# Are We Alone in the Universe?



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.

First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.htm

Ok, for me and over this 36 years interfacing with NASA and assorted agencies, I have come to the conclusion then, and now, that our universe, or closer in, our Galaxy, is host to lifeforms on a level of Star Trek-The Next Generation. I think it is a swarm of life, intelligent and everything in between.

ST-TNG, the federation, is 8000 Light Years (LYs) in diameter, and look at the life that is entailed in that fictional quadrant of our galaxy. I truly feel that whole world of grand fiction will play out in the near future to not only be true, but more so, conservative by numbers.

Here's why:

1. Our sun is a class C type star and is found to be the most common star type in the cosmos.

2. These star types tend to be the most stable and longest lived.

3. They last upwards of 6 billion years.

4. They have multiple planets, with at least one in the "Goldilocks Zone", where liquid water is present on the surface, thus the right distance from the home star.

5. And on carbon based planets, this is the condition for life, as we know it.

Further, like the movie, _"Start Trek: First Contact"_, we are going to leave our home place. We will do so when we have developed something that is SoL+ or, a WARP drive if you will. From that, we are free.

And if we are free to explore out beyond our local solar neighborhood, we would obviously be able to reach out to other Class C worlds, for no other reason than to see if we are right. 

And, aside from the darker psychopaths that post on all these myriad of boards to the contrary, NASA and all other space agencies around the planet is pushing the technology to "see" out there what is there. And it reasons well, if we are not alone, others out there are doing the same, looking back.

If we don't "see" each other at some point, or we get out there and then run into someone else, the treasure chest is open.

So, categorically, WE ARE NOT ALONE!!

In the not so near future, in our lifetimes even, we are going to get a message, anything, that will simply be "Hello.  Are you there?"

Behold.

_Comments encouraged greatly._

Robert


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

I have no math or science skills to stand on, Robert, but if I were betting, I'd put $5 on "we are alone".  It is certainly possible we are not, but what are the odds that if things are as you describe (no doubt you're correct), the Earth is the most advanced planet and the occupants of none of the others have bothered to reach out and touch us?

I view ET the same way I do ghosts:  could be, but doesn't seem terribly likely.

BTW, is there or isn't there evidence of life on Mars in the distant past?


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## Mr. H. (Feb 14, 2011)

We're just ugly bags of mostly water.


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> We're just ugly bags of mostly water.



Shame on you, Mr. H!  And on V Day, too!

LOL.


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> We're just ugly bags of mostly water.




you remembered that from ST-TNG eh?


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Earthlings: Ugly Bags of Mostly Water (2004) - IMDb


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> I have no math or science skills to stand on, Robert, but if I were betting, I'd put $5 on "we are alone".  It is certainly possible we are not, but what are the odds that if things are as you describe (no doubt you're correct), the Earth is the most advanced planet and the occupants of none of the others have bothered to reach out and touch us?
> 
> I view ET the same way I do ghosts:  could be, but doesn't seem terribly likely.
> 
> BTW, is there or isn't there evidence of life on Mars in the distant past?



We do not know if there has been life on Mars in the past......._yet_.

There was a time only 455 years ago, that the world in a central part of the European continent felt the Earth was flat.  Anyone who suggested otherwise were severely punished.

I think the Drake Formula works best if you suggest even 5 for a start and see what happens.

The conditions for developed life is great.  If it happened here, it can happen elsewhere, everything else on balance on what we are rapidly learning and seeing.

_John 10:16:  "I have sheep not of this fold."_

Robert


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## California Girl (Feb 14, 2011)

Given the vastness of space, I'd say it is more than likely that life exists elsewhere.


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## California Girl (Feb 14, 2011)

When I followed the link provided by Robert....



> The page you are looking for:
> 
> /Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.htm
> 
> ...



Whoever Bradley Keyes is, he's a damned funny guy.


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Madeline said:
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> > I have no math or science skills to stand on, Robert, but if I were betting, I'd put $5 on "we are alone".  It is certainly possible we are not, but what are the odds that if things are as you describe (no doubt you're correct), the Earth is the most advanced planet and the occupants of none of the others have bothered to reach out and touch us?
> ...



Is there some principle in science that if a thing could happen, it will/more than likely will?  I'm not asking in a snotty way...I'm wondering why it is not just as likely that life on Earth is some weird fluke that has not been repeated?

Isn't it also true that if a thing could happen, it may not?

If I find a rare wildflower in the woods beside my house, does that raise the odds that other woods with similar micro-ecosystems will also contain that flower?


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


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It is called "The Serendipity of Chance". It is part of the Drake Formula as well. The pattern in life is a conundrum:  All things pattern more than once, different by detail in each. Unique, yet, multitudes. 

Since there are upwards of 120,000,000,000 (120 billion) stars in our galaxy alone, and 68% of  them are Class C like our sun, it suggest heavily that life at the 4 billion year mark here, has happened elsewhere.

Robert


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

Then why have we not been contacted?


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Then why have we not been contacted?


do you not understand the distance factor?


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> Madeline said:
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But Divey, not even a television broadcast?  No radio?


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## Article 15 (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Then why have we not been contacted?



Probably because they don't have the technology to do so. 

Or they have and gov'ts kept it under wraps.


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

again, the distance factor means it takes a very long time for those signals to get from point A to point B
and radio waves do not move at the speed of light
i dont remember how far away the closes C class star is from us, but i think its over 100 LY


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## California Girl (Feb 14, 2011)

If I were ET, and had dropped by earth, I wouldn't bother contacting us. I'd sit up there and laugh at the antics of such a planet full of idiots.


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## Article 15 (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> again, the distance factor means it takes a very long time for those signals to get from point A to point B
> and radio waves do not move at the speed of light
> i dont remember how far away the closes C class star is from us, but i think its over 100 LY



Radio travels at the speed of light in space.

But I agree that the sheer distance such communication has to travel is silly long and takes forever.


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Then why have we not been contacted?



Distance.  Thus, Time.

At the Speed of Light it would take 100,000 years for light to traverse our Galaxy. We travel in space, manned, %0.000000004 the speed of light. Until we develop a faster than light drive, we are marooned here.

Same for other civilizations unless they are ahead of us in development.

Robert


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> again, the distance factor means it takes a very long time for those signals to get from point A to point B
> and radio waves do not move at the speed of light
> i dont remember how far away the closes C class star is from us, but i think its over 100 LY



CV22.34, at 27 LY distant. 

Robert


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

Humm.  Well, if ET exists, does science also posit what he looks like?  Would he have to be humanoid in some vague way?

Could there intelligent mold, say?


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Article 15 said:


> DiveCon said:
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> > again, the distance factor means it takes a very long time for those signals to get from point A to point B
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doh, my bad
i was thinking the speed of sound


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Is there a way to estimate the number of technologically advanced civilizations that might exist in our Galaxy? While working at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Green Bank, West Virginia, Dr. Frank Drake conceived a means to mathematically estimate the number of worlds that might harbor beings with technology sufficient to communicate across the vast gulfs of interstellar space. The Drake Equation, as it came to be known, was formulated in 1961 and is generally accepted by the scientific community.
N = R* fp ne fl fi fc L

where, 
N = The number of communicative civilizations
R* = The rate of formation of suitable stars (stars such as our Sun)
fp = The fraction of those stars with planets. (Current evidence indicates that planetary systems may be common for stars like the Sun.)
ne = The number of Earth-like worlds per planetary system
fl = The fraction of those Earth-like planets where life actually develops
fi = The fraction of life sites where intelligence develops
fc = The fraction of communicative planets (those on which electromagnetic communications technology develops)
L = The "lifetime" of communicating civilizations
Frank Drake's own current solution to the Drake Equation estimates 10,000 communicative civilizations in the Milky Way. Dr. Drake, who serves on the SETI League's advisory board, has personally endorsed SETI's planned all-sky survey.

That is a fair number. From our knowledge, intelligence doesn't "mold" unless it is seeing Nibiru quite a bit or stars floating in our solar system other than our sun.

Robert


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> DiveCon said:
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wow, only 27 LY?
hmmm then if there is intelligent life on that one, they should have received at least some radio or tv signals by now


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## Article 15 (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


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Yeah, you would think.  Of course the odds against intelligent life being there are enormous so I'm not holding my breath.


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


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Yes.

Since radio travels at the SoL, and since radio was started 108 years ago. Our entire civilization has been broadcasted out to 108 LYs. That has reached 8 stars like our sun. Those, as we know it, have planets but it is unconfirmed what type panets they are. _Yet._

The downside of this means they have received untold episodes of Bonanza.

Robert


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## sparky (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Then why have we not been contacted?



_my _theory?

well, we've _all _lived next to the _F*cko's_ right?  I mean, sorts that are so amazingly _ socially stunted_ one waits until they're not in sight to enter or leave their own abode, because the _less _you have to deal with them , the _better_.....


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


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and casey kasum


LOL

of course thats assuming they are capable enough to decode it and understand it


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## sparky (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


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## Article 15 (Feb 14, 2011)

CV22.34 is now entering it's hair band phase.


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

sparky said:


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

So, how many stars are there out to about 100 LY from Earth.

A few years ago the Hipparcos sattelite measured distances to ~120,000 nearby stars, so somewhere there is an exact answer to this question. I don't know to what magniture Hipparcos could measure parallaxes for, and whether it could see the dimmest M dwarfs 100 light years away, so it may or may not have observed all the stars within 100 light years. Given how dim M dwarfs are, I would guess it probably didn't. In other words, somewone probably figured out exactly how many stars in the Hipparcos catalog are withi 100 light years, but I don't know that answer, or whether that ould be all of the actual stars within 100 light years (~30 parsecs). 

So, here's an estimate. In our part of the Galaxy, the average distance between stars is about 1 parsec. (30 pc~100 ly). 4pi/3* (30 pc)^3 is about 113,000 stars out to a distance of 30 pc or about 100 lightyears. Now, about half of the star systems are binaries or multiple systems, so 113000 + 113000/2 is about 170,000 stars. That's a lot! 

As for how many have planets, well, we have detected several hundred extrasolar planets, but they are almost all very large planets orbiting very close to their parent star, simply because this is what is easiest to detect. The more we look, the more we'll probably find, so there are probably many thousands of planets within 100 ly of our solar system.

Robert


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## editec (Feb 14, 2011)

I suspect that there is life all over the place in various states of development.

However those at our stage of development are probably rather rare.

And I suspect that a LOT of life that does reach our stage of development doesn't suvive long enough to reach mush more advanced stages of development, either.

So if there are adcanced species who have reached the point where they could travel though time and space, and if they know that we exist, I also don't doubt that they are smart enough to understand that we need to SAVE OURSELVES before we will be ready to make contact with more advanced civilizations.

AFter all, if a species is NOT smart enough to handle one planet well enough to keep itself alive, why on earth would you want those primatives sharing the universe with those that were intelligent enough to get past this critical junction in species development?


Would YOU supply savages with the advanced technology to ruin _your_ neighborhood?


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

editec said:


> I suspect that there is life all over the place in various states of development.
> 
> However those at our stage of development are probably rather rare.
> 
> ...



The last sentence question, answered first:  Yes, I do and would. I am an Archaeologist for NASA.  And do high end thermal and visual imaging for them.  I help and like everybody. Unless they try to kill me and then that is what the 12 gauge is for.

So, it seems logical, that since we help everyone who cannot help themselves here, other civilizations would do the same if they found us and had the means to travel at WARP speed to get here.

It is popular now that all things, and all life,  is BAD. I'm not certain where this comes from, but its disturbing. Our planet is fine and in no way in danger of failing.  It's been here for 4.3 billion years, and will remain a few more billion.

Robert


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

So, that March 15th drop dead date has been extended?


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

I have another question, Robert.  Yanno that tv show "Life After People"?  Fascinating stuff....but if ever such a thing happened, wouldn't people just evolve all over again?


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## rikules (Feb 14, 2011)

California Girl said:


> Given the vastness of space, I'd say it is more than likely that life exists elsewhere.



you use way too much illegal drugs


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## uscitizen (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> I have no math or science skills to stand on, Robert, but if I were betting, I'd put $5 on "we are alone".  It is certainly possible we are not, but what are the odds that if things are as you describe (no doubt you're correct), the Earth is the most advanced planet and the occupants of none of the others have bothered to reach out and touch us?
> 
> I view ET the same way I do ghosts:  could be, but doesn't seem terribly likely.
> 
> BTW, is there or isn't there evidence of life on Mars in the distant past?



Umm Maddie why would they want to reach out and touch us?
I mean really if they are advanced enough to travel hundreds of light years why fool with us?

Would most of us like to hang out with abos in Austrailia?  Or people living in huts and using spears in mid Africa?
Heck most of us just avoid the trailer trash and ghettos.


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## rikules (Feb 14, 2011)

editec said:


> I suspect that there is life all over the place in various states of development.
> 
> However those at our stage of development are probably rather rare.
> 
> ...



when we bring 3rd world primitive savages as immigrants to live in our inner cities and towns....

aren't we doing just that?


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## uscitizen (Feb 14, 2011)

And remember I am from the Beta Traingula system 

A good disguise though?  I have a trained human that fronts for me though.  Intelligent cat appearing creatures have no rights on this planet.


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## Madeline (Feb 14, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > I have no math or science skills to stand on, Robert, but if I were betting, I'd put $5 on "we are alone".  It is certainly possible we are not, but what are the odds that if things are as you describe (no doubt you're correct), the Earth is the most advanced planet and the occupants of none of the others have bothered to reach out and touch us?
> ...



Hey, I resemble that remark!


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Then why have we not been contacted?


Good question. If Alien Life forms are so much more advanced than us as some like to think, then they should have already invented new forms of travel, new energy sources and communication forms that we haven't even thought of yet right?

They would have a massively greater understanding of the Universe and It's physical laws correct? They would have found other dimensions if they exist right?

But then again, they may think there is no real need for them to contact us at all.


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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...






I read "Habitable Planets for Man" decades ago and could find nothing wrong with the logic then or now.  The sheer number of planetary bodies that MUST exist simply precludes the belief that we are alone in the universe.  That said, I think it will be a very long time until we get a greeting from anyone. 

 Hopefully we'll get a smart pres in place who will fund space exploration again and we can get a FTL drive going so we can explore the universe in a proper way and more importantly get off this single rock where we are oh so vulnerable to outside influences.


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> So, that March 15th drop dead date has been extended?



As always.

Robert


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Madeline said:


> I have another question, Robert.  Yanno that tv show "Life After People"?  Fascinating stuff....but if ever such a thing happened, wouldn't people just evolve all over again?



Yes, in high probability, since the DNA strand would still be here. 

Good question.

Robert


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> Madeline said:
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I address this elsewhere in this thread, but you added a new bent to it. 

Dimensions.

For all purposes, we are marooned here in our home place, even if we could do WARP 10. The distances are just to unfathomable. But one of the vectors of Astrophysics is looking at the possibility of simply controlling time itself or dimensional traveling, whereby distance, thus time, is not a factor any longer.

Besides that, again, we are marooned sadly. For example, ar WARP 9.5 it would still take us 11 years to cross the Milky Way Galaxy from one side to the other, at only 100,000 LY diameter. ST universe is only 8,000 LY in diameter in exploration at that point in the show.
If visitors had mastered those things, since we would be no threat at all at that level of technology, they would come to us out of inquiry and archaeology and anthropology if nothing else. Like the movie presents in the Nicolas Cage piece, "Knowing", they would simply be here to rescue to assure the species. 

Good post.

Robert


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


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only 8,00 LY?
all 4 quadrants?
Alpha, Delta, Gamma, and i forget the other one(i think it was only in 1 show)


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

westwall said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> ...



Correct and my sentiments exactly. With FTL drive or WARP, if you will or some form of it, we are free of our home place. Now, it is a terrible tease; we can "see", but we can't "go". I hate it, personally.

All we need is a forward thinker president who knows the prospect what a FTL drive would hold for the rest of us.  And we Americans are so wonderfully crazy we could do it in 10 years. I think that is why we all love "Star Trek, First Contact" so much.......the promise of what lies across that next horizon.......or _what is heaven for...._

Great post.

Robert


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> only 8,00 LY?
> all 4 quadrants?
> Alpha, Delta, Gamma, and i forget the other one(i think it was only in 1 show)



Yes. In the ST movie, "ST: First Contact", when Picard is leading the black woman around the Enterprise, who was from the 21st century, he is explaining how far in the 24th century mankind has expanded out and she ask, "then, how big is this Federation then?".  He answers:  "At current, the Federation spans 8000 light years, with 80 different cultures and more we have not found yet."  They are trying to defeat the Borg.

In the ST world, with WARP 9.5 available, that is reasonable.

It also tells us how WARP made it all possible.

Robert


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## American Horse (Feb 14, 2011)

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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


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The US was founded by the pioneer spirit by men such as Jim Bridger and Kit Carson, the "west" as it was called wasn't truly a geographic location, it was a ideal, a thought that there was something better on the other side of the river or the mountain range.   The mountain range is now space/time.  The modern day astronauts embody that same spirit and desire to "see what's out there" and hopefully we'll get a visionary who will let us go.


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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

American Horse said:


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

American Horse said:


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## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...



I have no doubt that life exists on other worlds.  What I dispute is the naive search for contact.  There is no life form here on earth that is not predatory in some manner.  That leads me to the conclusion that any life found would also be predatory.  Sending our television and radio broadcasts out into space is foolish IMO.  That space probe with all the 411 about earth and humans was like sending out a menu.  IMO it will end up being our undoing.

We as humans have always thought of ourselves as special and worse than that protected by some invisible being.  I just hope that whatever is out there doesn't find us tasty.


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

westwall said:


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Superb metaphor.  Agree wholeheartedly. Now, we must go.......

Robert


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## Toro (Feb 14, 2011)

I do not believe we are alone in the universe.  I think it is a statistical impossibility that we are.

Having said that, I don't think UFOs are beaming up cows over Kansas farms nightly either.


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> I have no doubt that life exists on other worlds.  What I dispute is the naive search for contact.  There is no life form here on earth that is not predatory in some manner.  That leads me to the conclusion that any life found would also be predatory.  Sending our television and radio broadcasts out into space is foolish IMO.  That space probe with all the 411 about earth and humans was like sending out a menu.  IMO it will end up being our undoing.
> 
> We as humans have always thought of ourselves as special and worse than that protected by some invisible being.  I just hope that whatever is out there doesn't find us tasty.



A few corrections:  The radio transmissions are not "sent",  they go out everywhere in all directions as they are "broadcasts", not direct signals "sent". They travel no different than the wind here on Earth, out in space. They just are, and have been since the first day of radio, then TV and now everything.

We basically, have a good thread within us, regardless of the bad, or we would not have survived for the last 1 million years&#8804;&#8805;, so, it tends to suggest we will also abide on our tomorrows.

Just as we would not be predatory (look at the plaque on the side of Voyager 1, heading out to the Orion Arm of our galaxy in a few billion years), it stands that whomever finds us, would also not be predatory in return.  

In what way is our search or seeking for off solar worlds naive?

The SETI signal, operating in all bands, all radio waves, 24/7/365, broadcast a signal of code in alpha numeric that can be decoded by anyone that can receive it, says, "Hello, we are here.  We are Human beings.  We are located at (coordinates). Please acknowledge.  Thank you."

A beacon, in the vast ocean of being alone, so far as we know. 
Fittingly, along with this, is the words of Carl Sagan's "The Pale Blue Dot".

Clarify for us please on naive.

Thank you.

Robert


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Toro said:


> I do not believe we are alone in the universe.  I think it is a statistical impossibility that we are.
> 
> Having said that, I don't think UFOs are beaming up cows over Kansas farms nightly either.



Agree totally. Also, I do not think anyone is being "anal probed" other than in Berkley. 

We are not alone, we will soon find I surmise.

Robert


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## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

I further suspect that we will stupidly go on trying to find other life and eventually come into contact with it somewhere in deep space way before we "find" it on some planet.  It will no doubt "find" us out there first and study whatever it is we have sent out there.  If "they" have survived long enough to get to a point in developing the environment where they can waste resources by "exploring"  in person it is likely the vessel we encounter will be huge.  It will have to store vast quantities of whatever sustains their life and have enough shielding for energy rays and layers to absorb the odd meteorite with out being destroyed.  In any case I even further suspect that assuming these "things" will have human characteristics like the Star Trek Characters is way beyond foolish.  If THEY are out looking for something it will be something that benefits THEM.


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## uscitizen (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

westwall said:


> This is only true for life like we are.  There are many possible forms of life that don't use carbon as their basis.  In those instances Jupiter would be a fine place for life to evolve.  We are but one possible form of life, there are countless others.



We are carbon and water based as a lifeform. To then search for same, the same parameters of what is here, is all we have to go on for fact elsewhere, so that is what we use in the search. I hold that somewhere out there is something like The Borg. But that remains to be investigated when we can leave here, even though there is evidence of Borg, posting on some of these threads. 

So, yes, there could be life everywhere, but intelligent developed life as per the Drake Equation remains elusive at this time.

Robert


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## Grace (Feb 14, 2011)

"Hello. We are right here. Come visit"

And every nuke, every weapon at our disposal will be there to greet them. Because that's what humans do.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 14, 2011)

In a word.......yes


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > I have no doubt that life exists on other worlds.  What I dispute is the naive search for contact.  There is no life form here on earth that is not predatory in some manner.  That leads me to the conclusion that any life found would also be predatory.  Sending our television and radio broadcasts out into space is foolish IMO.  That space probe with all the 411 about earth and humans was like sending out a menu.  IMO it will end up being our undoing.
> ...




