# The Success of the Big Lie



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Yesterday there was an excellent thread on the Ukrainian holocaust. 

	Today is the anniversary of the sentencing of Alger Hiss. Most folks dont remember him, but most Americans have been fed the lie that the real enemy of America during WW II and the post-war era was Senator Joseph McCarthy. The Big Lie.


January 25, 1950 Alger Hiss sentenced for perjury for denying he was a Soviet spy (see Jan. 21).  Dean Acheson, Trumans Secy of State, said:
	I do not intend to turn my back on Alger Hiss. 

                	 February 9,1950 In his famous Wheeling, West Virginia speech, Senator Joe McCarthy said he had the names of 57 card-carrying Communists in the State Department. [Two weeks after Alger Hiss was convicted of perjury.]


	If you have always accepted "Senator McCarthy as personificaton of evil" as true, can you name any innocent folks, -that means people who did not support or work for the blood-soaked ideology that took over many parts of the world, threatened America, and was responsible for some hundred million deaths, Communism,  -whose lives were ruined by the spotlight that Senator McCarthy pointed toward Communists, Communist supporters, and officials of the United States who were lax in protecting the country?

My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jan 25, 2010)

Ann Coulter did a great job examining Alger Hiss, the Rosenbergs and Joe McCarthy in her book... "Treason", I believe.

Personally, we need a government in power again not afraid to try, convict and pubically hang traitors.  Nowadays, there is no penalty for treasonous acts.  It's a wink and a nod and maybe a deferred sentance if anything happens at all... unless you're an Islamist.  

Then you'll get put in prison at least where you can build up a following to go out and wage Jihad as your proxies.


----------



## Truthmatters (Jan 25, 2010)

Mccarthy was the main enemy in WWII?

I have never heard ANYONE claim that.

He was an evil toad but not the main evil toad.


----------



## Big Black Dog (Jan 25, 2010)

I think a very big problem in America is that we have turned into an "It's ok" nation meaning nobody does anything wrong.  Remember the old saying back in the 60's - "If if feels good, do it?"  That's where we are today.  Political correctness keeps people at bay in crying foul when it sometimes needs to be cried.  We are our own worst enemy because we no longer police ourselves in terms of human behavior.  You can't paddle your neighbor kids ass when he being a brat and send him home.  First of all, there's nobody at home to receive him because both parents (if there are two parents) are at work and secondly, they will react violently because you've punished their perfect little child.  Everything decent in this country is now viewed as radical behavior when in the past it was the people doing all the wild stuff that were questionable.  Now, radical is the norm.  Sad, huh?


----------



## RodISHI (Jan 25, 2010)

Big Black Dog said:


> I think a very big problem in America is that we have turned into an "It's ok" nation meaning nobody does anything wrong.  Remember the old saying back in the 60's - "If if feels good, do it?"  That's were we are today.  Political correctness keeps people at bay in crying foul when it sometimes needs to be cried.  *We are our own worst enemy because we no longer police ourselves in terms of human behavior*.  You can't paddle your neighbor kids ass when he being a brat and send him home.  First of all, there's nobody at home to receive him because both parents (if there are two parents) are at work and secondly, they will react violently because you've punished their perfect little child. * Everything decent in this country is now viewed as radical behavior when in the past it was the people doing all the wild stuff that were questionable.  Now, radical is the norm.*  Sad, huh?



Now days you cannot even punish bad behavior of your own children without someone screaming it is a form of abuse. In as much as beating respect into someone does not work treating disrespect with blind eyes does not work either. Accountability went out the window with the new age progressives.


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.



My opinion is that, like all politicos, there was a kernal of truth under the mountain of bullshit McCarthy generated: hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" were not regarded as candidates for the loony bin, but good candidates for congress, as much as hysterics regarding "Witchcraft" were regarded as Moral Models.



Big Black Dog said:


> I think a very big problem in America is that we have turned into an "It's ok" nation meaning nobody does anything wrong.  ....  Sad, huh?





RodISHI said:


> Accountability went out the window with the new age progressives.



I disagree that "new age progressives" have been the cause of declining social accountability. IMHO McCarthyism, and the entire radical reaction to fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's caused the pendulum of cultural norms to swing the other direction and accept "moral relativism" as a strong arguement to defend the weakest case. 

What we (Western Civilization) needs now are more clearly defining events that are "Wrong" or "Evil." We need another Hitler, another OBL, to reset the equilibrium.......Interestingly, Islam has no concept of Moral Relativity.

.....Unhappily the stakes are higher today than during the 1950's when MCCarthy was able to define Evil as Communism.....I'm sure the only act that can happen today that would convince moral relativists that Evil exists, is the explosion of a nuclear device inside a major city during a gay pride parade......

Islamist may teach The West that McCarthy might have had a point: Radicalism cannot be countered with Moral Relativism, but only with Radicalism.


----------



## RodISHI (Jan 25, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.
> ...



Everyone is entitled to their opinion yet that does not mean they are correct. 

What we don't need is another slaughter of innocent people such as Hitler performed yet there are those out there that are more than willing to go that route. What people will get for their choices to choose evil over good as a majority is very severe punishments in the natural such as droughts, plagues and famines.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.
> ...





 "fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's ..."
Absurd. Would you use the same phrase with respect to the Nazis?

Simply apply the same rationale and sentiment to a scenario where two administrations were not only riddled with Nazis, paid by Hitler's government, but also known to be Nazis, and suddenly the ludicrousness of your statement shines through.

" [The] relationship [between communism and Nazism] may never be fully understood. But the Russian Red Terror, in its emphasis on the elimination of entire classes of peoples, in its description of opponents as "vermin" to be exterminated, does seem like a precursor of the German concentration camps. Moreover, Nazism profited greatly not only from Lenin's and Stalin's Gulag system--Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, solicited reports about the operations of Soviet camps--but also from Bolshevism itself, which served as both a whipping boy and, at times, a political idea that could be collaborated with. The two ideologies validated each other."
WALL STREET JOURNAL MONDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1999


'hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" ...'

Wow, do you need a refresher!

This is akin to saying "only a child molester"

I recommend The Black Book of Communism, written originally to find that Communism really wasn't that awful...but what they found made them reverse course.

"In its many enthroned variations, from Lenin's 1917 revolution to the recent MarxistLeninist regimes of Africa, communism has killed upwards of 100 million people65 million in China alone. Courtois and his colleagues do not simply unfold the numbers relentlessly and numbingly. Instead, they painstakingly explore the many ways the killing was done-from summary execution to forced deportations, from mass starvation to the gulag-and examine its many pretexts.
The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression 
Foreign Affairs (Book Review); New York; Nov/Dec 1999; Robert Legvold;


Now as for Senator McCarthy, your "a kernal of truth" comment misses the point by so much that I can only conclude that you know nothing about the time or the man.

He accepted the vituperation of every 'politico,' every newspaper, to ring the bell, to make all aware that the Democrat government was willing to overlook the Soviet agents throughout government, and to accept that they were taking orders from Moscow and sending Stalin all of Americas' secrets.

"...stakes are higher today ..."
No, they are not. Had the Soviet agents and fellow travelers suceeded, you would be in a gulag such as those of Stalin, or possibly cannabalized, as happened to educators in Mao's China.

Such is the effect of the success of the Big Lie.


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> "fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's ..."
> Absurd. Would you use the same phrase with respect to the Nazis?
> 
> Simply apply the same rationale and sentiment to a scenario where two administrations were not only riddled with Nazis, paid by Hitler's government, but also known to be Nazis, and suddenly the ludicrousness of your statement shines through.
> ...



Ah, so this is the little red herring that we're supposed to run after?: 

Communist Sympathisers = Nazi Sympathisers

and after we begin running after this ridiculously obvious deviation from the topic, then we can begin making absurd leaps of logic like equating American Communists during 1950-1960 with German Nazis during 1930's-1940's. 


Then just to raise the volume of your laughable gullibility:




PoliticalChic said:


> 'hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" ...'
> 
> Wow, do you need a refresher!
> 
> This is akin to saying "only a child molester".



Lets at least try to remain On-Topic, shall we? 

I'm not going to discuss the Nasi Party in Germany. 
I'm not going to discuss Mao in China. 
I'm not discussing Stalin's USSR. 

I _*AM discussing*_ McCarthyism. I'm defining this as the investigations of Senator McCarthy, in the USA, during the 1950's, m'k?

Now, dear madame, unless you can show me where the American Communist Party was smashing in Jewish Storefronts, sending people to gulags in Alaska, and forcably "reeducating intellectuals" at Harvard, I'll kindly ask you to try to, at very minimum, to insert some reality into your shrill replies.

Otherwise, go make me a sammich and bring me a beer.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jan 25, 2010)

Alger Hiss, Genuine Communist spy

Another Big Lie is to make FDR into a Great America President.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > "fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's ..."
> ...



1. "Ah, so this is the little red herring that we're supposed to run after?: 

Communist Sympathisers = Nazi Sympathisers"

It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities. 

So your excuse, er...defense is that you are not aware of of the vast degrees of overlap between "Communist Sympathisers = Nazi Sympathisers"...
Both are world domination philosophies.
Both believe that the utopia that then envision require the extermination of opponents.
Both are responsibe for millions of murders of innocents.
Both are comand-and-control theses.
Both are examples of totalism.
Did I miss any?

So, are you putting forth that you were unaware of these, or will you continue to play dumb?

"...obvious deviation from the topic..." 
If it is a deviation, it was as an attempt, as a courtesy, to respond to your risible comment that Communism is "fairly moderate political movements," by comparing it to what you would find difficult to call  a "fairly moderate political movements."



"I'm not going to discuss the Nasi Party in Germany. 
I'm not going to discuss Mao in China. 
I'm not discussing Stalin's USSR. "

A wise strategy if you own a huge lacuna on the subject.

And a diaphanous attempt to limit the range of my exposition.

So, you wish to discuss only Senator McCarthy, but not Communism, the topic about which the Senator's fame, or infamy, orbits?
You become the subject of amusement.

The Senator has been the subject of attack, not because of a kernel of truth in his arguments, but because he exposed the liberals and Democrats as accepting the precepts of Communism, and still do. 

So, this is the extent of your discussion of Senator McCarthy:"My opinion is that, like all politicos, there was a kernal of truth under the mountain of bullshit McCarthy generated..."

All the depth of wallpaper.

What exactly is the kernal of truth, if not exposing of liberals and Democrats?

Where is a real opinion here beyond the level of a public school essay?

I'd even be willing to show the links to Wilsonian Progressives, but I know how upset you'd be re: "on topic".

BTW, I made you the "sammich," but you'd best have someone taste it for you.


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Alger Hiss, Genuine Communist spy
> 
> Another Big Lie is to make FDR into a Great America President.



Another Big Lie is that Santa Clause is gonna bring me Paulie Perette for Christmas


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities. .



Its true that you're certainly consistant in at least one thing: Poor Judgement

You meant, "Underestimated." 

Still haven't read anything about American Communists sending anyone to a gulag, so your screeching has fallen on deaf ears. 

After your meds begin to be effective, and you return to reality, let me know.

Until then you're just blithering.

Return to the kitchen, you forgot the pickle.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities. .
> ...



Still nothing about McCarthy?

And rather than 'overestimated,' let's try 'sorely disappointed.'

But, "... American Communists sending anyone to a gulag,..." let's make it really simple, as it seems that that is what you require: spies don't send anyone to gulags.

Spies prepare for their masters to take over, and the gulags follow.

Are you able to understand the distinction?

Overestimated.

And, I couldn't find the pickles, so I substituted a nordihydrocapsaicin pepper. You may need another beer.


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Well, it seems that you're returning to reality.

Now, can you identify _*ONE SPY*_ that McCarthy found?

I happen to _LIKE _peppers!!

So you feeble attempt to incapacitate me is foiled again!!


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors?  It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making when he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF For decades, people who should not have been allowed anywhere a government job were strolling into sensitive positions with the US government. For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.

The defending of a clealy guilty Alger Hiss was the reason for Senator McCarthy's campaign. See the OP.

 According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist.  Moss, in fact, had been absolutely identified as a Communist Party member  by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, _A Conspiracy So Immense_). She was listed in the Communist Partys records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon.  At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.

Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, _The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy,_ p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss.



Glad you liked the peppers: you look good in red.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> The Senator has been the subject of attack, not because of a kernel of truth in his arguments, but because he exposed the liberals and Democrats as accepting the precepts of Communism, and still do.



If you really and truly think this is why he came under attack, you're sadly mistaken.  I also have to question if you're a liberal and authoritarian as a Conservative would understand that the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government that constituted a threat to the liberty of every man woman and child in the USA.

That isn't an over statement.  If McCarthy's actions had gained long term support imagine just how much abuse the current Democratic controlled Senate and House could hand out to their political opponents.

There's a reason that McCarthy's actions are villified.  Namely, even if he found a few Communists (and even a blind squirrel finds a nut if they look hard enough), he violated our long standing traditions and notions of justice to do so.

People that support McCarthyism *ARE NOT CONSERVATIVES* and have no room to claim to be so.  Supporting un-Constitutional expansions of power at the Federal level make you a neocon.


----------



## Ravi (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Let me tell you a big lie...


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist.  Moss, in fact, had been absolutely identified as a Communist Party member  by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, _A Conspiracy So Immense_). She was listed in the Communist Partys records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon.  At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.
> 
> Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, _The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy,_ p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
> The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss.



Provide proof she broke the law.


----------



## Ravi (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist.  Moss, in fact, had been absolutely identified as a Communist Party member  by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, _A Conspiracy So Immense_). She was listed in the Communist Partys records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon.  At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.
> ...


PC dreams of a day when proving someone is a _liberal_ makes them guilty of a crime.

In her mind, anyone that every belonged to the CP should be shot.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

Ravi said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



IF that is true, then quite simply she is un-American.  It is impossible to support criminalizing dissent and support a free Republic.  It is just as impossible to support trying to *limit* dissent and support a free Republic.

PC, your thoughts on Ravi's accusation?


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors?
> 
> Glad you liked the peppers: you look good in red.



So, McCarthy didn't find anyone more guilty of being a "red" than I, and that's only because of the peppers.

Now, fetch me another beer.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > The Senator has been the subject of attack, not because of a kernel of truth in his arguments, but because he exposed the liberals and Democrats as accepting the precepts of Communism, and still do.
> ...





"...the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government..."

Instead of vague jargon of the left, please, if you can, show exactly what it is that Senator McCarthy did that you find objectionable.

No babble.

Specifics.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Let me tell you a big lie...



At your level, emoticons are far more suitable than dialogue.

If you have an opinion, rather than a total acceptance of the liberal line, please specify your problem with Senator McCarthy.


Silence will be acceptable.


----------



## Ravi (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


I think the others on this thread are whipping you too hard as it is. 

You have a very un-American attitude, just like your hero Ann Coulter.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> "...the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government..."
> 
> Instead of vague jargon of the left, please, if you can, show exactly what it is that Senator McCarthy did that you find objectionable.
> 
> ...



I can't help your reading comprehension.  That is *exactly* what McCarthy tried to do.  The exact list.

If you don't understand it, I suggest you go back and read the transcripts and the history.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Ravi said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



"PC dreams of a day when proving someone is a _liberal_ makes them guilty of a crime.

In her mind, anyone that every belonged to the CP should be shot"

Ah, slander as the liberal's attempt at debate.

I suppose the fact that President Eisenhower, not a fan of Senator McCarthy issued this Executive Order, as outlined in Time Magazine, might help you to understand:

 "Executive Order 10450, issued by the President on April 27, 1953, establishing broad new security standards for federal employment. Critics say that Ten-Four-Fifty results in a cold reign of terror among Government workers, that no man is safe from his neighbor's malice. Defenders say that Order 10450 is necessary to protect the U.S. from the infiltration of its Government by enemies. 

