# What is your background/interest in the Middle East?



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Roadby suggested the other day that people post their qualifications or background on this topic, and I think it's a great idea.

It's not a contest, but I'm curious to know who might have lived in Qatar, who might have a degree in Arabic, or who might have spent every summer at Yeshiva camp!

So think of countries you have been to, any relevant degrees or publications, languages spoken....anything which really attaches you to the Israel/Palestine conflict and the ME region. 

I don't mind going first or last...but I'll hold off in case someone really wants to go first!

All off-topic spamming, abuse and tantrums will be ignored.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

> So think of countries you have been to, any relevant degrees or publications, languages spoken....anything which really attaches you to the Israel/Palestine conflict and the ME region.



Palestine was a Roman-invented name for Israel during the Roman Empire. Maybe, "attach" yourself to a history book? 

Here's your desperately needed history lesson for the day, gratis.   

Eminent Biblical Historian and Scholar Dr. Paula Fredriksen, Professor of Religion, Boston University; Ph.D, History of Religion, Princeton University; Diploma in Theology, Oxford University 


> The Judean revolt against Rome was led by [Jewish rebel] Bar Kochba in 132-135 CE. The immediate causes of this rebellion are obscure. Its result was not: [Roman Emperor] Hadrian crushed the revolt and banned Jews from Judea.
> 
> *The Romans now designated this territory by a political neologism, "Palestine" [a Latin form of "Philistine"], in a deliberate effort to denationalize Jewish/Judean territory. And, finally, Hadrian eradicated Jewish Jerusalem, erecting upon its ruins a new pagan city, Aelia Capitolina.*
> Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews by Paula Fredriksen - Book - Random House


PBS...


> Specializing in the history of early Christianity, Paula Fredriksen is author of two books and over a dozen articles on early Christianity. Among her numerous awards and honors are a National Endowment for the Humanities grant for University Professors and a Lady Davis Visiting Professorship of Ancient Christianity at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Her second book, From Jesus to Christ: The Origins of the New Testament Images of Jesus, received the Yale Press Governors' Award for Best Book in 1988. Fredriksen holds a Ph.D. in history of religions, ancient christianity, and Greco-Roman religions from Princeton University and a theology diploma from Oxford University. She served as historical consultant for the BBC production The Lives of Jesus and was a featured speaker and historical consultant for U.S. News and World Report's "The Life and Times of Jesus."
> Biographies | From Jesus To Christ - The First Christians | FRONTLINE | PBS


PBS...


> In 70 AD, after a siege marked by starvation and terror crucifixions, the Roman army broke through the walls of Jerusalem.  Not only did they kill thousands of Jews, they laid waste to the Temple, the only place on Earth, according to Biblical law, where Jews could worship God.
> 
> It was the death of the religion of Priests and sacrifices described by the Hebrew Bible.  But, it would not be the death of Judaism.  In the years ahead, some of the greatest religious minds in history would struggle to reinvent the religion of Moses and David.
> 
> *But, the Jews would be forced to work during a period of almost inconceivable bloodshed and turmoil.  They would watch their people be expelled from Jerusalem on pain of death and see the name of their homeland changed from Judea to Palestine*


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLypbbijk2I&feature=relmfu]The Gifts of the Jews - YouTube[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Well, Stoner's interest is spam.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Well, Stoner's interest is spam.



PFUCKTARD





"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

See what I mean.


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

My nephew married a girl from Palestine she  is awesome ,,he was teaching English there..she speaks four languages and they now teach together in the United Arab Emirates..they have the sweetest little girl ever, my grand niece.. a wee Scottish /palestinian lass


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> My nephew married a girl from Palestine she  is awesome ,,he was teaching English there..she speaks four languages and they now teach together in the United Arab Emirates..they have the sweetest little girl ever, my grand niece.. a wee Scottish /palestinian lass



Wow, interesting! 

There can't be too many Scottish-Palestinians in the world! But that would certainly give you an interesting view of the conflict. 



Again - all attempts to derail this thread with off-topic spamming and abuse will be ignored.


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## Iridescence (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roadby suggested the other day that people post their qualifications or background on this topic, and I think it's a great idea.
> 
> It's not a contest, but I'm curious to know who might have lived in Qatar, who might have a degree in Arabic, or who might have spent every summer at Yeshiva camp!
> 
> ...



My interest regarding the middle east is founded in personal superstition and my qualifications for.... posting..... is, in addition to that which so many unaware give of their abundance, intuition. 

It isn't too difficult to observe the exchanges of others.... finding treasures among their carelessly disgarded words, pathological fingerprints upon the page.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Iridescence said:


> My interest regarding the middle east is founded in personal superstition and my qualifications for.... posting..... is, in addition to that which so many unaware give of their abundance, intuition.
> 
> It isn't too difficult to observe the exchanges of others.... finding treasures among their carelessly disgarded words, pathological fingerprints upon the page.



Interesting! 

I'm not at all intuitive myself, so I don't think it would work for me, but I do agree that intuition is a very interesting way of reading other peoples' words. I often find that the most offensively racist comments come at times when people are least aware of what they are saying...as you say, those pathological fingerprints!


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## Iridescence (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Well, Stoner's interest is spam.



 JStone may very well be an eccentrically brilliant artist who struggles in presenting his material in a direct and unquestionable fashion. Perhaps JStone is a profoundly veiled Illusionist in which gauges the alptitude of his gazing audience by subjecting such to conspiring, spiraling psychological entrapments in which provokes, continually evoking complex thought that his audience becomes self-inflictive and irreversibly defective by merely being present to his service. Those few who do successfully withstand, with the simplicity and eloquence  that only such as JStone could possess, receive a trophied entitlement of his best effort toward belittling degradation of their, however successfully, applied logic.


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

Iridescence said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Stoner's interest is spam.
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOKociU8t_Q]Waynes World- Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt! - YouTube[/ame]


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## Iridescence (May 12, 2012)

Do you need cream for that?


Perhaps a "full drum" would help.



The middle eastern culture has been bleeding into ours for many decades, well before Bush's Bush.... Perhaps someone has the historical/spiritual capacity to be able to dismantle such within the board giving better detail to cultural conception.


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> _Wow, interesting! There can't be too many Scottish-Palestinians in the world!_


Hear! Hear! We may certainly address this lack of multiculturalism through the coordinated international effort of humanitarian relocation of palistanians, of course.


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN_sl5xf3Ww]Scottish Jews Stand Up for Palestinian Struggle For Freedom from Israel and Zionism - YouTube[/ame]


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> _Scottish Jews Stand Up for Palestinian Struggle For Freedom from Israel and Zionism_


See, folks, how easy it is! One coordinated international enterprise of humanitarian relocation of palistanians, and scottish problem of the lack of multiculturalism is solved, and palistanians are free from "Israel and Zionism", of course! A win-win!


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

I had a propose we move all the israelies to Utah


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKAUkXlwIVc]Mormon Garden of Eden was in America... - YouTube[/ame]


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyBUG1c1drk]Evidence of Jewish Indians in America - YouTube[/ame]


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

*Im sure it would all make sense to this guy...*

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr8xQUEtrkA&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL71C9D22A084DC9AC]Romney Baptism Of The Dead - YouTube[/ame]


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> _I had a propose we move all the israelies to Utah_


But then palistanians will, typically, show up claiming Utah was theirs for centuries.


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > _I had a propose we move all the israelies to Utah_
> ...



We will convert them to Mormonism... no worries..mormons are real "nice"


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXs0gp3jWo8]Muslims and Mormons - YouTube[/ame]


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


Yeah, whatever justifies arab harem 1001 night dreams, indeed.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Can we stay in topic here, please, folks?

Maybe leave the videos for other threads?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> I had a propose we move all the israelies to Utah



Ha! would surely like to see that happens.

Move the Palestinians there, and give us all less headaches!


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> Evidence of Jewish Indians in America - YouTube


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find.



Cool. Any particular books you've been impressed by? 

It might be good to come up with a bit of a reading list out of this thread as well.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find.



Which documentary was that?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find.
> ...



"Panther in the Basement" By Amos Oz is very recommended.

As for documentaries, I watched some, but my al time favourite is of course "Precious life". Once you start seeing it, you can't take your eyes off of the screen. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSxUkVv30ZI]Precious Life - Official Trailer - YouTube[/ame]


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## editec (May 12, 2012)

My interest in the Mid EAST is entirely based on how that events in that place effects my nation.


Behond that I really don't care who runs it, how they live, what their religion is or is not, etc.


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## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

I was a Christian fundamentalist for many years. Every church I attended was 100% pro Israel and Jewish people. They always had an American flag on one side of the stage and an Israeli flag on the other. All that I knew about muslims was that they were evil people and Islam was controlled by satanic forces.

Then one day I picked up a Quran and read it. It wasn't nothing like I had been taught in church. When I finished studying it I converted to Islam. That was 12 years ago.

Also, I started to analyze the problems in the Middle East from an objective point of view. It didn't take long to see that the main problem was Zionism and the rouge state of Israel. It had nothing to do with me being a muslim. I came that conclusion independent of my religion.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

editec said:


> My interest in the Mid EAST is entirely based on how that events in that place effects my nation.
> 
> 
> Behond that I really don't care who runs it, how they live, what their religion is or is not, etc.



Which country is that, Editec?


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> I was a Christian fundamentalist for many years. Every church I attended was 100% pro Israel and Jewish people. They always had an American flag on one side of the stage and an Israeli flag on the other. All that I knew about muslims was that they were evil people and Islam was controlled by satanic forces.
> 
> Then one day I picked up a Quran and read it. It wasn't nothing like I had been taught in church. When I finished studying it I converted to Islam. That was 12 years ago.
> 
> Also, I started to analyze the problems in the Middle East from an objective point of view. It didn't take long to see that the main problem was Zionism and the rouge state of Israel. It had nothing to do with me being a muslim. I came that conclusion independent of my religion.



Very interesting, Sunni Man!


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## Douger (May 12, 2012)

Ohio has Buckeyes.Nice tree.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> "Panther in the Basement" By Amos Oz is very recommended.



I'm a big Amos Oz fan, from the time I read 'My Michael' and his amazing short stories. 

On kibbutz, I started reading fiction first, and read him, Chaim Potok, Saul Bellow and Philip Roth. I learned so much about Jewish life and culture that I could never have picked up anywhere else, so I think they are great to recommend.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> My nephew married a girl from Palestine she  is awesome ,,he was teaching English there..she speaks four languages and they now teach together in the United Arab Emirates..they have the sweetest little girl ever, my grand niece.. a wee Scottish /palestinian lass


Ok. Now that your nephew married a Palestinian girl who happens to be nice, then that makes all the factual barbarism, terrorism, Islamic radicalism, and intolerance of the Palestinians untrue. 

What a total nincompoop.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> I was a Christian fundamentalist for many years. Every church I attended was 100% pro Israel and Jewish people. They always had an American flag on one side of the stage and an Israeli flag on the other. All that I knew about muslims was that they were evil people and Islam was controlled by satanic forces.
> 
> Then one day I picked up a Quran and read it. It wasn't nothing like I had been taught in church. When I finished studying it I converted to Islam. That was 12 years ago.
> 
> Also, I started to analyze the problems in the Middle East from an objective point of view. It didn't take long to see that the main problem was Zionism and the rouge state of Israel. It had nothing to do with me being a muslim. I came that conclusion independent of my religion.


Bullshit. All you are saying is that you were somewhat of a moron before, and even more of a moron after.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> I had a propose we move all the israelies to Utah


How about yu move to Gaza or some other Islamic shithole to see who they really are, instead of posting your garbage propoganda and broadcasting your ignorance.


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## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Bullshit. All you are saying is that you were somewhat of a moron before, and even more of a moron after.


Roudy, instead of coming to the thread just to attack people.

Why not read the objective of the OP and post _Your _personal thoughts on the Middle East.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit. All you are saying is that you were somewhat of a moron before, and even more of a moron after.
> ...



Shouldn't you be out perpetrating jihad?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Old Testament.


> Exodus 34:27: Then the LORD said to Moses, Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.


New Testament


> John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the king of Israel!


Quran


> Quran 10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.


*Arab American Journalist Joseph Farah: The Myth Of Palestine And Palestinians*


> The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.
> 
> Palestine has never existed  before or since  as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.
> 
> ...


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

If you are really interested, talk to some minorities who have left or fled Muslim countries to live in the US or other parts of the West. Who better to ask than someone who lived among Muslims, in many cases for generations.  You will find out how ignorant you really are.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Stone & Roudy - 

Enough with the spamming, name-calling and racist abuse. 

Either post your own links and experiences of the Middle East or fuck off.


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## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> Shouldn't you be out perpetrating jihad?


Same with you JStone.

Instead of coming to another thread just to attack people.

Let's hear your personal take on the Middle East situation, and what led you to that conclusion?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Shouldn't you be out perpetrating jihad?
> ...



Since jiihad is the only thing you really know about your own religion started by a caravan hijacking pedophile, today would be a great day to perpetrate jihad and maybe you'll get laid by those 72 whores in that bordello in the sky


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit. All you are saying is that you were somewhat of a moron before, and even more of a moron after.
> ...


Douchebag, you just admitted to everyone that after you read the Koran and converted To Islam, you started becoming anti Israel. Now how rare is that? Oh I'm sure it was all based on facts. Nothing to do with the Koran being a book of hate, conquest, and intolerance. Nothing to do with the hate that flows from mosques and the followers of Islam. No.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find.


Watch some documentaries on what Muslims do to each other and especially non Muslims. 

Not one of you has been truthful so far. Especially that Saigon piece of Shiite.


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## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

The title of the OP is "What is your background/interest in the Middle East?"

So Roudy and JStone.

Let's hear what your _personal_ views are about the subject?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The reason the pedophile false prophet muhammad turned against the Jews is because after getting his ass booted out of mecca by his own people for being a charlatan, he desperately needed the Jews of Yathrib [Medina] to convert as the Jews were educated and prosperous.

However, the Jews had a REAL religion that they had established 2000 years before the pedophile muhammad was even born and they laughed at muhammad's ridiculous religion that said Abraham and Moses were really Arab Muslimes.

The Christians, too, had their religion started 600 years before the pedophile muhammad was born and they laughed at muhammad.

Islime is a total scam concocted by a caravan hijacking pedophile.  Muslimes have low standards for their so-called prophet.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I was a Christian fundamentalist for many years. Every church I attended was 100% pro Israel and Jewish people. They always had an American flag on one side of the stage and an Israeli flag on the other. All that I knew about muslims was that they were evil people and Islam was controlled by satanic forces.
> ...


What was interesting about that?  The guy converted to Islam and became a fucking Jew hating retard.  Duh!


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Stone & Roudy - 

PLEASE stop spamming the thread and attempting to close down the discussion. 

Seriously guys - given you have nothing at all to contirbure here, just show a little respect for your fellow posters and go back to your own threads. That way, your own threads won't get spammed in return.

btw. For anyone interested, I'll PM you my bio to avoid it being spammer here.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> ...hate...and intolerance. Nothing to do with the hate that flows...No.



It's really hard for me to believe that this was posted without a serious dash of irony! 

Honestly, Roudy - could there be anyone on this board as full of hate as you?!


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> ...are known mostly for illiteracy and ignorance of history



And more irony!!!


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Muslimes are known mostly for terrorism, illiteracy and ignorance of history, even the history of their own religion.

The pedophile muhammad plagiarized much of Judaism because he wasn't clever enough to develop his own belief system.  He plagiarized the Jewish concept of monotheisim, the sabbath, even the dietary kashruth laws that he merely renamed "halal"

Muslimes are self-hating because theirs is a bogus scam perpetrated by a cave-dwelling, caravan hijacking pedophile married to a 6 year old when he was in his 50s and who married his former daughter in law.  That's their "prophet"!


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

I'm going to abandon this thread to the spammers, but I'll start it again in a few weeks. 

I have a feeling one or two posters might not be on this board for very much longer.


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## daveman (May 12, 2012)

I lived in Oman for a year and a half.  Lived in a house in Muscat.  Shopped at the local stores.  Omanis are good people.

Many short visits to Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait.  I liked the locals.  Even shorter visits to Iraq and Afghanistan, but didn't get to meet any locals.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> The title of the OP is "What is your background/interest in the Middle East?"
> 
> So Roudy and JStone.
> 
> Let's hear what your _personal_ views are about the subject?


Just told you. Talk to people who have lived there as minorities. Talk to Christians, Jews, Bahaiis etc.  Islam is not tolerant, Islam is not peaceful. Islam is oppressive, backwards, anti freedom, anti progress, and persecutes women and minorities. Muslims are always mourning or angry.  It is not a "loving" religion. It is a religion you must submit to. Understand?  

 The Israel / Plaestine conflict is based on Muslim hatred and intolerance.  Remove that from the picture, the conflict is non existent. That is the truth. 

Ps. You know jackshit about the Koran. Muslims prey on weak and ignorant morons like you.


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## Caractacus (May 12, 2012)

My interest in the Middle East is purely historical and about the current political situation there, well.. I frankly don't care and I think that the Israelis and their neighbors can blow each other to kingdom come for as much as I care. Far too many Americans for some odd reason take way too much interest in the doings of warring Middle Easterners.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > The title of the OP is "What is your background/interest in the Middle East?"
> ...



Palestine was a Roman invention.  The correct name of the country is Israel.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

daveman said:


> I lived in Oman for a year and a half.  Lived in a house in Muscat.  Shopped at the local stores.  Omanis are good people.
> 
> Many short visits to Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait.  I liked the locals.  Even shorter visits to Iraq and Afghanistan, but didn't get to meet any locals.



Cool....they must have been amazing countries to go to. Although I'm not ure Iraq is on my travel list for the immediate future.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> My posting is based on hatred and intolerance.  Remove that from the picture, the conflict is non existent. That is the truth.
> 
> Ps. I know jackshit about the Koran. Stormfront preys on weak and ignorant morons like me.



Finaly, a truthful statement! 

I agree with you Roudy, and commend you for that insight.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > "Panther in the Basement" By Amos Oz is very recommended.
> ...



I usually don't read Israeli novels, because most of the time I get bored by them. but this specific one was good. I also liked Michal Shalev's "Rachel's Vow" about the Jewish lifestyle in Russia and Israel in the last century. very good.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Being a fundamentalist on one side, then becoming a fundamentalist in the other.

That's like an orthodox that become an atheist and bashes religious people.

That kind of thing happens.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

> Quote: Originally Posted by Roudy
> My posting is based on hatred and intolerance. Remove that from the picture, the conflict is non existent. That is the truth.
> 
> Ps. I know jackshit about the Koran. Stormfront preys on weak and ignorant morons like me.



The Bible is among the most beautiful literature ever written, if not the most beautiful.

Quran, not so much.  Quran is mostly about muhammad's caravan raids, wars and his wives.  Reading the quran actually makes me sick to my stomach


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

OK, I might as well put mine in....what the hell.

I wasn't wildly interested in the conflict until 1984, when I went to Israel by chance. I was just backpacking around Europe, and friends were headed there. 

I stayed for a year, working on a kibbutz 1.5 kms from Lebanon. While there, I became fascinated by the conflict, especially after doing a short history course at Hadera. 

After that I read everything the kibbutz had, starting with fiction (Oz, Potok, Roth) to the commentaries written by outsiders (Raban, Lacy, Lamb) to the Jewish writers (Arendt, Hilberg, Harding) and the major works from the Palestinian perspective (Said's Orientalism, the Gilmours, Hanan al Shaykh etc). More important was just talking to Israeli and Palestinian people - a year of late nights in Tel Aviv, Amman and Beirut. It's that kind of thing the haters really miss out on. 

Years later I became a journalist, and returned to Lebanon, Syria and the Golan Heights and wrote 2 major features on those areas.I certainly haven't read everything, but I try to keep up with new material, and would guess I've read around 60 - 80 books on both the conflict and Holocaust history. This became important to me after I wrote about Birkenau and Babi Yar (Ukraine).  I have also published stories on Kurdistan, Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia and Ethiopia. 

In all, I have been to something around 15 Islamic countries, and have research and published material relating to most of them at some point. Some countries (Egypt, Indonesia, Turkey) I have now been to several times.


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## daveman (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > I lived in Oman for a year and a half.  Lived in a house in Muscat.  Shopped at the local stores.  Omanis are good people.
> ...


I was in the Air Force.  The assignment to Oman was voluntary, but the trip to Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't so much.  But it had to be done, and I was the guy to do it, so I went.  

What I learned from the Omanis, and from an Iranian kid whom I met there (he desperately wanted to get an American visa so he could go the the US and study) was that they're just like us -- only saddled with political and religious leaders who force hatred of Jews upon them.

Mr. Abdullah, an Omani national whom I worked with in the US Embassy in Muscat, once said to me in a discussion about Israel, "Mr. David, why can't people just get along?"

Mr. Abdullah is a wise man.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> OK, I might as well put mine in....what the hell.
> 
> I wasn't wildly interested in the conflict until 1984, when I went to Israel by chance. I was just backpacking around Europe, and friends were headed there.
> 
> ...



Wow. cool.

In which Kibbutz did you work in the north?


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> OK, I might as well put mine in....what the hell.
> 
> I wasn't wildly interested in the conflict until 1984, when I went to Israel by chance. I was just backpacking around Europe, and friends were headed there.
> 
> ...


Are you a Jew?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

daveman said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



What religion except islime specifically singles out Jews and Christians as targets for hatred, persecution and MASS MURDER?


----------



## Caractacus (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> The Bible is among the most beautiful literature ever written, if not the most beautiful.
> 
> Quran, not so much.  Quran is mostly about muhammad's caravan raids, wars and his wives.  Reading the quran actually makes me sick to my stomach



The Bible is a book of horrors, filled with murders, plundering, and other assorted cruelties- often at the express command of the Almighty (so the authors of the Bible say!). The Koran is simply the Bible's ugly little sibling and calling either of those books the Word of God is an insult to Him. The former contains the fabulous tales of the Jews, complete with genocidal warfare, pillaging excursions, rapine, etc., and the latter contains the fabulous tales of the Arabs, complate with complete with genocidal warfare, pillaging excursions, rapine, etc.

I'd dare say this is your inspiration for both:


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Caractacus said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > The Bible is among the most beautiful literature ever written, if not the most beautiful.
> ...



The "Bible" gave the world the 10 Commandments.

Enough said.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Lipush - 

I was on Dan. The springs for the Dan river were right there (Tel Dan), and when we used to go swimming, we could see Lebanon border warnings on the other side of the springs. 

It's hard not to be interested in the conflict when it is that close and that real. We have 3 katyusha attacks that year....


----------



## daveman (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Not interested in playing your game today.  

Your question in no way invalidates Mr. Abdullah's.


----------



## Caractacus (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> The "Bible" gave the world the *10 Commandments*.
> 
> Enough said.



Which are a part of the religious laws given to Moses and Aaron for the tribes of the Jews alone to follow.

It was a sad day for the world when the "Gentiles" became enamored of that book.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Are you a Jew?



No, not at all!!

In all seriousness, the ONLY reason I went to Israel was I'd heard that you could party there and not spend any money. I was 21 years old, totally näive, and had really no preconceptions at all. 

This was actually a good thing - I arrived with no idea at all who were good guys and who were bad.


----------



## Mr Natural (May 12, 2012)

I have no background and even less interest in the Middle East.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

daveman said:


> I was in the Air Force.  The assignment to Oman was voluntary, but the trip to Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't so much.  But it had to be done, and I was the guy to do it, so I went.
> 
> What I learned from the Omanis, and from an Iranian kid whom I met there (he desperately wanted to get an American visa so he could go the the US and study) was that they're just like us -- only saddled with political and religious leaders who force hatred of Jews upon them.
> 
> ...



Wow, that really is awesome stuff. 

And it also mirrors my own experience. 

I will always remember sitting on a balcony in Damascus with a Syrian family. They were all speaking English to be polite to their guests, but they got into a big argument which got very heated - was it about Israel? No. The US? No. They were arguing about why the kids school had such poor teachers. 

It was the mirror image of discussions I hear in Finland every week!


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush -
> 
> I was on Dan. The springs for the Dan river were right there (Tel Dan), and when we used to go swimming, we could see Lebanon border warnings on the other side of the springs.
> 
> It's hard not to be interested in the conflict when it is that close and that real. We have 3 katyusha attacks that year....



Wah, that's not cool. 

But I'm glad you had good time, at least, seeing how things for real.

I love the north very much, but I don't get to travel there at all, besides Haifa and the Arab villages nearby. The people of those villages are very kind.

Did you get to travel in our area as well? (the southern Negev)


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Are you a Jew?
> ...



That's a good starting point.


----------



## daveman (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > I was in the Air Force.  The assignment to Oman was voluntary, but the trip to Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't so much.  But it had to be done, and I was the guy to do it, so I went.
> ...


Everywhere you go, people are just people.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

daveman said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Except, where Jews are apes and pigs as taught in the quran


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > I was in the Air Force.  The assignment to Oman was voluntary, but the trip to Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't so much.  But it had to be done, and I was the guy to do it, so I went.
> ...



Sometimes we tend to forget that most of us are regular people who gain nothing of wars.

That reminds me, that my father and mother traveled abroad few years back, they were on the train, and when getting down from it, my father noticed a woman with a stroller, having hard time managing it from the train down to the station. Always the gentleman, my father asked if she needed help with the little one. She thanked him kindly and said "yes". After carrying the stroller down, she could hear his foreign accent, and asked curiously, after admitting she was Iranian, where did he came from. Natually, without thinking much, he said he was Israeli. The woman was all . She couldn't believe a Zionist will help a Muslim woman (she was with Hijab). my father felt embarrassed and walked away.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> Except, where Jews are apes and pigs as taught in the quran



And yet none of the posters on this thread who have spent real time in the Islamic world agree with you. 

You are as filled with hatred as any Muslim I have ever met, and I can't imagine why you think your ill-informed hatred is any better than theirs.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sometimes we tend to forget that most of us are regular people who gain nothing of wars.
> 
> That reminds me, that my father and mother traveled abroad few years back, they were on the train, and when getting down from it, my father noticed a woman with a stroller, having hard time managing it from the train down to the station. Always the gentleman, my father asked if she needed help with the little one. She thanked him kindly and said "yes". After carrying the stroller down, she could hear his foreign accent, and asked curiously, after admitting she was Iranian, where did he came from. Natually, without thinking much, he said he was Israeli. The woman was all . She couldn't believe a Zionist will help a Muslim woman (she was with Hijab). my father felt embarrassed and walked away.



That's a great story - our prejudices so rarely match the reality. But maybe that contact made her think also a little more....

I think it is really easy for all of us to believe the cliches and news images. Before I went to Africa I just thought of starving children and HIV and malnutrition and the animal life, and of course those things are there too, but there really is so much more that we NEVER see on TV. 

I wish everyone had a chance to visit Jerusalem and Damascus and Beirut to have their own firsthand look...


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Except, where Jews are apes and pigs as taught in the quran
> ...



And yet quran teaches 1.5 billion pedophile worshippers that their allah turned Jews into apes and pigs.


----------



## daveman (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


I never met anyone in Oman who felt that way.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

daveman said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



You need to get out more.  I've met Arabs shocked to learn that there are actual Jews having been taught that they all were turned into apes and pigs as per the shitty quran rag


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> You need to get out more.



Says the person who has never been to the Middle East to a person who has lived in Oman. 

You have to laugh, don't you?

He's quite right, Stone, I don't think I've ever heard a Muslim say anything remotely like that, and I have met ten times as many Muslim people as you have.


----------



## daveman (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...


You're kidding, right?

How many Middle Eastern countries have you lived in, again?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

daveman said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



I've met Arabs shocked to learn that Jews actually exist having been taught that Jews were all turned into apes and pigs.

I'm always amenable to educate the uninformed


----------



## Iridescence (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



This is interesting, JStone, you have been very demanding of attention with your blustering spews, so perhaps you could further elaborate on _*this particular point*_. 

Are you suggesting, as it may seem, the Palestinian want a divorce from the lineaged union with Israel. To the Palestinians, it is about independence and self-sustainability apart from being under Israeli control. Now, accordingly, this is said to mean the possession of land... and recognition as an independent state... However, to Israel, it is likely not at all about the land but rather more about the people, the genetics, the ownership of bloodlines. To allow Palestine their desired separation would mean to have bred a substantially equipped rival in which Israel has invested in to the point that such a separation would perhaps mean far more detrimental to Israel than the refusal to acknowledge and accommodate Palestinian demands does for Palestine. 

JStone, you seem accomplished at downsizing poster intellect and diminishing potential, so flare your corrective spew and help us to collectively understand what your point is if it is not a derivative of the above.

Israel is a pharmaceutical force. Anyone who does not understand why the importance to support Israeli agendas is what it has become may not understand what position our country is in as a historically recognized Christian nation. Quite the thorn, isn't it?


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



JStone - 

Answer the question.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Iridescence said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Your unintelligible gibberish aside, palestine was a Roman invention to call Israel.

Remember, so I don't have to remind you, again


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone - 

Answer the question. 

(The thing is - I am not trying to humiliate you here. I know you've never been to the Middle East, and that is just how it is. I'm not saying you should be ashamed of that. What I am saying is that you might show a little more maturity when dealing with people who so obviously have a deeper take on this issue than you do. You don't have to agree with every word people say, but you do have to understand that they are more qualified than you are, or will likely ever be. )


----------



## Iridescence (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...




_*WHY are such singled out may be the more appropriated question.  

JStone, would you like to present your insight as to WHY? Perhaps if we better understood the WHY, we would better, collectively recognize the WHO. 
*_


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone -
> 
> Answer the question.
> 
> (The thing is - I am not trying to humiliate you here. I know you've never been to the Middle East, and that is just how it is. I'm not saying you should be ashamed of that. What I am saying is that you might show a little more maturity when dealing with people who so obviously have a deeper take on this issue than you do. You don't have to agree with every word people say, but you do have to understand that they are more qualified than you are, or will likely ever be. )



SAIGON



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Iridescence said:


> JStone, would you like to present your insight as to WHY? Perhaps if we better understood the WHY, we would better, collectively recognize the WHO.
> [/B][/I][/COLOR]



I totally agree.

JStone - 

Either answer the question, or leave the thread.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Iridescence said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



The more "appropriated" question is why are you so dumb?


----------



## hjmick (May 12, 2012)

Is it just me, or is someone in this thread coming across as an arrogant, pretentious douchebag?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

hjmick said:


> Is it just me, or is someone in this thread coming across as an arrogant, pretentious douchebag?



You're lacking in self esteem.  We get it


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone - 

Why won't you answer the question?

Why not just talk like a normal person, and explain in your own words what your connection with the Middle East is, and why you post so much about it. 

No one is attacking you. I'm genuinely curious, and if you have a good reason, I'd no doubt be a bit more generous in my reading of your comments.


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> hjmick said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me, or is someone in this thread coming across as an arrogant, pretentious douchebag?
> ...


LOL, it only took a few seconds for idiot JStone to raise his hand and acknowledge he is the douchebag!!


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > hjmick said:
> ...



I noticed that, too!

I was thinking that probably everyone on this thread sounds a little arrogant when they talk about what they have done, but I wasn't going to insist it must be me!


----------



## Iridescence (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> ............ *palestine was a Roman invention to call Israel*.................




Vatican Seeks Control Over Jerusalem Holy Sites - Columns - theTrumpet.com by the Philadelphia Church of God



> *Vatican Seeks Control Over Jerusalem Holy Sites*
> 
> January 19, 2012 | From theTrumpet.com
> *Roman Catholic support of the Palestinian cause isnt what it seems.*
> ...



_*JStone, play nice, now.*_


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > hjmick said:
> ...



Who's the "douchebag"?  You worship a cave-dwelling, caravan hijacking con artist married to a 6 year old when he was in his 50s and who married his ex-daughter-in-law, who plagiarized Judaism and Christianity.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> Who's the "douchebag"?  The only person on this thread who can't explain his interest in the Middle East?



Yeah, that's about it.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > hjmick said:
> ...



And what is YOUR business in the middle east?


----------



## Moonglow (May 12, 2012)

My interest are historical sociology, as far as the Jews and Arabs, they have been at each others throats for years. War is nothing new there and will continue even if the Jews were not there. the jews give the Arabs a focus on their plight and how they want to free themselves of foreign control.


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> And what is YOUR business in the middle east?


I am part of the Ummah (global muslim community) in Islam.

Any where that muslim are being mistreated by non muslims is our business.

We believe in justice for our brothers and sisters.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And what is YOUR business in the middle east?
> ...



The ummah invented by a cave-dwelling, caravan hijacking con artist married to a 6 year old girl when he was in his 50s [pedophile] and who married his ex-daughter-in-law [incest]

You muslimes don't have very high standards for your fake prophet.


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## Moonglow (May 12, 2012)

What was cultural practices in ancient times is not the same cultural practices today. Even Christians lived in caves while writing their text.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And what is YOUR business in the middle east?
> ...



 

Iran Iraq War, 1 million dead
Lebanese Civil War, 250,000 dead
Algerian Civl War: 300,000 dead
Bangladesh Civil War: 500,000 dead
Black Sept., Jordan's King Hussein murders, expells 80,000 Palestinians
Syrian army kills 20,000 Syrians at Hama
Iraq gases hundreds of thousands of Kurds
1400 year conflict between Sunnis and Shiites
Fratricide between Hamas and Fatah
Syria/Hizballah assassinate Lebanese PM Rafik Hariri 

Alexis de Toqueville...


> I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And what is YOUR business in the middle east?
> ...



Yeah yeah I get it. That's your business in Islam. That's not what I mean.

I mean the Middle East. All the Ummah thing? Totally not an Islamic gig, because with all due respect, you might say you're all one and gathered and that, but so far it's only on paper, while "brother" Assad killing "brothers" in Syria, and we have yet to see your Ummah doing nothing more then scold him

So,once we have that cleard, I understand you have no real business in the Middle East? I mean you havn't been here at all.?


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> My interest are historical sociology, as far as the Jews and Arabs, they have been at each others throats for years. War is nothing new there and will continue even if the Jews were not there. the jews give the Arabs a focus on their plight and how they want to free themselves of foreign control.



There is an element of truth in that. I certainly agree that wars would continue in the ME even if Israel disappeared but at the same time - this does not justify the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

I have worked and lived in about 40 countries, My work caused me to visit many local people everyday and hire and train local staff to take over the running of the company, In the Middle East I started off in Lebanon then Jordan  I was then sent to start a new office in Iran After that I worked in the UAE and Qatar, before moving to Work in the US, Canada and Mexico, I  then chose to work in the Far East, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia. I then went to work for myself and started business's in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Kenya.

