# School Choice



## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Let's empower students and parents instead of tired, bloated bureaucracies.  Why should only the rich have school choice?  Competition is better than monopoly: school choice means bad schools go out of business and good schools thrive.

Check out the article:  Education at a Crossroads | RealClearPolitics


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 6, 2017)

School choice is a euphemism for segregation.


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## Cellblock2429 (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> School choice is a euphemism for segregation.


 /---- How stupid.


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## NoNukes (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> School choice is a euphemism for segregation.


I used to think this about home schooling. It is no longer true. We homeschooled our daughter for 2 years, and now she is back in mainstream education.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 6, 2017)

Cellblock2429 said:


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That's not a rebuttal, it's an ad hominem, aka, a logical fallacy.  School choice exists now, did when I went to school in the 1950's and this has never changed.  

Those who want to send their kids to private schools have ever right to do so.  The argument is they want the taxpayer to pay for the costs, when the taxpayer is already paying the school district which provides free public education to every child in its district.  Taking money from the public school system is the goal of those who argue for "school choice".

I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit - it is the white parent so fearful of cultures, races an ethnic differences they want to protect their child from our diverse and multi society).

Public education has adapted, by allowing the creation of Charter Schools and providing AP Classes, remedial classes, etc. and allowing disabled children to attend the public school.  The call for "school choice" is a call for segregation, those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.


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## Cellblock2429 (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 6, 2017)

Cellblock2429 said:


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Nope,  what you consider "tiresome" is denial.  

My question is this:  Is your denial a defense mechanism or a damn lie?


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## Penelope (Feb 6, 2017)

In late 2011, Michigan lawmakers removed limits on how many charters can operate here —opening the door to a slew of new management companies. In 2013-14, the state had 296 charters operating some 370 schools — in 61% of them, charter boards have enlisted a full-service, for-profit management company. Another 17% rely on for-profits for other services, mostly staffing and human resources, according to Free Press research.

Michigan far exceeds states like Florida, Ohio and Missouri, where only about one-third of charters were run by a full-service, for-profit management company in 2011-12, according to research by Western Michigan University professor Gary Miron, who has studied charters extensively.

Michigan spends $1B on charter schools but fails to hold them accountable

For profit schools. Devos is going to ruin public schools, that is her agenda.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> Those who want to send their kids to private schools have ever right to do so.  The argument is they want the taxpayer to pay for the costs, when the taxpayer is already paying the school district which provides free public education to every child in its district.  Taking money from the public school system is the goal of those who argue for "school choice".


Stop talking nonsense.

Link: New Research Shows Additional Benefits of School Choice | The Heritage Foundation

Quote: Dr. Aud, a professor at Johns Hopkins University, studied eleven school voucher programs in eight states. She found that the programs saved state and local taxpayers $444 million from 1990 to 2006-$22 million for state budgets and $422 million for local school districts. Those savings mean that more can be spent on those students who do remain in public schools.



> I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit -


Why do you want to deprive minority students of opportunity?

Urban minorities benefit most from Catholic schools

You must be a hate-filled bigot.



> it is the white parent so fearful of cultures, races an ethnic differences they want to protect their child from our diverse and multi society).
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> Public education has adapted, by allowing the creation of Charter Schools and providing AP Classes, remedial classes, etc. and allowing disabled children to attend the public school.  The call for "school choice" is a call for segregation, those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.


Stupid in so many ways.

The *existing* public school monopoly system is segregated. Try to get your facts straight.

America's public schools remain highly segregated

You are defending a segregated system.  You are defending the corrupt, failed status quo.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Maybe the U.S. can learn from other countries.

School Choice: Learning from Other Countries


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Thinking Democrats favor school choice: Vouchers Gain Foothold Among State, Local Democrats


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## Unkotare (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


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Talk about illogical....


You think you know the motivation of every parent who wants any degree of choice in their children's education? Don't mention logic if you don't understand it yourself.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Wasting taxpayer dollars: Study: School administrative bloat increased 700 percent since 1950


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 6, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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A.  The Heritage Foundation is partisan
B.  Catholic schools are non profits.
C.  Not all, it depends on each school board to establish boundaries and.or allow parents to choose where their child goes to schoo.


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## bodecea (Feb 6, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> Let's empower students and parents instead of tired, bloated bureaucracies.  Why should only the rich have school choice?  Competition is better than monopoly: school choice means bad schools go out of business and good schools thrive.
> 
> Check out the article:  Education at a Crossroads | RealClearPolitics


Nothing wrong with school choice.  Public schools should have the same power private schools have to choose what students they take and keep.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

We are badly in need of reform: USATODAY.com - U.S. tops the world in school spending but not test scores


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> A.  The Heritage Foundation is partisan


You dismiss those with a different viewpoint.  You must have a closed mind.


> B.  Catholic schools are non profits.


 Your point?


> C.  Not all, it depends on each school board to establish boundaries and.or allow parents to choose where their child goes to schoo.


Is the existing public school system largely segregated or not? Yes or no?


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> School choice is a euphemism for segregation.



The only choice people like you want the masses to have when it comes to their children is whether or not to suck them out of their womb before they're born.


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## Care4all (Feb 6, 2017)

Are private schools and charter schools subjected to the same testing, of "No child Left Behind" legislation as the Public Schools are...?

If they are NOT, and people think these private schools are BETTER schools than Public Schools, then why not ELIMINATE the rules for no child left behind in the Public Schools?  Or why not force the Private schools getting our tax dollars to meet the same testing standards required for Public Schools?

It should be apples to apples so the parents can be informed on a level basis, what school to choose for their child.


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## bodecea (Feb 6, 2017)

Care4all said:


> Are private schools and charter schools subjected to the same testing, of "No child Left Behind" legislation as the Public Schools are...?
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> If they are NOT, and people think these private schools are BETTER schools than Public Schools, then why not ELIMINATE the rules for no child left behind in the Public Schools?  Or why not force the Private schools getting our tax dollars to meet the same testing standards required for Public Schools?
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Or.....set up our schools like those in countries we seem to admire their school test results so much.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 6, 2017)

Unkotare said:


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Wrong, I was speaking of the efforts to politicize the issue, note the topic sentence:  "Those who want to send their kids to private schools have every right to do so" as do those who home school or have no interest in their child's education.  Those who want choice are not all and even most racist or bigoted, but some are.  