EXECUTIVE Order 10450 requires that the hiring and continued employment of federal workers must, in the judgment of department and agency heads, be "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security. The order recognizes that an employee may be loyal, yet still be a security risk. The homosexual may be easy prey to blackmail. The person with relatives behind the Iron Curtain may be exposed to overwhelming pressures. The alcoholic may unintentionally blab secrets. 

But the system does notand cannotadhere strictly to judicial principles, with the "defendant" presumed innocent until proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. For guilt in the legal sense is not involved. The idea is not to wait until the drunken employee gives away an important secret; it is to get rid of him beforehand. 
Read more: National Affairs: THE MEANING OF SECURITY - TIME


The judicial reference is the same thinking used by the Obama Administration in continuing to hold some of the terrorists at Gitmo: national security.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist.  Moss, in fact, had been absolutely identified as a Communist Party member  by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, _A Conspiracy So Immense_). She was listed in the Communist Partys records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon.  At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.
> ...



Dr., your argument is sorely limited by not understanding the debate.

This from my earlier post:
" McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors?  It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making when he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF For decades, people who should not have been allowed anywhere a government job were strolling into sensitive positions with the US government. For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice."

Now, if that is clear, answer this:

If Ms. Moss was a 'card-carrying' member of the Communist Party, which she was, do you think that the Army was living up to its duty by allowing her in the code room of the Pentagon?

Your answer to this will, indeed, be telling.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



I accept that she was un-American, not a loyal American, and whatever permutation you wish.

Now tell me if she should be employed by the government in sensitive positions. 

If your answer is the oh-so-logical "perhaps not," then you agree with the campaign of Senator McCarthy.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



First up, there was no proof that Ms. Moss was a card carrying member of the Communist Party at the time of her employment in the Army.  The most that could be said is that she came in contact with the Party when she was younger.  It is strongly suspected that she left the Communist party long before her employment in the Army.

If the most you have as proof is a magazine suscription following her, then I submit you have never been an alumni of a University or College.  The alumni mailings have a bad tendancy to find you anywhere.  After Katrina the one piece of mail that could find me monthly, despite my best attempts at letting bill collectors know my current location, was the alumni newsletter.  And I was trying to lose them.

In addition, there was never a single shred of proof that Ms. Moss ever posed a security risk, ever acted untoward, or was even in the same room as a decrypted message or the means to decrypt them.

If you consider Ms. Moss a vindication of McCarthy, I strongly suggest you put down your copy of "Treason" and pick up a few books.  Or look up the McCarthy transcripts.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Its unfortunate that McCarthy didn't limit himself to governmental jobs.  He also went after Americans not affiliated with the security appartatus in any way shape or form.

And as for Ms. Moss, provide proof she was a security threat.  Or that she was even active in the Communist Party at the time of her employment.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors?
> ...



You are particularly dense this day.

A member of Communist Party in the code room of the Pentagon is fine with you?

And chew on this one, Owen Lattimore.  

Just as Alger Hiss was a key advisor to the Roosevelt administration, Lattimore was the "expert" to whom they turned when deciding how to act toward China.

In actuality, McCarthy did not name Lattimore, but only referred to a Mr. X. In his speeches, McCarthy referred to Lattimore as "Mr X... the top Russian spy... the key man in a Russian espionage ring." On 26th March, 1950, Pearson named Lattimore as McCarthy's Mr. X.   Drew Pearson

Lattimore was found to be a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, _McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record_)

The aim of these paid agents of the Soviets was to dictate the direction of American foreign policy- and they were quite successful. Just as we see today, the liberal elites fell in line easily.

Had it not been for heros such as McCarthy, whose campaign the American public understood and supported, there would never have been a push-back against Communism by such anti-Communists as Eleanor Roosevelt, Arthur Schlesinger,jr, Walter Reuther, Hubert Humphrey, and others- none of whom supported McCarthy.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



I appreciate the compliment.

"I think the others on this thread ..."

It should be against the law for you to apply the work 'think' to yourself.

Your attempt to sidestep my request that you actually think, and provide specifics in your dislike of Senator McCarthy is completely transparent.

Care to try again?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > "...the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government..."
> ...




Now, I know you are capable of a higher level of articulation than that...

I hope you're not giving up.  

What, exactly, did Senator McCarthy do that you find objectionable?

Here, let me help, perhaps a multiple choice is more suitable for your talents:
Did he arrest folks?
Did he name names?
Did he ruin innocent lives?
Or is it the use of strong language, not play 'by the rules'... what?

Come on, give it a go.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Now, I know you are capable of a higher level of articulation than that...



I know you can read better than that.  The list is quite specific:



> ...the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government...



Tell me exactly in that list you do not understand, or that you dispute.

I put forward that if you not understand that list, you are either not very well versed with McCarthy's tactics when badgering those subpoened by him, or that you are not that proficient at English.

Now, what *exactly* do you dispute in this list.  That McCarthy is guilty of even one of them would be enough to number him among the blackest villians of American history.  That he is guilty of all three makes him more than deserving of the scorn heaped upon him and more.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



"Since Markwards information included an address for Annie Lee Moss, and Moss confirmed this address in her testimony, the possibility of mistaken identity was never a very realistic one.[25][26] In 1958 the Subversive Activities Control Board investigated a related case and confirmed Markwards testimony that Mosss name and address had appeared on the Communist party rolls in the mid-1940s. Several sources have reported this as "proving" that Moss had been a Communist.[27] More substantive is the evidence contained in Moss's FBI file, some of which wasn't revealed until the file was released through a Freedom of Information Act request. Andrea Friedman describes this evidence as "perhaps a dozen pieces of paperincluded a list of 'party recruits' that identified Moss by name, race, age, and occupation; membership lists from two Communist party branches, the Communist Political Association, and various ad hoc committees containing Mosss name and address, as well as the number of her Communist Party membership book; and receipt records from 1945 for Daily Worker subscriptions." Friedman concludes that Moss most likely had indirect contact with Communists through her cafeteria workers' union, and at most was probably a "casual recruit to the Communist Party, attracted by its social and economic justice politics," and later abandoned any associations with them. [28]"
Annie Lee Moss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And, once he exposed her, why would Senator McCarthy require any "vindication"?

What happened to Ms.Moss?

Was she sent to a gulag, as the folks she supported did to millions?
Was she even fired?

Or do you even know?  See what I mean about your knowledge of the subject?

She was rehired by the Army, just no longer placed in any sensitive postitions.

So, what's your beef?

Or will you now admit the the Senator performed a valuable and heroic function?

Ball's in your court.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



Please provide your information that supports this post.


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...




Actually simply identifying _*ONE SPY that McCarthy found*_ would be sufficient.

Instead, you hold forth Owen Lattimore?

Why not use Benedict Arnold as another example to justify McCarthyism?

Before you set up your next exposition full of smoke-and-mirrors, be sure to fetch me another beer...the last you brought was flat.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> What happened to Ms.Moss?



From your own link.



> Moss had been suspended from her position when McCarthy announced his interest in the case. In January 1955 she was rehired to a non-sensitive position in the army's finance and accounts office, and she remained an army clerk until her retirement in 1975 at age sixty-nine. She died in 1996.



Considering she was investigated by McCarthy in *1951* that means she lost her job for a period of nearly 4 years.  All because of an accusation.

Notice she was suspended *before* McCarthy actually called her before the Senate.  Considering that McCarthy could provide *absolutely no proof* that she was currently a Communist, nor that she was a security risk (and for that matter neither have you) Ms. Moss's case provides an ample example of why McCarthy deserves all of the scorn attached to his name.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Please provide your information that supports this post.




Read this link this time.

This is the third time I've provided this link in relation to McCarthy and your inquiries.  Read it this time.  In particular:



> Exercising Fifth Amendment rights in these secret hearings was risky. In one hearing, McCarthy -- a Republican from Wisconsin elected to the Senate in 1946 -- threatened a New York City teacher who refused to answer all his questions.
> 
> According to the transcript, McCarthy asked an aide to transmit the testimony to the city's board of education.
> 
> "I assume with this testimony they will discharge this man," McCarthy said. He turned to the teacher and added, "I may say your wife's testimony is being transmitted to the board of education also. I assume she will be discharged too."


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Now, I know you are capable of a higher level of articulation than that...
> ...



Again with the oh-so-vague "he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government..."

Who? How did he "circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government"?

So, his crime is 'badgering'?
"...the blackest villians of American history..." by badgering?  Badgering known Communists who attempted to give aid and comfort to a blood-soaked ideology?

Weak, very weak.

You are falling short of my expectatons.

No names, no specific 'crimes...'

Since you have written before, and are not a fool, the failure to admit the inadequacies of your argument must be due to a fear of loss of face.

Let me help you, since I appreciate your allowing me to provide the exposition that I wished, and I admit that I knew all along that any attack on the good Senator would fall flat.

This is because every one of my posts, documented all, are true and -as you proved, irrefutable.  

He jailed no one.

He ruined no innocent lives.

He exposed, not Communists so much, as a weak and lax government. 

As a result of his work and that of others, our government became stronger.

Thanks for playing.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Thanks for playing.



Weak.  Any illusions I had about you being a thinking and reasoning Conservative have been put to rest by this thread.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for playing.
> ...



My documentation an background material to your vague and empty platitudes.

I have no problem leaving the final determination to any readers.

Cheer up, someday we'll find a subject that you know more about than I do.

Maybe.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> I have no problem leaving the final determination to any readers.



Which in this case, means you give up.  Cheer up, maybe one day you'll actually learn to reason.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



You know, you're starting to look like a paid _agent provocateur_...allowing me to run rings around you-

cheap enough at a 'sammich, pepper and a beer.'

OK, but as for more names...

One of the lies about McCarty was that he &#8220;named names&#8221; ruining peoples&#8217; lives with reckless accusations.  Actually, McCarthy resisted releasing names to the public, except when Democrats forced him to name names. He raised the issue of loyalty risks working for the government rather than proven cases of espionage. His argument was that there are many reasons that a person should not be handling classified material, far less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt that one was a Soviet spy. McCarty said that he would attach names to the cases only in a closed committee hearing. When he presented  his case against the State Department on the Senate floor, McCarthy described the loyalty risks anonymously as case #1, case #2, and so on. 

 Democrats demanded names.  Democrat Senate Majority Leader  Scott Lucas (D-Ill.) said: &#8220;I want to remain here until he names them!&#8221; (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, _McCarty and His Enemies, p. 70, quoting the Congressional Record_).  Democrat Withers of Kentucky: &#8220;I should like to ask the Senator what reason he has for not calling names?&#8221; The Democrats voted to compel him to name names in front of the press.  

 McCarthy: &#8220;The Senator from Illinois demanded that I furnish all names. I told him that so far as I was concerned, that would be improper&#8230;I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong. That is why I said that unless the Senate demanded that I do so, I would not submit this publicly, but I would submit it to any committee&#8230;in executive session. It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health.&#8221; ( same source).

No more beer.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > I have no problem leaving the final determination to any readers.
> ...



I didn't 'give up'... don't you realize that you have been used for my purpose.


----------



## Ravi (Jan 25, 2010)

PC is only second in ferocity to PI. And almost as rabid.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Ravi said:


> PC is only second in ferocity to PI. And almost as rabid.



Thank you.

I'm guessing that you, also, felt that "every belonged to the CP should be shot." was a bit over the top.


----------



## Ravi (Jan 25, 2010)

Yes, I apologize.

I do believe you think they should all be imprisoned though, and that is kind of sad. Heck, I don't even think Republicans are tea partiers should be imprisoned because they have different political beliefs than I have.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 25, 2010)

Ravi said:


> Yes, I apologize.
> 
> I do believe you think they should all be imprisoned though, and that is kind of sad. Heck, I don't even think Republicans are tea partiers should be imprisoned because they have different political beliefs than I have.



Not at all; just educated.


----------



## Samson (Jan 25, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



No more beer?

That's OK; I'm tired of you shaking them up and ruining the head.

The fact is, McCarthy found _*NO SPIES, NOTHING, NADA!*_ And all he accomplished was ridiculously duplicious remarks like the one you have quoted:

"I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong......  It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health.

If anyone on this board said this. you'd call them an idiot.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



I only call idiots idiot.

Idiot.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jan 26, 2010)

Funny, McCarthy was a US Senator highlighting a real problem: Communist infiltration of the government, he's not Jack Bauer at CTU. 

He's just telling us we had a problem so bad that Gen Patton considered WWII a failure for the USA & GB because of how Eastern Europe fell under the heel of Alger Hiss's (and other at USState) masters


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Funny, McCarthy was a US Senator highlighting a real problem: Communist infiltration of the government, he's not Jack Bauer at CTU.
> 
> He's just telling us we had a problem so bad that Gen Patton considered WWII a failure for the USA & GB because of how Eastern Europe fell under the heel of Alger Hiss's (and other at USState) masters



So, you think MCarthy, a politician, had no motive other than "to highligh" communists:

"I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong...... It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health.

Apparently, you also think the best way "to highlight" guilty individuals, is to accuse any group, then let the chips fall where they may.

Where were YOU on 9/11/2001?

Please provide witnesses, so that we may interview them in a way that will allow them to connect the dots: knowing YOU will be the common denominator. BTW, we'll be bringing them in for questioning during working hours, and their employers will need to know why they need to leave.

Don't worry because we may be wrong: Its possible you may have a "Clean bill of health."

However, if I were you, I wouldn't expect any Christmas Cards this year.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Funny, McCarthy was a US Senator highlighting a real problem: Communist infiltration of the government, he's not Jack Bauer at CTU.
> ...



As you are clearly unfamiliar with the milieu of the war and post-war era attitudes toward Communism, a few indicia:

1. President Truman: I like old Joe. Joe is a decent fellow. (Obituary: Stalin Rose From Czarist Oppression to Transform Russia into Mighty Socialist State, NYTimes, March 6, 1953) And yet, President Truman, the third Vice President of President Roosevelt, was closer to being the messiah of the United States then the current President.

2. If President Roosevelt had died one year earlier, Stalin would have immediately gained control of the US Presidency: Soviet dupe Henry Wallace, the Vice President, probably would have appointed Soviet spy Harry Dexter White to Secy of the Treasury, and Soviet spy Alger Hiss to Secy of State.

3. In 1948, at the apex of Moscow-directed subversion of US politics, FDRs VP Henry Wallace, former Secy of Agriculture, to form the Communist-dominated and Soviet-backed Progressive Party. Of course, Wallaces Progressives allowed not even the most peripheral criticism of Soviet aggression.(John Patrick Diggins, Good Intentions, The National Interest, Fall, 2000)

4. Henry Wallace, Vice President of the United States from 1940-1944: Americas main enemy was Churchill and the British Empire. He insisted that peace would be assured if the United States guaranteed Stalin control of Eastern Europe. (Ronad Radosh, Progressively Worse, The New Republic, June 12, 2000)  When Stalin seized Czechoslovakia, Wallace sided with Stalin. Wallace Stalin blockaded Berlin, Wallace opposed the Berlin Airlift. After visiting a Soviet slave camp, Wallace enthusiastically  described it a s a combination TVA and Hudson Bay Company. Ibid, 

5.  The progressives received one million votes. The Communist Party USA did not field a presidential candidate, and instead endorsed Wallace for President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_(United_States,_1948)

6. Wallace met personally with KGB agents. (Allen Weinstein and Alexander Vassiliev, Haunted Woods, p. 119)
several prominent journalists, including H.L. Mencken and Dorothy Thompson, publicly charged that Wallace and the Progressives were under the covert control of Communists. Wallace was endorsed by the Communist Party (USA), and his subsequent refusal to publicly disavow any Communist support cost him the backing of many anti-Communist liberals and socialists (Henry A. Wallace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

In his diary, Wallace, whose view of the future of America required Soviet-style Communism, wrote that FDR had assured him that he was a few years ahead of his time, but that his vision for American would inevitably come. (John Patrick Diggins, Good Intentions, The National Interest, Fall, 2000)

7. This is the political landscape when Senator Joseph McCarthy decided to show America the danger that the Democratic Party found perfectly acceptable. I hope you begin to understand how close we were to the precipice.