In every country i lived in I tried my best to learn the language and culture of the Locals, the saddest plight I heard was from the   Palestinian refugees, driven by force and fear from their homes and their country, and now even today unable to return to their native homeland


----------



## Moonglow (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > My interest are historical sociology, as far as the Jews and Arabs, they have been at each others throats for years. War is nothing new there and will continue even if the Jews were not there. the jews give the Arabs a focus on their plight and how they want to free themselves of foreign control.
> ...



spoils of war.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> while "brother" Assad killing "brothers" in Syria, and we have yet to see your Ummah doing nothing more then scold him



I don't agree with that - the Arab Union have been quite vocal in their condemnation of the violence in Syria. Surprisingly so, IMHO. 

It's also notable that what Arabic posters might say to each other on an Arabic forum, they may not always say here. 

Were western countries now still caught up in Iraq and Afghanistant there might be a case for regime with Arabic support, but Syria is an almost impregnable target: vast distances, terrible terrain for an invading army, and large cities well suited for guerilla warfare. 

I couldn't expect anyone to send troops into Syria.


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> I mean the Middle East. All the Ummah thing? Totally not an Islamic gig, because with all due respect, you might say you're all one and gathered and that, but so far it's only on paper, while "brother" Assad killing "brothers" in Syria, and we have yet to see your Ummah doing nothing more then scold him


Assad is Not a muslim; he is an Alawite. 

Every mosque in my local area is taking up collections and sending money to help the Syrian people with food and medical supplies.

That is considered humanitarian aid under U.S. law and is legal to do so.

It is up to each individual muslim to decide how to help the people there.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> I have worked and lived in about 40 countries, My work caused me to visit many local people everyday and hire and train local staff to take over the running of the company, In the Middle East I started off in Lebanon then Jordan  I was then sent to start a new office in Iran After that I worked in the UAE and Qatar, before moving to Work in the US, Canada and Mexico, I  then chose to work in the Far East, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia. I then went to work for myself and started business's in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Kenya.
> 
> In every country i lived in I tried my best to learn the language and culture of the Locals, the saddest plight I heard was from the   Palestinian refugees, driven by force and fear from their homes and their country, and now even today unable to return to their native homeland



That's an impressive list, Jos. I think anyone who has been to 40 countries is going to have a fantastic base for really understanding the world. And you have experienced a great range of cultures, there, too. Singapore, Zimbabwe and Beirut...that's some contrast!!


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



Yeah, well Hitler might have said the same about France, and Stalin about East Germany - that doesn't make it right.


----------



## Hossfly (May 12, 2012)

I'll start with the introduction to a thread I started on 5/11(yesterday) and then, at my own speed, add my background/interest in the ME. I would advise those who have not done so to please read the novel "Exodus" by Leon Uris (1958.) This is the very book that started my interest for Israel and the ME in June 1958 during a stop on my way to Germany at Wheelus AFB in Tripoli, Libya.  

This is the thread started 5/11.

A Short History: Israel Vs Islam 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Creator introduced Israel to the world, it was as if a master gardener had planted a beautiful, immaculate lawn of fescue to complement the flora and fauna of nature. All would have gone well, but around the year 610, Satan walked by and in his envy and jealousy, planted a stalk of dock in the yard. 
Fast forward to 2012 and we find the dock has almost completely choked off the fescue. But,hark, the Master Gardener has in his catalogue of plans, a recently discovered weed killer: the Zionist!
So there we have it and this is where it stands. And all lived happily everafter. 
__________________


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone - 

Please answer the question, or get off the thread.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> I'll start with the introduction to a thread I started on 5/11(yesterday) and then, at my own speed, add my background/interest in the ME.



PLEASE do not post 200 comments here, Hossfly. 

You are more than welcome to post your connection with the ME, but everyone has managed to do that in a single post, and I dare say you can too. 

Particularly not with 'Exodus' as your opening gambit.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > while "brother" Assad killing "brothers" in Syria, and we have yet to see your Ummah doing nothing more then scold him
> ...



With all due respect, we have seen how millions of people are being killed in Africa by regimes when nobody says nothing. Arabs and Israelis go through hell everyday without anyone caring. nearly 12,000 people were killed in Syria so far, and while they did made their voices heard, which is fine, that's all that there is.

This is no Europe 38, it's WORLD 2012.

For the sake of debate, the Arabs are not to be blaimed for this alone. We have seen that nobody really learns from history, except that we learn NOTHING from it


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > I mean the Middle East. All the Ummah thing? Totally not an Islamic gig, because with all due respect, you might say you're all one and gathered and that, but so far it's only on paper, while "brother" Assad killing "brothers" in Syria, and we have yet to see your Ummah doing nothing more then scold him
> ...



Ok fair enough, but single action, while is respected, sometimes is not enough as group action.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone - 

Please do not spam the thread in an attempt to close down the discussion. 

Please answer the question asked earlier - what is your personal experience of the Middle East, and/or, what Middle Eastern countries have you lived in?

Eveyrone else on this thread has posted about their own experience - you alone seem to lack the ability to post honestly and with respect for your fellow posters.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> My nephew married a girl from Palestine she  is awesome ,,he was teaching English there..she speaks four languages and they now teach together in the United Arab Emirates..they have the sweetest little girl ever, my grand niece.. a wee Scottish /palestinian lass



You, your nephew and his muslima should try opening a quran since the Roman invention of palestine to call Israel does not appear in the quran.

Israel, the correct name of the land, appears numerous times in the quran.

In fact, the entire surah 17 is entitled Bani Israel [Children of Israel]

Quran 10:93: We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.


----------



## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> With all due respect, we have seen how millions of people are being killed in Africa by regimes when nobody says nothing. Arabs and Israelis go through hell everyday without anyone caring. nearly 12,000 people were killed in Syria so far, and while they did made their voices heard, which is fine, that's all that there is.



I couldn't agree more!

I was in DR Congo last year - 3.8 million people died in what Africans call The African World War, involving nine national armies. It is the largest armed conflict since WWII. 

Globally, it has received only 15% of the coverage of Darfur and (surprise, surprise) I coudln't even sell my story. 

No one cares. 

But on the plus side, I did get to visit one of the world's great places, and met amazing people.


----------



## Moonglow (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Monroe or many presidents said about the Natives , many other peoples have done it tgroygh the centuries, shall all land taken over the alst 3000 years be returned?


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## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Ok fair enough, but single action, while is respected, sometimes is not enough as group action.


It has been reported on the news that Mujahideen are slowly making their way into Syria.

Hopefully, with their previous experience, they will be able to turn the tide and defeat Assad and his Alawite minions.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Ok fair enough, but single action, while is respected, sometimes is not enough as group action.
> ...



muslimes are peace-loving, right?  

Iran Iraq War, 1 million dead
Lebanese Civil War, 250,000 dead
Algerian Civl War: 300,000 dead
Bangladesh Civil War: 500,000 dead
Black Sept., Jordan's King Hussein murders, expells 80,000 Palestinians
Syrian army kills 20,000 Syrians at Hama
Iraq gases hundreds of thousands of Kurds
1400 year conflict between Sunnis and Shiites
Fratricide between Hamas and Fatah
Syria/Hizballah assassinate Lebanese PM Rafik Hariri

Alexis de Toqueville...


> I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find._


Conclusion - palistanian agitprop garbage is addictive for unsofisticated minds.


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> _You are as filled with hatred as any Muslim I have ever met,_


Ah, the "religion of peace".


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Ok fair enough, but single action, while is respected, sometimes is not enough as group action.
> ...



And then The Alawite people will be slaughtered by the Syrian people in an umpulse of wrath.

The Mujahideen? What good do more suicide bombers make?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > _You are as filled with hatred as any Muslim I have ever met,_
> ...



When muslimes aren't killing infidels, they're killing each other 

Iran Iraq War, 1 million dead
Lebanese Civil War, 250,000 dead
Algerian Civl War: 300,000 dead
Bangladesh Civil War: 500,000 dead
Black Sept., Jordan's King Hussein murders, expells 80,000 Palestinians
Syrian army kills 20,000 Syrians at Hama
Iraq gases hundreds of thousands of Kurds
1400 year conflict between Sunnis and Shiites
Fratricide between Hamas and Fatah
Syria/Hizballah assassinate Lebanese PM Rafik Hariri


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > With all due respect, we have seen how millions of people are being killed in Africa by regimes when nobody says nothing. Arabs and Israelis go through hell everyday without anyone caring. nearly 12,000 people were killed in Syria so far, and while they did made their voices heard, which is fine, that's all that there is.
> ...



Honestly speaking, I simply asked that question because while many people died, I care mostly for the Syrian children. Because children are children.

Most Israelis don't care about Syria though, because as the saying goes, "don't put your healthy body in a sick bed". I don't get how with seeing how many children already died there, people keep quiet. And I don't even talk about the Syrian soldiers that are capable of slaying the children of their own people. WHO DOES THAT?

If they're capable of killing their own kids, I don't want to even think what they would have done to Jewish children if given the chance.


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

I think Israel has quite clearly shown how an invading army should treat civilians, during cast lead  Why should you expect to be treated any differently?


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> _Before I went to Africa I just thought of starving children and HIV and malnutrition and the animal life, and of course those things are there too, but there really is so much more that we NEVER see on TV._


Typical. We rescued a klingon ship, stranded on the dark side of the Moon, and didn't make any TV either.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> I think Israel has quite clearly shown how an invading army should treat civilians, during cast lead  Why should you expect to be treated any differently?



Colonel Richard Kemp was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE), Military Division, on 25 April 1994 in recognition of his intelligence work in Northern Ireland in 1993, and was awarded the Queen's Commendation for Bravery for service as a commander in the United Nations Protection Force in Bosnia in 1994  He was promoted Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE), Military Division, in the New Year Honours 2006

Colonel Richard Kemp... 


> I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government&#8217;s Joint Intelligence Committee.
> 
> Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo]Goldstone Gaza Report: Col. Richard Kemp Testifies at U.N. Emergency Session - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> I think Israel has quite clearly shown how an invading army should treat civilians, during cast lead  Why should you expect to be treated any differently?



What you know about the way the IDF treated civilians is only from what you hear and see on TV. You think all that is shown on TV is 100% true?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find.
> ...



I don't remember. The sad part is watching the news and it is like Groundhog Day. It is the same thing over and over.

One Palestinian friend of mine used to live in Hebron before Israel gave him the boot. Somehow he got to to the US, became a citizen, and owns a local store. However, his wife and two pre teen daughters live in Jordan and for some stupid political reason they are not allowed to come to the US. He goes to Jordan two weeks a year on vacation to see his wife and daughters. It is a sad story, indeed. Of course broken families is not uncommon for Palestinians.


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Colonel Richard Kemp, Retired, now earns money by giving speech's


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> _I think Israel has quite clearly shown how an invading army should treat civilians, during cast lead_


Indeed, it was an excellent example, although had Israel behaved like some libyan gang of thugs now, it would've had much less problems.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Wish you could remember what i was. 

As for your Palestinian friend, it seems to me that life in the USA is always better than in the MidEast. Sad that wife and kid left behind, but, well, those things happen.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Colonel Richard Kemp, Retired, now earns money by giving speech's



Jos




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > I think Israel has quite clearly shown how an invading army should treat civilians, during cast lead  Why should you expect to be treated any differently?
> ...



The Press where not allowed into Gaza?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUJ4fF2HN4]Israeli TV airs Gaza doctor&#39;s pleas after children killed - ENGLISH SUBTITLES - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

*Former Gazan Nonie Darwish, Human Rights Activist, Founder, Arabs For Israel An Arab-Made Misery - WSJ.com *


> International donors pledged almost $4.5 billion in aid for Gaza earlier this month. It has been very painful for me to witness over the past few years the deteriorating humanitarian situation in that narrow strip where I lived as a child in the 1950s.
> 
> It is Hamas, an Islamist terror organization supported by Iran, which is using and abusing Palestinians... While Hamas leaders hid in the well-stocked bunkers and tunnels they prepared before they provoked Israel into attacking them, Palestinian civilians were exposed and caught in the deadly crossfire between Hamas and Israeli soldiers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



I know the story about the doctor's family. Sadly, it was a big screw up from our side, and there is no point trying to go around that. 

However, I was speaking in general. the media is known for mostly taking one side, and going on with what gives the mejor scoops. It changes sides like socks. Media hardly tells you the full picture most of the times, and at many times, it changes the facts.

If you want to know the truth, you have to speak to the people. When people speak to the Palestinians, they should also speak with Israelis in the Gaza vecinity, victims of Palestinian terror etc. That's the only way to get to the truth.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Egyptian-American Tawfik Hamid: Gaza Solution Is In The Hands of Palestinians 



> If Hamas had stopped pounding Israel with its rockets, Israel would not have launched its attack.
> 
> After Israel launched its military attack on Hamas military installations in Gaza in response to repeated attacks on Israeli civilians, the Arab street wasted no time in demonstrating with passion against Israel. In Europe, many Westerners also took part in the protests. As an Egyptian Muslim now living in America, I ask myself why the Arab street and its supporters in the West never show similarly strong response against Islamic terrorists who target innocents worldwide and explode markets full of predominantly Muslim civilians in Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, Turkey, etc. When you consider that the Israeli attack killed some 400 mostly Hamas militant in the first four days, the passive attitude of the Muslim world against the terrorists represents extreme hypocrisy. If it truly cared for Muslims' lives, it should have demonstrated in the same numbers and with equal vehemence against the Islamists who murder hundreds of thousands of their fellow Muslims, not to mention the Hamas slaughter of rival Fatah members - women and children included.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Honestly speaking, I simply asked that question because while many people died, I care mostly for the Syrian children. Because children are children.


Ironic how grieved you are about Syrian children.

Yet, right in your own back yard Palestinian children are murdered by the IDF storm troopers almost daily. 

And you unabashedly applaude their homicidal actions.


----------



## eots (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qkqzdgL3wo]Dr. Seuss - The Butter Battle Book - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



And for Palestinians it happens regularly. This is one of my favorite journalists. She also has a broken family.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5BDwEW6uw]Laila El-Haddad, Journalist, Author, Gaza Mom-The Autograph-09-21-2011 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVWk8qjsU8]Hamas Imposing Sharia Law In Gaza - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SAYIT (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> I think Israel has quite clearly shown how an invading army should treat civilians, during cast lead  Why should you expect to be treated any differently?




You conveniently make Saigon's and Lipush's point. That millions are killed elsewhere and all fools like you can do is spew your mindless hate for Israel.
In November 2008, 180 Fatah "freedom fighters" put down their weapons and crossed into Israel from Gaza. They did not fear for their lives which they volutarily placed in the hands of the Israelis, nor were they slaughtered (as would have been the case if the roles were reversed). No, their wounds were treated and they were provided with safe passage to the West Bank. The difference between the two sides is like night and day. You simply refuse to see the wart on your nose.


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

> Israeli military investigatorshave ordered an end to a probe into the deaths of 21 members of a Palestinian family during the 2009 military offensive on Gaza, saying there was "no war crime committed."
> 
> The al-Samouni family members and others died when a shell hit a Palestinian residential building. It was one of the most controversial incidents of the offensive.
> 
> ...


Israeli military closes investigation into deaths of 21 family members - CNN.com



> According to accounts by family members, on January 4, 2009, the first day of the Israeli incursion in the Zeitoun district, the Samouni clan were ordered out of their houses (most of them were later demolished[1]) by Israeli soldiers and told to gather in a nearby home. They were forced to move again to another building, with over 100 members in one home. On January 5, Israelis began demolishing the wall of the house. According to eyewitnesses, when one of the occupants went to alert the Israeli soldiers that people were inside, including women and children, the soldiers began to shoot at the house. After a short lull, the house was shelled and hit by missiles fired by the Israeli Air Force, severely damaging the building and killing and injuring the occupants.[4]
> 
> A total of 49 members of the Samouni extended family were killed, according to The Daily Telegraph and The Guardian newspapers, reporting from Zeitoun, while Newsweek divided the number killed into 29 family members and 19 others. Articles in Haaretz say just 21 family members were killed, and do not mention other deaths. A large number of the dead were women and children; the Telegraph reported that the dead were, "mostly women, children and elderly". It was reported by Haaretz that Givati Brigade commander Col. Ilan Malka, operating from a remote war room, and misinterpreting images captured by aerial drones, had concluded the house harboured combatants, and ordered the air force to strike it twice with missiles


Zeitoun incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1NCyAK3rDA&feature=related]Israel is Sorry, it&#39;s a Mistake - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SAYIT (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



PRESSTV? Really? And you wonder why no one salutes your camel crap?


----------



## SAYIT (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly speaking, I simply asked that question because while many people died, I care mostly for the Syrian children. Because children are children.
> ...



Camel crap from a Sunni man. What else is new?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Colonel Richard Kemp was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE), Military Division, on 25 April 1994 in recognition of his intelligence work in Northern Ireland in 1993, and was awarded the Queen's Commendation for Bravery for service as a commander in the United Nations Protection Force in Bosnia in 1994  He was promoted Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE), Military Division, in the New Year Honours 2006


Colonel Richard Kemp... 


> I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Governments Joint Intelligence Committee.
> 
> Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo]Goldstone Gaza Report: Col. Richard Kemp Testifies at U.N. Emergency Session - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Stuff it, dude. Laila El Haddad has more honesty in her little finger than you will find in the entire Israel government.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



She sucks goat dick


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly speaking, I simply asked that question because while many people died, I care mostly for the Syrian children. Because children are children.
> ...



Killing children is never a good thing in my book, and you never saw me applauding when children die.

Being a female, I was created in a way that I feel sympathy for a child's suffering. so when the IDF does sometimes things which are not good, you won't find me grinning.

But the IDF was made to protect Israelis from terrorists. I will not be happy for every action, but I will always back the people who're trying to protect me and my people. One cannot hold any grudge to me for that.

And isn't that a little hypocrite, that you say that? Or have you missed the Palestinian celebrations after the horrible murder of the FOGEL FAMILY?


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

*Israeli soldiers killed unarmed civilians carrying white flags in Gaza, says report*


> Israeli soldiers shot dead 11 unarmed Palestinian civilians carrying white flags during Israel's offensive in Gaza earlier this year, according to a report from Human Rights Watch, which said Israel had failed to investigate the killings adequately.
> 
> The deaths  including those of five women and four children  took place in seven separate incidents across Gaza in areas controlled by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF), where there was no fighting and no Palestinian fighters were nearby.










> *Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, the shooting of unarmed civilians has become the most controversial issue of January's war.*


Israeli soldiers shot dead 11 unarmed Palestinian civilians with white flags in Gaza offensive, claims report | World news | The Guardian


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _The sad part is watching the news and it is like Groundhog Day. It is the same thing over and over._


That's what palistanian agitprop garbage recycling is about, of course.


P F Tinmore said:


> _One Palestinian friend of mine used to live in Hebron before Israel gave him the boot. Somehow he got to to the US, became a citizen, and owns a local store. However, his wife and two pre teen daughters live in Jordan and for some stupid political reason they are not allowed to come to the US. He goes to Jordan two weeks a year on vacation to see his wife and daughters. It is a sad story, indeed. Of course broken families is not uncommon for Palestinians._


So, his jordanian bros gave him "the boot" and don't recognize his marriage either. Cool.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> *Israeli soldiers killed unarmed civilians carrying white flags in Gaza, says report*
> 
> 
> > Israeli soldiers shot dead 11 unarmed Palestinian civilians carrying white flags during Israel's offensive in Gaza earlier this year, according to a report from Human Rights Watch, which said Israel had failed to investigate the killings adequately.
> ...



There were cases in the past when Palestinian carrying white flags were armed and caused soldiers' injuries and deaths.

One cannot trust white flags.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Colonel Richard Kemp was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE), Military Division, on 25 April 1994 in recognition of his intelligence work in Northern Ireland in 1993, and was awarded the Queen's Commendation for Bravery for service as a commander in the United Nations Protection Force in Bosnia in 1994  He was promoted Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE), Military Division, in the New Year Honours 2006


Colonel Richard Kemp... 


> I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Governments Joint Intelligence Committee.
> 
> Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo]Goldstone Gaza Report: Col. Richard Kemp Testifies at U.N. Emergency Session - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> And isn't that a little hypocrite, that you say that? Or have you missed the Palestinian celebrations after the horrible murder of the FOGEL FAMILY?



I have not seen that, do you have a link?


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

"Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, "

White phosphorus on civilians was annoyingly used by both Palestinians and Israelis on civilians in both boarders, and needs to be stopped.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> "Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, "
> 
> White phosphorus on civilians was annoyingly used by both Palestinians and Israelis on civilians in both boarders, and needs to be stopped.



The use of WP as intended is lawful, birdbrain.  It's been used since WW I


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> Colonel Richard Kemp was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE), Military Division, on 25 April 1994 in recognition of his intelligence work in Northern Ireland in 1993, and was awarded the Queen's Commendation for Bravery for service as a commander in the United Nations Protection Force in Bosnia in 1994  He was promoted Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE), Military Division, in the New Year Honours 2006



Blah,Blah, thats the third time you have posted the same, lame post in this thread, how many times do you need until it's called spamming?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Colonel Richard Kemp was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE), Military Division, on 25 April 1994 in recognition of his intelligence work in Northern Ireland in 1993, and was awarded the Queen's Commendation for Bravery for service as a commander in the United Nations Protection Force in Bosnia in 1994  He was promoted Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE), Military Division, in the New Year Honours 2006
> ...



Jos




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> And isn't that a little hypocrite, that you say that? Or have you missed the Palestinian celebrations after the horrible murder of the FOGEL FAMILY?


The Fogel family tragedy was carried out by a band of criminal home invaders and was an isolated incident.

Whereas, the IDF storm troopers murder Palestinian children almost daily. And is approved and sanction by the Israeli government.

Big difference.    

Israelis and Palestinians in shock after Fogel family massacre | World news | guardian.co.uk


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> "Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, "
> 
> White phosphorus on civilians was annoyingly used by both Palestinians and Israelis on civilians in both boarders, and needs to be stopped.



Post a link to when Palestinians used White phosphorus shells on civilians


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And isn't that a little hypocrite, that you say that? Or have you missed the Palestinian celebrations after the horrible murder of the FOGEL FAMILY?
> ...



Sure.

Palestinian TV airs show praising Fogel family murderer - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Celebrating the Itamar Murder With Sweets: Happy in Gaza &#8211; Photos of Family, Murder Scene, Celebration | Solomonia

Palestinians Hand Out Sweets in Celebration of Massacre of Jewish Family -

Palestinians Celebrate Brutal Murder of the Jewish Fogel Family | Habledash

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUagyT78yo]Palestinians Celebrate after Brutal Murder of Fogel Family - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > "Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, "
> ...



What's a palestinian?

Former PLO Leader Zuheir Mohsen 


> The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.
> Zuheir Mohsen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > "Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, "
> ...


Don't hold your breath waiting for that Jos.

I'm still waiting for the Link she promised about "dozens" of Israeli children killed by Gaza bottle rockets fired into southern Israel.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > "Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, "
> ...



Sure.

White Phosphorous Mortars Fired from Gaza into Israel - Shalom Life

White phosphorus found in mortar shells fired from Gaza - Israel News, Ynetnews


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



The pedophile worshippers boast about human-shielding children and women.

You are one psychotic people.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel


----------



## mudwhistle (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> I watched a documentary on Palestine about ten years ago. It was the most disturbing thing I have seen. I couldn't sleep that night. Until that time I never knew about the conflict. Since then I have read everything I could find.



I wish you would talk about something else.

Maybe take up birdwatching.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > My posting is based on hatred and intolerance.  Remove that from the picture, the conflict is non existent. That is the truth.
> ...


Shove it up your Mohammad, Saigon.   You are actually trying to perpetuate this concept that Muslims are tolerant, peaceful people, and it's the Jews, Zionists, and the Christians today that are the terrorists and haters.  You might as well claim the moon is made of Swiss cheese but proving it is another thing.  Either you are extremely ignorant, or a shameless Jew hating  dipshit liar, and you're not even good at that.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > "Along with the use of white phosphorus on civilian areas, "
> ...



Muslime barbarians human-shielding their own children and women  

Muslimes are the lowest form of life.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


There is nothing in the pictures to indicate the "sweets" were being handed out because of the Fogel family murders.

Plus, there was No celebrations going on in any of the pictures.

Just more fake Zionist lies and propaganda.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Nothing is more barbaric than muslimes human-shielding their own children, wives and grandmothers

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...





> As of 2009[7] at least five mortars and at least one rocket[8] have been fired with warheads containing white phosphorus recovered from munitions that Israel fired on Gaza during Operation Cast Lead



The Palestinians are sending it back.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



Look at the links. Duah


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Nothing is more savage than muslimes boasting of human-shielding their own children, wives and grandmothers.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



in 2009. maybe. I'm speaking more in the lines of 2012.

Are you people only read what's convinient to you?


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


I looked at every one.

Nothing there to indicate "sweets" were being handed out _because_ of the murders.

Just photos of friends sharing food and talking.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> OK, I might as well put mine in....what the hell.
> 
> I wasn't wildly interested in the conflict until 1984, when I went to Israel by chance. I was just backpacking around Europe, and friends were headed there.
> 
> ...


Wow. Did you include the special laws they have for non Muslims in said Islamic countries. What it's like doing business as a Jew. The legal rights a non Muslim has verses a Muslim?  The institutional and cultural hatred that exists?  

Did you interview Israelis that come from Arab Islamic countries, and the treatment they received by their hosts?  Just about any idiot can claim to be a published writer. You must be an example of one. and I say that very loosely, the way you talk I doubt you even wrote a comic book. Ignoramus.


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I did, they show un-dated photos of people eating sweets from Pro jewish sites, is that all you have to go on?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Nothing is more barbaric than muslime scum boasting of human-shielding children and women

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You want a link to a Hamas website?


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



The first link btw, is Haaretz.

What's pro Israeli about it?


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...





> Rockets and mortars have killed 16 people within Israel up to 2008.[102] Most of those killed were civilians,* including four children.*



Dozens, huh?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



2008 was 4 years ago, in case you havn't noticed.


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

The broadcast was aired as part of a weekly show on the Palestinian state-run station called "For You," which focuses on Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in Israel. 


> Hakim Awad's mother sent her regards to her son,
> Awad's aunt then proceeded to describe her nephew as a "hero and a legend."
> 
> The unusual broadcast was reported by the Israel-based media watchdog organization Palestinian Media Watch


What mother would not send her regards to her son?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> The broadcast was aired as part of a weekly show on the Palestinian state-run station called "For You," which focuses on Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in Israel.
> 
> 
> > Hakim Awad's mother sent her regards to her son,
> ...



What mother wants her son to grow up to be a suicide bomber? A MUSLIME mother!


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> The broadcast was aired as part of a weekly show on the Palestinian state-run station called "For You," which focuses on Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in Israel.
> 
> 
> > Hakim Awad's mother sent her regards to her son,
> ...



If I killed children my mother would have banned me for sure.

Would you congrats your children if they did something like that?

Does the police or the FBI know about you?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



That was from *your* link.

Israel has done more than that in a day.


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## Jos (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...





> As of 2009[7] at least five mortars and at least one rocket[8] have been fired with *warheads containing white phosphorus recovered from munitions that Israel fired on Gaza during Operation Cast Lead*.[9][8][10][11][7] In 2006 militants claimed that chemical weapons had been used,[12][13] however the IDF stated they could not find evidence supporting the claim and no one had reported such a weapon landing in Israel.


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## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush reminds me of the typical German citizen during the Third Reich.

Or the average white citizen in apartheid South Africa.

They basically ignored what was happening all around them; as though in a cocoon of safety and tranquility.

Then when their world was shattered.

Claimed unrepentantly; they had No idea these horrible things were taking place.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush reminds me of the typical German citizen during the Third Reich.
> 
> Or the average white citizen in apartheid South Africa.
> 
> ...



I never said that Palestinians are not suffering. I never justified hurting innocent people on the Palestinian


You and your friends think that hurting innocent israelis is justified

and I don't have to tell how just how sick that is


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush reminds me of the typical German citizen during the Third Reich.
> 
> Or the average white citizen in apartheid South Africa.
> 
> ...



It is not her fault. Israelis are generally uninformed and misled about the conflict.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush reminds me of the typical German citizen during the Third Reich.
> 
> Or the average white citizen in apartheid South Africa.
> 
> ...



Nothing is more barbaric than muslime scum boasting about human-shielding children and women.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



99% of the attacks that Israel have gave gaza in the years past cast lead, was due to previous Palestinian provocation.

But dont let facts fool you


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush reminds me of the typical German citizen during the Third Reich.
> ...





> I never justified hurting innocent people on the Palestinian



You support Israel and that is what Israel does.


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## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > The broadcast was aired as part of a weekly show on the Palestinian state-run station called "For You," which focuses on Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in Israel.
> ...


Well we know quite a lot about you Lipaz, and one can only hope the invading troops treat israeli civilians with the same velvet gloves the IDF treats Palestinians, but then again your not a civilian, are you?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush reminds me of the typical German citizen during the Third Reich.
> ...



Unlike the big brave Pro Palestinian Americans, that talk about the conflict while eating burgers and french fries, thousands of miles away.

Don't make me laugh


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



What muslimes do is human-shield children and women

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> I'm going to abandon this thread to the spammers, but I'll start it again in a few weeks.
> 
> I have a feeling one or two posters might not be on this board for very much longer.


You have a feeling or you want to censor people's opinions that are contrary to the bullshit you are promoting, like it's some Muslim shithole?


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Like the Palestinians defending themselves from the occupation.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



How do you describe a civilian?

(And I am a civilian, by the way).

And for last, don't fool yourselves. You know nothing about me.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Like Israelis defending themselves against terrorism.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Jews occupy Israel?


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You can't defend yourself from occupation if the land wasn't yours to begin with, and you never called yourself Palestinian until 1964.  What you are rooting for is aggression and terrorism.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I support the Israeli *people* and the need to defend Israeli *civilians*. I feel no joy if defending us will cost any child's blood.

Get that into your head.


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## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> How do you describe a civilian?
> 
> (And I am a civilian, by the way).
> 
> And for last, don't fool yourselves. You know nothing about me.


Since basically all Israeli's must do military service. (except those in yeshiva)

There are No Israeli civilians.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > How do you describe a civilian?
> ...



All muslimes must human-shield children and women. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


Yes,  if Jews occupy Israel, then Muslims occupy Mecca, and Catholics occupy the Vatican.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



What sources do you use that does not come out of Israel?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > How do you describe a civilian?
> ...



Once you leave the Army, you're a civilian. and not all Jews serve in the Army.

But keep lying to yourself, to feel better.

That probably helps.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Your sources are, what, hamas? No rep points for you


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Mostly none. not usually. Israeli press does report about the happenings in Israeli, just like official press in any other country in the world.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > How do you describe a civilian?
> ...


So those kids and mothers with infants in pizza parlors that the Pali animals murder aren't civilians?  

Douchebag doesn't know the the definition of civilians now.  Notice, this is the filth that represents Islam. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



They were cruel occupiers. Grrrr.

Hadas fogel was also a cruel occupier Zionist criminal. 3 months old, but who gives a crap.


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


You are not a civilian, you are a former IDF, you are adopted in the squatter nation
your best hope is that the invading force treats you as a civilian, but dont trust in a white flag


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Like the Palestinians defending themselves from the occupation._


But it's their occupation!


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



I'm a *former* IDF. you said it yourself, now I'm civilian.

I am also adopted, true. Which makes no difference whatsoever.

And why you keep telling yourself that foreign armies will come here? le them go to syria and let innocent Jews be.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



Nothing more savage than muslimes human-shielding civilian children and women 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



Not a Palestinian white flag. No faith in the Ishmaelites.


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > How do you describe a civilian?
> ...



That is true. The nationals of an occupying power are not considered "civilians" by the Forth Geneva Convention. The term they used was protected persons because all civilians are not protected. Using the term civilians when it comes to Israelis is misleading.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



What's a palestinian?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



That's what I'm asking


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



So how do you describe Israeli citizens.

If taking that to mind, Then Americans are not Civilians.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Terrorism is an Israeli propaganda term.

Israel calling the Palestinians terrorists is like the coal mine calling the kettle black.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


Jos jos jos, stop the Iranian IslamoNazi fantasies of jerking off to the destruction of Israel. Besides, what's an Hezbollah pig boy like you doing living in the West living among all the Kuffar sinners?


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


And therefore does Israel have the right to defend itself against said Islamic murderous savages that do not show any distinction towards civilians?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



"Terrorism is an Israeli propaganda term."

Terrorism is a fact in field.

You can paint the Palestinian as a sheep, but it still won't make the fangs disappear


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Israel occupies Palestine therefore Israeli nationals are not considered "civilians" by the Forth Geneva Convention. Considering that, Palestinian attacks are not terrorism.

I can agree with that.


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No the US state dept and most Western nations including the Europeans have clearly officially labeled Hamas a terrorist organization. Big difference


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The US, EU and Australia classify Hamas as terrorists.

No rep points for you


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> _Since basically all Israeli's must do military service. (except those in yeshiva)There are No Israeli civilians._


Cool. Since there's no palistanians military, there're no "palistanian civilians".


----------



## Jos (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



What goes around, comes around Lipaz, Israel has been messing in so many countries
in order to get others to fight her wars, just wait till it comes out who masterminded the twin towers attack, the Madrid bombings and the London tube bombs, not forgetting what happened in Bali, enjoy


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



*So you agree with killing innocent Israeli children?*

Please put all cards on the table and answer honestly, so I will know exactly how discuss things with you.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Not really. The Palestinians do not attack outside their country and they only attack occupiers.

That is not terrorism.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



One day the world will cry out "why didn't we listen to the Israelis".

Can't wait for that to happen. I will bet my on life, it will.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Really, the palestinians human-shield their own children and wives

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



the Ishmaelities of Gaza and Judea and Samaria have no country. They are illegal occupiers on a Jewish land. they don't belong.

They attack outside their boarders and territories to innocent citizens in the south.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



Not forgetting Banu Quraiza and Khaibar.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Jews in Israel are occupiers?  Aren't palestinians arabs from arabia occupying Israel?

No reputation points for you


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _The Palestinians do not attack outside their country and they only attack occupiers._


Since palistanians haven't had a "country" in the first place, we may dismiss the contention as drivel, of course.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Pals are terrorists attacking Jews in their country Israel


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...





> US state dept



Do you mean the Israeli stooge department?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



You should read the 1949 UN armistice agreements.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Why, since they are non-binding and worthless?


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> _Israel has been messing in so many countries
> in order to get others to fight her wars,_


Funny, and what might those "so many countries" be? Outside of the typical arab lame excuses, of course.


