# Parenting Transgender Youth



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Some say that to allow anyone under 18 to get hormone treatment is child abuse.  I disagree.  The younger a person starts to transition the more successful the transition physically and psychologically.

Discuss.

I am the parent of a transgender youth, due to turn 17 in July.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

The power of trans* presence made itself known to me in a profound way on this year’s International Transgender Day of Visibility, which took place on March 31st.  This annual day of recognition is dedicated to celebrating transgender people worldwide and to raising awareness of discrimination against the trans* community.  I belong to a closed Facebook group that is limited to parents and caregivers of transgender and gender creative children, one that numbers well over 3,000 members now. On the 31st, after logged into Facebook, I saw that my feed was dominated by posts from this group, which was a little unusual.  But the reason soon became clear, and I was quickly overwhelmed with amazement and  with gratitude as I watched one incredible photo after another streaming across my computer screen.  The photo stream continued throughout the day and into the night.

I was immediately struck by the uniqueness of each photo.  Kids, teens, young adults and adults — at play, at work, with their families, with their husbands, wives, partners. Yet it was the volume that grabbed my heart, moving me to tears.  While we’ve seen a huge increase in trans* visibility over the past several years, the stories and images in the media tend to be isolated from one another, as are trans people all too often.  Isolation is one cause of depression among the trans* community, fueled by social stigma and rejection, whether it be from family, friends, school, and employment.  Witnessing this seemingly endless flow of trans* faces reinforced the power of visibility and the belief that community is integral to wellbeing — for trans* people, and perhaps more importantly, for everyone else.

I wish we could all bear witness to this unforgettable collection, but for reasons of privacy and safety, the photos cannot be shared.   However, a similar portfolio of members of the trans* community can be viewed here, published in 2014 in Huffington Post’s what #WhatTransLooksLike campaign.   Additional photo essays on trans* and agender identities can be found hereand here.
The Power of Trans* Presence


----------



## Tilly (May 13, 2016)

People, discuss this at your peril (unless you agree 100% with Dhara, in which case, have at it).
You have been warned.
That is all.


----------



## aaronleland (May 13, 2016)

I'm all for transgender teens taking hormone therapy as long as they know what they are getting into, but wonder if there should be an age limit. A 15-17 year old probably knows what they want by that point, but is a 12/13 year old prepared to make such a drastic, life-long decision?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Being transgender is not a “lifestyle choice;” rather, it is just one more beautiful, normal variation of being human. Having the support of family is the number one way to prevent depression and suicide among transgender youth. Every child deserves to be loved and supported unconditionally.

I love my son, and I support his decision to take testosterone.  When he's old enough for top surgery I will be there for him.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

aaronleland said:


> I'm all for transgender teens taking hormone therapy as long as they know what they are getting into, but wonder if there should be an age limit. A 15-17 year old probably knows what they want by that point, but is a 12/13 year old prepared to make such a drastic, life-long decision?


It's controversial aaron, that's for sure.  But is NOT child abuse to allow your kid at age 16 to take hormones or to have surgery at age 18.


----------



## TNHarley (May 13, 2016)

Why do you think kids have the mind to make decisions like that at such a young age?
I very much support them being adults when that stuff was to start up.
Frikkin Jenner is questioning going back to a man and he is like 60.
They are ill. If my child started questioning biology like that, I would focus more on the illness than give into it. 
 Give them love, _actually_ listen and speak the truth to them... People have to accept themselves.


----------



## SassyIrishLass (May 13, 2016)

When you have 3-6 year old children claiming they are transgender you really need to take a look at the parenting.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

I talked to my son about the heat I'm taking here for allowing him to take hormones.  I told him that some people think parents who let kids take hormones are child abusers.  My son said the opposite is true.  Parents who refuse to support their kids are abusive.


----------



## Stephanie (May 13, 2016)

as if there are so many of them. good grief.

Homosexuals are less than 5% of our population now how many of these so called: transgenders/transvestite's ?


----------



## Stephanie (May 13, 2016)

SassyIrishLass said:


> When you have 3-6 year old children claiming they are transgender you really need to take a look at the parenting.


no kidding.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

SassyIrishLass said:


> When you have 3-6 year old children claiming they are transgender you really need to take a look at the parenting.


No, not at the parenting, but at what is going on with the kid.  Kids play at gender roles at young ages.  I don't think letting any child that young take medication makes any sense.


----------



## TNHarley (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > I'm all for transgender teens taking hormone therapy as long as they know what they are getting into, but wonder if there should be an age limit. A 15-17 year old probably knows what they want by that point, but is a 12/13 year old prepared to make such a drastic, life-long decision?
> ...


 their freaking body isn't even fully developed yet. Sounds like abuse to me. See, kids are not granted many freedoms because they don't know any better. That's why they have parents. To tell them to eat their corn and not a twinkie...


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> Why do you think kids have the mind to make decisions like that at such a young age?
> I very much support them being adults when that stuff was to start up.
> Frikkin Jenner is questioning going back to a man and he is like 60.
> They are ill. If my child started questioning biology like that, I would focus more on the illness than give into it.
> Give them love, _actually_ listen and speak the truth to them... People have to accept themselves.


Your bias is that NO KID should question their biology or transition.

Yes, people need to accept themselves.  Some people ARE transgender and you need to accept that.


----------



## aaronleland (May 13, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > aaronleland said:
> ...



I understand your balls didn't drop until you were 30, but that's not the case with most people.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > aaronleland said:
> ...


I can only speak for myself and my family.  We don't do this casually or without great care and consult with doctors,. psychiatrists and psychotherapists.


----------



## SassyIrishLass (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > When you have 3-6 year old children claiming they are transgender you really need to take a look at the parenting.
> ...



I have raised six children through those years...children that age are not thinking about such complex sexual issues. It's bunk and BS...and child abuse


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

You confuse gender with sexuality, sassy.  They are two separate issues.


----------



## TNHarley (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think kids have the mind to make decisions like that at such a young age?
> ...


 And you think a kid that isn't even done developing has the mentality to deny basic biology like that?
I accept it. I have family that suffers from it.
I don't have a problem with trannies. I have a problem with the way society handles them and the special rights they want to give them. Talk about discrimination!


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

My son is adopted.  About the last thing in the world I expected was to be dealing with the transgender issue.  Oddly enough, all the social workers and counselors thought it was great.  Lesbian parents with a transgender youth.

If we can't accept and support him, who will?


----------



## SassyIrishLass (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> You confuse gender with sexuality, sassy.  They are two separate issues.



Children that age are clueless about either, they are innocent children and fruit loop parents somehow get the idea little Johnny is really little Jillian. It's child abuse


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

My son is a social activist.  He goes to youth conferences, he speaks to senators.  He starts an LGBT+ group at our local, rural high school.  He is an amazing person.  I feel so blessed to know him and love him


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > You confuse gender with sexuality, sassy.  They are two separate issues.
> ...


I know you raised 6 children and I respect that.  I don't respect you writing off all supportive parents as "fruit loops".

This is a measured, slow process that has been going on for nearly three years.  It is not a petty or light decision.

I will be courageous for my son, no matter what the cost.  I have big shoulders and I can take it.

People may judge me harshly, hate my guts, think I'm a child abuse, but when all is said and done.  I am raising children into adults who love themselves and are empowered to be good citizens.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

That's all I have to say.  I've lost 2 friends today because they expect to choose them over my son.  I won't.


----------



## SassyIrishLass (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



It makes little difference to me what you respect and what you don't. I also don't care your child is some social warrior or whatever...my comments were about the very young children supposedly being transgender, they are not, someone has put this garbage in their heads and it's abuse. Nothing more and nothing less


----------



## Stephanie (May 13, 2016)

great, kids being trained too preach to the rest of us/social activist. just who I want running my life


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...


Very young children, IMO, need more time.

I was attempting to have a civil conversation with you about this issue.  If you don't care what I think then we have nothing more to say to each other.


----------



## SassyIrishLass (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



I am being civil, your problem is I refuse to condone or agree with you, time and time again you get defensive and whine when it happens. I don't care if your child is transgender, you say he is 17 and waiting until 18 to whatever they do, what I do care about is innocent young children being subjected to this nonsense, a child that age is not capable of dealing with such complex issues and they shouldn't be introduced to them...and yes that is EXACTLY what is taking place


----------



## Fenton Lum (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> I talked to my son about the heat I'm taking here for allowing him to take hormones.  I told him that some people think parents who let kids take hormones are child abusers.  My son said the opposite is true.  Parents who refuse to support their kids are abusive.


 
If you're looking to discuss this here, I would question that more than anything.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

I certainly did not introduce my son to being transgender.  He came up with that on his own.


----------



## Fenton Lum (May 13, 2016)

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...


 

"
_I am being civil, your problem is I refuse to condone or agree with you, time and time again you get defensive and whine when it happens_.

Looking forward to the day you begin to walk that talk.  Asking for your thoughts was the only mistake here.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > I talked to my son about the heat I'm taking here for allowing him to take hormones.  I told him that some people think parents who let kids take hormones are child abusers.  My son said the opposite is true.  Parents who refuse to support their kids are abusive.
> ...


I wouldn't.  It's in the news, it's in my life,  I can either be silent or speak up.


----------



## Compost (May 13, 2016)

Studies have been done on transgendered youth. It turns out that the vast majority of these kids stop feeling confused about their sexual identity without treatment.  This seems a good argument for letting the kid grow into adulthood before pumping in hormones.
Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution

I saw an item the other day about transgender suicide rates.  They are far higher than the average population suicide rates.  Most troubling, is that the suicide rate remains high for transgendered people *after* surgery.  If I can find that link I'll post it.


----------



## Fenton Lum (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


 

Speak up, but don't ask twits here for their opinion.  Just saying that would be my own approach, you'll find your own.  Both you and your child should be true to yourselves and everyone else can go fuck off.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Parenting is a tough enough job, even when your kids aren't transgender.  All parents want their kids to grow up whole, healthy and happy adults and good citizens.

My wife has more courage than I do.  I'm the more conservative parent in the family.  In fact, my kid started on hormones and then my wife told me about it.

25 years ago, the first transgender person I met, I recoiled from.  It was just too strange for me.  I had to really work hard to overcome my prejudice, and that's even with me being a lesbian and daugther of a gay man.

This is a journey.   Not one I'd necessarily recommend to anyone but when you don't have a choice, you just to agonize over decisions and pray for the best.


