# Canadian health care is not as "universal" as liberals claim



## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

Liberals are always talking about great Canada's "universal" health care is.

Meanwhile, in the real world, these news articles shows that it is not as "universal" as liberals claim.

Just because someone has "coverage" does not mean that they actually get treatment.










						Canada's Private Clinics Surge as Public System Falters (Published 2006)
					

The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada's most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.     Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients...




					www.nytimes.com
				




Canada’s Private Clinics Surge as Public System Falters

The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada’s most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.

Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years before receiving treatment.

Dr. Day, 59, says. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years.”

Canada remains the only industrialized country that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services.

Canada has a national doctor shortage already, with 1.4 million people in the province of Ontario alone without the services of a family doctor.

The median wait time between a referral by a family doctor and an appointment with a specialist has increased to 8.3 weeks… Meanwhile the median wait between an appointment with a specialist and treatment has increased to 9.4 weeks

Average wait times between referral by a family doctor and treatment range from 5.5 weeks for oncology to 40 weeks for orthopedic surgery









						Wait times for knee- and hip-replacement surgery at Southwestern Ontario hospitals are among the longest in the province
					

People who go under the knife to get their knees replaced in Strathroy have waited an average of 671 days for surgery as delays in Southwestern Ontario…




					torontosun.com
				




Wait times for knee- and hip-replacement surgery at Southwestern Ontario hospitals are among the longest in the province

People who go under the knife to get their knees replaced in Strathroy have waited an average of 671 days for surgery

Stratford is running the second-highest wait in the province for those needing a hip replacement: the average wait there was 364 days.

In London, the region’s largest medical centre, patients waited an average of 307 days to replace a knee and 299 days to replace a hip

Londoner Judy Congdon waited more than a year to have her right knee replaced when her Strathroy surgeon told her he’d have to replace her left hip next. Told last year to expect surgery in September 2017, her date in the operating room was cancelled, and the surgery delayed a second year





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						Some Canadian mothers forced to give birth in U.S.  |  			KOMO News 			- Seattle, Washington 			 | News
					






					web.archive.org
				




Some Canadian mothers forced to give birth in U.S.

SEATTLE – A problem in Canada’s hospitals is sending scores of pregnant women south of the border to have their babies.

Carri Ash of Chilliwack, B.C. was sent to the U.S. to have her baby after her water broke on Sunday, ten weeks ahead of schedule.

“And they came in and said ‘you’re going to Seattle,'” she said.

Ash’s hospital couldn’t handle the high-risk pregnancy. Doctors searched for another hospital bed, but even hospitals in Vancouver, B.C. didn’t have a neo-natal bed.

“So two provinces didn’t have enough room, so I have to go to another country,” said Ash.

Ash was sent to Swedish Medical Center where, nurses told KOMO 4 News, five Canadian women have come to have their babies in the past six weeks. Some were even airlifted at up to $5,000 per flight.

And a woman from Calgary, one of the wealthiest cities in Canada, had to travel to Montana to give birth to her identical quadruplets.

“We always regret when we have to transfer a baby or mother to another jurisdiction for care,” said Canada’s Health Minister George Abbott.

Aidan Nassey was born premature in Canada and developed breathing problems before his mother could even hold him.

“It was terrifying. And he was taken away and that was it,” said Courtney Nassey, his mother.

There wasn’t a hospital in western Canada that could take in Aidan, and a helicopter had to rush them to Seattle.

Vicki Irvine crossed the border to see her daughter, Carri Ash, give birth.

“You can’t even have a baby near home. It’s horrible,” she said.

Irvine and Ash are questioning Canada’s priorities when it comes to health care spending.

“I think it’s ridiculous that we can have the Olympics but not enough beds so I can have a baby,” said Ash.

The family says there is one benefit to their neo-natal nightmare — the newborn will have dual citizenship and, so far, they like what they see on this side of the border.









						Critically ill patients rushed to U.S. for care
					

More than 150 critically ill Canadians - many with life-threatening cerebral hemorrhages - have been rushed to the United States since the spring of 2006 because they could not obtain intensive-care beds here.




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




More than 150 critically ill Canadians – many with life-threatening cerebral hemorrhages – have been rushed to the United States since the spring of 2006 because they could not obtain intensive-care beds here.

Before patients with bleeding in or outside the brain have been whisked through U.S. operating-room doors, some have languished for as long as eight hours in Canadian emergency wards while health-care workers scrambled to locate care.









						Rationing Health Care: Price Controls Are Hazardous to Our Health | Simon Rottenberg
					

For many, price controls may seem like a tempting solution to holding down health care costs. However, past attempts at price controls teach us a very different lesson--this is one government policy guaranteed to do more harm than good. In fact, throughout history, price controls have been a...




					www.independent.org
				




when Robert Bouressa, the Premier of Quebec, had to have his potentially lethal skin cancer treated, he quickly beat a path to the United States and paid for treatment at the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Maryland.









