# Is The Cost of College Worth Debt?



## Annie (Aug 8, 2010)

Perhaps the better questions are: How much debt is it worth? Is or should college the right goal for all?

Glenn Harlan Reynolds: Further thoughts on the higher education bubble | Washington Examiner



> Further thoughts on the higher education bubble
> 
> By: Glenn Harlan Reynolds
> Sunday Reflection Contributor
> ...


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## Liberty (Aug 8, 2010)

Good read. I am happy I pay cash for my tuition. (Yes, I earned it myself.)


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## syrenn (Aug 8, 2010)

If you want something...PAY for it.


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## Annie (Aug 8, 2010)

Liberty said:


> Good read. I am happy I pay cash for my tuition. (Yes, I earned it myself.)



I'm very much pro-university studies, I've spent more time in advanced studies than required schooling.  However, it's become the norm for nearly everyone to pick up after high school and that just doesn't seem to be working out for those coming out. 

We bemoan the lack of classes for the gifted and academically challenged, yet on some level seem to have bought into the idea that all are academically qualified to go to university. Is it any surprise that university education has been dummied down? 

On the other hand, how many kids that were naturally talented in trade type skills, were made to feel wrong if they weren't so keen on going to college? How well were they going to do in those required courses of British Lit? Probably as well as the average liberal arts student was in the required Trig courses, but that was one or two course out of two years required. 

Actually today's economy is for the first time in my lifetime that parents are listening to kids who say they want to try something else, before going onto college. Nearly everyone knows of someone under 25 who has a university degree but can't find an entry level job with benefits, at least one they consider entry level. Young people are trying to gain skills in what are traditionally the 'trades', though the unions aren't really hiring apprentices. The kids are picking them up off the union track. Electrical, plumbing, roofing, brick laying, all are skills and services needed. Car repairs is another. These are not jobs that China or India can be outsourced to. 

I'm guessing in a few years there will be major uproars in a state like IL, that requires union workers and wages for all work. Lots of things are changing, it will be interesting indeed to see where it all goes.


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## Toro (Aug 8, 2010)

This is an interesting topic.

The price of higher education has skyrocketed over the past 20 years, and it is now a legitimate question for many people whether or not it is worth it, especially for those getting a degree outside of the professions.

But even within the professions, it may not pay.  One paper recently concluded that it no longer made financial sense to get a degree in law unless you get a job with a top decile firm.



> *y undertaking some straight-forward analysis of the factors that come into play I hope to spur future generations of potential law school attendees to think about the question rationally, as one of making an investment. If your law school education were a stock or a bond, offered in the marketplace, would you buy it? Should you buy it? Why or why not
> 
> My methodology is as follows. First, I identify the costs of attending law school. These are two: the opportunity cost of not entering the workforce immediately after graduation from college, and the out-of-pocket costs, primarily tuition, fees and books, inherent in attending law school. Based on these costs, I calculate the annuity-like return that must be achieved to recover the costs. This process is more complicated that it might seem, as it importantly requires isolation of the true benefits in terms of compensation offered by a law degree and the identification of an appropriate discount rate for converting such incremental compensation to net present value.  ...
> 
> ...


*

SSRN-Mamas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be...Lawyers by Herwig Schlunk*


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## Liberty (Aug 8, 2010)

Annie said:


> Liberty said:
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> > Good read. I am happy I pay cash for my tuition. (Yes, I earned it myself.)
> ...



My experience at university of colorado (Ill be a senior in the fall) has overall been the same as high school to be honest. Professors are lazy, especially tenured ones, and they hand out A's fairly easily in my experience, at least in the arts and science department. I went to community college my first year of college and it was more challenging than state university. go figure.

Not to mention the simple fact that 90% of my professors hate me because i dont subscribe to their liberal indoctrination haha. my papers on political subjects such as sustainability however get graded fairly which i am happy about. My final paper of rhetoric and writing advanced was about how cap and trade is a government power play. the professor commented "I disagree with you 100% but you have a good argument" and then there was a fat A on it.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2010)

College is not for all.
Technical educations are all many desire or can handle.  And we need those people keeping things running for those with college degrees.

Everyone who works makes a contribution to our society and country and should not be belittled.


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## Greenbeard (Aug 8, 2010)

In part the answer to the question in the OP depends, of course, on what it is you want to do, in which case it may not be a simple dollars and cents analysis. I agree that not everyone may be cut out for university-level study and certainly not everyone requires a liberal arts education. But I wouldn't take that to suggest that someone should become a plumber simply to avoid taking out a student loan, even if the job in the field they want to enter ends up paying a salary comparable to what a plumber would make.

Having a degree doesn't guarantee you an entry level job when you graduate but there's no denying that a great many entry-level jobs use credentials as a sorting mechanism by requiring that applicants have a BA. So is it worth taking on debt to get a degree? Depends on what you want to do, what's important to you (just money?), and if you're looking for an intellectual experience like that. There's no reason to push everyone into university-level studies but I'm also not comfortable with pushing otherwise qualified and enthusiastic candidates away from that simply for financial reasons.


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## KissMy (Aug 8, 2010)

I have 3 Family members that have graduated over the past 2 years with nearly $100K student loan debt each. Not one of them has a full time job paying $9 per hour or more.


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## Annie (Aug 8, 2010)

Greenbeard said:


> In part the answer to the question in the OP depends, of course, on what it is you want to do, in which case it may not be a simple dollars and cents analysis. I agree that not everyone may be cut out for university-level study and certainly not everyone requires a liberal arts education. But I wouldn't take that to suggest that someone should become a plumber simply to avoid taking out a student loan, even if the job in the field they want to enter ends up paying a salary comparable to what a plumber would make.
> 
> Having a degree doesn't guarantee you an entry level job when you graduate but there's no denying that a great many entry-level jobs use credentials as a sorting mechanism by requiring that applicants have a BA. So is it worth taking on debt to get a degree? Depends on what you want to do, what's important to you (just money?), and if you're looking for an intellectual experience like that. There's no reason to push everyone into university-level studies but I'm also not comfortable with pushing otherwise qualified and enthusiastic candidates away from that simply for financial reasons.



I agree that a liberal arts background is useful in many endeavors, yet most universities have dumb down those courses so badly, that AP equivalents for the 100 level exceeds what the universities are offering. Grade inflation in most schools is also worse than in secondary schools, which is no consolation to the high school education. Truth is, AP courses are what regular courses were 50 years ago.

If a student wants engineering, medicine, law, sciences, there's no alternative to universities. The proliferation of BA's though, have led to it being a requirement to many entry level positions, with no discernible reason other than an assumption of finishing what you start. However, many employers have found that that's not true, in many cases it's just proof of loans or parents paying.


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## Liberty (Aug 8, 2010)

KissMy said:


> I have 3 Family members that have graduated over the past 2 years with nearly $100K student loan debt each. Not one of them has a full time job paying $9 per hour or more.



let me guess, one has a degree in fashion. the other has a degree in cosmetics, and the other...possibly a degree in women's studies? lol


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## Annie (Aug 8, 2010)

KissMy said:


> I have 3 Family members that have graduated over the past 2 years with nearly $100K student loan debt each. Not one of them has a full time job paying $9 per hour or more.



Two of my 3 have graduated within the past 3 years. My daughter is making over $50k, and is paying back substantial loans. She was a music ed major. It took her more years than normal though to complete, she has significant learning disabilities. However, with a music and teaching degree she is now employed by a university and is working on her master's.

