# Armed civilians shoot more criminals than police in 2020.....good for them.



## 2aguy (Sep 30, 2021)

The new FBI crime report is out...still trying to find a readable copy, but the reporting on it shows that armed citizens with legal guns killed more criminals than the cops did in 2020.....

Good for them....

Rapes, robberies, stabbings, beatings, mass public shootings and murders, stopped by good people with guns..

Lives saved with guns.....

*The FBI Uniform Crime Report for 2020 indicates that armed private citizens killed more criminals during the commission of a felony last year than were killed by police, and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms says this data clearly underscores the continuing need for American gun ownership.

“We looked at Tables 14 and 15 in the FBI’s new report that apply to justifiable homicides by law enforcement and private citizens, respectively,” noted CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb. “Last year, according to the data, armed citizens killed 343 criminals during the commission of a felony while police fatally shot 298 felons.*









						FBI Data Shows Armed Citizens Killed More Armed Criminals Than Police in 2020 - The Truth About Guns
					

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ From the CCRKBA . . . The FBI Uniform Crime Report for 2020 indicates that armed private citizens killed more criminals during the commission of a felony last year than were killed by police, and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms says this...




					www.thetruthaboutguns.com


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## candycorn (Sep 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The new FBI crime report is out...still trying to find a readable copy, but the reporting on it shows that armed citizens with legal guns killed more criminals than the cops did in 2020.....
> 
> Good for them....
> 
> ...


343... You once claimed there was something like 1.1 MILLION of these per year.

What happened?


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## 2aguy (Sep 30, 2021)

candycorn said:


> 343... You once claimed there was something like 1.1 MILLION of these per year.
> 
> What happened?



No, dipshit, there are 1.1 million defensive uses of guns by armed civillians according to the Centers for Disease Control,  1.5 million according to the Department of Justice and 1.67 million according to the 2020 Firearms survey.  Only 343 violent criminals were too stupid to realize that attacking a
Victim with a gun was a really stupid idea.  The rest ran away, surrenered and were held for the policeor were shot and just wounded.

What about that is so hard for you morons to understand?

Normal people do not use their legal guns unless they are forces to use them by violent rapists, robbers and killers.  Only in your and joes fantasies do normal people shoot criminals for fun.


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## candycorn (Sep 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> No, dipshit, there are 1.1 million defensive uses of guns by armed civillians according to the Centers for Disease Control,  1.5 million according to the Department of Justice and 1.67 million according to the 2020 Firearms survey.  Only 343 violent criminals were too stupid to realize that attacking a
> Victim with a gun was a really stupid idea.  The rest ran away, surrenered and were held for the policeor were shot and just wounded.


343 deaths out of a supposed 1.67 million gun uses.  You gun nuts are some pretty bad shots.  



2aguy said:


> What about that is so hard for you morons to understand?


Your stats come straight out of fantasy land.


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## Mac-7 (Sep 30, 2021)

candycorn said:


> 343 deaths out of a supposed 1.67 million gun uses. You gun nuts are some pretty bad shots.


In many cases just having the gun deters the crime


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## candycorn (Sep 30, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> In many cases just having the gun deters the crime



LOL...

In many cases having a fence deters crime too.  

Gee, my fence stopped more crime than your gun in that case.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> “We looked at Tables 14 and 15 in the FBI’s new report that apply to justifiable homicides by law enforcement and private citizens, respectively,” noted CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb. “Last year, according to the data, armed citizens killed 343 criminals during the commission of a felony while police fatally shot 298 felons.



Really? 









						People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2022 | Statista
					

Sadly, the trend of fatal police shootings in the United States seems to only be increasing, with a total 856 civilians having been shot, 75 of whom were Black, as of October 31, 2022.




					www.statista.com
				




 In 2020, there were 1,021 fatal police shootings, and in 2019 there were 999 fatal shootings. 

So if you really are going to claim that of the 1021 people killed by police, only 298 were felons HOLY SHIT!!!  

Of course, 20,000 Americans died of gun violence last year...   and you think this is fine and normal.


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## Baron Von Murderpaws (Sep 30, 2021)

Obviously, the Dems, Libs, and Snowflakes here don't give a damned about anybody, including themselves........since they think guns are bad.  

They need to do a study on what percentage of Dems and their families are raped, stabbed, assaulted, and murdered compared to people that own guns for protection and use them.


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## Mac-7 (Sep 30, 2021)

candycorn said:


> In many cases having a fence deters crime too.


