# Do you remember Vietnam on TV?



## Rossuk

Dear All

I am trying to find out if anyone clearly remembers the television footage from The Vietnam War as the event was unfolding? Did any TV footage stick in peoples minds or have photographs now taken over our memory of the war? 


All your comments are welcome

Thanks Ross


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## Katzndogz

I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.


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## Rossuk

Hi Katzndogz

Thanks for your response, I am studying Photojournalism in London and I am currently writing about memories of the Vietnam war. 

I was just wondering if you think Cronkite was lying at the time or only after other information came to light? What can you remember him saying or are the images of him on tv a more vivid memory?

Thanks 
Ross


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## rightwinger

Believe it or not, but VietNam was actually fought in black and white

I remember each newscast (there were only three and they lasted a half hour) would have footage. Most was guys getting off a helicopter, some patrol type stuff....not a lot of "look at the dead bodies"

A lot of the really gross stuff was in still photographs

In spite of right wing revisionist history, Cronkite was great


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## Sunni Man

I remember sitting in the living room of my parents home as a young teenager and watching the war on the evening news in black and white.

But it didn't affect me because I had a hot rod 57 Chevy and was too busy going to dances at the teen club and chasing girls.

Then one day I got a letter from the President in the mail...........


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## Truthmatters

I remember wondering if my brother would come home in a box.


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## konradv

Watching it daily for so long turned me against the war.  It's not so much what correspondents said, but the realization that I'd been watching it longer than it had taken us to win WW II with no end in sight.  I got the feeling that there was something terribly wrong going on and we needed to get out.  Then I went to college and that took away any remaining support I had.


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## Warrior102

Katzndogz said:


> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.



Ditto


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## Truthmatters

My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.

I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.


He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.


He refused to hold a gun.


He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.


He refused.


the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.


He refused to hold a gun.



Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.


That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.


My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.


Thankfully I only spent a few months wondering if my brother would end up coming home in a box.


Many little sisters fears were realised in that horrible fucking mess that was the Veitnam war.


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## rightwinger

konradv said:


> Watching it daily for so long turned me against the war.  It's not so much what correspondents said, but the realization that I'd been watching it longer than it had taken us to win WW II with no end in sight.  I got the feeling that there was something terribly wrong going on and we needed to get out.  Then I went to college and that took away any remaining support I had.



I agree

It was the talking heads with stars on their shoulders that turned the tide. 
1965  "We need a few more troops"
1966  "We just need a few more troops and this will be wrapped up"
1967  "One last surge and this war will be over"
1968  " Give us 100,000 more troops and we can win this thing"

America just grew tired. It became obvious that there was no master plan, no exit stragedy, no path to victory

Johnson and the Generals just refused to admit it


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## Sallow

Katzndogz said:


> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.



Well..

Be clear.

When did Cronkite lie?


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## Warrior102

Truthmatters said:


> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> 
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> 
> 
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> 
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> 
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> 
> 
> He refused.
> 
> 
> *the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> *
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> 
> 
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> 
> 
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> 
> Thankfully I only spent a few months wondering if my brother would end up coming home in a box.
> 
> 
> Many little sisters fears were realised in that horrible fucking mess that was the Veitnam war.



Yeah sure....


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## Truthmatters

I dont care what you believe or not.

truth doesnt seem to like being in your brain


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## Warrior102

Sunni Man said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> He refused.
> the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> 
> 
> STFU you lying vodka soaked ****........
> 
> *In those days if you threw your weapon at a D.I.
> 
> 3 OR 4 of them would have beat the crap out of you and said you slipped in the shower.*
> 
> And Dishonorable discharges are not automatically changed to Honorable you freakin nitwit.
> 
> 
> We had a couple of drafted guys in our unit during basic training who didn't want hold a weapon in combat. (thinking this would exempt them from going to Vietnam)
> 
> They still had to complete the weapons portion of basic training. Then were given "Conscientious Objector" status and sent to Ft. Sam Houston for training to be Medics. (medics do not carry weapons)
> 
> But the joke was on the them. Because immediately after graduration from Medics school they were sent straight to Vietnam.
Click to expand...


True. Today's Boot Camp the recruit holds up a "red card" when he/she is getting stressed out. Back in the  good old days, the DI's did indeed take care of business - usually physically. Some of that was still going on when I joined in the mid 70s.


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## Truthmatters

Sunni Man said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> He refused.
> the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> 
> 
> STFU you lying vodka soaked ****........
> 
> In those days if you threw your weapon at a D.I.
> 
> 3 OR 4 of them would have beat the crap out of you and said you slipped in the shower.
> 
> And Dishonorable discharges are not automatically changed to Honorable you freakin nitwit.
> 
> 
> We had a couple of drafted guys in our unit during basic training who didn't want hold a weapon in combat. (thinking this would exempt them from going to Vietnam)
> 
> They still had to complete the weapons portion of basic training. Then were given "Conscientious Objector" status and sent to Ft. Sam Houston for training to be Medics. (medics do not carry weapons)
> 
> But the joke was on the them. Because immediately after graduation from Medics school they were sent straight to Vietnam.
Click to expand...


he didnt refuse to hold it in combat.

He refused to hold it at all.


He would throw it to the  gound or back at the drill sargent.

He was too tuff for them to break at 18 fucking years old.

They could not break him.

He said he could tell the Drilly was awed by him in the end.


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## Sunni Man

Truthmatters said:


> He said he could tell the Drilly was awed by him in the end.


The "drilly" (what ever the hell that means)     

He wasn't awed; more like astounded, that they were allowing certified retards into the military.


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## Oldguy

I remember the TV coverage quite well, especially something entitled "The Anderson Platoon," where a French camera crew was embedded with an American rifle platoon for several weeks.  It was stunning journalism.

Then....I finally got to Vietnam and found how the coverage didn't reflect the reality I found there on the ground.


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## Warrior102

Truthmatters said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> He refused.
> the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> 
> 
> STFU you lying vodka soaked ****........
> 
> In those days if you threw your weapon at a D.I.
> 
> 3 OR 4 of them would have beat the crap out of you and said you slipped in the shower.
> 
> And Dishonorable discharges are not automatically changed to Honorable you freakin nitwit.
> 
> 
> We had a couple of drafted guys in our unit during basic training who didn't want hold a weapon in combat. (thinking this would exempt them from going to Vietnam)
> 
> They still had to complete the weapons portion of basic training. Then were given "Conscientious Objector" status and sent to Ft. Sam Houston for training to be Medics. (medics do not carry weapons)
> 
> But the joke was on the them. Because immediately after graduation from Medics school they were sent straight to Vietnam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he didnt refuse to hold it in combat.
> 
> He refused to hold it at all.
> 
> *
> He would throw it to the  gound or back at the drill sargent.*
> 
> He was too tuff for them to break at 18 fucking years old.
> 
> They could not break him.
> 
> He said he could tell the Drilly was awed by him in the end.
Click to expand...


You've been watching too many episodes of Gomer Pyle, meathead.


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## Katzndogz

Sallow said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well..
> 
> Be clear.
> 
> When did Cronkite lie?
Click to expand...


His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive.   We won, decisively.   That was the lie that turned the war.   General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself.  All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory.  That's exactly what happened.


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## rightwinger

Katzndogz said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well..
> 
> Be clear.
> 
> When did Cronkite lie?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive.   We won, decisively.   That was the lie that turned the war.   General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself.  All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory.  That's exactly what happened.
Click to expand...


snopes.com: General Vo Nguyen Giap on Vietnam


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## Spoonman

Rossuk said:


> Dear All
> 
> I am trying to find out if anyone clearly remembers the television footage from The Vietnam War as the event was unfolding? Did any TV footage stick in peoples minds or have photographs now taken over our memory of the war?
> 
> 
> All your comments are welcome
> 
> Thanks Ross



Not really. They didn't have any TV's in the jungles of vietnam


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## Sunni Man

Spoonman said:


> Not really. They didn't have any TV's in the jungles of vietnam


How would you know nitwit.......


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## Spoonman

Sunni Man said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. They didn't have any TV's in the jungles of vietnam
> 
> 
> 
> How would you know nitwit.......
Click to expand...


I was up to my knees in rice paddies, with guns that didn't work! Going in there, looking for Charlie, slugging it out with him; While pussies like you were back here partying, putting headbands on, doing drugs, and  listening to the goddamn Beatle albums! Oh! Oh! Oh!


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## Mad Scientist

Truthmatters said:


> I remember wondering if my brother would come home in a box.


Gimme an "F"! Gimme a "U"... 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W7-ngmO_p8"]Country Joe McDonald - I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag - YouTube[/ame]

I remember watching Saturday morning cartoons and there was this guy on CBS who did News Reports in between the cartoon shows called "In The News". Chris "Something" I can't remember. He would describe the Vietnam battles and such but all I cared about (I was 7-8 years old) was the Military planes they happened to show.

"Oh cool, it's an F-4 shootin' rockets!"


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## Warrior102

Mad Scientist said:


> "Oh cool, it's an F-4 shootin' rockets!"



The F-4 is probably my all time favorite airplane. 
Louder than hell......  [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmXvQqEcJZ8]RF4 RightNow NOISE! RF-4 F4 Phantom F-4 - YouTube[/ame]


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## Billo_Really

Rossuk said:


> Dear All
> 
> I am trying to find out if anyone clearly remembers the television footage from The Vietnam War as the event was unfolding? Did any TV footage stick in peoples minds or have photographs now taken over our memory of the war?
> 
> 
> All your comments are welcome
> 
> Thanks Ross


I remember the body counts in the upper right-hand portion of the television screen, as they were broadcasting the news.


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## Truthmatters

Spoonman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. They didn't have any TV's in the jungles of vietnam
> 
> 
> 
> How would you know nitwit.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was up to my knees in rice paddies, with guns that didn't work! Going in there, looking for Charlie, slugging it out with him; While pussies like you were back here partying, putting headbands on, doing drugs, and  listening to the goddamn Beatle albums! Oh! Oh! Oh!
Click to expand...


I loved sam kinison


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## Truthmatters

Sunni Man said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> He said he could tell the Drilly was awed by him in the end.
> 
> 
> 
> The "drilly" (what ever the hell that means)
> 
> He wasn't awed; more like astounded, that they were allowing certified retards into the military.
Click to expand...


he to this day is a better man than you will ever  know how to be


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## Billo_Really

Truthmatters said:


> I loved sam kinison


Kinnison is my hero!

I think his best bit was when he was saying his favorite President was JFK.

_*"There he was in the Oval Office, with his dick up Marilyn Monroe's ass and 
his finger on "the button", telling the Russian's to get the fuck out of Cuba,
 looking out at the Washington Monument and thinking, 'ya know, it doesn't 
get much better than this!' "​*_


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## Sunni Man

Warrior102 said:


> The F-4 is probably my all time favorite airplane.


The one thing that F-4 jockeys didn't like about the Phantom was that it always left a long black smoke trail that could be seen for miles by the enemy pilots.


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## Spoonman

Truthmatters said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> How would you know nitwit.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was up to my knees in rice paddies, with guns that didn't work! Going in there, looking for Charlie, slugging it out with him; While pussies like you were back here partying, putting headbands on, doing drugs, and  listening to the goddamn Beatle albums! Oh! Oh! Oh!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I loved sam kinison
Click to expand...


same here,  rodney dangerfield too


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## konradv

Katzndogz said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well..
> 
> Be clear.
> 
> When did Cronkite lie?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive.   We won, decisively.   That was the lie that turned the war.  * General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender *when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself.  All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory.  That's exactly what happened.
Click to expand...


He never wrote anything of the kind.  That's an internet legend that you can read about by clicking the snopes cite, previously posted.


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## Spoonman

konradv said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well..
> 
> Be clear.
> 
> When did Cronkite lie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive.   We won, decisively.   That was the lie that turned the war.  * General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender *when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself.  All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory.  That's exactly what happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He never wrote anything of the kind.  That's an internet legend that you can read about by clicking the snopes cite, previously posted.
Click to expand...


does snopes have some type of certificate that puts them above spiining the truth?


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## Sunni Man

To blame Walter Cronkite and the Peace Movement for the loss of the Vietnam War is ludicrous.


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## konradv

Spoonman said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive.   We won, decisively.   That was the lie that turned the war.  * General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender *when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself.  All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory.  That's exactly what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He never wrote anything of the kind.  That's an internet legend that you can read about by clicking the snopes cite, previously posted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> does snopes have some type of certificate that puts them above spiining the truth?
Click to expand...