My son graduated with high honors a year ago last spring. He had a full time job, without benefits for 8 months, since then has only been able to find part time work. He's returning for a master's in January. Middle child has returned to university, dropped the English major and is now in accounting program. 

I'll admit, none of my kids were naturally inclined towards hands on work. Problem with parents that also weren't. Their father has a BA, BS, MS, Phd. I've 3 BA and MS. 

As US Citizen said earlier, anyone who works contributes and should not be put down. The one thing I know as a liberal arts specialist,  there's nothing learned in university in that realm that one cannot learn through self-study, especially if you publish and accept criticism.


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## Samson (Aug 8, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> College is not for all.
> Technical educations are all many desire or can handle.  And we need those people keeping things running for those with college degrees.
> 
> Everyone who works makes a contribution to our society and country and should not be belittled.



You are correct.

But, what Annie is saying, "on some level seem to have bought into the idea that all are academically qualified to go to university," is also my experience: high school counsellors rarely know how to "track" anyone outside "college prep." As a result, ROTC is effectively non-existant. Technical Educations are available to some, in VERY large school systems, but it is extremely difficult to qualify for them.


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## Wry Catcher (Aug 8, 2010)

The value of education is not measured by income.


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## Samson (Aug 8, 2010)

Annie said:


> KissMy said:
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> > I have 3 Family members that have graduated over the past 2 years with nearly $100K student loan debt each. Not one of them has a full time job paying $9 per hour or more.
> ...



My solution to the difficulty in high-school education is to transform all public high schools to technical institutions. If a 14 year old's parents wanted them to go to college, then they would be responsible for paying all, or part (depending on income) of the college prep tuition. The lowest cost alternative for collge prep would be internet based campuses, but other alternatives, private schools, and community colleges would also be available.


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## IanC (Aug 8, 2010)

If high schools still had academic tracts and significant standards we wouldn't need to have children spend the money or the time just to signal to prospective employers that they are intelligent and diligent workers. Anything more than about 25% of HS grads going to university probably means degees are largely dumbed down.


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## Annie (Aug 8, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> The value of education is not measured by income.



and the level of education does not necessarily reflect knowledge. Worse yet, it no longer necessarily even represents the quality of persistence.


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## Samson (Aug 8, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> The value of education is not measured by income.




It is measured by the number of non-sequitur posts a graduate makes.


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## Samson (Aug 8, 2010)

Annie said:


> Wry Catcher said:
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"Quality of Persistence?".....seems to be a very subjective measure.

Most employers realise that a degree and a GPA doesn't tell the "whole story."


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## psikeyhackr (Aug 8, 2010)

Samson said:


> Annie said:
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Do you ever consider that employers want their employees in debt?

I had a former Xerox sales manager tell me that he liked for his salesman to be in debt because it made them hustle.  So it could be more than just a matter of whether or not the education is worth the money.

If we really wanted to educate people wouldn't it make sense to create a national recommended reading list.  But do educators want everyone thinking that they just need to read/study the right books?

psik


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## blu (Aug 8, 2010)

depends on the degree. my advice to people would be work hard in high school and get a scholarship whether through one of the many programs in each state or from the university you attend itself. I left college with $0 debt because of scholarships and didn't have to work except summers allowing me to focus more on studying and research.


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## Samson (Aug 8, 2010)

psikeyhackr said:


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No I never considered that employers want employees in debt.....but then, I've never been asked by an employer how much debt I'm in........maybe the next time I have an interview, I'll bring up the subject of my inability to pay off my debts!! No doubt that will impress them enough to give me a job!!!


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## blu (Aug 8, 2010)

Samson said:


> psikeyhackr said:
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many places run credit checks as part of the hiring process. I had to do that at the place I worked over two summers b/c they did security work for financial places


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## Samson (Aug 8, 2010)

blu said:


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Do you know why?


Because employees in crushing debt will steal.

I was being facetious with poor psik.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2010)

KissMy said:


> I have 3 Family members that have graduated over the past 2 years with nearly $100K student loan debt each. Not one of them has a full time job paying $9 per hour or more.



Yes and that trend will worsen or at best hold steady for the next 10-15 years at least.


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## KissMy (Aug 9, 2010)

The New York Times has an interesting article on this subject: Placing the Blame as Students Are Buried in Debt


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## Douger (Aug 9, 2010)

syrenn said:


> If you want something...PAY for it.


You already do FOOL.
It's called taxation without representation.


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## Samson (Aug 9, 2010)

KissMy said:


> The New York Times has an interesting article on this subject: Placing the Blame as Students Are Buried in Debt



Yes, and, predictably, the NYT downplays personal responsibility in favor of "blameing" colleges:



> They and their families made borrowing decisions based more on emotion than reason, much as subprime borrowers assumed the value of their houses would always go up.
> 
> *Meanwhile, universities like N.Y.U. enrolled students without asking many questions about whether they could afford a $50,000 annual tuition bill.* Then the colleges introduced the students to lenders who underwrote big loans without any idea of what the students might earn someday &#8212; just like the mortgage lenders who didn&#8217;t ask borrowers to verify their incomes.
> 
> ...



Later in the article NYT blames Citi Bank for lending money when the credit was already bad.

Still later, buried on the second page, we finally learn what the REAL PROBLEM IS: Why Ms Munna cannot repay the loan?

*Ms Munna has a degree in what amounts to Underwater Basketweaving*:



> She recently received a raise and now makes $22 an hour working for a photographer. It&#8217;s the highest salary she&#8217;s earned since graduating with an interdisciplinary degree in religious and women&#8217;s studies.





She fucked off studying worthless bullshit for YEARS on the public dime, now cannot understand why she owes so much money? Hey, I have an idea: Join the Army, and payoff your fucking loan, you lazy bitch.


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## Wry Catcher (Aug 9, 2010)

According to a study released by the College Board, the United States is lagging behind other nations in college completion rates, an area in which the U.S. was once dominant. Now the U.S. has fallen to 12th among 36 developed nations for the number of 25 to 34-year-olds with college degrees.
&#8220;In the global economy, the disadvantage is that we won&#8217;t be able to compete as well as other nations,&#8221; said John Lee, assistant researcher with College Board. &#8220;It goes back to a sort of American competitiveness on a local and a global scale.&#8221;
By 2018, 63 percent of the jobs in the U.S. will require some sort of post-secondary degree, but if only about 40 percent of people can actually access those jobs, we&#8217;ll have to either import that labor or eliminate those jobs, Lee said

To read the entire article, from the Daily Nebraskan, see:

Daily Nebraskan - US drops to 12th among college degrees earned


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## Annie (Aug 9, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> According to a study released by the College Board, the United States is lagging behind other nations in college completion rates, an area in which the U.S. was once dominant. Now the U.S. has fallen to 12th among 36 developed nations for the number of 25 to 34-year-olds with college degrees.
> In the global economy, the disadvantage is that we wont be able to compete as well as other nations, said John Lee, assistant researcher with College Board. It goes back to a sort of American competitiveness on a local and a global scale.
> By 2018, 63 percent of the jobs in the U.S. will require some sort of post-secondary degree, but if only about 40 percent of people can actually access those jobs, well have to either import that labor or eliminate those jobs, Lee said
> 
> ...



Surprising that the College Board would use that sort of spin. Bottom line is that nearly everyone from an electrician to the auto repair guy to the person that takes blood for your CBC, has some sort of post-secondary training. It does not need to be university.


