, athletes are suspended, dismissed from their teams, or expelled from their schools altogether *ALL THE TIME* for not showing up to class or failing to maintain their grades.  You don't get any more higher profile in college sports than starting quarterback for Notre Dame in the National Championship Game but Golson Everett is not playing this season because of his grades.

"Brains" is very important to teams which is why the NFL specifically gives an IQ test and arguably the single worst thing you can do to affect your draft position is tank that exam.


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Jeremiah said:
> ...



Rookies say no to hazing all the time.

Unfortunately there are a lot of non-sport people trying to take things out of context and blow this story out of proportion.  Working in the NFL is a job but it's a completely different job atmosphere then working for an accounting firm.  In this case, it really is Martin who really was in the wrong and he probably cost himself his NFL career.


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



From all accounts, his play had all but sewn up that fate. This is just a fuck you money grab on the way out.

Seems he just might be the huge pussy his teammates knew he was all along.


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## Sarah G (Nov 8, 2013)

I don't know, anyone would have been nervous around that guy.  Yes, football is tough but there are some who seem to have been hit too many times in the head without a helmet.

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - Political Comedy - Fake News | Comedy Central

"Richie Incognito" needs help.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> No offense but you're so far off on basically all of your statements that I can only assume you don't actually follow sports at all.  Almost everything you've said is flat out wrong and can be debunked by just picking up the sports page of your local newspaper.
> 
> The NCAA specifically mandates minimal high school GPA, SAT, etc. scores for incoming athletes and none of them are especially low.  Many of the top athletic programs in the country come from some of the best colleges that refuse to lower their standards for admissions.  Throwing a football won't get you into Stanford any more than shooting a basketball will get you into Duke.  More importantly, athletes are suspended, dismissed from their teams, or expelled from their schools altogether *ALL THE TIME* for not showing up to class or failing to maintain their grades.  You don't get any more higher profile in college sports than starting quarterback for Notre Dame in the National Championship Game but Golson Everett is not playing this season because of his grades.
> 
> "Brains" is very important to teams which is why the NFL specifically gives an IQ test and arguably the single worst thing you can do to affect your draft position is tank that exam.



Thanks for the response and you bring up good points. Again, I'm not making the claim that NFL players are morons &#8211; totally not my intention. 

But think of it this way (and correct me if you think I&#8217;m wrong); if you were to compare a group of people who worked their way up from scratch to make a salary equivalent to that of an NFL player in the business world, would you expect those folks to have a higher average IQ than that of an average NFL player who earns his money for &#8220;being really fast and good at tackling people&#8221;?  

Sure, Notre Dame might suspend a QB for grades but I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re well aware that Notre Dame puts a greater emphasis on academics (for their athletes) than most of the other Division 1 schools. Are you telling me that the best running back in the country wouldn&#8217;t make it into the NFL because &#8220;his IQ is low&#8221;? If he&#8217;s going to win games, an NFL team will pick him up (so long as he&#8217;s not a criminal, rude, etc). 

Throwing a football might not get you into Stanford, but the point is if you&#8217;re good enough YOU WILL get into a Division 1 school and if you win games you will get into the NFL.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 8, 2013)

Pop23 said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



Coercion and fraud can be a crime. And it is a viable argument in civil cases.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Nov 8, 2013)

I agree, the bottom line is they can by court order demand the emails of these people, their text messages, their discussions to prove the case that it was a joint effort to bully an individual, destroy their reputation, destroy their livlihood if they did not comply, there are many facets to the case.  

You simply cannot go behind the scenes - plot out the bullying of a football player on the team - execute it behind the scenes by email, text message, etc and then not expect to pay for it in a civil suit.

  I am guessing that this football player is going to win millions in damages.. he will also find out who else was behind it because whoever is called to testify, or named as involved is going to lose their right to the "anonymous status" they enjoyed while doing this to the individual.   That includes the people who put the coaches up to this bullying in the first place.  Their day is coming as well.  - Jeri


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## Pop23 (Nov 8, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> And it is a crime to do what has been done to these rookies, Pops.   I am amazed you cannot see it!



Argh, these dinners have been a rookie tradition for decades. 

