# China to develop more aircraft carriers



## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

More the merrier I guess. 

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BEIJING: Buoyed by successful trials of its first aircraft carrier, China plans to build more new carriers as it looks to spread out its global naval presence in the midst of maritime disputes with a host of neighbors.

China is planning to build more aircraft carriers in addition to the two-year-old Liaoning, which it purchased from Ukraine and commissioned in 2012, state-run Global Times reported on Monday.

Although Chinese authorities have never openly confirmed whether a homemade carrier is underway, they have also never denied it.

China to develop more aircraft carriers - The Times of India


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 2, 2014)

Hey Japan, hurry up with your nuclear missile program.


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## B. Kidd (Dec 2, 2014)

China has to cover Russias backdoor when Russia pre-emptively nuclear strikes the USA.


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Hey Japan, hurry up with your nuclear missile program.



In my assessment, China has very vindictive attitude towards Japan. It is like they are clamoring for vengeance.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 2, 2014)

Vikrant said:


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Yes, they're not exactly kissing cousins. If you watch CCTV, the criticism of Japan by China, North & South Korea, Vietnam, etc., this year has been more vociferous than it's been since the 1940's. Most of that is China though. They're big and rich and they're flexing their muscles. It comes down to territory and the oil that's under that territory. The War College still regards China as the most ominous potential threat against America, not Islam. 12 million hardcore communists run the show over there, less than 1% of the population.


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


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I have not heard Vietnam complaining that much about Japan. At least not recently. These days Vietnam is more concerned about China than Japan and should be.


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## Unkotare (Dec 2, 2014)

B. Kidd said:


> China has to cover Russias backdoor when Russia pre-emptively nuclear strikes the USA.




China is NOT going to stick their neck out to cover Russia's ass. Make no mistake.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 2, 2014)

Vikrant said:


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Actually both sides are extremely hostile towards one another. Putting all the blame on only one of them, and of course ignoring the role of the U.S., is extremely simplistic and wrong.


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## mdk (Dec 2, 2014)

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Makes sense. The Vietnamese positively hate China and have for many many centuries.


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## Manonthestreet (Dec 2, 2014)

China not having much success with carrier it has. Not quite working right


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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Before 1971 war between India and Pakistan, China promised Pakistan that it will attack India from the east so that India will have very limited offensive capability left against Pakistan. But when the actual war came, China never came to Pakistan's aid and poor Pakistan had to surrender to India after a humiliating defeat. The surrender itself perhaps was one of the most dishonorable surrender in the history of mankind.


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## rightwinger (Dec 2, 2014)

Cool...more targets


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 2, 2014)

mdk said:


> Makes sense. The Vietnamese positively hate China and have for many many centuries.



And the NVA showed the world what kind of army we'd been battling for years when China invaded North Vietnam in 1975. The Chinese were massacred.


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

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Unless you are talking about World War II transgressions of Japan for which Japan has already apologized, I do not see how Japan is being hostile towards China today.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 2, 2014)

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Senkaku. They're both being belligerent towards each other over those islands.


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

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It is China who is stirring up pot there. Senkau Islands were first surveyed by Japan in mid 1800s. Japan was the first country to do that. Senkaku Islands have been administered by Japan since 1895. In 1970 when oil was discovered near Senkaku, China laid its claim on Senkaku using so called ancient Chinese maps. This is the same bogus tactics Chinese have used against some other nations in the region.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 2, 2014)

Anyone else seen the Chinese film, *Back to 1941*? The scale is huge, the story is riveting, and the acting is first rate. It's probably the finest film to come out of China yet. It's about the people of Henan Province who fled the coastal areas for the backcountry trying to stay ahead of the invading Japanese army. Two million of them died of starvation. The film concentrates on the terrible hardships suffered by a single family. *"A Spectacular Epic"*--Hollywood Reporter  

At any rate, a nation that lost 12 million people at the hands of an invading army isn't so ready to forgive, just because the Japanese PM spends twenty minutes at the mike saying "I'm sorry."


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Anyone else seen the Chinese film, *Back to 1941*? The scale is huge, the story is riveting, and the acting is first rate. It's probably the finest film to come out of China yet. It's about the people of Henan Province who fled the coastal areas for the backcountry trying to stay ahead of the invading Japanese army. Two million of them died of starvation. The film concentrates on the terrible hardships suffered by a single family. *"A Spectacular Epic"*--Hollywood Reporter
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OK. So China is not willing to forgive and forget Japan. What is their excuse for invading and killing Tibetans? 

This kind of vengeance oriented foreign policy of China is going to deal disaster for the region, world and China itself.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 2, 2014)

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You say they're bogus, and Japan says they're bogus. That doesn't mean that they are. Here are the facts: China and Japan have both laid claim to these islands, and they're both being aggressive toward the other over possessing them. It's hard to say only China is the aggressor here when you have a Japanese government violating its own constitution to build up its military again in an effort to stake its claim on these islands.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 2, 2014)

Vikrant said:


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The communists don't care. If they thought for a New York Minute that they could get away with nuking our cities, they'd do it. The next great conflict in China is going to be internal, the growing middle class made affluent via capitalism, against the entrenched communists who represent a very small proportion of the population, but who'd destroy the country before they'd see their power usurped. They have 400,000 paramilitary riot police to keep all the proles in line.


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

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Japan was the first country to survey and administer those Islands. They have been under Japanese administration since late 1800s. This clearly establishes that those islands are Japanese Islands. Keep in mind China did not lay claim on those islands till 1970 when oil was discovered there. 

If we were to use your logic, China could claim territory of any country on flimsy excuses and the poor country at the receiving end of Chinese expansionist design would be just as guilty as China for defending its territory. This is absurd.


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


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Rise of Chinese communists is one of the darkest chapters in our recent history. They destroyed Chinese culture. They invaded and killed neighbors. They brainwashed Chinese people to the extent that average Chinese is not sure what is right and what is wrong. The last point was perhaps the saddest.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 2, 2014)

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I'm sorry but I don't simply take your word as evidence that something is so.


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

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Are you saying China discovered, surveyed and administered Senkaku before Japan did?


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## Vikrant (Dec 2, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy

The link below chronicles the timeline of Senkaku dispute between China and Japan. Note that in 1969 the UN reported  that there was oil deposit near Senkaku Islands. Two years later, China and Taiwan officially claim Senkaku Islands. Don't you think that is bizarre? 

Timeline of Japan-China Dispute Over East China Sea Islands


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## Politico (Dec 3, 2014)

B. Kidd said:


> China has to cover Russias backdoor when Russia pre-emptively nuclear strikes the USA.


How can they do that? They would have to be able to land planes on the first one.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 3, 2014)

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No, I'm not making a claim either way. Merely pointing out that I don't simply accept the word of somebody on a message board, especially when they seem to have a bias against one of the participants in a dispute and want to simplify it down to only being that participant's fault.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 3, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy
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> The link below chronicles the timeline of Senkaku dispute between China and Japan. Note that in 1969 the UN reported  that there was oil deposit near Senkaku Islands. Two years later, China and Taiwan officially claim Senkaku Islands. Don't you think that is bizarre?
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> Timeline of Japan-China Dispute Over East China Sea Islands


I think there's a problem with your link, and that problem is that the timeline only goes as far back as 1895 and cites no sources to back up its claims. China was at one point the most advanced civilization on the planet and could very well have made a claim on the Senkaku islands before Japan. Does that mean that they did? No, but it does seem strange that an ancient and expanding civilization would simply ignore uninhabited territory for so long.

