# How would you change K-12 Schools in America?



## Wry Catcher (Sep 13, 2010)

I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 13, 2010)

Core Curriculum:

English
English Composition
Reading is Fundamental
US and World History
Play Time/Sports Phys Ed/Self Defense and/or Meditation
Foreign Language

Pick 2:
Math for Living
Math for Business
Math for Geeks

Pick 2
Scientific Theory
The Science of Living
Bio
Chem
Physics
Astronomy
Anthropology
Archaeology
Global Warming (LOL. Only fooling)

Pick 2:
Craftsmanship
Entrepreneurship
Innovation
Technology
Music
Art


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## Wry Catcher (Sep 13, 2010)

I think, back to basics.  By the beginning of the 6th grade kids need to be able to read and comprehend, Write, compute, speak 'publicly' with confidence, and behave within socially approprite norms.
I do not believe all kids are born with the same skills or interests, yet we teach them as if they were.  The assembly line was a good idea for producing the same product consistently; it is not a good idea for producing productive adults.
What do you think?


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 13, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I think, back to basics.  By the beginning of the 6th grade kids need to be able to read and comprehend, Write, compute, speak 'publicly' with confidence, and behave within socially approprite norms.
> I do not believe all kids are born with the same skills or interests, yet we teach them as if they were.  The assembly line was a good idea for producing the same product consistently; it is not a good idea for producing productive adults.
> What do you think?



Absolutely!

That's why the curriculum be have an optional component to is as the people learn the basics or reading, comprehension and writing.

There's just no place for craftsmen or tradesmen in our schools and that's wrong.


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## Wry Catcher (Sep 13, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I think, back to basics.  By the beginning of the 6th grade kids need to be able to read and comprehend, Write, compute, speak 'publicly' with confidence, and behave within socially approprite norms.
> ...



I agree.  Not all kids want or have the interest or ability for a university education.  Once they develop the basics (Reading & reading comprehension, computation, writing & keybording, and social skills) they need to have as vast an exposure as possible to the world around them.  That includes hands on experience in making things, using the latest technological tools; for many kids - and adults - learn by doing.  Passive learning passes them by.


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## Wicked Jester (Sep 13, 2010)

Stop shoving politics down the students throats.
Teach them the basics. The basics needed to get succesfully by in life.
Get rid of the revisionist "HISTORY" books....Teach them the truth.
Put those beautiful american flags back in the classroom.
If a kid wants to pray, let 'em pray.....If not, fine.
Fire all the teachers who's students on average are failing.
Do away with unionized teachers.


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## syrenn (Sep 13, 2010)

The best thing you could do for K-12 schools is to get rid of the UNIONS.


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## Big Black Dog (Sep 13, 2010)

I think there should be a heavy load of math, science, history, computer skills, reading, writing, physical education and social interaction within the students and student body.  What I mean by that is kids need to be taught what is appropriate behavior within the community.  All the rest of it - meaning the liberal minded feel good courses, can be discarded.  Also to graduate from high school a student should be able to speak one other language other than English be it French, German, Spanish, or whatever.  I also believe that all students should be required to wear an appropriate school uniform, no facial hair, and maintain a decent haircut.


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## blu (Sep 13, 2010)

Wicked Jester said:


> Fire all the teachers who's students on average are failing.
> Do away with unionized teachers.


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## blu (Sep 13, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Core Curriculum:
> 
> English
> English Composition
> ...



if it was 'pick 4' in the science section I would like it. what is  "the science of living" though?


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## blu (Sep 13, 2010)

make all schools private with government paying tuition for kids whose parents cant afford. 
no union/protected teachers, make the teachers know they will be fired if they do their jobs poorly. 
teach real history, not the white-washed version taught now. 
make calculus mandatory for seniors. 
require a full year for each of biology, chemistry, and physics
make 2 years of computer courses required
make some sort of trade course required for at least a full year
require at least 1/2 a year of speech classes / public speaking
1/2 a year of music including learning to read music, along with 1/2 of art

edit:
students should also be required to take at least 2 full years of a non-english language

edit #2:
I realize I just made my list for high school only, but the OP did mention k-8...


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## random3434 (Sep 13, 2010)

More vocational options for high school students. Not everyone plans to go to college, but if we can get these kids interested in a career choice in high school, and the training to start  in whatever it is they choose, the better for them and society.

The guy who is installing my new window in my car today had to be trained for that, just as the folks who fix your car, plumbing, computers, even cut your hair or work in a preschool and watch your kids.


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## Wicked Jester (Sep 13, 2010)

blu said:


> make all schools private with government paying tuition for kids whose parents cant afford.
> no union/protected teachers, make the teachers know they will be fired if they do their jobs poorly.
> teach real history, not the white-washed version taught now.
> make calculus mandatory for seniors.
> ...


We send our kids to private school, K-12. It's expensive as hell, but more than worth it. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. They teach them the basics. 97% graduate. 91% end up going on to college......I seriously doubt that there is even one public school in this country who could ever show success on that level.


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## kwc57 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ask parents to give a shit.  That alone would revolutionize education in America.  My 17 year old senior is bright and intelligent and we thank God for that.  But he knew from kindergarten on what our expectations of him as a student were.  Each of his teachers each year got an email from me stating that his education was a high priority in our home and we were there to support the teacher in any way needed.  We also told them not to hesitate to contact us if there was an issue and it would be dealt with.  Each and every teacher he has had has complimented us on what a good kid and student he is and thanks us for our support.  Teachers are not babysitters.


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## GHook93 (Sep 13, 2010)

I would completely remove it from the County level and move it to the State Level. Then I would set up various levels of school based on intelligence levels and behavioral problems.

Here is how it works: School starts at age 4 going 5 days a week. Parents may be CRIMINALLY liable for not making their kids go to school.

From age 4 -8 they are in the observation state. They start to get taught basic academic and social skills. They are judge on education factors as well as behavioral factors (not by the teacher, but from obervational people). As the years go on they start to get segregated by behavioral problems as well as IQ.

(1) By Age 9: The Children get situation into 1 of 5 school types. Each type being strategically located throughout the state, so try to provide access to all of them. These levels are based on IQ as well as behavior.

Level 1: Genius Level.
Geniuses needs to be identified and challenged early on. We need to get them into schools where they can be groomed to be the next Eisensteins!

Level 2: Higher IQ - Low Behavior Problems
Big problem with schools today is the smart kids get intimidated by kids with behavior problems. Segregate them out based not on race, religion or color, or where they are lucky enough to live, but by IQ and Behavior. Have the class schedule geared towards the fact that they have higher IQ.

Level 3: Lower IQ - Low Behavior Problems
No all behavioral problems are due to kids not being as smart. Allow these kids to be free of problem children, while still learning. Have the coarse geared towards jobs they might thrive in and make a decent living, such as a trade. Recognize the fact that not all kids are meant for college, but still need to make a decent living. 

Level 4: Moderate Behavior Problems
Have a mixed criteria, but have a STRONG emphasis on discipline and social skills. Absolutely zero tolerance for class clowning or bullying. Uniforms required.

Level 5: High Behavior Problems
Military Style School. This is boarding school (meaning they are overnight) and its the equivalent to a military school like boot camp.  Emphasis here is to knock the bad out of these kids. 

Note:
(1) From Age 9-13 children can go up or down at the end of the school year based on behavior improvements (or behavior digression) and improvement in IQ (or decreases in IQ). 
(2) From Age 13-15 (Junior High) - They can still go up and down, but its much harder.
(3) By Highschool, they are locked in for the long run, except for boot camp. The best they can get is Moderate Behavior.
(4) After Age 8: Parent do have the option to sending their child to private school or home schooling (however, homeschooling is held to high standards and end of the year passing skill test are required).


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## Trajan (Sep 13, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



start by getting gov. completely and totally out of the process.


Let the districts have as many charter schools  as they want and issuer vouchers where applicable. The ONLY part to play for the sate of feds is; testing and accountability for funds etc. 

Break the NEA and AFT and the other teacher Unions.


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## Trajan (Sep 13, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> I would completely remove it from the County level and move it to the State Level. Then I would set up various levels of school based on intelligence levels and behavioral problems.
> 
> Here is how it works: School starts at age 4 going 5 days a week. Parents may be CRIMINALLY liable for not making their kids go to school.
> 
> ...



no thx.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 13, 2010)

blu said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Core Curriculum:
> ...



