# Toyota Pulling the Plug on their All Electric Cars



## GHook93 (Sep 25, 2012)

I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution! 

Who Killed The Electric Car? Toyota Now Tries For That Role - Forbes


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## waltky (Oct 15, 2015)

Only hybrids and fuel cells, will be offered to radically reduce emissions...

*Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050*
_October 14, 2015 | Toyota, under ambitious environmental targets, is aiming to sell hardly any regular gasoline vehicles by 2050, only hybrids and fuel cells, to radically reduce emissions._


> The automaker promised to involve governments, affiliated companies and other "stakeholders" in its push to reduce average emissions from Toyota cars by 90 percent by about 2050, compared with 2010 levels.  Electric cars weren't part of their vision, outlined by top Toyota Motor Corp. officials at a Tokyo museum on Wednesday, striking a contrast with rivals such as Nissan Motor Co., which has banked on that zero-emissions technology.  Toyota's commitments come at a time when the auto industry has been shaken by a scandal at Germany's Volkswagen AG, in which it admitted it cheated on diesel emissions tests covering millions of cars.  Toyota projected its annual sales of fuel cell vehicles will reach more than 30,000 by about 2020, which is 10 times its projected figure for 2017.
> 
> Fuel cells run on hydrogen and are zero-emissions. Toyota's Mirai fuel cell went on sale late last year. Toyota has received 1,500 orders for the Mirai in Japan, and it just went on sale in the U.S. and Europe.  Annual sales of hybrid vehicles will reach 1.5 million and by 2020 Toyota would have sold 15 million hybrids, nearly twice what it has sold so far around the world, it said.  Hybrids switch back and forth between a gasoline engine and an electric motor to deliver an efficient ride.  The Toyota Prius, which went on sale in 1997, is the top-selling hybrid, with about 4 million sold globally so far. Toyota is promising to develop a hybrid version in every category, including usually gas-guzzling sport-utility vehicles, as well as luxury models.  "You may think 35 years is a long time," Senior Managing Officer Kiyotaka Ise told reporters. "But for an automaker to envision all combustion engines as gone is pretty extraordinary."
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> ...


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 15, 2015)

The  hybrid  we  should  be  building  is  series  hydraulic.  If  you  really  want  to  piss  off  big  oil  put  a  liquid nitogen sc motor  to  a  series  hydraulic or  a mazda rotory  zero emmission  hydrogen  or  a  gun engine series hydraulic or hot vapor cycle to series hydraulic.


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## Zander (Oct 15, 2015)

You mean we can't have our cars run on unicorn farts?


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 15, 2015)

cut  to  heart  of  matter
trains  get  400  mpg  per mile per ton. to  me  as  a  mechanic  that  means  a  car  weighing 1 ton should  get  close  to  400  mpg. THE  PROOF  1973  shell  oil  mpg contest  winner  374  mpg during  the  arab  oil  embargo . SHELL  OIL  had  the  answer  and  buried  it  for  second  time . The  first  time  technology  was  buried  was  1930's the  POGUE  carburetor  which  did  same  thing  in  the  1973  contest  that  it  did  in  1933  , which  was  good  enough  for  2nd  place. gasoiline  vapor  detonation  engines  are  very  fuel  efficient.


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 15, 2015)

Zander said:


> You mean we can't have our cars run on unicorn farts?


if  your  car  runs  on  gasoline  you  can run  it  on  butanol  or  p series . if  you  have  the  e85 software you  can  run  e85. it  will  run  on gasoline  made  from  natural  gas or  syngas . if  you  spend  a  lot  you can  convert  to  lpg or cng. or syngas. ammonia  is  a  bifuel conversion at  up  to  75% ammonia  to  25% gasoline.

if  diesel  then  is  it  old  dirty  diesel  or  clean  diesel  it  matters  far  more  than  public  knows.


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 16, 2015)

30 year chrysler mechanic said:


> cut  to  heart  of  matter
> trains  get  400  mpg  per mile per ton. to  me  as  a  mechanic  that  means  a  car  weighing 1 ton should  get  close  to  400  mpg. THE  PROOF  1973  shell  oil  mpg contest  winner  374  mpg during  the  arab  oil  embargo . SHELL  OIL  had  the  answer  and  buried  it  for  second  time . The  first  time  technology  was  buried  was  1930's the  POGUE  carburetor  which  did  same  thing  in  the  1973  contest  that  it  did  in  1933  , which  was  good  enough  for  2nd  place. gasoiline  vapor  detonation  engines  are  very  fuel  efficient.


lead  was  added  to  gasoline  to  stop  detonation ,gasoline vapor only  works  with unleaded fuel. what  was  happening  in 1973 catalytic convertors were  on  way  and  leaded  fuel  was  on  way  out. when  the  fuel became  available  the  technology  resurfaced. DO  NOT  TRY  TO  USE ON YOUR  CAR, SEVERE  ENGINE  DAMAGE  WILL  RESULT. DETONATION ENGINES  REQUIRE  LONG SKIRT  PISTONS  what  they  had  in  the  beginning  of  4 stroke  engine  age. piston slap and cylinder wear results from detonation  in  todays  engines.


