# Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians



## Coyote (Sep 16, 2018)

I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.



Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

_With prospects for diplomacy dim, with the need to change reality on the ground to restore a sense of possibility, and with past lessons showing that assistance should be used to promote development and reduce Israeli-Palestinian friction, *we propose three recommendations *for Congress to reprogram the $200 million fiscal 2018 monies to create a more stable economic, political and security environment in Gaza and the West Bank:

*First, use that assistance to take water off the negotiating table*. In the not too distant past, water negotiations were zero-sum, given the limited supply of water between the Mediterranean and Jordan River. Now, due to technological gains in water desalination, water use and reuse, water negotiations are no longer binary trade-offs. Instead, they can focus on the much simpler challenges of distribution and pricing.

What could this mean in practice? U.S. assistance in Gaza can fund a small solar field to power the existing Gaza Wastewater Treatment Plant, build up the community-based solar desalination units piloted by MIT, expand the UNICEF solar-fuel facility in Gaza’s Khan Younis neighborhood, initiate additional phases of the World Bank-funded North Gaza Emergency Sanitation Treatment plant, and repair water infrastructure degraded by three wars. Water also is directly linked to electricity; progress in water and sanitation will yield a better, more predictable power supply. There is real potential for small-scale, renewable power throughout Gaza, supplying energy at the community level while minimizing the risk of disruption historically associated with Gaza’s power plant.

*Second, U.S. assistance should be used to substantially expand trade between Palestinians and Israelis*. Consider the northern West Bank city of Jenin: Israel decided 15 years ago that if it opened a crossing point so Israeli Arabs could shop in the West Bank, it would be a stabilizer, even though the Second Intifada rebellion was ongoing. That calculation was successful; increased Palestinian trade has reduced unemployment in the northern West Bank from reportedly 50 percent in 2003 to below 20 percent now. These robust trading channels have opened sustainable opportunities for small and medium-sized businesses, improved local governance and fostered broad-based security for Palestinians and Israelis alike. In 2003, Jenin was the center for suicide bombers during the peak of the Second Intifada but now is one of the more successful Palestinian cities.

The Jenin model is replicable. American aid can help establish similar trading zones in the West Bank city of Qalqilya where Palestinian traders, shopkeepers and small businesses can sell directly to the large Israeli Arab community a few miles away. The Jenin model also can work in Gaza: Palestinian textile manufacturers have relationships with Israeli designers and European markets; Gaza historically supplied much of the fresh fruits and vegetables in Israel. These relationships could restart in months with the sustained, predictable opening of the Karem Shalom crossing and additional trading corridors from Erez or elsewhere.

Perhaps most interesting is the nascent but growing Gaza tech sector, where Gaza Sky Geeks is incubating Palestinian start-ups and more established firms are initiating software development with tech firms in Israel and beyond. Israel’s tech industry has more than 10,000 unfilled jobs which could be filled from the surplus of high-tech graduates in the West Bank and Gaza.

*Third, education is a key foundation for a better future*. Israelis and Americans have long criticized the Palestinian Authority for not educating its people for peace. Why not engage American universities and NGOs to elevate the Palestinian education system and prepare Palestinians for a 21st century economy? Bard College has provided long-term teacher training at Al Quds University in which teachers and principals earn an American master’s degree in education and serve as leaders in their schools. Imagine if education programming and people-to-people funding allowed the best cohort of Palestinian youth to study in Israeli universities, intern at Israeli high-tech firms, and do residencies at Israeli hospitals.  _​


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## fncceo (Sep 16, 2018)

I originally posted this in another thread in response to your post in another thread...

To be fair, no one has had a realistic plan to this situation for 70 years.

Every year that goes by puts the Palestinians in a worse bargaining position than before.

Being brought to the table, even by force, would be in their best interests.


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## rylah (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.



Maybe You don't understand Trump's strategy, the only time when such new ideas surface regarding actual  positive changes in Palestinian society - is only when other options are left unavailable. And it works.
There's another likely strategy in negotiation management - one puts the best offer on the table at the very beginning. Each new stage of negotiations is reacted with a reduction of the offer. It works as well.

Also one has to remember that the people on the other side of the table are wealthy govt leaders who's main personal income has been international aid, but barely show any real investment or interest in the development of the society.




Coyote said:


> Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> 
> _With prospects for diplomacy dim, with the need to change reality on the ground to restore a sense of possibility, and with past lessons showing that assistance should be used to promote development and reduce Israeli-Palestinian friction, *we propose three recommendations *for Congress to reprogram the $200 million fiscal 2018 monies to create a more stable economic, political and security environment in Gaza and the West Bank:
> 
> ...



I see a plan to apply US aid, use of Israeli job-market, economy and campuses.
Q. What are the returns for the investment?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 17, 2018)

It is good to see that people are beginning to think about what needs to be done in Palestine.

The requirements in Gaza are different than the West Bank. Electricity, water, and sanitation are critical. It should never have been allowed to get this bad. There are some projects in the works but they must be expanded and expedited. There is no time to waste on political bullshit. Get it done.

Almost half of Gaza's farmland is out of production. It will take time and money to get this soil reformed and back in production. I don't see this addressed in the plan.

Gaza's economy will continue t fail without the free movement of people, goods, and money without having to go through Israel. I don't see this addressed in the plan.

One of the biggest problems in the West Bank is that most people love in "population centers" (ghettos, bantustans, whatever) with little or no land available for agriculture, industry, or population growth. I don't see this addressed in the plan.

There is more, but I am trying to keep this short.


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## TNHarley (Sep 17, 2018)

"without regard to human suffering"

Palestinians = fucking terrorists... smh


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## rylah (Sep 17, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> It is good to see that people are beginning to think about what needs to be done in Palestine.
> 
> The requirements in Gaza are different than the West Bank. Electricity, water, and sanitation are critical. It should never have been allowed to get this bad. There are some projects in the works but they must be expanded and expedited. There is no time to waste on political bullshit. Get it done.
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I haven't seen anyone expect foreign aid to be a magic pill.
Which brings me to another question:

*Q. What will ensure that PLO uses the aid for the intended civilian projects,*
*and what are their obligations/time frames upon receiving the aid?*


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## yiostheoy (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
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Damm Coyote are you a PLO lover ??


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## flewism (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamantly oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> ​


​
 I adamantly* support*  the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 17, 2018)

I need to dumb this down. If Mexico was doing to the US what the Palestinians are doing to Israel, there would be no Mexico. Israel is freaking tolerant.


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## dannyboys (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
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Why doesn't Iran, who sends literally millions of dollars worth of arms/rockets/munitions to the Palestinians every year divert some of the money for food and medicine?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 17, 2018)

dannyboys said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> ...



You know the answer. They are a terror regime that doesn't value human life. Like Fatah and Hamas.


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## Natural Citizen (Sep 17, 2018)

Just recall that it was Israel who helped to create Hamas in order to counter Arafat. We're morally responsible in it as well, given our constant preemprive war crusade to spread 'democracy' all over the globe. How many shadow governments we've installed all over the world, in order to influence what goes on over there, I've lost count.  It should be of no surprise that Palestine ended up electing Hamas. It was okay back then, it served its purpose in countering Arafat, but now it's just a big mess.

I think the entire terms of controversy that drive the middle east discussion are wrong. Apples and oranges, for the most part.


My two cents.


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## Natural Citizen (Sep 17, 2018)

End all of the foreign aid and kick all of their lobbys out of Washington. We're broke.The nonsense in the middle east is costing us trillions of dollarswe don't have. You wanna know why people don't have healthcare? That's why. And all that the preemptive meddling is accomplishing is a systematic erosion of our liberties here at home, all under the preposterous pretext of security. All we're doing is inviting blowback. Americans are always the losers when that happens. Always. A thinking man might wonder if the hegelian dialectic is at play here.

Bring em home, build more bases here, that's real national defense, and that's real defense spending, quit spending trillions of dollars we don't have under military spending budget and let the jerkoffs kill each other over there. It's none of our business. Done that way, guaranteed that poor Israel would put their arbitrary victim startus card right back in their pocket where they pulled it from and we wouldn't hear much of anything from over there. I've always said that if anyone in the world ever pops off a nuke, it'll be Israel.

The rest of the world is getting tired of that nonsense in the middle east. And our government is largely at fault for it in the modern era.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 17, 2018)

Those whose mission in life is to kill those of a differing ethnicity shouldn't receive a penny.  I am glad Trump did the sensible thing.

 I often find myself wondering if we would be seeing so much terrorism today if the world had not been rewarding it for the last five decades.  The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians for the purpose of propaganda have proven that mass murder is a lucrative business.  It is time for that to stop.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 17, 2018)

TNHarley said:


> "without regard to human suffering"
> 
> Palestinians = fucking terrorists... smh




 I suppose that if somebody defines Jewish people as something other than human, then they can propagandize for those wishing to kill them by whining about "human suffering"

The suffering of all those who are terrorized obviously does not count for this particular propagandist.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 17, 2018)

US State Department Revokes PLO Ambassador Family Visas


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 17, 2018)

Natural Citizen said:


> End all of the foreign aid and kick all of their lobbys out of Washington. We're broke.The nonsense in the middle east is costing us trillions of dollarswe don't have. You wanna know why people don't have healthcare? That's why. And all that the preemptive meddling is accomplishing is a systematic erosion of our liberties here at home, all under the preposterous pretext of security. All we're doing is inviting blowback. Americans are always the losers when that happens. Always. A thinking man might wonder if the hegelian dialectic is at play here.
> 
> Bring em home, build more bases here, that's real national defense, and that's real defense spending, quit spending trillions of dollars we don't have under military spending budget and let the jerkoffs kill each other over there. It's none of our business. Done that way, guaranteed that poor Israel would put their arbitrary victim startus card right back in their pocket where they pulled it from and we wouldn't hear much of anything from over there. I've always said that if anyone in the world ever pops off a nuke, it'll be Israel.
> 
> The rest of the world is getting tired of that nonsense in the middle east. And our government is largely at fault for it in the modern era.



Despite all that spend, entitlements comprise 66% of our mandatory spend. Address that before military spend.


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## rylah (Sep 17, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> US State Department Revokes PLO Ambassador Family Visas



I've opened a thread about this specific idevelopment as well.


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## MJB12741 (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
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Well, let us consider what our financial aid results in.  For Israel it results in endless worldly contributions  for better lives, some of which are listed on the thread "Israel:  Helping To Make A Better World."  And for Palestinians --- you tell us.  Fair enough?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 17, 2018)

MJB12741 said:


> Well, let us consider what our financial aid results in.  For Israel it results in endless worldly contributions  for better lives, some of which are listed on the thread "Israel:  Helping To Make A Better World."  And for Palestinians --- you tell us.  Fair enough?




Ok, so Israel has contributed to the world enormously in science, technology, the arts, and humanitarianism.

 Aren't you forgetting the Palestinians incredible contributions in regards to the creation and refinement of the suicide vest?

We wouldn't be where we are today without it!


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

MJB12741 said:


> Coyote said:
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> 
> > I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> ...


Thread isnt about aid to Israel.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
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> 
> > I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> ...


I understand Trumps strategy all to well.  We saw it first hand when he ripped apart families at the border


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> MJB12741 said:
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Says the bully who orders people to attack Christians every time the discussion is about Islam .    ......as far as aid to these particular Arabs, though, have they done to deserve any? All they use it for is try to kill Jews .


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

fncceo said:


> I originally posted this in another thread in response to your post in another thread...
> 
> To be fair, no one has had a realistic plan to this situation for 70 years.
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> ...


Do you think defunding hospitaks and medical csre is the way to do it?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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This thread isn't about Mexican immigrants .


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> fncceo said:
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> > I originally posted this in another thread in response to your post in another thread...
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One has to ask themselves why Palestine is not funding their own hospitals.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Not to mention the Canadian pointing out the irony of Americans demanding appropriately funded medical care for Palestinians.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


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Look at their economy.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Not to mention the Canadian pointing out the irony of Americans demanding appropriately funded medical care for Palestinians.


Not sure what you mean?


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Oh, I have been. 

Your answer is that Palestine is incapable of providing basic services to its population, then, yes?  As opposed to being capable, but choosing to spend money elsewhere.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
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Actually, there are a lot of countries around the world that require assistance of one sort or another as a result of war, failed states, economic or environmental collapse, or struggling development.

 Not sure why the Palestinian people should be uniquely singled out as unworthy of humanitaian assistance.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Actually, there are a lot of countries around the world that require assistance of one sort or another as a result of war, failed states, economic or environmental collapse, or struggling development.
> 
> Not sure why the Palestinian people should be uniquely singled out as unworthy of humanitaian assistance.



Well, you would have to convince me both that the CAUSE of the removal of voluntary aid is because Palestine is "unworthy", which is unlikely.  You'd also have to convince me that it has "uniquely" been deprived of humanitarian assistance.  Both of those appear to be appeals to emotion rather than valid arguments.

Yes, there are many countries in the world in need of assistance for a variety of reasons.  The thing with Palestine is that a peace agreement, along with all the goodies that would come with it, is the SOLUTION to the problem.  Yet they need to be pressured into accepting this solution to their people's suffering.  Why is that, do you think?


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
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> > Actually, there are a lot of countries around the world that require assistance of one sort or another as a result of war, failed states, economic or environmental collapse, or struggling development.
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Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?

It is hardly an appeal to emotion.  It is factual.  The Trump administration is quietly stopping most if not all US assistance to the Palestinians.  Assistence toIsraek is unaffected.

If this were aimed at Israel for its refusal to stop settlements you would label it anti-semitic.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


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That the Trump administration is stopping US funding to Palestine is factual.  That the cause of it is because Palestinians are "unworthy" is an appeal to emotion.  

And no, if the Trump administration stopped funding to Israel along with a demand to stop "settlement building" it would be the same as it is here -- political pressure.  It only becomes anti-semitism when accompanied by rhetoric such as appeals to emotions.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?



What is not to trust in either the US or Israel's intentions with respect to a peace treaty based on mutual negotiations?  The last offer gave the Palestinians EVERYTHING they asked for -- including ALL of East Jerusalem and ALL of the Jewish Holy Places.  It was refused.

Somehow that makes Israel and the US not trustworthy?


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## flacaltenn (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?



The issue is "who is they"..  Who's speaking for all the Palestinians? Which is the SAME ISSUE in sending foreign aid. Who is GETTING IT and managing it and distributing it? There is no real functional Palestinian Authority anymore. No one org to hold RESPONSIBLE for peace negotiations OR the use of foreign aid monies.

You know how I feel about pressuring Palestinians into a Western style nation govt that is not historically, culturally, acceptable to the way that Arabs naturally organize. They organize by tribal, sectarian, familial lines of authority. NOT a PLO or PA that just confirms their fears about graft and corruption and bias in distributing things.

That's largely why Hamas was able to make inroads in the West Bank elections. BECAUSE the Fatah dominated PA WAS filled with graft and corrruption and bias.

They NEED new leadership.. They NEED to negotiate. But the US and western powers expect to see a UNITY NATIONAL govt -- and that is why there's never been solutions to this problem..


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## rylah (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Would be both antisemitic and against US Law.
There's no equivalence between withdrawing support for people of an ethnic group simply because they live in an area that they're fully entitled to, versus de-funding a govt that uses US aid for salaries of convicted terrorists.

The issue of investment-return and risks were not remotely discussed yet.
The US is blamed as if they owe them something, but no one raised the concern of lack of basic guarantees that this aid won't eventually end up supporting anti-American activity.


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## pismoe (Sep 17, 2018)

feck 'palistine' .   This idea of American taxpayer money tp 'palis' is absurd .


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

rylah said:


> Would be both antisemitic and against US Law.
> There's no equivalence between withdrawing support for people of an ethnic group simply because they live in an area that they're fully entitled to,
> versus de-funding a govt that uses US aid for salaries of convicted terrorists.



The idea that people of Jewish ethnicity are not permitted to live in certain places in the world is absolutely, without question, at its core anti-semitic.  The idea that a future Palestine must be Jew-free is also anti-semitic.

Prevention of Israeli unilateral "annexation" of disputed territory is not.  But most people discussing "settlements" confuse the two.


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## TNHarley (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> fncceo said:
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> > I originally posted this in another thread in response to your post in another thread...
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So the palis would rather fund terrorism than hospitals?
And you are on trumps ass? LOL


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## Borillar (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
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As long as the Palestinians are represented by Hamas and the PLO, there will be no peace. Any aid other than humanitarian aid is pointless and counterproductive.


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## rylah (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> rylah said:
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Yes that's important that we spot valid criticism.
I'm not sure that US law regarding the issue allows prevention of unilateral annexation, Israel has the title backed both by the US and international law.

The only working Arab state in Palestine gave up the title. Hamas didn't sign Oslo, PLO did and they threaten to abandon the agreement making them legally irrelevant.

What part of the picture do I miss?


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## rylah (Sep 17, 2018)

All I'm saying...
If the Palestinian fractions don't start showing results of investment in social development,
Gradually Jordan can turn into a new beneficiary of what used to be Palestinian aid,
unlike the Palestinian fractions Jordan is also a strategic ally of the US.

When other regional incentives start showing up on the table, regional normalization efforts, current Palestinian fractions may simply start to dissolve into chaos as their legitimacy and budget fade, this is a danger if the society doesn't make fundamental shifts in priorities.

To me it seems like such a shift can happen only from the inside. Doesn't matter how much money one pours in.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

rylah said:


> Shusha said:
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Oh, I agree with you.  Israel HAS legal title to all of the territory so it can't truly annex its own territory.  

Though one might be able to argue that since Israel has voluntarily refrained from exercising its full sovereignty over certain territories, and has actually formally removed sovereignty from Gaza, that Israel has already ceded the territory.  (Making it _terra nullius).  _I find the idea that territory must be set aside as _terra nullius_ and remain so for a possible future State to be legally problematic.  It seems to me that legally, absent negotiated peace treaty, it is just as valid for Israel to annex that _terra nullius_ as it is for Palestine to annex it.  

What makes it ethically problematic is when people of certain ethnicities (or nationalities) are encouraged to reside there and people of other ethnicities (nationalities) are prohibited from residing there.  That reeks of what it is.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

rylah said:


> All I'm saying...
> If the Palestinian fractions don't start showing results of investment in social development.
> Gradually Jordan can turn into a new beneficiary of what used to be Palestinian aid,
> Jordan is also an important strategic ally.
> ...



Hmmmm.  That is an interesting idea.  Funding international humanitarian aid for Palestinians through Jordan.  (Not sure that is exactly what you meant, but that is what I got thinking about.)  

The problem with humanitarian aid, always, is how to get that aid to the people, without going through a government which is disinclined to assist its own people.


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## MJB12741 (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Right on.  Look at Hamas and Fatah.


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## rylah (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


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The only conclusion I can make of the situation as described is that any withdrawal of Israeli control can happen legally only by it's own will. The PA receives its' status directly from Israel's agreement, Gaza exists as separate from Israel as a follow up sovereign act, again of Israel.

Seems like the best long term "aid solution" is to gradually annex all of those back to Israel, if there's no sign of intention for constructive regional development and order under PA and Hamas control.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 17, 2018)

*The EU, UK and France provide around € 5.5 million for the implementation of nineteen social infrastructure projects in Area C of the West Bank *

The signing ceremony for the grant implementation agreements was held yesterday in Ramallah between the Municipal Development and Lending Fund (MDLF) and the representatives of sixteen local communities across the West Bank. The event was attended by the representatives of the Palestinian Ministry of Local Government, the European Union, the United Kingdom Department for International Development, and the French Development Agency.

*The EU, UK and France provide around € 5.5 million for the implementation of nineteen social infrastructure projects in Area C of the West Bank - EEAS - European External Action Service - European Commission*


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 17, 2018)

*Water for Gaza: EU switches on the biggest solar energy field in the Gaza strip to fuel projects providing drinking water to people in dire needs *

*Gaza Central Desalination Plant - providing drinking water to 2 million people in Gaza
*
On 20 March 2018, the EU held a pledging conference in Brussels on the
Gaza Central Desalination Plant & Associated Works Project. The conference, co-chaired by the EU and the Palestinian Authority, mobilised financial support of €456 million to this biggest ever infrastructure project in the Gaza strip, which will provide a minimum of 55 million m3 of safe and clean drinking water per year. The EU pledged €70 million for the desalination plant plus €7.1 million for management costs.

Water for Gaza: EU switches on the biggest solar energy field in the Gaza strip to fuel projects providing drinking water to people in dire needs - EEAS - European External Action Service - European Commission


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## MJB12741 (Sep 17, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> *The EU, UK and France provide around € 5.5 million for the implementation of nineteen social infrastructure projects in Area C of the West Bank *
> 
> The signing ceremony for the grant implementation agreements was held yesterday in Ramallah between the Municipal Development and Lending Fund (MDLF) and the representatives of sixteen local communities across the West Bank. The event was attended by the representatives of the Palestinian Ministry of Local Government, the European Union, the United Kingdom Department for International Development, and the French Development Agency.
> 
> *The EU, UK and France provide around € 5.5 million for the implementation of nineteen social infrastructure projects in Area C of the West Bank - EEAS - European External Action Service - European Commission*


Well hey.  All countries make some mistakes.


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## fncceo (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


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The Palestian Leadership still receives huge sums from EU and UN sources.  It's up to the Palestinians how they choose to prioritize their spending.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> rylah said:
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That is not a problem unique to the Palestinians.  It is huge problem world wide where aid has to be funneled through corrupt state leadership.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


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How many people of non Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in settlements?


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?
> ...



The US is absolutely no longer a trustworthy negotiator.  Given the political climate NOW, Netanyahu and Likuds own derogatory statements on Palestinians - why should they trust that government or Trump?

Any negotiation involves carrots and sticks.  The Pals have certainly received sticks.  What good faith carrots have they been given by Trump?  What sticks has Israel received?  Zero to both?


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?
> ...


I don’t disagree with that ... in fact I started a thread on it.

How is stripping humanitarian aid going to help?


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



In other threads you made clear that singling Israel out for condemnation, for things other states do is anti Semitic.

In this case many countries in political turmoil and states of war get humanitarian aid.  The Palestinians are being uniquely singled out for cuts in all aid from the US, and in some cases that aid is being redirected to Israeli projects.

So if it were Israel being uniquely singled out it darn well would be labeled anti semitism.

But it is suddenly righteous political pressure when the Palestinians are targeted?  Really?


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> How many people of non Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in settlements?



And how many people of Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in Arab settlements in the disputed territories?  I THINK, if you examined things objectively, you would find far more Arabs living peacefully and equally in Israel's territory than you will find Jews living peacefully and equally in Arab Palestine.  

The fact that you ask the question as a one-sided question, is illuminating.  If it is _terra nullius_, wouldn't both peoples have equal rights to reside there?  Pending a final status agreement?


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Again, I ask what makes the US an untrustworthy negotiator?  

As to the rest, I disagree.  Palestinians have received FAR more carrots than sticks.  Since when is being offered EVERYTHING you want a stick?  Since when is Israel unilaterally ceding territory (Gaza, Areas A and B) to Palestine a stick?  Since when is millions of $ in foreign funds annually a stick?  Indeed, Palestine has been offered carrot, after carrot, after carrot.  None seems to be working.  Palestine, thus far, hasn't even been required to give up TERRORISM and violence against innocent Israelis.  Time for some sticks.  Some true sticks.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > How many people of non Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in settlements?
> ...



I ask it as a one sided question because I am responding to a one sided comment 

The point is, the difference is one of degree.  It doesn’t matter what other Arab countries do.  This is about Israel and Palestine...the fact that Israel does a better job of diversity doesn’t alter the fact that when it comes to settlements built in occupied/disputed territory there is little to no diversity.  Why?

Why aren’t non Jews encouraged to expand into those areas?

And another question that doesn’t get answered.  What new Arab settlements have been built for Arabs outside that region to migrate to?  That would be analogous to the Jewish settlements but no one is willing to back anything up with numbers.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.  Then followed with the ending of funding and closing th3 diplomatic mission.

How does that create a trustworthy relationship?

Let me put it another way.  Trump states that Jerusalem is the Palestinian Capital and moves embassy there.

Israel protests the action and halts talks with the US.

Trump retaliates by cutting all aid to Israel.

How should Israel feel about the US as a good faith partner?



> As to the rest, I disagree.  Palestinians have received FAR more carrots than sticks.  Since when is being offered EVERYTHING you want a stick?  Since when is Israel unilaterally ceding territory (Gaza, Areas A and B) to Palestine a stick?  Since when is millions of $ in foreign funds annually a stick?  Indeed, Palestine has been offered carrot, after carrot, after carrot.  None seems to be working.  Palestine, thus far, hasn't even been required to give up TERRORISM and violence against innocent Israelis.  Time for some sticks.  Some true sticks.



Each new president is a new negotiation.  

What carrots did Trump give the Palestinians? Be specific.

What sticks has Israel ever really gotten?  The US blocks them.  Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?


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## MJB12741 (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Oh please.  Spare us your bleeding heart for the Palestinians as victims of Israel.  Fact is 7 Arab nations unite to annihilate Israel, tell the Palestinians to leave until the mission is accomplished meanwhile leaving the Palestinians as refugees.  6 days of war & Israel wins.  GAME OVER.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I ask it as a one sided question because I am responding to a one sided comment


On the contrary.  The comment you were responding to called for EQUALITY.  That is, both peoples having equal rights to claim and annex disputed territory. 



> ..the fact that Israel does a better job of diversity doesn’t alter the fact that when it comes to settlements built in occupied/disputed territory there is little to no diversity.  Why?  Why aren’t non Jews encouraged to expand into those areas?


Because of the conflict.  Obviously.  The Jewish people, for reasons perfectly justifiable, are reluctant to exchange their safety in their communities for diversity.  (May the memories of Ari Fuld,  and other victims of terrorism, be a blessing). And Israel, for reasons perfectly justifiable, is reluctant to formally annex both the territory and the Arab Palestinian peoples who are SUPPOSED to be seeking self-determination, remember? 

Why aren't Jews being welcomed into Nabi Saleh?  And where are the calls from the international community for diversity in Arab communities in the disputed territories?  Where are the calls from the international community for Ahed and her family to take in returnees -- Jewish returnees?  Where is the demand for diversity in Gaza?  In Areas A and B?

Is Palestine calling for the unilateral withdrawal of Arab Palestinian peoples from Israeli territory?  Are they willing to pick up and move 10,000 or more Arabs from Israel in a gesture of goodwill and ceding of territory? 




> What new Arab settlements have been built for Arabs outside that region to migrate to?  That would be analogous to the Jewish settlements but no one is willing to back anything up with numbers.


There were more than 15,000 illegal Arab housing units put up in Jerusalem between 2014 and 2016.  There have been dozens of illegal Arab settlements created.  The EU has supported several expanding or new Arab communities. 

Again, I'll ask you -- what is the OBJECTIVE standard here.  I said the objective standard should be that both Israel and Palestine has equal right to annex the disputed territories.  I said the objective standard should be that both Jews and Arabs should be permitted to reside there.  Do you have a different objective standard?


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## MJB12741 (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



But it is about financial aid to Palestinians.  And you still have not told us what good it does for even the Palestinians, let alone the world.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?
> 
> I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?



Israel does not NEED any sticks to be brought to the table.  Israel has come to the table, with generous offers for peace, for DECADES.  The last was only ten years ago.  

Israeli pre-conditions?  What would those be?  What pre-conditions do you think Israel demands?


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.



The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so.  What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory.  Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I ask it as a one sided question because I am responding to a one sided comment
> ...


On the first part...this was what I had responded to and was one sided unless I interpreted it wrong and you agree that people of certain ethnicities are (de facto) prohibited from residing in settlements and it also reeks?



> What makes it ethically problematic is when people of certain ethnicities (or nationalities) are encouraged to reside there and people of other ethnicities (nationalities) are prohibited from residing there. That reeks of what it is.



On the rest, we are really talking about the disputed or occupied territories where settlement activity is going on...not Gaza...not Israel proper.  Every Arab “settlement” you refer to is illegal.  Contrast that with the Jewish settlements.  How many legal Jewish settlements are there?  How many legal Arab settlements?


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.
> ...


And East Jerusalem?  Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent  war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world.  Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) .  Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

So it's NOT necessarily dire. Although they are overly dependent on foreign aid, they are not a welfare case. Contrast that to the 300,000 Palis CONFINED to ad hoc camps in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon where the situations ARE dire.

As US Administrations see it -- the Palis ARE the West Bank and Fatah. But as the Palis see it, they need to represent the interests of Gaza and the ex-pats in self-exile and containment in the ENTIRE neighborhood or there is no sense in making truces and agreements. There needs to be a unity government and a lasting and legitimate leadership to negotiate peace, but that is never gonna happen with a top-heavy, western style government like the PA.

That Palestine City State idea IS the better solution. It puts 80% of the governing power into the autonomous LOCAL govts, and leaves the top level federation govt as a diplomatic, currency, immigration, tariff, and legal review, LIGHTWEIGHT superstructure that CAN speak to the world under the Palestine flag.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.
> 
> He absolutely took it off the table.



Again, the positioning of the US embassy did no such thing. The East entries to Jerusalem are well established Palestinian villages. And they are getting consumed by the infrastructure (highways, urban growth) of Jerusalem as a whole. This is the 50th year of an unsolved occupation. What do you expect? 

50 years of a dynamic, western style Israel doing what modern western societies do. While the "occupied" face their own expansion pressures, but with no 1st string team on the field to negotiate or represent them. ALL solutions START by creating that "defense team".  That effort is hindered by the historical preferences for local vesting of political and govt power and innate, justified fear of strong national govt structure.. 

At some point, this may have to be done "in their name" and held in trust by a REGIONAL coalition of tthe neighbors.Because the clock is running, nothings happening, and the contest isn't really worth watching..


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## RoccoR (Sep 17, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians 
※→  Coyote, et al,

Is there a strategy here at all?_* (RHETORICAL)* _ Don't assume there is a clever plan or political strategy when there is a lack of a discoverable Middle Policy.



Coyote said:


> Each new president is a new negotiation.
> What carrots did Trump give the Palestinians? Be specific.


*(COMMENT)*

The current White House is just playing at foreign policy.  But really, when you hear any seriously intelligent question put to them on the issues that face us today, all you get is babble, orbiting around the issues by with no clear or straight direction in a circular running track.

The White House is directing its energies to a coercive prodding based on a "no choice" _(empty set)_  political alternative.  It is an induced situation to make it worse to see what response is generated out of the Arab Palestinians.  If the Arab Palestinians simply do nothing in response, then they simply have lost their position with respect to Jerusalem.  Unable to respond, the Arab Palestinians accept the default position that Jerusalem is the Israeli Capitol which makes the Israeli holdings sovereign territory.

There is no carrot for the Arab Palestinians.  And as for the sugar in the hand we feed to the Israelis, it was just an early Christmas present.



Coyote said:


> What sticks has Israel ever really gotten?  The US blocks them.  Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?
> 
> I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?


*(COMMENT)*

Israel doesn't really have any negotiation pre-conditions other than that there be "NO" demands necessary to meet as a pre-condition to negotiations.   The Israelis can sit on the _status quo_ forever and it would not politically injure them.  But the Arab Palestinians become ever more desperate as time trudges on.  They are desperately trying to put pressure on the Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## flacaltenn (Sep 17, 2018)

It's kinda like sitting around expecting the American Indian nation to agree on a UNIFIED settlement with the US Government.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Last I checked the embassy was in WEST Jerusalem.  So how did he take EAST Jerusalem off the table?  And where did he claim that Jerusalem is to be undivided?!  He has actually claimed, clearly, to the contrary. 

And its properly the LIBERATED city in war.  The city was illegally occupied by a foreign power with no legal right to her (that would be Jordan).  Whether it was Israel's or under the sovereignty of a non-existent but future state of Arab Palestine is irrelevant.  The city was liberated from foreign control.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It wasn’t liberated, that is playing with words.  There was no other nation in existence to lay claim to it.


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> On the first part...this was what I had responded to and was one sided unless I interpreted it wrong and you agree that people of certain ethnicities are (de facto) prohibited from residing in settlements and it also reeks?
> 
> 
> 
> > What makes it ethically problematic is when people of certain ethnicities (or nationalities) are encouraged to reside there and people of other ethnicities (nationalities) are prohibited from residing there. That reeks of what it is.



Can you link me to the international calls for the end of building or expansion by Arabs in Area C?


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Um.  Yeah it was liberated.  It was liberated from a foreign power who used military force to cross an international boundary and lay claim to it with no legal right to it.  The nation which legally laid claim to it was (is) Israel.  Legally correctly.  So, its Israel.  And it was liberated. 

There was a time and chance that Israel would cede it.  It was offered again and again and again and again.  I believe that time has passed.  And rightly so.


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## Coyote (Sep 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.
> ...


Trump recognized Jerusalim, not west, but in entirety.  He has done, specifying undivided from his campaign days.

Donald Trump: I will 'recognize Jerusalem as the undivided capital of the State of Israel'

Jerusalem is off the table.

Why should the apakestinians trust the US as an honest broker?


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Ah well. I'm not convinced that the possibility of part of Jerusalem coming under the sovereignty of an eventual future Palestine is "off the table". It will certainly be a hard sell. 

Truthfully, if a hundred years of carrots doesn't bring Palestine to the table I can't think what will. Maybe it's time for some sticks.


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## rylah (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Jerusalem has been the capital of the Jewish nation, longer than London of the English.
And it wasn't ever a capital of an Arab nation, the Arab occupation specifically built a separate city to be their capital instead of Jerusalem -  called Ramle.
Why should Jerusalem be a capital of an Arab nation?

There're no games here - Jerusalem was liberated, the Jewish nation both holds the title legally and culturally, as a sacred trust of the civilization, anything else is antisemitic bigotry and insult to intelligence.

Excuse me for going off topic, I though it was crucial to make that point.
But this is probably an example of how Palestinian aid has become another politicized tool against Israel, rather than an effective tool for constructive development of the society.

That doesn't change that fact that money won't buy them Jerusalem, or an effective government, or change their failing priorities.


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Was Palestine mentioned during the Jordanian occupation?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > How many people of non Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in settlements?
> ...





Shusha said:


> If it is _terra nullius_, wouldn't both peoples have equal rights to reside there? Pending a final status agreement?


It is not _terra nullius,_ it is Palestine. The Palestinians have been living there since long before it legally became Palestine,


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...





Shusha said:


> Since when is Israel unilaterally ceding territory (Gaza, Areas A and B) to Palestine a stick?


Israel cannot cede something that is not theirs.


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## harmonica (Sep 18, 2018)

we are in HUGE DEBT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
....punish people???????? after giving them millions$????
troll thread


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.


And it is illegal to acquire territory by war.


Coyote said:


> He absolutely took it off the table.


Even with all of his bluster, Trump cannot unilaterally change international law.


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## rylah (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



And You don't see how racist is this statement?


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Propaganda weapon against Israel.
> ...



You are so feeble. lol.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?
> ...





Shusha said:


> Israeli pre-conditions? What would those be? What pre-conditions do you think Israel demands?


It demands to keep everything it has stolen.


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So you keep on saying. Yawn.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.
> ...





Shusha said:


> Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.


Israel captured west Jerusalem by force. It is illegal to acquire territory by force.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.


Palestine is not a third world country except where Israel's theft and destruction has made it so.


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yeah and......?

The Soviets captured Berlin by force. In a war of aggression started by the Germans.

Reminds me of something.


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.
> ...



It's a very nice place. I've been all around it. Jericho is particularly nice.

And all those mansions in Narareth. Gorgeous.


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## rylah (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



The Jewish nation has title to Jerusalem backed by international law.
That can't be changed either, You can play pretend all You want, but the only legitimacy for an Arab capital in Jerusalem goes through the generous agreement of the Jewish Nation.

Q. When was that agreement given to the Arab nation?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> The current White House is just playing at foreign policy. But really, when you hear any seriously intelligent question put to them on the issues that face us today, all you get is babble, orbiting around the issues by with no clear or straight direction in a circular running track.


I have *always* thought of Trump as a loose cannon with no detectable thought processes. That is why I didn't vote for him. And, with all of the assholes he brought into his administration, I expect nothing intelligent out of him.


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## rylah (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.
> ...



The Jewish Nation managed to develop the country more than any other nation in history by a far shot.
Before that it was one of the most abandoned, poor and wrecked provinces of the Muslim empire.

One of the reasons for the Arab influx into the country.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


+No. What is racist about it?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Jerusalem was part of Palestine when it was created in 1924.


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

You don't think it's 'funny', Tinmore.

You just can't think of anything constructive to say.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Deflection. Also not true.


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Ah, truth.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Mindful said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


I don't know how to explain it so that you would understand it.


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## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

P


MJB12741 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > MJB12741 said:
> ...


The OP discusses ways in which it can be better utilized To aid the Palestibian people directly.  I assume you read it?

The intent of aid. Particularly humanitarian aid is not intended to help the rest of the world and its benefits are not typically measured by the effects on the rest of the world.


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## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



I am not going to argue who Jerusalem should belong to and whether whole or divided because that really is another topic.  But the reality is both sides feel strongly and passionately about it, both have long standing populations there and religious and historical connections.  Up until now negotiations have recognized that it was part of the negotiation process.

Money, in particular humanitarian aid buys lives.  The intent of that type of aid isn’t necessarily to make political change, at most that is secondary.

The US gives humanitarian aid to a number of countries with corrupt, failing and problematic governments.  And I haven’t heard much call for removing it beyond the context of “get rid of all foreign aid” type calls.

Palestine has been uniquely called out for “punishment” despite the fact that other aid recipients have similar problems.  Again, if it were Israel, folks would be calling it anti-semitism and condemning it.

Aid CAN be restructured so as to benefit them more directly and encourage better government and economy.  That is what the OP is suggesting.


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## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> Is there a strategy here at all?_* (RHETORICAL)* _ Don't assume there is a clever plan or political strategy when there is a lack of a discoverable Middle Policy.
> ...


Israel has preconditions for peace.  It is de facto preconditions for talks because what is the point of talking peace if you have preconditions s for peace.  In the it is the same thing.


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## rylah (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Aid CAN be restructured so as to benefit them more directly and encourage better government and economy.  That is what the OP is suggesting.



How?
I'm all for that....but
It's all too vague, in the meantime is see that this "US aid reconstruction" also means the use of Israeli markets and universities. Which begs the question that I've been asking since the beginning - at what cost?

How is it different from the crazy demand for Gazans to enter Israel during war in which they declare to "rip their hearts and drink their blood" - for j-o-b-s??


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## rylah (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...



Israel doesn't have preconditions for peace.
It has preconditions for passing security obligations to a likely failing fractured hostile government.
Asking for the other side to be eligible for representation is not a precondition, it's a basic logic of negotiations.


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## RoccoR (Sep 18, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians 
※→ Coyote, et al,

I apologize.  I missed it.



Coyote said:


> Israel has preconditions for peace.  It is de facto preconditions for talks because what is the point of talking peace if you have preconditions s for peace.  In the it is the same thing.


*(QUESTION)*

Put me back on track here.  What precondition _(de facto or otherwise)_ does Israel have as requirement for agreement to peace talks?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> I apologize.  I missed it.
> ...



Didn't we go through all this previously with Bill Clinton and Yasser Arafat?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

[ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop.  What other people in conflict with another do this? ]

Palestinian Authority Pays Terrorist who Murdered Ari Fuld $3,000+ Advance Payment!


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## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> [ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop.  What other people in conflict with another do this? ]
> 
> Palestinian Authority Pays Terrorist who Murdered Ari Fuld $3,000+ Advance Payment!


There are plenty of people in conflict areas whos governments do terrible things but they recieve humsnitsrisn aid.  Why are the Palestinians being singled out?


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## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> I apologize.  I missed it.
> ...


Pre conditions for peace...not talks.  But it is effectively the same.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Aid CAN be restructured so as to benefit them more directly and encourage better government and economy.  That is what the OP is suggesting.
> ...


How?  Well whst do you think of the OP's suggestions?  So far no one seems to be actually talking about them


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > [ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop.  What other people in conflict with another do this? ]
> ...


The Palestinians are the only ones who want to the destroy the country they started a war with.

They are the only ones who refused to end the conflict.

They are the only ones who insist on paying their Palestinians citizens and their families for  murdering Jews or if they are killed in self defense by Jews.


When you finally can see the difference between all other conflicts and this one......

Let us know.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> [ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop.  What other people in conflict with another do this? ]
> 
> Palestinian Authority Pays Terrorist who Murdered Ari Fuld $3,000+ Advance Payment!



What do otherpeopke in conflict have to do with it?  You frequently point out that Israel is singled out when other nations do the same thing.  I am making the same point here.  The Palestinians are being singled out.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


I think your bias is showing...


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Preconditions involved recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and cessassation of attempts to get international recognition through the UN.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is a good thing that the US and Belgium and others are waking up to what the Palestinians have always been about.

I believe that I have mentioned about the two countries before, as recent examples.  More need to wake up and do the same.

Rewarding terror.
Encouraging terror.
Inciting their citizens to invade Israel, come in legally or illegally, and kill Jews.

If the Palestinians cared more about their people and aid, they would have come to the table and already make peace.

Instead, we are seeing them destroy the Rafah crossing, twice, refuse medicine, continue to incite on a daily basis for Palestinians to break into Israel, send endless fiery balloons and explosives into Israel .

What conflict is behaving that way?
Again, which government in the world is inciting its citizens to attack another country and kill its people, receive a salary if they are killed themselves or wounded, and its leaders never be made responsible
for these ideas?

The Palestinian population is indeed victim.  But it is victim of the ideologies of Islam which so many of them embrace and will continue to embrace.

The Jews are not the friends of Islam, as far as Islam is concerned and must remain under Islam's control.

As I may have said before, there is nothing to worry about as far as the US and Belgium taking away aid from the Palestinians.

We still have Iran, Qatar, the EU and all others who will continue to furnish 
anything the Palestinian leaders need to continue their war of destruction of Israel, and their absolute need to bring the Jewish people down to what they were before 1948.  I do not need to explain the last remark.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Is it my bias or your lack of knowledge about the subject?


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > [ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop.  What other people in conflict with another do this? ]
> ...


If you cannot look at the other conflicts and see a difference, than no words or pictures will ever make a difference.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Here are all the preconditions.  I would think they are kind of common sense if the Palestinians were truly thinking of ending the conflict, one way or another, that some of those conditions would need to be met in order to show Israel that they are serious about ending that conflict.

Abbas rejects Israel’s new preconditions for peace talks


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


You are uniquelly singling out the Palestinians and supporting removing humatarian aid when others do as bad or worse and recieve aid. How is that different than Israel being unfairly singled out?


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I think the Palestinian pre condition, halting settlements is reasonable as well.

The point is both sides have preconditions.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


There is only one differnce.  Ethnic identity.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


No humanitarian aid is being removed.  The Palestinians get only what their leaders allow them to get.  If you are pro Hamas you get more than others who are not, or are not important to Hamas.
The same with the PA. 
The money goes where they decide it goes.
The medicine goes where they decide it goes because they take a hold of it and sell it to the population, etc

Defunding UNWRA is vital.  It needs to end.  They are not refugees.  They are simply being refused citizenship in the countries they are in, like Jordan, Lebanon, etc.

I will say it again.

You have no clear understanding of what this conflict is about, why removing aid to UNWRA is important and should have been done ages ago.

There is really nothing to cry about for the Palestinians as there are Millions more coming from Iran, because they want to see Israel destroyed, and from Qatar, the EU, etc, exactly for the same reason.

If those countries were giving money to actually build a Palestine and educate the people towards peace, and bring about any talks which could lead towards a Peace treaty as it happened with Egypt and Jordan I would be all for it.

But those agents are not for peace with Israel.

So, why should the USA, UN, EU, anyone, continue to give money which only goes towards promoting more and more terrorism against Israel and all of its citizens, not only the Jewish one?

Stop funding terrorism.
Demand that the PA follow the Oslo Accords.
Put an end to Gaza receiving weapons and endless ways to terrorize, not make peace with Israel.

The only way Egypt and Jordan came to the table to really want peace and ended up signing those Treaties is because they were left in financial difficulties and the wars against Israel were costing them too much.

It cost the Palestinians nothing because like a child who wrecks a car they should not be driving, they end up getting another one from those who want to see them continue wrecking their lives as long as they, someday, destroy Israel.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


WHAT ?????


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...





Sixties Fan said:


> If the Palestinians cared more about their people and aid, they would have come to the table and already make peace.


The only reason for the so called peace talks is to get the Palestinians to negotiate away their rights.

Fuck that.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



That’s not true and it’s why your self-assigned role of Islamic spokesbeard for Arabs-Moslems is such an embarrassment to thinking humans.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Palestine has been uniquely called out for “punishment” despite the fact that other aid recipients have similar problems.  Again, if it were Israel, folks would be calling it anti-semitism and condemning it.



There is nothing "unique" about aide being cut for Palestine.  The Trump government has been notorious for cutting aide or calling for cutting aide to all sorts of countries for all sorts of reasons.  Pakistan.  India.  Egypt.  Honduras.  Yemen.  Mexico.  El Salvador.  Guatemala.  Ghana.  Vietnam.  Zimbabwe.  

There is nothing unique about Palestine.  Unless you want to say they uniquely, as a government, not only incite terrorist acts but REWARD them.  As a policy of government.  That is abhorrent.  It is inhumane.  Is there another government which stands at the UN and proudly announces that millions of dollars of their annual budget goes toward paying terrorists to kill people?  

US aide to Pakistan was cut because they didn't do enough to prevent and combat terrorism.  Why shouldn't US aide to Palestine be cut for the abhorrent crime against humanity of having a government policy of paying wages to terrorists?!


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Preconditions involved recognizing Israel as a Jewish state ....



Recognition is, by definition, a universal condition to any peace talks.  You can't even begin to talk peace if you fail to recognize your negotiating partner.  And States, historically, are permitted to define themselves.  Hence terms such as SELF-determination being rather common.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

Btw, cessation of hostilities is also a universal condition to any peace talks.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I think the Palestinian pre condition, halting settlements is reasonable as well.



It can't be.  Settlements are specifically addressed in existing treaties and documents as a subject for negotiations.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

I Went to the original article.  There it states at the end the following:

The U.S. has reason to be skeptical of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and to be firm in rejecting long-term Hamas rule in Gaza,* but this should not mean abandoning the Palestinians.* That was not the Trump administration’s intent but, unfortunately, *it is the impression left with most Palestinians.*

'Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

Now, that impression will only happen if the Palestinian leaders, in control of any and all communication, gives the population that impression, and we can bet that it will be exactly that.

With all the money and weapons pouring into Gaza and the PA from Iran, Qatar, EU and others, one can hardly say that they are being abandoned at all, when that is exactly what should be happening in order that, just as it happened to Egypt and Jordan, the Palestinian leaders will have a reason to actually WANT to negotiate and sign a Peace treaty with Israel.

3)  Education?  Oslo Accords should have taken care of that but the leaders, Arafat, Abbas and others, insist in the same curriculum.
-  The land belongs to us, and we shall take it eventually by any means.
- The Jews are evil and wish to kill all Palestinians.
- There is no Jewish History in Palestine
- We shall continue to teach, in all forms and media, that the land is ours, the Jews are invaders, and there is only one way for our return, destroying Israel.

Just check the charters.  Neither one has changed.  The PA has not completed one promise from the Oslo Accords which allowed Arafat to return to Judea and the PA to be formed.

1) Billions of dollars given to the PA and Hamas.  No infrastructure built that would make those two areas not dependent on Israel for electricity, water, or anything else.
Why are the PA and Hamas still dependent on Israel?  Why have not Egypt or Jordan taken the issue since 1948?


The authors of the article can cry all they want about any country refusing to give money to the Palestinians or anyone else if they are for terrorism, or anything like that.

The People in Gaza and the PA are educated from birth about Islam's position on Jews and the rights of Jews to be sovereign of their own destiny.

They respond to it, and with the help of other Muslims, in other countries, keep up the idea of victimhood at the hands of Israel, when they, the Palestinian Arabs are the ones who started riots against Jews in 1920.

It is the Arabs, from 5 countries who invaded Israel in 1948.

It is many Arab countries again who invaded Israel in 1967 and 1973.

It is Muslim Arabs who, from Lebanon started wars against Israel.
It is the Palestinian Arabs who have refused to have a State as long as the Jews also got one from 1937 until present day.

Are these authors actually looking at the history and culture of the people they seem to think are going to be hurt by the US, Belgium, etc taking away some of the money donated to them?

Used for peace, I would be all for it.
But, since 1920, the opposite has been true.
Not one Pound, not one Shekel from the Palestinian leaders is used to promote Peace with Israel, while they use and abuse all the help they get from Israel itself.

So, dear authors of the article, in what way do you envision the Palestinians giving up their refugee claims, stopping the education of incitement and murder against Israel, and refusing at every turn any real negotiations for peace as it was done with Egypt and Jordan?


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

The question is how to incentivize peace for the Palestinians.  To put it in a local context, what would convince Tinmore to agree to a two-state solution based on mutual recognition and permanent cessation of hostilities?


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.
> ...



And yet, the Palestinians within the borders of the West Bank lead the best and most productive of ALL the non-assimilated ex-pat or refugees in the region.  It's true. The REAL Pali victims of oppression are NOT in Israel.. 

That's not to make light of a 50 year "occupation gone badly" --- but the standard of living and normality of life in the major Pali cities within Israel FAR exceeds the instability and uncertainty and oppression that the rest of the "unsettled" face elsewhere.