The higher the draft choice the higher the expense. Very low draft choices and free agents will often fulfill the tradition with pizza or subway. High draft choices will buy expensive meals because of the size of the contracts and signing bonuses. 

What is most curious is how many of the players said that, if asked two weeks ago they would have said these two were great friends. And how others said that Incognito was very protective of Martin, both on and off the field?

Then there is the report that Martin was sharing the texts and voice mails with team mates and laughing about them as though they were jokes. 

This whole thing reeks.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 8, 2013)

Pop23 said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> > And it is a crime to do what has been done to these rookies, Pops.   I am amazed you cannot see it!
> ...



Players are covering their ass.


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## Pop23 (Nov 8, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Jeremiah said:
> ...



Why?


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 8, 2013)

Pop23 said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



Their reputation, lawsuits?


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## Pop23 (Nov 8, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Truthseeker420 said:
> ...



Players that are drafted know that this is a tradition. Many have refused to participate. I don't see reputation being a part of this. It's not as though this was a secret.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

hangover said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > hangover said:
> ...




Those are the illogical sour grapes of a bitter 98 lbs. weakling.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

manifold said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




Does it make it easier for you to talk out your ass knowing you can never prove what you're claiming, Poindexter?


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I'm not talking out of my ass. I played football. I know what I'm talking about.

When this sort of thing happens in cross-country track, I'll defer to your expertise.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

manifold said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




Prove your rather specific figure then, towel-boy.


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

A PSA about generalizations...

NFL football players on balance have below average intelligence.  <<- Accurate generalization.

People who have a college degree have above average intelligence.  <<- Inaccurate generalization.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

manifold said:


> NFL football players on balance have below average intelligence.  <<- Accurate generalization.




Prove it, towel-boy. And prove your "high 9s" claim while your at it.


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

Right after you prove your generalization trackster.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

manifold said:


> Right after you prove your generalization trackster.




You just failed your IQ test. Do you play in the NFL?


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

So you can't prove your generalization then?

shocker!


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

manifold said:


> So you can't prove your generalization then?
> 
> shocker!






Too bad you never received enough education to understand basic logic, towel-boy.


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > So you can't prove your generalization then?
> ...



kettle, black


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

manifold said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...





No, idiot. If someone (like you) makes a claim, it is up to that person (like you) to support or withdraw that claim. Calling bullshit on the claim leaves the onus on the person (like you) who made the claim. Are you really this stupid?


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

I found this info from Yahoo! Sports; it's 'the average Wonderlic score by position' in the NFL. If you have other data please bring it forward as I'm not an expert in this subject.

Not shockingly, QBs/Centers are generally above average in intelligence, however MANY of the players do indeed fall in the "below average intelligence" category.

There -  [MENTION=31918]Unkotare[/MENTION]. Perhaps this will allow us to make a more 'accurate generalization'. 

*Average Wonderlic Score (score of 20 = 100 IQ)*

QB/Center: 24-25
Guard: 21
Safety/Linebacker: 19
Corner back: 18
Wide Receiver / Fullback: 17
Halfback: 16


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## manifold (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
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No, but apparently you are.

We both made generalizations trackster, but for some reason you want to give yourself a pass for it while at the same time crawling up my ass about it.

If you're not stupid, then you're a hypocrite.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

I will add too that most players would do some preparation before the Wonderlic test (as it's semi-important), skewing their scores artificially higher than they should be.

I would imagine a "wonderlic" test is designed to be taken with zero preparation in order to get a "true reading".


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## Decus (Nov 8, 2013)

It has been claimed that Martin was bullied into paying for a trip he did not attend. But what if this proves to be true?:

"Importantly, Murtha clarified the alleged "extortion" of $15,000 from Jon Martin that has been reported previously. Previous reports said Martin was pressured into paying for a Las Vegas trip Martin himself did not attend. That sounds terrible, right?"

