# Should the Sons of Confederates Veterans get their license plates?



## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

As you may have heard, a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) wants to take advantage of a Texas program that allows private citizens to put their own message in their license plates. SCV's message would include a symbol of the Confederate flag.

There is debate as to whether this is public speech or private speech, or both.
I think this is a tricky case. What do you people think the Constitution calls for in this case? How do you think the judges will vote? This should be decided in the next couple of months.


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## RandallFlagg (May 4, 2015)

A Perez said:


> As you may have heard, a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) wants to take advantage of a Texas program that allows private citizens to put their own message in their license plates. SCV's message would include a symbol of the Confederate flag.
> 
> There is debate as to whether this is public speech or private speech, or both.
> I think this is a tricky case. What do you people think the Constitution calls for in this case? How do you think the judges will vote? This should be decided in the next couple of months.




Why shouldn't they? I don't understand. Daughters of the American Revolution have their own plates. Hell, I've seen plates that say "Fox E 1". Sons of the Confederate Veterans can't be any dumber than that....right?

Again - slavery was NOT the reason for the Civil War. It was a part (Read Abraham Lincoln) but it was only a part. As Lincoln put it - "If I could have saved the Republic and not have rid the country of slavery, I would have".

The Republic and stopping the South from Seceding was the primary concern of Lincoln.

A LETTER FROM PRESIDENT LINCOLN. - Reply to Horace Greeley. Slavery and the Union The Restoration of the Union the Paramount Object. - NYTimes.com


Lincoln makes himself abundantly clear in his letter to Horace Greely. So what is the big deal about the license plates?


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## Statistikhengst (May 4, 2015)




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## Moonglow (May 4, 2015)

I would not get one if it twas free....Just like I didn't join the Dean's list frat club...


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## Statistikhengst (May 4, 2015)

Moonglow said:


> I would not get one if it twas free....Just like I didn't join the Dean's list frat club...




I think I know why.


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## pismoe (May 4, 2015)

of course they should get the Confederate plates if they like !!


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## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

RandallFlagg said:


> A Perez said:
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> > As you may have heard, a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) wants to take advantage of a Texas program that allows private citizens to put their own message in their license plates. SCV's message would include a symbol of the Confederate flag.
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The issue iswhether a State that doesn't want a certain plate can say no. Maybe the state that approved the Daughters license plate just didnt have a problem with it. Texas Sees things different.


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## Statistikhengst (May 4, 2015)




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## Moonglow (May 4, 2015)

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Like a blind bovine...


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## pismoe (May 4, 2015)

I suppose that the state can deny , probably will but as funders of the agency making the plates they should be able to get them APerez .   Probably will deny due to 'p.c.' .


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## Statistikhengst (May 4, 2015)

Moonglow said:


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## Moonglow (May 4, 2015)

We're all selling our souls with Jeri thread.......


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## Statistikhengst (May 4, 2015)

Moonglow said:


> We're all selling our souls with Jeri thread.......




Oy, Gewalt.


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## Missourian (May 4, 2015)

I'd say this a free speech issue.

If some folks chose to read more into it than is there,  that's their problem.

No one has a right not to be offended.


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## PratchettFan (May 4, 2015)

A Perez said:


> As you may have heard, a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) wants to take advantage of a Texas program that allows private citizens to put their own message in their license plates. SCV's message would include a symbol of the Confederate flag.
> 
> There is debate as to whether this is public speech or private speech, or both.
> I think this is a tricky case. What do you people think the Constitution calls for in this case? How do you think the judges will vote? This should be decided in the next couple of months.



If the state is offering personally designed plates, then it should not discriminate based upon symbols.  I think they have some discretion when it comes to outright obscenities.  "FUCK U" for example.  But these folks have as much right to their symbols as anyone else.


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## Pogo (May 4, 2015)

A Perez said:


> As you may have heard, a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) wants to take advantage of a Texas program that allows private citizens to put their own message in their license plates. SCV's message would include a symbol of the Confederate flag.
> 
> There is debate as to whether this is public speech or private speech, or both.
> I think this is a tricky case. What do you people think the Constitution calls for in this case? How do you think the judges will vote? This should be decided in the next couple of months.