They can read Giap's biography.  Have you?  There's no room for spin.  He either said it or he didn't.  I'll take their word for it, unless you can prove otherwise.  They have a reputation for tackling at all sorts of topics on an evenhanded basis.  The reports that Giap said what was mentioned above, don't come from nearly as reputable sources.  However,the only source that really counts is Giap.  Give us a page citation, if you've got it.  From my experience you're just parroting what you've heard and haven't bothered to check it out.


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## Spoonman

konradv said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> He never wrote anything of the kind.  That's an internet legend that you can read about by clicking the snopes cite, previously posted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> does snopes have some type of certificate that puts them above spiining the truth?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They can read Giap's biography.  Have you?  There's no room for spin.  He either said it or he didn't.  I'll take their word for it, unless you can prove otherwise.  They have a reputation for tackling at all sorts of topics on an evenhanded basis.  The reports that Giap said what was mentioned above, don't come from nearly as reputable sources.  However,the only source that really counts is Giap.  Give us a page citation, if you've got it.  From my experience you're just parroting what you've heard and haven't bothered to check it out.
Click to expand...


sounds to me like you lack experience


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## rightwinger

Spoonman said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive.   We won, decisively.   That was the lie that turned the war.  * General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender *when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself.  All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory.  That's exactly what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He never wrote anything of the kind.  That's an internet legend that you can read about by clicking the snopes cite, previously posted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> does snopes have some type of certificate that puts them above spiining the truth?
Click to expand...


I anxiously await you to prove snopes wrong

Post where Giap said North VietNam was ready to surrender


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## Mr Natural

Yes, I remember it well.

I also remember thinking that there is no way in hell that I'm going over there to risk my life for no good reason.


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## Ernie S.

Sunni Man said:


> I remember sitting in the living room of my parents home as a young teenager and watching the war on the evening news in black and white.
> 
> But it didn't affect me because I had a hot rod 57 Chevy and was too busy going to dances at the teen club and chasing girls.
> 
> Then one day I got a letter from the President in the mail...........



About the same here. I respected Cronkite, because you were supposed to; hell, everyone did. There _was_ no other version of the news.

I guess I wanted to hear the news the way he presented it too. After all, like most guys my age, I carried a 2"x 3" card in my wallet that said 1-A.

As was said, most of the film was helicopters and USO shows. The things that stick out were still photos.


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## JakeStarkey

Read _Matterhorn _if you weren't there to find out why you did not want to ever be there.


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## MaryL

My brother was in Vietnam. He was in the Navy, he loaded bombs on airplanes. Two of his friends that I knew, they were in the Army and they lost their lives in Vietnam.  I vaguely remember them, and their loss was one part of my memory of the war. To be honest, what I remember about media coverage during the war is blurred by time and by the plethora of images I saw after the war ended. I do remember seeing LBJ addressing congress about the war on NBC in black and white, probably about 1965 that made me feel how solemn and how much the war in indo china affected the adults around me. That feeling stuck with me.  That is the impact the media had on me.


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## usmcstinger

I was too busy fighting it in 67-68. No TV crews had the balls to cover us. We were in Northeastern I Corps, fighting a conventional war against the North Vietnamese Army. They had artillery inside the DMZ that could reach most of the area. At times USMC Photographers and writers came around. I never saw them. However, I found an Official USMC Picture of the 2nd Plt. C Co.1st Bn 4th Marines taken from behind us( It was impossible to identify any faces) during Operation Hickory II.  A minute or two after this picture was taken, the Tank behind us hit a large explosive device killing one and wounding a few members of my Platoon.
http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/P... North Vietnamese 1967  PCN 19000309000_3.pdf
page 126


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## Warrior102

Mr Clean said:


> Yes, I remember it well.
> 
> I also remember thinking that there is no way in hell that I'm going over there to risk my life for no good reason.



You didn't join until 75 assfuck - thereabouts - and you weren't you Deep Freeze/Antarctica?
That's a long way from Nam, numb nuts. 
Perhaps you and Bodey were on the same C130


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## konradv

When I think about Viet Nam these are the images that come to mind.


  

Click picture for larger version.


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## konradv

Spoonman said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> 
> does snopes have some type of certificate that puts them above spiining the truth?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can read Giap's biography.  Have you?  There's no room for spin.  He either said it or he didn't.  I'll take their word for it, unless you can prove otherwise.  They have a reputation for tackling at all sorts of topics on an evenhanded basis.  The reports that Giap said what was mentioned above, don't come from nearly as reputable sources.  However,the only source that really counts is Giap.  Give us a page citation, if you've got it.  From my experience you're just parroting what you've heard and haven't bothered to check it out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sounds to me like you lack experience
Click to expand...


Sounds to me like you don't want to face the truth.


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## chikenwing

Sure do


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## Mr Natural

Warrior102 said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I remember it well.
> 
> I also remember thinking that there is no way in hell that I'm going over there to risk my life for no good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't join until 75 assfuck - thereabouts - and you weren't you Deep Freeze/Antarctica?
> That's a long way from Nam, numb nuts.
> Perhaps you and Bodey were on the same C130
Click to expand...


Wrong again and perhaps you should go fuck yourself, asshole.


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## midcan5

I remember later on Nixon having a plan, the many protests, the Kent state shootings, and lots of mixed TV coverage. We were always winning, then losing, then winning, same BS, another time. Friends wrote and sent me Polaroids I still have of their Nam exploits, screwed up some of them, others survived well in and out of the military. I served 67 to 69 and even though I volunteered for Nam ended up in another remote but safer place. (I stupidly (?) wanted to form my own opinion) Before the service we all waited for the draft paper, teenage boys then didn't watch the news and those who tell you Cronkite lied are repeating the nonsense of revisionists ideologues, mostly chickenhawks. We called them draft dodgers, but lots were draft dodgers then. Cars and girls, ain't that what life's about for teenage boys - American Graffiti. Country Joe and the Fish was often played in our barracks but we were the lucky ones. 'Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box.' A few of my HS buddies did. Check youtube or PBS documentary below. I find it kinda funny when I read the revisionist nonsense of the right, we were young dumb and full of ... and ready to do our duty as Americans - that the place was a corrupt hell hole only some people like an Eisenhower or others who served knew. The rest live in Rambo fantasyland even today. Everyone can be brave from their couch.

American Experience | PBS | Vietnam Online

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wgUFXsxtyQ]The Hidden War In Vietnam - The Big Picture - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMLKEZhkeMI]Viet Nam Vet, SF Medal of Honor recipient on CBS Evening News with Katie Couric 25 March 2009 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x-koSIGEkQ]Battle of Long Tan ABC TV - 17 Aug 2006 - Vietnam War - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## uscitizen

usmcstinger said:


> I was too busy fighting it in 67-68. No TV crews had the balls to cover us. We were in Northeastern I Corps, fighting a conventional war against the North Vietnamese Army. They had artillery inside the DMZ that could reach most of the area. At times USMC Photographers and writers came around. I never saw them. However, I found an Official USMC Picture of the 2nd Plt. C Co.1st Bn 4th Marines taken from behind us( It was impossible to identify any faces) during Operation Hickory II.  A minute or two after this picture was taken, the Tank behind us hit a large explosive device killing one and wounding a few members of my Platoon.



yeah it sucks when a bunch of people are trying to kill ys doesn't it?

A fair bit of my time in Nam was not actually in Nam...
But we all know that did not happen


----------



## Rossuk

Hi Everyone 

Thanks for all your comments I really appreciate it! There are some really powerful comments in this forum.  Its really interesting to see that people remember the TV footage from such a long time ago.

I was wondering if anyone thinks there will be a turning point in America when Vietnam will be remembered more as a country as apposed to war? 

Given the fact that if you type the word - 'Vietnam' into YouTube the first results are war footage.


----------



## Rossuk

Hi Konradv

Do you think these images distort your memory of what happened? 

Thanks Ross


----------



## Rossuk

Hi Midcan5

Thanks for your comment and clips they are really interesting!  
Now that the Rambo movies ect have all become part of the past do you think peoples perception of the war will start to change through youtube ect? How do you think future generations in the Western world should remember Vietnam?


----------



## Moonglow

Most here in the US see Nam as a history lesson, one that is being repeated in Afghanistan.
Images affecting memory? Well of course there is some since memory fades and audio/visual recordings don't. Nam was the first war that a minority group was able to pressure politicians into a policy change of great magnitude and defeat the industrial complex and the never ending war for industry.


----------



## Sunni Man

I had received my draft notice a couple of weeks earlier, and was to be conscripted into the Army the morning of April 1, 1970 at the local induction station.

So I stayed up all night and partied with my friends.

During the party at my friends house a guy that I knew from high school showed up. I hadn't seen him for 2 or 3 years. He was older than me and had been a jock at the school. He was always clean cut with a flat top hair cut and was a star football player.

I was a long haired hippie looking guy with a tie dyed shirt. As I sat there smoking some weed he sat down beside me and said hello. I was surprised when he reached over and took the joint out of my hand and took a big hit. He told me that he had gotten out of the Army that day and had been in Vietnam. 

I told him that I was being inducted into the Army in a few hours.

He shook his head, and said that if he had to do it all over again. He would go to Canada to avoid being drafted and going to Nam.

That was the minute I started realize that my world was about to change...........


----------



## Moonglow

My Dad was drafted served his two years,1960-1962, got bored with civilian life a volunteered, he spent 7 years in Nam and loved it, he finally retired in 1986 when they forced him out.


----------



## konradv

Rossuk said:


> Hi Konradv
> 
> Do you think these images distort your memory of what happened?
> 
> Thanks Ross



Not really sure what you mean.  The first reminds me of what I wanted accomplished by my opposition to the war, getting the guys home in one piece.  The second reminds me that it was a civil war that we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.  The last reminds me that in war, it's often the innocents that suffer the most.

I can remember watching it on the news every night for years and years.  Maybe those stories have mixed in with the stills to distort my memory, but I don't think it's changed how I feel about any of it.


----------



## Ernie S.

Rossuk said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> Thanks for all your comments I really appreciate it! There are some really powerful comments in this forum.  Its really interesting to see that people remember the TV footage from such a long time ago.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone thinks there will be a turning point in America when Vietnam will be remembered more as a country as apposed to war?
> 
> Given the fact that if you type the word - 'Vietnam' into YouTube the first results are war footage.



Maybe another 20 years or so. When I was a kid, Japan and Germany were still the enemy and were inhabited by Japs and Krauts. 20 years later during Viet Nam, Koreans were still Gooks, but Japan and Germany were allies and trading partners.


----------



## konradv

Ernie S. said:


> Rossuk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Everyone
> 
> Thanks for all your comments I really appreciate it! There are some really powerful comments in this forum.  Its really interesting to see that people remember the TV footage from such a long time ago.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone thinks there will be a turning point in America when Vietnam will be remembered more as a country as apposed to war?
> 
> Given the fact that if you type the word - 'Vietnam' into YouTube the first results are war footage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe another 20 years or so. When I was a kid, Japan and Germany were still the enemy and were inhabited by Japs and Krauts. 20 years later during Viet Nam, Koreans were still Gooks, but Japan and Germany were allies and trading partners.
Click to expand...


When I was growing up "Made in Japan" meant shoddy, cheap goods.  Times change.


----------



## Spoonman

midcan5 said:


> I remember later on Nixon having a plan, the many protests, the Kent state shootings, and lots of mixed TV coverage. We were always winning, then losing, then winning, same BS, another time. Friends wrote and sent me Polaroids I still have of their Nam exploits, screwed up some of them, others survived well in and out of the military. I served 67 to 69 and even though I volunteered for Nam ended up in another remote but safer place. (I stupidly (?) wanted to form my own opinion) Before the service we all waited for the draft paper, teenage boys then didn't watch the news and those who tell you Cronkite lied are repeating the nonsense of revisionists ideologues, mostly chickenhawks. We called them draft dodgers, but lots were draft dodgers then. Cars and girls, ain't that what life's about for teenage boys - American Graffiti. Country Joe and the Fish was often played in our barracks but we were the lucky ones. 'Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box.' A few of my HS buddies did. Check youtube or PBS documentary below. I find it kinda funny when I read the revisionist nonsense of the right, we were young dumb and full of ... and ready to do our duty as Americans - that the place was a corrupt hell hole only some people like an Eisenhower or others who served knew. The rest live in Rambo fantasyland even today. Everyone can be brave from their couch.
> 
> American Experience | PBS | Vietnam Online
> 
> The Hidden War In Vietnam - The Big Picture - YouTube
> 
> Viet Nam Vet, SF Medal of Honor recipient on CBS Evening News with Katie Couric 25 March 2009 - YouTube
> 
> Battle of Long Tan ABC TV - 17 Aug 2006 - Vietnam War - YouTube



now if the liberal kennedy hadn't started the war and the liberal johnson escalated it, we wouldn't have had this mess.


