# Riots in Tottenham



## alexa (Aug 7, 2011)

There has been massive riots in Tottenham, London after the police shot a local dead


BBC News - London police shooting: Dead man was minicab passenger

It appears that early peaceful protest exploded into riots and the burning of shops, police cars and other buildings.

26 police were injured.

BBC News - London unrest: Tottenham's 'anger' over police shooting

Although some people put this down to a small section from outside the community, there is also talk of the lack of trust and respect between police and the community similar to that of the 1980's


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 7, 2011)

There is always apologists when the animals riot and kill. My personal opinion is that when faced with unlawful mass riots the police should shoot to kill anyone being violent.


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## alexa (Aug 7, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> There is always apologists when the animals riot and kill. My personal opinion is that when faced with unlawful mass riots the police should shoot to kill anyone being violent.



Well you would be very unhappy in the UK.  We take killing someone very seriously.


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## Swagger (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't think RGS is suggesting indiscriminately gunning down protestors, I think. Though his reputation could yet pove me wrong.

Anyway... Am I reading the apparent condemnation and subsequent sympathy with the rioters wrongly? A man, armed with an illegal weapon, fired at the police. One policeman we understand from Friday's press only narrowly avoided serious injury when his radio deflected a bullet. The armed gunman was shot dead whilst firing at police. I'd say that justice has been done.

To condone, or even to try and understand, the position of those rioting and looting is completely illogical. To go further and try to give their actions some spurious international significance by suggesting this criminal activity is somehow related to, of a symptom of, the world wide financial crisis is to demonstrate a truly unbelievable moral relativism. Though it's funny how the rioters focus their (supposed) anger on the shops selling plasma TVs. I guess they need to keep up with the local news in HD.


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 7, 2011)

Anyone threatening a policeman's life in a riot should be shot. There are not enough cops EVER in a riot. No risk should be taken by several police to subdue a violent person when surrounded by hundreds of law breakers. Throw bricks, get shot, brandish a knife get shot. Tackle a cop get shot. You would be amazed how fast the riot ends if that starts happening.


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## alexa (Aug 7, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Anyone threatening a policeman's life in a riot should be shot. There are not enough cops EVER in a riot. No risk should be taken by several police to subdue a violent person when surrounded by hundreds of law breakers. Throw bricks, get shot, brandish a knife get shot. Tackle a cop get shot. You would be amazed how fast the riot ends if that starts happening.



He wasn't threatening a policeman's life in a riot.  Something which I am not sure of happened which apparently resulted in him being shot in a taxi but he had also fired at a policeman.

That is a separate issue to the riots which happened later. People are saying we will need to wait to see if this is an isolated incidence or whether it may give rise to copy cats in other areas of London.



> Tottenham forms the core of the borough of Haringey, where a fast-rising total of well over 10,000 people are claiming jobseeker's allowance. In Tottenham itself, recent government figures showed there were 54 people chasing each registered employment vacancy. It would be wrong and unfair to damn the place as a slough of blight and turpitude, but the long, main Tottenham High Road provides few obvious outward signs of prosperity.
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> Worklessness and its associated subcultures are becoming more deeply ingrained, with Tottenham and neighbouring Edmonton recently failing in a bid to be made a economic enterprise zone and attempts to regenerate the White Hart Lane area threatened by the desire of wealthy Tottenham Hotspur Football Club to move elsewhere.
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Tottenham riots: This could happen in a dozen boroughs | Dave Hill | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

There is talk that the rioters and looters came in from other areas.

The news is now reporting concern that there could be bodies in some of the buildings burnt.


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## alexa (Aug 8, 2011)

Last night the rioting spread to other areas including Brixton which was where the main '81 riots were (I was working there at the time)



> There has been a second night of rioting across London, with violence erupting in several of the capital's boroughs, from Brixton in the south to Enfield and Islington in the north and Walthamstow to the east.
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> What police are calling "copycat criminal activity"  some of it apparently part of an orchestrated plan  has so far resulted in 100 arrests.
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London riots spread south of Thames | UK news | guardian.co.uk

I would not be surprised if some of this was by organised gangs.

At the same time we saw from yesterday's link that these areas are full of the unemployed and youth gangs which cause the deaths of many innocent children.  They tried to get economic input but were refused.  The gangs are a disgrace to the UK. 

 A State has a responsibility to look out for all it's citizens.  To give them all hope and opportunities.  If not this kind of thing frequently happens....and history shows that, not any political viewpoint.


