# Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?



## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).

But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).

On the official web-site of the Ukrainian President you can read that Ukraine was preparing a package of measures – *including military ones *– for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” (see here).

Please translate in Google Translator the following phrase


> Этот документ определяет комплекс мер дипломатического, военного, экономического, информационного, гуманитарного и иного характера, направленных на восстановление территориальной целостности, государственного суверенитета Украины в международно признанных границах путем деоккупации и реинтеграции Крыма.



Cannot we conclude that Ukrainian preparation of military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” could provoke the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine?


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## Dayton3 (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


don't be ridiculous


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


So what was it that prompted the Russian take over of Crimea, Dissident?  Because there was a population of ethnic Russians living there?  That was the same excuse that Hitler used to seize territory before WWII.  It would be like Mexico seizing Texas because it has a large population of ethnic Mexicans living there!

Be honest here, this has nothing to do with Ukrainian legislation...this is about Putin's dream of reconstituting the former Russian Empire.


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> don't be ridiculous



Have you translated the text from the official web-site of the Ukrainian President who is the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Ukrainian Army?

Are there words about military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” on this web-site or there aren’t such words?

Mr. Baiden constantly calls the Russian military operation an “unprovoked and unjustified attack” (for example, see here).

But is a military operation of a country A against a country B really unprovoked and unjustified when the country B prepares military measures to take from the country A a part which the country A considers to be its own?


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Have you translated the text from the official web-site of the Ukrainian President who is the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Ukrainian Army?
> 
> Are there words about military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” on this web-site or there aren’t such words?
> 
> ...


After country A invaded country B to TAKE that part?  With all due respect, Dissident...your premise makes little to no sense.  What right does Russian have to take any part of Ukraine?  It's a sovereign nation!  Then you turn around and view a plan by Ukraine to take back what Russia stole from it as an excuse for Russia to come in and take all of Ukraine?  That's absurd on its face!


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## para bellum (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Cannot we conclude that Ukrainian preparation of military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” could provoke the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine?


Um, no. We can't. Crimea is part of Ukraine. Internationally recognized borders and all that good stuff...

Also note, Zelensky is not the Commander in Chief of the AFU. That position is held by Valerii Zaluzhnyi. Zelensky makes the appointments, Zaluzhnyi gives the orders.


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> So what was it that prompted the Russian take over of Crimea, Dissident?



This thread isn’t about reasons why “Crimea has joined Russia” – it is the Russian wording for your “take-over”.

This question is not so simple as you have described “It would be like Mexico seizing Texas because it has a large population of ethnic Mexicans living there!”, “this has nothing to do with Ukrainian legislation” etc.

Citizens of Mexican origin aren’t the majority in Texas; there isn’t division of Texas citizens into first-grade, second-grade and third-grade citizens according to their ethnic origin like in Ukraine and so on.

This thread deals with the question: Is a military operation of a country A against a country B really unprovoked and unjustified when the country B prepares military measures to take from the country A a part which the country A considers to be its own?


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

para bellum said:


> Also note, Zelensky is not the Commander in Chief of the AFU. That position is held by Valerii Zaluzhnyi. Zelensky makes the appointments, Zaluzhnyi gives the orders.


Please read in English Wikipedia which functions the Ukrainian President has – the article is called “President of Ukraine”, read the sixth line under the picture of the present President.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> This thread isn’t about reasons why “Crimea has joined Russia” – it is the Russian wording for your “take-over”.
> 
> This question is not so simple as you have described “It would be like Mexico seizing Texas because it has a large population of ethnic Mexicans living there!”, “this has nothing to do with Ukrainian legislation” etc.
> 
> ...


So a "plan" to take back part of Ukraine that was taken by force by Russia...is your justification for Russan to take MORE of Ukraine?  I'm totally failing to see any justification for that!  Russia is simply stealing from a weaker neighbor.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

As for my analogy with Mexico and Texas?  The thing you have to understand about Crimea is that at the time of the Russian Empire Russians were a distinct minority in Crimea.  The majority were actually Muslim Tatars.  When the Soviet Union took control of Crimea after WWII they essentially wiped out the Tatars and replaced them with Russians.  So do the Russians REALLY have a claim to Crimea because of a genocide that eliminated a majority?  Should they be allowed to create genocide again in Ukraine?


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> After country A invaded country B to TAKE that part?  With all due respect, Dissident...your premise makes little to no sense.  What right does Russian have to take any part of Ukraine?  It's a sovereign nation!  Then you turn around and view a plan by Ukraine to take back what Russia stole from it as an excuse for Russia to come in and take all of Ukraine?  That's absurd on its face!



In your wording - Russia invaded Ukraine to take Crimea; after that Ukraine did have a plan to take back Crimea *by military force*; but Russia was the first to start its military operation.

Even your variant differs very much from the standard Western thesis about peaceful Ukraine.

P. S.
And Western countries did support Ukrainian plans to turn the majority of Crimean population into people of third-grade.
This remark is about the standard Western thesis about democratic Ukraine.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> In your wording - Russia invaded Ukraine to take Crimea; after that Ukraine did have a plan to take back Crimea *by military force*; but Russia was the first to start its military operation.
> 
> Even your variant differs very much from the standard Western thesis about peaceful Ukraine.
> 
> ...


Again...what right does Russia have to invade a sovereign nation and take part of it's territory?


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> In your wording - Russia invaded Ukraine to take Crimea; after that Ukraine did have a plan to take back Crimea *by military force*; but Russia was the first to start its military operation.
> 
> Even your variant differs very much from the standard Western thesis about peaceful Ukraine.
> 
> ...


You're accusing Ukraine of not being "peaceful" simply for defending itself against a more powerful neighbor who attacked it not once...but twice!


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> ,,, at the time of the Russian Empire Russians were a distinct minority in Crimea.


It’s a difficult question which nation and when had the majority in Crimea.

In English Wikipedia, in the article “Demographics of Crimea” you can read that *for almost 100 last years* (since 1926 census) ethnic Russians are the largest ethnic group in Crimea and for more than 60 years (since 1959 census) they are majority there.

Therefore, the Ukrainian attempt to turn them into third-grade people is utterly ridiculous.


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## para bellum (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Please read in English Wikipedia which functions the Ukrainian President has – the article is called “President of Ukraine”, read the sixth line under the picture of the present President.


It is an administrative role. Not reflected in the 2010 Constitution: Zelensky created the position of Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces in 2020.

From Wiki:

The position of the C-in-C AFU has been established by the Law "On the Transformation of the Joint Command and Control System of the Defence Forces" ("Про трансформацію системи об'єднаного керівництва силами оборони")[10] as the supreme professional authority on matters of national defence and security, therefore the incumbent holder has direct control over the Chief of the General Staff, Commander of the Joint Forces, commanders of the various armed services, separate arms and branches and separate military units, as well as shared authority with the Minister of Interior Affairs and the chiefs of the various national security services on matters of strategic planning, generation of forces and principles for their actions in case of a state of a martial law, as well as operational control during wartime. 

The role of the President under the Constitution:

Appoints high officials. Forwards to the Rada the recommendations of the Council of Nat'l Security. Can declare Martial Law.

is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine; appoints to office and dismisses from office the high command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other military formations; administers in the spheres of national security and defense of the State;
heads the Council of National Security and Defense of Ukraine;
forwards the submission to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on the declaration of a state of war, and adopts the decision on the use of the Armed Forces in the event of armed aggression against Ukraine;
adopts a decision in accordance with the law on the general or partial mobilisation and the introduction of martial law in Ukraine or in its particular areas, in the event of a threat of aggression, danger to the state independence of Ukraine;


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## xyz (Oct 14, 2022)

By the way, shit name. Dissidents are put in jail in Russia these days.


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## SavannahMann (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Have you translated the text from the official web-site of the Ukrainian President who is the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Ukrainian Army?
> 
> Are there words about military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” on this web-site or there aren’t such words?
> 
> ...



So Russia would be justified in attacking Alaska? 









						Recapturing Alaska! Russia Threatens To Seize Its 'Lost Territory' If US Continued To Grab Its Resources
					

On July 7, Vyacheslav Volodin, the speaker of the Russian parliament’s lower house, warned that if the US continued to seize Russian resources abroad, Moscow could reclaim Alaska, formerly a part of the Russian territory. Outpacing US At ‘Hypersonic Speed’, China’s Military Acquisition ‘5 Times...




					eurasiantimes.com


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

I am very glad that nobody here denies 2 points which, in my opinion, are the most important ones.

There really were Ukrainian plans to use *military force *for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea”.


If these plans have succeeded, the majority of Crimean population would be turned into third-grade people.
These 2 points together, in my opinion, could justify the Russian military operation in Ukraine.

All other remarks of yours – e.g. about Crimean population in the 19th century or about functions of Ukrainian President – are, in my opinion, not so important.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> It’s a difficult question which nation and when had the majority in Crimea.
> 
> In English Wikipedia, in the article “Demographics of Crimea” you can read that *for almost 100 last years* (since 1926 census) ethnic Russians are the largest ethnic group in Crimea and for more than 60 years (since 1959 census) they are majority there.
> 
> Therefore, the Ukrainian attempt to turn them into third-grade people is utterly ridiculous.


Once again, Dissident...prior to WWII the Muslim Tatars were the majority in Crimea but following WWII Stalin conducted a program of genocide against them...basically wiping them out as you can see from census reports after 1950.  So if Russia's claim to Crimea is based on a "majority" of ethnic Russians there...then that's a claim that's staked on the dead bodies of those Tatars!  When you wipe out the people who WERE the majority in an area and fill it with your own people it's hard to claim the moral high ground as you excuse your land grab!


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## Oldestyle (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> It’s a difficult question which nation and when had the majority in Crimea.
> 
> In English Wikipedia, in the article “Demographics of Crimea” you can read that *for almost 100 last years* (since 1926 census) ethnic Russians are the largest ethnic group in Crimea and for more than 60 years (since 1959 census) they are majority there.
> 
> Therefore, the Ukrainian attempt to turn them into third-grade people is utterly ridiculous.


Ah yes...so can you explain why it was OK for Stalin to starve millions of Ukrainians to death so that he could feed ethnic Russians?  This is just one more example of Russia treating Ukraine as if its people don't matter.


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## SavannahMann (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I am very glad that nobody here denies 2 points which, in my opinion, are the most important ones.
> 
> There really were Ukrainian plans to use *military force *for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea”.
> 
> ...



Was Crimea Ukrainian before it was seized and annexed in 2014?


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> ..prior to WWII the Muslim Tatars were the majority in Crimea but following WWII Stalin conducted a program of genocide against them...


In my Collins dictionary I read "the majority of people or things in a group *is more than half of them*" (i.e. more than 50%).
And in article “Demographics of Crimea” in Wikipedia you can read that already at the end of 19th century Tatars amounted to only 35.55% of Crimean population.


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

I understand your point of view and believe that it is too simplified.

Your point of view is “inclusion of Crimea into Russia was illegal and bad and it does not matter that ethnic Russians are majority in Crimea. POINT!”

But I consider this question in a wider context.

If you take into account that in modern Ukraine ethnic Russians are discriminated, i.e. they are third-grade citizens – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians - can you unambiguously say that inclusion of Crimea into Russia was bad?

I personally cannot say it.

And I cannot say that Ukrainian authorities really have full rights to use military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” in such a case.

And I hope that you understand my point of view too.


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## SavannahMann (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I understand your point of view and believe that it is too simplified.
> 
> Your point of view is “inclusion of Crimea into Russia was illegal and bad and it does not matter that ethnic Russians are majority in Crimea. POINT!”
> 
> ...



If the “Russian” ethnic groups don’t like living in Ukraine. The answer is obvious. It is far easier and cheaper to sell your land or homes. And move to Russia. Taking the territory is far more expensive and destructive. 

Arguing that the bad guys are the ones defending their national sovereignty is ludicrous. 

I do understand your point of view. It has been explained many times by Russian Trolls and Puppets. People who would have been called Zampolit a little over a generation ago. 









						Political commissar - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




People who spread propaganda and made sure the people heard only the most positive aspects of the glorious life provided by the Soviet Union.


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## xyz (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> If you take into account that in modern Ukraine ethnic Russians are discriminated, i.e. they are third-grade citizens – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians -


That's just not true, plus the Russian army bombed the hell out of the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine.

They would rather be part of the EU than a corrupt  Russian failing state on the verge of collapse.


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> I do understand your point of view. It has been explained many times by Russian Trolls and Puppets. People who would have been called Zampolit a little over a generation ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is very good to see that even the user with the Ukrainian flag on his avatar does not deny that ethnic Russians are discriminated in his country, i.e. they are third-grade citizens there – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians.


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

xyz said:


> That (discrimination of ethnic Russians in Ukraine) is just not true...


Please read the thread Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?
We discussed this question in April.
​


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## SavannahMann (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> It is very good to see that even the user with the Ukrainian flag on his avatar does not deny that ethnic Russians are discriminated in his country, i.e. they are third-grade citizens there – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians.



People in California who feel targeted or otherwise restricted leave the state. Conservatives who own guns, or small businesses. They leave to seek their futures elsewhere.

People who are in Texas and object to the restrictions put upon their freedoms leave for greener pastures.

And it isn’t merely going to other states. Some leave their nations and become expats around the world. Asia and South or Central America are popular.

There are whole towns made up of these Ex Pats through the world. European citizens included.

Yet these “Russian” ethic people didn’t even consider this. Russia is more than large enough to absorb them. Russia wants to absorb them in fact. This is evidenced by the hostages taken my the glorious Russian Army. Children to be raised as Russians. Even though they aren’t the right ethnic group.









						Ukraine accuses Moscow of "kidnapping" children amid ongoing war
					

Ukraine's government accuses Moscow of "kidnapping" children amid its ongoing invasion so they can be "illegally adopted by Russian citizens."




					www.cbsnews.com
				




All over the world. People relocate themselves from areas where they feel persecuted. Why didn’t these Ethnic Russians?

And the idiotic argument that this was the cause for this war is laughable. Russia tried to conquer all of Ukraine. When that failed it then became an effort to annex parts they “controlled” by arms. At least while they still controlled it. 

The Ethnic Russians were not being persecuted. They lost political power to the majority who wanted closer ties to the West. The minority wanted dominance over the majority. 

Russian action was based upon lies. Proceeded by more lies. And even now the lies continue in a stupid effort to erode support for Ukraine which is growing world wide. 

The Russian Economy won’t recover for at least a generation. It will take that long to return to what it was before all this started. And that is if Russia does the smart thing right now. If they walk Putin outside and put a bullet in his head and announce they are withdrawing from Ukraine and asking for a return to status quo ante. 

Otherwise. This can end only one of two ways. Russia broken up into smaller nations. Or nuclear fire. I’m ok with either choice. Because death as a free man is better than life as a slave to Russian aggression. 

And Zampolit. You know this is true. It is why you are still here spreading discredited propaganda continuing the effort to erode support for the nation Russia expected to conquer in a couple weeks.


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## xyz (Oct 14, 2022)

That's what Hitler said when he annexed Sudetenland.


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Some leave their nations and become expats around the world. Asia and South or Central America are popular.
> ...
> Yet these “Russian” ethic people didn’t even consider this.


When some people feel themselves discriminated in their countries, they really leave for abroad.
But in other cases, people stay and separate themselves from the country whose authorities discriminate them – e.g. East Timor or South Sudan.
There is no general rule for all who feel themselves discriminated in their countries.


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## xyz (Oct 14, 2022)




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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

*SavannahMann*
In my opinion, you are not very bad.

You don’t try to deny obvious things, e.g. that there is a hatred towards citizens of Russian origin in Ukraine, that there is discrimination of such citizens in Ukraine and so on. Users with the Ukrainian flag on their avatars usually deny even these obvious things.

But I believe that it has little sense to discuss the question “Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?” only between you and me.

I believe that later we could discuss the origins of this hatred and discrimination, but in a separate thread.


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## xyz (Oct 14, 2022)

What about the hatred of the Russian people by the Russian government?


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## SavannahMann (Oct 14, 2022)

Dissident said:


> *SavannahMann*
> In my opinion, you are not very bad.
> 
> You don’t try to deny obvious things, e.g. that there is a hatred towards citizens of Russian origin in Ukraine, that there is discrimination of such citizens in Ukraine and so on. Users with the Ukrainian flag on their avatars usually deny even these obvious things.
> ...



To understand how we got to this place in time. It is important to deal in truth. Biden told the world that Russia was preparing to invade Ukraine. Russia denied this. They claimed that Biden was just trying to deflect attention from domestic issues. A second warning and calls on American Citizens to leave Russia immediately. 

Again Russia denied this. And right up until the troops attacked continued to deny that there were any hostile intentions. 

World leaders warned that Russia was preparing a trick to use as justification for the attack. This false flag operation was imminent. Russia continued to deny it all. 

After the troops crossed the border Russia announced they had launched this special military operation because of hostilities by the Ukrainian Government. The world called bullshit. The story changed several times over the next few days. 

These are historical facts. Russia lied about going in. Russia lied about why they were going in. Russia continues to lie today. 

The lies continue.


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## alexa (Oct 14, 2022)

I am remembering that I have read more than once that it was on discovering that Ukraine had determined it was going to take back Crimea that Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  I thought it was because the right wing of Ukraine feel that to put up with any kind of acceptance of Russia military take over in Ukraine shows them to be cowards.  However for Russia any time I have seen a reason for them taking Crimea it has been because in that area they are land locked and I think it was British ships, possibly war ships, possibly both British and American were taking to hanging around there - no doubt due to their friendship with Ukraine.

In reality if that was the reason although not right or legal it was understandable as Russia was already deeply concerned about NATO moving in all around them and given that they had no naval base there while the British Navy was coming and going, they could have a genuine reason to feel threatened.


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## Dissident (Oct 14, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> The lies continue.



Everybody lies.
Barak Obama lied that "there was no spying on Americans" - Reactions to global surveillance disclosures - Wikipedia


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## SavannahMann (Oct 14, 2022)

alexa said:


> I am remembering that I have read more than once that it was on discovering that Ukraine had determined it was going to take back Crimea that Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  I thought it was because the right wing of Ukraine feel that to put up with any kind of acceptance of Russia military take over in Ukraine shows them to be cowards.  However for Russia any time I have seen a reason for them taking Crimea it has been because in that area they are land locked and I think it was British ships, possibly war ships, possibly both British and American were taking to hanging around there - no doubt due to their friendship with Ukraine.
> 
> In reality if that was the reason although not right or legal it was understandable as Russia was already deeply concerned about NATO moving in all around them and given that they had no naval base there while the British Navy was coming and going, they could have a genuine reason to feel threatened.



The largest naval base the Russians have on the Black Sea is in Crimea. However. That base is now worthless. Besides the supply lines being cut. There is the problem of Russian Ships being hit by cruise missiles. The flagship was sunk easily. 

The base is too close to the enemy and is untenable. 

Russia has access to the Black Sea. The problem isn’t with the Black Sea with or without Crimea. The problem is access to the Mediterranean Sea. That requires passing through Turkey which has been reluctant to allow Russian ships to pass. 

That’s why ships from the Northern Fleet sail all the way around Europe to get to their base in Syria. 

As I said. The problem isn’t the sea. It’s land. 

With Ukraine aligning themselves closer to the West and especially the EU, Moldavia, a Russian Ally, would be isolated. Additionally Belarus would be nearly completely surrounded. 

This would make supporting those two nations difficult in the extreme. Especially Moldavia which has no access to the sea. So any support would have to pass through nominally opposition nations which could hold up military type supply trains. 

So taking Ukraine and creating a solid wall of strength was the obvious choice. 

The problem is that Russian strength was based upon fear. The smaller nations feared Russia. 

Now with the failed invasion that fear is lessened. It is obvious when Russian spokesmen remind the world twice or three times a week that Nuclear War will result. 

The image to think of is a Father figure standing over the children. Keeping them in line. 

Even now Russian satellite nations are fighting among themselves while Russia is mired in the Ukraine. Moscow is taking no notice because they have nothing left to back up the demands that the children stop. 

The Russian Army is nearly shattered. The Navy has all but abandoned the base on the Crimean Peninsula. The Air Force has suffered a bloody nose they can’t afford. 

Here again we see the truth. Russia was not nearly as strong or as prepared as they needed to be. Prewar plans counted on capitulation by first Ukraine and then Europe. Now it is Russia praying they can hold out until General Winter steps in to help. But this isn’t the German Army of 1941 or the Napoleon invasion. Ukrainian soldiers are accustomed to the weather too. 

And the Ukrainian army is winning. 

Threats and intimidation didn’t work to drive Ukraine back into the fold. So Daddy Moscow decided to spank the bad children. Only that backfired badly. Daddy is getting his ass whipped.


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## SavannahMann (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Everybody lies.
> Barak Obama lied that "there was no spying on Americans" - Reactions to global surveillance disclosures - Wikipedia



My own war. Gulf War One. Or Desert Shield/Storm if you prefer. 

The United States spent weeks, hell Months building the public case for war. They spent that time explaining. It over and over again. 

Britain spent the time needed to cross the ocean to reclaim the Falkland Islands making the case for why they were going to war. 

Now obviously history tells us that this didn’t happen every time. But History also views such times dimly. Arguments that hostilities were gunned up or could have been avoided. 

One thing that History views most darkly is deception of intent prior to the war. 

This is referred to as a Pearl Harbor attack these days. A no warning attack on unsuspecting targets. 

Now in this case the image remains of a bigger individual attacking a smaller one. And worse. The bigger one lied about attacking the smaller one until after the attack. 

The bigger one will be seen as a bully. A thug. A person without integrity or honor. And that perception was tolerable as long as the thug was victorious. Then time would moderate the world hostility. The phrase would be crying over spilt milk. 

But the bully didn’t win. And it is left to the Zampolit like yourself to try and moderate the world view.


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## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

I understand point of view of my opponents.

Their picture of situation is based on 2 components which are constantly repeated by Western media (please see below).

*Item 1*​Western media many times have been telling to my opponents that Russia “has illegitimately annexed the Crimean Peninsula”.​​*Item 2*​Western media many times have been telling to my opponents that it does not matter that ethnic Russians are majority in Crimea.​
On the basis of these two points, my opponents conclude that the plans of present Ukrainian government to take back Crimea by military force are fair.

But I ask my opponents to add to their picture of situation a third element which Western media *NEVER *told to my opponents (please see below).
​*Item 3*​Under present Ukrainian legislation ethnic Russians are discriminated in Ukraine, i.e. they are third-grade citizens there – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians.​
On the basis of this wider look on the situation – Can my opponents say that the plans of present Ukrainian government to take back Crimea by military force *AND *to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people are fair?

In my opinion, such plans are not fair. Therefore, Russian military operation for preventing Ukrainian military measures could be justified.

And my goal is that my opponents would include the above-mentioned third element into their picture of situation.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I understand point of view of my opponents.
> 
> Their picture of situation is based on 2 components which are constantly repeated by Western media (please see below).
> 
> ...



Did they cut off your Borscht ration at the St. Petersburg Troll Farm? 

Russia's annexation of the Crimea WAS illegitimate.  It really doesn't matter that the majority of people in the Donbass or Crimea are Ethnically Russian, those borders are the ones that Russia agreed to both when the USSR existed (and Russia used Ukraine and Belarus to have two extra seats in the UN) and after the dissolution of the USSR. 

The Ukraine COULD have retained the nukes it had after the USSR broke up. Instead it entered an agreement with the West and the Russian Federation in 1994 to give up its nukes in exchange for guarantees of their borders. 

If Putin's goal was to just secure Crimea and the Donbass, that should have been his initial strategy.  Instead, he intended to take the whole of Ukraine and install a puppet government that would agree to whatever he wanted.  He didn't count on the Ukrainians fighting back.

The biggest problem he has is that this war is very unpopular in Russia itself.   They don't see a reason for it.  Throwing in conscripts with little training or equipment is going to just make things worse.

Now, when Russia inevitably capitulates and has to return those territories, will it suck to be an ethnic Russia in Crimea or Donbass? You betcha.  A good example would be what happened to Ethnic Serbs in Croatia and Kosovo in the 1990's... they had to relocate to Serbia proper. 

The good news is Russia has plenty of land to resettle those people.


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## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> The Russian Army is nearly shattered.
> ...
> And the Ukrainian army is winning.



It has no sense to explain us in this thread who is winning or who is not.

We all have access to state news agency of Ukraine (the first link below), we all have access to state news agency of Russia (the second link below), we all have access to state news agency of U.S. (the third link below) and so on.

If one wants to know somebody’s variant of news, he/she can do it at any moment.

But this thread is not about discussing somebody’s variants of news.









						Ukrinform - Ukrainian National News Agency
					

Ukraine and world news. Ukrinform brings the latest news, daily news, political news, business news, social news, cultural news, sports news, international news тАУ 24/7 live in Ukrainian, Russian, English, German and Spanish.




					www.ukrinform.net
				











						RT - Breaking news, shows, podcasts
					

RT is the first Russian 24/7 English-language news channel which brings the Russian view on global news.




					www.rt.com
				











						VOA - Voice of America English News
					

English news from the Voice of America. VOA provides complete coverage of the U.S, Asia, Africa and the Mideast.




					www.voanews.com


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I understand point of view of my opponents.
> 
> Their picture of situation is based on 2 components which are constantly repeated by Western media (please see below).
> 
> ...


You continue to try a make the case that Russia was justified in invading and seizing Crimea from Ukraine because ethnic Russians were being "mistreated" there and to be quite blunt with you...that was always a flimsy excuse used by Putin to simply steal land that he wanted for Russia!  It's exactly the excuse that Hitler used when he started "annexing" territories prior to the start of WWII!  
Then you have to look at what Putin has done in Ukraine since the start of his invasion there!  Deliberately targeting a civilian population with missile strikes and artillery strikes?  Hitting schools...hospitals...apartment buildings?  Now targeting electrical centers as winter is about to begin leaving the civilian population in danger of freezing to death?  All of these things are war crimes yet you come here and try to make the case that Putin is somehow justified to do what he's done because Russian wasn't being taught in Ukranian schools?  That's a crock.  You defend the indefensible!


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> It *has no sense* to explain us in this thread who is winning or who is not.
> 
> We all have access to state news agency of Ukraine (the first link below), we all have access to state news agency of Russia (the second link below), we all have access to state news agency of U.S. (the third link below) and so on.
> 
> ...



It makes no sense... clearly your translation matrix isn't working, Ivan. 

No, this thread is screaming, "The poor ethnic Russians" after Russia is getting its ass whooped in a war they started.  

I have a simple enough solution. 

Russia's square mileage is 6 million square miles..  

That's more than enough space to accommodate any ethnic Russians in the Ukraine who really, really don't want to be part of the Ukraine.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Russia's annexation of the Crimea WAS illegitimate.  It really doesn't matter that the majority of people in the Donbass or Crimea are Ethnically Russian...



Has it any sense to repeat again and again item 1 and item 2 from my previous post? 

I have cited these items in that post and written that these items have been constantly repeated by Western media.

We all know these items.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Deliberately targeting a civilian population with missile strikes and artillery strikes?  Hitting schools...hospitals...apartment buildings?  Now targeting electrical centers as winter is about to begin leaving the civilian population in danger of freezing to death?  All of these things are war crimes...


I repeat once again - this thread is not for discussing somebody’s variants of news.

This thread is about things, which, in my opinion, are more important – about Ukrainian laws (see the first sentence in the first post of the thread) and about Ukrainian plans to use military force to get back Crimea (see the third sentence in the first post of the thread).

In my opinion, the laws which are published on the official web-site of the parliament or plans which are published on the official web-site of the President are more worth discussing than somebody’s variants of news.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

Let’s formulate the exact difference between my opinion and opinion of (pro)-Ukrainian users, e.g. JoeB131, Oldestyle and SavannahMann.

In their opinion, *it’s fair and correct* when a country wants to get back a region by military force and to turn the majority of population of this region into third-grade people.

In my opinion, *it isn’t fair and correct*.

And I am very glad that there are only very few users on this forum who believes that it’s fair and correct.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Let’s formulate the exact difference between my opinion and opinion of (pro)-Ukrainian users, e.g. JoeB131, Oldestyle and SavannahMann.
> 
> In their opinion, *it’s fair and correct* when a country wants to get back a region by military force and to turn the majority of population of this region into third-grade people.
> 
> ...



Actually, what I am seeing is posters on both the right and left really have no sympathy for Russians in the Ukraine.  

The reality is, when you collaborate with a foreign invader, you are going to be in serious trouble....


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I repeat once again - this thread is not for discussing somebody’s variants of news.
> 
> This thread is about things, which, in my opinion, are more important – about Ukrainian laws (see the first sentence in the first post of the thread) and about Ukrainian plans to use military force to get back Crimea (see the third sentence in the first post of the thread).
> 
> In my opinion, the laws which are published on the official web-site of the parliament or plans which are published on the official web-site of the President are more worth discussing than somebody’s variants of news.


You keep ignoring the fact that Russia illegally invaded a sovereign nation...seizing a valuable piece of land, Dissident!  Of course Ukraine wanted Crimea back!  It's part of Ukraine!  Again...what right does Russia have to simply take what it wants from weaker neighbors?  Putin took Crimea.  Then he was back trying to steal the Donbas area and if he could the entire nation of Ukraine.  The only reason he hasn't done so is that the Russian army turned out to not be as fearsome as advertised.  Putin thought he could wrap up his invasion in a matter of weeks and that Europe would simply accept it as a done deal because they needed his natural gas so badly.  Then Ukraine surprised everyone by not caving.  They fought back and they fought back hard.  Now the Russian army is in retreat and Putin has egg on his face.


----------



## there4eyeM (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


No.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 15, 2022)

And if you look at historical precedent, it won't go well for the Russians in those enclaves. 

After WWII, Ethnic Germans were purged from the Sudetenland, Silesia and East  Prussia.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

there4eyeM said:


> No.


Yes


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> You keep ignoring the fact that Russia illegally invaded a sovereign nation...seizing a valuable piece of land, Dissident!  Of course Ukraine wanted Crimea back!  It's part of Ukraine!  Again...what right does Russia have to simply take what it wants from weaker neighbors?  Putin took Crimea.


The situation in this thread becomes more and more stupid -
(pro)-Ukrainian users again and again inform me about the Western media thesis about which I have already written myself in my post (see item 1).


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I understand point of view of my opponents.
> 
> Their picture of situation is based on 2 components which are constantly repeated by Western media (please see below).
> 
> ...



This is the 21st. Century. Every road rage incident had a dozen cameras recording it. Robberies have camera recordings. Most murders do now days. 

You keep arguing that the invasion was justified by the treatment of the ethnic Russians. But you don’t have any evidence of mistreatment. Oh you have more lies from the Russians. But nothing else. 

I have proof of mistreatment of ethnic Russians. 


I have a lot more proof. 









						Updated list of oligarchs and Putin critics found dead since war began
					

A growing number of high-profile Russians have died under strange circumstances ever since President Vladimir Putin came to power.




					www.euronews.com
				




Want more proof of Ethnic Russians being mistreated? 









						More than 15,000 Russians have been arrested in anti-war protests
					

Despite Vladimir Putin’s crackdown, people continue to take to the streets




					www.economist.com
				




I could post more. But you would lie and deflect. So I’ll stop offering proof. 

Finally I offer this song for you and the rest of the Russians. 


Any questions.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> ... you don’t have any evidence of mistreatment (of ethnic Russians in Ukraine).


There is a link in the first sentence of the first post of this thread.
We have already discussed discrimination of ethnic Russians in Ukraine in the thread under that link.


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> There is a link in the first sentence of the first post of this thread.
> We have already discussed discrimination of ethnic Russians in Ukraine in the thread under that link.



A link to a Russian propaganda site. 