We have seen efforts to bus kids, as a means to integrate schools, lamented - at best - and much of the segregation is the result of the the private sector / market system which segregates neighborhoods by wealth.  There are no simple answers to these issues, but don't pretend bigotry, racism, sexism, misogyny do not exist and are not wedge issue in the political domain.

There are regulations to provide affordable housing in new construction in the SF Bay Region, but affordable here is not affordable to anyone not earning $100,000 + a year.   School choice IS a means to subsidize everyone with vouchers, but not even with vouchers will many poor families, single mom families and minority families be able to afford a for profit private school.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Feb 6, 2017)

School choice is fairly routine in many other nations, nations who do a better job of educating their children than we do.

How does school choice work in other countries?


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## rightwinger (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> School choice is a euphemism for segregation.



The idea that every child will have a choice is a lie

Parents will naturally flock to the better school in the district which will quickly fill up. School choice will end up being a choice of wealthier white parents to pull their child out of a minority school

Most communities, especially rural ones, only have one school
How does school choice help them?


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> School choice IS a means to subsidize everyone with vouchers, but not even with vouchers will many poor families, single mom families and minority families be able to afford a for profit private school.


Obviously many private schools will be eager to serve these students and earn a profit.



> We have seen efforts to bus kids, as a means to integrate schools, lamented - at best - and much of the segregation is the result of the the private sector / market system which segregates neighborhoods by wealth.


Do you want to force people to live where you think they should?!  Stop the social engineering and leave people alone.  Perhaps ordinary people are not so bad, at least no worse than our lofty elite liberal meddling overlords.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

rightwinger said:


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Lol.  Do you think maybe successful schools might expand?  Set up branches?

Do you think maybe rural folk might figure out how to build another school if an educational need is not being satisfied?


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## rightwinger (Feb 6, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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No they won't....most communities struggle to support the school they have


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## Thunderbird (Feb 6, 2017)

rightwinger said:


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Why not use educational funds wisely? Let's stop wasting money on useless bureaucracies. Focus money on the schools that work.

Why don't you want to empower students and parents?


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## Spare_change (Feb 6, 2017)




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## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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I agree

Why use our limited education funds on people who choose to send their kids to private school?


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## Unkotare (Feb 7, 2017)

rightwinger said:


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The police come to gated communities if there's a crime, right?


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## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2017)

Unkotare said:


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Very true

Should gated communities be able to take the part of their tax dollars that support police and pay for their own private force?


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## Unkotare (Feb 7, 2017)

rightwinger said:


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They pay for both.


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## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2017)

Unkotare said:


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Should they be able to withhold taxes to pay for their own security force?


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## Thunderbird (Feb 7, 2017)

rightwinger said:


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Because we value freedom so much?


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## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose


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## ErikViking (Feb 8, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> Maybe the U.S. can learn from other countries.
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> School Choice: Learning from Other Countries



The article effectively evades the drawbacks, for balance:

The segregation is evident, and it does have a negative impact. Sweden has dropped in the charts (mostly due to other factors, but school choice didn't help).

A special control agency have had to be set up for inspection. Schools with religious "motives" for instance needs attention so that they deliver at standard. Since profit is the driving force there is now concern about the quality - not enough teachers, equipment or facilities to get the job done.

A couple of years ago schools could simply go bankrupt which of course had a negative impact for the students.

The profit focus does tend to prioritise quantity over quality.

To conclude, there are going to be a lot of bumps in the road, not sure if it's really worth it. Voices from both left and right can be heard arguing that the school should be put under government control.

So, not all good - not all bad. As with most things.


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## Wyatt earp (Feb 8, 2017)

rightwinger said:


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That's a stupid analogy, people who have no kids can't with hold tax dollars for schools, we pay no matter what.


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## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2017)

bear513 said:


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Good point

Why should someone who sends their kid to catholic school receive a voucher while someone without kids gets nothing


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## Wyatt earp (Feb 8, 2017)

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But then you bring up everything else,  unmarried people have to pay more tax,  people that own a home get tax breaks,  then people who don't..


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## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2017)

bear513 said:


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Exactly

So why should someone who chooses to send a kid to a private school be paid to do so?


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## Wyatt earp (Feb 8, 2017)

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But there just getting their tax dollars back.. 

Us no kids people still have to pay for the public schools,  are tax dollars are not going to the charter schools. 

Heck I don't get why you don't want them to get the best education if their parents care that much?


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## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2017)

bear513 said:


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You don't get your tax dollars back.....You pay for public services

Some services you use, some you don't


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## Wyatt earp (Feb 8, 2017)

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They are getting a voucher (I assume)  for what they would of paid in taxes 

Again like 40% of city kids 20% of country kids drop out of school anyways so what's the problem.. Of letting the ones with parents who care a chance?


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## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2017)

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The problem with this Republican "fix" of our educational system is that it only applies to city kids. Most rural areas do not have charter schools, they do not have access to private schools
All they have is their public school system which is struggling for funds
Most rural schools are subsidized by the urban areas in their states. When you pull money away from city schools and give it to private schools you are also taking money away from rural districts


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## mgh80 (Feb 8, 2017)

School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?

Last week was parent conference night. Every parent was notified via phone message, billboards at the school and announcers, and a take home letter for students. I teach 150 students...how many kids had parents show up? 2. Literally. That's barely over 1%.

I'm not anti-parent, and I'd love for them to be involved with my class....but when you get 1% of parents showing up how could I?


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## Unkotare (Feb 8, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> School choice is a nice idea but won't solve anything. People want to know what's wrong with the education system?
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You don't reach out to them?


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## mgh80 (Feb 8, 2017)

Unkotare said:


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I can't reach out to 180 people on an individual basis are the start of the year, it's impossible. I do make the students get their syllabi signed where I reach out to them in the paper. I contact student parents for behavioral issues and/or grade issues when necessary and even call home for the good kids. 

The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening.  Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.

2/150 is pathetic no matter how you slice the numbers or resolve cognitive dissonance.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 8, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> I am not arguing the public school system is the best it can be, but this argument for "school choice" is based on false pathos (oh, the poor black child is stuck in a low performing school, is bullshit


I'm sure you know all about what's best for minority children - far more than minority parents.