----------



## Fenton Lum (May 13, 2016)

Compost said:


> Studies have been done on transgendered youth. It turns out that the vast majority of these kids stop feeling confused about their sexual identity without treatment.  This seems a good argument for letting the kid grow into adulthood before pumping in hormones.
> Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution
> 
> I saw an item the other day about transgender suicide rates.  They are far higher than the average population suicide rates.  Most troubling, is that the suicide rate remains high for transgendered people *after* surgery.  If I can find that link I'll post it.


 
If we're going to base this upon suicide I'd like to get a word in for US vets who are commiting suicide at a rate of 22 per day.  No one seems to notice.  Should we treat people so they won't join the military?


----------



## Compost (May 13, 2016)

This isn't the article I was thinking of but the results are similar to the one I mentioned.  Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden.  - PubMed - NCBI


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...


I've told a few people here to fuck off today.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Compost said:


> This isn't the article I was thinking of but the results are similar to the one I mentioned.  Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden.  - PubMed - NCBI


I appreciate the article.


----------



## Compost (May 13, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Compost said:
> 
> 
> > Studies have been done on transgendered youth. It turns out that the vast majority of these kids stop feeling confused about their sexual identity without treatment.  This seems a good argument for letting the kid grow into adulthood before pumping in hormones.
> ...


It is true that military people commit suicide at higher rates than the average.  The topic right now though, is transgendered people.


----------



## The Great Goose (May 13, 2016)

aaronleland said:


> I'm all for transgender teens taking hormone therapy as long as they know what they are getting into, but wonder if there should be an age limit. A 15-17 year old probably knows what they want by that point, but is a 12/13 year old prepared to make such a drastic, life-long decision?


It is IMPERETIVE they start hrt before puberty. Screw responsibilty. Thats just another word for gutless.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

My son turns 18 in a year.  It will be his decision completely whether to have surgery or not.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

The Great Goose said:


> aaronleland said:
> 
> 
> > I'm all for transgender teens taking hormone therapy as long as they know what they are getting into, but wonder if there should be an age limit. A 15-17 year old probably knows what they want by that point, but is a 12/13 year old prepared to make such a drastic, life-long decision?
> ...


It does take courage to administer puberty blocking hormones.  My son came to me AFTER puberty.  It is much easy to transition if a child has taken those puberty blocking hormones, but because the children are so young, how can anyone be sure it's the right thing?


----------



## The Great Goose (May 13, 2016)

Stephanie said:


> as if there are so many of them. good grief.
> 
> Homosexuals are less than 5% of our population now how many of these so called: transgenders/transvestite's ?


0% but now they are being liberated and will be cherished girls and women.


----------



## Fenton Lum (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


 

I'm sure you have, I'm talking about living it.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...


What do you mean?  I am living it.  This is my life.  This is what my life is about.  Parenting.


----------



## Fenton Lum (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


 
Wish you all the best, take care.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

This is a wonderful article:

My Child Is Transgender: This Is How I Know


----------



## Muhammed (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Some say that to allow anyone under 18 to get hormone treatment is child abuse.  I disagree.  The younger a person starts to transition the more successful the transition physically and psychologically.
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> I am the parent of a transgender youth, due to turn 17 in July.


It is a particularly egregious form of child abuse that warrants a life in prison sentence. If you fuck up your child with hormone "treatments" it may cause irreversible damage.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Forcing a child to be the gender you insist they must be, beating the crap out of them or killing them for it, forcing them out on the street, THAT is child abuse.  Being a supportive parent to a trans child is not.


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



What is the advantage of starting hormone therapy at 17, versus 18 or 21? I would be supportive of my child regardless, but what is the rush?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Primary Care Protocol for Transgender Patient Care: Youth: Special Considerations


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

I would have preferred my son wait until he was 18 to start hormone treatment.  My wife has taken the lead on this one, after consulting three pediatric endocrinlogists, two psychiatrists, his mental health therapist and many, many hours of discussion.  Me, the more conservative parent, finally came around.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

A 5-year-old doesn’t know enough about gender to be transgender.

Every so often, a media outlet will publish a profile of a child who believes he or she is transgender, and the story will prompt disbelief. “Kids that age can only wear what you put on them, sport the haircut you assign them, play with the toys you give them, and mostly believe what you tell them they should believe,” conservative blogger Matt Walsh wrote about a case in San Diego. “Ryland, the 5 year old girl who ‘transitioned’ into a boy, isn’t transgender, she’s confused,” Joshua Riddle, founder of the Young Conservatives site, declared about the same story.

On the contrary, children as young as 2 can present with gender incongruence. According to the American Psychiatric Association, cross-gender behaviors often start between 2 and 4 years old. One study by the TransYouth Project found that kids as young as 5 respond to psychological gender-association tests, which evaluate how people understand their gender roles. Researchers have also found no relationship between gender incongruence and parenting styles. Transgender children appear in the homes of parents who are Republicans or Democrats, in the military or in civilian life, and regardless of racial, ethnic or religious backgrounds.
Five myths on being transgender


----------



## saveliberty (May 13, 2016)

This pretty much covers it for me:


----------



## ZackB (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> My son is a social activist.  He goes to youth conferences, he speaks to senators.  He starts an LGBT+ group at our local, rural high school.  He is an amazing person.  I feel so blessed to know him and love him


No normal kid is a lgbt activist. He had this crap fed to him. His youth has been stolen from him.


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

ZackB said:


> No normal kid is a lgbt activist. He had this crap fed to him. His youth has been stolen from him.


That's untrue.  I had friends who were openly gay in high school, and did not have gay or lesbian parents.  I work with 2 kids now who are openly gay.  I can't think of anyone in those kids' lives who brainwashed them into being gay or advocating for gays/lesbians.  In fact, both came from neighborhoods where you basically get the shit beaten out of you for being gay, so it takes  a considerable amount of courage to come out of the closet.

Dhara is a lot of things, but I don't believe that she did this to her kid.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

I think it's just as bad as encouraging your child to have any other cosmetic surgery.  It can also be dangerous.  You have to learn to accept yourself for what you are.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’

(CNSNews.com) --  Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.

Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, made his remarks in a recentcommentary in the _Wall Street Journal_, where he explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a “disorder of ‘assumption’” – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.

He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% “spontaneously lost those feelings.”

While the Obama administration, Hollywood, and major media such as _Time_magazine promote transgenderism as normal, said Dr. McHugh, these “policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention.”

“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”

The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

Dr. Paul McHugh is an anti-transgender bigot.  He is not a credible source on the subject.

Meet The Doctor Social Conservatives Depend On To Justify Anti-Transgender Hate


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

pillars said:


> Dr. Paul McHugh is an anti-transgender bigot.  He is not a credible source on the subject.
> 
> Meet The Doctor Social Conservatives Depend On To Justify Anti-Transgender Hate



I'll take his word over the PC crowd who is afraid to "hurt feelings" and justifies mutilating healthy bodies, when it is biologically impossible for these people to ever become what they want to be.  Obviously, it is a body dysmorphic syndrome and needs psychiatric treatment and not cosmetic surgery and dangerous hormones for treatment.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

From the link above . . . 

The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time. Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> pillars said:
> 
> 
> > Dr. Paul McHugh is an anti-transgender bigot.  He is not a credible source on the subject.
> ...



How much do you know about McHugh, whose word you are taking?



> McHugh is also known for filing an amicus curiae brief in _Hollingsworth v. Perry_, asserting that homosexuality is a choice, as well as for his participation of the campaign against Kansas abortion provider Dr George Tiller– who was murdered in 2009 by a anti-abortion activist.



Do you also agree with McHugh that homosexuality is a choice, and that abortion should be outlawed?

I'm wondering exactly why you find him so credible on transgender issues, in light of the above.

Just curious.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Gender Ideology Harms Children

The American College of Pediatricians urges educators and legislators to reject all policies that condition children to accept as normal a life of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex. Facts – not ideology – determine reality.

1. *Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: “XY” and “XX” are genetic markers of health – not genetic markers of a disorder. *The norm for human design is to be conceived either male or female. Human sexuality is binary by design with the obvious purpose being the reproduction and flourishing of our species. This principle is self-evident. The exceedingly rare disorders of sex development (DSDs), including but not limited to testicular feminization and congenital adrenal hyperplasia, are all medically identifiable deviations from the sexual binary norm, and are rightly recognized as disorders of human design. Individuals with DSDs do not constitute a third sex.1

2. *No one is born with a gender. Everyone is born with a biological sex. Gender (an awareness and sense of oneself as male or female) is a sociological and psychological concept; not an objective biological one. *No one is born with an awareness of themselves as male or female; this awareness develops over time and, like all developmental processes, may be derailed by a child’s subjective perceptions, relationships, and adverse experiences from infancy forward. People who identify as “feeling like the opposite sex” or “somewhere in between” do not comprise a third sex. They remain biological men or biological women.2,3,4

3. *A person’s belief that he or she is something they are not is, at best, a sign of confused thinking.* When an otherwise healthy biological boy believes he is a girl, or an otherwise healthy biological girl believes she is a boy, an objective psychological problem exists that lies in the mind not the body, and it should be treated as such. These children suffer from gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria (GD), formerly listed as Gender Identity Disorder (GID), is a recognized mental disorder in the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association (DSM-V).5 The psychodynamic and social learning theories of GD/GID have never been disproved.2,4,5

4. *Puberty is not a disease and puberty-blocking hormones can be dangerous. *Reversible or not, puberty- blocking hormones induce a state of disease – the absence of puberty – and inhibit growth and fertility in a previously biologically healthy child.6


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Psychiatry expert: ‘scientifically there is no such thing as transgender’

OTTAWA, January 11, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A prominent Toronto psychiatrist has severely criticized the assumptions underlying what has been dubbed by critics as the Canadian federal government's "bathroom bill," that is, Bill C-279, a private member’s bill that would afford special protection to so-called "transgender" men and women.

Dr. Joseph Berger has issued a statement saying that from a medical and scientific perspective there is no such thing as a "transgendered" person, and that terms such as “gender expression” and “gender identity" used in the bill are at the very least ambiguous, and are more an emotional appeal than a statement of scientific fact.

Berger, who is a consulting psychiatrist in Toronto and whose list of credentials establishes him as an expert in the field of mental illness, stated that people who identify themselves as "transgendered" are mentally ill or simply unhappy, and pointed out that hormone therapy and surgery are not appropriate treatments for psychosis or unhappiness.






"From a scientific perspective, let me clarify what ‘transgendered’ actually means," Dr. Berger said, adding, "I am speaking now about the scientific perspective – and not any political lobbying position that may be proposed by any group, medical or non-medical."