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## mudwhistle (Aug 8, 2011)

alexa said:


> There has been massive riots in Tottenham, London after the police shot a local dead
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> BBC News - London police shooting: Dead man was minicab passenger
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The story said an illegal firearm was found inside the cab and that it had been fired. A bullet was found in the radio of one of the police officers. Course the story didn't say that the dead passenger fired the shot. That would be circumstantial evidence.


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## L.K.Eder (Aug 8, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> There is always apologists when the animals riot and kill. My personal opinion is that when faced with unlawful mass riots the police should shoot to kill anyone being violent.




animals, huh?

nice one


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## alexa (Aug 8, 2011)

mudwhistle said:


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Yes, they mention that in the first video I left although clearly there is a lot to to the story. It seems the family, friends and other locals wanted to know what had happened and the police left them waiting too long and then things took off. A lot of people just heard by Chinese whispers and the area has many gangs and high unemployment making a volatile 'anti police' reaction more likely.

 Many locals are shocked at what has happened to their homes, shops and neighbourhood and for the first night it was suggested that people came in from nearby areas for the main looting and riotings.

Now you will see in my post previous to yours, last night saw several areas engage in 'copy cat' riots.

It does seem to be showing a situation which needs some attention in addition to all those who will be finding themselves in court today.


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 8, 2011)

alexa said:


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Deport the animals that are not citizens and next riot shoot to kill.


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## L.K.Eder (Aug 8, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


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what about the "animals", who are citizens?


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## alexa (Aug 8, 2011)

Uh Oh! *doubts are arising concerning the killing which set all this in motion*



> Doubts have emerged over whether Mark Duggan, whose death at the hands of police sparked the weekend's Tottenham riots, was killed during an exchange of fire .
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> The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on a bullet, found lodged in a police radio worn by an officer during Thursday's incident, suggested it was police issue  and therefore had not been fired by Duggan.*
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Doubts emerge over Duggan shooting as London burns | UK news | The Guardian


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 8, 2011)

L.K.Eder said:


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Laws should be passed allowing extraordinary police power to break up arrest and dismantle the gangs. All GANGS. You see England can do that they have no Bill of Rights.


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## Colin (Aug 8, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


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Wrong! We had a Bill of Rights before you did. In fact the drafting of the US version was drawn from the English Bill of Rights. It is part of British constitutional law!


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## tigerbob (Aug 8, 2011)

Colin said:


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I continue to find it surprising that so many theories are kicked around in the media.  We all know what the riots are about.  One issue with a potentially legitimate grievance leads to the opportunity for people with too much time on their hands and very little sense of common decency to smash windows, grab some free shit and throw stuff at people.  

Not the first time it's happened, (G8, poll tax) and probably not the last.  I saw an interview with a 14 year old claiming "we're getting our taxes back".  Firstly you don't pay taxes, secondly the damage you cause is often paid for by taxpayers and thirdly stealing from shops has nothing to do with taxes anyway.  Just another silly child who doesn't know her arse from her elbow wanting to say something plausible that legitimizes what she's doing, but not believing a word of what she's saying anyway.

My only hope is that the technology that has allowed the shit stirrers to mobilize a bunch of easily led sheep will also allow them to be tracked down.  There will be HUGE pressure on the likes of Twitter and Facebook from the authorities, and rightly so.  Plus of course the better resolution on mobile phone cameras will hopefully lead to a sticky end for a few.

Oh, and to one point that was made on this thread about a shoot to kill policy, simply not the way it's done in Britain, thank God.


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## California Girl (Aug 8, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


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Actually, as has been pointed out, England had a Bill of Rights long before we were even colonized. If I remember rightly, their's dates back to the 12th Century. I'm sure Colin or Bob will correct me if I have that wrong but I believe theirs is part of the Magna Carta.


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## tigerbob (Aug 8, 2011)

alexa said:


> There has been massive riots in Tottenham, London after the police shot a local dead
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> BBC News - London police shooting: Dead man was minicab passenger
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A good friend of mine (my ex flatmate) is in Tottenham.  He says it's all been very scary.

He also wants to know whether anyone needs a flat screen TV (with minor smoke damage).


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## tigerbob (Aug 8, 2011)

California Girl said:


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There is a Bill of Rights, but it is only one of several documents that make up what could be called the constitution of Britain.  They include, in no particular order, magna carta, the bill of rights, habeas corpus, and the parliament act.  There are others too but those are the ones I can name without too much thought.

