# A serious question about Jewish history



## Indofred

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-

This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-


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## Lipush

Jews have been hated for many reasons. Many times Jews have been willing to separate themselves out of rest of community, so hoping being harmed less. they were simply "different" from the others, which at times was viewed in not so nice ways.


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## Indofred

Lipush said:


> Jews have been hated for many reasons. Many times Jews have been willing to separate themselves out of rest of community, so hoping being harmed less. they were simply "different" from the others, which at times was viewed in not so nice ways.



An interesting thought but it doesn't really explain why the hate.

BBC News - Q&A: Jews in Britain

I'm trying to find unbiased sites in order to avoid stupid hate filled crap (that's not always easy) but this BBC article seems to go some way to explaining at least part of it.

BBC News - Q&A: Jews in Britain



> The Jews who arrived with William the Conqueror were merchants and bankers - they became an integral part of the early Norman period because Christians (much like Muslims today) were forbidden from lending money at interest.



Money lenders and tax collectors are never the most popular groups in any society so I wonder if that was enough to start hate stories.



> Resentment of their perceived wealth, exacerbated by the popular belief that they killed Jesus, grew in towns and cities, despite the fact that Jewish communities often lived in poor conditions.
> By the 12th century, Jews were being accused of the ritual murder of Christian children, known as "blood libels". The earliest such story is that of the death of a 12-year-old boy, William of Norwich, in 1144.



Now, if that proves a reasonable explanation, did the same conditions apply in other places in other times.

As for separation, I believe that's always a negative to being understood. 
In the UK, there are Muslim 'ghettos' and not even close to enough mixing of the populations. I believe that is why there is so much mistrust and misunderstanding there.
That in mind, did the Jews of the time live separately and, if that was the case, did that contribute to the problem?


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## editec

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> S*o, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?*
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-





> *xenophobia &#8194; *
> 
> 
> xen·o·pho·bi·a  [zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-]  Show IPA
> noun
> an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.




YOu can look for specific reasons specific to Jews, of course, but the real answer is the above.

Peasants world-wide fear strangers.

And if those strangers move in and aren't planning on leaving?

Well, their fear inevitably becomes hatred.

And strangers in the midst of an alien culture become very useful scapegoats that the masters can use to foist off the blame when things do south.


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## Lipush

People tend to hate what they do not understand or can relate (to), or fear.

As for being marchants and bankers, well, that may has something to do with it.

Living separated from the others had many reasons. It is much easier to avoid hate of you AVOID hate by sticking together. It is much easier to stick together even without hate, because the man's nature is to like the ones similar to him and detach from those he see as different.

it's also survival mechanism. Being so few, Jews at times didn't want to "mix" always with others, fearing the nation might mix "too much" and disappear. That's also something that can very much trigger hatred.

Jews had different way of speech and different way of behaving at times. when you put all this together, well, the answer is clear.


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## MHunterB

In fact, our relative acceptance by the US as 'just folks' is the exception.  The 'universal' hatefulness against Jews doesn't testify to anything about Jews but about humans in general:  ANY excuse for attacking a minority who maintain their 'difference' is a good one.

Kashrut probably had a lot to do with it - after all, people the world 'round know that 'food is love'.  

"And whaddya mean, you won't eat part of this roast pig ????   It's a neighborhood barbecue - aren't you part of the neighborhood?"

If people choose to feel insulted, they will then 'discover' a reason to justify that feeling.  I say 'choose to', because mature individuals have the option of 'going with' a feeling, or pausing to assess 'where' that feeling is coming from...... 

The more habitual such 'justifying feelings' is, the more any prejudices become entrenched.

If one speaks to 'Vietnamese-Chinese' or other Han people who settled elsewhere in Asia, it's much the same.  So if it's 'something about the Jews', it's 'something about the Chinese' as well......


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## Lipush

" ANY excuse for attacking a minority who maintain their 'difference' is a good one."

I *totally* agree with you on that one.


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## Bill Angel

One interesting aspect of this topic is relation between outbreaks of plague and persecution of the Jews.
See Black Death Jewish persecutions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's from the spread of the plague that the association between Jews and rats originated.


> Rats are not simply animals, they are they frequently imagined as the incarnation of all uncleanness. They are also*vermin*whose destruction most people would favour, and against whose designation as pests even the most dedicated animal rights campaigners do not generally protest.. It ought not to be necessary to point out that the political party who perhaps had the greatest recourse to such imagery in modern history was the National Socialist Party in Germany.**


 See Anti-semitism and propaganda:Streicher, Goebbels and rats


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## martybegan

Lipush said:


> Jews have been hated for many reasons. Many times Jews have been willing to separate themselves out of rest of community, so hoping being harmed less. they were simply "different" from the others, which at times was viewed in not so nice ways.



This ties into one of the other reasons, is that people in power used them as a blame mechanism for when they had to placate the peseants.

It allowed a convienent escape clause for the rulers at the time. "Dont be mad at ME, I'm trying to help, THEY are the cause of your problems."


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## Circe

I think it's because they are smarter. Bred that way for millennia, fully 17 points average IQ difference in America alone (actually, the American difference is highest -- probably reflecting the fact that the smartest immigrated, especially during the 1930s in Germany). (ref: "The Bell Curve," by Herrenstein and Murray.)

Being smarter results in a lot of problems for a society when Jews stop being restricted by law or common agreement in the culture. 

Germany stopped the laws against Jewish employment in 1875, IIRC, and that resulted in a rapid replacement of native Germans in universities and medicine and corporations and the arts. And so Germany changed from highly tolerant in 1900 to the very angry "Jews Are the Enemy" attitude of the 1930s. 

The same thing has happened here --- Jews dominate the higher intellectual ranks of all employment -- but we have so far been accepting of that. 

117 IQ is a HUGE difference from average 100 in terms of how well a population does. Obviously 117 by itself is not enough to work at a high level: that requires upper 120s at the least. But the higher the average, the more people available in a population that have much higher IQs.  That's what is going on. The proportion of people who have the IQ to become doctors is just much higher in Jews because they start at a higher population average IQ. 

This causes envy; I suspect envy is at least equal to xenophobia in being a problem for outgroups in societies. Nobody envies the poor underclass, so there is less prejudice against blacks and Hispanics, overall. People are prejudiced against the crime and don't like them looking different, but there is no envy.


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## Lipush

True.


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## martybegan

Circe said:


> I think it's because they are smarter. Bred that way for millennia, fully 17 points average IQ difference in America alone (actually, the American difference is highest -- probably reflecting the fact that the smartest immigrated, especially during the 1930s in Germany). (ref: "The Bell Curve," by Herrenstein and Murray.)
> 
> Being smarter results in a lot of problems for a society when Jews stop being restricted by law or common agreement in the culture.
> 
> Germany stopped the laws against Jewish employment in 1875, IIRC, and that resulted in a rapid replacement of native Germans in universities and medicine and corporations and the arts. And so Germany changed from highly tolerant in 1900 to the very angry "Jews Are the Enemy" attitude of the 1930s.
> 
> The same thing has happened here --- Jews dominate the higher intellectual ranks of all employment -- but we have so far been accepting of that.
> 
> 117 IQ is a HUGE difference from average 100 in terms of how well a population does. Obviously 117 by itself is not enough to work at a high level: that requires upper 120s at the least. But the higher the average, the more people available in a population that have much higher IQs.  That's what is going on. The proportion of people who have the IQ to become doctors is just much higher in Jews because they start at a higher population average IQ.
> 
> This causes envy; I suspect envy is at least equal to xenophobia in being a problem for outgroups in societies. Nobody envies the poor underclass, so there is less prejudice against blacks and Hispanics, overall. People are prejudiced against the crime and don't like them looking different, but there is no envy.



In most places they did not dominate the areas of higher education and higher level employment, they were merely over-represented based on population percentage. 

You have to remember that jews were usually forbidden to own land during the medival period, and land was your source of poltiical power and livelyhood. Being forced into cities, and not having the ursury restriction you found from the church at the time, the only way they could make a living was a combination of moneylending, professions, and tinkering.


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## CMike

People need someone or people to blame their woes on, rather than take responsibility for their own situations.


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## Circe

martybegan said:


> You have to remember that jews were usually forbidden to own land during the medival period, and land was your source of poltiical power and livelyhood. Being forced into cities, and not having the ursury restriction you found from the church at the time, the only way they could make a living was a combination of moneylending, professions, and tinkering.




Needs must, when --- never mind.

However, that moneylending profession also became problematic, as Jews came to hold large mortgages on the land properties of a lot of nobles in England; and were expelled wholesale by Edward II. That was probably also in somewhat belated support of the Templar extinction by Philip the Fair, who asked for Edward's support --- same deal with the more-or-less Christian Templars as with the Jews, just too much money, always a huge temptation for the dominant population to simply ---- take. Now that is an efficient way to pay off debts: just get rid of the mortgage holders. Probably not a good idea for Jews to let that situation get so centralized in one community.

Isabella also expelled the Jews from Spain, in 1493, IIRC. I have several books on that which I haven't read yet, and am curious to see what were the issues there. Moneylending again? Or simply the heresy/non-Christian issues that agitated much of central Europe since about 1170, related to whether the Catholic Church would control Europe, or not. I don't think hardly anyone now realizes just how much of a problem Cathar and other heresies were to the Church at that time, and Jews inevitably got swept up in all that.


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## iolo

It seems to me that at times of social tension majorities always reaffirm their own solidarity by attacking any convenient minority  - lots of groups come in for this.   What makes it worse for the Jewsih people is that they have been a minority almost everywhere - and so almost always the victims of  one lot of projection-merchants or another, that some of them were rich and worth robbing and, most of all, that they were a *religious* minority.   People always seem get peculiarly self-righteous and wicked when they believe they are picking on the 'enemy' of their own imagined God, I  think.


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## hoosier88

iolo said:


> It seems to me that at times of social tension majorities always reaffirm their own solidarity by attacking any convenient minority  - lots of groups come in for this.   What makes it worse for the Jewsih people is that they have been a minority almost everywhere - and so almost always the victims of  one lot of projection-merchants or another, that some of them were rich and worth robbing and, most of all, that they were a *religious* minority.   *People always seem get peculiarly self-righteous and wicked when they believe they are picking on the 'enemy' of their own imagined God,* I  think.




(My bold)

That's the point.  It wasn't Christianity's God, it was the Jewish Yahweh, & it wasn't the Old Testament, it was the Jewish holy book.  Jesus was Jewish, & he joined with the Holy Spirit in the triune God - once dead & risen for a few centuries.  Once Jesus' followers gave up on converting all of Judaism to Christianity - & once Christianity began to prosper in Emperor Constantine's time - the usurpers were in a position to enforce their holy will upon the _*refuseniks.  *_

Christianity in Medieval times was a savage religion, perfectly willing to deal with theological oppostion by assault & murder (they'd practiced on each other in the Levant & N. Africa, after all).  Most of the theological justifications for the charge of Christ-murders ignores the commonality of Jewish culture with that of Jesus - & somehow the New Testament theology manages to tap-dance around the justification/identification of Jesus as the Messiah - even though the Jewish rabbis & sages refused to so identify Jesus.  

So we picked & chose - & made the Jews (except for Jesus & his hand-picked chosen men, of course) stand-ins for the Devil.  It's all v. complicated, easier to scream & froth "Christ killers!" that to examine v. murky definitions & theological concepts.  Is it "of the essence", of homologous essence, or analgous essence?  People used to die for such niceties.  But never fear, those days are long gone ...

" ... & the home of the brave!"  Play ball!


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## arKangel

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-



yeppers,
The jews are the chosen ones! They are beyond reproach and are the most perfect of all people ever to exist!

Why, anyone who doesn't accept the divine supremacy of the jews must be someone who *gasp* hates!

--

Sarcasm aside...

Hate?
What hate?

A better question should be:
Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?


Historically speaking - strangers never have good intentions.  Strangers invade to loot, rape, murder, and enslave. People throughout history have been absolutely justified in resistance to foreign invaders.  Pretending otherwise is pure intellectual dishonesty.


By the way, comparing the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to "crap time" is quite an anti-Christian thing to say.


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## sealadaigh

editec said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> S*o, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?*
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *xenophobia &#8194; *
> 
> 
> xen·o·pho·bi·a  [zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-]  Show IPA
> noun
> an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> YOu can look for specific reasons specific to Jews, of course, but the real answer is the above.
> 
> Peasants world-wide fear strangers.
> 
> And if those strangers move in and aren't planning on leaving?
> 
> Well, their fear inevitably becomes hatred.
> 
> And strangers in the midst of an alien culture become very useful scapegoats that the masters can use to foist off the blame when things do south.
Click to expand...


most "strangers" eventually assimilate and become integral and working parts of the mainstream culture. jews are not particularly remakable in appearance or any other physical aspects that would make them stand out as strangers in many of the places they have been shunned.

i mean, look at the muslims in europe, theey are well on their way to becoming accepted after perhaps a generation but jews are still being discriminated against after over 2000 years, or so they claim.

could it be their culture? cultures inculcate certain behaviours and values among its members.


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## sealadaigh

Lipush said:


> True.



(lipush's response to a statement by circe that jews are smarter than gentiles.)

perhaps jews are disliked and chased ot of places because their culture teaches their children to colossally arrogant, resulting in the belief that they are smarter or in other ways superior.

and the post by circe also referred to "the bell curve" theory of intelligence. LOL...now, were i a black person reading that, i would probably not be too fond of jewish people. here they are complaining about bigotry and lending credence to the "bell curve".


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## Lipush

arKangel said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeppers,
> The jews are the chosen ones! They are beyond reproach and are the most perfect of all people ever to exist!
> 
> Why, anyone who doesn't accept the divine supremacy of the jews must be someone who *gasp* hates!
> 
> --
> 
> Sarcasm aside...
> 
> Hate?
> What hate?
> 
> A better question should be:
> Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?
> 
> 
> Historically speaking - strangers never have good intentions.  Strangers invade to loot, rape, murder, and enslave. People throughout history have been absolutely justified in resistance to foreign invaders.  Pretending otherwise is pure intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> 
> By the way, comparing the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to "crap time" is quite an anti-Christian thing to say.
Click to expand...


Jews have tried to mix and blend in with the rest of the community in many states they were in, but they got the brush off.

Wanna say, you're not making any sense in your statement.


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## Toronado3800

My guess is based on the Jews being a minority in Catholic then Christian Europe.

Nothing more, nothing less.

This is true even in Christian America.

Now throw them into a confusing geographical battle in the modern middle east and rub them against Muslims and you have more problems.

I do always think of Jews and Native Americans as getting the short end of the stick (Poland also).  But is there a religous minority in Europe who have had an easier time?  In America?


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## sealadaigh

Circe said:


> I think it's because they are smarter. Bred that way for millennia, fully 17 points average IQ difference in America alone (actually, the American difference is highest -- probably reflecting the fact that the smartest immigrated, especially during the 1930s in Germany). (ref: "The Bell Curve," by Herrenstein and Murray.)
> 
> Being smarter results in a lot of problems for a society when Jews stop being restricted by law or common agreement in the culture.
> 
> Germany stopped the laws against Jewish employment in 1875, IIRC, and that resulted in a rapid replacement of native Germans in universities and medicine and corporations and the arts. And so Germany changed from highly tolerant in 1900 to the very angry "Jews Are the Enemy" attitude of the 1930s.
> 
> The same thing has happened here --- Jews dominate the higher intellectual ranks of all employment -- but we have so far been accepting of that.
> 
> 117 IQ is a HUGE difference from average 100 in terms of how well a population does. Obviously 117 by itself is not enough to work at a high level: that requires upper 120s at the least. But the higher the average, the more people available in a population that have much higher IQs.  That's what is going on. The proportion of people who have the IQ to become doctors is just much higher in Jews because they start at a higher population average IQ.
> 
> This causes envy; I suspect envy is at least equal to xenophobia in being a problem for outgroups in societies. Nobody envies the poor underclass, *so there is less prejudice against blacks and Hispanics*, overall. People are prejudiced against the crime and don't like them looking different, but there is no envy.



maybe if the blacks and mexicans weren't so lazy and shiftless, they could ascend to the upper echelons of society like jewish people and then they would feel the full wrath of bigotry, doncha think? damn darkie convicts.

so, let me get this straight...there is no anti-semitism. there is anti-smart peopleism.


----------



## sealadaigh

Toronado3800 said:


> My guess is based on the Jews being a minority in Catholic then Christian Europe.
> 
> Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> This is true even in Christian America.
> 
> Now throw them into a confusing geographical battle in the modern middle east and rub them against Muslims and you have more problems.
> 
> I do always think of Jews and Native Americans as getting the short end of the stick (Poland also).  But is there a religous minority in Europe who have had an easier time?  In America?



i keep reading about thriving, prosperous, and well accepted jewish communities in the mideast and north africa before the advent of zionism. maybe it isn't aabout religious beliefs.

my understanding is that chanukkah is a minor holiday in judaism and the big ones are yom kippur and passover? kind of like the major christian holidays are christmas and easter?


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## Indofred

I've been a little too busy with work related stuff to do as much research as I want on this tread but I've bookmarked it for a time when I have.
I intend to find out as much as I can about the general social situation and that regarding Jews in the areas where massacres and so on took place.
That way, I hope to see if there were any common factors before each incidence.
As for Zionism/Israel, that may well be at least a partial cause to today's hate but it doesn't do much to explain the problems of old.

Working when I get time but I may be starting to lecture on new social studies course so I have to bone up on the course work before  decide whether to take the seat or not.


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## there4eyeM

" ANY excuse for attacking a minority who maintain their 'difference' is a good one."

Well, not 'good', but obviously sufficient.


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## MHunterB

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> True.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (lipush's response to a statement by circe that jews are smarter than gentiles.)
> 
> perhaps jews are disliked and chased ot of places because their culture teaches their children to colossally arrogant, resulting in the belief that they are smarter or in other ways superior.
> 
> and the post by circe also referred to "the bell curve" theory of intelligence. LOL...now, were i a black person reading that, i would probably not be too fond of jewish people. here they are complaining about bigotry and lending credence to the "bell curve".
Click to expand...


Except that 'their culture' does not teach any such thing.  The colossal arrogance can be found in the minds of those non-Jews who refuse to believe ay Jewish posters' words on this topic even when a wide range of Jewish people are unanimous in denying that common slander.

I don't know what else to call it but 'colossal arrogance' when people 'outside' choose to elevate their own *feelings* over the experiences of so many 'inside'.....  it's like people still insisting that 'blacks are so often poor because they're lazy', or something similar.


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## novasteve

There was an upswing in antisemitism after Oliver Twist came out.


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## MHunterB

The problem with IQ tests is that the one thing we are sure they measure is 'performance on IQ tests' - and not necessarily 'raw IQ'.

An array of factors goes into 'performance' which has nothing to do with actual IQ:  test bias, cultural bias, learning 'disabilities' (which may or may not be simply different-from-dominant patterns of reasoning) - and the fact that there are something like 9 'intelligences' which tend to interact in many instances.

And then there is the question of 'motivation':  in some circles, academic success is considered 'uncool'.  Some 50+ years ago, girls were still 'taught' by peer pressure and popular culture that being 'good at math' was not 'feminine'..... Even after the US was shocked by Sputnik overhead, it STILL was 'uncool' for a girl to be smarter than the guy who was dating her.  (Thank You, GOD, for giving me to a father who had the sense to teach me to ignore that crap!!!)

How many apparent IQ points is it going to be worth, to be raised in a home and a milieu where critical thinking is highly valued and academic excellence is a particular goal?  

How many apparent IQ points does it shave off, to be raised in a home and milieu where being 'cool' according to the standards of 'pop culture' is a particular goal?


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## arKangel

Lipush said:


> arKangel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeppers,
> The jews are the chosen ones! They are beyond reproach and are the most perfect of all people ever to exist!
> 
> Why, anyone who doesn't accept the divine supremacy of the jews must be someone who *gasp* hates!
> 
> --
> 
> Sarcasm aside...
> 
> Hate?
> What hate?
> 
> A better question should be:
> Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?
> 
> 
> Historically speaking - strangers never have good intentions.  Strangers invade to loot, rape, murder, and enslave. People throughout history have been absolutely justified in resistance to foreign invaders.  Pretending otherwise is pure intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> 
> By the way, comparing the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to "crap time" is quite an anti-Christian thing to say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jews have tried to mix and blend in with the rest of the community in many states they were in, but they got the brush off.
> 
> Wanna say, you're not making any sense in your statement.
Click to expand...


Blatantly refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior in a Christian land you are invading, is somehow "blending in"?

Surely you jest.


----------



## arKangel

MHunterB said:


> The problem with IQ tests is that the one thing we are sure they measure is 'performance on IQ tests' - and not necessarily 'raw IQ'.
> 
> An array of factors goes into 'performance' which has nothing to do with actual IQ:  test bias, cultural bias, learning 'disabilities' (which may or may not be simply different-from-dominant patterns of reasoning) - and the fact that there are something like 9 'intelligences' which tend to interact in many instances.
> 
> And then there is the question of 'motivation':  in some circles, academic success is considered 'uncool'.  Some 50+ years ago, girls were still 'taught' by peer pressure and popular culture that being 'good at math' was not 'feminine'..... Even after the US was shocked by Sputnik overhead, it STILL was 'uncool' for a girl to be smarter than the guy who was dating her.  (Thank You, GOD, for giving me to a father who had the sense to teach me to ignore that crap!!!)
> 
> How many apparent IQ points is it going to be worth, to be raised in a home and a milieu where critical thinking is highly valued and academic excellence is a particular goal?
> 
> How many apparent IQ points does it shave off, to be raised in a home and milieu where being 'cool' according to the standards of 'pop culture' is a particular goal?



I.Q. tests were designed to help place children in the right curriculum.  Even the first designers of such tests acknowledged that they were essentially jabberwocky.

I have thanked God more times than I can remember that my wife has a calculator in her head.  Even though she was raised to believe that her "IQ" was inherently lower because of her gender, she still uses her mind... Praise to Christ! she rejects such indoctrination.


----------



## Indofred

arKangel said:


> Hate?
> What hate?
> 
> A better question should be:
> Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?



That isn't really very helpful.
There is no evidence offered; just an unsupported opinion so it's not up to much.
I assume you're attempting to say; "Jews get up peoples' noses because they're just so convinced they're right about everything".
There may be an element of truth in there somewhere but it's hardly likely to cause mass murder, more getting slightly pissed off with someone and not inviting them to parties.


----------



## Indofred

reabhloideach said:


> most "strangers" eventually assimilate and become integral and working parts of the mainstream culture. jews are not particularly remakable in appearance or any other physical aspects that would make them stand out as strangers in many of the places they have been shunned.
> 
> i mean, look at the muslims in europe, theey are well on their way to becoming accepted after perhaps a generation but jews are still being discriminated against after over 2000 years, or so they claim.
> 
> could it be their culture? cultures inculcate certain behaviours and values among its members.



I disagree.
Many Muslims populations in Europe are living in Muslim ghettos and are more than hated and feared around the areas they live in.
My own home town has this very problem of a closed society living within a greater population and that population feeling unsafe in the Muslim areas.
If the Jews of old lived in similar conditions, it may well explain at least some of the problems.


----------



## Indofred

novasteve said:


> There was an upswing in antisemitism after Oliver Twist came out.



That's an interesting post.

The Jewish Population of Victorian England



> "In 1800, the overwhelming majority of London's Jews, rich and poor, were still living in the East End of London, in and around the city" (Black 63). Not until decades later would Jews move out of the East End and move outwards from London and form their own communities. East End was the complete opposite of West End London. Black describes " a great part of the East End in gloomily picturesque panorama. The angular meanness of the buildings is veiled [with] the dusk" (Black 63). Similar to a ghetto and being the poorer side of town, it perpetuated the stereotype that the Jewish population consisted of shady people.



That' if accurate, suggest a parallel between modern British Muslim populations' living conditions and those of Jews in Victorian England.
There seems to be similar dislike of the two groups so it's a possible theory.


----------



## editec

Indofred said:


> I've been a little too busy with work related stuff to do as much research as I want on this tread but I've bookmarked it for a time when I have.
> I intend to find out as much as I can about the general social situation and that regarding Jews in the areas where massacres and so on took place.
> That way, I hope to see if there were any common factors before each incidence.
> As for Zionism/Israel, that may well be at least a partial cause to today's hate but it doesn't do much to explain the problems of old.
> 
> Working when I get time but I may be starting to lecture on new social studies course so I have to bone up on the course work before  decide whether to take the seat or not.



I think what you'll find is that the only common thread between the various histories of antiSemetism in Europe is that Jews were NOT considered true citizens and members of the greater society in which they lived.

They were, therefore,  *convenient scapegoats* to explain hard times, or the King's screwups.

Remember that most of the time the JEWS were considered "the Kings guests" in a country, so their treatment by the rest of society could change at the whim of the monarch.


----------



## Sunni Man

On another thread I once stated that greed was in the hebrew DNA.

(Avarice would have been a better word to use)

If you read the Torah it says that Abraham was the wealthiest man of his time; same with Soloman, King David, and other chosen people notables. So yes, it is in their psyche, if not their biology

That being said, the Jews have a pejorative tendency to put themselves in societal positions to control their host nations money and economy.

It's been that way since Joseph was sold into slavey by his brothers and eventually ended up being Pharaohs head man in charge of Egypt's treasury. 


And you can see that behavior right here in the U.S.

Just look at the last names of the heads of the top financial institutions or the heads of the Federal Reserve. 


Anyway, once the "Chosen People" have an iron grip on their host nation's economy. 

They start trying to destroy the customs and traditions of that nation to better position themselves. So they enter politics and the judicial system in order to help make the laws and give them even more power. 

This behavior is easily evidenced right here in America. Just look at the leadership of any group advocating change of social morals and values; feminism, gay rights agenda, teachers unions, redefining marriage, etc. The heads of the advocating group or organization will most likely be a Jew.


This behavior follows the hebrew people no matter what country naively allows them to enter their land and set up shop. 

After many years; eventually the indigenous people of the host country discover they are no longer in control of their nation, or their cultural destiny, and demand change. And drive the Jews out of their land. So the Jews seek another host country to give them refuge and start the process again.

This same senario has played out many times over many centuries..........


----------



## Votto

Indofred said:


> arKangel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate?
> What hate?
> 
> A better question should be:
> Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't really very helpful.
> There is no evidence offered; just an unsupported opinion so it's not up to much.
> I assume you're attempting to say; "Jews get up peoples' noses because they're just so convinced they're right about everything".
> There may be an element of truth in there somewhere but it's hardly likely to cause mass murder, more getting slightly pissed off with someone and not inviting them to parties.
Click to expand...