I’m not pushing to ban fences

But if you are I would not be surprised


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## candycorn (Sep 30, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> I’m not pushing to ban fences
> 
> But if you are I would not be surprised


And that has nothing to do with the "guns not used are still being used" nonsense when it comes to statistics.  PS: I'm not trying to ban guns moron.


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## candycorn (Sep 30, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All true.  

He also said that there are 1.67M defensive gun uses per year...but only 343 fatalities.  Meaning that 1.64M times, some gun nut somewhere shot and missed.


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## Mac-7 (Sep 30, 2021)

candycorn said:


> And that has nothing to do with the "guns not used are still being used" nonsense when it comes to statistics. PS: I'm not trying to ban guns moron.


Liberals in general are even if you claim to be the rare exception


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## Muhammed (Sep 30, 2021)

candycorn said:


> All true.
> 
> He also said that there are 1.67M defensive gun uses per year...but only 343 fatalities.  Meaning that 1.64M times, some gun nut somewhere shot and missed.


No that's not what it means, you fucking moron.


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## 2aguy (Sep 30, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not fune, not normal bur the slave rapist party that you vote for decided to make war on the police in 2015, and decided to keep releasing the known violent gun offenders doing all of the shooting.   The democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians keep releasing the very people who have been arrested over and over again for gun felonies….no matter how often they are caught with illegal guns and even when they use those guns for crime and murder.

You vote for the political party doing that, not me.


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## 2aguy (Sep 30, 2021)

candycorn said:


> 343 deaths out of a supposed 1.67 million gun uses.  You gun nuts are some pretty bad shots.
> 
> 
> Your stats come straight out of fantasy land.



Those stats came from 3 different studies, one from the Centers for Disease Control, one from the Departmemt of Justice and one from the 2020 Firearm survey….and there are another 15 studies that show high gun self defense as well.

And what part do you not understand?  Most criminals run away from victims with funs and fo and find unarmed victims instead.  The other criminals surrender, or get shot and simply wounded.  That you play the dishonest games that you do just confirms that you cant be trusted with any power.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 30, 2021)

Dead miscreant = good miscreant


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

Toffeenut Baconsmuggler said:


> Obviously, the Dems, Libs, and Snowflakes here don't give a damned about anybody, including themselves........since they think guns are bad.
> 
> They need to do a study on what percentage of Dems and their families are raped, stabbed, assaulted, and murdered compared to people that own guns for protection and use them.



We already know the damage guns do.

43,000 deaths
70,000 injuries
400,000 crimes committed with guns
217 BILLION in economic losses.  

Compared to, if you believe the OP, 343 times a civilian with a gun shot a bad guy and killed him. 

The problem is that people like the tiny-dicked OP want you to really believe there are hundreds of thousands or millions of times that bad guys are shown guns and flee... 

It's just laughable.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> All true.
> 
> He also said that there are 1.67M defensive gun uses per year...but only 343 fatalities. Meaning that 1.64M times, some gun nut somewhere shot and missed.



I think that number would be 1,669,657 times they missed...  and I've pointed out the ludicrousness of that at all, especially given how much the gun fetishists wank off over the thought of killing a bad guy or just some darkie who was in the wrong neighborhood.


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> We already know the damage guns do.
> 
> 43,000 deaths
> 70,000 injuries
> ...




Joe  lies...it is what he does......he doesn't want to point out that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides....that ruins his argument.  He doesn't want to point out that in 2019 there were 10,258 actual gun murders...but the victims of those murders, 70-80% were criminals, engaged in the lifestyle of criminals....



That means using the 70% rate, 3,077 gun murders of innocent people in the U.S......a country of over 330,000,000 people........car accidents in 2018 from the CDC were 39,404.....



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Of the 3,077 innocent gun murder victims in a country of over 330 million people, joe doesn't want you to know that the majority of those victims were the friends and family of criminals...caught in the crossfire of their criminal activity and revenge shootings...



That ruins his argument...........



It also ruins his argument when you look at the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 27 years,  the gun crime rate went down 75%.....the gun murder rate went down 49%, and the gun crime rate went down 72%.....this means that guns do not increase gun crime, or gun murder.....which ruins his entire argument......



Also, Americans with legal guns save lives....lots of lives....according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, armed, law abiding Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders.......if you don't like their research, you can look at the Department of Justice research that shows the number of defensive gun uses at 1.5 million times a year...



1.1 million times a year guns are used to save lives from rape, robbery and murder......



That far outnumbers the innocent lives lost to criminals with illegal guns...guns they already can't buy, own or carry, but get anyway because they are criminals...