Regardless, let's assume that your link is correct. "Japan unilaterally annexes five islands and three barren rock groups in the East China Sea, calls them "Senkaku."" Where did Japan get the right to unilaterally annex these islands? Does taking and administering the islands, as you called it, give them the right to the islands? Of course this criticism also applies to China. Assuming they had annexed and administered the islands I see no more right for them to claim them than Japan.

Furthermore, I find your position that Japan's alleged claiming of this territory in earlier times gives them a right to the islands today a bit hypocritical. Earlier in the thread you said of China, "What is their excuse for invading and killing Tibetans?" Their excuse is the same excuse you're putting forward for Japan's ownership of the Senkaku islands, that Tibet was a legitimate part of China and that they were simply reclaiming their territory. If you're going to accept Japan's ownership of Senkaku on this basis, and assuming that it's factually correct, then you have to also accept China's ownership of Tibet because nobody disputes that Tibet was a part of China for a long time before they tried to declare independence during the Chinese Civil War.

My position is that neither Japan nor China has a legitimate claim to the islands, and that their military posturing over the islands, along with the U.S. government's backing of Japan, is possibly the most dangerous conflict on the planet right now.


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## Vikrant (Dec 3, 2014)

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Your entire post is devoid of what sane people call logic. I am very sorry for the harsh nature of my characterization of your post but that is the truth. 

The timeline only goes as far back as 1895 because that is the earliest recorded history we have of Senkaku Islands. Now, if you have any proof of recorded history of Chinese presence in Senkaku Islands before 1895, please provide it. By proof I mean impartial sources not Chinese propaganda materials designed to brainwash the gullible. 

There is no proof that China has ever been more advanced than Japan. I am simply not going to accept that China was the most advanced civilization just because a biased person on the internet says so. It was an advanced civilization but there is no proof that it was more advanced than Japan. Lack of ancient Chinese maritime accomplishments is quite evident. Even Indians who do not make the claim of being the most advanced civilization have left plenty of proofs that demonstrate their ancient maritime activities. All you have to do is take trips to islands like Java, Sumatra, Bali, etc. and see for yourself. There is no such proof of Chinese activities. This clearly establishes that Chinese did not have capability to survey and administer Senkaku Islands before Japan did. I am pretty sure that Chinese may have been aware of those islands before 1895 but so could have been other people in the area; that does not say much either way. There is difference between being aware of something and taking steps to claim ownership. 

Once humans started venturing out, they looked for and settled vacant lands to avoid conflicts - at least the good ones. That is what Japanese did. Unlike Chinese who massacred Tibetans to take over Tibet, Japanese did not kill anyone on Senkaku Islands to take over the islands simply because the islands were uninhabited. So, it baffles me that you are attempting to establish parallels between Chinese actions in Tibet and Japanese actions in Senkaku. 

Japan is not going by any ancient claims. It surveyed the islands in 1895 and it has pretty much administered the islands ever since. China never controlled the islands. It simply started to claim the islands sometime after 1970 when the oil was discovered there. 

China has to sooner or later realize that everything that happened in the past cannot be replicated today. Whatever China had in past is in past. They have to face the current realities. It is not just China, every country has to keep that in mind. For example, during Mauryan Empire, India controlled large land mass that included current day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh, etc. India even had governors on islands in current day Indonesia, Sri Lanka, etc. 

Your position on this issue is not neutral. Here is why. Those islands are Japanese islands. By saying that both Japan and China have equal claims on those islands, you are making those islands disputed. That is precisely what China is doing. It has turned Japanese islands into disputed territory using propaganda. 

My position is that Japan is the legitimate owner of Senkaku Islands. Furthermore, Chinese position is irresponsible and it violates international laws and conventions. It threatens a war which can be avoided by sticking to current status quo. In light of all this, it becomes clear that China does not value human rights.


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## Syriusly (Dec 3, 2014)

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Really? No proof that China was ever more advance than Japan?

Who developed the writing system that Japan uses today? (Actually as I understand it, 1 of the three systems Japan uses today). Japan adopted Chinese script- not the other way around. 

Japan is an ancient civilization, but China is even more ancient. 

And Chinese maritime expertise is quite well known- we know that China made it at least to the East Coast of Africa by the 1400's. 

As far as other claims- this appears to have a compelling argument to the other claims

Senkaku Diaoyu Islands of Conflict History Today

Mind you- I don't really care who owns them- Japan or China- just that it isn't exactly as simple as you portray it.


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## Vikrant (Dec 3, 2014)

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Languages move around and get modified in the process. It is a pretty standard stuff. For example, Sanskrit is considered mother (or father depending on your preference) of all Indo-European languages. This does not mean India is more advanced than England. Kanji of Japanese writing system is based on Chinese characters. But rest of the components of Japanese writing systems such as kanas (hiragana and katakana) were Japanese inventions that showed the superiority of Japanese culture. 

Japan and China are bothe ancient. Japan has been a bit superior. 

The myth propagated by Gavin Menzies that China explored African and American coasts in 1421 has been debunked by various competent scholars/organizations. I will name a few here:

a) Australian Broadcasting Corporations aired a program debunking this myth. It was called Junk History. 
b) Victor Prescott who is a professor who specializes in cartography found flaws with the maps that were supposedly used by Chinese explorers. 
c) Geoff Wade, a prominet researcher too had issues with the cartography of Gavin Menzies. 
d) Professor Bill Richardson from Australia called those maps fake. 
e) Dr Stephen Davies from Hong Kong investigated and found no record whatsoever of a Chinese ship docking in any of the Italy's harbor as claimed by Menzies. 
f) P. J. Rivers, Master Mariner called the book a product of Menzies's imagination. He investigated Menzies's claim that Chinese sailed through Cairo. There was nor record of it whatsoever anywhere. 

Now, let us come back to the link you have posted about Senkaku Islands dispute. That link itself says that Chinese made the claim on Senkaku in 1970s. Why did Chinese wait for so long to make the claim if the islands were part of their territory for hundreds of years? 

I do not take your claim of neutrality seriously given that you have posted nothing but Chinese propaganda even though they have been debunked thoroughly.


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## Luddly Neddite (Dec 3, 2014)

B. Kidd said:


> China has to cover Russias backdoor when Russia pre-emptively nuclear strikes the USA.



Neither will attack the US.


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## Staidhup (Dec 3, 2014)

China and Russia are just filling a void and nature detests voids, thank the President and all his minions. We allowed government to dumb down education so it stands to reason national defense should be compromised as well. As a wise man once said you have a choice, cut government spending or you will be forced to cut national defense.


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## Syriusly (Dec 3, 2014)

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Okay lets go through this step by step

Writing- writing is separate from languages- which is why for instance English can use Latin script, and Japan can use Chinese logograms.

The Chinese developed the logograms, and the Japanese adopted them- not the other way around.


Vikrant said:


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Let us review what your original claim was:


_There is no proof that China has ever been more advanced than Japan_

Chinese logograms predate Japanese kanas._ China was using a writing system before Japan was. 

