# A map of the liberal thought process on abortion



## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

I've been wanting to try this for a long time. 

The idea of this thread is really very simple. I am curious about what the left's thought process is from start to finish on abortion. Ultimately, since our Constitution is the supreme 'law of the land' it has to come down to a reading, understanding and or interpretation of the Constitution itself. 

So, starting with all the facts and realities we have today, including The Constitution, Roe and all the Supreme Court cases, scientific facts, etc. . . 

Please help me map out (and thereby understand) the liberal thought process of abortion. 

If need by, I will start a similar map for the Conservative thought process in another thread - to serve as a guideline for this one. 

Trolling and thread derail attempts will be reported. (for whatever good that does) Wouldn't it be great if we could have threads without all that? 

I digress. 

Staring with a 'blank page' as much as that is possible. . . The FIRST thought that comes to mind when you think about the abortion issue as a left leaning person is. . . 

WHAT?

Then the next step, etc.


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## Weatherman2020 (Apr 27, 2017)

Good or evil. 

The left always side with evil on EVERY topic where the left and right disagree.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 27, 2017)

First, begin with a closed circle that they cannot escape nor facts penetrate, representing their general arguments.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

government intrusion into reproductive privacy wasn't even considered at the inception of our country.

the power of big daddy government is what changed... 

politicizing this private issue now serves as a nice big wedge to get bible thumping emos on the wrong side of history.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

since the beginning of time, including mentions in the bible, women have understood exactly what they are choosing in the privacy of their own womb...

women don't need anyone to draw a gruesome picture, or a government mandated vaginal probe to rub their face in a moving 3D image just so YOU can feel better about yourself.

most Americans AND most Christians understand that such government overreach into reproductive privacy is unduly oppressive AND immoral...


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

Abortion is a made up issue designed to coalesce a right-wing political movement. It isn’t even mentioned in the Bible unless you consider the obvious implications of the ordeal of the bitter water in Numbers 5.

Everyone has a right to make their own decisions about abortion and we believe if someone is against it they shouldn't have one. No one has the right to impose their beliefs on this topic on others, especially when right-wing Biblical interpretations are fabricated for political purposes.  

Most conservative "Christians" won't read won't read any further than this. They just can't handle hearing something that could bring down their entire psychological house of cards. That means it's up to us to educate ourselves and educate those around us who will listen.

Abortion


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

_two-thirds of human conceptions are spontaneously aborted by nature.

If fetal rights were enshrined in law, women's bodies, rights, and health would be subordinated to the protection of embryos. The legal consequences of such a law would be catastrophic. The best way to protect the fetus is to promote the health and well-being of women._

_Laws have never stopped abortion, but only made it unsafe for women. Abortion is a universal practice that has been with us since the beginning of time, whether legal or illegal._

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

A map of the liberal thought process on abortion



Chuz Life said:


> I've been wanting to try this for a long time.





a map of the sanctimonious rethuglican thought process on reproductive privacy: 


_'well i support fascist control of women because i care about babies and you don't. _

_only evil, uncivilized, uneducated, selfish, lazy sluts are politically pro-choice'_


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> First, begin with a closed circle that they cannot escape nor facts penetrate, representing their general arguments.


That is an excellent description for the pro-birth crew.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Good or evil.
> 
> The left always side with evil on EVERY topic where the left and right disagree.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

_It's very interesting to note that in Jewish law and tradition an unborn fetus is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth).

Things haven't always been the way they are now with American Christianity.

A 1968 a symposium sponsored by the Christian Medical Society and Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, refused to characterize abortion as sinful, citing 'individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility' as justifications for ending a pregnancy.

...

Enter con-man Paul Weyrich, the late religious conservative political activist, co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, and Godfather of The “Christian” Right, who literally shopped various issues trying to galvanize a conservative “Christian” movement.

His hypothetical “moral majority” needed a catalyst—a standard around which to rally. _


The Christian Left


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## miketx (Apr 27, 2017)

I had sex because it was my right. I took no precautions because I don't care. I'm pregnant now and I don't want it. I'm gonna kill because I don't care.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

miketx said:


> I had sex because it was my right. I took no precautions *because I don't care*. I'm pregnant know and I don't want it. I'm gonna kill* because I don't care*.





big daddy government loving sanctimonious emo twit says what?