If a country is just beginning (as America was all those years ago) it makes sense to pull everything into single documents (like your constitution and bill of rights).  In Britain's case not so much.  All the stuff's there already so messing around with it just to create a single, US-style document would be a bit of a waste of time.  So long as it's the law of the land I'm fine with it the way it is.

All of which is essentially a long winded way of saying you're right.


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## Colin (Aug 9, 2011)

California Girl said:


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The Bill of Rights was enacted in 1689. Magna Carta is the one dating back to the twelfth century.


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## California Girl (Aug 9, 2011)

Colin said:


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Ohhh, ok. Thanks! 

I must read up on that. I find British history really fascinating... I'm usually pretty good at it but I was definitely wrong on this one. LOL


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## Colin (Aug 9, 2011)

California Girl said:


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Check out Sir William Blackstone. His 'Commentaries on the Laws of England', published in 1766, had significant influence on the United states.


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

California Girl said:


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BTW Cali, if you struggle with the structure of the British political landscape, try picking up a copy of "Who runs this place" by Anthony Sampson.  Fabulous insight into who has power and who, just as importantly, is the power behind the throne.  Unbiased, easy to read and completely fascinating.


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## Full-Auto (Aug 9, 2011)

alexa said:


> There has been massive riots in Tottenham, London after the police shot a local dead
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> BBC News - London police shooting: Dead man was minicab passenger
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Lefties gone wild.

Rioting spreads across London, to 3 other cities - World news - msnbc.com

Cut my benies will ya.


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## 007 (Aug 9, 2011)

Yup... wonder how London is liking their diversity now...



> Gangs of looters - *who appeared to be teenagers and young adults from a range of different backgrounds* - raided hundreds of shops and businesses across London, making off with TVs and other electrical goods, cigarettes, clothes and alcohol.



Read more: LONDON RIOTS: David Cameron returns home as police face gangs with petrol bombs | Mail Online


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## editec (Aug 9, 2011)

These riots are a dream come true for those who support totalitarian versions of government.

When the bruhaha is over (and it will pass when the kids get tired and the police become more organized) you can count on *more public support* for an even more efficient BIG BROTHER _everybody's on camera_ police state.


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## Bill Scott (Aug 9, 2011)

Spade

A brilliant synopsis of the problem

well done

Bill Scott


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## editec (Aug 9, 2011)

Bad boys just want to have fun.

That's what this event is about, I suspect.


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

Pale Rider said:


> Yup... wonder how London is liking their diversity now...
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It's not just the people either.  Everyone's getting in on the act.

Sinet Internet Cafe's Photos - Wall Photos | Facebook


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## The Infidel (Aug 9, 2011)

alexa said:


> There has been massive riots in Tottenham, London after the police shot a local dead
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> BBC News - London police shooting: Dead man was minicab passenger
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*
London rioters: "Showing the rich we do what we want"*

BBC News - London rioters: &#039;Showing the rich we do what we want&#039;

Yep... its all about the police


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

The Infidel said:


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Just heard a teenage girl say that she's having fun rioting.  When asked why they were attacking people / places within their own community she opined "We're only targeting the rich.  You know, people who own businesses".



Yep, because the poor bloke who owns a corner shop and works from 6am til 10pm 7 days a week is clearly getting rich quick and easy.

I'm not a violent person, but I'd love to slap that little bitch's face for the way she's attempting to justify being a scumbag.  Then make her clean up the mess she's made.  And work for the shop owner for free to get an idea of the financial cost of her night of fun.

Alternatively, find someone who's worse off than her and allow them to rip off her stuff because she's "rich" compared to them.

Army, water cannon, tear gas, curfew.  Sooner the better. 

Come on Theresa May you spineless cow, get with the program.


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## The Infidel (Aug 9, 2011)

tigerbob said:


> Just heard a teenage girl say that she's having fun rioting.  When asked why they were attacking people / places within their own community she opined "We're only targeting the rich.  You know, people who own businesses".
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If ya listen to the beginning... they've been up drinking all night. "FREE ALCOHOL"

From who?

Bunch of punks


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## Andaluz (Aug 9, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


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No Bill of Rights? England had a Bill of Rights 100 years before the USA was founded. Education's a great thing.