Thank you,

Sean


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> I further suspect that we will stupidly go on trying to find other life and eventually come into contact with it somewhere in deep space way before we "find" it on some planet.  It will no doubt "find" us out there first and study whatever it is we have sent out there.  If "they" have survived long enough to get to a point in developing the environment where they can waste resources by "exploring"  in person it is likely the vessel we encounter will be huge.  It will have to store vast quantities of whatever sustains their life and have enough shielding for energy rays and layers to absorb the odd meteorite with out being destroyed.  In any case I even further suspect that assuming these "things" will have human characteristics like the Star Trek Characters is way beyond foolish.  If THEY are out looking for something it will be something that benefits THEM.




Good points but not necessarily.  History has proven that discovery proceeds acquisition and that acquisition only succeeds by mutual consent. We are past conquest. But we are on the frontier of discovery. It holds that would be likewise, with few exceptions for others we may encounter upcoming. 

On the other hand, I always have a dark vision of waking up one morning and seeing this:






_by, Robert A.M. Stephens, Courtesy, 20th Century Fox_

.........and that would be very very bad.

Robert


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Sean,

Consider:  They felt this way about Columbus in 1491.

Robert


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

I also have visions of this, at some point:






Robert


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## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > I further suspect that we will stupidly go on trying to find other life and eventually come into contact with it somewhere in deep space way before we "find" it on some planet.  It will no doubt "find" us out there first and study whatever it is we have sent out there.  If "they" have survived long enough to get to a point in developing the environment where they can waste resources by "exploring"  in person it is likely the vessel we encounter will be huge.  It will have to store vast quantities of whatever sustains their life and have enough shielding for energy rays and layers to absorb the odd meteorite with out being destroyed.  In any case I even further suspect that assuming these "things" will have human characteristics like the Star Trek Characters is way beyond foolish.  If THEY are out looking for something it will be something that benefits THEM.
> ...



You are probably the smartest guy here on USMB , and I'm no slouch, but you remind me a bit of my mom that graduated U of W at 19 yrs.  She was book smart and a street idiot.  Now I'm not saying you are an idiot..  maybe a smidge foolish.  

Ya I know you go around in the jungle in your fancy jeep and everything but the truth is that you are damned lucky and I think you know it.  My money says you should have already been killed for the gold in your teeth and the valuable parts of your rig.  

I used to fly in and out of Colombia  and there are "different worlds" here on our own planet let alone out there where the template for success may be a program we are in no way ready for.

You would be wise to reflect on the permanent consequences of something like your "vision" occurring.


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## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Robert_Stephens said:
> ...



Consider:  If I was an Native American Chief none of those sailing ships would have made it back to Europe.

Please do not misunderestimate me!   I am not one of those "either/or" people.  I am just earnestly advocating caution in our inevitable exploration.


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## uscitizen (Feb 14, 2011)

Damn illegal immigrants!


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## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Hey!  I undergetit!..  If all the scientists came out and declared that most likely any advanced life form we encounter might very well eat us or harvest all of the liquid water from our ice caps that would put a big dampener on space exploration.  This isn't a dare at the big swing that goes out over the big rocks at the summer lake.  This is potentially for ALL the chips.  I would be more certain before I bet the house.


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> Damn illegal immigrants!


there were no immigration laws back then, so no illegals


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## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

If a cow could be taught to talk would we stop eating hamburgers?


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## Grace (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> If a cow could be taught to talk would we stop eating hamburgers?




Interesting question.


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



This post of yours is so fucking cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I love it!!!!

Ok, so you know, and you are right, in my years of being all over the world, including downtown Timbuktu, Mali Empire, Africa, in all my travels in these 35 years, I've had to kill 7 bad men in three different countries, who were trying to kill me by making me pay a road toll on a public road.  I FUCKING DON'T DO TOLLS!!!!  I told them that. I told them I would kill them all if they did not stop, have a smoke and chat about life. Most of the time, we talk.  Good. 

But, that is what the 870 Remington 12 gauge Magnum is for with 8 shot mag. extension.

Growing up in Montana and hunting and fishing and firefighting summers and logging in the winters, made me fairly adept at not doing horse shit off of baddies.

Other than that, I love everybody.....mostly.  I am very _peaceful_.....

And so you know, I NEVER go through Columbia anymore. EVER!!! Haven't for 14 years. Assholes all!. And its so frustrating since they are strategically right at the end and entrance of South America from the canal. I have to go either to the Pacific by ship and come in at Quitos Equador, or Atlantic side and come in at Caracas Venzueula.  Crummy deal.

Lastly, I have been in 132 of the Earth's 195 nation states. I understand.

So, still holds, 7 out of  billions isn't bad, from my personal view. I think this holds by what is on our horizon. There will be Borg and ID4, but that is not on our horizon, _yet._

Great post.  Brilliant in fact.  And I am very very aware!!!!!

Thank you! 

Robert


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## xsited1 (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Are We Alone in the Universe?



I'm not.  There at least 6 billion other people that share the planet with me.


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## Dr Grump (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert Stephens


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> Robert Stephens



I assume that icon is good. Or, do I shoot it.....?  If the former, I am pleased and thank you so much--cool. If not, well, I still don't do tolls..........

Robert


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## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> Robert Stephens


yes, i'm sure ufowatchdog is highly credible


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Someone is trying to charge me a toll. Did you read my response to you on page 5, bottom. And I love UFO Watchdog group.  So funny and so cool to unpack them over the years. Oh well, a case  for the Borg if ever there was one. 

Your response to me was brilliant, BTW, on page 5, bottom.
Again, thank you.

Robert


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## Dr Grump (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Robert Stephens
> ...



Oh, I agree. Just found it interesting...


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> Robert Stephens



There is just as much if not more to support his life story.

SIGHTINGS

There is a certain "clique" of yapping dogs on this site that are just plain jealous of anyone that gets Out There and does something.  

I find the dude interesting.  I would much rather be entertained by his stories and knowledge than listen to the tired whining from those that have balls like knats.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> Robert Stephens



Robert Stephens

Good 'ol Art Bell, from 11 years ago.  Too funny. I've never been in the Armed services.  He tried everything, but in the end lost and is now in the Philippines. Good.

Robert


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## Dr Grump (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Robert Stephens
> ...



Now, now Sean, I hope you're not putting me in that category....
...I see Robert a bit like Long John Silver - likes a tall tale or too and would be an interesting chap to have a beer or two with....


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## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Robert Stephens
> ...



Well actually, there is much more. 12 years ago I and Phil Platt were frequent guest on his radio show. I caught Hoagy in several lies, Bell cut me off, and that was the end of it. Then, Bell sued me for $60 million dollars. I won. He left the country.

Bad deal  but fun. It is why if they are too far off like some here or Tarrel or the like there is no point as they have something ajar mentally. But, this medium lets one be anything one wants to be.

Type into Google:  'Robert A.M. Stephens, NASA'

Or, 'Robert A.M. Stephens, NASA Art'

Fun stuff, some good and some bad.

Robert


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


isnt that about when he abruptly left coast2coast and George Noory took over?


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Every good pirate likes to spin a yarn or two.  Adventure is just as much in the readers imagination as it is in the facts.  Only the story teller knows for sure where reality and imagination exchange seats.  Even then memory errs on a good story.  Truth be told the best adventure is a handful of exciting events spaced by tedious waiting.  A good story just spares the audience the dullness of the waiting.


----------



## Dr Grump (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Every good pirate likes to spin a yarn or two.  Adventure is just as much in the readers imagination as it is in the facts.  Only the story teller knows for sure where reality and imagination exchange seats.  Even then memory errs on a good story.  Truth be told the best adventure is a handful of exciting events spaced by tedious waiting.  A good story just spares the audience the dullness of the waiting.



True!


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Yes. and Hoag and the TEM took a hit that lasted for a year.  It was good times. But they are as insane as ever and steal so much stuff from NASA, me, Bad Astronomy, Space.com, and so many others source, and claim it as their own.  Sad, but humorous in a dark perverse sort of way.

Robert


----------



## Paulie (Feb 14, 2011)

Article 15 said:


> CV22.34 is now entering it's hair band phase.



Well then lets blow it up before it enters its skinny jeans phase.


----------



## Sheldon (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> again, the distance factor means it takes a very long time for those signals to get from point A to point B
> and radio waves do not move at the speed of light
> i dont remember how far away the closes C class star is from us, but i think its over 100 LY




And that's assuming the civilization with that kind of technology doesn't also have the technology to blow themselves up... and hasn't done so already.


----------



## Grace (Feb 14, 2011)

I did a quick browse, Robert, in google.
Just for curiosity..did the woman/cancer thing ever get straightened out or did she never respond at all?


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Sheldon said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > again, the distance factor means it takes a very long time for those signals to get from point A to point B
> ...



I doubt it is a game limited to just two players.  Following MY tack there are many possible scenarios that could be playing out.  Let's postulate that there are at least a thousand advanced species.  If my "survival of the fittest/predatory" theory holds true then there will have already been "wars" between species. Peremptory strikes, retaliations...winners, losers.  Now is so relative in that what we are looking at through the Hubble happened millions and billions of years ago.  What we might "find" *now* would certainly have changed beyond all recognition and certainty by the time we might actually visit or communicate with in any form.  What may appear as benign at first blush could be taken over by a much more lethal species by the time the message got there that we are interested in a pow wow.

Even if some of the life out there is not hostile...to assume all of it is is just fucking madness.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> If a cow could be taught to talk would we stop eating hamburgers?



Work up an equation for the possiblity of cows speaking and be as famous as Drake. There have been billions of cows that have never spoke. The odds of one coming along have to be getting better all the time. Infinity is so fun to speculate about that even a mathematician can act like a party animal.


----------



## Sheldon (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Sheldon said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...






Yeah who knows. Maybe there's a species that's evolved so highly that they no long have their animal, dog eat dog, instincts--they've bred-out their version of the medula oblongota like it was an appendix.

The thing about life "out there", is that I could write whatever I wanted it to be and it would be no more or less true than anyones else's for all we don't know. Basically we're all just talking about of our asses, here.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> I did a quick browse, Robert, in google.
> Just for curiosity..did the woman/cancer thing ever get straightened out or did she never respond at all?



How cool you would ask.  Wow.

Yes, Naomi Bronson ended up getting ahold of me and I got her in to the U of Washington Oncology Center in Seattle, WA and she got treated and I funded it and within a year she was in remission and is now doing quite well, bless her heart.

_Always save the maidens!!_

Thank you for asking.

Robert


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Sheldon said:


> Yeah who knows. Maybe there's a species that's evolved so highly that they no long have their animal, dog eat dog, instincts--they've bred-out their version of the medula oblongota like it was an appendix.
> 
> The thing about life "out there", is that I could write whatever I wanted it to be and it would be no more or less true than anyones else's for all we don't know. Basically we're all just talking about of our asses, here.



This is the point I was and am making and trying to, on topic:  If you saw the incredible movie with Nicolas Cage, called, "Knowing", those visitors are and were probably well featured of what we are talking about with the last numeric of the Drake Equation:  in that they are not out for anything under the guise of _bad guy-good guy_, since their technology is so far advanced its not even an issue.

It is more in the world in inquisition and discovery, rather than some sort of planetary conquest.  This is a fact only in that there comes always a big big boot on a little ant hill.  

In that window, we will either find them or they find us and we exchange. It will go from there as intelligent beings tend to do.

Robert


----------



## Toro (Feb 14, 2011)

I don't know.  I need to ask an expert about these things.

Where's Terral?


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Awesome.......yes, query it?

Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Bob,

Usually eternal optimists get on my nerves.  Strangely you do not evoke that in me.  If not for the outcome of a handful of battles in WWII this world would be an entirely different place.  In the entire history of the modern human race how could any outside observer look at us and determine we are a peaceful species.

We are living in an anomaly.  Even though there is less wanton carnage during our lifetime than is usually the case in our history the bigger picture of time suggests a far less benign and forgiving judgment.    

I am curious how you arrive at the prediction that alien life will be "nice" based on our track record.  We are still murdering each other at a pretty good clip.  24,000 in the USA alone last year.  Then there are the more organized "will of the people" killings as governments will do in our names. 

Is there some formula that aides your speculation?  Do you just "want" us to be these kind and benevolent creatures in spite of the evidence and hope as you will for our goodness,  transfer that dream as a projection onto extra terrestrial life? 

Let's just speculate that aliens have been watching us...  what do you think they might believe with more weight?..  Your or my wishful thinking or FBI statistics?

If aliens are atheistic we are fucked.  They would look at us and think we are almost all out of our minds.

If they have a god it would most certainly conflict with our gods and present an entirely different problem.  You know damn well that these crazy Christians ..possibly you included(I saw your Christian site affiliation) and Muslims would rather die than accept an alien god.

Sean Corey


----------



## Dr Grump (Feb 14, 2011)

I don't think the Christopher Columbus comparison is a good one. Back then, even though he and his men were exploratory in nature, they were still very ignorant vis-a-vis physics and a plethora of other knowledge that we know now. The kind of people we have working on the various space programmes around the world are not the conquering kind. They are geeks. Most astronauts are University Educated airmen and women, scientists etc. 

I tend to side with those that think if somebody running around exploring space I doubt, that once they found a new place, they would then set about destroying it. Unless they are a species like those found on science fiction such as Independence Day or that terrible movie Skyline...


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Bob,
> 
> Usually eternal optimists get on my nerves.  Strangely you do not evoke that in me.  If not for the outcome of a handful of battles in WWII this world would be an entirely different place.  In the entire history of the modern human race how could any outside observer look at us and determine we are a peaceful species.
> 
> ...


ever seen the movie "the Abyss"?


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> I don't think the Christopher Columbus comparison is a good one. Back then, even though he and his men were exploratory in nature, they were still very ignorant vis-a-vis physics and a plethora of other knowledge that we know now. The kind of people we have working on the various space programmes around the world are not the conquering kind. They are geeks. Most astronauts are University Educated airmen and women, scientists etc.
> 
> I tend to side with those that think if somebody running around exploring space I doubt, that once they found a new place, they would then set about destroying it. Unless they are a species like those found on science fiction such as Independence Day or that terrible movie Skyline...



In current thinking and study, you are correct. Totally.  After all these years, being objective, I agree. The numbers speak for themselves.

Good post,

Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> I don't think the Christopher Columbus comparison is a good one. Back then, *even though he and his men were exploratory in nature, *they were still very ignorant vis-a-vis physics and a plethora of other knowledge that we know now. The kind of people we have working on the various space programmes around the world are not the conquering kind. They are geeks. Most astronauts are University Educated airmen and women, scientists etc.
> 
> I tend to side with those that think if somebody running around exploring space I doubt, that once they found a new place, they would then set about destroying it. Unless they are a species like those found on science fiction such as Independence Day or that terrible movie Skyline...



That's pretty funny.  Ya...they "explored" as many ways as they could think of to murder and torture almost ALL of the indigenous people.


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the Christopher Columbus comparison is a good one. Back then, *even though he and his men were exploratory in nature, *they were still very ignorant vis-a-vis physics and a plethora of other knowledge that we know now. The kind of people we have working on the various space programmes around the world are not the conquering kind. They are geeks. Most astronauts are University Educated airmen and women, scientists etc.
> ...


Columbus?
or do you mean those that came after him?


----------



## Dr Grump (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the Christopher Columbus comparison is a good one. Back then, *even though he and his men were exploratory in nature, *they were still very ignorant vis-a-vis physics and a plethora of other knowledge that we know now. The kind of people we have working on the various space programmes around the world are not the conquering kind. They are geeks. Most astronauts are University Educated airmen and women, scientists etc.
> ...



Well, the men who led those ventures were exploratory in nature.

I also don't like putting 21st century Western norms, morals, mores and truisms on 15th century Europe - in fact, any current norm that was eligible pre 1945....


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Bob,
> 
> Usually eternal optimists get on my nerves.  Strangely you do not evoke that in me.  If not for the outcome of a handful of battles in WWII this world would be an entirely different place.  In the entire history of the modern human race how could any outside observer look at us and determine we are a peaceful species.
> 
> ...




You are grossly mistaken, being fair. The answer to your own query is in your own post thus quoted here;

_ 24,000 in the USA alone last year._

Out of 310 million, incredible odds. That's a 99.868% success rate. Not bad.

Lets look at all the wars since 1919--WW1, WW2, all others. Deaths: 46 million. Population of planet: 7 billion. Staggering ratio. Higher than 99.5%

It has nothing to do with Gods, or positive thinking, or being wishful or hoping on a _star_. Its just hard, cold, demographic unmitigated fact. We are a planet that abides, still.

It then suggest that space faring civilizations has gotten past conquest and embrace discovery as I have mentioned repeatedly in this thread.

Look around you right now, in your place.  Any threats?  Are you full?  Are you warm/cool? Do you have lighting? Medicines?, --you obviously have a computer, etc etc. The point is its better for you, and me, than say, 11,000 years ago on this continent or in our time-place as of now.

Consider. 

Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> ...



I've tried to watch it several times but I have a problem with water creature sci fi.  

Has there ever been a sci fi movie made where we do not come out the winner?

That premise alone is ridiculous beyond the pale.  Stop and think about it.  "They" come a billion light years overcoming all kinds of grief and get stopped in their tracks by *us*?

Ya...right.  I would like to see the report they send back to HQ.  "UHHHhh.. ya....those humans...well ...they didn't act like Lucille Ball or the Three Stooges like we saw on their television broadcasts.."  HQ:  "Say what motherfucker?"  Aliens: "UHHHhh...ya they kicked our asses....UHHHhh.....HQ you are breaking up...  Alien makes garbled sound into the microphone.....".....


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 14, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...


uh, watch the movie
you clearly didnt get it
LOL


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Columbus.  for me, he never would have made it off the beach or the rest of the Catholic butchers.

Read the book 1491.  Columbus was proceeded by Mongols from China 8000 years before, into the Yucatan, Mayan world, trading with each other.

We use this tome in the field now, and it is incredible.

"1491" by Charles C. Mann







Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



I bet I tried to watch it at least half a dozen times over the years.  It just didn't hold my attention.

*That is most likely not going to happen.*  I get all my movies for free but my buddy has to take the time to download them.  Oldies are a lot harder to find.  Give me the Cliff Notes version if you don't mind... I would appreciate it.....I'll take your word for the interpretation.  It obviously made an impression on you...please share your thoughts on it.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> ...



I'm gonna consider that a non violent species is just that.  I doubt a truly evolved alien race would be able to justify even one murder.  I mean since we are giving them all this credit and everything.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> ...


Hey Bob, do you still "have the ability and software to resolve through HST a license plate number on a car at 100 miles from low earth orbit."?

Inquiring minds and all.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 14, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Sean


----------



## Dr Grump (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Has there ever been a sci fi movie made where we do not come out the winner?



Skyline..although it's a crap movie...


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> I'm gonna consider that a non violent species is just that.  I doubt a truly evolved alien race would be able to justify even one murder.  I mean since we are giving them all this credit and everything.



Actually, this is good debate. Oh, get out of north Seattle.  I wouldn't go in their even with a search warrant. Gig Harbor, yes, but the wet is just beyond coping. I no longer come back incountry through there. I come in down home into Cozumel, MX.

Look at the numbers I posted. Those are facts. That is what we go by. Fact, not conjecture or feelings. Just something to consider. The items you presented are valid, no argument, but that is not the whole nor is it the bases for fact.

Hope that is helpful. It has nothing to do with non-violent.  It has to do they are past conquest. That is the key. Put another way for point, we no longer hunt ants, hunker down and eat them. We stand back or kneel down and study them.  Why?  We are past killing ants.  We have _evolved_ past that. 

Just a thought.

Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Has there ever been a sci fi movie made where we do not come out the winner?
> ...



Come to think of it..."Android" was a win for the robots.  There was a Moon Mining movie where clones took home the bacon also.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> Hey Bob, do you still "have the ability and software to resolve through HST a license plate number on a car at 100 miles from low earth orbit."?
> 
> Inquiring minds and all.



Do you?

But, yes I can.

http://www.rocketroberts.com/astro/flag_on_moon.htm

Robert


----------



## Grace (Feb 15, 2011)

I just finished watching Firefly series on netflix. That hits closer to "possible" than anything else. After all...a utopian society of the haves and have nots, wars, drugs to make people mellow and turning in to warped crazies that eat other people. If any space stuff happens, I think that's about as close as it will get. And even then, other alien civilizations would still think our species not advanced enough and just watch us from afar all the planets we terra farmed and then commenced to war over...just like we do right here right now on earth.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...


we didnt exactly "win" in "the Abyss"
if it wasnt for the generally good nature of the aliens, we would have been toast


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Bob, do you still "have the ability and software to resolve through HST a license plate number on a car at 100 miles from low earth orbit."?
> ...


i think he's confusing the spy sats with HST


----------



## Foxfyre (Feb 15, 2011)

Interesting topic.  I tend to go with Carl Sagan's opinion that if there aren't other life forms out there, it would be a terrible waste of space.

As for why we haven't yet encountered other life forms, who is to say we have not?  Science has not come up with any explanation for thousands of UFO sightings, and there are a lot of people, not known to be lunatics, who claim to have encountered other beings.  If we are having visitations from other places, I have to believe they are mostly studying us and intend us no harm.  Since they would have the technology to get here, they would surely have the technology to destroy us if they chose to do that.

I have never seen a UFO, at least that I was aware of, nor have I encountered an E.T. of any sort that I was aware of.  But I like to keep an open mind about these things.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

The Abyss was truly wonderful and again, another slant on visitation by those that have gotten past conquest.

Robert


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> The Abyss was truly wonderful and again, another slant on visitation by those that have gotten past conquest.
> 
> Robert


yes, and they were prepared to destroy us because of how corrupt we were, but they saw the love of one man and explored it and found that in spite of the corruption there was good in human kind


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > I'm gonna consider that a non violent species is just that.  I doubt a truly evolved alien race would be able to justify even one murder.  I mean since we are giving them all this credit and everything.
> ...



