# But....New Zealand banned guns...and felt morally superior....now their hospitals are filled with gun shot victims? Say What?



## 2aguy (Dec 24, 2021)

When you outlaw guns, Kiwi outlaws will have guns.....

How is gun violence surging in New Zealand when they banned guns in an attempt to feel morally superior?

Where is that kiwi poster here on U.S.messageboard...care to explain how this is happening?

*A worsening turf war between rival gangs and the criminal trade of illicit drugs has seen hundreds of shooting victims hospitalised across Auckland as the number of firearms in circulation grows.*
*
The city's mayor says the rising tally of gun violence victims is a serious concern, with the bloodshed causing significant anxiety and undermining people's right to feel safe.

Figures released exclusively to the Herald by Auckland's three district health boards show the city's hospitals have treated nearly 350 patients for firearms injuries since January 2016.
*
*Half of the victims were from Counties Manukau, with Middlemore Hospital patching up 171 patients. Thirteen children who'd been shot were cared for at Starship hospital.
---*
*An innocent family was forced to flee their Māngere East home last month after they miraculously dodged more than 20 bullets fired at the property during a terrifying night-time shooting.*
*
The house was left riddled with bullet holes. The incident is believed to be a case of mistaken identity.
*
*Father of two Robert James Hart was shot and killed in broad daylight on a Great North Rd driveway last month, just metres from staff cleaning a neighbouring New Lynn motel. Four people have been charged with his murder.*









						Hundreds of shooting victims treated at Auckland's hospitals amid surging gun violence
					

"What do we do here because our families are being caught in the middle."




					www.nzherald.co.nz


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## daveman (Dec 24, 2021)

Gunshot wounds?  Impossible.  This is obviously a new COVID variant.


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## rightwinger (Dec 24, 2021)

2aguy said:


> city's hospitals have treated nearly 350 patients for firearms injuries since January 2016.


350 in SIX YEARS?

Shows gun control is working
We get that on a weekend


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## Colin norris (Dec 24, 2021)

2aguy said:


> When you outlaw guns, Kiwi outlaws will have guns.....
> 
> How is gun violence surging in New Zealand when they banned guns in an attempt to feel morally superior?
> 
> ...


 It's ok by me and should be promoted to shoot amongst themselves.


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 350 in SIX YEARS?
> 
> Shows gun control is working
> We get that on a weekend


If gun control was working, that number would be zero. All this shows is in the minds of criminals the value of a gun now exceeds their fear of punishment.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> If gun control was working, that number would be zero. All this shows is in the minds of criminals the value of a gun now exceeds their fear of punishment.



Yea and if seat belts really worked, nobody would die in car crashes


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Yea and if seat belts really worked, nobody would die in car crashes


Physics is what causes death in car crashes, not policy.


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## Smokin' OP (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> Physics is what causes death in car crashes, not policy.


So, policy dictates gun deaths, not 'physics'?


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

Smokin' OP said:


> So, policy dictates gun deaths, not 'physics'?


Banning guns is policy, not physics. Clearly the policy had failed.


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## Turtlesoup (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 350 in SIX YEARS?
> 
> Shows gun control is working
> We get that on a weekend


We are a hell of a lot bigger...


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## Smokin' OP (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> Banning guns is policy, not physics. Clearly the policy had failed.


WOW. 
Never stated that.
GUN DEATHS are physics just as are CAR CRASHES/DEATHS.
A seatbelt policy has resulted in less DEATH in vehicle crashes.


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

Smokin' OP said:


> WOW.
> Never stated that.
> GUN DEATHS are physics just as are CAR CRASHES/DEATHS.
> A seatbelt policy has resulted in less DEATH in vehicle crashes.


Thousands of pounds of metal crashing into each other at high rates of speed cannot be achieved safely, no matter the policy. Airbags save more lives than seatbelts, so your argument is pretty weak from the start.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

Turtlesoup said:


> We are a hell of a lot bigger...



Lets see …

US gun homicides per 100,000……4.46
New Zealand gun homicides per 100,000……0.11

I will take NZ gun control



			Gun Deaths by Country 2023


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## Smokin' OP (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> Thousands of pounds of metal crashing into each other at high rates of speed cannot be achieved safely, no matter the policy. Airbags save more lives than seatbelts, so your argument is pretty weak from the start.


Must be pretty young.
The resistance to seat belt laws was a long one.
Airbags same thing.

Physics *STILL *overcome the policy but the policy saved lives had it not been enacted.


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## Silent Warrior (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We get that on a weekend


Yeah, in Chicago with all the tight gun control they have.  Way to prove the poster's point.  LOL


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## 2aguy (Dec 25, 2021)

Smokin' OP said:


> So, policy dictates gun deaths, not 'physics'?




Most of them....when the democrat party attacks the police to the point of handicapping them, then continues to release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....those poicies create the gun murder rate....the gun murder rate is not increased by normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense...


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## 2aguy (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Lets see …
> 
> US gun homicides per 100,000……4.46
> New Zealand gun homicides per 100,000……0.11
> ...




New Zealand is a tiny island, with a tiny population,  with a homogenous population........and they still have criminals getting guns easily.......they have complete isolation from sources of guns, and they have criminals shooting each other whenever they want to shoot each other...

Gun control does not work.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> New Zealand is a tiny island, with a tiny population,  with a homogenous population........and they still have criminals getting guns easily.......they have complete isolation from sources of guns, and they have criminals shooting each other whenever they want to shoot each other...
> 
> Gun control does not work.


0.11 gun homicides per 100,000 vs 4.46 in the US

Shows that in spite of your celebrating an occasional gun death in New Zealand, their gun bans are very effective


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## 2aguy (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 0.11 gun homicides per 100,000 vs 4.46 in the US
> 
> Shows that in spite of your celebrating an occasional gun death in New Zealand, their gun bans are very effective




Sell that to biden voters........

Tiny island, small number of people......and still criminals get guns....


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Sell that to biden voters........
> 
> Tiny island, small number of people......and still criminals get guns....



I will take their murder rate over ours even if an occasional gun gets through
Their gun ban is WORKING

Our murder rate is 44 times that of New Zealand


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## daveman (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Lets see …
> 
> US gun homicides per 100,000……4.46
> New Zealand gun homicides per 100,000……0.11
> ...


Then move there and stop your whining.


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## daveman (Dec 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Most of them....when the democrat party attacks the police to the point of handicapping them, then continues to release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....those poicies create the gun murder rate....the gun murder rate is not increased by normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense...


And that's their plan -- create enough gun violence so that more and more people demand the government do something about guns.

The end goal is confiscation.  Always has been.


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## daveman (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> I will take their murder rate over ours even if an occasional gun gets through
> Their gun ban is WORKING
> 
> Our murder rate is 44 times that of New Zealand


You ain't moved yet?

Shall I start a GoFundMe to pay your way?


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Lets see …
> 
> US gun homicides per 100,000……4.46
> New Zealand gun homicides per 100,000……0.11
> ...


