# What Would You Do? (Education)



## Spare_change (Dec 17, 2016)

The time has come.

It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.

Lesson 1. Education

What would you do to turn around our obviously malfunctioning education system?

All options are on the table --- what's your recommendations?


_*(Yes, I have some ideas ... but I'm going to read yours first. If they're good, I'm going to claim them as my own!!)*_


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## ding (Dec 17, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> The time has come.
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> It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.
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If you want to improve public education fire the under performing teachers. The remaining ones will get the hint. Then... flunk out the under performing students. The remaining ones will get the hint too. Teaching and schooling are not for everyone.


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## TheOldSchool (Dec 17, 2016)

ding said:


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They can work our sweatshops and labor camps, and Trump can claim he brought the jobs back and made America great again


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## ding (Dec 17, 2016)

TheOldSchool said:


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There might be an opening for you.  Do you want me to check for you?


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## Spare_change (Dec 17, 2016)

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TheOldSchool said:


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How about we try to stay on subject?


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## Spare_change (Dec 17, 2016)

ding said:


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So, I would assume that means you need to have some specific criteria to determine under-performing teachers. A Common Core fan?


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## ding (Dec 17, 2016)

Spare_change said:


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Actually I don't know much about common core except my wife hates it so I must hate it too, lol.  Criteria is hard to define.  I know good when I see it.  I don't know if I can put it down in black and white.  I believe that we need to raise the expectations of the kids performance as well and hold them to a higher standard too.  This doesn't rest solely on the shoulders of the teachers.  I always thought that education did a poor job of breaking down what they taught in simple to learn ways.  Most kids won't speak up if they don't get it.  They are too embarrassed to say so.  My approach would be to teach a concept in a systematic way and then show the students all the way that teachers try to trick them with their tests.  It isn't teaching test taking so much as it is teaching them different ways of looking at the same thing.  It will be up to the teacher to make sure they grasp if they understand it or are just going through the motions.  Get rid of the kids that don't want to be there.  I know it sounds harsh, but it really will work.  It is human nature to seek the path of least resistance.  They will rise to the level we set but only if we are clear about the expectation and are serious in making sure they learn the lesson.  We won't get what we expect.  We will only get what we inspect.


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## The Irish Ram (Dec 17, 2016)

Scrap Common Core immediately.  Go find the smartest kids in the world, and who is producing them,  and copy their curriculum, plus college level classes in high school.  What ever the smartest are doing we need to one up them. We need to be the smartest, the strongest, the fastest, the most courageous, the most compassionate,  the best this world has ever seen.


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

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Under the guise of establishing common standards across the states (NY children should be educated about the same things as Iowa children), the federal government created Common Core.

Unfortunately, like the best laid plans of men and mice, the program quickly went astray. The federal government quickly realized that this was a great tool to usurp the local control of education. (If you don't meet our federal standards, you don't get our federal money). 

In addition, the teacher's unions opposed it because it gave a ready yardstick to measure teacher performance (if your kids don't learn, you get fired). Naturally, the union opposed anything that threatened some part of their membership. As a result, we have too many teachers that are incompetent, but are not removed from the classroom because there is no measurable justification that will stand up in court. 

I think the original concept of Common Core was a good idea ---- measure the quality of education by measuring the education of the children. Seemed logical to me. Unfortunately, politics destroyed it.


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

I just read a recent article in the NY Times bemoaning the fact that only 8% of teachers in NYC are men of color. They called for this to be immediately addressed.

When the color of a person's skin is more important than the quality of teaching he provides, I would suggest our priorities are out of order.


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

Spare_change said:


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Big surprise.


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Scrap Common Core immediately.  Go find the smartest kids in the world, and who is producing them,  and copy their curriculum, plus college level classes in high school.  What ever the smartest are doing we need to one up them. We need to be the smartest, the strongest, the fastest, the most courageous, the most compassionate,  the best this world has ever seen.




You're right .... but, are we willing to have our kids go to school 10 hours a day, all year long? Are we willing to give our students a test in the 6th grade, and tell some that they are not going to be allowed into college, but rather have to learn a vocational skill? Are we willing to scrap the 'feel good' classes and concentrate our funding, and talent, on the core curriculum? Are you willing to tell your daughter she isn't smart enough to be a ballerina, or a rocket scientist?

How do we standardize schools so everyone gets an equal opportunity?


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

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Excellent --- I think it makes a strong case for local control of education. 

But then, you have the question of standardization across communities. Or, do you ignore that, knowing that the school system will adapt in order to produce quality citizens?


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## Unkotare (Dec 18, 2016)

So much facepalm here.


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> So much facepalm here.



Great input. We'll give it the consideration it deserves.


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## Unkotare (Dec 18, 2016)

ding said:


> ...... flunk out the under performing students. .....





Give up on the students who need the most help? What a pussy quitter attitude.


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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No.  Set standards and hold people accountable.


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## Unkotare (Dec 18, 2016)

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Kicking out the students who need help the most is quitting on them. The attitude of a quitter and a loser.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 18, 2016)

We need waaaaaaayyyy more technical high schools... 


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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You do realize that that is the option of last resort, don't you?


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## boedicca (Dec 18, 2016)

1.  Get rid of the Department of Education and return funding to the states.

2.  Get of teachers' unions which use dues to funnel contributions to the Dems who then in turn reward them with excessive benefits and protections at the expense of students.

3.  Per pupil funding to be directed to the school of choice by parents, including parochial, charter, private or homeschooling.

4.  Return control to local community school boards accountable to parents.


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## Unkotare (Dec 18, 2016)

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I don't think you realize why teachers teach.


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## Coyote (Dec 18, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> The time has come.
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> It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.
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Give it more local control.  Every jurisdiction is different.


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## Coyote (Dec 18, 2016)

Tax payer money should not be used to pay for private schools or religious schools.  

In order to fire "under performing" teachers - you have to have a metric by which to rate them.  What would that be?


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## Moonglow (Dec 18, 2016)

Ever thought that maybe it's not the school system but the kids themselves?


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## Coyote (Dec 18, 2016)

Moonglow said:


> Ever thought that maybe it's not the school system but the kids themselves?



Academic success is dependent on so many variables, more than just the teachers.  You have the financial resources of the district, the famlies of the children, their home life often enters into it.  Kids can't learn if they're cold, hungry, afraid. Teachers can't teach if they have no means to instill discipline or there is no support from the parents.  Violence can be a big factor in some schools.  

I know too many teachers who have provided the "extras" for their students out of their own pockets, because they care about their profession and pupils.  I get so sick of teachers being disrespected and dumped on.


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## Moonglow (Dec 18, 2016)

I made, and still do, my kids learn at home just as much as what they did at school...


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Tax payer money should not be used to pay for private schools or religious schools.
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> In order to fire "under performing" teachers - you have to have a metric by which to rate them.  What would that be?


Why?  Isn't it to society's benefit to have well educated citizens?  Isn't it Darwinian to have competition? Evolve or die works at every level of society, even public schools.  

Why I’m a Public-School Teacher But a Private-School Parent


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## Coyote (Dec 18, 2016)

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Our country guarantees a free education, paid for through our taxes.  I fully support that.  I fully support doing whatever we can to improve that public school system and make it the best it can be.  But we don't guarantee a Harvard education.  Public money that goes to private schools is public money that is taken away from the public school system.  Private schools aren't across the board better than public schools - they vary, just like public schools.  Private schools also can succeed in large part because they can control classroom size, they can pick and choose the students they take.  Public schools must take all student in their jurisdiction.  

My tax money should not be paying for private religious schools.  Parents HAVE school choice - nothing stops them from sending their kids to private schools if they can afford it.  It's like anything else in life.


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

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If it improves performance why would you care?


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## Coyote (Dec 18, 2016)

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I stated "why" already.


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

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Right but your reason assumes equal results.  If that were the only way to raise performance would you still oppose it?


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## Coyote (Dec 18, 2016)

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Yes.  Because I don't believe that is the "only way".  If the private school model (and there isn't even just one) is the means to better performance - then let's shape our public schools to that model, not let them die.  Personally, I think giving more community control, downsizing classroom size a great deal, and allowing teachers to be more innovative and creative is a far better idea.


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

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That's the point.  They have no reason to change.  Give them a reason to change.


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## Coyote (Dec 18, 2016)

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I think they have reason to change, but they are stifled in bureacracy.  There have been good innovative ideas that are successful, like magnet schools.  Funneling money into private education is not going to make them change, it will make it harder for them to change.  I also don't think tax payers should fund religious enterprises.


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## Alex. (Dec 18, 2016)

I am very proactive and involved in my son's education. To leave it up to teachers is a disservice to my boy.


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## ding (Dec 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


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They won't change until their existence is threatened.


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

bear513 said:


> We need waaaaaaayyyy more technical high schools...
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Do you believe in dual tracking (one for college and one for vocational school)? When should the split happen? How would you feel if your child was told they aren't smart enough for college?


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

Alex. said:


> I am very proactive and involved in my son's education. To leave it up to teachers is a disservice to my boy.




BINGO!!!!

Your son is a lucky boy.


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

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How do you feel about vouchers? School choice? Parochial schools? Home schooling?


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## Spare_change (Dec 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Tax payer money should not be used to pay for private schools or religious schools.
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That was supposed to be one of the goals of Common Core - we see how well that went.

Even if you were to establish some metric methodology, doesn't local control negate standardization?


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

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I disagree.  It's not as simple as that - specifically, the reasons for failing in those schools that are failing are diverse.  It's why just throwing money at it doesn't solve the problem and likewise, taking money away doesn't solve anything either.


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

Spare_change said:


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You can have a degree of standardization from the federal level - there's always been in terms of the general subjects taught etc.  But now they're forced to teach to the test and that is destructive both to learning and the teacher's ability to teach.


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

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I feel that parents have every right to choose what ever accredited school they want.  But I do not believe we, the taxpayers should pay for it. I oppose vouchers for a variety of reasons.  People should not be forced to subsidize private for-profit or religious schools.  Taking money away from the public school system only makes the problem worse and leaves those students stuck in the system worse off.  Private schools don't have to take everyone - they can pick and choose from the best if they want.  Vouchers also don't help many families - they don't pay for the entire cost, they don't cover transportation, they don't work when there are no private schools in a reasonable distance or for parents that don't have transport options where there might be a private school.  It subsidizes a few at the expense of others.


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## ding (Dec 19, 2016)

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You would be surprised how much that would do.


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## Unkotare (Dec 19, 2016)

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How would you know?


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## ding (Dec 19, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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Because it is Darwinian.


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## Unkotare (Dec 19, 2016)

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There is something about the topic of education that seems to encourage people with no basis in education or experience to just pull 'certainties' out of their asses and pretend they know what they are talking about.


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## ding (Dec 19, 2016)

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Then you shouldn't do that.


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## rdean (Dec 19, 2016)

I've heard Republicans go on and on about Common Core so I go look it up.  This if from the Common Core website:

About the Standards			| Common Core State Standards Initiative

Recognizing the value and need for consistent learning goals across states, in 2009 the state school chiefs and governors that comprise CCSSO and the NGA Center coordinated a state-led effort to develop the Common Core State Standards. Designed through collaboration among teachers, school chiefs, administrators, and other experts, the standards provide a clear and consistent framework for educators.

The Common Core is informed by the highest, most effective standards from states across the United States and countries around the world. *The standards define the knowledge and skills students should gain throughout their K-12 education in order to graduate high school prepared to succeed in entry-level careers, introductory academic college courses, and workforce training programs.*

The standards are:


Research- and evidence-based
Clear, understandable, and consistent
Aligned with college and career expectations
Based on rigorous content and application of knowledge through higher-order thinking skills
Built upon the strengths and lessons of current state standards
Informed by other top performing countries in order to prepare all students for success in our global economy and society
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So why are Republicans so against common core?  One of the biggest reasons is ignorance.  And that ignorance takes many forms.