"Judges"?  What judges?

This isn't a Constitutional issue.  License plates are issued by the several states.  What they permit on that plate is up to them.  COTUS sez gummint can't restrict free speech, but that's not what a license plate is.


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## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

pismoe said:


> of course they should get the Confederate plates if they like !!


How about a nazi symbol plate?


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## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

> COTUS sez gummint can't restrict free speech, but that's not what a license plate is.


SCOTUS didnt say that.


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## PratchettFan (May 4, 2015)

A Perez said:


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Yes.


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## Pogo (May 4, 2015)

A Perez said:


> > "Judges"? What judges?
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> > This isn't a Constitutional issue. License plates are issued by the several states. What they permit on that plate is up to them. COTUS sez gummint can't restrict free speech, but that's not what a license plate is.
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*COTUS*, not SCOTUS.   "Constitution Of The United States".

Who are these "judges" then?


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## hortysir (May 4, 2015)

pismoe said:


> I suppose that the state can deny , probably will but as funders of the agency making the plates they should be able to get them APerez .   Probably will deny due to 'p.c.' .


In Florida there was a battle for "Choose Life" license plates.
They're on the road, so.....


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## JWBooth (May 4, 2015)

This was hashed out two weeks ago, with all the usual suspects taking the same sides they always take and making the same arguments they always make when anything Confederate is discussed.
Nobody gets convinced, much name calling ensues, thread eventually fades....




How 'bout them Astros?


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## natstew (May 4, 2015)

The "Stars And Bars" flag was not the Flag of The Confederate States Of America, it was a battle flag, and not the only one.

I fly it proudly, same as the battle flag of the 16th Maine Infantry Regiment.


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## Synthaholic (May 4, 2015)

_*Should the Sons of Confederates Veterans get their license plates? *_


They should be _making _license plates.


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## JWBooth (May 4, 2015)

natstew said:


> The "Stars And Bars" flag was not the Flag of The Confederate States Of America, it was a battle flag, and not the only one.
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> I fly it proudly, same as the battle flag of the 16th Maine Infantry Regiment.







1st National or "Stars and Bars"





Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia


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## JWBooth (May 4, 2015)

Synthaholic said:


> _*Should the Sons of Confederates Veterans get their license plates? *_
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> They should be _making _license plates.



And you should be skewered in the manner of Vlad Dracul.


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## Synthaholic (May 4, 2015)

JWBooth said:


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^^^ Traitor flags.


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## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

pismoe said:


> I suppose that the state can deny , probably will but as funders of the agency making the plates they should be able to get them APerez .   Probably will deny due to 'p.c.' .


Im undecided


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## Pogo (May 4, 2015)

Again, a car license plate is the property of the state, not the car owner.  No kind of regulation of what may or may not be on the plate amounts to "speech", nor is it the only avenue for said owner to display his/her message.  They could mount whatever symbol or message they like on the front license plate; they could festoon bumper stickers.

Now prohibiting bumper stickers would run into COTUS conflicts but the plate belongs to the state, so the state gets to make the rules.


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## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

hortysir said:


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But if SCOTUS rules in favor of Texas, Florida can go ahead and ban the Choose Life plates.


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## Pogo (May 4, 2015)

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A Perez said:


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Florida can do that already.  As can any state.
What makes you think SCOTUS would trifle with this sort of triviality?


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## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

> Now prohibiting bumper stickers would run into COTUS conflicts but the plate belongs to the state, so the state gets to make the rules


.
The State of Texas hasn't set any rules. What are the rules?


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## bodecea (May 4, 2015)

Sure.  I want to know who they are.


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## A Perez (May 4, 2015)

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Florida currently cannot do so without being taken to court though.


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## Pogo (May 4, 2015)

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What gives you that idea?


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## Statistikhengst (May 5, 2015)

Synthaholic said:


> _*Should the Sons of Confederates Veterans get their license plates? *_
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> They should be _making _license plates.




Yes.