*Modern Day Views*

Nowadays there is more-or-less consensus on a few points concerning the origin of writing. First of all, writing was invented independently in at least three places, Mesopotamia, China, and Mesoamerica. Recent discoveries might also provide evidence that writing was invented in Egypt and Indus independently of Mesopotamia.

Ancient Scripts Origins of Writing Systems
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*Chinese writing,* basically logographic writing system, one of the world’s great writing systems.

Like Semitic writing in the West, Chinese script was fundamental to the writing systems in the East. Until relatively recently, Chinese writing was more widely in use than alphabetic writing systems, and until the 18th century more than half of the world’s books were written in Chinese, including works of speculative thought, historical writings of a kind, and novels, along with writings on government and law.

It is not known when Chinese writing originated, but it apparently began to develop in the early 2nd millennium bc. The earliest known inscriptions, each of which contains between 10 and 60 characters incised on pieces of bone and tortoiseshell that were used for oracular divination, date from the Shang (or Yin) dynasty (18th–12th century bc), but, by then it was already a highly developed system, essentially similar to its present form. By 1400 bc the script included some 2,500 to 3,000 characters, most of which can be read to this day. Later stages in the development of Chinese writing include the _guwen_ (“ancient figures”) found in inscriptions from the lateShang dynasty (_c._ 1123 bc) and the early years of the Zhou dynasty that followed. The major script of the Zhou dynasty, which ruled from 1046 to 256 bc, was the _dazhuan_ (“great seal”), also called the _Zhou wen_ (“Zhou script”). By the end of the Zhou dynasty the _dazhuan_ had degenerated to some extent.

The script was fixed in its present form during the Qin period (221–207 bc). The earliest graphs were schematic pictures of what they represented; the graph for _man_ resembled a standing figure, that for _woman_ depicted a kneeling figure.

Chinese writing -- Encyclopedia Britannica


I do not claim that China is superior to Japan- or vice versa- but China is the older civilization, and clearly was more advanced when it came to writing than Japan up until Japan developed its own writing system- and adopted China's.


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## Vikrant (Dec 3, 2014)

China being an older civilization does not mean China settled Senkaku before Japan given the clear lack of Chinese maritime capabilities. Menzies is the one who started propagating this myth. It goes beyond Menzies though. But the scholars have clearly demonstrated that there is no proof of Chinese ships sailing anywhere near Africa in 1400. There is no record in India either that proves that Chinese visited India through sea in 1400. This is all hoax. You are welcome to believe it. I am done with this topic.


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## Syriusly (Dec 3, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> China being an older civilization does not mean China settled Senkaku before Japan given the clear lack of Chinese maritime capabilities. Menzies is the one who started propagating this myth. It goes beyond Menzies though. But the scholars have clearly demonstrated that there is no proof of Chinese ships sailing anywhere near Africa in 1400. There is no record in India either that proves that Chinese visited India through sea in 1400. This is all hoax. You are welcome to believe it. I am done with this topic.



Yes you are done with it.

LOL.....


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

Syriusly said:


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I am certainly done with China being superior to Japan  This is not my first rodeo. I have debated with Chinese posters making outlandish claims before. It gets tiring and boring real fast. Communist party has brainwashed Chinese people. Now they are on a mission to brainwash rest of us


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

The issue with the handlers of China is that they are trying to makeup for what they lacked by rewriting what is called revisionist history.


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## Syriusly (Dec 4, 2014)

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LOL.....Then don't make outlandish claims yourself.

Both the Chinese and Japanese civilizations are older than every Western country- both have reasons to be proud of their accomplishments, and both have events that they would prefer to ignore.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

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You made outlandish claims. I simply debunked you. Then you wrote large volume of garbage. Finally, now you are creating a straw man argument. Your posting style is textbook example of propaganda.


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## Delta4Embassy (Dec 4, 2014)

B. Kidd said:


> China has to cover Russias backdoor when Russia pre-emptively nuclear strikes the USA.



No nation-state is going to use nukes. The retaliatory strike assures that. If a nuke is used in anger it's going to be by a terrorist group that got vaporized in the process. The retaliation then wont be nuclear but conventional and devastating against whoever supplied the nuke. 

Only country which might conceivably use a nuke is DPRK. If the regime looks unstable and has nothing to loose, I could envision 'little kim' using a nuclear strike to scare the hell out of everyone for money and assurances of not doing it again. Of course by going that route all restraint goes away and the South will roll through the DMZ, Japan, the US and allies will basically take over the North. But being the crazy, delusional 'I'm God' sorta person, Kim might think he'd have a shot. 

No one else nation-wise is that crazy not even Putin.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

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You kept claiming that Syriusly and myself were biased in favor of the Chinese government, when it's clear from your posts that you're the one who's biased against them. Saying Japan is "superior" to China is a meaningless comment based entirely on nonsense. The so-called superiority is simply a subjective idea based on your own dislike of China, not on anything in reality.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

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Actually there was no straw man argument in that post, nor has Syriusly taken China's side on any issue. Your entire contribution to the thread has essentially boiled down to "Nuh uh, China sucks." That simplistic analysis, along with a complete disregard for China's place in history, doesn't cut it.


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## Syriusly (Dec 4, 2014)

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LOL.....yeah.....in your dreams.

Oh and by the way- China can't even make its current aircraft carrier work- it is decades away from designing and launching a decent aircraft carrier of its own, let alone have the naval infrastructure to support it.


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## Syriusly (Dec 4, 2014)

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I agree in general with you- but I do think that any nation controlled by a authoritarian government might use nukes IF their country was invaded and IF it looked like they might personally die or be deposed. As you pointed out- a little Kim would probably care less if half of his countries population died if he survived.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

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You are wrong again. It is you who supported Chinese claim on Senkaku based on their ancient advanced civilization. I simply debunked your claim. Go back and read your own post. You are not neutral and I have given you the reasons. 

I do not think it is a good idea to take neutral stand when the dispute is between a hegemony and self defense. You are essentially categorizing Japan the victim of Chinese aggression as the aggressor. This is dishonest.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

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All you are doing is engaging in anti Japan propaganda.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

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Are you all right?


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## Syriusly (Dec 4, 2014)

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I am fine- thank you for your concern.


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## Syriusly (Dec 4, 2014)

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LOL....you are the only one committed to one side on this issue. 

Japan and China both have claims on the rocks(actually Taiwan does too)- Japan's is more solid because it has been recognized for longer. 

I tend to support Japan's claim more because I happen to agree with Japan more than China.

That doesn't mean I have to pretend like you do that China never noticed these rocks before 1895.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

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I am glad to hear that.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

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I am committed to reason. 

China has no claim. Senkaku is not a disputed territory. It is Japanese. 

History is history. As far as today is concerned, Japan is much more respectable player in the region. Japan does not start claiming someone else's territory and start dispute the moment oil is discovered there. However that is the pattern with China. 

Listen homie, I notice Julia Roberts too. That does not maker her mine. That is the way it is with Senkaku and China and Japan.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

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I directly stated that I do not support either government's claim to the islands, and yet you continue to get my position wrong. Yet another reason not to take you seriously.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

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I've said nothing negative about the Japanese, as opposed to your continued attacks on the Chinese.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

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The bolded portion may be a true statement, but it is completely irrelevant to the topic.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy

I did not get your position wrong. I am talking about the stated position of yours on this thread about Senkaku dispute. It is quite possible that you may have meant to write something else and thought you were writing something else but ended up writing something entirely different. In that case, that is your fault not mine. Your sated position considers Senkaku Islands disputed territory. This is exactly what Chinese wanted. They have been successful at labeling Senku, an undisputed territory as disputed territory. That is not a neutral stance. On top of that you floated Chinese propaganda. 