For instance, here is a thread I started back on May 1st when a Republican congressman referred to algebra as "fuzzy math" for using letters.

Republican calls algebra "fuzzy math" for using letters with numbers.

How many Republicans have even read what Common Core is all about?  

Ding wrote:  Actually I don't know much about common core except my wife hates it so I must hate it too, lol. 

The Iris Ram wrote:   Go find the smartest kids in the world, and who is producing them, and copy their curriculum, plus college level classes in high school.

Which is pretty much what they did.


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## rdean (Dec 19, 2016)

Ever wonder why foreign students, at great cost flock to US schools?

Number Of International Students In The US Up Nearly 10 Percent In 2015

Record number of international students studying in U.S.

Republicans think US schools are the worst in the world.  The rest of the world thinks US schools are the best in the world.  Come on.  In the last 40 years, what have Republicans ever been right about?  I'm talking policies they have passed that affects the country.  Not "talking points".

Believe it or not, many foreigners send their kids here for High School, not just college:

http://www.usnews.com/education/hig...for-international-students-at-us-high-schools







Hilarious.  It almost looks like our election map.  Gee.  I wonder why?


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

Spare_change said:


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Not a bad idea.  Not every child is meant to be a doctor.  Some are meant to be bakers, plumbers, etc.  Being a ballerina doesn't require a lot of intelligence, but talent in an entirely different, physical way.  One-sized-fits-all education is a losing proposition for everyone.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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Speaking as a teacher, I don't think you do.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

Moonglow said:


> Ever thought that maybe it's not the school system but the kids themselves?


Actually not the kids, but specifically, the parents.  Just because you can spawn a fuck-trophy doesn't make you a parent.  Too many parents could give a flying f**k about how their children perform in school, or otherwise.


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

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So, let's carry your idea a bit further .... 

Let's assume that Common Core is killed (a safe bet, I think). The local school board, however, establishes minimum standards of performance for the teachers - to be determined by testing the quality of the product delivered.

Don't the teachers still "teach the test" in order to protect their jobs and their income?

So - to carry your thought out ----- the school board says "we're not going to give you measurable standards, do the best you can, and we'll decide whether it's good enough or not." What kind of education does THAT produce? How does a school board get rid of a non-performing teacher? What proof do they have in a wrongful termination lawsuit?

How do you, as a school board member and a lay person, recognize a teacher who is underperforming? How do you know when your child is not getting a quality education?


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

gallantwarrior said:


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I agree, BUT ....

Does that make it the responsibility of the government to ensure that the student gets a quality education, no matter the parent's involvement?? Does that mean that the government should usurp the rights of the parent to be involved? Should we just take the responsibility for educating our children away from parents and get it over with?


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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First, we have to eliminate the "smart enough for college" bullshit.  Loads of college educated morons would be completely incapable of doing trade-related jobs.  So telling children they are "not smart enough for college" is a disservice to most people who are better suited to trade-related professions.  In Europe, the split occurs at about 14 yrs old, or where Jr. High splits into High School.  At that point, children (or their families) decide a child should pursue a trade-related profession or pursue academic interests.  Too bad that we have decided here (the US) that no one has a future unless they have a college (university) degree.  Of course, unions have a very different role across the water, too.


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## rdean (Dec 19, 2016)

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Which is what Obama proposed.  He talked about the benefits for education and went on to great lengths to explain training as a machinist which is the purpose of an apprenticeship and other apprenticeships includes plumbers and carpenters and so on.  Any of those can be a great living. 

So what did Republicans do?


For the record, Obama said he wanted everyone in America to have an education.

Hillary and Bernie ran on making college affordable.  Bernie kept saying "free" which is unrealistic.  Hillary outlined many ways to pay that wouldn't leave you in debt for decades.  Any of those can make a great living.

So what did Republicans do?  They gave us Trump.  What is Trump's college plan?  He knew better than run on anything college because we know what Republicans think of college.  Listen to Santorum.


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

rdean said:


> I've heard Republicans go on and on about Common Core so I go look it up.  This if from the Common Core website:
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The problem is not with the baseline concept of Common Core.The problem is in the implementation. 

Common Core is, now, nothing more than a naked power grab by the federal government to take over control of education at all levels. When they tried to make federal funding contingent on CC compliance, they completely corrupted the original intent. 

Further, CC has focused pressure on teachers to perform to a  pre-determined level. This, obviously, greatly offends teachers' unions, and threatens every teacher (no matter how good they are).


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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My initial response is, the parents are responsible.  But if the government assumes such responsibility, shouldn't there be government sponsored, and funded, facilities to house and educate those children whose parents prove incapable of supporting education?


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## rdean (Dec 19, 2016)

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I don't understand the question.  It's not illegal to home school. If parents want to send their children to public schools, they don't have the right to tell the teachers to teach "Noah's Ark" as history and "Magical Creation" in place of evolution.


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

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But you can't have it both ways .... you can't say people have the freedom of school choice, but that they must subsidize substandard schools (through taxes) while paying for educational excellence (out of pocket). 

If I remove 10 students from your school, why should you get money to teach those 10 students? Shouldn't the money dedicated to the education of the 10 students go with the 10 students?


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

Spare_change said:


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I live in Alaska where the implementation of CC is absolutely untenable.  Every community should determine what is best to accomplish the educational needs of that community.  Allowing the feds to determine what constitutes an appropriate education ignores local needs and desires.


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 19, 2016)

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Why would promote having apprentices in carpentry or plumbing?  Heck all the illegals your ilk let in squashed those wages to $14bucks an hour on average. 

Those skills in the 80s and before would pay around an average of $20 bucks an hour in today's money with benefits. 

Another reason why democrats lost being so out of touch with today's workers 
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## rdean (Dec 19, 2016)

rdean said:


> Ever wonder why foreign students, at great cost flock to US schools?
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> Number Of International Students In The US Up Nearly 10 Percent In 2015
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Republicans constantly down US education, but will never, ever answer the question about why foreign students flock here for American Education.  Considered the best in the world by the rest of the world.  The people in the grey states insist education is no good.  The other states?  Not so much.  Why is that?  How come they won't answer this question?


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

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I use the term "not smart enough for college" not to demean those who shouldn't attend college, but rather simply to differentiate between the two classes of students. No offense was meant.

"In Europe, the split occurs at about 14 years old ... " Who makes the determination? Who decides which path? Do they allow the government to determine the child's future? Or, as we do here, do they allow misinformed, misled parents to decide?

So, you agree? Making college "more affordable" will only result in burger flippers with college degrees?


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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Would you translate that into proper English, please?


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## Wyatt earp (Dec 19, 2016)

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How much you going to pay me?

BTW get a fucking job , you have waaaayyy to much time on your hands nit picking spelling and grammar


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

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Mighty dangerous road you're suggesting there .... 

That is my point --- at what point does the parent lose his right to determine the quality and quantity of education for his/her child? At what point does the government "know best"?

Seriously, though, don't you think that the government has already assumed such responsibility, that the schools have usurped the responsibility of the parents, not only to define the type and methodology by which the children will be taught, but also to what level, and even to the point of educating social mores, etc?

That sounds mightily like surrogate parenting to me.


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

rdean said:


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I think you're avoiding the socioeconomic advantages of an American education. They come here, not because the quality of education is better, but because it gives their children entree into the driving forces of economy, connects them with the inner circle of movers and shakers.


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## rdean (Dec 19, 2016)

bear513 said:


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Depends on where.  When I hire a plumber, I go to a company where the work is guaranteed.   The only time I hired people that were possibly not legal was the cement poured in my back yard.  I contacted three or four companies.  The job was too small.  They wouldn't even come out and look.  I was walking down the street and there were some Hispanics putting in a walkway.  I asked for their card.  They showed up the next day and gave an estimate.  Three days later I had my patio.  True story.

I had two furnaces installed.  I would never, ever ask anyone but the qualified.  The only issues I had was one of the guys backed into my fence gate and broke a hinge.  He was a white American guy.  They fixed it.


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## rdean (Dec 19, 2016)

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So they come here for a crappy education but make connections?

That sounds seriously crazy to me.


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

rdean said:


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Why not? If we are going to make parents responsible for the education of their children, why don't they get to define what the child learns? If the public school isn't going to educate the child in the manner the parent wants, doesn't he have a right to withdraw both his student AND his tax support?


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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I'm not sure why the split occurs at that age.  Perhaps the end of primary education?  Those who chose academia continue so, those who chose a trade move on in that direction.  Most trades provide both trade-specific academics and practical training.   The conclusion of apprenticeship training results in a tradesman certification which may proceed to a master's certification, eventually. Many jobs lend themselves to such development rather than college education.  The schism should be considered in this country, too.


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

rdean said:


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I would think you've been around long enough to know that "it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know."

Couple that excellent education they got back in their home country (where they are undoubtedly advanced over ours) with the quality of connectivity, and you have a recipe for success (and it certainly seems to be working for them, doesn't it?)


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

bear513 said:


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Pay you?  What are you worth?  Get a fucking job?  I have three.  Full-time as a highly-paid mechanic, part-time as a university professor, and full-time, self-employed artisan.


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

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But, who chooses? The student? The parent? The state?

You're right --- it typically happens at the end of primary education (though, let's be fair - their level of primary education greatly exceeds ours)

I am a big proponent of vocational education. i think we do a lot of students a great disservice by supposedly trying to put all of them on a pre-college track.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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Agreed.  But who do we assign the consequences to?  Personally, parents should be the ultimate arbiter concerning their children's' education.  But how should educational standards be implemented, locally, or nationally?


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## Spare_change (Dec 19, 2016)

gallantwarrior said:


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FINALLY!! (I've been waiting 8 pages for somebody to ask my opinion - lol)

I believe the basic education model is flawed. That which might have worked in the 1930s and 1940s no longer works for us.

Today's education model is based on age - not education. If you are 8, you're in the third grade. If you are 9, you're in the 4th grade. WE suspend their educational growth in favor of social context.

Instead, we need to take a more scientific approach to providing quality education to our students.

We have the capability to explicitly measure the level of a student's knowledge on any subject. We know if he can read at the 3rd grade level - we know if he can do 6th grade math, and we know if he can write at the 10th grade level. Most schools do these measurements today, and then throw them in a file somewhere.

Instead, I propose that we use those measurements to determine not only the level of education the student has already received, but also to determine the level of education the student needs.

For example, let's talk about reading level. Arbitrarily, we plot reading grade level on a 1000 point continuum. If you can read at the first grade level, you get 125 points (remember, testing is going to determine his ability). If he reads at a 4th grade level, he gets 395 points.

So, we plot each student on this continuum (let's call it a graduation yardstick). Where is he placed decides, not only his accomplishments, but the next level he needs to attain. If he scores 395 points, he placed in a "5th grade level" reading class. If he scores 800 points, he is placed in a 10th grade reading class.

Easy to do -- we have all the tools available to us today. BUT - he is placed in that class, no matter his age. If he is 17, and reading at a third grade level, he sits in a class of other students learning at that level. If he is 9, and reading at a 10th grade level, he is placed in that class.

There is NOTHING more damaging to a student than being left behind. Asking a third grade reader to interpret Macbeth is a recipe for instant failure, destroying a student's hunger to learn, and losing a student.

If you've been in education for more than a month, though, you have seen what happens when a student catches fire - when he gets it, when he's excited about it, when he's motivated about it. That 17 year old, reading at a third grade level, will have his eyes opened - he will excel, and he will accelerate.

