# i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..



## peacefan

i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
...
After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
...
and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.
.. ..


it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.

and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).

but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers, 
combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.

there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.

all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.
& wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!

IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.

i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
and i know the same is true in the USA.
if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today). 

i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother, to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").

and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip, and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine. 

----------------------------------------------------
[1] for which i had suggested that Putin would back down and build a trainline from that naval base in Sebastopol (Crimea) straight East and then North into actual Russian territories, on usmessageboard.com no less


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## JoeB131

I think you are babbling here, buddy. 

The thing is, Russia did have VALID disputes with Ukraine about the Donbass, Crimea, Tariffs on gas supplies, and NATO membership.  

But invading was completely unjustified.  

Putin's hope was to quickly topple the Zelensky government and set terms on these issues. 

Instead, he's gotten bogged down in a war with no end in sight.


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## Dekster

I have called Ukraine Russia Lite for a reason.  We are supporting them to taunt Putin and keep the Cold War going.   Biden pretty much only knew the cold war for most of his life and is determined to create another one before he dies.  Plus stirring up crap with Russia distracts from all his other woes domestically and over seas.


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## 1srelluc

I could give a shit what Little and Great Russia do to each other.....Never get involved with domestic disputes.


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## Baron

peacefan said:


> i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
> ...
> After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
> ...
> and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
> you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
> NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
> Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
> NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
> AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.
> .. ..
> 
> 
> it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.
> 
> and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).
> 
> but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers,
> combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
> means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.
> 
> there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
> and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.
> 
> all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.
> & wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!
> 
> IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
> i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
> who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.
> 
> i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
> i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
> and i know the same is true in the USA.
> if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
> i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today).
> 
> i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
> they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother, to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").
> 
> and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip, and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> [1] for which i had suggested that Putin would back down and build a trainline from that naval base in Sebastopol (Crimea) straight East and then North into actual Russian territories, on usmessageboard.com no less




*In the VERY VERY VERY Best case for Ukraine Russia accepts including Novorossija into Russia only.*
*As additional condition NATO shall turn back to borders of 1991

As I said it's the best solution*






*The very possible solution is ALL Ukraine becomes a part of Russia
The solution is very probably*

*The worst outcome is WWIII and nuclear desert on Earth*


----------



## JoeB131

Baron said:


> *The very possible solution is ALL Ukraine becomes a part of Russia
> The solution is very probably*
> 
> *The worst outcome is WWIII and nuclear desert on Earth*



The best solution would be Russians realizing Putin is kind of a dick, overthrowing him, returning to Democracy, and politely apologizing to the rest of the world.


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## Dragonlady

Baron said:


> *In the VERY VERY VERY Best case for Ukraine Russia accepts including Novorossija into Russia only.*
> *As additional condition NATO shall turn back to borders of 1991
> 
> As I said it's the best solution*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The very possible solution is ALL Ukraine becomes a part of Russia
> The solution is very probably*
> 
> *The worst outcome is WWIII and nuclear desert on Earth*



Your very possible solution is NEVER going to happen.  The Ukrainian people will NEVER submit at this point.


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## ESay

The Korean scenario. The warring sides stop fighting without formally recognizing each other's gains.

Sanctions against Russia remain in place. NATO expands its budget, rearms and strengthens the eastern flank. 

A military union between Poland and Ukraine that will mean a common military supplies and production, common training, setting up a kind of the Joint Military Committee, etc.

European integration of Ukraine with joining the European Free Trade Association.


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## krichton

NATO and the EU are guilty of crimes against humanity for their role in Ukraine? LMAO!  NATO countries don't want to end up like Ukraine.  They don't want an expansion of this war into Moldova and other EU countries that could destabilize the whole of Europe.  That's why they're supplying weapons. They're not doing it for leverage over Ukraines government.  What on Earth are you talking about?!   

Russia has zero rights to Ukraine's grain, zero.


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## krichton

ESay said:


> The Korean scenario. The warring sides stop fighting without formally recognizing each other's gains.
> 
> Sanctions against Russia remain in place. NATO expands its budget, rearms and strengthens the eastern flank.
> 
> A military union between Poland and Ukraine that will mean a common military supplies and production, common training, setting up a kind of the Joint Military Committee, etc.
> 
> European integration of Ukraine with joining the European Free Trade Association.




If Russia stops fighting, Ukraine will simply blow up all their remaining military in their country, until Russia leaves.


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## Litwin

Baron said:


> *In the VERY VERY VERY...*


ivan, why did you post your wet dreams here ? yes we know your pans are wet always old ded 


the reality :'


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## Litwin

krichton said:


> Ukraine will simply blow up all their remaining military in their country, until Russia leaves.


+1


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## toomuchtime_

Imperialism has always been a core value of Russian culture, whether under the Czars, the Communists or under Putin's fascist government, and there is no reason to think that will change in the foreseeable future, so no ceasefire, truce of peace treaty signed by Russia can be trusted: as long as Russia believes it has the power to expand to the west, it will try to. 

 This being so, the very best path forward that can be hoped for is to use increasing battlefield losses and crushing economic sanctions to so weaken the Russian economy and so disrupt the political system that the Russian leadership realizes that imperialist wars are simply not feasible, and since imperialism will remain a core value of Russian culture, Russia must be kept in this weakened state for the foreseeable future.  The only alternative to this is continued war, mostly in Ukraine, but beyond Ukraine if the West falters in its support of Ukraine.


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## ESay

krichton said:


> If Russia stops fighting, Ukraine will simply blow up all their remaining military in their country, until Russia leaves.


To some extent yes. And the Kherson area is the first target in this regard. But I dare to assume it will take some time for their leaving.


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## AntonToo

Dekster said:


> I have called Ukraine Russia Lite for a reason.  We are supporting them to taunt Putin and keep the Cold War going.   Biden pretty much only knew the cold war for most of his life and is determined to create another one before he dies.  Plus stirring up crap with Russia distracts from all his other woes domestically and over seas.


Bullcrap, we have consistently supported Ukraine first and foremost because THEY ASK FOR IT and are committed to democratic, open governing reforms.

We’d support Russia too if it ever wanted to go down that road again, instead of repression, corruption and imperialistic authoritarianism it has turned to under Putin’s last 15 years


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## Ringo




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## JoeB131

Ringo said:


>



Okay, problem here is that while I LOVE Roger's music, and think he's right on a lot of things... you have to remember the thing that guides his art and his politics. 

In 1944, his father was killed at Anzio, and he grew up a war orphan.  That makes him against ALL War on principle.  Understandable, noble sentiment, but not always practical.

The point is, I would agree in principle that we COULD have avoided this war by implementing the Minsk agreement, once Putin invaded, that kind of went off the table.

I also think at least part of this is the David Gilmour and Nick Mason released that pro-Ukraine song, and they still have a 40 year grudge match going on since Pink Floyd broke up.


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## Dekster

AntonToo said:


> Bullcrap, we have consistently supported Ukraine first and foremost because THEY ASK FOR IT and are committed to democratic, open governing reforms.
> 
> We’d support Russia too if it ever wanted to go down that road again, instead of repression, corruption and imperialistic authoritarianism it has turned to under Putin’s last 15 years


LOL.  We have consistently thrown money at Ukraine to taunt Russia.  No more, no less.


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## Flash

peacefan said:


> NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.


NATO is a defensive military alliance.

EU is an Economic alliance.

Peaceful countries have nothing to fear from either one.


----------



## toobfreak

peacefan said:


> i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.



Put simply, just as the democrats have tried to vilify Trump here as their scapegoat to justify and distract from their own power grab, they are now doing with Putin as well making him a scapegoat to a war they caused in order to cover for their own globalist power agenda.


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## Ringo

The US, West disillusioned over ‘absolute security’ in recent 6 months: Global Times editorial - Global Times
					






					www.globaltimes.cn


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## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Bullcrap, we have consistently supported Ukraine first and foremost because THEY ASK FOR IT and are committed to democratic, open governing reforms.
> 
> We’d support Russia too if it ever wanted to go down that road again, instead of repression, corruption and imperialistic authoritarianism it has turned to under Putin’s last 15 years


On the bright side our Gov't has stolen about $60 billion from our citizens to spend on a war they provoked and want to keep going as long as possible. Glad you’re happy about this.


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## AntonToo

gipper said:


> On the bright side our Gov't has stolen about $60 billion from our citizens to spend on a war they provoked


Yep, that  braindead propaganda again. *Putin started the war, no one else.*

He thinks Ukrane is just a Russian province and can't stand them moving on to become a westernized democracy. Their success would reflect the failure of his leadership in Russia and the authoritarian stagnation that he has steered his country into.

You say you are an American, but you sound like a damn Russian poodle.


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## AntonToo

Dekster said:


> LOL.  We have consistently thrown money at Ukraine to taunt Russia.  No more, no less.


Nonsense, we spend a lot of money in a lot of coutries supporting our values, and NO, confrontation with Russia is not what we look for. 

God knows we try hard to work with them and their Putler, but we aren't going to just leave their acts of agression unchecked.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/bush-saw-putins-soul-obama-wants-to-appeal-to-his-brain/2015/12/01/264f0c7c-984b-11e5-8917-653b65c809eb_story.html


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## AntonToo

toobfreak said:


> Put simply, just as the democrats have tried to vilify Trump here as their scapegoat to justify and distract from their own power grab, they are now doing with Putin as well making him a scapegoat to a war they caused in order to cover for their own globalist power agenda.


Simply stupid is what that is. Conspiracy theory, on top of conspiracy theory, on top of idiocy.


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## AntonToo

peacefan said:


> i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.


When did NATO and EU drop bombs on Ukraine and annex it's lands. What the fuck are you even talking about?


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## ESay

AntonToo said:


> When did NATO and EU drop bombs on Ukraine and annex it's lands. What the fuck are you even talking about?


You need to understand the mindset of this crowd. The US and EU provoked this war by supporting the 'Nazi coup' back in 2014 and trying to drag Ukraine into NATO. 

The brightest will mention biolabs and nuclear weapons.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, that  braindead propaganda again. *Putin started the war, no one else.*
> 
> He thinks Ukrane is just a Russian province and can't stand them moving on to become a westernized democracy. Their success would reflect the failure of his leadership in Russia and the authoritarian stagnation that he has steered his country into.
> 
> You say you are an American, but you sound like a damn Russian poodle.


You clearly know nothing about Ukraine and Russia, and freely expose your ignorance.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You clearly know nothing about Ukraine and Russia, and freely expose your ignorance.


Yep, nothing. I was only born in Russia, spent many summers in Ukraine and kept up with the politics there.

How can I possibly know more than whatever some Russian propaganda shill stuffed into your empty head?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, nothing. I was only born in Russia, spent many summers in Ukraine and kept up with the politics there.
> 
> How can I possibly know more than whatever some Russian propaganda shill stuffed into your empty head?


Yeah see?  Anyone who disagrees with your POV is Russian propaganda. Now you know that’s bs.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Yeah see?  Anyone who disagrees with your POV is Russian propaganda. Now you know that’s bs.


You should scale down your arrogance a little bit and get to hear what people who know the situation on the ground think. As a whole, you really seem to repeat Russian propaganda.


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## CrusaderFrank

JoeB131 said:


> The best solution would be Russians realizing Putin is kind of a dick, overthrowing him, returning to Democracy, and politely apologizing to the rest of the world.


You mean like Ukrainian "democracy"?


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## CrusaderFrank

AntonToo said:


> Yep, nothing. I was only born in Russia, spent many summers in Ukraine and kept up with the politics there.
> 
> How can I possibly know more than whatever some Russian propaganda shill stuffed into your empty head?


Tell us more about Ukrainian democracy


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## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> Yep, nothing. I was only born in Russia, spent many summers in Ukraine and kept up with the politics there.
> 
> How can I possibly know more than whatever some Russian propaganda shill stuffed into your empty head?


In addition to being a moron, you're also a stinking vlasovets. It's good to know.


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## gipper

ESay said:


> You should scale down your arrogance a little bit and get to hear what people who know the situation on the ground think. As a whole, you really seem to repeat Russian propaganda.


I’m not the arrogant one. I haven’t claimed everything that opposes my POV is propaganda. 

Can you prove I spout Russian propaganda?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Yeah see?  Anyone who disagrees with your POV is Russian propaganda. Now you know that’s bs.



Nope! It's anyone who posts same silly nonsense that Russian propagandists are pushing day in and out on Putin Vision is obviously drinking from the same well.


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## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> In addition to being a moron, you're also a stinking vlasovets. It's good to know.



Gipper, do you at least know that Ringo here is a full on Russian propaganda shill? 

I'm just trying to figure out how clueless you are.


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## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Nope! It's anyone who posts same silly nonsense that Russian propagandists are pushing day in and out on Putin Vision is obviously drinking from the same well.


Yes. I’m glad you admit you’re a fool. 

Anyone who posts anything opposing the establishment’s POV on the Ukraine War, is a Russian propagandist. I get it.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> I’m not the arrogant one. I haven’t claimed everything that opposes my POV is propaganda.
> 
> Can you prove I spout Russian propaganda?


I don't think 'spout' is a right word. But you are somewhat in line with it.

One of the main examples is the cause of the war. You blame the US and NATO for provoking Russia. That is not exactly true.

Read some history of these lands and people living there to grasp what is going on. And history not from 2014 or 1991, but much earlier. Read about the Ukrainian revolution of 1918-1921, about the period that is called the Ruin and so on.

In 1918 there wasn't NATO and 'American biolabs' but that didn't prevent the Russians from ruining newly formed Ukrainian state. 

The main cause of the war is the Russians from all political spectrum reject the right of Ukrainians to exist as a separate nation. They follow the same policy of 'gathering Russian lands' set up by Ivan III back in 1500s, no matter how absurd and out-of-date it is now.


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## gipper

ESay said:


> I don't think 'spout' is a right word. But you are somewhat in line with it.
> 
> One of the main examples is the cause of the war. You blame the US and NATO for provoking Russia. That is not exactly true.
> 
> Read some history of these lands and people living there to grasp what is going on. And history not from 2014 or 1991, but much earlier. Read about the Ukrainian revolution of 1918-1921, about the period that is called the Ruin and so on.
> 
> In 1918 there wasn't NATO and 'American biolabs' but that didn't prevent the Russians from ruining newly formed Ukrainian state.
> 
> The main cause of the war is the Russians from all political spectrum reject the right of Ukrainians to exist as a separate nation. They follow the same policy of 'gathering Russian lands' set up by Ivan III back in 1500s, no matter how absurd and out-of-date it is now.


Yes it is true. NATO and the US in fact, did provoke this war. Saying otherwise is foolish and reveals your lack of knowledge. 

Your main cause is absurd. Ukraine has existed as a sovereign nation since the fall of the USSR. Just as all the other former Soviet republics have. Does Russia want Ukraine to be an ally?  Of course, just as we want nations bordering our country to be allies.


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## Redfish

Let Putin have the corrupt Ukraine,  it means nothing to us.  But the Biden family would lose its Ukrainian bribe money and that's really why we are supporting Ukraine.


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## ESay

gipper said:


> Yes it is true. NATO and the US in fact, did provoke this war. Saying otherwise is foolish and reveals your lack of knowledge.
> 
> Your main cause is absurd. Ukraine has existed as a sovereign nation since the fall of the USSR. Just as all the other former Soviet republics have. Does Russia want Ukraine to be an ally?  Of course, just as we want nations bordering our country to be allies.


What is really foolish and absurd is trying to understand European events using a 30 years time span. That makes you highly uninformed and gullible.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> What is really foolish and absurd is trying to understand European events using a 30 years time span. That makes you highly uninformed and gullible.


Oh really?  We need to go back hundreds of years to understand, is that right?  Okay tell me how long Ukraine has existed as a sovereign nation since the time of Christ?


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## ESay

gipper said:


> Oh really?  We need to go back hundreds of years to understand, is that right?  Okay tell me how long Ukraine has existed as a sovereign nation since the time of Christ?


Damn it. Are you intentionally draging this discussion on a kindergarten level or you really are there? 

The history of a nation doesn't start at the point when it becomes a 'sovereign' nation. What a nonsense.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Damn it. Are you intentionally draging this discussion on a kindergarten level or you really are there?
> 
> The history of a nation doesn't start at the point when it becomes a 'sovereign' nation. What a nonsense.


Oh so tell me where we should start?


----------



## Ringo

ESay said:


> In 1918 there wasn't NATO and 'American biolabs' but that didn't prevent the Russians from ruining newly formed Ukrainian state.


Which state? Until the end of 1918, most of Ukraine was under German occupation with the puppet regime of hetman Skoropadsky. After that, there was lot of states, changing with kaleidoscopic speed. Maybe you mean the Krivoy Rog-Donetsk Republic? Or the anarchist republic of Makhno?


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## ESay

gipper said:


> Oh so tell me where we should start?


Actually, I already mentioned that above. Better so, to start with the ancient Rus state. To see the picture of East Slavic people's history in full.

 But I advise you not to do so. Why put in the head meaningless stuff that will have no use in your life? We have what we have now. Russia wanting to have friendly states in their underbelly, and the states that don't want to be too 'friendly'. 

That all doesn't matter. You know what matters the most? The current political developments in the US. The US disintegration or policy of isolationism (I don't know how real it is) will leave Russia unchecked and free to all deeds it wants.


----------



## ESay

Ringo said:


> Which state? Until the end of 1918, most of Ukraine was under German occupation with the puppet regime of hetman Skoropadsky. After that, there was lot of states, changing with kaleidoscopic speed. Maybe you mean the Krivoy Rog-Donetsk Republic? Or the anarchist republic of Makhno?


Not only that. UNR, ZUNR, Directorial, Kuban People Republic.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Yes. I’m glad you admit you’re a fool.
> 
> Anyone who posts anything opposing the establishment’s POV on the Ukraine War, is a Russian propagandist. I get it.



Wtf? Pure stupidity


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> You obviously don't get it.


No!  I get it.

It’s an old tactic war loving Statists are duped by the establishment into employing in every war.


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## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> Let Putin have the corrupt Ukraine,  it means nothing to us.  But the Biden family would lose its Ukrainian bribe money and that's really why we are supporting Ukraine.


It means nothing to you maybe but bi-partisan majority of Americans disagree and support helping Ukrainians have their own country, because they believe Ukranians share our democratic values.


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## BackAgain

peacefan said:


> i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.
> 
> 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia
> ...
> After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
> ...
> and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
> you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
> NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
> Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
> NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
> AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.
> .. ..
> 
> 
> it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.
> 
> and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).
> 
> but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers,
> combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
> means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.
> 
> there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
> and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.
> 
> all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.
> & wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!
> 
> IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
> i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
> who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.
> 
> i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
> i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
> and i know the same is true in the USA.
> if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
> i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today).
> 
> i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
> they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother, to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").
> 
> and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip, and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> [1] for which i had suggested that Putin would back down and build a trainline from that naval base in Sebastopol (Crimea) straight East and then North into actual Russian territories, on usmessageboard.com no less


Or let’s be correct and more concise.


Did Russia invade Ukraine?  Yes.
Did Ukraine invade Russia?  No.
When Russia initiated the military action against Ukraine, was Ukraine a sovereign nation? Yes.
Is Russia to blame?  Obviously.
*Bonus questions*:


Do Ukraine and Russia have an historic backstory explaining (not justifying) Putin’s behavior? Sure.
Is Zelensky necessarily a damn Saint? Nope.
Should the NATO nations (and the USA, in particular) be militarily involved in this war?  In one sense; no. It’s not our fight.  But in another sense; maybe. Failure to act earlier against Hitler was a poor choice. Maybe we don’t need to repeat mistakes? 
My view is that Russia’s behavior is unacceptable. But I nevertheless recognize that a decision not to entangle ourselves in what might grow into a massive WWIII nuclear war has some merit.


----------



## gipper

BackAgain said:


> Or let’s be correct and more concise.
> 
> 
> Did Russia invade Ukraine?  Yes.
> Did Ukraine invade Russia?  No.
> When Russia initiated the military action against Ukraine, was Ukraine a sovereign nation? Yes.
> Is Russia to blame?  Obviously.



Did the US invade (name that country)? Yes
Did (name that country) invade the US? No
When US initiated the military action against (name that country), was that country a sovereign nation? Yes
Is US to blame? Obviously 
No doubt you disagree, which means you’re a hypocrite and a statist dupe.


----------



## BackAgain

gipper said:


> Did the US invade (name that country)? Yes
> Did (name that country) invade the US? No
> When US initiated the military action against (name that country), was that country a sovereign nation? Yes
> Is US to blame? Obviously
> No doubt you disagree, which means you’re a hypocrite and a statist dupe.


My question didn’t assume mindless hypotheticals. 

And your point is of course pointless anyway. Let’s see why. Let’s use Vietnam as an example to fill in your idiotic blanks. 
We did invade Vietnam. They obviously hadn’t invaded us. Vietnam was a sovereign nation at the time. So obviously, we were to blame for our decision and action of going into fight that “police action” barring other factors. 

But let’s go further. Let’s say for the sake of the discussion that no other factors justified our military action.  And, now?

Can we undo history?  Nope. But can we potentially help stop Russia from the wrong that it IS NOW COMMITTING?  Yes. 

But your pointless is otherwise still useless. 👍


----------



## AntonToo

CrusaderFrank said:


> Tell us more about Ukrainian democracy


Ukraine has been making progress on free and fair elections, constitutionally guaranteed rights, independent judiciary and other vertical separation of powers, freedom of speech and media independence, anti-corruption reforms.

Let me know which area you want to discuss in more detail, but in general Ukraine has commited itself to democratic reforms required to eventually integrate into European Union.


----------



## gipper

BackAgain said:


> My question didn’t assume mindless hypotheticals.
> 
> And your point is of course pointless anyway. Let’s see why. Let’s use Vietnam as an example to fill in your idiotic blanks.
> We did invade Vietnam. They obviously hadn’t invaded us. Vietnam was a sovereign nation at the time. So obviously, we were to blame for our decision and action of going into fight that “police action” barring other factors.
> 
> But let’s go further. Let’s say for the sake of the discussion that no other factors justified our military action.  And, now?
> 
> Can we undo history?  Nope. But can we potentially help stop Russia from the wrong that it IS NOW COMMITTING?  Yes.
> 
> But your pointless is otherwise still useless. 👍


No. My point is very obvious. Americans like to condemn Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, but think the USG’s constant imperialist wars of aggression are a-okay.


----------



## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> Ukraine has been making progress on free and fair elections, constitutionally guaranteed rights, independent judiciary and other vertical separation of powers, freedom of speech and media independence, anti-corruption reforms.


Pure crap.  Food for idiots


----------



## BackAgain

gipper said:


> No. My point is very obvious. Americans like to condemn Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, but think the USG’s constant imperialist wars of aggression is a-okay.


No. Your pointless presented hypotheticals which I chose to flesh out. Then I acknowledged that it. But then I noted something you remain to flaccid (brain wise) to acknowledge yourself. 

That was in the PAST. We can’t undo the past. What Russia *is* doing is today. That is something we might still have some handle on your arrogance and presumptuousness get in the way of your  ability to think logically.


----------



## gipper

BackAgain said:


> No. Your pointless presented hypotheticals which I chose to flesh out. Then I acknowledged that it. But then I noted something you remain to flaccid (brain wise) to acknowledge yourself.
> 
> That was in the PAST. We can’t undo the past. What Russia *is* doing is today. That is something we might still have some handle on your arrogance and presumptuousness get in the way of your  ability to think logically.


Apparently you’ve failed to learn from the past. 

You think the past means nothing and you don’t know anything about current actions.


----------



## BackAgain

gipper said:


> Apparently you’ve failed to learn from the past.
> 
> You think the past means nothing and you don’t know anything about current actions.


No such thing is apparent. You just make shit up on the fly. Gfy.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> No. My point is very obvious. Americans like to condemn Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, but think the USG’s constant imperialist wars of aggression are a-okay.


It's good to see you admit the Russian invasion of Ukraine is an imperial war of aggression, but in fact there have been no American imperial wars of aggression for 100 years.  America has not sought to retain control over any adversary it defeated or to exploit its economy or to define the rights of that country's citizens to benefit the US, as Russia is attempting to do in Ukraine now.  

Prior to WWII, imperialist wars were commonplace but since then civilized countries have moved on and such actions by them are not tolerated, but Russia, under Putin's rule, has moved backward to a more primitive and brutal time when there were no laws and people had no rights and it was ok, even celebrated, to take whatever you wanted if you were strong enough to.  Putin simply doesn't understand the world he is living in today.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> It's good to see you admit the Russian invasion of Ukraine is an imperial war of aggression, but in fact there have been no American imperial wars of aggression for 100 years.  America has not sought to retain control over any adversary it defeated or to exploit its economy or to define the rights of that country's citizens to benefit the US, as Russia is attempting to do in Ukraine now.
> 
> Prior to WWII, imperialist wars were commonplace but since then civilized countries have moved on and such actions by them are not tolerated, but Russia, under Putin's rule, has moved backward to a more primitive and brutal time when there were no laws and people had no rights and it was ok, even celebrated, to take whatever you wanted if you were strong enough to.  Putin simply doesn't understand the world he is living in today.


Absurd. You are the poster boy for what I’m talking about.


----------



## Ringo




----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Absurd. You are the poster boy for what I’m talking about.


Strange, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

AntonToo said:


> Ukraine has been making progress on free and fair elections, constitutionally guaranteed rights, independent judiciary and other vertical separation of powers, freedom of speech and media independence, anti-corruption reforms.
> 
> Let me know which area you want to discuss in more detail, but in general Ukraine has commited itself to democratic reforms required to eventually integrate into European Union.


Nothing says free and fair elections like outlawing your opponents


----------



## AntonToo

CrusaderFrank said:


> Nothing says free and fair elections like outlawing your opponents


What the hell are you talking about? Zelensky was the opponent of incumbent named Poroshenko, whom he beat in a landslide.

And obviously there are no elections or political constests during a war, only martial law.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> What the hell are you talking about? There are no elections during a war, there is MARTIAL LAW.


See?  Once again you freely admit to being uninformed. How does it happen so fucking often?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> No. My point is very obvious. Americans like to condemn Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, but think the USG’s constant imperialist wars of aggression are a-okay.


Not Americans like YOU though, right? So then why is it you have so much trouble condemning Russia for it's invasion and keep blaming America for it?

Kinda makes you look like you are full of Russian shit.


----------



## RodISHI

Putin and gang are finishing up what some of their predecessors started in getting rid of peoples they do not think deserve to live. 

These poor souls like many others through history have believe the propaganda until they are enlightened. The riches of the lands stolen from them for the few and they are used for fodder to feed the war machines.


This song needs to be done in Russian and Chinese for the masses who are possibly buying into the cruelty of the current war and threats of war.


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> It means nothing to you maybe but bi-partisan majority of Americans disagree and support helping Ukrainians have their own country, because they believe Ukranians share our democratic values.


"share our democratic values"?????????????????????   Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries on earth,   they don't share our constitutional values.  Hell, the democrat party in this country does not share our constitutional democratic values.

And the majority of Americans agree with what I just posted, you are part of a shrinking minority.


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> Not Americans like YOU though, right? So then why is it you have so much trouble condemning Russia for it's invasion and keep blaming America for it?
> 
> Kinda makes you look like you are full of Russian shit.


The point here is that what Russia does in Ukraine is none of our damn business,  Ukraine used to be part of Russia and half of the Ukrainian people want to rejoin Russia.   But if that happens the payments to the Biden family and the Pelosi family and the Rodney and Kerry families would stop, and that is why we are sending billions to Ukraine, so they can send part of it back to the DC establishment corrupt families.


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> The point here is that what Russia does in Ukraine is none of our damn business,  Ukraine used to be part of Russia and half of the Ukrainian people want to rejoin Russia.


That wasn't his point. His point was that it is supposedly hypocritical for Americans to look down on Russian invasion, while supporting our own. My point is of course that he himself looks like a hypocrite for not simply condemning Russian invasion and instead blaming us for it.

Aside from that, I don't know where you get your info but VERY few Ukranians want to live under Putin and Zelensky has an overwhelming support of Ukranians in their fight against Russian invasion. Ukranians used to have mixed feelings about Russia and the extent of co-operation between their countries, all that is GONE, replaced mostly by outright hate to strong disaproval.

It is *absolutely* our bussiness to promote international order and open, democratic governing to ensure long term stability and growth. Isolationism does not work, as history has proven time and time again and it especially does not work in the context of modern global economic and social integration. The only serious question is how agressive we are in pursuing those interests.


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> "share our democratic values"?????????????????????   Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries on earth,   they don't share our constitutional values.



Yes Ukraine has corruption problems but they also showed willingness to address them and most importantly implemented systemic* MEANS* for the people of Ukraine to hold their government accountable through a peaceful, lawful, political process.

They have blood-proven their commitment to joining the modern western world, because they belive that our way of open economic development and governing is the right path for their contry, not Russian style corrupt authoritarianism.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yes Ukraine has corruption problems but they also showed willingness to address them and most importantly implemented systemic* MEANS* for the people of Ukraine to hold their government accountable through a peaceful, lawful, political process.
> 
> They have blood-proven their commitment to joining the modern western world, because they belive that our way of open economic development and governing is the right path for their contry, not Russian style corrupt authoritarianism.


Imagine being such a pathetic sniveling bootlicker that you believe the only possible reason someone would want to criticize the most powerful and murderous power structure on earth is if they were paid to do so by a foreign government.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Imagine being such a pathetic sniveling bootlicker that you believe the only possible reason someone would want to criticize the most powerful and murderous power structure on earth is if they were paid to do so by a foreign government.


....? What the fuck what you've just said have to do with the post you are replying to?

And btw, If you are saying that I'm saying that you are paid by Russia to post here then...stop consuming whatever mind altering substances is causing you to misread my posts so badly. Plenty of clueless fools like you eat up and spread Russian propaganda without getting paid for it.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> ....? what are you replying to?
> 
> If you are saying that I'm saying that you are paid by Russia to post here then...stop consuming whatever mind altering substances is causing you to misread my posts so badly.


To you. Because you are guilty of exactly what I stated above more than anyone else here. Don’t you agree?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> To you. Because you are guilty of exactly what I stated above more than anyone else here. Don’t you agree?


What the fuck does that have to do with the post you quoted?

If you quote a post your reply ought to have_ something _to do with it's contents.

And no, I'm not saying dupes like you are smart enough to get paid for spreading silly Russian propaganda.


----------



## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> It is *absolutely* our bussiness to promote international order and open, democratic governing to ensure long term stability and growth. Isolationism does not work, as history has proven time and time again and it especially does not work in the context of modern global economic and social integration. The only serious question is how agressive we are in pursuing those interests.


It's not enough for you to be just a vlasovets, you need to be a hypocritical vlasovets.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> What the fuck does that have to do with the post you quoted?
> 
> If you quote a post your reply ought to have_ something _to do with it's contents.
> 
> And no, I'm not saying dupes like you are smart enough to get paid for spreading silly Russian propaganda.


How about this?

Sacrificing for a war in Ukraine that didn't have to be while defense companies make record profits. When will the people learn that their interests & interests of warmongering capitalist are not the same? End the war in Ukraine, abolish NATO, reject "full spectrum dominance."


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> How about this?
> 
> Sacrificing for a war in Ukraine that didn't have to be while defense companies make record profits. When will the people learn that their interests & interests of warmongering capitalist are not the same? End the war in Ukraine, abolish NATO, reject "full spectrum dominance."



What's the problem with defense companies making money? Why should I oppose sending HIMARS to Ukraine?  Because someone in America gets paid to produce them?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> What's the problem with defense companies making money? Why should I oppose sending HIMARS to Ukraine?  Because someone in America gets paid to produce them?


Lol. Yeah what’s wrong with that?  WTF. Talk about brain dead.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol. Yeah what’s wrong with that?  WTF. Talk about brain dead.



Yea, what's wrong with that?

Can you actually coherently answer the question idiot?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yea, what's wrong with that?
> 
> Can you actually coherently answer the question idiot?



You’d think billions given to this most corrupt nation in Europe to continue a proxy war that is killing lots of people and TRILLIONS wasted in Afghanistan to put the Taliban back in power, while millions of Americans suffer poverty and homelessness would clue you in. But, no.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You’d think billions given to this most corrupt nation in Europe to continue a proxy war that is killing lots of people and TRILLIONS wasted in Afghanistan to put the Taliban back in power, while millions of Americans suffer poverty and homelessness would clue you in. But, no.


Actually, Russia is the most corrupt nation in Europe according to all the corruption indices, and that's why its experiment with democracy and a market economy failed so miserably, and the corruption in Ukraine is mostly the result of Russian efforts to undermine the state institutions of Ukraine.  

It is just brain dead stupid to call the western efforts to help Ukraine defend itself a proxy war against Russia since Russia is not being attacked.   If you had even half of a functioning brain, you would realize that defense spending creates good paying jobs and those jobs relieve poverty and homelessness, There is never anything in your posts but Russian propaganda and half baked conspiracy theories.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Actually, Russia is the most corrupt nation in Europe according to all the corruption indices, and that's why its experiment with democracy and a market economy failed so miserably, and the corruption in Ukraine is mostly the result of Russian efforts to undermine the state institutions of Ukraine.
> 
> It is just brain dead stupid to call the western efforts to help Ukraine defend itself a proxy war against Russia since Russia is not being attacked.   If you had even half of a functioning brain, you would realize that defense spending creates good paying jobs and those jobs relieve poverty and homelessness, There is never anything in your posts but Russian propaganda and half baked conspiracy theories.


You’re uninformed. You know nothing of the history. All you know is Russia invaded so they’re the bad guys. The US has invaded many nations. Why aren’t we the bad guys?


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You’re uninformed. You know nothing of the history. All you know is Russia invaded so they’re the bad guys. The US has invaded many nations. Why aren’t we the bad guys?


Again you demonstrate how woefully stupid and ignorant you are.  There have been no wars of imperialist aggression from the US for 100 years and none from western democracies since the 1950's but Russia's invasion of Ukraine is an imperialist war of aggression.  The only history that matters is that Russia formally recognized Ukraine's borders and formally pledged to never violate them in the 1990's.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again you demonstrate how woefully stupid and ignorant you are.  There have been no wars of imperialist aggression from the US for 100 years and none from western democracies since the 1950's but Russia's invasion of Ukraine is an imperialist war of aggression.  The only history that matters is that Russia formally recognized Ukraine's borders and formally pledged to never violate them in the 1990's.


You’d think 20 years and trillions spent on Afghanistan to give it back to the Taliban within hours of departure, would tell you something.

Every war from Vietnam on has been an imperialist war of aggression. Wake up!

Tell me your 12 years old going to government school and believing everything they tell you.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You’d think billions given to this most corrupt nation in Europe to continue a proxy war that is killing lots of people and TRILLIONS wasted in Afghanistan to put the Taliban back in power, while millions of Americans suffer poverty and homelessness would clue you in. But, no.



Yep, can't answer anything straight, just deflection after deflection.

I asked you what's wrong with American companies getting paid to develop and build advanced weapons we have given to Ukraine...you talk about everything BUT that.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You’d think 20 years and trillions spent on Afghanistan to give it back to the Taliban within hours of departure, would tell you something.
> 
> Every war from Vietnam on has been an imperialist war of aggression. Wake up!
> 
> Tell me your 12 years old going to government school and believing everything they tell you.


Again, you demonstrate just how very stupid you are.  An imperialist war aims at taking and keeping control of another country and the US has not gone to war with that intention for 100 years.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again, you demonstrate just how very stupid you are.  An imperialist war aims at taking and keeping control of another country and the US has not gone to war with that intention for 100 years.


I’m glad you know what the textbook definition of imperialism is, but you’re still unaware of how the USG does imperialism.  Almost all US wars were wars of imperialism. 

Maybe this excellent column by an informed Republican will help you, but I doubt it.

We Are Not Useful Idiots!​*Between 1947 and 1989, the United States tried to change other nations’ governments 72 times; That’s a remarkable number. It includes 66 covert operations and six overt ones.

Most covert efforts to replace another country’s government failed.*

During the Cold War, for instance, 26 of the United States’ covert operations successfully brought a U.S.-backed government to power; the remaining *40 failed*.

*I found 16 cases in which Washington sought to influence foreign elections by covertly funding, advising and spreading propaganda for its preferred candidates*, often doing so beyond a single election cycle. Of these, the U.S.-backed parties won their elections 75 percent of the time.

*My research found that after a nation’s government was toppled, it was less democratic and more likely to suffer civil war, domestic instability and mass killing.* At the very least, citizens lost faith in their governments.
We Are Not Useful Idiots! - Antiwar.com Original


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, can't answer anything straight, just deflection after deflection.
> 
> I asked you what's wrong with American companies getting paid to develop and build advanced weapons we have given to Ukraine...you talk about everything BUT that.




Okay I’ll try again only slower this time.

You do know these companies are paid by American taxpayers right?  In most cases, they get their enormous profits off the backs of the American people. Yes?  No?

Becasuse it does nothing but enrich a small select group and causes mass death and destruction, while millions of Americans suffer in poverty.

You‘re not intelligent enough to understand a proxy war with a nuclear power isn’t smart foreign policy, and causes unnecessary death and destruction.

War profiteers love fools like you.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Okay I’ll try again only slower this time.
> 
> You do know these companies are paid by American taxpayers right?  In most cases, they get their enormous profits off the backs of the American people. Yes?  No?
> 
> Becasuse it does nothing but enrich a small select group and causes mass death and destruction, while millions of Americans suffer in poverty.
> 
> You‘re not intelligent enough to understand a proxy war with a nuclear power isn’t smart foreign policy, and causes unnecessary death and destruction.
> 
> War profiteers love fools like you.



By gosh, how dare we arm a country Russia is invading!? They have nukes don't you know, so we should just roll over all our interests and appease Putin's imperialist fixations.


----------



## laferia52

peacefan said:


> i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.
> 
> 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia
> ...
> After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
> ...
> and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
> you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
> NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
> Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
> NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
> AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.
> .. ..
> 
> 
> it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.
> 
> and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).
> 
> but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers,
> combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
> means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.
> 
> there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
> and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.
> 
> all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.
> & wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!
> 
> IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
> i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
> who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.
> 
> i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
> i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
> and i know the same is true in the USA.
> if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
> i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today).
> 
> i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
> they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother, to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").
> 
> and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip, and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> [1] for which i had suggested that Putin would back down and build a trainline from that naval base in Sebastopol (Crimea) straight East and then North into actual Russian territories, on usmessageboard.com no less


The USA did not accept the Soviet Union establishing a base in Cuba back in the 60s. The US and the Soviet Union almost went to war over this issue. Same thing in Ukraine. Russia does not accept the USA arming Ukraine and setting up a government friendly to the West. A US supported coup removed the Ukrainian president that was allied with the Russians. now zelensky is receiving billions of dollars from the USA.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> I’m glad you know what the textbook definition of imperialism is, but you’re still unaware of how the USG does imperialism.  Almost all US wars were wars of imperialism.
> 
> Maybe this excellent column by an informed Republican will help you, but I doubt it.
> 
> We Are Not Useful Idiots!​*Between 1947 and 1989, the United States tried to change other nations’ governments 72 times; That’s a remarkable number. It includes 66 covert operations and six overt ones.
> 
> Most covert efforts to replace another country’s government failed.*
> 
> During the Cold War, for instance, 26 of the United States’ covert operations successfully brought a U.S.-backed government to power; the remaining *40 failed*.
> 
> *I found 16 cases in which Washington sought to influence foreign elections by covertly funding, advising and spreading propaganda for its preferred candidates*, often doing so beyond a single election cycle. Of these, the U.S.-backed parties won their elections 75 percent of the time.
> 
> *My research found that after a nation’s government was toppled, it was less democratic and more likely to suffer civil war, domestic instability and mass killing.* At the very least, citizens lost faith in their governments.
> We Are Not Useful Idiots! - Antiwar.com Original


Once again you post nothing but garbage.  The subject is wars of imperialism and there is nothing about any wars of imperialism in your post, nothing even close to Russia's outrageous invasion of Ukraine.  Once again, the US has not engaged in an imperialist war of aggression in 100 years and the western Europeans have not in over 70 years, but Putin's Russia has engaged in 4 imperialist wars of aggression in less than 30 years.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Once again you post nothing but garbage.  The subject is wars of imperialism and there is nothing about any wars of imperialism in your post, nothing even close to Russia's outrageous invasion of Ukraine.  Once again, the US has not engaged in an imperialist war of aggression in 100 years and the western Europeans have not in over 70 years, but Putin's Russia has engaged in 4 imperialist wars of aggression in less than 30 years.


$10,000 for student loans, $2,300,000,000,000 for the 20 year imperial war in Afghanistan to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.

WHAT A COUNTRY!!!


----------



## Riff Raff

peacefan said:


> i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
> ...
> After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
> ...


Okay



peacefan said:


> and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
> you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
> NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
> Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
> NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
> AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.


Wrong. Sovereign nations have the right to join the defensive alliance for their national security. Russia has no veto power over that.

Russia even had the opportunity to further develop their association with NATO.

There was no "suffocation" or "driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner." You're affording Russia political and territorial power they do not possess.

Bears necessarily need restricted for the safety of people.



peacefan said:


> it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.


Russian speakers in nations outside of Russia do not hold privileged status over other citizens. They are free to relocate to Russia if they prefer, but they cannot take sovereign nations territory with them.



peacefan said:


> and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).


Totally false and unacceptable. Crimea is Ukrainian territory stolen by Russia. It is not Russian territory, as you imply.



peacefan said:


> but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers,


Russia's interference in Ukraine's  domestic dispute in their Donbass region is unacceptable.



peacefan said:


> combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
> means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.
> 
> there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
> and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.  all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.& wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!


Solely due to the actions of a belligerent Russian leader.



peacefan said:


> IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
> i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
> who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.


Easy choice. Few of Russia's neighbors like or trust Russia, with good historical reason and further exemplified by their assault on Ukraine.



peacefan said:


> i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
> i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
> and i know the same is true in the USA.
> if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
> i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today).


I don't know what issues you Dutch have in your country, but you are totally wrong about the USA. America is still a land of opportunity. The possibilities for upward mobility is endless and unrestricted.



peacefan said:


> i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
> they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother,


Your baseless claim is outrageous. NATO and EU committed "crimes against humanity?!" You are ridiculous.



peacefan said:


> to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").


Did the Netherlands not get the news that Communism ceased to exist in Russia a few decades ago?



peacefan said:


> and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip


That would be a good start.



peacefan said:


> and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine.


----------



## Ringo

Russia ready to discuss possibility of negotiations with Ukraine only in event of Kiev’s unconditional surrender, reduction in size of Ukrainian military, and country’s DENAZIFICATION - Russian Parliament International Affairs Committee Chairman Leonid Slutsky.


----------



## ESay

Ringo said:


> Russia ready to discuss possibility of negotiations with Ukraine only in event of Kiev’s unconditional surrender, reduction in size of Ukrainian military, and country’s DENAZIFICATION - Russian Parliament International Affairs Committee Chairman Leonid Slutsky.


The answer is the same you got back in the March - fuck off.


----------



## Ringo

ESay said:


> The answer is the same you got back in the March - fuck off.


As Goebbels stated in the spring of 1945, "Anything can happen in this war, except unconditional surrender."


----------



## georgephillip

What percentage of international aid to Ukraine reaches its intended destination?

"All of this stuff goes across the border, and then something happens, kind of like 30% of it reaches its final destination,' said Jonas Ohman, the founder of Blue-Yellow, a Lithuania-based organization that _CBS_ said has been meeting with and supplying frontline units with aid in Ukraine since the start of the war in the Donbas in 2014. '30-40%, that’s my estimation,' Ohman said."

CBS deletes documentary promo on corrupt Ukraine military aid after US gov't pressure - The Grayzone

Ukraine is either the first or second most corrupt state in Europe (depending on whether or not you count Russia). So why is it surprising this latest example of fighting Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood mired in "free" market corruption?


----------



## AntonToo

laferia52 said:


> The USA did not accept the Soviet Union establishing a base in Cuba back in the 60s. The US and the Soviet Union almost went to war over this issue. Same thing in Ukraine. Russia does not accept the USA arming Ukraine and setting up a government friendly to the West. A US supported coup removed the Ukrainian president that was allied with the Russians. now zelensky is receiving billions of dollars from the USA.



What base was US establishing in Ukraine? What the hell are you talking about?

Ukraine was told by NATO that they do not qualify to join, what fucking base!?


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> Russia ready to discuss possibility of negotiations with Ukraine only in event of Kiev’s unconditional surrender, reduction in size of Ukrainian military, and country’s DENAZIFICATION - Russian Parliament International Affairs Committee Chairman Leonid Slutsky.



Moron, newsflash for you: Ukraine is not surrendering. 

Take your idiotic Kremlin bs and go fuck yourself.


----------



## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> Ukraine was told by NATO that they do not qualify to join, what fucking base!?


NATO also promised to Russia not to move to the east. Only an idiot can take the word of the scum and perverts leading NATO.


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> NATO also promised to Russia not to move to the east.


So what? Russia promisses false things and lies everyday.

 It was a non-binding agreement and it was broken, tough shit. Countries asked NATO to let them join and NATO allowed them to join.

And whats the logic of Russian interest in invading Ukraine? *INVASION ONLY EXPANDED NATO! *As a direct consequence of this invasion Sweeden and Finland are joining now and Ukraine will be a member in a matter of a few years. Because guess what, when you are known to invade your neighbors they will seek PROTECTION by joining a strong alliance who's very mission is to protect it's members from Russian invasions.


----------



## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> So what? Russia promisses false things and lies everyday.


I don't discuss with stinking, lying vlasovites. Fuk off, nit


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> I don't discuss with stinking, lying vlasovites. Fuk off, nit


It was you who quoted and replied to me, while I was addressing someone else, so absolutely you do. Right moron? The real reason you cut off my post is your total inability to refute what I've said about Russia's counter-productive invasion.

P.S. Vlasovite is a rare inosilicate mineral with sodium and zirconium....not much of an insult.


----------



## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> P.S. Vlasovite is a rare inosilicate mineral with sodium and zirconium....not much of an insult.


Personally for you, stupid scum, I will write in Russian: Ты мерзкая власовская гнида. Not a mineral at all.


----------



## ESay

Ringo said:


> As Goebbels stated in the spring of 1945, "Anything can happen in this war, except unconditional surrender."


When your dirty troops will come around Kiev, you can try this shit again.


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> Personally for you, stupid scum, I will write in Russian: Ты мерзкая власовская гнида. Not a mineral at all.


You probably don't realize it but you are just posting insane ramblings.

We are civilians discussing politics, not some soldiers in the imaginary war in your head. You are not convincing anyone of anything except that you have mental issues.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> By gosh, how dare we arm a country Russia is invading!? They have nukes don't you know, so we should just roll over all our interests and appease Putin's imperialist fixations.


Lol. Please outline EXACTLY what OUR interests are in Ukraine?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> So what? Russia promisses false things and lies everyday.
> 
> It was a non-binding agreement and it was broken, tough shit. Countries asked NATO to let them join and NATO allowed them to join.
> 
> And whats the logic of Russian interest in invading Ukraine? *INVASION ONLY EXPANDED NATO! *As a direct consequence of this invasion Sweeden and Finland are joining now and Ukraine will be a member in a matter of a few years. Because guess what, when you are known to invade your neighbors they will seek PROTECTION by joining a strong alliance who's very mission is to protect it's members from Russian invasions.


Yeah tough shit Russia, but the USG will destroy any nation in the Western Hemisphere if it is it aligned with them. 

Ever heard of the Monroe Doctrine?

Still waiting for all those “interests” Americans have in Ukraine.


----------



## para bellum

Ringo said:


> NATO also promised to Russia not to move to the east.


No they did not. Bush and Clinton gave assurances to that effect, not NATO.

The 1997 Founding Act between NATO and Russia, Russia agreed to:

"seek the widest possible cooperation among participating States of the OSCE with the aim of creating in Europe a common space of security and stability, *without dividing lines or spheres of influence limiting the sovereignty of any state*."

and to:

"refrain from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States
contained in the Helsinki Final Act; respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and *their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security*, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents"


----------



## gipper

para bellum said:


> No they did not. Bush and Clinton gave assurances to that effect, not NATO.
> 
> The 1997 Founding Act between NATO and Russia, Russia agreed to:
> 
> "seek the widest possible cooperation among participating States of the OSCE with the aim of creating in Europe a common space of security and stability, *without dividing lines or spheres of influence limiting the sovereignty of any state*."
> 
> and to:
> 
> "refrain from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States
> contained in the Helsinki Final Act; respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and *their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security*, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents"


You think it’s perfectly okay for presidents to lie to foreign nations. 

President’s promises to foreign nations mean nothing and you think that’s just fine.


----------



## para bellum

gipper said:


> You think it’s perfectly okay for presidents to lie to foreign nations.


The whole NATO expansion meme is just an excuse. NATO is a defensive alliance (primarily a nuclear shield). That shield is what allows European nations to sign on to the NPT, because they do not need nukes themselves. Take away NATO, those countries would have to acquire nukes for their own protection.

Bush and Clinton are not NATO and sovereign nations have the inherent right to secure their own defense and enter into treaties with whomever they choose.

The USSR is gone. The 1991 borders are the new reality. The former SFR's are free to run their own affairs.


gipper said:


> President’s promises to foreign nations mean nothing and you think that’s just fine.


Oh please. Putin has broken every International agreement of the 20th Century and some from even before that. _You_ obviously think _that_ is just fine...


----------



## gipper

para bellum said:


> The whole NATO expansion meme is just an excuse. NATO is a defensive alliance (primarily a nuclear shield). That shield is what allows European nations to sign on to the NPT, because they do not need nukes themselves. Take away NATO, those countries would have to acquire nukes for their own protection.
> 
> Bush and Clinton are not NATO and sovereign nations have the inherent right to secure their own defense and enter into treaties with whomever they choose.
> 
> The USSR is gone. The 1991 borders are the new reality. The former SFR's are free to run their own affairs.
> 
> Oh please. Putin has broken every International agreement of the 20th Century and some from even before that. _You_ obviously think _that_ is just fine...


Amazing the hypocrisy of some Americans.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> What base was US establishing in Ukraine? What the hell are you talking about?
> 
> Ukraine was told by NATO that they do not qualify to join, what fucking base!?


The US and its NATO puppets have systematically trained and armed Ukraine's military since 2014 in hopes of provoking the sort of Russian response we see today; it's an old story that began with Operation Red Sox in 1949 with the goal of fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.

In 2014, the 'decrepit' Ukrainian army hit the refresh button. Eight years later, it's paying off

"In 2014, the Obama administration provided US$291 million in assistance, and *by the end of 2021, the United States had given a total of $2.7 billion in training and equipment.*

"As part of this assistance, the United States helped train Ukrainian soldiers at the Yavoriv military base. 

"The base quickly became a top-notch training center, where an estimated five battalions have trained annually since 2015.

"In 2016, Poroshenko asked for senior defense advisers from the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Lithuania and Germany to advise Ukraine on modernizing its armed forces with the goal of reaching NATO standards, rules and procedures by 2020..."

*"Another important NATO standard was insuring that Ukraine was able to integrate its logistical support with other NATO units when deployed."*


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol. Please outline EXACTLY what OUR interests are in Ukraine?


Stable, developed democracy that shares our western values.

It's good for them and it's good for us.

You know who that's bad for? Putin, he well knows that a prospering Ukraine will be the end of his little kleptocracy. Ukranians are not the only ones looking westward.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> The US and its NATO puppets have systematically trained and armed Ukraine's military since 2014 in hopes of provoking the sort of Russian response we see today;



Horseshit, we gave them some Javelins, which are small *defensive *weapons.

Ukraine had NOTHING to threaten Russia with and you have to be seriously ignorant to belive Putinist propaganda that a small country like Ukraine had any interest or means to attack nuclear armed Russia.


----------



## ESay

It is interesting to see how some Americans are embarrassed by violations of some promises made by some Western politicians to some Russian politicians. 

Dudes, these promises were given by W H Bush and Kohl to Gorbachev when the Warsaw Pact was breaking down. Promises of politicians to other politicians. 

These promises lost their relevance when these politicians went from the scene.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Stable, developed democracy that shares our western values.
> 
> It's good for them and it's good for us.
> 
> You know who that's bad for? Putin, he well knows that a prospering Ukraine will be the end of his little kleptocracy. Ukranians are not the only ones looking westward.


No. Those aren’t American interests. Plus Ukraine isn’t a democracy. 

I thought kooky cons revered the Founders. You do know what they said about foreign interventions and war???  Well maybe not. I can inform if you if you like.


----------



## Flash

Being someone that grew up in the Cold War and was in a war where the other side was being supplied by the fucking Russians I like the idea that Russians are being killed.

The Russians have been the bad guy most of my life so I have sympathies for Ukraine who was invaded and who are doing the killing of the Russian military.

I have no love for the Ukrainians but as long as they are killing a couple of hundred Russian soldiers each day then they are alright in my book.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Horseshit, we gave them some Javelins, which are small *defensive *weapons.
> 
> Ukraine had NOTHING to threaten Russia with and you have to be seriously ignorant to belive Putinist propaganda that a small country like Ukraine had any interest or means to attack nuclear armed Russia.


What?  Do you not know what it means when a nation joins NATO?  It’s very conceivable that NATO would place nuclear weapons on its border with Russia.

I know you haven’t thought this through. Do you really think the US would allow Mexico to place nuclear weapons provided by an enemy of the US on our border, if Mexico wanted to?

Ever heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis?


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> It is interesting to see how some Americans are embarrassed by violations of some promises made by some Western politicians to some Russian politicians.
> 
> Dudes, these promises were given by W H Bush and Kohl to Gorbachev when the Warsaw Pact was breaking down. Promises of politicians to other politicians.
> 
> These promises lost their relevance when these politicians went from the scene.


Too funny. I guess the world needs to know that promises by presidents are worthless. So you’re cool with our leader’s word meaning nothing. 

Your outlandish love of imperialism has you twisted into a pretzel. Pretzel logic. You.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Too funny. I guess the world needs to know that promises by presidents are worthless. So you’re cool with our leader’s word meaning nothing.
> 
> Your outlandish love of imperialism has you twisted into a pretzel. Pretzel logic. You.


You have the logic of a kid. So the promise of President WH Bush given to President Gorbachev at the end of the Cold War should be followed 30 years later in completely different circumstances by different persons?

Wake up dude. Promises between two presidents that aren't being laid on some legal basis have relevance only when these presidents have real power.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> You have the logic of a kid. So the promise of President WH Bush given to President Gorbachev at the end of the Cold War should be followed 30 years later in completely different circumstances by different persons?
> 
> Wake up dude. Promises between two presidents that aren't being laid on some legal basis have relevance only when these presidents have real power.


Dude…the promise was almost immediately broken. It didn't take thirty years. Wake up!

Again if the word of a sitting president is meaningless, you’d think that would cause concern for warmonger like yourself.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Horseshit, we gave them some Javelins, which are small *defensive *weapons.
> 
> Ukraine had NOTHING to threaten Russia with and you have to be seriously ignorant to belive Putinist propaganda that a small country like Ukraine had any interest or means to attack nuclear armed Russia.


We gave them hope in 2008 when Bush II babbled about Georgia and Ukraine becoming NATO members; do you recall how that turned out?





Russo-Georgian War - Wikipedia

Those who own the US government had a big payday in Russia during Yeltsin's two terms, and they will never stop coming back for more. Putin will make Lviv glow in the dark before that happens.

There's only one country killing, maiming, and displacing millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the globe, and it's not Russia.


----------



## georgephillip

Flash said:


> Being someone that grew up in the Cold War and was in a war where the other side was being supplied by the fucking Russians I like the idea that Russians are being killed.
> 
> The Russians have been the bad guy most of my life so I have sympathies for Ukraine who was invaded and who are doing the killing of the Russian military.
> 
> I have no love for the Ukrainians but as long as they are killing a couple of hundred Russian soldiers each day then they are alright in my book.


Has it ever occurred to you that you were lied to about the Cold War, Russia, and American Exceptionalism?


----------



## Flash

georgephillip said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that you were lied to about the Cold War, Russia, and American Exceptionalism?


The government has lied to me many times in my life.

Like Biden saying the other day that more government spending for stupid things will stop inflation.  Remember when The Worthless Negro said that increased taxes are good for the economy? How about when he said it was a good thing to bomb Libyan civilians?  Remember when Slick Willy said he didn't have sex with that Lewinsky woman?  How about when The FBI Director said that Crooked Hillary was innocent because she had "no intent"?

The biggest lie from the government was when the 2020 stolen election was certified by traitors to the Republic.

The Russians have been assholes my entire life and I was born when Harry Truman was President.   They are being world class assholes now in Ukraine just like they have been other places in the world and I hope they get their asses kicked.



If you want the goddamn Russians to win then you can kiss my Cracker ass.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Dude…the promise was almost immediately broken. It didn't take thirty years. Wake up!
> 
> Again if the word of a sitting president is meaningless, you’d think that would cause concern for warmonger like yourself.


 Sitting president? The first NATO enlargement took place 9 years later (if you don't count East Germany that had ceased to exist and its territory became NATO automatically).

To that time, not only those sitting presidents were gone, but one of the countries didn't exist.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> What?  Do you not know what it means when a nation joins NATO?  It’s very conceivable that NATO would place nuclear weapons on its border with Russia.



3 NATO countries on Russian border (soon to be 5) - any nuclear weapons? NO.

Poland - long time NATO member, any nuclear weapons? NO.

Ukraine - NOT EVEN A MEMBER OF NATO and wasn't going to become one for at least a decade before Russia invaded and put their membership application on fast track.

So where the hell do you get your "conceptions" from and what makes you think that something _conceptual _are sound grounds for ACTUAL invasion?


And BTW, China actually DOES have nuclear weapons on Russian border:









						China Moves Nuclear Missiles to Russian Border
					

China has redeployed a number of its Dongfeng-41 nuclear Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles to the Heilongjiang province on the border with Russia.




					www.themoscowtimes.com


----------



## Ringo

Suicide missions, abuse, physical threats: International Legion fighters speak out against leadership’s misconduct
					

Disclaimer: The Kyiv Independent is publishing this investigation to shed light on the alleged abuse of power in the leadership of one wing of the International Legion – a legion created for foreign fighters dedicated to defending Ukraine as part




					kyivindependent.com
				




_The Kyiv Independent is publishing this investigation to shed light on the alleged abuse of power in the leadership of one wing of the International Legion – a legion created for foreign fighters dedicated to defending Ukraine. The members of the Legion’s unit say that they reported their commanders’ misconduct to Ukrainian law enforcement, the parliament, and President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Office, but saw no proper reaction and thus turned to journalists as a last resort. Soldiers who pointed at the problems within this unit of the Legion claim they received threats for speaking up. For their safety, we do not disclose their identities._
--
Apart from sending fighters to die, legionnaires said, Kuchynsky forced them to help him loot stores. Fighters told the Kyiv Independent that he is also a heavy drinker who abuses his subordinates.

Another soldier, an American Jew, told the Kyiv Independent that Jewish soldiers experienced antisemitism from Kuchynsky.  He emphasized that he did not encounter it from anyone else in the Ukrainian military.

The soldier also says Kuchynsky demanded to have a share of the gear and equipment that the soldier bought for his close peers from the legion. When the soldier refused to give it away, Kuchynsky pointed a gun at him. 

“And then Sasha (Kuchynsky) just started yelling, screaming,” the soldier recalled. "He said, ‘I know there's


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> 3 NATO countries on Russian border (soon to be 5) - any nuclear weapons? NO.
> 
> Poland - long time NATO member, any nuclear weapons? NO.
> 
> Ukraine - NOT EVEN A MEMBER OF NATO and wasn't going to become one for at least a decade before Russia invaded and put their membership application on fast track.
> 
> So where the hell do you get your "conceptions" from and what makes you think that something _conceptual _are sound grounds for ACTUAL invasion?
> 
> 
> And BTW, China actually DOES have nuclear weapons on Russian border:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Moves Nuclear Missiles to Russian Border
> 
> 
> China has redeployed a number of its Dongfeng-41 nuclear Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles to the Heilongjiang province on the border with Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.themoscowtimes.com


Yeah Russia must believe no nukes will be put on their border, because there aren’t any right now. Logic from one who is incapable of logic.

Statist fascist imperialist warmongers. Ugh!


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Sitting president? The first NATO enlargement took place 9 years later (if you don't count East Germany that had ceased to exist and its territory became NATO automatically).
> 
> To that time, not only those sitting presidents were gone, but one of the countries didn't exist.


You don’t know what a sitting president means. It means the president at the time in question. Like Poppy CIA cucksucker Bush. Or BJ Bubba when he was getting BJs in the oval.

You aren’t an American are you?  What are you?

Would like the USG to nuke Russia?  Be honest.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Yeah Russia must believe no nukes will be put on their border, because there aren’t any right now. Logic from one who is incapable of logic.
> 
> Statist fascist imperialist warmongers. Ugh!


Why would this even be an issue since everything in Russia can be destroyed three times over with existing missiles?  There simply would be no reason to put them there and there would be no rational reason for Russia to fear them being there.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Why would this even be an issue since everything in Russia can be destroyed three times over with existing missiles?  There simply would be no reason to put them there and there would be no rational reason for Russia to fear them being there.


You aren’t aware of how the US Empire operates. They instigated the coup in Ukraine and allowed a civil war to fester there killing 14k people.  Then forced Putin to act by dumping the Minsk agreement, even though he warned for decades NATO in Ukraine is his red line. Then filled Ukraine with billions in weapons resulting in lots of dead civilians. They are are most ruthless. No?  Yes?

Nuke missiles seconds away has a way of imposing your will on your enemy.

Think about it.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Yeah Russia must believe no nukes will be put on their border, because there aren’t any right now. Logic from one who is incapable of logic.
> 
> Statist fascist imperialist warmongers. Ugh!



Ignoramus, did you even hear Putin talk about deep regret about dissolution of USSR? Relationship between Ukraine and Russia? That Ukraine is not a country? Did you hear him constantly facing himself as Peter the Great ||?

Must? It only "must" in your silly little know nothing head.

Ukraine's success as an open western democracy leads directly to Putin's failure as a long time Russian leader. It will highlight Russian stagnation under it's fundamentally illiberal, corrupt kleptocracy. It would show Russians what they could have been if they didn't let their little Peter run the show for 20 years and actually held a free and fair election once in a while.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Ignoramus, did you even hear Putin talk about deep regret about dissolution of USSR? Relationship between Ukraine and Russia? That Ukraine is not a country? Did you hear him constantly facing himself as Peter the Great ||?
> 
> Must? It only "must" in your silly little know nothing head.
> 
> Ukraine's success as an open western democracy leads directly to Putin's failure to secure himself a proud place in Russian history.


Lol. You really think Putin intends to take back the Soviet empire. Lol. He’s been in power 20 years doofus, but you think NOW he can do this with a second rate military.

Open democracy???…lmfao. You must be a CIA plant with that obvious lie.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You aren’t aware of how the US Empire operates. They instigated the coup in Ukraine and allowed a civil war to fester there killing 14k people.  Then forced Putin to act by dumping the Minsk agreement, even though he warned for decades NATO in Ukraine is his red line. Then filled Ukraine with billions in weapons resulting in lots of dead civilians. They are are most ruthless. No?  Yes?
> 
> Nuke missiles seconds away has a way of imposing your will on your enemy.
> 
> Think about it.


Again, you demonstrate uncommon stupidity and ignorance.  First, there was no coup.  Yanukovych was removed from office quite legally by the parliament.  Second, there was no civil war.  The separatist militias were Russian proxies formed by Russia to give Russia and excuse to attack Ukraine.   The Minsk agreement was no agreement at all.  It was signed under duress when Germany and France joined Russia in forcing Ukraine to sign.  

Again, there is no rational reason to place nukes in Ukraine or for Russia to fear them; there was no coup, Yanukovych was removed from office by the parliament quite legally; there was no civil war, just Russian proxies trying t provide an excuse for a Russian invasion; the Minsk agreement never had any validity.  