There is nothing negative to say about Japan so if you are not saying anything negative about Japan, it simply means that you are doing the right thing. Unfortunately however, there are quite a few negative things about China. Pointing out those actions of China which can be characterized as crimes against humanity (e.g., Tibet and Xinjiang), intimidation of weaker neighbors (e.g., Philippines), making irrational territorial claims with total disregard to peace and security (e.g., Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, India and so on) is not negativity against China. It is called obligation to speak truth. It is certainly not an attack on Chinese. 

Japan's character as a responsible player in the region commands respect and credibility and is therefore relevant to the topic.


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## rightwinger (Dec 4, 2014)




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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy
> 
> I did not get your position wrong. I am talking about the stated position of yours on this thread about Senkaku dispute. It is quite possible that you may have meant to write something else and thought you were writing something else but ended up writing something entirely different. In that case, that is your fault not mine. Your sated position considers Senkaku Islands disputed territory. This is exactly what Chinese wanted. They have been successful at labeling Senku, an undisputed territory as disputed territory. That is not a neutral stance. On top of that you floated Chinese propaganda.
> 
> ...


Here are my exact words with a link to the post that they appeared in so that everyone can see that there is no way to possibly get my position wrong, unless that position is inconvenient so you simply make up a straw man argument.


Kevin_Kennedy said:


> My position is that neither Japan nor China has a legitimate claim to the islands...


That you continue to erroneously claim I'm on China's side, or spewing Chinese propaganda is clearly nonsense. Even if everything you said is true and you left out absolutely no other facts there is nothing controversial whatsoever about stating that there is a dispute over these islands. Even if Japan is completely in the right and China completely in the wrong there is still a dispute, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it at all.

"There is nothing negative to say about Japan..." Well that shows who the biased poster in this thread is. Abe is unconstitutionally building up Japan's military over this issue, which is something negative to say. Diplomacy is the way forward, not belligerence. Which, again, is not to say that China isn't also being belligerent. They are. Conducting military exercises over the islands and unilaterally declaring them Chinese territory is an example of their belligerence.

As for floating Chinese propaganda, I'm going to need you to provide a link to that. All I've pointed out is that China was at one point one of the most advanced civilizations on the planet, and this was long before Japan flourished. And that's not a dig against Japan anymore than it's a dig against the United States to say that both China and Japan were advanced long before we were even a nation at all.

The point is that you have some vendetta against China, and you're projecting that onto those of us who point out that things aren't simply black and white by stating that we're propagandists for China and that we hate Japan. Get real.


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## Vikrant (Dec 4, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin_Kennedy
> ...



You have demonstrated your hostility towards Japanese people by expecting them to not modify their constitution in order to be able to defend themselves against Chinese aggression. That shows on your part a clear disregard for safety and security of Japanese people. Your incessant anti Japanese posts are nothing but deplorable.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


And your claim that the Japanese constitution was "modified" shows you don't know what you're talking about. The constitution wasn't modified but merely ignored.

 Reinterpreting Article 9 endangers Japan s rule of law The Japan Times


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## Roadrunner (Dec 4, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Tom Sweetnam said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Japan, hurry up with your nuclear missile program.
> ...


They have much justification for vengeance.

But, carriers are basically obsolete; useful against places like Vietnam and Iraq, that have no navy, but not the power base they were.

We should let China build themselves broke; we'd sink them all in the first day of a shooting war with China.


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## Roadrunner (Dec 4, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Tom Sweetnam said:
> ...


Turnabout is fair play.

Japan has much karma to settle.


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## Roadrunner (Dec 4, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Anyone else seen the Chinese film, *Back to 1941*? The scale is huge, the story is riveting, and the acting is first rate. It's probably the finest film to come out of China yet. It's about the people of Henan Province who fled the coastal areas for the backcountry trying to stay ahead of the invading Japanese army. Two million of them died of starvation. The film concentrates on the terrible hardships suffered by a single family. *"A Spectacular Epic"*--Hollywood Reporter
> 
> At any rate, a nation that lost 12 million people at the hands of an invading army isn't so ready to forgive, just because the Japanese PM spends twenty minutes at the mike saying "I'm sorry."


Read "The Rape of Nanking".

China has a big score to settle with Japan.

They did not get their revenge, like the USSR got on Russia.

Payback would be a real bitch.


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## Roadrunner (Dec 4, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Tom Sweetnam said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...



Chinese communism jerked a backward ass people 500 years forward.

100 years ago, they were the doormat of the world, today, the world's largest economy.

Sometimes a people need a kick in the ass to get jump started.


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## Roadrunner (Dec 4, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> B. Kidd said:
> 
> 
> > China has to cover Russias backdoor when Russia pre-emptively nuclear strikes the USA.
> ...


The interest on our debt to China funds their entire military.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 4, 2014)

Love the liberal responses in this thread. Poor innocent China. China's reds have only murdered 65 million of their own people since the 1930's.


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## Roadrunner (Dec 4, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Love the liberal responses in this thread. Poor innocent China. China's reds have only murdered 65 million of their own people since the 1930's.


In 65 year, Reds transformed the poorest nation on Earth into a superpower.

Jerked them 500 years forward.

That cannot be done painlessly.


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## Unkotare (Dec 4, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Tom Sweetnam said:
> ...





Are you trying to cram as much ignorant bullshit into one thread as possible?


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Tom Sweetnam said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone else seen the Chinese film, *Back to 1941*? The scale is huge, the story is riveting, and the acting is first rate. It's probably the finest film to come out of China yet. It's about the people of Henan Province who fled the coastal areas for the backcountry trying to stay ahead of the invading Japanese army. Two million of them died of starvation. The film concentrates on the terrible hardships suffered by a single family. *"A Spectacular Epic"*--Hollywood Reporter
> ...


China has no score to settle with Japan. How many of the actual victims of any Japanese aggression are even still alive?


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 4, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Tom Sweetnam said:
> 
> 
> > Love the liberal responses in this thread. Poor innocent China. China's reds have only murdered 65 million of their own people since the 1930's.
> ...


Please. The Chinese are as communist as the U.S. is capitalist. Both are mixed economies. It wasn't until the Chinese enacted capitalist reforms that their economy began to grow.


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## Unkotare (Dec 4, 2014)

Syriusly said:


> Let us review what your original claim was:
> 
> 
> _There is no proof that China has ever been more advanced than Japan_
> ...




Another copy and paste 'scholar.'


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## B. Kidd (Dec 5, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Love the liberal responses in this thread. Poor innocent China. China's reds have only murdered 65 million of their own people since the 1930's.



And on top of this, Mao had bad breath!


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## Indofred (Dec 5, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Tom Sweetnam said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Japan, hurry up with your nuclear missile program.
> ...



Yes, and all because Japan stole their islands, started a war against them, mass murdered on an unbelievable scale, raped their women when they were forced to work as comfort women, and generally refuse to accept any fault for Japanese war crimes.