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 18, 2018)

*We just can't have the SAME running chase of the history of this conflict in every thread in the I/P forum. If your post is not about the current event of changes in the US aid policy to the Palestinians, dont' hit reply. EVERY THREAD has a UNIQUE topic. No one wants to read the SAME 2400 year history of the region over and over and over again. 

If you want to discuss the HISTORY of this stalemate -- use the "sticky threads' in the forum listings or start your own thread.  Posts off topic will be deleted and warned. If you don't CARE about this current event -- find another thread. 

Not gonna be an another mod note here. Just thread bans and warnings and deletions.. *


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

[ An opinion about US, and others' aid to the Palestinians ]

The Palestinian Governing Authorities Support Terror and Should Be Cut Off


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> [ An opinion about US, and others' aid to the Palestinians ]
> 
> The Palestinian Governing Authorities Support Terror and Should Be Cut Off



Thank you. 

Why should Americans provide aide to a government which supports the murder of, in this case and others, AMERICAN citizens?

(This one hurts more than most as I have several friends in my world who knew Ari personally.)


----------



## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

The United States is by far the largest donor of financial aid to the Palestinians, with this assistance touching nearly every aspect of life in the Palestinian Authority. But US President Donald Trump threatened on Tuesday to end this aid to the Palestinians, angered by Ramallah’s refusal to cooperate with the US’s efforts to jump-start Israeli-Palestinian peace talks after he declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in December.

The Palestinians want East Jerusalem to be the capital of their future state.

Trump tweeted on Tuesday that Washington was paying the PA hundreds of millions of dollars a year “for nothing,” and complained that the US received “no appreciation or respect” in return.

How much aid does the US give Palestinians, and what’s it for?


----------



## member (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...







 *“I am not going to argue who Jerusalem should belong to [. . .].”*



*"But the reality is both sides feel:*

*strongly* 

 *and passionately *

* about it...."*



*"...both have long standing populations there and religious and historical connections. Up until now negotiations have recognized that it was part of the negotiation process.”*


_(imoo):_

You can’t negotiate peace with terrorists …



I do not believe it. that you're naïve to terrorists.

_a.f.a.i.c:_ Don’t get mixed up with the term resistor  - we all know what it means….it’s just a fancy-schmancy, sugarcoated name for a Palestinian terrorist.  _The:_ “Israel created hamas, ij, etc” ideology.  Sorry, it’s your "free _horrible terrorist_ will..." not in God's name... LaLaLa, _ka-boom._



Hey, I’m all for pt tickmore and his theatre group folk and face painting festival people to have their own…Country/state – without terrorists in the picture as leaders or anywhere near the place.....





and abbass…. 









 i find them to be alike in their leadership.  They let the terrorists handle their dirty work.


_*all his hand-shaking*_ ....




























he knew what went along with being elected “President” for the Palestinian theatre group people:



- photo ops






- traveling around






ha!  ....behind-the-scenes, they had a kite w/his name on it….


So, 

 where’s the negotiators for peace?


_Is it that........_ you too, don’t see Hamass as a terrorist organization and see them in a different *“resistance” light*?


LIKE THIS? Is this better ?  that resistance look....











The government of the Palestinian people are ½ terrorists and 1/2 

 asleep. _Omg_….



*“Israel has preconditions for peace.”*










i dunno...I bet they have a few legitimate "pre-conditions" set forth [for peace].  some i bet...





...revolve around the terrorists and their _*pre-conditons* for peace *charter*_.…






*"It is de facto preconditions for talks because what is the point of talking peace if you have preconditions for peace. In the [ ?] it is the same thing.”*






_defacto- whaaah?_


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 18, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians 
※→  Coyote, et al,

These are no preconditions for negotiation.



Coyote said:


> Preconditions involved recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and cessation of attempts to get international recognition through the UN.


*(COMMENT)*

These are long since past →  the last session of negotiation mid-2014, the Arab Palestinians have demanded a freeze settlement building and release of convicted prisoners as conditions for further negotiations.

But the sit-down at the table is not the same thing as "Good Faith" as in the  Principles of international law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States and the fulfillment of the obligations assumed by the Arab Palestines.  IF the Arab Palestinians refuse to sit-down and make a 'Good Faith" effort THEN what.  Does that mean that the _status quo_ is acceptable to the Arab Palestinians? _*(RHETORICAL)*_

What are the consequences?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Btw, cessation of hostilities is also a universal condition to any peace talks.


So when is Israel going to cease its hostilities?


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Btw, cessation of hostilities is also a universal condition to any peace talks.
> ...



Israel is not committing any hostilities.  Israel is only responding to hostilities committed against them.


----------



## member (Sep 18, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> *We just can't have the SAME running chase of the history of this conflict in every thread in the I/P forum. If your post is not about the current event of changes in the US aid policy to the Palestinians, dont' hit reply. EVERY THREAD has a UNIQUE topic. No one wants to read the SAME 2400 year history of the region over and over and over again.
> 
> If you want to discuss the HISTORY of this stalemate -- use the "sticky threads' in the forum listings or start your own thread.  Posts off topic will be deleted and warned. If you don't CARE about this current event -- find another thread.
> 
> Not gonna be an another mod note here. Just thread bans and warnings and deletions.. *






* "If your post is not about the current event of changes in the US aid policy to the Palestinians, dont' hit reply.."*







_ok_. i'll try.

*"Reshaping US aid to the palestinians."*

...i'm all for helping.  Food, water, medicine, deodorant, diapers, baby formula, m&m's.....






....i'm not for cutting checks and 

 mailing them to:

_The Palestinians_
c/o Hamass and Abbass
123 Jihad Way
An-Salah Township
West Bank, Palestine 000111-WB234

how does it work again? maybe that part can be better negotiated ...



 

 who gets _that check_ at Beth Israel Hospital that goes towards 

  "treating the palestinians." what kind of treatment?  no problem, here's....medicine and bandaids and other tangible medicine.

ask what's-his-face to [cut the zillion $$ check] to fund the jerusalem hospitals that help "treat the palestinians."






we need the  $$$ to use for our own hospitals.  all the $$$$$$$ illegal mexicans [and the rest of the moochers from south america] cost the the working people......we can use the extra couple of bucks [we're saving] to help pay for them to_......continue to mooch more_.  Let's keep it _"local."_


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> These are no preconditions for negotiation.
> ...



What is the actual difference between pre-conditions for peace and pre-conditions for negotiating...none really. What is the point of negotiating something for which there are preconditions set? Shouldn’t those conditions be part of the good faith effort of sitting to talk rather being removed from the process all together?  In end it is the same, an obstacle to negotiation.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

member said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Your posts are extremely cumbersome to make sense of.  If you are asking whether I see Hamas as a terrorist organization, the answer is yes.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Mindful said:


> The United States is by far the largest donor of financial aid to the Palestinians, with this assistance touching nearly every aspect of life in the Palestinian Authority. But US President Donald Trump threatened on Tuesday to end this aid to the Palestinians, angered by Ramallah’s refusal to cooperate with the US’s efforts to jump-start Israeli-Palestinian peace talks after he declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in December.
> 
> The Palestinians want East Jerusalem to be the capital of their future state.
> 
> ...


How is the US jump starting negotiations?  What is Trumps plan here?

Trump is pissed that the PA is angry over his Jerusalem move and refused to engage in talks because they feel the US can no longer be a good faith partner.   That is what all this cutting of aid is about.  Trump’s personal vendetta.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Settlement building can be considered a hostile action.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Palestine has been uniquely called out for “punishment” despite the fact that other aid recipients have similar problems.  Again, if it were Israel, folks would be calling it anti-semitism and condemning it.
> ...



What humanitarian aid has actually been cut from those countries?  Have their diplomatic missions been shut down? Has aid to hospitals and education been cut?  Has all aid been cut?


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## RoccoR (Sep 18, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians 
※→ Coyote, et al,



Coyote said:


> What is the actual difference between pre-conditions for peace and pre-conditions for negotiating...none really. What is the point of negotiating something for which there are preconditions set? Shouldn’t those conditions be part of the good faith effort of sitting to talk rather being removed from the process all together?  In end it is the same, an obstacle to negotiation.


*(ANSWER)*

What are preconditions for negotiations?
•  These are conditions set just to agree to sit down and talk (negotiate) terms.
Example:  A precondition for before negotiation to take place might be that Israel to temporarily halt settlement construction.​
What are preconditions for peace?
•  These are conditions set by negotiated terms before a permanent peace is set.
Example:  A precondition for before permanent peace goes into effect might be that Israel agrees to withdraw from certain territory.​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 18, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

Well this idea of something is "considered" by one side or the other has consequences; but, might on be valid.



Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The West Bank, by prior agreement with the sole representatives of the Arab Palestinian People, was designed into one of three areas.

*Area A*
Area A • Full civil and security control by the Palestinian Authority 

*Area B*
Area B •• Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control initially

*Area C*
Area C • Full Israeli civil and security control with Israeli settlements and Israeli military checkpoints, where the access is closed and restricted to Palestinians.  Settlement were listed in the Oslo Accords as subject to the permanent status of negotiation.​ 
This again was done in the full light of day and witnessed by representatives of the international community.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Darkwind (Sep 18, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> ...


I'm actually and advocate for an opposite approach.

I would put My minimum offer on the table.  Then, each time they counter, I would add conditions to the offer as counter.

When they get the idea that...

1.  If they don't take it now, it is only going to get worse, and

2.  Shows an iron-willed commitment to My position.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

These cuts aren’t to funds going to or through PA.  They are funds going to organizations that help the Palestinian people. 


Trump administration to cut $200 million from Palestinian aid

WASHINGTON - The Trump administration announced on Friday that it has decided to cut $200 million from the aid budget to the Palestinians that was approved by Congress earlier this year.

*Most of this money was supposed to support humanitarian and economic projects in the West Bank and Gaza, and was not meant to go directly to the Palestinian Authority.* The aid cut is expected to cause a deterioration in the humanitarian situation in Gaza.


Catholic workers say U.S. aid cuts to Palestinians could be disastrous

*JERUSALEM — *The United States budgetary cuts to humanitarian aid institutions helping Palestinians could lead to long-term disastrous consequences, said Catholic aid workers in the region.

...In early September, U.S. President Donald Trump said his administration *would cut $200 million of aid to medical and humanitarian aid providers. *He had already announced that the U.S. would withhold $350 million from the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East -- amounting to more than one-quarter of the organization's annual budget.

DuBose said CRS' five-year $50-million program "Envision Gaza 2020" program, which is funded by USAID and *provides food and necessity vouchers as well as short-term employment opportunities for Palestinians in Gaza*, will be directly impacted by Trump's decision.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Really?  The presence of Jews (because we ARE only talking about Jews here) in certain places in the world is considered a hostile act?! 

The presence of Jews in places they returned to after being ethnically cleansed is an act of hostility?  Places like the Old City where Jews have lived for thousands of years?  Places like Hebron where the patriarchs are buried?

Is the presence of Arabs on the Temple Mount, the Holiest place in Judaism also a hostile act?  Why or why not?


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



No.

It isn’t the presence of Jews.  It is the building of new settlements in contested areas and moving people into them.

And gee all these settlements seem to be Jewish only.  Any Arab ones are deemed illegal.  

So yes.  Ina contested a territory it certainly can be viewed as a hostile action and not because it is Jews.


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > The United States is by far the largest donor of financial aid to the Palestinians, with this assistance touching nearly every aspect of life in the Palestinian Authority. But US President Donald Trump threatened on Tuesday to end this aid to the Palestinians, angered by Ramallah’s refusal to cooperate with the US’s efforts to jump-start Israeli-Palestinian peace talks after he declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in December.
> ...



Doesn't appear to be a vendetta. Trump is just following the same failed strategy of trying to jump start the PA back to life so Israel can HAVE a partner to negotiate with. There have been no less than 6 peace pow wows between the PA and Hamas in the past 5 or 6 years. ALL HAVE FAILED. 

The "pre-conditions" are irrelevant if you don't HAVE a diplomatic delegation to negotiate with. Can you REFUTE that last statement? And "foreign aid" is also iffy if you don't have an address of a responsible govt to allocate and distribute it. 

The "negotiation" here by the Trump Admin is no different in lack of brilliance from the Bush Admin PUSHING premature elections on the PA. The PA is NOT the structure that is in a POSITION to negotiate for peace on behalf of ALL Palestinians. They need to reform their governance to THEIR expectations and comfort levels. And then add a very light "federated" govt on top of that -- that will speak for the all the Palestinians.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Building settlements does not sound that bad. It is the destruction and theft of Palestinian property and the attack and expulsion of the Palestinians that is the problem.


----------



## fncceo (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> What good faith carrots have they been given by Trump? What sticks has Israel received?



They were given the greenhouses to grow their own carrots ... they destroyed them.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 18, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Actually you don’t have to have a responsible government to provide aid.  You can bypass the government and work directly with communities which is being hurt by the cuts.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



That's something that NGOs are much better at. The US Fed govt SUCKS at direct LOCAL aid. I have any number of World Bank or NGO programs I can cite that CAN bypass the void of unity national govt much better then the USAID can..


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> 
> ...


As we have seen in the past, Abbas would make demands to have prisoners released, or for Jewish settlement building to be frozen.

Then, what happened about 3 to four times......AFTER he got his wishes......
he reneged on coming to the table to negotiate.

This is how there are nearly 1000 ex prisoners loose around Gaza and areas A and B, with some of them murdering Jews again, attempting to do so, or helping plan new attacks on Israelis.

These are the consequences of giving in to the conditions before one has actually signed a Peace Treaty with the Arab Palestinian leaders.

What they are continuing to do, as we know it, is the same Mohammad did with the Jewish tribe in Arabia in the 7th century.

They sit it out, wait as long as it takes........promises and more promises....

It is known as the Hudna.  Hamas is Playing it.  The PA is playing it.  The UN is playing it.  The EU is playing it.

The only way to put an end to this charlatan ways is to put an end to not only UNWRA, but an end to any and all possible aid to the Palestinian leaders.
Much of that aid, does indeed end up in their pockets, and not in the poor people's care.

I posted in Who are the Palestinians, an article where people in Gaza said exactly things to this effect.
And the same would come out of people in Areas A and B.

As long as the PA leaders and Hamas leaders remain wealthy, there will be no need for them to want to make any deals.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Can you show us where that is actually happening in Gaza and the PA?
How is the help towards Palestinians in Syria going?  Are they being allowed to get any food, water, etc while stuck without being allowed to leave, the "refugee camps" they are forced to stay in, instead of being allowed to become citizens of Syria, or in Lebanon, etc


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> These cuts aren’t to funds going to or through PA.  They are funds going to organizations that help the Palestinian people.
> 
> 
> Trump administration to cut $200 million from Palestinian aid
> ...


UNWRA does not help the Palestinians.
By forcing all that population to remain under a refugee banner, all they have been doing is harm them on a daily basis.

UNWRA and others like them, educate the Arabs against Israel and the Jews.
Help Hamas when possible to hide, out of fear or belief, rockets and any other weapons used against Israel as in 2014.

The Palestinian population, as refugees,  is the only one in the world being used by the Arab leaders in order to be able to destroy a country, namely Israel.

The Palestinians, who also lost 78% of Palestine to the Hashemite tribe, have never been interested in getting back any part of that stolen land.
Never called it stolen Palestinian land.  Not once since 1925.  Not at all from 1948 to 1967.

Saying that the Palestinians are going to "suffer" because of $200 Million less from the US, and Belgium and whoever is food for rabbits.  That is all.
Those who will believe anything will definitely believe that.

The Palestinian leaders have become masters at crying "FOUL" every time any money from the West does not get to them.

I do not hear them cry over any of the Muslim countries cutting or refusal to give anymore, especially when promised to them, aid of any kind.

Look at what happened after 2014, or the war before that.

All of those Arab countries can see that the Palestinian leaders are not serious about peace with Israel, that all the money they give to Gaza and the PA simple goes into the leaders pockets or gets wasted.  It does NOT go to the population that needs it.

And now, for the past 10 years or so, have any of that aid go to pay Arabs for having wounded or killed Jews, or being wounded or killed in the process of wanting to kill Jews..........


Nowhere in the world, such a waste or circus is going on.

And it should not be happening in Gaza or the PA, either.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


None of the Arab settlements in areas A or B, as per the Oslo Accords (remember them?) are deemed to be illegal by anyone.

In Area C, Jews and Arabs need a permit from Israel to build.
The EU seems to think that Arabs should not need a permit to build anywhere in area C and waste Millions on endless attempts to "build" and make it a fait accompli, on the ground for any future Arab State, without allowing for Israel and the PA to sit at the table to negotiate any of that.

So, if Jewish settlements (and there have not been any new ones for over a decade), actually building up the settlements already in existence , on areas allowed to them where they already exist , is considered to be hostile, why aren't the Arab and EU attempts to grab land which does not belong to them considered to be hostile towards any future Peace treaty?


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## RoccoR (Sep 18, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  Coyote, et al,

Maybe there is just another way of looking at this.



Coyote said:


> It is the building of new settlements in contested areas and moving people into them.


*(COMMENT)*

Contested Areas...  What does that mean. _*(RHETORICAL)*_  It means that there is a dispute about the territorial control of these areas.  AND there is two ways to resolve the dispute; Peaceful or Trial by Combat.

In 1948, the Arab League decided that the dispute would be resolved through Trial by Combat.

Periodically, elements of the Regional Arab Community reopens the dispute through Trial by Combat.  In the latter three-quarters of a Century, the participants from the Arab Leagues fought over the dispute relative to the contested areas, have been involved on continuous basis.  Just in the last four years (2014-to-Present) there has been over 340 terrorist attacks by Arab Palestinians on Israel; not including the over 4000 rocket attacks in just the eight months leading up to 2014 Invasion.  Then you have three major conventional wars, and two asymmetric conflicts.  Each of these stings of events were initiated by other than the Israelis.

All of this and the Arab Palestinian still believes that they that is not enough.  Rather than opt to make a good faith effort, the Arab Palestinian consistently choose to go the Trail by Combat as their preferred method of conflict resolution. 



Coyote said:


> And gee all these settlements seem to be Jewish only.  Any Arab ones are deemed illegal.


*(COMMENT)*

They are Jewish Only for a reason.  Given the opportunity, the Arab Palestinians would launch a wave of terrorist attacks.



Coyote said:


> So yes.  Ina contested a territory it certainly can be viewed as a hostile action and not because it is Jews.


*(COMMENT)*

I am not sure, but there is any reason to suggest that the Arab Palestinians would not fight among themselves.  After all, the PLO was expelled from Jordan for events leading up to Black September.  The Arab Palestinians have a record of biting the hands that feed them.

The US consistently supported the Palestinians since the Oslo Accords. This American aid has totaled ≈ $600M each year until just recently.  Yet, the Arab Palestinians bad mouth America as if they are entitled to US support and monetary aid.  Why?  Simply because the Arab Palestinian believes that their way is the only way.  It is time that they learn to stand on their own two feet and pay the consequences for their actions.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Sep 18, 2018)

Coyote said:


> It isn’t the presence of Jews.  It is the building of new settlements in contested areas and moving people into them.
> 
> And gee all these settlements seem to be Jewish only.  Any Arab ones are deemed illegal.
> 
> So yes.  Ina contested a territory it certainly can be viewed as a hostile action and not because it is Jews.



Its not the presence of Jews but the "building of new settlements and moving (Jewish) people into them."  Please explain to me the functional difference between those two things.  Because they seem to be the same to me.  (And Israel has not (until recently) built any new settlements in more than 20 years.)



As an aside, two families move into an area and begin farming in the early 1930s.  Both are from foreign territories.  Both have a continued presence in the territory that their families have been farming for generations.  One family is considered to be "settlers".  The other is not.  What do you think the defining trait is?


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## Mindful (Sep 18, 2018)

From JVL.

The term “Settlements” usually refers to the towns and villages that Jews have established in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and the Gaza Strip since Israel captured the area in the Six-Day War of 1967. In many cases, the settlements are in the same area which flourishing Jewish communities have lived for thousands of years.

The Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics announced in June 2018 that new settlement building in the first quarter of the year had hit a 6-year low.  In the first three months of 2018, ground was broken on 250 settler housing units.  That is the lowest number since the fourth quarter of 2012, when construction began on 273 housing units. 


More coming, if interested.


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## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

Also from JVL:

According to Professor Sara Hirschhorn, Americans comprise about 15 percent of the settlement population. Americans have founded a number of settlements, including Efrat and Tekoa. Originally, Americans who settled in the West Bank were liberal Jews who thought they were trailblazing pioneers like the Jews who came to Palestine in the early 20th century. Later, Americans moving to the area were predominantly Orthodox Jews. One of those immigrants, Baruch Goldstein, a doctor originally from Brooklyn who moved to Kiryat Arba, murdered 29 Muslim worshippers in the Tomb of the Patriarchs on February 1994.

When Arab-Israeli peace talks began in late 1991, more than 80 percent of the West Bank contained no settlements or only sparsely populated ones. Currently, more than 60 percent of Israelis living in the West Bank live in just five settlement blocs - Ma’aleh Adumim, Modi’in Ilit, Ariel, Gush Etzion, Givat Ze’ev - which all lie within only a few miles of the 1949 armistice line (often inaccurately referred to as the 1967 border), otherwise known as the Green Line. These settlement blocs could be brought within Israel’s borders so as to retain an Arab population (from the West Bank) of less than 50,000. It is inconceivable that Israel would evacuate large cities such as Ma’ale Adumim, with a population of approximately 40,000, even after a peace agreement with the Palestinians, and even Yasser Arafat grudgingly accepted at Camp David the idea that the large settlement blocs would be part of Israel.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

And concerning Gaza; everyone knows it, but says nothing about it:

Israel gave up all the territory it held in Gaza and evacuated some West Bank settlements without any agreement from the Palestinians, who now have complete authority over their population within Gaza. This offered the Palestinians an opportunity to prove that if Israel made territorial concessions, they would be prepared to coexist with their neighbor and to build a state of their own. Instead of trading land for peace, however, Israel exchanged territory for terror. Hamas came to power in the Palestinian Authority and instead of using the opportunity to build the infrastructure for statehood, the Gaza Strip became a scene of chaos as rival Palestinian factions vied for power. Terrorism from Gaza also continued unabated and Israeli towns have been repeatedly hit by rockets fired from the area Israel evacuated.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 19, 2018)

Mindful said:


> And concerning Gaza; everyone knows it, but says nothing about it:
> 
> Israel gave up all the territory it held in Gaza and evacuated some West Bank settlements without any agreement from the Palestinians, who now have complete authority over their population within Gaza. This offered the Palestinians an opportunity to prove that if Israel made territorial concessions, they would be prepared to coexist with their neighbor and to build a state of their own. Instead of trading land for peace, however, Israel exchanged territory for terror. Hamas came to power in the Palestinian Authority and instead of using the opportunity to build the infrastructure for statehood, the Gaza Strip became a scene of chaos as rival Palestinian factions vied for power. Terrorism from Gaza also continued unabated and Israeli towns have been repeatedly hit by rockets fired from the area Israel evacuated.


One of Israel's big lies.


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## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > And concerning Gaza; everyone knows it, but says nothing about it:
> ...



Of course you would say that. What else could you say?

A lecturer from Sapir College near  Sderot came to our Shul to give a talk about the constant rocket  bombardment that area receives from Gaza, several times a day! Not only Jews attend that college, but students from around the world. And even Palestinian Arabs.

Think I'm lying?


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## member (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > The United States is by far the largest donor of financial aid to the Palestinians, with this assistance touching nearly every aspect of life in the Palestinian Authority. But US President Donald Trump threatened on Tuesday to end this aid to the Palestinians, angered by Ramallah’s refusal to cooperate with the US’s efforts to jump-start Israeli-Palestinian peace talks after he declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in December.
> ...






*"...Trump’s personal vendetta."*

this is ...pathetic..  you talk about me?

you're from another *[mind] time*.  you're a wikipedia, mac's facebook and joe's blog and grill person where you go to grab a quick summary about important life topics.  *This [cutting of funds to abbass & the terrorists] should have been done ages ago.*

if "obama"  had done it -- i bet it wouldn't have been in your mind a "personal attack." (*S_n_Ap*). if bush had done it, same like president trump *("personal vendetta")* <~~~~~~~~~~~ i bet ~~~~~~~~~~> am i wrong ? LoL......

God Bless the President.  Just love him.  we know, he's rough around the edges .....we say too, calm down, don't reply to these morons........other than that - salute!


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 19, 2018)

Mindful said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Deflection. Has nothing to do with Israel's lies.


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## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




Keep straining. lol.


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## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

Who is lobbing those rockets over to Israel, Tinmore?

Father Christmas?


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## member (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



_*"Actually you don’t have to have a responsible government to provide aid."

"Bypass Government" -- "Trump."*_

sounds wonderful --_ these_ "*not having a responsible government*" places.....[TO GET THINGS DONE..].

I'm thinking....hey, [liberal coyote] that's how 3rd world lawless crapholes _come about_.....(not having responsible governments).

You don't like titles do you?  _Mr. President, President Trump....Officer Murphy._ 

thank GOD 

 $$$$$$$ was cut off for the terrorists.  how dare this country send millions of $$$$ to terrorists.  we're sick of it.

why not make a *gofundme* page for them  

 ...or ...GO cut a personal check and send it to them coyote.

God help America & *"bypass Government"* minds like yours - and your disrespect of ....authority.


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## MJB12741 (Sep 19, 2018)

member said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Yes, sick of it indeed.  Just look what our financial aid to Palestinians has done to keep this conflict going thus causing endless deaths to Palestinians by Israel's response to Palestinian terrorist attacks.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It isn’t the presence of Jews.  It is the building of new settlements in contested areas and moving people into them.
> ...


Please explain to me whyonly Jewish settlements are legal.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It isn’t the presence of Jews.  It is the building of new settlements in contested areas and moving people into them.
> ...



The territory wasn't contested in the 30's and Israel didn't exist.  I would  not consider any of them "settlers".


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > These cuts aren’t to funds going to or through PA.  They are funds going to organizations that help the Palestinian people.
> ...



I don't care what Muslim countries do.  I care what WE do.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Please explain to me whyonly Jewish settlements are legal.



False premise.  Some Jewish settlements are legal, some are not.  Some Arab settlements are legal, some are not.  According to Israeli law.

According to the international community ALL Arab settlements are "legal" and ALL Jewish settlements are "illegal".

See the problem now?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> Maybe there is just another way of looking at this.
> ...



I don't think that is the only reason.  Why are Arab Israeli citizens excluded from participation in settlement building?


----------



## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Please explain to me whyonly Jewish settlements are legal.
> ...



How many new legal Arab settlements have been build in Area C?


----------



## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Go ahead and lebel this an "appeal to emotion" but if you do...keep in mind, so is the article on the Israeli who was killed by a terrorist.  

Community | Trump’s Aid Cuts Hurt The Most Vulnerable Palestinian Children
Despite the efforts to keep the chiidren’s spirits up, these days their parents and staffers at the facility are deeply worried. They fear that US President Donald Trump’s decision announced on September 8 to *terminate US$25 million in American assistance to Augusta Victoria and five other East Jerusalem hospitals *will impact directly on the children’s care.

“This decision is wrong. Where will the help for the children come from?” asked Ibtisam Hababa, noting that Ramallah hospitals are not an option since they do not offer dialysis for small children. “I’m worried for my daughter. She needs to get better, she needs her treatment.”

Trump advisor and son-in-law Jared Kushner is depicting the cuts as being aimed at the Palestinian leadership, which refuses to accept the US as a mediator in peace talks. He said in an interview with the New York Times last week that Palestinian leaders deserved to lose the aid after vilifying the administration over its recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

In Augusta Victoria, however, *it becomes apparent that Trump and Kushner are actually hitting the most vulnerable individuals imaginable: those already grappling with life-threatening disease.*


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## RoccoR (Sep 19, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians 
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, your question is a crafty way of say of presenting a loaded question.



P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Btw, cessation of hostilities is also a universal condition to any peace talks.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Your question about the cessation of hostilities is typically used to trick pro-Isreali responder into implying something that the pro-Israeli never intended to imply.


			
				Article 43 • Hague Regulation of 1907 said:
			
		

> The authority of the legitimate power having, in fact, passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.
> *SOURCE*:  Military Authority over the Territory of the Hostile State (MAotHS)



*(ANSWER)*

Israel will cease operations when the objective is accomplished:  The restoration,  "as far as possible, public order and safety"  → over the areas now riddled with lawless Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Legal according to whom?  The EU funds new and expanding Arab settlements in Area C.  According to them any building Arabs do in Area C is legal.  While any building Jews do in Area C is illegal.  (Which is contrary to the Oslo Accords, of course).

What is the objective standard here?  Because Arabs should be encouraged to build and Jews should be forbidden to build is NOT objective.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Go ahead and lebel this an "appeal to emotion" but if you do...keep in mind, so is the article on the Israeli who was killed by a terrorist.
> 
> Community | Trump’s Aid Cuts Hurt The Most Vulnerable Palestinian Children
> Despite the efforts to keep the chiidren’s spirits up, these days their parents and staffers at the facility are deeply worried. They fear that US President Donald Trump’s decision announced on September 8 to *terminate US$25 million in American assistance to Augusta Victoria and five other East Jerusalem hospitals *will impact directly on the children’s care.
> ...




Perhaps the government of Palestine should be responsible for providing health care to its own citizens.  Rather than leaving it to churches and foreign aide.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead and lebel this an "appeal to emotion" but if you do...keep in mind, so is the article on the Israeli who was killed by a terrorist.
> ...


So impoverished countries dont deserve foreign aid?  Or just the Palestinians?


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> So impoverished countries dont deserve foreign aid?  Or just the Palestinians?



Perhaps they could take the needed funds out of their terrorism budget.  Just a suggestion.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



How many and what new Arab settlements?  When did it start?

Is it in response to Israel's continued settlement activity?

How many legal Arab settlements got built prior to that?  How many now?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > So impoverished countries dont deserve foreign aid?  Or just the Palestinians?
> ...



Perhaps they do.  You are painting with an awfully broad brush here in aneffort to portraythem as deserving these cuts.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote

Look, I'm not going to fall for the "but Palestine is so impoverished" fallacy.  Palestine is solidly middle class with respect to wealth when compared to other countries -- pretty much smack dab in the middle.  In addition, Palestine already receives FAR more aide than the truly impoverished countries, $396 annually per person, as compared to say, Yemen, which receives only $28.

If Palestine is so incapable of providing for its citizens with a solid middle class wealth and THAT much foreign aide, and can provide $350 million annually in pay-outs to terrorists, but can't fund health care for its citizens -- it has NO BUSINESS trying to be a State.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I'll ask again.  Third or fourth time now.  What is the objective standard?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 19, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  Coyote, et al,

Yes, there are a number of reasons for this decision.



Coyote said:


> I don't think that is the only reason.  Why are Arab Israeli citizens excluded from participation in settlement building?


*(COMMENT)*

Well, it is really that Arab Israeli citizens are withheld for fear that the Arab Palestinians will single them out for personal attacks and make them objects of terrorist targeting.

Israel is trying to treat the general Arab populations _(Druze, Nomads, Muslim, Christians and the unaffiliated)_ as equal to their counterpart cultural citizens in Israel.  But they do not want to place the Arab Israelis in the awkward position of placing them at any additional risk or appear to encourage voluntary relocation (separating them out from Israelis in sovereign territory.  There are emotional, moral, practical, protections and cultural reasons and considerations why the Israeli Government grants the greatest flexibility, options, and alternatives when dealing with this fragile protected segment of the population.

The non-Jewish Israelis do not want to create the perception that these citizens are being forced to do something this non-Jewish segment of the community _(Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim), Christian 2.1%, other 3.2%)_.  Israel actually wants these segment to flourish and become strong branches with the greater population.

Nowhere is this benevolent policy becoming more and more difficult to enact as with the near quarter-million Bedouins population (Negev Nomads) that live in a few dozens (plus) which are fighting to preserve their heritage in the 21st Century Israel. 

It appears that Israel still has some learning to do on the approach to these unique cultural and tribal questions.  Certainly, the Israelis have found that the oneshoe fits all is impractical and unworkable.  They are still learning; yet making enormous progress in some areas. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

I would like to add something else concerning foreign aide, especially aide for medical needs.  Its not directly related to this thread or topic, but I think its important.  

As a global community, how SHOULD we decide where to put our resources?  What should we base it on?  

There are 10s of millions of people in the world without adequate access to pain medications -- including pediatric patients, terminal cancer patients and end-stage HIV.

5.5 million children under 5 die annually from preventable illnesses.

Nearly a million neonates die annually in India from lack of pre- and post-natal care.

900 million people in the world do not receive adequate nutrition.  

There are countries in the world with on-going civil wars where the population hasn't access to clean water, food, shelter.  Where children are turned into soldiers.  Where women are raped or forced into sex slavery.  

Where should our money go?  What should the priorities be?


Palestinians have historically received disproportionate funding.  It is funding which is out of line with their needs and the resources available to them as compared to other nations with higher needs and fewer resources.


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## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

No Jew was permitted to live in Judea and Samaria during the Jordanian occupation.

Looking back:  the right of the Jewish people to settle in the WHOLE   of the Mandated territory. Article 6 of the Mandate encouraged "close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands not required for public use."


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## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

In April 1982, over 170 military installations and early warning stations were dismantled and the settlements were forcibly evacuated by the Israeli army, overseen by General Ariel Sharon. By that time, Sinai was home to 7,000 Israeli residents. Most of the settlements were demolished. Neot Sinai, with its cultivated gardens, was given intact to Egypt. In 1988, the resort town of Taba, developed by the Israelis, was handed over to Egypt as well.

Jews had long lived in Gaza before World War I. Kfar Darom was a Jewish-owned citrus grove in the 1930's.

The Jewish National Fund bought the land from its Jewish owner and established a kibbutz there in the 1940's. During the 1948 war, Kfar Darom came under Egyptian attack and siege but managed to serve as a stronghold against the Egyptian onslaught before being evacuated. In 1970, Kfar Darom was re-established on the same site, supported by Israel’s Labor government. Twenty more settlements were established in the Gaza Strip in the late 70's, 80's and 90's. Some of the families evacuated from the Sinai settlements were resettled in Gaza settlements, such as Elei Sinai. The settlers transformed the Gaza dunes into lush oases of green. The presence of such settlements near squalid Palestinian refugee camps sparked envy and resentment among the local Arab populace.

In 2005, the Israeli government forcibly evacuated and dismantled the Gaza Strip settlements, together with 4 additional settlements in Northern Samaria, and withdrew its military presence from Gaza. The thriving greenhouses that the settlers had built and maintained were transferred to the Palestinians.

Settlements


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Not true.. Did you ever visit the sites for the brand new "structured community" of Rawabi?  That's Palestinian pressure to build out as well. And they got Israeli cooperation for water/power by being persistent and bringing in the first thousand new buyers. Better community living than in 75% of America.. 

Hotels, Convention Center, Shopping, Libraries, Schools. BRAND NEW Pali Production. Watch it. Learn how developed and thriving Palestinian life in Israel truely is. They are NOT ALL on WELFARE.


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## Mindful (Sep 19, 2018)

During one of many visits to Israel, we drove through a village constructed for  Arabs, compete with mosque and minaret, by the Israelis.


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## rylah (Sep 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Because this is the same rhetoric that was used to ethnically cleanse
all of Middle Eastern Jews from Arab countries.

Also it's the same racist rhetoric that was used by Kant to justify discrimination against Jews in Europe,
the only difference is that in the same 18th century racism, he referred to Jews as "Palestinians among us".


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

The fundamental difference is between national sovereignty and total ethnic homogeneity.  Israel understands she can have sovereignty, and safety for the Jewish people, and preserve her culture and language and traditions without requiring complete ethnic homogeneity.  

Palestine requires the latter as a pre-condition to the former and even when that is granted is not satisfied.


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## rylah (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The OP suggestion was addressed specifically in the beginning with practical questions,
all of them are yet to be answered...Probably because someone decided to deflect
this thread to the usual "but Israel" excuses.

Can we bring this thread back to its' topic Coyote, what was that?


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## rylah (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > The United States is by far the largest donor of financial aid to the Palestinians, with this assistance touching nearly every aspect of life in the Palestinian Authority. But US President Donald Trump threatened on Tuesday to end this aid to the Palestinians, angered by Ramallah’s refusal to cooperate with the US’s efforts to jump-start Israeli-Palestinian peace talks after he declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in December.
> ...



I think You don't get the full picture, the region is wide, Israel is of most importance, Hamas and PA are not,
there's something wider weaving out that is bigger than an agreement with this non-functional govt.

I've realized that any agreement can come only as a result of normalization with the wider Arab world, not the other way around. In that context reconstruction of Palestinian aid might have a bigger focus on Arab involvement - both governmentally and investment wise.* Coordinated *with the US and put *under concrete time frames* it can achieve significant goals, otherwise it's 40 horses pulling one carriage each to a different direction.
Such* reconstruction of aid* leading to time- efficient involvement and regional normalization could, in my own perspective, go more hand in hand with the US interests of *security *and *regional cooperation*.


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## RoccoR (Sep 19, 2018)

※→  Shusha, et al,

I think I agree with our friend "Shusha."

Foreign Aid _(the transfer of capital, goods, or services)_ is suppose to be a gesture of goodwill from one friendly nation to another friendly nation.  We say "allies." 



Shusha said:


> Where should our money go?  What should the priorities be?
> .


*(COMMENT)*

Let's face it...  The Arab Palestinians are NOT friends with America.  

I don't know exactly how we got into trouble here, but I find it odd that there are so many Arab Palestinians in America when the PEW Survey Report indicates that 75% of them consider America an "enemy."

I don't think that America should be giving any type of aid to the Arab Palestinian and their so-called state.  And I don't think that America should allow a self-declared enemy to tell us who we should or should not give aid to. 

America, over the period since the Oslo Accord (1993), was given the Palestinians about $5.2B in aid.  My position is that we should NOT be entangled and obligated to provide an annual stipend to an enemy state.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## member (Sep 19, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...






 *"Can we bring this thread back to its' topic Coyote, what was that?"*




It’s about PRESIDENT TRUMP and his  

 personal “vendetta” -------- against:  Sick Palestinian patients in Jerusalem hospitals…


when they were going over 

 the LIST of

"WASTED AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS" - and where best to CUT the shit out of it............



i BET THE PRESIDENT thought fuck the patients..........cutting funds had nothing to do with the loot being used for kite bombs and other blow-up toys for terrorists……… (and 3-piece suits for...abbfabio)......

we should just...bypass the government and ....have coyote write a check.....


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Yes, I had heard about it, a fantastic enterprise and a real success, thanks for pointing it out   However they did not need Israeli permission to build it, it is entirely in Area C.


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## MJB12741 (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Well I sure as hell care what Muslim countries do when it is detrimental to our country or our American allied countries.  Is it really true didn't you didn't care about 911???


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




It is entirely in Area A. 

But it's a useful Freudian slip. What is the objective standard for permission to build in Area C?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is extremely important to understand, via the Oslo Accords, why the EU needs permission from Israel to build on area C.

Both Jews and Arabs need permits to build in Area C.
----

MOST OF geographic Judea and Samaria (60% of the area) is designated Area C, over which Israel has exclusive jurisdiction both administratively and in security matters.

Area C’s distinguishing characteristic is that it is sparsely populated – by Arab or Jewish inhabitants.

Most of this area lies east of the populated mountain spine from Jenin in the north to Hebron in the south. The eastern slopes descending and including the Jordan Valley are characterized by harsh climate and low to no rainfall. The Jordan Valley, the South Hebron Hills and the area in the vicinity of Ma’aleh Adumim – from east of Mount Scopus to Jericho – are by far the most politically contested spaces in Area C, due to both Jewish settlement and Israeli security concerns.

Knowing your ABC


The PA never cared, and still does, to follow the Oslo Accords, be it by ending the incitement against Israel and Jews with the education in schools and media, or via respecting Area C or Israel.

As I put it before, they are using the Hudna, which is the waiting period from the time they lose a battle until they win the war, as it was during the time of Mohammad.  And will continue to attempt to take control of as much land as they can without ever having to negotiate for it.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> ※→  Shusha, et al,
> 
> I think I agree with our friend "Shusha."
> 
> ...


Why should we give it to Israel?  They spie on us.  They attempted to sabatoge the Iran deal until they finally had to be shut out.  Why are we giving them aid?

Aid serves multiple purposes.   We give aid to Egypt, who’s government ranks high in terms of human rights and civil rights abuses.  We give aid to Myanmar, despite the horrific actions of its government...Rights Group: Blocking Aid to Displaced Myanmar Civilians a War Crime

We give humanitarian aid to Yemen, another country in crisis being bombarded by our ally while we look the other way.  Yemen is not likely pro American.  

Aid in these regions not only provides medical assistance but also education, especially for girls.  You want to change minds?  That is where you start.  The real tragedy is you are giving Hamas an elevated platform to step in and take over.  How good is that going to be?

I get that many in this forum despise Palestinians, it was never more evident than in this thread.

I guess we pick and choose and since Trump and Netanyahu are best buds the Palestinians will be the clear losers.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


My mistake, it isn’t Area C it is Area A.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



*AND -- they did not need USAID to get it done either.* That's the point. What Palestinians need MORE than US aid is to have markets and trade with the wider Arab region, like Rylah just suggested. In the article I've written, the Palis live in the smack dab middle of those ancient trade routes that Western subjugation took from them. By connecting Jordan and Egypt with the Palestine Trade Route concept I'm pitching, Palis would HAVE that option to market to and from the neighbors. They could become a major warehousing and distribution center for the entire Middle East. And that business doesn't require arable land. It can hosted literally on land not fit for other uses.

Right now, I discovered that 80% of Palestinian exports go to Israel and total trade is 55% with Israel. It's a situation that Israel has become a bit too comfortable with. A captive sub-market that they can micromanage. It's in the interests of EVERYONE in that neighborhood to connect and prosper and renegotiate their trade dealings.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ※→  Shusha, et al,
> ...


One does not look at whether the country is enemy or friend.

That is not how the Red Cross or any other organization works when it comes to help the population which ends up suffering because of wars, disasters, etc

There are different reasons why each country is given aid.
With Egypt it was negotiated during the Peace Treaty.

We despise terrorists, not the victim population which is turned to helping them because of their ideology or because they do not know any better.

And there are plenty of Palestinians who are pro Israel, just as there are pro Israel Arabs in every Arab country and also in Iranians in Iran.

If you insist in painting it as a black and white issue, then there are no solutions.

Israel made a huge mistake with the Oslo Accords which the Arabs took advantage of to return and try to take away the rest of the Mandate from the Jewish people.

The Arabs under the Arab League and Arab leaders are the losers.  They have no power and are fed on a daily basis endless hatred for Israel and the Jews.

That is how one makes a loser.  By repeating lie after lie, in order to try to achieve a goal.

The Arab League and Arab leaders goal is the destruction of Israel.

Period.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Wait what?!  THIS thread is evidence that we 'despise Palestinians"?  

Seriously?!  

This thread has had none but the most educated and thoughtful posters participating. It has been largely free from the nasty one liners and personal attacks and ugliness which can occur on other threads. 

The pro-Israel side on this thread is represented by Rocco, rylah, Sixties and myself. You think our bottom line is that we "despise Palestinians "?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Did you read the OP article?  Because it suggested using the aid in more innovative ways to make some of those types of changes.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...






Shusha said:


> Wait what?!  THIS thread is evidence that we 'despise Palestinians"?
> 
> Seriously?!
> 
> ...



It frankly sounds like you are celebrating the cutting off humanitarian aid which affects the must vulnerable among the Palestinians.  You despise terrorists so you are willing to punish the entire population as a result.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Exactly!  The part I bolded I totally agree with.  So why then are peop,e supporting cutting Palestinian aid because they aren’t pro American?


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Willing to "punish" the entire population? Not even in the slightest. 

Only want the proper people - their own government - to take responsibility for them. The HORROR. 

On the other hand, I don't see why anyone would support a government who celebrates the murder of Jews with lifelong wages. It's disgusting.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 19, 2018)

Mindful said:


> No Jew was permitted to live in Judea and Samaria during the Jordanian occupation.
> 
> Looking back:  the right of the Jewish people to settle in the WHOLE   of the Mandated territory. Article 6 of the Mandate encouraged "close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands not required for public use."


That was for Palestinian citizens.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



Who is really affected by cutting humanitarian aid?  Much of what is cut doesn’t go through the government.  If the governments alone should be taking care of their people why are we giving any aid to anyone?  Or does this only apply to the Palestinians?

And who is helped?  Hamas.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Area C has another distinguishing characteristic.  Most of the resources.

Area C (West Bank) - Wikipedia
Area C is richly endowed with natural resources, *including most of Palestinian agricultural and grazing land. *It is the only contiguous part of the West Bank, thus all large scale projects involve work in Area C.[1]:

No wonder Israel wants it...61% of the West Bank.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Like I said USAID sucks at innovation and locally targeted aid. It's the NGOs that can make those changes and get the funds more directly targeted. USAID cannot BYPASS the PA.. That's a diplomatic no-no.. It would undermine the authority that they THINK they have.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> I would like to add something else concerning foreign aide, especially aide for medical needs.  Its not directly related to this thread or topic, but I think its important.
> 
> As a global community, how SHOULD we decide where to put our resources?  What should we base it on?
> 
> ...


US aid to Israel helps Israel to put the Palestinians in the position where they need aid. That puts the problem in our lap.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 19, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


What is racist about a Jew living in a Palestinian village?


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to add something else concerning foreign aide, especially aide for medical needs.  Its not directly related to this thread or topic, but I think its important.
> ...




There are like 90 countries worse off than them who are more in need of aide. They have been disproportionately given aide for decades. Time for them to grow up and be a State.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


As usual, you do not have any idea IF the population is being affected.

Any more affected by the US aid cut, or Belgium's aid cut, then they usually are by the PA's cuts to any and all of their necessities.  Or Hamas, which is in charge of who gets what in Gaza.

I hate to tell you this, although in this case with Gaza and the PA it is not true.

In order to defeat the Nazis, the Allies cut EVERYTHING they could. Which of course means that the German population which had no way to get what the wealthy Nazis were getting, suffered the most.

In this case, the Palestinians are NOT suffering.  Israel makes sure of it by allowing Palestinians to work in Israel, get education in Israel, get health care in Israel.  Health care and necessities continues to be delivered to the people in Gaza.

Thank you for turning this into some Greek Tragedy, which it is not.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Something like 85% of the Palestinians live in their major cities and the surrounding land. Not in that 61% of the voids that is Area C. 

"Richly endowed" is relative. Because the bulk of that land will only support subsistence farming and grazing. MAJOR portions of Area C are steep slopes and deep winding canyons that can only support villages and farming in the tiny valley portions. On a map -- From Jericho to Jerusalem is only about 8 miles as the crow flies. But it goes from 700 ft below Sea level to 3000 ft above in that span. And that's the topography is all along the Eastern border of Area C.. Healthy people could HIKE the winding 15 mile (or so) Jericho-Jerusalem trail in a day.  The scale of things on a map is really deceptive.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Why Palestine?

Why not Eritrea?  Yemen?  Congo?  

I'm going to ask the still unanswered question -- what is the OBJECTIVE standard?

When SHOUKD a country be required to look after its own citizens?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


How manyPalestinians are allowed into Israel?  How long does it take to get healthcare there...if they can...when they should be able to get it locally.  Are you saying all the Palestinian children will now be bussed into Israel for schooling?  Only the wealthiest will suffer?  I don’t think those getting medical care in that hospital who’s funding is cut are the wealthiest do you?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I would like to remind you, Coyote, that the Jews were expelled from their Jewish homes and lands in 1948 from Judea and Samaria.
Much of what is being called Palestinian Arab, actually belonged to Palestinian Jews.

ALL of Judea and Samaria was ethnically cleansed of Jews.
As was ALL of TranJordan in 1925 and ALL Jews from Gaza in 1920.

ALL of the Jewish properties, lands and Agriculture was taken by force by the Arabs who in 1964 started calling them Palestinian Lands.

But, as we pro Israel posters know, the Arabs would like to see the whole Mandate given to them, Balfour Declaration and Oslo Accords be darned.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


When they can.  But we don’t even have a country here to talk about do we?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Then why is Israel getting aid?


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




THe better question is why Israel should be obligated to provide health care to citizens of a foreign nation. And why the Palestinians are not able to get that health care locally from their own state. 

If Israel has a better health care system than say, Pakistan, is Israel obliged to grant health care to Indian nationals?

I mean, Israel often does that very thing. But should they be obliged?


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Most of the aid that Israel gets is Military. And LARGELY it's DEFENSIVE military assistance. For instance the "Iron Dome" is a JOINT development anti-missile system that is the ONLY REASON -- Israel has not COMPLETELY leveled Gaza in the last few encounters. 

Things like that INCREASE the peace and allow Israel to take more restrained responses when attacked. Without Iron Dome --- they probably would have re-occupied Gaza by now..


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You ask fantastic questions you have not bothered to look into for the answers.

Thousands work in Israel and in Jewish towns in Area C.
Thousands come into Israel for health care. 180,000 this year so far.

180,000 Palestinians Treated in Israeli Hospitals This Year

You do not seem to know this but even the Palestinian leaders seek health care in Israel......and they DO GET IT.

Why haven't the leaders built as great a health care in the PA territories as the Israelis have done in Israel with the Billions of dollars they have received?  That is the question.

Why should Palestinian children be bussed into Israel for schooling? 