This war has only one cause, Putin is both stupid and crazy.  He has weakened Russia, strengthened NATO and set the Russian economy on a path to destruction, and there is no way Russia can win the war in Ukraine.  Putin's last desperate hope is the European children will freeze to death in their sleep and that will force Europe to end their opposition to Russia's imperialistic war in Ukraine, but Putin is stupid, and the Europeans will just wear extra sweaters this winter and come out of it more determined than ever to defeat Russia in Ukraine.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again, you demonstrate uncommon stupidity and ignorance.  First, there was no coup.  Yanukovych was removed from office quite legally by the parliament.  Second, there was no civil war.  The separatist militias were Russian proxies formed by Russia to give Russia and excuse to attack Ukraine.   The Minsk agreement was no agreement at all.  It was signed under duress when Germany and France joined Russia in forcing Ukraine to sign.
> 
> Again, there is no rational reason to place nukes in Ukraine or for Russia to fear them; there was no coup, Yanukovych was removed from office by the parliament quite legally; there was no civil war, just Russian proxies trying t provide an excuse for a Russian invasion; the Minsk agreement never had any validity.
> 
> This war has only one cause, Putin is both stupid and crazy.  He has weakened Russia, strengthened NATO and set the Russian economy on a path to destruction, and there is no way Russia can win the war in Ukraine.  Putin's last desperate hope is the European children will freeze to death in their sleep and that will force Europe to end their opposition to Russia's imperialistic war in Ukraine, but Putin is stupid, and the Europeans will just wear extra sweaters this winter and come out of it more determined than ever to defeat Russia in Ukraine.


You must be a CIA plant too.

Russia hasn’t been weakened as you’ve been lead to believe by the media and lying western leaders. Plus NATO hasn’t been strengthened, though you may think adding Sweden and Finland tiny nations with tiny militaries, strengthens NATO. Lol.

Putin is merely trying to defend his nation from an imperialist empire. He’s far from crazy, but you’re CRAZY.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You must be a CIA plant too.
> 
> Russia hasn’t been weakened as you’ve been lead to believe by the media and lying western leaders. Plus NATO hasn’t been strengthened, though you may think adding Sweden and Finland tiny nations with tiny militaries, strengthens NATO. Lol.
> 
> Putin is merely trying to defend his nation from an imperialist empire. He’s far from crazy, but you’re CRAZY.


You really have no idea how stupid you sound when you talk about western media, do you.  western media is made up of thousands and thousands of independent sources that often disagree with each other, but Russian media is made up of only one source, Putin, and no one dares to disagree with Putin.  In short, there is no news in Russia and western media is the best source of news for everyone no matter which side you are on.  

Not only is Russia weaker than before the war, but it is perceived as being much weaker.  The Ukrainians have fought the Russian military to a standstill and the question everyone is asking now is how long will it take to force the Russians to begin to withdraw.  

Even Putin was forced to acknowledge that the sanctions are a problem for Russia, and the Russian PM has said because of the sanctions the Russian economy is in a state of decline.  The Deputy PM told the parliament that the Russian military factories will not be able to produce weapons the military needs, so Russia is in fact weaker than it was before as well as being perceived as weaker.

When Russia threatens now, no one pays attention and NATO, which had been growing weaker is now stronger and more united than it had been in years because of Putin's stupid invasion.  Putin is both stupid and crazy and there is no rational scenario in which this ends well for Russia.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> You really have no idea how stupid you sound when you talk about western media, do you.  western media is made up of thousands and thousands of independent sources that often disagree with each other, but Russian media is made up of only one source, Putin, and no one dares to disagree with Putin.  In short, there is no news in Russia and western media is the best source of news for everyone no matter which side you are on.
> 
> Not only is Russia weaker than before the war, but it is perceived as being much weaker.  The Ukrainians have fought the Russian military to a standstill and the question everyone is asking now is how long will it take to force the Russians to begin to withdraw.
> 
> Even Putin was forced to acknowledge that the sanctions are a problem for Russia, and the Russian PM has said because of the sanctions the Russian economy is in a state of decline.  The Deputy PM told the parliament that the Russian military factories will not be able to produce weapons the military needs, so Russia is in fact weaker than it was before as well as being perceived as weaker.
> 
> When Russia threatens now, no one pays attention and NATO, which had been growing weaker is now stronger and more united than it had been in years because of Putin's stupid invasion.  Putin is both stupid and crazy and there is no rational scenario in which this ends well for Russia.


Propaganda.

Thinking the Ukrainians have stopped the Russians, is proof you know nothing. You stupidly think western media reports are giving you truthful information…lmfao.

Are you a CIA propaganda poster?

This will end with Russia in control of large sections of Ukraine, but only after the West has gotten lots of Ukrainian civilians killed and war profiteers have made billions.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol. You really think Putin intends to take back the Soviet empire. Lol. He’s been in power 20 years doofus, but you think NOW he can do this with a second rate military.
> 
> Open democracy???…lmfao. You must be a CIA plant with that obvious lie.



Wtf? He takes what he thinks he can get. *DUH *The false choice you are attempting to setup is laughable.

No he can't have USSR back, but his mindset is CLEARLY to do all he can to claw back some of the territories and maintain as much controll over setalite states as he can. He is an unrepentant imperialist who thinks the path to greatness first and foremost is expanding Russia's borders and sphere of influence, not improving livelyhood of his people.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Wtf? He takes what he thinks he can get. DUH.
> 
> No he can't have USSR back, but his mindset is CLEARLY to do all he can to claw back some of the territories and maintain as much controll over setalite states as he can. He is an imperialist who thinks his success is hinged on expanding Russia.


No. That’s not his mindset. You’ve been duped or you’re a CIA paid poster.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> No. That’s not his mindset.


Putin's OWN FUCKING WORDS disagree with you.

Maybe you have some special access to his thoughts, but I simply have his words and actions to go on.

So tell me, when did you start enjoying publicly felating Putin? It's really weird to see from someone who presents himself as all-American.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Propaganda.
> 
> Thinking the Ukrainians have stopped the Russians, is proof you know nothing. You stupidly think western media reports are giving you truthful information…lmfao.
> 
> Are you a CIA propaganda poster?
> 
> This will end with Russia in control of large sections of Ukraine, but only after the West has gotten lots of Ukrainian civilians killed and war profiteers have made billions.


There is no way Russia will make any gains from this war.  There can't be any truce of treaty that leaves Russia with any Ukrainian territory, including Crimea, because no one respects the Russian military anymore and no one trusts the Russian government.  The war will go on and the Russian economy and military will continue to shrink until Russia will have no choice but to withdraw.  The Soviet failure in Afghanistan played a large role in the breakup of the USSR and this failure of Russian arms in Ukraine will be much, much worse.


----------



## AntonToo

toomuchtime_ said:


> There is no way Russia will make any gains from this war.  There can't be any truce of treaty that leaves Russia with any Ukrainian territory, including Crimea, because no one respects the Russian military anymore and no one trusts the Russian government.  The war will go on and the Russian economy and military will continue to shrink until Russia will have no choice but to withdraw.  The Soviet failure in Afghanistan played a large role in the breakup of the USSR and this failure of Russian arms in Ukraine will be much, much worse.



When push comes to shove I don't think Ukraine will decline a compromise trade of Crimea-for-DNR/LNR.

Bigger problem is that Putin *CAN'T* make that offer and also survive politicly.

Putin is directly responsible:

1. started a bloody war.
2. cripled and isolated Russian economy
3. Expanded NATO and ensured Ukrane's complete rejection of Russia and binding with the EU.
4. Got tens of thousands of Russians killed/injured,

If he can't show gain for all that cost then he has only quick retirement/coffin to look forward to. Even his propaganda machine can't possibly make up for such catastrophic failures.

Macrone made himself look like an apeaser when he said that Putin needs to be afforded a save-face if this is to get resolved anytime soon, but there is truth to it.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Putin's OWN FUCKING WORDS disagree with you.
> 
> Maybe you have some special access to his thoughts, but I simply have his words and actions to go on.
> 
> So tell me, when did you start enjoying publicly felating Putin? It's really weird to see from someone who presents himself as all-American.


CIA!


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> There is no way Russia will make any gains from this war.  There can't be any truce of treaty that leaves Russia with any Ukrainian territory, including Crimea, because no one respects the Russian military anymore and no one trusts the Russian government.  The war will go on and the Russian economy and military will continue to shrink until Russia will have no choice but to withdraw.  The Soviet failure in Afghanistan played a large role in the breakup of the USSR and this failure of Russian arms in Ukraine will be much, much worse.


CIA!


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> CIA!


What about "CIA!" ? Can you coherently express yourself?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> What the hell does that mean?


I really need to explain it to you???  Do you even read my posts?

CENTAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.  Ever heard of it?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I really need to explain it to you???  Do you even read my posts?
> 
> CENTAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.  Ever heard of it?


Yes, moron I know what CIA is.

But there is NO WAY TO KNOW wtf you mean when you post "CIA!" as a response to what you quoted. You are not being coherent.


----------



## toomuchtime_

AntonToo said:


> When push comes to shove I don't think Ukraine will decline a compromise trade of Crimea-for-DNR/LNR.
> 
> Bigger problem is that Putin *CAN'T* make that offer and also survive politicly.
> 
> Putin is directly responsible:
> 
> 1. started a bloody war.
> 2. cripled and isolated Russian economy
> 3. Expanded NATO and ensured Ukrane's complete rejection of Russia and binding with the EU.
> 4. Got tens of thousands of Russians killed/injured,
> 
> If he can't show gain for all that cost then he has only quick retirement/coffin to look forward to. Even his propaganda machine can't possibly make up for such catastrophic failures.
> 
> Macrone made himself look like an apeaser when he said that Putin needs to be afforded a save-face if this is to get resolved anytime soon, but there is truth to it.


The only way Putin can win anything from this war is for Ukraine to sign a treaty with him, but the problem with making a deal with Putin is that no one expects him to live up to it.  If Ukraine were to agree to a compromise, the sanctions would end and Putin would be able to rebuild his army and build another "fortress economy" and in a few years he would present some more bullshit reasons to invade again, this time with reason to believe he would get another slice of Ukraine.  There can be no lasting peace unless Russia is defeated on the battlefield in Ukraine and in its economy at home.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yes, moron I know what CIA is.
> 
> But there is NO WAY TO KNOW wtf you mean when you post "CIA!" as a response to what you quoted. You are not being coherent.


It’s hard because we will never agree. I’m for peace and cooperation and you love war and confrontation....See?


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> The only way Putin can win anything from this war is for Ukraine to sign a treaty with him, but the problem with making a deal with Putin is that no one expects him to live up to it.  If Ukraine were to agree to a compromise, the sanctions would end and Putin would be able to rebuild his army and build another "fortress economy" and in a few years he would present some more bullshit reasons to invade again, this time with reason to believe he would get another slice of Ukraine.  There can be no lasting peace unless Russia is defeated on the battlefield in Ukraine and in its economy at home.


Nuke those MFers!  Kill those dirty Russkis…women and babies too!!!

UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER TO BENEFIT THE OLIGARCHY!!!

Yippee!!!


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> It’s hard because we will never agree. I’m for peace and cooperation and you love war and confrontation....See?



You are out of you fucking mind. That's the only way I can explain your silly ramblings.


----------



## AntonToo

toomuchtime_ said:


> The only way Putin can win anything from this war is for Ukraine to sign a treaty with him, but the problem with making a deal with Putin is that no one expects him to live up to it.  If Ukraine were to agree to a compromise, the sanctions would end and Putin would be able to rebuild his army and build another "fortress economy" and in a few years he would present some more bullshit reasons to invade again, this time with reason to believe he would get another slice of Ukraine.  There can be no lasting peace unless Russia is defeated on the battlefield in Ukraine and in its economy at home.



Not really. If territorial disputes are settled Ukraine will be fast tracked to joining NATO and at that point Russian invasion would trigger WW3.


----------



## toomuchtime_

AntonToo said:


> Not really. If territorial disputes are settled Ukraine will be fast tracked to joining NATO and at that point Russian invasion would trigger WW3.


This war was not over territorial disputes.  Putin sent his tanks in to go to Kyiv and install a puppet government just like the good old days of the USSR and unless he is defeated, that will remain his intention.  And I can't see Putin agreeing to allow NATO in Ukraine - that would be seen as a huge defeat for Russia.  Furthermore, while the US might want Ukraine in NATO, it is doubtful all 27 NATO members would agree, and if they did, it is doubtful they would all agree to go to war with Russia if Putin grabbed another piece of Ukraine.  No, the only way to lasting piece is to defeat Russia on the battlefield in Ukraine and to so degrade the Russian economy that Russia will not be able to wage war again.


----------



## AntonToo

toomuchtime_ said:


> This war was not over territorial disputes.  Putin sent his tanks in to go to Kyiv and install a puppet government just like the good old days of the USSR and unless he is defeated, that will remain his intention.  And I can't see Putin agreeing to allow NATO in Ukraine



NATO charter requires settlement of territorial desputes.

Territorial dispute is between Ukraine and Russia who holds control of Crimea , and also DNR/LNR.

We've allowed for scenario where Ukraine signs an agreement to let Russia take over Crimea in exchange for withdrawal from DNR/LNR. In this scenario Ukraine settles it's territorial integrity issues and assuming acceptance of some reforms will be admitted into NATO.

Any agreement that would preclude Ukraine joining NATO, just as other ex-USSR states have joined NATO, is a NON STARTER and would never be agreed to by Ukraine.

No reason Estonia and Litva can join NATO, but Ukraine can't.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> You don’t know what a sitting president means. It means the president at the time in question. Like Poppy CIA cucksucker Bush. Or BJ Bubba when he was getting BJs in the oval.
> 
> You aren’t an American are you?  What are you?
> 
> Would like the USG to nuke Russia?  Be honest.


Thanks for clarification, but I don't get how this disproves my point. This promise was given by Bush to Gorbachev when they both were presidents. This promise didn't have a legal basis. So, basically it was between the two.

Of course I am not an American. I think my English should reveal this clearly. Ukraine. I am from Ukraine. 

I don't want anyone to nuke Russia. I want an efficient military alliance to be set up in Europe to deter Russia, and I want Ukraine to be a part in it.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Thanks for clarification, but I don't get how this disproves my point. This promise was given by Bush to Gorbachev when they both were presidents. This promise didn't have a legal basis. So, basically it was between the two.
> 
> Of course I am not an American. I think my English should reveal this clearly. Ukraine. I am from Ukraine.
> 
> I don't want anyone to nuke Russia. I want an efficient military alliance to be set up in Europe to deter Russia, and I want Ukraine to be a part in it.


Okay. That explains everything.

Thanks for playing.


----------



## toomuchtime_

AntonToo said:


> NATO charter requires settlement of territorial desputes.
> 
> Territorial dispute is between Ukraine and Russia who holds control of Crimea , and also DNR/LNR.
> 
> We've allowed for scenario where Ukraine signs an agreement to let Russia take over Crimea in exchange for withdrawal from DNR/LNR. In this scenario Ukraine settles it's territorial integrity issues and assuming acceptance of some reforms will be admitted into NATO.
> 
> Any agreement that would preclude Ukraine joining NATO, just as other ex-USSR states have joined NATO, is a NON STARTER and would never be agreed to by Ukraine.
> 
> No reason Estonia and Litva can join NATO, but Ukraine can't.


You are being unrealistic.  There is no reason to think having NATO next door would suddenly become acceptable to Russia or that bringing Ukraine into NATO would suddenly become acceptable to the European countries that have refused to allow Ukraine to join for the last 14 years or that European countries would want to send their soldiers into war with Russia and make their cities targets for Russian bombs.  

It is highly doubtful that Russia would agree to any deal that would allow NATO in Ukraine or that all 30 NATO countries would agree to put their soldiers and cities at risk to save Ukraine.  Right now Ukraine serves as a buffer state between NATO and Russia and only Ukrainian soldiers and cities are at risk and that is the way the Europeans want it to stay.


----------



## AntonToo

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are being unrealistic.  There is no reason to think having NATO next door would suddenly become acceptable to Russia or that bringing Ukraine into NATO would suddenly become acceptable to the European countries that have refused to allow Ukraine to join for the last 14 years or that European countries would want to send their soldiers into war with Russia and make their cities targets for Russian bombs.
> 
> It is highly doubtful that Russia would agree to any deal that would allow NATO in Ukraine or that all 30 NATO countries would agree to put their soldiers and cities at risk to save Ukraine.  Right now Ukraine serves as a buffer state between NATO and Russia and only Ukrainian soldiers and cities are at risk and that is the way the Europeans want it to stay.




What do you mean "suddenly acceptable"? 

There are TODAY 3 NATO countries on Russian border. This is before Sweden and Finland joining shortly.

Their membership has been accepted just fine and so will Ukraine's, it's nothing but yet another Russian excuse to reject Ukranian sovereignty.


----------



## toomuchtime_

AntonToo said:


> What do you mean "suddenly acceptable"?
> 
> There are TODAY 3 NATO countries on Russian border. This is before Sweden and Finland joining shortly.
> 
> Their membership has been accepted just fine and so will Ukraine's, it's nothing but yet another Russian excuse to reject Ukranian sovereignty.


Exactly, Russia will not accept Ukrainian sovereignty until Russia has been soundly beaten in Ukraine and its economy has been so badly damaged it cannot afford to wage war.  At that point, there is no reason for Ukraine to give up Crimea.  Btw, Ukraine giving up its claim to Crimea to make a deal with Putin is the exact same deal Trump has been urging.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Okay. That explains everything.
> 
> Thanks for playing.


Not sure what 'playing' means in this context, but you are welcome.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> What do you mean "suddenly acceptable"?
> 
> There are TODAY 3 NATO countries on Russian border. This is before Sweden and Finland joining shortly.
> 
> Their membership has been accepted just fine and so will Ukraine's, it's nothing but yet another Russian excuse to reject Ukranian sovereignty.


Dissolve NATO. There is no need for it. The USSR died long ago. Of course, the war profiteers love NATO. So it will continue and cause more death and destruction.


----------



## georgephillip

Flash said:


> The government has lied to me many times in my life.
> 
> Like Biden saying the other day that more government spending for stupid things will stop inflation.  Remember when The Worthless Negro said that increased taxes are good for the economy? How about when he said it was a good thing to bomb Libyan civilians?  Remember when Slick Willy said he didn't have sex with that Lewinsky woman?  How about when The FBI Director said that Crooked Hillary was innocent because she had "no intent"?
> 
> The biggest lie from the government was when the 2020 stolen election was certified by traitors to the Republic.
> 
> The Russians have been assholes my entire life and I was born when Harry Truman was President.   They are being world class assholes now in Ukraine just like they have been other places in the world and I hope they get their asses kicked.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want the goddamn Russians to win then you can kiss my Cracker ass.


Did you vote for this liar?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Dissolve NATO. There is no need for it. The USSR died long ago. Of course, the war profiteers love NATO. So it will continue and cause more death and destruction.



Isn't it funny how you sound exactly like Kremlin shills?

USSR died long ago, Russians invading their neighbors is alive and well. *DUH*


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Isn't it funny how you sound exactly like Kremlin shills?
> 
> USSR died long ago, Russians invading their neighbors is alive and well. *DUH*


No. I sound like a sane logical person, which is why you dislike my opinions.  

The US has invaded nations all over the world, some thousands of miles away and some very close to the homeland. Why do you hate the US?


----------



## georgephillip

"Eastern Europe’s largest country is profoundly unstable. 

"Ukraine has been in a state of stress ever since it gained independence in 1991 due to multiple handicaps: its location in a contested borderland; its severe ethnic and cultural cleavages; and its lack of any prior experience of either statehood, democracy or free markets. 

"For ordinary people, the conditions of life are woeful. 

"Since Ukraine left the Soviet Union, real GDP per capita has fallen by a fifth, there are few economic opportunities and 60% of the population lives in poverty. 

"This has created an environment of permanent unresolved grievance which occasionally flares up into violence."

State Failure in Ukraine

In 2014 the US took advantage of unresolved grievances between a broad reformist citizenry centered largely in western Ukraine demanding closer ties with Europe and a more conservative constituency in the east and south which hoped to restore close trading relations with Russia.

Eight years later the only questions remaining are how long can the West keep the Ukrainian Army in the field and at what cost? Since Russian victory is a certainty, the West should stop feeding Ukraine's suicidal fantasy of rearming itself to victory.

Scott Ritter: The Fantasy of Fanaticism


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> No. I sound like a sane logical person, which is why you dislike my opinions.
> 
> The US has invaded


People making "Sane and logical" arguments don't play what-aboutism games, they DIRECTLY address what they quote.

You said there is no reason for NATO.

I explained to you that there is in fact a very clear reason - continued Russian invasions and threat that requires deterance via a defensive alliance. How many NATO countries did Russians invade? Zero.

Instead of refuting that NATO's mission is still very much relavant, you switch gears and try to steer conversation into what America has done. "Sane and logical"  it is not.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> "Eastern Europe’s largest country is profoundly unstable.
> 
> "Ukraine has been in a state of stress ever since it gained independence in 1991 due to multiple handicaps: its location in a contested borderland; its severe ethnic and cultural cleavages; and its lack of any prior experience of either statehood, democracy or free markets.
> 
> "For ordinary people, the conditions of life are woeful.
> 
> "Since Ukraine left the Soviet Union, real GDP per capita has fallen by a fifth, there are few economic opportunities and 60% of the population lives in poverty.
> 
> "This has created an environment of permanent unresolved grievance which occasionally flares up into violence."
> 
> State Failure in Ukraine
> 
> In 2014 the US took advantage of unresolved grievances between a broad reformist citizenry centered largely in western Ukraine demanding closer ties with Europe and a more conservative constituency in the east and south which hoped to restore close trading relations with Russia.
> 
> Eight years later the only questions remaining are how long can the West keep the Ukrainian Army in the field and at what cost? Since Russian victory is a certainty, the West should stop feeding Ukraine's suicidal fantasy of rearming itself to victory.
> 
> Scott Ritter: The Fantasy of Fanaticism


All of Ukraine's problems come from one source, Russia's efforts to undermine the institutions of state and to foment violence among various parties in order to try to get control of Ukraine.  

There is no rational scenario in which Russia wins in Ukraine.  Russia may destroy large parts of Ukraine but with mounting losses of men and materiel and its economy weakened and shrinking because of the sanctions, Russia is also destroying itself.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> People making "Sane and logical" arguments don't play what-aboutism games, they DIRECTLY address what they quote.
> 
> You said there is no reason for NATO.
> 
> I explained to you that there is in fact a very clear reason - continued Russian invasions and threat that requires deterance via a defensive alliance. How many NATO countries on it's border did Russians invade? Zero is the right answer.
> 
> Instead of refuting that NATO's mission is still very much relavant, you switch gears and try to steer conversation into what America has done. "Sane and logical"  it is not.


There are no continued Russian invasions. Why lie?  Oh yeah. It’s a. IA thing. 

US invasions happen all the time and you love them. Why not Russian invasions?

Hey Ton, did you hear old Joe bombed Syria?  Yeah thought so. Third potus in a row to bomb there. No doubt you love it.
U.S. launches airstrikes in Syria against Iran-backed groups


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> There are no continued Russian invasions. Why lie?



...you say that on day 188 of full on Russian invasion of Ukraine.

That is REALLY not "sane and logical", and in fact begs the question: What the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> ...you say that on day 188 of full on Russian invasion of Ukraine.
> 
> That is REALLY not "sane and logical", and in fact begs the question: What the fuck is wrong with you?


Yes we know you know nothing but what the establishment tells you. Russia invaded. The USG invades all the time. They just bombed Syria again. Can you believe it?  Oh the humanity!!!

When are you going to demand they stop?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> There are no continued Russian invasions. Why lie?





gipper said:


> Russia invaded.



Does that look "sane and logical" to you Gipper?

You can't seem to put togather any coherent, direct refutes. You keep posting contradictory, insane nonsense, so what is it that makes you think you are "sane and logical"? Seems to be just a forgone conclusion your ego has about yourself. I don't think you are sane or logical.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> All of Ukraine's problems come from one source, Russia's efforts to undermine the institutions of state and to foment violence among various parties in order to try to get control of Ukraine.
> 
> There is no rational scenario in which Russia wins in Ukraine.  Russia may destroy large parts of Ukraine but with mounting losses of men and materiel and its economy weakened and shrinking because of the sanctions, Russia is also destroying itself.


All of Ukraine's problems come from the same source as all of Iraq's, Syria's, Libya's, and Afghanistan's problems; an arrogant, fading militaristic empire which knows its best days are long gone. 

Don't want to believe it? 

Just ask Victoria:




Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> All of Ukraine's problems come from the same source as all of Iraq's, Syria's, Libya's, and Afghanistan's problems; an arrogant, fading militaristic empire which knows its best days are long gone.
> 
> Don't want to believe it?
> 
> Just ask Victoria:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


Yes the empire’s days are numbered and it knows it. This might mean it’s at its most dangerous. It just might decide to instigate a big war in the hopes of saving itself.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Does that look "sane and logical" to you Gipper?
> 
> You can't seem to put togather any coherent, direct refutes. You keep posting contradictory, insane nonsense, so what is it that makes you think you are "sane and logical"? Seems to be just a forgone conclusion your ego has about yourself. I don't think you are sane or logical.


Answer the question. Why do you support the USG’s constant wars, but disapprove of Russia’s war on its border?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Answer the question. Why do you support the USG’s constant wars, but disapprove of Russia’s war on its border?



Not sure what exactly you mean by "USG", but I, like many others opposed some wars Americans were involved in.

I do belive some wars are justified, others, like this Russian invasion and annexation of Ukrainian land are acts of atrocity.

* That does not in any shape or form refute NATO's mission.*


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> All of Ukraine's problems come from the same source as all of Iraq's, Syria's, Libya's, and Afghanistan's problems; an arrogant, fading militaristic empire which knows its best days are long gone.
> 
> Don't want to believe it?
> 
> Just ask Victoria:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call





georgephillip said:


> All of Ukraine's problems come from the same source as all of Iraq's, Syria's, Libya's, and Afghanistan's problems; an arrogant, fading militaristic empire which knows its best days are long gone.
> 
> Don't want to believe it?
> 
> Just ask Victoria:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


Are you trying to sound stupid or does it just come naturally to you?   The US wanted to see a free, independent Ukraine and the EU wanted to sell out Ukraine for cheap Russian gas and oil.  The EU won and joined forces with Russia to strong arm Ukraine into signing the Minsk agreement and that's what emboldened Putin to invade again.  What are you?  Some kind of Russian imperialist?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Not sure what exactly you mean by "USG", but I, like many others opposed some wars Americans were involved in.
> 
> I do belive some wars are justified, others, like this Russian invasion and annexation of Ukrainian land are acts of atrocity.
> 
> * That does not in any shape or form refute NATO's mission.*


Oh!  You aren’t an American.

Killing one million Iraqis based on a lie…that’s not problem for you. But Russia protecting their interests…well that’s an atrocity!!!

Are you Ukrainian?  That would explain your ridiculous posts.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Oh!  You aren’t an American.



Yes I am, retard.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Killing one million Iraqis based on a lie…that’s not problem for you.


I opposed it from day one bullshit peddler, though that "million" number is just nonsense, *especially* considering how many people would be dead by now with Saddam still in power.

*NONE OF THAT REFUTES NATO'S MISSION.*


----------



## EvilCat Breath

The Ukraine situation is a bit unsettling.  It isn't really as clear cut as the media wants to make it.

I've not only known people from Ukraine,  my partner's family was from Ukraine and a very good friend of mine is from Ukraine.   They always considered themselves Russian.   There was a part of Ukraine that wanted to be part of the EU.  They spoke Belarusian and actually criminalized speaking Russian.  Even though they knew that Russia would never permit the EU on its doorstep.  Those who considered themselves ethnically Russian, hated the others and considered them Nazis.

So, it's just not that easy to pick a side.


----------



## skye

Ukrainians  are Nazis.

I don't like Nazis

I'm with those who fight Nazis.

That's my opinion.


----------



## AntonToo

skye said:


> Ukrainians  are Nazis.


Where did you get that stupid, ignorant idea? Uncle Putin told you?


----------



## skye

AntonToo said:


> Where did you get that stupid, ignorant idea? Uncle Putin told you?




you know.....it's up to you to study history....to know what's going on.....I can only show  you the way  of what's going on in Ukraine


----------



## AntonToo

skye said:


> you know.....it's up to you to study history....to know what's going on.....I can only show  you the way  of what's going on in Ukraine
> 
> View attachment 689455



You know, for some one so ignorant and stupid you sure have a lot to say about what other people ought to study. Give it a rest and just put up an argument worth a damn.


I can show you a handful of swastika sporting morons in any country.






So by your brilliant standard of evidence America = Nazis you don;t like and you therefore you side with those fighting against America


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> I opposed it from day one bullshit peddler, though that "million" number is just nonsense, *especially* considering how many people would be dead by now with Saddam still in power.
> 
> *NONE OF THAT REFUTES NATO'S MISSION.*


As you know, NATO shouldn’t exist. The USSR died long ago.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yes I am, retard.


Doubt it.


----------



## sparky

peacefan said:


> and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.


it's already happened by proxy....


JoeB131 said:


> The best solution would be Russians realizing Putin is kind of a dick, overthrowing him, returning to Democracy, and politely apologizing to the rest of the world.


and if the _world _realized our installed dictator Mr* Z* was a _d*ck_, would the USA fare _better_ apologizing for it all Joe?


Flash said:


> NATO is a defensive military alliance.


Not to the Russians

~S~


----------



## Flash

sparky said:


> it's already happened by proxy....
> 
> and if the _world _realized our installed dictator Mr* Z* was a _d*ck_, would the USA fare _better_ apologizing for it all Joe?
> 
> Not to the Russians
> 
> ~S~


The Russians are confused about NATO being a defensive alliance because they are paranoid about everything.


----------



## sparky

Flash said:


> The Russian are confused about NATO being a defensive alliance because they are paranoid about everything.


from WIKI>>>

NATO members include around *3.5 million soldiers* and personnel. Their combined military spending as of 2020 constituted over 57 percent of the global nominal total. Members have agreed that their aim is to reach or maintain the target defense spending of at least two percent of their GDP by 2024









						NATO - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




NATO's history is _revealing_ of it's construct Flash

~S~


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Yes the empire’s days are numbered and it knows it. This might mean it’s at its most dangerous. It just might decide to instigate a big war in the hopes of saving itself.


The empire's economic policies operate on two different levels.
In public the word "we" gets used a lot as "we are all in this together."
Privately, insiders work to boost employers profits at public expense.
Nothing does that better than war




"Inflation, that 'problem' torturing capitalist economies these days, offers us the first example of such policies. 

"Inflation is a general increase in prices. 

"Employers, not employees, decide the prices to charge for whatever goods and services their employees’ labor produces. 

"Employers are at most 1 percent of the population while employees and their families constitute most of the other 99 percent. 

"That 1 percent is not accountable to the other 99 percent of the population. Inflations directly impact—reduce—the standards of living of the 99 percent."

AUGUST 31, 2022
Behind the ‘Economic Policy’ Façade, It’s Class War​BY RICHARD D. WOLFF


----------



## gipper




----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> You know, for some one so ignorant and stupid you sure have a lot to say about what other people ought to study. Give it a rest and just put up an argument worth a damn.
> 
> 
> I can show you a handful of swastika sporting morons in any country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So by your brilliant standard of evidence America = Nazis you don;t like and you therefore you side with those fighting against America


If only you were objective. You’re a Ukrainian so you can’t be objective.

Here is more logic to blow your slanted mind, this fine morning. 

_The true evil in this war is not Putin who is trying to protect his country, or the brave non Nazi Ukrainian soldiers defending theirs

It's the Biden's Admin using Ukrainians to fight their proxy war to try to weaken Russia and US puppet Zelensky sacrificing his people for them._


----------



## gipper

Flash said:


> The Russians are confused about NATO being a defensive alliance because they are paranoid about everything.


Except it isn’t defensive. Dupe!


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> As you know, NATO shouldn’t exist. The USSR died long ago.



No moron, I don't know that as I explained to you already. I guess no one is home to get a clue.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Are you trying to sound stupid or does it just come naturally to you?   The US wanted to see a free, independent Ukraine and the EU wanted to sell out Ukraine for cheap Russian gas and oil.  The EU won and joined forces with Russia to strong arm Ukraine into signing the Minsk agreement and that's what emboldened Putin to invade again.  What are you?  Some kind of Russian imperialist?


The US wanted "a free and independent Ukraine" the same way it wanted freedom and independence for Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan. The US wanted to control the government of a state on the border with Russia as Victoria Nuland's phone call confirmed:

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

_"Nuland:_ [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work."


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> No moron, I don't know that as I explained to you already. I guess no one is home to get a clue.


Just trying to help.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> If only you were objective. You’re a Ukrainian so you can’t be objective.
> 
> Here is more logic to blow your slanted mind, this fine morning.
> 
> _The true evil in this war is not Putin who is trying to protect his country, or the brave non Nazi Ukrainian soldiers defending theirs
> 
> It's the Biden's Admin using Ukrainians to fight their proxy war to try to weaken Russia and US puppet Zelensky sacrificing his people for them._



I am not Ukranian. I am an American citizen who was born in, and immigrated from Russia.

I guess it takes more intelligence than you have to not constantly post bullshit.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> I am not Ukranian. I am an American citizen who was born in, and immigrated from Russia.
> 
> I guess it takes more intelligence than you have to not constantly post bullshit.


There it is. I knew it.


----------



## Flash

gipper said:


> Except it isn’t defensive. Dupe!


We will have to agree to disagree on this.

However, there isn't even a need for NATO anymore seeing that the Russian conventional forces are mostly a joke.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You’re a Ukrainian





AntonToo said:


> I am not Ukranian.





gipper said:


> There it is. I knew it.










I'm clearly dealing with a total fucking loon. Time for ignore.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> The US wanted "a free and independent Ukraine" the same way it wanted freedom and independence for Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan. The US wanted to control the government of a state on the border with Russia as Victoria Nuland's phone call confirmed:
> 
> Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call
> 
> _"Nuland:_ [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work."


If you had a properly functioning brain, you would understand there is nothing in that quote to suggest the US wanted to control Ukraine and if you were paying attention to what was going on, you would understand that Russia's clear intention was to control Ukraine by military force if Ukraine didn't submit to Russia's demands.  You don't seem to understand what the word, border, means.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> I'm clearly dealing with a total fucking loon. Time for ignore.


Thank you Uke.


----------



## gipper

Flash said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this.
> 
> However, there isn't even a need for NATO anymore seeing that the Russian conventional forces are mostly a joke.


Lol. Disagreeing on FACTS makes one dumb.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> The US wanted "a free and independent Ukraine" the same way it wanted freedom and independence for Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan. The US wanted to control the government of a state on the border with Russia as Victoria Nuland's phone call confirmed:
> 
> Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call
> 
> _"Nuland:_ [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work."


Things the warmongers ignore.


----------



## Flash

gipper said:


> Lol. Disagreeing on FACTS makes one dumb.




You don't have facts.   You get a lot of things right but occasionally you go off the deep end and spew shit out your ass that has no foundation in reality.

I have never been a proponent of US interventionism in European affairs including supporting the NATO welfare machine.  Europeans need to provide their own security.

However, NATO was created as a defensive alliance against the potential of further post WWII Soviet expansion.  The Soviets had a hellva record in Eastern Europe.  They were a threat.

You may argue that it was none of our business to protect Europe and be a part of an anti Soviet alliance and I would agree with you.  You can't argue that NATO is not a defensive alliance against the Russian Bear.  Well you can but you would be wrong.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> If you had a properly functioning brain, you would understand there is nothing in that quote to suggest the US wanted to control Ukraine and if you were paying attention to what was going on, you would understand that Russia's clear intention was to control Ukraine by military force if Ukraine didn't submit to Russia's demands.  You don't seem to understand what the word, border, means.


Here's a border even MAGA simpletons can understand




Did you notice any American borders on this map, Moron?
When Nuland selected Yatseniuk in 2014 as the next prime minister of Ukraine, she was helping install a hostile government in a country bordering Russia. Anyone should know how that was received in Moscow. Eight years later millions of Ukrainians are being killed, maimed, and displaced by America's latest failed attempt at regime change in Moscow.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Here's a border even MAGA simpletons can understand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you notice any American borders on this map, Moron?
> When Nuland selected Yatseniuk in 2014 as the next prime minister of Ukraine, she was helping install a hostile government in a country bordering Russia. Anyone should know how that was received in Moscow. Eight years later millions of Ukrainians are being killed, maimed, and displaced by America's latest failed attempt at regime change in Moscow.


Again, nothing but brain farts from you.  Nuland did not select anyone, the US favored some Ukrainian politicians over others after the traitorous Yanukovych was dismissed by the Ukrainian parliament but there is no evidence to suggest the US had the power or influence to determine who would win the election.  The new president, Poroshenko, was not hostile to Russia, he was simply not submissive to Putin's whims the way Yanukovych has been.  

You and Putin clearly believe the Ukrainian people must do what is best for Russia rather than what is best for themselves and threaten to kill them if they do not obey.  It is in this sense that it is clear you do not understand what the word, border, means: Russia ends at its border with Ukraine and has no right to cross that border unless it is being attacked.  

Btw, the number of Ukrainians killed in this war number in the thousands or perhaps in the low tens of thousands, but they only number in the millions in your twisted bloodthirsty fantasies.  By spring, even someone as dimwitted and bigoted as you will see that there is no way Russia can win this war no matter how many Ukrainians they slaughter, and there is no way Russia can survive their battlefield losses and the sanctions that will not end.


----------



## gipper

Flash said:


> You don't have facts.   You get a lot of things right but occasionally you go off the deep end and spew shit out your ass that has no foundation in reality.
> 
> I have never been a proponent of US interventionism in European affairs including supporting the NATO welfare machine.  Europeans need to provide their own security.
> 
> However, NATO was created as a defensive alliance against the potential of further post WWII Soviet expansion.  The Soviets had a hellva record in Eastern Europe.  They were a threat.
> 
> You may argue that it was none of our business to protect Europe and be a part of an anti Soviet alliance and I would agree with you.  You can't argue that NATO is not a defensive alliance against the Russian Bear.  Well you can but you would be wrong.


Why bring up the USSR?  It died without bloodshed long ago. Aren’t you aware of this?

I suspect the Serbs and Libyans would tell you to shove that BS about NATO being a “defensive alliance” right up your ass.

Facts are stubborn things.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again, nothing but brain farts from you.  Nuland did not select anyone, the US favored some Ukrainian politicians over others after the traitorous Yanukovych was dismissed by the Ukrainian parliament but there is no evidence to suggest the US had the power or influence to determine who would win the election.  The new president, Poroshenko, was not hostile to Russia, he was simply not submissive to Putin's whims the way Yanukovych has been.
> 
> You and Putin clearly believe the Ukrainian people must do what is best for Russia rather than what is best for themselves and threaten to kill them if they do not obey.  It is in this sense that it is clear you do not understand what the word, border, means: Russia ends at its border with Ukraine and has no right to cross that border unless it is being attacked.
> 
> Btw, the number of Ukrainians killed in this war number in the thousands or perhaps in the low tens of thousands, but they only number in the millions in your twisted bloodthirsty fantasies.  By spring, even someone as dimwitted and bigoted as you will see that there is no way Russia can win this war no matter how many Ukrainians they slaughter, and there is no way Russia can survive their battlefield losses and the sanctions that will not end.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


>


Nothing but bullshit from you again.  Ukraine's present borders were formally recognized by Russia in 1994, and at that time Russia pledged to never violate those borders unless attacked by Ukraine.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Nothing but bullshit from you again.  Ukraine's present borders were formally recognized by Russia in 1994, and at that time Russia pledged to never violate those borders unless attacked by Ukraine.


The US and NATO pledged never to expand eastward, after the fall of the USSR. I guess they lied just like Russia, but they lied first.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> The US and NATO pledged never to expand eastward, after the fall of the USSR. I guess they lied just like Russia, but they lied first.


Once again nothing but lies from you.  The only negotiations concerned East Germany and that agreement is still being upheld.  There were no negotiations and no pledges made about preventing eastern European countries from joining NATO.  Jim Baker, the first President Bush's Secretary of State stated that that that administration would not allow former Soviet states to join NATO, although it would have been an abuse of power to prevent it if any had applied, but if you were not a complete idiot you would know that no US president can agree to anything that comes after he leaves office, and Clinton was under no obligation to carry Bush's policy forward.  Even if you are too stupid and ignorant to know this, Gorbachev certainly did.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *toomuchtime*
> Once again nothing but lies from you. The only negotiations concerned East Germany and that agreement is still being upheld. There were no negotiations and no pledges made about preventing eastern European countries from joining NATO. Jim Baker, the first President Bush's Secretary of State stated that that that administration would not allow former Soviet states to join NATO, although it would have been an abuse of power to prevent it if any had applied, but if you were not a complete idiot you would know that no US president can agree to anything that comes after he leaves office, and Clinton was under no obligation to carry Bush's policy forward. Even if you are too stupid and ignorant to know this, Gorbachev certainly did.



Now bear the consequences of bullying a country that unlike Iraq and Afghanistan can actually defend itself.


----------



## toomuchtime_

José said:


> Now bear the consequences of bullying a country that unlike Iraq and Afghanistan can actually defend itself.


You are deeply confused.  Russia is trying to bully Ukraine and the US is helping Ukraine to defend itself against Russia's imperialist aggressions.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Once again nothing but lies from you.  The only negotiations concerned East Germany and that agreement is still being upheld.  There were no negotiations and no pledges made about preventing eastern European countries from joining NATO.  Jim Baker, the first President Bush's Secretary of State stated that that that administration would not allow former Soviet states to join NATO, although it would have been an abuse of power to prevent it if any had applied, but if you were not a complete idiot you would know that no US president can agree to anything that comes after he leaves office, and Clinton was under no obligation to carry Bush's policy forward.  Even if you are too stupid and ignorant to know this, Gorbachev certainly did.


Once again you’re uninformed. What a surprise.

Promises where made never to expand NATO to the east of Germany, by American leaders. Look it up.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *toomuchtime*
> You are deeply confused. Russia is trying to bully Ukraine and the US is helping Ukraine to defend itself against Russia's imperialist aggressions.



I see...

The act of surrounding a country with a military alliance is not a hostile act, it's a pure manisfestation of love, friendship and fraternity...

That's why Israel has been begging since its creation for western countries to establish a mutual defence pact with Lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, surrounding all the borders of the jewish state.

Nothing says pacifist intentions like a good, old military alliance surrounding your country.


----------



## g5000

peacefan said:


> it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.
> 
> and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).


Congratulations, comrade.  You've just used the exact same argument Hitler used to invade Czechoslavakia.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Once again you’re uninformed. What a surprise.
> 
> Promises where made never to expand NATO to the east of Germany, by American leaders. Look it up.


There is nothing to look up because NATO promised nothing and Jim Baker's statement only applied to the first Biden administration.  Again you demonstrate spectacular ignorance.  The agreement over East Germany, which was a formal written agreement specified that only German troops could be stationed in East Germany and not any other NATO troops and it is still in force today.  

You may be too stupid and ignorant to know that except for a formal treaty which was approved by 2/3 of the Senate, no agreement by any US president is binding on future US presidents, which is why it was so easy for Trump to withdraw from Obama's agreement with Iran, but Gorbachev had foreign policy advisors who did understand it and that is why there was never any negotiation concerning whether NATO would accept former Soviet states.


----------



## toomuchtime_

José said:


> I see...
> 
> The act of surrounding a country with a military alliance is not a hostile act, it's a pure manisfestation of love, friendship and fraternity...
> 
> That's why Israel has been begging since its creation for western countries to establish a mutual defence pact with Lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, surrounding all the borders of the jewish state.
> 
> Nothing says pacifist intentions like a good, old military alliance surrounding your country.


Russia is not surrounded by NATO states.  Get yourself a map.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *toomuchtime*
> Russia is not surrounded by NATO states. Get yourself a map.



Neither would Israel in the hypothetical example I gave above. 

They would still have their "border" with the Mediterranean sea not surrounded by Nato troops. : )

Now go find someone else to play dumb with.

You know perfectly well I'm referring to Russia's western borders, where Moscow, where european Russia, where the heart of the country lies.


----------



## José

The only reason European Russia is not 100% surrounded by NATO is exactly Russia's defensive measures taken in the last 30 years in Belarus, Ukraine and Georgia.

The same measures you use to lambast Russia so much.

You cannot present this fact as coming out of the goodness of Nato's heart.

Russia is the sole responsible for not finding herself surrounded by America and her lackeys.

Can't have your cake and eat it.


----------



## toomuchtime_

José said:


> Neither would Israel in the hypothetical example I gave above.
> 
> They would still have their "border" with the Mediterranean sea not surrounded by Nato troops. : )
> 
> Now go find someone else to play dumb with.
> 
> You know perfectly well I'm referring to Russia's western borders, where Moscow, where european Russia, where the heart of the country lies.


You shouldn't exaggerate by claiming Russia is surrounded by NATO when you know it's not true.  Russia has borders with four NATO member state, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and a tiny border with northern Norway and these borders have never posed any threat to Russia's security.  If you actually had any interest in this topic, you would ask yourself why all these states were so eager to join NATO.  If you did you would find out it was because of Russia's long history of treachery and aggression against its neighbors.  Instead of whining that no one trusts him, Putin should be apologizing for not being trustworthy.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


>


Read some actual history, you ignorant prick. The Cossack Hetmanate. If you want to know what borders 'Ukraine' had in 1654.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again, nothing but brain farts from you. Nuland did not select anyone, the US favored some Ukrainian politicians over others after the traitorous Yanukovych was dismissed by the Ukrainian parliament


Nuland selected Yatseniuk for prime minister, and he became prime minister. Can you connect those dots? If the US "favored some Ukrainian politicians" does that suggest the US meddled in the election of a sovereign state on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland (again)?

Yanukovych fled Kyiv one day after an agreement had been reached with the country's opposition. This opposition that murdered police officers in support of an illegal coup the US helped plan and support.

US puppets have ruled Ukraine ever since, and they are solely responsible for the killing happening there today.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> ou and Putin clearly believe the Ukrainian people must do what is best for Russia rather than what is best for themselves and threaten to kill them if they do not obey. It is in this sense that it is clear you do not understand what the word, border, means: Russia ends at its border with Ukraine and has no right to cross that border unless it is being attacked.


Putin knows the US regularly meddles in the internal politics of states like Ukraine in order to enhance arms sales to NATO countries. 

He fully understands how Victoria Nuland selected the prime minister that replaced a duly elected president in 2014, and he will not tolerate a NATO armed and trained state on his western border.

Since 1945 and certainly since the end of the USSR there has been only one imperial power and that is the US. Millions of innocent human beings have been murdered, maimed, and displaced by the US over those years, and it is happening again in Ukraine.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Nuland selected Yatseniuk for prime minister, and he became prime minister. Can you connect those dots? If the US "favored some Ukrainian politicians" does that suggest the US meddled in the election of a sovereign state on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland (again)?
> 
> Yanukovych fled Kyiv one day after an agreement had been reached with the country's opposition. This opposition that murdered police officers in support of an illegal coup the US helped plan and support.
> 
> US puppets have ruled Ukraine ever since, and they are solely responsible for the killing happening there today.


The US had an opinion on which politician would be best for Ukraine to maintain its independence from Russia and discussed its opinions with Ukrainian politicians.  That was the extent of US "meddling".  Yanukovych was removed from office by an overwhelming vote in the Ukrainian parliament on the grounds he was unable to perform his duties.  The demonstrations against Yanukovych were huge but not violent until he ordered the police to fire into the crowds and then they became violent.  He had tried to be a Putin puppet like Lukashenko but the Ukrainian people would have none of it.  In any case, if Russia had been a civilized country this would not have been seen as grounds to break its 1994 pledge not to violate Ukraine's borders.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Putin knows the US regularly meddles in the internal politics of states like Ukraine in order to enhance arms sales to NATO countries.
> 
> He fully understands how Victoria Nuland selected the prime minister that replaced a duly elected president in 2014, and he will not tolerate a NATO armed and trained state on his western border.
> 
> Since 1945 and certainly since the end of the USSR there has been only one imperial power and that is the US. Millions of innocent human beings have been murdered, maimed, and displaced by the US over those years, and it is happening again in Ukraine.


I get it.  You don't like the US and you enjoy watching Russians kill Ukrainians.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Btw, the number of Ukrainians killed in this war number in the thousands or perhaps in the low tens of thousands, but they only number in the millions in your twisted bloodthirsty fantasies.


How many Ukrainians have been displaced by US meddling in their internal affairs, more than Syrians, Afghanis, Iraqis, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Koreans?

Ukraine's battlefield losses are  unsustainable despite what your corporate media tells you:

Scott Ritter: The Fantasy of Fanaticism

"Mykhaylo Podolyak, a senior aid to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, recently estimated that *Ukraine was losing between 100 and 200 soldiers a day on the frontlines with Russia, and another 500 or so wounded. *

"These are unsustainable losses, brought on by the ongoing disparity in combat capability between Russia and Ukraine symbolized, but not limited to, artillery.

"In recognition of this reality, NATO Secretary General Jen Stoltenberg announced that Ukraine will more than likely have to make territorial concessions to Russia as part of any potential peace agreement, asking,

*"'what price are you willing to pay for peace? How much territory, how much independence, how much sovereignty…are you willing to sacrifice for peace?'"*


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> How many Ukrainians have been displaced by US meddling in their internal affairs, more than Syrians, Afghanis, Iraqis, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Koreans?
> 
> Ukraine's battlefield losses are  unsustainable despite what your corporate media tells you:
> 
> Scott Ritter: The Fantasy of Fanaticism
> 
> "Mykhaylo Podolyak, a senior aid to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, recently estimated that *Ukraine was losing between 100 and 200 soldiers a day on the frontlines with Russia, and another 500 or so wounded. *
> 
> "These are unsustainable losses, brought on by the ongoing disparity in combat capability between Russia and Ukraine symbolized, but not limited to, artillery.
> 
> "In recognition of this reality, NATO Secretary General Jen Stoltenberg announced that Ukraine will more than likely have to make territorial concessions to Russia as part of any potential peace agreement, asking,
> 
> *"'what price are you willing to pay for peace? How much territory, how much independence, how much sovereignty…are you willing to sacrifice for peace?'"*


If he said it, it was a very foolish thing to say.  At this point no one in his right mind would trust Putin to abide by any agreement so there can be no deal and there will be no territorial concessions.  This war can only end when Russia's battlefield losses become unsustainable and the Russian economy is so damaged that it cannot sustain any war.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Nothing but bullshit from you again.  Ukraine's present borders were formally recognized by Russia in 1994, and at that time Russia pledged to never violate those borders unless attacked by Ukraine.


And when Ukraine became a de facto NATO member that agreement was violated:




"The switch to the U.S. cannon has effects that spread beyond the battlefield as it better aligns Ukrainian forces with partners in the West, (Ukraine Defense Minister Oleksii) Reznikov said.

"The minister said learning the western systems represents a step toward his goal to '*integrate Ukraine into NATO de facto.'*

"'Gradually, this will ensure full compatibility of the Ukrainian army with the armies of NATO countries, which will become a significant reinforcement of the eastern flank of the alliance,' he said in the statement." 

More than half of the 90 US howitzers bound for Ukraine now delivered


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are deeply confused.  Russia is trying to bully Ukraine and the US is helping Ukraine to defend itself against Russia's imperialist aggressions.


The US is fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood just as it's done since Operation Red Sox in 1949.

The Complexities of the Ukraine Dilemma


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Russia is not surrounded by NATO states.  Get yourself a map.







Where's your map showing Russian bases around the US?


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> And when Ukraine became a de facto NATO member that agreement was violated:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The switch to the U.S. cannon has effects that spread beyond the battlefield as it better aligns Ukrainian forces with partners in the West, (Ukraine Defense Minister Oleksii) Reznikov said.
> 
> "The minister said learning the western systems represents a step toward his goal to '*integrate Ukraine into NATO de facto.'*
> 
> "'Gradually, this will ensure full compatibility of the Ukrainian army with the armies of NATO countries, which will become a significant reinforcement of the eastern flank of the alliance,' he said in the statement."
> 
> More than half of the 90 US howitzers bound for Ukraine now delivered


You just pay no attention at all to the meaning of the words you use.  There is no meaning to "de facto NATO member".  For you, any excuse to kill Ukrainians is a good excuse.  Ukraine applied for NATO membership back in 2008 after Putin invaded Georgia but France and Germany have been steadfast in refusing to even consider it because, they said, it might hurt Putin's feelings.  Your argument that Russia has the right to invade Ukraine and kill thousands of Ukrainian people because it doesn't like the way Ukraine handles its internal affairs explains why no one in his  right mind would sign any agreement with Russia.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> And when Ukraine became a de facto NATO member that agreement was violated:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The switch to the U.S. cannon has effects that spread beyond the battlefield as it better aligns Ukrainian forces with partners in the West, (Ukraine Defense Minister Oleksii) Reznikov said.
> 
> "The minister said learning the western systems represents a step toward his goal to '*integrate Ukraine into NATO de facto.'*
> 
> "'Gradually, this will ensure full compatibility of the Ukrainian army with the armies of NATO countries, which will become a significant reinforcement of the eastern flank of the alliance,' he said in the statement."
> 
> More than half of the 90 US howitzers bound for Ukraine now delivered


There wasn't any agreement that prohibited Ukraine joining NATO, you idiot.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> The US is fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood just as it's done since Operation Red Sox in 1949.
> 
> The Complexities of the Ukraine Dilemma


Ukrainians choose for themselves.

Ukranians *choose *to defend their homeland and fight Russian invasion, *they begged EU/US for support and thank us for all we provide.*

Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.


Here is a crazy idea - If Russia's leadership doesn't want their regime threatened they should abstain from conducting bloody, economically disasterous invasions and work to make their people's lives better instead of ruining them.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Ukrainians choose for themselves.
> 
> Ukranians *choose *to defend their homeland and fight Russian invasion, *they begged EU/US for support and thank us for all we provide.*
> 
> Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.
> 
> 
> Here is a crazy idea - If Russia's leadership doesn't want their regime threatened they should abstain from conducting bloody, economically disasterous invasions and work to make their people's lives better instead of ruining them.


It appears they had a tentative peace agreement in April, but the West killed it. So they keep killing Ukrainians. 

_Despite calls by some for a negotiated settlement that would involve Ukrainian territorial concessions, Putin seems uninterested in a compromise that would leave Ukraine as a sovereign, independent state—whatever its borders. *According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries. *But as Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated in a July interview with his country’s state media, this compromise is no longer an option. Even giving Russia all of the Donbas is not enough. “Now the geography is different,” Lavrov asserted, in describing Russia’s short-term military aims. “It’s also Kherson and the Zaporizhzhya regions and a number of other territories.” The goal is not negotiation, but Ukrainian capitulation_
archive.ph

Report: Russia, Ukraine Tentatively Agreed on Peace Deal in April​*Boris Johnson arrived in Kyiv not long after the talks and told Zelensky not to negotiate with Russia, saying the West wasn't ready to sign a dealby Dave DeCamp Posted on August 31, 2022Categories NewsTags Russia, Ukraine
Russian and Ukrainian officials tentatively agreed on a potential peace deal during negotiations back in April 2022, according to a Foreign Affairs article by Fiona Hill and Angela Stent that cited former US officials.*
The article reads: “According to multiple former senior US officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement.”
The terms of that settlement would have been for Russia to withdraw to the positions it held before launching the invasion on February 24. In exchange, Ukraine would “promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”
The tentative deal was the result of in-person peace talks Russian and Ukrainian officials held in Istanbul at the end of March. Virtual talks resumed after the meeting in Istanbul, but the two sides ultimately failed to reach a deal.
Report: Russia, Ukraine Tentatively Agreed on Peace Deal in April - News From Antiwar.com


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Read some actual history, you ignorant prick. The Cossack Hetmanate. If you want to know what borders 'Ukraine' had in 1654.


Why do you want more of your fellow Ukrainian citizens killed?  Are you a psychopath or a Nazi?

This should help you get informed….
_
". . .*Gorbachev only accepted German reunification—over which the Soviet Union had a legal right to veto under treaty—because he received assurances that NATO would not expand after he withdrew his forces from Eastern Europe from James Baker, President George H.W. Bush, West German foreign minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, the CIA Director Robert Gates, French President Francois Mitterrand, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, British foreign minister Douglas Hurd, British Prime Minister John Major, and NATO secretary-general Manfred Woerner*.

Indeed, as late as March 1991, the British were reassuring Gorbachev that they could not foresee circumstances under which NATO might expand into Eastern and Central Europe. As former British Ambassador to the Soviet Union recounted in March 5, 1991, Rodric Braithwaite, both British foreign minister Douglas Hurd and British Prime Minister John Major told the Soviet that NATO would not expand eastwards.

“I believe that your thoughts about the role of NATO in the current situation are the result of misunderstanding,” Major had told Gorbachev. We are not talking about strengthening of NATO. We are talking about the coordination of efforts that is already happening in Europe between NATO and the West European Union, which, as it is envisioned, would allow all members of the European Community to contribute to enhance [our] security.”
Newly Declassified Documents: Gorbachev Told NATO Wouldn't Move Past East German Border_


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Read some actual history, you ignorant prick. The Cossack Hetmanate. If you want to know what borders 'Ukraine' had in 1654.


Here’s more for you.  Now stop pushing Nazi propaganda. 

US, UK, France Promised USSR Not to Expand NATO East of Germany, Newly Discovered Document Proves​SPOTLIGHT, 28 Feb 2022 

*Ben Norton | Multipolarista – TRANSCEND Media Service*



> _Notes from a 1991 meeting prove that the US, UK, France, and Germany assured the Soviet Union that NATO would not expand east. It’s part of a growing body of evidence that the West broke its promise to Russia._


US, UK, France Promised USSR Not to Expand NATO East of Germany, Newly Discovered Document Proves


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Why do you want more of your fellow Ukrainian citizens killed?  Are you a psychopath or a Nazi?
> 
> This should help you get informed….
> 
> _". . .*Gorbachev only accepted German reunification—over which the Soviet Union had a legal right to veto under treaty—because he received assurances that NATO would not expand after he withdrew his forces from Eastern Europe from James Baker, President George H.W. Bush, West German foreign minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, the CIA Director Robert Gates, French President Francois Mitterrand, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, British foreign minister Douglas Hurd, British Prime Minister John Major, and NATO secretary-general Manfred Woerner*.
> 
> Indeed, as late as March 1991, the British were reassuring Gorbachev that they could not foresee circumstances under which NATO might expand into Eastern and Central Europe. As former British Ambassador to the Soviet Union recounted in March 5, 1991, Rodric Braithwaite, both British foreign minister Douglas Hurd and British Prime Minister John Major told the Soviet that NATO would not expand eastwards.
> 
> “I believe that your thoughts about the role of NATO in the current situation are the result of misunderstanding,” Major had told Gorbachev. We are not talking about strengthening of NATO. We are talking about the coordination of efforts that is already happening in Europe between NATO and the West European Union, which, as it is envisioned, would allow all members of the European Community to contribute to enhance [our] security.”
> Newly Declassified Documents: Gorbachev Told NATO Wouldn't Move Past East German Border_


I don't. And I already told you my views about the way I would stop this war. Should I repeat them?


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> I don't. And I already told you my views about the way I would stop this war. Should I repeat them?


Stop changing the subject. You ignorantly have stated multiple times the promises made not to expand NATO mean nothing.

Here is a great post for you to digest, my dear Nazi.  

Stop with the Nazi propaganda  

Post in thread 'Best part of the Ukrainian Invasion...'


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Here’s more for you.  Now stop pushing Nazi propaganda.
> 
> US, UK, France Promised USSR Not to Expand NATO East of Germany, Newly Discovered Document Proves​SPOTLIGHT, 28 Feb 2022
> 
> *Ben Norton | Multipolarista – TRANSCEND Media Service*
> 
> 
> US, UK, France Promised USSR Not to Expand NATO East of Germany, Newly Discovered Document Proves


I repeat it once more. These were promises between a number of politicians, the promises didn't have a legal basis.

International law doesn't know such a legal term as 'promises'. If there hadn't been a binding treaty, then the question is closed.

These promises lost their meaning the moment the last politician who had made them lost his power.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Stop changing the subject. You ignorantly have stated multiple times the promises made not to expand NATO mean nothing.
> 
> Here is a great post for you to digest, my dear Nazi.
> 
> Stop with the Nazi propaganda
> 
> Post in thread 'Best part of the Ukrainian Invasion...'


Nazi propaganda exists only in your insecure mind.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Nazi propaganda exists only in your insecure mind.


Again off topic…Nazi!

You like to call others Russian spies and trolls for merely opposing this stupid war, but can’t take it when you’re labeled.


Pussy!


----------



## AntonToo

ESay said:


> I don't. And I already told you my views about the way I would stop this war. Should I repeat them?


You can repeat it 10 times and he will come back to square one again and again. Can't fix stupid.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Again off topic…Nazi!
> 
> You like to call others Russian spies and trolls for merely opposing this stupid war, but can’t take it when you’re labeled.
> 
> 
> Pussy!


Nah, you can call me whatever you want. Who cares? It doesn't change the fact that you are absolutely ignorant about the land you are trying to post and just follow the narrative Russian propaganda is feeding you.

I don't remember calling you Russian spy or troll. Because I don't think it is true. Useful idiot, far more close.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> You can repeat it 10 times and he will come back to square one again and again. Can't fix stupid.


Unfortunately Uke, you never learn. You merely regurgitate western propaganda and continue to support a proxy war that’s killing lots of your fellow Ukes.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *toomuchtime*
> If you actually had any interest in this topic, you would ask yourself why all these states were so eager to join NATO. If you did you would find out it was because of Russia's long history of treachery and aggression against its neighbors. Instead of whining that no one trusts him, Putin should be apologizing for not being trustworthy.



Stop for a moment and think about the insanity that underpins your argument, toomuchtime.

You're trying to justify the military encirclement of Russia based on Russia's behavior in the 19th, 20th century.

In other words you're punishing the country for something it hasn't done yet!!

"*Russia has a history of imperialism regarding its neighbors so let's surround the country with a military alliance.*"

Convicting an individual, a citizen or a nation for something it hasn't done yet is not only insane, it's cruel as well. 

No judicial system in the world accept punishing anyone on the grounds that someday in the future they might commit a crime.

But here you are telling us Russia should be surrounded by a military alliance because there is a chance that in the future Russia will abuse her neighbors (not only you, by the way... The ukrainian Esay is always repeating this fallacy as well).

The same line of "reasoning" could be used against America as well. Latin American and Caribbean countries could try and justify a military alliance with China based on the Monroe Doctrine, based on 200 years of american interventionism in the region that included the overt theft of more than half of Mexico's territory.

But submitting 21th century America to a military encirclement based on the actions committed by the country 100, 200 years ago is absurd. China would sound just like a bully trying to come up with a pathetic excuse to justify his aggression, to justify the act of militarily surrounding its economic rival.

Exactly what you are doing here.


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> That wasn't his point. His point was that it is supposedly hypocritical for Americans to look down on Russian invasion, while supporting our own. My point is of course that he himself looks like a hypocrite for not simply condemning Russian invasion and instead blaming us for it.
> 
> Aside from that, I don't know where you get your info but VERY few Ukranians want to live under Putin and Zelensky has an overwhelming support of Ukranians in their fight against Russian invasion. Ukranians used to have mixed feelings about Russia and the extent of co-operation between their countries, all that is GONE, replaced mostly by outright hate to strong disaproval.
> 
> It is *absolutely* our bussiness to promote international order and open, democratic governing to ensure long term stability and growth. Isolationism does not work, as history has proven time and time again and it especially does not work in the context of modern global economic and social integration. The only serious question is how agressive we are in pursuing those interests.


I recent poll in Ukraine showed that roughly half of Ukrainians want to rejoin Russia because their current government is so corrupt that it is hurting average citizens.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Nah, you can call me whatever you want. Who cares? It doesn't change the fact that you are absolutely ignorant about the land you are trying to post and just follow the narrative Russian propaganda is feeding you.
> 
> I don't remember calling you Russian spy or troll. Because I don't think it is true. Useful idiot, far more close.


What Russia thinks of US sanctions….


----------



## ESay

José said:


> But here you are telling us Russia should be surrounded by a military alliance because there is a chance that in the future Russia will abuse her neighbors (not only you, by the way... The ukrainian Esay is always repeating this fallacy as well)


Have any of American presidents ever said that falling of the Monroe doctrine was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of some century, or that the Americans and Mexicans are the same people, or that Mexico is a 'created' state?

Or compared themselves with say Hernan Cortes?


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> What Russia thinks of US sanctions….


Yeah, cool video. China dragging Russia by a rope over the ground. Perfect explanation of future China-Russia relations.