						Stronach went to U.S. for cancer treatment: report
					

Liberal MP Belinda Stronach, who is battling breast cancer, travelled to California last June for an operation that was recommended as part of her treatment, says a report.



					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Liberal MP Belinda Stronach, who is battling breast cancer, travelled to California last June for an operation that was recommended as part of her treatment, says a report. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/heart-surgery-to-sideline-n-l-premier-for-weeks-1.869535
		


Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams will be sidelined from three to 12 weeks because of heart surgery he'll undergo at an undisclosed location in the United States, acting premier Kathy Dunderdale says.

From the video below:

19:41 A Toronto man who had a hearth attack waits and waits in an emergency room because there are not enough ICU beds to give him the treatment that he needs.

20:15 A young Canadian girl who has seizures does not have a regular pediatrician, and cannot get a bed at a hospital.

20:23 “More than a million Canadians say they can’t find a regular family doctor. Some towns, like this one, hold a lottery. Once a week, the town clerk gets this box out of the closet. Inside are the names of everyone in town who wants a family doctor. She pulls out one slip, and then calls the lucky winner.”

The narrator then goes on to explain that in order to avoid such long waiting times, some patients have gone to private clinics where they spend their own money on health care, which is illegal in Canada. Even though it’s illegal, it’s actually quite common.

21:36 A businessman makes money by helping Canadians travel to the U.S. to get the health care that they can’t get in Canada. One such example was a woman who had a blocked artery that prevented her from being able to digest her food. She was starving to death. She’d lost 50 pounds. Then she hired the businessman to help her, and she traveled to Washington state and got the health care that she needed. The American doctor said that she would have died within a few weeks if she hadn’t gotten treatment. However, the Canadian government considered her care to be “elective.”

22:11 the narrator shows that at veterinary clinics in Canada, which are privately run and privately funded, animals can get medical treatment immediately, without having to wait. All of the latest high tech equipment is available and ready.


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## pknopp (Oct 26, 2020)

A single mother of two working tables in a restaurant shouldn't have to choose between the electric bill and seeing about the lump she has noticed in her breast.


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## Toro (Oct 26, 2020)

Canadian Medicare is flawed, but in the last poll taken on the subject, 86% of Canadians approved of their healthcare system.





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						New poll shows Canadians overwhelmingly support public health care – Healthcare-NOW!
					






					www.healthcare-now.org
				




You certainly can't say that about America.  









						CBS News poll: Most Americans favor a national health plan
					

But most Americans still like the health insurance they currently have and do not want private insurance to be replaced by a public option




					www.cbsnews.com


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## Shelzin (Oct 26, 2020)

pknopp said:


> A single mother of two working tables in a restaurant shouldn't have to choose between the electric bill and seeing about the lump she has noticed in her breast.


A single mother of two who dies because she can't see a doctor in a year isn't really helping anything either.


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2020)

For seven years I lived in a city near the Canadian border.

The waiting rooms in the doctor's office always had Cananadians that had come down to get medical care.  They would rather pay for our care than to get whatever their government gave them for free.

Socialized medicine sucks.


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## Oddball (Oct 26, 2020)

Toro said:


> Canadian Medicare is flawed, but in the last poll taken on the subject, 86% of Canadians approved of their healthcare system.
> 
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> ...


Well, the biggest mob is in favor of it, so it must be legit!


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Oct 26, 2020)

Just say no to drugs....err, socialized medicine


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## TheParser (Oct 26, 2020)

And if the Dem politicians do impose socialized medicine on us ordinary people, you can be sure that they and their families will be going to private practitioners and hospitals. 

No mixing with (the) hoi polloi for them!

(Can you imagine the Speaker of the House trusting her facial enhancements to a government-paid health worker?)


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## johngaltshrugged (Oct 26, 2020)

Economics & human nature doom any socialized system to ultimate failure. Nothing is free, it has to be paid for in one way or another. In the case of medicine, it is paid for by lower wages for medical workers, higher taxes on the populace & inferior care in the form of longer waits & less choices. 
This is why it has always been inferior to the free market system. Capitalism has been shown to consistently increase the standards of living across the board while socialism generally brings about stagnation or regression.


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Toro said:


> Canadian Medicare is flawed, but in the last poll taken on the subject, 86% of Canadians approved of their healthcare system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats nice... All the time everyone was saying that US and Canada aren't alike when it comes to healthcare... 

It looks like they want the same things at the end of the day... Canada just seems to be far more successful at achieving this... The stories above are anecdotal and could be solved if Canada more than 11.6% of GDP on Healthcare. US healthcare spend is 18% of GDP(2017) rising 4.6% a year..  