What can I say?...I was a big fan of Bronson's "Death Wish" series...  

If not me...Who?

If not now..When?...

My friends count on me like that.

It's not a charity case..the owner is a multi-billionaire.  He does me favors all the time.

  

I haven't always had it tough....and this is totally do-able..I'm not chained to the place..and I have a very large Pitt Bull(going on 120lbs) to do the rounds.

My childhood home...the front ten acres of 150.

Orcas Island Vacation Rental, B&B Lodgings and Weddings

I fired off 10,000 rounds up there before I was eleven.  My first deer, a 10 point, was taken from three feet...age 12.  I'm no "Navy Seal" like some people will deny but I have my moments..

Don't worry about ol HUGGY...I get off on this shit.


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 15, 2011)

of course i got into the scuba tech in it and that kept me interested in the slow points
all the scuba gear was available tech with one exception
the mask/2nd stages
they had to create the mask so you could see faces
and that liquid breather was really cool


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > Mad Scientist said:
> ...



No.

It is so.

"What could Hubble see on Earth if it were to be aimed at the Earth?

Hubble is in orbit at a height of about 375 miles up. If we work the math, it can be shown that Hubble could just make out something that is 5.56 inches wide on Earth. Basically Hubble could just make out the size and shape of a car license plate (assuming it was laying flat on the ground). However, reading the numbers would be out of the question!"

Can you see the flag on the Moon with a telescope?

With software for resolution, yes, you can read a lic. plate. But that is not what Hubble is for.

Robert


----------



## Mad Scientist (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Bob, do you still "have the ability and software to resolve through HST a license plate number on a car at 100 miles from low earth orbit."?
> ...


You at a loss for words Bob? Why? *You* posted that on another board.

The Hubble Space Telescope:
A. Isn't pointed at the earth.
B, Has no mechanism or software for mapping the earth as it was never intended to do so.

If you know different, let us know. The link you gave us is all "what if" and purely conjecture.

Is there something you wanna' tell us Bob? Just remember, Tourettes Syndrome doesn't affect internet postings.


----------



## Grace (Feb 15, 2011)

.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> What can I say?...I was a big fan of Bronson's "Death Wish" series...
> 
> If not me...Who?
> 
> ...



Good response, A little off topic but my first deer was a little 4 point. I was about 11 or 12 and got it with my dad's 30-30. I loved growing up in Montana.  It was wonderful.

Robert


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Robert_Stephens said:
> ...


how familiar are you with the latest spy sats?
i read that they could pick out a foot print back in the 70's


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> You at a loss for words Bob? Why? *You* posted that on another board.
> 
> The Hubble Space Telescope:
> A. Isn't pointed at the earth.
> ...



Read the article.  Read it carefully. At JPL or HST, we can turn the HST to see down to earth and read down to 5.5". I answered you. Can you read? Are you at a loss for words, or just being an asshole.  Which?  Read it again and then read the specs for resolution on HST and view demands. 

HubbleSite - The Telescope - Hubble Essentials

Hope that is helpful.  But what about are we alone in the Universe. I think that is the topic of this thread I started.

Robert


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

DiveCon said:


> how familiar are you with the latest spy sats?
> I read that they could pick out a foot print back in the 70's



The Keyhole and a few others can resolute down to 3" from low earth orbit. But these vehicles are managed by the most secretive of our government agencies, the NRO:

The National Reconnaissance Office

National Reconnaissance Office - 50 Years of Vigilance From Above

They used to call themselves "The Keepers of the Night".  Now, due to PIROs flooding government oversight, they now have their own website, in public view. 

NASA has thrown up a few of their satellites for them, but they are DoD missions and kept quiet to everyone not involved. 

Robert


----------



## Care4all (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...



don't you need a moon as well, to agitate the pools of life?  And carbon, and amino acids?  

it is not water alone, no?


----------



## Mad Scientist (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > You at a loss for words Bob? Why? *You* posted that on another board.
> ...


Again, you post a link that doesn't back up your claims. Of all the cameras mentioned in the link, *none of them* are pointed at the Earth. And nowhere does it state that they can "turn HST and look at the Earth" as you claim.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

When I was really young..before we moved up to Orcas permanently we also had a house in Lake Forest Park ...a suburb North of Seattle.  

There was a NIKE missile base not too far from our home.  One day in early summer..I believe it was about 9 AM.., I think I was about 6 years old I was outside on the lawn and heard the sound of a couple of Sabre Jets up in the sky to the East.  My eyes caught a glimpse of something unusual a little to the North of vertical.  I looked up and did not see the fighters but what I did see was astonishing.  It was a disc shaped object ..bright metalic ...a silver color maybe 100-200 feet across at about a thousand feet.  It was not making any noise.  It was just climbing to the West at about 15 degrees at maybe 100 knots.  Then the two F86's came into view coming up from behind the UFO.  They were quite impressive making enormous racket and belching black smoke trails.  The UFO started picking up speed and within maybe 2 or 3 seconds was now going maybe 60 degrees vertical and rapidly accelerating to well over 1000 knots with the jets trying to chase it down.  The damned thing just kept going faster and faster and left the Air Force/Army planes in the dust.  The UFO was completely out of sight in a clear blue sky within 10-15 seconds.  The F86's tried to follow the UFO but they turned away while they were just specks in the sky and flew off to the East.  The whole incident as I witnessed it lasted just under a minute. 

The year was 1955.  June or July  Just North of Lake Washington...near Seattle

True story.

PS... The neighbor lady to our North and her husband the Whiteheads were also outside and saw the same thing.  A neighbor lady from across Ballenger Way ran over to Mrs Whitehead and they were hysterical about it.  Then they agreed that the military would handle it and there was no more talk about it.  Certainly not with a six year old boy.

No..  We are not alone.

Correction...The neighbors name wasn't Whitehead..It was Whiting.  I knew it was White ..something..but it has been almost 55 years.....


----------



## Mad Scientist (Feb 15, 2011)

Wow Bob, you never told us Astronaut Judith Resnik was your girlfriend. Tell us all about her. That is, if you're not still torn up by her loss.
Toms Astronomy Blog » Blog Archive » Challenger Not Forgotten After 25 Years


> Robert A.M. Stephens        on         January 29th, 2011
> 
> Whomever you are, Steve, thank you, thank you. I  was there that morning, watching my GF of one year, Astronaut Dr. Judith  Resnik (Judy to the rest of us) and the 6 other great folks and  friends, make her 2nd trip to space. I remember.  I remember. Thank  you!!!!! Always.
> Go For Throttle Up!!!!..
> ...


Or was that one of your bi-polar moments?


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Care4all said:


> don't you need a moon as well, to agitate the pools of life?  And carbon, and amino acids?
> 
> it is not water alone, no?



Elsewhere here in this thread, the conditions for life as we know it does not require a moon. It does require electrical (lightning), warmth, water, organic matter-compounds, O2, and the warmth to induce decay. But no moon--however, it was there when life began some 4.3 billion years ago.

Hope that is helpful dear.

Robert


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> Wow Bob, you never told us Astronaut Judith Resnik was your girlfriend. Tell us all about her. That is, if you're not still torn up by her loss.
> Toms Astronomy Blog » Blog Archive » Challenger Not Forgotten After 25 Years
> 
> 
> ...



Careful, whomever you are.  

Not sure what you are doing or why or your point. Yes, I was dating Dr. Judith Resnik at the time of STS-51L at Kennedy Space Center, FL. I had been working  for McDonnell Douglas Astronautics at the time in failure at NASA-KSC. 

What are doing and why?

That is the man that did this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZAntHBk6Gw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZAntHBk6Gw&feature=related[/ame]

And whom I have invited to be my guest at the last launch of STS, _Atlantis_. 

I posted at his YouTube profile and have posted about him here, called Fanfare For The Shuttle.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/154943-fanfare-to-the-space-shuttle.html

Careful, whatever your intent is.

Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Kenneth Arnold UFO sighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > Wow Bob, you never told us Astronaut Judith Resnik was your girlfriend. Tell us all about her. That is, if you're not still torn up by her loss.
> ...



No shortage of assholes on the internet.  It really makes me want to get off my butt and start that company I've been thinking about that traces all internet traffic back to it's original physical location just like the FBI does.  I would sell info confidentially to the highest bidder.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> Wow Bob, you never told us Astronaut Judith Resnik was your girlfriend. Tell us all about her. That is, if you're not still torn up by her loss.
> Toms Astronomy Blog » Blog Archive » Challenger Not Forgotten After 25 Years
> 
> 
> ...



What is your fucking problem Sparky?  This guy has been an interesting, helpful and patient gentleman and you come on board with steaming liquid shit like this?
Go Fuck yourself...somewhere else.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> When I was really young..before we moved up to Orcas permanently we also had a house in Lake Forest Park ...a suburb North of Seattle.
> 
> There was a NIKE missile base not too far from our home.  One day in early summer..I believe it was about 9 AM.., I think I was about 6 years old I was outside on the lawn and heard the sound of a couple of Sabre Jets up in the sky to the East.  My eyes caught a glimpse of something unusual a little to the North of vertical.  I looked up and did not see the fighters but what I did see was astonishing.  It was a disc shaped object ..bright metalic ...a silver color maybe 100-200 feet across at about a thousand feet.  It was not making any noise.  It was just climbing to the West at about 15 degrees at maybe 100 knots.  Then the two F86's came into view coming up from behind the UFO.  They were quite impressive making enormous racket and belching black smoke trails.  The UFO started picking up speed and within maybe 2 or 3 seconds was now going maybe 60 degrees vertical and rapidly accelerating to well over 1000 knots with the jets trying to chase it down.  The damned thing just kept going faster and faster and left the Air Force/Army planes in the dust.  The UFO was completely out of sight in a clear blue sky within 10-15 seconds.  The F86's tried to follow the UFO but they turned away while they were just specks in the sky and flew off to the East.  The whole incident as I witnessed it lasted just under a minute.
> 
> ...



Wow, this is akin to the great western UFO outbreak in the night in Dec, 1972. The one and only time I ever saw anything like this--me and a buddy of mine tuned into the KFRC 610, Rock, San Fran, heard all this reporting of UFOs all over the west and western CA. Then, lo, there it was. 

It was a cold clear night at about 7000' going down over the pass and it was a full moon and about 10 below zero. It was long narrow, oval shaped and huge and like your event, no noise. We watched it for nearly an hour, as it moved very slowly toward the south west. I never saw anything like that again. We both hit each other make sure we were seeing what we were seeing. The image stuck with me. Wild. I wish I knew more about this sort of thing, but I do not.

The vehicle was huge, about a half mile long and about 400 feet thick. Around its edge was a constant, unblinking soft blue lights like what is seen in ST-TNG Enterprise. 

Norad Fence picks up all sorts of things that defy description, but I do not know what to make of it.  I do know what I saw, like you did and that craft.

Did you or have you ever seen anything else? I have not for me.

Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > When I was really young..before we moved up to Orcas permanently we also had a house in Lake Forest Park ...a suburb North of Seattle.
> ...



Nope.  The thing I saw could have been bigger than my description because there was nothing to gauge it's size against.  I doubt it was anywhere nearly as big as what you saw though. 1/2 mile long is over 2,500 feet. That's pretty fucking huge.  It(The UFO I saw) seemed to be much larger than the fighters but they never got that close to it and it was going several times faster than they were by the time they got in the same part of the sky.  Mine was certainly less than 500 feet in diameter.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Ok, this post of yours is totally on topic and so, can I ask, when this was going and you were with the neighbors, and they were watching with you, did you mentally make note what you were seeing and understand it wasn't normal?  Did you follow up in the media at all?  I ask since that one and only time really stuck with me and and I wished somehow I could have documented it better. I was 20, and that is 38 years ago. We had no good night camera and I was in my new Jeep with my buddy. 

What was the neighbors response as well?

Was your impression that this is not something from here on terra firma?

Fascinating.

Robert


----------



## Mad Scientist (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Careful, whatever your intent is.


Just want to ask you a few questions RAMS, if I may?
This is your post here at USMB no?


Robert_Stephens said:


> 12 years ago I and Phil Platt were  frequent guest on his radio show. I caught Hoagy in several lies, Bell  cut me off, and that was the end of it. *Then, Bell sued me for $60  million dollars. I won. He left the country.*
> Bad deal  but fun. It is why if they are too far off like some here or  Tarrel or the like there is no point as they have something ajar  mentally. *But, this medium lets one be anything one wants to be.*


That's so true isn't it? For instance, I'm not really a Scientist! But it's a lot of fun to *pretend* ain't it? 


Years and Mileage Be Damned, Indy is Back - Page 2 - CHUD.com Community Community


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cow Puncher*
> _Are you the same Robert A.M. Stephens  (and I can't believe there are a lot of Robert A.M. Stephenses out  there) that claimed you had NASA info about aliens or some such thing?  And got sued by Art Bell?_
> 
> ...


So RAMS, were you lying *then* or are you lying *now*? 

I also have the recordings of the actual Art Bell show that you were on. You may want to think up a new story or just come clean about it all.

You know how we all hate it when people just come in here and spread their "steaming liquid shit".


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Nope.  The thing I saw could have been bigger than my description because there was nothing to gauge it's size against.  I doubt it was anywhere nearly as big as what you saw though. 1/2 mile long is over 2,500 feet. That's pretty fucking huge.  It(The UFO I saw) seemed to be much larger than the fighters but they never got that close to it and it was going several times faster than they were by the time they got in the same part of the sky.  Mine was certainly less than 500 feet in diameter.



Ok, good data, good additional details. On me and Randy's sighting we could gauge size and kept saying how gigantic huge it was.  We could gauge size as the pass was deep and it was below the ridge line across from us. I knew the trees there were Ponderosa Pines at about 200+ feet high there with Red fir, slightly smaller.  It was about 1/2 mile distant so it filled up our view. No noise, repeating, but we could feel it. I do not know how to describe this, but we could actually feel its presence--I think due to its mass. Wild.

The Sacramento Bee reported the same craft the next day, apparently what we saw. It reported it was also huge and quiet.

This is so damn vexing to not know. But yes, it did influence me about us not being alone.

Robert


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > Careful, whatever your intent is.
> ...



I am not sure where you are getting all this or why and why you are trying to do this stuff. Bell tried. It did not fair good for him. I have been on his show 4 times. Also on Rense, Sightings, Earth Changes, all on the same topics of the woo woo crowd, like the Terral, others yourself and so on.  Those events were 12 years ago nearly.  Not sure your reason or why you are doing this.

Same ol, same ol.  One answers but they never respond to one's answers back--same pattern. One of the things that got Bell, among several, was defamation.  After a year of battling, he left the US.  

I have never been a "Scientist" or claimed such. I have never been civil service for NASA and never claimed such. I am a failure engineer and archaeologist and contract for the space agency. I have never been to art school and am self taught and that is how I got my paintings, by selection in the NASA Art Collection.

I do not lie. 

I'll handle this  differently with you I think.

Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Ok, this post of yours is totally on topic and so, can I ask, when this was going and you were with the neighbors, and they were watching with you, did you mentally make note what you were seeing and understand it wasn't normal?  Did you follow up in the media at all?  I ask since that one and only time really stuck with me and and I wished somehow I could have documented it better. I was 20, and that is 38 years ago. We had no good night camera and I was in my new Jeep with my buddy.
> 
> What was the neighbors response as well?
> 
> ...



I was alone in my front yard.  I had just been sent outside to mow the grass which I was not too pleased about because I was small at 6 and the reel mower was next to impossible for me to push.  The Whitings were outside also working on their yard.  They were an older couple with an only son named Richard that was about twenty.  Their yard was elevated higher than ours by maybe 6-8 feet and there was a small hedge bordering their front yard.  Their driveway lay just the other side of a rockery that supported it and was the edge of their property and ours.  Bottom line I was a witness to them more than they to me.  I was standing much lower than they were.  They never talked to me..ever.  Dick did once in a while.  I just remember Mrs. Whiting with her hand up over her brow like she was shading her eyes from the sun except the sun was not directly overhead ...it was behind us slightly as we were all looking somewhat North.  She was definitely looking up as was I.  The thing was very bright and the sunlight was reflecting off of it.  The shape of it was sort of roundish and blunt on the edge and it got thicker towards the center but there was no dome in the center that was noticeable.  If it was 200 feet in diameter it was maybe 40 feet thick in the center.  There were no lights I could see on it.  I could not tell if it was spinning but it did not appear to be.  When it accelerated it did not change attitude but kept relatively horizontal to the ground.  It did not go straight up.. it did sort of a half a spiral as it climbed.  Like a rising 180 degree turn if I could compare it to an airplanes flight.


----------



## Rat in the Hat (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



This is a good example. Aliens travel hundreds of light years and we put them in camps, shoot them, and feed them cat food.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

wow, great detail and thank you and hope others read this  accounting of your also and comment. Very good. In this do you or did you feel threatened and did it register with you later in life?

(On a different note, I have these messages in my message box here from Mad Scientist but they have a stamp on them that says "moderated"  Why is this?)

This report of yours is excellent. So, you do think we are not alone?

Robert


----------



## Rat in the Hat (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> wow, great detail and thank you and hope others read this  accounting of your also and comment. Very good. In this do you or did you feel threatened and did it register with you later in life?
> 
> (On a different note, I have these messages in my message box here from Mad Scientist but they have a stamp on them that says "moderated"  Why is this?)
> 
> ...



Good morning, Robert.

The moderated stamp means you have looked at your messages, and you have the choice of leaving them alone, or deleting them if you wish.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> I also have the recordings of the actual Art Bell show that you were on. You may want to think up a new story or just come clean about it all.
> 
> You know how we all hate it when people just come in here and spread their "steaming liquid shit".



What about this, honey?:

[CTRL] $60 Mil Lawsuit Filed By Art Bell against David Oates &

How come you didn't use that link too, for the details and such, right from the source, your hero, Art Bell and the Woo Woos?  Interesting.

And what about this? ( I love all these cowards in the woo woo crowd)

Spat With Talk Show Host - $60 Million Lawsuit

And all about Art Bell being arrested.  I just love this.

Robert


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

uh....Its only a movie, only a movie, only a movie.........RE:  _District 9._...

Robert


----------



## Mad Scientist (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> uh....Its only a movie, only a movie, only a movie.........RE:  _District 9._...Robert


Speaking of "woo-woos" check out *this* guy:
Alien Abduction Experience and Research (AAER) at www.abduct.com


> *Gersten:* Just a few questions if you don't mind. You stated in a prior e-mail that 'over 40 years there has been documented over 1.3 million implants worldwide of unknown construct.' From where is this information obtained?
> *Stephens:* This information was obtained by medical, science, universities, military, other academia, world wide--all nations, over 40 years or longer, *since the first non-Earth implant was discovered in a patient's forearm*, a young woman, 17, in Chunking, China in July of 1937.


Apparently, some "woo-woo" thinks aliens are giving select human beings "implants", and I'm not talking the boobie kind! 

And looks like the aliens are flying around in a large triangular spacecraft? The plot thickens!


> *Gersten: * You state that 'on 12-4-1998, Fence picked up a 'Gray' (unknown  intruder) over the Shander Sugar plantation in western Cuba for 1 hour,  witnessed by dozens, and then the intruder fled.' What was the craft?
> *Stephens:*  A large triangular craft, silver-dark gray in color, no markings,  approximately 200 meters on a side, shaped as a true equilateral  triangle, silent in operation, stationary in repose, and of unknown  origin. Intruder Fence number #119,266. 12-4-1998, sighted and logged @  1721 hours EST.
> 
> Robert A.M. Stephens, Contractor
> ...


OMG, Bob this is you? More laughs at link!


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> wow, great detail and thank you and hope others read this  accounting of your also and comment. Very good. In this do you or did you feel threatened and did it register with you later in life?
> 
> (On a different note, I have these messages in my message box here from Mad Scientist but they have a stamp on them that says "moderated"  Why is this?)
> 
> ...



UHHHhmmm..  I'm not sure what I am reading there Bob in the next to the last reply but it is against the rules to display the contents of a PM on the regular board.  If that is what this is delete it ASAP.  It's a ban-able offense...unless you get express permission from the other party.

Sean

No...I did not feel threatened exactly. I was more in awe of what I was watching than frightened.   I felt that the object was not from here but it seemed reassuring that the fighters chased it off.  Pretty naive ...even for a kid.  

Well ...I don't know about every day since then but THAT day...we were not alone.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Rat in the Hat said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > wow, great detail and thank you and hope others read this  accounting of your also and comment. Very good. In this do you or did you feel threatened and did it register with you later in life?
> ...



Thank you.  Still learning all the tools here and my way around. Love it.  Great interaction with so many. Only a few woo woos. I think the conservative nature of this place with some reason helps.

Thank you.

Robert


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > wow, great detail and thank you and hope others read this  accounting of your also and comment. Very good. In this do you or did you feel threatened and did it register with you later in life?
> ...



Wow, what a report. I am impressed and you remembered so well. So many do not. About the messages. The mods have been helping on matters which is most kind. Understand better now.

On topic, I am working late and have been the last few nights on doing this digital image of The Great Attractor and its vexing but good. The images from out there from HST are incredible.

The idea of we are not alone is sure vexing in all this.






Robert


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Robert_Stephens said:
> ...



Which reminds me to take some glass cleaner down to my El Dorado this morning.  The Pitt Bull has left a similar set of nose prints on the windshield and the passenger window.