Conservative "Christians" actually get extremely hostile about this issue. Abortion and LGBT equality are the only two flimsy reasons they have to cling their twisted right-wing ideology. Deep down they must know on some level that right-wing ideology and the teachings of Jesus Christ just don't go together. They don't line up. They don't fit. To alleviate their cognitive dissonance they have to demonize and scapegoat others. Liberals become "Baby Killers." LGBT folks are an "abomination," and a threat to the fabric of society and "good, clean Family Values."

It's really sad that modern Christianity has been led down this ugly road.

Again, conservative "Christians" won't read this article. It's up to us to educate ourselves and educate those around us who will listen.


The Christian Left


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

Nothing but trolling, flaming and spam.

I couldn't be more disappointed. 

I sincerely think it would be interesting, productive and useful to have a map / flowchart on not only the abortion issue but on any number of other subjects as well. 

Are there not any others interested in this as well?


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## miketx (Apr 27, 2017)

miketx said:


> I had sex because it was my right. I took no precautions because I don't care. I'm pregnant now and I don't want it. I'm gonna kill because I don't care.



The above is not trolling. It's what I see libs do. I answered your question.


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## Moonglow (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> Nothing but trolling, flaming and spam.
> 
> I couldn't be more disappointed.
> 
> ...


The title of the thread is trolling...So what else would follow?
I myself would never use abortion..and I am a liberal...I pay for what I create, cherish it and keep it...What others do is their story..


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

religious conservatives are not_ actually_ politically conservative.

SHARIA LAW was born from religious conservatism. 

this evil, oppressive, and manipulative political agenda needs to be aborted in the USA  



*Roe v. Wade (1973) Jane Roe vs Wade County Texas*
_
In a 7-2 decision written by *Justice Harry Blackmun* (A POLITICAL CONSERVATIVE who was chosen because of his prior experience as counsel to the Mayo Clinic), the Court ruled that the Texas statute violated Jane Roe's constitutional right to privacy. The Court argued that *the Constitution's First, Fourth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments protect an individual's "zone of privacy" against state laws* and cited past cases ruling that marriage, contraception, and child rearing are activities covered in this "zone of privacy." The Court then argued that the "zone of privacy" was "broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy." This decision involved myriad physical, psychological, and economic stresses a pregnant woman must face.

The Supreme Court . Expanding Civil Rights . Landmark Cases . Roe v. Wade (1973) | PBS_


_In *Casey v*. *Planned Parenthood* (1992), the Supreme Court *affirmed the basic ruling of Roe v. Wade that the state is prohibited from banning* most abortions._


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> Nothing but trolling, flaming and spam.
> 
> I couldn't be more disappointed.
> 
> ...




oh my, you were only interested in your fairy tale version of your political opponents' mind set??




_Women around the world have used abortion to control their reproduction at every point in history, and in every known society — regardless of its legality._

_In the United States, abortion was widely practiced before about 1880, by which time most states had banned it except to save the life of the woman. Anti-abortion legislation was part of a backlash against the growing movements for suffrage and birth control — an effort to control women and confine them to a traditional childbearing role.

History of Abortion in the U.S. - Our Bodies Ourselves_


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

gee i thought this was the US Constitution forum...  does the melting OP need a safe space?  



*Gorsuch: I Accept Roe v. Wade as 'the Law of the Land' *

Gorsuch: I Accept Roe v. Wade as 'the Law of the Land'


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

Conservative "Christians" have all manner of mantras they repeat over and over again. Several examples include, "There's no such thing as The Christian Left," "The Christian Left is an oxymoron," "You can't be a Christian and a Liberal," "You can't be a Christian and be pro-choice."

Once again all of the above are lies they have to tell themselves to avoid cognitive dissonance. 


In fact, there's an organization called the Religious Coalition For Reproductive Choice which consists of more than 40 denominations and faith groups who educate and promote issues of reproductive choice.

Don't ever let any of your conservative "Christian" friends or family shout you down on this or any other issue again. Their ridiculous mantras are nothing more than pure silliness. Fewer and fewer people buy them. They are the reason so many people want nothing to do with organized religion, which is sad, because their rhetoric is a pack of extremist fabrications. 