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 16, 2015)

30 year chrysler mechanic said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > You mean we can't have our cars run on unicorn farts?
> ...


bio diesel  and  vegitable oils will  cause  rapid  particulate filter  clogging  and  ENGINE  OIL  DILUTION  which  results  in severe  engine  damage. in  clean  diesel  tech  engines.

old  dirty  diesels biodiesel  is  safe  and  will  run  on  vegitable  oil. a  local  farmer  grows  his  own sunflower seed and  presses the  oil himself  and  filters it through 2 micron filter  and  has  run  it  in  his  farm  tractors  for  years.

hdrd  is  clean  diesel  safe  at  100%  and is  made  from  same  feedstocks as  bio and  biomass diesel.


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## danielpalos (Oct 16, 2015)

i believe we merely need a fixed Standard for Infrastructure.


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## Manonthestreet (Oct 16, 2015)

Wonder how much service garage dollars figure into this.


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 16, 2015)

danielpalos said:


> i believe we merely need a fixed Standard for Infrastructure.





danielpalos said:


> i believe we merely need a fixed Standard for Infrastructure.


From  a  mechanics  point  of  view  and  historical  facts , IF   global  warming  is  real  , why  are  the  technologies  that  can  really  put  a  dent  in  it  kept  off  market. 20 lbs. of co2 per  gallon of  fuel  burned in  your  car. only  way  to reduce  that is  to  increase  mpg. every  engine  that  would  double  fuel  mileage  has  been  shelved  for  decades.  WHY   is  obama  silent  on  carbon neutral  fuels , high  mpg  engines , hydraulic hybrids , 38% efficient  solar  panels , 60% efficient  solar  thermal (jtec)
does  he  believe  what  he  says  or  not???
ONLY  xTL  fuels  can  be  carbon neutral so  why  are  we  not  building  these  like  crazy , because  they  can  also  use  any  fossile  fuel. 
we  need  a  set  goal  then  lets  see  how  to  get  there. 

solar  panels  mean individual  energy  independence.  to  be  free  or  remain  enslaved  to  utilities .


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 16, 2015)

Manonthestreet said:


> Wonder how much service garage dollars figure into this.


if  bio  diesel  trashes  your  engine  there  is  no  factory  warranty. chevy  ford and dodge  will  void  engine  warranty  if biodiesel  failure  is  detected. if  oil  smells  like  vinegar  the  only  reason  i  am  smelling  it is  because  your  engine  has  already  failed. then a  oil  sample  sent  for  testing will  confirm.

ethanol  has  destroyed millions  of 2  stroke  engines  and  oil  companies  not  responsible. bio  diesel  now  promises  to  do  same  thing  to  clean  diesel  engines.


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## mamooth (Oct 16, 2015)

Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.

Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

Efficiency wise, hydrogen powered vehicles are about one-third as efficient as electric vehicles. That's taking into account start-to-finish production and use of the hydrogen or electricity.

And there's no infrastructure for distributing hydrogen. If you want to refuel an electric car, you plug it in anywhere. It might not be a fast charge, but it will be a charge. Think of it like the internet. That started on phone lines, and gradually upgraded. The electric grid and electric cars will go the same way. 

Hydrogen? A fairly painless gradual improvement isn't possible, because there's nothing to start with. If you want to refuel a hydrogen vehicle, you have to take it to a specialized refueling center, which won't exist in most areas.


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## Old Rocks (Oct 18, 2015)

Hydrogen makes sense from the corporate standpoint. You are not likely to make that gas at home. EV's have that drawback from the corporate standpoint, you can economically and easily make your own fuel at home. Also, your car then becomes another power backup for your home in emergencies. And if you have a large storage battery, the 100 kw range, at home, you can easily recharge your car while you are sleeping. This is home owner independence from the energy corporations. Not something the corporations think is a good thing.