Sean


----------



## American Horse (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> > <SNIP>
> ...



Thank you, but I can't completely go along with your answer.  I don't mean to quibble but the data applied to the &#8220;Drake Formula&#8221; is arbitrary.  When I enter my own calculations into Drake, mine look like this:

* = the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy: 100 billion 
(accounting for [5] above, this is a reasonable ball-park number)

FP = fraction of stars with planets around them: 50% 
(depending on the odds of existing VS. not existing about half seems a reasonable number; expressing a fifty-fifty chance)

NE = number of planets per star ecologically able to sustain life: 0.5% 
(sustaining life is the rub; even in our relatively safe region of space, the continuity of life [4] once started has been fraught with risk and could be terminated unexpectedly at any time)

F1 = fraction of those planets where life actually evolves: 70% 
(assuming with enough time life beginning is inevitable and ubiquitous a high factor seems reasonable) 

FI = the fraction of F1 that evolves intelligent life: 0.5% (If by intelligent we mean intelligence which survives long enough, enduring all the vicissitudes of severe climate change (a given) from all the many ways that can come about then 1/10th of fifty-fifty seems to be reasonable) Without a large moon to stabilize axis tilt [1][2] climate will be chaotic. A satellite of comparable size seems to be the most delimiting factor of all)

FC = the fraction of FI that communicates: 5% 
(suggests a clear view of the heavens and an intention to communicate to hypothetical creatures beyond their own solar system in spite of the economic costs and political impingements) conditions on the planet can inhibit any interest in worlds beyond their own; [3] above.  Life developing under-water - or under a thick atmosphere - regardless of a high intelligence, will lack incentive to communicate with creatures beyond their own world since they will lack awareness.)

FL = the fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations survives: 1/1,000,000th (10,000 years) (default number seems reasonable)

N = the number of communicating civilizations in the galaxy = 44 (43.75) civilizations

With such a small number of communicative civilizations existing and overlapping at any moment in time, we well might never find each other short of some faster than light travel. So in your final comment in bold, we definitely agree.

/SS/ American Horse - A.A. (Amateur Astronomer/60 years and counting)


----------



## Foxfyre (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > I also have the recordings of the actual Art Bell show that you were on. You may want to think up a new story or just come clean about it all.
> ...



From what I've read, the lawsuit Bell filed against Stephens was settled in 2000, and Stephens came out on the short end.  Bell was not only exhonerated of all allegations but he continued to host Coast to Coast part time up until his full retirement I think in 2007.  He has a severe medical condition and I think it was just too tough for him to continue.

Whatever you think of Art Bell, back when I was working into the wee hours of the morning night after night, his eclectic late night radio program of the wierd, the unbelievable, the bizarre, the strange kept me entertained and amused.  There was no other program like it on the air.  He of course is convinced we have had visitations from other worlds as is his replacement host, George Noury, on that program.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Foxfyre said:


> Robert_Stephens said:
> 
> 
> > Mad Scientist said:
> ...



I have spent a few minutes searching the web for the actual slander Stevens among others is accused of perpetrating and all I can find is :

"The lawsuit describes a "conspiracy to slander" Art Bell, which includes malicious public allegations that Oates and Stevens have made. Basically, the complaint says they went on some radio shows and said that Art is

    * a child molester,
    * a trafficker in various aspects of pornography,
    * has been mixed up with the militia movement,
    * and travels to Thailand to have sex with little boys.

As well as several other nasty things."

It looks to me like Bell is publicizing his own slander evidence FAR more than anything being pushed by Stevens.  In fact I could find no source that quotes Stevens issuing said slander.  

I don't know Bell but it looks like if he kept his yap shut about these allegations NO ONE would have ever heard of it.  It appears he is slandering himself.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

American Horse said:


> Thank you, but I can't completely go along with your answer.  I don't mean to quibble but the data applied to the Drake Formula is arbitrary.  When I enter my own calculations into Drake, mine look like this:
> 
> * = the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy: 100 billion
> (accounting for [5] above, this is a reasonable ball-park number)
> ...



This is great you crunched it and explored on your own. I have no rebuttal on this as it may well be that your numbers are more fitting than Drake's 10,000 number. For me I favor the latter. In your case, and your reasons, these too are sound and quite plausible as well for the reasons you state.

Sometimes in hypothetical postulates, it is better to reduce everything to a common denominator of what is:  By that, we can say with certainty that life developed here. Then, from there, go out and take what we know with certainty and say it could, then, develop there at star system X and its planets. 

The 10,000 possibles is based on all criteria of available data that is certain and why I think exo-solar life is probably abundant. 

Good job.  I hope others will take your lead, and will crunch there own numbers and do what you have done and see what they come up with. Its all good and valid.

Thank you for your work on your assessment,

...._more anyone?_

Robert


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Robert_Stephens said:
> ...



You are correct. He lost.  I know, I was there.

Robert


----------



## Sheldon (Feb 15, 2011)

Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 15, 2011)

Sheldon said:


> Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlikCebQSlY



Sagan's view is EXTREMELY pessimistic and clouded by his angst over nuclear self annihilation.  

I submit that the life on earth is very unique in one way and that is the nature of our separation of the continents which has EVERYTHING to do with our civilizations competing and warring.  On a planet with one major continent which earth was at one time it is more likely that the civilization than evolves into high tech would not be at war with anyone on the same planet.  It is also very likely that an atomic bomb would never get invented because there would be no use for it.

Lastly one must keep in mind that his number crunch only entails the Milky Way....not the entire universe.

If his fears are adjusted for my factors there would be many millions of civilizations just in the Milky Way and trillions throughout the universe.


----------



## syrenn (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...



In a universe with as many galaxies there are (that we can see) it would be arrogant to think or beleive "we are the only ones"


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

Sheldon said:


> Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlikCebQSlY



I just love this--always have.  Thank you for posting this for a reminder. And here is my all time favorite Carl Sagan inspiration, his words, "The Pale Blue Dot".  I always kick back and take a moment to re-read this brilliant dissertation. The image and story of......._us_......

The Pale Blue Dot







Look again at that dot. Thats here. Thats home. Thats us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there  on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home weve ever known.--_Carl Sagan_

Enjoy everyone.

Robert


----------



## Toro (Feb 15, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > I also have the recordings of the actual Art Bell show that you were on. You may want to think up a new story or just come clean about it all.
> ...





> Stephens said his main motive in entering the UFO discussions
> was to defend NASA against outlandish charges - for example that
> the agency was part of a government conspiracy to keep the
> existence of space aliens secret from the American public.





Explains a lot.

You over at JREF?


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 15, 2011)

That reasoning by me as to why I took on Bell and so on, was just that.  Still holds. The woo woos here are the same and they never waiver in their protocol:  They defame, discredit, assail, attack, then, when you address each post-item a in pragmatic fashion, they never acknowledge your response, just move onto the next flame.

Exactly as _Mad Scientist_ is doing to me here on this forum without provocation. Its a form of anonymous cowardliness and bullying this medium allows anyone to do. 

Same motive, same style, same emptiness. Shame its not in _person_..........

Thanks for posting that above for me.

Robert


----------



## Montrovant (Feb 15, 2011)

If this has already been brought up, I apologize, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread tonight.

These questions of life, and intelligent life, other than our own in the universe usually center on life as we currently know it.  There's also the possibility to consider that life or intelligence might occur in some completely different form than ours.  Perhaps the things we think are needed are not; perhaps some kind of life might form without water, or without 'breathable' atmosphere, etc.  We have such a limited perspective, having only seen an incredibly small portion of the universe and over such a small amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of life arose totally outside our expectations.

Also, even if there is intelligent life, and it were within the range of how far radio waves will have traveled from Earth, it's possible that the life forms would not realize they originated from an intelligent source even if they saw them.  Perhaps they have adapted entirely different forms of communication and the idea of using radio waves to broadcast signals never occurred to them; by the same token, it may be possible that we've received signals of some sort from another intelligent life form without realizing that is what they were.

I am a sci-fi fan, and would dearly love for humanity to encounter another intelligent life form in my lifetime, but the distances and time periods involved make me very skeptical that we will.  I consider it very likely that there is/has been/will be other intelligent life in the universe, just not that we will interact with them.

Oh, and I love the early Star Trek references   I feel the need to say that I was not a big fan of First Contact (or any of TNG movies), I thought the better movies based on the original series were far superior.  I attribute that to the time between; TNG movies seemed too much like long episodes.


----------



## Robert_Stephens (Feb 16, 2011)

Montrovant said:


> If this has already been brought up, I apologize, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread tonight.
> 
> These questions of life, and intelligent life, other than our own in the universe usually center on life as we currently know it.  There's also the possibility to consider that life or intelligence might occur in some completely different form than ours.  Perhaps the things we think are needed are not; perhaps some kind of life might form without water, or without 'breathable' atmosphere, etc.  We have such a limited perspective, having only seen an incredibly small portion of the universe and over such a small amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of life arose totally outside our expectations.
> 
> ...



The issue of how or what life is or might be other there or not is very SF and is ok. The search for exo-solar life based on the Drake Formula holds in that that is what we know here. It is not to exclude possibility, but to embrace what is known.

Carbon-water-O2-salt based life forms is what we know, so that is what we are going to search for. If we find something else, wonderful.

Alot of your data in your post is covered by me and others through thread, so you will have to bone up when you can and go back through. Lots of good data and a fair quick read also.

Hope that is helpful.

Robert


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Feb 20, 2011)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > You at a loss for words Bob? Why? *You* posted that on another board.
> ...


We ?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Feb 20, 2011)

You aint a rocket scientist nor an astrophysicist .

Site Contents: About the Artist

Robert A.M. Stephens is a professional artist, painting full time since May of 1977. Winning an art scholarship at age 14 sent him to the University California at Davis.There he was told he would never be an artist since he preferred to paint realistically. He agreed with their dissent since he hated the abstract, subjective creations popular during that period of the mid 60's, thus surrendering the scholarship. From that point he was determined to become a professional artist and decided to teach himself somehow. It took him 11 more years before he could launch his career as an easel painter and fine artist in plein-aire works professionally.

A 5 time Smithsonian (SITES) alumni in conjunction with NASA, and with work in collections, museums, and academies worldwide, he has proved UCD's art department they may have been a little hasty.

The image archive at this site is a collection both digital and oil on canvas/panel, that have been executed and sold or is for sale in current inventory as indicated in each image page. The artist is currently represented by the Hanson Trust, Inc., Gig Harbor, WA, USA. The Agent Provocateur can be reached at: Percheron74@comcast.net or,

The Art Of Robert A.M. Stephens-Behold The Heart
The Art Of Robert A.M. Stephens-Behold The Heart
Internet Archive Wayback Machine

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3342869-post93.html

Yikes indeed.


----------



## JackDan (Apr 11, 2011)

The memo that 'proves aliens landed at Roswell'... released online by the FBI | Mail Online


----------



## JackDan (Apr 11, 2011)

^ could be a hoax, but just thought it was worth this threads time.


----------



## Abishai100 (Aug 7, 2014)

If we look at the 4th and 5th terms of the equation, we are compounding probabilities of finding life and then intelligent life on a given planet.

Evaluating the chances of intelligent life then could be a mathematical computation of analogical reasoning.

That is, we seem to be taking values regarding intelligent life assessed on Earth and then transferring that reference frame to the analysis of billiards-like analogies elsewhere in the universe.

I'm not a math pro, but the gist is that it seems that the Drake Equation implies that human perception is very relevant in this analysis even if it is theoretically limited.

Why do crypto-scientists believe that the Bermuda Triangle is a region in Earth's waters where possible electromagnetic distortions/disturbances/vortexes are creating imperceptible disappearances of vessels crossing that area?

Could analysis of enigmas right here on Earth serve as investigative inspiration for enigmas elsewhere in the universe?

After all, why do American children and adults alike enjoy reading about bizarre fantasy-adventure comic book avatars such as Scarecrow (a masked maniac who wields devastating fear toxins against civilization)?  Why do such people feel that antisocialism 'enigmas' are equivalent to creative thinking on Earth?

Perhaps that old adage applies here in some way: Be careful what you wish for.

Put in another way --- if we are so curious about the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, is it possible that such curiosity is a consciousness sign of the 'tangibility of creative thinking?'

What if aliens do not want to be found?


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Aug 7, 2014)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...



Actually, our star Sol is a G2 V-type star. Maybe that's called C on some other categorization, but US astronomers call it G2 V spectral type and luminosity class.

Your whole premise is based on conjecture and unconfirmed speculation. Over 30 years and that's your case? Don't give up your day job.

What you fail to take into account with the Star Trek references is everything that happened in Star Trek took place after World War 3. It's not until faced with extinction that the human race got its act together. And billions died first.

A more elegant arguement for alien life is this: we exist. And since nothing else in the universe so far discovered is unique, it's probable other planets have myriad forms of life too.


----------



## HUGGY (Aug 7, 2014)

Abishai100 said:


> If we look at the 4th and 5th terms of the equation, we are compounding probabilities of finding life and then intelligent life on a given planet.
> 
> Evaluating the chances of intelligent life then could be a mathematical computation of analogical reasoning.
> 
> ...



Then they are smarter than we are.

If ANYTHING is obvious about life here on Earth it is that most if not all evolved life is predatory.

Everything eats or is a parasite to something else.

The notion that there is some form of benevolent life form looking to improve our existance is rediculous beyond any reason.

The dumbest thing we ever did as a society was to send that probe out into space advertising who and what we are and where to find us.

The people that sponsored that project need to be lined up against a wall and be publicly  shot as a warning to anyone stupid enough to even think about repeating such a dangerous experiment. 

Sometimes scientists are as dumb as christians.


----------



## Skylar (Aug 7, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Sheldon said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if someone already posted this, but Carl Sagan, who is too awesome for words, does a pretty good job explaining the problem with the Drake Equation.
> ...



I don't think that works. As it wasn't a clash of civilizations between continents that drove technology. But clashes within them. 

The Spanish didn't develop steel so they could conquer the Maya and Aztec peoples. They had already long since refined that technology from other Europeans in their conflicts. The British didn't invent gunpowder or the Martini-Henry Rifles in order to defeat the Zulu in Africa. They had long since adopted or invented the technology before such conflicts even began. The Americans didn't develop the cannon or the tall ship so that Admiral Perry could end the Edo Period in shogunate Japan. They already had the technology. 

And the conflicts were rarely symmetrical. There was usually a massive technological advantage to one side. New technologies from the advanced side of the conflict didn't really need to be developed, as they already had such an overwhelming advantage. Its only when facing folks that already have comperable technology that you need to improve your technology to gain an appreciable advantage. Look at the advances made during the relatively short years of WW2 alone. So I don't believe it was the continental separations that allowed technology to flourish. Or even caused it to do so. But instead, intra-landmass conflicts that did.

But we do agree on one point: conflicts were a major force for technological innovation. 



> Lastly one must keep in mind that his number crunch only entails the Milky Way....not the entire universe.
> 
> If his fears are adjusted for my factors there would be many millions of civilizations just in the Milky Way and trillions throughout the universe.



We're finding *way* more near earth sized rocky planets near the 'goldilocks' zone than we ever thought existed. The odds that in the entire universe we're the only example of complex life is ludicrously unlikely. 

But distance is a bitch. And the vast distances are probably what keep these lifeforms from contacting each other.


----------



## sealybobo (Jan 26, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> If this has already been brought up, I apologize, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread tonight.
> 
> These questions of life, and intelligent life, other than our own in the universe usually center on life as we currently know it.  There's also the possibility to consider that life or intelligence might occur in some completely different form than ours.  Perhaps the things we think are needed are not; perhaps some kind of life might form without water, or without 'breathable' atmosphere, etc.  We have such a limited perspective, having only seen an incredibly small portion of the universe and over such a small amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of life arose totally outside our expectations.
> 
> ...


7 years later and nothing has changed. No closer to finding life. I believe it exists but our ability to see that far is limited


----------



## deanrd (Jan 26, 2018)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...


I thought you were being serious.  Then it turns out you don't know much.

Red Dwarfs: The Most Common and Longest-Lived Stars

Sure, the star counts, but it's as much about the distance from the star and the consistency in the rotation.

Try to figure out why.  If you can't figure it out, say so and I will explain it.


----------



## mhansen2 (Jan 26, 2018)

I sure hope not.  To think that Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump are the most important beings in the universe is beyond depressing.


----------



## deanrd (Jan 26, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > If this has already been brought up, I apologize, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread tonight.
> ...


 Or not.  Remember, the Universe is 13 billion years old.  We know that for a fact looking at the speed of the expansion of the Universe.

So how long will a civilization last?  There could have even been one on Venus.  It's the same size as the earth and made out of the same material and millions and millions of years ago, when the sun was younger and cooler, it was probably very much like earth is now. 

In cosmic terms, it won't be long before the earth becomes too hot to support life.  Then it will turn into another Venus.  It's unavoidable.

There could be civilizations all around us that we "just missed" by a million years.

The really  big odds are two civilizations both developing close enough, and having technology at the same time.

Do you understand what I'm saying?


----------



## deanrd (Jan 26, 2018)

mhansen2 said:


> I sure hope not.  To think that Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump are the most important beings in the universe is beyond depressing.


They are.  In their own minds, there is no doubt.

Trump has the greatest memory ever.

He's like really, really smart.  A genius.

He know's words.  Lots of words.

Only Trump can fix problems.

And his base knows he's completely honest and never lies.


----------



## Montrovant (Jan 26, 2018)

deanrd said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...



I don't know if calling the 13 billion year age of the universe a fact is accurate; for one thing, the estimates are actually closer to 14 billion years old, for another, given the limits of our knowledge and ability to "see" the universe, there could well be data which would change that estimate.  Based on what we have observed, 11 billion years is apparently the youngest the universe can be.  How Old is the Universe?

I think people often forget just how vast both the time and distance involved in these sorts of discussions is.  There is so much universe, and it has been around for so long, that everything humanity has directly observed is a figurative drop in the ocean.  There could be numerous examples of intelligent life throughout the universe right now, and we would have no idea.  There may have been many intelligent life forms before humanity arose, and we would have no idea.  Humanity is the tiniest speck within the area and the history of the universe.


----------



## westwall (Jan 26, 2018)

deanrd said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...









No, we don't.  It is a estimate that leaves a lot to be desired.  The more we look at the Universe, the older it seems to be.  Current estimates are 13.8 billion years old based on the life cycles of stars, and the speed of expansion.  The problem with the second variable is it is variable  The speed of expansion seems to change depending on where you look.  It isn't a constant.

My personal belief is the Universe is much older than it is thought be.  I base this on the amount of metals in our solar system.  Based on current theory I don't think 14 billion years is a long enough time for the stellar enrichment to have occurred.  I also don't think that the estimates for the expansion of the Universe are accurate save in a very general way.  The theory of the Big Bang I fundamentally agree with, but the mechanism afterwards is not well thought out.  Galaxies colliding with one another is a significant problem IMO.  We know they do, but no explosion I have ever seen would allow them to occur.


----------



## deanrd (Jan 26, 2018)

13 or 14 billion years.  Who cares?

If you can tell the direction of the stars, which you can.  And the speed of the stars, which you can. 



One thing all explosions have in common.  At the beginning of the explosion, the speed of the particles is increasing.  We know from the light shift of the stars the speed.  As the telescope looks farther and father away, the color shifts.  From that we can figure out the speed and the direction.

So we have speed.  We have direction.  And from that, we know the galaxies are moving apart and still speeding up.  So we know the explosion was so great, we are still in the early stages meaning it was a really big explosion.

Once all that information and data is collected, we can figure out how long it took to get here.  

And with the next generation of telescopes, there isn't an overall new theory of the movement of the universe, there is verification.


So if you are really interested, there is much more information available.  Your current source is seriously out of date or comes from one of those idiot creationists.


----------



## Moonglow (Jan 26, 2018)

This necrothread is like a banned hall of fame.....
Alone in the Universe, well there is God, Jesus,Mithra, Zeus, Ra, well you know, those guys.

But humanoid life? That would be iffy..at best...


----------



## westwall (Jan 27, 2018)

deanrd said:


> 13 or 14 billion years.  Who cares?
> 
> If you can tell the direction of the stars, which you can.  And the speed of the stars, which you can.
> 
> ...







I've been studying it for fun for longer than you've been alive and had the great fortune to speak with people far, far smarter than I, Feynman and I talked about cosmology on many an occasion.  Picture an explosion, now picture it many many days after it has occurred, now try and figure out how one dirt clod, can crash into another dirt clod, at right angles.


----------



## sealybobo (Jan 27, 2018)

deanrd said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...


100% agree. 

And aren’t all the galaxies getting farther and farther away? So 7 years later we’re actually farther from finding life than we were then.

I also heard most solar systems have two stars and life can’t take hold until one of those stars eats the other one

Also it’s rare that we have a big moon that is attached to our planet.

I totally get why people say must be god but that answers nothing. As thinking intelligent creatures we should want to live until the last star burns out. We should live in the black universe consisting of all black holes. The only light coming from our spaceship. Then when the last black star explodes we can see what happens next. Maybe then we learn what was before the Big bang


----------



## sealybobo (Jan 27, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


When I see the size of earth compared to our sun. Then I see how small our sun is compared to larger stars.  And when I realize how far the nearest star is for us micro organisms. It would take our tiny spaceship 80,000 years.  Then I realize we are micro organisms. Tiny


----------



## sealybobo (Jan 27, 2018)

Do you guys know what tardigrades are? I would love to find a planet where the humans are huge and wouldnt even notice us. We could take as much of their natural resources and they wouldn’t even mind. We would have armor and weapons so we couldn’t be eaten by some little creature on this planet. Kevlar and titanium


----------



## sealybobo (Jan 27, 2018)

Moonglow said:


> This necrothread is like a banned hall of fame.....
> Alone in the Universe, well there is God, Jesus,Mithra, Zeus, Ra, well you know, those guys.
> 
> But humanoid life? That would be iffy..at best...


I know a lot has to happen for humanoid life to happen but the odds say there are anywhere from zero-thousands of other humanoids out there. I refuse to believe it’s only one. Maybe not thousands but probably not zero


----------



## sealybobo (Jan 27, 2018)

westwall said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > 13 or 14 billion years.  Who cares?
> ...