----------



## JakeStarkey

In fact, after France fell at Dien Bien Phu, Eisenhower picked up the military training and supplies side of propping up a pro-West government under the Diems.  The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement.  An aside: I find that Nixon's and Obama's involvements in Vietnam and Afghanistan parallel in several ways.

Our neo-cons cannot get it into their heads that we can change another country without massive treasure and manpower involved and with the aid of significant allies.


----------



## Katzndogz

Moonglow said:


> Most here in the US see Nam as a history lesson, one that is being repeated in Afghanistan.
> Images affecting memory? Well of course there is some since memory fades and audio/visual recordings don't. Nam was the first war that a minority group was able to pressure politicians into a policy change of great magnitude and defeat the industrial complex and the never ending war for industry.



Afghanistan is nothing like Viet Nam.  There is no war against Afghanistan.  The war is against fundamentalist islam.  Afghanistan is merely a theater in that war.  As is New York or any other US city.  As is every aircraft.  If we are still comparing Afghanistan or Iraq to Viet Nam, I have to agree with Al Quaeda.  We didn't learn our lessons.  The embassy bombings didn't teach us.  Nor either the 1993 or 2001 attacks in New York.  Bombing the Cole failed to instruct.  The torture of our people in Libya didn't work.   Al Quaeda must think we are either the hardest headed people in the world or the most easily deluded.  Maybe Iran is right it would take a nuclear bomb.  That might not even work.


----------



## konradv

Spoonman said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember later on Nixon having a plan, the many protests, the Kent state shootings, and lots of mixed TV coverage. We were always winning, then losing, then winning, same BS, another time. Friends wrote and sent me Polaroids I still have of their Nam exploits, screwed up some of them, others survived well in and out of the military. I served 67 to 69 and even though I volunteered for Nam ended up in another remote but safer place. (I stupidly (?) wanted to form my own opinion) Before the service we all waited for the draft paper, teenage boys then didn't watch the news and those who tell you Cronkite lied are repeating the nonsense of revisionists ideologues, mostly chickenhawks. We called them draft dodgers, but lots were draft dodgers then. Cars and girls, ain't that what life's about for teenage boys - American Graffiti. Country Joe and the Fish was often played in our barracks but we were the lucky ones. 'Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box.' A few of my HS buddies did. Check youtube or PBS documentary below. I find it kinda funny when I read the revisionist nonsense of the right, we were young dumb and full of ... and ready to do our duty as Americans - that the place was a corrupt hell hole only some people like an Eisenhower or others who served knew. The rest live in Rambo fantasyland even today. Everyone can be brave from their couch.
> 
> American Experience | PBS | Vietnam Online
> 
> The Hidden War In Vietnam - The Big Picture - YouTube
> 
> Viet Nam Vet, SF Medal of Honor recipient on CBS Evening News with Katie Couric 25 March 2009 - YouTube
> 
> Battle of Long Tan ABC TV - 17 Aug 2006 - Vietnam War - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now if the liberal kennedy hadn't started the war and the liberal johnson escalated it, we wouldn't have had this mess.
Click to expand...


Eisenhower started the involvement.  Just sayin', let's be accurate.


----------



## konradv

Katzndogz said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most here in the US see Nam as a history lesson, one that is being repeated in Afghanistan.
> Images affecting memory? Well of course there is some since memory fades and audio/visual recordings don't. Nam was the first war that a minority group was able to pressure politicians into a policy change of great magnitude and defeat the industrial complex and the never ending war for industry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Afghanistan is nothing like Viet Nam.  There is no war against Afghanistan.  The war is against fundamentalist islam.  Afghanistan is merely a theater in that war.  As is New York or any other US city.  As is every aircraft.  If we are still comparing Afghanistan or Iraq to Viet Nam, I have to agree with Al Quaeda.  We didn't learn our lessons.  The embassy bombings didn't teach us.  Nor either the 1993 or 2001 attacks in New York.  Bombing the Cole failed to instruct.  The torture of our people in Libya didn't work.   Al Quaeda must think we are either the hardest headed people in the world or the most easily deluded.  Maybe Iran is right it would take a nuclear bomb.  That might not even work.
Click to expand...


You can say the same thing about Viet Nam.  Just substitute Communism for Islam.  There was no war against Viet Nam.  The war was against international communism.  Viet Nam was merely a theater in the war.  SEE?


----------



## usmcstinger

konradv said:


> When I think about Viet Nam these are the images that come to mind.
> 
> View attachment 23736 View attachment 23737 View attachment 23738
> 
> Click picture for larger version.


 
Do you know truth about the last 2 pictures? Read the link below.
The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
 In taking that picture," Adams later told Parade magazine, "I had destroyed [Loan's] life. For General Loan had become a man condemned both in his country and in America because he had killed an enemy in war. People do this all the time in war, but rarely is a photographer there to record the act."
Adams accepted Loan's explanation that the man he shot was a Viet Cong captain who had murdered several civilians.
Years later, when Loan, who lost a leg during the war, was running a pizza parlor in suburban Washington, D.C., Adams visited him.
"He told me, 'You were doing your job, and I was doing mine,' " Adams told Parade.
Despite efforts to deport him, Loan lived out his life in Virginia, dying of cancer in 1998. "Photographs, you know, they're half-truths," Adams said a day after Loan's death.
Often asked if he had it to do over, the photographer said: "If it happened again, I'd probably take the picture again -- it's my job."


As Nick Ut, the man who snapped this Pulitzer Prize winning photo, said: If the Communists had only stayed in North Vietnam he said,this never would have happened. But our leftwing journalists Orwellian memory effectively filtered out Uts observation, leaving the picture to speak not for the victims of communism but for the left.
Despite the photos insinuations and claims by the left, these children were not victims of an American napalm attack. North Vietnamese troops and some Viet Cong units had launched an attack on Trang Bang, successfully cutting the road that ran through the village, forcing South Vietnamese troops to launch a counter attack. The use of napalm was delayed until the third day of the battle so as to give civilians a chance to escape the battle zone.The Historic &#8216;Napalm Girl&#8217; Pulitzer Image Marks Its 40th Anniversary - ABC News
Nick Ut&#8217;s Iconic Napalm Girl Photo | Photo This & That


----------



## JakeStarkey

Check stinger's source.  The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
Gerard Jackson (economic editor)
BrookesNews.Com
Monday 28 January 2008
http://brookesnews.com/index.html  Trail leads nowhere.  

Stinger's final paragraph needs better sourcing.


----------



## konradv

usmcstinger said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I think about Viet Nam these are the images that come to mind.
> 
> View attachment 23736 View attachment 23737 View attachment 23738
> 
> Click picture for larger version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know truth about the last 2 pictures? Read the link below.
> The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
> In taking that picture," Adams later told Parade magazine, "I had destroyed [Loan's] life. For General Loan had become a man condemned both in his country and in America because he had killed an enemy in war. People do this all the time in war, but rarely is a photographer there to record the act."
> Adams accepted Loan's explanation that the man he shot was a Viet Cong captain who had murdered several civilians.
> Years later, when Loan, who lost a leg during the war, was running a pizza parlor in suburban Washington, D.C., Adams visited him.
> "He told me, 'You were doing your job, and I was doing mine,' " Adams told Parade.
> Despite efforts to deport him, Loan lived out his life in Virginia, dying of cancer in 1998. "Photographs, you know, they're half-truths," Adams said a day after Loan's death.
> Often asked if he had it to do over, the photographer said: "If it happened again, I'd probably take the picture again -- it's my job."
> 
> 
> As Nick Ut, the man who snapped this Pulitzer Prize winning photo, said: If the Communists had only stayed in North Vietnam he said,this never would have happened. But our leftwing journalists Orwellian memory effectively filtered out Uts observation, leaving the picture to speak not for the victims of communism but for the left.
> Despite the photos insinuations and claims by the left, these children were not victims of an American napalm attack. North Vietnamese troops and some Viet Cong units had launched an attack on Trang Bang, successfully cutting the road that ran through the village, forcing South Vietnamese troops to launch a counter attack. The use of napalm was delayed until the third day of the battle so as to give civilians a chance to escape the battle zone.
Click to expand...


My analysis of the second picture still stands.  It was a civil war that shouldn't have been involved in.  Whatever the reason for the killing, it was a summary execution of the kind that would have been considered a war crime, if it were a Nazi officer and an underground partisan.

As for communists staying in the north, that presumes there weren't many already living in the south.  The war/insurgency was going on long before main elements of the NVN army took to the field.  As a matter of fact, it was the US involvement that brought them in.


----------



## there4eyeM

I remember many, many lies from military and government on both sides of the conflict. It was a ridiculous war for the US to fight. It was ridiculous of the VC and N. Vietnam to sacrifice so much so unnecessarily. 

The only people I don't remember lying were those who were resolutely and constantly against the war.


----------



## there4eyeM

"It was a ridiculous war for the US to fight."

In this way, it is like Afghanistan and Iraq. We could also add "foolish".


----------



## Papawx3

Rossuk said:


> Dear All
> 
> I am trying to find out if anyone clearly remembers the television footage from The Vietnam War as the event was unfolding? Did any TV footage stick in peoples minds or have photographs now taken over our memory of the war?
> 
> 
> All your comments are welcome
> 
> Thanks Ross



Man, now you're making me feel really, really old.  
I don't have to remember it on TV.  
I remember it in person.


----------



## Rossuk

Hi Konradv

Thanks for your reply, I was just thinking about how it can be difficult to remember events clearly when images like these are constantly in the media.  But like you say it must be hard to forget any of it if you were there. 

Would you be interested in discussing the Polaroids you saved? Or are they too personal?  

Thanks Ross


----------



## usmcstinger

JakeStarkey said:


> Check stinger's source.  The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
> Gerard Jackson (economic editor)
> BrookesNews.Com
> Monday 28 January 2008
> http://brookesnews.com/index.html  Trail leads nowhere.
> 
> Stinger's final paragraph needs better sourcing.



I added 2 more sources. Obviously, you never did any research in regard to the photos. You just accepted the left wing lies. 

The only thing you know about Combat in Vietnam is *you never experienced it*.


----------



## JakeStarkey

usmcstinger said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check stinger's source.  The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
> Gerard Jackson (economic editor)
> BrookesNews.Com
> Monday 28 January 2008
> http://brookesnews.com/index.html  Trail leads nowhere.
> 
> Stinger's final paragraph needs better sourcing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I added 2 more sources. Obviously, you never did any research in regard to the photos. You just accepted the left wing lies.  The only thing you know about Combat in Vietnam is *you never experienced it*.
Click to expand...


You act like a child because I chided you on the poor sourcing?  Really??  It's *your *job, stinger, not mine to make your narrative.  GTFU.


----------



## Oldguy

Rossuk said:


> Hi Konradv
> 
> Thanks for your reply, I was just thinking about how it can be difficult to remember events clearly when images like these are constantly in the media.  But like you say it must be hard to forget any of it if you were there.
> 
> Would you be interested in discussing the Polaroid&#8217;s you saved? Or are they too personal?
> 
> Thanks Ross




There are photographic images, and then there are real images burned into the mind which cannot be so easily deleted.  

During the time I was there, I carried a disposable Instamatic just about everywhere I went and took something like 500 pictures.  Each is a story unto itself, but each also calls up images which play through my mind like a video made just yesterday.  By looking at the photographs in chronological order, I can remember just about every detail of my time in Vietnam.  And, I have them in chronological order because I sent the film home to be developed, then the pictures were sent back to me for captioning, which included the dates and places, then returned home once again to Mom for saving.  

Those images crossed the Pacific three times, which seems cumbersome, but the end result is a record of my tour of duty which has withstood the ravages of time and a fading memory.   When I couple those with every single, solitary letter I wrote home from the war, also in order, not much has been forgotten, in spite of the intervening years and the other images I've seen since.

I will be forever indebted to my Mom for her diligence in keeping my letters and photographs intact until I came home, even though she knew I might not.