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## danielpalos (Oct 18, 2015)

Manonthestreet said:


> Wonder how much service garage dollars figure into this.


i believe the public sector could absorb those costs with any routine Infrastructure upgrades as a Standard fixed by the general government for the Union.


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## danielpalos (Oct 18, 2015)

30 year chrysler mechanic said:


> danielpalos said:
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> > i believe we merely need a fixed Standard for Infrastructure.
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I believe infrastructure could be "pioneered" by the public sector, in the public domain.


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## Manonthestreet (Oct 18, 2015)

danielpalos said:


> Manonthestreet said:
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Talking about scheduled oil changes and stuff like that.....stuff an electric car doesnt need


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## danielpalos (Oct 18, 2015)

Manonthestreet said:


> danielpalos said:
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i am referring to charging station technologies or fuel cell changing technologies.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 20, 2015)

GHook93 said:


> I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution!
> 
> Who Killed The Electric Car? Toyota Now Tries For That Role - Forbes



CEO of Chrysler-Fiat came out last year and said on the Financial channels -- "PLEASE -- don't buy my electric car. We lose a ton of money on every one of them".. He beat Toyota to it.. 

But don't despair. The BETTER EV is in the wings.  EVERY Korean car company, Kia, Hundai, etc -- skipped out of the plug-in car concept to make the leap to hydrogen fuel cells. And that addresses the major problems of range, fueling time, grid expansion expenses and a lot of others. Expect them to start growing sales next year..


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## flacaltenn (Oct 20, 2015)

mamooth said:


> Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.
> 
> Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point
> 
> ...



All Bullshit as expected. There is not a lot of difference between the substantial existing network of  NAT GAS fueling stations and a hydrogen fueling station. Europe already has a "Hydrogen Highway" in place. And this BS about efficiency is totally unfounded. Fuel Cells are HIGHLY efficient and the rest of the EV car design is the same as for a plug-in..

The inefficiencies are in trying to move 30% more demand to an already INEFFICIENT and ANTIQUATED electric grid.. And most likely in your head. Where inefficiencies are already legend..


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## mamooth (Oct 20, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> All Bullshit as expected. There is not a lot of difference between the substantial existing network of  NAT GAS fueling stations and a hydrogen fueling station.



I think one network existing and one network not existing is a rather substantial difference. But then, I'm part of the reality-based community, as opposed to your fantasy-based community.

The natural gas fueling network isn't really for travelers. It's almost entirely used locally by buses and fleet vehicles. And that natural gas network grew incrementally out of the preexisting natural gas infrastructure. In contrast, there is no preexisting hydrogen infrastructure, and there's no financial incentive to make one.



> Europe already has a "Hydrogen Highway" in place.



Which is basically vaporware, a few hundred stations for all of Europe.



> And this BS about efficiency is totally unfounded. Fuel Cells are HIGHLY efficient and the rest of the EV car design is the same as for a plug-in..



One system uses electricity directly.

One system uses electricity to make hydrogen, hauls the hydrogen around, then uses a fuel cell to turn hydrogen back into electricity.

Those who possess any engineering common sense would recognize which is more efficient.

Now, you could offer the defense that hydrogen made from natural gas requires less electricity, but that's essentially turning the hydrogen vehicle into another type of fossil fuel machine, and makes this into an apples to oranges comparison.



> The inefficiencies are in trying to move 30% more demand to an already INEFFICIENT and ANTIQUATED electric grid..



Handwaving and bad logic.

Grid losses are around 6%. That's peanuts compared to the other losses of the hydrogen system.

And the same grid has to supply the power to make the hydrogen, so that same loss factors into the fuel cell vehicles as well.


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## danielpalos (Oct 20, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> GHook93 said:
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> > I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution!
> ...


Infrastructure upgrades must be considered a provision of the general welfare and have greater priority than public policies which deny and disparage Individual Liberty.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 20, 2015)

mamooth said:


> flacaltenn said:
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> > All Bullshit as expected. There is not a lot of difference between the substantial existing network of  NAT GAS fueling stations and a hydrogen fueling station.
> ...



Nope .. Narrow thinking.. A hydrogen fuel infrastructure is the best thing to ever happen to sketchy solar and wind alternatives. Because using these OFF-GRID for FREE (as the eco-left describes it) would cause a RUSH to businesses wanting to build that infrastructure. Solves the issues with wind and solar as they now have a valuable COMMODITY ITEM to store the sketchy energy that can't be economically stored as electricity..

And of course you've never looked at a map for the European Hydrogen Hiway. It's really not a bad start.
Vaporware eh? NO --- Elan Musk deals in vaporware..