*Lets be clear GOP have no Healthcare plan... They have criticised others but have none themselves, this is 9 years after Obamacare has been implemented. They have no country who is implementing a plan they like to model on... Biden's public option is common place around the world and Germany has a similar one which is offering more efficient and better treatment.*


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## Oddball (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> Toro said:
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> 
> > Canadian Medicare is flawed, but in the last poll taken on the subject, 86% of Canadians approved of their healthcare system.
> ...


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> *Lets be clear GOP have no Healthcare plan... *



Lets be more clear Moon Bat.

We don't need or what a Liberal health care plan.

How about you paying your health care bills and I will pay mine and we leave the fucking government out of it?

Sound good or are you one of the greedy little Libtard assholes that think your are entitled to have somebody else pay your bills simply because you are alive?


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## Mr Natural (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> CowboyTed said:
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> > *Lets be clear GOP have no Healthcare plan... *
> ...



Yeah asshole,  next time you need open heart surgery or go on chemo, just reach into your pocket and pull out a hundred grand or so.


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## BluesLegend (Oct 26, 2020)

Canada's RATIONED healthcare is substandard. It's only free if you don't die first before receiving treatment, otherwise it cost you your life.


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2020)

Mr Clean said:


> Flash said:
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I can pay my own health care bills, thank you very much.  I don't need or want your fucking money.

However greedy little Moon Bats like you that are too sorry to provide for your own think you are entitled to have me pay your bills simply because you are alive.


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## Mr Natural (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> I can pay my own health care bills, thank you very much.



Of course you can, until you can't.

Asshole!


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2020)

Mr Clean said:


> Flash said:
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> > I can pay my own health care bills, thank you very much.
> ...




Stop being a greedy little Moon Bat shithead.  It just makes you look like a fool.

A few years ago I was diagnosed with cancer.  I am a veteran.  I could have gone to the VA and got the treatment for free.

I didn't do that.  The last thing I wanted to do was put something as important as my healthcare in the hands of a bureaucrat that didn't give a shit about me.

I didn't want to deal with the typical slow government schedule or bureaucratic bullshit. 

I paid for my own treatment.  I had three private clinics that were vying for my business and I got quick and effective treatment.  If I had put my health care in the hands of the government I would probably still be waiting.

I take responsibility for my own well being.  I pay my own bills.  You greedy asshole Moon Bats think you are entitled to have somebody else pay you bills simply because you are alive.  Shame on you!

Get off you fat diabetes ass and pay your own damn bills you worthless little shit.


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Oddball said:


> CowboyTed said:
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*The we have no plan but we are right and everyone else is wrong argument..

Why doesn't Trump just say that... He can use how his COVID plan went as an example...*


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> CowboyTed said:
> 
> 
> > *Lets be clear GOP have no Healthcare plan... *
> ...



So this is I have mine and you may fucking die... Fuck the rest of America plan...

Should run on this... Call it the 'Logan's Run' Plan....

Jesus said you got to get rich to live....


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

BluesLegend said:


> Canada's RATIONED healthcare is substandard. It's only free if you don't die first before receiving treatment, otherwise it cost you your life.



So you live in Canada then?

Canada has higher health metrics than the US... So "rationed" means all people get healthcare even by you own admission, GOP plan is like Holocaust Healthcare, if you ain't rich you die...


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## Taz (Oct 26, 2020)

Drop Dead Fred said:


> Liberals are always talking about great Canada's "universal" health care is.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, these news articles shows that it is not as "universal" as liberals claim.
> 
> ...


2006? Did you just wake up from a long slumber?


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> Mr Clean said:
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> > Flash said:
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Well cancer treatment did nothing for your personality...

But you had a choice, Government or Private, you had the means to choose... Thanks for supporting Biden's public option...


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> Flash said:
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It is not my responsibility to pay your fucking bills.  It is your responsibility.

If you want to live then earn your living.


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## Oddball (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> BluesLegend said:
> 
> 
> > Canada's RATIONED healthcare is substandard. It's only free if you don't die first before receiving treatment, otherwise it cost you your life.
> ...


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## danielpalos (Oct 26, 2020)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Just say no to drugs....err, socialized medicine


lol.  Just say no to a socialized war on drugs.


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> CowboyTed said:
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Thats OK...

Welcome to America where poor can fucking die....

No Problem... So the Purge is more of a Comedy for you... The weak must be eliminated from the herd...


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Oddball said:


> CowboyTed said:
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I

*It is about Healthcare Plans, I don't think you could understand... Better leave it to grown ups...*


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## boilermaker55 (Oct 26, 2020)

Do you think for one moment, that any senator or representative would give up their paid for health care?


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## Oddball (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> Oddball said:
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Shove it up your ass, punk.


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## Coyote (Oct 26, 2020)

So...in which country, the US or Canada - do more people have coverage and affordable healthcare....?