Quote: In fact, school choice is disproportionately popular among minority groups. AFC surveyed 1,100 likely voters in January 2016: 70 percent supported school choice, defined as “giv[ing] parents the right to use the tax dollars associated with their child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which better serves their needs." Among African Americans and Latinos, the number was 76 percent. A poll commissioned last year by the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools showed similar levels of support.

Read more at: Cory Booker Turns on His One-Time Ally, Betsy DeVos



> those who want to shield their child from reality have every right to do so, and risk creating bigots and young adults not ready to adapt to a sheltered environment.


So students who go to school in mostly white areas like Maine or Finland are more likely to be bigots?!


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## Thunderbird (Feb 8, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> The level of apathy among parents at my school is disheartening.  Most voice calls go unanswered, emails unread and/or not responded to and conference night is almost empty at the school.


You'll always have some apathetic parents, but if you give parents choice I think you'll get more involved parents. If people feel powerless, they are often unmotivated.


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## Spare_change (Feb 8, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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As a football coach, I've had the opportunity to work in charter, private, high income, and low income schools. So, I've been exposed to parents from all  levels. Here's what I think ....

1) Private schools come with the greatest level of expectation. Parent believe that, since they are paying tuition, their son is entitled to certain benefits - in my case, playing time. It doesn't matter how good Johnny is, or how often Johnny skips practice, or how often Johnny lifts weights, he is entitled to playing time simply because his parent pay for him to be there. Johnny, thus, doesn't believe he has to work for anything - that it all should be given to him. Keeping students eligible academically is a given - after all, Dad has bought that diploma.

2) High income public schools (in the nice parts of town) have the LEAST amount of parent involvement. Their parents are too busy with their own lives to worry about their kids. The kids, in turn, have no drive and no goals. Johnny doesn't care if he's the best, or not - because, he knows that any effort is more effort than most put forth. He also knows that, if he doesn't excel, it's okay, because mommy and daddy will take care of him. After all, they have been doing it all his life. This group doesn't believe in hard work or commitment to a cause. Keeping students eligible academically is an effort, but not hard. We lost 3-5% of students to grades.

3) Low income public schools suffer from a different malady. Parents generally understand that education is the only chance Johnny has, but they are ill-equipped to help him or guide him. By the time, Johnny is in the 7th grade, he has long passed the academic training of his parents. Therefore, they rely on the smartest people in the neighborhood - teachers - to raise their kids. Parents want to help - they just don't know how. So, Johnny falls into two general classes. He either has accepted his lot in life, given up, and just wants to get thru the day. Or, he has an absolutely burning desire to get out of the 'hood, and will do anything to make it happen. Parents will do everything they can - unfortunately, they can do very little. It is out of these schools that we get the most ardent, and active, parent support. Some will tell you that it's because Dad sees Johnny's football or basketball skills as Dad's ticket, but I don't think that's it - I think most parents see it as the only opportunity Johnny has to escape cycle of welfare. Far and away, parent involvement and child commitment is greatest in the low income school. We have won two state championships - both at very low income schools. We were blessed with kids who had drive and commitment - something missing at most other schools. These students are committed to football - but woefully unprepared academically. Keeping them eligible is almost impossible.  We lose about 30-35% every year to grades.It would seem it is because that most of the students WANT to stay eligible, they're just ill-equipped to meet the academic rigors.

4) Charter schools are a hybrid - parents have some money, but they generally have a desire for their children to succeed, to be better than they were. As a football coach, we find these students to be less driven to athletic pursuits, which of course, makes our job harder. But, generally, their pursuit of academics is greater than the other groups. We had a lot fewer academic issues with our players, but also a corresponding lack of commitment to football.

Sometimes, I think the right answer is a mix of all four -- each has its advantage, and each has its faults.


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## Spare_change (Feb 8, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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I always thought the "holier-than-thou" attitude of educators drove off even the most committed parent.


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## mgh80 (Feb 8, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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I give parents as much choice as I possibly can-which is NOT much...mind you I have a curriculum that I have to follow myself-I can't simply teach what I'd like to, let alone with any parent would like me to. Most parents will ask me if they can have input on what novel(s) we read in class...it's sad but I inform them that they can't-because I don't have a choice as to the novel(s) we study. I do encourage them to have their kids read, and will offer suggested readings based on their kid's interests, but my hands really are tied.


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## Unkotare (Feb 8, 2017)

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???


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## mgh80 (Feb 8, 2017)

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How was my post "holier than thou"? I clearly stated that I encourage parental involvement and do my best to reach out.

There are many reasons why they can't/don't some are valid, others aren't.


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## Spare_change (Feb 8, 2017)

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The single thing that used to infuriate me when I was dealing with my children's teachers was the "know it all", "don't you worry about it", "you couldn't possibly understand", "I'd explain it to you but you're not smart enough to understand", "after all, I AM the trained educator here" attitude most teachers take with parents.

They were more interested in establishing their superiority than they were in coming to an agreement on how to move forward. 

Since then, I've served on three school boards, and the attitude is even worse with school administrators, principals, and superintendents.

I greatly dislike being talked down to.


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## Unkotare (Feb 9, 2017)

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Are you sure that wasn't just your impression? I've known very few teachers with such an attitude outside university education.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 9, 2017)

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There is that RISK.  Consider education and its impact on terrorists; the evidence that radical Imam's create hate and fear of the West in a homogeneous environment seem obvious.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 9, 2017)

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No one loves a homogenous intellectual climate and intellectual uniformity as much as leftist elites! Haven't you heard of political correctness or the intolerant liberal thought police? You must be floating around in a bubble somewhere.

Leftist elites would love to create an educational monopoly wherein only left-wing dogma would be taught.


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## dblack (Feb 9, 2017)

rightwinger said:


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I guess it depends on whether your goal is to fund education, or to control it.


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## Spare_change (Feb 9, 2017)

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Throughout my involvement with the education system, I found this to be the PREVALENT attitude, not an exception or two. Yes, it was even worse at the university level, but that was more directed to the students. 

I truly believe that one of the reasons you don't see more parent involvement is because the teaching staff is all that interested in INVOLVING them because they feel the parents can't understand the intricacies of teaching.


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## Unkotare (Feb 9, 2017)

Spare_change said:


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Your 'experience' is subjective.


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## Spare_change (Feb 9, 2017)

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Duh!