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



You should save your "indicia," for the Wild Conspiracy Theory forum.

I wouldn't doubt you could also find similar post-war era attitudes that support the possibility of a Martian immediately gaining control of the US Presidentcy that "probably" would have appointed little green men to run the Treasury.

Your arguement has become as flat as that swill you've been serving as beer.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

Usually when I see McCarthy's name mentioned, it is in connection with the Hollywood blacklist, which he had nothing to do with. 

There _were _CPUSA members in DC and in Hollywood. They were sneaking, lying, conniving, weasly bullies. That they crumbled in the face of opposition, as much from Ronald Reagan as Joe McCarthy, does not make them harmless.


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Usually when I see McCarthy's name mentioned, it is in connection with the Hollywood blacklist, which he had nothing to do with.
> 
> There _were _CPUSA members in DC and in Hollywood. They were sneaking, lying, conniving, weasly bullies. That they crumbled in the face of opposition, as much from Ronald Reagan as Joe McCarthy, does not make them harmless.



"Sneaking, lying, conniving, weasly bullies" in DC?

Surely you jest.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm dead serious. And please, don't call me...oh screw it.


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> I'm dead serious. And please, don't call me...oh screw it.



SHIRLEY!!!

I knew you'd bite!!!!


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Usually when I see McCarthy's name mentioned, it is in connection with the Hollywood blacklist, which he had nothing to do with.
> 
> There _were _CPUSA members in DC and in Hollywood. They were sneaking, lying, conniving, weasly bullies. That they crumbled in the face of opposition, as much from Ronald Reagan as Joe McCarthy, does not make them harmless.



Don't take Samson at face, 

he is fully aware of the threat posed by Communism of that era... he's just playing and refusing to accept all of my documentation. 

Which is good, as it allows me to post info that most folks are not aware of.

Plus, he's drunk.


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Usually when I see McCarthy's name mentioned, it is in connection with the Hollywood blacklist, which he had nothing to do with.
> ...



Reading you're evidence for McCarthy's so called "Heroism" has driven me to drink.

"Stalin would have immediately gained control of the US Presidency"


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > I'm dead serious. And please, don't call me...oh screw it.
> ...


 
Congrats. You wanna beer?


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



I never turn down free beer, unless PoliticalChic offers.

I suspect she's peeing in it.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Usually when I see McCarthy's name mentioned, it is in connection with the Hollywood blacklist, which he had nothing to do with.
> ...


 
Well he's a fun drunk, anyway. It's easy to laugh now about the CPUSA of the 40s and 50s, considering how they've been made to look like old ladies at an afternoon tea. 

And _I'm_ enjoying your posts.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Gross, you juvenile.

For that, you have earned another lesson: Alger Hiss.

 With the Alger Hiss case, President Nixon exposed the liberals as dupes of totalitarianism. To many, Mr. Hiss was a traitor whose case proved beyond doubt the existence of Communist penetration of the Government. As the columnist George Will put it, Mr. Hiss's claim to innocence had become ''one of the long-running lies of modern American history. (Alger Hiss, Divisive Icon of the Cold War, Dies at 92 - Obituary; Biography - NYTimes.com)

Liberals would never forgive Nixon, and so he remains in the pantheon of most hated: Watergate was the revenge. Attacks on Nixon mitigated the guilt of Hiss. In the NYTimes obituary for Hiss: his reputation seemed to wax and wane with each new turn in the fortunes of Mr. Nixon.(Ibid) )  President Jimmy Carter lectured Americans on the foolishness of their "fear of communism". (Jimmy Carter: The Untold Story by Mark Silverberg)

While reacting with unblinking ennui to Soviet spies in high government office, Democrats engaged in drama queen theatrics over McCarthyism.(Ann Coulter, _Treason_, p. 10)

The major player in the Alger Hiss saga was fellow Communist, Whitaker Chambers. In his book, Witness, Chambers explains is disillusionment as follows. In 1938, he determined not only to break with the Communist Party, but to inform on the Party when he could. The reason was that he was informed that Stalin was making efforts to align with Hitler, in 1939, and from any human point of view, the pact was evil. As Hitler marched into Poland, Chambers arranged a private meeting with Adolf Berle, President Roosevelts assistant Secy of State. Chambers detailed the Communist espionage network, naming at least two dozen Soviet spies in Roosevelts administration, including Alger Hiss. Berle reported this to Roosevelt, who laughed, and told Berle to go f---  himself. (Arthur Herman, _Joseph McCarthy: Reexaming the Life and Legacy of Americas Most Hated Senator,_ p. 60) 

No action was taken, and in fact, Roosevelt promoted Hiss. Almost a decade later, Chambers was called before the HUAC and named Hiss as a Soviet agent. Hiss sued Chambers, at which time Chambers presented  four notes in Alger Hiss's handwriting, sixty-five typewritten copies of State Department documents and five strips of microfilm, some of which contained photographs of State Department documents. The press came to call these the "Pumpkin Papers"(Whittaker Chambers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) And, of course, all doubt was removed in 1995, when the Venona Soviet cables were decrypted.

Enough? Is this the QED that the Democratic Party is dangeously weak in protecting America?


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


 
Here. It's unopened. Behave.


----------



## mudwhistle (Jan 26, 2010)

I attended a SAEDA briefing today and some of the factors they mentioned that might indicate a possible terrorist seemed to fit Obama.

One in particular stuck out:

*Associates with known terrorists.......*


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Thanks, I really like posting about subjects in which I have an interest.

And Beer-boy allowed me the opportunity.

I was expecting the libs to defend the Dem party, yell and scream about McCarthy, but they seem less than interested.

I may have to post a response to my own posts!


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


 
Shhh! He's dozing. 

I think so many people have heard the Hollywood sob stories and revised histories that the truth about McCarthy was lost long ago. Somebody mentioned Ann Coulter's having put the record strait. I agree. He wasn't a saint, but he wasn't the drunken witch-hunter he's painted to be, either.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Face down in the Pea Soup. Good.

Since you mention Ms. Coulter, many liberal investigators have written extensively to support Alger Hiss innocence.  Some are interesting, and insightful. But I have found that when both sides are carefully considered, the left defenders tend to quibble about small discrepancies, rather than the larger questions of Soviet involvement, Democrat laxity, and espionage. For example NYU researcher, Jeff Kisseloff, in The Alger Hiss Story (The Alger Hiss Story) claims to have found some 101 errors in the Ann Coulter book Treason, with respect to Hiss. He notes that Coulter mentions two dozen spies at one point, but the corresponding documents only list thirteen. I dont feel that such an error, while it might be true, obviates the point Coulter makes.


And on the Haynes and Klehr book: On July 11, 1995 the government released decoded Soviet cables. Hiss was identified based on numerous similarities to Ales in the cables.  Here is part of an interesting defense of Hiss by John Lowenthal, a NYU (The Alger Hiss Story) claiming that  could not have been Hiss, even if we assume, for the sake of discussion, that Hiss was the spy he was in effect convicted of having been. Ales conducted espionage throughout the 11 years 1935-45 (message paragraph 1), whereas Hiss was accused, and in effect convicted, of having conducted espionage only in the mid-1930s and not later than 1938. Ales was the leader of a small group of espionage agents (par. 2); Hiss was accused of having acted alone, except for his wife as typist and Chambers as courier.

But the government case only includes the years where they felt they had the best evidence, and Hiss may simply have been the clearest target for investigation.
I commend this article and the Haynes and Klehr book on the Venona Papers as dispositive: draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Dr Grump (Jan 26, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Communists who attempted to give aid and comfort to a blood-soaked ideology?
> 
> He ruined no innocent lives.



So you believe people in the US should not be allowed to follow their own political ideology.

No innocent lives? You're kidding right?

Am I the only person to see the irony that PC is defending a guy and his ideology that is probably as close to Communism as anything that has ever been part of the American political landscape?


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Am I the only person to see the irony that PC is defending a guy and his ideology that is probably as close to Communism as anything that has ever been part of the American political landscape?



no.

Am I the only person that finds you're reference to "PC" ironic?

Political Chick has an agenda:

Believe everything Ann Coulter excretes no matter how absurd.

"NYU researcher, Jeff Kisseloff, in The Alger Hiss Story (The Alger Hiss Story) claims to have found some 101 errors in the Ann Coulter book Treason, with respect to Hiss. He notes that Coulter mentions two dozen spies at one point, but the corresponding documents only list thirteen. I dont feel that such an error, while it might be true, obviates the point Coulter makes."

I suppose PC can accept Coulter's lack of scholorship that resulted in a 50% error.

Happily, others have higher standards.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> Now, can you identify _*ONE SPY*_ that McCarthy found?



And that's the bottom line, right there.

That number?  *0*

Conservatives can try to re-write history all they want, but McCarthy earned his rightful spot as a shameless demagogue who ruthlessly trashed innocent people to  propel his own political career.  His "list" consisted of a bizarre compilations of names that were derived out of hearsay, rumors, and the most scant of evidence.   McCarthy was never interested in the American concept of justice or due process.  

My 90+ year old grandmother (who is no liberal, believe me), had an interesting theory about McCarthy's meteoric fall.  She said that television is what did him in.  According to her, prior to the Army hearings, McCarthy was principally broadcast on the radio.  People heard "Tailgunner Joe" and made him out, in their minds, to be this noble crusader against communism.  However, the Army/McCarthy hearings were broadcasts and everyone got to see McCarthy for what he was a "hissin' possum" (the words of my grandmother).  

Of course, if there were any merit to the claims that McCarthy was something more than a drunk opportunist, then the GOP would embrace him as a hero, as opposed to shunning him. 

McCarthy's fall came at a flash at an almost  Hollywood-esque dialogue from Joseph N. Welch, head council for the United States Army.



> Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us. Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale and Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think that I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.
> 
> Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. *Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?*


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 26, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



I find Senator McCarthy's illicit use of his seat in the United States Senate to name and vilify ordinary Americans with little, or scant, evidence to be extremely objectionable.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Now, can you identify _*ONE SPY*_ that McCarthy found?
> ...


 
From the bold, willowy beauty, herself:

_"Among the Soviet operatives who had been in government jobs and named by McCarthy were T.A. Bisson, Mary Jane Keeney, Cedric Belfrage, Solomon Adler, Franz Neumann, Leonard Mins, Gustavo Duran, and William Remington (later killed with a bar of soap in prison by a patriotic inmate)."_ [Ann Coulter Treason, pp 59-60]

His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



You make me sad.

First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time.

Then you use Coulter as a resource.

But I gave you both the benefit of the doubt, and briefly researched *Mary Jane Keeney.*

I admit that finding an unbias source is problematic.

In 1946 the FBI generated a:



> 335-page report on information furnished by Elizabeth Bentley (Gregory) and follow-up through FBI surveillance concerning the Silvermaster Group, (Lauchlin Currie, Harry Dexter White, etc.), the Perlo Group (Alger Hiss, etc.), and others. Discusses contacts of *Mary Jane Keeney* with Joseph Bernstein, David Wahl, Maurice Halperin, etc




From the dubious wikipedia;



> In February 1950, Senator Joseph McCarthy accused Keeney of being a member of the Communist Party, not an agent serving a foreign government. By the end of 1950, Keeney lost her position with the United Nations. She was convicted of contempt of Congress, however the decision was overturned upon appeal.



Either way, you have been duped: Mary Jane Keeny was never convicted or exposed of treason as a spy, much less by McCarthy, and her only conviction (contempt of Congress) was overturned.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...


 
Why so serious?

On page 65, Ann quotes McCarthy thusly, referencing Buckley and Bozell as the quote source: 

_"I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong. that is why I said that unless the Senate demanded that I do so, I would not submit this publicly...It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health."_

For my Wiki research subject, I chose William Remington. Now THIS should make you sad:

*William Walter Remington* (October 25, 1917 &#8211; November 24, 1954) was an economist employed in various federal government positions until his career was interrupted by accusations of espionage made by the Soviet spy and defector Elizabeth Bentley. He was convicted of perjury in connection with these charges in 1953, and murdered in prison in 1954. His death has been cited as one of the few murders attributable to McCarthyism.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Remington


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



I fascinated that both you and PC seem enamoured of the same heresay McCarthy (Coulter?) quote, where he admits he's an idiot that casts a broad net, and catches....NOTHING!

At any rate, Wiki, as I said, is a somewhat disingenuous source, but like PoliticalChick, its cheap and easy. Even it makes the point that William Remmington was being investigated long before McCarthy began his witch-hunt:



> Acting on Bentley's information, the FBI began a secret surveillance of Remington in late 1945.



McCarthy found nothing.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


 
I don't agree. He found a loyalty risk, which was exactly what he was looking for. Nothing more, nothing less. He didn't claim originality.

I wasn't aware PC quoted that bit already, but I'm fascinated that Wiki reports Remington's death as "one of the few murders attributable to McCarthyism."

OT Trivia: Which US Senator introduced a bill in 1954 that would have outlawed the Communist Party? (Hint: he was a Democrat.)


----------



## Samson (Jan 26, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Wiki isn't really a source that I expect to find the most unbias information: Thus the "one of the few murders attributable to McCarthyism." My question is what were the others? 

Well then, you think McCarthy found a "loyalty risk." So now we're reduced to playing semantical footsie? 

WTF is "_*LOYALTY RISK*_?"


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


 
A loyalty risk is a fucking commie working in the goddamn State Department.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.



This was debunked here.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Am I the only person to see the irony that PC is defending a guy and his ideology that is probably as close to Communism as anything that has ever been part of the American political landscape?



There'a great deal of irony in defending McCarthy as a "defender of democracy."  I consider the McCarthy era as being on the short list of historical periods where the Union and our Constitutional form of government nearly failed.  The others being The War of 1812, the Civil War, The Great Depression, Watergate, and 9/11.

Sometimes you get lucky.  It turned out that once TV was added into the mix people woke up and McCarthy became a historical footnote.

I'd be really curious how the defenders of McCarthy would have reacted if a Senator like Biden had decided to actively pursue, using McCarthy's tactics, Bush's connection to the Saudi Oil Empire and by connection the GOP's dangerous weakness in regards to Middle East Oil.  After all, 17 of the 19 hijackers were *Saudi*, Bin Ladin himself is *Saudi*, and yet we didn't invade Saudi Arabi or even pursue much in the way of options against Saudi Arabi.  Perhaps the Bush family oil ties has undermined US security?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Communists who attempted to give aid and comfort to a blood-soaked ideology?
> ...



Defend this accumulation of bumper sticker accusations.

If you can.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



And you, of course, exemplify exactly the kind of thougtless liberal simp that the left counts on to follow blindly, to never question, or us the kind of disbelief of any right wing exposition.

As you have here.

Since you have presented no documentation to back up what passes for a point of view, your vote has been counted, and now you may return to the rest of the herd.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



"...First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time..."

Please document or retract.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.
> ...



Let's review of this thread:
1. During the war and post-war period infatuation with Communism was on the rise.