Jos said:


> _just wait till it comes out who masterminded the twin towers attack, the Madrid bombings and the London tube bombs, not forgetting what happened in Bali, enjoy_


Cool drivel!


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

> Quote: Originally Posted by Jos
> Israel has been messing in so many countries
> in order to get others to fight her wars



Israel has fought its own wars and has fucked over the arabs and muslimes each time.

Go sit in the dunce corner.


 Jos


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _You should read the 1949 UN armistice agreements._


We did, and found no palistan sheikh signatures on them too. Funny fact, indeed.


----------



## eots (May 12, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVglLsYkoHg]Israel was born out of Terrorism - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > _You should read the 1949 UN armistice agreements._
> ...



That is true. That war has not ended.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Arabs are perpetually at war which is why they are so fucked up.

Israel is one of the most advanced, successful countries in the world.


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Because Arabs still believe in the stupid idea that they can destroy Israel and throw all Israeli Jews to the sea.

Until they give up that madness, the war will continue


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...



Why should the Palestinians surrender when they are getting the upper hand?


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> the Ishmaelities of Gaza and Judea and Samaria have no country. They are illegal occupiers on a Jewish land. they don't belong.


LOL, now the "true" Zionist fascist you "really" are has finally surfaced!!   

All of this time you claimed that Israel wasn't an apartheid state.

And you didn't understand why people would accuse it of genocide.

Now the truth has poured of your mouth Lipush.

You, little miss civility; are just another racist Jew filled with hate.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

United States Senator Daniel Inouye, President Pro Tempore of the US Senate, Awarded Medal of Honor, Purple Heart, Distinguished Service Cross, Bronze Star...


> If one looks at most of this world, especially the Middle East, one country stands out as a foundation of stability and as a pillar of democracy. And at a time like this, when you have revolution in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan, thank God we have Israel.
> 
> Top senator: An attack on Israel is an a... JPost - International


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > the Ishmaelities of Gaza and Judea and Samaria have no country. They are illegal occupiers on a Jewish land. they don't belong.
> ...




I see myself more like a "truth seeker".

The Land belonged to the Jews much before any Arab was here.

Even YOU know it's a fact


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

And what does Apartheid has to do with the fact that the Arabs of Gaza and WB don't belong in Israel? Duh.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

United States Senator Daniel Inouye, President Pro Tempore of the US Senate, Awarded Medal of Honor, Purple Heart, Distinguished Service Cross, Bronze Star...


> If one looks at most of this world, especially the Middle East, one country stands out as a foundation of stability and as a pillar of democracy. And at a time like this, when you have revolution in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan, thank God we have Israel
> 
> Top senator: An attack on Israel is an a... JPost - International


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



When did *that* happen?


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

United States Senator Daniel Inouye, President Pro Tempore of the US Senate, Awarded Medal of Honor, Purple Heart, Distinguished Service Cross, Bronze Star...


> If one looks at most of this world, especially the Middle East, one country stands out as a foundation of stability and as a pillar of democracy. And at a time like this, when you have revolution in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan, thank God we have Israel..
> 
> Top senator: An attack on Israel is an a... JPost - International


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

And I didn't say "surrender".

I said giving up the idea of giving the Jews a second holocaust.

Nice to know that if the Arabs don't kill anymore Jews, for you it's surrending.

Someone swallowed to much Hamas propaganda here...


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

United States Senator Daniel Inouye, President Pro Tempore of the US Senate, Awarded Medal of Honor, Purple Heart, Distinguished Service Cross, Bronze Star...


> If one looks at most of this world, especially the Middle East, one country stands out as a foundation of stability and as a pillar of democracy. And at a time like this, when you have revolution in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan, thank God we have Israel.
> Top senator: An attack on Israel is an a... JPost - International


----------



## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Indeed, palistanians are still looking for sheikhs.


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


The only "truth" about you Lipush.

Is that you are a rabid Zionist; and not much different in ideology than your mentors, the Nazi's.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



United States Senator Daniel Inouye, President Pro Tempore of the US Senate, Awarded Medal of Honor, Purple Heart, Distinguished Service Cross, Bronze Star...


> If one looks at most of this world, especially the Middle East, one country stands out as a foundation of stability and as a pillar of democracy. And at a time like this, when you have revolution in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan, thank God we have Israel.
> 
> Top senator: An attack on Israel is an a... JPost - International


----------



## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Didn't you say earlier that all the worlds problems start and end with Zionism?

Didn't you justify killing of Israeli children?

You need to do some self checking before pointing at me, pal.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Jos said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


Wow, can you believe the lunacy of this Iranian Islamist piece of shiite? It's basically blaming Israel for every atrocity Muslims have committed. Apparently the mental sickness has no limit.  I bet you Jos checks under its bed to make sure there are no Jews hiding there before it goes to sleep.  Islam is the biggest lunatic asylum in the world.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> And I didn't say "surrender".
> 
> I said giving up the idea of giving the Jews a second holocaust.
> 
> ...



Not really. The Zionists started a war with the Palestinians a hundred years ago and that war continues today. Israel has won nothing yet, except an occupation.

The Palestinians have the legal and moral high ground and the world is starting to see that.

The 1949 UN armistice agreements will give you some background on what I am saying.


----------



## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And I didn't say "surrender".
> ...



You just made that up.  No rep points for you.

The Arabs went to war with Israel.


----------



## Sunni Man (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Didn't you say earlier that all the worlds problems start and end with Zionism?
> 
> Didn't you justify killing of Israeli children?
> 
> You need to do some self checking before pointing at me, pal



1) Zionism is pure evil; and the bane of the world.

2) Read my posts; the killing of Jewish children is wrong. Period.

3) I am not your "pal".


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


The Nazis mentored Muslims. Would you like me to educate your ignorant ass again, Abdul?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't you say earlier that all the worlds problems start and end with Zionism?
> ...



Do you know any Zionists peronally to make such a rediculous claim?

Do you know any Jews or any Israelis personally?

Have you ever been in the Middle East?

From been a Christian brainwashed man, it seemed you've become a Muslim brainwashed man.

What different does it make, if you can't see the gray area?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Islime = Nazism

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUEx1cKUlg]1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler - YouTube[/ame]


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Why should the Palestinians surrender when they are getting the upper hand?_


Why is there almost always something pervy about them?


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And I didn't say "surrender".
> ...


Jews re-established the state of Israel in the ancient homeland of their ancestors in 1948.  It has been wildly successful in every way possible and against all odds, and will continue to do so. Does that bother you?  Good. Keep burning.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And I didn't say "surrender".
> ...



If the Palestinians have back up, why doesn't the UN recognize "Palestine" like it did Israel?

Which war did the Zionist opened? The Arabs opened the war in 1948.


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



When, exactly, did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists?


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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The Toulouse carnage?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Most Israeli Jews are indigenous to Israel and the Near East dating back 3000 years.

fakestinians are egyptians and saudis who invaded Israel a few years ago.

No rep points for you


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Lipush said:
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Was that before 1948?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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Er, Jewish Israel was established ca. 1000 BCE.  No rep points for you


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The Palestinians were known to be Jews only.


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## Lipush (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You didn't say anything previous to 48, you asked a general question.

The Jews where in Israel before the Arabs, though. that's a fact. fact that the sunni guy seems upset with, for some reason.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Lipush said:
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Tru dat.


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Lipush said:
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We were discussing who started a hundred year old war and you post a recent attack. How is that relevant?

My grandparents are from England, Germany, and Scotland. Does that mean I am not American?


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Israel was established 3000 years ago, 3000 years before palestinians were even invented.  Jews have an unbroken presence in Israel since 1200 BCE.

No rep points for you


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _When, exactly, did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists?_


Since the establishment of the palistanian matrix, of course!


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

> This message is hidden because JStone is on your ignore list



Life is good.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> > This message is hidden because JStone is on your ignore list
> 
> 
> 
> Life is good.



PFUCKTARD





"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale"


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _My grandparents are from England, Germany, and Scotland. Does that mean I am not American?_


It does, of course. Rushmore to the natives!


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## eots (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Lipush said:
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sdiAl9OayA]Shlomo Sand; The Invention of the Jewish People - YouTube[/ame]


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Ironically, it turns out the OP and 95 percent of the posters have zero backround in the Middle East, after all.  No surprise, there.


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## docmauser1 (May 12, 2012)

eots said:


> _Shlomo Sand; The Invention of the Jewish People_


Damn! Even a jewish idiot can command the masses! Talk about the chosen ones, of course.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

> Quote: Originally Posted by eots
> Shlomo Sand; The Invention of the Jewish People



Fucktard, Shlomo Sand teaches French history, not Jewish history.  You muslimes are the dumbest shits on the planet

Jesus Christ was Jewish: Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."


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## Hossfly (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > I'll start with the introduction to a thread I started on 5/11(yesterday) and then, at my own speed, add my background/interest in the ME.
> ...


Very well Miz Know-it-all who wants to arrange, edit and approve accounts of people who have experiences far beyond anything you can even imagine. You have no idea of some of the people on this thread who have lived in mid-East countries and know of what they speak. You are too dense to realize they have had their fill of your pompous,overbearing posturing. You have become the mouse that the cats are toying with.Have fun writing about *my*background/interest in the ME. I am anxious to see what I really did.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Saigon is a proven poseur with zero knowledge of Middle East history.


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## Hossfly (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


Dozens.


Major Palestinian Terror Attacks Since Oslo


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Lipush said:
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jewishvirtual*lie*brary.org


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale"


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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> ...



Many Israeli grandparents were born in Europe or the middle east. Does that mean they aren't Israeli?


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone said:


> Ironically, it turns out the OP and 95 percent of the posters have zero backround in the Middle East, after all.  No surprise, there.



Actually, you, Roudby and Hossdly seem to be the only one with no connection at all to the Middle East. 

We have at least three posters here who have lived in the region, a few others who have visited, and some with family connections and things like that.

I don't think it would be a surprise to anyone that the people who have personal experience of the region are also the ones who seem to have the most interesting views of the region.


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Israelis seem to believe that Palestinians whose parents and grandparents were born in Palestine are not Palestinians.


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israelis seem to believe that Palestinians whose parents and grandparents were born in Palestine are not Palestinians.



The nutcases here might pretend to believe that - I doubt many Israelis do. 

From Haifa you can literally see the Palestinian city of Akko - where Palestinians have lived continuously for 2,000 years or so. From Tel Aviv you can literally see Jaffa - with an even older history. 

I don't think many Israelis enjoy watching Americans lying about their country.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Israelis seem to believe that Palestinians whose parents and grandparents were born in Palestine are not Palestinians.
> ...



*Arab American Journalist Joseph Farah: The Myth Of Palestine And Palestinians *  


> The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.
> 
> Palestine has never existed &#8212; before or since &#8212; as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.
> 
> ...


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone - 

All spamming of this thread will be ignored. 

I know you are embarassed, I know you are hurt and bitter, but spamming the thread so that no one witnesses your humiliation is not an effective method of learning.


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## JStone (May 12, 2012)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Most Israeli Jews are indigenous to Israel and the Near East.  A million Jews lived in Egypt during the time of Alexander the Great and Ptolemy 1000 years before any arab trash invaded.

The Hebrew Bible was translated into the Greek Septuagint in the 3rd century BCE to serve the large Jewish community in Egypt.

Eminent Historian Sir Martin Gilbert, Author of 10 Books on Middle East History and History of Jerusalem-----

Jerusalem became the capital of the first Jewish kingdom in 1004 BC, over 3000 years ago.  With the brief exception of the Crusader period, no other non-Jewish ruling power of Jerusalem made the city a capital but it was consistently a capital for the Jews.  Driven into partial exile by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC, the Jews returned fifty years later and rebuilt Jerusalem as their capital.  It was their capital, too, under the Maccabees.  The unity of the city achieved in 1967, then, was more than a quirk of military geography.  It was the fulfillment of unbroken historical longings.

In 1210, following the defeat of the Crusaders, groups of Jews began to return Jerusalem.  Henceforth, without interruption, and in every decade, individual Jews and groups of Jews reached the city from the Maghreb [north Africa] and elsewhere forming an ever-growing community.  Driven out by the Tartar invasion of 1244, they had returned by 1250.  Three times a day the Jews repeated in their prayers, "And to Jerusalem Thy city mayest thou return to mercy, and dwell in its midst as Thou hast spoken, and rebuild it soon in our days for evermore

Areas from which some 300 Rabbis travelled to Jerusalem, Acre and Ramla in 1210 AD, to strengthen the Jewish communities weakened by the Crusader massacres and expulsions.  Jews are known to have traveled from throughout the region to Jerusalem [after 1267], settling permanently and forming by 1841 the largest single community in Jerusalem.    

1000 AD: Jews take part in the defence of Haifa against the Crusades

1099:AD: Jews take part in the defence of Jerusalem against the Crusaders 

1211: Several Rabbis from France and England settle in Jerusalem 

1267: Maimonides arrives in Jerusalem and establishes a synagogue .  During the next 500 years, Jerusalem is reinstated as a centre of Jewish learning.

In 1500, there were an estimated 10,000 Jews living in the Safed region

1563: Establishment of a Hebrew printing press in Jerusalem, the first printing press on the Asian Continent

By 1880 the Jews formed the majority of the population Jerusalem      

During the 17th and 18th centuries, many Jerusalem Jews, scholars and rabbis, travelled from Jerusalem to teach in Jewish communities elsewhere, and also to seek alms and charity for the poorer members of their own community.  there was also a regular movement of families, in both directions, between Jerusalem and several towns of the eastern Mediterranean region

Jewish villages in Israel 1855--1914...

Deganya
Jerusalem
Safed
Tiberias
Kinneret
Merhavya
Zikhron Yacov
Ekron
Mikveh Israel
Rishon le-Zion
Ben Shemen
Rehovot
Hulda
Kastinia
Artuf
Hebron
Ruhama
Beer-Toviya
Hartuv
Gedera
Kfar Uriya
Motza
Nes Ziona
Beer Yaakov
Nahalat Yehuda
Mahane Yehuda
Ein Ganim
Petah Tikvah
Kfar Sava
Kfar Mahal
Hadera
Gan Shmuel
Nahliel
Karkur
Givat Ada
Bat Shelomo
Tantura
Shefeiya
Yavneel
Beit Gan
Kfar Tova
Poriya
Sejera
Menahemya
Beitanya
Mizpa
Kfar Hittim
Bnei Yehuda
Mishmar Hayarden
Ayelet Hashashar
Ein Zeitim
Metulla
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/GilbertsThe-Routledge-History-Historical-Hardcover/dp/B0041CNUIC/ref=sr_1_24?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1333126978&sr=1-24]Amazon.com: Martin Gilbert'sThe Routledge Atlas of Jewish History (Routledge Historical Atlases) [Hardcover](2010): M., (Author) Gilbert: Books[/ame]


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## Saigon (May 12, 2012)

JStone - 

As mentioned earlier, all spamming will be ignored - but may also be reported to the Moderators. 

By my count you have now posted around 50 times on this thread without ever once responding to the topic on the thread. Your only purposes have been to close down debate and force posters off the thread - you may ask yourself whether Moderators welcome that kind of thing.


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## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Interesting, this is one of the doctors in that documentary. What a coincidence.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUh6xVlndhM&feature=related]Israeli TV airs telephone call to father after children killed -English - YouTube[/ame]


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]
Alexis de Toqueville...


> I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Tinmore - 

Interesting stuff. The 'Precious Life' video looks well worth seeing, just based on that trailer. 

The relationship between Israelis and Palestinians is so complex, because so many do co-operate and work together at times - and then fight each other with astonishing cruelty at other times. It really is perverse. Using the story of a sick child to highlight that kindness/cruelty is very clever.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Tinmore -
> 
> Interesting stuff. The 'Precious Life' video looks well worth seeing, just based on that trailer.
> 
> The relationship between Israelis and Palestinians is so complex, because so many do co-operate and work together at times - and then fight each other with astonishing cruelty at other times. It really is perverse. Using the story of a sick child to highlight that kindness/cruelty is very clever.



Former PLO Leader Zuheir Mohsen  


> The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.
> Zuheir Mohsen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Tinmore -
> 
> Interesting stuff. The 'Precious Life' video looks well worth seeing, just based on that trailer.
> 
> The relationship between Israelis and Palestinians is so complex, because so many do co-operate and work together at times - and then fight each other with astonishing cruelty at other times. It really is perverse. Using the story of a sick child to highlight that kindness/cruelty is very clever.



There are a lot of good people on both sides of the isle. If you look at the daily lives of both people you will not find a dimes worth of difference between the two.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Tinmore -
> ...





> My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but allah, we will chase you everywhere  We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no better blood than the blood of the Jews.  We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood, we will not rest until you leave the Muslim countries.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rleFpY402vM]Palestinian - Terrorism - YouTube[/ame]


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> There are a lot of good people on both sides of the isle. If you look at the daily lives of both people you will not find a dimes worth of difference between the two.



That really is true. 

And I think that is the only perspective from which one can really understand this entire conflict. 

Even Beirut and Tel Aviv are very similar cities with a very similar vibe. They could be in the same country.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of good people on both sides of the isle. If you look at the daily lives of both people you will not find a dimes worth of difference between the two.
> ...


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## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Ironically, it turns out the OP and 95 percent of the posters have zero backround in the Middle East, after all.  No surprise, there.
> ...


Ha ha ha!  You just showed exactly how ignorant you are. It's exactly the opposite.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Roudy - 

Right...it's precisely because you have never been to the Middle East, do not speak any of the main languages, have never studied the topic at university, and have not read any of the major histories of the region and have no strong personal links with the region that your points are so worth reading.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



Welcome to the Saigon The Poseur Club.  Poor uneducated bastard.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> Right...it's precisely because you have never been to the Middle East, do not speak any of the main languages, have never studied the topic at university, and have not read any of the major histories of the region and have no strong personal links with the region that your points are so worth reading.



Your knowledge of Middle East history is less than zero, as I have demonstrated, repeatedly.

You're allowed to be uneducated but must you make it soooo blatantly obvious?


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
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At one time death, on the other, life.

those things happen during war.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Ironically, it turns out the OP and 95 percent of the posters have zero backround in the Middle East, after all.  No surprise, there.
> ...


Herr Doktor Professor Saigon, PhD:

On July 19, 1958 I flew from Furstenfeldbruck, Germany to Beirut and spent 3 months in that beautiful ME city. My memory is dim about the time spent there so I implore you to tell us what was the occasion and the outcome. I think we were on an extended vacation but I seem to dimly remember some turmoil. Could you bring us up to speed? Thank you for your indulgence.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Hossfly - 

I absloutely love Beirut. It's a stunning city. There are not many cities where you can swim in what look like clean waters (at least on an outgoing tide) within site of so much beauty. 

I really aren't interest in games, Hoss. If you want to believe you have a bigger cock - find a smaller ruler.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of good people on both sides of the isle. If you look at the daily lives of both people you will not find a dimes worth of difference between the two.
> ...


One would get that vibe while mingling with a mob of rock throwing protesters or while sipping java in an internet cafe, playing footsies with a couple of 'Freedom Fighters." Wouldn't one?


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly -
> 
> I absloutely love Beirut. It's a stunning city. There are not many cities where you can swim in what look like clean waters (at least on an outgoing tide) within site of so much beauty.
> 
> I really aren't interest in games, Hoss. If you want to believe you have a bigger cock - find a smaller ruler.


Well, little mouse, I thought when you introduced this thread it would serve a purpose but soon discovered you are merely a whats-her-name wannabe. Keep an eye peeled for 'dozers. Stoner and Roudy had you pegged.I was giving you benefit of the doubt.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Hossfly - 

I think those posters who get very obsessed with 'winning' and 'losing' threads are also fairly quick to realise when they are beaten. 

JStone tried to debate politics with me for about 3 seconds before descending into witless abuse and semi-literate spam. He passed self-satire two days ago, and was last seen heading south. 

Anytime you see posters who have never been to a country telling people who have lived and worked there what it is like....you are dealing with either children or trolls. 

I've never actually seen Roudy or you post anything substantial, so have just both of you on ignore. If you want to discuss a topic sensibly, PM me, and I'll take you off.

My guess is that abuse and envious remarks is all I'm likely to miss.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
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Indeed. It is Israel's war and Israel is the only one who can stop it. I really admire the doctor.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uslS-In4hPQ&feature=related]Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish on Peace in the Face of Tragedy - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> Right...it's precisely because you have never been to the Middle East, do not speak any of the main languages, have never studied the topic at university, and have not read any of the major histories of the region and have no strong personal links with the region that your points are so worth reading.


You are a dipshit of incredible proportions. Not only are you totally wrong about me, but I don't believe you've ever been to the middle east and if so it probably was such a long time ago it doesn't even count. You are either very ignorant or a bad liar.

Beirut is a city that has lost its soul.  In the last 2 to 3 decades, Lebanon is now in the brink of becoming yet another Islamic cesspool. Not to Long ago, the population of Christians in Lebanon was the same if not more than Muslims.   As usual Muslims could not coexist and instigated a civil war, supported and funded by the neighboring Arab countries, the Christians never had a chance to defeat the Islamization of their country. Massive invasion by Muslims and forced takeover and even assassination of their president by Hezbollah, has turned what was once a beautiful country into a shothole controlled by thug Islamists.  Their state newscast is now being broadcast by women in Islamic garb. Although there are remnants of Western music and entertainment.  It is all but lost, the cancer of Islam has metastiized there as well. 

Now shoo. You are obviously biased and definitely unqualified to talk about this subject, especially with me.  You are just another ignorant bullshitter.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeed. It is Israel's war and Israel is the only one who can stop it. I really admire the doctor.



I don't agree with that. 

To me it is fairly much a 50/50 fight, and if either side could truly stop, and for a decent length of time, the debate would change. 

I agree that as Israel has the better political structure and is the more organized society, it would be better for them to take the lead. 

But if Israel alone stops fighting, peace could never last.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed. It is Israel's war and Israel is the only one who can stop it. I really admire the doctor.
> ...



Well if you start history anyplace you want you can frame the debate to your preference. I like to start at the beginning and it is clear that Israel started the war. Everything else is just the consequence of that original sin so to speak.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Tinmore - 

Yeah, we may have to agree to disagree on that one!

To me the explosion of fighting that began in 1948 was generated by both sides - 60+ years on it seems like splitting hairs as to who started it. Both sides fought. 

The Arab world was the aggressor in 1967 and 1973, and Israel the aggressor in Lebanon and Gaza during the 1980s and 1990s....I just can't see either side can claim the high ground on this one.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Tinmore -
> 
> Yeah, we may have to agree to disagree on that one!
> 
> ...



The problem with that assessment is that 1948 was about 50 years into the conflict. That is why I like to start at the beginning. It gives a more honest perspective.


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## SAYIT (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Typically delusional CAMEL CRAP from our PressTV aficionado.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The doctor is a good man, that even though went through a tragedy, holds no hate in his heart.

Just like Tamar Fogel.

And it's not "Israels war" and it's not "only Israel who can stop it".

Israel is at war with the Palestinians. Both Israel and the Palestinians should stop hurting innocent people. on BOTH the palestinian AND israeli boarders.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Tinmore -
> ...



than the beginning is not 1948.

More in the lines of 1929.

Or 1917.

History does not start in the independence war.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Israel is at war with the Palestinians. Both Israel and the Palestinians should stop hurting innocent people. on BOTH the palestinian AND israeli boarders.



Nice comment, Lipush - I totally agree. 

And I have to say, it takes real courage to say that when you live with the threat of katyusha and suicide bombings. 

It's always easier to hate, but that is not the solution to anything.


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## Sunni Man (May 13, 2012)

The Zionists have been the aggressors since day one; both pre and post Israel.    

Zionism is an ideological disease that needs to be eradicated from the earth; much like small pox and rinderpest.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



and how exactly can Israel stop the war?

since you don't believe Israel has the right to exist, that claim is kinda oxymoron, doncha think?


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



The question I have is did the Palestinians go to Europe to attack the Zionists or did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over their country.

The answer will tell you who is the aggressor and who is defending themselves.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> The Zionists have been the aggressors since day one; both pre and post Israel.
> 
> Zionism is an ideological disease that needs to be eradicated from the earth; much like small pox and rinderpest.



Of course Zionism is the problem.
*
"Behold, The Day of Judgement will not come about until the Muslims will fight the Jews and defeat them, When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslim! O Abdullah! there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him! Only the Gharkad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." Hadeeth Sahih Muslim 41:6985*


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> The Zionists have been the aggressors since day one; both pre and post Israel.
> 
> Zionism is an ideological disease that needs to be eradicated from the earth; much like small pox and rinderpest.


Zionism is immune to eradication. You'll have to live with it.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Absolutely YES.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The Arabs of 'Palestine' cooperated with Hitler, helped him and fed his hatred of Jews in the years of the Nazi regime's terror. They didn't move to Europe, maybe, but they sure fueled the killing machine in Israel.

1 billion Muslims against 6.5 million Jews.

I know who the aggressors are.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Yes what? Did the Palestinians go to Europe to attack the Zionists or did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over their country.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You got it right, Tweedledumb.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Of course that was after the Zionists started the war with the Palestinians.

And those "Arabs of Palestine," Who were they and how many were there? And, weren't the Zionists also aligned with Hitler. I have heard both ways but I feel that it is irrelevant at that point in time.


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## Sunni Man (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Zionism is immune to eradication. You'll have to live with it.


True, there is no vaccination for the disease called Zionism.  

It is deadly to goyim.

Thus the carriers must be either quarantined or eliminated.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



the zionists started a war with the Arabs? Please clarify this claim, which you've made countless of times.

Which war was that that the zionists started with the Arabs? on what year did it start? which zionist army faught? for how long?

how many people died?

hope you can answer those questions. If you don't mind.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Zionism is immune to eradication. You'll have to live with it.
> ...



Deadly to the goyim?


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


You'll have to excuse Tinhorn. He's still in the Dick and Jane stage.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Zionism is immune to eradication. You'll have to live with it.
> ...



Sucks to be a muslime loser.  We get it.  Who told you to follow a religion started by a cave-dwelling, caravan hijacking pedophile?

*John F. Kennedy: Zionists of America*


> When the first Zionist conference met in 1897, Palestine was a neglected wasteland
> 
> I first saw Palestine in 1939. There the neglect and ruin left by centuries of Ottoman [Muslim] misrule were slowly being transformed by miracles of [Jewish] labor and sacrifice. But Palestine was still a land of promise in 1939, rather than a land of fulfillment. I returned in 1951 to see the grandeur of Israel
> 
> ...


.


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## Iridescence (May 13, 2012)

.......  .............


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## Sunni Man (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


A term meaning "non jews", ie., gentiles.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



It sucks to be a muslime loser.  We get your envy of the successful Jew.  Who told you to follow an illiterate, cave-dwelling, caravan hijacking pedophile?

Arab-American Executive Lee Habeeb...


> Maybe, just maybe, Arabs can break out of their self-destructive hatred and envy...most anti-Semitism anywhere in the world has its origins in envy.





> To the dismay of Arabs around the world, Jewish people turned an ancient piece of real estate in the Middle East into a thriving oasis of intellectual, political, religious, and commercial activity, where people are free to do as they please. One of the oldest places on earth &#8212; a place where Abraham walked &#8212; Israel is as thoroughly modern as any place on earth, with a functioning government that respects religious and economic freedom.
> 
> A young person in Israel can choose to work in some of the best high-tech companies in the world, or can pursue a life dedicated to Talmudic studies. A woman has an equal right to pursue any career she likes, and people of different sexual orientations are not driven underground &#8212; or worse.
> 
> ...


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Sure, the Zionists planned to take over Palestine and began implementing that plan in the late 1800s. Everything that happened after that was a consequence of that.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



For some reason I getc the feeling that people don't really know what zionism is...


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Still no reputation points after 3 years?

Zion is the Biblical reference to Israel and Jerusalem.  Zionism is a Jewish state.

Now, even you know, doofus


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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Palestine is Israel.

The Romans invented the word palestine to call Israel during the Roman Empire.  The Roman Empire no longer exists.  There was no palestine before WW I during 400 years of the ottoman empire.  palestine does not exist

Israel, not palestine


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Oxymoron.

Most Zionists are not Jews.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The Jewish people have yearned to come back to Israel much before th 1800's. the Jews and Arabs who lived in Israel began fighting because of the Arab harrasment of Jews.

That's really how the war started. learn about the slaughtring of 1921, 1929 and 1936. Jews didn't attack or harmed Arabs. Arabs where those who terrorized Jews.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



The quran sez allah created Israel for the Jews so allah is a Zionist.  Sunni Dunce worships a Zionist God!


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## Sunni Man (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


Pay attention.

I was only pointing out the def. of the word Goyim.


Had nothing to do with who is or isn't a Zionist.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You're a typical self-hating muslime loser jealous of the successful Jew.  We get it.  Who told you to worship a cave-dwelling, caravan hijacking pedophile?

Arab-American Executive Lee Habeeb...


> Maybe, just maybe, Arabs can break out of their self-destructive hatred and envy...most anti-Semitism anywhere in the world has its origins in envy.





> To the dismay of Arabs around the world, Jewish people turned an ancient piece of real estate in the Middle East into a thriving oasis of intellectual, political, religious, and commercial activity, where people are free to do as they please. One of the oldest places on earth  a place where Abraham walked  Israel is as thoroughly modern as any place on earth, with a functioning government that respects religious and economic freedom.
> 
> A young person in Israel can choose to work in some of the best high-tech companies in the world, or can pursue a life dedicated to Talmudic studies. A woman has an equal right to pursue any career she likes, and people of different sexual orientations are not driven underground  or worse.
> 
> ...


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You don't follow your own writings; You've said that Zionism is deadly to all Goyim.

I said that this statement is an oxymoron since most of the Zionists of the world ARE Goyim.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

JStone said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Allah is a Zionist?

What did I miss?


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Open a quran.



> Quran 10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...





> That's really how the war started. learn about the slaughtring of 1921, 1929 and 1936. Jews didn't attack or harmed Arabs. Arabs where those who terrorized Jews.



Of course that was after, and a response to, the Zionist invasion.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm7dMhE80dw]Alnakba English P1 - YouTube[/ame]


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

*John F. Kennedy*


> When the first Zionist conference met in 1897, Palestine was a neglected wasteland
> 
> I first saw Palestine in 1939. There the neglect and ruin left by centuries of Ottoman [Muslim] misrule were slowly being transformed by miracles of [Jewish] labor and sacrifice. But Palestine was still a land of promise in 1939, rather than a land of fulfillment. I returned in 1951 to see the grandeur of Israel
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunni Man (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


No matter how deadly the disease.

There will always people who have immunity to that disease.

Sadly, there are misguided goyim who have been infected with the disease of Zionism and lived to tell about it.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You're a typical self-hating muslime loser envious of the successful Jew.  It sucks to be you.  We get it.

Investor's Business Daily: How Free Israel Prospers As Islam Remains In The Dark


> Israel, a New Jersey-sized nation of 7.5 million people (1.7 million of whom are Arab) filed 7,082 international patents in the five years ending in 2007. By contrast, 28 majority-Muslim nations with almost 1.2 billion people  155 times the population of Israel  were granted 2,071 patents in the same period. Narrowing the comparison to the 17 Muslim nations of the Middle East from Morocco to Iran and down the Arabian Peninsula, the 409 million people in that region generated 680 patents in five years.
> This means that the Arab and Iranian world produced about one patent per year for every 3 million people, compared with Israel's output of one annual patent for every 5,295 people, an Israeli rate some 568 times that of Israel's neighbors and sometime enemies.
> 
> The awarding of Nobel Prizes in the quantitative areas of chemistry, economics and physics shows a similar disparity, with five Israeli winners compared with one French Algerian (a Jew who earned the prize for work done in France) and an Egyptian-American (for work done at Caltech in California).
> ...


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You obviously don't have any idea what Zionism is.

If you don't mind, define it.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



That probably explains why you became a fundamentalist Muslim from a fundamentalist Christian.

If I would have been in a psychology course, i could have learned your case for daaaays.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

> Quote: Originally Posted by Sunni Man
> No matter how deadly the disease.
> 
> There will always people who have immunity to that disease



You're a very angry muslime loser.  Seek psychiatric help or you'll get a heart attack


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Idiot, you don't even know your own religion.  Try opening a quran which sez your allah created Israel. 

You fucking psychopath



> Quran 10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.


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## Sunni Man (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> You obviously don't have any idea what Zionism is.
> 
> If you don't mind, define it.


Since you state that I have No idea what Zionism is.

Then any answer that I give would be wrong in your opinion.

So please give me the correct definition.

Thank You


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > You obviously don't have any idea what Zionism is.
> ...



Ok forget my previous comment. shouldn't have said it maybe. 

you have stated though that zionism is root of all evil I disagree, so I wanna know which Zionism is that you hate so much, so I could simply fix your errors.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > You obviously don't have any idea what Zionism is.
> ...



Zionism is the state of Israel your own allah created.

You don't even know your own religion 


> Quran 10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.


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## Sunni Man (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> you have stated though that zionism is root of all evil I disagree, so I wanna know which Zionism is that you hate so much, so I could simply fix your errors.


Zionism. Period.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > you have stated though that zionism is root of all evil I disagree, so I wanna know which Zionism is that you hate so much, so I could simply fix your errors.
> ...



Your own allah created Israel.  You have never even opened a quran 



> Quran 10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

*Tashbih Sayyed, Muslim Pakistani Scholar, Journalist, Author and Former Editor in Chief of Our Times, Pakistan Today, and The Muslim World Today *Muslim World Today: Front Page 1222005

*A Muslim In A Jewish Land*

I tried very hard to find any Muslim state that has true democracy and where religious minorities are accorded equal democratic rights, but failed. The map of the Muslim world is too crowded with kings, despots, dictators, sham democrats and theocratic autocrats and the persecution of minorities is an essential part of Islamist social behavior. 

Here, protected by Israel's democratic principles, the Muslim Arab citizens of Israel are afforded all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizenship. When the first elections to the Knesset were held in February 1949, Israeli Arabs were given the right to vote and to be elected along with Israeli Jews. Today, Israel's Arab citizens are accorded full civil and political rights entitled to complete participation in Israeli society. They are active in Israeli social, political and civic life and enjoy representation in Israel's Parliament, Foreign Service and judicial system. 

Large Arab residences, wide spread construction activity and big cars underlined the prosperity and affluence of Palestinians living under the Star of David. The big houses owned by Arab Israelis and the amount of construction that was going on in the Arab towns exposed the falsity of propaganda that Israel discriminates against Israeli Arabs from buying lands. The Arab Waqf owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land. 