Science of Living would be like practical science for people who didn't think they'd like science, everyday science, like don't mix ammonia and bleach and even though H2O and H2O2 are similar you shouldn't handle them the same way.


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## ConHog (Sep 13, 2010)

Echo Zulu said:


> More vocational options for high school students. Not everyone plans to go to college, but if we can get these kids interested in a career choice in high school, and the training to start  in whatever it is they choose, the better for them and society.
> 
> The guy who is installing my new window in my car today had to be trained for that, just as the folks who fix your car, plumbing, computers, even cut your hair or work in a preschool and watch your kids.



I would split it into two distinct paths with appropriate curriculum. One for college bound students one for non college bound students, and I would not make it by choice, but by grades and test scores. If you think little Johnny is college bound but his grades and test scores say otherwise. Sorry he didn't cut it. Learn a trade. This would weed out some of the bottom performers who keeping the top performers from over achieving, while at the same time keep the over achievers from making the lower students try to keep up. It's a win win.

My school is probably 3 years away from trying this. It's pretty complicated since we have to have testing and standards in place by the time a child hits the 9th grade and we have to have the curriculum in place. We're a small school so some of our classes will of necessity be distance learning, actually we already do that but on a much smaller scale then we have planned.


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## GHook93 (Sep 13, 2010)

Trajan said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.
> ...


That is a HORRIBLE idea. Just like health insurance there are parents, rich and poor, that might opt their children out of education altogether! ESPECIALLY the poor parents. Children are unable to work and pay for their education, so they are reliant on their parents. There are some selfish parents that will tell their kids to fuck themselves. There are poor parents that simply can't afford school. There are middle class parents that are pay check to pay check that also can't afford it.

What about the poor credit rating parents? Do their kids get FUCKED because their parents are credit risks. 

Are we going to start student loans for kids? Look what student loans do for college students. Graduates get saddled with crippling debt. 

There are something, like it or not, that government has to offer an alternative to and education is one of them.


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## GHook93 (Sep 13, 2010)

Trajan said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > I would completely remove it from the County level and move it to the State Level. Then I would set up various levels of school based on intelligence levels and behavioral problems.
> ...



So you rather have:
(1) Rich go to school and get the best education because you happen to be born to rich parents or in the right neighborhood.
(2) Children born to asshole parents who don't care about their children, you either get to go to the shit school that cost the least or no school at all.
(3) Children born to poor parents, No education for you.
(4) Children born to parents living paycheck to paycheck, no education for you either.
(5) Chidren born to parents who declared bankruptcy or have a horrendous credit rating. You can't go to the good schools, because your denied back of your parent's born financial mistakes.

Sorry but no thx!


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## Wry Catcher (Sep 13, 2010)

Here's what I think.

Pre-school, beginning with the post diaper stage ought to be available in all districts and focus on socialization, reinforcing childrens natural curiosity and introducing (Latin?) a second language.  

Grades K-5 need to focus on Reading and reading comprehension, computing, writing and keyboarding, and a second language with an emphasis on behavior expected of adults in the community and workplace.  Report cards should be done away with as well as 'social' promotion.  Valid and reliable standards need to be developed and an understanding that young children develop at hightly different rates ought to be honored; in fact kids would be given the material best suited for their development not by grade level.

Grades 6 - 8 should begin to focus on an expanded curriculum; introducing the sciences, higher math, health education, including sex education, and continued emersion in a foreign language and culture; furthermore, extra curricular activities should be manditory in an expanded school day.  Sports, music and the arts, and clubs (science, chess, computer, etc) ought to both manditory and co-educational helping to build friendship with the opposite sex with a goal of reducing the angst many tweens and teens experience.

By the 9th grade the goal should be that all students have developed the skills (reading comp., math & computers, public speaking, reasoning and writing skills) to be able to enter college and be successful.
High school should provide as many technical classes and training as they do honors or AP classes, as pointed out above, many students are interested in getting on with life, going to work and not having to 'endure' four or six or more years of school.  Yet even those kids who choose at 14 or 15 not to go the college course will have the basic skills to pursue college if they change their mind after HS graduation.


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## Zander (Sep 13, 2010)

Easy. Make all grades the same.  Why should children be subjected to any type of measurement or comparison to other children at such a young age?  Surely we cannot have these precious children competing with each other. That only promotes segregation of the smart from the stupid. We do not want our children failing! What better way to help their self esteem than to protect them from harm completely? Equality of grades solves this problem.  

The state should re-educate anyone who disagrees with me. The state knows best. Collective wisdom is true wisdom, is it not?


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## Wry Catcher (Sep 13, 2010)

Zander said:


> Easy. Make all grades the same.  Why should children be subjected to any type of measurement or comparison to other children at such a young age?  Surely we cannot have these precious children competing with each other. That only promotes segregation of the smart from the stupid. We do not want our children failing! What better way to help their self esteem than to protect them from harm completely? Equality of grades solves this problem.
> 
> The state should re-educate anyone who disagrees with me. The state knows best. Collective wisdom is true wisdom, is it not?



Thanks for reinforcing my opinion of you.


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## Wry Catcher (Sep 13, 2010)

Here's what I think.

Pre-school, beginning with the post diaper stage ought to be available in all districts and focus on socialization, reinforcing childrens natural curiosity and introducing (Latin?) a second language. 

Grades K-5 need to focus on Reading and reading comprehension, computing, writing and keyboarding, and a second language with an emphasis on behavior expected of adults in the community and workplace. Report cards should be done away with as well as 'social' promotion. Valid and reliable standards need to be developed and an understanding that young children develop at hightly different rates ought to be honored; in fact kids would be given the material best suited for their development not by grade level.

Grades 6 - 8 should begin to focus on an expanded curriculum; introducing the sciences, higher math, health education, including sex education, and continued emersion in a foreign language and culture; furthermore, extra curricular activities should be manditory in an expanded school day. Sports, music and the arts, and clubs (science, chess, computer, etc) ought to both manditory and co-educational helping to build friendship with the opposite sex with a goal of reducing the angst many tweens and teens experience.

By the 9th grade the goal should be that all students have developed the skills (reading comp., math & computers, public speaking, reasoning and writing skills) to be able to enter college and be successful.
High school should provide as many technical classes and training as they do honors or AP classes, as pointed out above, many students are interested in getting on with life, going to work and not having to 'endure' four or six or more years of school. Yet even those kids who choose at 14 or 15 not to go the college course will have the basic skills to pursue college if they change their mind after HS graduation.


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## Baruch Menachem (Sep 13, 2010)

1) privatise the lot of them.   Not sold, hived off as individual co operatives, collectives or whatever.
2) payment for services from the government would be a base rate with a requirement for base line competency on a per student basis
3) independently proctored tests twice a year to check on the school's progress in instruction in english and Math.   That is, if the kids scores increase in aggregate, they are performing.
4) schools that perform in the 60th percentile get a 25% bonus per student  70th percentile get a 40% bonus 80th percentile get a 70% bonus and 90th percentile get a 100% bonus.   schools that have students go backward, or are in the lowest 25th percentile have to refund the money paid.
5) there are no districts.  A kid can go to any school anywhere.    
6) grade level is set by the proctored tests.  No kid gets a diploma without being at grade level in reading or math.
7) schools have an absolute right to expel students for any or no reason in order to maintain discipline.  If a parent has a student expelled from three schools, the parent is responsible to get the kid to a school that works for the kid, or face civil penalties.


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## blu (Sep 13, 2010)

AllieBaba said:


> Wow, that's right out of the communist handbook, isn't it?



which post?


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## blu (Sep 13, 2010)

Baruch Menachem said:


> 1) privatise the lot of them.   Not sold, hived off as individual co operatives, collectives or whatever.
> 2) payment for services from the government would be a base rate with a requirement for base line competency on a per student basis
> 3) independently proctored tests twice a year to check on the school's progress in instruction in english and Math.   That is, if the kids scores increase in aggregate, they are performing.
> 4) schools that perform in the 60th percentile get a 25% bonus per student  70th percentile get a 40% bonus 80th percentile get a 70% bonus and 90th percentile get a 100% bonus.   schools that have students go backward, or are in the lowest 25th percentile have to refund the money paid.
> ...



not so much on this one. too many teachers are assholes and hold grudges. my 7th grade teacher got fired for basically trying to get 5 to 8 of us expelled simply because she didn't like us.


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## ConHog (Sep 13, 2010)

blu said:


> Baruch Menachem said:
> 
> 
> > 1) privatise the lot of them.   Not sold, hived off as individual co operatives, collectives or whatever.
> ...