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## A Perez (May 5, 2015)

Pogo said:


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Because the issue hasn't been settled in the SCOTUS. So if SCOTUS sides with Texas, Florida won't have to worry about a thing. They wont have to accept anything they consider too offensive.


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## Pogo (May 5, 2015)

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Again I ask -- why would SCOTUS be trifling with crap like this?
It ain't rocket surgery -- the license plate belongs to the *state*, not the car owner.  What happens if you sell your car?  You have to return the plate to the state.  Therefore _they _make the rules of what it looks like.  It isn't a forum for public discourse.  Any offer they might float to make some extra money or fundraise (I have one) is just that -- an offer.  It isn't a medium for "speech".  All of which means the state gets to dictate what the offer is, and what it isn't.

If that were not the case, you could order a plate that says "FUCK YOU".  But you can't.


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## RandallFlagg (May 5, 2015)

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So I guess it's freedom of speech - as long as WE agree with you?


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## RandallFlagg (May 5, 2015)

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That's bullshit and you know it. What will the "State" do when a gay guy wants to put "I'm queer" on a plate? Sound familiar? It's the damned cake thing all over again. If you are going to force bakers to cater to gays then so must the state.

If you are not going to allow free speech on license plates - then stop selling them to the public.


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## Pogo (May 5, 2015)

RandallFlagg said:


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License plates are owned by the state.  That's a _fact_.  Therefore the state makes the rules.  It's to regulate car registration -- not to make personal statements.  And again, there's nothing stopping that car owner from festooning his bumper, his fenders, his front license plate holder, with whatever the fuck he wants.  That's his land so he makes the rules there.


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## RandallFlagg (May 5, 2015)

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Oh, I see. so the cake that the baker makes doesn't belong to him....Okay, I get it So, since only the STATE is allowed to make rules for THEIR products - I get it now. State=good Baker=Bad. Gotcha.

One thing you can always count on from those on the left - the double standard will ALWAYS reign supreme.  STATE is good!!! Private enterprise is BAD!!!


Now explain to me the difference between the (obviously) vulgar FUCK U and a license plate that says "Sons of the Confederacy Veterans" 

Please explain the difference.....


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## Pogo (May 5, 2015)

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Where the fuck are we getting "bakers"?  I didn't bring up bakers or cakes, nor did I imply anything about private enterprise versus The State.  I made no reference to The State at all.

What I said was "*state*" --- lower case S.  As in "the state of Texas".  Dumbass.  And it's a fact, the state (Texas in this case) makes the license plate and requires it on the car.  It's not a speech forum; it's a regulation device.

Refute that.


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## RandallFlagg (May 5, 2015)

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Easy. If the state requires a license plate - then sells vanity plates that offer nearly everything under the sun - where is the "vulgarity" in a plate that says "Son of a Confederacy Veteran"? Because it offends some liberal clown? Tough shit. 

The state of Texas does NOT require vanity plates. It requires registration plates and nothing more. It's the same crap as when a state declares you can not put "respect life" on a license plate. It's censorship plain and simple.

It's no different from the hell raised over the baker who refuses to put gay crap on a wedding cake. He CAN'T get away with it - but you claim the state can. Again, in your warped little head - the state dictates and the rest of us merely comply.


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## Pogo (May 5, 2015)

RandallFlagg said:


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I didn't say anything about "vulgarity" either.  I simply (perhaps too simply) said it's up to the state to decide what it will accept on its own plates.



RandallFlagg said:


> The state of Texas does NOT require vanity plates. It requires registration plates and nothing more. It's the same crap as when a state declares you can not put "respect life" on a license plate. It's censorship plain and simple.



Didn't say that either.  Nobody's required to get a vanity plate.  But if you do, it's an offer by the state, for a fee.  And no, that's not censorship -- *it's not stifling anybody's voice*.   

Where's the "censorship" here?




​I don't know where you're getting this "can't put respect life on a license plate" but...







RandallFlagg said:


> It's no different from the hell raised over the baker who refuses to put gay crap on a wedding cake. He CAN'T get away with it - but you claim the state can. Again, in your warped little head - the state dictates and the rest of us merely comply.



I'm not familiar with that but a baker would be a private enterprise selling wares.  No one is required to buy a cake to register their car.