Are Canadian Children, or Mexican ones bussed into the USA for schooling?

Who said that the wealthiest will suffer?  (Do you even know what you are saying?)  Since when do wealthy people suffer from lack of aid, when the rest of the population is the one which does.  Be it the 1929 Depression, any war, etc, etc.?


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



What is the objective standard for "they can"?  

Why not Eritrea?  Yemen?  Congo?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


From 1937 till now, the Palestinian Arabs have been offered their own State, alongside that of Israel.

As you know, they have refused all offers.  Blame it on the Arab League and the Arab leaders.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I actually don’t disagree with the aid we give Israel.  I just find it ironic that some seem gleeful that the Palestinians are being stripped of aid that largely covers medical care, education, things like programs to improve cooperation between IsraeliS and Palestinians at community levels (in fact the money for that program was shifted to an internal Israeli program).

I can’t help but notice what seems like a celebratory attitude over this.  Maybe I am to cynical, but these things usually hurt the people more than the leaders.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Have we cut off aid to those three countries?


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## Indeependent (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I guess you’re too naive to miss that fact that aid for the Palis *never* goes toward its intended purpose.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Are Canadian Children, or Mexican ones bussed into the USA for schooling?


 
Lol. Better to ask why Americans who can't afford health care aren't bussed to Canada.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I am not sure you can have a completely objective standard because each situation is unique and affected by different factors.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The Palestinians get FOURTEEN TIMES as much as aide as the Yemenis do per capita. And the Palestinians have FAR more resources. 

Why should the Palestinians get many times the aide as a middle class country than the poorest most destitute countries get?

Seriously.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Are Canadian Children, or Mexican ones bussed into the USA for schooling?
> ...


Or Mexico, and many do go there for "cheaper" treatments.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Delineating those factors would be an excellent start. Give it a try.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


If any one of us sounds happy about any aid being cut is because, as we have said before, that aid does not end up in the hands of the population which needs it, but in the hands of the leaders who even dare to sell it to the population.

Which is a major factor as to why the Arab/Muslims countries have stopped offering aid to the people in Gaza or the PA.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 19, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> ※→  Shusha, et al,
> 
> I think I agree with our friend "Shusha."
> 
> ...





RoccoR said:


> I don't know exactly how we got into trouble here, but I find it odd that there are so many Arab Palestinians in America when the PEW Survey Report indicates that 75% of them consider America an "enemy."


Well... the bombs dropped on Gaza are made in the US. Missiles fired into Palestinian homes are made in the US. Bulldozers that are used to destroy Palestinian homes and farmland are made in the US. And on and on.

Don't think this goes unnoticed.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Are Canadian Children, or Mexican ones bussed into the USA for schooling?
> ...


She said the Palestinians aren’t going to suffer, they can get an education in Israel.  One of the primary things aid pays for is children’s education.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

None of us are happy to see people suffer!  FFS. Is that the impression I've given over the past two years on this board?!  

We only want the proper people to be responsible for, you know, THEIR people.  Why is that so freaking difficult for the Palestinians?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Why should Israel?


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Your own OP article focuses almost exclusively on benefits to Gaza.. Read it again. I was wrong about USAID. The cuts are not out of the USAID foreign aid budget. They are reductions to programs that keep GAZA alive thru the UN relief agencies. It's all about pressuring HAMAS and Gaza IS currently a basket case. 

This is not at all about the West Bank Palestinians. They STILL get USAID thru the PA. The PA just refuses to SHARE THAT AID with Hamas in the West Bank. Let's back up and realize what the game REALLY IS before you launch off on how this HURTS anything. 

Hamas is shut off by the Palestinian Authority. You do realize that --- right? That's why the article focuses on benefits to Gaza thru the UN relief agencies.


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## Indeependent (Sep 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ※→  Shusha, et al,
> ...


Of course it’s noticed...the entire world wants Israel to destroy Gaza or they’d get Gazans to behave.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ※→  Shusha, et al,
> ...


Also not going unnoticed:

The Made in Iran rockets, etc, etc, etc  fired from Gaza into Israel.
Thousands of them for the past 13 years.

Which, by the way have destroyed quite a few buildings and killed 
many Israelis and Residents with working visas.

Stop the war on Israel, going on since 1920, and no more aid, to either side will be needed.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> None of us are happy to see people suffer!  FFS. Is that the impression I've given over the past two years on this board?!
> 
> We only want the proper people to be responsible for, you know, THEIR people.  Why is that so freaking difficult for the Palestinians?


Then again...why is that standard not applied across the board?  

No I don’t think you are happy to see people suffer but they clearly will suffer.


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## Indeependent (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > None of us are happy to see people suffer!  FFS. Is that the impression I've given over the past two years on this board?!
> ...


Act like an asshole and you suffer.
Happens in American slums everyday.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


My mistake, I thought it was all the Palestinians.

But the aid cuts are to all the Palestinians.


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## Indeependent (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I wonder why.
Why don’t you send them money.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Why 


Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Why don’t you quit trolling?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Who said that the Palestinians aren't going to suffer?

The Arabs (Wealthy and poor) have been made to suffer since 1920 when Jihad Husseini chose war on the Jews, if they did not help on the way, or suffered the reaction of attempting to destroy Israel in 1948 or any successive wars the Arab leaders imposed on them.

Arab children do not come from Areas A and B into Israel for education.
It is for University students, mainly.

It is up to the  Arab Israelis to make sure that their children do get an education which is not focused on destroying Israel.  Which is mainly what they have always gotten, until recently in very few of the schools in Israel.

Why should the world pay citizens or residents of Israel to be taught to hate Jews and that the land is theirs, or that the country they live in should be destroyed, and they should become the way in the future to do it?


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > None of us are happy to see people suffer!  FFS. Is that the impression I've given over the past two years on this board?!
> ...



Oh see a minute ago I thought you used the word gleeful. 

Again, why can't the government of Palestine be required to provide health care to its own people? The US is. Even though people in the US suffer horrifically compared to Canadians with respect to health care. 

Is it Canada's responsibility to provide health care to US citizens?


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

From the OP cite ---

_*Second, U.S. assistance should be used to substantially expand trade between Palestinians and Israelis. Consider the northern West Bank city of Jenin: Israel decided 15 years ago that if it opened a crossing point so Israeli Arabs could shop in the West Bank, it would be a stabilizer, even though the Second Intifada rebellion was ongoing. That calculation was successful; increased Palestinian trade has reduced unemployment in the northern West Bank from reportedly 50 percent in 2003 to below 20 percent now. *_

This is a patently BAD idea as I explained above about the Pali economy being held hostage by Israel in terms of exports and other trade partners. Stupidity like this just INCREASES their captivity...

Did I ever post about "The mushroom compost dust-up"?  Short version is, Pali entrepreneurs start a very aggressive mushroom culturing business. They start to succeed wildly. Israeli mushroom farmers get angry. Because the West Bank is no longer buying their mushrooms. Israel cuts off the supply of the compost that these folks were importing for their mushroom bedding on the grounds of national security.. They classify the compost as a type of fertilizer that is rationed for import to West Bank.

Composting is NOT explosive high concentration fertilizer that can be used in bombs. But this is the kind of manipulation that Israel can do BECAUSE they smother the Palestinian ability to trade wider in the region. NO plan should include making that relationship more unnatural and disturbing...


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## Indeependent (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Why
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> ...


*You* are trolling.
Every Thread you create on this situation is a Troll.
You have all the facts at your *fingertips* but still have an overwhelming amount of pity for a group of people who promote murder on a societal basis.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



All governments should provide it.  Why is Palestine singled out for special retribution?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Why
> ...


Do tell.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> From the OP cite ---
> 
> _*Second, U.S. assistance should be used to substantially expand trade between Palestinians and Israelis. Consider the northern West Bank city of Jenin: Israel decided 15 years ago that if it opened a crossing point so Israeli Arabs could shop in the West Bank, it would be a stabilizer, even though the Second Intifada rebellion was ongoing. That calculation was successful; increased Palestinian trade has reduced unemployment in the northern West Bank from reportedly 50 percent in 2003 to below 20 percent now. *_
> 
> ...



I had no idea about the mushroom dust up...interesting story!  I do agree, they need to pursue trade with multiple partners, it is dangerous to rely on just one.


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## Indeependent (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


So you have the Internet and like someone suffering from autism you only look at one piece of information at a time.
It’s been beyond me for the last several years how you can’t seem to study the situation from 600AD and on and understand what’s going on at the present based on *context*.

I bet you blame Israel for the tunnels built by Hamas.


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




It's not. Quite the contrary. Palestine has received a disproportionately large amount of aide. Scaling it back to more normal proportions commensurate with its resources and expectations is not retribution.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Who is saying Israel is obliged?  They aren’t.  That they do so is a good thing but no one is saying they have to.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Here is a good article from the LA Times on the situation with the Palestinians:

Palestinians look to Arab governments for support, but the response is tepid


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Is it scaled back...?  Or cut?

Just as an FYI...Foreign aid by country: Who is getting the most — and how much? - Concern

Top ten countries receiving foreign aid...divided to show humanitarian and military portions...Palestinian aid doesn’t even make the list.  Is it really so disproportionate?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


How interesting.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



UNWRA relief and aid is focused almost EXCLUSIVELY on the embargoed Gaza Strip. I don't think much at all goes to the West Bank Palis. That's WHY --- we should focus this discussion realizing that the pressure is intended to fall almost EXCLUSIVELY on the Hamas leadership in Gaza. 

Trump Admin is making the same mistake that the past 3 Presidents have. *They are attempting to FORCE a unity national govt to exist. That's a foolish approach that only get phony peace accords. *

*Palis need to organize ON THEIR TERMS.* And without the hugely powerful Federal level administration where the Arab biases and fears of cronyism are justified. 

Local tribal, familial governance for each major Pali area. Then a WEAKER federal level that doesn't get to a strong man dictatorship like other Arab nation states. The Federal level is diplomacy, currency, judicial review, immigration and customs, etc....


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

[ What have the Palestinians and UNWRA have done with 11 Billion dollars since 1950? ]

U.S. aid to the Palestinians remains subject to several legislative conditions and robust oversight from Congress. Bilateral assistance since 1994 has totaled more than $5 billion, and contributions to UNRWA since 1950 have totaled more than $6 billion.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Trump is attempting to force Abbas and the PLO to come to the table to negotiate.

It has not worked before, it will not work now.  As said previously, they will die continuing their Hudna until they "achieve" their goal.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Maybe the Palestinians did not make the list because they are "not" a country?


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Ok...let’s look at aid.  And some of the countries you mentioned.

Tracking Billions of Dollars in Foreign Aid in One Map

Israel 3.1B in economic aid
Congo 453M
West Bank/Gaza 417M
Yemen 305M


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## Shusha (Sep 19, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




It is when you consider total international aid per capita. 

$396 a year is you are Palestinian. And $28 a year if you are Yemeni. Eritrea is even worse.


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## Coyote (Sep 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


They are listed as West Bank.


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## RoccoR (Sep 19, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  Coyote, et al,

Like I said earlier, most productive aid is given to allies, to assist them in their human development projects.   As you can see for yourself, reading the 2018 Human Development Index _(and its components)_, Israel ranks 22 out of the 189 countries ranked.  It is the than any of the Middle Eastern States, any State in the Arab League or Persian Gulf.  It ranks higher than any African State, any State in Central Asia, and South East Asia.

Israel must be doing something right if the next highest ranked Arab League _(including any State in the  MIddle East and Persian Gulf, Africa, Central Asia, and South East Asia )_ is #34 United Arab Emirates _(UAE only independence in 1971, has witnessed an economic growth of 231 times to 1.45 trillion AED in 2013.)_, closely followed by #37 Qatar,*  #39 Saudi Arabia  and  #48 Oman.

The State of Palestine ranked 119th; just above Iraq.

One observation to make is:  You don't have to be among the richest nations of the world to direct your resources properly and develop in all the ways that Human Development benefits the citizenry.



 
✪  Excerpt of World Atlas Chart
On the basis of GDP (nominal) per capita, Qatar is the richest country among the 22 member states of the Arab League.​When Israel out ranks all it's _(not so friendly - and then so)_ neighbors, then our aid to Israel is money well spent, and not going down the blackhole.

* Qatar is the richest country in the world with a per capita income of $124,930. Qatar has a well-developed oil exploration industry where the petroleum industry accounts for 70% of its government revenue, 60% of its GDP and 85% of its export earnings.


Coyote said:


> Who is really affected by cutting humanitarian aid?  Much of what is cut doesn’t go through the government.  If the governments alone should be taking care of their people why are we giving any aid to anyone?  Or does this only apply to the Palestinians?
> And who is helped?  Hamas.


*(COMMENT)*

"Human development is about human freedoms. It is about building human capabilities—not just for a few, not even for most, but for everyone."ª  The Arab Palestinians just don't get it.  If they were to divert their attention to reinvesting in their country, instead of fight with police, attacking Israelis, and creating havoc, they could be much better off.  But they have a corrupt and ineffective leadership.  If all these JDs and PhD that make the videos that our friend "P F Tinmore" presents to us ⇒ focused their energies into building the self-governing institutions of tomorrow, the West Bank and Gaza Strip would not be in the shape it is in today. 

*____________________________________*​ª Human development indices and indicators 2018 statistical update

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Sep 19, 2018)

fRE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  P F Tinmore, et al,

You are looking at this all wrong.



P F Tinmore said:


> Well... the bombs dropped on Gaza are made in the US. Missiles fired into Palestinian homes are made in the US. Bulldozers that are used to destroy Palestinian homes and farmland are made in the US. And on and on.
> 
> Don't think this goes unnoticed.


*(COMMENT)*

If the Hostile Arab Palestinians would adopt a peaceful relationship, instead of providing direct support for Jihadism, Fedayeen Activism, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence --- they wouldn't have bombs drop on them, a better credibility and a more receptive ear from the Israelis.  But instead of helping to restore and ensure public order and safety, they do just the oppose.

And then they cry about the outcome.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> fRE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> You are looking at this all wrong.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> If the Hostile Arab Palestinians would adopt a peaceful relationship,


Perhaps if they were not in prison.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > No Jew was permitted to live in Judea and Samaria during the Jordanian occupation.
> ...



Citizens of what? There was no country.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

Mindful said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


The automatic, _ipso facto_, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​


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## Mindful (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



So if there is a nation of Palestine, what's all the fuss about?


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> They aren't? The problem with Jews moving into Palestine is that they always bring Israel with them. If Miko Peled, for example, built a house in Nabi Saleh I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.





rylah said:


> And You don't see how racist is this statement?





P F Tinmore said:


> +No. What is racist about it?





rylah said:


> Because this is the same rhetoric that was used to ethnically cleanse
> all of Middle Eastern Jews from Arab countries.
> 
> Also it's the same racist rhetoric that was used by Kant to justify discrimination against Jews in Europe, the only difference is that in the same 18th century racism, he referred to Jews as "Palestinians among us".





P F Tinmore said:


> What is racist about a Jew living in a Palestinian village?



Because You use a BDS activist who promotes the most vile antisemitic bigotry,
openly and without shame :_"Jews have reputation 4being sleazy thieves"_ as a standard for which Jews are "allowed".

And You still don't understand why BDS is called for its' antisemitism?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

Mindful said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


The Palestinians get a lot of backlash for wanting to go back home.


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## Hollie (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc., won’t take them back.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > They aren't? The problem with Jews moving into Palestine is that they always bring Israel with them. If Miko Peled, for example, built a house in Nabi Saleh I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
> ...


I don't know,  it as taken out of context.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Of course not. They didn't live there.


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## Hollie (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Of course not. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc., won’t take them back.


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## Windparadox (Sep 20, 2018)

`
How much US aid to Palestine is actually used for graft, personal enrichment and continued warfare?


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## Mindful (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Is that some sort of non sequitur?


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> Like I said earlier, most productive aid is given to allies, to assist them in their human development projects.   As you can see for yourself, reading the 2018 Human Development Index _(and its components)_, Israel ranks 22 out of the 189 countries ranked.  It is the than any of the Middle Eastern States, any State in the Arab League or Persian Gulf.  It ranks higher than any African State, any State in Central Asia, and South East Asia.
> ...


Those are all good points and I agree to an extent...except for this.
Among those receiving aid are countries with pretty abysmal human development records, Such as Iraq and Afghanistan, both in the top ten of aid recipients.  Are the Palestinians so much worse?  The DR Congo receives more aid than Palestinians but what a mess they are in terms of human development.  So why are the Palestinians singled out?

Here are the arguments I have seen presented in this thread, boiled down.

1.  Aid is given to countries that are poor and need it.  Palestinians should not get it because their government is corrupt and mismanaged its resources,  yet in the list of top countries receiving aid ... many fall into that category.  Corruption is endemic and one of the huge and frustrating problems with economic aid is and always has been getting to the people rather than simply enriching a few through the government.  

2. Palestinians don’t like us.  They are anti American.  They aren’t are friend.  As Sixties pointed out however, that has never been a requirement for economic or humanitarian aid, and in the list of countries receiving aid are many who aren’t too crazy about Americans.

3. Aid is dependent on how well it is used in human development.  I would argue that hospitals and education, especially of girls is a good use.  In addition it covers a myriad of smaller development programs such as agriculture where the results have been fruitful.  When you add to that the fact that they operate under divided corrupt ineffective leadership (as do other countries getting aid), they have no nation, are subject to Israeli control for electricity and water among other things and have limited ability to form independent ventures with other nations...it is not surprising the results are sketchy.  But again...how are they different then other aid recipients listed.

4.  They get aid way disproportionately per capital than other needy nations.  Why the Pakestinians? But if that is true, Israel ranks right up there receiving economic aid in the billions not millions.  Add to that Israel is economically developed, good economy, good standard of living...using the arguments presented one has to ask why is it getting any?

Each argument singles Palestinians out for things other aid recipients have in common.  So the question really why Palestinians?


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## dannyboys (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...


You want the truth?
The arabs and the jews have been at war with each other for centuries........and you know it.
In the twentieth century the arabs cast their lot with the Germans.............during both world wars........hoping to watch the germans basically exterminate every jew on the planet. (The arabs were too fucking stupid to realise that once the nazis were finished with the jews the nazis were going to exterminate every arab sand-monkey on the planet.)
As you know that's not how things turned out.
When it came time to divide up the spoils from WW11 the world basically told the arabs to go fuck themselves and the Jews were officially given their ancient homeland back.
That's where we are now.
In a hundred years the State of Israel will be even greater and the sand-monkeys will still be eating sand.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

Windparadox said:


> `
> How much US aid to Palestine is actually used for graft, personal enrichment and continued warfare?


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Windparadox said:
> 
> 
> > `
> > How much US aid to Palestine is actually used for graft, personal enrichment and continued warfare?


1.The PA  blocks aid from Gaza because Hamas attempt to murder their PM
Israel and the US is blamed for that.

2. Egypt closes its' borders with Egypt because of Palestinian attacks against their border,
Israel and the US is blamed for that as well.

Nothing in Palestinian policy assumes responsibility on their side to develop cooperation.
Why do they deserve aid if this is another tool to attack the US?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

The Palestinian Governing Authorities Support Terror and Should Be Cut Off


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

In related news, Jordan is upset over the UNRWA cuts, because it doesn't have the money to make up for lost (free) UNRWA services to two million of its citizens. The sob stories aren't exactly sob stories, though:
 Caught in the budget battle are people like Saadi Shalaan. The 57-year-old electrical engineer, a Jordanian citizen whose parents were born near Jerusalem, sends his children to free Unrwa schools in the Wihdat refugee camp where they live. Private schools are too expensive, he said. Public schools are overcrowded and unable to accommodate more students, officials say.Why exactly does he deserve free education for his kids again?
-----------------

The Trump administration said it would make up for the UNRWA shortfall by directly paying governments to build the proper schools it should have built for its own people 70 years ago. The entire reason Jordan didn't do it is because the world was paying the bill for millions of its own citizens. Why should that continue?

UNRWA can fix its budget problems in a minute by admitting there are no "refugees" in the West Bank, Gaza or Jordan, since they are living in "Palestine" or are citizens (with a small number of exceptions of Gazans who went to Jordan in 1967.) The governments in charge should pay for their people's education, not the world. That's 80% of UNRWA's budget right there that should be slashed instantly, with the funds being transferred to the PA and Jordan earmarked to mainstream fake refugees into the mainstream, where they belong.

(full article online)

Another @UNRWA fundraising lie: it is not  "secular." UNRWA schools teach the Quran (and martyrdom.) ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  dannyboys, Coyote, et al,

I don't think that the Arab Palestinians were being singled out; although it is a matter of perceptions.  But if you examine the dates of independence, you will notice that the age of the Muslim Countries involved in the 1948 War of Independence for Israel, they were all less than 50 years old.  Some of them were less than a decade old.

•  Lebanon:  Independence Day, 22 November (1943)
•  Syria:  Independence Day, 17 April (1946)
•  Jordan:  Independence Day, 25 May (1946)
•  Egypt:  Independence 28 February 1922 (from UK)
•  Iraq:  Independence 3 October 1932 (from Mandate under British administration)​


dannyboys said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Each argument singles Palestinians out for things other aid recipients have in common.  So the question really why Palestinians?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Well, the entire Middle East had been involved in coflicts of one sort or another for centuries (yes), but the Hebrew/Jewish leadership had no sovereignty _(no wars to defend sovereignty or religion)_ since about the time of the fall of Masada to the Romans; anywhere in the region.

These principal countries had young and inexperienced leaders in both foreign affairs and the extendion of military force as a tool of diplomacy.  They were apt to make mistakes; especially in the environment of making decisions as a consolidated coalition that discourages creativity alternatives to armed conflict. The factions of the Arab Palestinians to this day still exhibit this problem.  There has been 70 years since the 1948 War of Independence, and the Arab Palestinians still cannot mange to form a government which see peace as a primary objective and the people a primary concern. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




Compared to who?  The Jews?


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## Shusha (Sep 20, 2018)

Do you want to know why I _really_ think Trump cut funding to Palestine?

Its because Trump since day one has wanted to put the little "Israel/Palestine Peace Agreement" as a notch in his political bedpost to make his pp look bigger.  He imagines himself to be a businessman getting the business done and playing hardball is the way to do it, in his narcissistic mind.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> In related news, Jordan is upset over the UNRWA cuts, because it doesn't have the money to make up for lost (free) UNRWA services to two million of its citizens. The sob stories aren't exactly sob stories, though:
> Caught in the budget battle are people like Saadi Shalaan. The 57-year-old electrical engineer, a Jordanian citizen whose parents were born near Jerusalem, sends his children to free Unrwa schools in the Wihdat refugee camp where they live. Private schools are too expensive, he said. Public schools are overcrowded and unable to accommodate more students, officials say.Why exactly does he deserve free education for his kids again?
> -----------------
> 
> ...


Before dissing Jordan it might be useful to remember that they are housing some 1.4 million Syrian refugees on top of Palestinians.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Do you want to know why I _really_ think Trump cut funding to Palestine?
> 
> Its because Trump since day one has wanted to put the little "Israel/Palestine Peace Agreement" as a notch in his political bedpost to make his pp look bigger.  He imagines himself to be a businessman getting the business done and playing hardball is the way to do it, in his narcissistic mind.


Yup...I couldnt agree with you more thete   That is why there is no real strategy or long term plan behind it.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > In related news, Jordan is upset over the UNRWA cuts, because it doesn't have the money to make up for lost (free) UNRWA services to two million of its citizens. The sob stories aren't exactly sob stories, though:
> ...


Could you tell me why you have not mentioned or talked  about the issue the article brings?

What was the article about?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want to know why I _really_ think Trump cut funding to Palestine?
> ...


The original long term was the Oslo Accords.
The ones Arafat and all Arab leaders have scorned at, and  continue to scorn to this day.

It was long term.  It would have been easy to do for anyone in any conflict.

But not for the Muslim Arabs who cannot give up their demands of a Jew free Palestine, the whole Mandate.

So, what long term plan did you have in mind to eventually make the Arab Palestinian leaders come to the table and negotiate a Peace Treaty?


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


...what is there to discuss ?  Whst eas your point on posting this?


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## Mindful (Sep 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



The whole Mandate? Including Jordan?


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

why do you keepca


Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Why do you keep calling them Muslim Arabs?  They include Christians too you know.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Trump thinks he can get the Palestinians to sign away their rights for a few crumbs.

IOW, he knows nothing about the Palestinians.


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Do you want to know why I _really_ think Trump cut funding to Palestine?
> 
> Its because Trump since day one has wanted to put the little "Israel/Palestine Peace Agreement" as a notch in his political bedpost to make his pp look bigger.  He imagines himself to be a businessman getting the business done and playing hardball is the way to do it, in his narcissistic mind.



Shusha I have never seen You make such infantile observations before.
Do You really imagine the situation in such terms?
No plan and vision?

Maybe we don't see the whole picture for a certain purpose...keep it positive.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> why do you keepca
> 
> 
> Sixties Fan said:
> ...


It is part of their propaganda shtick.


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > why do you keepca
> ...



Why do Arabs say "Yahoodi" and translate it into "Israel" for English audiences?
Why does "Palestinian" means anyone BUT Jews?

Everyone knows why... _*"From the River to the Sea"*_ means no Jews allowed, and everyone knows what *"after Sabbath comes Sunday" *means....


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## Shusha (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want to know why I _really_ think Trump cut funding to Palestine?
> ...



Trump IS infantile. 

It's not what I would suggest. But I really do think he thinks he can play that game.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


For some reason you do not think that the refugee issue should be done with, once and for all as it has with all other refugees including the Jewish refugees. 

For some reason Jordan should not be responsible for its Palestinian citizens and not have Unwra continue to be responsible for them.

The Syrians in Jordan and Lebanon Are refugees.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> why do you keepca
> 
> 
> Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Name one Christia Arab leader in charge of making peace decisions for all Palestinians as Arafat and Abbas have been.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


My feelings are this.  All those who first hand became refugees, and were refused return, still are. The rest exist in a stateless limbo.   You can’t just  magically waive a wand and make them non refugees because they are an inconvenient reality.  The burden should be shared between the Arab states hosting them, who should grant them citizenship, Israel, and should a Palestinian state come to fruition, it should take them also.

Why should Jordon alone bear all responsibility for refugees that fled there after the conflict with Israel?  In case you haven’t noticed...Jordan is pretty overwhelmed with refugees.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

What does that have to with the fact they aren’t all Muslim, that the Christians call themselves and identify as Palestinian but you insist on referring to them all as Arab Muslims?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

US: Why should we fund PA hospitals, when Abbas diverts money to pay terrorists?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 20, 2018)

The American government confronts the PA house of cards


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> What does that have to with the fact they aren’t all Muslim, that the Christians call themselves and identify as Palestinian but you insist on referring to them all as Arab Muslims?



Language -Arabic
Nation - Arab
Flag - Pan-Arab representing four Caliphates
Legislation - Sharia.

Questions?


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> US: Why should we fund PA hospitals, when Abbas diverts money to pay terrorists?



Because we fund hospitals for other countries who’s governments mismanage money but for some reason the Palestinians should be singled out for special retribution.

The people who need medical care are the ones who get hurt by this.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What does that have to with the fact they aren’t all Muslim, that the Christians call themselves and identify as Palestinian but you insist on referring to them all as Arab Muslims?
> ...


There are a hell of a lot of Arab speaking Christians.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

U.S. Is Ending Final Source of Aid for Palestinian Civilians

WASHINGTON — As part of its policy to end all aid for Palestinian civilians, the United States is blocking millions of dollars to programs *that build relationships between Israelis and Palestinians*, according to current and former American officials briefed on the change.

The move to prevent Palestinians — including, in many cases, children — from benefiting from the funds squeezes shut the last remaining channel of American aid to Palestinian civilians.

The money had already been budgeted by Congress for allocation in fiscal year 2017, which ends this month. In the past, these designated funds went mostly *to programs that organized people-to-people exchanges between Palestinians and Israelis, often for youth.* Some went to programs for Israeli Jews and Arabs.

But last week, officials from the United States Agency for International Development told congressional aides *that programs that benefit Palestinians alongside Israelis would not receive any new money,* said Tim Rieser, foreign policy aide to Senator Patrick Leahy, Democrat from Vermont. Mr. Leahy established the broader program managed by U.S.A.I.D.

The agency’s officials did not want to cut programs with Palestinians, but had to accommodate a White House that does not want to send American funds to Palestinians, Mr. Rieser said.

As a result, *only programs with Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs will get funding, contrary to the tradition of the funds and intent of Congress.*


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

US ends last of aid to Palestinian civilians, defunding coexistence programs

An aide to Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy, who helped build the USAID program, said the senator “regards the decision to cut off funding for the West Bank and Gaza as a sign that this White House has failed at diplomacy.

“*This is not a partisan view. It’s the view of those who recognize that you don’t advance the cause of peace by cutting off programs that are designed to promote tolerance, understanding and address shared problems.”*

Father Josh Thomas, director of Kids4Peace that connects Israeli and Palestinian children in cross-border programs, said: “We’re concerned that changes in aid would hurt the people most essential to any peace agreement by jeopardizing the momentum of organizations like ours.”

Nicholas Burns, a Harvard professor and former Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, told the Times that “cutting off all American economic and humanitarian assistance to the Palestinian people is mean-spirited and beneath a great nations like ours.


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Is there a constructive point anywhere in that post?
I answered You question directly, these are basic official facts of all current Palestinian governments - officially they are all Arab governments based on Sharia Law.

I fail to see how this insistence on Christians changes anything, enlighten me.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I find it interesting that she constantly refers to Arab Muslims.  Not Palestinians.


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I find it interesting that there's little discussion on the topic.
Why don't You open a thread about it where we can both discuss why Arabs use 'Jews' in interviews but translate it to 'Israelis' in English, while Israelis refer to Palestinians as Arab Muslims.


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> U.S. Is Ending Final Source of Aid for Palestinian Civilians
> 
> WASHINGTON — As part of its policy to end all aid for Palestinian civilians, the United States is blocking millions of dollars to programs *that build relationships between Israelis and Palestinians*, according to current and former American officials briefed on the change.
> 
> ...





Coyote said:


> US ends last of aid to Palestinian civilians, defunding coexistence programs
> 
> An aide to Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy, who helped build the USAID program, said the senator “regards the decision to cut off funding for the West Bank and Gaza as a sign that this White House has failed at diplomacy.
> 
> ...



Can You present any numbers from those cooperation projects?


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Actually most of the discussion is on the topic.


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I didn't see any concrete answers to my questions.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. Is Ending Final Source of Aid for Palestinian Civilians
> ...


I would need to do some research for that.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Which ones?


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


*I see a plan to apply US aid, use of Israeli job-market, economy and campuses.
Q. What are the returns for the investment?

Q. What will ensure that PLO uses the aid for the intended civilian projects,*
*and what are their obligations/time frames upon receiving the aid?*


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



While You're at it please point to actual effectiveness of the cooperation projects, 
what results were achieved.

I think it's a fair point of evaluation.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


How on earth would I know the answers to those?


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



A 600,000,000$ reconstruction plan involving Israel has no time frame?
I'm sold...

Really it's none of my business, until You oblige me into undefined contracts.


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## Coyote (Sep 20, 2018)

This article has a good analysis of aid both negative and positive.

Aid and its limits in Palestine

It notes:

Given that it is generally accepted that one of the main objectives of aid is to encourage socioeconomic development, the data on Palestine's economy makes for sober reading. *Major indicators do not demonstrate any linear relationship between sustainable economic performance and the billions of dollars in aid received. *Growth rates have been volatile and unemployment is consistently estimated at 25%. Palestine is one of the worst places in the world to work, public and private debts have reached unprecedented levels, 25% of Palestinians live in poverty, 80% of Gaza’s population is aid dependent, and 50% of Palestinians are food insecure. The only economic growth achieved has been in the West Bank and this has largely been jobless growth coming off a low base, driven by private consumption and fueled by bank borrowing and one-off public expenditure projects.

*On the social level, aid continues to serve an important humanitarian purpose across the West Bank and Gaza.* Even though nearly a quarter of Palestinians remain poor, aid has been successful at alleviating some of the impacts of that poverty, at least in the short-term, by providing regular food assistance, cash for work programs, and water supplies. *The education and health sectors have also benefited from international aid. The literacy rate in Palestine has improved significantly since 1994 and it's now at 97%. In addition, the PA and other donors play a central role in providing health insurance and constructing healthcare centers. *However, the sustainability of these sectors is questionable as aid creates dependency at both provider and consumer levels. 

*Of course the limitations under which the PA and Palestinian economy operate also impede the effectiveness of aid. Without control of natural resources, borders, and 60% of the West Bank (Area C), the Palestinian economy and the PA lack the foundational assets required for effective and sustainable growth, even with substantial aid disbursements.* Then there is the division of the West Bank and Gaza into two distinct geographical zones with different economic characteristics that hamper development. The West Bank is also further fragmented into separated population hubs connected by an Israeli-controlled road network that services hundreds of Israeli settlements and military bases while impacting the most basic of economic activities.


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## rylah (Sep 20, 2018)

Coyote said:


> This article has a good analysis of aid both negative and positive.
> 
> Aid and its limits in Palestine
> 
> ...




*There are many reasons why the level of aid has declined.* Firstly, many donor countries have cut their global development and humanitarian assistance budgets in recent years. Secondly, regional developments may have diverted aid disbursements *from Palestine to other destinations with greater humanitarian needs such as Iraq, Syria and Yemen.* Finally, donor fatigue related to both the gridlocked peace process and the PA’s deteriorating democracy and human rights records should not be underestimated. These factors are also also affecting opinion at home. *The last time elections were held in Palestine was in 2006 and the State of Palestine's President Mahmoud Abbas is in his 12th year of what was initially supposed to be a four-year term.
*
The words of flacaltenn and Shusha  ring a bell...


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> This article has a good analysis of aid both negative and positive.
> 
> Aid and its limits in Palestine
> 
> ...


*DONOR OPIUM, the impact of international aid to Palestine*

**


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> This article has a good analysis of aid both negative and positive.
> 
> Aid and its limits in Palestine
> 
> ...


*International Aid & the Palestinians: Supporting Israel's Occupation?*

**


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## rylah (Sep 21, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > This article has a good analysis of aid both negative and positive.
> ...



I'm not yet done watching all of it but here's an interesting point said by Khaled Sabawi (min 12):

"One of the challenges is what's called "NGO-iazation" of developing economies.
Which is a result of a large amount of foreign aid being injected into the economy,
making it possible for the many NGO's to introduce inflated salaries, that are detached from local economy. Salaries 2-4 times higher are used to recruit the professors and engineers, raising the prices of labor directly undermining Palestinian's private sector ability to recruit professionals."


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 21, 2018)

Why give aid to those whose mantra is "kill those who leave the cult...I mean religion".

Seems stupid.


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## MJB12741 (Sep 21, 2018)

Aid to Palestinians has resulted in nothing beneficial to the Palestinian people who need it, nor to any worldly benefits.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 21, 2018)

"UNRWA Termination Means Back to Our Homeland" is a poor English translation of "UNRWA can only fire us when we return to our ancestor's homes in Israel."

When one stays on welfare long enough, it appears to be a human right.

(full article online)

"@UNRWA must remain until we return to our homeland" ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## Coyote (Sep 21, 2018)

B


rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > This article has a good analysis of aid both negative and positive.
> ...


But you can't  ignore the issues raised in the last paragraph either.

Nor can you ignore the fact that the Palestinians are being singled out for issues other donor recipients have.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> "UNRWA Termination Means Back to Our Homeland" is a poor English translation of "UNRWA can only fire us when we return to our ancestor's homes in Israel."
> 
> When one stays on welfare long enough, it appears to be a human right.
> 
> ...


The "international community" created their need to be on welfare. Israel stole or destroyed everything they need to support themselves while the rest of the world sat around with their thumb up their ass.


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## Coyote (Sep 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I want to  point out why I find the term Arab Muslims offensive when talking about Palestinians.  It is a subtle and deliberate way of denying them their identity.


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## Shusha (Sep 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Like calling the Jewish people "Zionist"? Or "settlers". Or "colonial foreigners". Or "occupiers".


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## Coyote (Sep 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Exactly!!!  Or more analogous...calling them European invaders, denying their Jewish identity and their heritage of place.


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## Coyote (Sep 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I will add a caveat...calling them settlers.  They call themselves settlers, those who choose to build settlements and out posts in disputed/occupied territory.


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## Shusha (Sep 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Except that "settlers" and "occupiers" are used around here, and generally, as a negative term denoting those who have no right to be in the disputed territories and is never used for Arabs.  So the purpose of using it is to deny Jewish historical rights to the territory and otherize them.  

What I would like to see is the same word used for all the peoples who assert claims to the place under dispute.


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## Coyote (Sep 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Settlers isn’t a perjorative.  It accurately describes who they are and what they are attempting to do.  And again, it is their term for themselves. Occupiers would be a perjorative.


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## Shusha (Sep 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Let's call all of the Arabs "settlers" then.  The Great March of Settlers.


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## RoccoR (Sep 22, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  Shusha, Coyote, et al,

I think we are beginning a little tough on each other here.

No matter which way you look at the issues there "should not" be any "contempt" here (although in reality there is).

Disapproval, yes!  

Contempt no!



Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Settlers isn’t a perjorative.  It accurately describes who they are and what they are attempting to do.  And again, it is their term for themselves. Occupiers would be a perjorative.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Great _(whatever → fill in the blank)_ is a campaign theme.  And the "Settler" terminology is a reality _(no question)_.  This terminology does not imply the deportation or forcibly transferring of any group from one place to the next.  That is an important fact to understand when discussing the Jewish Settlers from a sovereign territory in Israel to Area "C" in the territories.  _(An extremely important distinction in that separate discussion.) _

Let's not get confused between "salesmanship and imagery" with "truth in reality."  While relatively unimportant here, in a higher order of discussions _(elsewhere)_, it makes a difference.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Sep 22, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


They aren’t.  Just like all the Jews aren’t.  It is a specific subgroup engaging in a specific activity which in their view is repopulating biblical lands they feel was promised to them (and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C for Israel).  Referring to Palestinians as Arab Muslims removes their identity as Palestinians, and when posters use that term repeatedly use that term in discussions like this I want to know why.  It is no different than calling Israeli Jews European invaders.  It is diminishing their identity.  It makes just a bunch of outsiders with no historical rights or claims to the region.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


One seems to forget why Jews have had to "actually" re-settle in Judea, Samaria, The Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem and part of Gaza after 1967.

Jews were Expelled from their homes, businesses, schools, synagogues, etc in all of those areas.

Jews will never be allowed to re-settle in their homeland in TransJordan.  The Hashemites have not allowed them to reside there since 1925.

The Jewish people have always settled and re-settled in their ancient homeland.  It is a command, to settle their land.

On the other hand, Muslims in general are commanded to settle the world.

Palestinians have the right to stay where they have settled since 1920.  Israel has never said otherwise.

On the other hand, one only has to hear or read what the Muslim leaders say about Jews being allowed to be sovereign over any part of their ancient homeland.

Whether Secular or Religious "subgroups" of Jews, it has been a matter of the Jewish people realizing that they cannot live in a world where they cannot be sovereign of any part of their homeland and defend it, just as their ancestors did.

Considering that ALL Jews were expelled from the "biblical lands" of Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, why is it that any Jew does not have the right to repopulate those areas with Jewish presence, if they can?

It was taken by force from them.
They are the ones mostly being attacked by "subgroups" (?) of Muslim extremists (?) who are following the rules of the Quran, when it comes to Jews.

Aid to these leaders who insist in teaching only hatred to Jews and destruction of Israel should not continue in any form.

And still, Israel helps the Palestinians in every way it can, from electricity, clean water, etc.  And will continue to do so.

Neither Egypt, nor Jordan, nor the Arab League bothered to create infrastructure for the Arabs living in Gaza and Judea and Samaria between 1948 to 1967.  Or before that.

Israel did that, after 1967.  And continues to offer all the Palestinians need, via jobs, health care and education in order to minimize the number of Palestinians who will be incited by the
PA and Hamas curriculums of hatred for Jews and destruction of Israel .   And UNWRA is very much responsible for a huge part of that.

Time to defund the hatred.

How to make the Palestinian leaders respect the Oslo Accord and follow in putting away that education of hatred?  Or working towards making most Palestinians want to have peace with Israel instead of wanting to destroy it?

Had Arafat and Abbas spent one second doing that, Israel and the Palestinians would now be as close to a Peace Treaty as Egypt and Jordan got.

But, as I said before, Egypt and Jordan had good leaders who saw the misery the wars against Israel brought them, and they were NOT being financed by every Arab country and the West to do so.

Defund the Hatred. 

It is the only way for a future Peace treaty.

All win in the end.


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## RoccoR (Sep 22, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  et al,

I'm not sure that it is a good strategy to recognize that forced relocation of the enemy population should be brought-up as a form of Regional Customary Law.  _(WE force them out when WE win - and - THEY force us out when THEY win.)_   Neither the Israelis or the Arab League member can predict with any cetainty what the ramifications will be in the future. _(Two wrongs don't make a right.) _

While "defunding hatred" has a nice ring to it, but it actually takes several generations _(if not more)_ to arrive at a point when past difference no longer have any meaning; which is very different from - no longer a trigger for confrontation. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 22, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  et al,
> 
> I'm not sure that it is a good strategy to recognize that forced relocation of the enemy population should be brought-up as a form of Regional Customary Law.  _(WE force them out when WE win - and - THEY force us out when THEY win.)_   Neither the Israelis or the Arab League member can predict with any cetainty what the ramifications will be in the future. _(Two wrongs don't make a right.) _
> ...


Israel did not force the Arabs to flee.  Most fled because their leaders and the Jordanians told them to do so, as not to be in the way.

Israel did its outmost to keep the Arabs from leaving Israel, as can be witnessed by the Arabs in the North remaining.

The Jordanians, and we are talking of Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, planned on not leaving any Jews in those areas, just as they made sure that no Jew could reside in TransJordan after they received that land in 1925.

The wrong, from what has happened since 1920, has come from the Muslims demanding that they have all the land, and that no Jews would preferably be leaving in them.

TranJordan and Gaza had already been depopulated of Jews by 1925, and then Hebron in 1929, before they did the same in 1948.

The Jewish people wanted to live in peace, and said so.
The Arabs wanted all of the land of the Mandate for themselves just as they had gotten in the other Mandates. 
All for the Arabs, none for the indigenous people, Muslims or not.

Yes, I do know that "defunding hatred" sounds nice, and will not work unless all are on board to start with, and that it would take a few generations.  It always does.

The leaders chosen by the Palestinians continue to be the ones who incite against the existence of Israel.

As I said, it would have been easier if it were like as it was with Egypt and Jordan.  Or if it had been only the Palestinian Arabs versus the Palestinian Jews until 1948. 

But it was not, and it continues to be that way.

Mainly because it is not a Palestinian/ Israeli issue, but the Muslim Arab Nation against Israel.  It has been that from the start.

What I am trying to say is that, the less aid of any kind the Palestinians and other Muslims who hate Jews/Israel get, the better.

It has to start somewhere, stop somewhere.

Many Muslim countries have stopped giving aid to the Palestinians .  Europe needs to stop doing it as well.

Peace, or the desire for it, will not come if the Palestinian Leaders keep getting everything they want and continue to make their populations suffer and unable to revolt against them.

Could a Palestinian Spring happen at some point?
They have tried to.  But they have no weapons and power, and will continue to be that way. And we know to whom the power of being President for the Palestinians will go.

The US has every right to cut aid to the Palestinians especially as two American Citizens were targeted, especially for being Americans.

More need to do so, but they will not.  Many countries are already making up for the aid the US has cut off.

The UN is taken over by Muslim countries.
The EU is taken by those who do not like Israel.

It has simply developed into a no win situation, where hard decisions need to be made against continuing to feed the PLO, Fatah, the PA and Hamas, who continue to send out the same message.

It has slowly come to where we are, it should slowly go back to what it was before when so many got involved in the conflict to the point as to not allow the Israelis and Palestinian Arabs to come to a solution by themselves, as it usually is the case.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...





Sixties Fan said:


> Israel did not force the Arabs to flee. Most fled because their leaders and the Jordanians told them to do so, as not to be in the way.


The right to return does no depend on why they left. It is irrelevant. If they were forced out, studying abroad, on a business trip, or whatever, they have the right to return to their homes.


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 22, 2018)

TNHarley said:


> "without regard to human suffering"
> 
> Palestinians = fucking terrorists... smh




other way around charlie.LOL. Israeli's- fucking terrorists.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



*Not really, but be careful it works both ways:*
using Your argument, until that last Jewish home in the region is not returned to its' rightful Jewish descendants, all of claimed Arab property is compensation.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> B
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> ...



Don't ignore, but disagree.
Jews have been able to develop functioning economies with much less than that in every place on earth, without special help from anybody but themselves. Palestinians just want to conveniently blame Israel and the world for their failures as a society - so that everyone provides for them.

Stop the blackmail, being dysfunctional is not a human right to be protected.


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## Shusha (Sep 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> It is a specific subgroup engaging in a specific activity which in their view is repopulating ...  lands they feel was promised to them (and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C for Israel).



Not at all different from Arab Palestinian descendants wishing to repopulate land which they feel was promised to them and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C and Israel "proper" for Arab Palestine.

The difference is that the international community tends to support the one while demonizing the other.  It tends to see the Arab Palestinian descendants as having a Right to Return while Jewish descendants have no Right of Re-settlement.  I think its inherent in your response.

What if we all saw both the Arab Palestinian descendants AND the Jewish descendants as equally having the Right to Return and Re-settle?


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...




I find the term "Palestinian" offensive as well, it is a result of a deliberate attempt to erase Jewish history and identity. The correct term is "Arab- Israeli conflict".


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Shusha said:


> What if we all saw both the Arab Palestinian descendants AND the Jewish descendants as equally having the Right to Return and Re-settle?



You'd see on the 1st day a half of the middle east population abandoning their countries for Israel begging for citizenship. And the other half then next day. 

It's like I've met this Algerian in Germany who claimed he  was a Palestinian because *his brother* moved to Gaza 2 years prior to that. All Arabs potentially have 'Palestinian' cousins somewhere...Qatar and Egypt come to mind.


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## RoccoR (Sep 22, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  P F Tinmore, Sixties Fan, et al,

Contrary to popular belief there is a basic flaw here.  "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a treaty, so *it does not directly create legal obligations* for countries."  While it is contained in the International Bill of Right (the UDHR, the ICCPR, the ICESCR) → even that did not go into force until *23 March 1976.  *That is a decade after the 1967 Six-Day War.  For the all the various documents on "rights" of all categories, see the UN Human Rights Commission's list.

Your basic Human Rights Documents are:

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and

International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR).

Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination 1965

Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women 1979

Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment 1984

Convention on the Rights of the Child 1989

Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities 2006
The very best list of "Rights" I have ever seen outlined was published by the Austrailian Human Right Commission:

*Human Rights: Right by Right*



P F Tinmore said:


> The right to return does not depend on why they left. It is irrelevant. If they were forced out, studying abroad, on a business trip, or whatever, they have the right to return to their homes.


*(COMMENT)*



			
				What Article 12(4) of the ICCPR said:
			
		

> No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.



That is different from:



			
				What Article 13(2) of the UDHR said:
			
		

> Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.



The first (ICCPR) is law and second (UDHR) is not.  Do you see the difference?

This idea that the "Right of Return is "LAW" and places a binding obligation on Israel relative to the return of the refugees and descendants, is simply flawed.  Although it has been repeated so much that people mistakenly believe that it is a law.

The law expresses the prohibition against refugees and descendants being "arbitrarily deprived of the right of return."  The mere fact that they are sworn enemies of the Israelis is reason enough.  It is why the Resolution says "_Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes *and live at peace with their neighbors* should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date," is sufficient cause to deprive the right.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Sep 22, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  P F Tinmore, Sixties Fan, et al,
> 
> Contrary to popular belief there is a basic flaw here.  "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a treaty, so *it does not directly create legal obligations* for countries."  While it is contained in the International Bill of Right (the UDHR, the ICCPR, the ICESCR) → even that did not go into force until *23 March 1976.  *That is a decade after the 1967 Six-Day War.  For the all the various documents on "rights" of all categories, see the UN Human Rights Commission's list.
> ...




The distinction between "his own country" and "home" is also relevant.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I want to  point out why I find the term Arab Muslims offensive when talking about Palestinians.  It is a subtle and deliberate way of denying them their identity.




The identity that is nothing but an intentional fabrication created in the middle of the 20th century for the purposes of propaganda -- that identity?
 If this identity is so important, why did it not exist until a few decades ago?


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## Tehon (Sep 22, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> The identity that is nothing but an intentional fabrication created in the middle of the 20th century for the purposes of propaganda -- that identity?
> If this identity is so important, why did it not exist until a few decades ago?


The identity is pertinent to their survival. That is why it is so important.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> The identity is pertinent to their survival. That is why it is so important.




The made up identity has NOTHING to do with their survival.

 Considering that the fabricated identity is built around a genocidal hatred of Jews, it is actually detrimental to their survival.


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## Tehon (Sep 22, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> > The identity is pertinent to their survival. That is why it is so important.
> ...


Striving for recognition in the world has everything to do with survival.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Tehon said:
> ...



A society that straps suicide vests on their children is interested in survival?
That's like running west looking for a sunrise.


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## Tehon (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...


It is an act of utter despair. It is also an act which strives for recognition.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Tehon said:
> ...



Your answer is pure despair and none sense.

If a society looks for recognition by sending their children on suicide missions,
then they deserve neither recognition nor reproductive organs.