It is simply dishonest to compare the US to NZ. The disparity in population is too great.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> It is simply dishonest to compare the US to NZ. The disparity in population is too great.


Didnt see you bring that up on the OP, so it must be a fair comparison


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Didnt see you bring that up on the OP, so it must be a fair comparison


That doesn't even make sense. The comparison is invalid regardless of when it is brought up.


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> When you outlaw guns, Kiwi outlaws will have guns.....
> 
> How is gun violence surging in New Zealand when they banned guns in an attempt to feel morally superior?
> 
> ...


New Zealand didn't ban guns, they restricted certain types, you fuckwit.

Oh, and Merry Christmas.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

New Zealand cares about keeping their citizens safe

The US does not give a fuk


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> New Zealand cares about keeping their citizens safe
> 
> The US does not give a fuk


In the US we are free to keep ourselves safe. In New Zealand the people get to pray someone will save them.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> In the US we are free to keep ourselves safe. In New Zealand the people get to pray someone will save them.



In the US we allow free access for mass murderers, killers, gang members to the weapons of their choice 

NZ protects its citizens


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## Coyote (Dec 25, 2021)

New Zealand vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats
					

Rape rate, Crime levels, Intentional homicide rate, Murder rate per million people, Murder rate and 91 More Interesting Facts and Stats



					www.nationmaster.com
				





New Zealand: 2.53
US: 32.57


Sounds like New Zealand is doing something right.  What is the OP whining about?


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> In the US we allow free access for mass murderers, killers, gang members to the weapons of their choice
> 
> NZ protects its citizens


NZ owns it's citizens. 

Our criminals will always access to guns, they don't care about laws. Unlike any other country, there is simply too much money in crime here. Even so that is a mere fraction of the money that flows through the nation.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> NZ owns it's citizens.
> 
> Our criminals will always access to guns, they don't care about laws. Unlike any other country, there is simply too much money in crime here. Even so that is a mere fraction of the money that flows through the nation.


We have access to over 300 million guns
No other Country in the world has that open an access to firepower


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## daveman (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> In the US we allow free access for mass murderers, killers, gang members to the weapons of their choice
> 
> NZ protects its citizens


Can you point out which of the hundreds of gun laws in the United States have a caveat exempting mass murderers, killers, and gang members?

Hint:  The number is less than one.


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## daveman (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We have access to over 300 million guns
> No other Country in the world has that open an access to firepower


And yesterday, 99.999%+ of legal gun members committed no crimes with their guns.

All gun control does is disarm the law-abiding.

Which is, of course, the goal.


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We have access to over 300 million guns
> No other Country in the world has that open an access to firepower



300 million guns and how many murders? Guns aren't the problem, murderous dirtbags are.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> 300 million guns and how many murders? Guns aren't the problem, murderous dirtbags are.



The US Gun Culture encourages murder

No other modern democracy has to endure such a murder rate
But they don’t encourage access to guns


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## daveman (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> The US Gun Culture encourages murder
> 
> No other modern democracy has to endure such a murder rate
> But they don’t encourage access to guns


Gun culture encourages self-defense against people who would do harm.

But naturally, you're sympathetic to criminals.


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## Rogue AI (Dec 25, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> The US Gun Culture encourages murder
> 
> No other modern democracy has to endure such a murder rate
> But they don’t encourage access to guns


No it doesn't, law abiding gun owners out number criminals by millions. Such silly assertions just make you look foolish.


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## rightwinger (Dec 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> No it doesn't, law abiding gun owners out number criminals by millions. Such silly assertions just make you look foolish.



Yet gun ownership is not making us safer

We have the largest Prison population in the world yet still have one of the highest gun murder rates

It is not working

Other modern Democracies have strict gun rules and low Prison populations


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## Smokin' OP (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Most of them....when the democrat party attacks the police to the point of handicapping them, then continues to release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....those poicies create the gun murder rate....the gun murder rate is not increased by normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense...


So, the Texas model is the way to go?


There were 3,683 gun-related deaths in Texas in 2019.
In 2018, 64% of all Texas suicides were by firearm. 
In 2018, nearly 73% of veteran suicides in Texas were by firearm according to the Department of Veterans Affairs.
In 2018, 174 women in Texas were killed by a male intimate partner—59% of those murders were by firearm.
Women in Texas are 24% more likely to be murdered with a gun than women in other states.
In 2019, at least 32 Texan children ages 0-17 died in unintentional shootings.

In California, 2,945 people were killed by guns in 2019, or 7.5 for every 100,000 people, the seventh lowest firearm fatality rate among states. Of all deaths from gun violence in the state that year, 1,586 were classified as suicides and 1,246 as homicides.


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

daveman said:


> And yesterday, 99.999%+ of legal gun members committed no crimes with their guns.
> 
> All gun control does is disarm the law-abiding.
> 
> Which is, of course, the goal.


You have it back to front, the law abiding population tends to be the ones that seek and obtain a gun certificate if they wish too. The ones with a tarnished character would be denied one. That's the whole purpose.

In America, it's called background checks, it's just that some countries do them more thorough whilst knowing which guns are not suitable for home use.


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Does requiring a car driving licence stop you from owning a car and driving it on the road? No, because, you pass a test, buy a car, it comes with a log book (registration papers) and you drive on the road according to some rules. In the UK, each year, the car has an MOT to make sure it's road worthy. Does this stop criminals using a car? No. Do they have access to one if needed? Yes.

Do car nuts protest that it's against their rights to own a car with such regulation? Do these regulations stop accidents and deaths? Nope, but it reduces them, hence why we all have them.

Gun nuts and guns - GET OFF MY GUNS.

So you regulate cars (no one is banning cars) and everyone is fine. Mention gun regulation to 
a gun nut American - GET OFF MY GUNS IT'S MY GOD GIVEN FUCKING RIGHTS

But hey, I can't fix stoopid.


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## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

daveman said:


> Gun culture encourages self-defense against people who would do harm.
> 
> But naturally, you're sympathetic to criminals.


Gun culture prevents the safe handling and responsible use of firearms.


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## Rogue AI (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Does requiring a car driving licence stop you from owning a car and driving it on the road? No, because, you pass a test, buy a car, it comes with a log book (registration papers) and you drive on the road according to some rules. In the UK, each year, the car has an MOT to make sure it's road worthy. Does this stop criminals using a car? No. Do they have access to one if needed? Yes.
> 
> Do car nuts protest that it's against their rights to own a car with such regulation? Do these regulations stop accidents and deaths? Nope, but it reduces them, hence why we all have them.
> 
> ...


Gun ownership is a right, car ownership is a privilege. Stupid foreigners spouting off about things they don't comprehend is pathetic.


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## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Does requiring a car driving licence stop you from owning a car and driving it on the road? No, because, you pass a test, buy a car, it comes with a log book (registration papers) and you drive on the road according to some rules. In the UK, each year, the car has an MOT to make sure it's road worthy. Does this stop criminals using a car? No. Do they have access to one if needed? Yes.
> 
> Do car nuts protest that it's against their rights to own a car with such regulation? Do these regulations stop accidents and deaths? Nope, but it reduces them, hence why we all have them.
> 
> ...