We already can expel students for a variety of reasons. It's difficult but not impossible, and has nothing to do with the teachers. They can't even recommend it, well I guess that they COULD but we wouldn't care.  Even our principles don't have a say in expulsions. That's the superintendent of school's job to recommend expulsion and then the school board votes whether to do it or not, although we never go against his wishes.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 13, 2010)

Trajan said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > I would completely remove it from the County level and move it to the State Level. Then I would set up various levels of school based on intelligence levels and behavioral problems.
> ...




It's the Stalin & Emmanuel Education Initiative!


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## psikeyhackr (Sep 16, 2010)

Mandatory accounting in grade school and high school.

Maybe 7th grade and 11th grade.

I had to memorize how to spell ANTIDISESTABLISHMENTARIANISM.

That is harder than Net Worth = Assets - Liabilities.

Fifth graders can learn accounting as well as collegians

psik


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## Granny (Sep 16, 2010)

What is this "block" education thing?  I don't have much of an understanding of what it is, how it functions, and what the purpose is behind it.

Much more parental involvement in their child's education.

Given the "feel good" grades that are given out these days, teachers should be tested to determine what their actual knowledge is as part of the hiring process.  Those who got "feel good" grades but have little actual knowledge should not be considered for employment.  Grades, therefore, should be based on actual academic achievements - not on whether some students' feelings will get hurt if they don't get good grades regardless of poor performance.  

Absolutely no teachers' unions.  Period.

Revival of US flags and Pledge of Allegiance.  If different students involved with extra-curriculum activities/sports, etc. want to say a prayer before an activity begins then they should be allowed to do so; but religion should not be taught as a class - that should be something taught at home.

Different levels of education with curriculum requirements for each level, _i.e._, college prep, business, general/trade.  Core classes should be required regardless of level of education chosen.

Greater emphasis on reading and comprehension.  If you can't read and comprehend you can't do much of anything else - like following instructions for completion of other subjects. 

At least four years of English language in high school - including studies in literature - Shakespeare, the classics, poetry, modern literature and the authors;

At least two years of a foreign language: Latin, Spanish, French, German, etc.;

At least two years of basic science with other advanced studies (biology, chemistry, etc.) for those whose interests lie in the sciences;

At least two years of basic math with other advanced studies (algebra, calculus, etc.) for those whose interests lie in mathematics;

At least two years of history and government classes;

Physical education/general health; sex-ed classes should not be offered, it's better left for parents to teach their children;

Trade and business classes such as woodworking, mechanics, typing, business math, etc. for those who are just not cut out for college or business;

Music and Art (elective courses) definitely need to be revived.  These classes help round out students so that they can function in different social situations with at least a minimum of knowledge on a given subject.

These classes should include some history of the various styles and masters of art, the various styles and musicians, as well as hands-on art, singing or playing the students' chosen instruments.

Federal government should stay out of education - it should be a state run proposition with more direct involvement of parents.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 16, 2010)

Following 45 minute classes should be mandatory.

Math, English, Spanish, A science class,History ( not social studies) Computer skills.

A 7th 45 minute class would be for an elective.

Teachers should be tested once every 2 years for proficiency in their subjects they teach. With real consequences if they fail.

Get rid of standardized tests. Cut Administration in half. Get the Federal Government OUT of SCHOOL rooms 1-12.

Note Spanish would be mandatory 1st through 8th grade and from 9 to 12 an elective language would be required.


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## Baruch Menachem (Sep 16, 2010)

getting the parents more directly involved is the biggest first step.   Discipline can follow.

Aprophacal story out of the bad old days in Russia..


The parents were required to come once a month and help out the school in some way.   Sweep the hallways, clean the blackboards, etc.   (This was the kind of compulsory volunteerism that made the XUSSR such a lovely place)    Since teachers were not allowed to touch the kids, ever, it was expected that any discipline would be taken care of at home.   Schools sent back a daily report to the parents which was expected to be signed.

And consistent persistant problems that interfered with the education of the collective might result in a short vist from the CheKa.  Parents were totally responsible for their kids behavior, and had all necessary authority to make sure the kids followed norms.



The Orient is big on school uniforms, which for girls tend to be expensive.   From what I have seen, it is counterproductive, but uniforms are a  big part of the culture.    Russia is still big on the uniforms that haven't changed much since 1917.  For girls, it must be humiliating.

(Back in the Brezhnev era they let loose on the standards for girls stockings, and were never able to get back)





These girls are all in correct uniform.





Apprently, one of the weird traditions that has grown up about graduation day in Russia is a swim in the nearby fountain.     Ze Russianz, zey is Vierd zometaims.


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## kwc57 (Sep 16, 2010)

Interesting all this talk about testing teachers for proficiency in the subject they teach.  What does this do to homeschooling where the average housewife teaches all subjects at different grade levels to their kids.  Should the have to pass proficiency tests for math, english, science, history etc. from 1st grade thru 12th?  Could anyone pass that?


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 16, 2010)

kwc57 said:


> Interesting all this talk about testing teachers for proficiency in the subject they teach.  What does this do to homeschooling where the average housewife teaches all subjects at different grade levels to their kids.  Should the have to pass proficiency tests for math, english, science, history etc. from 1st grade thru 12th?  Could anyone pass that?



Is my tax dollar paying for mom to home school? Home Schooling requires proficiency testing of the child to pass each grade level.


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## kwc57 (Sep 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> kwc57 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting all this talk about testing teachers for proficiency in the subject they teach.  What does this do to homeschooling where the average housewife teaches all subjects at different grade levels to their kids.  Should the have to pass proficiency tests for math, english, science, history etc. from 1st grade thru 12th?  Could anyone pass that?
> ...



So does public school.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 16, 2010)

kwc57 said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > kwc57 said:
> ...



The difference is that A) a home schooled child that fails must return to Public school, in effect FIRING the mother. B) nothing happens to teachers that fail students.


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## ConHog (Sep 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> kwc57 said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



and of course mom doesn't get $40K a year plus bennies to fail her own kids.


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## kwc57 (Sep 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> kwc57 said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Depends on individual states.

http://oklahomahomeschooling.org/ok...meschooling:_An_Oklahoma_Constitutional_Right

http://oklahomahomeschooling.org/oklahoma-homeschooling-laws.htm#Leaving_Public_School


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## Bern80 (Sep 16, 2010)

I have lots of opinions of course, but the only two I will comment on would be first a slight tweak to the foreign language thing people are bringing up, I agree with that, but I would make those whose primary language is english learn spanish and those whose primary langauage is spanish learn english.

I also think schools really need to be teaching financial literacy. So many of our problems would go away if people understood money and handled it responsibly. 

Unions in schools. I have never understood why they are necessary and it seems schools would be so much better and efficient without them. What is the purpose of a union? It's to protect the employees from an exploitive employer. But the employer in the case of schools is essentially the government, so why does a group of employees need protection from the government?


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## psikeyhackr (Sep 16, 2010)

Bern80 said:


> I also think schools really need to be teaching financial literacy. So many of our problems would go away if people understood money and handled it responsibly.



How does that differ from mandatory accounting?  I admit that all of the accounting books I have seen SUCK.  It is more like they are designed to convince people that accounting is difficult to understand and being a professional accountant is GREAT.  It is 700 year old arithmetic  And is very tedious and time consuming without a computer.  But properly designed computer software should make it easy for anybody.  The computer could tell the user with every entry whether it is in balance or out of balance and if the last entry put it further in or out.

But they also need to explain the difference between depreciation and depreciation allowance.  Just because the government does not let people file depreciation on some things does not mean they don't depreciate.



> Unions in schools. I have never understood why they are necessary and it seems schools would be so much better and efficient without them. What is the purpose of a union? It's to protect the employees from an exploitive employer. But the employer in the case of schools is essentially the government, so why does a group of employees need protection from the government?



Oh, teachers are supposed to TRUST the government.  Why?  I don't!  

We have cheap computers.  Why can't we begin short circuiting the schools.  People act like kids only learn in schools.  With the RIGHT E-BOOKS why couldn't they learn more out of school than in it?

psik


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## Wry Catcher (Oct 5, 2010)

Thread bumped as the issue has been renewed by Chanel (the dumbest generation).  Education in America is failing; it's easy to blame others, not so easy to offer solutions.


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## bodecea (Oct 5, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



School Choice.   Schools get to choose who they take and keep.

