# Why are so many afraid of guns?



## Mini 14

FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.

Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!


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## Sarah G

Mini 14 said:


> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!



I'm more afraid of the pinheads that are allowed to purchase them at will.


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## strollingbones

what state do you live in that allows anyone to purchase at will....

i have ever right to protect myself....i am a liberal with guns


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## Intense

Mini 14 said:


> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!



Conditioning.


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## Mini 14

Sarah G said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more afraid of the pinheads that are allowed to purchase them at will.
Click to expand...


"at will" doesn't mean we don't pay attention. If you buy too many handguns in too few days, we report it automatically to the ATF, as we are required to. And the purchaser never knows about it


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## Sarah G

strollingbones said:


> what state do you live in that allows anyone to purchase at will....
> 
> i have ever right to protect myself....i am a liberal with guns



Anyone can buy them at gun shows.  Anyone can buy them and give them as gifts without a background check.


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## uscitizen

Sarah G said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more afraid of the pinheads that are allowed to purchase them at will.
Click to expand...


One problem is that whn you combine Jack Daniels with a gun......


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## Sallow

Mini 14 said:


> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!



Well 40K Dead Americans each year has it's charms.

That and any moron could pick up a gun and suddenly become the toughest man in the room.


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## Phoenix

Mini 14 said:


> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!



Ignorance?

Brainwashing?


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## Truthmatters

anyone who doesnt fear a gun is an idiot.

Guns can kill in a split second.


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## Sarah G

uscitizen said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more afraid of the pinheads that are allowed to purchase them at will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One problem is that whn you combine Jack Daniels with a gun......
Click to expand...


That too but some people, even sober, have no business owning a gun.


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## Mini 14

Sarah G said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> what state do you live in that allows anyone to purchase at will....
> 
> i have ever right to protect myself....i am a liberal with guns
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can buy them at gun shows.  Anyone can buy them and give them as gifts without a background check.
Click to expand...


Not legally.

Anyone who buys a gun knowing they are going to give it as a gift has committed a felony (Look at question #11a on the 4473). This comes up all the time in our shops, and we deal with it in various ways.

It is a technicality, but if the ATF wants you or the dealer, the law is there for them to enforce.

And if you knowingly put a firearm in the hands of a felon, you're now a felon yourself  

As for gun shows, it is corrupt dealers that are the problem there. I advocate that all sales at shows must be 4473'd. I think we'll get there in the next couple of years, and there is no real argument against it, except from those who want a convenient way to bypass the law.

Private transactions should be just that. There should be no such thing as a "private transaction" at a show, unless it is between dealers and the proper transfers take place.


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## jillian

I'm just wondering why certain people seem to use their guns to make up for certain personal... er... deficits.

ah well.. i guess others use certain cars for the same reason.

*shrug*


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## rikules

Mini 14 said:


> FAR more people die every year from the stuff in your liquor cabinets than guns.
> 
> Guns are beautiful, and have done far less damage than Jack Daniels!



guns don't scare me....

bullets, on the other hand, do scare me


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## Mini 14

Truthmatters said:


> anyone who doesnt fear a gun is an idiot.
> 
> Guns can kill in a split second.



Do you fear this?





because there is a much greater chance that it will kill you than there is any gun.


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## uscitizen

I just dropped membership in a hunting/shooting club this past year.
It got overrun with  the they're going to take our guns away right wingers.  They tried to make NRA membership a condition of membership in the club and started saying the pledge and a prayer before meetings and quoting Beck and running down Obama.

It was a nice place before politics moved in.

Ohh well what should one expect from a club that still will not allow women members.

btw I have many guns, lots of ammo and have a Remington Rand Model 1911 at hand right now.