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## Coyote (Oct 26, 2020)

Canada ranked third-last for health care among developed countries
					

A comprehensive new study of health care systems in developed nations has ranked Canadian health care near the bottom.    Out of 11 countries, Can.




					www.kelownanow.com
				




Canada is ranked 9th out out of 11 developed countries for healthcare...not good.






The US is ranked 11th out of 11th.  That's pretty bad.



And you guys bitch about Canada?


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> Flash said:
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> > CowboyTed said:
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You pay your bills and I'll pay mine.  Doesn't that sound fair Moon Bat?

If you are too sorry to take care of yourself then that is your problem, not mine.

I may chose to help you because I am a generous guy but I sure as hell don't want the filthy ass oppressive government stealing my money and giving it to sorry ass fuckers like yourself.  Pay for your own damn healthcare.  Stop being a fucking leech.  You ain't entitled to to my money simply because you are alive.


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Oddball said:


> CowboyTed said:
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*Very Grown up response.... Do you struggle to discuss things that are complex? *


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## CowboyTed (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> CowboyTed said:
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Well it is leeches like you that use roads more than others...  Do you pay more for those roads...

So you want a private police force just to protect your house and no others...

*We get it, you don't want to be part of a society, you don't want to pay for it...

By the way that cancer treatment you got was based on public research payed by tax payers... That makes you a freeloader...*


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> Flash said:
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*I am a producer and get taxed all to hell to pay for you filthy ass welfare queens, too sorry to pay your own bills.*


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

pknopp said:


> A single mother of two working tables in a restaurant shouldn't have to choose between the electric bill and seeing about the lump she has noticed in her breast.


Why would it be anyone else's choice?


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> How about you paying your health care bills and I will pay mine and we leave the fucking government out of it?


Yes^^^


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## Juicin (Oct 26, 2020)

Drop Dead Fred said:


> Liberals are always talking about great Canada's "universal" health care is.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, these news articles shows that it is not as "universal" as liberals claim.
> 
> ...



They're an aging society that doesn't have babies

Their system wasn't designed for a sub 2.1 birthrate

Like most of our social welfare systems, they break down if you have too many elderly people.

Same with Social Security

Only way to fix this is ship in more medical experts because you can't produce enough domestically. WE have a specific class of visa to get doctors to rural areas.


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

Mr Clean said:


> Of course you can, until you can't.
> Asshole!


You're the asshole here, chump. Grow up and take care of your own healthcare needs. Your body, your bill.


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## Juicin (Oct 26, 2020)

Orangecat said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you can, until you can't.
> ...



yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper

tha't sthe important bit

Which is why Americans buy drugs from canadians, only 30 million of them and they're getting drugs cheaper than us because they're not retarded. Many of them american invented treatments


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

Juicin said:


> yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper


I have no problem with you and like-minded individuals doing that. Don't force your choice on others, though. That's an asshole move.


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## Juicin (Oct 26, 2020)

Orangecat said:


> Juicin said:
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> 
> > yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper
> ...



How is me forcing us as a society to buy drugs collectively that won't cost you a dime forcing a choice on you/

It's just like how we buy bullets in bulk

Why teh fuck wouldn't you buy insulin in bulk? Or anything else that we need for medical supplies.

We pay double what other western nations do for the exact same services largely for this reason. Hospitals get shafted on prices, then they turn and shaft patients and insurance companies. If you give hospitals large pools of cheap and exactly teh same drugs to buy and supplies to buy from....It won't hurt your pocket at all we'll just get better health care.

Just basic good governance that requires no substantive subsidy. People will buy the insulin it's cheap.


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## pknopp (Oct 26, 2020)

Orangecat said:


> pknopp said:
> 
> 
> > A single mother of two working tables in a restaurant shouldn't have to choose between the electric bill and seeing about the lump she has noticed in her breast.
> ...


 

 Its the least that a "Christian" nation should do.


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## Shelzin (Oct 26, 2020)

Coyote said:


> So...in which country, the US or Canada - do more people have coverage and affordable healthcare....?


Canada.  Maybe.  I'm not sure.  I would literally have to figure out how much I pay in extra taxes and see if it's more or less than I pay now for Health insurance per month. But you were looking for the answer Canada, so I'll happily give it.  

I would note here you CAN pay for your healthcare in Canada.  You can go to a doctors office where you pay upfront.  I would do that if I could.


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

Juicin said:


> How is me forcing us as a society to buy drugs collectively that won't cost you a dime forcing a choice on you/


Your words: "me forcing us". 
Sorry, I have no interest in you forcing "us" to subsidize your poor health choices. Be a grownup and take care of yourself.


> Why teh fuck wouldn't you buy insulin in bulk?


I have no use or need for insulin. If you want to band together with other insulin users and buy in bulk for a better deal, go for it. I won't be part of your group.


> People will buy the insulin it's cheap.