"‘Transgendered’ are people who claim that they really are or wish to be people of the sex opposite to which they were born, or to which their chromosomal configuration attests," Dr. Berger stated.

"Some times, some of these people have claimed that they are ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’ or alternatively ‘a man trapped in a woman’s body’."

"The medical treatment of delusions, psychosis or emotional happiness is not surgery," Dr. Berger stated.

"On the other hand," Dr. Berger continued, "if these people are asked to clarify exactly what they believe, that is to say do they truly believe whichever of those above propositions applies to them and they say ‘no’, then they know that such a proposition is not true, but that they ‘feel’ it, then what we are talking about scientifically, is just unhappiness, and that unhappiness is being accompanied by a wish – that leads some people into taking hormones that predominate in the other sex, and even having cosmetic surgery designed to make them ‘appear’ as if they are a person of the opposite sex."

He explained that cosmetic surgery will not change the chromosomes of a human being in that it will not make a man become a woman, capable of menstruating, ovulating, and having children, nor will it make a woman into a man, capable of generating sperm that can unite with an egg or ovum from a woman and fertilize that egg to produce a human child.

Moreover, Dr. Berger stated that the arguments put forward by those advocating for special rights for gender confused people have no scientific value and are subjective and emotional appeals with no objective scientific basis.

"I have read the brief put forward by those advocating special rights, and I find nothing of scientific value in it," Dr. Berger said in his statement. "Words and phrases, such as 'the inner space,' are used that have no objective scientific basis."

"These are the scientific facts," Dr. Berger said. "There seems to me to be no medical or scientific reason to grant any special rights or considerations to people who are unhappy with the sex they were born into, or to people who wish to dress in the clothes of the opposite sex."

"The so-called ‘confusion’ about their sexuality that a teenager or adult has is purely psychological. As a psychiatrist, I see no reason for people who identify themselves in these ways to have any rights or privileges different from everyone else in Canada," he concluded.


----------



## PredFan (May 13, 2016)

Yeah if you have a transgender son or daughter, you have already failed as a parent.


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Gender Ideology Harms Children
> 
> The American College of Pediatricians urges educators and legislators to reject all policies that condition children to accept as normal a life of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex. Facts – not ideology – determine reality.
> 
> ...



You aren't as smart as you think you are.  You're linking to a hate group masquerading as a legit organization.



> The American College of Pediatricians (ACP), which utilizes the totally convincing slogan “Best for Children,” has issued a new position statement claiming that respecting transgender children’s identities causes them harm and conservative groups are already latching onto it.
> 
> *If the claim sounds peculiar, it’s because it’s a claim completely refuted by all available scientific evidence. It’s also because the ACP is not a legitimate medical organization; its name is designed to be mistaken for the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is a national organization with some 60,000 members. The ACP, by contrast, is estimated to have no more than 200 members, and it has been **designated a hate group** by the Southern Poverty Law Center for its anti-LGBT positions*



Hate Group Masquerading As Pediatricians Attacks Transgender Youth

Here's what the American Academy of Pediatrics, a legit medical organization with over 6,000 members, says about gender non-conforming and transgender children:

Gender Non-Conforming & Transgender Children


> Research suggest that children who are persistent, consistent, and insistent about their gender identity are the ones who are most likely to become transgender adults. It is important support and follow the lead of the child. This may mean you will not have an answer for quite a long time, which can be very difficult for parents. Here are some examples:
> 
> 
> *If your teenager has identified as a different gender since early childhood, it is unlikely he or she will change his or her mind. *A 12-year-old male who has consistently asserted, _"I am a girl," _since the age of three, will most likely remain transgender throughout life.
> ...


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

WORLD | Pediatricians’ group: Transgender kids need help, not new hormones | Julie Borg | March 25, 2016

The American College of Pediatricians (ACP) has issued a statement urging educators and legislators to reject all policies that encourage chemical or surgical gender reassignment for children. The ACP is a socially conservative, national medical association of pediatricians and health care providers not affiliated with the larger American Academy of Pediatrics.

The ACP has been inundated with emails from professionals supporting its stance, said the group’s president, Michelle Cretella. But liberal, LGBT-supporting publications such as _Think Progress_, have accused the ACP of being a hate group attacking transgender youth.

“We are not encouraging hate,” Cretella insists. The ACP statement reflects its members’ concern that parents and schools are inflicting harm on gender-confused children by encouraging them to seek medical interventions that often place them on life-long, risky hormone treatment and starts them on a path that eventually leads to mutilating their otherwise healthy bodies to re-assign gender.

Instead, Cretella believes, gender-confused children should be treated for the underlying problem of gender dysphoria, a diagnosable condition listed in the most recent edition of the _Diagnostic and Statistical Manual_ of the American Psychiatric Association. 

*“These children are coming to health care providers for help and we should be looking at the underlying foundational matter, not reinforcing their disconnect from reality. To ignore that is, in a sense, criminal,” Cretella said.*

Paul McHugh, a psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins University, believes it is never appropriate to put young people through sex-change surgery. 

“We can help them if we begin to explore with them and their families what they’re fearing about development, what they’re fearing about being a young boy, a young adolescent appropriate to themselves,” he told Fox News_._

According the the ACP statement, gender re-assignment for children involves the use of puberty-blocking hormones that inhibit growth and fertility, essentially inducing disease.

But puberty is not a disease, Cretella explained. It is a critical time period of physical development, bone growth, and brain maturation. If doctors arrest puberty hormones for any amount of time, it robs the child’s brain of normal hormonal exposure during a critical period. Scientists have no idea what the long-term implications of that could be, she said. And children who eventually go through gender reassignment will require life-long use of cross-sex hormones, either testosterone or estrogen.

It’s too early for longitudinal studies to speak to the long-term safety of these medications, but the risks, such as high blood pressure, blood clots, stroke, and cancer, are well-documented in their use treating other conditions. 

“We have no idea what the risks are in giving these hormones to children for the rest of their lives. We are using these children as an experiment,” Cretella said.

According to a well-known 2011 Swedish study, not only are adults who use cross-sex hormones and undergo sex reassignment surgery at significantly greater risk for cardiovascular disease, and possibly cancer, but the rates of suicide are 20 times greater for these individuals than their heterosexual peers. LGBT groups attribute the increased suicide risk to society’s negative attitude toward them, but Cretella doesn’t believe that’s a factor because the study was conducted in Sweden, one of the most LGBT-affirming countries in the world.

And often, no treatment is necessary. According to the ACP, gender confusion in childhood usually rectifies itself. As many as 98 percent of gender-confused boys, and 88 percent of gender-confused girls, will accept their biological sex after naturally passing through puberty, the pediatricians wrote.

“Conditioning children into believing a lifetime of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex is normal and healthful is child abuse,” the statement said.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

pillars said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Gender Ideology Harms Children
> ...



Sorry, but the assessments that these children need hormones and surgery to treat an obvious mental disorder just do not make sense.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

It's not "hate" to be concerned when people encourage these children to try to masquerade as something they will never be, using mutilation and dangerous techniques that are largely unstudied as to the long term effects.  They need to be able to accept who and what they are.  They need therapy, not surgery and hormones.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

It's feeding a dangerous delusion.


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

Search American College of Pediatricians, ChrisL.  They are not a legit source, they are a hate group.

The American College of Pediatricians versus the American Academy of Pediatrics: Who leads and who follows?






They favor abstinence over sex education.  They oppose abortion.  They oppose gay marriage.

That's your source.

Here's some more information about them:]

Phony Medical Group Attempting to Peddle Anti-Gay Propaganda to Schools
Researchers and Physicians: The Religious Right Distorts Our LGBT Research!


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

And this story is the best...

The Failure of Cable News to Follow Up




> In case you missed it, *The American College of Pediatricians made national news this year after one of its chief activists, Dr. George Rekers, was caught vacationing with an escort he met on Rent Boy.com. *Only weeks before the scandal, this hypocritical group sent a letter to every public school superintendent in the nation. The pseudo-scientific letter condemned homosexuality and referred school officials to an anti-gay website, “Facts About Youth”, that was packed with junk science.
> 
> The website cherry picked quotes from legitimate researchers, including University of Minnesota scientist Dr. Gary Remafedi, who charged that the American College of Pediatricians was “knowingly misrepresenting research findings”.
> 
> ...


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

I strongly believe that "transgender" is a mental disorder and not a "physical" one.  It is pretty much the same as anorexia, as the Chief Psychiatrist at John Hopkins states.  That makes perfect sense.  You are not "born" into the wrong body.  Your body is your body.  These people need therapy to learn how to accept what they are and what they were born as.  Cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy can be dangerous.  Why would you do this to a perfectly physically healthy person?  Their problem is psychiatric, like anorexia.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

In order to support the idea that you were born into the "wrong body" then you must believe that there are "male" and "female" brains.  ???  Is there any evidence that these people have the "brains" of the opposite gender???  

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> I strongly believe that "transgender" is a mental disorder and not a "physical" one.  It is pretty much the same as anorexia, as the Chief Psychiatrist at John Hopkins states.  That makes perfect sense.  You are not "born" into the wrong body.  Your body is your body.  These people need therapy to learn how to accept what they are and what they were born as.  Cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy can be dangerous.  Why would you do this to a perfectly physically healthy person?  Their problem is psychiatric, like anorexia.



I provided you with information debunking your Chief Psychiatrist.  You ignored it.

You aren't interested in objectively looking at the issue, you are interested in confirming your own bias.

Noted.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

pillars said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I strongly believe that "transgender" is a mental disorder and not a "physical" one.  It is pretty much the same as anorexia, as the Chief Psychiatrist at John Hopkins states.  That makes perfect sense.  You are not "born" into the wrong body.  Your body is your body.  These people need therapy to learn how to accept what they are and what they were born as.  Cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy can be dangerous.  Why would you do this to a perfectly physically healthy person?  Their problem is psychiatric, like anorexia.
> ...



I don't believe your links because the doctor makes perfect sense, unlike your "ideas."  They are just silly!  Lol.