Bill of Rights 1689 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or indeed, 550 years before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

Andaluz said:


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That BoR is not exactly the same thing as the US one.


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## The Infidel (Aug 9, 2011)

tigerbob said:


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Details details....


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

The Infidel said:


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What's in a name?


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## California Girl (Aug 9, 2011)

tigerbob said:


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In fairness to the Brits, our Constitution was formulated from your Magna Carta.


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## The Infidel (Aug 9, 2011)

California Girl said:


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yep....


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## alexa (Aug 9, 2011)

tigerbob said:


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Water cannon is apparently inappopriate according to the police - wouldn't work. The army is not appropriate because this is criminality not civil war. A curfew could be considered and apparently the police have been given the right to use rubber bullets.

Watching the Turkish area of London on newsnight tonight.  They are having none of it and chased the would be looters out and are now guarding their premises themselves but London has had 16,000 police on duty tonight and very little problems.

Manchester clearly just had a night of organised crime.  Small gangs moving about even with leaders telling them time to move on as the police would soon be coming.  

Watching newsnight they had a mixture of people who do believe there is a reason though also saw the rioting/looting as just that and people who just used words scum, no reason and so on. Everyone is agreed the first thing is law and order must be restored. Harriet Harman has just said on Newsnight she believes there are issues which do then  need to be sorted.

Basically the right wing want to say there is nothing underneath this.  They just can't bear to think that. I actually find that as frightening. This guy on the tv cannot even hear Harriet Harman say repeatedly she totally denounces what has happened. She finds it totally unacceptable

Now they want to know why there has been no rioting in Scotland  

Guy from Ed University believes it is because we have not yet felt the full force of the cuts and our Politicians are seen as more caring of the people.  At the same time we have the same gross social inequality, marginalised youth and the dispossessed and it was also suggested that because we have less racial diversity, we have not been challenged where it is perceived England's police have a history of being racist.

They spoke of how people are going nuts if anyone suggests it could be anything other than mindless violence and how anyone who suggests this is being  condemned.  The panel in Scotland believe this does have a base reason of youth seeing no future. This is a reflection of people who are marginalised in society.  That's what they believe even if how this is being expressed is, as it is, through mindless violence.

They wait to see whether we get started but are hopeful it will not spread here.


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

California Girl said:


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It was indeed.  And a damn poor job Britain does of making a big deal about it too.  

If you go to Runnymede (where MC was signed), there is nothing at all to commemorate its signing.  Well, nothing that the Brits put there anyway.  There is a monument erected and paid for by the American Bar Association though!  Wy wife was astonished when she saw it.

I've always thought it particularly sad that a foreign country should do more to recognize the significance of a piece of British history than Britain itself does.  Makes me think of Jimmy Cagney's line as George M. Cohan:  "Good job I wasn't born English.  With the history their flag has I'd have waved myself to death!", or words to that effect (it's been a long time since I saw Yankee Doodle Dandy - great film).


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## The Infidel (Aug 9, 2011)

Thought this was a sad story...

London riots 2011: Croydon's House of Reeves razed to the ground | Mail Online


Guess  owner Maurice Reeves was just one of those evil rich people


*
Heartbroken: Reeves furniture store owner Maurice Reeves arrives today at the store's ruined 140-year-old building in Croydon*






*
Before and after: Reeves furniture store just a short while before the riots, and right, engulfed in flames*

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-House-Reeves-razed-ground.html#ixzz1UZgtMYPq


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

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Thanks for the info.  God, I miss Newsnight.  For some reason you can get BBC programming streamed pretty much everywhere in the world except the US.

Interestingly, I saw an interview this morning on BBC America (about noon London time) with a youth worker from Southeast London who had some very firm views on this, such as:

- British youth has, for the last 20 years, been told frequently about their rights but not about their responsibilities.
- It is quite revealing that someone has to suggest to parents that keeping their kids in during a riot might be a good idea.  In other countries this request would not have to be made (which I guess agrees to an extent with the observations you posted regarding the Turkish community).
- The police, having spent many years being pilloried by the press have effectively been neutered to the point where they don't want to wade into rioters with truncheons for fear of appearing overly aggressive.
- Ask schoolteachers why it is so difficult to keep order in classrooms and you will hear them respond that disciplining students frequently leads to accusations, picked up in the press and often pursued through the courts, that it is the teachers who are at fault.

I found it very odd to hear this coming from a Youth Worker.