Those who can't cut it get a minimum 1 year vacation working those jobs that illegals take now.


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## psikeyhackr (Oct 5, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Thread bumped as the issue has been renewed by Chanel (the dumbest generation).  Education in America is failing; it's easy to blame others, not so easy to offer solutions.



A solution was demonstrated in 1987 but it is kept under the rug.



> Often these at-risk students were disruptive in classes to the dismay of their instructors. When this happened, it was nothing new because these pupils had been frustrating their teachers for years.
> 
> The school board in Indian River County in Florida confronted the problems that accompanied keeping at-risk students in regular classes, and they looked for a solution. A new use of computers was suggested: remove these students from regular classrooms, and let the machines teach them. Since teachers didn't relish the difficulties involved in trying to teach these students, it was an opportunity to try something new without arousing opposition from teachers. After considering the options, the school board authorized the establishment of a program using computers. It was begun in Vero Beach High School in 1987. School authorities put the at-risk students into a separate section where teaching was done, not by teachers, but by computers. Teachers in these classes became facilitators of learning.





> Authorities in Vero Beach knew their pupils in computerized education were learning. Nonetheless, they were unable to graduate because twenty-four credits were required. Credits depend primarily on time spent in completed classes. Even if the computer students knew enough, they still lacked sufficient credits. Therefore, authorities decided to use the GED exam as a replacement. This option set up a horrendous complication for the at-risk students trying to graduate. Only sixty-six percent of successful graduates can pass the GED with the Florida requirements after twelve normal years of learning in school. The at-risk students had been markedly behind when they entered the program. Now the school demanded that they not only equal other graduates, but that they do better than one-third of them. If they failed, their quest of a diploma had also failed. Odds against these students passing the GED were enormous. No one unfamiliar with the power of computers could have given them much chance to graduate.
> 
> When the tests were given and scored, questions about the effectiveness of this novel way of teaching vanished. Computers had effectively overcome those oppressive negative odds. Eighty-five percent of these students taught by computers pass the GED with the Florida requirements on their first attempt.


Computers as tutors - section I

In 1987 It would be two years before Intel would introduce the 486 processor.  Today a $300 netbook would be more than 10 times as powerful as that.  I haven't seen what software was used in 1987.  

We now have the problem of figuring out what kind and how to create a cyper-culture.

None has ever existed before so we don't know how.  So who is in control of how we do it.

psik


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## JFK_USA (Oct 8, 2010)

So kids won't have the freedom or liberty to choose what they do. Automatically throw low iq people into trade positions? Bs what's the cutoff? 

Our education system isn't the entire problem, it's the parents and the support system they have. Teachers have to teach more kids at 25K a year. Why would the smartest people want to work for such a low wage? We have to make the education a key aspect in our society, make it cool, make it fun to be smart. Don't just teach the basics of life, teach more. 




GHook93 said:


> I would completely remove it from the County level and move it to the State Level. Then I would set up various levels of school based on intelligence levels and behavioral problems.
> 
> Here is how it works: School starts at age 4 going 5 days a week. Parents may be CRIMINALLY liable for not making their kids go to school.
> 
> ...


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## Douger (Oct 8, 2010)

Wicked Jester said:


> Stop shoving politics down the students throats.
> Teach them the basics. The basics needed to get succesfully by in life.
> Get rid of the revisionist "HISTORY" books....Teach them the truth.
> Put those beautiful american flags back in the classroom.
> ...


Brilliant.
stop shoving politi.....put the beautiful flags back.........
Duh troof ? Hi kiddies. This nation was founded by war, slavery and genocide.
Fire a teacher who is unfortunate enough to be trying to keep a bunch of baggy pant, gold toofed, porch monkeys from killing each other.
Get rid of the unions and get some minimum wage teachers to fix the problem.


My thoughts ?
Bring back corporal punishment. ProblemS solved.
Kinda hard to do now since...... dem kid B kayin day gunz ta skoo


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## chanel (Oct 8, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



Wry - if I had to pick ONE thing - it would be this:  All K-3 teachers must be reading certified.  Any child who is not reading at grade level by third grade will be retained until they are able .  There is NO excuse for students to be reading at 2-3 level in the upper levels unless the child is SERIOUSLY handicapped (which is only about 2% of the population).

I teach reading at the high school level.  You can only imagine the anger and frustration of my students at age 16.  They are NOT dumb, but they think they are.  Passing them along to high school is almost abusive in my opinion. I get a great deal of parent support (most of the parents request me)  because if there is ONE thing they want for their child, it is basic literacy to be able to function in the real world.  There is no greater responsibility for the schools in my opinion - and no greater waste of money than to give a kid a diploma that he cannot even read.


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## Annie (Oct 8, 2010)

JFK_USA said:


> So kids won't have the freedom or liberty to choose what they do. Automatically throw low iq people into trade positions? Bs what's the cutoff?
> 
> Our education system isn't the entire problem, it's the parents and the support system they have. *Teachers have to teach more kids at 25K a year.* Why would the smartest people want to work for such a low wage? We have to make the education a key aspect in our society, make it cool, make it fun to be smart. Don't just teach the basics of life, teach more.
> 
> ...



Teachers have a difficult job, one that only someone who likes kids and teaching should be doing. However, they do it for more than $25k on average:







In the more populated areas, where the schools often are more troubled, salaries are higher. My own state, one that spends more to borrow money than Mexico:

Illinois Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in IL: $58,686



> If you are considering becoming a teacher  in Illinois, you will make the third highest teacher salary in the country. The average Illinois teacher salary starts at $37,500 and averages $58,686 a year. Starting salaries are the fourth highest in the nation. This fact is especially attractive to new teachers who want to complete a masters degree early on in their careers; bumping them up the pay scale.



I live in one of the 5 counties including Chicago, here is my hs district pay scale:


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## Annie (Oct 8, 2010)

kwc57 said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > kwc57 said:
> ...


Yeah, but not with the diversity of abilities, learning styles, and one-on-one attention. If the parent is able to master the materials in high school well enough to teach it, more power to them. Most home schooling parents I know teach what they know well, even AP courses, but what they don't? They swap subjects with another parents, enroll them in local high schools for certain courses, (usually by high school including PE, music, art, for social reasons), or enroll them in community college at 000 or 100 level.


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## editec (Oct 8, 2010)

Believe it not, as liberal as I probably seem to many of you, I'd make schools much more strict than they currently are.

There's so many things I'd change about our educational system, starting with how its funded, who runs them, and how they'd be run, that you wouldn't recognize the editecian eduucational system.

For instance?

We'd have one national school system (funded nationally) with one standard set of classes and requirements for graduation.

I have absolutely no confidence in the theory that school ought to be run locally.

And if one looks at the wildly different outcomes that one gets between school districts, one ought to be able to see why I have no confidence in the system we have in place now.

Two nearby school districts whose students are demographically similar can have very different student outcomes.

Why?

Because the management of the schools can be so very very different and much of that stems from very different school board expectations.

This does a great disservice to students, folks.


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## Annie (Oct 8, 2010)

editec said:


> Believe it not, as liberal as I probably seem to many of you, I'd make schools much more strict than they currently are.
> 
> There's so many things I'd change about our educational system, starting with how its funded, who runs them, and how they'd be run, that you wouldn't recognize the editecian eduucational system.
> 
> ...



So put the 'Fed' in charge? Who perchance do you think the Fed would have implementing its goals and objectives? Oh yeah, some locals. Same results, less control, more levels of corruption. Great idea.


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## Wry Catcher (Oct 8, 2010)

chanel said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.
> ...



Reading and Reading comprehension is the foundation for educational success as long as we keep teaching the same way we always have; for many this is not the case.  For example,  My oldest son is a whiz at math but tires quickly when he sits down to read (I can recall spending a full day simply reading, and I was generally a very physically active kid).  When we would get something to put together (a gas BBQ, furnature or setting up a home wireless network) I always read the instructions.  Sometimes my oldest son has the project half-done by the time I've read the instructions.
It's fun to watch.  He picks up parts and studies them as he pieces things together.  I remember, in grad school, we took the WAIS and the exercise with the Red and White blocks was particularly interesting.  Some of us looked and studied the diagram and then tried to match it; others looked at the diagram and started playing with it - the tactial learners were almost always quicker.
My point being we all have are own learning style and we should not be too quick to label a child as 'disabled'.  If success leads to success, surely failure leads to further failure; finding what best works for a child is a difficult problem but one which needs to become a priority.
Maybe assigning kids to classes by age is a mistake and having IEP meetings where the child and his/her parents are made to feel the child is 'broken' make matters worse.