Joe  lies...it is what he does......he doesn't want to point out that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides....that ruins his argument.  He doesn't want to point out that in 2019 there were 10,258 actual gun murders...but the victims of those murders, 70-80% were criminals, engaged in the lifestyle of criminals....



That means using the 70% rate, 3,077 gun murders of innocent people in the U.S......a country of over 330,000,000 people........car accidents in 2018 from the CDC were 39,404.....



Broker Version 9.4 (Build 1366)



Of the 3,077 innocent gun murder victims in a country of over 330 million people, joe doesn't want you to know that the majority of those victims were the friends and family of criminals...caught in the crossfire of their criminal activity and revenge shootings...



That ruins his argument...........



It also ruins his argument when you look at the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 27 years,  the gun crime rate went down 75%.....the gun murder rate went down 49%, and the gun crime rate went down 72%.....this means that guns do not increase gun crime, or gun murder.....which ruins his entire argument......



Also, Americans with legal guns save lives....lots of lives....according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, armed, law abiding Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders.......if you don't like their research, you can look at the Department of Justice research that shows the number of defensive gun uses at 1.5 million times a year...



1.1 million times a year guns are used to save lives from rape, robbery and murder......



That far outnumbers the innocent lives lost to criminals with illegal guns...guns they already can't buy, own or carry, but get anyway because they are criminals...

More research on how often Americans use their legal guns to stop criminals...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Those stats came from 3 different studies, one from the Centers for Disease Control, one from the Departmemt of Justice and one from the 2020 Firearm survey….and there are another 15 studies that show high gun self defense as well.
> 
> And what part do you not understand? Most criminals run away from victims with funs and fo and find unarmed victims instead. The other criminals surrender, or get shot and simply wounded. That you play the dishonest games that you do just confirms that you cant be trusted with any power.



Well, if they just run away and commit a crime somewhere else, then crime wasn't actually prevented, was it? Someone WAS getting robbed that night. It's not like the criminal rethought his vocation merely because some bubba redneck waived a gun at him.  



2aguy said:


> not fune, not normal bur the slave rapist party that you vote for decided to make war on the police in 2015, and decided to keep releasing the known violent gun offenders doing all of the shooting. The democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians keep releasing the very people who have been arrested over and over again for gun felonies….no matter how often they are caught with illegal guns and even when they use those guns for crime and murder.
> 
> You vote for the political party doing that, not me.



Uh, guy, if guns and jails got us to No Crime, we'd be there already.  We lock up 2 million people.  There are 300 million guns out there.  

Instead, what we have is more crime than any other in industrialized nation, cops who have to drive around like they are patrolling Fallujah, and we are wondering why things are getting worse


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> We already know the damage guns do.
> 
> 43,000 deaths
> 70,000 injuries
> ...




The lives saved...something joe doesn't want to talk about...

600 million guns in private hands......over 19.4 million Americans can carry guns legally in public for self defense.........



American use those legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, stabbings, beatings, robberies, and murders, as well as also stopping mass public shootings when they are allowed to have their legal guns with them...



Gun deaths...the truth....



2019...



Gun murder...10,235



Gun accidents...486



Of the gun murder deaths....over 70-80% of the victims are not regular Americans....they are criminals...murdered by other criminals in primarily democrat party controlled cities....where the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians have released them over and over again no matter how many times they are arrested for felony, illegal gun possession and violent crimes with guns...that's on you and your political party...not normal gun owners.





Gun suicides... 23,491...





Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop brutal rapes, robberies, beatings, knifings, murders......according to the Centers for Disease Control, and 1.5 million times according to the Department of Justice.



Lives saved....based on research?  By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


* that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—*



Money saved from people not being beaten, raped, murdered, robbed?.......





*So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.*

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.


Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Well, if they just run away and commit a crime somewhere else, then crime wasn't actually prevented, was it? Someone WAS getting robbed that night. It's not like the criminal rethought his vocation merely because some bubba redneck waived a gun at him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We have increasing gun crime because the democrat party decided to go to war against the police.....and the democrat party keeps releasing violent gun offenders over and over again, no matter how often they are arrested for illegal gun possession, gun shooting, and gun murder....

Your political party, the democrat party, created by slave rapists, is the party causing the gun crime in the cities they control....their judges, prosecutors and politicians keep letting violent criminals out of jail and prison.....


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

It's always kind if funny to watch DickTiny get stuck. He's like an octopus who puts out an ink cloud... 


Okay, we'll just address this one. 



2aguy said:


> Joe lies...it is what he does......he doesn't want to point out that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides....that ruins his argument. He doesn't want to point out that in 2019 there were 10,258 actual gun murders...but the victims of those murders, 70-80% were criminals, engaged in the lifestyle of criminals....