						Ukraine's Russian speakers worry about being 'saved' by Putin
					

Kyiv driving instructor Andriy Atamanyuk does not want to be saved by Vladimir Putin despite the Kremlin chief's pledge to fight "discrimination" against Russian speakers in Ukraine.




					amp.france24.com
				





It wasn’t happening. It just wasn’t. You continue to spread propaganda Zampolit. 

Tovarich you need to learn that the truth is already known.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Cannot we conclude that Ukrainian preparation of military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” could provoke the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine?


In the days immediately preceding the Russian advance into Ukraine, there was an increase in shelling coming from Zelensky's forces. It seems likely he was told to provoke a Russian response and when that came US sanctions would cripple the Russian economy withing weeks. Now it's beginning to look like NATO will fragment long before Russia does.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> You continue to spread propaganda...
> 
> ...you need to learn that the truth is already known.


I continue to speak about Ukrainian laws which everyone can read on *the official website of the Ukrainian parliament*, e.g. here.
These Ukrainian laws are the best form of anti-Ukrainian propaganda.


----------



## para bellum (Oct 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> In the days immediately preceding the Russian advance into Ukraine, there was an increase in shelling coming from Zelensky's forces. It seems likely he was told to provoke a Russian response and when that came US sanctions would cripple the Russian economy withing weeks. Now it's beginning to look like NATO will fragment long before Russia does.


False flags, typical of Putin. The west had been warning for several days in advance that it was coming. Blinken warned the UNSC the preceding Wednesday. The DPR mobilized 5 days before the invasion, and they put out a video calling for evacuations that was made 2 days before the supposed shelling happened. There was also a mysterious car bombing in Donetsk or Luhansk (I forget which), and claims of Ukrainian shelling in a Russian village (Mityakinskaya) in the Rostov area.

Harris gave an address at the Munich Security Conference that week. "There is a playbook of Russian aggression, and this playbook is too familiar to us all. Russia will plead ignorance and innocence. It will create false pretext for invasion, and it will amass troops and firepower in plain sight,"

Lavrov called the warnings "hysteria" and "alarmism". Of course a few days later, Russian invaded just as predicted...


----------



## Dissident (Oct 15, 2022)

*georgephillip*

The answer of _para bellum_ to your post is a quite standard one because it is impossible to prove who was shelling whom.

Even in the cases when there are international monitoring missions, a side A always accuses this mission of being bribed by a side B. And the side B, vice versa, always accuses this mission of being bribed by the side A.

Therefore, I personally prefer to speak about laws etc. rather than about “who was shelling whom".


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 15, 2022)

> Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?​



No. And it is also now not a threat for Russia - but life became more dangerous for all Russians soldiers who are illegally on the territory of the Ukraine - including the territories Russia had annexed illegally.

On the others side has the Ukraine now - because Russia declared war on her - the right to attack many institutions all over Russia - specially all military institutions including Putins government and machinery of power. So if the Ukraine should have to become a threat for Russia on reason of self-defense then this is caused so from Valdimir Putin and his criminal gang members who violate the Russian soul.


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I continue to speak about Ukrainian laws which everyone can read on *the official website of the Ukrainian parliament*, e.g. here.
> These Ukrainian laws are the best form of anti-Ukrainian propaganda.



The truth is that Russia was not Justified in their attack. The truth is that Russia expected and planned on a short war and a cheap victory. The truth is that Russia is floundering. The Truth is that their economy will not recover for decades. 

The only place where Ethnic Russians were being targeted is where they were fighting the elected government of Ukraine. Any nation. Including Russia. Any nation would fight to reclaim what was theirs. 

Russia is demonstrating only that they are weak and incompetent. 



			Russia’s airstrikes, intended to show force, reveal another weakness
		


If Russia was justified they would have made the case to the world before the war. They would have had plenty of evidence if only half their claims were sort of true. 

This isn’t about Ethnic Russians. Putin and his cronies are getting those killed by the hundreds every day. This is about power. And the kitten the Russians thought they were facing us instead a lion.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 15, 2022)

Dissident said:


> It’s a difficult question which nation and when had the majority in Crimea.
> 
> In English Wikipedia, in the article “Demographics of Crimea” you can read that *for almost 100 last years* (since 1926 census) ethnic Russians are the largest ethnic group in Crimea and for more than 60 years (since 1959 census) they are majority there.
> 
> Therefore, the Ukrainian attempt to turn them into third-grade people is utterly ridiculous.



About the problem to make the Krim to the territory of the Ukraine although the home harbor of the Black Sea fleet of Russia was there  - which the Soviet Khrushchev had produced - many diplomats had been ready to mediate diplomatically. This had not been a difficult problem which money was not able to solve. But Russia created with the waste of the Ukraine now many problems which money is not easily able to solve any longer. And it is totally clear now: The Krim is territory of the Ukraine and all Russian soldiers will have to leave the Krim - and all other annexed territories of the Ukraine.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 15, 2022)

xyz said:


> That's what Hitler said when he annexed Sudetenland.



"Sudetenland" was Bohemia - one of the most important German countries since long centuries. Germans lived a long time in the area of Prague before the first Slaws arrived there and for centuries lived Czechs and Germans together in Bohemia and all people there had been able to speak in their own language with government and judges - as long as Germans had ruled. The allies of World War 1+2 took care that Bohemia is dead now - what had been a very heavy war crime. So what for heavens sake do you try to compare? Your own idiocies and war propaganda when you had been an ally of the Russian Czar and an ally of the Russian Soviets?



Remark: The "Holy Roman Empire" and the "Flickerlteppich" (patchwork-states) in the left-middle of this video is "Germany". You can see in this video very clear that Germany was continuously attacked in the last 1000 years and became smaller and smaller because of the aggressions from East and West. The kingdom "Bohemia" always had been a part of Germany (or Austria - what's the same) until World War 1+2 changed this forever by displacing all Germans from this area where some of their ancestors had lived since decades of thousands of years.


----------



## xyz (Oct 15, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> Your own idiocies and war propaganda when you had been an ally of the Russian Czar and an ally of the Russian Soviets?


What are you talking about?

I meant that the Nazis annexed Sudetenland like Putler annexed part of Ukraine.


----------



## xyz (Oct 15, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Now with the failed invasion that fear is lessened. It is obvious when Russian spokesmen remind the world twice or three times a week that Nuclear War will result.


They also threaten individual countries approximately on a monthly basis: the Baltics, Poland, Germany, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. Sometimes they change the reasons for the threats.

It's not always that easy to find news on this because it's mostly local to those countries.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> In the days immediately preceding the Russian advance into Ukraine, there was an increase in shelling coming from Zelensky's forces. It seems likely he was told to provoke a Russian response and when that came US sanctions would cripple the Russian economy withing weeks. Now it's beginning to look like NATO will fragment long before Russia does.


Dude, it's pretty obvious at this point that Dissident is a Russian troll but what the heck is your excuse?  The above post borders on farce.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Dude, it's pretty obvious at this point that Dissident is a Russian troll but what the heck is your excuse?  The above post borders on farce.


Which part of the post do you find farcical, the allegation that the US instructed Zelensky to provoke a Russian response or anti-NATO protests are breaking out in Europe?

Anti-NATO Mass protests erupt in France, Germany and parts of Europe | Zee English News


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Which part of the post do you find farcical, the allegation that the US instructed Zelensky to provoke a Russian response or anti-NATO protests are breaking out in Europe?
> 
> Anti-NATO Mass protests erupt in France, Germany and parts of Europe | Zee English News


That the US instructed Zelensky to provoke a Russian response!  Not even Joe Biden is stupid enough to come up with that plan!  How would it benefit us in any way?


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Which part of the post do you find farcical, the allegation that the US instructed Zelensky to provoke a Russian response or anti-NATO protests are breaking out in Europe?
> 
> Anti-NATO Mass protests erupt in France, Germany and parts of Europe | Zee English News


I watched your video, George.  The protests are against high cost of living throughout Europe.  The morons in Europe "tied their wagons" to Putin's oil and gas supply and now they're shocked because he's using that oil and natural gas as an economic weapon against them!


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> That the US instructed Zelensky to provoke a Russian response!  Not even Joe Biden is stupid enough to come up with that plan!  How would it benefit us in any way?


Obama warned us about underestimating Joe.

US investors looted Russia in the 1990s to the tune of billion$, and they never have enough. If Biden was stupid enough to believe Putin hadn't been planning to defeat western economic sanctions over the past eight years, he might have expected regime change in Moscow long before now.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Obama warned us about underestimating Joe.
> 
> US investors looted Russia in the 1990s to the tune of billion$, and they never have enough. If Biden was stupid enough to believe Putin hadn't been planning to defeat western economic sanctions over the past eight years, he might have expected regime change in Moscow long before now.


With all due respect, George...the absolutely remarkable thing about Joe Biden is his ability to be wrong on virtually every foreign policy position he's ever taken!  Some people have a knack for being right on policy...Joe has a knack for being wrong!  It's just who he is.  Obama knew that.  It's part of the reason why he backed Hillary instead of Joe.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> I watched your video, George.  The protests are against high cost of living throughout Europe.  The morons in Europe "tied their wagons" to Putin's oil and gas supply and now they're shocked because he's using that oil and natural gas as an economic weapon against them!


Actually, Putin's responding to the US instigating an illegal coup in Ukraine eight years ago which has now roiled energy markets solely because of US sanctions. 

Look at a map. 

Russia is part of Europe. 

America is not. 

Only Americans are sufficiently arrogant to believe Europe should buy their gas from thousands of miles away instead of their local neighborhood gas station (with atomic weapons).


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Actually, Putin's responding to the US instigating an illegal coup in Ukraine eight years ago which has now roiled energy markets solely because of US sanctions.
> 
> Look at a map.
> 
> ...


Given what's happened with Russia...do you think Europe's decision to go with Russian oil and natural gas was a smart one?  Let's be honest here...they're pretty much screwed this winter!  I hate to go the "I told you so" route but Donald Trump warned them not to trust Putin and European leaders ignored that advice.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 15, 2022)

And Russia has never really been part of Europe.  They're Europe's neighbor more than a member of Europe.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> With all due respect, George...the absolutely remarkable thing about Joe Biden is his ability to be wrong on virtually every foreign policy position he's ever taken!  Some people have a knack for being right on policy...Joe has a knack for being wrong!  It's just who he is.  Obama knew that.  It's part of the reason why he backed Hillary instead of Joe.


There's a recent video with Colonel Douglas Macgregor and Andrew Napolitano talking about Biden, Apparently, the latter has known Joe for decades and he says he doesn't recognize him today. Personally, Biden looks like the same arrogant/ignorant jock he's always been. Imho, neither Biden nor Trump is qualified to be POTUS, but the former has brought the world closer to a nuclear exchange than any time since 1962.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Given what's happened with Russia...do you think Europe's decision to go with Russian oil and natural gas was a smart one?  Let's be honest here...they're pretty much screwed this winter!  I hate to go the "I told you so" route but Donald Trump warned them not to trust Putin and European leaders ignored that advice.


What did Trump have to say about western sanctions on Russian oil and gas?
I guess we'll just have to wait and see how many European governments are voted out of office before next spring due to the effects of those sanctions? Since the end of WWII it's been " keep the US in, keep Russia out, keep Germany down." Perhaps European voters want a new plan.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> And Russia has never really been part of Europe.  They're Europe's neighbor more than a member of Europe.


Ukraine is either the first or second most corrupt state in Europe depending on whether or not you count Russia.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 15, 2022)

xyz said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I meant that the Nazis annexed Sudetenland like Putler annexed part of Ukraine.



What's a totally wrong comparison which shows that you have not any clue about real history. The so called "Great German Empire" has been an idea which had absolutelly nothing to do with Hitler. It meant to take back the exclusion of Austria from Germany - and so also the exclusion of Bohemia and Moravia from Germany - which the Prussians had caused. Indeed had been "Germany" a wrong name for Germany from 1870-1945. The more correct name for Germany during this time of history had been "Prussia". The homeland of Prussia had been in their Baltic homeland which is today a Russian exclave  called "Oblast  Kaliningrad" - after all Germans had been displaced from this area (and also from big areas which are today Poland which never had been Poland in history before). Somehow is the complete history of the whole area of this region nothing else than a big war crime which everyone is used to accept because of the wrong excuse "Hitler". This outlaw-situation explains very well why the Russians do not have any moral conception for this what they are doing there. They like to accept only the poor concept "strength". But they are more strong than the Ukraine and they have nevertheless to give up the nonsense they are doing now.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Ukraine is either the first or second most corrupt state in Europe depending on whether or not you count Russia.



And Belarus is now the absolute corrupt lost state where no one seems to have any longer any chanve to resist against Lukashenko in the current situation of world politics. And Selensky is the signal to end all this corruption and to try to become free members of a free world.

In memoriam:
_Here speaks RIAS Berlin - a free voice of the free world._


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> And Russia has never really been part of Europe.  They're Europe's neighbor more than a member of Europe.



What a bullshit.

"Russia" about 1500 years ago had been a kind of big farm with a village not far from Kiev. The Russians currently attack their own roots.

Here by the way a piece of the "normal" life of totally "normal" people living "normal" lifes  in Russia and Germany. It's about the book: "Das Wunder von St. Petersburg" (The wonder of Saint Petersburg) from Maria Blumencron.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 15, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> And Russia has never really been part of Europe.  They're Europe's neighbor more than a member of Europe.



Oh by the way. The USA is also a part of Europe. You are a child of the European enlightenment. And Russia is a Christian child of East-Rome. And now Europe, Russia and the USA  need a good solution for the current confusion of man made conflicts ... which are far from to be only a military conflict in the Ukraine.


----------



## krichton (Oct 16, 2022)

No such policies exist, except in the deranged mind of your typical Putin apologist.   This was a land grab pure and simple.


----------



## alexa (Oct 16, 2022)

krichton said:


> No such policies exist, except in the deranged mind of your typical Putin apologist.   This was a land grab pure and simple.


Russia has two main interests in this.  It's safety and its financial security.

Russia had an agreement with the US that if it allowed the reunification of Germany the US would expand NATO no further.  The US agreed to this but despite pleas again and again it has just moved further and further up to Russia's borders and in 2008 it announced that it would soon be taking Georgia and Ukraine into NATO as well.  Lavrov warned the US that if it did not stop Russia would have to move into those areas.  The US did not stop.  Russia is a very large country and it seems that Ukraine being in NATO would mean Russia would be very vulnerable to attack by NATO at any time.

By 2014 the US was deeply involved in the politics in Ukraine and the differences in the desire to be close to Russia the East or the EU the West. They taught the Ukrainians to act in an undemocratic way against those in the East and we had an 8 year war here.  Ukraine only being able to do this due to US weapons and US and UK military training. All of this is about Russia being concerned about its security and to be frank I see their point.

Now when this fighting broke out in 2014 after the President had been ousted by the West of Ukraine because of his choice over who he thought could help Ukraine best, Russia thought it might as well take Crimea while it was there.  Crimea having for some reason being given to Ukraine in 54 - something Russia expected to make no difference as they were both in the Soviet Union.  Something which did make a big difference now they were no longer working together.  Russia wanted Crimea because of its strategic position and Russia wanted Crimea because gas has been found around it and Russia does not want Ukraine to be competing with them over that.  They said it was because of the Russians living in Crimea and that went down well with people at home but given how the US was moving NATO including Ukraine to completely circle it Russia did need Crimea and anything else it could get to protect itself from NATO having the ability to pop in and take what it wanted at any time.

Russia then moved over to the East and tried to get them voting to join Russia.  In truth at this time the majority of East Ukrainians strongly wanted to stay in Ukraine.  I hear the Donesk region also has oil.

Ukraine has chosen to have bad relations with its neighbour while holding onto the shirt tales of NATO, Russia's biggest rival.  The US had previously promised not to do this and had it not, Russia would not have agreed to the reunification of Germany.

The US knew where this would lead.  It had been told where it would lead and why and yet it continued working towards it.

Now we are on the verge of nuclear war.

So security is the reason why Russia came into Ukraine.  Security and gas (or oil) was the reason it took Crimea.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 16, 2022)

krichton said:


> No such policies exist, except in the deranged mind of your typical Putin apologist.   This was a land grab pure and simple.



Do you speak with me?


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> No.


Does it mean that you find it fair and correct that Ukraine wanted to take back Crimea by military force *AND* to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people?

About Ukrainian legislation please read in the first post of this thread.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Does it mean that you find it fair and correct that Ukraine wanted to take back Crimea by military force *AND* to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people?
> 
> About Ukrainian legislation please read in the first post of this thread.



I think when the Russian soldiers and their Russian infra-structure will have left the Crimean peninsula and the Ukrainians will work together with the German or another European tourist industry then this could be a step to earn some money to reduce the 750 billion Euro damages Russia has caused in the Ukraine while Russia is not able to pay for.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> I think when the Russian soldiers and their Russian infra-structure will have left the Crimean peninsula and the Ukrainians will work together with the German or another European tourist industry then this could be a step to earn some money to reduce the 750 billion Euro damages Russia has caused in the Ukraine while Russia is not able to pay for.


That is really a *SUPER *answer to my question to you - the question is repeated below in blue letters.

Does it mean that you find it fair and correct that Ukraine wanted to take back Crimea by military force *AND* to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people?
About Ukrainian legislation please read in the first post of this thread


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 16, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Now, when Russia inevitably capitulates and has to return those territories, will it suck to be an ethnic Russia in Crimea or Donbass? You betcha.  A good example would be what happened to Ethnic Serbs in Croatia and Kosovo in the 1990's... they had to relocate to Serbia proper.
> 
> The good news is Russia has plenty of land to resettle those people.


 Is that how you lull yourself into thinking that Russia will lose? By watching CNN, BBC and other bullshitters you have plenty of and bandying about that with your equally delusional assholes of forummites? You know it'll never happen. Ukraine have lost and "progressive" world's help will just prolong its agony a little, nothing more. You better address that part of your brain that's still adjustable and warm it up to the fact so that the final demise of your beloved Banderastan does not hurt that much.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> Is that how you lull yourself into thinking that Russia will lose? By watching CNN, BBC and other bullshitters you have plenty of ...?


Yesterday I wrote here that it has no sense to retell news in this thread.
This thread is about more important thing than news.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

And nobody of my opponents has answered the question which, in my opinion, is the most important one (see blue question below).

My opponents prefer to write here about "who was shelling whom", "who is winning" etc.

Do you find it fair and correct that Ukraine wanted to take back Crimea by military force *AND* to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people?
About Ukrainian legislation please read in the first post of this thread


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> That is really a *SUPER *answer to my question to you



I know. Or do you think Russia will pay the 750 billions directly to the Ukraine and will pay a compensation to all Russians and Ukrainians who lost someone in this totally superflous and senseless war?



Dissident said:


> - the question is repeated below in blue letters.
> 
> Does it mean that you find it fair and correct that Ukraine wanted to take back Crimea by military force *AND* to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people?
> About Ukrainian legislation please read in the first post of this thread



Let me say it in this way: Russia and human rights are always an interesting discussion - but no one thinks in such discussions Russia is a lawyer protecting the human rights of all Russians or anyone else in the world. But this is a discussion about minorities in context of the membership of the Ukraine in the EU. I do not think we Germans will start in this conetxt a discussion about how many German pows Russians and/or Ukrainians had murdered - specially also in this annexed area. I fear if revenge would be a right at all then we had the right to kill everyone there.


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 16, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> Is that how you lull yourself into thinking that Russia will lose? By watching CNN, BBC and other bullshitters you have plenty of and bandying about that with your equally delusional assholes of forummites? You know it'll never happen. Ukraine have lost and "progressive" world's help will just prolong its agony a little, nothing more. You better address that part of your brain that's still adjustable and warm it up to the fact so that the final demise of your beloved Banderastan does not hurt that much.



Well the rub is that Russia admits it is losing territory. They fired a General, one of many, to try and turn it around. Russia has activated Reserves who are angry at being sent as cannon fodder. Two of the reservists just opened fire on their fellow troops and killed 11 and wounded 22 according to TASS. 

The way Russia is winning is like Wimp Lo in Kung Pow. 


I am bleeding. That means I’ve won.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 16, 2022)

alexa said:


> ... Now we are on the verge of nuclear war. ...



And what will Putin do now? It's clear what someone from the NATO said. If Putin will use a nuke in this totally superflous and senseless war from Russia against the Ukraine then the NATO will not answer with nukes - nevertheless the NATO will answer - and this answer will mean the end of the Russian army.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> Let me say it this way: *Russia *and human rights are always an interesting discussion - but no one thinks in such discussions *Russia *is a lawyer protecting the human rights of all Russians or anyone else in the world.



But you haven't still answered my question about *Ukraine *although I had asked you this question twice.
And I believe that Ukraine and human rights is a much more interesting discussion.
And a very interesting discussion is the U.S. attitude to human rights in Ukraine.

For example, the U.S. were deeply concerned about *9 unresolved political murders in Russia* – whose population was 143-144 millions – in the period from 2004 to 2012.
But the U.S. are not concerned at all about at least *185 unresolved political murders in Ukraine *– whose population is 40-43 millions - in the last 8 years (see here).


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

alexa said:


> Russia has two main interests in this.  It's safety and its financial security.
> 
> Russia had an agreement with the US that if it allowed the reunification of Germany the US would expand NATO no further.  The US agreed to this but despite pleas again and again it has just moved further and further up to Russia's borders and in 2008 it announced that it would soon be taking Georgia and Ukraine into NATO as well.  Lavrov warned the US that if it did not stop Russia would have to move into those areas.  The US did not stop.  Russia is a very large country and it seems that Ukraine being in NATO would mean Russia would be very vulnerable to attack by NATO at any time.
> 
> ...


Care to explain why Finland and Sweden suddenly feel the need to join NATO to protect themselves from Putin?  Putin isn't "defending" Russia...he's aggressively trying to reconstitute the old Soviet empire under the Russian flag through military might.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> And nobody of my opponents has answered the question which, in my opinion, is the most important one (see blue question below).
> 
> My opponents prefer to write here about "who was shelling whom", "who is winning" etc.
> 
> ...


Nobody is buying your propaganda, Dissident!  Ukraine wanting to take back what Russia has seized by force isn't justification for a Russian invasion.  Claiming it is borders on farce!  You Russians are guilty of war crimes.  Under Putin you're the second coming of the Nazis.  The only difference is that the Russian people seem to be coming to their senses about how evil their "leader" actually is!  More and more of them are refusing to fight for him.


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Care to explain why Finland and Sweden suddenly feel the need to join NATO to protect themselves from Putin?  Putin isn't "defending" Russia...he's aggressively trying to reconstitute the old Soviet empire under the Russian flag through military might.


Laughably absurd.


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Nobody is buying your propaganda, Dissident!  Ukraine wanting to take back what Russia has seized by force isn't justification for a Russian invasion.  Claiming it is borders on farce!  You Russians are guilty of war crimes.  Under Putin you're the second coming of the Nazis.  The only difference is that the Russian people seem to be coming to their senses about how evil their "leader" actually is!  More and more of them are refusing to fight for him.


Get informed. Don’t allow the criminal state and it’s controlled media to keep you ignorant.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Nobody is buying your propaganda, Dissident!


Nobody of (pro-)Ukrainian users want to answer Yes or Not to the blue question below although I have asked this question many times.

(Pro-)Ukrainian prefer to write here about "who was shelling whom", "who is winning", about "nuclear war": etc.

Do you find it fair and correct that Ukraine wanted to take back Crimea by military force *AND* to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people?
About Ukrainian legislation please read in the first post of this thread


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Nobody is buying your propaganda, Dissident!  Ukraine wanting to take back what Russia has seized by force isn't justification for a Russian invasion.  Claiming it is borders on farce!  You Russians are guilty of war crimes.  Under Putin you're the second coming of the Nazis.  The only difference is that the Russian people seem to be coming to their senses about how evil their "leader" actually is!  More and more of them are refusing to fight for him.


Very suspicious no?


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Care to explain why Finland and Sweden suddenly feel the need to join NATO to protect themselves from Putin?  Putin isn't "defending" Russia...he's aggressively trying to reconstitute the old Soviet empire under the Russian flag through military might.


GET INFORMED!  Stop accepting propaganda and lies by the criminal state and media.


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Nobody is buying your propaganda, Dissident!  Ukraine wanting to take back what Russia has seized by force isn't justification for a Russian invasion.  Claiming it is borders on farce!  You Russians are guilty of war crimes.  Under Putin you're the second coming of the Nazis.  The only difference is that the Russian people seem to be coming to their senses about how evil their "leader" actually is!  More and more of them are refusing to fight for him.


You know?


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Care to explain why Finland and Sweden suddenly feel the need to join NATO to protect themselves from Putin?  Putin isn't "defending" Russia...he's aggressively trying to reconstitute the old Soviet empire under the Russian flag through military might.


Even Tucker, a member in good standing of the establishment, knows more than you.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

gipper said:


> Get informed. Don’t allow the criminal state and it’s controlled media to keep you ignorant.


What does that even mean, Gipper?  You think you're more "informed" than I am?  How?  What is the "criminal state"?  Ukraine?  It's a corrupt nation but then again most of the former Soviet bloc nations are!  Does that mean we shouldn't support them when they're being invaded by a bigger neighbor?  I found Kuwait to be a corrupt nation as well but understood why it was the right thing to do to aid them when they were invaded by Iraq.
As far as a "controlled media" goes...the only media I would consider more controlled than Russia's is possibly China's!


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

gipper said:


> You know?


You "anarchists" always amuse me.  You never have answers to problems.  You never want to do the hard work to fix things.  You're the ass holes that think tearing it all down is the way to go!


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

gipper said:


> Very suspicious no?


The very fact that you think Lavrov is someone with even a shred of credibility astounds me, Gipper!


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> The very fact that you think Lavrov is someone with even a shred of credibility astounds me, Gipper!


Yet you think western leaders like dumb Joe are to be believed. Lol.


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> What does that even mean, Gipper?  You think you're more "informed" than I am?  How?  What is the "criminal state"?  Ukraine?  It's a corrupt nation but then again most of the former Soviet bloc nations are!  Does that mean we shouldn't support them when they're being invaded by a bigger neighbor?  I found Kuwait to be a corrupt nation as well but understood why it was the right thing to do to aid them when they were invaded by Iraq.
> As far as a "controlled media" goes...the only media I would consider more controlled than Russia's is possibly China's!


Oh I’m exponentially more informed than you. 

Americans are the most propagandized people in the world. You are further evidence of this. 
This isn’t news to informed people.


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 16, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Well the rub is that Russia admits it is losing territory. They fired a General, one of many, to try and turn it around. Russia has activated Reserves who are angry at being sent as cannon fodder. Two of the reservists just opened fire on their fellow troops and killed 11 and wounded 22 according to TASS.
> 
> The way Russia is winning is like Wimp Lo in Kung Pow.
> 
> ...


Another *rub *is Hohols don't. (Do you even use this word these days? I thought it was Hamlet who voiced it a thousand years ago.) The bleeding thing, was that about them, the Ukrs? They are lured in, conveniently slaughtered in mass and that's where the profuse bleeding commences, don't you think?


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> What is the "criminal state"?  Ukraine?  It's a corrupt nation but then again most of the former Soviet bloc nations are!  Does that mean we shouldn't support them when they're being invaded by a bigger neighbor?



OK, it does not matter for the U.S. that *Ukraine is a corrupt nation*.

It does not matter for the U.S. that *there is Nazi legislation in Ukraine* (please see the first post of this thread).

It does not matter for the U.S. that *there is a vast number of unresolved political murders in Ukraine* (please see here).

It does not matter at all for the U.S. what kind of a country Ukraine is.

If any country “is being invaded by a bigger neighbor”, the U.S. must support this smaller country.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> It’s a difficult question which nation and when had the majority in Crimea.
> 
> In English Wikipedia, in the article “Demographics of Crimea” you can read that *for almost 100 last years* (since 1926 census) ethnic Russians are the largest ethnic group in Crimea and for more than 60 years (since 1959 census) they are majority there.
> 
> Therefore, the Ukrainian attempt to turn them into third-grade people is utterly ridiculous.


The problem is that many of Ukraines cheerleaders at USMB don’t believe Azov are Nazis because “Zelen$ky is Jewish”


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> The problem is that many of Ukraines cheerleaders at USMB don’t believe Azov are Nazis because “Zelen$ky is Jewish”



I don’t know a lot about Azov.

But I know that the Ukrainian President, the Jew Zelensky signed the Law On Secondary Education in Ukraine and this Law divides ethnic minorities in Ukraine into 3 categories – first-grade people, second-grade people and third-grade people; the greatest minority - ethnic Russians – has become a third-grade people under this Law.

And Nazi Germany had the same legislation – the Danish minority was first-grade people there, Slavic minority was second-grade people and Jewish minority was third-grade people.

*Therefore, the Jew Zelensky is a Nazi for me.*


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> OK, it does not matter for the U.S. that *Ukraine is a corrupt nation*.
> 
> It does not matter for the U.S. that *there is Nazi legislation in Ukraine* (please see the first post of this thread).
> 
> ...



The problem is this. No matter how bad the Ukrainians are in your propaganda. The Russians are far worse. 

Allowing them to take Ukraine would give them a strong stepping stone to attack the rest of Europe. And after the lies they told repeatedly leading up to the war and during it, there is no way to trust them if they claim to have no such designs. 

The next obvious question is this. If we don’t draw the line in Ukraine, where do we draw the line? Lithuania? Poland? Germany? 

Or do we just give Europe to Russia because we are afraid? 

Then what? Russia has already claimed that Alaska must be returned to them. So do we give them Alaska? 

What comes next is a question never answered by the Zampolit like yourself. 

And no matter how bad you claim Ukraine is, Russia is far worse. 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/16/russia-mobilization-men/
		


Russia is grabbing men off the street and sending them to die as little more than cannon fodder. Essentially untrained. Poorly equipped. And incompetently led these men will die needlessly. They are going up against blooded veterans. With far better equipment. Better trained. And led by successful commanders. 

And what will be the outcome? General Winter will not save the Russians from people who are also experienced with the weather. If anything. The technology used by the Ukrainians will be more effective in the cold. Thermal sources will stand out like neon signs against frozen ground. 

That is the truth you continue to ignore. The Ukrainians may not be perfect, but compared to the thugs in Russia. They are angels. 

And Russia has been doing it during their entire existence. 



			Wayback Machine
		


No matter how bad you make the Ukrainians out to be. Compared to the brutality and the discrimination and criminality of the Russians? They are like hoodlum children compared to a drug cartel. 

So again. I say screw the lying assed Russians and their Propaganda tools here.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Allowing them (Russians) to take Ukraine would give them a strong stepping stone to attack the rest of Europe...
> 
> The next obvious question is this. If we don’t draw the line in Ukraine, where do we draw the line? Lithuania? Poland? Germany?
> 
> ...



Almighty and Terrible Russia has not been able to defeat *40-million-strong* Ukraine for almost *eight months*.

But after Russia defeats 40-million-strong Ukraine, Russian troops will of course seize *453-million-strong* European Union, *300-million-strong* U.S. and the rest of the world within a couple of weeks.

Therefore, the whole world has to help Ukraine in order not to be seized by Almighty and Terrible Russia.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> The Russians are far worse (than Ukrainians).


Thank you that you don't say that Ukrainians are good.

But what are your measure units which allow you to conclude that  Russians are worse than Ukrainians?

If I, for example, calculate number of unresolved political murders per one million people in Ukraine and Russia (see here), I conclude that *Ukrainians are 71,5-fold worse than Russians.   *


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> You "anarchists" always amuse me.  You never have answers to problems.  You never want to do the hard work to fix things.  You're the ass holes that think tearing it all down is the way to go!


Yeah demanding peace and a policy of nonintervention are just not solutions to our problems.


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> What does that even mean, Gipper?  You think you're more "informed" than I am?  How?  What is the "criminal state"?  Ukraine?  It's a corrupt nation but then again most of the former Soviet bloc nations are!  Does that mean we shouldn't support them when they're being invaded by a bigger neighbor?  I found Kuwait to be a corrupt nation as well but understood why it was the right thing to do to aid them when they were invaded by Iraq.
> As far as a "controlled media" goes...the only media I would consider more controlled than Russia's is possibly China's!