In short we agree on the importance of reading, my concern is the method should do no harm.


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## CrusaderFrank (Oct 8, 2010)

My 8th grade science teacher Michael Kadish, was the best educator on the planet. He could make kids who thought that science was nerdy get psyched about it. But he made the same salary as the worst history teacher on the planet, my 8th grade history teacher, a woman who bragged she had the same lesson plan for 20 years.

Moreover, the US "Educational" system is designed to eliminate teachers like Mr Kadish.  

He became an administrator and in an effort to try to break him, the NYC Board of Ed made him a substitute principal at the absolute worst elementary school in the city, on Faile Street in the South Bronx.

Well, they picked on the wrong guy.

When Micheal got to the school he met with every teacher and told them that he wanted the name and home phone number of every student who did not do their homework, the teachers smirked and complied.

The next day some parents almost fainted dead away when they got a call from, "Mr Kadish, the principal at your son/daughter school, stressing the importance of parental involvement and the need to make sure homework was done."

He would visit every classroom and he insisted that the kids applaud when he enter the room (OK, so he's a little dramatic) This way they knew who was in change and who they could turn to.

The next thing he did was to ask the city to change the name of the street from "Faile St" to "Success Place" because nobody should have to go to school on Faile Street.  

The city complied and the Board of Ed took out the long knives. They found a new and better position for Mr. Kadish...behind a desk in Brooklyn where he would never have to interact with students.

See, Michael was an embarrassment. He was exposing the institutionalized failure that is NYC Education, the UFT and the US Department of Ed.

When he was reassigned the school protested!  They demanded that they keep the one and only educator who ever cared. But Michael went to Brooklyn, the kids and parents were crushed, the UFT was happy.

Jimmy Breslin wrote about him. You can look it up.


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## Wry Catcher (Oct 8, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> My 8th grade science teacher Michael Kadish, was the best educator on the planet. He could make kids who thought that science was nerdy get psyched about it. But he made the same salary as the worst history teacher on the planet, my 8th grade history teacher, a woman who bragged she had the same lesson plan for 20 years.
> 
> Moreover, the US "Educational" system is designed to eliminate teachers like Mr Kadish.
> 
> ...



CF, you finally get it.  Support for a progressive and the rejection of a conservative approach.  Damn, there is hope for you yet.  Change can be good, old ideas must be challenged and Lemon Cream Pies made from lemons.


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## CrusaderFrank (Oct 8, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > My 8th grade science teacher Michael Kadish, was the best educator on the planet. He could make kids who thought that science was nerdy get psyched about it. But he made the same salary as the worst history teacher on the planet, my 8th grade history teacher, a woman who bragged she had the same lesson plan for 20 years.
> ...



Call it what you will. I support the Spirit.


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## Wry Catcher (Oct 8, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



Me too.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 4, 2010)

At this moment I am accessing this site with the $99 Sylvania smartbook from CVS.  It took a bunch of fiddling around with manual configuration to get the wireless working but it does work.

I can watch Youtube videos from Khan Academy.

So one smartbook per child should be possible in the US.  

psik

PS - A smartbook uses an ARM processor instead of an Intel so this thing is not a netbook.


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## rikules (Dec 4, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.




I would STOP grouping kids according to age and START grouping them according to intellect and maturity levels


not all 7 year olds are on the same intellectual/maturity level


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## ConHog (Dec 4, 2010)

rikules said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.
> ...




Unfortunately the net result of that would be dumb 12 y/os picking on smart 8 y/os.


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## Bern80 (Dec 14, 2010)

editec said:


> Believe it not, as liberal as I probably seem to many of you, I'd make schools much more strict than they currently are.
> 
> There's so many things I'd change about our educational system, starting with how its funded, who runs them, and how they'd be run, that you wouldn't recognize the editecian eduucational system.
> 
> ...



Sorry Ed. But the fact that schools are under a big umbrella is the problem, not the solution. You have to think of school like any other business. Though instead of business measurements like quality ratings of products and profits you measure the success of a school by things like graduation rates and avg. grades. 

You just got done in another thread about how socialized systems bring the whole down, but that's exactly what you want to do for the education of our children?

No, schools need to have the reigns taken OFF and be allowed to do things their own way. To figure out what actually works. The more schools do things differently the more we will be able to see what actually works in terms of producing smart, globally competitive intelligence.

The other reason for "UN-standardization" if you will. Is that all kids don't learn the same way or at the same pace. If the goal is to get kids through school with necessary skills to advance to the next level and be competitive in a global economy than our schools need the ability to teach customize curriculums on an individual level. 

We need to really think outside the box. Concepts like doing away with the k-12 grade structure that focuses more on a child's age than where they are mentally. 

As to your differing outcomes. GOOD. Let parents see what works and what doesn't and allow them the ability to 'shop' for the school that they feel will provide the best outcome for their children.


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## Pax Romana (Dec 15, 2010)

Big Black Dog said:


> I think there should be a heavy load of math, science, history, computer skills, reading, writing, physical education and social interaction within the students and student body.  What I mean by that is kids need to be taught what is appropriate behavior within the community.  All the rest of it - meaning the liberal minded feel good courses, can be discarded.  Also to graduate from high school a student should be able to speak one other language other than English be it French, German, Spanish, or whatever.  I also believe that all students should be required to wear an appropriate school uniform, no facial hair, and maintain a decent haircut.



School uniforms are evil though? Hence why public schools don't have them.


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## ConHog (Dec 16, 2010)

Bern80 said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Believe it not, as liberal as I probably seem to many of you, I'd make schools much more strict than they currently are.
> ...



Yes, and no . I am fully for having national standards but at the same time you are correct, local schools need the flexibility to make things work for them.


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 16, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



Eliminate the DoEd.  Let schools compete for a national ranking, make that ranking well known and what it cost to live in that district.  The best school areas will thrive as others empty, b/c most people want the best they can afford for their kids.

Get rid of mandatory attendance after age 14.  the last thing kids need is some jackass making it harder for them to learn.  And it would make getting expelled a more serious punishment.

No one that doesn't finish gets any type of entitlements.  further encouragement to finish.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 21, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.
> ...



Computers and the internet make the educational system obsolete.  Netbooks come with 250 gig drives now.  Create a 100 gig educational database.  That is enough space for 100,000 books.  But this society can't even create a recommended reading list classified by age and subject.

The social class and economic power games depend on the control of the distribution of knowledge.

Vero Beach high school in Florida showed what could be done in 1987.

I am accessing this site with the $100 CVS Sylvania computer right now.  It could easily hold 500 books and educational software.  The 8 gig SD Card could take that to 8000 books.  But the computer industry wants to make money selling computers.  They will just give lip service to education to serve that end.

psik


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 21, 2010)

psikeyhackr said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



That got me thinking.

My wife works from home.  Why can't my kids learn from home?  They issue all HS students lap tops (I kid you not), mainly so they can email in thier home work.

Granted, not everyone will be able to do this, and some classes have to be tought in a classroom, but most of it can be done over the internet.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 21, 2010)

1. Dismantle the DOE, and forbid the national government from being involved in education in any manner.  It is a state issue.

2. Privatize the system 95%

3. Ban teacher's unions unless they are private schools only.

4. Mandatory property tax credit for homeschoolers.  No reason for people who opt out of the failed system to support it.

The rest would be left to individual communities to argue about how they educate their kids.


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## Douger (Dec 21, 2010)

Bring back corporal punishment.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 21, 2010)

holy shit the kanuckian has a good idea.


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## The Infidel (Dec 21, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



*School vouchers*


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## The Infidel (Dec 21, 2010)

Douger said:


> Bring back corporal punishment.



Worked for me


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## The Infidel (Dec 21, 2010)

Big Fitz said:


> 1. Dismantle the DOE, and forbid the national government from being involved in education in any manner.  It is a state issue.
> 
> 2. Privatize the system 95%
> 
> ...



Another several great ideas!


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## Big Fitz (Dec 21, 2010)

The Infidel said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Dismantle the DOE, and forbid the national government from being involved in education in any manner.  It is a state issue.
> ...


I think so.  But I doubt Wry will concur.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 21, 2010)

Wicked Jester said:


> Stop shoving politics down the students throats.
> Teach them the basics. The basics needed to get succesfully by in life.
> Get rid of the revisionist "HISTORY" books....Teach them the truth.
> Put those beautiful american flags back in the classroom.
> ...