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## Tehon (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I can't imagine what drives a people to do that. The conditions imposed on them must be abhorrent. But we know this to be the case, don't we. Still I can't even imagine.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Tehon said:
> ...


Happens all over the middle east where Arab tribalism is alive and killing.
Suicide extortions are not the smartest way to "survive"...should I explain this on the fingers?


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## Tehon (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Humans have an uncanny ability to adept to the most appalling conditions. I can see that from both sides of the divide.  Mentally, the Jewish State is fucking twisted.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Tehon said:
> ...



You suggest suicide serves recognition and survival, but Jews are the twisted ones?
Try to at least make *some* sense...


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## Tehon (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Jews are those that are imposing the conditions that lead to a people taking such drastic measures. It makes perfect sense. I can't imagine the levels of self deception running through the minds of Israeli citizens.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Tehon said:
> ...



Yes and suicidal patients tend to  blame the doctors for all mental problems.
Just another vivid case of how antisemitism is irrational.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  P F Tinmore, Sixties Fan, et al,
> 
> Contrary to popular belief there is a basic flaw here.  "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a treaty, so *it does not directly create legal obligations* for countries."  While it is contained in the International Bill of Right (the UDHR, the ICCPR, the ICESCR) → even that did not go into force until *23 March 1976.  *That is a decade after the 1967 Six-Day War.  For the all the various documents on "rights" of all categories, see the UN Human Rights Commission's list.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> The law expresses the prohibition against refugees and descendants being "arbitrarily deprived of the right of return." The mere fact that they are sworn enemies of the Israelis is reason enough.


The reason that the Palestinians are so called sworn enemies of the Israelis is *because* they are not allowed to go back home.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

* No Reward for Terrorism: Australia Ends Aid to Palestinian Authority *

The Palestinian Authority will no longer received direct financial aid from Australia because donations could increase the self-governing body’s ability to financially reward terrorist violence.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said Monday that funding to a World Bank’s trust fund was cut after she wrote to the Palestinian Authority in late May seeking assurance that Australian funding was not being handed directly to the families of deceased terrorists.

Palestinian Media Watch said the amount of money allocated by the PA for payments to terrorists jailed in Israel in 2017 rose 13 percent to $158 million — compared to $135 million in 2016.

During the same time frame, disbursements for family members of dead terrorists increased by 4 percent — to $197 million from $183 million.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said such payments are in conflict with Australian values and while she was confident no money already given had been misused the time had come to make a change.


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## Coyote (Sep 22, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It is a specific subgroup engaging in a specific activity which in their view is repopulating ...  lands they feel was promised to them (and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C for Israel).
> ...



I wasn’t really speaking to the right or wrong of the settlers, only that it isn’t a perjorative to refer to them as settlers.  What Arab Palestinians are returning to the West Bank Area C?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2018)

Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...


Both of those refer to the place where they are from. It is territorial. The name and government may change but it is the same territory.


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## Coyote (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Really?  So the only way Jewish identity can be validated is by destroying Palestinian identity?  Really?  You can’t have both?


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...



Doesn't explain the systematic violence and Arab Pogroms against Jews during Ottoman rule.
Homes have nothing to do with it.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I want to  point out why I find the term Arab Muslims offensive when talking about Palestinians.  It is a subtle and deliberate way of denying them their identity.
> ...


The name may have changed but they are the same people.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> * No Reward for Terrorism: Australia Ends Aid to Palestinian Authority *
> 
> The Palestinian Authority will no longer received direct financial aid from Australia because donations could increase the self-governing body’s ability to financially reward terrorist violence.
> 
> ...


Money to terrorists is a foreign concept.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Jewish identity is filled with 3500 years of a unique civilization,
Palestinian identity is less than a 100 years.

One of them surely feels so in-confident...wonder who?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> .  Mentally, the Jewish State is fucking twisted.




  Genocidal antisemites ALWAYS think Jews wanting to live is twisted.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> The name may have changed but they are the same people.




Yes.

Arabs.


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Tehon said:
> ...



Suicide bombers don't use US aid?


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## rylah (Sep 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > * No Reward for Terrorism: Australia Ends Aid to Palestinian Authority *
> ...



Australia decides to disconnect from the Jihadis,
triggers total denial...but You know it still happened do You?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 22, 2018)

rylah said:


> Jewish identity is filled with 3500 years of a unique civilization,
> Palestinian identity is less than a 100 years.
> 
> One of them surely feels so in-confident...wonder who?




Palestinian identity is such a recent phenomenon that I can remember a time in my very own lifetime when "Palestinians" did not exist, only Arabs and Jews.

The whole discussion is downright Orwellian as being driven by the terrorist propagandists here.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 22, 2018)

Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. We don’t need another primitive mostly Muslim country.


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## Shusha (Sep 22, 2018)

Tehon said:


> Jews are those that are imposing the conditions that lead to a people taking such drastic measures.



Nope.  The Jewish people are imposing conditions which protect their own rights and the safety and security of the Jewish people.  The Arab Palestinians have a TON of options of how to protect their own rights and guard the safety and security of their own people.  Hey.  Newsflash.  Terrorist attacks are NOT the best use of their resources towards that goal.  A peace treaty would go a long way, though.


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## Shusha (Sep 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> The name may have changed but they are the same people.



You have inadvertently latched on to the truth of it.  They ARE the same people.  They are (as they admit) the same people as Jordanians and as Syrians.  They deliberately adopted a new name to differentiate themselves from others in order to gain additional political recognition.  

That deliberate act has transformed, over time, into a legitimate separate nationalism.  No harm, no foul.  The Jewish people have also, over time, transformed into a legitimate separate nationalism.  No harm, no foul.  Its hypocrisy to acknowledge one and not the other.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Actually, the use of the word settlers is continuously used against the Jewish side as if they were committing some crime by settling on their own ancient homeland, or in this case in Judea and Samaria, resettling where All Jews were expelled from their homes and lands, mostly in 1948.

Take for example this article:

The blood of slain Israelis stains many hands

------
On your last paragraph the question truly needs to be Which Arab Palestinians were expelled from any and all of Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem from 1920 to 1948, or even from 1967 when Israel recovered those areas, that they would need to "return" to it?
Especially from Area C, as you pointed out.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


So, Jews were the only people living there before then?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The name may have changed but they are the same people.
> ...


Indeed, before 1924 they were all the same place. They were divided into separate states by foreign powers.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> or in this case in Judea and Samaria, resettling where All Jews were expelled from their homes and lands, mostly in 1948.


Indeed, the creation of Israel fucked a lot of people including Jews. If not for the Zionist colonial project, they would still be living there.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The name may have changed but they are the same people.
> ...





Shusha said:


> That deliberate act has transformed, over time, into a legitimate separate nationalism.


It didn't happen over time. Palestine became a separate nation in 1924.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Israel has always wanted to wipe Palestine off the map and Palestinians out of history.

You still see people on this board denying their existence.


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## Lipush (Sep 23, 2018)

Please tell me you see the irony. You criticize those using the terminology you yourself use.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 23, 2018)

Note that this was not some drunken rant in a bar. Abbas delivered prepared remarks to an official session of the legislature of the Palestine Liberation Organization, of which he serves as chairman. (He is also chairman of the Palestinian Authority, in the 13th year of a four-year term, in addition to the head of the Fatah Party. Busy guy!)

Abbas’s address was so blatantly bigoted that even passionate supporters of the Palestinian cause acknowledged that he is an anti-Semite.

The New York Times, for example, reported that Abbas’s remarks were “laced with deeply anti-Semitic tropes.” Nickolay E. Mladenov, the United Nations’ special coordinator for the Middle East, said Abbas was “perpetuating conspiracy theories that fuel anti-Semitism.”

Americans for Peace Now charged that Abbas made “vile anti-Semitic statements.” J Street admitted that Abbas’s address “featured absurd anti-Semitic tropes and deeply offensive comments on the history of the Jewish people and Israel.”

But now that Abbas’s anti-Semitism has temporarily faded from the headlines, the Jewish ex-State Department crowd has returned to one of their favorite pastimes: demanding U.S. money for this lunatic.

(full article online)

More aid for anti-Semite Abbas?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 23, 2018)

From "Country cooperation strategy for WHO and the Occupied Palestinian Territory 2017–2020":

 Palestinian public finances have depended on foreign aid to a significant extent over the past decade, albeit marked by large fluctuations and unpredictability. Despite increasing needs, aid for Palestine has declined, dropping 30% in 2015 from the previous year, resulting in a US$ 650 million budget gap reported in early 2016.17 Factors contributing to this gap include the global economic recession, an increase in humanitarian needs in other countries and regions, and donor “fatigue” or “occupation fatigue”, due in part to the lack of any progress towards any political resolution of the conflict. For some reason, even though the entire world has been cutting aid to Palestinians for years, only when Donald Trump does it are there dire headlines about how awful it is.

(full article online)

Way before Trump, the world was cutting aid to Palestinians (and no one complained) ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 23, 2018)

The people arguing against @UNRWA cuts in Jordan know that Jordan is Palestine - and a Palestinian state is bad news ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The name may have changed but they are the same people.
> ...




The very much cynical invention of the made-up people called "Palestinian" had much more to do than gaining recognition.  It had to do with the reversal of public opinion in regards to power dynamics.

If one understands the conflict in it's true form -- ARAB vs. Jew, then it is easier to understand what has actually happened.  By inventing a brand new people, Arab political strategists have changed the perception of that dynamic to JEW vs Palestinian in the hearts and minds of the benightedly unintelligent.

It is a sleight of hand crafted to create the false impression of the underdog so as to gain support from the uneducated portion of the world left.


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## TNHarley (Sep 24, 2018)

LA RAM FAN said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > "without regard to human suffering"
> ...


I didnt even mention Israel. You always do this bullshit dude.
I dont give a fuck about Israel either. Get off my nuts


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


At one time Jewish identity was less than a hundred years.  Did you know that?  What is the arbritrary time line for identity?  Why is it that many of those who condemn antisemitic rhetoric denying Jews their identity as a people turn around and deny the Palestinians theirs?

Is that the real reason there is so much cheering at the ending of aid...because that sid recognizes them as something else than just more  "Arab Muslims"?


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## rylah (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


This doesn't make any sense,
You're trying to compare a 3,500 y.o. nation, to a less-than-a-century old reactionary political entity.
One of them is without a doubt a real nation, the other - merely a fraudulent welfare organization.

*If You want to discuss aid please do, focus on the numbers and leave Jews alone!*


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


It makes total sense.  Every group identity begins sometime.  You are using judaisms age to deny newer groups their right to an identity.  What is the (abritrary) starting point? 10 years?  50? 200?  1000?

I dont believe I am attacking Jews.  Insisting that the Palestinians have a right to their identity does not mean that Jews do not.  It is NOT a zero sum equation.

Or do you think it is impossible to recignize them both?


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

So the Palestinians are nothing more than a "fraudulent welfare organization"?

Yay Team Israel... Not!


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Jewish identity arose from a natural process and dates back 3500 years.  "Palestinian" identity is only a few decades old, and instead of arising as a natural process, was an intentional invention fabricated for a cynical political purpose.

It takes a special kind of dishonesty to try to portray them as the same.


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


You are not the judge of who is or is not allowed an identity.  Regardless of how it came about it is their identity now and those who try to deny it are no different than those who deny the Jewish identity.  Why is it do damn important for some to deny anothers identity?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> So the Palestinians are nothing more than a "fraudulent welfare organization"?
> 
> !



No, of course not.

They are also a terrorist juggernaut, a child-abusing machine with cradle to grave indoctrination into genocidal antisemitism and a well-oiled propaganda empire with operatives working discussion groups throughout the net

The fact that it is all so lucrative for them is just a sidebar.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




I said nothing about being ALLOWED an identity.

I simply addressed the patent dishonesty inherent in the crafting of this propagandistic illusion that they are in any way similar.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The arbitrary point is 1964, the year Arafat with the help of the KGB created the Palestinian National Identity.

National identities are created by the people themselves, through decades, centuries, millenniums of being as one.

The Palestinians are ONE with the rest of the Arab and Muslim world.

There is nothing different about them, and they even say so.

I am all for the Arabs to have an Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Lebanese, etc, identity.  And yes, they achieved it by invading and assimilating some of the indigenous culture into theirs.

What cannot be accepted is what the Arab Palestinians, and many other Arabs and Muslims aim to achieve, which is the destruction of the State of Israel and sending all Jews away from their homeland, period.

The second has already been achieved by Jews not being allowed to reside in TransJordan or Gaza.  They could not reside in Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem for 19 years.  Or Hebron from 1929 to 1967.

Arabs, themselves were confused.  They were one evening Jordanians, the next day Palestinians in 1967.

So, they ask, what are they?  Since when?
They wanted to be Syrian, and part of Greater Syria.
Arafat decided they would call themselves Palestinians (why not take the identity, since the Jews threw it away?  )

But what makes a Palestinian?
So far, their main identity is hatred of Israel, its destruction and killing or making the Jews go away.

That is their school curriculum, that is what they hear on a daily basis.

THAT is their identity, nationality.

Seriously????


There are thousands of tribes, nations and countries in the world and NOT ONE identifies itself by the alleged loss and occupation the Palestinians have crafted their Nationality into since 1964.

And there will never, ever be another one.

They receive the most aid than any other people.  Why should they?  

Why should a people whose identity was created as a way against another people be given the amount of money and help they keep receiving, in order to keep trying to destroy those people, that country?

Yes, the world is upside down, but the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian world is exactly where it is supposed to be.  
Opposing Jewish sovereignty of any piece of Muslim conquered land.....at any cost.

It does not cost the Arab leaders anything.  They keep gaining more and more money, more and more wealth.  The people are the ones to pay, because they pay both ways.

In the education they get, and in the way they are used to achieve what their leaders want them to achieve.

So, let us keep on giving them money, and more money.  The EU, Iran, Qatar and others definitely intend to continue their help.

Help the education of hatred.  The education of helplessness and hopelessness.

I am astounded that Tibetans, and many others have not copied this idea.

Wait, they do not get Millions and Millions for rockets, weapons, and an education of hatred towards they people who are actually occupying their land and not allowing them to be sovereign of their own destiny.


Who are the Palestinians?
And why do they deserve to get Billions which they abuse and misuse in their need to destroy a country and a people?


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

And what difference does it make if a people created a national identity in AD 1964 or BC 1964?

Why is it so important to deny them their identity?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



1)  Palestinians have received aid in the Billions as well.
What have they done with it all of these decades?

2) One does not go to Moscow and create a people with the KGB in order to destroy another people.

3) THEY deny it themselves. 

Arab Historian Admits there is No Palestinian People




When they put their weapons down, and stop yelling "Kill the Jews", and "Death to Israel", then and ONLY then, they will be Palestinians.

Right now, they are nothing but a weapon against Israel.  Have been since 1920 when the Husseini Clan whipped them into a frenzy to attack Jews.

Give up all of that, and receiving aid to the people who need it will not be seen as a waste and as a grotesque gesture meant to show how those who are aiding them are more than willing to see Israel disappear from the map. And the Jews with it.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> The Palestinians get aid in the millions.
> 
> The Israelis get aid in the billions
> 
> Why?



Think I explained this to you..  Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict. 

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region 
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills. 

That's why... 

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail.. 

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinians get aid in the millions.
> ...


The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with.  Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?


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## flacaltenn (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Where's the $3.1Bill in ECONOMIC aid?  That stuff disappeared largely over 2 decades ago.. 







A LOT of that is just low cost loans for buying US weapons. But I'm not aware of anymore LARGE "social or development aid".  It exists thru PRIVATE organizations and industry. But not USAID.


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## Shusha (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> You are not the judge of who is or is not allowed an identity.  Regardless of how it came about it is their identity now and those who try to deny it are no different than those who deny the Jewish identity.  Why is it do damn important for some to deny anothers identity?



No one has the right to define or judge or deny the rights of other peoples.  SELF-identification is a required component.  And that alone makes Arab Palestinian identity valid as any other.  

HOWEVER, as a national liberation movement, Arab Palestinianism has not been ENOUGH of an identity to create a nation.  In nearly a hundred years.  That's got to tell you something.  That tells me that their identity -- their national identity -- is not (yet) strong enough.


(And I know Tinmore is going to come in here claiming that it is "all Israel's fault" that the Arab Palestinian State doesn't exist, or exists but has been impossibly constrained -- but understand that ALL national liberation movements (by definition) encounter push-back and conflict. The ones which are successful are those whose internal, self-identity is strong enough to overcome that push-back and conflict.)


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


I postrd it earlier in the thread but my phone doesnt show post numberd so here is the aid link Tracking Billions of Dollars in Foreign Aid in One Map


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You are not the judge of who is or is not allowed an identity.  Regardless of how it came about it is their identity now and those who try to deny it are no different than those who deny the Jewish identity.  Why is it do damn important for some to deny anothers identity?
> ...




I totally agree with the first paragraph...the second is food for thought.


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## Shusha (Sep 24, 2018)

I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population.  Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.


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## Coyote (Sep 24, 2018)

Shusha said:


> I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population.  Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.


I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred.  They have often ended up in reduced circumstances from where they were before and they hsve lost their communitees and connections to place.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yeah. That's correct. But it's no longer "economic" aid at all. It's purely targeted for specific defense items and largely in the form of LOANS that are -- BY LAW -- repaid every year in the amount of the new aid received. Quite different from the DOD/defense/security aid we give OTHER countries and then "forgive" their loans.


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## Shusha (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population.  Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.
> ...



Nice sound byte.  Convince me.  Name some States which were divided along ethnic lines and new countries formed where the population is worse off AFTER the division than before or during.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 24, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred.  .




The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 24, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
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Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 25, 2018)

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I was speaking more of the present, but if we are to limit ourselves to 1948, I both agree and disagree with you. 

Where I disagree has to to with your use of terminology.  In 1948, it was ARABS who fled the nascent state, not Palestinians. Palestinian identity had not been invented yet. Also, you use the term Nabkahr which also had not been invented yet, at least in terms of applying it the way you apply it. This is also a term crafted years afterward by Arab propagandists as they sought a language to evoke a similar reaction to the term Holocaust". You are retrofitting modern terms to fit a reality that did not exist yet.

Where I agree is that initially, Arabs we received by their fellow Arabs rather better than they are today, and that is because they were obviously the same people. Once Arafat was successful in creating this brand new people for the purpose of propaganda,  they started to become a different people. 

This conflict has never been about so- called Palestinians expressing their desire for a homeland. It has been about denying Jews theirs. This conflict is between Arab and Jews.  900000 Jews were driven from Arab  lands, which extend over absolutely enormous swaths of land. Jews have but the tiniest little sliver for themselves and less land per capita to call their own than Arabs.

This whole business of "Palestinians" is just one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated in human history and is simply a propaganda ploy being used to get even more land for Arabs.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 25, 2018)

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I do not complain about it because Isreal does not name its streets after mass murdering terrorists and doesn't run television shows on their state media using little mice to indoctrinate their children to be mass murdering psychopaths.


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## Lastman (Sep 25, 2018)

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Psychopathy cannot be taught. It's in the brain.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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Actually They did name landmarks and streets after mass murdering terrorists.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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They are a people now.  Not a hoax.  A people.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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thete is a diffetence between dividing along ethnic lines and forced population transfers.


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## Shusha (Sep 25, 2018)

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Sure. So give me some examples. Convince me.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 25, 2018)

]





Coyote said:


> Actually They did name landmarks and streets after mass murdering terrorists.


words have meanings, Coyote.  A terrorist is a person who kills random civilians for a political purpose.

Guerilla war, on the other hand, involves the targeting of strategic military sites and centers of power .

Which Israeli streets are named after terrorists?


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## Hollie (Sep 25, 2018)

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I don’t see that as a convincing argument. I don’t find anything unique or colloquial that defines “Palestinians” from neighboring Arab-Moslem nationality or culture. I’ll also note that the PLO Charter makes continued and rather strident appeals to just how Arab, the Arab Palestinians were to be with “Arab’ism” being a central theme to the Charter.

Yassir Arafat (an Egyptian), proclaiming in the late 1960’s that “we are Palestinians”, well, that irony wasn’t lost on many.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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Ok.  Forced population transfers.  Are these people better off?

Typically when this happens people lose home, status, community and livelyhood that is never fully regained.  This isnt even looking at the bloodshed and agony over loss of place and heritage.

A small scale example can be found in those communitees in India and other areas affected by rising sea levels and increased flooding.  Rather than rebuilding governments are buying them out and or forceably moving them to inland towns and urban areas.  But these are agricultural people who no have no land or livelyhood.  They end up among the urban destitute worse off then they were before and many don't recover. 

Another example is that of the Mizrahi Jews.  Prior to being forceably expelled they one of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities, they had a degree of wealth and status all of which they lost upon expulsion.  In Israel they face discrimination from other Jews, an erosion of their culture, and they make up a disproportionate number of Israeli Jews living in poverty.  Are they better off then if they had never been expelled?

An ongoing example is the forced and horrifically violent expulsion of the Muslim Rohinga from Bhuddist majority Myanmar.  They are typically small farmers, agriculturalists, small merchants.  They have lost land, home, livestock and the means of livelihood.  They are destitute refugees in a very poor country that shares a common religion.  Are they better off? Is Bangladesh?


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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Bombing mass transit and open market places are not strategic military sites.  Irgun was responsible for an escalation in terrorist activities under commander Menachen Begin including market place bombings.  Many things are named for him as well as other Irgun fighters.  Now all that more than 60 years ago.  It is part of history now.


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## Shusha (Sep 25, 2018)

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I think you missed the main point of my initial post.  I'm not discussing changed weather patterns or brutal expulsions.  But a population exchange in a mutual agreement to separate ethnic groups into two (or more) States through national liberation movements.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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Well...are you talking about a strictly voluntary separation?


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## Shusha (Sep 25, 2018)

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False equivalency.  Begin is not memorialized AS A TERRORIST.


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## sparky (Sep 25, 2018)

Unfuzz me here

we sell arms to Isreal, then give aid to Palestine

aren't we catering to the debuachery vs. mitigating it?

~S~


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## Shusha (Sep 25, 2018)

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Collectively, yes.  Individually, no.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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But he was one and that is ignored.  Other Irgun members are memorialized as well and unlike Begin the did not go on to greater things.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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What does that mean exactly?


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## Shusha (Sep 25, 2018)

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I'll take it as a case-by-case.  But you are looking for a Jewish terrorist who is memorialized FOR being a terrorist.  Start with Baruch Goldstein.  You have a case there.  Jews and Israelis near universally think what he did was abhorrent, but there is a VERY small segment which does not.  He is the exception which, frankly, proves the rule.


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## Shusha (Sep 25, 2018)

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It means that there is collective agreement that the best way to proceed is to create two (or more) separate, relatively homogeneous cultures in separate territories, while not every individual will agree.  The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

And comparing it against other possible outcomes.

India/Pakistan.  Yugoslavia.  Czechoslovakia.  Korea.  Etc.


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## Hollie (Sep 25, 2018)

sparky said:


> Unfuzz me here
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I would say, yes. Without being able to offer an explanation as to why, we, (we here the US), ignored the fact that our humanitarian aid to Arabs-Moslems was instead used to further Islamic terrorism and to help Islamic terrorist franchises amass incredible wealth. 

In connection with arms to Israel, we have many mutually beneficial relationships with the Jewish State.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 25, 2018)

If the Kurds were in Gaza and Palestinians were in Turkey people would scream that Israel is oppressing the Kurds. No one would give a F*CK about Palestinians (see Lebanon). Its because Israel has Jews that people care. Their Jew hate is so damn obvious.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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India/Pakistan is a horrific example and India, a country where Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims still live together..so what did the bloody population transfer really achieve?.  Korea did not involve what you are talking about, it was an involuntary seperation of one homogenous cultures due to war.

The mass expulsion of Bosnians and the genocide and conflicts in the Balkans led to huge numbers of displaced people.  In fact the world is overflowing with more displaced people in refugee camps than ever before ...how is this good for anyone?  

You are not talking about voluntary population transfers in any of thhose cases.  There is only one voluntary pipulation transfer I am aware of and that is immigration.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> If the Kurds were in Gaza and Palestinians were in Turkey people would scream that Israel is oppressing the Kurds. No one would give a F*CK about Palestinians (see Lebanon). Its because Israel has Jews that people care. Their Jew hate is so damn obvious.


Supporting the Palestinian' right to identity and self determination isn't Jew hating.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 25, 2018)

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Then explain why no one complains the atrocities in Lebanon vs Palestinians? 

I 100% disagree with you. It’s all about Jew hate.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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1 100% disagree with you.  It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me.  The same can be said about Team Israel.  Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists.  Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims.  There too, different standards are applied.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 25, 2018)

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You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.


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## Coyote (Sep 25, 2018)

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Ok.  Here is your answer.  I dont know.

But here is a fact.  The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon.  That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum.  Most of the members on both sides only post here.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 25, 2018)

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The reason is Jew hate. If it were Turks in Israel no one would care about the Palestinians. But the dirty Jews!? Well they are oppressors. It is right in front of you ma’am. Please open your eyes.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 25, 2018)

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that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.


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## rylah (Sep 26, 2018)

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I'm sorry for going a bit off-topic but this is a dishonest claim, usually twisted by anti-Israeli organizations and the old generation of politicians who experienced difficulties, real ones, upon moving to Israel.

A couple of things to make clear:

1. Any big community that moves to another country experiences difficulties for 1-2 generations.
It's simple math I don't think I have to explain. The same was discussed by C.G. Jung regarding European societies. It's a natural human condition - not a state policy.

2. _"One of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities"_  - Jews tended to be more educated than the rest of the populations and successful everywhere in any condition.
Yet till the last days of Moroccan Jewry (the MOST wealthy and integrated) they still lived in Mlahs - officially segregated ghettos. A Jew walking out the Mlah into Muslim areas had to put his shoes on the shoulder to differentiate himself.  Hertzl's grandfather was serving Rabbi Elkalai  - the first visionary of modern Zionism who had a set and detailed plan for re-building Israel. His plan was initiated by the order of Rabbi Haim ben-Attar - a Moroccan sage who left everything behind to move to Israel, and made journeys through Europe to convince Jews join him.. What initiated this - Arab pogroms! What was Rabbi Hami ben-Attar's order - that upon the first sign of attacks on the Jews they MUST leave and go to their homeland to save themselves. It was the 18th century. Many don't realize that Arab and European pogroms occurred almost at the same period if time. Yes they were Kings' advisors, of most importance for setting international trades and relationship,  physicians etc. but Stalin too had Jewish doctors...and we know how it ended.
Another vivid example is Haim Ferhi - the most influential Jew in Ottoman Syria, read about him, and read about the Damascus affair,  as a result of which were initiated the first Zionist international organizations.
It was real apartheid, both in Europe and Middle East, to say they were most integrated- is disingenuous and offensive.

3. _"In Israel they suffer from discrimination"_ - not discrimination but natural integration difficulties. For example the million Soviet Jews who arrived in the 90's were in direst situation compared to Soviet Jews who moved at the beginning of the century, or even during the 70's.
Inheritance is a key factor here , it takes 1-2 generations to stand firmly and pass security to Your offspring.

4. _"Erosion of their culture" _
In fact - Israeli Jews are mixed 50/50 Middle eastern and Ashkenazi - through intermarriage, I'm an example.
Israel is a real melting pot - for example the most common surnames are Mizrahi, our most successful singers are - Mizrahi, we predominantly pray from Mizrahi prayer-books (even in Ashkenazi synagogues).
On the other hand if You go to Ukraine on Rosh haShana (where Rabbi Nachman is buried) You'll see 90% of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews from Israel, the same trends go in the "other" direction. It's because we're a nation.

On the other hand Arabs still have difficulty to marry someone from, or move to another Arab majority town because of 'Mush milna' - not one of us in Arabic. A distance of 50km is enough. This is the reason why they demand to be called refugees while living in the same country - Arab tribes have been historically violently fighting each other over everything, the tribe loyalty comes before any social structure, the nation and even Sharia courts.

5. _"Disproportionate poverty"_- maybe, but frankly I can't see it. There's no real poverty in Israel other than by choice. And many do take that choice to go an be Torah scholars, eat bread with butter and sleep on thin mattresses. Another point is that Israel was built by a majority of Ashkenazi immigrants, who arrived earlier en mass, their advantage is natural due to  time frames, and the fact that secular education was more prevalent in Europe than in Middle East. Compared to Mizrahi Jews who immigrated in the 50-70's, Soviet Jews from the 90's are only finishing their integration financially and mentally.Though it's a very quick integration - 1 generation only, if not a record in human history.
One other key factor is understanding that Israel, in the 50's-60's (when many Mizrahi immigrated) experienced an austerity period. There were no resources to build houses fast enough for the new immigrants, and all Israelis were receiving limited portions of groceries by talons.

This is very disingenuous, and poisonous to suggest these people would be better off staying in Yemen, Morocco or Iraq. It's the same as when people suggest Jews were better off in Eretz Israel under Muslim rule, neglecting that this was the most impoverished, neglected, wild and violent region of the Ottoman empire for all inhabitants.It was worse than in any of those other places where Jews were usually left alone during inter-Arab fighting, in Eretz Israel the weak Jewish community was systematically impoverished by the govt, and the neighbors who targeted Jews in every opportunity, even when uninvolved in their conflicts.
We didn't reestablish our country just for a shelter, we went to the most poor and dangerous place and made it into a gem, the rest, like Morocco and Iraq for example, can desperately bite their elbows begging us back.


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## Ecocertifmrl (Sep 26, 2018)

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I'm sorry you write so much and can so little. But 99% of your points are inadequate.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 26, 2018)

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You hear when I type? LOL


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## rylah (Sep 26, 2018)

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There's an expresion in Israel about people like You-* " walked by, got in the middle of an argument, gave his 'professional' opinion and left the scene".*
There's also a word for people who behave in such a way -_ *'ARSIM' (poisonous in English)*_- as the lowest form of human development. You're an _*ARS*_ with a professional qualification of an _*ARS*_...I just wonder if it's coincidence that it rhymes with Your additional professional description in English.

 Don't You have a rock to crawl back under?


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## member (Sep 26, 2018)

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Praise God, 

 Praise the Lord.  Fuck PLO offices on American soil..  Fuck these ungrateful foreign jamokes with their candy visas and U.S. BANK ACCOUNT*(S)*...accounts with an *S*.  what the hell are these palestinians doing here?  shouldn't they be in the gaza strict and the west tank trying to help broker peace and help find a 2-state solution for themselves & their...brethren?  American government naivety to the MAX.




*"In 1939, we turned away the St. Louis from our harbors. We didn't like immigrants.." ETC...
*



 _Guess what:  it "ain't" 1939....immigration is a gazillion-times different than when my grandparents schlepped here from Italy.  the united states of america is the most liberal, welcoming country on the face of the earth.  you should SEE what jeff sessions and mitch and andrew and kirsten LET into this country.  you'd be *liberally* proud.

_
*MOD EDIT -- Removing solicitation of personal information..  Don't do it. Members personal lives are protected..  member
*


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## Shusha (Sep 26, 2018)

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Yes.  The conflict IS between Arabs and Jews.  Had there been no conflict, the Palestinian identity would never have arisen.  Frankly, I believe most solutions will result in Palestinians being re-absorbed into other cultures.


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## Shusha (Sep 26, 2018)

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Conflict is HORRIBLE for people.  No question there.  What if we avoided conflict by voluntarily -- strongly encouraged -- population exchange?


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## Coyote (Sep 26, 2018)

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It is a fact.


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## Coyote (Sep 26, 2018)

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Once a people have an identity you cant simply remove it, whether it is 50, 100, or 1000 years in exhistence.  The fact that there are people here who clearly feel there are no such people as Palestinians while simultaneously railing against those who deny Jewish identity is disturbing.


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## Coyote (Sep 26, 2018)

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Can you give me an successful example of this and what you mean by "strongly encouraged"?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 26, 2018)

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I am more disturbed by YOU turning a blind eye that this is 90% about Jew hate and 10% about Palestinian rights.


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## Shusha (Sep 26, 2018)

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The question was more along the lines of whether it was possible rather than whether it has been done before.

It seems to me that ultimately separation has proven rather successful as opposed the alternatives.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

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That would have been the best solution, yes -- for the Arabs who had no identity other than as Arab to have settled with the Arabs with whom they were indistinguishable.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

[Here is one of the main reason why the West, and the East, should stop funding the PA.  Where does the money go? ]

The World Bank issued a series of reports on the dire situation in Gaza - and it reveals some interesting facts in its recommendations.

 Restore transfer flows
1. Restore aggregate PA payments to Gaza (these have declined by $30 million per month from 2017). Priority should be given to social assistance payments, medical supplies, and salaries for PA employees who are working.
2. Reverse the decline in donor funding to key service delivery agencies such as UNRWA. The cuts began around April 2017. $30 million a month since April 2017 comes out to over half a billion dollars!

(full article online)

World Bank: Abbas has withheld roughly a half a billion dollars from Gaza so far ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

[ Thank you European Parliament ]

If it passes, the Palestinian Authority will finally be forced to change its textbooks and begin to teach its children about the reality of the geography of the State of Israel as well as the Palestinian Authority – and about the concepts of peace – or forfeit 15,440,597 Euros in funding from the European Union.

(full article online)

European Parliament Committee: No Money for Palestinian Authority Education Until School Books Change


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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That would be like saying send the Jews back to Europe so they can settle among those from whom they are in distinguishable.

Basicaly Team Israel seems to be promoting uprooting Palestinians from their homeland.  How convenient.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> [ Thank you European Parliament ]
> 
> If it passes, the Palestinian Authority will finally be forced to change its textbooks and begin to teach its children about the reality of the geography of the State of Israel as well as the Palestinian Authority – and about the concepts of peace – or forfeit 15,440,597 Euros in funding from the European Union.
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Will Israel beforced to change its textbooks then?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Succrssful for whom?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

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Does it promote hatred of others, especially of Arabs or Muslims or Christians and the uprooting of all of those people from Israel?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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False equivalency. No other mostly Jewish nations.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Why do you agree with this Susha?

The Palestinians have an identity now whether or not you choose to recognize.  Team Israel has expended a great deal of time and effort in attempting to erase that identity.  Moving the Palestinians to other Arab countries is an extention of thst.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

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"Team Israel", nor Israel itself, has suggested uprooting Palestinians from anywhere they live.  Be it in 1920 or now.

Palestine is not the Arab Palestinian's ancient homeland, as it is for the Jewish Palestinians.

Herzl and all others, peaceful Arab clans included,  have always wanted to live together in harmony once the Jewish State came to be.

An Arab clan, the Husseini, have made sure that it would never be.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Doesnt matter if you are promoting expulsions ... Jews that came from Europe share a common European culture.  Given the heavy handed approach of denying identity in order to get rid of people why not?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Jews left Europe for Israel and US because they were not wanted.


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

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I didn't say anything about moving Palestinians to other countries. I said they will likely be re-absorbed. 
Do you know why I said that?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

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I do not understand your paragraph. Please be more specific.


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

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Now don't you fall for this "Jews are Europeans" crap and start repeating it. 

The common culture the Jewish people have in Israel is the Jewish culture. That's what binds them together and makes them the Jewish people.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

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Judaism, its history, culture, everything is what has always bound all Jews together.

Israel is the place where they have always belonged, anytime they lived away from that land.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

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You have had the significance of the intentional invention of a new "Palestinian" identity explained to you countless times over the years by those more knowledgeable than you, yet you persist in your same sophistry in an extremely dogged fashion. Why? Why do you continue making these same childish equivalences?

Is it because you are incapable of understanding or that you simply refuse to understand?

You have indicated that these Palestinians have done nothing wrong, which, of course includes all the terrorism of Jews, the child abuse inherent in turning young children into hateful killing machines, the honor killing of their wives and daughters and a whole panoply of other problematic issues.  Is it that you are simply lacking the ability to indulge in moral reasoning or refuse to do so because you champion all things Islamic like you do?

No matter how often you try to claim two different things are the same, they are still different.  There is an difference between a nation of people who share an identity going back 3500 years and grew out of a natural process and that of a subgroup that was invented in very deliberate and cynical fashion in order to manipulate public perception.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

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Shusha said:


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 When people fill their heads with the propaganda they find at pro- terrorist and antisemitic websites, this Jews as Europeans theme is one they pick up. 

Offering this theme says a lot about a person's internet habits.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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I was using that as an example for those here who call for expelling Palestinians to other Arab countries because they are culturally indistinguishable.  I could just as easily said let's expell everyone from Oregon, return the land to the natives and transfer the people to Mississippi....because after all they culturslly the same (sarcasm alert).  You can make a valid argument that while Jews sharecommon culture based in Judiasm, they are also a diverse population from around the world who share as much if not more in some cases with those cultures than with each other.  French Jews consider themselves French.  Jews from Arabicized cultures are considered Arab.  If you say a Palestinian could be dumped in Syria and no one could tell the difference...then couldn't the same be said of a Jew from France?  Jews share a common Jewish identy gained from millinea of shared and as well as diverging cultural development.  The same can be said of the Pakestinians though their cultural identity is more recent.

The people here who work very hard to deny the Palestinians their identity are no different from their ideological opposites who put their energy into denying Jews their unique identity.

The question I have to ask is this :  why do both sides view this as a zero sum equation where one sides identity has to be demolished in order to "win"?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Easy. Palestinians like most Islamists who are radical want all Jews dead. Jews don’t want to give a homeland to those who elect Government bodies like Hamas whose doctrine is to kill all Jews. 

Zero sum.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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What are you talking about?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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When does a people become a people?  What is the exact moment?  Is it in two weeks?  25 years? A hundred? A thousand?



> Is it because you are incapable of understanding or that you simply refuse to understand?



And?  See above question.



> *You have indicated that these Palestinians have done nothing wrong,* which, of course includes all the terrorism of Jews, the child abuse inherent in turning young children into hateful killing machines, the honor killing of their wives and daughters and a whole panoply of other problematic issues.  Is it that you are simply lacking the ability to indulge in moral reasoning or refuse to do so because you champion all things Islamic like you do?



I have indicated no such thing. Stop lying.



> No matter how often you try to claim two different things are the same, they are still different.  There is an difference between a nation of people who share an identity going back 3500 years and grew out of a natural process and that of a subgroup that was invented in very deliberate and cynical fashion in order to manipulate public perception.


Again...what exact point did they become a people?  Or is it arbritary?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Is it necessary to deny Palestinians their identity in order to have this?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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What identity? People who elected Hamas to represent them?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Oh...areyou answering a question with a question?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Got me. They elected Hamas to rep them. An internationally recognized terror group. That is their identity as Jew hating terrorists


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

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Sorry, but......
Jews from Arabized countries do not consider themselves to be Arabs, or call themselves Arabs.  Never have, still do not.

That there is a new Nationality called Palestinian for the Arabs, but only post 1964 when the PLO was founded, does tell some people that the Arabs in Mandate for Palestine never even considered the possibility of calling themselves that until their leader Arafat and the KGB came up with it.

That said, they are now calling themselves Palestinians, and feel that they do belong to the land, as much as those in Jordan feel they do belong in Jordan and are Jordanians, regardless of the fact that the Hashemites only moved to that area around WWI.

Arab Palestinians who are friendly to Israel and the Jewish people, have always been welcome to live in Israel.

What we may have said, and which country would not, is that those who are Jihadists and wish to see for the destruction of Israel and all Jews, have no place in Israel.

But even then, with Arabs in the Knesset constantly being the fifth column against Israel, there has not been ONE Arab Knesset member who has been fired, and much less deported from Israel.

If we look again at Jordan, Gaza and Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria......

"NO JEWS ALLOWED"


That is where the Arab Palestinian identity is very much the same as the Arab Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, etc, which comes from their Islamic teachings.  (There are many Arabs, Muslim and Christians who do not embrace those teachings and have been friends to Jews and helped them if necessary, but they are not in big numbers and have no power to be able to bring an end to the teachings or peace with Israel)

What differentiates the Arab Palestinians from all of these other Arabs?

Nothing that I can tell.  Their culture, etc is very much the same.

Can you, Coyote, tell us what is the difference between Palestinian Arabs and all the other Arabs?

For one, Iraqi, and most other Arabs (except for Lebanon) are not at Israel's doors with the intent of attacking and destroying it)  Neither are Iranians, except that Iran is now in Syria attempting exactly that.

I sincerely do not know, culturally, what the difference between the Palestinian Arabs and all other Arabs, except for the areas where they live.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

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Again I will ask:

What is the Palestinian Identity?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Corrupt terrorists


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

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And again, you do not seem to realize that the ones denying an identity to the others, are the Arab Palestinians who deny even a Jewish existence on the land of Israel, regardless of all the history, archeology, etc which continues to exist on the land.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

I was answering Rocco on the other thread and this is what I wrote:

The Arab Palestinian identity is that they value death, more than they value life.
That is what has been taught to them since they lost in 1948 and 1967. It is their curriculum.
--------

That is why so many are so willing to die for what they believe is Allah's command.
They must give their lives for the cause.
What is the cause?  Taking back land once owned by Muslims, any Muslims.  Israel is the only piece of the Mandate which is not in Muslim hands.

And which is why I would say that there really is no difference between one Arab Muslim identity and another.  They all teach the same, and behave the same way.

Many Muslims have moved to Europe and are working slowly in order make any part of Europe part of Islam.

The mentality is the same, the identity is the same.
The world is Muslim, it belongs to Islam and some day all will be Muslims.

I will ask again:

What is the difference between Arab Palestinians from Egyptian, Lebanese and other Arabs, except for the land they are standing on?

Where was all the Palestinian art, poetry, etc, distinct from all other Arab art and poetry, before WWII?  
For sure they now have the Palestinian "Empty" Museum.
They do have all the posters, poems, art, etc depicting what has happened to them since 1920.

But before?
Where was their unity, their culture, their leaders, etc, etc which distinguished them from all other Arabs and Muslims? Distinguished them from the Ottoman Turks?

Do Arabs who came from all over the Africa, Europe and Middle East at the time of the Mandate, suddenly become Palestinians because they have found themselves in the area at the time ?

Do they not come from Egypt, Arabia, Libya, Bosnia, etc, and is that not their primary identity, as so many Arab Palestinians will tell us?

They do have an identity.  First and foremost, they are Arabs.  Then Muslims, then they were caught in an Arab power struggle between those who wanted to live in peace with the Jews on their own ancient homeland, and those who did not.

What is the Palestinian Identity, even today?

ALL one has to look at is the Palestinian Museum in Ramallah, I referred to above.

WHY does it continue to be empty?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

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I wrote in plain English.

The theme you offered is only found at terrorist and neo Nazi type sites.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 27, 2018)

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AzogtheDefiler said:


> Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians?


The Palestinians are foreigners in Lebanon.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Ding ding ding. They are squatters in Israel too.


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> You can make a valid argument that while Jews share common culture based in Judiasm,



Error #1.  The Jewish people share a common culture, history and heritage which is based, only in part, on a shared and unique religion.  The culture, customs and traditions exist outside and alongside the religion.  



> they are also a diverse population from around the world


...because they were ethically cleansed from their own historical, indigenous lands and who managed to avoid assimilate and retain their own culture, customs and traditions over the space of 3000 years in Diaspora.  



> who share as much if not more in some cases with those cultures than with each other.


Is there some sort of problem with having more than one cultural heritage? How is this relevant?  It comes perilously close to the canard of "its just a religion" which delegitimizes the Jewish people, their identity and their history.



> French Jews consider themselves French.


French Jews ARE French -- as in they are nationals of France.  They also have some cultural attributes - notably language - of being French.  Again, so what?  This slides by the "are Jews more loyal to Israel or their country".  Why would the adoption of another culture in any way change their Jewish identity.  Are Palestinian Americans no longer Palestinian?



> Jews from Arabicized cultures are considered Arab.


Not by the Jews themselves.  



> If you say a Palestinian could be dumped in Syria and no one could tell the difference...


WE are not the ones saying that.  That originates with the people themselves.  They do not consider themselves different from Syrians and Jordanians.  They consider themselves one people.  That is even evident in the various charters and basic laws.  



> The people here who work very hard to deny the Palestinians their identity are no different from their ideological opposites who put their energy into denying Jews their unique identity.


I disagree. There is a very great difference between denying the Jewish identity and acknowledging the emergence of the Palestinian identity at a certain place and in a certain time.  Especially as this reflects the expressions of the Palestinian people themselves.  



> The question I have to ask is this :  why do both sides view this as a zero sum equation where one sides identity has to be demolished in order to "win"?


Both sides do not view it as a zero sum equation.  Only one side does that.  That is why things like the withdrawal from Gaza can happen.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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No.

Their identity as Palestinians.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I have indicated no such thing. Stop lying.




 I fear you have been hacked, then, Coyote, because as all the good posters in this thread can see, the Islamist poster called Coyote DID say so right here:

Trump freezes Palestinian Authorities BANK ACCOUNTS

 Are there two of you running around?


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

Palestine's Basic Law:

*Title One*
*Article 1*
_Palestine is part of the larger Arab world, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab nation.  Arab unity is an objective that the Palestinian people shall work to achieve_.


Isn't self-identification an essential part of self-determination? Shouldn't the Arab Palestinian people be permitted to self-identify?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Palestine's Basic Law:
> 
> *Title One*
> *Article 1*
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There is a famous paper from the late 40s written by King Abdul called "as the Arabs see the Jews".  It contained a long list of grievances which consisted of the usual half truths, omissions and fabrications we are all familiar with today, but the striking part of it is that not once in his long diatribe does he mention any "Palestinians".

 Gee. I wonder why?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Much of that can be applied to the Palestinians but isn’t.  I have no issue with recognizing Jewish identity and rights AND Palestinian identity and rights, and if you think otherwise after years of posting then I am sorry.

Read this thread and tell me WHO is recognizing the identity of the other.

Sixties?
Dogmaphobe?
Member?
Independent?
Rylah?

There is a very clear double standard at play here, where in order to validate Jewish rights Palestinian identity must be marginalized and the must be turned into a fictional people who can never gain an identity because of their beginnings.  That of course makes it easier to dismiss them and their rights and support expelling them to other Arab countries.

It is not just team Palestine that has problems accepting the right to identity of the other.  As far as some here are concerned they are just Arab Muslims.  

And no one seems able to define the magical point where they become accepted as a people.


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I have no issue with recognizing Jewish identity and rights AND Palestinian identity and rights, and if you think otherwise after years of posting then I am sorry.


Ditto.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Palestine's Basic Law:
> 
> *Title One*
> *Article 1*
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Oh...let’s see....Poland, France, Germany, Italy....identify themselves as part the European Union.  I guess that means there is no Italian or German etc identity.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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When does a people become a people?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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You seem to be arguing against recognizing Palestinian identity and agreeing with those who deny it.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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You are such a liar.  You are taking what I said in relation to AID and using it to imply I feel Palestinians do nothing wrong in any context.  You dishonest piece of shit.  I should not be surprised.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

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 Talking about "teams" is very childish. This isn't about teams, but about intellectual honesty.

 There is a bigger cultural difference between People living in New York and Texas than there is between these "Palestinians" and any other Arabs.  They are Arabs. That's what they are. They speak Arabic, follow Arabic culture, and did not think of themselves as anything BUT Arabs until  encouraged to do so 50 years ago. Why this is important has been explained to you AD NAUSEUM over the years, but you still cling to your childish blather about "Teams"

700000 Arabs left what is now Israel in 1948. 900,000 Jews were summarily expelled from Arab lands soon thereafter. The invention of these "Palestinians"  (and by an Egyptian, no less) is just a way to hoodwink childish people who speak in terms of "teams" into supporting the Arabs by creating the illusion of victimhood.

Intelligent and intellectually honest people see through the ruse.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 27, 2018)

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You said they have done nothing wrong so should continue to get aid. 

 It was as clear cut as all get up.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Untrue.

Israel is much like the US, in that it has a culturally diverse immigrant. population from around the world who’s only point of commonality is that they are Jewish.  Their cultural backgrounds vary from Arabicized to European in origin, American, African and Indian.  This diversity does not necessarily create harmony, in fact Israel has a lot of cultural divisions among these groups including discrimination. Again like America.  Acknowledging that, acknowledging the immigrant nature of A portion of Israel’s population is no different than acknowledging our American heritage.  In fact it gives Israel a culturally rich diversity that is refreshing.  I don’t see how that can be attributed to hate sites frankly nor do I peruse them.


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

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On the contrary, I simply think we should honest about what it is. 

It exists. But it was not a natural outgrowth of a unique culture which developed in place. It arose within a specific political context as a direct response to other political events. And it still is not strong enough as a culture to bring about a unified nationality and liberation movement. 

Does that mean Arab Palestinians have no identity? Of course not. 

Most of us on Team Israel can see the reality and express it as such. And discuss it. 

Without that strong development of a national identity, I think it likely the Palestinians will eventually be re-absorbed into the surrounding nations. In fact, I've expressed several times that might be the best solution to the conflict.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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I said they have done nothing wrong to cause a total cessation of aid and I went on to support my points through multiple posts by providing examples of countries with similar issues who continue to receive aid.

Are you continue down this dishonest path?  Were you able to refute any of the points I made or are you limited to taking a statement out of context and lying about it?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Does it matter how it arises?  Because we don’t know how most identities arose.  How came into being as a result of conflict?


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

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To be fair to Coyote, I believe I am the one who instituted the "Team" phrasing. 

It arose on another board which I participated in for years. It was specifically used to avoid having to constantly type pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel. 

It's a convenient shorthand for me and you should properly blame me for it rather than Coyote.