I'll cut right to the chase.  The reason that the Jews are hated, at least the major one, is that they are successful.  It's called envy.

I won't bore you with web sites showing incomes of Jews to other minorities.  Just know that they are at the top and seem to have been since the early days of persecution.

Just ask the Occupy Wall Street types who point to the Jewish Bankers as the source of all their woes.  Ironnically, this Marxist type of thinking was generated by a Jew, Karl Marx.

Hitler also tapped into this class envy as he heavily taxed the top 4% of the nation and then simply took all the Jewish money for himself.  Countries that they were forced to leave even had their economies suffer significantly from it.  For some coveting is a virtue.

But it's just not money they are good at making.  Just google how many Jews have won a Nobel Prize.  They seem to have cornered the market on brain power.  Bibilically the Jews are said to be a blessing for the rest of the world, however, according to others they are a curse because they tend to be more successful in life.  I suppose most would fall into one or the other camp.  Just know that Jew hatred is as alive and well today as it has ever been.  Some things never change.


----------



## MHunterB

Edictec's observations were spot on.

And Sunni's 'comments' provide us with proof of that accuracy:  

"On another thread I once stated that greed was in the hebrew DNA.

(Avarice would have been a better word to use)

If you read the Torah it says that Abraham was the wealthiest man of his time; same with Soloman, King David, and other chosen people notables. So yes, it is in their psyche, if not their biology

That being said, the Jews have a pejorative tendency to put themselves in societal positions to control their* host nations *money and economy."


----------



## Indofred

I can accept DNA giving someone a large nose or facial features that may well be common in a given group but I would find it harder to accept that as a cause of greed.
There is no arguement, there are very rich Jewish bankers but does that transfer to the whole population?
Stereotypes aren't evidence.
Moving on, if the theory of Jewish take over of the host is true, you should provide evidence of this in every case of serious assault on a Jewish population.


----------



## Sunni Man

*109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*


                       YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

                         250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
                         415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
                         554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
                         561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
                         612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
                         642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
                         855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                         876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
                        1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
                        1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
                        1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
                        1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
                        1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
                        1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
                        1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
                        1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
                        1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
                        1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                        1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
                        1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
                        1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
                        1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
                        1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
                        1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
                        1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
                        1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
                        1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
                        1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
                        1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
                        1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
                        1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
                        1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
                        1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
                        1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
                        1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
                        1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
                        1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
                        1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
                        1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
                        1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
                        1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
                        1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
                        1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
                        1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
                        1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
                        1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
                        1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries


----------



## t_polkow

Another reason for the hate I Believe has to do with the christian bible

The charge against "the Jews" permeates the pages of the" New Testament". In the Gospel of Matthew, Pilate literally washes his hands while "all the people" - all the Jewish people - clamour for Jesus's death: "Let him be crucified ... His blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27.23, 27).

John's Gospel indentifies the Jews as "from your father the devil" (John 8.44) and blames them for backing Pilate into a corner and forcing him to kill an innocent man.

In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter charges "the entire house of Israel" (Acts 2.36) with crucifying Jesus and so having "killed the Author of life" (Acts 3.14-15). Paul then bluntly refers to "the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 2.14-15).

Perhaps this vilification of the Jewih Population  was inevitable. Jesus's followers could not understand how the vast majority of Jews could not accept their belief in him as the Messiah.


----------



## Indofred

This list we know about, why is more interesting.
From a Muslim point of view, many of the social conditions seem to apply to Muslim populations today.
Perhaps an understanding of Jewish history can help us.

Even if it's no use, education is always worth some time.


----------



## MHunterB

Indofred said:


> This we know, why is more interesting.
> From a Muslim point of view, many of the social conditions seem to apply to Muslim populations today.
> Perhaps an understanding of Jewish history can help us.
> 
> *Even if it's no use, education is always worth some time*.



And that, especially the bold, is a very Jewish attitude.


----------



## Intense

Sunni Man said:


> On another thread I once stated that greed was in the hebrew DNA.
> 
> (Avarice would have been a better word to use)
> 
> If you read the Torah it says that Abraham was the wealthiest man of his time; same with Soloman, King David, and other chosen people notables. So yes, it is in their psyche, if not their biology
> 
> That being said, the Jews have a pejorative tendency to put themselves in societal positions to control their host nations money and economy.
> 
> It's been that way since Joseph was sold into slavey by his brothers and eventually ended up being Pharaohs head man in charge of Egypt's treasury.
> 
> 
> And you can see that behavior right here in the U.S.
> 
> Just look at the last names of the heads of the top financial institutions or the heads of the Federal Reserve.
> 
> 
> Anyway, once the "Chosen People" have an iron grip on their host nation's economy.
> 
> They start trying to destroy the customs and traditions of that nation to better position themselves. So they enter politics and the judicial system in order to help make the laws and give them even more power.
> 
> This behavior is easily evidenced right here in America. Just look at the leadership of any group advocating change of social morals and values; feminism, gay rights agenda, teachers unions, redefining marriage, etc. The heads of the advocating group or organization will most likely be a Jew.
> 
> 
> This behavior follows the hebrew people no matter what country naively allows them to enter their land and set up shop.
> 
> After many years; eventually the indigenous people of the host country discover they are no longer in control of their nation, or their cultural destiny, and demand change. And drive the Jews out of their land. So the Jews seek another host country to give them refuge and start the process again.
> 
> This same senario has played out many times over many centuries..........



Unlike Sharia? Isn't more a lower aspect attributed to Human Nature to want to control and dominate? Don't we see is as the natural result even applied to Religion, Government, and Corporate interest who all want to control and dominate, as opposed to empower, at the lower levels, anyway? Isn't the urge to do this something each of us battle within ourselves, even?


----------



## Desperado

Why is it always the others fault?   If you as a group, have been persecuted for 2000 years and have been expelled from most of the countries you have been in, don't you have to ask yourself as a group,
What are we doing wrong?


----------



## Indofred

MHunterB said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> This we know, why is more interesting.
> From a Muslim point of view, many of the social conditions seem to apply to Muslim populations today.
> Perhaps an understanding of Jewish history can help us.
> 
> Even if it's no use, education is always worth some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that, especially the bold, is a very Jewish attitude.
Click to expand...


Interesting.
Perhaps DNA is a factor as my family were Jewish until around 1900.
We came from France with Billy the basher some time after 1066.
The reason we converted to Christianity is lost in time but I ended up as a Muslim for my own reasons.
I'll bet that shocks a few people but it is true.
I am not greedy but I do have a Jewish nose. I'm often mistaken for an Arab but I have been busted once.
That was a very clever lass in a Muslim uni I lectured at in Purwokerto.


----------



## RoccoR

Sunni Man,  _et al,_

I think you are a bit confused.  

This is not at all like the Warrior Gene _(MAO-A)_ or the God Gene _(VMAT-2)_. 

This is more related to the comparative analysis of other nation state leaders of the time and Human Motivation _(ie Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs)_. 



Sunni Man said:


> On another thread I once stated that greed was in the hebrew DNA.
> 
> (Avarice would have been a better word to use)
> 
> If you read the Torah it says that Abraham was the wealthiest man of his time; same with Soloman, King David, and other chosen people notables. So yes, it is in their psyche, if not their biology
> 
> That being said, the Jews have a pejorative tendency to put themselves in societal positions to control their host nations money and economy.


*(COMMENT)*

They may have been the wealthiest of people in their domain, but clearly not the wealthiest in all the realms.

Nor is it correct to say that they have a propensity to control the money, any more than the history of the Templars and money, or the British East Indian Company.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Sunni Man

The fall back position of the chosen people is that they are perpetual victims of the gentiles.

And blame it on a variety of reasons; envy, scapegoats, killing christ, self segregation, not eating pork, etc.

When in reality, the gentile peoples of the world have been the continual victims of Jewish behavior for centuries.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> On another thread I once stated that greed was in the hebrew DNA.
> 
> (Avarice would have been a better word to use)
> 
> If you read the Torah it says that Abraham was the wealthiest man of his time; same with Soloman, King David, and other chosen people notables. So yes, it is in their psyche, if not their biology
> 
> That being said, the Jews have a pejorative tendency to put themselves in societal positions to control their host nations money and economy.
> 
> It's been that way since Joseph was sold into slavey by his brothers and eventually ended up being Pharaohs head man in charge of Egypt's treasury.
> 
> 
> And you can see that behavior right here in the U.S.
> 
> Just look at the last names of the heads of the top financial institutions or the heads of the Federal Reserve.
> 
> 
> Anyway, once the "Chosen People" have an iron grip on their host nation's economy.
> 
> They start trying to destroy the customs and traditions of that nation to better position themselves. So they enter politics and the judicial system in order to help make the laws and give them even more power.
> 
> This behavior is easily evidenced right here in America. Just look at the leadership of any group advocating change of social morals and values; feminism, gay rights agenda, teachers unions, redefining marriage, etc. The heads of the advocating group or organization will most likely be a Jew.
> 
> 
> This behavior follows the hebrew people no matter what country naively allows them to enter their land and set up shop.
> 
> After many years; eventually the indigenous people of the host country discover they are no longer in control of their nation, or their cultural destiny, and demand change. And drive the Jews out of their land. So the Jews seek another host country to give them refuge and start the process again.
> 
> This same senario has played out many times over many centuries..........



As opposed the wealthy muslim sheiks and what not? They keep all the money and for that, they let sharia flourish, so that the poorer arabs can at least get their frustration out by beating their women as prescribed in the koran.


----------



## longknife

I think, in antiquity, I came from their monotheist belief in society that worshiped multiple gods. The priest of other religions felt threatened and did what they could to turn their followers against those who espoused different beliefs and would not bow to theirs.


----------



## varelse

Jews have always been a clannish people, sine the days of the twelve tribes. On the one hand, this leads to very strong communities; on the other hand, it sets them apart as an alien nation within whatever country they settle, which leads to suspicion and mistrust of these aliens who show no desire to become a part of the larger nation.

History led many Jews to become involved in finance and similar trades that did not require large plots of land or real property. Nobody likes bankers and they get blamed in times of economic distress.

Then you have their religious texts- Torah, Talmud, etc- with some of their more controversial laws regarding outsiders and nonbelievers.

Then the Catholic church decided to use the death of Jesus as propaganda for its own ends.



Bill Angel said:


> One interesting aspect of this topic is  relation between outbreaks of plague and persecution of the Jews.
> See Black Death Jewish persecutions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> It's from the spread of the plague that the association between Jews and rats originated.



Jews, like everyone else, would leave diseased cities. Those infected took the plague with them. 

Among these refugees, bands of Jews were a recognizable group.

The deepest roots of Zionism- going back to the conquest of Canaan- also further complicate things, as Jews have historically placed themselves above the rest of humanity.



reabhloideach said:


> i mean, look at the muslims in europe, theey are well on their way to becoming accepted after perhaps a generation.




Not really... Not under the surface.




Indofred said:


> I can accept DNA giving someone a large nose or  facial features that may well be common in a given group but I would  find it harder to accept that as a cause of greed.


start here:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Sociobiology-New-Synthesis-Twenty-Fifth-Anniversary/dp/0674002350]Sociobiology: The New Synthesis, Twenty-Fifth Anniversary Edition: Edward O. Wilson: 9780674002357: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]


----------



## sealadaigh

Desperado said:


> Why is it always the others fault?   If you as a group, have been persecuted for 2000 years and have been expelled from most of the countries you have been in, don't you have to ask yourself as a group,
> What are we doing wrong?



that is the beginning of a good, scientific approach to what is either the problem or the perceived problem. it is close to an objective approach.

i think you may find an answer in cultural anthropology, and mixed with other disciplines and you can do it without terms like "good" or "bad" but instead, what is the selective advantage for the culture to develope in this way and, perhaps, why has the culture failed to adapt wuth environmental or societal/social changes.


----------



## GHook93

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-



The answer is simple. Much like the Armenians in Ottoman Empire, the Jews are always a small, but very successful minority class. They work hard and make money as a group and they strikes a cord of envy with the majority (that turns into anger) that is not so successful as group. On top of that for the majority of their history their homeland was occupied by others Assyrians, Babloyians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks and British, so they had no state protecting them. Jews were persecuted throughout Europe for their small numbers and their identifiable success, esp in money-lending. Then toss in things like the black death, poverty etc and people look for a target to blame. The successful identifable minority is a good target. So stories emerge no matter how untrue they might be, like the blood libel for example.

Jewish persecution in ancient times, by the Egyptians (they enslaved many people and civilization throughout that time period enslaved many people) and by the Assyrians, Persians (who were good to the Jews), Greeks and Babloyians (all these were invading armies that conquered the subject people - which is common throughout ancient history) . 

Persecution by Arab/Muslim countries is even simpler, Arabs/Muslims have been xenophobic towards religious minorities from it's inception. Mohommad was a warlord jingoist that sought to spread Islam by the sword an in fact started the first muslim crusade (Caliphates) and took over the entire middle east, killing all those who didn't submit to the will of Islam. Jews, like Christians, were persecuted, because Islam dictates persecution of all non-Muslims!


----------



## ima

GHook93 said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is simple. Much like the Armenians in Ottoman Empire, the Jews are always a small, but very successful minority class. They work hard and make money as a group and they strikes a cord at the envy of the majority that is not so successful as group. On top of that for the majority of their history their homeland was occupied by others Assyrians, Babloyians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks and British, so they had no state protecting them. Jews were persecuted throughout Europe for their small numbers and their identifiable success, esp in money-lending. Then toss in things like the black death, poverty etc and people look for a target to blame. The successful identifable minority is a good target. So stories emerge no matter how untrue they might be, like the blood libel for example.
> 
> Jewish persecution in ancient times, by the Egyptians (they enslaved many people and civilization throughout that time period enslaved many people) and by the Assyrians, Persians (who were good to the Jews), Greeks and Babloyians (all these were invading armies that conquered the subject people - which is common throughout ancient history) .
> 
> Persecution by Arab/Muslim countries is even simpler, Arabs/Muslims have been xenophobic towards religious minorities from it's inception. Mohommad was a warlord jingoist that sought to spread Islam by the sword an in fact started the first muslim crusade (Caliphates) and took over the entire middle east, killing all those who didn't submit to the will of Islam. Jews, like Christians, were persecuted, because Islam dictates persecution of all non-Muslims!
Click to expand...

It's happened to other minorities as well, because humans are still not much more evolved then the caveman, just eat and conquer the weak. So the so called jewish persecution isn't unique to the Jews.


----------



## sealadaigh

varelse said:


> Jews have always been a clannish people, sine the days of the twelve tribes. On the one hand, this leads to very strong communities; on the other hand, it sets them apart as an alien nation within whatever country they settle, which leads to suspicion and mistrust of these aliens who show no desire to become a part of the larger nation.
> 
> History led many Jews to become involved in finance and similar trades that did not require large plots of land or real property. Nobody likes bankers and they get blamed in times of economic distress.
> 
> Then you have their religious texts- Torah, Talmud, etc- with some of their more controversial laws regarding outsiders and nonbelievers.
> 
> Then the Catholic church decided to use the death of Jesus as propaganda for its own ends.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Angel said:
> 
> 
> 
> One interesting aspect of this topic is  relation between outbreaks of plague and persecution of the Jews.
> See Black Death Jewish persecutions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> It's from the spread of the plague that the association between Jews and rats originated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jews, like everyone else, would leave diseased cities. Those infected took the plague with them.
> 
> Among these refugees, bands of Jews were a recognizable group.
> 
> The deepest roots of Zionism- going back to the conquest of Canaan- also further complicate things, as Jews have historically placed themselves above the rest of humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> i mean, look at the muslims in europe, theey are well on their way to becoming accepted after perhaps a generation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not really... Not under the surface.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can accept DNA giving someone a large nose or  facial features that may well be common in a given group but I would  find it harder to accept that as a cause of greed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> start here:
> [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Sociobiology-New-Synthesis-Twenty-Fifth-Anniversary/dp/0674002350]Sociobiology: The New Synthesis, Twenty-Fifth Anniversary Edition: Edward O. Wilson: 9780674002357: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]
Click to expand...


LOL...i was going to throw social biology into the mix when i mentioned cultural anthropology, but didn't want to get to edgey.

i think people have to take long, hard looks at things, such as attributing anti-semitism (if nthere really is such a thing to the extent being portrayed) to religion when it may have more to do with politics or culture.


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> The fall back position of the chosen people is that they are perpetual victims of the gentiles.
> 
> And blame it on a variety of reasons; envy, scapegoats, killing christ, self segregation, not eating pork, etc.
> 
> When in reality, the gentile peoples of the world have been the continual victims of Jewish behavior for centuries.



And what do you have besides your personal OPINION to support this contention?


----------



## Sunni Man

*109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*


                       YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

                         250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
                         415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
                         554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
                         561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
                         612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
                         642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
                         855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                         876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
                        1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
                        1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
                        1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
                        1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
                        1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
                        1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
                        1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
                        1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
                        1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
                        1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                        1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
                        1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
                        1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
                        1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
                        1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
                        1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
                        1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
                        1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
                        1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
                        1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
                        1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
                        1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
                        1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
                        1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
                        1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
                        1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
                        1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
                        1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
                        1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
                        1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
                        1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
                        1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
                        1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
                        1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
                        1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
                        1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
                        1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
                        1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
                        1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries


----------



## MHunterB

"Then you have their religious texts- Torah, Talmud, etc- with some of their more controversial laws regarding outsiders and nonbelievers."

Varelse, if one hasn't studied the texts IN CONTEXT, then the actual meanings are not going to be obvious.

I think you've unwittingly touched upon something there, though.  And that is that the PERCEPTION of 'what's really in those books we can't read' is what is taken as 'fact' by far too many people.  It takes time to learn a language, history, customs all thoroughly enough to put the ancient writings in context - AND it is also necessary to look at the 'official' religious interpretation given to the texts *by the Jewish People* to see what he actual ideas are.

I commonly see MANY distortions and gross inaccuracies within such 'secondhand' discussions purporting to be about Jewish belief and practice.  One of which was an earlier statement in this thread? about 'death penalty' offenses in Judaism.

It was obvious that the poster was completely oblivious to the restrictions placed on actually carrying out any death penalty by a Sanhedrin.....  I can't recall every single one off-hand but I can give you a few:
1) Two witnesses were required to have a)observed the commission of the crime, b)advised the accused that their action was a crime c) AND to have cited for the accused the CORRECT penalty.  (which means if they told him it was a 'hanging' offense when it was a 'stoning' one - he walks!)

2)  It's required to parade the accused through the streets before any attempted execution giving a synopsis of his crimes and the witnesses against him, and inviting the public to step forward with ANY new information or evidence which may possibly change the case. (Back to 'start' on the trial if anyone does respond)

3) The famous 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone' quote from Jesus relates to this one:  The 'stoning is not a mass mob scene, but each member of the court in a prescribed order (which I don't recall offhand) is to pick up and throw one stone.  IF *anyone* in the line-up sets the stone down and announces "I now have doubts about his guilt", the stoning is officially over (and the accused walks)

When these 'failsafes' are factored in, it begins to explain why a Sanhedrin which actually executed ONE person in its 7-year term was known as 'the bloody Sanhedrin'.

As an aside - I have read all manner of vile allegations about 'tayyiqua' and 'jihad' in Islam.  I have come to the conclusion that such noises are similar to the filth I have been seeing about 'chosen people' and suchlike.....


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni, that is not primary or direct 'evidence'.  You are *interpreting* from it to conclude 'the reason is in Jewish behavior'.

Christianity and Islam regarding themselves as 'universal' truths is a far more specific explanation for those actions.


----------



## Sunni Man

If I had a friend that got divorced. I would just say, "hey things happen"

Then he remarried, but it turned into another divorce. I'd think.....just picked the wrong girl to marry.

Now if he married a third, forth, and fifth time; all ending in divorce. 

Then I would start to think he must be the problem...... not the women he married.


Same with the Jews.

If they had only been expelled or driven out of only 2, 3, or 4 countries throughout history.

I wouldn't blame them....and just figure it was the gentiles problem.

But when you have the Jews tossed out of 109 countries.

Then there MUST be something the Jews are doing to cause the same reaction from people of various countries, with different cultures, languages, traditions, and even religions, kicking them out...........


----------



## GHook93

ima said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is simple. Much like the Armenians in Ottoman Empire, the Jews are always a small, but very successful minority class. They work hard and make money as a group and they strikes a cord at the envy of the majority that is not so successful as group. On top of that for the majority of their history their homeland was occupied by others Assyrians, Babloyians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks and British, so they had no state protecting them. Jews were persecuted throughout Europe for their small numbers and their identifiable success, esp in money-lending. Then toss in things like the black death, poverty etc and people look for a target to blame. The successful identifable minority is a good target. So stories emerge no matter how untrue they might be, like the blood libel for example.
> 
> Jewish persecution in ancient times, by the Egyptians (they enslaved many people and civilization throughout that time period enslaved many people) and by the Assyrians, Persians (who were good to the Jews), Greeks and Babloyians (all these were invading armies that conquered the subject people - which is common throughout ancient history) .
> 
> Persecution by Arab/Muslim countries is even simpler, Arabs/Muslims have been xenophobic towards religious minorities from it's inception. Mohommad was a warlord jingoist that sought to spread Islam by the sword an in fact started the first muslim crusade (Caliphates) and took over the entire middle east, killing all those who didn't submit to the will of Islam. Jews, like Christians, were persecuted, because Islam dictates persecution of all non-Muslims!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's happened to other minorities as well, because humans are still not much more evolved then the caveman, just eat and conquer the weak. So the so called jewish persecution isn't unique to the Jews.
Click to expand...


One of the few things you ever said with some truthfulness! What is unique of the Jewish people is how long they have survived without a homeland. Many many people like the Visgoth, Lombandis, Huns, Trojans, Mayans etc have come and gone from the earth, yet the Jews remain!


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> If I had a friend that got divorced. I would just say, "hey things happen"
> 
> Then he remarried, but it turned into another divorce. I'd think.....just picked the wrong girl to marry.
> 
> Now if he married a third, forth, and fifth time; all ending in divorce.
> 
> Then I would start to think he must be the problem...... not the women he married.
> 
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> If they had only been expelled or driven out of only 2, 3, or 4 countries throughout history.
> 
> I wouldn't blame them....and just figure it was the gentiles problem.
> 
> But when you have the Jews tossed out of 109 countries.
> 
> Then there MUST be something the Jews are doing to cause the same reaction from people of various countries, with different cultures, languages, traditions, and even religions, kicking them out...........


So maybe if they did like muslims, marry one. No good? Marry another. No good again? Marry a third? No good still? Geez, now you're STILL saddled with 3 no good wives, so you take a fourth. Guess what?


----------



## The Irish Ram

According to the Bible, since they are God's chosen people, it is a simple case of disobedience, actions to open the Jew's eyes, and the disbursement of the tribes in order to preserve the tribes, as God promised Abraham.  < That particular promise is a generational one. 
Had Hitler been able to get his hands on every Jew, he would have killed every Jew.
God disbursed them and God will bring them all home.  
Christ, the   Rabbi, will rule and reign from His home, Jerusalem.
and:



> Genesis 11:1
> And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech





> "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name of Yahweh, to serve him with one consent," Zephaniah 3:9.




Got Hebrew Rosetta Stone?


----------



## polarbear

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-



My opinion is that you are asking the wrong question, because you don`t have to be "Jewish" to be persecuted. I want to know why through the ages even today we like to make scapegoats out of entire groups, be they an ethnic, religious or political  affiliation and persecute them.
The last thing I worry about when I have a problem with somebody else is wondering if that person is Jewish. Jews are unique because they have no obvious visible or audible characteristics, such as accent or appearance. I`m German and  live on a First Nations Territory in Canada. It`s pretty obvious that I`m not native and just as obvious vice versa. Yet I feel more at home here than in my old hometown. 


I know lots of Jews in Winnipeg, but had no idea that they were Jews until  they purposely slipped in a few Yiddish words like "Mensch" when they cracked a joke, knowing that Germans have no trouble understanding Yiddish. 
But aside from that you would not know most Jews from any other Canadians unless they tell you that they are Jewish.
Except orthodox Jews who for some strange reasons are at odds with main-stream Jews. I think all these irrational phobias have a common root, it being that we rather blame and punish others for our own failures.
B.t.w. You would not believe the "politically incorrect" jokes I have heard from Jews about Jews.
It speaks well for anyone if they  can laugh about themselves. But imagine the bind I have been in as a German trying to figure out how hard I should laugh when they totally cracked me up. Some shopkeepers knew after a while full well who my biological father was and what my home town is, but none of them have ever held that against me...and that told me a lot more about Jews than any literature could.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S73321%2C_Gottlob_Berger.jpg/220px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S73321%2C_Gottlob_Berger.jpg






I love their delis but more so their sense of humor...second only to British Humor


----------



## Lipush

Sunni Man said:


> If I had a friend that got divorced. I would just say, "hey things happen"
> 
> Then he remarried, but it turned into another divorce. I'd think.....just picked the wrong girl to marry.
> 
> Now if he married a third, forth, and fifth time; all ending in divorce.
> 
> Then I would start to think he must be the problem...... not the women he married.
> 
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> If they had only been expelled or driven out of only 2, 3, or 4 countries throughout history.
> 
> I wouldn't blame them....and just figure it was the gentiles problem.
> 
> But when you have the Jews tossed out of 109 countries.
> 
> Then there MUST be something the Jews are doing to cause the same reaction from people of various countries, with different cultures, languages, traditions, and even religions, kicking them out...........



Because the Jews had/have separated cultures, and at times acted and looked differently.

That scared people.

simple.


----------



## Indofred

Sunni Man said:


> If I had a friend that got divorced. I would just say, "hey things happen"
> 
> Then he remarried, but it turned into another divorce. I'd think.....just picked the wrong girl to marry.
> 
> Now if he married a third, forth, and fifth time; all ending in divorce.
> 
> Then I would start to think he must be the problem...... not the women he married.
> 
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> If they had only been expelled or driven out of only 2, 3, or 4 countries throughout history.
> 
> I wouldn't blame them....and just figure it was the gentiles problem.
> 
> But when you have the Jews tossed out of 109 countries.
> 
> Then there MUST be something the Jews are doing to cause the same reaction from people of various countries, with different cultures, languages, traditions, and even religions, kicking them out...........



The thread was created to explore this in a serious manner.
It's clear there have been problems but why is what I want to explore.
The answer to this may well help all minorities avoid problems in the future.