----------



## strollingbones (May 13, 2016)

having read off 8 prior pages.....first no one should be forced to live in a body that does not match their mental stage....why do people have such a negative reaction to someone modifying their bodies to suit themselves?  we do it all the time....people saying its unnatural to modify need to think about the far reaching way that could be taken.....are we wrong to have corrective surgeries?

  hormone blocking .....can be carried to extremes....and does have permanent consequences....this line of doing it now if better for them in the long run....i am not sure about this....i think right now all these fancy doctors may be experimenting with kids...esp the hormone specialist....what doctor doesnt want to be 'ground breaking' in their field and it beats the hell outta dealing with diabetics...

as a parent...my son flew thru stages......at 3 or 4 he picked up a doll and fell in love with her...named her and carried her everywhere he went for maybe a year or more....there was no reason to be upset over that....she would sit in his tonka truck while he build his mall...and the teen years...they are just harder to love.....the piercings....ears and nipples....grumpy began to get a wee bit upset at this stage....and then the goth stage....black finger nail polish and smoking pot in a dark room dressed in black thinking they are unique.....those were hard years ....there were the religious years.....drinking heavy and partying year and half at college....that did not go well......so now he is 20ish and all....suddenly his begins to mature....and begins to settle down.....the piercings are gone......still only the one tattoo....a red dragon...how original ...sorry i digress...easily....

my point being...he is none of those now..they were just weird stages he went thru.....and i as a parent feel its just our duty to get them thru those weird ass stages....without any permanent damage....even when they wanted to do surgery on his shoulder...i declined....it was something that could be put off....so i did....i figure if i have to signed for permission...other than the damned drivers license and minor issues like that......it can wait till he is an adult....17 is not nearly old enough to decide something of this magnitude ....

teenagers tend to be 'trendy' and the worse part...they are grasping with the ability to think abstractly.....not always a good thing...17 is too late for the blockers..and i think in my layman opinion too early for the trans....has he had any surgery...top?  i mean this cannot be reversed..

can you not accept him and get him to accept himself for a while......you see accepting as helping him trans.....i think it is way too early...there are not enough long term studies on how people who start this young do....again i think they are victims of doctors trying new things...a lot of the time...

and there is a lot of money in this....the top surgery and the bottom surgery runs 1000s....start with old school and adams apple shave


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> pillars said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



You remain a moron.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Obviously, transgenderism is a disease of the mind and NOT the body.  You are what you are.  These people will never be the opposite sex.  No amount of plastic surgery, hormones or makeup are going to change your sex.  It is unhealthy to make these people believe that it will, very unhealthy and it is feeding into a delusion.  

If a MtF transgender person dies and no finds him and the body deteriorate, guess what the medical examiner will determine?  It will be determined that he was a male.  He has male bone structure, muscle mass, and male internal organs.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

pillars said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > pillars said:
> ...



I think that would be you for buying into the PC nonsense.  Lol.    Obviously, you are born what you are born as.  It is a dysfunction of the mind, not the body.  The mind needs therapy, not the body.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Leave it to Pills to freak out and resort to juvenile name-calling.    Lol.


----------



## strollingbones (May 13, 2016)

okay i was corrected...this is female to male....o hell no.....the hormones are way too much at that age......do any of you remember being 17, i made a lot of bad decisions at that age.....o my my my


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

strollingbones said:


> having read off 8 prior pages.....first no one should be forced to live in a body that does not match their mental stage....why do people have such a negative reaction to someone modifying their bodies to suit themselves?  we do it all the time....people saying its unnatural to modify need to think about the far reaching way that could be taken.....are we wrong to have corrective surgeries?
> 
> hormone blocking .....can be carried to extremes....and does have permanent consequences....this line of doing it now if better for them in the long run....i am not sure about this....i think right now all these fancy doctors may be experimenting with kids...esp the hormone specialist....what doctor doesnt want to be 'ground breaking' in their field and it beats the hell outta dealing with diabetics...
> 
> ...



I would seek therapy for my child to help him or her deal with the psychological issues if my child thought "he" was a girl.  Obviously there is a problem here with the brain and not the body.  The surgery itself can be dangerous too, high risk for infections, failure rate, never being able to have children, and the list goes on.  The hormonal therapy is largely unknown when starting it during "pubertal" stages.  We do know that it can cause bone brittleness and cancer though.


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Leave it to Pills to freak out and resort to juvenile name-calling.    Lol.



No one is freaking out.  I've just stopped trying to teach a pig to dance.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

pillars said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Leave it to Pills to freak out and resort to juvenile name-calling.    Lol.
> ...



I suppose you'll run to your flamer zone and start a thread now?    Lol.  You are very juvenile.


----------



## pillars (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> pillars said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



No.  I'm going to stop paying attention to you.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

pillars said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > pillars said:
> ...



Oh, I'm so hurt.  Lol.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

It's totally NORMAL for children to be confused about "sexuality" and things like that.  I'm sure many children who were sexually abused (or perhaps any type of abuse) would be confused about their true "gender."  They make terrible decisions.  They are "impulsive" decision makers and take many unnecessary risks.  I'll be willing to bet that a lot of them would do things like "dress like a girl" for attention.  Some people (especially those with mental disorders) will do almost anything to get the attention they crave or the attention they did not receive as small children.  Their frontal lobes are not yet functioning, and that is something else to keep in mind. They are not yet capable of "critical thinking" skills which is why they are impulsive and risk takers.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Many "parents" are the abusers, keep that in mind.  So, what does "parental consent" really mean?  I'm sure there is something buried in these children's minds that makes them confused as to their gender identity.  They feel uncomfortable in their own skin for a damn reason, not because they were "born" thinking they were opposite gender.  That is silly beyond belief.  The only people who would believe this are extremists.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Decision-making is Still a Work in Progress for Teenagers - Brain Connection


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

The “Transsexual” Delusion

The word “transsexual” implies that the person is in process of or has made a transition between the two sexes. It is impossible, however, to transition from one sex to the other. The only transition possible for a person who believes that he or she is “transsexual” is from a whole person to a person with a mutilated body.

Transsexuality is presented as the conviction that one has been born into the wrong body – that while the body is one sex, the brain is the other. It follows that this “mistake” can be corrected with surgery and hormones, so that the “transsexual” person can live as a member of the desired sex rather than his or her birth sex. Since there is no scientific evidence to back up the belief a person’s body can be one sex and their brain the other, transsexuality may be characterized as a delusion. The general criteria for a delusion are:


certainty (it is held with absolute conviction);
incorrigibility (it is not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary);
impossibility or falsity of content (the belief is implausible, bizarre or patently untrue).
The transsexual delusion (TD) leads to sexual identity dysphoria – a profound unhappiness with the biological reality. Transsexuals insist since that they can’t change their brain, the only way to alleviate their dysphoria is to surgically alter their bodies. They become obsessed with the idea of surgery and are willing to make tremendous sacrifices in order to obtain this solution – including alienation from family, loss of career, substantial expenses, and considerable pain. Given our knowledge of neural plasticity, it is certainly possible that the brain could be altered to relieve much of the dysphoria associated with the transsexual delusion, however, persons experiencing a transsexual delusion generally resist therapy. The availability of surgery convinces them that their perception of reality is true and that all they need to do is to persevere.  They become extremely anxious when their desire for surgery is delayed or frustrated. They can become angry to the point of narcissistic rage when their delusion is challenged, as illustrated by the vicious attacks by surgically altered men on J. Michael Bailey, author of _The Man Who Would Be Queen._[1]

Delusions are often encapsulated, that is they affect only one part of life. The rest of the persons’ lives and their ability to think logically may not be affected, although eventually the delusion may lead them to make tremendous sacrifices to sustain their view of reality.

Is the belief that one was born in the wrong body implausible or patently untrue? Yes.


Every cell of the body of a person claiming to be “transsexual” contains DNA that is clearly marked male or female. The DNA in the brain is the same as the DNA in the rest of the body. The transsexual community has tried to associate its claim to have been born in the wrong body with the situation of persons with genetic disorders and Sexual Development Disorders, however, persons claiming to be transsexual are virtually always genetically and physical healthy, normal males or females.
There is no evidence of a genetic cause for the transsexual desires. There are reported cases of identical twins where one was transsexual and the other wasn’t. The hormones that trigger the development of the sexual organs also affect the brain and create subtle but real differences between the sexes. There is no evidence for “prenatal hormones affected the brain but not the body” theory.
While transsexuals insist that they have the brains of their desired sex, in fact many of their behaviors resemble their actual sex. For example, the sexual activity pattern of transsexuals with same-sex attraction (SSA) is similar to that of other men with SSA – the desire for many partners and willingness to engage in anonymous and uncommitted sexual relationships. Another type of transsexuality — autogynephilia, (a man who is in love with the image of himself as a woman) — is categorized as a paraphilia. Paraphilias are found predominantly in males.  In addition, autogynephilias are predominantly attracted to women, and some insist that they are lesbians, when the more obvious explanation is that they are men who have retained their masculine attraction to women, even though they have been surgically altered to resemble women.
Male transsexuals have a stereotyped and inaccurate understanding of what it means to be a woman.
SSA transsexuals insist that have always felt like the other sex. While the feelings of alienation from the actual birth sex may have begun in early child, this can be explained by interactions between the child and family members. Small boys who are considered effeminate or girlish do not, in fact, resemble girls of the same age. For example, girls have expansive interests and are capable of wearing dresses or jeans, playing with dolls or in the sandbox, playing games outside or inside. In contrast to this, these “girlish” boys are uncomfortable with boyish clothing, rough-and-tumble play, and in general limited in their range of activities. In addiction, many of these boys have other psychological problems.
Surgery does not change a person’s sex. Surgeons can simulate the appearance of the external sexual organs of the other sex, but they cannot make the simulated organs reproductively functional.
Surgery destroys the possibility of future fertility. The willingness to surrender one’s potential fertility as though it were nothing points to the power of the transsexual delusion.
The transsexual delusion is a denial of the unity of the human person.
The surgical solution may be a fad, comparable to psychiatry’s embrace of frontal lobotomies or raising genetic boys with genital deformities as girls. This too may in time be recognized as unethical mutilation. There has already been a change in attitudes among “sexual minorities” even in the last decade. Many teenagers who are confused about sexual identity and attractions are choosing to be identify as “Gender Queer.” Rejecting identification as one sex or the other, they move between the sexes or present themselves as something in between. It is difficult to say what they will choose when they grow up, but it is possible that as sexual stereotypes become less pervasive, surgery may become as less popular. Partial solutions (that is, women who do undergo breast removal or hysterectomies but do not choose to have a pseudo penis and testicles, or men who have breast implants but retain their genitals) are also becoming more popular.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> I think it's just as bad as encouraging your child to have any other cosmetic surgery.  It can also be dangerous.  You have to learn to accept yourself for what you are.


No, because sex drive is imposed on you, whether you like it or not.  And after that, you have to follow the role your genitals assign on you, or you will not be accepted and end up like a reject freak, forever.  Even the biggest bully can take that only for so long.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's just as bad as encouraging your child to have any other cosmetic surgery.  It can also be dangerous.  You have to learn to accept yourself for what you are.
> ...