2. The Roosevelt and Truman administrations were riddled with Communists.

3. Democrats praised and promoted Communists in government.

4. Senator Joseph McCarthy more than any other individual, exposed the extent of the menace.

5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

Again: Victims of Senator McCarthy are imaginary, and created to serve the interests of the left.

9. The arguments of the several in this thread who have attempted to destroy the good Senator are merely examples of resistance to education.

10. The good Senator exposed the folly of allowing security risks, paid Soviet agents, to remain in sensitive government positions.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Let's review of this thread:
1. During the war and post-war period infatuation with Communism was on the rise.

2. The Roosevelt and Truman administrations were riddled with Communists.

3. Democrats praised and promoted Communists in government.

4. Senator Joseph McCarthy more than any other individual, exposed the extent of the menace.

5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

Again: Victims of Senator McCarthy are imaginary, and created to serve the interests of the left.

9. The arguments of the several in this thread who have attempted to destroy the good Senator are merely examples of resistance to education.

10. The good Senator exposed the folly of allowing security risks, paid Soviet agents, to remain in sensitive government positions. 
__________________


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.
> ...


 
Thanks, DT, but I'm not sure what your link debunks. That seems to be a recounting of a trial, with Mc telling a defendent that he was planning on turning testimony over to the defendant's employer and assuming that soon thereafter they would no longer be employed. Was the defendant guilty?


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> From the bold, willowy beauty, herself:
> 
> _"Among the Soviet operatives who had been in government jobs and named by McCarthy were T.A. Bisson, Mary Jane Keeney, Cedric Belfrage, Solomon Adler, Franz Neumann, Leonard Mins, Gustavo Duran, and William Remington (later killed with a bar of soap in prison by a patriotic inmate)."_ [Ann Coulter Treason, pp 59-60]



Quoting Coulter on this is laughable.  She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy.  Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda.  ("killed by a patriotic inmate."  ?)

For all McCarthy's bluster, were their any convictions?  He abused his position to denounce ordinary Americans without sufficient evidence which resulted in tangible harm to them.  By doing so, he de facto, bypassed the rule of law and this is why he was "condemned" by a Senate vote of 67 to 22.  

If McCarthy was so integral to fighting commies, he would have been lauded and people would have been indicted and tried.



> His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.



McCarthy didn't have a gig.  Not an official one.  As a lackluster Senator, he took it upon himself to create the climate that we now refer to as "McCarthyism".  He was never appointed to the a specific investigative role, and he had no background or experience is such manners.  

He was forced to name names, because it was time to call his bluff.  That is what led to his fall from grace.


----------



## Samson (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...





LuckyDan said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



_*And here we have it folks*_: America the Free, Land of the Brave.

What about Jews working in the State Department? What about Libertarians?

How About Animalists? Hispanics?

It seems to me we can now define "Loyalty Risk" as anyone that may have an agenda different than our own.

What a good Stalinist you would have made, PoliticalChick.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



You asked a specific question and requested a specific answer.  I gave one.  You resort with an insult. 

Whose the simpleton here?


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Ironic, isn't it?


----------



## Samson (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> "...First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time..."
> 
> Please document or retract.





PoliticalChic said:


> For example NYU researcher, Jeff Kisseloff, in The Alger Hiss Story (The Alger Hiss Story) claims to have found some 101 errors in the Ann Coulter book Treason, with respect to Hiss. He notes that Coulter mentions _*two dozen spies at one point, but the corresponding documents only list thirteen*_. I dont feel that such an _error, while it might be true_.



Coulter's Error = about 50%

Babbling Idiots document 50% errors.

Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt for the balance.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

I like Occam's Razor on this matter:

If McCarthy was such a valued member of the Senate and force against communism, why has the GOP distanced itself from him over the past 60 years?  Why does the term McCarthy-ism have negative connotations?

You can either believe that McCarthy was as he is portrayed in history.

Or you can buy into the fact that some sort of evil liberal conspiracy has devoted significant time and effort into deriding McCarthy for the past 60 years.

Hell, the only person who is arguing this is Ann Coulter, and I am of the belief that she doesn't believe half the shit she prints or says; she just knows how to play to her dumb-assed audience so they will buy her books (which are basically all the same book with a different binding).

Cha-Ching!  $$$$$$$$$


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > "...First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time..."
> ...



Talk about a babbling idiot...

The claim is made by an anti-Coulter reviewer about one of thousands of statements my Ms. Coulter.

Since you and the other opponents were too inept to come up with legitimate criticism of some of my sources, I, as an intellectual exercise, provided several critiques myself.  Not only could you not find such on your own, but you have misused both the source and mathematics is a less-than-interesting display of sophistry.


And your cowardly attempt to ignore a previous post, specifically including these:

5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

has not gone unnoticed.


The obvious reason is that, unable to counter these statement, any disapproval of Senator McCarthy must fall apart as baseless.

Baseless.


So, without any valid criticism of the Senator, and judging by the Eisenhower administration and numerous Democrat and liberal anti-Communists who followed him, credit must be given to this great American hero.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> I like Occam's Razor on this matter:
> 
> If McCarthy was such a valued member of the Senate and force against communism, why has the GOP distanced itself from him over the past 60 years?  Why does the term McCarthy-ism have negative connotations?
> 
> ...



Occam's Razor suggests selecting the simplest explanation.

Of course, your lack of imagination limits the choices.

Perhaps most folks are afraid to sustain criticism. Could that be you?

And, of course:
There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong. 
H. L. Mencken, Prejudices: Second Series, 1920

"McCarthy was as he is portrayed in history..."
This is the crux.  

My OP is aimed at having you question his portrayal.

You choose not to...the ignorant often refuse an intellectual challenge.

As in these:
5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

Again: Victims of Senator McCarthy are imaginary, and created to serve the interests of the left.


So, if there are no such victims, why has the left attacked the Senator for fifty years?

Answer: he exposed them.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Even you should be ashamed to have written such a lame post.

" Jews working in the State Department? What about Libertarians?

How About Animalists? Hispanics?

It seems to me we can now define "Loyalty Risk" as anyone that may have an agenda different than our own."


Let us question a random sample of folks and see how many agree with your definition of 'loyalty risk."

Since you are unaware of the meaning of loyalty risk, which is more correctly stated as security risk, it is no wonder you are unable to produce a cogent response. 

I suggest that paid agents of the former Soviet Union fall under a different heading than the example you came up with.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Quick reply:

McCarthy's investigation in no way whatsoever consitutes a trial.

Second, the person McCarthy is threatening was a teacher, not a Federal employee.  There's no security risk.

Third:  McCarthy blatantly attempts to criminalize the 5th ammendment there.

So no, McCarthy did not limit himself to just security risks, and yes, McCarthy did set out to ruin lives.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



Name them.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Name them.



Read the article.

By the way, it is curious that you've left this post hanging.  From your own link Ms. Moss was suspended from her job from 1951 to 1954.  While not necessarily being ruined, being suspended for an extended period of time for an accusation that McCarthy could not prove is certainly damaging.

I also want to mention this quote from you:



			
				Political Chic said:
			
		

> Had it not been for heros such as McCarthy, whose campaign the American public understood and supported, there would never have been a push-back against Communism by such anti-Communists as Eleanor Roosevelt, Arthur Schlesinger,jr, Walter Reuther, Hubert Humphrey, and others- none of whom supported McCarthy.



*As you yourself point out* McCarthy also enabled the environment that brought such damaging things as the Hollywood Blacklist and the blacklists in academia and industry, not to mention the HUAC.  Those things most certainly did harm people and ruin lives.

McCarthy must take the blame for the actions he himself helped set in motion.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Name them.
> ...


 
Annie Lee Moss worked in the code room at the Pentagon. She was a member of the Communist Party. McCarthy's efforts got her out of the code room. 

He put no one in prison. He ruined no lives. Members of the CPUSA were too weasely to stand up and say "I am a Communist," so they perjured themselves instead, and that was why some of them did time. Why they wouldn't admit it, I still don't understand. 

HUAC was up and running long before Mc was ever a Senator. Hollywood producers created the blacklist. You wanna cry for them, enjoy.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Annie Lee Moss worked in the code room at the Pentagon. She *was* a member of the Communist Party. McCarthy's efforts got her out of the code room.



Was being the operative word.  No one yet in this thread, and certainly not McCarthy himself, provided proof that she was a "card carrying Communist" at the time of her employment in the Army.  In fact, the most likely scenario is that she was only ever loosely affiliated with, and only prior to her employment.

And PC herself agrees that McCarthy helped embolden and make possible many of the things that happened during this period.  As such, he gets to take a share of the blame.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> 8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.



BTW: 



			
				Raymond Kaplan said:
			
		

> You see, once the dogs are set on you everything you have done since the beginning of time is suspect... I have never done anything that I consider wrong but I can't take the pressure upon my shoulders any more.



This was in a note written by Kaplan shortly before he ended up getting killed by stepping in front of a truck.  Kaplan was about to be called before McCarthy's committee.  McCarthy himself admitted he had no evidence of wrong doing by Kaplan.

It has become fashionable among Conservatives that are looking to sell books to claim that Kaplan "accidently" stepped in front of a truck after writing this, or that he was murdered because of what he knew.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > 8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.
> ...



Had you been informed on the topic, or even taken the time to read the thread, you would have learned that Kaplan was a friendly witness, on McCarthy's side of the VOA investigation.

There is no evidence that a single person committed suicide because of McCarthy.

Often, Raymond Kaplan is claimed to have committed suicide in fear of McCarthy, as a result of a note he left before leaping in front of a truck: When the dogs are set upon you, everything you have done from the beginning of your life is suspect. But, who are the dogs?

 One of McCarthy's first investigations concerned the Voice of America (VOA) and why one of its transmitters had been placed in such a way as to minimize its effectiveness in reaching the enslaved people behind the Iron Curtain.

An employee with the VOA  Raymond Kaplan  died when hit by a truck the day before he was set to testify in the probe. McCarthy Part 4--Annie Lee Moss, VOA, and history insulted

Kaplan was expected to be a friendly committee witness, eager to tell McCarthy of his frustration that some with whom he worked had placed a Voice of America transmitter in such a way as to prevent VOA from reaching the freedom-loving people behind the Iron Curtain, thus rendering it useless. Coulter's Book and Senate Transcripts Prove Feds' Treason

Since Kaplan was opposed to the placement of the transmitters as useless, he was happy to testify. Kaplan was involved in a rancorous battle with VOA, not with McCarthy. 


So, I guess this represents a total absolute and unmitigated loss for you.

Get up and keep swingin'.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



First let me wipe away that tear.

That better?

Now then, back to the fray:
"... illicit use of his seat ..."

It would make you appear brighter if you restricted your posts to words that you can define.

Illicit:
1. Not sanctioned by custom or law; unlawful.
2. Linguistics Improperly formed; ungrammatical.


The Senator was protecting the American people from the influence of paid and controlled Soviet agents, spies who reported to the Kremlin.

Therefore you are in extreme error in your statement.

Unless you are stating that he was ungrammatical in his speech...


"...I find Senator McCarthy's illicit use of his seat in the United States Senate to name and vilify ordinary Americans with little, or scant, evidence to be extremely objectionable."

I fear that you also don't understand the word 'question,' as that is a talking point not a question.

State exactly what he did that was in error, and name the individual that he harmed and in what way that individual was materially harmed: in other words, beyond hurt feeling, such as you evinced.

Let's do this right!


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> So, I guess this represents a total absolute and unmitigated loss for you.



Sure.  People leave notes like this all the time right before they get hit by a truck after walking out in traffic.  And the fact he was about to go before McCarthy's committee has absolutely nothing at all to do with it.  Nothing at all.

I repeat:



			
				Dr. Traveler said:
			
		

> It has become fashionable among Conservatives that are looking to sell books to claim that Kaplan "accidently" stepped in front of a truck after writing this, or that he was murdered because of what he knew.



I'm happy to leave this one to the folks reading this thread to decide.  I'm familiar with this case enough to know that it was clear to those who Ray worked for that it was suicide, but that since it has become popular for Conservatives to trot out heresay evidence that Kaplan was actually excited about being badgered by McCarthy under oath.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > From the bold, willowy beauty, herself:
> ...



"...were their any convictions..."

I beg you, try, to the best of your ability, on tippy toes, to inform yourself on the topic before you post!

Prosecutor: a government official who conducts criminal prosecutions on behalf of the state 


Senator:a member of the legislative body known as the senate . See Article I of the Constitution.

The SENATOR's goal was to show how lax the government was when it came to Communists.

Not prosecute. Not obtain convictions.

President Eisenhower directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF.

Educate yourself as to further steps taken by Eisenhower to protect the nation. From Time Magazine:

" Executive Order 10450, issued by the President on April 27, 1953, establishing broad new security standards for federal employment. Critics say that Ten-Four-Fifty results in a cold reign of terror among Government workers, that no man is safe from his neighbor's malice. Defenders say that Order 10450 is necessary to protect the U.S. from the infiltration of its Government by enemies. 

EXECUTIVE Order 10450 requires that the hiring and continued employment of federal workers must, in the judgment of department and agency heads, be "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security. The order recognizes that an employee may be loyal, yet still be a security risk. The homosexual may be easy prey to blackmail. The person with relatives behind the Iron Curtain may be exposed to overwhelming pressures. The alcoholic may unintentionally blab secrets. 

But the system does notand cannotadhere strictly to judicial principles, with the "defendant" presumed innocent until proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. For guilt in the legal sense is not involved. The idea is not to wait until the drunken employee gives away an important secret; it is to get rid of him beforehand. 
Read more: National Affairs: THE MEANING OF SECURITY - TIME


Do you not understand "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security' ?  Or are you a Democrat?


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> EXECUTIVE Order 10450 requires that the hiring and continued employment of federal workers must, in the judgment of department and agency heads, be "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security. The order recognizes that an employee may be loyal, yet still be a security risk. The homosexual may be easy prey to blackmail. The person with relatives behind the Iron Curtain may be exposed to overwhelming pressures. The alcoholic may unintentionally blab secrets.
> 
> But the system does notand cannotadhere strictly to judicial principles, with the "defendant" presumed innocent until proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. For guilt in the legal sense is not involved. The idea is not to wait until the drunken employee gives away an important secret; it is to get rid of him beforehand. 
> Read more: National Affairs: THE MEANING OF SECURITY - TIME



Isn't it ironic that McCarthy himself wouldn't have qualified for Federal employment.  McCarthy was forced to settle a libel case against him that alleged he was a homosexual after realizing he'd have had to face questions *under oath* about his sexual proclivities, not to mention he died from complications from alcoholism.

It is also unfortunate, that as documented already, McCarthy did not limit himself to investigating security risks.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > So, I guess this represents a total absolute and unmitigated loss for you.
> ...



Did you try to miss the point?

You must have stopped reading the post before this:
"Kaplan was expected to be a friendly committee witness, eager to tell McCarthy of his frustration that some with whom he worked had placed a Voice of America transmitter in such a way as to prevent VOA from reaching the freedom-loving people behind the Iron Curtain, thus rendering it useless.


McCarthy knew that Communist influence in the government was aimed at crippling any foreign policy initiative that worked to the Soviets' detriment.

Such as Lattimore's advice that we should not back Chang Kai Shek, thus allowing Mao to murder 70 million Chinese. In this case, Soviet sympathizers in the VOA wanted to place transmitters in areas that would prevent the mesages of freedom from reaching into Eastern Europe.

Still with me?

Kaplan was fighting with the powers at VOA who were instrumental in placing the transmitters. 

He was siding with McCarthy, not in fear of McCarthy.