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## Samson (Aug 9, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> According to a study released by the College Board, the United States is lagging behind other nations in college completion rates, an area in which the U.S. was once dominant. Now the U.S. has fallen to 12th among 36 developed nations for the number of 25 to 34-year-olds with college degrees.
> In the global economy, the disadvantage is that we wont be able to compete as well as other nations, said John Lee, assistant researcher with College Board. It goes back to a sort of American competitiveness on a local and a global scale.
> By 2018, 63 percent of the jobs in the U.S. will require some sort of post-secondary degree, but if only about 40 percent of people can actually access those jobs, well have to either import that labor or eliminate those jobs, Lee said
> 
> ...



I believe a representative from the College Board could be disingenuos in his conclusion:

A nation that is #1 in _the number_ of 25-34 yos with college degrees, mightn't be as competitive in the global economy if they all hold an "interdisciplinary degree in religious and womens studies."


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## KissMy (Aug 9, 2010)

Liberty said:


> KissMy said:
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> > I have 3 Family members that have graduated over the past 2 years with nearly $100K student loan debt each. Not one of them has a full time job paying $9 per hour or more.
> ...



The 23 year old step niece has a degree in Marketing & has applied at about 100 places landed a job as a Macy's sales woman. Just this week got promoted to full time making $8.80

The 25 year old cousin has a Solid Works Computer Aided Drafting & Design degree. Has had 2 jobs at business that went under where he achieved $8.95hr but is now temp working on a farm for $9.00 hr

The 22 year old niece has a Business degree & made $9.00hr working in a nursing home. Now pregnant & unemployed.

I have a 18 year old niece who just graduated H.S. with honors. She is starting college to be a Veterinarian for large animals. 5 states currently have a shortage of vets & are willing to pay for her education. Hopefully she will be a success.


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## topspin (Aug 9, 2010)

An average 4 year degree will net the student 2.5 million more over a career vs no college. We hire petroleum engineers at $80,000 right out of school with a sighning bonus. Much depends on the college and the student.


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## rdean (Aug 9, 2010)

Liberty said:


> KissMy said:
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> > I have 3 Family members that have graduated over the past 2 years with nearly $100K student loan debt each. Not one of them has a full time job paying $9 per hour or more.
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No, "Bible" study.


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## rdean (Aug 9, 2010)

KissMy said:


> Liberty said:
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100k learning "Marketing"?  Sounds like a swindle.

Business degree?  Funny, when I was going to Roosevelt University here in Chicago on the GI bill, two of my physics classes had 4 and 6 six students.  

Part of the program were classes in both Accounting and Management.  The Accounting class was held in three rooms where the "accordion walls" had to be opened to make one gigantic room.  The Management class needed to be moved to a "forum" and people still sat on the "stairs".  

44 students were in Calculus 1, 23 in Calculus 2 and 10 in Calculus 3 with 8 actually passing the course.

I was wondering where all those "business majors" were going to get a job?   Now I know.

Computer Aided Drafting & Design?  And can't get a job?  Hmmm.  I didn't even know they still taught that?  I thought everything today was Inventor and Solidworks.

Too bad they didn't go into the military.  At that young age, they still could.

As long as corporations keep moving jobs overseas, paid for by "tax breaks", they will never get jobs.


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## topspin (Aug 9, 2010)

Accounting is the top degree in the business field, there are over 400,000 and growing. It's one of the top paying degrees, behind engineering which is harder.


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## rightwinger (Aug 9, 2010)

It depends on the student and it depends on the major

Some majors are not worth the amount of money you have to pay to achieve a degree. To pay $100,000 for a degree that will never pay more than $40K is not worth it.

Some students are just not worth the investment


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## Samson (Aug 9, 2010)

topspin said:


> Accounting is the top degree in the business field, there are over 400,000 and growing. It's one of the top paying degrees, behind engineering which is harder.



My undergrad is Chemical Engineering, but I've taken the undergrad and grad Accounting courses for an MBA.

I hate accounting.


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## Samson (Aug 9, 2010)

rdean said:


> Too bad they didn't go into the military.  At that young age, they still could.





Shit, rdean, that's a damn intelligent statement.......see how much a few days of rest, and taking your meds helps!!


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## KissMy (Aug 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> topspin said:
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> ...



It is going to suck for graduates when we switch from (GAAP) Generally Accepted Accounting Principles - to - (IFRF) International Financial Reporting Standards.


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## AquaAthena (Aug 9, 2010)

Liberty said:


> Good read. I am happy I pay cash for my tuition. (Yes, I earned it myself.)



I recently read that too many ppl are in institutions of higher learning as 40% of them, drop out! 

Snip:

*
It is estimated that 40% of college students will leave higher education without getting a degree, with 75% percent of these students leaving within their first two years of college.* Freshman class attrition rates are typically greater than any other academic year and are commonly as high as 20-30%. These statistics show a need for colleges to do something about retention rates.

Read more: College Drop Out Rates - Who's to Blame? - StateUniversity.com Blog http://www.stateuniversity.com/blog...-Out-Rates-Who-s-to-Blame-.html#ixzz0wACYzlAI

More interesting stats:

http://www.dosomething.org/tipsandtools/11-facts-about-dropping-out


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## Liberty (Aug 9, 2010)

KissMy said:


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damn well good luck to them, i apologize for my presumptions.


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## Liberty (Aug 9, 2010)

AquaAthena said:


> Liberty said:
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> ...



ill be 24 soon so i can finally get aid. fafsa is such bullshit, i have lived on my own since i graduated high school, talk to my parents like once every couple months, and the government lables me as "dependent" and doesnt give me aid without putting in my parents tax info? major crock of shit.


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## Samson (Aug 9, 2010)

AquaAthena said:


> These statistics show a need for colleges to do something about retention rates.



Is that what the statistics show?

I thought the statistics showed colleges should be more selective in their entry requirements.


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## Samson (Aug 9, 2010)

Liberty said:


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You could join the army?


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

there has always been a high drop out rate in college.
 if you can't pay cash make loans


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## Barb (Aug 10, 2010)

In a society where government is predicated upon the *informed* consent of the governed, college education should be freely and universally available to all.


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

Barb said:


> In a society where government is predicated upon the *informed* consent of the governed, college education should be freely and universally available to all.



Thats what High School is for.


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## Barb (Aug 10, 2010)

Samson said:


> Barb said:
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> > In a society where government is predicated upon the *informed* consent of the governed, college education should be freely and universally available to all.
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Thought you'd like that.

Still, if you take a good look (and listen) around, it seems HS isn't quite doing the job.


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

Barb said:


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Stupid cannot be cured.

You could keep people in Public School until the were 65 and it wouldn't make a difference


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

we could slash mic spending and put it in free college for the bottom half of incomes.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

Screw college, be a plumber.

That's right, graduate high school and get yourself an apprentice job.  Work your way up and eventually start your own shop.

The work might be digusting at times but it pays well, and not nearly as disgusting as sitting on your ass all day in a cubicle staring at a damn computer screen and dealing with office politics.

And as an added benefit, you'll never be outsourced.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

so you like the smell of other peoples shit?


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## Barb (Aug 10, 2010)

Samson said:


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For some, the stupid by choice and the disinterested, I agree. But the fact remains that there is a major waste of true talent because those who are unable to pay and / or are afraid of the debt they'd incur don't fully develop that talent.


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

Barb said:


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GI Bill.


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Screw college, be a plumber.
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> That's right, graduate high school and get yourself an apprentice job.  Work your way up and eventually start your own shop.
> 
> ...





How do you get an "apprentice job?"