----------



## Trajan

rightwinger said:


> Believe it or not, but VietNam was actually fought in black and white
> 
> I remember each newscast (there were only three and they lasted a half hour) would have footage. Most was guys getting off a helicopter, some patrol type stuff....not a lot of "look at the dead bodies"
> 
> A lot of the really gross stuff was in still photographs
> 
> In spite of right wing revisionist history, Cronkite was great



Revisionist history like the NVA and NLF getting crushed during and after TET? 

On topic, thats what I remember too, choppers on LZs, infantry walking line formations etc. nothing epic. They did recite body counts though, big time, until it became unfashionable...


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Cronkite and Ernie Pyle should have traded places.


----------



## Trajan

JakeStarkey said:


> In fact, after France fell at Dien Bien Phu, Eisenhower picked up the military training and supplies side of propping up a pro-West government under the Diems.  The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement.  An aside: I find that Nixon's and Obama's involvements in Vietnam and Afghanistan parallel in several ways.
> 
> Our neo-cons cannot get it into their heads that we can change another country without massive treasure and manpower involved and with the aid of significant allies.



Your ignorance is showing again and you always seem to save it for a thread like this- Cabot lodge ( chosen personally by jfk) as ambassador, got deim assassinated, his hands are bloody as hell, deim and he knocked heads because, lodge wanted him to run the country like a western democracy , deim told him that would not work, Kennedy chose to accept his advice in the end and let deim go down, any , any chance of the south remaining free from the north died right there.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

usmcstinger said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I think about Viet Nam these are the images that come to mind.
> 
> View attachment 23736 View attachment 23737 View attachment 23738
> 
> Click picture for larger version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know truth about the last 2 pictures? Read the link below.
> The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
> In taking that picture," Adams later told Parade magazine, "I had destroyed [Loan's] life. For General Loan had become a man condemned both in his country and in America because he had killed an enemy in war. People do this all the time in war, but rarely is a photographer there to record the act."
> Adams accepted Loan's explanation that the man he shot was a Viet Cong captain who had murdered several civilians.
> Years later, when Loan, who lost a leg during the war, was running a pizza parlor in suburban Washington, D.C., Adams visited him.
> "He told me, 'You were doing your job, and I was doing mine,' " Adams told Parade.
> Despite efforts to deport him, Loan lived out his life in Virginia, dying of cancer in 1998. "Photographs, you know, they're half-truths," Adams said a day after Loan's death.
> Often asked if he had it to do over, the photographer said: "If it happened again, I'd probably take the picture again -- it's my job."
> 
> 
> As Nick Ut, the man who snapped this Pulitzer Prize winning photo, said: If the Communists had only stayed in North Vietnam he said,this never would have happened. But our leftwing journalists Orwellian memory effectively filtered out Uts observation, leaving the picture to speak not for the victims of communism but for the left.
> Despite the photos insinuations and claims by the left, these children were not victims of an American napalm attack. North Vietnamese troops and some Viet Cong units had launched an attack on Trang Bang, successfully cutting the road that ran through the village, forcing South Vietnamese troops to launch a counter attack. The use of napalm was delayed until the third day of the battle so as to give civilians a chance to escape the battle zone.The Historic Napalm Girl Pulitzer Image Marks Its 40th Anniversary - ABC News
> Nick Uts Iconic Napalm Girl Photo | Photo This & That
Click to expand...


Loan should have shot the photographer

Cronkite should be buried near Hanoi


----------



## JakeStarkey

Trajan said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, after France fell at Dien Bien Phu, Eisenhower picked up the military training and supplies side of propping up a pro-West government under the Diems.  The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement.  An aside: I find that Nixon's and Obama's involvements in Vietnam and Afghanistan parallel in several ways.
> 
> Our neo-cons cannot get it into their heads that we can change another country without massive treasure and manpower involved and with the aid of significant allies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing again and you always seem to save it for a thread like this- Cabot lodge ( chosen personally by jfk) as ambassador, got deim assassinated, his hands are bloody as hell, deim and he knocked heads because, lodge wanted him to run the country like a western democracy , deim told him that would not work, Kennedy chose to accept his advice in the end and let deim go down, any , any chance of the south remaining free from the north died right there.
Click to expand...


Trajan, are you willfully ignorant or do you it because you are stupid?  Nothing you wrote supercedes an iota of "The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement."  Diem's removal was part of American planning and operations.  Are you a fool by choice?


----------



## Trajan

JakeStarkey said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, after France fell at Dien Bien Phu, Eisenhower picked up the military training and supplies side of propping up a pro-West government under the Diems.  The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement.  An aside: I find that Nixon's and Obama's involvements in Vietnam and Afghanistan parallel in several ways.
> 
> Our neo-cons cannot get it into their heads that we can change another country without massive treasure and manpower involved and with the aid of significant allies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing again and you always seem to save it for a thread like this- Cabot lodge ( chosen personally by jfk) as ambassador, got deim assassinated, his hands are bloody as hell, deim and he knocked heads because, lodge wanted him to run the country like a western democracy , deim told him that would not work, Kennedy chose to accept his advice in the end and let deim go down, any , any chance of the south remaining free from the north died right there.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Trajan, are you willfully ignorant or do you it because you are stupid?  Nothing you wrote supercedes an iota of "The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement."  Diem's removal was part of American planning and operations.  Are you a fool by choice?
Click to expand...


Being called ignorant by you is actually a compliment IMHO. Thx. 

The deim removal was a disaster, the reasoning behind his assassination went down as I described, we did not plan it and the nod was last minute and reluctant, but to rfks credit he advised against it, stop googling and pick up a few books.


----------



## Bill Angel

Ernie S. said:


> I respected Cronkite, because you were supposed to; hell, everyone did. There _was_ no other version of the news.
> 
> I guess I wanted to hear the news the way he presented it too. After all, like most guys my age, I carried a 2"x 3" card in my wallet that said 1-A.
> 
> As was said, most of the film was helicopters and USO shows. The things that stick out were still photos.


The thing I remember most about the CBS newscasts about the Vietnam war was the body counts. The broadcasts were always emphasizing that US troops were killing a lot more of the enemy than the casualties being inflicted on US forces. I think that the ratio was something like 5 or 10 to 1 ( 5 or 10 enemy troops killed for each US soldier killed). The body count ratios  stayed that way until we lost the war.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Trajan said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance is showing again and you always seem to save it for a thread like this- Cabot lodge ( chosen personally by jfk) as ambassador, got deim assassinated, his hands are bloody as hell, deim and he knocked heads because, lodge wanted him to run the country like a western democracy , deim told him that would not work, Kennedy chose to accept his advice in the end and let deim go down, any , any chance of the south remaining free from the north died right there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trajan, are you willfully ignorant or do you it because you are stupid?  Nothing you wrote supercedes an iota of "The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement."  Diem's removal was part of American planning and operations.  Are you a fool by choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being called ignorant by you is actually a compliment IMHO. Thx.
> 
> The deim removal was a disaster, the reasoning behind his assassination went down as I described, we did not plan it and the nod was last minute and reluctant, but to rfks credit he advised against it, stop googling and pick up a few books.
Click to expand...


You need to study the subject.  Do you want a good reading list before you reveal your ass again?


----------



## midcan5

Rossuk said:


> Hi Midcan5
> 
> Thanks for your comment and clips they are really interesting!
> Now that the Rambo movies ect have all become part of the past do you think peoples perception of the war will start to change through youtube ect? How do you think future generations in the Western world should remember Vietnam?



I started to answer another of your questions before I read this one, so below === is a comment on changing attitudes - a tongue in cheek rant.

As for how they 'should' remember it, that is a tough question. How do we manage power when power is often afraid. Probably a honest and frank appraisal of history is one way. What works best. Some recent involvements worked to lessen the carnage and advance or give the people some chance to figure it out. Not to excuse dumb policy, but history has to be seen in the perspective of the time. While it is a slow and uneven process, even social change evolves. How the idea that we all in this together is eventually embedded in the thought process of humanity is the dream of dreamers. The golden rule has been around a long time and sometimes dreams work. (I have to think more on this.) 

===

This may sound jingoistic, a bit tongue in cheek, I once asked if an American would buy an al-Qaeda made car. 'Are you kidding me!' Then why do you have a Semper Fi sticker on your Japanese car? The oddest, or is that complex sun shield I have ever seen was a Iwo Jima 'raising the flag' graphic on a Suzuki SUV. I have seen Disabled Vet licence plates on Japanese cars, saw one yesterday. So will the image of Vietnam change, of course, and Americans aren't even the forgiving Amish. (Although these shows on the Amish today contradict that image) Marketing has great power. Time too. Clothing made in Vietnam is available in Macy's now. When I first saw that I thought of a nerdy friend in HS, he finally had a serious girlfriend, died in Nam. 

Marketing is a marvelous thing, during a NASCAR race this past summer a minister thanked Toyota among other dignitaries, even that guy high up in the sky. But Japan is smart, they build here, have nice ads, fair prices and they support their businesses in all areas. Americans on the other hand are so warped today they hate the fact an American company was helped by their own government. Rich Americans buy Lexus or Infinity for status, symbols.  America ain't good enough for them. Instant ego builders? Reagan's fabled Cadillac mom would now drive a Lexus. With the draft gone attitudes will change even more as experience, or even the potential of experience disappears, war becomes business, maybe all of life is just business we just think it something else. So to answer, one day a fancy car made in Vietnam will race in nascar and be praised by a minister and maybe even make Lexus look like a poor person's only choice.  




Spoonman said:


> now if the liberal kennedy hadn't started the war and the liberal johnson escalated it, we wouldn't have had this mess.



Ideas have more power than people assume. You forget Nam engagement started long before Johnson. Truman and even Eisenhower were involved. History isn't so simple. You also forget the Cold War and the McCarthy era of American politics. Were you opposed to Iraq? It made less sense than Nam given the different time frames. And yet lots supported Iraq which could easily be classified as an illegal invasion. Communism became Terrorism. It is a sign of the times that Americans do not know their own history nor understand the factors that affect that history. It may always be that way for the writers of history are often motivated by ideology, and those who follow them fail to see the complexity, they assume they know something they don't.


----------



## Warrior102

Bill Angel said:


> The thing I remember most about the CBS newscasts about the Vietnam war was the body counts.



I too remember that. 

I also remember the nightly "Body Counts" when GW Bush was in office. 
That stopped when the Draftdodging Chickenhawk Warmonger King Obama was selected.


----------



## Oldguy

Bill Angel said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I respected Cronkite, because you were supposed to; hell, everyone did. There _was_ no other version of the news.
> 
> I guess I wanted to hear the news the way he presented it too. After all, like most guys my age, I carried a 2"x 3" card in my wallet that said 1-A.
> 
> As was said, most of the film was helicopters and USO shows. The things that stick out were still photos.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing I remember most about the CBS newscasts about the Vietnam war was the body counts. The broadcasts were always emphasizing that US troops were killing a lot more of the enemy than the casualties being inflicted on US forces. I think that the ratio was something like 5 or 10 to 1 ( 5 or 10 enemy troops killed for each US soldier killed). The body count ratios  stayed that way until we lost the war.
Click to expand...



I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in those body count numbers.  I was present when an Orangutang, a pig and a civilian unlucky enough to walk into a mechanical ambush were claimed as VC KIA's.  And, a dog which also hit an MA was claimed as 2 KIA's (4 legs, you see).


----------



## Trajan

JakeStarkey said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trajan, are you willfully ignorant or do you it because you are stupid?  Nothing you wrote supercedes an iota of "The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement."  Diem's removal was part of American planning and operations.  Are you a fool by choice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being called ignorant by you is actually a compliment IMHO. Thx.
> 
> The deim removal was a disaster, the reasoning behind his assassination went down as I described, we did not plan it and the nod was last minute and reluctant, but to rfks credit he advised against it, stop googling and pick up a few books.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You need to study the subject.  Do you want a good reading list before you reveal your ass again?
Click to expand...


bring it on.