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

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Yes. It does matter. 

Else I wouldn't be arguing for the honesty.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Most of Team Israel is flat out denying identity every time the refer to them as Arab Mosley’s.  Just like when Team Palestine refers to European Invaders.

Look at this thread and the names I mentioned a few posts earlier.

Who among them is recognizing a seperate Palestinian identity?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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No, I disagree.  Saying it matters is just a subtle way of denying it..


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

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The Jewish people are the indigenous people. Not colonizers. Not invaders.  So no, not like America at ALL.


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## Shusha (Sep 27, 2018)

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It matters because it has not presented itself as a viable national identity. Yet. Hope endures.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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I am going to simplify this for you because I think your statement reveals a depth of cultural ignorance when people try to talk about the areas such as the Middle East or Africa or Latin America as if they were all culturally the same while claiming Texas and New York are more different.  Talk to the people there and they would point out huge differences, prejudices, dialects and culture.  Morocco is not like Saudi Arabia and neither are like Egypt but all are part of the Arab world like Sweden, Italy and Belgium are part of the European world.  Honestly it is the height of cultural ignorance and arrogance to assume they are all the same because you are to lazy to learn anything about them.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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yes like America.  They have been gone for thousands of years.  The peop,e immigrating to or returning to (which ever way you look at it) are not the same people who left and in their immigration or return, they brought with them the cultures they had become in other lands.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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I enjoy seeing those who are not Jews tell me what real Jews are....


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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I am not telling you who is or isn’t a real Jew.  As far as I am concerned anyone who self identifies as Jewish, is.  Does that cause problems for you?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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But you are. Reciting history, stating the difference between ME Jews and EUR Jews. LOL.

There is a reason Jews persevere despite our small numbers. We don't have wars and try to kill one another. We help one another at all costs and stand together unified. At least 99% of us do. We all suffered a similar despair not all that long ago. Those who are not Jews simply do not grasp this bond. And every time they denounce Israel and applaud the terror territory of Gaza and Fatah controlled West Bank we just shake our heads.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Christians in Egypt are different than Christians in France are different than Christians in Mexico.  Muslims in the US are different than Muslims in Saudi are different than Muslims in China. 

Are you saying that all Jews are are the same?  They share a common heritage and the culture that comes with that heritage but they are also very diverse.  That shouldn’t be seen as a negative.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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They share the same will to survive and thrive in a world where people despise them. Are you American?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Yes.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Jews are 3% of the population but statistically are the wealthiest. Also can you name one mostly Jewish neighborhood that is a bad neighborhood? We succeed despite the blatant antisemitism in this country. Why do you think that is?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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What is your point?

I oppose antisemitism.

And Islamophobia.

And racism.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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My point is that Jews are able to succeed because of our close knit ties and same drive to help one another. Unlike other minorities that many times sabotage one another. Islamaphobia is a terrible term. People aren’t scared of Islam. They don’t like Radical Islam. Islamaphobia is the weapon of the Left.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Islamophobia describes hatred towards Muslims...not the best term. Many people do not see any difference between Muslims and extremists so the hate and rhetoric is much like that directed against Jews.  A convenient scale goat, it is socially acceptable to hate Muslims in today’s political climate.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Incorrect. Phobia means fear. And many cannot tell the difference between extremists and moderates. Including you and I. I dont see BDS movements on college campuses against mostly Muslim countries just one Jewish one.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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I see a lot of hate and violence directed at Muslims in the US.   I see politicians trying to prevent mosques from being built, people calling for Islam to be banned, revocation of citizenship, Muslim databases etc.  at least when nuts attack Jews we call it it what is, anti semitism, and marginalize them.  We don’t call them patriots.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

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Colleges support open BDS movements on campuses. Google it. I dont see what you see when it comes to Muslims. The anger is due to Afghanistan, Iraq, ISIS and 9/11. People are angry. I don’t see any open anti Muslim marches on college campuses or anti black or anti Asian. But anti Jew is acceptable. Why is that so you think?


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

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"Jews share common culture based in Judiasm, *they are also a diverse population from around the world who share as much if not more in some cases with those cultures than with each other." *

*Jew from Yemen (1st temple exiled community) :*






*Ashkenazi Jew (2n'd Temple excile):*





*Jew from Yemen:*





*Ashkenazi Jew :*





*Jews in Yemen:*





*Rabbi Kook (Lithuanian Community 1st chief Ashknaz Rabbi and Zionist visionary)*





*Ashkenaz (Rabbi Rosenboim):*





*Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak (Yemeni community):*





*Rabbi Landoy Zt"l (Polish community)*





*Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Zt'l (Babylon community Chief Mizrahi Rabbi of Israel)*





*Hofetz Haim Zt"l (Ashknaz sage)*





* Rabbi Mordechai Elyahu Zt"l (Babylon, Chief Mizrahi Rabbi of Israel)*





Shlomo Weizman (Ashknaz)





Tal Barzilay (Morocco)





When Jews from Yemen came to Israel they wore the exact same traditional garbs, same colors even.
Their pronunciation of Hebrew was 85% similar (2 letters pronounced only slightly different). They wore the same sidelocks that made them different from any other nation. And their construction of the scroll was exactly similar. These were 2 furthest communities from their homeland Eretz Yisrael, north Europe and south Arabia, and yet they were strikingly similar.

Now to suggest they had more in common with the locals is to erase the Holocaust and 2000 years of our indescribable genocide. We tried to be like them once in Germany, to the fullest extent - the result is known, yet You suggest we had more in common with Germans than with fellow Jews who were persecuted for their striking difference in every corner of the earth. GET IN TOUCH WITH YOUR HEART AND SENSES FAST!


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

Many American Jews when they first visit Israel state that is the only time they truly feel they are among their own people. The connection is deep.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Lklkl


rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



You can search and find pictures showing similarities and select those.  But do a search for Jews around the world and along with similarities you see many differences.  Search for Jewish cuisine around the world..again, much variety along with common customs.

My question is two:

Why is this a bad thing?  It isnt.  It is wealth.

And what I am seeing is a reflexive reaction to anything that might imply Judaism is not the same around the world because that feeds into the anti Semitic rhetoric that tries to claim Judaism is not a distinct culture.  Diversity within a culture is not absence of a culture.

And yet you can not give the same consideration to Palestinian identity which was forged in conflict and loss...sound familiar ?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Many American Jews when they first visit Israel state that is the only time they truly feel they are among their own people. The connection is deep.


I don’t disagree.  I am not strongly religious.  I won’t ever feel the powerful connection each religion has towards its holy places.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> .  French Jews consider themselves French.  Jews from Arabicized cultures are considered Arab.



No, no and again NO.
You have just deeply offended 2 groups of people with whom You probably had no prior extensive contact.
You have no idea how offensive this is, Hetzl became a Zionist exactly because of Dreyfus affair.
Don't ever call Jews -  Arabs!
Arabs attempt to steal our identity in order to steal our land that they've colonized many times over, once again.
You don't have an idea what it was to NOT be an Arab in Iraq or Yemen, we NEVER were Arabs, we were always made clear we weren't, and they were very creative in inventing such ways -* Yellow star for Jews rings a bell?!
*


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Many American Jews when they first visit Israel state that is the only time they truly feel they are among their own people. The connection is deep.
> ...



Which religion?


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## fncceo (Sep 27, 2018)

What I find most interesting about this thread is that a simple subject that would have very limited interest to anyone who doesn't have a personal connection with either Israel or the Palestinians has within just a week accumulated nearly 600 posts.

Clearly a lot of people take strong positions on a subject that affects them in no significant way for a reason.

One doesn't have to be a detective to understand what that reason might be.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Lklkl
> 
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> rylah said:
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Diversity?
Is it like Iraqi Jews eating a lamb head on Passover while Ashkenazi eat a fish head because Europe was poor at the time?

You have zero knowledge on the issue.

Or maybe it's that Yemeni and Ashknaz Jews put their sidelocks and tzitzit outside while Sephardic hide it behind the ears and inside pants because of Spanish inquisition?

If You cared to get beyond Your one liners, and actually read some about a nation with 3500 years of unique culture, that was ALWAYS DIFFERENT FROM EVERYONE ELSE You'd find out how astonishingly small and irrelevant are Your points..


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
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> > .  French Jews consider themselves French.  Jews from Arabicized cultures are considered Arab.
> ...



I have not offended anyone.  But maybe you.  I am paraphrasing French Jews angered and upset at an increase in antisemitism in France, reacting to Netanyahu’s suggestion that they should immigrate to France with anger, stating that they should not have to, they were as French as any Frenchman (and the French government reiterated that).

I am also paraphrasing from how the Arab Jews are regarded in Israel...as Arabs:

Khaled Diab: Like the Palestinians, Middle Eastern Jews have fallen victim to political forces beyond their control


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


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I am not depending on one liners.  Are you?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Kljjjjj






AzogtheDefiler said:


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They all have holy sites.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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I speak Arabic, if someone would call me an Arab I'd get offended, as any other Jew.
We SURVIVED the Arabs, we're not one.
As much as we're not Germans or French.

You're getting on my nerves! I assume Your ancestors were the once who made sure we were NOT part of You no matter what. Now the audacity to call us Frenchm, Arab an German after all we've been through!?

You've crossed the thin line long ago.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Be'chol Lashon: About: The History of Jewish Diversity

The Jewish experience is built upon foundations of diversity as old as the Jewish people, a reality that may be lost to many Jews who tend to think of other Jews as being only like themselves. The historical home of the Jews lies at the geographic crossroads of Africa, Asia, and Europe. Jews are an amalgam of many peoples and Jewish origins include a multitude of languages, nations, tribes, and skin colors.

The essence of the story of the Jewish people is based on the Exodus from Egypt, where Jews sojourned for 400 years. The Exodus story is not only a metaphor for the escape from slavery to freedom; it is also a geographic journey that took the Hebrew people across the Sinai from Asia to Africa and back again. Over time, ancient Judea, Samaria, and Israel were conquered by the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, and Turks, among others. Throughout the centuries, the Hebrews had long and deep connections with Mediterranean, European, Asian and African cultures. Today, Israel is one of the most racially, ethnically, and nationally diverse countries in the world, with immigrants from over 70 countries. 

Even at their beginning, Jews were a blend of different groups. As Ephraim Isaac, Ph.D., the Ethiopian-born director of the Institute of Semitic Studies in Princeton, New Jersey, explains:

_Over two thousand years ago, the Jews were an ethnic group\but even then not a “perfect” one. Since then, Jews have intermingled with many nations and absorbed many proselytes. [c] The ancient Israelites were not a racial unit but a sacral association, called an amphictyony by some scholars. They were a people bound together by a common language, and common territory, similar historical experience, and common consciousness. The Ark of the Covenant was the main sacred cult object and formed the center of worship. They had a primary unit of social and territorial organization, [c] and extended family that was then patrilineal. [c] It is the centrality of concern for the Torah revealed on Mount Sinai and the great values of our heritage that bind us together as Jews._
The story of the Jewish people is filled with interracial and intercultural mixing. After all, Israel's greatest prophet, Moses, married Zipporah, an Ethiopian. Solomon and David each took wives from Africa. Joseph married an Egyptian-an African. While so much of contemporary Jewish consciousness comes from Eastern and Central Europe, Jews have deep roots in Africa, and later in the Iberian Peninsula.

From their original homes in Asia and Africa, Jews spread across the globe. The World Jewish Congress survey of the Jewish Diaspora indicated that by the mid-16th century, Jewish communities could be found in countries as far-flung as Jamaica, Brazil, Yemen, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Uganda, India, and China, as well as in many countries in Europe. Even today, the World Jewish Congress identifies 120 countries with a Jewish community and it does not include all that we know about.





What is so bad about this?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

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Actually, my family and ancestors are very diverse and include Mormons, Jews, Russian Orthodox, Unitarian, Norwegian, Welsh, Native American, And likely more.

I am quoting what others, Jews, have said.  I am not calling into question your ancestry or insulting you.  So stuff it.  If you have an issue take it up with the authors of the articles.  And no.  Those are not hate sites.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> The people here who work very hard to deny the Palestinians their identity are no different from their ideological opposites who put their energy into denying Jews their unique identity.



It's You moral relativism  that erases identities here., because You can't deal with distinction, You need it gray to not deal with reality.
We call things by their name

"PALESTINIAN" aka the Caliphate was here IDENTITY=

*Article Eleven:*
This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic *Sharia (law) *
and the same goes for any land the* Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.*

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The people here who work very hard to deny the Palestinians their identity are no different from their ideological opposites who put their energy into denying Jews their unique identity.
> ...


No. You do not call them by what they are.  You selectively choose what fits to deny them their identity.  Just like those who insist on calling Jews in Israel “European invaders”.

For whatever reason you and others can’t see fit to allow the othertheir identity.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Be'chol Lashon: About: The History of Jewish Diversity
> 
> The Jewish experience is built upon foundations of diversity as old as the Jewish people, a reality that may be lost to many Jews who tend to think of other Jews as being only like themselves. The historical home of the Jews lies at the geographic crossroads of Africa, Asia, and Europe. Jews are an amalgam of many peoples and Jewish origins include a multitude of languages, nations, tribes, and skin colors.
> 
> ...



Genetics used for political purpose is Eugenics.
You and most vile antisemites here have used it too much to be taken as anything other than that. Jews used to get into fights over such issues in every diaspora shithole they were thrown to.


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## fncceo (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Netanyahu’s suggestion that they should immigrate to France with anger, stating that they should not have to, they were as French as any Frenchman



That is very true. French Jews shouldn't feel the need for protection from antisemitism.  German Jews, Polish Jews, Russian Jews, no Jews at all should feel the need for protection against antisemitism.  But, the fact is ... for the past 2,000 years till today, Jews all around the world do need protection from antisemitism. 

In a decent world, Israel shouldn't need to exist.  But, it is obvious to anyone who understands that Israel must exist.  It is existentially imperative that Israel exist.  The antisemites and their enablers have made it imperative that it exist.

A French Jews is French.  A German Jew is German.  A Polish Jew is Polish.  A Russian Jew is Russian UNTIL ... those in power in that country decide they aren't and decide to repeat History yet once again.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
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> 
> > Be'chol Lashon: About: The History of Jewish Diversity
> ...



WTF?  I am not even using genetics!


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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Arab Jews?

Some Arabs have converted to Judaism, yes, but it is not the nearly 1,000,000 Jews who were forced out of Arab conquered lands.

Not one of them is "Arab".

And speaking Arabic, or living in a Arab conquered land, does not make anyone an Arab, unless one was originally from Arabia.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Kljjjjj
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Which religion are you?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
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> > Be'chol Lashon: About: The History of Jewish Diversity
> ...


I am sick and tired of you pulling the antisemitism card when someone disagrees.  It is like walking on eggshells trying to have a discussion.  I use sources, NOT hate sites, that are legitimate.  And the ultimate irony.. ?  You can’t even bring yourself to grant the Palestinians an identity as a people.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Oh wow.  A two liner.  Excuses moi.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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And I will ask again:

What is the Palestinian identity, especially when they built a Museum and managed to put absolutely nothing in it?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
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Agnostic I suppose.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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 Read again whatYou've just written.
My posts are detailed and extensive, and I don't need to links for that volume, I know my stuff.
On the other hand You base Your whole argument on short assumptions and look for articles to back it up later.

Here's an idea- Jews are people of literacy, READ SOME ORIGINALS before even touching on the subject, I can write a website claiming turtles are from Mars and some idiot will pick it up, to claim turtles are somehow discriminated, rings a bell?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Who are you to decide whether a people has an identity?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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You said you were deeply religious? So you are not or did I misunderstand?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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In other words, you cannot tell what the Palestinians identify as?

As eternal refugees (as long as Israel exists) ?
Creators of suicide belts?
People who go around attacking every Jew they find because their education tells them to do so?
Hijackers of planes and ships?
Murderers of Israeli Olympic Athletes?
Martyrs for the cause of Palestine, where bombing buses, Pizza parlors, clubs, etc is viewed as heroic?


That ......is their identity.  The one you do not seem to be able to acknowledge.


THEY have decided that THAT is their identity.

I did not.  Israel did not.

Their leaders did.  From Husseini to Abbas, to Hamas, and the Arab League.


And with only one goal, until they reach it.

Once they do, they will reinvent their identity and will call themselves something else.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
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I use sources to back up what I argue, because that is generally the proper thing to do.  You certainly used the Hamas charter as a frequent source.  I do not rely on one liners unless I am being deliberately pissy, and I genuinely avoid that with you a few others because though ?I don’t agree, I respect your views.

Here is an idea.  Apply the same standards and consideration you demand for Jews, to what constitutes a people to the Palestinians instead of going along with the “Arab Moslems” and “European Invaders” style of categorization.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
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No, I never said I was deeply religious.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

*This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.
*
They're the Caliphate, plain and simple.
Islamic foreign colonizers exactly as in Spain or any other country outside of Arabia.
BY THEIR OWN SELF- IDENTIFICATION


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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So you do not think the Palestinians are a people?  Do you think they have any rights then, since they are not a people in your view?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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My bad. You said not. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. Not Islamaphobia. It’s FU Radical Islam.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
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How many times are you going to post the same thing?

Islam foreign colonizers vs European invaders?  That is how you are choosing to define this then?


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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When Jews have a 2nd country....not 34th one.
We can apply same standards.

Meantime the Caliphate wants to eat the little we have, ending up with 3 Arab states out of territory that was alloted for our sovereignty.

No equivalence at all. Give us Medina back and we'll consider it a start of good negotiations, mkay?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
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Standards and rights are or should be applied equally.



Guess not.


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## fncceo (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> You can’t even bring yourself to grant the Palestinians an identity as a people



The '_identity' _of Palestinians is not a static definition. In Ottoman and British Palestine, a Palestinian was any inhabitant of the region ... Arab, Jew, Gentile, Druze, Buddhist, and Druid.

During the days of post-War settlement, the Arab Palestinians identified themselves as Arabs, to differentiate themselves from Jewish Palestinians.  They spoke Arabic.  Politically, they were members of the Arab League, the same Arab League that on their behalf rejected the UN offer of a Palestinian state in 1947.

In 1967, after the Arab League under the leadership of Abdul Nassir suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Israel Army, the Palestinians took on their own self-identity, as a separate people, similar in language, religion, and culture to the Arabs, but not Arabs -- but, who chose an Egyptian Arab to lead them.

The term Palestine isn't an Arab word.  The word can't be spelled in Arabic, which doesn't have a letter 'P'.  In fact, the term Palestine is Greek, a pejorative word play on Israel.  Israel means, literally, 'he that wrestled with an angel'.  The Greek word Palaistis for wrestler became the Roman's idea of a funny nickname for the Jewish kingdom.

So, it's safe to say, 'Palestinians' is a very difficult identity to accurately define.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
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Not when You demand a single Jewish state to be given to a 50 -"who knows what" Arab Islamic state.

Is this what You call equality?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
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Why won’t you admit that every mostly Islamic country is primitive and dangerous compared to western nations and Israel? Is that so difficult for you?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
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Twist and turn everything any one of us say because your are amazingly ignorant of what you are saying, and it only suits you to attacks us as if we believed that peaceful Palestinians do not have rights.

Peaceful Palestinians have the right that the non peaceful Palestinians are refusing to give them.  And that is the main problem, still and as long as leaders like Abbas are in power.

Apparently you truly do not know, or care, what the meaning of the word People, is.  Much less what make the Palestinian Arabs the only Arabs in the world who go out of their way to kill Jews at the rate that they do.

Oops!!!
Looks to me that the Warring Palestinian Arabs do not believe that the Jews are even Humans, and definitely do NOT have any rights.

Let me substantiate  what I said above with lists of all the attacks on Jews since 1920.
Look at how Arab Palestinians are taught that Jews are Humans, have rights, and have the right to live on their ancient homeland without being constantly attacked.....

List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia

List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia

Comprehensive Listing of Terrorism Victims in Israel



ARE  JEWS  HUMAN  ?

DO JEWS  HAVE RIGHTS?

DO  JEWS HAVE RIGHTS IN THE  MUSLIM WORLD?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.

Guess we can’t have any more Christian nation’s or Muslim nation’s even if there are legitimate groups wanting autonomy.  Too many of them.  The Buddhists and Jews have to catch up.  Oh and there are NO nations for Yazidi’s, B’hai, Zororastians, Pagans, Jains, or Mandaeans either.  I hope you are keeping a tally of all this (or is it only Muslim nation’s).


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.
> 
> Guess we can’t have any more Christian nation’s or Muslim nation’s even if there are legitimate groups wanting autonomy.  Too many of them.  The Buddhists and Jews have to catch up.  Oh and there are NO nations for Yazidi’s, B’hai, Zororastians, Pagans, Jains, or Mandaeans either.  I hope you are keeping a tally of all this (or is it only Muslim nation’s).



There isn’t one for Satanists either. Oh sorry we have 53 Muslim nations....


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Moral relativism is when You don't understand shit about the issue,
so You call things equal in order not to address anything in reality.

It's an art of keeping any situation in status quo no matter what.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.
> 
> Guess we can’t have any more Christian nation’s or Muslim nation’s even if there are legitimate groups wanting autonomy.  Too many of them.  The Buddhists and Jews have to catch up.  Oh and there are NO nations for Yazidi’s, B’hai, Zororastians, Pagans, Jains, or Mandaeans either.  I hope you are keeping a tally of all this (or is it only Muslim nation’s).



So in order to NOT have a Jewish state , one is ready to call some 60 nations out of existence?
Nice... sorry I didn't prepare my "surprised" look beforehand.

Yazidis state depends on the decolonization of Muslim forces.
Zoroastians as well. Pagans have a huge country and several others.
Others I don't know. Kurds need to decolonize Syria and Iraq as well for their independence....
Spain did that once, they're independent ever since. Greeks come to mind as well.

For Jews there's an opposite demand.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
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I have answered your three questions many times before.  Yes Unequivocally to the first two in addition I recognize their rights as a people.  As to rights in the Muslim world, depends on the country. I am not defending the actions of any country and it has no bearing on the rights of a people not in that country.

How about you?

ARE PALESTINIANS HUMAN?

DO PALESTINIANS HAVE RIGHTS?

DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PALESTINIANS RIGHTS AS A PEOPLE?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.
> 
> Guess we can’t have any more Christian nation’s or Muslim nation’s even if there are legitimate groups wanting autonomy.  Too many of them.  The Buddhists and Jews have to catch up.  Oh and there are NO nations for Yazidi’s, B’hai, Zororastians, Pagans, Jains, or Mandaeans either.  I hope you are keeping a tally of all this (or is it only Muslim nation’s).


Your ignorance on the subject is sorely shown in this post.

You know nothing about those religions, their culture, etc etc

You seem to continuously cry for one people who keep going out of their way to destroy and kill another people who happen to be living on their own ancient homeland .....because......their religion has been teaching them that it should be that way.....for the past 100 plus years.

You do not see that both members of Islam and Christianity, from all they have been fed for the past 2000 years, can only accept the Jewish people as being under their feet.

Stop talking about things you have no understanding of, at all.

This thread was started to discuss why the Palestinians should or should not get any funds from the US, and for that matter, anywhere in the world.

We have all explained why we are for defunding the Palestinians.

We are equally for sanctioning Iran, and any other territory or country which does as much damage and insists in such behaviors, that other countries must act accordingly to try to stop that behavior.

Let us not turn any of it into.....the Palestinians are not a people, or any other excuse to keep giving UNWRA, BDS and all other forms of attacks against Jews a legitimacy they do not deserve.

Those organizations, and the Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians have only one goal.

DESTROY   ISRAEL

Take the land back into Muslim hands.

No need to discuss anyone's identity or the lack of it.

The Arabs who have lived in the Mandate and now have governments in Gaza and Ramallah, have this written on their charters, spread in their school curriculum, media, even their map of the State of Palestine tells us what their identity is.

A world without Israel.


Period.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.
> ...



You are the one who decided there needs to be some sort of equivalency system based on religion.  I have no issue with a Jewish majority state.  I support it.  It is viable, running well and has a reasonable degree of human rights, democratic values and judicial accountability.  I just don’t happen to believe that a people’s rights should be dependent on some sort of cosmic religious tally where nations are carefully checked off to make sure all have an equally number of states demographically assigned to them.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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ARE PALESTINIANS HUMAN?  Yes

DO PALESTINIANS HAVE RIGHTS?  Yes

DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PALESTINIANS RIGHTS AS A PEOPLE?  Yes



Now, ask the Arab League and the Arab leaders in Gaza and Ramallah, the questions I put above.

And ask them, if we Jews are people, and we have rights, and they recognize the Jewish People's rights as a People, then why do they continue to incite in every possible way against Israel and against any and all Jews, having the right to live on any part of their ancient homeland, as they have been doing since 1920?

Let me know the answer to the questions when you get any answer from them.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.
> ...



Your ignorance is apparent in your unwillingness to consider that other points of view may have validity.

Of course you are for defunding the Palestinians.  And I showed you how, for every reason you gave, there were other nations with similar issues or who were getting even more funding, , who were not defunded.  In example after example, Palestinians were uniquely singled out for defunding. If it were Israel, you would call it anti Semitic.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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It is not amazing that you did not get what Rylah meant by how many nations any religion should have.

But.....


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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It does not matter what they think in terms of whether a people is a people.  They do not have to be likable, cuddly or cute to have a national identity.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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It is not amazing that you base a people’s rights on how many nations their religion happens to dominate.  I have never heard this argument made in any other area.


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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Here we go again... but You have no problem with a Muslim state on behalf of a Jewish one.
You just don't happen to believe that belief is solid for something You believe is right or wrong....

I just don't know how to deal with that kind of ... circular wisdom.
Sort out Your beliefs then, when they're solid, we might discuss actual facts.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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So, you do not know the facts of life......

And I am ignorant....

So be it.....

At least I am an ignorant person who knows what the Billions of dollars and Euros have contributed towards making the world less safe, because the Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians continue to be given a green light to attack Jews not only in Israel, but all over the world.

Keep UNWRA and the continuous curriculum of hatred for Israel and Jews.
SURE......that kind of curriculum exist in Tibet, and North Cyprus and many other countries against the other side.

Sure it does.......I have not seen it, but if you think that this kind of thinking and behavior actually exists with other conflicts and aid to those should also be cut, I am all for it.

Lets cut any and all aid to any and all occupations (Britain alone has 15 colonies), and lets see if brings us closer to peace in the world.

Poor Palestinians.  They did not know that the Husseini Clan was going to 
dump them into a world of hell in 1920.

Had they known, they would have never had migrated to the Mandate, much less stayed around.

With friends like the Arab League, who needs enemies?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.
> ...



Kurds are Muslim, along with other religions...who would they decolonize?  Pagans would have to decolonize much of Europe and the Americas.  Jains are screwed as Hindus predate them.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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When did I ever say such a thing.

Time out for you.......

maybe then you will come to understand what we are actually saying, not what you seem to think we are saying


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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I am not sure exactly what you mean by that.

Are you saying that a two state solution is unacceptable?  That a Palestinian state alongside a Jewish state is unacceptable (assuming peace is negotiated)?


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## rylah (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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Kurds are ethnicity, Jews are ethnicity.
Pagans, Christians and the cockroach worshippers are not.  Yet You have no problem with cokroach worship-like states.
Just the Jewish one.

It's sunrise here, I go to pray.
Later.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Then WHY do you keep bringing up the number of Muslim states if that is NOT what you are saying?

What you seem to be saying is that there can be no Palestinian state as long as there is only one Jewish state and upteen Muslim states.  If that is NOT what you are saying why the insistence on it?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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What we have said, and will continue to say.....

Is that the Arab Palestinian leaders and the Arab League do not ever want a Palestinian state ONLY with the land they have now.

They want everything left after the Hashemites got TransJordan.

And THAT is ALL of what is WEST of the Jordan River.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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No.

What we keep saying is that the Muslims have over 50 countries from lands they have conquered.

And if their life depends on it, the Jews will never be allowed to keep their ONE State, because Islam does not allow the Jews to be sovereign on land once conquered by Muslims.

Is that clear enough for you, now?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
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I do not have a problem with a Jewish state as I have repeatedly said, so stuff it. I just fail to understand YOUR insistence that a Palestinian state can not also exist or that it can ONLY exist at the expense of a Jewish state.  I disagree with you on that.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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What does that even have to do with anything?

I don’t support the demise of Israel.  Are we clear on that?

I support the rights of the Palestinian people to have their own state or some system of autonomy that does not include the destruction of Israel.  Are we clear on that?

I support the recognition of Palestiniansas a people.  Are we clear on that?

I support the recognition of Jews as a people.  Are we clear on that?

None of the above is dependent on how many countries Muslims happen to have.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Actually Palestinians have long supported a two state solution.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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And here is another example on how amazingly dense you are.  Sorry.

The Jews have always said ok to having an Arab state along a Jewish one.  From 1937 on, when the British started pushing it in order to put an end to the attacks.

The Arabs will always reject any peace with Israel.  They want the whole land.

They cannot allow Jews to be sovereign of any land, especially with Muslims being not the ones in power and in Government, as it is in Israel.

You can support the recognition of both people all you like.

The Arab Muslims who started the war against the Jews and any Jewish State in 1920, do not, and will not, as long as endless money keeps coming their way.

Take the number of Muslim states out of your mind.


It is about the existence on ANY  Jewish state on any part of land once conquered by Muslims, any Muslims.

Which explains why for 700 years, the Arabs never rose against the Turks.

But bring the Jews to become sovereign over their own ancient homeland......


Hell broke loose.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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They have not.
It is nothing but a ruse for the Jews to keep giving up their own land and trade it for peace that the Palestinians have no intention of agreeing to.....as long as Israel exists.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


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Yes.  They have.  According to polls done on Palestinians.  But hell, your mind is made up.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Polls mean nothing.

Their leaders are in command of everything and they are never going to give up destroying Israel as long as they have all the money in the world and weapons to keep doing it.

Do you not understand who is in charge?  And whose decisions matter?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Again.  What does that have to do with what I just said?  And I am confused as to what your position actually is because you seem to contradict yourself.

It sounds as if you are saying that a Palestinian State and a Jewish state can not both exist.

If that is the case than what the heck do you propose as a solution?


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Then why are you punishing the Palestinian people when they have no effect on what their leaders do?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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One more time:

Arab Palestinians, as well as many other Arabs and Muslims......

Cannot allow a Jewish State to exist on any land once conquered by Muslims.

Therefore, if Arabs have their way, someday Israel will be destroyed and all that will be left is a Palestinian State, if that is what their leaders are going to continue to wish to call it.


What is the solution of giving money endlessly to a people whose leaders want to see the end of a country so that their own can exist?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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The Palestinian Leaders are the ones punishing their powerless people.
That is how it works in any dictatorship.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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*So what do you propose as a solution then if it isn’t two states or some other form of autonomy?  *


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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One more time.  

Removing humanitarian aid directly punishes the people.  WE control the aid. 

Since you have said the people have no effect on their leaders why do you support punishing them?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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With the current leaders and the mentality they continue to foster.....

There is no solution with all the Billions pouring into Gaza and the PA from Iran, Qatar, the EU, etc.   Not one of them is working for solving the two state solution.
They are giving them money to make sure the Palestinians do one day succeed in destroying Israel, one way or another.
Israel gave up Gaza for peace.   Victory for them.
They hope Israel will continue to give up more land and more rights, until there is none.
Victory.

To keep feeding the beast hoping that it will change its stripes.......does not work.

So, one needs to take away those stripes, one by one, and show the beast that the only way is to be like everyone else and seek peace.

Take away the Billions, and it will be like Egypt and Jordan.  It will need to come to the table to negotiate, for peace.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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So yo DO think a two state or some similar autonomy is a possible solution then if you can bring them to the table?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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That is the way it is, Coyote.

Should the Allies felt sorry for all the Germans with all the sanctions they imposed on the Nazis?
Or the Japanese people because the Emperor chose war?

That is what happens in war.

The Israeli people have been suffering because the Arabs chose war on the Jews and Israel.   But they are willing to suffer what comes, because they know what the consequences of not holding on and fighting is.  Death and the destruction of Israel.

On the Arab side, it is not about survival. 
It is about conquest and power and the need to conquer that little bit of the Mandate that escaped the Arabs.

They want that slice of the pizza.  And their people are used to kill, injure, steal, any part and all parts of what is Israel.

Two people, two totally different reasons as to why they exist, and why each struggles to be.


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## Coyote (Sep 27, 2018)

I don’t think Egypt and Jordan are comparable.  Both were already autonomous countries and along with Israel, all three were ready for peace and the right leaders to get it done were in place.  Nofinancial aid was involved.  Unfortunately I do not see leaders of that caliber today among the Palestinians or in Israel.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


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In a hundred years, maybe.

If the new leaders want peace with Israel.

If they are willing to negotiate.

If the Billions given are taken away.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I don’t think Egypt and Jordan are comparable.  Both were already autonomous countries and along with Israel, all three were ready for peace and the right leaders to get it done were in place.  Nofinancial aid was involved.  Unfortunately I do not see leaders of that caliber today among the Palestinians or in Israel.


Both Egypt and Jordan were part of the Arab League which wanted Israel destroyed and the land being given back to Muslims.

Exactly, no financial aid was involved, so once the countries found themselves in trouble, the leaders were wise enough to say Enough war, the people and the country were more important.

And they came to the table and negotiated.

Take all the financial aid from the Palestinians and see what happens.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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It is war.

That is how war works.

The Romans wanted to defeat the Jews.

They cut all ways for them to survive in Masada.

And then, one day the Romans broke through and conquered Masada.

War.

One side loses.

One side wins.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 27, 2018)

(video online)


This kind of explains why those paraded as “peace activists” (like ‘Shirley Temper‘) don’t seem “peaceful” at all.

If that’s their definition of “peace”, this mindset sounds a lot like that of Islamists from the time of the Arab conquests in the Middle Ages (after they expelled non-Muslims from Arabia and later started expanding outside of Arabia and they even went to Spain). They declared areas that they didn’t rule “Dar Al-Harb” (translation: House of War), and started waging war on those around them and after violently subjugating, enslaving and expelling others, declared areas they conquered “Dar Al-Salam” (translation: House of Peace), even though they weren’t “peaceful” at all.

(full article online)

What Do Palestinian Propagandists Actually Mean by “Peace”?


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> They all have holy sites.



So easy to have a holy site when you can just steal it from another people.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Jews are an amalgam of many peoples and Jewish origins include a multitude of languages, nations, tribes, and skin colors.
> 
> 
> 
> What is so bad about this?



Um.  Because its completely, totally and insultingly wrong.

The Jewish people are not an amalgam of many peoples.  They are one single, existing people who have, through miracles (!), managed to retain their culture, customs and traditions despite ethnic cleansing from their indigenous territory by invaders and the constant pressure to assimilate and erase their culture, customs and traditions, even in the face of pogroms, persecution, discrimination, forced conversion, expulsions and genocide.  The Jewish origins do NOT include a "multitude" of languages, nations, tribes and skin colors.  (Bringing up that last is gross, btw).  The Jewish origins are a single, united, unified origin with ONE language and ONE nation and ONE land.  

When you talk about Arab Palestinians you mostly make sense.  But, wow, when you start talking about Jews, its ugly.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
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What nobody ever mentions is that without Israel the Palestinians would not need aid.

You see that all over the world. A people can live in a place for a thousand years. Foreigners show up and the next thing you see is aid. They never needed it before.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
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This whole argument is so stupid.

The Palestinians do have a viable national identity.

They are citizens of Palestine. Nothing else is needed.


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## rylah (Sep 28, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
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Let's pretend Arabs didn't ruin their lives by going out to murder Palestinian Jews...
With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.

If Arabs weren't so dumb they'd join and support Israel in their struggle for independence and territory, we'd all have villas and lands for our herds by now. The decision to become welfare frauds was totally a coordination between the Arab states and the UN, an excuse to keep *financing the same war that failed them.*

Let's not pretend that the rest of the Arab world is a flourishing oasis - *they're dysfunction and unstable societies to the core*, though You'd like to blame all life's mystery on the Jews, Israel has nothing to do with their impotence as a society, they're just the same as all other badly neglected Arab shitholes.

And yes they will sacrifice everything to keep them shitholes -
 WHY? Pictures of poor impoverished Arabs generate billions of "aid" into Hamas and PLO personal pockets. Prolonging the misery of their people is their main (if not only) source of income.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

rylah said:


> With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.


With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

What is your point?


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## rylah (Sep 28, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.
> ...


Israel is a lucrative invention hub, a real magnet for investments and returns, it has proven itself more than any Arab, or Western state that have much more available resources.
On the other hand it's pretty funny when generational welfare frauds call others moochers.
You don't get more shadow projection than that.

What did Arabs generate from their US aid?


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## Hollie (Sep 28, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
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Your usual appeal to an invented national identity tied to a "country" you invented that has never existed.


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## rylah (Sep 28, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.
> ...



My point is simple - establish direct connections on the ground, work on specific projects under survailance of progress. Demand time frames for each program, de-fund everything that ends up in Hamas personal account.
The US and the recipients would be able to get more results and respect, when people see direct investments in their future, instead of  simply providing for failed governments.

Establish a relationship on the ground, not through NGO, but directly - and work from there  bypassing the dysfunctional Jihadi organizations (aka Palestinian governments).

Isn't that more practical?


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## rylah (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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Ok, the word state is what is getting You all mixed up here.
There can't be a unified state, not because it's bad or good, it's the natural reality of the society.
One of  the problems of European involvement in the middle east is that the drew borders around totally divided groups, hoping they'll sing kumbaya, neglecting that they've been in mutual rivalry for at least a millennial.
Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Libya can't hold those societies under (very poor) control without internal war.
You suggest a state - I hear "_Let's add oil to the fire, push them at each others' throats by attempting to squeeze them like a tuna canned fish"_. It's counterproductive and damaging.

Look at the tribal divisions in Yemen, Iraq...any of the failing shitholes. Then look at how successful Arab states look regarding their social boundaries.

You don't solve anything by motivating several hostile tribes to form a unified control over a piece of land.
It only exacerbates the problem.

If You're still interested in the topic other than telling us who You beleive Jews to be, we could actually find a set of more productive conducts regarding those investments in the society.
You could even send some to Your congressman giving them an opportunity to develop a more wise plan, preferably less expensive - who wouldn't buy into a more effective and cheap way to produce results on the ground?

I don't' care what You guys think, the US and Israel too will win from that. It's just important to make sure that the AID doesn't reach channels hostile to both. I think it's only fair for an investor to expect  that his contribution no to be used against his positions. *The way it is done today hurts all 3 parties.*


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

rylah said:


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You are ducking my post.


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## rylah (Sep 28, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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Am I?
You just don't want to discuss anything constructive, just want the *aid flow with no results or obligations.* For You it's all Jews to blame and end of story.


Read it again and answer the question. For once care about Palestinians more than You hate Jews. And let's discuss something like normal adults, without You suggesting that *I must be killed *for them to prosper.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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OK, look at the facts.

Without Israel, the Palestinians would need no aid.

Israel controls all aid. Nothing is allowed outside the bantustans and Israel limits that going to inside the bantustans.

IOW, the Palestinians have no say in their own economic development.

On the other hand, Israel has been living on OPM for over a hundred years.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
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Irrelevant.


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## rylah (Sep 28, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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The difference is that Israel aid is regarded as an investment with returns,
Palestinian aid is regarded as money spent on hot air.

Some do others whine.
 Jews managed to be successful in any country, with much less than what the US spends on the Palestinians.
Always took care of their own by establishing independent international aid mechanisms involving all of Jewish communities worldwide - even when they had no country or autonomy.

Here's a fact - no Arab state has developed anything for the humanity (or themselves) for the last 100 years, in spite of having 3rd of worlds wealth.
*
Q. How much more aid can change that?*
*Q. What is the proportion of Arab aid to **Palestine** vs US aid?*


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## TNHarley (Sep 28, 2018)

Yall still talking about aid to a bunch of third world terrorists?


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## rylah (Sep 28, 2018)

TNHarley said:


> Yall still talking about aid to a bunch of third world terrorists?



Not  really , it's just Jewish conspiracies now, no one gives half a dump about the aid.
Act surprised...


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

rylah said:


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Nice deflection.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Actually Palestinians have long supported a two state solution.




yes -- the state of Palestine and the state of Jordan.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Palestinians have long supported a two state solution.
> ...


 No, actually, Israel and Palestine.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > rylah said:
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One of the complaints and justifications for ending aid was that the Palestinians received far more aid than other poorer countries in worse circumstances such as Eritrea.  Yet, While the Palestinians receive aid in the billions, the far more prosperous and economically thriving Israel receives non-military aid in the billions.

Aid is based in part on need.  Do you see the irony here and the reason why aid to Israel is brought up?  They don’t need our aid.  Why not give it to Eritrea?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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A lot of corruption with Hamas and Fatah. They live like kings. People live like paupers. You need to open your eyes.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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And if this creates a humanitarian crisis in the meantime?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
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> > rylah said:
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I have pointed out corruption before.  In fact, I pointed out that this is a huge problem world wide with aid...getting past governments and to the people who need it.  So Palestine is being singled for things that apply to quite a few aid recipients.  Why?

My eyes are open, are yours?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Then why oppose BDS given that rational?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
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Because they get the most and share the least. And because the majority of the world still despises those “dirty greedy Jews”. It behooves them to continue to show Palestinian people as poor and oppressed by Israel when they are really oppressed by Hamas, Fatah and Radical Islam.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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The humanitarian crisis is caused by the leaders.
The leaders take most of the money and give nearly nothing to the people. 
That is the case in every dictatorship.

Why continue to feed the dictatorship with the excuse that the population is going to suffer, when they were suffering even before the aid, and will continue to do so with all the money pouring into the pockets of their leaders and all other wealthy guys?

Nothing changes for the population, aid  or no aid.

They are used as an excuse for others to give aid, which in the case of the Palestinians, is used to buy weapons and other means to attack Israel and its civilian population.

Number of bomb shelters in Gaza and the PA territories with the Billions they have received?

ZERO.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
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Sixties Fan said:


> Why continue to feed the dictatorship with the excuse that the population is going to suffer, when they were suffering even before the aid, and will continue to do so with all the money pouring into the pockets of their leaders and all other wealthy guys?


Before Israel, the Palestinians did not need aid.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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Your question does not make sense.

And the BDS movement is aimed at Israel, and Israel only, and not at all the countries which have colonies and people who suffer one way or another under one regime or another.

BDS movements against China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, the UK, France and many others, do not exist.

BDS is a movement against not only Israel, but against Jews all over the world, as attacks on Jews in Universities, their businesses, their homes all over Europe and other places shows.

There is no such behavior against any dictatorship, not against Russia which took over Crimea, against any country with horrible humanitarian record, etc.

BDS is a Muslim war against Israel and the Jews.

When they stop wanting it all and want to come to negotiate, BDS will stop existing and use its resources for being constructive rather than destructive.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
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Sixties Fan said:


> And the BDS movement is aimed at Israel, and Israel only, and not at all the countries which have colonies and people who suffer one way or another under one regime or another.


BDS is a Palestinian call to end the occupation.

What other country is occupying Palestine?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Jews are an amalgam of many peoples and Jewish origins include a multitude of languages, nations, tribes, and skin colors.
> ...



I truly don’t understand your reaction except in one way, acknowledging any of this in any way feeds into certain ugly anti Semitic canards, because this seems like such an extreme reaction.

I Did not mean *Jewish origins,* which originated with one people in one area thousands of years ago, *but what there is today* and acknowledging that diversity should not be ugly and doesn’t make Jews any less a people or a shared culture so why do you label it ugly?  The people today are the result of a diaspora, which includes many other people from around the world in addition to the original Jews.  It is glorious in fact that a tiny group of people managed to survive, spread around the world, retain, sometimes in vestiges their culture and practices,  and then bring it all with them to Israel.  Today’s Jews are light skinned, dark skinned, blonde, brunette, red haired....what is WRONG with acknowledging that?  Why is it gross?  Are they any less Jewish if they don’t fit a stereotype?

Jews today include a multitude of languages that are not Hebrew.  In fact one obstacle to some in Aliyah is having to learn Hebrew.  There is ONE language that unites them as a people, but they bring many languages from the diaspora with them and diverse cultural traditions as well as the Jewish traditions they have in common with their fellow Jews.  Again why is acknowledging this and even celebrating it completely taboo, or as you label it ugly?

This makes discussing things like walking through a minefield.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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The three Abrahamic faiths are built upon one another, they have many sites in common.  Why the need to denigrate any of them?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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How is BDS directed against Jews all over the world?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> No, actually, Israel and Palestine.




Bull shit.

The Arabs could have had that MANY times, but walked away from it every time.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Easy. If I am walking down the street and see a BDS crowd, the last thing I am sharing with them is that I am a Jew.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

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Islam is the only one of the three that actually denigrates the other two in its texts.

Despite this, as an "Agnostic" you have devoted yourself to supporting Islam above all else in the world.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I actually agree with much of the above which is why I am open to other forms of autonomy.

On other hand, if you get offended at people at people “telling us what Jews are” then follow your own advice.  Stop telling us what Palestinians are.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Easy. If I am walking down the street and see a BDS crowd, the last thing I am sharing with them is that I am a Jew.




Like the antisemites in this thread -- they hate you because you are Jewish, but try to mask that hatred by claiming it is actually some sort of virtue.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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I am not offended. I laugh at them. I know who Palestinians are. People who elected a terror regime as their Gov't.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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So you can’t tell me how the BDS movement is targeting g Jewish enterprises around the world?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


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EXACTLY. If they were honest I would just shrug. But their deception irritates me.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Google is your friend. I will not do the research for you. 

Listen to this. It is very brief but poignant and I agree with it 100%


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

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The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), another organization dedicated to tracking and combating anti-Semitism, noted that the movement has gained traction on college campuses. They noted that there were 520 anti-Israel events on U.S. college campuses last year, and over half of these focused on BDS themes. These gatherings and forums often linked the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to other popular social justice issues like the Black Lives Matter 2 (BLM) movement. In these settings, BDS is promoted on campuses as a non-violent way to work for justice for the Palestinian people. Idealistic young adults are a key target for the efforts of BDS organizers.

It should come as no surprise that the primary drivers of this movement are a confederation of Palestinian groups.3 They’ve managed to gain support from a sizable number of international banks, trade unions, colleges (here in the U.S., most visibly, some of the University of California campuses), and the World Council of Churches.

(full article online)

What You Need To Know About The BDS Movement | Jewish Voice Ministries International

There is a need to note, that the many attacks on Jews in Europe (especially) in the past decade, are motivated by hatred of Jews in the disguise of hatred for Israel, all with the intention of making countries like France give in to the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian demands.

Jews from many European countries are being forced to immigrate, because of the threats and actual violence against them.

They are the only group of people being targeted on every continent, because they are Jews, because Israel exists.

BDS comes in many ways, but it is mainly Jews who are being targeted for violence and being forced to move from their homes anywhere in the world.

BDS does not target Russian students, Chinese students, Venezuelan students, or any other people who come from dictatorial countries with horrible humanitarian records.

Why is that?

Why was there BDS against the Jews in Germany and in the Mandate for Palestine, as well,  between 1920 and 1948?

Is BDS against the Jews of Palestine something new? No.

The organizers are not looking to change Israeli policies.
They are looking for Israel to give up any of its rights as a country and as a people, in order to someday have the land revert back into Muslim hands.

If you think that BDS is a righteous endeavor started by people who were actually suffering and wanted what was best for their people, you are 100% wrong.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I see.  You DEMAND answers to your questions, but won’t provide them in return.  To use your words...how rude.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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I don't demand anything. I just ask that you please be honest and admit your bias toward Islam over Judaism.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Did you listen to the video? What are your thoughts? I just gave you an example...UCLA.


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## Ecocertifmrl (Sep 28, 2018)

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How do you recognize a BDS crowd?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

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It is truly amazing how you are incapable of doing any research on the subject and not find anything about the endless efforts made in the name of Islam, not just the Palestinians, in order to attack Jews all over Europe (which has been all over the news)
just for being Jews, with the excuse of it being about Israel.

You do not wish to see how Islam, through BDS is attacking Jews in the US in colleges, making many fear for their lives, then where in the world do you live?

Jews only, Israeli or not, are made to feel uncomfortable going to some Universities in the US, and Canada, where anti Israel organizations, for the past 10 years, have been upping the rhetoric and venom against Israel and against all Jews with the excuse that they are actually anti Israel, and not anti all Jews.

And you cannot find anything about it on the internet?  In the news, anywhere?

Strong Ties Between International Aid Organizations and Terrorist Groups Make the Lives of Palestinians and Israelis More Miserable

Don't read it.

Faculty and BDS

Do not read it either.

Opinion | The B.D.S. Movement and Anti-Semitism on Campus

Feel free to not read.

WATCH: How BDS is Killing Discourse on Campuses

Maybe this one?



In other words, if one does not wish to educate oneself as to the true nature of an organization, what is there to do?


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## Ecocertifmrl (Sep 28, 2018)

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So you avenge that by blowing to pieces the daughter of the beggar beneath them? How does that work out?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

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You are sick.
The ones blowing innocent people on purpose are the Arab Muslim Palestinians.
They have no regard to life.  
They love being Martyrs.

But you have not noticed that and never will.

As long as it is Jews defending themselves.

Now, let us get back to the topic.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Then I would not be honest.  They are all roughly equal in my view with plenty of good and bad to go around.  What you don’t get is I oppose demonizing any religion in the dishonest and downright dangerous way we see all too often.  