You mean in addition to not knowing anything about the war in Ukraine, you don’t know our government is a criminal enterprise. WTF?  Do you get all your news from Fox News?


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Thank you that you don't say that Ukrainians are good.
> 
> But what are your measure units which allow you to conclude that  Russians are worse than Ukrainians?
> 
> If I, for example, calculate number of unresolved political murders per one million people in Ukraine and Russia (see here), I conclude that *Ukrainians are 71,5-fold worse than Russians.   *



Misquoting someone is a classic sign of propaganda Zampolit. 

I said that the Russians are far worse in reality than the Ukrainians are in your propaganda. 

Everything you do shows you up for a pathetic sock for the Russians. 

The Russians and their trolls must do that. Because truth is feared.


----------



## xyz (Oct 16, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> What's a totally wrong comparison which shows that you have not any clue about real history. The so called "Great German Empire" has been an idea which had absolutelly nothing to do with Hitler. It meant to take back the exclusion of Austria from Germany - and so also the exclusion of Bohemia and Moravia from Germany - which the Prussians had caused. Indeed had been "Germany" a wrong name for Germany from 1870-1945. The more correct name for Germany during this time of history had been "Prussia". The homeland of Prussia had been in their Baltic homeland which is today a Russian exclave  called "Oblast  Kaliningrad" - after all Germans had been displaced from this area (and also from big areas which are today Poland which never had been Poland in history before). Somehow is the complete history of the whole area of this region nothing else than a big war crime which everyone is used to accept because of the wrong excuse "Hitler". This outlaw-situation explains very well why the Russians do not have any moral conception for this what they are doing there. They like to accept only the poor concept "strength". But they are more strong than the Ukraine and they have nevertheless to give up the nonsense they are doing now.


I know about the Holy Roman Empire, but according to you the Czech lands and Moravia should become Germany because they had some German speakers there? Yeah, I know, one of the emperors was Czech. So?

What about Northern Italy? It was also part of the Holy Roman Empire. So then you would think Italy should be a part of Germany, or Germany should be a part of Italy?


----------



## Dissident (Oct 16, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> I said that the Russians are far worse in reality than the Ukrainians are in your propaganda.



And I asked you what are your measure units which allow you to conclude that Russians are worse than Ukrainians?

Number of unresolved political murders per one million people in Ukraine and Russia?


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Misquoting someone is a classic sign of propaganda Zampolit.
> 
> I said that the Russians are far worse in reality than the Ukrainians are in your propaganda.
> 
> ...


Who gives a fuck who’s worse?  Their war is none of the USG’s fucking business.




if only!


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Almighty and Terrible Russia has not been able to defeat *40-million-strong* Ukraine for almost *eight months*.
> 
> But after Russia defeats 40-million-strong Ukraine, Russian troops will of course seize *453-million-strong* European Union, *300-million-strong* U.S. and the rest of the world within a couple of weeks.
> 
> Therefore, the whole world has to help Ukraine in order not to be seized by Almighty and Terrible Russia.


Yeah they like to say Putin’s a madman, yet they also claim he’d never use nukes.


----------



## xyz (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> You "anarchists" always amuse me.  You never have answers to problems.  You never want to do the hard work to fix things.  You're the ass holes that think tearing it all down is the way to go!


And you're gullible enough to think he's an anarchist because he writes that in his profile. He seems much too supportive of Russia's viewpoint to be an anarchist.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yet you think western leaders like dumb Joe are to be believed. Lol.


Where did I ever say that Biden was believable?  He's been telling lies since Nixon was in office!


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yeah demanding peace and a policy of nonintervention are just not solutions to our problems.


Yeah, because as we all know...anarchists are so well known for demanding "peace"!  (eye roll)


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

Dissident said:


> OK, it does not matter for the U.S. that *Ukraine is a corrupt nation*.
> 
> It does not matter for the U.S. that *there is Nazi legislation in Ukraine* (please see the first post of this thread).
> 
> ...


There is corruption throughout the former Soviet bloc, Dissident.  Name a former Soviet territory that ISN'T corrupt!

What is "Nazi" legislation?

With all due respect, when it comes to political murder...Vladimir Putin makes almost anyone else look like a rank amateur.  He's been killing off his political opposition for years.


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Yeah, because as we all know...anarchists are so well known for demanding "peace"!  (eye roll)


Lol. Clearly you know nothing about anarchism. Just another topic you’re uninformed about.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 16, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. Clearly you know nothing about anarchism. Just another topic you’re uninformed about.


I was a History major with a concentration in European history.  I have a rather good idea what "anarchists" have done down through the years, Gipper!  Do you?


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> I was a History major with a concentration in European history.  I have a rather good idea what "anarchists" have done down through the years, Gipper!  Do you?


Pray tell?


----------



## gipper (Oct 16, 2022)

xyz said:


> And you're gullible enough to think he's an anarchist because he writes that in his profile. He seems much too supportive of Russia's viewpoint to be an anarchist.


Hahahahahahahaha


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> But you haven't still answered my question about *Ukraine *although I had asked you this question twice.



Be happy that you are still alive, Russian. And if you love life then you should perhaps try to think about wht others say to you. Russia is the criminal country and not so anyone else.



Dissident said:


> And I believe that Ukraine and human rights is a much more interesting discussion.



This discussion will be a European discussion and not a Russian discussion.



Dissident said:


> And a very interesting discussion is the U.S. attitude to human rights in Ukraine.



?



Dissident said:


> For example, the U.S. were deeply concerned about *9 unresolved political murders in Russia* – whose population was 143-144 millions – in the period from 2004 to 2012.



Unfortunatelly I am not able to think the Russian government murdered only 9 people.



Dissident said:


> But the U.S. are not concerned at all about at least *185 unresolved political murders in Ukraine *– whose population is 40-43 millions - in the last 8 years (see here).



And who did do so in the Ukraine? Russia?


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 17, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> Be happy that you are still alive, Russian. And if you love life then you should perhaps try to think about wht others say to you. Russia is the criminal country and not so anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, Fritz, you're German, aren't you? Shut up and cry shamefully in a corner.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

xyz said:


> I know about the Holy Roman Empire, but according to you the Czech lands and Moravia should become Germany because they had some German speakers there? Yeah, I know, one of the emperors was Czech. So?



A Czech never had been emperor of the Holy Roman empire. How should this had been able to happen - except he had been the leader of an old noble Germanic or Celtic house? And Germans lived a long time in this area before the first Czechs arrived there.



xyz said:


> eWhat about Northern Italy? It was also part of the Holy Roman Empire.



So what? The Germans who lived there are still there - and anyway this would not make any sense in this case because the Italians lived there before Germanics came into this area. And the ancestors of the Germans had nit only been Germanics and Celts but also Romans.



xyz said:


> So then you would think Italy should be a part of Germany, or Germany should be a part of Italy?



This would make not any sense. The name "Lombards" comes from the word "Langobards" and the Italian speaking Lombards for example are Italians mixed with Germanics. This had happenend in a similar way everywhere in the western world - in England and France for example - and even in Africa, where the "Vandals" lived and founded later in Spain (V)"Andalusia". No one would had called the inhabitants of Andalusia Germans - but indeed the Andalusians also had Germanic roots - although they had been Muslims coming from Africa.

And not to forget: Not any word of the expression "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation" has the same meaning today as it had once. "Holy" = basing on Christian values, "Roman"=Rule of [written] law, "Empire"=Union with an authoritarian but elected leader, "of German nation" =of united nations speaking a common down to earth language.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


That’s an interesting and credibly theory. This is the first time I’m hearing it. It adds to the narrative that Putin acted to save Russians in Donbass


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> Hey, Fritz, you're German, aren't you? Shut up and cry shamefully in a corner.



And others suggest to us we should think about to kill all Russians without any scruple to do so. So what do you think will be our choice? I love corners - specially the "von Neumann corner" in the USA - on the other side I heard from German and English soldiers who reported about that in war it can happen to kill enemies is able to make a lot of fun. Perhaps we should try to find out in Russia whether this hypothese is really true?


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 17, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> And others suggest to us we should think about to kill all Russians without any scruple to do so. So what do you think will be our choice? I love corners - specially the "von Neumann corner" in the USA - on the other side I heard from German and English soldiers who reported about that in war it can happen to kill enemies is able to make a lot of fun. Perhaps we should try to find out in Russia whether this hypothese is really true?


You tried, Fritz, several times I think. What came of it, remember? You know why I call you Fritz? You seem to have no idea, haven't you?


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> You tried, Fritz, several times I think. What came of it, remember? You know why I call you Fritz? ...


Because you do not know what's the difference between the dead Prussians and a living German.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> You tried, Fritz, several times I think. What came of it, remember? You know why I call you Fritz? You seem to have no idea, haven't you?



By the way: As far as I know Germany and Russia never had been in any war against each other - exception is only the weird "Stalin-Hitler-game" or "Nazi-Soviet-war" in which Stalin murdered much more Russians than Hitler did do - and Hitler murdered much more Germans (including the Ashkenazim = the Jews who spoke the German language Yiddish) than Stalin did do.

And I heard one of the Prussian kings had conquered once Moscow - but I do not know now who this had been. Anyway my own German tribe always had hated the Prussians so perhaps we had helped Russia if we had been able to do so. But in the end: We always had been weaker than the Prussians - they always had been much stronger. But: We are alive - they are dead. And this is not our fault nor the fault of any other German tribe.


In the orginal of this Prussian song was written "Ostseestrand" - not "Memelstrand" as it is sung today on reason of political correctness.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> With all due respect, when it comes to political murder...Vladimir Putin makes almost anyone else look like a rank amateur.  He's been killing off his political opposition for years.


As a rule, the unresolved deaths of Russian opposition figures are their deaths in Western Europe or in the U.A.

And these deaths must be resolved by authorities of respective countries, not by Russia.
But, as a rule, authorities of Western European countries and the U.S. never find any culprits.
Or to be more exact, they *say *that they haven't found any culprits.

I am sure that most of these deaths have been resolved but it has been found that Russia had nothing to do with these deaths. However, authorities of Western European countries and the U.S. *prefer to pretend to be fools* who are incapable to resolve crimes on their own territories.



zaangalewa said:


> And who did do so (almost 200 unresolved political murders) in the Ukraine? Russia?


If somebody is shot dead, burnt alive, stabbed to death etc. on the territory, which is under control of Ukrainian rulers, it is the duty of Ukrainian rulers to find who are the culprits.

But in numerous cases Ukrainian rulers – like authorities of Western European countries and the U.S. – say that they cannot find any culprits.

In my opinion, such cases are too numerous – almost 200 unresolved political murders in the last 8 years (see here) – for a relatively small Ukraine.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> As a rule, the unresolved deaths of Russian opposition figures are their deaths in Western Europe or in the U.A.
> 
> And these deaths must be resolved by authorities of respective countries, not by Russia.
> But, as a rule, authorities of Western European countries and the U.S. never find any culprits.
> ...


You should do stand up comedy, Dude!  You honestly think you can come here and whitewash Putin's decades long history of killing and imprisoning his political opposition?  I don't know what they're paying you for this nonsense but it's a waste of money!


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> That’s an interesting and credibly theory. This is the first time I’m hearing it. It adds to the narrative that Putin acted to save Russians in Donbass


Don't be the Class Dolt, Frank!  Credible theory?  Putin acted to "save" Russians in Donbass by attacking the rest of Ukraine and slaughtering thousands?  That is exactly the rationale that Hitler used to seize territory before WWII.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> ... Putin's decades long history of killing ... his political opposition?



If there is a “Putin's *long history* of killing his political opposition”, there must be a *long list *of names of victims who have been killed in Russia and whose deaths are unresolved.

And if they have been killed abroad, there must be court decisions confirming that Russia was culpable of these crimes.

And in this thread, you can find at least *185 *names of victims of political murders in Ukraine whose deaths are – as Ukrainian rules allege – unresolved.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Don't be the Class Dolt, Frank!  Credible theory?  Putin acted to "save" Russians in Donbass by attacking the rest of Ukraine and slaughtering thousands?  That is exactly the rationale that Hitler used to seize territory before WWII.


Odd that the real Nazis in this story are Ukrainian


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Don't be the Class Dolt, Frank!  Credible theory?  Putin acted to "save" Russians in Donbass by attacking the rest of Ukraine and slaughtering thousands?  That is exactly the rationale that Hitler used to seize territory before WWII.



But in case of Hitler-Germany this had been true. You should really forget your Hitler-Putin comparison. The second greatest group of the people from Czecho-Germano-Slovakia - ah sorry: Czechoslovakia - was heavy under fire from the Slawic nationalists - what's the reason why many of them had been supporters of Adolf Hitler. This nonsense had been produced from the allies of world war 1 and this also had helped Hitler to come in power.

In case of the Donbass region Putin had sent lots of combatants into this region and strengthend or made the riots and problems in this region on his own. The most people who had been murdered there not had been Russians but had been Ukrainians.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Odd that the real Nazis in this story are Ukrainian



For idiots! The Ukrainians voted in the last elections for a Jew. So the most Ukrainians are not Nazis and gave a clear signal against Nazism. And in all countries of the world exist some Nazis - in most cases they are only some frustrated members of a sub-culture and like to provoke.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> You should do stand up comedy, Dude!  You honestly think you can come here and whitewash Putin's decades long history of killing and imprisoning his political opposition?  I don't know what they're paying you for this nonsense but it's a waste of money!


Here is some good info to help you get informed.

Former Swiss intelligence officer and NATO adviser Jacques Baud on the next phase of the Russia-Ukraine war and new allegations that the US and UK undermined a peace deal that could have ended it.​The West’s aim “is not the victory of Ukraine, It’s the defeat of Russia,” Baud says. “The problem is that nobody cares about Ukraine. We have just instrumentalized Ukraine for the purpose of US strategic interests — not even European interests.”

*Guest:* Jacques Baud. Former intelligence officer with the Swiss Strategic Intelligence Service who has served in a number of senior security and advisory positions at NATO, the United Nations, and with the Swiss military.

*Corrections*:


In his Sept. 21 speech, Putin did not make an explicit threat to use nuclear weapons. He vowed to “make use of all weapon systems available to us,” in the event of “a threat to the territorial integrity of our country and to defend Russia and our people.”
On nuclear weapons, the US did not have a “No First Use” policy. On the 2020 campaign trail, Joe Biden said that he supported the idea of “No First Use.” He abandoned that in his presidential nuclear posture; but that was reversing his campaign stance, not official US policy.

US, UK sabotaged peace deal because they 'don't care about Ukraine': fmr. NATO adviser - The Grayzone


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Who gives a fuck who’s worse?  Their war is none of the USG’s fucking business.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually. This war is a great thing for the USG. First. We weaken an enemy of peace and international cooperation. Second. We expose for all to see the Russian weakness and solidify our partners and alliances. Third we are given a great test Ed for our weapons systems to show how great they are which will increase demand for them among the same partners and allied nations. 

All of those are good things. And lastly. We can end for the next two generations the threat of Russian Expansionism. I won’t even dream of it being forever. But it will last for a long time.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> ... In my opinion ...



Aha ... I do not have any opiions about this because I know nothing about. But I guess I know that Putin sells Russia to China. And if Xi-Jinping again will become leader of China then I will ask myselve what had happened with the far east wisdom.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Actually. This war is a great thing for the USG. First. We weaken an enemy of peace and international cooperation. Second. We expose for all to see the Russian weakness and solidify our partners and alliances. Third we are given a great test Ed for our weapons systems to show how great they are which will increase demand for them among the same partners and allied nations.
> 
> All of those are good things. And lastly. We can end for the next two generations the threat of Russian Expansionism. I won’t even dream of it being forever. But it will last for a long time.


Except almost none of that is happening. We are weakening ourselves and Europe. Russia has not been exposed. Testing of weapons likely fails too, since Ukes don’t know how to use them or they get sold on the black market or the Russians destroy them before they reach the battlefield.

Of course you ignore the terrible harm you support. Typical of chicken hawks. The thousands of Ukrainian women and children you want murdered purely for your bloodlust, or is it ignorance?


----------



## para bellum (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Testing of weapons likely fails too, since Ukes don’t know how to use them or they get sold on the black market or the Russians destroy them before they reach the battlefield.











						Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The 2022 Russian Invasion Of Ukraine
					






					www.oryxspioenkop.com


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

para bellum said:


> Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The 2022 Russian Invasion Of Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We’re told by our media that Russia has no missiles left, yet there was a missile attack today. Makes one think the media can’t be trusted to tell the truth about this war. No?


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> If there is a “Putin's *long history* of killing his political opposition”, there must be a *long list *of names of victims who have been killed in Russia and whose deaths are unresolved.
> 
> And if they have been killed abroad, there must be court decisions confirming that Russia was culpable of these crimes.
> 
> And in this thread, you can find at least *185 *names of victims of political murders in Ukraine whose deaths are – as Ukrainian rules allege – unresolved.


"If" there is a long history of Putin killing his political opposition?  Funny stuff, Dissident!  You KNOW that there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed which tells me your job here is to spread lies.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Odd that the real Nazis in this story are Ukrainian


There are no real Nazis in this story, Frank!  My point was that Putin claiming that he had to invade Ukraine to "protect" ethnic Russians from persecution was the same strategy that Hitler employed to seize territory before the outbreak of WWII.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Except almost none of that is happening. We are weakening ourselves and Europe. Russia has not been exposed. Testing of weapons likely fails too, since Ukes don’t know how to use them or they get sold on the black market or the Russians destroy them before they reach the battlefield.
> 
> Of course you ignore the terrible harm you support. Typical of chicken hawks. The thousands of Ukrainian women and children you want murdered purely for your bloodlust, or is it ignorance?


With all due respect...Russia's military HAS been exposed!


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> ... there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed ...


I repeat once again – if “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” there must be a long list of *NAMES *of these victims.

Firstly, there must a long list of *NAMES *of opposition figures who have been killed in Russia and whose deaths are unresolved.

For example, one cannot include into the list of “Putin’s victims” the lawyer Stanislav Markelov who was shot to death in Moscow in 2009. His murderer – a leading member of Militant Organization of Russian Nationalists (MORN) - *was sentenced to life imprisonment* already in 2011. Another leader of MORN was arrested in Serbia in 2013, deported to Russia and together with two other members of MORN *was sentenced to life imprisonment* too.

Or would you insist that Putin has had killed this lawyer and then allowed the Moscow court to sentence his four killers to life imprisonment? 

Secondly, when “Putin’s victims” have been killed abroad, there must be a *long list of court decisions* confirming that Russia was culpable of these crimes.

If you cannot make such a list of names of “Putin’s victims” yourself, please give a link to a source where these names are listed. But please check this list beforehand. It will be *YOUR *evidence and *YOU *will be responsible for its correctness.

P.S.
And I repeat once again – I have a link to the source where one can find at least *185 *names of victims of political murders in Ukraine whose deaths are – as Ukrainian rules allege – unresolved.


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Don't be the Class Dolt, Frank!  Credible theory?  Putin acted to "save" Russians in Donbass by attacking the rest of Ukraine and slaughtering thousands?  That is exactly the rationale that Hitler used to seize territory before WWII.


Don't you like Hitler anymore? Your space programme was built owing to his scientists, his thugs were instrumental in all your never ending wars with USSR or Russia, cold, proxy or whatever. Shouldn't he be your hero?


----------



## para bellum (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> We’re told by our media that Russia has no missiles left, yet there was a missile attack today. Makes one think the media can’t be trusted to tell the truth about this war. No?


You might have heard that, I haven't. They have used up something like 1800 of the Kalibr/Iskander/KH-101 inventory out of ~2,400 that were available for Ukraine, according to the GSUA. Those estimates are based on the production rate and how long they have been making them, so probably it's not very far off.

They need to reserve some for the NATO or China scenario. The Iranian drones (and now ballistic missiles) support the claims that they have a limited supply of their newer missiles. They are using the drones in lieu, but they are not very effective- more accurate, but less destruction. The repurposing of S-300's and other anti-shipping missiles like KH-55 also speak to a limited supply of newer missiles. Those are not accurate when they are used for ground strike- the seekers cannot differentiate ground targets- they are designed to see ships on open ocean.

I was thinking the other day about Russia's 152mm inventory. I don't know how much stockpile they started out with, but they are looking to North Korea for more. The US and others have been scouring the planet for 152mm ammunition for Ukraine since February- I think that might be a factor for Russia one of these days...


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> Don't you like Hitler anymore? Your space programme was built owing to his scientists, his thugs were instrumental in all your never ending wars with USSR or Russia, cold, proxy or whatever. Shouldn't he be your hero?


What does that drivel even mean?  You believe that at some point I "liked" Adolf Hitler?  What do you base that nonsense on?


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I repeat once again – if “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” there must be a long list of *NAMES *of these victims.
> 
> Firstly, there must a long list of *NAMES *of opposition figures who have been killed in Russia and whose deaths are unresolved.
> 
> ...


Do you really want me to start listing the names of political opponents of Putin that have been murdered?


----------



## alexa (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Here is some good info to help you get informed.
> 
> Former Swiss intelligence officer and NATO adviser Jacques Baud on the next phase of the Russia-Ukraine war and new allegations that the US and UK undermined a peace deal that could have ended it.​The West’s aim “is not the victory of Ukraine, It’s the defeat of Russia,” Baud says. “The problem is that nobody cares about Ukraine. We have just instrumentalized Ukraine for the purpose of US strategic interests — not even European interests.”
> 
> ...


I was listening to Jeffy Sachs talking about the end of the Soviet Union today and he said that the US never felt friendly towards Russia and never wanted to help them.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Do you really want me to start listing the names of political opponents of Putin that have been murdered?



Please read the blue text below



Dissident said:


> I repeat once again – if “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” there must be a long list of *NAMES *of these victims...
> If you cannot make such a list of names of “Putin’s victims” yourself, please give a link to a source where these names are listed. But please check this list beforehand. It will be *YOUR *evidence and *YOU *will be responsible for its correctness.


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 17, 2022)

alexa said:


> I was listening to Jeffy Sachs talking about the end of the Soviet Union today and he said that the US never felt friendly towards Russia and never wanted to help them.



Not true. 

I was in the 82nd Airborne when the wall fell. Almost immediately we had Russian Soldiers there to learn how we trained our Army. There was even a Russian sent to NTC, the premier Army training base. 

We did this to help them make their Army better. Because we wanted them to succeed. 

That isn’t all we did. We funded their scalping of their nuclear fleet that was obsolete and rusting at the piers. This helped the Russians avoid a catastrophe. 

Want more? You got it. We bought rocket engines from Russia. They were pound for pound better than our own. Helping fund their space program and giving jobs to the Russian technicians who built and maintained the engines. 

How about more. American Farming experts went to help the Russians maximize their production of food. For the first time in more than a century Russia was able to feed themselves. 

These are examples. Certainly not a complete list. 

We wanted a strong trading partner. Someone we could work with. And this lasted until Russia began fighting with and conquering their neighbors. Chechnya. Georgia. You know the rest. 

The more aggressive the Russians got. The less we helped them.


----------



## alexa (Oct 17, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Not true.




Oh it was true. 


SavannahMann said:


> I was in the 82nd Airborne when the wall fell. Almost immediately we had Russian Soldiers there to learn how we trained our Army. There was even a Russian sent to NTC, the premier Army training base.
> 
> We did this to help them make their Army better. Because we wanted them to succeed.
> 
> ...


Means nothing.  He was the economist and he said they did not want to help Russia.  We are all aware that Russia really suffered economically when the Soviet Union ended.  You may have liked them, other people will have been nosy and want to help them.  At the time I though everyone wanted to help them.  Then I got the idea they were being looted but what he was saying sounded very plausible and about helping Russia economically he said the US did not want to help Russia at all.
You seem to be missing the first few years when Russia could have been helped.


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> What does that drivel even mean?  You believe that at some point I "liked" Adolf Hitler?  What do you base that nonsense on?


The more I interact with you the more I'm assured every other american is an idiot. Is there a hope that the non-idiot half will overcome some day?


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 17, 2022)

SavannahMann said:


> Not true.
> 
> I was in the 82nd Airborne when the wall fell. Almost immediately we had Russian Soldiers there to learn how we trained our Army. There was even a Russian sent to NTC, the premier Army training base.
> 
> ...


Where do you hide those wings I wonder? I bet they are huge, judging by the list of angelical deeds you've bestowed upon us.


----------



## BackAgain (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


Or — and follow along here - we might just ask, “which nation’s military invaded the other sovereign nation despite zero military actions against the invader before that invasion?”

If you said “Russia,” then we have the answer. Yes indeed. Ukraine didn’t invade any part of Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Yes indeed. Ukraine didn’t invade any part of Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine.


Iraq did not invade any part of the U.S. in 2003.
The U.S. invaded Iraq because Iraq allegedly had weapons of mass destruction.
However, after the U.S. occupied Iraq, they never found any weapons of mass destruction there.


----------



## BackAgain (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Iraq did not invade any part of the U.S. in 2003.
> The U.S. invaded Iraq because Iraq allegedly had weapons of mass destruction.
> However, after the U.S. occupied Iraq, they never found any weapons of mass destruction there.


Zzzz. Thanks for the unasked for and irrelevant history lesson.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

alexa said:


> I was listening to Jeffy Sachs talking about the end of the Soviet Union today and he said that the US never felt friendly towards Russia and never wanted to help them.


The MIC needs a bogieman to keep the enormous wealth coming in. It‘s Russia and China now, but just a few years ago it was radical Islam and before that the Cold War.

The US is warlike nation. For nearly its entire existence, it’s been at war. Somehow the Founders vision of cooperation with all nations and a policy of nonintervention has been ignored.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Zzzz. Thanks for the unasked for and irrelevant history lesson.


But it does prove you’re a hypocrite, like most Americans.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> With all due respect...Russia's military HAS been exposed!


Yet Putin intends to conquer all of Europe. So we must give billions in weapons to Ukraine to fight him over there rather than here. He’s a mad man too, but we’re assured he’d NEVER use nukes.

Do you see a pattern YET?


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> Is that how you lull yourself into thinking that Russia will lose? By watching CNN, BBC and other bullshitters you have plenty of and bandying about that with your equally delusional assholes of forummites? You know it'll never happen. Ukraine have lost and "progressive" world's help will just prolong its agony a little, nothing more. You better address that part of your brain that's still adjustable and warm it up to the fact so that the final demise of your beloved Banderastan does not hurt that much.



Alexander, do you know how to do basic math?

Take the number of Russian (poorly motivated) soldiers going to Ukraine and compare it to number of Ukranian (highly motivated) soldiers.
Then take the number of Russian weapon production and compare it to NATO weapon production.

Russia had the initiative on it's side when they invaded, but all that is long gone and Russian forces have done nothing but lost ground in the last two months.







The end game is not very complicated - IT'S BASIC MATH.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Very suspicious no?


No dummy, when Russia has nothing acceptable to offer negotiating with them is a waste of time.

Ukraine needs to deal with Putin the only way he understands being dealt with. His army needs to be broken in the east, then maybe there would be something to talk about.


----------



## alexa (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Alexander, do you know how to do basic math?
> 
> Take the number of Russian (poorly motivated) soldiers going to Ukraine and compare it to number of Ukranian (highly motivated) soldiers.
> Then take the number of Russian weapon production and compare it to NATO weapon production.
> ...


If Russia did decide to wave the white flag, what will happen to them. (They have said they never will) xso it will have to be if Russia clearly cannot fight any more and is not trying to, what will happen to them?


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

alexa said:


> If Russia did decide to wave the white flag, what will happen to them. (They have said they never will) xso it will have to be if Russia clearly cannot fight any more and is not trying to, what will happen to them?


They tuck their tail in, roll up whats left of their army and go do some thinking and cleaning at home.


----------



## alexa (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> They tuck their tail in, roll up whats left of their army and go do some thinking and cleaning at home.


so you will just leave them and get on with your lives?


----------



## AlexanderPK (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Alexander, do you know how to do basic math?
> 
> Take the number of Russian (poorly motivated) soldiers going to Ukraine and compare it to number of Ukranian (highly motivated) soldiers.
> Then take the number of Russian weapon production and compare it to NATO weapon production.
> ...


Funny seeing an idiot palavoring about math. I bet you use your calculator when asked to multiply two by two.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

alexa said:


> so you will just leave them and get on with your lives?


Umm yea.

The west would love nothing more than to never hear of Russia again. Had enough of their bullshit for a lifetime.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

AlexanderPK said:


> Funny seeing an idiot palavoring about math. I bet you use your calculator when asked to multiply two by two.


Thats it? 

Sad.


----------



## alexa (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Umm yea.
> 
> The west would love nothing more than to never hear of Russia again. Had enough of their bullshit for a lifetime.


'The West' is going to be very different in a few years and it is more than possible that Europe will be integrated with China and Russia.  Your time is up.  This is your Suez.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> No dummy, when Russia has nothing acceptable to offer negotiating with them is a waste of time.
> 
> Ukraine needs to deal with Putin the only way he understands being dealt with. His army needs to be broken in the east, then maybe there would be something to talk about.


You’re terribly naive and a warmonger. Ukraine can’t win. Your thinking only results in lots of dead women and children.

 Stop being stupid.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

alexa said:


> 'The West' is going to be very different in a few years and it is more than possible that Europe will be integrated with China and Russia.  Your time is up.  This is your Suez.


When is few years? by 2025?

I just want to get a date when you will be conclusively proven to be full of fantastical bs.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Ukraine can’t win.


Basic math says otherwise.

Ukraine has a bigger, better motivated, better trained, better armed forces.

How exactly does Russia win?


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> The end game is not very complicated - IT'S BASIC MATH.


Why should we know your speculations “about the end”?

All of us shall of course know results at the end of this conflict.

And it has no sense to discuss now somebody’s speculations in this thread.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Oct 17, 2022)

zaangalewa said:


> For idiots! The Ukrainians voted in the last elections for a Jew. So the most Ukrainians are not Nazis and gave a clear signal against Nazism. And in all countries of the world exist some Nazis - in most cases they are only some frustrated members of a sub-culture and like to provoke.


Wait, Zelen$ky is a Jew, therefore Azov aren’t Nazis?

Soros is a Jew and he LOVED working with Nazis


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Wait, Zelen$ky is a Jew, therefore Azov aren’t Nazis?


What governing function does Azov have? They were ~1000 grunts assimulated by Ukranian Force command and about 20% of them were self-identifying as Nazis.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

This thread is about "Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?" (please see its title).

If you want to discuss a (probable) outcome of this conflict, you can create a separate thread about its (probable) outcome.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

Dissident said:


> This thread is about "Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?" (please see its title).
> 
> If you want to discuss a (probable) outcome of this conflict, you can create a separate thread about its (probable) outcome.



Ok, Ukraine was not a threat to Russia.

It was a threat to Putin, because if it successfully rejected Russia and intergrated into EU the way of Poland then Russia and other states would be next. Putin's place in history at that point would be that of backward autocrat who held Russia back for decades.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yet Putin intends to conquer all of Europe. So we must give billions in weapons to Ukraine to fight him over there rather than here. He’s a mad man too, but we’re assured he’d NEVER use nukes.
> 
> Do you see a pattern YET?


Putin intends to reconstitute the former Soviet Union under Russian control.  He threatens to use nukes because his conventional forces are getting their asses handed to them and he realizes that he's put himself in a dangerous position.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Basic math says otherwise.
> 
> Ukraine has a bigger, better motivated, better trained, better armed forces.
> 
> How exactly does Russia win?


Dream on doofus.

All they want is no NATO and Donbas and Crimea are Russian. If you don’t know that by now, you’re an idiot. Russia pretty much has what they want already.

Why did the west stop the peace talks in April?