This is not a hate fest or intended to have a go at anyone.
Please don't send the thread that direction.


----------



## Sunni Man

Lipush said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I had a friend that got divorced. I would just say, "hey things happen"
> 
> Then he remarried, but it turned into another divorce. I'd think.....just picked the wrong girl to marry.
> 
> Now if he married a third, forth, and fifth time; all ending in divorce.
> 
> Then I would start to think he must be the problem...... not the women he married.
> 
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> If they had only been expelled or driven out of only 2, 3, or 4 countries throughout history.
> 
> I wouldn't blame them....and just figure it was the gentiles problem.
> 
> But when you have the Jews tossed out of 109 countries.
> 
> Then there MUST be something the Jews are doing to cause the same reaction from people of various countries, with different cultures, languages, traditions, and even religions, kicking them out...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because the Jews had/have separated cultures, and at times acted and looked differently.
> 
> That scared people.
Click to expand...

Nope.

Many other people dressed funny with separated cultures and didn't make people want to attack them.

Try again..........


----------



## PaulS1950

Jews - whether you are speaking about their ethnicity or their religion (sometimes it is different) they are just people. I lived in a "Jewish neighborhood" for over thirty years. I have worked with Jews and partied with them. They are just people. One man worked at Jack-in-the-Box, one good friend worked as an engineerfor a large aircraft company like my dad. Another was a wood-worker - a cabinet maker. None of the Jews I knew were bankers or financial experts and none of them were the least bit controlling. They were good neighbors, and very giving people. Since I moved, I have missed them.


----------



## Indofred

CDZ = Insults and flaming are bad news.
I want this to be a good thread, not a hate fest.

Peace, love and, in this case, understanding.


----------



## SAYIT

novasteve said:


> There was an upswing in antisemitism after Oliver Twist came out.



Evidently it doesn't take much.


----------



## SAYIT

Sunni Man said:


> *109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*
> 
> 
> YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE
> 
> 250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
> 415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
> 554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
> 561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
> 612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
> 642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
> 855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
> 1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
> 1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
> 1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
> 1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
> 1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
> 1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
> 1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
> 1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
> 1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
> 1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
> 1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
> 1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
> 1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
> 1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
> 1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
> 1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
> 1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
> 1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
> 1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
> 1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
> 1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
> 1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
> 1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
> 1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
> 1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
> 1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
> 1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
> 1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
> 1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
> 1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
> 1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
> 1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
> 1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
> 1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
> 1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
> 1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
> 1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
> 1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries




Source?


----------



## varelse

MHunterB said:


> "Then you have their religious texts- Torah, Talmud, etc- with some of their more controversial laws regarding outsiders and nonbelievers."
> 
> Varelse, if one hasn't studied the texts IN CONTEXT, then the actual meanings are not going to be obvious.



The context being trhe genocidal conquest of the lands they'd invaded?

Let us ask the Middionites, Hittites, Jesubited, and Moabites about the context.

Oh wait, we can't, because they were wiped out in a total genocide by the Jews whose actions you seek to defend. And yet... I have no doubt you're far less eager to forgive and explain away the Germans for doing the exact same thing. 

Do you support or oppose the 'Break the Bones' strategy in Palestine? What about the American's ethnic cleansing of the lands under Jackson?



MHunterB said:


> Sunni, that is not primary or direct 'evidence'.   You are *interpreting* from it to conclude 'the reason is in Jewish  behavior'.
> 
> Christianity and Islam regarding themselves as 'universal' truths is a far more specific explanation for those actions.



They got that idea from Judaism, from which they splintered.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I had a friend that got divorced. I would just say, "hey things happen"
> 
> Then he remarried, but it turned into another divorce. I'd think.....just picked the wrong girl to marry.
> 
> Now if he married a third, forth, and fifth time; all ending in divorce.
> 
> Then I would start to think he must be the problem...... not the women he married.
> 
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> If they had only been expelled or driven out of only 2, 3, or 4 countries throughout history.
> 
> I wouldn't blame them....and just figure it was the gentiles problem.
> 
> But when you have the Jews tossed out of 109 countries.
> 
> Then there MUST be something the Jews are doing to cause the same reaction from people of various countries, with different cultures, languages, traditions, and even religions, kicking them out...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because the Jews had/have separated cultures, and at times acted and looked differently.
> 
> That scared people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Many other people dressed funny with separated cultures and didn't make people want to attack them.
> 
> Try again..........
Click to expand...

It's because religions are made to separate everyone into little groups, and then teach that the others are bad, and some teach you to kill the non-believers. Isn't that right sunni?


----------



## editec

reabhloideach said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> S*o, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?*
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *xenophobia &#8194; *
> 
> 
> xen·o·pho·bi·a  [zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-]  Show IPA
> noun
> an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> YOu can look for specific reasons specific to Jews, of course, but the real answer is the above.
> 
> Peasants world-wide fear strangers.
> 
> And if those strangers move in and aren't planning on leaving?
> 
> Well, their fear inevitably becomes hatred.
> 
> And strangers in the midst of an alien culture become very useful scapegoats that the masters can use to foist off the blame when things do south.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> most "strangers" eventually assimilate and become integral and working parts of the mainstream culture. jews are not particularly remakable in appearance or any other physical aspects that would make them stand out as strangers in many of the places they have been shunned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But, and here IS a problem that to some extent has always plagued Jews...they do NOT assimilate to the degree that most people do when they migrate to another land.  Now in some cases, that's because they are not allowed to assimilate, and in others it is because they do not want to assimilate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i mean, look at the muslims in europe, theey are well on their way to becoming accepted after perhaps a generation but jews are still being discriminated against after over 2000 years, or so they claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have my doubts that Moslems are assimilating all that well, too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> could it be their culture? cultures inculcate certain behaviours and values among its members.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of _COURSE_ its about culture.
> 
> Jewishness isn't so much about a race of people as it is about the culture those people cleave to.
Click to expand...


----------



## Indofred

Sunni Man said:


> Chosen people's agenda throughout history.
> 
> 1) Find a host country that will accept them and set up shop.
> 
> 2) Start a banking or financial system that will put them in control of the host countries money.
> 
> 3) Bleed the host country dry until it's economically anemic and close to death.
> 
> 4) After being expelled from host country by out raged citizens.
> 
> 5) Flee to new host country and begin parasitic process on it's economy.



That appears to be unhelpful crap but there may be a level of truth in it.
In the middle ages, Christianity didn't allow money lending so Jews were used to fill that position in society.
Money lenders are never popular people so there may well be something in that position.

My grade nine practical exams are tomorrow with one more set in two weeks. With  bit of luck, I'll be able to find time to do this properly.
In the meantime, perhaps we could try to keep the thread clean so we can take a serious look at this.
Sunni, dude, I see where you're coming from but that bull is just going to get the thread closed again and that would be a great pity after I fought so hard to get it back on the board.

@ editec

Your position may have worth. 
There are serious problems with Muslims refusing to assimilate themselves into some societies.
I can't comment on the situation in the states but I have seen the problem in England.
There do seem to be parallels.
Perhaps exploring one can assist the other.

One sad thing I have noted in this thread is, the total lack of some posters to allow it to develop as a serious topic, preferring instead to just mouth off at the supposed enemy.

Frankly, I don't see why a Muslim and a Jew can't be friends if it wasn't for the stupidity of the extremes on both sides who just want to attack each other.
Perhaps this thread is turning into a miniature of the Muslim and Jewish worlds.


----------



## Indofred

PaulS1950 said:


> Jews - whether you are speaking about their ethnicity or their religion (sometimes it is different) they are just people. I lived in a "Jewish neighborhood" for over thirty years. I have worked with Jews and partied with them. They are just people. One man worked at Jack-in-the-Box, one good friend worked as an engineerfor a large aircraft company like my dad. Another was a wood-worker - a cabinet maker. None of the Jews I knew were bankers or financial experts and none of them were the least bit controlling. They were good neighbors, and very giving people. Since I moved, I have missed them.



I have met quite a lot of Jews, mostly Israeli. Excect the black coat and daft ringlet brigade in London (who refused to serve me a pizza because I wasn't one of their mob), I've liked every one of them, bar one who was a nasty little cow.
Same goes for Muslims. I know rather a lot and like most except a few that were over the top nut jobs.
I must be one of the few posters on this board who has actually met terrorist murderers.
Oddly enough, they were friendly to me but only after they realised I was a Muslim.
They laughed, joked and often invited me into their shop for a cup of tea. Sadly they also murdered people as I found out from a friend a few days before they were shot in Java after the Jakarta hotel bombing.

There is, in my opinion, no need to be anti Jewish or anti Muslim, just anti extremist of any and all types.

Anyway, that's a little off topic as I don't want to discuss anything modern. Too many haters to bother even looking at that stuff. No real point talking about Hitler, he was clearly mad and using the first minority he saw to blame for political problems.
In his case, it could have been anyone but Jews were handy at the time.


----------



## Indofred

This isn't an anti Jew fest, I want it to be a serious look at history.
So, research and link to prove your point, please.


----------



## varelse




----------



## SAYIT

Indofred said:


> This isn't an anti Jew fest, I want it to be a serious look at history.
> So, research and link to prove your point, please.



I believe your answer can be found in the tone of the responses. Among the thoughtful, informed (in varying degrees) posts you find drooling, ignorant, knuckle-draggin' haters. They don't really know why they hate, they just do. Gather enough of 'em in one beer hall, give 'em matching brown shirts and some beer and cut 'em loose on the local minority. 'Nuff said?


----------



## GHook93

GHook93 said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is simple. Much like the Armenians in Ottoman Empire, the Jews are always a small, but very successful minority class. They work hard and make money as a group and they strikes a cord of envy with the majority (that turns into anger) that is not so successful as group. On top of that for the majority of their history their homeland was occupied by others Assyrians, Babloyians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks and British, so they had no state protecting them. Jews were persecuted throughout Europe for their small numbers and their identifiable success, esp in money-lending. Then toss in things like the black death, poverty etc and people look for a target to blame. The successful identifable minority is a good target. So stories emerge no matter how untrue they might be, like the blood libel for example.
> 
> Jewish persecution in ancient times, by the Egyptians (they enslaved many people and civilization throughout that time period enslaved many people) and by the Assyrians, Persians (who were good to the Jews), Greeks and Babloyians (all these were invading armies that conquered the subject people - which is common throughout ancient history) .
> 
> Persecution by Arab/Muslim countries is even simpler, Arabs/Muslims have been xenophobic towards religious minorities from it's inception. Mohommad was a warlord jingoist that sought to spread Islam by the sword an in fact started the first muslim crusade (Caliphates) and took over the entire middle east, killing all those who didn't submit to the will of Islam. Jews, like Christians, were persecuted, because Islam dictates persecution of all non-Muslims!
Click to expand...


Summary of my response:  Jews lost their homeland to conquest. They continued to return, but the Romans finally removed them nearly completely (although Jewish communities remained throughout history) and changed the name of the country. They were scattered across the globe, mostly to Europe, Russia and the Middle East. In each of these areas there will few minorities, religious or ethnic. The only true minority were the Jews. The Jews were a minority that stuck out. First, with their economic success as a group, esp in lending (many Christians and Muslims didn't believe in lending as a god allowable trade). Second, with their ties to death of christ. Third, to their ALWAYS tiny numbers in every country they remained in. 

(1) Their economic success made they the source of envy and jealous, but also an identifiable minority within he community.
(2) Their tiny numbers made the vulnerable and a contingency the governments carried little about.
(3) Their ties to Christ's death made them easily suspectable to outrageous rumors, like the blood libel, control of media, banks and the government, Jews poison the wells etc.
(4) The lack of other identifiable minority groups, made them perfect excuses when things went bad.

Combine these four aspects and you have a reliable target to go after when things go bad like Depressions, plagues or wars!


----------



## varelse

What homeland? Canaan, which they took by conquest?

Or is it 'different' when Jews do it? Let me guess, that's just how [ethnic] nationalism works...


----------



## AmyNation

A reminder of CDZ rules....Civil discourse is the focus here, regardless of topic matter. Constructive criticism and debate is the tone. *No negative repping. *No insulting, name calling, or putting down other posters. Consider it a lesson in Civics.


----------



## CMike

The Irish Ram said:


> According to the Bible, since they are God's chosen people, it is a simple case of disobedience, actions to open the Jew's eyes, and the disbursement of the tribes in order to preserve the tribes, as God promised Abraham.  < That particular promise is a generational one.
> Had Hitler been able to get his hands on every Jew, he would have killed every Jew.
> God disbursed them and God will bring them all home.
> Christ, the   Rabbi, will rule and reign from His home, Jerusalem.
> and:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genesis 11:1
> And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name of Yahweh, to serve him with one consent," Zephaniah 3:9.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Got Hebrew Rosetta Stone?
Click to expand...


That may be your vatican. Jerusalem belongs to the jews.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> Staying on topic.......
> 
> The OP asks a question, "Why so much hatred towards the Jews"?
> 
> Jews claim it is because of envy, different clothes, different religion and dietary habits, usury, and accusations of being the killers of Jesus.
> 
> While others say it's because they are seditious and underhanded in their financial dealings. And work non stop to destroy their host countries morals and values.
> 
> So it boils down as to who are the true "victims"?
> 
> The jews?...... or the gentiles that allow them to reside in their country??.........


Why don't you tell us why muslims hate jews so much? I'd be curious to know.


----------



## oldfart

My favorite hobby is reading history.  I think that a large part of the explanation is that early Israelites and later Jews were not persecuted more than many other ethnic groups, but they possessed the twin characteristics of recording and transmitting their history and surviving to keep their culture and history alive.  For example, the history of the native inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere is primarily a gruesome tale of enslavement, genocide, and exploitation on a scale hard to comprehend.  The Spanish effort to destroy all writings and culture of the "heathens" left little for later generations to interpret.  Only a handful of Mayan codices survive.  

That the same did not happen to Talmud is a tribute to the dispersion and tenacity of Jewish scholars in maintaining a culture over centuries while many others disappeared and were forgotten.  

You see, we only pay attention to the history of the survivors.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> ^^^^



C'mon, we'd all like to know why muslims hate jews so much. Islam the religion of peace and all that...


----------



## AmyNation

Muslims don't hate Jews. There are a lot of Muslims in the world, and making broad brush statements about all of them is silly.


----------



## ima

AmyNation said:


> Muslims don't hate Jews. There are a lot of Muslims in the world, and making broad brush statements about all of them is silly.



Must be why we see so many muslims marrying jews.


----------



## AmyNation

ima said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims don't hate Jews. There are a lot of Muslims in the world, and making broad brush statements about all of them is silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must be why we see so many muslims marrying jews.
Click to expand...


People who are take their religion very seriously rarely marry someone of a different faith.


----------



## Coyote

*Reminder:  The topic is "A serious question about Jewish history"

It's not about Muslims hating Jews, it's  not about Jews hating Muslims, it's not about whether Jews or Gentiles are "victims" of each other.

So...lets try to stay on topic because straying to far will probably end up breaking CDZ rules with the extreme emotions that result.*


----------



## Sunni Man

The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.

It was a product of cause and effect.

Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........


----------



## Coyote

Sunni Man said:


> The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.
> *
> It was a product of cause and effect.*
> 
> Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........



Not necessarily.

It's often a combination of factors that may not have a legitimate basis.

For example - historically - you have a myth perpetrated through out Christian history that Jews killed Christ.  Christianity arose as one of the dominant world religions and got to control the narrative in most of the civilized world.  In addition, church and state were the same.

Once a myth becomes accepted popular "truth" it's extremely difficult to dispell.

It doesn't help that Jews had a reputation for keeping to themselves in their own enclaves (and, of course, the laws of many countries severely restricted where they could live, whether they could buy land (usually not), and what occupations they could work at encouraged that insularity and prevented assimilation).  When you have a group like that, a minority -  it's easy to scapegoat them, to label them secretive and sinister and spin concpiracy theories.  Since most occupations were barred to Jews, many functioned as money lenders, an occupation that is often viewed as disreputable or immoral and fuels more hate.  And every society needs a scapegoat.


----------



## editec

The premise that Jews were hated _through out history_ is a tad overstated.


----------



## Sunni Man

I don't buy the scapegoat or the christ killer theory.

Dozens of countries have expelled the jews and not all were christian.

Some were pagan, muslim, and other religion based........


----------



## Coyote

editec said:


> The premise that Jews were hated _through out history_ is a tad overstated.



That is true...and for large periods of history they got along fine with Islam - the two faiths have a lot in common.

I think some of the "hate" has to do with conversions - both Islam and Christianity allow it and have forced it on other religions such as with Jews who typically have resisted.


----------



## Coyote

Sunni Man said:


> I don't buy the scapegoat or the christ killer theory.
> 
> Dozens of countries have expelled the jews and not all were christian.
> 
> Some were pagan, muslim, and other religion based........



I think the Christ killer was part of it - I think another part had to do with conversions.  At different times in history - Christian countries expelled Jews and Muslims and likewise, Islamic countries expelled Jews and Christians - it wasn't just Jews.  But Jews never had a country where they were the dominant religion that they could go to.  I don't know about other religions - I haven't seen any references to them.


----------



## Sunni Man

Coyote said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't buy the scapegoat or the christ killer theory.
> 
> Dozens of countries have expelled the jews and not all were christian.
> 
> Some were pagan, muslim, and other religion based........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Christ killer was part of it - I think another part had to do with conversions.  At different times in history - Christian countries expelled Jews and Muslims and likewise, Islamic countries expelled Jews and Christians - it wasn't just Jews.  But Jews never had a country where they were the dominant religion that they could go to.  I don't know about other religions - I haven't seen any references to them.
Click to expand...

Christian countries have expelled muslims and jews for centuries.

But there was never an official expulsion of christians or jews from any muslim country.

If fact, most jews left arab lands only after the establishment of the state of Israel in1948


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.
> 
> It was a product of cause and effect.
> 
> Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........



So what is it about Jews that you hate so much? Maybe that will illuminate why they've been so hated throughout history as you claim, because I don't see it. I see you singling out Jews as usual. Plenty of people/religions/races have been "hated" as you say by others. .


----------



## Coyote

Sunni Man said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't buy the scapegoat or the christ killer theory.
> 
> Dozens of countries have expelled the jews and not all were christian.
> 
> Some were pagan, muslim, and other religion based........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Christ killer was part of it - I think another part had to do with conversions.  At different times in history - Christian countries expelled Jews and Muslims and likewise, Islamic countries expelled Jews and Christians - it wasn't just Jews.  But Jews never had a country where they were the dominant religion that they could go to.  I don't know about other religions - I haven't seen any references to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Christian countries have expelled muslims and jews for centuries.
> 
> But there was never an official expulsion of christians or jews from any muslim country.
Click to expand...


What's "official" - sometimes a de-facto expulsion is no different than an "official" one - for example, in wikipedia:


> With the November 1947 declaration of United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, *severe anti-Jewish pogroms with massive casualties erupted across the Arab World*. Arab pogroms against Jews in Aden and Syria were particularly violent.[citation needed] The violence prompted a severe increase in Jewish exodus, with the Aleppo Jewish community deteriorating into decline and soon after the pogrom half the city's Jewish population had left.[20] In 1948, the violence had spread to Egypt, Morocco and Iraq as well, practically covering all Arab countries.[citation needed] At the same time, independent Arab countries began to encourage Jewish emigration to Israel.[21][22][23]
> 
> *In Libya, Jews were deprived of citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized. Those Jews who were forced to emigrate were not allowed to take their property.* From 1948 to 1949, the Israeli government secretly airlifted 50,000 Jews from Yemen and from 1950 to 1952, 130,000 Jews were airlifted from Iraq. From 1949 to 1951, 30,000 Jews fled Libya to Israel. In these cases over 90% of the Jewish population opted to leave, despite the necessity of leaving their property behind.[24]
> 
> *In total it is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were forced out or fled from their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s*. Some place the emigration peak to a slightly earlier time window of 1944 to 1964, when some 700,000 Jews moved to Israel from Arab countries and* were dispossessed of nearly their entire property*.[25]
> 
> A body representing the Jewish refugees, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimated in 2006, that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued at more than $100 billion, later revising their estimate in 2007 to $300 billion. They also estimated Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel).[3][9][26][27] estimated by Sidney Zabludoff to be at minimum $700 million in period prices and $6 billion today.[9] The organization asserts that a major cause of the Jewish exodus was a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.[28] In 2007, a Jewish advocacy group JJAC (Justice for Jews from Arab Countries) has too alleged that Arab League members formulated a coordinated policy to expel or force the departure of the Jewish population.[29][30][31]



and



> Middle Ages
> 
> 
> During early Islam, Leon Poliakov writes, Jews enjoyed great privileges, and their communities prospered. There was no legislation or social barriers preventing them from conducting commercial activities. Many Jews migrated to areas newly conquered by Muslims and established communities there. The vizier of Baghdad entrusted his capital with Jewish bankers. The Jews were put in charge of certain parts of maritime and slave trade. Siraf, the principal port of the caliphate in the 10th century, had a Jewish governor.[11]
> 
> Since the 11th century, there have been instances of pogroms against Jews.[12] Examples include the 1066 Granada massacre, the razing of the entire Jewish quarter in the Andalucian city of Granada.[13] In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages,[14] and in other Arab lands including Egypt,[15] Syria.[16] and Yemen[17] Jewish population was confined to segregated quarters, or mellahs, in Morocco beginning from the 15th century. In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.[18]
> 
> *The Almohads, who had taken control of much of Islamic Iberia by 1172, were far more fundamentalist in outlook than the Almoravides, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Jews and Christians were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain*.[19] Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, some Jews, such as the family of Maimonides, fled south and east to the more tolerant Muslim lands, while others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms.[20][21]
> 
> In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.[22][23]





> If fact, most jews left arab lands only after the establishment of the state of Israel in1948



That's partly due to the expulsions don't you think?


----------



## Indofred

varelse said:


>



Tell me about it.
I wanted a serious discussion about hate of a group over a couple of thousand years and nothing to do with the last hundred or so.
History often supplies clues or solutions to modern problems but, some people hate so much, they aren't interested in understanding, just hate, misery and killing.

Just in case anyone isn't clear:
I dislike Israel's government but have no problem with ANY religious group at all, including Jews.
After all, why should I? Jews are guilty of nothing, only some Jews are guilty of some things. Pretty much the same applies to Muslims and every other religious group.
So many in each group deny or excuse the idiot end of our own people because they just want hate to continue.
South Africa had The Truth and Reconciliation Commission after their daft period of history.
Perhaps a group of us on here could start out own.

However, some sparks of intelligence have lightened up the darkness that this thread has become and it's possible there may be a start.

I'm pretty sure the mods are keeping an eye on this thread so, with that in mind, I would request offenders are stopped by whatever means so the thread be allowed to develop in the way I'd hoped.


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> varelse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me about it.
> I wanted a serious discussion about hate of a group over a couple of thousand years and nothing to do with the last hundred or so.
> History often supplies clues or solutions to modern problems but, some people hate so much, they aren't interested in understanding, just hate, misery and killing.
> 
> Just in case anyone isn't clear:
> I dislike Israel's government but have no problem with ANY religious group at all, including Jews.
> After all, why should I? Jews are guilty of nothing, only some Jews are guilty of some things. Pretty much the same applies to Muslims and every other religious group.
> So many in each group deny or excuse the idiot end of our own people because they just want hate to continue.
> South Africa had The Truth and Reconciliation Commission after their daft period of history.
> Perhaps a group of us on here could start out own.
> 
> However, some sparks of intelligence have lightened up the darkness that this thread has become and it's possible there may be a start.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the mods are keeping an eye on this thread so, with that in mind, I would request offenders are stopped by whatever means so the thread be allowed to develop in the way I'd hoped.
Click to expand...

Fred, it's pretty simple, they've been "hated" because they've always been a minority wherever they were. As is almost every minority everywhere, like I said, nothing exceptional over Jews being hated. Every country has its hated minorities, in the US, it's muslims, used to be beaners, before that used to be blacks, before that used to be indians.


----------



## Indofred

SAYIT said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't an anti Jew fest, I want it to be a serious look at history.
> So, research and link to prove your point, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe your answer can be found in the tone of the responses. Among the thoughtful, informed (in varying degrees) posts you find drooling, ignorant, knuckle-draggin' haters. They don't really know why they hate, they just do. Gather enough of 'em in one beer hall, give 'em matching brown shirts and some beer and cut 'em loose on the local minority. 'Nuff said?
Click to expand...


It's clear there are blind haters out there and, sadly, people like that will always be around.
I hope to enlighten the people (on all sides of the modern argument) but no one can let someone see if that person doesn't want to open their eyes.

In the UK, there is a nasty little bigot who goes by the name, George Galloway.
He runs a pseudo political party known as "respect" but he's just a power, sex and cash junkie who'll do anything to keep himself in the headlines to keep his pockets lined with talk show cash.
He claims to support anti racism and respect to all but he's really after the cash.
His stupidity is supposed to support Muslims but the truth is, his blind  hate simply makes things worse.

The same goes for all those who act the way that idiot does - hate damages the hater more than his target.
Have an example of his respect for all.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruLWGW4-IKU]George Galloway explains debate walkout - YouTube[/ame]

We see the same here.


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> Why don't you tell us why muslims hate jews so much? I'd be curious to know.



Because:
a - Muslims don't hate Jews; some Muslims hate Jews
b - It's nothing to do with the thread

What has been suggested, many times, is Jews are targeted because of stereotypes about them getting rich off the misery of the general population.

BBC News - Payday lenders told to improve by OFT

"Payday lenders" provide a service to those who can't get loans elsewhere but provide a 'service' that is highly unpopular.

If enough members of the Jewish groups (before any given historical event) were engaged in this sort of work, it may well explain where the majority were targeted.
Add the suggestions, Jews lived in enclaves, looked different and dressed differently to the local majority and we have a hypothesis.



ima said:


> Fred, it's pretty simple, they've been "hated" because they've always been a minority wherever they were. As is almost every minority everywhere, like I said, nothing exceptional over Jews being hated. Every country has its hated minorities, in the US, it's muslims, used to be beaners, before that used to be blacks, before that used to be indians.



That may well hold some truth but, for that to be a total explanation, all other minority in similar positions must be proven to have the same problems.

I know Gypsies have been far less than popular for a very long time but have they had an equal number of problems, pro rata?

Gypsies: A Persecuted Race : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota

Seems there may be a simple explanation as far as the interaction between non Christians and the Christian church goes.

So we have a theory in progress as far as Christian areas go.
The church was clearly very powerful so, if the established church didn't like you, you were basically buggered.