On my way from the city of David to the Royal Prima hotel in Jerusalem, I asked my Palestinian taxi driver how he feels about moving to the territories under Palestinian Authority. He said that he could never think of living outside Israel. His answer blasted the myth spread by anti-Semites that Israel's Arab citizens are not happy there. Another Israeli Arab informed me that Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights. In fact, Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arab women can vote. In contrast to the non-Israeli Arab world, Arab women in Israel enjoy the same status as men. Muslim women have the right to vote and to be elected to public office. Muslim women, in fact are more liberated in Israel than in any Muslim country. Israeli law prohibits polygamy, child marriage, and the barbarity of female sexual mutilation. Moreover, I found out that there are no incidences of honor killings in Israel. The status of Muslim women in Israel is far above that of any country in the region. Israeli health standards are by far the highest in the Middle East and Israeli health institutions are freely open to all Arabs, on the same basis as they are to Jews. 

Israel's Arabic press is the most vibrant and independent of any country in the region. There are more than 20 Arabic periodicals. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools. Israeli universities are renowned centers of learning in the history and literature of the Arab Middle East. 

Aware of the constraints that a non-Wahhabi is faced with while performing religious rituals in Saudi Arabia, Kiran (my wife) could not hide her surprise at the freedoms and ease with which peoples of all religions and faiths were carrying out their religious obligations at the Church of the holy Sepulcher, Garden Tomb, Sea of Galilee, newly discovered Western Wall Tunnels, Western Wall, tomb of King David and all the other holy places we visited. 

My first visit to Israel has not only consolidated my belief that Israel is vital for the stability of the region but has also convinced me that the existence of Israel will one day convince the Muslims of the necessity of reformation in their theology as well as sociology. Looking at the development and transformation that the land has gone through because of the Jewish innovative spirit, hard labor and commitment to freedoms for all times to come, I am convinced that it is true that God created this earth but it is also a fact that only an Israel can keep this earth from dying.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > you have stated though that zionism is root of all evil I disagree, so I wanna know which Zionism is that you hate so much, so I could simply fix your errors.
> ...



I'm trying to have a serious conversation here, to go beyond the "obvious". don't be so heavy.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



You haven't yet discerned a deep-seated psychiatric disorder?


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## Iridescence (May 13, 2012)

JStone said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


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## Jos (May 13, 2012)

JStone said:


> You haven't yet discerned a deep-seated psychiatric disorder?



Yours is called Aspergers, I think your family should pay this site for your day care


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Jos said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > You haven't yet discerned a deep-seated psychiatric disorder?
> ...



Jos




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## Jos (May 13, 2012)

> Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome or Asperger disorder, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and *repetitive patterns* of behavior and interests.
> The mainstay of management is behavioral therapy, focusing on specific deficits to address poor communication skills, *obsessive or repetitive routines*


Asperger syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jos (May 13, 2012)

"repetitive routines"


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Jos




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

JStone said:


> *Tashbih Sayyed, Muslim Pakistani Scholar, Journalist, Author and Former Editor in Chief of Our Times, Pakistan Today, and The Muslim World Today *Muslim World Today: Front Page 1222005
> 
> *A Muslim In A Jewish Land*
> 
> ...


Post of the day!
An enlightened  and open-minded Pakistani Muslim.One of the few.


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## Jos (May 13, 2012)

JStone said:


> Jos
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"repetitive routines"


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > *Tashbih Sayyed, Muslim Pakistani Scholar, Journalist, Author and Former Editor in Chief of Our Times, Pakistan Today, and The Muslim World Today *Muslim World Today: Front Page 1222005
> ...


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## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


That is correct.  In other words, he went from partially insane to totally insane. If you note, he immediately turned into a hater and liar upon his conversion to Islam. Islam does that to you. And when he starts using violence he will be a "true Muslim".


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## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

Jos said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Jos
> ...


Talk about repetitive routines, do you have anything else to say other than Iranian Hezbollah lunacy like the Jews did 9-11 blah blah blah, Jos the POS Mullah BJ giver?


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## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

Jos said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > You haven't yet discerned a deep-seated psychiatric disorder?
> ...


Jos is a mental case Hezbollah sucker of Mullahs, is that a mental disorder?


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## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

Jos said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > You haven't yet discerned a deep-seated psychiatric disorder?
> ...


Speaking of which, does Hezbollah or the Islamic regime of Iran pay you for posting your garbage here? They should fire your sorry ass cause you're not getting the "job" done. The only thing you're good at is sucking off Mullah kirs.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



Those old codgers need love, too.  At least, Jos has some purpose in life


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > *Tashbih Sayyed, Muslim Pakistani Scholar, Journalist, Author and Former Editor in Chief of Our Times, Pakistan Today, and The Muslim World Today *Muslim World Today: Front Page 1222005
> ...





> I tried very hard to find any Muslim state that has true democracy and where religious minorities are accorded equal democratic rights, but failed.



Palestinian elections were the most free and fair that they have seen anywhere according to international observers.

Palestine's constitution states that all Palestinians are equal under the law without regard to race, religion, sex, etc. and there are no religion or sex specific laws.

The mayor of Ramallah is a Christian woman. The mayor of Bethlehem is a Christian. There are female judges. A Christian woman is a member of the cabinet. There are many Christians and women in the parliament. One Christian was elected to parliament in Gaza running in the Change and Reform (Hamas) party.

He is a failure, indeed.


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



Pestilians are losers.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Of course the main question has yet to be answered.

Did the Palestinians go to Europe to attack the Zionists or did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over their country?


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Of course the main question has yet to be answered.
> 
> Did the Palestinians go to Europe to attack the Zionists or did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over their country?



The Zionists established Israel 3000 years ago.  The pestilinians are illegal egyptians and saudis who invaded Israel a few years ago.

Palesteenian Hamas Minister of the Interior Fathi Hammad, Al-Hekma TV [Egypt]: "Half of the Palestiniains are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis"


> Brothers, there are 1.8 million of us in Gaza. Allah be praised, we all have Arab roots and every Palestinian in Gaza and throughout Palestine can prove his Arab roots--whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere.
> 
> Personally, half my family is Egyptian.  We are all like that.
> 
> ...


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAfENxzv2mc]Hamas Interior Minister Slams Egypt over Fuel Shortage in Gaza Strip: We are Egyptians! - YouTube[/ame]


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Of course the main question has yet to be answered.
> 
> Did the Palestinians go to Europe to attack the Zionists or did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over their country?


How many times have I answered this questionTinmore, The answer is yes, yes, yes.


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Of course the main question has yet to be answered.
> ...



*Duh!*


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Now you know. Anymore simple questions?


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## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Nothing simple enough for you.


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## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

JStone said:


> The Zionists established Israel 3000 years ago.



And there was no one at all there at the time, is that right?

The cities of Jericho, Jerusalem, Akko....they were deserted 3,000 years ago, were they?

Honestly - you have to laugh don't you?


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## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > The Zionists established Israel 3000 years ago.
> ...



SAIGON


----------



## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

JStone - 

Please answer the question. 

Or are you just going to collapse like a house of cards again?

Fight, man, FIGHT!!! Put up an argument! Present evidence!!


----------



## JStone (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone -
> 
> Please answer the question.
> 
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > The Zionists established Israel 3000 years ago.
> ...



Some people believe that when a new flag is raised over city hall the entire population moves out and is replaced by an entire new population.


----------



## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Of course the main question has yet to be answered.
> 
> Did the Palestinians go to Europe to attack the Zionists or did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over their country?


Dipshit, how many times do we need to tell you, there were no Palestinian Arab Muslims until 1960's. The question should be, did Arabs from neighboring countries invade the British territory of Palestine in droves looking dor jobs and a better life, when they saw the Jews aka Palestinians were coming back to regain their ancient homeland?  Heck yes. And there's plenty proof of that in the British archives. in other words the land never belonged to the Arabs or Palestinians.   

Get that through your thick skull?  Now keep repeating the same lie over and over as if it's going to become true one day.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2012)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Of course the main question has yet to be answered.
> ...



You have all the Israeli propaganda down pat.

Good boy.


----------



## Roudy (May 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > The Zionists established Israel 3000 years ago.
> ...


If you're trying to sell the falacy that the Arabs who invaded from neighboring Arab COU tries and started calling themselves Palestinians as of 1964, are suddenly related to the ancient Cannanites, it has been proven hogwash many times over.   The Palestinains are ARABS, no different in any way than their neighboring Arab Egyotians, Jordanians, or Syrians. Not genetically, not culturally, and not historically.   In fact, the term Palestinian Arab is a hoax.  The closest you can get to the ancient Canaanites would be the Jews who mixed with them. Moses had a Cannanite wife. 

And the idiot calls itself informed!  You're about as informed and knowledgable as your average trailor trash neo nazi with a 5th grade education. You stink.


----------



## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Dipshit, how many times do we need to tell you, there were no Palestinian Arab Muslims until 1960's. .



This really is very, very funny. 

Roudy - have you ever tried telling this to someone from Israel?

Did you notice they fell about laughing?


----------



## Saigon (May 13, 2012)

Roudy said:


> You're about as informed and knowledgable as your average trailor trash neo nazi with a 5th grade education. You stink.



Firstly, the term is 'neo-Nazi'.

Secndly, the word is 'knowledgeable'. 

Thirdly, the word is 'trailer trash'. 

I don't need to say a word about your education and literacy here, do I?


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > You're about as informed and knowledgable as your average trailor trash neo nazi with a 5th grade education. You stink.
> ...


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Truth hurts eh?  Perhaps it is you that spreads IslamoNazi lies and propoganda.  

Do they pay you for this shit or do you just do it because you're a Muslim or have Muslim associations? If they pay you, you should be fired. It's obvious you're not getting anything accomplished. Oh sorry, you are indeed adding to the level of dislike Americans have towards Palestinians and Muslims in general. So keep up the good work.  Israel is counting in you.


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



That IS funny, isn't it??!! 

But do you think Roudy meant it as self-satire? That he is being DELIBERATELY illiterate?

I think that is a brave call.


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > You're about as informed and knowledgable as your average trailor trash neo nazi with a 5th grade education. You stink.
> ...


Scndly, he just spelled secondly scndly and he's correcting other people's typos. Which is usually when the idiot has been proven wrong. They turn the place in a grammar class. So not only are you ignorant and illiterate, but you're a also whiner.


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Roudby - 

Your mistakes are not typos. At least, many of them are not. 

You can not spell the word 'neo-Nazi' because you do not know HOW to spell it. It really is as simple as that. 

And it really is that obvious. 



> They turn the place in a grammar class.



Then perhaps you should not have started attacking another poster for his literacy, should you?


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



Well - as I said, I can imagine that you might be a Pro-Palestinian troll. It is one theory. 

And if you are a pro-Palestinian troll, then it would make sense that you wouldn't want your Jewish nutcase sock puppet to be too literate, right?

You make a huge number of language errors, so that would make sense....


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...


I suppose the ignorant garbage that he is, he doesn't know what it's like typing on an iPad.


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Gee, you're filled with these brilliant theories. Now according to siagon, Jstone is a pro Palestinian!  Were you born this stupid or did you have to work on it?


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudby -
> 
> Your mistakes are not typos. At least, many of them are not.
> 
> ...


Ignorance and illiteracy go hand in hand. Case in point, dipshit Saigon. Read the  rest of what I said.  You promote neo Nazi / Islamist propoganda and you expect people not to call you illiterate?


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Roudby - 

Another poster suggested to me by PM that JStone might be a pro-Palestinian troll, and I admit that this is a possibility. 

It would explain the number of what seem to be very, very ironic posts. 

How else can we explain a poster who has never been to the Middle East telling another poster (who lives in Oman) that he needs to "get out more". 

I laughed like a banshee when I read that! My first thought was that it was meant as an ironic dig at himself. 

btw. I post regularly from an iPad - particularly when I'm posting from somewhere in Africa or the Middle East. I still know how to spell 'neo-Nazi'. We all make typos, but most of us also know how to spell, and the difference is usually clear. 

btw. the word is "pro-Palestinian".


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Ignorance and illiteracy go hand in hand. Case in point, dipshit Saigon. Read the  rest of what I said.  You promote neo Nazi / Islamist propoganda and you expect people not to call you illiterate?



The word is "neo-Nazi". 

The word is "propaganda". 



(and when I have stopped crying with laughter, I'll be back)

btw. I do not promote any agenda, and if I did, it wouldn't be Islamist. I used to live in Israel, remember?


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudby -
> 
> Another poster suggested to me by PM that JStone might be a pro-Palestinian troll, and I admit that this is a possibility.
> 
> ...



SAIGON: THE FACE OF MENTAL ILLNESS 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sRCbp29j14]Mental Illness Awareness Week Commercial 2011 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Oh yes, that is good.


----------



## eots (May 14, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLpP8BvwMXU]The American jewish controled media - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lipush (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Dipshit, how many times do we need to tell you, there were no Palestinian Arab Muslims until 1960's. .
> ...



Of sourse this is a mistake. The saying that there were no Palestinians till 1960 is rediculous.

As the defenision goes today, I'd say there are no Palestinians up to 2012.

Not how people define them, that is


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



What people?

What definition?


----------



## Lipush (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



The defenision which says that the Palestinians are the Arabs of the conflict. That defenision is wrong.

Palestinians are the people who lived on the land of Israel pre-until-1948.

The Israeli Jews who have sat here until 1948, and their children and grandchildren are also "Palestinians" if accepting the "Palestinian problem".

Although most Israelis don't recognize a state called Palestine, so...


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Yes, that could be confusing. Many Israeli Jews have Palestine on their birth certificate. Also many "Israeli Arabs" have Palestine on their birth certificate. It seems strange that Palestinians are classified as Arabs by Israel. It must be a political thing.

Palestinians (according to the Palestinians) are the normal residents inside the borders that were defined in 1922 and their offspring. This includes Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

It really gets confusing when you realize that all of Israel is inside Palestine's borders and has no borders of its own. So, everyone born in Israel was born in Palestine. Every Palestinian born in Palestine must have an Israeli ID card.

Identity is a very confusing thing in that neck of the woods.


----------



## editec (May 14, 2012)

Another " _There was never a place called Palestine"_ debate?



Facts are persistent things that cannot change no matter how inconvenient they are.

Except for here, of course, where some of us imagine that facts are subject to the whims of partisans.


----------



## Lipush (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Of course it must be a political thing. duh

Who gain from war besides leaders? You tell me.

It's the other way around, bud. Palestine is inside Israel boarders, since the last century's recognition of Israel, includes parts of Jordan and Egypt. "Eretz Israel Hashleima". google it.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

editec said:


> Another " _There was never a place called Palestine"_ debate?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is interesting to note that in the 1949 armistice agreements the place was still called Palestine. There was no place called Israel. All the borders were Palestinian. There were no borders mentioned for an Israel.

So...


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Eretz Israel was a Zionist pipe dream. There never was such a place. See above.


----------



## Lipush (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



There surely is now. And there will be always.

sometimes dreams come true. Isn't that a beautiful world?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



The fact is, though, that Israel still has no borders and Palestine's borders have not changed since 1922.


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

editec said:


> Another " _There was never a place called Palestine"_ debate?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Indeed, and well put. 

The funny thing is, not even the people who post this stuff actually believe it. It's just theatre.


----------



## Lipush (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yes they have. Look at the map. most of Israel (well, that's not exactly true, but lets pretend) is Jewish.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



There are no maps of Israel inside its real borders. Every map of Israel uses the 1949 armistice lines. The 1949 armistice agreements specifically state that those are not to be borders.

Israel sits inside Palestine's borders. Don't they teach you that in school.


----------



## Lipush (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



They don't teach us Palestinian lies in schools. They teach us history and facts.


----------



## Sunni Man (May 14, 2012)

Lipush said:


> That probably explains why you became a fundamentalist Muslim from a fundamentalist Christian.
> 
> If I would have been in a psychology course, i could have learned your case for daaaays.


The transition from Christian to Muslim was very easy.

I see people do it just about every day at our Mosque.

In fact, I personally know several Jewish people who have converted to Islam.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...





> 2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...
> 
> The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949



Why do all maps use those lines instead of Israel's real borders?


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > That probably explains why you became a fundamentalist Muslim from a fundamentalist Christian.
> ...



You need a psychiatrist, pedophile worshipper.

Arab-American Psychiatrist And Human Rights Activist Dr. Wafa Sultan, Among "Time Magazine's 100 Men and Women Whose Power, Talent or Moral Example Is Transforming Our World" 

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1975813_1975847_1976751,00.html

Islime Is A Mental Disorder


> When I examined the Koran, the hadiths and the Islamic books under my microscope, I came to the absolute conviction that it is impossible--IMPOSSIBLE-- for any human being to read the biography of Muhammad and believe in it and yet emerge a psychologically and mentally healthy person.
> 
> Do you remember the way that Muhammad killed Asma bint Marwan? His followers tore her body apart limb from limb while she was breastfeeding her child. When they returned to him shouting, "Allah Akbar," he said: "Two goats would lock horns over her." As you know, goats lock horns over the most inconsequential thing. For Muhammad, however, the killing of a woman while breastfeeding was too trivial an incident for goats to lock horns over. Is this a prophet of God?
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g4cMjpiBpA]Islam & Mental Illness (Arabic with Subs.) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > That probably explains why you became a fundamentalist Muslim from a fundamentalist Christian.
> ...



Yeah sure you see people convert to Islam everyday. Maybe in your dreams. Is that before or after they go to prison?


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ignorance and illiteracy go hand in hand. Case in point, dipshit Saigon. Read the  rest of what I said.  You promote neo Nazi / Islamist propoganda and you expect people not to call you illiterate?
> ...



Damned if this is the funniest thing I've ever seen posted on this forum!


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kz7YUdy-Cg]Ace Ventura - Loser - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Dipshit, how many times do we need to tell you, there were no Palestinian Arab Muslims until 1960's. .
> ...


Again you show your ignorance. The term "Palestinian" referred to Jews that lived in that region only. The Arabs would call themselves Arab or Egyptian or Syrian, but never Palestinian. It was only after the 1960's that Arafat (born and raised in Egypt himself) decided to adopt the name Palestinian. Prior to that, calling an Arab "Palestinian" was an insult because it meant you are calling him a Jew.  Look it up douchebag.


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Roudy - 

In all honestly - if you were shown a map of the Israel and surounding areas, would you be able to locate major towns like Netanya, Qiryat Shemonah, Quneitra and Sidon?

Please answer honestly.

btw. Your post is below any minimum standard for debate. If you want to post something with some basis in reality, I will respond to it.


----------



## Sunni Man (May 14, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Yeah sure you see people convert to Islam everyday. Maybe in your dreams.


I attend a very large Mosque in an American city. We have a lot of outreach programs for non muslims to learn about Islam. Also, we provide free arabic language class. And many on going lecture's that explain Islam and Islamic history. There is an InterFaith breakfast group of Christian, Jews, and Muslims, that meet every week for discussions.

So naturally there are a certain number of people who convert to Islam because of our efforts.


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Correct.  The British re-invented the word palestine during the British Mandate, which was invented by the Romans to call Israel.  The British saw themselves as inheritors of the Roman Empire.

Everyone living under the British Mandate were called palestinians, including Jews.  Jews had palestine on their passports.

Ironically, Arabs did not call themselves palestinians because they did not wish to be associated with the Jews.  Also, Arab leadership vehemently opposed the imposition of the word palestine on what was southern Syria during 400 years of Ottoman rule for fear it was a Western device to control the land.

On British Mandate minted coins, Jews argued successfully to include "Eretz Yisrael" which means Land of Israel.


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> Correct.  The British re-invented the word palestine during the British Mandate, which was invented by the Romans to call Israel.



So what was the region called by both the League of Nations and the Ottoman leadership prior to the mandate being passed to Britain?


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudby -
> 
> Your mistakes are not typos. At least, many of them are not.
> 
> ...


I don't put hyphens because I usually use an iPad, douchebag, which means I have to switch to another screen to get to the numbers and symbols. So I just don't. The rest of the misspelled words you see are due to the way the virtual keyboard works, you simply cannot avoid pressing the wrong keys. Often I go back and correct like two or three times, because the auto spell feature spells out a totally different word on its own.  

What's your excuse for your ignorance and hatred?  I assume it was your upbringing or perhaps you are just an imposter.


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Correct.  The British re-invented the word palestine during the British Mandate, which was invented by the Romans to call Israel.
> ...



Syria.  Now, even you know


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

JStone & Roudy - 

Both the League of Nations and the Ottoman Empire used the term "Palestine". 

JStone - surprsingly enough, the term 'Syria' was used to cover 'Syria'. The term 'Palestine' ws used to describe 'Palestine'. Nice lie, though. I'm sure you were almost fooled yourself. 

I'd be happy to recommend 2 or 3 excellent books on this topic to anyone genuinely interested in the topic.


----------



## High_Gravity (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roadby suggested the other day that people post their qualifications or background on this topic, and I think it's a great idea.
> 
> It's not a contest, but I'm curious to know who might have lived in Qatar, who might have a degree in Arabic, or who might have spent every summer at Yeshiva camp!
> 
> ...



I was in the US Air Force for 7 years, I deployed to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and I also spent time in Bahrain, the UAE, Qatar, Iraq and 2 stops to Turkey, just in the airport there though. I also was in Cyprus in Larnaka and Nicossia.


----------



## High_Gravity (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Well, Stoner's interest is spam.



Have you ever been to the Middle East?


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Roudby - 



> What's your excuse for your ignorance and hatred



Who do you think I hate?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone & Roudy -
> 
> Both the League of Nations and the Ottoman Empire used the term "Palestine".
> 
> ...



The League of Nations called it Palestine because it was already called Palestine.


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> I was in the US Air Force for 7 years, I deployed to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and I also spent time in Bahrain, the UAE, Qatar, Iraq and 2 stops to Turkey, just in the airport there though. I also was in Cyprus in Larnaka and Nicossia.



Cool! 

Turkey is an amazing country to travel in (it's my base when I work in the Middle East), but the airport might not be the best part to see! 

I haven't travelled in the Gulf, but am interested to hear your experiences there.


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > JStone & Roudy -
> ...



Indeed. 

You'd really have thought that was self-evident, wouldn't you??!!


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone & Roudy -
> 
> Both the League of Nations and the Ottoman Empire used the term "Palestine".
> 
> ...



Read, learn...

Cambridge University Press


> In Ottoman times, no political entity called Palestine existed. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War, European boundary makers began to take greater interest in defining territorial limits for Palestine. Only since the 1920s has Palestine had formally delimited boundaries, though these have remained subject to repeated change and a source of bitter dispute.
> Palestine Boundaries 18331947 - Cambridge Archive Editions



Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire...


> Palestine did not exist in the geographical imagination of the Ottomans...[Before modern Israel], Jews referred to the territory as Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel.  Throughout the Ottoman period, pilgrims and clergy from both religious traditions visited what they considered the "Holy Land" following a route from the port of Jaffa to Jerusalem
> 
> For most of the Ottoman period, "Palestine" was administered as a set of sub-provinces of Damascus...that formed separate political districts.   With the return of direct political control from Istanbul in the 19th century, the northern region of "Palestine" was placed under the provincial governor of Beirut.
> Amazon.com: Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire (9780816062591): Gabor Agoston, Bruce Masters: Books


----------



## Jos (May 14, 2012)

> The first clear use of the term* Palestine* to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.[14] Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.[15][16][17][18][19][20] Approximately a century later, Aristotle used a similar definition in Meteorology, writing "Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them," understood by scholars to be a reference to the Dead Sea


Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

JStone - 

I think most of us now realise that it is your point here to be wrong. 

Might I suggest a new handle and a new act?


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone -
> 
> I think most of us now realise that it is your point here to be wrong.
> 
> Might I suggest a new handle and a new act?



You lost the debate, as usual.  Run along.


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"


> The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new.  This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites.  But, Palestine was not one of them.  People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality.  But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria
> 
> The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1922-1948]


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Jstone - 

You claimed Britain invented the word Palestine here: 



> The British re-invented the word palestine during the British Mandate, which was invented by the Romans to call Israel.



You were proven wrong, because both the Ottoman Empire and the League of Nations used the term 'Palestine' prior to Britain receiving the mandate.

And you wonder why I do not believe you are a legitimate poster?


----------



## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Jstone -
> 
> You claimed Britain invented the word Palestine here:
> 
> ...



Repeating the same mistake doesn't make you correct, it merely shows your own self-defeat.

Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"


> The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new.  This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites.  But, Palestine was not one of them.  People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality.  But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria
> 
> The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1922-1948]


----------



## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Jstone - 

I do not believe you are a legitimate poster. 

I think you are a sock puppet looking for attention, and I think you post material here you know to be wrong on purpose. Maybe you're really a pro-Palestinian troll, who knows. 

But like I said yesterday - anytime I see a poster who has never been within 1,000 kms of the ME taking a poster who lives in the ME what it is like - I think we're either dealing with a sock puppet or a child. 

I'll put you on ignore as a result.


----------



## High_Gravity (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > I was in the US Air Force for 7 years, I deployed to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and I also spent time in Bahrain, the UAE, Qatar, Iraq and 2 stops to Turkey, just in the airport there though. I also was in Cyprus in Larnaka and Nicossia.
> ...



Bahrain and the UAE were probably the more modern countries I been to there, they allow drinking, they have night clubs, pretty good looking women and the restaurants there were great, I actually really started liking Middle Eastern and Persian food when I was over in those countries. Kuwait was more conversative than Bahrain and the UAE, no drinking, no nigh clubs and not so many restaurants, even though things have changed recently, now in Kuwait they have Starbucks on every corner just like the US, as well as Sushi restaurants, I was introduced to the chicken shawarma in Kuwait, the Military base would order in chicken shawarmas from a place downtown once a week during the lunch, I would always look forward to that. Saudi Arabia was the most conservative place out of all the countries I visited in the region, women cannot drive and are always covered, in fact I maybe only saw 1 or 2 women, they made sure to keep their women away from us yankees. A friend of mine scored a bottle of home made gin from a Philipino contractor, I was 19 at the time but we got hammered, I had a terrible hang over but I had to go to work, I couldn't admit to drinking in a country that doesn't allow alcohol, god it was a horrible day, I threw up like 3 times that day during work.


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## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Bahrain and the UAE were probably the more modern countries I been to there, they allow drinking, they have night clubs, pretty good looking women and the restaurants there were great, I actually really started liking Middle Eastern and Persian food when I was over in those countries. Kuwait was more conversative than Bahrain and the UAE, no drinking, no nigh clubs and not so many restaurants, even though things have changed recently, now in Kuwait they have Starbucks on every corner just like the US, as well as Sushi restaurants, I was introduced to the chicken shawarma in Kuwait, the Military base would order in chicken shawarmas from a place downtown once a week during the lunch, I would always look forward to that. Saudi Arabia was the most conservative place out of all the countries I visited in the region, women cannot drive and are always covered, in fact I maybe only saw 1 or 2 women, they made sure to keep their women away from us yankees. A friend of mine scored a bottle of home made gin from a Philipino contractor, I was 19 at the time but we got hammered, I had a terrible hang over but I had to go to work, I couldn't admit to drinking in a country that doesn't allow alcohol, god it was a horrible day, I threw up like 3 times that day during work.



I love Muslim countries where you can drink!!

Lebanon is amazing for this - great bars there. Also Turkey is very open, and usually I've been able to get a beer most places across the Islamic world. (Though sometimes in Jakarta they serve it in a frosted glass, so it looks like it could be coke or something!)

Chicken shwarme is amazing - we used to live on it in Israel. But that said - I made my wife eat one on her first day in Israel, and it took her 2 weeks to stop shitting....!!!

I haven't been to Saudi, and doubt I'll go now....travel in places like that is more of an experience than fun, but it is an experience!


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Jstone -
> 
> I do not believe you are a legitimate poster.
> 
> ...



You lost the debate, as usual.  Run along.

Cambridge University Press


> In Ottoman times, no political entity called Palestine existed. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War, European boundary makers began to take greater interest in defining territorial limits for Palestine. Only since the 1920s has Palestine had formally delimited boundaries, though these have remained subject to repeated change and a source of bitter dispute.
> Palestine Boundaries 18331947 - Cambridge Archive Editions


Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire...


> Palestine did not exist in the geographical imagination of the Ottomans...[Before modern Israel], Jews referred to the territory as Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel.  Throughout the Ottoman period, pilgrims and clergy from both religious traditions visited what they considered the "Holy Land" following a route from the port of Jaffa to Jerusalem.
> 
> For most of the Ottoman period, "Palestine" was administered as a set of sub-provinces of Damascus...that formed separate political districts.   With the return of direct political control from Istanbul in the 19th century, the northern region of "Palestine" was placed under the provincial governor of Beirut.
> Amazon.com: Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire (9780816062591): Gabor Agoston, Bruce Masters: Books


Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"


> The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new.  This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites.  But, Palestine was not one of them.  People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality.  But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria
> 
> The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1922-1948]


Bernard Lewis


> For Arabs, the term Palestine was unacceptable. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant but not abhorrent in the same way as it was to Jews. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole [of Syria]. For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point
> Amazon.com: Political Words and Ideas in Islam (9781558764248): Bernard Lewis: Books


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## High_Gravity (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Bahrain and the UAE were probably the more modern countries I been to there, they allow drinking, they have night clubs, pretty good looking women and the restaurants there were great, I actually really started liking Middle Eastern and Persian food when I was over in those countries. Kuwait was more conversative than Bahrain and the UAE, no drinking, no nigh clubs and not so many restaurants, even though things have changed recently, now in Kuwait they have Starbucks on every corner just like the US, as well as Sushi restaurants, I was introduced to the chicken shawarma in Kuwait, the Military base would order in chicken shawarmas from a place downtown once a week during the lunch, I would always look forward to that. Saudi Arabia was the most conservative place out of all the countries I visited in the region, women cannot drive and are always covered, in fact I maybe only saw 1 or 2 women, they made sure to keep their women away from us yankees. A friend of mine scored a bottle of home made gin from a Philipino contractor, I was 19 at the time but we got hammered, I had a terrible hang over but I had to go to work, I couldn't admit to drinking in a country that doesn't allow alcohol, god it was a horrible day, I threw up like 3 times that day during work.
> ...



I heard the night life in Lebanon is fantastic but I wouldn't feel comfortable going there since the country is basically a Hezbollah strong hold right now, the women are also gorgeous as well. I haven't been to Iran but I got to meet many Iranians in California when I was living there for 3 years, some of the best people I ever met, Persian kababs with saffron rice and that yogurt mix they go with it, that is my favorite food.


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## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

High Gravity - 

Beirut is safe, and Bekaa is safe, but other than that I'd keep a very low profile. 

I spent a bit of time in the deep south, around Sidon, Tyre and close in to the Israeli border, and it is tense, edgy stuff. I am not keen on having a 14-year-old kid pointing an AK at me. (and I'm not from Evil America!)

Gorgeous women, as you say, but I'd be careful about going to meet her Dad!


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## High_Gravity (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High Gravity -
> 
> Beirut is safe, and Bekaa is safe, but other than that I'd keep a very low profile.
> 
> ...



After seeing the incidents of back packers getting picked up in Iran and American journalists getting taken in North Korea, I would only want to visit countries that were friendly towards Americans at the moment, I don't want to be "that guy" on the news tied up with rope begging the President to come and save me. I remember when I was in Kuwait and was riding in a vehicle with some Kuwaiti Military members, and they started joking about how far it was to the Iranian border, shit freaked me out.


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## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

HG - 

I do know that feeling....and I'll soon be on my way to Liberia, where I suspect I'll get to know it some more!

I really don't know what it is like for Americans in places like Beirut. I'd guess ok, because there is the American University of Beirut, and there are quite a lot of gringo lecturers and students there. That's a nice area to hang out, too. Nice bars and cafes around there. 

But it would be good to hear from some Americans who are there...

As a Finn I'm fairly safe, because no one knows where the hell Finland is!


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## High_Gravity (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> HG -
> 
> I do know that feeling....and I'll soon be on my way to Liberia, where I suspect I'll get to know it some more!
> 
> ...



I never been to Africa although I would like to, I heard Liberia is doing alot better in recent years. It would be interesting to hear from Americans living in Lebanon.


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Bahrain and the UAE were probably the more modern countries I been to there, they allow drinking, they have night clubs, pretty good looking women and the restaurants there were great, I actually really started liking Middle Eastern and Persian food when I was over in those countries. Kuwait was more conversative than Bahrain and the UAE, no drinking, no nigh clubs and not so many restaurants, even though things have changed recently, now in Kuwait they have Starbucks on every corner just like the US, as well as Sushi restaurants, I was introduced to the chicken shawarma in Kuwait, the Military base would order in chicken shawarmas from a place downtown once a week during the lunch, I would always look forward to that. Saudi Arabia was the most conservative place out of all the countries I visited in the region, women cannot drive and are always covered, in fact I maybe only saw 1 or 2 women, they made sure to keep their women away from us yankees. A friend of mine scored a bottle of home made gin from a Philipino contractor, I was 19 at the time but we got hammered, I had a terrible hang over but I had to go to work, I couldn't admit to drinking in a country that doesn't allow alcohol, god it was a horrible day, I threw up like 3 times that day during work.
> ...


I could make a list of the places in the world I have experienced the Mexican two-step, but that said............. most pro-Israeli/Zionist posters here were educated in the school of hard knocks, not some party school in Southern California. Got their degree in the language arts by growing up with the lingo or going to DLI in Monterrey or Fort Bliss,TX. Experience was gained by life's experiences,by working in the oil fields, as construction workers or the military. Not by living in a yeshiva giving tea parties and teaching Sunday school. Or by 'identifying' with the "Freedom Fighters', joining in their protests and rock slinging. And becoming a self-proclaimed Middle East Expert. How about giving us a litany of your accomplishments before you continue to belittle your betters. Either fish or cut bait or as you so succinctly put it; shit or get off the pot. Hokay?


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## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

I'm excited about Liberia....but also a little anxious. You know how it is, I'm sure!!

I'm going to some very, very remote areas, crossing through the jungle from Sierra Leone...and then fly on to Benin from Monrovia. 

I'll try and log in from there if I can find WiFi!


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## High_Gravity (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> I'm excited about Liberia....but also a little anxious. You know how it is, I'm sure!!
> 
> I'm going to some very, very remote areas, crossing through the jungle from Sierra Leone...and then fly on to Benin from Monrovia.
> 
> I'll try and log in from there if I can find WiFi!



Be careful out there and be sure you get your vaccinations up to date.