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## RandallFlagg (May 5, 2015)

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I'll ask you one more time. Where is the justification for the state of texas to tell anyone that a plate that says :Son of a Confederacy Veteran - is not appropriate?

Your answer is bullshit. "Because they make the rules". That's no answer clown. The ONLY justification for NOT allowing a certain plate is if it contains a vulgarity. Where is the vulgarity?


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## Pogo (May 5, 2015)

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I'm not here to feed your strawman.  "Vulgarity" is your speculation -- not mine.


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## A Perez (May 5, 2015)

> I'm not familiar with that but our answer is bullshit. "Because they make the rules". That's no answer clown. The ONLY justification for NOT allowing a certain plate is if it contains a vulgarity. Where is the vulgarity?


Suppose a group wanted the message "kill all cops" or "(N word) must be decapitated)" in a license plate. Those statements are not vulgar. Do you mean the state should be forced to accept those statements?


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## Synthaholic (May 5, 2015)

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All states have a similar regulation:

_(2) IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED that no license plate be manufactured and issued which contains objectionable language or symbols which are considered by the Department of Revenue to be offensive to the peace and dignity of the State of Alabama._​


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## Synthaholic (May 5, 2015)

RandallFlagg said:


> Easy. If the state requires a license plate - then sells vanity plates that offer nearly everything under the sun - where is the "vulgarity" in a plate that says "Son of a Confederacy Veteran"? Because it offends some liberal clown? Tough shit.




Also in every state:


_   (d) The committee shall not consider for approval applications from the following types of organizations:

  (1) Out-of-state colleges and universities.
  (2) Private businesses, business organizations, or commercial entities of any type.
  (3) Public and private schools K-12, junior colleges, and technical schools, exclusive of
the Helping Schools Tag as established in Sections 32-6-300 and 32-6-301.
  (4) Groups within high schools, junior colleges, universities, and technical schools, such as band boosters, athletic boosters, and the like.
  (5) Unions.
*(6) Political organizations.
  (7) Religious organizations.
  (8)Groups that promote racial or social disharmony.*
  (9) Public officials.
_​


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## Missourian (May 5, 2015)

Synthaholic said:


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Sons of Confederate Veterans fits none of those categories.

Sons of Confederate Veterans


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## Synthaholic (May 5, 2015)

Missourian said:


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I disagree.  They are political in their mission, and they certainly promote social disharmony.

Now, let me add, these same restrictions will be used against any homosexual activist groups, also, for the same reasons.


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## Missourian (May 6, 2015)

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They are more or less a historical society.

Straight from their website..."The SCV is the direct heir of the United Confederate Veterans, and the oldest hereditary organization for male descendants of Confederate soldiers. Organized at Richmond, Virginia in 1896, the SCV continues to serve as a historical, patriotic, and *non-political organization* dedicated to ensuring that a true history of the 1861-1865 period is preserved."

P.S.-


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## Agit8r (May 6, 2015)

A Perez said:


> As you may have heard, a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) wants to take advantage of a Texas program that allows private citizens to put their own message in their license plates. SCV's message would include a symbol of the Confederate flag.
> 
> There is debate as to whether this is public speech or private speech, or both.
> I think this is a tricky case. What do you people think the Constitution calls for in this case? How do you think the judges will vote? This should be decided in the next couple of months.



It is no different than having license plates for ISIS.  Both represent enmity toward the American people, and modern humanity.  There should not be government sanction for such crap.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (May 6, 2015)

"Should the Sons of Confederates Veterans get their license plates?"

Of course they should.

First Amendment jurisprudence clearly protects the right of citizens to exhibit their ignorance and hate. The state has no grounds whatsoever to refuse the request, that the message is hateful and offensive is not justification to seek to preempt the message.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (May 6, 2015)

Agit8r said:


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Disagree.

Such a prohibition would not be content neutral, nor an incidental restriction on speech, and consequently un-Constitutional.