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Putin intends to reconstitute the former Soviet Union under Russian control.  He threatens to use nukes because his conventional forces are getting their asses handed to them and he realizes that he's put himself in a dangerous position.


Lol. You think Russia’s army is entirely incapable, yet Putin intends to get back the USSR empire. You fail to see how ignorant that is. He’s in no danger but Ukrainians are, thanks to idiots like you.


----------



## BackAgain (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> But it does prove you’re a hypocrite, like most Americans.


No. It doesn’t. It’s unrelated and a false analogy anyway. 

And gimp, your idiocy is noted.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> What governing function does Azov have? They were ~1000 grunts assimulated by Ukranian Force command and about 20% of them were self-identifying as Nazis.


They control Z. He knows if he doesn’t do as he’s told by your Nazi buddies, he’s a dead man. Z is a little trained dog for the Nazis.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> No. It doesn’t. It’s unrelated and a false analogy anyway.
> 
> And gimp, your idiocy is noted.


Hahahahahahahaha.  It’s a perfect analogy, but I'm not surprised you don’t get it.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 17, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Putin intends to reconstitute the former Soviet Union under Russian control.  He threatens to use nukes because his conventional forces are getting their asses handed to them and he realizes that he's put himself in a dangerous position.



*Oldestyle*

Six hours ago, after your words “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” I asked you to present “a long list of *NAMES *of these killed political opponents”, see my post.
Or, at least, to present a link under which we can see such a list.

Have you suddenly lost interest in the discussion about the long list of “Putin’s victims” after my request? 🙂

As I see, you are now much more interested in discussion about reconstitution of the former Soviet Union.


----------



## BackAgain (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Hahahahahahahaha.  It’s a perfect analogy, but I'm not surprised you don’t get it.


Lol!  It is a meaningless analogy and I’m unsurprised that you buy it.  Your a gullible little tool. You’re a useful idiot.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

BackAgain said:


> Lol!  It is a meaningless analogy and I’m unsurprised that you buy it.  Your a gullible little tool. You’re a useful idiot.


Dumb Americans like you are overt hypocrites, yet you’re entirely unaware.

Are you demented like dumb Joe?


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> They control Z. He knows if he doesn’t do as he’s told by your Nazi buddies, he’s a dead man.



...so Putin and his elite squads coudn't kill Zelenskiy, but a handful of country-side Azovs can?

What makes you think (I'm being generous here) that it's not just a fantasy in your head?


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> ...so Putin and his elite squads coudn't kill Zelenskiy, but a handful of country-side Azovs can?
> 
> What makes you think (I'm being generous here) that it's not just a fantasy in your head?


 I’ve given you numerous links proving Nazis have considerable power in your beloved Ukraine. It was well known and reported long before this war, that Uke has a Nazi problem.

Can you answer this question?
*Why did the west stop the peace talks in April?*


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> I’ve given you numerous links proving Nazis have considerable power in your beloved Ukraine.


Thats a joke. You can't even name one high level politician to be Nazi.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> It was well known and reported long before this war


It was never "known" or reported that Azovs have any control over Zelensky's administration.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> It was never reported that Azovs have any control over Zelensky's administration.


Even dumb Don is smarter than you.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Thats a joke. You can't even name one high level politician to be Nazi.


Doesn’t matter.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Even dumb Don is smarter than you.



What did I tell you about quoting me without addressing anything I've said?

Concentrate and put togather some sort of coherent argument. Double dare you.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Doesn’t matter.


Of course inconvinient facts don't matter to you, if they did you wouldn't be posting your half-baked bullshit.

There is no reason to think there are any Nazis in Zelensky's administration or congress and there is no reason to take seriously your tales about a handfull of country-side grunts having any actual political power.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> What did I tell you about quoting me without addressing anything I've said?
> 
> Concentrate and put togather some sort of coherent argument. Double dare you.


JFK is exponentially smarter than you.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Of course inconvinient facts don't matter to you, if they did you wouldn't be posting your half-baked bullshit.


Do you really think in a military dictatorship, where the military is full of Nazis, the military has no power?


----------



## para bellum (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> *Why did the west stop the peace talks in April?*


It's not up to the west. You have this idea that Russia should negotiate with the "west", and we should then pressure Ukraine to surrender. And oh by the way, the land is not negotiable in these co called "negotiations", and Russia gets a veto on who can or can't join NATO...

Yeah sure. Fuck that. Putin started this war, Putin can end it any time he wants to. 

But he can't do that now can he? He boxed himself in with his sham referendums. He told the Russian people that those lands are forever part of Russia now. No one from the west is going to negotiate away Ukraine's sovereignty or internationally recognized borders just to appease Putin.

And if Ukraine wants to defend their country, we are free to help them- just as anyone can help Russia if they want. Like Iran and Belarus are doing right now. If Ukraine wants to negotiate, they will let us know.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Do you really think in a military dictatorship, where the military is full of Nazis, the military has no power?


Millitary full of Nazis? Where did you get such stupid nonsense?

Azov battalion was ~1000 men, 20% of who self-identified as Nazis. So thats 200 out of 200,000 Ukranian forces.  

There is ZERO evidence Zelensky is not the real leader of Ukraine and a Commander-in-Chief of his armed forces.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

para bellum said:


> Russia gets a veto on who can or can't join NATO...


No it doesn't, it's not part of NATO. 

It's part of United Nations.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Millitary full of Nazis? Where did you get such stupid nonsense?
> 
> Azov battalion was ~1000 men, 20% of who self-identified as Nazis. So thats 200 out of 200,000 Ukranian forces.
> 
> There is ZERO evidence Zelensky is not the real leader of Ukraine and a Commander-in-Chief of his armed forces.


Read the links I sent you. Don’t be dumb FOREVER!


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

para bellum said:


> It's not up to the west. You have this idea that Russia should negotiate with the "west", and we should then pressure Ukraine to surrender. And oh by the way, the land is not negotiable in these co called "negotiations", and Russia gets a veto on who can or can't join NATO...
> 
> Yeah sure. Fuck that. Putin started this war, Putin can end it any time he wants to.
> 
> ...


Why would the west prevent peace in Ukraine?


----------



## para bellum (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> No it doesn't, it's not part of NATO.
> 
> It's part of United Nations.


That is one of Russia's demands. He wants a guarantee that Ukraine will never be part of Russia, and that NATO remove all bases from members who joined the alliance after 1991, and a guarantee from NATO  not to admit any more former WarPac countries. IOW, he is demanding a veto right on NATO membership.

I didn't say it was justified. It's obviously not for Russia to dictate what alliances a sovereign nation makes or doesn't make, or what NATO members do or don't do.

The idea that Putin can negotiate Ukraine's future with the west, and rely on us to coerce Ukraine to give up territory is a non-starter, as are any demands relating to NATO membership.

Ukraine has internationally recognized borders, and that is what the vast majority of nations recognize as Ukraine's sovereign territory. Putin cannot backtrack and give up the annexed land- he has promised the Russian people that those areas are part of Russia forever.

The International community cannot and will not recognize the annexed land as Russian territory. Impasse, no negotiations are possible.


----------



## para bellum (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Why would the west prevent peace in Ukraine?


Stop lying. The west was not given a vote. 

Putin made the decision to go to war, and Ukraine chose to fight back. The west came to Ukraine's aid after they defeated the Russian army in the Battle of Kiev.

Your definition of "preventing peace" is nothing more than the west should have rejected Ukraine's pleas for help. Peace is not what you want- you want submission.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

para bellum said:


> That is one of Russia's demands. He wants a guarantee that Ukraine will never be part of Russia, and that NATO remove all bases from members who joined the alliance after 1991


Well we'll see what their demands are after they get knocked the f out of Ukraine.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

para bellum said:


> The idea that Putin can negotiate Ukraine's future with the west, and rely on us to coerce Ukraine to give up territory is a non-starter, as are any demands relating to NATO membership.


I think there is a reasonable chance NATO would push Ukraine to give up Crimea if Russia agrees to give up it's other demands and withdraws from the east.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

para bellum said:


> Stop lying. The west was not given a vote.
> 
> Putin made the decision to go to war, and Ukraine chose to fight back. The west came to Ukraine's aid after they defeated the Russian army in the Battle of Kiev.
> 
> Your definition of "preventing peace" is nothing more than the west should have rejected Ukraine's pleas for help. Peace is not what you want- you want submission.


You’re not informed. Get informed before posting.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> I think there is a reasonable chance NATO would push Ukraine to give up Crimea if Russia agrees to give up it's other demands and withdraws from the east.


It’s falling apart for you warmongering baby killers.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> It’s falling apart for you warmongering baby killers.


How many decades have you been running with that bullshit line for? 

Don't lie now.


----------



## gipper (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> How many decades have you been running with that bs for? Don't lie now.


It’s coming apart. Warmonger!  Down with Ukraine!


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> It’s coming apart. Warmonger!  Down with Ukraine!


Macrone has just won re-election for another 5 year term and majority of French support millitary aid to Ukraine.

So what is it you think some demostrations will do for your Russian fantasies?


----------



## para bellum (Oct 17, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Well we'll see what their demands are after they get knocked the f out of Ukraine.


I don't know Anton, I heard right here on this board that it was going to be over in 120 days with a total victory for Russia.

Flying T-14's armed with hypersonic missiles maybe? I can't prove they _don't_ have those, can you?


----------



## BackAgain (Oct 17, 2022)

gipper said:


> Dumb Americans like you are overt hypocrites, yet you’re entirely unaware.
> 
> Are you demented like dumb Joe?


Shitheads like you think youre smart and clever; and you’re too fucking stupid to realize that you’re nothing more than a shithead. 

Try to follow along little retard. We aren’t talking about what America has done, right or wrong. We still have zero ability to undue the past, you imbecile. 

We were addressing Russia and Ukraine. 

And the shit you’re  babbling about is irrelevant to that conversation.


----------



## zaangalewa (Oct 18, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Wait, Zelen$ky is a Jew, therefore Azov aren’t Nazis?
> 
> Soros is a Jew and he LOVED working with Nazis



Don't worry werewolf. If I will have to kill you then I will not use a silver bullet but my bullshit canon for many nice freckles asking you in a million brown tones: How for heavens sake are you able to take yourselve serios?


----------



## SavannahMann (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> Oh it was true.
> 
> Means nothing.  He was the economist and he said they did not want to help Russia.  We are all aware that Russia really suffered economically when the Soviet Union ended.  You may have liked them, other people will have been nosy and want to help them.  At the time I though everyone wanted to help them.  Then I got the idea they were being looted but what he was saying sounded very plausible and about helping Russia economically he said the US did not want to help Russia at all.
> You seem to be missing the first few years when Russia could have been helped.



Russia was helped. 

That’s what I am saying. I was in the 82nd Airborne from 89 to 93. 

Very early. The Rocket Engines I mentioned were being bought and tested within months of the collapse. 

Within a year Farm experts were there to help the farmers. It was across the board. Aeroflot pilots were brought west and trained in modern western aircraft. Financing and leasing agreements were made to allow Aeroflot to begin serious international transport routes. Airline experts showed up to show the Russians how to compete and play internationally. 

Work began on the ISS almost immediately. With a lot of funding from us. 

Yes it was difficult. And it was going to be. Nothing could change that. It was going to be a massive change in everything in every aspect of their lives. 

Everyone in the Soviet Union was technically a government employee. It was never going to be an overnight quick fix. It was going to take time. Time for private businesses to get started. 

McDonalds moved in immediately. And many other companies all offering jobs and economic prospects as well as services and products. 

The change from one social, political, and economic system to another was never going to be fast. It couldn’t be. 

The west poured money into the nation. We bought lots of things from military hardware to Russian clothing. The effort was to minimize the pain. To help speed the transition to a better system. 

So why would the Russians gravitate towards a strong man dictator instead of a democratically based representation system? The answer is history. 

From the time of the Czar it has been the same for the people. The local government officials were appointed. They did what they were told to do. If you had an issue you ignored it until Moscow told the locals what to do about it. 

The only real change from Czarist to Soviet was the people calling the shots. Instead of divine right of Kings it was party purity that decided it. 

The Russian people didn’t have time to adapt to the idea that local governments were able to deal with local problems. 

The changes made by Yeltsin took time to take effect. Let’s use an example for a moment. Let’s say that right now. Today. Biden opens up every square inch of land and ocean to drilling for oil. 

It would have no immediate effect. It would take months to even start to drill, and a couple years before any significant amount of oil started to flow. 

It takes time for the changes to take effect. And by the time these changes started to take effect another was in charge. 

It is an unusual leader who is willing to invest the time needed for changes or programs that won’t have any effect while they are in office. Think of JFK. There was no way that JFK would see the fruit of the Lunar Landing challenge as President. Best will in the world he would be a former President even if he managed to get his full eight years in office. The next guy would get the limelight. 

Since JFK we have not seen a national priority which would not pay off in a couple years max. 

Putin used language the people were familiar with. And promised the good parts they had known. Security. Stability. The people thought they would get this with some of the new good. And freedoms. The variety. 

It wasn’t that we didn’t try to help the Russians. It was that it wasn’t a single thing that needed changing. It was literally everything that needed changing. Political. Social. Economic. Medical. Education. And on down the line. Each was interwoven with the others. And the changes would take a while before people got used to them.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Of course inconvinient facts don't matter to you, if they did you wouldn't be posting your half-baked bullshit.
> 
> There is no reason to think there are any Nazis in Zelensky's administration or congress and there is no reason to take seriously your tales about a handfull of country-side grunts having any actual political power.


It depends on what you personally understand under a “Nazi”.

If, in your opinion, a Nazi is a person *who has a swastika tattoo on his forehead*, I must admit that I personally have not seen persons with such tattoos in Ukrainian government or Ukrainian parliament.

But I haven’t seen persons with such tattoos in government of Nazi Germany too.

But if we understand under Nazis persons who - t*hrough legislation* – divide ethnic minorities of their country in first-grade people, second-grade people and third-grade, the majority of Ukrainian parliament are Nazis in this case (please see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?)

And in this case, the Ukrainian President Zelensky - whose Jewish origin has constantly been repeated in this thread - is a Nazi too. Since he, for example, signed Ukrainian Law on Secondary Education in 2020 and this Law divides Ukrainian ethnic minorities in the above-mentioned way.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. You think Russia’s army is entirely incapable, yet Putin intends to get back the USSR empire. You fail to see how ignorant that is. He’s in no danger but Ukrainians are, thanks to idiots like you.


Putin's intention was to seize Ukraine and install a puppet government.  That intention was blown up when his military was shown to be far less proficient than it was believed to be!  What military experts were saying at the beginning of the invasion would take only weeks has not happened at all and now Putin has real opposition in Russia...something that didn't exist before.


----------



## gipper (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Putin's intention was to seize Ukraine and install a puppet government.  That intention was blown up when his military was shown to be far less proficient than it was believed to be!  What military experts were saying at the beginning of the invasion would take only weeks has not happened at all and now Putin has real opposition in Russia...something that didn't exist before.


Probably all wrong. He has little opposition at home. Your just regurgitating MSM talking points.

The west  provoked this war and is prolonging it. They don’t even hide their motives, but you don’t know. 

The problem is and it’s a problem you don’t consider, this war is killing lots of Ukrainian civilians women and children NEEDLESSLY. 

Why did the west shit can peace talks in April?


----------



## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

para bellum said:


> I don't know Anton, I heard right here on this board that it was going to be over in 120 days with a total victory for Russia.
> 
> Flying T-14's armed with hypersonic missiles maybe? I can't prove they _don't_ have those, can you?


I read they used hypersonic in Syria.  The flying T-14's were only supposed to go into production this year so assuming they needed some imports for them, they would not have been made yet.  there is something strange about this.  I don't understand why Russia would invade Ukraine when it wasn't sure it had enough weapons to do so and with the sanctions was not going to be able to get them.  Then I remember reading the US asking how they had been so wrong that they had expected Russia to have a vast amount of good weapons when they were seen to just have a few which were quickly dealt with.

I guess there are two possibilities now.

Russia did expect things to be easy on entering Ukraine and left most at home.  They will come back when Russia comes back
or
Russia cannot invade Ukraine successfully because it does not have the weapons.  If they cannot invade Ukraine then I would imagine they cannot defend Russia.  What happens then?


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

gipper said:


> Probably all wrong. He has little opposition at home. Your just regurgitating MSM talking points.
> 
> The west  provoked this war and is prolonging it. They don’t even hide their motives, but you don’t know.
> 
> ...


Putin's always had little opposition at home because he's quashed any opposition by either having it killed or imprisoned.  Let's be quite clear...Putin rules by means of fear.  He controls the military and the Secret Police.  He's been supported by the Oligarchs because he makes them wealthy.  Now his little escapade into Ukraine has decimated the military and it's caused the Oligarchs to lose millions.  That makes Putin vulnerable.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I read they used hypersonic in Syria.  The flying T-14's were only supposed to go into production this year so assuming they needed some imports for them, they would not have been made yet.  there is something strange about this.  I don't understand why Russia would invade Ukraine when it wasn't sure it had enough weapons to do so and with the sanctions was not going to be able to get them.  Then I remember reading the US asking how they had been so wrong that they had expected Russia to have a vast amount of good weapons when they were seen to just have a few which were quickly dealt with.
> 
> I guess there are two possibilities now.
> 
> ...


The Russian people will always defend Russia, Alexa.  You can see that historically.  Russians defend the Homeland like the Ukrainians now defend Ukraine.  That doesn't mean the average Russian is willing to die to support Putin's dream of reconstituting the old Russian Empire.  That is the difference in this current war.  Russian troops simply don't want to risk their lives fighting for something like Russian expansion.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> *Oldestyle*
> 
> Six hours ago, after your words “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” I asked you to present “a long list of *NAMES *of these killed political opponents”, see my post.
> Or, at least, to present a link under which we can see such a list.
> ...


Anyone that won't admit that Putin DOES have a long list of political enemies that he's either killed or imprisoned isn't honest enough to have a debate with, Dissident!  You're an obvious Russian troll.  Why would anyone waste their time with you?


----------



## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> When is few years? by 2025?
> 
> I just want to get a date when you will be conclusively proven to be full of fantastical bs.


It's what I hear and if Europe's Gas was destroyed by the US I would think likely.  You cannot make allies with someone who will hit you when you are down and then sell you what they have taken by something 4 times the cost on which they are making massive profits.  You just do not do to allies what the US may have done.
There appears to be a lot of talk in Europe about its success being linked to Russia.
There is a talk that Germany at least is finished.

Now I told you it was not impossible that Europewould be integrated with China and Russia in the future and you are asking me for a date.  Who would give a date for something which may or may not happen but
without energy at a decent price Europe will have to deindustrialise.  People are saying it will be like 3rd world land.  Do you really think they would choose that if they had an alternative.  This would be to Putin's liking.  He went with Dugin's plan which was to take all of Europe except the UK and to give Germany and France special powers within.  Who knows.

Alternatively Europe will have sufficient green energy and be able to be independent of both yourselves and Russia.

Russia and China have their money now on the Gold Standard and will announce moving away from the dollar soon.  The US days are over.  I


----------



## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> The Russian people will always defend Russia, Alexa.  You can see that historically.  Russians defend the Homeland like the Ukrainians now defend Ukraine.  That doesn't mean the average Russian is willing to die to support Putin's dream of reconstituting the old Russian Empire.  That is the difference in this current war.  Russian troops simply don't want to risk their lives fighting for something like Russian expansion.


You're missing my point.  Russia would appear at the moment not to have the military weapons needed to beat Ukraine. This would be due to sanctions.  Now she may have them and come back with them.  However if Russia does not have these weapons and cannot get a cease fire  then she also will not have them to protect Russia.  What happens with Russia.  You can no more protect your country with farm utensils and old guns than you can beat the Ukranian army with same.  What happens to Russia if she does not have the weapons to attack Ukraine and protect herself?


----------



## gipper (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Putin's always had little opposition at home because he's quashed any opposition by either having it killed or imprisoned.  Let's be quite clear...Putin rules by means of fear.  He controls the military and the Secret Police.  He's been supported by the Oligarchs because he makes them wealthy.  Now his little escapade into Ukraine has decimated the military and it's caused the Oligarchs to lose millions.  That makes Putin vulnerable.


You just said he has real opposition at home, now this. WTF?  Are you demented like old Joe?

Yeah his military is decimated. Lol. You’ll believe anything the western press tell you.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> It's what I hear and if Europe's Gas was destroyed by the US I would think likely.  You cannot make allies with someone who will hit you when you are down and then sell you what they have taken by something 4 times the cost on which they are making massive profits.  You just do not do to allies what the US may have done.
> There appears to be a lot of talk in Europe about its success being linked to Russia.
> There is a talk that Germany at least is finished.
> 
> ...


How did the US "destroy" Europe's natural gas, Alexa?  With all due respect, Europe made the choice to put their natural gas "eggs" in Russia's "basket"!  They were warned by Trump that was the wrong decision but did so anyways.  Now Putin has the economic power to hurt Europe and he's employing that power.  The simple truth is that you're not even close to being self sufficient with "green energy" and your leaders SHOULD have known they were putting themselves at risk!


----------



## Dissident (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Anyone that won't admit that Putin DOES have a long list of political enemies that he's either killed or imprisoned isn't honest enough to have a debate with, Dissident!  You're an obvious Russian troll.  Why would anyone waste their time with you?


Anyone, who says that “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” and afterwards refuses to present “a long list of *NAMES *of these killed political opponents”, is a liar.

You cannot even give a link to a source where we could see such a list. 

You are not honest enough to have a debate with!

Why would anyone waste their time with you?


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> You're missing my point.  Russia would appear at the moment not to have the military weapons needed to beat Ukraine. This would be due to sanctions.  Now she may have them and come back with them.  However if Russia does not have these weapons and cannot get a cease fire  then she also will not have them to protect Russia.  What happens with Russia.  You can no more protect your country with farm utensils and old guns than you can beat the Ukranian army with same.  What happens to Russia if she does not have the weapons to attack Ukraine and protect herself?


What sanctions have hurt Russia?

The Russian military is still powerful, Alexa but having weapons doesn't mean you have the will to fight.  Russian troops aren't willing to give up their lives to get Ukraine for Putin.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't fight to the death to defend Russia.  They always have.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

gipper said:


> You just said he has real opposition at home, now this. WTF?  Are you demented like old Joe?
> 
> Yeah his military is decimated. Lol. You’ll believe anything the western press tell you.


You don't have to be a genius to figure out that the Russians are taking huge losses in Ukraine, Gipper!  They've made that rather obvious when they're forced to call up 300,000 conscripts.  Duh?


----------



## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> What sanctions have hurt Russia?
> 
> The Russian military is still powerful, Alexa but having weapons doesn't mean you have the will to fight.  Russian troops aren't willing to give up their lives to get Ukraine for Putin.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't fight to the death to defend Russia.  They always have.


I understand that the reason why Russia has not been issuing and using good weapons is because sanctions have stopped her being able to get material to repair them or get new ones,


----------



## Dissident (Oct 18, 2022)

*gipper *and *alexa*

For what reason do you quote posts of Oldestyle and answer to them?

It’s obvious that *this person constantly lies*.

When I caught him lying (e.g. here), he presented his next lie (e.g.here), and so on.

It has really no sense to discuss anything with such a person.


----------



## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I understand that the reason why Russia has not been issuing and using good weapons is because sanctions have stopped her being able to get material to repair them or get new ones,


Do you really think that Russia has run out of "good weapons" in this short amount of time, Alexa?  Or do you think that just might be an excuse that Putin supporters have fallen back on to somehow explain why the Russian military won't fight for Putin?
Are they running low on their Cruise missiles and other long range artillery shells?  Probably but that's because they've been getting their asses kicked when they fight the Ukrainians at close range.  They're running low on those long range weapons because they've been forced to try and pound Ukraine from afar and make them surrender.  It's a strategy that isn't working.


----------



## gipper (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> How did the US "destroy" Europe's natural gas, Alexa?  With all due respect, Europe made the choice to put their natural gas "eggs" in Russia's "basket"!  They were warned by Trump that was the wrong decision but did so anyways.  Now Putin has the economic power to hurt Europe and he's employing that power.  The simple truth is that you're not even close to being self sufficient with "green energy" and your leaders SHOULD have known they were putting themselves at risk!


So you think the US should control Europe’s energy needs.

You must admit to being an imperialist.


----------



## gipper (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> You don't have to be a genius to figure out that the Russians are taking huge losses in Ukraine, Gipper!  They've made that rather obvious when they're forced to call up 300,000 conscripts.  Duh?


HUGE LOSSES. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. What a dupe.

We have no way of knowing the truth of what is happening on the battlefield. 

We do know the western media lies though…well maybe you dont, but informed people do.


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## gipper (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> *gipper *and *alexa*
> 
> For what reason do you quote posts of Oldestyle and answer to them?
> 
> ...


Agreed. Not only does he lie often, but he’s obviously completely uninformed.


----------



## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Do you really think that Russia has run out of "good weapons" in this short amount of time, Alexa?


I was listening to something on Youtube which suggested this and rightwinger wrote something in a thread which suggested this so I asked and they confirmed that the sanctions had stopped Russia from being able to perform.

Now if you go back to my original post I said that was one possibility and I wanted to know what people thought would happen to Russia if she had to give up on Ukraine and wasn't able to protect Russia.  Ukraine refuses all peace talks .  However the other thing I thought was a possibility was that Russia had not as yet shown her good weapons.  If she has them then I suspect we have not yet seen Russia fighting.



Oldestyle said:


> Or do you think that just might be an excuse that Putin supporters have fallen back on to somehow explain why the Russian military won't fight for Putin?



No they all denied it.


Oldestyle said:


> Are they running low on their Cruise missiles and other long range artillery shells?  Probably but that's because they've been getting their asses kicked when they fight the Ukrainians at close range.  They're running low on those long range weapons because they've been forced to try and pound Ukraine from afar and make them surrender.  It's a strategy that isn't working.



According to what I heard they only have 20,000 Iranian drones.  This idea though isn't new.  Everyone is going on about Russia having no decent weapons.  I just wanted to see where people thought on this one.  I also wanted to know for my own thinking.  If Russia does not have a major problem with weapons then we haven't seen Russia fighting yet.  Ukraine should negotiate.


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> It's what I hear and if Europe's Gas was destroyed by the US I would think likely.  You cannot make allies with someone who will hit you when you are down and then sell you what they have taken by something 4 times the cost on which they are making massive profits.  You just do not do to allies what the US may have done.
> There appears to be a lot of talk in Europe about its success being linked to Russia.
> There is a talk that Germany at least is finished.
> 
> ...


These things may make sense to you, but to me they read like ignorant stream of mind ramblings.

Just cut the shit and make a TESTABLE PREDICTION, which will show you and me how connected to reality whats going on in your head is.

By 2025 "it all falls apart for the west" - yes or no?


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## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> These things may make sense to you, but to me they read like ignorant stream of mind ramblings.


[/QUOTE]

I get that you must know nothing about this as with other things.  No surprise there but you should learn to look in the mirror.


AntonToo said:


> Just cut the shit and make a TESTABLE PREDICTION, which will show you and me how connected to reality whats going on in your head is.
> 
> By 2025 "it all falls apart for the west" - yes or no?


You do not control me.  I said possibility not definite.  You need to learn to read.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

gipper said:


> So you think the US should control Europe’s energy needs.
> 
> You must admit to being an imperialist.


I think Europe had a choice between relying on the US for its natural gas or relying on Vladimir Putin for its natural gas.  They chose Putin.  So how is that working out for them?  Duh?


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> It depends on what you personally understand under a “Nazi”.
> 
> If, in your opinion, a Nazi is a person *who has a swastika tattoo on his forehead*, I must admit that I personally have not seen persons with such tattoos in Ukrainian government or Ukrainian parliament.
> 
> ...



Is that what Nazis were known for? Mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions? Is this some sort of a fucking joke?

Nazis are *AN ULTRA-NATIONALIST TOTALITARIAN REGIME LED BY A CHARISMATIC LEADER THAT INVADES OTHER COUNTRIES *because they belive themselves to be superior people with superior culture, who's destiny is to either rule or exterminate other peoples. This ideology is maintained by a hardcore nationalist propaganda machine and brutal supression of any sort of opposition.

Who in this conflict are most Nazi-like? Russians under Putin's regime of course.

Putin is a repressive autocrat who kills or jails any real political opposition, who has shut down any sembalance of freedom of speech and media, who rejects there is any such thing as a Ukranian state and belives it to be Russian property to be reclaimed by a brutal invasion.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I was listening to something on Youtube which suggested this and rightwinger wrote something in a thread which suggested this so I asked and they confirmed that the sanctions had stopped Russia from being able to perform.
> 
> Now if you go back to my original post I said that was one possibility and I wanted to know what people thought would happen to Russia if she had to give up on Ukraine and wasn't able to protect Russia.  Ukraine refuses all peace talks .  However the other thing I thought was a possibility was that Russia had not as yet shown her good weapons.  If she has them then I suspect we have not yet seen Russia fighting.
> 
> ...


Did you just say you relied on something Winger posted, Alexa?  With all due respect...WHY?  In case you haven't figured it out...Winger posts just to post posts!  He loves the fact that he's posted more than anyone else on the board.  HE LIVES FOR THAT!  Never mind that he hasn't posted an intelligent thought in years...HE'S NUMBER ONE!!!

As for your question about who would attack Russia?  In my opinion Putin has never been worried about Russia being attacked...his concern is losing further control over the former Soviet satellite nations that he covets.  Ukraine is simply one on a list of former Soviet "republics" that Putin has designs on!  If Ukraine goes...it's just a matter of time before Georgia and Chechnya go.  If the Russian military won't fight for Putin in Ukraine...do you think they'll be willing to fight in Chechnya?  I guarantee you that leaders throughout that region are reassessing their relationship with Russia.


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I get that you must know nothing about this as with other things.  No surprise there but you should learn to look in the mirror.
> 
> You do not control me.  I said possibility not definite.  You need to learn to read.









See thats what I thought.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I was listening to something on Youtube which suggested this and rightwinger wrote something in a thread which suggested this so I asked and they confirmed that the sanctions had stopped Russia from being able to perform.
> 
> Now if you go back to my original post I said that was one possibility and I wanted to know what people thought would happen to Russia if she had to give up on Ukraine and wasn't able to protect Russia.  Ukraine refuses all peace talks .  However the other thing I thought was a possibility was that Russia had not as yet shown her good weapons.  If she has them then I suspect we have not yet seen Russia fighting.
> 
> ...


You don't really understand warfare, Alexa.  You can invade a country and take wide swaths of land but if your ground troops aren't willing to go street to street in big cities and dislodge dug in and determined defenders then you can't subdue the country you've invaded.  Hitler invaded Russia and ROLLED through miles of Russian territory!  He couldn't make Russia surrender though because he couldn't take cities like Stalingrad.  Taking cities is the dirty part of waging war.  If your troops don't want to be there and are just trying to survive the war?  They aren't going to beat a cornered patriot that is willing to die to defend his nation!


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## gipper (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> I think Europe had a choice between relying on the US for its natural gas or relying on Vladimir Putin for its natural gas.  They chose Putin.  So how is that working out for them?  Duh?


What?


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## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

gipper said:


> What?


Do you really not understand the question?
Or do you not have an intelligent reply to it?


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## gipper (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Do you really not understand the question?
> Or do you not have an intelligent reply to it?


I don’t think we can communicate. You know so little that it’s impossible.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

gipper said:


> I don’t think we can communicate. You know so little that it’s impossible.


"I think Europe had a choice between relying on the US for its natural gas or relying on Vladimir Putin for its natural gas. They chose Putin. So how is that working out for them?"

That was my question to you, Gipper.  What's so hard to grasp?  
I don't think we can "communicate" because you're struggling to come up with a response to a rather straight forward question.