Course, that makes it no less real.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 12, 2017)

Democrat party elites are failing the people: http://nypost.com/2017/02/08/the-democratic-party-has-lost-its-mind-and-its-soul/


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 17, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


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Everybody likes free stuff!

DUH!


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

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The "How Stupid" comment perfectly and succinctly describes and responds to your position.

Seek help!


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

Care4all said:


> Are private schools and charter schools subjected to the same testing, of "No child Left Behind" legislation as the Public Schools are...?
> 
> If they are NOT, and people think these private schools are BETTER schools than Public Schools, then why not ELIMINATE the rules for no child left behind in the Public Schools?  Or why not force the Private schools getting our tax dollars to meet the same testing standards required for Public Schools?
> 
> It should be apples to apples so the parents can be informed on a level basis, what school to choose for their child.



We have a number of excellent private schools in our area.  We also have some very good, and some whose reputation is less than stellar.  I paid for my step-daughter to go to one of the best private schools for her last eight years of education.  The school she attended has a record of 100% of their graduates being accepted into college.  My step-daughter qualified for the top Bright Futures Scholarship program and went on to graduate from FSU.

Going into her 10th grade, she had begun complaining that she wanted to go to the public school.  I took her to the one she would be attending for about half a day.  It is one of the top two or three high schools in our county.  She was quiet on the way home and then had a talk with her mom, my wife and we never heard her say anything about it again.


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

bodecea said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Are private schools and charter schools subjected to the same testing, of "No child Left Behind" legislation as the Public Schools are...?
> ...



In the vast amount of cases, setting up schools like those in other countries scoring ahead of us would not be possible nor would it be accepted by voters.  The fact remains too that those other countries are not multicultural in nature.  They have different family values.  Anyone who does not understand that or does not believe that is a major difference, are deluding themselves.


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> School choice is fairly routine in many other nations, nations who do a better job of educating their children than we do.
> 
> How does school choice work in other countries?[/QUOTE]
> 
> What no one seems to take into account is that we are a multicultural nation.


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Because government schools are failing.  If the government school is not educating ten students, that is ten students they will not have as an expense.

Specifically, why do you want to discriminate against low and moderate income people by not allowing them the same choice as more wealthy parents?  How do you hope to break the cycle of poverty if all you offer to low and moderate income parents is a low and moderate education?

As for myself and my wife, we pay substantial property taxes, which are one of the primary sources of revenue for our local schools.  We then paid a substantial amount for tuition, plus books and trips at a private school.


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

Unkotare said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Thunderbird said:
> ...



Your point being?


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose



Saw her live several times, once before she played Woodstock.  My very favorite blues singer.


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I believe you're off track.  We are talking about giving a voucher to students in failing schools to allow them the same choice of schools enjoyed by more affluent parents.  How is that a bad thing?  How does competition harm education?


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > mgh80 said:
> ...



Nonsense.   Of course, it is possible to reach out to a mere 180 people.  Apparently, you have a computer, is email not available?  It is impossible for me to believe that there are not contact management programs available to teachers just as they are for me a 40 year Realtor.

When I was active I had a contact list of over 1,200 people with whom I had a friendship, professional contact, listed or sold a property to or for.  Monthly they were contacted by me with a letter or card.  Every three months, or monthly for many, I contacted them personally by phone.  Each got a hand written Christmas card.  

Yes, I made my living by keeping in touch with these friends, my livelihood depended on referrals.  However, you're only talking about 180 people.  Quarterly I would visit, going door to door, each house in a neighborhood of 225.


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## mgh80 (Feb 20, 2017)

Markle said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



1) Not all of my students have internet access at home...you should have seen my old school when I was shocked that almost none of my students knew how to even turn a computer on-let alone know how to send/receive emails.

2) I clearly said on an INDIVIDUAL basis-not sure if you missed that part or not. Sending a mass email to all parents is obviously not reaching out to them on an individual level. Do you really think it's possible to take ten minutes to write 180 emails within the first few days of school? That comes down to 1800 minutes (30 hours).

PS: 

-I have stopped sending emails home to parents because they never get answered (unless the parent has emailed me first-and they all have my email)
-My district has an online grading program where parents can message me-and some do and I obviously respond to them on there. Also, all of my assignments are posted on the program so parents have access to it.

3) Contacting parents makes up a small part of my job I have:

 Online classes to take for my certification, 6 hours of classes to teach a day, two lessons to plan (per day), essays/papers to grade, tests to grade, IEP/504 notes to submit, pre and post observations to plan for, PLC meetings/observations, prepare my students for their state writing test that they must pass in order to graduate, write recommendation letters, tutor students individually, etc.

Don't get me wrong: I am not complaining about my job whatsoever. I'm merely pointing out that it's not feasible for me to call or contact each parent on an individual level...hence why I said I send home a syllabus to be signed, make calls on on individual basis when necessary (this includes bad AND good calls). Believe it or not I've had plenty of parents get upset at me for contacting them (since they're so used to be contacted by the school for their child's behavior). But of course it's not their fault or their kid's fault why their kid got caught selling molly in the bathroom--they were framed by the REAL drug dealers in the school! (give me a break LOL).

Conference night is the perfect time for parents to show up...and there's crickets. The parents that do show up I absolutely offer input for them and make sure I ask them if they have any suggestions for my class-but usually it's the parents of the "A" or "B" kids that show up, and they're typically very pleased with my class. On the odd occasion they offer a suggestion-I take it seriously as I stated above.


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## Markle (Feb 20, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > mgh80 said:
> ...



I understand it's a bother to make it a point to contact parents on a regular basis.  Saying they don't all have the internet is a cop out.  You're saying you won't contact 180 parents because five don't have the internet.

A bad response from someone and I'd contact them once more and make a note to not call them again.  You've gone the extra mile.


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## mgh80 (Feb 21, 2017)

Markle said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



When I say they don't have the Internet it's true.

Now as I stated every student gets a syllabus from me with my phone number and school email address-so every parent should have my contact information. I make the students rip the portion to it with a parent's signature (those that don't return it or forged a signature get a call home).  That's the first way I reach out.

I update all of my contact information and assignments/announcements on my class page for their parents to access.

I call parents whose child is struggling-many times their parents don't answer, aren't interested, or are afraid to talk to school personnel due to their legal status as in the us.

I invite parents to attend conference night.