Why don't we do that? Simple - we have created a false social model that guarantees a certain failure rate. If you can't read in the 6th grade, you still won't be able to read in the 10th grade. If you have to go back to the 3rd grade, obviously, you're a failure and everyone knows it.

So --- eliminate grade levels. Acknowledge performance by scores. Students will be encouraged to perform, and teachers will be mandated to teach. School boards set a minimum set of scores to graduate, and parents have complete visibility into the process.

Piece of cake, huh?


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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No argument...100% agreement.  We have the tools, and not every student is college/university material.  But some may absolutely be more competent for many trades, regardless of academic accomplishments.


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## Unkotare (Dec 19, 2016)

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Speaking as a teacher, I can tell you you're wrong.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

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At what level do you teach?


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## Unkotare (Dec 19, 2016)

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And because they believe the education to be more valuable.


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## Unkotare (Dec 19, 2016)

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High school and college (and privately tutoring)  [and coaching].


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 19, 2016)

"Education" encompasses more than strictly academic pursuits.  Lots of professions are better served by apprenticeship and journeyman relationships than university and college educations.  Unfortunately, both university and union associations have been abrogated by PC interpretations.


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

ding said:


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Or not.

I'm not willing to allow our public education system to be destroyed so people can have tax payer money financing private and religious schools.


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

ding said:


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Sort of....but implying survival of the fittest is the model we should go by means then that there will be a large number of students failed by this.  Private schools can not be forced to take all students - they can pick and choose.  So that's going to leave a certain number of students - those who the schools won't take, those who can't afford to send their kids to private schools even with vouchers, or have no private schools available - in failing school systems that will then fail even further as money is withdrawn and the higher end pupils siphoned off.

You're going to end up with two distinct classes and a widening gulf...how does that fulfil the goal an educated citizen?


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

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Why did you choose the profession?


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## Unkotare (Dec 19, 2016)

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Why do you think competition would "destroy" public education?


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

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Yes, you can have it both ways.  They can choose to enroll in the public school, or they can choose to enroll in private or to homeschool.  That is freedom of choice.

Our nation mandates that a child receives a certain number of years of schooling.  It also provides, through our taxes, but at no cost to the families - free schooling that meets (or should meet) the minimum standard.  If they want more than that - then it's up to them.  They aren't guaranteed a Harvard education.  I don't have kids at all.  Why should I have to subsidize ANYONE's education?  I do because it's in the best interests of our country, but that doesn't mean I should subsidize private for-profit schools or religious schools.


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## Coyote (Dec 19, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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I didn't say it would.  That's a strawman.  I said taking money from the public education to fund private schools would ultimately destroy them or diminish them.  Unlike private schools - they don't set tuition rates to increase their income.  It's based on taxes.  In poor areas, there isn't a lot of tax money to begin with so your talking about reducing it even further for any Tom, Dick and Harry that might want to have his kid's private schooling subsidized.  If you're unhappy with what's going on in the schools become an involved parent.  

There already  IS competition.  There's thousands of private schools and home schooling.


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## Spare_change (Dec 20, 2016)

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Why would taking my child's share of the 'education dollar' destroy the public education system?


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## Spare_change (Dec 20, 2016)

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So, why not give me my share and let me educate my child as I see fit - to include paying whatever extra is necessary to meet my standards?


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## Coyote (Dec 20, 2016)

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How will it be payed for?  And, as a correlary - why should I pay for your child's private education?


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## Coyote (Dec 20, 2016)

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Because, like roads, and the military, education is publically funded.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 20, 2016)

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Because I like teaching.  Teaching is my job that's not a job because it brings me much pleasure.


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## Coyote (Dec 20, 2016)

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I always want to tell teachers - "thank you for your service", because it IS a service.


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## gallantwarrior (Dec 20, 2016)

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Thank you for your consideration.  Good teachers don't do it for the money, that's certain.  One thing I truly enjoy about the job is how much I learn from my students, as well as how much I learn in order to teach them.


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## Unkotare (Dec 20, 2016)

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You're welcome.


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## Coyote (Dec 20, 2016)

I was blessed with some very good teachers as a child, and I know some very good teachers now.


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## Spare_change (Dec 20, 2016)

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You aren't paying for my child's private school - you are reimbursing me for NOT using your public school.

All other costs I will cover out of pocket.


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## Spare_change (Dec 20, 2016)

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It's only publicly funded for those who utilize it. Why should you get paid for NOT educating a child?


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## Coyote (Dec 21, 2016)

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No.  I'm paying for YOUR child's school through MY taxes.  It's not MY public school.  I have NO kids.  Our taxes pay for our social safety net as well.  That doesn't mean we should be paying for mansions out of welfare money simply because folks aren't happy with section 8 apartments.  Same applies to schools.


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## Coyote (Dec 21, 2016)

Spare_change said:


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Then become an active parent and agent of change for local schools.  Don't expect me to pay for your cadillac schools or special religious schools.


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## Spare_change (Dec 21, 2016)

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Got it .... let's make sure everybody gets the same education, especially when it's no education at all. Equality is more important than quality, right?

The public school system is broken --- busted --- bad.


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## Spare_change (Dec 21, 2016)

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You just don't get it, do you? None are so blind as those who cannot see.

I don't want to support your broken school system --- I want to use MY money to improve my child's education. You took it from me --- under the assumption that I was going to benefit from your misuse. I want it back!


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## ding (Dec 22, 2016)

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I don't believe we will. I believe that when we raise our standards, they will rise to meet the expectations.


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## ding (Dec 23, 2016)

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I don't believe it will be destroyed.


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## Spare_change (Dec 23, 2016)

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I would suggest that depends on your definition of "educated citizen" - 

Why would this contribute to "failing school systems" - we've heard the "more teachers per student" mantra for the past 50 years. Frankly, your logic is flawed.


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## ding (Dec 23, 2016)

Competition works only if it is allowed to occur.  Absent competition there is no impetus for change.  An object at rest will remain at rest, an object in motion will remain in motion.  The path of least resistance will be followed.


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## Spare_change (Dec 23, 2016)

ding said:


> Competition works only if it is allowed to occur.  Absent competition there is no impetus for change.  An object at rest will remain at rest, an object in motion will remain in motion.  The path of least resistance will be followed.



How do you feel about corporate run schools?


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## ding (Dec 23, 2016)

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His point was that if he chooses to send his kids to a private school because the public school is inferior he should be reimbursed for the taxes he paid.  I agree.


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## Coyote (Dec 23, 2016)

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Why?

Where is there any guarantee that he has the right to a tax payer funded Harvard education?

My taxes pay for roads.  If I'm unhappy with the quality of the roads should I be reimbursed?

My taxes pay for other people's kids to be educated.  Should I be reimbursed since I have no kids?


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## Coyote (Dec 23, 2016)

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It's not flawed.  Overcrowded classrooms are a huge challenge to effective teaching.  From personal experience - on a much smaller scale, I can attest to that.  I teach dog training classes.  We limit it to 12, with a 3-instructor/assitant to 4 student ratio.  We've had much larger classes, with far fewer instructors, and they were horrible.


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## Spare_change (Dec 23, 2016)

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You deflected and didn't bother to answer the actual question ... go back and try it again. If you need remedial help, just let me know.


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## Spare_change (Dec 24, 2016)

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The question that was asked was why aren't you in favor of school vouchers since it lowers the student-to-teacher ratio in schools that need it most. Now you tell me that vouchering contributes to failing school systems. That would seem to be diametrically opposed to what you were originally saying.


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## Unkotare (Dec 24, 2016)

Coyote said:


> ...Overcrowded classrooms are a huge challenge to effective teaching.  ......





This is very often overblown.


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## ding (Dec 24, 2016)

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No guarantees needed.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is that their performance is not meeting expectations and we need to change that.  How?  By creating competition.  

Is it unreasonable to hold the government accountable for their performance?


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## Coyote (Dec 24, 2016)

ding said:


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There already is competition, no need to create it.  Generally, if there is a problem - you fix it.  You fill in the potholes.  You don't privatize the roads.


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## ding (Dec 24, 2016)

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If there were no need to  create it then education would not be in the state that it is.  You have seen the statistics, right?  We spend more and achieve less.  

Is it unreasonable to hold the government accountable for their performance?


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## Coyote (Dec 24, 2016)

I think it would behoove us to examine the truth of the claims.

*Maybe U.S. public schools don't stink*

_...It’s a debate with broad power to shape the nation’s $600-billion-a-year investment in public education. *Where’s the truth? *That’s not always easy to discern. Here’s a look at four key talking points — and the facts (and spin) behind them.
_
_1. China is eating us for lunch_

_Well, that’s where the U.S. came out in the PISA international math test, given to 15-year-olds around the world in 2009. Only 32 percent of American kids scored proficient, which put us at 32nd in the world, miles behind perennial powerhouses like Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea — and also far behind nations less frequently thought of as academic superstars, including Estonia, Iceland and Slovenia.

Sounds grim. And Harvard education professor Paul Peterson argues that it is. “If we’re 32nd in the world, that’s a pretty serious matter,” said Peterson, a co-author of the new book “ Endangering  Prosperity: A Global View of the American  School,” which the video was produced to promote.

*Then again, we’re 32nd on just one test*. American kids do better relative to the world — though they’re still far from elite — on the PISA science and reading exams.

*And they do better as well on a different, equally respected, international math test known as TIMSS. *

On the most recent TIMSS test, from 2011, American eighth-graders handily outscored seven nations that had the edge on the U.S. in the 2009 PISA exam, including Great Britain, Australia — and, yes, Slovenia. Fourth-graders rocked the TIMSS test even more: They came out ahead of a dozen countries that had beaten the U.S. on the PISA exam.

*As for China, it doesn’t participate as an entire nation; only students from three relatively wealthy regions — Shanghai, Macao and Hong Kong — are tested.* That’s important to note because* income correlates with success on standardized tests*. Finland, often at the top of the global rankings, has a child poverty rate of just 5 percent. In the U.S., it’s 23 percent._​

_*3. We’re spending more, but schools are getting worse*

Warnings on this theme are generally accompanied by graphs showing steep growth in per-pupil spending — juxtaposed against a flat line representing academic achievement.

That’s misleading, however, on two fronts.

*Spending has certainly jumped. But a huge part of the increase — about half, according to economist Richard Rothstein — has been dedicated to serving students with disabilities who were not guaranteed (and often did not receive) a free public education until the 1970s. Schools are also serving far more immigrant students who come in speaking a dizzying array of languages. *

As for the academic flat line: The percentage of kids scoring “below basic” on the National Assessment of Educational Progress — widely considered the most reliable measure — has plummeted in both reading and math in both fourth and eighth grade for every racial group except Native Americans. Average reading and math scores for each subgroup in the fourth and eighth grades have also climbed steadily over the past 20 years.

*But demographic changes in U.S. schools mean that a greater percentage of test takers now come from groups that traditionally score lower on the NAEP tests, such as Hispanic students. So when test scores are aggregated nationwide, it doesn’t look like there’s been much progress — even though taken individually, each group of students has dramatically improved... *_​
*Are private schools that much better?*

Maybe not.
_Are private schools better than public schools? New book says ‘no’
Greater school choice for families and greater autonomy for schools leads to greater academic outcomes, right?  Maybe not.  Using two nationally representative datasets, we recently conducted one of the most comprehensive studies ever performed of school type and achievement in mathematics—a subject widely held to be the best measure of in-school learning.  We analyzed instruction and performance for over 300,000 elementary and middle school students in 15,108 public, charter, and private schools.  What we found surprised us.  Students in public schools actually outperform those in private schools.