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## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Did you just say you relied on something Winger posted, Alexa?  With all due respect...WHY?  In case you haven't figured it out...Winger posts just to post posts!  He loves the fact that he's posted more than anyone else on the board.  HE LIVES FOR THAT!  Never mind that he hasn't posted an intelligent thought in years...HE'S NUMBER ONE!!!
> 
> As for your question about who would attack Russia?  In my opinion Putin has never been worried about Russia being attacked...his concern is losing further control over the former Soviet satellite nations that he covets.  Ukraine is simply one on a list of former Soviet "republics" that Putin has designs on!  If Ukraine goes...it's just a matter of time before Georgia and Chechnya go.  If the Russian military won't fight for Putin in Ukraine...do you think they'll be willing to fight in Chechnya?  I guarantee you that leaders throughout that region are reassessing their relationship with Russia.


🤣Are you sure. A lot of what he says sounds very good. I agree with a fair bit of what he says. He was also supported by someone else. They were both laying out the sort of things he would need bits of from abroad and the sort of no good things they could manage with the sanctions.   I do remember a Polish man on a forum I was on being scared Russia would come and take them back.  That was years ago. I am really not bothered what Putin is like.  That is not my business and I have no contact with him but on the reason for the war I disagree with you.   Why would Russia have given them their freedom as Sovereign States if that was not the intent - of course under a different person than Putin and I am aware he says the end of the soviet Era was the worst thing that ever happened.
Thig is we do know that the US promised Gorbachev that there would be no enlargement of NATO beyond Germany if they allowed Germany to Unify. There are records of this.  The US gave up on this promise  pretty much immediately.  Russia was warning the US from time to time that they had promised not to take these  states into NATO.  I saw a newspaper article from 2008 where Lavrov was complaining about the US saying Georgia and Ukraine would soon be in NATO.  He said if they went that far Russia would have to intervene.  Russia is pretty much surrounded with NATO states.  I can see them being not too happy.  What was the US doing telling Ukrainians who they should have in what position Politically.  At this time the US was helping them to oust a President.  The US should not be involved in doing that in any country apart from the US.  During the next 8 years they were busy training them how to use British and US military equipment.  Ukraine had been getting trained in this almost from when she got her Independence. She had fought in Iraq and I think Afghanistan along with NATO troops.

To me the argument that it was the US going against its promise not to bring in countries further east to Germany into NATO is the better one.  That the US wanted to can be seen by their contact with Ukraine from the beginning.  Likewise Moscow reminding them goes on all the way through. and so I do not agree with what you believe.  It is nothing to do with anything else except not wanting the US to fight Russia and bring us to Nuclear war. I worry that they have decided to destroy Russia just to get rid of a Rival.   I do not consider all Putin's murmurings to be the reason.  Indeed I see them as being his wrong position he presented to his people as the reason for war, probably making them think of the Ukrainians as brothers more than they did before.

 Post reply
Attach files  Insert quotes…


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## alexa (Oct 18, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> You don't really understand warfare, Alexa.  You can invade a country and take wide swaths of land but if your ground troops aren't willing to go street to street in big cities and dislodge dug in and determined defenders then you can't subdue the country you've invaded.  Hitler invaded Russia and ROLLED through miles of Russian territory!  He couldn't make Russia surrender though because he couldn't take cities like Stalingrad.  Taking cities is the dirty part of waging war.  If your troops don't want to be there and are just trying to survive the war?  They aren't going to beat a cornered patriot that is willing to die to defend his nation!


I am not sure what I said that made you think it matters whether I understand war.  However it is clear that Putin did not want that for Ukraine.  War should only be fought when there is no alternative and the US has no legal right to be involved here.  How much is even the desire of the people of Ukraine and how much the US I do not know. Rumour says you with Boris stopped an acceptable agreement between Zelensky and Putin , .  I hear Azov refused to stop fighting when asked by Zelensky - I actually saw that on video.  The sort of fighting you are talking about is simply kill the other or you are killed.  It has nothing to do with what you think about them.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I am not sure what I said that made you think it matters whether I understood war.  However it is clear that Putin did not want that for Ukraine.  War should only be fought when there is no alternative and the US has no legal right to be involved here.  How much is even the desire of the people of Ukraine and how much the US I do not know. Rumour says you with Boris stopped an acceptable agreement to end fighting, agreed between Zelensky and Putin.  I hear Azov refused to stop fighting when asked by Zelensky - I actually saw that on video.  The sort of fighting you are talking about is simply kill the other or you are killed.  It has nothing to do with what you think about them.


The US has no control over any agreements between Zelensky and Putin.  There was supposedly an offer from the Russians to stop attacking if they were given the Donbas region but Zelensky wasn't going to give up more Ukrainian territory after already having Russia seize Crimea by force.
You do realize, Alexa that both sides are using platforms like You Tube to foment propaganda...right?  To be honest with you I'd take anything you see there with a grain of salt.


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## Oldestyle (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> 🤣Are you sure. A lot of what he says sounds very good. I agree with a fair bit of what he says. He was also supported by someone else. They were both laying out the sort of things he would need bits of from abroad and the sort of no good things they could manage with the sanctions.   I do remember a Polish man on a forum I was on being scared Russia would come and take them back.  That was years ago. I am really not bothered what Putin is like.  That is not my business and I have no contact with him but on the reason for the war I disagree with you.   Why would Russia have given them their freedom as Sovereign States if that was not the intent - of course under a different person than Putin and I am aware he says the end of the soviet Era was the worst thing that ever happened.
> Thig is we do know that the US promised Gorbachev that there would be no enlargement of NATO beyond Germany if they allowed Germany to Unify. There are records of this.  The US gave up on this promise  pretty much immediately.  Russia was warning the US from time to time that they had promised not to take these  states into NATO.  I saw a newspaper article from 2008 where Lavrov was complaining about the US saying Georgia and Ukraine would soon be in NATO.  He said if they went that far Russia would have to intervene.  Russia is pretty much surrounded with NATO states.  I can see them being not to happy.  What was the US doing telling Ukranians who they should have in what position Politically.  At this time the US was helping them to oust a President.  The US should not be involved in doing that in any country.  During the next 8 years they were busy training them how to use British and US military equipment.  Ukraine had been getting trained in this almost from when she got her Independence. She had fought in Iraq and I think Afghanistan along with NATO troops.
> 
> To me the argument that it was the US going against its promise not to bring in countries further east to Germany into NATO is the better one.  That the US wanted to can be seen by their contact with Ukraine from the beginning.  Likewise Moscow reminding them goes on all the way through. and so I do not agree with what you believe.  It is nothing to do with anything else except not wanting the US to fight Russia and bring us to Nuclear war. I worry that they have decided to destroy Russia just to get rid of a Rival.   I do not consider all Putin's murmurings to be the reason.  Indeed I see them as being his wrong position he presented to his people, probably making them think of the Ukrainians as brothers more than they did before.
> ...


With all due respect, Alexa...an agreement between the US and the former USSR over what sovereign nations do, would have been worthless as soon as there was no Soviet Union!  When the USSR dissolved the Republics that made up the USSR became their own countries.  Ukraine isn't ruled by Russia.  Russia has no right to tell them what they can or cannot do.


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## Dissident (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Is that what Nazis were known for? Mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions?


That is not about “mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions”.

That is about *different levels of restrictions for *different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.

Ethnic minorities which are recognized as indigenous peoples - in Ukraine they are only Crimean Tatars, Crimean Karaites and Krymchaks - have no restrictions to use their native languages during education in public secondary schools. 
Ethnic minorities, whose languages are official languages of the European Union - e.g. ethnic Hungarians or Romanians – have some restrictions for use of their native languages during such education. 
And other ethnic minorities – e.g. Russians, Belarusans etc.- have more such restrictions than Hungarians or Romanians.



AntonToo said:


> Is this some sort of a fucking joke?


If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other citizens, I don’t believe that you would call such restrictions “fucking jokes”.


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> That is not about “mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions”.
> 
> That is about *different levels of restrictions for *different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.


Thats not Nazism make and it does not give any serious grounds for invasion. When you say it does you sound deranged.

Maybe that passes for a serious argument on Russia's Channel 1, but it's just a laughable excuse to justify a bloody invasion to everyone outside that bubble.


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## Dissident (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Thats not Nazism make. When you say it is you sound like a moron.


And what about you personally?

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?


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## The Sage of Main Street (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I read they used hypersonic in Syria.  The flying T-14's were only supposed to go into production this year so assuming they needed some imports for them, they would not have been made yet.  there is something strange about this.  I don't understand why Russia would invade Ukraine when it wasn't sure it had enough weapons to do so and with the sanctions was not going to be able to get them.  Then I remember reading the US asking how they had been so wrong that they had expected Russia to have a vast amount of good weapons when they were seen to just have a few which were quickly dealt with.
> 
> I guess there are two possibilities now.
> 
> ...


*War on Terror Not Led by Chickenhawks*

Here's what happened to Chechnya when Putin decided to get serious, whereas his predecessor, Yeltsin, wasn't:

SECOND WAR AGAINST CHECHNYA, AN AL QAIDA OUTPOST

Russian troops:  80,000
Russian fatalities:  7,000

Chechen troops:  22,000
Killed in Action:  16,000

Chechen civilians killed:  80,000
Chechen population:  800,000
Chechen refugees:  350,000


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> That is not about “mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions”.
> 
> That is about *different levels of restrictions for *different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.
> 
> ...



I'm a first generation, ethnic minority in America, my child learns in English, because thats the language we speak here. *GASP* Nazis! Nazis everywhere!


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## The Sage of Main Street (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> It's what I hear and if Europe's Gas was destroyed by the US I would think likely.  You cannot make allies with someone who will hit you when you are down and then sell you what they have taken by something 4 times the cost on which they are making massive profits.  You just do not do to allies what the US may have done.
> There appears to be a lot of talk in Europe about its success being linked to Russia.
> There is a talk that Germany at least is finished.
> 
> ...


*The Days of American Transnationalist Traitors Are Over*


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> And what about you personally?
> 
> If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?



I sure as hell wouldn't call lack of ESL classes (which many American states do not have) Nazism, BECAUSE IT IS NOT.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Anyone, who says that “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” and afterwards refuses to present “a long list of *NAMES *of these killed political opponents”, is a liar.
> 
> You cannot even give a link to a source where we could see such a list.
> 
> ...


*Neo-Con Karens*

The internal affairs of foreign countries are none of our business.  Whom they view as traitors and what they do about it is their own business.  That goes for what the Saudis thought about Khashoggi, too.


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## Dissident (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> I sure as hell wouldn't call lack of ESL classes (which many American states do not have) Nazism, BECAUSE IT IS NOT.



Cannot you answer "Yes" or "No" to a very simple question (see below) which I have already asked you twice before? 

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Cannot you answer "Yes" or "No" to a very simple question (see below) which I have already asked you twice before?
> 
> If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?



*Fucking joke is beliving these supposedly unequal laws to be Nazism.*

You want to say it's discrimatory? That it's not fair to some group of people? Yea ok, go ahead.

You want to say it's Nazism that justifies invasion into a sovereign country? Now you are making a total fool of yourself.


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## toomuchtime_ (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> And what about you personally?
> 
> If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?


This whole thread is based on a lie that the education law discriminates against some minorities in favor of others.  This is a lie you tout on here from time to time, but the repetition does not make it true.  The fact that you feel you need to tell lies to try to justify Russia's action means that you do not believe they are justified.


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## Dissident (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> You want to say it's Nazism that justifies invasion into a sovereign country?


I personally would call the above mentioned *law *a Nazi law or a law which is similar to Nazi laws.

But classical Nazism includes not only legislation, therefore other aspects of Ukrainian state must be discussed if we want to make a conclusion about Nazism as a whole.

As for justification of Russian military operation in Ukraine – you call it “invasion” – on Saturday I wrote a detailed post in this thread (see here) and there is a question in the lower part of this post.

I have asked many of my opponents to answer this question, but no one has answered it – no one has answered “Yes”, no one has answered “No” to this question.


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> I personally would call the above mentioned *law *a Nazi law or a law which is similar to Nazi laws.
> 
> But classical Nazism includes not only legislation, therefore other aspects of Ukrainian state must be discussed if we want to make a conclusion about Nazism as a whole.



So any kind of inequitable law, that is in any shape unfair to a group of people = *NAZIS!*

Tell me, does Russia have any Nazi laws? Let me know if you need some help listing them.


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> As for justification of Russian military operation in Ukraine – you call it “invasion” – on Saturday I wrote a detailed post in this thread (see here) and there is a question in the lower part of this post.



When you roll in tanks into a sovereign country, bomb cities and take over lands that is *OF COURSE* an invasion. What the fuck else can it possibly be?

You may have some sort of rationalizations and reasons for invasion, but it takes a Russian TV brainwashed person to attept to say it's not an invasion.


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## AZrailwhale (Oct 18, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Iraq did not invade any part of the U.S. in 2003.
> The U.S. invaded Iraq because Iraq allegedly had weapons of mass destruction.
> However, after the U.S. occupied Iraq, they never found any weapons of mass destruction there.


Iraq invaded Kuwait.  The US and UN replied with a war to force Iraq back into its borders.  Iraq signed a TEMPORARY cease fire to end that war and almost immediately started violating the terms of that cease-fire.  It also violated something like twelve UN Resolutions about its conduct during the cease-fire.  After many warnings the US went back to war and easily won.  The occupying allies did find WMDs and evidence that Saddam had moved large stores out of the country possibly to Syria.  He also went to great lengths to convince everyone that he had WMD.  He even convinced his generals.  I saw post war interviews with several generals all said I had no WMD but I know Mohammad did, they went to Mohammad, and he said I didn't, but Abdul did and on and on.  Saddam was running a bluff and it backfired on him.


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## AZrailwhale (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> so you will just leave them and get on with your lives?


No.  What I think will happen is that Russia will have to give up Sevastopol and all claims to Ukrainian territory.  It will also have to pay reparations to Ukraine and possibly return South Ossetia to Georgia.   Only after that is done will the sanctions be lifted and even then Russia will be a pariah state like the DPRK for several generations.  Russia had the chance to join the family of nations after the fall of the communist party and squandered it.  Western nations were falling all over themselves trying to help Russia and western corporations were investing billions in the Russian economy.  Then Putin came into power and he and his kleptocrat buddies decided to loot the country and restore the dead tyranny of the old USSR by force and terror.


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## AZrailwhale (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> I think there is a reasonable chance NATO would push Ukraine to give up Crimea if Russia agrees to give up it's other demands and withdraws from the east.


I don't agree.  As long as Russia has control of Crimea and no contiguous, secure land bridge Russia will fear having Ukraine cut off access to Crimea.  For a lasting peace Russia will have to be expelled from Crimea and agree to give up its lease on Sevastopol naval base.


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## AZrailwhale (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> You're missing my point.  Russia would appear at the moment not to have the military weapons needed to beat Ukraine. This would be due to sanctions.  Now she may have them and come back with them.  However if Russia does not have these weapons and cannot get a cease fire  then she also will not have them to protect Russia.  What happens with Russia.  You can no more protect your country with farm utensils and old guns than you can beat the Ukranian army with same.  What happens to Russia if she does not have the weapons to attack Ukraine and protect herself?


Simple, Russia will become the third world craphole it always has been.  It just won't have delusions of grandeur and a military force to keep them up.  Russia was always a third world society with a second world military.  It used mass to achieve what it couldn't do technically.  What eventually caused the fall of the communists in Russia was that the west got so technically advanced that Russia's historical reliance on mass couldn't compensate and Russia had to try to match western innovation and capability one on one and it couldn't.


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## AZrailwhale (Oct 18, 2022)

alexa said:


> I understand that the reason why Russia has not been issuing and using good weapons is because sanctions have stopped her being able to get material to repair them or get new ones,


I was watching a good video by a researcher on Russian armor.  According to recent sat photos Russia has less than a thousand tanks and AFVs left in its depots that appear capable of being restored to fighting trim.  It has lost more than fifteen hundred so far in the war destroyed or captured.  The number of restorable tanks may be even lower since he's counting anything that looks intact as restorable.  Tank parks that used to be full are now half empty and Russia is drawing on obsolete cold war era armor that is far less capable and survivable than what it has lost so far in the war.  This is similar to the beginning of Operation Barbarossa where Russia lost most of its tank stocks, but Russia doesn't have the ability to crank out T-34 analogues now to replace its losses. As Russia fields less capable armor Ukraine can fall back on less capable anti-tank weapons like TOWs and Saggars and still kill Russian armor.


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## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> I don't agree.  As long as Russia has control of Crimea and no contiguous, secure land bridge Russia will fear having Ukraine cut off access to Crimea.  For a lasting peace Russia will have to be expelled from Crimea and agree to give up its lease on Sevastopol naval base.



Why the would Ukraine cut off Crimea? 

You don't think one war with Russia is enough for them?


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## AZrailwhale (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Why the would Ukraine cut off Crimea?
> 
> You don't think one war with Russia is enough for them?


Because as long as Ukraine allows the illegal Russian seizure of Crimea to stand, Russia will always fear that Ukraine will block access to Sevastopol.  That’s the whole reason for the current war.  Russia is trying to seize, nationalize and get the rest of the world to accept its illegal conquering of Ukrainian territory.  The only way to permanently end the problem is to remove Russia from Sevastopol and Crimea.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 18, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Because as long as Ukraine allows the illegal Russian seizure of Crimea to stand, Russia will always fear that Ukraine will block access to Sevastopol.


Why would Ukraine block Sevastopol after recognizing Crimea to be part of Russia?

It doesn't make sense.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Oct 18, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Why would Ukraine block Sevastopol after recognizing Crimea to be part of Russia?
> 
> It doesn't make sense.


It didn’t recognize that. Russia conquered Crimea.  But even if they recognized the seizure, can you think of a better way to put pressure on Russia for some issue in the future?  The Russians have played that game in the past so it would certainly occur to them.  See the Berlin blockade and airlift for an example.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 19, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> So any kind of inequitable law, that is in any shape unfair to a group of people = *NAZIS!*
> 
> Tell me, does Russia have any Nazi laws? Let me know if you need some help listing them.


In my opinion, a law, which divides ethnic minorities of a country in first-grade people, second-grade people and third-grade people, is a Nazi law.

And if you know any such laws in Russia, please “help me listing them” indeed.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 19, 2022)

And about “*listing*”.

After I wrote that there is a suspiciously great number of unresolved political murders in modern Ukraine (please see here), the user Oldestyle declared that “there is a long *list *of political opponents that Putin has had killed”.

But he could not present a *list *of names of these “victims” or even a link to such a list (please see here).

And I am sure that *AntonToo's listing of laws *will end like *Oldestyle's listing of victims*, i.e. it will end in nothing.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> It didn’t recognize that.



Again I'm talking about the possibility that the recognition will be part of the negotiated end of the war. 

Russia recognizes LNR/DNR to be Ukraniane's sovereign territory and Ukraine recognizes Crimea to be part of Russia.

This settles border disputes and allows Ukraine to move to join EU/Nato


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

Dissident said:


> After I wrote that there is a suspiciously great number of unresolved political murders in modern Ukraine


So thats evidence of Nazism, right?

So lets take off your clearly bias blinders and make you consider that Russia is NOTORIOUS for political murders and jailing of political opposition, in fact there is NONE left at this point ...most are so brainwashed that they can't even imagine there possibly being an alternative to Putin's czarist rule anymore.

“Putin means war" - Boris Nemtsov. Murdered in Moscow in 2015.

Navalnui - rotting in jail indefenetly on ridiculous charges.








						Alexei Navalny sentenced to 9 more years in prison after fraud conviction
					

Jailed Russian opposition leader pleaded not guilty to new charges that he says were politically motivated




					www.theguardian.com
				




Yes, there is a list:


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/23/here-are-ten-critics-of-vladimir-putin-who-died-violently-or-in-suspicious-ways/
		


There is also a list of all the mystery murders of Russians since the start of the war:








						Updated list of oligarchs and Putin critics found dead since war began
					

A growing number of high-profile Russians have died under strange circumstances ever since President Vladimir Putin came to power.




					www.euronews.com
				




*Denials of blatant Russian Nazism(by your own hyper sensitive standard of what Nazism is) in 3....2....1...*


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

Dissident said:


> In my opinion, a law, which divides ethnic minorities of a country in first-grade people, second-grade people and third-grade people, is a Nazi law.


Because you are brainwashed dummy who watches too much Russian state TV.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

Dissident said:


> And if you know any such laws in Russia, please “help me listing them” indeed.


Since you are too damn indoctrinated by Russian propaganda to see the obvious here are examples of authoritarian Nazi laws, enforcement and legal system in Russia:

At onset of invasion Russia passed a law that would allow it to jail people for up to 15 years for spreading intentionally "fake" news about the military. What is "fake news"? Anything Russian government deems it is. Whatever is reported about the war contrary to Russian government appratus can be deemed enough to jail you for a very long term.

Russian government deemed calling this war, a war as "fake" according to Russian state, and by this NAZI law you could be sentenced for 15 years in jail for it.

This law effectively shut down last remaining semi-independent media in Russia, since they could no longer report unless it was Kremlin aproved propaganda.

Any sort of public protest now gets you fined or jailed.









						Russia Criminalizes Independent War Reporting, Anti-War Protests
					

New laws are part of Russia’s ruthless effort to suppress all dissent and make sure the population does not have access to any information that contradicts the Kremlin’s narrative about the invasion of Ukraine.




					www.hrw.org
				




On March 5, authorities also carried out dozens of raids at human rights defenders’ and activists’ homes, arresting some of them, apparently because they had allegedly participated in the peaceful anti-war movement.







I strongly suggest you watch this video that details how some young protestors were detained and beat by your Nazi state police, who fortunately were too fucking stupid to not get recorded in the process..



*Explain how that fuck such a clearly authoritarian law and enforcement does not show up on your insane-level-sensitive Nazi radar?*


Here is a jailings for 9 years for medically prescribed substance for personal use - clearly a draconian, Nazi state law.









						Brittney Griner Has Been Sentenced To 9 Years In A Russian Prison On Drug Charges
					

The WNBA player and two-time Olympic gold medalist made an emotional plea for leniency, saying she had made an "honest mistake."




					www.buzzfeednews.com


----------



## xyz (Oct 19, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *War on Terror Not Led by Chickenhawks*
> 
> Here's what happened to Chechnya when Putin decided to get serious, whereas his predecessor, Yeltsin, wasn't:
> 
> ...


If you look at those numbers, the only conclusion can be that it was genocide. 

What they did to Grozny is about the same thing your secret favorite guy did to Warsaw in WWII.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 19, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> “Putin means war" - Boris Nemtsov. Murdered in Moscow in 2015.


So what?

Nemtsov was murdered on February 27, 2015.

Seven days later, the first suspects - Dadaev and Shavanov - already were found and *Shavanov committed suicide* during the arrest. *Dadaev was later sentenced to 20 years (!!!) imprisonment* by a Moscow court.

Four persons who did not kill, but helped the killers were sentenced to 19, 16, 14 and 11 years in prison, respectively.

Does it mean that the murder of Nemtsov is unresolved?

And with every Putin's victim there is the same story - case is resolved, culprits are punished etc.

If *YOU *want to prove something here, please check *YOUR* evidence before writing something here.

It must not be *my *duty to check YOUR evidence.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

Dissident said:


> So what?
> 
> Nemtsov was murdered on February 27, 2015.
> 
> ...



Can you name a single high profile leader of opposition to Putin's regime that is not jailed or killed?

I'm not sure if you are that stupid or think everyone else is.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

Dissident said:


> *Shavanov committed suicide*


Let me guess, he jumped out of a window...right?   









						Updated list of oligarchs and Putin critics found dead since war began
					

A growing number of high-profile Russians have died under strange circumstances ever since President Vladimir Putin came to power.




					www.euronews.com


----------



## AZrailwhale (Oct 19, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Again I'm talking about the possibility that the recognition will be part of the negotiated end of the war.
> 
> Russia recognizes LNR/DNR to be Ukraniane's sovereign territory and Ukraine recognizes Crimea to be part of Russia.
> 
> This settles border disputes and allows Ukraine to move to join EU/Nato


It doesn't settle border disputes; it just lays the groundwork for another Russian invasion at a later date when Russia feels it is better prepared to win.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Oct 19, 2022)

Dissident said:


> So what?
> 
> Nemtsov was murdered on February 27, 2015.
> 
> ...


When you have a police state and corrupt courts, "solving" crimes is easy.  Refer to Inspector Renault in the movie Casablanca for an example.  "go round up the usual suspects" is the answer to any crime.  Eventually someone will confess.


----------



## Dissident (Oct 19, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Updated: A list of oligarchs and Putin critics found dead since Ukraine war


Please stop jumping from “Putin’s political opponents who were killed” to “Putin’s political opponents who died in suspicious ways” and farther to ”a list of oligarchs who were found dead”.

I repeat once again, please check the names, e.g. from the article of The Washington Post which you have cited.

For example, the author of this article wrote in *2017 *about murder of Yushenkov in *2003*, but this author “forgot” to mention that already in *2004 *Yushenkov’s murderer was sentenced to 20 years imprisonment and this murderer confessed that Yushenkov had been killed because of a money conflict.

​


----------



## Dissident (Oct 19, 2022)

And now I must leave this topic for a pair of days.
So, you will have time to check facts about “Putin’s victims”.


----------



## xyz (Oct 19, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> When you have a police state and corrupt courts, "solving" crimes is easy.  Refer to Inspector Renault in the movie Casablanca for an example.  "go round up the usual suspects" is the answer to any crime.  Eventually someone will confess.


There are various ways of making innocent people confess.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Oct 19, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Because as long as Ukraine allows the illegal Russian seizure of Crimea to stand, Russia will always fear that Ukraine will block access to Sevastopol.  That’s the whole reason for the current war.  Russia is trying to seize, nationalize and get the rest of the world to accept its illegal conquering of Ukrainian territory.  The only way to permanently end the problem is to remove Russia from Sevastopol and Crimea.


*Globalbullshit*


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> When you have a police state and corrupt courts, "solving" crimes is easy.  Refer to Inspector Renault in the movie Casablanca for an example.  "go round up the usual suspects" is the answer to any crime.  Eventually someone will confess.


He is clueless. Corrupt regime can make anyone say antyhing.

There is actually a very clear example of that: POW's returning to Russia are clearly co-erced to spew blatant propaganda on their national TV:


For those that don't speak russian and can't get google translation: These soldiers gave volantary interviews about their detainment in Ukraine and how they ended up there. All of them talked about very civil treatment (including extensive medical help) and them not seeing any evidence of any sort of Nazi-like behavior towards them.

However once they return, they tell to Russian media grotesque lies about not being fed (even though you can clearly see they are at good weight), about being tortured and otherwise mistreated by all the Nazis they supposedly saw.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

Dissident said:


> And now I must leave this topic for a pair of days.
> So, you will have time to check facts about “Putin’s victims”.



Yep, now that you can't refute the many Nazi ways of current Russian government you have to run off.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> It doesn't settle border disputes; it just lays the groundwork for another Russian invasion at a later date when Russia feels it is better prepared to win.



Nope, Ukraine will be admitted in NATO by then and second invasion would be a declaration of WW3


----------



## gipper (Oct 19, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Nope, Ukraine will be admitted in NATO by then and second invasion would be a declaration of WW3


Hey look!  NAZIS!


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

gipper said:


> Hey look!  NAZIS!



Again, some grunts, not actual Ukranian political leaders.


----------



## gipper (Oct 19, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Nope, Ukraine will be admitted in NATO by then and second invasion would be a declaration of WW3


You and her have the same childish thinking.


----------



## AntonToo (Oct 19, 2022)

gipper said:


> You and her have the same childish thinking.


Time for well earned ignore, enough is enough.


----------



## gipper (Oct 19, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Time for well earned ignore, enough is enough.


What took so long?


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Oct 19, 2022)

gipper said:


> You and her have the same childish thinking.


the fact he would believe what that evil motherfucker says speaks volumns of his stupidity.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Oct 19, 2022)

gipper said:


> Hey look!  NAZIS!


you took the russia haters to school that Ukraine is the nazis who want to murder people and take over the world.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Oct 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> In the days immediately preceding the Russian advance into Ukraine, there was an increase in shelling coming from Zelensky's forces. It seems likely he was told to provoke a Russian response and when that came US sanctions would cripple the Russian economy withing weeks. Now it's beginning to look like NATO will fragment long before Russia does.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Oct 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Which part of the post do you find farcical, the allegation that the US instructed Zelensky to provoke a Russian response or anti-NATO protests are breaking out in Europe?
> 
> Anti-NATO Mass protests erupt in France, Germany and parts of Europe | Zee English News


old fartstyle and the zelensky apologists get their asses handed to them on a platter.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Oct 19, 2022)

alexa said:


> Russia has two main interests in this.  It's safety and its financial security.
> 
> Russia had an agreement with the US that if it allowed the reunification of Germany the US would expand NATO no further.  The US agreed to this but despite pleas again and again it has just moved further and further up to Russia's borders and in 2008 it announced that it would soon be taking Georgia and Ukraine into NATO as well.  Lavrov warned the US that if it did not stop Russia would have to move into those areas.  The US did not stop.  Russia is a very large country and it seems that Ukraine being in NATO would mean Russia would be very vulnerable to attack by NATO at any time.
> 
> ...


 best damn post on this thread bar none,no contest.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Oct 19, 2022)

gipper said:


> Get informed. Don’t allow the criminal state and it’s controlled media to keep you ignorant.


old fartstyle is a pro at that,he still thinks reagan was a great man   

trollboy shill joe b also worships cnn and the bbc as the gospel truth.


----------



## gipper (Oct 19, 2022)

Oldestyle said:


> Nobody is buying your propaganda, Dissident!  Ukraine wanting to take back what Russia has seized by force isn't justification for a Russian invasion.  Claiming it is borders on farce!  You Russians are guilty of war crimes.  Under Putin you're the second coming of the Nazis.  The only difference is that the Russian people seem to be coming to their senses about how evil their "leader" actually is!  More and more of them are refusing to fight for him.


Any guesses?


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Oct 20, 2022)

gipper said:


> Any guesses?
> View attachment 712730


*Some Genos Need to Be Cided.  And Slavery Was Justifiable Punishment.*


----------



## BothWings (Nov 5, 2022)

The real question would be was Ukraine a threat to Russia before the Obama administration used the CIA to  install pro Western anti-russian personnel within its ranks. That is exactly what happened and there began a slow military and weapons build up there that was in fact intended to threaten Russia. So Russia's prerogative now is to have those people and those Western weapons removed. If that happened in some place like Mexico or Cuba we would be doing something very similar.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 5, 2022)

BothWings said:


> The real question would be was Ukraine a threat to Russia before the Obama administration used the CIA to  install pro Western anti-russian personnel within its ranks. That is exactly what happened and there began a slow military and weapons build up there that was in fact intended to threaten Russia. So Russia's prerogative now is to have those people and those Western weapons removed. If that happened in some place like Mexico or Cuba we would be doing something very similar.


There is absolutely no rational basis for thinking that happened in Ukraine, Ivan.


----------



## AlexanderPK (Nov 5, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> There is absolutely no rational basis for thinking that happened in Ukraine, Ivan.


You've got to check what's under your bed to make sure no Ivan is lurking there. They are ubiquitous, aren't they?


----------



## Stann (Dec 5, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


Russia realized how weak they are without some of the Ukrainian territories. This is simply a land grab. And everything Putin says is just excuses for The invasion. He couldn't stand it when the pro Russian government was voted out by their Congress.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 6, 2022)

BothWings said:


> The real question would be was Ukraine a threat to Russia before the Obama administration used the CIA to  install pro Western anti-russian personnel within its ranks. That is exactly what happened and there began a slow military and weapons build up there that was in fact intended to threaten Russia. So Russia's prerogative now is to have those people and those Western weapons removed. If that happened in some place like Mexico or Cuba we would be doing something very similar.


That's a dumb, ignorant fantasy.

Weapons build up in Ukraine was not the CAUSE of the Russian invasion, it is the RESULT of it.