Thats insane, how are you going to fire a teacher if the kids in his classroom just don't care? alot of times the teacher does try and the kids just don't give back.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 21, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> psikeyhackr said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Adults work from home because they are earning a paycheck and have proven themselves to be responsible to be able to work without being micro managed, you really think you can give a 16 year a lap top and send them home and expect them to do their work on their own? I don't think thats a good idea at all.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 21, 2010)

Big Black Dog said:


> I think there should be a heavy load of math, science, history, computer skills, reading, writing, physical education and social interaction within the students and student body.  What I mean by that is kids need to be taught what is appropriate behavior within the community.  All the rest of it - meaning the liberal minded feel good courses, can be discarded.  Also to graduate from high school a student should be able to speak one other language other than English be it French, German, Spanish, or whatever.  I also believe that all students should be required to wear an appropriate school uniform, no facial hair, and maintain a decent haircut.



I'm curious, why no facial hair?


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 21, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > psikeyhackr said:
> ...



I'm active in my kids grades.  But I see your point.  Just b/c my kids would pay attention, most of the time, doesn't put them above the idea of surfing the net when bored.

meh

It was a bad idea.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 21, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> > Stop shoving politics down the students throats.
> ...


The kids don't care or give back or try because there are no consequences due to namby pamby schools and absentee parents.  Like a cop without a gun.  What is he going to do?  "Stop!  or I'll say stop again!"


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 21, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> > Stop shoving politics down the students throats.
> ...



We can do that by removing the law that makes attendance required.

Imagine how nice it would have been to get the ass clowns, not just outta your class, but out of the school..


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## High_Gravity (Dec 21, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



I don't think all kids would do that but I have seen enough that would just throw their lap top in the back of their car and just take off downtown, where I went to school the teachers really didn;t care what you did as long as you didnt threaten them. Maybe some of the gifted kids could take the lap tops and work from home but I really don't think this program would work for the majority of teenagers.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 21, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Wicked Jester said:
> ...



Thats nice for the kids who want to learn but what about the others? where would they go? the streets?


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## High_Gravity (Dec 21, 2010)

Big Fitz said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Wicked Jester said:
> ...



You are absolutly right, where I went to high school I got to see a kid call an English teacher a fucking asshole, I actually seen several kids cuss the teachers out, and they do this because they know the teachers can and will do nothing, a paper tiger.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

Anyone consider school is about socialization too?  Learning to get along with others, work well in teams and to show up everyday on time.  Issues which matter little for the home schooled, but important attributes in the work force.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 21, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> I'm active in my kids grades.  But I see your point.  Just b/c my kids would pay attention, most of the time, doesn't put them above the idea of surfing the net when bored.
> 
> meh
> 
> It was a bad idea.



I found my nitwit teachers boring.  Science fiction saved me in 4th grade.

I could sit it class and pretend to pay attention while thinking about stuff I read.

Now a lot of the stuff is free and sci-fi has gone down hill with Star Wars crap but people that think fantasy is science fiction will say its great.

All Day September, by Roger Kuykendall
The Project Gutenberg eBook of All Day September, by Roger Kuykendall.

That is not quite as good as *A Fall of Moondust* by Arthur C. Clarke but it is the closest thing to it that I have seen in the public domain.

The trouble is that as a kid there was no one to tell me what the good stuff was so it is like stumbling around in the dark.  So in this digital age kids are bombarded with HIGH SPEED crappy material.  So randomly selecting public domain sci-fi will mean mostly junk most of the time.


City at World's End by Edmond Hamilton - Free eBook

All_Day_SCI-fi - - All_Day_SCI-fi

psik


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 21, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Anyone consider school is about socialization too?  Learning to get along with others, work well in teams and to show up everyday on time.  Issues which matter little for the home schooled, but important attributes in the work force.



It is about propagation of the current culture.

So we have had a consumer culture since the 50s.  And now we are watching consumerism CRASH.  But the laws of physics don't care about people or culture.  So if the schools really taught science kids would figure out a lot of the nonsense.  I haven't been to an auto show since the 60s.  But all of us Good Americans are supposed to LOVE CARS.  We have bought our way into slavery going into debt for junk.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B738X-ibz2o[/ame]

Socialization is social control through group think.  It tends to seek the lowest common denominator.

psik


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 21, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



Where do they end up anyway?  The streets?  Welfare?

At 14 you preatty much know if your are going to make it to college, you may not know what, but you do know that you will or won't go.  It comes from the family that's behind you.  If mom and dad don't give a damn, neither will the teen.  So why screw up other kids chances by dragging others through a system they don't want to be in?

I know it sounds cruel, but at some point serious change needs to be made for the betterment of the whole.


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 21, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Anyone consider school is about socialization too?  Learning to get along with others, work well in teams and to show up everyday on time.  Issues which matter little for the home schooled, but important attributes in the work force.



Good point.  but I'm certain I heard a report that homeschooled kids get along just fine if not better b/c they have a stronger sense of family.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 21, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Well when I was 14 I had no idea what I wanted to do or where I would end up, I don't think its as clear cut for alot of kids when their teenagers, the priviliged already have plans in place for their children but I had to make my own plan and I joined the Military. My parents could not afford college. For some people it takes time to figure out what their going to do, but I don't think that gives them an excuse to make the learning environment difficult for everyone else.


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 21, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



Simular situation.  with simular results.  I tried to work my way through college, it got down to eat, heat or school.  Joined the Navy, they had all 3.

hmm, maybe that was a little harsh.  Lets say the schools have the right to long term suspend/expell a kid that constantly causes issues with the other teens.  They would have to be able to justify doing so.

That would remove the problem kids, and keep those that can be taught something usefull.


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## chanel (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree with that. NJ outlawed expulsion a few years ago and now judges routinely "sentence" juvenile delinquents to attend school, who might have dropped out otherwise. That's a huge
 problem. But what I will say is that our VPs do not have a problem with teachers kicking out disruptive kids. The standard is "interfering with the learning of others" Many schools do not have this cooperation and teachers and students are expected to put up with it. That kind of adminstrative support is a fairly easy fix in most schools. Not all. But most.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Are all "problem kids" cut from the same cloth?>


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

chanel said:


> I agree with that. NJ outlawed expulsion a few years ago and now judges routinely "sentence" juvenile delinquents to attend school, who might have dropped out otherwise. That's a huge
> problem. But what I will say is that our VPs do not have a problem with teachers kicking out disruptive kids. The standard is "interfering with the learning of others" Many schools do not have this cooperation and teachers and students are expected to put up with it. That kind of adminstrative support is a fairly easy fix in most schools. Not all. But most.



I mentioned much earlier "peer court".  Do you recall?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



The military is one option, I too joined the Navy (but during my sophmore year in college -couldn't take F/T courses and work F/T and didn't want to be drafted into the Army).
IMHO we need polytechnical high schools, not everyone wants to or has the ability to attend college.


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## uscitizen (Dec 21, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



Make the parents pay the full price for their childrens education.  That would give them incentive to make sure they were getting their moneys worth.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.
> ...



Isn't the issue a democrcy requires an educated populace, and industry, business and government an educated work force?


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## uscitizen (Dec 21, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



No but a successful democracy does.
I do not see euccation as a requirement in our constitution.


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## JamesInFlorida (Dec 22, 2010)

I  don't know about the other 49 states-but in Florida the FTCE (Florida Teacher Certification Exam), you either pass or fail. When you apply to be a teacher at schools-they only see pass or fail. The passing score is a 67%. Why not show the passing grades to the school-I think everyone can agree someone who gets a 95% if more qualified to teach the subject material than someone who scored a 70%. It may be a small step-but I think it's an easy step to take towards making the education system more efficient.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 22, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.
> ...



Thats a terrible idea, I've been to countries where parents have to pay to send their kids to school and the parents that don't care just don't send their kids to school. If your idea was implemented the situation would be 100 times worse.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 22, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Are all "problem kids" cut from the same cloth?>



That is the interesting about the Vero Beach Florida incident.  The problem kids were put on computers.

Computers as tutors - section I

SECTION VI - Computers as Tutors: Solving the Crisis in Education

psik


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## uscitizen (Dec 22, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



I know it is a terrible idea, I was doing a sarcastic dig at all those who whine and cry about socialism.
And those who cry that if is not spelled out in the constitution the govt should not be doing it.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 22, 2010)

Big Fitz said:


> The Infidel said:
> 
> 
> > Big Fitz said:
> ...