Question is, can we prove or disprove this theory with research into the subject?


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you tell us why muslims hate jews so much? I'd be curious to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because:
> a - Muslims don't hate Jews; some Muslims hate Jews
> b - It's nothing to do with the thread
> 
> What has been suggested, many times, is Jews are targeted because of stereotypes about them getting rich off the misery of the general population.
> 
> BBC News - Payday lenders told to improve by OFT
> 
> "Payday lenders" provide a service to those who can't get loans elsewhere but provide a 'service' that is highly unpopular.
> 
> If enough members of the Jewish groups (before any given historical event) were engaged in this sort of work, it may well explain where the majority were targeted.
> Add the suggestions, Jews lived in enclaves, looked different and dressed differently to the local majority and we have a hypothesis.
> 
> 
> 
> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fred, it's pretty simple, they've been "hated" because they've always been a minority wherever they were. As is almost every minority everywhere, like I said, nothing exceptional over Jews being hated. Every country has its hated minorities, in the US, it's muslims, used to be beaners, before that used to be blacks, before that used to be indians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may well hold some truth but, for that to be a total explanation, all other minority in similar positions must be proven to have the same problems.
> 
> I know Gypsies have been far less than popular for a very long time but have they had an equal number of problems, pro rata?
> 
> Gypsies: A Persecuted Race : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota
> 
> Seems there may be a simple explanation as far as the interaction between non Christians and the Christian church goes.
> 
> So we have a theory in progress as far as Christian areas go.
> The church was clearly very powerful so, if the established church didn't like you, you were basically buggered.
> 
> Question is, can we prove or disprove this theory with research into the subject?
Click to expand...

Sunni has a deep hatred for Jews, it's obvious by his posts. He probably wishes he were one, instead of what he is (if I post what he is, I'll inexplicably get banned, go figure). 
Loan sharking isn't exceptional to the Jews either. But if you're looking for a separate reason for the Jews as a minority and why they got hosed so many times, it's probably because they are a racist minority, very closed to gentiles. And as a racist minority, that can rub a majority the wrong way, especially when the majority is trying to be racist towards a minority that is thumbing their own racist noses at them.


----------



## varelse

AmyNation said:


> A reminder of CDZ rules....Civil discourse is the focus here, regardless of topic matter. Constructive criticism and debate is the tone. *No negative repping. *No insulting, name calling, or putting down other posters. Consider it a lesson in Civics.


Does the no-neg rule apply to those clearly trolling an otherwise reasonable discussion? 



oldfart said:


> My favorite hobby is reading history.  I think  that a large part of the explanation is that early Israelites and later  Jews were not persecuted more than many other ethnic groups, but they  possessed the twin characteristics of recording and transmitting their  history and surviving to keep their culture and history alive.  For  example, the history of the native inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere  is primarily a gruesome tale of enslavement, genocide, and exploitation  on a scale hard to comprehend.  The Spanish effort to destroy all  writings and culture of the "heathens" left little for later generations  to interpret.  Only a handful of Mayan codices survive.
> 
> That the same did not happen to Talmud is a tribute to the dispersion  and tenacity of Jewish scholars in maintaining a culture over centuries  while many others disappeared and were forgotten.
> 
> You see, we only pay attention to the history of the survivors.



+1 

Look also at the history of the Christian suppression of European folk religion for another example. This might be the most crucial part of the picture. It seems we remember the suffering of Jews more than those of many other groups, in large part because of their ability to keep their records and collective recollection intact. I think the fact that Christianity and Islam share Jewish roots might also play a part in Western culture tending to remember the Jews, whether sympathizing with or demonizing them at any given time.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-



Several reasons actually, and most of them come from religious bias.

First, there's that thing in the Bible where God told Abraham that his line would be blessed, and his descendants (the Jews) would be God's Chosen People.

Then...............there was the whole crucifixion of Jesus that the Romans managed to hang the blame for on the Jewish community.

And finally.............there are lots of rules that the Jews follow that some of us may find to be different, one of which was cleanliness which is why the Jewish population fared better than their European counterparts when the Black Death came.  Many Christians attributed the Jewish community doing better than everyone else to witchcraft, when in reality, it was just that they took better care of their communities and kept them clean.


----------



## ABikerSailor

And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.


----------



## Intense

Indofred said:


> varelse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me about it.
> I wanted a serious discussion about hate of a group over a couple of thousand years and nothing to do with the last hundred or so.
> History often supplies clues or solutions to modern problems but, some people hate so much, they aren't interested in understanding, just hate, misery and killing.
> 
> Just in case anyone isn't clear:
> I dislike Israel's government but have no problem with ANY religious group at all, including Jews.
> After all, why should I? Jews are guilty of nothing, only some Jews are guilty of some things. Pretty much the same applies to Muslims and every other religious group.
> So many in each group deny or excuse the idiot end of our own people because they just want hate to continue.
> South Africa had The Truth and Reconciliation Commission after their daft period of history.
> Perhaps a group of us on here could start out own.
> 
> However, some sparks of intelligence have lightened up the darkness that this thread has become and it's possible there may be a start.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the mods are keeping an eye on this thread so, with that in mind, I would request offenders are stopped by whatever means so the thread be allowed to develop in the way I'd hoped.
Click to expand...


*If the Thread should fail here, the offer is still open to start a mirror thread in a more fitting forum, which willow for the branching out on topic, the venting of strong feelings, and light Moderation. We are being patient with you here, and letting some slide. *


----------



## Intense

ABikerSailor said:


> And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.


You know throughout history, Hebrew and Arab blood has been mixed. To me it boils down to the blessings, no matter who you are, for right action, V.S. human Nature, which at the primal stages generally is at war with the providence of others.


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.


Nope, that Isaac was the chosen one is not an issue with muslims.

Because the Quran acknowledges that Allah's blessing was on Isaac who became the patriarch of the tribes of Israel.

btw The Torah says the Abraham took the handmaiden Hagar as his wife.........


----------



## ABikerSailor

Sunni Man said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, that Isaac was the chosen one is not an issue with muslims.
> 
> Because the Quran acknowledges that Allah's blessing was on Isaac who became the patriarch of the tribes of Israel.
> 
> btw The Torah says the Abraham took the handmaiden Hagar as his wife.........
Click to expand...


Ummm.............you DID notice that I'd called Sarah Abraham's "first wife" right?

That would imply that Hagar was also his wife, just not his first one.


----------



## Indofred

Intense said:


> *If the Thread should fail here, the offer is still open to start a mirror thread in a more fitting forum, which willow for the branching out on topic, the venting of strong feelings, and light Moderation. We are being patient with you here, and letting some slide. *



That's exactly what I don't want.
I was rather hoping for a thread that shows many minorities, including both Jews and Muslims, have common problems and, if all goes well, that understanding could even lead to a little bit of understanding of each other.
There are plenty of threads where mud slinging and insults are around but none ever involve use of the posters' brains and require any evidence to support theories.

I'm sure there are enough posters on here who are capable of reasoned debate and don't have to resort to foolish shouting matches to make their points.

I see there are some who are trying to disrupt the thread but, please, stop them before you stop the thread. 

We already have a few theories that have evidence to support them so we have a chance of actually getting somewhere worth going.
I have to go to  a computer show on Sunday and have a bunch of test to mark over the weekend so I still can't devote as much time as I would like to the thread but I would hate to loose a chance to show we have common problems and, if we stop bashing each other, may even be able to work together to solve them.

This doesn't change my opinion of the Israeli government but neither does it change my opinion of Jews. You'll see my posting record attacks the Israeli government; not Jews in general (OK, maybe once in flame zone with that rape stuff ).
OK, sorry, that was a flame fest but this is not and designed to do what it says on the tin; to explore historical reasons for hate.

I hope it can stay and further hope posters can remain polite so we may look deeper into the problems.


----------



## Indofred

Intense said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.
> 
> 
> 
> You know throughout history, Hebrew and Arab blood has been mixed. To me it boils down to the blessings, no matter who you are, for right action, V.S. human Nature, which at the primal stages generally is at war with the providence of others.
Click to expand...


This seems to be the case.

Arab & Jewish marriages on the rise - why are so many Muslim men making serious marriage offers to Hebraic women?



> Why are so many Arab Muslim men writing to a Druze lonely hearts club matchmaker asking to marry a Jewish Israeli woman? See the uTube video, Arab Lonely Hearts. These men want to get married, even though the men are from countries formerly at war with Israel. The matchmaker gets hundreds of letters annually.



It strikes me, if Jews and Muslims can find love and marry, there can't be an impossible gap between the two people.

The site describes problems and, I suspect, it has some bias but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of good mixed marriages out there.


----------



## editec

Far as I know only three  nations turned out their Jews in history 1 AD to 1900AD_ ...

Rome banished the Jews from Jerusalem BCE 135 (but not from the rest of the Empire), 

England around 1290, 

Spain in the late 15th century after Ferdinand and Isabella united christian Spain

Anybody know of any other examples where Jews were expulsed from a nation ?


----------



## Sunni Man

*109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*


                       YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

                         250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
                         415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
                         554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
                         561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
                         612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
                         642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
                         855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                         876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
                        1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
                        1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
                        1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
                        1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
                        1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
                        1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
                        1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
                        1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
                        1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
                        1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                        1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
                        1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
                        1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
                        1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
                        1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
                        1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
                        1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
                        1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
                        1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
                        1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
                        1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
                        1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
                        1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
                        1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
                        1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
                        1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
                        1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
                        1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
                        1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
                        1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
                        1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
                        1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
                        1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
                        1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's 
                        1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
                        1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
                        1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
                        1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
                        1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> *109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*
> 
> 
> YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE
> 
> 250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
> 415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
> 554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
> 561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
> 612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
> 642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
> 855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
> 1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
> 1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
> 1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
> 1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
> 1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
> 1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
> 1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
> 1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
> 1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
> 1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
> 1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
> 1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
> 1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
> 1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
> 1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
> 1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
> 1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
> 1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
> 1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
> 1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
> 1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
> 1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
> 1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
> 1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
> 1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
> 1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
> 1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
> 1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
> 1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
> 1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
> 1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
> 1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
> 1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's
> 1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
> 1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
> 1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
> 1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
> 1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries


Sunni, all these places have Jews, you just make this up?


----------



## iolo

ABikerSailor said:


> And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.



Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them.   Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing.    There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.


----------



## ima

WARNING! SERIOUS POST RELATING TO JEWISH HISTORY!

Countries that wish they never let in muslims (which would have had a SERIOUS impact on Jewish history FOR SURE):

Albania
Algeria
Andorra
Angola
Antigua & Barbuda
Argentina
Armenia
Australia
Austria
Azerbaijan
B	
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belgium
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Botswana
Brazil
Brunei Darussalam
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burma (Myanmar)
Burundi
C	
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
China
Colombia
Comoros
Congo
Congo, Democratic Republic of the
Costa Rica
Côte d'Ivoire
Croatia
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
D	
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominica
Dominican Republic
E	
Ecuador
East Timor
Egypt
El Salvador
England
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
F	
Fiji
Finland
France
G	
Gabon
Gambia, The
Georgia
Germany
Ghana
Great Britain
Greece
Grenada
Guatemala
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana
H	
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary
I	
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Israel
Italy
J	
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
K	
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kiribati
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kosovo
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
L	
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
M	
Macedonia
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia
Moldova
Monaco
Mongolia
Montenegro
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar
N	
Namibia
Nauru
Nepal
The Netherlands
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
Norway
Northern Ireland
O	
Oman
P	
Pakistan
Palau
Palestinian State*
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Peru
The Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Q	
Qatar
R	
Romania
Russia
Rwanda
S	
St. Kitts & Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent & The Grenadines
Samoa
San Marino
São Tomé & Príncipe
Saudi Arabia
Scotland
Senegal
Serbia
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Africa
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Swaziland
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
T	
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Tonga
Trinidad & Tobago
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
U	
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
United States
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
V	
Vanuatu
Vatican City (Holy See)
Venezuela
Vietnam
W	
Western Sahara*
Wales
Y	
Yemen
Z	
Zaire
Zambia
Zimbabwe


----------



## editec

Nice list.

Any documentation to support it?


----------



## ima

editec said:


> Nice list.
> 
> Any documentation to support it?



Right after sunni posts his documentation for all his places that supposedly have had their Jews driven out. Just as an example, "arab countries.....1948" , well I have a Jewish friend working in Saudi Arabia right now. And the US army is stationed there, ya think there's a few Jews in the army?


----------



## Sunni Man

This is a historical list of places jews have been driven out.

Nothing says that some didn't return.........   

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250

And once again ima.....this thread is about the jews and not muslims.

Please try to stay on the OP's topic........


----------



## Indofred

Sunni Man said:


> *109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*
> 
> 
> YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE
> 
> 250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
> .......



I've been hunting for the history that surrounds the first item on the list in my OP link.
Most of the opinion is just that and unsupported by anything except, "I know I'm right".
That applied to the extreme right wing, white power rubbish, through more extreme Muslim sites and ends up with pro Jewish sites who simply claim it's all a plot against Jews but offer about as much in support of their theory as the ultra right nut jobs manage.

I did find this.

The Cambridge History of Judaism: Volume 4, The Late Roman-Rabbinic Period - W. William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, Steven T. Katz - Google Books

This suggests there was very little known about the conditions at the time but then we have to consider Tertullian.
His writing, "Adversus Judaeos ", leads me to think the early Catholic church had issues with Jewish teachings.
I'd have to find out a lot more about the power of the Catholics at that time but, if it is as I suspect, powerful, Tertullian's works  might very well lead us to the reasons behind the expulsion of Jews.


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> WARNING! SERIOUS POST RELATING TO JEWISH HISTORY!
> 
> Countries that wish they never let in muslims (which would have had a SERIOUS impact on Jewish history FOR SURE):
> 
> Albania



Perhaps you can explain why that post is any more valuable than any other unsupported list and how it helps a serious discussion.

Serious thread about history of the Jews and the problems they've had, not a slanging match.
Education, I'm assured, is a wonderful thing.

I'm learning a lot by researching my own question; give it a try and you may just bring some light into the darkness.


----------



## Intense

Indofred said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> *109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*
> 
> 
> YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE
> 
> 250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
> .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been hunting for the history that surrounds the first item on the list in my OP link.
> Most of the opinion is just that and unsupported by anything except, "I know I'm right".
> That applied to the extreme right wing, white power rubbish, through more extreme Muslim sites and ends up with pro Jewish sites who simply claim it's all a plot against Jews but offer about as much in support of their theory as the ultra right nut jobs manage.
> 
> I did find this.
> 
> The Cambridge History of Judaism: Volume 4, The Late Roman-Rabbinic Period - W. William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, Steven T. Katz - Google Books
> 
> This suggests there was very little known about the conditions at the time but then we have to consider Tertullian.
> His writing, "Adversus Judaeos ", leads me to think the early Catholic church had issues with Jewish teachings.
> I'd have to find out a lot more about the power of the Catholics at that time but, if it is as I suspect, powerful, Tertullian's works  might very well lead us to the reasons behind the expulsion of Jews.
Click to expand...


The Catholic Encyclopedia
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Home
=========================
St. Cyprian of Carthage
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Cyprian of Carthage


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> This is a historical list of places jews have been driven out.
> 
> Nothing says that some didn't return.........
> 
> 109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250
> 
> And once again ima.....this thread is about the jews and not muslims.
> 
> Please try to stay on the OP's topic........



Jews were never expelled from arabs countries in 1948. There are and have been Jews in arab countries forever. In Germany during WWII, there were still Jews in Germany, ever heard of Oskar Schindler? And there were Jews in Germany all through the war and even afterwards. I could go on, but you already knew that didn't you? You're just happy to have found a place of "serious" discussion to vent your hatred for Jews. At least have the courage to admit your hatred for Jews.


----------



## Indofred

iolo said:


> *Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them. *  Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing.    There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.



On the face of it but without really checking yet, the bold seems to be the case up to post WWII.
However, to make that claim, you really have to support it with unbiased links.
I'm still on the first in my list but the Catholic church of the time does look to have been at least the spark, if not the cause of that event.
That in no way frees Muslims from anything but it's a long list and I'm only on number one.

As for the rest of the post, Palestine is NOTHING to do with this thread so please avoid any mention of modern problems.
As soon as the thread is allowed that way, it'll just turn into a slanging match and get deleted. 
I'm hoping we can get honest, researched answers from all sides of the modern divide, thus produce understanding between all.

The more I look at the modern problems, the more I see it's down to stereotypes and blind hate.


> And when he comes, he will open the eyes of the blind and unplug the ears of the deaf.


I don't claim or with to be, "He" but I may be able to go a little way down that road.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a historical list of places jews have been driven out.
> 
> Nothing says that some didn't return.........
> 
> 109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250
> 
> And once again ima.....this thread is about the jews and not muslims.
> 
> Please try to stay on the OP's topic........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jews were never expelled from arabs countries in 1948. There are and have been Jews in arab countries forever. In Germany during WWII, there were still Jews in Germany, ever heard of Oskar Schindler? And there were Jews in Germany all through the war and even afterwards. I could go on, but you already knew that didn't you? You're just happy to have found a place of "serious" discussion to vent your hatred for Jews. At least have the courage to admit your hatred for Jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again.....the thread isn't about me or muslims.
> 
> Please adhere to the topic of the OP.........
Click to expand...

I did, I refuted your bogus claim that Jews had been expelled from Germany, ever. And muslims countries. And we all noticed that you didn't deny hating Jews (even though this thread isn't about Jew haters like you, well ok , it is actually).


----------



## Indofred

Intense said:


> The Catholic Encyclopedia
> CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Home
> =========================
> St. Cyprian of Carthage
> CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Cyprian of Carthage



This one explains the power of the church better.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Carthage


> A council of seventy bishops held at Carthage by Bishop Agrippinus at the epoch (variously dated between 198 and 222), substantially corroborates the testimony of Tertullian as to the general progress of Christianity in Africa in the early years of the third century. It is impossible to say whence came the first preachers of Christianity in Roman Africa. It is worthy of note in this regard, however, that from the moment when African Christianity comes into historical prominence, the bishops of Roman Africa are seen in very close relations with the See of Rome. The faithful of Carthage in particular were "greatly interested in all that happened at Rome; every movement of ideas, every occurrence bearing on discipline, ritual, literature, that took place at Rome was immediately re-echoed at Carthage" (Duchesne, Hist. Anc. De l'Église, I, 392; cf. Leclecq, L'Afrique chrét., I, iii). Indeed, during the last decade of the second century the Roman Church was governed by an African, Pope Victor (189-199).



It looks as if the church held serious power and Tertullian, who seemed to have big problems with Jewish teachings, had a voice in the church.

Seems we may have found an answer to the first one on the list.
Anyone agree?


----------



## iolo

Indofred said:


> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them. *  Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing.    There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the face of it but without really checking yet, the bold seems to be the case up to post WWII.
> However, to make that claim, you really have to support it with unbiased links.
> I'm still on the first in my list but the Catholic church of the time does look to have been at least the spark, if not the cause of that event.
> That in no way frees Muslims from anything but it's a long list and I'm only on number one.
> 
> As for the rest of the post, Palestine is NOTHING to do with this thread so please avoid any mention of modern problems.
> As soon as the thread is allowed that way, it'll just turn into a slanging match and get deleted.
> I'm hoping we can get honest, researched answers from all sides of the modern divide, thus produce understanding between all.
> 
> The more I look at the modern problems, the more I see it's down to stereotypes and blind hate.
> 
> 
> 
> And when he comes, he will open the eyes of the blind and unplug the ears of the deaf.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't claim or with to be, "He" but I may be able to go a little way down that road.
Click to expand...


You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there.   All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder.   If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?


----------



## Indofred

More in the same style.

History of the Church vs. Jews



> AD 200
> From very early days, Church sermons and Christian theological writing almost invariably included passionate anti-Jewish incitement. Twenty-seven of the thirty-two surviving works of Tertullian (160-225), a priest from Carthage who is considered the first theologian of the West, contain anti-Jewish discourse.' In De Oratione, he wrote that 'though Israel may wash all its members every day, it is never clean. Its hands ... are always stained, covered forever with the blood of the prophets and of our Lord himself.'
> 
> 240 AD
> Origen of Alexandria writes that the Jews "have committed the most abominable of crimes" in conspiring against Christ, and for that reason "the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election". *
> and 'the blood of Jesus falls not only on the Jews of that time, but on all generations of Jews up to the end of the world'.
> 
> 248 AD
> "St. Cyprian writes that the Jews have fallen under the heavy wrath of God, because they have departed from the Lord, and have followed idols."



There may well be more involved but it's really looking like a Christian Vs. Jews match in that case.
Given the Italian event happened around the same time, fair chance the same factors were in play but I have yet to look at that so there may well be more to it.

Interestingly, no reference is made to money lending or attempts at take over of anything by Jews so this looks like a theological conflict, not one involving the general population or social conditions.


----------



## Indofred

iolo said:


> You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there.   All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder.   If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?



I rather hope to.
This thread has *NOTHING* to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.

Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.

Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
If you can't get past that, please don't bother.


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> (even though this thread isn't about Jew haters like you, well ok , it is actually).



It isn't about Jew haters or Muslim haters.
It's about haters whoever they may be.

I'd like to make a deal with you and Sunni:

You avoid any mention of the last hundred years or so and stick to the thread's intention and I'll assume you two can actually reason like a human beings and see past blind hate, propaganda and the rubbish we read in the various news outlets.

Jews aren't anyone's enemy
Muslims aren't anyone's enemy
Christians aren't anyone's enemy.

Ignorance, refusal to learn, lack of understanding and plain knowing how right you are, are the real killers in today's world.
Perhaps you two could have a go at a new trick, finding out about history and creating an informed opinion.

Willing to give it a try?

If you find out you were right and Muslims/Jews/Christians (Pick the preferred target for your hate) are actually all guilty, you have made an informed choice.
If you realised your pre-conceived ideas are wrong, you must examine your position.
I've already found out some of my ideas were way off so I must adjust my position to suit but find I can't take up a new position until I do a lot more research.
I have to be honest; I was expecting to find a web of financial dealings involving Jewish merchants but I've found nothing of the sort in the first event on the list.

Your only fear in taking part is, if you can't stand to be wrong.
Are you strong enough to do this properly?


----------



## Sunni Man

In my defense:

1) I have not brought up the Israeli/ Palestine conflict in this thread.

2) I do not hate the jews; but I do vehemently dislike zionism and Israel


----------



## Sunni Man

Back on topic:

Although the frame work for much anti-jewish sentiment was do to the Catholic church.

The bulk of the problem was the jews engaging in usury with their gentile neighbors.

And their clannish and superior behavior towards their fellow citizens.........


----------



## Sunni Man

On topic:

The problem of so called anti-semitism has been around for thousands of years.

Although many people like to blame it on scapegoating of an innocent group due to minor reasons.

In reality, many  people of various countries have legitimate and valid complaints toward the jews and their behavior.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> On topic:
> 
> The problem of so called anti-semitism has been around for thousands of years.
> 
> Although many people like to blame it on scapegoating of an innocent group due to minor reasons.
> 
> In reality, many  people of various countries have legitimate and valid complaints toward the jews and their behavior.



Legitimate and valid to whom? You? Again, no surprise there, and no surprise you have no link.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> *Although the frame work for much anti-jewish sentiment was do to the Catholic church*.
> 
> The bulk of the problem was the jews engaging in usury with their gentile neighbors.
> 
> And their clannish and superior behavior towards their fellow citizens.........



You must have meant the Islamic Mosques.
Again, no link, no surprise there.


----------



## Circe

Indofred, it may not be a recoverable thread but congrats for the courage to try --

in the first place, things have really changed. I can remember when there was NONE of this vehement prejudice, or at least one didn't hear it outright.

The influx of Muslims plus the left turning firmly away from Israel seems to be the reason antisemitism has grown hot again.

As for the historical events, I said I think envy is the reason. They were smarter and they were richer: what's to like? I don't agree with that, but I think that's what happened.

But here's another --- they were weak, they wouldn't or didn't fight. Like the Amish today in this country. The Amish have avoided envy because they farm and most people in America don't want to farm, so their refusal to fight is so far not a problem.

But Jews wouldn't fight back, and so it was easy to take their money and their property and people did, again and again. People are tempted to murder by weak targets: look at all the bullying in high schools. Everywhere. People with a set toward combativeness have a natural deterrence. People who are known not to fight tend to be victimized. Especially when law and order is poor, as in plague time or war or the king is broke again.


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> Jews aren't anyone's enemy



Iran, Hezbollah...


Indofred said:


> Muslims aren't anyone's enemy


Sunni admits that muslims want to turn the US into a sharialand, making muslims our enemies.


Indofred said:


> Christians aren't anyone's enemy.


Try Homosexuals, women's rights...


----------



## Sunni Man

On topic:

Europe (including Russia) historically has always had a problem with the jews.

Many people want to blame the Catholic church.

But some of the countries like Russia were Orthodox christians.

While other European countries were Protestant.


----------



## ima

Circe said:


> Indofred, it may not be a recoverable thread but congrats for the courage to try --
> 
> in the first place, things have really changed. I can remember when there was NONE of this vehement prejudice, or at least one didn't hear it outright.
> 
> The influx of Muslims plus the left turning firmly away from Israel seems to be the reason antisemitism has grown hot again.
> 
> As for the historical events, I said I think envy is the reason. They were smarter and they were richer: what's to like? I don't agree with that, but I think that's what happened.
> 
> But here's another --- they were weak, they wouldn't or didn't fight. Like the Amish today in this country. The Amish have avoided envy because they farm and most people in America don't want to farm, so their refusal to fight is so far not a problem.
> 
> But Jews wouldn't fight back, and so it was easy to take their money and their property and people did, again and again. People are tempted to murder by weak targets: look at all the bullying in high schools. Everywhere. People with a set toward combativeness have a natural deterrence. People who are known not to fight tend to be victimized. Especially when law and order is poor, as in plague time or war or the king is broke again.


Fred wants to explore how he can blame someone else than muslims for today's anti-semitism by going back in history to find any nugget of non-muslim Jew hatred, so he can point a finger at them and say: see? It's not muslims!


----------



## Sunni Man

On topic

Much of the anti-semitic was based on illogical hatred towards the jews.

That cannot be denied.

But there were some elements of anti-semitism that was based of fact and justified.........


----------



## ima

On topic

Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.

That cannot be denied.

So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?


----------



## Circe

ima said:


> Fred wants to explore how he can blame someone else than muslims for today's anti-semitism by going back in history to find any nugget of non-muslim Jew hatred, so he can point a finger at them and say: see? It's not muslims!