Then you go get yourself some psychiatric help to deal with who you are.  You aren't going to magically become the opposite sex just because you wish it to be the case.  Wishes are like buttholes, everyone has one.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Chris--

Do you know any transgender human beings or is your opinion intellectual only?

Dhara


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


I think it is worse.  From science, it looks that there are two separate parts of the neuro system that deal with desires, sexual or other.  One part is responsible for the desire for something, and it is a separate part that is responsible for getting satisfaction and thereby balance the desire. If these two parts are not matched, you get either a passive person, or an unsatisfiable bully.  The transgender psychology is widely observed to fall in the second category.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



Post a link to a reputable site please.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Do you want to look at the other side of this Chris?  Or is any parent who agrees to let their child start hormone therapy abusive?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


You mean one that is not trained with the stupid anglosaxon LGBT propaganda that homosexuality is not a decease?  I was trying the scientific approach.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)




----------



## Moonglow (May 13, 2016)

I am glad my kids didn't go through a mentally combative move in having a sex change...


----------



## Michelle420 (May 13, 2016)

I support teens defining their gender preferences. The spectrum is broad.

Home


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



A "decease?"  Lol.  You mean "disease?"  Good grief.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



You have any credentials to be using a "scientific approach?"  I imagine that you do not.  Link?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Do you want to look at the other side of this Chris?  Or is any parent who agrees to let their child start hormone therapy abusive?


Is the child malformed physically or mentally?  And if yes, then is that caused hormonally?  If yes to both, then a restorative hormon therapy may be useful.  Otherwise it is biologically dangerous and should wait till adulthood.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Do you want to look at the other side of this Chris?  Or is any parent who agrees to let their child start hormone therapy abusive?



Not necessarily abusive but not doing the child any favors either.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)




----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want to look at the other side of this Chris?  Or is any parent who agrees to let their child start hormone therapy abusive?
> ...


My son says otherwise.  I care about him more than your opinion.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

9 Inspirational Stories of Transgender Kids & Their Supportive Parents


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



Your son is a child whose frontal lobes are not yet fully functioning.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Moonglow said:


> I am glad my kids didn't go through a mentally combative move in having a sex change...



Must be hard on the kids and the parents too, but I still think that potentially dangerous and life changing surgery and hormones are NOT the way to go with this.  It could ruin the kid's life permanently.


----------



## Michelle420 (May 13, 2016)

If teens brains are mature enough to use birth control hormones, be sexually active and have abortions in some instances they can decide how to express their own gender identity and not need to conform to what a particular society is socially constructing because of what genitals they are born with.

If people are worried about effects of hormones why not worry about the other drugs kids are given and the effect on the brain and body?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > I am glad my kids didn't go through a mentally combative move in having a sex change...
> ...


My son is nearly 17.  Next July he will be 18.  He will have the surgery then and it won't be up to me anymore.  You can lose a kid if you are not supportive of who he is.

Don't think I didn't make him see 2 psychiatrists and 3 pediatric endocrinologist before I agreed.  This is no light thing and I wouldn't have wished it on anyone.  Try and imagine how this kid feels.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



If I may ask, what did the two psychiatrists say?


----------



## Moonglow (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > I am glad my kids didn't go through a mentally combative move in having a sex change...
> ...


Working security in night clubs,I saw a lot of sad little bois that became happy little gurls................


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


The last time this was scientifically discussed in the English language was in the early 1980's, which is when homosexuality was removed from the DSM publication of the surgeon general, which is used nationwide as a basis of legal coding of medical diagnoses.  The two neurological processes working independently was a fact even back then though, although this is ancient history.  Nature is built after much more shoddy plans than what we would expect.


----------



## Moonglow (May 13, 2016)

I want to become asexual....
BIOLOGY
(of reproduction) not involving the fusion of gametes.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



Sorry, I'm not buying it.  I think it is a psychological disorder similar to anorexia, a body dysmorphic syndrome.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



I don't lack empathy for your or his situation.  I just don't think that surgery and hormone therapy is the right course.  That's my opinion on the matter.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want to look at the other side of this Chris?  Or is any parent who agrees to let their child start hormone therapy abusive?
> ...


He's one year away from being old enough to have surgery.  Hormones at 17 is not an extremely radical treatment.  He has been living as a male already for 3 years.  His bio mom's comment was "Now I know why he went to school pissed off everyday after I'd fix his hair and put him a dress every day".


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


So you agree with me then.  The dis balance between the two systems causes the two types of psychological disorders that I described.  The drive versus satisfaction problem.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Yes, I know it's your opinion.  

My wife and I wish he was just a tomboy girl than to have to alter his body like this.

My son says he NEVER wanted to give birth.  (Bio mom had nine children and he is the oldest.).


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


They both concurred that my son did not have any psychiatric diagnosis that would make hormone therapy for him inappropriate.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


Are his genitals female?  The biggest problem is to match the sceletal structure with the new body biology. At 17 this may not be too late, but can't be done earlier either.  Although, if this is a female to male transformation, then males have usually a lot less scrutiny about their bodies by the opposite gender lovers.  In this case, what I would be most puzzled about would be, how to install a working penis on him/her.  There are transplant surgeries and these days they are usually successful, but if the underlying tissues are not the right arrangement, then how do you make them work?  Genital transplants are usually successful for repairs like bodged circumcision or accident restoration.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Why all the focus on their genitals?  Doesn't this, in and of itself, seem an unhealthy obsession?  Focus on being a happy "person."  The obsession with mutilating their genitals is extremely bothersome.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



Did they have an opinion concerning his desire to want to transition into another gender identity.  
Personally, I don't know a transgender person, but I would never impose my views on them.  Admittedly, I don't understand the strong desire to want to change one's gender, but then there are thousands of things I don't understand.
You seem very caring and loving, and the world needs more people like you.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...


He was allowed to legally change his name when we adopted him.  He chose a male name.  Since he's been getting hormone therapy, his doctor has written a letter declaring him male even though he is one year awy from surgery.

He will have a new birth certificate saying male, and when he gets his driver's license this summer, he will have ID with his photo on it saying male.  We will get passports soon after that.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


Their opinion was positive about my son transitioning to male.  He's been living as male for nearly 3 years now.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Most often, female to male "bottom" surgeries do not work out well at all.  They can create a "penis" but it is usually not functional.  Sad.  Sad that these people focus on their "genitals" to bring them happiness.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Why all the focus on their genitals?  Doesn't this, in and of itself, seem an unhealthy obsession?  Focus on being a happy "person."  The obsession with mutilating their genitals is extremely bothersome.


What if you as a woman woke up one day as you are and found a penis attached to you.  Wouldn't you want it cut off?

He's walking around flattening his breasts, and hating his genitals.  He isn't interested in sex .  He's more developing psychologically than being a physical male.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Most often, female to male "bottom" surgeries do not work out well at all.  They can create a "penis" but it is usually not functional.  Sad.  Sad that these people focus on their "genitals" to bring them happiness.



Thank about it this way, what if you had experienced a double mastectomy, would you want to have reconstructive surgery to provide you with a new set of breasts?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Why all the focus on their genitals?  Doesn't this, in and of itself, seem an unhealthy obsession?  Focus on being a happy "person."  The obsession with mutilating their genitals is extremely bothersome.


This is probably where females and males differ.  I guess it is possible that females can be perfectly happy never to use their funnies.  But males are rarely if ever programmed with such an option.  Every impotent male is in a tail spin.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Most often, female to male "bottom" surgeries do not work out well at all.  They can create a "penis" but it is usually not functional.  Sad.  Sad that these people focus on their "genitals" to bring them happiness.


It's not as sad as you'd think.   Some trans kids who have the surgery are in supportive relationships and their mates and family support them.

Gender is more than genitals.    Funny, I've mused more than once with my wife, "why can't he just be  a nice normal lesbian"?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Most often, female to male "bottom" surgeries do not work out well at all.  They can create a "penis" but it is usually not functional.  Sad.  Sad that these people focus on their "genitals" to bring them happiness.
> ...



That is apples and oranges.  Mastectomies are done because the breasts are diseased.  These people have healthy and functional genitals, but they are obsessed with them, as if THAT is what will bring them happiness in this life.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Most often, female to male "bottom" surgeries do not work out well at all.  They can create a "penis" but it is usually not functional.  Sad.  Sad that these people focus on their "genitals" to bring them happiness.


I actually watched a "bottom surgery" with my son.  (on a video).  His request.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Most often, female to male "bottom" surgeries do not work out well at all.  They can create a "penis" but it is usually not functional.  Sad.  Sad that these people focus on their "genitals" to bring them happiness.
> ...



Statistics say they are not actually "happy" following the surgery either, because their genitals are not the problem.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Well, not every trans is the same.  They don't all care about bottom surgery


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Many men have left their wives/girlfriends because of mastectomies; therefore, breasts are a large part of a woman's sexuality.
You keep saying transgenders are obsessed with their genitals, but you don't give a reason as to why.  Caitlyn Jenner still has a penis, and most likely using it to copulate.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


This is not sufficient, and this will not help him.  In this case, if this is all that can be done, and a working biological penis is not guaranteed, then she is better with keeping her female body, and continue as a lesbian.  This will remain a problem for her forever, until a psychological or rather a brain neuro surgical cure can be found for her condition.  If her new penis has a chance of not getting erect hard upon a touch, then she should not give up her currently working genitals. I would advice her for a lesbian lifestyle then as opposed to a male one.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


What statistics?  How much research is there?  This is leading edge right now being sorted out.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...


You're disrespectful calling my son, a girl.  He may not have his prosthetic cock and balls but he is NO girl.  Not a bit.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



The stats are mentioned in several of the links I've posted.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Then those men are creeps and didn't really love their mates.  Goodness, some women are flat chested and live perfectly normal lives.  Lol.  IOW, there is a LOT more to life than your genitals or your sexuality.


----------



## Tilly (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


Jenner has said he made a mistake and wants to be a man again.  Maybe you should use a choose a different example?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


This is very new.  It has not been studied as much as it needs to be.  Would I prefer my son have been born some time in the future so it would all be worked out in advance and completely accepted?

Yes, but then I would have missed the pleasure of knowing him.  He's a remarkable young man.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

Tilly said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I really don't have a menu of examples.
Does he really want to be Bruce again?  If so, why is he continuing with his show?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Tilly said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Jenner is no poster child for my family.  We can't stand her.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Quite honestly, I don't like her either.  It seems to be all about her and not her family.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

I think this all seems to be a lot more than just "the genitals don't match how I "think".