...*We found that once we account for the fact that private schools serve families with more advantages associated with academic success—things like money and highly-educated parents—we find that public elementary schools are, on average, simply more effective at teaching mathematics*.  Indeed, demographic differences *more than explain any apparent edge in the raw scores of private school students, and by the time they reach middle school, public school students score ahead of their demographically similar, private school peers*, with differences ranging from a few weeks to a full grade level, depending on the type of private school.

Are Private Schools Really Better Than Public? -  are private schools better? maybe yes maybe no...

In this article, they've found the 5 top reasons parents choose private schools: 
_


_

Better student discipline: 50.9 percent

Better learning environment: 50.8 percent

Smaller class sizes: 48.9 percent

Improved student safety: 46.8 percent

More individual attention: 39.3 percent
_
Not academic reasons - private schools cost considerably more than public schools.  But each of these reasons can be addressed by changing things in public schools.  Class size is huge problem - it's been increasing along with decreased teacher and assistant support.  How can you have better discipline and more individual attention when you've got 60 students in a class?  How can you even get to know them, know what's going on at home, know if they're even getting breakfast in the morning?

The article also points out:
_Public school fans may argue that *private school students have higher scores simply because those institutions tend to attract families with high-achieving students.* And they may have a point. A book published last year made waves by asserting *elementary public schools outperform private schools when adjustments are made to account for demographic differences.*_​


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## Spare_change (Dec 24, 2016)

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Actually, what you do is strip the road down to its base .... then, build it back up, making the changes necessary to permanently repair the problem.

Strip filling (what you propose for potholes) only ensures that the problem will come back in short order (you know, kinda like our education systems)


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## Jackson (Dec 25, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> The time has come.
> 
> It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.
> 
> ...


Teach only the academics!  Children in K-3 should have the subjects, reading, math and language arts.  No one goes to fourth grade without being on grade level in reading and math.  Stop with the superfluous social engineering!


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## Unkotare (Dec 26, 2016)

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No science? No art? Music? Languages? Computers?


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## Jackson (Dec 26, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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No, not in the first four grades.  Concentrate on the very basic fundamentals before starting with the content areas and fluff.  Once all students are prepared in the basic reading, math and language arts, they will successfully apply their knowledge to other subjects.  What is a horror is that students below grade level are expected to read and comprehend books that are above their reading levels in the upper elementary and middle schools.

You wouldn't want to build your house in a weak foundation, would you?  The house would not be stable, just as the students' success would be tenuous at best.


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## Unkotare (Dec 26, 2016)

Jackson said:


> ... before starting with the content areas and fluff. ....




"fluff"?


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## Unkotare (Dec 26, 2016)

Jackson said:


> ..... Once all students are prepared in the basic reading, math and language arts, they will successfully apply their knowledge to other subjects. ......




They won't all be, just like they aren't all now. You'd just have all the average to above average kids four years behind in everything else. Brilliant plan.


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## Unkotare (Dec 26, 2016)

Jackson said:


> ...
> 
> You wouldn't want to build your house in a weak foundation, would you?  The house would not be stable, just as the students' success would be tenuous at best.




It doesn't work that way. Students don't have to 'wait' until they are at X reading level before they can be introduced to Math, or Science, or any other subject.


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## Jackson (Dec 26, 2016)

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Math is considered one of the foundation subjects.  If all the teaching and learning experiences are dominated by reading, the students well be far ahead if they are reading at or above grade level when the content areas (science, history geography, history and foreign languages are introduced.  What good does it do to give a 5th grader a geography book on the 5th grade level when they are reading at a 3rd grade level.

Physical education, art and music are generally considered planning time for the teachers.  Subjects  that teach what firemen and policemen do, is not going to aid the students to read or do math on grade level.


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## Jackson (Dec 26, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Jackson said:
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How do you figure that?


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## Jackson (Dec 26, 2016)

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And that is why the students are so far behind grade level by the time 6th grade comes along.


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## Unkotare (Dec 26, 2016)

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No, it's not.


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## BuckToothMoron (Dec 26, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> The time has come.
> 
> It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.
> 
> ...



Abolish the DEA. Let state and local governments run their education system without interference from the federal government.  Many will allow for a voucher system that will allow poorer families to enroll in higher performing schools. Public schools will be forced to perform or perish.


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## Unkotare (Dec 26, 2016)

Jackson said:


> ...  What good does it do to give a 5th grader a geography book on the 5th grade level when they are reading at a 3rd grade level.....




Why would you assume they are?


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## Unkotare (Dec 26, 2016)

Jackson said:


> ...
> 
> Physical education, art and music are generally considered planning time for the teachers.  Subjects  that teach what firemen and policemen do, is not going to aid the students to read or do math on grade level.





Say what now?


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## Jackson (Dec 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > ...  What good does it do to give a 5th grader a geography book on the 5th grade level when they are reading at a 3rd grade level.....
> ...


It is a fact. 
Test results: 7 in 10 kids below grade level


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## Unkotare (Dec 27, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...




Not because students are studying other subjects. Withholding other subjects will not address whatever is causing some students to fall behind.


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## Jackson (Dec 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


You know nothing that is going on in our schools.


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## Unkotare (Dec 27, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...




I'm pretty sure I know much, much better than you. I'm in "our schools" _every day. A_re you?


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## Spare_change (Dec 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


In your opinion, what IS causing other students to fall behind?


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## Unkotare (Dec 27, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...






A combination of factors, and the combination is different for different students in different places and circumstances.


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## Jackson (Dec 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


I was for 32 years as well as being a teacher, a specialist and a consultant to mentor teachers and recommend firing or hiring after the first year of mentorship.  One of ten individuals in a staff for a major city in the US.


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## Jackson (Dec 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


So what do you blame the failure of 70-% of our 6th graders to meet grade level?  You don't think we are doing something wrong?


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## Spare_change (Dec 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Don't dance ... tell us. We want to know. What are the factors?


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Unkotare said:
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> 
> > Spare_change said:
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 How much time you got? There is the native intelligence of the individual students involved, cultural attitudes towards education, nutrition, sleep, environment, Affective issues of every sort, quality of instruction, curriculum, facilities, etc.


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## Jackson (Dec 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Placing blame on the families does not help.  We have the authority to create a curriculum that fosters excellence in the students.  I taught in the inner city as well.  You are placing the effectiveness squarely on the shoulders of the families when we should be supporting them and working with them.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
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> > Unkotare said:
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And of course I should mention the student's security, state of mind, and support structure, among many other possible factors in many possible combinations.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> > Spare_change said:
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How do you read that from my post? Did you really read it?


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## Jackson (Dec 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> > Spare_change said:
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Anything taking the blame off of us and put on the families.  We have to change the the curriculum from social engineering to purely academics.  Also, the families have to finally understand that they, too have the power of making sure their child is prepared for school and supporting the teachers in making sure they are doing homework and understanding that retention is indeed an option at the end of the year if they cannot master the basics of the program.


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## Jackson (Dec 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Yes I did.  Nutrition?  We feed them breakfast and lunch.  Sleep and environment is where you place the blame on the families.  A good teacher can affect the out come by motivating students and families, proper teaching and reteaching and creating a good rapport with the parents.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...




That does not encompass the whole of even that one factor.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Jackson said:


> .... Sleep and environment is where you place the blame on the families.......




Did I say as much? Stop making assumptions. You seem desperate to imagine an 'attack' on families while apparently assuming schools can take their place.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Jackson said:


> .....A good teacher can affect the out come by motivating students and families, proper teaching and reteaching and creating a good rapport with the parents.





A teacher, good or bad, cannot _create _the home environment for a student.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Jackson said:


> ...
> Anything taking the blame off of us and put on the families.  ....




You didn't read my post.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Jackson said:


> ....We have to change the the curriculum from social engineering to purely academics. .....




Other posts of yours suggest the opposite position. Which is it?


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## Jackson (Dec 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > .... Sleep and environment is where you place the blame on the families.......
> ...


I've had students that were abandoned, raped (often!) and their home life is in crisis mode.  School is a haven for them.  They look forward to coming and try to please the teacher.  They work very hard for their progress despite their home life.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...




And some kids respond differently to that sort of thing. Sooner or later it affects everyone's performance at school to have that kind of crisis at home.


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## Spare_change (Dec 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
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Then, let's just narrow it down to the factors that the education system can affect. Nobody seriously questions the liability of parents for poor student performance, but we can only deal with what we can deal with.

What are the factors, influenced by the school system, that we can work on?


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> > Spare_change said:
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The problem is, if those other factors are not addressed the ones the schools tackle will never be enough to overcome the obstacles to student success. This is basically where we are now.


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## Spare_change (Dec 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
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I recognize that ---- but you must recognize that the ability of the people to influence change is limited to certain areas. Tell me what I can influence. Tell me what my school board can do.

Surely, we're not supposed to just throw our hands in the air and surrender.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
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On the contrary, schools should always be striving to do better in all areas that they can. However, the "that they can" part needs to be viewed realistically.


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## Jackson (Dec 28, 2016)

I have received letters from parents telling me they appreciate me being their teacher as well as their child's.  Every year, I have sent out a form questionnaire asking them to rate me as their child's teacher, my unique program, and if their child was retained, was it fair and if they felt they would have been better off being retained as planned the year before.

(In my program, I always take all the children who should have repeated kdg. and they came to my Title I language arts 1st grade class for one half day and the regular classroom the other half of the day for the remaining subjects.)  Every year, about 7 out of 21 were retained into a regular 1st grade class and 14 went on to grade 2.

Everyone of the children passed to 2nd grade were on or above grade level, each year having some students reading at grade 3.

Mind you, all of the students were traditionally going to be retained in kdg.

I work with parents, have workshops for parents and send them good notes often about their progress, good manners or cute things they did that they would like to know.  I even wrote Dads in prison, sharing the good news with them if the mother or grandparents allowed it.

My curriculum was written by me and allowed by the principal for it was proven to work.  I had University people come in and evaluate the progress of the students and they wrote research on my methods.

Teaching is not an 8 to 3 job.  Not if you care.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 29, 2016)

We have a resource that did not really exist 20 years ago: Project Gutenberg.

Sure people will tell you that it was started in the 70s but in 2000 there were only about 2000 ebooks in the collection.  Now it is more than 53,000.  The first SF book I read in 4th grade is now in the public domain and was added to PG in 2006.

My mother taught me to read by the time I was 4 years old.  But how does a 4 year old figure out what to read and get access to it?  The choice of computers is incredible now.

$89 Linux laptop? Check out the new Pinebook from Raspberry Pi rival Pine | ZDNet

Grade school kids could be given more expensive computers now but I find it difficult to imagine what more expensive computers could do for education in grade school.

We have too much bureaucracy in too many schools in too many states.  A reading list with explanations for each entry could short circuit the boring and stupid system we claim is intended for education.

*BLACK BEAUTY* by Anna Sewell
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/271/271-h/271-h.htm

*David and the Phoenix* (1957) by Edward Ormondroyd
http://librivox.org/david-and-the-phoenix-by-edward-ormondroyd/
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27922/27922-h/27922-h.htm

*The Wind in the Willows* (1908) by Kenneth Grahame
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/289

*The Boxcar Children* (1924) by Gertrude Chandler Warner
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/42796/42796-h/42796-h.htm

*The Fourth R* (1959) by George O. Smith
http://www.digilibraries.com/ebook/118993/The_Fourth_R/

GOLDEN AGE SCI-FI: 1934–1963 – HiLobrow

psik


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## Spare_change (Dec 29, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Damn, you're making me beg .... what is the "that they can" list?


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 29, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Damn, you're making me beg .... what is the "that they can" list?