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## jillian

rikules said:


> guns don't scare me....
> 
> bullets, on the other hand, do scare me



i'm not afraid of guns or bullets,,,, i'm afraid of people who think guns = manhood


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## Sarah G

Mini 14 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> what state do you live in that allows anyone to purchase at will....
> 
> i have ever right to protect myself....i am a liberal with guns
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can buy them at gun shows.  Anyone can buy them and give them as gifts without a background check.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not legally.
> 
> Anyone who buys a gun knowing they are going to give it as a gift has committed a felony (Look at question #11a on the 4473). This comes up all the time in our shops, and we deal with it in various ways.
> 
> It is a technicality, but if the ATF wants you or the dealer, the law is there for them to enforce.
> 
> And if you knowingly put a firearm in the hands of a felon, you're now a felon yourself
> 
> As for gun shows, it is corrupt dealers that are the problem there. I advocate that all sales at shows must be 4473'd. I think we'll get there in the next couple of years, and there is no real argument against it, except from those who want a convenient way to bypass the law.
> 
> Private transactions should be just that. There should be no such thing as a "private transaction" at a show, unless it is between dealers and the proper transfers take place.
Click to expand...


Not according to what I just read.  You are not required to do a background check unless you are licensed.



> The second loophole exist at gun shows and other private transactions. Background check laws do not extend to private sales, so sellers not licensed by the federal government are not required to make such checks
> 
> Read more: About Buying a Gun & Background Searches | eHow.com About Buying a Gun & Background Searches | eHow.com



It seems pretty easy to get one even if you're a nutbar.


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## Mini 14

uscitizen said:


> I just dropped membership in a hunting/shooting club this past year.
> It got overrun with  the they're going to take our guns away right wingers.  They tried to make NRA membership a condition of membership in the club and started saying the pledge and a prayer before meetings and quoting Beck and running down Obama.
> 
> It was a nice place before politics moved in.
> 
> Ohh well what should one expect from a club that still will not allow women members.



I'm done with the NRA. They absolutely suck now. All politics and lies, just to line their own pockets.

Check out Gun Owners of America. They have it right, and are what the NRA used to be.


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## jillian

uscitizen said:


> I just dropped membership in a hunting/shooting club this past year.
> It got overrun with  the they're going to take our guns away right wingers.  They tried to make NRA membership a condition of membership in the club and started saying the pledge and a prayer before meetings and quoting Beck and running down Obama.
> 
> It was a nice place before politics moved in.
> 
> Ohh well what should one expect from a club that still will not allow women members.



my husband's shooting club has NRA membership as a condition of joining. ticked both of us off. he dropped his membership years ago when they started backing militia loons.


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## Truthmatters

Mini 14 said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyone who doesnt fear a gun is an idiot.
> 
> Guns can kill in a split second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you fear this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because there is a much greater chance that it will kill you than there is any gun.
Click to expand...


I fear its effects just like I fear teh effects of a gun.

Fear is a great motivator and unlike some idiots think it is not equal with being paralyzed to action.


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## uscitizen

Mini 14 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just dropped membership in a hunting/shooting club this past year.
> It got overrun with  the they're going to take our guns away right wingers.  They tried to make NRA membership a condition of membership in the club and started saying the pledge and a prayer before meetings and quoting Beck and running down Obama.
> 
> It was a nice place before politics moved in.
> 
> Ohh well what should one expect from a club that still will not allow women members.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm done with the NRA. They absolutely suck now. All politics and lies, just to line their own pockets.
> 
> Check out Gun Owners of America. They have it right, and are what the NRA used to be.
Click to expand...


I think that is the bunch that sent me lots of envelopes maked survey and inside was GOA membership papers and vote for Rand Paul stuff.

I belonged to the NRA when I was a teen, it was a different organization back then.


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## Phoenix

Truthmatters said:


> anyone who doesnt fear a gun is an idiot.
> 
> Guns can kill in a split second.



Guns don't kill on their own. 

Blaming guns for shooting people is like blaming spoons (or McDonald's) for being fat.


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## Mini 14

Sarah G said:


> Not according to what I just read.  You are not required to do a background check unless you are licensed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second loophole exist at gun shows and other private transactions. Background check laws do not extend to private sales, so sellers not licensed by the federal government are not required to make such checks
> 
> Read more: About Buying a Gun & Background Searches | eHow.com About Buying a Gun & Background Searches | eHow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems pretty easy to get one even if you're a nutbar.
Click to expand...


Requiring all shows to be 4473'd would solve the show problem.