You make a lot demands.  Like the one you just made.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I am not the ones making the claims Sixties, it is not MY responsibility to support the claims of others.


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## member (Sep 28, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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 _*". . .the Palestinians have no say in their own economic development..."*_


who has no say? 

  .. the theatre group people, the festival goers ?  _right._

those goofy leaders. it's hard to do bizness w/terrorists, you can't proceed w/any logical plan  



....the poor towns people are being held hostage.  hamass/abbass/officials.. 

 they don't seem to be very knowledgeable the fields of economic development or infrastructure issues......just good at being hateful terrorists + brainwashing kids in the worst way.  _whah_?  talk peace and logistics w/minds like that? 

IMPOSSIBLE. unless they 

 turn over a _new leaf_.  they need new non-terrorist leaders.


talk about a stalemate....


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

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Neo Nazis and this new brand of authoritarian leftist are standing in the same place when it comes to Jews .The only real difference is the way they couch their rhetoric ..Neo Nazis are direct and honest about it - at least in terms of placing their hatred to hi t out there .The regressive, on the other hand, are two faced, dishonest and manipulative about it .


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

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Showing Islam's true colors is demonizing it?

Why do you do that ?

We are not demonizing the innocent people who happened to be born into it. 

We are telling the truth about the policies of Islam against non Muslims, and especially against Jews.

Islam will not allow Jews to become sovereign of their own destiny on land they once conquered.

That is a fact.  Not demonization.

It is what has driven the Husseini Clan and many others to fight the creation of Israel and move into full out war in 1948 to destroy it after its Independence.

All you see, the boycotts, the suicide attacks, the fire and explosive balloons, everything has to do with Islam's intolerance of Jewish freedom.

If any and all the aid given to them by the US or anyone else was used in constructive way, as it is in most of the world and in Israel, I would have no issues with any aid to them.

But they use it, and all they get from Iran, Qatar, etc, to endlessly kill and destroy as much of possible of Israel, in order for the Jews today do what the Jews in Khaybar in the 7th Century did with Mohammad.  They had to give up and give themselves up.  They were murdered, put into slavery.  Their tribe destroyed.

That is what they follow.  The teachings of Mohammad, a conqueror who was only interested in others submitting to his will.

Below is what the new religion of Islam demanded of the Jews, who until then lived in peace with other tribes.
Why were all three Jewish tribes destroyed and enslaved or expelled, and Jews kept from living in Arabia from then on?
Why are Jews kept from living in TransJordan since 1925?
---------

The first migration of Jews to Khaybar dates back, by some accounts, to the time of king David,[1] others date it back to the time of Babylonian exile[2] The Jewish settlers of Khaybar were the descendants of Shephatiah the son of Mahalalel from the tribe of Judah[3] and some settlers were descendants of the Cohanim[4]
History of the Jews in Khaybar - Wikipedia
---------

Battle of Khaybar - Wikipedia


What happened in Arabia in the 7th century, is what today's Muslims, especially the Palestinians, wish to see happen to the Jews.


Everything Old Is New Again.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

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What is it that you do support?

That giving money to Israel is not all that good, but keeping money from Palestinians is really a disaster.

No, not one of us is surprised that you will not even bother to read or watch anything we post, which could someday broaden your horizons, even if they do not ever change your mind.

"The claims of others"

Noted.


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## Ecocertifmrl (Sep 28, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> [Islam will not allow Jews to become sovereign of their own destiny on land they once conquered.


It is not Islam that is against Jews - it is all in the Quran - but Palestinians. And lets not get into the rest of your bull$hit.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

Ecocertifmrl said:


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A person who knows the Quran.
And knows Palestinians and what they think and how they think and where their thinking comes from.

What a breath of fresh air


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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What did I demand? LOL


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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What are you talking about?


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## Ecocertifmrl (Sep 28, 2018)

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That if you blame hamas etc. For corruption and on that lalestinian's problems you moght stop killing the poor opressed palestinians who have no side.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Your "truth" is very one sided.  No religion is the simple black and white that is portrayed by its detractors.  You should know by what you see thrown at the Jews. But I dont want to go down this path, it is a discussion better suited to Religion and we would totally derail the topic here.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I have clearly stated what I do support.  Why do you need it repeated.  Your mind is  closed.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Did you watch the 2 minute video I posted? I am as religious as you are. This is pure culture for me. Any ideology where apostasy is punishable by death is insane. I think religion more often than not is just primitive.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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By the way Sixties do you EVEN bother to read before jumping in?  DO YOU?  HE made a claim. Then told me to google ffor material to support HIS claim.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Would you please quote my claim? What claim?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Where you said BSD targets jews all over the world.  I thought it was only Israeli enterprises.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Nope. I never EVER said that. Google "BDS College Campuses" and you'll see a plethora of evidence.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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My mistake, you are right.  It was another poster who said that and I got confused in the replies.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

Ecocertifmrl said:


> It is not Islam that is against Jews - it is all in the Quran - but Palestinians. And lets not get into the rest of your bull$hit.




The supremacist manifesto called the Quoran instructs followers not to take Jews and Christians as friends and encourages lying to them.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

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If there were any actual truth in your statement, then why don't your postings reflect it?

You have made many tens of thousands of postings in service to Islam, with hundreds, if not thousands of them demanding that people attack Christianity and Judaism whenever the subject involves Islam.  

If you truly saw them as equal, it would not be so obvious to all concerned that you always defend Islam.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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The topic is not about me.  Start one in the FZ if you wish to get personal and I will join you.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Back to the topic. As I tell my kids. Help yourselves don't rely on others. Palestinians need to help themselves. Vote Hamas out. Vote Fatah out. Prove that you can live in peace and then we can discuss a two state solution.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

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You have called me a liar several times in this thread for telling the truth.


You seem to consider telling the truth about your pattern of behavior an attack, yet have no qualms about calling others a liar when they tell the truth.

One truth is that "Palestinians" are an intentional invention created in order to manipulate people.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Palestinians are a people.  It is a shame you, Sixties and others cant see that as you apply the same tactics of disenfranchisement and delegitimization on them as the antisemites do on Jews.

You are no different then they.

Let me know when you want to duke it out in the FZ since you seem incapable of refraining from making the topic about me.

Good day


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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People who want Israel wiped off the face of the Earth.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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It is taboo, ugly and a minefield because of the antisemitic canard that Jews = Europeans. That claim is a claim used to prevent Jews from their rights to their indigenous homeland. 

Even something as seemingly simple as saying, "Jews are an amalgam of peoples" erases Jewish origins and history and the unified nature of the Jewish people.  It is used to do just that.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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Even this is disingenuous. The three faiths are not built on one another. They don't have sites in common.

Can you give me an example of a Jewish holy site which was built on top of a Christian or Muslim site? Without having a pre-existing Jewish site?


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

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Coyote said:


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i have no intention of going to the basement with you, Coyote. If you cannot handle the truth without becoming this hysterical, that is your problem, not mine.

The truth of the matter, is that "Palestinians" are an intentional fabrication created as a weapon against Israel, and they have NEVER been about creating a state. If that were true, they would have been lobbying for one between 1948 and 1967. The reason they didn't is that they were Arabs who saw themselves simply as Arabs.


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 28, 2018)

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How could a person who grew up in the United States even push that lie in the first place is what I wonder. It is such common knowledge in the States that Jewish people living in Europe kept to their own communities, married among themselves and followed their own culture that I would think only a foreigner growing up in an Islamic country would think otherwise.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

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You forget all the Palestinians like Linda Sarsour and others who have for the past 40 years been  passing false history and ideas about the Jewish people, especially about the Ashkenazi.   
So, no wonder that some Americans and Europeans will think that way.

The Labour party used to be pro Israel
The Democratic party used to be pro Israel.

They have managed to turn it around for now.

The time will come....


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## member (Sep 28, 2018)

Ecocertifmrl said:


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> > [Islam will not allow Jews to become sovereign of their own destiny on land they once conquered.
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_* ". . .it is all in the Quran. . ."*_



_are there _

_ pictures in the q'uran_?


what pages can we find ....passages that preach or "instructs".... ME to act this way?












 Aren't you sick and tired of crazy people holding up the q'uran and a bazooka gun - sending this underlying sinister message?  what the HECK is the world supposed to think ?  

 what page is that on ? the pawn[_poor_] palestinians....aren't you sick and tired of "their terrorist leaders" and their ways...  bomb kites. 

 insanity.  No wonder there has to be re-shaping of aid ......i _"ain't"_ paying for terrorist and their ...daily bomb needs....we know there are muslims who don't hold up the q'uran and a gun and dabble in terrorism.....why do they skip over that part....and go right to the ...diabolical part?  what page is that on again?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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You are obviously borderline retarded then.  Why don’t your use your much bragged upon Stanford educated brain?  Jews did what any other people would do in a diaspora that spread across the world.  They married outside their community.  If, for what, three thousand years or more this tiny group of people only married among themselves you would have the most inbred population earth and that is clearly not true. But keep on trying to make this personal, it is what you do best.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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Many became Christians as you know. Hitler killed approx 6 mil. It’s a culture not just a religion. I am as religious as you.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Of course you don’t.  You would much rather derail a thread while pretending to be on topic with your throw away lines because you are far to cowardly to take to the FZ where it belongs aren’t you?

And, like the antisemites you pretend to revile, you take a page right out of their books in denying the Palestinians their identity as a people...after all, as far as you are concerned all Arab cultures are the same from Morocco to Yemen to Egypt.  Why don’t you take a geography course and learn something for a change?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I happen to agree it is a culture.  What is your point?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 28, 2018)

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My point is we don’t blow up buildings, kill people for drawing cartoons or for leaving the religion or for being gay. Don’t put us on the same level as those who do.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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You know Shusha, maybe you ought to consider INTENT before just slamming something as ugly.  It IS possible to celebrate and admire the rich diversity of Jewish culture WITHOUT delegitimizing it as a culture! But I guess that is absolutely taboo around here.  And while you are at it, consider the INTENT of those who refer to Palestinians “Arab Moslems” and place that along side the words in your last paragraph.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Neither do most Muslims.  But hey, who cares about facts?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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You are correct.  What I should have said was Christianity was built upon Judaism and Islam was built upon Judaism and Christianity.  My bad.  I was attempting to point out the interrelatedness of the faiths.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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I don't know your intent. I can only read your words. 

People on this board regularly use the idea that Jews are nothing more than invading, colonizing Europeans All. The. Time. On this board. And in general. 

So when you type "Jews are an amalgam of many peoples and Jewish origins include a multitude of different languages, nations, tribes and skin colours" what should I consider your intent to be?  

Because that sounds eerily similar to my ears. It sounds like you are saying Jews are not A people but a mix of different people from all over the world who have a mix of different origins. 

That denies the common, indigenous heritage of the Jewish people.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Have I ever done that?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

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It is not that Jews did not get married with those outside their community, but it is that once in the Diaspora, especially, they did mostly marry within their own community, which is not to say that they were all related to each other, which they were not.

It is rare that outsiders entered the Jewish community via marriage, and yes it did happen, but not to the extent one may be thinking.

2)  The fact that Jews have lived all over the world and have lived amongst all of those different cultures, does not mean that they allowed themselves to assimilate into those cultures.  They were somewhat closed.  (Fiddler on the Roof, anyone? )

And if one considers how closed they were forced to be once Ghettos were created in Europe, then one can see that indeed they would not have married outside their communities, much less assimilated much of the culture which was outside that Ghetto.

And the same would be true in what we call the Middle East.

Why?  Survival of the Jewish religion, culture, and everything else which makes Judaism.

The Jewish experience is not like that of other peoples, exactly because they were always few, and were always being made to move if the host countries became dangerous for them.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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But this is exactly where you are, perhaps unwittingly, demonstrating a lack of sensitivity to the Jewish perspective (at best). 

The three faiths are NOT "interrelated" from a Jewish perspective. The Christian and Muslim faiths have borrowed from Judaism, corrupted it, changed it, added to it. 

But there is nothing in either Christianity or Islam that relates to Judaism from the JEWISH point of view. There is no two way street here. 

That does not mean cooperation and mutual respect can't happen. On the contrary, it is a tenet of the Jewish faith that the nations be welcome to pray in Jewish holy spaces and to acknowledge they will pray in their own way (with certain some very basic expectations). And that this is not only okay but correct. 

This is where I am trying to challenge you. Your wish for equality in all things actually keeps you from acknowledging wrongs committed to original peoples.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

If what makes a people a people is being bound by a common identifying culture, then what difference does it make if that people have a mixed heritage as long as they maintained that cultural integrity?  To put it bluntly (and I am sure I will get slammed yet again for saying it) that diversity is a reality.  Jews from around the world bring with them parts of that other world into their Jewish culture.  A tiny group of people could not survive thousands of years without marrying outside itself and no people can remain in a foreign culture for hundreds of years without adapting part of that culture.  But apparently to speak of it gets one labeled as antisemitic in this forum.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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Yep. I'm saying you are doing it in this conversation. Or at least close enough that I'm calling you out on it.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> If what makes a people a people is being bound by a common identifying culture, then what difference does it make if that people have a mixed heritage as long as they maintained that cultural integrity?  To put it bluntly (and I am sure I will get slammed yet again for saying it) that diversity is a reality.  Jews from around the world bring with them parts of that other world into their Jewish culture.  A tiny group of people could not survive thousands of years without marrying outside itself and no people can remain in a foreign culture for hundreds of years without adapting part of that culture.  But apparently to speak of it gets one labeled as antisemitic in this forum.



Because it becomes perilously close to the "not real Jews" argument. 

Let me put it another way. Why bring up Israeli diversity?  What's the point?  If you agree that there is a unifying Jewish culture -- why bring up diverse culture at all in the context of this discussion. This discussion is about accepting EACH peoples self-identification as a unique peoples with strong culture, customs and traditions. 

So why not stick with that?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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Then I am done with discussion with you,  Because I have never called or implied that they are invaders. 

Good day.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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No you have not. 

But you ARE using the same foundational argument.

And then expect me to assume good intent from you where there is ill intent from others. 

I'm just suggesting you not use that foundational argument.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
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> > If what makes a people a people is being bound by a common identifying culture, then what difference does it make if that people have a mixed heritage as long as they maintained that cultural integrity?  To put it bluntly (and I am sure I will get slammed yet again for saying it) that diversity is a reality.  Jews from around the world bring with them parts of that other world into their Jewish culture.  A tiny group of people could not survive thousands of years without marrying outside itself and no people can remain in a foreign culture for hundreds of years without adapting part of that culture.  But apparently to speak of it gets one labeled as antisemitic in this forum.
> ...



I don’t remember what caused it to be brought up in the first place because this thread has rambled all over, but my reason saying what I do is I admire cultural richness and diversity.  I don’t happen to see it as a negative nor do I see it as negating a people’s unique cultural identity, quite the opposite.  Yet you keep insisting that is what it does. Culture is not a static thing.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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You and I have argued for several years.  I thought you would have known me better after all this time.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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Well remember that I am used to wandering in this swampland of ugliness that is I/P. 

If you want not to be part of that swampland (and I know that you are not), just be sensitive to calling attention to Jews as "foreigners". Thats all I'm suggesting.


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## Shusha (Sep 28, 2018)

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It's because I trust you that I feel comfortable challenging you to see a very nuanced and subtle side of the narratives.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 28, 2018)

Coyote said:


> If what makes a people a people is being bound by a common identifying culture, then what difference does it make if that people have a mixed heritage as long as they maintained that cultural integrity?  To put it bluntly (and I am sure I will get slammed yet again for saying it) that diversity is a reality.  Jews from around the world bring with them parts of that other world into their Jewish culture.  A tiny group of people could not survive thousands of years without marrying outside itself and no people can remain in a foreign culture for hundreds of years without adapting part of that culture.  But apparently to speak of it gets one labeled as antisemitic in this forum.


We have never said that non Jews did not marry into Judaism for the past 3500 years.
And we have never said that other cultures did not influence at one time or another one group of Jews or another around the world.

That has nothing to do with most Jewish people being indigenous to the land of Israel, where they originated.

All still carry studying the Torah, the same covenant with their G-d and keeping nearly the same habits, and of course they will adapt or create new foods, clothes, etc, based on the how long they spent in any part of the world and which people or invaders they had to deal with.

Still, there is a huge history, cultural norms, etc which are basically Jewish.

I still would like to know what makes the Palestinians Palestinians, different from every other Arab groups.  They are different Arab tribes, with different norms, etc. put together because they ended up being in Mandate Palestine in 1948.

What is different about them, which separates them culturally, artistically, musically, etc from all other Arabs?

And I still would like to know, if they indeed do have an identity, why has it not been displayed in the Palestinian Museum?

They have had 100 years to choose from.
(Abbas will say 10,000 years, but.....where is it?)

And to turn this back to the topic of the thread......

Why should the US, or any other  give any money to those who are clearly terrorists, and not willing to come to the table and discuss a peace treaty?

A peace treaty which would only make the lives of their population better, put an end to the waste we keep seeing, in education, in resources, in lives.

Why are Hamas and the PLO so against co-existing with Jews, normalizing relations with Israel and Jews, that they punish their population with death, sometimes, if they sell their homes or lands to Jews?


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I look at it from an outside and historical perspective, and none of them are two way streets.  We have talked about it before, pretty much every religion is built upon older faiths and their stories, even Judaism.  I agree on the primacy of the fundamental rights of Jews to their sacred places, with the caveat that for those succeeding faiths who have also made those spots sacred, that their rights of access also be protected.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I can attempt to do that.


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## Coyote (Sep 28, 2018)

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I accept the challenge then.

It is extremely hard not to be over sensitive in a place like IP because there are more people who’s focus is attacking others rather than attacking arguments and it goes downhill very quickly from there. I don’t react well to that.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


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Dogmaphobe said:


> and they have NEVER been about creating a state. If that were true, they would have been lobbying for one between 1948 and 1967.


They did. The Palestinians declared independence in 1948.

You need to keep up.


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## Ecocertifmrl (Sep 29, 2018)

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> > It is not Islam that is against Jews - it is all in the Quran - but Palestinians. And lets not get into the rest of your bull$hit.
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Quote that part. good luck!


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 29, 2018)

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Quran 5:51  "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." 

Quran 5:80  _"You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." _

Quran 3:28  _Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..."

Quran 3:118  Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..."

those are just some. 
_


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## Dogmaphobe (Sep 29, 2018)

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You attack me in post after post while claiming I am making the thread about you.

You call me a liar for daring to tell the truth.

You accuse me of being some sort of Nazi while promoting Jews as Europeans themes ONLY found at neo Nazi and Islamist hate sites.



These does seem to be quite the pattern here, and I doubt that I am the only one seeing it.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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Dude, for the upteenth time, I am not going to argue this here, I said take to the FZ if you want to continue this.  Stop stalking me here.
*
I am also going to point the rules.  There is no rule against personal attacks except in Zone 1.  The rules state that posts need to include  content related to the discussion in addition to any flames, which you seem to know, since you have done so as have I.

So take to the FZ if you continue down this road. Period.*


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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Because the return will be greater in Israel.
In Hamas, PLO and URNWA  in the long run, it is, and will be used against the US and its' own people in most of the cases.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

There are plenty of reasons to give aid.  Humanitarian needs are only one.  

One might ask what the purpose is in giving aid to the PA or Gaza.


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


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The usual impotent retread in the face of hard questions.

What results have Hamas and PLO generated out of the aid? Bigger personal bank accounts?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 29, 2018)

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Deflection.


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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I will tell who the Palestinians are,
because I'm member of a family that lived here long before that legal fiction was created , I'm also a Jew.
You're neither and should be educated.


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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So I guess none, thanks for confirming the obvious - Palestinian aid is generating impotency.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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That does not mean you are right, only that you have one point of view, shaped by your experiences and outlook.  You are denying that anyone else can possibly have that when they disagree with you.

Are you a Palestinian Arab?  If not, using your logic, what claim do you have for being the authority on them?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> There are plenty of reasons to give aid.  Humanitarian needs are only one.
> 
> One might ask what the purpose is in giving aid to the PA or Gaza.


I agree, It is only one of many.  Not so aid goes to Hamas or PA.  Aid goes to fund hospitals and education for example.  Also agricultural enterprises and cross cultural programs.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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So Eritrea, a country brought up as in extreme need is less deserving than Israel in terms of aid?  One of the arguments brought up against Palestinian aid was they got too much, and other countries deserve more. Israel  gets aid in the billions. Why not give some to Eritrea?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Can anyone find an article or video where the PA or Hamas say they wish to become self-reliant?

Eritrea aspires to be self-reliant, rejecting foreign aid - Los Angeles Times


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Can anyone find an article or video where the PA or Hamas say they wish to become self-reliant?
> 
> Eritrea aspires to be self-reliant, rejecting foreign aid - Los Angeles Times




Hmmm...has Israel rejected foreign aid?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

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> ...


It will, when the Palestinians put down their Charters of destruction of Israel and finally decide to co-exist with their hated Jews.

You ask the wrong questions.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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Israel has no need of foreign aid from us.  They have yet to reject, and yet you think the Palestinians should?

I think reducing or altering aid in a strategic fashion is useful, but that is not what is happening.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

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Let us look at what will happen once the US stops any aid to Israel and it cannot find another country to give it the same, or is unable to build the military power it needs:

1) Iran has thousands upon thousands of rockets in South Lebanon (where Hezbollah has taken over the Lebanese people's land and homes and hid thousands of its weapons )aimed at Israel.

2) Iran has been attempting to have a base in Syria with military power and personnel.

3)  Iran will continue to send weapons to Gaza, so that Hamas and others will use them to attack Israel.

4)  Without Israel's military power, the Sunni countries (Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others will be at the hands of Iran, as they are unable to defend themselves against the military power we know that country has)

5)  Without Israel's military power Iran, or Russia, or both will go ahead and take over any part of the Middle East they have been eyeing.

6) Without Israel's military power, the possibility of WWIII is definitely closer, if not 1005 definitive, because Iran and Russia will do all they can to conquer any and all territory they think should be under their hands.

7)Without Israel's military power, Hezbollah and Hamas plus others, will launch a total rocket attack which will reach all over Israel, destroying and killing anyone in their path.
And yes, it will include any and all Arab Muslims, Christians.  The Druze, the Beduin, and all others, just as it has happened before during past wars with Lebanon, and what Hamas has been doing lately.


Questions:

Will you continue to want the US to fully stop its aid to Israel?

Without Israel being there to  deter, stop Iran and others from taking over the Middle East, and then Europe and the world, if they can......

Who is going to do it?

Will the US, and its allies, then have to go on the ground with its troops, or simply attack Iran and others via airplane?

What ideas do you have which will keep that area safe and keep it from having its fuse lit into WWIII?

Will defending against Iran and others directly be less expensive to the US than giving military aid to Israel ?


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I think reducing or altering aid in a strategic fashion is useful, but that is not what is happening.



Strategic aide to Palestine?  What would you see as a useful way of reducing or altering aide to Palestine?


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## RoccoR (Sep 29, 2018)

RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
You have to remember the ※→  Coyote, et al,

You have to remember the purpose of Foreign Aid _(all types of assistance: military security, medical emergency, and disaster relief, human development and  agricultural, etc)_ is a diplomatic tool that furthers US Influence in pursuit

All forms Foreign Aid _(economic, industrial, developmental assistance, humanitarian and security assistance, etc, etc, etc)_ is a tool that the US can use to advance its *foreign* policy interests and to implement the American Interests... 

✪  *IF* the aid does not further US Interests,
✪  *THEN* the aid becomes of not value,
*∴* *THERFORE* the aid should be discontinued.

✪  *IF* the aid does not induces hamful effects on an ally,
✪  *THEN* the aid becomes counterproductive,
*∴* *THERFORE* the aid should be discontinued.​


Coyote said:


> Israel has no need of foreign aid from us?


*(COMMENT)*

Israel is an ally of the United States; whereas the Arab Palestinians of the West Bank _(including Jerusalem)_ and the Gaza Strip have not demonstrated their characteristics of an ally in over half a century. 

US Foreign Aid does not promote a corrupt government in Israel; whereas, Foreign Aid to the Arab Palestinians seems to prop up the corrupt quasi-governments of Gaza and Ramallah leadership; contributing to the further progress of regional Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters.



Coyote said:


> I think reducing or altering aid in a strategic fashion is useful, but that is not what is happening.


*(COMMENT)*

“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”
............................................................................................― _Leo Tolstoy_​Granted, that is not what is happening.  This notion that America "has to be an honest broker" and not show favoritism, is nonsense.  If you have an ally, you support that ally; not their enemy.

America should not stop supporting its ally, just because the pro-Arab Palestinian proponents do not wish to preserve the Jewish State.  The alliance with Israel is NOT an inconvenient political position; we should never think that.  It is who we are → and our word _(both as a nation and a people)_ means something.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> You have to remember the ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> You have to remember the purpose of Foreign Aid _(all types of assistance: military security, medical emergency, and disaster relief, human development and  agricultural, etc)_ is a diplomatic tool that furthers US Influence in pursuit
> ...



Does that mean you support the ally no matter what they do?

The Tolstoy quote is informing on both sides.


Why should we not be an honest broker?  When we are not, the results are seldom enduring.  You can’t have true and lasting peace if it is one sided.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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Aid that bypasses governments and goes directly to the people.  Schools, infrastructure, economic development that directly supports entrepreneurs and small local businesses.  Flac pointed the problems Palestinians have because all their trade involves Israel.  They need to develop other partnerships.  Why haven’t they?  Does Israel restrict it?  Aid can go towards developing an independent energy and water sources so Israel does not control it.  Aid can be strategic by making some of it dependent on certain reforms, such as elections and anti corruption measures.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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I should have clarified, I was talking only about economic aid, which is something like 3.1 B.  Military aid is a different matter, and it is strategic.  I don’t have an issue with that.


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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Can't have peace without a spine.
Honesty is not an absence of moral decision in favor of an artificial image of neutrality.
One supports what is right and rejects what is wrong.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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Do you believe Israel is always right?


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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Not always, I know Israel is fundamentally good.
Yes I do make that distinction, I know what is good and bad, *anyone with a spine makes that decision,* anyone without runs into the gray area in fear of upsetting someone at the expense of his own values.

Seems like the US made a clear distinction of what is acceptable and not.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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Perhaps it is spineless to paint complex situations as black and white.

A Palestinian doctor, who had worked extensively with the Israelis in medical work, lost his children when Israel bombed Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, I believe.

Where is the black and white?  Who is bad? Who is good?


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

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Aren't those the jobs of the government of that territory?  To provide for its people with basics like entertainment and water and schools and infrastructure?


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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It's very simple - war is bad. Winning a war for the good side is good.
More Germans died in their war than Brits, does it change  the fact that Germany was bad and wrong full 200%. More ISISI Jihadis died in war than Egyptians, who's side is good?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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If the government is inadequate, or the economic situation situation dire, aid can help.

In fact, aid is frequently used to help hospitals and schools in many countries,  and I have never before heard this argument made against them.


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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The same hospitals which turn into military bases in every confrontation?


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

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For how long?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Here are some of the things US Aid to Israel goes to.

U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel

It includes schools, hospitals, and refugee and migration assistance.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

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What if the government actively chooses not to provide for it people?  What then?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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I have never seen time limits placed on aid.  Presumably until it is no longer needed, or otherwise ended.


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## rylah (Sep 29, 2018)

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This can only happen with clear frames and outlined goals, including time limits.
Otherwise You can't make a distinction when it is actually needed.

Junkies on the streets "need aid", does it help or worsen the situation if You give 'em Your paycheck with no conditions? A road to where is paved with good intentions?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

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From my research:

* Economic aid is combination of grants and loans. Israel stopped receiving economic aid of any sort in 2007

Total U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel (1949-Present)


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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They do choose to provide it, though it is insufficiently funded.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

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It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009. 


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

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It's insufficiently funded by whom?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

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Then where is the PA's own electricity and water facilities with all the Billions they continue to receive?

Where are they in Gaza?  Gaza has a small one, and Israel has to supply the electricity and fix it.

Why are they not fully self-sufficient, as Egypt, Jordan and other places are.

They do have the money for it.

Where does it go?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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My research found a different answer: FAE: Data Query


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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Who has control of the water?

It is a false equivalency to compare Gaza to Egypt and those other countries.  They are larger, have ports and rivers, trade relations with any country, etc.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

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> ...


The government.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Of course they blame Hamas.  Hamas deserves only part of the blame.  

*Izzeldin Abuelaish* (Arabic: OOnt MSC is a Canadian-Palestinian medical doctor and author. He was born in Gaza, and was the first Palestinian doctor to work in an Israeli hospital. He was active in promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. His daughters attended a peace camp with Israeli children in the United States. During the Gaza war, his three daughters and a niece were killed by Israeli tank fire directed at his home. He had been calling in reports about the effect of the war by phone to a TV station. In his regularly scheduled report, in tears, he described their killing on-air, in a video that was widely circulated in Israel and the world.[1] The Israeli military initially claimed that Dr. Abuelaish's house was targeted because it was the source of sniper fire. A day later the Israelis claimed to be targeting militants. *It was further alleged, but unproven, that the dead girl's bodies contained shrapnel from quassam rockets.*[2]


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



How do you determine time limits when you are dealing with a catastrophic drought, or a civil war ?  I agree on conditions though.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
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> > Coyote said:
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The government of Palestine?  We agree. So we have a government which refuses to provide for its own people?  

How do we try to fix that?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
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> > Coyote said:
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Source ?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Oops, sorry about that, here it is Izzeldin Abuelaish - Wikipedia


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
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We do?  Maybe they don’t have the funds.  Their economy is in shambles.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 29, 2018)

Wow coyote is still defending the terror regime. Amazing. I see those that defend Palestine and rip Israel for who they really are.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 29, 2018)




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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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Question:

Should a Military organization, like Hamas or any other, even the US military, act against the enemy from civilian areas?
What happened in Iraq when the US was there?

What are the consequences to the civilian population when they are either hostages, or willing to allow the military to operate within their civilian areas?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Maybe if Abbas, Arafat's widow and all other Palestinian leaders went to their banks and took out all the money they stole from all the aid which was to go to the people and the building of Gaza and the PA, the Palestinian economy would not be in shambles.

Millions and Millions put in their pockets instead of invested in infrastructure and other necessities.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> We do?  Maybe they don’t have the funds.  Their economy is in shambles.



Are you arguing that PA does not have enough resources to support its people?  Or are you arguing that the Palestinian economy needs to be developed?  Or are you arguing that they have the resources, but are misallocating them?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
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That is a common problem with aid though, in many countries.  Why single Palestine out?


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Here are some of the things US Aid to Israel goes to.
> 
> U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel
> 
> It includes schools, hospitals, and refugee and migration assistance.



I didn't see anything about schools or hospitals.  Can you direct me to that place in the summary?

I did see refugee and migration assistance. That would be assistance for foreigners arriving from other countries due to persecution or conflict.  This is not aide to help Israelis -- its to help the foreign nationals who end up in Israel's care.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > We do?  Maybe they don’t have the funds.  Their economy is in shambles.
> ...


All three to some extent.

It lacks much in the way of resources, it needs to be developed and corruption is a problem.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Here are some of the things US Aid to Israel goes to.
> ...



That is to help Israeli’s - it is for people immigrating to Israel.  From that link:

*Migration & Refugee Assistance*
Since 1973, Israel has received grants from the State Department's Migration and Refugee Assistance account (MRA)67 to assist in the resettlement of migrants to Israel. Funds are paid to the United Israel Appeal, a private philanthropic organization in the United States, which in turn transfers the funds to the Jewish Agency for Israel.68 Between 1973 and 1991, the United States gave about $460 million for resettling Jewish refugees in Israel. Annual amounts have varied from a low of $12 million to a high of $80 million, based at least partly on the number of Jews leaving the former Soviet Union and other areas for Israel.

If you look under U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel

It lists schools.

*American Schools and Hospitals Abroad Program (ASHA)74*
Through foreign operations appropriations legislation, Congress has funded the ASHA program as part of the overall Development Assistance (DA) appropriation to the United States Agency for International Development (USAID). According to USAID, ASHA is designed to strengthen self-sustaining schools, libraries, and medical centers that best demonstrate American ideals and practices abroad. ASHA has been providing support to institutions in the Middle East since 1957, and a number of universities and hospitals in Israel have been recipients of ASHA grants. In FY2015 (the most recent year for which data are available), ASHA grant recipients in Israel included Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem, St. John Eye Hospital Group, Nazareth Hospital, and the Hadassah Medical Organization. According to USAID, institutions based in Israel have received the most program funding in the Middle East region.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
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I disagree vehemently that they lack adequate resources. They lack adequate will.

We agree that the economy needs to be developed.  How best to do that?

Misallocation of resources is a problem.  How best to fix that?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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It is complicated.  But you are assuming the claim is true.  I find that hard to believe, and much like the journalist that was killed, the claims were not proven.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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Only the Palestinian leaders do certain things the other countries do not.

Those things are in the news all the time.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Actually...they don’t.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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There are tons of evidence by most of the international reporters who were there in 2014, including videos.

Research.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
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Do you even know what I was referring to?

And it is not in the news all the time?

Isn't it one of the reasons the US put an end to the aid to the Palestinians?


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
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And you don't see the difference between a grant program intended to provide funds to private, non-profit, self-sustaining educational and medical institutions continuously identified as American for the purpose of spreading specific American culture abroad

and 

a government which refuses to provide basic medical care to its citizens by withholding payments to hospitals which provide that care?


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> ...for resettling Jewish refugees in Israel.



Wait, so resettling persecuted refugees is BAD?  How is that not a perfectly acceptable humanitarian cause?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
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> > Shusha said:
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Point taken on the first.

On the second, can you provide an example of payment deliberately withheld?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ...for resettling Jewish refugees in Israel.
> ...


Did I say it was bad?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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The only reason Trump ended aid to them was vindictive.  He was pissed that they weren’t grateful sycophants after he threw them under the bus.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Point taken on the first.
> 
> On the second, can you provide an example of payment deliberately withheld?



Um.  The hospitals you posted about.  The PA won't pay the bills they owe for those hospitals.  For the care of their citizens.  

Hang on, I'll find a link.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

_The American funding joins 13 million euros transferred by the European Union, which *jointly cover part of the debt owed by the Palestinian Authority to the hospitals. The money therefor does not fund hospitals in East Jerusalem, but patients in the West Bank....*

*The growing debt of the PA to the hospitals stands at 280 million shekels* and heavily encumbers their performance. In recent years, nearly every hospital in East Jerusalem has fallen into financial troubles verging on bankruptcy, among other reasons, because of this debt._

Source

I've read better source, but can't find it at the moment.  I'll post if I find it.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
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You were complaining that Israel should not receive aide because there is no need.  I think refugees is a perfectly legitimate need.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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US: Palestinians Should Pay Hospital Bills Instead of Terrorists


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
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And Israel can not fund it herself? 

I happen to think education is a legitimate need as well.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Arab hospital stops receiving patients over lack of PA funding


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
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I’m sorry but some of that sounds a hell of a lot like Trump Administration propaganda.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> And Israel can not fund it herself?



Hey.  If you want to say that Israel is responsible for every single Israeli in the world and every single Jewish person, I have no beef with that.

But the equivalent would be that Palestine is responsible for every single Palestinian Arab in perpetuity.  Bye-bye UNWRA.

But if your point is that aide for refugees should fall solely on the host countries I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

What standard did you want to make a single standard here?


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## skye (Sep 29, 2018)

So much hatred towards Israel..... wow


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## Indeependent (Sep 29, 2018)

skye said:


> So much hatred towards Israel..... wow


Liberals hate Jews...true story.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Arab hospital stops receiving patients over lack of PA funding



So what happens to the people?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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Can you find a reason as to why the PA should not be giving money the the hospitals, which instead end up in the hands of terrorists and their families?

It is a fact that the PA is not funding the hospitals they are responsible for .

So, why do they not fund them, as they are supposed to, so that the Palestinians will not suffer?


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Arab hospital stops receiving patients over lack of PA funding
> ...



Like all other countries, they receive the care which is provided by their own governments in their own territory.  Why is that a problem?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > And Israel can not fund it herself?
> ...



You are talking about Immigrating to Israel from countries where they face persecution, not refugees.  We are responsible for immigrants to our country.  Shouldn’t Israel be?

You pointed out a number of times that Palestine should fund its own programs rather than get aid.  Shouldn’t the same apply to Israel?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Arab hospital stops receiving patients over lack of PA funding
> ...


Could you do one iota of research on it?

Who is responsible for those patients?

From the article :

"The PA continues to pay an estimated $10 million each month to terrorists in Israeli prisons and a further $15 million a month to the families of terrorists who have carried out attacks against Israelis. The PA has refused to consider stopping the payments to terrorists in order to divert funds to other places, like the Augusta Victoria Hospital."
----------
Very possibly, as in the case below.....Israel takes care of them...

PA to again allow Gazan patients to be treated in Israeli hospitals


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
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Many countries receive aid to assist them.  Why is that a problem?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Sixties Fan said:
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I do research.  So stuff it please.


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## Indeependent (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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Are you an idiot?
The US takes in very few refugees.
Israel is expected, by you and other nut cases, to takes in millions and commit national suicide.
And why aren’t you expecting the rest of the Arab nations to take in refugees?


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## Indeependent (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Where’s your research?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
> ...



It might behoove you to actually read the discussion before opening your mouth and proving you haven’t.  What you just said has nothing to do with what we are talking about.


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## Indeependent (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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I have been and all I see is your bleeding heart bullshit.
Not one Arab organization is spending money on Gaza or the West Bank population except to meet their bare mininum needs.
It’s not the Jews responsibility to babysit people that no one else wants.
There are territory conflicts all over the African continent, the Arab world and the Balkans that go back to WWI and all anybody wants to discuss is how to spend Jewish money.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Indeependent said:
> ...



I don’t think you have read the right thread.  No one is talking about spending Jewish money.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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The two problems we have already identified:  lack of a viable economy and misallocation of funds.

What SHOULD be done in those cases?


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It is 1230 am and I am too tired ... I would have to think on what should be done, but a total cut in all aid, even to programs that are working well is not the answer.


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## Indeependent (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You are discussing who, including the US, is responsible for the displaced bomb makers.
The fact is Israel supplies them with water,
Electricty and health care.
I say screw them; it’s been 50 years and everyone of their leaders has simply pilfered all the money given them by the US.
The US has made an investment in the Arab world in general that has had zero returns.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> You are talking about Immigrating to Israel from countries where they face persecution, not refugees.



That is the definition of a refugee.  A person outside their country of nationality and unable to return and avail themselves of their nationality because of persecution.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Have a good rest.  We'll chat more tomorrow.


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## Coyote (Sep 29, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You are talking about Immigrating to Israel from countries where they face persecution, not refugees.
> ...


Except that isn’t entirely what is being funded.  Here it is again:

*Migration & Refugee Assistance*
Since 1973, Israel has received grants from the State Department's Migration and Refugee Assistance account (MRA)67 to assist in the resettlement *of migrants *to Israel. Funds are paid to the United Israel Appeal, a private philanthropic organization in the United States, which in turn transfers the funds to the Jewish Agency for Israel.68 Between 1973 and 1991, the United States gave about $460 million for resettling Jewish refugees in Israel. Annual amounts have varied from a low of $12 million to a high of $80 million, based at least partly on the number of Jews leaving the former Soviet Union and other areas for Israel.


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## Shusha (Sep 29, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Except that isn’t entirely what is being funded.  Here it is again:
> 
> *Migration & Refugee Assistance*
> Since 1973, Israel has received grants from the State Department's Migration and Refugee Assistance account (MRA)67 to assist in the resettlement of migrants to Israel. Funds are paid to the United Israel Appeal, a private philanthropic organization in the United States, which in turn transfers the funds to the Jewish Agency for Israel.68 Between 1973 and 1991, the United States gave about $460 million for *resettling Jewish refugees* in Israel. Annual amounts have varied from a low of $12 million to a high of $80 million, based at least partly on the number of Jews leaving the former Soviet Union and other areas for Israel.



Everything I can find so far says that the funds are specifically earmarked for "*refugees* resettling in Israel".


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## Shusha (Sep 30, 2018)

The problem with this whole thread is that, once again, someone else is supposed to be responsible for the Palestinian people. 

That has to stop happening. Whether the Palestinian people take care of themselves on a small territory or a larger territory or even on the whole territory, ultimately it has to be them taking care of themselves. 

The conflict simply can't end until they do. Until they love their children more than they want to kill ours.


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## Mindful (Sep 30, 2018)

One should ask:

When did a Palestinian sense of identity come about?

Under the Ottomans?

The British Mandate?

As a reaction to Zionism?


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## Mindful (Sep 30, 2018)

Is there such a thing as a Palestinian people?


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## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2018)

RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
※→  Coyote, et al,

In the case of in which America is the Ally of Israel, and Israel in return is an ally of America, the issue of honesty is important because it creates a relationship of mutual trust.



RoccoR said:


> “Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”e
> ............................................................................................― _Leo Tolstoy_​





Coyote said:


> Does that mean you support the ally no matter what they do?


*(COMMENT)*

Of course not.  BUT, it does mean that America must look at the issues from the perspective of the ally (Israel); and not be confused by trying to think like the Arab Palestinians or appreciate the enemy perspective.



Coyote said:


> The Tolstoy quote is informing on both sides.


*(COMMENT)*

The Israelis are of the western style of democracy.  America has a rich history that has grown to recognize the necessity to protects minority rights _[one Jewish State (pop ≈ 8M people) surrounded by four Arab League Members (pop ≈ 144M people)]_ by ensuring that there is equal participation in various democratic processes. The minority is represented in various branches of governance.  Much of American support is in the form of international political weight, while the other major area requires America ensures Israel has a Qualitative Military Edge (QME) with a capacity strong enough to adequately defending themselves.

Much has been made of American munitions used by the Israelis.  Yes, it is true that America is a doorway to that QME.

✪  America provides political support against the majority of nations that attempt to use the color of law against the minority that seek refuge in the Jewish National Home.  America has learned _(and is still learning)_ the folly of using pretense or appearance of right against the survivability of the minority.

✪  Most people do not realize that Israel only Ranks 88th (out of 155) nations in terms of its force size.  That laces it right below Switzerland (IS 3.6M vs CH 3.615M).   Egypt Ranks 14th (42M), Jordan Ranks 93d (3.3M), Syria Ranks 49th (11.6M) and Ranks 108th at (2.2M).  That does not include the other 18 Arab Leagu Members or the theocratic Republic of Iran Ranked 13th (47M).  The QME is critical in fending of the threats of not so friendly nations.​


Coyote said:


> Why should we not be an honest broker?  When we are not, the results are seldom enduring.  You can’t have true and lasting peace if it is one-sided.


*(COMMENT)*

It is one-sided (unquestionably), and America had nothing to do with the morality of that outcome.

In the eyes of the Arab Palestinians, America will never be an impartial mediator so long as it supports Israel.  And in the light of that argument, and in the interest of transparency, America SHOULD recuse itself as having a conflict of interest _(Ally to Israel)_ and lack of impartiality _(Honesty support for Israel)_.  This is no different _(only with the opposite orientation)_ than the position held by a majority of the Arab League and the Russian Federation.  And this is no different when America stood alone against the other 14 Members of the Security Council opposing Resolution S/RES/2334 (2016). 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2018)

RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
※→  Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.



Coyote said:


> Do you believe Israel is always right?


*(COMMENT)*

NO*!*

v/r
R


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## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2018)

*RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
※  Coyote, et al,

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an long and dragged-out event → causing great suffering, destruction, pain and anguish.  



Coyote said:


> Where is the black and white?  Who is bad? Who is good?


*(COMMENT)*

Few wars _(I can't even think of one tight now)_ have this quality where one side is seen as being in the absolute "right;" with the OPFOR being seen as not logical or reasonable.  All wars are a tragedy in which diplomacy has failed.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Electricity and water: supplies or controls?


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## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> That is a "No Win" question.
> ...



I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ...


The criticism on Israel is encountered according to the validity of the accusations.

Valid criticism is accepted.

Any and all criticism needs to be met with a grain of salt, depending on what the criticism is and who is making the allegations.


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## Mindful (Sep 30, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



I was going to say, depends on the criticism.

How they deal with their homeless population, for instance.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Jordan had "West Bank" for 19 years.  No electricity or water supplied to the needy population.

Egypt had Gaza for 19 years.  No electricity or water supplied to the needy population.

1967 - Israel take over both due to war.
It builds the infrastructure for electricity and water for the population.

Now, you answer me.....

Is it to supply the population or to control them?


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## Mindful (Sep 30, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Apart from importing water from Turkey, Israel also has a desalination plant. (I've seen this system successfully employed in Malta, which has no natural water supply whatsoever)

Couldn't the Gazans have  something like that, paid for with some of the money given to the PA?


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## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> In the case of in which America is the Ally of Israel, and Israel in return is an ally of America, the issue of honesty is important because it creates a relationship of mutual trust.
> ...



On your first paragraph:  Allies and Enemies.  The Palestinians are our enemies?  How?  What have they done to us?  Is Qatar our enemy since our allies Egypt and Saudi Arabia decided to lay siege to it?  What about Yemen, since our ally Saudi Arabia has conducted a particularly horrific bombing campaign there?  Does a country, who has done no harm to us automatically become “our enemy” because an ally is involved in a war with us?

On the issue of honesty:  Israel’s attempts to scupper the Iran deal.  What kind of ally does that?  I am not denying Israel is a good ally, but they also have their own national priorities to consider as do the Palestinians and a simple view of them as either ally or enemy doesn’t begin to cover the reality of complex relationships and when you are trying to create something as complicated as a peace deal, that view hinders rather than helps.

On the issue of enemy:  who are our enemies?
Four Nations Top U.S.'s Greatest Enemy List

Americans Think These Are the USA's Most Dangerous Enemies

I don’t see any official lists but the Palestinians don’t seem to feature.

If we look at it from the perspective of an ally...at what point do we decide that that perspective might be creating a worse situation rather than a better one and what do we do?  Example, settlement building in disputed territories is, despite arguments to the contrary, a big obstacle to peace from the Palestinian perspective.

I agree, America can not ever be an honest broker so perhaps it should stay out of the conflict.

Right now, we have removed all aid without regard to individual programs, without a coherent strategy in place, and it will be devasting.  Aid is a powerful tool for diplomacy and change if it is done with a strategy in mind.  Aid can be selectively removed from certain areas, aid can promised as a result of certain reforms being made (even better when in connection with Arab allies) - but that is not being done.  What is being done is vindictive, without a real strategy, and no long term plan.


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## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Why do the Palestinians not have control over water? Flac Allen pointed that out early in the thread.  I will find the post.


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## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

Mindful said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


They could and they should.


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## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


That is a matter of perspective.  What do you consider valid criticism?


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## Indeependent (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Because they use their skills for tunnels...true story.


----------



## Indeependent (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Supply electricity, maintain water quality.
The the Arab world couldn’t bother.
Egypt has told Gaza togo to hell.


----------



## Indeependent (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


For someone who claims to have “done research” you seem to not know an immense amount concerning the context of this topic.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Gaza has desalination plants and solar power. Not enough, but a start. (supplied mostly by Europe.)

The Palestinians have always used cisterns as a water source in Gaza, the West Bank, and the Negev. Israel regularly destroys cisterns. Israel destroys wells also.

Solar power has been installed in villages in the West Bank and the Negev. Israel destroys those.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Whatever is based on the truth.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 30, 2018)

Mindful said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Let us not forget the money Hamas should be getting from Iran.
Where does that go?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2018)

RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
※→  Coyote, et al,

Any country that has fought a series of conventional attacks, AND in the background, a continuous series of low-intensity asymmetric engagements, conflicts → that will have been involved in events that are uncompromisingly wrong and events that are indefensible.  It has been over seventy years now that the conflict rages.  And Israel is due  their share of "Criticism."  No country in history of can be on the defensive, for 70 years, against against both sparatic high intensity conventional Mechanized ground war, supremacy for the skies, protection from the sea-borne threat and still have to face the violent struggle among state and non-state actors for legitimacy and influence over the future political processes and the defense of a nation.  

Unfortunately YES!

No country facing the continuous level and magnitude of Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters can honestly say that every decision made over that duration of time (70 years) can state that every decision made was morally correct and justifiably enacted.  Israel has implemented actions that have, from time to time, uncompromisingly wrong and indefensible.



Coyote said:


> I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.


*(COMMENT)*

But remember.  The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile.  Since the adoption of tactics that included the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.  

An overwhelming majority of the actions taken by the Arab Palestinians are violations of some law, but is overlooked by those passing judgment on Israel under the color of law.   In fact, the Arab Palestinians do it so often that it becomes almost socially acceptable for that behavior. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is a matter of having control over clean water.
They have not built infrastructure responsible to deal with all the trash and pollution which ends up in their water which makes it non drinkable.
The same with the PA.

In the West Bank, Palestinians continually throw trash into the water which pollutes it and ends up in the Israeli water system.
Same as in Gaza.

https://psmag.com/environment/the-growing-pollution-problem-in-gaza

----------
But the worst problem, according to the report, is Hebron, which has nearly 170,000 inhabitants. Its waste includes toxic runoff from industries including stonecutting and leatherworking. More than 80 of the city’s 100 stone-cutting plants send their waste into pirate drainage pools, from which it flows into the Hebron Stream and then to Israel. Waste from the Hebron area alone has contaminated around 43 kilometers of streams.

Jewish settlements also contribute to the problem: 13 percent of their sewage goes into the environment rather than to treatment plants.