What!?  Who are you asking what?

psik


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## Spare_change (Dec 29, 2016)

psikeyhackr said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Damn, you're making me beg .... what is the "that they can" list?
> ...


Keep up or catch up .... Unkotare and I are dancing right now.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 29, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Keep up or catch up .... Unkotare and I are dancing right now.



Sorry, he is in my ignore list and doesn't show up in a search.

psik


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Can you explain why teaching to the test is wrong?

The tests that my high school math students take are based on the Common Core standards.  I teach them the skills they need in order to meet those standards.  They are then given a test over those items.  That is teaching to the test, is it not?

Why would you teach them something that is not tested?  Also, why would you not teach them something that is tested?

The "teaching to the test" blurb is one of the most misunderstood phrases in education.  I would guess 99.9% of people outside education misuse it 100% of the time, as wells as about half of those in education who suffer from rectocranial insertion.


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## Unkotare (Dec 31, 2016)

psikeyhackr said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Keep up or catch up .... Unkotare and I are dancing right now.
> ...






It's a shame we can't discuss the only two thoughts that have ever accidentally stumbled into your less-than-capable brain: a sci-fi reading list and double-book accounting. Oh, what I'm missing out on...


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



No. I have never used the services of a fire department because I have never had a fire.  Should I have to pay for something I do not use?  Society pays for the ebenefit of an educated populace.  This falls into the "Suck it up, buttercup!" category.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



So you want 17 year-olds and 8 year-olds sitting in the same reading class?  Are you insane?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...



They are not your child's share.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
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Where do you off saying that there is no education at all?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



Don't pay your taxes and see how well that works for you.

Also, why do you say it is broken?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

ding said:


> Competition works only if it is allowed to occur.  Absent competition there is no impetus for change.  An object at rest will remain at rest, an object in motion will remain in motion.  The path of least resistance will be followed.



So you want all schools be required to accept all students and have them all meet the same standards?

Without that, there is still no competition if one school is allowed to skirt the requirements.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

ding said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



Then you are both wrong.  At least you have company.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > The time has come.
> ...



Why do you want to get rid of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Just how are you going to make that happen?


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## BuckToothMoron (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



Typo- meant department of edu.  Obviously


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...



That would be the Education Department.


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## Jackson (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


By having the schools finally become the authority to school.  right now, we enable parents to shirk their responsibilities make allowing students with sub par progress be passed on to the next grade.  Once the parents FINALLY realize that working WITH the schools will enable their children to become successful students, they just may realize that they, too, are responsible for their children's success.

We have to stop this culture that schools are not important and make parents realize the children;s progress is also their responsibility.  No parent want to see their children fail.  It is incumbent of the school and teacher to keep the parents informed early that their child is in peril of not making enough progress.  At that time it is up to the teacher to meet with them and design plans for home assistance and extra work in the subjects that they need.  That's where workshops for parents are needed and they will focus on the need of their particular child.

No student will be passed onto the next grade without meeting the minimum standards.

In all my experience, I have had but two families reject the help and tried to force passing their child on to the next grade.  I and the principal refused and showed them all copies of the communications that I and the school sent to them, plus warnings that retention was possible.  The students were retained the following year.


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## Jackson (Dec 31, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You should remember that other childless couples paid taxes so your child could have an adequate education.


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## ScienceRocks (Dec 31, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
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Which of course increases the standards of living for the people without children. It is all a cycle.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > gallantwarrior said:
> ...



That's exactly right ---- if they both need the same level of teaching, then they should receive the same level of teaching. It makes no sense to throw away the opportunity to educate a 17 year old, no matter what his level might be.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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Oh, i forgot .. it all belongs to the government, right? You just ALLOW us to keep some of it, right? That money was given to the government to educate my student ... when they can't do that, they have abrogated the contract, and the money should be refunded.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The point I was making (obviously, too subtle for you) is that our education system is built on a 1930s model, and has failed out students. Further, it caters to the lowest common denominator. Those who favor public education are more interested in providing the same level of education to ALL students, rather than providing education appropriate for EACH student. Equality is more important than quality, right?

Now you got it?


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## ding (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
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Good old, John Dewey.  That POS.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



No one has proposed not paying taxes. In fact, I have stated exactly the obvious - it's not about who pays, it's about how the money is spent.

I pay in taxes. If I do not have any children in school, but I realize a societal benefit from the education, paid for by my taxes.

I pay in taxes. If I DO have a child in school, I receive a return on my investment in two ways - 1) the same societal benefit I would receive even if I didn't have children, and 2) a quality education for my child.

When you can't provide a quality education to my child (and I don't think any American can justifiably argue the quality of our public education system), then, as a parent, I have a responsibility to 1) seek my investment back, and 2) find a better way to get my child a high quality education.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Competition works only if it is allowed to occur.  Absent competition there is no impetus for change.  An object at rest will remain at rest, an object in motion will remain in motion.  The path of least resistance will be followed.
> ...





Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Thank you for your opinion ...


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...



The shining example of government inefficiency and interference.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



You kinda got that wrong ....

Other childless couples paid taxes so your child could have an _inadequate _education.

Nobody proposes that we don't pay taxes - but that we be allowed to determine how, and where, the taxes for my child's education are spent. Pretty sure they call that "local control".


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## Jackson (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


My child went to a terrific Lutheran school and was very well educated.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...



Oh, so it is that easy?

How do you do this when most of the parents of my former students are not Mom and Dad.  I could count the number of students in my classes (a total of over 100 students) that had two married parents on one hand! Most lived with drug-addicted mothers, overwhelmed grandmothers, disinterested aunts, or were in the foster care system.  Mom or Dad and sometimes both were incarcerated.  Most were not born in the US, nor were they US citizens.  Those are the students that kill our test scores.

What do you do if a parent speaks a language for which there are literally no translators?

It is so easy to come up with solutions if we assume all of our students come from two-parent, stable, and economically stable families,  The problem is most of the time those kids don't need the help.

I sum it up this way:  Poor students make for very poor students.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
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You are an idiot if you think that will work.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Jackson said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...



Nobody seriously questions the responsibility of parents to the educational process. But even you will admit that the schools make every effort to exclude parents from the decision making process. I have sat thru too many P-T conferences in which I was told to "not worry about it - we know what we are doing", or had my suggestions dismissed out of hand. I sat on too many school boards in which the administration would put together a predetermined answer to a problem not yet surfaced, fail to provide justification for that answer, and completely ignore alternative answers, leaving a half-educated school board to rubber stamp the only alternative put before them. Again, the professionals tried to say "we're the experts - just listen to us - we know what we're doing". Frankly, the arrogance in school administrations is appalling.

When is the last time you sat with parents and discussed class alternatives? When did you have to justify using one methodology over another? When is the last time your English teacher sent home a list of books he/she intended to read next year, and asked for parent input? When is the last time graduation criteria was determined with parent input? When is the last time you saw a school board member elected who DIDN'T have teachers' union support? When was the last time you sat in a school board in which a parent's time to address the board wasn't restricted to 2 or 5 minutes?

Educators complain about "teaching to the test". Why? Given that the test supposedly reflects what we want out students to know, it would seem inherently logical that the student should be taught what's on the test. Educators want to make teaching all about magic. They don't want to be held to specific and measurable quantifiers, because that would encourage qualitative judgement of their work. Simply, most educators don't want to be responsible to parents, and most educators consider parents a necessary evil.

Common Core is only the latest thing to fall prey to the "holier than thou" attitude of educators. It was not enough that simple, clear cut expectations was established, against which school and teacher performance could be measured. Educators immediately began to muddy the pictures, not only telling schools WHAT they needed to teach, but HOW they would teach it. School administrations saw CC as a way to control its teachers, not allowing them the flexibility necessary in the classroom. State administrators saw CC as a way to control school administrations, and federal agencies saw it as a way to dictate all the way down to the classroom. Enter the teacher's unions - who clearly don't want their clientele performance measured at all - and we create the political morass we have today. 

Everybody wants to be in charge - and, the meantime, Johnny at the local McDonalds can't make change, and I get engineering graduates that can barely write their own name, much less put together a viable, understanding engineering proposal.

Of course, those parents accepted your help. They WANT to contribute, but the school system today and just patting them on the back, and telling them not to worry about it, because "... the experts got it all under control."

BS.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...





Spare_change said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



You really need lessons on critical thinking.  I have no children in school, but pay taxes to educate all children.  It is not "my money" and more than it is yours.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...



YOU personify the arrogance of the "educational elite". You ARE the problem - not those parents. But, hey, you found an excuse to justify your inability to educate --- so I guess it works for you.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



You have no evidence to support any of your comments!  Our education system was not built on a 1930s model, so you can stop right there. 

What is your educational background that qualifies you to pontificate on matters you obviously know little or nothing about other than what you have read from biased sources?  I suggest educating yourself on this topic before embarrassing yourself further.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Dec 31, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...



Just put away the holier than thou attitude.  It just proves you to be a classless, undereducated moron who like to spam message boards with your tripe.

You could not answer any of those questions, so you went for the insult.  That is just like a typical educational expert wannabe!

We are all stocked up on stupid,  We don't need any more.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...



First - my background.

Bachelor's in Journalism - University of Wisconsin
Master's in Political Science - University of Maryland
Adjunct Professor - University of Southern California

8 years on various committees (financial, curriculum, etc) - Chino Unified School District, Chino CA
6 years member School Board - Chino Unified School District, Chino CA
5 years on various committees - District 11, Colorado Springs, CO
4 years member, School Board, District 11, Colorado Springs, CO

Oldest son, high school Physics teacher, football coach
Second son, high school Math teacher, Head football coach at a different school
One daughter in law, Special Education Teacher, transitioning to School administrator

So, you can be assured that I know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

The "1930s model" was simply a reference to the outmoded school structure in use even today that is more predicated on the age of the student, rather than abilities of the student. We group our kids, not by educational level, but by some arbitrary common model based on their age. The result is that some kids get held back (because they can't expand their knowledge while waiting for the rest of the class to catch up) or we leave some behind (because they don't have the basics necessary to understand the level being taught.). Frankly, our school system celebrates mediocrity, while playing lip service to excellence. Even today, we pass kids along simply because of potential social stigma, rather than a concern for preparation for adult life. 

Your very own statement about putting a 17 year old and a third grader together - despite the obvious commonality of need for that level of education support - speaks to that very failed model. Are you suggesting that a teacher can't handle a 17 year old and a 8 year old in the same room for one hour a day? If you don't have grades based on age, you don't have a grades stigma.

Now that you know who I am ---- just exactly what would you like to discuss? Come on - embarrass me.


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## Spare_change (Dec 31, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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Answer what questions? Your tired little rant about how you could be a really great teacher if only you didn't have to deal with parents? That one? 

If you're looking for excuses - and, obviously, you are - that's as good an excuse as any.


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## mgh80 (Jan 1, 2017)

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-First of all your children's credentials do NOT add on to yours. Knowing people doesn't make you an expert on that topic or give you more insight. If that were the case I'd be very knowledgable about baseball since I know a few MLB players.

-From what I can see about your post you have exactly 0 years experience teaching in a K-12 classroom

Seriously if you're going to use ethos to make your argument, at least have it be relevant.


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## mgh80 (Jan 1, 2017)

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-Don't make the mistake in thinking that every parent cares about their child's education. Unfortunately it's usually the students who need support from their parents the most that don't get it

-As an English teacher I have ZERO input in what novels we read in class...how could I possibly ask parents for input when I don't get any?

-Should graduation requirements really be up to parental input? What if parents decide that students don't need to enroll in any math classes-would that make sense to you?

-I don't complain about "teaching to a test", most teachers don't. What I do complain about is being told from my district not to "teach to the test", but rather to "teach the skills necessary to do well on the test"...wtf is that about? Tell me whether you want me teaching to the test or not--don't tell me contradictions.