I think that in order to own a firearm you need to pass a test in basic gun safety, ethics,, and responsible handling, applicable laws, and show you can hit what you aim at.


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## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> Gun ownership is a right, car ownership is a privilege. Stupid foreigners spouting off about things they don't comprehend is pathetic.


Rights carry responsibility and this is the only right that involves a tool who's sole purpose is to kill.


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> Gun ownership is a right, car ownership is a privilege. Stupid foreigners spouting off about things they don't comprehend is pathetic.


Hence why it's in capitals. But I can't fix stoopid.


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## Rogue AI (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Hence why it's in capitals. But I can't fix stoopid.


You should start with self-reflection.  There is hope yet.


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## daveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> You have it back to front, the law abiding population tends to be the ones that seek and obtain a gun certificate if they wish too. The ones with a tarnished character would be denied one. That's the whole purpose.
> 
> In America, it's called background checks, it's just that some countries do them more thorough whilst knowing which guns are not suitable for home use.


What's your plan for getting criminals to submit to background checks?


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## daveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Gun culture prevents the safe handling and responsible use of firearms.


No, it really doesn't.  Gun culture promotes the legal and safe ownership of firearms.  Get training.  Follow the basic rules of firearms.  Practice, practice practice.


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## daveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I think that in order to own a firearm you need to pass a test in basic gun safety, ethics,, and responsible handling, applicable laws, and show you can hit what you aim at.


You can own and operate a vehicle without a license, as long as you don't take it on public roads.


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## daveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Rights carry responsibility and this is the only right that involves a tool who's sole purpose is to kill.


Merely showing you have a weapon is the majority of defensive gun uses.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 350 in SIX YEARS?
> 
> Shows gun control is working
> We get that on a weekend


There are 350 million people in the United States.  There are 5 million in New Zealand.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I think that in order to own a firearm you need to pass a test in basic gun safety, ethics,, and responsible handling, applicable laws, and show you can hit what you aim at.


I'm all for that, as long as the testing and training is free.


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## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

daveman said:


> Merely showing you have a weapon is the majority of defensive gun uses.


It doesn't alter the purpose of the tool, or the fact that if you show your weapon you should to use.


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## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> I'm all for that, as long as the testing and training is free.


I have no problem with that.


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## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

daveman said:


> You can own and operate a vehicle without a license, as long as you don't take it on public roads.


I sometimes wonder about the wisdom of that.


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## themirrorthief (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Yet gun ownership is not making us safer
> 
> We have the largest Prison population in the world yet still have one of the highest gun murder rates
> 
> ...


but  they  all  want  to  move  here  for  some  reason


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## themirrorthief (Dec 26, 2021)

Smokin' OP said:


> So, the Texas model is the way to go?
> 
> 
> There were 3,683 gun-related deaths in Texas in 2019.
> ...


and  people  are  moving  from  cali  to  texas in  droves


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> You should start with self-reflection.  There is hope yet.


I'll try to make this more simple. We in the UK, New Zealand, Australia etc.. know about America's constitution and the term Rights. Despite you gun guys mouth frothing over it, we know about this Rights issue you're hung up on. That's not our argument, so you can park that to one side.

So ignoring guns, just like, for example cars, do you think some kind of training with testing and a licence whilst regulating cars, is a good idea or bad idea? Do you think this regulation of cars increases, reduces or eliminates road accidents and deaths?


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Does requiring a car driving licence stop you from owning a car and driving it on the road?


In the US, we do not need a license to buy a car, own a car, keep a car on our powerty or operate it on private property.
A person in the US can have 50 vehicular homicide convictions, no hope of ever getting a driver's license in any state --- and still buy/sell as many cars as he likes.
And keep them on his property.
And can operate them,with out legal restriction, on private property.
Treat guns like cars?  Ok.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Gun culture prevents the safe handling and responsible use of firearms.


^^^
This is a lie.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I think that in order to own a firearm you need to pass a test in basic gun safety, ethics,, and responsible handling, applicable laws, and show you can hit what you aim at.


"No"
- US Constitution


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 350 in SIX YEARS?
> 
> Shows gun control is working
> We get that on a weekend






The population of Auckland is 800,000.  According to idiots, like you, there should be NO gun crimes.

After all, they are outlawed for normal people, and it is a FUCKING ISLAND!!!

So you don't have your normalgo to of the guns coming from an adjacent state.

DURRRR


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> In the US, we do not need a license to buy a car, own a car, keep a car on our powerty or operate it on private property.
> A person in the US can have 50 vehicular homicide convictions, no hope of ever getting a driver's license in any state --- and still buy/sell as many cars as he likes.
> And keep them on his property.
> And can operate them,with out legal restriction, on private property.
> Treat guns like cars?  Ok.


People that cherry pick quotes can go and fuck off.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> New Zealand didn't ban guns, they restricted certain types, you fuckwit.
> 
> Oh, and Merry Christmas.





The restrictions amount to a ban.  I lived in New Zealand for a couple of years, Riccarton near Christchurch.  I had friends who had gone through the onerous process to own pistols.  And that was back in the 1980's!

The only guns that were readily available to anyone back then were side by side shotguns.

The criminals cut them down and used them.  Duh.  That's what criminals do.

The Black Power gang, and the Mongrel Mob, not to mention the Mongols, and Hells Angels, have never had problems getting guns no matter the laws.

That is a simple fact.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> New Zealand vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats
> 
> 
> Rape rate, Crime levels, Intentional homicide rate, Murder rate per million people, Murder rate and 91 More Interesting Facts and Stats
> ...





The primary criminal element in New Zealand are the gangs.  And, for the most part, they limit their violence to opposing gangs.

The criminal element in the city of Chicago outnumbers ALL the gangs in New Zealand by over 10 to one.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We have access to over 300 million guns
> No other Country in the world has that open an access to firepower





Indeed, and you are more likely to be killed by a doctors mistake, than by a gun.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> You have it back to front, the law abiding population tends to be the ones that seek and obtain a gun certificate if they wish too. The ones with a tarnished character would be denied one. That's the whole purpose.
> 
> In America, it's called background checks, it's just that some countries do them more thorough whilst knowing which guns are not suitable for home use.




And yet the gangs in New Zealand are better armed than the police now.
Huh, I wonder how that happened?


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> The restrictions amount to a ban.  I lived in New Zealand for a couple of years, Riccarton near Christchurch.  I had friends who had gone through the onerous process to own pistols.  And that was back in the 1980's!
> 
> The only guns that were readily available to anyone back then were side by side shotguns.
> 
> ...


Apply for a New Zealand firearms licence 

You're welcome to point out the word "ban" in this link.


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> And yet the gangs in New Zealand are better armed than the police now.
> Huh, I wonder how that happened?


Cos you say so. Lol.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Gun culture prevents the safe handling and responsible use of firearms.