Other than calling every parent on the phone (which I will do if their kid is either messing up or improving), or knocking on their doors there's not much more I can do.

If a parent contacts me (which I've clearly informed them on how to do so), I'll talk to them and be open minded (like I said a lesson I taught a few weeks ago directly came from a conversation I had with a parent in the past). It was a great lesson and honestly one I probably wouldn't  have thought of on my own-so why wdid uosnt I teach it?

My problem is with the drug dealers, the kids who look up to Pablo Escobar or Jay-Z and the apathy that runs rampant in my classroom. I produce results which is why they give me "those kids" the ones that nobody else wants and I get some kind of them on the right track. The bottom line however is if parents don't care about their child's education and the child doesn't care...there's only so much I can do. I can give them the keys and the car to get to where they need to go, but if they sit around all day doing nothing and don't want to get into the car-i can't force them to.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

Markle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Thunderbird said:
> ...



False pathos ^^^?  

Of course I can't see into the hearts and minds of those who advocate for vouchers, charter schools and such. What I can do is make an inference based on the goal of conservative Republicans who hope to starve the beast, and make for-profit everything from schools to prisons to police forces to health insurance, to parks and beaches.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

Markle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



The same choice as more affluent parents?  Have you considered the unintended consequences of such an integration? 

Consider Johnny whose dad is a geek an has every electronic bell and whistle, and a stay at home mom who make little Johnny a hot nutritious breakfast every morning, a morning when dad and mom sit with him and talk over the breakfast table with him about the news of the day, or spend a half hour going over his school work, or present him with a new word of the day?

Compare to John Jr. whose dad works swing or grave yard, and mom works retail.  Morning is rushed as mom gets ready to go to work and parks Jr. in front of the TV with a bowl of cold, sugar infested cereal.

What follows for the rest of the school day?  Johnny is ready and prepared to work, and Jr's sugar high has crashed and he falls further behind each day.  In a public school Jr. might receive a good breakfast, balanced with protein, not simple carbs and sugar, giving him at least a chance to compete with the children of parents more affluent.

When Johnny gets mom is waiting to talk about his school day, provide him a snack and settle him in to work on his homework before being taken to soccer or baseball or basketball or piano practice;  Jr's mom is at work, dad is asleep so he grabs something like chips and a cola and head off the the park or streets to play.

Fiction?  I know not, I spent a career seeing kids like Jr. in trouble, in gangs or segregated into county or continuation schools, and a vocation coaching the Johnny's (my own sons) in baseball and basketball and with my stay at home wife, established routines on when to study, when to play and when to work by taking care of assorted pets or clean their rooms, on what to eat to be healthy.

The meme on the conservative side is don't throw money at schools, don't pay teachers well and let's spend that money on private schools so affluent parents don't need to worry that Jr. will slow their learning, or worse, infect them with bad habits.


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## Unkotare (Feb 21, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> ....
> 
> When Johnny gets mom is waiting to talk about his school day, provide him a snake and settle him in to work on his homework before being taken to soccer or baseball or basketball or piano practice.....




Why do they give Johnny a snake? Sounds dangerous.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

Unkotare said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



LOL, I type fast, not necessarily with much accuracy.  Thus I've learned to review and edit some silly mistakes.  Of course I meant that the snack of the day was on occasion a snake, better that he learn how to deal with snakes and their oil sold by salesmen, bankers and Pols at an early age.


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## DGS49 (Feb 21, 2017)

Every "argument" on this topic from the Left is tainted by slavish support for teachers' unions.  There is nothing illogical, unfair, or unreasonable about allowing TAXPAYING parents to remove their kidlets from unsatisfactory schools and get either a tax credit or a voucher from the government schools for the imputed cost saved.

There are valid economic arguments supporting the proposition that the full per-student cost is not saved in each individual case, so the credit or voucher can be a reduced amount, but if I choose not to avail myself than I shouldn't have to pay the full cost.

It is up to the STATES to police charter schools, and this concept is written into every charter school law.  the charters are temporary, and certain performance levels must be maintained in order to have the charter renewed.  States not doing their jobs here is not a legitimate argument against charter schools.

And OBVIOUSLY, fiscal constraints must be imposed and enforced, and audited.  Again, finding a few fiscal horror stories is not relevant to the discussion.  I have seen incompetent public school superintendents set off with half-million dollar payouts more than once.  And even worse, I see them getting YEARS of pay for "vacation and sick leave not taken," at which point I usually have to restrain myself from committing a terrorist act.

There ARE public schools which are not satisfactory, and when that school has PROVEN over a period of years that it cannot bring itself up to a reasonable standard, the parents and students must not be condemned to stay there, just so that the teacher's union will not be "upset."

Is Wry Catcher on drugs?  Can he read?  WTF?


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## Unkotare (Feb 21, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...





Snake is delicious.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> Every "argument" on this topic from the Left is tainted by slavish support for teachers' unions.  There is nothing illogical, unfair, or unreasonable about allowing TAXPAYING parents to remove their kidlets from unsatisfactory schools and get either a tax credit or a voucher from the government schools for the imputed cost saved.
> 
> There are valid economic arguments supporting the proposition that the full per-student cost is not saved in each individual case, so the credit or voucher can be a reduced amount, but if I choose not to avail myself than I shouldn't have to pay the full cost.
> 
> ...



"_Every "argument" on this topic from the Left is tainted by slavish support for teachers' unions._"  Hyperbole in the first sentence makes one wonder if reading beyond is worthwhile.

Logic has very little to do with this topic, it is as emotional as is the issue of gun control and abortion.

Vouchers are not the panacea for poor performing schools, no more than blood letting aided a sick person; transfusions though, can be life saving.  

Taking money from schools to allow a for-profit institution or corporation to operate a private school isn't insane, it is immoral.  For not every parent can afford to use a voucher, have the time to transport their child or children back and forth to a school which they pay for, and may be a greater, or much greater distance from their home.

I have no great love of unions, but they are necessary until human nature can be controlled.  Tenure can be a problem, for it can be used as cost control or discipline, and not a method of evaluating a teachers ability to teach and to be a good role model for their charge.

If you want a good school, get your ass into a seat at the next school board meeting, or better yet, support someone who you believe will do a better job.  Let the public know which school or district allows mediocrity and for how long and lobby for improvements.  