----------



## Trajan

midcan5 said:


> Rossuk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Midcan5
> 
> Thanks for your comment and clips they are really interesting!
> Now that the Rambo movies ect have all become part of the past do you think peoples perception of the war will start to change through youtube ect? How do you think future generations in the Western world should remember Vietnam?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I started to answer another of your questions before I read this one, so below === is a comment on changing attitudes - a tongue in cheek rant.
> 
> As for how they 'should' remember it, that is a tough question. How do we manage power when power is often afraid. Probably a honest and frank appraisal of history is one way. What works best. Some recent involvements worked to lessen the carnage and advance or give the people some chance to figure it out. Not to excuse dumb policy, but history has to be seen in the perspective of the time. While it is a slow and uneven process, even social change evolves. How the idea that we all in this together is eventually embedded in the thought process of humanity is the dream of dreamers. The golden rule has been around a long time and sometimes dreams work. (I have to think more on this.)
> 
> ===
> 
> This may sound jingoistic, a bit tongue in cheek, I once asked if an American would buy an al-Qaeda made car. 'Are you kidding me!' Then why do you have a Semper Fi sticker on your Japanese car? The oddest, or is that complex sun shield I have ever seen was a Iwo Jima 'raising the flag' graphic on a Suzuki SUV. I have seen Disabled Vet licence plates on Japanese cars, saw one yesterday. So will the image of Vietnam change, of course, and Americans aren't even the forgiving Amish. (Although these shows on the Amish today contradict that image) Marketing has great power. Time too. Clothing made in Vietnam is available in Macy's now. When I first saw that I thought of a nerdy friend in HS, he finally had a serious girlfriend, died in Nam.
> 
> Marketing is a marvelous thing, during a NASCAR race this past summer a minister thanked Toyota among other dignitaries, even that guy high up in the sky. But Japan is smart, they build here, have nice ads, fair prices and they support their businesses in all areas. Americans on the other hand are so warped today they hate the fact an American company was helped by their own government. Rich Americans buy Lexus or Infinity for status, symbols.  America ain't good enough for them. Instant ego builders? Reagan's fabled Cadillac mom would now drive a Lexus. With the draft gone attitudes will change even more as experience, or even the potential of experience disappears, war becomes business, maybe all of life is just business we just think it something else. So to answer, one day a fancy car made in Vietnam will race in nascar and be praised by a minister and maybe even make Lexus look like a poor person's only choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> 
> now if the liberal kennedy hadn't started the war and the liberal johnson escalated it, we wouldn't have had this mess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ideas have more power than people assume. You forget Nam engagement started long before Johnson. Truman and even Eisenhower were involved. History isn't so simple. You also forget the Cold War and the McCarthy era of American politics. Were you opposed to Iraq? It made less sense than Nam given the different time frames. And yet lots supported Iraq which could easily be classified as an illegal invasion. Communism became Terrorism. It is a sign of the times that Americans do not know their own history nor understand the factors that affect that history. It may always be that way for the writers of history are often motivated by ideology, and those who follow them fail to see the complexity, they assume they know something they don't.
Click to expand...


I see your last paragraph as a not so clever  attmept at exonerating in part the Democrats who got us into Vietnam with both feet by hooking in Ike as a sort of co-conspirator for political cover....thats not going to work,  Eisenhower was literally begged almost on knees by the French gov. to enact Operation Vulture, ( please google it since its obviously a surprise to you and I am sure jake who don't appear to have read books on the era or topic) which he refused ostensibly becasue the UK backed out, but he already knew they would, so he never really was even considering it.


----------



## Rossuk

Hi Konradv

Thanks again for your reply! I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America. It sounds like these records of what happened to you are an invaluable piece of your past.  

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now.  The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubricss- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved? 

Thanks Ross


----------



## usmcstinger

JakeStarkey said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check stinger's source.  The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
> Gerard Jackson (economic editor)
> BrookesNews.Com
> Monday 28 January 2008
> http://brookesnews.com/index.html  Trail leads nowhere.
> 
> Stinger's final paragraph needs better sourcing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I added 2 more sources. Obviously, you never did any research in regard to the photos. You just accepted the left wing lies.  The only thing you know about Combat in Vietnam is *you never experienced it*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You act like a child because I chided you on the poor sourcing?  Really??  It's *your *job, stinger, not mine to make your narrative.  GTFU.
Click to expand...


I am a Vietnam Combat Vet who is sick and tired of people like you who continue to perpetuate the myths of the War. KMFA.


----------



## Warrior102

Rossuk said:


> For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now.  The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubricss- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved?



Make sure to include the usual Liberal BS "we lost the war" in your essay, assfucker.


----------



## usmcstinger

CrusaderFrank said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I think about Viet Nam these are the images that come to mind.
> 
> View attachment 23736 View attachment 23737 View attachment 23738
> 
> Click picture for larger version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know truth about the last 2 pictures? Read the link below.
> The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
> In taking that picture," Adams later told Parade magazine, "I had destroyed [Loan's] life. For General Loan had become a man condemned both in his country and in America because he had killed an enemy in war. People do this all the time in war, but rarely is a photographer there to record the act."
> Adams accepted Loan's explanation that the man he shot was a Viet Cong captain who had murdered several civilians.
> Years later, when Loan, who lost a leg during the war, was running a pizza parlor in suburban Washington, D.C., Adams visited him.
> "He told me, 'You were doing your job, and I was doing mine,' " Adams told Parade.
> Despite efforts to deport him, Loan lived out his life in Virginia, dying of cancer in 1998. "Photographs, you know, they're half-truths," Adams said a day after Loan's death.
> Often asked if he had it to do over, the photographer said: "If it happened again, I'd probably take the picture again -- it's my job."
> 
> 
> As Nick Ut, the man who snapped this Pulitzer Prize winning photo, said: If the Communists had only stayed in North Vietnam he said,this never would have happened. But our leftwing journalists Orwellian memory effectively filtered out Uts observation, leaving the picture to speak not for the victims of communism but for the left.
> Despite the photos insinuations and claims by the left, these children were not victims of an American napalm attack. North Vietnamese troops and some Viet Cong units had launched an attack on Trang Bang, successfully cutting the road that ran through the village, forcing South Vietnamese troops to launch a counter attack. The use of napalm was delayed until the third day of the battle so as to give civilians a chance to escape the battle zone.The Historic Napalm Girl Pulitzer Image Marks Its 40th Anniversary - ABC News
> Nick Uts Iconic Napalm Girl Photo | Photo This & That
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Loan should have shot the photographer
> 
> Cronkite should be buried near Hanoi
Click to expand...


Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.


----------



## konradv

usmcstinger said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know truth about the last 2 pictures? Read the link below.
> The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
> In taking that picture," Adams later told Parade magazine, "I had destroyed [Loan's] life. For General Loan had become a man condemned both in his country and in America because he had killed an enemy in war. People do this all the time in war, but rarely is a photographer there to record the act."
> Adams accepted Loan's explanation that the man he shot was a Viet Cong captain who had murdered several civilians.
> Years later, when Loan, who lost a leg during the war, was running a pizza parlor in suburban Washington, D.C., Adams visited him.
> "He told me, 'You were doing your job, and I was doing mine,' " Adams told Parade.
> Despite efforts to deport him, Loan lived out his life in Virginia, dying of cancer in 1998. "Photographs, you know, they're half-truths," Adams said a day after Loan's death.
> Often asked if he had it to do over, the photographer said: "If it happened again, I'd probably take the picture again -- it's my job."
> 
> 
> As Nick Ut, the man who snapped this Pulitzer Prize winning photo, said: If the Communists had only stayed in North Vietnam he said,this never would have happened. But our leftwing journalists Orwellian memory effectively filtered out Uts observation, leaving the picture to speak not for the victims of communism but for the left.
> Despite the photos insinuations and claims by the left, these children were not victims of an American napalm attack. North Vietnamese troops and some Viet Cong units had launched an attack on Trang Bang, successfully cutting the road that ran through the village, forcing South Vietnamese troops to launch a counter attack. The use of napalm was delayed until the third day of the battle so as to give civilians a chance to escape the battle zone.The Historic Napalm Girl Pulitzer Image Marks Its 40th Anniversary - ABC News
> Nick Uts Iconic Napalm Girl Photo | Photo This & That
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loan should have shot the photographer
> 
> Cronkite should be buried near Hanoi
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.
Click to expand...


I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.  The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country.  Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.


----------



## usmcstinger

konradv said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Loan should have shot the photographer
> 
> Cronkite should be buried near Hanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.  The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country.  Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.
Click to expand...


 A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.


----------



## konradv

usmcstinger said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.  The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country.  Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.
> 
> Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.
Click to expand...


The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.


----------



## Oldguy

konradv said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.  The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country.  Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.
> 
> Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
Click to expand...



Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.


----------



## konradv

Oldguy said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.
> 
> Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.
Click to expand...


Diem was also more interested in preserving his own power than fighting Communists.  That meant preserving the army as much as possible and staffing it with cronies that would keep him in power.  Any commander who lost too many men was sacked, so his officers played it safe and did as little fighting as possible.


----------



## Rossuk

Hi Konradv

Thanks again for your reply! I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America. It sounds like these records of what happened to you are an invaluable piece of your past. 

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubrics&#8217;s- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved? 

Thanks Ross


----------



## Rossuk

Hi Midcan 5 
I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America. 

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubricss- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved? 

Thanks Ross


----------



## Trajan

konradv said:


> Oldguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Diem was also more interested in preserving his own power than fighting Communists.  That meant preserving the army as much as possible and staffing it with cronies that would keep him in power.  Any commander who lost too many men was sacked, so his officers played it safe and did as little fighting as possible.
Click to expand...


no , I am sorry but you are conflating and innocently mis- characterizing .

example-  the strategic hamlet program for instance was  on its way to to a huge measure of success. But in fits and starts...why? 

Because In order for it to be a success Deim had to be IN power. 

So when he was threatened he had to pull troops in from the country side or keep elite units close to Saigon, ANY and every commander there after did  same, the how many, 9 governments that came after Deim and before the fall in 75 all did the same, when we recognized Deim a lot of that went away, which was a good thing. BUT we did not and could not sit on  it all.


----------



## Trajan

Oldguy said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.
> 
> Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.
Click to expand...


thats a bit of a mis-characterization too.

 Diem and Bo-Dai had had run off if you will, Diem won handily. 

now if your point is the election was rigged a bit  for Diem I agree, but really, the south was tired of Bo Dai who had spent most of his time holed up in Hue, Dalat or the French Riviera anyway and, this is key ; the plebiscite you name would have been just as dirty as this one was....so, its a wash.


----------



## konradv

Trajan said:


> Oldguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> thats a bit of a mis-characterization too.
> 
> Diem and Bo-Dai had had run off if you will, Diem won handily.
> 
> now if your point is the election was rigged a bit  for Diem I agree, but really, the south was tired of Bo Dai who had spent most of his time holed up in Hue, Dalat or the French Riviera anyway and, this is key ; *the plebiscite you name would have been just as dirty as this one was*....so, its a wash.
Click to expand...


You don't know that.  All that's certain is that we came down on the side of not allowing the people to have their say.  It shouldn't have been our decision.  We took that away and millions died.  How can you justify that?


----------



## Oldguy

Trajan said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diem was also more interested in preserving his own power than fighting Communists.  That meant preserving the army as much as possible and staffing it with cronies that would keep him in power.  Any commander who lost too many men was sacked, so his officers played it safe and did as little fighting as possible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no , I am sorry but you are conflating and innocently mis- characterizing .
> 
> example-  the strategic hamlet program for instance was  on its way to to a huge measure of success. But in fits and starts...why?
> 
> Because In order for it to be a success Deim had to be IN power.
> 
> So when he was threatened he had to pull troops in from the country side or keep elite units close to Saigon, ANY and every commander there after did  same, the how many, 9 governments that came after Deim and before the fall in 75 all did the same, when we recognized Deim a lot of that went away, which was a good thing. BUT we did not and could not sit on  it all.
Click to expand...



You should ask the residents forcibly removed from their villages and ancestral land whether or not the strategic hamlet program was a huge success.  Or, ask the residents of Duc Duc.


----------



## georgephillip

" The title is taken from an order given to the U.S. forces who slaughtered more than 500 Vietnamese civilians in the notorious My Lai massacre of 1968. 

"Drawing on interviews in Vietnam and a trove of previously unknown U.S. government documents  *including internal military investigations of alleged war crimes in Vietnam*  Turse argues that U.S. atrocities in Vietnam were not just isolated incidents, but '*the inevitable outcome of deliberate policies*, dictated at the highest levels of the military.'"

"Kill Anything That Moves": New Book Exposes Hidden Crimes of the War Kerry, Hagel Fought in Vietnam


----------



## TruthSeeker56

Truthmatters said:


> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> 
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> 
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> 
> He refused.
> 
> the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> 
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> 
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> Thankfully I only spent a few months wondering if my brother would end up coming home in a box.
> 
> Many little sisters fears were realised in that horrible fucking mess that was the Veitnam war.



I don't believe this MYTH about your brother for a second, but just in case there is a shred of truth to your "story", then your brother's actions were those of a COWARD.

It runs in the family.


----------



## usmcstinger

konradv said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.  The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country.  Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.
> 
> Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
Click to expand...