----------



## gipper

José said:


> Stop for a moment and think about the insanity that underpins your argument, toomuchtime.
> 
> You're trying to justify the military encirclement of Russia based on Russia's behavior in the 19th, 20th century.
> 
> In other words you're punishing the country for something it hasn't done yet!!
> 
> "*Russia has a history of imperialism regarding its neighbors so let's surround the country with a military alliance.*"
> 
> Convicting an individual, a citizen or a nation for something it hasn't done yet is not only insane, it's cruel as well.
> 
> No judicial system in the world accept punishing anyone on the grounds that someday in the future they might commit a crime.
> 
> But here you are telling us Russia should be surrounded by a military alliance because there is a chance that in the future Russia will abuse her neighbors (not only you, by the way... The ukrainian Esay is always repeating this fallacy as well).
> 
> The same line of "reasoning" could be used against America as well. Latin American and Caribbean countries could try and justify a military alliance with China based on the Monroe Doctrine, based on 200 years of american interventionism in the region that included the overt theft of more than half of Mexico's territory.
> 
> But submitting 21th century America to a military encirclement based on the actions committed by the country 100, 200 years ago is absurd. China would sound just like a bully trying to come up with a pathetic excuse to justify his aggression, to justify the act of militarily surrounding its economic rival.
> 
> Exactly what you are doing here.


Excellent post. I’m afraid the warmongers will never understand it.

The hypocrisy of some is so obvious and enormous, yet they can’t see it in themselves.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Yeah, cool video. China dragging Russia by a rope over the ground. Perfect explanation of future China-Russia relations.


Haha…you missed the point being made, which is a common occurrence for you. 

NAZI!


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Have any of American presidents ever said that falling of the Monroe doctrine was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of some century, or that the Americans and Mexicans are the same people, or that Mexico is a 'created' state?
> 
> Or compared themselves with say Hernan Cortes?


What?  Once again you post stupidity. Do you know what a straw man argument is?  You are a master at it, but it’s so transparent and dumb. 

NAZI!


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Haha…you missed the point being made, which is a common occurrence for you.
> 
> NAZI!


You are just too slow to understand irony.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> What?  Once again you post stupidity. Do you know what a straw man argument is?  You are a master at it, but it’s so transparent and dumb.
> 
> NAZI!


Okay, my other argument is that Ukraine is a sovereign nation that has a right to defend itself. Deal with that, Yuri.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Okay, my other argument is that Ukraine is a sovereign nation that has a right to defend itself. Deal with that, Yuri.


No. Your argument is illogical. You blame Russia entirely and ignorantly refuse to see the big picture. There are many others who hold blame for this entirely unnecessary war. A war you wish to continue, causing more death and destruction.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> No. Your argument is illogical. You blame Russia entirely and ignorantly refuse to see the big picture. There are many others who hold blame for this entirely unnecessary war. A war you wish to continue, causing more death and destruction.


 Yeah, I know. MIT and banksters who steer troubles around the globe and finance wars and revolutions.


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> Read some actual history, you ignorant prick. The Cossack Hetmanate. If you want to know what borders 'Ukraine' had in 1654.


Are Cossacks Russian or Ukrainian, Clown?


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> The US had an opinion on which politician would be best for Ukraine to maintain its independence from Russia and discussed its opinions with Ukrainian politicians. That was the extent of US "meddling".


If Russians expressed a similar opinion regarding which Mexican president would best maintain Mexico's independence from the US and supported a violent coup that drove that duly elected president from power, would that qualify as "meddling"?


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Yanukovych was removed from office by an overwhelming vote in the Ukrainian parliament on the grounds he was unable to perform his duties. The demonstrations against Yanukovych were huge but not violent until he ordered the police to fire into the crowds


The vote to remove Yanukovych came after a violent mob forced him to flee; thereby, making it impossible for his to perform his duties. The mob was hijacked by right-wing, neo-Nazis who killed police officers in pursuit of their fascist movement.

What percentage of all Ukrainians supported your allegedly "huge" demonstrations against Yanukovych; was it more or less than those who opposed accepting IMF conditionalities attached to loans whose repayment would require abolishing gas subsidies? How many Ukrainians supported Maidan protesters who started shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street?


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> I get it.  You don't like the US and you enjoy watching Russians kill Ukrainians.


I don't like watching US elites fight for regime change in Moscow to the last drop of Ukrainian blood. Since you seem to believe the US is one of the "good guys", why don't you answer the question how many innocent human beings has the US murdered, maimed, and displaced on the opposite side of the planet since 1945?


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> If he said it, it was a very foolish thing to say.  At this point no one in his right mind would trust Putin to abide by any agreement so there can be no deal and there will be no territorial concessions.  This war can only end when Russia's battlefield losses become unsustainable and the Russian economy is so damaged that it cannot sustain any war.


He said it, and it's true.
Ukraine has the same chance of winning against Russia as Mexico has of winning against the US.
Ukrainians are dying by the thousands to bring regime change to Moscow.

Ukrainian casualties: Kyiv losing up to 200 troops a day - Zelensky aide

*"A senior Ukrainian presidential aide has told the BBC that between 100 and 200 Ukrainian troops are being killed on the front line every day.*

"Mykhaylo Podolyak said Ukraine needed hundreds of Western artillery systems to level the playing field with Russia in the eastern Donbas region.

"He also said Kyiv is not ready to resume peace talks with Moscow.

"Ukrainian troops are under relentless bombardment as Russian forces attempt to take control of the whole of Donbas.

"'The Russian forces have thrown pretty much everything non-nuclear at the front and that includes heavy artillery, multiple rocket launch systems and aviation,' Mr Podolyak said.

"He repeated Ukraine's appeal for more weapons from the West, saying that the 'complete lack of parity' between the Russian and Ukrainian armies was the reason for Ukraine's heavy casualty rate."


----------



## alexa

ESay said:


> *I repeat it once more. These were promises between a number of politicians, the promises didn't have a legal basis.*
> 
> International law doesn't know such a legal term as 'promises'. If there hadn't been a binding treaty, then the question is closed.
> 
> These promises lost their meaning the moment the last politician who had made them lost his power.


That is true but those who promise in supposed friendship and then go back on their word are people who it is wise not to trust.


----------



## alexa

ESay said:


> Have any of American presidents ever said that falling of the Monroe doctrine was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of some century, or that the Americans and Mexicans are the same people, or that Mexico is a 'created' state?
> 
> Or compared themselves with say Hernan Cortes?


Russia obviously has a long link with Ukraine and there are many Russian speakers in Ukraine. How long does Poland have?  Is their another substantial ethnic group in Ukraine?


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> That is true but those who promise in supposed friendship and then go back on their word are people who it is wise not to trust.


He’s a Ukrainian so his reasoning must always support Ukraine and oppose Russia. So, he has stupidly stated promises made by prior presidents and bureaucrats can be ignored by current and future presidents. He fails to see how this would effect foreign relations, as all nations conclude promises made by any potus are worthless.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Yeah, I know. MIT and banksters who steer troubles around the globe and finance wars and revolutions.






Now why didn’t peace happen?  Any ideas?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> You can repeat it 10 times and he will come back to square one again and again. Can't fix stupid.


NAZI!


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> NAZI!


Yep, he can't help himself from making my case for me.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


>


Azov batalion is part of Ukraine's Armed Forces. Before the war it was about ~1000 regional force with about 20% of self-identifiing as neo-Nazis, but after the war many joined to fight invaders. There is nothing in the article actually showing any of those guys being actual Nazis.

Useful idiots like you read Russians shills call someone a Nazi and you just nod along like the thoughtless dupe that you are.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Azov batalion is part of Ukraine's Armed Forces. Before the war it was about ~1000 regional force with about 20% of self-identifiing as neo-Nazis, but after the war many joined to fight invaders. There is nothing in the article actually showing any of those guys being actual Nazis.
> 
> Useful idiots like you read Russians shills call someone a Nazi and you just nod along like the thoughtless dupe that you are.


The Azoz went awol. Fucking cowards.

Now their enjoying life at Disney World. Surrounded by adoring dupes like you.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> The Azoz went awol. Fucking cowards.
> 
> Now their enjoying life at Disney World. Surrounded by adoring dupes like you.



That right, you have no evidence any of these guys are Nazis so you deflect to some silly bullshit.

....you actually think that because a couple of wounded in action soldiers visited Disney World then therefore Azov batalion is not fighting in Ukraine? Really moron?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> View attachment 690413
> 
> Now why didn’t peace happen?  Any ideas?


Umm yea, Ukraine refused to hand over 20% of it's land to Russia while it belives it can take it back millitarily.

They may have accepted a trade for Crimea, but Russia taking D/L is a non starter.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Umm yea, Ukraine refused to hand over 20% of it's land to Russia while it belives it can take it back millitarily.
> 
> They may have accepted a trade for Crimea, but Russia taking D/L is a non starter.


You sure love them Nazis!


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You sure love them Nazis!


Yep, thats all Russian poodles like you know.

Russians launching bloody invasions and annexing other countries? Cool, not-Nazis.
Ukranians defending their land? Nazis!!!

Does it hurt to be so fucking stupid? It must.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> Are Cossacks Russian or Ukrainian, Clown?


Do you know the difference between the two, bonehead?


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> If Russians expressed a similar opinion regarding which Mexican president would best maintain Mexico's independence from the US and supported a violent coup that drove that duly elected president from power, would that qualify as "meddling"?


Of course there was no coup.  Yanukovych was voted out of office by an overwhelming majority of the parliament and new elections were held.  In the face of overwhelming popular and parliamentary opposition, Yanukovych attempted to hand the Ukrainian government over to Putin, probably on Putin's orders, and when that failed Putin promptly invaded attempting to take by force what he had been unable to swindle Ukraine.  

Presenting these bizarre hypotheticals about the US does nothing to justify Russia's illegal and inhumane actions; it just demonstrates that you find it impossible to defend Russia's heinous crimes which you support.


----------



## ESay

alexa said:


> That is true but those who promise in supposed friendship and then go back on their word are people who it is wise not to trust.


Yes, it is better not to trust politicians. Nothing new, really. While concentrating on NATO expansion, you can't ignore the fact that it is former Warsaw Pact members wanted to join the block to have security guarantees from the West. Eastern Europe is not the place where Russia is trusted too much.

If not NATO, some other military block would have been set up there.


----------



## ESay

alexa said:


> Russia obviously has a long link with Ukraine and there are many Russian speakers in Ukraine. How long does Poland have?  Is their another substantial ethnic group in Ukraine?


The number of Poles in Ukraine is quite small, as far as I know. Some parts of Ukraine belonged to Poland over some periods in history.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> View attachment 690413
> 
> Now why didn’t peace happen?  Any ideas?


Maybe because that is a worthless piece of paper and the Russians never suggested anything similar to that?


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> The vote to remove Yanukovych came after a violent mob forced him to flee; thereby, making it impossible for his to perform his duties. The mob was hijacked by right-wing, neo-Nazis who killed police officers in pursuit of their fascist movement.
> 
> What percentage of all Ukrainians supported your allegedly "huge" demonstrations against Yanukovych; was it more or less than those who opposed accepting IMF conditionalities attached to loans whose repayment would require abolishing gas subsidies? How many Ukrainians supported Maidan protesters who started shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street?


Bullshit, his job was hijacked by Putin who ordered him to reject the free trade agreement with the EU, which would have brought considerable economic benefits to Ukraine, and to embrace Russia's European Economic Union, which would have brought no benefits to Ukraine.  
Yanukovych was Putin's man in Kyiv and once he failed to deliver Ukraine to Putin peacefully, he called on Putin to invade Ukraine.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> I don't like watching US elites fight for regime change in Moscow to the last drop of Ukrainian blood. Since you seem to believe the US is one of the "good guys", why don't you answer the question how many innocent human beings has the US murdered, maimed, and displaced on the opposite side of the planet since 1945?


Again, with these bizarre rants against the US you demonstrate that you find it impossible to defend Russia's heinous crimes but support them anyway.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> He said it, and it's true.
> Ukraine has the same chance of winning against Russia as Mexico has of winning against the US.
> Ukrainians are dying by the thousands to bring regime change to Moscow.
> 
> Ukrainian casualties: Kyiv losing up to 200 troops a day - Zelensky aide
> 
> *"A senior Ukrainian presidential aide has told the BBC that between 100 and 200 Ukrainian troops are being killed on the front line every day.*
> 
> "Mykhaylo Podolyak said Ukraine needed hundreds of Western artillery systems to level the playing field with Russia in the eastern Donbas region.
> 
> "He also said Kyiv is not ready to resume peace talks with Moscow.
> 
> "Ukrainian troops are under relentless bombardment as Russian forces attempt to take control of the whole of Donbas.
> 
> "'The Russian forces have thrown pretty much everything non-nuclear at the front and that includes heavy artillery, multiple rocket launch systems and aviation,' Mr Podolyak said.
> 
> "He repeated Ukraine's appeal for more weapons from the West, saying that the 'complete lack of parity' between the Russian and Ukrainian armies was the reason for Ukraine's heavy casualty rate."


There is no rational scenario in which Russia wins, or even survives, this war unless the western allies surrender to Putin this winter.  There is no way the grossly incompetent Russian military can prevail on the battlefield unless it uses its nukes to kill then of millions of Ukrainians and even then it will not survive the never ending sanctions.


----------



## toomuchtime_

alexa said:


> That is true but those who promise in supposed friendship and then go back on their word are people who it is wise not to trust.


No one went back on his word.  Gorbachev understood that short of a formal treaty no US president can dictate what the next president may do, and as for NATO, its founding charter states that any European nation may join NATO, and it would have had to be amended if any such promise had been made. That's why there were never any negotiations about former Warsaw Pact nations joining NATO.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, thats all Russian poodles like you know.
> 
> Russians launching bloody invasions and annexing other countries? Cool, not-Nazis.
> Ukranians defending their land? Nazis!!!
> 
> Does it hurt to be so fucking stupid? It must.


Yet you think what the USG has done these past few decades is warranted. 

CRAZY!

NAZI!!!


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Yet you think what the USG has done these past few decades is warranted.
> 
> CRAZY!
> 
> NAZI!!!


In other words you   find Russia's actions indefensible at the same time you support them and so you are trying to change the subject to vague allusions about what the US may have done.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> You just pay no attention at all to the meaning of the words you use. There is no meaning to "de facto NATO member". F







When a country receives NATO arms and training and is regularly mentioned for NATO membership that country becomes a de facto NATO member.

Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> For you, any excuse to kill Ukrainians is a good excuse. Ukraine applied for NATO membership back in 2008 after Putin invaded Georgia but France and Germany have been steadfast in refusing to even consider it because, they said, it might hurt Putin's feelings


France and Germany opposed that insanity because they don't have the Atlantic Ocean between Moscow and their capital cities. The US has been provoking Russia since the fall of the USSR. For the first twenty years the Russians could do little but complain verbally. That ended last February. They are now making it clear they will not tolerate a hostile foreign military alliance on their western border, and there is absolutely nothing US war-whores (like you) can do to change that reality.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Your argument that Russia has the right to invade Ukraine and kill thousands of Ukrainian people because it doesn't like the way Ukraine handles its internal affairs explains why no one in his right mind would sign any agreement with Russia.


Russia has the same right to defend its borders as the US has to employ the Monroe Doctrine.




Has the U.S. begun a new Monroe Doctrine in the Middle East?


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> When a country receives NATO arms and training and is regularly mentioned for NATO membership that country becomes a de facto NATO member.
> 
> Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership


There are no facts to support your ridiculous claim  that Ukraine was in any way part of NATO.  The only mention of Ukraine joining NATO was the fact it would not be allowed to join.  NATO never sent any weapons to Ukraine, but some NATO member states did.  At first the weapons that were sent were left over Soviet weapons and when these ran out weapons that met NATO standards were sent because those were the only weapons these states had.

Russia's pledge to never violate Ukraine's borders was not abrogated by the fake that Ukraine received military aid from some NATO members; all Russian treaties, agreements, understandings and pledges were trashed the moment Putin came to power and that is why there can be no new agreements with Russia while he remains in power.


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> There wasn't any agreement that prohibited Ukraine joining NATO, you idiot.


*Which agreement are you referring to, MAGA?*

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia

"The memoranda, signed in Patria Hall at the Budapest Convention Center with US Ambassador Donald M. Blinken amongst others in attendance,[2] prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the* United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine*, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, 'except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.'"

*When the US supported a violent coup against a duly elected Ukrainian president in 2014, it violated the terms of this agreement.*


----------



## AntonToo

toomuchtime_ said:


> In other words you   find Russia's actions indefensible at the same time you support them and so you are trying to change the subject to vague allusions about what the US may have done.



It's all this Russian poodle has. 

Everyone is a Nazi...except the fascists invading Ukraine.

He claims to be an American and as much as I want to give people the benefit of the doubt, there is just no way for me to believe that.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Russia has the same right to defend its borders as the US has to employ the Monroe Doctrine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has the U.S. begun a new Monroe Doctrine in the Middle East?



Russian border is in the middle of Ukraine? 

Since when?


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.


When's the last time you watched Russian TV?
If you believe the western media isn't lying to the same extent as the Russians, you're as ignorant as Trump.

Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> When's the last time you watched Russian TV?
> If you believe the western media isn't lying to the same extent as the Russians, you're as ignorant as Trump



I watched it on Tuesday. Literally most of what they say on their primetime political shows is laughable, transparent propaganda.

It's on the whole different level from American media. For starters, because there is NO ONE to check their bullshit.

Here in the states we have true political opposition and media viewpoint diversity to challenge reporting.

All that's left in Russia is Putin Vision, whatever small independent voices were remaining got squashed at the onset of the invasion.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.


When's the last time you watched Russian TV?
If you believe the western media isn't lying to the same extent as the Russians, you're as ignorant as Trump.



AntonToo said:


> Ukranians *choose *to defend their homeland and fight Russian invasion, *they begged EU/US for support and thank us for all we provide.*


*They are stealing the EU/US aid.
What would you expect from the second most corrupt state in Europe?*

Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone

"Last month, Ukraine’s parliamentarians voted to give themselves a 70% salary increase. 

"Filings indicate the raise was enabled and encouraged by the billions of dollars and euros of aid that have poured in from the US and Europe.

"'We, the Ukrainian soldiers, have nothing,' said Ivan. 'The things the soldiers have been given to use in the war came directly from volunteers. *The aid that goes to our government will never reach us.'*"


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> When's the last time you watched Russian TV?
> If you believe the western media isn't lying to the same extent as the Russians, you're as ignorant as Trump.
> 
> 
> *They are stealing the EU/US aid.
> What would you expect from the second most corrupt state in Europe?*
> 
> Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone
> 
> "Last month, Ukraine’s parliamentarians voted to give themselves a 70% salary increase.
> 
> "Filings indicate the raise was enabled and encouraged by the billions of dollars and euros of aid that have poured in from the US and Europe.
> 
> "'We, the Ukrainian soldiers, have nothing,' said Ivan. 'The things the soldiers have been given to use in the war came directly from volunteers. *The aid that goes to our government will never reach us.'*"



Horseshit, American weapons used everyday.

Parliamentarian salaries are a drop in the bucket. If you knew anything at all you'd know that.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Ukrainians choose for themselves.


After the US/NATO puppets provoked  Russian military actions, Ukrainians chose to fight against the invaders. Since the US supported the illegal coup in 2014 that brought those puppets to power, the US is responsible for starting another civil war thousands of miles from DC. Who gets rich(er) from that?


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Here is a crazy idea - If Russia's leadership doesn't want their regime threatened they should abstain from conducting bloody, economically disasterous invasions and work to make their people's lives better instead of ruining them.







It's
Not
Russia.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> In other words you   find Russia's actions indefensible at the same time you support them and so you are trying to change the subject to vague allusions about what the US may have done.


No. Those are your words and they’re wrong.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> It's
> Not
> Russia.



Do you fools have anything beside deflection and false equivalences?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> No. Those are your words and they’re wrong.


So go ahead poodle, tell us what you think about Russian bloody invasion. Seems all you've got is shitting on America as a response to Russian atrocities in Ukraine.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> *Which agreement are you referring to, MAGA?*
> 
> Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia
> 
> "The memoranda, signed in Patria Hall at the Budapest Convention Center with US Ambassador Donald M. Blinken amongst others in attendance,[2] prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the* United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine*, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, 'except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.'"
> 
> *When the US supported a violent coup against a duly elected Ukrainian president in 2014, it violated the terms of this agreement.*


Again you acknowledge that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is indefensible by making false accusation against the US.  There was no military or economic coercion exercised by the US against Ukraine.  

This memorandum was signed in 1994 when Russia was trying to join the civilized world, but all that changed once Putin came to power and now no treaties, agreements, understandings or pledges made by Russia are respected by the Russian government, and that's why there can't be any agreement with Russia to end the war while Putin remains in power.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Russia has the same right to defend its borders as the US has to employ the Monroe Doctrine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has the U.S. begun a new Monroe Doctrine in the Middle East?


If you had a functioning brain, you would realize Russia's borders were never threatened, only Russia's imperialist ambitions were threatened by NATO.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> France and Germany opposed that insanity because they don't have the Atlantic Ocean between Moscow and their capital cities. The US has been provoking Russia since the fall of the USSR. For the first twenty years the Russians could do little but complain verbally. That ended last February. They are now making it clear they will not tolerate a hostile foreign military alliance on their western border, and there is absolutely nothing US war-whores (like you) can do to change that reality.


If France and Germany had allowed Ukraine to join NATO, Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine, but their attempts to appease Putin and secure cheap energy from Russia emboldened Putin to attempt to take over Ukraine.  

Russia violates its own agreements to start a war and to your sick twisted mind anyone who opposes it is a war whore.  Could you possibly be more ridiculous!


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> No. Those are your words and they’re wrong.


No, they are quite accurate.  You have two ways of trying to defend Russia's invasion of Ukraine, by telling lies about the Ukrainians and by telling lies about the US or NATO.  That pretty much covers all of your posts.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> No, they are quite accurate.  You have two ways of trying to defend Russia's invasion of Ukraine, by telling lies about the Ukrainians and by telling lies about the US or NATO.  That pretty much covers all of your posts.


Only the facts my son. You spout the establishment’s war lies that you know is propaganda.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Only the facts my son.



Fact: Russia invaded Ukraine and is annexing their land.

You can't admit that fact, can you poodle?


----------



## Orangecat

Dragonlady said:


> Your very possible solution is NEVER going to happen.  The Ukrainian people will NEVER submit at this point.


CanadaKaren has spoken. Time for Putin to surrender. Lulz.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> *Which agreement are you referring to, MAGA?*
> 
> Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia
> 
> "The memoranda, signed in Patria Hall at the Budapest Convention Center with US Ambassador Donald M. Blinken amongst others in attendance,[2] prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the* United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine*, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, 'except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.'"
> 
> *When the US supported a violent coup against a duly elected Ukrainian president in 2014, it violated the terms of this agreement.*


Budapest Memorandum had nothing to do with Ukraine joining NATO, you brainless idiot.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Fact: Russia invaded Ukraine and is annexing their land.
> 
> You can't admit that fact, can you poodle?


I do admit that pin dick. 

Now if the USG hadn’t committed a coup there and refused to provide billions in weapons promoting a proxy war that is killing lots of Ukrainians, there would be no war.


----------



## alexa

toomuchtime_ said:


> No one went back on his word.  Gorbachev understood that short of a formal treaty no US president can dictate what the next president may do, and as for NATO, its founding charter states that any European nation may join NATO, and it would have had to be amended if any such promise had been made. That's why there were never any negotiations about former Warsaw Pact nations joining NATO.


Gorbachev was quite clear that he thought this was an agreement.  I see you are not someone to do business with.


----------



## alexa

ESay said:


> Yes, it is better not to trust politicians. Nothing new, really. While concentrating on NATO expansion, you can't ignore the fact that it is former Warsaw Pact members wanted to join the block to have security guarantees from the West. Eastern Europe is not the place where Russia is trusted too much.
> 
> If not NATO, some other military block would have been set up there.


Frankly it is clear that Europe is now being used by them and by Europe haters who want to see it harmed while Ukraine officials enjoy the merry life leaving their people to be destroyed.  Yes, damned right there.  Do not trust politicians or their opinion makers.


----------



## alexa

toomuchtime_ said:


> If you had a functioning brain, you would realize Russia's borders were never threatened, only Russia's imperialist ambitions were threatened by NATO.


Nonetheless apparently the entire top military intelligence in Russia believed this and this was well known to the US. If you do not want wars with people you make sure you are able to convince the other country that this is not the intent. - what the initial agreement was about.  However if your intent is to do harm to a country then it is to your advantage that they believe, rightly or wrongly that you are a strong danger to them.  You can use that to manipulate them to for instance start a little war which you can bring the full wrath of your arms against them, blaming them.  You can also use it if you want to destroy a continent which used to be your allies.  Punishing them for being prepared to deal with your enemy.


----------



## Ringo

The result of the Ukrainian strikes on Donetsk
"As of 23:30, the total number of civilian casualties from the attacks of the ukro nazies for september 2, 2022 is 21 people, including 1 child," the DPR representative office in the JCCC said.
 It is specified that six civilians, including a 14-year-old boy, were killed, and another 15 were injured. The life of a woman born in 1946 and a man with unidentified personal data was cut short in the Voroshilovsky district of Donetsk, a teenage boy in Kalininsky. 
Brave ukrainian knights were beaten at Kherson and are taking revenge on women and children. Nothing changes with nazi filth..


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> Budapest Memorandum had nothing to do with Ukraine joining NATO, you brainless idiot.


It had everything to do with Ukrainian security guarantees, MAGA-Bitch.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Do you fools have anything beside deflection and false equivalences?


Facts are stubborn things…particularly when your dumb!


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> If you had a functioning brain, you would realize Russia's borders were never threatened, only Russia's imperialist ambitions were threatened by NATO.


Haven’t I already schooled on this, my fool.

Talk to the Serbs and Libyans about your beloved defensive alliance. Lol.


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> I don't. And I already told you my views about the way I would stop this war. Should I repeat them?


*Start by telling us how you expect to "stop" this war by parroting US/NATO propaganda like claims of "Russian brutality"*

A Marine’s assessment of Russia’s Military “Operation” in Ukraine (a “profound appreciation of all three realms in which wars are waged”) | MR Online

"I’ve always been a little non-plussed with all the claims of Russian brutality — beyond the brutality of war itself — *when the trains are still running, the electrical power grid is still on, the Internet functions, and there’s potable water. *

"Very different from, say, Fallujah. 

"(Granted, the Russians want to integrate the Zaporizhzhia power plant into their own grid, but that’s consistent with their policy of making outcomes more stringent the longer the war goes on.)

*"Third, artillery really is 'the king of battles'[1]:"*


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> Yep, thats all Russian poodles like you know.
> 
> Russians launching bloody invasions and annexing other countries? Cool, not-Nazis.
> Ukranians defending their land? Nazis!!!
> 
> Does it hurt to be so fucking stupid? It must.


Ukraine was part of Russia for decades,  in a recent poll over half of Ukrainians wanted to rejoin Russia.  Ukraine is a very corrupt country that exploits its citizens,  but we all know the real reason why the US government is supporting Ukraine,  to keep the bribe money flowing to the following US power families:  Biden, Romney, Pelosi, Kerry.   They are sending billions of OUR tax money to Ukraine that will come back into those families bank accounts.   Bribery and treason are the watchwords of the dem/lib party.


----------



## Ringo

Americans are Criminally Insane
					

I have in the past been accused of being ‘anti-American’ and, while that was perhaps true, those sentiments were directed primarily to the US government and its agencies and not the people of the nation, on the grounds that, democracy notwithstanding, the people were not responsible for the...



					www.unz.com


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> It had everything to do with Ukrainian security guarantees, MAGA-Bitch.


So what? These guarantees still stand, despite your pretending to be otherwise. 

MAGA-bitch? What the heck? I think that a MAGA wouldn't allow me even on their doorstep.


----------



## toomuchtime_

alexa said:


> Gorbachev was quite clear that he thought this was an agreement.  I see you are not someone to do business with.


Obviously, there was no such agreement.  No US president can make a pledge that is binding on other US presidents, and NATO would have to have amended article 10 of its founding Charter if such a pledge was made.  You continue to portray the Russians as idiots who had no understanding of the world they were living in.


----------



## toomuchtime_

alexa said:


> Nonetheless apparently the entire top military intelligence in Russia believed this and this was well known to the US. If you do not want wars with people you make sure you are able to convince the other country that this is not the intent. - what the initial agreement was about.  However if your intent is to do harm to a country then it is to your advantage that they believe, rightly or wrongly that you are a strong danger to them.  You can use that to manipulate them to for instance start a little war which you can bring the full wrath of your arms against them, blaming them.  You can also use it if you want to destroy a continent which used to be your allies.  Punishing them for being prepared to deal with your enemy.


In other words, you have nothing but your fantasies to offer.  The invasion of Ukraine was imperialist aggression and Putin acknowledged in his Peter the Great speech.  Putin, and apparently you, hate NATO and the US not because they posed any threat to Russian security but because they blocked Russia's path to expanding the Russian empire westward.


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> So what? These guarantees still stand, despite your pretending to be otherwise.
> 
> MAGA-bitch? What the heck? I think that a MAGA wouldn't allow me even on their doorstep.


Those guarantees were void after the US supported an illegal coup in 2014.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> Those guarantees were void after the US supported an illegal coup in 2014.


Maybe in your imagination. These guarantees were given to Ukraine as a sovereign state. These guarantees still stands.


----------



## georgephillip

Redfish said:


> Ukraine was part of Russia for decades, in a recent poll over half of Ukrainians wanted to rejoin Russia. U


Do you have a link for those poll numbers?


----------



## georgephillip

Ringo said:


> Americans are Criminally Insane
> 
> 
> I have in the past been accused of being ‘anti-American’ and, while that was perhaps true, those sentiments were directed primarily to the US government and its agencies and not the people of the nation, on the grounds that, democracy notwithstanding, the people were not responsible for the...
> 
> 
> 
> www.unz.com


Your link:

"And, since the US government, military and CIA are almost 100% controlled by, and functioning as lieutenants and enforcers for, the *Khazarian Jewish mafia resident in the City of London*, my observations apply equally to both parties. Still, these are startling accusations, so let’s examine the substantiation. We can begin with:

*American Political & Military Leaders..."*

Seriously?


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> In other words, you have nothing but your fantasies to offer.  The invasion of Ukraine was imperialist aggression and Putin acknowledged in his Peter the Great speech.  Putin, and apparently you, hate NATO and the US not because they posed any threat to Russian security but because they blocked Russia's path to expanding the Russian empire westward.


Putin explained himself in 2007 at Munich when he criticized the US unipolar arrogance and its resulting human carnage in Iraq and Afghanistan:

2007 Munich speech of Vladimir Putin - Wikipedia

"Putin criticized what he called the United States' monopolistic dominance in global relations, and its '*almost uncontained hyper use of force in international relations'*. 

"The speech came to be known, especially in Russia,[_citation needed_] as the Munich speech..."

"Putin quoted a 1990 speech by Manfred Wörner to support his position that NATO promised not to expand into new countries in Eastern Europe:[5][6]



> "[Worner] said at the time that: *'the fact that we are ready not to place a NATO army outside of German territory gives the Soviet Union a firm security guarantee.' Where are these guarantees?"*


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Putin explained himself in 2007 at Munich when he criticized the US unipolar arrogance and its resulting human carnage in Iraq and Afghanistan:
> 
> 2007 Munich speech of Vladimir Putin - Wikipedia
> 
> "Putin criticized what he called the United States' monopolistic dominance in global relations, and its '*almost uncontained hyper use of force in international relations'*.
> 
> "The speech came to be known, especially in Russia,[_citation needed_] as the Munich speech..."
> 
> "Putin quoted a 1990 speech by Manfred Wörner to support his position that NATO promised not to expand into new countries in Eastern Europe:[5][6]


So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> So what? These guarantees still stand, despite your pretending to be otherwise.
> 
> MAGA-bitch? What the heck? I think that a MAGA wouldn't allow me even on their doorstep.


Truth for dummies…


*The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022*
 • 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
_*The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East,* followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.

*Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, *to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.

*Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.


Truth for dummies…


*The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022*
• 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
_*The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East,* followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.

*Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, *to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.

*Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Truth for dummies…
> 
> 
> *The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
> Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022*
> • 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
> _*The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East,* followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.
> 
> *Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, *to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.
> 
> *Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
> The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_


And yet again you find it impossible to justify Putin's insane invasion of Ukraine and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US may have done.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> And yet again you find it impossible to justify Putin's insane invasion of Ukraine and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US may have done.


It’s not insane. He’s protecting his nation. He warned the west for years. Don’t be stupid forever.

Was W and O insane when they attacked multiple nations thousands of miles from home? Not on our border as Putin has done. I know you’ll ignore this question.

Think better.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> It’s not insane. He’s protecting his nation. He warned the west for years. Don’t be stupid forever.
> 
> Was W and O insane when they attacked multiple nations thousands of miles from home? Not on our border as Putin has done. I know you’ll ignore this question.
> 
> Think better.


Putin is insane and you are insane for claiming Putin invaded Ukraine for any other reason than to indulge his fantasies about being Peter the Great and once again you try to change the subject to what you imagine the US may have done because it is impossible to justify the invasion of Ukraine.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Putin is insane and you are insane for claiming Putin invaded Ukraine for any other reason than to indulge his fantasies about being Peter the Great and once again you try to change the subject to what you imagine the US may have done because it is impossible to justify the invasion of Ukraine.


You’ve bought the establishment’s simple minded narrative, which is entirely propaganda to benefit the oligarchy. 

Maybe this will help…

_*The irony is that since 1980 the US has been in at least 15 overseas wars of choice (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Panama, Serbia, Syria, and Yemen just to name a few), while China has been in none, and Russia only in one (Syria) beyond the former Soviet Union. The US has military bases in 85 countries, China in 3, and Russia in 1 (Syria) beyond the former Soviet Union.*_


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You’ve bought the establishment’s simple minded narrative, which is entirely propaganda to benefit the oligarchy.
> 
> Maybe this will help…
> 
> _*The irony is that since 1980 the US has been in at least 15 overseas wars of choice (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Panama, Serbia, Syria, and Yemen just to name a few), while China has been in none, and Russia only in one (Syria) beyond the former Soviet Union. The US has military bases in 85 countries, China in 3, and Russia in 1 (Syria) beyond the former Soviet Union.*_


There you go again trying to change the subject because you find it impossible to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Truth for dummies…
> 
> 
> *The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
> Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022*
> • 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
> _*The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East,* followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.
> 
> *Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, *to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.
> 
> *Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
> The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_


1. There was no committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia. In the Bucharest summit in 2008, instead of giving the MAP to these countries, NATO issued a declaration that Ukraine and Georgia will be NATO members some time. Without commitments and terms.

2. Have you ever read the Minsk agreements, Yuri? Why no one of you idiots demanded to press Russia for their implementation?

3. Yes, NATO's main aim is to confront Russia. Ever was and will ever be. Otherwise, its existence is meaningless.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> There you go again trying to change the subject because you find it impossible to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine.


I already did. Can you read English?


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> 1. There was no committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia. In the Bucharest summit in 2008, instead of giving the MAP to these countries, NATO issued a declaration that Ukraine and Georgia will be NATO members some time. Without commitments and terms.
> 
> 2. Have you ever read the Minsk agreements, Yuri? Why no one of you idiots demanded to press Russia for their implementation?
> 
> 3. Yes, NATO's main aim is to confront Russia. Ever was and will ever be. Otherwise, its existence is meaningless.


NATO existed to confront the USSR. Guess what my little Uke friend, the USSR died a peaceful death long ago and so should  NATO. NATO is nothing more than an arms for dollars scheme, designed specifically to enrich a few war profiteers.


----------



## sparky

Flash said:


> However, NATO was created as a defensive alliance against the potential of further post WWII Soviet expansion.







~S~


----------



## Redfish

georgephillip said:


> Do you have a link for those poll numbers?


it was on CNN, look it up for yourself.   I am not here to be your teacher.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Fact: Russia invaded Ukraine and is annexing their land.
> 
> You can't admit that fact, can you poodle?


Hey Uke, we’re watching the United States try to start a war between China and Taiwan in real time and if it happens, dumb Americans and Ukes like you will easily be convinced that China is the aggressor and it was all totally unprovoked.

That's one of the jobs of our media, yet dummies buy it every time.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Hey Uke, we’re watching the United States try to start a war



Russia invaded Ukraine and is annexing their lands and think your deflection somehow justifies it?

You are so fucked in the head it's scary.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> NATO existed to confront the USSR. Guess what my little Uke friend, the USSR died a peaceful death long ago and so should  NATO. NATO is nothing more than an arms for dollars scheme, designed specifically to enrich a few war profiteers.



Yep, no matter how many times you completely destroy his bullshit arguments he comes right back here to parrot them over and over and over.

Not sure if he is just mentally deficient or getting paid to do this.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, no matter how many times you completely destroy his bullshit arguments he comes right back here to parrot them over and over and over.
> 
> Not sure if he is just mentally deficient or getting paid to do this.


I push peace. You push war. Now who’s more likely to be getting paid?


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> Do you know the difference between the two, bonehead?


Give me your version, MAGA.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Of course there was no coup. Yanukovych was voted out of office by an overwhelming majority of the parliament and new elections were held.


That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street. 

Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.

None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.

A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I push peace.



Wtf does downplaying and deflecting from bloody Russian invasion and take over of Ukranian land have to do with "pushing peace"?

If you were "pushing peace" you would be condemning these imperialist atrocities by Putin in the harshest of terms.

Take your "pushing peace" bullshit somewhere else. No one here is buying it.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street.
> 
> Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.
> 
> None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.
> 
> A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?


The statist loving warmonger knows nothing about this and doesn’t want to know.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street.
> 
> Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.
> 
> None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.
> 
> A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?



There is no evidence Ukranians would not rise up against Yankovych's gov without Americans. It's just a bs Russian talking point.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Wtf does downplaying and deflecting from bloody Russian invasion and take over of Ukranian land have to do with "pushing peace"?
> 
> If you were "pushing peace" you would be condemning these imperialist atrocities by Putin in the harshest of terms.
> 
> Take your "pushing peace" bullshit somewhere else. No one here is buying it.


Of course. You prove once again you know nothing of the history of Ukraine. You know Russia invaded. That’s it. 

See my post above.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Of course. You prove once again you know nothing of the history of Ukraine. You know Russia invaded. That’s it.
> 
> See my post above.



Yep, "peace pusher" blames Russia's bloody invasion and annexing lands on everyone but Russia

Kremlin bullshit pusher is what you actually are.


----------



## alexa

Redfish said:


> Ukraine was part of Russia for decades,  in a recent poll over half of Ukrainians wanted to rejoin Russia.


This is just nonsense and could not be further from the truth.









						What percentage of Ukrainians want to join Russia?
					

Answer (1 of 28): Most are undecided (Ukraine has been a bad place to live in, but there’s so much propaganda about Russia). Some are pro Russia, some are pro Western. Most just want a better life. Historically Ukrainians have been pro Russian (brotherly peoples and shared history) and the consta...




					www.quora.com


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, "peace pusher" blames Russia's bloody invasion and annexing lands on everyone but Russia
> 
> Kremlin bullshit pusher is what you actually are.


As I’ve said, Putin is an asshole and a dictator. However only a fool blames him entirely for this terrible easily avoided war. You are a fool.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street.
> 
> Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.
> 
> None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.
> 
> A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?


As always, you are full of shit.  Yanukovych tried to outlaw protests and when that failed he sent special police squads out to break up the protests by force.  The police killed 118 protesters and in the process 13 cops were killed.  It was only after that event that the protesters came armed.  The overwhelming majority of the public and the parliament favored signing the agreement with the EU and Yanukovych ignored them and tried to prevent the people from protesting.  

Why did he flee?  Because he called on Russia to invade Ukraine and restore him to power.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> As I’ve said, Putin is an asshole and a dictator. However only a fool blames him entirely for this terrible easily avoided war. You are a fool.


Only a fool would deny it.  As you say, Putin is a dictator so the decision to invade Ukraine was entirely his.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Only a fool would deny it.  As you say, Putin is a dictator so the decision to invade Ukraine was entirely his.


Doubt that.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> NATO existed to confront the USSR. Guess what my little Uke friend, the USSR died a peaceful death long ago and so should  NATO. NATO is nothing more than an arms for dollars scheme, designed specifically to enrich a few war profiteers.


NATO should exist as a guarantor of security in Europe. If we are talking about external threat, then in the 20th century it was the USSR, now it is Russia.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> Give me your version, MAGA.


No thanks. There is a good Russian saying: Duraka uchit' - tolko portit'. (Something like, educating of a fool only spoils him).


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> NATO should exist as a guarantor of security in Europe. If we are talking about external threat, then in the 20th century it was the USSR, now it is Russia.


A made up threat to enrich the war profiteers. Old tactic but it still works on the uninformed.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> As I’ve said, Putin is an asshole and a dictator. However only a fool blames him entirely for this terrible easily avoided war. You are a fool.



The only who could've easily avoided this war is the guy who ordered it - Putin. DUH


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Yanukovych attempted to hand the Ukrainian government over to Putin, probably on Putin's orders, and when that failed Putin promptly invaded attempting to take by force what he had been unable to swindle Ukraine.


Yanukovych refused an IMF "loan" that would have required his citizens to lose their gas subsidies thereby increasing costs to consumers beyond the ability to pay for many. 

The US government saw an opportunity to sell American LNG to its European puppets, cutting out traditional Russian gas supplies; how's that working out at the moment?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> The only who could've easily avoided this war is the guy who ordered it - Putin. DUH


Lol. I’ve already schooled you on this. Are you sure you don’t have dementia?

*The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022*
• 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
_*The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East,* followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.

*Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, *to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.

*Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol. I’ve already schooled you on this. Are you sure you don’t have dementia?
> 
> *The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
> Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022*
> • 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
> _*The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East,* followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.
> 
> *Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, *to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.
> 
> *Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
> The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_



Can't school with bullshit.

Starting the war was entirely Putin's descision and no one else, he is responsible for it.

If he wouldn't order it, then it wouldn't happen and Russia would have been way better off for it too. It is actually is that clear and simple.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Presenting these bizarre hypotheticals about the US does nothing to justify Russia's illegal and inhumane actions; it just demonstrates that you find it impossible to defend Russia's heinous crimes which you support.


There's nothing hypothetical about US meddling in the affairs of foreign states; anyone saying otherwise is lying or brain-dead.




 "(The) cover from *Time* magazine (7/15/96): a chipper Boris Yeltsin holding an American flag, and the line 'Yanks to the Rescue! The Secret Story of How American Advisers Helped Yeltsin Win.' 

"You can make '*one law for me, another for thee*' your credo, but you can’t be too surprised when others are unimpressed."

Hypocrisy of Russia-Did-It Stories Is Hard to Stomach - FAIR


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> There's nothing hypothetical about US meddling in the affairs of foreign states; anyone saying otherwise is lying or brain-dead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "(The) cover from *Time* magazine (7/15/96): a chipper Boris Yeltsin holding an American flag, and the line 'Yanks to the Rescue! The Secret Story of How American Advisers Helped Yeltsin Win.'
> 
> "You can make '*one law for me, another for thee*' your credo, but you can’t be too surprised when others are unimpressed."
> 
> Hypocrisy of Russia-Did-It Stories Is Hard to Stomach - FAIR



It's ok for Russia to invade other countries and take their land because US meddles.

Did I capture your elegant argument correctly?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Can't school with bullshit.
> 
> Starting the war was entirely Putin's descision and no one else, he is responsible for it.
> 
> If he wouldn't order it, then it wouldn't happen and Russia would have been way better off for it too. It is actually is that clear and simple.


I guess a simple minded person from Ukraine would think that.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> It's ok for Russia to invade other countries and take their land because US meddles.
> 
> Did I capture your elegant argument correctly?


Your argument is the US is perfectly right to invade nations thousands of miles from home, but Russia better not do the same to a nation on it’s border.

Plus the US has every right to provide massive amounts of military hardware to the invaded nation so that thousands will die in it’s proxy war, but war profiteers will get fabulously rich.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> Can't school with bullshit.
> 
> Starting the war was entirely Putin's descision and no one else, he is responsible for it.
> 
> If he wouldn't order it, then it wouldn't happen and Russia would have been way better off for it too. It is actually is that clear and simple.


Oh please do you really believe that people act for no reason.  A Good Democracy Now filling in some of the reasons we all find ourselves in the situation we are in now - and it is not because you are the 'good guys'though I accept that is what you have been conditioned to believe.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Your argument is the US is perfectly right to invade nations thousands of miles from home, but Russia better not do the same to a nation on it’s border.


No it isn't my argument. You are just making shit up.

You want to discuss specific wars US started, some of which I and many others opposed form day 1? Wars that Americans have come to understand were mistakes? Sure, go make a thread.* Nothing about that excuses Russian invasion* and annexation of Ukranian land that THIS thread is about. You are just too damn stupid to grasp that.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> Oh please do you really believe that people act for no reason.


No I don't belive that, I belive Putin is acting for REALLY BAD reasons.

If I was a Russian leader obsessed with becoming a historical figure like Peter the Great, then I too would jump at any excuse to grab some lands instead of prioritizing the welfare of my people.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> No I don't belive that, I belive Putin is acting for REALLY BAD reasons.


How about W and O?  Were they acting really bad?


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> it is not because you are the 'good guys'though I accept that is what you have been conditioned to believe.


Having being born and living in Russia it's not at all what I've "been conditioned to belive" it's what I've LEARNED about the abject failure that is Russia's corrupt governing and vastly superior governing structure in developed democracies, which of course inludes United States that I now call my home.

America is certainly not perfect and we make mistakes, but our relatively open and low corruption system allows for reflection and correction from the bottom up. It's what I'm proud to be part of.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> No I don't belive that, I belive Putin is acting for REALLY BAD reasons.
> 
> If I was a Russian leader obsessed with becoming a historical figure like Peter the Great, then I too would jump at any excuse to grab some lands instead of prioritizing the welfare of my people.


Well Peter the great is one thing but why not look at what caused his thoughts to develop in that way.  The Democracy Now interview gives an introduction to some of that and to Putin's original feelings.  Beginning point I think that no sooner had Russia and the US agreed that NATO would go no further, than the US was already making its plans to take over the previous Warsaw Pack countries and surround Russia with Nato and arguably with no country stronger than with Ukraine - the country in NATO in everything but name.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> How about W and O?  Were they acting really bad?


Start a separate thread and I'll tell you all about that. I'm not going to let you derail this one.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> Well Peter the great is one thing but why not look at what caused his thoughts to develop in that way.  The Democracy Now interview gives an introduction to some of that and to Putin's original feelings.  Beginning point I think that no sooner had Russia and the US agreed that NATO would go no further, than the US was already making its plans to take over the previous Warsaw Pack countries and surround Russia with Nato and arguably with no country stronger than with Ukraine - the country in NATO in everything but name.


NATO does not "take over" anything, they *ALLOW *membership to those countries that seek it. With agressive neighbors like Russia joining a defensive alliance is a no-braininer.

NATO has never threatened Russian borders AND NEVER WILL due to nuclear deterence arrangement. It's just an excuse and a bogeyman Putin uses to get his nationalists to support invading other countries.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> ciHaving being born and living in Russia it's not at all what I've "been conditioned to belive" it's what I've LEARNED about the abject failure that is Russia's corrupt governing


Are you Russian?  When were you living there?  Looks to me that either you were a lot more critical then or there was more criticism in the society which itself is a positive thing,




AntonToo said:


> and vastly superior governing structure in developed democracies, which of course inludes United States that I now call my home.


what do you mean by this? Even if this was true that would not mean that what you are saying Re Russia being to blame is true..  You need to look into the situation you are talking about.  From what you have said you appear to believe US Good Russia bad.  Who is the country who has been fighting war upon war upon war for these past 20 years?  The UK can usually be found in the background helping the US trying to get itself the feeling that it is still an imperialist power.


AntonToo said:


> America is certainly not perfect and we make mistakes, but our relatively open and low corruption system allows for reflection and correction from the bottom up. It's what I'm proud to be part of.


America does not reflect any more.  I do not know when it last did but it was a long time ago and at that time it was the power of America's people who had no problems in creating uproar when the US was found acting against democracy.  Those days are long gone.  Ended September 11th  2001


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Start a separate thread and I'll tell you all about that. I'm not going to let you derail this one.


Lol. I know your thinking. You’re fine with the US invading nations half way around the world, because that’s for American interests. Russia isn’t allowed to have interests. 

You don’t know this makes you a hypocrite.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> NATO does not "take over" anything, they *ALLOW *membership to those countries that seek it. With agressive neighbors like Russia joining a defensive alliance is a no-braininer.
> 
> NATO has never threatened Russian borders AND NEVER WILL due to nuclear deterence arrangement. It's just an excuse and a bogeyman Putin uses to get his nationalists to support invading other countries.


Pure dupe!


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> NATO does not "take over" anything, they *ALLOW *membership to those countries that seek it. With agressive neighbors like Russia joining a defensive alliance is a no-braininer.
> 
> NATO has never threatened Russian borders AND NEVER WILL due to nuclear deterence arrangement. It's just an excuse and a bogeyman Putin uses to get his nationalists to support invading other countries.


You can play games with yourself but not with me.  A promise is a promise.  The US reneged on theirs.  A country which is wanting to live on good terms with their neighbours does not do this.  I don't think you have given this any study apart from the general media. At the end of WW2 the US had over 50 Independently funded media.  This is considered very important for democracies.  Now it has 5 .


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> You can play games with yourself but not with me.  A promise is a promise.  The US reneged on theirs.  A country which is wanting to live on good terms with their neighbours does not do this.  I don't think you have given this any study apart from the general media. At the end of WW2 the US had over 50 Independently funded media.  This is considered very important for democracies.  Now it has 5 .


Exactly. All he knows is Russia bad, just as the establishment has instructed him to think.


----------



## toomuchtime_

alexa said:


> You can play games with yourself but not with me.  A promise is a promise.  The US reneged on theirs.  A country which is wanting to live on good terms with their neighbours does not do this.  I don't think you have given this any study apart from the general media. At the end of WW2 the US had over 50 Independently funded media.  This is considered very important for democracies.  Now it has 5 .


There is not a single word of truth in your post.  Obviously, no promise about NATO not allowing eastern European states to join NATO in the future was made or could have been made and the claim that the US has only five independent news organizations is bizarre.


----------



## alexa

toomuchtime_ said:


> There is not a single word of truth in your post.  Obviously, no promise about NATO not allowing eastern European states to join NATO in the future was made or could have been made and the claim that the US has only five independent news organizations is bizarre.


When you yourself choose to write the truth and learn how to speak to people without sounding like a gutter snipe, you may become worth talking to.  For other people.

Independently *funded* news I said.  I did what you could have done a search. Lets get started.  Here they are talking about 6 Companies owning the press



> The 6 Companies That Own (Almost) All Media [INFOGRAPHIC]​In modern America, it feels like you have an unlimited variety of entertainment and media options right at your fingertips.
> 
> Television, film, and video game companies seem to come out of the woodwork in today’s startup-centric economy. Who knows what they’ll do next? But while it may _seem_ like you have limitless options, most of the media you consume is owned by one of six companies.
> 
> These six media companies are known as The Big 6.
> 
> While independent media outlets still exist (and there are a _lot_ of them), the major outlets are almost all owned by these six conglomerates. To be clear, “media” in this context does not refer just to news outlets — it refers to any medium that controls the distribution of information. So here, “media” includes 24-hour news stations, newspapers, publishing houses, Internet utilities, and even video game developers.



Forbes manages to find 15 Billionaires who run your media

These 15 Billionaires Own America's News Media Companies​*It should not surprise most people to understand that these people all have similar interests and what we are finding now in the US is that those whose politics do not fit with theirs will either find themselves sacked for not saying the right thing or banned from social media sites like twitter and you tube.* I was reading about some of the stuff going on in the UK today and thinking My God it is just like we were always told communist countries were like.

What I read before is that after WW2 indeed it was probably in the 70's the US media was owned by 50 people (or companies) they are now owned by 5.  I may find that another time but this is sufficient for now.

With respect to Nato, I am surprised that you seem to be the only person who is unaware of this.



> U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University
> 
> The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.
> 
> President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2]
> 
> The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear* “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ *Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.'” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3]
> 
> This latter idea of special status for the GDR territory was codified in the final German unification treaty signed on September 12, 1990, by the Two-Plus-Four foreign ministers (see Document 25). The former idea about “closer to the Soviet borders” is written down not in treaties but in multiple memoranda of conversation between the Soviets and the highest-level Western interlocutors (Genscher, Kohl, Baker, Gates, Bush, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Major, Woerner, and others) offering assurances throughout 1990 and into 1991 about protecting Soviet security interests and including the USSR in new European security structures. The two issues were related but not the same. Subsequent analysis sometimes conflated the two and argued that the discussion did not involve all of Europe. The documents published below show clearly that it did.
> 
> *The “Tutzing formula” immediately became the center of a flurry of important diplomatic discussions over the next 10 days in 1990, leading to the crucial February 10, 1990, meeting in Moscow between Kohl and Gorbachev when the West German leader achieved Soviet assent in principle to German unification in NATO, as long as NATO did not expand to the east. The Soviets would need much more time to work with their domestic opinion (and financial aid from the West Germans) before formally signing the deal in September 1990.
> .....................
> Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that “not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.” (See Document 6)*
> 
> The full National Security Archive report is at << NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Documents: US Promised Not to Expand  NATO Eastward | MLToday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mltoday.com


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> There is not a single word of truth in your post.  Obviously, no promise about NATO not allowing eastern European states to join NATO in the future was made or could have been made and the claim that the US has only five independent news organizations is bizarre.


Dupe Alert!


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> When you yourself choose to write the truth and learn how to speak to people without sounding like a gutter snipe, you may become worth talking to.  For other people.
> 
> Independently *funded* news I said.  I did what you could have done a search. Lets get started.  Here they are talking about 6 Companies owning the press
> 
> 
> 
> Forbes manages to find 15 Billionaires who run your media
> 
> These 15 Billionaires Own America's News Media Companies​*It should not surprise most people to understand that these people all have similar interests and what we are finding now in the US is that those whose politics do not fit with theirs will either find themselves sacked for not saying the right thing or banned from social media sites like twitter and you tube.* I was reading about some of the stuff going on in the UK today and thinking My God it is just like we were always told communist countries were like.
> 
> What I read before is that after WW2 indeed it was probably in the 70's the US media was owned by 50 people (or companies) they are now owned by 5.  I may find that another time but this is sufficient for now.
> 
> With respect to Nato, I am surprised that you seem to be the only person who is unaware of this.


I suspect some of these posters are paid by the establishment to push the establishment narrative. Because really, how could they be this uninformed by accident?


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> Are you Russian?  When were you living there?  Looks to me that either you were a lot more critical then or there was more criticism in the society which itself is a positive thing,
> 
> 
> 
> what do you mean by this? Even if this was true that would not mean that what you are saying Re Russia being to blame is true..  You need to look into the situation you are talking about.  From what you have said you appear to believe US Good Russia bad.  Who is the country who has been fighting war upon war upon war for these past 20 years?  The UK can usually be found in the background helping the US trying to get itself the feeling that it is still an imperialist power.
> 
> American does not reflect any more.  I do not know when it last did but it was a long time ago and at that time it was the power of America's people who had no problems in creating uproar when the US was found acting against democracy.  Those days are long gone.  Ended September 11th  2001



It's not  a matter of bad people vs good people. People are people.

It's a matter of societal and governing structure that the people live and participate in. There are bad systems of governing (like Russia's) and there much better systems like those found in developed Democracies.



alexa said:


> You can play games with yourself but not with me.  A promise is a promise.  The US reneged on theirs.  A country which is wanting to live on good terms with their neighbours does not do this.  I don't think you have given this any study apart from the general media. At the end of WW2 the US had over 50 Independently funded media.  This is considered very important for democracies.  Now it has 5 .



US leader made an informal promise...therefore Russia invading Ukraine and annexing their land is justified?

What nonsense.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> It's not  a matter of bad people vs good people. People are people.
> 
> It's a matter of societal and governing structure that the people live and participate in. There are bad systems of governing (like Russia's) and there much better systems like those found in developed Democracies.
> 
> 
> 
> US leader made an informal promise...therefore Russia invading Ukraine and annexing their land is justified?
> 
> What nonsense.


Your absurd question is Something no one ever said. Must you always resort to strawman arguments?  It is so immature and transparent.

You might do better to stick to Ukrainian message boards.


----------



## toomuchtime_

alexa said:


> When you yourself choose to write the truth and learn how to speak to people without sounding like a gutter snipe, you may become worth talking to.  For other people.
> 
> Independently *funded* news I said.  I did what you could have done a search. Lets get started.  Here they are talking about 6 Companies owning the press
> 
> 
> 
> Forbes manages to find 15 Billionaires who run your media
> 
> These 15 Billionaires Own America's News Media Companies​*It should not surprise most people to understand that these people all have similar interests and what we are finding now in the US is that those whose politics do not fit with theirs will either find themselves sacked for not saying the right thing or banned from social media sites like twitter and you tube.* I was reading about some of the stuff going on in the UK today and thinking My God it is just like we were always told communist countries were like.
> 
> What I read before is that after WW2 indeed it was probably in the 70's the US media was owned by 50 people (or companies) they are now owned by 5.  I may find that another time but this is sufficient for now.
> 
> With respect to Nato, I am surprised that you seem to be the only person who is unaware of this.


You continue to post lies and then pretend to be offended when you are caught.



We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. _Russia behind the Headlines_ has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”









						Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”
					

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...




					www.brookings.edu
				




Were you not so dull witted and bigoted it would have been obvious to you that no pledge not to allow eastern European countries to join NATO would have been possible since no US president has that power and NATO's founding charter would not have allowed it.  We all know Putin is a liar, and you, too, c are clearly a shameless liar.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> Forbes manages to find 15 Billionaires who run your media
> 
> These 15 Billionaires Own America's News Media Companies​


You don't quite understand what you read, your source doesn't say that they own ALL American media. It just lists 15 billionares who own some major media.

Here is a list of (just the mainstream) media, by reach:





__





						Index of US Mainstream Media Ownership
					

Our goal is to provide radical transparency and a better grasp of the U.S. Mainstream Media by listing publishers (owners, majority voting shareholders, and donors of titles) considered major US daily news sources. We have time-stamped this index – May 11, 2021.  To give the index structure, we...




					projects.iq.harvard.edu
				




If you as a journalist don't like the editorial process in your media company, then there are hundreds of other media companies you can go to.



Russia? There is nowhere to go. There is no real freedom of speech and no independent media left. If you publicly oppose the leadership or the war you better shut the fuck up or the government will make you, one way or another.









						Last major Russian independent news outlet suspends operations
					

Novaya Gazeta editor says decision was ‘awful and difficult’ to make.




					www.politico.eu
				












						Journalists from Russia's last independent news network are fleeing the country
					

Journalists from the last remaining independent news network in Russia have left the country for their own safety, one day after Russia instituted a digital roadblock against the network.




					www.cnn.com
				












						At least eight Russian businessmen have died in apparent suicide or accidents in just six months
					

At least eight prominent Russian businessmen have reportedly died by suicide or in as yet unexplained accidents since late January, with six of them associated with Russia's two largest energy companies.




					www.cnn.com
				












						Chairman of Russian energy giant Lukoil dies after reportedly falling out of hospital window
					

Oil tycoon becomes the latest senior energy executive to have died in mysterious circumstances this year.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> America does not reflect any more.  I do not know when it last did but it was a long time ago and at that time it was the power of America's people who had no problems in creating uproar when the US was found acting against democracy.  Those days are long gone.  Ended September 11th  2001


That's a load of crock.

Unlike in Russia our leaders and journalists don't get murdered and jailed for opposing policies or parties. Our rights are Constitutionally protected. Our elections are relatively  open and highly competetive (a sign of vertical responsibility from the people, to the leadership), our Courts and Congress are mostly independent from Executive (horizontal responsibility among the branches of government).

Our constitutional democracy is very much alive and well thus far.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> You continue to post lies and then pretend to be offended when you are caught.
> 
> 
> 
> We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. _Russia behind the Headlines_ has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”
> 
> 
> Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.brookings.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were you not so dull witted and bigoted it would have been obvious to you that no pledge not to allow eastern European countries to join NATO would have been possible since no US president has that power and NATO's founding charter would not have allowed it.  We all know Putin is a liar, and you, too, c are clearly a shameless liar.


This from a member of Reagan’s cabinet has more validity. I suspect you're posting establishment propaganda. 

_After Reagan’s second term ended, I had less connection with his successor, his former vice president, George H. W. Bush, but *I know for an absolute fact that Secretary of State James Baker gave assurances to Gorbachev that if Gorbachev permitted the unification of Germany, NATO would not move one inch to the East. There is no doubt about this, despite the denials by American neoconservatives and Clinton regime officials.*
Mikhail Gorbachev R.I.P. - LewRockwell_


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> This from a member of Reagan’s cabinet has more validity. I suspect you're posting establishment propaganda.



More validity than Gorabachev's own take? You are on crack.









						Mikhail Gorbachev: I am against all walls
					

The first and last president of the Soviet Union spoke with RBTH about the past and how it should inform the present.




					www.rbth.com
				




And speaking of Gorbachev, he was deeply griefed by Russia's bloody invasion of Ukraine, he limited his commentary but called for quick end to conflict in Februray.









						Gorbachev died shocked and bewildered by Ukraine conflict - interpreter
					

Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, was shocked and bewildered by the Ukraine conflict in the months before he died and psychologically crushed in recent years by Moscow's worsening ties with Kyiv, his interpreter said on Thursday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> This from a member of Reagan’s cabinet has more validity. I suspect you're posting establishment propaganda.
> 
> _After Reagan’s second term ended, I had less connection with his successor, his former vice president, George H. W. Bush, but *I know for an absolute fact that Secretary of State James Baker gave assurances to Gorbachev that if Gorbachev permitted the unification of Germany, NATO would not move one inch to the East. There is no doubt about this, despite the denials by American neoconservatives and Clinton regime officials.*
> Mikhail Gorbachev R.I.P. - LewRockwell_


I hear you, but you've already told us you have nothing but shit for brains, so there's no need to repeat yourself.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> It's not  a matter of bad people vs good people. People are people.


[/QUOTE]

I am unaware I spoke of such but certainly where I live Putin is made out to be the devil incarnate who magically can organise everything Russia does all by himself.


AntonToo said:


> It's a matter of societal and governing structure that the people live and participate in.



Say what you are talking about.


AntonToo said:


> There are bad systems of governing (like Russia's) and there much better systems like those found in developed Democracies.


The difference between the two is becoming less and less.  We fought for our Democracies - although many people will tell you the US is not and never has been a democracy.  Do you understand what Democracies are?  They are a lot more than a vote every 3 or 4 years.


AntonToo said:


> US leader made an informal promise..



No this was far more than an 'informal promise.  Lets have a look



> *The “Tutzing formula” immediately became the center of a flurry of important diplomatic discussions over the next 10 days in 1990, leading to the crucial February 10, 1990, meeting in Moscow between Kohl and Gorbachev when the West German leader achieved Soviet assent in principle to German unification in NATO, as long as NATO did not expand to the east. The Soviets would need much more time to work with their domestic opinion (and financial aid from the West Germans) before formally signing the deal in September 1990.
> .....................
> Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that “not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.” (See Document 6)*
> 
> The full National Security Archive report is at << NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive>>



Russia only agreed to the reunification on Germany within the framework of NATO provided it would spread 'not an inch in the Eastern direction'.

If to you that is an 'informal promise' I would trust not one word which came out of your mouth.

(quote) Anton Too
.therefore Russia invading Ukraine and annexing their land is justified?(/quote)

Who said that?  Russia at all levels of Military intelligence, not just Putin all by himself, has been deeply worried about NATO expansionism which began straight away after the US gave it's word there would be none and most certainly has seen NATO expansionism as a very definite attack on their security and I would too.  You have double standards.  The US brought the world to the nearest it has ever been to nuclear destruction when Russia decided to bring nukes to Cuba.  Particularly given that Russia only agreed to the unification of Germany under NATO because the US promised NATO would move not one inch Eastward, the US had shown Russia, not just Putin but Russian Intelligence that the US word was worth nothing. United States intelligence was well aware that Russia had genuine fears for its security but the US/NATO carried on.  As to what eventually led to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, This and other actions certainly had a major effect but your  simplistic reasoning is simply that.



AntonToo said:


> What nonsense.


Your reasoning yes.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> That's a load of cro



Is it hell.  The only thing the US has been interested in has been keeping its place as ruler of the world and within that the US has shown itself to be a country which believes in war, war, war.  It has shown itself to be incapable of Diplomacy.  A country which is incapable of diplomacy is incapable of self reflection. It strenuously works to stop opposing thought.  Now those critical are told they should move to another country.  That is not how a Democracy works.  It is how an authoritarian State works.