Before the war the only advanced weapons supplied were Javelins - a DEFENSIVE anti-tank weapon that posed zero threat to Russian borders protected by nuclear arms.

There were 4 NATO countries on Russian borders and 2 more joined as a result of this invasion. One them is well militarized Finland, that is 100 miles from St.Petersberg and about same distance to Moscow.

There is no sane explanation for invasion in terms of military pre-emption.

Ukranian threat to Russian regime was primarily as a westernized brother-country that rejected the "Russian world" and where people live better off as a result. 

If When that happens Russia is next and Putin's life's work goes down in history a regressive failure. The invasion did nothing but accelerated the process and cemented Putin place there as a failed imperialistic autocrat, right next to Hitler.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> That's a dumb, ignorant fantasy.
> 
> Weapons build up in Ukraine was not the CAUSE of the Russian invasion, it is the RESULT of it.
> 
> ...


Delusional. Get help.


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> Delusional. Get help.


I believe you are the one who's delusional. We don't believe in lies.


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> That's a dumb, ignorant fantasy.
> 
> Weapons build up in Ukraine was not the CAUSE of the Russian invasion, it is the RESULT of it.
> 
> ...


They believe in the biggest liar in the world; they are all delusional.


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> That's a dumb, ignorant fantasy.
> 
> Weapons build up in Ukraine was not the CAUSE of the Russian invasion, it is the RESULT of it.
> 
> ...


Look at how he defines himself as a libertarian and an anarchist. He's really crazy, he's one of the people that wants to destroy our government, destroy our nation. He should be locked up as the terrorist he is.


----------



## alexa (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> Russia realized how weak they are without some of the Ukrainian territories. This is simply a land grab.


That could be true of Crimea which was given to Ukraine in the Soviet era apparently by someone from Ukraine.  They need Crimea for defence.

The East though had a majority of Russian speakers and had been being fired at since 2014 after the US supported Coup and change of government.  War was going to be happen without negotiations and after seeing the attacks on the Russian Ukranians increasing Russia came in. The Rhetoric we get is a bit like in Israel.  Say nothing about what you have done.  Just say the response and blame them.

It is a shame for everyone that the US and UK told Zelensky to stop the peace agreement they were coming to in April or was it March,


----------



## alexa (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> Look at how he defines himself as a libertarian and an anarchist. He's really crazy, he's one of the people that wants to destroy our government, destroy our nation. He should be locked up as the terrorist he is.


You would 'lock people up' for what they say on internet sites and even when they are not supporting violence?


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> I believe you are the one who's delusional. We don't believe in lies.


Please get informed and stop believing lies from the lying establishment. Your much too old to be so easily duped.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

alexa said:


> You would 'lock people up' for what they say on internet sites and even when they are not supporting violence?


Authoritarians but too dumb to know it.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> Look at how he defines himself as a libertarian and an anarchist. He's really crazy, he's one of the people that wants to destroy our government, destroy our nation. He should be locked up as the terrorist he is.


I’m certain this makes you and Tonydupe so happy…

https://twitter.com/jdrachel/status/1599918533219344384?s=61&t=W3XTCMSD3Wib9iKZ_wlSEA


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

alexa said:


> That could be true of Crimea which was given to Ukraine in the Soviet era apparently by someone from Ukraine.  They need Crimea for defence.
> 
> The East though had a majority of Russian speakers and had been being fired at since 2014 after the US supported Coup and change of government.  War was going to be happen without negotiations and after seeing the attacks on the Russian Ukranians increasing Russia came in. The Rhetoric we get is a bit like in Israel.  Say nothing about what you have done.  Just say the response and blame them.
> 
> It is a shame for everyone that the US and UK told Zelensky to stop the peace agreement they were coming to in April or was it March,


You call it a coup. The Ukrainian government voted the pro-Russians out of office. And I don't know if we had anything to do with it. There are tons of lies out there, you have to be careful about what you believe.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> You call it a coup. The Ukrainian government voted the pro-Russians out of office. And I don't know if we had anything to do with it. There are tons of lies out there, you have to be careful about what you believe.


Self proven DUPE!


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> I’m certain this makes you and Tonydupe so happy…
> 
> https://twitter.com/jdrachel/status/1599918533219344384?s=61&t=W3XTCMSD3Wib9iKZ_wlSEA


No, it just explains how radicalized some of the people on here are. I wish they weren't, the world is crazy enough to way it is. We don't need to add to it. That helps no one.


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> Self proven DUPE!


Like I said there are a lot of lies out there, you might well be the one who is DUPED.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> Like I said there are a lot of lies out there, you might well be the one who is DUPED.


Lol. This from someone who believes the CIA and USG.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> Like I said there are a lot of lies out there, you might well be the one who is DUPED.


Here is a very good column that will alleviate you of your ignorance, but you must open your mind. 








						Americans Dumbed Down on Russia - LewRockwell
					

Five years ago today, Congress learned from sworn, horse’s-mouth testimony that there is no technical evidence that Russia (or anyone else) hacked the DNC emails showing how the DNC had stacked the deck against Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton’s rival for the Democratic nomination. I can almost...




					www.lewrockwell.com


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. This from someone who believes the CIA and USG.


So you are radicalized you don't even trust our government. How sad. I understand the government has to do a lot of things that might not seem right but they do have our best interest in mind. Life isn't as simple as people wanted to be and it can't be that simple because of human nature.


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> Here is a very good column that will alleviate you of your ignorance, but you must open your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I went to their home page they are anti-state, anti-war and pro-market. The article is definitely biased and not done by experts in the field so I didn't even bother to read it.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> I went to their home page they are anti-state, anti-war and pro-market. The article is definitely biased and not done by experts in the field so I didn't even bother to read it.


Lol. You might want to look up Ray McGovern. Lol.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> Delusional. Get help.


No, it’s the truth.  When the Ukrainian people turned on the Russian puppet president who passively let Russia invade Ukraine and annex Crimea, he fled to Russia before they could even go through the process of impeaching him and removing him from office.  Ukraine then elected a government that committed to protecting Ukraine from further Russian aggression And it began building up its defenses by buying weapons, producing its own weapons and updating the training of the Ukrainian Army.


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. You might want to look up Ray McGovern. Lol.


Sorry, I have better things to do with my time. Try to have a good day, I plan on it.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> No, it’s the truth.  When the Ukrainian people turned on the Russian puppet president who passively let Russia invade Ukraine and annex Crimea, he fled to Russia before they could even go through the process of impeaching him and removing him from office.  Ukraine then elected a government that committed to protecting Ukraine from further Russian aggression And it began building up its defenses by buying weapons, producing its own weapons and updating the training of the Ukrainian Army.


No it’s false.


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> Sorry, I have better things to do with my time. Try to have a good day, I plan on it.





Stann said:


> Sorry, I have better things to do with my time. Try to have a good day, I plan on it.


Here you go. 
_Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. His 27-year career as a CIA analyst includes serving as Chief of the Soviet Foreign Policy Branch and preparer/briefer of the President’s Daily Brief. He is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)._


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> No it’s false.


No, it's the truth. And when the Ukraine takes back it's 4 territories that Russia is occupying, those pro-Russian leaders will flee to Russia also, if they are not murdered by the occupied citizensry..


----------



## gipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Stann said:


> No, it's the truth. And when the Ukraine takes back it's 4 territories that Russia is occupying, those pro-Russian leaders will flee to Russia also, if they are not murdered by the occupied citizensry..


You’re dreaming. Ukes aren’t taking shit back, but their nation will be destroyed and thousands will die in a war that could have easily avoided. Yet you want more war.


----------



## Stann (Dec 6, 2022)

gipper said:


> You’re dreaming. Ukes aren’t taking shit back, but their nation will be destroyed and thousands will die in a war that could have easily avoided. Yet you want more war.


There's no way to revert blatant aggression. Only Putin that could have done that. But we see what his choice was. Sooner or later he will pay for his war crimes.


----------



## alexa (Dec 7, 2022)

gipper said:


> I’m certain this makes you and Tonydupe so happy…
> 
> https://twitter.com/jdrachel/status/1599918533219344384?s=61&t=W3XTCMSD3Wib9iKZ_wlSEA


We don't get any news that isn't censored before we get it.  With what you are saying above about Ukraine firing on the schools, and homes I remember at the beginning of the war the great propaganda about how the Russians were beyond inhumane attacking schools, hospitals and homes.  It was every day we were getting this news.  I put on Youtube and it came up with a video on East Ukraine 8 Years ago.  Obviously I decided to watch it to see what things were like then. Then I heard the East Ukrainians speaking about how the Ukranian fighters who were at that time the Nazi battalions Azov and Right Sector and the East Ukranian went on about how they always attacked their schools, their hospitals and their homes and that what they (Ukranian Fighters) were trying to do was to get East Ukrainians to leave or in other words to get Russian speakers to leave.  This is 8 years ago and does go with the Ukranian Nationalists wanting non Ukrainians to leave which is one of the reasons I have heard for them fighting Russian speaking Ukrainians in the east from 2014.  However at that time what really struck me was that 8 years ago the East was complaining about the Ukrainians doing to them exactly what the West was telling us about Russia to get us to believe Putin, as if he is responsible for everything that happens, was inhumane.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

alexa said:


> We don't get any news that isn't censored before we get it.  With what you are saying above about Ukraine firing on the schools, and homes I remember at the beginning of the war the great propaganda about how the Russians were beyond inhumane attacking schools, hospitals and homes.  It was every day we were getting this news.  I put on Youtube and it came up with a video on East Ukraine 8 Years ago.  Obviously I decided to watch it to see what things were like then. Then I heard the East Ukrainians speaking about how the Ukranian fighters who were at that time the Nazi battalions Azov and Right Sector and the East Ukranian went on about how they always attacked their schools, their hospitals and their homes and that what they (Ukranian Fighters) were trying to do was to get East Ukrainians to leave or in other words to get Russian speakers to leave.  This is 8 years ago and does go with the Ukranian Nationalists wanting non Ukrainians to leave which is one of the reasons I have heard for them fighting Russian speaking Ukrainians in the east from 2014.  However at that time what really struck me was that 8 years ago the East was complaining about the Ukrainians doing to them exactly what the West was telling us about Russia to get us to believe Putin, as if he is responsible for everything that happens, was inhumane.


To be perfectly Fair, we know that Russia interfered with those Eastern sections of the Ukraine and back the rebels which made the situation worse, even sending Russians troops in. It was an attempt to give Russia excuses for invading.


----------



## alexa (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> To be perfectly Fair, we know that Russia interfered with those Eastern sections of the Ukraine and back the rebels which made the situation worse, even sending Russians troops in. It was an attempt to give Russia excuses for invading.


My post weas not about that.  My post was about the reality that Ukraine had been 8 years ago doing to the people of East Ukraine exactly what they complained about Russia doing to them.  In one case it is recorded as heroic. the other as inhumane.  I was listening to a Jewish Ukranian living in Israel speaking on Real News she says the West has a need to see Putin as this isolated crazy psychopath.  She also said the West was impotent in this situation and that it was causing the break up of Ukraine. She had some interesting views not least because they are so different to what we hear here.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

alexa said:


> My post weas not about that.  My post was about the reality that Ukraine had been 8 years ago doing to the people of East Ukraine exactly what they complained about Russia doing to them.  In one case it is recorded as heroic. the other as inhumane.  I was listening to a Jewish Ukranian living in Israel speaking on Real News she says the West has a need to see Putin as this isolated crazy psychopath.  She also said the West was impotent in this situation and that it was causing the break up of Ukraine. She had some interesting views not least because they are so different to what we hear here.


The Ukraine remains defiant and now they have the technology to create missile strikes within Moscow. I believe that will be the only thing that will stop all this insanity. They need to level Moscow to the ground and be done with it.


----------



## alexa (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> The Ukraine remains defiant and now they have the technology to create missile strikes within Moscow. I believe that will be the only thing that will stop all this insanity. They need to level Moscow to the ground and be done with it.


Although Putin has been persistent that he does not want to nuke Ukraine, that might just do it.  Again going back to that woman last night  she said it is amazing that the West just does not know what the rest of the world is thinking and how the West has just been playing into Russia's hands by which Ukraine being in the middle is destroyed.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

alexa said:


> Although Putin has been persistent that he does not want to nuke Ukraine, that might just do it.  Again going back to that woman last night  she said it is amazing that the West just does not know what the rest of the world is thinking and how the West has just been playing into Russia's hands by which Ukraine being in the middle is destroyed.


The Russians murdered hundreds of thousands of ukrainians before. And now they're doing it again. How much more do you think the ukrainians can take ? They're not going to, they're going to seek Justice and hopefully some revenge.


----------



## alexa (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> The Russians murdered hundreds of thousands of ukrainians before. And now they're doing it again. How much more do you think the ukrainians can take ? They're not going to, they're going to seek Justice and hopefully some revenge.


R u a sock for toomuchtime.  You haven't even been listening to what I have said.  You are the person who keeps wanting to make this situation more violent.  You also as said earlier you believe people should be locked up for their thoughts.  That is how fascism works and is certainly how the West is moving.  In Democratic societies people need to have at least some investigative journalists who tell them the truth.  As we see with Assange that now means life in jail and your press sit in their hotels in Ukraine waiting for some military person to come and give them a statement which is basically what they want them to put in their papers and they do.  They don't know what is going on any more than you.  That is the biggest problem here.  It is possible to get other points of view but then people like yourself say people should be put in jail for even having such views and so people remain ignorant stuck to their view, helping no one and in your case it would seem interested in starting WW3 because that is where your thinking will take us.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

alexa said:


> R u a sock for toomuchtime.  You haven't even been listening to what I have said.  You are the person who keeps wanting to make this situation more violent.  You also as said earlier you believe people should be locked up for their thoughts.  That is how fascism works and is certainly how the West is moving.  In Democratic societies people need to have at least some investigative journalists who tell them the truth.  As we see with Assange that now means life in jail and your press sit in their hotels in Ukraine waiting for some military person to come and give them a statement which is basically what they want them to put in their papers and they do.  They don't know what is going on any more than you.  That is the biggest problem here.  It is possible to get other points of view but then people like yourself say people should be put in jail for even having such views and so people remain ignorant stuck to their view, helping no one and in your case it would seem interested in starting WW3 because that is where your thinking will take us.


Protein is not listening to reason he's taking over more and more Ukrainian territory and he is threatening the entire nation. Go talk to him if you want to try to get him to stop this insanity. You can't expect the ukrainians to take this lying down. They have the right to be a free people. They've suffered enough under Russia. Russia needs to pay for all the rebuilding too that's going to be in the trillions of dollars.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 7, 2022)

alexa said:


> My post weas not about that.  My post was about the reality that Ukraine had been 8 years ago doing to the people of East Ukraine exactly what they complained about Russia doing to them.  In one case it is recorded as heroic. the other as inhumane.  I was listening to a Jewish Ukranian living in Israel speaking on Real News she says the West has a need to see Putin as this isolated crazy psychopath.  She also said the West was impotent in this situation and that it was causing the break up of Ukraine. She had some interesting views not least because they are so different to what we hear here.


She is ignorant and dead wrong.

Without Russian invasions, annexations and propping up separatists there would be absolutely no issue today with Ukranian borders.

Stop letting ignorant mouthpieces fill your head with nonsense, look at the facts and get your own opinions.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 7, 2022)

alexa said:


> Although Putin has been persistent that he does not want to nuke Ukraine, that might just do it.  Again going back to that woman last night  she said it is amazing that the West just does not know what the rest of the world is thinking and how the West has just been playing into Russia's hands by which Ukraine being in the middle is destroyed.


Do you feel like if she said it, then it's true?  

This invasion has been a total DISASTER for Russia.

You name their interest or goal and I'll show you how the invasion achieved exactly opposite.

If Putin was intently trying to prop up NATO and to destroy Russia from within, then this invasion would be a great way to accomplish all that.


----------



## gipper (Dec 7, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Do you feel like if she said it, then it's true?
> 
> This invasion has been a total DISASTER for Russia.
> 
> ...


You know nothing. Stop posting.


----------



## Toro (Dec 7, 2022)

Of course Ukraine wasn’t. 

The only people who thought so were rubes, Russians and tankies. 

Like gimper for instance, who’s all three!


----------



## gipper (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> There's no way to revert blatant aggression. Only Putin that could have done that. But we see what his choice was. Sooner or later he will pay for his war crimes.


Lol. This from an American who somehow believes his country’s decades of aggression is perfectly fine, but no other nation can do as the USG does. 

LMFAO. 

HYPOCRITE!


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

gipper said:


> You know nothing. Stop posting.


You obviously are the one who doesn't know anything. Russia is crumbling from within because of all the corruption. The invasion of the Ukraine is simply another corrupt plan to steal land from its neighbor and attempt to put a puppet government in place in the Ukraine. Are ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia anymore. They used to have a mutual military defense pact. They used to be friends. All that is gone forever. Russia is destroying itself. None of its neighbors feel safe from Russia anymore. Russia itself May soon break up. Remember what constitutes Russia, 11 independent republic reside inside of Russia, all over 32 oblasts. The map of Russia might be changing before our very eyes very soon.


----------



## gipper (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> You obviously are the one who doesn't know anything. Russia is crumbling from within because of all the corruption. The invasion of the Ukraine is simply another corrupt plan to steal land from its neighbor and attempt to put a puppet government in place in the Ukraine. Are ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia anymore. They used to have a mutual military defense pact. They used to be friends. All that is gone forever. Russia is destroying itself. None of its neighbors feel safe from Russia anymore. Russia itself May soon break up. Remember what constitutes Russia, 11 independent republic reside inside of Russia, all over 32 oblasts. The map of Russia might be changing before our very eyes very soon.


Sure thing. 

Neighbors don’t feel safe and Russia will break up into numerous smaller states. Lol. 

When Ukraine starting mass murdering it’s own citizens in the east after the Obama Coup, they weren’t friends with Russia. Really? Lol. 

No doubt you think Time (a well known CIA organ) is great.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

gipper said:


> Sure thing.
> 
> Neighbors don’t feel safe and Russia will break up into numerous smaller states. Lol.
> 
> ...


You are entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. The Ukraine has the capability to strike Moscow with missiles now. I think it would only be fair if they level Moscow to rubble. That's the only thing Russia seems to understand. So if it must be it must be. At any rate, my crystal ball can't seem to zero in on the outcome of that situation. We'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## gipper (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. The Ukraine has the capability to strike Moscow with missiles now. I think it would only be fair if they level Moscow to rubble. That's the only thing Russia seems to understand. So if it must be it must be. At any rate, my crystal ball can't seem to zero in on the outcome of that situation. We'll just have to wait and see.


You’re crazy but don’t know it. 

You think leveling Moscow, which would result in massive deaths of millions of innocent women and children, is warranted. Over 12 million people live in Moscow you dumb ass. 

You fucking warmongers have to be the dumbest MFers of all time. 

Are you capable of thinking?  Leveling Moscow would every likely result in a full exchange of nuclear weapons by Russia and US, resulting in massive death throughout the world.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

gipper said:


> You’re crazy but don’t know it.
> 
> You think leveling Moscow, which would result in massive deaths of millions of innocent women and children, is warranted. Over 12 million people live in Moscow you dumb ass.
> 
> ...


Normally I'm not for war at all. But in this kind of naked aggression I don't see any other reasonable way out of it. I'd compare Putin to Hitler. Do you think Hitler would have listened to the reason ? No, people like him give us no alternative.


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## Ringo (Dec 7, 2022)

What does it take to get on the cover of "Time" if there are no merits and you are a weak ruler?
Lick the ass of the USA and fuck up your own country!


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

gipper said:


> You’re crazy but don’t know it.
> 
> You think leveling Moscow, which would result in massive deaths of millions of innocent women and children, is warranted. Over 12 million people live in Moscow you dumb ass.
> 
> ...


I understand that, I wish Putin did. He has no idea what he's doing. None of this would be happening if you didn't exist.


----------



## gipper (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> Normally I'm not for war at all. But in this kind of naked aggression I don't see any other reasonable way out of it. I'd compare Putin to Hitler. Do you think Hitler would have listened to the reason ? No, people like him give us no alternative.


Lol. You’re such an enormous hypocrite, but you have no idea why. 

You foolishly think Putin is another Hitler, yet his military can’t beat Ukraine and he has been in power 20 years, without ever approaching the the number of foreign interventions and massive deaths caused by the USG. 

TURN OFF THE TV YOU BOOB.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. You’re such an enormous hypocrite, but you have no idea why.
> 
> You foolishly think Putin is another Hitler, yet his military can’t beat Ukraine and he has been in power 20 years, without ever approaching the the number of foreign interventions and massive deaths caused by the USG.
> 
> TURN OFF THE TV YOU BOOB.


You have slandered me left and right, all I'm doing is voicing in my opinion. And if you really want to talk about crazy; Putin has threatened nuclear warfare. No one else has dared to do such a thing. The rest of the world knows better and for the most part are acting a lot more sanely. But he's got to understand there are limits to his atrocities that we will not stand for.


----------



## gipper (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> You have slandered me left and right, all I'm doing is voicing in my opinion. And if you really want to talk about crazy; Putin has threatened nuclear warfare. No one else has dared to do such a thing. The rest of the world knows better and for the most part are acting a lot more sanely. But he's got to understand there are limits to his atrocities that we will not stand for.


Yes you’re voicing an opinion, but you’re too uninformed make that opinion. You don’t realize you’ve been propagandized by the CIA controlled media. Sadly you’re not alone.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yes you’re voicing an opinion, but you’re too uninformed make that opinion. You don’t realize you’ve been propagandized by the CIA controlled media. Sadly you’re not alone.
> View attachment 735857


These are my thoughts. I have not been programmed as you say, maybe you have. I have second cousins who were in concentration camps in Poland. They weren't Jewish, they were resistant fighters. I understand the horrible depths the human mind can sink into. To have such a terrible leader in Russia is a total mistake for Russia as well as the rest of the world. The only language he seems to understand is merciless terror. So be it, you reap what you sow.


----------



## xyz (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> They believe in the biggest liar in the world; they are all delusional.


Nope.
Russian support for Ukraine war has collapsed in a few months


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

alexa said:


> That could be true of Crimea which was given to Ukraine in the Soviet era apparently by someone from Ukraine.  They need Crimea for defence.
> 
> The East though had a majority of Russian speakers and had been being fired at since 2014 after the US supported Coup and change of government.  War was going to be happen without negotiations and after seeing the attacks on the Russian Ukranians increasing Russia came in. The Rhetoric we get is a bit like in Israel.  Say nothing about what you have done.  Just say the response and blame them.
> 
> It is a shame for everyone that the US and UK told Zelensky to stop the peace agreement they were coming to in April or was it March,


Zelenskyy.himself says there can be no peace unless all the Ukrainian territory is returned to the Ukraine. I don't see how you could get around that.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

xyz said:


> Nope.
> Russian support for Ukraine war has collapsed in a few months


I think you're misinterpreted my comment. I agree, I'm certain the common Russian civilian is totally opposed to this war.


----------



## xyz (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> The Ukraine remains defiant and now they have the technology to create missile strikes within Moscow. I believe that will be the only thing that will stop all this insanity. They need to level Moscow to the ground and be done with it.


The strikes on areas far from the border were all drone strikes.

There is no need to hit the civilian population. Military installations in the Moscow region are legitimate targets though.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 7, 2022)

Ringo said:


> What does it take to get on the cover of "Time" if there are no merits and you are a weak ruler?
> Lick the ass of the USA and fuck up your own country!


No merits? Seriously dummy?

Zelensky stood his ground and refused evacuation offers when everyone presumed him dead man walking.

He has near unanimous approval of his people and the whole West behind Ukraine.

If someone told you in February that Russia is going to get their ass kicked in Ukraine so bad that they would be down to desperate bombing of civilian infrastructure you would never believe it.

You can compare it to Putin - a coward who lives in a bunker and starts wars his people have pay for with their lives and livelihoods.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

xyz said:


> The strikes on areas far from the border were all drone strikes.
> 
> There is no need to hit the civilian population. Military installations in the Moscow region are legitimate targets though.


All I'm saying is when I saw the map. Those Russian bases were as far away as Moscow is from the Ukraine. I could see the next step in the Ukrainian resistance will be to bomb Moscow. Effectively killing the head of the snake. After all that Russia has done to the Ukraine it would be Justice as far as I'm concerned. Putin has already threatened the Ukraine with nuclear attacks. I'm not suggesting that the ukrainians use nuclear. Whoever uses nuclear first will be the pariah of the world and that Nation will be utterly destroyed by all the rest of the nations of the world. World is a different place in the United States use nuclear weapons to end world war II with Japan. Today the world would be totally against whoever does first strike. Let's hope Putin isn't crazy enough to do that.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

xyz said:


> The strikes on areas far from the border were all drone strikes.
> 
> There is no need to hit the civilian population. Military installations in the Moscow region are legitimate targets though.


Were all the cities in the Ukraine legitimate targets ? You can't have it both ways.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 7, 2022)

Stann said:


> All I'm saying is when I saw the map. Those Russian bases were as far away as Moscow is from the Ukraine. I could see the next step in the Ukrainian resistance will be to bomb Moscow. Effectively killing the head of the snake. After all that Russia has done to the Ukraine it would be Justice as far as I'm concerned. Putin has already threatened the Ukraine with nuclear attacks. I'm not suggesting that the ukrainians use nuclear. Whoever uses nuclear first will be the pariah of the world and that Nation will be utterly destroyed by all the rest of the nations of the world. World is a different place in the United States use nuclear weapons to end world war II with Japan. Today the world would be totally against whoever does first strike. Let's hope Putin isn't crazy enough to do that.



Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons and their western partners have no interest in attacks inside Russia unless it's directly against the invasion effort.

Attacks against civilian target in Russia would only increase support for the invasion and Putin's regime, it's counter productive.


----------



## Stann (Dec 7, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons and their western partners have no interest in attacks inside Russia unless it's directly against the invasion effort.
> 
> Attacks against civilian target in Russia would only increase support for the invasion and Putin's regime, it's counter productive.


You and I cannot speak for the Ukrainian people. The horrors they have been through is unbelievable. They have the capability to strike Moscow. If they do, I wouldn't blame them. And it might have the opposite effect it might cause the Russian people to rise up finally and stop this insane war.


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## Ringo (Dec 8, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Zelensky stood his ground and refused evacuation offers when everyone presumed him dead man walking.
> He has near unanimous approval of his people


So did The Fuhrer of the Third Reich and his aryan people. Maybe it's time to put him on the cover of the "Time" again?


----------



## Ringo (Dec 8, 2022)

This is the real Person of the year for the last ten years. #FreeAssange, F*** "Time"!


----------



## Peace (Dec 8, 2022)

Dissident said:


> This thread isn’t about reasons why “Crimea has joined Russia” – it is the Russian wording for your “take-over”.
> 
> This question is not so simple as you have described “It would be like Mexico seizing Texas because it has a large population of ethnic Mexicans living there!”, “this has nothing to do with Ukrainian legislation” etc.
> 
> ...


Wow, you are truly ignorant as can be!

1. The majority is growing to be Hispanic in Texas, so with your premise Mexico can invade and claim that Texas or California belongs to them.

2. The disputed region was Ukraine and not Russia and the Ukraine had every right to invade and take it back but Russia did not have the right to take that disputed land first and then take more land and then even claim they had the right to all of Ukraine!

Yes, Putin want all of Ukraine!

3. This has to do with Putin wanting to put his own man in charge of the Ukraine so he can exploit the country, so let cut the bullshit and just admit this was a power grab by Putin and he wanted his own man in power and nothing more!


----------



## Ringo (Dec 8, 2022)




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## AntonToo (Dec 8, 2022)

Ringo said:


> So did The Fuhrer of the Third Reich and his aryan people. Maybe it's time to put him on the cover of the "Time" again?


…?? Fuhrer invaded and annexed other countries, claiming that ethnic Germans there need protection and that those lands are historically German.

Who is doing that today? Putin or Zelensky?

Think hard idiot, real hard.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 8, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> …?? Fuhrer invaded and annexed other countries, claiming that ethnic Germans there need protection and that those lands are historically German.
> Who is doing that today? Putin or Zelensky?
> Think hard idiot, real hard.


Cretin, when the USSR attacked Japan in August 1945, was he also an "aggressor" like Russia today? You stupid piece of shit


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 8, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Cretin, when the USSR attacked Japan in August 1945, was he also an "aggressor" like Russia today? You stupid piece of shit


USSR also invaded Poland together with Nazis, agreeing to split the country in 1939. So yes, absolutely USSR was an aggressor until they themselves were attacked by Nazis.

Japan invaded United States, who by 1945 was allied with USSR against the Axis countries.


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## Ringo (Dec 8, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> USSR also invaded Poland together with Nazis, agreeing to split the country in 1939. So yes, absolutely USSR was an aggressor until they themselves were attacked by Nazis.
> Japan invaded United States, who by 1945 was allied with USSR against the Axis countries.


The USSR crossed the border of Poland on September 17, when Poland ceased to exist as an independent state (on that day, the government of Poland fled to Romania). According to such a scoundrel as you, the USSR should have allowed Germany to occupy all of Poland and come closer to the center of the USSR? Fuck you. 
As for Japan, the USSR fulfilled its allied obligations to the minute. Stalin promised that war with Japan would be launched three months after the end of the war in Europe.   May 9 - August 9. 
Unlike the United States and Britain, which promised to launch a Second Front in Europe in 1942 and 1943  
By the way, if such a fool as you remember the invasion of Italy in 1943, then at the time of the end of the war, the Allied troops were still in Italy. Biiiiiiig help to Eastern front!


----------



## Stann (Dec 8, 2022)

Ringo said:


> So did The Fuhrer of the Third Reich and his aryan people. Maybe it's time to put him on the cover of the "Time" again?


The Fuhrer of the third Reich started his rreign of terror by invading peaceful Poland. putin invading the Ukraine, is a much better comparison to Hitler. You picked a very poor analogy. If anything Russia is the new third Reich.


----------



## Stann (Dec 8, 2022)

Ringo said:


> The USSR crossed the border of Poland on September 17, when Poland ceased to exist as an independent state (on that day, the government of Poland fled to Romania). According to such a scoundrel as you, the USSR should have allowed Germany to occupy all of Poland and come closer to the center of the USSR? Fuck you.
> As for Japan, the USSR fulfilled its allied obligations to the minute. Stalin promised that war with Japan would be launched three months after the end of the war in Europe.   May 9 - August 9.
> Unlike the United States and Britain, which promised to launch a Second Front in Europe in 1942 and 1943
> By the way, if such a fool as you remember the invasion of Italy in 1943, then at the time of the end of the war, the Allied troops were still in Italy. Biiiiiiig help to Eastern front!


Poland never cease to exist, it was just conquered and devastated by Russia. Ask the Polish people if they ever trust Russia again. Trust is earned by good acts not terrorism. After they regained their freedom from Russia, they joined NATO as soon as I could. Because they knew what an threat and enemy Russia was.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 8, 2022)

Ringo said:


> The USSR crossed the border of Poland on September 17, when Poland ceased to exist as an independent state (on that day, the government of Poland fled to Romania). According to such a scoundrel as you, the USSR should have allowed Germany to occupy all of Poland and come closer to the center of the USSR? Fuck you.
> As for Japan, the USSR fulfilled its allied obligations to the minute. Stalin promised that war with Japan would be launched three months after the end of the war in Europe.   May 9 - August 9.
> Unlike the United States and Britain, which promised to launch a Second Front in Europe in 1942 and 1943
> By the way, if such a fool as you remember the invasion of Italy in 1943, then at the time of the end of the war, the Allied troops were still in Italy. Biiiiiiig help to Eastern front!


Horseshit, Poland was invaded, so was Ukraine.

Full of shit Stalinist apologists like you just can't admit the obvious.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 8, 2022)

Stann said:


> invading peaceful Poland.