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## Barb (Aug 10, 2010)

Samson said:


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So...if they live, they get a shot at life/ Whatta DEAL!


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

Barb said:


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Well, if we had a CCC then I would have suggested it, but effectively, the Army IS a "Conservation Corps." The % of Military Combat Jobs is actually very small, and the % casulties within those jobs is also small. If you wanna learn how to cook, and you want money for college, the Army is a pretty safe option.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> so you like the smell of other peoples shit?




Smell shit, take shit, eat shit.

We all have to deal with a certain amount of shit in our lives.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

One can obtain a degree without going into debt.

It might take a little longer but it can be done.

The idea that a bunch of 18-22 year olds have to go to school full time on mommy and daddy's dime is pure bullshit.

When you're 18 get out of Mommy's house, get a fucking job and take one or two night courses all year round.  You'll have a BS in 5 years.

Or get the fuck out of Mommy's house, get a fucking job, get training in a specific skill then continue your education.

Or you can go to the fucking free library study all the basic required course material for the first couple years of any degree program and then take the CLEPs.  That way you're only paying tuition for the last two years of study.


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> so you like the smell of other peoples shit?






Can you tell the difference?


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

if you don't get a crap degree loans should be irrelevant.
 2.5MM over a career crushes loans, as stated before college is not for everyone.
 If your searching for an easy major, you prob shouldn't finance it.


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## IanC (Aug 10, 2010)

Samson said:


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I concur.


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## Annie (Aug 10, 2010)

Samson said:


> Barb said:
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As well as grammar school. Do you know how few schools currently teach civics? Have you looked at American history texts? 

As for college teaching 'government,' history is not required at most university, just X numbers from the social sciences. History or political science among the choices.


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## IanC (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> if you don't get a crap degree loans should be irrelevant.
> 2.5MM over a career crushes loans, as stated before college is not for everyone.
> If your searching for an easy major, you prob shouldn't finance it.





From the old tuna commercials-
"Charlie, people don't want tunas with good taste, people want tuna that taste good"


Universities should reel back fluff degrees and impose real standards and grades.


----------



## blu (Aug 10, 2010)

Annie said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



yep! i got out of college not taking a single history course by taking extra physics & comp sci for my electives. was awesome, didn't have to deal with 20 pages papers that no one cares about and no douchebag professors droning on about nothing


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

Annie said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



Well, I meant ALL public schooling, not JUST high school.

No, I have not looked at any US History Text: regardless, I'm certain that Humans teach the subject, and are spinning it to whatever doctrine they hold for themselves. Eventually, however, kids get the best lesson in Government when they see their first pay-stub, and it includes total wages less FICA, SS, Medicare....etc., etc.



blu said:


> yep! i got out of college not taking a single history course by taking extra physics & comp sci for my electives. was awesome, didn't have to deal with 20 pages papers that no one cares about and no douchebag professors droning on about nothing



Really? 6 hrs of US History, and 6 hours of US Gov't was manditory at the state university I went to.  But that was back when Reagan was President.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

I think a better question would be, "Is college education worth the cost?"

I don't think it is.  If you think of it like this you may see why.

Let's assume for the sake of this example that a college degree costs 100K.  You say a degree is worth an extra 2 million in income over a lifetime than one without a degree would earn.

If you invested that 100K at age 18 and earned an average of 8% until age 65 you would have nearly 4.25 million.  Seems to me the degree ain't worth the money.  So the person without the degree would be more than 2 million dollars ahead of the person with the degree.


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> I think a better question would be, "Is college education worth the cost?"
> 
> I don't think it is.



Indeed, it depends.

If you go to a very selective college, and you major in Finance, and you get a $200,000signing bonus with a huge Brokerage House...

Frankly, I don't know why this is such a difficult problem: _Pick a major that will cause you to market yourself to someone willing to pay for your degree!_

Why, then, would anyone spend more than $200 for a degree in UnderWaterBasket Weaving?

Why would anyone get a BA in Elementary Education that costs $100,000???


Let's just get real a moment: These parents, and their kids aren't THAT STUPID.

They are paying what was once called a "Dowery." University costs began to soar when more women began to attend college that men...coincidance? I think not. Parents are paying to send little Muffy off to college to find a husband.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> I think a better question would be, "Is college education worth the cost?"
> 
> I don't think it is.  If you think of it like this you may see why.
> 
> ...




a.  Where's an 18 year-old going to get $100K to invest?

b.  An 8% return?  In what dream world?


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I think a better question would be, "Is college education worth the cost?"
> ...



Where does an 18 year old get 100K to pay for college?

And over a lifetime if you can't get 8%, you're a moron.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




Loans, scholarships, parents.

The days of 8% returns are long gone.


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## GHook93 (Aug 10, 2010)

Grad school is becoming less and less worth it. But undergrad is necessary. Face blue collar jobs are starting to non-exist. Construction jobs are going to illegals. American society almost makes having a college degree essential.

You can thank the Great Imposter President Bill "Yea I Screwed Things Up and Like Obama I Can Just Blame It On Bush" Clinton.

Clinton is the man who made student loans non-dischargable. Which lead to even the worst shit-hole college being able to charge $10K+ a semester, since student loans were tossed around like candy to anyone with a pulse. Then the good college could charge whatever for the same reason. The large increase in tuition came after Clinton did this ill-advised move and they keep going up at the same rate, even during this shit economy. 

Grad school even got worse. Sorry, but college used to be moderately expensive and now it has gotten well out of control expensive solely because to Bill "I Suck" Clinton.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



So you are prescient now?  Over a 45 year span, you can with complete confidence say it's impossible to average an 8% return?

Tell me if your able to see the future with such certainty, then why don't you tell us what the next lotto numbers will be.

Just so you know if you want to invest well, do what successful investors do

Buffett and Berkshire outperform all mutual funds FundWatch - MarketWatch 



> Berkshire's Class-A shares have delivered returns of 22% a year since 1965, based on market price, though Buffett prefers to judge gains according to book value, which stand at 20.3%.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

Public school colleges are not 100,000 tuition not around here.

 I'd wager the greater majority of those arguing against college didn't go. Another factor not considered is those without degrees often get shit on changing jobs and having to start over.
 I have no problem using the 8% return cause you'd have gotten more than that in stocks since I've been out.


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## Annie (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> Public school colleges are not 100,000 tuition not around here.
> 
> I'd wager the greater majority of those arguing against college didn't go. Another factor not considered is those without degrees often get shit on changing jobs and having to start over.
> I have no problem using the 8% return cause you'd have gotten more than that in stocks since I've been out.



What public university is not $25k a year with tuition, room & board, books, and travel? 

I'd guess many of those arguing that college ISN'T Right for Everyone, have college. I know I do.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

every study I've seen takes cost into account.
 Room and board are a cost if you don't go to school as well.
Average tuition at a public school is about 15,000 a year. 60k
 vs 2.5MM more in earnings
 To me it's a no brainer if you pick a decent degree.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> Public school colleges are not 100,000 tuition not around here.
> 
> I'd wager the greater majority of those arguing against college didn't go. Another factor not considered is those without degrees often get shit on changing jobs and having to start over.
> I have no problem using the 8% return cause you'd have gotten more than that in stocks since I've been out.



I went to college.  I have 2 Bachelors and a Masters.

Guess what those degrees aren't being used at all in my current business.