It is the responsibility of a Democracy to give all of its people as near an equal chance as possible.  Since the 70's the average Joe of the US has seen their real income rise not one bit and the poorest have seen it decrease.  The richest 1% have seen an increase and the richest 0.1% have seen a massive increase in their standard of living but the people who have really seen their wealth increase are the richest 0.01%.  The United States is a country where 3 people have as much wealth as 50% of its population.








						Three People Own Half the US, While One In Five Has Nil
					

Just 400 billionaires own $2.68 trillion. That's more wealth than the bottom two thirds of the U.S. population owns.




					www.newsweek.com
				












						Bernie's Right: 3 Billionaires Really Do Have More Wealth Than Half of America
					

And in addition to the 3 billionaires Bernie mentioned, we should also be worried about the expanding fortunes of multi-generational wealth dynasties.




					inequality.org
				




The US is not a Democracy.  It is a Plutocracy.  That is a society where the Government works in the interest of the most wealthy rather than the people.  Some political theorists have been seeing it as even worse - the West turning into a new form of Despotism.





AntonToo said:


> Unlike in Russia our leaders and journalists don't get murdered and jailed for opposing policies or parties.


Not completely true.  Julian Assange for starters.   However Putin's bumping off of those who would challenge him has absolutely nothing to do with the US promising that a United Germany under Nato would be the end of NATO moving Eastward.  Rather if anything it is a response to that in that it led to a situation where Russia was sufficiently concerned about its security that the hoped for Democracy took a secondary position.


AntonToo said:


> Our rights are Constitutionally protected.


Something which people have the ability to argue in whatever direction they want.  The right of journalism has become obsolete with the intent to keep Julian Assange in jail for the rest of his life for reporting US war crimes.



AntonToo said:


> Our elections are relatively  open


Not good enough.  All the Gerrymandering and removal of votes that is going on makes you already not an honest democracy never mind your governments whether it is Democratic or Republican not serving you but the hand that feeds them.



AntonToo said:


> and highly competetive (a sign of vertical responsibility from the people, to the leadership),


Highly competitive? Who are you trying to fool?  You have two parties both of whom have to serve the hand that feeds them if they want to get into and stay in office.



AntonToo said:


> our Courts and Congress are mostly independent from Executive (horizontal responsibility among the branches of government).



Those who serve in your courts are determined by your Politicians not by an Independent authority.  Trump managed to get your Supreme court full of his people. It is not objective.


AntonToo said:


> Our constitutional democracy is very much alive and well thus far.


That is very far from the truth but you seem to be totally uneducated on it.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> I hear you, but you've already told us you have nothing but shit for brains, so there's no need to repeat yourself.


Haha. You lose.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> More validity than Gorabachev's own take? You are on crack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mikhail Gorbachev: I am against all walls
> 
> 
> The first and last president of the Soviet Union spoke with RBTH about the past and how it should inform the present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rbth.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And speaking of Gorbachev, he was deeply griefed by Russia's bloody invasion of Ukraine, he limited his commentary but called for quick end to conflict in Februray.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gorbachev died shocked and bewildered by Ukraine conflict - interpreter
> 
> 
> Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, was shocked and bewildered by the Ukraine conflict in the months before he died and psychologically crushed in recent years by Moscow's worsening ties with Kyiv, his interpreter said on Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


No. You do know what propaganda is right?


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> You don't quite understand what you read, your source doesn't say that they own ALL American media. It just lists 15 billionares who own some major media.




That may not have made things clear.  Lets look at the other one as it is becoming clear that is the one I remember though I was remembering 5 instead of 6 and it was in 1983 that the claim was they were then owned by 50 companies. Truth or Fiction looks into this one so it should be possible to find out how true that claim was..

The claim was that 6 Corporations owned 90% of news media.  You have your 10% for extras but these will be the most influential.



> The graphic, and its myriad spinoff memes, is based around the claim that just six corporations — CBS, Comcast, Disney, News Corp, Time Warner, and Viacom — own 90 percent of American “media.” One popular iteration was posted in Business Insider in June 2012 with seemingly no effort to corrorobate its origins or sourcing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .................................................
> ..................................................
> Studies published after the graphic and its variations spread show that while several of the six companies named in the original claim still do hold a tight grip on parts of U.S. television broadcast media, the industries named in other versions have been facing consolidation from other firms.
> 
> For instance, those companies are represented in a study by the advocacy group Free Press showing concentration of broadcast ownership:
> ................................
> 
> At the time the study was published, iHeartMedia (formerly known as Clear Channel) owned and/or operated 856 radio stations in 160 markets; New Media Investment, for its part, owned 432 newspapers, including 125 that published daily.
> 
> However, in August 2019, New Media tightened its grip on the newspaper industry even further after acquiring Gannett, the company that owned not only _USA Today_ but just over 250 other newspapers. The merger between the two companies was completed in November 2019.
> 
> Two other companies, Nexstar Media Group and Sinclair Television Group, dominate U.S. non-cable broadcasting; according to the Free Press study, they own a combined 334 stations between them. Sinclair — which openly presented itself as a right-wing broadcaster following Donald Trump’s election to the United States presidency — attempted to acquire Tribune Broadcasting in 2017, but was instead hit with a $48 million fine in May 2020 by the Federal Communications Commission.
> 
> *The accelerated pace of media consolidation in the U.S. is commonly attributed to two key events: the elimination of the Fairness Doctrine — which required FCC-licensed outlets to not only devote time to “controversial issues of public importance” but allow for multiple viewpoints to be addressed — in August 2011; and the enactment of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which lifted regulations on media consolidation and enabled corporations to own up to four stations in a single market, paving the way for further cross-ownership.*




so just in case you still have not got it they did an update


> *Summary of eRumor: *
> Six corporations own 90% of news media companies in America.​*The Truth:*
> This claim is true.
> 
> 
> *News Corp, Disney, Viacom, Time Warner, CBS and Comcast own 90% of the TV stations, radio stations, movies, magazines and newspapers that 277 million Americans rely on for news and entertainment.*








__





						archive.ph
					





					archive.ph
				




You can read about it fully at the link.

and please you think that by maybe being able to show Russia is worse that will be showing that the US is still a Free Democracy. It is not a competition.  It is merely showing that your belief in the US being the super duper Free Democracy is far from the truth. It's press and entertainment is owned by a few of the richest people allowing them almost free reign to influence your mind but as you have lets see how open the US press is to Russian media.



> Factchecking the Factchecker on Chomsky, Russia and Media Access​
> Millions of people in the Soviet Union, including virtually all intellectuals, had access to and tuned into Western media in the 1970s.
> ........................................................................
> 
> ince the Russian invasion of Ukraine, US-based media platforms have made an extraordinary effort to cut Western audiences off from news from a Russian perspective. When social critic Noam Chomsky pointed out how unprecedented this was, *Newsweek*‘s “factchecker” (7/26/22) declared his criticism “clearly untrue”—a determination that did more to confirm the ideological strictures of US media than to debunk them.
> 
> Soon after Russia invaded Ukraine in February, *Russia Today*, funded by the Russian government, was removed from *DirecTV* and *Dish Network* (*New York Times*, 3/12/22), *YouTube* (*France24*, 12/3/22), *TikTok*, *Meta* (*CNN*, 3/1/22) *Google News* (*Reuters*, 3/1/22) and *Spotify* (*Reuters*, 3/2/22) in the United States and/or Europe. *RT* and *Sputnik* (another Russian state–funded network) were removed from the *Apple* app store (*TechCrunch*, 3/1/22).
> *Microsoft* banned *RT* from the Windows app store, and deranked *RT* and *Sputnik* in *Bing* search results (*TechCrunch*, 3/1/22). *Google* (*Reuters*, 3/1/22), *Meta* (*Reuters* 2/26/22) and *Microsoft* (*Microsoft.com*, 2/28/22) barred *RT* from receiving any ad revenue through their platforms. *RT* was also banned by *Roku*, a streaming hardware company (*CNN*, 3/1/22).
> 
> Motivations for banning *RT* and *Sputnik* were due to “extraordinary circumstances,” in *Google*’s words (*Reuters*, 2/26/22), and to protect “against state-sponsored disinformation campaigns” (*Microsoft.com*, 2/28/22). *RT*’s offices in the US had to close down their production completely (*Washington Post*, 3/3/22).



and you ought to know how it goes, Paypal freezes accounts....but of whom?  Left wing American News



> PayPal has recently frozen the accounts of independent news outlets such as *Consortium News* (*Democracy Now!*, 7/12/22) and *MintPress* (*Democracy Now!*, 5/4/22;* FAIR.org*, 5/18/22). The circumstances around PayPal’s actions are less clear than with the actions against *RT*. The editor-in-chief of *Consortium News*, Joe Lauria, said he didn’t know why PayPal froze its account, but he suspects a clause in the user agreement against “purveying misinformation” may have been invoked (*Democracy Now!*, 7/12/22).
> 
> One of the many chilling effects of the media blackout was that *YouTube* deleted its entire archive of commentary by the Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Chris Hedges (who formerly worked for the *New York Times* and *NPR*) because it was hosted by *RT* (*Democracy Now!,* 4/1/22).











						Factchecking the Factchecker on Chomsky, Russia and Media Access
					

Millions of people in the Soviet Union, including virtually all intellectuals, had access to and tuned into Western media in the 1970s.




					scheerpost.com
				




You had better go and eat your hat if you are still going to try to argue that there is a genuine free press in the US and that a great deal of what you read is not just propaganda....and indeed if you are still into comparing access to information in the US and in Russia, read the fact check and you will find that the people of the USSR had far more access to Western News in the 70's than people in the US have to Russian now.


----------



## Bleipriester

I learned 60k special forces are just entering Ukraine.


----------



## alexa

Bleipriester said:


> I learned 60k special forces are just entering Ukraine.


whose special forces?  What are they up to?

I have found it.  They are US









						The US Special Forces are Quietly Sent to Ukraine
					

The U.S. Army’s Special Forces, better known as Green Berets, have had a deep impact on Ukraine’s fight to defend itself from a Russian invasion, despite not being directly involved in …




					whatsuptoday.org
				




would I be right in assuming that the US is now formally at war with Russia?


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> That may not have made things clear.  Lets look at the other one as it is becoming clear that is the one I remember though I was remembering 5 instead of 6 and it was in 1983 that the claim was they were then owned by 50 companies. Truth or Fiction looks into this one so it should be possible to find out how true that claim was..
> 
> The claim was that 6 Corporations owned 90% of news media.  You have your 10% for extras but these will be the most influential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so just in case you still have not got it they did an update
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.ph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.ph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read about it fully at the link.
> 
> and please you think that by maybe being able to show Russia is worse that will be showing that the US is still a Free Democracy. It is not a competition.  It is merely showing that your belief in the US being the super duper Free Democracy is far from the truth. It's press and entertainment is owned by a few of the richest people allowing them almost free reign to influence your mind but as you have lets see how open the US press is to Russian media.
> 
> 
> 
> and you ought to know how it goes, Paypal freezes accounts....but of whom?  Left wing American News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Factchecking the Factchecker on Chomsky, Russia and Media Access
> 
> 
> Millions of people in the Soviet Union, including virtually all intellectuals, had access to and tuned into Western media in the 1970s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scheerpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You had better go and eat your hat if you are still going to try to argue that there is a genuine free press in the US and that a great deal of what you read is not just propaganda....and indeed if you are still into comparing access to information in the US and in Russia, read the fact check and you will find that the people of the USSR had far more access to Western News in the 70's than people in the US have to Russian now.



Simple question - which billionaire owns CNN's editorial process? Good luck.


See unlike you I do read and fact check and I ACTUALLY WATCH RUSSIAN NEWS/POLITICAL shows and actually understand the extent of government repression of free speech and media in Russia.

What you posting is pure ignorant bullshit. I don't know who brainwashed with this nonsense but you obviously have no fucking clue about what you are talking about.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> That may not have made things clear.  Lets look at the other one as it is becoming clear that is the one I remember though I was remembering 5 instead of 6 and it was in 1983 that the claim was they were then owned by 50 companies. Truth or Fiction looks into this one so it should be possible to find out how true that claim was..
> 
> The claim was that 6 Corporations owned 90% of news media.  You have your 10% for extras but these will be the most influential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so just in case you still have not got it they did an update
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.ph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.ph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read about it fully at the link.
> 
> and please you think that by maybe being able to show Russia is worse that will be showing that the US is still a Free Democracy. It is not a competition.  It is
> 
> You had better go and eat your hat if you are still going to try to argue that there is a genuine free press in the US and that a great deal of what you read is not just propaganda....and indeed if you are still into comparing access to information in the US and in Russia, read the fact check and you will find that the people of the USSR had far more access to Western News in the 70's than people in the US have to Russian now.





alexa said:


> Is it hell.  The only thing the US has been interested in has been keeping its place as ruler of the world and within that the US has shown itself to be a country which believes in war, war, war.  It has shown itself to be incapable of Diplomacy.  A country which is incapable of diplomacy is incapable of self reflection. It strenuously works to stop opposing thought.  Now those critical are told they should move to another country.  That is not how a Democracy works.  It is how an authoritarian State works.
> 
> It is the responsibility of a Democracy to give all of its people as near an equal chance as possible.  Since the 70's the average Joe of the US has seen their real income rise not one bit and the poorest have seen it decrease.  The richest 1% have seen an increase and the richest 0.1% have seen a massive increase in their standard of living but the people who have really seen their wealth increase are the richest 0.01%.  The United States is a country where 3 people have as much wealth as 50% of its population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three People Own Half the US, While One In Five Has Nil
> 
> 
> Just 400 billionaires own $2.68 trillion. That's more wealth than the bottom two thirds of the U.S. population owns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bernie's Right: 3 Billionaires Really Do Have More Wealth Than Half of America
> 
> 
> And in addition to the 3 billionaires Bernie mentioned, we should also be worried about the expanding fortunes of multi-generational wealth dynasties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inequality.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US is not a Democracy.  It is a Plutocracy.  That is a society where the Government works in the interest of the most wealthy rather than the people.  Some political theorists have been seeing it as even worse - the West turning into a new form of Despotism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not completely true.  Julian Assange for starters.   However Putin's bumping off of those who would challenge him has absolutely nothing to do with the US promising that a United Germany under Nato would be the end of NATO moving Eastward.  Rather if anything it is a response to that in that it led to a situation where Russia was sufficiently concerned about its security that the hoped for Democracy took a secondary position.
> 
> Something which people have the ability to argue in whatever direction they want.  The right of journalism has become obsolete with the intent to keep Julian Assange in jail for the rest of his life for reporting US war crimes.
> 
> 
> Not good enough.  All the Gerrymandering and removal of votes that is going on makes you already not an honest democracy never mind your governments whether it is Democratic or Republican not serving you but the hand that feeds them.
> 
> 
> Highly competitive? Who are you trying to fool?  You have two parties both of whom have to serve the hand that feeds them if they want to get into and stay in office.
> 
> 
> 
> Those who serve in your courts are determined by your Politicians not by an Independent authority.  Trump managed to get your Supreme court full of his people. It is not objective.
> 
> That is very far from the truth but you seem to be totally uneducated on it.



I've lived in both Russia and United States and closely kept up with politics and history of both.

You seem to live somewhere on the fucking moon, getting fed a lot of bullshit. Your understandings of the two countries are badly skewed.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> That's a load of crock.
> 
> Unlike in Russia our leaders and journalists don't get murdered and jailed for opposing policies or parties. Our rights are Constitutionally protected. Our elections are relatively  open and highly competetive (a sign of vertical responsibility from the people, to the leadership), our Courts and Congress are mostly independent from Executive (horizontal responsibility among the branches of government).
> 
> Our constitutional democracy is very much alive and well thus far.


That’s absurd but coming from a Russian immigrant, it might make sense. 

The USA has become a rapacious oligarchy, not that different from Russia.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Bullshit, his job was hijacked by Putin who ordered him to reject the free trade agreement with the EU, which would have brought considerable economic benefits to Ukraine, and to embrace Russia's European Economic Union, which would have brought no benefits to Ukraine.
> Yanukovych was Putin's man in Kyiv and once he failed to deliver Ukraine to Putin peacefully, he called on Putin to invade Ukraine.


Got a link for that alleged "free" trade agreement the IMF was offering? 

The Loan That Launched A Crisis

"Late last year, with Ukraine’s state coffers running low because of overspending on political priorities like subsidizing natural gas and increasing the wages of government workers, President Viktor Yanukovych faced a choice. 

"The European Union offered a trade deal that promised to boost Ukraine’s sluggish economy *in exchange for harsh and politically unpopular austerity measures. *

"Russia offered $15 billion and didn’t ask Yanukovych to change much of anything. 

"Unsurprisingly, he rejected the EU deal and opted for Moscow’s bailout instead. 

"Thousands of angry Ukrainians took to the streets in protest, and they haven’t left."


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> That may not have made things clear.  Lets look at the other one as it is becoming clear that is the one I remember though I was remembering 5 instead of 6 and it was in 1983 that the claim was they were then owned by 50 companies. Truth or Fiction looks into this one so it should be possible to find out how true that claim was..
> 
> The claim was that 6 Corporations owned 90% of news media.  You have your 10% for extras but these will be the most influential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so just in case you still have not got it they did an update
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.ph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.ph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read about it fully at the link.
> 
> and please you think that by maybe being able to show Russia is worse that will be showing that the US is still a Free Democracy. It is not a competition.  It is merely showing that your belief in the US being the super duper Free Democracy is far from the truth. It's press and entertainment is owned by a few of the richest people allowing them almost free reign to influence your mind but as you have lets see how open the US press is to Russian media.
> 
> 
> 
> and you ought to know how it goes, Paypal freezes accounts....but of whom?  Left wing American News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Factchecking the Factchecker on Chomsky, Russia and Media Access
> 
> 
> Millions of people in the Soviet Union, including virtually all intellectuals, had access to and tuned into Western media in the 1970s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scheerpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You had better go and eat your hat if you are still going to try to argue that there is a genuine free press in the US and that a great deal of what you read is not just propaganda....and indeed if you are still into comparing access to information in the US and in Russia, read the fact check and you will find that the people of the USSR had far more access to Western News in the 70's than people in the US have to Russian now.


On top of knowing nothing about Ukrainian history or American history, he now admits he doesn’t know the MSM is controlled by six billionaires. WTF!


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> I've lived in both Russia and United States and closely kept up with politics and history of both.
> 
> You seem to live somewhere on the fucking moon, getting fed a lot of bullshit. Your understandings of the two countries are badly skewed.


It’s apparent you’ve fooled yourself.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Simple question - which billionaire owns CNN's editorial process? Good luck.
> 
> 
> See unlike you I do read and fact check and I ACTUALLY WATCH RUSSIAN NEWS/POLITICAL shows and actually understand the extent of government repression of free speech and media in Russia.
> 
> What you posting is pure ignorant bullshit. I don't know who brainwashed with this nonsense but you obviously have no fucking clue about what you are talking about.


I bet you don’t know who owns Wapo. Lol.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again, with these bizarre rants against the US you demonstrate that you find it impossible to defend Russia's heinous crimes but support them anyway.


You ducked the question again,
How many innocent civilians has the US military killed, maimed, and displaced since 1945?
Can you name any other country which has contributed a bigger threat to world peace?


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> You ducked the question again,
> How many innocent civilians has the US military killed, maimed, and displaced since 1945?
> Can you name any other country which has contributed a bigger threat to world peace?


They can’t see their blatant hypocrisy. 

Proof the establishment can easily dupe many.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I bet you don’t know who owns Wapo. Lol.


I bet you will keep deflecting when you can't actually address what you quote.

It's just what pathetic assholes like you do.

The question was - which billionaire owns CNN? If you don't want to answer directly then how about nice hot cup of stfu?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> That’s absurd but coming from a Russian immigrant, it might make sense.
> 
> The USA has become a rapacious oligarchy, not that different from Russia.



Not different? 

Moron I've just listed HUGE systemic differences, not a single one you can actually address.

Compared to Russia our society and governing is free, fair and open. 

Our politicians and media is free to criticize the government and in fact opposition makes it their full time occupation.

We have vertical and horizontal responsibility - from voters to politicians, from courts to Congress to Executive.

None of that exists in Russia. All the power has been consolidated to the executive and there is no real opposition or freedom of speech.

You are one seriously ignorant fool.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> There is no rational scenario in which Russia wins, or even survives, this war unless the western allies surrender to Putin this winter.  There is no way the grossly incompetent Russian military can prevail on the battlefield unless it uses its nukes to kill then of millions of Ukrainians and even then it will not survive the never ending sanctions.


Your assessment of the Russian military's competence is delusional, at best. The Russian-speaking coalition controlled about 8% of Ukrainian real estate last February; they control 20% today:




"After more than six months of war, it can be said that the Russian army is effective and efficient, and that the quality of its command & control far exceeds what we see in the West. 

"But our perception is influenced by a reporting that is focused on the Ukrainian side, and by distortions of reality.

"Firstly, there is the reality on the ground. 

"It should be remembered that what the media call 'Russians' is in fact a Russian-speaking coalition, composed of professional Russian fighters and soldiers of the popular militias of Donbass. 

"The operations in the Donbass are mainly carried out by these militias, *who fight on 'their' terrain, in towns and villages they know and where they have friends and family. *

"They are therefore advancing cautiously for themselves, but also to avoid civilian casualties. 

"Thus, despite the claims of western propaganda, *the coalition enjoys a very good popular support in the areas it occupies."*

Our latest interview with Jacques Baud | MR Online


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> I bet you will keep deflecting when you can't actually address what you quote.
> 
> It's just what pathetic assholes like you do.
> 
> The question was - which billionaire owns CNN? If you don't want to answer directly then how about nice hot cup of stfu?


I thought you didn’t want to derail the thread with other topics, yet you’re on to this.  Funny you!

Do you think CNN is the entire MSM?

Billionaire Paul Singer owns much of CNN’s parent company. You do know how to use Google no?  LOL. 

Billionaire activist Paul Singer reveals $3.2B stake in AT&T


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Not different?
> 
> Moron I've just listed HUGE systemic differences, not a single one you can actually address.
> 
> Compared to Russia our society and governing is free, fair and open.
> 
> Our politicians and media is free to criticize the government and in fact opposition makes it their full time occupation.
> 
> We have vertical and horizontal responsibility - from voters to politicians, from courts to Congress to Executive.
> 
> None of that exists in Russia. All the power has been consolidated to the executive and there is no real opposition or freedom of speech.
> 
> You are one seriously ignorant fool.


You could list a thousand things, but they’d be wrong. You can’t help but be wrong, because you are uninformed.

The US is a rapacious oligarchy. Learn it my son!


----------



## Redfish

alexa said:


> This is just nonsense and could not be further from the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What percentage of Ukrainians want to join Russia?
> 
> 
> Answer (1 of 28): Most are undecided (Ukraine has been a bad place to live in, but there’s so much propaganda about Russia). Some are pro Russia, some are pro Western. Most just want a better life. Historically Ukrainians have been pro Russian (brotherly peoples and shared history) and the consta...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.quora.com


your quote verifies what I said.  Are you loony?


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Your assessment of the Russian military's competence is delusional, at best. The Russian-speaking coalition controlled about 8% of Ukrainian real estate last February; they control 20% today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "After more than six months of war, it can be said that the Russian army is effective and efficient, and that the quality of its command & control far exceeds what we see in the West.
> 
> "But our perception is influenced by a reporting that is focused on the Ukrainian side, and by distortions of reality.
> 
> "Firstly, there is the reality on the ground.
> 
> "It should be remembered that what the media call 'Russians' is in fact a Russian-speaking coalition, composed of professional Russian fighters and soldiers of the popular militias of Donbass.
> 
> "The operations in the Donbass are mainly carried out by these militias, *who fight on 'their' terrain, in towns and villages they know and where they have friends and family. *
> 
> "They are therefore advancing cautiously for themselves, but also to avoid civilian casualties.
> 
> "Thus, despite the claims of western propaganda, *the coalition enjoys a very good popular support in the areas it occupies."*
> 
> Our latest interview with Jacques Baud | MR Online



Wow. 

You post this after Russian army embarased itself internationally and got it's back broken trying to take Kiev? 

Army that lost ~80,000 for incremental gains against an inferior opposition in what has now stretched into a long term conflict because they are unable to achieve any of their goals?

You are a total tool if you believe that.


----------



## Redfish

alexa said:


> whose special forces?  What are they up to?
> 
> I have found it.  They are US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US Special Forces are Quietly Sent to Ukraine
> 
> 
> The U.S. Army’s Special Forces, better known as Green Berets, have had a deep impact on Ukraine’s fight to defend itself from a Russian invasion, despite not being directly involved in …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whatsuptoday.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would I be right in assuming that the US is now formally at war with Russia?


with the idiot we have in the white house that is very possible.   Sending US troops to Ukraine would be an act of lunacy.


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> Wow.
> 
> You post this after Russian army embarased itself internationally and got it's back broken trying to take Kiev?
> 
> Army that lost ~80,000 for incremental gains against an inferior opposition in what has now stretched into a long term conflict because they are unable to achieve any of their goals?
> 
> You are a total tool if you believe that.


then let Russia fail, its none of our damn business.


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> then let Russia fail, its none of our damn business.



They will fail BECAUSE it is our business to support Ukraine.

Ukraine has the will and commitment to fight for their young democracy and freedom, but they need our weapons to beat back the invaders.


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> with the idiot we have in the white house that is very possible.   Sending US troops to Ukraine would be an act of lunacy.



How the hell is it possible when Biden has consistently opposed any such thing?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You could list a thousand things, but they’d be wrong. You can’t help but be wrong, because you are uninformed.
> 
> The US is a rapacious oligarchy. Learn it my son!



That's right, all you have are baseless assertions  I've already proven to be total nonsense.

Get lost bs peddler.


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> They will fail BECAUSE it is our business to support Ukraine.
> 
> Ukraine has the will and commitment to fight for their young democracy and freedom, but they need our weapons to beat back the invaders.


Why is it our business to support corrupt Ukraine?  to keep the bribes flowing to the Biden and Pelosi families?

Ukraine is not a "young democracy" are you fricken crazy?  it is one of the most corrupt countries on earth that treats its citizens like shit.   it is not worth the life of one american in uniform.   wake the fuck up and STFU with your lies and bullshit before more innocent american lives are lost to keep the Bidens rich.


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> Why is it our business to support corrupt Ukraine?  to keep the bribes flowing to the Biden and Pelosi families?
> 
> Ukraine is not a "young democracy" are you fricken crazy?  it is one of the most corrupt countries on earth that treats its citizens like shit.   it is not worth the life of one american in uniform.   wake the fuck up and STFU with your lies and bullshit before more innocent american lives are lost to keep the Bidens rich.



Horseshit. You obviously know nothing about Ukraine except that they griefed your Dear Leader when he tried to extort them for dirt on his political opponent.

Ukranians have committed themself to open, constitutional democracy and reforms required to integrate with the EU. They affirmed it with their blood.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> You ducked the question again,
> How many innocent civilians has the US military killed, maimed, and displaced since 1945?
> Can you name any other country which has contributed a bigger threat to world peace?


I wonder why the comments of the Mexican president Andrés Manuel López Obrador wasn’t reported in mainstream western news outlets, when he said to the Ukrainians, “We provide the weapons, you provide the corpses!”


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> Horseshit. You obviously know nothing about Ukraine, except that their griefed your Dear Leader when he tried to extort them.


A lot more than you do, obviously.   Why was Hunter paid 80K per month to sit on the board of a Ukrainian gas company?  are you so dense that you cannot see bribery when it hits you in the face?   Then the 'big guy" got the prosecutor fired who was investigating the gas company and its illegal bribe scheme.   Its amazing how ignorant you libs are about what's really going on in the world.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> They will fail BECAUSE it is our business to support Ukraine.
> 
> Ukraine has the will and commitment to fight for their young democracy and freedom, but they need our weapons to beat back the invaders.


I’m still waiting for that list of interests Americans have in Ukraine, that you claimed. Hunter Biden’s interests don’t count. Lol.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Horseshit. You obviously know nothing about Ukraine except that they griefed your Dear Leader when he tried to extort them for dirt on his political opponent.


This from a guy who thinks Russia is losing. Lol.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> That's right, all you have are baseless assertions  I've already proven to be total nonsense.
> 
> Get lost bs peddler.


You prove your ignorance with every post.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> This from a guy who thinks Russia is losing. Lol.



They "won" themselves an economic, military, social and moral quagmire.

This historic stain is not coming out anytime soon.


----------



## gipper

Redfish said:


> A lot more than you do, obviously.   Why was Hunter paid 80K per month to sit on the board of a Ukrainian gas company?  are you so dense that you cannot see bribery when it hits you in the face?   Then the 'big guy" got the prosecutor fired who was investigating the gas company and its illegal bribe scheme.   Its amazing how ignorant you libs are about what's really going on in the world.


He claims to be a Russian immigrant to the US. He hates Russia and believes all the propaganda the western media puts out about this war is TRUE!


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> They "won" themselves an economic, social and moral quagmire.
> 
> This historic stain is not coming out anytime soon.


Go sell your Nazi shit somewhere else. No one here buys your lies.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Go sell your Nazi shit somewhere else. No one here buys your lies.



Hmm Nazis, weren't those the guys that started the war and invaded other countries under false pretenses of needing to protect oppressed German speakers?

I recall there were a lot of tools like you blaming someone else when they did that.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Wow.
> 
> You post this after Russian army embarased itself internationally and got it's back broken trying to take Kiev?
> 
> Army that lost ~80,000 for incremental gains against an inferior opposition in what has now stretched into a long term conflict because they are unable to achieve any of their goals?
> 
> You are a total tool if you believe that.


Lol. The Russians never had any intention of taking Kiev. 

Do you know what the word “feint” means in a military sense?  Yeah…thought so.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Hmm Nazis, weren't those the guys that started the war and invaded other countries under false pretenses of needing to protect oppressed German speakers?
> 
> I recall there were a lot of tools like you blaming someone else when they did that.


I wasn’t around during WWII. Where you?  

Guess what my deluded little Russian hater, the internet wasn’t either. Lol.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> He claims to be a Russian immigrant to the US. He hates Russia and believes all the propaganda the western media puts out about this war is TRUE!



I certainly don't hate Russia and want for the people of my birthplace peace, freedom and prosperity.

What I hate is what Putin's regime has now done to it, especially in recent years of his increasingly militant and corrupt totalitarian rule. He is destroying all progress made and setting Russia back for decades.

I hope Russians find the will and the guts to reject their current state of authoritarianism and fix their disfunctional political system.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol. The Russians never had any intention of taking Kiev.



Yep, total moron.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I wasn’t around during WWII. Where you?
> 
> Guess what my deluded little Russian hater, the internet wasn’t either. Lol.



It's called history. Maybe you should read some of it.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> Simple question - which billionaire owns CNN's editorial process? Good luck.
> 
> 
> See unlike you I do read and fact check and I ACTUALLY WATCH RUSSIAN NEWS/POLITICAL shows and actually understand the extent of government repression of free speech and media in Russia.
> 
> What you posting is pure ignorant bullshit. I don't know who brainwashed with this nonsense but you obviously have no fucking clue about what you are talking about.


You have been given full proof and all you are responding with is insults.  On any other board you would be banned.  What a time waster.  Anton Too "Oh excuse me I am determined not to look at evidence so that I can carry on saying things which are not true and insulting the person who takes the time to find the truth."


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> I've lived in both Russia and United States and closely kept up with politics and history of both.
> 
> You seem to live somewhere on the fucking moon, getting fed a lot of bullshit. Your understandings of the two countries are badly skewed.


Again, you were provided with evidence.  You again could not argue that evidence because it was accurate.  Not being able to argue against what was written you engage in insults.  I will remember you and know not to believe a word you say.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> You have been given full proof and all you are responding with is insults.  On any other board you would be banned.  What a time waster.  Anton Too "Oh excuse me I am determined not to look at evidence so that I can carry on saying things which are not true and insulting the person who takes the time to find the truth."



You didn't answer the question - which billionaire owns CNN?

 It's because you can't, can you?


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> Again, you were provided with evidence.  You again could not argue that evidence because it was accurate.  Not being able to argue against what was written you engage in insults.  I will remember you and know not to believe a word you say.


It’s typical for him.


----------



## alexa

Redfish said:


> your quote verifies what I said.  Are you loony?


I can see that I did not put that clearly in.  I also see you are another of those people incapable of communication without being abusive.  Your claim was that in a poll over half of the people of Ukraine had said they want to be part of Russia.  You were asked to produce a link but refused.  The link I provided gave information on this issue and it is the opposite of what you said,



> According to polls, only 3% of the Ukrainian population want to merge into Russia. Even many ethnic Russians, who live in Ukraine, don't want to become a part of Putinist Russia.
> 
> Ukrainians do not want to join the Russian Federation.
> 
> According to a December 2016 survey of both Ukrainians and Russians, around 3% of Ukrainians wanted to join the RF, down from about 24% in 2009. Nearly 50% of Ukrainians wanted closed borders with Russia, compared to fewer than 20% of them before the 2014 attack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> {/quote]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What percentage of Ukrainians want to join Russia?
> 
> 
> Answer (1 of 28): Most are undecided (Ukraine has been a bad place to live in, but there’s so much propaganda about Russia). Some are pro Russia, some are pro Western. Most just want a better life. Historically Ukrainians have been pro Russian (brotherly peoples and shared history) and the consta...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.quora.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is 2026 and it is the opposite of what you claim.  If you have evidence that since being attacked by Russia and being arrested if they have a good word to say about Russia the people of Ukraine now in a majority want to be part of Russia provide it.  The chances are virtually nil so I look forward to you showing that you are not just a looney yourself.


----------



## alexa

gipper said:


> It’s typical for him.


Ah.  he is a waste of time.


----------



## Redfish

alexa said:


> I can see that I did not put that clearly in.  I also see you are another of those people incapable of communication without being abusive.  Your claim was that in a poll over half of the people of Ukraine had said they want to be part of Russia.  You were asked to produce a link but refused.  The link I provided gave information on this issue and it is the opposite of what you said,


more like 41%  see this one








						Poll shows 41% of Ukrainians agree with Putin's 'one nation' claim, but question was tweaked - Jul. 28, 2021
					

A striking 41% of Ukrainian respondents to a poll agreed with Russian President… - Jul. 28, 2021. By Kvitka Perehinets




					www.kyivpost.com


----------



## alexa

Redfish said:


> more like 41%  see this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll shows 41% of Ukrainians agree with Putin's 'one nation' claim, but question was tweaked - Jul. 28, 2021
> 
> 
> A striking 41% of Ukrainian respondents to a poll agreed with Russian President… - Jul. 28, 2021. By Kvitka Perehinets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kyivpost.com


I don't think you read the article.  That poll is believed to be deceptive as the people were given different information some of which was true and some false and this will have influenced them.



> “The way the (Rating Group) question is phrased is simply manipulative,” Haran told the Kyiv Post. “In the original article, Putin mentions the two components of the question separately – first, he claims that Russians and Ukrainians are one people, then later he brings up the notion of Ukraine and Russia being part of a united historical and spiritual space.”
> 
> “While the ‘one people’ claim is utter nonsense, it’s different in the case of ‘Ukraine and Russia share the same history’ because they do,” he added.



Your link, 

 From what the article says this poll is worthless.  Even taking that into account it does not say what you said earlier which was that over 50% of the people of Ukraine wanted to be in the Russia Federation.  I suggest you go find the first one which you claimed said this.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> It's called history. Maybe you should read some of it.


I don’t suppose you know anything about the authoritarian actions taken by Zelensky and the Ukrainian government. Like so many other topics we’ve exposed in this thread, you are terribly uninformed. 

What do you think of this?

_The mainstream media do not present the war as it is, but as they would like it to be. This is pure wishful thinking. The apparent public support for the Ukrainian authorities, despite huge losses (some mention 70,000-80,000 fatalities), is achieved by banning the opposition, a ruthless hunt for officials who disagree with the government line, and “mirror” propaganda that attributes to the Russians the same failures as the Ukrainians. All this with the conscious support of the West.
Our latest interview with Jacques Baud | MR Online_


----------



## Redfish

alexa said:


> I don't think you read the article.  That poll is believed to be deceptive as the people were given different information some of which was true and some false and this will have influenced them.
> 
> 
> 
> Your link,
> 
> From what the article says this poll is worthless.  Even taking that into account it does not say what you said earlier which was that over 50% of the people of Ukraine wanted to be in the Russia Federation.  I suggest you go find the first one which you claimed said this.


yes, pollsters lie and ask leading questions to get the answers they want.   probably none of them are accurate, so my comments are based on my experience in the world and my knowledge of that part of europe and its people.

we have polls here in the US that say that around 30% of americans support Biden when we all know that the reality is that only about 10% of left wing zealots support him and even many on the far left are leaving him.   Polls are designed to influence public opinion, not to report on it.  Sad but true.


----------



## Bleipriester

alexa said:


> whose special forces?  What are they up to?
> 
> I have found it.  They are US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US Special Forces are Quietly Sent to Ukraine
> 
> 
> The U.S. Army’s Special Forces, better known as Green Berets, have had a deep impact on Ukraine’s fight to defend itself from a Russian invasion, despite not being directly involved in …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whatsuptoday.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would I be right in assuming that the US is now formally at war with Russia?


I mean Russian forces. With tanks and all.


----------



## para bellum

Bleipriester said:


> I mean Russian forces. With tanks and all.


Wait a minute. You are calling the newly formed 3AC "60K special forces"?


----------



## alexa

Bleipriester said:


> I mean Russian forces. With tanks and all.


Oh another mistake of mine. That was last March which would mean Russia was right about them being there.  What do you expect from these Special Forces?  Tanks are not knew?  Do you have a link?


----------



## Ringo

Brigadier General of the US Armed Forces Mark Kimmitt on the pages of The Wall Street Journal said that the supply of 105-mm howitzers and artillery ammunition of smaller caliber to Ukraine is a wake–up call indicating big problems both in the US and in Ukraine.

The delivery of such a caliber indicates that even such a militarily powerful power as the United States is running out of free stocks of modern weapons.

The 105 mm caliber was abandoned in the USA and NATO due to low efficiency and high consumption. Where one 155 mm projectile is enough, you need to spend 12-15 ammunition of a smaller caliber.

The general makes a disappointing conclusion for the Kiev authorities:

The latest systems are outdated and less advanced than those that were delivered earlier. This may indicate that the rate of consumption on the battlefield has exceeded production to such an extent that the excess reserves provided to Ukraine are almost exhausted. If this is the case, then NATO will have to deal with dwindling stocks of advanced weapons systems

Weakening Western military assistance to Ukraine will create serious problems for President Zelensky. Moreover, it is not only about the difficulties that will inevitably arise on the battlefield.

It will be increasingly difficult for the Ukrainian president to explain to his citizens why such important and advertised Western support suddenly begins to dry up. In such a situation, Kimmitt is sure, it's time for Zelensky to move on to a diplomatic settlement of the conflict with Russia.

Until the time has come for an unambiguous answer to the question "For whom is the bell ringing?"


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I don’t suppose you know anything about the authoritarian actions taken by Zelensky and the Ukrainian government. Like so many other topics we’ve exposed in this thread, you are terribly uninformed.
> 
> What do you think of this?
> 
> _The mainstream media do not present the war as it is, but as they would like it to be. This is pure wishful thinking. The apparent public support for the Ukrainian authorities, despite huge losses (some mention 70,000-80,000 fatalities), is achieved by banning the opposition, a ruthless hunt for officials who disagree with the government line, and “mirror” propaganda that attributes to the Russians the same failures as the Ukrainians. All this with the conscious support of the West.
> Our latest interview with Jacques Baud | MR Online_



Yep, yet another deflection instead of actual address of what you quote.

Your bullshit is like clockwork


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> yes, pollsters lie and ask leading questions to get the answers they want.   probably none of them are accurate, so my comments are based on my experience in the world and my knowledge of that part of europe and its people.
> 
> we have polls here in the US that say that around 30% of americans support Biden when we all know that the reality is that only about 10% of left wing zealots support him and even many on the far left are leaving him.   Polls are designed to influence public opinion, not to report on it.  Sad but true.



10% support for Biden? That's what you seriously believe, in contradiction TO ALL POLLING EVER CONDUCTED?

kinda brings us to a follow up question - was there repeated blunt trauma to your head when you were little?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, yet another deflection instead of actual address of what you quote.
> 
> Your bullshit is like clockwork


Why do you always accuse me of what you do?  

Here I am trying my very best to inform an uninformed Russian, yet you fail to comprehend my wonderfulness.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Why do you always accuse me of what you do?
> 
> Here I am trying my very best to inform an uninformed Russian, yet you fail to comprehend my wonderfulness.



Bullshit, when I address your post I address it head on instead of playing your pathetic dodge games.


----------



## gipper

Ringo said:


> Brigadier General of the US Armed Forces Mark Kimmitt on the pages of The Wall Street Journal said that the supply of 105-mm howitzers and artillery ammunition of smaller caliber to Ukraine is a wake–up call indicating big problems both in the US and in Ukraine.
> 
> The delivery of such a caliber indicates that even such a militarily powerful power as the United States is running out of free stocks of modern weapons.
> 
> The 105 mm caliber was abandoned in the USA and NATO due to low efficiency and high consumption. Where one 155 mm projectile is enough, you need to spend 12-15 ammunition of a smaller caliber.
> 
> The general makes a disappointing conclusion for the Kiev authorities:
> 
> The latest systems are outdated and less advanced than those that were delivered earlier. This may indicate that the rate of consumption on the battlefield has exceeded production to such an extent that the excess reserves provided to Ukraine are almost exhausted. If this is the case, then NATO will have to deal with dwindling stocks of advanced weapons systems
> 
> Weakening Western military assistance to Ukraine will create serious problems for President Zelensky. Moreover, it is not only about the difficulties that will inevitably arise on the battlefield.
> 
> It will be increasingly difficult for the Ukrainian president to explain to his citizens why such important and advertised Western support suddenly begins to dry up. In such a situation, Kimmitt is sure, it's time for Zelensky to move on to a diplomatic settlement of the conflict with Russia.
> 
> Until the time has come for an unambiguous answer to the question "For whom is the bell ringing?"


It is most ironic that the West is harming itself economically by terminating Russian energy imports, but also militarily by using up it’s war material.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Bullshit, when I address your post I address it head on instead of playing your pathetic dodge games.


Sorry no. You’re Russian and have shown an inability to understand written English. I’m not a fucking English teacher. So, you’re on your own.


----------



## alexa

gipper said:


> Why do you always accuse me of what you do?
> 
> Here I am trying my very best to inform an uninformed Russian, yet you fail to comprehend my wonderfulness.


It's called projection.  When a person can't accept a part of them self they see it instead in other people.


----------



## alexa

gipper said:


> It is most ironic that the West is harming itself economically by terminating Russian energy imports, but also militarily by using up it’s war material.


Maybe that is why Russia doesn't seem that worried.


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> Maybe that is why Russia doesn't seem that worried.


True. They seem to be doing very well economically without the West. Other nations are witnessing this and may follow their example.


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> 10% support for Biden? That's what you seriously believe, in contradiction TO ALL POLLING EVER CONDUCTED?
> 
> kinda brings us to a follow up question - was there repeated blunt trauma to your head when you were little?


What I said is that pollsters lie,  but even those liars are saying Biden's support is in the 30% range, so my assumption that the real support is around 10% is reasonable.  Prove me wrong if you can.  and don't try to do it with a CNN poll.


----------



## toomuchtime_

Redfish said:


> What I said is that pollsters lie,  but even those liars are saying Biden's support is in the 30% range, so my assumption that the real support is around 10% is reasonable.  Prove me wrong if you can.  and don't try to do it with a CNN poll.


Biden's approval rating is low, but not nearly that low.









						RealClearPolitics - Election Other - President Biden Job Approval
					

RealClearPolitics - Election Other - President Biden Job Approval




					www.realclearpolitics.com
				




Worse, you can see from the graph it is steadily improving.

Still worse, for the  upcoming midterms, Democrats and Republicans seem to be running neck and neck to neck.









						RealClearPolitics - Election Other - 2022 Generic Congressional Vote
					

RealClearPolitics - Election Other - 2022 Generic Congressional Vote




					www.realclearpolitics.com


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> A made up threat to enrich the war profiteers. Old tactic but it still works on the uninformed.


For you yes. For the Poles, the Balts and a significant part of Ukrainians NATO is seen as a security umbrella from a real threat.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> For you yes. For the Poles, the Balts and a significant part of Ukrainians NATO is seen as a security umbrella from a real threat.


I don’t doubt that. However I’m an American not a Ukrainian like you. So, I’m tired of my corrupt criminal government instigating, supporting, and committing war all over the world. It’s none of our business. You go fight your own fucking wars.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> I don’t doubt that. However I’m an American not a Ukrainian like you. So, I’m tired of my corrupt criminal government instigating, supporting, and committing war all over the world. It’s none of our business. You go fight your own fucking wars.


You are full of shit.  You have been praising and supporting Putin's war in Ukraine not posting concern about America.  You are clearly pro Russian and anti Ukrainian, not pro American.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> I don’t doubt that. However I’m an American not a Ukrainian like you. So, I’m tired of my corrupt criminal government instigating, supporting, and committing war all over the world. It’s none of our business. You go fight your own fucking wars.


I am okay with that, choose the government that will fulfil your desires and be happy. That is not what concerns me the most. What does is that Easten Europe doesn't have economic and cultural basis to form a sustainable union. But that is a different story.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> There are no facts to support your ridiculous claim that Ukraine was in any way part of NATO. The only mention of Ukraine joining NATO was the fact it would not be allowed to join. NATO never sent any weapons to Ukraine, but some NATO member states did. At first the weapons that were sent were left over Soviet weapons and when these ran out weapons that met NATO standards were sent because those were the only weapons these states had.


When NATO states supply NATO compatible weapons to Ukraine, when NATO military personnel train brigades of Ukrainian military personnel, Ukraine becomes a _de facto_ NATO state. Russia has been making it clear for twenty years this will not be tolerated; it will destroy Ukraine before allowing that threat on its border.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Russia's pledge to never violate Ukraine's borders was not abrogated by the fake that Ukraine received military aid from some NATO members; all Russian treaties, agreements, understandings and pledges were trashed the moment Putin came to power and that is why there can be no new agreements with Russia while he remains in power.


Russia's pledge was broken after the US helped instigate and fully supported a violent, illegal coup in 2014 that drove a duly elected president from office. This instance of meddling was simply among the latest in a long line of US provocations on Russian borders aimed at promoting regime change in Moscow.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> When NATO states supply NATO compatible weapons to Ukraine, when NATO military personnel train brigades of Ukrainian military personnel, Ukraine becomes a _de facto_ NATO state. Russia has been making it clear for twenty years this will not be tolerated; it will destroy Ukraine before allowing that threat on its border.


As you say, this is being done by some states that belong to NATO but not by  NATO.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Russian border is in the middle of Ukraine?
> 
> Since when?


No idea.

Got a map?


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Russia's pledge was broken after the US helped instigate and fully supported a violent, illegal coup in 2014 that drove a duly elected president from office. This instance of meddling was simply among the latest in a long line of US provocations on Russian borders aimed at promoting regime change in Moscow.


This nonsensical claim doesn't become any less stupid with repetition.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> I watched it on Tuesday. Literally most of what they say on their primetime political shows is laughable, transparent propaganda.


So it shouldn't be too challenging for you to provide specific examples.
Go ahead; start with Snake Island.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are full of shit.  You have been praising and supporting Putin's war in Ukraine not posting concern about America.  You are clearly pro Russian and anti Ukrainian, not pro American.


Where have I praised Putin’s war? 

There are no concerns for America from this war. Only fools believe that propaganda put out by the war machine.

Only dupes dummies and dumb MFers believe criticizing this war means you’re pro-Russian and un-American. Funny how this happens with every war pushed by the establishment.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Where have a praised Putin’s war?
> 
> There are no concerns for America from this war. Only fools believe that propaganda put out by the war machine.
> 
> Only dupes dummies and dumb MFers believe criticizing this war means your pro-Russian and un-American. Funny how this happens with every war pushed by the establishment.


You are not criticizing the war.  You are supporting Russia's war, attacking Ukraine and attacking America.  Every position you have taken is  straight out of Putin's propaganda.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are not criticizing the war.  You are supporting Russia's war, attacking Ukraine and attacking America.  Every position you have taken is  straight out of Putin's propaganda.


English must be your second language. Are you a member of the Azov?


----------



## gipper

Some Euros are waking up.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Here in the states we have true political opposition and media viewpoint diversity to challenge reporting.


Give us a few examples of MSM accounts of dead Russian-speakers in Donbass since 2014; when did any MSM sources mention the 70% pay increase Ukrainian  parliamentarians voted to give themselves last month?

I've been alive for 75 years, and I've never seen as much blatant propaganda and as many lies coming from US sources about the US-provoked war in Ukraine. If that's your idea of media diversity, you should move to Ukraine.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> I am okay with that, choose the government that will fulfil your desires and be happy. That is not what concerns me the most. What does is that Easten Europe doesn't have economic and cultural basis to form a sustainable union. But that is a different story.


Looks like some of your countrymen are Nazis.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are full of shit.  You have been praising and supporting Putin's war in Ukraine not posting concern about America.  You are clearly pro Russian and anti Ukrainian, not pro American.


Now is the time to stop the war and negotiate. It’s only going to get worse.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are full of shit.  You have been praising and supporting Putin's war in Ukraine not posting concern about America.  You are clearly pro Russian and anti Ukrainian, not pro American.


It's not okay for grown adults to call the invasion of Ukraine "unprovoked"; that's a fartbrained fairy tale for idiots and children. You have a whole internet full of information at your fingertips. Fucking use it.

Stop being a fartbrained idiot.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Now is the time to stop the war and negotiate. It’s only going to get worse.


Only a moron would suggest negotiating with Putin who has dismissed very law and every treaty that stands in his way of expanding the Russian empire westward.  Every poll shows that over 90% of Ukrainians believe they will win the war, so the war only ends if the western allies abandon or the Russian economy becomes to weak to support the war and withdraws.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> It's not okay for grown adults to call the invasion of Ukraine "unprovoked"; that's a fartbrained fairy tale for idiots and children. You have a whole internet full of information at your fingertips. Fucking use it.
> 
> Stop being a fartbrained idiot.


You continue to try to push Putin's lies but no one is buying them except Putin loyalists like yourself.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> You continue to try to push Putin's lies but no one is buying them except Putin loyalists like yourself.


Time to surrender Adolf.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Time to surrender Adolf.


There you go again, nothing but Putin's propaganda in any of your posts.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> There you go again, nothing but Putin's propaganda in any of your posts.


Surrender Nazi!


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Looks like some of your countrymen are Nazis.


Football ultras were the basis of first volunteer battalions back in 2014.


----------



## Ringo

"No matter what my German voters think.”  Nice! Democracy rules!


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Football ultras were the basis of first volunteer battalions back in 2014.


?


----------



## gipper

Ringo said:


> "No matter what my German voters think.”  Nice! Democracy rules!


Yeah Democracy!


----------



## gipper

Ringo said:


> "No matter what my German voters think.”  Nice! Democracy rules!


U.S. propaganda is so sophisticated that it convinces people that we’re bringing democracy to the world when we haven’t even brought anything that resembles a democracy to our own shores. The U.S. brings capitalism, militarism, and oligarchy to the world and calls it “democracy.”


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Horseshit, American weapons used everyday.
> 
> Parliamentarian salaries are a drop in the bucket. If you knew anything at all you'd know that.


Why should US taxpayers subsidize Ukrainian corruption?

Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone

"Donated protective military equipment and combat medical supplies have flooded Ukraine’s online marketplaces. 

"Sellers are careful to hide their identities, often creating new vendor accounts for each sale and willing to fulfill orders exclusively by mail. 

"'We have found armored helmets given as aid from the Americans for sale on websites,' Ivan said. 'You know, inside the helmet, the class of protection and brand are written. We saw this brand before and realized the helmets were the ones given to us as aid.' 

"'Some of us tried to contact the sellers to set up a meeting, so we could prove they were selling stolen aid, but they were suspicious and stopped responding to us.”

"Ivan says he has heard about the theft of weapons donated from Western countries, but pointed out that *several soldiers in his unit are sharing a single AK-74.* 'I wouldn’t know about how they’re stealing the weapons, *because the weapons never reach the Ukrainian soldiers in the first place,...*'”


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Give us a few examples of MSM accounts of dead Russian-speakers in Donbass since 2014;



Wtf does that prove? If someone speaks Russian then suddenly Russia has a right to invade a country?

By that reasoning France has a right to invade Canada because they have some internal hostilities. Right?

Nazis were making all the same arguments when they invaded Poland. It's nothing but a half-baked excuse to go grab some land.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Why should US taxpayers subsidize Ukrainian corruption?


They should not OBVIOUSLY. Which is EXAXCTLY WHY our funding comes with conditions for reforms.





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				











						Corruption concerns involving Ukraine are revived as the war with Russia drags on
					

Since the start of the war with Russia, the Biden administration has mostly ignored Ukraine's corruption history. Questions resurfaced about its suitability as a recipient of massive infusions of aid.




					www.npr.org


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Where have I praised Putin’s war?



You claim to be an American but you constantly have a bag full excuses and deflection as a response to the criticism of Putin and his bloody invasion. You constantly peddle every fucking Russian propaganda talking point.

How to explain that?


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> "Donated protective military equipment and combat medical supplies have flooded Ukraine’s online marketplaces.
> 
> "Sellers are careful to hide their identities, often creating new vendor accounts for each sale and willing to fulfill orders exclusively by mail.
> 
> "'We have found armored helmets given as aid from the Americans for sale on websites,' Ivan said. 'You know, inside the helmet, the class of protection and brand are written. We saw this brand before and realized the helmets were the ones given to us as aid.'
> 
> "'Some of us tried to contact the sellers to set up a meeting, so we could prove they were selling stolen aid, but they were suspicious and stopped responding to us.”
> 
> "Ivan says he has heard about the theft of weapons donated from Western countries, but pointed out that *several soldiers in his unit are sharing a single AK-74.* 'I wouldn’t know about how they’re stealing the weapons, *because the weapons never reach the Ukrainian soldiers in the first place,...*'”



Some helmets went on sale somewhere and you think you have some sort of serious case that we should not aid Ukraine? OF COURSE someone, somewhere will scheme and try to make a buck on equipment they've recieved. Any thinking person understands that this is not serious evidence of widespread corruption. This laughable argument constantly circulates in Russian programming, thats what passes for a real story there.

Come back when a HIMARS goes for sale or you could put some serious numbers on excesses.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> They should not OBVIOUSLY. Which is EXAXCTLY WHY our funding comes with conditions for reforms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Corruption concerns involving Ukraine are revived as the war with Russia drags on
> 
> 
> Since the start of the war with Russia, the Biden administration has mostly ignored Ukraine's corruption history. Questions resurfaced about its suitability as a recipient of massive infusions of aid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


Yet none of those conditions are or will be met.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Yet none of those conditions are or will be met.



That's just your fantasy. Ukraine has come a long way.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> You claim to be an American but you constantly have a bag full excuses and deflection as a response to the criticism of Putin and his bloody invasion. You constantly peddle every fucking Russian propaganda talking point.
> 
> How to explain that?


It may surprise you to learn not all Americans support a warrior state and imperialist empire.

You’ve been duped. You ignore what happened before Putin invaded, so you only know he invaded.

This war should have have never happened. All the west had to do is recognize Russia’s interests and negotiated with them.  They chose war instead, but you’re blind to the truth.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> That's just your fantasy. Ukraine has come a long way.


Fuck Ukraine. It means nothing to me and what happens there is none of the USG’s business…if only logic prevailed.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> It may surprise you to learn not all Americans support a warrior state and imperialist empire.



Yep, I point out you post like a shill for Kremlin, you respond with something about America.

Constant deflection


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Fuck Ukraine. It means nothing to me


That's fine, you can go fuck yourself


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> That's fine, you can go fuck yourself


Same to you Uke.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, I point out you post like a shill for Kremlin, you respond with something about America.
> 
> Constant deflection


If only you understood English.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Do you fools have anything beside deflection and false equivalences?


Which country has killed, maimed, and displaced millions of innocent human beings on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland since 1945?


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> Which country has killed, maimed, and displaced millions of innocent human beings on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland since 1945?


He thinks the answer is Russia. Lmfao.


----------



## alexa

gipper said:


> It may surprise you to learn not all Americans support a warrior state and imperialist empire.
> 
> You’ve been duped. You ignore what happened before Putin invaded, so you only know he invaded.
> 
> This war should have have never happened. All the west had to do is recognize Russia’s interests and negotiated with them.  They chose war instead, but you’re blind to the truth.


That does seem to be the situation.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Which country has killed, maimed, and displaced millions of innocent human beings on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland since 1945?



What's your argument? 

America is supposedly bad, therefore Russia's bloody invasion into Ukraine and annexing their lands is fine?

It's a stupid, incoherent argument.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> ?


What exactly can't you get?


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> What exactly can't you get?


I can’t get how you can minimize the Nazi influence in your native land.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> I can’t get how you can minimize the Nazi influence in your native land.


'Can't get' seems to be your usual state of the mind.


----------



## Ringo

08.29.22
Today, Vladimir Zelensky killed many Ukrainians. He had a good day. His owners will be pleased, because he clearly and without any stupid reservations fulfills their order — to fight to the last Ukrainian. And today he got close enough to the goal, throwing his soldiers into a "counteroffensive" on the bare Novorossiysk steppe

Zelensky deliberately threw them into the meat grinder. Under the cover of a small amount of equipment, in an area where it is impossible to hide from direct artillery and air strikes.

And we expect the result — a large number of Ukrainian militants were left lying in the sun in the steppe. And their comrades-in-arms did not even begin to take the bodies of the dead.

Although, this senseless attempt at a "counteroffensive" can be explained in another way. It is quite possible that its meaning is an attempt to aggravate the situation in the south in order to disrupt the IAEA mission going to the NPP. This is also indicated by the completely brazen shelling of the station itself, which is becoming more and more targeted and fierce. Today, Ukrainians were deliberately hitting the nuclear fuel storage. This fuel itself is relatively safe, but if it gets into it, there will still be some kind of radiation release, and even a slight increase in the natural radiation background in the area of the Zaporozhye NPP will cause a huge worldwide hysteria now.

Or maybe the "counteroffensive" was originally planned as a strike on the information front, and the operation on the ground was only some cover for a large-scale offensive on social networks. But even in this case, the Ukrainian soldiers were simply thrown to the slaughter for the sake of an ephemeral goal — so that Zelensky's owners would see how he was trying there.

And Zelensky himself, under this pretext, will beg even more money and weapons from the owners.

But it seems that the owners are also not fools and perfectly understand where everything is going. And they supply just enough weapons so that the APU can support the pants, and money so that Ukrainians do not start starving before their time. They are just artificially prolonging the war, trying to exhaust Russia as much as possible. And Ukraine in this design is the same black sheep, with which at least a shred of wool.

But whatever the reasons, Zelensky committed another crime today — mass murder. The mad maniac made an abundant sacrifice to his masters. And Ukrainians will simply be told on TV how everything is going well and well, and street battles will soon begin in Sevastopol itself.

The fools believe it. And the fools, whose husbands, sons and brothers were killed by Vladimir Zelensky today. And it's quite possible that they won't even see their bodies.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again you acknowledge that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is indefensible by making false accusation against the US


Quote a "false accusation" I've posted against the US.




Victims of US military aggression


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> Quote a "false accusation" I've posted against the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Victims of US military aggression


Yes we have a horrendous history of war crimes and mass murder, yet many Americans know nothing of this.

The power of corporate media and government schooling to deceive shouldn’t be discounted.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> This memorandum was signed in 1994 when Russia was trying to join the civilized world, but all that changed once Putin came to power and now no treaties, agreements, understandings or pledges made by Russia


When Putin came to power he was not anti-Europe or anti-US; he even saw a potential for Russia to join NATO as an equal partner, 

What he got in return was 30 years of US arrogance and bullying in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and many more examples thousands of miles from the US homeland. 

It has been a bipartisan unipolar moment which has now thankfully passed.

Timeline of United States military operations - Wikipedia


----------



## toomuchtime_

Ringo said:


> "No matter what my German voters think.”  Nice! Democracy rules!


If only you were capable of telling the truth once in a while.

 The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”









						Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”
					

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...




					www.brookings.edu


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Russia's pledge was broken after the US helped instigate and fully supported a violent, illegal coup in 2014 that drove a duly elected president from office. This instance of meddling was simply among the latest in a long line of US provocations on Russian borders aimed at promoting regime change in Moscow.


Was there something in Russia's  pledge signed agreement about Ukraine's internal governing matters? *Nope, nothing.*

Ukraine lived up to their end of the bargain and eliminated their nuclear stock. Maybe they shouldn't have, because Russia annexed their land as soon as the moment became convenient.


----------



## Ringo

Glory to Ukraine!


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> Glory to Ukraine!



That's right, Russia starts a war and now can't sell that steel to EU. It's called economic consequences.

And BTW, do you know what "shut down of 1 of 2 furnaces" means? It's doesn't mean "idle steel plant"


----------



## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> That's right, Russia starts a war


"The head of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, defends the Monetary Policy Committee from criticism of how they handled inflation in England and in the United Kingdom:
- "The person who is going to plunge our economy into recession is Vladimir Putin"

It's convenient. And you can do without "international Jew."


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> "The head of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, defends the Monetary Policy Committee from criticism of how they handled inflation in England and in the United Kingdom:
> - "The person who is going to plunge our economy into recession is Vladimir Putin"
> 
> It's convenient. And you can do without "international Jew."



Yep, there goes Jew bashing.

Tell me again how you are not the Nazis.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> If you had a functioning brain, you would realize Russia's borders were never threatened, only Russia's imperialist ambitions were threatened by NATO.


A hostile military alliance that's arming and training far right forces responsible for the deaths of thousands of Russian speakers in Donbass when coupled with US sanctions constitutes a direct threat to Russia.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> A hostile military alliance that's arming and training far right forces responsible for the deaths of thousands of Russian speakers in Donbass when coupled with US sanctions constitutes a direct threat to Russia.


The statist warmongers think NATO is a fun loving strictly defensive force. Ignoring it’s murderous offensive actions in Serbia, Libya, and Syria…and it’s billions of dollars of offensive weapons and aggressive war gaming on Russia’s border.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> A hostile military alliance that's arming and training far right forces responsible for the deaths of thousands of Russian speakers in Donbass when coupled with US sanctions constitutes a direct threat to Russia.


It is a response to Putin's imperialist aggressions in Ukraine.  

NATO is not a hostile military alliance, it is merely hostile to Russian efforts to expand its empire westward.  

Russian speakers are not Russians, they are Ukrainians who speak Russian.  

Russian claims about what happened in Donbas are dubious at best, but what we do know is that Putin has slaughtered tens of thousands of Ukrainians, many of whom are Russianspeakers.


----------



## AntonToo

toomuchtime_ said:


> *Russian speakers are not Russians, they are Ukrainians who speak Russian. *



Useful Kremlin tools need to read that a few more times, so they they finally get that simple fact.

Someone speaking English or French or Spanish does not make them English or French or Spanish. Someone speaking Russian does not make them Russian.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> It is a response to Putin's imperialist aggressions in Ukraine.
> 
> NATO is not a hostile military alliance, it is merely hostile to Russian efforts to expand its empire westward.
> 
> Russian speakers are not Russians, they are Ukrainians who speak Russian.
> 
> Russian claims about what happened in Donbas are dubious at best, but what we do know is that Putin has slaughtered tens of thousands of Ukrainians, many of whom are Russianspeakers.


Lol


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Useful Kremlin tools need to read that a few more times, so they they finally get that simple fact.
> 
> Someone speaking English or French or Spanish does not make them English or French or Spanish. Someone speaking Russian does not make them Russian.


Lol. Dumb as usual!


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Lol. Dumb as usual!


No, these guys try to fill your hollow mind with some basic information, but of course you fail to proceed that.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> No, these guys try to fill your hollow mind with some basic information, but of course you fail to proceed that.


Everything you know is wrong. You’re a Ukrainian national. Maybe a Nazi. No one with a brain would believe a word you say.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Everything you know is wrong. You’re a Ukrainian national. Maybe a Nazi. No one with a brain would believe a word you say.



Dude, you just made my day. Some old buffer are trying to teach me about the land where I live and tells me that I am wrong. Oh, shit. You are even funnier than the Russians are. Haven't you thought about moving there? You will perfectly fit.

