# Hate Speech In Germany



## Madeline (Sep 2, 2010)

Holy shit.

Bundesbank official's comments, condemned as racist, open debate on immigration in Germany | cleveland.com


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## hipeter924 (Sep 3, 2010)

Nazism was snuffed out right? I guess not. Say hello to the return of Nazi Germany.


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

Unbelievable, hipeter.  First France and now Germany?  WTF is going on in Europe?


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## Tank (Sep 3, 2010)

Muslims make nazis look like girl scouts.


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## hipeter924 (Sep 3, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Unbelievable, hipeter.  First France and now Germany?  WTF is going on in Europe?


Fascists vs Islamists vs Socialists (aka civil war)


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## ekrem (Sep 3, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Unbelievable, hipeter.  First France and now Germany?  WTF is going on in Europe?



Federal Bank has already fired him, German President Wulff has to confirm, which he will do. 
With France you probably mean the "Roma" subject, that is indeed a shame as it is state-policy. 
The Sarazzin subject is on a different level, as it is a personal view. 
Like Spiderman's uncle said: With great power comes great responsibility.
He overstretched, now he is gone.

Many of his arguments in his books have been disproved in the public in Germany. 
For example in his book he claimed, that 20% of crime in Berlin is done by Muslims. 
Yesterday there was political talk-show on State Television, they read an official letter by Police Chief of Berlin. The letter said, that Muslim crime rate in Berlin is 8.7 % of total.

Such things you do not do as member of Federal State Bank.


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

Thank you, ekrem.


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## ekrem (Sep 3, 2010)

Berlin's polpulation = 3.442.675 Million.
Muslims in Berlin = 220.000 (*6.3 %*) - 300.000 (*11.4 %*) according to Berlin federal senate.
Berlin Police says, that Muslim crime rate is *8.7 %* of all crime. 

Sarazzin claims *20%* in his book. He tries to imply that Muslims in Berlin are more violent then the others. 


Sources: 
(220.000 - 300.000 Muslims) 
Integrations-Studie - Muslime sind stolze Berliner - aber keine Deutsche - Berlin Aktuell - Berliner Morgenpost - Berlin

Berlin Population
Berlin ? Wikipedia

Data by Berlin Police given in yesterday's political talk-show on German State Television.


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## ekrem (Sep 3, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Thank you, ekrem.



The economy in Germany is recovering. 
There won't be ethnic groups deported like in France, or minarets banned like in Switzerland.
There is always a connection between economy and resentiments against immigrants.


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## germanguy (Sep 3, 2010)

Hi there,

just to add some background:

Theo Sarrazin (btw: this guy´s last name implies by ethymology, that he is of Sarazen origin, means of muslim origin. Lot´s of french Hugenots were and immigrated to Brandenburg in the 17th century - funny, isn´t it ?) is a board member of the Bundesbank, our version of the Fed. He was before this a high ranking public service official, secretary of finance in Berlin and is member of the Social Democratic Party (= Center Left)

He has written a book called "Deutschland schafft sich ab" (reads as Germany disposes itself).

In this book he states several problems of immigration and non-integration of immigrants.
Also, he argues, that the muslim faith hinders immigrants to integrate themselves. Also, as the Muslims tend to be less educated, but have more children, the more stupid muslims will outnumber the Germans in 100 years. The average birthrate of Germans is 1.4 children, that of immigrants is 2.1. Problem is, that a population does not grow in a linear progression. According to this model, starting in 1890, Germany would now have 250 million citizens. Correctly there are now 81 million, thanks to contraceptives, two wars and lower birthrates.

Problem with this debate is, that Mr Sarrazin loves to provoke, raises a legitimate subject (yes, immigration causes problems), but messes all up by stating, that there are certain biological factors, which causes immigrants to be less intelligent. Also, there is a jewish Gen, which helps the Jews to be more intzelligent bankers. Hmpf. 

So, what happens is, that this subject is debated quite heated. Rightly so, but in a wrong and non-constructive way. 

But actually this is a mild storm compared to what FOX et al. sometimes blows into the airwaves.

The White Middle Class in the West fears dramatic changes , so we hear now the reaction.

regrds 
ze germanguy


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

Thankies, german guy.

Sorry to have been alarmed.  Cleveland has a large German and eastern European (descent) population and so, the Plain Dealer watches that part of Europe more closely than maybe another city's paper would.  I'm sure it isn't the most balanced reporting but I cannot read German.

BTW, are the Oktoberfests we so love here authentic, do ya think?


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## Tech_Esq (Sep 3, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Berlin's polpulation = 3.442.675 Million.
> Muslims in Berlin = 220.000 (*6.3 %*) - 300.000 (*11.4 %*) according to Berlin federal senate.
> Berlin Police says, that Muslim crime rate is *8.7 %* of all crime.
> 
> ...



That immigrant Muslims are more violent than the native population is not a cliam limited to this man or to Germany. This claim has been made in most Scandanavian countries in recent years. I suppose they could all be lying about it though.


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

> Tech_Esq wrote:
> 
> That immigrant Muslims are more violent than the native population is not a cliam limited to this man or to Germany. This claim has been made in most Scandanavian countries in recent years. I suppose they could all be lying about it though.



Well, I'm not sure how you'd measure and compare rates of violence, but I have little trouble believing that a poor family that moved from Iran to Switzerland might have serious adjustment issues and that these might include adapting to the new country's laws about domestic violence, etc.  I'm not sure where such a belief gets you, though.  Prohibitting minarets seems like the wrong way to address the problem to me.


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## Tech_Esq (Sep 3, 2010)

germanguy said:


> Hi there,
> 
> just to add some background:
> 
> ...



Thanks GermanGuy. Interesting prospective.

I happen to be reading Mein Kampf right now. I've stayed away from it up until now because I've always heard it was a chore to read and what kind of insight do you really need about Hitler at this point?

Anyway, I have found the first hundred or so pages interesting. Hitler describes the world of his youth (Vienna and Munich) and the politics of the time and place. The reason I bring it up is because I hear echos of his concerns in your descriptions. I'm guessing this is a German cultural thing. 