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> HG -
> 
> I do know that feeling....and I'll soon be on my way to Liberia, where I suspect I'll get to know it some more!
> 
> ...


Suomi Finland (SF) or as my ol'buddy Erik Jensen (a Finn) used to say-"Soviet Finland."


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## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Hoss - 

Finland was very Sovietized (in a sense) in the 1970s...when we gifted the world term Finlandisation to decribe colonialism by diplomacy. But that all ended long before the Berlin Wall came down. 

We have a conservative government here now, and by most standards are fairly damn lucky. Except with weather.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > JStone & Roudy -
> ...


"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale"


Cambridge University Press


> In Ottoman times, no political entity called Palestine existed. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War, European boundary makers began to take greater interest in defining territorial limits for Palestine. Only since the 1920s has Palestine had formally delimited boundaries, though these have remained subject to repeated change and a source of bitter dispute.
> Palestine Boundaries 18331947 - Cambridge Archive Editions


Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire...


> Palestine did not exist in the geographical imagination of the Ottomans...[Before modern Israel], Jews referred to the territory as Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel.  Throughout the Ottoman period, pilgrims and clergy from both religious traditions visited what they considered the "Holy Land" following a route from the port of Jaffa to Jerusalem.
> 
> For most of the Ottoman period, "Palestine" was administered as a set of sub-provinces of Damascus...that formed separate political districts.   With the return of direct political control from Istanbul in the 19th century, the northern region of "Palestine" was placed under the provincial governor of Beirut.
> Amazon.com: Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire (9780816062591): Gabor Agoston, Bruce Masters: Books


Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"


> The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new.  This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites.  But, Palestine was not one of them.  People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality.  But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria
> 
> The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1922-1948]


Bernard Lewis


> For Arabs, the term Palestine was unacceptable. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant but not abhorrent in the same way as it was to Jews. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole [of Syria]. For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point
> Amazon.com: Political Words and Ideas in Islam (9781558764248): Bernard Lewis: Books


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## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

JStone - 



> This message is hidden because JStone is on your ignore list.



Though shalt sock puppet no more!


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > JStone -
> ...


 
"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale"


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > JStone -
> ...


Tinmore,if your local Imam reads your 'amen' yo will have some 'splaining to do.


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## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Not so. Been a baptized Christian for decades.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Baptism is a Jewish ritual that originated in Israel.


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## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Indeed, I am an Israelite.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You're embarrasingly uneducated.  No reputation points for you

After the end of the Babylonian exile in the 6th century BCE, Israelites became known as Jews.

Now, even you know


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## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



And?


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



And, still no reputation points for the uneducated dunce after 3 years.

PFUCKTARD 





"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale"


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I thought it had been agreed we are all Palestinians. Now you say you are an Israelite. Make up your feeble mind.


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## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



BTW, where are those lost tribes?


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The lost tribes were repatriated by the Assyrians in the 8th century BCE.  

Now, you know.


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


When have they ever been "lost?" I ain't lost, just temporarily displaced.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



The Samaritans claim to represent the 10 lost tribes.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



Technically, Jews were palestinians during the time the Romans renamed Israel "palestine" in the 2nd century BCE, although, they continued to be known as Jews.


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


A wasted life. Such a pity. Go check out the Assembly of God. You'll become a Holy Roller, speak in tongues,scare little kids and all sorts of benefits.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Better, still, Judaism.  Jesus, after all, was Jewish, not "Christian"


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## docmauser1 (May 14, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Been a baptized Christian for decades._


Oh, tarqiya in action!


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## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Yes, that is correct. I think it has something to do with the "Mikvah" bath Jewish women take after their menustration is complete, to become clean and pure again. It is still practiced by many orthodox and religious Jewish women.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Roudy said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Correct.

After having been "baptised," by the Jewish John The Baptist, Jesus's Jewish beliefs further deepened and set him on his Jewish messianic course.

The Apostle Paul, also a Jew, was instrumental in the eventual split from Judaism that resulted in Christianity establishing its autonomy after his Road To Damascus experience.  In many respects, Paul did far more for the advancement of Christianity than Jesus Christ, himself


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## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


In Tinmore's case they stuck his head in a pile of shit.


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2012)

Roudy said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


A most accurate description. Did he hold his breath?


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## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...


Sadly what didn't go into his mouth went straight to his brain through his ears.


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## Roudy (May 14, 2012)

JStone said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudby -
> ...


Saigon = See a goon


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## Saigon (May 14, 2012)

Roudy - 

You still don't seem to have explained why you consider yourself 'well qualified' to post on Middle East topics. 

Most posters on this thread have answered fairly openly and honestly - why not step up to the plate?

It doesn't have to be a PhD...just whatever got you interested in the topic. 

Or feel free to ask my about my experience if you wish - I'm sure you read it.


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## JStone (May 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> You still don't seem to have explained why you consider yourself 'well qualified' to post on Middle East topics.
> 
> ...



SAIGON



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> You still don't seem to have explained why you consider yourself 'well qualified' to post on Middle East topics.
> 
> ...


Qualified beyond your imagination. That is how wrong you are. I can see right through your lies and deceipt. Not that I'm the only one. You are quite transparent, actually. While you think you're fooling people, you're actually busy making yourself look even more stupid and ignorant.


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## Roudy (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy -
> ...


If ever a poster fit the description of a dunce it would be this See a goon character.


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## High_Gravity (May 15, 2012)

Roudy said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


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## Roudy (May 15, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > _Been a baptized Christian for decades._
> ...


That is correct. I don't believe for one second this ass kisser of Islamo terrorists is a Christian in any way shape or form. It's basically lurking on the Israel Palestine forum 24/7, repeating the same IslamoNazi lies and anti semetism over and over again.  I wouldn't be surprised one little bit if it's a Muslim or married to one. We got Jos to slip up and expose that he's an Iranian Hezbollah scumbag when he accidentally admitted to be able to read Farsi.  It's only a question of time with this other dirtbag.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Roudy said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The Jews have the facts on their side.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Roudy said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



On another thread, Saigon whines about being constantly demolished by me because of his lack of education on Middle East history.  It's truly sad and pathetic and indicative of psychiatric issues in addition to having zero knowledge of the subject matter.


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## Jos (May 15, 2012)

I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Jos said:


> I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab



How's the persian empire doing, lately, pedophile worshipper? Oh, dat's right, Alexander the Great ended it 

Iran is the pathetic shithole remnant of a once-great empire


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roadby suggested the other day that people post their qualifications or background on this topic, and I think it's a great idea.
> 
> It's not a contest, but I'm curious to know who might have lived in Qatar, who might have a degree in Arabic, or who might have spent every summer at Yeshiva camp!
> 
> ...




I have never been to the ME, but I have worked with, taught, and befriended many hundreds of people from all over the region. In other words, I am in NO way any kind of expert or authority on the subject.


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab
> ...





You are a fucking bore, you dimwitted troll.


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## High_Gravity (May 15, 2012)

Roudy said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Only in the West can a non Muslim man marry a Muslima and get away with it, in Muslim countries that is completely forbidden and the marriage is not recognized unless the man converts.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...




Gosh, what a super funny picture of a middle finger! .........  


Get a new act, troll.


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Only in the West can a non Muslim man marry a Muslima and get away with it, in Muslim countries that is completely forbidden and the marriage is not recognized unless the man converts.




Although in a lot of places such a thing would be understood as being merely pro forma.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Isn't it time for your breast-feeding?


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...





No. Get a new act, troll.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



You seem cranky.  Tell mommy you'd like a little sip of milk


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...




You're boring, troll.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



You're cranky.  Lack of sex can do that.  Too bad you're so physically repulsive.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...



Penalty for apostasy in islime is death and many muslimes who wish to get out of that islimic hell are desperately in fear of being murdered by family members.


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## Jos (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab
> ...



Iran









More photos of "the pathetic shithole" hear The new root of truth.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Jos said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



Jos



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## Saigon (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare - 

I started a thread in the Feedback section complaining about JStone's endless spamming and abuse - feel free to post a comment there and maybe the Mods will start listening eventually!


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Unkotare -
> 
> I started a thread in the Feedback section complaining about JStone's endless spamming and abuse - feel free to post a comment there and maybe the Mods will start listening eventually!



Reality Check: You whined about being demolished by me over and over and over because you're embarrassingly uneducated on Middle East history and current events in the region.  You're an empty vessel.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Jos said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



*Iran's Morality Police Tighten Control On Women With The Rising Heat * 

Some 70,000 female police officers will be on the lookout for women dressed inappropriately on the streets of Iran in the rising summer heat, daily Vatan reported. 

Female police officers will be responsible for detecting and warning women who fail to dress in line with the moral code of the Iranian authorities. Officers too will be dressed in black burqas, and will be instructing Iranian women on how to cover themselves the right way. Routine hand checks will also be conducted to prevent any use of nail polish. 

The entire police force on dress code duty will be working overtime to cover every street in Iran, daily Vatan reported. 

MIDEAST - Iran's 'morality police' tighten control on women with the rising heat


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## Saigon (May 15, 2012)

JStone - 

If a post falls in the forest and no one reads it - does it still fall? 

You do realise that the only person on this board not to have you on ignore mode is you, right? 

Take my advice, dude - abandon this handle and come back as Mark32 again!


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> JStone -
> 
> If a post falls in the forest and no one reads it - does it still fall?
> 
> ...



You have nothing.


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## Hossfly (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Unkotare -
> 
> I started a thread in the Feedback section complaining about JStone's endless spamming and abuse - feel free to post a comment there and maybe the Mods will start listening eventually!


Thanks, Saigoon!! I too am getting fed up with Stoner's superior knowledge as well. Also MJB's continuous rant against the Jews/Zionists. The only way to root out and expose these creatures is to keep bombarding Dear Abby with complaints. Keep up the good work.


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## Saigon (May 15, 2012)

Hoss -

I don't believe JStone is a legitimate poster, and I'm surprised you do. 

I believe that he posts wrong information on purpose, and I believe does it for attention. 

As I've said a couple of times - when we see a poster who has never been within a thousand miles of the Middle East start telling people who live there what it is like - we're either dealing with a troll or someone delusional.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hoss -
> 
> I don't believe JStone is a legitimate poster, and I'm surprised you do.
> 
> ...



You're either delusional or flat-out mentally ill.  

You cannot bear being demolished by me, such as here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5286045-post350.html


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## Hossfly (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hoss -
> 
> I don't believe JStone is a legitimate poster, and I'm surprised you do.
> 
> ...


The secret to a forum is to read ALL responses to any particular thread. Most people don't, thereby missing significant responses and then replying to a third party's comments,causing things to go out of context. In order not to miss a response, I set up the forum to display the last post first, then scroll down to the last reply I read and work my way up. Works good for me and I never miss a response.


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## Jos (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Hoss -
> ...



Symptoms of Asperger&#8217;s Disorder | Psych Central


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Jos




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]


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## docmauser1 (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> _I started a thread in the Feedback section complaining about JStone's endless spamming and abuse - feel free to post a comment there and maybe the Mods will start listening eventually!_


Yeah, whatever it takes to stifle free speech, of course. Typical.


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## Saigon (May 15, 2012)

You know, there's actually a fairly easy way of determining who knows anything about the Middle East - at least if you're honest. 

Try this:

Jerusalem aside, think of the 10 towns most associated with the Israel/Palestine conflict: Ramallah, Quneitra, Gilo, Jericho, Amman, Homs, Netanya, Sidon, Nablus and Metullah. 

How many could you accurately position on a map?

If the answer is zero - and for s few posters here it would definitely be zero - you have no place telling people anything about this conflict.


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## Saigon (May 15, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > _I started a thread in the Feedback section complaining about JStone's endless spamming and abuse - feel free to post a comment there and maybe the Mods will start listening eventually!_
> ...



Absolutely - the endless spamming of off-topic videos and cartoons, really does stifle free speech - you've nailed it.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Endless whining over your complete inability to debate me due to your total lack of education in Middle East history and current events is not an effective debate technique.

Read and learn: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5286045-post350.html


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## Hossfly (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> You know, there's actually a fairly easy way of determining who knows anything about the Middle East - at least if you're honest.
> 
> Try this:
> 
> ...


Living down here in West by god Virginia, I know a lot of the goings on in the rest of the country without leaving my recliner, believe it or not. And you should remember what I said about the ME connections of a majority of the Jewish/Zionists posters here. They've lost interest in your position. Only took about 3 or 4 of your contributions.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > You know, there's actually a fairly easy way of determining who knows anything about the Middle East - at least if you're honest.
> ...



Moral of the story: Never bring a pocket knife to a gun fight


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## docmauser1 (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Damn! Poor mr. P F Tinmore et al.


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## Saigon (May 15, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > You know, there's actually a fairly easy way of determining who knows anything about the Middle East - at least if you're honest.
> ...



So that's a zero, then.

btw, I think you can get to know the US from your home in the US because you hve access to US media, news, you know people, and you have knowledge from school, but can you get to know Israel from the US? Absolutely not. Understanding this conflict means understanding something of the people, the cultures and places, and that means going there.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



You are a massive zero as demonstrated here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5286045-post350.html


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...




You're just a bore, troll. You've got nothing, so why not just go crawl back under your rock and fuck yourself?


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Unkotare -
> 
> I started a thread in the Feedback section complaining about JStone's endless spamming and abuse - feel free to post a comment there and maybe the Mods will start listening eventually!




He is a broken record of bigotry and idiocy.


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare -
> ...




Go away, troll.


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare -
> ...



Mirror mirror...


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## JStone (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



You forgot to attend your anger management session?  That must really piss you off


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## Unkotare (May 15, 2012)

JStone said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Troll troll...


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## Saigon (May 15, 2012)

Unkotare - 

It is easiest if you put him on ignore mode. It does help a bit!


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## Lipush (May 16, 2012)

Saigon said:


> You know, there's actually a fairly easy way of determining who knows anything about the Middle East - at least if you're honest.
> 
> Try this:
> 
> ...



Dude, Netanya?! NETANYA?? 

S E R I O U S L Y ?!


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## Saigon (May 16, 2012)

Lipush -

i put that in just for you!!!

(i was going to put Shebaa Farms, but then I remembered Netanya!!!)


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## Lipush (May 16, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush -
> 
> i put that in just for you!!!
> 
> (i was going to put Shebaa Farms, but then I remembered Netanya!!!)


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## Roudy (May 16, 2012)

Jos said:


> I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab


Bullshit. No way you can read Farsi and not be Iranian (or Afghan). No way you can read Arabic and not be a person of Arabic decent. You're not going to deceive anybody knows enough about that region, and I do, Hezbollah pig boy. I know that it's okay for you guys to lie in the name of Islam to the infidel Kuffar non believers. You made a mistake and disclosed your identity, now live with it Jos the Iranian Mullah kir sucker.


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## JStone (May 16, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush -
> 
> i put that in just for you!!!
> 
> (i was going to put Shebaa Farms, but then I remembered Netanya!!!)



How is Finland, today? http://www.usmessageboard.com/5286609-post1.html


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## Unkotare (May 16, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab
> ...




Are you kidding?


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## Hossfly (May 16, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


I didn't know that! Guess I'll have to book a trip on Christian Tours.I always wanted to see the Pyramids and the covered Bazaar, the Acropolis. I won't be able to sleep tonite. Thanks for the tips!


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## Hossfly (May 16, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


He's kidding. He's just a big ol' leg puller. He's a good ol' boy. Heart of gold though.


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## JStone (May 16, 2012)

> Quote: Originally Posted by Saigon
> btw, I think you can get to know the US from your home in the US because you hve access to US media, news, you know people, and you have knowledge from school, but can you get to know Israel from the US? Absolutely not. Understanding this conflict means understanding something of the people, the cultures and places, and that means going there.



You know Israel from Finland where you live?


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## Jos (May 16, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab
> ...



 I disclosed nothing other than the fact that I can read Farsi and Arabic, I can also read Spanish, does that make me a member of ETA?


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## Hossfly (May 16, 2012)

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


It makes you a wetback, Herman.


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## Hossfly (May 16, 2012)

JStone said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Didn't mean to cut you off Stoner.


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## JStone (May 16, 2012)

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



A multi-lingual monkey 

Jos


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## Saigon (May 16, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > I can  read Farsi and Arabic, that doesn't mean I am Iranian or Arab
> ...



Doesn't this post say it all??!!

I know several people who can read and write and talk Arabic, but aren't Arabs. I know several people who can read and write Hebrew (and aren't Jews) as well! And I have one friend who reads Farsi well. 

Dude - it's just anoother language!

And how wonderful that Roudy is STILL boasting expertise on this region - but STILL refusing to tell us why!!!


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## Tweezerman (May 16, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



You know Arabs in Finland where you live?


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## Saigon (May 16, 2012)

Tweezerman - 

I know more Arabs in countries like Syria, Jordan, Lebanon etc than I do in Finland.  

This is the thread where you get to give us your background and experience in the ME. It doesn't have to be a PhD - just whatever got you interested in the issue. 

Most posters here have posted their stories, although a few didn't have the balls. 

Do you?


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## Tweezerman (May 16, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Tweezerman -
> 
> I know more Arabs in countries like Syria, Jordan, Lebanon etc than I do in Finland.
> 
> ...



Stick to Finland.  You know nothing about the Middle East.


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## Saigon (May 16, 2012)

Tweezer - 

I don't respond to witless abuse. I know it is usually a sign that posters are getting angry, and I'm not interested in that. 

This is the thread where you get to give us your background and experience in the ME. It doesn't have to be a PhD - just whatever got you interested in the issue.

Most posters here have posted their stories, although a few didn't have the balls. Do you?


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## Lipush (May 17, 2012)

Tweezerman said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Tweezerman -
> ...



And what is YOUR background in the area?


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## Sunni Man (May 17, 2012)

Tweeserman = JStone


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## Swagger (May 17, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Tweezerman said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Tweezerman/JStone's only actual experience of the Middle East is spamming the ME forum of USMB. He spends every waking hour on here, so it's unlikely that that he's ever boarded even a domestic flight, let alone crossing the Atlantic and Med.


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## P F Tinmore (May 17, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



A similar thing happened to Laila El Haddad. She was in the states having a casual conversation with another woman. It came around where they were from. The one woman was from Israel and she asked where Laila was from. When she said she was from Gaza it was


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## Roudy (May 17, 2012)

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


Douchebag, I have yet to meet a single non Iranian who can read Farsi.  You claimed to be able read a sign BACKWARD in front of two people being hung in Iran. There were objects in front of it as well. Now, there's no way ANYBODY can read that sign or make out anything it's saying, even remotely close, if you're not FLUENT in Farsi, in other words born Iranian. Now, I do know some women who have married Iranian men and out of respect and love for their spouse, they learned Farsi. But those Iranian men aren't scumbag Hezbollah animals like you, and they would spit in your face, actually MOST IRANIANS here in the US and inside Iran would spit in your face. I honestly can't think of a single Iranian that is pro the Islamists that are ruling Iran now.  You are a traitor to your people.   

Besides, what would a non Iranian non Arab be doing learning those languages?  Are you one of those terrorist enemy within cells?  Or a Moooslime convert?  

When in a hole, stop digging Mullah Kir Sucker.


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## jillian (May 17, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



Arabic isn't farsi. and farsi isn't just another language. the only people i know who speak farsi are people who were born in iran or whose parent(s) was(were) born in iran.

Most jews can read and write hebrew in order to study for bar/bat mitzvot and it's what is taught in hebrew school. i don't know of a similar circumstance with respect to arabic. so i'm a little skeptical about your claim.


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## Roudy (May 17, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Tweezerman -
> 
> I know more Arabs in countries like Syria, Jordan, Lebanon etc than I do in Finland.
> 
> ...


Apparently now the liar Saigon forgot its original story. I doubt it even lives in Finland. Never Believe a sympathizer and propagandist for Islamist mass murderers and terrorists.   They are usually mentally ill psychos that at times even forget the lies they spew, and have zero self respect. They are basically looking for more ignorant illiterates like themselves, and as we can see , there's plenty of them on this board. Jstone slaps them in the face with the truth about Islam and Muslim culture and civiization as it is today, and they can't handle it. So the next step is they whine and whine until they got him banned. 

All IslamoNazi lovers are whiners.


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## High_Gravity (May 17, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I do agree its definently not common to meet many non Iranians that speak Farsi there is still the possibility of foreigners being able to speak it as well as read it and write it. In the Military there is a demand right now for Arabic, Farsi, Korean and Chinese speakers, as well as Russian. They have training schools where they can teach you to speak, read and write the language, so there are people out there that can do it, in the Military on deployment to Kuwait I met someone who was training in the Russian language but was thrown out of the school because he got a DUI.


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## Roudy (May 17, 2012)

jillian said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Jillian, let's not forget that Jos claimed to read a sign in Farsi BACKWARDS, and partially blocked by the pole that was holding it up. Farsi isn't Arabic, although it uses the Arabic alphabet thanks to the Arab invasion of Iran. Those who know Farsi and claim to be able to read Arabic, do so because they might be religious Muslims who read from the Koran, which is in Arabic. The occasions I have met a non Iranian speak Farsi was due to marriage, but even then, they couldn't write it properly, and certainly weren't fluent enough to be able to read a sign backward partially blocked in Farsi. For that, you would need a formal education IN IRAN.


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## Roudy (May 17, 2012)

Saigon said:


> You know, there's actually a fairly easy way of determining who knows anything about the Middle East - at least if you're honest.
> 
> Try this:
> 
> ...


It is more than obvious to those who do know about the Middle East, that you Saigon are totally ignorant about it.  But here's a novel idea for you to chew on: What makes you think anybody with even an ounce of self respect would share their personal background info and life history with an anonymous, ignorant, Islamo terrorist worshipping mentally ill moron called "Saigon"?  

Stick the hyphens in there for me, will you, looser?


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## Jos (May 17, 2012)

Its true, once one Pro-Israeli nutcase gets a ban, another one springs up


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## Lipush (May 17, 2012)

Jos said:


> Its true, once one Pro-Israeli nutcase gets a ban, another one springs up



Why is there a need to ban someone who think otherwise then you, hua?

Or are you one of those Islamo-fascists people who are against freedom of speech?


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## Roudy (May 17, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Its true, once one Pro-Israeli nutcase gets a ban, another one springs up
> ...


He thinks this is Iran or some other Islamist shithole where they kill or torture those who have different opinions. You can take a dog out of the circus but you can never take the circus out of the Islamist dog.


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## Roudy (May 17, 2012)

Jos said:


> Its true, once one Pro-Israeli nutcase gets a ban, another one springs up


What's true, you lying coward, that you can't even admit you're an Iranian Islamist pro Hezbollah piece of Shi'ite?  How much whining did you engage in to get Jstone banned?


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## Hossfly (May 17, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Unkotare -
> 
> I started a thread in the Feedback section complaining about JStone's endless spamming and abuse - feel free to post a comment there and maybe the Mods will start listening eventually!


Well done Saigoon! Stoney's banned (he'll be back) as is Tweezerman.The rest of the Zionists are at your mercy. Soon you'll have nobody to talk to except Jos, Del and Tinmore (snicker) 
In my case I promise to be a good boy so please don't hit me no mo' boss. I promise I will be good, Cap'n. Just please don't hit me no mo'. You knows I don't know nuthin' 'bout no middleast.I never heard nuthin' 'bout no midlleast and I don't keer nuthin' 'bout no middleast. The plain fack is I never herd of no middleast til you brought it up. I jes like to talk like I know things to impress the Joos. I'm on your side Cap'n. I gotta go now. Bye,Cap'n.


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## High_Gravity (May 17, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare -
> ...


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## Hossfly (May 17, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare -
> ...


P.S. Iffen you need any help boss just give ol' Hoss a call. He knows where the bones are berried.


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## Sunni Man (May 17, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Its true, once one Pro-Israeli nutcase gets a ban, another one springs up
> ...


Freedom of speech is fine.

Freedom to spam like JStone did is bad.

Big difference.


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## Lipush (May 17, 2012)

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



I am all for stop spamming. However, that's not the way Jos' has put things.


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## Saigon (May 21, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare -
> ...



I think you are a little smarter than that, Hoss. Do you see anyone here suggesting that you, Roudy, MJB or any other poster be banned? 

I don't. 

I didn't ask for Tweezerman to be banned - although it was so obviously Mark32/JStone he Mods obviously decided to take all of his handles out for good. 

I have nothing against the guy posting here - but without spamming threads.


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## Saigon (May 21, 2012)

Roudy said:


> It is more than obvious to those who do know about the Middle East, that you Saigon are totally ignorant about it.  But here's a novel idea for you to chew on: What makes you think anybody with even an ounce of self respect would share their personal background info and life history with an anonymous, ignorant, Islamo terrorist worshipping mentally ill moron called "Saigon"?
> 
> Stick the hyphens in there for me, will you, looser?



Firstly, because if you could prove me wrong about anything - you'd definitely want to. 

Secondly, because anyone with any self-respect would probably also be able to figure out that someone who has lived and worked in Israel and supports Israel's right to exist is probably not pro-Islamic. 

Honestly - at the point where your knowledge of the conflict is so poor that you can't even figure out what side your fellow posters are on, it may be worth giving up lecturing, and starting to ask more questions.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Why don't you go back and read your own words, liar. You admitted to reporting both Jstone and myself because you're a whiney little terrorist loving beatch, on this thread http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/223214-what-is-your-background-interest-in-the-middle-east-4.html#post5270578.  Liars have bad memories.

 You guys just don't like it when somebody tells the truth about Islam and Muslim culture, so whining is all you have.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > It is more than obvious to those who do know about the Middle East, that you Saigon are totally ignorant about it.  But here's a novel idea for you to chew on: What makes you think anybody with even an ounce of self respect would share their personal background info and life history with an anonymous, ignorant, Islamo terrorist worshipping mentally ill moron called "Saigon"?
> ...


Stuff it up your Mohammad, slimeball. Nobody's falling for it.  With friends like you Jews and Isael don't need any enemies.  Run along now.  Yallah.  Heh heh.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


Jos is an incompetent Iranian Islamist Hezbollah slimeball that lurks around all day reviewing every word you post, to report infractions or violations of those who's opinions are not in line with a toilet brained Mullah sucker like himself.  That game can only last for a while, and then it starts working against him, because other than than whining and bitching, they really have nothing else to do or say, but to embarass themselves on this board constantly.  Check out some of his posts and see how he gets  bitch slapped and exposed for being a retard in public.


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## eots (May 22, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcwQ5sKUmEY]A Jewish woman cries - Leave Israel alone to kill! - YouTube[/ame]


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## Lipush (May 22, 2012)

Nice one Eots, it would have actually be interesting if you didn't post the same thing 1000 times. Is it the second Jstone?

Since this thread is about background and self excperience, and if people don't mind me sharing.

The first one was of the closest friend of mine, when she was about 15. She lives in a town near Jerusalem. On the way home, the father of the family saw that the vihicle who drove ahead of them, suddenly disappeard from eyesight. Few minutes afterwars the noise of samthing being fired was heard, and they saw the spoken car nearby the road. my friend told me that all she could remember was hearing screams.

The Palestinians stood on the hills, waited for the passingby cars, and the snipers took their shots, and like that were gone. 

A baby died that day.

Second experience was mine. I don't remember the date, But I do remember, it was a Sunday, about 10 am. I just got released from the army, few days before the incident, i was about to meet with a friend of mine few hours afterwards, but in the meantime I drove to the city's largest shopping mall, to buy some new cloths and enjoy the free time I have. I suddenly felt hungry, so I got down to the mall's first floor, to have a sandwich and a cup of coffee. I sat in the western corner of the floor, right nearby the stairs. On the other side there was the joystick corner, where the kids will play while adults eat. It was a Sunday, so obviously the shopping mall was full. looking around, I remmber a beduin family, a mother, two small children. On the otherside, two female soldiers, who were next to me in the line, sat in the farer table, joking about boys. I opened the book I brought with me, and pulling the cellphone out, I called my mom, to ask if she felt well this morning, if she needed me to buy something for her.

While we were talking, I suddenly heard 3 or 4 boom-like sounds; I got pissed, and thought to myself, "Stupid kids, what the hell do they think they're doing, throwing detonators in an overcrowded shopping mall??' But then, for half a second, there was complete silence, and then it all happened extemely fast. I saw the bedouin mother yelling something to her children in Arabic, then taking one in his hand, one in her arms, and starts running. towards the exist. two young boys in the area did the same. the two female soldiers, unarmed, got up quickly and ran towards the exist. all in a matter of seconds, then I heard another "boom" sound. I saw the people behind the coffee-shop trying to hide behind the counter. not wasting another second, I started running muself. the book and the food, together with my bad, were left behind. I simply remember feeling my heartbeat much faster, yelling to my mother on the phone, "Ima, Mechabel, Mechabel! ("Mom, a terrorist, a terrorist!"). Took me a second to realize someone just nearly shot me, I saw one of the two female soldiers burst out crying, the mother running outside trying to calm her wailing child, that must have figured something bad happened, and I couldn't stop shaking. The guard in the entrance simply looked confused. 

The city of Be'er Sheva knew in the last 18 years about 5 terror attacks, a very low number compared to Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. If any terror comes, it's through rockets or Missiles, not through an armed man, not in the way it happened that day. I remember that at some point we realized someone was hurt, tried to hurry to help the guy, I remember seeing him bleeding, there was nothing we could have done. some other people were slightly hurt, but not to bad, not like that young man, in his twenties. the shopping mall was closed after security forces arrived. nearly 10 Ambulances, cops on motorcycles, I simply ran outside and nearly threw up remembering the bleeding man. I couldn't stop shaking. the people who came to the shopping mall were locked outside, they figured what happened because sudden harsh movement of ambulances and police forces is not something that the citizen of Be'er Sheva is used  to see. After the incident, that was immediately on the news, I calmed my mom over and over by the phone, that all my body parts are intact, but that I was coming back home, I had no desire staying in that area longer than a few minutes more. 

since that morning, I don't approach the first floor in that shopping mall.


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

When will our leaders step up to the plate and end this madness. When I look at all the losers we have now I can only see more war.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Nice one Eots, it would have actually be interesting if you didn't post the same thing 1000 times. Is it the second Jstone?
> 
> Since this thread is about background and self excperience, and if people don't mind me sharing.
> 
> ...


Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.



And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?


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## Hossfly (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.
> ...


Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Or we could consider something I was told in Israel:

How do you create a terrorist?

You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Nice one Eots, it would have actually be interesting if you didn't post the same thing 1000 times. Is it the second Jstone?
> 
> Since this thread is about background and self excperience, and if people don't mind me sharing.
> 
> ...



Amazing stories - really disturbing. 

I am so sorry you have to live through those things....not sure how well I could cope with something like that. 

Thanks for posting those.


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Terrorism is a bulldozer at my front door. ~ Palestinian poet


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## Artevelde (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Nice story, but not really accurate. Terrorism is fuelled by the hate of those who propagate it.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.
> ...


The practice I suggested never happened. Something close to it happened in southern Lebanon, after Israel decimated all Hezbollah strongholds and leveled the whole area into a parking lot.  Of course after that a lot of whining ensued and Israel had to pull back. But the end result is Hezbollah got the message. By admission of the Hezbollah leader himself he said he would never have done it if he knew it would spark such a reaction from the Israelis. 

I am surprised you claim to have lived in Israel and know nothing about Muslim mentality.  You are quite ignorant.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Satan has fully occupied the brain of Tiny and the barbaric Muslim savages he supports.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Oh OK! so let's not go after the terrorist mass murderers then, it might create more terrorists. Defective logic from a defective mind.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Roudy said:


> The practice I suggested never happened. Something close to it happened in southern Lebanon, after Israel decimated all Hezbollah strongholds and leveled the whole area into a parking lot.  Of course after that a lot of whining ensued and Israel had to pull back. But the end result is Hezbollah got the message. By admission of the Hezbollah leader himself he said he would never have done it if he knew it would spark such a reaction from the Israelis.



It happened in Gaza, of course, and to a great extent than it ever happened in Southern Lebanon, because Gaza is such a confined area, whereas Southern Lebanon is not - fighters could move east in Shebaa Farms or north into Bekaa.

You don't say which incursion into Lebanon you mean, but obviously the area was never "turned into a parking lot" the way parts of Gaza were. If you mean 1980, then as I mentioned earlier - this saw membership in Hezbollah increase 400%.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Roudy said:


> You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.


Oh OK! so let's not go after the terrorist mass murderers then, it might create more terrorists. Defective logic from a defective mind.[/QUOTE]

The point is that collective punishment - widely used by Israel since Intifada 1 - has helped create terror. 

No one is suggesting that acts of terror should go unpunished - but punishing people who have not comitted acts of terror only encourages them to do so. 

I do recommend this book on this topic:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Palestine-How-End-1948/dp/1583225382]Amazon.com: Israel/Palestine: How to End the War of 1948 (9781583225387): Tanya Reinhart: Books[/ame]


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## Artevelde (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The practice I suggested never happened. Something close to it happened in southern Lebanon, after Israel decimated all Hezbollah strongholds and leveled the whole area into a parking lot.  Of course after that a lot of whining ensued and Israel had to pull back. But the end result is Hezbollah got the message. By admission of the Hezbollah leader himself he said he would never have done it if he knew it would spark such a reaction from the Israelis.
> ...



Gaza wasn't "turned into a parkig lot". But the application of strong retaliation did stop the escalating attacks out of Gaza. Such a retaliatory policy is effective, but lasts only for so long. 
In the long run a complete shut off of Israel from the Palestinian territories is a first form of defense (see the very effective barrier along the West Bank) coupled with finding strong enough partners in the Palestinian territories willing to engage the terrorists. This last part is the most difficult of course.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Artevelde - 

I wouldn't have said "a carp park", but in parts of Gaza the rate of destruction was compared with that of Stalingrad in WWII - in one district some 65% of buildings were damaged. This is greater than the destruction visited upon Hanoi in the Viet Nam war by some distance, and right up there with some of the most greivous acts of wholesale destruction in history - Rotterdam, Dresden and Nanking, for instance. 

I do agree that leveling an area has the short term effect of stopping terror attacks, but in the long term it may well create more. It escalates the conflict, and in some ways justifies the use of terror. 

It's a pointless act on wanton destruction and is not intended as a marker towards peace.


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## Artevelde (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde -
> 
> I wouldn't have said "a carp park", but in parts of Gaza the rate of destruction was compared with that of Stalingrad in WWII - in one district some 65% of buildings were damaged. This is greater than the destruction visited upon Hanoi in the Viet Nam war by some distance, and right up there with some of the most greivous acts of wholesale destruction in history - Rotterdam, Dresden and Nanking, for instance.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but comparing what happened in Gaza to the bombing of Dresden or even worse, the massacres in Nanking, is simply completely ridiculous, if not offensive. The number of civilian casualtiesc in Gaza was very slight and the destruction was pretty limited.
When somebody launches non-stop missile attacks they must expect appropriate retaliation. Otherwise the attacks just increase. What exactly would have been the alternative? For the Israeli government to do nothing?