To talk about people with a brain, one should at least have one. Thanks for the laugh, anyway.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Dude, you just made my day. Some old buffer are trying to teach me about the land where I live and tells me that I am wrong. Oh, shit. You are even funnier than the Russians are. Haven't you thought about moving there? You will perfectly fit.
> 
> To talk about people with a brain, one should at least have one. Thanks for the laugh, anyway.


I’m so glad I could be helpful.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Everything you know is wrong.


Why would you say something so silly and naive? 

Oh yea thats right, because you have intelectual development of a 5 year old.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> If France and Germany had allowed Ukraine to join NATO, Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine, but their attempts to appease Putin and secure cheap energy from Russia emboldened Putin to attempt to take over Ukraine.
> 
> Russia violates its own agreements to start a war and to your sick twisted mind anyone who opposes it is a war whore.  Could you possibly be more ridiculous!


Ukraine would have been ground zero for WWIII if France and Germany had not prevented that particular instance of American arrogance from taking place.

Which country is responsible for millions of innocent civilian deaths since 1945, the US or Russia?


----------



## alexa

Ringo said:


> "The head of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, defends the Monetary Policy Committee from criticism of how they handled inflation in England and in the United Kingdom:
> - "The person who is going to plunge our economy into recession is Vladimir Putin"
> 
> It's convenient. And you can do without "international Jew."


Knowing that we were going to have the massive rise in prices, a few months ago he was trying to get people to agree not to try and get a pay rise to pay for it....and I don't think for us it is Putin.  Seems more like bad economic management by the Tories these past twelve years as well as covid and Brexit of course.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Ukraine would have been ground zero for WWIII if France and Germany had not prevented that particular instance of American arrogance from taking place.
> 
> Which country is responsible for millions of innocent civilian deaths since 1945, the US or Russia?


More crazy talk from you.  Putin is not a very bright guy, but he clearly is smart enough to avoid even the appearance of a threat against a NATO member.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> More crazy talk from you.  Putin is not a very bright guy, but he clearly is smart enough to avoid even the appearance of a threat against a NATO member.


So if Putin makes a threat against a NATO member, what do think NATO will do?


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> So if Putin makes a threat against a NATO member, what do think NATO will do?


It's not about making threats asshole, but if he were to attack a NATO member, Russia would be humiliated even worse than it is now in Ukraine.


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> Maybe in your imagination. These guarantees were given to Ukraine as a sovereign state. These guarantees still stands.


When Ukraine became a US proxy in pursuit of regime change in Russia, it became a hostile threat and all guarantees vanished.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> It's not about making threats asshole, but if he were to attack a NATO member, Russia would be humiliated even worse than it is now in Ukraine.


You’re the one that mentioned threats by Putin. Did you forget?


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> When Ukraine became a US proxy in pursuit of regime change in Russia, it became a hostile threat and all guarantees vanished.


Why do you post such rubbish when you know it is not true?  Are you trying to sound stupid or trying to persuade the world that nothing Russia says can be trusted?  If so you are successful on both counts.  The guarantees in the Budapest Memorandum were made in exchange for persuading Ukraine give its nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at that time, to Russia in exchange for guarantees of sovereignty.  There were no caveats about NATO or the EU or about any internal strife within Ukraine.  If the US had not foolishly persuaded Ukraine to trust Russia, Ukraine would have kept its nuclear missiles and would have needed no help in deterring Russian aggression.  The whole world would have been better if Ukraine had kept its nuclear missiles, so this is an instance of US meddling that led to a bad result.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.


I can't justify something that isn't happening.
Putin is defending his western border against a hostile military alliance just as he he promised he would over the past twenty years. As long as the US continues to press for regime change in Moscow (as it's been doing since 1949), Russia will continue to defend its homeland.

United States Interventions


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> The statist loving warmonger knows nothing about this and doesn’t want to know.


They think they're the "good guys."




United States war crimes - Wikipedia


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> I can't justify something that isn't happening.
> Putin is defending his western border against a hostile military alliance just as he he promised he would over the past twenty years. As long as the US continues to press for regime change in Moscow (as it's been doing since 1949), Russia will continue to defend its homeland.
> 
> United States Interventions


You know very well none of that is true and you know no one else thinks it's true, so the  fact that you continue to post such nonsense can lead to only to the conclusion that you have no  real interest in what is going on in Ukraine.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> When Ukraine became a US proxy in pursuit of regime change in Russia, it became a hostile threat and all guarantees vanished.


 Guarantees from Russia you mean? They meant nothing in any case. If you weren't that ignorant and read some memories of Russian politicians (including Yeltsin, btw), you would know that Russian elite never really considered Ukraine as a separate entity.

That is not about what Russia or the likes of you think. Anti-Russian military union is an inevitable thing in this part of the world. Read some fucking history. Read about Russia-Polish wars. That all came along long before NATO or even the US had come to existence. 

You along with other pro-Russian American loons operate in 50 years time frame. History of Europe didn't start with creation of NATO, you clueless twat.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.


Try to learn something today. Start with the following…

_*Of course, NATO says that it is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Guarantees from Russia you mean? They meant nothing in any case. If you weren't that ignorant and read some memories of Russian politicians (including Yeltsin, btw), you would know that Russian elite never really considered Ukraine as a separate entity.
> 
> That is not about what Russia or the likes of you think. Anti-Russian military union is an inevitable thing in this part of the world. Read some fucking history. Read about Russia-Polish wars. That all came along long before NATO or even the US had come to existence.
> 
> You along with other pro-Russian American loons operate in 50 years time frame. History of Europe didn't start with creation of NATO, you clueless twat.


Yet you think the USSR still lives.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> So once again you find it impossible to justify Putin's efforts to expand the Russian empire westward and try to change the subject to what you imagine the US has done.


Learn please. I hate ignorance on purpose…
_The mainstream media do not present the war as it is, but as they would like it to be. This is pure wishful thinking. *The apparent public support for the Ukrainian authorities, despite huge losses (some mention 70,000-80,000 fatalities), is achieved by banning the opposition, a ruthless hunt for officials who disagree with the government line, and “mirror” propaganda that attributes to the Russians the same failures as the Ukrainians. All this with the conscious support of the West.*
Our latest interview with Jacques Baud | MR Online_


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Yet you think the USSR still lives.


No, I think you are clueless and your ignorance is so deep that you are a waste of time.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> No, I think you are clueless and your ignorance is so deep that you are a waste of time.


Wow. Very touchy this morning Uke.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Wow. Very touchy this morning Uke.


Why? Just stating a fact.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> There is no evidence Ukranians would not rise up against Yankovych's gov without Americans. It's just a bs Russian talking point.


There's amble evidence of US meddling in the internal affairs of another sovereign state:

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

"It was a grotesque distortion to portray the events in Ukraine as a purely indigenous, popular uprising. 

"The Nuland‐Pyatt telephone conversation and other actions confirm that the United States was considerably more than a passive observer to the turbulence. 

"Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine. 

"Such conduct was utterly improper. 

"The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power. 

"It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro‐Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance."


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> There's amble evidence of US meddling in the internal affairs of another sovereign state:
> 
> https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy
> 
> "It was a grotesque distortion to portray the events in Ukraine as a purely indigenous, popular uprising.
> 
> "The Nuland‐Pyatt telephone conversation and other actions confirm that the United States was considerably more than a passive observer to the turbulence.
> 
> "Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine.
> 
> "Such conduct was utterly improper.
> 
> "The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power.
> 
> "It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro‐Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance."



Yep, we we support pro-democratic movements in many countries. We told them that we will recognize their newly government and not halt aid. What we DIDN'T do is fight their battle for them, they did that and they are doing it today against a bloody Russian invasion.

Russia goes *FAR BEYOND* what we do, esp in former USSR states like Ukraine and Belarus. They prop up pro-Russia parties and routinely bribe and subvert officials there to try to maintain their sphere of influence against pro-western popular sentiment.

Russia invading and annexing Ukrainian land is not some sort of counter "meddling", thats straight up fascist take over in it's own category.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> As always, you are full of shit.  Yanukovych tried to outlaw protests and when that failed he sent special police squads out to break up the protests by force.  The police killed 118 protesters and in the process 13 cops were killed.  It was only after that event that the protesters came armed.  The overwhelming majority of the public and the parliament favored signing the agreement with the EU and Yanukovych ignored them and tried to prevent the people from protesting.
> 
> Why did he flee?  Because he called on Russia to invade Ukraine and restore him to power.


*Why don't you provide some evidence for your claims regarding which side fired the first shots?*

A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?

"According to a recently published BBC investigation, some Maidan protestors were armed, and they in fact started shooting at the police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street"

*Maidan protestors were shot at from buildings controlled by protestors:*

The Maidan massacre in Ukraine: revelations from trials and investigations | MR Online

"My study analyzed several hundred hours of video recordings of the Maidan massacre trial, which is streamed on YouTube.

"Videos presented at the trial confirmed my previous study findings, which showed that specific times of shooting of the absolute majority of the protesters did not coincide with times of shooting by the Berkut and the directions of their shooting. 

"This visual evidence alone shows that the Berkut did not massacre at least the absolute majority of killed and wounded Maidan protesters. 

"Synchronized and time-stamped videos confirmed that at least three protesters were killed before the special Berkut police unit, which is charged with their massacre, was even deployed in the Maidan."


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> NATO should exist as a guarantor of security in Europe. If we are talking about external threat, then in the 20th century it was the USSR, now it is Russia.


How many times did Russia invade Europe in the 20th century?
How many times was Russia invaded by Europeans in the 20th century?
How many time did Russia invade the US in the 20th century?


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> How many times did Russia invade Europe in the 20th century?


Ukraine (newly former UNR and Ukrainian State) in 1918-1919.
Poland, twice (1920, 1939)
The Baltics 1939
Finland  1939
Hungary (suppression of Hungarian revolution in 1956)
Czechoslovakia (suppression of the Prague Spring in 1968).




georgephillip said:


> How many times was Russia invaded by Europeans in the 20th century?


The Russian civil war and WWII.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Try to learn something today. Start with the following…
> 
> _*Of course, NATO says that it is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria*; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
> The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China_


There you go again trying to change the subject from Russia's horrific actions to imagined US actions.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Learn please. I hate ignorance on purpose…
> _The mainstream media do not present the war as it is, but as they would like it to be. This is pure wishful thinking. *The apparent public support for the Ukrainian authorities, despite huge losses (some mention 70,000-80,000 fatalities), is achieved by banning the opposition, a ruthless hunt for officials who disagree with the government line, and “mirror” propaganda that attributes to the Russians the same failures as the Ukrainians. All this with the conscious support of the West.*
> Our latest interview with Jacques Baud | MR Online_


All irrelevant.  The issue is Russia's imperialist war in Ukraine.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> There you go again trying to change the subject from Russia's horrific actions to imagined US actions.


Imagined???  Yeah the USG had nothing to do with wars in Syria, Afghanistan, or Libya.  

Are you fucking CRAZY???


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> All irrelevant.  The issue is Russia's imperialist war in Ukraine.


But the US never committed one imperialist war EVER.  



Thinks a fool.


You are terribly confused. Russia‘s war is defensive. US wars are imperialist wars.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> But the US never committed one imperialist war EVER.


Yep, more deflection. Surprise!

America supposedly bad, therefore Russia's invasion good.

It's all these morons have.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Imagined???  Yeah the USG had nothing to do with wars in Syria, Afghanistan, or Libya.
> 
> Are you fucking CRAZY???


The subject here is Russia's horrific invasion of Ukraine; stop trying to change the subject.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> It's ok for Russia to invade other countries and take their land because US meddles.
> 
> Did I capture your elegant argument correctly?


It's OK for Russia to invade the proxy state of a hostile military alliance in order to defend innocent civilians from terror attacks:





Good morning Donetsk…! | MR Online

"On the way, we do journalistic work. 

"We talk to regular people, almost never to officials. 

"They tell us that they have often been able to survive because Russian soldiers and militiamen share their food and water rations with them. 

"This single fact alone, repeated, marks a remarkable difference with the behavior of the Nazi battalions and Ukrainian troops.

"There is gratitude, but also sorrow. 

"They have lost a lot, and they have an urgency to rebuild their lives. 

"The question that keeps repeating itself more and more is, *'Why doesn’t Russia just get it over with?'"*


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Your argument is the US is perfectly right to invade nations thousands of miles from home, but Russia better not do the same to a nation on it’s border.
> 
> Plus the US has every right to provide massive amounts of military hardware to the invaded nation so that thousands will die in it’s proxy war, but war profiteers will get fabulously rich.


Imagine a global "death tax" that confiscated all of the war profiteers' wealth derived from the deaths, maiming, and displacement of millions of refugees?

2022 Ukrainian refugee crisis - Wikipedia.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> It's OK for Russia to invade the proxy state


*Horseshit*

Ukraine is no one's proxy. They are their own country, they have their internationally recognized borders and *they* chose their own future, not Americans or Russians.

Tools like you need to learn that and stop excusing this imperialistic land grab.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> The subject here is Russia's horrific invasion of Ukraine; stop trying to change the subject.


Yeah pointing out your hypocrisy is something you don’t like, so you refuse to discuss it.

You’re not really this stupid right?


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> You want to discuss specific wars US started, some of which I and many others opposed form day 1? Wars that Americans have come to understand were mistakes? Sure, go make a thread.* Nothing about that excuses Russian invasion* and annexation of Ukranian land that THIS thread is about


Are you capable of seeing how US meddling comes in multiple forms?
When contesting against foes incapable of striking back at the US homeland, direct military actions are employed; however, when an "enemy" has the ability to strike back at the source of US terror, the meddling takes the form we saw in Ukraine in 2014. This doesn't alter the underlying reality: US meddling/terrorism is responsible for millions of innocent deaths since 1945, and Ukraine is the most recent example.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, more deflection. Surprise!
> 
> America supposedly bad, therefore Russia's invasion good.
> 
> It's all these morons have.


No…no…no!  I’m pointing out your hypocrisy. You support the imperialist inventions by the USG, but not by Russia.

Of course as I’ve schooled you numerous times, Russia is defending it’s interests by invading Ukraine.  It’s not committing imperialism as the USG has done many times.

 I don’t ever condone war, but clearly only a fool wouldn’t understand Russia’s position. They warned the West for two decades.

You must admit you can’t be objective. You’ve made your opinion clear. You hate Russia.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Yeah pointing out your hypocrisy is something you don’t like, so you refuse to discuss it.
> 
> You’re not really this stupid right?


This thread is about the Russian invasion of Ukraine - why do you keep running away from it?


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> This thread is about the Russian invasion of Ukraine - why do you keep running away from it?


I’m not. You’re trying run from your hypocrisy. Just suck it up.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> I’m not. You’re trying run from your hypocrisy. Just suck up.


Sure you are.  Whatever you imagine the US may have done, it is irrelevant to what Russia is doing in Ukraine.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Sure you are.  Whatever you imagine the US may have done, it is irrelevant to what Russia is doing in Ukraine.


We know what the US has done. Well maybe you don’t. Not my fault.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> We know what the US has done. Well maybe you don’t. Not my fault.


Still trying to change the subject from Russia's invasion of Ukraine?  Why don't you start a new thread about what you imagine he US may have done?


----------



## Gregory A

JoeB131 said:


> I think you are babbling here, buddy.
> 
> The thing is, Russia did have VALID disputes with Ukraine about the Donbass, Crimea, Tariffs on gas supplies, and NATO membership.
> 
> But invading was completely unjustified.
> 
> Putin's hope was to quickly topple the Zelensky government and set terms on these issues.
> 
> Instead, he's gotten bogged down in a war with no end in sight.


Wrong too. The battle is between two monsters, Putin on the Right, Nato countries representing the Left. It is the "white male" factor driving this resentment of Russia's leader.


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> No thanks. There is a good Russian saying: Duraka uchit' - tolko portit'. (Something like, educating of a fool only spoils him).


----------



## Redfish

alexa said:


> This is just nonsense and could not be further from the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What percentage of Ukrainians want to join Russia?
> 
> 
> Answer (1 of 28): Most are undecided (Ukraine has been a bad place to live in, but there’s so much propaganda about Russia). Some are pro Russia, some are pro Western. Most just want a better life. Historically Ukrainians have been pro Russian (brotherly peoples and shared history) and the consta...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.quora.com


your cite proves my point, thanks


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> *Horseshit*
> 
> Ukraine is no one's proxy. They are their own country, they have their internationally recognized borders and *they* chose their own future, not Americans or Russians.
> 
> Tools like you need to learn that and stop excusing this imperialistic land grab.


Ukraine was/is one of the most corrupt countries on earth.   Putin's invasion will stop Ukrainian payments to US politician families (Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, Romney) and that is why the US is sending them billions of our tax dollars----------to keep the bribes flowing to those 4 families.  Wake the fuck up and see what this is really about.


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> Ukraine was/is one of the most corrupt countries on earth


Bullshit.

It ranks 122/180, thats bellow average but certainly not one of the most corrupt.









						2021 Corruption Perceptions Index - Explore Ukraine’s results
					

How does Ukraine measure up in the 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index?




					www.transparency.org
				




You can also note significant improvement since 2014.


----------



## georgephillip

alexa said:


> whose special forces?  What are they up to?
> 
> I have found it.  They are US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US Special Forces are Quietly Sent to Ukraine
> 
> 
> The U.S. Army’s Special Forces, better known as Green Berets, have had a deep impact on Ukraine’s fight to defend itself from a Russian invasion, despite not being directly involved in …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whatsuptoday.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would I be right in assuming that the US is now formally at war with Russia?


I would think Russians in Mexico operating similarly would qualify as an act of war?

Your link:

"Those skills have been put to use in Ukraine since 2014, with Green Berets and members of the Army’s National Guard advising and training Ukrainian forces at Yavoriv Combat Training Center in western Ukraine.

"It’s the same facility Russia attacked with rockets on March 13, killing 35. 

"The Americans had already left,  vacating the facility and moving troops deployed there to Germany in February. 

"Part of the job Green Berets did at Yavoriv was to train their Ukrainian counterparts to set up militia units that could wage guerrilla warfare against an invading force."


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> They can’t see their blatant hypocrisy.
> 
> Proof the establishment can easily dupe many.


I think many who have experienced systems of overt coercion fail to recognize how self-censorship defines acceptable limits of debate in this country:

Manufacturing Consent - Wikipedia

_*"Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media*_ is a 1988 book by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky. It argues that the mass communication media of the U.S. 'are effective and powerful ideological institutions that carry out a system-supportive propaganda function, by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without overt coercion', by means of the propaganda model of communication.[1]"

I also suspect many who claim they came here for the "freedom" are only here for the money, and they couldn't care less how many innocent human beings on the opposite side of the planet have to die or suffer displacement to sustain America's permanent war-time economy.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Compared to Russia our society and governing is free, fair and open.


How do US incarceration rates compare with Russian?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=State%20and%20federal%20prison%20and,percent%20of%20the%20world's%20prisoners.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> How do US incarceration rates compare with Russian?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=State%20and%20federal%20prison%20and,percent%20of%20the%20world's%20prisoners.


Joe Biden had a lot do with that.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> You post this after Russian army embarased itself internationally and got it's back broken trying to take Kiev?


Russian's never tried to take Kiev unless you believe 40,000 Russian troops were
capable of conquering a city of 3,000,000 people and defended by 60,000 armed troops..

One moment, please...

"Numerous military analysts, including former United Nations weapons inspector Scott Ritter, disagreed with the mainstream narrative of ‘the battle for Kyiv.’

"They argued that Russia’s advance on Kyiv was not a genuine attempt to take the city, but a 'feint' designed to tie Ukrainian forces down in and around Ukraine’s capital while other Russian forces ‘shaped the battlefield’ in the Donbas—the Russian military’s principal objective.

"Among other things, Ritter pointed out that the Russian columns that had advanced on Kyiv consisted of some 40,000 troops, and that no one with half of a military brain would attempt with so few soldiers to conquer a city of three million people defended by 60,000 Ukrainian troops.

"According to Ritter,* 'the so-called ‘battle for Kyiv’ is a clear-cut example of the difference between perception and reality.'"*


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Russian's never tried to take Kiev unless you believe 40,000 Russian troops were
> capable of conquering a city of 3,000,000 people and defended by 60,000 armed troops..
> 
> The US Special Forces are Quietly Sent to Ukraine
> 
> "Numerous military analysts, including former United Nations weapons inspector Scott Ritter, disagreed with the mainstream narrative of ‘the battle for Kyiv.’
> 
> "They argued that Russia’s advance on Kyiv was not a genuine attempt to take the city, but a 'feint' designed to tie Ukrainian forces down in and around Ukraine’s capital while other Russian forces ‘shaped the battlefield’ in the Donbas—the Russian military’s principal objective.



Russian advance on Kiev was a total MEAT GRINDER. Russians (illigaly) sent in police units to keep civilians on order after take over, who the fuck does that for a fake? But  no matter what their goals where, it cost them thousands of soldiers in bodybags, elite paratroopers included.

By all accounts it was a total clusterfuck and embarrassment.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Russian advance on Kiev was a total MEAT GRINDER. Russians (illigaly) sent in police units to keep civilians on order after take over, who the fuck does that for a fake? But  no matter what their goals where, it cost them thousands of soldiers in bodybags, elite paratroopers included.
> 
> By all accounts it was a total clusterfuck and embarrassment.


Its hard to know if that is true. The western media has lied and misrepresented this war, they are untrustworthy.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Its hard to know if that is true. The western media has lied and misrepresented this war, they are untrustworthy.



Western media has NOTHING to with it. I'm going off local video feed and testinomy of Russian police officers and soldiers that were captured.

This is just a small example of all the stuff you have no idea about.


Russian goals were not to take Kiev through conventional warfare, they were looking to decapitate Zelenskiy's gov. The blitz was to create a safe passage for elite squads tasked with it. They failed.









						Chechen hit squad sent to murder Zelenskyy 'eliminated,' top Ukrainian defense official says
					

A team of elite commandos sent to assassinate President Volodymyr Zelenskyy was "eliminated" by security forces, a top defense official said.




					www.fox5atlanta.com


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Western media has NOTHING to with it. I'm going off local video feed and testinomy of Russian police officers and soldiers that were captured.
> 
> This is just a small example of all the stuff you have no idea about.
> 
> 
> Russian goals were not to take Kiev through conventional warfare, they were looking to decapitate Zelenskiy's gov. The blitz was to create a safe passage for elite squads tasked with it. They failed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chechen hit squad sent to murder Zelenskyy 'eliminated,' top Ukrainian defense official says
> 
> 
> A team of elite commandos sent to assassinate President Volodymyr Zelenskyy was "eliminated" by security forces, a top defense official said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox5atlanta.com


The western media lies. So, they have a lot to do with it.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> The western media lies. So, they have a lot to do with it.


Russian police captain is "western media"?

Your comments are straight silly.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Russian advance on Kiev was a total MEAT GRINDER. Russians (illigaly) sent in police units to keep civilians on order after take over, who the fuck does that for a fake? But  no matter what their goals where, it cost them thousands of soldiers in bodybags, elite paratroopers included.
> 
> By all accounts it was a total clusterfuck and embarrassment.


How do you capture a city of 3 million defended by 60,000 military professionals with an invasion force of 40,000?

One moment, please...

"Larry C. Johnson, a veteran of the CIA and the State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism, argued that Russian forces had reached the outskirts of the capital with extraordinary speed and that, within the *first day of the conflict, Russian forces wiped out all Ukrainian Ground Radar Intercept capabilities and thereby deprived the Ukrainian Air Force of its ability to do air to air intercept.*

"Five weeks after Russia launched its invasion, Lt. Gen Prakash Katoch, a retired special forces officer from the Indian military, authored an article entitled 'America’s Information War is Self-Delusional.' 

"In it, Katoch argued that Russia was winning the war decisively. '*The West doesn’t need state media,' he wrote, 'it has corporations that own both the state and the media;* much more potent and dangerous who together are blowing Biden’s trumpet.'"


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> I wonder why the comments of the Mexican president Andrés Manuel López Obrador wasn’t reported in mainstream western news outlets, when he said to the Ukrainians, “We provide the weapons, you provide the corpses!”


For many of the same reason$ Biden's call for "regime change" in Russia was never seriously acknowledged here?

"Biden’s remark of 'regime change' in Moscow has now been attributed to a faux pas by the White House. 

"But Biden has publicly called Russian President Vladimir Putin a 'butcher' and said he cannot stay in power. 

"Biden said so during a meeting with refugees who have fled Ukraine to the Polish capital, and called the fight against Putin a 'new battle for freedom'. 

"This is quite amusing considering Biden has converted democratic America to a Global Autocracy."  

Read more at:
America’s Information War is Self Delusional - Indian Defence Review


----------



## Ringo

Humanity in its history has led, is leading now, and will lead many wars more than once.
It would be very close to the truth to say that all wars can be conditionally divided into four categories:

— wars between separate independent states;
— wars between coalitions of states or wars of a coalition of states against one state;
— suppression of rebellions and uprisings in the rebellious part (or parts) in one state;
— civil wars;
A distinctive feature of the Russian special military operation in Ukraine is the fact that it combines all types of wars.

In the history of mankind, everything would be too simple if the fact of the existence of an independent sovereign State were based only on its international recognition and the establishment of borders by fixing them in the relevant treaties.

In reality, things are much more complicated.
The borders of states and their very existence are determined only by success or not success in war.

It is based on its results that borders are determined, dividing lines are drawn and habitats of peoples and nations are marked.
The results of wars are not always, or rather, almost never, absolutely fair and satisfying to all parties to conflicts. As a rule, this serves as a reason for the continuation of armed clashes in the future, and the peace interval can be determined both for years and decades, and for whole centuries.

If in this case it is possible to talk about any compromises, then only in cases when the winner shows humanity and gentleness to the defeated opponent. Unfortunately, there are very few such examples.

They do not exist at all in the history of imperialism and colonial conquests. The defeated peoples are either destroyed or enslaved. And there is no third way. The West never compromises if it wins.

Currently, Russia is forced to wage war with a coalition of Western neocolonial states on the territory of Ukraine.
Legally, the latter seems to be an "independent state", but in reality it is a disenfranchised satellite of the West, whose sole purpose is the role of an instrument for defeating Russia, even at the cost of the death of not only this entire state, but also the complete physical destruction of Ukrainian citizens.
There is no doubt that the conflict unleashed by the West in Ukraine is its temporary victory, which makes Western elites squeal with delight, literally and figuratively.

In order for Russia to win over the West in this battle, it is necessary to realize exactly with whom and for what it is fighting. It is especially important to understand how to treat the territory called Ukraine, and what kind of policy should be pursued with respect to its citizens, because they are one people with the citizens of Russia.
Simply put, it is necessary to determine which type of war is prevailing here and, depending on this, choose a strategy and methods of warfare.

Unfortunately, in domestic politics, seven months after the start of the SVO, no definite conclusions have been made in this regard. At least, nothing is known about this to the general public.
Thus, the conduct of war is actually reduced only to the actual conduct of hostilities. But this is only the visible part of the iceberg.

Let's digress a little. At the beginning of 1970, near the Russian city of Irkutsk, twin brothers were born in the family of a military pilot. Both also became military. Only one graduated in 1992 from the Higher Military Aviation School in Kharkov, and the second graduated from the Ryazan Higher Airborne Command School.

Now both hold considerable positions in the headquarters of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. After the coup d'etat in Kiev in 2014, in 2016, the brothers stopped talking to each other. And they did it peacefully, at the request of the brother who serves in the Ukrainian army. He motivated such a move by the fact that he could be in "big trouble" if these ties are maintained.
There are at least several tens of millions of people living in Russia who either have relatives in Ukraine or have Ukrainian roots. Many of these people are now taking part in a special military operation. Truly, Russians and Ukrainians are one people.

But then the military conflict on Ukrainian territory has every reason to be called a civil war, right? Or, at least, perhaps such a question should be asked? For unknown reasons, while this factor is being considered, it is not enough.
As historical experience proves, including the very bloody domestic one, without a clear and understandable policy towards the enemy in the civil war, it is impossible to achieve victory in it.

It should be clearly understood that the population of Ukraine is a reprogrammed Russians
 Russians are killing Russians, like some gladiators in an ancient Roman circus, which now allows the West to fervently satisfy itself by watching Russians kill Russians.
And Russia, instead of finding ways and methods to break this vicious bloody circle, to find a way to the hearts and minds of the citizens of Ukraine lost in the streams of Western lies, in its agitation and propaganda focuses on the destruction of Nazi militants. But this is not a struggle with the cause, but with the effect.

Yes, the citizens of Ukraine are reprogrammed Russians. And therefore, in the war they behave accordingly, only with the opposite sign.
If the Ukrainian conflict has the features of a civil war, then the approaches to its solution should be appropriate.

In particular, so far critically little has been done to make Kiev propaganda impossible on the territory of Ukraine. Equally critically little has been done regarding the effectiveness of the impact and spread of the sphere of influence of the Russian media.

A real terror reigns on the territory of Ukraine, and not only physical, but also informational, too. If it is impossible to provide the Ukrainian population with access to sources in the Russian media, then what is the point of letting the Ukrainian ones work?
Moreover, the very Russian concept of the current policy in this direction raises huge doubts.

For example, does it make any sense to call on Ukrainian servicemen to surrender in order only to save their lives, without saying anything about the fact that they are deceived and fighting for the interests of the West, their bloody ghouls-oligarchs and their common puppet Zelensky?

Yes, the citizens of Ukraine are reprogrammed Russians.

They are waging a civil war against their brothers without realizing it. And Russia, instead of stepping up all efforts to, as they would have said 100 years ago, "propagandize" them, so far prefers to act sluggishly, indecisively and simply irrationally on this front.

Yes, the citizens of Ukraine are reprogrammed Russians. And they should be treated as Russians.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> How do you capture a city of 3 million defended by 60,000 military professionals with an invasion force of 40,000?
> 
> One moment, please...
> 
> "Larry C. Johnson, a veteran of the CIA and the State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism, argued that Russian forces had reached the outskirts of the capital with extraordinary speed and that, within the *first day of the conflict, Russian forces wiped out all Ukrainian Ground Radar Intercept capabilities and thereby deprived the Ukrainian Air Force of its ability to do air to air intercept.*
> 
> "Five weeks after Russia launched its invasion, Lt. Gen Prakash Katoch, a retired special forces officer from the Indian military, authored an article entitled 'America’s Information War is Self-Delusional.'
> 
> "In it, Katoch argued that Russia was winning the war decisively. '*The West doesn’t need state media,' he wrote, 'it has corporations that own both the state and the media;* much more potent and dangerous who together are blowing Biden’s trumpet.'"



You decapitate government and have military fold.

See Afghanistan. They had way more soldiers and hardware than Taliban, but because their leadership was chicken shit and they didn't believe in their country, Taliban rolled them over.

Putin was clearly misinformed about Ukraine, their belief in their state and the resolve of their leadership.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> How do US incarceration rates compare with Russian?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=State%20and%20federal%20prison%20and,percent%20of%20the%20world's%20prisoners.



Moron just because our justice system sends people to jail for law breaking, does not mean we don't have freedom of speech and fair political process.

How desparate do you have to be to even suggest that bullshit?


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> How do you capture a city of 3 million defended by 60,000 military professionals with an invasion force of 40,000?
> 
> One moment, please...
> 
> "Larry C. Johnson, a veteran of the CIA and the State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism, argued that Russian forces had reached the outskirts of the capital with extraordinary speed and that, within the *first day of the conflict, Russian forces wiped out all Ukrainian Ground Radar Intercept capabilities and thereby deprived the Ukrainian Air Force of its ability to do air to air intercept.*
> 
> "Five weeks after Russia launched its invasion, Lt. Gen Prakash Katoch, a retired special forces officer from the Indian military, authored an article entitled 'America’s Information War is Self-Delusional.'
> 
> "In it, Katoch argued that Russia was winning the war decisively. '*The West doesn’t need state media,' he wrote, 'it has corporations that own both the state and the media;* much more potent and dangerous who together are blowing Biden’s trumpet.'"


Interesting column by Lt Gen Prakash Katoch.  He makes a few statements here that most Americans know nothing about, thanks to their corrupt media and government. 


_*given that the US record of butchery around the world over the last decades is well documented. In Serbia alone, the US-NATO dropped 15 tons of depleted uranium bombs which catapulted Serbia to number one in cancer patients in Europe, which is why despite a population of 84.6 percent Orthodox Christians Serbia vowed not to join NATO. *

Earlier, Ritter had exposed the *13 Pentagon-funded bio-labs in Ukraine plus the CIA and MI6 training neo-Nazis in Azov. Interestingly, on March 12 when Spitter revealed the bio-labs, a bot with over 2,72,546 edits attacked it in 24 hours *from the same IP.

But the truth can hardly be hidden. The 2005 agreement between the US Department of Defence and Ukraine’s Ministry of Health came to light with *US-funded bio-labs developing and storing dangerous pathogens in multiple centralized bio-labs in Ukraine. *This was followed by another revelation that the Pentagon has been funding bio-labs in 25 countries for similarly developing and storing dangerous pathogens. 

*The US and UK did carryout a false flag chemical attack not only in Syria but many countries. William Blum, US historian who has worked in the US State Department, has been quoted in these columns earlier who wrote, “Since 1945, the US has tried to overthrow more than 50 governments, many of them democratically elected; grossly interfered in 30 countries; bombed the civilian population of 30 countries; interfered in elections in 30 countries; used chemical and biological weapons; and attempted t .. *

Read more at:_
America’s Information War is Self Delusional - Indian Defence Review


----------



## Redfish

AntonToo said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> It ranks 122/180, thats bellow average but certainly not one of the most corrupt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index - Explore Ukraine’s results
> 
> 
> How does Ukraine measure up in the 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.transparency.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can also note significant improvement since 2014.


Is it corrupt when the kids of US politicians are being paid obscene amounts of money to hold fake seats on a Ukrainian gas company?   Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, and Romney,  look it up.  or is bribery not corruption in your small mind?


----------



## Ringo

Redfish said:


> Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, and Romney,  look it up.  or is bribery not corruption in your small mind?


A former piano player with his penis, and now the president of Ukraine has more than a billion in his foreign accounts. All this money, of course, is earned by honest work on the piano.


----------



## AntonToo

Redfish said:


> Is it corrupt when the kids of US politicians are being paid obscene amounts of money to hold fake seats on a Ukrainian gas company?   Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, and Romney,  look it up.  or is bribery not corruption in your small mind?


Pure stupidity.

Even without questioning your baselss accusations, Ukranian companies supposedly paying off American politicians would indicate AMERICAN corruption, not Ukranian.


----------



## Ringo

AntonToo said:


> Ukranian companies supposedly paying off American politicians would indicate AMERICAN corruption, not Ukranian.


So why do they arrest men who pay prostitutes in the US?


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> So why do they arrest men who pay prostitutes in the US?



Because solicitation of prostitution is illegal in most states. DUH?


----------



## georgephillip

Redfish said:


> e have polls here in the US that say that around 30% of americans support Biden when we all know that the reality is that only about 10% of left wing zealots support him and even many on the far left are leaving him.


Can you provide an example of any "left wing zealot" who has ever supported Biden?

Biden promises wealthy donors he would not 'demonize' the rich

"Former Vice President Joe Biden told a room of affluent New York donors on Tuesday night that he doesn’t think it’s appropriate to 'demonize' the rich.

"'You know, what I’ve found is rich people are just as patriotic as poor people. Not a joke. I mean, we may not want to demonize anybody who has made money,' Biden told about 100 donors at the Carlyle Hotel on the Upper East Side, multiple media outlets reported."

"'We can disagree in the margins, but the truth of the matter is it’s all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No one’s standard of living will change,' he continued, addressing a well-heeled group, including former Clinton Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, former Deputy Treasury Secretary Roger Altman, and Goldman Sachs Chief Financial Officer Stephen Scherr, according to reports."

Left wing zealots understand the rich are the problem; Biden doesn't.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> As you say, this is being done by some states that belong to NATO but not by  NATO.


A distinction with no practical difference.
NATO states are arming and training Ukrainians to kill Russian in pursuit of regime change in Moscow.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> A distinction with no practical difference.
> NATO states are arming and training Ukrainians to kill Russian in pursuit of regime change in Moscow.


Of course that is a ridiculous lie, but given Putin's spectacular incompetence and lawlessness, regine change is probably the only way to save Russia.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Of course that is a ridiculous lie, but given Putin's spectacular incompetence and lawlessness, regine change is probably the only way to save Russia.


You really don’t know much. NATO is arming and training, and dumb Joe Biden specifically stated Putin needs to be removed.

So please stop posting. You know nothing.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You really don’t know much. NATO is arming and training, and dumb Joe Biden specifically stated Putin needs to be removed.
> 
> So please stop posting. You know nothing.


Once again you prove you can't put up a post without telling another lie.  NATO is not arming and training Ukrainians, but some NATO members, as well as some states that aren't member, are arming and training Ukrainian fighters, as well as sharing intelligence and providing advice, because most of the world is horrified by Putin's insane invasion of Ukraine.

As for regime change, it should be obvious by now even to someone as slow witted and bigoted as you that the only way to save Russia is get rid of the leadership that got Russia into so much trouble.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> A distinction with no practical difference.
> NATO states are arming and training Ukrainians to kill Russian in pursuit of regime change in Moscow.



NOPE.

NATO states are supporting Ukraine in their fight against an illegal invasion. People everywhere can understand that simple concept.

Putin is the idiot who put his regime on the line with this bloody, failed "special operation".


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Joe Biden specifically stated Putin needs to be removed.


Administration also clearified that its not what their foreign policy goals are, it's Biden's personal view.

In fact removal of Pootler would be the best thing that happened to Russia in a very long time. It would let them wash hands of this bloody mess and set course for reconciliation with the western world, Ukraine and other ex-soviet states.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Administration also clearified that its not what their foreign policy goals are, it's Biden's personal view.
> 
> In fact removal of Pootler would be the best thing that happened to Russia in a very long time. It would let them wash hands of this bloody mess and set course for reconciliation with the western world, Ukraine and other ex-soviet states.


Yeah…lol…only a fool thinks what the potus thinks doesn’t matter.

You might do some research on the USG’s rate of success at regime change. Have you considered Putin might be replaced by someone like Stalin?  Of course you haven’t.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Once again you prove you can't put up a post without telling another lie.  NATO is not arming and training Ukrainians, but some NATO members, as well as some states that aren't member, are arming and training Ukrainian fighters, as well as sharing intelligence and providing advice, because most of the world is horrified by Putin's insane invasion of Ukraine.
> 
> As for regime change, it should be obvious by now even to someone as slow witted and bigoted as you that the only way to save Russia is get rid of the leadership that got Russia into so much trouble.


STOP.  YOU KNOW NOTHING!


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Yeah…lol…only a fool thinks what the potus thinks doesn’t matter.
> 
> You might do some research on the USG’s rate of success at regime change. Have you considered Putin might be replaced by someone like Stalin?  Of course you haven’t.



There is no succeeding to speak of IF YOU ARE NOT TRYING.

US has a goal of supporting Ukraine's defense afgainst Russian invasion. If we succeed at that goal while Putin retains power, *thats fine* too....but of course it's tough to see how he can possibly stay after such collosal clusterfuck. You can fool some people, some of the time, but not all people, all the time.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> There is no succeeding to speak of IF YOU ARE NOT TRYING.
> 
> US has a goal of supporting Ukraine's defense afgainst Russian invasion. If we succeed and Putin stays, *thats fine* too....but of course it's tough to see how he can possibly stay after such collosal clusterfuck. You can fool some people, some of the time, but not all people, all the time.


You have no understanding of American politics or political system. You’re a self-hating Russian.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> STOP.  YOU KNOW NOTHING!


well there you go again with the crazy, laughable "stop!" pleads on an internet forum.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You have no understanding of American politics or political system. You’re a self-hating Russian.


Whatever helps you sleep at night snowflake.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> well there you go again with the crazy, laughable "stop!" pleads on an internet forum.


I’m glad you find me humorous. Russians generally don’t get humor.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night snowflake.


I sleep like a baby my ruskie friend. Though unlike you, I‘m concerned about the horrors the Ukrainian people are enduring so warmongers like you can have a nice war.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I sleep like a baby my ruskie friend. Though unlike you, I‘m concerned about the horrors the Ukrainian people are enduring so warmongers like you can have a nice war.


If you gave any crap about Ukraine and it's people you would condemn Putin's bloody invasion instead of constantly posting deflection and excuses for it.

NO ONE is buying your horseshit.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> If you gave any crap about Ukraine and it's people you would condemn Putin's bloody invasion instead of constantly posting deflection and excuses for it.
> 
> NO ONE is buying your horseshit.


I do condemn it. I condemn all war but unlike you, I know Putin isn’t the only one responsible for this war. 

If you could think rather than emote, you do better on this forum.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I do condemn it. I condemn all war but unlike you, I know Putin isn’t the only one responsible for this war.


Bullshit, anyone reading your tripe knows you love hating America far more than criticizing Pootler and his invasion.

You support for disolution of NATO, droppping all support for Ukraine and effectively letting Russians invade whoever they feel like....and then you have the gull to talk about how much concern you have for Ukranians?

You are out of your fucking mind if you think anyone belives you.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Bullshit, anyone reading your tripe knows you love hating America and Ukraine far more than criticizing Pootler.


Only dumb people like you think that.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Only dumb people like you think that.



Really?

You support disolution of NATO
You favor US/NATO dropping all support for Ukraine or any other country Russia decides to invade next.
You are de-facto for Ukranian defeat against Russian invasion.
You are for all those things Putin only dreams about, while you mouth off about your supposed disaproval of Russian invasion and your supposed concern for Ukranians.

What am I wrong about?


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Yeah…lol…only a fool thinks what the potus thinks doesn’t matter.
> 
> You might do some research on the USG’s rate of success at regime change. Have you considered Putin might be replaced by someone like Stalin?  Of course you haven’t.


Putin is someone like Stalin.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Really?
> 
> You support disolution of NATO
> You favor US/NATO dropping all support for Ukraine or any other country Russia decides to invade next.
> You are de-facto for Ukranian defeat against Russian invasion.
> You are for all those things Putin only dreams about, while you mouth off about your supposed disaproval of Russian invasion and your supposed concern for Ukranians.
> 
> What am I wrong about?


Yes yes and YES!!!  Fuck Ukraine and fuck Russia and fuck you!  What happens there is none of the USG’s business. 

Eliminate NATO NOW. Should have been terminated when the USSR died. I’ve stated this multiple times in this forum. 

There would no war if this had occurred. 

I AM A NONINTERVENTIONIST.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Putin is someone like Stalin.


Yet another uninformed post by you.


----------



## alexa

gipper said:


> Yes yes and YES!!!  Fuck Ukraine and fuck Russia and fuck you!  What happens there is none of the USG’s business.
> 
> Eliminate NATO NOW. Should have been terminated when the USSR died. I’ve stated this multiple times in this forum.
> 
> There would no war if this had occurred.
> 
> I AM A NONINTERVENTIONIST.


Well countries only intervene if there is something in it for them.  What we all should be doing is giving our share to the people of Africa and other needing countries so that they can do everything possible to defend themselves from the climate catastrophe.  Instead we are fighting wars while the people of Africa after serious drought brought on by CC are expecting a massive famine this winter killing millions of people but an awful lot of people seem to think they are so special because they support killing people.


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> Well countries only intervene if there is something in it for them.  What we all should be doing is giving our share to the people of Africa and other needing countries so that they can do everything possible to defend themselves from the climate catastrophe.  Instead we are fighting wars while the people of Africa after serious drought brought on by CC are expecting a massive famine this winter killing millions of people but an awful lot of people seem to think they are so special because they support killing people.


Unfortunately capitalism rules the world. Lots of money to be made by the oligarchs in war. Not much money in helping starving people. 

The oligarchs claim to support efforts on controlling CC yet they push war, which has to be the worst thing they could do to the climate.


----------



## alexa

gipper said:


> Unfortunately capitalism rules the world. Lots of money to be made by the oligarchs in war. Not much money in helping starving people.
> 
> The oligarchs claim to support efforts on controlling CC yet they push war, which has to be the worst thing they could do to the climate.


What do they think they can do with their money if we are experiencing the very worst the planet has to throw at us?  If we are still using the same amount of fossil fuel in 7 or 8 years from now we will be unable to stop that but they still want to carry on doing it.  Insanity.  I know it lags but they know it is coming and they also know that unless they start pulling out all the stops yesterday, very few people will survive.  The South is seeing the worst changes first.  The floods in Pakistan and the famine in Africa.  It comes from CC and the West have already said they will give these countries the money so where is it? All the Super rich have bought themselves underground apartments and some of them have their eyes on space stations. While these might work for Nuclear War they are not going to work once we have destroyed the world which we very nearly have. So clever they make humans extinct and do not allow their grand children the life they had the opportunity because they prefer killing other people.  Insane.


----------



## alexa

This is a very interesting article by the New York Times in Feb of this year. Armed Nationalists in Ukraine Pose a Threat Not Just to Russia

 They give the warning that going ahead with a war against Ukraine would not necessarily be a good thing as it might be something it is difficult to get out of.  They are speaking about the far right nationalist groups and that they will not allow the Government to agree to peace until they want it, Zelensky will have no ability to choose when this war ends.  This of course turned out to be true.  Zelensky originally did not want war and it was not Russia who turned him into the zealot he became it was one or more of the Far Right Nationalist groups.  He wanted them to stop fighting Russia so that he could get mark 2 of that agreement through and they told him he and his family would be dead before they stopped.

Surely Ukraine cannot be a democracy if they allow the ones with the strongest arms who are most feared to rule them?


----------



## Redfish

georgephillip said:


> Can you provide an example of any "left wing zealot" who has ever supported Biden?
> 
> Biden promises wealthy donors he would not 'demonize' the rich
> 
> "Former Vice President Joe Biden told a room of affluent New York donors on Tuesday night that he doesn’t think it’s appropriate to 'demonize' the rich.
> 
> "'You know, what I’ve found is rich people are just as patriotic as poor people. Not a joke. I mean, we may not want to demonize anybody who has made money,' Biden told about 100 donors at the Carlyle Hotel on the Upper East Side, multiple media outlets reported."
> 
> "'We can disagree in the margins, but the truth of the matter is it’s all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No one’s standard of living will change,' he continued, addressing a well-heeled group, including former Clinton Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, former Deputy Treasury Secretary Roger Altman, and Goldman Sachs Chief Financial Officer Stephen Scherr, according to reports."
> 
> Left wing zealots understand the rich are the problem; Biden doesn't.


so the rich are the problem? have you told the hollywood loonies and the rap music porno fiends?


----------



## Redfish

alexa said:


> Well countries only intervene if there is something in it for them.  What we all should be doing is giving our share to the people of Africa and other needing countries so that they can do everything possible to defend themselves from the climate catastrophe.  Instead we are fighting wars while the people of Africa after serious drought brought on by CC are expecting a massive famine this winter killing millions of people but an awful lot of people seem to think they are so special because they support killing people.


yes, and what is in Ukraine for us?  Bribes for politicians via their kids---------Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, Romney just to list 4.


----------



## Toro




----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> This nonsensical claim doesn't become any less stupid with repetition.


Anyone disputing US meddling in Ukraine over the past thirty years left "stupid" behind decades ago.

In the rapidly worsening Ukraine fiasco, the U.S. is reaping exactly what it sowed

"The most critical events that have been airbrushed out of the West's political narrative are the violation of agreements made by Western leaders at the end of the Cold War not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, and the U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in February 2014. 

"Western mainstream media accounts date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia's 2014 reintegration of Crimea, and the decision by ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics.

"But these were not unprovoked actions. 

"They were responses to the U.S.-backed coup, in which an armed mob led by the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia stormed the Ukrainian parliament, forcing elected President Viktor Yanukovych and members of his party to flee for their lives. 

*"After the events of Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, that scenario should now be easier for Americans to understand." *


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I‘m concerned about the horrors the Ukrainian people are enduring





gipper said:


> Yes yes and YES!!!  Fuck Ukraine



And there you have it ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> This is a very interesting article by the New York Times in Feb of this year. Armed Nationalists in Ukraine Pose a Threat Not Just to Russia
> 
> They give the warning that going ahead with a war against Ukraine would not necessarily be a good thing as it might be something it is difficult to get out of.  They are speaking about the far right nationalist groups and that they will not allow the Government to agree to peace until they want it, Zelensky will have no ability to choose when this war ends.  This of course turned out to be true.  Zelensky originally did not want war and it was not Russia who turned him into the zealot he became it was one or more of the Far Right Nationalist groups.  He wanted them to stop fighting Russia so that he could get mark 2 of that agreement through and they told him he and his family would be dead before they stopped.
> 
> Surely Ukraine cannot be a democracy if they allow the ones with the strongest arms who are most feared to rule them?



Pure horseshit. Why the hell would Zelensky give away parts of his country while he has almost unanimous support of Ukranians and MEANS to fight back the invasion?

Ukraine does not need a pushover for Russia you imagine they do.


----------



## Kondor3

Putin's Wet Dream of a revived Soviet empire has cost the Russian People heavily in the past half-year...

Once upon a time, Russia actually "stood for something", but now they have degenerated back to 19th century imperialism, and it's not going well.

Looks like Putin will have his OWN "Port Arthur" and his own "Straits of Tsushima" ...the arrogant autocrat has overreached... and now he is paying the price.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Wtf does that prove? If someone speaks Russian then suddenly Russia has a right to invade a country?


If thousands of Russian speakers are killed by far-right thugs put in power by an illegal US-supported coup designed to facilitate regime change in Moscow, Russians have a right to self-defense.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> If thousands of Russian speakers are killed by far-right thugs put in power by an illegal US-supported coup designed to facilitate regime change in Moscow, Russians have a right to self-defense.


20% of Kiev's population are ethnic Russians. 60% of Kharkiv speaks Russian. How many were "killed by far right thugs"?

Around NONE is the correct answer.

Conflict in Dombas obviously had little to do with what language people spoke, and everything to do with Russia arming *SEPARATISTS *who refused Ukranian sovereignty.


----------



## miketx

My opinion is we don't know what's going on because the media lies all the time.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Anyone disputing US meddling in Ukraine over the past thirty years left "stupid" behind decades ago.
> 
> In the rapidly worsening Ukraine fiasco, the U.S. is reaping exactly what it sowed
> 
> "The most critical events that have been airbrushed out of the West's political narrative are the violation of agreements made by Western leaders at the end of the Cold War not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, and the U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in February 2014.
> 
> "Western mainstream media accounts date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia's 2014 reintegration of Crimea, and the decision by ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics.
> 
> "But these were not unprovoked actions.
> 
> "They were responses to the U.S.-backed coup, in which an armed mob led by the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia stormed the Ukrainian parliament, forcing elected President Viktor Yanukovych and members of his party to flee for their lives.
> 
> *"After the events of Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, that scenario should now be easier for Americans to understand." *


Again, this nonsense doesn't become any less stupid with repetition.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> By that reasoning France has a right to invade Canada because they have some internal hostilities. Right?


Only if you can find a common border between France and Canada; although, since they're both NATO states, arms sales might dwarf the swag Ukraine's been receiving? At least be willing to ask yourself who will get rich(er) from that?

Zelensky is literally selling Ukraine to U.S. corporations on Wall Street | MR Online


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Only if you can find a common border between France and Canada


Yep, now we have new special rules of annexation of other countries.

I guess America has a right to annex parts of Canada if Quebeq gets into despute with Ontario. It's on the common border, so it's totally ok.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> And there you have it ladies and gentlemen.


Have what?


----------



## AntonToo

miketx said:


> My opinion is we don't know what's going on because the media lies all the time.



Do you have your own brain? 

Your own ability to look up and consider information and make judgements?

You sound helpless.


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> What do they think they can do with their money if we are experiencing the very worst the planet has to throw at us?  If we are still using the same amount of fossil fuel in 7 or 8 years from now we will be unable to stop that but they still want to carry on doing it.  Insanity.  I know it lags but they know it is coming and they also know that unless they start pulling out all the stops yesterday, very few people will survive.  The South is seeing the worst changes first.  The floods in Pakistan and the famine in Africa.  It comes from CC and the West have already said they will give these countries the money so where is it? All the Super rich have bought themselves underground apartments and some of them have their eyes on space stations. While these might work for Nuclear War they are not going to work once we have destroyed the world which we very nearly have. So clever they make humans extinct and do not allow their grand children the life they had the opportunity because they prefer killing other people.  Insane.


I tend to think greed is a very powerful motivator particularly with the elite.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Do you have your own brain?
> 
> Your own ability to look up and consider information and make judgements?
> 
> You sound helpless.


Lol. You clearly don’t.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Nazis were making all the same arguments when they invaded Poland. It's nothing but a half-baked excuse to go grab some land.


European history is convoluted enough without US capitalists trying to plunder Russian/Ukrainian natural resources for the second time in 30 years.

History of Poland - Wikipedia

"The *history of Poland* spans over a thousand years, from medieval tribes, Christianization and monarchy; through Poland's Golden Age, expansionism and becoming one of the largest European powers; to its collapse and partitions, two world wars, communism, and the restoration of democracy."


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> They should not OBVIOUSLY. Which is EXAXCTLY WHY our funding comes with conditions for reforms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Corruption concerns involving Ukraine are revived as the war with Russia drags on
> 
> 
> Since the start of the war with Russia, the Biden administration has mostly ignored Ukraine's corruption history. Questions resurfaced about its suitability as a recipient of massive infusions of aid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


Honest Joe Biden, AKA "the Senator from MasterCard" or "the Senator from DuPont" tells you he's cleaning up corruption in Ukraine, and you swallow every load; how fucking gullible are you?





"Zelensky is literally selling Ukraine to U.S. corporations on Wall Street..."​"Ukraine’s Western-backed leader Volodymyr Zelensky virtually opened the New York Stock Exchange on the morning of September 6, symbolically ringing the bell via video stream.

*"Zelensky announced that his country is 'open for business' – that is to say, that foreign corporations are free to come and exploit its plentiful resources and low-paid labor*.

"In a speech launching the neoliberal selloff program Advantage Ukraine, Zelensky offered Wall Street “a chance for you to invest now in projects worth of hundreds of billions of dollars.'

"The financial news service Business Wire published a press release from the Ukrainian government in which Zelensky boasted:


> "The $400+ [billion] in investment options featured on AdvantageUkraine.com span public private partnerships, privatization and private ventures.
> 
> "A USAID-supported project team of investment bankers and researchers appointed by Ukraine’s Ministry of Economy will work with businesses interested in investing."



Zelensky is literally selling Ukraine to U.S. corporations on Wall Street | MR Online


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Honest Joe Biden, AKA "the Senator from MasterCard" or "the Senator from DuPont" tells you he's cleaning up corruption in Ukraine, and you swallow every load; how fucking gullible are you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Zelensky is literally selling Ukraine to U.S. corporations on Wall Street..."​"Ukraine’s Western-backed leader Volodymyr Zelensky virtually opened the New York Stock Exchange on the morning of September 6, symbolically ringing the bell via video stream.
> 
> *"Zelensky announced that his country is 'open for business' – that is to say, that foreign corporations are free to come and exploit its plentiful resources and low-paid labor*.
> 
> "In a speech launching the neoliberal selloff program Advantage Ukraine, Zelensky offered Wall Street “a chance for you to invest now in projects worth of hundreds of billions of dollars.'
> 
> "The financial news service Business Wire published a press release from the Ukrainian government in which Zelensky boasted:
> 
> 
> Zelensky is literally selling Ukraine to U.S. corporations on Wall Street | MR Online



Only a total moron would complain about a leader of a relatively poor country declaring it open for bussiness.

I know commies like you have trouble grasping just how insane you look when you do that.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Only a total moron would complain about a leader of a relatively poor country declaring it open for bussiness.
> 
> I know commies like you have trouble grasping just how insane you look when you do that.


Only a total moron would believe dumb Joe Biden and a Ukrainian male stripper.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Some helmets went on sale somewhere and you think you have some sort of serious case that we should not aid Ukraine? OF COURSE someone, somewhere will scheme and try to make a buck on equipment they've recieved. Any thinking person understands that this is not serious evidence of widespread corruption. This laughable argument constantly circulates in Russian programming, thats what passes for a real story there.
> 
> Come back when a HIMARS goes for sale or you could put some serious numbers on excesses.


Ukraine is the second most corrupt state in Europe, so it's hardly surprising it finds ways to profit from an existential crisis created by US capitalists:

Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone

"In a video sent via Facebook messenger in July, Ivan* can be seen standing next to his car, an early 2010s model Mitsubishi SUV. 

"Smoke is pouring out of the rear window. Ivan laughs and pans his phone’s camera across the length of the vehicle, pointing out bullet holes. 'The turbocharger died in my car,' he said, panning his phone toward the front of the vehicle. 'My commander says I should pay to repair it myself. So to use my own car in the war, I need to buy a new turbocharger with my own money.'

"Ivan flipped the camera toward his face. 'Well, you fucking motherfucker members of parliament, I hope you fuck each other. Devils. I wish you were in our place,' he said.

*"Last month, Ukraine’s parliamentarians voted to give themselves a 70% salary increase. Filings indicate the raise was enabled and encouraged by the billions of dollars and euros of aid* that have poured in from the US and Europe."


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Yet none of those conditions are or will be met.


However, labor laws will be cut, tariffs dropped, industries deregulated, and public utilities sold off to investors at bargain basement rates.

West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections - Multipolarista

"While the United States and Europe flood Ukraine with tens of billions of dollars of weapons, using it as an anti-Russian proxy and pouring fuel on the fire of a brutal war that is devastating the country, they are also making plans to essentially plunder its post-war economy.

"Representatives of Western governments and corporations met in Switzerland this July to plan a series of harsh neoliberal policies to impose on post-war Ukraine, calling to cut labor laws, 'open markets,' drop tariffs, deregulate industries, and 'sell state-owned enterprises to private investors.'"


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> That's just your fantasy. Ukraine has come a long way.


From where?
How have Ukrainian labor laws fared under its current western puppet government?

West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections - Multipolarista

"In March 2022, the Ukrainian parliament adopted emergency legislation allowing employers to suspend collective agreements. 

"Then in May, it passed a permanent reform package effectively exempting the vast majority of Ukrainian workers (those at businesses with fewer than 200 employees) from Ukrainian labor law."


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Yep, I point out you post like a shill for Kremlin, you respond with something about America.
> 
> Constant deflection


While you shill constantly for the interests of Ruslan Stefanchuk and other assorted Ukrainian parasites who will loot their homeland the same way Boris Yeltsin and his cronies shocked Russia in the 1990s.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> What's your argument?
> 
> America is supposedly bad, therefore Russia's bloody invasion into Ukraine and annexing their lands is fine?
> 
> It's a stupid, incoherent argument.


Since it's your argument, you tell me.
America is the biggest threat to world peace as its practice of eternal war since 1945 has shown. It is the only country which has killed millions of innocent civilians thousands of miles from its homeland. Russian actions in Ukraine are not "fine"; however, they are the direct result of US provocations. Russia's bad. America's worse.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> From where?
> How have Ukrainian labor laws fared under its current western puppet government?
> 
> West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections - Multipolarista
> 
> "In March 2022, the Ukrainian parliament adopted emergency legislation allowing employers to suspend collective agreements.
> 
> "Then in May, it passed a permanent reform package effectively exempting the vast majority of Ukrainian workers (those at businesses with fewer than 200 employees) from Ukrainian labor law."



Yep, idiot communist thinks privatization and deregulation are dirty words.


----------



## Toro




----------



## Toro




----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Yes we have a horrendous history of war crimes and mass murder, yet many Americans know nothing of this.
> 
> The power of corporate media and government schooling to deceive shouldn’t be discounted.


Many Americans are exceptionally ignorant of how their government actually functions on the world stage. Possibly that century-long tyranny is about to end?




"Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Monday that the process of de-dollarization of the global economy is 'inevitable.'"

Russian president says 'de-dollarization' of world economy 'inevitable'


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Ukraine is the second most corrupt state in Europe, so it's hardly surprising it finds ways to profit from an existential crisis created by US capitalists:
> 
> Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone
> 
> "In a video sent via Facebook messenger in July, Ivan* can be seen standing next to his car, an early 2010s model Mitsubishi SUV.
> 
> "Smoke is pouring out of the rear window. Ivan laughs and pans his phone’s camera across the length of the vehicle, pointing out bullet holes. 'The turbocharger died in my car,' he said, panning his phone toward the front of the vehicle. 'My commander says I should pay to repair it myself. So to use my own car in the war, I need to buy a new turbocharger with my own money.'
> 
> "Ivan flipped the camera toward his face. 'Well, you fucking motherfucker members of parliament, I hope you fuck each other. Devils. I wish you were in our place,' he said.
> 
> *"Last month, Ukraine’s parliamentarians voted to give themselves a 70% salary increase. Filings indicate the raise was enabled and encouraged by the billions of dollars and euros of aid* that have poured in from the US and Europe."



...Ukraine plundered aid and lost the war? 

Did you just seriously parrot that while Ukraine is blitzing through front lines RIGHT NOW, using western hardware, knocking Russians the fuck out of entire Kharkiv oblast and taking Izium?

And as I've already shown Ukraine is ranked  120/180 countries on a prominent corruption index, with notable improvement over the last 8 years. Russia ranks about 160.

Any other blatant bullshit?


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> However, labor laws will be cut, tariffs dropped, industries deregulated, and public utilities sold off to investors at bargain basement rates.
> 
> West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections - Multipolarista
> 
> "While the United States and Europe flood Ukraine with tens of billions of dollars of weapons, using it as an anti-Russian proxy and pouring fuel on the fire of a brutal war that is devastating the country, they are also making plans to essentially plunder its post-war economy.
> 
> "Representatives of Western governments and corporations met in Switzerland this July to plan a series of harsh neoliberal policies to impose on post-war Ukraine, calling to cut labor laws, 'open markets,' drop tariffs, deregulate industries, and 'sell state-owned enterprises to private investors.'"


It’s the way of neoliberal capitalists.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, idiot communist thinks privatization and deregulation are dirty words.


Lol.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol.



Hey look another communist idiot that doesn't understand just how far out on the fringe you fools are.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Hey look another communist idiot that doesn't understand his audience


Oh I understand you very well. I can’t help it you’re a warmongering bloodthirsty idiot.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Oh I understand you very well. I can’t help it you’re a warmongering bloodthirsty idiot.



Warmongering according to these nutbag commies: deregulation and open markets.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Warmongering according to these nutbag commies: deregulation and open markets.


Once again you prove you don’t know what’s going on. The US is a crony capitalist neo-Fascist economy. This isn’t free market capitalism fool.

Go back to Russia where you belong. you ll do better there.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> The US is a crony capitalist neo-Fascist economy.


Yep, just let these useful idiots talk. They self-defeat in seconds.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Yep, just let them talk.


You think you’re making a profound statement, but you’re actually stating ignorance.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You think your making a profound statement, but you’re actually stating ignorance.


Look moron, I don't know how old you are, but commies like you are a quickly dying breed,

We've had a long run at the whole capitalism vs communism shtik and YOU LOST LONG TIME AGO. You are now but a tiny, quickly expiring fringe. What you say is just a quick way to publicly soil your pants and discredit yourself as a fool.

Please don't let me stop you.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Look moron, I don't know how old you are, but commies like you are a quickly dying breed,
> 
> We've had a long run at the whole capitalism vs communism shtik and YOU LOST LONG TIME AGO. You are now but a tiny, quickly expiring fringe. What say is is just a quick way to publicly soil your pants and discredit yourself as a fool.
> 
> Please don't let me stop you.


Go back Russia!  You know nothing about America other than what the lying USG told you.

Calling me a commie is so childish, but typical of fools like you.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Go back Russia!  You know nothing about America other than what the lying USG told you.
> 
> Calling me a commie is so childish, but typical of fools like you.



lol, a guy who tells people to "go back to Russia" is calling someone childish? Irony is lost on some.

And what is it you think you are when you think deregulation and open markets are dirty warmongering words?

A socialist-not-communist maybe?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> lol, a guy who tells people to "go back to Russia" is calling someone childish? Irony is lost on some.
> 
> And what is it you think you are when you think deregulation and open markets are dirty warmongering words?
> 
> A socialist-not-communist maybe?


I’m sorry I can’t help you.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Was there something in Russia's  pledge signed agreement about Ukraine's internal governing matters? *Nope, nothing.*
> 
> Ukraine lived up to their end of the bargain and eliminated their nuclear stock. Maybe they shouldn't have, because Russia annexed their land as soon as the moment became convenient.