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## JQPublic1 (May 6, 2015)

A Perez said:


> As you may have heard, a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) wants to take advantage of a Texas program that allows private citizens to put their own message in their license plates. SCV's message would include a symbol of the Confederate flag.
> 
> There is debate as to whether this is public speech or private speech, or both.
> I think this is a tricky case. What do you people think the Constitution calls for in this case? How do you think the judges will vote? This should be decided in the next couple of months.



Does that include Blacks with confederate great grandfathers or were the descendants of Blacks who fought in the Confederacy?


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## JQPublic1 (May 6, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Should the Sons of Confederates Veterans get their license plates?"
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> Of course they should.
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> First Amendment jurisprudence clearly protects the right of citizens to exhibit their ignorance and hate. The state has no grounds whatsoever to refuse the request, that the message is hateful and offensive is not justification to seek to preempt the message.


Good! Then there should be no objection to someone wanting to put porn on a license plate...The confed plates are just as offensive!


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## Missourian (May 6, 2015)




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## Missourian (May 6, 2015)

JQPublic1 said:


> Does that include Blacks with confederate great grandfathers or were the descendants of Blacks who fought in the Confederacy?



Funny you should mention that...

In 1991, after the NAACP began a campaign against the Confederate flag being celebrated on public buildings, Winbush disagreed and decided to join the Sons of Confederate Veterans. He is a member of the SCV's Jacob Summerlin Camp #1516 in Kissimmee, Florida.[5] As an adult he had learned more about his grandfather and his military service, and Winbush came to honor his support for the Confederacy.

With his retirement from teaching, Winbush felt ready to speak out on public issues. For instance, unlike many other African Americans, he considers the Confederate flag part of Southern heritage and appropriate for public display. He has said that the South seceded from the Union because of states' rights, not slavery. "He denies that President Lincoln freed the slaves, explaining that the Emancipation Proclamation affected only the Confederate states, which were no longer under his authority."[1]

Nelson W. Winbush - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



 

Image courtesy of Wikipedia​


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## there4eyeM (May 6, 2015)

"Heil Hitler", "Allah Akbar", "White Power" and a lot of other idiotic declarations are only a stamping plate away.

Of course, freedom of expression allows all this. Freedom of intelligence would eschew it.


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## Agit8r (May 6, 2015)

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What? Are these confederate douche-bags fabricating the plates themselves? Or is the state producing them?


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## A Perez (May 6, 2015)

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I don't understand. Are you referring to the people who manufacture the plates? The state pays for manufacturing it, but the Sons of the Confederates pay for the message they want in it. What does it matter who pays the metal workers who turn metal into a license plate?


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## Agit8r (May 6, 2015)

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So, if ISIS paid for an ISIS message on license plates, that would be acceptable?


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## A Perez (May 6, 2015)

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 No, because there is a crime called "Providing material support to terrorists", and providing services to terrorists is listed as material support. 18 U.S. Code 2339A - Providing material support to terrorists US Law LII Legal Information Institute
Is SCV a terrorist organization?


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## Agit8r (May 6, 2015)

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Certainly confederate images are associated with a particular terrorist group (the first group to be ascribed the term by the United States, in fact)


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## A Perez (May 6, 2015)

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Why hasn't he FBI shut down their website or jailed it's members or closed its PO box?


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## Agit8r (May 6, 2015)

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Probably would be harder to keep track of them


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## JQPublic1 (May 6, 2015)

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If I remember correctly, LPs are made in prisons. That's taxpayer money used to house and feed them unless the prison is contracted by private parties..

But even then the government, aka taxpayer, is paying the tab. It's the use of prison labor and whether the work they do is owned by the taxpayer  that makes this a sensitive issue.

I'm going to predict that if the GOP wins the Whie House in 2016, the plates will adorn the vehices of southern White males all over the south. The new  SOCV plates in the rear and the standard rebel battle flag plate in the front! White southern pride at it's finest: the historical atrocities  and  Black sensitivity be damned!


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## A Perez (May 6, 2015)

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Here is their commander in chief, Charles Barrow. I'm going to ask you whether he is a terrorist or not.


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## A Perez (May 6, 2015)

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SCV paid 8000 dollars for the plate. Comments?