Let's not destroy a public education system, let's fix it to reflect reality:

*Every child needs* to learn how to read with comprehension, communicate verbally and in writing, compute, and be up to date with technology;
Not every child will want or need to attend college;
By the 12th grade every child with the ability should have the skills  in bullet 1.
Every school district or county/parish ought to have a 13th and 14th grade level provided in a Jr. College, which would allow those late bloomers to make up what they didn't/couldn't complete by HS Graduation, and for those who wanted to learn the skills to go into the workforce and compete.
For those parents who want a private school, there are banks ready to give them money, at a cost.  But at their cost, not the cost of those parents and others who are paying taxes to support the public school system.


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## psikeyhackr (Feb 21, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> Let's empower students and parents instead of tired, bloated bureaucracies.  Why should only the rich have school choice?



The rich need for people to believe in schools in order to control education.

I have an app on my smartphone that can read e-book files.

Alreader.com - new perspective on reading e-books.

If I was still in grade school how much would I need a teacher with that app and Project Gutenberg?  If anything the problem would still be selecting books that are worth the time.

So why don't we have a National Recommended Reading List?  Because it would then be too easy for smart poor kids to do a better job of educating themselves than dumb rich kids sent to the best schools?

psik


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

psikeyhackr said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> > Let's empower students and parents instead of tired, bloated bureaucracies.  Why should only the rich have school choice?
> ...



This ^^^  is absurd in my opinion.  It is wishful thinking which lacks understanding of the social issues of attending school and working with peers, learning to listen actively and debate ideas, and put one's own ideas and conclusions orally and on paper.  

Not every child has the advantages, ambtion and intellect of Rene Descartes.


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## yiostheoy (Feb 21, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> School choice is a euphemism for segregation.


Negroes worry about this a lot.

It has become a paranoia for them.

So what's wrong with Negroes teaching Negro children in schools that are predominantly Negro ??

That's how Negro kids prefer it anyway.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

Unkotare said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Low in fat, high in protein.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

yiostheoy said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > School choice is a euphemism for segregation.
> ...



LOL, you know this how?


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## Markle (Feb 21, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > mgh80 said:
> ...



I understand you do the minimum amount possible because you get a paycheck regardless.

You could call no more than 3 or 4 parents a day and have all 180 contacted, or left a message for in three months and then start over.  Maybe you could make a change in your school.  Please don't tell me that you could not at least double the parents showing up if they really believed YOU had as much or more of an interest in their kids.  Shame them into participating.


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## Wry Catcher (Feb 21, 2017)

Cellblock2429 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > School choice is a euphemism for segregation.
> ...



Funny how such a stupid comment cannot be proved stupid, or that  those who believe it is a stupid statement have no statement of substance to post, or facts to support their comment.


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## Thunderbird (Feb 22, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> The meme on the conservative side is don't throw money at schools, don't pay teachers well and let's spend that money on private schools so affluent parents don't need to worry that Jr. will slow their learning, or worse, infect them with bad habits.


School choice means funding schools that work. Why do you what to fund bloated bureaucracies and failed schools?


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## Cellblock2429 (Feb 22, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



/---- some statements are straw man arguments designed to make opponents defend their position against a false argument. Therefore the statement that school choice is discrimination is stupid.


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## mgh80 (Feb 22, 2017)

Markle said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



I do the minimum? Tell that to the kids I tutor (for free) after school. Tell that to the kid who came to my room last week  in tears because I guided him on his way to earning a scholarship (which I wasn't paid for).

Contacting 3 parents a day would take 60 days....which would be 12 weeks...almost 1 1/2 semesters. That's assuming that every parent i call answers.

Again they have my contact information and they're adults-if they want to contact me they can. It's not my fault if they don't take any initiative. It's called personal responsibility and if parents want a say in what goes on i the classroom-they need to show up to conference night, or email their kid's teachers, or call the teachers, or send a note with their kid, or call the school. I guarantee the parents go to the football games (I do too mind you).

Believe me I don't do my job for a check (I run my online business for a check)--I actually make less money by teaching than I would if I didn't. I'm well aware there are teachers who do the minimum just for a check and it's embarrassing befaue it makes us who are dedicated look worse.


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## Markle (Feb 22, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > mgh80 said:
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You say you don't do it for a check but refuse to reach out to anyone who doesn't come to you first.

The usual has failed.  Yet you have a lot of excuses for not changing.  You wish for me to believe that reaching out to parents, bringing them into a circle of communications with emails and phone calls would make more of a difference than one student is not believable.  If the parents don't answer, you leave a message.

That's fine, I understand.


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## mgh80 (Feb 22, 2017)

Markle said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



How is me posting my contact information on the site/program for the class not reaching out? How is me sending them home with a syllabus with contact information not reaching out?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 22, 2017)

Markle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



The schools are not failing.  The students that attend them are failing.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 22, 2017)

Markle said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



Bullshit!  You can call, send home letters, progress reports, report cards and you get NOTHING!


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 22, 2017)

Markle said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



Reaching out is done, but does no good!  Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 22, 2017)

Markle said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



They simply ignore the message.


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## Markle (Feb 22, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Reaching out is done, but does no good!  Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.



That perfectly describes our current education system run by teachers unions.  Keep doing the same thing and keep paying those DOLLARS!

National Education Association General Counsel Bob Chanin stated in July 2009.

Chanin: *"It is not because we care about children. And it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child.* NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power. And we have power because there are more than 3.2 million people who are willing to pay us hundreds of millions of dollars in dues...."


Says it all, does it not?


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## mgh80 (Feb 22, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > mgh80 said:
> ...





Markle said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Reaching out is done, but does no good!  Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
> ...



Crickets.....


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Feb 22, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Markle said:
> ...



I wish some of these teacher wanabees will saddle up and show us how easily it can be done and how we are too busy screwing things up all of the time to be able to do our jobs better!


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## mgh80 (Feb 22, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > mgh80 said:
> ...



Agreed they couldn't even tell you the difference between standards and a curriculum...yet they seem to have all of the answers lol.


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## Spare_change (Feb 22, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Then, I would suggest those schools are in the wrong business. It is their mission to educate those students, not blame them for their inability to motivate them.

Frankly, and I mean no offense, you sound like shill for the teachers' unions.


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## DGS49 (Feb 24, 2017)

In general terms, our national public school system is hampered by the general inertia of government activity in general, and the strangle-hold that teacher's unions have over the entire institution.