Tell us why you believe WWIII is preferable to the current situation in Ukraine? When the US backed an illegal coup in 2014 instigating a civil war in Ukraine, all agreements with the legitimate government in Kiev became moot.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> Warmongering according to these nutbag commies: deregulation and open markets.





AntonToo said:


> Hey look another communist idiot that doesn't understand just how far out on the fringe you fools are.


I don't think you are Russian  If you were I don't see you picking up the word 'commie' to anyone you do not see as identical to you.  Calling people on the left Commies is very much an American thing.  You won't find it as the first call in the UK or Europe and I very much doubt you would find it in Russia.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> The statist warmongers think NATO is a fun loving strictly defensive force. Ignoring it’s murderous offensive actions in Serbia, Libya, and Syria…and it’s billions of dollars of offensive weapons and aggressive war gaming on Russia’s border.


There has never been a shortage of flag-flappers in this country. For a brief period I thought the "peace dividend" might diminish such delusional thinking, but 9/11 has altered that possibility.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> There has never been a shortage of flag-flappers in this country. For a brief period I thought the "peace dividend" might diminish such delusional thinking, but 9/11 has altered that possibility.


War has become a policy promoted and enacted throughout our government, media, and economy. We have become a militaristic imperialist nation. Of course this has been true for a long time, but has gotten progressively worse.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> It is a response to Putin's imperialist aggressions in Ukraine.


Putin's actions in Ukraine are defensive since all the imperialist aggression is coming from the US and its NATO puppets.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Putin's actions in Ukraine are defensive since all the imperialist aggression is coming from the US and its NATO puppets.


You failed the course.  Get a bucket and start cleaning out the bathrooms.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> Putin's actions in Ukraine are defensive since all the imperialist aggression is coming from the US and its NATO puppets.


You know they’ll never understand the truth.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> I don't think you are Russian  If you were I don't see you picking up the word 'commie' to anyone you do not see as identical to you.  Calling people on the left Commies is very much an American thing.  You won't find it as the first call in the UK or Europe and I very much doubt you would find it in Russia.


I am an* American*, who was born, and immigratred from, Russia.

I'm a true-blue American lefty, but anyone who thinks that deregulation and open market is somehow evil warmongering is a silly socialist/commie as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Putin's actions in Ukraine are defensive since all the imperialist aggression is coming from the US and its NATO puppets.


So NATO, which has NEVER touched any Russian border needed Ukraine to kill Russians....so Russians had to "defensively" invade and bomb the shit out of Ukraine...so that NATO finally arms Ukraine to the teeth and they could finally kill alot of Russians (~40,000 invaders and counting), embarass the shit out of "worlds 2nd best army" and send Russian economy back to the 90's.

Who could ever possibly think that Putin DIDN'T have to get Russia into this bloody clusterfuck?


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Tell us why you believe WWIII is preferable to the current situation in Ukraine?



As soon as you tell me why you have two assholes.


----------



## alexa

georgephillip said:


> There has never been a shortage of flag-flappers in this country. For a brief period I thought the "peace dividend" might diminish such delusional thinking, but 9/11 has altered that possibility.


9/11 changed the world.  It is interesting to remember simple things like how if some country or situation was acting aggressively, certainly in the UK, we would ask why they were doing it.  You can't sort anything out if you do not know what is going on. That totally ended with 9/11.  They were evil and had to be destroyed.  I don't think, apart from crazies in NI I had even heard the word 'evil' used in the UK but just one day after 9/11 Tony Blair used it and that was the change pretty much done except it took a few days in the US and a few months, maybe years in the UK for many people to stop trying to work out what motivated 9/11 apart from 'jealousy'!

9/11 changed what was a West developing psychological maturity to one with no ability to self reflect.  One where having empathy is considered a gross flaw.

Bin Laden believed this would happen.  He has been shown to have been correct and hence, he won.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> I am an* American*, who was born, and immigratred from, Russia.
> 
> I'm a true-blue American lefty, but anyone who thinks that deregulation and open market is somehow evil warmongering is a silly socialist/commie as far as I'm concerned.


You are not a 'lefty'.


----------



## gipper

alexa said:


> You are not a 'lefty'.


Be nice!  He doesn’t understand American politics or know anything of it’s history.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Russian claims about what happened in Donbas are dubious at best, but what we do know is that Putin has slaughtered tens of thousands of Ukrainians, many of whom are Russianspeakers.


What's dubious about the 14,000 dead Ukrainians or the 50,000 wounded Ukrainians or the 1.6 million internally displaced Ukrainians since the US instigated, illegal coup in 2014?

War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> More crazy talk from you.  Putin is not a very bright guy, but he clearly is smart enough to avoid even the appearance of a threat against a NATO member.


Putin is smart enough to know he's no longer fighting a Ukrainian army equipped by NATO, but a NATO army manned by Ukrainians; he's about as likely to back down today as JFK was in 1962.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> What's dubious about the 14,000 dead Ukrainians or the 50,000 wounded Ukrainians or the 1.6 million internally displaced Ukrainians since the US instigated, illegal coup in 2014?
> 
> War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia


One would think most Americans would be noninterventionists or isolationists, after decades of failures by the military industrial complex. From Vietnam to Afghanistan, all we have to show is death and destruction. Trillions wasted on foreign wars should inform Americans, but somehow it doesn’t.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> More crazy talk from you.  Putin is not a very bright guy, but he clearly is smart enough to avoid even the appearance of a threat against a NATO member.


Yeah he’s not bright, yet he’s somehow managed to stay in power for 20 years. lol. 

Why would Putin fear threatening a NATO member?  I thought NATO was purely a defensive alliance.

I know you won’t answer the question, because you’re a pussy.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> You are not a 'lefty'.



  Well since you fancy yourself the expert, would you please tell ME what I AM on American political spectrum.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> he's no longer fighting a Ukrainian army equipped by NATO, but a NATO army manned by Ukrainians



Laughing my ass off at your pathetic excuses for Putin's giant failures. Thanks.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Laughing my ass off at your pathetic excuses for Putin's giant failures. Thanks.


Apparently you don’t know the English definition of Failure.

Its hardly Putin’s failure that his army must fight a NATO army.

Look it up. In a dictionary.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Well since you fancy yourself the expert, would you please tell ME what I AM on American political spectrum.


A warmonger.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Well since you fancy yourself the expert, would you please tell ME what I AM on American political spectrum.


Give this some thought, if you can…
If we were being told the truth about this war they wouldn't be banning Russian media, we wouldn't be hearing propagandistic messaging like "unprovoked invasion" at every mention of Ukraine, and those expressing scrutiny of all this wouldn't be swarmed by astroturf empire trolls.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Laughing my ass off at your pathetic excuses for Putin's giant failures. Thanks.


How about this?


----------



## alexa

gipper said:


> How about this?
> View attachment 696087


Yes, I noticed that the US was demanding they embrace Neo Liberalism if they wanted US help.  Does seem like it is true.  Right now money is all that matters...and Ukraine should not have allowed them to buy up their farmland.  They are buying up all farmland they can get together with their rights to a lot of people's water.  Absolutely essential things.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> How about this?
> View attachment 696087


It's bullshit, there were many clean governing reforms and legal minority protections as conditions.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> It's bullshit, there were many clean governing reforms and legal minority protections as conditions.


Neo Liberalism and Democracy do not go together. Where Neoliberalism is, is a Plutocracy.  I believe in Democracy.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> Yes, I noticed that the US was demanding they embrace Neo Liberalism if they wanted US help.  Does seem like it is true.  Right now money is all that matters...and Ukraine should not have allowed them to buy up their farmland.


Wtf? Who "bought up their farmland"?


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> Wtf? Who "bought up their farmland"?


see post 695


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> Neo Liberalism and Democracy do not go together. Where Neoliberalism is, is a Plutocracy.  I believe in Democracy.


They go togather great in the foremost developed democracies. What the hell are you even talking about?

"Neo Liberalism" is simply a reference to reducing gov market regulations. Some regulations are good, some are not so good, only ideology driven fools think that a country loosing up some regulations (or increasing them) is somehow inherently bad, no matter what.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Wtf? Who "bought up their farmland"?


It’s a very old tactic. I’m surprised you haven’t heard of it, well maybe not.

This is what the USG and it’s partners/donors the big multinational firms do every time. They’ve been doing it in central and south America for over a century.

Get informed. This will work better if you’re informed.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> It’s a very old tactic. I’m surprised you haven’t heard of it, well maybe not.
> 
> This is what the USG and it’s partners/donors the big multinational firms do every time. They’ve been doing it in central and south America for over a century.


Doing what? Efficiently grow food and distribute it for profit?

Sounds kinda evil. Lets have government do that, it's what it does best after all


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> They go togather great in the foremost developed democracies. What the hell are you even talking about?


You may hear they are together but that does not mean they are.  The fundamental thing about democracy is each person has an equal voice.  The fact that each person has the right to an equal voice in representative Government is shown through everyone having one vote.  Democratic Governments have responsibilities to do things to make sure that they continue to act in a democratic way as far as possible giving each person an equal chance to achieve.  This can include things like making sure the majority to not harm the minority and helping children born into poverty to find a way out.  You would need to go and look at political theorists and see what they say about Democracy to get a better idea.  We had Democracy for a very short time and during that time, political theorists were working out what it was and what we needed to do to make sure it stayed with total knowledge that those who already had bags of money would be trying to get Governments acting for them again which is what they always did.  Capitalism and Democracy do not easily sit together.  The reason for that is because the Government must act to try to achieve what the people want shown by their votes.  If a Government allows Capitalists to become too rich, like being Monopolies then the Government can no longer act for the people but instead must work for those with the most wealth or they will be thrown in the scrap heap.  We knew this after WW2 in both the US and the UK and that is why my parent's generation went berserk if they heard of monopolies.  They had found out in WW2 how monopolies interfere with Democracy and how easily they sit with fascism.  We are not Democracies.  Our future depends on a few extremely rich people.  In the US for instance 3 people own as much wealth as half of your population and only the most rich have seen any rise in their standard of living since the 70's and for them it has been enormous.  The lowest paid are in a worse position than they were then.  We are not Democracies.  Even if some Americans get a vote every four years, your Government will not be working for your needs and desires but for those of the most wealthy.  America and the UK are Plutocracies.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> You may hear they are together but that does not mean they are.


It's not about "hearing" something for me, I'm LIVING IN ONE.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> What's dubious about the 14,000 dead Ukrainians or the 50,000 wounded Ukrainians or the 1.6 million internally displaced Ukrainians since the US instigated, illegal coup in 2014?
> 
> War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia


Self serving Russian claims unsupported by any of the many other journalists who were there.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> I live in one, it's not about "hearing" something, it's about LIVING IT.


which you don't.  Here is a simple article which will make it clearer than what I said.  I said Plutocracies they speak of Oligarchy's  Why the US and Britain are not democracies


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Putin is smart enough to know he's no longer fighting a Ukrainian army equipped by NATO, but a NATO army manned by Ukrainians; he's about as likely to back down today as JFK was in 1962.


Still more crazy talk from you.  Russia is being beaten by a tactically superior Ukrainian army with 16 Himars.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> If a Government allows Capitalists to become too rich, like being Monopolies then the Government can no longer act for the people but instead must work for those with the most wealth or they will be thrown in the scrap heap.



I see, so according to you what is the "REAL" democracy, among all the supposedly fake ones that allow people to get too rich?


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> which you don't


Yep, America not a democracy, too many rich people for your socialist tastes.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Dragonlady said:


> Your very possible solution is NEVER going to happen.  The Ukrainian people will NEVER submit at this point.



How would you know? Are there a lot of Ukrainians in the part of China you live in?


----------



## Uncensored2008

AntonToo said:


> Nope! It's anyone who posts same silly nonsense that Russian propagandists are pushing day in and out on Putin Vision is obviously drinking from the same well.


You're such a clown.

You're doing this dance to prop up Quid Pro and keep the foreign aid spigot open so that taxpayer funds can continue to be embezzled.


----------



## AntonToo

Uncensored2008 said:


> You're such a clown.
> 
> You're doing this dance to prop up Quid Pro and keep the foreign aid spigot open so that taxpayer funds can continue to be embezzled.



This must upset Ukraine hating Trumpsters like yourself to no end:









						Ukraine war: A successful surprise attack - but danger still looms
					

The BBC's defence correspondent looks at what's behind Ukraine's potential breakthrough in the east.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Uncensored2008

ESay said:


> I don't think 'spout' is a right word. But you are somewhat in line with it.
> 
> One of the main examples is the cause of the war. You blame the US and NATO for provoking Russia. That is not exactly true.
> 
> Read some history of these lands and people living there to grasp what is going on. And history not from 2014 or 1991, but much earlier. Read about the Ukrainian revolution of 1918-1921, about the period that is called the Ruin and so on.
> 
> In 1918 there wasn't NATO and 'American biolabs' but that didn't prevent the Russians from ruining newly formed Ukrainian state.
> 
> The main cause of the war is the Russians from all political spectrum reject the right of Ukrainians to exist as a separate nation. They follow the same policy of 'gathering Russian lands' set up by Ivan III back in 1500s, no matter how absurd and out-of-date it is now.


 Not to mention Stalin's full on genocide of Ukrainians, the Holodomor.


----------



## alexa

AntonToo said:


> I see, so according to you what is the "REAL" democracy, among all the supposedly fake ones that allow people to get too rich


Oh I did not create the meaning of Democracy.  That I think belongs to the ancient Greeks.  I gave you a link so you could get more information.  You seem to be doing what I have noticed you do a great deal, refuse to educate yourself

From the article I linked you to.  Even if you are so lazy you want to remain ignorant, others may not 



> .....
> Democracy against democracies​Let’s begin with the ancient Greek word “democracy”.* The term does not denote a political regime as many have come to understand it. Monarchies and oligarchies are political regimes. They concentrate sovereign power in the hands of the wealthy few. In a democracy, by contrast, the people (the demos) – without qualification – govern.*



As I said earlier during the time from the war till Thatcher/Reagan we were working out what Democracy was and how we could fulfil it in a Representative system with full knowledge that those who had the power before would be trying to grab it back.  During this time both the US and the UK had the fastest growing social mobility of all time.  Both of us now are at the bottom of the pile for first world countries in this.  During this time people of our countries when they were into investigative journalism and found our Government, our Military and so on acting in a way which we would not approve of told us.  In that way we began to create the society we wanted and that investigating and making sure Democracy is serving the people is one of the most important parts of it. Now if someone does this they are likely to spend the rest of their life in Prison.  Being critical of society is absolutely necessary to keep the society serving the people's wishes.  In a Democracy it is not enough to agree with what the Government is doing.  If one does not agree it is their right to make that clear.  Now when people criticise their country they are told to move to another.  That is not a democracy working.

You do not live in a Democracy.  You live in a Plutocracy or indeed given that only 3 individuals have as much wealth as half of your people, an Oligarchy.  Now the fact that you seem to approve of living in a Plutocracy does not in any way change the fact that it is a Plutocracy or Oligarchy.  Democracy is much more than having a vote every 4 or 5 years.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> Oh I did not create the meaning of Democracy.  That I think belongs to the ancient Greeks.


You don't know what you are talking about, what is today called democracies would be called REPUBLICS by the Greeks, because they are of REPRESENTATIVE sort.


----------



## AntonToo

alexa said:


> You do not live in a Democracy.


AGAIN:

Who according to you lives in a "REAL" democracy, among all the supposedly fake ones that allow people to get too rich?


----------



## Uncensored2008

AntonToo said:


> This must really make you mad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine war: A successful surprise attack - but danger still looms
> 
> 
> The BBC's defence correspondent looks at what's behind Ukraine's potential breakthrough in the east.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com



Utterly irrelevant.

I'm tired of having politicians steal us blind.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> It's not about making threats asshole, but if he were to attack a NATO member, Russia would be humiliated even worse than it is now in Ukraine.


*What's your estimate of casualty ratios between Ukrainian and Russian forces in Donbass?*

SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains

"The second phase of the Russian operation had the Russians regroup to focus on the liberation of Donbass. 

"Here, Russia adapted its operational methodology, using its superiority in firepower to conduct a slow, deliberate advance against Ukrainian forces dug into extensive defensive networks and, in doing so, achieving unheard of *casualty ratios that had ten or more Ukrainians being killed or wounded for every Russian casualty."*


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> The guarantees in the Budapest Memorandum were made in exchange for persuading Ukraine give its nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at that time, to Russia in exchange for guarantees of sovereignty. There were no caveats about NATO or the EU or about any internal strife within Ukraine. If the US had not foolishly


When Ukraine became a full-fledged NATO proxy logistically sustained by NATO, trained by NATO, furnished with NATO intelligence, and working closely with NATO military planner, the Budapest Memorandum became inoperative. 

Like every other sovereign state on this planet, Russia will not tolerate a hostile military presence on its borders.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> If the US had not foolishly persuaded Ukraine to trust Russia, Ukraine would have kept its nuclear missiles and would have needed no help in deterring Russian aggression


I can't believe anyone is sufficiently stupid to believe this tripe. No Ukrainian proxy-puppet would have ever risked the lives of millions to advance US efforts at regime change in Moscow.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> You know very well none of that is true and you know no one else thinks it's true, so the  fact that you continue to post such nonsense can lead to only to the conclusion that you have no  real interest in what is going on in Ukraine.


I know Ukraine has been a CIA proxy for the last 75 years.




Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online

"The MSM have constructed an undiluted narrative about 'Putin’s War' that disguises America’s imperialist expansion into eastern Europe. 

"It is utterly Orwellian in its effort to project onto Russia what the U.S. and its main imperial ally, the UK (which a British journalist deemed 'America’s tugboat'), have been doing non-stop since 1945—and indeed for centuries."


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> You along with other pro-Russian American loons operate in 50 years time frame. History of Europe didn't start with creation of NATO, you clueless twat.


Simplistic chicken-shits like you ignore Ukraine's glorious Nazi backstory which is far more relevant to today's events than conflicts from centuries past:

Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online

"On December 16, 2021, a draft resolution of the UN General Assembly was listed as 'Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.'

"It passed by a recorded vote of 130 in favor (mainly the Third World, constituting the large majority of the world’s population), 51 abstentions (mainly the EU, Australia, New Zealand and Canada), *and two opposed, the two being Ukraine and the United States. *




"The Western European countries that Hitler conquered and occupied would not condemn present-day manifestations of Nazism and fascism."


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> *What's your estimate of casualty ratios between Ukrainian and Russian forces in Donbass?*
> 
> SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains
> 
> "The second phase of the Russian operation had the Russians regroup to focus on the liberation of Donbass.
> 
> "Here, Russia adapted its operational methodology, using its superiority in firepower to conduct a slow, deliberate advance against Ukrainian forces dug into extensive defensive networks and, in doing so, achieving unheard of *casualty ratios that had ten or more Ukrainians being killed or wounded for every Russian casualty."*


At the beginning of this war people generally overestimated the effectiveness of the Russian army and greatly underestimated the effectiveness of the Ukrainian army.  General Pershing famously said, "Infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars," and the Russian attempt to capture Kyiv failed because the Ukrainian army targeted Russian supply lines so effectively that front line soldiers ran low on food, fuel and ammunition and were unable to replace tanks and trucks they lost, so the Russian army was forced to retreat to positions closer to the Russian border so that its supply lines would not be compromised.  

This was the first intelligent thing the Russians had done since the start of the war, and for a short time it worked well and the Russians were able to gradually expand the area they controlled close to the border, but then Ukraine received the HIMARS and used them to again disrupt Russian supply lines and cause shortage of food, fuel and ammunition along the Russian front lines and stopped all progress by the Russian army.

Next, the tactically superior Ukrainian forces recognized the Russian invasion force was far too small to hold on to the area it controlled near the border and manipulated the Russian command to move forces from the north and east to bolster defenses in the south and Ukrainian forces easily broke through the weakened Russian lines in the north and are still driving the Russian army back into Russia, handing Russia its second major defeat in this war.  

It should be clear at this point to anyone with eyes that can see and brains that can think that this war is not and never was winnable by Russia and that the present Russian leadership is simply  not competent.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Yep, we we support pro-democratic movements in many countries. We told them that we will recognize their newly government and not halt aid. What we DIDN'T do is fight their battle for them, they did that and they are doing it today against a bloody Russian invasion.


The US government couldn't care less about democracy promotion.

It cares a great deal about promoting the interests of its corporate citizens particularly those who get rich selling weapons responsible for the deaths/displacement of millions of innocent civilians.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/14/saudi-arabia-human-rights-mbs-biden/


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> The US government couldn't care less about democracy promotion.


Ok Russian poodle, whatever you say.


----------



## AntonToo

Uncensored2008 said:


> Utterly irrelevant.



Wrong, wrong again.

Ukranians effectively using American millitary aid to beat back Russians is DIRECTLY RELAVANT to the charge that our millitary aid is supposedly being squandered. 

We are spending to arm Ukraine and we have results to show for it.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Imagined???  Yeah the USG had nothing to do with wars in Syria, Afghanistan, or Libya.
> 
> Are you fucking CRAZY???


Ukraine was in the USG's crosshairs long before Syria, Afghanistan, and Libya:

Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online

"Perhaps Truman’s most destructive initiative was the creation of the CIA, a monster that he later claimed got out of hand, telling a friend '*I never would have agreed to the formulation of the Central Intelligence Agency back in forty-seven, if I had known it would become the American Gestapo*, 'though as president he supported its clandestine activities in Eastern Europe.

"The immediate target was Soviet Ukraine, which the CIA hoped through its clandestine projects to 'crack apart' with saboteurs behind enemy lines."


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> The subject here is Russia's horrific invasion of Ukraine; stop trying to change the subject.


As always, you ignore the context of Russia's military operation in Ukraine; the US has been running destabilization attempts in Russia through Ukraine for 75 years, and Putin knows it.

Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online

"By the early 1950s, after parachuting 85 agents into Ukraine, three-quarters of them captured, the CIA conceded that the project was a dismal failure. 

"This did not deter the cold warriors from using regime-change mercenaries elsewhere, including the failed Bay of Pigs a decade later."


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Joe Biden had a lot do with that.


And also...




Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Ukraine is no one's proxy. They are their own country, they have their internationally recognized borders and *they* chose their own future, not Americans or Russians.


Ukraine has been a US proxy for most of the last four decades.

Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online

"Henceforth, this began a steady progression of NATO enlargement, which certified Ukraine as a future member and a de facto associate member and brought arms deliveries, weapons training, and *coordinated war games with the Ukrainian army in anticipation of a war with Russia*—along with bank accounts for cooperating Ukrainian politicians."


----------



## Uncensored2008

AntonToo said:


> Wrong, wrong again.
> 
> Ukranians effectively using American millitary aid to beat back Russians is DIRECTLY RELAVANT to the charge that our millitary aid is supposedly being squandered.
> 
> We are spending to arm Ukraine and we have results to show for it.



The Ukrainians have given Ivan a bloody nose, which is great. Still this whole ordeal is designed to let Quid Pro and his cronies rob the treasury.


----------



## AntonToo

Uncensored2008 said:


> The Ukrainians have given Ivan a bloody nose, which is great. Still this whole ordeal is designed to let Quid Pro and his cronies rob the treasury.



It's really too bad your are this damn twisted with Biden hate and could never EVER admit US doing the right thing in Ukraine.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Ukraine has been a US proxy for most of the last four decades.
> 
> Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online
> 
> "Henceforth, this began a steady progression of NATO enlargement, which certified Ukraine as a future member and a de facto associate member and brought arms deliveries, weapons training, and *coordinated war games with the Ukrainian army in anticipation of a war with Russia*—along with bank accounts for cooperating Ukrainian politicians."



Cool story Boris, but it was Putin's invasion of Ukraine that directly enlarged NATO to include Sweden and Finland.

Smart, real smart.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> Simplistic chicken-shits like you ignore Ukraine's glorious Nazi backstory which is far more relevant to today's events than conflicts from centuries past:
> 
> Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online
> 
> "On December 16, 2021, a draft resolution of the UN General Assembly was listed as 'Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.'
> 
> "It passed by a recorded vote of 130 in favor (mainly the Third World, constituting the large majority of the world’s population), 51 abstentions (mainly the EU, Australia, New Zealand and Canada), *and two opposed, the two being Ukraine and the United States. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The Western European countries that Hitler conquered and occupied would not condemn present-day manifestations of Nazism and fascism."


Idiot, ethnic and regional conflicts in this part of Europe go back for centuries. And that 'Nazi backstory' is just one part of it that happened much later, despite what Russian propaganda feeds you. Read about the Khmelnytsky uprising and Koliivshchyna as examples. But of course you won't. You are too simple minded for that.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> It ranks 122/180, thats bellow average but certainly not one of the most corrupt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index - Explore Ukraine’s results
> 
> 
> How does Ukraine measure up in the 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.transparency.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can also note significant improvement since 2014.


Zelensky's at least as corrupt as the US puppets who preceded him.
He is Ukraine's version of Boris Yeltsin whose principal job is to facilitate the plunder of Ukraine's natural resources the same way Russia was looted in the 1990s; in case you don't understand what corruption is, now you know.

West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections - Multipolarista

"While the United States and Europe flood Ukraine with tens of billions of dollars of weapons, using it as an anti-Russian proxy and pouring fuel on the fire of a brutal war that is devastating the country, they are also making plans to essentially plunder its post-war economy.

"Representatives of Western governments and corporations met in Switzerland this July to plan a series of harsh neoliberal policies to impose on post-war Ukraine, *calling to cut labor laws, 'open markets,' drop tariffs, deregulate industries, and 'sell state-owned enterprises to private investors.'"*


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Russian advance on Kiev was a total MEAT GRINDER. Russians (illigaly) sent in police units to keep civilians on order after take over, who the fuck does that for a fake? But  no matter what their goals where, it cost them thousands of soldiers in bodybags, elite paratroopers included.
> 
> By all accounts it was a total clusterfuck and embarrassment.


Who told you that?


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> You decapitate government and have military fold.
> 
> See Afghanistan. They had way more soldiers and hardware than Taliban, but because their leadership was chicken shit and they didn't believe in their country, Taliban rolled them over.
> 
> Putin was clearly misinformed about Ukraine, their belief in their state and the resolve of their leadership.


Killing Zelensky would not have decapitated Ukraine's government.
Russia's advance on Kyiv was designed to pin down Ukrainian forces in and around Ukraine's capital while Russian forces shaped the battlefield in Donbass which has always been the principal objective. Nothing that's happened since then has changed the ultimate outcome of the US proxy war in Ukraine; it will end just like Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan with millions of murdered, maimed, and displaced civilians and record profits for defense contractors.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Moron just because our justice system sends people to jail for law breaking, does not mean we don't have freedom of speech and fair political process.
> 
> How desparate do you have to be to even suggest that bullshit?


Kind of depends on who writes the laws and whether or not those laws are designed to maintain private prison populations at levels sufficient to keep shareholders happy. The US imprisons a greater percentage of its population than any other country on the planet and that's not an accident.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> “Since 1945, the US has tried to overthrow more than 50 governments, many of them democratically elected; grossly interfered in 30 countries; bombed the civilian population of 30 countries; interfered in elections in 30 countries; used chemical and biological weapons; and attempted t ..


That pretty much explains why millions of Ukrainians don't have a home today.
Wonder who's next?


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> That pretty much explains why millions of Ukrainians don't have a home today.
> Wonder who's next?


Exactly. This brutal war in Ukraine is like most wars and interventions the USG has been involved in. Its an old story repeated many times, yet few Americans can see it.

I suspect Taiwan would make an excellent choice for destruction, by the USG and oligarchs who control it.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Exactly. This brutal war in Ukraine is like most wars and interventions the USG has been involved in. Its an old story repeated many times, yet few Americans can see it.
> 
> I suspect Taiwan would make an excellent choice for destruction, by the USG and oligarchs who control it.


What? Now Taiwan and the US government are guilty that the CCP wants to get control over the island? You loons have neither common sense no dignity. 

I understand why some Americans and Europeans don't want to support Ukraine in this war. But Taiwan? 

Of course it is the Taiwanese are guilty of not wanting to get under the thumb of Beijing autocrats. Especially given Hong Kong in mind. Fucking idiots.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> What? Now Taiwan and the US government are guilty that the CCP wants to get control over the island? You loons have neither common sense no dignity.
> 
> I understand why some Americans and Europeans don't want to support Ukraine in this war. But Taiwan?
> 
> Of course it is the Taiwanese are guilty of not wanting to get under the thumb of Beijing autocrats. Especially given Hong Kong in mind. Fucking idiots.


Lol. YOU calling ME an idiot. LMFAO!

If it were up to you, you’d turn Taiwan into a wasteland with millions of dead women and children because you oppose China taking the island, which has always been part of China.

If you could think, you be so much more fun.

Hong Kong…lmfao!


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Lol. YOU calling ME an idiot. LMFAO!
> 
> If it were up to you, you’d turn Taiwan into a wasteland with millions of dead women and children because you oppose China taking the island, which has always been part of China.
> 
> If you could think, you be so much more fun.
> 
> Hong Kong…lmfao!


Yes, I am calling you an idiot. I understand that your arrogance fiercely protests that because you deem yourself something like a genius. 

Taiwan IS China, you ignorant fool. Ever heard about the Chinese civil war of the 1940s? The Taiwanese government has the same legitimacy as the Communist party's one.

What is wrong with Hong Kong? I hope you won't have the audacity to dismiss that the 'one country - two political systems' principle was flushed down the toilet by Beijing.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Yes, I am calling you an idiot. I understand that your arrogance fiercely protests that because you deem yourself something like a genius.
> 
> Taiwan IS China, you ignorant fool. Ever heard about the Chinese civil war of the 1940s? The Taiwanese government has the same legitimacy as the Communist party's one.
> 
> What is wrong with Hong Kong? I hope you won't have the audacity to dismiss that the 'one country - two political systems' principle was flushed down the toilet by Beijing.


Yes. Taiwan is China and none of the USG’s business what goes on there. You’d think after all the failed interventions and millions murdered by the USG war machine, you’d catch on. Somehow you think the USG must kill and destroy for the benefit of the oligarchy, which you aren’t even a part of. WTF?

Do you know when HK rejoined China?  It was a long time ago. Yet the Chinese government you hate and fear, did nothing to impose upon the people of HK for decades.

Think better!


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Yes. Taiwan is China and none of the USG’s business what goes on there. You’d think after all the failed interventions and millions murdered by the USG war machine, you’d catch on. Somehow you think the USG must kill and destroy for the benefit of the oligarchy, which you aren’t even a part of. WTF?
> 
> Do you know when HK rejoined China?  It was a long time ago. Yet the Chinese government you hate and fear, did nothing to impose upon the people of HK for decades.
> 
> Think better!


If 1997 is for you 'a long time ago' then you really have a fish's memory. Do you know what that means? The main principle of rejoining was 'one country - two political systems' that should have lasted for at least 50 years.

The Chinese government did nothing? Read about the Umbrella uprising that happened long time ago in 2014. Get some fucking clue. This all lies on the ground. 

Jesus, I have an impression of talking with an uneducated schoolboy.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> If 1997 is for you 'a long time ago' then you really have a fish's memory. Do you know what that means? The main principle of rejoining was 'one country - two political systems' that should have lasted for at least 50 years.
> 
> The Chinese government did nothing? Read about the Umbrella uprising that happened long time ago in 2014. Get some fucking clue. This all lies on the ground.
> 
> Jesus, I have an impression of talking with an uneducated schoolboy.


Dummy.

You think China is so tyrannical and authoritarian that they allowed HK autonomy for many years. How unusual? Lol. Think!

At any rate and I know you won’t listen to reason, what China does to China is not the fucking business of the USG...you warmongering oligarchy loving FOOL. 

THINK!


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Dummy.
> 
> You think China is so tyrannical and authoritarian that they allowed HK autonomy for many years. How unusual? Lol. Think!
> 
> At any rate and I know you won’t listen to reason, what China does to China is not the fucking business of the USG...you warmongering oligarchy loving FOOL.
> 
> THINK!


Idiot.

1997 - 2014 is less that 20 years, it is even far less than the Chinese autocrats pledged themselves. (Of course, no worries, it isn't virtual promises to Gorbachev).

If war mongering oligarchy supports 'good' people, I am with them.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Idiot.
> 
> 1997 - 2014 is less that 20 years, it is even far less than the Chinese autocrats pledged themselves. (Of course, no worries, it isn't virtual promises to Gorbachev).
> 
> If war mongering oligarchy supports 'good' people, I am with them.


Yeah!  Those nasty dirty commies left HK alone for nearly 20 years. Those stinking BASTARDS. 

You support mass murdering good people for the sole benefit of oligarchs, but are too dumb to know it.

Please think better.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Yeah!  Those nasty dirty commies left HK alone for nearly 20 years. Those stinking BASTARDS.
> 
> You support mass murdering good people for the sole benefit of oligarchs, but are too dumb to know it.
> 
> Please think better.


Dude, being based on how you justify Beijing's cracking down on Hong Kong's autonomy (despite signed obligations) and how you bitched about some vague promises to Gorbachev, I can make conclusions that you are:

intellectually hollow and simple-minded person, or

hypocritical bastard, or

paid troll.

The third version is the least likely for me.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Dude, being based on how you justify Beijing's cracking down on Hong Kong's autonomy (despite signed obligations) and how you bitched about some vague promises to Gorbachev, I can make conclusions that you are:
> 
> intellectually hollow and simple-minded person, or
> 
> hypocritical bastard, or
> 
> paid troll.
> 
> The third version is the least likely for me.


Lol. I’m the dummy pushing for peace. You’re the smarty pushing for war. 

Do you fail so see how dumb that is?


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Lol. I’m the dummy pushing for peace. You’re the smarty pushing for war.
> 
> Do you fail so see how dumb that is?


Yea, you are pushing for peace at the cost of oppressing other people. Too bad, not everyone understands your generosity.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Lol. I’m the dummy pushing for peace. You’re the smarty pushing for war.
> 
> Do you fail so see how dumb that is?


Russia invades Ukraine and you call those countries that object warmongers and justify the war Russia started; do you see how dumb that is?  What is the basis of your extraordinary loyalty to Putin?


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Russia invades Ukraine and you call those countries that object warmongers and justify the war Russia started; do you see how dumb that is?  What is the basis of your extraordinary loyalty to Putin?



*Thought experiment for American statist warmongers…*

_A foreign nation bordering the US experiences a coup committed by the world’s greatest superpower, overthrowing the democratically elected government that was friendly to the US. Now that government is unfriendly and wishes to align itself with the US’s biggest enemy. The world’s greatest superpower. 

Now add to this the foreign nation bordering the US is shelling a former territory of the US and killing ethnic Americans. Killing up to 14,000 American men women and children. And is now threatening to invade the territory with a large army. 

Do you think the USG should accept this?  

*DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND???*_


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> *Thought experiment for American statist warmongers…*
> 
> _A foreign nation bordering the US experiences a coup committed by the world’s greatest superpower, overthrowing the democratically elected government that was friendly to the US. Now that government is unfriendly and wishes to align itself with the US’s biggest enemy. The world’s greatest superpower.
> 
> Now add to this the foreign nation bordering the US is shelling a former territory of the US and killing ethnic Americans. Killing up to 14,000 American men women and children. And is now threatening to invade the territory with a large army.
> 
> Do you think the USG should accept this?
> 
> *DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND???*_


So here you are trying to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine while calling others warmongers.  Are you unable to see how bizarre that is?  How did you develop such blind loyalty to Putin?


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Now add to this the foreign nation bordering the US is shelling a former territory of the US and killing ethnic Americans. Killing up to 14,000 American men women and children. And is now threatening to invade the territory with a large army


I have already given you a link that this figure also includes casualties of Ukrainian military and separatist militants. Natural dishonesty?


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> I have already given you a link that this figure also includes casualties of Ukrainian military and separatist militants. Natural dishonesty?


I knew I’d blow your mind, though I’m not sure you have one. Uke!


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> So here you are trying to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine while calling others warmongers.  Are you unable to see how bizarre that is?  How did you develop such blind loyalty to Putin?


So I did blow your mind. Good.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> I knew I’d blow your mind, though I’m not sure you have one. Uke!


How did you blow my mind, Yuri? Posting the figure in the line of Russian propaganda? No worries, I didn't expect too much out of you, anyway.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> So I did blow your mind. Good.


No, everyone is used to you touting Putin propaganda.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> No, everyone is used to you touting Putin propaganda.


You confuse the truth with propaganda. Not smart.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Of course that is a ridiculous lie, but given Putin's spectacular incompetence and lawlessness, regine change is probably the only way to save Russia.


Putin didn't create the civil war in Ukraine.
The US did.
The same way the US created civil wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, $yria, etc. etc.
How many more innocent human being$ will be $acrificed on the altar of American Exceptionali$m?

Russia-Ukraine conflict: the propaganda war | MR Online

_"We must remember that in time of war what is said on the enemy’s side of the front is always propaganda, and what is said on our side of the front is truth and righteousness, the cause of humanity and a crusade for peace._

– "Walter Lippmann, cited in Shah 2005"


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> *Thought experiment for American statist warmongers…*
> 
> _A foreign nation bordering the US experiences a coup committed by the world’s greatest superpower, overthrowing the democratically elected government that was friendly to the US. Now that government is unfriendly and wishes to align itself with the US’s biggest enemy. The world’s greatest superpower.
> 
> Now add to this the foreign nation bordering the US is shelling a former territory of the US and killing ethnic Americans. Killing up to 14,000 American men women and children. And is now threatening to invade the territory with a large army.
> 
> Do you think the USG should accept this?
> 
> *DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND???*_


Since there are no too many 'American statist warmongers' who wanted to answer this quite simple question, I will offer my response.

In this story one needs to mention that the country (let's call it Mexocur) had two heavily pro-American regions, and as a whole at the moment of the coup  people in the country were devided almost equally whether to join the US-led or China-led economic and military bloc.

So, Mexocur is experiencing some sort of revolt where China establishes a friendly government. Naturally, the two heavily pro-American regions (along with some others) hold massive rallies that doesn't accept this new government. The situation is critical there and the new government wants to send military and volunteers there to show their resolve. 

What the USG should do? Send to this regions its military as a peacekeeping force and issue a demand that either Mexocur holds new state elections in six months and new regional elections in six months after them or the USG takes this regions under their protection. No annexation, no statelets. These regions remain a part of Ukraine, and the UN is invited to monitor the situation there.

Then, after six months, new president and new parliament are elected. Even if the pro-Chinese part gets their president and majority in the parliament, the pro-American part gets strong faction in the parliament and maybe even some seats in the government. 

Also, we should consider the fact that the US is the main trading partner for Mexocur, in the time of the coup. So, it imposes trade barriers for main Mexocur exports which will have impact on the economy. This will lead that the pro-Chinese government is losing its support and new pro-American government may gain the power (as it was before when the similar coup happened).

So, the second paragraph makes no sense. There are no shellings, killings, and invasions.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Since there are no too many 'American statist warmongers' who wanted to answer this quite simple question, I will offer my response.
> 
> In this story one needs to mention that the country (let's call it Mexocur) had two heavily pro-American regions, and as a whole at the moment of the coup  people in the country were devided almost equally whether to join the US-led or China-led economic and military bloc.
> 
> So, Mexocur is experiencing some sort of revolt where China establishes a friendly government. Naturally, the two heavily pro-American regions (along with some others) hold massive rallies that doesn't accept this new government. The situation is critical there and the new government wants to send military and volunteers there to show their resolve.
> 
> What the USG should do? Send to this regions its military as a peacekeeping force and issue a demand that either Mexocur holds new state elections in six months and new regional elections in six months after them or the USG takes this regions under their protection. No annexation, no statelets. These regions remain a part of Ukraine, and the UN is invited to monitor the situation there.
> 
> Then, after six months, new president and new parliament are elected. Even if the pro-Chinese part gets their president and majority in the parliament, the pro-American part gets strong faction in the parliament and maybe even some seats in the government.
> 
> Also, we should consider the fact that the US is the main trading partner for Mexocur, in the time of the coup. So, it imposes trade barriers for main Mexocur exports which will have impact on the economy. This will lead that the pro-Chinese government is losing its support and new pro-American government may gain the power (as it was before when the similar coup happened).
> 
> So, the second paragraph makes no sense. There are no shellings, killings, and invasions.


Thank you for that long post.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Thank you for that long post.


You are welcome. I hope you read it in full.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> NOPE.
> 
> NATO states are supporting Ukraine in their fight against an illegal invasion. People everywhere can understand that simple concept.
> 
> Putin is the idiot who put his regime on the line with this bloody, failed "special operation".


You aren't paying attention, or you believe everything you read/see in the western MSM reporting. 

Russia is no longer fighting Ukraine; Russia is engaged in a full-fledged proxy war with NATO, facing a NATO-style military force that is logistically sustained by NATO, trained by NATO, provided with NATO intelligence, and working seamlessly with NATO military planners:

SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains

"The Ukrainian battle plan has 'Made in Brussels' stamped all over it. 

"The force composition was determined by NATO, as was the timing of the attacks and the direction of the attacks. 

"NATO intelligence carefully located seams in the Russian defenses and identified critical command and control, logistics, and reserve concentration nodes that were targeted by Ukrainian artillery, which operates on a fire control plan created by NATO.

"In short, the Ukrainian army that Russia faced in Kherson and around Kharkov was unlike any Ukrainian opponent it had previously faced. 

*"Russia was no longer fighting a Ukrainian army equipped by NATO, but rather a NATO army manned by Ukrainians."*


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> You are welcome. I hope you read it in full.


Not a word. Sorry.

I don’t like imperialists. So nothing they say is of interest to me.


----------



## g5000

peacefan said:


> it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.


The Sudetenland is populated primarily with German speakers.  Hitler should invade Czechoslavakia.

Canada is populated primarily with English speakers.  We should invade Canada.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Not a word. Sorry.
> 
> I don’t like imperialists. So nothing they say is of interest to me.


That is okay. Some people prefer to stay in ignorance. That is the easiest way.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Unfortunately capitalism rules the world. Lots of money to be made by the oligarchs in war. Not much money in helping starving people.
> 
> The oligarchs claim to support efforts on controlling CC yet they push war, which has to be the worst thing they could do to the climate.


I wonder if it's worth asking the capitalists if oligarchs even exist in a society without war and debt?


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> That is okay. Some people prefer to stay in ignorance. That is the easiest way.


Ignorance is imperialism.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> I wonder if it's worth asking the capitalists if oligarchs even exist in a society without war and debt?


I’m not sure how’d they’d answer such question. We do know they don’t see oligarchs as a problem. So they probably wouldn’t understand the question.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Putin didn't create the civil war in Ukraine.
> The US did.
> The same way the US created civil wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, $yria, etc. etc.
> How many more innocent human being$ will be $acrificed on the altar of American Exceptionali$m?
> 
> Russia-Ukraine conflict: the propaganda war | MR Online
> 
> _"We must remember that in time of war what is said on the enemy’s side of the front is always propaganda, and what is said on our side of the front is truth and righteousness, the cause of humanity and a crusade for peace._
> 
> – "Walter Lippmann, cited in Shah 2005"


There is no civil war in Ukraine; there is a Russian invasion of Ukraine that claims there was a civil war in an effort to justify its entirely illegal invasion.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> Ignorance is imperialism.


Then you are an imperialist, for sure.


----------



## Toro

The racist revanchists will gaslight for the slaughter.









						'Mass burial site containing 440 graves' found in Izyum after city liberated by Ukrainian forces
					

The key city had been under Russian occupation for months but was recaptured amid the surging Ukrainian offensive.




					news.sky.com
				




skye 
Sunni Man


----------



## Toro

georgephillip said:


> You aren't paying attention, or you believe everything you read/see in the western MSM reporting.
> 
> Russia is no longer fighting Ukraine; Russia is engaged in a full-fledged proxy war with NATO, facing a NATO-style military force that is logistically sustained by NATO, trained by NATO, provided with NATO intelligence, and working seamlessly with NATO military planners:
> 
> SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains
> 
> "The Ukrainian battle plan has 'Made in Brussels' stamped all over it.
> 
> "The force composition was determined by NATO, as was the timing of the attacks and the direction of the attacks.
> 
> "NATO intelligence carefully located seams in the Russian defenses and identified critical command and control, logistics, and reserve concentration nodes that were targeted by Ukrainian artillery, which operates on a fire control plan created by NATO.
> 
> "In short, the Ukrainian army that Russia faced in Kherson and around Kharkov was unlike any Ukrainian opponent it had previously faced.
> 
> *"Russia was no longer fighting a Ukrainian army equipped by NATO, but rather a NATO army manned by Ukrainians."*



The far left and the far right are for Russia and against the West and freedom.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Then you are an imperialist, for sure.



I looked up the definition of imperialist to help you out, and look what I found…
[IMG alt="ESay"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/l/53/53973.jpg?1624675376[/IMG]


----------



## georgephillip

alexa said:


> Zelensky originally did not want war and it was not Russia who turned him into the zealot he became it was one or more of the Far Right Nationalist groups. He wanted them to stop fighting Russia so that he could get mark 2 of that agreement through and they told him he and his family would be dead before they stopped.


Zelensky's election was at least partially due to his support for the Steinmeier Formula which called for elections in the Russian-speaking areas of Donetsk and Lugansk.




Ukraine's white supremacists refused to allow those elections to take place.

How Ukraine's Jewish president Zelensky made peace with neo-Nazi paramilitaries on front lines of war with Russia - The Grayzone

"Back in October 2019, as the war in eastern Ukraine dragged on, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky traveled to Zolote, a town situated firmly in the 'gray zone' of Donbas, where over 14,000 had been killed, mostly on the pro-Russian side. 

"There, the president encountered the hardened veterans of extreme right paramilitary units keeping up the fight against separatists just a few miles away.

"Elected on a platform of de-escalation of hostilities with Russia, Zelensky was determined to enforce the so-called *Steinmeier Formula conceived by then-German Foreign Minister Walter Steinmeier which called for elections in the Russian-speaking regions of Donetsk and Lugansk.*

"In a face-to-face confrontation with militants from the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion who had launched a campaign to sabotage the peace initiative called 'No to Capitulation,' Zelensky encountered a wall of obstinacy.

"With appeals for disengagement from the frontlines firmly rejected, Zelensky melted down on camera. 'I’m the president of this country. I’m 41 years old. I’m not a loser. I came to you and told you: remove the weapons,' Zelensky implored the fighters..."

"Andriy Biletsky, the proudly fascist Azov Battalion leader who once pledged to *“lead the white races of the world in a final crusade…against Semite-led Untermenschen'*, vowed to bring thousands of fighters to Zolote if Zelensky pressed any further. 

"Meanwhile, a parliamentarian from the party of former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko openly fantasized about Zelensky being blown to bits by a militant’s grenade."


----------



## georgephillip

Toro said:


> The far left and the far right are for Russia and against the West and freedom.


The only freedom the US has ever been concerned with is the freedom to profit from wars the richest parasites never fight in. 

Ukrainians are being told to fight to the last drop of blood so American capitalists can profit from regime change in Russia (again)




Confidence in Democracy and Capitalism Wanes in Former Soviet Union


----------



## Toro




----------



## georgephillip

Redfish said:


> so the rich are the problem? have you told the hollywood loonies and the rap music porno fiends?


*I see those rich parasites as less of a threat to democracy than some of our corporate citizens pose:*

JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley and Wells Fargo Flunk a Test Measuring their Support for American Democracy

"The nonpartisan watchdog group, Accountable.US, has released the results of an investigation into how committed to democracy the 100 largest corporations in America are. 

"The corporations were graded on support for voting rights, the electoral process, and American democracy. 

"The results were provided in an interactive resource called the American Democracy Scorecard..."

"Three of the largest mega banks on Wall Street, JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, and Wells Fargo, flunked the democracy test, each receiving a score of 'F.' 

"Goldman Sachs received a 'D.' 

"Bank of America and Citigroup received a 'B' grade, but, clearly, that was based on very recent history."


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Conflict in Dombas obviously had little to do with what language people spoke, and everything to do with Russia arming *SEPARATISTS *who refused Ukranian sovereignty.


The conflict in Donbass had more to do with right-wing, neo-Nazis from western Ukraine killing thousands of Russian speakers for objecting to an illegal coup which drove a duly elected president from office by murdering police officers.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Again, this nonsense doesn't become any less stupid with repetition.


Because reality is not nonsense.
It's only your stupidity that's becoming repetitious.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> Because reality is not nonsense.
> It's only your stupidity that's becoming repetitious.


Reality is exactly what's missing from your posts.


----------



## gipper

Toro said:


> The far left and the far right are for Russia and against the West and freedom.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Russia is no longer fighting Ukraine;


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


>


Dumb!


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> The conflict in Donbass had more to do with right-wing, neo-Nazis from western Ukraine killing thousands of Russian speakers


How many Russian speakers were killed in Kiev or Kherson, where 50-60% of people speak Russian?


----------



## gipper

Toro said:


> The far left and the far right are for Russia and against the West and freedom.


Fascist!


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> No, everyone is used to you touting Putin propaganda.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> How many Russian speakers were killed in Kiev or Kherson, where 50-60% of people speak Russian?


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> *I see those rich parasites as less of a threat to democracy than some of our corporate citizens pose:*
> 
> JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley and Wells Fargo Flunk a Test Measuring their Support for American Democracy
> 
> "The nonpartisan watchdog group, Accountable.US, has released the results of an investigation into how committed to democracy the 100 largest corporations in America are.
> 
> "The corporations were graded on support for voting rights, the electoral process, and American democracy.
> 
> "The results were provided in an interactive resource called the American Democracy Scorecard..."
> 
> "Three of the largest mega banks on Wall Street, JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, and Wells Fargo, flunked the democracy test, each receiving a score of 'F.'
> 
> "Goldman Sachs received a 'D.'
> 
> "Bank of America and Citigroup received a 'B' grade, but, clearly, that was based on very recent history."


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


>


Behold the Nazis  











You are seriously out of your fucking mind.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


>


So once again you find it impossible to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine so you want to change the subject.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> So once again you find it impossible to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine so you want to change the subject.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> How many Russian speakers were killed in Kiev or Kherson, where 50-60% of people speak Russian?


Ouch!


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Yep, now we have new special rules of annexation of other countries.
> 
> I guess America has a right to annex parts of Canada if Quebeq gets into despute with Ontario. It's on the common border, so it's totally ok.


Where's the threat to US borders from a hostile foreign military alliance?


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Only a total moron would complain about a leader of a relatively poor country declaring it open for bussiness.
> 
> I know commies like you have trouble grasping just how insane you look when you do that.


Zelensky plans to open Ukraine for business the same way Yeltsin opened Russia thirty years ago; do you know how that turned out? The corrupt US puppet in Kiev will cut labor laws, privatize the common natural resources, and eliminate tariffs and subsidies. 

West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections - Multipolarista

"The Ukraine Reform Conference listed as one of its 'achievements' the adoption of a law in January 2018 titled “On Privatization of State and Municipal Property,” which it noted 'simplifies the procedure of privatization.'

"While the URC enthusiastically pushed for these neoliberal reforms, it acknowledged that they were very unpopular among actual Ukrainians. 

"A poll found that just 12.4% supported privatization of state-owned enterprises (SOE), whereas 49.9% opposed it. (An additional 12% were indifferent, whereas 25.7% had no answer.)"


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Yep, idiot communist thinks privatization and deregulation are dirty words.


Because they are to anyone who isn't a mindless dupe of rich parasites.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Ouch!


Thats right dummy, deflections is all you have.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Because they are to anyone


No they aren't crazy bags.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Did you just seriously parrot that while Ukraine is blitzing through front lines RIGHT NOW, using western hardware, knocking Russians the fuck out of entire Kharkiv oblast and taking Izium?


How many casualties did Ukraine take in their latest "counter-offensive"?
Russia withdrew to bolster their assault on Bakhmut.

Ukraine sliding into a real war - Indian Punchline


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> It’s the way of neoliberal capitalists.


How many millions have capitalists killed over the past three centuries?


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> How many casualties did Ukraine take in their latest "counter-offensive"?
> Russia withdrew to bolster their assault on Bakhmut.
> Ukraine sliding into a real war - Indian Punchline



Even Russian propagandists on state TV acknowledge a serious setback in their Ukranian adventures.

You are a fucking joke.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> How many millions have capitalists killed over the past three centuries?


An untold number.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> War has become a policy promoted and enacted throughout our government, media, and economy. We have become a militaristic imperialist nation. Of course this has been true for a long time, but has gotten progressively worse.


Most Americans (including many recent white-skinned immigrants) are in denial about the role imperialism has played in US standards of living. In fact, most Americans would be hard-pressed to define the term.

Encyclopedia _Britannica_ has this interpretation:

The US Empire Is Crumbling Before Our Eyes

"According to the _Encyclopedia_, 'imperialism' denotes 'state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or *by gaining political and economic control of other areas.*' 

"Furthermore, imperialism 'always involves the use of power, whether military or economic or some subtler form.' 

*"In other words, the word indicates a country’s attempts to control and reap economic benefit from lands outside its borders."*

Since 1971 US Treasuries have functioned in much the same way as the gold standard. The last thirty years of American arrogance and indifference to the rule of law is convincing many countries to rethink their reliance on the US dollar as a global reserve currency.

If enough countries dump the dollar, it will become impossible for the US to continue reaping economic benefits from lands outside its borders, and all the violence and misery the US has rained down on people across the globe will come home to roost.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> I looked up the definition of imperialist to help you out, and look what I found…
> [IMG alt="ESay"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/l/53/53973.jpg?1624675376[/IMG]


Definition? In a dictionary? Don't try to use that complex material anymore. Try to 'read' books with pictures.


----------



## gipper

ESay said:


> Definition? In a dictionary? Don't try to use that complex material anymore. Try to 'read' books with pictures.


But I was desperately trying to get down to your level. Uke.


----------



## ESay

gipper said:


> But I was desperately trying to get down to your level. Uke.


As usual, you were moving in the opposite direction, Yuri.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> You failed the course.  Get a bucket and start cleaning out the bathrooms.


You're bathroom is a bucket, Bandera.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d4b1e0-a503-4f73-aaa7-5dd5d6a1c665_story.html


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> You know they’ll never understand the truth.


Up until 60 minutes ago I would have agreed, but I've been listening to Scott Ritter talk about upcoming war crimes trials in Russia with Azov defendants.  According to Scott the Nazis were religious about documenting their rapes, murders, torture sessions in Mariupol on their cell phones which the Russians now possess. I know it's a long shot, but with the Internet...who knows?


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> So NATO, which has NEVER touched any Russian border needed Ukraine to kill Russians....so Russians had to "defensively" invade and bomb the shit out of Ukraine...so that NATO finally arms Ukraine to the teeth and they could finally kill alot of Russians (~40,000 invaders and counting), embarass the shit out of "worlds 2nd best army" and send Russian economy back to the 90's.
> 
> Who could ever possibly think that Putin DIDN'T have to get Russia into this bloody clusterfuck?


Can't find any NATO-Russia borders?




NATO has armed Ukraine to the teeth in order to promote regime change in Moscow; there will be regime change in Paris, Berlin, and DC long before any comes to Russia.


----------



## georgephillip

alexa said:


> 9/11 changed the world.  It is interesting to remember simple things like how if some country or situation was acting aggressively, certainly in the UK, we would ask why they were doing it.  You can't sort anything out if you do not know what is going on. That totally ended with 9/11.  They were evil and had to be destroyed.  I don't think, apart from crazies in NI I had even heard the word 'evil' used in the UK but just one day after 9/11 Tony Blair used it and that was the change pretty much done except it took a few days in the US and a few months, maybe years in the UK for many people to stop trying to work out what motivated 9/11 apart from 'jealousy'!
> 
> 9/11 changed what was a West developing psychological maturity to one with no ability to self reflect.  One where having empathy is considered a gross flaw.
> 
> Bin Laden believed this would happen.  He has been shown to have been correct and hence, he won.


Until someone provides a credible explanation for how two commercial aircraft collapsed three steel-framed skyscrapers into their own footprints, bin Laden's winning streak will never be broken, imho.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> One would think most Americans would be noninterventionists or isolationists, after decades of failures by the military industrial complex. From Vietnam to Afghanistan, all we have to show is death and destruction. Trillions wasted on foreign wars should inform Americans, but somehow it doesn’t.


Americans seem to cherish their martial legacy especially when it involves the mass destruction of non-White people, but we don't seem to process the occasional defeat very well

The Chris Hedges Report: The monstrous myth of Custer

"The playwright Eugene O’Neill said that one of the few events worth celebrating in American history took place on June 25, 1876, when Lakota, Northern Cheyenne, and Arapaho, led by Crazy Horse and Chief Gall, annihilated a unit of the 7th Cavalry under the command of Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer."


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Well since you fancy yourself the expert, would you please tell ME what I AM on American political spectrum.


I would guess you qualify as a neoliberal "New Democrat" in the mold of Clinton, Obama, and Biden.




Since all economies are planned economies, do you prefer democratic or corporate planning?


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Laughing my ass off at your pathetic excuses for Putin's giant failures. Thanks.


What's the latest from Bakhmut?




Wagner Group?


----------



## georgephillip

alexa said:


> Yes, I noticed that the US was demanding they embrace Neo Liberalism if they wanted US help.  Does seem like it is true.  Right now money is all that matters...and Ukraine should not have allowed them to buy up their farmland.  They are buying up all farmland they can get together with their rights to a lot of people's water.  Absolutely essential things.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Doing what? Efficiently grow food and distribute it for profit?
> 
> Sounds kinda evil. Lets have government do that, it's what it does best after all


When you distribute food for a profit, what happens to those who can't afford the price; do they starve? Do their children starve? Food and water are human rights, and any moral distribution should be based on need not profit.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Self serving Russian claims unsupported by any of the many other journalists who were there.


Why don't you provide a few examples of any "unsupported Russian claims"?

War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Still more crazy talk from you.  Russia is being beaten by a tactically superior Ukrainian army with 16 Himars.


Where's your evidence for that fantasy.
Which one of those 16 Himars fired on  Zaporizhzhia?


----------



## para bellum

georgephillip said:


> What's the latest from Bakhmut?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wagner Group?


It has not changed in any substantial way around Bakhmut since July 27 when your map was made.

The area north of Bakhmut has changed recently, with Ukraine taking back positions north of the S-D and fighting in Lyman.

The idea that Russia abandoned Izium, all the land west of the Oskil and up to the Russian border, and the entire supply line to the northern Donbas forces just to reinforce the attempt to advance in Bakhmut is pretty imaginative, to put it mildly.

The Ru forces that were routed from the Izium area abandoned hundreds of pieces of equipment, and the UA captured some very large ammunition stockpiles. Probably in the neighborhood of a million 152mm shells, and a couple hundred armored vehicles were captured intact. An equal amount destroyed.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> and the Russian attempt to capture Kyiv failed because the Ukrainian army targeted Russian supply lines so effectively that front line soldiers ran low on food, fuel and ammunition


You still haven't explained how a Russian force of 40,000 men could capture a city of three million civilians defended by 60,000 armed military and paramilitary fighters.

Kyiv was a fixing operation designed to prevent Ukrainian forces from reinforcing Donbass.

What's the latest news from Bakhmut?

Battle of Bakhmut - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> The Ru forces that were routed from the Izium area abandoned hundreds of pieces of equipment, and the UA captured some very large ammunition stockpiles. Probably in the neighborhood of a million 152mm shells, and a couple hundred armored vehicles were captured intact. An equal amount destroyed.


Who told you that?


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> Next, the tactically superior Ukrainian forces recognized the Russian invasion force was far too small to hold on to the area it controlled near the border and manipulated the Russian command to move forces from the north and east to bolster defenses in the south and Ukrainian forces easily broke through the weakened Russian lines in the north and are still driving the Russian army back into Russia


You left out NATO's contribution to Ukraine's alleged tactical superiority:

Scott Ritter: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine’s Gains

"These are the forces that have been committed to the current fighting. Russia finds itself in a full-fledged proxy war with NATO, facing a NATO-style military force that is being logistically sustained by NATO, trained by NATO, provided with NATO intelligence, and working in harmony with NATO military planners.

"What this means is that the current Ukrainian counteroffensive should not be viewed as an extension of the phase two battle, but rather the initiation of a new third phase *which is not a Ukrainian-Russian conflict, but a NATO-Russian conflict."*


----------



## para bellum

georgephillip said:


> Who told you that?


It's open source documented losses. You would know about it if you got out of the Russian propaganda echo chamber. You can start here:

(you can scroll these twitter threads without logging in. When it prompts you, click the login button, then just close the window, it will return you to the thread)



			https://twitter.com/UAWeapons
		





			https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical
		


Oryx has a good list of losses on both sides. They capture about 70%.









						Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The 2022 Russian Invasion Of Ukraine
					






					www.oryxspioenkop.com


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> No they aren't crazy bags.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> View attachment 697580


What a genuinely stupid and profoundly dishonest thing to say.  Everyone hates colonoscopies and chemo therapy, but everyone does them when necessary to prevent a greater evil, so it was in WWII to stop Hitler and in the Cold War to stop Stalin, etc. and in Ukraine to stop Putin.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> What a genuinely stupid and profoundly dishonest thing to say.  Everyone hates colonoscopies and chemo therapy, but everyone does them when necessary to prevent a greater evil, so it was in WWII to stop Hitler and in the Cold War to stop Stalin, etc. and in Ukraine to stop Putin.


Lol. You prove once again to be completely uninformed.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Cool story Boris, but it was Putin's invasion of Ukraine that directly enlarged NATO to include Sweden and Finland.
> 
> Smart, real smart.


Wrong again, Trump.
NATO's losses and gains will depend on how many Europeans freeze to death this winter thanks to the US proxy war against Russia.

Turkey is tired, and if it leaves NATO...

"According to the author of the article, Mehmet Ali Guler, *Ankara should close the Black Sea, the Caucasus and the western gates of Central Asia to the United States and become part of the great Eurasian partnership.*

"'*Turkey should sever ties with NATO*,' the author is convinced, as reported by Sputnik."


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> Idiot, ethnic and regional conflicts in this part of Europe go back for centuries. And that 'Nazi backstory' is just one part of it that happened much later, despite what Russian propaganda feeds you. Read about the Khmelnytsky uprising and Koliivshchyna as examples. But of course you won't. You are too simple minded for that.


Regale us with the extent of your knowledge about the OUN's, Stepan Bandera's, and Yaroslav Stetsko's contribution to Ukrainian Democracy, Troll.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> Exactly. This brutal war in Ukraine is like most wars and interventions the USG has been involved in. Its an old story repeated many times, yet few Americans can see it.
> 
> I suspect Taiwan would make an excellent choice for destruction, by the USG and oligarchs who control it.


Perhaps China's nuclear deterrence works against US aggression in Taiwan?
I think Africa might be the "low hanging fruit" for US capitalists today:

What U.S. imperialism is up to in Africa while no one’s watching

"The Horn of Africa consists of eight countries: Uganda, Sudan, South Sudan, Kenya, Eritrea, Djibouti, Ethiopia, and Somalia. 




"These countries are victims of international interventions and interference that is causing extreme destabilization in the region, from Djibouti and Eritrea to Somalia and Ethiopia. 

"*Western imperialists continue to support dictators and block any attempt at independence, while the Western-backed Gulf States are transforming the region into a battlefield against not only Iran but each other."*


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> View attachment 697580


Ha! You obviously have zero self-awareness. That write up is *ABOUT YOU*.

If you were seriously anti-war you'd support backing Ukraine against Russian agression, you would support maintaning international order that ensures stability and teaching imperialist wanna-bees like Putin what awaits them in their next baseless invasion.

Instead you have this naive, stupid idea that if only we let him roll over enough people Putin he will stop invading other countries.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> I’m not sure how’d they’d answer such question. We do know they don’t see oligarchs as a problem. So they probably wouldn’t understand the question.


I grew up in the US under Cold War propaganda that went by the acronym MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) That meant rich Americans would die along with middle class and poor Americans if nuclear weapons were ever used. Theoretically, MAD could be fine-tuned so that the richest one percent of citizens on all sides of any future conflicts would be the first to die; should any such technology occur, war would end yesterday.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> There is no civil war in Ukraine; there is a Russian invasion of Ukraine that claims there was a civil war in an effort to justify its entirely illegal invasion.


The civil war began in 2014 after the US instigated an illegal coup spearheaded by far-right neo-Nazis that drove a duly elected president from office.