You're an illiterate idiot. "Peaceful Poland"? In the 1930s? How can anybody argue with idiots like you...


----------



## Stann (Dec 8, 2022)

Ringo said:


> You're an illiterate idiot. "Peaceful Poland"? In the 1930s? How can anybody argue with idiots like you...


I'm sure in your mind they were threatening Nazi Germany.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 9, 2022)

Ringo said:


>


I wonder if russians will ever understand, that communicating with ANY Western politician they should take into account that he is at best a liar, and at worst a criminal and a scoundrel? And of course, also a liar.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 9, 2022)

Stann said:


> I'm sure in your mind they were threatening Nazi Germany.


No, asshole. They planned and dreamed of defeating the USSR in alliance with Germany. But Hitler preferred to have рoles as slaves and cannon fodder, than allies. It is no accident, that Churchill called Poland of the 1930s the "Hyena of Europe".

"...In 1926, a military coup took place in Poland, as a result of which the dictatorial regime of Jozef Pilsudski, known in history as the rehabilitation regime, was established. After the coup, the role of parliament was reduced to a minimum, opposition to the Pilsudski regime was suppressed, and the Communist Party was banned. This state of affairs was enshrined in the Constitution of 1935, and in the next 4 years there was a struggle between the nationalist and centrist groups of supporters of the rehabilitation regime.

The Pilsudski regime had difficult relations with the USSR — Poland adhered to anti-Soviet positions in foreign policy, although the outbreak of a new war was unlikely, especially after the signing of the non-aggression pact in 1932. The consequence of the anti—Soviet position was rapprochement with Germany - in 1933, the Polish government instructed the Polish ambassador to Germany to inform Hitler that with the latter's coming to power, Polish-German relations improved, Polish officials also made it clear that they would take a pro-German position in a potential Soviet-German war and openly opposed the USSR's attempts to create a system of collective security in Europe, in particular, by jointly refusing with Germany to sign the 1934 Eastern Pact..."

"..The fascinating process of the partition of Czechoslovakia itself began not in September 1938, but a few months earlier. A simple chronology of events speaks about the role of Poland in the partition of Czechoslovakia much more convincingly than any logical calculations.

On January 14, Adolf Hitler is visited by the Polish Foreign Minister (actually the second person of the state) Jozef Beck. After that, Germany begins to put forward demands for the observance of the rights of Sudeten Germans, and Poland — for the observance of the rights of Tesin Poles. Both Berlin and Warsaw threaten Czechoslovakia with military actions, and at that time the "muscles" of Poland seem to many more impressive than the German ones.

In addition, the words of the Poles do not differ from the case: by order of the "Supreme Marshal" Edward Rydz-Smigly, in May 1938, three infantry divisions, a Greater Poland Cavalry brigade and a motorized brigade were concentrated in the area of Czech Tesin.

Moreover, in August, the paramilitarist "Volunteer Corps for the Liberation of Teshin" is being created. Simply put, these are militants who immediately deploy "disturbing actions". That is, they cross the border, attack Czech border guards and policemen, and then hide in Poland.
In the same August 1938, Jozef Beck showed himself not just as a loyal ally of Germany in the Czech issue, but also as a non-ordinary player on the geopolitical board of Europe. It is he who pushes in Berlin his plan for the final solution of the Czech question, according to which Tesin Silesia goes to Poland, Slovakia and Transcarpathian Rus — Hungary, the rest of the lands — Germany. That's exactly what happened afterwards.

In September 1938, the Polish "disturbing actions" on the border with the Czech Republic escalate into an almost full-fledged war. Hand grenades and machine guns are used. The account of the Czech victims goes to dozens, if not hundreds: in the Czech town of Konska on September 25, two buildings burned down, which were pelted with grenades. At the same time, the Frishtat railway station burned down.

On September 29, 1938, a meeting dedicated to the Sudetenland question opens in Munich. Poland does not participate directly in the meeting itself: the "big guys" are sorting it out there. But Polish diplomats in London and Paris are putting all their might on their English and French colleagues: "We insist on an equal approach to solving the problems of the German Sudetenland and the Polish Tesin!"

On October 2, 1938, Polish troops completely occupied Teszyn during Operation Zaluzhye. Previously, an agreement was reached between Berlin and Warsaw on the demarcation line between Polish and German troops.
On October 9, "Gazeta Polska" publishes an editorial: "The road open to us to a sovereign, leading role in our part of Europe requires enormous efforts in the near future." But the poles were allowed to "lead" Eastern Europe for only 11 months.


----------



## Stann (Dec 9, 2022)

Ringo said:


> I wonder if russians will ever understand, that communicating with ANY Western politician they should take into account that he is at best a liar, and at worst a criminal and a scoundrel? And of course, also a liar.


" These are just war games. I'm not going to invade the Ukraine. "- Putin.


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## Ringo (Dec 11, 2022)

Ringo said:


> I wonder if russians will ever understand, that communicating with ANY Western politician they should take into account that he is at best a liar, and at worst a criminal and a scoundrel? And of course, also a liar.


I.e. the words of Angela Merkel, that Germany, France and Ukraine signed Minsk agreements only to deceive Russia and none of them initially didn't intend to perform, and sanctions for failure to comply with(?!!) imposed on the Russian Federation?! The usual behavior of hypocritical scoundrels.


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## Stann (Dec 11, 2022)

Ringo said:


> I.e. the words of Angela Merkel, that Germany, France and Ukraine signed Minsk agreements only to deceive Russia and none of them initially didn't intend to perform, and sanctions for failure to comply with(?!!) imposed on the Russian Federation?! The usual behavior of hypocritical scoundrels.


Right ! Blame others for Russia's attacking the Ukraine. You are such a joke. How can anybody twist things that much. Putin said, " it's only war games. " Right before he invaded the Ukraine. Total liar, total madman, total thug, total war criminal. When the Russian people finally get rid of putin. Hanging wouldn't be enough, they need to hang him upside down and then quarter his body. While he still breathing. That sounds like justice to the end of a life of a lying, murdering, x-kgb thug.


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## Ringo (Dec 11, 2022)

Merkel's admission that Germany and other countries were not going to implement the Minsk Agreements became another nail in the coffin of Europe as a significant subject of international politics, where the same laws work as in human society.: If you keep your word, you are respected.
Germany and France must pay compensation to the residents of Donbass.

The current situation in Ukraine is a consequence of the false policy of the leaders of these states.
First in 2014.The Foreign Ministers of Germany and France signed a document between the Ukrainian authorities and the opposition as guarantors of the peaceful development of events.
It all ended with a coup d'etat in Kiev and the genocide of the 6 million population of Donbass.
Then Germany and France participated in the conclusion of the Minsk agreements.
But, as Merkel said, no one planned to fulfill them, calling it an attempt to give Ukraine time for its militarization.
A pre-planned failure to fulfill the obligations assumed as a result of signing an international agreement is not only a loss of trust, but also a crime for which the signatories of the Minsk agreements — Merkel, Hollande and Poroshenko  must answer.
The people of Europe need to know to whom they are indebted: the lack of heat, electricity, huge inflation, closing businesses. Merkel's confessions Germany and France bear moral and material responsibility for what is happening in Ukraine.


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## Ringo (Dec 11, 2022)

Stann said:


> Right ! Blame others for Russia's attacking the Ukraine. You are such a joke. How can anybody twist things that much. Putin said, " it's only war games. " Right before he invaded the Ukraine.


Lying freak, Ukraine was given every opportunity to avoid war. In response to the concentration of its gangs (110 thousand) on the borders of Donbass, Russia recognized (finally, it should have been done in 2014) Lugansk  and Donetsk republics as independent states. Two days before the start of the operation. 
And how did nazi Ukraine respond? She not only intensified the shelling of Donbass, but also began active hostilities on the borders. The nazis only understand the language of force. Just like their masters in the West.


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## AntonToo (Dec 11, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Lying freak, Ukraine was given every opportunity to avoid war. In response to the concentration of its gangs (110 thousand) on the borders of Donbass, Russia recognized (finally, it should have been done in 2014) Lugansk  and Donetsk republics as independent states. Two days before the start of the operation.
> And how did nazi Ukraine respond? She not only intensified the shelling of Donbass, but also began active hostilities on the borders. The nazis only understand the language of force. Just like their masters in the West.


What the hell do you think Russia or America or any other country would do if another country recognizes their sovereign territory as "independent republics"?

They take their army if they have one and rightfully go reclaim their lands from invaders and separatists you dumb fucking idiot.

The oblivious nonsense Stalinist tools like you peddle makes my blood boil.


----------



## Stann (Dec 11, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Merkel's admission that Germany and other countries were not going to implement the Minsk Agreements became another nail in the coffin of Europe as a significant subject of international politics, where the same laws work as in human society.: If you keep your word, you are respected.
> Germany and France must pay compensation to the residents of Donbass.
> 
> The current situation in Ukraine is a consequence of the false policy of the leaders of these states.
> ...


The world is done with Russia's tactics, there are now recognized as the terrorist State they always have been. They have absolutely no credibility.


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## Ringo (Dec 11, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> What the hell do you think Russia or America or any other country would do if another country recognizes their sovereign territory as "independent republics"?


A normal country would never support an armed coup and the overthrow of a legitimately elected president, committed by nazi militants in the interests of the oligarchs.
And these same normal countries will  support people, who wished to separate from the nazis, who seized power by force and with the support of not-normal states. Which, by the way, includes the United States, which, together with Ukraine, has repeatedly voted in UN against prohibition of glorification of nazism. You hypocritical bastard.


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## ESay (Dec 11, 2022)

The question in the OP isn't relevant now. People on both sides have their views and reasoning and there is no point to bring them together.

But what reality says is that Ukraine should be a threat to Russia. Or more properly, its armed forces should be in such a shape that the Russians should think twice before starting similar silly war.

It is the only mean to ensure Ukraine's and Eastern Europe's security.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 11, 2022)

Ringo said:


> A normal country would never support an armed coup and the overthrow of a legitimately elected president, committed by nazi militants in the interests of the oligarchs.


Bullshit, Russia's blitz to Kiev was SPECIFICALLY to remove dully elected President Zelensky and behead Ukraine's leadership. 

And internally to Russia do recall how many times a new party was elected by the people? ZERO times because there is no true democracy, THEY WERE ALL REMOVED or died while in office.

Maybe China should have declared Dagestan "independent" because Gorbachev or Yeltsin got removed?

Ukraine's internal matters don't give any right for Russia to any Ukrainian territories.


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## Stann (Dec 11, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> What the hell do you think Russia or America or any other country would do if another country recognizes their sovereign territory as "independent republics"?
> 
> They take their army if they have one and rightfully go reclaim their lands from invaders and separatists you dumb fucking idiot.
> 
> The oblivious nonsense Stalinist tools like you peddle makes my blood boil.


You are trying to talk sense into an insane, radicalized individual. And the way he tries to defend Russia's attack on the Ukraine is absolutely ridiculous and undefendable. He probably isn't even an American he's probably a Russian and if he is a Russian he's probably a cyber terrorist. At any rate the world can no longer trust the Russian state at all. They have absolutely no credibility. They promote terrorism and cyber terrorism, attempting to hold the whole world at Ransom. It's an absolutely ridiculous situation. I hope the Ukraine gets a lot more powerful and starts bombing Moscow and levels of the damn place. Then and only then the people of Russia rise up and get rid of these corrupt leaders.


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## José (Dec 11, 2022)

> Originally posted by *Esay*
> But what reality says is that Ukraine should be a threat to Russia. Or more properly, its armed forces should be in such a shape that the Russians should think twice before starting similar silly war.



I'm all for countries with powerful neighbors like Mexico and Ukraine having powerful armies to protect themselves... provided they do it *ON THEIR DIME*.

If they decide to do it on the cheap, allowing foreign military alliances to use their territories to advance the geopolitical interests of foreign powers, they become fair targets for american and russian bombs.


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## AntonToo (Dec 11, 2022)

José said:


> I'm all for countries with powerful neighbors like Mexico and Ukraine having powerful armies to protect themselves... provided they do it *ON THEIR DIME*.
> 
> If they decide to do it on the cheap, allowing foreign military alliances to use their territories to advance the geopolitical interests of foreign powers, they become fair targets for american and russian bombs.


Wtf?

What army was Ukraine "given" before Russians started bombing them?


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## José (Dec 11, 2022)

> Originally posted by *AntonToo*
> Wtf?
> 
> What army was Ukraine "given" before Russians started bombing them?



Ukraine is just the most recent episode of this geopolitical soap opera, Anton.

Russia already had a legitimate casus belli when NATO did move "*one inch eastward*" almost 25 years ago.


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## Stann (Dec 11, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Wtf?
> 
> What army was Ukraine "given" before Russians started bombing them?


Russia started undermining the government of the Ukraine in 2014. Victor Yanukovych where's basically the Russian installed puppet government in the Ukraine and he gave away Crimea with no fight. That was also the year that the Russian government started arming separatist terroristic militia groups in the Donbass region. The Ukraine did not have an independent leader until Zelinsky was elected in 2019 by a Landslide victory,; 73% of the ukrainians voted for him. The former leader Petro Poroshenko only got 24% of the vote. Russia probably started this campaign against the Ukraine subvertly as soon as they became independent in 1991.


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## Stann (Dec 11, 2022)

José said:


> Ukraine is just the most recent episode of this geopolitical soap opera, Anton.
> 
> Russia already had a legitimate casus belli when NATO did move "*one inch eastward*" almost 25 years ago.


That wasn't Russia that was the Soviet Union.


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## AntonToo (Dec 11, 2022)

José said:


> Ukraine is just the most recent episode of this geopolitical soap opera, Anton.
> 
> Russia already had a legitimate casus belli when NATO did move "*one inch eastward*" almost 25 years ago.



So wtf were you talking about when you said Russia was justified to bomb Ukraine because supposedly someone paid for their army for them?

Something tells me your name is not Jose.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 11, 2022)

José said:


> I'm all for countries with powerful neighbors like Mexico and Ukraine having powerful armies to protect themselves... provided they do it *ON THEIR DIME*.
> 
> If they decide to do it on the cheap, allowing foreign military alliances to use their territories to advance the geopolitical interests of foreign powers, they become fair targets for american and Russian bombs.


The only foreign military alliance that is trying to use the territories of Ukraine to advance their geopolitical ambitions is the Russian Federation.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 11, 2022)

José said:


> Ukraine is just the most recent episode of this geopolitical soap opera, Anton.
> 
> Russia already had a legitimate casus belli when NATO did move "*one inch eastward*" almost 25 years ago.


Bullshit.

 Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”









						Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”
					

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...




					www.brookings.edu


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## Stann (Dec 11, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”
> 
> ...


When Russia dissolved the Soviet Union I even believe that nato and the United States gave Russia favored nation status in hopes that they would become a true democracy but unfortunately the Old guard KGB thugs and other wealthy Kremlin types had enough power to continue the old corrupt regime. So Russia never had a chance to truly become an independent democratic great nation.


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## José (Dec 11, 2022)

> Originally posted by *AntonToo*
> So wtf were you talking about when you said Russia was justified to bomb Ukraine because supposedly someone paid for their army for them?
> 
> Something tells me your name is not Jose.



I was referring to eastern european countries as a whole.

Are you going to deny the historic fact that allowing their territories to serve as bases for foreign interests in exchange for security from Russia was/is the main geopolitical goal of almost all eastern european countries including Ukraine since at least 2002 when Kuchma explicitly said it was an ukrainian national priority (that was eventually enshrined in the constitution)?

NATO got away with 25 years of expansion not out of the kindness of Russia's heart nor its admirable patience, I give you that... but simply because the country was too weak to do anything but complain.


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## José (Dec 11, 2022)

> Originally posted by *toomuchtime*
> Bullshit.
> 
> Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. …



Was this the same Gorbachev who in other interviews stated that Baker said exactly that line?

Seems like a russian politician terribly afraid to go down in History as what he really was, a weak leader.

You're right no documents were signed... That's why many staunchly anti-communist russians agree with Putin that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest political catastrophe of the 20th century.

The problem was not the end of the country in and of itself but the fact that it *collapsed* instead of being methodically, orderly *dismantled*, leaving Russia without any written, formal security guarantees regarding NATO.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 11, 2022)

Stann said:


> When Russia dissolved the Soviet Union I even believe that nato and the United States gave Russia favored nation status in hopes that they would become a true democracy but unfortunately the Old guard KGB thugs and other wealthy Kremlin types had enough power to continue the old corrupt regime. So Russia never had a chance to truly become an independent democratic great nation.


I disagree.  When the USSR dissolved itself, Russia did have a democracy for several years, and despite the fact it had then one of the fastest growing economies in the world, in 1999 the Russian people elected Putin to be PM.  I think they got the government they wanted, and so far, I don't see any evidence they would like to turn to western values.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 11, 2022)

José said:


> Was this the same Gorbachev who in other interviews stated that Baker said exactly that line?
> 
> Seems like a russian politician terribly afraid to go down in History as what he really was, a weak leader.
> 
> ...


You continue to post nothing but lies.  There were no Gorbachev interviews in which he said he said he received assurances NATO would not accept eastern European countries as members.  What makes you want to post such lies?


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## AntonToo (Dec 11, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> In 1999 the Russian people elected Putin to be PM.  I think they got the government they wanted


No they didn't. Yeltsin was forced out after coup and Putin was installed as the acting President.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 11, 2022)

José said:


> I was referring to eastern european countries as a whole.
> 
> Are you going to deny the historic fact that allowing their territories to serve as bases for foreign interests in exchange for security from Russia was/is the main geopolitical goal of almost all eastern european countries including Ukraine since at least 2002 when Kuchma explicitly said it was an ukrainian national priority (that was eventually enshrined in the constitution)?
> 
> NATO got away with 25 years of expansion not out of the kindness of Russia's heart nor its admirable patience, I give you that... but simply because the country was too weak to do anything but complain.


What makes you want to post such nonsense?  All members of NATO have one vote and all decisions must be unanimous, so your suggestion that European nations are dominated by the US is obviously false.  The real question is why did the eastern European countries want to join NATO?  The answer, as you know, is that these countries were conquered by Russia after WWI have held captive for nearly half a century and when finally released, they both hated and feared Russia.  

Far from trying to weaken Russia, after the dissolution of the USSR, the US provided financial assistance to the new state of Russia in the amount of $24 billion ($50 billion in today's dollars) and Russia prospered so well from US and EU assistance that by 2001, it had one of the fastest growing economies in the world.  If not for Putin's mismanagement, today Russia would be approaching European standards of living.  

Since 1991, there has been no US/European effort to weaken Russia, but one to prevent Russian imperialism and that is what we are seeing now in Ukraine.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 11, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> No they didn't. Yeltsin was forced out after coup and Putin was installed as the acting President.


Before that he was elected PM.


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## Stann (Dec 12, 2022)

José said:


> I was referring to eastern european countries as a whole.
> 
> Are you going to deny the historic fact that allowing their territories to serve as bases for foreign interests in exchange for security from Russia was/is the main geopolitical goal of almost all eastern european countries including Ukraine since at least 2002 when Kuchma explicitly said it was an ukrainian national priority (that was eventually enshrined in the constitution)?
> 
> NATO got away with 25 years of expansion not out of the kindness of Russia's heart nor its admirable patience, I give you that... but simply because the country was too weak to do anything but complain.


Once Eastern European nations finally got their freedom from Russia they quickly aligned with the West because they did not want to be reabsorbed by Russia. Overall the expense with Russia was a very bad one. There was no love in the relationship only domination and abuse.


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## Stann (Dec 12, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Before that he was elected PM.


And we all know about how Russian elections run. With opposition forces being murdered or imprisoned. Nothing changed, the corrupt government lives on.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 12, 2022)

Stann said:


> And we all know about how Russian elections run. With opposition forces being murdered or imprisoned. Nothing changed, the corrupt government lives on.


In 1999, there was still a large measure of democracy in Russia, but since taking power, Putin changed all of that.  My point is, there were very few complaints from the Russian people about the war in Ukraine until Russia started losing, so there is no reason to assume the Russian people are not of the same mind as Putin.


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## AntonToo (Dec 12, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Before that he was elected PM.


No he was not elected, he was appointed.


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## Ringo (Dec 12, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> The oblivious nonsense Stalinist tools like you peddle makes my blood boil.


When the Ukrainian Nazis shelled Donbass for 8 years. didn't your blood boil? No? Well then


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## José (Dec 12, 2022)

> Originally posted by *Stann*
> Once Eastern European nations finally got their freedom from Russia they quickly aligned with the West because they did not want to be reabsorbed by Russia.



Then show us any indication given by Russia that she intended to invade any of her neighbors since the end of the SU. You won't find anything. What you'll find are the first meetings and discussions in Europe about the need to expand NATO starting as early as 1992.

The desperation of the super patriotic american clown to create a grotesque distortion of History in which NATO expansion was a reaction to russian expansionism is so great he even loses any scrupule to rape the recent history of Europe.

Russia extended an olive branch to eastern Europe and the West dismantling the Warsaw Pact, the Iron Curtain and the SU without bloodshed and got revenge, rancor and cold war revanchism in return.

The idea that an individual or a nation should be penalized for the possibility that they may commit a crime in the future is an aberration of thought and it's exactly what you're doing to Russia, Stann.


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## José (Dec 12, 2022)

At this point you may say:

*"José, you're being terribly naive...

International relations are not based on "fairness". Countries don't "reciprocate" acts of "kindness", there's no such thing as "gratitude" in the relationship among nations.

After the collapse of the communist bloc, a giant power vacuum formed in eastern Europe and the West was eager to fill that vacuum to increase its geopolitical weight and isolate Russia without any "moral consideration" about Russia's historic, century-long fear of being militarily surrounded by western Europe and more recently by the US.

Countries just like Nature abhors a (political and military) vaccum and don't give a damn about showing gratitude towards other nations."*

Fair enough...

The famous realist school of international relations. It's somewhat ironic to see the realist school being invoked by countries that claim to be the heirs of the european Enlightenment, nations that label themselves as "liberal democracies" but let's leave this consideration aside.

The West decided to maintain and expand the european security arrangement of the Cold War *after* the end of the Cold War. It decided to treat Russia as an enemy after the collapse of the Soviet Union to advance its geopolitical goals.

But power politics is a two way street.

The West cannot impose on Russia the security structure of the Cold War and then complain when Russia finally says:

*OK... if Cold War is what you want... Cold War is what you'll get.*

You must be careful what you wish for.

People who support the military encirclement of European Russia cannot complain when the russian wrecking ball is finally put to work in Ukraine.

Either the realist school of international relations (aka, the law of the jungle) is legitimate for both sides or it is illegitmate for all. You can't be selective.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 12, 2022)

Ringo said:


> When the Ukrainian Nazis shelled Donbass for 8 years. didn't your blood boil? No? Well then


No dumbass, it didn't.

What boiled my blood was Russian annexation of Crimea, brainwashing and actively arming separatists in eastern Ukraine that was the root cause of the fighting that caused collateral civilian deaths.

Territories retaken under Ukranian controll lived a peaceful life, just like the rest of Ukraine would if Russia minded the many many problems in their own fucking borders instead of trying to break down Ukraine into submission.


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## AntonToo (Dec 12, 2022)

José said:


> I was referring to eastern european countries as a whole.


Aaand? What about them?

Who is paying for their armies that you think Russia has a right to bomb?

Poland maybe? Litva perhaps? You think Russia has a right to bomb them since they are part of NATO and may get common defense budget funding?

Maybe you should just stop posting half-baked bullshit and go take some time to think things out.


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## Ringo (Dec 12, 2022)

José said:


> Either the realist school of international relations (aka, the law of the jungle) is legitimate for both sides or it is illegitmate for all. You can't be selective.


Yes, they can! Because hypocrisy is a natural property of American political ideology. 
Since birth, hypocrisy has been embedded in the politics and ideology of the United States. And at the highest level. People owning slaves talked about personal freedom... It's like a cannibal preaching vegetarianism to those who he eats.


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## Ringo (Dec 12, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> No dumbass, it didn't.
> 
> What boiled my blood was Russian annexation of Crimea, brainwashing and actively arming separatists in eastern Ukraine that was the root cause of the fighting that caused collateral civilian deaths.


You're a complete scum. Hypocrite fascist scum.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 12, 2022)

Ringo said:


> You're a complete scum. Hypocrite fascist scum.


Yep, all you can do is lash out since you have no rational refute that Russian intrusion into Ukraine was the root cause of the 8 year hostilities in Ukraine and current war that has already directly caused 400,000+ civilian and military deaths.

Putin means war, death and decay - this is what morons like you signed up for and will keep supporting all the way to total implosion of Russia, just as Nazi did all the way to total destruction and multi-generational shame for Germany.


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## Ringo (Dec 12, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> , just as Nazi did all the way to total destruction and multi-generational shame for Germany.


Only a stupid bastard can remember the nazis of Germany without connection with the ukrainian nazis. 
But you are a stupid bastard


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## AntonToo (Dec 12, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Only a stupid bastard can remember the nazis of Germany without connection with the ukrainian nazis.
> But you are a stupid bastard


Nazis are not known for defending their borders, their infamy is invading and annexing other countries.

Ukraine didn't invade and annex other countries, Russia is the country that's doing that.

Time to take a hard look in the mirror.


----------



## ESay (Dec 12, 2022)

José said:


> I'm all for countries with powerful neighbors like Mexico and Ukraine having powerful armies to protect themselves... provided they do it *ON THEIR DIME*.
> 
> If they decide to do it on the cheap, allowing foreign military alliances to use their territories to advance the geopolitical interests of foreign powers, they become fair targets for american and russian bombs.


Listen what Putin says, he basically denies that Ukraine can exist as a real state. And this attitude is quite common among the Russians. Ukraine is an 'artificial state' that occupies historically Russian lands that should be returned. 

Are such feelings toward Mexico common between the Americans and American political elite? Something tells me that no. Don't try to base your opinion on false comparisons.


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## Stann (Dec 12, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> In 1999, there was still a large measure of democracy in Russia, but since taking power, Putin changed all of that.  My point is, there were very few complaints from the Russian people about the war in Ukraine until Russia started losing, so there is no reason to assume the Russian people are not of the same mind as Putin.


What about the thousands of protesters. If thousands are protesting there are millions that are of the same mind as a protesters but don't have the guts to do it. And those protests have been going on since the beginning of the war.


----------



## Stann (Dec 12, 2022)

ESay said:


> Listen what Putin says, he basically denies that Ukraine can exist as a real state. And this attitude is quite common among the Russians. Ukraine is an 'artificial state' that occupies historically Russian lands that should be returned.
> 
> Are such feelings toward Mexico common between the Americans and American political elite? Something tells me that no. Don't try to base your opinion on false comparisons.


The Russian leadership cares little about its own people, and absolutely none about the ukrainians. This is a land grab so the Russian leadership can feel better about themselves and their country. They would kill off all the Ukrainian people and replace them with Russians if they could get away with it in today's world.


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## Ringo (Dec 12, 2022)




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## Stann (Dec 12, 2022)

Ringo said:


>


No comparison. You are being ridiculous again. This was done to protect the people, a public health measure. What Russia and Iran do to their people, is done to try to protect the corrupt governments not the people.


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## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> I disagree.  When the USSR dissolved itself, Russia did have a democracy for several years, and despite the fact it had then one of the fastest growing economies in the world, in 1999 the Russian people elected Putin to be PM.  I think they got the government they wanted, and so far, I don't see any evidence they would like to turn to western values.


I don't believe the Russian people got what they wanted because their democracy was totally destroyed sorry putin.


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## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


So the whole reason the Russians took over Crimea is because elderly wealthier Russians liked living out the rest of their lives in a warm climate by the sea. Then the Russians used much the same justification to stir up trouble in the Donbass region among ethnic Russians. Even helping create, train, supply with weapons and support the regional militias. This is nothing more than a land grab by Russia to make the wealthy and powerful feel good about themselves. The single act of taking the Crimea away from the Ukraine pitted the Ukrainian people against Russia and that's why they look to the West and true democracies. Taking Crimes was the biggest mistake the Russians made. The only comparison I could think of would be Canada taking over Florida because a lot of elderly and wealthy Canadians choose to live there because of the warmth and inviting climate.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> So the whole reason the Russians took over Crimea is because elderly wealthier Russians liked living out the rest of their lives in a warm climate by the sea. Then the Russians used much the same justification to stir up trouble in the Donbass region among ethnic Russians. Even helping create, train, supply with weapons and support the regional militias. This is nothing more than a land grab by Russia to make the wealthy and powerful feel good about themselves. The single act of taking the Crimea away from the Ukraine pitted the Ukrainian people against Russia and that's why they look to the West and true democracies. Taking Crimes was the biggest mistake the Russians made. The only comparison I could think of would be Canada taking over Florida because a lot of elderly and wealthy Canadians choose to live there because of the warmth and inviting climate.


If you knew history, you’d know Russia has controlled the Crimea since Catherine the Great. Ever heard of her?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> I don't believe the Russian people got what they wanted because their democracy was totally destroyed sorry putin.


What disturbs me is the apparent enthusiasm with which the Russian people embraced the invasion of Ukraine until Russia started losing.  Democracy is just a western concept to most of them but a fierce nationalism and a distrust of the rest of the world is the reality they see since WWII, and I suspect they would rather have a militaristic leader like Putin who promises to protect them than risk democratic processes to find the right leader.

Think about what Democracy means.  It means the state exists to serve the needs of the people, but in countries like Russia, the founding premise is that the people are there to serve the needs of the state.  Until the Russians reject that premise, I don't think  there will be much change  in Russia.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> What disturbs me is the apparent enthusiasm with which the Russian people embraced the invasion of Ukraine until Russia started losing.  Democracy is just a western concept to most of them but a fierce nationalism and a distrust of the rest of the world is the reality they see since WWII, and I suspect they would rather have a militaristic leader like Putin who promises to protect them than risk democratic processes to find the right leader.
> 
> Think about what Democracy means.  It means the state exists to serve the needs of the people, but in countries like Russia, the founding premise is that the people are there to serve the needs of the state.  Until the Russians reject that premise, I don't think  there will be much change  in Russia.


If Putin is a militarist leader, what does that make every potus from LBJ to the present?


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> So the whole reason the Russians took over Crimea is because elderly wealthier Russians liked living out the rest of their lives in a warm climate by the sea. Then the Russians used much the same justification to stir up trouble in the Donbass region among ethnic Russians. Even helping create, train, supply with weapons and support the regional militias. This is nothing more than a land grab by Russia to make the wealthy and powerful feel good about themselves. The single act of taking the Crimea away from the Ukraine pitted the Ukrainian people against Russia and that's why they look to the West and true democracies. Taking Crimes was the biggest mistake the Russians made. The only comparison I could think of would be Canada taking over Florida because a lot of elderly and wealthy Canadians choose to live there because of the warmth and inviting climate.


There is also the Sevastopol base that Russia leased from Ukraine. They would 100% lose the lease as soon as new gov got into power post Maidan.



toomuchtime_ said:


> What disturbs me is the apparent enthusiasm with which the Russian people embraced the invasion of Ukraine until Russia started losing.  Democracy is just a western concept to most of them but a fierce nationalism and a distrust of the rest of the world is the reality they see since WWII, and I suspect they would rather have a militaristic leader like Putin who promises to protect them than risk democratic processes to find the right leader.
> 
> Think about what Democracy means.  It means the state exists to serve the needs of the people, but in countries like Russia, the founding premise is that the people are there to serve the needs of the state.  Until the Russians reject that premise, I don't think  there will be much change  in Russia.



They were worked up to it for many years.

Almost everyone turns on their State Putin Vision at 8pm and gets loaded up with whatever it is Kremlin wants them to belive, which was most often some bs about Ukraine.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 13, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> There is also the Sevastopol base that Russia leased from Ukraine. They would 100% lose the lease as soon as new gov got into power post Maidan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, they have been prepared for it for centuries, under the Czars, under the communists and, except for a few years in the 1990's, under the Putin government.  There are two competing narratives here.  