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## Lipush (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Or a Gush Kattif settler.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Artevelde - 

I can't agree. While the number of civilian casualities was not terrible (around 2,000 Palestinian lives), I would hardly call that very slight - it is higher than the entire first Nagorno Karabakh war, for instance. 

There are still people dying from exposure to the depleted uranium (and white phosphorus) used by Israel as well - almost all are children and infants. 

I think we can assume that if Palestinians used depleted uranium against Israeli civilian targets - you'd be appalled. I know I would be. 

Here is an overview of the damage - again. remember this is a confined area, with few avenues of escape for civilians. 

Early estimates by independent contractors in Gaza say that Gaza lost nearly $2 billion in assets, including *4,000 homes* destroyed.[354] *The IDF destroyed 600&#8211;700 factories,* small industries, workshops and business enterprises throughout the Gaza Strip,[355] 24 mosques, 31 security compounds, and 10 water or sewage lines.[356] The World Health Organization said that *34 health facilities (8 hospitals and 26 primary health care clinics*) were damaged over the course of the offensive and the UNOCHA said that over 50 United Nations facilities sustained damage, of which 28 reported damage in the first three days of the operation.[357] On 22 January 2010, Israel paid $10.5 million in compensation to the United Nations for damages to UN property incurred during the Israeli offensive.[358]

A satellite-based damage assessment of the Gaza Strip by the United Nations revealed *2,692 destroyed and severely damaged buildings,* 220 impact craters on roads and bridges with an estimated length of 167 km (104 mi) of paved and unpaved roads damaged, 714 impact craters on open ground or cultivated land with an estimated land area of 2,100 hectares (21 km²), 187 greenhouses completely destroyed or severely damaged with an estimated area of 28 hectares (0.28 km²), and 2,232 hectares (22.32 km²) of demolished zones targeted by IDF bulldozers, tanks and phosphorus shelling.[359]

Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> . What exactly would have been the alternative?



The alternative would have been a move towards a full and complete peace settlement, backed by the ongoing use of drones and surveillance to take out rocket launchers.


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## Artevelde (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde -
> 
> I can't agree. While the number of civilian casualities was not terrible (around 2,000 Palestinian lives), I would hardly call that very slight - it is higher than the entire first Nagorno Karabakh war, for instance.
> 
> ...



A very large percentage of those killed were Hamas police and Hamas fighters, i.e. combattants. Comparing this to Nanking or Dresden is a perverse and disgusting travesty.


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## Artevelde (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > . What exactly would have been the alternative?
> ...



Hamas, which rules Gaza, doesn't want peace and wants to destroy Israel.

Basically, your solution would mean Israel would simply have to reverse it's withdrawal  from Gaza and again occupy it. I don't think this is going to happen and it would not be smart in any event.

Just shooting back at the places where rockets are launched from would mean that Israel would indeed have to completely obliterate Gaza killing many tens of thousands. Also not really a smart idea.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> A very large percentage of those killed were Hamas police and Hamas fighters, i.e. combattants. Comparing this to Nanking or Dresden is a perverse and disgusting travesty.



I did not compare the event with Dresden - I compared the rate of destruction of buildings (as a percentage of the total). I used this only to demonstrate that the impact of bombing was extremely high in some areas. 

Many of those killed were combatants, I agree. And I genuinely believe Israel intended to target combatants. 

But the majority of the dead were civilians. 

Their brothers, cousins and children will likely be the next generation of terrorists.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Hamas, which rules Gaza, doesn't want peace and wants to destroy Israel.
> 
> Basically, your solution would mean Israel would simply have to reverse it's withdrawal  from Gaza and again occupy it. I don't think this is going to happen and it would not be smart in any event.
> 
> .



No, not at all - I suggest a far more complex arrangement than that, one largely marginalizing Hamas and with the West Bank as the key.  

This is a complex issue - it is not suited to simple one line solutions. I don't have time to outline it here, but it might make a good thread some other day.


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## Artevelde (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > A very large percentage of those killed were Hamas police and Hamas fighters, i.e. combattants. Comparing this to Nanking or Dresden is a perverse and disgusting travesty.
> ...



You did make that comparison. Saying that the destruction is similar because a limited number of structures were as much destroyed as a much greater number of structures in another place and in a totally different context is ludicrous.

Fact is that the Israeli intervention in Gaza achieved its aim. The barrage of rockets stopped. And if and when the barrage of rockets resumes in the same way, the response will be pretty much the same. Action and reaction.


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## Artevelde (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas, which rules Gaza, doesn't want peace and wants to destroy Israel.
> ...



Yes, it is a complex issue. And you don't marginalize Hamas by letting them getting away with sending a barrage of missiles into Israel.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



That has happened to a Palestinian woman from the PA (fiance and brother died by IDF soldier), and she went and killed 8 Israeli children because of it.

does it make it ok? Of course not.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



No, it doesn't make it ok - we are all responsible for our own actions. 

But I find it easier to understand why someone might hate another ethnic group when I hear that this ethinic group killed his brother or something. I can imagine that that might posion your mind with hatred, or a need for revenge.


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde -
> 
> I can't agree. While the number of civilian casualities was not terrible (around 2,000 Palestinian lives), I would hardly call that very slight - it is higher than the entire first Nagorno Karabakh war, for instance.
> 
> ...



Of course this shows that the objective was to destroy as much civilian infrastructure as possible. An attack on civilians.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.
> ...



The point is that collective punishment - widely used by Israel since Intifada 1 - has helped create terror. 

No one is suggesting that acts of terror should go unpunished - but punishing people who have not comitted acts of terror only encourages them to do so. 

I do recommend this book on this topic:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Palestine-How-End-1948/dp/1583225382]Amazon.com: Israel/Palestine: How to End the War of 1948 (9781583225387): Tanya Reinhart: Books[/ame][/QUOTE]
What form of punishment do the Palestinians engage in when they shoot rockets into Israeli cities or send suicide bombers into children's schools and pizza parlors?  I think you have some type of virus in your brain that makes you see everything upside down. Or perhaps you read from and follow the Mein Kampf I mean Koran.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Well of course. Anger is natural. wishing for revenge is natural. We feel it too, here, when someone gets blown up in a buss or a shopping mall.

After the Itamar Carnage, thousands of Israelis called for "Price Tag" action, demanding to take revenge on Palestinians for killing those little children. 

But what makes us different then animals is that we're able to THINK. If all we have is "price tag" and revenge, then when will the bloodshed stop? we have to choose to make it stop.

In Judaism, we see revenge as sacred, for it appears between the two words describing God. "El Nekamot Adoni" ("God of vengeance is the Lord"). But even revenge must end at some point.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde -
> ...



Attack on civilians must stop when both sides respect it here. People cannot come here, expect me to feel empathy for a Palestinian mother or child, when missiles are falling in my town. There is a limit to how much people can be assholes.


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Has Israel ever told you why those rockets come out of Gaza?

Of course not.


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## Hossfly (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I'll play your silly game, Tinny. Why do the rockets and mortars come out of Gaza? Is it for retaliation?


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Look it up. You wouldn't believe me anyway.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



As the small person, I don't really care for the reason of the Gaza rockets being fired as much as the Palestinian doesn't care for the reason why Gaza is attacked by the IDF.

I just want it to stop. I really don't care about the logic behind the insanity of the situation i'm living in. YOU outsiders look for reason or logic. In time of war, where we live in, we don't try to find reasoning. We simply live.

That is what separate you from us. after you turn off your computer, you go living your life in the good ol' American movie. -We- live in the same situation in which we discuss.

You get me now?


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Has Hamas told you why Israel keeps sending their leaders to Mars?  Of course not.  I heard the Mars Rover found parts of Sheikh Yassin's wheelchair on mars. I wonder how it got there?  Any guesses there, Tiny Brain?


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



OK, but what have you done to stop the war or do you just support it?


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## Hossfly (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


She said she was a soldier and is now going to university.
What is your claim to fame?


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## Unkotare (May 22, 2012)

I know, let's have both sides agree to stop attacking each other.  How about  both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits. What about both sides agreeing that the other side has the right to exist? How's that for a start? When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.


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## Hossfly (May 22, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> I know, let's have both sides agree to stop attacking each other.  How about  both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits. What about both sides agreeing that the other side has the right to exist? How's that for a start? When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.


Hamas Charter explains everything in detail. Let's start with that. Over.


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> I know, let's have both sides agree to stop attacking each other.  How about  both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits. What about both sides agreeing that the other side has the right to exist? How's that for a start? When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.





> How about both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits.



Hamas has already made that offer to Israel. Israel rejected it.


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## Unkotare (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > I know, let's have both sides agree to stop attacking each other.  How about  both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits. What about both sides agreeing that the other side has the right to exist? How's that for a start? When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.
> ...





Link?

And how about the part where they both agree that the other side has the right to exist?


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## Hossfly (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > I know, let's have both sides agree to stop attacking each other.  How about  both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits. What about both sides agreeing that the other side has the right to exist? How's that for a start? When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.
> ...


Absolutely! Who would agree to co-operate with someone whos State Charter says they will annihilate you?


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



In 2003 we went to Cairo. The Egyptians asked whether Hamas is ready to stop the martyrdom operations or not. We gave the Egyptians a better offer. We were ready to have an agreement to stop targeting civilians [on] both sides. The army is supposed to fight, but civilians should be out of it. The Egyptians agreed and passed it on to the Israelis.

Halevi went back to Israel, but Sharon rejected the proposal.

A Dialogue with Hamas - Part 1 - Worldpress.org



> And how about the part where they both agree that the other side has the right to exist?



Arafat did that during Oslo. Israel has not reciprocated.



> When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.



Amen


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## Unkotare (May 22, 2012)

I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?



You asked for a link I gave you one.

Would you like another?


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?


Tiny Brain uses whatever means it can to defend the Hamas animals. Dont give tiny a hard time.  Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by the US state dept and most other civilized world nations.  So Tiny is defending the indefensible.  It has to lie and deceive. What else can it do?


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## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?
> ...



Terrorists attack civilians.



> In fact, Hamas did not work to target civilians. It is so simple if you want to do that. However, Hamas does not target schools, cinemas, hospitals, which the Israelis have done all the time.
> 
> The main question was about the settlers: Are they civilians or not? According to the Geneva Accord they are not. Even according to the Israelis they are not.
> 
> A Dialogue with Hamas - Part 1 - Worldpress.org



That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Roudy said:


> What form of punishment do the Palestinians engage in when they shoot rockets into Israeli cities or send suicide bombers into children's schools and pizza parlors?  I think you have some type of virus in your brain that makes you see everything upside down. Or perhaps you read from and follow the Mein Kampf I mean Koran.



Roudy - 

Sending suicide bomber into a school is an act of terrorism. 

Bulldozing all of the fields surrounding the village the terrorist lived in is an active of collective punishment. Arresting and detaining 20 young men from the village as a warning is an act of colletive punishment. 

You will never get to Square One in this debate unless you can understand why both are both morally indefensible, and why both are counter-productive.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Attack on civilians must stop when both sides respect it here. People cannot come here, expect me to feel empathy for a Palestinian mother or child, when missiles are falling in my town. There is a limit to how much people can be assholes.



Yes, I agree. When I lived in Dan I felt the same way. 

Which is why I think it is even more important that those of us who live in safety and free from the thread of katyusha can also feel empathy for all civilians, on all sides. 

All attacks against civilians are wrong.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > What form of punishment do the Palestinians engage in when they shoot rockets into Israeli cities or send suicide bombers into children's schools and pizza parlors?  I think you have some type of virus in your brain that makes you see everything upside down. Or perhaps you read from and follow the Mein Kampf I mean Koran.
> ...


Bulldozing a terrorists house is morally indefensible?  Here in the US when you commit mass murder, the govt. will also make you compensate monetarily to the victims families.  That compensation can include your house and any assets you have, and those that aided and abetted you.  Israel no longer bulldozes terrorist's houses, but even if they did at one time, I think that is pretty light punishment in comparison to what the perpetrator does.  Your comparison and putting on the same level, an Islamist animal taking innocent children's lives, to Israel's destruction of the perpetrators property is what is morally reprehensible in my opinion, and it is useful idiots like you that the Islamists prey on to deceive the world.  Look up terrorist appeaser in the dictionary, you might find your image next to it.   Everytime you explain yourself you prove even further how ignorant you are of Muslim mentality.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2012)

Roudy - 

As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again: 

Bulldozing a terrorists house is fine with me. 

Bulldozing the entire street, and the houses of 20 innocent familes, is an act of collective punishment. 

Bulldozing the crops of an entire village is an act of collective punishment.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


No Hamas and Hezbollah really are terrorists.  Complaining about calling them terrorists is the same as complaining about calling Al Queda terrorist.


----------



## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Terrorists attack civilians.
> 
> 
> That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.



I don't agree with that - Hamas have attacked civilians on numerous occasions. 

I certainly consider both Hamas and Hezbollah to be terrorist organisations because they both have military wings which commit acts of terror - much like the IRA with the wider Sinn Fein organisation. 

Both Hamas and Hezbollah also do a lot of good work with their own people (providing relief aid, housing, healthcare), but that does not mean they do not also commit acts of terror.


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## Lipush (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



'Support a war'? 

Are you high?

Didn't I say that I'm a southern and that missiles are falling in my town?

Why on earth will I SUPPORT the war?

And WHO DOES THAT, anyway? I don't know of any people who support the war. 

And what did I do to stop it? Truthfully, not much. you've got any ideas? I'm out of any.


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again:
> 
> ...


Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism.  Your appeasement mindset will never work with Islamists and will be interpreted as a sign of weakness which will only embolden the enemy.  Not too long ago, Israel evacuated Gaza and gave the Palestinians their wish, made it Jew free. It forcibly removed it's own citizens from the land it had conquered in a defensive war.  You would expect some appreciation and gratitute for this step, and some good will in return from the Palestinians.  But as expected and predicted, the Palestinians proved once again, that they were and will never be interested in peace with Israel.  The evacuation of Gaza also proved that it is not land alone that will appease the Palestinians.  It became clear to Israel and the world, through subsequent actions of the Palestinians in Gaza (rocket shootings, terrorism, the usual savagery, etc., ALL TOTALLY UNPROVOKED) that it is the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews that will only satisfy them.  And the only land that will satisfy the Palestinians will be the entire land that the state of Israel sits on.  

I don't see what the problem really is here.  The Palestinian Hamas leaders keep telling the Muslim world in Arabic that they will never accept Israel's right to exist, never honor any agreement until the entire "Zionist Entity" is destoyed and instead an Islamist Kalifate of Palestine replaces it.  Their charter also clearly calls for the destruction of Israel and massacre of Jews (it is important to note that Hamas wants all Jews, Israeli or not, dead).  And quite clearly, they are following their charter and ideology to the T.  Yet somehow, there are morons like you, that keep telling us non of this matters much, Israel is to ignore all of this and trust these animals as honorable and peaceful people, and reward the Hamas savages with even more land, that isn't there's to begin with.  Only a person on drugs or totally delusional would this way.  Either way, you're dreaming.  With every day that passes by, there will be less land to talk about.  Time is against the Palestinian side.  When Iran and Syria collapse, so will the financing and sponsorship of Palestinian terror.  Their hand is weakening by the minute.


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Terrorists attack civilians.
> ...


For once I agree with you.  But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..



Of course it has - on literally hundreds - if not thousands - of occasions!! 

Honestly - how can you not know this stuff, and still be too lazy to check?

You can find information on this in dozens of authoritive books, and on hundreds of websites. There is a very fine line between making mistakes because you have not seen the facts, and being deliberately ignorant. I did suggest a book by an Israeli author earlier which provides immense detail - presumably you chose not to read it. 

Here is a piece of video - at about 1 minute in, you can see troops destroying crops by hand. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1to70X0FNlo]Israeli Police Invade, Destroy vegetable crops and Cut off water supply - YouTube[/ame]


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy - 

Here is another story about Christian Nuns who are being cut off from their crops and livelihood. 

Again, this is collective punishment, and is directed against innocent people.

BBC News - Bethlehem nuns in West Bank barrier battle


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Terrorists attack civilians.
> ...



It is misleading to say that Hamas attacks civilians. "Civilian" is not the definitive term in international law. The term used is protected persons. Not all civilians are protected persons. Active militants, for example, are not protected persons even though they are civilians. Only when protected persons are targeted is it terrorism.

The nationals of an occupying power (in this case Israeli citizens) are also exempt from the protected persons class.


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.



Honestly, what utter, childish nonsense!! Why do you post guesses when you don't have a clue?

Both Hamas and Hezbollah provide services to citizens who live within their areas of operation, because both are de facto governments in those areas. They also provided services as quasi-NGOs prior to forming de facto governments. 

Hezbollah have become hugely and genuinely popular in Southern Lebanon because in many villages are are the only authority which seem to make any effort to help people - why not go and see for yourself?


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..
> ...



That is true. Israel has bulldozed about 30% of Gaza's agricultural land.


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## Artevelde (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.
> ...



This is true. It doesn't change the fact that both are murderous terrorist organizations with whom no compromise is possible.


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## Artevelde (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > What form of punishment do the Palestinians engage in when they shoot rockets into Israeli cities or send suicide bombers into children's schools and pizza parlors?  I think you have some type of virus in your brain that makes you see everything upside down. Or perhaps you read from and follow the Mein Kampf I mean Koran.
> ...



I disagree with certain of the forms of collective punishment that Israel uses because they are unjustified and/or ineffective. But I also strongly disagree with the equation you make between these actions and suicide terrorism.


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## Artevelde (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again:
> 
> ...



I would have to agree with that.


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Artevelde - 

Just to be clear here, I consider any act of murder to be far worse than any act which does not take life. Terror is an act of murder, and thus far worse than collective punishment, which does not cost lives. 

For me this is a bit like comparing rape and burglary - both are serious crimes, but most of us would expext the former to carry a stiffer sentence.


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## Lipush (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



In that case Americans are not civilians either. 

It does not matter the least how you chose to call it, it still unarmed people, innocent people. That is the defenision of "civilian".

Poteto potato. No excuse is there to harm us, we did nothing to hurt anyone (southerners).


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



This raises some interesting questions.



> It does not matter the least how you chose to call it, it still unarmed people, innocent people. That is the defenision of "civilian".



Indeed.











Israeli citizens are an integral and necessary part of the occupation. If it were not for its citizens, Israel would be no more than an office in tel Aviv.



> Poteto potato. No excuse is there to harm us, we did nothing to hurt anyone (southerners).



See above.


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## Urbanguerrilla (May 23, 2012)

JStone said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Stoner's interest is spam.
> ...



Wtf are you talking about???

You're in exactly the same position as him:

JStone 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 13,998 
Thanks: 423
Thanked 920 Times in 834 Posts 
*Rep Power: 0 * 

You're like the dumbest kid in class calling the kid beside you 'an idiot'


----------



## High_Gravity (May 23, 2012)

Urbanguerrilla said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Well to be fair the only reason JStone's rep is 0 now is because he is banned.


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## High_Gravity (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy -
> ...



Well I do have to agree with this, Hamas wants all of Israel, not just Gaza.


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## Urbanguerrilla (May 23, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Urbanguerrilla said:
> 
> 
> > JStone said:
> ...



And that sir, is a good thing...lets parrrtttaaaayy


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...





> Not too long ago, Israel evacuated Gaza and gave the Palestinians their wish, made it Jew free.



Of course that is not true.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5BDwEW6uw]Laila El-Haddad, Journalist, Author, Gaza Mom-The Autograph-09-21-2011 - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..
> ...


That didn't look like collective punishment to me. THe video is a piece of propoganda and awful journalism. It could be that the specific lot in question was occupied illegally, as in without a permit, or it could be that a court found the owner of said lot to be guilty of certain violations and or crimes. The other lots remained untouched if you noticed. You are not a very good liar.


----------



## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> Here is another story about Christian Nuns who are being cut off from their crops and livelihood.
> 
> ...


After all the overwhelming evidence of Christian Organizations reporting on how Christians being persecuted and murdered,  and their ethnic cleansing by Muslims in Gaza and West Bank, you post a crap video making the Israelis look like the oppressors?  Remove your biased head from your ass.


----------



## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.
> ...


Actually it seems you have no clue and are totally ignorant. Hamas and Hezbollah receive their funding entirely from those that are enemies of Israel. They have used the same playbook to penetrate each society and then take over. This money and arms, etc comes with STRINGS ATTACHED, the strings being no peace with Israel ever, continuous state of war and acts of terror until the entire state of Israel is destroyed, and implementation of strict barbaric Islamc laws and society. and that is exactly what Hamas and Hezbollah are. They are a bunch of Islamic mafia thugs, who's only purpose is to continue the state of war in order to continue getting more money for it. There will never be peace with Israel as long as these organizations and their funding from those that want Israel destroyed continues.


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> That didn't look like collective punishment to me.



Then why no do some research?

Honestly, dude - it is not my fault you are not up to speed on this. 

I have suggested books for you, and I am happy to suggest more - but I think we both know you won't read them.


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> After all the overwhelming evidence of Christian Organizations reporting on how Christians being persecuted and murdered,  and their ethnic cleansing by Muslims in Gaza and West Bank, you post a crap video making the Israelis look like the oppressors?  Remove your biased head from your ass.



Perhaps try reading the story before commenting.


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## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Poor quality cell phone videos taken by biased do-gooders are not good journalism IMO. I prefer accredited reporters who interview both sides to get a reasonable story. These bulldozer dodgers jump to conclusions without knowing the facts. Only the Jew haters take these videos as gospel.


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## High_Gravity (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Hamas and Hezbollah also recieve funding from the US although it is indirect, you know they get their hands on some of that cash we give the Palestinians and the Lebanese government.


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Muslim animals and their supporters seem to have a problem identifying who is and isn't a civilian. Maybe the real reason is they simply don't care. They go around slaughtering hundreds of their own in open markets, mosques, movie theatres, and hospitals in Iraq, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philippines, and Afghanistan. They blow up Churches all over the Muslim world.  Maybe these victims aren't really civilians too?  

Suddenly this breed of Islamic terrorists in Gaza is different than the other terrorists that are murdering people all over the world. This one is killing non-civilian civilians, also known as JEWS.  Yup.


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly - 

A book written by a Jewish Israeli academic citing several hundred instances of collective punishment was recommended earlier. 

Here it is again for you:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Palestine-How-End-1948/dp/1583225382]Israel/Palestine: How to End the War of 1948: Tanya Reinhart: 9781583225387: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

You could also try doing a little research of your own, and get back to us when you are up to speed on the issue. You are under no obligation to understand this issue anymore than Roudy is, and if you'd prefer not to understand it, that is fine with me.


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


What's true to you is bullshit to most people.


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Yes, and they steal most of it, while they use the rest to oppress and commit more terror. We also fund the Pakistanis.


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## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy -
> ...


Reasoning and simple logic is foreign to a terrorist enabling Jew hater.


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > That is true. Israel has bulldozed about 30% of Gaza's agricultural land.
> ...



Only because you refuse to study the issue. 

I would say 30% is an exaggeration, but obviously the tactic of bulldozing land has been commonplace since Intifada 1, and has been reported by every major news service on earth. 

It can't have been easy for you to miss it!!

Here it is from the Guardian UK for you to ignore:

"Israeli forces have demolished the homes of hundreds of Palestinians, bulldozed swaths of agricultural land and destroyed infrastructure in their bloodiest assault on the Gaza Strip in years. "

Israeli assault turns Gaza into battlefield | Guardian Weekly | guardian.co.uk


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Reasoning and simple logic is foreign to a terrorist enabling Jew hater.



Please post honestly and coherently. 

And please READ THE STORY before commenting. 

The story is about ISRAEL cutting off Christians from their crops - nothing to do with Muslims.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



How many sides can there be for destroying somebody else's stuff?


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## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly -
> 
> A book written by a Jewish Israeli academic citing several hundred instances of collective punishment was recommended earlier.
> 
> ...


And just what is wrong with my observation? Is there no truth in it?
And as for your persistant urgings to read books, we all read books. This ain't no after school library klatch. It's the school of hard knocks and *COMMON SENSE.*


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...





> ...question was occupied illegally, as in without a permit,...



Why should Palestinians be required to get permits from foreigners to work their own land?


----------



## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly - 

If you read books, you'd know that collective punishment has been part of Israel policy since Intifada 1. 

There have been hundreds of well-documented examples covered by virtually any media source you care to watch or listen to. It's been in books, on TV in newspapers and magazines for years. 

Both you and Roudy seem to operate from the point of view that if you do not know something, it can not be true. This isn't a great starting point for you to understand what is an incredibly complex issue.


----------



## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


In your case there can only be one side, with no variations.You never listen to reason, believe an explanation or put any blame on Palis. Everything is already cut and dried before anything is presented.


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## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


What rules in certain areas are the Palis governed by and do they have to abide by said rules?


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> In your case there can only be one side, with no variations.You never listen to reason, believe an explanation or put any blame on Palis. Everything is already cut and dried before anything is presented.



Which is exactly what you and Roudy do in reverse, isn't it?! 

As I've said before on this thread, the only way to understand this conflict is to understand that both sides have, at times, committed appalling acts of violence which simply can not and should not be denied or apologised for. 

Both sides have also been the victims of terrible crimes, and have the right to seek sympathy and understanding from the west for those crimes. 

Attempting to blame one side for everything - as virtually everyone on this thread seems to want to do - only demonstrates that you have misunderstood the very nature of the conflict.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Of course that does not answer the question.


----------



## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly -
> 
> If you read books, you'd know that collective punishment has been part of Israel policy since Intifada 1.
> 
> ...


You are always lecturing people that you have no knowledge about.
Do you not remember what I said about the mouse at the beginning of this thread?


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Palestine is occupied by Israel.

That is both sides.


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## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


It sure as hell would. Go ahead and try for once. Break your cherry, bimbo.


----------



## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Hossfly - 

If you come up with a sensible response to the issue of collective punishment, I'll respond to it. 

Both the BBC and Guardian stories linked here are well worth a read...as is the Israel/Palestine book.


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## Hossfly (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly -
> 
> If you come up with a sensible response to the issue of collective punishment, I'll respond to it.
> 
> Both the BBC and Guardian stories linked here are well worth a read...as is the Israel/Palestine book.


I spent a career in the US Army so you can believe and know I don't believe in collective punishment. It is the sign of authoritarian leadership. If Israel uses CP, that is their decision. It does get attention.


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## Artevelde (May 23, 2012)

It's pretty stupid to deny facts. Israel has never denied that it uses certain forms of collective punishment, although there is debate within Israel over this issue.

That being said, not everything that is called "collective punishment" is and there can be circumstances in which collective punishment is unavoidable. But on the whole it's a fairly ineffective tactic.


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Arabs joined forces to destroy Israel entirely and lost. The aggressions against Israel were never to create a Palestinian state but rather to divide the proceeds between the attacking nations. Meaning those fake Arabs calling themselves Palestinians never owned the land. The Arabs lost those wars, and Israel managed to actually conquer some land as a result of its victories. That's how it went down, and as far as I'm concerned Israel can do as it pleases with the land. Or maybe it should have done what king Hussein did in 1971, massacre 25,000 Palestinains?   I'm wondering if the Arabs would have won how many millions of Jews would be slaughtered, their lands and assets stolen and seized, just like Arabs did when they ethnically cleansed Ancient Jewish populations in their own countries in the 1940's?


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## Lipush (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



If its fake,or half the story- many.


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## Lipush (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



That is one side, in the better case

You don't occupy something that belongs to you. you RECLAIM it.


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## Jos (May 23, 2012)

&#1497;&#1513; &#1512;&#1511; &#1488;&#1500;&#1493;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501; &#1488;&#1495;&#1491; &#1493;&#1502;&#1493;&#1495;&#1502;&#1491; &#1492;&#1493;&#1488; &#1513;&#1500;&#1497;&#1495;&#1493;


----------



## Lipush (May 23, 2012)

Jos said:


> &#1497;&#1513; &#1512;&#1511; &#1488;&#1500;&#1493;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501; &#1488;&#1495;&#1491; &#1493;&#1502;&#1493;&#1495;&#1502;&#1491; &#1492;&#1493;&#1488; &#1513;&#1500;&#1497;&#1495;&#1493;



&#1488;&#1504;&#1497; &#1513;&#1493;&#1504;&#1488;&#1514; &#1488;&#1497;&#1505;&#1500;&#1502;&#1493;-&#1508;&#1488;&#1513;&#1497;&#1505;&#1496;&#1497;&#1501; &#1511;&#1497;&#1510;&#1493;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;


----------



## Muhammed (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roadby suggested the other day that people post their qualifications or background on this topic, and I think it's a great idea.
> 
> It's not a contest, but I'm curious to know who might have lived in Qatar, who might have a degree in Arabic, or who might have spent every summer at Yeshiva camp!
> 
> ...


I'm a very popular guy in the Mid East.


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## Jos (May 23, 2012)

Welcome back, the last time you posted was 10-13-2011 was that before or after Marc39 got his pink slip?


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## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Muhammed said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roadby suggested the other day that people post their qualifications or background on this topic, and I think it's a great idea.
> ...


Yahooooooo!


----------



## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


For now, the entity that runs that area is Israel.  And you have to get permits and be legal to do anything, idiot. That is no different than a police officer showing up with foreclosure papers or seizure of a person's assets in case of criminal activity.   Or maybe the guy was just squatting on that land and it belonged to another Palestinian?  Did that thought occur to you, moron?  The person on that lot was obviously in a lot of trouble, that's why the Israelis didn't touch the other lots or land owners.


----------



## Roudy (May 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> Here is another story about Christian Nuns who are being cut off from their crops and livelihood.
> 
> ...


Maybe if the Palestinian animals stopped sending child suicide bombers, there wouldn't be a need for a wall?  The way I see the wall has done an amazing job of preventing these animals from sending suicide bombers. Kudos to the Israelis. Meanwhile, thousands of Christians are being persecuted, murdered, and tortured by Palestinian Muslims. There is mass migration of Christians out of the territories because the Islamists in power aka Hamas have doubled their efforts to ethnically cleanse Gaza and West Bank. You won't post those articles because you are a deceptive propagandist. Not that you're fooling anyone, mind you.


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## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy -
> ...



The Canadian police officers never give me any problems/


----------



## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy -
> ...




Do you accept that the wall is, in itself, collective punishment?

Do you accept that the bulldozing of crops and homes of innocent people constitutes colletive punishment?


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## Saigon (May 23, 2012)

Roudy said:


> For now, the entity that runs that area is Israel.  And you have to get permits and be legal to do anything, idiot. That is no different than a police officer showing up with foreclosure papers or seizure of a person's assets in case of criminal activity.   Or maybe the guy was just squatting on that land and it belonged to another Palestinian?  Did that thought occur to you, moron?  The person on that lot was obviously in a lot of trouble, that's why the Israelis didn't touch the other lots or land owners.



And yet one of the links poster earlier details collective punishment in Gaza - how is that run by Israel?

Are you 100% sure that the entity which runs the West Bank is Israel and not the Palestinian Authority?


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


I don't accept the wall is collective punishment at all.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  Israel is an independent country and as such is protecting itself and it's citizens from those that intend to enter illegally or bring harm to it.  There are many countries that have erected such a barrier when necessary.  The fact that you keep pointing (whining) about Israel only speaks volumns about your intentions and your level of ignorance.

Separation barrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A separation barrier is a wall or fence constructed to limit the movement of people across a certain line or border, or to separate two populations. These structures vary in placement with regard to international borders and topography. The most famous example of a separation barrier is probably the Great Wall of China, a series of barriers separating the Empire of China from nomadic powers to the north; the most prominent recent example was the Berlin Wall that separated the enclave of West Berlin from the rest of East Germany during most of the Cold War era.





Contents
  [hide]  1 Current barriers 1.1 Afghanistan
 1.2 Botswana
 1.3 Brunei
 1.4 China
 1.5 Cyprus
 1.6 Egypt
 1.7 Greece
 1.8 India
 1.9 Iran
 1.10 Iraq
 1.11 Israel
 1.12 Korea
 1.13 Morocco
 1.14 Northern Ireland
 1.15 Pakistan
 1.16 Russia
 1.17 Saudi Arabia
 1.18 South Africa
 1.19 Spain
 1.20 Thailand
 1.21 United Arab Emirates
 1.22 United Nations
 1.23 United States
 1.24 Uzbekistan

2 Separation barriers in history
 3 See also
 4 External links
 5 References


[edit] Current barriers

Note: The table can be sorted alphabetically or chronologically using the icon.



Name

Country

Built

Length (km)

Type




Baghdad Wall

Adhamiya, Iraq

Under construction

5

Civil pacification



Belfast Peace Lines

United Kingdom (Northern Ireland)

1969&#8211;present

0.5 (average)

Civil pacification



Botswana/Zimbabwe

Botswana and Zimbabwe

2003

500

Anti-illegal immigration



Brunei/Limbang

Brunei and Limbang

2005

20

Anti-illegal immigration



Ceuta border fence

Spain

2001

8

Anti-illegal immigration



China/Hong Kong

China

1960s -early

32

Internal barrier



China/Macau

China

1870

0.34

Internal barrier



China/North Korea

China and North Korea

Under construction

1,416

Anti-illegal immigration



Egypt-Gaza barrier

Egypt

1979, subterranean barrier under construction

3.1

Anti-terrorism and anti-illegal immigration



Malaysia-Thailand border

Thailand and Malaysia

Proposed

650

Anti-terrorism



Melilla border fence

Spain

1998

11

Anti-illegal immigration



Indo-Bangladeshi barrier

India

Under construction

3,268

Anti-illegal immigration



Indo-Burma barrier

India

Under construction

1,624

Anti-drug smuggling and anti-terrorism



Indian Kashmir barrier

India

2004

550

Anti-terrorism (disputed territory)



Iran-Pakistan barrier

Iran and Pakistan

Under construction

700

Anti-drug smuggling



Israeli West Bank barrier

Israel - West Bank

Under construction

703

Conflict Zone (disputed territories)



Kazakh-Uzbekistan barrier

Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan

2006

45

Anti-drug smuggling



Korean Wall

North Korea and South Korea

1953

248

Conflict zone



Kruger National Park

South Africa and Mozambique

1975

120

Anti-illegal immigration



Kuwait-Iraq barrier

Kuwait and Iraq

1991

193

Conflict zone



Pakistan-Afghanistan barrier

Pakistan

Proposed

2,400

Anti-terrorism



Russia/Chechnya

Chechnya (Russia)

Proposed

700

Anti-terrorism (disputed territory)



Saudi-Yemen barrier

Saudi Arabia and Yemen

2004

75

Anti-illegal immigration



Sharm el-Sheikh

Egypt

2005

20

Anti-terrorism



Turkmen-Uzbekistan barrier

Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan

2001

1,700

Anti-illegal immigration



United Arab Emirates-Oman barrier

United Arab Emirates and Oman

Under construction

410

Anti-illegal immigration



United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus

Cyprus and Northern Cyprus

1974

300

Conflict zone



United States&#8211;Mexico barrier

United States

Under construction

3,360

Anti-illegal immigration and drug smuggling



Uzbek-Afghanistan barrier

Uzbekistan and Afghanistan

2001

209

Anti-illegal immigration



Uzbek-Kyrgyzstan barrier

Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan

1999

870

Conflict zone



Western Sahara, Berm of

Morocco

1987

2,700

Conflict zone (disputed territory)



[1]


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Rudy 

In how many of those cases have the walls NOT followed borders recognised by international law?