What a contemptible lie.  It is the gun culture that developed ALL of the safety rules that your buddy baldwin chose to ignore when he killed that poor woman.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Apply for a New Zealand firearms licence
> 
> You're welcome to point out the word "ban" in this link.






I never said ban.  I said the restrictions are so great that it may as well be a ban.

Talking about selective quoting you hypocritical ass.


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## rightwinger (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> Indeed, and you are more likely to be killed by a doctors mistake, than by a gun.




What a stupid statement


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Cos you say so. Lol.





No, beause it is true.  One of my best friends in New Zealand is a retired chief of police for Dunedin.

He keeps me well informed.  Your information is that which the government feeds you, I get it unfiltered.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> What a stupid statement





It is factual.  300,000,000 guns kill 40,000 per year.

800,000 doctors kill 120,000 per year according to the American Medical Associstion.

DURRRR


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> People that cherry pick quotes can go and fuck off.





Okay, you can go fuck off now, hypocrite.


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> I never said ban.  I said the restrictions are so great that it may as well be a ban.
> 
> Talking about selective quoting you hypocritical ass.


I posted your full quote.


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## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> I posted your full quote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> No, beause it is true.  One of my best friends in New Zealand is a retired chief of police for Dunedin.
> 
> He keeps me well informed.  Your information is that which the government feeds you, I get it unfiltered.


Cos you say so again, lol. The bovine excrement continues at a rapid pace


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## bodecea (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> When you outlaw guns, Kiwi outlaws will have guns.....
> 
> How is gun violence surging in New Zealand when they banned guns in an attempt to feel morally superior?
> 
> ...


So, you're lying again...all for your fetish.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall see if you can answer post #61, sensibly. I doubt it but I thought I would give you a go.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall do you think it's sensible to have food hygiene laws and regulations in the food industry?


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> westwall see if you can answer post #61, sensibly. I doubt it but I thought I would give you a go.





In my perfect world there would be training for all gun owners.  Free to those who can't afford it, but I would never make it a requirement because ultimately you create two classes of people, those who can afford guns, and those who can't.

Gun control is the ultimate form of classism.  I don't want the US to turn into India where a billionaires compound, surrounded by armed guards with machineguns, is plopped right in the middle of a poor neighborhood.

A neighborhood of poor, unarmed victims for the criminals who have no problem getting guns.

Here's a question for you.  Paris France has every gun law you want, plus more.  Yet 4 assholes were able to murder 130 people in downtown Paris.

What makes you think that gun control laws do anything other than disarm the law abiding.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> but  they  all  want  to  move  here  for  some  reason


I don’t think we have a mass migration from New Zealand coming over here….


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I don’t think we have a mass migration from New Zealand coming over here….





That's because they have no money to leave.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> In my perfect world there would be training for all gun owners.  Free to those who can't afford it, but I would never make it a requirement because ultimately you create two classes of people, those who can afford guns, and those who can't.


Why not make it FREE for EVERYONE then?  Just like contraception should be. If people took gun ownership seriously, maybe there would be fewer accidental shootings.  I was very intrigued by something NewsVine_Mariyam posted in another thread, on what she had to learn in order to get a conceal carry permit.  As a right, this one carries far more responsibility and consequences than any other and should be treated accordingly.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> That's because they have no money to leave.


Or maybe because it is considered the 9th happiest country.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> ^^^
> This is a lie.


No.  It isn’t.  Our gun culture wants almost nothing hindering a person from obtaining a gun.  Not a training requirement, not a background check, not even felony status or raising the minimum age (you can buy a gun but you can’t vote, drink or smoke or get a decent rate on auto insurance).


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> In my perfect world there would be training for all gun owners.  Free to those who can't afford it, but I would never make it a requirement because ultimately you create two classes of people, those who can afford guns, and those who can't.
> 
> Gun control is the ultimate form of classism.  I don't want the US to turn into India where a billionaires compound, surrounded by armed guards with machineguns, is plopped right in the middle of a poor neighborhood.
> 
> ...


I would say, having a car licence reduces incidents, having food hygiene regulations reduces food poisoning, having regulations with guns reduces gun incidents. In all three cases, people still die/injured from car accidents, people still die or suffer from salmonella, and people still die or injured from guns. In all three cases above, the regulations in each one reduces the deaths and injuries. Criminals still use cars, criminals sell spirits containing anti freeze, and criminals still use firearms. But it all three cases in most countries, it doesn't mean they want to get rid of driving test, food hygiene regulations, and firearm regulations.

You experienced crime rate in the U.S. at about 47.70 per 100,000 people. That's 0.0477%, yet you guys make out you're overwhelmed with criminals and guns. And the worse part for gun nuts, that's crime rate, not all crime involves a gun. So criminals with guns just does not wash, whatsoFUCKINGever, and apparently you're educated.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

daveman said:


> What's your plan for getting criminals to submit to background checks?


That kind of argument always comes.  But what about criminals…well, what ABOUT criminals?

They are still going to murder.
They are still going to assault. 
They are still going to rape.
They are still going to scam.
They still going to whizz in the public fountains.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> "No"
> - US Constitution


It isn’t in the Constitution.  That is only one interpretation.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I think that in order to own a firearm you need to pass a test in basic gun safety, ethics,, and responsible handling, applicable laws, and show you can hit what you aim at.


The courts have already held that such testing requirements are un-Constitutional.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> When you outlaw guns, Kiwi outlaws will have guns.....
> 
> How is gun violence surging in New Zealand when they banned guns in an attempt to feel morally superior?
> 
> ...


The thread premise is a lie.

No one has claimed that a given firearm regulatory measure will stop all gun crime and violence.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> People that cherry pick quotes can go and fuck off.


Ah.  You don't have a meaningful response.
Got it.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> New Zealand vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats
> 
> 
> Rape rate, Crime levels, Intentional homicide rate, Murder rate per million people, Murder rate and 91 More Interesting Facts and Stats
> ...


The OP is a liar and being dishonest – advancing the lie that because gun crime and violence occurs in countries with aggressive firearm regulatory measures, those measures ‘don’t work.’


----------



## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> No.  It isn’t.  Our gun culture wants almost nothing hindering a person from obtaining a gun.


Even it -this- lie were true, it has nothing to do with the 'gun culture" preventing the safe handling and responsible use of firearms.        
The NRA, for instance has innumerable training programs for the safe handling and responsible use for firearms, in contrast to the complete absence of same from "gun safety" organizations like Everytown and Moms Demand and Giffords and Brady.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> It isn’t in the Constitution.  That is only one interpretation.


And it's the interpretation consistent with the constitution applied to other rights.


----------



## Toro (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> When you outlaw guns, Kiwi outlaws will have guns.....
> 
> How is gun violence surging in New Zealand when they banned guns in an attempt to feel morally superior?
> 
> ...



Rate of Gun murders in the US > 5x rate of gun murders in New Zealand 

math is hard for gun porn consumers Derp Derp Derp


----------



## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Toro said:


> Rate of Gun murders in the US > 5x rate of gun murders in New Zealand


The US _*non*_-gun murder rate (2.27/100k) is 3x that of New Zealand's total murder rate (0.74/100k)
What does this prove?