With 400 to 500 mile ranges --- that service network is ALREADY workable.
But of COURSE -- After $Bills in subsidies ---- it will look a lot better -- won't it?

Also not a bad start in the US..







Already several models of Hydrogen EVs on the road here and in Europe. About 4 more PRODUCTION versions ready by end of 2016..


You know anyone who WOULDN'T want to take water and FREE electric power and make a commodity that they can sell for BIG $$$??

Oh yeah -- probably Mammy......


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## flacaltenn (Oct 20, 2015)

danielpalos said:


> flacaltenn said:
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What the funk does "general welfare" and "individual liberty" have to do with a CHOICE of driving a type of electric vehicle. You think we all vote on what's for dinner every night?  Did I get to vote or weigh in on the $$$$BILLS wasted on so-called "alternate energy" ????


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## danielpalos (Oct 20, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> danielpalos said:
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i am referring to infrastructure upgrades that can accommodate new technologies on a plug and play basis for the private sector.


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## Wyatt earp (Oct 20, 2015)

mamooth said:


> Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.
> 
> Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point
> 
> ...



I had to check your claim on hydrogen cars...yea you are right.



Elon Musk Is Right: Hydrogen Is ‘An Incredibly Dumb’ Car Fuel


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## danielpalos (Oct 20, 2015)

what about smart roads that can work like slot cars for vehicles?  

i believe maglev technologies could be applied to personal and commercial conveyances.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 20, 2015)

danielpalos said:


> flacaltenn said:
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Maybe I misread your comment. Actually a LOT of infrastructure is VOLUNTARILY provided. Which would be my preferred way of letting individuals risk capital to make something like this happen. THAT approach is self-monitoring and self-regulating..


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## flacaltenn (Oct 20, 2015)

bear513 said:


> mamooth said:
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> > Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.
> ...



The comparison there is extremely rigged. Because the BatteryEV they are comparing to in efficiency --- is the electric efficiency at the wall socket. NOT the efficencies of the generator, the grid, or the MINING or REFINING of the fuel that drives the generator. You have to be "incredibly stupid" to believe electricity just comes over some wires. 

Granted -- if you made a Hydrogen process relying on the SAME "from the wall-plug power" --- It would be stupid. 

But it's NOT stupid if you use OFF-GRID wind and solar power. Don't care if it only works during the day (for solar) or wind is variable or sketchy. You store what you get. Here's the dept of energy stating so.. OR use ANOTHER of several methods to produce it. 

*There are a number of ways to produce hydrogen:
*

*Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification: Synthesis gas, a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a small amount of carbon dioxide, is created by reacting natural gas with high-temperature steam. The carbon monoxide is reacted with water to produce additional hydrogen. This method is the cheapest, most efficient, and most common for producing hydrogen. Natural gas reforming using steam accounts for the majority of hydrogen produced in the United States annually.

A synthesis gas can also be created by reacting coal or biomass with high-temperature steam and oxygen in a pressurized gasifier and converted into gaseous components—a process called gasification. The resulting synthesis gas contains hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which is reacted with steam to produce more hydrogen.
*
*Electrolysis: An electric current splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. If the electricity is from renewable sources, such as solar or wind, the resulting hydrogen will be considered renewable as well, and have numerous emissions benefits. Because renewable electricity may be available when it is not needed on the grid, power-to-gas projects are taking off. These projects use excess renewable electricity and make hydrogen through electrolysis. These renewable projects would have the potential to become even more economical if the hydrogen was sold to the fuel cell vehicle market.
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*Renewable Liquid Reforming: Renewable liquid fuels, such as ethanol, are reacted with high-temperature steam to produce hydrogen near the point of end use.
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*Fermentation: Biomass is converted into sugar-rich feedstocks that can be fermented to produce hydrogen.
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*A number of hydrogen production methods are in development:
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*High-Temperature Water Splitting: High temperatures generated by solar concentrators or nuclear reactors drive chemical reactions that split water to produce hydrogen.
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*Photobiological Water Splitting: Microbes, such as green algae, consume water in the presence of sunlight, producing hydrogen as a byproduct.
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*Photoelectrochemical Water Splitting: Photoelectrochemical systems produce hydrogen from water using special semiconductors and energy from sunlight.
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*The major hydrogen-producing states are California, Louisiana, and Texas. Almost all of the hydrogen produced in the United States is used for refining petroleum, treating metals, producing fertilizer, and processing foods.
*
I find it very Musk-like that he would ignore all of the OTHER WAYS to make hydrogen in order to sell HIS vision of an EV.   Getting hydrogen from fossil fuels with steam extraction is likely a much cleaner process than combusting them.