I do think that Europeans have allowed themselves to get behind the curve on this issue. You've allowed your "liberalism" and "tolerance" to blind you and bind you to the point of inaction while a group who cares nothing for you, your culture or your people insert themselves very strongly and begin to take root. You are a tree that has been beset by a powerful and choking vine. If you allow it to continue unchecked, you will soon be foreigners in your own country. A truly absurd result, nevertheless, a very real future if you look at what your new Muslim neighbors expect. Islam is a not just a religion but a full-featured way to live encompassing all aspects of one's life. They will not long tolerate your separate governing bodies or courts. 

With any luck, we'll take notice of the victimization of Europe and ensure that we prevent such things from happening in this country.


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

Good grief, Tech_Esq.  You feel it is utterly hopeless that Muslim immigrants will eventually assimilate into German society?  WTF do people move to Germany then?


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## Tech_Esq (Sep 3, 2010)

Madeline said:


> > Tech_Esq wrote:
> >
> > That immigrant Muslims are more violent than the native population is not a cliam limited to this man or to Germany. This claim has been made in most Scandanavian countries in recent years. I suppose they could all be lying about it though.
> 
> ...



Well, a little wife beating and some rape. I guess we shouldn't begrudge these fine fellows that, right? I mean it's all for the greater good, right? Think of all we get out of the deal. Well, they get, at any rate.

Gang rapes and robberies on the rise

Norway: Muslim Gang Rapes Continue - Jihad Watch

I don't think anyone is talking about prohibiting minerets. The subject is preserving a country's culture. New people are free to peacefully visit and not assimilate or permanently stay and assimilate. They should not be free to come, stay permanently and change everything so it is like they want it and you can go to hell if you don't like it.

This last is intolerable and should not be allowed to begin. Europe and Scandanavia did not see this coming. Now, they are behind the curve and must fight to keep their culture and country.


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## Tech_Esq (Sep 3, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Good grief, Tech_Esq.  You feel it is utterly hopeless that Muslim immigrants will eventually assimilate into German society?  WTF do people move to Germany then?



They move there for work. Germany is the economic engine of Europe.

You haven't lived in Europe have you?


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

You got me. I have never even visited Europe.  

I had/have a friend who lives in France.  He told me years ago, whole neighborhoods in Paris were becoming impassable for women in western garb.  And back in the day, Detroit had a sizable Arab population that was no picnic to cope with either.

But Tech_Esq, how is this different from other culture clashes?  Surely by the time these immigrant families have had grandchildren, assimilation has largely occurred.


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## SW2SILVER (Sep 3, 2010)

I live with immigrants, these  people don't respect the  host culture. Please, they have twice as many kids as the norm, or what they can reasonably afford in a developed country. Now add to that, ISLAM. Please. Islam is no friend to west or liberal causes. Why allow this insanity? Hate speech? Please don't exaggerate. They HATE us. That is no exaggeration.


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## Tech_Esq (Sep 3, 2010)

Madeline said:


> You got me. I have never even visited Europe.
> 
> I had/have a friend who lives in France.  He told me years ago, whole neighborhoods in Paris were becoming impassable for women in western garb.  And back in the day, Detroit had a sizable Arab population that was no picnic to cope with either.
> 
> But Tech_Esq, how is this different from other culture clashes?  Surely by the time these immigrant families have had grandchildren, assimilation has largely occurred.



I think the primary problem is that you are envisioning Muslim families immigrating to these countries and usually, that's not the case. Instead you have many young men immigrating and not so many families. That explains part of the disconnect.

The reason why this is different from other culture clashes is because of the demands of the Muslim's religion. Christian, Jewish and other religions do not have the features that Islam has, so they are not comparable. If you were a Muslim and your religion commanded you to obey laws as prescribed in your faith, wouldn't you? If it said the courts had to have a certain character or not be within the faith, wouldn't you seek it where ever you went? Of course you would. We are the ones being ridiculous if we tell ourselves they won't or wouldn't. It's their faith. They have to or they would be acting against their faith.

We are advised to take the proper measures to maintain our culture against this potential threat.


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

Yeah, but couldn't you have said pretty much all that about Chinese immigrants to the US, or Vietnamese, or even Latin?

Mebbe these countries would be better off trying to reduce the numbers of single men who immigrate.  That HAS to be a source of friction...they can't think they're gonna marry western women, can they?


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## Tech_Esq (Sep 3, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Yeah, but couldn't you have said pretty much all that about Chinese immigrants to the US, or Vietnamese, or even Latin?
> 
> Mebbe these countries would be better off trying to reduce the numbers of single men who immigrate.  That HAS to be a source of friction...they can't think they're gonna marry western women, can they?



Oh no. Far different than mere cultural differences. You leave your country, you leave all of the pieces and apparatus of your country behind. But with Islam, you take it with you. 

If you're Chinese, you may be a Buddist. Buddism does not include a court system. If you are Morrocan, you're probably a Muslim. Islam does include a court system and many other important aspects of daily life.

No silly, they don't want to marry western women, they're Infidels. They want to rape them and put them in their place.


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## Madeline (Sep 3, 2010)

Please be patient with my ignorance here, Tech_Esq.  

What court system?  Something more than the Rabbinical Courts some Jews use?


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## SW2SILVER (Sep 3, 2010)

Turks out breed  native Germans. They are Muslim. Let's flip this it's head. Suppose Westerners fled to Saudi Arabia instead. Muslims would NEVER allow that.  Please. Liberals must know that ISLAM is the enemy of freedom. They would stone their opponents to death. They hate the west. They hate YOU.


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## SW2SILVER (Sep 3, 2010)

Muslims won't assimilate, that IS the problem. THEY won't. What PROOF do you have they will, Madeline?


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## ekrem (Sep 6, 2010)

SW2SILVER said:


> Turks out breed  native Germans. They are Muslim. Let's flip this it's head. Suppose Westerners fled to Saudi Arabia instead. Muslims would NEVER allow that.  Please. Liberals must know that ISLAM is the enemy of freedom. They would stone their opponents to death. They hate the west. They hate YOU.