War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia

"April 2014: conflict begins[edit]​"On 12 April, unmarked pro-Russian militants led by FSB agent Igor Girkin seized the Donetsk city office of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and two other police offices in the oblast, although they were repelled after an assault on the general prosecutor's office and failed to take a police office in the city of Shakhtarsk.[81] 

"Following negotiations between the militants and those in the building, the chief of the office resigned from his post.[81][82] 

"Officers from the Berkut special police force, which had been dissolved by the government following the February revolution, took part in the seizure on the separatists' side.[83] 

"After gaining control of the Donetsk RSA and declaring the Donetsk People's Republic, pro-Russian groups vowed to fan out and take control of strategic infrastructure across Donetsk Oblast, and demanded that public officials who wished to continue their work swear allegiance to the Republic.[84]"


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> The civil war began in 2014 after the US instigated an illegal coup spearheaded by far-right neo-Nazis that drove a duly elected president from office.
> 
> War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia
> 
> "April 2014: conflict begins[edit]​"On 12 April, unmarked pro-Russian militants led by FSB agent Igor Girkin seized the Donetsk city office of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and two other police offices in the oblast, although they were repelled after an assault on the general prosecutor's office and failed to take a police office in the city of Shakhtarsk.[81]
> 
> "Following negotiations between the militants and those in the building, the chief of the office resigned from his post.[81][82]
> 
> "Officers from the Berkut special police force, which had been dissolved by the government following the February revolution, took part in the seizure on the separatists' side.[83]
> 
> "After gaining control of the Donetsk RSA and declaring the Donetsk People's Republic, pro-Russian groups vowed to fan out and take control of strategic infrastructure across Donetsk Oblast, and demanded that public officials who wished to continue their work swear allegiance to the Republic.[84]"


You are repeating exactly what I said, there was no  civil war until Russia formed these militia and sent them to provide a pretext for the invasion.


----------



## ESay

georgephillip said:


> Regale us with the extent of your knowledge about the OUN's, Stepan Bandera's, and Yaroslav Stetsko's contribution to Ukrainian Democracy, Troll.


Their ideology doesn't coincide with the term 'democracy'. Their ideal was a 'national' Ukrainian state with a strong vertical of power.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Ha! You obviously have zero self-awareness. That write up is *ABOUT YOU*.
> 
> If you were seriously anti-war you'd support backing Ukraine against Russian agression, you would support maintaning international order that ensures stability and teaching imperialist wanna-bees like Putin what awaits them in their next baseless invasion.
> 
> Instead you have this naive, stupid idea that if only we let him roll over enough people Putin he will stop invading other countries.


Lol. You don’t understand the meaning of anti-war. Not surprised. 

You support this war.  I don’t. See the difference?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol. You don’t understand the meaning of anti-war. Not surprised.
> 
> You support this war.  I don’t. See the difference?



Moron, you think I support Russia'a invasion of Ukraine?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Moron, you think I support Russian invasion?


Moron you think I do?  Think. Think.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Moron you think I do?  Think. Think.



It doesn't matter what you support or don't support. You can't tell up from down and are too fucking stupid to understand what your ideas add up to supporting.

Usefully idiots like you is exactly what would enable the next Russian invasion if you had your way.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Moron you think I do?  Think. Think.


Think?  You don't think, you just parrot Putin propaganda.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> It doesn't matter what you support or don't support. You can't tell up from down and are too fucking stupid to understand what your ideas add up to supporting.
> 
> Usefully idiots like you is exactly what would enable the next Russian invasion if you had your way.


Lol. You are a warmonger and think you can lecture me. Lol. 

You’ve been told repeatedly why this war started and how it could have been easily avoided, yet you cling to the immature belief it’s all Russia’s doing. 

You support Ukraine fighting to the last Ukrainian. WARMONGER


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Think?  You don't think, you just parrot Putin propaganda.


You parrot the establishment media and USG. LOL. Known liars. Just like you.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> You parrot the establishment media and USG. LOL. Known liars. Just like you.


Which establishment media?  Russia has a state controlled establishment media, but free countries don't.  Your extraordinary loyalty to Putin propaganda is noted once again.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Lol. You are a warmonger and think you can lecture me. Lol.
> 
> You’ve been told repeatedly why this war started and how it could have been easily avoided, yet you cling to the immature belief it’s all Russia’s doing.
> 
> You support Ukraine fighting to the last Ukrainian. WARMONGER


Yes, you have repeated Putin's propaganda about how the war started over and over again, and because of your extraordinary loyalty to Putin, you dare not question it, but we all know the war started because Putin wanted to control Ukraine and was stupid enough to think he could frighten the Ukrainians into surrendering by sending some tanks toward Kyiv.  The war was started because Putin is an arrogant, incompetent fool who has led Russia to its destruction.  

China and India have told Putin he must end this war but he will continue this war until the last Russian soldiers lies dead in the snow of Ukraine and the Russia economy is destroyed and republics that make up the Russian Federation, seeing how weak Russia is, break away, but he will continue to be your hero.


----------



## Toro

toomuchtime_ said:


> Yes, you have repeated Putin's propaganda about how the war started over and over again, and because of your extraordinary loyalty to Putin, you dare not question it, but we all know the war started because Putin wanted to control Ukraine and was stupid enough to think he could frighten the Ukrainians into surrendering by sending some tanks toward Kyiv.  The war was started because Putin is an arrogant, incompetent fool who has led Russia to its destruction.
> 
> China and India have told Putin he must end this war but he will continue this war until the last Russian soldiers lies dead in the snow of Ukraine and the Russia economy is destroyed and republics that make up the Russian Federation, seeing how weak Russia is, break away, but he will continue to be your hero.



Here's the thing you have to know about the anti-American giptard


----------



## Toro

AntonToo said:


> Ha! You obviously have zero self-awareness. That write up is *ABOUT YOU*.
> 
> If you were seriously anti-war you'd support backing Ukraine against Russian agression, you would support maintaning international order that ensures stability and teaching imperialist wanna-bees like Putin what awaits them in their next baseless invasion.
> 
> Instead you have this naive, stupid idea that if only we let him roll over enough people Putin he will stop invading other countries.



Anti-American tankies always blame America first.

Always have, always will.  

Because they hate America.


----------



## Toro

georgephillip said:


> How many casualties did Ukraine take in their latest "counter-offensive"?
> Russia withdrew to bolster their assault on Bakhmut.
> 
> Ukraine sliding into a real war - Indian Punchline



Keep sucking in that Russian propaganda, anti-American stooge.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> You’ve been told repeatedly why this war started and how it could have been easily avoided, yet you cling to the immature belief it’s all Russia’s doing.


It doesn't matter how many times you repeat rediculous bullshit, it's still just bullshit.

There was never any emminent threat from Ukraine to Russia and they haze ZERO legitimate claim to any Ukranian lands *PERIOD*.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> How many Russian speakers were killed in Kiev or Kherson, where 50-60% of people speak Russian?


Whatever happened in Kiev or Kherson, thousands of Russian-speakers were killed in the east after 2014




https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-languages-in-Ukraine-UCIPR-2017-5_fig1_339123875


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Whatever happened in Kiev or Kherson, thousands of Russian-speakers were killed in the east after 2014


Dummy, it's not "whatever" it has directly to do with an obviously bullshit claim that eastern conflict was based on what language people spoke.

If Russian speakers were really being killed in Ukraine just for speaking Russian, then we would see that all over Ukraine. Instead the conflict was ONLY in areas under controll of Russian backed *SEPARATISTS*, who refused Ukranian federal authority and were THE cause for conflict.

Like any country, Ukraine has a LEGITIMATE RIGHT to enforce it's borders. Like any country has a right to put down armed rebellions and separatists. Russia had ZERO legitimacy in annexing Ukranian Crimea and ZERO legitimacy in it's invasion.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


>


The US has always had a peculiar interpretation of crimes against humanity:
Since the demise of the USSR, we don't even try to hide the farce. 

Noam Chomsky: How the US "Politically Vulgarizes" Genocide and War Crimes

"We could, for example, listen to Justice Robert Jackson — the chief prosecutor of Nuremberg — his injunction to the tribunal. He spoke to the tribunal and said: _We have to recognize that crimes are crimes whether they commit them or we commit them. We are handing these defendants, he said, a poisoned chalice, and if we sip from it, we must be subject to the same conditions. If not, the whole trial is a farce.

"Is that applied when Britain and the United States invaded Iraq? 

"It is a textbook example of aggression with absolutely no justification, [a] textbook example of what the Nuremberg tribunal called the 'supreme international crime,' which differs from other war crimes in that it includes all of the evil that follows. 

"For example, the rise of ISIS [also known as Daesh] and the death of millions of people, includes all of that. 

"Can you find any commentary in the United States even calling [the US-UK invasion] a crime?"_


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> No they aren't crazy bags.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Even Russian propagandists on state TV acknowledge a serious setback in their Ukranian adventures.
> 
> You are a fucking joke.


Ukraine won a battle.
It is still losing the war, and nothing will change that except regime change in Kyiv.

SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains

"The successful Ukrainian counteroffensive needs to be put into a proper perspective. 

*"The casualties Ukraine suffered, and is still suffering, to achieve this victory are unsustainable. *

"Ukraine has exhausted its strategic reserves, and they will have to be reconstituted if Ukraine were to have any aspirations of continuing an advance along these lines. This will take months.

"Russia, meanwhile, has lost nothing more than some indefensible space. 

"Russian casualties were minimal, and equipment losses readily replaced."


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> An untold number.


War and debt are parts of capitalism's DNA.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> It doesn't matter how many times you repeat rediculous bullshit, it's still just bullshit.
> 
> There was never any emminent threat from Ukraine to Russia and they haze ZERO legitimate claim to any Ukranian lands *PERIOD*.


See?  More delusional thinking. We’ll never find common ground if you continue to post delusional bull shit.


----------



## alexa

georgephillip said:


> Up until 60 minutes ago I would have agreed, but I've been listening to Scott Ritter talk about upcoming war crimes trials in Russia with Azov defendants.  According to Scott the Nazis were religious about documenting their rapes, murders, torture sessions in Mariupol on their cell phones which the Russians now possess. I know it's a long shot, but with the Internet...who knows?


More possibly a good thing for coming to agreements.  If US/Ukraine wants Russia to keep quiet about it - or if Ukraine/US does not want them killed.  It's a very good bargaining chip.


----------



## AlexanderPK

toomuchtime_ said:


> Which establishment media?  Russia has a state controlled establishment media, but free countries don't.  Your extraordinary loyalty to Putin propaganda is noted once again.


Heard of the cancel culture? _Joanne Rowling _dared to whisper something about as trivial as not permitting trans-weirdos into girly bathrooms and almost got free-speeched to oblivion so bad that it took her a lot of bootlicking, self-chastising and Russia bashing to get back into the limelight. I take it you mean British Bulshitting Corporation and CNN when talking about free media, aren't you? You are free to say anything as long as it's anti Russian and maybe Chinese, otherwise you gonna get canceled some way or another. Anti Trumpisms are also allowed I guess.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Ukraine won a battle.
> It is still losing the war, and nothing will change that except regime change in Kyiv.
> 
> SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains
> 
> "The successful Ukrainian counteroffensive needs to be put into a proper perspective.
> 
> *"The casualties Ukraine suffered, and is still suffering, to achieve this victory are unsustainable. *
> 
> "Ukraine has exhausted its strategic reserves, and they will have to be reconstituted if Ukraine were to have any aspirations of continuing an advance along these lines. This will take months.
> 
> "Russia, meanwhile, has lost nothing more than some indefensible space.
> 
> "Russian casualties were minimal, and equipment losses readily replaced."



Moron, Rick Scott has been a pathetic Russian shill since his ass got convicted for pedophilia.

His "analysis" is worth fuck all as anyone who kept track of his war predictions of grand Russian victory well knows.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Moron, Rick Scott has been a pathetic Russian shill since his ass got convicted for pedophilia.
> 
> His "analysis" is worth fuck all as anyone who kept track of his war predictions of grand Russian victory well knows.


Wasn't that Sleepy Joe who dabbled in philia? You got it all mixed up Anton and what's with the Russian monicker for fuck's sake? You're not worthy of one.


----------



## AlexanderPK

"This war will go down in history as ..." 
What's not right with that, dimwit? It's exactly what will come of this anti NATO compagne.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Wasn't that Sleepy Joe who dabbled in philia? You got it all mixed up Anton and what's with the Russian monicker for fuck's sake? You're not worthy of one.



Joe Biden has never had any serious pedophilia charges, let alone convictions.

Bullshit. It's all you know.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Joe Biden has never had any serious pedophilia charges, let alone convictions.
> 
> Bullshit. It's all you know.


Serious? So minors only, got it.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Serious? So minors only, got it.



Pathetic.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Pathetic.


What pathetic, shit for brains? Your president? You're right there indeed.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> What pathetic, shit for brains? Your president? You're right there indeed.



Your petty bullshit, that's what is pathetic.

We weren't even talking about Biden and there is no serious evidence any of that is true about Biden, you just want it to be true and so you say it, because you have nothing else to say


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> "This war will go down in history as ..."
> What's not right with that, dimwit? It's exactly what will come of this anti NATO compagne.



Russia got embarrassed in this war. Everyone was expecting them to roll over weak Ukraine. True or false?

NATO has expanded as direct result of this invasion. True or false?


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Russia got embarrassed in this war. Everyone was expecting them to roll over weak Ukraine. True or false?
> 
> NATO has expanded as direct result of this invasion. True or false?


You bastard accused Scott Ritter of pedophilia, did that bullshit have anything to do with the subject matter? Reality and CNN talking in your gullible head are two incompatible things so we'll count chickens when they are hatched.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> You bastard accused Scott Ritter of pedophilia, did that bullshit have anything to do with the subject matter? Reality and CNN talking in your gullible head are two incompatible things so we'll count chickens when they are hatched.



Dumbass he was CONVICTED of pedophilia in a court of law and just so happens, became Kremlin's cheerleader #1 after that.

I don't know if they got him by the balls, or that's the only jobs he can get nowadays, but his bias is off the charts silly.

Anyone quoting Rick has to be desparate for confirmation bias.


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> It has not changed in any substantial way around Bakhmut since July 27 when your map was made.
> 
> The area north of Bakhmut has changed recently, with Ukraine taking back positions north of the S-D and fighting in Lyman.
> 
> The idea that Russia abandoned Izium, all the land west of the Oskil and up to the Russian border, and the entire supply line to the northern Donbas forces just to reinforce the attempt to advance in Bakhmut is pretty imaginative, to put it mildly.
> 
> The Ru forces that were routed from the Izium area abandoned hundreds of pieces of equipment, and the UA captured some very large ammunition stockpiles. Probably in the neighborhood of a million 152mm shells, and a couple hundred armored vehicles were captured intact. An equal amount destroyed.
> 
> View attachment 697288








"The streets are nearly empty in Bakhmut, Ukraine on Sept. 14, 2022. Despite Ukraine's recent advances in the northeastern front, Russian troops have inched closer to Bakhmut, a city in the Donetsk region of Ukraine with a prewar population of 70,000 people."

"BAKHMUT, Ukraine — The steady rattle of machine-gun fire resonated across the outskirts of the eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut on Saturday morning. 

"The sound, interspersed with the shriek of rockets and mortar fire, indicated one thing: The Russian troops were getting closer.

Russia continues attack despite recent setbacks

"Bakhmut, a city with a prewar population of 70,000, is critical to Russia’s objective of taking the rest of the mineral-rich Donbas region. 

"When Russian forces captured the industrial city of Lysychansk in early July and cemented their control of Luhansk, *one of two provinces in the Donbas, Bakhmut soon became the focus of Russia’s slow advance."*


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> What a genuinely stupid and profoundly dishonest thing to say.  Everyone hates colonoscopies and chemo therapy, but everyone does them when necessary to prevent a greater evil, so it was in WWII to stop Hitler and in the Cold War to stop Stalin, etc. and in Ukraine to stop Putin.


WWII became inevitable when the US government required loan repayments form its WWI allies; prior to that time, debts between allies were forgiven at the end of hostilities.

Harry Truman started the Cold War when he denied Korea and Greece the right to free elections in 1945 because local communists would have likely won overwhelming victories against Axis collaborators.

The US is the only country on this planets that has killed, maimed, and displaced millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland over the past 75 years; a fact you seem to have a big problem accepting.


----------



## para bellum

georgephillip said:


> "Bakhmut, a city with a prewar population of 70,000, is critical to Russia’s objective of taking the rest of the mineral-rich Donbas region.
> 
> "When Russian forces captured the industrial city of Lysychansk in early July and cemented their control of Luhansk, *one of two provinces in the Donbas, Bakhmut soon became the focus of Russia’s slow advance."*


This was true when Russia still held Izium. Izium was the logistics hub for the northern axis of the Donbas front. The forces from Popasna were the southern axis. The Izium group would move south/east and take Sloviansk and Kramatorsk, and the Popasna group would advance through Bakhmut and move up the highway to meet up with the Izium group and thereby secure at least the major cities of Donestk Oblast.

The loss of Izium and the northern supply routes makes all that irrelevant. Bakhmut no longer has any strategic significance. It makes no military sense to continue frontal assaults at Bakhmut while Ukraine is making advances to the north. The Russians should be shoring up defensive positions around the current line of contact, and move what reserves they can muster from Bakhmut up to support Lysychansk-Lyman. Ukraine appears poised to take Lyman and Kreminna, and put Lysychansk and SDonetsk under siege.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Dumbass he was CONVICTED of pedophilia in a court of law and just so happens, became Kremlin's cheerleader #1 after that.
> 
> I don't know if they got him by the balls, or that's the only jobs he can get nowadays, but his bias is off the charts silly.
> 
> Anyone quoting Rick has to be desparate for confirmation bias.


But when the rubber meets the road and it's
time to oppose war and push for peace, those
who'd previously proclaimed themselves
"anti-war" are on the other side screaming for
more weapons to be poured into a proxy war
that their government deliberately provoked.

WARMONGER!


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> But when the rubber meets the road and it's
> time to oppose war and push for peace, those
> who'd previously proclaimed themselves
> "anti-war" are on the other side screaming for
> more weapons to be poured into a proxy war
> that their government deliberately provoked.
> 
> WARMONGER!



Parrot wants a cracker? I already put this bs away.

Putin started the war and must learn the lesson, so he and other Napoleon wannabees think twice about the next invasion.


----------



## ESay

para bellum said:


> This was true when Russia still held Izium. Izium was the logistics hub for the northern axis of the Donbas front. The forces from Popasna were the southern axis. The Izium group would move south/east and take Sloviansk and Kramatorsk, and the Popasna group would advance through Bakhmut and move up the highway to meet up with the Izium group and thereby secure at least the major cities of Donestk Oblast.
> 
> The loss of Izium and the northern supply routes makes all that irrelevant. Bakhmut no longer has any strategic significance. It makes no military sense to continue frontal assaults at Bakhmut while Ukraine is making advances to the north. The Russians should be shoring up defensive positions around the current line of contact, and move what reserves they can muster from Bakhmut up to support Lysychansk-Lyman. Ukraine appears poised to take Lyman and Kreminna, and put Lysychansk and SDonetsk under siege.


Oh, just give it up. Do you think that dude ever heard of those cities and towns? Popasna, Kreminna... For him, all that is just a meaningless set of letters.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Parrot wants a cracker? I already put this bs away.
> 
> Putin started the war and must learn the lesson, so he and other Napoleon wannabees think twice about the next invasion.


I’m trying to enlighten you, but war loving idiots like you are a tough nut to crack.

How many Ukrainians must die for you to be happy?


----------



## para bellum

ESay said:


> Oh, just give it up. Do you think that dude ever heard of those cities and towns? Popasna, Kreminna... For him, all that is just a meaningless set of letters.


Most of the names are new to me too ESay. Ukrainian names are hard for Americans. Before this war I could have pointed out Kiev and Odesa and Sevastapol, a rough outline of the L/DPR's, and not much more.

If Ukrainians were crappier defenders, and/or Russia had a better army, I wouldn't have had to learn the names of these obscure towns and villages, lol.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I’m trying to enlighten you, but war loving idiots like you are a tough nut to crack.
> 
> How many Ukrainians must die for you to be happy?



Die for me?? Moron, it's Russians killing Ukranians. Ukranians who CHOSE to defend their land against invaders.

I'm HAPPY we can help Ukraine and Kremlin tools and apologists like you can go fuck yourselves.


----------



## ESay

para bellum said:


> Most of the names are new to me too ESay. Ukrainian names are hard for Americans. Before this war I could have pointed out Kiev and Odesa and Sevastapol, a rough outline of the L/DPR's, and not much more.
> 
> If Ukrainians were crappier defenders, and/or Russia had a better army, I wouldn't have had to learn the names of these obscure towns and villages, lol.


Yes, you are right the Americans didn't hear about these towns and basically shouldn't do that. What for? For the vast majority of them Ukraine is just a some place on a map in the middle of nowhere. 

And it may well be that after a while the Ukrainian theme will become 'toxic' in the US or that the focus will be shifted entirely into Asia. In the past six months, I have always thought what will be if the US is taken out of the equation. What policy of the EU and NATO would be, Germany, France. What lines Russia would have crossed as a result of that.

Ideally, Ukraine should rely on a regional alliance. But when I think what members this alliance could comprise of.. Well, that is not a dream team, really.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Dumbass he was CONVICTED of pedophilia in a court of law and just so happens, became Kremlin's cheerleader #1 after that.
> 
> I don't know if they got him by the balls, or that's the only jobs he can get nowadays, but his bias is off the charts silly.
> 
> Anyone quoting Rick has to be desparate for confirmation bias.


Do the truth and conviction by your stupid court always correlate? You made a martyr of a criminal and a drug addict and sentenced Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey for God doesn't know what they *presumably* did a century ago. If you sentenced those two who acted totally in agreement with your widely excepted patterns of behavior what would it take for the court to smear an honest man who voices things the likes of you, democrat I presume, don't want to hear? So in your upside down world you might easily wear conviction as a badge of honor.


----------



## AZrailwhale

BackAgain said:


> My question didn’t assume mindless hypotheticals.
> 
> And your point is of course pointless anyway. Let’s see why. Let’s use Vietnam as an example to fill in your idiotic blanks.
> We did invade Vietnam. They obviously hadn’t invaded us. Vietnam was a sovereign nation at the time. So obviously, we were to blame for our decision and action of going into fight that “police action” barring other factors.
> 
> But let’s go further. Let’s say for the sake of the discussion that no other factors justified our military action.  And, now?
> 
> Can we undo history?  Nope. But can we potentially help stop Russia from the wrong that it IS NOW COMMITTING?  Yes.
> 
> But your pointless is otherwise still useless. 👍


We didn't invade the RVN.  The REPUBLIC of VIETNAM was embroiled in a war against the PRVN.  PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of VIETNAM.  The sitting government of the RVN requested our support under the SEATO treaty of which we were both signatories.  The PRVN requested support from the People's Republic of China and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  Both the RVN and PRVN were sovereign countries, free to make treaties and request foreign assistance.


----------



## AZrailwhale

AntonToo said:


> It doesn't matter how many times you repeat rediculous bullshit, it's still just bullshit.
> 
> There was never any emminent threat from Ukraine to Russia and they haze ZERO legitimate claim to any Ukranian lands *PERIOD*.


Anyone who can read a map can see why Russia invaded Ukraine.  Russia wanted a secure land bridge to Sevastopol.  Sevastopol is Russia's only year-round ice-free port.  That makes it an important port to the Russian surface navy (such as it is anymore).


----------



## AntonToo

AZrailwhale said:


> Anyone who can read a map can see why Russia invaded Ukraine.  Russia wanted a secure land bridge to Sevastopol.  Sevastopol is Russia's only year-round ice-free port.  That makes it an important port tot eh Russian surface navy (such as it is anymore).



Wanting another country's land is not a legitimate reason for an invasion.

Can't believe I have to explain that.


----------



## AZrailwhale

georgephillip said:


> The US has always had a peculiar interpretation of crimes against humanity:
> Since the demise of the USSR, we don't even try to hide the farce.
> 
> Noam Chomsky: How the US "Politically Vulgarizes" Genocide and War Crimes
> 
> "We could, for example, listen to Justice Robert Jackson — the chief prosecutor of Nuremberg — his injunction to the tribunal. He spoke to the tribunal and said: _We have to recognize that crimes are crimes whether they commit them or we commit them. We are handing these defendants, he said, a poisoned chalice, and if we sip from it, we must be subject to the same conditions. If not, the whole trial is a farce.
> 
> "Is that applied when Britain and the United States invaded Iraq?
> 
> "It is a textbook example of aggression with absolutely no justification, [a] textbook example of what the Nuremberg tribunal called the 'supreme international crime,' which differs from other war crimes in that it includes all of the evil that follows.
> 
> "For example, the rise of ISIS [also known as Daesh] and the death of millions of people, includes all of that.
> 
> "Can you find any commentary in the United States even calling [the US-UK invasion] a crime?"_


Let's see, Iraq was invading its neighbors, raping and killing civilians and looting Kuwait.  The UN warned Iraq that its conduct was illegal and unacceptable, and Iraq ignored the warning.  The UN unanimously passed Resolution 660 declaring Iraq's annexation of Kuwait illegal and authorizing military action by member nations to expel Iraq.  The second UN/Iraq War was the direct result of Iraq violating no less than nine UN resolutions about Iraq violating the terms of the cease-fire that stopped combat in the first UN/Iraq war.  So Chomsky is full of crap as usual.


----------



## BackAgain

AZrailwhale said:


> We didn't invade the RVN.  The REPUBLIC of VIETNAM was embroiled in a war against the PRVN.  PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of VIETNAM.  The sitting government of the RVN requested our support under the SEATO treaty of which we were both signatories.  The PRVN requested support from the People's Republic of China and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  Both the RVN and PRVN were sovereign countries, free to make treaties and request foreign assistance.


*Every* word of that ^ post is simply beside the point.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Wanting someone else's land is not a legitimate reason for an invasion.
> 
> Can't believe I have to explain that.


What have legitimacy and the West got in common? If you throw it out the window every day of the week why should we have to bother? We just want to wring the neck of that fucking Nazy regime you installed there in 2014.


----------



## AZrailwhale

AntonToo said:


> Wanting another country's land is not a legitimate reason for an invasion.
> 
> Can't believe I have to explain that.


I never said Russia's conduct was legitimate.  I have been against Russia's UNPROVOKED INVASION from the beginning.  But the first step in defeating an enemy is learning their true objective.  Then you can prevent them from achieving that.  That's why for any lasting peace, Russia will have to be fully repelled and the 1991 borders of Ukraine restored AND the lease of Sevastopol to the Russian Navy cancelled.  That will remove any justification for future invasions.


----------



## AZrailwhale

BackAgain said:


> *Every* word of that ^ post is simply beside the point.


No that is the point.  The only invasion was that of PRVN forces invading the RVN against international law.  Of course, a case could be made that the PRVN also invaded Cambodia and Laos when it built bases there and routed war material through both countries on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in violation of international law on neutrality.


----------



## AZrailwhale

gipper said:


> I’m trying to enlighten you, but war loving idiots like you are a tough nut to crack.
> 
> How many Ukrainians must die for you to be happy?


How many Americans died in the Revolution and War of 1812 repelling British aggression?  There are worse deaths than those suffered defending your country from an invader.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> What have legitimacy and the West got in common? If you throw it out the window every day of the week why should we have to bother? We just want to wring the neck of that fucking Nazy regime you installed there in 2014.



You are asking why you have to bother with legitimacy?

Good job conceding the argument.

If all you have is "but what about others!!" To justify your invasion then maybe it's time to take hard look in the mirror Sasha.

Zelensky's government was dully elected. He is a Jew who's uncles died fighting Nazis along side Russians. Take your insane Nazi bs is shove it up your ass, no one outside of Kremlin propaganda bubble is buying that nonsense.


----------



## para bellum

AZrailwhale said:


> Sevastopol is Russia's only year-round ice-free port. That makes it an important port tot eh Russian surface navy (such as it is anymore).


They also have Novorossiysk (and Sochi, but that is geared for commercial passenger traffic).

For most of the war there have been 4 Kilo-class SSK's in Sevastopol. Then Ukraine started doing the drone attacks in Crimea. 

The Kilos don't need to be close to Ukraine to fire their Kaliber missiles, but they are vulnerable when they are tied to the pier. So about 3 weeks ago, they joined the remaining phibs at Novorossiysk to get them out of drone range.

Novorossiysk was pretty run-down from decades of neglect, and Russia poured a lot of money into Sevestapol. But there have been investments made in Novorossiysk in recent years, and it's a large all-season port and probably the most important port to Russia in the Black Sea.

Plus Russia _had_ a deal for long-term tenancy at Sevestapol- Putin didn't need to invade Ukraine to get that...


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Why do you have to bother with legitimacy?
> 
> Good job conceding the argument.
> 
> If all you have is "but what about others!!" To justify your invasion then maybe it's time to take hard look in the mirror Sasha.


Your legitimacy means shit to us. It's been vaporising slowly since the break up of the USSR. Now it's completely vanished. You just don't have decency, the America I mean. If you're a scumbag and you act like a scumbag to me why should you expect me to be nice in return. You have to learn to howl if you have to live with the wolfs. Is that the saying that you have in English?


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Your legitimacy means shit to us. It's been vaporising slowly since the break up of the USSR. Now it's completely vanished. You just don't have decency, the America I mean. If you're a scumbag and you act like a scumbag to me why should you expect me to be nice in return. You have to learn to howl if you have to live with the wolfs. Is that the saying that you have in English?



So just to review: you Putinists are invading, bombing and land stealing the shit out of Ukraine....because America is supposedly bad.

Did I get the entire elegance of your stupid argument?


----------



## AZrailwhale

para bellum said:


> They also have Novorossiysk (and Sochi, but that is geared for commercial passenger traffic).
> 
> For most of the war there have been 4 Kilo-class SSK's in Sevastopol. Then Ukraine started doing the drone attacks in Crimea.
> 
> The Kilos don't need to be close to Ukraine to fire their Kaliber missiles, but they are vulnerable when they are tied to the pier. So about 3 weeks ago, they joined the remaining phibs at Novorossiysk to get them out of drone range.
> 
> Novorossiysk was pretty run-down from decades of neglect, and Russia poured a lot of money into Sevestapol. But there have been investments made in Novorossiysk in recent years, and it's a large all-season port and probably the most important port to Russia in the Black Sea.
> 
> Plus Russia _had_ a deal for long-term tenancy at Sevestapol- Putin didn't need to invade Ukraine to get that...


He had an occupancy deal, but access was controlled by Ukraine.  Like Berlin in the late forties when the Soviets blockaded all surface access, Ukraine could shut down Russian access at will making the port useless.


----------



## alexa

AZrailwhale said:


> Let's see, Iraq was invading its neighbors, raping and killing civilians and looting Kuwait.  The UN warned Iraq that its conduct was illegal and unacceptable, and Iraq ignored the warning.  The UN unanimously passed Resolution 660 declaring Iraq's annexation of Kuwait illegal and authorizing military action by member nations to expel Iraq.


OK the 2nd Iraq war is what he is speaking of


AZrailwhale said:


> The second UN/Iraq War was the direct result of Iraq violating no less than nine UN resolutions about Iraq violating the terms of the cease-fire that stopped combat in the first UN/Iraq war.  So Chomsky is full of crap as usual.


Well then it is a pity that the US and UK did not hear the UN saying that it was an illegal war. I heard nothing about Iraq  violating 9 UN resolutions but I do know that we in the UK were told that Iraq had WMD's which could reach the UK in 45 minutes and so we must go to war with them to stop this and I do know that one of our intelligence officers said that when they told the British Government that they could find no evidence of Iraq being a danger to us - that Iran was very definitely more of a danger, they were told to create information which could be used to justify a war. So lets be clear the Iraq war was fought because the UK and US wanted to fight.  Chomsky is talking of misusing the word Genocide.  He says



> *Is that applied when Britain and the United States invaded Iraq? It is a textbook example of aggression with absolutely no justification, [a] textbook example of what the Nuremberg tribunal called the “supreme international crime,” which differs from other war crimes in that it includes all of the evil that follows. For example, the rise of ISIS [also known as Daesh] and the death of millions of people, includes all of that. Can you find any commentary in the United States even calling [the US-UK invasion] a crime?[*/quote





> Noam Chomsky: How the US "Politically Vulgarizes" Genocide and War Crimes
> 
> 
> The US has never used the terms genocide or war crimes to define its own historical and current actions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> truthout.org






> It is a textbook example of aggression with absolutely no justification - fake reasons were given for the war and he correctly Blames the US/UK for the millions who died because of that aggression.
> 
> If as he says, in the US this war was not seen as a crime, then that if very different from the UK.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Do the truth and conviction by your stupid court always correlate?


No justice system is 100% perfect, but American justice system is one of the best in the world. (unlike corrupt Russian clown courts). 

Absolutely it's trustworthy.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> You made a martyr of a criminal and a drug addict and sentenced Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey for God doesn't know what they *presumably* did a century ago.



....so sexually molesting people is no big deal and having some prescribed, personal use weed on you is grounds for 10 year prison sentence.

This is exactly why people think Russia is a backward country.


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are repeating exactly what I said, there was no  civil war until Russia formed these militia and sent them to provide a pretext for the invasion.


The civil war started when a violent mob lead by neo-Nazis and supported by Victoria Nuland, John McCain, and Joe Biden drove a duly elected president from office by murdering police officers and protestors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/

"No single datapoint could capture or explain all of that. But the map below comes perhaps as close as anything could. It shows Ukraine, color-coded by the country's major ethnic and linguistic divisions."





A majority of Ukrainians voted for Yanukovych in 2010, and they weren't going to allow Nazis to take over. Ukraine is the second most corrupt state in Europe, and it was never worth a single US dollar.

It still isn't.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Take your insane Nazi bs is shove it up your ass, no one outside of Kremlin propaganda bubble is buying that nonsense.


Weren't you trying to say the whole world is not buying? Do I have to school you that China and India make more than half of the world? There's also Africa and South America and others too. What part of the World do they make together? So you better shove yours up Biden's and company's.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Weren't you trying to say the whole world is not buying? Do I have to school you that China and India make more than half of the world? There's also Africa and South America and others too. What part of the World do they make together? So you better shove yours up Biden's and company's.



Yep, go sell that bullshit to Chinese, along with whatever you can dig from under your feet, for heavy discount.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> ....so sexually molesting people is no big deal and having some prescribed, personal use weed on you is grounds for 10 year prison sentence.
> 
> This is exactly why people think Russia is a backward country.


Who, Weinstein? Those bitches were racing to get on his couch and now you call it molesting? You are fucked man, you really are. America is doomed, God help you speed that up.


----------



## para bellum

AZrailwhale said:


> He had an occupancy deal, but access was controlled by Ukraine.  Like Berlin in the late forties when the Soviets blockaded all surface access, Ukraine could shut down Russian access at will making the port useless.


The Ukrainian Navy was going to blockade the Black Sea Fleet?

If Russia's presence on the peninsula was limited to Sevestapol, Putin couldn't put airbases and S-400 batteries all over Crimea and threaten the airspace of Ukraine and Romania...


----------



## georgephillip

ESay said:


> Their ideology doesn't coincide with the term 'democracy'. Their ideal was a 'national' Ukrainian state with a strong vertical of power.


Any white supremacy in their national Ukrainian state?
The US has enough home grown racists to bother with any corrupt, foreign-born master race loons.





"Yaroslav Stetsko with then-Vice President George H.W. Bush"

Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online

"Looking back, the U.S. under Truman began the policy of turning enemies (Germany, Japan) into friends and friends (the important war-time alliance with the USSR) into enemies. 

"The CIA, established in 1947, was the main clandestine instrument of this policy, *working closely with the neo-Nazi Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) to carry out acts to sabotage, divide and destabilize the Soviet state.*

"The OUN, in particular the faction led by the German ally Stepan Bandera and his second in command, Yaroslav Stetsko, OUN-B, was a violently anti-semitic, anti-communist, and anti-Russian organization, which collaborated with the Nazi occupation and actively participated in the slaughter of millions of Poles, Ukrainian Jews, and ethnically Russian and Ukrainian communists in the region. 

"Nonetheless, _The_ _Washington Post_ treated Stetsko as a national hero, a 'lonely patriot.'"


----------



## para bellum

ESay said:


> Ideally, Ukraine should rely on a regional alliance. But when I think what members this alliance could comprise of.. Well, that is not a dream team, really.


Poland is with you, and they are in a full blown acquisition mode. Poland will have the most potent military in Europe in the not-very-distant future.


----------



## AlexanderPK

para bellum said:


> Poland is with you, and they are in a full blown acquisition mode. Poland will have the most potent military in Europe in the not-very-distant future.


Yeah, they will. Then they'll get hit on the muzzle as they always do and will be crying for reparations like they do now from Germany and Russia even. Boy, do they have the nerve?


----------



## sparky

1/2 century ago i listened to my elders asking '_why are we involved in any other country's civil war?' _

Seems what comes around goes around.....

~S~


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> ....so sexually molesting people is no big deal and having some prescribed, personal use weed on you is grounds for 10 year prison sentence.
> 
> This is exactly why people think Russia is a backward country.


It may be a backward country, but this has nothing to do with your support of this stupid war.  

How many Ukrainians must die to satisfy you?


----------



## georgephillip

Toro said:


> Anti-American tankies always blame America first.
> 
> Always have, always will.
> 
> Because they hate America.


How many millions of civilians has the US military maimed, murdered, and displaced since 1945?

For extra credit: How much profit ha$ that generated for U$ investor$?


----------



## georgephillip

sparky said:


> 1/2 century ago i listened to my elders asking '_why are we involved in any other country's civil war?' _
> 
> Seems what comes around goes around.....
> 
> ~S~


Particularly after we have instigated their civil wars in order to pump up arms sales.

Korea.
Vietnam.
Afghanistan (twice)
Iraq.
Syria.
Africa???


----------



## georgephillip

Toro said:


> Keep sucking in that Russian propaganda, anti-American stooge.


How much money are you making from Ukrainian deaths, more than the Syrians and less than the Iraqis, Capitalist twit?


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Who, Weinstein? Those bitches were racing to get on his couch and now you call it molesting? You are fucked man, you really are. America is doomed, God help you speed that up.



Speaks for itself.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> If Russian speakers were really being killed in Ukraine just for speaking Russian, then we would see that all over Ukraine. Instead the conflict was ONLY in areas under controll of Russian backed *SEPARATISTS*, who refused Ukranian federal authority and were THE cause for conflict.


Russian speakers were being killed in the Donbass and elsewhere because they objected to an illegal coup that drove a duly elected ... you know the rest, right?

14,000 Ukrainians (mostly Russian speakers) died before Putin launched his special military operation designed to rid the country Nazis and NATO puppets intent on regime change in Moscow.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Like any country, Ukraine has a LEGITIMATE RIGHT to enforce it's borders. Like any country has a right to put down armed rebellions and separatists. Russia had ZERO legitimacy in annexing Ukranian Crimea and ZERO legitimacy in it's invasion.


Nazis and Victoria Nuland had no LEGITIMATE RIGHT to murder police officers and drive a duly elected president from office. Once that crime was committed, all Ukrainians had the RIGHT to protest. They STILL do.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Yeah, they will. Then they'll get hit on the muzzle as they always do and will be crying for reparations like they do now from Germany and Russia even. Boy, do they have the nerve?



This is why Russia can't get it togather to be half decent country, half the population talks like this drunk degenerate.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> This is why Russia can't get it togather to be half decent country, half the population talks like this drunk degenerate.


Half of your population lives in a half decent tent under a bridge taking dump right beside it. I don't see you getting it together, but somehow you want us do it. What the hell?


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> So just to review: you Putinists are invading, bombing and land stealing the shit out of Ukraine....because America is supposedly bad.
> 
> Did I get the entire elegance of your stupid argument?


It's always you who start with spitting upon legitimacy first and stir up trouble, we respond later. That's the elegance of it all. There wouldn't have been trouble in the world had there been no America or Anglo-Saxons for that matter.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Half of your population lives in a half decent tent under a bridge taking dump right beside it. I don't see you getting it together, but somehow you want us do it. What the hell?



Pure bullshit. US is one of the richest countries.

Only a handful of people with mental health and addiction problems do that. Anyone in their right mind can get shelter and welfare support in US.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> It's always you who start with spitting upon legitimacy first and stir up trouble, we respond later. That's the elegance of it all. There wouldn't have been trouble in the world had there been no America or Anglo-Saxons for that matter.



Again who is "you"? Russians are not attacking US, you are killing Ukrainians and your own people in this bloody invasion (50,000 killed already)


----------



## georgephillip

alexa said:


> More possibly a good thing for coming to agreements.  If US/Ukraine wants Russia to keep quiet about it - or if Ukraine/US does not want them killed.  It's a very good bargaining chip.


Americans lack historical context when thinking about what's happening in Ukraine.
They don't know (and many don't care) about how long the US has been using Nazis to further their goals of Soviet/Russian regime change.
Some of the selfies coming from Kharkiv probably won't do much to educate the willfully ignorant:




"On May 29, the 'Azov' Kharkiv Special Operations Force detachment was officially formed in Kharkiv.

"According to Censor.NЕТ, this was stated in Telegram by Kostyantyn Nemychev.

"He noted, 'Today in Kharkiv, the unit of SOF 'Azov' Kharkiv has been officially formed. This is another of our combat unit, which will operate in the Kharkiv region and liberate our land from the occupants. Anatoly Sydorenko was appointed commander of this unit'.

*Read more: Russia wants to recognize Azov as terroristic"
 organization Source: https://censor.net/en/p3344662*

https://censor.net/en/photo_news/3344662/in_kharkiv_officially_formed_sof_unit_azov_kharkiv_photos

Scott Ritter has speculated Putin may plan on upgrading his "special military operation" in Ukraine to a "counterterrorism" effort which would legally allow Russia to become much more aggressive in how it pursues its goal of de-Nazification in Ukraine.


----------



## AntonToo

georgephillip said:


> Americans lack historical context when thinking about what's happening in Ukraine.
> They don't know (and many don't care) about how long the *US has been using Nazis to further their goals of Soviet/Russian regime change.*


Nope! What we lack is the stupidity to belive such ludecrous propaganda.

Not in the wildest dreams did US forsee Putin's regime expanding NATO, crippling Russian exports to EU, and destroying itself in the way that it's doing now with this insane, half-assed invasion.

It's pure self-ejection for Putin.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Again who is "you"? Russians are not attacking US, you are killing Ukrainians and your own people in this bloody invasion (50,000 killed already)


The other mofo quoted 100 000, you 50 000, get the right ass to dig these figures from, stop embarrassing yourself. We're killing Banderiets, i.e. your puppets, i.e. the universal evil which is the collective West with the US at the helm. There's nothing bloody about that, it's exterminating of rats. It's somewhat noble, I'd say.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> The other mofo quoted 100 000, you 50 000, get the right ass to dig these figures from, stop embarrassing yourself.


In true Russian fashion Ministry of Defense and Putin Vision media will not inform your citizens of the true costs of this invasion. 

Leaked documents seem to show* 48,759 is what Russian Treasury itself states *in it's internal budgetting are PAYOUTS to the families of killed Russian soldiers, based on information from Ministry of Defense dated 08/24/22. Which is in line with what UK intelligence reports.

**
It's a conservative number given how many dead Russian soldiers are counted as missing in action. And this number obviously doesn't include the wounded.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> We're killing Banderiets, i.e. your puppets, i.e. the universal evil which is the collective West with the US at the helm. There's nothing bloody about that, it's exterminating of rats. It's somewhat noble, I'd say.


....the level of stupidity and naivete it takes to write something like this is astounding.

You are killing *people*, Ukranians.

You are killing Ukranian sodiers drafted by their government to defend their land against invaders and yes you are killing a lot of Ukranian civilians in the process, intentional or not. It takes grand self-delusions to convince yourself that you know all these people, including children, to have some specific, uniform ideology.

It's just something Russians like you tell yourself to be able to sleep at night, while your deplorable government is conducting these atrocities.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> In true Russian fashion Ministry of Defense and Putin Vision media will not inform your citizens of the true costs of this invasion.
> 
> Leaked documents seem to show* 48,759 is what Russian Treasury itself states *in it's internal budgetting are PAYOUTS to the families of killed Russian soldiers, based on information from Ministry of Defense dated 08/24/22. Which is in line with what UK intelligence reports.
> 
> **
> It's a conservative number given how many dead Russian soldiers are counted as missing in action. And this number obviously doesn't include the wounded.


A Ukrainian born American is your reliable source of information? There's a branch of the AFU specialising in concocting these kind of leaked documents. The Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, Butcha and bullshit like that, did you hear about those? That's what these bastards fabricate day and night. There's gonna be some Butcha II soon I bet, if not already. Hundreds of civilians buried alive, dozens of babushkas raped and murdered, thousands of toilets and washing machines stolen and carried away. By the way, there can't be typos in official documents like that. Yours got at least one: 06.05.*20212* №1100.


----------



## BackAgain

AZrailwhale said:


> No that is the point.  The only invasion was that of PRVN forces invading the RVN against international law.  Of course, a case could be made that the PRVN also invaded Cambodia and Laos when it built bases there and routed war material through both countries on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in violation of international law on neutrality.


Nope. Entirely beside the point. 

This isn’t a dissertation on your miscomprehension of history and Vietnam.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> ....the level of stupidity and naivete it takes to write something like this is astounding.
> 
> You are killing *people*, Ukranians.
> 
> You are killing Ukranian sodiers drafted by their government to defend their land against invaders and yes you are killing a lot of Ukranian civilians in the process, intentional or not. It takes grand self-delusions to convince yourself that you know all these people, including children, to have some specific, uniform ideology.
> 
> It's just something Russians like you tell yourself to be able to sleep at night, while your deplorable government is conducting these atrocities.


The problem with you, duplicitous pseudo-righteous mother-fuckers is that you won't notice the other blood that started this whole thing.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> A Ukrainian born American is your reliable source of information? There's a branch of the AFU specialising in concocting these kind of leaked documents. The Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, Butcha and bullshit like that, did you hear about those? That's what these bastards fabricate day and night. There's gonna be some Butcha II soon I bet, if not already. Hundreds of civilians buried alive, dozens of babushkas raped and murdered, thousands of toilets and washing machines stolen and carried away. By the way, there can't be typos in official documents like that. Yours got at least one: 06.05.*20212* №1100.



Pretty ironic that a Kremlin propaganda dupe like you is going to complain about sourcing.

As I've said, document's numbers are consistent with UK intelligence and on the ground reporting. It does seem credible.


You don't want to accept these numbers? Ok fine, propose what you consider to be credible numbers.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Pretty ironic that a Kremlin propaganda dupe like you is going to complain about sourcing.
> 
> As I've said, document's numbers are consistent with UK intelligence and on the ground reporting. It does seem credible.
> 
> 
> You don't want to accept these numbers? Ok fine, propose what you consider to be credible numbers.


Divide them by 10. That'll be the ballpark.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Pretty ironic that a Kremlin propaganda dupe like you is going to complain about sourcing.
> 
> As I've said, document's numbers are consistent with UK intelligence and on the ground reporting. It does seem credible.
> 
> 
> You don't want to accept these numbers? Ok fine, propose what you consider to be credible numbers.


UK intelligence? There was a series of what we call anecdotes but you for some reason call them funny stories or something, that always had a line in them saying "British scientists found out..." Where did the UK intelligence find those figures? The Ukrainian Special Operations Forces told it so.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> UK intelligence? There was a series of what we call anecdotes but you for some reason call them funny stories or something, that always had a line in them saying "British scientists found out..." Where did the UK intelligence find those figures? The Ukrainian Special Operations Forces told it so.



You didn't actually answer what you consider to be credible numbers and why you think it's ok for  Russian government to keep secret Russian death toll in Ukraine from it's citizens.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Divide them by 10. That'll be the ballpark.


Based ON WHAT? How did you arrive at this factor? Your fantasies?


----------



## para bellum

AlexanderPK said:


> Divide them by 10. That'll be the ballpark.


5K might account for the L/DRPR KIA's alone. The DPR reported 3,069 killed and 13,018 wounded as of September 15.

The 50K estimate is low based on the confirmed losses of infantry fighting vehicles, APC's, and tanks. There are a lot of dead Russians that will never be identified because there isn't enough left of them to make an ID.


----------



## AntonToo

para bellum said:


> 5K might account for the L/DRPR KIA's alone. The DPR reported 3,069 killed and 13,018 wounded as of September 15.
> 
> The 50K estimate is low based on the confirmed losses of infantry fighting vehicles, APC's, and tanks. There are a lot of dead Russians that will never be identified because there isn't enough left of them to make an ID.



LNR/DPR units are not really considered by Russians part of the Russian army or Russian casualties.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Based ON WHAT? How did you arrive at this factor? Your fantasies?


There's a rule: take the Hohols' fantasies and divide them by ten. That'll give your figure.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> There's a rule: take the Hohols' fantasies and divide them by ten. That'll give your figure.


It's a stupid, completely arbitrary rule, but then again most of what you post is.

You have no fucking clue, which is exactly what Kremlin propaganda machine counts on to fill you up with total bs.


----------



## ESay

para bellum said:


> Poland is with you, and they are in a full blown acquisition mode. Poland will have the most potent military in Europe in the not-very-distant future.


Yes, Poland is a natural ally in this case. But I meant a somewhat different thing. Let's consider a 'worse case' scenario. The US decides to leave the European continent as much as possible and concentrate on other parts of the world.

The EU and NATO are divided on several parts with Germany and France closing a free trade area for Eastern Europe and excluding it from the common budget.

Will the Polish-led alliance be self-sufficient and sustainable without the 'Western' technologies, finances, industry and so on? Actually, there are more questions about that than answers.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> It's a stupid, completely arbitrary rule, but then again most of what you post is.
> 
> You have no fucking clue, which is exactly what Kremlin propaganda machine counts on to fill you up with total bs.


There you go again. Your fucking clues don't open anything. They are just that same propaganda you accuse me of only with names reversed that feeds you total bs you have the hubris to call the truth.


----------



## para bellum

ESay said:


> Yes, Poland is a natural ally in this case. But I meant a somewhat different thing. Let's consider a 'worse case' scenario. The US decides to leave the European continent as much as possible and concentrate on other parts of the world.
> 
> The EU and NATO are divided on several parts with Germany and France closing a free trade area for Eastern Europe and excluding it from the common budget.
> 
> Will the Polish-led alliance be self-sufficient and sustainable without the 'Western' technologies, finances, industry and so on? Actually, there are more questions about that than answers.


I think that whatever the EU does on the economic front, NATO will always include Poland and Romania and the Balts. Poland will be the military powerhouse, and it is all NATO (or NATO pattern) kit. Ukraine is already moving that direction as far as becoming NATO compliant.

So some time in the future, the US has abandoned Europe as much as possible, there remains a revitalized NATO that includes Ukraine. If not, then Ukraine has the regional alliance with Poland and the Balts and Romania and Moldova, and everyone but Moldova is armed to the teeth.

And really, NATO does not want another security alliance in Europe, especially when there would be member states that are also NATO member states. They would much rather have Ukraine in NATO, where they would have more influence over Ukraine.

Security-wise, Ukraine is safe from another invasion from the east. Economy-wise, is it safe from Germany?

A rebuilt Ukraine, with all the industry and energy and raw materials (and cheap labor) is a direct industrial competitor to Germany. How that plays out is anyone's guess, but I can certainly imagine German companies squalling and bawling about having to compete with Ukrainian steel mills and heavy industry. I think about Turkey, and it seems like full EU membership on an equal footing is probably a heavier lift for Ukraine than joining NATO...


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> They are just that same propaganda you accuse me of


Nope, my numbers are not based on a ridiculous, stupid formula of simply taking a number you don't happen to like and arbitrary dividing it by 10.

You have no fucking clue how many Russians died in Ukraine, and you don't care that your shitty government (that knows exactly how many payouts it has to make for the dead soldiers) is making sure you don't know.

Each and every American that died in action is listed here in US, because we honor our soldiers and respect their sacrifice. All your government respects is your Dear Leader.


----------



## para bellum

AntonToo said:


> LNR/DPR units are not really considered by Russians part of the Russian army or Russian casualties.


Neither are the Wagners, or the Chechens, or the Rosvguardia, or the other "volunteer battalions" that are doing the actual fighting and dying for Putin's Imperial ambitions.

So as far as that goes, AlexanderPK might have an argument that "Russian" casualties are only ~5K, but the casualties among the actual fighters on the Russian side overall really is 10x that number...


----------



## AntonToo

para bellum said:


> Neither are the Wagners, or the Chechens, or the Rosvguardia, or the other "volunteer battalions" that are doing the actual fighting and dying for Putin's Imperial ambitions.
> 
> So as far as that goes, AlexanderPK might have an argument that "Russian" casualties are only ~5K, but the casualties among the actual fighters on the Russian side overall really is 10x that number...


Kadyrovites are considered part of National Guard of Russia (Rosvguardia) , they get a death payout and would be part of the Finance Ministry's numbers. DNR/LNR/Wagner casualties don't count though.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Nope, my numbers are not based on a ridiculous, stupid formula of simply taking a number you don't happen to like and arbitrary dividing it by 10.
> 
> You have no fucking clue how many Russians died in Ukraine, and you don't care that your shitty government (that knows exactly how many payouts it has to make for the dead soldiers) is making sure you don't know.
> 
> Each and every American that died in action is listed here in US, because we honor our soldiers and respect their sacrifice. All your government respects is your Dear Leader.


Thank God you said nothing of freedom and democracy again. Well, I didn't think of this before but now when you got me started I took to some arithmetics and here's what I got:
my town is of 60 000 people; we've got two soldiers who were killed there; Russia's population is 144 000 000; let's assume every other town in the country has the same proportion of KIA, then (144 000 000/60 000)*2= 4800. That should be your number.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Moron, Rick Scott has been a pathetic Russian shill since his ass got convicted for pedophilia.
> 
> His "analysis" is worth fuck all as anyone who kept track of his war predictions of grand Russian victory well knows.


Rick Scott is indeed a corporate fraudster, but he's firmly on your side of the current NATO/Russia conflict




Sen. Rick Scott: We Must Deliver Lethal Military Aid to Ukraine & Take Care of American Families

If you honestly believe NATO is winning the current proxy war in Ukraine, you should definitely support Scott and his MAGA delusions.

Democrats: Medicare fraud is 'fungus' Scott will never get rid of


----------



## para bellum

georgephillip said:


> Rick Scott is indeed a corporate fraudster, but he's firmly on your side of the current NATO/Russia conflict


Anton was conflating Rick Scott and Scott Ritter. Yes, Rick Scott is one of the stronger GOP voices on Ukraine's side.

Ritter is the pedo, and a Putin apologist who hasn't been right on Ukraine yet...


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Dumbass he was CONVICTED of pedophilia in a court of law and just so happens, became Kremlin's cheerleader #1 after that.


How are you defining "Pedophilia?"

Scott Ritter - Wikipedia

"Ritter was arrested again in November 2009[33] over communications with a police decoy he met on an Internet chat site. 

"Police said that he exposed himself, via a web camera, after the officer repeatedly identified himself as a 15-year-old girl.[2] 

*"Ritter said in his own testimony during the trial that he believed the other party was an adult acting out her fantasy.[34] The chat room had an 'age 18 and above' policy, which Ritter stated to the undercover officer.[2] *

"The next month, Ritter waived his right to a preliminary hearing and was released on a $25,000 unsecured bail. 

"Charges included 'unlawful contact with a minor, criminal use of a communications facility, corruption of minors, indecent exposure, possessing instruments of crime, criminal attempt and criminal solicitation'.[35] 

"Ritter rejected a plea bargain and was found guilty of all but the criminal attempt count in a courtroom in Monroe County, Pennsylvania, on April 14, 2011.[2][36] 

"In October 2011, he received a sentence of 1½ to 5½ years in prison.[37] 

"He was sent to Laurel Highlands state prison in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, in March 2012 and paroled in September 2014.[38][34]["


----------



## AlexanderPK

georgephillip said:


> How are you defining "Pedophilia?"
> 
> Scott Ritter - Wikipedia
> 
> "Ritter was arrested again in November 2009[33] over communications with a police decoy he met on an Internet chat site.
> 
> "Police said that he exposed himself, via a web camera, after the officer repeatedly identified himself as a 15-year-old girl.[2]
> 
> *"Ritter said in his own testimony during the trial that he believed the other party was an adult acting out her fantasy.[34] The chat room had an 'age 18 and above' policy, which Ritter stated to the undercover officer.[2] *
> 
> "The next month, Ritter waived his right to a preliminary hearing and was released on a $25,000 unsecured bail.
> 
> "Charges included 'unlawful contact with a minor, criminal use of a communications facility, corruption of minors, indecent exposure, possessing instruments of crime, criminal attempt and criminal solicitation'.[35]
> 
> "Ritter rejected a plea bargain and was found guilty of all but the criminal attempt count in a courtroom in Monroe County, Pennsylvania, on April 14, 2011.[2][36]
> 
> "In October 2011, he received a sentence of 1½ to 5½ years in prison.[37]
> 
> "He was sent to Laurel Highlands state prison in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, in March 2012 and paroled in September 2014.[38][34]["


The usual bullshit they resort to when there's a need to get rid of someone they don't like no more.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Die for me?? Moron, it's Russians killing Ukranians. Ukranians who CHOSE to defend their land against invaders.
> 
> I'm HAPPY we can help Ukraine and Kremlin tools and apologists like you can go fuck yourselves.


Claim down Karen.

You support this proxy war. You want Ukraine to fight rather than negotiate a peace treaty.  You are a confused warmonger.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

AlexanderPK said:


> The other mofo quoted 100 000, you 50 000, get the right ass to dig these figures from, stop embarrassing yourself. We're killing Banderiets, i.e. your puppets, i.e. the universal evil which is the collective West with the US at the helm. There's nothing bloody about that, it's exterminating of rats. It's somewhat noble, I'd say.


*All Republics Go Bananas*

That evil shouldn't be blamed on the American people; it's our hereditary self-appointed ruling class that must be exterminated.  Trump tried to dismantle it through political means.  As happened to Gorbachev in the Communist state, our political system will crush any healthy reforms.  It only allows toxic ones.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

BackAgain said:


> Nope. Entirely beside the point.
> 
> This isn’t a dissertation on your miscomprehension of history and Vietnam.


*Epitaph on the Vietnam War Memorial:  PROUD TO DIE TAKING A RICH KID'S PLACE*

Our ruling class's purpose in the Vietnam War was to kill off or take the fight out of the bravest sons of the White working class.  Mission Accomplished.


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> This was true when Russia still held Izium. Izium was the logistics hub for the northern axis of the Donbas front. The forces from Popasna were the southern axis. The Izium group would move south/east and take Sloviansk and Kramatorsk, and the Popasna group would advance through Bakhmut and move up the highway to meet up with the Izium group and thereby secure at least the major cities of Donestk Oblast.
> 
> The loss of Izium and the northern supply routes makes all that irrelevant. Bakhmut no longer has any strategic significance. It makes no military sense to continue frontal assaults at Bakhmut while Ukraine is making advances to the north. The Russians should be shoring up defensive positions around the current line of contact, and move what reserves they can muster from Bakhmut up to support Lysychansk-Lyman. Ukraine appears poised to take Lyman and Kreminna, and put Lysychansk and SDonetsk under siege.


The casualties Ukraine suffered taking Izium and are still experiencing are unsustainable. It was a propaganda victory and little else.

SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains

"Ukraine has exhausted its strategic reserves, and they will have to be reconstituted if Ukraine were to have any aspirations of continuing an advance along these lines. 

"This will take months.

"Russia, meanwhile, has lost nothing more than some indefensible space. 

"Russian casualties were minimal, and equipment losses readily replaced.

"Russia has actually strengthened its military posture by creating strong defensive lines in the north capable of withstanding any Ukrainian attack, while increasing combat power available to complete the task of liberating the remainder of the Donetsk People’s Republic under Ukrainian control.

"Russia has far more strategic depth than Ukraine.

"Russia is beginning to strike critical infrastructure targets, such as power stations, that will not only cripple the Ukrainian economy, but also their ability to move large amounts of troops rapidly via train.?


----------



## AlexanderPK

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *All Republics Go Bananas*
> 
> That evil shouldn't be blamed on the American people; it's our hereditary self-appointed ruling class that must be exterminated.  Trump tried to dismantle it through political means.  As happened to Gorbachev in the Communist state, our political system will crush any healthy reforms.  It only allows toxic ones.


Well, the reasonable ones have been silent for a while so I thought only the rats remained. Sorry.


----------



## toomuchtime_

georgephillip said:


> The casualties Ukraine suffered taking Izium and are still experiencing are unsustainable. It was a propaganda victory and little else.
> 
> SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains
> 
> "Ukraine has exhausted its strategic reserves, and they will have to be reconstituted if Ukraine were to have any aspirations of continuing an advance along these lines.
> 
> "This will take months.
> 
> "Russia, meanwhile, has lost nothing more than some indefensible space.
> 
> "Russian casualties were minimal, and equipment losses readily replaced.
> 
> "Russia has actually strengthened its military posture by creating strong defensive lines in the north capable of withstanding any Ukrainian attack, while increasing combat power available to complete the task of liberating the remainder of the Donetsk People’s Republic under Ukrainian control.
> 
> "Russia has far more strategic depth than Ukraine.
> 
> "Russia is beginning to strike critical infrastructure targets, such as power stations, that will not only cripple the Ukrainian economy, but also their ability to move large amounts of troops rapidly via train.?


On the other hand


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Thank God you said nothing of freedom and democracy again. Well, I didn't think of this before but now when you got me started I took to some arithmetics and here's what I got:
> my town is of 60 000 people; we've got two soldiers who were killed there; Russia's population is 144 000 000; let's assume every other town in the country has the same proportion of KIA, then (144 000 000/60 000)*2= 4800. That should be your number.


Wtf makes you think your town is representative of entire Russia?

Your presumption that it does is baseless.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Claim down Karen.
> 
> You support this proxy war. You want Ukraine to fight rather than negotiate a peace treat. You are a confused warmonger.


Dumbass you can't negotiate when you give Putin anything he wants as soon as moves his army in.

Thats like saying that WW2 was the fault of allies because they didn't wave the white flag and simply handed over their countries to Japan and Germany.


----------



## AlexanderPK

AntonToo said:


> Wtf makes you think your town is representative of entire Russia?
> 
> Your presumption that it does is baseless.


Do you think I didn't know you'd say something like that? Fuck you, my American unfriend. It's time to go to bed.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> Do you think I didn't know you'd say something like that? Fuck you, my American unfriend. It's time to go to bed.


You knew it because the glaring flaw of your anecdote based estimate is OBVIOUS.

Just as 1+1 = 2 is obvious, but more importantly TRUE.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> The problem with you, duplicitous pseudo-righteous mother-fuckers is that you won't notice the other blood that started this whole thing.


"This whole thing" was started by Putin exploiting internal Ukranian instability to annex Crimea and arm separatists in Dombas/Luhansk.


----------



## AntonToo

AlexanderPK said:


> The usual bullshit they resort to when there's a need to get rid of someone they don't like no more.


Moron, who is "they"? Jurrors who heard the case and convicted Ritter based on law?


----------



## georgephillip

AZrailwhale said:


> We didn't invade the RVN.  The REPUBLIC of VIETNAM was embroiled in a war against the PRVN.  PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of VIETNAM.  The sitting government of the RVN requested our support under the SEATO treaty of which we were both signatories.  The PRVN requested support from the People's Republic of China and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  Both the RVN and PRVN were sovereign countries, free to make treaties and request foreign assistance.


You're conflating real history with official history.

The US destroyed South Vietnam and its neighbors by abetting a civil war ( think Ukraine) and then murdering, maiming, and displacing millions of innocent human beings for PROFIT$.

The Legacy of the Vietnam War, Noam Chomsky interviewed by Paul Shannon

"The real invasion of South Vietnam which was directed largely against the rural society began directly in 1962 after many years of working through mercenaries and client groups. 

"And that fact simply does not exist in official American history. 

"There is no such event in American history as the attack on South Vietnam. 

"That’s gone. Of course, 

"It is a part of real history. 

"But it’s not a part of official history.

*"And most of us who were opposed to the war, especially in the early ’60’s — the war we were opposed to was the war on South Vietnam which destroyed South Vietnam’s rural society. *

"The South was devastated."


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Dumbass you can't negotiate when you give Putin anything he wants as soon as moves his army in.
> 
> Thats like saying that WW2 was the fault of allies because they didn't wave the white flag and simply handed over their countries to Japan and Germany.


Must you always be a dick who knows nothing. They had a tentative agreement back in April but dumb Boris put a stop to it, because the oligarchy demanded it. 

Why do you support the oligarchy?  Are you dumb?