Israel has tried to cope with the problem by building treatment plants near the Green Line separating Israel from the West Bank and treating the contaminated water once it enters Israel. But the facility built to treat the Hebron Stream − the most polluted of all − can’t handle the volume of waste it receives. Contaminated water reaches nearby communities, emitting a stench and attracting mosquitoes.

Attempts at Israeli-Palestinian cooperation on this issue have largely gone nowhere, mainly because the Palestinian Authority refuses to cooperate with the settlements. Thus it refused to connect Palestinian towns in the northern West Bank to an Israeli sewage line because the line also serves several settlements. It also nixed a proposed treatment plant that would serve both Palestinian towns and the settlement of Ariel.

Most Palestinian sewage in West Bank untreated, contaminating water along Green Line


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> Any country that has fought a series of conventional attacks, AND in the background, a continuous series of low-intensity asymmetric engagements, conflicts → that will have been involved in events that are uncompromisingly wrong and events that are indefensible.  It has been over seventy years now that the conflict rages.  And Israel is due  their share of "Criticism."  No country in history of can be on the defensive, for 70 years, against against both sparatic high intensity conventional Mechanized ground war, supremacy for the skies, protection from the sea-borne threat and still have to face the violent struggle among state and non-state actors for legitimacy and influence over the future political processes and the defense of a nation.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile, blah, blah, blah.


You only say that because you believe that the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 30, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ...



They should have. Against Hamas.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ...



You only say that because you have this odd notion that the Arabs-Moslems have some entitlement to wage acts of Islamic terrorism without consequence.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Why single Palestine out?




Decades of unrelenting terrorism

Genocidal antisemitism

Making mass murder their highest priority as a people.

Killing their daughters and wives while calling it "honor"

Rampant abuse of children by indoctrinating them into a cult of hate

I can think of countless reasons why aid should be restricted.  This subgroup of Arabs has received more aid per capita than any other group in the world, and what has all this money achieved, but more genocidal antisemitism, more child abuse, and more terrorism?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Sep 30, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...




....and he's certainly not the only one.

I wonder how much of the world aid they receive simply goes towards funding the enormous propaganda apparatus they use to sway public opinion and thus receive more aid.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Sep 30, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> You only say that because you believe that the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves.



 Yes -- you see the intentional murder of innocent people as "self defense"


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Sep 30, 2018)

Keep all that money flowing folks.

There are operatives working internet discussion groups whose livliehood depends on it!


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2018)

Mindful said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You are full of crap, as usual.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > You only say that because you believe that the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves.
> ...


If they are so innocent, what are they doing in Palestine?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Sep 30, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You already made it clear that you support the murder of Jews.

You don't need to embellish.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Sep 30, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Tinmore should learn history and geography then maybe he can debate intelligently?



He just doesn’t believe Israel has the Right to Exist. Lately, he’s posting


AzogtheDefiler said:


> Tinmore should learn history and geography then maybe he can debate intelligently?



Lately he has been showing YOU TUBE where Hasidic Jews are Protesting Israel’s existence: nothing to do with “ Palestinian Rights”
He honestly seems incapable of understanding they are protesting on Religious Grounds.


----------



## theliq (Sep 30, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > It is good to see that people are beginning to think about what needs to be done in Palestine.
> ...


Same should be asked to the Zionists,even more so


----------



## Sixties Fan (Sep 30, 2018)

Where did UNRWA funding go?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Sep 30, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...


They sure do love their Jews as Europeans theme, don't they?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Sep 30, 2018)

[QUITEt="AzogtheDefiler, post: 20892600, member: 71124"]Tinmore should learn history and geography then maybe he can debate intelligently?[/QUOTE]
They are taught that Jews are Europeans, and nothing will dissuade them from it .

Tinmore is more obvious in supporting the murder of Jews than the others, but that is the common theme among them.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

*Folks, this thread has had some really good discussion in it, let’s get back to that please.  *


----------



## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Why single Palestine out?
> ...




Some of that is changing 

Palestinians Changing Laws on ‘Honor Killings’ — Jewish Journal


This stuff doesn’t seem to get much attention though.

It seems to me judicial reforms like these could be tied to aid as well.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Sep 30, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> [QUITEt="AzogtheDefiler, post: 20892600, member: 71124"]Tinmore should learn history and geography then maybe he can debate intelligently?


They are taught that Jews are Europeans, and nothing will dissuade them from it .

Tinmore is more obvious in supporting the murder of Jews than the others, but that is the common theme among them.[/QUOTE]

Not long ago he posted a link where Palestinians were asked if they could live with Israelis. They reluctantly said “ yes” but one stated she would think of the entire area as “Palestine “  I laugh almost everytime I read his posts


----------



## Shusha (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Electricity and water: supplies or controls?



Under Oslo, it is supposed to be a Joint Water Commission.  However, the PA/Hamas has refused participation.  The Palestinians are also not holding up their end of the bargain which is to maintain the infrastructure necessary and to police deliberate theft.  Not to mention diverting supplies and investments to terror activities.

Israeli actions don't happen in a vacuum.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ...



Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 30, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Right now, we have removed all aid without regard to individual programs, without a coherent strategy in place, and it will be devasting.



It won't be devastating to the Palestinians if the PA budget is re-directed to the Palestinians.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 30, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Oh hey, I know.  We had one long thread about whether or not Israel DOES exist.  Which is just foolishness.  Imagine a whole thread about, "France does not exist in law".


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Sep 30, 2018)

Shusha said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



According to him there wasn’t a “ Law” that the Jewish Nation should exist. I think he never heard of May 14, 1948.  What exactly is his “ claim?”


----------



## Shusha (Sep 30, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



As I understand it, it goes something like this:  Invasion and colonization became illegal (conveniently) at the exact same moment in time when the Jewish people began to return to their historical homeland.  Since the Jewish people aren't really a "people" with inherent, inviolable rights both their claim and their return to their historical homeland is illegal and they are nothing but invaders and colonizers and their presence in the territory known as "Palestine" is illegal, which makes them available for justifiable killing.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Sep 30, 2018)

Shusha said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Got it! I don’t know the depth of History the way other posters do but even I know that “ Palestine” is a territory, not a Country


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 30, 2018)

*If the post is NOT about changes to Palestinian aid as a current event -- it's way off topic. Don't hit reply if it's NOT about the OP topic. 
*


----------



## Coyote (Sep 30, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> *If the post is NOT about changes to Palestinian aid as a current event -- it's way off topic. Don't hit reply if it's NOT about the OP topic. *


 I was starting to clean the thread and then saw this, thanks


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  ILOVEISRAEL,  et al,

In terms of "reshaping aid" to the entity called Palestine, which means something different than the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) believe it to be, it neither effects the US policy application of "aid" nor the chances for an effective transformation process in building a viable set of institutions that induce positive change in the economy and organizations of the infrastructure.



ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Got it! I don’t know the depth of History the way other posters do but even I know that “ Palestine” is a territory, not a Country


*(COMMENT)*

The Prospectus for the enterprise called "Palestine" has never been written.   There is nothing provided donor nations with material information about fundamental projects, construction of infrastructure priorities, and improvements to existing infrastructure, such as a description of Palestine's business, revenue management, reinvestments in Palestine and the projected financial improvements over time.

All the Ramallah and Gaza Governments do is line the pockets of the HoAP Leadership. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> All the Ramallah and Gaza Governments do is line the pockets of the HoAP Leadership.


Good point.  Palestine Today

Abbas has continued to hold the leadership on an illegal basis and with the support of the international community and the Arab states,​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  ILOVEISRAEL,  et al,
> 
> In terms of "reshaping aid" to the entity called Palestine, which means something different than the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) believe it to be, it neither effects the US policy application of "aid" nor the chances for an effective transformation process in building a viable set of institutions that induce positive change in the economy and organizations of the infrastructure.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> There is nothing provided donor nations with material information about fundamental projects, construction of infrastructure priorities,


*International Aid & the Palestinians: Supporting Israel's Occupation?*

**


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...


You completely missed my point.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Flac pointed the problems Palestinians have because all their trade involves Israel. They need to develop other partnerships. Why haven’t they? Does Israel restrict it? Aid can go towards developing an independent energy and water sources so Israel does not control it.


You are hitting on some relevant points.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...





Sixties Fan said:


> There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.


Israel's usual duck.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

Shusha said:


> We agree that the economy needs to be developed. How best to do that?





Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Get Israel out of the way.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

Shusha said:


> The problem with this whole thread is that, once again, someone else is supposed to be responsible for the Palestinian people.
> 
> That has to stop happening. Whether the Palestinian people take care of themselves on a small territory or a larger territory or even on the whole territory, ultimately it has to be them taking care of themselves.
> 
> The conflict simply can't end until they do. Until they love their children more than they want to kill ours.





Shusha said:


> Whether the Palestinian people take care of themselves on a small territory or a larger territory or even on the whole territory, ultimately it has to be them taking care of themselves.


But how do you get Israel to stop keeping that from happening?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

Mindful said:


> Is there such a thing as a Palestinian people?


Sure there is.
---------------
The automatic, _ipso facto_, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> In the case of in which America is the Ally of Israel, and Israel in return is an ally of America, the issue of honesty is important because it creates a relationship of mutual trust.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> and not be confused by trying to think like the Arab Palestinians or appreciate the enemy perspective.


Are Palestinians the enemy of America?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...





Sixties Fan said:


> Valid criticism is accepted.


Good! That leaves BDS off the anti Semitism hook.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> Any country that has fought a series of conventional attacks, AND in the background, a continuous series of low-intensity asymmetric engagements, conflicts → that will have been involved in events that are uncompromisingly wrong and events that are indefensible.  It has been over seventy years now that the conflict rages.  And Israel is due  their share of "Criticism."  No country in history of can be on the defensive, for 70 years, against against both sparatic high intensity conventional Mechanized ground war, supremacy for the skies, protection from the sea-borne threat and still have to face the violent struggle among state and non-state actors for legitimacy and influence over the future political processes and the defense of a nation.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile.


i.e. defensive.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 1, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
> ...



Islamic terrorist suicide attacks are defensive?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Oh jeese, more of the old terrorist canard.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Oct 1, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



In his world they are justified


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Oct 1, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Which provides THE most valid reason why these creatures should not receive so much as a single penny of U.S.  aid .


----------



## member (Oct 1, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...





* 
"Reshaping us aid to the Palestinians..."*








*"Aid that bypasses governments and goes directly to the people.  Schools, infrastructure, economic development that directly supports entrepreneurs and small local businesses.  Flac pointed the problems Palestinians have because all their trade involves Israel."  They need to develop other partnerships.  Why haven’t they?  Does Israel restrict it?"*




​





 wait ...what ? 





"_blah_: . . .*Flac pointed *[out]* the problems Palestinians have because all their trade involves Israel.*"



_b o l o g n a_.... *"pointed [to] the problems palestinians have. . ."


*




dolt terrorist leaders 




*+* lazy-ass 

 terrorist-sympathizers. . .



_and..._





 the 

 terrorists themselves......










​




​


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  ILOVEISRAEL,  et al,

This is a one-sided opinion on the part of the various pro-Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) Movements. 



P F Tinmore said:


> *International Aid & the Palestinians: Supporting Israel's Occupation?*


*(COMMENT)*

Of course, the other side to that opinion is that America is:

✪  Helping Israel to defend itself against the Arab Palestinians support designated EU terrorist groups like: 

Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem (terrorist wing of Hamas);
PIJ (Palestinian Islamic Jihad).
✪  Helping Israel perform its duties and employ the necessary  measures in it's power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety under Article 43 of the Harue Regulation.

✪  Helping Israel to establish a Rule of Law program _(under the __1997 International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings)_ over the unlawful and intentional use of explosives and other lethal devices which HoAP emply against various defined public places with intent to kill or cause serious bodily injury, or with intent to cause extensive destruction of the public place.

✪  Israel in the enforcement of the 2005 Protocol to the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation. 

Criminalizes the use of a ship as a device to further an act of terrorism;
Criminalizes the transport on board a ship various materials knowing that they are intended to be used to cause, or in a threat to cause, death or serious injury or damage to further an act of terrorism;
Criminalizes the transporting on board a ship of persons who have committed an act of terrorism; and
Introduces procedures for governing the boarding of a ship believed to have committed an offence under the Convention.
​Of course, the pro-HoAP Movements have claimed for decades that they are exempt from the international law that punishes pro-HoAP who commit an offense which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power.  The acts by the pro-HoAP which are either designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression.  This includes the promotions to the effect that the pro-HoAP have some legal right to attack the Israelis.

✪  Any time a people condone the use of forces specifically punishable by Customary and International Humanitarian Law, they are themselves participating in the objective element of a crime; incitement.​

✪  The UN Security Council [S/RES/1624 (2005)] Condemns, in the strongest terms, the incitement of terrorist acts and terrorist acts that may incite further terrorist acts for which the HoAP of the West Bank _(including Jerusalem)_ and Gaza Strip have an established a pattern of criminal behavior.

✪  Reaffirming that acts, methods, and practices of terrorism are contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations and that knowingly financing, planning and inciting terrorist acts are also contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations,​The UN Security Council has called upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and
appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to:

(a)  Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts;
(b)  Prevent such conduct;
(c)  Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been guilty of such conduct;

✪  Inciting, aiding or abetting, and attempting

1. Each European Union (EU) Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that inciting or aiding or abetting an offence --- is made punishable.

2. Each EU Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that attempting to commit an offence referred --- is made punishable.​
This is what it is all about.  The pro-HoAP believe that they are a special circumstance and should be exempt from the Customary IHL and Criminalization of the acts they promote.  They should remember that:

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (Oct 1, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > We agree that the economy needs to be developed. How best to do that?
> ...



Be more specific. What do you mean by that?


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2018)

RE: *Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians*
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There is no such thing as defensive terrorism.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Offenses linked to terrorist activities

(a) aggravated theft with a view to committing one of the acts of terrorism;
(b) extortion with a view to the perpetration of one of the acts of terrorism;
(c) drawing up false administrative documents with a view to committing one of the acts of terrorism.​
Terrorist offenses and fundamental rights and principles

→ seriously intimidating a population, or

→ unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act, or

→ seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation,​
Customary and Statutory Law in the European Union, and other Nations of the World, define terrorist offenses:

(a) attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;
(b) attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;
(c) kidnapping or hostage taking;
(d) causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility, including an information system, a fixed platform located on the continental shelf, a public place or private property likely to endanger human life or result in major economic loss;
(e) seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;
(f) manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons, explosives or of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, as well as research into, and development of, biological and chemical weapons;
(g) release of dangerous substances, or causing fires, floods or explosions the effect of which is to endanger human life;
(h) interfering with or disrupting the supply of water, power or any other fundamental natural resource the effect of which is to endanger human life;
(i) threatening to commit any of the acts listed in (a) to (h).​
IF the Arab Palestinian has committed any of these offenses, to further their political agenda or the campaign against the Israeli sovereignty, THEN they Arab Palestinian CAN NOT consider themselves anything but Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters operating with the tactic of terrorism. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (Oct 1, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with this whole thread is that, once again, someone else is supposed to be responsible for the Palestinian people.
> ...



How is Israel preventing Palestine and Gaza from doing such things as paying the bills to the hospitals?  Or maintaining the infrastructure of the water supply?  As examples.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> ✪ Helping Israel to defend itself against the Arab Palestinians support designated EU terrorist groups like:


I am having trouble with the concept of people attacking from their home. Don't you have to go someplace to attack?

Like, did we "attack" the British in 1812?


----------



## Shusha (Oct 1, 2018)

Defensive terrorism. 

Can it get any more ridiculous?  Oh wait don't answer that. I know it can. Slow genocide.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Customary and Statutory Law in the European Union, and other Nations of the World, define terrorist offenses:
> 
> (a) attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;
> (b) attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;
> ...


Well, that defines Israel.


----------



## Ecocertifmrl (Oct 1, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


By withholding water?


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, you are wrong...  But I can see that there is no changing your mind.  (See *Posting #904*)



P F Tinmore said:


> Well, that defines Israel.


*(COMMENT)*

There is a difference between:

✪  The Israelis in the role of the Occupation Power in support of the protection of sovereignty and territorial integrity... using the same methods as any similar conventional warfare appartus of the 21st Century. 
............................................................................  •• AND ••
✪  The Arab Palestinians using terrorist acts to intentionally prevent the success in the establishment of order and safety.​
For so long as the Arab Palestinian see Armed Struggle and Jihadism/Radical Activism as the preferred method of diplomacy over the Principles of the Rule of Law - and - Principles of Freindly Relations, so long will they paint themselves as standing outside the International Conventions, the Heague Regulations, with the Customary and International Humanitarian Law.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Well, you are wrong...  But I can see that there is no changing your mind.  (See *Posting #904*)
> ...


Israel attacks Palestinians in Palestine.

Palestinians attack Israelis in Palestine.

So why do the Palestinian get called terrorists?


----------



## Coyote (Oct 1, 2018)

Is Gaza allowed to enter independent trade agreements with other nations?


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, the flaw_!_



P F Tinmore said:


> Israel attacks Palestinians in Palestine.


*(COMMENT)*

Israel (1948 - to - Present) did not initiate any attack on the Arab Palestinians.  It was a matter of retaliation and response to attacks and acts of aggression.  




P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinians attack Israelis in Palestine.


*(COMMENT)*

The Arab Palestinians initiated several thousand attacks on Israel.
Even the latest attacks at the border were initiated by the Arab Palestinians. 



P F Tinmore said:


> So why do the Palestinian get called terrorists?


*(COMMENT)*

One more time, see Posting See *Posting #904*.

Without writing my own book, I think Posting #904 condenses it all down to the salient points most talked about. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Again, the flaw_!_
> ...



After all this time I am finally getting it! He considers Israel to be part of “ Palestine “ so that is his rationale.


----------



## Mindful (Oct 1, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...



Has he said anything about Jordan?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Israel (1948 - to - Present) did not initiate any attack on the Arab Palestinians. It was a matter of retaliation and response to attacks and acts of aggression.


Then what were they doing in Palestine?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Oct 1, 2018)

Mindful said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...






P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Israel (1948 - to - Present) did not initiate any attack on the Arab Palestinians. It was a matter of retaliation and response to attacks and acts of aggression.
> ...



Here we go again. The man who puts his foot in his mouth everytime he posts;  “


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You've only asked half a question.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Israel (1948 - to - Present) did not initiate any attack on the Arab Palestinians. It was a matter of retaliation and response to attacks and acts of aggression.
> ...


*(CLARIFICATION)*

Q:  "[W]hat were they doing in Palestine?"

RESPONSE:  WHEN?  1948, 1967, 1973, 1994, yesterday - today → just when_*?*_

You have to give me a date and location...

v/r
R


----------



## member (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Well, you are wrong...  But I can see that there is no changing your mind.  (See *Posting #904*)
> ...






 *"Well...............




.......... you are wrong..."* 










*




". . .But I can see that there is no changing* 

 *your mind."*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> ✪ Helping Israel perform its duties and employ the necessary measures in it's power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety under Article 43 of the Harue Regulation.


Israel destroys homes and businesses, destroys crops and trees, destroys water sources, steals land, controls travel trade and tourism, throttles the economy, gasses and shoots unarmed protestors.

What does that have to do with public order and safety?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  ILOVEISRAEL,  et al,
> 
> This is a one-sided opinion on the part of the various pro-Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) Movements.
> ...


How much of this data dump applies to the Palestinian that does not apply to Israel more?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RESPONSE: WHEN? 1948, 1967, 1973, 1994, yesterday - today →


Yes.


----------



## flacaltenn (Oct 1, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Is Gaza allowed to enter independent trade agreements with other nations?



Gaza is under multi-national embargo for being governed by a terrorist proxy of Iran and a danger to Egypt as well as Israel -- AND THEIR OWN Palestinian Authority.. 

YET -- They DO survive on UNWRA funds and various NGO support? What aid do you think Gaza ought to get? Because they are powered and watered and fed by Israel.. That's MORE AID than they get from Mahmoud Abbas or the rest of the ENTIRE Arab world.

Why did you bring this up? You got a plan to re-unite the Palestinians or something?


----------



## Ecocertifmrl (Oct 1, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Is Gaza allowed to enter independent trade agreements with other nations?
> ...


More like an Israeli embargo


----------



## Ecocertifmrl (Oct 1, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Why single Palestine out?
> ...


where?


----------



## Shusha (Oct 1, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Is Gaza allowed to enter independent trade agreements with other nations?



They clearly have no trouble with trade agreements with Iran.


----------



## Shusha (Oct 1, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel destroys homes and businesses, destroys crops and trees, destroys water sources ...



Only those illegally built in Area C.  How's the farming going along the fence line at Gaza?  Pumpkins ready yet?


----------



## Mindful (Oct 2, 2018)

Speaking of funds. Did you know:

The United States is doing more to fight Yemen's Humanitarian Crisis than the Press knows?


----------



## Ecocertifmrl (Oct 2, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Ecocertifmrl said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...


Some people like to translate the arab word _awliya _as _friend, _but others translate it as meaning _ally, patron, protector _or _guardian. 
_
When the Quran says this it refers to the jewish-christian -coalation that attacked Islam and was in fact predicted to do so. It does not refer to all jewish and christian people.

The part about believers and non-believers is about a muslim siding with unbelievers against their fellow muslims.

I don't see where lying comes into it.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arab Palestinians always tried to play the victim and the good guys!  They try to portray themselves as guys who didn't know they were bad guys doing bad things. They are villains that run into walls all the time and are not intellectually able to workout the dilemma as if pinned in a coffin.   But they don't think they are doing anything wrong murder, terror, mayhem; but nothing wrong. IIn many ways they think they are cunning and smart.  When the Arab Palestinian break laws and ethical rules, they justify it in their own terms. 

We live in a world where Arab Palestinian thinks they do the right thing when they use 
intimidation, extortion, and the destabilizing or the destruction of fundamental political, economic or social structures.   
What is very dangerous is that 
they truly believe they are entitled to do wrong
simply because they believed they were the victims of a political wrong.  
So as far as they are concerned --- the ends can justify the means.​


P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ✪ Helping Israel perform its duties and employ the necessary measures in it's power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety under Article 43 of the Harue Regulation.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Remember that it was and has been, for nearly a century, the policy of the Arab Palestinian People to roam outside the political process and reject the opportunities to be involved in the self-governing institutions that establish the conditions that developed the destruction of homes and businesses, crops and trees.  It was the choices made by the Arab Palestinians that set the conditions that lost them the control of minerialrights and water aquifers as well as the diversion of lands and properties.  The adverse consequences felt in the economy are a direct result of, NOT peaceful and neighborly actions, but the fear they project in the Middle East and abroad.  The Arab Palestinians do not represent a positive value to adjacent neighbors.  No one is beating down the door asking for more Arab Palestinian representation.  It is exactly the opposite.  The thriving nations of the world want those that can contribute at the advanced level. The Middle East and the world want Nobel Lauriet quality people; engineers and scientists --- medical professionals and exemplarary academisians.   No one is asking for skilled Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters in the form of Arab Palestinians.



P F Tinmore said:


> How much of this data dump applies to the Palestinian that does not apply to Israel more?


*(COMMENT)*

Countries that successfully defend against the Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters of the world, also are adept at using deadly force.  The Arab Palestinian plays the part of the victim as a means to justify their use of death, destruction, intimidation, and coercion as a means to secure their objective through alternative means of peaceful negotiation.  

Nothing in "this data dump applies" to Israel's reflect and response to hostilities originating from the Arab Palestinians policy of "Armed Struggle" and "jihad."



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RESPONSE: WHEN? 1948, 1967, 1973, 1994, yesterday - today →
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

•  In 1948, the Arab League invaded Israel as an act of aggression under the false color of liberation.
•  In 1967, the Arab League pushed peace keepers out of the way and attempt to intimidate Israel with massing military forces on the borders.
•  In 1973, the Arab League launched a sneak attack on the Jewish Religious Holiday of Yom Kipper.
etc, etc, etc
•  Today, the Hostile Arab Palestinian is demonstrating on mass on the border of Israel and proclaiming that they will come across and kill Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## rylah (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



By applying the same standards as in similar cases.
The US, unfortunately has vast experience of dealing with catastrophic events on its' soil.

As for the civil war between Hamas and PLO all aid should be stopped, *dry them up until all weapons they've left is forks.* In my opinion only viable investment is in regional cooperation and normalization,anything else is counterproductive and prolonging the problem.


----------



## rylah (Oct 2, 2018)

Ecocertifmrl said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ecocertifmrl said:
> ...


That's ironic,
isn't this whole thread about the frustration of You Jihadi welfare frauds?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> We live in a world where Arab Palestinian thinks they do the right thing when they use
> intimidation, extortion, and the destabilizing or the destruction of fundamental political, economic or social structures.
> What is very dangerous is that
> they truly believe they are entitled to do wrong
> ...


The Palestinians have been under military occupation, by world superpowers, for a hundred years and you say they are the aggressor.

You are too funny.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Remember that it was and has been, for nearly a century, the policy of the Arab Palestinian People to roam outside the political process and reject the opportunities to be involved in the self-governing institutions that establish the conditions that developed the destruction of homes and businesses, crops and trees.


Many times the Palestinians have been "offered" to surrender and hold their hand out for whatever crumbs they could get.

Why should the Palestinians be the ones to surrender?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> • Today, the Hostile Arab Palestinian is demonstrating on mass on the border of Israel and proclaiming that they will come across and kill Israelis.


It is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Countries that successfully defend against the Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters of the world, also are adept at using deadly force.


The Palestinians are attacked every day yet they are expected to sit on their hands.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 2, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Countries that successfully defend against the Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters of the world, also are adept at using deadly force.
> ...


I guess those 10,000 rockets, missiles, attacks by Islamic terrorists over the last decades are just an entitlement?


----------



## rylah (Oct 2, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Countries that successfully defend against the Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters of the world, also are adept at using deadly force.
> ...



How about BDS and their handers stop promising to behead every Jew _*"from the river to the sea"?*_


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Where do you get that shit?


----------



## member (Oct 2, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 It’s all…..twisted.


At least you have the sequence right. 




…oh, and this bl_ai_se attitude – a rocket falls at the feet of the jewish guy, and the guy has his hands in his pockets… as if it’s to be taken lightly…[

 no biggie, just a big-ole-rocket aimed at me _which was meant to kill me_ <~~~~ all I was doing was walking down the block] ….


....the sequence is right.   How should Israel respond/react/retaliate to Palestinians starting trouble….

at least here you finally 

 admitted it:  _who starts shit....._


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Oct 2, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> The anti Semite card is no longer the ace of trump.




Offering the opinion that it should be open season on Jews because they are Jews goes well beyond ordinary antisemitism.

 Your desire to kill Jews is emblematic of the greater problem, here, in that far too many of your fellow Arabs share this view. Like you, the other terrorist propagandists inverse the relationship between cause and effect so as to fool those of low IQ into becoming terrorist supporters.

The terrorism is the CAUSE of Israel's targeting of the locations from which it arose. The resulting strike to eliminate the source of the terrorism, the effect.

 Not a single dime should be funneled to support such sickness.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> The Arab Palestinians always tried to play the victim and the good guys!  They try to portray themselves as guys who didn't know they were bad guys doing bad things. They are villains that run into walls all the time and are not intellectually able to workout the dilemma as if pinned in a coffin.   But they don't think they are doing anything wrong murder, terror, mayhem; but nothing wrong. IIn many ways they think they are cunning and smart.  When the Arab Palestinian break laws and ethical rules, they justify it in their own terms.
> ​



 In my opinion, they ARE cunning in the way they have gone about wooing the world leftists.  Looking at the sheer number of their useful idiots, both in this forum as well as world wide, they have been extraordinarily successful in their propaganda.

 First, the Arab propagandists created a brand new "Palestinian" people out of whole cloth.  They hammered home themes that instead of the arab aggression starting wars, it was these "Palestinians" who were victims.  They whipped up a new name for it, appealing to emotion -- the Nakba -- as if their leaving during the war they started was somehow equivalent to the Holocaust.

 Today, we hear all sorts of claptrap about "Bantustans" as the propagandists borrow terms from other conflicts sure to hit all the right buttons. They invent a word to describe resistance to their aggression, "Islamophobia" and then proceed to market it as the equivalent of antisemitism. All the language they use is crafted quite cynically to appeal to the sensibilities of low IQ leftists through various appeals to popularity, tu quoque fallacies and emotional hand wring, all of which their most dutiful leftist acolytes repeat as if gospel.  Heck, there are people in this very forum who devote their entire being into repeating this gospel, so successful they have been in creating this illusion.

IMO, they don't just think they are cunning, they ARE cunning. All their devoted followers who are absolutely incapable of moral reasoning lies as proof to that.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Is Gaza allowed to enter independent trade agreements with other nations?
> ...


What trade agreements do they have?


----------



## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Aid for prograns like that is part of what was cut.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


One really cannot call it trade, what occurs between Gaza and Iran.

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/05/gaza-islamic-jihad-and-iranian-arms.html

Iran supplied Hamas with Fajr-5 missile technology

Iran "finding ways" to supply more weapons to Hamas


----------



## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


ok....

Then what real trade agreements has Gaza been able to establish?  Or West Bank?


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I cannot believe we are still talking about this. If Mexico treated the US the way Hamas treats Israel there would be no more Mexico.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Do you have any idea why there might not be actual direct trades between Hamas/Gaza and Europe or other countries?

They already attempt to pass items to use to attack Israel via the free truck which go into Gaza on a daily basis.

What do you think that Hamas would be more than interested in importing into Gaza?

And what has Hamas done to allow exports (although they do exist via Israel) from Gaza?

How does Hamas allow agriculture to flourish?

Exports?  Here :

Gisha  |  Exit of goods from Gaza via Kerem Shalom Crossing

The same goes for the "West Bank"

What would they import?  Weapons to attack Israel with.


Someone may have a better article of exports from Gaza than this one.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

There is a lot of sniping and *extreme* off topic diversions occurring.  Once again...we cleaned and this time warnings and thread bans occurred...

If it continues, we will have more thread bans.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Can you answer the question?  If we are removing aid what trade options exist?


----------



## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


How about starting with the first step instead of whataboutisms.  DO they have trade the ability to form trade agreements with other nations?


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



ZERO. Gaza is a terror state run by a terror group. They have zero trade rights. Similarly how prisoners don't have any consumer rights when they are in prison.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > AzogtheDefiler said:
> ...


Do they have zero ability to grow their economy.

What about West Bank?


----------



## rylah (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



That's what You say, yet when asked to show one such effective program You come back with some kumbaya hippie dance classes.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



ZERO. Until Hamas is voted out. Cannot deal with internationally recognized terror groups. WB and Fatah is different. I would work with them although Fatah is corrupt they are not nearly as bad as Hamas. That being said I don't see a two state solution. I see 90% of the palestinians going elsewhere and 10% absorbed by Israel. One state but mostly Jewish. 

I could of course be wrong.


----------



## rylah (Oct 2, 2018)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > AzogtheDefiler said:
> ...



PLO and Hamas are not different, Hamas is just more barbaric and open about their intentions, while PLO members who received western education use more "polite" language (if one could really call it like that, for lack of better term) to describe their genocidal intentions.

It's basically a poor parody of bad/good cop - both are professional racketeers.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You do know very well that there are people in Gaza and West Bank who are farmers and have always grown their own food and necessities.

Gaza receives endless truckloads with necessities.  They are not missing on anything.

Hamas and the PA continue to chose to take the aid and put it into their pockets, as much as they can.

That is the aid which is being put a stop to.

They have unemployment?
Ask Hamas and the PA why they refuse to create jobs, or why the PA sometimes comes up with the decision to stop Palestinians from working in Jewish settlements or in Israel?

And especially ask, why those very same Palestinians have given a thumbs down to the PA and gone to work for Jews in area C and in Israel, regardless of what Abbas wants or thinks they should be doing.  

Which is to strike against the Jews and Israel and do without the money they need to have a decent living.


----------



## rylah (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



They could start with Egypt,
once they stop all the contraband from Sinai, cooperation with ISIS and Iranian militias.

It's ridiculous to play the victim card in this situation, when they consistently choose to align with everyone's enemy in the region.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


better solutions at lower cost is the shape of aid we should be providing in the region of the Middle East.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> ...


What solutions, which anyone else at the UN, Israel, etc has not thought about?

We are talking about the Palestinians and how the leaders take what they want and provide hardly anything to the rest of the population.

What solution is there for that?


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


In the extra-ordinary world, we could simply ask a Dey, to go to the Middle East, to "save the day".


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


Dey is a caliphate.  There is no "save the day"
No one wants to go into that hornet's nest.
And Hamas and the PLO would be the first ones to be against them since they are the ones in power.
They will attack anyone who tries to take power from them.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


no, it isn't.  it would be purely secular and temporal.  

A deylicate of Palestine could ensure progress toward a more developed world in the region.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


Again, how do you propose to get rid of Hamas, all the other terror groups, and the PLO and Abbas who will not give up his Presidency?


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


That is what a dey is for; a lord, both spiritual and temporal; the People really can render all of their problems, unto their lord and dey.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


Start a thread about Dey.

This is a thread about reshaping the aid the Palestinians are getting.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


it can Only happen in the extra Ordinary world?  it merely should require Ten simple Commandments from a God or a lord and dey.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


Then you are in the wrong community.  This is the Politics community and not the Religion one.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


what shape do You believe aid in that region, should be?


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


We are not talking about the region.
We are talking about aid to Gaza and the WB.

They get more than enough aid from everywhere, including Iran, which they usually use as weapons against Israel.

What other aid do they need, which they are not already getting?


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


is that the dilemma?  it should be about Peace in historic Palestine.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


You keep getting off topic.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Peace is a re-shapement of aid to historic Palestine.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  Coyote, et al,

While neither the West Bank or the Gaza Strip have specific trade agreements; it does not mean there is no trade:

West Bank* *+ Gaza Strip** Exports:*
$1.955 billion (2017 est.) $1.827 billion (2016 est.) ​
West Bank + Gaza Strip** Imports:*
$6.476 billion (2017 est.) $6.11 billion (2016 est.)
​While no one claims that the economy of the Territories is flourishing _(Ranked 142)(whereas Israel Ranked ≈ 45 @ Imports: $60B)_.  But as we discussed before, neither the Ramallah Government nor the Gaza Government is reinvesting revenue back into the infrastructure and the economy.  They don't even have a plan _(or for that matter a Prospectus)_ for the development of Areas "A" or "B."

* NOTE:  The Jerusalem Economy and the does not include the 
...............Sharia-compliant Finance and, of course, effects of the Wadiah.​


Coyote said:


> Can you answer the question?  If we are removing aid what trade options exist?


*(COMMENT)*

There is no real (unclassified) textbook on the subject of the financial interests of either government _(Gaza of Ramallah)_.  Not only is there a matter of Donor Contributions, but there are also undisclosed external covert sources and the contemporary Islamic movements.

On an open market scale, the economies of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is parasitic.  Essentially, the Central Bank for the both is the Palestinian Monetary Authority (PMA).  It was an outcome of the Oslo I Accords (1994).  For all practical purposes, US Aid has little effect on the operation of the PMA in matters of financial stability and sustainable economic growth.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


1)  There is no "Historic Palestine"
2)  You are continuously moving the topic from aid to peace.

You have no solutions at all.


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## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



morals from a God don't seem to be enough; maybe orders from a dey, may.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> The adverse consequences felt in the economy are a direct result of, NOT peaceful and neighborly actions, but the fear they project in the Middle East and abroad.  The Arab Palestinians do not represent a positive value to adjacent neighbors.



I think this is one of the key points in your post.  

The Arab Palestinians want to be able to choose resistance (read: terrorism, violence, anti-peace, war, military conflict) while also expecting a robust and vibrant economy (even without their own active participation in such).  

Those two things are mutually incompatible.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Why should the Palestinians be the ones to surrender?



Well, if for no other reason, because they are losing.  Badly.  

But ultimately, its because their end game will result in a terrible injustice.  A compromise solution benefits everyone.  And is just for everyone.


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## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The adverse consequences felt in the economy are a direct result of, NOT peaceful and neighborly actions, but the fear they project in the Middle East and abroad.  The Arab Palestinians do not represent a positive value to adjacent neighbors.
> ...


in other words, no solutions from the right wing.  what a coincidence.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



It was sarcasm, Coyote.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Then what real trade agreements has Gaza been able to establish?



The astonishing thing is that they have managed to convince you and a large portion of the international community that a government which is a terrorist organization, commits terrorist attacks against its neighbor, incites States to violent acts and war-mongers should HAVE real trade agreements and not be subjected to a multi-national embargo.

Its insane.  Once again, economic success happens only in the absence of terrorism and belligerence.  The standard, worldwide, is -- and should be -- we don't engage in diplomatic relations and trade agreements with terrorists and belligerent enemies.  When the violence stops -- that's when we start to build a different sort of relationship.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


You should tell us about this historic Palestine of yours some day

What are the names of its leaders going back through history? Who were its writers and poets and musicians?  What are the names of its diplomats who negotiated with other people?  Who were its generals leading their defense.

Enquiring minds want to know of this fabled land of yours .


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Do they have zero ability to grow their economy.



That's rather the point when it comes to things like embargos as a response to belligerence.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



On the contrary.  The solution is inherent in my post.  Its up the Arab Palestinians to choose war or a thriving nation and live with the consequences of their choice.


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## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


in the ordinary world, let's just say, it may require a dey.

A Roman Prefect was not enough.  That would be the structure.  A deylicate of Palestine.

It merely requires moral fortitude, to have a purely ceremonial dey.

Otherwise, it should require some social contract and Constitution.

Let's just say, that a mission of the dey, is to promote progress in that region.  Even if it may require, an arsenal of the deylicate, to do it. 

Having recourse to another layer of Government, should help with issues of the Domestic Tranquility of any local Government.


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## flewism (Oct 2, 2018)

Any US aid to the people attempting to create Palestine is just a donation to terrorism.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...




You are speaking largely nonsense words.  But if you want someone to promote progress in that region -- it already exists.  Is called Israel.


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## danielpalos (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
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it takes morals to obey Ten simple Commandments from a God.

a dey really could say; render all of your problems unto me.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Then what real trade agreements has Gaza been able to establish?
> ...





Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Then what real trade agreements has Gaza been able to establish?
> ...




What I find astonishing is how I watched the assassination of Bobby Kennedy by the same group that now flies its flag at the democratic national convention.

Take one Egyptian terrorist, have him learn some propaganda techniques from his uncle who just happened to be a card carrying Nazi, watch as he invents a brand new people out of whole cloth and utilizes every trick in the book from such an education, and in just two generations, up becomes down, black becomes white and evil becomes good.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2018)

Ecocertifmrl said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Then you know very little about it.  The PAuthority is the one withholding electricity payments for Gaza. And withholding other aid as well for over a decade now. The 2 factions have TRIED about a dozen times to reconcile. All ending in failure or in some cases assassinations. And Egypt adamantly imposes MORE restrictions and import/export sanctions than Israel does.


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
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It was an individual who killed Kennedy. Not a group.


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Do they have zero ability to grow their economy.
> ...



What about the West Bank?


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> While neither the West Bank or the Gaza Strip have specific trade agreements; it does not mean there is no trade:
> ...


Here is another question, who do they export to and import from?


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
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Every terrorist is an individual.

Like  Sirhan Sirhan   the other Pally  terrorists murder for the same cause .

Kennedy was killed by an Arab because Kennedy supported Israel.


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

#EUTrade news


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## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ danielpalos, et al,

I don't think that a question, asking for a "solution" was asked.

SubRef:  •  rylah's Posting #933. 



danielpalos said:


> in other words, no solutions from the right wing.  what a coincidence.


*(COMMENT)*

Solutions to the conflict, and to the economy, are closely aligned.  But nothing suggested is in the realm of a working and viable solution, can be assembled until there is an agreement on the goal and end-state.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 2, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→ danielpalos, et al,
> 
> I don't think that a question, asking for a "solution" was asked.
> ...


His interest is in a religious solution, not a political one.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The PA should pay their hospital bills instead of paying for the belligerence that is terrorism. Removing aide payments is step one of an embargo. Point is exactly the same.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ...




Well I know from the article I'm submitting that 80% of all West Bank exports go to Israel. And about 25% of materials is imported from Israel. It's like Israels own "captive" trading partner. That NEEDS to change. But like everything in a peace proposal -- it's NOT ENTIRELY FIXED BY ISRAEL.  There are issues with West Bank trade with Egypt and Jordan as well. 

In the case of Jordan, it's a lot of "protectionism" and only a bit of bad feelings. But Egypt isn't really doing much to encourage trade with the West Bank Palis either. 

They NEED a Mediterranean seaport and their own Customs and airport. That's only gonna come from a peace proposal that sets a vision for the WHOLE neighborhood.


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## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

To answer your question on trading partners.



			
				According to the OEC said:
			
		

> The top export destinations of Palestine are Israel ($770M), Jordan ($67M), Saudi Arabia ($19.9M), the United Arab Emirates ($18.3M) and Qatar ($10M). The top import origins are Israel ($2.93B), Turkey ($309M), China ($282M), Jordan ($173M) and Germany ($128M).
> LINK:  *Observatory of Economic Complexity* (OEC - MIT) -



The OEC has a really nice visual breakdown.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


So now the West Bank will be under embargo as well?


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere.  But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do. 

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export. 

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Is that a problem for you?  Why?


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do.  It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.


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## Indeependent (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a bitch, ain’t it.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Okay. So if someone is being belligerent and you can't place economic sanctions against them And you can't respond with military action, what is the solution to belligerence?


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## fncceo (Oct 2, 2018)

One thousand plus posts on a subject that personally affects .01% of everyone here.

I can only hazard a guess why this particular subject elicits such emotions.


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Being belligerent how?


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So, to be clear, you are fine with embargos as a response to belligerence?  Yes or no?


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
> ...



It is not a simple yes or no.  It depends on how you define belligerence.  Is ugly rhetoric belligerence?  And how extreme the embargo is.  At what point does it become a siege?


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



And how did you leap to genocide? You think those WBank Palis buying into expensive flats and condos in Wahabi are concerned with genocide??


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Actually I might have to rethink my answer.  Embargo, blockade and siege are three very distinct terms with different meanings.  I didn’t realize it until I looked it up.

'Blockade' and 'Embargo' Have Different Meanings


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence.  I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence.  I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.  

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence?  Yes or no?


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment.  The extrem end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?


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## Coyote (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Yes.  It is a legitimate response to state sponsored belligerence in the form of ACTIONS.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going *through* Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



That would be extreme. But it's had 50 years to happen and it hasn't. Israel isn't "punishing" the West Bank. Those cities do not LOOK punished -- do they? In terms of Pali life elsewhere in the Mid East.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Israel can stop its belligerence any time it wants.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook.. 

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment.  The extreme end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?




Well, I suppose you could always try being more sympathetic to those who have actually experienced one and a whole lot less sympathetic to those who wish to perpetrate another one.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So we would agree that both embargos and blockades are not actually "collective punishment" but legitimate responses to belligerence, yes?


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Sure.  And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan.  Not hard.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



By belligerence, on the part of Israel, do you mean the blockade?  She absolutely can stop that at any time.  She won't until there is some indication that Gaza will stop attacking Israel.  Gaza can also stop the belligerence any time.


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## Shusha (Oct 2, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Wait.  Are you arguing against embargo?


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



AND into Egypt as well. *The type of "aid" the Palestinians need is a peace proposal that PROVIDES that incentive for them and the Arab neighbors. And the connectivity to trade and commerce that's always left for last details in a peace process. *

I'm only leaving this Palestine Trade Zone map up tonight. Consider it a "teaser" until I negotiate publication rights, but instead of focusing on a map on a table and quarrelling over marginal land that's either to steep to support development or too barren and inaccessible, you need to START the negotiations with a vision for entire neighborhood.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Israel won't let that happen. Israel has always throttled Palestine's economy.


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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I think your assumption that its only a matter of providing the "right" incentive is the solution, is wrong and naive.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


No, I mean the destruction of homes, farms, and factories. Stealing land and shooting unarmed civilians.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Our history with embargoes is not really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy..  It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule...  But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Its in Israel's best interests to let it happen.  As long as Israel's security is not threatened.  Stop attacking Israel and she will let it happen.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



It's an incentive for Jordan, Egypt, eventually Lebanon to solve THEIR PART of the Palis in exile problems. For the Palis themselves, that incentive is to RE-UNITE all of them under a flag of Palestine in a way that provides a certain future and great chances to actually THRIVE economically. Without digging for that hectare of land in the West Bank during peace negotiations. 

AID -- wouldn't even an issue 20 years hence. The Palis are SMACK in the middle of Middle East trade like their ancestors were 2800 years ago. 

*How long you think Hamas could hold on to control with a Trade Corridor like that one in the map I provided and NO connection to Gaza. While watching the West Bank take advantage of the "incentive"??? 
*


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?!  Cough cough.  Are you kidding me?  The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
> ...



It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
> ...


You clearly do not understand this conflict.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
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> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Indeed, Israel must defend its settler colonial project.


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Blah, blah, blah.  Just like I don't understand legal documents like the Mandate for Palestine.  /sarcasm


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

It's the differ


Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
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> > Shusha said:
> ...




It solves SOMETHING. If you're Israel and willing to perpetually absorb the economic and social costs of enforcing a blockade and embargo and police actions and providing life lines to Gaza. But if the objective is to swap Hamas for a better "partner in peace" --- that's not gonna work. According to all experience with blockades and embargoes.

1) Iraq -- we HAD to end the awful policy of bombing Iraq daily and killing off nearly 300,000 by a CHOICE of invasion. But it could not continue over 12 years with no diplomatic movement. The other choice was to "walk away", but neither party had the balls to do that.

2) The Kim Jung's and NK --- same deal.  Ultimate solution was war or diplomacy. L'il Kim Chee is caving because he ADMIRES and covets things he can't afford like basketball, golf, and western booze.

3) Iran -- might have "forced" them to negotiate. But the negotiators were inept and the "peace" dubious at best.

4) Cuba -- Would never work. Never will.

*What do all those have in common with Gaza? They are all dictatorial rogue states where the leaders and the elite don't get hurt by embargo/blockades.* The tolerance for punishment is awfully damn high. And even HIGHER in lands that don't place primary value on standard of living or infrastructure. IE --- like the Arab states or NK

So what's the long term strategery here to echo GWBush? Is it to FIND a solution? Or is it perpetual expenditure of life and resources to "contain" a threat? Is it CONFLICT or solution?

We never learn. We're the stupid ones. Aid to the Palestinians? Israel is the largest supplier of "aid" and necessary services to the Palestinians. How long do they want to be in that position while getting vilified all over the world by Palestine sympathizers and hypocrites?


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## rylah (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it,  far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
*IMHO *


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## Indeependent (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The ultimate Liberal stance is to empathize with the loser, even if the loser is the agressor.
And where is this genocide occurring?
Certainly not amongst the ever growing “Palestinian” population.


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## Mindful (Oct 3, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Has grown 8 fold or more since 1948.


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ flacaltenn, Shusha, Coyote, et al,

Imbargos, tariffs and sanctions are all alternative political means or political pain and punishment - to armed struggle, war, and low-intensity conflicts.  It is not equivalent to "genocide" as legally intended to be understood by international law. 

Article 6 • Genocide • Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC)
For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed
with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious
group, as such:

(a)  Killing members of the group;
(b)  Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c)  Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring
about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d)  Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e)  Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.​The targets have always been members of state-sponsored designated terrorists or a Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) _(Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters)_.   The intent was the elimination of the HoAP threat and not the Arab Palestinian Population.  Civilian casualties were largely a failure of the HoAP to remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives (Rule #24 Customary & IHL).

*NOTE:* More and more, I see people in discussions, all over the place, misuse terminology, caught-up in the emotion of propaganda. Or they tend to confuse the terms.  The four major criminal case the ICC hears fall into either:  _(These are not all the same thing, and they are not interchangeable terms.)_

(a)  The crime of genocide;
(b)  Crimes against humanity;
(c)  War crimes;
(d)  The crime of aggression​​


Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


→


flacaltenn said:


> Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..
> 
> Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.


*(COMMENT)*

All too many times the HoAP uses such terms as "genocide" in an appeal to the international community (a logical fallacy) in a manipulation of emotions in order as a means to sway public opinion in the absence of factual evidence.



 




Reference: knoema.com/atlas/palestine/topics/demographics/population/population …​As you can see from the charts, you can also see that the TRUE EVIDENCE is in the growth rate of the Arab Palestinian is almost (not quite) an exponential growth rate _(each at an average of 2%)_.   Now if there were a campaign of genocide (as the Arab Palestinian) propagandist claim, you would not expect to see such a steep upward swing in the population growth.  (FACTUAL EVIDENCE).
Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 3, 2018)

Defunded by US, an unreformed UNRWA finds European support


----------



## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→ flacaltenn, Shusha, Coyote, et al,
> 
> Imbargos, tariffs and sanctions are all alternative political means or political pain and punishment - to armed struggle, war, and low-intensity conflicts.  It is not equivalent to "genocide" as legally intended to be understood by international law.
> ...



Just as an fyi...I used genocide carefully.  Not in relation to embargos but to a a comment on collective punishment.  You have to admit, genocide is thr ultimate collective punishment.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Who said it was?


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground.  There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized.  Each adds their own bias' to events.  Of course you like Trump.  He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...





Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews.  It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Flac, you need to look at tbe context of the conversation which was along the lines of "why not put an embargo on the West Bank" not that thete is one.  If we did so it would be collective punishment.