There must be a massive growing black hole in the center of that cluster of galaxies


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## The Sage of Main Street (Jan 27, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> deanrd said:
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> 
> > sealybobo said:
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## tycho1572 (Jan 27, 2018)

Knowing what I know, I can’t see how anyone could think earth is the only planet with intelligent life.


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## Montrovant (Jan 27, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
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> > deanrd said:
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You seem to have gotten a mixup in the quotes, your post is listed as a quote from me.


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## task0778 (Jan 27, 2018)

tycho1572 said:


> Knowing what I know, I can’t see how anyone could think earth is the only planet with intelligent life.





Montrovant said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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True, IMHO anyway.   I also think there is a possibility of more than one universe in existence, but that's a bit off topic.   

Right now the prevailing theory is that the universe is expanding and will keep expanding until everything pretty much goes to hell.   Figuratively speaking.   But I also wonder if eventually there will be some unknown force that stops the expansion and draws the universe back into that single dot that explodes all over again.   Not talking God here, although that isn't out of the question either.   

As for life elsewhere in this universe, I'd put my money on life all over the place and some of those places could very well evolve into intelligent life.   My guess there have been intelligent species that evolved, prospered, and died out before our solar system was born.   Might not have been humanoid either.


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## sealybobo (Jan 27, 2018)

task0778 said:


> tycho1572 said:
> 
> 
> > Knowing what I know, I can’t see how anyone could think earth is the only planet with intelligent life.
> ...


Eventually every star will die and turn into black holes and eventually those black holes will die. The universe will be completely dark. The time between that and the next Big Bang might be quadrillion years later.


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## Death Angel (Jan 27, 2018)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...


No. We are not alone. God and His angels pay quite a bit of attention to this world.

God's fallen angels live among us and often reveal themselves.


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## Montrovant (Jan 27, 2018)

task0778 said:


> tycho1572 said:
> 
> 
> > Knowing what I know, I can’t see how anyone could think earth is the only planet with intelligent life.
> ...



I think the idea of a Big Bang and Big Crunch has fallen out of favor, but I'm not certain why.  I don't keep up with cosmological theories.


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## Death Angel (Jan 28, 2018)

tycho1572 said:


> Knowing what I know, I can’t see how anyone could think earth is the only planet with intelligent life.


What do "know"? 

For all you "know" the universe we inhabit could easily be a video game where God exists outside our universe and its laws.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Jan 29, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> task0778 said:
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*Cretins With Credentials*

The situation just before the Big Bang is an impossible concentration of matter.  Physicists are goofy fad-following nerds; their theories shouldn't be taken so seriously.


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## tycho1572 (Jan 29, 2018)

Death Angel said:


> tycho1572 said:
> 
> 
> > Knowing what I know, I can’t see how anyone could think earth is the only planet with intelligent life.
> ...


I ‘know’ it’s silly to think our star is the only one, of trillions, that could have a planet with intelligent life.


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## Death Angel (Jan 29, 2018)

tycho1572 said:


> I ‘know’ it’s silly to think our star is the only one, of trillions, that could have a planet with intelligent life.


And yet we looked and looked and NOTHING.  You assume evolution is true. Because you believe that process took place here, it must be taking place elsewhere.

What if your entire foundation is flawed?


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## sealybobo (Jan 29, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > task0778 said:
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Impossible?  I thought through god all things are possible?  Do you know what black holes are?  Why would you say something you have no idea about is impossible?  Is that what you believe or what you hope?  

I watch the science shows all the time.  Science is not married to the big bang.  Right now we aren't sure if the expansion will go on forever or if it will eventually start to contract.

What we do know is there was a big bang and that is where and when our current universe was started. The expansion is also picking up speed currently.      

There may have been a universe here before ours was born.  It was born, lived and died long before ours was born.  

And eventually every star in our universe will die out.  When it's all said and done, what was the purpose?


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## sealybobo (Jan 29, 2018)

Death Angel said:


> tycho1572 said:
> 
> 
> > I ‘know’ it’s silly to think our star is the only one, of trillions, that could have a planet with intelligent life.
> ...


What if yours is?  

We are ok with our "entire foundation" being flawed.  It's just science for gosh sakes.  We think we know but if tomorrow we find out we were wrong, we won't hide that from the masses.  

We won't do what you did.  We won't insist the big bang is real even though we know it's not which is what you guys did when you realized the earth was not the center of the universe.  The earth was not stationary with everything else flying around us.  Did you theists freak out when your entire foundation was flawed?  

God made the earth in 6 days?  More like 6 million years.  What did you do when you found out your 6 day theory was flawed?

The earth is only 5000 years old?  What did you do when you found out everything you believed was wrong?


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## sealybobo (Jan 29, 2018)

Death Angel said:


> tycho1572 said:
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> > I ‘know’ it’s silly to think our star is the only one, of trillions, that could have a planet with intelligent life.
> ...



Do you see how small we are?





So when we look off to another solar system, what do we see?  We see their star and we see their Jupiter.  Maybe we see their Saturn?  But we certainly don't see their earth, if they have one.

We are all alone because anything else out there is so far away we can't see.  So as far as you are concerned, we are alone.  But any thinking person would say there were probably worlds like ours before ours and there will be others after.  Because new stars are being born every day.


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## task0778 (Jan 29, 2018)

Death Angel said:


> tycho1572 said:
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> > I ‘know’ it’s silly to think our star is the only one, of trillions, that could have a planet with intelligent life.
> ...



And what if it isn't?   Geez, we've only looked that closely at our moon and Mars, everywhere else is to be determined.   We do know that most if not all of the exoplanets identified thus far cannot support life as we know it, but do you realize how many other planets are out there?   And moons, hell we don't even know yet whether there is life elsewhere in our own solar system.   Maybe not intelligent life but it's pretty unlikely that evolution only takes place in one place.   As old as the universe is purported to be, IMHO there have been intelligent species that evolved, lived, and died out long before our own solar system was formed.   Ye, at this point it's speculation, but speculation with a high probability.


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## Montrovant (Jan 29, 2018)

Death Angel said:


> tycho1572 said:
> 
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> > I ‘know’ it’s silly to think our star is the only one, of trillions, that could have a planet with intelligent life.
> ...



What have we actually looked and looked at?  We have very little direct knowledge of other planets.


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## sealybobo (Jan 29, 2018)

task0778 said:


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I saw a science show that suggested our solar system once had a Super planet close to the sun just like most other solar systems. It was suggested our sun ate our super planet otherwise we wouldn’t be here. 

And of course life may have lived and died on other planets in our own solar system before it was possible on earth. None of them were earth like. Unique to mars or Venus. We don’t know.

There might be life in Europa now. We don’t know.

So we certainly don’t know about life on other stars


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## ThisIsMe (Feb 9, 2018)

If there is life out there, then why are they so elusive and secretive?  

We have many people saying they have seen "things", but never anything substantiated. If they are out there, why don't they just land and make themselves known?  

It is fascinating though. If we are alone, in a never ending universe, it truly is mind boggling to think of it.  

I come at it from a religious perspective though. That is, if there are other life forms out there, why are they not talked about in the Bible?  Why does the Bible not make mention of any other planets inhabited with people, or aliens. 

I speculate that one reason is, maybe God did create other life forms, but kept us from each other and maybe it is the intent thatbwe are supposed to find each other. Maybe they have their own version of the Bible.  

Again, just an interesting question. Why are there no concrete bits of evidence showing other life.


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## sealybobo (Feb 9, 2018)

ThisIsMe said:


> If there is life out there, then why are they so elusive and secretive?
> 
> We have many people saying they have seen "things", but never anything substantiated. If they are out there, why don't they just land and make themselves known?
> 
> ...


Why are we so elusive and secretive? Perhaps they’re just like us. They haven’t figured out how to travel light years


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## ThisIsMe (Feb 9, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> ThisIsMe said:
> 
> 
> > If there is life out there, then why are they so elusive and secretive?
> ...


Well, I was referring to those accounts of ufo sightings and such


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## task0778 (Feb 9, 2018)

ThisIsMe said:


> sealybobo said:
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Lots of these accounts around and by reputable people too.


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## sealybobo (Feb 9, 2018)

ThisIsMe said:


> sealybobo said:
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> > ThisIsMe said:
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Those are crap. No ufos.

But if there were it would make sense they hide. Like Star Trek their prime directive is to not interfere 

And we would experiment on them.

What if they are so small you can’t see them. Have you ever seen tardigrades? Like that small. They could be here how would you know?


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## sealybobo (Feb 9, 2018)

task0778 said:


> ThisIsMe said:
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I know reputable people who claim to have seen ghosts demons and angels that doesn’t mean they exist


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## ThisIsMe (Feb 9, 2018)

task0778 said:


> ThisIsMe said:
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> > sealybobo said:
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Im not  calling into question the integrity of people who claim to have seen ufos, I'm just saying, if they are out there, why are they trying to remain undetected?


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## ThisIsMe (Feb 9, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> ThisIsMe said:
> 
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> > sealybobo said:
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I wouldn't think they'd be worried about us experimenting on them. Any civilization advanced enough to have inter planetary travel surely is advanced enough to protect themselves from us.


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## task0778 (Feb 9, 2018)

ThisIsMe said:


> task0778 said:
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Who the hell knows?   But that doesn't mean they ain't out there.   For all we know, those UFOs are unmanned drones or even human beings from our future that found a way to go back in time.   There are theoretical physicists who say that time travel is possible, even though we don't know how to do it.   Yet.


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## Montrovant (Feb 9, 2018)

task0778 said:


> ThisIsMe said:
> 
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Or maybe they are entirely Earthly phenomena, simply unexplained.    Less fun to speculate on, but probably more likely.


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## task0778 (Feb 9, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> task0778 said:
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Possibly.   OTOH, some of those accounts cannot be earthly phenomena or man-made either.   Some of these UFOs are reported to have done things that simply cannot be done or explained away.


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## Montrovant (Feb 9, 2018)

task0778 said:


> Montrovant said:
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I tend to disagree.  Some may not be able to be man-made, but all may have Earthly explanations.  That those who viewed the objects cannot explain it, or even that no one who hears a recounting can explain it, does not mean there is no Earthly explanation.  Further, there is always the possibility of error on the part of the people who see the phenomena; eyewitnesses often make mistakes about what they have seen.

Of course some alien explanation is possible, but there are a LOT of UFO sightings.


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## rightwinger (Feb 10, 2018)

Are we alone in the universe?
The universe is too vast for us to be alone

Can we make contact?
The universe is too vast to make contact


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## sealybobo (Feb 10, 2018)

ThisIsMe said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
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> > ThisIsMe said:
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Not necessarily. What if they are weak and smart.

Do you know that if every spider were smart and they coordinated with each other they could kill every human on the planet?

If we could travel to another planet what would we take with us to stop 1 billion alpha centarians from over powering us? They may have every weapon we have now.

Wouldn’t it be great if they were so primitive they thought we were gods? Maybe the Egyptian pharaohs were space travelers. Who was the king Moses served? Alien. George Washington? Alien. Gw bush? Descended from aliens


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## sealybobo (Feb 10, 2018)

task0778 said:


> ThisIsMe said:
> 
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All these stupid hypothesises are why I won’t settle on “must be god”.

The truth is anything’s possible. Must be why theists had to write stories about when the one and only god visited. Now it’s supposedly a fact


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## ThisIsMe (Feb 10, 2018)

The answer is, it's not life from other planets. It's all human. The ufos come from agartha, and it's German technology developed in the early 1900s.  

[emoji3]


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## sealybobo (Feb 10, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Are we alone in the universe?
> The universe is too vast for us to be alone
> 
> Can we make contact?
> The universe is too vast to make contact


And getting vaster by the minute. One day humans will look up and only see a few faint lights in the distance. If humanity took a step back and lost all the knowledge we have today humans might look up and truly believe we are alone because they won’t see all the other stars we see today. Assuming we’re still around then


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## Montrovant (Feb 10, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Are we alone in the universe?
> The universe is too vast for us to be alone
> 
> Can we make contact?
> The universe is too vast to make contact



That is, sadly, probably true.


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## JohnPrewett (Feb 13, 2018)

Why bother to ask the question ?   You wouldn't believe anyone that claimed to know one way or another .... would you ?


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 13, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> task0778 said:
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> > ThisIsMe said:
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*The Psychological Power of Suggestion*

There was no talk about spaceships before man invented flight.  The imaginary creatures were self-propelled.  Also adequately disproving these fables is that they weren't even assigned an extraterrestrial home until astronomers discovered that the stars were like our sun.


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## sealybobo (Feb 13, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Montrovant said:
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If you watch ancient aliens they'll tell you that our primitive ancestors drew pictures of the aliens that visited.


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## Montrovant (Feb 13, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
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Aliens?  Those are clearly representations of Pinhead!


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## rightwinger (Feb 13, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
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Aliens could have made better drawings


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## petro (Feb 13, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> task0778 said:
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This was posted on another thread, but reveals some new thinking regarding a quantum correction.
Interesting article. 
No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning


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## PredFan (Feb 13, 2018)

That depends on what you mean? Are we the only life in the universe? IMO we aren’t the only life in this solar system. There is primitive life in our own solar system, I strongly believe that. 

Are we the only sentient life? We could be. There certainly has not been any contact with aliens of any kind.


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## petro (Feb 13, 2018)

PredFan said:


> That depends on what you mean? Are we the only life in the universe? IMO we aren’t the only life in this solar system. There is primitive life in our own solar system, I strongly believe that.
> 
> Are we the only sentient life? We could be. There certainly has not been any contact with aliens of any kind.


Sentient life based on a human definition? 
My belief is it lives among us in the Cetacean mammals within our own oceans. Creatures with complex language and larger brains around a lot longer than humankind. For all we know whales are communicating complex mathematical formulas for pure enjoyment, or simply thinking, "that fish looks yummy".
We tend to dismiss the emotion and intelligence of creatures on our own planet. How the hell would we ever really understand an alien life form? 
Can we really measure conscience?


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## sealybobo (Feb 13, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > The Sage of Main Street said:
> ...


It was the primitive humans who drew what they saw. Let me give you some charcoal Leonardo and see how you draw.


PredFan said:


> That depends on what you mean? Are we the only life in the universe? IMO we aren’t the only life in this solar system. There is primitive life in our own solar system, I strongly believe that.
> 
> Are we the only sentient life? We could be. There certainly has not been any contact with aliens of any kind.


They can’t reach us we can’t reach them. Consider voyager two has been traveling for around 30 years and it’s finally out of our solar system. Another 80,000 years it will reach alpha Centauri 

We are 1% different than great apes. Just 1% separate us from them. Not hard to imagine another civilization that is 1% smarter than us. Their kids would do quantum physics for fun. All it would have taken was better leaders. Less war like and more scientific. But even they haven’t figured out how to get here. 

Take a grain of sand. Now take another grain of sand 4 miles away. Those are our sun and alpha Centauri. Now think about how small you are to that grain of sand. 

They may be looking at our sun and our biggest planets and not seeing the microbes on our tiny planet. God love it


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## sealybobo (Feb 13, 2018)

JohnPrewett said:


> Why bother to ask the question ?   You wouldn't believe anyone that claimed to know one way or another .... would you ?


I want people to understand just how big the universe is and how ridiculous it is to think we are alone just because the universe is to vast for us to know. It’s an assumption based on evidence because there is no evidence true but my favorite saying is “it’s like sticking your head in the ocean and declaring it’s safe to go in. There are no sharks as far as you can see


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## JohnPrewett (Feb 14, 2018)

Contact with non-human sentient beings has been oft reported.   Naturally, many refuse to believe it.


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## ThisIsMe (Feb 14, 2018)

JohnPrewett said:


> Contact with non-human sentient beings has been oft reported.   Naturally, many refuse to believe it.


They only refuse to believe is because they usually have no evidence of the encounter, and, the vast majority of people have no had any experience that would lead them to believe they exist.  Myself, I've not had any experience, nor have I seen lights in the sky, or unexplained objects floating around.


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## PredFan (Feb 14, 2018)

petro said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > That depends on what you mean? Are we the only life in the universe? IMO we aren’t the only life in this solar system. There is primitive life in our own solar system, I strongly believe that.
> ...



Point taken, but isn't the question based on the premise that we could have some kind of interaction? That maybe they can teach us important things like cures for disease, things like that. We are killing whales for various products and we could easily wipe them out. How sentient is that really? They are certainly complex life forms but I believe they fall short of sentience, at least the kind of sentience that we are talking about here.


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## PredFan (Feb 14, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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Hard to argue with that but it doesn't really change anything. We are both speculating here. I choose to believe that because of physics and the vast distances between the stars, we are for all intents and purposes, alone.

And hey, someone has to be #1 right?


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 14, 2018)

petro said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
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*Nothing Can Go From A to B Without Going Through AB, Unless It Goes ACB*

A combination of Quantum Quackery and Relativity Irrelevance.  The phrase "absent-minded professors" should be taken literally.


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## sealybobo (Feb 14, 2018)

PredFan said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
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> > rightwinger said:
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Not only are we all alone because of the distance, we are being separated more and more every second because all the other stars are moving away from us at a faster and faster speed.  

Yesterday I heard that in the future we will only be able to see stars in our galaxy.  Before I heard that in a million years our ancestors might look up and only see a few faint lights off in the distance at night because all the other galaxies that we see now, we won't see them then.

Imagine if our ancestors didn't have the benefit of looking up and seeing all those other stars.  Imagine if at night the sky was truly black.  Then we for sure would have thought we were all alone.  Lucky for us we can see more stars than our sun.  

Now imagine how many starts our ancestors saw 10,000 years ago before our skyline was ruined with city lights.  They were much closer and brighter and there were more of them.  You know how when you go to the country away from the city lights you can see more stars and they are brighter?  Well 10,000 years ago they were much brighter and closer.  I would have loved to see what it looked like.


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## sealybobo (Feb 14, 2018)

PredFan said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
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Imagine another species in another part of the universe looks into the Milky Way Galaxy.  There are maybe 400 billion stars in our galaxy.  So the first thing they have to do is pick our solar system.  Ok, so let's say they do.  We know they will see Jupiter & Saturn.  But will they even see earth?

Do you know that we are just now realizing we have a 9th planet in our solar system?  

Planet Nine Could Be Our Solar System's Missing 'Super Earth'

How do we not know this?  And now that we speculate it, how have we not been able to immediately confirm it's existence?  

So we don't even know what's in our back yard let alone all the stars in our universe.  How can we say there is no life surrounding other stars when we don't even know about us yet?  And if we look at a far away star, do we see their earth?  Or is it tiny like our earth is?


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## petro (Feb 14, 2018)

PredFan said:


> petro said:
> 
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Take that a step to a civilization tens of thousands of years more advanced than humankind.
They would probably regard us as nothing more than animals. And we would be just as helpless if they decided we should be extinct. Our senses and perception are really quite dull and our knowledge is very limited despite those that think technology has risen us. Not to mention our lack of emotional control. War being the prime example.
I dont believe we should define a conscience lifeform  only on the premise they are builders. We have no measurement of something we cannot even define.


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## sealybobo (Feb 14, 2018)

petro said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > petro said:
> ...


It is very possible killer whales and dolphins are really smart. Even if they can’t build spaceships.

And I bet they believe god is a dolphin.


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## petro (Feb 14, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> petro said:
> 
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> > PredFan said:
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Reminds me of the Star Trek movie where the alien probe was sending whale song and was gonna wipe out Earth since the whales were extinct. 

As far as the OP. It is in our best interest that nothing contacts us until we are far more advanced.
Even Hawking thought it unwise to give an invite and directions on the Voyager. Silence from the stars just ensures our survival. I dont believe we would fare well from any encounter at this point.


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## JohnPrewett (Feb 14, 2018)

QUOTE="JohnPrewett, post: 19285526, member: 60004"]Contact with non-human sentient beings has been oft reported.   Naturally, many refuse to believe it.[/QUOTE]



ThisIsMe said:


> [They only refuse to believe is because they usually have no evidence of the encounter, and, the vast majority of people have no had any experience that would lead them to believe they exist.  Myself, I've not had any experience, nor have I seen lights in the sky, or unexplained objects floating around.



Much evidence has been proffered ....and is routinely 'knee jerk' dismissed for psychological pathological reasons. 

Basically, there are a lot of people who are certain "God" must be a real 'kill-joy' that would 'cramps ones style' 

and are convinced that if a "God" did exist then this "God" would most certainly condemn them.

So for many it's just psychologically easier to be in a permanent state of denial of even a shred of evidence for God.


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## yiostheoy (Feb 14, 2018)

Robert_Stephens said:


> Before I start this, this is my personal only opinion of studying this topic for over 35 years now. And though, off record, over 89% of NASA people and affiliated enterprises agree also with what follows, this is strictly my own take and stand at this time on this topic.
> 
> First,  you must get very familiar with this link and data below, concerning the Drake Equation. It is the most compelling math tool and anyone can use it and it is fabulous for this subject. Here it is:
> 
> ...


Old thread.


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## yiostheoy (Feb 14, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > If this has already been brought up, I apologize, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread tonight.
> ...


Did you bump this or did someone on my iggy?


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## sealybobo (Feb 15, 2018)

yiostheoy said:


> sealybobo said:
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I did


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## PredFan (Feb 15, 2018)

petro said:


> sealybobo said:
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That is of course assuming that we aren't the most advanced beings in the entire universe. May we are. Someone has to be #1. Maybe we are destined to be the ones that visit and abduct other beings. Maybe WE are the ones to be afraid of.


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## sealybobo (Feb 15, 2018)

PredFan said:


> petro said:
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> > sealybobo said:
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A part of me hopes so and a part of me says no way we are the smartest things in the universe.