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > For now, the entity that runs that area is Israel.  And you have to get permits and be legal to do anything, idiot. That is no different than a police officer showing up with foreclosure papers or seizure of a person's assets in case of criminal activity.   Or maybe the guy was just squatting on that land and it belonged to another Palestinian?  Did that thought occur to you, moron?  The person on that lot was obviously in a lot of trouble, that's why the Israelis didn't touch the other lots or land owners.
> ...


Why don't you ask Tiny-Brain.  He claims that the govt in West Bank is illegitimate because Hamas won the election, and insists that Hamas should be able to turn the West Bank into a second Gaza-like cesspool of Islamic terrorism, barbarism and hate.


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Rudy
> 
> In how many of those cases have the walls NOT followed borders recognised by international law?


Not recognized?  Israel is recognized as a country by the international community, and therefore as such, it  can do as it pleases to protect itself, and not have to go to any authority to "get permission" to do anything. And besides, who cares what "other" countries think, really?   After all we have many "countries" including the Mexicans that think the wall between the US and Mexico is "collective punishment" and "dangerous" and "oppressive" blah blah blah.  There are even people right here in the US (bleeding heart liberals) that want the wall removed.  You are even stupider and less educated than I thought.


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

jos said:


> &#1497;&#1513; &#1512;&#1511; &#1488;&#1500;&#1493;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501; &#1488;&#1495;&#1491; &#1493;&#1502;&#1493;&#1495;&#1502;&#1491; &#1492;&#1493;&#1488; &#1513;&#1500;&#1497;&#1495;&#1493;



*&#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1608;&#1583; &#1610;&#1603; &#1587;&#1711;&#1548; &#1583;&#1585;&#1587;&#1578; &#1605;&#1579;&#1604; &#1588;&#1605;*&#1575;


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Jos said:


> &#1497;&#1513; &#1512;&#1511; &#1488;&#1500;&#1493;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501; &#1488;&#1495;&#1491; &#1493;&#1502;&#1493;&#1495;&#1502;&#1491; &#1492;&#1493;&#1488; &#1513;&#1500;&#1497;&#1495;&#1493;



*&#1582;&#1608;&#1583;&#1605; &#1606;&#1588;&#1575;&#1588;&#1740;&#1583;&#1605; &#1576;&#1585; &#1605;&#1586;&#1575;&#1585; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583;* 

*&#1588;&#1605;&#1575; &#1610;&#1603; &#1605;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1587;&#1711;&#1548; &#1583;&#1585;&#1587;&#1578; &#1605;&#1579;&#1604; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; *


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Actually no, the wall is not collective punishment and it has proven a very effective and thus justified measure.

The buldozing of crops and houses can indeed be collective punishment and seems to me to be ineffective and not justified, except where it is for security reasons or because the structures are illegal.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > For now, the entity that runs that area is Israel.  And you have to get permits and be legal to do anything, idiot. That is no different than a police officer showing up with foreclosure papers or seizure of a person's assets in case of criminal activity.   Or maybe the guy was just squatting on that land and it belonged to another Palestinian?  Did that thought occur to you, moron?  The person on that lot was obviously in a lot of trouble, that's why the Israelis didn't touch the other lots or land owners.
> ...



The entity which runs most of the West Bank is indeed the PA. But this is not a sovereign state and Israël retains final security responsibility.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Rudy
> 
> In how many of those cases have the walls NOT followed borders recognised by international law?



It's true the Israeli wall does not follow the 1948 cease-fire line. The actual final legal border is something which would have to be determined in a final peace settlement and is of course intimately linked with a whole series of other issues on which a settlement must be found (Jerusalem, Israeli setllements on the West Bank, water rights, security arrangements, etc.). 
In the current state of things the West Bank is a piece of territory which under international law belongs to no state and therefore doesn't have internationally recognized borders. It is however under effective occupation of an internationally recognized state, i.e. Israel.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Rudy
> ...



Palestine has international borders.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Newsflash: there is no state of Palestine.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



Then why does it have international borders?


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It doesn't. Only states have internationally recognized borders.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



If Israel is a state and Palestine is not, why does Israel have to negotiate with Palestine to get borders?


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Israel has certain internationally recognized borders. It also controls certain territories which form no part of Israel as a state but also form no part of another state. if a state is to be established in these territories then its borders, including its borders with Israel have to be established.

See, it's fun to be logical isn't it?


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...





> Israel has certain internationally recognized borders.



Can you document Israel's acquisition of international borders? Where are they?


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You may have heard of countries called Egypt, Jordan, etc?


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Rudy
> ...



Yes, absolutely, and that is a good overview.

I have no problem with the wall as a concept, were it built on Israeli land or along an internationally recognised border, but as a means of annexibg land it is crude and clearly illegal.

Why some people here want to deny that, I can't imagine.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



Of course that avoids the questions.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Rudy
> ...



Let's go back a step, so maybe you can understand this.

Do you understand what a border is?

Do you know what I mean by 'international recognition' of borders?

If so, do you believe it would be legal for the US to build a wall between, say, Mexicoty City and Oaxaca as a way of protecting US territory?


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Good point.

There is a lot of confusion about Israel and borders.

I believe that confusion is deliberate.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



I take issue with the qualification "illegal". As the occupying power Israel has a de facto right (and to certain extent even an obligation) to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure security. The erection of the wall falls well within that right, as do check-points and the like.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



On your part it certainly is.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Seriously, Israel is always dancing around the fact that it has no borders. Defined borders is a key component of a legitimate state but Israel does not have borders.

So, why does Israel have to negotiate with Palestine to get borders?


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Just keep lying if you feel more comfortable that way.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...





> Can you document Israel's acquisition of international borders? Where are they?



Still dancing?


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I answered you. I can't help it that you are too much of a dishonest racist to read it.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



I didn't see anything in your posts that would qualify as an answer. Could you point out which one you mean?


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



number 748 racist liar. Or do you deny that Israel has internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan?


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



It doesn't.

The border between Egypt and Israel is called a *permanent* border that follows the *international* border between Palestine and Egypt.

The borders with Jordan have not been finalized because they have to be negotiated with Palestine.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Thank you for again demonstrating my point that you are a racist liar.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



What did I say that was incorrect?


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





> the parties accept the *international boundary* between Egypt and the former Palestine Mandate as the *permanent border* between them,
> 
> Read more: Egyptian - Israeli Peace Treaty (1979): Information from Answers.com



What???


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Been smoking Hashish again?


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...


Gee, it took you this long to figure it out?  They are all liars, it's their occupation. Some of them, like this Tinmore character or Jos could actually be on the payroll of a mosque or Islamic organization, to spread this garbage propoganda.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> I take issue with the qualification "illegal". As the occupying power Israel has a de facto right (and to certain extent even an obligation) to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure security. The erection of the wall falls well within that right, as do check-points and the like.



Artevelde - 

No nation has the right to build anything outside its own internationally recognised borders, and to do so is, in effect, an annexation. 

While any final peace process would inevitably see settlements like Gilo remain within Israel anyway, the construction of the wall outside the Green Line is without question an illegal act.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Gee, it took you this long to figure it out?  They are all liars, it's their occupation. Some of them, like this Tinmore character or Jos could actually be on the payroll of a mosque or Islamic organization, to spread this garbage propoganda.



Were you not a racist extremist yourself, this point might have some value! 

It always entertains the hells out of when people on Stormfront post this kind of statement, as if they were moderates, and the rest of the world that does not occupy itself with racial hatred were some kinf of perverted extremists!


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Ok, so this is where you prove conclusively that you are a shill for Islamo-Facism. Have you noticed not one of your statements so far have been true so far?  Let's put your false claims about your "background" in that category as well. 

Perhaps it is time for you to visit stormfront, the site you regularly visit, for some more anti Semitic theories?


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > I take issue with the qualification "illegal". As the occupying power Israel has a de facto right (and to certain extent even an obligation) to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure security. The erection of the wall falls well within that right, as do check-points and the like.
> ...





> No nation has the right to build anything outside its own internationally recognised borders...



What about Israel? It has no borders.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy - 

Still waiting for your response to this - 

Do you understand what a border is?

Do you know what I mean by 'international recognition' of borders?

If so, do you believe it would be legal for the US to build a wall between, say, Mexico City City and Oaxaca as a way of protecting US territory?


I do hope you are not one of those posters who just dodges any facts that appear, so that he can keep posting the same old myths, eve when he knows them to be false?


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Ok, so this is where you prove conclusively that you are a shill for Islamo-Facism. Have you noticed not one of your statements so far have been true so far?  Let's put your false claims about your "background" in that category as well.



Um....what? 

Dude, that makes absolutely 0 sense!

Just address the facts as posted....the insane rants aren't of great interest to me.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> What about Israel? It has no borders.



Israel has internationally recognised borders with Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza and Egypt. 

The Golan border and those demarcating the West Bank are not entirely clear, but I take the Green Line as being the basis for any future settlement.


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Gee, it took you this long to figure it out?  They are all liars, it's their occupation. Some of them, like this Tinmore character or Jos could actually be on the payroll of a mosque or Islamic organization, to spread this garbage propoganda.
> ...


Gee, did anybody understand what this moron said. Maybe his boyfriend Abdul took over for a few minutes, who knows.  Keep in mind this is the same ignorant retard that corrects the smallest of typos.  

How does somebody who regularly visits storm front accuse others of being racist?  Answer: Jew haters have no shame.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > I take issue with the qualification "illegal". As the occupying power Israel has a de facto right (and to certain extent even an obligation) to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure security. The erection of the wall falls well within that right, as do check-points and the like.
> ...



If you follow this logic it would be illegal for Israel to contruct anything in the West Bank including roads, public utilities, schools, hospitals, etc. Basically they would have had to let the West Bank undeveloped and without infrastructure for the past 45 years. Sorry, but this doesn't fly.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> Still waiting for your response to this -
> 
> ...



I understand your point, but the analogy is not quite correct. To my knowledge Mexico is an internationally recognizd state with a functioning government. It is sovereign. this is not the case with the Palestinian territories.


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Is Turnspeak in Arabic translated as 'Truth?'


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> Still waiting for your response to this -
> 
> ...


First you claim that Israel's wall is the only border wall out there, and after I smash your claim to pieces, you visit your handlers at the mosque crying, and they tell you to compare the wall to two internal cities. So what you're saying, dirtbag, is Israel has no right to exist, today the wall tomorrow the whole of Israel proper, eh?  You must be another of these masturbators to the destruction of Israel.  Read my lips Saigoon, it ain't neva gonna happen.  You can masturbate all you want until you turn Japanese.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so this is where you prove conclusively that you are a shill for Islamo-Facism. Have you noticed not one of your statements so far have been true so far?  Let's put your false claims about your "background" in that category as well.
> ...



Insane rants are not exactly exceptional on USMB. You'll have to learn to live with it.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy -
> ...



I stand in awe of your rational debating skills.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> If you follow this logic it would be illegal for Israel to contruct anything in the West Bank including roads, public utilities, schools, hospitals, etc. Basically they would have had to let the West Bank undeveloped and without infrastructure for the past 45 years. Sorry, but this doesn't fly.



It is also entirely true, from a legal perspective. 

No nation, under any circumstances, has the right to construct anything at all on land for which it does not enjoy legal recognition. 

Israel should not have built a single building on the West Bank unless they were prepared to either abandon it in the event of a final settlement, or unless they were doing so with the agreement of the Palestinian Authority. 

(Given they have done, I think any final settlement should allow Israel to annex 20% of the West Bank and trade land south of Jericho, or perhaps arond Shin Beit in return for it)


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > What about Israel? It has no borders.
> ...



All those borders you mentioned are "green lines." They are specifically not to be borders.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Ok, I enjoy them immensely!!

I just don't accept them as a replacement rational positions.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > If you follow this logic it would be illegal for Israel to contruct anything in the West Bank including roads, public utilities, schools, hospitals, etc. Basically they would have had to let the West Bank undeveloped and without infrastructure for the past 45 years. Sorry, but this doesn't fly.
> ...



So they should have left the West Bank without sewers, drainage, roads, hospitals, etc. That's pretty absurd.

I also note that according to you all the scientific bases on the South Pole are completely illegal and should be immediately destroyed.


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Ha ha ha!  Have you noticed, how he keeps mentioning stormfront?  It's like his second home or something. Stormfront this and stormfront that. Is storefront occupied too?  Why would somebody be a regular flyer on such a neo nazi white supremacist Jew hating site, if not one himself?  The guy is either an Islamist or one of these white power type knuckleheads.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Hey, if somebody is insane or dim-witted it's their problem, not yours.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Agreed - but they have become default positions. All Israelis and Palestinians understand the Green Line borders, and both sides accept them as a basis for negotiation.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



This is incorrect. And it is wrong that all Palestinians accept these lines as a basis. Many Palestinians still aim for the destruction of Israel.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Ha ha ha!  Have you noticed, how he keeps mentioning stormfront?  It's like his second home or something. Stormfront this and stormfront that. Is storefront occupied too?  Why would somebody be a regular flyer on such a neo nazi white supremacist Jew hating site, if not one himself?  The guy is either an Islamist or one of these white power type knuckleheads.



Your posting is very, very reminiscent of the classic Stormfront style - that is why I keep mentioning it. 

All the posters there kept calling me a Jew and you keep calling me a Muslim, just because I don't buy into your particular brand of hate speech and extremism - it's hilarious!

I have posted on Stormfront a lot as an anti-fascist, so am very used to the approach they take. The only reason I don't post there now was I was banned. There are still a few of my posts there, so you can go there and search for my posts under the user name 'Ernst Gauss' and decide for yourself what slant they take.


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## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> This is incorrect. And it is wrong that all Palestinians accept these lines as a basis. Many Palestinians still aim for the destruction of Israel.



Some, yes. that's true. 

But I think for most of us the destruction of Israel is not on the negotiating table, so I tend to stick to what is available for discussion. 

For Palestinians who accept that Israel is there for good - the Green Line is the starting point.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



The 1949 armistice lines have become Israel's de-facto borders. Most people have heard a million times that they are Israel's borders so they believe that they are. But they are not legitimate borders. They have no legal standing.


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## Artevelde (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yes, by that reasoning there are virtually no legal borders anywhere in the world. Doesn't change the fact that you're a racist liar.


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Yup the confusion is deliberate. On the part of IslamoNazis that is. The wall stops the Palestinian animals from blowing up Israelis, the Palestinians have an Islamic right to blow up Jews, and the Jews cannot do anything about it. 

The Jews that are in Israel are "fake Jews" and have no relation to their ancestors, the Muslim Arabs who don't speak Hebrew or follow the Torah, and look exactly like the other Arabs out there are the real "Hebrews". 

The holocaust was all fake and an excuse to make money and steal Arab land. The gas chambers did not exist.  It's all a lie. If any Jews died it was because not because the Nazis killed them but rather from diseases. 

Israel did 9-11, to make the US go to war with Muslims. Otherwise Muslims as we can see never do these kinds of things. No never. 

Israel is a racist apartheid state and the Arabs / Muslims are the most tolerant peaceful people on the face of this earth. 

The terror, violence, persecution, oppression that Muslims are committing today is not Koran or Islam based. 

The Jews are like Nazis, the Muslims, who sided with the Nazis and adore Hitler for killing all those Jews, and to this day follow Nazi ideology calling for the total destruction of Israel, and mass slaughter of Jews, are not Nazis. No, never.  

Let's see, have we covered it all?  or should we add a few more?


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## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...


Try penetrating Israel's borders, when you get your head blown off you will realize that it does have borders.


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## P F Tinmore (May 24, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



How do you figure that?

It is the armistice lines that are not borders.



> 2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...
> 
> The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949



How does that apply to other countries?


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> The Jews that are in Israel are "fake Jews" and have no relation to their ancestors, the Muslim Arabs who don't speak Hebrew or follow the Torah, and look exactly like the other Arabs out there are the real "Hebrews".
> 
> The holocaust was all fake and an excuse to make money and steal Arab land. The gas chambers did not exist.  It's all a lie. If any Jews died it was because not because the Nazis killed them but rather from diseases.
> 
> ...



Much of what you have posted here are racist lies, without question - but you missed your own racist lies. The ones you tell here every day. 

Remember all of that old crap about there not being anything as Palestinians? That Israel has never used collecive punishment? That Arabs are all evil terrorists?

How can you rant about lies told by one side, and perpetuate the lies told by the other side?

Do you honestly think this level of debate convinces anyone at all?

Why not set the same standard of truth for all sides?


----------



## Hossfly (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The Jews that are in Israel are "fake Jews" and have no relation to their ancestors, the Muslim Arabs who don't speak Hebrew or follow the Torah, and look exactly like the other Arabs out there are the real "Hebrews".
> ...


Which 'side' do you champion? Truthfully.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Hossfly - 

I champion the rights of all peoples, everywhere, equally. 

I absolutely and without reservation defend Israel's right to exist and to be left in peace.

I also defend the rights of Palestinians to live on land they have lived on for 3,000 years. 

I don't see any contradiction in those positions.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ha ha ha!  Have you noticed, how he keeps mentioning stormfront?  It's like his second home or something. Stormfront this and stormfront that. Is storefront occupied too?  Why would somebody be a regular flyer on such a neo nazi white supremacist Jew hating site, if not one himself?  The guy is either an Islamist or one of these white power type knuckleheads.
> ...


Your deception isn't working.  You shouldn't be surprised why people think you're an Islamist.  You repeat anti semetic lies and propoganda only Muslims and white supremacists regularly do, you visit white supremacist sites like stormfrint, and you are extremely ignorant.  If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, then it is one.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Your deception isn't working.  You shouldn't be surprised why people think you're an Islamist.  You repeat anti semetic lies and propoganda only Muslims and white supremacists regularly do, you visit white supremacist sites like stormfrint, and you are extremely ignorant.  If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, then it is one.



As I said - when people on Stormfront disappear over the horizon of extremism into out-and-out race hatred - this is exactly the defense they come up. They are moderates - EVERYONE else is an extremist. 

I also laughed when they call me a Jew, and I laugh when you call me a Muslim - it really is funny. 

Really, Roudy, when you understand so little of the conflict you can't even tell what side people are on, it's time to give up.

When I post this statement: 



> I absolutely and without reservation defend Israel's right to exist and to be left in peace.



and you respond as you do here above, it's time to give up forever!!


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The Jews that are in Israel are "fake Jews" and have no relation to their ancestors, the Muslim Arabs who don't speak Hebrew or follow the Torah, and look exactly like the other Arabs out there are the real "Hebrews".
> ...


Because you hold Israel by different standards. These statements I just posted are what anti semetic garbages on your side, ie Tinmore, sunni man, jos claim. I remember saying that the only Palestinian were Jews.  The Arabs started calling themselves Palestinians as of 1960's, and West Bank was Judea and Samaria of ancient Israel, so yes, the whole concept of an Arab Palestinian is a fraud, and so is the concept of a Palestinian country that the Jews "stole".  You claim to be on the rights of all people's everywhere, but so far all you've done is give lies for the Palestinians. I never saw you object to Jos or Sunni man, your buddies who are Hoocaust deniers. Again your deception isnt working.


----------



## Hossfly (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> If you are really interested, talk to some minorities who have left or fled Muslim countries to live in the US or other parts of the West. Who better to ask than someone who lived among Muslims, in many cases for generations.  You will find out how ignorant you really are.


Saigoon had a chance to read and respond to this post but he doesn't seem to be interested.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy - 

This isn't about anyone else - it's about you and what you post. I don't have a side. I disagree with Sunni and Tinmore often, and tell them so. I've done it today a couple of times. 

I agree there are posters here who tell lies about Israel and who set different standards for Palestinian violence than they do for Israeli violence. That is ridiculous. 

What I am asking is why you do EXACTLY the same thing.

You post lies, racist abuse and laughable conspiracy theories about Palestinians every day - as you do in your post here - it's all utter nonsense, as you probably realuse yourself. 

Why not set the same standard for all sides of the debate?

Why not stick to historical facts, and demand both sides do the same?


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > If you are really interested, talk to some minorities who have left or fled Muslim countries to live in the US or other parts of the West. Who better to ask than someone who lived among Muslims, in many cases for generations.  You will find out how ignorant you really are.
> ...



Seriously? That is your best shot?

I have lived with and worked with and talked with people in Amman, Tel Aviv, Magdal Shams, Cairo and Qiryat Shemonah for years. I've talked to Orthodox Jews, to Druze, to Palestinians, to Lebanese, to Syrians, to Reformist Jews and socialist Jews. 

Of course I talk to exiles when I meet them here, and I am quite well connected with the small Jewish community here, but really.....

When are you guys ever going to actually make some effort to understand this conflict and get your ass over to the Middle East?

Jesus wept....the standard of debate here really can't go any lower, can it?


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Your deception isn't working.  You shouldn't be surprised why people think you're an Islamist.  You repeat anti semetic lies and propoganda only Muslims and white supremacists regularly do, you visit white supremacist sites like stormfrint, and you are extremely ignorant.  If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, then it is one.
> ...


They called you a Jew probably because you don't agree 100% with everything they say, only 96%. You have us totally fooled now.  Yeah, you're a true champion of Israel's right to exist. 

You really should come out of the closet.


----------



## High_Gravity (May 24, 2012)

The idiots on stormfront accuse anyone who even remotely disagrees with them a Jew or a Black person, from what I heard. I don't see why anyone would want to post there unless you agree with their rhetoric.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> The idiots on stormfront accuse anyone who even remotely disagrees with them a Jew or a Black person, from what I heard. I don't see why anyone would want to post there unless you agree with their rhetoric.



Oh, it's hilarious...although most sane people get banned there fairly quickly!

That said, it is like 1,000 Rouddys in one place at one time...it does tire after a while.


----------



## Hossfly (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > The idiots on stormfront accuse anyone who even remotely disagrees with them a Jew or a Black person, from what I heard. I don't see why anyone would want to post there unless you agree with their rhetoric.
> ...


As tiring as Saigoon's posts?( That are about as exciting as watching grass grow.)


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> The idiots on stormfront accuse anyone who even remotely disagrees with them a Jew or a Black person, from what I heard. I don't see why anyone would want to post there unless you agree with their rhetoric.


Exactly.  Why else would someone be a frequent flyer to a site that half the posters there have pictures of Hitler and a white power fist in the background. Oh don't get him wrong, he's there to fight against hatred of the Jooooos. You see how well he fights against Jew hatred on this board?  Ha ha ha. "do as I say not as I do".


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > The idiots on stormfront accuse anyone who even remotely disagrees with them a Jew or a Black person, from what I heard. I don't see why anyone would want to post there unless you agree with their rhetoric.
> ...


No it's more like they're all Sunni mans and Tinmores and Jos'. And you're the referee of the insane asylum. Still didn't tell us why you kept going there all that time?  You fighter for Jews you.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so this is where you prove conclusively that you are a shill for Islamo-Facism. Have you noticed not one of your statements so far have been true so far?  Let's put your false claims about your "background" in that category as well.
> ...


When you post "facts" I will address them. All you have posted are lies and false propoganda so far.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Oh so the deal is you worked with Muslims, and during your business meetings you guys would trash Israel and blame all the world's problems on the evil Jooos.  I think that's basically like a tradition in the Muskim world, isnt it?  Let's have some tea and trash the Jews before we do business.  Yup,  I'm sure the Muslims you associated (and still associate) with exhibited no hatred and racism towards Jews. Kinda like a needle in a haystack type of Muslim you work with, eh?  Heh heh heh.  Gawd you are so transparent .  

And you can stick that long list of people you "know" up your you know what. Knowing reform Jews, orthodox Jews blah blah blah in no way shape or form qualifies you to have a valid opinion on this matter.  Now if you really sat down and talked with some Jews, Christians, Bahaiis, Zoorastrians, etc who lived under Muslim rule and persecution then maybe. But I'm glad we got that cleared up. You are a Pali $ympathizer becau$e you work with Mu$lim$ and like their money. And you will say things that are music to their ears: Jews are the occupiers, the wall is collective punishment, Israel is a terrorist state....I got you covered, Saigooon. <wink wink>


----------



## Jos (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Oh so the deal is you worked with Muslims, and during your business meetings you guys would trash Israel and blame all the world's problems on the evil Jooos.  I think that's basically like a tradition in the Muskim world, isnt it?  Let's have some tea and trash the Jews before we do business.  Yup,  I'm sure the Muslims you associated (and still associate) with exhibited no hatred and racism towards Jews. Kinda like a needle in a haystack type of Muslim you work with, eh?  Heh heh heh.  Gawd you are so transparent .
> 
> And you can stick that long list of people you "know" up your you know what. Knowing reform Jews, orthodox Jews blah blah blah in no way shape or form qualifies you to have a valid opinion on this matter.  Now if you really sat down and talked with some Jews, Christians, Bahaiis, Zoorastrians, etc who lived under Muslim rule and persecution then maybe. But I'm glad we got that cleared up. You are a Pali $ympathizer becau$e you work with Mu$lim$ and like their money. And you will say things that are music to their ears: Jews are the occupiers, the wall is collective punishment, Israel is a terrorist state....I got you covered, Saigooon. <wink wink>


Roudy, are there some Meds you should have taken, but didn't or some you took but shouldn't have?


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Oh so the deal is you worked with Muslims, and during your business meetings you guys would trash Israel and blame all the world's problems on the evil Jooos.  I think that's basically like a tradition in the Muskim world, isnt it?  Let's have some tea and trash the Jews before we do business.  Yup,  I'm sure the Muslims you associated (and still associate) with exhibited no hatred and racism towards Jews. Kinda like a needle in a haystack type of Muslim you work with, eh?  Heh heh heh.  Gawd you are so transparent .
> ...


Maybe if I take the meds you take I can read Farsi signs backwards and then claim that I learned to be so fluent in Farsi by just "visiting" Iran for a short time?  What do you Hezbollahis smoke, is it "teryak"?

*&#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1608;&#1583; &#1670;&#1607;&#1585;&#1607; &#1610;&#1603; &#1582;&#1608;&#1603;*


----------



## ima (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



WOW! You know how to google.


----------



## Lipush (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



What does that mean?


----------



## High_Gravity (May 24, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



Muhammad was a pig's face.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


...or was the face of a pig, the most likely meaning would be Mohammad had the qualities of a pig.  Remember words don't translate directly when you go from one language to another, because of the order and multiple meanings.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

ima said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


google doesn't do that.  Wow.


----------



## ima (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Google to find a site to translate for you? Man, you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

ima said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


I don't need a "site"  to translate for me, retard.  And google isn't the only search engine for you to find such a site.  Duh.  Were you born this stupid or did you actually have to work on it?


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly -
> 
> I champion the rights of all peoples, everywhere, equally.
> 
> ...



Read up.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy - 

When you have finished ranting, I am stil waiing for you to address this point:



Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



No, absolutely not. 

You post from a position of hating Muslims, and assume the opposite is to hate Jews. 

It isn't - the opposite of your position is wanting peace for all sides.

Hating Muslims = hating Jews. The shame retoric, the same dodging facts, the same lies.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigooon: I also defend the rights of Palestinians to live on land they have lived on for 3,000 years.

You're so fulla crap one doesn't even know where to start.  Do you actually think your stupid, ignorant "requests" deserve a legitimate answer?  Tell us, do you make it up at as you go along or is somebody feeding you this shit?  Either way keep it up, you make for good entertainment!


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


Whereas you post from a position of hating Jews and sucking up to Islamists, not to mention you propogate stereotypical anti Semetic lies about Jews and Israel.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Whereas you post from a position of hating Jews and sucking up to Islamists, not to mention you propogate stereotypical anti Semetic lies about Jews and Israel.



Um....no, not exactly. 

As I've said before, if your knowledge of this conflict is so poor that you can not even understand what the sides are or who is on what side, perhaps it is time to go back to square one. 

Telling Israeli residents that they hate Jews is like telling Ozzy Osbourne he hates metal.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

> When you post "facts" I will address them.



Great - let's do that. 

You posted this statement:


> Not recognized? Israel is recognized as a country by the international community, and therefore as such, it can do as it pleases to protect itself, and not have to go to any authority to "get permission" to do anything. And besides, who cares what "other" countries think, really? After all we have many "countries" including the Mexicans that think the wall between the US and Mexico is "collective punishment" and "dangerous" and "oppressive" blah blah blah. There are even people right here in the US (bleeding heart liberals) that want the wall removed. You are even stupider and less educated than I thought.



By what right or law does one country construct a wall outside of its own borders?

Of the others walls you mentioned, how many of those cases have the walls NOT followed borders recognised by international law?


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Whereas you post from a position of hating Jews and sucking up to Islamists, not to mention you propogate stereotypical anti Semetic lies about Jews and Israel.
> ...


Okay, entertain me again.  Care to prove how "Palestinians have lived there for over 3000 years"?  That would be disgusting anti Semetic lie #1, you douchebag shit eater.  Do you really think you're fooling anybody with your "I believe in Israel's right to exist" bullshit?  You are no different if not worse than all the other racist anti semetic dicksuckers, except you think your deceptive BS works.  Mr. StromFront ViP.  Eat shit ya Jew hating piece of garbage.  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> > When you post "facts" I will address them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By it own laws and necessity to survive Pali terorist animals sending suicide bombers into Israel. Eat shit.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Whereas you post from a position of hating Jews and sucking up to Islamists, not to mention you propogate stereotypical anti Semetic lies about Jews and Israel.
> ...


Yeah lets start again, because so far all you've proven is YOUR lack of knowledge of this conflict and it's history.  Repeating the Arab Islamic talking points isn't "Knowledge" you idiot.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy - 

I'd be happy to. Here are a few exceprts from a history of Jericho, and remember we know from genetic testing that the people in Jericho today are very closely related to the people who lived in Jericho back at least 3,000 years, and probably back to 9000 BCE. 

Jericho is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world, with evidence of settlement dating back to 9000 BCE. During the Younger Dryas period of cold and drought, permanent habitation of any one location was not possible. However, the spring at what would become Jericho was a popular camping ground for Natufian hunter-gatherer groups, who left a scattering of crescent microlith tools behind them.

Jericho, by then named "Ariha" in Arabic variation, fell under the Bilad al-Sham in district (jund) "al-Filastin". 

By 659 that district had come under the control of Mu'awiya, founder of the Umayyads as a dynasty. That year, an earthquake struck Jericho and destroyed nearly all of it. A decade later the pilgrim Arculf visited Jericho and found it a ruin, all its "miserable Canaanite" inhabitants now dispersed in shantytowns around the Dead Sea shore.

The tenth caliph of that dynasty, Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik, built a palatial complex known as Khirbet al-Mafjar about one mile north of Tell as-Sultan in 743, and two mosques, a courtyard, mosaics, and other items from it can still be seen in situ today, despite its having been partially destroyed in an earthquake in 747.

Umayyad rule ended in 750 and was followed by the Arab caliphates of the Abbasid and Fatimid dynasties. Irrigated agriculture was developed under Islamic rule, reaffirming Jericho's reputation as a fertile "City of the Palms". Al-Maqdisi, the Arab geographer, wrote in 985 that, "the water of Jericho is held to be the highest and best in all Islam. Bananas are plentiful, also dates and flowers of fragrant odor."Jericho is also referred to by him as one of the principal cities of Jund Filastin.

The city flourished until 1071 and the invasion of the Seljuk Turks, followed by the upheavals of the Crusades.

Jericho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And so on and so on...through until 2012. 

The population has risen and fallen, invaders have come and gone, but the city has existed since 9000BCE, and the genetic code of the people within it has remained more or less intact. 

Jews have also lived in Jericho for much of this time since at least 2,700 years back (as noted in the link), so their rights are also crucial here, but for most of that history, they made up only 5% - 10% of the population.


----------



## Saigon (May 24, 2012)

Roudy said:


> By it own laws and necessity to survive Pali terorist animals sending suicide bombers into Israel. Eat shit.



Why do its own laws apply in another country?

Can you give one single example of a country using its own laws to govern actions of non-citizens in nother country?


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> I'd be happy to. Here are a few exceprts from a history of Jericho, and remember we know from genetic testing that the people in Jericho today are very closely related to the people who lived in Jericho back at least 3,000 years, and probably back to 9000 BCE.
> 
> ...


Jericho is a Hebrew name. It's even documented in the Old Testament.  Get you head out of your ass.   There was no such thing as Palestine other than it meant the Roman name for Israel.  Even up to 1400 years ago,  you beloved Mohammad mentions Israel and it's people but never a Palestine.  Ever wonder why?  Was Mohammad a Zionist?  Palestinians were known to be Jews only up until the late 1960's.  Nowhere in your link does it tie Jericho to those Arabs that call themselves Palestinians.  They are recent invadors from neighboring Arab countries, and genetically no different.   The only people with real ties to the land are Jews, you dipshit.  There are hundreds of thousands of archeological sites and artifacts that proof conclusively the existence of an Israel and it's history.  The Arabs can't come up with ONE  Arab Muslim artifact or site that ties Arabs to that land.   You are an anti Semetic pig grasping at straws and false Islamic propoganda.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > By it own laws and necessity to survive Pali terorist animals sending suicide bombers into Israel. Eat shit.
> ...


Palestine isn't another country you fucking idiot.  It never was.  It was a region owned by the Brits and then the Turks before that for 600 years.  Maybe this is the kind of shit your buddies at StormFront agree with.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



North Korea and South Korea; China and India; India and Pakistan; ... The list is endless. All of these countries apparently don't exist according to you.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Why would one have to "champion" one side?