----------



## Tilly (May 13, 2016)

I


Lilah said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


hmmmmm lets see? Do you think you could hazard a guess?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Tilly said:
> ...


Jenner is selfish.  My son says grudgingly, (while hating Jenner), that trans issues would not have been so visible if not for Jenner's fame.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

Tilly said:


> I
> 
> 
> Lilah said:
> ...



Just tell me.


----------



## Tilly (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


If anything is new, the kids shouldn't be experimented upon.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> I think this all seems to be a lot more than just "the genitals don't match how I "think".


It's very uncomfortable for most people to relate to, so we'd all like to distance ourselves by making them psychos.

Some trans are mentally ill, and many are not.  IF you see the ones who've grown up in supportive families and communities, and who "pass" very well you'd have less concern.  My opinion only.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



The look on Lamar Odom's face when he met Caitlyn said it all.
Bruce, a sixty-something-year-old man one day, and the next a sixty-something-year-old man with boobs.  It's hard to understand.


----------



## Tilly (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


Yet you want teachers to wear badges and you've proudly said yourself and your son are militant activists?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I think this all seems to be a lot more than just "the genitals don't match how I "think".
> ...



There are different degrees of "mentally ill" such as anorexics.  They are not dangerous (except to themselves).


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Tilly said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


They are not science experiments.  AND of course, this is new in many ways.  Without the struggle and success of marriage equality this would not be openly discussed at all.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Body Dysmorphic Disorder


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Tilly said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


My son isn't "militant".  Maybe to you he is.  He values and lives from a code of social justice and has a high enough self-esteem to advocate for political causes he agrees with.  He's a big Bernie Sanders fan, even though he isn't old enough to vote.

He's in AP Pscyhology and History classes.

Being political doesn't make him a "militant".


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Body Dysmorphic Disorder


I'm not going to post much opposite reading because I see you will only read what agrees with your prejudice.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


Of course it is.  You should have seen my face 25 years ago when a MTF transgender showed up  in my career counseling office looking for a job.

I was very uncomfortable.  Sad, to say.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Though anorexia is a different disease entirely, the symptoms fit "body dysmorphic disorder" just as transgenderism does.  They are "unhappy" in their own skin and feel as if something is wrong with them physically, but it is not at all physical but all mental.  

Symptoms and causes - Anorexia nervosa - Mayo Clinic

The exact cause of anorexia nervosa is unknown. As with many diseases, it's probably a combination of biological, psychological and environmental factors.


*Biological.* Although it's not yet clear which genes are involved, there may be genetic changes that make some people more vulnerable to developing anorexia. Some people may have a genetic tendency toward perfectionism, sensitivity and perseverance — all traits associated with anorexia.
*Psychological.* Some emotional characteristics may contribute to anorexia. Young women may have obsessive-compulsive personality traits that make it easier to stick to strict diets and forgo food despite being hungry. They may have an extreme drive for perfectionism, causing them to think they're never thin enough. They may have high levels of anxiety and restrict their eating to reduce it.
*Environmental.* Modern Western culture emphasizes thinness. Success and worth are often equated with being thin. Peer pressure may help fuel the desire to be thin, particularly among young girls.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

It is not very healthy to be obsessed with your sexuality or your genitals.  To me, that, in and of itself, is a sign of body dysmorphic disorder.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

My son's role models are Gandhi and MLK.  Hardly militants but highly effective leaders of civil rights.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Body Dysmorphic Disorder
> ...



You won't read other things, and then accuse ME of doing what you are doing.  Lol.    Funny.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> It is not very healthy to be obsessed with your sexuality or your genitals.  To me, that, in and of itself, is a sign of body dysmorphic disorder.


Well, I'd say my son is LESS obsessed with his gentials then most teenage boys his age.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


If he was a male, then he would not find this disrespectful.  You are proving now that he is not a male.  I think you are making this whole thing up.  I have found, that there is no male element in anything that you disclosed.  But so be it, this is still interesting, even at a hypothetical level.


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Some say that to allow anyone under 18 to get hormone treatment is child abuse.  I disagree.  The younger a person starts to transition the more successful the transition physically and psychologically.
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> I am the parent of a transgender youth, due to turn 17 in July.




40% of post op Transgenders attempt suicide.  

So, yes, you are supporting child abuse to send your child upon such a path.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I read EVERTYTHING on this topic.  Even stuff I don't agree with.  I"ve changed in my outlook due to education.  That's the only hope for atitude adjustment.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

boedicca said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Some say that to allow anyone under 18 to get hormone treatment is child abuse.  I disagree.  The younger a person starts to transition the more successful the transition physically and psychologically.
> ...


Link to proof?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

There is a popular myth going around that attempts to quote from this 2003 Swedish study:

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

People using this study do so selectively. Let me explain the statistical manipulation going on with gender surgery detractors and the myth they try to construct.

First they note that general population rates for suicidality are around 1.6% in the United States. Then they note that suicidality rates for post-op transsexual people are about 4.1%. They then claim that since this is “hundreds of percent higher” that surgery does not work.

But let’s talk about the reality. What is that reality? It is that the pre-op suicidality rate for transsexuals is 41%!!!

Yep, that’s right. Pre-op rates of suicidality for transsexuals are 1000% higher than post-op rates. How do we know this? From the UCLA Williams Institute study Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults. (Warning! PDF!)
The Myth of Post-Op Regret And Suicidality


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> My son's role models are Gandhi and MLK.  Hardly militants but highly effective leaders of civil rights.




Did either one attempt self-mutilation of their genetalia?

And for clarification, are you referring to your son pre-or-post tran?  IOW, is he currently a she trying to become a he, or the opposite?


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



Here you go.

Transgender People and Suicide: The Tragedy, and the Hope


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Good, so it's not just me. Thread!  Still funny.  I can imagine though, that aggressive, belligerent, abusive, and over earing parenting can force children to become homosexual teens.  Your take?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Sure.  Some trans kids are a mess, adults a worse mess.  AND there are brilliant successes too.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

boedicca said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Some say that to allow anyone under 18 to get hormone treatment is child abuse.  I disagree.  The younger a person starts to transition the more successful the transition physically and psychologically.
> ...



I believe the suicide rates remain high postoperatively because surgery does not correct the problem.  They need intensive therapy and not surgery, but as my links show, they are in fact suffering from a mental illness, and they become extremely agitated whenever someone suggests therapy as an alternative to surgery because they know the surgery is available to them.  They feel that surgery and hormones are going to "cure" them, when I don't believe that is the case at all.  Like giving an anorexic liposuction.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Damn, I told my wife we'd get blamed for my son's transgender affinity.


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

I'm rather shocked and repulsed that the OP has such a cavalier and uninformed outlook on what she is supporting for her gender indeterminate offspring.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



Perhaps that could be the case.  I'm sure there are multiple factors that could result in such a syndrome.  It also depends on the person, the type of abuse and length of time of abuse too, I'm sure.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


The Swedish study actually supports gender surgery. Their conclusion?

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

The Myth of Post-Op Regret And Suicidality


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...




Oh, I agree.   Transgenderism is a type of body dysmorphic disorder.   Whacking off or extending one's genitals and taking hormones aren't going to fix an extreme self-image mental issue.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

boedicca said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Some say that to allow anyone under 18 to get hormone treatment is child abuse.  I disagree.  The younger a person starts to transition the more successful the transition physically and psychologically.
> ...


Thank you.  This is more justification for me, that I suggested that she keeps her female body and continues as lesbian.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Damn, I told my wife we'd get blamed for my son's transgender affinity.



Why was he put up for adoption?  Did you tell me that his biological mother was a drug addict?


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



Poor conservative christian Caitlyn Jenner is rumored to be considering a reversal of ZER transgender surgery because ZE thinks having relationships with women is a sin.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

boedicca said:


> I'm rather shocked and repulsed that the OP has such a cavalier and uninformed outlook on what she is supporting for her gender indeterminate offspring.


I'm not shocked by your negativity.  

My son is adopted.  He is formerly my foster child.  He is grateful to be with us as his parents.  His past life was very sad.  

I'm not uninformed nor cavelier, AND you're probably going to get ugly about this so I will put you on ignore.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > I'm rather shocked and repulsed that the OP has such a cavalier and uninformed outlook on what she is supporting for her gender indeterminate offspring.
> ...



I would be very interested to find out about what went on in his past life.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Also, I've just remembered this. Many homosexuals report that head injury in accident turned them homosexual and caused them to break up with their earlier heterosexual partners.  So, brain damage is likely at play here.  Another statistics that the LGBT bully group will suppress forever, nationwide.  Maybe Dhara could check this child's early medical records of injuries, before saying yes to more insurance cash going to sex surgery clinics.  Hehe.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Damn, I told my wife we'd get blamed for my son's transgender affinity.
> ...


He was in foster care with my wife and me for nearly 3 years before we were able to adopt him.  Yes, his mother is a drug addict  He is the oldest of nine children.  We adopted 4 of the 7 children available for adoption


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > I'm rather shocked and repulsed that the OP has such a cavalier and uninformed outlook on what she is supporting for her gender indeterminate offspring.
> ...




Scuze moi, but it's quite clear that you have done very little research on such a serious matter.  That is, by definition, a display of a very CAVALIER attitude towards a life changing decision.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



Did he suffer from neglect/abuse?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Why is he the way he is?  I have no idea.  Why was I born a daughter of a gay man, and a lesbian.  I have no idea.  Three generation queer.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Yes.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



Do you think perhaps that might play a role in his "confusion" about his gender/sex?


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Why is he the way he is?  I have no idea.  Why was I born a daughter of a gay man, and a lesbian.  I have no idea.  Three generation queer.



There is your answer. The poor boy likely thinks he needs to do this for parental approval.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


That has been fully evaluated by 5 doctors, none of whom suggest telling him he's a girl, give it up.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



I'm sorry, but there is no "cure" for some mental illnesses, but potentially dangerous and life-altering surgery and hormonal therapy (which is known to cause health problems) is not the answer when a person has a perfectly healthy and normally functioning body.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


He will likely be in therapy the rest of his life.  Why not wish him well instead hoping this fails?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

boedicca said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Why is he the way he is?  I have no idea.  Why was I born a daughter of a gay man, and a lesbian.  I have no idea.  Three generation queer.
> ...


Hardly.  I would have much preferred a cisgender daughter than to raise a trans gender son.  He didn't do this for MY approval or anyone elses.  He's doing this because it feels right to him and he's wanted to do this his whole life, long before he met us.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Why can't you listen to the young person who feels as though he is a male.  Listen to him!