I'm a person, and I won't buy it either way. Same with tampons. If you need them, buy them. Don't force everyone else to.


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## BluesLegend (Oct 26, 2020)

Coyote said:


> So...in which country, the US or Canada - do more people have coverage and affordable healthcare....?



Canada's worthless coverage is not affordable start there. The study you linked notes Canadians are not getting the best value for their tax dollars, shocker it's run by the government. Obamacare dragged down the US, now there's some worthless coverage for many people the sky high deductibles mean the insurance never pays a dime and people still have to pay the sky high premiums.


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

pknopp said:


> Its the least that a "Christian" nation should do.


You don't make the rules for the nation. That "christian nation" meme is a desperate attempt to virtue signal when you, as a typical liberal, have no virtues.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 26, 2020)

pknopp said:


> A single mother of two working tables in a restaurant shouldn't have to choose between the electric bill and seeing about the lump she has noticed in her breast.



She doesn't.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

pknopp said:


> A single mother of two working tables in a restaurant shouldn't have to choose between the electric bill and seeing about the lump she has noticed in her breast.




Your comment has nothing to do with what I posted.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

Toro said:


> CBS News poll: Most Americans favor a national health plan
> 
> 
> But most Americans still like the health insurance they currently have and do not want private insurance to be replaced by a public option
> ...




Then why did Democrats pass Obamacare?


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

Flash said:


> For seven years I lived in a city near the Canadian border.
> 
> The waiting rooms in the doctor's office always had Cananadians that had come down to get medical care.  They would rather pay for our care than to get whatever their government gave them for free.
> 
> Socialized medicine sucks.




Excellent point.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

TheParser said:


> And if the Dem politicians do impose socialized medicine on us ordinary people, you can be sure that they and their families will be going to private practitioners and hospitals.
> 
> No mixing with (the) hoi polloi for them!
> 
> (Can you imagine the Speaker of the House trusting her facial enhancements to a government-paid health worker?)




You are 100% correct, and here is proof.

The Democrats who passed Obamacare later gave themselves all sorts of exemptions from it.

I have documented a huge number of these exemptions in this very long post on my blog.

This proves that the best criticism of Obamacare actually comes from Democrats, not Republicans.

I'm posting the beginning of what I wrote. You can click on the link to read the rest.









						Here are 341 reasons why Democrats and unions that support Obamacare want exemptions for themselves
					

Note: an amazon kindle version of this list can be purchased at Reading the list here on my blog is free. Please feel free to post a customer review of this list at Even if you do not buy the kindl…




					danfromsquirrelhill.wordpress.com
				



*
Here are 341 reasons why Democrats and unions that support Obamacare want exemptions for themselves*

1) *After Obamcare was passed, unions that supported its passage requested and received special exemptions*

Within months after Obamacare was passed, Obama gave some organizations an exemption from some of the requirements of Obamacare.  As time went on, more than 1,300 organizations received these exemptions.

More than half of the people who are covered by insurance plans that received these exemptions are in union insurance plans. These unions supported the passage of Obamacare. But immediately after Obamacare was passed, these unions wanted exemptions from the very same law that they wanted to force everyone else to obey. This reveals an extreme level of hypocrisy among many of the supporters of Obamacare.

In addition, these exemptions are illegal for two reasons – because Obama granted the exemptions without approval from Congress, and because the Constitution requires the law to treat everyone the same.

The Washington Times wrote of this:

_“Selective enforcement of the law is the first sign of tyranny. A government empowered to determine arbitrarily who may operate outside the rule of law invariably embraces favoritism as friends, allies and those with the best-funded lobbyists are rewarded. Favoritism inevitably leads to corruption, and corruption invites extortion. Ultimately, the rule of law ceases to exist in any recognizable form, and what is left is tyranny.”

“The now-familiar monthly trickling down of new waivers is, at best, a tacit admission that Obamacare is a failure. So far, seven entire states and 1,372 businesses, unions and other institutions have received waivers from the law. The list includes the administration’s friends and allies and, of course, those who have the best lobbyists.”

“More than 50 percent of the Obamacare waiver beneficiaries are union members, which is striking because union members account for less than 12 percent of the American work force. The same unions that provided more than $120 million to Democrats in the last two elections and, in many cases, openly campaigned in favor of the government takeover of your health care, now celebrate that Obamacare is not their problem.”_

2) *After Obamacare was passed, politicians who voted for it asked for a special exemption for their own districts*

Even the politicians who voted for Obamacare want exemptions for their own districts.

In response to the medical device tax that is part of Obamacare, some medical device manufacturers have announced plans to layoff employees, including Welch Allyn (275 planned layoffs), Stryker (1,170 planned layoffs), and Medtronic (1,000 planned layoffs).