Your description, indofred, says you are an "extremist muslim" from Indonesia. Is that true?


----------



## Sunni Man

^^^^^  He was being sarcastic.......read his posts and you will find him far from being an extremist.......


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> Although the frame work for much anti-jewish sentiment was do to the Catholic church.
> 
> The bulk of the problem was the jews engaging in usury with their gentile neighbors.
> 
> And their clannish and superior behavior towards their fellow citizens.........



Define 'usury', 'clannish' and 'superior' - and then produce what you consider documentation of said behavior as prevalent among Jewish communities of various places and times.

Obviously you do not recognize your assertion about 'the bulk of the problem' as being baseless and prejudicial.


----------



## MHunterB

IN an era when Charlemagne was considered 'miraculous' for being able to read AND write, and to read without 'subvocalizing' - what would the unlettered make of an entire community who aspired to be literate, and to some extent succeeded?  

Especially when these people were not simply 'not Christian' - you have to recall the STIGMA of Jews being 'rejecters of Christ'!


----------



## Sunni Man

*Back on Topic:*

I guess the issue comes down to who is culpable for the problem between jews and gentiles.

The jews claim it is 100% based on hatred towards them.

And the gentiles say it's totally the jews fault by their behavior.

Most likely it's somewhere in between.

So the question is; how should the percentages be divided?  ........


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> On topic:
> 
> Europe (including Russia) historically has always had a problem with the jews.
> 
> Many people want to blame the Catholic church.
> 
> But some of the countries like Russia were Orthodox christians.
> 
> While other European countries were Protestant.



'The Catholic Church' was the ONLY official Church for quite a few hundred years.  I realize that some Protestants seek to disassociate themselves from RC bigotry - but if one reads Martin Luther, it becomes obvious that Protestant Christianity is no more 'tolerant' (SPIT!) than the RC is alleged to be.

As to the 'Eastern Orthodox' Churches:  the basic 'sin' of Judaism is that it continues to exist *after* Jesus.  That really is what it appears to boil down to, this objection by SOME Christians at SOME time to the "sin" of Jews-practicing-Judaism .

And I dare say, that is the case with SOME Muslims at SOME times.  Both Chistianity and Islam have the element of 'universaity':  both assert in some interpretations that ONLY their adherents will be 'saved'.

Judaism does not claim to be 'the' way for anyone else:  it DOES accept proselytes, and does not state than ONLY Jews will be 'saved' - BUT what is 'saved' in Judaism?  It CANNOT be 'saved from Hell', because there is no such concept in Judaism.  It CANNOT be 'saved from the Devil' - for the 'Satan' of Cristianity does not exist in Judaism.

This is one of those things I meant about 'context':  both Christians and Muslims wrongly assume that all elements of their theology are present in Judaism, and hold the same importance as in their on faiths.  

I don't 'blame' anyone for such a common misconception:  we tend to study only our own faith 'on its own', any of us.  And there are so many more of Christians or Muslims than of Jews:  over one Billion each to 14 million Jews.  So it wouldn't be at all reasonable for me to expect you to know all about my faith.

When either Christians or Muslims want to learn about Judaism, it's evidently very difficult for some - SOME! - to 'suspend disbelief' and actually see Judaism as its own system, and NOT *in relation to* the teachings of their own faith.

I regret that I have few ways to express this - but I've noticed some folks seem to confuse understanding what I actually believe (as opposed to what your Scriptures say about it), with actually believing it yourselves.....   I find that very puzzling, but that inability appears to be what is fueling some of the opposition to, say, reading books like 'Huckleberry Finn' in public schools.(or Anne Frank's diary)


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> *Back on Topic:*
> 
> I guess the issue comes down to who is culpable for the problem between jews and gentiles.
> 
> The jews claim it is 100% based on hatred towards them.
> 
> And the gentiles say it's totally the jews fault by their behavior.
> 
> Most likely it's somewhere in between.
> 
> So the question is; how should the percentages be divided?  ........



99% muslims' fault. 1% christians' fault.


----------



## ima

ima said:


> On topic
> 
> Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.
> 
> That cannot be denied.
> 
> So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?


*Back on topic:*

muslims are the most anti-semetic group in all of history. 

Now THAT'S a fact.


----------



## hoosier88

ima said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> On topic
> 
> Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.
> 
> That cannot be denied.
> 
> So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> *Back on topic:*
> 
> *muslims are the most anti-semetic group *in all of history.
> 
> Now THAT'S a fact.
Click to expand...


(My bold)

From *The end of faith *- Sam Harris:
"Anti-Semitism," like the term "Aryan," is a misnomer of 19th C German pseudo-science.  Semitic (derived from Shem, one of Noah's three sons) "designated a group of cognate languages that included Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Babylonian, Assyrian & Ethiopic, not an ethnic or racial group."  See R. S. Wistrich, *Anti-Semitism:  The Longest Hatred *(NY:  Schocken Books, 1991), xvi.  "Anti-Semitism" should therefore denote a hatred of Arabs as well, which it does not.  Despite its mistaken roots, "anti-Semitism" has become the only acceptable term for the hatred of Jews." - p. 246.


----------



## iolo

Indofred said:


> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there.   All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder.   If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I rather hope to.
> This thread has *NOTHING* to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
> So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
> If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.
> 
> Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.
> 
> Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
> If you can't get past that, please don't bother.
Click to expand...


As we know, Muslims have always respected the 'People of the Book'.   Those who currently rant against Muslims do so on no evidence but that of the zionist colony.   The question of historical Jew-hatred is interesting:   brainwashed colonialist ranters aren't.   Since we agree I see no reason for you to come Mr Holy with me, matey.   Pack it in!


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> On topic
> 
> Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.
> 
> That cannot be denied.
> 
> So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> *Back on topic:*
> 
> muslims are the most anti-semetic group in all of history.
> 
> Now THAT'S a fact.
Click to expand...


When you accuse, you must prove what you say is true.
My first post gave a list of serious events. I'm still working on the first one so I don't have enough evidence to say either way.

I suggest, people knowing how right they are without bothering to check is the cause of most of the hate in history.

You have the list so post your research and prove your position.


----------



## Indofred

iolo said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there.   All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder.   If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I rather hope to.
> This thread has *NOTHING* to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
> So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
> If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.
> 
> Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.
> 
> Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
> If you can't get past that, please don't bother.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As we know, Muslims have always respected the 'People of the Book'.   Those who currently rant against Muslims do so on no evidence but that of the zionist colony.   The question of historical Jew-hatred is interesting:   brainwashed colonialist ranters aren't.   Since we agree I see no reason for you to come Mr Holy with me, matey.   Pack it in!
Click to expand...


If Muslims have no guilt in the historical crimes against Jews, post your research to prove it.
It's taken me several days to look at one event so you must either have lots of free time or you're really fast. That or you're saying it without bothering to find out if you're right.
I'll say this again.
PALESTINE/ISRAEL SINCE WWII HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.
WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT, START A THREAD.


----------



## SAYIT

Indofred said:


> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> I rather hope to.
> This thread has *NOTHING* to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
> So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
> If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.
> 
> Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.
> 
> Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
> If you can't get past that, please don't bother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As we know, Muslims have always respected the 'People of the Book'.   Those who currently rant against Muslims do so on no evidence but that of the zionist colony.   The question of historical Jew-hatred is interesting:   brainwashed colonialist ranters aren't.   Since we agree I see no reason for you to come Mr Holy with me, matey.   Pack it in!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Muslims have no guilt in the historical crimes against Jews, post your research to prove it.
> It's taken me several days to look at one event so you must either have lots of free time or you're really fast. That or you're saying it without bothering to find out if you're right.
> I'll say this again.
> PALESTINE/ISRAEL SINCE WWII HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.
> WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT, START A THREAD.
Click to expand...


The Koran contains both positive and negative comments about Jews. For those Muslims who subscribe to the negatives, hate for Jews is scripturally justified, even required. That seems a common thread among anti-Semites ... subscription to negatives about Jews be they the hateful comments of Luther or any of the socio-political canards through the centuries. According to historian Walter Laqueur, conflicting statements about Jews in the Koran have affected Muslim attitudes towards Jews to this day, especially during periods of rising Islamic fundamentalism. 
Walter Laqueur, "The Origins of Islamic Terrorism."


----------



## SAYIT

varelse said:


> What homeland? Canaan, which they took by conquest?
> 
> Or is it 'different' when Jews do it? Let me guess, that's just how [ethnic] nationalism works...



That seems to have been how it was done thousands of years ago. Do you have a prob with all who did so or just the Joooos?


----------



## SAYIT

AmyNation said:


> Muslims don't hate Jews. There are a lot of Muslims in the world, and *making broad brush statements about all of them* is silly.



Isn't that what most of the anti-Jew posts on this thread are about?


----------



## SAYIT

ima said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you tell us why muslims hate jews so much? I'd be curious to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because:
> a - Muslims don't hate Jews; some Muslims hate Jews
> b - It's nothing to do with the thread
> 
> What has been suggested, many times, is Jews are targeted because of stereotypes about them getting rich off the misery of the general population.
> 
> BBC News - Payday lenders told to improve by OFT
> 
> "Payday lenders" provide a service to those who can't get loans elsewhere but provide a 'service' that is highly unpopular.
> 
> If enough members of the Jewish groups (before any given historical event) were engaged in this sort of work, it may well explain where the majority were targeted.
> Add the suggestions, Jews lived in enclaves, looked different and dressed differently to the local majority and we have a hypothesis.
> 
> 
> 
> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fred, it's pretty simple, they've been "hated" because they've always been a minority wherever they were. As is almost every minority everywhere, like I said, nothing exceptional over Jews being hated. Every country has its hated minorities, in the US, it's muslims, used to be beaners, before that used to be blacks, before that used to be indians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may well hold some truth but, for that to be a total explanation, all other minority in similar positions must be proven to have the same problems.
> 
> I know Gypsies have been far less than popular for a very long time but have they had an equal number of problems, pro rata?
> 
> Gypsies: A Persecuted Race : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota
> 
> Seems there may be a simple explanation as far as the interaction between non Christians and the Christian church goes.
> 
> So we have a theory in progress as far as Christian areas go.
> The church was clearly very powerful so, if the established church didn't like you, you were basically buggered.
> 
> Question is, can we prove or disprove this theory with research into the subject?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sunni has a deep hatred for Jews, it's obvious by his posts. He probably wishes he were one, instead of what he is (if I post what he is, I'll inexplicably get banned, go figure).
> Loan sharking isn't exceptional to the Jews either. But if you're looking for a separate reason for the Jews as a minority and why they got hosed so many times, it's probably because they are a racist minority, very closed to gentiles. And as a racist minority, that can rub a majority the wrong way, especially when the majority is trying to be racist towards a minority that is thumbing their own racist noses at them.
Click to expand...


I'm going to tell you why Jews have separated themselves within host countries. 
1) Going to synagogue was only done on foot.
2) Jewish learning meant being near the schools
3) Maintaining the kosher laws required access to a kosher butcher and a centralized place one could acquire kosher foods.
4) Many communities "ghettoized" their Jews, forcing them to live together while restricting their mainstream opportunities. Those restrictions along with the rigors of Jewish studies meant many Jews were poor making them a target of Gentile hate and scorn.
Harsh conditions were imposed upon them and then blame was placed on them for the conditions in which they lived. Some still blame them.


----------



## SAYIT

Sunni Man said:


> The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.
> 
> It was a product of cause and effect.
> 
> Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........



Must be. I know everytime I see a woman walking down the street unescorted by male family members I think she deserves to be raped.


----------



## SAYIT

Sunni Man said:


> *109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*
> 
> 
> YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE
> 
> 250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
> 415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
> 554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
> 561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
> 612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
> 642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
> 855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
> 1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
> 1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
> 1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
> 1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
> 1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
> 1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
> 1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
> 1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
> 1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
> 1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
> 1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
> 1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
> 1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
> 1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
> 1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
> 1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
> 1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
> 1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
> 1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
> 1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
> 1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
> 1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
> 1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
> 1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
> 1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
> 1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
> 1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
> 1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
> 1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
> 1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
> 1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
> 1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
> 1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's
> 1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
> 1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
> 1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
> 1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
> 1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries



Again I ask you to post the source of your list. If you are gonna use other's work you need to give 'em credit.


----------



## SAYIT

iolo said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them.   Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing.    There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.
Click to expand...


There was no Nazi occupation of Palestine.


----------



## Indofred

SAYIT said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.
> 
> It was a product of cause and effect.
> 
> Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must be. I know everytime I see a woman walking down the street unescorted by male family members I think she deserves to be raped.
Click to expand...


I dislike your post but dislike Sunni's more.
Something must have caused all of these events but my early seaches suggests at least some were nothing to do with anything the Jews of the time did wrong.
Frankly, I was expecting to find bad deeds but I have not when looking at the first event.

That suggests it was purely a church led attack, not a popular fear or hatred of those Jews.

Lots more events to go at and they may have different stories.

I suggest posters actually look at the evidence regarding each event and post it, not make blind, uneducated clsims with nothing to back them up.
I see both sides doing the same. They seem to want to hate more than they want to learn.

Are you so scared you may be wrong, you'll have to stop hating each other?


----------



## Indofred

SAYIT said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because:
> a - Muslims don't hate Jews; some Muslims hate Jews
> b - It's nothing to do with the thread
> 
> What has been suggested, many times, is Jews are targeted because of stereotypes about them getting rich off the misery of the general population.
> 
> BBC News - Payday lenders told to improve by OFT
> 
> "Payday lenders" provide a service to those who can't get loans elsewhere but provide a 'service' that is highly unpopular.
> 
> If enough members of the Jewish groups (before any given historical event) were engaged in this sort of work, it may well explain where the majority were targeted.
> Add the suggestions, Jews lived in enclaves, looked different and dressed differently to the local majority and we have a hypothesis.
> 
> 
> 
> That may well hold some truth but, for that to be a total explanation, all other minority in similar positions must be proven to have the same problems.
> 
> I know Gypsies have been far less than popular for a very long time but have they had an equal number of problems, pro rata?
> 
> Gypsies: A Persecuted Race : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota
> 
> Seems there may be a simple explanation as far as the interaction between non Christians and the Christian church goes.
> 
> So we have a theory in progress as far as Christian areas go.
> The church was clearly very powerful so, if the established church didn't like you, you were basically buggered.
> 
> Question is, can we prove or disprove this theory with research into the subject?
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni has a deep hatred for Jews, it's obvious by his posts. He probably wishes he were one, instead of what he is (if I post what he is, I'll inexplicably get banned, go figure).
> Loan sharking isn't exceptional to the Jews either. But if you're looking for a separate reason for the Jews as a minority and why they got hosed so many times, it's probably because they are a racist minority, very closed to gentiles. And as a racist minority, that can rub a majority the wrong way, especially when the majority is trying to be racist towards a minority that is thumbing their own racist noses at them.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm going to tell you why Jews have separated themselves within host countries.
> 1) Going to synagogue was only done on foot.
> 2) Jewish learning meant being near the schools
> 3) Maintaining the kosher laws required access to a kosher butcher and a centralized place one could acquire kosher foods.
> 4) Many communities "ghettoized" their Jews, forcing them to live together while restricting mainstream opportunities. Those restrictions along with the rigors of Jewish studies meant many Jews were poor making them a target of Gentile hate and scorn.
> Harsh conditions were imposed upon them and then blame was placed on them for the conditions in which they lived. Some still blame them.
Click to expand...


Potential for interest there.
Was this a factor in any of the events listed in my OP?
Links please.


----------



## SAYIT

Indofred said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.
> 
> It was a product of cause and effect.
> 
> Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must be. I know everytime I see a woman walking down the street unescorted by male family members I think she deserves to be raped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I dislike your post but dislike Sunni's more.
> Something must have caused all of these events but my early seaches suggests at least some were nothing to do with anything the Jews of the time did wrong.
> Frankly, I was expecting to find bad deeds but I have not when looking at the first event.
> 
> That suggests it was purely a church led attack, not a popular fear or hatred of those Jews.
> 
> Lots more events to go at and they may have different stories.
Click to expand...


You were expecting to find bad deeds? Seems to me you started your search for "truth" with pre-conceived ideas.


----------



## The Irish Ram

SAYIT said:


> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them.   Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing.    There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There was no Nazi occupation of Palestine.
Click to expand...


ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a  wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.  
The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.


----------



## Indofred

SAYIT said:


> You were expecting to find bad deeds? Seems to me you started your search for "truth" with pre-conceived ideas.



Yes, and I was wrong. 

All the stuff I read on various forums tends to mention money lending and various other unpopular occupations. I fully expected to find these as factors in many or most of the events on the list.
I'm still on the first event but there is nothing to suggest this was true as far as that case  went.
The only references to this are on unreliable, extremist white power sites and they provide no evidence to back up their claims so must be discounted.

I was wrong.


----------



## Indofred

I've gone as far as I can on the first event so I'm making a start on number 2,  224 C.E. Italy	Forced Conversion.


----------



## Indofred

My, gawd, searching this stuff out is like wading through treacle.

White power sites are easily the worst for posting total rubbish but a few Muslim sites are pretty crap as well.
Searching the pro Jewish sites is almost as bad because they just claim everything is down to people who hate Jews but never explore the reasons why.

Has no one ever bothered to look at this issue?


----------



## Saigon

One thing that is often overlooked is that Jews are not the only people who are resented for their education, wealth and onften inward-focused culture - it's just the one most evident in Europe. 

But Armenians, Tutsi, Mestizo South Americans...even Ethiopians have their share of detractors, and for much the same reasons as Jews. Any sense that one group of people are acting as an elite, and they will be attacked.


----------



## Indofred

The second event occurred in AD 224.
So far, I have little but it was pre-Constantine and pre the Christian period in Italy so that's less likely to be a major factor.
Jews, along with everyone else in Roman occupied lands, were granted Roman citizenship in AD 212.

The gospel by Matthew had blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus and a few other bits and bobs that were likely to really bug the new Christians.
However, just 10 years after that, a ruddy great big synagogue was built; that suggests no official discrimination as such.
However, my first exploration suggests, Jews were seen as backwards and weren't very welcome but were not actually bothered with.
Jewish slaves were taken to Rome after various cities fell to Roman troops but this seems to have been pretty much normal for every defeated city, not just Jewish ones.
There also seems to be some diplomatic relationship but that's disputed.
Jews seem to have been very actively proselytising Romans to their faith and seem to have been quite successful.
Vespasian seems to have been a bit anti but that was probably due to his battles in Jewish areas and a couple of Jewish revolts against Roman occupation.
Still nothing to explain the forced conversion and what exactly they were converted to.
I'll have to look at the rise of Christian power in the country but it's starting to look like that may be the thing.
There is no argument about  Constantine's anti Jewish rule but what went before him and how much power was in the hands of the early church?


----------



## Indofred

Saigon said:


> One thing that is often overlooked is that Jews are not the only people who are resented for their education, wealth and onften inward-focused culture - it's just the one most evident in Europe.
> 
> But Armenians, Tutsi, Mestizo South Americans...even Ethiopians have their share of detractors, and for much the same reasons as Jews. Any sense that one group of people are acting as an elite, and they will be attacked.



A reasonable theory but the ancient events I'm looking at are clouded in time and a lot of biased sites, all claiming to have the truth all sorted out but none offering any evidence of any sort.
It's clear, there was a reasonable size Jewish community in Italy at the time of the second event but there is nothing so far to suggest those people lived in the manner you suggest.


----------



## Indofred

This BBC site suggests the early Christians were pretty much dog food as Nero looked for a nice scapegoat to blame for the fires and divert attention from his musical inabilities.

I'm finding a lot of stuff that says, Romans were seriously anti circumcision, considering it an attack on mankind. Seems slaves who were forced into this were considered to be free men by many Romans.
This seems to have been a major issue of the time.


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> On topic
> 
> Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.
> 
> That cannot be denied.
> 
> So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> *Back on topic:*
> 
> muslims are the most anti-semetic group in all of history.
> 
> Now THAT'S a fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you accuse, you must prove what you say is true.
> My first post gave a list of serious events. I'm still working on the first one so I don't have enough evidence to say either way.
> 
> I suggest, people knowing how right they are without bothering to check is the cause of most of the hate in history.
> 
> You have the list so post your research and prove your position.
Click to expand...


You and sunni are muslims, you should know best, why don't you two just confirm it for us?


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> This BBC site suggests the early Christians were pretty much dog food as Nero looked for a nice scapegoat to blame for the fires and divert attention from his musical inabilities.
> 
> I'm finding a lot of stuff that says, Romans were seriously anti circumcision, considering it an attack on mankind. Seems slaves who were forced into this were considered to be free men by many Romans.
> This seems to have been a major issue of the time.



This is a serious thread about Jewish history. Please stay on topic.


----------



## Sunni Man

The Irish Ram said:


> ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a  wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
> The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.


*XXXXXXX*

Here is the verse:

Genesis 16:12    "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.

2) It says nothing about muslims. 

3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.

Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.

Very dishonest...........


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a  wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
> The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the verse:
> 
> Genesis 16:12    "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."
> 
> 1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.
> 
> 2) It says nothing about muslims.
> 
> 3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.
> 
> Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.
> 
> Very dishonest...........
Click to expand...


The immense hatred of the Jews began in the time of Mohammed, by Mohammed, and it is alleged that Allah gave the command.  The Qur&#8217;an, the hadiths, and the events in Mohammed&#8217;s life will explain the hatred that began with Mohammed and continued in his followers to this day.

1.  The Qur&#8217;anic data

Q. 5:60   Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path."

This quote is in contradiction to the verses quoted below from the Bible about the Jews as God&#8217;s chosen people.   Did not Allah &#8220;remember&#8221; what he told Abraham and others?  There seems to be a lot of self-serving comments in the Qur&#8217;an that reveal Mohammed&#8217;s hatred of the Jews in his area rather than the words of Yahweh.

One must understand that the Jewish rejection of the prophethood of Mohammed deeply affected him.  Mohammed wanted to be accepted as a prophet and his pride could not stand the rejection.

Q. 2:61   &#8220;And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.&#8221;


----------



## Sunni Man

*XXXXXXX
*
The expulsions and pogroms against jews historically took place in Europe by christians

And had nothing to do with muslims.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> *XXXXXXX
> *
> The expulsions and pogroms against jews historically took place in Europe by christians
> 
> And had nothing to do with muslims.



So are you saying that muslims are whiter than snow when it comes to anti-semitism?


----------



## Sunni Man

I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.

Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.

Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.
> 
> Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.
> 
> Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........



"So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?"
Which also includes the Middle East. And Mohammed was the source of muslim hatred towards Jews. You can't escape the fact that muslims are the biggest jew haters around today. And that hatred can be traced to your Prophet Mohammed, a sick pervert who married a 9 year old girl.
Other groups throughout history have had issues with Jews, no argument here about that, but the other groups have been able to realize that it's not  to hate minorities, except for muslims, who continue to this day to harass and abuse Jews, among other minorities/infidels that they want to kill.


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.
> 
> Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.
> 
> Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........



One can ONLY do that if one does not know about the problems that The Prophet himself had with the Jews of the Medina.

But your point is largely correct, I think.

Often (depending on what time and place you're talking about) Jews thrived under Moslem rule in ways they did NOT under Christendom.

Of course they were second class citizens in most time and places, but then too so were most non Moslems living under the yoke of Islam.

As were most NONChristians living under the yoke of Chistendom.

Such was the TYPICAL behavior of all Abrahamic religions when they were in charge.


----------



## Intense

editec said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.
> 
> Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.
> 
> Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One can ONLY do that if one does not know about the problems that The Prophet himself had with the Jews of the Medina.
> 
> But your point is largely correct, I think.
> 
> Often (depending on what time and place you're talking about) Jews thrived under Moslem rule in ways they did NOT under Christendom.
> 
> Of course they were second class citizens in most time and places, but then too so were most non Moslems living under the yoke of Islam.
> 
> As were most NONChristians living under the yoke of Chistendom.
> 
> Such was the TYPICAL behavior of all Abrahamic religions when they were in charge.
Click to expand...


I think you are confusing cultural influences and effects with doctrine. It is Man's nature, not virtues or spiritual truths that war with justice and fair play.


----------



## Intense

> Polonius:
> *Neither a borrower nor a lender be,
> For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
> And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.*
> Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 75&#8211;77
> 
> Neither a borrower nor a lender be - Shakespeare Quotes



Seriously..... is there a quicker way to risk losing a friendship? 

If you really, really, want to get rid of someone, lend them money. 

Why is it in our nature to have disdain for those we are indebted to? 

That is the real question concerning the effects of borrowing and lending.


----------



## MHunterB

And when you're a non-Jewish ruler and the folks you owe money to are Jews - then you have your religious 'leaders' start shrieking about 'usury' and 'witchcraft'!!!  Yes:  money is a dead thing, ut those Jews made it grow somehow (interest):  that's unnatural, its against God....we have to get rid of them NOW before (the next payment comes due!)

So the preachers agitate, and the populace riots - and the Jews come to the ruler seeking protection.....  Which is granted ONLY after they agree to not collect on the ruler's debt.  And then, taking a 'gift' for his 'generosity', the ruler lets them leave his demesne.....


----------



## MHunterB

Why Do People Hate The Jews?

I found this an interesting read.....perhaps others will as well.


----------



## SAYIT

Sunni Man said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a  wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
> The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.
> 
> 
> 
> *XXXXXXX*
> 
> Here is the verse:
> 
> Genesis 16:12    "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."
> 
> 1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.
> 
> 2) It says nothing about muslims.
> 
> 3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.
> 
> Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.
> 
> Very dishonest...........
Click to expand...


You mean like a poster who "borrows" the work of others without crediting his source. 

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...stion-about-jewish-history-3.html#post6911897

That's very dishonest.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Sunni Man said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a  wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
> The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.
> 
> 
> 
> *XXXXXXX*
> 
> Here is the verse:
> 
> Genesis 16:12    "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."
> 
> 1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.
> 
> 2) It says nothing about muslims.
> 
> 3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.
> 
> Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.
> 
> Very dishonest...........
Click to expand...


Honest.  It's generational. 
God, the same God Hagar called out to, said that Abraham would be the father of many nations.  
1. Israel
2.
3.
4.............


----------



## Sunni Man

The Irish Ram said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a  wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
> The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.
> 
> 
> 
> *XXXXXXX*
> 
> Here is the verse:
> 
> Genesis 16:12    "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."
> 
> 1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.
> 
> 2) It says nothing about muslims
> 
> 3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descendents of Ishmael.
> 
> Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.
> 
> Very dishonest...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Honest.  It's generational.
Click to expand...