_"According to Murtha, that report is accurate but incomplete. *Martin had promised he would attend the trip, which was paid in advance. Martin then backed out at the last minute, not due to illness or family emergency, but because he no longer felt like going.* *The players who helped organize the trip, including Incognito, demanded Martin still pay his share because everything was pre-paid, and there were no refunds available*."
_
_"Obviously, IF this version of the story is true, the Vegas trip being partially paid for by Martin no longer qualifies as an example of bullying - *I've done the exact same thing to a very good friend of mine in a similar situation. It's not bullying to expect friends to keep their word.* This could be an example of a story sounding much worse than it is in reality because of a key detail missing - in this case, Martin allegedly promising to go on the trip, which was pre-paid."_

www.thephinsider.com/2013/11/7/5076...in-storyichie-incognito-jonathan-martin-story

It's sounding more and more like Martin is altering the facts to set up a lawsuit that will provide him with a big payoff. This could open the door for other guys that couldn't make it at the pro level - if you can't play at the NFL level find an excuse, blame it on the team and sue the hell out of everybody until you get the money.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

manifold said:


> We both made generalizations trackster.





No, I just called you on your generalization, idiot.


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Callas_Dowboys said:
> 
> 
> > No offense but you're so far off on basically all of your statements that I can only assume you don't actually follow sports at all.  Almost everything you've said is flat out wrong and can be debunked by just picking up the sports page of your local newspaper.
> ...



You are wrong.

It might make us regular guys feel better to insist Tom Brady must be a dummy because he's good looking, supremely talented, rich, famous, and married to the most successful model on the planet but there is no correlation between athleticism and intelligence anymore than penis size and intelligence.  

Almost everyone succeeding and winning games in college WILL NOT play in the NFL.  You're really underestimating what an elite group these teams are.  Also, there isn't a tremendous amount of physical difference between NFL superstars and guys on the practice squad.  Most of the time the practice squad guys are more athletic too.  Those guys are able to get by on their athleticism in college where the level of competition isn't as steep.  There is a reason teams invest so much money in evaluating a player's intelligence.  The decisions made in a football game might seem trivial to you but you need to consider the speed at which they're making these decisions.  Being able to pick up on the pass rush, find a receiver down field, and put yourself into a position to get the ball there faster then everyone else is a tremendous advantage. 

You don't have to be a genius athlete to get into college but then again you don't have to be a genius to get into college to begin with.   There are plenty of dumb people who go to bad schools, irrelevant of if they can throw a football.  The NCAA holds student athletes to a very tough standard and many schools hold their athletes to higher standards.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Callas_Dowboys said:
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So, posted this earlier but according to Yahoo! Sports (which obviously isn&#8217;t the authority of everything and could be wrong) these are the historical average Wonderlic scores for NFL players by position. QBs/Centers are historically very smart (Tom Brady), Guards average, and RBs, WRs, FBs, HBs, etc are all below your average intelligence levels.

And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything I'd say they skew slightly high.

Do you think these numbers are incorrect? Personally, I think these support my argument more than they do yours but I'm open for discussion. 


_Average Wonderlic Score (score of 20 = 100 IQ)

QB/Center: 24-25
Guard: 21
Safety/Linebacker: 19
Corner back: 18
Wide Receiver / Fullback: 17
Halfback: 16
_


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Truthseeker420 said:
> ...



Lawsuits from what?  It's not like Martin is going to sue Incognito for saying he was going to fuck his mom.


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Callas_Dowboys said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
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They're probably right but I don't see how it hurts my argument.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> They're probably right but I don't see how it hurts my argument.



Let me put it this way. The average IQ of a college graduate is around 115 (which translates to about a 25 wonderlic).

Now, given the NFL&#8217;s smartest positions score on average a 24-25, and all others below that (well below for some), I think it&#8217;s a fair statement to say that NFL players aren&#8217;t all that smart - my original argument. 

They are less smart than your _average _college graduate (despite most all attending college), and barely on par with the general population. Hardly an "elite" group when it comes to using the brain. 

Fair statement?


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything I'd say they skew slightly high.





Objection. Speculation.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > And on top of it, I'm sure most of these guys do some extensive preparation before taking the test, so if anything I'd say they skew slightly high.
> ...




Sure, whatever. It is a speculation, but it's irrelevant regardless. 

What is relevant is that I just showed you that AT BEST the average wonderlic score for an NFL player (across the board) is 19-21, which is lower than your average wonderlic score for a college graduate. 

I showed you that NFL players are not that smart, which renders my original argument correct and your accusations incorrect. 