Look, till the year 2000 Germany defined citizenship by blood-law. That changed.
Before that Immigrants were just considered "guest-workers" who will go. 
After 40 years, the Germans have realized, that the "guest-workers" are there to stay, and many of them are there in the 3rd or 4th generation. 
Now they finance integration programmes through federal budget and Integration has become key part of German Policy. It's moving in the right direction.

German President Wulff, who has been appointed in July 2010 has declared his primary goal of his presidency the Integration subject. 
There are off course resentiments in Germany, but at the end of the day the German will tell you, that he is happy that the majority of Muslims in Germany consists of Turks and not of Africans or South-Asians.

A German user in military-forum:


> the situation in germany is way better then in france for example
> all those moroccans, algerians and black africans there... we can be happy that we have mainly turks



European & Russia Defence Forum: Ethnic Germans and Immigrants On Better Terms Than Expected

63% of Muslims in Germany are Turks.
Turks in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The greatest problems, Germans have with Turks is their bondage with home-country. The Turkish state will organize afternoon school-classes for grade 1 to 8, sending teachers to Germany. 
The mosques the Turks visit are mostly State mosques of Turkey, as are the Imams State bureaucrats of Turkish State. The problem some Germans have is the influence a foreign state has over the biggest immigration group in Germany. They fear manipulation like Jews are manipulating USA into unquestioned pro-Israel direction.

And there is off course progress. On most mosques now flies the German flag. 
And Turks also are beginning to identify with German flag, allthough they have made Turkish version out of it, placing into the red parts of German Flag the crescent and star.

The Federal Institute for Political Education says in its 277th Edition, that Turks have become heterogen, that it is not anymore possible to make benchmarks of "Turkish intergration in Germany".
Türkische Minderheit in Deutschland - Informationen zur politischen Bildung (Heft 277)

As the CSM (Chr. Science Monitor) says, most of Eurabia literature is being written in USA. Keep it for yourself, we don't read it.


Merkel has protected the Turks and said, that Sarrazin's arguments are absurd. 
Migrationsdebatte: Merkel nimmt in Deutschland lebende Türken in Schutz - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik
She always says, that she also wants to be Chancellor of the Turks. 
Somehow the Turks also have affronted the politicians. 
When Turkish Prime Ministers visit Germany, it is always a mass event. 
German State news then will report about it under headlines like:
*"The Führer comes to Germany"*
It's not easy to be raised as Turkish male. From beginning the family will indoctrinate you with nationalism and being a good patriot Turk.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkqeVpInc8k]YouTube - LIDERi Erdogan oder der "Führer" kommt nach Köln[/ame]


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## California Girl (Sep 6, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Unbelievable, hipeter.  First France and now Germany?  WTF is going on in Europe?



It isn't just France and Germany.... The 'far right' (and by that I don't mean what the drooling hordes on here refer to as 'far right'... I mean the real far right - the likes of Storm Front) parties are becoming increasingly popular. 

Begrudgingly, I have to say - having watched them - I'm impressed with their ability to hide their hatred and put on a 'patriotic' front instead of the drooling nationalism that they used to use. 

The reasons for the rise? It's a complex issue, but, at its most fundamental level, I think that political correctness is responsible for a lot of it. In Europe, they have immigrants being given houses, and benefits, when the indigenous people get nothing. People come in to England and get given a house, money, etc and young people can't get work, can't afford to buy a home, can't affort to rent.... etc. They are told 'don't put up Christmas decs in case you offend a foreigner'. They can't fly their national flag in case they offend a foreigner. Their law enforcement and government agencies spend millions of taxpayers money making sure that people who can't speak the language can access public services. 

In the UK, known radical muslim preachers are given houses, he - and his family are paid for by the taxpayer - and he is telling his fellow Muslims to attack the Brits. WTF? 

Is it any wonder people are pissed off?


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## L.K.Eder (Sep 6, 2010)

lol, "they can't fly their national flags".

the indigenous people get nothing, and the mooslims get houses, with pools, and ferraris.

the boat is full!


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## ekrem (Jan 16, 2011)

The Humboldt University of Berlin has published a counter-study which disproves Mr. Sarrazin's 7th chapter of his book on Muslim Immigration.
The counter-study was limited to this 7th chapter of the book.
http://www.heymat.hu-berlin.de/sarrazin2010

Central findings are:

- Mr. Sarrazin claims, that Muslim parents hand lower-education down to their children. 
According to the University: In the 1st generation of Muslim immigration, only 3% had a higher education. 
The current generation of Muslims has a higher education rate of  22.4%. 
According to the University, the rise in the rate of higher education among Muslims through the respective generations represents 800%.

- HARTZ IV (is social benefit payments). 
Mr. Sarrazin said, that 40% of Muslims live of social payments from the State. 
According to the University it is 9.5%.

- Mr. Sarrazin claimed, that Muslims would refuse to learn German. 
The University says, that 70% of Muslim immigrants speak excellent German.

- Mr. Sarrazin said, that head-scarf is rising through generations. 
The University says, that only 23% of Muslim women wear head-scarf. 

- Mr. Sarrazin said, that Muslim children are not allowed to attend swimming-class in  school.
The University says, this is true for 7% of the Muslim children.

- Mr Sarrazin claimed, that Muslims marry only with Muslims. 
The University says, that (latest data 2008) 33.5% of Muslim men married a Christian woman. 
Especially in the 2nd generation, inter-cultural and inter-religious marriages rise. 

And many many more. 
The counter-study relies on governmental statistics and statistics from renowned institutions like the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung.


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## Ropey (Jan 16, 2011)

Muslim men married Christian women, but did they convert? Their babies are Muslim. Now the Muslim women?

Where are the Muslim women marrying non Muslim men. This is lying by statistics. You remove half of the Muslim population when you put forward only the Muslim men marrying Christian women and converting them or at the very least, creating Muslim babies.

The women are forbidden to marry outside of their belief, (very often to the point of honor killing death) and are shunned or worse (see prior parenthesis).

So, the university is playing fast and lose with the numbers and you stand to them. That's fine because Germany knows their issues are are dealing with them in the present. 