"Ritchie e-mailed me in 2003 when I reported in NewsMax his failure to give equal billing to testimony that Kaplan was expected to be a friendly witness before McCarthy's panel, eager to tell the senator of his frustration that some with whom he worked had blundered in placement of the transmitter."
Blacklisted by History: McCarthy Part 4, Thursday, November 15, 2007, By Wes Vernon


Get it now?

"...it was clear to those who Ray worked for that it was suicide,..." But not clear as to who was the threat in Kaplan's life.


Wise up.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> Quoting Coulter on this is laughable.  She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy.  Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda.  ("killed by a patriotic inmate."  ?)



Any serious reading of Coulter reveals that This book has a deeper rooting in reality than her entire body of work.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > EXECUTIVE Order 10450 requires that the hiring and continued employment of federal workers must, in the judgment of department and agency heads, be "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security. The order recognizes that an employee may be loyal, yet still be a security risk. The homosexual may be easy prey to blackmail. The person with relatives behind the Iron Curtain may be exposed to overwhelming pressures. The alcoholic may unintentionally blab secrets.
> ...



What is ironic is that "liberals" who are so concerned with the rights of homosexuals, use the term as some kind of insult agaist folks like McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> He was siding with McCarthy, not in fear of McCarthy.



Sure he was.  That was why he left a note saying this:



> You see, once the dogs are set on you everything you have done since the beginning of time is suspect... I have never done anything that I consider wrong but I can't take the pressure upon my shoulders any more.



...and ended up stepping in front of a truck right before he could go and face McCarthy and his badgering under oath.

As I said, I am more than willing to let Ray Kaplan speak for himself here.  Let the folks reading the thread decide why a "willing" witness for McCarthy would leave a note like that.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> What is ironic is that "liberals" who are so concerned with the rights of homosexuals, use the term as some kind of insult agaist folks like McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.



No issue with it here.  McCarthy is free to do as he likes.

I just find it ironic how often Republicans that persecute homosexuals turn out to have a few skeletons in their closet.  Projection and self loathing seem to be a common theme.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > Quoting Coulter on this is laughable.  She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy.  Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda.  ("killed by a patriotic inmate."  ?)
> ...



Just curious, which of Ms. Coulter's best sellers have you read?

Or do you take the MSNBC approach to knowledge?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > What is ironic is that "liberals" who are so concerned with the rights of homosexuals, use the term as some kind of insult agaist folks like McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.
> ...



" Projection and self loathing seem to be a common theme."

Psychobabble.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > Quoting Coulter on this is laughable.  She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy.  Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda.  ("killed by a patriotic inmate."  ?)
> ...



Well, DC does stand for 'Detective Comics' after all.

Had McCarthy contented himself with investigating and removing threats to US intelligence and military security from government agencies involved in same, then that would have been one thing. A proper course of action for a US senator. However by attempting to use the investigations to further his political career he allowed a hydra to emerge which could have had disastrous consequences. His methods did spawn a period of hysteria and the backlash from his actions certainly produced a surge of relativisism which has led to allowing Islamic worshippers into the US military at a time when we are actively fighting Islamic terrorists. 

In short, while we do need ot be wary of enemy agents infiltrating our government, intelligence agencies, and military, Joseph McCarthy went about it in a reprehensible manner; similar to the tactics of PC he follwed the teachings of Joseph Goebbels in propogating a *Big Lie.*


----------



## Samson (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Your definition of Great American Hero:

A US Senator that didn't ruin anyone's life.

Well, I suppose if you cannot defend him, you may as well lower your standards.

Next up: Senator Edward Kennedy, a Great American Hero!!!

PoliticalChick, you leave us with only one question:

Whether to laugh or cry?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



"...you leave us with only one question..."

Only three kinds of folks can use 'we' when referring to himself:
1. Royalty

2. Editors of newspapers

3. Someone with a tapeworm


Best wishes for an improvement in your health.


----------



## Samson (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Well, _*I*_ think _*YOU*_ are a "Great American Hero!"


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Occam's Razor suggests selecting the simplest explanation.



No shit.  



> Of course, your lack of imagination limits the choices.



Occam's Razor would negate the need for much imagination.



> Perhaps most folks are afraid to sustain criticism. Could that be you?



Not from you.



> And, of course:
> There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong.
> H. L. Mencken, Prejudices: Second Series, 1920



Contributes zilch to the thread.



> "McCarthy was as he is portrayed in history..."
> This is the crux.



No, it's the end point for those of us who don't need to re-write history.  



> My OP is aimed at having you question his portrayal.



No, your OP is aimed at beating everyone who doesn't agree with your (and Ann Coulter's) opinions about the head and neck with your typical lame, pseudo-intellectual, babble.



> You choose not to...the ignorant often refuse an intellectual challenge.



There is no challenge.  You are entitled to your opinion of McCarthy, it just doesn't square with history.



> As in these:
> 5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.



How in the hell can you say that?  You've spoken to everyone McCarthy outed to see what the ramifications were?  I suspect this all turns on your definition of "innocent".  

As I posted earlier, Joseph Welch disagreed with your sentiments during the McCarthy Army hearings:



> Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us. *Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale and Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you.* If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think that I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.





> 6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.



Did anyone spend time in prison as a result of McCarthy's work?  If not, then that point is meaningless.



> 7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.



Not directly.  No one ever claimed McCarthy maintained "black listing" power.  The power he had was to accuse the innocent and cause others to black list them.



> 8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.
> 
> Again: Victims of Senator McCarthy are imaginary, and created to serve the interests of the left.



Victims of McCarthyism



> So, if there are no such victims, why has the left attacked the Senator for fifty years?
> 
> Answer: he exposed them.



That's the most convoluted logic I've seen from you yet.

First, it's not "the left" that attacks McCarthy.  It's most of America.  Only you right-wing whackadoodles see the need to defend the man and his witch hunts.

Secondly, a lot of people have faced continued attack over the past 50-60 years.  Does the very fact that they are attacked acquit them? 

Completely idiotic.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

Charles Stucker said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



"...use the investigations to further his political career ..."
This is one of those myths spread by the left as an indication of McCarthy's misjudgement of the people and the times.

1. The Hollywood Ten were called before the HUAC in 1947. This had nothing to do with Senator McCarthy; he had just been elected to the Senate, and the Alger Hiss exposure, indictment and conviction occurred before McCarthy made his famous 1950 speech in Wheeling, West Virginia, before McCarthy did any investigating of Hollywood. 

2. It was the Democrats response to the conviction of paid Soviet agent Alger Hiss that motivated McCarthy, not some desire for aggrandizement.  

President Roosevelt laughed off the charges against Hiss.  Dean Acheson, then undersecretary of Treasury, not only vouched for Hiss and his brother, Donald, also charged by Whitaker, but Acheson immediately requested Donald as his assistant. 

Right on cue, the press vilified HUAC for persecuting Hiss. President Truman denounced the Hiss investigation as a red herring by do-nothing Republicans (Whitaker Chambers, _Witness_, p. 564-74) 

Felix Frankfurter and Adlai Stevenson offered to be character witnesses for Hiss. (McCarthy began referring to Stevenson as Alger Stevenson.)  Eleanor Roosevelt said she believed Hiss.  But the American public listened to the hearings, and they believed Chambers: a Gallup poll found 4 out of 5 supported the HUAC.(Alan Weinstein, _Perjury_, p. 58) And the poll included 71% of Democrats who also agreed- just not the Democrat Party!

3. Based on the reaction of the press to HUAC, are you positing that McCarthy thought that his anti-Communist campaign would be a resume enhancement???


"...it in a reprehensible manner..." 
Can you document that, or is it something you heard in the schoolyard?


Check out this partial list of Soviet agents:
Alexander Koral, former engineer of the municipality of New York. 
Helen Koral, Bergs wife, housewife. 
Byron T. Darling, engineer for the Rubber Company. [1][2] 
A. A. Yatskov 
George Blake, United Kingdom SIS officer who betrayed existence of the Berlin Tunnel under the Soviet sector and who probably betrayed Popov. 
Felix Bloch, U.S. State Department economic officer. Robert Hanssen warned Soviets about the investigation into his activities [3] [2] 
Christopher John Boyce and Daulton Lee, American walk-in spy for the Soviet Union, known as the Falcon and the Snowman. 
[edit] Buben group
Louis F. Budenz, former member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party USA, former editor of the newspaper Daily Worker, professor at Fordham University. 
Robert Menaker, commercial traveler (traveling salesman) to a variety of trade firms 
Salmond Franklin, without specific assignments, husband of Rita. Used as a signaler [Russian: sviazist = communications man] 
Sylvia Caldwell, technical secretary for a Trotskyist group in New York City. 
Lona Cohen, sentenced to 20 years; subject of Hugh Whitemore's drama for stage and TV Pack of Lies 
Morris Cohen sentenced to 25 years; subject of Hugh Whitemore's drama for stage and TV Pack of Lies 
Judith Coplon, NKGB counter-intelligence operative in the U.S. Department of Justice; two convictions overturned on technicalities 
Eugene Dennis, senior member of the Communist Party USA leadership, sentenced to 5 years for advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government 
Samuel Dickstein, Congressman from New York, Vice Chairman of HUAC during hearings into the Business Plot against President Franklin D. Roosevelt 
Mark Gayn, journalist, The Washington Post; Amerasia case 
Dieter Gerhardt, South African Navy Commodore who was convicted of spying for the Soviet Union; alleged that the Vela Incident was a joint Israeli-South African nuclear test after being released in 1994 and emigrating to Switzerland 
Ben-Zion Goldberg (Benjamin Waife), journalist, contributor to Toronto Star, Saint Louis Dispatch, New York Post, Today, and The New Republic [4] 
Theodore Hall, physicist who supplied information from Los Alamos during World War II, a NYC walk-in, never prosecuted 
Robert P. Hanssen, Federal Bureau of Investigation agent convicted of spying for the Soviet Union, betrayed tunnel under new Mt Alto Soviet Embassy in Washington DC; may have done most damage since Philby 
Reino Häyhänen, Finn who worked in the US as a Soviet spy directed by Rudolf Abel, used the VIC cypher, defected to the US [3] 
Edward Lee Howard, ex-Central Intelligence Agency officer who sold info and escaped to Soviet Union in 1985 
V. J. Jerome, sentenced to three years for advocating overthrow of U.S. government 
Martin Kamen, Radiation Laboratory at the University of California, Berkeley, Manhattan Project 
Walter Krivitsky 
Giovanni Rossi Lomanitz, Berkeley Radiation Laboratory 
Clayton J. Lonetree, U.S. Marine Embassy guard Sergeant suborned by female KGB agent ('Violetta Sanni') in Moscow, turned himself in to authorities in December 1986, convicted 1987 
Jay Lovestone 
Carl Marzani, Deputy Chief Photographic Presentation Branch Office of Strategic Services; United States Department of State 
Alan Nunn May, physicist who supplied information about the British and American atomic bomb research to the Soviet Union 
Kate Mitchell 
[edit] Mocase
Boris Morros, Hollywood producer 
Jack Soble, sentenced to 7 years, brother of Robert Soblen 
Myra Soble, sentenced to 5½ years 
Robert Soblen, sentenced to life for spying at Sandia Lab, etc., but escaped to Israel, then committed suicide 
Jane Zlatovski 
Mark Zborowski 
[edit] Perlo group
Victor Perlo, was the Chief of the Aviation Section of the War Production Board during World War II; head of branch in Research Section, Office of Price Administration Department of Commerce; Division of Monetary Research Department of the Treasury; and later the Brookings Institution 
Harold Glasser, Director, Division of Monetary Research, United States Department of the Treasury; United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration; War Production Board; Advisor on North African Affairs Committee; United States Treasury Representative to the Allied High Commission in Italy 
Alger Hiss, Director of the Office of Special Political Affairs United States Department of State 
Charles Kramer, Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Price Administration; National Labor Relations Board; Senate Subcommittee on Wartime Health and Education; Agricultural Adjustment Administration; Senate Subcommittee on Civil Liberties; Senate Labor and Public Welfare Committee; Democratic National Committee 
Harry Magdoff, Statistical Division of War Production Board and Office of Emergency Management; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; Tools Division, War Production Board; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, United States Department of Commerce 
George Perazich, Foreign Economic Administration; United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration 
Allen Rosenberg, Board of Economic Warfare; Chief of the Economic Institution Staff, Foreign Economic Administration; Senate Subcommittee on Civil Liberties; Senate Committee on Education and Labor; Railroad Retirement Board; Counsel to the Secretary of the National Labor Relations Board 
Donald Wheeler, Office of Strategic Services Research and Analysis division 
[edit] Redhead group
Hedwiga Gompertz, Waceks wife, sent to the U.S. in 1938 to carry out fieldwork assignments, defected in 1948 
Paul Massing, scientist at Columbia Universitys Institute of Social Research. Defected. 
Laurence Duggan (aka 19th), former employee of the State Department. Suicide. 
Franz Leopold Neumann, former consultant in the Department of Research and Analysis of the OSS 
Rudolf Roessler chief of the very successful, and very odd, Lucy spy ring of World War II 
[edit] Rosenberg ring
Joel Barr, met Julius Rosenberg at City CoIIege of New York, then spied with him and Al Sarant at Army Signal Corps lab in New Jersey; escaped prosecution by fleeing to Soviet bloc in 1950. Died 2007. 
Max Elitcher, longtime friend of Rosenberg and Sobell from their days at CCNY before testifying against them 
Klaus Fuchs, physicist who supplied information about the British and American atomic bomb research to the Soviet Union; sentenced to 14 years in the UK. 
Vivian Glassman, fiancée of Joel Barr [4] 
Harry Gold, courier sentenced to 30 years 
David Greenglass, draftsman at Los Alamos in World War Two, gave atomic bomb drawings to his sister Ethel Rosenberg, and eventually the Soviets; sentenced to 15 years 
Ruth Greenglass, escaped prosecution in exchange for her husband's testimony against his sister and brother-in-law, the Rosenbergs 
Miriam Moskowitz, convicted for assisting Brothman [5] 
William Perl, active in Young Communist League at CCNY, then met Al Sarant at Columbia University; served 5 years for perjury 
Morton Sobell, involved with Barr, Perl and Julius Rosenberg at CCNY; sentenced to 30 years at Alcatraz 
Ethel Rosenberg, executed at Sing Sing prison near her native New York City for conspiracy to commit espionage 
Julius Rosenberg, executed at Sing Sing prison near his native New York City for conspiracy to commit espionage 
Al Sarant, stole radar secrets at Army Signal Corps lab in New Jersey, then he and his mistress abandoned their families for the protection of his Soviet masters in 1950 
Andrew Roth, Office of Naval Intelligence liaison officer with United States Department of State 
Saville Sax college friend of Theodore Hall assisted with Hall's disclosure to the Soviets of Los Alamos research and development [5] [6] 
[edit] Silvermaster group
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, Chief Planning Technician, Procurement Division, United States Department of the Treasury; Chief Economist, War Assets Administration; Director of the Labor Division, Farm Security Administration; Board of Economic Warfare; Reconstruction Finance Corporation Department of Commerce 
Helen Silvermaster (wife) 
Schlomer Adler, United States Department of the Treasury 
Norman Chandler Bursler, United States Department of Justice Anti-Trust Division [6] 
Frank Coe, Assistant Director, Division of Monetary Research, Treasury Department; Special Assistant to the United States Ambassador in London; Assistant to the Executive Director, Board of Economic Warfare; Assistant Administrator, Foreign Economic Administration 
Lauchlin Currie, Administrative Assistant to President Roosevelt; Deputy Administrator of Foreign Economic Administration; Special Representative to China 
Bela Gold, Assistant Head of Program Surveys, Bureau of Agricultural Economics, Agriculture Department; Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Economic Programs in Foreign Economic Administration 
Sonia Steinman Gold, Division of Monetary Research U.S. Treasury Department; U.S. House of Representatives Select Committee on Interstate Migration; U.S. Bureau of Employment Security 
Irving Kaplan, Foreign Funds Control and Division of Monetary Research, United States Department of the Treasury Foreign Economic Administration; chief advisor to the Military Government of Germany 
George Silverman, civilian Chief Production Specialist, Material Division, United States Army Air Forces Air Staff, War Department, Pentagon 
William Henry Taylor, Assistant Director of the Middle East Division of Monetary Research, United States Department of Treasury 
William Ullman, delegate to United Nations Charter meeting and Bretton Woods conference; Division of Monetary Research, Department of Treasury; Material and Services Division, Air Corps Headquarters, Pentagon 
Anatole Volkov 
Harry Dexter White, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury; Head of the International Monetary Fund 
[edit] Sound and Myrna groups