Abortion


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

To map a particular process, one must proceed from right definitions.

The OP proceeds only from the OP's definitions, which are not submitted to the Board.

Of course trolling occurs.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

"trolling" is a rather convenient way to dismiss responses.  

i'm just one individual responding to the op and elucidating a topic i care deeply about.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

if the op only wants to write fairy tales, maybe he should run off to the creative writing forum.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

Moonglow said:


> Chuz Life said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing but trolling, flaming and spam.
> ...



It is not trolling at all. 

Do leftists not have a thought process?

Assuming they do... how would it be controlling to try to plot it out , like with a flow chart?


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## Moonglow (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> Moonglow said:
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I have a hard enough time keeping on track with mine..


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

*What Does it Mean to Be Pro-Life?*


When it comes to abortion, the fundamental policy difference between Republicans and Democrats is Republicans say they oppose abortion; Democrats actually do things to reduce abortions.

What Does it Mean to Be Pro-Life?

The Moral Case


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

_Anyone who is truly pro-life surely must support universal health care. 

The United States today leads the industrialized world in pre-natal deaths. Millions of pre-born babies have died in America due to a lack of adequate health care for their mothers. How do we know universal health care would help? Well, it's pretty obvious actually. 

The U.S. is next to last in the industrialized world in pre-natal mortality. We even trail some third world countries -- like Cuba. 

According to the State of the World's Mothers Report American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan, and newborn mortality is 2.5 times higher in the United States than in Finland, Iceland or Norway.


The 40 or so other nations that have a lower death rate all have one thing in common; they all have universal, government provided, health care. So, surely if one is pro-life then one supports universal health care.

_


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> To map a particular process, one must proceed from right definitions.
> 
> The OP proceeds only from the OP's definitions, which are not submitted to the Board.
> 
> Of course trolling occurs.



I submitted no definitions at all in the OP and in fact said we should start with a blank page... while also considering the fact that things like the Constitution  does exist and I  encouraged the responders to expound on how they take the Constitution into consideration or factor it in.


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## miketx (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> Moonglow said:
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> > Chuz Life said:
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I already did it for you, plain and simple. That's how they think.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

who are "THEY" ? your imaginary friends??


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

Almost everyone thinks the right to choose should be granted in some cases (rape, incest, life of mother) and also that the government should be able to prohibit abortion in some cases (i.e. 3rd trimester). 

So, the good news is there is much we all (pro-life and pro-choice) Republicans and Democrats agree on about abortion. Also, there are a broad range of issues besides abortion that impact the "sanctity of life."

 Finally, and this is counter-intuitive, the data seems to demonstrate that generally when Democrats are in power, abortions decline; when Republicans are in power, abortions rise. Democratic policies are generally more supportive of helping women carry pregnancies to term.

This is likely true for several reasons, foremost because Democratic administrations generally provide more economic support for poor women which helps them afford to choose to have children.

Economic support is crucial to reducing abortions because 3/4 of women who have an abortion say at least part of the reason they chose to abort was because they couldn't afford to raise a child. It's also been shown again and again that rising poverty causes abortions to rise.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > To map a particular process, one must proceed from right definitions.
> ...


Then if you are beginning with a blank page, please give a list of terms and definitions.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

Lower abortion rates under Democratic administrations likely is also caused because Democrats tend to expand family planning, maternal health and contraception services. These services (also included in most universal health care plans) unquestionably reduce abortions as well as save the lives of women and children, born and unborn, both in the United States and worldwide.


Birth control also helps create stable families since most unintended pregnancies happen outside of marriage. As a group, young, unwed, mothers find it harder to go to college, have a career and/or marry a man with a good job. So, birth control reduces those kinds of pregnancies and therefore helps women to get pregnant when their lives are more established and hopefully they are married.


When voting for a politician, consider all his or her views and decide which candidate you think is really "pro-life" and which supports policies likely to result in more death. A "pro-life" bumper sticker or even stating that one is "against abortion" is not enough, alone, to make one really pro-life.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

*Conservative Evangelicals Traditionally were Pro-Choice*

It was Jerry Falwell who first said in 1980 that "The Bible clearly states that life begins at conception… (Abortion) is murder according to the Word of God."