New, innovative ideas, such as those that exist in ALL private industries are a virtual impossibility in public education.  We don't make cars the same way as we did in 1900, we don't farm the same way, we don't sell things the same way, we don't mine coal the same way, we don't access medical treatment the same way...but we are still sending our kids to school the same way we did when the school year was determined by the need for kids to help out on the family farm.

Local and state school boards are petrified at the thought of changing anything significant (e.g., the school day, the school year), because they know that the Teachers' Unions will throw up a horrific fuss, and DEMAND that wages be doubled in order to compensate the teachers for the horrible stresses of making the change.

Teaching of reading, math, languages, history, civics, and the arts and sciences are all hogtied by the immutable teaching paradigms of yesteryear.  Even THE ARMY has a much better way of teaching foreign languages!   And the only avenues we have of making true innovations - private and charter schools - are FOUGHT VIOLENTLY by the teachers' unions with the full support of their political arm, the Democrat Party.

And BTW, standardized testing also impairs private and charter schools because they have to cover basically the same material at the same time, so as not to look bad by comparison to the public schools.  To illustrate, what if a charter school wanted to try "full-immersion math" for six months per year, and it was wildly successful.  They would be shut down because the students' reading scores would suffer.

And I won't mention the perennial problem of the impossibility of removing non-performing teachers, because it's minor, relatively speaking.


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## Unkotare (Feb 24, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> In general terms, our national public school system is hampered by the general inertia of government activity in general, and the strangle-hold that teacher's unions have over the entire institution.
> 
> New, innovative ideas, such as those that exist in ALL private industries are a virtual impossibility in public education.  We don't make cars the same way as we did in 1900, we don't farm the same way, we don't sell things the same way, we don't mine coal the same way, we don't access medical treatment the same way...but we are still sending our kids to school the same way we did when the school year was determined by the need for kids to help out on the family farm.
> 
> ...




You keep making these sorts of declarations, but we have established that you have no basis for doing so. You have no applicable training or experience, but you want to sound like you know what you're talking about. Why?


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## Markle (Feb 24, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> I wish some of these teacher wanabees will saddle up and show us how easily it can be done and how we are too busy screwing things up all of the time to be able to do our jobs better!



You see, with private schools, that doesn't happen.  Parents are involved.

By the way, I do teach.  I teach adults and have for about 30 years.  It is a hobby and something at which I am extremely good.  I also realize that there is no comparison between the two.


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## Unkotare (Feb 24, 2017)

Markle said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > I wish some of these teacher wanabees will saddle up and show us how easily it can be done and how we are too busy screwing things up all of the time to be able to do our jobs better!
> ...






...oh brother...


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## mgh80 (Feb 24, 2017)

Markle said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > I wish some of these teacher wanabees will saddle up and show us how easily it can be done and how we are too busy screwing things up all of the time to be able to do our jobs better!
> ...



Then what's the point of bringing it up? (No I don't expect an answer, just like I never got one after you made false claims-but it's cool the silence is much louder than lame excuse would be).


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## DGS49 (Feb 25, 2017)

Unk,

I hope you are truly not a teacher.  In a forum like this it is appropriate, if you choose to present a rebuttal, to make logical, fact or logic-based arguments.  Rarely do you do that,

I spent more than 20 years in classrooms of both public and private schools.  I have taught children (10-11 years old) and adults.  More importantly, I have seen non-traditional teaching/learning strategies working very well many times in my lengthy adult life.  Such strategies are near impossible in government schools, for the reasons stated.

Your arguments are similar to the argument that a child psychologist who has counselled parents and children for decades, is not qualified to do so because she is childless.

In short, it is ridiculous and ignorant.

Have a nice day.


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## Unkotare (Feb 25, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> Unk,
> 
> I hope you are truly not a teacher.  ....





You'll have to be disappointed.


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## Unkotare (Feb 25, 2017)

Unkotare said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > In general terms, our national public school system is hampered by the general inertia of government activity in general, and the strangle-hold that teacher's unions have over the entire institution.
> ...


.


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## psikeyhackr (Feb 25, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> psikeyhackr said:
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> 
> > Thunderbird said:
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Rene Descartes had a tablet computer with wi-fi access to Project Gutenberg?


> Lisa Betts-LaCroix personifies this attitude pretty well. She is no stranger to the various obsessions of the tech world—she leads the Silicon Valley chapter of Quantified Self, the personal tracking movement; her husband Joe has helmed a variety of computer and biotech startups. She has homeschooled her kids for the last nine years (though she prefers the term *“independent learning”*). When she started, it was seen as unusual. Now, she says, there are more than 500 families in her homeschooling group—a growing number of them tech entrepreneurs like her husband. She sees it as the latest expression of the industry’s push toward disintermediation. “We are going direct to learning,” she says. “We don’t need to hold to this old paradigm of top-down, someone tells me what to do.”


The Techies Who Are Hacking Education by Homeschooling Their Kids

Independent Learning can be done by individual students even while they attend normal schools.  It may help demonstrate how bad normal school is.

psik


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## Unkotare (Feb 25, 2017)

psikeyhackr said:


> Wry Catcher said:
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Wait for it.....


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## Markle (Feb 25, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> Markle said:
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> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
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mgh80 said:


> Then what's the point of bringing it up? (No I don't expect an answer, just like I never got one after you made false claims-but it's cool the silence is much louder than lame excuse would be).



Because you referred to teacher "wanabees" and I don't fit that description.  I don't teach kids, I teach someone far more educated and discerning.

Where did I make any false claims?


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## Markle (Feb 25, 2017)

mgh80 said:


> mgh80 said:
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You're point?


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## Thunderbird (Mar 8, 2017)

Some facts: New Evidence on School-Choice Successes in Wisconsin


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 8, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> Some facts: New Evidence on School-Choice Successes in Wisconsin



From your link:

"When factors such as poverty, race, and the number of students who are not proficient in English are taken into account and properly controlled for, we find that student outcomes on test scores are simply better in the private and charter sectors than they are in traditional public schools."