According to the Geneva Convention: One of the documents called on the brand new governments off North and South Vietnam to *hold joint elections* in 1956, in which voters from both countries would vote to *choose a single government *under which the two nations would be merged into one. Not just in South Vietnam as you erroneously stated
The Ho Chi Minh regime in North Vietnam was so brutal in its repression of its own people that something like one million people* voted with their feet by fleeing to the South*. According to this Wikipedia page, as many as three million people might have fled the North if the Communist government had not stopped most of them.

 Paris Peace Accords of January 27, 1973, were the beginning of the end of South Vietnam. There would be an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send military supplies); North Vietnam was allowed to keep its 200,000 troops in the South but was not allowed to send new ones.
Fall of South Vietnam - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
In addition:There would an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send Both sides agreed to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Laos and Cambodia and the prohibition of bases in and troop movements through these countries. It was agreed that the DMZ at the 17th 
Parallel would remain a provisional dividing line, with eventual reunification of the country "*through peaceful means.*" An international control commission would be established made up of Canadians, Hungarians, Poles, and Indonesians, with 1,160 inspectors to supervise the agreement. According to the agreement, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu would continue in office pending elections.  Agreeing to "the South Vietnamese People's right to self-determination,"the North Vietnamese said they would not initiate military movement across the DMZ and that there would be no use of force to reunify the country. Paris Peace Accords signed ? History.com This Day in History ? 1/27/1973

On January 13, 1975 ( In Violation of the Paris Peace Accords ), The North Vietnamese Army invaded and took control of South Vietnam. 
North Vietnam violated every aspect of the Paris Peace Accords. A 6th grader knows that Democracy does not exist in a Communist country. 

Hey dimwit. It is you who does not know history. Try doing some research before you make a fool of yourself.


----------



## Dante

Katzndogz said:


> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.



Are you reading for the role of Archie Bunker? 

you are sooooo full of shit


----------



## Dante

Warrior102 said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto
Click to expand...


another bullshit artist. neither can name a newscast where this was their opinion at the time.  It is all memory altered by a constant screech of right wing noise


----------



## Dante

rightwinger said:


> Believe it or not, but VietNam was actually fought in black and white
> 
> I remember each newscast (there were only three and they lasted a half hour) would have footage. Most was guys getting off a helicopter, some patrol type stuff....not a lot of "look at the dead bodies"
> 
> A lot of the really gross stuff was in still photographs
> 
> In spite of right wing revisionist history, Cronkite was great



I remember it was on the nightly news. I remember Tet and a few other instances seemed to scare the shit out of all the adults around. 

I grew up with adults full of fears of a Boston Strangler, Bay of Pigs, Assassinations, Space Program stuff, race riots, the hippies and yippies and summer(s) of luv, anti-war rallies, the peace movement...the 60s was a heady time for a precocious kid


----------



## Dante

Truthmatters said:


> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> 
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> 
> 
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> 
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> 
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> 
> 
> He refused.
> 
> 
> the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> 
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> 
> 
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> 
> 
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> 
> Thankfully I only spent a few months wondering if my brother would end up coming home in a box.
> 
> 
> Many little sisters fears were realised in that horrible fucking mess that was the Veitnam war.



why does truthseeker in post # 103 attack your whole family?


----------



## Dante

Rossuk said:


> Hi Konradv
> 
> Thanks again for your reply! I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America. It sounds like these records of what happened to you are an invaluable piece of your past.
> 
> For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubricss- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved?
> 
> Thanks Ross



call Senator John Kerry's office.

btw, instead of the bullshit here try looking at the Max Cleland: Digital Collection: Veterans History Project (Library of Congress)


----------



## Dante

Sallow said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well..
> 
> Be clear.
> 
> When did Cronkite lie?
Click to expand...


yeah...still....waiting....for this one....


----------



## Dante

rightwinger said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well..
> 
> Be clear.
> 
> When did Cronkite lie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive.   We won, decisively.   That was the lie that turned the war.   General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself.  All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory.  That's exactly what happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> snopes.com: General Vo Nguyen Giap on Vietnam
Click to expand...

What Cronkite actually said?

"For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. This summer&#8217;s almost certain standoff will either end in real give-and-take negotiations or terrible escalation; and for every means we have to escalate, the enemy can match us, and that applies to invasion of the North, the use of nuclear weapons, or the mere commitment of one hundred, or two hundred, or three hundred thousand more American troops to the battle. And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the brink of cosmic disaster."

there are video links on this page:  http://www.pbs.org/weta/reportingamericaatwar/reporters/cronkite/#


----------



## georgephillip

usmcstinger said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.
> 
> Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> According to the Geneva Convention: One of the documents called on the brand new governments off North and South Vietnam to *hold joint elections* in 1956, in which voters from both countries would vote to *choose a single government *under which the two nations would be merged into one. Not just in South Vietnam as you erroneously stated
> The Ho Chi Minh regime in North Vietnam was so brutal in its repression of its own people that something like one million people* voted with their feet by fleeing to the South*. According to this Wikipedia page, as many as three million people might have fled the North if the Communist government had not stopped most of them.
> 
> Paris Peace Accords of January 27, 1973, were the beginning of the end of South Vietnam. There would be an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send military supplies); North Vietnam was allowed to keep its 200,000 troops in the South but was not allowed to send new ones.
> Fall of South Vietnam - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
> In addition:There would an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send Both sides agreed to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Laos and Cambodia and the prohibition of bases in and troop movements through these countries. It was agreed that the DMZ at the 17th
> Parallel would remain a provisional dividing line, with eventual reunification of the country "*through peaceful means.*" An international control commission would be established made up of Canadians, Hungarians, Poles, and Indonesians, with 1,160 inspectors to supervise the agreement. According to the agreement, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu would continue in office pending elections.  Agreeing to "the South Vietnamese People's right to self-determination,"the North Vietnamese said they would not initiate military movement across the DMZ and that there would be no use of force to reunify the country. Paris Peace Accords signed ? History.com This Day in History ? 1/27/1973
> 
> On January 13, 1975 ( In Violation of the Paris Peace Accords ), The North Vietnamese Army invaded and took control of South Vietnam.
> North Vietnam violated every aspect of the Paris Peace Accords. A 6th grader knows that Democracy does not exist in a Communist country.
> 
> Hey dimwit. It is you who does not know history. Try doing some research before you make a fool of yourself.
Click to expand...

*From Wiki*:

"The colonial administration ended and French Indochina was dissolved under the Geneva Accords of 1954, which separated the forces of former French supporters and communist nationalists at the 17th parallel north with the Vietnamese Demilitarized Zone. 

"A 300-day period of free movement was given, *during which almost a million northerners, mainly Catholic, moved south, fearing persecution by the communists*.

"The partition of Vietnam, with Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam in North Vietnam, and Emperor B&#7843;o &#272;&#7841;i's State of Vietnam in South Vietnam, was not intended to be permanent by the Geneva Accords, *and the Accords expressly forbade the interference of third powers*. 

"However, in 1955, the State of Vietnam's Prime Minister, Ngo Dinh Diem, toppled B&#7843;o &#272;&#7841;i in a fraudulent referendum organised by his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu, and proclaimed himself president of the Republic of Vietnam. 

"The Accords mandated nationwide elections by 1956, *which Diem refused to hold*, despite repeated calls from the North for talks to discuss elections."

Third graders know Uncle Ho would have won that election easier than G. Washington won his.

Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Warrior102

Dante said:


> another bullshit artist. neither can name a newscast where this was their opinion at the time.  It is all memory altered by a constant screech of right wing noise



Hardly, dildo


----------



## Godboy

Truthmatters said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> He refused.
> the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> He refused to hold a gun.
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> 
> 
> STFU you lying vodka soaked ****........
> 
> In those days if you threw your weapon at a D.I.
> 
> 3 OR 4 of them would have beat the crap out of you and said you slipped in the shower.
> 
> And Dishonorable discharges are not automatically changed to Honorable you freakin nitwit.
> 
> 
> We had a couple of drafted guys in our unit during basic training who didn't want hold a weapon in combat. (thinking this would exempt them from going to Vietnam)
> 
> They still had to complete the weapons portion of basic training. Then were given "Conscientious Objector" status and sent to Ft. Sam Houston for training to be Medics. (medics do not carry weapons)
> 
> But the joke was on the them. Because immediately after graduation from Medics school they were sent straight to Vietnam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he didnt refuse to hold it in combat.
> 
> He refused to hold it at all.
> 
> 
> He would throw it to the  gound or back at the drill sargent.
> 
> He was too tuff for them to break at 18 fucking years old.
> 
> They could not break him.
> 
> He said he could tell the Drilly was awed by him in the end.
Click to expand...


That never happened. Your brother lied and you were dumb enough to believe it.


----------



## namvet

I watched it on TV. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-FibDxpkb0]Lyndon Johnson - Remarks on Decision to not seek Reelection - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## techieny

I watched it in real time.  I ETS'd October 26th 1972 !


----------



## namvet

techieny said:


> i watched it in real time.  I ets'd october 26th 1972 !



so did I in 1968


----------



## Sunni Man

I remember sitting in the living room watching the TV with my father as Pres. Johnson gave his speech about not seeking re-election.

My father was a 26yr. active duty career Army officer and a WWII and Korean War veteran.

He looked clearly distressed as he watch Pres. Johnson cowardly slink away from leadership.

I really didn't understand what was going on.

But what the heck; that was adult stuff that didn't affect me.

Besides, I was a teenager with a hot rod 57 Chevy and an even hotter girlfriend.

Life was good.

Then one day I received my "Greetings" letter from the new President.........


----------



## Trajan

Dante said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, but VietNam was actually fought in black and white
> 
> I remember each newscast (there were only three and they lasted a half hour) would have footage. Most was guys getting off a helicopter, some patrol type stuff....not a lot of "look at the dead bodies"
> 
> A lot of the really gross stuff was in still photographs
> 
> In spite of right wing revisionist history, Cronkite was great
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember it was on the nightly news. I remember Tet and a few other instances seemed to scare the shit out of all the adults around.
> 
> I grew up with adults full of fears of a Boston Strangler, Bay of Pigs, Assassinations, Space Program stuff, race riots, the hippies and yippies and summer(s) of luv, anti-war rallies, the peace movement...the 60s was a heady time for a precocious kid
Click to expand...



How old R U Dante


----------



## Trajan

konradv said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thats a bit of a mis-characterization too.
> 
> Diem and Bo-Dai had had run off if you will, Diem won handily.
> 
> now if your point is the election was rigged a bit  for Diem I agree, but really, the south was tired of Bo Dai who had spent most of his time holed up in Hue, Dalat or the French Riviera anyway and, this is key ; *the plebiscite you name would have been just as dirty as this one was*....so, its a wash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't know that.  All that's certain is that we came down on the side of not allowing the people to have their say.  It shouldn't have been our decision.  We took that away and millions died.  How can you justify that?
Click to expand...


rigt, becasue the the 'election' of Ho chi Minh was, what again?

I am not justifying anything, stop being emotional or this will go no where

can you justify the riots and uprisings that took place, that was brutally smashed in the north when they got tired of sending their men to and feeding the NLF in the south? 

Question how many people on a comparative basis do you think died due to governments machinations,  more in the north or more in the south?


----------



## Trajan

Oldguy said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diem was also more interested in preserving his own power than fighting Communists.  That meant preserving the army as much as possible and staffing it with cronies that would keep him in power.  Any commander who lost too many men was sacked, so his officers played it safe and did as little fighting as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no , I am sorry but you are conflating and innocently mis- characterizing .
> 
> example-  the strategic hamlet program for instance was  on its way to to a huge measure of success. But in fits and starts...why?
> 
> Because In order for it to be a success Deim had to be IN power.
> 
> So when he was threatened he had to pull troops in from the country side or keep elite units close to Saigon, ANY and every commander there after did  same, the how many, 9 governments that came after Deim and before the fall in 75 all did the same, when we recognized Deim a lot of that went away, which was a good thing. BUT we did not and could not sit on  it all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You should ask the residents forcibly removed from their villages and ancestral land whether or not the strategic hamlet program was a huge success.  Or, ask the residents of Duc Duc.
Click to expand...


I agree and Diem was planning on fixing the land "ownership" issue once he took care of the Viet Cong,  however, I submit  it was better than  the alternative in many respects, it wasn't perfect, nope but as I said, the tender mercies visited upon Ho's rice tillers was far worse, and add to that, the NLF didn't exactly have a lot to offer aside from talk, they spoke smoothly and promised much, and they didn't mean any of it.