There have already been 18 school shootings in the US this year: Everytown

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-Americans-elect-a-mad-man-for-president

















No way we are the smartest things in the universe.

It's possible cuttlefish are smarter than we are


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## Montrovant (Feb 15, 2018)

PredFan said:


> petro said:
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Maybe, but I don't want to think that way!


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## PredFan (Feb 15, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> PredFan said:
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> > petro said:
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Well there haven't been 18 school shootings this year, and Rush is a smart guy,


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## sealybobo (Feb 15, 2018)

PredFan said:


> sealybobo said:
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In eight of the 17 school shootings recorded by Everytown prior to today, a gun was fired but no one was injured.


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## PredFan (Feb 15, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



this is off topic but essentuially you are right. Two were suicides, and one of the suicides was an adult who killed himself after a stand off in a school parking lot when the school was not in session, two others occurred when a drive by shooting happened near the school but not on school grounds and the bullets ended up coming to a rest on school property, another was at a college where a criminal justice student accidentally fired a gun that he thought was unloaded in a class demonstration (no one was hurt), and so on. In the end there are only three shootings that qualify as actual school shootings this year. Still too many for sure but it shows what liars the left is.


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## The Original Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

*Human beings are unique, period.

If one believes in Evolution, (The Spontaneous Generation of Life and It’s Evolution) then one must defend the lack of evolution in all other species and defend why we are the only sentient beings on the planet.

Why have humans evolved exclusively to what we are today?

Scientists cannot reproduce life spontaneously in a laboratory despite spending countless millions and decades with all the right building blocks etc etc.

Lastly I hold two slightly different theories on life elsewhere.

One is based on a C.S. Lewis Novel.
We are a “Dark Planet”.  Having fallen from Grace, Earth is a forbidden zone and isolated from the rest of he universe.  

We can only peer through the looking glass, but we as a species will never be visited by others or escape our own solar system until The Return of Christ and a restoration of humanity to an eternal uncorrupted state.  We are exiles on a exiled planet.  

The universe may be populated with fantastic civilizations but their exists a veil between they and we, and we and they will never meet until that veil is torn asunder.

Following within the same vein, Human beings, were never meant to die.  Death was introduced on Earth once we broke The Edenic Covenant with God.  Being that we were intended to be Eternal beings, this present universe was designed for us.  That is our frontier to explore and colonize.

That was our destiny and again, we will not be able to realize that destiny until we are restored to our eternal and incorruptible state. 
*


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## Montrovant (Feb 18, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> *Human beings are unique, period.
> 
> If one believes in Evolution, (The Spontaneous Generation of Life and It’s Evolution) then one must defend the lack of evolution in all other species and why we are the only sentient beings on the planet.
> 
> ...



What lack of evolution in other species?

If you think there is a lack of evolution in other species, I think you have a poor understanding of evolution.  It doesn't require an in-depth knowledge to know that according to evolutionary theory, other species have evolved over time, not just humans.


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## The Original Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

*Evolution is an unobserved event and is a theory.

It is an attempt by the watch to rationalize his existence apart from the watchmaker.

No species has evolved in to a Sentient Being.

No species creates written language, art, music, industry, medicine, science, manufacturing, complex mathematics, technology, space exploration and even complex concepts like Social Engineering, Propaganda, Deception, Fraud, Social and Political Organization, Social Manipulation, Social Media, Economics, Or Lying...

Why?

Lets not talk about “Theory”

Let’s talk about results.

Where is man’s competition?

Why are all other species beholden to and subservient to man?



Montrovant said:





The Original Tree said:



			Human beings are unique, period.

If one believes in Evolution, (The Spontaneous Generation of Life and It’s Evolution) then one must defend the lack of evolution in all other species and why we are the only sentient beings on the planet.

Why have humans evolved exclusively to what we are today?

Scientists cannot reproduce life spontaneously in a laboratory despite spending countless millions and decades with all the right building blocks etc etc.

Lastly I hold two slightly different theories on life elsewhere.

One is based on a C.S. Lewis Novel.
We are a “Dark Planet”.  Having fallen from Grace, Earth is a forbidden zone and isolated from the rest of he universe.  We can only peer through the looking glass, but we as a species will never be visited by others or escape our own solar system until The Return of Christ and a restoration of humanity to an eternal uncorrupted state.

Following within the same vein, Human beings, were never meant to die.  Death was introduced on Earth once we broke The Edenic Covenant with God.  Being that we were intended to be Eternal beings, this present universe was designed for us.  That is our frontier to explore and colonize.

That was our destiny and again, we will not be able to realize that destiny until we are restored to our eternal and incorruptible state.
		
Click to expand...


What lack of evolution in other species?

If you think there is a lack of evolution in other species, I think you have a poor understanding of evolution.  It doesn't require an in-depth knowledge to know that according to evolutionary theory, other species have evolved over time, not just humans.
		
Click to expand...

*


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## Montrovant (Feb 18, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> *Evolution is an unobserved event and is a theory.
> 
> It is an attempt by he watch to rationalize his existence apart from the watchmaker.
> 
> ...



Evolution is not about developing sentience.

A scientific theory is not the same as the colloquial use of the word theory.

Other animal species may be sentient.  It probably depends on how the individual defines sentience, as well as how the available evidence is read.

Being able to create life has nothing to do with evolution.  Evolution is about what life does once it already exists, not about how life comes about in the first place.

Define all other species being beholden to man.


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## The Original Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

*Man is Lord and Master over all other species because he is Sentient.

Because he is Sentient, anything he lacks in comparison to all other species he can overcome through “Invention”.

Man can create, because he has the traits of his Father, The Watchmaker who created him.  Thus, he holds in his hand and in his mind, the power of creation.

No other species is capable of this.

Man has language because “The Word” is his Father.

Man can learn, write speak and interpret multiple languages.

He can even invent languages.

No other species can do this.

Man is Sentient because he is a child of “Logos”.

No other species has these traits.*

*If the Pinacle of all life on Earth and all Evolution, is to become man with his vast intellect and advantages over all other species, then Evolution is the most lobsided Genetic Arms Race That EVER EXISTED in the Struggle for Survival.

There isn’t even a 2nd place, 3rd place or participation trophy you could award any other species even to say “thanks for trying”. You can’t even hand out a t-shirt for the effort.

They wouldn’t know what the Hell it was.*


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## Montrovant (Feb 18, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> *Man is Lord and Master over all other species because he is Sentient.
> 
> Because he is Sentient, anything he lacks in comparison to all other species he can overcome through “Invention”.
> 
> ...



Sentience isn't the only reason for mankind's technology.  Opposable thumbs help a bunch.


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## The Original Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

That was a rather weak response and it appears to have taken you a long time to think of it.

Being able to grasp an object is far different than creating a tool and dominating other species with such Sentient abilities.

Otherwise Squirrels, Possums, Raccoons and Monkeys would be going to Law School and Running for Congress, or teaching at the school you graduated from

You seem limited in your ability to grasp things outside yourself other than a mechanical like understanding of the world around you.

When you can answer the questions I have posed to you as to why man is so unique in a multifaceted capacity above all other species, then perhaps you will have had an epiphany.

Until then, you may continue on with your defense of “Man Is Just an Animal”

Nothing to see here....move along.



Montrovant said:


> The Original Tree said:
> 
> 
> > *Man is Lord and Master over all other species because he is Sentient.
> ...


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## Montrovant (Feb 18, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> That was a rather week response and it appears to have taken you a long time to think of it.
> 
> Being able to grasp an object is far different than creating a tool and dominating other species with such Sentient abilities.
> 
> ...



My reply took all of about 30 seconds to think of.  I'm not waiting breathless for your replies.  

Yes, intelligence is required to create technology.  My point was that intelligence is not the only thing involved in the creation of technology.  Whales, for example, are limited both by their lack of grasping ability and by the environment they live in (using fire would be a pretty nifty trick for an ocean-dwelling creature).  So, while it's possible that whales are both sentient and use language, the physical differences between the species could have determined why humans grew into the technological creatures we are while whales did not.

Obviously that's speculation.

Man is unique in some ways, I don't deny that.  I'm sure many animals and plants have unique characteristics that humanity does not.  What is your point?

And what is with this recurring theme that intelligence or humanity are some sort of pinnacle?


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## The Original Tree (Feb 18, 2018)

My point is that you don’t have a point.

You cannot even agree with your own Mantra of The LAW if the Jungle and Survival of The Fittest.

You have to deny the uniqueness of man in order to make a weak argument.

Since we are talking about survival of the fittest, tell the whales to evolve a way to throw harpoons back at man before we hunt them to extinction.

If we are mere animals, then things like Conservation, showing mercy to an enemy and self restraint; things unique to man need not be exercised.

Neither should we follow any rules or ethics or commandments.  If I want your land, your possessions your woman, I take them because you are weak.

Like I said,your intellect is mechanically limited by what could only be an indoctrinated education in to liberal paradigms.

It’s sad really that you cannot overcome that.

Now please return to your Squirrel Overlords, and Their Nut Farm.



Montrovant said:


> The Original Tree said:
> 
> 
> > That was a rather week response and it appears to have taken you a long time to think of it.
> ...


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## Montrovant (Feb 18, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> My point is that you don’t have a point.
> 
> You cannot even agree with your own Mantra of The LAW if the Jungle and Survival of The Fittest.
> 
> ...



Wow, that was some ramble.  Do you feel better?


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## The Original Tree (Feb 19, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> The Original Tree said:
> 
> 
> > My point is that you don’t have a point.
> ...



*When you try to have a dialogue with someone, and they ignore every point you make, and their final whimpering argument is "what about opposable thumbs" I think it's time to just throw the hammer down on them.  That's why I told the poster he had no point, because he wasn't having a discussion, he was engaging in deflection.

Maybe the next election The Democrats should try to run an Evolutionist Possum as President.  Not only do they have opposable thumbs, but they have a prehensile tail too.  And when they play dead, they sure as Hell would look a lot more alive than Hillary Clinton.

Opposable Thumbs – Uniquely Human?  Not hardly.

"Other animals with opposable thumbs include gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, and other variants of apes; certain frogs, koalas, pandas, possums and opossums, and many birds have an opposable digit of some sort.  Many dinosaurs had opposable digits as well."  *


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## Montrovant (Feb 19, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > The Original Tree said:
> ...



"Told the poster he had no point"....do you understand you have only been talking with one poster here?  

I have not ignored every point you have made.  I have, in fact, specifically responded to multiple points you have made.

You went on to start having arguments with straw men, such as that I denied the uniqueness of man (I did not, and in fact mentioned that man has unique characteristics), or that I cannot agree with my mantra of law of the jungle and survival of the fittest (that is my mantra?).  You also threw out some random stuff about not having commandments if humans are a type of animal, and how I should tell whales to evolve to throw harpoons back at man.

If you are trying to have a dialogue, you might want to cut back on the random nonsense.  

Good job trying to make evolution about US political parties, by the way!  

And to try to direct this back toward the original intent of the thread, do you think that it is possible another intelligent, technological life might exist in the universe?


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## The Original Tree (Feb 19, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> The Original Tree said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...



*The original intent of what I posted, was that Man is Unique, and there is more evidence that he was Created rather than was evolved.  If that is true then there are two legitimate reasons for why we are not having regular contact with other Sentient Beings.

Meanwhile  back on Earth....

Other species have had the chance to evolve, and The Theory of Evolution more or less states that Genetic Dominance is the goal.....it's the whole point....so anyone who wants to simply make logical deductions, need to ask themselves, why the rest of the participants in the Genetic Pool on Earth are Pathetic Losers.

If there is advanced life on other habitable planets they would have made contact by now, if Evolution is the primary driver of life on a planet.

Billions of years is more than enough time for this to happen.*

*Opposable thumbs or not.*


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 19, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> The Original Tree said:
> 
> 
> > That was a rather week response and it appears to have taken you a long time to think of it.
> ...


*Prometheus Shrugged*

You're jealous of High IQ creative genius, yet they created everything that keeps you from living like a desperate wild animal.  They also created all the wealth stolen from them by the plutocracy, which manipulated you into your illogical insults and ingratitude.


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## Montrovant (Feb 19, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > The Original Tree said:
> ...



What makes the rest of life on Earth "Pathetic Losers"?  There is no "goal" of evolution, it is a description of the changes that happen in life forms over time.  If you were to ascribe a goal to evolution, I think it would be to survive and procreate.

If there is advanced life on other planets, why would they have made contact by now?  And what does it have to do with evolution?  Are you aware that the universe encompasses a vast, vast area?  The closest star to our solar system, Proxima Centauri, is over 4 light years away.  That means it takes light more than 4 years to get from here to that star.  Humanity cannot get anywhere close to the speed of light, and it may even be that matter simply cannot travel that fast.  Considering the incredibly vast distances involved and the possible limitations on travel speed, why do you believe that another intelligent life form would have to have made contact with humanity by now?


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## Montrovant (Feb 19, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > The Original Tree said:
> ...



What are you talking about?  My "illogical insults and ingratitude"?


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## The Original Tree (Feb 19, 2018)

You aren’t talking to a flunky here.  I hold two science degrees.

The whole emphasis of Evolution is that the drive to survive and adapt and procreate are a major component of the stimulus that causes Evolution.

You survive by out competing your competition for resources.

There is no species even close that can out compete man.

He is the pinnacle of Evolution & he is the ultimate Apex Predator, and at the same time he is the ultimate Apex Herbivore.

Call me when you can find a species capable of harnessing the power of the sun or who can split the Atom or view the most microscopic objects with an Electron Microscope, or scan the heavens with fantastic instruments, or build the Marvels that man can build.

Call me when you can find an animal that can compete with man.

There isn’t even a second place. Yet in the Animal Kingdom[ there are many species who can compete with other species.

When you figure out why man is so elevated above all else, then our discussion can begin, otherwise for me it is a futile exercise as would be trying to teach calculus to a tortoise.


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## Montrovant (Feb 19, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> You aren’t talking to a flunky here.  I hold two science degrees.
> 
> The whole emphasis of Evolution is that the drive to survive and adapt and procreate are a major component of the stimulus that causes Evolution.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Humans are not herbivores.  We are omnivores.

Is any species which is not at the top of the food chain a "pathetic loser"?

What is your point?  Does it have anything to do with the possibility of other intelligent life in the universe?

You also seem to have ignored my questions about why you think any other intelligent life would have contacted humanity by now.


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## The Original Tree (Feb 19, 2018)

Hence I said we are the Apex Predator, (Meat Eater) and an Apex Herbivore.

That is an Omnivore...or are you being intentionally dense, or you really cannot fathom that?

I’m done with you now.

This isn’t a serious conversation

Read upstream for answers to your questions.  I’m done repeating myself and have already answered them.


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## Montrovant (Feb 19, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> Hence I said we are the Apex Predator, (Meat Eater) and an Apex Herbivore.
> 
> That is an Omnivore...or are you being intentionally dense, or you really cannot fathom that?
> 
> ...



An omnivore is not an herbivore.  There is no such thing as an "Apex Herbivore" that I'm aware of.  

Of course you're done.  If you continue the conversation, I'll keep pointing out the mistaken things you say, the odd ramblings you post, and I'll keep questioning your statements which you provide no explanation for.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...


*Mere Survival Is Failure*

You can't get off the hook by pretending you don't understand.  You know perfectly well that ascribing mankind's success to physical evolution is an insult to intelligence.  You're also Postmodern Decadent in saying that the evolutionary goal of _homo sapiens _is no different from that of the animals.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> The Original Tree said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...



You were doing great until you got to our ability to achieve the speed of light. 

A few months ago we treated some out of town friends to a movie "Space" at the Dynamax Theater at our local Science and Natural History museum.  It was a highly instructive teaching of all the newest things we have discovered about space and the relationship of all that we know is in it to Planet Earth.  (It was also in 3D which was a real treat for Hombre as he had never seen a 3D movie.)

As you know, I have had a long fascination with possibilities in space travel and have longed for technology that would allow travel at multiple warp speeds such as was envisioned in the "Star Trek" series or the "Star Wars" trilogy while fully realizing this is just wonderful fictitious imagination.  Until now.

In the movie they showed a concept of how humankind, with the right kind of technology and machine, could achieve warp speed (speed of light) and beyond.  It is entirely possible and plausible.  We haven't figured out how to make it happen yet, but it is now obvious that it is on the scientific drawing board as a goal to accomplish.

So, assuming that we Earthlings are probably in technological infancy compared to at least some other civilizations in the universe, and given the large number of unexplained sightings and encounters of UFOs, I think it highly likely that one or more of those civilizations has probably been here.  I also think they have also evolved to the point that they intend us no harm because with their superior technology, they certainly could have harmed us.


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## Skull Pilot (Feb 20, 2018)

I don't think we are alone but I'm in no hurry to meet a technologically superior race that will wipe us out in order to take control of our planet


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## Moonglow (Feb 20, 2018)

Mr. H. said:


> We're just ugly bags of mostly water.


and carbon..


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> I don't think we are alone but I'm in no hurry to meet a technologically superior race that will wipe us out in order to take control of our planet



I think it highly likely we have already met so technologically superior race that has had us under surveillance for some time now.  I am pretty sure if their intent was to wipe us out and take control of our planet they would have already done so.

I like to think such an advanced species has already made most of its mistakes and has learned how to live together cooperative and constructively, i.e. is past its predatory stage.  They probably would be watching to be sure we also learn that before our technology becomes advanced enough to be a threat to others.


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## Skull Pilot (Feb 20, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think we are alone but I'm in no hurry to meet a technologically superior race that will wipe us out in order to take control of our planet
> ...



That's a dangerous assumption,


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > The Sage of Main Street said:
> ...



Wait, belief in evolution is an insult to intelligence?  

And are you saying that evolution works differently with humanity than it does with other species?


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## alang1216 (Feb 20, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think we are alone but I'm in no hurry to meet a technologically superior race that will wipe us out in order to take control of our planet
> ...


I agree we could be under study already but that is all they want from us.  Like we would study a colony of ants just to learn about them, we wouldn't care if they wiped out a termite nest or were themselves wiped out.


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > The Original Tree said:
> ...



Much as I'd love to see interstellar travel, there are some issues with this.

First, so far as I know, any concept for FTL travel is completely untested.  As of now, humanity can't even come in shouting distance of the speed of light, let alone surpass it.

Second, even if it is possible, are the mechanical or energy requirements to do so feasible?  If getting a ship to go FTL requires the equivalent of, say, the power used to run a major city, that could keep it from happening.

Third, even at FTL speeds, the vast majority of the universe may be out of reach.  As I believe I pointed out, the closest star to our solar system is over 4 light years away.  If we came up with a method of travel that let us go two times as fast as light speed.....it would still take 2 years just to get to the nearest star.  To really explore the galaxy, let alone the universe, we would need to achieve speeds far in excess of the speed of light.  We're talking hundreds or thousands of times faster than light.  The Milky Way galaxy is estimated to be about 100,000 light years across.  Even traveling at 100 times the speed of light, it would take a millennia to get from one side to the other.

Unless another intelligent life form comes from close by, cosmically speaking, or that intelligent life form has devised a way to travel at many, many times the speed of light, the odds are good we would not encounter them.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Perhaps.  But it is a highly logical one.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Montrovant said:
> ...



Our Founders would have been equally skeptical had we told them that future generations would be able to transmit voices over thousands of miles so clearly that it would seem they were right with us, that we could visit with a loved one in Africa or Europe via skype, that we would witness events hundreds or thousands of miles away live on our living room television set.

Not only did the movie convince me that the technology was possible, but that now that we can envision it, we can and will achieve it.  Perhaps not in this generation, but on down the line.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Or again, as sentient beings capable of being interested in other species, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't have a capacity to care about those other species just as we do.  But as our species still too often tends to be highly competitive, militant, and a danger to ourselves and others, their concern now could also be cautionary, just as we watch Iran or North Korea or others with track records of being a danger to others.  I think if they are here, they intend us no harm.  But if we are developing technology capable of harming them before we have evolved into a species capable of living together in harmony, mutual cooperation, and peace, it is not unreasonable that they would intervene.


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## alang1216 (Feb 20, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


> alang1216 said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


It's hard to imagine we could develop technology to threaten a space-faring civilization.  We probably much closer to the ancient Romans and they have nothing that could seriously threaten us.  Even the Germans of WWII would be no match for us today.

IMHO, the aliens are here but choose not to reveal themselves as that would affect our development and screw up their study of us.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > alang1216 said:
> ...



While I think you could be correct that the aliens choose not to interact with us so as not to interfere with our civilization at this time--unless one or more of the hundreds of people who claim to have been on board one of their space craft are telling the truth--but I fully expect humankind from Earth to some day be among the space faring peoples.


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## alang1216 (Feb 20, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


> I fully expect humankind from Earth to some day be among the space faring peoples.


I don't.  Humans are not designed for space.  We will give rise to synthetic beings that will be able to endure space.


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## task0778 (Feb 20, 2018)

FYI:

Science fiction writers and moviemakers have shown us countless visions of humanity spread out across the Universe, so you might be forgiven for thinking that we’ve already got this in the bag. Unfortunately, we still have more than a few technical limitations to overcome – like the laws of physics as we understand them – before we can start colonising new worlds beyond our Solar System and galaxy.

That said, several privately funded or volunteer initiatives such as the Tau Zero Foundation, Project Icarus and Breakthrough Starshot have emerged in recent years, each hoping to bring us a little bit closer to reaching across the cosmos. The discovery in August (2016) of an Earth-sized planet orbiting our nearest star has also raised fresh hopes about visiting an alien world.

Interstellar spacecraft will be one of the topics discussed at BBC Future’s World-Changing Ideas Summit in Sydney in November. Is travelling to other galaxies possible? And if so, what kinds of spacecraft might we need to achieve it? Read on to get up to (warp) speed:

WHERE WOULD WE GO? 