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Rights carry responsibility


True.

Of course, government cannot compel responsibility; indeed, the purpose of regulatory policy is to act as a countermeasure to the propensity of individuals for irresponsible actions.

And that the Supreme Court will strike down Federal regulatory measures intended to address gun crime and violence doesn’t mean citizens are helpless to do anything about that crime and violence.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

Toro said:


> Rate of Gun murders in the US > 5x rate of gun murders in New Zealand
> 
> math is hard for gun porn consumers Derp Derp Derp




Has nothing to do with access to guns.......New Zealand a tiny Isand,  has a tiny population, homogenous.......the U.S. shares a border with the narco state of Mexico, and our social welfare programs have destroyed the black families in Americ, where we now have 75% of black children born out of wedlock.....that and democrat party policies create our gun crime...not guns...

The democrats in the U.S.

1). attack and handicap our police forces

2) keep releasing known, violent offenders, gun offenders in particular...who do almost all of the criminal shootings in this country......

And the criminals in New Zealand are no different...they have access to the guns they want and need.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

Toro said:


> Rate of Gun murders in the US > 5x rate of gun murders in New Zealand
> 
> math is hard for gun porn consumers Derp Derp Derp




You have to then explain why as more Americans bought and over 19.4 million carried guns in the US.....our gun murder rate went down 49%...our gun crime rate went down 75%...you have to explain that....

Over the last 27 years,  up to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*


This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

1) the democrat party keeps releasing violent gun offenders...they have created a revolving door for criminals who use guns, and will release even the most serious gun offenders over and over again....why?   Probably because they realise that normal people don't use their guns for crime, so if they want to push gun control, they need criminals to shoot people.....so they keep releasing them....

2)  The democrat party keeps attacking the police.....driving the officers into not doing pro-active policing, cutting detective forces so that murders go unsolved..........


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

bodecea said:


> So, you're lying again...all for your fetish.


The OP is advancing these ridiculous lies out of an unwarranted, meritless fear that a ‘new’ Federal AWB will be enacted.

There will be no such ‘ban’ – there is no political will to do so in Congress and the Supreme Court would strike down a ‘new’ AWB.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> No.  It isn’t.  Our gun culture wants almost nothing hindering a person from obtaining a gun.  Not a training requirement, not a background check, not even felony status or raising the minimum age (you can buy a gun but you can’t vote, drink or smoke or get a decent rate on auto insurance).


Correct – it’s not a lie.

We see proof of this in scores of threads on this very forum – conservatives’ disdain and opposition to the _Heller_ Court’s reaffirmation of the fact that the Second Amendment is not unlimited.

The right’s unwarranted hostility to necessary, proper, and Constitutional firearm regulatory measures.

Conservatives who advance the lie that the Second Amendment ‘entitles’ private individuals to possess the same weapons as the military.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> New Zealand banned guns


This is a lie.

New Zealand did not ‘ban’ guns.


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> What a moron you are





Facts are facts.  Funny how you are the moron who can't refute them, and no surprise, your little pseudo intellectual ball washer chimes in.


----------



## daveman (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> That kind of argument always comes.  But what about criminals…well, what ABOUT criminals?
> 
> They are still going to murder.
> They are still going to assault.
> ...


Indeed.  Meanwhile, gun control laws only have the effect of reducing or eliminating people's right to self-defense with firearms against those criminals who don't obey gun laws.

Why do you want people defenseless against criminals?


----------



## daveman (Dec 26, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> The US _*non*_-gun murder rate (2.27/100k) is 3x that of New Zealand's total murder rate (0.74/100k)
> What does this prove?


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Why not make it FREE for EVERYONE then?  Just like contraception should be. If people took gun ownership seriously, maybe there would be fewer accidental shootings.  I was very intrigued by something NewsVine_Mariyam posted in another thread, on what she had to learn in order to get a conceal carry permit.  As a right, this one carries far more responsibility and consequences than any other and should be treated accordingly.






Rights that have requirements to enjoy them, are not RIGHTS.  

How about this, anyone who successfully passes a rigorous training regime is protected 100% from prosecution if they shoot someone in self defense.  No prosecution like the asshole DA tried with Rittenhouse, plus no civil litigation is allowed.

How about that?


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Or maybe because it is considered the 9th happiest country.






3.4 million people.  1 million work.  It's easy to be happy when you are on the dole.


----------



## daveman (Dec 26, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Correct – it’s not a lie.
> 
> We see proof of this in scores of threads on this very forum – conservatives’ disdain and opposition to the _Heller_ Court’s reaffirmation of the fact that the Second Amendment is not unlimited.
> 
> ...


The AR-15, a common target for irrational leftist fear and hatred, is not a military weapon and never has been.

Yet the left continually lies about it, saying it's a "weapon of war".

It isn't.  Never has been.  Never will be.  And is used in less than 3% of all homicides.

Steak knives are used in over 5 times the number of homicides as rifles as a whole.

But nobody's talking about banning steak knives, are they?

Do you know why?

It's because nobody ever defended their freedom against leftist tyranny with steak knives.


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> I would say, having a car licence reduces incidents, having food hygiene regulations reduces food poisoning, having regulations with guns reduces gun incidents. In all three cases, people still die/injured from car accidents, people still die or suffer from salmonella, and people still die or injured from guns. In all three cases above, the regulations in each one reduces the deaths and injuries. Criminals still use cars, criminals sell spirits containing anti freeze, and criminals still use firearms. But it all three cases in most countries, it doesn't mean they want to get rid of driving test, food hygiene regulations, and firearm regulations.
> 
> You experienced crime rate in the U.S. at about 47.70 per 100,000 people. That's 0.0477%, yet you guys make out you're overwhelmed with criminals and guns. And the worse part for gun nuts, that's crime rate, not all crime involves a gun. So criminals with guns just does not wash, whatsoFUCKINGever, and apparently you're educated.





You compare the US which has a criminal population in ONE city (Chicago) that is equal to half the population of your second largest city.  That city doesn't prosecute criminals.  There are dozens of cases where murderers have been set free on bail, who then, sometimes within hours, go out and kill someone else.

So, is it a gun problem, or a progressive "keep sending the violent criminals out into society to do more violence" problem?


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> That kind of argument always comes.  But what about criminals…well, what ABOUT criminals?
> 
> They are still going to murder.
> They are still going to assault.
> ...






Ok, so how do you put the genie back in the bottle?  You have now admitted that criminals do horrible things.  Good people don't.  Good people DON'T go murder, rape, rob, and riot.  Yet you wish to punish good people for the crimes of the few.

That make any sort of sense to you?

And if it does, why?


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The thread premise is a lie.
> 
> No one has claimed that a given firearm regulatory measure will stop all gun crime and violence.






That is the most common reason given by the progressive left for gun bans.

Don't be even more stupid than you provably are.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> Ok, so how do you put the genie back in the bottle?  You have now admitted that criminals do horrible things.  Good people don't.  Good people DON'T go murder, rape, rob, and riot.  Yet you wish to punish good people for the crimes of the few.
> 
> That make any sort of sense to you?
> 
> And if it does, why?