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Stop crucifying this person.  Who the hell do you think you are?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

By the way, on the suicide aspect of the post op tranny part, I could bet, that that statistics is exactly equal to the historically observed suicide rate wbetween castrated servants.  It is a direct result of very fast hormonal level decrease in the blood.


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



One may listen without enabling.

Just sayin'.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


This is a hypothetical, no real person here.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

boedicca said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



One may listen and also love unconditionally.
The young person going through this needs to be heard and understood.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


My son is a real person.  He's  a real human being and so am I.


----------



## boedicca (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...




Logic challenged, much?

Loving unconditionally does not equate with enabling children in irreversible, life-changing decisions with extreme consequences.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

This is not your decision.  You are free to think whatever you choose.  This is my son's life and his choice, which I support.  Wish him well.  It won't kill you.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

boedicca said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



I'm listening to this parent, and the parent is listening to their child and trying to understand how the teenager feels, and what makes him happy.  
Transgenderism is an alien topic to most of us; therefore, we should listen and try to understand rather than taking the easy road and offer our judgments.
Admittedly, I cringe at the thought of Bruce Jenner changing into Caitlyn Jenner, but I don't know everything.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


Brilliant.  May we all be this enlightened.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


Hehehe, maybe you can write like one and then we will believe it.  But why does that matter anyways?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Dhara, you are the enlightened one.
My grandmother was a psychiatrist, brilliant, and she taught me never to judge, but I do.  Listening to you reminds me that we all need to learn tolerance and love.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



So, would you give your 16-year-old child permission to take potentially dangerous hormones and then have a potentially dangerous operation?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



And how, pray tell, am I "crucifying" anyone?  I'm simply responding to a thread that was created with my thoughts and opinions on the matter.  Lol.  You need to calm down I think.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I don't know this young person, nor am I speaking with him.  Lol.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...



I can't possibly answer your question.
When his son turns 18, should the son be able to make his own decisions?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I'm calm and I'm trying to listen to Dhara, but all you're doing is judging and making snarky remarks.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


But crucifying is your favorite thing though, isn't it?  That's why we love you.  . Whehehehe.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



The son is not 18.  The son is 16.  Would you give your permission to give your daughter or son possibly dangerous chemicals because he or she thought they were the opposite "gender?"  It's a simple and straightforward question.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



He is speaking through Dhara.  Have you paid attention?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I haven't made any "snarky" remarks, nor have I made any judgments. I am stating my opinions and feelings on the topic.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Do you really want me to give you an honest answer for a hypothetical question?  I'm not invested in the situation; therefore, surely you can understand my opinion doesn't matter.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



What in the hell are you talking about?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Of course you've made judgments.  Do back and read your posts.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Well, yes, I want to know.  That is why I asked.  Do you have any children?  If so, would you give them hormonal therapy and be okay with that because your 16-year-old child says that is what he or she wanted, even knowing there are dangerous side effects such as cancer?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I already know what I've posted.  My opinions on the matter.  Now, get a grip on yourself.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

No problem here, gender reassignment surgeries have already been pioneered by Doctor mengele in Auschwitz.  We are talking about a Jewish adoption here.  Straightforward, no mystery here.  Hehehe.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



No, I don't have children.  Children are given medications all the time which may affect them adversely.  
I'm trying to understand how a transgender person feels and why they feel the way they do.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I read your judgments, and if you can't own them, grab hold of own self.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



So, what if you did have a daughter who thought she was a boy?  Would you give her hormonal therapy to stop her "maturity" and that are, otherwise, medically risky?  It's a simple question.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I've posted my opinions on this matter.  I suppose every thread WE reply to could be construed as "judgments".  That is the nature of a message board.  Now, stop with the personal attacks and participate in the discussion like an adult.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Are you mental?  How do you expect me to answer such a hypothetical scenario?  What if your child expressed to you that they were having a gender identity crisis.  What would you do?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I think we all know who the adult here is; it's me.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

I think a past history of abuse plays a major role in "gender confusion."  I don't think hormones and surgery are going to "cure" these issues.  In fact, they could possibly make them even worse, since changing a boy into a girl and vice versa is biologically impossible.  It is important to teach your children to be happy with who they are and to teach them that there is much, much more to life than their genitals and their sexuality.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I wouldn't give them hormones and I would advise against surgery and hormones if they were over 18 and implore that they get the psychiatric help that they need.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


This has been widely studied, until it was shut down for political purposes.  The core of transgender and homosexual feelings is the clinical inability to get satisfaction, at minimum at the mental level.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

A past history of abuse, neglect and having a very low self esteem most definitely play a role in this kind of confusion, very similar to the anorexic who thinks she is "fat."


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> I think a past history of abuse plays a major role in "gender confusion."  I don't think hormones and surgery are going to "cure" these issues.  In fact, they could possibly make them even worse, since changing a boy into a girl and vice versa is biologically impossible.  It is important to teach your children to be happy with who they are and to teach them that there is much, much more to life than their genitals and their sexuality.



A history of abuse can manifest into many areas of confusion.  Why are you looking for an excuse to not listen.
Bruce Jenner was not abused.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I don't think so.  Lol.  If you cannot handle opposing opinions on a message board, then you are no adult.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Do you speak with authority?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I think a past history of abuse plays a major role in "gender confusion."  I don't think hormones and surgery are going to "cure" these issues.  In fact, they could possibly make them even worse, since changing a boy into a girl and vice versa is biologically impossible.  It is important to teach your children to be happy with who they are and to teach them that there is much, much more to life than their genitals and their sexuality.
> ...



How do you know?  Abuse can take many different forms.  What do you know of Bruce Jenner's upbringing?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Psychiatry of parenting induced, but neurosurgery more like when the problem is so severe, likely indicating physical trauma.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I'm not the one who is refusing to listen, and I've made no judgments.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

There are also mental illnesses where a person needs "attention" at any cost.  That in itself is a type of mental disorder.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Only what he revealed to Diane Sawyer, saying he had a nice home life, but he always wanted to dress as a girl.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I have been listening.  I just disagree.  I think there is much more to this issue than simply "genitals" and sexuality.  It is important to teach your children to be happy with who they are.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> There are also mental illnesses where a person needs "attention" at any cost.  That in itself is a type of mental disorder.



No one is disputing that mental illnesses exist.  What's your point?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



A lot of people who were abused don't even realize it, a distant mother who didn't pay a lot of attention, an absent father figure, as well as just plain old mental illness, and then these factors combine to compound the problems.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


I am a student, although not of medicine (maths).  But I know a few people, and my statement squares not only with medical literature, but also with my direct observations.  Is that good enough?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > There are also mental illnesses where a person needs "attention" at any cost.  That in itself is a type of mental disorder.
> ...



Who's not listening now?  Lol.  I think I've made my stance on this issue quite clear.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Of course, parents should teach their children self-esteem, but apparently some children are experiencing gender identity, and I haven't heard them talking about their genitals; only you.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

I'm actually a certified medical assistant, and I also majored in psychology for a while.  I also type about patients with mental illness every single day and have for years, so I think I do know a little bit.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



Aren't we all students.  Some of us choose to listen rather than dictate how life should be.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Is that not the ultimate goal?  To change from a penis to a vagina or a vagina to a penis?  Why do you think that is?  Why so much emphasis on mutilating their genitals?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> I'm actually a certified medical assistant, and I also majored in psychology for a while.  I also type about patients with mental illness every single day and have for years, so I think I do know a little bit.



Stop the presses!  Do you offer diagnoses?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



The fact of the matter is that the suicide rates amongst those who are postoperative transsexuals remains extremely high.  These hormones and surgery do not "cure" them.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I'm actually a certified medical assistant, and I also majored in psychology for a while.  I also type about patients with mental illness every single day and have for years, so I think I do know a little bit.
> ...



Nope, but I sure am probably more "qualified" to give my opinions on these types of matters than you are.  No?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



It seems, after listening to Bruce Jenner's interview, that he didn't know if he wanted to have the surgery.  Seems his desire was to live as a woman.  I don't understand it, but who am I to judge him?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I'm actually a certified medical assistant, and I also majored in psychology for a while.  I also type about patients with mental illness every single day and have for years, so I think I do know a little bit.
> ...



Are you going to contribute to this discussion, or just keep making accusations?    Obviously you have some issue with me, as others on this thread have been much more "crass" but you haven't been bothering with their statements.  So what?  What's your problem, stranger?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I didn't ask you to "judge" him.  Did I?  I asked you a simple question of why you think that is the case, why so much emphasis on mutilating perfectly functioning genitalia?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



*No, High Suicide Rates Do Not Demonstrate That Transgender ...*


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I don't you, therefore, I have no issues with you.  
You seem disturbed that I have an opinion that differs from yours. 
Do you need to get into your 'safe zone?'


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I'm not buying it, and they even admit that they don't know either.  Why perform such "macabre" experiments on a healthy person?  Do you realize the side effects and life long problems these people have to deal with postoperatively?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



You are the one emphasizing genital mutilation.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



You are the one making accusations.  I was not addressing you.  Lol.    If I recall correctly, you started with me on another thread about my opinion on religions as well, no?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...


Especially considering, that historically, the suicide rates were observed very high too, amongst castrated servants within the first four months of their castration.  This is attributed to the quick hormonal changes in the blood, caused by the surgery.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



That is what the "sex change" surgery is about.  Lol.  Trying to change a penis into a vagina or vice versa.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



It really doesn't matter what you choose to buy.  It's not your life and you don't a say in it.
Try being a little more tolerant.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



OMG!


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



This is a thread on a message board where we all can input our opinions, and that is what I've been doing.  Nowhere have I been derogatory, so cut the crap.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



How profound.  You've summed up a person's life so easily.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



What does this mean?  Are you here to participate in this discussion?  Why are you here?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



You may tell others what to do, but not me.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



What do you think sex change surgery is?  Isn't the term "sex change" enough to tell you?  Lol.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



Why are you here?    
Do I need a reservation?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



You are the one telling me what to do and making false accusations.  Now, I would suggest that you move along or participate in the discussion like an adult, please.  TIA.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



You're being juvenile.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I haven't told you what to do nor would I.
Aren't you a grown woman?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



I'm here to give my opinions on this matter, as I have been doing.  You?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


Tell it to the nearest bully, who in this case is likely to be one of the care takers of this confused child.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



How so?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Well then you can stop accusing me of things and give your opinions on the topic.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



To listen to Dhara and try to gain some understanding about transgenderism.  My opinion doesn't matter.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Stop it, please!