Solomon Adler, United States Department of the Treasury 
Cedric Belfrage, journalist; British Security Coordination 
Elizabeth Bentley courier messenger for Communist spy rings on the American East Coast in the 30s, testified about her activities in hearings in the 40s and 50s 
Frank Coe, Assistant Director, Division of Monetary Research, Treasury Department; Special Assistant to the United States Ambassador in London; Assistant to the Executive Director, Board of Economic Warfare; Assistant Administrator, Foreign Economic Administration 
Lauchlin Currie, Administrative Assistant to President Roosevelt; Deputy Administrator of Foreign Economic Administration; Special Representative to China 
Rae Elson, an active Communist, and courier of the CPUSA underground, was chosen by Joseph Katz to replace Bentley at the Soviet front organization, U.S. Shipping and Service Corporation. 
Frederick V. Field, Executive Secretary American Peace Mobilization 
Edward Fitzgerald, War Production Board 
Charles Flato, Board of Economic Warfare; Civil Liberties Subcommittee, Senate Committee on Education and Labor 
Eva Getzov, Jewish Welfare Board [7] 
Bela Gold, Bureau of Intelligence, Assistant Head of Program Surveys, Bureau of Agricultural Economics, Agriculture Department; Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Economic Programs in Foreign Economic Administration 
Sonia Steinman Gold, Division of Monetary Research U.S. Treasury Department; U.S. House of Representatives Select Committee on Interstate Migration; U.S. Bureau of Employment Security 
Irving Goldman, Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs 
Jacob Golos, the "main pillar" of the NKVD intelligence network in the U.S., died in the arms of comrade Elizabeth Bentley 
Gerald Graze, United States Civil Service Commission; Department of Defense, U.S. Navy official 
Stanley Graze, United States Department of State intelligence 
Michael Greenberg, Board of Economic Warfare; Administrative Division, Enemy Branch, Foreign Economic Administration; United States Department of State 
Joseph Gregg, Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs; United States Department of State 
Maurice Halperin, Chief of Latin American Division, Research and Analysis section, Office of Strategic Services; United States Department of State 
Julius Joseph, Far Eastern section (Japanese Intelligence) Office of Strategic Services 
Irving Kaplan, United States Department of the Treasury Foreign Economic Administration; United Nations Division of Economic Stability and Development; Chief Advisor to the Military Government of Germany 
List of Soviet agents in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are more.

How many did you find in Detective Comics?


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> First let me wipe away that tear.
> 
> That better?



Don't ask a question if you aren't ready to hear an answer.  

I snipped the rest of your post.  I addressed your questions, and feel little need to indulge you in your penchant to play english professor on a message board.

You seem to revert to that role when backed into a corner.  

If you weren't so damned predictable, it would almost be cute.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Occam's Razor suggests selecting the simplest explanation.
> ...



"...pseudo-intellectual, babble..."
I understand why you might believe that. Best of luck with your education.

Lattimore? He was your example of a 'VICTIM'?
Lattimore was found to be a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) As far as his life being ruined, When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave with pay. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes. Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129"
	Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek  then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
	Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore  within the Politburo of the Communist Party  "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
	A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
	On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations


Would you care to retract?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > First let me wipe away that tear.
> ...



"...backed into a corner..."  
Do you see a lot of back-tracking?  Obfuscation?  Denial of the OP? 

Be serious.


"...it would almost be cute..."

Bet you say that to all the girls.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> "...were their any convictions..."



Oh!  You got me Ms. Grammar Cop!  Can I just pay my grammar ticket now and avoid a lengthy and annoying trip to Grammar court?



> I beg you, try, to the best of your ability, on tippy toes, to inform yourself on the topic before you post!
> 
> Prosecutor: a government official who conducts criminal prosecutions on behalf of the state
> 
> ...



Yeah, and again, no shit.  I would think that a matter of such grave national importance would yield co-operation with the DOJ or some sort of law enforcement body.  Hell, Hoover was there and he was always more than happy to go after dirty commies!

You can't have it both ways.  Either McCarthy's work was of the upmost importance and resulted in prosecution or he was blowing smoke.  

So which one is it?



> Educate yourself as to further steps taken by Eisenhower to protect the nation.



Eisenhower showed his yellow streak by being bullied by McCarthy.  It was one of his greatest failings.

Eisenhower finally had enough (and grew some backbone) when McCarthy went after the Army.  It was in '54, during the Eisenhower Administration, when the Army's top lawyer showed McCarthy for the buffoon that he was.  

Again, you can't have it both ways.  Either Ike was on board with McCarthy or not.   



> Do you not understand "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security' ?  Or are you a Democrat?



Your opinion on "national security" is meaningless to me, especially after our last "conservative" President was shown to be completely inept at it.

Though, I'll bet you supported Iraq out of concern for national security, didn't you?

I'll take that as a yes, and retort with you don't know a fucking thing about national security.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> "...pseudo-intellectual, babble..."
> I understand why you might believe that. Best of luck with your education.



Thanks for your well wishes.  Unlike you, I choose to further my education in a field that has utility beyond an internet message board.  



> Lattimore? He was your example of a 'VICTIM'?
> Lattimore was found to be a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) As far as his life being ruined, When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave with pay. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes. Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129"
> 	Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek  then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
> 	Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore  within the Politburo of the Communist Party  "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
> ...



Not at all.  If Lattimer was guilty of such heinous crimes, why wasn't he charged?

You know, the whole "due process" thing that is so inherently American.

As for the damage inflicted by McCarthy's witch hunts, you are not at latitude to claim no one was damaged.  People don't have to be flogged on the public square to have damages.  Damage to reputation, as noted by the Army's Chief Council, is more than sufficient and wholly improper for a Senator to inflict upon regular Americans.  

Talk about your abuses of power.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> "...backed into a corner..."
> Do you see a lot of back-tracking?  Obfuscation?  Denial of the OP?
> 
> Be serious.



I am trying to keep a straight face at this point based on the complete crap you have introduced into this thread as "support" for your position.  

I did appreciate the Mencken quote though.  I didn't really see how it was germane to the topic at hand, but I know you like to try and impress us all with your big brain.   



> "...it would almost be cute..."
> 
> Bet you say that to all the girls.



You're a girl?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > "...pseudo-intellectual, babble..."
> ...



1. You fail to admit that the Senator was not a prosecutor.  His job was to expose, not prosecute.

2. Lattimore was a supposed expert on Asia, a position that allowed him to influence American foreign policy, and a reason why Chang Kai Shek was thrown under the bus.

And why 70 million Chinese were murdered and why we face many of the problems with China today.

3. Lattimore not being prosecuted is exactly proof of the sentiments of McCarthy, the laxity toward security risks, even when exposed.

Senator Tydings  as with so many cases in his alleged "investigation" of McCarthy's charges  did a real whitewash on Lattimore, proclaiming, "There is nothing in that file to show that you were a Communist or ever had been a Communist, or that you were in any way connected with any espionage information or charges, so that the FBI file puts you completely, up to this moment, in the clear."

The ever-intrepid Evans (M. Stanton Evans, author of _Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his fight Against America's Enemies_,)  has produced a memo from Lou Nichols of the FBI saying he couldn't understand what had come over Tydings  that the Maryland Democrat knew very well that Director Hoover had said that if he had been on the Loyalty Board, he would have questioned any attempt to clear Lattimore, and that he regarded the IPR icon as a security risk and would never have hired him at the Bureau.


Starting to change your mind?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 27, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > "...backed into a corner..."
> ...



Sorry- I gave you too much credit. I thought you'd understand the Mencken quote as a response to Occam's Razor.  

Think about it.

Since I have been able to answer each and every point you have attempted to make, and have used documentation, your post comes across as insipid.

And, the theme of this thread: as you and those of your ilk have been unable to identify any 'victims,' and I have shown spies and security risks identified by the Senator, it seems as though you fall into that category so clearly identified by Lenin:

"In political jargon, the term useful idiot was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in western countries and the attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question naïvely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and being cynically used.

The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, hostile government, or business, whether or not the group is Communist in nature."

Useful idiot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Ravi (Jan 27, 2010)

I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, but I must say that the success of the BIG LIE is that people like PC think McCarthy was some kind of hero for demonizing people with political beliefs different than his.

IMO, people like McCarthy are un-American fascists.

And I don't even agree with the Communist, Marxist and certainly not the Stalinist viewpoint.

That is all.


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 27, 2010)

Ravi said:


> I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, but I must say that the success of the BIG LIE is that people like PC think McCarthy was some kind of hero for demonizing people with political beliefs different than his.
> 
> IMO, people like McCarthy are un-American fascists.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think he really cared what their political beliefs were, so long as they weren't Stalin loyalists working for the federal government. You love Uncle Joe? Great! But get the hell outta the war room.


----------



## Ravi (Jan 27, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, but I must say that the success of the BIG LIE is that people like PC think McCarthy was some kind of hero for demonizing people with political beliefs different than his.
> ...


Which of those he accused turned out to be Stalin loyalists?

There is a vast difference between one spy and mass hysteria. A difference similar to invading a country because they shared, however loosely, a religion with some fucktard terrorists.

But you know...McCarthyism is a good example of why profiling doesn't work.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jan 27, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Communists who attempted to give aid and comfort to a blood-soaked ideology?
> ...


When one's political ideology interferes with my right to be unmolested by it, yes.

And the problem with politics is that only one style can rule any nation, not a plurality.  But in this world in which travel is easy, you can find the government and politics you desire and emigrate.


----------



## PixieStix (Jan 27, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Yesterday there was an excellent thread on the Ukrainian holocaust.
> 
> Today is the anniversary of the sentencing of Alger Hiss. Most folks dont remember him, but most Americans have been fed the lie that the real enemy of America during WW II and the post-war era was Senator Joseph McCarthy. The Big Lie.
> 
> ...




Oh, I agree, completely. Have thought the same thing for a very long time, even though the public school system tried to indoctrinate me with lies and half truths. Didn't take on me. I am too curious and way too skeptical


----------



## Big Fitz (Jan 27, 2010)

> If McCarthy was such a valued member of the Senate and force against communism, why has the GOP distanced itself from him over the past 60 years? Why does the term McCarthy-ism have negative connotations?



1.  Because the Rockafeller Republicans did not care about patriotism, any more than they care about anything but maintaining their own power.  

2. McCarthy was an ideologue, and one thing a craven elitist rent seeker like those RINOs want is to stay away from anything controversial that may upset their chance at re-election.  It's all about them.

3. 60 years of constant leftist asymmetrical media warfare against McCarthy for when he effectively 'jumped the shark' with the hearings have created a false history.

4. His death, shortly after leaving office allowed the media who hated him with a purple passion to write the epitaph, and distort his life any way they saw fit.



> Or you can buy into the fact that some sort of evil liberal conspiracy has devoted significant time and effort into deriding McCarthy for the past 60 years.



A conspiracy of small minds and bigger lies, justified by the ends has always been the tactic of the left.  There are people who still believe Sacco and Vanzetti, the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss are innocent little lambs cruelly persecuted by the mean ole' government.  

Historical revisionism is rampant, particularly by the left, because they know that to control the historical record is to control the minds of a people.  Book banning, burning, editing, selective omission, yellow dog journalism, contextual shading and out and out bullshit is seen world wide, and the Americans who subscribe to this point of view are not above any of these tactics either.

"Beware those who wish to control your information, for in their minds, they view themselves your master."  (Chairman Lal, Sid Meier's 'Alpha Centauri')


----------



## LuckyDan (Jan 27, 2010)

Ravi said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


 
Names I posted last night. 

The term _Stalin loyalist_ is mine, Ravi. To be fair to the Senator - and I know that's what we all want here - I should have said _loyalty risk_, or _security risk_. Still, I would say any member of CPUSA in the 40s and 50s was a risk for a federal job, and very probably a Stalin loyalist. 

I used the term in response to your post saying that Joe didn't like people with different political views. I doubt he would have given a rat's ass about a Stalinist working at the corner liquor store.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> There are more.


I looked at the link given earlier, did you?
The one that goes to *VOLUMES* of the senate investigations.
So, with hundreds, nay *Thousands* of investigations they find a few dozen spies. And McCarthy makes it a press case for the press. McCarthy was a politician, just like Obama, whose sole desire was political power. I dare venture there was a point where, at the peak of his popularity, Joe secretly had aspirations to the White House. Had McCarthy's goals been as altruistic as the gullible dupes who defend him believe, then he would have pushed for a serious FBI investigation and the result would have been pink slips, not nationally broadcast hearings. 

Ann Coulter, like you, is an addled fool who spouts venom against everyone who fails to agree with every jot and tittle of her dogma.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 28, 2010)

Charles Stucker said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > There are more.
> ...



"...whose sole desire was political power..."

Since you have unveiled the ability to read minds, allow me the same:

Senator McCarthy's sole desire was to save the United States from world domination by Communism, which would have resulted it the same kind of repressions and slaughters history has documented in the Soviet Union, and China...over one hundred million murdered, in the United States.


The words of John Earl Haynes:
"In my view the American Communist party was a real danger to American democracy in the context of the early Cold War.  Its chief threat was that of political subversion, not espionage.  It is difficult to imagine that the political mobilization necessary for Americas commitment to the early Cold War would taken place had Communists and their allies retained the influence they had achieved in the labor movement and the broad New Deal coalition."
Return to Responses, Reflections and Occasional Papers


"...few dozen spies..."

Sadly you are unable to understand the difference between quantity and quality(of the threat.)

I suppose you would say why all the fuss, hardening targets at airports, tightening the rules for folks entering the country...after all there was only about a dozen terrorists who flew those planes into the Twin Towers....

You can't be that dense. Your agenda must be to support the McCarthy slander at all costs, and protect from criticism the party that, even today, continues to attempt to shut down dissent.


The paid and controlled Soviet agents and spies were advisors at the highest levels of government. They worked at the Pentagon, and at the Manhattan Project.

Your view, it seems,  is based on the relatively small number of prosecutions and convictions, but this overlooks the objectives of the FBI, which weighed exposing sources vs. prosecutions. The aim in counterespionage is always to disrupt the cells and prosecutions are secondary. The ongoing decryption of the Venona cables severely damaged and disruptions of Soviet espionage rings (over 300 Soviet agents active in the US Government during WWII and thereafter) in the last half of the 40s and 50s, and, while only a few spies were prosecuted, scores of others were identified, removed from their government posts and neutralized. Others who functioned as support personnel for Soviet espionage networks (couriers, recruiters, hosts of safe houses, and providers of false identities and sham jobs) were identified, questioned and frightened into inactivity. The Cold War and Korea reduced government and public toleration for Communists and Communist sympathizers. Trumans legal assault on communism, including the Smith Act, prosecuted leaders and included removing security risks from government. (see In Denial, Haynes and Klehr)


Senator Joe McCarthy confronted government officials concealing communist involvement and excessively lax security with regards to Communists in sensitive U.S. Government posts. In many cases he was on target, with over 81 of the names he gave the Tydings committee resulting in resignations or movement of security risks. Given that over 200 of the spies uncovered in the Venona decrypts were never identified, we can only speculate as to the national security impact of removing Communists from key DoD and State Dept posts. Arthur Herman, author of "Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator," says that the accuracy of McCarthy's charges "was no longer a matter of debate," that they are "now accepted as fact." And The New York Post's Eric Fettmann has noted: "growing historical evidence underscores that, whatever his rhetorical and investigative excesses - and they were substantial - McCarthy was a lot closer to the truth about Communism than were his foes."