You're correct, wry does not concur.  Have you considered the consequences of such 'Reform'?


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## Big Fitz (Dec 22, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > The Infidel said:
> ...


Yes.  A pittance of irritants compared to the good of their implementation, and all the right people removed from power.


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## uscitizen (Dec 22, 2010)

#2 and #3 seem to cancel each other out in your ideas.
Well all but 5%.

so no federal dollars should be used for education?


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## Big Fitz (Dec 22, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> #2 and #3 seem to cancel each other out in your ideas.
> Well all but 5%.
> 
> so no federal dollars should be used for education?


Not a one.  It is unconstitutional for the federal government to spend on education.  It is a state issue.  The only reason you have state involvement in 5% of the schools is that they cover the POSSIBLE need for schools in an area unable to find private management facilities.


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## uscitizen (Dec 22, 2010)

Ahh well you will love your property tax bill under your plan 

Or do you not support vouchers?

with 95% privatized there will be no vouchers anyway.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 22, 2010)

If the system was privatized, there would be no tax levies for schools, and therefore great tax savings.


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## uscitizen (Dec 22, 2010)

So you think that all parents should pay the full price of their childs education?

You support the caste system in America?


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## Big Fitz (Dec 22, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> So you think that all parents should pay the full price of their childs education?
> 
> You support the caste system in America?


To assume a caste system is inevitable is foolishness at best.  Why should another pay for your child's education?  Is it not your responsibility?


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## Intense (Dec 22, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



Charter Schools. Advancing on principles and practices that prove effective.


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## uscitizen (Dec 22, 2010)

Big Fitz said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > So you think that all parents should pay the full price of their childs education?
> ...



Ohh I agree in idealistic principle.  However reality overrides idealism in my case.
And if parents had to pay the full cost of their childrens education we for sure would have a caste system within a generation or two.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 22, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...


This nation was built on the idea of class mobility based on merit.  I doubt it highly.  that philosophy is still too ingrained.


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## mdn2000 (Dec 25, 2010)

First I would cut the funding 100%. 

Everything should be online, private education, of course we cannot trust the Democrats to do the right thing when it comes to educating their children so children of Democrats would have to report to a government school to make sure they at least learn how to write enough to file for welfare and food stamps.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 25, 2010)

That's because liberals do not trust free people and need subjects at the very least, slaves are more preferable though.


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## hortysir (Dec 25, 2010)

Put them in to the free market system.
Why can't a school be for-profit?
Increase the competition. Get the best teachers. etc.....


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## Big Fitz (Dec 25, 2010)

it very easily could... The problem is that it breaks the socialist indoctrination's power structure so that isn't a reasonable solution... to them.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 25, 2010)

Big Fitz said:


> If the system was privatized, there would be no tax levies for schools, and therefore great tax savings.



Great profits for the companies and poor to fair education: poor trade off.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 25, 2010)

Intense said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.
> ...



What is wrong with you guys?

If the parents are not doing their job, the schools will be poor, whether public or charter or private.

I am not going to argue this silliness.  Unsubscribe.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 27, 2010)

I am all for teachers discpling students in school, I have seen students cuss out teachers and the teachers could do nothing, maybe security guards in the classroom is what we need, I don't know.


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## mdn2000 (Dec 27, 2010)

Privatize and make parents pay for the school. Reduce the tax we pay to one tax, no property tax, nothing but one sales tax, then even the poor will afford schools.

Further, the rich and the middle class have always given money to the poor, we have gave our hard labor through the form of many to scholarships, billions of dollars, why does anyone think we would stop giving to the poor, especially when it comes to education.

One tax will end the waste, our poor education system all comes down to waste in the government, waste is created when you have all levels of government, city, county, state, and federal finding new ways to collect more and more money, its all they focus on, not education.

The only way to end the cycle is to take all sources of money away from those with the least competence to manage the money. 

All sources from fees to lottery winnings to taxes, bonds, from tiny cities to the federal government.

That will fix education. Privatize all of government.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 27, 2010)

Business and industry require an educated work force.  Nearly every job requires at least a HS diploma, a document which suggests the recipient demonstrated at least the minimum standard necessary in terms of learning and responsibility.
Most tech jobs reqiure at least a two-year certificate or degree; many today require a BS and experience simply to get into an interview.
The ability to read, comprehend, compute and speak clearly are MQ's (minimum standard) for most semi- professional entry careers.
Not every student desires or has the competence for a college degree, yet we seem to want to teach all kids the same way.  No wonder our educational system sucks.
And of course the usual solutions, simple solutions to complex problems enjoy much celebrity.

It's not the parents fault.  It's not fault of the Unions or the teachers.  It is systemic failure, a product of multiple failures on every level, from the kid to the parent to the teacher to the principal; to the school board, to the city, county and state decision makers and to the Congress of the United States.

Packing school boards with religious zealots and partisan hacks has made the process of systemic fix nearly impossible; principals going it alone and not using local resources at the earliest hint of need exacerbate problems more easily mitigated at an early age; and the result seems to squander the greatest assest of kids - curiosity.
School uniforms, prayer in school, private schools, charter school, home schools all ignore the basic issue, school is to prepare children to become responsible adults - able to communicate on an adult level, provide for their own needs and benefit the social order.
On this basic level our system is a failure.  What is amazing, some kids flourish; most however get by and never reach their potential because it has been extinguished by adults.


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## mdn2000 (Dec 27, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Business and industry require an educated work force.  Nearly every job requires at least a HS diploma, a document which suggests the recipient demonstrated at least the minimum standard necessary in terms of learning and responsibility.
> Most tech jobs reqiure at least a two-year certificate or degree; many today require a BS and experience simply to get into an interview.
> The ability to read, comprehend, compute and speak clearly are MQ's (minimum standard) for most semi- professional entry careers.
> Not every student desires or has the competence for a college degree, yet we seem to want to teach all kids the same way.  No wonder our educational system sucks.
> ...





> School uniforms, prayer in school, private schools, charter school, home schools all ignore the basic issue, school is to prepare children to become responsible adults - able to communicate on an adult level,



I can not take any of your post serious. You have not any idea of where the problem begin nor ends.

Having to debate, argue, and join with this mentality for a solution is what creates and exaggerates the problem.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 27, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Business and industry require an educated work force.  Nearly every job requires at least a HS diploma, a document which suggests the recipient demonstrated at least the minimum standard necessary in terms of learning and responsibility.
> ...



I'm not surprised.  Simple solutons appeal to you; there are no simple solutions.  Solutions begin by defining the problem(s); unfortunately, pointing fingers and placing blame may identify the cause, but not the problem itself.
I posited a problem; it is systemic.  We teach all kids no matter their interests or ability the same way.  Until we stop doing the same thing over and over we will never get a different result.


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## mdn2000 (Dec 27, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



You also posted unsubstantiated bullshit which to me makes me question everything you posted.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 27, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



I posted an opinion, based on a great deal of diverse experience.   My opinion, any opinion, does not need to be subtantiated and you have every right to express you opinion that my opinon is bullshit.  Of course calling it bullshit proves nothing other than you lack the ability to offer a counterpoint to my opinon - other than calling it bullshit.
So, explain what you call bullshit and I'll defend my opinion or revise it and apologize.  In not doing so I will continue to believe you're an uneducated RW fool.
The ball is now in your court.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 27, 2010)

LMAO, mdn (mentally deficient numbskull)2000 has cut and run.


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## irishbrae (Dec 28, 2010)

If you make calculus mandatory for all seniors then get ready for a new class of "non-graduates" who just give up and try to go to work. Many kids struggle with algebra..much less calc... why does a cosmetologist need to know differentiation...Instead of making all kids try to live up to some very high standard that some are not capable of..why not offer a truly "higher" path for our brightest kids. They are the real losers when we try to raise the bar for everyone...because it usually results in the bar being lowered so that more can get over it. Why not recognize that there are different levels of interest and ability and cater to each one for the best possible outcome.


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## mdn2000 (Dec 28, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> LMAO, mdn (mentally deficient numbskull)2000 has cut and run.



Yes, I cut and ran, the delivery of your rebuttal kept me hiding in my bed, please, I give, I will leave you alone in hopes I dont receive another scathing rebuke.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 28, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > LMAO, mdn (mentally deficient numbskull)2000 has cut and run.
> ...