.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> They are less smart than your _average _college graduate (despite most all attending college), and barely on par with the general population. Hardly an "elite" group when it comes to using the brain.



Only about 30% of Americans hold at least a bachelor's degree.

Now we've gone from them being a bunch of big, fast idiots to not being "elite" intellectually? You've moved the goal posts all the way out of the stadium, through the parking lot and into the middle of the freeway somewhere. Bring them back.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> > KevinWestern said:
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But nothing. It was pure speculation. We could sit and pick apart this 'test' all day long too, but to what end? Where are your comparisons with people in other professions? Where is your recognition that some 70% of Americans don't hold a college degree at all? How widely used is this 'Wonderlic' test? What sample size are we talking about and how are the results calculated and verified? Etc., etc., etc.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > They are less smart than your _average _college graduate (despite most all attending college), and barely on par with the general population. Hardly an "elite" group when it comes to using the brain.
> ...



My whole point is that NFL players aren't that smart, on average. They are fast, physically talented, but as a whole don't excel in intelligence. 

Although we can obviously debate this, I'd say someone with a 115+ IQ is smart (the average college grad's IQ). 

That's why I originally said the bullying doesn't surprise me, because this is a group of guys who aren't that smart and (on top of it) generally are used to beating the crap out each other physically anyways. 

Apologies if I offended anyone, as that wasn't my intention.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Unkotare said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Hey, I never said the Wonderlic test was the end all be all. However, is pretty darn relevant to the conversation don't you think, lol? I mean, if you're speculating about the average intelligence of a group, and that entire group is required to take an intelligence test, doesn't it make sense that you examine those scores as a step 1? 

Here's some median scores for other professions:

    Systems Analyst &#8211; 32
    Chemist &#8211; 31
    Electrical Engineer &#8211; 30
    Engineer &#8211; 29
    Programmer &#8211; 29
    Accountant &#8211; 28
    Executive &#8211; 28
    Reporter &#8211; 28
    Teacher &#8211; 28
    Copywriter &#8211; 27
    Investment Analyst &#8211; 27
    Librarian &#8211; 27
    Electronics technician &#8211; 26
    Salesperson &#8211; 25
    Secretary &#8211; 24
    Dispatcher &#8211; 23
    Drafter &#8211; 23
    Electrician &#8211; 23
    Nurse &#8211; 23
    Bank teller &#8211; 22
    Cashier &#8211; 21
    Firefighter &#8211; 21
    General Clerical worker &#8211; 21
    Machinist &#8211; 21
    Receptionist &#8211; 21
    Train Conductor &#8211; 21
    Skilled Craftsman &#8211; 18
    Security guard &#8211; 17
    Welder &#8211; 17
    Warehouseman &#8211; 15
    Janitor - 14


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Callas_Dowboys said:
> 
> 
> > They're probably right but I don't see how it hurts my argument.
> ...



I think your original statement was closer to them being dumb then not all that smart but I don't think the numbers reflect either case.  The problem with looking at the data your way is that almost none of the players being counted will ever really play in the NFL.  Teams do the best they can to find actual talent but it winds up being an endless cycle of turnover until you find a quality starter.  

I'm not suggesting that you necessarily have to be a genius to play pro sports but I suspect things will look very different if you narrow that list to guys who played 9+ years in the league.  The average Wonderlic scores for QB's isn't especially impressive but if you start searching for individual starters, nearly all of them have scores well in excess of the average.  Many of them are in the 30-35 range.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> I think your original statement was closer to them being dumb then not all that smart but I don't think the numbers reflect either case.  The problem with looking at the data your way is that almost none of the players being counted will ever really play in the NFL.  Teams do the best they can to find actual talent but it winds up being an endless cycle of turnover until you find a quality starter.



Correct, I should have worded my original argument a bit more carefully.



Callas_Dowboys said:


> I'm not suggesting that you necessarily have to be a genius to play pro sports but I suspect things will look very different if you narrow that list to guys who played 9+ years in the league.  The average Wonderlic scores for QB's isn't especially impressive but if you start searching for individual starters, nearly all of them have scores well in excess of the average.  Many of them are in the 30-35 range.  You can think what you want but I don't believe teams are trying to entice a 44 year old Brett Favre to come out of retirement because he's just more athletic than guys half his age.