So is France, Belgium, Sweden, etc. etc. etc. 

Turks? Not so much...


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## ekrem (Jan 16, 2011)

According to the Professor in ordinary of the Federal Statistical Committee of Germany the publisher of the Book, Mr. Sarrazin, is a "statistical illiterate". 
Kontroverses Buch: Sarrazins Zahlendreher - Politik - Tagesspiegel

Mr. Sarrazin had to resign from his post as head of the Federal Bank due to his book and his claims.


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## Ropey (Jan 16, 2011)

Oh, I have no doubt that they fight each other since they disagree. Don't get me wrong. He deserved to be fired. And likely is fudging numbers.

But the pretense on the use of Muslim men marrying Christian women rather than amalgamating all Muslims marrying outside of their belief is proof of the Universities perfidy.


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## ekrem (Jan 16, 2011)

Ropey said:


> (...)



You have a wrong perception of Germans. 
For them it only counts, if you are productive or a burden for the economy. 
The rest are details of minor value whether Muslims marry only with Muslims. 
Those details of minor value will not shape German (group-spanning) perception about Muslims. 

Mr. Sarrazin basically claimed with suspicious data, that the Muslim immigrants are some prototype Illiterates and that these Muslim immigrants will pass this status over to their children with the children being exempt from class advancement. 
So it is important that these claims are being refuted.


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## Ropey (Jan 16, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > (...)
> ...



Then Germany has changed since I lived there. Yes, it is over twenty years ago but this classless society you speak of was nowhere to be seen and I doubt very much that this highly nationalistic society now only cares financially. 

Yes, in the current economic times there are more harbingers of that nationalism. It comes regardless of statistics. The flow will turn into an ebb and is shown regardless of the statistics which are likely fudged on both sides.

And I see the cultural exchange here in Canada. The one that you do not see in Germany. Do you also not see it in France? How about Belgium? I could go on and on. Do you not see the response in Canada? I can post much of it from here. Sharia tossed out in an entirety and immigration laws changed along with immigration tests reformed.

Do you see that here in Canada? And highly Nationalistic Germany has none of this response?



			
				ekrn said:
			
		

> The rest are details of minor value whether Muslims marry only with Muslims.
> Those details of minor value will not shape German (group-spanning) perception about Muslims.



Minor value to you. Not to Germany it would seem. 








> There&#8217;s an interesting article in the Daily Mail today on a poll conducted by French newspaper, Le Monde, which found that &#8220;68 per cent of French and 75 per cent of Germans believe Muslims are 'not well integrated into society'.&#8221;
> 
> The poll also found that &#8220;42 per cent of French and 40 per cent of Germans consider the presence of Islamic communities 'a threat' to their national identities.&#8221;



*Click*


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## ekrem (Jan 16, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Then Germany has changed since I lived there. Yes, it is over twenty years but this classless society you speak of was nowhere to be seen and I doubt very much that this highly nationalistic society now only cares financially.
> 
> Yes, in the current economic times there are more harbingers of that nationalism. It comes regardless of statistics. The flow will turn into an ebb and is shown regardless of the statistics which are likely fudged on both sides.
> 
> ...



Germany isn't nationalistic. They were raised in a way, where Patriotism and Nationalism is taboo for them.
But, the younger Germans become increasingly more confident. 
70% of the younger Germans believe, that there is no special relationship between Germany (Hitler thingy) and Israel, and that there are no obligations for Germans vis-a-vis the State of Israel.
Umfrage: Jeder zweite Deutsche hält Israel für aggressiv - Nahost - FOCUS Online
Once you talk with younger Germans, many of them will tell you, that they are fed-up with being held accountable for things they have not done. Germany is still besides the USA Israel's biggest source of technological pool, foreign aid and military-hardware gifts. 

The group of Iranian immigrants (Muslim) are highly regarded within German society, although there are not that many Iranian immigrants. The reason for this is, that Iranian immigrants came through the process of brain-drain. Academics.
But, the overwhelmingly majority of Muslims in Germany, where brought into Germany in the 60's and 70's to work in ore-mines, steel-plants and do jobs which the Germans due to class-advancement in the 50's Wirtschaftswunder didn't want to do anymore themselves. Germany systematically hired low-education immigrants from countries like Greece, Portugal, Italy and Turkey.
Those people who were hired were not Academics, but low-level educated people to work in ore-mines etc...



> The reason this is happening has nothing to do with the issues being put forward, or the statistics.
> 
> You know this. And it will change nothing.



I answered you already with the Iranian academic example. 
Also, there are resentments against Europeans from the nations of the last EU expansion-round, mainly against Polish, Romanians and Bulgarians. They are Christian, but still resentments exist against them. 

Now coming to the Muslims in Germany of which Turks are the biggest group. The group which were hired in the 60's and 70's to work in ore-mines. 
Nowadays, they have founded companies which provide jobs for 400.000 people and have an annual turnover of 40 Billion  and re-investing 8 Billion  each year into the economy. 
Türkische Unternehmer in Deutschland: Der Erfolg der Süpertürken: Mittelstand - impulse


Projections say, that by *2015*, those companies will employ 
- 720.000 people
- turn-over of 66 Billion  
- re-invest 15.3 Billion  into the economy.


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## ekrem (Jan 16, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Minor value to you. Not to Germany it would seem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't mind France or what happens there. 
In case of Germany there is the Sarazzin effect that shapes public perception, this also says the counter-study from the Humboldt University.

The counter-study says, that current islamophobe moods poll at 55%.
Before the Sarrazin debate it was 25%, constant through the years. 
Page 56+57 of the counter-study.


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## Ropey (Jan 16, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Minor value to you. Not to Germany it would seem.
> ...



Then the nationalistic side is moving where I said they would move. Regardless of you posting this in a US forum.

You change the momentum not one whit. And Ekrem? It sure seem to move to where I am saying it is moving.  Because of many factors of which this loudmouth is not a great one.

You just quantified it  





> The counter-study says, that current islamophobe moods poll at 55%.  Before the Sarrazin debate it was 25%, constant through the years.