But did you poop yourself?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 28, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > LMAO, mdn (mentally deficient numbskull)2000 has cut and run.
> ...



Don't worry yourself, you're as stupid as Revere, CrusaderFrank, Stepanie and a dozen other fools whose ignorance is not willfull.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 29, 2010)

irishbrae said:


> If you make calculus mandatory for all seniors then get ready for a new class of "non-graduates" who just give up and try to go to work. Many kids struggle with algebra..much less calc... why does a cosmetologist need to know differentiation...Instead of making all kids try to live up to some very high standard that some are not capable of..why not offer a truly "higher" path for our brightest kids. They are the real losers when we try to raise the bar for everyone...because it usually results in the bar being lowered so that more can get over it. Why not recognize that there are different levels of interest and ability and cater to each one for the best possible outcome.



Calculus is less than 350 years old.  Double-entry accounting is more than 700 years old.

Why isn't accounting mandatory for EVERYONE?

Fifth graders can learn accounting as well as collegians

Don't cosmetologists and physicists buy homes?  Don't they have to pay interest?

So if accounting had been mandatory for EVERYONE since the 50s would we have this economic mess now?   Does calculus just waste the time of a lot of smart kids on stuff that doesn't turn out to be very important to most of them?

psik


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## High_Gravity (Dec 29, 2010)

I think more emphasis needs to be put on how to manage money, pay bills, live within your means etc. alot of these stupid fucking kids have no idea what their going to do after High School and they think working part time at Pizza Hut and partying with friends all weekend is the way to go.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 29, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> I think more emphasis needs to be put on how to manage money, pay bills, live within your means etc. alot of these stupid fucking kids have no idea what their going to do after High School and they think working part time at Pizza Hut and partying with friends all weekend is the way to go.



Of course we have the problem of schools not being able to teach kids that Europeans didn't have the right to steal all of the land and make everyone else pay to live on it.

You can't talk about economics without talking about control of land.

The economic wargame is a continuation of the military wargame by other means.

psik


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## mdn2000 (Dec 29, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



Explain? I pointed out the bullshit in my post, were you to stupid to see that, you throw that dumb stick around so often it seems you hit yourself in the head.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 29, 2010)

psikeyhackr said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > I think more emphasis needs to be put on how to manage money, pay bills, live within your means etc. alot of these stupid fucking kids have no idea what their going to do after High School and they think working part time at Pizza Hut and partying with friends all weekend is the way to go.
> ...



Huh? what does any of that have to do with teaching these kids how to fend for themselves? have you talked to a teenager lately? they have NO FUCKING CLUE how to live on their own or how to pay a fucking bill!


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## Ernie S. (Dec 29, 2010)

Wicked Jester said:


> Stop shoving politics down the students throats.
> Teach them the basics. The basics needed to get succesfully by in life.
> Get rid of the revisionist "HISTORY" books....Teach them the truth.
> Put those beautiful american flags back in the classroom.
> ...



Great start! Do away with multicultural crap and teach American history. Sure George Washington Carver and Martin Luther King are relevant, but far less so than  the US Constitution.
Special Education spending needs to be re-prioritized. Spending our limited funding on children who will never achieve much more than flipping burgers is poor use of our money. We should be spending on future scientists, mathematicians, doctors and leaders.


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## mdn2000 (Dec 29, 2010)

The schools suck because of many problems, we have lower test scores and the highest illegal alien population of all the nations we are compared to, any connection?


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 29, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> psikeyhackr said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



The entire real estate business relates to possession of land.  Talking about economics and education while leaving that out is absurd.

Like comparing Romeo and Juliet to West Side Story taught me all that.    4 years of English Lit was mandatory but I learned more from science fiction that I selected on my own.  Accounting with interest rates on loans would explain how it makes sense to avoid certain bills and pay off some at accelerated rates.

Credit card issuers target college students - Jul. 14, 2008

This is more than 50 years old and extremely modern.

Cost of Living, by Robert Sheckley
The Project Gutenberg eBook of Cost of Living, by Robert Sheckley

psik

PS - Blaming things on kids after so called adults have spent the last 50 years screwing things up is absurd.  Whose fault is it that educators never mentioned mandatory accounting and economists haven't discussed planned obsolescence.  The culture is built on hiding important information.  But progressively more complex technology combined with increased population continuously increases complications so that strategy eventually becomes stupid and fatal.


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## mdn2000 (Dec 29, 2010)

We cannot even save the school books, I hear they already got sixteen pages devoted to Obama. 

We must burn the entire public school system to the ground. I see not one thing that is worth saving. Given all the failures of the government lets start by being honest and stating the obvious, public schools are a reflection of the incompetence of those in the government. The only way to eliminate the host the parasites suck on is to eliminate the host. 

No schools, no property tax, no property tax and you can survive in times like this without a job if your house is paid for.

Public schools suck because of those who take government jobs, mostly failures, as reflected in their work.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 30, 2010)

psikeyhackr said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > psikeyhackr said:
> ...



Man my next door neighbors kids graduated from high school last summer and didn't grasp the concept of what a landlord was, and its scary because this kid is now an adult out of school. I'm not blaming this on the kids but they need to be taught the skills to be able to survive on their own, right now they are not getting that. Most of these kids couldn't balance a household budget if their lives depended on it.


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## manifold (Dec 30, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think.  Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.



I've posted this before, and it's a bit radical, but I really think it would be a significant improvement on the current public school system.  Here are the big points:

1) Reduce it from K-12 to K-8.

2) Everyone progresses at their own pace (and you have up until you are say 18 to 20 years old to graduate).

3) A sliding cash payout for early graduation, the earlier the greater.

I concede that society has an obligation to all it's members to educate individuals up to some minimum standard.  I suggest that minimum is a comprehensive 8th grade level.


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## psikeyhackr (Dec 30, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Man my next door neighbors kids graduated from high school last summer and didn't grasp the concept of what a landlord was, and its scary because this kid is now an adult out of school. I'm not blaming this on the kids but they need to be taught the skills to be able to survive on their own, right now they are not getting that. Most of these kids couldn't balance a household budget if their lives depended on it.



It is really interesting that this country can't even make a national recommended reading list for kids classified by age and subject.  But has any nation done that?  It would probably mess with the socio-economic structure of the country.  How can there be properly conducted class warfare if the lower classes are not kept ignorant?  

It is like information is randomized so everybody has an equal opportunity to stumble around in the dark trying to figure out what the hell is going on.  True education for EVERYBODY is not the objective.  The majority of people must be kept losers.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/screwing-average-man-David-Hapgood/dp/B0006W84KK]Amazon.com: The screwing of the average man: David Hapgood: Books[/ame]
.

Good information is only easy to find if you already know where to look.

psik


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## Jackson (Jan 9, 2011)

It's time to stop the fads and political correctness and get back to teaching with qualified teachers.  Longer school day, longer year.

K-3:

Only teach Reading, writing and Math.  No computers.  Each grade has a proficiency text at the semester and the end of the year.  If the child does not pass the test at the end of the year, , summer school is available or repeating the grade is necessary.

At the end of the third grade, the children can read on the 3rd to 5th grade level and begin understanding literature, write with proficiency with proper grammar, and can handle all math up to and including simple algebra.

No buying books every three years for political correctnes, no social studies or science until the content areas begin in the fourth grade.  Get the basics down.  If a student can't read, they won't learn the content areas anyway.

Grades 4-6

Heavy on American history, science, geography, literature and computer insstruction.  Current events and civics. Begin foreign languages

Grades 7-9

Biology, extending math geometry, algebra 2, calculus,, foreign languages, accounting classes, typing, personal finance classes, moral decisions classes, classics literature, civics and current affairs and history

10-12  Paths of Education

College Bound Education or  Vocational Training ending with diplomas in Vocational Skills or College Preparatory Skills Mastered.

NEVER EVER PASS A STUDENT WHO HASN'T MASTERED THE MATERIAL.


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## mdn2000 (Jan 10, 2011)

I think a full day of school is bad, how come we can not teach kids in less time with all our advances.


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## IanC (Jan 10, 2011)

mdn2000 said:


> I think a full day of school is bad, how come we can not teach kids in less time with all our advances.



competition works best. can you imagine how fast the top portion of the class would burn through the curriculum if they were allowed to? especially now that we have computers to keep track of where students are. I can easily imagine the top third or even top half completing the required work Feb. Leaving half the year for electives of any type.

and make no mistake, those are the students that we need to keep interested in education if we are going to take back the lead in innovation and productivity.


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