Read more at: New Evidence on School-Choice Successes in Wisconsin

For those unfamiliar with statistics, that is called skewing the data to reach a predetermined outcome.  They just didn't count kids who were poor, immigrants, and minorities.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 8, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> In general terms, our national public school system is hampered by the general inertia of government activity in general, and the strangle-hold that teacher's unions have over the entire institution.
> 
> New, innovative ideas, such as those that exist in ALL private industries are a virtual impossibility in public education.  We don't make cars the same way as we did in 1900, we don't farm the same way, we don't sell things the same way, we don't mine coal the same way, we don't access medical treatment the same way...but we are still sending our kids to school the same way we did when the school year was determined by the need for kids to help out on the family farm.
> 
> ...



Regarding your comments on the school schedules, while living in Florida before I became a teacher, my oldest two kids attended school year-round.   Guess who led the fight to return to the traditional summer-off schedule?  The PARENTS!  They didn't like taking their summer vacation in the middle of winter because Disney at 50 degrees is not as much fun!.  They also didn't like having one kid in school for weeks while the other kid was sitting at home. That was one thing I could not stand as my kids had different schedules.  They were off for two weeks of the year at the same time!  So much for visiting the grandparents!  Childcare facilities wanted out of it too!


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## Thunderbird (Mar 9, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> > Some facts: New Evidence on School-Choice Successes in Wisconsin
> ...


"When factors such as poverty, race, and the number of students who are not proficient in English are taken into account *and properly controlled for*, we find that student outcomes on test scores are simply better in the private and charter sectors than they are in traditional public schools."

Do you know what "and properly controlled for" means?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 9, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
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It means they fudge the numbers until the outcome is what they intended to prove.


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## Markle (Mar 9, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> The PARENTS! They didn't like taking their summer vacation in the middle of winter because Disney at 50 degrees is not as much fun!.



You don't live in Florida, do you?  Winter is, by far, the best time to visit Disney World.  That's the most comfortable time of year.  The coldest average temperature in Orlando is 61 degrees in January.  Quite comfortable walking around with maybe a light jacket or sweater.  Highest average temperature is August is 82 degrees meaning the days are 90's plus with high humidity.  

There may have been some local school boards which tried a 12 month school year but certainly not all.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 9, 2017)

Markle said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > The PARENTS! They didn't like taking their summer vacation in the middle of winter because Disney at 50 degrees is not as much fun!.
> ...



I lived in Florida for many years.  The reason more schools do not do the year-round schedule is the feedback they get from schools where it was tried and failed.

Rather than Disney, how about substituting the beach.  It's not very much fun in January unless you are in the Keys.


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## heil hitler (Mar 12, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> School choice is a euphemism for segregation.


Have you ever gone to an all Black school? What about an all Hispanic school?


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## OldLady (Mar 12, 2017)

Care4all said:


> Are private schools and charter schools subjected to the same testing, of "No child Left Behind" legislation as the Public Schools are...?
> 
> If they are NOT, and people think these private schools are BETTER schools than Public Schools, then why not ELIMINATE the rules for no child left behind in the Public Schools?  Or why not force the Private schools getting our tax dollars to meet the same testing standards required for Public Schools?
> 
> It should be apples to apples so the parents can be informed on a level basis, what school to choose for their child.


The big performance differences between most private schools and public schools are due to the fact that private schools can reject students who do not meet their performance criteria, and they can kick out students who behave badly.  Public schools have to take everyone and they can only expel a student if the student has other options or the school is willing to provide an alternative.  Makes it pretty nice for private schools.  I imagine it will be nice for Charter Schools, as well.


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## heil hitler (Mar 12, 2017)

OldLady said:


> The big performance differences between most private schools and public schools are due to the fact that private schools can reject students who do not meet their performance criteria, and they can kick out students who behave badly. Public schools have to take everyone and they can only expel a student if the student has other options or the school is willing to provide an alternative. Makes it pretty nice for private schools. I imagine it will be nice for Charter Schools, as well.



Maam, I believe that to be partially correct. I have found that school districts with large White and Asian student bodies tend to outperform those which do not. Additionally I dont think this is a question of funding. I think it is a question of I.Q. 
I think we pretend that we have a problem with the entire body of educational districts in this nation when in fat we have a problem with CERTAIN educational districts in this nation.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 12, 2017)

heil hitler said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > School choice is a euphemism for segregation.
> ...



Nope.  I attended schools in San Francisco, on the block I was raised English, Chinese, Spanish and Hebrew were languages spoken.  The City is cosmopolitan, not that I'm proud of it, but the first time I got drunk (8th grade) I was with a Russian, a Greek, an Irishman; and I'm a mutt (French, German, Italian and Romanian).


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## heil hitler (Mar 12, 2017)

Wry Catcher said:


> heil hitler said:
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> > Wry Catcher said:
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I truly commend you on your honesty. Thank you so much.
However, I have been to all Black schools...on both coasts. Let me tell you something; you aint seen nothing until you have gone to an all black school in the hood. I am an old bird. I went to Black Schools in the 80's with metal detectors, video cameras and armed police officers. They were all there for a reason because those kids were out of control. Nothing was taught and nothing was accomplished except partially accounting for heads from 8-3pm. It was literally a detention center. 
Those kids acted like animals because they were raised like animals. Not because there was inadequate funding. Not because the teachers didn't care enough (most of them actually didn't but WTF would?).
My point is this. NO amount of money will cure that because this isn't a SCHOOL thing. This is a home thing. This is a thing about parents and illegitimacy and crime and violence.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 12, 2017)

heil hitler said:


> Wry Catcher said:
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Which is why Head Start is crucial in many communities. 

My 32-year career in Law Enforcement put me in contact with such schools, because I wrote and managed grants for both adults and juveniles.  One grant included social workers, probation officers, police officers and deputy sheriffs, along with teachers, counselors, technocrats and business leaders.

Another grant funded a unit of Probation Officers assigned to supervise offenders convicted of domestic violence who had children under the age of 16.  The offenders took anger management class, drug and or alcohol treatment with a search class allowing our deputies to make sure no guns were owned or in possession of the offender; while the PO's acted as mentors to the children, and the victims attended programs for battered women (yes nearly 100% of the cases were men abusing women).

Another grant put County Probation Officers's and City Police Officers on middle school and high school campuses keeping the peace and working with the school districts doing random truancy roundups.  That was a lot of fun, much dope was recovered, as well as too many adults hanging out with these kids - the kids got a ride to school and were released to their parent(s); the adults went to county jail.


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