Just because he is removed for being a loudmouthed governmental racist changes not the momentum of the country.

It increases it...

We can revisit the numbers in a year. The thread will still be here and I have documented it for retrieval.

I say there will be a greater preponderance to intolerance to Islam in the upcoming year. You seem to think Germany doesn't care at all other than in economic terms.

So, if the economy is more robust and the Nationalism is stronger, then you are in error. 

I shall just let time see the future.  Now that you are in the future with your economic view:



ekrem said:


> [I answered you already with the Iranian academic example.



Yes, it seems as though you are stuck to stuttering the same projections and looking through a crystal ball.

Good economists are not willing to look more than one or two years ahead without giving serious disclaimers.

All you did was give two examples of an economic projection tied to a few factors. There and here.


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## ekrem (Jan 16, 2011)

It's a temporary trend.
Before Sarrazin showed up in the media, Greece was the punch-bag in German media. 
This pictures was aired in German* State Television* in a late-night show, the message was: "Instead of bailing them out, we should sell them to Turkey".







The tenor was 'Greeks are unproductive inferiors who need to be bailed out by our money'. 






Sarrazin wrote in his book, that intelligence is 50-to-80 per-cent something of genetics. Together with false statistics he published in his book, the whole subject was omnipresent in the media throughout late summer and the message based on Sarrazin's book was: 'Our Muslim migrants have failed and are unproductive'.
This trend will ebb away and there are enough groups in Germany to counter this trend by delivering facts to the public, a public which still values productive performance.
The islamohobe mood is related to the Sarrazin book, as the mood turned negative based on his book --> Page 56+57 in study of Humboldt University study.
He published his book in times where he was Head of the German FED. That's why the book was in the media and was discussed this intense.

Would Bernanke publish a book, where he claims, that 40% of Irish immigrants live of welfare-payments then this would also have an impact on the perception of Irish immigrants in the USA.


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## Ropey (Jan 16, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Would Bernanke publish a book, where he claims, that 40% of Irish immigrants live of welfare-payments then this would also have an impact on the perception of Irish immigrants in the USA.



Doesn't matter. We're not talking about Bernanke. You are only interested in Germany, remember?


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Actually, Ropey, I am not really talking with you. 
I like to talk with myself and with the general public. 
The Bernanke example was to make Mr. Sarrazin explainable to Americans as Mr. Sarrazin held exactly the Bernanke position, when he published his book. 

The whole thing will ebb down again and there won't be events of Muslim immigrants in Germany getting pushed around in Le-Pen or Wilders style.


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## pAr (Jan 17, 2011)

Madeline said:


> You got me. I have never even visited Europe.
> 
> *I had/have a friend who lives in France.  He told me years ago, whole neighborhoods in Paris were becoming impassable for women in western garb.*  And back in the day, Detroit had a sizable Arab population that was no picnic to cope with either.
> 
> But Tech_Esq, how is this different from other culture clashes?  Surely by the time these immigrant families have had grandchildren, assimilation has largely occurred.



No disrespect, but I think your friend has been packing some weird stuff in his hookah. There isn't a single neighborhood in Paris like that.


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> I like to talk with myself.



The only one who will agree with you. 

Do you answer yourself as well?  

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0Nk-qpjQBE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0Nk-qpjQBE[/ame]

Europe has a grand eye on Turkey. Germany knows and understands their problems and I don't think they are looking myopically at simple economics as ek would think.

He's got another think coming.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x83odk_erdogan-droht-merkel-auf-turkisch_fun


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

You know nothing, just posting Israeli propaganda videos. 

Trojans were regarded nobles in medieval times and they were regarded the incarnation of people with fighting spirit, while the Greeks were regarded as perfidious who could only battle the Trojans with tricks (Trojan Horse). Hector was one of the Nine Worthies in medieval culture
Nine Worthies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In medieval culture the nobles of the German tribes regarded Franco of Troy as their founding-father. 
During the 2nd Crusade German regiments marched to the Holy Lands through land-route, this included also Anatolia. 
The Germans were decimated in Anatolia and as the Germans admired the fighting spirit of the local tribes, they regarded these Turkish tribes also as ancestors from Trojans as only other descandants of Trojans could defeat Trojans (German psyche of that time).
So it is recorded in the chronics of the Germans of that time.


Year *1493* printed *'Welschede World Chronicle'* which is an important document for German printing-art of those times.
It tells the story of Franco of Troy and Turco of Troy who were regarded founding-father of the Germans and Turks:
(Picture comes from Wikipedia)






After this crusade, the next hostile encounter was during the 2nd siege of Vienna, where some German Princedomes supported the Habsburgs in defending the city. 
All Ottoman soldiers who were captured by Germans were taken to the German City of Hannover and after they died, they were buried to Islamic practices by German Christians. These graves today still are under protection of Germany's historical heritage.

During the Prussian reign, Germans and Turks developed into "Comrades in War". 
It led to Ottomans joining Germany in WW1.

The only excemption where Germany and Turkey did not have diplomatical relations was between the time during the treaty of Mudros in 1918 (Post-WW1) and the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 (Founding of Turkey).

In 2nd world-war Turkey stayed neutral, but opened its door for Germans whose passports were invalidated by the Nazis:
Exil in der Türkei 1933?1945 ? Wikipedia 

There is much more history and depth in the relations, but coming to 'modern world', in 1961 Germany and Turkey signed a diplomatical-agreement for Turkish immigration into the German economy, the agreement was to import about 825.000 Turks for the German economy.



			
				Ropey said:
			
		

> Germany knows and understands their problems


If Germany regards Turks (65% of Muslims in Germany) as a problem, both countries will find a solution. 
And as I said earlier, Muslims in Germany won't get pushed around. We are not Tunisia or Algeria who let their people getting pushed around in France or Netherlands.

Angela Merkel is a bit bitchy, she does not really respect history and continuity in State relations between both countries, but others in Germany do. 
With the exception of Merkel, Germany was always ruled by leaders in modern times, who sympathized with Turkey. 
Germany doesn't consist only of Merkel, and in next election she will be gone and replaced by SPD-Green government.  
Those are exceptional friends of Turkey, and the current low-speed in EU accession talks will again speed up. 