In December 2012, Al Franken, Elizabeth Warren, John Kerry, and 15 other Democrats who supported the passage of Obamacare wrote a letter to Harry Reid, asking him to delay the tax on medical devices, claiming that the tax would hurt job creation in their districts.

3 ) *Politicians who voted for Obamacare wanted an additional exemption for themselves and their staff after it was passed*

This is another example of how the politicians who voted for Obamacare want exemptions for themselves.

In 2010, Obamacare was passed by the House and Senate, and signed by President Obama.

Three years later, members of Congress and their staff complained that Obamacare was going to cost them a lot of money, and said that this would likely cause a brain drain among their staff. In response to this, Obama made changes to Obamacare so that these things would not happen. However, Obama’s actions were illegal, because he made these changes without Congress voting on them first.

The New York Times wrote of this:

_… the language of the health care law requires Congressional employees to obtain health insurance through an exchange created by the law, but other parts of the federal legal code restrict the ability of the federal government to pay the usual employer share for group insurance programs approved by the Office of Personnel Management.

A straightforward reading of the law thus means that Congressional staff members, starting in January 2014, will have to obtain insurance through the Affordable Care Act but pay for it on their own without the normal contribution from their employer — Congress. This would be a multi-thousand-dollar income hit for those affected… many… would potentially feel the pain, giving rise to concerns over a potential brain drain of Congressional staff members finding other employment.

… the federal personnel office initially ruled that Congressional staff members would not be eligible for the subsidies, and then changed this decision under pressure from the White House…_

4) *An entire state that supported Obamacare asked for an exemption*

The people of Massachusetts were huge supporters of Obamacare when it was passed, and they voted for Obama in both elections. But even they eventually ended up asking for their own special exemption from Obamacare.

In August 2013, Obama gave an Obamacare waiver to Massachusetts.

This waiver was illegal for two reasons. First, the waiver was not approved by the U.S. Congress. Second, the U.S. Constitution requires that the federal government treat all states the same.

5) *Obamacare supporters at Democratic Underground later complained about it*

For some really hilarious displays of shock and outrage by supporters of Obamacare at how it’s harming people, check out these threads at Democratic Underground: one, two, three, four,  five,  six, and seven.

6)* Union members quit their union because of Obamacare*

The AFL-CIO was a big supporter of the passaage of Obamacare in 2010, and supported Obama in both elections.

In September 2013, it was reported that 40,000 longshoremen had quit the AFL-CIO, and that they had cited Obamacare as one of their reasons for doing so.

7) *Obama broke his own deadline for creating healthcare exchanges*

Even Obama himself seems to be an opponent of Obamacare.

Three years after Obama signed Obamacare, the New York Times reported that Obama would miss his own deadline for creating some of the insurance exchanges for small businesses.

8) *Obama waited until after the 2012 election to release unpopular Obamacare rules*

Obama himself is so much against Obamacare that he waited until after the 2012 election to release some of its rules.

In April 2013, the New York Times reported:

_… even fervent supporters of the law admit that things are going worse than expected.

…  the Obama administration didn’t want to release unpopular rules before the election.

Everything is turning out to be more complicated than originally envisioned.

A law that was very confusing has become mind-boggling… Americans are just going to be overwhelmed and befuddled. Many are just going to stay away, even if they are eligible for benefits._

9) *Obama illegally bypassed Congress to delay Obamacare’s employer mandate*

Here’s another example of how even Obama is against Obamacare.

As the Obamacare law was written, the employer mandate was to begin in January 2014. This is what the law said when it was passed by the House and Senate, and signed by President Obama in 2010.

However, in July 2013, Obama delayed the employer mandate part of Obamacare until January 2015. Obama did this without approval from Congress.

For Obama to change a law that was passed by Congress, without first getting approval from Congress, is a violation of the Presidential oath that Obama took to uphold and defend the Constitution.

What Obama did here is an action of a dictator, not an action of a President whose power is limited by a written constitution.

If Obama can get away with this, then it sets a horribly dangerous precedent, and means that the President can arbitrarily make any change to any law that has been passed by Congress, without first getting approval from Congress.

10) *Obama* *illegally avoided enforcing the required income verification of people who receive subsidies for Obamacare exchanges*

Here is yet another example of how Obama is against Obamacare.

Even though Obamacare requires the government to verify the income of people who receive subsidies for Obamacare exchanges, in August 2013 it was reported that Obama would not be verifying their incomes.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

CowboyTed said:


> Canada has higher health metrics than the US... So "rationed" means all people get healthcare even by you own admission




The whole point of my OP is to show examples of Canadians who did not get the health care that they needed in Canada.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Canada ranked third-last for health care among developed countries
> 
> 
> A comprehensive new study of health care systems in developed nations has ranked Canadian health care near the bottom.    Out of 11 countries, Can.
> ...




My OP includes 3 examples of Canadian politicians who came to the U.S. to get health care.

Do you have any examples of U.S. politicians going to Canada to get health care?