----------



## georgephillip

"After the French were defeated, it looked as if independence and land reform would come again through the Geneva Agreement. 

"*But instead there came the United States*, determined that Ho should not unify the temporarily divided nation, and the peasants watched again as we supported one of the most vicious modern dictators, our chosen man, Premier Diem. 

"The peasants watched and cringed as Diem ruthlessly rooted out all opposition, supported their extortionist landlords, and refused even to discuss reunification with the North. 

"The peasants watched as all this was presided over by United States' influence and then by increasing numbers of United States troops who came to help quell the insurgency that Diem's methods had aroused. 

"When Diem was overthrown they may have been happy, but the long line of military dictators seemed to offer no real change, especially in terms of their need for land and peace."

American Rhetoric: Martin Luther King, Jr: A Time to Break Silence (Declaration Against the Vietnam War)


----------



## usmcstinger

georgephillip said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plebiscite was to be held in the south.  You don't seem to know much about the history.  We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Geneva Convention: One of the documents called on the brand new governments off North and South Vietnam to *hold joint elections* in 1956, in which voters from both countries would vote to *choose a single government *under which the two nations would be merged into one. Not just in South Vietnam as you erroneously stated
> The Ho Chi Minh regime in North Vietnam was so brutal in its repression of its own people that something like one million people* voted with their feet by fleeing to the South*. According to this Wikipedia page, as many as three million people might have fled the North if the Communist government had not stopped most of them.
> 
> Paris Peace Accords of January 27, 1973, were the beginning of the end of South Vietnam. There would be an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send military supplies); North Vietnam was allowed to keep its 200,000 troops in the South but was not allowed to send new ones.
> Fall of South Vietnam - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
> In addition:There would an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send Both sides agreed to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Laos and Cambodia and the prohibition of bases in and troop movements through these countries. It was agreed that the DMZ at the 17th
> Parallel would remain a provisional dividing line, with eventual reunification of the country "*through peaceful means.*" An international control commission would be established made up of Canadians, Hungarians, Poles, and Indonesians, with 1,160 inspectors to supervise the agreement. According to the agreement, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu would continue in office pending elections.  Agreeing to "the South Vietnamese People's right to self-determination,"the North Vietnamese said they would not initiate military movement across the DMZ and that there would be no use of force to reunify the country. Paris Peace Accords signed ? History.com This Day in History ? 1/27/1973
> 
> On January 13, 1975 ( In Violation of the Paris Peace Accords ), The North Vietnamese Army invaded and took control of South Vietnam.
> North Vietnam violated every aspect of the Paris Peace Accords. A 6th grader knows that Democracy does not exist in a Communist country.
> 
> Hey dimwit. It is you who does not know history. Try doing some research before you make a fool of yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *From Wiki*:
> 
> "The colonial administration ended and French Indochina was dissolved under the Geneva Accords of 1954, which separated the forces of former French supporters and communist nationalists at the 17th parallel north with the Vietnamese Demilitarized Zone.
> 
> "A 300-day period of free movement was given, *during which almost a million northerners, mainly Catholic, moved south, fearing persecution by the communists*.
> 
> "The partition of Vietnam, with Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam in North Vietnam, and Emperor B&#7843;o &#272;&#7841;i's State of Vietnam in South Vietnam, was not intended to be permanent by the Geneva Accords, *and the Accords expressly forbade the interference of third powers*.
> 
> "However, in 1955, the State of Vietnam's Prime Minister, Ngo Dinh Diem, toppled B&#7843;o &#272;&#7841;i in a fraudulent referendum organised by his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu, and proclaimed himself president of the Republic of Vietnam.
> 
> "The Accords mandated nationwide elections by 1956, *which Diem refused to hold*, despite repeated calls from the North for talks to discuss elections."
> 
> Third graders know Uncle Ho would have won that election easier than G. Washington won his.
> 
> Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

*You and others like you may learn something by reading the following books: A Vietcong Memoir: An Inside Account of the Vietnam War and Its Aftermath by Toung Nhu Tang
Following Ho Chi Minh: The Memoirs of a North Vietnamese Colonel by Bui Tin, Do Van and Judy Stowe (Jan 1999) *   The Game is Over.


----------



## Oldguy

There's always more to the story, and so it is with the lore of millions voting with their feet and moving south during the days of partition:

The VVA Veteran - The Numbers Game: How Many Vietnamese Fled South in 1954

In short, it didn't happen the way people now think it did, nor was the number nearly 2 million.  It wasn't even 1 million.  In fact, when you discount French troops and civilians, plus those who had actively assisted the French during the war with the Viet Minh, or worked for them (and had an idea of what the Viet Minh had in store for them in retribution), the number falls to somewhat less than 500,000.  Even that number is little more than a guess.

Moreover, the evacuation of the North (Tonkin) was a huge operation, consisting of large numbers of ships and aircraft and it enjoyed the active support of the United States, which spent $40 million on it, a substantial sum at the time.  However, there was no companion effort for those who wished to go north, nor was there an extensive propaganda campaign to encourage them to do so, as there was in Tonkin.  A few Polish and Russian ships showed up, and the French carried some back north as they returned for another load of "refugees," but it was pretty much an ad hoc operation.

The point is that American propaganda at the time has entered the history books as established fact, but it isn't so.


----------



## PUCrussel

Never before....


----------



## georgephillip

usmcstinger said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Geneva Convention: One of the documents called on the brand new governments off North and South Vietnam to *hold joint elections* in 1956, in which voters from both countries would vote to *choose a single government *under which the two nations would be merged into one. Not just in South Vietnam as you erroneously stated
> The Ho Chi Minh regime in North Vietnam was so brutal in its repression of its own people that something like one million people* voted with their feet by fleeing to the South*. According to this Wikipedia page, as many as three million people might have fled the North if the Communist government had not stopped most of them.
> 
> Paris Peace Accords of January 27, 1973, were the beginning of the end of South Vietnam. There would be an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send military supplies); North Vietnam was allowed to keep its 200,000 troops in the South but was not allowed to send new ones.
> Fall of South Vietnam - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
> In addition:There would an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send Both sides agreed to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Laos and Cambodia and the prohibition of bases in and troop movements through these countries. It was agreed that the DMZ at the 17th
> Parallel would remain a provisional dividing line, with eventual reunification of the country "*through peaceful means.*" An international control commission would be established made up of Canadians, Hungarians, Poles, and Indonesians, with 1,160 inspectors to supervise the agreement. According to the agreement, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu would continue in office pending elections.  Agreeing to "the South Vietnamese People's right to self-determination,"the North Vietnamese said they would not initiate military movement across the DMZ and that there would be no use of force to reunify the country. Paris Peace Accords signed ? History.com This Day in History ? 1/27/1973
> 
> On January 13, 1975 ( In Violation of the Paris Peace Accords ), The North Vietnamese Army invaded and took control of South Vietnam.
> North Vietnam violated every aspect of the Paris Peace Accords. A 6th grader knows that Democracy does not exist in a Communist country.
> 
> Hey dimwit. It is you who does not know history. Try doing some research before you make a fool of yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> *From Wiki*:
> 
> "The colonial administration ended and French Indochina was dissolved under the Geneva Accords of 1954, which separated the forces of former French supporters and communist nationalists at the 17th parallel north with the Vietnamese Demilitarized Zone.
> 
> "A 300-day period of free movement was given, *during which almost a million northerners, mainly Catholic, moved south, fearing persecution by the communists*.
> 
> "The partition of Vietnam, with Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam in North Vietnam, and Emperor B&#7843;o &#272;&#7841;i's State of Vietnam in South Vietnam, was not intended to be permanent by the Geneva Accords, *and the Accords expressly forbade the interference of third powers*.
> 
> "However, in 1955, the State of Vietnam's Prime Minister, Ngo Dinh Diem, toppled B&#7843;o &#272;&#7841;i in a fraudulent referendum organised by his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu, and proclaimed himself president of the Republic of Vietnam.
> 
> "The Accords mandated nationwide elections by 1956, *which Diem refused to hold*, despite repeated calls from the North for talks to discuss elections."
> 
> Third graders know Uncle Ho would have won that election easier than G. Washington won his.
> 
> Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *You and others like you may learn something by reading the following books: A Vietcong Memoir: An Inside Account of the Vietnam War and Its Aftermath by Toung Nhu Tang
> Following Ho Chi Minh: The Memoirs of a North Vietnamese Colonel by Bui Tin, Do Van and Judy Stowe (Jan 1999) *   The Game is Over.
Click to expand...

Are either of the books you mentioned available online?

Maybe all of us would learn something by starting here:

*"The Vietnam War Crimes Working Group* (VWCWG) was a Pentagon task force set up in the wake of the My Lai Massacre and its media disclosure, to attempt to ascertain the veracity of emerging claims of war crimes by U.S. armed forces in Vietnam, during the Vietnam War period.

"The investigation compiled over 9,000 pages of investigative files, sworn statements by witnesses and status reports for top military officers, indicating that 320 alleged incidents had factual basis."

Absent an illegal US invasion and occupation of South Vietnam, the authors of the works you cited would not have had much worth writing about.

Vietnam War Crimes Working Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Vandalshandle

Vietnam had been at war continuously since 1942. they were not about to surrender to anybody. The South Vietnamese regime was among the most corrupt in the world, and their own people did not support it. LBJ and Nixon both tried to kill me, so that they could avoid being embarressed by their own poor judgment. The military industrial complex had taken control of the country, and was stopped only by the American people who stopped supporting them, which was a brave stance to take in those days. For this reason, I will fight against the draft reinstatement should it ever be considered again. Without cannon fodder, the madness can not proceed.


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## georgephillip

The madness was easier to stop in some ways when more US families had skin in the game:

"To: George W. Bush and Dick Cheney
"From: Tomas Young

"I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq War veterans. I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines who died in Iraq. I write this letter on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of veterans who have been wounded and on behalf of those whose wounds, physical and psychological, have destroyed their lives. I am one of those gravely wounded. I was paralyzed in an insurgent ambush in 2004 in Sadr City. My life is coming to an end. I am living under hospice care."

Truthdig - The Last Letter

We could stop war in less than a generation by serving up our richest 1% as the first installment of cannon fodder.


----------



## hunarcy

Truthmatters said:


> My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
> 
> I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
> 
> 
> He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
> 
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> 
> He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
> 
> 
> He refused.
> 
> 
> the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
> 
> 
> He refused to hold a gun.
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
> 
> 
> That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
> 
> 
> My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.
> 
> 
> Thankfully I only spent a few months wondering if my brother would end up coming home in a box.
> 
> 
> Many little sisters fears were realised in that horrible fucking mess that was the Veitnam war.



When did he get out of Leavenworth?


----------



## whitehall

Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.


----------



## georgephillip

From _Kill Anything That Moves_:

"Nguyen Van Phuoc, a young villager sheltering underground, heard the sound of the medevac helicopter landing and departing and, not long after, gunshots. His mother, fearing they would die if they remained in the bunker, grabbed him and his two-year-old brother and fled from their shelter into the chaos above.'Racing from our bunker, we saw the shelter opposite ours being shot up,' he recalled. One of the Americans then wheeled around and fired at his mother, killing her and leaving his brother covered in her blood."

The marines who killed a dozen civilians that October night in 1967 reported taking no enemy fire, no weapons were found in the village, and the marine's command chronology for that month states "no significant contact" was made during the operation.

None of the marines spent any time in Leavenworth.

Kill Anything That Moves, Metropolitan Books, Nick Turse, 2013 P.39


----------



## georgephillip

whitehall said:


> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.


How many more Vietnamese would have died before we "won"?
Those supporting the US occupation of Vietnam and those opposed to it agreed on very little during the hostilities, but one point I remember both side agreeing on was that it would be necessary to kill 80% to 90% of all Vietnamese in order to achieve our glorious victory.


----------



## editec

Rossuk said:


> Dear All
> 
> I am trying to find out if anyone clearly remembers the television footage from The Vietnam War as the event was unfolding? Did any TV footage stick in peoples minds or have photographs now taken over our memory of the war?
> 
> 
> All your comments are welcome
> 
> Thanks Ross



Yes I do, vividly.

And my first memory was when it was announced on TV that the 8th American military advisor was killed in Viet Nam.  I remember this well because I had to ask my mother where VN was.

_Siam,_ she responded and I thought I knew where that was because of of the Yul Brenner movie "The King and I"

That was 1960 and I was in 5th grade at the time.