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## Agit8r (May 6, 2015)

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Head of a terrorist organization = terrorist. Yes.


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## A Perez (May 6, 2015)

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When are they gonna arrest him?


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## JQPublic1 (May 6, 2015)

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That is improbable.  As a racist, he is part of an intricate secret infrastructure that binds all White conservative makes together. This infrastructure has lines of communication and networking that were largely put in place by J Edgar Hoover.
Hoover was a Shriner...a 33rd degree mason; and, many policemen, judges and other authorities  are affiliated with the masons. That includes White supremacy groups like the KKK. So, this guy is safe!


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## JQPublic1 (May 6, 2015)

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What do you mean they paid 8000 dollars for the plate? That doesn't make sense. Try again! Do you mean they paid 8000 dollars for rights to make the plate? Clarify please.


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## Agit8r (May 6, 2015)

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It sounds like they paid the state $8000 to specially make racist license plates for them.


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## JQPublic1 (May 6, 2015)

there4eyeM said:


> "Heil Hitler", "Allah Akbar", "White Power" and a lot of other idiotic declarations are only a stamping plate away.
> 
> Of course, freedom of expression allows all this. Freedom of intelligence would eschew it.



Well, It all falls under the category of "states rights" I suppose. Since the Confederal Battle flag LPs are already ubiquitous throughout the land the SCV plates aren't any more subversive than that.The differnce being one plateis made by private enterprise and labor  while the other is to be made and sanctioned by state government operatives. If taxpayers have any connection at all to the production of said plates, the interests of those opposed have been suborned.


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## Synthaholic (May 6, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> First Amendment jurisprudence clearly protects the right of citizens to exhibit their ignorance and hate.


On their own, yes.  They are not entitled to have the state as a co-conspirator in that ignorance.


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## whitehall (May 14, 2015)

The Confederacy only existed for about four years. The flag that flew from the stern of slave ships for 200 years was the Union Jack, the French flag, the Spanish flag and the Stars and Stripes. Which flag does the bigot left want to burn first? When I was in the Marines during the Vietnam War the radical left made sure that their right to free speech included shitting on the Stars and Stripes and waving the flag of our enemy. Have the rules changed in the last forty years?


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## JakeStarkey (May 14, 2015)

No free speech issue at all here.

If the state says no, then it is so.


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## JWBooth (May 15, 2015)

whitehall said:


> The Confederacy only existed for about four years. The flag that flew from the stern of slave ships for 200 years was the Union Jack, the French flag, the Spanish flag and the Stars and Stripes. Which flag does the bigot left want to burn first? When I was in the Marines during the Vietnam War the radical left made sure that their right to free speech included shitting on the Stars and Stripes and waving the flag of our enemy. Have the rules changed in the last forty years?


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## my2¢ (Jul 3, 2015)

I don't have feeling one way or other but since Texas revoked license plate "370H55V" which perfectly reflected the character of Texans, I suppose banning the flag isn't that much of a deal.


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## pismoe (Jul 3, 2015)

thank you JWBooth , some of the best fighters , seals , special ops , rangers come from the Land of Dixie fighting gun culture !!


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## Pogo (Jul 3, 2015)

pismoe said:


> thank you JWBooth , some of the best fighters , seals , special ops , rangers come from the Land of Dixie fighting gun culture !!



Thank you.  I'm one of 'em, been doing that since I came to this board.  Good to be appreciated.  

That photo is another fine example of the CF as a cultural symbol.  Obviously the tank didn't go to Quang Tri to fight for the Confederacy; the flag serves the same function as if a regiment from Iowa put an image of a corn husk on it.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 3, 2015)

pismoe said:


> thank you JWBooth , some of the best fighters , seals , special ops , rangers come from the Land of Dixie fighting gun culture !!


Sigh.  We had a guy who wanted to fly it from his vehicle.  I told him three choices: burn it, send it home, or disobey my order.  He sent it home.  Wise fellow.


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## pismoe (Jul 3, 2015)

like I said , Thank you JW Booth !!


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## mgh80 (Jul 6, 2015)

Honestly who cares? If you have the time and effort to care about this...you have too much of it. Go get a life.


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