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## Vikrant (Dec 5, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin_Kennedy said:
> ...



Your anti Japan attitude is there for all to see. Japan has right to self defense.  Interpretation of Japanese constitution is up to Japanese people not you. They are taking steps to defend themselves. That does not violate Japanese constitution. They are also working to modify the constitution. There is nothing wrong with that. But of course that will prevent China from carrying out vengeance. You do not want that. You want to see Japanese people suffer at the hands of Chinese. Shame on you.


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## Vikrant (Dec 5, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > Tom Sweetnam said:
> ...



That was a first somewhat reasonable post from you that I can remember on this thread. China has to discard its vengeance oriented foreign policy and adopt live and let live attitude. Past cannot be undone. But Chinese clamor for vengeance against Japanese which will result in injustice against Japanese can be prevented and it should be. That is my position on this issue.


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## Mindlight (Dec 5, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...



Both Chinese and Japanese cultures have strong national mythologies about why we should regard them as the superior people. Both are quite racist in essence although Communism casts a slightly different light on Chinese rhetoric today. Think you have to take their claims case by case and attach probabilities to their veracity. 

But surely, as the Chinese building aircraft carriers ( a global power projection capability) illustrates, the real issue here is how things are going to develop in the future. They appear to have global ambitions and already have global trade and supply routes to protect. The projections are that China will be richer, stronger and given its land size and population less scared of conflict than the Japanese. Also they may have some measure of a case when it comes to places like Taiwan for instance though I am less sure about Senkaku

America and its network of allies currently have an immense advantage over the Chinese. What we do now is what will guard us later.

It seems to me that the advantage that the Americans (and those who ally themselves with them) will continue to have regardless of how big China grows is its global network of friendships and bases. This is something the Chinese really are not equipped to counter and it is extremely unlikely they will ever more weight than the US & Europe & Japan working together. The Chinese are hated or mistrusted by almost all their neighbours and even gas deals with Russia are not going to change that.


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## irosie91 (Dec 5, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...



So true  "mind"------china is china-----as it has been for thousands of years------kinda militaristic------and now carries the Legacy of  MAO------who the Chinese have not discredited-------maybe someday he will be something like
STALIN is in -----Moscow------but not yet.    I do not believe
that china has given up its  Imperialist delusions


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## Syriusly (Dec 5, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > Let us review what your original claim was:
> ...



LOL....as opposed to your inciteful and substantiated post....


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 5, 2014)

China's communists responsible for their economic boom? That's a laugh. Where else on earth have communists seen economic prosperity in any of the countries where they've murdered their way into power? China's economic boom came about because of A: Richard Nixon; B: Unconscionable American labor union greed that just in the decade from 1969-1979 saw the forced closure of thousands of large American factories and the exportation overseas of 32 million American jobs; C: Tens of billions in American investment; and D: A predisposition in the Chinese personality for higher education and entrepreneurship that almost guaranteed them success in the their transition from slavery into a free market economy.

Ask of China's 110 million strong middle class demographic, how many spend their days reading Mao's little red book. This is a country that produces 60,000 new millionaires every year as well as half a dozen new billionaires every year. Their middle class has disposable income enough to buy condos, new cars (they love Buicks), and to send their kids to private schools. How long till the clash with the reds do you think?


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## irosie91 (Dec 5, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> China's communists responsible for their economic boom? That's a laugh. Where else on earth have communists seen economic prosperity in any of the countries where they've murdered their way into power? China's economic boom came about because of A: Richard Nixon; B: Unconscionable American labor union greed that just in the decade from 1969-1979 saw the forced closure of thousands of large American factories and the exportation overseas of 32 million American jobs; C: Tens of billions in American investment; and D: A predisposition in the Chinese personality for higher education and entrepreneurship that almost guaranteed them success in the their transition from slavery into a free market economy.
> 
> Ask of China's 110 million strong middle class demographic, how many spend their days reading Mao's little red book. This is a country that produces 60,000 new millionaires every year as well as half a dozen new billionaires every year. Their middle class has disposable income enough to buy condos, new cars (they love Buicks), and to send their kids to private schools. How long till the clash with the reds do you think?




so true----but the Chinese ancestor worshippers have not
repudiated uncle,  grandpa   Mao yet


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## Mindlight (Dec 5, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> China's communists responsible for their economic boom? That's a laugh. Where else on earth have communists seen economic prosperity in any of the countries where they've murdered their way into power? China's economic boom came about because of A: Richard Nixon; B: Unconscionable American labor union greed that just in the decade from 1969-1979 saw the forced closure of thousands of large American factories and the exportation overseas of 32 million American jobs; C: Tens of billions in American investment; and D: A predisposition in the Chinese personality for higher education and entrepreneurship that almost guaranteed them success in the their transition from slavery into a free market economy.
> 
> Ask of China's 110 million strong middle class demographic, how many spend their days reading Mao's little red book. This is a country that produces 60,000 new millionaires every year as well as half a dozen new billionaires every year. Their middle class has disposable income enough to buy condos, new cars (they love Buicks), and to send their kids to private schools. How long till the clash with the reds do you think?



Chinese Communism was always different from European and Soviet versions of it and in destroying the old China that was decadent and declining may have done China a favour in the long run. Mao may have been a blood stained deceiver but those who have followed after him have not been so bad and his agrarian and narrow view of Communism has mainly been jettisoned since the failure of the Cultural Revolution. The future of China is in its cities not its peasants. Also Chinas current openness to capitalism and comparatively lenient treatment of Christians (compared to the Soviet Union) mean that it has slightly more spending power and legitimacy than the Soviet Union ever could have had. I see these guys as being an imperfect ruling class who have their countries interests at heart. Also anyone familiar with Chinese history (with the long and bloody civil war and with the warlords that divided China before that) will not value the disunity that would inevitably result if they were deposed. I would hope for a more peaceful transition to a more democratic way of doing things. That said this does not mean we need to kowtow to their own racist and imperialist agenda and one should be mindful that their countries interest is to often interpreted as expansionary and rather arrogant and that their neighbours have no wish to be trampled on by a resurgent China. It may hard for them to learn how to be a teamplayer when they are so clearly the biggest kid on the block though- clearly they see no need to bow to global opinion in Hong Kong for instance.  I think blaming American job losses on China is not really fair. Their addition to the world economy has added overall value and a new growth centre that survived the crash in Western economies for instance. It is better to engage with China that to try and simply shut them out. The world no longer works like that and no nation is an island not even japan or the USA!


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## irosie91 (Dec 5, 2014)

yes----MAO hit china like a fire storm-------a kind of slash and burn approach ------now it's growing well


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## Roadrunner (Dec 5, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> yes----MAO hit china like a fire storm-------a kind of slash and burn approach ------now it's growing well


He bitchslapped it forward 500 years.

One hundred years ago it was a decadent, feudal state, poor, illiterate and diseased.

The cure was harsh, but, it got done.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 5, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > yes----MAO hit china like a fire storm-------a kind of slash and burn approach ------now it's growing well
> ...



Of course he did. This murdering peasant with no education (who never bathed...ever) bitch-slapped the Chinese industrial and high-tech base into line with Japan, the US, and every other nation to whom China owes the scientific and technological prowess it enjoys today, without any benefaction from the aforementioned braintrust. Anyone who believes that needs to be bitch-slapped themselves.