I also said, that I don't care what happens in France with their Muslim population, as their Muslims come from N.African colonies. Or UK with Muslims from the Indian colonies. All those Muslims live with an inferiority complex within the nations of their colonial masters. 
In Germany it is different. 
Or like No. 147 of all-time Greatest Germans says:
Peter Scholl-Latour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The talk of the inferiority complex of the Muslims does not count for the Turks.
Schweizerzeit aktuell


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm laughing. No more. No propaganda. Just funny...

I know you can't see funny well, but there it is....


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

We have seen who posted propaganda. 
Your video or my post. Readers should decide for themselves.


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## Mr. Sauerkraut (Jan 17, 2011)

Back2topic

I´ve heard last week that Thilo Sarrazin has made 2,6 Million Dollars with his book. He´s just another firebug, touching dumb prejudices to make a quick dollar. Like every conspiration theory, it´s just a business.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Mr. Sauerkraut said:


> Back2topic
> 
> I´ve heard last week that Thilo Sarrazin has made 2,6 Million Dollars with his book. He´s just another firebug, touching dumb prejudices to make a quick dollar. Like every conspiration theory, it´s just a business.



With the money he made on Muslims, he goes for holiday to Turkey. 

http://bilder.bild.de/BILD/politik/...eId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=349.jpg


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> And as I said earlier, Muslims in Germany won't get pushed around. We are not Tunisia or Algeria who let their people getting pushed around in France or Netherlands.
> 
> I also said, that I don't care what happens in France with their Muslim population, as their Muslims come from N.African colonies. Or UK with Muslims from the Indian colonies*. All those Muslims live with an inferiority complex within the nations of their colonial masters.
> In Germany it is different. *





> Over half of Turks living in Germany feel like unwanted guests. The survey was released ahead of the German Islam Conference on Thursday, March 13, where the thorny topic of integration tops the agenda.





> Integration takes a few blows





> It's thought-provoking that thousands of people in Germany feel better represented by Erdogan than by German politicians, commented Armin Laschet, integration minister in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia.





> A series of events in recent weeks have stoked tension over integration in Germany. In early February, nine Turkish immigrants lost their lives when an apartment building in the south-western city of Ludwigshafen caught fire. The blaze was initially thought to be a case of arson, but authorities later said this suspicion was inaccurate.
> 
> Hesse's incumbent state premier, Roland Koch, also ruffled feathers earlier this year with an anti-immigrant campaign ahead of parliamentary elections. In particular, he advocated deporting non-German juvenile delinquents.


 

Click








> Erdogan irked some with his thoughts on integration





> Low Rates of German-Turkish Marriages Impedes Turkish Integration










> Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan called on his compatriots living in Germany not to give up their ethnicity. Chancellor Angela Merkel struck back by stressing the importance of integration.





			
				Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan said:
			
		

> "*Assimilation is tantamount to a crime against humanity*,"



*Click*

More Quotes by Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan



> The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...





> Educating future generations
> 
> But conservative leaders, such as Bavarian premier Guenther Beckstein, were alarmed by the Turkish prime minister's remarks. Beckstein called them "nationalistic" and "highly displeasing."



Erdogans words are heard around the world. Germany is under a demand from Turkish Muslims.

Let's see what happens with this demand shall we.  You quote a poll of 400 respondents and clearly polled for this purpose. 

But that's not the reality.

That's the PR reality.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

Turkey is to be monitored closely, and its ability to control aspects of other countries cultures needs to be watched for and impeded if or when such things occur as is happening with Germany at the moment. And the Turks in Germany now know this. 

A 400 respondent poll notwithstanding.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> (...)



Peoples like Merkel and Erdogan are temporary. 
Like you shout into the forest, so the echo shouts back. 
There is competition between Merkel and Erdogan who represents German-Turks, so far Erdogan is winning. 
He does this because Turks living abroad will get Seats in Turkish Parliament in the 2015 elections and can already participate in Turkish referendums. 

Friendship between Germany and Turkey has passed the test of time.
We aren't going to cut that relationship, just because Merkel isn't doing this much on the EU track pro Turkey.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Turkey is to be monitored closely (...)



Do as you wish, if you imply something like containing, then my answer is: 
First contain Iran who dances around your nose for 30 years.


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

Everything is temporary. Of course you are not going to cut the relationship. Just that the unhealthiness of Erdogan and a higher ideological thrust into Germany does not help and Germany is now watchful of something it had not considered as highly before.

I am just saying that Turkey needs to be watched closely and that any interactive connection between Islamic parties bear swift addressing.

Possibly it is just a simple rhetoric, but I say it bears fundamental examinations. 

To believe that this event is just a bit of economic fliff flaff is surprising and I say greatly minimized. 

Turkey needs to be watched closely and it is attaching connection between the Islamic proposals and Germany's inclusion by assimilation is seen to be under attack.

But you say that's not there at all and it is a simple economic evaluation?

Then I posted some funny "stuff" because your "stuff" is even funnier.

That's all.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Turkey is to be monitored closely (...)
> ...



We are talking in a thread about Turkey and Germany.

See if you can contain that aspect. 

Containing Turkey?  Not at all. 

Keeping in mind that an attempt to create an Islamic connection of control between Turkey and Germany's Muslim Turks is to be watched by nations worldwide. 

That's all.


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Everything is temporary. Of course you are not going to cut the relationship. Just that the unhealthiness of Erdogan and a higher ideological thrust into Germany does not help and Germany is now watchful of something it had not considered as highly before.
> 
> I am just saying that Turkey needs to be watched closely and that any interactive connection between Islamic parties bear swift addressing.
> 
> ...



No, it is not Turkey which is going to be watched closely. 
It is Turkey who will watch what is happening with Turks abroad and to a lesser degree general Muslims.


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

That as well. And as it should. 

But don't you think it will be two way?


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> We are talking in a thread about Turkey and Germany.
> 
> See if you can contain that aspect.
> 
> ...