There is no way around true private transactions, unless you want to take away citizen's rights to ownership. And even in a private transaction, if you place a gun in the hand of a restricted person, you have committed a felony. (The private seller is as responsible as a dealer for keeping guns out of the hands of restricted people).


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## Sarah G

Mini 14 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to what I just read.  You are not required to do a background check unless you are licensed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second loophole exist at gun shows and other private transactions. Background check laws do not extend to private sales, so sellers not licensed by the federal government are not required to make such checks
> 
> Read more: About Buying a Gun & Background Searches | eHow.com About Buying a Gun & Background Searches | eHow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems pretty easy to get one even if you're a nutbar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Requiring all shows to be 4473'd would solve the show problem.
> 
> There is no way around true private transactions, unless you want to take away citizen's rights to ownership. And even in a private transaction, if you place a gun in the hand of a restricted person, you have committed a felony. (The private seller is as responsible as a dealer for keeping guns out of the hands of restricted people).
Click to expand...


This has been a problem for years, wonder why they just don't do that.  It wouldn't solve everything but it would help some.


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## Mini 14

uscitizen said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just dropped membership in a hunting/shooting club this past year.
> It got overrun with  the they're going to take our guns away right wingers.  They tried to make NRA membership a condition of membership in the club and started saying the pledge and a prayer before meetings and quoting Beck and running down Obama.
> 
> It was a nice place before politics moved in.
> 
> Ohh well what should one expect from a club that still will not allow women members.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm done with the NRA. They absolutely suck now. All politics and lies, just to line their own pockets.
> 
> Check out Gun Owners of America. They have it right, and are what the NRA used to be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is the bunch that sent me lots of envelopes maked survey and inside was GOA membership papers and vote for Rand Paul stuff.
> 
> I belonged to the NRA when I was a teen, it was a different organization back then.
Click to expand...


Yes it was. To me, the GoA is now what the NRA used to be. They are a grassroots organization, and they do not solicit 24/7, spending 90% of what they raise on the effort to raise it, as the NRA does.

The NRA is dead to me. There is absolutely no benefit to membership that I can find anymore. They have really gone down the tubes the past few years.


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## Sallow

Mini 14 said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyone who doesnt fear a gun is an idiot.
> 
> Guns can kill in a split second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you fear this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because there is a much greater chance that it will kill you than there is any gun.
Click to expand...


Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.

None of the guys were holding drinks.


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## Mini 14

Sarah G said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to what I just read.  You are not required to do a background check unless you are licensed.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems pretty easy to get one even if you're a nutbar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Requiring all shows to be 4473'd would solve the show problem.
> 
> There is no way around true private transactions, unless you want to take away citizen's rights to ownership. And even in a private transaction, if you place a gun in the hand of a restricted person, you have committed a felony. (The private seller is as responsible as a dealer for keeping guns out of the hands of restricted people).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This has been a problem for years, wonder why they just don't do that.  It wouldn't solve everything but it would help some.
Click to expand...


Dealers are starting to get behind this, so I suspect it will happen in the next 2-5 years. "Good" dealers have taken a beating at the hands of the "shady" dealers, so we are starting to police ourselves (in cooperation with the ATF).

2 local dealers lost their licenses here last year, and it was directly due to other dealers turning them over to ATF for illegal sales. Sounds cutthroat, but it isn't. One bad dealer gives ALL of us a bad name.


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## Mini 14

Sallow said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyone who doesnt fear a gun is an idiot.
> 
> Guns can kill in a split second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you fear this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because there is a much greater chance that it will kill you than there is any gun.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
Click to expand...


Your personal experience doesn't change the reality that you are 4 times more likely to be killed by alcohol than by a firearm. 

Sounds to me like you REALLY need to move to a better neighborhood?


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## Sallow

Mini 14 said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you fear this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because there is a much greater chance that it will kill you than there is any gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your personal experience doesn't change the reality that you are 4 times more likely to be killed by alcohol than by a firearm.
> 
> Sounds to me like you REALLY need to move to a better neighborhood?
Click to expand...


Things got much better since the tough guns laws.