And as I said before the first 2 years of college in any degree program are pretty worthless.  You can get the same knowledge for free at a library and take the CLEPs for college credit.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> every study I've seen takes cost into account.
> Room and board are a cost if you don't go to school as well.
> Average tuition at a public school is about 15,000 a year. 60k
> vs 2.5MM more in earnings
> To me it's a no brainer if you pick a decent degree.



That same 60K earning 8% for 47 years (age 18 to 65) would yield the same 2.5million without having to go to college.

So the return on the investment does not warrant the time spent in school.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




OK, let's assume you're right and an 8% return over a lifetime is possible. 

Your premise is still ridiculous.  Assuming an 18 year old can scrape together $100K or that his parents give it to him to invest does not address the issue of condemning him to working some low paying, insecure job for 45 years so he has a nest egg at age 65.

Doesn't sound like much of a life to me.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



You assume a lot don't you?

What if he started a business and made a fairly comfortable wage and still had a nest egg at 65.

Why do you assume a person without a college degree must work a low paying insecure job?  I know a lot of people with college degrees that have insecure jobs but my plumber with no degree who has his own business is still working and making more than the college grad.


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## psikeyhackr (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> One can obtain a degree without going into debt.
> 
> It might take a little longer but it can be done.
> 
> ...



Why not provide worthwhile courses in high school and tell EVERYBODY which books are actually worth a damn and eliminate all of the time wasting garbage.  Take half a dozen computer courses and they never do a competent job of explaining how a von Neumann machine works.  What they call education is often just another scam.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg96tefnEU]YouTube - &#x202a;SF & von Neumann machine basics&#x202c;&lrm;[/ame]

psik


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull many more businesses fail than succeed.
 Again no kids have 60k to invest instead of going to school.
 Kudo's on your success Bill Gates did it without college that is not the point.
 On average those with a degree make 2.5MM more than those without.
 I got an MBA that prob didn't help in my financail analyst job much, it help alot in making me an above average investor though.
 There is a reason why college goes up so much each year, demand for higher paying jobs. PERIOD


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




There are always exceptions. 

A kid, for example, with strong entreprenaurial talents doesn't need any schooling at all. 

Nor does an exceptional athlete.

Or a entertainer.

But by and large, the vast majority of people with college degrees do far better over a lifetime than those without.

And yes, I mentioned plumbing as a career earlier in this thread.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> Skull many more businesses fail than succeed.
> Again no kids have 60k to invest instead of going to school.
> Kudo's on your success Bill Gates did it without college that is not the point.
> On average those with a degree make 2.5MM more than those without.
> ...



They get the money for school though don't they?  That same money could be better put to use than getting a degree.

You don't have to have a degree to be educated and earn a good living.  I know several people who educated themselves and are doing better than anyone I know.  One of my best friends didn't go to college.  When I was studying and working 3 jobs to pay for school, he was working 3 jobs just like me but when he was 22 he owned 3 rental properties and I owed a ton of money.

At 35 he was worth over 2 million.  At 45 he's comfortably retired.


----------



## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

Nobody said it's necessary, don't be so sensitve. Like Mr Clean correctly say's on average those with a degree earn way more than those without. That's why it cost so much, demand for high paying jobs.
 Look at any list of top ten salaried jobs, they are all 4 yr degree'd jobs.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



Very few people can be pro athletes.  the same restrictions do not apply to the business world.  Anyone can work for themselves and be successful.  The problem is that people like you tell them that they can't.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

Look up failed businesses, way more fail than succeed. Do you have kids? Would you tell them college is a waiste? Income is not the only benefit of college.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




If it were that easy, we'd all be in business for ourselves making tons of money doing something we love.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> Nobody said it's necessary, don't be so sensitve. Like Mr Clean correctly say's on average those with a degree earn way more than those without. That's why it cost so much, demand for high paying jobs.
> Look at any list of top ten salaried jobs, they are all 4 yr degree'd jobs.



What's the sensitive comment?

just because I disagree with you, I am somehow upset?

Believe me, I'm not.  I have an entirely different point of view than you that's all.

The difference is that you think you have to work for someone else, to get a job. I don't think like that.  And I think that we should be teaching our kids to think more like me than like you.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



So why aren't you?  The only person holding you back is you.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> Look up failed businesses, way more fail than succeed. Do you have kids? Would you tell them college is a waiste? Income is not the only benefit of college.



Really, because income is the only benefit this thread is discussing.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

Well your successfull and biased. Look up the facts that's what Mr Clean and me are talking about.
   It's harder to do what you've done, though some might argue your degree's made you smart enough to do it.
 I've never seen any article saying anywhere near 50% of businesses succeeding.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




My working days are behind me, but that's beside the point.  I had a moderately successful career that allowed me to retire at 50.  But my job was never really anything more than a paycheck. 

If I had to do it over again, I would have gone the plumbing route like a I said earlier.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> Well your successfull and biased. Look up the facts that's what Mr Clean and me are talking about.
> It's harder to do what you've done, though some might argue your degree's made you smart enough to do it.
> I've never seen any article saying anywhere near 50% of businesses succeeding.



Define success.

Is it sitting in traffic for hours a day with the rest of the sheep or is it controlling your own life?

I know the facts.  I've been working for myself since i was 19. In fact my first business put me through school. I used one year's tuition to set it up and I used it as a tool to get an education because i was conditioned to think i needed a degree to be successful when in fact I was making more money at my business cleaning houses and office buildings than i did in my first engineering job.

I sold that business when I graduated but I was determined to work for myself after a few years of being told what to do by some idiot who didn't know his ass from his elbow.

I never quit trying and i had a few ventures that didn't work out.  You see that as a negative.  I don't.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

congrats on that, I just hit the fifty myself and am dying to leave.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

skull again congrats, none of that changes any facts. Most business fail.
 I never sat in traffic, and doing accounting to me is much better than cleaning anything or working hard. I hit a million before 50, the average millionaire owns his own businees and it takes him till 59 to get there.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> skull again congrats, none of that changes any facts. Most business fail.
> I never sat in traffic, and doing accounting to me is much better than cleaning anything or working hard. I hit a million before 50, the average millionaire owns his own businees and it takes him till 59 to get there.




I had 4 crews doing the cleaning.  After my first year I did very little of that. The whole point of owning a business is to employ people and multiply your income streams.

And you were taught to believe that a failed business is a bad thing.  Tell me how many people who work for themselves had other businesses that failed. And how many of those that failed quit after the first try.

You'll find that those who didn't quit made it but the stats reflect those that tried only once and failed never to venture again.

I could use your logic and say that most people are turned down for jobs than get them.

How many interviews did you go on to get a job, just one? 5? 10? Then most interviews are failures are they not?


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

most people drop out of college too.
 I bet if you look up average income for self employed it's lower than average bachelors degree. One off examples are a dime a dozen.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> most people drop out of college too.
> I bet if you look up average income for self employed it's lower than average bachelors degree. One off examples are a dime a dozen.



A BS is just that.  bullshit

Tell me then why was i making more from my cleaning business than I did my first year as an electrical engineer?  I'll tell you why.  Because I was multiplying my effort by hiring cleaning crews.

*&#8220;I would rather earn 1% off a 100 people's efforts than 100% of my own efforts.&#8221;
*_-John D Rockefeller_

This is what we should be teaching.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

we start petrolium engineers at $80,000. Most educated people would rather do something like that than clean toilets.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> we start petrolium engineers at $80,000. Most educated people would rather do something like that than clean toilets.



Snob.

How many petroleum engineer positions are there that pay that the first year?  Not too many I'll venture and the average engineer salary when i was in school was way less than that.