Uh, sorry, man, suicides are still deaths, and they will still have people who will miss them. 

The murder rate with guns in 2019 was 14,500... and it's going to top 20K in 2020, because when you put scared anxious people in a home and lock them up with other scared anxious people, and someone has easy access to a gun, bad stuff is going to happen.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The lives saved...something joe doesn't want to talk about...



I didn't talk about them, they don't happen because it just isn't CREDIBLE.  You'd have to believe that gun nuts don't fire 99.999% of the time when that happy day comes when they can finally shoot them a darkie.... um, criminal. Yeah, that's it. A criminal.


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> It's always kind if funny to watch DickTiny get stuck. He's like an octopus who puts out an ink cloud...
> 
> 
> Okay, we'll just address this one.
> ...



Japan, and 20 other countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do...guns are not the issue.....

And before you try it again....by lying and saying we have a higher suicide rate than Japan.....we had a higher suicide rate in one year, 2019......the rest of the time Japan has a far higher suicide rate, and they only let Yakuza and cops have guns there.....

The murder rate went up in 2020 because the democrat party attacked the police at the height of the blm/antifa terror attacks on our cities....blm/antifa are the terrorist wings of the democrat party that burned and looted our cities and murdered over 40 Americans...during these attacks, the democrat party attacked the police and freed the blm/antifa thugs from jail......

The police responded logically and stopped pro-active policing...allowing thugs to murder each other at will...

Along with this, the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians continued to release violent, repeat gun offenders from jail and prison, on bail, no cash bail, and home monitoring....no matter how many times they used a gun in a crime.....one would have to think from this that the democrats want them to shoot people.......since they keep letting them out until they finally shoot enough people to where it is too obvious to release them again.......

the democrat party, the party you vote for joe, the party created by slave rapists.....is the cause of gun murder in the U.S........


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Japan, and 20 other countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do...guns are not the issue.....
> 
> And before you try it again....by lying and saying we have a higher suicide rate than Japan.....we had a higher suicide rate in one year, 2019......the rest of the time Japan has a far higher suicide rate, and they only let Yakuza and cops have guns there.....



Japan has a history of sucide as part of their culture, and they STILL Managed to off less of themselves than we did. 



2aguy said:


> The murder rate went up in 2020 because the democrat party attacked the police at the height of the blm/antifa terror attacks on our cities....blm/antifa are the terrorist wings of the democrat party that burned and looted our cities and murdered over 40 Americans...during these attacks, the democrat party attacked the police and freed the blm/antifa thugs from jail......



Okay, so 40 people were killed in riots over the summer... although some ofthose were protesters being killed by cops or right wing nutbags, but let's go with your 40 number.  

How do you account for the other 21,000 murders that happened last year?   You lock people in their homes for months, you fuck with their finances and lo and behold, they are going to get a little antsy.


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Japan has a history of sucide as part of their culture, and they STILL Managed to off less of themselves than we did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



liar.  2019 is the only year Japan had a lower suicide rate than us.  

Do you think playing stupid helps you?  They have almost zero access to guns and commit suicide at higher rates than we do so, moron, that proves guns are not an issue in suicide.


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Japan has a history of sucide as part of their culture, and they STILL Managed to off less of themselves than we did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Easy. The democrat party and their relentless attacks against the police and the democrat party releasing the actual gun criminals from jail and prison so they cqn keep shooting people.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> liar. 2019 is the only year Japan had a lower suicide rate than us.
> 
> Do you think playing stupid helps you? They have almost zero access to guns and commit suicide at higher rates than we do so, moron, that proves guns are not an issue in suicide.



The point is, their suicide rate was lower, not higher. 

They have a society where suicide has been ingrained as being honorable for centuries....  and they still managed to kill themselves at a lower rate than we did.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Easy. The democrat party and their relentless attacks against the police and the democrat party releasing the actual gun criminals from jail and prison so they cqn keep shooting people.



Right, and easy access to guns had nothing to do with it, which is why we have 21,000 murders and most other industrialized countries have less than 1000.


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> 343 deaths out of a supposed 1.67 million gun uses.  You gun nuts are some pretty bad shots.
> 
> 
> Your stats come straight out of fantasy land.


using your claim then why less then 300 by the police? I mean they encounter MILLIONS of violent and non violent crimes a year?


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## candycorn (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> I think that number would be 1,669,657 times they missed...  and I've pointed out the ludicrousness of that at all, especially given how much the gun fetishists wank off over the thought of killing a bad guy or just some darkie who was in the wrong neighborhood.