What do you actually mean by saying religious control?
You should know, that Turkey already controls German-Turks in the religious sphere through DITIB, which is subsidiary of Turkey's Directorate for Religious Affairs. 
DITIB is Germany's biggest Muslim organization and runs the most mosques in Germany. The Imams in those mosques are public servants on the paycheck of Turkish State. 

Not because we want to control the German-Turks religiously, but they are Muslims and are eligible to receive proper religious service and assistance from an educated Imam for the problems they have in society. 

It is not Turkey's fault, that Germany didn't educate its own Imams. 
But Germany is finally correcting that error and has established faculties in Universities to raise its own Imams. 
It will actually be a financial relief for Turkey, if Germany overtakes this responsibility of training and paying Imams.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:
			
		

> ...





			
				Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan said:
			
		

> "*Assimilation is tantamount to a crime against humanity*,"





> T*The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...*



Erdogan is clear.


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## Mr. Sauerkraut (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Erdogan is clear.



what´s clear is that i live side by side with turkish people without having problems. I do so my entire life.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

Mr. Sauerkraut said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Erdogan is clear.
> ...



Until you don't.

Ekrem says, don't worry about that. You don't need to watch us. But we will be watching you. 



ekrem said:


> No, it is not Turkey which is going to be watched closely.
> It is Turkey who will watch what is happening with Turks abroad and to a lesser degree general Muslims.





And Erdogan is clear. He will be watched.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> > T*The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...*



Poem by Mehmet Akif Ersoy, writer of Turkish National Anthem. 
He was one of the leading figures of the Independence War. 
Mehmet Akif Ersoy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I never claimed, that Turks are good writers or poets. 
For such things we had the Arabs or Persians.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> I never claimed, that Turks are good writers or poets.
> For such things we had the Arabs or Persians.



And clearly spoken to an Ideological thrust. 

The world heard him, and many worry. I am one of those. And just because you say there's nothing to worry about.

Still...


----------



## Mr. Sauerkraut (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Mr. Sauerkraut said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> (...)But we will be watching you. (...)



Off course Turkey will watch what happens with its citizens abroad. 
As long as German-Turks don't change passports, they are citizens of Turkey and have rights as every other Turk has. This includes receiving religious service as 'The Church' in Turkey is managed by the State.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

Mr. Sauerkraut said:


> you should meet sarrazin. Maybe you´ll become friends.



One can never be certain. Personalities of oppositions have melded before. I'm not worried about Germany at all and I stated that they know what is happening better than you and I. 

The eyes need to be on Turkey and by extension the Turks in Germany. And at the moment, for some reason, they are. 

There's a reason why Turkey was tossed away by the EU.


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## Mr. Sauerkraut (Jan 17, 2011)

Currently, i´m doing the most worries about the usa...


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> (...)
> 
> There's a reason why Turkey was tossed away by the EU.



Accession talks are proceeding. 
Mr. France is free to stop the accession talks anytime he wishes rather then utilize his opposition to Turkish membership for local propaganda in his country.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

Mr. Sauerkraut said:


> Currently, i´m doing the most worries about the usa...



To each their own.

_"There's a reason why Turkey was tossed away by the EU."_

There is a movement towards extremism. Yes, it's a slow move at the moment, but if it gains momentum. 

The EU was not willing to take that chance. The world watches this country and all of it's attempts to create 'proxies'.  That's all I'm saying.


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Yes, everyone slides into extremism except for Israel which is actually ruled by 1930-style fascists (Liebermann). 
We know your story.


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> > T*The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Yes, everyone slides into extremism except for Israel which is actually ruled by 1930-style fascists (Liebermann).
> We know your story.



You can't stay on topic can you?  

Open up a thread with a comparison between Israeli extemism and Turkish extremism.  I'd love to get into that with you.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, everyone slides into extremism except for Israel which is actually ruled by 1930-style fascists (Liebermann).
> ...



I am on-topic the whole time. 
It was you who showed his true intention when you posted that video. 
You are just another Israeli having problems with Turkey. 
Simple as that. 

Unfortunately for you, those problems won't become less for you. 
We are only waiting for the Ban-Ki-Moon led report to be published. 
Then we'll see what's Israel's weight in the International System.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

That video was a funny response to a funny post of yours. I already told you that.

Talking about Israel in a thread about Turkish Muslims and Germany is on topic? 

You are insane if you really think that anyone here will see you as being on topic when twice now you have attacked my posts with Israel hack responses. 

Fail...


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

The only thing the US can do is further delay the publishing of the report. 
Deadline for UN probe into deadly flotilla raid postponed yet again - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

Once the report is published, WE (International System) will bring you to justice, real life isn't a fucking "Friendly Israelian Pirate of the Caribbean"-movie.


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> The only thing the US can do is further delay the publishing of the report.
> Deadline for UN probe into deadly flotilla raid postponed yet again - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review
> 
> Once the report is published, WE (International System) will bring you to justice, real life isn't a fucking "Friendly Israelian Pirate of the Caribbean"-movie.



You're still on Israel...

LOL

Thanks, for devolving ekrem.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> You're still on Israel...
> 
> LOL
> 
> Thanks, for devolving ekrem.



You're still on Turkey, how it needs to be watched, how it slips into extremism. 
The typical Israelian bullshit I encounter with all Israeli member on this forum. 
Or what is your motivation in this thread?


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> The typical Israelian bullshit I encounter with all Israeli member on this forum.



Ah, there we are....


ekrem said:


> You're still on Turkey, how it needs to be watched, how it slips into extremism.



Turkey --> Turkish Muslims In Germany experiencing a backlash from Turkeys Islamic Leader's words and intent and how this could be construed as hate considering Germany's views of Turkish assimilation.

That's what this thread is about. Other issues of other Islamic Leaders using other countries as proxies to foment their Islamic demands on other countries. (Turkey is integration and assimilation) (France is integration and crime) etc. etc.

But Israel? 

You wish to create a side proposal maybe? All this backlash from the Turkish Islamic Leaders quote somehow has Israeli roots?

Is that how you tie the two together?

Please show me how you tie this threads topic to Israel or admit you are not on topic.