And I told you, I wasn't cleaning.  i had crews cleaning for me.  If you can't understand that then you are only capable of working for someone else.


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## boedicca (Aug 10, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> The value of education is not measured by income.




Then going into massive amounts of debt for it is rather silly.


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## boedicca (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> One off examples are a dime a dozen.




And such one off examples are worth orders of magnitude more than your silly little opinions.


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## Richard-H (Aug 10, 2010)

Since the 1970s there has been a massive over-evaluation of college education by employers and a massive under-evaluation of labor.

Most college educated do not produce in real terms nearly what they are paid, while labor, especially skilled labor produces the majority of the world's wealth.

It seems that social engineering is the reason for this situation.

Education should be a goal unto itself - not a ticket to hire income. Productive work should be the determinant of income.

What's worse is the overall belief that college is the only way that people get educated. 

Truly educated people educate themselves - and continue to educate themselves throughout their lives. Many college grads limit their education to just the minimum needed to get their degrees - and in fact remain wholly uneducated.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

I am a snob cleaning toilets is beneath me and most college grads.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> I am a snob cleaning toilets is beneath me and most college grads.



So who cleans yours?

For someone so educated you really have a hard time understanding the difference between being an employee, a self employed employee and a business owner.

As an employee someone owns your job and you have absolutely no control over anything related to that job.

As a self employed person, you own your job.  You have complete control and on average you can make the same as you would working for someone else.

As a business owner, you own the jobs of others and multiply your efforts.  Your earning potential is limitless where in the other two options your income is bound by how many hours you alone can work or how many hours a boss lets you work.

A business owner can make money if he himself does not work.  I could clean 4 big houses a day when I was doing all the work I averaged 200 a day ( 25 years ago)  After my first year I ran 2 crews that cleaned 10 houses a day even after paying them I more than doubled my income even though i was not cleaning anymore.  After 4 years I had 4 crews that cleaned 20 houses a day and 5 office buildings a night my income tripled and I never cleaned a toilet.

If you can't see that an owner of a cleaning business can leverage the efforts of others to make more than one engineer working for someone else then you are destined to be a wage slave.  May your chains lie lightly upon you.


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## topspin (Aug 10, 2010)

I have an MBA and can run circles around you in business knowledge janitor.


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## rdean (Aug 10, 2010)

Samson said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad they didn't go into the military.  At that young age, they still could.
> ...



I didn't take my meds.  I took YOUR meds.  Which is why I needed the time to recover.


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## rdean (Aug 10, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Screw college, be a plumber.
> 
> That's right, graduate high school and get yourself an apprentice job.  Work your way up and eventually start your own shop.
> 
> ...



Yes and no.  I've been to the sales department and it's exactly as you say.  You are basically passing on information like a baton.  You never get to start the race and you never get to finish the race.  For some, it's enough.  For others, it's carpal tunnel syndrome.

As a design engineer,  you get to design "stuff".  It's like "project runway".  Seeing people building what you design.  Seeing it go from computer to shop floor.  Seeing it "turned on" for the first time.  Seeing it in brochures.  Seeing it crated and out the door.  Seeing the first 100 milestone.  Knowing that it's filling the paychecks of hundreds of people.  

We've lost that in this country.  People want only average.  The easy way.  The "lottery".

A new guy working on the assembly line once asked me, "What do you do here?"  I said, "See that equipment your building?  I designed it".  He said, "You expect me to believe that?"  I said, "Why would I lie about something that you could ask anyone for the truth?"  And wouldn't you know it.  As soon as the last presidential election started making news, he was telling everyone, "Vote Republican" and saying he wished Bush could run again.  I was not at all surprised.


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## Samson (Aug 10, 2010)

topspin said:


> I have an MBA and can run circles around you in business knowledge janitor.



*^^^^*

Why I'm reluctant to say I have an MBA


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## Mr. H. (Aug 10, 2010)

My son is 10's of k's in debt, but he went to the college of his choice and is working in the industry of his dreams. He makes good money but lives in L.A. which equates to making half that amount and living in the midwest. Yeah it was worth it. Besides when I croak he'll inherit enuf to pay it all off.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 11, 2010)

topspin said:


> I have an MBA and can run circles around you in business knowledge janitor.


I have 2 bachelors and a masters

And I never was a janitor you fucking elitist snob.  I sold that cleaning business over 20 years ago and used the money to start my next business.  

And if you're so business savvy, why aren't you a business owner?  How many people did you employ when you were 23 years old.  I had 15 employees.

 Tell me did your business grow 18% during the last 2 years despite the economy?  Oh that's right I forgot you're a wage slave.

Be a good boy now and go kiss your boss's ass because we know you certainly don't have the balls to control your own destiny.


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## psikeyhackr (Aug 11, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0wk4qG2mIg]YouTube - &#x202a;Harvard Graduates Explain Seasons&#x202c;&lrm;[/ame]

ROFLMAO

Of course the average employer doesn't care if an employee can't explain the seasons.

The MBA's don't talk about the planned obsolescence of automobiles either.

PBS Discussions :: View topic - The Algebra of Economics

Work your life away going into debt to buy garbage designed to become obsolete.

That is why we have this mess.  How much has the world lost on the depreciation of crapmobiles in the last 50 years?  What if half that much had been used to pay off mortgages at an accelerated rate?

psik


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## topspin (Aug 11, 2010)

skull douce, not everyone has a hard on for owning a business. I had my site on becoming a millionaire by investing. I did it a decade earlier than the average millionaire takes (49 vs 59). I don't care if you have more. I don't work long hours or work hard, never have. I've lived a very comfortable country club lifestyle cause that's what I choose. I put my family above career.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 11, 2010)

topspin said:


> skull douce, not everyone has a hard on for owning a business. I had my site on becoming a millionaire by investing. I did it a decade earlier than the average millionaire takes (49 vs 50). I don't care if you have more. I don't work long hours or work hard, never have. I've lived a very comfortable country club lifestyle cause that's what I choose. I put my family above career.


If you don't care to own a business then why tout yourself as knowing more than me Mr "I have an MBA"?  Big fucking deal; the idiot who runs the Dunkin Donuts down the street from me has an MBA.

And you better check your math smart guy.  1 year is not a decade.

I don't give a flying fuck what you have or don't have or what other fucking snobs you associate with. 

That look down your nose elitist attitude is my problem.  So if you feel the need to measure dicks, my wife and I netted 1 million in that last 4 years alone and I would still rather hang out with the plumber, electrician and carpenter than an effete snobbish asshole like you.

And whatever you assume about my family, you're wrong.  You have no clue about that or much else as far as I can tell.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Aug 11, 2010)

Annie said:


> Liberty said:
> 
> 
> > Good read. I am happy I pay cash for my tuition. (Yes, I earned it myself.)
> ...



I have noticed over time that "do-it-yourself" skills, which were once common, have virtually vanished from native-born Americans.  Where I live, if you need home remodeling work of any type done, chances are excellent that you're hiring a Mexican-American, or possibly an Asian-American.  And I am using these hyphenations deliberately to denote someone who was not born in this country, or at most someone whose parents were not born here.

It's not just traditionally male skills, either.  Domestic skills that one would once have taken for granted in most women are disappearing, too.  It is a huge shocker to people that I can not only repair my own clothing when it's damaged, but I can actually make a garment from scratch.  Crochet is so dirt-simple that I can do it in a darkened theater while watching a movie, but show someone a completed project, and you would think I just spun straw into gold before their eyes.  Even cooking, on a basic domestic "my family needs dinner" level is becoming a rarity.  You're either a serious "foodie" going on about gourmet cuisine, or you're making a lot of frozen lasagna or Hamburger Helper, it seems.  Take a batch of homemade tamales to a Christmas party and you're suddenly Julia Child.