I agree.  Yet amazingly I know of nobody who has had to do this…neither does 2aguy by the way.  Of the people I know, none of them know of anyone who has been in a shootout either.  The papers are not filled with accounts of the alleged 70 million gun defenses that have taken place during my lifetime…few of us are serenaded with the sounds of constant (or even random) gunfire outside of our homes.


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## candycorn (Oct 1, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> using your claim then why less then 300 by the police? I mean they encounter MILLIONS of violent and non violent crimes a year?


Not my claim.  I get the stats from the OP.  He’ll explain how a gun doesn’t have to be used to count as a gun usage.

You’re in the cult so the nonsense will make perfect sense to you.


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Not my claim.  I get the stats from the OP.  He’ll explain how a gun doesn’t have to be used to count as a gun usage.
> 
> You’re in the cult so the nonsense will make perfect sense to you.


Your claim is that there would have to be 1.6 million deaths to account for the defensive use of firearms while ignoring the millions of interactions by cops that don't result in shootings either.


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## candycorn (Oct 1, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Your claim is that there would have to be 1.6 million deaths


In no way did I ever make such a claim.


RetiredGySgt said:


> to account for the defensive use of firearms while ignoring the millions of interactions by cops that don't result in shootings either.


Never mentioned the cops in this thread....ever.

What I did say...for those interested in accuracy...is that the OP consistently trots out a laughable "1.67 million defensive gun uses per year.".  Of which, again according to the OP, of that 1.67 million that allegedly took place last year, 343 resulted in the death of the "perpetrator".  I put that in quotes because without a trial, we don't know if these people were actually doing what the killer said they were doing when they were shot and killed.  

Anyway...according to the OP's statistics, of the 1,670,000 alleged defensive gun uses, 343 fatalities. 

Meaning that 1,669,657 times a gun was used and no death occurred.  That means there are either a lot of bad shots out there or the OP is full of shit (or both).


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> The point is, their suicide rate was lower, not higher.
> 
> They have a society where suicide has been ingrained as being honorable for centuries....  and they still managed to kill themselves at a lower rate than we did.



Every single year except for 2019 was higher you troll.

What part of their culture not being relevant is so hard for your brain to process?  They have almost zero access to guns….. and commit suicide at higher rates than we do……as do about 20 other countries with extreme fun control


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> In no way did I ever make such a claim.
> 
> Never mentioned the cops in this thread....ever.
> 
> ...



Moron 
, the 1.67 million is brand new research released last week by the Firearm Survey for 2020.   I usually post 1.2 million defensive gun uses from research done by the Centers for Disease Control.

Then, You have 16 other studies by both government and private research groups.

You pull yours out of your ass, I have researxh going back to the 90s to 2020.


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Not my claim.  I get the stats from the OP.  He’ll explain how a gun doesn’t have to be used to count as a gun usage.
> 
> You’re in the cult so the nonsense will make perfect sense to you.



Shitbird….

Robber or rapist attacks the victim…. Victim draws their gun….. criminal runs away…… or surrenders….. or is shot and simply wounded….

That, you dumb ass is a defensive gun use.   You raging moron…..


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## 2aguy (Oct 1, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Right, and easy access to guns had nothing to do with it, which is why we have 21,000 murders and most other industrialized countries have less than 1000.



Nope……Democrats letting violent gun offenders out of jail and prison and then attacking the police increased the gun murder rate. 

How do I know? 

Because according to PEW, the research group, over the 27 years from the 90s to 2020, as more people bought guns and more people carried guns, the gun murder rate went down 49%  and the gun crime rate went down 75%.

27 years of increasing gun ownership and increasing concealed carry of guns in public by law abiding gun owners…

That shows that access to lots of guns does not cause gun crime or gun murder…you idiot.

2015 was the  beginning of the democrat party attack on the police and the ramped up democrat party policy of releasing violentt gun criminals no matter how many gun crimes they commit.


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## Otis Mayfield (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The new FBI crime report is out...still trying to find a readable copy, but the reporting on it shows that armed citizens with legal guns killed more criminals than the cops did in 2020.....
> 
> Good for them....
> 
> ...













						FBI Releases 2020 Crime Statistics | Federal Bureau of Investigation
					

For the first time in four years, the estimated number of violent crimes in the nation increased when compared with the previous year’s statistics.




					www.fbi.gov
				




Your source doesn't say anything about the number of citizens killing crooks.