Or, pretend (in some fantasy driven mode) that you are on topic.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > The typical Israelian bullshit I encounter with all Israeli member on this forum.
> ...



Exactly, there we are. 
What is it with the likes of you, Marc39, Ghook93 and in the past, when they were more active CMike+DavidS coming in all those threads about Turkey and preaching the same old song over and over again?

We both know, what is going on.


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Or what is your motivation in this thread?



I believe in confronting Islamic extremism when it attaches itself to other countries. 

Erdogan does this very strongly. So, he is at the moment and to my personal view, the most dangerous spokesperson of Islamic fundamentalism. 



			
				Erdogan said:
			
		

> "*Assimilation is tantamount to a crime against humanity*,"





			
				Erdogan said:
			
		

> "*The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...*,"



This is what brought me in and keeps me in. You can blame these thoughts on me being a Jew or Israeli. 

Blame whatever you want. The reasons above are the same.


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## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Erdogan said:
> 
> 
> 
> > "*Assimilation is tantamount to a crime against humanity*,"



*2008.* Cologne Germany addressing German-Turks.



Ropey said:


> Erdogan said:
> 
> 
> 
> > "*The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...*,"



*1998. * Turkey. 
Originally written as Poem in 1910's by composer of Turkish National Anthem who rallied for support for the Independence War. 
In those times it didn't exist any internet or TV. People were either in mosques or public places.
Anatolia was divided by occupying powers after 1918 WW1-defeat. Our German ally surrendered leading to rise of Hitler because of Versailles. 
Turks fought on in Independence War. 


You are putting the same quotes together without its time-context as if the 1998 quote was directed forwards German-Turks in 2008.
Why are you doing this?
We know why you are doing this, don't we?


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Erdogan said:
> ...




They both connect themselves as his views.

You attach a time centric to his views regarding Islam? He thinks different now?

Where are newer quotes showing his movement to a more moderate approach? His newest quote seems just as inflammatory to me. You?

You seek to minimize maybe? Remove attachments? They are there regardless of your attempts.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> They both connect themselves as his views.
> 
> You attach a time centric to his views regarding Islam? He thinks different now?
> 
> Where are newer quotes showing his movement to a more moderate approach?



If you would really be interested in Turkey, you would take EU's screening report on Turkey as your source. Due to the accession process, EVERYTHING is being screened in Turkey from society over economy to human rights. There is nothing hidden. Every year Turkey is benchmarked on the accession criteria.

You simply make your Israeli propaganda. 
Fine, I didn't expect anything else from you anyway as I already made that experience with your other country-men like GHook, Marc etc. 
You have a specific agenda.

All come directly from EU Commission
*2005*
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/arc...kage/sec_1426_final_progress_report_tr_en.pdf

*2006*
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2006/nov/tr_sec_1390_en.pdf

*2007*
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2007/nov/turkey_progress_reports_en.pdf


*2008*
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf...eports_nov_2008/turkey_progress_report_en.pdf

*2009*
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2009/tr_rapport_2009_en.pdf

*2010*
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2010/package/tr_rapport_2010_en.pdf


You can also read US Foreign Department about extremism in Turkey. 
Now tell me, why I should like you when you and your other country-men do this propaganda?


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> You can also read US Foreign Department about extremism in Turkey.
> Now tell me, why I should like you when you and your other country-men do this propaganda?



You have every right not to like me ekrem.

Read Erdogan's lips. From there come his words. From his words may come...

His actions???? 

That's why. I see him as a danger and his extremist ideology must be fought so that it doesn't increase.

You seem to want to minimize it and say he doesn't mean what he says.

That's what they said about others...

Remember this ekrem. What you post here and what I post here is irrelevent in the great scheme of things. You know that as you've mentioned the ebb and flow.

I just see that a strong initial response leads to the ebb and a weak response 'can' lead to a flow.

Like has nothing to do with this for me.


----------



## ekrem (Jan 17, 2011)

Ropey said:


> (...)
> You have every right not to like me ekrem.
> (...)



I don't like you, and your country-men do fun out of my dead country-men like GHook does. 

Sooner or later you will see what that governmental official giving the order to shoot has done to your country. 
More I don't have to say to you.


----------



## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Sooner or later you will see what that governmental official giving the order to shoot has done to your country.


This is not about that ekrem. You can't even stay on topic.



ekrem said:


> More I don't have to say to you.



So, if you want to turn this into an Anti-Israel rant, let's add to this hijack of 'yours'.

No worry with Turkish ideology when it becomes more extremist and fanatic with intent?

Do you have more to say to the Armenians?

And remember. I am Canadian. We have many of those Turkey was intending on extinguising with their moderate ways.

Keep an eye on Turkey INDEED.


----------



## manifold (Jan 17, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Holy shit.
> 
> Bundesbank official's comments, condemned as racist, open debate on immigration in Germany | cleveland.com



linkie no workie


----------



## Mr. Sauerkraut (Jan 17, 2011)

well. we didn´t have any muslimic based terroristic attac in germany yet. if it happens ever, things could turn over very quick. we´re slow and very deliberate here. but when the mass has identified anything as a danger, it could even come here to a turnover. I can´t denie that at all.


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## Ropey (Jan 17, 2011)

The Germans are a strong people who will not be taken easily. That's why I said I have no worry for Germany either. Turkey is in a movement to another arena with this Islamic non-secular leader who is a firebrand, but who has yet to really make any mistakes and has brought Turkey to the forefront in some very brilliant political manoeuvrings.

He is a relatively young, powerful and bright man who has strong rhetoric and from there I extrapolate a desire to extend Islam as his quotes show. 

So, to my view, simply a country to watch well and not let their leaders foreign power increase. 

No religious states within states of secular societies! Doubly so for extremist spouting rhetoric that this Turkish Leader is spewing out at the world.


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## LibocalypseNow (Jan 19, 2011)

"Hate Speech" Laws are Bullshit. Someone always uses these laws to advance their own political agendas. Free & open speech is vital to a real Democracy. "Hate Speech" Laws are not compatible with real Democracy.


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