Then please provide the verses which shows Ishmael's descendents would inherit his behavior? 

And that it is generational?  .........


----------



## SAYIT

Sunni Man said:


> I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.
> 
> Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.
> 
> Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........



But what is the root cause of Arab/Muslim hatred towards Jews and how does it differ from the European/Christian version?


----------



## Indofred

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism



The second event in the link is:

*224 C.E.	Italy	Forced Conversion*

I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
Still nothing.

Can anyone help with this one?


----------



## editec

Indofred said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second event in the link is:
> 
> *224 C.E.	Italy	Forced Conversion*
> 
> I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
> The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
> Still nothing.
> 
> Can anyone help with this one?
Click to expand...


Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.

And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.

Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.

So one can definitely imagine that people *might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches* as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.


----------



## SAYIT

editec said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second event in the link is:
> 
> *224 C.E.	Italy	Forced Conversion*
> 
> I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
> The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
> Still nothing.
> 
> Can anyone help with this one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.
> 
> And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.
> 
> Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.
> 
> So one can definitely imagine that people *might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches* as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.
Click to expand...


I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.


----------



## Sunni Man

SAYIT said:


> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.


True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.

It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........


----------



## editec

SAYIT said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> The second event in the link is:
> 
> *224 C.E.	Italy	Forced Conversion*
> 
> I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
> The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
> Still nothing.
> 
> Can anyone help with this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.
> 
> And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.
> 
> Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.
> 
> So one can definitely imagine that people *might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches* as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.
Click to expand...



Oh I wouldn't doubt that, either.

The question in this case is not_ why _it happened but _IF_ it happened.


----------



## ima

editec said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.
> 
> And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.
> 
> Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.
> 
> So one can definitely imagine that people *might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches* as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I wouldn't doubt that, either.
> 
> The question in this case is not_ why _it happened but _IF_ it happened.
Click to expand...


Probably fueled by plain old greed. Kick them out and take their stuff. Like I said, persecution of minorities isn't limited to Jews. Plus, I already gave you links to why you muslims HAVE to hate Jews.


----------



## Annika55

Indofred said:


> I've been a little too busy with work related stuff to do as much research as I want on this tread but I've bookmarked it for a time when I have.
> I intend to find out as much as I can about the general social situation and that regarding Jews in the areas where massacres and so on took place.
> That way, I hope to see if there were any common factors before each incidence.
> As for Zionism/Israel, that may well be at least a partial cause to today's hate but it doesn't do much to explain the problems of old.
> 
> Working when I get time but I may be starting to lecture on new social studies course so I have to bone up on the course work before  decide whether to take the seat or not.



I think these articles by two religious scholars provide an excellent and thorough analysis of the history of persecution of Jewish people.

Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries


----------



## Annika55

Sunni Man said:


> *109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*
> 
> 
> YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE
> 
> 250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
> 415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
> 554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
> 561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
> 612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
> 642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
> 855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
> 1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
> 1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
> 1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
> 1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
> 1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
> 1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
> 1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
> 1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
> 1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
> 1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
> 1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
> 1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
> 1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
> 1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
> 1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
> 1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
> 1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
> 1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
> 1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
> 1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
> 1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
> 1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
> 1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
> 1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
> 1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
> 1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
> 1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of
> Settlement (Poland/Russia)
> 1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
> 1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
> 1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
> 1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
> 1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
> 1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
> 1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
> 1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
> 1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
> 1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
> 1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries



I believe your mind is closed to any other explanations for Jewish persecution, but two religious scholars offer a thorough explanation for Jew hate at this website.
Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries


----------



## Annika55

I agree that historically Jews were suspicious of outsiders (which may have been part of a survival mechanism), but I do not think Jews refuse to assimilate when they feel secure. I think it is important to point out that over HALF of Jews today are married to NON-JEWS and only a small minority of Jews practice the religion, belong to a synagogue, or attend a synagogue regularly. With these facts, I do not accept that Jewish culture teaches Jews to be arrogant or elitist. Most religions and ethnic groups do try to convey positive images about the group to younger members. Black History month is a way to develop PRIDE in being Black. Many Christian religious groups take pride in their own church while believing very negative things about other Christian groups. Many Muslims are very proud of their religion and culture 
while believing other religions are not "true" religions and there has been 
persecution of minority religious groups in Muslim lands. In other words, most religious and ethnic groups are really just as arrogant and haughty in their religious and ethnic beliefs. I've seen posters here remark on the bravery of Irish soldiers, on the artistic talent of Italians, and on the wisdom and accomplishments of the Greeks. For some reason, Jews seem to be singled out 
for rather typical human behavior.


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.
> 
> 
> 
> True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.
> 
> It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........
Click to expand...


I disagree:  there are people who have never actually MET a Jew and 'dislike' Jews - or blacks, or Hispanics or whoever - so it's obviously based on hearsay and innuendo as opposed to fact and experience.

I suppose there are 'degrees' of bigotry and prejudice - but even a little 'dislike' without an immediate and factual basis is too much for my taste.


----------



## iolo

In addition to the traditional hatred of minorities and the traditional use of this by the extreme right, in Europe at least Jewish people have been forced to 'succeed' if they want to feel safe, and the more successful the better known (hungry East-End Jews are quite out of fashion).   As a result, the inadequate and insecure tend to fear these powerful beings and want them expelled or destroyed.    Aw a muddle!


----------



## MHunterB

From the article Annika cited:

" *It was only in the mid-twentieth century* that the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations issued major statements repudiating this anti-Judaic theology and began a process of constructive Christian-Jewish interaction. "

IOW, imho - it wasn't until the extent and degree of the genocidal actions of Nazi Germany (against LOTS of groups) were made evident, that Christian theologians officially began to seriously reconsider the historic Jew-hatred within their theology.  

ANYONE can only applaud the Churches for that - except of course for the Churches which only got as far as 'we need to convert 'em rather than kill 'em' ....... but still, it's progress.


----------



## MHunterB

Iolo, there are something like 350,000 Jews in NYC living at/below the poverty line - but you'd be surprised how many people refuse to believe there was ever a single Jew who was poor.  (Yes, the stats talk about 150% of the 'poverty income' - but this is NYC! )  

Jewish Poverty FAQs - Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty


----------



## sealadaigh

there is a difference between expressing pride in your ethnicity by saying "we're good" and saying "we're better than.

very early in the discussion is an ecellent example of this and, albeit a bit extreme and lacking in subtlety, is not at all unusual.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean-debate-zone/280516-a-serious-question-about-jewish-history.html

personally, i have no problem acknowledging the acomplihments of jews as a group or as individuals, but some ethnicities do excel in certain areas and my experience has been jewish people interject themselves into the conversation in a manner that seems to be designed to elevate their accomplishments over those of the people in question.

it is the max baer/slapsie maxie rosenbloom paradox i have brought up on occasion.


----------



## sealadaigh

Annika55 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> *109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250*
> 
> 
> YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE
> 
> 250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
> 415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
> 554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
> 561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
> 612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
> 642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
> 855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
> 1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
> 1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
> 1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
> 1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
> 1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
> 1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
> 1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
> 1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
> 1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
> 1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
> 1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
> 1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
> 1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
> 1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
> 1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
> 1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
> 1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
> 1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
> 1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
> 1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
> 1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
> 1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
> 1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
> 1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
> 1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
> 1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
> 1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
> 1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
> 1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
> 1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
> 1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
> 1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
> 1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
> 1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
> 1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
> 1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
> 1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
> 1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
> 1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
> 1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
> 1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
> 1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
> 1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
> 1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
> 1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
> 1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
> 1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
> 1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
> 1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of
> Settlement (Poland/Russia)
> 1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
> 1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
> 1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
> 1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
> 1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
> 1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
> 1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
> 1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
> 1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
> 1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
> 1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
> 1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
> 1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
> 1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe your mind is closed to any other explanations for Jewish persecution, but two religious scholars offer a thorough explanation for Jew hate at this website.
> Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries
Click to expand...


i would expect the ushmm to present something like this. it is nice to have everything wrapped up in a neat little bow.

i mysel prefer the hard science, tabla rasa approach rather than working backwards to prove a conclusion. both have their validity and proponents, of course.

the problem i have with focusing on christianity, and in the above, principally catholicism, is that it ignores other and perhaps more compelling factors.

were this the work of catholicism, or christianity, i would think that it would be more widespread and over an extended period of time. what we have above is isolated cases occurring over different periods of time.

of course, it is hard to seperate the politics from the culture from the accepted faith at the time but too many times, no attempt is even made.

personally, i grew up catholic in europe and america and went to catholic schools and to be honest nwith you, i only recall one almost non-incident in high school  that could even be remotely construed as anti-semitic. kid asks another kid to borrow a quarter in the lunch line. kid says "no" and the the other kid says "don't be a jew."

i am not saying that religion doesn't play a part in it. what i am saying is the vietnam war was not a war between christians and buddhists. it was more than that.


----------



## MHunterB

"there is a diference between expressing pride in your ethnicity by saying "we're good" and saying "we're better than."

*Indeed there is - and yet some seem unable to distinguish between the two.*

"very early in the discussion is an ecellent example of this and, albeit a bit extreme and lacking in subtlety, is not at all unusual."


*To quote someone "could you be any more vague?"   Seriously, if you're going to refer to something , quote it so we can all see 'the original' and eac decide if it fits the interpretation you are putting on it.*


personally, i have no problem acknowledging the acomplihments of jews as a group or as individuals, but some ethnicities do excel in certain areas and my experience has been jewish people interject themselves into the conversation in a manner that seems to be designed to elevate their accomplishments over those of the people in question."

*The last clause of that run-on bit above belies the initial stance - at least as it's written.  The very usage of the phrase 'interject themselves into the conversation' has pejorative connotations and appears hostile in intent.  Likewise the 'seems to be designed' appears not so much a qualifier as another 'subtle' suggestion of machination and manipulation.   And the 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question' is entirely too vague and general to really have much meaning. *

"it is the max baer/slapsie maxie rosenbloom paradox i have brought up on occasion. "

*Speaking of 'interjecting themselves into the conversation' and 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question" - the poster appears to me to be insinuating thy are somehow 'authoritative' on the topic, and their personal views are something to be cited as a reference.  

It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken about the above:  I'm just going on the words as I read them.  Perhaps something was not included which connects those thoughts together and so I've missed it? *


----------



## MHunterB

"Introduction to Gerald S. Sloyan's article on Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries
by 
 Rev. John T. Pawlikowski, OSM, Ph.D. 
Professor of Social Ethics, Catholic Theological Union, Chicago
 Chair, Committee on Ethics, Religion, and the Holocaust, United States Holocaust Memorial Council "

I daresay these two gentlemen have studied, researched and written other articles on the topic NOT in conjunction with any USHMM projects.  They certainly do appear to have the scholarly and religious qualifications.  .....


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> "Introduction to Gerald S. Sloyan's article on Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries
> by
> Rev. John T. Pawlikowski, OSM, Ph.D.
> Professor of Social Ethics, Catholic Theological Union, Chicago
> Chair, Committee on Ethics, Religion, and the Holocaust, United States Holocaust Memorial Council "
> 
> I daresay these two gentlemen have studied, researched and written other articles on the topic NOT in conjunction with any USHMM projects.  They certainly do appear to have the scholarly and religious qualifications.  .....



scholarly and religious qualifications do not necessarily exclude bias.

i am quite sure i can find equally educated scholars that are raging anti-semites and conversely, some that are raging anti-gentile.

it might be of note that pawlikowski was appointed to his position by that notorious anti-semite, jimmy carter.


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> "there is a diference between expressing pride in your ethnicity by saying "we're good" and saying "we're better than."
> 
> *Indeed there is - and yet some seem unable to distinguish between the two.*
> 
> "very early in the discussion is an ecellent example of this and, albeit a bit extreme and lacking in subtlety, is not at all unusual."
> 
> 
> *To quote someone "could you be any more vague?"   Seriously, if you're going to refer to something , quote it so we can all see 'the original' and eac decide if it fits the interpretation you are putting on it.*
> 
> 
> personally, i have no problem acknowledging the acomplihments of jews as a group or as individuals, but some ethnicities do excel in certain areas and my experience has been jewish people interject themselves into the conversation in a manner that seems to be designed to elevate their accomplishments over those of the people in question."
> 
> *The last clause of that run-on bit above belies the initial stance - at least as it's written.  The very usage of the phrase 'interject themselves into the conversation' has pejorative connotations and appears hostile in intent.  Likewise the 'seems to be designed' appears not so much a qualifier as another 'subtle' suggestion of machination and manipulation.   And the 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question' is entirely too vague and general to really have much meaning. *
> 
> "it is the max baer/slapsie maxie rosenbloom paradox i have brought up on occasion. "
> 
> *Speaking of 'interjecting themselves into the conversation' and 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question" - the poster appears to me to be insinuating thy are somehow 'authoritative' on the topic, and their personal views are something to be cited as a reference.
> 
> It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken about the above:  I'm just going on the words as I read them.  Perhaps something was not included which connects those thoughts together and so I've missed it? *



re "vague"...i inadvertantly left out the link...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean-debate-zone/280516-a-serious-question-about-jewish-history.html

whatever marg...your smart. i'm stupid. is that non "run on"-ish enough for your nit pickiness. i very seriously doubt if others had trouble with what i am saying, other than the missed link.


----------



## SAYIT

editec said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.
> 
> And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.
> 
> Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.
> 
> So one can definitely imagine that people *might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches* as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I wouldn't doubt that, either.
> The question in this case is not_ why _it happened but _IF_ it happened.
Click to expand...


There were instances of European monarchs expelling the Jews to avoid repaying debts to Jewish financiers. Anti-Semitism among the masses gave the King cover.


----------



## Sunni Man

SAYIT said:


> There were instances of European monarchs expelling the Jews to avoid repaying debts to Jewish financiers. Anti-Semitism among the masses gave the King cover.


But the question is; Why was there so much alleged anti-semitism among the citizens??  .........


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were instances of European monarchs expelling the Jews to avoid repaying debts to Jewish financiers. Anti-Semitism among the masses gave the King cover.
> 
> 
> 
> But the question is; Why was there so much alleged anti-semitism among the citizens??  .........
Click to expand...


Because it was continually re-inforced by the popular culture of the times - along with the official stance of the religion as taught, depicted in Church art and in 'pop culture' stories.

Do you happen to remember how many Jews there were in England when Chaucer wrote his Canterbury Tales ca 1400?



Officially, NONE.  That's right - those who weren't burnt to death in York in 1291(?) were exiled - and didn't get 're-admitted' until King James (and then ONLY to assure that 'Biblical prophesy' was fulfilled).


----------



## sealadaigh

MHunterB said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "there is a diference between expressing pride in your ethnicity by saying "we're good" and saying "we're better than."
> 
> *Indeed there is - and yet some seem unable to distinguish between the two.*
> 
> "very early in the discussion is an ecellent example of this and, albeit a bit extreme and lacking in subtlety, is not at all unusual."
> 
> 
> *To quote someone "could you be any more vague?"   Seriously, if you're going to refer to something , quote it so we can all see 'the original' and eac decide if it fits the interpretation you are putting on it.*
> 
> 
> personally, i have no problem acknowledging the acomplihments of jews as a group or as individuals, but some ethnicities do excel in certain areas and my experience has been jewish people interject themselves into the conversation in a manner that seems to be designed to elevate their accomplishments over those of the people in question."
> 
> *The last clause of that run-on bit above belies the initial stance - at least as it's written.  The very usage of the phrase 'interject themselves into the conversation' has pejorative connotations and appears hostile in intent.  Likewise the 'seems to be designed' appears not so much a qualifier as another 'subtle' suggestion of machination and manipulation.   And the 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question' is entirely too vague and general to really have much meaning. *
> 
> "it is the max baer/slapsie maxie rosenbloom paradox i have brought up on occasion. "
> 
> *Speaking of 'interjecting themselves into the conversation' and 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question" - the poster appears to me to be insinuating thy are somehow 'authoritative' on the topic, and their personal views are something to be cited as a reference.
> 
> It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken about the above:  I'm just going on the words as I read them.  Perhaps something was not included which connects those thoughts together and so I've missed it? *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> re "vague"...i inadvertantly left out the link...
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean-debate-zone/280516-a-serious-question-about-jewish-history.html
> 
> whatever marg...your smart. i'm stupid. is that non "run on"-ish enough for your nit pickiness. i very seriously doubt if others had trouble with what i am saying, other than the missed link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not 'smart' - I was created to be a proofreader.  Can't 'copy' type at all - opposite hardwiring, lol.
> 
> Your link wasn't specific enough:  it didn't isolate a single post.  Ad if you were referring to Lipush's sig line :  it's obvious you lack comprehension.
Click to expand...


http://www.usmessageboard.com/6871922-post10.html

that should be the one...unless things screw up again...if not...post 10...this thread.


----------



## editec

SAYIT said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I wouldn't doubt that, either.
> The question in this case is not_ why _it happened but _IF_ it happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There were instances of European monarchs expelling the Jews to avoid repaying debts to Jewish financiers. Anti-Semitism among the masses gave the King cover.
Click to expand...


Yes, there were.  

And lets remember that it wasn't always monarchs and not always nations, either.  City states, small kingdoms whose names are largely forgotten today, made up many of the places that we now associate with nations.  I mean there was no Germany or Italy until the 19th century for example.  

I believe (its been a while since I read that history) that ducking out on the Kings debt to the Jews was the motivation for the expulsion of Jews from England in the 13th century.


----------



## ima

Sunni Man said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.
> 
> 
> 
> True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.
> 
> It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........
Click to expand...


But muslims HATE Jews and want to kill them all, I gave you the verses in a previous post. Not just don't like them and don't want to associate with them, that's more how infidels feel towards muslims.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-



They take care of their own and only their own.

for example;  they are jewish Americans

I don't know anyone that says they are muslim Americans, catholic Americans, Southern Baptist Americans, and so on

They separate themselves now so as to claim a victim class and a minority.


----------



## Indofred

Does your hate of Muslims blind you so much, you can't see Muslims are exactly the same as Jews - ie, diverse  in opinions and beliefs?

Muslims and Jews have one common trait. They're individuals that make up a group, not a group consciousness, all of one mind.

Anyway, the first events were clearly nothing to do with Muslims as there was no Islam at that time so, like Sunni, please stop with the hate filled rubbish. 

I have learnt one thing from this thread; some people are so scared of finding out they may have common problems and/or so worried they'll find out their great enemy isn't really an enemy at all, they'll do anything to spam the thread off the boards.

Perhaps the world has no future at all until the rest of us find out there really is an enemy, the people who create and encourage the hate.

I'll bet, if we both managed to get rid of our idiot end, we could all live in peace with each other.


----------



## Indofred

Indofred said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second event in the link is:
> 
> *224 C.E.	Italy	Forced Conversion*
> 
> I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
> The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
> Still nothing.
> 
> Can anyone help with this one?
Click to expand...


Nothing at all.
I must assume error, a typo or a lie but I don't have enough information to decide which one.

On to

325 C.E.	Jerusalem	Expulsion

I'm taking a shot this was Constantine's conversion to Chrisitianity and the earlier revolts against Rome but watch this space.


----------



## Indofred

Now this is interesting.
First Council of Nicaea, set up by Constantine, had to sort of the the sticky questions regarding the bits of Christianity they weren't too keen on.
One of the bits they were messing about with was, the separation of Jewish religious dates with their new versions, all polished up for Christianity, mostly Easter.
The real killer was the council deciding the the Christ dude was in fact the son of God, not a prophet.
That left Jews as the murderer of the son of God - a great way to upset the new Christians.
That put the Jews and Christians at greater odds than before and really bugged both sides but, as the new Christians had the Roman army to solve their problems for them, the Jews didn't stand a chance.
Constantine's idea to rebuild bits of Jerusalem to reflect the bible must have been the last straw.

One more act of stupidity because of religious extremism and people knowing exactly how right they were, thus, how wrong everyone else must be. 
That was an easy one.

What's next?

351 C.E	Persia	Book Burning


----------



## Indofred

Complex one but may be something to do with wars and who was on what side.
Some dude called, "Artaxerxes III" seems to be a big player here but this will take a while to sort out.

I did find one thing of interest to ima.

The Jews of Babylon



> The oldest and most stable of Jewish communities was saved from the Christians by Muslims sweeping through the Middle East.



I don't know if Muslims saving Jews will annoy ima or sunni the most 

I've search a load of sites so far with a wide variety of strings but have found nothing so far about book/scroll/torah/whatever burning.
All the material so far suggests, Jews were generally welcomed in Persia and have been there in peace for a very long time, right up to today.


----------



## Indofred

iolo said:


> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.

I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims. 

I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.
> 
> 
> 
> True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.
> 
> It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But muslims HATE Jews and want to kill them all, I gave you the verses in a previous post. Not just don't like them and don't want to associate with them, that's more how infidels feel towards muslims.
Click to expand...




Indofred said:


> The Jews of Babylon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The oldest and most stable of Jewish communities was saved from the Christians by Muslims sweeping through the Middle East.
Click to expand...



Sorry, what was that about Muslims hating Jews?


----------



## MHunterB

Indofred said:


> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.
> 
> I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.
> 
> I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.
Click to expand...


I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present.  I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.

The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.


----------



## editec

MHunterB said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.
> 
> I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.
> 
> I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present.  I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.
> 
> The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.
Click to expand...


History is complex.

I know it flies in the face of the general POV here, but trying to characterize the relationship between the Jews and Islam in a few single words is just silly.

Islam has been many different things over the last 1400 years, and the Jews have not been the same people everywhere on earth during that time, either.

*XXXXXXX*
They're mostly (I think) not interested in truth.


----------



## SAYIT

MHunterB said:


> "there is a diference between expressing pride in your ethnicity by saying "we're good" and saying "we're better than."
> 
> *Indeed there is - and yet some seem unable to distinguish between the two.*
> 
> "very early in the discussion is an ecellent example of this and, albeit a bit extreme and lacking in subtlety, is not at all unusual."
> 
> 
> *To quote someone "could you be any more vague?"   Seriously, if you're going to refer to something , quote it so we can all see 'the original' and eac decide if it fits the interpretation you are putting on it.*
> 
> 
> personally, i have no problem acknowledging the acomplihments of jews as a group or as individuals, but some ethnicities do excel in certain areas and my experience has been jewish people interject themselves into the conversation in a manner that seems to be designed to elevate their accomplishments over those of the people in question."
> 
> *The last clause of that run-on bit above belies the initial stance - at least as it's written.  The very usage of the phrase 'interject themselves into the conversation' has pejorative connotations and appears hostile in intent.  Likewise the 'seems to be designed' appears not so much a qualifier as another 'subtle' suggestion of machination and manipulation.   And the 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question' is entirely too vague and general to really have much meaning. *
> 
> "it is the max baer/slapsie maxie rosenbloom paradox i have brought up on occasion. "
> 
> *Speaking of 'interjecting themselves into the conversation' and 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question" - the poster appears to me to be insinuating thy are somehow 'authoritative' on the topic, and their personal views are something to be cited as a reference.
> 
> It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken about the above:  I'm just going on the words as I read them.  Perhaps something was not included which connects those thoughts together and so I've missed it? *



Nah, you've pretty much nailed it. Thanks.


----------



## Indofred

editec said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.
> 
> I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.
> 
> I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present.  I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.
> 
> The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> History is complex.
> 
> I know it flies in the face of the general POV here, but trying to characterize the relationship between the Jews and Islam in a few single words is just silly.
> 
> Islam has been many different things over the last 1400 years, and the Jews have not been the same people everywhere on earth during that time, either.
> 
> 
> 
> *They're mostly (I think) not interested in truth*.
Click to expand...



That all sounds about right, the bold mostly so.
I'm reading hundreds of pages from a wide variety of sources and finding out a whole host of things I was simply unaware of.
I fully admit, I had ideas about the Jews having problems based on financial dealings and so on but, so far, that doesn't show up at all.
Same goes for the theory of Jewish ghettos and other commonly held beliefs.

I've also found something else of interest - loads of sites blindly repost the same list as in my OP but no one, of any political or religious ideal, seems to have ever bothered to look at it.
The "I hate Jews" side simply accept it because it shows Jews as total pillocks whilst the Jewish side blindly accept it because it shows how much they need Israel so no one can do it again.
At least two of the first four on the list are looking dodgy at best as there seems to be nothing anywhere to suggest there is any truth in them.
This same list is on as many Jewish sites as you can find and equally farted out on the extreme right, white power sites.
I've also seen it on a few Muslim sites but not all that many.

I'm rather enjoying the challenge and learning rather a lot while I'm at it.


----------



## SAYIT

MHunterB said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.
> 
> I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.
> 
> I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present.  I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.
> 
> The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.
Click to expand...


By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door?


----------



## MHunterB

True, it's not terribly simple.  After all, each one of us - as Fred did indeed point out! - is a complex individual with our own several influences and motivations.

One thing I am certain of, Editec:  whoever claims my calling myself a 'Jewish American' means I'm less a loyal patriotic US citizen than another, is doing so in defiance of the rules of English grammar.

Of course the word order is important in English!  And when one says (anything)- American, the 'American' is the 'noun' and the (whtever) is its adjective/modifier/subset.

OTOH, if I say I'm an 'American (whatever)' - I'm stating that I'm part of the American version of whatever that whatever is.

In either case, the word order is far less important than what I think.  But then it's so easy to decide what I think by laying very much undue stress on the word order, isn't it?

I wish everyone who wants to participate in this forum would read Robert's 'Rules', Strunck & White's 'Elements of Style', Hoffers 'The True Believer', and Lewis' 'The Culture of Poverty':   no doubt there are a few other books to suggest.


----------



## MHunterB

"By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "

Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection....  NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.

The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.


----------



## Indofred

MHunterB said:


> "By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "
> 
> Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection....  NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.
> 
> The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.



The modern state of Israel has very little to do with this thread.
So far, we should be on events in the fourth century.


----------



## SAYIT

Indofred said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "
> 
> Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection....  NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.
> 
> The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The modern state of Israel has very little to do with this thread.
> So far, we should be on events in the fourth century.
Click to expand...


I believe the thrust of Marg's post was the unceremonious beggaring and ejection of Iraq's 2600 year old Jewish community, not the establishment of modern Israel. 
That said I also believe many thoughtful posts from many I thought disinterested in or incapable of such have made their way onto this thread. Nice work, Indo.


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.
> 
> It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But muslims HATE Jews and want to kill them all, I gave you the verses in a previous post. Not just don't like them and don't want to associate with them, that's more how infidels feel towards muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jews of Babylon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The oldest and most stable of Jewish communities was saved from the Christians by Muslims sweeping through the Middle East.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, what was that about Muslims hating Jews?
Click to expand...