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## Sarah G

Mini 14 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Requiring all shows to be 4473'd would solve the show problem.
> 
> There is no way around true private transactions, unless you want to take away citizen's rights to ownership. And even in a private transaction, if you place a gun in the hand of a restricted person, you have committed a felony. (The private seller is as responsible as a dealer for keeping guns out of the hands of restricted people).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has been a problem for years, wonder why they just don't do that.  It wouldn't solve everything but it would help some.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dealers are starting to get behind this, so I suspect it will happen in the next 2-5 years. "Good" dealers have taken a beating at the hands of the "shady" dealers, so we are starting to police ourselves (in cooperation with the ATF).
> 
> 2 local dealers lost their licenses here last year, and it was directly due to other dealers turning them over to ATF for illegal sales. Sounds cutthroat, but it isn't. One bad dealer gives ALL of us a bad name.
Click to expand...


That's hopeful.  I learned how to shoot years ago when there was some gun violence against a family member.  She is ok but it really makes you think and take action.  

There are those who really aren't ok owning a gun.


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## PixieStix

Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated. 

It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.

"From our cold dead hands"


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## Mini 14

I agree completely that there are those who should not be allowed to own guns, but who still legally are. As a licensee, it is completely at my discretion as to whether or not I sell you a gun. We average probably 2 refusals each week where we aren't comfortable with the person, and we therefore refuse to sell them a gun or even perform a background check. The background check wouldn't matter. If I don't want you to have a gun, for whatever reason, I'm not going to sell you one. Those folks are perfectly free to go elsewhere and find someone who will sell to them.

The problem is that they usually do


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## Mini 14

Sallow said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your personal experience doesn't change the reality that you are 4 times more likely to be killed by alcohol than by a firearm.
> 
> Sounds to me like you REALLY need to move to a better neighborhood?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Things got much better since the tough guns laws.
Click to expand...


LOL. Sure they have.

For the criminals, at least.


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## Sarah G

PixieStix said:


> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"



Ok, Boehner..


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## jillian

PixieStix said:


> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"



 love that tough talk.

guns are what they are. but i sure as heck want to know who's owning them and that criminals and crazy people aren't allowed to get them.


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## Sallow

PixieStix said:


> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"



It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.


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## Mini 14

Sallow said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
Click to expand...


According to you.


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## Missourian

I was very upset with the NRA for withholding an endorsement for Harry Reid.

I opposed Reid's re-election,  but he has always been a friend to gun owners.

That said,  I renewed by membership for 3 more years...because they get the job done.

The Heller decision establishing the 2nd Amendment as an individual right in 2008 was a huge win for gun owners...and that wouldn't have happened without the NRA.


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## PixieStix

jillian said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> love that tough talk.
> 
> guns are what they are. but i sure as heck want to know who's owning them and that criminals and crazy people aren't allowed to get them.
Click to expand...


It is actually that simple, no need to complicate the issue, there are laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of the crazies. That is important, and I am glad they are in place.

 But I will also say that many people do not want the government to even know that they own a gun, is that a violation of privacy, to Americans that want to protect themselves? 

The police is not actually there to protect,per se they are basically there to solve any crime that has been already been perpetrated against you.

I see gun ownership as a right for me to protect myself and my family.


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## jillian

Mini 14 said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> According to you.
Click to expand...


yes, the heller decision was a huge screw you. but the dissent is actually much more well-reasoned than the decision. 

is what it is though.


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## jillian

PixieStix said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> love that tough talk.
> 
> guns are what they are. but i sure as heck want to know who's owning them and that criminals and crazy people aren't allowed to get them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is actually that simple, no need to complicate the issue, there are laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of the crazies. That is important, and I am glad they are in place.
> 
> But I will also say that many people do not want the government to even know that they own a gun, is that a violation of privacy, to Americans that want to protect themselves?
> 
> The police is not actually there to protect,per se they are basically there to solve any crime that has been already been perpetrated against you.
> 
> I see gun ownership as a right for me to protect myself and my family.
Click to expand...


the position of the NRA is that there should be no controls. and i don't have a particular issue with lawful gun ownership. i do have a problem with yahoos who define themselves by their guns and make it a focal point of their self-identification.

registering ones guns is not a violation of the right to privacy. it's not even a 4th amendment issue. nor have i ever seen it asserted as one. the loons try to rely on the 2nd amendment for that proposition best as i can tell. 

as for what the police are and aren't there for, it's a mixed bag. their presence certainly acts as a deterrant.