-Where do you get the idea that most educators view parents as a necessary evil? A few parents absolutely are, a few parents are amazing and make my job and classroom run more efficiently, most aren't involved unless they get a phone call home.

-Common Core is a set of standards NOT a curriculum...your post makes it seem like you can't differentiate the difference.

-In my experience the kids who'll end up working at McDonalds aren't the ones with parents that are involved. They're usually the kids who come from a single parent household, and their parents will show up to football games, buy them shoes for $150, buy them Beats headphones...but wont bother to show up on conference night.

I currently teach 152 students. Guess how many parents showed up on conference night? FOUR (and two of them were for the same kid-so three students had parents show up). 3 out 152, or 2%. If the parents want input in my classroom (and I want them to)-all they have to do is show up. If they don't show up for conference, they don't send me emails, they don't call my work number, they don't send notes with children, they ignore my emails/phone calls/etc...what do they expect?

I would love and embrace parents who want to get involved with their children's education-but I can't force them to and I don't attempt to.

It's painfully clear that you have zero experience in a K-12 environment.

PS: I LOVE being evaluated because while I'm not god's gift to teaching, every year my observations and test scores beat my the district and school average. For the most recent exams that took place in mid-December, my students beat the district average by a full letter grade, and my school average by about 6.5% Considering I teach English and most of my students come from more non-English speaking backgrounds than most of my county-I know I'm a great teacher.

Why wouldn't I embrace being evaluated?


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## BuckToothMoron (Jan 1, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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Sorry to confuse you.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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Thank you for admitting that you are completely unqualified.  You have no educational background in education.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

mgh80 said:


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LOL


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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Where did I say anything of the sort?  All of that education and you STILL cannot read?

I cannot deal with the parents because there aren't any!

To piggy-back off another poster's comment, we held our parent teacher conference this year prior to the biggest football game of the season so the parents could make one trip.  I had two parents that I needed to talk to show up.  Those that did
show were the good students!

Tell me how to fix that!


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

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The very personification of the arrogance that is ruining our education system, and our kids. That is EXACTLY the attitude you portray to parents - and you wonder why they don't get involved.

You ARE the problem.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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It is good that you can laugh at yourself, just like we are doing at you!


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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You have made zero experience in K-12 other than you passed through the grades.  Your arrogance is assuming that you are remotely qualified to make judgements on something you have not personally experienced.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

Anybody notice how defensive the education community gets when you question their performance and their value? They produce a failed product and yet they have the temerity to claim THEY know best. How DARE we demand excellence, how DARE we demand accountability?

Doors slam shut ..... and they wonder why they can't get the average citizen involved.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

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That's it? That's the best you've got? You can't even make a cogent argument for your position, but instead resort to childish and mindless ridicule of someone who disagrees with you??

You ARE the problem.


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## Unkotare (Jan 1, 2017)

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You don't reach out to families yourself?


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

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Your arrogance is only exceeded by the size of your ego.


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## Unkotare (Jan 1, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> Anybody notice how defensive the education community gets when you question their performance and their value? They produce a failed product and yet they have the temerity to claim THEY know best. How DARE we demand excellence, how DARE we demand accountability?
> 
> Doors slam shut ..... and they wonder why they can't get the average citizen involved.






Go easy with the broad brush.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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I responded with a lot more than you did to the other poster's very well-constructed post showing how you are completely clueless.  You deserve every bot of ridicule because you fit the mold of an educator wannabe so well!

When asked for suggestions, you act just like the school board members that get elected here locally, who are lucky to have a certificate from a junior college on their resume.  Anyone with a bit of sense knows the job of a school board member is long on hours, short on pay, and devoid of any meaningful respect, just like being a K-12 teacher.

You at least should know that.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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At least I am qualified to state my opinions, unlike you.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

Unkotare said:


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Oh, believe me - I recognize that most teachers aren't like that. But, it is this pernicious and arrogant holier-than-thou attitude that is strangling our good teachers. How many good teachers just get tired of it and quit ---- on the job. Just Thursday, I asked a teacher why she gave kids a pass any time they asked for it - to include passes to leave a closed campus. 

Her response?

"I've been here 17 years, I've got tenure, and I just don't want to deal with the bastards any more."

Now THAT is the kind of teacher I want for my kids.

Then, I talked to two of her former students - assistance coaches on the football team - and both told me she was one of the best teachers they ever had, that she was motivated, and she cared. So, what changed her?

It's always easiest to blame someone else - that way, you don't have to look inside.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

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You really don't see it, do you?

It's the parent's fault.
It's the student's fault.
It's the school board's fault.
Now, it's the community's fault.

Listen to yourself .... it will probably be the first time.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

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Another snarky, childish attack .... how unlike you.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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OK, so you can read when you want to!

Now, pony up those suggestions as to how we deal with all of those problems because teachers are tapped out!


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 1, 2017)

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You think it is childish because it exposes you as a fraud.  Too bad!


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

Unkotare said:


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I'm going to comment a second time ... I want to be absolutely clear.

I've known a lot of good teachers - great teachers. Unfortunately, a lot of the good ones get so ground down by the "system", get so frustrated by the incompetent administration, and yes, get tired of putting up with undisciplined kids and uncaring parents that they just start "mailing it in". 

i don't blame them. But, I DO want to help them.


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## ScienceRocks (Jan 1, 2017)

I'd simply choose one of the top 5 educational systems on earth and apply it to our country....

Of course, I'd increase the punishment on the trouble makers.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

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If you had bothered to actually read what was posted here, you would see some of my suggestions. But, I'll tell you what --- I'll just sum it up right here. If you want to discuss the mechanics, I'll be happy to expand later. Just ask the question.

We need to create an educational process that creates qualified, motivated, and empowered graduates. Our current system does not do that. 

We not only accept mediocrity, we embrace it - in fact, we encourage it. Schools are eliminating valedictory awards, National Honor Societies - anything that might demonstrate that one student is performing better than others. When schools will not allow the top scholar to be recognized for fear of hurting the feelings of those who didn't reach that level, you have to seriously wonder about the motivation of the system. When schools eliminate honor rolls, or decrease the requirements to be recognized on the honor roll to a level that the average baboon qualifies, you have to seriously wonder about the motivation. We do not celebrate excellence - we suppress it. 

We don't condemn lack of performance - we condone it, forgive it, and cover it up. We do not penalize poor performance. We ignore it - we reward the non-performers by advancing them despite their failures. We celebrate those who meet the minimum standard, ignore those who don't, and suppress those who do. Equality over quality. It would seem that it is better that all students graduate academically handicapped, than to push each student to his maximum potential simply because it's easier.

No one seriously questions whether teachers know how to teach. So, what's the problem? It's a problem that faces all segments of society. It is a problem of responsibility. It is a problem of accountability. Simply put, neither teachers nor students are held responsible for the results. No one is accountable.

We must, first, create a system that accurately measures student performance, and establishes levels of responsibility for parents, teachers, students, and administrators. Until we can identify the cause of the problem, we can't fix the problem. There must be rewards - and there must be penalties. 

Teachers have the knowledge to do the job, but I'm not convinced they have the tools. We need to change our approach to schools. Today, our goal is to create centralized schools that service a particular geographical area. In order to save money, we make them bigger, and populate them with the latest gadgets. They are nothing more than the latest version of the one room schoolhouse. How about smaller schools, dictated by student population, collocated on centralized campuses? 

As I have stated before, I am in favor of eliminating individual grades, based on year of birth, and creating classes based on common capabilities. If we eliminate the so-called "social stigma" of being behind in learning, maybe we can save some of these kids the system today is simply throwing away. Many private schools use what is called the 'pod' approach, in which students of a common level are grouped together for common learning. If this is done immediately when a student begins to fall behind, we can save him/her, and avoid the "17 year old in the same class as a 3rd grader", because we will have identified his shortcoming, addressed it immediately, and brought him up to speed with his contemporaries.

I am not in favor of either the "oooh, you failed to keep up, so we're going to hold you up to public criticism by holding you back" or, even worse, the "Oh, I know you didn't learn as well as the others, but we're just going to push you ahead where your shortfalls can only be exacerbated, resulting in a complete shutdown of the desire to learn". Unfortunately, these are the only two options for students who under-perform we have available today. Nor am I fond of the "You're learning too fast - just sit in the back of the room until the others catch up" approach for super-achievers. Boredom is the quickest way to kill intellectual curiosity.

Smaller schools - smaller classes - teaching focus on rewarding performance and immediate corrective actions for non-performance. It's a simple formula.

Now, school control - I am adamantly opposed to federal control and federal dictates. The federal government has never come up with a one-size-fits-all solution for any problem, much less the most important problem of our time. I believe in state standards, passed down to communities, and local community control of implementation. 

Any specific areas you would like me to address? I can wax long and eloquently about special education, ESL programs, the community responsibilities of schools, how to identify, manage, and eliminate substandard teachers. You pick it .... By the way, I am also in favor of a two track system.


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## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2017)

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Rule 4c. When lacking a coherent or cogent counter-argument, attack the poster.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2017)

The National Honor Society is still there. Most schools still have an honor roll and a high honor roll. Don't overreact to the media.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2017)

Go ahead and wax on about ELL while you're in a typing mood.


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## mgh80 (Jan 2, 2017)

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-My school has an honor roll and high honor roll. As a reward the students who make it are invited to a free BBQ during their lunch period--the kids who don't make the honor roll aren't allowed to attend. Graduating with honors also gets to walk across the stage first, and wear a special color to distinguish them from the "regular" graduates.

-We have a valedictorian who gives the commencement speech at graduation

-We have "reg" classes, honor class, and AP classes...students are grouped together based on ability for the most part (there's always fluctuation to a certain degree obviously)...although honestly there are quite a few kids who get put into honor classes because of their behavior...some reg classes can be challenging for teachers and students who don't know what they're doing.

-More importantly a HUGE flaw with your argument: *you actually don't want to group up students of the same ability in class-what's the point?* I place low kids with medium, and medium with high (I really break down medium in medium low and medium high but let's not get too far in depth). Why?

-If you group a low kid with a high kid the high kid will do all of the work and the low kid gets a free pass
-If you group a low kid with another low kid they're going to struggle completing the work and probably not gain the knowledge required (struggling is ok--never acquiring the required skills is not)
-If you group that low kid with a medium kid the low kid will work AND learn from a kid who has a higher ability that the low kid couldn't do with a kid of their caliber. It also benefits the medium kid because by teaching somebody the skills required, they're going to fine tune their knowledge ahead of time and solidify their grasp on concepts, increasing the ability of the medium kid as well.

Honestly the above is teaching 101 and something I learned at the end of my first year or the middle of my second year of teaching IIRC.

-As far as teachers being held accountable: as I stated before (which you conveniently ignored): I'm evaluated by my district, principal, AP's in terms of observations (including informals where they come into my classroom and evaluate the class without a heads up), they also look the writing scores from my students, their exam scores, SATs (if applicable), and they track the progress of the students from year to year as well. At the year of the year we're given a number score (VAM score) telling us how well or poorly we did. Teachers can and do get fired for failing to reach an effective level of performance. Newer teachers get more flexibility (because you obviously wouldn't expect a first year teacher to perform as well as a twenty year teacher), but I've seen plenty of teachers let go due to poor performance. For the record last year I was rated as being highly effective, and received a bonus for doing so. It's not easy since most teachers do not receive the bonus. *How is that not being held accountable?*

-I'm not sure which "gadgets" you're speaking of, but please give my district a call and inform them-because I sure you my classroom is severely lacking (hell I don't even have a working printer).