Wow, that statement by Jerry Falwell changed the world because the issue of abortion (never mentioned in the bible) became THE defining political issue for conservative evangelicals. They went from supporting their fellow Southern Baptist (Jimmy Carter) to supporting Ronald Reagan. And, the rest is history.

Today, the power the Republican party wields in most of the country is only possible because of the staunch support of conservative evangelicals. And the issue of abortion is front and center, indeed paramount, to millions of them.

Conservative Evangelicals Traditionally were Pro-Choice


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Chuz Life said:
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The purpose of this is to discover what information it is that left leaning people actually use...

Providing my own references should not be necessary for anyone else to be able to share what their resources and interpretations are.


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## miketx (Apr 27, 2017)

Ok this is pointless. Goodbye.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

The tolerance of spamming and such in threads like this is one of the reasons I  will likely  never be donating any money to this site.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz, go away if you cannot be honest.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Chuz, go away if you cannot be honest.



I am completely honest.

I am also very curious as to what the thought processes of others really might look like, where we agree, where  we disagree, etc.

It would be nice to find a forum where that can be explored without all the spamming and trolling that we have seen so far.


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## koshergrl (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> I've been wanting to try this for a long time.
> 
> The idea of this thread is really very simple. I am curious about what the left's thought process is from start to finish on abortion. Ultimately, since our Constitution is the supreme 'law of the land' it has to come down to a reading, understanding and or interpretation of the Constitution itself.
> 
> ...



whhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

A map of the EVANGELICAL PRO CHOICE thought process on abortion


The spring of my sophomore year of college I was president of my university’s Students for Life chapter. The fall of my junior year of college I cut my ties with the pro-life movement. Five years later I have lost the last shred of faith I had in that movement. This is my story.

I was raised in the sort of evangelical family where abortion is the number one political issue. I grew up believing that abortion was murder, and when I stopped identifying as pro-life I initially still believed that. Why, then, did I stop identifying as pro-life? Quite simply, I learned that increasing contraceptive use, _not banning abortion,_ was the key to decreasing the number of abortions. Given that the pro-life movement focuses on banning abortion and is generally opposed advocating greater contraceptive use, I knew that I no longer fit. I also knew that my biggest allies in decreasing the number of abortions were those who supported increased birth control use – in other words, pro-choice progressives. And so I stopped calling myself pro-life.

My views on fetal personhood and women’s bodily autonomy have shifted since that day, but when I first started blogging a year and a half ago I was nevertheless very insistent that the pro-life movement should be taken at its word when it came to rhetoric about saving “unborn babies” from being “murdered.” I insisted that the pro-life movement wasn’t anti-woman or anti-sex, and that those who opposed abortion genuinely believed that a zygote/embryo/fetus was a person with rights in need of protection just like any other person. I believed that the pro-life movement’s actions were counterproductive, but that they were merely misinformed. I wrote a post with practical suggestions for opponents of abortion. I believed that the pro-life movement was genuine in its goals, but simply ignorant about how its goals might best be obtained.

I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong.

As a child, teen, and college student, I sincerely believed that personhood, life, rights, and the soul all began at fertilization. I was honestly opposed to abortion because I believed it was murder. It had nothing to do with being anti-woman or anti-sex. I thought that the pro-life movement writ large – the major pro-life organizations, leaders, and politicians – were similarly genuine. I thought that they, like myself, simply wanted to “save the lives of unborn babies.”

I have come to the conclusion that I was a dupe.

What I want to share here is how I came to this realization. And if you, reader, are one of those who opposes abortion because you believe it is murder and you want to save the lives of unborn babies, well, I hope to persuade you that the pro-life movement is not actually your ally in this, that you have been misled, and that you would be more effective in decreasing the number of abortions that occur if you were to side with pro-choice progressives. If this is you, please hear me out before shaking your head.