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## OnePercenter (Oct 20, 2015)

Toyota got their ass kicked by Tesla in the all-electric market, and Volvo in the hybrid market.


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## danielpalos (Oct 20, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> danielpalos said:
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why would that be better than fixed Standards for a State or the Union?


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## danielpalos (Oct 20, 2015)

bear513 said:


> mamooth said:
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> > Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.
> ...


advances in fuel cell technologies could make this a moot point.


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 28, 2015)

OnePercenter said:


> Toyota got their ass kicked by Tesla in the all-electric market, and Volvo in the hybrid market.


fuel cell vehicle = cars for rich only.  used before to kill electric vehicles. remember ev1 or chrysler electric caravan or ford's electric van. they were  all  lease  vehicles  and  all  were  crushed at same time. at that  time gm said they  could have put a fuel cell vehicle on road at price of 1 million a copy. on vehicle reformers did not work.they trashed the fuel cells in very short time. chrysler wasted millions testing reformers after electric utilities had already concluded reformers  were worthless. toyota's batterry  maker  was purchaced by cheveron  and the ev1 battery was purchased by texico to kill  electric vehicles and it worked.
ev1 battery ovionic  then battery maker was sued for speaking out.


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## danielpalos (Oct 28, 2015)

30 year chrysler mechanic said:


> OnePercenter said:
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cost will go down eventually as advances in technologies enable better products at lower cost.


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## Old Rocks (Oct 28, 2015)

I have heard about the wonders of fuel cell vehicles just about as long as that of hydrogen fusion. Neither have lived up to the hype. However, we have a good many EV's now, and more on the way. And some of the are admirable vehicles, combining the best of an advanced luxury car with the power and speed of a high end sports vehicle.

What I find passingly strange is that the oh-so patriotic 'Conservatives' just cannot say enough bad about a vehicle created and built right here on in the US of A. A vehicle that flat out beats luxury sedans costing 5 times as much in style and performance. And they are constantly cheering for the Tesla to fail. What a bunch of sour grape bastards.


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## danielpalos (Oct 28, 2015)

Old Rocks said:


> I have heard about the wonders of fuel cell vehicles just about as long as that of hydrogen fusion. Neither have lived up to the hype. However, we have a good many EV's now, and more on the way. And some of the are admirable vehicles, combining the best of an advanced luxury car with the power and speed of a high end sports vehicle.
> 
> What I find passingly strange is that the oh-so patriotic 'Conservatives' just cannot say enough bad about a vehicle created and built right here on in the US of A. A vehicle that flat out beats luxury sedans costing 5 times as much in style and performance. And they are constantly cheering for the Tesla to fail. What a bunch of sour grape bastards.


not sure why; you can get 8gb of ram for less than twenty dollars on eBay.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 28, 2015)

Old Rocks said:


> I have heard about the wonders of fuel cell vehicles just about as long as that of hydrogen fusion. Neither have lived up to the hype. However, we have a good many EV's now, and more on the way. And some of the are admirable vehicles, combining the best of an advanced luxury car with the power and speed of a high end sports vehicle.
> 
> What I find passingly strange is that the oh-so patriotic 'Conservatives' just cannot say enough bad about a vehicle created and built right here on in the US of A. A vehicle that flat out beats luxury sedans costing 5 times as much in style and performance. And they are constantly cheering for the Tesla to fail. What a bunch of sour grape bastards.



Fuel cells are what took the Apollo mission to the moon and back and that was in the 60s. Already present in buses, trucks using nat gas instead of hydrogen. And there are already 3 or 4 PRODUCTION model cars with FCs as their source of power.
Main Post Office in Anchorage runs off FCs powered by nat gas.



You just haven't been paying attention.


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## Old Rocks (Oct 28, 2015)

3 or 4 production cars as opposed to how many hybrids and EV's?


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## 30 year chrysler mechanic (Oct 29, 2015)

danielpalos said:


> 30 year chrysler mechanic said:
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> > OnePercenter said:
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agreed. thin film proton exchange membranes have bought cost of fuel cells down since ev1 was killed. what has not changed is that fuel  cell and battery electrics are cars for rich. the economics is same today as was 100 years ago by 1 baker electric or 3 model t fords. that is what killed electric car. THERE IS A  NICH  MARKET  and electrics and fc vehicles should be built to supply  that  demand.


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## danielpalos (Oct 29, 2015)

30 year chrysler mechanic said:


> danielpalos said:
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I believe one niche market is the postal service, urban box fleets.


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