-I happen to agree that the school system pushes the lower level kids through too easily...it's why so many kids hate my class (in the beginning), but love it by the time they leave. I hold them accountable and will not push them through.

-Smaller classrooms would obviously be ideal. I currently have 25 kids in each class and while that's certainly manageable, it's not that far away from having a ratio of too many students per teacher. Somehow this year I got one period of 19 kids, and the rest 25. That class with 19 kids performs better on their writings and exams. So why not go down to about 20 kids per class instead of 25? Money.


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## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2017)

Unkotare said:


> The National Honor Society is still there. Most schools still have an honor roll and a high honor roll. Don't overreact to the media.



I'm not overreacting to the media - I AM, however, reacting to local conditions, and what clearly is developing (and has been developing for several years) in our society. Many schools still have them - but, for how long?


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## mgh80 (Jan 2, 2017)

Spare_change said:


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I have heard of zero push to remove academic accolades...if anything I've heard about pushing for more of them. Tell my students who have less than a "C" average and can't play on the school's football/basketball teams that the schools are getting rid of promoting academic achievement.


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## Treeshepherd (Jan 2, 2017)

Technology is the driving force of change in education. It's become possible to study any subject with any teacher anywhere in the world, remotely. Virtual reality can enable students to attend a classroom full of avatars. 
Technology distributes power away from centralized models like our expensive 20th century education system.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 2, 2017)

Treeshepherd said:


> Technology is the driving force of change in education. It's become possible to study any subject with any teacher anywhere in the world, remotely. Virtual reality can enable students to attend a classroom full of avatars.
> Technology distributes power away from centralized models like our expensive 20th century education system.



As time passes, the on-line education model is proving to be more and more of a failure.


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## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2017)

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That doesn't promote academic achievement - it promotes academic mediocrity.


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## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2017)

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I appreciate your response - honest and adult - unlike some we've gotten here from the 'education community'.

To address the issues:

I agree that there are schools, such as yours, that recognize and reward excellence. But, as we have witnessed, there has been a movement in the education industry to eliminate these types of activities, lest we “hurt their feelings”. Life is a competitive arena, and we do our kids no service if we don’t prepare them for the ups and downs of that competition. We have a whole generation of “participation trophy” kids today who need safe spaces and play doh because they can’t handle the agony of losing an election. We hardly did them any service at all.

“Honor classes” and “AP classes” bring up a whole different area. First, I am absolutely in favor of anything that challenge each student. But, I had a conversation with an AP teacher at one of our local high schools, and he brought up a very interesting point. The cost of honors classes, he claims, is a sop to politically active parents, and penalizes those children who do not take those classes. He went on to explain that the additional cost-per-student is significantly higher than a regular class, and that the students tended to be affluent white students. That additional cost is focused on a relatively small percentage of students, and is denied to all the other students. It was an interesting point of view.

Having said that, I believe in challenging every student. I believe in AP, or Honors, and I believe in classes that are geared to the future capacity, not the current capability, of each student. Your point about mixing and matching High-average and average-low students is, of course, the appropriate way. I was painting with a broad brush when I said we needed challenging courses at each level. However, I think you must admit that schools do not actively consider class structure when assigning students – some schools pay lip service to it, but in truth, it really becomes a lotto whether you get a class of performers or a class of non-performers (those tend to be cast in molasses, whereas the it is the median students that follow the direction of the class leaders – whether they be performers or non-performers).

As for teacher evaluations – you and I both know that those evaluations are generally conducted by people who have two common traits: 1) they have a vested interest in the results of that evaluation, and 2) they are people who have either deserted the classroom, or haven’t been in the classroom in 20 years. Even worse, they measure the teacher against a model that has failed our students for 50 years. Evaluations need to be measured against concrete performance standards, not opinions, and need to accurately document the teacher’s strengths and weaknesses. We’ve all seen the little ol’ teacher who has been carried by the administration, or because the new guy is the principal’s best friend. As long as you have subjective criteria, opinions matter. The current teacher evaluation methodology are, more often, a formality. Your speak of a much more rigorous, and formalized, evaluation process than I’ve seen in any school district I’ve been associated with. I’m curious – where do you teach? (I might tell my kids to put the grandkids there!!!)

Gadgets --- both the bane and the real solution for the teaching quandry. We spend a lot of money on whiteboards and displays, computers, etc., but we give teachers very little training on how to maximize the use of them. I am a proponent of the Khan Academy approach – in fact, I’ve gone back and taken several refresher courses from them – and strongly believe that we need to turn each classroom into its own Khan Academy. You should be able to create a lesson plan (ONCE!), develop the corresponding lectures (ONCE), create the workbook (ONCE) and the measurement devices (ONCE). A lecture presented on the computer to each student, absorbed at the student’s rate, with questions that measure his comprehension (which is, in turn, used to determine the student’s direction – forward or back over the same info). When you couple that with interactive class discussion, you can reach children of varying learning methodologies.

Instead, we try to shoehorn technology into the current failed system, and are surprised why the system stays failed. Then, to even further exacerbate the problem, we then measure the new system using the same failed metrics and are further surprised when it fails.

It just may be time to throw the baby out with the bathwater and start over. We need smaller classes, more accurately targeting specific strata of students. We need upgraded tools, and tightly defined goals. We need specific criteria, both for student and teacher measurement, and we need to standardize requirements across the spectrum. Technology is the force multiplier that will do this.

But, again – thank you for the cogent comments.


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## Treeshepherd (Jan 3, 2017)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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We just entered the Digital Age, which has made information cheap and free-flowing. None of us can see exactly where and how the Digital Age will transform education.

The 20th century model of higher education is a massive brick and mortar institution that costs tens of thousands of dollars per year for the privilege to attend. That model only hangs on due to cultural lag.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jan 3, 2017)

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Just entered?  Virtual schools and computer-based learning has been around for almost 3 decades!  My first teaching job used computer-based remediation for a high school competency test, and that was over 20 years ago.

The rigor of these programs is especially suspect and students do not even retain the information.


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## Unkotare (Jan 3, 2017)

If there's one constant, it's that there is always someone sure they have "solved" the problem of the "failure" of education. It never works out that way. The attitude strikes me as similar to considering medicine a "failure" as long as some patients still die.


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## usmbguest5318 (Jan 5, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> What would you do to turn around our obviously malfunctioning education system?
> 
> All options are on the table --- what's your recommendations?



Stop passing people on to the next grade when they haven't earned the right to move on.  Some children will be "left behind" (or will remain, say, 7th graders, or 4th graders, or 10th graders, or whatever until they are 18)  Accept that reality and move on.
Go back to the grading scale that was used when I came along:
93-100 - A
85-92 - B
77-84 - C
70-77 - D

Teach children how to study.
Start teaching academics (reading, writing, counting, adding and subtracting) in the last year of pre-K, but without assigning actual grades for performance in that year.  Performance grading begin in kindergarten as does application of the basic skills introduced the year before.
Set core subjects' curricula for high school students equal to the content of what currently are deemed AP classes. (Being in school all year (see below), there's no reason they can't handle it.)

Cap teacher to student ratio at 15:1.  Even that is a lot when you consider that in the workplace, about six direct reports is reasonable, and ten is possible in a stretch...and there you're talking about adults who require anywhere near the amounts of supervision and close attention that children do, to say nothing of one's not actually teaching them things they absolutely don't know how to do at all..
Require Calculus BC (B- or better), Macro and Micro Economics (B or better averaged over both classes), Physics (C or better), English composition (B or better averaged over three years) and Statistics (B or better) as part of high school graduation requirements.
Confer high school diplomas only to students having a 2.7 or better GPA in core classes (all math, all science, all English composition taken in the 9th through 12th grades), and 2.0+ overall.
Offer early specialization options to students who upon completing the 10th grade have a 3.5 or higher overall GPA and a 3.8 or higher GPA in core classes.  Why?
Allows high performing students who don't like maths/science and who don't have an interest in pursuing a life that will call for them to not take them after algebra and geometry.
Less high performers need to continue to take the core classes because of the non-topic-specific skills - critical thinking, or a semblance of it, in particular - they build.

Scheduling:  
The following is just a rough outline.  There are myriad ways to flex it, but the point is that kids would be in school all year long, thereby giving them something purposeful to do all year long.  What this does is have typical students completing what we now think of as senior year of high school one year sooner.  That leaves the following year for them to take a job, travel, do internships/practica, volunteer for personal enrichment or to develop skills needed for work, or to start college if they want to.
Make school a year-round thing, and in addition to the current holidays and vacation breaks, put three one week breaks and one two week break in at various points during the year rather than clustering the bulk of them into the summer.  Parents work all year; school is just work for kids.
Christmas break - 12/24/xx and 1/2/xx (adds four days to the school year)

Align the school day with a standard work day so parents can drop off their kids before work and pick them up after work.
Teachers move around from classroom to classroom; students stay put in their classrooms
School Day: 8:30 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. -- This can be flexed in myriad ways.  The key is that the school day includes the semi-structured time after classes, but still in the school building where any resources they may need are available, when students can do their assignments, be it independently or with their friends.
Morning classes -- 8:30 - 10:10 (two 50 min. class sessions)
Mid morning 1/3 hour break
Late morning classes 10:30 - 12:10 (two 50 min. class sessions)
Lunch (45 minutes)
Early afternoon classes 1:00 - 2:40 (two 50 min. class sessions)
Mid afternoon 1/3 hour break
Late afternoon class (50 min.) and/or study hall (required, but study hall is shorter for kids who take a seventh class) & extracurriculars 3:00 - 7:00 
 - Students free to go at any time after 5:30 p.m., as per parental discretion
Study hall overseen by tutors - graduate/undergraduate students, retired professionals, and/or interested parties who have the subject matter knowledge needed to help studying students as needed.  Pay tutors if need be, but at lower hourly rates than teachers.  Teachers can elect to be tutors, but they'll have to agree to do it at the lower wage rate.  Think of the study hall as something like college professors' office hours.

Of course a more traditional class schedule but still having the on-site, required study hall period can work too.  Here are a couple samples, one with specific classes noted:








Here's a sample seventh grader's schedule, followed by some explanation, at a school near me.  The mandatory study hall I've suggested would just be tacked on at the end of the day.






Students generally arrive at school between 7:40 and 7:50 so that they can empty their backpacks into lockers and prepare for the first class.  The school day begins with silence in the homeroom or team at 8:00 am and runs until 3:30 pm except on Tuesdays, when school ends at 2:00 pm.  Students who arrive after the 8:00 bell are required to wait in a “late room” until silence ends.

The classes that all seventh and eighth graders take are Arts, English, a Modern or Classical Language, Math, Science, and Social Studies.  These are described in the following section.  Students follow a modified block schedule:  all classes meet three days a week, and each class meets for one additional long period each week.  Academic classes are scheduled between 8:15 and 2:00 each day (1:00 on Tuesday), and 7/8 students eat lunch at 11:00.

All 7/8 students go to PE class from 2:00 – 3:15 each day except Tuesday (1:00 - 2:00pm) and there is no PE on Fridays.  The PE period incorporates the athletics program, including practices and most games. 

All Middle School students attend Meeting for Worship in groups of varying sizes on Thursday mornings for approximately one-half hour.  The advisory curriculum is taught on Monday mornings.  There is a period for chorus and orchestra rehearsals on Wednesday afternoons, and the final period of each Friday is set aside for Middle School assemblies.


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## Spare_change (Jan 5, 2017)

Xelor said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > What would you do to turn around our obviously malfunctioning education system?
> ...



Excellent input. 

While I agree with the vast majority of your recommendations, I still believe that elimination of the arbitrary grade levels/promotions is the way to go. Put each student on a math (or whatever discipline) continuum, and teach him at the level at which he is performing, no matter his age.