Our laws act in two ways: pro-active (as in reducing the factors that might lead crime or loss of life), reactive (punitive, punishing tbe actual crime)…right?

As such for any crime we layers of rules and laws designed to prevent it and layers of rules and laws designed to enforce consequences once a crime is committed OR an accidental loss of life or injury occurs that may not be a crime.

So let’s take driving for example.  On the preventive side we have:

Age limits
License
A test of skill and knowledge in order to get a license.
A vision exam

All that before can even legally drive.

Then, there are laws that govern the vehicle which the driver needs to follow:
Regular safety inspections
Requiring insurance
working head and tail lights 

And more yet for the driver:
seatbelts and car seats
no texting and driving
no driving while impaired
Setting speed limits

All of the above on the preventive side, and applies to all drivers good or bad.

Once something has happened, other laws takes effect.

Are good drivers being punished?


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> You compare the US which has a criminal population in ONE city (Chicago) that is equal to half the population of your second largest city.  That city doesn't prosecute criminals.  There are dozens of cases where murderers have been set free on bail, who then, sometimes within hours, go out and kill someone else.
> 
> So, is it a gun problem, or a progressive "keep sending the violent criminals out into society to do more violence" problem?




If you look at gun deaths, the state with the highest number is Alaska 23).  The state with the lowest is MA (3.4).

If you look at the map at this link most of the states with high gun deaths are not progressive states but deep red.





__





						Gun Deaths by State 2022
					





					worldpopulationreview.com


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Our laws act in two ways: pro-active (as in reducing the factors that might lead crime or loss of life), reactive (punitive, punishing tbe actual crime)…right?
> 
> As such for any crime we layers of rules and laws designed to prevent it and layers of rules and laws designed to enforce consequences once a crime is committed OR an accidental loss of life or injury occurs that may not be a crime.
> 
> ...






A firearm is inert until someone pulls the trigger.  I have rifles that are 200 years old that have never hurt a fly.

Cars, on the other hand, are not inert.  They are mobile objects, and, based on accident data, far more dangerous than firearms.  Under 120 million cars kill 30,000 per year.  300 million plus, firearms murder under 10,000.  The rest of the gun deaths are suicides.

Idiots love to claim that taking guns away will prevent suicides but real world data proves that to be untrue.


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> If you look at gun deaths, the state with the highest number is Alaska 23).  The state with the lowest is MA (3.4).
> 
> If you look at the map at this link most of the states with high gun deaths are not progressive states but deep red.
> 
> ...




Yeah, 60% are suicides.  That's why the gun death rate is so high in Alaska.  Winter is depressing.  Look at Scandanavian suicide rates, even higher.

WITH GUN CONTROL.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> So let’s take driving for example.


You do not need a license to buy or own a car.
You can have 50 convictions for vehicular homicide and own as many cars as you want.
You can keep them all on your property, and can use them at will, on private property.
All w/o a license.
So much for your example.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> A firearm is inert until someone pulls the trigger.  I have rifles that are 200 years old that have never hurt a fly.
> 
> Cars, on the other hand, are not inert.  They are mobile objects, and, based on accident data, far more dangerous than firearms.  Under 120 million cars kill 30,000 per year.  300 million plus, firearms murder under 10,000.  The rest of the gun deaths are suicides.
> 
> Idiots love to claim that taking guns away will prevent suicides but real world data proves that to be untrue.


Actually cars ARE inert.  Until someone starts them up.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> You do not need a license to buy or own a car.
> You can have 50 convictions for vehicular homicide and own as many cars as you want.
> You can keep them all on your property, and can use them at will, on private property.
> All w/o a license.
> So much for your example.


True.  Let’s apply that to guns then.  I could go along with that.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> Yeah, 60% are suicides.  That's why the gun death rate is so high in Alaska.  Winter is depressing.  Look at Scandanavian suicide rates, even higher.
> 
> WITH GUN CONTROL.


That doesn’t account for the other states in the top tier.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> A firearm is inert until someone pulls the trigger.  I have rifles that are 200 years old that have never hurt a fly.
> 
> Cars, on the other hand, are not inert.  They are mobile objects, and, based on accident data, far more dangerous than firearms.  Under 120 million cars kill 30,000 per year.  300 million plus, firearms murder under 10,000.  The rest of the gun deaths are suicides.
> 
> *Idiots love to claim that taking guns away will prevent suicides but real world data proves that to be untrue.*


Actually there is something there.  In suicides, women attempt it more often, but men succeed more often.  Men are much more likely to use a gun and gun is pretty good at killing.  If you could limit access to a weapon doing a vulnerable moment, it might prevent that suicide.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

westwall said:


> That is the most common reason given by the progressive left for gun bans.
> 
> Don't be even more stupid than you provably are.


You’re as much a liar as the OP.


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Actually cars ARE inert.  Until someone starts them up.





The JOB of a car is to move.  The job of a gun is to sit silently until needed.


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Actually there is something there.  In suicides, women attempt it more often, but men succeed more often.  Men are much more likely to use a gun and gun is pretty good at killing.  If you could limit access to a weapon doing a vulnerable moment, it might prevent that suicide.





No, it won't.  Many contries have far higher suicide rates that have strict gun control.

People intent on suicide will succeed.  Most suicide attempts don't succeed because they don't want to die.  They are screaming for help the only way they know how.


----------



## westwall (Dec 26, 2021)

Coyote said:


> That doesn’t account for the other states in the top tier.





Depression is the cause of suicides.  Not access to guns.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Dec 27, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Does requiring a car driving licence stop you from owning a car and driving it on the road? No, because, you pass a test, buy a car, it comes with a log book (registration papers) and you drive on the road according to some rules. In the UK, each year, the car has an MOT to make sure it's road worthy. Does this stop criminals using a car? No. Do they have access to one if needed? Yes.
> 
> Do car nuts protest that it's against their rights to own a car with such regulation? Do these regulations stop accidents and deaths? Nope, but it reduces them, hence why we all have them.
> 
> ...






Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> There are 350 million people in the United States.  There are 5 million in New Zealand.


About the same size and population as Colorado.


Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> There are 350 million people in the United States.  There are 5 million in New Zealand.


There were over twice the amount of gun deaths in Colorado, 845 in one year (2019) than NZ had in 6 years.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Dec 27, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> and  people  are  moving  from  cali  to  texas in  droves


Good, get all the crazies one one area.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 27, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Our laws act in two ways: pro-active (as in reducing the factors that might lead crime or loss of life), reactive (punitive, punishing tbe actual crime)…right?
> 
> As such for any crime we layers of rules and laws designed to prevent it and layers of rules and laws designed to enforce consequences once a crime is committed OR an accidental loss of life or injury occurs that may not be a crime.
> 
> ...