It's a great point, definitely, and if you have any data that supports it I'd love to see it. 

I will say however_ in the context_ of the conversation and the OP (bullying in the locker room, etc) we weren't discussing just the starters - we were discussing everyone (because everyone is going to be in the locker room).


.


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> It's a great point, definitely, and if you have any data that supports it I'd love to see it.
> 
> I will say however_ in the context_ of the conversation and the OP (bullying in the locker room, etc) we weren't discussing just the starters - we were discussing everyone (because everyone is going to be in the locker room).
> .



Rich Incognito, the supposed bully, scored a 32 on the Wonderlic. 

I think you're wrong on their intelligence but then again I also think you're wrong on your views of what took place as a whole.  I think it was Martin who was in the wrong here and he probably tossed away what possible future he had in the league.


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## Unkotare (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> Rich Incognito, the supposed bully, scored a 32 on the Wonderlic. .




And the alleged victim graduated from Stanford, so I don't think this is a reflection of anything about intelligence and the NFL from which any larger conclusions can be drawn.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> ...I also think you're wrong on your views of what took place as a whole.  I think it was Martin who was in the wrong here and he probably tossed away what possible future he had in the league.



What do you mean you think I'm wrong? I agree with you. In my first post I said:

"Personally, I think Incognito's an idiot".. (fyi meant that with regards to bullying).. "but at the end of the day these are grown adults we're talking about and I place a great deal of the blame on Martin for simply not saying no"


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## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 8, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Callas_Dowboys said:
> 
> 
> > ...I also think you're wrong on your views of what took place as a whole.  I think it was Martin who was in the wrong here and he probably tossed away what possible future he had in the league.
> ...



I didn't realize that.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Callas_Dowboys said:
> ...



No problemo.


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## Warrior102 (Nov 8, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Richie Incognito DROPS N-BOMB ON VIDEO ... In Crazy Bar Rage - YouTube



If you're that much into the "N" word, asswipe, go listen to some rap.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 8, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Richie Incognito DROPS N-BOMB ON VIDEO ... In Crazy Bar Rage - YouTube



Lol he scored a 32 on the test? Certainly not showing it here. Seems like a real bonehead. 

Anyways...

Incognito clearly _not _using the word in a mean spirited way....


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## Iceman (Nov 8, 2013)

The NFL is just a microcosm of America, it is now fully pussified.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 10, 2013)

Warrior102 said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> > Richie Incognito DROPS N-BOMB ON VIDEO ... In Crazy Bar Rage - YouTube
> ...



Ahh..the "it's okay because a black man does it" reasoning...


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 10, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> > Richie Incognito DROPS N-BOMB ON VIDEO ... In Crazy Bar Rage - YouTube
> ...



I'm sure his buddies took it as clowning around but what would he had done if someone confronted him?


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## Papageorgio (Nov 10, 2013)

Callas_Dowboys said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



He will sue Miami, the coach, the coaching staff and the players. He will claim that it was a hostile work environment and the team not only knew about it but by putting Incognito on the leadership council, the Dolphins turned the other way and found it all acceptable.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 10, 2013)

Papageorgio said:


> Callas_Dowboys said:
> 
> 
> > Truthseeker420 said:
> ...



 get paid multi millions and save his body from the NFL.


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## Papageorgio (Nov 10, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> > Truthseeker420 said:
> ...



That's the way the black community sees it, I think it is wrong, no matter what your ethnicity or skin color. I hope we are all evolved beyond that point, but obviously, Incognito is still stuck on stupid.


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## Papageorgio (Nov 10, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Callas_Dowboys said:
> ...



I don't doubt that Martin is intelligent and with all the brain injuries in the NFL, this might be the best way to move on.


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## Truthseeker420 (Nov 10, 2013)

Papageorgio said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> > Warrior102 said:
> ...



I agree..I'm not saying Incognito is racist but how smart is it to jeopardize a multi million dollar contract.


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## Papageorgio (Nov 10, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Truthseeker420 said:
> ...



I don't think he is a racist, I think he is just a guy that thinks just because he is a athlete, everyone needs to bow to him and are supposed to be impressed with him.


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