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Must you always be a dick who knows nothing. They had a tentative agreement back in April but dumb Boris put a stop to it, because the oligarchy demanded it.
> 
> Why do you support the oligarchy?  Are you dumb?



Boris CAN'T put a stop to anything, Zelensky's gov makes the final decisions. If you knew anything at all, you'd know that.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Boris CAN'T put a stop to anything, Zelensky's gov makes the final decisions. If you knew anything at all, you'd know that.


Once again you prove an inability to understand what is happening. Ukraine does nothing without the support of the west. Z is a puppet you idiot.


----------



## para bellum

georgephillip said:


> The casualties Ukraine suffered taking Izium and are still experiencing are unsustainable. It was a propaganda victory and little else.
> 
> SCOTT RITTER: Why Russia Will Still Win, Despite Ukraine's Gains
> 
> "Ukraine has exhausted its strategic reserves, and they will have to be reconstituted if Ukraine were to have any aspirations of continuing an advance along these lines.
> 
> "This will take months.
> 
> "Russia, meanwhile, has lost nothing more than some indefensible space.
> 
> "Russian casualties were minimal, and equipment losses readily replaced.
> 
> "Russia has actually strengthened its military posture by creating strong defensive lines in the north capable of withstanding any Ukrainian attack, while increasing combat power available to complete the task of liberating the remainder of the Donetsk People’s Republic under Ukrainian control.
> 
> "Russia has far more strategic depth than Ukraine.
> 
> "Russia is beginning to strike critical infrastructure targets, such as power stations, that will not only cripple the Ukrainian economy, but also their ability to move large amounts of troops rapidly via train.?


This entire narrative is put to bed by the documented equipment losses alone.

Casualties were 9.5:1 in Ukraine's favor, best estimate and in line with the nature of the Russian withdrawal, which was anything but orderly and which the several hundred pieces of captured and destroyed equipment proves.

The 64th MRB is no more. The 4th GTD is no more. The !st Guards Tank Army has lost 50% of it's tanks and IFV's. That will take years to rebuild, based on the rate of Russian tank production since 2010. Ukraine took several hundred POW's in Izium. I saw more POW's in a week than I've seen all war.

Russia lost more than "indefensible space", as the map shows. It lost the entire Belgorod forward supply hub, whose supplies are now being routed through Valuyki. Valuyki is also under threat, which means the next rail hub is Millerovo, and part of _that_ line goes through northern Luhansk Oblast which will be under Ukr control...

And Izium was not "indefensible" it had an internal GLOC with the Russian border in the rear, The Oskil river to the east and the S-D to the Southeast, and they had successfully repelled all attempts by Ukraine to advance since April. The Russian forces collapsed so fast it even took Ukraine by surprise.

*"Russia has actually strengthened its military posture by creating strong defensive lines in the north capable of withstanding any Ukrainian attack, while increasing combat power available to complete the task of liberating the remainder of the Donetsk People’s Republic under Ukrainian control."*

In Ritter's universe, I'm pretty sure Mr. Spock has a beard. Seriously, this is pure nonsense in every respect. Izium was the key to taking the Donbas. That's why the 20th CAA was HQ'd in Izium. When the Russians fled Izium they abandoned any hope of taking Sloviansk and Kramatorsk. You don't abandon 500+ tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, EW/SIGINT systems, command vehicles and FUEL Trucks (the most valuable tactical truck to either side) in an orderly withdrawal.

Not even the Kremlin is trying to portray it as a minor defeat or a restructuring of their force posture. Neither is Grey Zone (Wagner), or Rybar, or Strelkin, or any of the well known Russian milbloggers.

Ritter couldn't hit his own ass with a scoop shovel. So catch up with your dear leader- the defeat is acknowledged, it is a hard one, and the blame is placed on Shoigu and the MoD.

Incidentally, if you think the Kherson offensive was smashed, you are setting yourself up for another disappointment. They've had losses, but nothing approaching the 100-200/day they were taking in June when they were defending Severodonetsk with no ammunition.

And it is Ukraine that is steadily building reserves and replenishing their armor with daily shipments via POLLOGHUB (5,000 tons/day) and captured Russian equipment (250+ pieces at last count, captured intact in the Izium axis). Ukraine is even beginning to rotate some of their forces off the front line, and giving them some time with their families. Not as many as they need to, not yet- but that will get better as the new classes of recruits are added to the active duty rosters. I expect a formalized system of troop rotations by the spring offensive.

Russia is recruiting from prisons and conscripting Ukrainians from the occupied areas if they were dumb enough to accept a Russian passport (which won't get them into Russia, btw). The much vaunted 3rd AC was beat up bad trying to reinforce the Izium group. And btw, it is far from a corp level force by NATO standards, which would mean 3 or 4 divisions and 60-80K troops. The Russian 3rd AC is an undersize Brigade by NATO measure- about 10K at best. And even though they have modern weapons, they only got 10-14 days of training, and have no idea how to use the stuff they were given. They will not affect the combat capability of Russia, they may actually degrade it some (if that is even possible with such a crappy army as Russia has).

You can keep your head in the sand, it makes no difference to Ukraine. This war will not be decided on social media, it will be decided by boots on the ground in Ukraine.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Once again you prove an inability to understand what is happening. Ukraine does nothing without the support of the west. Z is a puppet you idiot.


Moron, Ukraine does not need the West if all it really wanted to do was gift it's lands to Russia.

Not only that, Boris IS NOT THE WEST, he represents UK. French had other ideas and US has been supporting Zelensky's descisions without too much pushback.

And finally, Ukranian descision to fight has now paid off, they have recovered huge swaths of their territories and still pushing Russians out.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Moron, Ukraine does not need the West if all it really wanted to do was gift it's lands to Russia.
> 
> Not only that, Boris IS NOT THE WEST, he represents UK. French had other ideas and US has been supporting Zelensky's descisions without too much pushback.
> 
> And finally, Ukranian descision to fight has now paid off, they have recovered huge swaths of their territories and still pushing Russians out.


Stop posting. You know nothing.


----------



## georgephillip

AZrailwhale said:


> Let's see, Iraq was invading its neighbors, raping and killing civilians and looting Kuwait.  The UN warned Iraq that its conduct was illegal and unacceptable, and Iraq ignored the warning.  The UN unanimously passed Resolution 660 declaring Iraq's annexation of Kuwait illegal and authorizing military action by member nations to expel Iraq.  The second UN/Iraq War was the direct result of Iraq violating no less than nine UN resolutions about Iraq violating the terms of the cease-fire that stopped combat in the first UN/Iraq war.  So Chomsky is full of crap as usual.


US Ambassador April Glaspie's Interview with Pres. Saddam Hussein, July 25 1990
April Glaspie tells Saddam the US will take no position on border disputes between Iraq and Kuwait; what happens next?





Highway of Death - Wikipedia

No country on this planet kills, rapes, mutilates, and displaces civilians as efficiently as the USA.


----------



## georgephillip

AZrailwhale said:


> The second UN/Iraq War was the direct result of Iraq violating no less than nine UN resolutions about Iraq violating the terms of the cease-fire that stopped combat in the first UN/Iraq war. So Chomsky is full of crap as usual.


The Second Iraq War was another war crime based on lies about WMD as Chomsky and every other rational person on the planet knew. How many millions are still being maimed, murdered, and displaced by that abomination? Who's getting rich from the misery?


----------



## Ringo

The US delegation in Geneva recognized the conduct of biological research in Ukraine on low-income citizens and patients of psychiatric hospitals
Do you even understand now, idiots from Ukraine, that you were used for experiments as animals, and your government allowed Washington to do this?


----------



## AntonToo

Ringo said:


> The US delegation in Geneva recognized the conduct of biological research in Ukraine on low-income citizens and patients of psychiatric hospitals
> Do you even understand now, idiots from Ukraine, that you were used for experiments as animals, and your government allowed Washington to do this?



Lol, what are you talking about nutbag? 

What "delegation"? What "biological research"?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Lol, what are you talking about nutbag?
> 
> What "delegation"? What "biological research"?


Nutbag!  You’re the nutbag.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Nutbag!  You’re the nutbag.


Maybe you know wtf our resident Stalin fan is talking about?


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Do you know what Boris over here is talking about?


I know you’re an idiot who thinks Z controls his country and decides independently to continue this war that you love.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I know you’re an idiot who thinks Z


So you don't know wtf Stalin fan here is talking about. You just want to talk back to me, gotcha.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> So you don't know wtf Stalin fan here is talking about. You just want to talk back to me, gotcha.


I know you talk gibberish and fail to understand that you are ignorant of the facts.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> I know you talk gibberish and fail to understand that you are ignorant of the facts.



Ringo (with his hero Stalin in avatar) is talking about "US delegation" supposedly accusing Ukraine of conducting some sort of nafarious "biological research" on it's citizens.

I'm asking him, and now you, wtf he is talking about. No one seems to know, but you are SURE he is not a nutbag.


So what don't you understand? I'll go over it with you a few more times.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Ringo (with his hero Stalin in avatar) is talking about "US delegation" supposedly accusing Ukraine of conducting some sort of nafarious "biological research" on it's citizens.
> 
> I'm asking him, and now you, wtf he is talking about. No one seems to know, but you are SURE he is not a nutbag.
> 
> 
> So what don't you understand? I'll go over it with you a few more times.


Let’s stop this stupid war that only stupid people support. 
Nearly 90 Percent of the World Isn't Following Us on Ukraine | Opinion​Nearly 90 percent of the world isn't following us on Ukraine | Opinion


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Let’s stop this stupid war that only stupid people support.
> Nearly 90 Percent of the World Isn't Following Us on Ukraine | Opinion​


Moron, you can't stop anything. Huge majorities in NATO (and soon to be NATO) countries support millitary aid to Ukraine.









						Americans Support Ukraine "As Long As It Takes"
					

Survey results show the public remains supportive of US assistance to Ukraine—even if it means paying higher gas and food prices at home.




					www.thechicagocouncil.org
				




Majorities continue to support US economic and diplomatic sanctions against Russia (80%), accepting Ukrainian refugees into the United States (76%), providing additional *arms and military supplies to the Ukrainian government (72%)*, and giving economic assistance to Ukraine (71%).
*Nearly four in 10 support sending US troops to defend Ukraine (38%).*

You can take your stupid Chinese and Saudi opinion stats and shove them, nobody who actually makes these descisions cares.

This war will end as soon as Russians, one way or another, roll up their invasion and go home. Ukranians are long past giving away their territory, all Russia can hope for is keeping Crimea.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Let’s stop this stupid war that only stupid people support.
> Nearly 90 Percent of the World Isn't Following Us on Ukraine | Opinion​Nearly 90 percent of the world isn't following us on Ukraine | Opinion


Good idea, negotiations can begin as soon as Russia leaves Ukraine.


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Moron, you can't stop anything. Huge majorities in NATO (and soon to be NATO) countries support millitary aid to Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Americans Support Ukraine "As Long As It Takes"
> 
> 
> Survey results show the public remains supportive of US assistance to Ukraine—even if it means paying higher gas and food prices at home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thechicagocouncil.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Majorities continue to support US economic and diplomatic sanctions against Russia (80%), accepting Ukrainian refugees into the United States (76%), providing additional *arms and military supplies to the Ukrainian government (72%)*, and giving economic assistance to Ukraine (71%).
> *Nearly four in 10 support sending US troops to defend Ukraine (38%).*
> 
> You can take your stupid Chinese and Saudi opinion stats and shove them, nobody who actually makes these descisions cares.
> 
> This war will end as soon as Russians, one way or another, roll up their invasion and go home. Ukranians are long past giving away their territory, all Russia can hope for is keeping Crimea.


Lol. It’s an opinion piece in an establishment publication that has merit. Only dumb people like you always support war.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Good idea, negotiations can begin as soon as Russia leaves Ukraine.


They aren’t going do that and you know it. So you’re cool with lots of dead Ukrainians, who you want to fight to the last man. Chicken hawk!


----------



## AZrailwhale

alexa said:


> OK the 2nd Iraq war is what he is speaking of
> 
> Well then it is a pity that the US and UK did not hear the UN saying that it was an illegal war. I heard nothing about Iraq  violating 9 UN resolutions but I do know that we in the UK were told that Iraq had WMD's which could reach the UK in 45 minutes and so we must go to war with them to stop this and I do know that one of our intelligence officers said that when they told the British Government that they could find no evidence of Iraq being a danger to us - that Iran was very definitely more of a danger, they were told to create information which could be used to justify a war. So lets be clear the Iraq war was fought because the UK and US wanted to fight.  Chomsky is talking of misusing the word Genocide.  He says


Look it up.  A simple google search or a look at WIKKI will show you.  There were more than nine that he violated, but those nine were directly related to the cease-fire.


----------



## AZrailwhale

georgephillip said:


> Any white supremacy in their national Ukrainian state?
> The US has enough home grown racists to bother with any corrupt, foreign-born master race loons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Yaroslav Stetsko with then-Vice President George H.W. Bush"
> 
> Ukraine: The CIA’s 75-year-old Proxy | MR Online
> 
> "Looking back, the U.S. under Truman began the policy of turning enemies (Germany, Japan) into friends and friends (the important war-time alliance with the USSR) into enemies.
> 
> "The CIA, established in 1947, was the main clandestine instrument of this policy, *working closely with the neo-Nazi Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) to carry out acts to sabotage, divide and destabilize the Soviet state.*
> 
> "The OUN, in particular the faction led by the German ally Stepan Bandera and his second in command, Yaroslav Stetsko, OUN-B, was a violently anti-semitic, anti-communist, and anti-Russian organization, which collaborated with the Nazi occupation and actively participated in the slaughter of millions of Poles, Ukrainian Jews, and ethnically Russian and Ukrainian communists in the region.
> 
> "Nonetheless, _The_ _Washington Post_ treated Stetsko as a national hero, a 'lonely patriot.'"


The USSR was NEVER a friend of the west, nor an actual ally.  Stalin was only in the war because he had no choice and spent the war blackmailing FDR and Churchill for ever larger amounts of support.  The USSR fought its own war and almost never cooperated with the WAllies, and then reluctantly while treating their personnel on Russian soil like prisoners and pariahs.


----------



## ESay

para bellum said:


> I think that whatever the EU does on the economic front, NATO will always include Poland and Romania and the Balts. Poland will be the military powerhouse, and it is all NATO (or NATO pattern) kit. Ukraine is already moving that direction as far as becoming NATO compliant.
> 
> So some time in the future, the US has abandoned Europe as much as possible, there remains a revitalized NATO that includes Ukraine. If not, then Ukraine has the regional alliance with Poland and the Balts and Romania and Moldova, and everyone but Moldova is armed to the teeth.
> 
> And really, NATO does not want another security alliance in Europe, especially when there would be member states that are also NATO member states. They would much rather have Ukraine in NATO, where they would have more influence over Ukraine.
> 
> Security-wise, Ukraine is safe from another invasion from the east. Economy-wise, is it safe from Germany?
> 
> A rebuilt Ukraine, with all the industry and energy and raw materials (and cheap labor) is a direct industrial competitor to Germany. How that plays out is anyone's guess, but I can certainly imagine German companies squalling and bawling about having to compete with Ukrainian steel mills and heavy industry. I think about Turkey, and it seems like full EU membership on an equal footing is probably a heavier lift for Ukraine than joining NATO...


Ukraine in no way can be an industrial competitor to Germany. Raw materials and cheap labour aren't the only things the industrial might is based upon.

Foe me it is understandable that some sort of anti-Russia military alliance will be formed in Europe. What countries it will be comprised of in a long run is a point of debate. And question still stands whether say Germany and France will want to be in it.

For Eastern Europe it is better to be a part of united Europe. And that is not only about a common economy.


----------



## AntonToo

gipper said:


> Lol. It’s an opinion piece in an establishment publication that has merit. Only dumb people like you always support war.


Every poll conducted since the invasion began shows this.

You are just grasping at straws. Denial is all you've got dummy.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

AlexanderPK said:


> Well, the reasonable ones have been silent for a while so I thought only the rats remained. Sorry.


*Silenced, Not "Silent."  For Awhile.*


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> They aren’t going do that and you know it. So you’re cool with lots of dead Ukrainians, who you want to fight to the last man. Chicken hawk!


Russia will leave because it has no other choice, and you are pushing for a peace treaty because you understand Russia cannot win without one.  Putin's last desperate hope is that the EU will break over the lack of Russian gas over the winter, but this struggle will only bring the European countries closer and more determined to see Russia defeated.  

Putin is now looking at the prospect of leaving office in disgrace and leaving Russia much worse off than when he rose to power, so with every Russian defeat he will talk tougher, destroy more civilian infrastructure in Ukraine and kill more Ukrainian civilians, but he cannot win the war and Russia cannot afford to continue it indefinitely, so they will leave Ukraine.


----------



## georgephillip

AntonToo said:


> Nope! What we lack is the stupidity to belive such ludecrous propaganda.
> 
> Not in the wildest dreams did US forsee Putin's regime expanding NATO, crippling Russian exports to EU, and destroying itself in the way that it's doing now with this insane, half-assed invasion.
> 
> It's pure self-ejection for Putin.


NATO expansion and an illegal coup spearheaded by Nazis inn 2014 are responsible for the 20,000 casualties a month on the Ukrainian side today.

When Zelensky arrives in Texas to meet with US defense contractors' CEOs, will you be there?

Who’s winning the war in Ukraine? | The Strategist

"Since the late 1990s, America’s major defence contractors have advocated expanding NATO, *despite a near-universal consensus among high-level US security officials that enlargement was unnecessarily provocative and would likely trigger the resurgence of Russian revisionist nationalism.*

"Enlargement, it turned out, was driven mainly by domestic political considerations. 

"Dan Rostenkowski, the chair of the House Ways and Means Committee until 1994 and an outspoken member of the Polish lobby in Congress, threatened to obstruct budget and other legislation unless NATO enlargement included Poland.

"The arms lobby cheered. Following the end of the Cold War, defence contractors hoped enlargement would offset shrinking demand by creating a new market for their products. 

"The US Committee to Expand NATO—an advocacy organisation founded in 1996 by Bruce L. Jackson, then the director of strategic planning at Lockheed Martin—was practically a creation of the defence industry."


----------



## gipper

AntonToo said:


> Every poll conducted since the invasion began shows this.
> 
> You are just grasping at straws. Denial is all you've got dummy.


?


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> Russia will leave because it has no other choice, and you are pushing for a peace treaty because you understand Russia cannot win without one.  Putin's last desperate hope is that the EU will break over the lack of Russian gas over the winter, but this struggle will only bring the European countries closer and more determined to see Russia defeated.
> 
> Putin is now looking at the prospect of leaving office in disgrace and leaving Russia much worse off than when he rose to power, so with every Russian defeat he will talk tougher, destroy more civilian infrastructure in Ukraine and kill more Ukrainian civilians, but he cannot win the war and Russia cannot afford to continue it indefinitely, so they will leave Ukraine.


Lol. You actually believe that?  Lol


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

gipper said:


> Lol. It’s an opinion piece in an establishment publication that has merit. Only dumb people like you always support war.


*Their First Reality Check That Didn't Bounce*

The only reason _Newsweek _would wake up is that the spontaneous combustion of the lying printed page is starting to smolder.


----------



## AZrailwhale

BackAgain said:


> Nope. Entirely beside the point.
> 
> This isn’t a dissertation on your miscomprehension of history and Vietnam.


So, explain to us exactly when troops of the RVN invaded the PRVN.  I'll give you a clue, it never happened.  On the other hand, organized troops of the NVA invaded the RVN as early as 1964 and continued to operate there in division strength or larger until the Tet offensive in 1968.  In 1972 a retrained and re-equipped NVA launched a massive invasion called the Easter Offensive that first gained ground and then was decisively defeated by a combination of American air power and ARVN attacks on the ground. The NVA lost half of the two hundred thousand men it committed to the Easter Offensive.  That loss and the success of the Linebacker bombing campaign to isolate the PRVN from its Communist Chinese and Soviet supplies resulted in the peace treaty signed at the Paris Peace talks.  That ended the Vietnam War after nearly a decade of active combat.  The Soviets then rebuilt the NVA into a modern, armor heavy combined arms army and the NVA launched its first and final offensive in a new war on 4 March 1975.  Many people combine the two wars into one, but the existence of a signed peace treaty makes that a stupid position.  If you hold that position, you have to hold the position that there was never a WWII, it weas merely a continuation of WWI.


----------



## toomuchtime_

gipper said:


> Lol. You actually believe that?  Lol


We both believe it; that's why you are pushing so hard for a negotiated peace, because you understand that's the only way Russia can avoid defeat.


----------



## AZrailwhale

AlexanderPK said:


> Divide them by 10. That'll be the ballpark.


Given the lack of reality in Soviet/Russian casualty figures in past wars and conflicts, it's more like to be accurate to MULTIPLY the figures by 10.


----------



## BackAgain

AZrailwhale said:


> So, explain to us exactly when troops of the RVN invaded the PRVN.  I'll give you a clue, it never happened.  On the other hand, organized troops of the NVA invaded the RVN as early as 1964 and continued to operate there in division strength or larger until the Tet offensive in 1968.  In 1972 a retrained and re-equipped NVA launched a massive invasion called the Easter Offensive that first gained ground and then was decisively defeated by a combination of American air power and ARVN attacks on the ground. The NVA lost half of the two hundred thousand men it committed to the Easter Offensive.  That loss and the success of the Linebacker bombing campaign to isolate the PRVN from its Communist Chinese and Soviet supplies resulted in the peace treaty signed at the Paris Peace talks.  That ended the Vietnam War after nearly a decade of active combat.  The Soviets then rebuilt the NVA into a modern, armor heavy combined arms army and the NVA launched its first and final offensive in a new war on 4 March 1975.  Many people combine the two wars into one, but the existence of a signed peace treaty makes that a stupid position.  If you hold that position, you have to hold the position that there was never a WWII, it weas merely a continuation of WWI.


I think all your posting efforts belong in a Vietnam thread. Or a history thread. But they have zero applicability here.


----------



## AZrailwhale

georgephillip said:


> US Ambassador April Glaspie's Interview with Pres. Saddam Hussein, July 25 1990
> April Glaspie tells Saddam the US will take no position on border disputes between Iraq and Kuwait; what happens next?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Highway of Death - Wikipedia
> 
> No country on this planet kills, rapes, mutilates, and displaces civilians as efficiently as the USA.


Yes she said that.  She said NOTHING about allowing Iraq to invade Kuwait.  And your last sentence is nonsense.  The US goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian deaths.  The photo you posted is of the "road of death" where US airpower destroyed the retreating Iraqi army.  That was a perfectly legal and legitimate act of war.  The Iraqis were the ones killing and raping civilians in Kuwait, as well as stealing everything not solidly set in concrete, not the US forces.


----------



## AZrailwhale

georgephillip said:


> US Ambassador April Glaspie's Interview with Pres. Saddam Hussein, July 25 1990
> April Glaspie tells Saddam the US will take no position on border disputes between Iraq and Kuwait; what happens next?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Highway of Death - Wikipedia
> 
> No country on this planet kills, rapes, mutilates, and displaces civilians as efficiently as the USA.


If you had bother to actually read the article you linked to, it clearly says that was a military convoy and the people killed were Saddam's SOLDIERS.


----------



## AZrailwhale

gipper said:


> Let’s stop this stupid war that only stupid people support.
> Nearly 90 Percent of the World Isn't Following Us on Ukraine | Opinion​Nearly 90 percent of the world isn't following us on Ukraine | Opinion


That's a OPINION PIECE. The author can say anything he wants.  If "nearly 90 percent" of the world is against the economic sanctions, why haven't they done anything about them?  They haven't gone to the U.N., they haven't levied sanctions against the countries sanctioning Russia.


----------



## AZrailwhale

BackAgain said:


> I think all your posting efforts belong in a Vietnam thread. Or a history thread. But they have zero applicability here.


run away, you are the one that brought it up.


----------



## gipper

toomuchtime_ said:


> We both believe it; that's why you are pushing so hard for a negotiated peace, because you understand that's the only way Russia can avoid defeat.


Lol. You think I support Russia. Typical ignorance.


----------



## gipper

AZrailwhale said:


> That's a OPINION PIECE. The author can say anything he wants.  If "nearly 90 percent" of the world is against the economic sanctions, why haven't they done anything about them?  They haven't gone to the U.N., they haven't levied sanctions against the countries sanctioning Russia.


Yeah I know and it’s accurate.
Post in thread 'i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..'
i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> Anton was conflating Rick Scott and Scott Ritter. Yes, Rick Scott is one of the stronger GOP voices on Ukraine's side.
> 
> Ritter is the pedo, and a Putin apologist who hasn't been right on Ukraine yet...


What "pedo" convictions has Ritter received, and why would they affect his ability to analyze the special military operation in Ukraine?

Scott Ritter - Wikipedia

*"William Scott Ritter Jr.* (born July 15, 1961) is a former United States Marine Corps intelligence officer and convicted sex offender. 

"He served with the United Nations implementing arms control treaties, with General Norman Schwarzkopf in the Persian Gulf during Operation Desert Storm, and in Iraq, overseeing the disarmament of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), as a United Nations weapons inspector, from 1991 to 1998. 

"He later became a critic of United States foreign policy in the Middle East."


----------



## georgephillip

AlexanderPK said:


> The usual bullshit they resort to when there's a need to get rid of someone they don't like no more.


Ritter's military/intelligence background make him uniquely qualified to accurately assess what's happening on the ground in Ukraine which, of course, makes him an enemy to the flag-flappers and corporate war-whores backing the latest US proxy war in Ukraine.

The Covert Operation to Back Ukrainian Independence that Haunts the CIA

"In 1980, Ritter served in the U.S. Army as a private. 

"Then, in May 1984, he was commissioned as an intelligence officer in the United States Marine Corps. He served in this capacity for about 12 years.[3] 

"He served as the lead analyst for the Marine Corps Rapid Deployment Force concerning the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Iran–Iraq War.

"Ritter's academic work focused on the Basmachi resistance movement in Soviet Central Asia during the 1920s and 1930s, and on the Basmachi commanders Fazail Maksum and Ibrahim Bek.[4][5]

"During Desert Storm, he served as a ballistic missile advisor to General Norman Schwarzkopf. Ritter later worked as a security and military consultant for the Fox News network. 

"Ritter also had 'a long relationship [...] of an official nature' with the UK's foreign intelligence spy agency MI6 according to an interview he gave to _Democracy Now!_ in 2003."

Scott Ritter - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip

toomuchtime_ said:


> On the other hand


What ties to the US defense industry does Petraeus have? 

Do you think they color his willingness to tell more lies to the American people?

Cable News Military Experts Are on the Defense Industry Dole

"Cable hosts described these guests by their military credentials — not their current jobs as representatives of the defense industry, a sector that has seen extraordinary profits from the 20-year occupation of Afghanistan.



"Related​"$10,000 Invested in Defense Stocks When Afghanistan War Began Now Worth Almost $100,000​
"Petraeus, a retired four-star general who leaked classified information to his mistress and biographer, serves on the board of Optiv Security a large cybersecurity firm that contracts with the Department of Defense, and is a partner at KKR and Co., a global private equity firm with assets in the defense sector. 

"In early 2020, KKR bought Novaria Group, a corporation holding a growing number of aerospace manufacturers."


----------



## gipper

AZrailwhale said:


> That's a OPINION PIECE. The author can say anything he wants.  If "nearly 90 percent" of the world is against the economic sanctions, why haven't they done anything about them?  They haven't gone to the U.N., they haven't levied sanctions against the countries sanctioning Russia.


----------



## Toro

gipper said:


>



Anti-American posts anti-American stuff.


----------



## gipper

Toro said:


> Anti-American posts anti-American stuff.


You’ve been duped by your government, but too dumb to know it.


----------



## BackAgain

AZrailwhale said:


> run away, you are the one that brought it up.


As a quick analogy. Not as a thread topic. 

Go peddle your wares on the proper thread.


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> This entire narrative is put to bed by the documented equipment losses alone.
> 
> Casualties were 9.5:1 in Ukraine's favor, best estimate and in line with the nature of the Russian withdrawal, which was anything but orderly and which the several hundred pieces of captured and destroyed equipment proves.


Documented by whom?

How is it possible Ukraine incapacitated ~10 Russians for every Ukrainian casualty when Russians have a 10:1 advantage in artillery?

Why Ukraine struggles to combat Russia’s artillery superiority

*"The disproportion between the number of Russian and Ukrainian pieces deployed to a particular front line area can go as far as 10 to 1. *

"But the acquisition of Western artillery, which is technologically superior to older Soviet pieces used by Russia, has saved Ukraine’s defensive campaign."


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> Izium was the key to taking the Donbas. That's why the 20th CAA was HQ'd in Izium. When the Russians fled Izium they abandoned any hope of taking Sloviansk and Kramatorsk. Y


How long do you expect Ukrainians to hold Izium?


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> You don't abandon 500+ tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, EW/SIGINT systems, command vehicles and FUEL Trucks (the most valuable tactical truck to either side) in an orderly withdrawal.


Where did you find those numbers?


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> Ritter couldn't hit his own ass with a scoop shovel. So catch up with your dear leader- the defeat is acknowledged, it is a hard one, and the blame is placed on Shoigu and the MoD.


Do you agree with Ritter when he says Russia is no longer fighting a Ukrainian army supported by NATO but rather a NATO army manned by Ukrainians?

If so, is that not a war between NATO and Russia in Ukraine?


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> You can keep your head in the sand, it makes no difference to Ukraine. This war will not be decided on social media, it will be decided by boots on the ground in Ukraine.


When do you expect Ukrainians to liberate Crimea?


----------



## gipper

How many Ukrainians and Russians must die to appease western oligarchs and the MIC?

Has there ever been another war in recent times so easily avoided?

America’s Culture of Death​_It has now become clear that the Pentagon has been maneuvering into giving Russia another “Vietnam,” just as it lured the Soviet Union into invading Afghanistan in 1979. *For the past 25 years, Russian officials have been telling the United States that their “red line” was Ukraine.* If NATO were to absorb Ukraine, that would entitle the Pentagon to install its nuclear missiles on Russia’s border, pointed at Moscow, St. Petersburg, and other Russian cities. Russia’s position was made clear: It would never permit that to happen. To prevent it from happening, Russia’s officials repeatedly stated, Russia would invade Ukraine to effect regime change.

*Knowing this, U.S. officials continued on course, knowing full-well that Russia wasn’t bluffing*. In fact, it is now clear that U.S. officials have been training and arming the Ukrainian military for years in preparation for what they knew was coming — the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

*The result has been a massive number of deaths, not only among the Ukrainian military and civilians but also among the Russian military.* Not surprisingly, there has been a tremendous amount of exaltation among U.S. officials and the mainstream press over the thousands of Russian soldiers who have been killed in the conflict. They call the deaths of those soldiers “degrading Russia,” which has obviously been the aim from the beginning._
America’s Culture of Death - LewRockwell


----------



## Ringo

Where is Ukraine?


----------



## alexa

AZrailwhale said:


> Look it up.  A simple google search or a look at WIKKI will show you.  There were more than nine that he violated, but those nine were directly related to the cease-fire.


so that is why you were starving the children of Iraq - both starving them and making it so that they could not get hospital treatment. 500,000 children's deaths were what Madelaine Albright said and well worth it. This was caused by your sanctions.

This however was not the reason given for attacking Iraq.  The reason given was made up lies about Iraq being a threat to the UK, for all I know the US as well.  This was an illegal war waged for some alternative reason Possibly to help Israel.
_A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm44_​and

_https://www.juancole.com/2015/08/theyre-neoconservatives-netanyahu.html_


----------



## Ringo

American agricultural giants Cargill, Dupont and German-Austrian, and in fact (by the share of capital investments) American Monsanto currently own 17 million hectares of arable land in Ukraine, which is 52.31 percent of all agricultural territories of the country.
Provided that more than half of the Ukrainian fertile land belongs only to these three American corporations, the statement of the current US President Joe Biden about the need to export 20 million tons of grain from Ukraine no longer seems so absurd. Do not forget that the main shareholders of the agrarian troika are Vanguard, Blackrock and Blackstone, who control almost everything, including the world's major banking and financial institutions.
And the interests of companies of this level should be satisfied by any means and in any case, whether it is a political lobby or a military operation.

According to the ex-deputy of the Bundestag from the Left faction Nima Movassat, a real hunt has already begun on the part of foreign agricultural holdings for Ukrainian fertile land: a massive seizure of agricultural land is taking place in the country according to gray schemes through fake individuals and companies. The politician directly accuses the enterprises producing and selling genetically modified seeds of Monsanto Somrapa and DuPont of the deliberate seizure of Ukrainian fertile land and links the IMF and EBRD loans provided to Ukraine with the transfer of arable land to Western agro-industrial companies, including German ADM Germany, KWS, Bayer and BASF.

After the introduction of the law on the opening of the market , another 5 percent of Ukrainian arable land was acquired by representatives of the People 's Republic of China .
In addition, numerous foreign companies are constantly acquiring Ukrainian holdings of arable land lease, thereby controlling about 10 percent of Ukrainian territories even before the introduction of the new law.
The owners of the largest agricultural holdings at the moment are the Americans (NCH Capital), the French (AgroGeneration) and the Saudis (Saudi Agricultural and Livestock Investment Company (SALIC)).

According to the Strategic Culture Foundation, "it is impossible to track the exact share of foreign capital in the rest of the largest Ukrainian agricultural holdings due to the predominance of gray schemes in the Ukrainian agricultural industry and the lack of a normal land cadastre."
According to Ukrainian financial analyst Oleksiy Kutsa, quoted on the pages of the same Strategic Culture Foundation, the struggle for Ukrainian arable land is now not even in Ukraine, where the state could still have at least some chance to make money on the liberalization of the agricultural market, but on the market of offshore corporate rights to Ukrainian agricultural enterprises, where instead of land ready-made companies are being bought up.
As a result, according to the expert, "Ukraine will get nothing," and "Ukrainian land will be bought under palm trees."
At one time, the president of the Ukrainian Cooperative Alliance, economist Zinovy Svereda, said that Ukrainian lands along the border with Russia should be sold to American companies so that the latter would get even more interest in protecting their "patrimony": "I would personally say – let's sell the border territories of Sumy and Kharkiv regions to American companies as much as possible, because American troops they come where there is American private property, where there is their interest." At the same time, the Commissioner of the President of Ukraine for Land Issues at that time, Roman Leshchenko, called the sale of land to Russian citizens impossible, saying that in this case the authorities would be forced to resort to confiscation.


----------



## alexa

Ringo said:


> American agricultural giants Cargill, Dupont and German-Austrian, and in fact (by the share of capital investments) American Monsanto currently own 17 million hectares of arable land in Ukraine, which is 52.31 percent of all agricultural territories of the country.
> Provided that more than half of the Ukrainian fertile land belongs only to these three American corporations, the statement of the current US President Joe Biden about the need to export 20 million tons of grain from Ukraine no longer seems so absurd. Do not forget that the main shareholders of the agrarian troika are Vanguard, Blackrock and Blackstone, who control almost everything, including the world's major banking and financial institutions.
> And the interests of companies of this level should be satisfied by any means and in any case, whether it is a political lobby or a military operation.
> 
> According to the ex-deputy of the Bundestag from the Left faction Nima Movassat, a real hunt has already begun on the part of foreign agricultural holdings for Ukrainian fertile land: a massive seizure of agricultural land is taking place in the country according to gray schemes through fake individuals and companies. The politician directly accuses the enterprises producing and selling genetically modified seeds of Monsanto Somrapa and DuPont of the deliberate seizure of Ukrainian fertile land and links the IMF and EBRD loans provided to Ukraine with the transfer of arable land to Western agro-industrial companies, including German ADM Germany, KWS, Bayer and BASF.
> 
> After the introduction of the law on the opening of the market , another 5 percent of Ukrainian arable land was acquired by representatives of the People 's Republic of China .
> In addition, numerous foreign companies are constantly acquiring Ukrainian holdings of arable land lease, thereby controlling about 10 percent of Ukrainian territories even before the introduction of the new law.
> The owners of the largest agricultural holdings at the moment are the Americans (NCH Capital), the French (AgroGeneration) and the Saudis (Saudi Agricultural and Livestock Investment Company (SALIC)).
> 
> According to the Strategic Culture Foundation, "it is impossible to track the exact share of foreign capital in the rest of the largest Ukrainian agricultural holdings due to the predominance of gray schemes in the Ukrainian agricultural industry and the lack of a normal land cadastre."
> According to Ukrainian financial analyst Oleksiy Kutsa, quoted on the pages of the same Strategic Culture Foundation, the struggle for Ukrainian arable land is now not even in Ukraine, where the state could still have at least some chance to make money on the liberalization of the agricultural market, but on the market of offshore corporate rights to Ukrainian agricultural enterprises, where instead of land ready-made companies are being bought up.
> As a result, according to the expert, "Ukraine will get nothing," and "Ukrainian land will be bought under palm trees."
> At one time, the president of the Ukrainian Cooperative Alliance, economist Zinovy Svereda, said that Ukrainian lands along the border with Russia should be sold to American companies so that the latter would get even more interest in protecting their "patrimony": "I would personally say – let's sell the border territories of Sumy and Kharkiv regions to American companies as much as possible, because American troops they come where there is American private property, where there is their interest." At the same time, the Commissioner of the President of Ukraine for Land Issues at that time, Roman Leshchenko, called the sale of land to Russian citizens impossible, saying that in this case the authorities would be forced to resort to confiscation.


so a country which was known as the most fertile in Europe and which Germany attacked for that has in reality sold that land that they fought to keep mainly to American's   but also a German Company.  huh uh, we get another idea of why the US may be wanting to stop Russia getting in.

This is just too sad...and it says Ukraine will get no money.  Still not too sure how they managed that and make it just corporations selling to corporations but this is beyond awful.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

AZrailwhale said:


> Yes she said that.  She said NOTHING about allowing Iraq to invade Kuwait.  And your last sentence is nonsense.  The US goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian deaths.  The photo you posted is of the "road of death" where US airpower destroyed the retreating Iraqi army.  That was a perfectly legal and legitimate act of war.  The Iraqis were the ones killing and raping civilians in Kuwait, as well as stealing everything not solidly set in concrete, not the US forces.


*There No Such Thing As a "Non-Combatant" in a Combat Zone.  *

"Civilians" is a concept created by pacifist cowards and traitors.  So it doesn't matter if there were "civilians" in that picture. 

 What matters is that Kuwait has been a part of Iraq (Mesopotamia) for 6,000 years and the Ukraine has been a part of Russia since 1654.  Both Iraq and Russia could have been our allies against Iran if the Globalists hadn't wanted to colonize them.


----------



## georgephillip

AZrailwhale said:


> The USSR was NEVER a friend of the west, nor an actual ally.  Stalin was only in the war because he had no choice and spent the war blackmailing FDR and Churchill for ever larger amounts of support.  The USSR fought its own war and almost never cooperated with the WAllies, and then reluctantly while treating their personnel on Russian soil like prisoners and pariahs.


What if Operation Barbarossa had come to the US?



Stalin fought nearly 200 German divisions.
The allies fought around a dozen.
Twenty million Soviet citizens died defending their homes against 3.8 million Axis military personnel (the largest invasion force in history) along a 1800 mile front.
The Russians won WWII, and Truman thanked them with a Cold War.
Ukraine is just the latest chapter in that capitali$t clu$ter-fuck.

Operation Barbarossa - Wikipedia


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

alexa said:


> so a country which was known as the most fertile in Europe and which Germany attacked for that has in reality sold that land that they fought to keep mainly to American's   but also a German Company.  huh uh, we get another idea of why the US may be wanting to stop Russia getting in.
> 
> This is just too sad...and it says Ukraine will get no money.  Still not too sure how they managed that and make it just corporations selling to corporations but this is beyond awful.


*And Away We Go*

Outsourcing is also corporate treason, so what do you expect from Bizz Skule Bozos who are mentally incapable of making money except by beyond-awful cheating?


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

gipper said:


> You’ve been duped by your government, but too dumb to know it.


*Demonic Creatures Use Both a Pentagram and a Pentagon*


----------



## georgephillip

AZrailwhale said:


> Yes she said that.  She said NOTHING about allowing Iraq to invade Kuwait.  And your last sentence is nonsense.  The US goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian deaths.  The photo you posted is of the "road of death" where US airpower destroyed the retreating Iraqi army.  That was a perfectly legal and legitimate act of war.  The Iraqis were the ones killing and raping civilians in Kuwait, as well as stealing everything not solidly set in concrete, not the US forces.


The US has killed millions of civilians on the opposite side of the planet from DC.
Name another country in history to match that level of indifference to civilian deaths.
The Highway of Death murdered retreating forces which posed no threat to American killers.
How's the rape rate in the US armed forces?


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

Ringo said:


> Where is Ukraine?


*"My Crane Be Liftin' Trump's Fat Ass Out of Mallow Largo and Droppin' Him in Dah Hood"*


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

alexa said:


> This was an illegal war waged for some alternative reason



*London Bridge Is Falling Down, Falling Down, Falling Down*

Iraq was attacked for flooding the market with oil (in order to finance its war against Iran), thereby lowering the profits of British Petroleum petrocrats.


----------



## Ringo

AZrailwhale said:


> Stalin was only in the war because he had no choice and spent the war blackmailing FDR and Churchill for ever larger amounts of support.  The USSR fought its own war and almost never cooperated with the Allies, and then reluctantly


Is that what they taught you at indoctrination school? You know. who is the real ally? Not the one who sells weapons, but the one who helps allies with weapons in his hands. The Allies promised to open a Second Front in 1942, 1943 and only in 1944 they landed in Normandy. When Stalin promised Roosevelt that the USSR would begin hostilities against Japan three months after the end of the war in Europe, he fulfilled this promise verbatim. May 9, 1945 -August 9, 1945. This is an ally that anyone would like to have.


----------



## georgephillip

AZrailwhale said:


> If you had bother to actually read the article you linked to, it clearly says that was a military convoy and the people killed were Saddam's SOLDIERS.







George H.W. Bush’s complicity in the 1991 “Highway of Death” massacre - Liberation News

_ "'statesman' and 'American hero'? 

"What a lie! 

"When George H.W. Bush was president he ordered the massacre of Iraqi soldiers *after the ceasefire in 1991*, and after he had promised them safe passage out of Kuwait. 

"This article, which went viral after the war, exposed Bush as a mass murderer and war criminal, directly involved in the 'Highway of Death' 

*"He is a 'hero' only to Big Oil and the Wall Street financial empire. *

"This account was assembled by the author and presented by her at a tribunal examining U.S. war crimes. It is still cited around the world on anniversaries of this war._

"I want to give testimony on what are called the 'highways of death.' 

"These are the two Kuwaiti roadways, littered with remains of 2,000 mangled Iraqi military vehicles, and the charred and dismembered bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, *who were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 in compliance with UN resolutions."*


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> How many Ukrainians and Russians must die to appease western oligarchs and the MIC?
> 
> Has there ever been another war in recent times so easily avoided?
> 
> America’s Culture of Death​_It has now become clear that the Pentagon has been maneuvering into giving Russia another “Vietnam,” just as it lured the Soviet Union into invading Afghanistan in 1979. *For the past 25 years, Russian officials have been telling the United States that their “red line” was Ukraine.* If NATO were to absorb Ukraine, that would entitle the Pentagon to install its nuclear missiles on Russia’s border, pointed at Moscow, St. Petersburg, and other Russian cities. Russia’s position was made clear: It would never permit that to happen. To prevent it from happening, Russia’s officials repeatedly stated, Russia would invade Ukraine to effect regime change.
> 
> *Knowing this, U.S. officials continued on course, knowing full-well that Russia wasn’t bluffing*. In fact, it is now clear that U.S. officials have been training and arming the Ukrainian military for years in preparation for what they knew was coming — the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
> 
> *The result has been a massive number of deaths, not only among the Ukrainian military and civilians but also among the Russian military.* Not surprisingly, there has been a tremendous amount of exaltation among U.S. officials and the mainstream press over the thousands of Russian soldiers who have been killed in the conflict. They call the deaths of those soldiers “degrading Russia,” which has obviously been the aim from the beginning._
> America’s Culture of Death - LewRockwell


Your link:

"Consider all the deaths that have come from U.S. sanctions and embargoes. 

"The sanctions against Iraq brought about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. Yes, children! 

"Recall the outrage arising out of the deaths of those 19 children in Uvalde. 

"There was never any such outrage for the killing of those hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq. 

"There is a simple reason for that: The killings of the Iraqi children are part of our national culture of death."

The US launched its national culture of death with genocide from sea the shining sea; it's hardly surprising many Americans today worship mass murder when it's done for the "national $ecurity."


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> Your link:
> 
> "Consider all the deaths that have come from U.S. sanctions and embargoes.
> 
> "The sanctions against Iraq brought about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. Yes, children!
> 
> "Recall the outrage arising out of the deaths of those 19 children in Uvalde.
> 
> "There was never any such outrage for the killing of those hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq.
> 
> "There is a simple reason for that: The killings of the Iraqi children are part of our national culture of death."
> 
> The US launched its national culture of death with genocide from sea the shining sea; it's hardly surprising many Americans today worship mass murder when it's done for the "national $ecurity."


The actions of the USG are appalling, yet few Americans think so. In fact, pointing out these truths gets one labeled a traitor. It’s shameful.


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> Your link:
> 
> "Consider all the deaths that have come from U.S. sanctions and embargoes.
> 
> "The sanctions against Iraq brought about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. Yes, children!
> 
> "Recall the outrage arising out of the deaths of those 19 children in Uvalde.
> 
> "There was never any such outrage for the killing of those hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq.
> 
> "There is a simple reason for that: The killings of the Iraqi children are part of our national culture of death."
> 
> The US launched its national culture of death with genocide from sea the shining sea; it's hardly surprising many Americans today worship mass murder when it's done for the "national $ecurity."


Also at that link…

_President Kennedy had a remarkable ability to put himself into the shoes of an adversary to determine what it was that was motivating him to act. Kennedy figured out that what the Soviets and Cubans were trying to do was prevent the United States from again invading Cuba in an effort to oust the Castro regime from power. He figured that if he guaranteed that the United States would not invade Cuba again, the Soviets would be willing to remove their weapons. His offer was accepted by the Soviets, except for one thing: The Soviets wanted the United States to remove its missiles in Turkey that were pointed at Russia. Understanding the hypocrisy of the United States’ position, Kennedy agreed to remove the missiles. The crisis was resolved.

That’s what could have been done in Ukraine to avoid all those deaths of Ukrainians and Russians alike. All that needed to be done to avoid the conflict was an agreement in which NATO would not absorb Ukraine. But unfortunately, Joe Biden is no John Kennedy. The result has been thousands of unnecessary deaths, including both Ukrainians and Russians._

Unfortunately we don’t have a president like JFK, who sought world peace. We have a demented old warmonger who just might instigate nuclear war.


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## georgephillip

gipper said:


> That’s what could have been done in Ukraine to avoid all those deaths of Ukrainians and Russians alike. All that needed to be done to avoid the conflict was an agreement in which NATO would not absorb Ukraine. But unfortunately, Joe Biden is no John Kennedy. The result has been thousands of unnecessary deaths, including both Ukrainians and Russians


Imho, Ukraine is seen as the key to opening Russia to another round of looting like we saw in the 1990s. Western investors and their political puppets couldn't care less about dead Ukrainians, Russians, Europeans, or Americans for that matter as long as they get their blood-spattered ROI.




What would happen if Russia Balkanized?


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## The Sage of Main Street

Ringo said:


> Is that what they taught you at indoctrination school? You know. who is the real ally? Not the one who sells weapons, but the one who helps allies with weapons in his hands. The Allies promised to open a Second Front in 1942, 1943 and only in 1944 they landed in Normandy. When Stalin promised Roosevelt that the USSR would begin hostilities against Japan three months after the end of the war in Europe, he fulfilled this promise verbatim. May 9, 1945 -August 9, 1945. This is an ally that anyone would like to have.


*Stalin's Winning Draw-Play Strategy*

The Russians, under the invincible Marshal Zhukov, defeated the Japanese at the Battle of Khalkhin Gol, in Mongolia, way back in July, 1939.  Its most important historical importance is that it reveals the lie historians tell us about Stalin's imaginary holding back those troops from entering the war against Germany in 1941 because of a fear of being attacked by Japan.  Historians, even Alexander Solzhenitsyn, are also completely misleading when they push the nonsense that Stalin had trusted Hitler, which is totally against Stalin's paranoiac character. He provoked the blitzkrieg and faked a retreat so that the Nazi army would be too far from supply lines by the time they reached the major Russian cities.


----------



## para bellum

ESay said:


> Ukraine in no way can be an industrial competitor to Germany. Raw materials and cheap labour aren't the only things the industrial might is based upon.


Sorry ESay, I meant to get back to you about this earlier.

I've spent more than 4 decades in manufacturing. I have a pretty good sense of it. We were chomping at the bit in the early '90's to get into eastern Europe, but the corruption was just too much to deal with. And we weren't inexperienced in that regard- we were already doing business in Mexico and South America, which requires certain payoffs to get the necessary permissions. It was the same thing, but on steroids in Eastern Europe in the early '90's.

Ukraine was one of the main centers of gravity for manufacturing for the USSR. It's not just raw materials and lower labor costs- it's abundant and reliable low-cost energy, a great rail system and waterways to get products to markets. It's the generations of tradesmen like machinists and engineers that pass their experience to the next generation- Ukraine had a mature aerospace sector, heavy manufacfuring like ship propulsion systems and gas turbines, tanks, trucks, armored vehicles, etc.

I am not looking at Ukraine today, I'm imagining a rebuilt Ukraine 20 years in the future, with modern technology, against a Germany that will probably have a 20 hour work week by then, expensive and unreliable energy, higher transportation costs, and probably a less friendly business environment overall.

Ukraine would have to continue certain reforms of their own system- be more market driven, fewer "oligarchs" running the enterprises, more investment from western companies, and so on. The opportunity is there- I can't predict it will happen, but it's not unrealistic.

jmho.


----------



## gipper

para bellum said:


> Sorry ESay, I meant to get back to you about this earlier.
> 
> I've spent more than 4 decades in manufacturing. I have a pretty good sense of it. We were chomping at the bit in the early '90's to get into eastern Europe, but the corruption was just too much to deal with. And we weren't inexperienced in that regard- we were already doing business in Mexico and South America, which requires certain payoffs to get the necessary permissions. It was the same thing, but on steroids in Eastern Europe in the early '90's.
> 
> Ukraine was one of the main centers of gravity for manufacturing for the USSR. It's not just raw materials and lower labor costs- it's abundant and reliable low-cost energy, a great rail system and waterways to get products to markets. It's the generations of tradesmen like machinists and engineers that pass their experience to the next generation- Ukraine had a mature aerospace sector, heavy manufacfuring like ship propulsion systems and gas turbines, tanks, trucks, armored vehicles, etc.
> 
> I am not looking at Ukraine today, I'm imagining a rebuilt Ukraine 20 years in the future, with modern technology, against a Germany that will probably have a 20 hour work week by then, expensive and unreliable energy, higher transportation costs, and probably a less friendly business environment overall.
> 
> Ukraine would have to continue certain reforms of their own system- be more market driven, fewer "oligarchs" running the enterprises, more investment from western companies, and so on. The opportunity is there- I can't predict it will happen, but it's not unrealistic.
> 
> jmho.


If this war continues, there won’t be much left of Ukraine and it will likely take many decades to recover.


----------



## georgephillip

gipper said:


> If this war continues, there won’t be much left of Ukraine and it will likely take many decades to recover.


It appears the corruption in Ukraine is eternal.
I wonder why the western media isn't interested?

The Bottomless Corruption of the Ukrainian State | Gates of Vienna

"Information leaked from Ukraine and confirmed by independent observers once again gives an insight into the ubiquitous corruption that prevails in the country: According to the Group of States against Corruption (GRECO), which is part of the Council of Europe, aid funds of more than €55 million were diverted. 

"That’s not all: According to the report, 22 shipping containers, 389 railway wagons and 220 trucks with humanitarian aid from the Zaporozhye region were stolen in the region in the last six months. 

"This corresponds to almost 100% of the total deliveries for this region. 

"The stolen goods were later offered for sale in Ukrainian retail chains.

"In total, from March to August 2022, the EU sent Ukraine humanitarian goods worth more than €360 million. According to GRECO, goods worth €342 million were stolen. 

"These figures correspond to a whole catalog of similar reports: It was already known in May that a large part of the relief supplies delivered to Ukraine had been embezzled and privately sold on."


----------



## gipper

georgephillip said:


> It appears the corruption in Ukraine is eternal.
> I wonder why the western media isn't interested?
> 
> The Bottomless Corruption of the Ukrainian State | Gates of Vienna
> 
> "Information leaked from Ukraine and confirmed by independent observers once again gives an insight into the ubiquitous corruption that prevails in the country: According to the Group of States against Corruption (GRECO), which is part of the Council of Europe, aid funds of more than €55 million were diverted.
> 
> "That’s not all: According to the report, 22 shipping containers, 389 railway wagons and 220 trucks with humanitarian aid from the Zaporozhye region were stolen in the region in the last six months.
> 
> "This corresponds to almost 100% of the total deliveries for this region.
> 
> "The stolen goods were later offered for sale in Ukrainian retail chains.
> 
> "In total, from March to August 2022, the EU sent Ukraine humanitarian goods worth more than €360 million. According to GRECO, goods worth €342 million were stolen.
> 
> "These figures correspond to a whole catalog of similar reports: It was already known in May that a large part of the relief supplies delivered to Ukraine had been embezzled and privately sold on."


Because negative reports on Ukraine aren’t allowed in the western press but they are on Russia, even if false and misleading.


----------



## para bellum

So where is the report? We're supposed to just take some blogger's word?

The most recent one on their website wrt Ukraine was published in April and has nothing to do with western aid, it's all about politicians and judges, etc.



			https://rm.coe.int/fourth-evaluation-round-corruption-prevention-in-respect-of-members-of/1680a64e60


----------



## georgephillip

para bellum said:


> So where is the report? We're supposed to just take some blogger's word?
> 
> The most recent one on their website wrt Ukraine was published in April and has nothing to do with western aid, it's all about politicians and judges, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> https://rm.coe.int/fourth-evaluation-round-corruption-prevention-in-respect-of-members-of/1680a64e60


That's a good question.
Personally, I tend to be suspicious of most claims coming from the second most corrupt state in Europe at this time when it's locked in conflict with the most corrupt state in Europe:

CBS partially retracts documentary that outraged Ukraine by claiming that US weapon shipments were going missing


----------



## para bellum

georgephillip said:


> That's a good question.


Their disclaimer:

"Articles in the news feed are posted “as is”. Gates of Vienna cannot vouch for the authenticity or accuracy of the contents of any individual item posted here. I check each entry to make sure it is relatively interesting, not patently offensive, and at least superficially plausible. The link to the original is included with each item’s title. Further research and verification are left to the reader."

So I did.

The original was in German from a website called Ansage.org which seems to promote the pro-Russian propaganda. It is monetized by MGID, who call themselves the "world's largest audience development network", and has a lot of covid conspiracy stuff and pieces about refugees "freeloading" in Germany.

There is no report from GRECO linked on the Ansage piece.


----------



## ESay

para bellum said:


> Sorry ESay, I meant to get back to you about this earlier.
> 
> I've spent more than 4 decades in manufacturing. I have a pretty good sense of it. We were chomping at the bit in the early '90's to get into eastern Europe, but the corruption was just too much to deal with. And we weren't inexperienced in that regard- we were already doing business in Mexico and South America, which requires certain payoffs to get the necessary permissions. It was the same thing, but on steroids in Eastern Europe in the early '90's.
> 
> Ukraine was one of the main centers of gravity for manufacturing for the USSR. It's not just raw materials and lower labor costs- it's abundant and reliable low-cost energy, a great rail system and waterways to get products to markets. It's the generations of tradesmen like machinists and engineers that pass their experience to the next generation- Ukraine had a mature aerospace sector, heavy manufacfuring like ship propulsion systems and gas turbines, tanks, trucks, armored vehicles, etc.
> 
> I am not looking at Ukraine today, I'm imagining a rebuilt Ukraine 20 years in the future, with modern technology, against a Germany that will probably have a 20 hour work week by then, expensive and unreliable energy, higher transportation costs, and probably a less friendly business environment overall.
> 
> Ukraine would have to continue certain reforms of their own system- be more market driven, fewer "oligarchs" running the enterprises, more investment from western companies, and so on. The opportunity is there- I can't predict it will happen, but it's not unrealistic.
> 
> jmho.


You were right when saying Ukraine 'was' and 'had'. Too much has been lost over the last 30 years. One of my friends was a student of Kiev aviation college back in the early 00s. And they had a 'technology practice' (I don't know how it sounds properly in English) in Antonov aviation plant.

And he was quite sceptical about its future and his perspectives of work in that field. Simply put, he described the plant as a bunch of 'pensioners' who wanted to get additional revenue or full retirement. 

You think that Germany won't be a financial and economic powerhouse in say 20 years term? Don't know. With their traditions and mentality. The workforce deficit they have they already compensate by cheap labour from the East and elsewhere. 

Basically, I think the EU is the best thing that happened to the East Europe in the last decades. Without it some countries there might have had governments in comparison with which Orban would seem as a beacon of democracy and liberal values.


----------



## Ringo

Zelensky said he was shocked by the fact that Israel had not supplied Ukraine with any weapons. 

Israel responded. that the fighters for the independence of Ukraine had already received in 1941-45 only gold teeth of Jews for tens of thousands of Reichsmarks.


----------



## toomuchtime_

Ringo said:


> Zelensky said he was shocked by the fact that Israel had not supplied Ukraine with any weapons.
> 
> Israel responded. that the fighters for the independence of Ukraine had already received in 1941-45 only gold teeth of Jews for tens of thousands of Reichsmarks.


As always you simply cannot put up a post without telling another lie.


----------



## MisterBeale

para bellum said:


> Their disclaimer:
> 
> "Articles in the news feed are posted “as is”. Gates of Vienna cannot vouch for the authenticity or accuracy of the contents of any individual item posted here. I check each entry to make sure it is relatively interesting, not patently offensive, and at least superficially plausible. The link to the original is included with each item’s title. Further research and verification are left to the reader."
> 
> So I did.
> 
> The original was in German from a website called Ansage.org which seems to promote the pro-Russian propaganda. It is monetized by MGID, who call themselves the "world's largest audience development network", and has a lot of covid conspiracy stuff and pieces about refugees "freeloading" in Germany.
> 
> There is no report from GRECO linked on the Ansage piece.


You are using two classic fallacies to argue your agenda, a poisoning the well fallacy, and an ad hom attack.  Neither of which applies to the logic of this argument, on whether the leadership, society, and command structure in Ukraine, is, in fact, corrupt.

I have looked at two of Ansage.org's links.  It is pretty difficult, since I do not read or speak German.  The first is to a site called;






It is pay-walled.  All my efforts to get around the paywall and translate the article have failed.  I have been able to only translate the Title of the article only.






para bellum said:


> There is no report from GRECO linked on the Ansage piece.


Is there a quote from GRECO in that source? I cannot say.  I have to say, I expected it in there.

The next link?

From the Telegraph.  Hey!  What luck, and English language source. .  what shall we see?












						How volunteers delivering wartime aid are sidestepping Ukraine’s corrupt healthcare system
					

Vital medical supplies destined for besieged Ukrainians are falling into the wrong hands




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




OH, GEE?!  Looks like your logical fallacies and lies are just that, BULLSHIT.  

Hmmm. . . but keep at it.  I am sure the jingoistic NPC's, and total morons appreciate your efforts!


----------



## para bellum

MisterBeale said:


> You are using two classic fallacies to argue your agenda, a poisoning the well fallacy, and an ad hom attack.  Neither of which applies to the logic of this argument, on whether the leadership, society, and command structure in Ukraine, is, in fact, corrupt.
> 
> I have looked at two of Ansage.org's links.  It is pretty difficult, since I do not read or speak German.  The first is to a site called;
> 
> View attachment 702952
> 
> It is pay-walled.  All my efforts to get around the paywall and translate the article have failed.  I have been able to only translate the Title of the article only.
> 
> View attachment 702953
> 
> Is there a quote from GRECO in that source? I cannot say.  I have to say, I expected it in there.
> 
> The next link?
> 
> From the Telegraph.  Hey!  What luck, and English language source. .  what shall we see?
> 
> View attachment 702954
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How volunteers delivering wartime aid are sidestepping Ukraine’s corrupt healthcare system
> 
> 
> Vital medical supplies destined for besieged Ukrainians are falling into the wrong hands
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OH, GEE?!  Looks like your logical fallacies and lies are just that, BULLSHIT.
> 
> Hmmm. . . but keep at it.  I am sure the jingoistic NPC's, and total morons appreciate your efforts!


So you can't find the claimed report from GRECO either. gotcha.

_That_ was the topic- not the blogger, moron.

Apparently there are "secret" reports put out by the Council of Europe that only Russian trolls have access to, whoulda thunk?


----------



## Ringo




----------



## MisterBeale

para bellum said:


> So you can't find the claimed report from GRECO either. gotcha.
> 
> _That_ was the topic- not the blogger, moron.
> 
> Apparently there are "secret" reports put out by the Council of Europe that only Russian trolls have access to, whoulda thunk?


Nope, you are right, I could not locate it.  It very well could have been pulled down.  

I do not see the need for name calling.  Your hostility reveals the truth of the matter for the forum to see though, thanks!  

But I posted enough evidence to prove that it very well could have existed at one time.  Censorship, in a time of war, is well known, and is certainly a bitch, ain't it?  

Any person that had read what I posted can logically deduce what is going on, if their noggin isn't steeped in cognitive bias.   👍


----------



## AZrailwhale

georgephillip said:


> What if Operation Barbarossa had come to the US?
> View attachment 699391
> Stalin fought nearly 200 German divisions.
> The allies fought around a dozen.
> Twenty million Soviet citizens died defending their homes against 3.8 million Axis military personnel (the largest invasion force in history) along a 1800 mile front.
> The Russians won WWII, and Truman thanked them with a Cold War.
> Ukraine is just the latest chapter in that capitali$t clu$ter-fuck.
> 
> Operation Barbarossa - Wikipedia


The WAllies fought over a hundred German divisions.  Many of the divisions the Soviets fought were from German “Allies” like Romania, Spain and Italy.  Poorly equipped, badly trained and totally unmotivated.  The Germans had twenty eight complete armored and infantry divisions as well as over a hundred kamphgruppe and independent regiments and battalions opposing just Market Garden.  Before that the Germans had 55 complete divisions fighting in Normandy. There were another 27 German divisions in Italy.  Most of the German divisions from the Eastern Front were rotated to the Western Front where they were destroyed by WAllied firepower.  There were over fifty German divisions and literally hundreds of attached units ranging from battalions to brigades fighting the WAllies in the Battle of the Bulge.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Ringo said:


> Is that what they taught you at indoctrination school? You know. who is the real ally? Not the one who sells weapons, but the one who helps allies with weapons in his hands. The Allies promised to open a Second Front in 1942, 1943 and only in 1944 they landed in Normandy. When Stalin promised Roosevelt that the USSR would begin hostilities against Japan three months after the end of the war in Europe, he fulfilled this promise verbatim. May 9, 1945 -August 9, 1945. This is an ally that anyone would like to have.


The WAllies opened a second front in Africa in 1941.  They opened a third front in Italy in 1943 and a fourth in Normandy in 1944 and a fifth in Southern France in 1944.  So that excuse doesn’t fly.  As for going to war with Japan, Stalin did that for profit.  He continued to fight for weeks AFTER the peace treaty was signed ending the war to grab as much territory as he could.


----------



## Ringo

Speaking about the events in Ukraine, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Josep Borrel made a curious remark:
*"I am not satisfied with the arguments used by many people, including my friends, to justify aggression by saying that NATO has not fulfilled its promises [to Russia]. It's possible. This is the history now. None of this justifies what is happening."*

The logic is undoubtedly remarkable: recognizing NATO as the culprit for the breakdown of the security system in Europe, which caused a major conflict on the territory of the Old World, Borrel categorically refuses to recognize the responsibility of the West for the current situation. Of course, Russia is to blame for everything. This is the purest example of Hottentot morality (however, isn't it time to rename it "Western"?), where everything you have done is good, and the same thing, but the enemy is evil.

Russia has already got used to such behavior of Euro-Atlantic "partners", but Ukrainians, who are now basking in the support of the West, should strain themselves. After all, with the same ease with which NATO broke its promises not to expand the Alliance to the east, the vows of unconditional support for Ukraine can also be broken.


----------