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

Juicin said:


> They're an aging society that doesn't have babies




Canadian women do have babies. There are some examples in my OP.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

Juicin said:


> yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper
> 
> tha't sthe important bit
> 
> Which is why Americans buy drugs from canadians, only 30 million of them and they're getting drugs cheaper than us because they're not retarded. Many of them american invented treatments




Inventing a new drug is expensive.

Manufacturing a drug is cheap.

The reason that a lot of U.S. drugs are cheaper in Canada is because the cheaper Canadian prices don't take into account the cost of inventing those drugs.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 26, 2020)

Shelzin said:


> I would note here you CAN pay for your healthcare in Canada.  You can go to a doctors office where you pay upfront.




From the OP:









						Canada's Private Clinics Surge as Public System Falters (Published 2006)
					

The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada's most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.     Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients...




					www.nytimes.com
				




The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada’s most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.

*Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country*, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years before receiving treatment.

Dr. Day, 59, says. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years.”

*Canada remains the only industrialized country that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services. *


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## Shelzin (Oct 26, 2020)

Drop Dead Fred said:


> Shelzin said:
> 
> 
> > I would note here you CAN pay for your healthcare in Canada.  You can go to a doctors office where you pay upfront.
> ...


I understand that.   I also understand that they don't really seem to be enforcing that.


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## Juicin (Oct 26, 2020)

Orangecat said:


> Juicin said:
> 
> 
> > How is me forcing us as a society to buy drugs collectively that won't cost you a dime forcing a choice on you/
> ...



It's just on the books dude

You sell it at cost. You do not need to pay for anything

We don't give it away

It's just cheap by virtue of us being a 300 million deep nation.

And how every other developed nation on the planet does things. None of which could do it as cheaply as us because we're hte largest developed nation on the planet


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## Juicin (Oct 26, 2020)

Drop Dead Fred said:


> Juicin said:
> 
> 
> > yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper
> ...



Yea so we should subsidize the worlds medical r and d expenses?

what?

retarded


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## pknopp (Oct 26, 2020)

Orangecat said:


> pknopp said:
> 
> 
> > Its the least that a "Christian" nation should do.
> ...



 I am a Christian. I am pro-life. I fully support the 2nd Amendment. I believe we need to balance the budget. I support the electoral college. What makes me a "typical liberal" and are you saying that this is NOT a Christian nation? (not that I expect you to address this)


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

Juicin said:


> It's just on the books dude


What does "on the books" mean? Also, what is "it"?


> You sell it at cost.


I don't sell anything at cost. That's a child's business model.


> You do not need to pay for anything


I like to pay my way in life. Freebies are for losers.


> We don't give it away


Who is "we" and what aren't "we" giving away?


> It's just cheap by virtue of us being a 300 million deep nation


Again, if you wish to join like-minded people to buy bulk discounted products, go for it. Why would you want to force people who do not need said product to help you pay a lower rate on what you need?


> And how every other developed nation on the planet does things.


Didn't your parents ever teach you the old "if all your friend jumped off a bridge" lesson?


> None of which could do it as cheaply as us because we're hte largest developed nation on the planet


We don't have socialized medicine because we prioritize quality, innovation, and prompt access.
There are three basic aspects to healthcare:
1. Affordability
2. Quality
3. Universal access
Reality dictates you can only have two of these in any given system. 
Socialized medicine covers universal access and affordability (if you don't count the obscene tax rates) at the cost of quality.
Choose wisely.


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

pknopp said:


> I am a Christian. I am pro-life. I fully support the 2nd Amendment. I believe we need to balance the budget. I support the electoral college. What makes me a "typical liberal" and are you saying that this is NOT a Christian nation? (not that I expect you to address this)


We aren't a christian nation. We are a nation that was founded on christian values, but we have no national religion. Just because you hold christian beliefs doesn't mean you dictate what the law should be. We vote in political representatives to determine such things.


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## pknopp (Oct 26, 2020)

Orangecat said:


> pknopp said:
> 
> 
> > I am a Christian. I am pro-life. I fully support the 2nd Amendment. I believe we need to balance the budget. I support the electoral college. What makes me a "typical liberal" and are you saying that this is NOT a Christian nation? (not that I expect you to address this)
> ...



 Great........we should do it as it's Christian values.


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## Orangecat (Oct 26, 2020)

pknopp said:


> Great........we should do it as it's Christian values.


I disagree. Get your christian friends together and do it. The government isn't beholden to your interpretation of christian values.


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## Drop Dead Fred (Oct 27, 2020)

Juicin said:


> Drop Dead Fred said:
> 
> 
> > Juicin said:
> ...




I'm in favor of the U.S. continuing to be the world leader when it comes to inventing new drugs.