And yes I then also served in the military during that conflict, starting ten years later.

Long assed war, that one was, eh?


----------



## t_polkow

whitehall said:


> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.



!!!!!!!

I was in Nam and came home and joined the anti war movement, the Media at that time was heavly influenced by the CIA

Media assets would eventually include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International (UPI), Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service, etc. and 400 journalists, who have secretly carried out assignments according to documents on file at CIA headquarters, from intelligence-gathering to serving as go-betweens. The CIA had infiltrated the nation's businesses, media, and universities with tens of thousands of on-call operatives by the 1950's. CIA Director Dulles had staffed the CIA almost exclusively with Ivy League graduates, especially from Yale with figures like George Herbert Walker Bush from the "Skull and Crossbones" Society. 

OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD


----------



## t_polkow

t_polkow said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !!!!!!!
> 
> I was in Nam and came home and joined the anti war movement, the Media at that time was heavly influenced by the CIA
> 
> Media assets would eventually include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International (UPI), Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service, etc. and 400 journalists, who have secretly carried out assignments according to documents on file at CIA headquarters, from intelligence-gathering to serving as go-betweens. The CIA had infiltrated the nation's businesses, media, and universities with tens of thousands of on-call operatives by the 1950's. CIA Director Dulles had staffed the CIA almost exclusively with Ivy League graduates, especially from Yale with figures like George Herbert Walker Bush from the "Skull and Crossbones" Society.
> 
> OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD
Click to expand...


CNN aired "Valley of Death" in June of 1998 and Time magazine (both owned by Time-Warner) ran a story about a secret mission called Operation Tailwind and the activities of SOG, Studies and Observations Group, a secret elite commando unit of the Army's Special Forces that used lethal nerve gas (sarin), on a mission to Laos designed to kill American defectors. Suddenly the network was awash in denials and the story was hushed up, as usual. Acknowledged use of this gas coming at a time when the U.S. government was trying to get Saddam to comply with weapons inspections, was an embarrassment to say the least. What hypocrisy! Having actually used the weapons on our own troops, then complaining and accusing Saddam of potential use of stored similar weapons, of which some were manufactured in and supplied by the U.S. The broadcast was prepared after exhaustive research and rooted in considerable supportive data. To decide for yourself what the truth is read Floyd Abrams' report on the CNN site at CNN - Report on CNN Broadcast - July 2, 1998.


----------



## t_polkow

t_polkow said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !!!!!!!
> 
> I was in Nam and came home and joined the anti war movement, the Media at that time was heavly influenced by the CIA
> 
> Media assets would eventually include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International (UPI), Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service, etc. and 400 journalists, who have secretly carried out assignments according to documents on file at CIA headquarters, from intelligence-gathering to serving as go-betweens. The CIA had infiltrated the nation's businesses, media, and universities with tens of thousands of on-call operatives by the 1950's. CIA Director Dulles had staffed the CIA almost exclusively with Ivy League graduates, especially from Yale with figures like George Herbert Walker Bush from the "Skull and Crossbones" Society.
> 
> OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD
Click to expand...


which document skepticism over the pretext for entry into the Vietnam war, date from 1968.
Four years into the war, senators were at loggerheads with Lyndon B. Johnson. At the time Foreign Relations Committee meetings were held behind closed doors.
It would take over thirty years for the truth to emerge that the Aug. 4, 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, where US warships were apparently attacked by North Vietnamese PT Boats &#8211; an incident that kicked off US involvement in the Vietnam war &#8211; was a staged event that never actually took place.
However, the records now show that at the time senators knew this was the case.
In a March 1968 closed session of the Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Albert Gore Sr. of Tennessee, the father of former vice president Al Gore, noted:
&#8220;If this country has been misled, if this committee, this Congress, has been misled by pretext into a war in which thousands of young men have died, and many more thousands have been crippled for life, and out of which their country has lost prestige, moral position in the world, the consequences are very great,&#8221;
Senator Frank Church, Democrat of Idaho, said in an executive session in February 1968:
&#8220;In a democracy you cannot expect the people, whose sons are being killed and who will be killed, to exercise their judgment if the truth is concealed from them.&#8221;


----------



## whitehall

georgephillip said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.
> 
> 
> 
> How many more Vietnamese would have died before we "won"?
> Those supporting the US occupation of Vietnam and those opposed to it agreed on very little during the hostilities, but one point I remember both side agreeing on was that it would be necessary to kill 80% to 90% of all Vietnamese in order to achieve our glorious victory.
Click to expand...



That's just it, we won even though the convoluted LBJ rules almost guaranteed that we would lose. How many Vietnamese died as a result of Cronkite's lies that caused the US to abandon the struggle just when it seemed we would win it?


----------



## georgephillip

whitehall said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.
> 
> 
> 
> How many more Vietnamese would have died before we "won"?
> Those supporting the US occupation of Vietnam and those opposed to it agreed on very little during the hostilities, but one point I remember both side agreeing on was that it would be necessary to kill 80% to 90% of all Vietnamese in order to achieve our glorious victory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's just it, we won even though the convoluted LBJ rules almost guaranteed that we would lose. How many Vietnamese died as a result of Cronkite's lies that caused the US to abandon the struggle just when it seemed we would win it?
Click to expand...

*What did we "win?"*

After the "War to End All Wars" Smedley Butler, a retired USMC general, wrote a warning about the clouds he saw gathering in Europe and the cost of our "victory" in WWI:

"The World War, rather our brief participation in it, has cost the United States some
$52,000,000,000. Figure it out. That means $400 to every American man, woman, and child.
And we haven&#8217;t paid the debt yet. 

"We are paying it, our children will pay it, and our
children&#8217;s children probably still will be paying the cost of that war."

The generation that fought and died in Vietnam paid off the debts to investment bankers generated by Butler's war. 

We are "winning" our childrens' slavery.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf


----------



## konradv

whitehall said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.
> 
> 
> 
> How many more Vietnamese would have died before we "won"?
> Those supporting the US occupation of Vietnam and those opposed to it agreed on very little during the hostilities, but one point I remember both side agreeing on was that it would be necessary to kill 80% to 90% of all Vietnamese in order to achieve our glorious victory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's just it, we won even though the convoluted LBJ rules almost guaranteed that we would lose. How many Vietnamese died as a result of Cronkite's lies that caused the US to abandon the struggle just when it seemed we would win it?
Click to expand...


It's revisionist history to say we were winning.  There would never be any winning as long as an invasion of the north wasn't in the plans and that was ruled out by Cold War considerations.  The N.Viet Namese and Viet Cong weren't about to go anywhere.


----------



## whitehall

georgephillip said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many more Vietnamese would have died before we "won"?
> Those supporting the US occupation of Vietnam and those opposed to it agreed on very little during the hostilities, but one point I remember both side agreeing on was that it would be necessary to kill 80% to 90% of all Vietnamese in order to achieve our glorious victory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just it, we won even though the convoluted LBJ rules almost guaranteed that we would lose. How many Vietnamese died as a result of Cronkite's lies that caused the US to abandon the struggle just when it seemed we would win it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *What did we "win?"*
> 
> After the "War to End All Wars" Smedley Butler, a retired USMC general, wrote a warning about the clouds he saw gathering in Europe and the cost of our "victory" in WWI:
> 
> "The World War, rather our brief participation in it, has cost the United States some
> $52,000,000,000. Figure it out. That means $400 to every American man, woman, and child.
> And we havent paid the debt yet.
> 
> "We are paying it, our children will pay it, and our
> childrens children probably still will be paying the cost of that war."
> 
> The generation that fought and died in Vietnam paid off the debts to investment bankers generated by Butler's war.
> 
> We are "winning" our childrens' slavery.
> 
> http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
Click to expand...



Butler was living proof that good generals don't necessarily make good political analysts. The funny thing is that the media ran away from Truman's war in Korea and called it the "forgotten war". They couldn't criticize it even though it was badly run because both Truman and MacArthur were icons. Because of the aging (possibly mentally defective) general's ego the war that should have ended in victory in less than a year dragged on for three years and ended in an embarrassing truce that was dictated by the NK. We are still living with that legacy. Bill Clinton's DOD decided that the number of American Troops who died during the conflict was too high (55,000) so they revised it down to around 35,000 to 38,000. Unlike every other conflict in history the defense dept decided to include only combat deaths and throw out accidents and other deaths.


----------



## georgephillip

whitehall said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's just it, we won even though the convoluted LBJ rules almost guaranteed that we would lose. How many Vietnamese died as a result of Cronkite's lies that caused the US to abandon the struggle just when it seemed we would win it?
> 
> 
> 
> *What did we "win?"*
> 
> After the "War to End All Wars" Smedley Butler, a retired USMC general, wrote a warning about the clouds he saw gathering in Europe and the cost of our "victory" in WWI:
> 
> "The World War, rather our brief participation in it, has cost the United States some
> $52,000,000,000. Figure it out. That means $400 to every American man, woman, and child.
> And we havent paid the debt yet.
> 
> "We are paying it, our children will pay it, and our
> childrens children probably still will be paying the cost of that war."
> 
> The generation that fought and died in Vietnam paid off the debts to investment bankers generated by Butler's war.
> 
> We are "winning" our childrens' slavery.
> 
> http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Butler was living proof that good generals don't necessarily make good political analysts. The funny thing is that the media ran away from Truman's war in Korea and called it the "forgotten war". They couldn't criticize it even though it was badly run because both Truman and MacArthur were icons. Because of the aging (possibly mentally defective) general's ego the war that should have ended in victory in less than a year dragged on for three years and ended in an embarrassing truce that was dictated by the NK. We are still living with that legacy. Bill Clinton's DOD decided that the number of American Troops who died during the conflict was too high (55,000) so they revised it down to around 35,000 to 38,000. Unlike every other conflict in history the defense dept decided to include only combat deaths and throw out accidents and other deaths.
Click to expand...

Here's something else that's been forgotten about our Korean War, if it ever entered our official History at all: (Correct answer is highlighted)

"In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People&#8217;s Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they

a. *ordered all Japanese officials to remain in their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and soon banned all public reference to the KPR*

b. recognized Lyuh as the legitimate head of state

c. negotiated with Lyuh to facilitate swift attainment of independence of a united Korea"

To this day, Lyuh is still revered as a political leader on both sides of the 38th parallel.
Had the Koreans and Vietnamese been allowed to determine their own fates at the polls after WWII, neither the Korean nor Vietnam wars would have been necessary.

A Pop Quiz on Korea » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


----------



## Trajan

t_polkow said:


> t_polkow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not the only news available to Americans during the Vietnam war was filtered through the liberal media. Before Fox and talk radio there was no news other than left leaning liberal news. Cronkite was king and he managed to spin the news in such a way that the victory of Tet which all but eliminated the NVA was considered to be part of a continuing stalemate and it caused the freaking coward in the White House to throw in the towel and give the VC a new lease on life. Democrats tried the same thing in Iraq calling the US commander "betray-us" and the democrat senate majority leader addressed Americans (and the Troops) and actually said "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !!!!!!!
> 
> I was in Nam and came home and joined the anti war movement, the Media at that time was heavly influenced by the CIA
> 
> Media assets would eventually include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International (UPI), Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service, etc. and 400 journalists, who have secretly carried out assignments according to documents on file at CIA headquarters, from intelligence-gathering to serving as go-betweens. The CIA had infiltrated the nation's businesses, media, and universities with tens of thousands of on-call operatives by the 1950's. CIA Director Dulles had staffed the CIA almost exclusively with Ivy League graduates, especially from Yale with figures like George Herbert Walker Bush from the "Skull and Crossbones" Society.
> 
> OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CNN aired "Valley of Death" in June of 1998 and Time magazine (both owned by Time-Warner) ran a story about a secret mission called Operation Tailwind and the activities of SOG, Studies and Observations Group, a secret elite commando unit of the Army's Special Forces that used lethal nerve gas (sarin), on a mission to Laos designed to kill American defectors. Suddenly the network was awash in denials and the story was hushed up, as usual. Acknowledged use of this gas coming at a time when the U.S. government was trying to get Saddam to comply with weapons inspections, was an embarrassment to say the least. What hypocrisy! Having actually used the weapons on our own troops, then complaining and accusing Saddam of potential use of stored similar weapons, of which some were manufactured in and supplied by the U.S. The broadcast was prepared after exhaustive research and rooted in considerable supportive data. To decide for yourself what the truth is read Floyd Abrams' report on the CNN site at CNN - Report on CNN Broadcast - July 2, 1998.
Click to expand...


Tailwind? Oh for god sakes


----------