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## candycorn (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron
> , the 1.67 million is brand new research released last week by the Firearm Survey for 2020.   I usually post 1.2 million defensive gun uses from research done by the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> Then, You have 16 other studies by both government and private research groups.
> ...


LOL..

Okay the 70M in my lifetime who supposedly had shootouts are only 55M or so.

Yet nobody is reporting these millions of gunfights....strange.


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## candycorn (Oct 1, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Shitbird….
> 
> Robber or rapist attacks the victim…. Victim draws their gun….. criminal runs away…… or surrenders….. or is shot and simply wounded….
> 
> That, you dumb ass is a defensive gun use.   You raging moron…..



Gee, if that is what it takes to be a "use"....the wall around my condo stopped 50M burglaries then....


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> In no way did I ever make such a claim.
> 
> Never mentioned the cops in this thread....ever.
> 
> ...


Again you just claimed only a death proves a fire arm use.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Yet nobody is reporting these millions of gunfights....strange.


How is it you do not understand the use of a gun in self-defense does not in any way necessarily include the discharge of said gun?


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## Otis Mayfield (Oct 1, 2021)

Just showing someone your gun to scare them off is a good way to get killed.

She has her finger on the trigger. If someone in the crowd would've shot her dead, it would've been self defense.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 1, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Just showing someone your gun to scare them off is a good way to get killed.


And yet, it apparently works - and often.


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## candycorn (Oct 1, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> How is it you do not understand the use of a gun in self-defense does not in any way necessarily include the discharge of said gun?



So the wall around my condo is preventing crime right now?


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## candycorn (Oct 1, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Again you just claimed only a death proves a fire arm use.


Again, I didn't remotely say that...

What I did say was It is highly unlikely that 1.6+ Million times there was an attempted crime, a shoot out, and nobody reported it, it didn't make the news, etc.... 

But since you're hung up on this....  take the 343 and divide it by the laughable figure that keeps getting brought up...  1.67 million.  Here is the percentage of times a gunfight resulted in an alleged perpetrator's death...





And this doesn't count the times the gunfight resulted in the death of the person supposedly being attacked originally....  Gun nuts need to do better.... you're not stopping many "bad guys with a gun"....  But then again you guys aren't really the good guys as we saw on 1/6.


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 1, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Again, I didn't remotely say that...
> 
> What I did say was It is highly unlikely that 1.6+ Million times there was an attempted crime, a shoot out, and nobody reported it, it didn't make the news, etc....
> 
> ...


What part of no shoots fired are required dont you understand? you keep claim that shooting is required to prevent a crime tell us why cops dont have millions of shoot outs to prevent crime.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> I agree. Yet amazingly I know of nobody who has had to do this…neither does @2aguy by the way. Of the people I know, none of them know of anyone who has been in a shootout either. The papers are not filled with accounts of the alleged 70 million gun defenses that have taken place during my lifetime…few of us are serenaded with the sounds of constant (or even random) gunfire outside of our homes.



Quite right.  

Although 2AGuy would count any time a scared little white dude (such as himself) pointed a gun at a scary black person as a "Defensive Gun Use".


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 2, 2021)

Actually RETARD the Government set the requirement for what is a defensive use and they counted the numbers.


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## candycorn (Oct 2, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Quite right.
> 
> Although 2AGuy would count any time a scared little white dude (such as himself) pointed a gun at a scary black person as a "Defensive Gun Use".


I’m pretty sure that the laughable  1.67M gun uses statistic do not even involve drawing a weapon.

Few if any reading this have pulled a weapon in someone…Few if any know of anyone who has had to do it.  

No sane person thinks there are that many defensive gun “uses”.  Even the gun nuts have begun to broaden the definition of “use” to include not using it.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> So the wall around my condo is preventing crime right now?


You didn't answer my question
How is it you do not understand the use of a gun in self-defense does not in any way necessarily include the discharge of said gun?        
Clearly, since you incorrectly believe the defensive useof a gun must involve a shoot-out, you incorrectly believe a person can only defend himself with gun by disharging it -- I just want to know why.
Well?


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> What I did say was It is highly unlikely that 1.6+ Million times there was an attempted crime, a shoot out, and nobody reported it,


You proceed form the false assumption  that the defensive use of a gun necessarily involves a shoot-out.
Why?


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> I’m pretty sure that the laughable  1.67M gun uses statistic do not even involve drawing a weapon.


You have no idea whatsoever if this is true.


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## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Gee, if that is what it takes to be a "use"....the wall around my condo stopped 50M burglaries then....




Hey...dipshit....is this a defensive gun use?  You tell us.....

Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them

LANCASTER, Ohio - It happened along a walking path in Lancaster.