It says so in the koran, despite a few muslims helping some Jews the odd time. So far, that's once.


----------



## MHunterB

Indofred said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "
> 
> Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection....  NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.
> 
> The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The modern state of Israel has very little to do with this thread.
> So far, we should be on events in the fourth century.
Click to expand...


I was just using the size of Israel for a comparison, to indicate the amount of acreage 'nationalized' out from under its legal owners of record when their citizenship was stripped from them.  I suppose I could have compared it to the size of Rhode Island....or New Jersey, for that matter.


----------



## ima

In Islam&#8217;s oral tradition, it is believed that killing one Jew is equal to the killing of fifty non-Jewish unbelievers.  Every muslim traditionally learns from the mullahs and seniors&#8212;that they must hate Jews more than any other infidels. All muslims (good or bad) do believe that Jews are the worst enemy of Muslims and they are advised to take cautions when dealing with Jews.


----------



## ima

The Muslim hatred of Jews pre-dates the existence of the modern state of Israel by some 1400 years and is based on verses in the Qur&#8217;an and in the hadiths. From earliest childhood on, Muslim youngsters are brainwashed to believe that Jews are the worst enemy of Allah, with Christians, polytheists, and Hindus coming next. The rationale for this hatred is that everyone must accept Islam, since Muslims believe that it is superior to all other religions and Islam is the only true religion on Earth.


----------



## MHunterB

I don't know about any of that, Ima - what I do know is that each of us is responsible for our won interpetations of Scripture in both Islam and Judaism.

I am less certain about Christian doctrine on this matter.  I do know that Christians claim to have the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding them in their understanding of Scripture.  So my UNEDUCATED GUESS is that someone who is certain without soul-searching and looking for any less hateful interpretation of Christian Scripture than to damn all 'non-believers' en masse, is actually committing the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the HS - by assuming the HS guides one to condemn whole segments of GOD's Children for no overt wrong but only for not being 'Christian'.

I have discussed this idea with several pastors and priests, and they have not rejected it out-of-hand, for all that it comes from a non-Christian.   Some of them have taken it up to their bishops for consultation.....


----------



## PaulS1950

So Muslims believe that theirs is the only true religion - just like Christians , so what.
It doesn't mean that all Christians or all Muslims are going to kill people just because they are a different faith. Throughout history Christians have killed more people in the name of God than any other religion but you can't blame all Chistians for the acts perpetrated by the acts of those radical few anymore than you can blame all Muslims for the acts of those few radicals that we call terrorists today.

There are also many sects of Christianity just as there are many sects of Islam. Some tend to be more radical than others and a few tend to spawn more radicals than others.

This discussion has not been about Jewish history nor has it posed and serious questions. It has been a ranting editorial about the lack of acceptance of the differences between members of different faiths and ideologies proposed by fanactics. 

Each of us has our own path to whatever we see as the end of life on earth and we should try to have the grace to allow others the path which guides them the best. If someone breaks the laws by which we live then they should be punished according to the law of the land. Leave religion to govern the soul and let governments manage the physical world with their laws.


----------



## ima

PaulS1950 said:


> So Muslims believe that theirs is the only true religion - just like Christians , so what.
> It doesn't mean that all Christians or all Muslims are going to kill people just because they are a different faith. Throughout history Christians have killed more people in the name of God than any other religion but you can't blame all Chistians for the acts perpetrated by the acts of those radical few anymore than you can blame all Muslims for the acts of those few radicals that we call terrorists today.
> 
> There are also many sects of Christianity just as there are many sects of Islam. Some tend to be more radical than others and a few tend to spawn more radicals than others.
> 
> This discussion has not been about Jewish history nor has it posed and serious questions. It has been a ranting editorial about the lack of acceptance of the differences between members of different faiths and ideologies proposed by fanactics.
> 
> Each of us has our own path to whatever we see as the end of life on earth and we should try to have the grace to allow others the path which guides them the best. If someone breaks the laws by which we live then they should be punished according to the law of the land. Leave religion to govern the soul and let governments manage the physical world with their laws.



You're missing the point. You can't be a muslim if you don't want infidels killed and if you don't hate Jews. It says so in the koran. You can't pick and choose in Islam.


----------



## MHunterB

Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.

While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.


----------



## ABikerSailor

MHunterB said:


> Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.
> 
> While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.



Interestingly enough, anyone who meditates (Buddhists, Taoists, etc.) actively seeks out that still small voice.

Since God loves us all, wouldn't He allow people to come to Him in the way they could understand Him best?  

Christianity doesn't seem to be seeking out that small voice, but rather more interested in reinforcing the dogma that the preacher puts out.


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> But muslims HATE Jews and want to kill them all, I gave you the verses in a previous post. Not just don't like them and don't want to associate with them, that's more how infidels feel towards muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jews of Babylon
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, what was that about Muslims hating Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It says so in the koran, despite a few muslims helping some Jews the odd time. So far, that's once.
Click to expand...


But you said, Muslims hate Jews.
Now you admit, at least some do not.

End of a stereotype?


----------



## MHunterB

ABikerSailor said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.
> 
> While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, anyone who meditates (Buddhists, Taoists, etc.) actively seeks out that still small voice.
> 
> Since God loves us all, wouldn't He allow people to come to Him in the way they could understand Him best?
> 
> Christianity doesn't seem to be seeking out that small voice, but rather more interested in reinforcing the dogma that the preacher puts out.
Click to expand...


Friends (aka 'Quakers') are Christians, and they meditate.....  So do a lot of people in every religious tradition, particularly the mystics of each faith.

My husband has remarked that the reason he doesn't like being angry is that that is the one emotion which will block him from hearing that voice, and *that* really leaves him uneasy and unable to focus on anything.


----------



## ABikerSailor

MHunterB said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.
> 
> While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, anyone who meditates (Buddhists, Taoists, etc.) actively seeks out that still small voice.
> 
> Since God loves us all, wouldn't He allow people to come to Him in the way they could understand Him best?
> 
> Christianity doesn't seem to be seeking out that small voice, but rather more interested in reinforcing the dogma that the preacher puts out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Friends (aka 'Quakers') are Christians, and they meditate.....  So do a lot of people in every religious tradition, particularly the mystics of each faith.
> 
> My husband has remarked that the reason he doesn't like being angry is that that is the one emotion which will block him from hearing that voice, and *that* really leaves him uneasy and unable to focus on anything.
Click to expand...


Yes, there are certain rare instances where those of a Christian belief sect will meditate, but you've gotta admit.................it's kinda rare, and if you look, most of the sects of Christianity are more interested in reinforcing their dogma than they are in listening to that small voice, because it may challenge their dogma.

And yeah.............you're right..................anger tends to drown that small voice out, but sitting quietly in a nice place (backyard, by a lake, etc.) tends to turn up the volume for that small voice.


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> From earliest childhood on, Muslim youngsters are brainwashed to believe that Jews are the worst enemy of Allah, with Christians, polytheists, and Hindus coming next.



This is not true - I wonder if you've been taught to believe that since your early childhood.

Anyway, back to the point of the thread, understanding history.
I firmly believe, if you understand the past, you'll know a lot more about the present.

The first couple of bits of research have shown it was only extremism that caused problems and was nothing to do with Jews as such, just that an opposing religious belief group knew exactly how right they were and had the muscle to back up what they decided was right.

That, even looking at just two events, has pretty much destroyed the notion, all Jews were attacked for what they did, more for what they believed.
So far, nothing to do with the commonly used stereotypes of Jews being bankers, money lenders and so on, anything to do with Jewish ghettos and no mention of Jews claiming to be superior in any way.
Time yet for these things to be a factor in later events but nothing to do with anything so far. 
So much for the far right websites that use the same list as in my OP to prove how nasty Jews are.  They've clearly never bothered to look at what they post.


----------



## Indofred

I've just found something as interesting as it is off topic.
Israel has a scouting movement, as does Iran.

Common ground based on a Christian set up movement?

Oh, hell, there may even be a chance of friendships building up between Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Better ban them so we can get on with hating each other.



That or encourage them in the hope, future generations don't have to hate each other and die for nothing.


----------



## MHunterB

Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.  

They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.


----------



## MHunterB

Indofred said:


> I've just found something as interesting as it is off topic.
> Israel has a scouting movement, as does Iran.
> 
> Common ground based on a Christian set up movement?
> 
> Oh, hell, there may even be a chance of friendships building up between Christians, Jews and Muslims.
> Better ban them so we can get on with hating each other.
> 
> 
> 
> That or encourage them in the hope, future generations don't have to hate each other and die for nothing.



A Pair of Boy Scouts

Stranger things have happened : ))   This is a true story.


----------



## SAYIT

MHunterB said:


> Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.
> 
> They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.



Rome's Ghetto was ordered by the Pope: 

The Roman Ghetto was established as a result of Papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, promulgated by Pope Paul IV on 14 July 1555. The bull also required the Jews of Rome, which had existed as a community since before Christian times and which numbered about 2,000 at the time, to live in the ghetto. The ghetto was a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. The wall was built under the direction of the architect Giovanni Sallustio Peruzzi. The money for its construction  300 scudi  had to be paid by the Jewish community. The area of Rome chosen for the ghetto was the most undesirable quarter of the city, subject to constant flooding by the Tiber River. At the time of its founding, the four-block area was expected to contain roughly 1,000 inhabitants.
The bull also revoked all the rights of the Jewish community and imposed on Jews a variety of new restrictions such as prohibition on property ownership and practising medicine on Christians and compulsory Catholic sermons on the Jewish shabbat.

Roman Ghetto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Indofred

MHunterB said:


> Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.
> 
> They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.



That is well worth a bit of exploration.
I won't, as usual, accept a non validated post as fact but it fits in perfectly with the point of the thread so has to be worth a closer look.


----------



## Indofred

MHunterB said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've just found something as interesting as it is off topic.
> Israel has a scouting movement, as does Iran.
> 
> Common ground based on a Christian set up movement?
> 
> Oh, hell, there may even be a chance of friendships building up between Christians, Jews and Muslims.
> Better ban them so we can get on with hating each other.
> 
> 
> 
> That or encourage them in the hope, future generations don't have to hate each other and die for nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Pair of Boy Scouts
> 
> Stranger things have happened : ))   This is a true story.
Click to expand...


Quality post.



			
				link said:
			
		

> They're Americans just like us!



There you go. Understand the people are people, not the enemy.

I've managed to work out, Jews are people. I wonder if sunni can do the same and ima can understand Muslims are people as well.


----------



## Indofred

SAYIT said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.
> 
> They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rome's Ghetto was ordered by the Pope:
> 
> The Roman Ghetto was established as a result of Papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, promulgated by Pope Paul IV on 14 July 1555. The bull also required the Jews of Rome, which had existed as a community since before Christian times and which numbered about 2,000 at the time, to live in the ghetto. The ghetto was a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. The wall was built under the direction of the architect Giovanni Sallustio Peruzzi. The money for its construction  300 scudi  had to be paid by the Jewish community. The area of Rome chosen for the ghetto was the most undesirable quarter of the city, subject to constant flooding by the Tiber River. At the time of its founding, the four-block area was expected to contain roughly 1,000 inhabitants.
> The bull also revoked all the rights of the Jewish community and imposed on Jews a variety of new restrictions such as prohibition on property ownership and practising medicine on Christians and compulsory Catholic sermons on the Jewish shabbat.
> 
> Roman Ghetto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


I'm still on the 4th century church against Jews but that could well be the basis of 16th century problems.
Working on it.


----------



## Indofred

357 C.E.	Italy	Property Confiscation

Bugger.

I've just written a long post with a pile of links to show this one to be a selectively true listing but lost it with a wrong click of the mouse.

Seems the Roman empire was a massive slave trader as a nationalised business and the Jews were a big competitor.
Constantine II issued laws that forbade Jews from owning pretty much any slave unless that slave was also Jewish.
That gave the Romans a massive trading advantage as they could own anyone.
Also, slaved forcibly circumcised were freed and the Jewish slave owner, killed.
No person may convert to become a Jew without the state taking all his property as was the case with any non Jew who married a Jew.

The listing, I believe, was designed to suggest real estate was taken from Jews - this doesn't seem to be the case with the exceptions listed above.
So, it wasn't a general thing but a very selective one.

Of course, that's hardly justification, but at least I have a far better idea than I did two days ago.
Constantine II was clearly anti Jewish but I suspect he was as much pro cash and was very probably profiting from the slave trade.


----------



## Indofred

Next up

379 C.E.	Milan	Synagogue Burning


----------



## Indofred

379 seems to be noted only on copies of the list in my OP.
This appears to be another mistake but only in date.

What impact did the Holocaust have during World War 2



> 379 A.D.
> Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." ... St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.



As a rule, I'm usually not too keen on using wiki but this is backed up in numerous sites, mostly Jewish but also Christian.

Dates seem to be in dispute but reputable sites all seem to agree on the details.

Some bishop dude, thought he'd be doing God's work and gain a seat at God's right hand if he burned a few Jews out of their place of worship.
Emperor Theodosius told the silly bugger who'd burnt it down to get a new one built at their own expense but a somewhat wild, and probably power hungry idiot known as Ambrose of Milan, called the emperor, a Jew, and told the bishop not to bother.
This event is the first one where I've noticed Jews mentioned as bankers and money lenders but NOT as part of this event, more in other countries in the same time period.

This seems to be another case of Christian extremists getting their own back for the nasty Jews killing the bloke who they'd decided was the son of God just a few years earlier at the first council of Nicaea.
That event, for those who don't know, was the one where Jesus was defined as 'God the son', thus making Jews really nasty.
Those who disagreed with this ruling, notably Arius, had their books burnt and were generally not invited to parties.
His death could also be considered a little odd.
He died after a massive case of the runs, so bad, bits of his body came out with the poo.
It may just have been a massive infection or growth of some sort but there was speculation of poisoning.
No one will ever know.

Next up
415 C.E.	Alexandria	Expulsion


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> 379 seems to be noted only on copies of the list in my OP.
> This appears to be another mistake but only in date.
> 
> What impact did the Holocaust have during World War 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 379 A.D.
> Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." ... St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a rule, I'm usually not too keen on using wiki but this is backed up in numerous sites, mostly Jewish but also Christian.
> 
> Dates seem to be in dispute but reputable sites all seem to agree on the details.
> 
> Some bishop dude, thought he'd be doing God's work and gain a seat at God's right hand if he burned a few Jews out of their place of worship.
> Emperor Theodosius told the silly bugger who'd burnt it down to get a new one built at their own expense but a somewhat wild, and probably power hungry idiot known as Ambrose of Milan, called the emperor, a Jew, and told the bishop not to bother.
> This event is the first one where I've noticed Jews mentioned as bankers and money lenders but NOT as part of this event, more in other countries in the same time period.
> 
> This seems to be another case of Christian extremists getting their own back for the nasty Jews killing the bloke who they'd decided was the son of God just a few years earlier at the first council of Nicaea.
> That event, for those who don't know, was the one where Jesus was defined as 'God the son', thus making Jews really nasty.
> Those who disagreed with this ruling, notably Arius, had their books burnt and were generally not invited to parties.
> His death could also be considered a little odd.
> He died after a massive case of the runs, so bad, bits of his body came out with the poo.
> It may just have been a massive infection or growth of some sort but there was speculation of poisoning.
> No one will ever know.
> 
> Next up
> 415 C.E.	Alexandria	Expulsion
Click to expand...


A call by the supreme Islamic leader of Iran for Moslems to rise up and kill Jews and annihilate the Jewish state of Israel and be able to do that, as they say, in nine minutes is a page right out of Bible prophecy for the last days.

Iran?s supreme Islamic leader says Muslims must kill Jews and annihilate Israel and they can do that in just nine minutes « vineoflife.net


----------



## Sunni Man

ima said:


> A call by the supreme Islamic leader of Iran for Moslems to rise up and kill Jews and annihilate the Jewish state of Israel and be able to do that, as they say, in nine minutes is a page right out of Bible prophecy for the last days.
> 
> Iran?s supreme Islamic leader says Muslims must kill Jews and annihilate Israel and they can do that in just nine minutes « vineoflife.net


^^^^


----------



## Indofred

I'm trying to understand the problems faced by Jews regarding items on the list up to Nazi Germany.


I want well thought out, intelligent posts (with links), regarding items on the list in my OP, not blind hate crap.
This is about the early history of the Jews and what has happened to them.
It stuck me, the list was reposted everywhere but no one seems to have bothered to look closely at it.


415 C.E.	Alexandria	Expulsion

Give it a go. Searching is taking about two days per event - Are you able to give it a try?


----------



## Indofred

Oddly enough, silly hate seems to be the cause of all events so far, not anything the Jews of the times actually did.
That and business rivals in the Roman slave trade where one end of the fight had a ruddy great big army to make sure he won the day.
The stereotypes of money lending and so on have not really shown up regarding any item on the list.

The thing of greatest interest is that lack of stereotypical behaviour we normally hear spewed out against Jews.
As I mentioned, I'm only up to the fifth century so plenty of time for other factors to come into play.

My personal understanding of that section of history is improving by the day.


----------



## ima

Sure. No problem.

Why Middle East Muslims are taught to hate Jews:

Egypt&#8217;s newly elected president, Mohamed Morsi, was caught on tape about three years ago urging his followers to &#8220;nurse our children and our grandchildren on hatred&#8221; for Jews and Zionists. Not long after, the then-leader of the Muslim Brotherhood described Zionists as &#8220;bloodsuckers who attack the Palestinians,&#8221; &#8220;warmongers,&#8221; and &#8220;descendants of apes and pigs.&#8221;
Why Middle East Muslims are taught to hate Jews - CSMonitor.com


----------



## HUGGY

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-



Jews believe that they are "Chosen" by god.  They believe that this choosing makes them special and above others in worth as human beings.  Of course this belief is nonsense as there is no god in the first place.  People that believe they are better than others are irritating at the least and dangerous at worst.  Jews are dangerous.  They are dangerous to all people including thier own kind.  If the wealthy Jews in Europe had invested in the defense of thier own communities when NAZISM got started then Hitler would have been a dead man long before he got the ball rolling.  BUT that's not how Jews operate.  They were selfish individually.  That makes them disgusting in many peoples eyes.  They think because they see themselves as special and more deserving of consideration than other peoples they use this failed ideology to suck resources from good countries like the USA and therefor are leaches on society and humankind as a whole.  The world would not be perfect without Jews...but it would be better.  I know that is a harsh viewpoint.  Bad people need punished.  I didn't make them assholes.  AND I certainly won't make excuses for them being assholes.


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's Fred's thread, and if he wants to stick with the chronological order, why don't you just be patient and wait 'til he gets to you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of today's anti-semitism comes from muslims. Deal with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may or may not be true. Start a thread to explore it but this is about Jewish problems pre Nazi Germany and my wish to understand it.
> I'm rather hoping others can share in my education.
> I have to be honest; I wasn't expecting to find what I have and that's made me all the more interested to find out what other things I'm wrong about.
> Please stop the trolling as I don't want this thread closed.
> However, when I'm on the computer later, I'll copy my posts regarding each event so I don't lose them if the hate people troll the thread into the dustbin.
Click to expand...


When you're finished, you should write a book: Justifications of today's muslim rabid anti-semitism.


----------



## Indofred

HUGGY said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jews believe that they are "Chosen" by god.  .
Click to expand...


Please provide links to reputable sites that demonstrate this was a factor in any of the events on the OP list.
So far, I've found nothing to suggest this up to the 5th century.
The events I've managed to find details of so far, suggest the "They killed Christ" argument along with powerful business rivals, not anything the Jews of the time did wrong.

I have to admit, I wasn't expecting this so, if you have actual evidence, please post it (with the links).
If not, your post is of no value as it's purely an unsupported accusation, not a fact.


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jews believe that they are "Chosen" by god.  .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please provide links to reputable sites that demonstrate this was a factor in any of the events on the OP list.
> So far, I've found nothing to suggest this up to the 5th century.
> The events I've managed to find details of so far, suggest the "They killed Christ" argument along with powerful business rivals, not anything the Jews of the time did wrong.
> 
> I have to admit, I wasn't expecting this so, if you have actual evidence, please post it (with the links).
> If not, your post is of no value as it's purely an unsupported accusation, not a fact.
Click to expand...


According to Jewish belief, Jews are the Chosen People because they were chosen to make the idea of one God known to the world.

The Meaning of Jews as the Chosen People

There, happy?


----------



## Indofred

Just to point something out.

As I get down the list, if there are crimes against Jews by Muslims, I will post them in the same way as I've done for the other items and with as much reasoning as I can find.
If Muslim groups are guilty, I'll post it regardless of what anyone may think and, if that's what I find, I have no intention of making any excuses for them.

There is nothing pro Muslim about this thread - just an attempt to review and understand history as in the list, up to Nazi Germany.

I've left the Nazis out because I don't want silly bickering about the truth of the holocaust.
Now, please let me get on with it and, please, post of you have anything helpful in the quest to understand.


----------



## Indofred

ima said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> When you're finished, you should write a book: Justifications of today's muslim rabid anti-semitism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Post reported *- sorry but you're deliberately trying to spam the thread off the boards.
> That would be a great pity as I'm learning a lot about history and I know a few other posters are interested in doing the same.
> No room for blind hate on this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's just a suggestion and on topic for this thread. In 15 years, when you get to today's reasons for Jewish hate, my posts will be waiting for you.
Click to expand...


That's a whole new thread and one I intend to start in CDZ as soon as time permits.
That's an interesting subject but I think it'll be hard to get clear, factual and unemotional replies.
That's what I'm informed CDZ is for, a place where real issues can be examined without all the hate rubbish.
Question is, if such a thread appeared, and I would send the OP to the mods before I posted it, could posters behave like adults, not wildcats?

However, hard day today, marking mid term exams tomorrow morning so I'll have a go in the afternoon.


----------



## PaulS1950

Shall we remember that Christianity and later, Islam both came as reforms or extensions of Judism.
Is it unusual that rebellious children say they hate their parents?
Those who founded Christianity were Jews.


----------



## Indofred

PaulS1950 said:


> Shall we remember that Christianity and later, Islam both came as reforms or extensions of Judism.
> Is it unusual that rebellious children say they hate their parents?
> Those who founded Christianity were Jews.



I have yet to find evidence the 'naughty child' factor was the cause of problems but it may well be part of it and I've yet to get to the Muslim era.
Most so far seems to be from the first council deciding Christ was the son of God, thus Jews murdered God on Earth.
That and naughty Roman business ideals.

I've been a bit busy and feeling crap over the weekend so didn't do anything serious on the net but I intend to start the next event this evening.


----------



## Indofred

415 C.E.	Alexandria	Expulsion

Pope Theophilus of Alexandria died in 412 AD but I suspect his tactics may have had a lot to do with this one.
The pope dude was, according to Edward Gibbon, the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue, a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold and with blood.
Seems his habit was to start a conflict he know he could easily win, then kill as many non Christians as he could. He did this with a pagan temple and, I suspect, his followers learnt a few things from him.

The newly dead Pope was replaced by a bloke called, Cyril of Alexandria.
Whilst I find "Cyril" to be a really odd name for a mass murdering bastard, seems he'd learnt well from old Alex and did about the same sort of stuff.
Best I can tell, the pagans, Christians and Jews were pretty much almost at war most of the time but Cyril (Doesn't he sound gay?), wanted his slice of the cake to be biggest so he engineered a situation that he knew the local Jews would never accept.
It would seem, the Jews were pretty much accepted and even ran, with consent, many public offices.
There doesn't seem to be any public disquiet against Jews.
Cyril seems to have used gangs of mad monks to do his dirty work, pretty much as the EDL do with football hooligans today.
Anyway, the long and short is, the Jews got pissed off, rioted but were suckered as Cyril had already sorted out their defeat.
He used that one to have them all booted out of the city.
The victor, as we know, writes history so a lot of accounts favour the Christian view, the Jews were total bastards out for a fight and total power.
Of course, there may well be a level of truth in this but I get the idea, the biggest criminal was Cyril.

There we have it. Greed strikes again, not a lot to do with anything the Jews actually did, more how they were set up to take a fall.


----------



## Indofred

Starting on:
418 C.E.	Minorca	Forced Conversion

This looks like a well researched subject, thus easy to sort out.
Luckily, Severus of Minorca wrote a letter (Epistula Severi), explaining and documenting the forced conversions.
Bradbury (Oxford Christian texts) and Lotter (Union of world Jewish studies) have translated and explained this event in detail.
It seems, Severus, the new and mainly zealot of a bishop, was seriously anti Jewish so he burnt down a synagogue and forced 500 Jews to convert to Christianity.
ALL accounts suggest previous good relations between the Christian and Jewish communities until Severus stuck his nose in and caused trouble.
The Jews seem to have held several high ranking political positions but by consent and with no descent until Severus arrived.

There is no argument as all leading researchers agree on the events and all suggest Severus was the cause.

There we have it.
One extremist with a small band of fools causing problems for everyone.


----------



## Intense

*This is the CDZ. Let's stay on topic, and remain civil. *


----------



## Indofred

Next up
469 C.E.	Ipahan	Holocaust

I suspect a major event (if that's what it was) may take a little more sorting out.
Working.


----------



## ima

Indofred said:


> Next up
> 469 C.E.	Ipahan	Holocaust
> 
> I suspect a major event (if that's what it was) may take a little more sorting out.
> Working.



Wasn't the Jews fault. Next.


----------



## Indofred

Indofred said:


> Next up
> 469 C.E.	Ipahan	Holocaust
> 
> I suspect a major event (if that's what it was) may take a little more sorting out.
> Working.



More sorting out than I expected.
Records of the time are confusing at best and accounts seem to vary.

King Bahram II (276&#8211;293 CE) seems to have claimed to have smashed the false religions, Christians and Jews amongst them.
Shapur I seems to have been pro Jewish as was Shapur II, ruler up to 379 AD.

According to &#352;ahris-t&#257;nih&#257; &#299; &#274;r&#257;n, Yazdegerd (r. 399-421), who's wife may have been Jewish, settled Jews in Jay.
The problem seems to have been with king P&#275;r&#333;z (r. 459-84) who ordered a massacre that killed half the Jews in the city and enslaved their sons.
According to &#7716;amza E&#7779;fah&#257;ni, these events took place in or about the year 472.
The rumour was, Jews had flayed alive two Zoroastrian priests and used their skins in their tanning industry.