How do you see the financial impact of your proposals?

I also noticed a reference to "worship", etc.(specifically, the seventh graders schedule model). Was that because it was in the model you were citing, or are you actually proposing generic/specific religious teaching?

Further, I did not see any reference to "trade" classes - typing, computers, woodworking, etc. Would you find a 'dual track' approach, dependent on student's interest/capabilities, or do you feel strongly about teaching everybody the same thru graduation?


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## usmbguest5318 (Jan 6, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> How do you see the financial impact of your proposals?



That's a hard question for me to answer with any real rigor because financial impact necessarily means measuring costs and gains.  There are too many dimensions that I've not carefully researched enough to offer a reasonably accurate and quantitative answer.

Costs:
Cost of direct schooling in terms of facilities, equipment, wages, and so on:  higher than it is now.  How much so?  I don't know.  Could be a lot (as an order of magnitude), but it might also not be a lot.
Where would the funding come from?   There are many ways to do that:  tax increases or tax revenue reallocation are the primary ones; however, creative financing and/or level setting could also be used.

Gains:
Quite simply, better educated kids are able to perform jobs that pay better.  Given that the U.S. has a shortage of sufficiently trained/skilled workers, having better qualified high school grads would go a long way to putting more people to work, and that would have the corresponding boost to the economy.  It may be that boost in personal incomes and the economy could ameliorate the blow of the higher overall costs, or it could fully offset them.
4 U.S. governors on jobs: Finding skilled workers is a problem

Employers can't find enough skilled labor to fill jobs

CLOSING THE SKILLS GAP

A Better Measure of Skills Gaps

Holding students back while also not keeping them past 18 years old, may help in fact lower costs as kids who don't matriculate remain in lower cost grades for longer periods of time.
Keeping kids in schools longer each day and all year reduces the mischief young people have the opportunity to wreak on society.  That is surely a cost savings, but I can't say how much it is.  To the extent it keeps kids from becoming full on delinquents, it may be a huge savings as we know the cost of putting a kid in juvenile detention is far higher than schooling them.
Keeping kids in schools ensures more of their day is supervised by adults, thus providing the structure they need to grow up with "better" values and sensibilities.  That almost certainly will translate into overall lower adult crime rates, but I can't quantify that.
Most, maybe all, the proposals I suggested contribute to making the task of educating children more effective and more efficient.  This may not actually lower costs, but it will help increase the return on the sums spent.
Other:  There are other factors, but the ones noted above should make clear the scope of what must be considered to answer your question.

As you can see, the question you've asked is no mean one.  I wish I could just punch a few numbers into a spreadsheet and come up with a number that is at least roughly - _i.e.,_ within $5B, give or take, on some metric -- county, state, federal, gender group, identity group, something - but I can't.  Even an answer that's "good enough to indicate closer examination is warranted" to your question is about six months' of real work for a small team.

I'm sorry I can't give a better answer.  I hope you understand that it's got nothing to do with not wanting to; I just don't have the data I'd need to do it.   (And, if I may be frank, it's more data than I'm willing right now to look for.  )



Spare_change said:


> I also noticed a reference to "worship", etc.(specifically, the seventh graders schedule model). Was that because it was in the model you were citing, or are you actually proposing generic/specific religious teaching?



"Worship" appeared because it is part of the curriculum at the school from which I copied the schedule.

FWIW, I'm fine with religion being taught, although in public schools, it needs to be comparative religion and/or philosophy, not theology (no matter the faith system).  (See page 28 here.  The school is Episcopal, and it offers a variety of dogmatic and secular religion classes.)




Spare_change said:


> Further, I did not see any reference to "trade" classes - typing, computers, woodworking, etc. Would you find a 'dual track' approach, dependent on student's interest/capabilities, or do you feel strongly about teaching everybody the same thru graduation?



I think there's room for trades as well.  The thing for me with trades being taught in school is that they are often taught as, and thought of, though they need not have intellectual rigor comparable to that of academic courses.  I'll offer a few brief analogies to explain what I mean by that.

In higher education, one can take a degree in a trade/profession or in an academic pursuit.  (Note:  "Theory" is below used in the scientific sense.)

Engineering degrees are merely applications of physics, chemistry, biology and math theory, depending on what type of engineering one studies.
Accounting and finance are applications of economics and math theory.
Marketing is an application of psychology, sociology, anthropology, and economic theory.
Acting is little but communication and psychological theory.
Computer science, despite the name, is an application of math and language theory.
Kinesiology is an application of biology, chemistry and a bit of physics theory.
Architecture is applied physics, geometry, psychology and art theory.
Law is applied philosophy.
I think of learning trades/professions as basically being interdisciplinary studies, but as such, they can present plenty of opportunity for students to develop the life-important critical thinking skills as can math or history.  So, if in, say, shop classes students are challenged to learn the relevant principles of geometry or physics (for instance) along with developing problem solving skills within a "building stuff" context, I'm fine with that.  If cooking classes include, say, the relevant biology, chemistry and physics principles, that works for me.  A good baker who understands the chemistry of baking can pretty well bake a good cake/pastry with a far wider range of ingredients because s/he'll know how they combine and interact under heat and varying temperatures.  That kind of knowledge leads to an allows for innovation and successful innovation leads to, well, success. 

What I would find unacceptable about teaching trades is doing so without including the theoretical underpinnings of the techniques being taught.  I have no desire to see schools cranking out students who are good for very little beyond putting square pegs in square holes.  I want to see schools churn out dynamic thinkers, no matter their area of proficiency.

You probably saw my comment about allowing adept students specialize early.  Students beginning to learn trades/professions far earlier than "normal" is part of what I had in mind with that.  (I had professions in mind, but trades would be fine too.)  The reason I put the "high achieving" requirement on allowing that avenue is that students that want, say, to be mechanics and who performed highly in algebra and geometry have about all the math they really have to have unless they want to go on to materials/mechanical/chemical engineering.  The "early specialization" route, however, need not preclude them from taking calculus, which they'd need for engineering, but they wouldn't have to take, say, European history or other liberal arts/humanities that aren't crucial to their desired field.

(Of course, I realize that one can call everything an application of natural sciences and math.  It still makes the point, but it's a huge oversimplification to broach it that way in this context.)


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## usmbguest5318 (Jan 6, 2017)

Before replying to specific remarks, I want to add that based on my observations of children's facility with computer "stuff," it's quite clear to me that kids are more than able to learn mechanical actions - how to solve a quadratic equation, how to "long" divide, how to compose standard grammar sentences, etc. -- at a far younger age than we current demand they do.  Given that observation, I think perhaps we should teach kids "rote" operations earlier and save the theory for far later, but still earlier than we do now.  For instance, I think children should be introduced to proofs in the seventh grade, the focus being on getting to develop and grow accustomed to structured thinking more so than being able to replicate the proofs. 

I think the same concept should be applied in all classes.  For example, in say earth science, I think that students should be tested to answer questions like this:

Based on your understanding of the metamorphic, igneous and sedimentary rock, which is better as a foundation for a skyscraper?  Why?
But what do our schools do?  They ask inane questions like this:

What kind of rock is shale?  
Sedimentary, 
Precambrian
Metamorphic
Conglomerate
Igneous

Kids don't need, in these days of the Internet, to memorize things and learn how to be good at memorizing.  They need to learn how to make sound inferences and "put two and two" together in a rational way.  They need to be problem solvers, not data regurgitators, which computers and the Internet does better than any human can.



Spare_change said:


> We group our kids, not by educational level, but by some arbitrary common model based on their age.



I think schools have as one of their key objectives preparing people for productive lives as adults.  As go public schools, however, what that means is in one's 18th year at the latest, school's over.  One may get a GED or something, but going to the little school building with all the other kids, well, that comes to an end.

As goes the practice of age tracking students, well, there's some good sense to that, at least I think so.  Here's why...Let the following be givens:

18 years old makes one an adult.
There is a body of knowledge and thinking skills that as a society we declare all adults should have.
The evidence that one has that minimum skillset/knowledge is a high school diploma.
Insofar as the required knowledge and skills must be mastered by a specific point in time, and the information has to be taught, simple planning says that "so much" needs to be taught by "this" point in time if  an individual is to have the time to master all the skills needed for a fruitful adulthood.  Among the most straightforward ways to define milestones is by year.

The dilemma for which I don't have a "new" solution is that of kids who fail to meet their milestones and get to the 12th grade with no way to earn a diploma that indicates they've mastered the required content.  Those individuals will just have to complete their education via the GED certificate.



Spare_change said:


> Frankly, our school system celebrates mediocrity, while playing lip service to excellence.



Well, I don't know about that.  I think there are schools in school systems that acquiesce to mediocrity.


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## Spare_change (Jan 6, 2017)

Xelor said:


> Before replying to specific remarks, I want to add that based on my observations of children's facility with computer "stuff," it's quite clear to me that kids are more than able to learn mechanical actions - how to solve a quadratic equation, how to "long" divide, how to compose standard grammar sentences, etc. -- at a far younger age than we current demand they do.  Given that observation, I think perhaps we should teach kids "rote" operations earlier and save the theory for far later, but still earlier than we do now.  For instance, I think children should be introduced to proofs in the seventh grade, the focus being on getting to develop and grow accustomed to structured thinking more so than being able to replicate the proofs.
> 
> I think the same concept should be applied in all classes.  For example, in say earth science, I think that students should be tested to answer questions like this:
> 
> ...



Well, ain't dat a bitch??? I agree with most of what you say, and the differences are in application, not in approach.

What can we argue about next? Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable?


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## Unkotare (Jan 7, 2017)

Xelor said:


> ...
> 
> I think the same concept should be applied in all classes.  For example, in say earth science, I think that students should be tested to answer questions like this:
> 
> ...




Kids are asked both types of questions. If you think a functioning memory (and strengthening of recall and retention) is not part of learning, you're crazy. What is your experience in education?


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## usmbguest5318 (Jan 7, 2017)

Unkotare said:


> Xelor said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



The following assumes your statements have nothing to do with the fact that one of the questions is multiple choice and the other is unaided recall.

Of course kids are asked both types of questions.
Do you think good answers to the first type of question do not require the student to have strong recall and retention?  
My issue is more that too often, IMO, test questions call students to regurgitate memorized/learned information rather than to consider the information they've memorized/learned and aptly apply it to solve a problem.  The issue I have with the second question is that even if the student answers it correctly, they've not shown that they have any awareness of the implications of shale being sedimentary.  Yes, of course, an instructor can wend their way to, over the course of several questions, getting to the "so what" of shale being sedimentary.

Personally, when I took exams, I strongly preferred essays and short answer questions to multiple choice ones.  I did because the last type didn't (usually, math was an exception) allow me to demonstrate the nature and extent of my subject matter mastery and it exposed me to a greater risk of misconstruing the question and thereby getting it wrong.  I preferred to receive credit for what I did know than to receive no credit for not remembering some minor detail that happened to be the focus of a multiple choice question.



Unkotare said:


> What is your experience in education?



Earned advanced degrees
Graduate teaching assistant (economics) - I once created a multiple choice exam for undergrads and decided it was too much trouble to do well.  From that point on, I stuck with "blue book" exams.  I felt that was better for the students as it allowed me to tell what they knew (or didn't) and provide constructive feedback.  In contrast,  students incorrectly choosing "D," if "D" is the wrong answer, doesn't lend itself to my furthering the teaching/learning objective; I have no way to tell why they chose "D."  I wonder if you think I'm crazy for thinking that way?
Everything pertaining to sending four kids to school/college and being an involved parent in that process
Adult instruction - I only ever developed multi choice questions for adult education.


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