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Jesus wept....the standard of debate here really can't go any lower, can it?



Now you're really being naive!


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > The idiots on stormfront accuse anyone who even remotely disagrees with them a Jew or a Black person, from what I heard. I don't see why anyone would want to post there unless you agree with their rhetoric.
> ...



I have no experience there. Doesn't really sound very interesting.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> I'd be happy to. Here are a few exceprts from a history of Jericho, and remember we know from genetic testing that the people in Jericho today are very closely related to the people who lived in Jericho back at least 3,000 years, and probably back to 9000 BCE.
> 
> ...



Jumping from 9000 BC to the 7th century AD in one giant leap really isn't very serious. The history of the settlement and population of the Holy Land (somewhat of a neutral term) is really much more complex than you suggest. To somehow make a blanket claim that the current Palestinians are the original inhabitants is really very simplistic and therefore not true.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > By it own laws and necessity to survive Pali terorist animals sending suicide bombers into Israel. Eat shit.
> ...



The Palestinian territories are not a country.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde - 

True, but Palestine comes about as close to being a country as it is possible to be - it has a legitimate government, observer status at the UN, and even plays in the World Cup football! The Palestine Authority is a legal entity, and is the legitimate legal custodian (so to speak) of the West Bank until a full and final settlement can be achived. 

But legally, that isn't really the issue. The issue for Israel is that it has no legal rights beyond its own legally recognised borders. It has no more legal right to erect buildings, roads or walls in Ramallah than Finland would in Moscow.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Why would one have to "champion" one side?



I was wondering the same - and I think Hoss's question says a lot, doesn't it?

To him, to be interested in this topic you must be against someone. I think it is very difficult for both Hoss and Roudy to come to terms with the concept that some of us have friends on several different sides of this debate, and see it not as black and white, but as a colour spectrum of ideas and beliefs.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Jericho is a Hebrew name. It's even documented in the Old Testament.  Get you head out of your ass.   There was no such thing as Palestine other than it meant the Roman name for Israel.  Even up to 1400 years ago,  you beloved Mohammad mentions Israel and it's people but never a Palestine.  Ever wonder why?  Was Mohammad a Zionist?  Palestinians were known to be Jews only up until the late 1960's.  Nowhere in your link does it tie Jericho to those Arabs that call themselves Palestinians.  They are recent invadors from neighboring Arab countries, and genetically no different.   The only people with real ties to the land are Jews, you dipshit.  There are hundreds of thousands of archeological sites and artifacts that proof conclusively the existence of an Israel and it's history.  The Arabs can't come up with ONE  Arab Muslim artifact or site that ties Arabs to that land.   You are an anti Semetic pig grasping at straws and false Islamic propoganda.



Roudy - 

If you do actually address what I posted, I'll be sure to respond to it.

The history of the term 'Palestine' isn't disputed here - as I have explained several times, by your own definition it is older than the terms 'Germany' or 'Italy' and yet you do not question their legitimacy. Italy is a legitimate state because the people we now called Italians can trace their ancestry back on that land for thousands of years - just as Palestinians can. 

As stated earlier, genetic testing has proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that modern day Palestinians are directly linked to their ancestors from 3,000 years back. 

Until you understand and accept this, you will never get to Square One of this debate.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Palestine isn't another country you fucking idiot.  It never was.  It was a region owned by the Brits and then the Turks before that for 600 years.  Maybe this is the kind of shit your buddies at StormFront agree with.



So the British "owned" Palestine, did they? 

Are you sure?


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

> Palestinians were known to be Jews only up until the late 1960's



Is this the single most hilariously confused statement ever posted on this board?

It's certainly in my Top 5!!


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde -
> 
> True, but Palestine comes about as close to being a country as it is possible to be - it has a legitimate government, observer status at the UN, and even plays in the World Cup football! The Palestine Authority is a legal entity, and is the legitimate legal custodian (so to speak) of the West Bank until a full and final settlement can be achived.
> 
> But legally, that isn't really the issue. The issue for Israel is that it has no legal rights beyond its own legally recognised borders. It has no more legal right to erect buildings, roads or walls in Ramallah than Finland would in Moscow.



The Palestinian territories come nowhere near to being a country and the PA is not the government of a sovereign state.

States erect buldings and structures outside their territory all the time.

And an occupying power, which Israel is in the West Bank, has a lot of rights and responsibilities.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jericho is a Hebrew name. It's even documented in the Old Testament.  Get you head out of your ass.   There was no such thing as Palestine other than it meant the Roman name for Israel.  Even up to 1400 years ago,  you beloved Mohammad mentions Israel and it's people but never a Palestine.  Ever wonder why?  Was Mohammad a Zionist?  Palestinians were known to be Jews only up until the late 1960's.  Nowhere in your link does it tie Jericho to those Arabs that call themselves Palestinians.  They are recent invadors from neighboring Arab countries, and genetically no different.   The only people with real ties to the land are Jews, you dipshit.  There are hundreds of thousands of archeological sites and artifacts that proof conclusively the existence of an Israel and it's history.  The Arabs can't come up with ONE  Arab Muslim artifact or site that ties Arabs to that land.   You are an anti Semetic pig grasping at straws and false Islamic propoganda.
> ...



This really is fairly ridiculous. Your contention that the population of countries remains unchanged for thousands or years is so a-historical that it's farcical. And that goes for Italy just as well as for the Holy Land.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Palestine isn't another country you fucking idiot.  It never was.  It was a region owned by the Brits and then the Turks before that for 600 years.  Maybe this is the kind of shit your buddies at StormFront agree with.
> ...



The Palestine was a British Mandate territory, yes.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Indeed, and a mandate is an administrative not an ownership position. Palestine exists as a separate entity from the mandate and continues to exist without it.


----------



## Lipush (May 25, 2012)

There is no such thing as Palestine.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Lipush said:


> There is no such thing as Palestine.





> Article I
> 
> With a view to promoting the return to permanent peace in* Palestine* and in recognition of the importance in this regard of mutual assurances concerning the future military operations of the Parties, the following principles, which shall be fully observed by both Parties during the Armistice, are hereby affirmed:
> 
> The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949



Hmmm, it was still there in 1949.

I think someone has been pulling your leg.


----------



## Lipush (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > There is no such thing as Palestine.
> ...



I could say the same thing to you


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Lying really is a must with you hey. Of course Palestine didn't exist as a separate sovereign entity. And the British exercised full sovereign control over this mandate area, until it was transferred to the sovereign control of Israel and Jordan.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



When did the mandate transfer sovereignty to Israel?

Documents please.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I posted a legal document confirming my position.

Where are your documents?


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



When Israel as a sovereign and internationally recognized state established itself on part of the territory of the former British mandate.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



So, where are the documents to back up what you say?

When did the mandate transfer sovereignty to Israel?


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Only in your phantasy world does the Israeli sovereign state not exist. You are pathetic.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



Still no documents?

What you say must be just propaganda crap.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Where are the documents that prove that the US is a sovereign state?

You are really pathetic and despicable.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



The US has defined, undisputed, international borders.

Israel has no borders.


----------



## High_Gravity (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What documents do you want him to show you?


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Just keep lying. But I notice you can't come up with any documents for the US. I guess it doesn't exist according to you.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...





> The current border originated with the *Treaty of Paris *in 1783, which ended the war between Great Britain and the separating colonies which would form the United States. The 45th parallel was established as the border between Lower Canada (Quebec) and New York State (including what is now Vermont). The St. Lawrence River and the Great Lakes became the boundary between Upper Canada and the United States. The* Jay Treaty of 1794* created the International Boundary Commission, which was charged with surveying and mapping the boundary. Westward expansion of both British North America and the United States saw the boundary extended west along the 49th parallel from the Northwest ...
> 
> Canada



Documents!

Where are your documents to back up what you say?


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What a pathetic joke you are.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



You are the one who yaks and cannot back up what you say.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> States erect buldings and structures outside their territory all the time.



Really?

I can't think of a single example...


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Exactly, and well said - I don't know what Artevelde was thinking there!


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > States erect buldings and structures outside their territory all the time.
> ...



The South Pole is full of them. I could also point to US construction at Guantanamo Bay, Russian constructions on Spitzbergen, ... The list is pretty endless.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



So according to you there was an independent and sovereign entity called Palestine? You must be joking. Britain exercised sovereign control over the mandate.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



It's not a terribly impressive list, though, is it...!? 

Not one of those is a cast iron case of what you claim, as I'm sure you realise yourself.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde - 

Britain did not "own" Palestine - it exercised a mandate over it. 

It did not colonise Palestine, it did not annex it, it did not incorporate it into Great Britain. 

The mandates were never intended to be an act of colonisation - moreso of shepherding the states towards full statehood. 

This is two points you are arguing where you seem to be performing the intellectual equivalent of Twister in order to hold an argument together that you are definitely smart enough to know doesn't actually hold water.


----------



## Hossfly (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > States erect buldings and structures outside their territory all the time.
> ...


Example:

1. Al Aqsa mosque

2. Dome of the Rock


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...





You asked for examples of states erected infrastructures outside their own territory. I gave some examples. I'm not going to do dissertation research on it. Point is, clearly states do erect infrastructure outside their own territory on many occasions. That is the only thing I claim and I proved it.

You claim that no state save Israel creates infrastructure outside its territorial boundaries is disproven. Deal with it.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde -
> 
> Britain did not "own" Palestine - it exercised a mandate over it.
> 
> ...



Who exercised sovereign control and authority in the Holy Land between 1918 and 1948? Britain or some Palestinian state that nobody has heard of?


----------



## High_Gravity (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > States erect buldings and structures outside their territory all the time.
> ...



Well I can tell you the US has built numerous hospitals, schools, paved roads and other projects in Iraq and Afghanistan.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> You asked for examples of states erected infrastructures outside their own territory. I gave some examples. I'm not going to do dissertation research on it. Point is, clearly states do erect infrastructure outside their own territory on many occasions. That is the only thing I claim and I proved it.
> 
> You claim that no state save Israel creates infrastructure outside its territorial boundaries is disproven. Deal with it.



You have to be kidding...are you seriously comparing the legal status of the West Bank with that of the South Pole?! 

If you do come up with a serious example, I'll come back to it - but somehow the South Pole doesn't quite fit!


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



There is no dispute over the ownership of Antarctica. Guantanamo Bay is leased from Cuba by the US. The Spitsbergen Treaty designates sovereignty.

What about Israel?


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



I guess they should be torn down as "illegal" right away.


----------



## Hossfly (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde -
> 
> Britain did not "own" Palestine - it exercised a mandate over it.
> 
> ...


Artevelde said "exercised sovereign control", not "owned."


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > You asked for examples of states erected infrastructures outside their own territory. I gave some examples. I'm not going to do dissertation research on it. Point is, clearly states do erect infrastructure outside their own territory on many occasions. That is the only thing I claim and I proved it.
> ...



You are the one who compared a sovereign independent state like Mexico with an occupied and disputed territory like the West Bank.

And you should know that the South Pole is the subject of territorial disputes, as is the status of Spitsbergen and Guantanamo.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

High_Gravity said:


> Well I can tell the US has built numerous hospitals, schools, paved roads and other projects in Iraq and Afghanistan.



Yes, of course - with the consent of the local authorities and legal government. It's ultimately their decision. 

Which is also why Artevelde's eample of the South Pole is so silly - construction of buildings there is either on land designated to each of the 6 (?) states 'governing' Antarctica, and/or is constructed with international consent.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Lying about the facts as usual.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Artevelde said "exercised sovereign control", not "owned."



Hoss - 

Please read the thread before commenting. Roudy said "owned" - it is that word which I think is so funny, because it is so obviously ridiculous.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Well I can tell the US has built numerous hospitals, schools, paved roads and other projects in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> ...



The Israeli wall is constructed with the consent of the state "governing" the West Bank.


----------



## Lipush (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. The Arabs for years have tried to twist the facts, hide evidence of Jewish history on the land. But that is destined to fail.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said "exercised sovereign control", not "owned."
> ...



Less ridiculous than your agreement with Timore's assertion that there was a Palestinian state there.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



Actually, no, Tinmore is fairly much right there. 

Of course there is some arguing about the Spitsbergen Treaty, but is does designtate soveriengty (to Norway, with conditions) quite clearly. 

Shall we agree that no nation has ever legally constructed anything on land claimed by another state without international agreement. 

Everyone agree on that?


----------



## High_Gravity (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Well some of the Iraqis and Afghanis do indeed blow up these buildings.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> The Israeli wall is constructed with the consent of the state "governing" the West Bank.



Oh Good Lord.....so in other words any army which conquers any land by force is thus the legitimate government? 

So Armenia is the legitimate government of Aghdam?

Indonesia was the legitimate government on East Timor? 

South Sudan was the legitimate government of the Halvag oil fields?

Jesus wept....


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Obviously not. That's a ridiculous claim which flies in the face of numerous examples.


----------



## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus wept....the standard of debate here really can't go any lower, can it?
> ...


Jesus wept, Mohammad murdered.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > The Israeli wall is constructed with the consent of the state "governing" the West Bank.
> ...



I only borrowed your term which you used for the South Pole.

Who, according to you, exercises sovereign control over the West Bank? The Martians?


----------



## RoccoR (May 25, 2012)

Lipush, P F Tinmore, _et al,_

You know, not a week goes by that Israelis is not in the news, complaining that someone is going to wipe them off the map. 



Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

For more than half a century, Israeli Foreign Policy has not help change the attitudes in the Middle East in its favor; with (very) minor exceptions.  It should fire the entire crybaby staff in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and gag the leadership, and buy a Madison Avenue Public Relations firm to build a new image.

As far as Israeli Security goes, it has nothing to fear from any Middle East/Persian Gulf nation.  Israel is, in its own right - a nuclear power operating outside the NPT and protected by a US umbrella.  AIRPAC has bought and paid for Congress, and it routinely conducts espionage operations against America - so it knows the internal policies pertaining to its defense.  Israel has the US Mediterranean Fleet on one side, and the Persian Gulf Fleet on the other.  It has nearly an unlimited line of credit through the US, and AIRPAC as garnered it a sympathetic ear in nearly every corner in America.  It is well protected, even if it has been incapable of resolving the aggravation of the Occupied Territories in more than four decades.

If Israel is not going to make a good faith effort to resolve its problems in the neighborhood, then it needs to sit back, take a breath, and keep its mouth shut.

Right or Wrong --- It is protected...

Most Respectfully,
R

_Remember the USS Liberty!_


----------



## Lipush (May 25, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> Lipush, P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> You know, not a week goes by that Israelis is not in the news, complaining that someone is going to wipe them off the map.
> 
> ...



So what do you suggest?


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Lipush said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush, P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> ...



I guess he would like Israel to commit hari kiri, but quietly, without too much fuss.


----------



## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said "exercised sovereign control", not "owned."
> ...


It sure has hell was controlled by the Brits, and a Palestinian would be one of the Queen's Subjects, not a citizen of Palestine, the money had British markings all over it. That's just about as owned as you can get. The Arabs surely never owned it during the time of the British mandate nor did they run it. And at the time the British controlled this region, there was o such thing as an Arab Palestinian, the only people who called themselves Palestinians were the Jews. Fact of the matter is there was never a Palestinian country, ruler, culture, capital, distinct food or culture. The people calling themselves Palestinians today are ARABS from neighboring Egypt, Syria, and Jordan, just like Egyptian born and raised Arafat.  It if you insist on painting stripes on a donkey and calling it a Zebra go right ahead.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



I have no question about the Jewish history in the land.

However, the Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.


----------



## Hossfly (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said "exercised sovereign control", not "owned."
> ...


Where are you coming from, twit? I read everything back to where you and Artevelde began jousting and I didn't see any quotes by Roudy. Do you expect people to read your simple mind?


----------



## Hossfly (May 25, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> Lipush, P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> You know, not a week goes by that Israelis is not in the news, complaining that someone is going to wipe them off the map.
> 
> ...


Sour grapes go good with whine.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Lipush said:


> There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.



I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either. 

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



No, I expect them to read the thread.


----------



## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

History of Israel and "Palestine"


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Who, according to you, exercises sovereign control over the West Bank? The Martians?



The Palestinian Authority, though that sovereignty is to some extent limited by the lack of full statehood.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Who, according to you, exercises sovereign control over the West Bank? The Martians?
> ...



You realize that this is complete fiction. Israel exercises sovereign control over the West Bank. The PA is in no way a sovereign state and doesn't exercise the functions of a sovereign state.


----------



## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The Jews mixed with the Caananites that were the people there before they were.  And they maintained a presence throughout the years, evidenced by Jewish majority in Jerusalem in the 1900's.  The Arabs are who call themselves Palestinians as of 1964 are recent INVADORS from neighboring Arab states.


----------



## Lipush (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yet the Jews where in the land before the Arabs. And the Jews developed this land much more then the Arabs. AND, no other nation put any especial claim on the land BESIDES the Jews or the Arabs.


----------



## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> Lipush, P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> You know, not a week goes by that Israelis is not in the news, complaining that someone is going to wipe them off the map.
> 
> ...


Yeah, remember the Liberty but not 9-11, the marine barracks, the Cole bombing, Pan Am flight 103.  Another obsessed Jew hater.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Actually, the history of what people inhabited which parts of the Holy Land is much more complex than it is made out to be here. Everybody seems to forget that before the age of modern nationalism (barely a hundred years old in the Middle East) most people were identified according to their religion, not according to their ethnic background.


----------



## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

Even their flag is an invention and a fraud:

Jordanian flag





Palestinian flag


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Yet the Jews where in the land before the Arabs. And the Jews developed this land much more then the Arabs. AND, no other nation put any especial claim on the land BESIDES the Jews or the Arabs.



True, but the towns important to Arabs are not those important to Jews, and visa versa. 

Hence, settlement is possible and should work.

Ramallah, Nablus, Gaza and Jericho are clearly Arab towns (although Jews have lived in Jericho for 2,700 years). 

Tel Aviv, Haifa, Natanya and Tiberias are clearly Jewish towns. 

The only real problem is Akko, and there I think right of return might see most Palestinians content to live there and not in what is now the West Bank.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Yet the Jews where in the land before the Arabs. And the Jews developed this land much more then the Arabs. AND, no other nation put any especial claim on the land BESIDES the Jews or the Arabs.
> ...



So Jerusalem really isn't a problem according to you?


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Actually, the history of what people inhabited which parts of the Holy Land is much more complex than it is made out to be here. Everybody seems to forget that before the age of modern nationalism (barely a hundred years old in the Middle East) most people were identified according to their religion, not according to their ethnic background.



Yes, exactly! I totally agree. 

I find all of this obsession with Canaanites, Phoenicians and Philistines entirely irrelevent, and almost never discussed by people who are actually involved in this debate. 

It's largely a red herring, and what happened 3,000 years ago nowhere near as crucial to any final settlement as what has happened in the 20th century. 

I think, quite innocently, a lot of posters have got totally sidetracked by what happened in 0 Ad, and are totally cluesless as to the absolotely crucial events which took place 1899 - 1901 and 1926 - 1934.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Ramallah, Nablus, Gaza and Jericho are clearly Arab towns (although Jews have lived in Jericho for 2,700 years).
> ...



Unfortunately it is a problem!!

West Jersualem is clearly Jewish and East Jersualem clearly Palestinian, but the Old City I would prefer to see in the hands of the UN, and thus shared. 

It's the only fair solution, though of course it is one both sides would dispute.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



One of the interesting things about the so called Arabs. They range from blond with blue eyes to very dark skin and kinky hair. How can they all be part of a single race?


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> One of the interesting things about the so called Arabs. They range from blond with blue eyes to very dark skin and kinky hair. How can the all be part of a single race?



Bravo, Tinmore, you have really nailed a very, very key point!

I think some of our mor fascist-minded posters really struggle to tell the difference between race and nationality. 

I notice many Stormfronters refer to Africa as if it were one country - and not 51 countries, each with their own languages, cultures and histories. 

Likewise we see posters here referring to Islam and Arabs as a single mass - never realising there are a good 15 countries involved, each with their own languages, cultures and histories.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Clearly that would not be a solution. The track record of the UN in this regard is uniformly abysmal.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > One of the interesting things about the so called Arabs. They range from blond with blue eyes to very dark skin and kinky hair. How can the all be part of a single race?
> ...



It's really a sign of great stupidity and/or of a profoundly anti-historical mentality to throw around the word fascist as a simple insult.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Artevelde said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, the history of what people inhabited which parts of the Holy Land is much more complex than it is made out to be here. Everybody seems to forget that before the age of modern nationalism (barely a hundred years old in the Middle East) most people were identified according to their religion, not according to their ethnic background.
> ...



Sure, a lot of people have come and gone over time, However, there is a core population who had stayed and put down roots. They are the ones who built the cities, towns, and villages. They developed the agricultural land. They built the factories and shops.

These are the people who were the normal inhabitants within the borders that were defined in 1922. They are the ones who have the universally recognized right to self determination without foreign intervention.

That is the basis of my beliefs. How can anyone disagree with that?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Artevelde said:
> ...



Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?



I think Artevede is an excellent poster - he's intelligent, literate and fairly moderate. 

But he seems to be having an off day today - first apparently claiming that Israel must be the legal government of the West Bank because they conquered it, and then claiming many countries construct buildings outside their recognised borders....and using the South Pole as an example. 

Odd.


----------



## Hossfly (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...


One time I ate a dead frog.


----------



## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?
> ...



First of all, I never claimed Israel was the "legal government" of the West Bank. I stated a fact: that Israel currently exercises sovereign control over the West Bank and that the West Bank is not part of any other sovereign state. You really need to use words and terms more carefully.

Second, I did demonstrate (and not onlmy with the South Pole) that States do indeed construct all sort of infrastructure outside their territorial boundaries. It's a fact you have not been able to dispute.

You are also very naive to take at face value the lies of a pathological anti-Semite and racist like Tinmore.


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## Artevelde (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Artevelde said:


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Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?


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## Hossfly (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


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Do you have a link to that?


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## Hossfly (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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Of course not. Use your Googler and sense of humor.


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


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Of course not.


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## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Artevelde said:
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What have you said that was not either an outright lie or racist?


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Roudy said:


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Nice dodge.


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## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


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Just imagine how low on the totem pole it is that Arabs look down upon the Palestinans as trouble making criminal "trash" that none of them want any part of.  

Definitely an insult.


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Hossfly said:
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Still no link?


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## Roudy (May 25, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
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Link for what?  Non of the Arab countries will issue long term visas to Palestinians or take them in.  That is a fact. Palestinians sided with Sadam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait, which caused the Kuwaitis the kick their treasonous asses out when it was recaptured. Palestinians helped the slaughter of Christian Lebanese.  The Iranian govt has in seceral instances including the 1979 portests, imported Palestinian thugs to brutalize, kill, and torture it's own cities and protesters and citizens. And the Iranian govt and Palestinians are currently helping the Syrians kill and torture it's own people. Palestine = Terror central. 

Nobody wants these trouble making terrorists. Not even their own Arab brothers. Which begs the question, why should Israel?


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## RoccoR (May 25, 2012)

Roudy,  _et al,_

Who said anything about "hating Jews."



Roudy said:


> Yeah, remember the Liberty but not 9-11, the marine barracks, the Cole bombing, Pan Am flight 103.  Another obsessed Jew hater.


*(COMMENT)*

The USS Liberty was a direct assault by the Israelis on a US Naval Vessel.  That is completely different from:


New York attack by Al-Qaeda on 911.
A splinter group of Hezbollah  carried out the attack against the Marine Barracks in 1983.  It was in retaliation for America's support for Israel, and who many Palestinians believed allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia to massacre civilians in the refuge camps of Sabra and Shatila. 
The Pan Am Flight 103 bombing was orchestrated by Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi (Tripoli).

I suppose that anyone that is not in love with the Israelis is automatically a"Jew Hater."  That is not the case.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (May 25, 2012)

Saigon, Lipush,  _et al,_

There is a dispute over the meaning of UNSC Res 242 requirement:  "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict."  and the phrase: "termination of all claims or states of belligerency."
The Meaning of Resolution 242



Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Israelis have already established settlements; something they should not have done.  It is not likely that in areas where there are settlements, that the Israelis will give that up; and that will perpetuate the conflict.

At some point, Israel is going to have to Annex the Occupied Territories; if it entends to keep it.  But that creates a whole new set of issues; both legal and domestic.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Saigon (May 25, 2012)

Rocco - 

Good points, and might I say that it is nice to see someone posting here who has clearly studied the conflict. 

I don't expect Israel to give up most settlements, but this is something I believe most Palestinians understand as well. The Wall does effectively annex land, and what it is within that will likely be the border in future. 

This means Palestine will get, at most, around 88% of the West Bank, but the remaining 12% could be traded. There is land south of Jericho which Israel could swap for land around Gilo, for instance. 

It is not a solution that will thrill Palestinians, but it is practical.


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## docmauser1 (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> _It is not a solution that will thrill Palestinians, but it is practical._


A coordinated international humaniatarian effort of resettling palistanians is the solution, of course, and a thrilling one too!


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## docmauser1 (May 26, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> _The Israelis have already established settlements;_


Jews have to live somewhere too, not just arab settlers, of course.


RoccoR said:


> _something they should not have done._


How so?


RoccoR said:


> _It is not likely that in areas where there are settlements, that the Israelis will give that up; and that will perpetuate the conflict._


Of course! Arab settlers and squatters, ie. palistanians, will want it all intact, as they do now. No news, really.


RoccoR said:


> _At some point, Israel is going to have to Annex the Occupied Territories;_


We like bloviating about the resolution 242 without reading it, don't we? Figures.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.
> ...



That doesn't make any sense, if taking to mind two basic facts.

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria. 

Even Jimmy Carter HIMSELF recognized the right of the Jews to name the land that way, on October 1978 he wrote to Begin that in a letter.







^
l
l
l

Probably because of That.

Judea, because the tribe of Yehuda sat there to start with. We're the JEWS. See the connection?

It's the most basic oxymoron to say that the land which was named after the tribe that sat there, does not belong to the people of that tribe. Or it's just me that see the irony?

Anyway, in the future, the land may belong to the Palestinian state, but I don't think that Israel will agree with a negotiation which means taking the Jews of the Area out of there. If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> Saigon, Lipush,  _et al,_
> 
> There is a dispute over the meaning of UNSC Res 242 requirement:  "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict."  and the phrase: "termination of all claims or states of belligerency."
> The Meaning of Resolution 242
> ...



I believed I answered that in my previous post.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> Roudy,  _et al,_
> 
> Who said anything about "hating Jews."
> 
> ...



The USS Liberty incident was a horrible foolish accident; But still an accident. That is what we were taught at our schools, our colleges, and that is what our commandors made sure we will know, when I served in the Navy. Each year we had at least a month of learning about previous wars of the navy, and on special events, "Navy legacy" as we call it. We discussed the Libery issue all the time, none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
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The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.



> If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.



Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


> RoccoR said:
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Bright sunny day. American flag the size of a house. USS Liberty painted on the side. The only ship in the world with that profile.



> ...none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.



Of course they don't


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## Artevelde (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


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Sorry, but that really isn't historically accurate.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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Yet I will still take the word of the IDF before taking the word of any foreign source. Even American one.

Sue me.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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Yet Ahmed Tibi doesn't agree. Hamas doesn't agree. So what do we do?


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## Saigon (May 26, 2012)

> 1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.
> 
> 2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.



Judea and Samaria are the Israeli names, and when I am in Israel I use those - I also use Ramat ha-Golan. But I use Golan Heights when talking to westerners, and I guess you do too. 

West Bank is the more western name for the area, and it makes sense because it does suggest where the area actually is. 

I think both names are fine. 

Palestine never is and never was the same thing as Jordan - anymore so than Lebanon is or was the same thing as Syria. They are neighbouring areas, inhabited by similar but distinctly unique peoples. I don't see it as a thousand miles different from considering Austria and Germany, Ukraine and Russia or even Viet Nam and Cambodia. 

Jordan does not occupy anything. 'Transjordan' included the West Bank, but the term 'Jordan' does not. Britain recognised this, and sensibly separated the West Bank out from the Jordanian mandate territory. There was a time Jordan did look to annex the West Bank....but it was not a successful or popular experiment.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> > 1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.
> >
> > 2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.
> 
> ...



However, before the war Y&S was part of Jordan

I forgot to ask, Can you speak Hebrew fluently?


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## Saigon (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


> However, before the war Y&S was part of Jordan
> 
> I forgot to ask, Can you speak Hebrew fluently?



It was for a while, yes. But it didn't seem to suit either side - Palestinians felt they were being annexed, and Hashemites felt they were in danger of becoming a minority in their own country. 

My Hebrew was never fluent - I really regret that I didn't try harder when I first arrived, but I arrived thinking it was going to be impossible, and then after 9-10 months I realised I'd picked up quite a lot and only then really tried to learn - and then didn't have the time. 

I did some nightclasses in Arabic here, but didn't really have the motivation to study very hard.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Tibi did not address this specific issue here but he seems to be a reasonable person. Perhaps you have something that would be more informative.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_aR9MkvnRk]Ahmed Tibi interview with Yair Lapid - YouTube[/ame].


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## Hossfly (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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So Hamas says the Jews can stay as Palestinians. Does that mean they must convert to Islam or can they retain their Jewish faith as citizens?


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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None of Palestine's Christians or Jews have had to convert.


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## Hossfly (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
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That's good news but I doubt it.


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## RoccoR (May 26, 2012)

Lipush,  _et al,_

Loyalty is a most admirable quality.  I only mentioned the USS Liberty because the anniversary of the attack is around the corner (8 JUNE).  That is what brought it to mind.  I mentioned it, originally, in Remembrance of the 34 Officers and Men.  It is not a standard Post Script.  As it appears to be offensive, I will not use it again; in this forum.  



			
				Jewish Virtual Library said:
			
		

> The USS Liberty was decommissioned in 1968 and later sold for scrap. That same year, William McGonagle received the Congressional Medal of Honor for gallantry displayed during the attack, and Israel paid over $6 million in restitution to the families of those wounded and killed. An additional $6 million in damages was paid under a 1980 agreement in which Israel and the United States consented "not to address the issue or motive or reopen the case for any reason."51
> _*SOURCE: *_ The USS Liberty: Case Closed
> Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem



I further apologize for any slight my "Remembrance" may have projected.



Lipush said:


> Yet I will still take the word of the IDF before taking the word of any foreign source. Even American one.
> 
> Sue me.


*(COMMENT)*

One's loyalty to country and nation is something that you don't challenge.  It is an everlasting pledge of the most personal kind.  It is something that is almost beyond description, yet understood by many who answer their nation's call to duty.  Whether friend or foe, it is something we have in common.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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I'm sorry I brought it up.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
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That what the Palestinians would want. However, Israelis will stick to normal lifestyle, thank you.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


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What would the Palestinians want?


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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The same thing 99% of the Muslims want. A world which is ruled by Shariah. Duh.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Hamas said that it cannot impose religious laws because the people will not have it.
Whenever a little something pops up like head scarfs, for example, the women get in their faces and they back down.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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Hamas are already forcing religious laws in Gaza.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2012)

Lipush said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Two women talk about Gaza. Gaza starts at 10:15

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq9zTDAjmiI]41 Sleepless Gaza Jerusalem...divx - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > However, before the war Y&S was part of Jordan
> ...


Night classes in Arabic?  Where, at the mosque?  I bet Arabic wasn't the ony thing they taught this convert kalb kezab.


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## Roudy (May 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
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Hee hee hee. Hamas is an Islamic organization, they have their Taliban-like "morality police" roaming Gaza enforcing strict Islamic behavior.  We all know what savagery and oppression that entails.  Their intention is to bring about an Islamic khalifate of Palestine that will totally replace "the Zionist entity", and they are financed by other barbaric terrorist Islamists like themselves to bring that about, by any means necessary. Does Tiny brain the paid liar for terror think everybody is as stupid and ignorant as he is, that they can't see his lies?


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## Saigon (May 26, 2012)

Roudy said:


> Saigon said:
> 
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No, I studied Arabic at a Polytech. 

It's interesting given you found it impossible to believe that another poster could learn Farsi, and yet you are probably the only poster on these threads who has never even conidered learning a Middle East language. 

This says a lot - most people interested in a topic set about learning it. 

Others, such as yourself, prefer ignorance.


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## Hossfly (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry.


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## Roudy (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
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Aside from your usual BS.  What's interesting is, what drives a person to learn Arabic?  What use would a person have for learning Arabic?  People usually learn a language if they have a use for it. Arabic would be the last language a person would want to learn unless...


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## Roudy (May 26, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Yup. Amazing isn't it Hoss?  This idiot still hasn't figured it out, I can read it like an open book. Funny part is it thinks it's actually fooling anybody. It sits around with his / her Arab buddies and repeats all those great things it learned on StormFront about Jews and Israel. What a piece of KHARA!  Ha ha ha!


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## Saigon (May 26, 2012)

Roudy - 

I think most people who travel a lot try to pick up some phrases in the local language of whatever country the find themselves in. I studied Spanish intensively for travel in South America, a little Swahili for Africa, and Skandinaviske for use in Northern Europe. 

Anyone traveling in the Arab would should do a few classes in Arabic, just as a basic travel tool. 

You'll never get to Square One of this debate without this kind of experience, as I am sure you realise yourself.


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## Hossfly (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> I think most people who travel a lot try to pick up some phrases in the local language of whatever country the find themselves in. I studied Spanish intensively for travel in South America, a little Swahili for Africa, and Skandinaviske for use in Northern Europe.
> 
> ...


Ever been to Babel?


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## Saigon (May 26, 2012)

Hossfly - 

It's amazing to think of the places people can travel to learn and about if they aren't prevented from doing so by small-minded bigotry and ignorance. 

I think both of you realise that 90% of what you believe is just a fantasy, and most of that would be blown away in the first ten minutes you stood in Beirut or Jerusalem. 

Have you ever met a Stormfronter who has been to Birkenau?

Ignorance and information just don't fit well together.


btw. The other day you mentioned being a big reader - do add your favourites on to the reading list thread. I'm always looking for decent books.


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## Hossfly (May 26, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hossfly -
> 
> It's amazing to think of the places people can travel to learn and about if they aren't prevented from doing so by small-minded bigotry and ignorance.
> 
> ...


I have two books I will add to the reading list thread , probably tomorrow. Make that three.


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## ima (May 27, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> btw. The other day you mentioned being a big reader - do add your favourites on to the reading list thread. I'm always looking for decent books.
> I have two books I will add to the reading list thread , probably tomorrow. Make that three.



Harry Potter, Lord of the rings and Horton hears a who don't count.


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