If you have an interest in understanding the times, pick up a copy of the Haynes and Klehr book on the Venona Papers.  You will change  your view.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> You can't be that dense. Your agenda must be to support the McCarthy slander at all costs, and protect from criticism the party that, even today, continues to attempt to shut down dissent.



Where did he attack the Republican Party?


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> State exactly what he did that was in error, and name the individual that he harmed and in what way that individual was materially harmed: in other words, beyond hurt feeling, such as you evinced.



For the record, numerous examples have been cited in this thread and links given to instances of people who lost their jobs or were suspended as soon as they came under investigation by McCarthy.  In many of these cases the person under investigation exercised his or her right to 5th Ammendment protection only for McCarthy to very viciously go after the person publicly.

I'm curious.  If someone makes an unproven accusation against you, and you are suspeneded for a period of 3-4 years, or worse, you lose your job, wouldn't you say you've been harmed?

You might have a case if McCarthy had limited himself to employees requiring security clearance.  You might even have a case (albeit shaky) if McCarthy had limited himself to just federal employees.  However, he did not.  And people did lose jobs, incomes, and respect.  People were dragged through the mud because they had a dissenting opinion from McCarthy.

That's the truly heinous crime here.  McCarthyism represented an effort to criminalize dissent, and where it could not, it tried to make dissent Un-American.  That's why people attack McCarthy.  I could give a damn about whether he was a Republican or Democrat.  Anyone who acted as McCarthy did would come under attack by *Conservatives* who value limited government and *Liberals* who value civil rights.



PoliticalChic said:


> Just curious, which of Ms. Coulter's best sellers have you read?
> 
> Or do you take the MSNBC approach to knowledge?



Her books?  None.  I read her column as part of an ongoing effort to seek out differing opinion.  From time to time she has very good and salient points.  The problem is that she follows up a well reasoned arguement by an incredibly shrill headline seeking remark on a regular basis.  She enjoys attention, and actively seeks it out.



PoliticalChic said:


> " Projection and self loathing seem to be a common theme."
> 
> Psychobabble.


Weak.  Combined with this quote:



PoliticalChic said:


> "...pseudo-intellectual, babble..."
> I understand why you might believe that. Best of luck with your education.



And this one: 


PoliticalChic said:


> "...you leave us with only one question..."
> 
> Only three kinds of folks can use 'we' when referring to himself:
> 1. Royalty
> ...



You can't have any illusions about how your'e coming off in this thread.

You've created a ficticious strawman in your head about McCarthy's attackers.  I hope that should you be able to exorcize it, your attitude might improve.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 28, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > State exactly what he did that was in error, and name the individual that he harmed and in what way that individual was materially harmed: in other words, beyond hurt feeling, such as you evinced.
> ...



First, a subject near to my heart, and revealing of yours: Ann Coulter
Thank you for the honest response, that you have read none of her best sellers. This explains your attitude toward her.

And your objections? Amazingly similar to your complaint about the Senator:"The problem is that she follows up a well reasoned arguement by an incredibly shrill headline seeking remark on a regular basis. She enjoys attention, and actively seeks it out."

So, you admit that the problem for you is not what one says, merely how one says it.
It smacks of cowardice. I appologize in advance if this does not apply.

My friend, allow me to hold the mirror up to you:

Volumes of verbiage, short on documentation. 

You have yet to show 
1. Knowledge of the subject.
2. Individuals who were innocent of the charges, yet punished.
3. "suspeneded for a period of 3-4 years" and not compensated, as Val Lorwin was.

On the contrary, Communist agents were held up as heros and celebrities by folks like you.

Case in point:
Alger Hiss- . Proven guilty, jailed for 44 months for perjury (the statute of limitations had run out on espionage), Alger Hiss, traitorous agent of Soviet espionage, the American left views Hiss as a hero.

 After leaving prison, he spoke at Princeton and was given a standing ovation.  Bard College actually has the Alger Hiss Chair of Social Studies (Lawrence Helm's Blog: The Alger Hiss Chair at Bard College) 

In 1972, Massachusetts readmitted him to the bar. Liberals would never turn their backs on a man who spied for Stalin against America.

Even Lattimore was allowed to keep his job.


Now, re-read this post carefully and you will see what others have seen: I document my posts, support statements that I make.

And you? Bloviate.  Wring your hands, and tell how incensed you are over...what? The same statement over and over, in different words. 'McCarthy- bad man!"

How very penetrating!


I've made the same request over and over: name the suffering innocent individuals harmed by Senator McCarthy.

When I shoot down each of your efforts with documentation, you blithely amble off as though I never said it.

Therefore you have annointed yourself as one of those message board posters who, whether you know anything or not, merely wishes to post. And, clearly, you know nothing about this subject.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that, and without folks like you, my thread would be very, very short.  So thanks: this is valuable information that needed to be gotten out.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 28, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > You can't be that dense. Your agenda must be to support the McCarthy slander at all costs, and protect from criticism the party that, even today, continues to attempt to shut down dissent.
> ...



Witty?  Only half so.


Let's see if you are educable.

"Democrats are turning their fire on Scott Rasmussen, the prolific independent pollster whose surveys on elections, President Obama&#8217;s popularity and a host of other issues are surfacing in the media with increasing frequency. "

Read more: Low favorables: Democrats rip Rasmussen - Alex Isenstadt - POLITICO.com



"Interviewed on CNBC Tuesday, President Obama vented his displeasure with FOX News, the cable network whose own senior vice president of programming has called it "the voice of the opposition" to the Obama administration. "
President Obama Attacks FOX News -- Politics Daily


"After the Democratic convention, Obama campaign lawyer Robert Bauer warned TV stations against airing a TV ad that was embarrassing to Barack Obama. The commercial focused on the longtime relationship between Obama and Weather Underground terrorist Bill Ayers. Bauer sent letters to the Justice Department imploring the agency to pursue criminal action against those behind the ads. It was not lost on anyone at that time that Bauer was considered a candidate to be the next U.S. Attorney-General. "
The American Spectator : Obama's Enemies List

"Another Czar WHO WANTS TO DESTROY YOUR FREEDOMS.

Mr. Lloyd&#8217;s actual title is FCC Associate General Counsel and Chief Diversity Officer. Lloyd plans to implement what I call the reincarnation of the Fairness Doctrine. Lloyd is a staunch proponent on the enforcement of the FCC regulations known as &#8220;media diversity&#8221; and &#8220;localism.&#8221;
Obama FCC Czar Mark Lloyd wants to Shut Down Dissenting Media


Help me with this: does this post make you look like a jerk, or merely a comedian whose joke fell flat?


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> First, a subject near to my heart, and revealing of yours: Ann Coulter
> Thank you for the honest response, that you have read none of her best sellers. This explains your attitude toward her.



I've read enough.  I've seen very little to suggest that her books rise above the level of her weekly columns.  I'd put forward that the weekly musings of an author are more indicative of that authors intellectual skill and writing ability than the more polished book.



> And your objections? Amazingly similar to your complaint about the Senator:"The problem is that she follows up a well reasoned arguement by an incredibly shrill headline seeking remark on a regular basis. She enjoys attention, and actively seeks it out."



No, not very similar at all.  McCarthy's public comments were not well reasoned.  And yes, I find shrillness objectionable in adults.  It is a childish habit to resort to attention grabbing comments and outbursts.  That has no place in a reasoned conversation.



> So, you admit that the problem for you is not what one says, merely how one says it.
> It smacks of cowardice. I appologize in advance if this does not apply.



None of it did, but again, very rarely do you post anything that does apply.  Your tactic in this thread has been clear:

1.  Create strawmen.
2.  Attempt to put words in other poster's mouths.
3.  Ignore replies that actually refute what you way.

That's fine.  The internet is filled with folks that act in this way.  It is dissapointing that you fail to rise above the crowd.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 28, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > First, a subject near to my heart, and revealing of yours: Ann Coulter
> ...




This is not a response, as I have clearly documented: no strawmen here.

You are merely unequipped to refute.

But stop sulking.

Nobody knows who you really are.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Help me with this: does this post make you look like a jerk, or merely a comedian whose joke fell flat?



Considering you're the one defending a Senator who abused his office and tried to criminalize opinions that differed from his own, I'd say your post is much more illuminating about your own personality.

And for the record, I find absolutely nothing about McCarthyism funny.  I do not find attempts to criminalize dissent by the Left or the Right funny.

And I definitely do not find you funny.  I don't laugh when I read your witty posts... I'm just a bit sad for you.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> This is not a response, as I have clearly documented: no strawmen here.



You said this:



PoliticalChic said:


> On the contrary, Communist agents were held up as heros and celebrities by folks like you.
> 
> Case in point:
> Alger Hiss- . Proven guilty, jailed for 44 months for perjury (the statute of limitations had run out on espionage), Alger Hiss, traitorous agent of Soviet espionage, the American left views Hiss as a hero.



You should be very easily able to find a link, quote, or citation where I hold up Hiss as a hero, claim Hiss was innocent, or even dismiss the charges against him.

Snap to it or admit that you are once again guilty of putting *your words* in other posters mouths.  

Find even one instance, *one*, where anyone here has even complained that McCarthy targetted Democrats.  

Go.

I understand you're dense, but the issue with McCarthy was never about political parties.  It isn't even a debate about the threat Communism posed.  It is, was, and always will be about a US Senator using his power and position to start a witch hunt that any reasonable American, regardless of political stripe, would find distasteful.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Jan 28, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Help me with this: does this post make you look like a jerk, or merely a comedian whose joke fell flat?
> ...



Let's dissect your blather, er, posts.

First, I sliced and diced your partisan effort to say that the Repubs are the party that tries to shut up any disagreement, and, sure enough, as I stated earlier, you 'blithely amble away.'

You neither retract or appologize for the inaccuracy, nor defend against the documentation that I provide.


Second, suffering from inability and lack of imagination, you take the language that I provide and attempt to piggy back some comment using same.  

"... I read your witty posts..."


I guess it's true: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 

Again your post is a prime example of Deja Moo: I have the feeling I've heard this bull before.

Consider yourself dissed and dismissed.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> You neither retract or appologize for the inaccuracy, nor defend against the documentation that I provide.



There is no inaccuracy. In addtion, I never defend actions, on one political side or the other, to criminalize dissent.

I find it sad that you do.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Jan 28, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Witty?  Only half so.



That is half more than you ever are.

I have read Ms. Coulter; I was quite tempted to respond one of her book length diatribes with REASON is not spelled with a T Coulter is, for lack of a better term, an opinionated hack. She represents the worst of right wing American media. She skirts the line of total idiocy and frequently crosses it.

Just like you.

Your ignorant rant about McCarthy is just that, an ignorant rant. Nothing more, and all you appeals to authority, and such poor authority as Coulter, mean only that you are too stupid for reasoned debate.


----------



## rr1 (Feb 4, 2010)

So, it would appear that to some no McCarthy would have equated to NO PROBLEM?

I see.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Feb 5, 2010)

rr1 said:


> So, it would appear that to some no McCarthy would have equated to NO PROBLEM?
> 
> I see.



Your capacity for logic knows no bounds.
No lower bounds.

Yes there was a problem.
McCarthy made it *WORSE*

Two wrongs do not make a right, and McCarthy was in the wrong.


----------



## Old Rocks (Feb 5, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Yesterday there was an excellent thread on the Ukrainian holocaust.
> 
> Today is the anniversary of the sentencing of Alger Hiss. Most folks dont remember him, but most Americans have been fed the lie that the real enemy of America during WW II and the post-war era was Senator Joseph McCarthy. The Big Lie.
> 
> ...



McCarthy was a damned drunken demagogue. He should have recieved far more censure than he did. When he died, it was good riddance to bad rubbish.

McCarthy&#39;s (and Ashcroft&#39;s) Nemesis

Hunter typed the preamble of the Declaration, six amendments from the Constitution's Bill of Rights and the 15th amendment into the form of a petition. Then, he headed to a park where families were celebrating the Fourth. Of the 112 people he approached, 20 accused Hunter of being a communist. Many more said they approved of sentiments expressed in the petition but feared signing a document that might be used by McCarthy, who frequently charged that signers of petitions for civil rights, civil liberties or economic justice were either active Communists or fellow travelers. Only one man recognized the historic words and signed his name to the petition. 

Hunter's petition drive became a national sensation. Time magazine, The Washington Post and, of course, The Nation cited it as evidence of the damage done by McCarthy and his 'ism to the discourse. President Harry Truman called The Capital Times to praise the paper and cited Hunter's article in a speech. Hunter and his colleagues on The Capital Times would battle McCarthy for the next six years, gathering evidence of wrongdoing and deception that would eventually embolden other journalists and help shift the political climate sufficiently to permit the Senate's censure of the red-baiting senator.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Yesterday there was an excellent thread on the Ukrainian holocaust.
> 
> Today is the anniversary of the sentencing of Alger Hiss. Most folks dont remember him, but most Americans have been fed the lie that the real enemy of America during WW II and the post-war era was Senator Joseph McCarthy. The Big Lie.
> 
> ...



Have you read the book, "Blacklisted by History", about Senator McCarthy?  Fascinating read.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.
> ...



Two questions.  Is it hysteria if the Reds really ARE infiltrating the government?  And if they are, can you be a good candidate for Congress if you DON'T think that's a bad idea?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > "fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's ..."
> ...



You're going to discuss "McCarthyism", whatever the hell you think that was, without discussing the thing that McCarthy was fighting, and without allowing any analogies to similar threats in history?  Really?  That'll be a slick trick if you can manage it.  Let the entertainment begin.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Alger Hiss, Genuine Communist spy
> 
> Another Big Lie is to make FDR into a Great America President.



It's always amazed me that FDR allowed a Soviet spy to advise him at Yalta and managed not to be pilloried by history for it.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities. .
> ...



THAT is your standard?  American Communists didn't personally send anyone to the gulag, they only spied and shilled for people who did, so they're all upstanding citizens?!  You seriously want to go with that deliberate myopia as your argument?

You MUST be in college.  Only someone too young to remember the Cold War - or too brain-damaged - could be this clueless on the subject.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Well, let's see.  Soviet agents questioned by McCarthy's Permanent Sumbcommittee on Investigations, who were later identified as such:

Mary Jane Keeney of the United Nations, and her husband, Philip Keeney, of the Office of Strategic Services
Lauchlin Currie, special assistant to President Roosevelt
Virginius Frank Coe, US Treasury and the International Monetary Fund
William Ludwig Ullman, delegate to the United Nations Charter Conference and Bretton Woods Conference
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster United States Department of the Treasury and head of the Silvermaster network of spies
Harold Glasser, U.S. Treasury Representative to the Allied High Commission in Italy
Allan Rosenberg, Chief of the Economic Institution Staff, Foreign Economic Administration; Counsel to the National Labor Relations Board
Solomon Adler, U.S. Treasury Dept., went to China and joined government of Mao Zedong
Robert T. Miller, Department of State; also identified in the Gorsky Memo from Soviet Archives
Franz Leopold Neumann, consultant at Board of Economic Warfare; Deputy Chief of the Central European Section of Office of Strategic Services; First Chief of Research of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal; also identified in the Gorsky Memo from Soviet Archives
Laurence Duggan, head of United States Department of State Division of American Republics
Leonard Mins, Russian Section of the Research and Analysis Division of the Office of Strategic Services
Cedric Belfrage, British Security Coordination
Gerald Graze, U.S. State Department, confirmed in the Gorsky Memo from Soviet Archives
David Karr, Office of War Information; chief aide to journalist Drew Pearson
Sergey Nikolaevich Kurnakov, Daily Worker

Glad you asked.    And yes, there are more.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist.  Moss, in fact, had been absolutely identified as a Communist Party member  by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, _A Conspiracy So Immense_). She was listed in the Communist Partys records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon.  At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.
> ...