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## irosie91 (Dec 5, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...




silly---in slash and burn agriculture-----does the  FIRE know what it's doing?


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 5, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> Tom Sweetnam said:
> 
> 
> > Roadrunner said:
> ...



No. Professor Rudolph Rummel, late of Yale and the University of Hawaii, classified these national slash and burn states of affairs, at least the ones that left countless dead people in their wake, as acts of democide. The worst one in modern history was Mao's own doing*: *his war against the sparrows. He harbored a pathological loathing of the little birds, so he ordered their complete destruction. The resulting 1950's famine, because grasshoppers destroyed China's wheat crop, killed 31 million people.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 5, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


Hilarious.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 5, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Roadrunner said:
> ...


That's because you're delusional.


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## Vikrant (Dec 5, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin_Kennedy said:
> ...



You find Japanese people getting violated by Chinese aggression hilarious.  This further tells me that you have an ax to grind with Japanese folks.


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## Vikrant (Dec 5, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin_Kennedy said:
> ...



You are arrogant and dishonest. Shame on you for wanting to see innocent Japanese folks suffer just to support China's vengeance oriented foreign policy. I personally would like to see both Japan and China live in peace but that is not going to happen as long as we have people like you supporting vengeance.


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## Unkotare (Dec 5, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Mao may have been a blood stained deceiver but those who have followed after him have not been so bad...





"Not so bad"? ????????


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 5, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


I find your delusions hilarious.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 5, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


Uh huh.


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## Unkotare (Dec 5, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > yes----MAO hit china like a fire storm-------a kind of slash and burn approach ------now it's growing well
> ...



He caused the deaths of tens of millions and delayed China's development by many decades, you idiot.


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## Vigilante (Dec 5, 2014)

Perhaps we can TRADE China for a REDUCED DEBT payment for this one, AFTER the Manchurian muslim has left?


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 5, 2014)

I doubt the military would name even a new portable toilet after the great race-baiting shit-burner.


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## irosie91 (Dec 5, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



he certainly did kill lots of people-----he was quite a bastard---
the issue that is being thrown around here is the fact that
china is doing a lot better now than it did before Mao-----Mao
did not actually cause the famine there-----it kinda happened
without his help


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## Vigilante (Dec 5, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> I doubt the military would name even a new portable toilet after the great race-baiting shit-burner.



I don't think they have any say in it with this regime....


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 5, 2014)

Ships can be sunk.


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## Vigilante (Dec 5, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


> Ships can be sunk.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 5, 2014)

Mao didn't cause the great Sparrow famine??? He slaughtered millions of the little birds, then insects, billions of which were normally eaten by the sparrows, destroyed China's wheat crop. How was he NOT responsible for the death of 30 million people?


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## Unkotare (Dec 6, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> -----Mao
> did not actually cause the famine there-----it kinda happened
> without his help



That is incorrect.


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## Mindlight (Dec 6, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mindlight said:
> 
> 
> > Mao may have been a blood stained deceiver but those who have followed after him have not been so bad...
> ...



By Global standards Mao was one of the most evil rulers ever to walk the planet. The body count from his wars and purges being the evidence of this. He was a destroyer. But without the destruction of old China that he accomplished I doubt China would be so prosperous. By Chinese standards the latest leaders have been good ones facilitating peace and prosperity. The average Chinese has more choice and opportunity today than in any previous generation. This is an improvement on what came before in pre WW1 China


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## Unkotare (Dec 6, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> But without the destruction of old China that he accomplished I doubt China would be so prosperous.




That is an illogical conclusion.


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## Unkotare (Dec 6, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> the latest leaders ...




Now you've altered your previous claim.


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## Unkotare (Dec 6, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Both Chinese and Japanese cultures have strong national mythologies about why we should regard them as the superior people. ....




So does everyone else.


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## Vikrant (Dec 6, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin_Kennedy said:
> ...



I find your callous attitude towards Japanese folks disturbing.


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## Mindlight (Dec 6, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mindlight said:
> 
> 
> > But without the destruction of old China that he accomplished I doubt China would be so prosperous.
> ...



No the interwar Republic also tried to reform but failed because there was simply too much baggage and the Japanese invasion scuppered what progress they made. The corruption of the Late Manchu dynasty and foreign imperialism made it impossible to make proper reforms.  Mao not only cleared that out but he also secured Chinas borders (and got the nuclear deterrant) making the later reforms possible. But he himself was more akin to the current North Korean leadership than the modern Chinese leadership and most Chinese were poor and oppressed under his rule. I am not praising Mao - he was a monster but old China had to be destroyed for modern China to rise.


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## Mindlight (Dec 6, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mindlight said:
> 
> 
> > Both Chinese and Japanese cultures have strong national mythologies about why we should regard them as the superior people. ....
> ...



Some claims are more credible than others or do you really believe that the Emperors lineage includes the sun goddess?


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## Unkotare (Dec 6, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Mindlight said:
> ...



Those are more illogical conclusions. Your opinion is ignorant and ill-considered.


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## Unkotare (Dec 6, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Mindlight said:
> ...




You seem to believe in straw men.


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## Roadrunner (Dec 6, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


How many uncles or great uncles of yours died in Jap camps or in the Marines fighting them?


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## Unkotare (Dec 6, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin_Kennedy said:
> ...





Former enemies meet to honor dead - Baltimore Sun

But _you_, who had no real part in any of it, pretend to hold onto a grudge that isn't yours to hold? It speaks ill of your character.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 6, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Mindlight said:
> ...


The reality is that they'd probably be further along if they hadn't had their productive capacity destroyed and put backwards for so many years after the civil war.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 6, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


Good one, Darth.


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## RKMBrown (Dec 6, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> More the merrier I guess.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


Maybe we should've considered communist china as a strategic problem before we invested in their industry and moved tens of millons of our jobs there and made them such a big trading partner and let the democrats sell out all of our secrets to them and and and and and and ....


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## Vikrant (Dec 6, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin_Kennedy said:
> ...



Get back to the discussion without supporting following:

a) Vengeance against current day Japanese who had nothing to do with past actions
b) Encouraging Chinese hegemony in the region which has potential to create more injustices in the region


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## Roadrunner (Dec 6, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


Had no part of it?

Heard of my grandmother's only son's death all my life.

So, fuck yourself, WWII cast a pall over all of us all our lives.

I wish the fuckers had caught ten more nukes.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 6, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


That should be easy, since I never supported either in the first place.


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## Vikrant (Dec 6, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Roadrunner said:
> ...



Chinese too have killed Americans. Have you forgotten Korean war? Does this mean Americans should continue to hold grudge against Chinese forever? 

If we continue to think in terms of nothing but vengeance then we will never get out of this vicious cycle of vengeance. If you justify Chinese people killing Japanese based on past actions of Japanese then the next generation of Japanese will want vengeance against Chinese too. 

Chinese have killed 690,000 Tibetans. Should Tibetans seek vengeance against Chinese who had nothing to do with these acts of Chinese government?


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## Roadrunner (Dec 6, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Considering the ill will shown on this and other boards toward Southerners, any lectures on the past, and forgetting, mean nothing.