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


She is actually a very beautifully grown woman.  ChrisL please correct me if I am wrong.  Too bad, you have worked yourself to the edge of her dick.  Hehehe.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Okay, then do that.  I will do what I'm doing.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



My opinions don't matter because I don't understand transgenderism.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I thought beauty was in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Correct.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Obviously.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Well, then you can continue to read.  Whatevs.  Lol.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



OMG!


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



OMG, what?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Thank you.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I think you know.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


No it isn't.  My girl goes to them gym every second day, and I know she is not doing it for me, she is doing it for herself, as it should be.  Beauty is with its source, not its beholder, you liberal prankster, whehehe.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Anyway, as I was saying before I was so RUDELY interrupted (lol), I think that this is a problem that is related to mental health and abuse.  Your body is what it is.  You are what you were born as.  If you cannot accept that, then that is not a problem with the "body" which is healthy and functioning normally.  It would be much more consistent with an issue with the mind not being able to accept the reality, whether that be due to abuse or some other psychological issues at play.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



No, I don't.  Why don't you share.  Is it to do with the topic of discussion?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



Topic, topic.  Please stay on topic.  Thanks.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Anyway, as I was saying before I was so RUDELY interrupted (lol), I think that this is a problem that is related to mental health and abuse.  Your body is what it is.  You are what you were born as.  If you cannot accept that, then that is not a problem with the "body" which is healthy and functioning normally.  It would be much more consistent with an issue with the mind not being able to accept the reality, whether that be due to abuse or some other psychological issues at play.



The floor is all yours.  
Wipe it clean.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



What's the topic?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, as I was saying before I was so RUDELY interrupted (lol), I think that this is a problem that is related to mental health and abuse.  Your body is what it is.  You are what you were born as.  If you cannot accept that, then that is not a problem with the "body" which is healthy and functioning normally.  It would be much more consistent with an issue with the mind not being able to accept the reality, whether that be due to abuse or some other psychological issues at play.
> ...



Again, move along if you have nothing to add to the topic.  There are RULES of discussion in this forum (health and lifestyle).


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



You don't know?  Lol.  Are you kidding me?  Good grief!


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I'll leave you to drape this thread in your delusional beauty.


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

Briefly scanned the OP and first page. Personally, I don't understand how someone this mental could adopt children because from my perspective, Dhara wants company in her misery and therefore is using this kid in her own agendas, whatever they may be. If Jenner is thinking second thoughts at 60 years old, how is this 17 year old going to feel when he is 25 and dickless because his adoptive mother PUSHED him to do what HE thinks is in his best interests in his still uncooked mind when in essence, it is HER that wants validation for her own mental issues and is shoving him in that direction instead of sending him to a shrink to explore more what he THINKS he wants...and then insisting he at least wait until 25 years old or something before acting on this...whatever it is. Nope. She won't do that because she WANTS to not be alone in her mental instability and this kid is her company.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

What the hell is wrong with some of these posters?  Why participate in a topic if you don't know what it's about, you know nothing about it . . . etc.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



You and your opinions, of course.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Again, you are not addressing the thread topic.  Either address the topic or stop addressing my posts because, honestly, I'm not interested in discussing anything else with you.


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> What the hell is wrong with some of these posters?  Why participate in a topic if you don't know what it's about, you know nothing about it . . . etc.



Well, you are a medical assistant.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...



Again, you are not discussing the topic of the thread, but personally attacking.  Am I going to have to report you or are you going to cut the crap out and behave like an adult?


----------



## Lilah (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Lilah said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Then shut up.  
The stage is all  yours.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


Topic?  Okay, let me try.  I will spell it backwards.  Cipot.  Good enough?


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > What the hell is wrong with some of these posters?  Why participate in a topic if you don't know what it's about, you know nothing about it . . . etc.
> ...



True, and I think I know what your problem is (it's pretty transparent), but that is another topic.  Soooooo . . . do you have something to add to this particular discussion?  You know, the thread title or the topic of this thread?


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

Let's say my kid is a girl and plays with dolls alot then says she is ready to be a mommy. Kid is 13. Or 14. Even 15. Do I tell her sure..be a mommy! I will help you! You can be anything you want!

Parents don't do that shit. They have to PARENT.


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Okay, how about this solution to this trans gender heat.  It is ancient, but has always worked for centuries.  Simply castration.  Why is this not acceptable in the 21st century?  The confused child could actually ask for it himself, I guess, to be fair. How would that reduce his quality of life at this point any further?


----------



## anotherlife (May 13, 2016)

Gracie said:


> Let's say my kid is a girl and plays with dolls alot then says she is ready to be a mommy. Kid is 13. Or 14. Even 15. Do I tell her sure..be a mommy! I will help you! You can be anything you want!
> 
> Parents don't do that shit. They have to PARENT.


No, they don't have to parent.  That is illegal now, because parent need to make money for health service providers.  A lesser emphasized aspect of this thread, but the most truthful one.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Gracie said:
> 
> 
> > Let's say my kid is a girl and plays with dolls alot then says she is ready to be a mommy. Kid is 13. Or 14. Even 15. Do I tell her sure..be a mommy! I will help you! You can be anything you want!
> ...



IMO, it is incredibly unethical of the surgeons who perform this kind of surgery on a perfectly healthy body.  You know there is a TON of money involved too.


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Gracie said:
> 
> 
> > Let's say my kid is a girl and plays with dolls alot then says she is ready to be a mommy. Kid is 13. Or 14. Even 15. Do I tell her sure..be a mommy! I will help you! You can be anything you want!
> ...


Are you insane? Parents are supposed to PARENT. That is their job! Thinking the kid you adopted or even gave birth to knows best before he even has a chance to learn at LIFE is not parenting.
Meh, never mind.

Fucking nut cases galore here.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Gracie said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Gracie said:
> ...



I could be wrong, but I think he was being sarcastic, saying that doctors talk parents into these "procedures" making them believe it is best for the child.  You never really know around here though.  Lol.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Okay, how about this solution to this trans gender heat.  It is ancient, but has always worked for centuries.  Simply castration.  Why is this not acceptable in the 21st century?  The confused child could actually ask for it himself, I guess, to be fair. How would that reduce his quality of life at this point any further?



I don't think that's a good solution either.  Messing with perfectly healthy and normally functioning organs is never a good idea, IMO.  Obviously, there is nothing wrong with their bodies.


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

Say you have a kid that is 11 years old. Or....16 years old. Either way...under age. Still not fully cooked yet (per judge judy) and no life lessons or street smarts or just not living life enough yet about what life holds or the future or anything actually. Just a kid, wanting something. Or THINKING he wants something. Hell, I wanted to be in the army when I was 21. Then I wanted to be a star in hollywood. When I was little, I wanted to be a vet. Kids WANT all the time and AT that time, they are serious in that wanting. But then they grow up a little more and those wants change to other wants.

So anyway...yer kid decides tatts are TOTALLY cool and all the other kids are doing it and he or she KNOWS from his or her guts that this IS THE WANT THEY WANT. What is it they want? A HUGE tattoo of their favorite celeb. On their face. Not scalp. Not back. Not leg. Not butt. Not chest. Not stomach. IT MUST be on their FACE!!!

Do you let them?

OH HAYELL NO!

Encouraging a kid to do hormones to become another sex BEFORE they are even cooked yet IS child abuse and I am telling you right now..FACT....if I knew where dhara was located for real, I would be calling CPS on her faster than you can say jack shit..along with a link to every fucking thread here at usmb for them to read. Yes you bet I would. In a fucking HEARTBEAT.

No, I won't go hunting for her. But if she ever slips up HERE, in a thread or post, and it leads to her location? I will be on that like stink on shit.


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

I'm so fucking pissed right now...I'm gobsmacked.


----------



## strollingbones (May 13, 2016)

am i the only one not impressed by the hormone specialists.....they are the ones experimenting with kids


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Okay, how about this solution to this trans gender heat.  It is ancient, but has always worked for centuries.  Simply castration.  Why is this not acceptable in the 21st century?  The confused child could actually ask for it himself, I guess, to be fair. How would that reduce his quality of life at this point any further?


FUCKING NUTBAR!!!!!

Fair? FAIR? To let the CHILD decide on whether to be castrated?

omg. Now I have seen everything.


----------



## ChrisL (May 13, 2016)

Yeah, that's pretty nutty.  Still don't know if the poster, anotherlife, is just using sarcasm or being serious though.  That is why emoticons are helpful.


----------



## strollingbones (May 13, 2016)

okay from the pronouns dhara is using....child should be female to male....and the child has been living as a male for several years ....so he is the proper pronoun


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Gracie said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > Gracie said:
> ...


How about you stay out of my family's business, including my parenting?


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

strollingbones said:


> okay from the pronouns dhara is using....child should be female to male....and the child has been living as a male for several years ....so he is the proper pronoun


Thank you.  It's been awhile since I've had cause to thank you for anything.


----------



## strollingbones (May 13, 2016)

dont post personal info then tell people to stay outta of it....once you put it out there....the debate will always begin..and you know that...


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

strollingbones said:


> dont post personal info then tell people to stay outta of it....once you put it out there....the debate will always begin..and you know that...


Hey, even if I post about my family attacks on a member family or parenting is against the TOS.  It's pretty clear.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Lilah said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lilah said:
> ...


I appreciate that about you.  You're one of the few concerned about the transgender person.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Gracie said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Gracie said:
> ...


You're threatening me on top of attacking me as a parent?  Wow.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Gracie said:


> Yeah, you better fucking hide. No avie, nobody can see your profile. Good girl. Keep looking over your shoulder, bitch.


Reported for threat.


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

lol. I DON'T FUCKING CARE.

Put it this way...if I get banned (which is fine)...that will give me a shitload of time to do other things, now won't it?


----------



## Gracie (May 13, 2016)

Now, while you wait for staff to go through your thousands of reports....DO tell us more about your parenting but will report anyone that disagrees with it.
Don't forget details, dear. DETAILS. 

Tell us all more.


----------



## Carla_Danger (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > dont post personal info then tell people to stay outta of it....once you put it out there....the debate will always begin..and you know that...
> ...




You know how people are around here. And you knew Tilly and Lucy were bigots, because I told you so. I don't know why you decided to give them ammunition, especially with such personal details.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

How about you take a walk and cool down.  Walk away from the computer.    Stop threatening people, Gracie.


----------



## Dhara (May 13, 2016)

Carla_Danger said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > strollingbones said:
> ...


Tilly and Lucy aren't threatening me.  Gracie is.


----------



## Carla_Danger (May 13, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Carla_Danger said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...




I was just thinking about the thread, possibly this one, that I read earlier today.


----------