Actually, the question wasn't whether she broke the law.  The question was why she had a security clearance, when she was clearly a security risk.

Annie Lee Moss wasn't a "semi-literate wash-woman".  She was a code clerk at the Pentagon.  An FBI agent, working undercover in the DC American Communist Party for seven years, identified Moss as a member of the Communist Party, which at that time should have denied her security clearance.  McCarthy was trying to figure out how, with such a background, she managed to get promoted from a cafeteria worker (which is where she started out) to code clerk.  And that WAS the job of his committee, after all.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



No proof, huh?  This was the evidence presented against Moss:

Moss acknowledged that one of the top three Washington, D.C., Communists had visited her home and that she had lived, briefly, with an active party member who hosted Communist meetings at her house.

Copies of the Communist Party organ Daily Worker were delivered to Moss's home, addressed to her, but she denied that they were for her, and claimed that there are three Annie Lee Mosses in Washington, DC. At her testimony, Moss stated "We didn't get this Communist paper until after we had moved to Southwest, at 72 R Street." "[T]he address she gave in getting Government employment was the same as that of an Annie Lee Moss known to FBI Undercover Woman Mary Markward as a Communist." "[N]one of the other Anne Mosses lived at the three addresses contained in the CP [Communist Party] records  but this Annie Lee Moss had lived at all of them." 

Oh, yeah, did I forget to mention the testimony of undercover FBI agent Mary Markward?

"In 1958, the federal Subversive Activities Control Board reported that 'the Communist Party's own records, the authenticity of which the Party has at no time disputed  show that one Annie Lee Moss, 72 R Street SW, Washington DC, was a party member in the mid-1940s.'

Donald Ritchie, associate historian in the Senate Historical Office, "In 1958 the Subversive Activities Control Board confirmed Markwards assertion that Moss name had appeared on the Communist party rolls in the mid-1940s."

In the landmark United States Supreme Court decision of Communist Party of the United States v. Subversive Activities Control Board, 367 U.S. 1, 86 (1961), Justice Felix Frankfurter (who had been a mentor of and character witness for Alger Hiss) , writing for the majority, noted in response to allegations by the Communist Party that Markward had committed perjury, On December 18, 1956, the [Subversive Activities Control] Board issued its 240-page Modified Report. It found that Mrs. Markward was a credible witness....

The US Army charged Moss with being card number 37269 in the American Communist Party, saying she was issued the card in 1943.

Andrea Friedman, associate professor of history and of women and gender studies at Washington University in St. Louis, reported "substantial, if contested, evidence possessed by the U.S. government of her [Moss's] involvement in the [Communist] party. That evidenceconsisting of perhaps a dozen pieces of paperincluded a list of party recruits that identified Moss by name, race, age, and occupation; membership lists from two Communist party branches, the Communist Political Association, and various ad hoc committees containing Mosss name and address, as well as the number of her CP [Communist Party] membership book; and receipt records from 1945 for Daily Worker subscriptions that included Mosss name and amounts paid."


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



Really?  Who?



Dr.Traveler said:


> And as for Ms. Moss, provide proof she was a security threat.  Or that she was even active in the Communist Party at the time of her employment.



Did that already.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 6, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



Illicit?  What committee was he on?  Oh, that's right, the Senate Committee on Government Operations.  Wait, wouldn't one of their jobs be to investigate security risks on the government payroll?  Why, yes, I believe it would.

McCarthy never went after "ordinary Americans", nor did he work with "scant evidence".  He investigated government employees, based on investigations done by other agencies previously.  Believe it or not, he wasn't pulling names out of his hat.

"Illicit."


----------



## jim crawford (Feb 10, 2010)

The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.
			[nytimes-herman-mccarthy ]


   Three innocent people ruined by the likes of Jos McCarthy, Toper Extraordinaire [ dead @ 48 of alcohol induced  cirrhosis ]  and, I suspect, closet homosexual person  [otherwise, why have Roy Cohn, King Of Scumbaggio and noted closet catamite , as your assistant?]:  John Stewart Service, John K. Fairbank, Owen Lattimore, O. Edmund Clubb, John Paton Davies, Jr, Theodore H. White, John Carter Vincent, Steve Nelson, Theodore Kaghan, Harry Dexter White.  The inclusion of  Harry Dexter White deserves some explanation since he is still regarded as some sort of espionage mastermind, which in fact he was not.  In truth, international skullduggery was the farthest thing from his mind.  He was all of his life a committed capitalist and was a major force in designing the Bretton Woods monetary system [and the creation of the World Bank & the IMF], which the USSR refused to join, and which Nixon finally succeeded in unintentionally [?] destroying in 1972, handing essential control of the world monetary system, the World Bank, and the IMF over to the international corporations.

  Of the China Hands --- Lattimore, Fairbank, Davies, Clubb, et al, it can safely be said that their removal from the Foreign Service probably contributed to the tragedy of Vietnam, as their presence in the State Department would have definitely worked toward putting a brake on American plans for invading Vietnam, as all of them, like generals MacArthur and Eisenhower, et al. opposed any land war in Asia.  As it was, the people who replaced the China Hands were not influential enough to stop the tragedy from taking place. 

     However, White also had working in his office at Treasury a group of committed Leninist/Stalinists [ Bolshevism - not like real communism at all, at least as prescribed by Marx, Rosa Luxembourg, et al.] led by one Nathan  Silvermaster, a friend of White's, and a covert, Soviet espionage agent who, although he was supposed to have been thoroughly vetted by J Edgar Hoover's FBI, was not discovered to be a spy until after WWII.

   Although in those days, 1930s  ca.1944, communism was a perfectly acceptable and entirely legal, American political philosophy, White himself also made what later turned out to be a mistake --- talking extensively with the Soviet representative to Bretton Woods, part of White's job assignment really, but the man turned out to be a KGB operative as well as an economist representing the USSR at Bretton Woods.  Compounding the problem of the accusations against White was the fact that the Venona transcripts mentioned him by a code name, the complication being that Venona had code names for every important person in the US and allied governments, including Eisenhower,  Marshall, Hull, Hiss, Stimson,Truman, Harry Hopkins, Acheson, Lauchlin Currie [ accused, but never prosecuted --- no evidence] , FDR, Churchill, Montgomery, etc.  Unfortunately some people fail to understand that being mentioned in Venona is not evidence of espionage by that person.

   As for Alger Hiss, it is becoming increasingly clear that Hiss was never an espionage agent, the most recent and relevant testimony being that of two Soviet NKVD/KGB generals, Dmitri Volkogonov and Julius Kobyakov, whose testimony, based on thorough research in Soviet KGB and GRU  [military] files,  flatly contradicts the socalled evidence presented by political partisans in this country. [NYU - The Alger Hiss Story ]

  For more names of people whose lives were seriously and adversely affected by the likes of 'Tail Gunner' Joe, see the relevant biographies and histories, e.g, authors like Ellen Schrecker, David M. Oshinsky, et al. He was also called the "Pepsi Cola Kid," but not because he defended the Nazis who murdered 90 American GIs at Malmedy in 1944.] 


  For some vintage Ann Coulter & Joe McCarthy: Joe Conason Reviews Ann Coulter's Treason

                     jim crawford
                       Westwood   NJ


----------



## LuckyDan (Feb 10, 2010)

jim crawford said:


> Wow. Thanks, Jim. Say hey to the gang at the DW for me.
> 
> Boy was I wrong.


----------



## mudwhistle (Feb 10, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> Mccarthy was the main enemy in WWII?
> 
> I have never heard ANYONE claim that.
> 
> He was an evil toad but not the main evil toad.



Yes....and George W. Bush is the biggest mass-murderer and terrorist in history I suppose.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 10, 2010)

jim crawford said:


> &#8220;The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.&#8221;
> [nytimes-herman-mccarthy ]
> 
> 
> ...



First, welcome to the board.

Your post is a worthy attempt at refutation.  I hope you will continue on the board, for without work such as yours, we are left with insipid fools such as Old Rocks, and beating him up and his neg reps have become tiresome.

But enough of the chit chat.

Your opus identifies you as a public school grad, one who has suffered through the 'progressive-education-anything-you-write-is-just-awesome' puffery.

The hallmark is the use of conjecture as though it were documented fact, the liberal 'feeling is as good as knowing' sophistry.

"...best and most generous estimate ..."
Do you know what an estimate is? And the importance of who makes the estimate? NYTimes? 
An how many of the "ten thousand Americans " were fired by Senator McCarthy? Subpoenaed by him?  Indicted by him? Well then, what connection?

"...removal from the Foreign Service probably contributed..."
Probably???? Conjecture, and so far fetched that you should be embarrassed.

"...Leninist/Stalinists [ Bolshevism - not like real communism at all..."
What???
I hope your future work will be more reality based.

"Although in those days, 1930s &#8211; ca.1944, &#8220;communism&#8221; was a perfectly acceptable and entirely legal, American political philosophy"
While the statement is basically true, the inclusion of the word "American" marks you as a dolt.
Further, merely because so many didn't recognize the viral threat, and still don't, as you prove, indicates how important was the work of Senator McCarthy.



Another indicaton of public school mis-education, you claim to list "Three innocent people ruined by the likes of Jos McCarthy," and then you list:"John Stewart Service, John K. Fairbank, Owen Lattimore, O. Edmund Clubb, John Paton Davies, Jr, Theodore H. White, John Carter Vincent, Steve Nelson, Theodore Kaghan, Harry Dexter White."

First, Lattimore:
 Lattimore was found to be a &#8220;conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy&#8221; by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) As far as his life being ruined, &#8220;When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave with pay. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes.&#8221; Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129"

The ever-intrepid Evans (M. Stanton Evans, author of Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his fight Against America's Enemies,)  has produced a memo from Lou Nichols of the FBI saying he couldn't understand what had come over Tydings &#8212; that the Maryland Democrat knew very well that Director Hoover had said that if he had been on the Loyalty Board, he would have questioned any attempt to clear Lattimore, and that he regarded the IPR icon as a security risk and would never have hired him at the Bureau.
&#8226;	Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek &#8212; then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
&#8226;	Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore &#8212; within the Politburo of the Communist Party &#8212; "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
&#8226;	A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
&#8226;	On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations


You are coming mighty close to a failing grade.

And would you connect the names you indicate with the restrictions of the OP: 1)innocent of the stain of Communism, 2) attach the term 'ruined' with your 'witnesses.' You do know the meaning of ruined, don't you?  If not sure, consult the Collegiate Dictionary.

Sorry, I have tried to give you a 'gentleman's C grade' but your reference to Hiss as innocent, in the light of the work by Haynes and Klehr, _Venona Papers_, marks you as a failure in this area. 

&#8220;&#8230; four notes in Alger Hiss's handwriting, sixty-five typewritten copies of State Department documents and five strips of microfilm, some of which contained photographs of State Department documents. The press came to call these the "Pumpkin Papers"(Whittaker Chambers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) And, of course, all doubt was removed in 1995, when the Venona Soviet cables were decrypted.

Again, welcome, but I expect better work in the future.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 10, 2010)

jim crawford said:


> The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.
> [nytimes-herman-mccarthy ]
> 
> 
> ...



In future, edit your cut-and-pastes so that they're more readable.  I'm not entirely sure what theme the first sentence of your first paragraph is trying to establish, but if it's that any of those people listed were innocent, the Venona Project proves they were not.  Also, that whole "I suspect McCarthy was gay, because why else would he hire a known gay man?" remark makes you sound like a smarmy, hypocritical, gay-hating bigot.

Not a good first effort.  Try harder.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 10, 2010)

This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
"Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."

Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?

Sadly, you are mistaken. Your posts are far more flawed, as this poster actually shows some knowledge of the subject, an aspect lacking in  your posts.

Further, he attempts documentation to a greater extent than you do.

So, don't hurt your arm pattting yourself on the back, and 
to paraphrase  Donne, the bell tolls for you.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 10, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
> "Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."
> 
> Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?
> ...



How's the newby going to learn from his errors and do better if no one points them out and tells him what he needs to do?

And when did we become a public school, to flatter and praise someone just for drawing breath?


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Feb 11, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
> "Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."
> 
> Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?
> ...



Smug superiority.  Why oh why am I not surprised?

Here's an offer:  If you find my posts inferior, add me to your ignore list.  Drop me a line letting me know you did, and I will do the same.

Till then, I won't apologize for the neg rep.  Such a blatantly hostile response, when a simple factual response would have sufficed, should get a neg rep.  Hopefully one day you'll learn that if even if you're 100% correct, people won't listen, learn or accept it coming from an @$$


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 11, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
> ...



I neither 'ignore' nor give negative reps.

I leave that to the lesser posters, as you have so identified yourself.

My belief is that the essence of a public message board is to hash out differences in public-

unless one feels so inferior (if the shoe fits...) that one is unable to sustain the back and

 forth.

In that case, one can use the 'ignore' function, or subscribe to the ilntellectual laze that 

you have found fits your character.

I never asked for an apology,...merely indicated my disrespect for you.  And I did so in

 public.  You might, as you suggested vis-a-vis the newby, learn from my methods.  If you

 are capable of learning.

So, in summary, it seems that not only do you lack ability, but have all the backbone of a Slinky.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Feb 11, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



PoliticalChic's character on display for all to see here.

Keep on posting.  You're the MVP for my side of the argument.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 11, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



That's what I mean about lacking ability.

What an earth-shaking come back!


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 11, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Ann Coulter only touched on starting to put the record straight.  The source she went to, M. Stanton Evans, truly set the record straight in his book, "Blacklisted by History".  A fascinating read for any history buff with an open mind.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 11, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Now, can you identify _*ONE SPY*_ that McCarthy found?
> ...



I believe I listed in one of my earlier posts a number of people McCarthy's subcommittee questioned who were later positively identified by the Venona Project as Soviet spies.

And yeah, McCarthy was done in by clever television editing.  Which just goes to show you you can never fully believe what you see on TV.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 11, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



Nice of you to move the goalposts in mid-play.  First, it's "did McCarthy find any", then it's "were they convicted".

Mary Jane Keeney was questioned by McCarthy, not as a spy, but merely as a Communist who shouldn't have had government clearance.  As it happens, she and her husband WERE proven, by the Venona decrypts, to have been working for Soviet military intelligence.

Just because you're not convicted in court of something doesn't mean you didn't do it.  And it doesn't mean the people who suspected you of it were wrong.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 11, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



Why would that make anyone sad?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 11, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



I love it.  "If the people he questioned were already suspected by someone else, even if they turned out to be guilty as sin, McCarthy found NOTHING!"

Yeah, whatever.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Feb 11, 2010)

Samson said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Someone who had no freaking business having a government security clearance, because there was ample and solid reason to believe they weren't loyal to the US.


----------



## Samson (Feb 11, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



I'm a delicate flower.


----------