How I Lost Faith in the "Pro-Life" Movement


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## koshergrl (Apr 27, 2017)

Valerie said:


> The spring of my sophomore year of college I was president of my university’s Students for Life chapter. The fall of my junior year of college I cut my ties with the pro-life movement. Five years later I have lost the last shred of faith I had in that movement. This is my story.
> 
> I was raised in the sort of evangelical family where abortion is the number one political issue. I grew up believing that abortion was murder, and when I stopped identifying as pro-life I initially still believed that. Why, then, did I stop identifying as pro-life? Quite simply, I learned that increasing contraceptive use, _not banning abortion,_ was the key to decreasing the number of abortions. Given that the pro-life movement focuses on banning abortion and is generally opposed advocating greater contraceptive use, I knew that I no longer fit. I also knew that my biggest allies in decreasing the number of abortions were those who supported increased birth control use – in other words, pro-choice progressives. And so I stopped calling myself pro-life.
> 
> ...



Plagarist. Use fucking quotes. 

And kindly refrain from the propaganda. He wants your thoughts. Not the material you're paid to push onto 12 year old girls that you're *counseling*.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

LIES AND PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE ALL YOU HAVE, ALLIEBOOHOO


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## flacaltenn (Apr 27, 2017)

*Mod Note: 

This thread is in the US Constitution forum. It's here because the OP wants to discuss the LEGAL and Constitutional thought processes of folks on either side of the issue. Not gonna allow the same general brawl that normally ensues. If you have no input as to what your Legal or Constitutional thinking on this is -- best find another thread... 
*


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## koshergrl (Apr 27, 2017)

The OP is not formed in terms that discuss the CONSTITUTIONALITY of abortion or the constitution, period. It's formed in terms of thought processes and emotion.

In other words, it doesn't belong in this forum.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

the op asks for affirmation of _his version of_ the "thought process" of those opposed to his misguided agenda.

this troll even named himself after his agenda.

i offer _the actual_ "thought processes" of those opposed to his misguided agenda.


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## koshergrl (Apr 27, 2017)

Valerie said:


> the op asks for affirmation of _his version of_ the "thought process" of those opposed to his misguided agenda.
> 
> this troll even named himself after his agenda.
> 
> i offer _the actual_ "thought processes" of those opposed to his misguided agenda.


No, he asks for your thought presses. Not some random propaganda piece, presented without quotes.

don't feel bad, Rav doesn't understand this sort of stuff either.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> *Mod Note:
> 
> This thread is in the US Constitution forum. It's here because the OP wants to discuss the LEGAL and Constitutional thought processes of folks on either side of the issue. Not gonna allow the same general brawl that normally ensues. If you have no input as to what your Legal or Constitutional thinking on this is -- best find another thread... *




*Constitutional thought processes of folks on either side of the issue.

*
where does he do THAT?  ^


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## koshergrl (Apr 27, 2017)

Valerie said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > *Mod Note:
> ...



What the hell is a "Constitutional thought process"?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA


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## koshergrl (Apr 27, 2017)

That reminds me, I have editing to do...cwap.


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## flacaltenn (Apr 27, 2017)

Valerie said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > *Mod Note:
> ...



Probably should re-read the OP again.. And realize WHY it was placed in US Constitution forum.



> Ultimately, since our Constitution is the supreme 'law of the land' it has to come down to a reading, understanding and or interpretation of the Constitution itself.
> 
> So, starting with all the facts and realities we have today, including The Constitution, Roe and all the Supreme Court cases, scientific facts, etc. . .
> 
> Please help me map out (and thereby understand) the liberal thought process of abortion.


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## Valerie (Apr 27, 2017)

...probably should read the substance of my posts and learn something about the pro-choice thought process.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

koshergrl said:


> Chuz Life said:
> 
> 
> > I've been wanting to try this for a long time.
> ...



There are a few reasons for why I  am interested in this. 

One is just pure curiosity to see how much effort my opponents actually put into understanding their own reasoning. 

Another reason is so I  can have  two or three thought processes well documented and presented for those on the fence to do their own comparisons between. 

And also, the better I can understand my opponents thought processes,  the better I can tailor my questions and arguments to them. 

I have no qualms at all about sharing my own thought processes... so they can do the same. 

In the end... it's kind of a competition and the better thought processes should prevail. Least I   would hope so.