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## Intense

Sallow said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
Click to expand...


Again your Indoctrination is evident. You could not be wrong in error. You still are far from purchasing enough Judges to pervert further your misrepresentation of the Second Amendment.






*Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.* Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear,the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. *Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it. *

The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not. On the first supposition, it will be restrained by that dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents. On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated by the State governments, who will be supported by the people. -James Madison

Federalist Papers: FEDERALIST No. 46


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## Intense

jillian said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> love that tough talk.
> 
> guns are what they are. but i sure as heck want to know who's owning them and that criminals and crazy people aren't allowed to get them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually that simple, no need to complicate the issue, there are laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of the crazies. That is important, and I am glad they are in place.
> 
> But I will also say that many people do not want the government to even know that they own a gun, is that a violation of privacy, to Americans that want to protect themselves?
> 
> The police is not actually there to protect,per se they are basically there to solve any crime that has been already been perpetrated against you.
> 
> I see gun ownership as a right for me to protect myself and my family.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the position of the NRA is that there should be no controls. and i don't have a particular issue with lawful gun ownership. i do have a problem with yahoos who define themselves by their guns and make it a focal point of their self-identification.
> 
> registering ones guns is not a violation of the right to privacy. it's not even a 4th amendment issue. nor have i ever seen it asserted as one. the loons try to rely on the 2nd amendment for that proposition best as i can tell.
> 
> as for what the police are and aren't there for, it's a mixed bag. their presence certainly acts as a deterrant.
Click to expand...


The NRA does Support Reasonable Legislation.


----------



## Missourian

Sallow said:


> Things got much better since the tough guns laws.




Debated this last year.

I've never compared accidents,  but I did compare homicides by state.

[FONT=arial,arial]These are the 13 states with  the most pro-Second Amendment laws according to the Brady Center  (Oklahoma being the most pro-Second Amendment in the nation) with total  firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the  Census Bureau:[/FONT]​ 


----------State-----------------------------# of Firearm Homicides-----------Population​ 




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Arkansas ----------------------130 ------------2,810,872
[FONT=arial,arial]Idaho -------------------------------------------------25 ---------------------1,466,465[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]New Mexico ---------------------------------------81 ---------------------1,954,599[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]South Dakota ---------------------------------------4 -----------------------781,919[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]West Virginia --------------------------------------37 --------------------1,818,470[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]Mississippi ---------------------------------------119 ---------------------2,910,540[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]Alaska -----------------------------------------------21 --------------------- 670,053[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]Louisiana ------------------------------------------455----------------------4,287,768[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]Missouri -------------------------------------------247 ---------------------5,842,713[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]North Dakota ----------------------------------------3 -----------------------635,867[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]Utah ---------------------------------------------------38 --------------------2,550,063[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]Kentucky ------------------------------------------131 --------------------4,206,074[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,arial]Oklahoma -------------------------------- --------132 --------------------3,579,212[/FONT]
And the 13 strictest gun control states according to the Brady Center (*California* being the strictest in the nation) with total firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the Census Bureau:



*California* -----------------------1,605-----36,457,549
New Jersey ----------------------260-------8,724,560
Connecticut ----------------------57 -------3,504,809
Massachusetts ------------------114 -------6,437,193
Maryland ------------------------414------- 5,615,727
New York ------------------------500 -----19,306,183
Rhode Island -------------------- --9 ------ 1,067,610
Hawaii -----------------------------3 -------1,285,498
Illinois ---------------------------343* -----12,831,970
Pennsylvania ---------------------527 ------12,440,621
Michigan -------------------------444 ------10,095,643
Delaware--------------------------22 ---------853,476
North Carolina--------------------369 --------8,856,505
* incomplete data received by the FBI


The District of Columbia is not listed on the Brady Center ranking list  but it did have the strictest gun control in the nation in 2007:


District of Columbia-----------------181--------581,530
So  here is the break down for firearm homicides per number of citizens per  state plus the District of Columbia with Washington D.C. being the most  dangerous place to live with 1 out of every 3,212 residents murdered by  firearms and Hawaii being the safest with 1 out of every 428,499  residents murdered by firearms.