The people doing almost all of the shooting can't buy, own or carry a gun......they are doing so illegally.   On top of that, owning and carrying a gun is a Right.....you guys in the past, used Literacy tests and Poll taxes to deny voting rights to blacks.......you want to do the same thing today with licensing and registration and the other silliness for guns......


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 27, 2021)

westwall said:


> Yeah, 60% are suicides.  That's why the gun death rate is so high in Alaska.  Winter is depressing.  Look at Scandanavian suicide rates, even higher.
> 
> WITH GUN CONTROL.




Also, they don't have enough police....remote Indian villages have no police officers so when something happens, it can take hours for police to get to the scene.....


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 27, 2021)

Coyote said:


> If you look at gun deaths, the state with the highest number is Alaska 23).  The state with the lowest is MA (3.4).
> 
> If you look at the map at this link most of the states with high gun deaths are not progressive states but deep red.
> 
> ...




We went through this on another thread, those Red States have cities under total control by the democrats and their 1) attack police policies, and 2) release violent criminals over and over policies....


----------



## Smokin' OP (Dec 27, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Also, they don't have enough police....remote Indian villages have no police officers so when something happens, it can take hours for police to get to the scene.....


YES, they do, the tribal police.
And yes, sometimes it takes awhile to get there.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 27, 2021)

Smokin' OP said:


> YES, they do, the tribal police.
> And yes, sometimes it takes awhile to get there.




Moron...

*There are at least 75 Native American Alaskan villages that don't have any law enforcement, reports The Washington Post. Isolated by long distances and difficult terrain, those residents must report crimes and wait for Alaska State Troopers to arrive in the village after hours of traveling.
----
“Unfortunately, there are places in rural Alaska that if a woman is raped or a child is beaten, that victim might not get any help whatsoever,” Associate Attorney General Tony West told The Washington Post. “It can take a day and a half before responders show up to the scene of a crime or to a call for help. Imagine if you were a victim of violence and you can’t get help because weather conditions don’t allow you to get out of your village. Where are you supposed to go? You have nowhere to go.”*









						Alaska Is A Terrifying Place To Be The Victim Of A Crime
					

Although Alaska has high crime and rape rates, many of its isolated communities don't have police forces.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Smokin' OP (Dec 27, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron...
> 
> *There are at least 75 Native American Alaskan villages that don't have any law enforcement, reports The Washington Post. Isolated by long distances and difficult terrain, those residents must report crimes and wait for Alaska State Troopers to arrive in the village after hours of traveling.
> ----
> ...


Moron, can't read your own comment?

* “It can take a day and a half before responders show up to the scene of a crime or to a call for help.*

That's an extreme situation you could be in a remote little village an NEVER get help.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Dec 27, 2021)

Coyote said:


> True.  Let’s apply that to guns then.  I could go along with that.


Good to see tyou do not mind convicted felons having firearms.


----------



## daveman (Dec 27, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Actually there is something there.  In suicides, women attempt it more often, but men succeed more often.  Men are much more likely to use a gun and gun is pretty good at killing.  If you could limit access to a weapon doing a vulnerable moment, it might prevent that suicide.


So do you want a complete ban, with people given a chance to turn in their weapons, and the government inspecting each house to ensure compliance?


----------



## braalian (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 350 in SIX YEARS?
> 
> Shows gun control is working
> We get that on a weekend


You can’t automatically assume their lower gun violence rate is due to their gun control laws. There are other factors. Less poverty, smaller cities, more homogeneous demographics. Correlation of two pieces of data doesn’t automatically mean causation.

Even in the United States the gun violence numbers and gun control laws don’t line up in any predictable way. Cities with stricter gun control laws still have sky high gun crime rates. The criminals still don’t have much difficulty finding guns when they really want them.


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## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Coyote said:


> That doesn’t account for the other states in the top tier.



Yeah, the reason the other states have high violent crime rates is the democrat party controlled cities and their policies…..

1) The democrats have handicapped the police in those cities.

2) The democrats and their policies release known, violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again…it is these individuals, not normal gun owners who are driving the violent crime rates…….


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## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

braalian said:


> You can’t automatically assume their lower gun violence rate is due to their gun control laws. There are other factors. Less poverty, smaller cities, more homogeneous demographics. Correlation of two pieces of data doesn’t automatically mean causation.
> 
> Even in the United States the gun violence numbers and gun control laws don’t line up in any predictable way. Cities with stricter gun control laws still have sky high gun crime rates. The criminals still don’t have much difficulty finding guns when they really want them.



Rightwinger doesn’t care…..he is at best a troll, and at worst an anti- gun extremist.


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## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Actually there is something there.  In suicides, women attempt it more often, but men succeed more often.  Men are much more likely to use a gun and gun is pretty good at killing.  If you could limit access to a weapon doing a vulnerable moment, it might prevent that suicide.



Nope…….you then have to explain how South Korea Japan, China, and many European countries and Canada have higher suicide rates than we do…….South Korea and Japan with extreme gun control.


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## Coyote (Dec 28, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Yeah, the reason the other states have high violent crime rates is the democrat party controlled cities and their policies…..
> 
> 1) The democrats have handicapped the police in those cities.
> 
> 2) The democrats and their policies release known, violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again…it is these individuals, not normal gun owners who are driving the violent crime rates…….




Uh huh.


2aguy said:


> Nope…….you then have to explain how South Korea Japan, China, and many European countries and Canada have higher suicide rates than we do…….South Korea and Japan with extreme gun control.


I’m not talking about suicide or other countries.  I’m talking about the US.  Every country is different in this regard.  In the US it is guns and unlike some other methods it is immediate and irrevocable.   Given that getting to the point of attempting it can often be impulsive things like a brief wait period before purchasing a handgun or the ability to temporarily remove guns from someone at risk for suicide makes sense.


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## Coyote (Dec 28, 2021)

braalian said:


> You can’t automatically assume their lower gun violence rate is due to their gun control laws. There are other factors. Less poverty, smaller cities, more homogeneous demographics. Correlation of two pieces of data doesn’t automatically mean causation.
> 
> Even in the United States the gun violence numbers and gun control laws don’t line up in any predictable way. Cities with stricter gun control laws still have sky high gun crime rates. The criminals still don’t have much difficulty finding guns when they really want them.


I agree that what drives crime rates and gun violence is complicated ( too bad those who harp on race and crime don’t also recognize this) and I agree correlation isn’t necessarily causation.  But one piece of data is consistent.  In comparable countries to ours, that have stricter gun laws, crimes, violence  and deaths related to guns are considerably lower.

Is it fact it is harder to get a gun and penalties harsher?  Is a different national relationship to guns?  ie a tool, a responsibility, not a “right”?  Other?


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## westwall (Dec 28, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> I’m not talking about suicide or other countries.  I’m talking about the US.  Every country is different in this regard.  In the US it is guns and unlike some other methods it is immediate and irrevocable.   Given that getting to the point of attempting it can often be impulsive things like a brief wait period before purchasing a handgun or the ability to temporarily remove guns from someone at risk for suicide makes sense.





Jumping off a building, a bridge, hanging,  crashing your car into something.  Hanging, Etc.  Etc. Etc.