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## topspin (Aug 11, 2010)

I don't care if you have 10 mill. I wouldn't clean toilets janitor. And I'll leave the guys dicks for you. I'm not gay.


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## rightwinger (Aug 11, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > Liberty said:
> ...



You are so right. Cooking skills are a lost art. People will spend $40,000 on a professional quality kitchen and not know how to crack an egg. 

I live in a neighborhood where most of the original owners are in their 50s. We have small quarter acre lots and all the original owners use push mowers to cut the grass (it takes 20 min). The new owners in their 20's who all work out in the gym either buy an expensive lawn tractor or hire Mexicans to cut their grass.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> I don't care if you have 10 mill. I wouldn't clean toilets janitor. And I'll leave the guys dicks for you. I'm not gay.



We all know you're too fucking stupid to be anything but a wage slave.  You're the one who thinks that the difference between 49 and 50 is a decade.  Tell me do you multiply everything by 10 so you can delude yourself that you actually are worth something?
.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

It's 49 vs 59. Do you hire illegals?


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> It's 49 vs 59. Do you hire illegals?



Not what you said before idiot. So not only can you not do basic math, you can't type either.  Yeah you're super smart aren't you?

How many times do I have to tell you that I sold that cleaning business over 20 years ago? For quite a pretty penny i might add

FYI now I am in the medical services business that serves people in 3 states and have two doctors working for me because they, like you would rather work for someone else because they, like you don't have the acumen to run a successful business.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

Good for you douche. Will you tell your kids college is a waist?


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## Samson (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> Good for you douche. Will you tell your kids college is a waist?



I'm serious thinking of bribing my 16 yo to join the National Guard after his b'day this May. He could then do his basic during the summer, and his duty next year, then be prepared to join some service when he graduates 2013.....4 year hitch, and GI Bill.....learns a trade in the military and has the option of going to college.....

My dream


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> Good for you douche. Will you tell your kids college is a waist?



And you can't spell either.

It's waste you fucking moron.

yeah I really believe you're some hot shot investor country club going college edumacated snob now.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

spelling doesn't equal pay janitor
 A million is plenty for me
 I once wanted my sons to do military, decided bullet catching not so good. They both wrestled in college and one was All American.


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## Samson (Aug 12, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > Good for you douche. Will you tell your kids college is a waist?
> ...



"educated"


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > Good for you douche. Will you tell your kids college is a waist?
> ...



 that would be a hot shot investor that can kick your ass janitor


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > topspin said:
> ...



Not in net worth or in any other way faggot.

Just think of all the time and money you "waisted" on college and you didn't even come away with the most basic grasp of the English language.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

your the moron 3 degrees and you don't think any of them made you smarter to run a business. LOFL Janitor


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> your the moron 3 degrees and you don't think any of them made you smarter to run a business. LOFL Janitor



Where did I ever say that?

I said the first two years of any degree are a waste (see that's how you spell it) and those first two years can be had for free at a library all one has to do is take the CLEPs.

But you couldn't do that because you need people to tell you what to do which is why you could never work for yourself.


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## Annie (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> your the moron 3 degrees and you don't think any of them made you smarter to run a business. LOFL Janitor



Huh? Speak English, please.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

bunch of ass clowns here. Some republiKlan posted the list of lowest paying degrees saying that' s why liberals attack the rich. Most of those degrees are liberal arts.
 Almost all of them are higher paying than median income. Dammm!!!


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## Samson (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> bunch of ass clowns here. Some republiKlan posted the list of lowest paying degrees saying that' s why liberals attack the rich. Most of those degrees are liberal arts.
> Almost all of them are higher paying than median income. Dammm!!!




Am I the only one smelling the strong stench of troll?


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

your smelling your fear of facts you doucebag


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> your smelling your fear of facts you doucebag



It's* douche *bag, douche bag.

Are you too fucking stupid to use spell check?


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm tapping out fast on an iPhone. I could give too shits about spelling and grammar. Those who can't attack your facts attack your spelling or personality. Those that go to college on average make way more than those that don't. Janitor


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## Annie (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> I'm tapping out fast on an iPhone. I could give too shits about spelling and grammar. Those who can't attack your facts attack your spelling or personality. Those that go to college on average make way more than those that don't. Janitor



Your fixation on the use of 'janitor' implies you feel superior to those employed in certain fields. I wonder how someone so 'educated' can hold others in such contempt.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm superior in education level, I don't think any person is better than any other. This thread is about wether college is worth the cost. I've see a hundred studies saying it's


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## Annie (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> I'm superior in education level, I don't think any person is better than any other. This thread is about wether college is worth the cost. I've see a hundred studies saying it's



Not if Skull has 2 Bachelors and a Masters. You seem insecure, throwing your degrees around. Now if the discussion were on expertise, that would matter, but it's not.

Studies certainly do show what they claim, then again how long ago was that? How many agreeing with your position have yet to look at what today's 18 year olds are facing, job wise or cost wise? 

Many of us with degrees today went into college, heck even graduated without a clue to what we wanted to do? How many of us have multiple degrees because the first one or couple, weren't what we wanted or needed for the long haul? Seems to me that many of todays kids, might be better off working and deciding whether or not they want to spend the money and on what.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> I'm tapping out fast on an iPhone. I could give too shits about spelling and grammar. Those who can't attack your facts attack your spelling or personality. Those that go to college on average make way more than those that don't. Janitor



Lack of attention to detail is the sign of a poor attitude.

And you have yet to offer any facts about anything.

You stick to name calling and personal attacks.  So here are a few facts.

You aren't smart enough to run a successful business so you denigrate those that are.

You spend your life working for someone else, yet you think you are superior.

You are slovenly in your use of language which indicates that you are most likely poor at many other skills.

FYI the correct phrase is I couldn't give two shits about whatever.  You phrasing actually states the opposite.

Why don't you go back to school?


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> I'm superior in education level, I don't think any person is better than any other. This thread is about wether college is worth the cost. I've see a hundred studies saying it's



I showed you how investing tuition rather than going to school results in the exact same or better monetary position at age 65.  So how can college be worth more than not going when at best it is equal monetarily?

And didn't you mention before that a particular activity was beneath you?  Seems to me you do believe you are better than other people.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 12, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > I'm superior in education level, I don't think any person is better than any other. This thread is about wether college is worth the cost. I've see a hundred studies saying it's
> ...



Some degree of job satisfaction has to play into your equation.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

Mr Clean said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > topspin said:
> ...



I disagree.  The argument was that college gives you X amount more income than not going.  That has nothing to do with job satisfaction.


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## Care4all (Aug 12, 2010)

college was on average $1000 bucks a year, when I went to school....the yearly, near double digit increase in the cost of an upper education has put in to play, it may not give you a return on investment as it once did.

I only completed 2 years, before I got married and had to quit because we could not afford it....BUT, I worked my tail off and in just 5-10 years, I made nearly DOUBLE of what my sister made as a teacher with her masters degree....by my 15th year working I made over triple of what my sister made as a school teacher with a higher degree.....

It can be done with or without a 4 year degree, if you have the tenacity to make it happen....now that i am retired and not working, I am planning on completing my education....just because I enjoy school and learning.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

I think your an idiot skull. Maybe your paretns are rich, but I can tell you for fact that it's extreemly rare if not unprecedented for a kid to have 60 to 100,000 to invest instead of going to school. 
 Show me a study, ccause I see them all the time and they all say career earnings are way more. Don't name call if you don't want it coming back.