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## Indeependent (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Because the West Bank leadership is openly, and *violently*, hostile towards their neighbor.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


So?  Are they shooting rockets?  Bombing?

So any country that is openly "hostile"regardless of real threat or tbe context of the conflict, should be embargoed.  You are going to have a long list.


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## Indeependent (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Do you follow the news?
Israel had to build an electronic fence around the entire country to stop schools and homes from homicide invasions.
Why don’t you see this in context?
Jews never walk into a school in Arab territory and machine gun students to death.


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> So?  Are they shooting rockets?  Bombing?
> 
> So any country that is openly "hostile"regardless of real threat or tbe context of the conflict, should be embargoed.  You are going to have a long list.



They are openly calling for an(other) intifada and PAYING people to kill Jews.  The government is encouraging its citizens to murder Jews with both words and resources.  The government is even creating false accusations against Jews, such as Al Aqsa being under dire threat, in order to stir up the population to murder Jews.  

What is the answer to that sort of belligerent government action against a neighboring State and its citizens?


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Just as an fyi...I used genocide carefully.  Not in relation to embargos but to a a comment on collective punishment.  You have to admit, genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.




 You used the term genocide in order to deceive.

 There has been no genocide committed against the made up group of Arabs called "Palestinian", nor has there been anything even remotely close to it. Their population has exploded in the last several decades, so it is an insult to people's intelligence that you try to link the term "genocide" to the standard terrorist propaganda term "collective punishment" to suggest that it applies to this situation.  It doesn't.

The only people of the two to have experienced genocide are the Jews, and the only group ADVOCATING genocide are Palestinian. Genocide is one of the listed objectives of Hamas, which promises to kill Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees.


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> ...you try to link the term "genocide" to the standard terrorist propaganda term "collective punishment" to suggest that it applies to this situation.



Its also another example of applying a double standard to Israel where common and accepted political and military strategies are re-labelled as something else so as to demonize Israel.  No where else are embargos, blockades and defending your own borders defined as "collective punishment".


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Its also another example of applying a double standard to Israel where common and accepted political and military strategies are re-labelled as something else so as to demonize Israel.  No where else are embargos, blockades and defending your own borders defined as "collective punishment".



 She is just repeating the made up buzz terms she finds at the terrorist sites she finds to make up her world view. All the Pally Propagandists use the same jargon as their posts are filled with the de rigueur phrases like "Bantustans", "Collective Punishment" and "open air prisons" so carefully selected for them. 

 She might as well claim that the bars around a bank vault are "collective punishment" towards all would-be bank robbers as she tries to use the bars to justify robbing the bank.

 The terrorist propaganda sites use the term "collective punishment" to justify terrorism in a similar fashion. While such silly ruses do not work on those with an awareness of the conflict gained through a legitimate educational process, they seems to be quite seductive for virtue signaling warriors who know nothing whatsoever, and are looking to fill the void.


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ flacaltenn, Shusha, Indeependent, Coyote, et al,

While it is often spoken of, Collective Punishment is not really applicable to the Conflict relative to the embargos, blockades, sanctions, and other restrictions.  Collective Punishments, not mentioned directly in the Statues of the International Criminal Courts, is to prevent "one side" _(of the struggle)_ from lining-up the innocent citizens of the "other side" _(of the struggle)_, and executing them for a crime they did not commit or as a human reprisal for some aggrieved action.

The prohibition against collective punishment has been in place for hundreds of years as a customary practive; but, is formally defined in:



			
				Hague Regulation 1907 said:
			
		

> No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible.





Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

* Economic Sanctions *
The* Council on Foreign Relations defines sanctions* as "a lower-cost, lower-risk, middle course of action between diplomacy and war." Money is that middle course, and economic sanctions are the means. Some of the *most common punitive financial measures* include:

*Tariffs*: Surcharges on imported goods, often imposed to aid domestic industries and markets.
*Quotas*: Limits on the number of goods that may be imported or exported. 
*Embargoes*: Restrictions on or cessation of trading with a nation or bloc of nations. These can include limiting or banning travel by individuals to and from nations.
*Non-tariff barriers*: These are designed to make foreign goods more expensive by complying with onerous regulatory requirements.
*Asset seizure/freeze*: Capturing or holding the financial assets of nations, citizens, or preventing the sale or moving of those assets. 
Economic Sanctions is an umbrella term that covers a multitude of actions including the meaning of an "Embargoes."  The list is not all-inclusive. 

It is not the same thing as "Collective Punishments."  In fact, you will notice that Article 8 (War Crimes) in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court does not specifically address "Collective Punishment."  But there are a number of provisions listed in Article 8 that are adequate replacements for the true intention of the Article 50 (HR 1907) original intent.  We should be careful not to apply humanitarian views in an interpretation of a 100-year-old law.​
Most Respectfully,
R


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles? 

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.  

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural.  *OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. *As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer.. 

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them. 

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?


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## rylah (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


This is total moral corruption.
Wasn't the same _"let's be fair to all" _rhetoric used by Hitler's American sympathizers when the US decided to "marginalize" the Reich?


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.


Indeed, that is Abbas in a nutshell.


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## rylah (Oct 3, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.
> ...



Hamas any less corrupt?


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## member (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...





 *"So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?"*







 President Trump......





..but, _*"what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?"*_



He's done enough..... 

 finding a *"qualified* [_person_] on the _*pali side"*_....there _"ain't"_ many [none] to choose from....let's just _*"suggest"*_ some people to send over there and try and help broker peace between THE terrorists and israel:


- The Clergy Calvary:













- what about _whats-his-face_ ?







- 


_whadda_ gonna do?





- what about.... Joe? he's good at debates


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Oh brilliant, let’s resort to Hitler comparisons.  Of course ONLY Israel can possibly have the only moral and absolutely correct view.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy.  I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it.  I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct?  This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



I would suggest he start by not throwing the Palestinians under the bus.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


When was the last time they said that?  And who said it?


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Just as an fyi...I used genocide carefully.  Not in relation to embargos but to a a comment on collective punishment.  You have to admit, genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.
> ...


Again.  I have never said Israel committed genocide.  You are deliberately distorting what I say.

Hamas is a terrorist group.

What evidence do you have that the Palestinians are attempting genocide?


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Its also another example of applying a double standard to Israel where common and accepted political and military strategies are re-labelled as something else so as to demonize Israel.  No where else are embargos, blockades and defending your own borders defined as "collective punishment".
> ...



So now I am the topic?  Is that your discussion strategy here?


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



But you ASSUME their IS a "Palestinian position" to take  !!! If that position is so well articulated and represented, the PA would STILL BE in business wouldn't they?  

So you ARE starting with a flawed premise that Israel has all the "partners in peace" lined up at a table -- and that's FAR from the truth. WHO are they supposed to negotiate with --  YOU? 

Where ARE the "Palestinians"?  1/2 of them aren't even enjoying the relative prosperity in Israel, but living in dingy camps under guard of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan.   Do you represent THOSE Palestinians as well? Or only the ones that "tortured and tormented" in Israel?


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"??  Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice?? 

*Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem.* You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Do Palestinians Still Support the Two-State Solution?

 Support for the two-state solution is at its lowest level since Oslo, with only 43 percent of Palestinians saying they would accept it. More than half of the public views the PA as a burden on the Palestinian people, and a large majority, ranging from 60 to 70 percent in 2018, demands the resignation of the PA president, Mahmoud Abbas. Public support for Hamas, the largest Islamist faction in Palestine, stands at about one-third, compared to about 40 percent for Fatah, the mainstream nationalist faction. Confidence in diplomacy has plummeted: only 25 percent of Palestinians believe that a Palestinian state will emerge in the next five years. Violence is increasingly popular, particularly among the youth, and on several occasions during the past three years a majority of the public has supported it.

Not coincidentally, during this same period Israeli settlement construction in occupied Palestine has continued unabated. The size of the settlement enterprise today is four times what it was when Oslo was signed: it has grown from around 100,000 settlements in 1993 to more than 400,000 (not including East Jerusalem or the Gaza Strip) today. In the past few years, 55 to 65 percent of Palestinians have said that they believe that settlement construction has expanded so much that the two-state solution is no longer practical or feasible. On average, three-quarters of those who reach this conclusion shift to opposing the two-state solution, while a similar percentage of those who think the two-state solution remains feasible remain in favor of it. In other words, support for the two-state solution is strongly linked to perceptions of feasibility, and settlements are making it seem unfeasible.

The decline in support for the two-state solution among Israeli Jews parallels that among Palestinians, and the level of public support for it—43 percent—is identical to that among Palestinians. On the Israeli Jewish side, too, support is linked to perceptions of feasibility. Today, almost half of Israeli Jews believe that settlement expansion is making the two-state solution impractical. However, this does not equate to a consensus among Israeli Jews that settlements are destructive to peace-making, because unlike most Palestinians, they don’t necessarily see the two-state solution as the only path to peace. Many Israeli Jews view Palestinian self-rule, a slightly modified version of the status quo, as an acceptable solution.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



What the hell are you talking about? All Palestinians. That is what I am referring to.  And I have not said anything about torturing or tormenting so do not put words in my mouth.  I have also consistently said that Israel lacks a negotiating partner that speaks for all Palestinians so would you stop putting words in my mouth?

In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.
> 
> So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"??  Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??
> 
> *Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem.* You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.


I don’t disagree.  But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.


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## Dan Stubbs (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion.  I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians.   Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering.  However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Wonder how many Millions of Dollars this whole China, solor panels it will take to power the Crap plant.    Oh how about a few RPG by some group to take the many millions of dollars down the drain.  RPG only cost 1,500 each.  I guess Russia China can sell them.*


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Do Palestinians Still Support the Two-State Solution?
> 
> Support for the two-state solution is at its lowest level since Oslo, with only 43 percent of Palestinians saying they would accept it. More than half of the public views the PA as a burden on the Palestinian people, and a large majority, ranging from 60 to 70 percent in 2018, demands the resignation of the PA president, Mahmoud Abbas. Public support for Hamas, the largest Islamist faction in Palestine, stands at about one-third, compared to about 40 percent for Fatah, the mainstream nationalist faction. Confidence in diplomacy has plummeted: only 25 percent of Palestinians believe that a Palestinian state will emerge in the next five years. Violence is increasingly popular, particularly among the youth, and on several occasions during the past three years a majority of the public has supported it.
> 
> ...



The only acceptable solution that could be long term is one that grants Palestinians full and complete rights where ever they are.  That means countries in which refugee camps exist must absorb and grant citizenship to those Palestinians and the others either need complete autonomy in some way or complete and equal Israeli citizenship.  Anything less will just fester.

And keep in mind...almost half of Israeli Jews want to expel all Arabs.  Another significant chunk feels Jews should have more rights than non-Jews in Israel.  That is going to be tough to reconcile.


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## Dan Stubbs (Oct 3, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > "without regard to human suffering"
> ...


*I ll see if I got it right for the past 55 year.  Palestinians hate Jew.  people from Iran hate Jews,  The last time the Jews got a Peace deal the guy was killed by his own Army.  I don't think the Jews should make nicy nicy with the other side.  *


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## Dan Stubbs (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Do Palestinians Still Support the Two-State Solution?
> ...


*Just tell them if they take over part of Iran they can keep it as their own Nation,  That works.  Or tell them France is up for grabs *


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.



And yet -- that had ZERO bearing on the vast majority of Palestinians living around Jerusalem. Those folks are largely on the road OUT of Jerusalem headed for Jericho or "East Jerusalem". The distance between Jericho and those Arab settlements as the crow flies is less than 10 miles. But because of the winding STEEP decline into Jericho -- it COULD be something like an 18 mile drive. 

So if Jericho were to be say -- "an autonomous Palestinian City State", it could incorporate those settlements in E. Jerusalem easily..  And there would International access to Jerusalem as a whole, if the Palis took responsibility for the security of their portions. 

If you read that article I just posted, the 50 years WITHOUT Palestinians getting organized has CONTRIBUTED to the "settlement" issue. And to UNWIND that -- you have to recognize Palestinian expansion in the West Bank as WELL AS the Israeli expansions. It's not easy. But the last sentence in the article says that the majority of ISRAELIS now see "Palestinian autonomy" as a more LOCALIZED form of governance anyways. 

Because they are not comfortable with the governing power all perched ABOVE their heads. THey maintain their PREFERENCE for LOCAL governance and social organization. Doing ANYTHING on a western style NATIONAL scale would be like trying to unite the various 45 North American Indian Tribes under ONE council...


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> So now I am the topic?  Is that your discussion strategy here?




If you are free to use the themes and language you find at pro-terrorist sites, I should be free to point out where you are getting your views.

 if you had any sort of actual education on the subject, you would not be using all the jargon designed for useful idiots.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.
> ...



He has one. But it seems to be the same FAILED strategy of FORCING the Palis to form a Unity Government. And the embassy movement was an incentive to have them GET IT DONE.. 

That's not a lasting or wise strategy.. I asked you -- DO YOU have one?


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Mine was actually outlined in that thread I had posted..the idea of multiple city states with some agricultural area attached.  The rest would be absorbed into Israel as citizens or into the nations where the refugee camps are.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So how do you "get there"?  And why is allowing embassies into Jerusalem a major roadblock to that concept?


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Because the status of Jerusalem is supposed to be negotiated.  Trump’s actions gave it to Israel undivided, so it was off the table.  Putting embassies there supports that status.  Is there any reason part of Jerusalem could not have been part of a Palestinian entity?


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## Coyote (Oct 3, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > So now I am the topic?  Is that your discussion strategy here?
> ...


I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me?  Why not discuss solutions?  Whether aid can be more effectively used?


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## Indeependent (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You mean why is a Holy Site being used as a soccor field by Muslims?
Because to Muslims it’s whole purpose is an attack vantage point.
When any Jew gets access to Mecca and Medina...


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## Indeependent (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I believe you should try to find those who have some real insight into Arab leadership.
It’s elusive at best.
Just think that 1.2 billion Arab minds are being flushed down the toilet.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



He did not give Jerusalem "undivided" to Israel. I just explained the boundaries of E. Jerusalem to you above. Did not affect 85% or more of Palis "living in Jerusalem"...


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  Coyote, et al,

The type of government _(example: democracy)_ really does not have much to do about the view _(opposing views, singular views, unanomous concensus, and the disbute resolution process)_ and the correctness of any one particular view point.

The theory of "substance" suggests that if there is no opposing view to a political question, then the political question is much todo about nothing.  The implication is that *any Pro-Israeli political view* is questionable by *an opposition view*.  And each view has some alternative view to the question.

No country can ALWAYS make decisions that will be absolutely and universally accepted as correct ("right").  That would include the Israelis.

Israel is only often "more right" than the "Arab Palestians."  This is taken in small questions.



Coyote said:


> I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct?  This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.


*(COMMENT)*

In the real world, and in a political context, being "right" really means that one side is more correct than the opponent as viewed by the uninvolved observer.

If you are involved, you are biased.  _(The term "right" is a form of an "absolute" or state of "perfection."  The reality is that "right" and "wrong" is scalar—it comes in varying degrees.)  _The view is used to refer to an approach to politics.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Oct 3, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2018)

Actually, at the moment, Palestinians have no need for embassies or passports. That's a fact. If they DO in the future, I imagine they are welcome to have an Embassy Row in East Jerusalem on top of the hills. Great views, but it's hard to find a hectare of ground up there that is NOT a precious world archaeological treasure. So the opportunities are very limited for development of ANY kind in Jerusalem or along the Jericho road. 

In fact, from Galilee to the Dead Sea, A LOT of West Bank is holy ground. For Jews as well. 

Because Jesus being from Nazareth and being a rabbi that fished in Galilee was NOT just a "one of"..  There's your Jewish claim recorded right in the New Testament. Jesus walked that Jericho road more than 3 or 5 times. It in the NT.. 

So embassies in Jerusalem is NOT a deal breaker of any kind.


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2018)

et al,

*Hamas: "Rip out [the Jews'] hearts from their bodies ...*
See:  


Shusha said:


> Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.


*(COMMENT)*

The entire series is quite illuminating.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me?  Why not discuss solutions?  Whether aid can be more effectively used?




If you don't visit the sites, why do you mimic all their language and talking points with such complete fealty as you do?  Are  you coming up with this "collective punishment" crap completely on your own?

As far as aid, there should be none. Why do you wish to reward genocidal antisemites by sending them boatloads of cash?  You know it will only be applied to the killing of Jews as it always has.


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## Mindful (Oct 4, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me?  Why not discuss solutions?  Whether aid can be more effectively used?
> ...



A large bulk of UNWRA’s work takes place in Palestinian refugee camps outside of the Palestinian territories, including in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.  I ask myself why there are refugee camps in these countries. Why have  these people not been integrated into the various societies and given citizenship?

Following the European model, after WW2;  6 million displaced persons. What happened to them? There are no refugee camps in Europe, 2018.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?


There is nothing I would like to see more than an open, televised debate/negotiation/discussion between Israel and Palestine. Archived on places like Youtube, Vimeo, and Daailymotion. About six people on each side.

Who would you suggest for your side? Come on, I want to see your list.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me?  Why not discuss solutions?  Whether aid can be more effectively used?
> ...


Or you could give boatloads of cash to Israel so they can kill Palestinians.


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## Hollie (Oct 4, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?
> ...



You wouldn't want that at all. Let's see your islamic terrorist heroes from Hamas account for the billions of US welfare payments that have made them incredibly wealthy.


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## Mindful (Oct 4, 2018)

Might be worth looking at the history of aid to the Palestinians.


The total amount of money accumulated by the PLO from its inception has been estimated by several sources.  A 1990 CIA report estimated that the PLO had between $8 – 14B in assets.  [20]  

Two British National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS) reports, (1993 and 1994) estimated that “despite denials to the contrary, it is estimated that they [the PLO] have worldwide assets approaching $8-10 billion USD and an annual income of about $1.5-2 billion.” The report noted that the PLO was in fact the wealthiest of the world’s terrorist organizations.  [21]  The U.S. General Accounting Office performed an investigation into this matter in 1995, but its findings were kept secret, due to “national security reasons.” However, a source familiar with the investigation said that the report found that Arafat and the PLO indeed held “well over $10 billion is assets, even at a time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy.”  [22]

The assets the PLO held were an open secret. Yet, the PA was never asked to use the assets on behalf of the Palestinian people, and there was no demand to account for the whereabouts of these assets.

Where Does the Palestinian Aid Money Go?


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 4, 2018)

Israel goes around Abbas to help provide electricity to Gaza ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## Coyote (Oct 4, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

*Hamas offers to export Qassam rockets to any Arabs willing to shoot them at Israel*





Hamas official Fathi Hammad said that the terror group is s *ready to export Qassam rockets to Arab armies* in order "to fight the Zionist entity."

Hammad said that the rocket is comparable in quality to those produced by other international military rocket factories.

Exporting them might be a little difficult, since any exports would have to go through either Israel, through tunnels to Egypt or through the heavily-patrolled sea.  Egypt would not take kindly to any rockets being smuggled into the Sinai while the army battles the Islamic State there.


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## Coyote (Oct 4, 2018)

Jkhffu


rylah said:


> *Hamas offers to export Qassam rockets to any Arabs willing to shoot them at Israel*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that is why Hamas is consideted a terrorrist organization.


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## Shusha (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews.  While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people.

As you have pointed out several times on this thread, Gaza and the WB are very different, yes, should be handled differently.  

That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

Abbas has a doctorate in Holocaust denial, goes on TV blaming the Jews for Hitlers' actions.
Funded the Munich Olympic massacre.
His ambassador openly demands a Jew-free state.

Much different?


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The strategy is to pull Arab states into the picture for a regional agreement.
For that each player has to be given proportionate position, according to their real weight and potential for normalization, making the Palis last on the list for having nothing to offer, but patent disruption of any notion to normalization.

Or did You think it was all done without cooperation?


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## Coyote (Oct 4, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Thank you.



> That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.



Pretty heinious comments have been made all around.  Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's.  Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the  mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs.  Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt.  There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role.   Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.


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## Coyote (Oct 4, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




What is the Trump Administration doing towards that strategy and where is it articulated?

Trump has insulted and distanced from many key allies in his America First ideology - he thinks America can do it better alone.  Why would you expect THIS endeavor to be any different?  China is increasing it's global powerhouse, NK is laughing at us as Trump proclaims they are no longer a nuclear menace, and Russia?  Is being Russia.  Another unfettered wannabe power broker.  Why do you expect a different plan here?

P.S. I don't disagree with the strategy for pulling Arab states and Israel in a regional agreement - there is no other effective long turm solution.  But I'm not seeing that.


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## Coyote (Oct 4, 2018)

rylah said:


> Abbas has a doctorate in Holocaust denial, goes on TV blaming the Jews for Hitlers' actions.
> Funded the Munich Olympic massacre.
> His ambassador openly demands a Jew-free state.
> 
> Much different?




Yes much different.


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You do not seem to know the Nazi history of the Palestinians.
When the Muslims call the Israelis Nazis, they are not telling the truth.
When Israel calls the Palestinians Nazis, although there aren't that many who might do that, that comes not only from the Arab Palestinians history with Nazi Germany, but many of their actions and words which continue to be like those of the Nazis.

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You assume someone owes them something, what a rude awakening.
He merely withheld money from a dysfunctional govt that was not in anyway friendly to the US.


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## Coyote (Oct 4, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...




Many of the Jews in the actions that led to the founding of Israel were terrorists.  Does that make it accurate to call Israel a terrorist regime or to call Israeli Jews terrorists today?  No.

Comparing the Palestinians today to Nazi's is the same and serves no useful purporses.  You want to have your cake and eat it to - you can call the Palestinians Nazi's but don't you dare call the Israeli's similar serious insults.


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## Indeependent (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Can you name these Jewish terrorists from 60-70 years ago?
Most of the land was purchased from Arab nomads by Jews, especially the Rothschilds.


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



No, no ,no - keep me out of Your domestic issues.
Conflating the issue with China and Russia, or with Your projections of his personality won't help either.

You're way over the place, I was specific.


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Being called a terrorist, while defending themselves from barbarian Arabs, and uncaring English, is not the same as people from a religion, taught to hate you, and intent in never wanting you to have your own country on your own ancient homeland ARE two totally different issues.

You do not realize that the Arabs from 1920 on have been wanting to not only destroy Israel but kill, or subjugate all the Jews, just as they had them before......as second class citizens known as Dhimmis.

Your knowledge of history continues to be thin.

The Palestinians today are not Nazis.
They are a totally different group of terrorists, like the Nazis, who want to have power over land which does not belong to them, and over the indigenous people on those lands.

The ones who started with the Nazi comparison were the Arab Palestinians.

They will use any comparison against the Jews and Israel which will help make them look like the victims they are truly not.


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Abbas has a doctorate in Holocaust denial, goes on TV blaming the Jews for Hitlers' actions.
> ...



Bad cop worse cop, one is a Caliph other is a Socialist Nazi - same goals regarding me and my people.

Wanna try again?


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## Shusha (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Pretty heinious comments have been made all around.  Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's.  Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the  mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs.



Sure.  But here's the difference.  In Israel, that kind of rhetoric is near universally rejected and condemned.  Israelis see that sort of rhetoric for the evil that it is.  

In Palestine, that kind of rhetoric is supported and celebrated and leads to Arabs murdering Jews -- climbing into the bedroom windows of 13 year old girls and stabbing them; entering homes and murdering whole families; stabbing people in grocery stores and at falafel stands.  (Yes, I am aware of the two Israeli exceptions).


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## Shusha (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt.  There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role.   Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.



The rhetoric is the symptom of the problem, not the cause of it.  And yep, I've said it for at least a year now, there is a regional inter-Arab + Israel war coming.  The Palestinians are on the wrong side of the war and they are going to take the greater portion of the ugly.  

Personally, I am of the opinion that Israel (and Trump) is not opposed to war.  The mood is to get the status quo done with and move on to whatever permanent solution can be forced.  They won't start a war.  They won't encourage it even, but if it comes, the plans are in place.  They need a war to create a solution.  If that makes sense.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 4, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The Trump counseling session is down the hall to the FAR left. *You HAVE to distance yourself from some abusive people to form more productive relationships and deals. *

There was a LOT of dysfunctional foreign policy out there that was "kicking the can down the road" stuff that did HARM the US and some of it's allies.

Unfortunately, any unique REAL solutions to ending THIS stand-off from the  from the US under Trump are not happening. But -- he's encouraging the new acceptance of Israel in the Mid-East as a ally to many Arab Sunni states. And THAT will lead somewhere useful... Mutual aid and security in that region now CONSIDERS Israel to be a part of the plan..


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## flacaltenn (Oct 4, 2018)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



I found the treaties that were signed between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan to finally end hostilities of 30 years since 1948..  It's REALLY instructive, and some of that made it into the article I'm writing to SUPPORT the concept of a "Neighborhood design solution" to the Pali issue.  It's all there in BOTH of those agreements how "solving the Pali problem" required ALL the neighbors to focus and contribute.

From the article.

_ This is not a typical post-war armistice negotiation.  The Palestinians did not position armies on every border of Israel in 1968 and coordinate the attacks. That armistice between Egypt, Jordan and Israel was settled long ago. In the pact with Egypt that ended 30 years of hostilities, signed in 1978 and brokered by the US, the undeniable and necessary actuality of a neighborhood solution for the displacement of Palestinians was fully and very thoroughly articulated.  _




> A. West Bank and Gaza --- 1. Egypt, Israel, Jordan and the representatives of the Palestinian people should participate in negotiations on the resolution of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects. To achieve that objective, negotiations relating to the West Bank and Gaza should proceed in three stages:



_The agreement went on to state that “Egypt, Israel, and Jordan will agree on the modalities for establishing the elected self-governing authority in the West Bank and Gaza.”  The matching peace pact with Jordan, signed in 1998, formulates: “ In the case of displaced persons, [would be addressed] in a quadripartite committee together with Egypt and the Palestinians”. Refugees external to the occupied lands were to be addressed largely through International working groups. 
_
NOTHING NEW.. It's ALWAYS been recognized that Israel ALONE doesn't carry the burden of making every last Palestinian happy.. It's ALWAYS required a neighborhood solution. But all the summits and meetings and leaderships could NOT make that happen..

It would tear dear Coyote up if Trump and/or his son-in-law could make that happen..  

Way off topic --- so I'm out. The issue of aid is of little interest to me. The issue of MAKING DEALS that get butts off of  thrones and chairs to fix things does..


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I like the way You challenge the current stiffed lexicon that has preoccupied the public discourse for the last 2-3 decades. Enjoyed that post very much.

Breath of fresh air 
Thanks You!


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## Mindful (Oct 4, 2018)

The Branch takes you into the everyday lives of Jewish and Arab Israelis forging meaningful relationships — at work, in the theater, at school, at Hadassah’s hospitals, even at an ice cream shop. Presented by Hadassah and hosted by veteran journalist Dina Kraft, The Branch provides inspiration by lifting up positive stories of people offering branches of peace.


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## rylah (Oct 4, 2018)

Mindful said:


> The Branch takes you into the everyday lives of Jewish and Arab Israelis forging meaningful relationships — at work, in the theater, at school, at Hadassah’s hospitals, even at an ice cream shop. Presented by Hadassah and hosted by veteran journalist Dina Kraft, The Branch provides inspiration by lifting up positive stories of people offering branches of peace.



Very interesting timing, I was considering publicizing the unique friendship story between my family and the Aboulafias.
Thank You, I didn't know about this portal.


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## member (Oct 4, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...






 *"...Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews..."*








_anyway...._



 _"My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews.  While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people."_

I understand your country's concern about-terrorists and their "tendencies" towards the people there [jewish] and even not jewish....."_there" or not._

"Hamas official Fathi Hammad said that the terror group is s *ready to export Qassam rockets to Arab armies* in order "to fight the Zionist entity."  hammad said: etc...."




 hammad said.....we know what you like to say....

 man...it sure is diabolical and _stupid_....you go ahead and place that order for QR's..........nothing good will come of it - doesn't help in getting your state for the  

 theatre group people and festival goers....











... even street people know:  terrorists, hamas officials, mr. hammad...._and the rest._...






evil... hammad -- a scuzzface terrorist.  i'm supposed to take him seriously with the title of "official " placed before _"terrorist group"_?

too bad for the [palestinian] theatre group people and festival goers.....guess the dream of a state has to be squashed and put on hold [again].  too bad for the whole place....gaza, WB, ....  what do the "non-terrorist" palestinians say about this ?  *pf flickmore - have any  youtube "protest clips" of people [your friends...the palestinians] protesting their Gov't and their terroristic ways*?  don't they want a state or are they stupid too....shouldn't this hammad be picked up & arrested at this point ?

_LoL....._




 good luck (to all) !


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## Coyote (Oct 5, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



I don't kiss Trump's butt nor do I see a coherent foreign policy strategy at play here.


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## Indeependent (Oct 5, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Link to the last time you found a strategy you approved of that didn’t include another country taking US dollars and not giving anything in return.


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## Coyote (Oct 5, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



Bullshit.  Bombing open market places and civilian bus's is terrorism plain and simple.  You're trying to make distinctions that aren't there.  Which is why I say Israel can do no wrong - you just find a way to justify it and white wash the less savory elements of your own history.

As far as the Nazi comparison from Netanyahu?  It was highly inappropriate, and even many Jews were angered over it.  But you will support it and justify it won't you?


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## Coyote (Oct 5, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Link to a coherent foreign policy strategy here.


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## Indeependent (Oct 5, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


There cannot be a coherent policy in an area of the world where 21 nations are at war.
Due to lack of media coverage most people are unaware that Muslims are slaughtering each other.


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## Coyote (Oct 5, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



There certainly can be.  It's foolish to take actions with out some sort of long term strategy.  I get that you hate Muslims.


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## Indeependent (Oct 5, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Only the 1/3 who support Jihad.
Most of the Muslims my son is friends with love America and are pretty nice people.
I can’t control the fact that they murder each other.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 5, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Not gonna find it with regards to US Middle East policy. Not in our lifetimes. EVER...


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 5, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Yes, 1600 Jews were angered by it.  The 16 million who know real history, however, weren't.

Al Husseini collaborated directly with the Nazis, and his nephew just happens to be a fellow who changed his name to Arafat.

I realize that you know extremely little and all you do is repeat all the talking points and language you find at Islamist sites, but are you actually trying to deny that?


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## Coyote (Oct 5, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Link to that 16 million?  Or did you pull it out of your ass?  Many were angered, particularly at the  misuse of the Holocaust for political purposes.  That is what it is.  A lot of people collaborated with the Nazi's to serve their own nationalist goals.  To equate the Palestinians with Hitler's actions is false moral equivalency (maybe your "Standford" education missed that bit).  The Palestinians did not kill 2/3 of Europe's Jews.


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## Indeependent (Oct 5, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


When’s the last time you lost sleep over Egypt barricading Gaza?
When’s the last time you lost sleep over Syria taking over Lebanon and displacing millions of Lebanese?
When’s the last time you lost sleep over Jordan asking Israel to keep Palis out of Jordan?
Are you even aware that these are just a few of the problems plaguing the Arab world?

And I’d like to know why you clicked a Smiley concerning the Rothschilds purchasing tons of land from Arabs.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 5, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I always thought of Trump as a loose cannon. (Even before the election.) He just *does* without any detectable thought process.

The "deal of the century" is just another flop in the works.


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## AyeCantSeeYou (Oct 6, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > So now I am the topic?  Is that your discussion strategy here?
> ...



*Discuss the subject or stay out of the thread. Do not disrupt threads to talk about member here, regardless as to what your opinion of someone is, unless you are posting in the Flame Zone, Badlands, or The Rubber Room. Understand?*


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## RoccoR (Oct 6, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  et al,

IF the US were to decide to "reshape" the aid package to Arab Palestine, it has to be compatible and coordinated with the Arab Palestinians "transformation" away from the lawless and violent people they are and the corrupt people they support. 



P F Tinmore said:


> I always thought of Trump as a loose cannon. (Even before the election.) He just *does* without any detectable thought process.
> 
> The "deal of the century" is just another flop in the works.


*(COMMENT)*

The Arab Palestinians are caught in an endless inward swirl of generationally transferred hatred.  In order for any real success → the culture must eradicate its intense emotional need for conflict with the Israelis.   The Arab Palestinians must make a High-G turn away from their "dependency" on the socially driven objective to neutralization of the Jews (Zionist or whatever) → 180º from the abhorrence of the Jews and focus that energy towards the development in a multinational effort in nation-building. 

But that is not happening anytime soon.  No one trusts anyone else.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Oct 6, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  et al,
> 
> IF the US were to decide to "reshape" the aid package to Arab Palestine, it has to be compatible and coordinated with the Arab Palestinians "transformation" away from the lawless and violent people they are and the corrupt people they support.
> ...




Agree.  The question then is whether continued aide supports this transformation or detracts from it.


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## Coyote (Oct 6, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  et al,
> 
> IF the US were to decide to "reshape" the aid package to Arab Palestine, it has to be compatible and coordinated with the Arab Palestinians "transformation" away from the lawless and violent people they are and the corrupt people they support.
> ...


And the programs that foster such trust are included in the cuts, which is why I think aid should be cut strategically not petulantly.


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## RoccoR (Oct 6, 2018)

RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→  et al,

The US needs to discontinue any and all USAID and Security Assistance packages with the Arab Palestinians and any donation supporting NGOs and UN Activities that operate within the territories.



Shusha said:


> Agree.  The question then is whether continued aide supports this transformation or detracts from it.


*(COMMENT)*

This is a backaway strategy until a clear path and plan can be devised with some reasonable expectation of successful.  IF the US continues on the current course of support to the Arab Palestinians, we are just throwing more money after bad.  We might as well just burn here.  We should step back from the Arab Palestinians, and all those that support the Arab Palestinians, and wait for it to implode.   It is what they want.  They are of that mindset.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Oct 6, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→  et al,
> 
> The US needs to discontinue any and all USAID and Security Assistance packages with the Arab Palestinians and any donation supporting NGOs and UN Activities that operate within the territories.
> ...



How do you know that is what they want?  We should not support NGOs even?   Your plan would create yet another humanitarian crisis in an area already rife with such, and make the area ripe for far more extreme terrorist groups to gain a foothold.


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## Indeependent (Oct 6, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Most of the land was purchased.
And let’s be honest, you laugh at a lot of others posts.


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 6, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The US regards the aid to the PA and Gaza as helping terrorists who are usually gleeful every time they kill a Jew, or think they have killed one.

What aid should be given by the US to people like that?

And let us not forget that the population does not suffer from any taking away of US aid, it suffers from the endless corruption being inflicted on them by their leaders who are nothing but very fat cows.


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## Indeependent (Oct 6, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The problem lies in the fact that FlaCalTenn has already stated quite eloquently...your ignorance of history and current events in the subject is stunningly obvious.
You can’t solve a problem that no nation in the region cares about, especially when they’re all at war with each other.


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## Coyote (Oct 6, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
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> > Indeependent said:
> ...


So...no long term strategy at play here and you are stating there is no need for such?


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## Indeependent (Oct 6, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
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> > Coyote said:
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Let's look at the overall context...
I already asked you questions in a comprehensive post about the entire regions apathy/hostility towards each other.
You didn't respond to the post.

Are you expecting the US to strong arm 21 nations plus Israel?
Prove you're not allowing your emotions to control your attitude by answering that question and the ones already posted.


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## Coyote (Oct 6, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Indeependent said:
> ...


 
I am not required to answer your every question particularly when it is typically a one way street with my remaining unanswered.  Show me there is a coherent strategy at play.


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## Indeependent (Oct 6, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I am not required to show you there is a coherent strategy at play until you can prove there's a context for one.
I will have to assume that you want the US to either bribe or militarily enforce your will upon the entire globe.
Feel free to send a check.

I think I will follow flacaltenn and bow out of this pointless "discussion".


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 6, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Show me there is a coherent strategy at play.




The coherent strategy is to stop rewarding genocidal antisemitism.

 Why should these Arabs ever change their bloodthirsty behavior when it has proven as lucrative as it has?


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## Indeependent (Oct 6, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Show me there is a coherent strategy at play.
> ...


Not good enough.
We must reward Arabs regardless of their behavior.


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## RoccoR (Oct 6, 2018)

RE:  Off Topic x On Topic
Coyote, et al,

I use the laugh ping a bit differently.  In my case I see it neighteras good nor bad.  At least people know I saw it and gave it some appreciation.



Coyote said:


> But to get back on topic, is there any evidence of an American foreign policy strategy in the total cessation of aid?


*(RESPONSE)*

No.  In my opinion there is now.  Maybe some cuts but no real indication it is a threat with teeth.

Just My Thought,
R


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## Shusha (Oct 6, 2018)

Of course there is a strategy at play here. It's not an especially pleasant one for the Arab Palestinians. But the hope is to move them out of the status quo comfort zone into actually governing its citizens.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 6, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Of course there is a strategy at play here. It's not an especially pleasant one for the Arab Palestinians. But the hope is to move them out of the status quo comfort zone into actually governing its citizens.




 Their single biggest industry is propaganda, and while that propaganda brings in the most money for them, it is not sustainable as far as an economy is concerned.

 Who knows -- if they stopped trying to kill Jews while pouring so much of their resources into their massive propaganda efforts, and started building an actual country, instead, who knows -- they might actually get one.


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## Coyote (Oct 6, 2018)

There is a lot of anti-Palestinian propaganda at work as well.  For example, why do Palestinian successes receive so little attention?  Unlike the Israeli’s, Palestinian farmers face far more obstacles to success and it is not just from their own government as some would have you believe.

Small farmers struggle worldwide, but Palestinian farmers really have it rough
_JALUD, West Bank — Palestinian farmer Fawzi Ibrahim is proud of his heirloom corn, whose kernels ripen in iridescent shades of red, blue and gold like jewels. 

But what makes it priceless are the obstacles he faces to grow his crops.

Small farmers struggle worldwide. But international experts say *Palestinian farmers face disabling odds in the 60 percent of the West Bank* that is under full Israeli control and is home to some 400,000 Jewish settlers.

As settler agricultural start-ups get prioritized access to water, export markets and development rights, the Israeli occupation is roiling the centuries-old pastoral life of Palestinian farmers, experts say, adding fuel to a conflict in which land is a trigger._
_
For years, Israeli settlers have chased Ibrahim’s tractor, threatened him, yelled at his Israeli soldier escorts, tried to burn his fields and warned that letting him farm would risk bloodshed, according to the Israeli group Rabbis for Human Rights.

*....A recent U.N. report said the Israeli occupation has set off a “continuous process of de-agriculturization” in the Israeli-controlled West Bank, depriving the Palestinian economy of potential agriculture revenue of $700 million, by World Bank estimates, as Israeli settlers bar Palestinians from crops, grazing lands and springs.*

The World Food Program is providing food assistance to 75,000 Palestinians in Area C, according to local spokesman Raphael du Boispean.

A December report by the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem said Israeli settlements have overtaken a half-million acres of former Palestinian lands in Israel-controlled Area C, which was placed under full Israeli control in 1990s accords. B’Tselem said 200,000 to 300,000 Palestinians live in Area C.


“What the Israeli settlers are doing in those areas is a disaster,” said Avshalom Vilan, executive director of Israel’s powerful Farmers Federation, a mainstream private farmers group. “They’re stealing from the lives of their Palestinian neighbors, and making their lives impossible._​
If they were able to farm, maybe they would not need as much aid.


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## Sixties Fan (Oct 6, 2018)

*Let PCFF do whatever they feel needs to be done.* But it’s absurd for them to argue that they are _entitled_ to US government funding. If their work produces an acceptable return on investment, however that’s defined, funders will seek them out. The broader issue though is about how large bodies, often controlled by governments, use sometimes-vast aid funds to influence and even change the political landscape in other countries.

Jerusalem-based *NGO Monitor* is mentioned in Jeffay’s article. I play a tiny committee-member’s role there that gives me some insight into the distortions and the double standards that are often part of the funding industry. A notorious illustration: the Abbas regime’s rewards-for-terror stipends scheme has produced a devastating harvest of deaths and blighted lives on both sides since Arafat’s time.The PA has for all practical purposes been insolvent through all those years. Those stipends and that hideous scheme are made possible only by foreign funding. Let it be critically reviewed widely, often, transparently and with vigour.

(full article online)

This Ongoing War: A Blog: 04-Oct-18: Entitlement, transparency and foreign aid: Responding to Parents Circle


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## Shusha (Oct 6, 2018)

Coyote said:


> There is a lot of anti-Palestinian propaganda at work as well.  For example, why do Palestinian successes receive so little attention?  Unlike the Israeli’s, Palestinian farmers face far more obstacles to success and it is not just from their own government as some would have you believe.
> 
> Small farmers struggle worldwide, but Palestinian farmers really have it rough
> _JALUD, West Bank — Palestinian farmer Fawzi Ibrahim is proud of his heirloom corn, whose kernels ripen in iridescent shades of red, blue and gold like jewels.
> ...




But this is an(other) example of double standards being applied to Israel.  The objective question is whether or not it is incumbent upon a State to maintain a subsistence level agriculture for its citizens.

This has NOTHING to do with "settlers" or the conflict.  But people make it about those things in order to unfairly demonize Israel.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 6, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> If this is to be an Islamist site where people are not free to oppose Islamist based terrorism, would you please at least have the decency to state this right up front?
> 
> People who oppose terrorism against Jews are getting threatened in this thread, the management of this site is mocking their points of view by laughing at them and it as heavy handed as all get up.



*Normally, This would deleted and a warning issued for discussing a moderation directive in thread. The rules CLEARLY state...  Do NOT REPLY, Do not Discuss. NOT BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE DISCUSSED, but because in the middle of topical threads is no place to toss a fit and get an audience. 

There NEVER been any prohibition at ALL on USMB about "opposing Islamic terrorism".. NEVER A SINGLE WARNING issued for taking that opinion and stance in the PROPER thread. But that's not what's going on here. 

When you target USMB members and make allegations against them PERSONALLY --- that's flaming. And on its own, without relevance to specific title/OP, its taunting and illegal post content. If it becomes a personal exchange, it will be deleted and warned. 

Take the shots bearing on the specific TOPIC -- and it's legal. It's that simple. If you have a vendetta or grudge that needs to be aired -- use the Taunting Forums. 
*
*If you have moderation gripes, contact any Staff member and include myself and AyeCantSeeYou in the PM. *

*Don't reply to this message. Open a PM..  Bring a friend, a lawyer, whomever you like. Just make sure it's not about your personal dislike or animosity for a member of Staff without concrete evidence that their actions are "harassing members".. *


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## Coyote (Oct 7, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > There is a lot of anti-Palestinian propaganda at work as well.  For example, why do Palestinian successes receive so little attention?  Unlike the Israeli’s, Palestinian farmers face far more obstacles to success and it is not just from their own government as some would have you believe.
> ...



How is it double standards?  The state, as you put it, encourages and subsidizes settler agriculture and puts substantial obstacles in way of Palestinian farmers.  Where is the double standard exactly?  It is here.

They mention heirloom corn.  There is a potential market in heirloom varieties that could be exploited.


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## Coyote (Oct 7, 2018)

Here is another one...why is this ignored in the groundswell of anti Palestinian propaganda depicting Palestinians as worthless aid leeches?

https ://www.technologyreview.com/s/429474/a-palestinian-startup-success-story/
Souktel’s success reflects a rising entrepreneurial groundswell in the Palestinian tech sector that has seen its contribution to the economy leap *from less than 1 percent of Palestinian GDP in 2008 to around 8 percent last year. I*n September, Sadara Ventures, the first early-stage IT VC partnership established in Palestine, announced the inaugural allocation from its $30 million fund, a $1 million investment in the travel startup Yamsafer.

Media Item | Souktel Digital Solutions


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## Coyote (Oct 7, 2018)

An example of programs where Aid has been successful.   And also largely ignored.

Not business as usual: Developing Palestinian exports

Mahdi Hassan is proud of the challenges he overcame to gradually become one of the biggest exporters of Palestinian date palm. “Medjool date, grown in Jericho, is renowned for its taste,” says Mahdi, general manager of Emirates Delight. “We exported nearly 700 tonnes last year”, 10 times more than when the company started in 2008.

“But it is not just about profits,” he says. “It is how we ensure farmers also benefit from our exports to new markets.” The increased export of Palestinian dates by Mahdi’s company means that the small farmers he relies on can sell more of their production to meet international demand. With increased demand comes increased prices.

“We now buy our dates at twice the price of a few years ago, for a product that local farmers could not sell before,” Mahdi says. “We see it as our social commitment to the Jericho small farmers to share our opportunities and help their income.”

*Highlights*

Membership to PalTrade increased from 164 to 229 small and medium enterprises, all exporters or with potential to export.
80 companies received expert business advice and recommendations to support their export activities; 10 of these companies are managed by women.
19 certified trade advisors, including 6 women, the only such certified advisors in the region.
In 2014 PalTrade activities directly contributed to US$45 million in Palestinian exports.


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## Coyote (Oct 7, 2018)

And more...this is quite interesting, assessing the business climate, government issues and this effect on business.  It is actually a very thorough report and challenges some of the assumptions held and promoted by both sides.  It illustrates the complexities involved in creating a business friendly environment, steps that have been taken to improve conditions, especially corruption, as well as steps that have hindered it.

https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/229307.pdf


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## Coyote (Oct 7, 2018)

An example of the successful use of aid (and programs like these are what are being cut).

Israelis and Palestinians Launch Cross-border Businesses | Near East Foundation

Prior to the Second Intifada, regular economic cooperation, cross-border employment opportunities, and a network of social relations existed between Palestinians and Israelis. When the construction of the separation barrier began in 2000, mobility along with social and economic interactions became severely limited, resulting in a generation of Palestinian and Israeli youth who have never known people from the “other side.”

Adi grew up in northern Israel where she had little to no interaction with Palestinians in the West Bank. When she heard about the Near East Foundation’s Youth Agribusiness Partnership (YAP) initiative, Adi jumped at the opportunity to get involved.

The YAP initiative, funded by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and implemented by the Near East Foundation (NEF) and its partners—the Peres Center for Peace and the Palestinian Center for Agricultural Research and Development (PCARD), aims to build lasting relationships of trust and collaboration between Israelis and Palestinians through cross-border economic collaboration. This initiative builds on NEF’s past successes implementing similar projects in the region, but with a unique twist in that it specifically targets young Palestinian and Israeli women and men—whose interaction with the “other side” has been severely limited.


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## RoccoR (Oct 7, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

I accept that USAID Projects are generally successful, from the view of the local economic conditions.  I even acknowledge that organizations like the Palestinian Center for Agricultural Research and Development (PCARD) are not only beneficial, but also examples of the business concerns that have been relatively clean of corruption.

I also believe that the American based Near East Foundation (NEF) has made many contributions that have had very positive effects that have gone unappreciated by many Westerners.  NEF has had some remarkable results working with foreign governments and local organizations.   And often NEF has demonstrated that a positive impact at a relatively low cost in turn-key microenterprise has proven very effective.  



Coyote said:


> An example of the successful use of aid (and programs like these are what are being cut).
> 
> Israelis and Palestinians Launch Cross-border Businesses | Near East Foundation slowdown in economic growth to reach around 3% in 2017, down from 3.3% in 2016. → →...


*(COMMENT)*

OK, let us discuss some recent findings.  And OK so this year we've seen _(within the Palestinian Governates)_ a small downturn in the economy which had expanded by about 4% in 2016, but with the 2017 economy reflecting med-term growth is projected at ≈ 3.5% _(not quite what they wanted, but not bad given the turmoil)_.   The decline in economic growth leveled-off around 3% in 2017, down from 3.3% in 2016 _(despite the complaints about Israeli interference)_.  So, I concede the modest loss.

BUT, having said all that, I would like to address a couple of points that periodically crop-up in these types of conversations.




 ​Please notice that the Inflation Rate hovered between +1% → -1%.  The swift jagged point was Operation Cast Lead.  The lower graph shows that there is not much difference between Production costs and the wholesale price _(modest Mark-up)_. 

This chart set is almost self-explanatory...



 ​
This tells me that the complaint that the Israelis are withholding Licenses is a bit exaggerated.  Yes, there seems to be a decline, but that just tracks with the rhetoric and threats of war.


Hamas leader in Gaza Yahya Sinwar: ‘I don’t want any more wars’ — 4 OCT 2018
Is Hamas sending a message to Israel it's ready for war? — 4 OCT 2018
*(BTW)*

The use of threats against the sovereignty of another state is prohibited. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> I accept that USAID Projects are generally successful, from the view of the local economic conditions.  I even acknowledge that organizations like the Palestinian Center for Agricultural Research and Development (PCARD) are not only beneficial, but also examples of the business concerns that have been relatively clean of corruption.
> ...


What do they mean by licensed area?


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## RoccoR (Oct 8, 2018)

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

I believe that "Licensed Area" is the parent term that includes several variations on a theme.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > What do they mean by licensed area?
> ...


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 8, 2018)

Coyote said:


> And more...this is quite interesting, assessing the business climate, government issues and this effect on business.  It is actually a very thorough report and challenges some of the assumptions held and promoted by both sides.  It illustrates the complexities involved in creating a business friendly environment, steps that have been taken to improve conditions, especially corruption, as well as steps that have hindered it.
> 
> https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/229307.pdf


Salem Fayyed is a former IMF Rep and a darling of the west. What has been called Fayyadism are neoliberal economic policies imposed on Palestine. He has never been the legal PM of Palestine.

Your linked article is by the US government who also favors neoliberal policies so it has to be take with a grain of salt.


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