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## koshergrl (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> koshergrl said:
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> > Chuz Life said:
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There is nothing to understand, they believe it's okay to kill vulnerable people who have no value to them, and if the constitution doesn't like it, then the constitution is a *living* document..which is to say, they don't care.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

koshergrl said:


> Chuz Life said:
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> > koshergrl said:
> ...



Ok, we'll if that is indeed their thought process, maybe one of them will post and explain it just like you did.

That one would be very easy to argue against though. Wouldn't it?


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

Valerie said:


> ...probably should read the substance of my posts and learn something about the pro-choice thought process.



Why is it asking too much for you to take us through your thought process step by step... start to finish?

As soon as I get the time, I will be doing exactly that in a new thread, so the Conservative thought process is out there for comparison.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

Oh, please do, Chuz!


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

And in forty four years the pro-birth side has not able to adress, "*If this suggestion of personhood is established, the (pro-abortion) appellant's case, of course, collapses,* for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the (14th) Amendment. *The appellant conceded as much on reargument.*


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

koshergrl said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



It's an argument for any given position or conclusion that doesn't run  contrary to the Constitution.

A Constitutionally sound argument, if you will. Preferably one that uses or refers to the exact language of the Constitution for key points.


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## ScienceRocks (Apr 27, 2017)

Lol,

Abortion is constitutional and always be...I don't like it but that is the way the cookie crumbles.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

Matthew said:


> Lol,
> 
> Abortion is constitutional and always be...I don't like it but that is the way the cookie crumbles.



That's your conclusion.

Please share the thought processes you used to reach it.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

Why? You won't accept them as a valid conclusion.


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## ScienceRocks (Apr 27, 2017)

Where in the constitution says that abortion is illegal?


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## Chuz Life (Apr 27, 2017)

Matthew said:


> Where in the constitution says that abortion is illegal?



I will present the Conservative Constitutional arguments here very soon in a new thread and it will be linked to this one.

Your conclusion is that it should remain legal. I am hoping you will share your thought process on that.

Will you?


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 27, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> Matthew said:
> 
> 
> > Where in the constitution says that abortion is illegal?
> ...


You have presented them elsewhere, you failed, and I look forward to you offering the opportunity to redeem yourself.


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## mamooth (Apr 28, 2017)

Given how abortion was legal and common when the Constitution was written, the writers plainly had no problem with it. It was just common sense to everyone that fetuses weren't people. Still is, despite historically recent pro-life revisionism that tries to pretend otherwise.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 28, 2017)

mamooth said:


> Given how abortion was legal and common when the Constitution was written, the writers plainly had no problem with it. It was just common sense to everyone that fetuses weren't people. Still is, despite historically recent pro-life revisionism that tries to pretend otherwise.



So that is your thought process on the matter?

Slavery was legal and women had no right to vote when the Constitution was written too. 

How does your appeal to tradition line of thinking fall in line with those being changed over time?


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## mamooth (Apr 29, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> So that is your thought process on the matter?



On the matter of the Constitution, yes.



> Slavery was legal and women had no right to vote when the Constitution was written too.



That's why the Constitution had to be amended.



> How does your appeal to tradition line of thinking fall in line with those being changed over time?



It's in complete agreement with the process of amending the Constitution.


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## Chuz Life (Apr 30, 2017)

mamooth said:


> Chuz Life said:
> 
> 
> > So that is your thought process on the matter?
> ...




The question is, given your previously stated thought process of appealing to tradition, would you have seen the injustices of slavery (if you were living in that time) to see that an amendment was warranted. 

No doubt that there were many who had mindsets likes yours back then who thought that slavery issues was "settled law" and in their mind, no corrections were needed.


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## mamooth (Apr 30, 2017)

Chuz Life said:


> The question is, given your previously stated thought process of appealing to tradition, would you have seen the injustices of slavery (if you were living in that time) to see that an amendment was warranted



Obviously yes, given that we also recognize how abortion bans are so much like slavery



> No doubt that there were many who had mindsets likes yours back then who thought that slavery issues was "settled law" and in their mind, no corrections were needed.



You thought the anti-liberty abortion ban laws needed no correction. We were like the abolitionists, and successfully worked to change those anti-liberty laws.

It's all about liberty. We back it, you oppose it.


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