Where wouldn’t we go? There are more stars in the Universe than there are grains of sand on Earth – around 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 – and billions of these are estimated to have one to three planets in the so-called ‘Goldilocks’ zone: not too hot, not too cold.

Proxima b is in the right temperature range for liquid water, which is a useful proxy for habitability

As we’re just starting out, the best contender so far is our nearest stellar neighbour – the triple star system of Alpha Centauri, 4.37 light-years away. This year, astronomers at the European Southern Observatory discovered an Earth-sized planet orbiting Alpha Centauri’s red dwarf star Proxima Centauri. The planet, named Proxima b, is at least 1.3 times the mass of the Earth but has a very tight orbit around Proxima Centauri, taking just 11 Earth days to complete the trip. What has astronomers and exoplanet hunters especially hot under the collar is that this planet is in the right temperature range for liquid water, which is a useful proxy for habitability.

The downside is we don’t know if it has an atmosphere, and given its closeness to Proxima Centauri – closer than the orbit of Mercury around our Sun – it would likely be exposed to dangerous solar flares and radiation. It is also tidally-locked, which means the planet always presents the same face to its star; something that would completely alter our notions of night and day.

HOW WOULD WE GET THERE?

That’s the $64 trillion question. Even at the fastest speeds of our current technology, a quick jaunt to check out Proxima b would see us arriving in around 18,000 years, by which time there’s every chance our Earth-bound descendants would have arrived there well ahead of us and grabbed all the glory. But many smart minds – and deep pockets – are being turned to the challenge of finding a faster way to cross vast distances of space.

Breakthrough Starshot – a $100 million initiative privately funded by Russian billionaires Yuri and Julia Milner – is focusing on propelling a tiny unmanned probe by hitting its extremely lightweight sail with a powerful Earth-based laser. The idea is that if the spacecraft is small enough – and we’re talking barely a gram – and the sail light enough, the impact of the laser will be enough to gradually accelerate the craft to around one-fifth of the speed of light, taking it to Alpha Centauri in around 20 years.

The Milners are counting on miniaturisation technologies to enable this tiny craft to carry a camera, thrusters, a power supply, communication and navigation equipment so it can report on what it sees as it flashes past Proxima b. Hopefully the news will be good, because that will lay the foundation for the next and more difficult stage of interstellar travel: people-moving.

WHAT ABOUT WARP DRIVE?

Star Trek made it all look so easy, but everything we currently know about the laws of physics tells us that faster-than-light travel – or even travel at the speed of light – is not possible. Not that science is throwing in the towel. Inspired by another propulsion system that has captured the imagine of science fiction creators, Nasa’s Evolutionary Xenon Thruster project is developing an ion engine which is hoped to accelerate a spacecraft to speeds up to 90,000mph (145,000km/h) using only a fraction of the fuel of a conventional rocket.

But even at those speeds, we won’t be getting far out of the Solar System within a single generation of spacefarers. Until we work out how to warp time and space, interstellar travel is going to be a very slow boat to the future. It might even be better to think of that travel period as the end itself, rather than a means to an end.

The myths and reality about interstellar travel


ME:   Doesn't sound like interstellar travel is going to happen for quite some time.   For us anyway.   But that's not to say another older race of beings out there somewhere that had a head start on us for a few million years give or take may have figured out a way to create and use worm holes or warp drives (queue the ST music).   My personal opinion is that as a species we need to develop ourselves in social, non-technical aspects before we start moving off the planet in numbers.   I.E., stop the wars, clean up the place, and ca the BS.   We still got some growing up to do, and it could be that one or more advanced species from out there somewhere are keeping an eye on us.   Let's hope they ain't Klingons.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


> Foxfyre said:
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> > I fully expect humankind from Earth to some day be among the space faring peoples.
> ...



I think humans are designed for space as much as any other species.  I have met a couple of guys who spent months on the Space Station and they said there are still some concerns re some bone loss, etc. in prolonged exposure zero or greatly reduced gravity--so far fully reversible upon return to Earth--but those issues will be resolved in time.  We just haven't yet developed space craft that provides a 100% healthy environment for the space travelers on say a five-year Enterprise mission.  The Enterprise however, did provide such an environment and I fully expect us to get there.  The International Space Station is simply awesome, especially the control room:


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## TroglocratsRdumb (Feb 20, 2018)

just saying....


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

task0778 said:


> FYI:
> 
> Science fiction writers and moviemakers have shown us countless visions of humanity spread out across the Universe, so you might be forgiven for thinking that we’ve already got this in the bag. Unfortunately, we still have more than a few technical limitations to overcome – like the laws of physics as we understand them – before we can start colonising new worlds beyond our Solar System and galaxy.
> 
> ...



Re the possibility of warp speeds in space travel, please see my Post #282.  Not only has science determined that warp speed and multiple warp speed is possible, but they know how it would work.  We just haven't developed the technology to achieve it yet.  But now that we know it is possible and how it can be done, you can be sure there are visionary technicians and scientists figuring that out.  Will no doubt take some time as do all major technological breakthroughs, but I do not have a doubt in the world that it is possible and I also have strong confidence that we will most likely do it.


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

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Creating a ship with some sort of artificial gravity may be necessary for long-term space travel.


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## alang1216 (Feb 20, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


> I think humans are designed for space as much as any other species.


Maybe but that bar is pretty low.  No, our AI will explore and colonize the galaxy, not us.  We spent enormous sums to put men on the moon for a few days at a time.  For a small fraction of that we've had a pair of rovers on Mars for years.  In a few years there won't be anything we can do that our AI can't do faster, safer, and cheaper.  Face it, humans are obsolete.


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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I think some combination may be the most likely scenario, if the technology becomes possible: unmanned ships sent out to do original explorations, followed by human crews to places of particular interest or where some sort of colonization/terraforming seems possible.

Population issues may end up pushing space exploration and human interstellar travel in the future.


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## Skull Pilot (Feb 20, 2018)

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assuming an alien rice will be logical and compassionate is not logical it is idealistic


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


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Assuming much of anything about an alien race doesn't seem particularly logical to me.  Such beings might not even be alive in the way we currently understand it; they might not be made up of the same substances we associate with life; their evolution or biology might have led to much different instincts and history; what such beings consider logical or compassionate might not agree with what humanity thinks (not that humans can agree on those things! ); there is really little more we can do than wild speculation when it comes to other intelligent life in the universe, because we have no real basis for comparison.

I certainly hope that if we do contact another intelligent species, it doesn't immediately decide to destroy/enslave/eat us, though!


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


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Yes, and while we can create artificial gravity, it is still far less than what the human animal is conditioned to here on Earth.  But I am confident that artificial gravity, just like all other technological issues, will be figured out and solved by the time we need it.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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No I won't accept that.  Those Rovers have zero imagination, zero vision, zero capacity to recognize possibilities and innovate.  Humankind is not only not obsolete, but essential to the process.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


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That is my vision.  Obviously Planet Earth cannot sustain an unlimited population of anything let alone resource gobbling humans.  So as we humans learn to live in peace and to value and preserve life, the concept of finding new worlds to explore and populate is very appealing.  And I would like to think possible.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


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It is logical to me.  Any world population that developed technology that would get them from their home planet to this one is most likely a population that has learned to live cooperatively, constructively, peacefully.  Otherwise it would have destroyed themselves which is the ultimate fate of humankind if we fail to learn to do that given our continuous efforts to develop bigger and better technology that would make our extinction/obliteration possible.


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## task0778 (Feb 20, 2018)

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I'll just politely disagree, I don't think warp speeds are possible or plausible just yet.   And IMHO won't be any time soon.   Wouldn't be surprised if eventually we crack that problem and all the others that deal with interstellar travel.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


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For me it is a logical assumption because I believe in my gut that they have most likely been here, and probably are here.  And the fact that they have not harmed us when they would almost certainly have the capability to do so says to me that they intend us no harm.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

task0778 said:


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We can certainly disagree.  But I bet if you saw that scientific documentary at the museum, you would not be saying that warp speeds are neither plausible nor possible.  I am convinced they are.  We are surely some time out perfecting the technology to achieve them, but I would bet the farm that they will be achieved certainly within the next generation or two if not this one.  Once the theory is produced, there are always going going to be visionaries who will set about the task to prove it.


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## alang1216 (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> Population issues may end up pushing space exploration and human interstellar travel in the future.


No, as societies get richer the birth rate shrinks.  I think it more likely that political or religious zeal will drive any colonization.


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## alang1216 (Feb 20, 2018)

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No matter what they are, such an advanced society would have little use for our little ball of rock.  There is nothing special about it, even within our own solar system, except us of course.


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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Why assume societies will be getting richer?


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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I don't think we can have any idea what another advanced civilization might want.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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I like what Starman said in the movie:  "We are interested in  your species.  You are like no other and you would be surprised how many there are.  Intelligent but savage.  You are all so alive. . . .(what is beautiful about us Earthlings). . .you are at your best when things are worst."

Fiction yes.  But I like to think it could have been real.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 20, 2018)

Montrovant said:


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Probably true.  Unless there is a cohesiveness throughout the universe and beings out there aren't all that different from us--they want food, shelter, purpose, love, happiness. . .


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## Montrovant (Feb 20, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


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It could be.  We have so little information to go on, only what we see on Earth.  Maybe there is life throughout the universe, and it's pretty similar to ours.  Maybe we are an anomaly, and life almost never occurs.  Maybe there is plenty of life, but of a form or with drives that are completely alien to us.  So many possibilities, and maybe so many no one has even considered.  It makes for a lot of good science fiction, at least!


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## alang1216 (Feb 21, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> Why assume societies will be getting richer?


That has been the trend for the past 8,000 years.


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## alang1216 (Feb 21, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> I don't think we can have any idea what another advanced civilization might want.


We can't know what they will want but we can guess what they'll need.  And I don't see any need that only Earth could satisfy.


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## alang1216 (Feb 21, 2018)

Montrovant said:


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We may never know for sure but on Earth there is such a thing as convergent evolution, where very different beings, subjected to the same environmental pressures, develop similar forms, e.g., whales and sharks look similar because they both live in water.  Aliens may have evolved in an environment similar to ours and therefore they may well, if not look like us, at least act like us.  Maybe.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 21, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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I don't really expect sentient beings from another planet to necessarily look like us.  While there are so many humans who have lived and are living on Earth who are honest, caring, gentle, respectful, responsible people, as far as visiting extraterrestrials acting like us?  I hope hope hope they have overall learned to do better. 

My instincts tell me they most likely have though, or I think with their vastly advanced technology they likely would have destroyed themselves.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 21, 2018)

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*The Quickest Way From A to B Is ACB*

In the unrecognized Fourth Spatial Dimension, the maximum speed is c squared, or a light year in 3 minutes.  Light is slowed down in 3D because of the drag by space itself, which is a substance.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 21, 2018)

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*NA$A*

For millennia, Earth's human population has expanded without running into permanent limits; there's no reason it can't continue that way.  For example, if Alaska had the population density of New Jersey, where the people are not packed together like sardines, Alaska would hold 700 million people.  The only thing preventing that is advancement in cold-weather technology, which we should put our money in instead of childish Trekkie escapism.


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## Montrovant (Feb 21, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


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Limited resources are a bigger issue in population growth than anything like cold weather technology.


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## alang1216 (Feb 21, 2018)

It is our ability to exploit energy resources that limits us.  From burning wood to nuclear power, our ability has grown exponentially.  I see no reason this won't continue and make us all the richer.


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## The Original Tree (Feb 21, 2018)

The biggest Obstacle is actually Death and Time.

This is why when The End of Days has come, (literally the abolishment of time) and God restores The Earth and Universe, Vanquishing Death & Evil and we then return to The Eternal, that I say The Universe was made for us to Explore and Colonize.

I think this was always meant for us, but we can’t accomplish that until the restrictions of Death and Time are overcome.

Imagine Eternal Man and where we would be today had we not broken The Edenic Covenant....so long ago.



task0778 said:


> FYI:
> 
> Science fiction writers and moviemakers have shown us countless visions of humanity spread out across the Universe, so you might be forgiven for thinking that we’ve already got this in the bag. Unfortunately, we still have more than a few technical limitations to overcome – like the laws of physics as we understand them – before we can start colonising new worlds beyond our Solar System and galaxy.
> 
> ...


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## Montrovant (Feb 21, 2018)

The Original Tree said:


> The biggest Obstacle is actually Death and Time.
> 
> This is why when The End of Days has come, (literally the abolishment of time) and God restores The Earth and Universe, Vanquishing Death & Evil and we then return to The Eternal, that I say The Universe was made for us to Explore and Colonize.
> 
> ...



Can something be eternal if there is no time?


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## Foxfyre (Feb 21, 2018)

Montrovant said:


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That's for sure.  All land area is not equal when it comes to its ability to sustain life.  In Kentucky that has well watered pasture and plenty of it year round, the land can sustain about 1 cow per acre with no supplemental feeding.  On the high desert of New Mexico, the ratio is generally about 12 cows per section or 1 cow for every 60 acres with no supplemental feeding.   In the enormous desert area of ANWR in Alaska there are virtually no resources--little surface water, the land is not arable, little or no wildlife.  Not a place anybody would want to live.  There is probably some oil to be tapped there though.

But if we crowd several billion people into the most hospital places on Earth, all those places will soon be buildings and pavement and that will further deplete the resources we have.  So, I am all in favor of us keeping working on technology for space travel and finding places to move to when we outgrow our wonderful planet.  And considering how quickly we are developing technology now, I won't be at all surprised if that is possible within the next 100 years.


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## task0778 (Feb 21, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


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Terra forming, here on Earth.   I think over the next 100 years we'll be making huge advances in using what is now not arable land into places where wildlife and even humans can exist.   We'll develop edible plants that take in more CO2 and give off more oxygen, and find better ways to turn seawater into fresh, some of it potable.   And at the same time we'll be finding faster and safer ways to travel in space too.   No rush, we'll get there.


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## Montrovant (Feb 21, 2018)

If we need to work on places for a growing population to live, off-planet might also be a possibility in the future.  I don't mean colonizing other planets, I mean massive space stations.  It would require some sort of artificial gravity, but it could end up being easier than attempts to terraform/colonize other worlds.

Of course, I don't think any of this is likely to happen in our lifetimes.  Doing things like finding efficient ways to make seawater potable seem more likely in the short term.


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## Skull Pilot (Feb 21, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


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Or they were forced to learn during warfare.  Or they learned in cooperation because dominating others is their mission.  Or the learned because they trashed their own planet and want another one.

You assume an alien species will have human qualities.

That assumption is dangerous.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 21, 2018)

task0778 said:


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And I think you are right. :}


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## Foxfyre (Feb 21, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


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I assume nothing other than if they wanted our planet, they would now have it;  Or if they intended us harm they already would have harmed us.


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


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Yet some things are almost certainly universal, like math and logic and the laws of nature.


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## Skull Pilot (Feb 22, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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And those have nothing to do with behavior and motivation


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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That does seem logical to us and I am sure there is something in all of us who want that to be so.  But there is also that something in humankind that drives us beyond what we know and understand, to create, innovate, and know what is yet unknown.  And throughout our recorded history, and no doubt before that, we are continually finding out that what we think we know, we didn't know.

Math has long been the means of universal communication utilized by the science fiction writers though, and I doubt any of us will be surprised if that is not the first means of communication with an extraterrestrial species.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


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I would emphatically argue that they do.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 22, 2018)

Montrovant said:


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*Postmodern Fatalism Is an Insult to Intelligence*

All resources are products of the human mind.  Otherwise, they lie idle and useless and are of no value.  "Peak" anything is propaganda from those who want to limit terrestrial development so they can gouge us on prices.  Wasting mental resources on outer-space spectacles is part of that diabolical design.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 22, 2018)

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How many cows can live on Mars?


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> How many cows can live on Mars?


Do you mean today or in the future?  

I've always thought Venus would be a better terraforming target.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


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None.  But visiting Mars would add much to our data base of information as well as expand our technology to make longer, more adventurous space travel more feasible and more safe.  There are some who say why waste time and resources in such a venture that likely won't benefit anybody here and now.  And I say what if all human species had so little curiosity about what was beyond the horizon they could see?  The idea of new possibilities, new adventures, new exploration is exciting to me.  I always wanted to live in the 19th Century when that was happening on a large scale.  And I wish I could live in the 22nd Century when I expect all that to be happening again.


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## Montrovant (Feb 22, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


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And who knows what might be found on Mars to actually benefit humanity now?  That's part of the excitement of exploration.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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> 
> > How many cows can live on Mars?
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I don't know.  The average daytime temperatures on Venus are thought to be 800+ fahrenheit.  That would bar-b-que a steer pretty quickly.   In contrast daytime temperatures on Mars are pretty moderate and we could cope with the minus 100 temperatures at night--far more hospitable than the temperatures on our own moon where there is 400 degrees between light and shadow.


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

Foxfyre said:


> I don't know.  The average daytime temperatures on Venus are thought to be 800+ fahrenheit.  That would bar-b-que a steer pretty quickly.


true enough but we will soon have designer bacteria that can turn CO2 into carbon and oxygen, powered by the sun.  put a small number into the Venusian atmosphere and stand back


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

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I don't know.  The average daytime temperatures on Venus are thought to be 800+ fahrenheit.  That would bar-b-que a steer pretty quickly.   In contrast daytime temperatures on Mars are pretty moderate and we could cope with the minus 100 temperatures at night--far more hospitable than the temperatures on our own moon where there is 400 degrees between light and shadow.


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

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800+ on the surface, much more hospitable at altitude.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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> > I don't know.  The average daytime temperatures on Venus are thought to be 800+ fahrenheit.  That would bar-b-que a steer pretty quickly.
> ...



Hmmm.  That would be intriguing to watch wouldn't it.  All we have to do is determine that there is no sentient life on Venus that we would be interfering with and it could be a really fun experiment.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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I don't know about that.  Anyway, if we're going to go, I want to get down to the surface to see what is really there.


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## task0778 (Feb 22, 2018)

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Yeah but it could be a really long movie.   Took us 3 billion years or so to evolve I think.  I really don't think Venus would be a suitable place for us to colonize.   Mars or a few of those moons around Jupiter or Saturn that might have water might be better choices.


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## Windparadox (Feb 22, 2018)

`
While I like science fiction and am a voracious sponge when it comes to cosmic and/or quantum physics (as far as I can understand it), I give scant thought to sentient beings beyond our own. I like thinking we biped humans are the predominant life form in this galaxy. 
`


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

task0778 said:


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If the bacteria could grow and reproduce exponentially they would remove the majority of the CO2 in a very short time.  Once the greenhouse is under control the planet would be warmer than Mars and have plenty of oxygen derived from the CO2.  Tee shirt and shorts.


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

Windparadox said:


> `
> While I like science fiction and am a voracious sponge when it comes to cosmic and/or quantum physics (as far as I can understand it), I give scant thought to sentient beings beyond our own. I like thinking we biped humans are the predominant life form in this galaxy.
> `


Quite the ego you have there.


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## task0778 (Feb 22, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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Uh-huh.   It might eventually be doable but  I remain a bit skeptical.   Consider this:

_Venus is the hottest world in the solar system. Although Venus is not the planet closest to the sun, its dense atmosphere traps heat in a runaway version of the greenhouse effect that warms Earth. As a result, temperatures on Venus reach 870 degrees Fahrenheit (465 degrees Celsius), more than hot enough to melt lead. Probes that scientists have landed there have survived only a few hours before being destroyed.

Venus has a hellish atmosphere as well, consisting mainly of carbon dioxide with clouds of sulfuric acid, and scientists have only detected trace amounts of water in the atmosphere. The atmosphere is heavier than that of any other planet, leading to a surface pressure 90 times that of Earth. Incredibly, however, early in Venus' history the planet may have been habitable, according to models from NASA researchers at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies. 

The surface of Venus is extremely dry. During its evolution, ultraviolet rays from the sun evaporated water quickly, keeping it in a prolonged molten state. There is no liquid water on its surface today because the scorching heat created by its ozone-filled atmosphere would cause any to boil away. Roughly two-thirds of the Venusian surface is covered by flat, smooth plains that are marred by thousands of volcanoes, some which are still active today, ranging from about 0.5 to 150 miles (0.8 to 240 kilometers) wide, with lava flows carving long, winding canals up to more than 3,000 miles (5,000 km) in length, longer than on any other planet._

Planet Venus Facts: A Hot, Hellish & Volcanic Planet


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

task0778 said:


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The issue is CO2, remove that and the greenhouse effect goes away and viola, you have a much more temperate world.  The sulfuric acid can also be converted to sulfur and O2.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

task0778 said:


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Actually I don't think it likely that there is another hospitable planet/moon/whatever in our solar system.  I think Planet Earth is probably it--uniquely placed at the precisely beneficial distance from the sun and protected from most incoming by the larger planets out there.

That's why when I learned that warp speeds were not only scientifically obtainable but probable at some point in our future, that we would have the capability to explore outside our solar system where other planets more like Earth would likely be.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

alang1216 said:


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It sure would be interesting to find out.


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## task0778 (Feb 22, 2018)

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What about the surface pressure 90 times that of Earth?   And the thousands of volcanoes and lava flows?   Still skeptical.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

task0778 said:


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Very true which is why I think visiting there not a good idea.  However, alang is thinking outside the box in how that hellish world could be altered with the introduction of innovative bacteria, assuming those bacteria could survive those conditions.  In time it could change Venus into a much more hospitable place.  

Meanwhile I hope we keep looking for other "Class M" (Star Trek) planets out there that the next generation or two might have capability to visit.