*Dinah Burns is licensed to carry a concealed gun, but she'd only recently started taking her weapon while walking her dog.

Based on what happened, it looks like she'll make a point of carrying from now on.

"I think if they'd gotten any closer, I probably would have fired,” said Burns.

It was Monday when Burns was on a footpath near Sanderson Elementary School.

"Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said 'You're coming with us'."

The men weren't deterred by Dinah's dog Gracie.

"I said, 'Well, what do you want?,' and as I was saying that I reached in to my pocket and slipped my gun out, slipped the safety off as I pulled it out. As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, 'I have this and I'm not afraid to use it.'"

The men took off and so far have eluded police. Dinah posted about the incident on Facebook to alert friends and neighbors, to criticism by some.

"Most of the males' opinion was, 'Why didn't you shoot them?'"

Easy to second-guess a decision made under pressure, based on her concealed carry training, and police agree.

"To get out of a situation, back out, get out of it as much as you can without having to discharge your firearm."

"I will say it's a good thing to go from a place of danger to a place of safety, however you get that done,” said Sgt. Matt Chambers, Lancaster Police.

"Very thankful that it turned out the way it did, and hope it doesn't happen again, but I will be prepared."*


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## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Gee, if that is what it takes to be a "use"....the wall around my condo stopped 50M burglaries then....




Hey....dipshit.....are these defensive gun uses....

CCW IN ACTION: Armed 22-Year-Old Woman Stops Three Men Attempting To Rob Her In Store Parking Lot – Concealed Nation

OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA — A concealed carrier successfully thwarted the efforts of three men to rob her late at night outside a Dollar Tree. According to police reports from the scene, the woman was exiting the Dollar Tree and heading to her car when she was approached by a man and asked to walk with him. When she refused, he point-blank told her he was going to rob her of her purse.

At this point, according to KOCO, she was presented by two other men backing up the first. She withdrew her concealed carry pistol from her purse and threatened to use it to protect herself. All three men quickly exited and fled the scene.
===========
Woman Scares off Assailant With Stick. Just Kidding, it was a gun.

Just before 7pm on Wednesday night, a 29 year-old woman had gathered up her dog and headed outside to… well, to let her dog do what dogs do.

Upon her first step outside her Minot, North Dakota home, she was hit solidly in the face with a blunt object, knocking her backward down the stairs and into her home.

Her assailant followed her into her home and started to approach her, but the woman had made it to a cabinet where she retrieved a handgun to protect herself and her home.

When confronted with the firearm, the violent intruder and would-be robber/rapist/murderer fled the scene.

The smart, independent, gun-owning woman did not require medical attention, most likely due to the fact that she was able to pull a weapon on her assailant to end the attack.
==============


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## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Gee, if that is what it takes to be a "use"....the wall around my condo stopped 50M burglaries then....




And these, dipshit.....no shots fired...criminals captured or run off by the gun owner...

Concealed Carrier Holds Burglar At Gunpoint With Her FNX .45

*CLEVELAND, TENNESSEE — A woman successfully subdued a would-be burglar outside her home using her FNX .45. The suspect, James Jeffrey Dunn, was allegedly trying to break in through her front door late at night. She got her handgun and confronted the burglar, according to WRCB. Once at the doorway, she yelled through the door for him to stay put and not move. Moments later, she confronted him head-on — handgun drawn and ready to go.

via WRCB

“I tried to order him to stay right where he was at and I pointed the gun at him and I came running off the porch and I came within 10 feet of him and he laid the bicycle down and he crumpled on top of the bicycle,” she says.

She held him at gunpoint until Cleveland Police arrived and arrested Dunn, 35, on charges of aggravated burglary, theft, and burglary of a motor vehicle. Police note that Dunn had an arrest sheet tallying over 40 charges — the most recent being only 6 hours prior to his attempted burglary of this concealed carrier.

“We went over this when we got my concealed carry permit, these types of scenarios. But I had already put that gun up and ever taken it out since, you know?” she says. “Maybe to go the range once.”

When we talk about the new generation of concealed carriers, let’s take a good long look at the realities these people are facing: hardened, career criminals unafraid to bust through the door or do damage to private property and persons. It’s a good thing this woman had the proper training she needed and the right equipment.*
*======

Armed South Carolina Woman Chases Off Daytime Home Invader - The Truth About Guns

When Ms. Reeves ran across Ralph Goss slithering around inside her home yesterday in the middle of the afternoon, she drew her firearm. Staring down that barrel was enough to change Goss’s mind about whatever it was he had planned.