BTW, the term 'British Youth' was his description, not mine.  I suspect he used it euphemistically.


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> Thought this was a sad story...
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> London riots 2011: Croydon's House of Reeves razed to the ground | Mail Online
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Yes, I saw the interview with him.  Terribly sad.


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## alexa (Aug 9, 2011)

tigerbob said:


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That is a very common objection and has validity.  However the rights they, or the underclass this is referring to, are told about are rights to stand up for themselves and not take being put down.  What is missed in this argument is that the tow-rags, and they usually are, who go around being a pain and talking of their rights, frequently have few opportunities. Like it or not since Thatcherism, this country has had an underclass.



tigerbob said:


> - It is quite revealing that someone has to suggest to parents that keeping their kids in during a riot might be a good idea.



Yes. I don't know why.  I only know what I have seen on documentaries on places where people are hemmed in with gangs. There it can be difficult for the parents to keep their kids under control because the kids can be more scared of the gang than the parents - even scared that their parents might be hurt and the parents themselves can be scared of the gangs but obviously there are a multiple of possible reasons for this which do need investigating because it kind of goes, as you said, against the natural way of things. People are being too quick to put things in boxes



tigerbob said:


> In other countries this request would not have to be made (which I guess agrees to an extent with the observations you posted regarding the Turkish community).



It is more about area than country. The Turks live in the Turkish area not gang land.  Basically what they did was 'wrong'.  The police should have dealt with it.  I had to admire them though.



tigerbob said:


> - The police, having spent many years being pilloried by the press have effectively been neutered to the point where they don't want to wade into rioters with truncheons for fear of appearing overly aggressive.



The Scottish policeman on Newsnight said the police were restrained because if they had not been there almost certainly would have been more violence and deaths.  More police tonight resolved that problem.



tigerbob said:


> - Ask schoolteachers why it is so difficult to keep order in classrooms and you will hear them respond that disciplining students frequently leads to accusations, picked up in the press and often pursued through the courts, that it is the teachers who are at fault.



This is a gross generalisation and I am not sure there are grounds for it.  Generally speaking a school is as good as it's head teacher.



tigerbob said:


> I found it very odd to hear this coming from a Youth Worker.



Youth leaders come from all political spectrum's. They also vary in their ability.  He seems to have presented a pretty stereotypical right wing damming of British society .



tigerbob said:


> BTW, the term 'British Youth' was his description, not mine.  I suspect he used it euphemistically.



and that is a clue that he is not to be trusted.  Maybe a minority of our youth have problems.  To present this as 'British Youth' shows he has no respect for them.


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## California Girl (Aug 9, 2011)

alexa said:


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For a 'social scientist', you don't seem overly well informed about your own society. Your country has had an underclass long before Thatcher.... in fact, you can go back centuries and find an underclass in Britain. 

Had you paid any attention to what I've said about this situation.... I've said this country needs to stop trying to force kids into a higher education system that they cannot succeed in and give them apprenticeships and vocational courses... and you all need to respect tradespeople as much as the 'educated' graduates. You need to give these kids the opportunity to earn some self respect. I blame people like you - not liberals but social scientists for advising governments to force square pegs into round wholes. 

And.... you need to teach kids that with rights come responsibilities. Hundreds if not thousands of people have lost their jobs, and their homes because of these brats.


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## tigerbob (Aug 9, 2011)

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I agree that Britain has an underclass, but cannot agree with the inference that it didn't exist before Thatcherism.  

It existed before the formation of the NHS, over 50 years ago.  It existed before national insurance was established, which I believe was over 100 years ago.  Blaming the existence of an underclass on Mrs Thatcher is facile.

And despite the existence of an underclass, Britain as a whole still provides its youth with better healthcare, benefits, education and opportunity that almost any other country in the world.

As to the political motivations of the youth leader I mentioned, it was not so much the fact that he said what he did as the fact that he was about 25 years old and black that surprised me.  Young black males are generally not core bedrock for the right.  I accept that this is a generalization, but that doesn't make it untrue.


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## waltky (Aug 9, 2011)

Granny says shame on `em, shame, shame on dem hooligans...