The number listed is the population divided by the total firearm  homicides to render 1 homicide per (X) number of residents. (Red are  Strict Gun Control, Blue are Pro-gun)



*District of Columbia -----------1 / 3,212 *
*Louisiana ---------------------1 / 9,423 *
*Maryland ---------------------1 / 13,564 *
*Arkansas ---------------------1 / 21,622 *
*California ---------------------1 / 22,714 *
*Michigan ---------------------1 / 22,737 *
*Pennsylvania -----------------1 / 23,606 *
*Missouri ----------------------1 / 23,654 *
*North Carolina ----------------1 / 24,001 *
*New Mexico ------------------1 / 24,130 *
*Mississippi --------------------1 / 24,458 *
*Oklahoma --------------------1 / 25,115 *
*Alaska -----------------------1 / 31,907 *
*Kentucky ---------------------1 / 32,107 *
*New Jersey -------------------1 / 33,556 *
*Illinois ------------------------1 / 37,410 *
*New York ---------------------1 / 38,612*
*Delaware ---------------------1 / 38,794*
*West Virgina ------------------1 / 49,147*
*Massachusetts ----------------1 / 56,466*
*Idaho -------------------------1 / 58,658*
*Connecticut -------------------1 / 61,487*
*Utah --------------------------1 / 67,106*
*Rhode Island -------------------1 / 118,623*
*South Dakota ------------------1 / 195,479*
*North Dakota -------------------1 / 211,955*
*Hawaii -------------------------1 / 428,499*
*Bottom line, stricter firearm laws have no effect on firearm homicides.*


*That is why the Brady Center  uses violent crime or firearm deaths instead of actual firearm homicides  even though the firearm homicides are provided by the FBI online every  year.*






Link to FBI Stats Table 20 - Crime in the United States 2007

Link to Brady Center state rankings list http://www.stategunlaws.org/xshare/p...d_rankings.pdf

Population from the U.S. Census Bureau State and County QuickFacts

Wikipedia Firearm Homicides for the District of Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.



http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...s-our-2nd-amendment-right-10.html#post1794625


----------



## Paulie

All anyone needs to do is look at Switzerland for an idea of how gun rights and low crime rates correlate.


----------



## Sallow

Paulie said:


> All anyone needs to do is look at Switzerland for an idea of how gun rights and low crime rates correlate.



Mandatory Military service will do that..



> Military of Switzerland
> The Swiss Armed Forces perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. *Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are conscript citizens 18 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old*. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but is part of several peacekeeping missions around the world.
> Military of Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



This is by the way..closer to the original intent of our own Constitution..then the perversion we now live under.


----------



## Sallow

Mini 14 said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> According to you.
Click to expand...


No.

According to the United States Constitution. Arguments to the contrary generally don't hold water unless you parse the amendment, go to some of the "OpEds" in the Federalist Papers (Some which contradict each other) or just completely dismiss the actual text of the Constitution altogether. Or history for that matter.


----------



## jillian

Intense said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again your Indoctrination is evident. You could not be wrong in error. You still are far from purchasing enough Judges to pervert further your misrepresentation of the Second Amendment.
Click to expand...


it isn't "indoctrination" to agree with half the court.

it IS indoctrination to call that indoctrination.  just sayin', hon.


----------



## jillian

Sallow said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> According to the United States Constitution. Arguments to the contrary generally don't hold water unless you parse the amendment, go to some of the "OpEds" in the Federalist Papers (Some which contradict each other) or just completely dismiss the actual text of the Constitution altogether. Or history for that matter.
Click to expand...


yes, but unfortunately, scalia and his boys held differently.


----------



## xotoxi

Mini 14 said:


> *Why are so many afraid of guns?*



They are loud and scary!


----------



## westwall

Sallow said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyone who doesnt fear a gun is an idiot.
> 
> Guns can kill in a split second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you fear this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because there is a much greater chance that it will kill you than there is any gun.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
Click to expand...





What's your gangbanger name?