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## task0778 (Feb 22, 2018)

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Well, I dunno - there's a lot of work going on to build an outpost of some kind on Mars, and some people think we'll have a station there:

_What do we mean when we say an environment is “habitable”? When referring to exoplanets, the term “habitability” is usually equated to whether or not liquid water can exist on the planet’s surface. But that doesn’t always answer the question of whether humans can inhabit a given environment. After all, Earth’s South Pole doesn’t have liquid water on the surface. Neither does low-Earth orbit. Yet resourceful humans have been inhabiting both locations for decades.

What about Mars? Mars is on the outer boundary of our solar system’s habitable zone, and we know what looks like briny, liquid water can exist on the surface for short periods of time. But does that really make Mars habitable? From a practical standpoint, the answer depends on what technologies we bring there to create our own artificial habitable zones on the surface. 

Long-term habitation on Mars will require us to master the conversion of raw Martian materials into resources we can use to survive. Fortunately, Mars has a wealth of these materials, making it arguably the most human-habitable place in the solar system, other than the Earth itself._

Is Mars habitable? With the right technologies, yes

----

Then there's Europa, one of Jupiter's moons:

_NASA scientists believe that one of Jupiter's moons is the most likely place in the universe beyond the Earth that could harbour life.   Europa, the sixth closest moon to the planet, is far more likely to be habitable than desert-covered Mars which has been the focus of recent US exploration, they say.   It's ocean, thin shelf of ice and the presence of oxidants on Europa make it far more likely to be home to a life form than the red planet._

Read more: Jupiter's Europa moon is 'most likely to support life than the deserts of Mars', claim NASA scientists | Daily Mail Online

----

And Enceladus:

_Today Earthlings came one very giant step closer to finding life elsewhere in our solar system. In the final months of its 20-year mission, the spacecraft Cassini delivered its most noteworthy revelation yet: the ocean of Enceladus, a moon of Saturn, is releasing hydrogen, an energy source for some microorganisms. In other words, that ocean is inhabitable. “Enceladus,” says Cornell University astrophysicist Jonathan Lunine, “is the place to go to look for life.” _

_The ocean—made of liquid water and resembling a hybrid of the Atlantic Ocean, a desert mineral lake and the fluid found near hydrothermal vents—covers the entire surface of this moon. A thick shell of ice surrounds the entire body of water, though, leaving it dark and frigid. But something happening inside that ocean is strong enough to break through those miles of ice. At the moon’s southern pole, a geyser-like plume spews water vapor, ice, salt and a mix of gases hundreds of miles into space at a force of 800 miles per hour._

Cassini spacecraft delivers biggest revelation yet: A moon of Saturn is habitable


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## task0778 (Feb 22, 2018)

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Ah yes, cue the music:

Space - the final frontier.   These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise.   Her 5 year mission:  to seek out life and new civilizations.   To boldly go where no man has gone before.


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## alang1216 (Feb 22, 2018)

task0778 said:


> What about the surface pressure 90 times that of Earth?   And the thousands of volcanoes and lava flows?   Still skeptical.


If the CO2 gets replaced by the lighter O2, the pressure will decrease.  As the O2 oxidizes the metals & minerals it will become locked in a solid and the pressure will decrease further.  Same goes for the sulfuric acid.  Since the mass of earth and venus are similar the ultimate atmospheric pressure on venus should approximate that of earth.

There are thousands of volcanoes and lava flows on earth yet we still manage to survive.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

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The possibilities of course are endless.  Certainly if humankind can live quite comfortably for weeks or months in a space station in orbit around the sun, we could build a structure on Mars making lengthy periods of habitation possible, most especially assuming we can acquire speeds to shorten the 150 to 300 day one-way travel period that a trip there now requires.  And since Mars does have a natural gravity, we wouldn't have to compensate for weightlessness there nearly as much as we do in space.

But I don't see Mars as a place to colonize so much as a base for scientific experimentation and explorations and perhaps mining.  We still need to find some Class M planets that humankind would be right at home on.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

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  And they began that trip in the year 2265 or 147 years from now.  Which sounds about right though as fast as we are developing technologically, even though we are still in technological infancy, I think it might not take us all of that time to figure out and develop those technologies.


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## Montrovant (Feb 22, 2018)

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We seem to have hit a bump in technological advancement when it comes to space travel.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

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That's because I think we have elected leaders without a big picture view or without a vision of what could be and they let things like the Hubble or the Space Station or the Shuttle program, etc. die so they can spend money on stuff they think more important but that almost always never is.  Whatever anybody thinks about President Trump, he does have that big picture vision.  And I'm pretty sure if he is able to smooth out the bumps he has encountered in his first year and gets things running smoothly and on track so that the economy and treasury is healthy again, we will see him push those programs.


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## task0778 (Feb 22, 2018)

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Oh, I dunno, have you read or heard about the SpaceX Falcon Heavy rocket that blasted off last month and put a Tesla auto in orbit and a couple of satellites too?   The Falcon is the biggest and most powerful rocket ever built and can launch larger payloads into space than previously possible.   I do not doubt that there have been and will be other advances in space technology that aren't as publicized.


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## Montrovant (Feb 22, 2018)

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I'm hoping that the private enterprises get things going.  NASA, however, hasn't seemed to create much in the way of new space technology in decades.  We were using the space shuttle program for far longer than it was supposed to be used.  

I feel that the push for space travel/exploration peaked when we went to the moon, then started a decline that never really leveled off.  People in the US just don't seem all that interested in space travel in general, although of course there are exceptions.  

Of course, other nations may pick up some of the slack.  I wouldn't be surprised to see India or China doing interesting things with space travel in the not-too-distant future, although I have no idea if those are things those societies are interested in.  

If Elon Musk can get humanity doing more serious space exploration, more power to him!


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## Foxfyre (Feb 22, 2018)

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The guy at the top though has a tremendous amount to do with what the agencies that serve under him do or don't accomplish for good or bad.  So when you have a Bill Clinton or a George W. Bush or a Barack Obama who could care less about innovation or advancement of scientific achievement, and most especially when there is disinterest in funding it, we aren't going to see much progress.

I am all for the peaceful nations of the working together on such projects, as well as teaming up with the private sector, but I sure don't want to see America hand over their own progress for others to do either.


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## toobfreak (Feb 22, 2018)

Robert_Stephens said:


> 1. Our sun is a class C type star and is found to be the most common star type in the cosmos.



WRONG.  The Sun is a type G4 (now called a GV) star according to the Hertzsprung-Russel classification of the Main Sequence of Stellar Evolution.  The colour-class (or colour-temp is read across the bottom (OBAFGKM)

What Type of Star is Our Sun?

There isn't even a "Class C" star I ever heard of.  And the most common stars out there (in sheer number) are called Brown Dwarfs.  The Sun isn't a brown dwarf.



> 2. These star types tend to be the most stable and longest lived.



A star like the Sun is long lived.  That is mainly a function of their mass / rate of hydrogen burning.  Small cooler stars like Brown Dwarfs last much longer.



> 3. They last upwards of 6 billion years.



The Sun is already over 4.6 billion years old and has several more billion years before it eventually begins to swell into a red giant and eventual planetary nebula.  Just why do you post about things you know nothing about?



> 4. They have multiple planets, with at least one in the "Goldilocks Zone", where liquid water is present on the surface, thus the right distance from the home star.



PURE RUBBISH.  Every star is a unique case and of the hundreds (thousands?) of extra-solar planets detected thus far, NONE of them have been similar to our solar system, and only a couple have had planets which might even remotely be in a state where earth-type life might be able to live.



> 5. And on carbon based planets, this is the condition for life, as we know it.



"Carbon-based planet?"  No planet is carbon based;  they are based on rock, silica, iron, etc.  They may have carbon in them and carbon is but a trace element in the Earth.  If you want a carbon-based "planet," look to a white dwarf star (like Sirius) which is essentially a collapsed dead star about the size of the Earth, essentially solid diamond (pure carbon).  But good luck walking on it. I think you were meaning to say carbon-based LIFE, which is the only kind of life we know of for sure.



> Further, like the movie, _"Start Trek: First Contact"_, we are going to leave our home place. We will do so when we have developed something that is SoL+ or, a WARP drive if you will. From that, we are free.



All you need to do then is violate the physical laws of the universe.



> And, aside from the darker psychopaths that post on all these myriad of boards to the contrary, NASA and all other space agencies around the planet is pushing the technology to "see" out there what is there. And it reasons well, if we are not alone, others out there are doing the same, looking back.



It all depends on what you call life.  If you mean biota like singled celled chemoautotrophs, then yes, the chances are good such life exists in one or more other places in this solar system.  If you mean intelligent, sentient, advanced lifeforms like us capable of developing civilizations and technology, the chances are VERY THIN of us ever finding it.  Even with faster than light travel, the number of places suitable for such life to develop X the length of time such civilizations last X the age of the universe make it a highly statistically unlikely chance of there being many other civilizations out there at the same time as us.  But are they out there, somewhere?  I would say yes.


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## alang1216 (Feb 23, 2018)

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I think you're right, Mars has little to offer since we'd never walk its surface with a space suit.  If we're going to do that we might as well stay in space and use asteroids for raw materials and not fight Mars gravity well.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 23, 2018)

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I think you misunderstood what I said though.  I could see purpose in a permanent scientific research base on Mars, possibilities if Mars has critical elements to mine, etc.   I just don't see it as a permanent habitat for humankind.


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## Montrovant (Feb 23, 2018)

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It will probably depend on a few different things.  Can Mars be terraformed to be human-friendly?  Will other bodies in our solar system (like the moons of Jupiter, for instance) prove to be more easily adapted to human habitation?  How long will it be before humanity is capable of interstellar travel in a reasonable time frame?  Will population continue to increase, or will there come a point (perhaps due to technology) at which population starts to decrease, making the desire to settle elsewhere less pressing?


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 23, 2018)

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*Terraform Terra Firma
*

Your depressed escapism is in no way similar to the exploration of our own planet, which we still have barely scratched the surface of.  We have lost our way, so we wander into fantasies.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 23, 2018)

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Excitement doesn't produce anything but premature ejaculation.


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## alang1216 (Feb 23, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> [Will population continue to increase, or will there come a point (perhaps due to technology) at which population starts to decrease, making the desire to settle elsewhere less pressing?


I think we'll slowly explore but the driving force behind colonization will be religion.  Like the Puritans and Mormons, there will be a cult that wants to be free to practice without constraints.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Feb 23, 2018)

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*The Earth Shatnered Upon*

You're programmed to take it for granted that Antarctica, which has a land mass as big as the contiguous 48 states, has forever reached the peak of its development.  Yet NA$A's Martian fantasy would require the same kind of technology that would let 300 million people live in Antarctica, at a fraction of the cost.


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## alang1216 (Feb 23, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *The Earth Shatnered Upon*
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> You're programmed to take it for granted that Antarctica, which has a land mass as big as the contiguous 48 states, has forever reached the peak of its development.  Yet NA$A's Martian fantasy would require the same kind of technology that would let 300 million people live in Antarctica, at a fraction of the cost.


Antarctica will probably never be self sufficient unless it contains nuclear fuel sources and that is the independence a cult would require.  It doesn't matter anyway, religions don't have practical goals.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 23, 2018)

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No Mars cannot be transformed into being human friendly any more than humans are capable of changing the timeless characteristics of our own planet.  But unless there are unknown properties there that would make it harmful or deadly to humans present there--unlikely--I can see it as suitable for a base for scientific research and possibly mining.  Certainly establishing a protective cocoon there would be no more difficult than building and maintaining a large scientific laboratory in space which has already been done.

As for the distance problem, now that we know how warp speeds can be accomplished, we only need to figure out how to develop the  technology to do it.  At half pulse--half warp speed--it would take about 10 minutes to travel between Earth and Mars while it now takes us three days to reach the moon with our current technological abilities.  I wouldn't be surprised if we haven't figured it how to do that within the next 25 to 50 years, probably a bit longer to build the prototype that would actually accomplish it.

And I do envision space vehicles that won't need hugely expensive enormous rockets and projects to launch them into space but will be able to come and go from Earth as easily as a helicopter now travels from city to city.

Once we can do that, traveling to and from the space station will be no more of a project than my getting to the grocery store now in heavy Albuquerque traffic.   But for now just imagine the incredible amount of know how it took to put the ISS out there and getting to and from it to even build it.  It is such a tiny speck out there in an unimaginable vastness and it is moving at 17,500 miles per hour making figuratively chasing it down and actually docking with it a major scientific marvel.  And I think it is but an early baby step what we will be able to do to achieve even greater more wonderful things.

Too often folks tend to think the science we know is all that we will ever know.  I think we know only a teensy fraction of all the science there is to yet learn, to know.


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## task0778 (Feb 23, 2018)

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Depends on what you call practical.  You said it yourself in #376, they want to be free to practice their religion free from restraints.   Sounds practical to me, nor would I classify any and all religions as a "cult".   Which is an attempt on your part to demagogue all of them, not cool.

Bottom line in all this, as a species we ARE going to eventually build colonies on other worlds, moons, whatever.   The time frame is up for debate, there's no telling cuz we got too many factors to resolve before it becomes possible or feasible.   But it IS going to happen, and right now the odds on favorite for numero uno place is Mars.   Maybe our own moon as a staging area.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 23, 2018)

One more thought before I have to utilize modern technology to get me to the grocery store--I wish we could improve on that  -- the first man made object to make it into space was believed to be a German V-2 rocket in 1917.  That certainly put the many more seeds of curiosity and possibility into human minds.

It would take 40 more years (1957) before humankind would be able to put Sputnik into space and the space race for military supremacy/equity was on.  It took only 11 years before Apollo 8, with humans on board, orbited the moon 1968 and in 1969 Neil Armstrong was the first man to walk on the moon.  And we humans had also evolved to the point that at least us Americans were determined that space be neutral, peaceful, and unmilitarized which gives me much hope for future space exploration as well.

So if it took us a short half century to get from that first relatively primitive rocket launch to putting a man on the moon, and considering all the amazing technology accomplished in the half century since then, just imagine what we can/will accomplish in the next 50 years.


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## alang1216 (Feb 23, 2018)

task0778 said:


> Depends on what you call practical.  You said it yourself in #376, they want to be free to practice their religion free from restraints.   Sounds practical to me, nor would I classify any and all religions as a "cult".   Which is an attempt on your part to demagogue all of them, not cool.


You can define 'practical' however you want but I was using 'cult' correctly, IMHO, and was not demeaning either.  All religions begin as cults.  All cults become religions or disappear.  Cults are begun by a single individual, in my examples, Jesus and John Smith.  You have to join a cult, you're (almost always) born into a religion.


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## Montrovant (Feb 23, 2018)

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Mars cannot be terraformed with current technology.  With current technology, there is nowhere other than Earth for large amounts of people to live.  I thought the whole point of this conversation was speculating about possibilities.    I certainly don't think discussing the possibility of terraforming is any more strange than discussing travel with warp speed.


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## Foxfyre (Feb 23, 2018)

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We know we can achieve warp speeds.  We just haven't developed the technology that will allow people to do it yet.  I don't think we will ever develop technology that will allow us to effectively terraform on any large scale.  I hope and pray that we never do   because it would be such a terrible weapon in the hands of those with evil purposes.


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## task0778 (Feb 23, 2018)

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*"We know we can achieve warp speeds."*

Uh, wait a minute, if we have not yet developed the technology yet to do it then how do we know we can achieve it?   How about "we believe we can eventually achieve warp speeds.".


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## Foxfyre (Feb 23, 2018)

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I go back to the documentary movie "Space" that we recently saw at the Museum of Science and Natural History here.  While doing a recap of what we have been able to learn and accomplish re space so far, they also showed us what the vision of the future would be.  And one of those visions, complete with illustrations, was how warp speeds would/could be accomplished.   The laws of physics have always included electricity, radio waves, light waves, ability to transmit sound and pictures over the entire Earth and even from the surface of the moon.  Such things were very poorly understood or even unknown all the way into the Renaissance, the Reformation, and beyond.  But once humankind can envision and begin to understand it, some humans will relentlessly devote massive time and energy to figure out how to prove/solve/invent/or utilize it and eventually they always do.  You can be sure that the ideas and suggestions for prototypes for warp speed machines and capabilities are already on the designers tables.  And I would lay odds that within the next 25 to 50 years, they'll figure out how to build one.


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## task0778 (Feb 23, 2018)

From the link below.   It's a year old, and indicates that while warp speeds may be theoretically possible, right now we don't know how to do it.   Yet.   Sorry Foxy, but I'm not seeing this as a done deal within the next 50 years, it takes one heck of a lot of power to do this stuff even if we did know what/how to do it.   It starts out talking about Star Trek:

_
One of the most important technologies that Federation ships are equipped with is the warp engine. This engine, fueled by Dilithium crystals, allows spaceships to travel at phenomenal speeds and visit worlds that are many light-years from Earth. The speed is FTL, or Faster Than Light, and there are theories behind whether or not it is achievable. Einstein said no, as nothing with mass can travel faster than the speed of light. My understanding of Star Trek warp speed is that it follows the Alcubierre theory on FTL travel, where an object inside a bubble that is moving at the speed of light is not actually moving. If the space-time is collapsed in front of the bubble, then the bubble, including the ship, passes through quicker than the speed of light. This makes sense to me as the often talk of a warp field around the ship when the ship is travelling at this speed.

I don’t think Einstein and Alcubierre ever met, because I think they would have had a rather big disagreement. In Einstein’s celebrated work, the Special Theory of Relativity, he fervently implied that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. If we are ever going to get to another world outside of our own solar system, we are going to need Einstein to be wrong, for once. Alcubierre was a Mexican physicist who stated that fabric of space-time could be stretched and moved, allowing an object to pass through at faster than the speed of light. For Star Trek to happen in real life, we need this dude to be correct.

Alcubierre Theory:
To put it simply, this method of space travel involves stretching the fabric of space-time in a wave which would (in theory) cause the space ahead of an object to contract while the space behind it would expand. An object inside this wave (i.e. a spaceship) would then be able to ride this region, known as a “warp bubble” of flat space. This is what is known as the “Alcubierre Metric.” Interpreted in the context of General Relativity, the metric allows a warp bubble to appear in a previously flat region of space-time and move away, effectively at speeds that exceed the speed of light. The interior of the bubble is the inertial reference frame for any object inhabiting it.

Einstein might have disagreed with the theory, but there is a way that they can both be right. Considering that the region of space is moving, and not the ship itself, normal conventions would not apply. Time dilation doesn’t happen and as such, no breaks in the rulebook of space-time and the laws of relativity would have been made. Everyone would be happy campers.


The Problem:
The Alcubierre drive remains a theory for a very good reason. The reason that we haven’t tested and confirmed the theory yet is that we can’t. _*We don’t actually have a way of creating the bubble that would be needed for FTL travel. There are also no known ways to create a warp bubble, but if anyone knows please give me a call and we can go from there.*
_
The Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project (BPP) was created by NASA to research and develop methods of getting ships to incredible speeds. Unfortunately they made very little progress and as such, the funding was cut. They broke away and created the Tau Zero Foundation which concentrates on studying theories of interstellar travel. NASA announced back in 2012 that they were researching warp drive and hoping to determine whether or not it was possible. They continued on the work done by Alcubierre and projected the possible effects of expanding and contracting space-time.

 “We’ve initiated an interferometer test bed in this lab, where we’re going to go through and try and generate a microscopic instance of a little warp bubble. And although this is just a microscopic instance of the phenomena, we’re perturbing space time, one part in 10 million, a very tiny amount… The math would allow you to go to Alpha Centauri in two weeks as measured by clocks here on Earth. So somebody’s clock onboard the spacecraft has the same rate of time as somebody in mission control here in Houston might have. There are no tidal forces, no undue issues, and the proper acceleration is zero. When you turn the field on, everybody doesn’t go slamming against the bulkhead, (which) would be a very short and sad trip.” – Dr. Harold Sonny White – NASA researcher
*
The results of the tests were inconclusive and researchers gave opposing theories and suggestions as to what happened and whether it could be done.*

Conclusion
Unfortunately warp drive will remain a theory for a while yet. The brightest minds on the planet have yet to prove that it is even possible, despite several theories giving suggestions on how to do it. We have a strong theory from Alcubierre, and an opposing argument from Einstein.

Warp Speed: What Is It And Will It Ever Be Possible?_


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## Foxfyre (Feb 24, 2018)

task0778 said:


> From the link below.   It's a year old, and indicates that while warp speeds may be theoretically possible, right now we don't know how to do it.   Yet.   Sorry Foxy, but I'm not seeing this as a done deal within the next 50 years, it takes one heck of a lot of power to do this stuff even if we did know what/how to do it.   It starts out talking about Star Trek:
> 
> _
> One of the most important technologies that Federation ships are equipped with is the warp engine. This engine, fueled by Dilithium crystals, allows spaceships to travel at phenomenal speeds and visit worlds that are many light-years from Earth. The speed is FTL, or Faster Than Light, and there are theories behind whether or not it is achievable. Einstein said no, as nothing with mass can travel faster than the speed of light. My understanding of Star Trek warp speed is that it follows the Alcubierre theory on FTL travel, where an object inside a bubble that is moving at the speed of light is not actually moving. If the space-time is collapsed in front of the bubble, then the bubble, including the ship, passes through quicker than the speed of light. This makes sense to me as the often talk of a warp field around the ship when the ship is travelling at this speed.
> ...



I have probably lived quite a bit longer than you and have watched human creativity and determination do the impossible a lot longer than you.  I have watched the world so dramatically change over my lifetime that I no longer consider anything worthwhile as impossible.

I still remember Jim Lovell's line when leading a tour of NASA citing all the technological wonders on the horizon such as 'a computer that can fit into a single room.'  Even he had not yet envisioned the small compact PC that sits on my desk and has more computing power and capability than any computer that existed in 1970.


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