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## Juicin (Oct 28, 2020)

Drop Dead Fred said:


> Juicin said:
> 
> 
> > Drop Dead Fred said:
> ...



We're world leaders in inventing everything else

Our funding wont' change that

If doctors awnted to be bankers they'd be bankers, going to school for a decade is not the optimum financial path


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## AZrailwhale (Dec 1, 2021)

CowboyTed said:


> So you live in Canada then?
> 
> Canada has higher health metrics than the US... So "rationed" means all people get healthcare even by you own admission, GOP plan is like Holocaust Healthcare, if you ain't rich you die...


Bullshit.  In the US  you either have private health insurance, get it from your employer, or if you can’t afford insurance you get it from the government for free.  It’s called Medicaid.  On Medicaid you are limited to generic medicines, if there is no generic, you are likely out of luck.  Doctors that take a Medicaid are limited in numbers so you spend long waits in offices or hospital emergency rooms.
One big reason Canada’s metrics are higher is they don’t have an endless stream of illiterate peasants streaming across their borders who have never had routine medical care.


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## AZrailwhale (Dec 1, 2021)

Shelzin said:


> Canada.  Maybe.  I'm not sure.  I would literally have to figure out how much I pay in extra taxes and see if it's more or less than I pay now for Health insurance per month. But you were looking for the answer Canada, so I'll happily give it.
> 
> I would note here you CAN pay for your healthcare in Canada.  You can go to a doctors office where you pay upfront.  I would do that if I could.


According to the article, as well as everything I have heard, going outside the government system is illegal.  It says people do go to black market doctors and officials tend to yarn a blind eye.  That’s probably because it takes pressure off the official system.


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## francoHFW (Jul 13, 2022)

Shelzin said:


> A single mother of two who dies because she can't see a doctor in a year isn't really helping anything either.


Of course if it's an emergency, they move up duh. This is crap BS from scumbag Big Health conservatives....


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## francoHFW (Jul 13, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Bullshit.  In the US  you either have private health insurance, get it from your employer, or if you can’t afford insurance you get it from the government for free.  It’s called Medicaid.  On Medicaid you are limited to generic medicines, if there is no generic, you are likely out of luck.  Doctors that take a Medicaid are limited in numbers so you spend long waits in offices or hospital emergency rooms.
> One big reason Canada’s metrics are higher is they don’t have an endless stream of illiterate peasants streaming across their borders who have never had routine medical care.


Of course there are quite a few braindead GOP states that don't have Medicaid unless you go on welfare....BRILLIANT!!! Medicaid is fine, no such generic bs except in dupe world, dupe. Pass the 2010 democratic Immigration Bill that started out with an ID card the only solution and stop being a GOP dupe.


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## francoHFW (Jul 13, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> According to the article, as well as everything I have heard, going outside the government system is illegal.  It says people do go to black market doctors and officials tend to yarn a blind eye.  That’s probably because it takes pressure off the official system.


Even with so many people not covered, we pay twice as much or almost than every other modern country. Brilliant GOP system.... Or at least what the GOP always said they wanted when the Democrats tried to pass single payer. Then they weren't even for that, the scumbag bought off swine, change the channel dupe.


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## Dragonlady (Jul 21, 2022)

Drop Dead Fred said:


> Liberals are always talking about great Canada's "universal" health care is.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, these news articles shows that it is not as "universal" as liberals claim.
> 
> ...




ALL of these articles are YEARS old.  One is from 2008.  The orthopedic surgery article is from 2017.


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## Dragonlady (Jul 21, 2022)

Shelzin said:


> A single mother of two who dies because she can't see a doctor in a year isn't really helping anything either.



And that doesn't happen either.  The system is triaged.  When I had a cancer scare last year, I saw a specialist 24 hours after she got my preliminary tests, and less than 2 weeks after I first saw my GP.  She did a biopsy.  

When my friend collapsed on the street on December 29th, her husband took her to emergency.  They did tests and admitted her immediately - an aggressive form of cancer.  She started chemo on January 2nd.  The spend the next three days stabilizing her condition, and doing more tests.  

If I need to see my GP right away - I call at 9:00 am.  They hold a certain number of appointments open each day for emergencies.  By 9:05, they're gone, but at 9:00 am, I can get in today.  Yes, I had a long wait for my knee replacement surgery, so I started early, and got in line.

Triage means that those who are sickest, are seen first.  

 But don't come here with links from 2008 and talk about how bad things are in the Canadian medical system.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jul 21, 2022)

Dragonlady said:


> ALL of these articles are YEARS old.  One is from 2008.  The orthopedic surgery article is from 2017.








						Canada’s healthcare system scores poorly against peers | Canadian Healthcare Technology
					

The Commonwealth Fund’s 2021 report comparing the healthcare systems of 11 developed countries ranked Canada in 10th place, ahead of the United States, which was at the very bottom. Finishing […]




					www.canhealth.com


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