*Riots: Manchester and Salford disorder brings 'shame on streets'*
_9 August 2011 - Tony Lloyd, Labour MP for Manchester Central: "I deplore this appalling criminal activity"_


> Hundreds of rioters have brought "shame on the streets of Salford and Manchester", Greater Manchester's assistant chief constable has said.  Fire bombs have been thrown at shops and looters have stolen clothes, electrical items and alcohol.  ACC Garry Shewan said: "This has been senseless violence and senseless criminality of a scale I have never experienced in my career before."  Police have arrested 47 people and Mr Shewan said more would follow.
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> Councillor Pat Karney, of Manchester City Council, said the violence marked "one of the worst days that Manchester has ever seen".  He said youths aged from nine had been on the rampage through the city centre.  Council workers were already starting on the clean-up operation in the city, he said.  Mr Shewan added: "Over the past few hours, Greater Manchester Police has been faced with extraordinary levels of violence from groups of criminals intent on committing widespread disorder.
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See also:

*UK riots: Trouble erupts in English cities*
_9 August 2011 - Police try to manage masked youths in Manchester_


> Sporadic violence has broken out in several cities around England, although London remained largely quiet with a heavy police presence on the streets.  With 16,000 police officers deployed in London, the streets remained calm after three previous nights of rioting.
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> But there was unrest in Manchester, Salford, Liverpool, Wolverhampton, Nottingham, Leicester and Birmingham with shops being looted and set alight.  The PM is recalling Parliament over Monday night's "sickening scenes".
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## alexa (Aug 10, 2011)

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Well before the formation of the 'welfare state' which was actually about 66 years ago we had the Working class and some who fell beneath that, the destitute.  Workhouses were erected to stop people needing to look at the dying in the street and people could enter them, be separated from their families and be put to hard work in return for the most basic food. It would however be wrong to consider the destitute as a particular underclass as they were out of work people belonging to the working class.

Life was indeed very hard and for many reasons, not least fear of revolution which we came very near to after WW1, after WW2 the Welfare State was created with the intention of offering equal opportunities to all as well as free health services, a commitment to full employment and certain benefits as a right.

The period from 1945 to 1980 saw the biggest change in British society ever. For the first time people whose parents had always worked down the mine or similar got themselves a University education and a job in the professions. Social mobility was a possibility if you worked for it.  Not any more




> *Disturbing finding from LSE study - social mobility in Britain lower than other advanced countries and declining *
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> * In a comparison of eight European and North American countries, Britain and the United States have the lowest social mobility
> * Social mobility in Britain has declined whereas in the US it is stable
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Disturbing finding from LSE study - social mobility in Britain lower than other advanced countries and declining - 2005 - News archive - News - News and media - Home

Here is another report by the Guardian

OECD: UK has worse social mobility record than other developed countries | Business | guardian.co.uk

Now that is the situation which comes from Thatcherism.  An end to social responsibility, ruthless destruction of jobs without seeing the need to replace them, cutting of benefits so that those who found themselves stuck with no job or possibility of a job were advised by their Unions to claim incapacity because that was the only way they could survive. Once on the incapacity people did not want to come off it for a little work because that would show they were not sick.   Areas with no hope develop where people get used to no hope for the future.  



> concept of the underclass is put forward by British Labour MP Frank Field. He claimed that poverty is increasing in Britain, and that there is a growing underclass made up of (1) the long-term unemployed, (2) single-parent families; (3) elderly pensioners. This group is characterized by being reliant on state benefits that are too low to give them an acceptable living standard, and have no chance of escaping from reliance on state-benefits. *The causes of the development of this "underclass" are rising levels of unemployment, changes in government policy under Thatcher, which have widened the gap between the rich and the poor, and changes in the public attitude to poverty, with an increase in the tendency to blame the poor for their poverty.* In general he argues that Thatcher reversed the long-term trend in British social history towards the development of rights, and that the underclass are trapped by the lack of rights. The Thatcher regime (1979 - 1990) removed the link between pensions and average wages; sick pay was phased out in 1980; child benefit was frozen in 1987 and 1988. *The increase in means-tested benefits under Margaret Thatcher's successor as Prime Minister, John Major increased dependency and created a poverty trap. All in all, the gap between the rich and the poor increased during the period of Conservative government (1979 - 1997). Thus Field blames government policy for the creation of an underclass, and therefore argues that changes in government policy will reverse the trend. (1)*




Theories of Poverty: The Underclass, Frank Field - Losing Out

People are stuck in this because of no social mobility and no economic regeneration put into the areas needed.


When you add to that that Unions no longer provide the social networking they once did we have an underclass not properly addressed by anyone.  Negative consequences of this are ganglands arising in some estates and rise in the popularity of the BNP and EDL among others.