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## Mindlight (Dec 7, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Mindlight said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



No I very much doubt that. The Chiang Kai-shek regime was corrupt, incompetent and incredibly disunited. Modern China would have been a vast corrupt gangster state and if they built aircraft carriers they would probably have been empty shells with all the key technologies stolen during the construction process. Also the Communists had the peoples hearts. Also it is doubtful that they would have been able to extricate themselves from negative foreign influences as thoroughly as did Mao. Also the nuclear deterrant which safeguarded Chinas borders would not have been as quickly developed as it required Soviet support. Communism was probably Chinas cleanest and most effective way to the future but the Communist party now is hardly recognisable as a real Communist party. Now it is a ruling elite that unites the country and with mistaken ideas about establishing Chinese regional hegemony. The bitterness against Japan should drive Japan into the arms of the Americans because really they have no where else to go.


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## Mindlight (Dec 7, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > More the merrier I guess.
> ...



Kissinger had a choice between continued hostility and trying to bring China into the international community. The later is probably a better strategy because as a result China has become dependent on the trade it enjoys with the rest of the world. The Chinese growth engine is very popular in China and has been a spur to world growth also. If it stops then the ruling elite know they are in trouble so China has no place to go except up. Grow or break is Chinas reality. My view is that America is probably better off with a prosperous and capitalist China than with the vastly enlarged and far more dangerous version of North Korea that it would have otherwise been.


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## Mindlight (Dec 7, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mindlight said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Except this is not.


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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)




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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)




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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)




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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)

While China's Navy may be inept compared to ours, never underestimate their ability to move forward and end up with a global threat on the seas over time........................

The disputed Islands and flexing of muscles in the region are real................

Japan has begun arming up over the situation............

Japan increases defence budget amid tensions with China World news The Guardian

Japan is to significantly increase its defence spending over the next five years to acquire surveillance drones, fighter jets, naval destroyers and amphibious vehicles to counteract China's growing military activity in the region.

New defence and security strategies ordered by Japan's conservative prime minister, Shinzo Abe, and approved on Tuesday, include the creation of a new amphibious unit modelled on the US marines, which would be called on to retake islands captured by an enemy – a clear response to Chinese naval and aerial activity near the disputed Senkaku islands.

Relations between Japan and China have sunk to their lowest point in decades over the East China Sea islands, which are administered by Japan but also claimed by China.

Over the past year Chinese surveillance ships have made regular incursions into waters near the islands, and last month Beijing increased the pressure on Tokyo when it declared an air-defence identification zone across a wide area of the East China Sea that includes the Senkakus, known in China as the Diaoyu. The islands' location makes them strategically important, and they are thought to lie amid potentially huge natural gas deposits.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 7, 2014)

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> Vikrant said:
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> > Kevin_Kennedy
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The islands are going to belong to whoever wants them badly enough to take them. If that means military force, and I'm sure it's going to, then so be it. Most of the guerrilla wars in Asia, with the exception of things like insurrections by China's Muslims, are all about oil.


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## Politico (Dec 7, 2014)

Again China cannot launch or land any planes on the one refurbished carrier they have.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Dec 7, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> B. Kidd said:
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> 
> > China has to cover Russias backdoor when Russia pre-emptively nuclear strikes the USA.
> ...



And then it doesn't really matter who spends the most. It's the quality and superiority of the end product that matters. Time Magazine devoted most of an issue late last year to American military spending and the end products we're getting for our tax dollar. American military prowess is just spectacular. No one else in the world comes anywhere close. Alarmists as they existed during the Cold War have no reason for being any longer. The one place we're sorrowfully lacking is the most basic contingent of any nation's military readiness*: *ground troops. Infantry, armor, artillery, etc. is where the American military sees serious shortcomings in numbers. It's all volunteer now. Some of our military personnel did half a dozen tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. I communicate with several every day here in the US. They're very tired. They're sick of fighting. I can hardly blame them.


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## Unkotare (Dec 7, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Had no part of it?
> ....




Yes, had no part of it. You never fired a single shot in WWII, yet you pretend to harbor a grudge that isn't yours. Many men - many times your betters - managed to reconcile wartime enemies with peacetime allies, but not a pretender like you? You are a false little poseur.


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## Unkotare (Dec 7, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Vikrant said:
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Officer, the straw man just appeared out of nowhere!


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## Unkotare (Dec 7, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Unkotare said:
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By definition it is, since no one made the claim to which you allude.


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## 2aguy (Dec 7, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
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Communism was China's cleanest way.....they had the people's hearts?...wow....you must have gone to a government school controlled by the education wing of the democrat party...

that whole murdering 70 million people was them just sorting things out...right?   Had they tried...oh, I don't know, freedom and democracy...and not killing 70 million people ,you don't think that would have worked out better for the people of China?...of course you don't....you were probably at the top of your class in whatever government school controlled by the education wing of the democrat party that you went to, for you to believe that nonsense....

Perhaps if mao the murderer had butchered 70 million more people he would have really had the hearts of the people......unbelievable.....


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## 2aguy (Dec 7, 2014)

This is the point about communism...the left still has a warm spot for it...longs for it.....


I can't think of any sane person who would say that nazism was the cleanest, most effective way to lift Germany out of it's post war doldrums.....and they only murdered about 12 million people outside of the people killed in their war on the allies....and not be considered a monster, or at least an ignorant moron....

But the communist mao....he murders close to, or over 70 million people and that isn't even mentioned as a side note in that post


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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)




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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)

Billc said:


> This is the point about communism...the left still has a warm spot for it...longs for it.....
> 
> 
> I can't think of any sane person who would say that nazism was the cleanest, most effective way to lift Germany out of it's post war doldrums.....and they only murdered about 12 million people outside of the people killed in their war on the ally....and not be considered a monster, or at least an ignorant moron....
> ...


Communism is just another term for tyrants who have a group of tyrants that kill anything that opposes their will.  Stalin and Mao being perfect examples.  Who didn't care how many died to get power and control over the people in those countries.

Communism is BS...........it is about domination and control and as history has shown the slaughter of millions.


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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)

political prisoners used as organ donors.  currently going on.


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## 2aguy (Dec 7, 2014)

why is it that communism gets a pass.....communists murdered close to 100 million people, from around the world, and there are people today who still look to it fondly.....who openly March in democrat parades and rally's and aren't heckled and ridiculed out of the public square....they proudly carry signs calling themselves communists....and no one says boo to them, they wear the images of communist mass murderers on t-shirts and posters, and people just don't care....

Just look at post # 121....imagine if they had posted the same thing about nazi Germany....they would have been immediately called out......yet they say the same thing about an even more monsterous regime, but a communist one....and it is okay.....just unbelievable


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## eagle1462010 (Dec 7, 2014)

Billc said:


> why is it that communism gets a pass.....communists murdered close to 100 million people, from around the world, and there are people today who still look to it fondly.....who openly March in democrat parades and rally's and aren't heckled and ridiculed out of the public square....they proudly carry signs calling themselves communists....and no one says boo to them, they wear the images of communist mass murderers on t-shirts and posters, and people just don't care....
> 
> Just look at post # 121....imagine if they had posted the same thing about nazi Germany....they would have been immediately called out......yet they say the same thing about an even more monsterous regime, but a communist one....and it is okay.....just unbelievable


They refuse to see the reality of what happened in places like Russia and China....................They ignore it.............Are they purposely ignorant.................don't know..............but history shows what the communist really were and the horrors they put upon their people.