There is a problem. So far I've found nothing at all to back the &#7716;amza E&#7779;fah&#257;ni account of events - not a  sausage.
This event, so far, remains clouded in the mists of time.
If anyone can help, I'd he grateful.


----------



## editec

Indofred said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.
> 
> They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is well worth a bit of exploration.
> I won't, as usual, accept a non validated post as fact but it fits in perfectly with the point of the thread so has to be worth a closer look.
Click to expand...


I don't know about the exact date, but YES, the word Ghetto means WALL and it became a word used by Jews to describe the neighborhood they were exiled into.

OOPS!

I stand corrected by myself 

*Etymology*



> Dictionaries list a number of possible origins for the originally Italian term, including "gheto" or "ghet", _which means slag or waste in Venetian_, and was used in this sense in a reference to a foundry where slag was stored located on the same island as the area of Jewish confinement (the Venetian Ghetto),[2] and borghetto, diminutive of borgo 'borough'.[3]


----------



## Indofred

editec said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.
> 
> They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is well worth a bit of exploration.
> I won't, as usual, accept a non validated post as fact but it fits in perfectly with the point of the thread so has to be worth a closer look.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know about the exact date, but YES, the word Ghetto means WALL and it became a word used by Jews to describe the neighborhood they were exiled into.
> 
> OOPS!
> 
> I stand corrected by myself
> 
> *Etymology*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dictionaries list a number of possible origins for the originally Italian term, including "gheto" or "ghet", _which means slag or waste in Venetian_, and was used in this sense in a reference to a foundry where slag was stored located on the same island as the area of Jewish confinement (the Venetian Ghetto),[2] and borghetto, diminutive of borgo 'borough'.[3]
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


That may well be useful for events further down the list - cheers.


----------



## richstacy

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-


 
I believe it has been largely the false belief, often perpetuated by the Church, that Jews were responsible for the Death of Jesus.  In fact one needs look no further than this to discount such beliefs:  The following people were Jewish: Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Peter, Mathew, Luke, John, Paul etc, etc etc.  It is impossible to hate Jews without hating them as well.

Of course there were some Jews who were for getting rid of Jesus, Just as there were some Christians who  burned witches and heretics at the stake, and extracted confessions with thumbscrews.


----------



## Indofred

richstacy said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it has been largely the false belief, often perpetuated by the Church, that Jews were responsible for the Death of Jesus.  In fact one needs look no further than this to discount such beliefs:  The following people were Jewish: Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Peter, Mathew, Luke, John, Paul etc, etc etc.  It is impossible to hate Jews without hating them as well.
> 
> Of course there were some Jews who were for getting rid of Jesus, Just as there were some Christians who  burned witches and heretics at the stake, and extracted confessions with thumbscrews.
Click to expand...


This seems to have been used by the early church for its own reasons, commonly cash.


----------



## ima

richstacy said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it has been largely the false belief, often perpetuated by the Church, that Jews were responsible for the Death of Jesus.  In fact one needs look no further than this to discount such beliefs:  The following people were Jewish: Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Peter, Mathew, Luke, John, Paul etc, etc etc.  It is impossible to hate Jews without hating them as well.
> 
> Of course there were some Jews who were for getting rid of Jesus, Just as there were some Christians who  burned witches and heretics at the stake, and extracted confessions with thumbscrews.
Click to expand...


There's not even any real proof that Jesus even existed, Fred, is that the Jews fault as well?


----------



## editec

FYI

Partisans write their version of history and then REAL HISTORIANS write REAL HISTORY _when they can._

Now do NOT tell me that the majority of you didn't once believe that the Pyramids were build by the Jews because I know damned well that that was the commonly understood history most of us were taught.

That FALSE history was brought to you by partisans.

Now thanks mostly to acheologists' findings of the records of how many people worked on those structures, and of the pay records of the workers who build them , HISTORY can finally lay that MYTH to rest.

I do not doubt many of us want to reject those findings because they don't jibe with our cherised beliefs.

History doesn't care what we want to believe.

History doesn't make moral arguments.

History just reports the verifiable facts _as it uncovers them._

HISTORY, much like the physical sciences, REVISES ITSELF _when new facts come to light._

In fact, that's what ALL real social sciences strive to do.

They report what they THINK they know, _and when they find they were wrong, they report that they were wrong, too._

It's called* INTELLECTUAL HONESTY.*

Practice that and you will never again CARE if somebody proves you wrong.

In fact, when they do, YOU WILL THANK THEM for showing you the errors in your thinking.


----------



## ThirdTerm

False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations. 



> North African Jews constitute the second largest Jewish Diaspora group. However, their relatedness to each other; to European, Middle Eastern, and other Jewish Diaspora groups; and to their former North African non-Jewish neighbors has not been well defined. Here, genome-wide analysis of five North African Jewish groups (Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Djerban, and Libyan) and comparison with other Jewish and non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive North African Jewish population clusters with proximity to other Jewish populations and variable degrees of Middle Eastern, European, and North African admixture. Two major subgroups were identified by principal component, neighbor joining tree, and identity-by-descent analysis&#8212;Moroccan/Algerian and Djerban/Libyan&#8212;that varied in their degree of European admixture. These populations showed a high degree of endogamy and were part of a larger Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish group. By principal component analysis, these North African groups were orthogonal to contemporary populations from North and South Morocco, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. Thus, this study is compatible with the history of North African Jews&#8212;founding during Classical Antiquity with proselytism of local populations, followed by genetic isolation with the rise of Christianity and then Islam, and admixture following the emigration of Sephardic Jews during the Inquisition.
> http://www.pnas.org/content/109/34/13865.full?sid=1e36b837-72c9-4898-91ae-5d0a199df534


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## PaulS1950

I don't know what school you were in that taught you that the Jews built the pyramids but I was never taught that and I have gone through a lot of schooling. I have a masters in theology and history of religions.


----------



## Indofred

Again.
This thread is nothing to do with the last 100 years or daft name calling.
I want to understand a little of history.
This thread is about understanding - not hate.


----------



## Indofred

ThirdTerm said:


> False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations.



This seems to have been at least part of some of the events I've looked at but by no means a major factor (up to now).
It'll be interesting to see how (if) those stereotypes develop as cause of events as I wander through history.


----------



## Indofred

I'd also like to thank the mod team for keeping this thread open.
I know you guys had reservations and I know it's been a bit of a pain for you.

Thank you.


----------



## Indofred

PaulS1950 said:


> I don't know what school you were in that taught you that the Jews built the pyramids but I was never taught that and I have gone through a lot of schooling.* I have a masters in theology and history of religions*.



Sir, I would love your input and opinions as to my conclusions.
I have no history degree and can't even claim to be an interested amateur, just some dude out to sort out what happened.
I welcome your input.


----------



## editec

PaulS1950 said:


> I don't know what school you were in that taught you that the Jews built the pyramids but I was never taught that and I have gone through a lot of schooling. I have a masters in theology and history of religions.




Oh I don't think it was taught IN SCHOOLS, Paul.

But that myth was commonly thought to be the case by most people most of my lifetime.


There was a time, and I suspect for a lot of people that time hasn't yet passed, when the Exodus story also included the myth that the Egyptians kept the Jews in slavery (not true) and that as slaves it was the Jews who built the pyramids.

The idea that slaves (be they Jews or Egyptians) were the laborers who built the pyramids was pretty much accepted theory UNTIL acheologists found more and more evidence to refute that theory.

History, much like physical sciences, corrects itself as more information comes to light.

This gradual death of this cherished myth is a fairly good example of that.


----------



## ThirdTerm

Indofred said:


> ThirdTerm said:
> 
> 
> 
> False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This seems to have been at least part of some of the events I've looked at but by no means a major factor (up to now).
> It'll be interesting to see how (if) those stereotypes develop as cause of events as I wander through history.
Click to expand...


The official persecutions of the Jews began only in 1856, when Roumania adopted the representative system and the power thus fell into the hands of the bourgeois class. Thenceforth restrictive measures grew more serious. The Jews could not obtain any rank, they were deprived of the right of permanent domicile in country places, they were forbidden to hold real estateexcept in citiesor lands, or vineyards. They were prohibited to take estates on lease, to keep hotels and taverns outside of cities, to retail spirits, to have Christian domestics, to build new synagogues. What were, what are still the causes of this special legislation, and of this animosity of the Roumanians towards the Jews? They are not exclusively religious, and despite the persistence of ancestral prejudices, it is not a case of a confessional war.* The Roumanian Jews constituted, especially at the moment of the formation of Roumania, agglomerations completely isolated from the bulk of the population in the Moldau-Valachian lands. They wore a special garb, lived in quarters set apart in order to escape contaminations, and spoke a Judaeo-German jargon, which rounded off their marks of distinction. They lived under the domination of their rabbis, narrow-minded, limited, ignorant Talmudists, from whom they received in Jewish schoolshederan education which was conducive to their intellectual abasement and their degradation. They were the victims of this isolation which was due to their guides, the rabbinists. *The patriotic passions were particularly aroused in this land, which was being born, was acquiring a[103] nationality and striving for unity. There has been a pan-Roumanism, just like pan-Germanism or pan-Slavism. There were discussions on the Roumanian race, on its integrity, its purity, the danger threatening it from adulteration.  Associations were formed to counteract foreign encroachment, and Jewish encroachment in particular.

Internet History Sourcebooks Project


----------



## ima

Just a question: how can you have a serious debate when posts keep getting deleted?


----------



## richstacy

ThirdTerm said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ThirdTerm said:
> 
> 
> 
> False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This seems to have been at least part of some of the events I've looked at but by no means a major factor (up to now).
> It'll be interesting to see how (if) those stereotypes develop as cause of events as I wander through history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The official persecutions of the Jews began only in 1856, when Roumania adopted the representative system and the power thus fell into the hands of the bourgeois class. Thenceforth restrictive measures grew more serious. The Jews could not obtain any rank, they were deprived of the right of permanent domicile in country places, they were forbidden to hold real estateexcept in citiesor lands, or vineyards. They were prohibited to take estates on lease, to keep hotels and taverns outside of cities, to retail spirits, to have Christian domestics, to build new synagogues. What were, what are still the causes of this special legislation, and of this animosity of the Roumanians towards the Jews? They are not exclusively religious, and despite the persistence of ancestral prejudices, it is not a case of a confessional war.* The Roumanian Jews constituted, especially at the moment of the formation of Roumania, agglomerations completely isolated from the bulk of the population in the Moldau-Valachian lands. They wore a special garb, lived in quarters set apart in order to escape contaminations, and spoke a Judaeo-German jargon, which rounded off their marks of distinction. They lived under the domination of their rabbis, narrow-minded, limited, ignorant Talmudists, from whom they received in Jewish schoolshederan education which was conducive to their intellectual abasement and their degradation. They were the victims of this isolation which was due to their guides, the rabbinists. *The patriotic passions were particularly aroused in this land, which was being born, was acquiring a[103] nationality and striving for unity. There has been a pan-Roumanism, just like pan-Germanism or pan-Slavism. There were discussions on the Roumanian race, on its integrity, its purity, the danger threatening it from adulteration. Associations were formed to counteract foreign encroachment, and Jewish encroachment in particular.
> 
> Internet History Sourcebooks Project
Click to expand...

 
Of course countless acts of hatred toward Jews had gone on for many centuries before your "official persecution" began in 1856.

http://antisemitism.org.il/article/77447/blood-libel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anti-Semitism


----------



## Coyote

ima said:


> Just a question: how can you have a serious debate when posts keep getting deleted?



*Ima, this is the Clean Debate Zone.  If anyone is confused, read up on the rules and consider responses carefully.  This is the most moderated zone, there are other less moderated areas for uncivil serious debate.

Baiting with no relevant content, name calling, inflammatory responses belong elsewhere.*


----------



## ima

Coyote said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a question: how can you have a serious debate when posts keep getting deleted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Ima, this is the Clean Debate Zone.  If anyone is confused, read up on the rules and consider responses carefully.  This is the most moderated zone, there are other less moderated areas for uncivil serious debate.
> 
> Baiting with no relevant content, name calling, inflammatory responses belong elsewhere.*
Click to expand...

Ok, didn't know that the debate here is supposed to be edited, anyways, I was just responding to someone else's post that also got erased. Thanks.


----------



## Kalki

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-




It is human nature.  People are comfortable with their own kind.  This identification can be with people who share the same ideology, genetic traits, temperament, etc.

Most people are not comfortable with people who are not of their own kind, in these ways.  People who are against racism, are not comfortable with people who are not, even if they are of the same genetic patterns, for example - this is due to the anti-racist being uncomfortable with the racist, and vice versa, or discomfort from "the other" regarding ideologies.

That is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for the escalation of the being-uncomfortable developing into verbal assertion, and/or acting on that discomfort.

Look at the governments and authorities of the world: they act like tribes, even when they are dealing with their "cousins" in another nation or any nation.  Look at the social events in your community, there are always people who do not like each other and the feeling is often mutual, even from the same ideology group, and same tribe or family.  This exists everywhere.

Jews have been without a land of their own since Tisha B'av AM 3892 when the Romans crushed the Bar Kokhba's revolt; destroyed the 2nd temple; banned Jews from Judah and changed the name to Syrian Palestine to wipe the name of Judah of the map.  The Romans had already expelled Jews from Rome in 139 BCE, 19 CE, and 41-54 CE.  Then, the Romans had three revolts of Jews in 70 CE, 115-117 CE, and finally the Bar Kokhba Revolt.  The diaspora had already happened long before the Roman dispersal, however.  Jews were all over the ancient world before Judah was destroyed.

Prior to the forced removal from Judah, Jews had been expelled from Egypt in 1313 BCE; deported from Canaan in 722 BCE by the Assyrians; deported again and held captive in 597 BCE by the Babylonians; almost experienced massacre from the Persians in 520 BCE, but mass murdered the enemies instead.

A list was presented of 109 places (or times) Jews have been expelled from in less than 2000 years, earlier in the thread.  The list was not complete, in the sense that Jews were persecuted many more times in that span and many times long before the first listing of Carthage.

Jews have kept themselves alive as a people without a separate piece of land throughout history for over 3300 years.  The only way this is possible is by holding oneself or one's group separate from the society.  It is impossible to do this without having a strong ethnic identity and a strong desire to retain that ethnic identity at all costs.  In other words, the basis of racism.  Notice, racism has taken on a negative meaning only in the past 40 years or so, but prior to that it was considered a virtue, and still is among many people of all tribes, including Jews.

Therefore, the problem is not one of blaming either side for being racist, because both sides were and are, and it wasn't always about the ethnic identity, it could also include the ideology differences.

This type of discussion today is not easy to have, because the ruling powers will only allow the discussion to go in the direction of what the people who regulate speech, want it to go in.  It is no longer possible to criticize Jews in the West.  Jews are free to criticize whites, because the people who control the public dialogue no longer identify with 'being-white' or 'being-Christian' or 'being'-whatever' and they do not mind if Jews retain their identity, or they do not dare to speak up and if that is the case it means they lost power over their nations.  Jews are still free to retain their identity and Jews will do so, but the West is no longer allowed to retain their identity.  Jews will be here in 3300 more years, but whites will not exist, neither will Christians.  Did white people invent and teach themselves that it is wrong to have an identity?  Or did someone else do this to them?  The immigration policies of the authorities in the Western nations are guaranteed to bring about the destruction of the identity of those nations, and this is not an accident.  Israel is however an ethnic state, along with most other non-Western nations.  See the coerced immigration policies in the West, for example.

There were different reasons given for the pogroms and expulsions and such of Jews, throughout history.  Primarily the base of it was being different and retaining that difference for 3000 years.  However, there were some common complaints:

1) Jews instigate revolts and rebellions against the authorities and hold themselves separate.  See, e.g., the statements made by the Roman statesmen, the National Socialists, the Russian czars, Henry Ford, Eustace Mullins, Francisco Franco, Voltaire, Nesta Webster, Hilaire Belloc, A.N. Field, Diodorus Siculus, Benjamin Freedman, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Philostratus, Tacitus, Cicero, Dennis Wise, Thomas Goodrich, and many others_._

"In everything we are destroyers - even in the instruments of destruction to which  we turn for relief [...] We Jews, we, the destroyers forever.  Nothing that you will do will meet our needs or demands" ('You Gentiles' by Maurice Samuel).
Maurice Samuel

"We must realize that our Party's most powerful weapon is racial tension.  By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by the whites, we can mold them to the program of the communist party.  In America, we will aim for subtle victory.  While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will instill into the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negroes.  We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negroe will be able to intermarry with the whites, and begin a process which will deliver America into our hands" ("A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century", and entered into the US Congressional Record, 1957, page 8559 by Israel Cohen).

"Thus, it would seem as if the grievance of the anti-Semite were well founded; the Jewish spirit is essentially a revolutionary spirit, and consciously or otherwise, the Jew is a revolutionist.  The tendencies of his nature and direction of his sympathies made it inevitable that the Jew should play an important part in the revolutions of history; and such a part he has not failed to play" ('Antisemitism, Its History and Causes' by Bernard Lazare).

2) Jews are not like "us" whichever nation that was, e.g., Christians (forced conversions) or Libyans (Gaddafi expelled them from Libya in 1970) or Blacks (Haiti and slave plantation nations in Caribbean) or Whites (Europe).

"Anti-semitism is nothing but the antagonistic attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish group [...] The Jewish group has thrived on opposition and on the antagonism it has forever met in the world [...] The Jew who abandons his faith [...] remains a Jew" - Albert Einstein, quoted in 'Collier's', November 26, 1938

"The Jew remains a Jew even though he changes his religion; a Christian which would adopt the Jewish religion would not become a Jew, because the quality of a Jew is not in the religion but in the race.  A Free-thinker and atheist always remains a Jew" (Jewish World, December 14, 1922).

3) Jews are morally inferior, oftentimes with allegations of spreading the plague or poisoning wells and such, see, e.g., "This worship, however introduced, is upheld by its antiquity; all their other customs, which are at once perverse and disgusting, owe their strength to their very badness. The most degraded out of other races, scorning their national beliefs, brought to them their contributions and presents. This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to shew compassion, though they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies [...] While the East was under the sway of the Assyrians, the Medes, and the Persians, Jews were the most contemptible of the subject tribes. When the Macedonians became supreme, King Antiochus strove to destroy the national superstition, and to introduce Greek civilization, but was prevented by his war with the Parthians from at all improving this vilest of nations" ('The History' 5  by Cornelius Tacitus).

4) Jews control capitalism.  See Henry Ford and Nesta Webster, as examples, and countless others.

"When we sink, we become a revolutionary proletariat, the subordinate officers of all revolutionary parties; and at the same time, when we rise, there rises also our terrible power of the purse" ('The Jewish State' by Theodor Herzl).

5) Jews control communism.  See, e.g., ""The Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish planning and Jewish dissatisfaction. Our plan is to have a New World Order. What worked so wonderfully in Russia, is going to become reality for the whole world" (The American Hebrew Magazine September 10,1920).

"By means of terror and bloodbaths, we shall reduce the Russian intelligentsia to a state of complete stupefaction and idiocy and to an animal existence [...] At the moment, our young men in their leather jackets, who are the sons of watchmakers from Odessa, Orsha, Gomel and Vinnitsa, know how to hate everything Russian!  What pleasure they take in physically destroying the Russian intelligentsia - officers, academics and writers!” - Leon Trotsky

6) Jews own the banks and news media.  See, e.g., Ezra Pound, Eustace Mullins, Julius Evola, Adolf Hitler, Henry Ford and countless others.  Here is an old example: "At the end of _every_ seven years thou shalt make a release. And this _is_ the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth _ought_ unto his neighbour shall release _it_; he shall not exact _it_ of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD'S release. Of a foreigner thou mayest exact _it again_: but _that_ which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release; Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee _for_ an inheritance to possess it: Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day. For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over you" (Deuteronomy 15.1-6).

7) Jews seek world domination waiting for the messiah to rule the earth, see e.g., "Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judæa, were to acquire universal empire" ('The History' by Cornelius Tacitus).  "The Jewish people as a whole will be its own Messiah. It will attain world domination by the dissolution of other races...and by the establishment of a world republic in which everywhere the Jews will exercise the privilege of citizenship. In this New World Order the Children of Israel...will furnish all the leaders without encountering opposition..." -Karl Marx in a letter to Baruch Levy, quoted in Review de Paris, June 1, 1928, p. 574'

8) Jews seek to destroy the people whose nations they inhabit, see e.g., "The white women must cohabit with members of the dark races, white men with black women. Thus the white race will disappear, for mixing the dark with the white means the end of the white man, our most dangerous enemy will become a memory. We shall embark upon an era of 10,000 years of peace and plenty, Pax Judaica, and our race will rule undisputed over the world. Our superior intelligence will easily enable us to retain mastery over a world of dark peoples." -Rabbi Rabinovich, 1958
“…The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists…
…Keep bashing the dead white males, and the live ones, and the females, too, until the social construct known as the white race is destroyed. Not deconstructed, but destroyed.” - Noel Ignatiev, Jew Harvard professor and founder of Race Traitor.
“We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity, and look forward, not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them.” - Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford University, October, 1981
“We Jews have spoiled the blood of all the races of Europe. Taken as a whole, everything is Jewdified. Our ideas animate everything. Our spirit reigns over the world. We are the Lords.” - Dr. Kurt Munzer, “The Way to Zion.”

9) Jews do not hold any allegiances to the people they are among except their own tribe, is another accusation; that they are International, see e.g., Henry Ford and Adolf Hitler and Bobby Fisher and numerous others.

"I believe national pride is a lot of nonsense" (Chicago Tribune, September 25, 1935 - Bernard Baruch).

" A childish weakness of grand style is the name I would give to the love of one's country" ('Talmudic Chrestomatia' by Rabbi Bernard Fiscer).

10) Jews are responsible for the wars is another claim.  For example, see the Oded Yinon Plan and the Rothschild literature, 'The Greatest Story Never Told', and other texts, or:

"Hitler will have no war, but he will be forced into it, not this year but later" ('Les Annales', June 1934 by Emil Ludwig.

"Whenever an American or a Filipino fell at Bataan or Corregidor or at any other of the now historic spots where MacArthur's men put up their remarkable fight, their survivors could have said with truth: 'The real reason that boy went to his death, was because Hitler's anti-Semitic movement succeeded in Germany'" (The American Hebrew, July 24, 1942).

"The millions of Jews who live in America, England and France, North and South Africa, and, not to forget those in Palestine, are determined to bring the war of annihilation against Germany to its final end." (Central Blad Voor Israeliten in Nederland, September 13, 1939)

"Our fight against Germany must be carried to the limit of what is possible. Israel has been attacked. Let us, therefore, defend Israel! Against the awakened Germany, we put an awakened Israel. And the world will defend us" ('Epitres aux Juifs by Pierre Creange 1938).

"Judea declares War on Germany" (Daily Express, March 24, 1934).

"The fight against Germany has now been waged for months by every Jewish community, on every conference, in all labor unions and by every single Jew in the world. There are reasons for the assumption that our share in this fight is of general importance. We shall start a spiritual and material war of the whole world against Germany. Germany is striving to become once again a great nation, and to recover her lost territories as well as her colonies. But our Jewish interests call for the complete destruction of Germany" (Mascha Rjetsch by Valadimir Jabotinsky, January 1934).


200 million people were murdered in the 20th century by governments.  It does not seem human nature changes and so it can only get worse, especially when the natural resources start dwindling down.  There have already been many mass murders in the 21st century in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, and other places.  Not including the violence by individuals.

So, as you can see, there were a number of reasons or complaints given, by people when they targeted Jews or discussed the Jewish question.

Hope this helps.


----------



## 320 Years of History

Indofred said:


> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> 
> This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
> It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
> I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.
> 
> I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.
> 
> Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism
> 
> This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
> They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.
> 
> All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
> So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
> Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*-



I'm not sure where to begin and I haven't nearly enough time to address all the different events in the timeline you referenced.  I'm also curious why you chose a timeline that began in the 2nd century A.D?  The persecution/disdain for Jews dates at least to period of the Exodus.  Were you largely focused on expulsions?  I have to ask in order to get some clarity seeing as you point us to a litany of expulsions, yet the thing you ask about is hate.  The two do not have to go together.  For example, one can be sure that the Canaanites hated the Jews plenty when they arrived from Egypt and decided to go to war over the Land of Canaan -- land that the Canaanites were quite content having to themselves -- because that was supposedly the land God had declared to be theirs, their "land of milk and honey."  More likely is that Moses and the other Jewish generals realized they could defeat the Canaanites in battle, and that is what made it be the place God had made for the Jews who'd traipsed all the way from Egypt.  Whatever the case, it wasn't the Jews who were expelled, but they were surely hated right then and there.

I'm also not sure how detailed an answer you want.  Are you asking for something more precise than the same things that make for hatred between other identity groups?  Are you desirous of historical accounts for each of the events in the timeline and specific reasons for each of those major displays of disdain for Jews?  Something other than those things?

I can tell you that the Jews are easily and readily identifiable as an identity group that has suffered a lot of persecution over the millennia in large measure not only for the age old basics like greed and envy, but also for one big reason for much of Western history: Jews were Jewish and the folks in power were not.

Jews have been around for a very, very long time.  In Western culture, I don't know of any other globally dispersed and more or less unified identity group that was around in the time of the Pharaohs, and that is still around today.  For the overwhelming majority of recorded history, religion and religious belief formed the basis for establishing and maintaining political and civil control as well as social cohesiveness.  And for as long as there have been Jews, the Jews have not been the most powerful power in the known world, and never have they been willingly and religiously syncretistic to any extent considered acceptable by the power elite at the time.  

Quite simply when one is Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever and the "powers that be" are not, one is feared, seen as a threat to the status quo, hated, and persecuted, mainly because one's differing faith-based belief system poses a threat to the folks holding sway under whatever is their belief system.  That Judaism provides not only provides guidelines and requirements for how one interacts with God, but also has them for how one goes about one's daily existence, and has laws, some of which may conflict with the laws the folks in power wanted to impose/enforce, it's not surprising that Jews got the short end of the stick.  

Over the years Jews have been kicked out of one place and _en masse_ arrived in another place.  In neither place were the powers that be Jewish, so in neither place did Jews really "fit in."  And make no mistake, the idea of "fitting in just enough" but by and large retaining one's own core identity and mores is mostly a 20th century one, and even there, we're not particularly good at adhering to the principles of it.  Looking at the 2nd century expulsion of Jews from Carthage, one need only ask where did those Jews come from that they were in Carthage to be expelled.  Basically, about 30K of them arrived in Carthage and the surrounding area in 70 A.D. when Titus expelled them from Judea in the First Roman-Jewish war.


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