People intent on suicide are successful.  Real world statistics prove beyond doubt that guns don't cause suicide.


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## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> I’m not talking about suicide or other countries.  I’m talking about the US.  Every country is different in this regard.  In the US it is guns and unlike some other methods it is immediate and irrevocable.   Given that getting to the point of attempting it can often be impulsive things like a brief wait period before purchasing a handgun or the ability to temporarily remove guns from someone at risk for suicide makes sense.



You guys always try this…….those other countries…with extreme gun control…..their people actually kill themselves more than our people do……guns have nothing to do with it……you have no rational point on suicide and guns, since suicide success is based on determination, not guns, as these other countries demonitrate.


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## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I agree that what drives crime rates and gun violence is complicated ( too bad those who harp on race and crime don’t also recognize this) and I agree correlation isn’t necessarily causation.  But one piece of data is consistent.  In comparable countries to ours, that have stricter gun laws, crimes, violence  and deaths related to guns are considerably lower.
> 
> Is it fact it is harder to get a gun and penalties harsher?  Is a different national relationship to guns?  ie a tool, a responsibility, not a “right”?  Other?




Moron...we are the ones who recognize this...it is assholes like you who blame guns as the sole reason......

Crime is created by fatherless homes....sadly, the black community in democrat run cities has an out of wedlock birth rate of over75%....this creates generational poverty and crime......fathers help prevent both...baby daddy's do not.   Then, when the democrats have created these fatherless homes through their attacks on the traditional family using the welfare state, they then go on to attack the police, handicapping them and then, they refuse to keep violent, repeat, violent criminals in jail and prison....

I keep posting this incident.....we had 5 gang members caught on video shooting at each other on a public street.....two of them on the ground with bullets in them...democrat party states attorney kim foxx, a george soros backed candidate, refused to prosecute any of them..........

these are the reasons we have gun crime..

We don not have gun crime because normal people own and carry guns......but normal people who own and carry guns are the only thing you shitheads focus on...


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## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I agree that what drives crime rates and gun violence is complicated ( too bad those who harp on race and crime don’t also recognize this) and I agree correlation isn’t necessarily causation.  But one piece of data is consistent.  In comparable countries to ours, that have stricter gun laws, crimes, violence  and deaths related to guns are considerably lower.
> 
> Is it fact it is harder to get a gun and penalties harsher?  Is a different national relationship to guns?  ie a tool, a responsibility, not a “right”?  Other?



*But one piece of data is consistent.  In comparable countries to ours, that have stricter gun laws, crimes, violence  and deaths related to guns are considerably lower.*

Wrong...

IN America.....for 27 years we had an increase in gun ownership and people carrying guns for self defense.....what happened?

According to you, gun violence should have increased....it didn't...

Gun murder went down 49%

Gun crime went down 75%...

How do you explain that......?

It changed in 2015......why....because the democrat party decided to go to war against our police forces....and they ramped up their release programs for violent criminals...

Over the last 27 years,  up to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

1) the democrat party keeps releasing violent gun offenders...they have created a revolving door for criminals who use guns, and will release even the most serious gun offenders over and over again....why?   Probably because they realise that normal people don't use their guns for crime, so if they want to push gun control, they need criminals to shoot people.....so they keep releasing them....

2)  The democrat party keeps attacking the police.....driving the officers into not doing pro-active policing, cutting detective forces so that murders go unsolved..........

*Again, you refuse to look at the other factors and focus only on guns....the very countries you point to have criminals who use fully automatic military weapons and grenades as their primary weapons...they simply choose not to murder each other as often as American criminals do...*

In America....criminals murder each other...that is where almost all of our gun murder exists......normal gun owners are not shooting people and murdering people with guns...

European criminals use AK-47 military rifles, and they like to throw handgrenades too....but they don't do it as often and they don't murder each other as often...

Our criminals shoot each other over insults, girlfriends and social media posts...theirs dont.....but even that is changing..

Also, their welfare states have just reached the point where their families have completely broken down.....now they are seeing more and more violence from their teenagers...you don't even take that into account...

As their teenagers become more violent, and they also have access to guns....you are going to see an increase in gun violence their...

Look at Sweden......of all the countries in Europe, you wouldn't expect gun violence...but they are one of the worst countries in Europe for gun violence........and the weapons their criminals use are fully automatic military rifles and grenades.......

So you just see guns...you don't see the actual social dynamics that create gun violence...

It isn't guns, it is the culture of the criminals that determines gun violence.....

*So....you blame guns.........yet you can't explain why our gun crime rate went down 49%, and our gun crime rate went down 75%, if your theory is that access to guns creates more gun crime....which it didn't for 27 years before the democrat party policies went into effect...........

Of the two of us....who is actually looking at all of the factors?*


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## AZrailwhale (Jan 2, 2022)

Coyote said:


> I sometimes wonder about the wisdom of that.


Why?  Farmer's kids have been operating motor vehicles as long as there have been motor vehicles.  Kids operate off road vehicles all the time, usually without problems.


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## AZrailwhale (Jan 2, 2022)

Toro said:


> Rate of Gun murders in the US > 5x rate of gun murders in New Zealand
> 
> math is hard for gun porn consumers Derp Derp Derp


And what's the comparison for gun ownership?  Ten thousand to one?  Twenty thousand to one?  More?  What's the number comparing criminals in New Zealand to the USA?  Ten thousand to one?  More?


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## AZrailwhale (Jan 2, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.
> 
> New Zealand did not ‘ban’ guns.


It essentially did.  Gun ownership is entirely at the mercy of the police.  Only someone they judge worthy who has an essential need can get licensed to possess a gun.  Even then almost all firearms are banned.  The requirements for a competitive shooter are almost impossible to meet with just some of them being: sponsored by a recognized and official competition shooting club.  Attending six matches in twelve months, attending twelve club events in twelve months and on and on.  Subjects of the New Zealand government have no right to possess or use weapons at all, not even for self-defense.  Armed security guards are even banned.


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## AZrailwhale (Jan 2, 2022)

Coyote said:


> Actually there is something there.  In suicides, women attempt it more often, but men succeed more often.  Men are much more likely to use a gun and gun is pretty good at killing.  If you could limit access to a weapon doing a vulnerable moment, it might prevent that suicide.


Why do you want to prevent suicide?  It's the ultimate personal decision.  It's almost always an overreaction, a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  But what business of yours is it if someone else decides to end his or her life?


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## daveman (Jan 2, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Why do you want to prevent suicide?  It's the ultimate personal decision.  It's almost always an overreaction, a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  But what business of yours is it if someone else decides to end his or her life?


Most irrational anti-gunners don't give a shit about victims of gun violence.

They just want people disarmed.


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## basquebromance (Jan 16, 2022)

"if guns are outlawed, how am i gonna shoot liberals?"

sign i saw yesterday...terrible!


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 16, 2022)

basquebromance said:


> "if guns are outlawed, how am i gonna shoot liberals?"
> 
> sign i saw yesterday...terrible!


A completely valid question.


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