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## Mindlight (Dec 7, 2014)

Politico said:


> Again China cannot launch or land any planes on the one refurbished carrier they have.



Experts are estimating another 4 years before they develop an operational capacity. Depending on how demanding their standards are of course. However such a carrier will be of little use in their disputes with Japan or for Taiwan for example and is illustrative of more global ambitions for power projection.

Carrier Program Shows China Is Looking Beyond Taiwan AWIN content from Aviation Week

It is interesting they have made so much of their Carrier busting missile (CX-1) and yet think it worthwhile to develop a Carrier programme


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## Mindlight (Dec 7, 2014)

Billc said:


> why is it that communism gets a pass.....communists murdered close to 100 million people, from around the world, and there are people today who still look to it fondly.....who openly March in democrat parades and rally's and aren't heckled and ridiculed out of the public square....they proudly carry signs calling themselves communists....and no one says boo to them, they wear the images of communist mass murderers on t-shirts and posters, and people just don't care....
> 
> Just look at post # 121....imagine if they had posted the same thing about nazi Germany....they would have been immediately called out......yet they say the same thing about an even more monsterous regime, but a communist one....and it is okay.....just unbelievable



Not sure you read #121 correctly or in context.

To be very clear - Mao was a monster and communism is a lie and I am neither a Communist or a Democrat but I do not think people should blindly believe propaganda either.

BUT:
1) China is not ruled by a real Communist party today - whatever the rhetoric. Most of the top members of the Communist party are far richer than the American senate. It is a capitalist ruling elite with Chinese nationalistic sentiments.
2) The destruction of the old China has contributed to Chinas modern prosperity and peace. China before Communisms victory was torn by rival warlords , the playground of imperial powers like Britain pushing Opium or the Japanese raping and killing women and children e.g. Nanking.


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## Mindlight (Dec 7, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mindlight said:
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_The emperor of Japan is considered to be the divine descendant of Amaterasu Ōmikami and the highest Shinto priest.

Shinto Facts information pictures Encyclopedia.com articles about Shinto

The emperor of Japan, even today, claims direct decent from the Shintō Sun Goddess Amaterasu.

Shinto Deities in Japan Japanese Shinto-Buddhist Syncretic Deities_


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## Unkotare (Dec 7, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Unkotare said:
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Wow, your copy and paste skills are impressive. 

No one but you has delved into such off-topic details, dopey. Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 7, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Kevin_Kennedy said:
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Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.


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## Kevin_Kennedy (Dec 7, 2014)

Tom Sweetnam said:


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Well in my opinion this is the most dangerous conflict in the world at present. With the U.S. fully pledged to back Japan militarily this thing has all the necessary ingredients to spin out of control.


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## Vikrant (Dec 7, 2014)

Billc said:


> Mindlight said:
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I do not think Democrat Party has such program. But China does have program which is called Patriotic Education Camp. People who are caught expressing thoughts that are not approved by China's communist party are sent to this camp. It is not just the Patriotic Education Camp which is designed to brainwash Chinese folks, their regular curriculum in the school is just as potent when it comes to brainwashing. I learned about this while talking to Chinese folks about topics like Tibet or Japan. On the issue of Tibet, they do not seem to be aware of all the killings done by Chinese but on the issue of Japan, they were more than aware of all the atrocities committed by Japanese; to a point where they were ready to take revenge. This stuck to me odd that such a large number of Chinese folks have been brainwashed into thinking that vengeance is OK.


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## 2aguy (Dec 7, 2014)

> This stuck to me odd that such a large number of Chinese folks have been brainwashed into thinking that vengeance is OK.



This is one of the reasons the Japanese need to rearm....the Chinese have a long memory....


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## Mindlight (Dec 7, 2014)

> Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.



But America did not support Chiang Kai-Shek. The Soviets gave a  whole load of captured Jap weaponry to the Chinese Communists. If America truly valued Chiang Kai Shek as an ally how come they did not support him until it was too late. The Korean war could have been avoided with a little foresight which was clearly lacking in an America anxious for peace after the war and slightly resentful at the money it was forking out for a ruined world.  The plain fact is that America at the time did not trust Chiang Kai Shek and resented the fact that the money they did give seem to disappear to a corrupt swamp with out any accounting for what was done with it. He was a far from perfect ally!!!

So It is no good claiming China would have worked out for the better without the Commies when lack of American help at the key moments contributed to the success of the Communists in China and then cost the lives of all the Americans that subsequently died in Korea. If Mao did not have the hearts of the Chinese people how did he win? The Nationalists had all the advantages at the beginning of the civil war but their corruption, incompetence and failures against the Japanese meant that the Chinese had no real heart for them. It was a peoples war against an entrenched Nationalist party and in such a populous country this peoples war cost the lives of millions. The Americans did not understand here as they would also fail to understand in Vietnam. these were people fighting for their own homes and futures and though it cost them everything they won through in the end. It was not about having a superior economic system. The Chinese have since readopted capitalism. It was about restoring local sovereignty and pride and the conditions in which it was possible to make success happen.


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## Vikrant (Dec 7, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> > Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.
> 
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> 
> ...



Jap is a racist word. It is designed to insult Japanese folks. Its usage by you tells me that you hate Japanese folks. You can pretend to be something else but eventually you will give your game away. You have already started the process.


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## Unkotare (Dec 7, 2014)

Billc said:


> > This stuck to me odd that such a large number of Chinese folks have been brainwashed into thinking that vengeance is OK.
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the reasons the Japanese need to rearm....the Chinese have a long memory....




It's not the length of the memory, it's the willingness to hold a grudge forever.


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## Mindlight (Dec 8, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mindlight said:
> 
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> > Unkotare said:
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Dodge and dive


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## Mindlight (Dec 8, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> Mindlight said:
> 
> 
> > > Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.
> ...



Oh that is just plain ignorant not to mention PC to the point of blindness. 

I no more hate Japanese people with whom i enjoy happy working relationships than the Yank to whom i am married or the Frogs my mum hangs out with or my Hun Mother in law. If you are so distracted by labels then how can you handle the real people behind them. I do not put up with lies and rubbish nor flatter allies with lies to secure their ratings. Americans and Limeys like myself have nothing to fear from the truth and no desire to play culture bound games of semantics. Life is too short and people too full of themselves for that.

Or was this just a way of hiding the fact you did not have answer to the substance of what was said.


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## Vikrant (Dec 8, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Vikrant said:
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None of that shit excuses your racism. You need to learn that a two-bit racist person like yourself has no substance.


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## Unkotare (Dec 8, 2014)

Mindlight said:


> Unkotare said:
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> > Mindlight said:
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There is no need to dodge your ignorance and poor communication skills, nitwit.


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## Shourn (Dec 8, 2014)

Here China is progressing way ahead of India while Indian opposition pick up petty issues to derail the development of India


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## Vikrant (Dec 9, 2014)

After aircraft carriers, now China is loading its submarines with nuclear tipped ballistic missiles. 

---



> China is preparing to arm its stealthiest submarines with nuclear missiles that could reach the United States, cloaking its arsenal with the invisibility needed to retaliate in the event of an enemy strike.



China takes nuclear weapons undersea away from prying eyes


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## RKMBrown (Dec 9, 2014)

maybe we should surrender now


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