----------



## westwall

Sallow said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your personal experience doesn't change the reality that you are 4 times more likely to be killed by alcohol than by a firearm.
> 
> Sounds to me like you REALLY need to move to a better neighborhood?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Things got much better since the tough guns laws.
Click to expand...





Oh sure they did.  Whenever guns are outlawed the crime in teh neighborhood allways goes up.  Let's look at the anti gunners paradise Australia.  After most guns of any kind were outlawed violent crime shot up 44% and rape shot up 300%.  Sure those gun laws work.


----------



## westwall

Sallow said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
Click to expand...





Boy are you ever wrong.  Why would the State need a guarantee of it's right to have weapons?


----------



## Sallow

westwall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you fear this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because there is a much greater chance that it will kill you than there is any gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your gangbanger name?
Click to expand...


Fuck you.

Asshole.


----------



## westwall

Sallow said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your gangbanger name?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fuck you.
> 
> Asshole.
Click to expand...





F.U. Asshole is your banger name?


----------



## Douger

C'mon Mini. You refer to murkins.
They are all afraid of simple things.
A problem with a hard drive is enough to call the shrink and munch some Prozac.


----------



## Intense

Sallow said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have been mugged at gun point, had my home invaded by guys with guns, got shot at a few times, and have been to funerals of several friends I lost to gun violence.
> 
> None of the guys were holding drinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your gangbanger name?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fuck you.
> 
> Asshole.
Click to expand...


That's a funny yet appropriate name.  FUA.... FUAH? Which do you prefer?  We have got to get you out of the City. Get you into some fresh air. Get you a new outlook and new Nick Name.


----------



## Sallow

westwall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's your gangbanger name?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F.U. Asshole is your banger name?
Click to expand...


No.

It's an acknowledgement of a grave insult.

Asshole.


----------



## Sallow

westwall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many anti gun activists seem to think that gun ownership is a disease, to be eradicated.
> 
> It is a Constitutional right, and no amount of projection will eradicate that right.
> 
> "From our cold dead hands"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy are you ever wrong.  Why would the State need a guarantee of it's right to have weapons?
Click to expand...


You really want to go here?

Decentralized military.


----------



## Sallow

Intense said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's your gangbanger name?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's a funny yet appropriate name.  FUA.... FUAH? Which do you prefer?  We have got to get you out of the City. Get you into some fresh air. Get you a new outlook and new Nick Name.
Click to expand...


Sallow -><- Intense


----------



## Intense

Sallow said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a funny yet appropriate name.  FUA.... FUAH? Which do you prefer?  We have got to get you out of the City. Get you into some fresh air. Get you a new outlook and new Nick Name.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sallow -><- Intense
Click to expand...


Sallow -> <- Intense


----------



## Ernie S.

Sallow said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F.U. Asshole is your banger name?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> It's an acknowledgement of a grave insult.
> 
> Asshole.
Click to expand...


Just plain old "Asshole" then?


----------



## westwall

Sallow said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F.U. Asshole is your banger name?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> It's an acknowledgement of a grave insult.
> 
> Asshole.
Click to expand...





The insult is to our intelligence.  Could you have been mugged?  Yes.  Could you also have been the victim of a home invasion....yes but now the odds are getting a little long.  Could have been the victim of a mugging and a home invasion and have had multiple friends killed by gunfire?  Sorry Charlie the only demographic where that is possible is a gangbanger.


----------



## westwall

Sallow said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy are you ever wrong.  Why would the State need a guarantee of it's right to have weapons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really want to go here?
> 
> Decentralized military.
Click to expand...




Uhhh yeah right sure, whatever you say there pal.


----------



## LordBrownTrout

I just don't see law abiding citizens who own guns acting like nuts.  Just doesn't happen.  Look at where violence occurs....yep inner city gangs.  Why is that?  No accountability, no regard for life, and irresponsibility reigns.


----------



## strollingbones

jillian said:


> I'm just wondering why certain people seem to use their guns to make up for certain personal... er... deficits.
> 
> ah well.. i guess others use certain cars for the same reason.
> 
> *shrug*




excuse me...i dont have a dick and a gun is not a dick...i am always amazed at people with this view...i dont live in the city....it can take police 20 minutes or more to get here....i have ever right to protect myself...

perhaps you should consider why you link guns and dicks?