“I’m one of those people that can go from zero to a hundred in 2.5 seconds and I’m not a nice person normally, but as soon as I got on the phone with the sheriff’s department he was out of sight. The severity of it hit me, and I was in hysterics. I was crying, I was scared, I was very shaken.”

Oconee County deputies tracked Goss down within hours of Ms. Reeves’ call. And surprise! He already had several outstanding warrants for his arrest.*
*===============

I know you are dumb...really dumb.....and that you think you are clever by trying to say the only time a gun is "used" is when it is fired, which allows you to deny 18 different studies on the defensive use of guns by armed citizens...*

*It is that level of dumbness and dishonesty that reveals that giving in to morons like you would really be stupid...

We know who you are, we know what you want, we know what you will do to get what you want...and we will fight you every step of the way...*


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## candycorn (Oct 2, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> You didn't answer my question
> How is it you do not understand the use of a gun in self-defense does not in any way necessarily include the discharge of said gun?


Because it's not a "use" if you don't use it.  I have a hammer under my sink.  I haven't driven any nails into the wall today...hence I haven't used it.


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## candycorn (Oct 2, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Hey...dipshit....is this a defensive gun use?  You tell us.....
> 
> Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them


No.  That isn't a use.  Sorry.  And are you making the argument that the example given above is what is happening 1.66 Million times per year?  Really?


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## candycorn (Oct 2, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> You proceed form the false assumption  that the defensive use of a gun necessarily involves a shoot-out.
> Why?


That is what "using a gun" means....using a gun.  

You proceed from the false assumption that having something means you're using it.  I hav a Fitbit and a Hobart mixer....  Am I using them while typing this corrective message?


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## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> No.  That isn't a use.  Sorry.  And are you making the argument that the example given above is what is happening 1.66 Million times per year?  Really?




Thank you......that response demonstrates to rational people how insane you are....


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## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> That is what "using a gun" means....using a gun.
> 
> You proceed from the false assumption that having something means you're using it.  I hav a Fitbit and a Hobart mixer....  Am I using them while typing this corrective message?




Wow...the stupid is strong with this one....


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## candycorn (Oct 2, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Thank you......that response demonstrates to rational people how insane you are....


Yet you're the gun nut who thinks convicted murderers (who are white) should get no jail time, BLM/Antifa stormed the capitol and Trump won the election.  

I win.


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## candycorn (Oct 2, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Wow...the stupid is strong with this one....


Yes; you're quite stupid if you think there are millions of defensive gun uses in a year


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## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Yet you're the gun nut who thinks convicted murderers (who are white) should get no jail time, BLM/Antifa stormed the capitol and Trump won the election.
> 
> I win.



What was her motive…..you still disnt tell us the reason…which shows the officer was railroaded on the wrong charge


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## candycorn (Oct 2, 2021)

2aguy said:


> What was her motive…..you still disnt tell us the reason…which shows the officer was railroaded on the wrong charge



What was the motive of the thousands in prison who committed murder?    She was convicted and you think she should get zero jail time.... those are the facts and they are not in dispute.


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## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> What was the motive of the thousands in prison who committed murder?    She was convicted and you think she should get zero jail time.... those are the facts and they are not in dispute.



Most of them are members of gangs you idiot.   She is one case so her motive should be easy for you…..what was it?

She says it was an accident… where was the motive that made it murder you freaking moron.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> Because it's not a "use" if you don't use it.


How is it you do not understand the use of a gun in self-defense does not in any way necessarily include the discharge of said gun?
Clearly, since you incorrectly believe the defensive use of a gun must involve a shoot-out, you incorrectly believe a person can only defend himself with gun by disharging it -- I just want to know why.
Well?


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> That is what "using a gun" means....using a gun.


Ah.  You --choose-- to be ignorant.
What a surprise.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> That is what "using a gun" means....using a gun.


A guy pulls a gun on you and demands your money.
You comply.
He leaves you unharmed
Did he use a gun to rob you?


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## JoeB131 (Oct 2, 2021)

candycorn said:


> I’m pretty sure that the laughable 1.67M gun uses statistic do not even involve drawing a weapon.
> 
> Few if any reading this have pulled a weapon in someone…Few if any know of anyone who has had to do it.
> 
> No sane person thinks there are that many defensive gun “uses”. Even the gun nuts have begun to broaden the definition of “use” to include not using it.





candycorn said:


> No. That isn't a use. Sorry. And are you making the argument that the example given above is what is happening 1.66 Million times per year? Really?



Sadly, you hit the m other lode, he's spooging the thread with his gun porn again.


----------