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## KissMy (Aug 12, 2010)

> A survey of last year's college graduates revealed that 80 percent moved back home after graduating, up a good bit from 63 percent in 2006, the Baltimore Sun reports. The same CollegeGrad.com survey of 2,000 young adults also showed that seven in 10 graduates said they would live at home until they got a job.With the unemployment rate at 14.7 percent for people aged 20 to 24--double what it was in 2007--that could be awhile. Add in a record student-loan debt for undergraduates--$22,700, according to the College Board--and any credit card debt a student is carrying, and it could be even longer.
> 
> How to make it work when college grads return home to live.



Contrast this with a recent Pew Research survey found that only one out of five grown children (aged 18-34) now lives with his or her parents. So, far more college graduates are living with their parents than their non-graduating peers.


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > I'm superior in education level, I don't think any person is better than any other. This thread is about wether college is worth the cost. I've see a hundred studies saying it's
> ...



 I'm sorry you fail to see that as ludicrous. Example have you ever known someone to do that?


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

Unemploykment for 4 years or better of college is 5%. Nuff said


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

topspin said:


> I think your an idiot skull. Maybe your paretns are rich, but I can tell you for fact that it's extreemly rare if not unprecedented for a kid to have 60 to 100,000 to invest instead of going to school.
> Show me a study, ccause I see them all the time and they all say career earnings are way more. Don't name call if you don't want it coming back.



My parent's weren't rich.

My Dad died when I was 2 and my mother never earned more than 30K a year.

When I was 18 I had over 40K saved for college.  I worked since i was 14.  I lied about my age to get a job in a supermarket. When I turned 16 I was working almost 40 hours a week and 60 hours a week or more in the summer and I saved it all.  I started taking college courses at night when I was a junior so I was three semesters ahead of my fellow high school students upon graduation. And I did all that while keeping an A average.

So don't tell me it can't be done.  Because it obviously can be done if you would just do it and stop your whining about how it can't be done.


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## Annie (Aug 12, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > I think your an idiot skull. Maybe your paretns are rich, but I can tell you for fact that it's extreemly rare if not unprecedented for a kid to have 60 to 100,000 to invest instead of going to school.
> ...



I don't know many kids that could do that, but know plenty that have been able to work and get scholarship to pay for college.


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2010)

Annie said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > topspin said:
> ...



Anyone can do it, not many will do it.

Shouldn't we be expecting drive and ambition rather than discouraging it?


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## topspin (Aug 12, 2010)

The average retirees 401k is only about 100,000. Ok skull I don't doubt you at all. You extrodinarilly motivated and thrifty. My situation on up bring is muck like yours. Except I'm lazy in comparison. I would recommend business school to my kid even if the wanted to work for themselves. Like I said I've seen plenty studies where college nets one way more vs non. sure bill gates didn't, having an exception doesn't change the rule.


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## Samson (Aug 12, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > I'm superior in education level, I don't think any person is better than any other. This thread is about wether or not college is worth the cost. I've seen a hundred studies saying it's worth the cost.
> ...



Niether of you geniuses caught the mis-spelled "WHETHER" and the poor wording of the sentence that omitted "OR NOT" or the fragmented sentence: "I've see a hundred studies saying it's;" or the brutal mis-conjugation of the verb "to see?"

Jaysus where the hell did you guys go to school?

I'm running out of red ink here!!!


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## topspin (Aug 13, 2010)

Elton John called, he thinks correcting 50 year old's spelling and grammar is gay'r than fanny packs.

 Samson, you are Gay and not in a HOMO way


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 13, 2010)

topspin said:


> Elton John called, he thinks correcting 50 year old's spelling and grammar is gay'r than fanny packs.
> 
> Samson, you are Gay and not in a HOMO way



Everything counts, including spelling.

I had a physics prof that deducted points for spelling. Everyone whined about it except those of us that took our education seriously, that is.


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## topspin (Aug 13, 2010)

Actually that's what my boss say's too. Here's a good laugh for you guy's at my expense. I placed out of freshman english in college.

 Skull all bullshit aside, I don't doubt what people say. You are one impressive and motivated hard working individual.


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## editec (Aug 13, 2010)

> According to the College Boards Trends in Student Aid study, 10 percent of people who graduated in 2007-8 with student loans had borrowed $40,000 or more. *The median debt for bachelors degree* recipients who borrowed while attending private, nonprofit colleges was *$22,380. *
> 
> The Project on Student Debt, a research and advocacy organization in Oakland, Calif., used federal data to estimate that 206,000 *people graduated* from college (including many from for-profit universities)* with more than $40,000 in student loan debt* in that same period. Thats *a ninefold increase over the number of people in 1996, using 2008 dollars*


 
Difficult to generalize about whether a college degree is worth taking on debt.

Most importantly, it depends on what field of study one undertakes.

Right now, degrees in hard sciences and engineering and advanced math and medical fields are probably the best college investments.

And then too there's the whole issue of what the employment market will be looking for during your working lifetime, too.

A degree in liberal arts is risky as hell because nowadays merely having a college degree isn't necessarily going to get you into a managment track at the sort of places where having humanities training is valuable.

But I definitely DO THINK the educational debt bubble is bursting right now.

Higher education costs are one of the few things that have actually risen faster than the cost of health care in our lifetimes.

The cost doesn't justified given the current  labor market.


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## Samson (Aug 13, 2010)

editec said:


> *Right now*, degrees in hard sciences and engineering and advanced math and medical fields are probably the best college investments.
> 
> And then too there's the whole issue of what the employment market will be looking for during your working lifetime, too.
> 
> A degree in liberal arts is risky as hell because *nowadays* merely having a college degree isn't necessarily going to get you into a managment track at the sort of places where having humanities training is valuable.



I agree,,,,however, I wonder about the qualifiers: "right now" and "nowadays."

What you've said about the relative worth of different degree plans hasn't changed for the past 40 years (at least). Regardless, there are still graduates that are amazed to find that their degree in Religious and Women's studies cannot pay for their $100K student loan debt?

Are you implying that you see a reason that BA's in Renaisance French Poetry, Aztec Interiour Decorating, or  Underwaterbasketweaving, might see a resurgance in demand?


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## Barb (Aug 13, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > Elton John called, he thinks correcting 50 year old's spelling and grammar is gay'r than fanny packs.
> ...



I wrote hateful Haiku's for my English major professors.  God, but they were a pain in the ass. 
Some of my most difficult teachers helped me the most though, and through all the picayune point reductions, they helped me with the discipline I needed to improve not only my expression of my thoughts, but my thinking.


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## Cecilie1200 (Aug 14, 2010)

topspin said:


> Elton John called, he thinks correcting 50 year old's spelling and grammar is gay'r than fanny packs.
> 
> Samson, you are Gay and not in a HOMO way



Yeah, because EVERYONE is concerned about impressing a 50-year-old who NEEDS his spelling corrected.  You just keep telling yourself that.


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## Cecilie1200 (Aug 14, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > Elton John called, he thinks correcting 50 year old's spelling and grammar is gay'r than fanny packs.
> ...



Do people really believe that grammar and spelling don't count in the professional world?  Do they really think that physicists present papers for publication full of mistakes?


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## Samson (Aug 14, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > topspin said:
> ...



No, they have undergrads write the papers that they present.


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