Prior to Thatcher, the Conservative Party was a patriarchal party who believed we were One Nation and we had a responsibility to each other.  Thatcher following Friedman believed we were all psychotic Robinson Cruseos caring only for ourself with no responsibility for others.  Is it particularly surprising that this appears to have created a society with little social cohesion? Something Cameron himself has noticed.




tigerbob said:


> And despite the existence of an underclass, Britain as a whole still provides its youth with better healthcare, benefits, *education and opportunity* that almost any other country in the world.



No you are wrong.  Without social mobility you cannot say people have opportunity. Regarding education



> The researchers concluded: 'The strength of the relationship between educational attainment and family income, especially for access to higher education, is at the heart of Britain's low mobility culture and what sets us apart from other European and North American countries.'



http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2005/LSE_SuttonTrust_report.aspx



tigerbob said:


> As to the political motivations of the youth leader I mentioned, it was not so much the fact that he said what he did as the fact that he was about 25 years old and black that surprised me.  Young black males are generally not core bedrock for the right.  I accept that this is a generalization, but that doesn't make it untrue.



You are expecting a particular stereotype because he was black.  He did not fit your perceived stereotype.  Plenty of black men here are right wing. More importantly you are wrong if you believe the people stuck in this underclass are all black. It does not have anything to do with race.


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## sparky (Aug 10, 2011)

California Girl said:


> For a 'social scientist', you don't seem overly well informed about your own society. *Your country has had an underclass long before Thatcher*.... in fact, you can go back centuries and find an underclass in Britain.
> 
> Had you paid any attention to what I've said about this situation.... I've said this country needs to stop trying to force kids into a higher education system that they cannot succeed in and give them apprenticeships and vocational courses... and you all need to respect tradespeople as much as the 'educated' graduates. You need to give these kids the opportunity to earn some self respect. I blame people like you - not liberals but social scientists for advising governments to force square pegs into round wholes.
> 
> And.... you need to teach kids that with rights come responsibilities. Hundreds if not thousands of people have lost their jobs, and their homes because of these brats.



well whadda ya know, we've a bona fide* RW classist *here

_my my,_ maybe i should buy a lotto tix today?
~S~


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## tigerbob (Aug 10, 2011)

alexa said:


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We're going to have to agree to disagree on most of these.  

1.  I know plenty of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who by hard work and flexibility have greatly improved their standard of living and their prospects.  The term 'social mobility' is a unicorn, a mythical creature used to try and turn statistical observation into socio-scientific fact.  It is the classic lamp post for drunks that Andrew Lang first described so many years ago.

2.  The correlation between family income and educational attainment is an issue everywhere.  Those who live in lower income areas generally have lower quality schooling.  That's a global thing not a British thing.  On the other hand, when I look at the costs of higher education in the US compared to the costs in Britain, there is no comparison.  You can get a BA in Britain for £10k.  Try that in America and see how far it gets you.  My wife worked 2 jobs while putting herself through college and it took her 10 years more to pay off her college loans.  Now she wonders why it is that people today, who get so much more opportunity than she ever did for so much less effort, still complain about not getting enough help and want to blame 'society' for not giving them enough opportunity, as though opportunity should come in a personally addressed, gilt-edged envelope.

3.  You're extrapolating my observation about the youth leader into a supposed position that I believe that all people in the underclass are black.  That's neither what I said nor what I meant, and I assume you are aware of that.

4.  There is a big difference between the Thatcherite mantra of 'self-reliance', and the darker, more sinister description of 'not caring for anyone else' that you ascribe to it.  In effect, you are throwing away all the positive elements of such a worldview (self-sacrifice, hard work, motivation) and focusing only on the negative (self-satisfaction, selfishness).  I believe both exist, and the extent to which one dominates the other depends entirely on the individual.

It seems clear we're not going to agree on this.  That's OK.  It's actually refreshing to be able to have a conversation and disagree with somebody without it turning into a food fight.


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## alexa (Aug 10, 2011)

tigerbob said:


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## Toro (Aug 10, 2011)

Spurs won't be selling Modric now!


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## Swagger (Aug 10, 2011)

Toro said:


> Spurs won't be selling Modric now!



No, indeed they won't. Instead they'll be signing the new Italian striker, Grabatelli.


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## tigerbob (Aug 10, 2011)

alexa said:


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