----------



## Missourian

LordBrownTrout said:


> I just don't see law abiding citizens who own guns acting like nuts.  Just doesn't happen.  Look at where violence occurs....yep inner city gangs.  Why is that?  No accountability, no regard for life, and irresponsibility reigns.




Exactly!

I researched this last year,  here were the results.

The links may not work right now...they're old...but I'll fix'em.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Guns don't kill people, Cities kill people.*​ 


Why do the rural communities with *twice as many legal gun owners and four times the owned firearms* have *25 times less gun crime* than urban communities?


Look here for firearm ownership study


Of the 22 Missouri counties with populations between 25K and 50K, having a combined population of *806,764* persons, there were *163 total firearm assaults* and 2604 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind. 


MSHP stats for 22 rural Missouri counties


During the same period, in only the city of St. Louis and the city of  Kansas City contained within the state of Missouri (half is in Kansas of  course), with a combined population of *793,587* persons, there were a total of *4,143 firearm assaults* and 8986 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.



MSHP stats for St. Louis 



MSHP stats for KC, MO 





The 2006 stats on Missouri crime came from this website : Missouri State Highway Patrol Statisical Analysis Center, they are the most recent available.

The 2004 rural/urban chart came from this website : Department of Health Policy and Management, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA 2004 study.

If the links for the MSHP data are broken, you can find the information for 2006 here: MO SAC - Data and Statistics - Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Statistical Query


This blog is entirely my own work and research...reproduce it freely in support of the 2nd amendment.


----------



## Mini 14

Sallow said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a collective constitutional right..not an indivdual one. It's been perverted beyond original intent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> According to the United States Constitution. Arguments to the contrary generally don't hold water unless you parse the amendment, go to some of the "OpEds" in the Federalist Papers (Some which contradict each other) or just completely dismiss the actual text of the Constitution altogether. Or history for that matter.
Click to expand...


Forgive me, and the Supreme Court, for disagreeing with you.


----------



## Mini 14

westwall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> F.U. Asshole is your banger name?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> It's an acknowledgement of a grave insult.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The insult is to our intelligence.  Could you have been mugged?  Yes.  Could you also have been the victim of a home invasion....yes but now the odds are getting a little long.  Could have been the victim of a mugging and a home invasion and have had multiple friends killed by gunfire?  Sorry Charlie the only demographic where that is possible is a gangbanger.
Click to expand...


You didn't factor in the "I've been shot at multiple times" statement either.

I think his gang banger name is MotherfuxinLiar?


----------



## Paulie

Sallow said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> All anyone needs to do is look at Switzerland for an idea of how gun rights and low crime rates correlate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mandatory Military service will do that..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military of Switzerland
> The Swiss Armed Forces perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. *Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are conscript citizens 18 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old*. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but is part of several peacekeeping missions around the world.
> Military of Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is by the way..closer to the original intent of our own Constitution..then the perversion we now live under.
Click to expand...


Mandatory military service when your country isn't shoving its servicemen out into hostile foreign ghettos and jungles to occupy a nation and install its own version of a friendly government probably isn't all the bad of a concept.

Low crime, and no senseless war mongering.  I'll _TAKE_ it.


----------



## keee keee

what would be more dangerous would be a place where only the government had guns. kind of like Germany in the 40"s


----------



## bikercat

I believe the majority of anti gun sentiments stems from ignorance and having no experience with firearms. my wife is a perfect expample. for some reason everytime I take the firearms out to clean, she feels a little uncomfortable about it. and this includes my muzzleloader and cap and ball revolver! I've offered to take her out to the target range a few years ago, but she has yet to come along.


----------



## editec

*



Why are so many afraid of guns?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Click to expand...

 
Ah yes, that happy delusion of the gun queer crowd.

That people  fear the guns.



*


----------



## liebuster

editec said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> Why are so many afraid of guns?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah yes, that happy delusion of the gun queer crowd.
> 
> That people  fear the guns.
> 
> 
> 
> *



Then why do you want to ban them?


----------