One is that Russians in Russia are just like the people in the western democracies but they have been tricked by some bad people who took away all their rights and forced them to do evil things but with very little protest from the Russian people.  

The other narrative is that Russian culture dating back hundreds of years predisposed the Russian people to find a sense of security in an autocratic government that told them they were surrounded by enemies and the only way they could be safe was to control or destroy every country around them, and that to accomplish this, they must sacrifice any feelings of having individual rights in favor of the collective rights of the state.  

It is not just coincidence that the revolutions in western Europe led to democracy and a strong sense of individual rights, and the revolution in Russia led to another autocratic form of government.  Russian culture has never supported any sense of individual rights and the Russian people have always seemed fine with that.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 13, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> No, they have been prepared for it for centuries, under the Czars, under the communists and, except for a few years in the 1990's, under the Putin government.  There are two competing narratives here.
> 
> One is that Russians in Russia are just like the people in the western democracies but they have been tricked by some bad people who took away all their rights and forced them to do evil things but with very little protest from the Russian people.
> 
> ...


I'm talking about the support for the war.

They are operating on alt-facts.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 13, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> I'm talking about the support for the war.
> 
> They are operating on alt-facts.


If you don't have a sense of your individual rights and believe you must support the collective rights of the nation, which is the case in Russia, then anything the government tells you is ok with you.  When the government tells you that if you call the war in Ukraine a war instead of a special military operation you are a national security risk and you belong in prison if you do it and you don't feel outraged, clearly anything the government tells you is ok with you.  

Democracy is not just about voting; it is about believing the government exists to serve your needs and you have every right to criticize the government.  That sense of entitlement does not exist for most Russian people.  They are profoundly different from us.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> If you knew history, you’d know Russia has controlled the Crimea since Catherine the Great. Ever heard of her?


That's the key word, controlled, not owned. Crimea clearly lies within Ukrainian national boundaries. Russia is approximately 750 mi to the north. They do not have a legitimate claim to Crimea, they never did.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> That's the key word, controlled, not owned. Crimea clearly lies within Ukrainian national boundaries. Russia is approximately 750 mi to the north. They do not have a legitimate claim to Crimea, they never did.


You don’t the history.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> You don’t the history.


I do know the history of the Ukraine, the history of its people and its lands. I do know that they were dominated by other people's most of their history that doesn't matter. The national boundaries do matter.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

Dissident said:


> Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).
> 
> But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).
> 
> ...


Wow, we should attack Canada where most in some providence’s have the same ethnicity as the neighboring states in the US……strange, dude.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> You don’t the history.


Texas has a history with Mexico, maybe we should turn it over to them.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> I do know the history of the Ukraine, the history of its people and its lands. I do know that they were dominated by other people's most of their history that doesn't matter. The national boundaries do matter.


Then you must have missed the part where Crimea which had been part of Russia for centuries was given to the Soviet republic of Ukraine by Kruschev, and it voted to return to Russia after the Obama/Nuland coup. 

Apparently you don’t believe in democracy.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Texas has a history with Mexico, maybe we should turn it over to them.


You too don’t know anything.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Then you must have missed the part where Crimea which had been part of Russia for centuries was given to the Soviet republic of Ukraine by Kruschev, and it voted to return to Russia after the Obama/Nuland coup.
> 
> Apparently you don’t believe in democracy.


I I didn't miss a thing, besides the Russians, throughout history the ukrainians have been dominated by the golden horde ( mongols ), the crimean Khanate, the grand duchy of Lithuania, and the crown King of Poland. Just like the Polish people, they were caught in the middle between powerful opponents and changed hands many times now they find the other freedom and have a right to their national boundaries. Russia has no say over Ukrainian lands no matter how long they occupied it for. There are others who occupied it for longer.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> You too don’t know anything.


It is you her pushing this erroneous agenda.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Then you must have missed the part where Crimea which had been part of Russia for centuries was given to the Soviet republic of Ukraine by Kruschev, and it voted to return to Russia after the Obama/Nuland coup.
> 
> Apparently you don’t believe in democracy.


Where did Israel belong before it became independent ? 


gipper said:


> You too don’t know anything.


I know you’re just making up shit.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Where did Israel belong before it became independent ?
> 
> I know you’re just making up shit.


So the people of Crimea who voted to return to Russia, should by mass murdered and forced to return to Ukraine. 

You are a murderous authoritarian.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> It is you her pushing this erroneous agenda.


Lol. Silly dumb shit. You know nothing. Stop posting.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Where did Israel belong before it became independent ?
> 
> I know you’re just making up shit.


Victor Yanukougnov / Yankukoych ? Was a pro Russian leader in the Ukraine who allowed the Russians to retake Crimea from the ukrainians in 2014. A few months later the Ukrainian people rose up against him and the Congress voted in a pro-western government embracing freedom. Unfortunately Russia was doing its nasty undercover garbage in the eastern Ukraine causing more unrest there and thus we have the current situation. It's all because of Russia's meddling  in Ukrainian affairs.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. Silly dumb shit. You know nothing. Stop posting.


That would be you you're an idiot and you're probably not even an American you're probably just from Russian cyber terrorists posting on here, trying to promote the indefensible Russian stance on the Ukraine and it's lands. All of them need to be returned to the Ukraine, and Russia is going to have to pay trillions of dollars in retribution to Ukraine for what it's done to their Nation.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. Silly dumb shit. You know nothing. Stop posting.


He gotcha good.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> Victor Yanukougnov / Yankukoych ? Was a pro Russian leader in the Ukraine who allowed the Russians to retake Crimea from the ukrainians in 2014. A few months later the Ukrainian people rose up against him and the Congress voted in a pro-western government embracing freedom. Unfortunately Russia was doing its nasty undercover garbage in the eastern Ukraine causing more unrest there and thus we have the current situation. It's all because of Russia's meddling  in Ukrainian affairs.


Again you know nothing. They voted to return to Russia. Crimea contains nearly 80% ethnic Russians asshole propagandist liar. 

Are you a Nazi too?


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol. Silly dumb shit. You know nothing. Stop posting.


You’re attempting to subvert free will.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Again you know nothing. They voted to return to Russia. Crimea contains nearly 80% ethnic Russians asshole propagandist liar.
> 
> Are you a Nazi too?


No but you might be. There's something very wrong with you if you're trying to defend Russia in this case.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Again you know nothing. They voted to return to Russia. Crimea contains nearly 80% ethnic Russians asshole propagandist liar.
> 
> Are you a Nazi too?


And Texas is what percent ethnic Mexican ?


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> That would be you you're an idiot and you're probably not even an American you're probably just from Russian cyber terrorists posting on here, trying to promote the indefensible Russian stance on the Ukraine and it's lands. All of them need to be returned to the Ukraine, and Russia is going to have to pay trillions of dollars in retribution to Ukraine for what it's done to their Nation.


Yeah no American would ever want peace. 

Thinks a totally controlled dumb fuck.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> And Texas is what percent ethnic Mexican ?


I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before Mexico took it. 

Interesting.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Again you know nothing. They voted to return to Russia. Crimea contains nearly 80% ethnic Russians asshole propagandist liar.
> 
> Are you a Nazi too?


Like I said Victor yankovic whatever his name is was planted by the Russians. He went against the will of the Ukrainian people. That's why he was deposed. Now we just need Putin and his oligarchy friends deposed to Russia can become a real democracy like it should have been all along.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> Like I said Victor yankovic whatever his name is was planted by the Russians. He went against the will of the Ukrainian people. That's why he was deposed. Now we just need Putin and his oligarchy friends deposed to Russia can become a real democracy like it should have been all along.


You’re a Nazi for sure.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before Mexico took it.
> 
> Interesting.


I think you are mistaken…can’t tell what your point is. There was no US centuries before “Mexico took it.“ Try googling.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> I think you are mistaken…can’t tell what your point is. There was no US centuries before “Mexico took it.“ Try googling.


Then you don’t know Russia controlled Ukraine for centuries and it’s 80% ethnic Russians, who voted to return to Russia after O’s coup in 2014.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before Mexico took it.
> 
> Interesting.


Spanish missionaries first settled Texas, the same ones who settled Mexico. That clearly means according  to your logic  Texas should be  part of Mexico.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Then you must have missed the part where Crimea which had been part of Russia for centuries was given to the Soviet republic of Ukraine by Kruschev, and it voted to return to Russia after the Obama/Nuland coup.
> 
> Apparently you don’t believe in democracy.


You don't know history.  In 1991 and 1994 Russia recognized Crimea as part of Ukraine and the whole world recognizes it as part of Ukraine.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Then you don’t know Russia controlled Ukraine for centuries and it’s 80% ethnic Russians, who voted to return to Russia after O’s coup in 2014.


You are talking nonsense.  How can Russia run a  legal referendum in Crimea when the whole world recognizes Crimea as part of Ukraine?


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> You are talking nonsense.  How can Russia run a  legal referendum in Crimea when the whole world recognizes Crimea as part of Ukraine?


Yeah we just can’t allow the people to chose their government. That’s just too democratic. 

You sir are a fucking idiot.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yeah no American would ever want peace.
> 
> Thinks a totally controlled dumb fuck.


You're not pursuing peace, you're advocating continued tyranny. I hope you do realize the Ukrainian people and their language existed long before the Russians came into being.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> You're not pursuing peace, you're advocating continued tyranny. I hope you do realize the Ukrainian people and their language existed long before the Russians came into being.


You’re such a hypocrite. No doubt you support the USG’s numerous invasions all over the world, but you oppose Russia’s. Proving you’re a dupe of the crooked establishment.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Spanish missionaries first settled Texas, the same ones who settled Mexico. That clearly means according  to your logic  Texas should be  part of Mexico.


I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before it was given to Mexico by a dictator’s order. Plus I never knew Texans voted to return to the US after a coup in Mexico. 

We can’t debate if you don’t know the topic.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> You’re such a hypocrite. No doubt you support the USG’s numerous invasions all over the world, but you oppose Russia’s. Proving you’re a dupe of the crooked establishment.


Russia made a horrible mistake in doing this to the Ukraine. They should never be forgiven. They should never gain from these horrific Acts. They must pay.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before it was given to Mexico by a dictator’s order. Plus I never knew Texans voted to return to the US after a coup in Mexico.
> 
> We can’t debate if you don’t know the topic.


Spain controlled Mexico and Texas for nearly 300 years. Mexico did not become independent until 1821. Texas became independent from Mexico in 1836 and applied to be part of the United States in the same year. The US actually didn't want them at that time. It wasn't until John Tyler became president in 1843 that he encouraged the US to allow Texas to join the United States and they did in 1846. This story is completely different than the story between the Ukraine and Russia. Russia was an invader and conqueror. Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians needlessly, and they're at it again. What is there to respect. Nothing.


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> Spain controlled Mexico and Texas for nearly 300 years. Mexico did not become independent until 1821. Texas became independent from Mexico in 1836 and applied to be part of the United States in the same year. The US actually didn't want them at that time. It wasn't until John Tyler became president in 1843 that he encouraged the US to allow Texas to join the United States and they did in 1846. This story is completely different than the story between the Ukraine and Russia. Russia was an invader and conqueror. Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians needlessly, and they're at it again. What is there to respect. Nothing.


Lol.


----------



## Stann (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lol.


You are the only joke here. I don't mind if you keep laughing at yourself, it's no skin off my back


----------



## gipper (Dec 13, 2022)

Stann said:


> You are the only joke here. I don't mind if you keep laughing at yourself, it's no skin off my back


Lol


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 13, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> If you don't have a sense of your individual rights and believe you must support the collective rights of the nation, which is the case in Russia



Not really the case.

Mostly Russians feel powerless ("What can we do?") and apathetic ("I'm not a politician, they know better"), all that collective stuff has gone the way of communism in Russia.

That apathy is carefully cultured by the state that strikes a deal - we'll take care of the politics and economy, you just mind your own bussiness.

Putin could've given Crimea back to Ukraine instead of invading and 75%+ would fully support it, just as they supported the war. He is a politician, he knows better and TV tells me it's all good with no counterpoint.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 13, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Not really the case.
> 
> Mostly Russians feel powerless ("What can we do?") and apathetic ("I'm not a politician, they know better"), all that collective stuff has gone the way of communism in Russia.
> 
> ...


I strongly disagree.  The guiding principle in Russia is that the people exist to serve the needs of the state, not that the state exists to serve the needs of the people, and that's why the Russian people overwhelming support whatever the Russian government says; they simply don't believe they have to right to protest.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 13, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yeah we just can’t allow the people to chose their government. That’s just too democratic.
> 
> You sir are a fucking idiot.


Even you can't possibly be that stupid.  The Russian invasion of Crimea was illegal and nothing they have done there carries any legal weight.  The ballot the Russians provided in Crimea gave the people the choice of becoming independent or becoming part of the   Russian state; it did not provide the option of remaining part of Ukraine.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 13, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> I strongly disagree.  The guiding principle in Russia is that the people exist to serve the needs of the state, not that the state exists to serve the needs of the people, and that's why the Russian people overwhelming support whatever the Russian government says; they simply don't believe they have to right to protest.


Do you maybe watch their news and political shows? Maybe familiar with their recent opinions and how they talk about things?

No offense but you sound like someone who watched StarTrek.

If you are really interested in the Russian mindset I recommend you watch some of this guy's videos - he is deep in it.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Do you maybe watch their news and political shows? Maybe familiar with their recent opinions and how they talk about things?
> 
> No offense but you sound like someone who watched StarTrek.
> 
> If you are really interested in the Russian mindset I recommend you watch some of this guy's videos - he is deep in it.


I don't speak Russian so I'm limited in what I can watch of their TV shows, but I do observe English language news about the lack of protests about the horrors Russia is perpetrating in Ukraine and it is clear that nearly all of the protests and even complaints about the war have to do with the fact Russia is losing and not that Russia is otherwise wrong.  

A few centuries ago, all the countries of Europe and Russia lived under monarchies in which the there was little difference between the monarch and the state and the people had no rights and were seen by themselves and the government as existing only to serve the needs of the state.  In Europe, only gradually over a period of centuries did the premise change from the people serving the needs of the state to the state serving the needs of the people, but in Russia, that change never took place.  The relationship between the people and the state is the same in the minds of the Russia people and the government as it was under the Czars and the communists and it is under Putin's government.  There are no individual rights in Russia and the Russian people are not complaining about that.  In the US or Europe, if the government said you could go to prison for saying war instead of special military operation, the people would be throwing barricades up in the streets, but in Russia it seems perfectly natural to both the people and the government.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> If you don't have a sense of your individual rights and believe you must support the collective rights of the nation, which is the case in Russia, then anything the government tells you is ok with you.  When the government tells you that if you call the war in Ukraine a war instead of a special military operation you are a national security risk and you belong in prison if you do it and you don't feel outraged, clearly anything the government tells you is ok with you.
> 
> Democracy is not just about voting; it is about believing the government exists to serve your needs and you have every right to criticize the government.  That sense of entitlement does not exist for most Russian people.  They are profoundly different from us.


Learned behavior from years of oppression from their leaders.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> I don't speak Russian so I'm limited in what I can watch of their TV shows, but I do observe English language news about the lack of protests about the horrors Russia is perpetrating in Ukraine and it is clear that nearly all of the protests and even complaints about the war have to do with the fact Russia is losing and not that Russia is otherwise wrong.
> 
> A few centuries ago, all the countries of Europe and Russia lived under monarchies in which the there was little difference between the monarch and the state and the people had no rights and were seen by themselves and the government as existing only to serve the needs of the state.  In Europe, only gradually over a period of centuries did the premise change from the people serving the needs of the state to the state serving the needs of the people, but in Russia, that change never took place.  The relationship between the people and the state is the same in the minds of the Russia people and the government as it was under the Czars and the communists and it is under Putin's government.  There are no individual rights in Russia and the Russian people are not complaining about that.  In the US or Europe, if the government said you could go to prison for saying war instead of special military operation, the people would be throwing barricades up in the streets, but in Russia it seems perfectly natural to both the people and the government.


Any voice of protest against the Russian government is a threat to one's life. So the fact that thousands upon thousands have protested against this war speaks volumes. That means there are millions and millions that are against the war in Russia that are still afraid to speak out. As the situation in Russia worsens, and I don't see how it's going to get better because very soon the Ukraine is going to start attacking Russian infrastructure especially the electrical grid around the cities and the military bases of that Russia has. They are learning very well from what the Russians are doing to them.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> So the people of Crimea who voted to return to Russia, should by mass murdered and forced to return to Ukraine.
> 
> You are a murderous authoritarian.


That vote and those numbers were  fraudulent. As is the Russian-installed puppet-government. I'm sure the ukrainians will be a lot more reasonable to their own people than the Russians have been. Anyone who does not want to live under Ukrainian role can easily leave the country. They do not have the right to stay there and terrorize their fellow Ukrainians. The same choice should be given to the terrorists in the east. Cease and desist or leave, it's a simple choice. At least the ukrainians will give them a choice, the Russians never did.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Stann said:


> That vote and those numbers were  fraudulent. As is the Russian-installed puppet-government. I'm sure the ukrainians will be a lot more reasonable to their own people than the Russians have been. Anyone who does not want to live under Ukrainian role can easily leave the country. They do not have the right to stay there and terrorize their fellow Ukrainians. The same choice should be given to the terrorists in the east. Cease and desist or leave, it's a simple choice. At least the ukrainians will give them a choice, the Russians never did.


Crimea is ethnically Russian, voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia, and was part of Russia for centuries prior to Kruschev’s dictate. 

At any rate this war was provoked by NATO and the USG. They now prolong it by providing massive military weaponry in an effort to harm Russia. They have heinously prosecuted this war knowing Ukraine can’t win resulting in its total destruction.

You support them.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> Crimea is ethnically Russian, voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia, and was part of Russia for centuries prior to Kruschev’s dictate.
> 
> At any rate this war was provoked by NATO and the USG. They now prolong it by providing massive military weaponry in an effort to harm Russia. They have heinously prosecuted this war knowing Ukraine can’t win resulting in its total destruction.
> 
> You support them.


The only provocation for this war was putin's madness. There's no reasoning with insanity.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Stann said:


> The only provocation for this war was putin's madness. There's no reasoning with insanity.


If you’re just going to spout establishment talking points, just go do it somewhere else. This board is for intelligent thinking individuals.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> If you’re just going to spout establishment talking points, just go do it somewhere else. This board is for intelligent thinking individuals.


LOL, so you believe your intelligent too.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> If you’re just going to spout establishment talking points, just go do it somewhere else. This board is for intelligent thinking individuals.


One question, how valid do you consider the referendum votes in the occupied territories was ?


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Stann said:


> One question, how valid do you consider the referendum votes in the occupied territories was ?


As has been reported in western media since the Obama/Nuland coup of 2014, (you likely miss it) we know the Ukes have attacked eastern Ukraine killing some 14,000 people. Why would they do that?  It must be that eastern Ukraine (Donbass) must contain mostly ethnic Russians (also widely reported in western press).  Seems likely they would vote to leave the Uke Nazi regime trying to murder them. 

No?  Yes?


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> If you’re just going to spout establishment talking points, just go do it somewhere else. This board is for intelligent thinking individuals.


Of course you're not going to answer my question. Before the war the Russian ethnic populations in the two original occupied eastern Ukrainian regions were 38.6 % and 36 %.. During The invasion a quarter of the Ukrainian population fled the regions. Even with that, there's no way they could get the results they claim to get unless they lied. Also the referendum was not monitored by any outside groups to confirm its legitimacy. It was done by the Russians and their puppet governments that they established in the regions. They sent armed guards with the referendum gatherers. My big question is how many of the Russian soldiers voted in that referendum. Again, to increase the votes to anywhere near what they said they got, it had to be all of them. That is how big the Russian government is. Only the purposely blind cannot see this.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> As has been reported in western media since the Obama/Nuland coup of 2014, (you likely miss it) we know the Ukes have attacked eastern Ukraine killing some 14,000 people. Why would they do that?  It must be that eastern Ukraine (Donbass) must contain mostly ethnic Russians (also widely reported in western press).  Seems likely they would vote to leave the Uke Nazi regime trying to murder them.
> 
> No?  Yes?


I don't believe anything you said. It's all propaganda from Russia.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> As has been reported in western media since the Obama/Nuland coup of 2014, (you likely miss it) we know the Ukes have attacked eastern Ukraine killing some 14,000 people. Why would they do that?  It must be that eastern Ukraine (Donbass) must contain mostly ethnic Russians (also widely reported in western press).  Seems likely they would vote to leave the Uke Nazi regime trying to murder them.
> 
> No?  Yes?


Russia stirred up those ethnic Russians to start with and gave them weapons. They were terrorizing most of the population which was Ukrainian. What do you expect the Ukrainian government to do but fight back. It's their country not Russia's.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before it was given to Mexico by a dictator’s order. Plus I never knew Texans voted to return to the US after a coup in Mexico.
> 
> We can’t debate if you don’t know the topic.


There was no US for centuries before the Spanish inhabited Texas…..history illiterate.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Stann said:


> Russia stirred up those ethnic Russians to start with and gave them weapons. They were terrorizing most of the population which was Ukrainian. What do you expect the Ukrainian government to do but fight back. It's their country not Russia's.


If you’d like to get informed as to what is really going on with this terrible war, listen to this interview. However be careful because it completely blows up everything you believe.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> As has been reported in western media since the Obama/Nuland coup of 2014, (you likely miss it) we know the Ukes have attacked eastern Ukraine killing some 14,000 people. Why would they do that?  It must be that eastern Ukraine (Donbass) must contain mostly ethnic Russians (also widely reported in western press).  Seems likely they would vote to leave the Uke Nazi regime trying to murder them.
> 
> No?  Yes?


You’re a Russian mouth piece.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> There was no US for centuries before the Spanish inhabited Texas…..history illiterate.


Exactly right. So you analogy of comparing Texas to Ukraine, is amazingly dumb. Lol. 

You might be the dumbest poster on this board. Lol.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> You’re a Russian mouth piece.


Yeah truth isn’t allowed with idiots like you here.

 This happens in every war. The sheep (you) fall in line and call all those who oppose war traitors. 

FUCK YOU DUMBASS!


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> Exactly right. So you analogy of comparing Texas to Ukraine, is amazingly dumb. Lol.
> 
> You might be the dumbest poster on this board. Lol.


Nope. The Spanish had control over Mexico into the 1800s. By your logic, both Mexico and Spain have more rights to Texas then the US. Foolish.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yeah truth isn’t allowed with idiots like you here.
> 
> This happens in every war. The sheep (you) fall in line and call all those who oppose war traitors.
> 
> FUCK YOU DUMBASS!


Did Putin instruct you to make up all that shit, or did he work through Trump ?


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yeah truth isn’t allowed with idiots like you here.
> 
> This happens in every war. The sheep (you) fall in line and call all those who oppose war traitors.
> 
> FUCK YOU DUMBASS!


Well, since putin started this war, you must be one of his sheep.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> If you’d like to get informed as to what is really going on with this terrible war, listen to this interview. However be careful because it completely blows up everything you believe.


As soon as you refer to Washington as the imperial City, I shut off the video. Whatever he said was all propaganda. No one with any common Sense comes out of the gate like that.


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## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> I don't speak Russian so I'm limited in what I can watch of their TV shows, but I do observe English language news about the lack of protests about the horrors Russia is perpetrating in Ukraine and it is clear that nearly all of the protests and even complaints about the war have to do with the fact Russia is losing and not that Russia is otherwise wrong.



I do speak Russian, I follow whats going on there politically, whats on their state media (de-facto the only media at this point) and opinions Russians have (esp after the war broke out) and all the arguments they make.

In that bubble it would be quite likely that YOU would support the war. You may belive that Russophobe-Nazis controlled by the West took over Ukraine, that they are oppressing and bombing ethnic Russians and children (Dombili Bombas for 8 years), that Crimea and other regions have joined Russia volatarily, that NATO is out to get Russia etc etc. etc.

Hell, just look at all the bs our local village idiot Gipper parrots here everyday...though it's possible he is a Russian sock puppet.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Stann said:


> As soon as you refer to Washington as the imperial City, I shut off the video. Whatever he said was all propaganda. No one with any common Sense comes out of the gate like that.


As I thought.


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## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Did Putin instruct you to make up all that shit, or did he work through Trump ?


Yes!  I work for Putin!  All Hail Pootin!!!

You are the dumbest person I may ever interact with in my entire life.


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## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yes!  I work for Putin!  All Hail Pootin!!!
> 
> *You are the dumbest person I may ever interact with in my entire life.*


That makes no sense. You could run into another  Humper 
sometime soon. Anyone who thinks the entire world of  science research is controlled by democrats is pretty shaky.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ...most Russian people.  They are profoundly different from us.


"...but if Russia really is what it is sometimes portrayed in Western bourgeois historiography, that is, backward, stagnant, allegedly incapable of creative initiative and independent development, tyrannical and anarchic at the same time, etc., etc., then it is permissible to ask our critics how to explain that this country emerged victorious from the struggle for existence, survived, grew up and even turned into a great power? Had the trials that had befallen her been too easy?

The question of the comparative burden of historical trials should become the starting point for any more or less objective researcher who wants to establish what, in fact, the uniqueness (relative, of course) of Russian history in comparison with the history of the West consists in. Let's start with one specific example.

Richard Nixon, in one of the speeches he delivered when he was President of the United States, repeated with full approval the idea of Andre Malraux that the United States of America is the only country that has become a great power without making any effort to do so. And in this the French writer and the American president are certainly right. Complete security throughout history from outside invasions, a vast territory acquired through the extermination of Indians that did not require much effort, fertile lands, a fertile climate, rich and diverse minerals, and, finally, the fact that in both world wars America captured the lion's share of the fruits of victory at the cost of little blood — all this serves as the basis for the official thesis about the God-chosen of the American people, it is a matter of national pride.

And here is another country, the antipode of America. The Polish historian of the XIX century, the least inclined to Russophilia, Valishevsky, speaking about Peter's transformations, makes an apt remark relating to Russian history in general: "... There will be a huge waste of wealth, labor, even human lives. However, the strength of Russia and the mystery of its fate for the most part lies in the fact that it has always had the will and had the power not to pay attention to spending when it came to achieving a once-set goal".
 Behind this characteristic feature of Russia lies the action of a powerful factor completely unknown to the United States: in the XIII, XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII centuries, as well as later in the era of Peter I — in the XIX and XX centuries, the Russian land was subjected to a devastating invasion at least once a century and quite often simultaneously from several sides. The state that emerged on this land, in order to fend off the pressing enemies, had to imperiously demand from its people as much wealth, labor and lives as it needed to win, and the latter, since he wanted to defend his political independence, had to give it all without counting. This is how some national habits were formed and strengthened by the intensified repetition, which gave a national character in the aggregate.
Is it right for a serious researcher who has set himself the goal of comparing American and Russian history to ignore the fact, colossal in its consequences, that Russia has lived in a regime of ultra-high pressure from the outside throughout its centuries-old history, and America did not know such pressure at all? No, you don't have the right. By doing so, he will be forced to explain the observed differences not by their actual causes, but by absolutely fantastic ones. But that's exactly what American Slavists do all the time.

According to the calculations of the Russian historian V. O. Klyuchevsky, the Great Russian nation during its formation in 234 years (1228-1462) endured 160 external wars.

In the XVI century, Muscovy has been fighting in the northwest and west against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Livonian Order and Sweden for 43 years, without interrupting the struggle against the Tatar hordes on the southern, southeastern, and eastern borders for a years. In the XVII century, Russia fought for 48 years, in the XVIII century — 56 years.

In general, for Russia of the XIII–XVIII centuries, the state of the world was rather an exception, and war was a cruel rule.

So what kind of wars were they?

In the XIII–XV centuries, it was the struggle of the Russian people for existence in the most direct and precise sense of the word. Placed by fate on the border of two continents, Russia covered Europe with itself as a shield from the invasion of wild Tatar-Mongol hordes and in gratitude received blows from her in the back.
Russians have barely spread the news of the terrible Batu pogrom in the West, when his spiritual head, the Pope, announces a crusade against the "Russian schismatics" in order to push them into the arms of the Catholic Church with the edge of the sword. When the hopes pinned on the Swedish Crusaders and the Teutonic Order collapsed, Pope Alexander IV (1255) sent a letter to the "Lithuanian king" with permission to "fight Russia" and annex its regions to his possessions. The main threat to Russia during this period came from the East — here the struggle was waged for life and death. But the West (Sweden and the Order) threatened enslavement or at least (in the person of Lithuania) deprivation of political independence. Having not yet had time to form a dense ethnic core, Great Russia had to take up a circular defense.

In the XV century, Russia, having thrown off the Tatar-Mongol yoke, goes on the offensive on all fronts. Up to the end of the XVIII century, with a sword in her hands, she eliminated the direct and indirect foreign policy consequences of the Mongol invasion and domination: gathers the ancient Russian lands captured by Lithuania and Poland within the borders of a single power; overcomes economic isolation, breaks through trade routes to the Baltic and Black Seas; repopulates the devastated South Russian lands and brings to an end the struggle with the Tatar khanates, fragments of the Golden Horde — Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian, Crimean.

Defending or attacking, Russia as a whole was waging fair and inevitable wars at that time: it had no other choice. If the country wanted to live and develop, it had to throw away the scabbard as unnecessary, and prove its right to life and development to its neighbors with a blade for five centuries. In a certain sense, these wars were people's wars with the constant and active participation of the people's armed forces directly, the Cossacks.
Bourgeois historiographers who like to contrast Russia and the West on the basis of insignificant or even existing only in their author's imagination signs, do not want to notice this very important characteristic feature of Russian history, really distancing Russia from all, with only one exception, the countries of Western Europe.
This exception is Spain. Like Russia, which stood guard on the eastern borders of Europe, it restrained the pressure of nomadic Africa in the extreme west. The Spanish Reconquista, like the Russian offensive on the steppe, was a national cause — its driving forces, along with the feudal class, were the cities and the peasantry. And the same factor, the role of a border outpost on a troubled border, has distinguished Spain, as well as Russia, from the general flow of European history. According to Marx, "... the slow liberation from Arab rule in the process of almost eight hundred years of persistent struggle gave the peninsula, by the time its territory was completely cleared, features completely different from Europe at that time..." (c)  "The Connection of Times" by Fyodor Nesterov


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> "...but if Russia really is what it is sometimes portrayed in Western bourgeois historiography, that is, backward, stagnant, allegedly incapable of creative initiative and independent development, tyrannical and anarchic at the same time, etc., etc., then it is permissible to ask our critics how to explain that this country emerged victorious from the struggle for existence, survived, grew up and even turned into a great power? Had the trials that had befallen her been too easy?



World sees "great power" in action now and it turns out that parading toothbrushed tanks is a lot different than having an army worth a damn.

Russia's get-by is selling stuff out of their ground and pooling national resources for very narrow tech projects of little use to it's populace.

If Russia was trully victorious SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY WANT TO LIVE THERE. Nobody wants to immigrate there, many Russians are leaving for a better life elsewhere, population is on the decline. This war has put all these factors into over-drive indefinetly.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Nobody wants to immigrate there, many Russians are leaving for a better life elsewhere, population is on the decline. This war has put all these factors into over-drive indefinetly.


Tell me, piece of filth, if Russia is so bad, then why do European countries come together every century to conquer it?
 Then, of course, they get punched in the face and go quiet for another century, cursing Asian barbarians who do not appreciate European civilization.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> If you don't have a sense of your individual rights and believe you must support the collective rights of the nation, which is the case in Russia, then anything the government tells you is ok with you.  When the government tells you that if you call the war in Ukraine a war instead of a special military operation you are a national security risk and you belong in prison if you do it and you don't feel outraged, clearly anything the government tells you is ok with you.
> 
> Democracy is not just about voting; it is about believing the government exists to serve your needs and you have every right to criticize the government.  That sense of entitlement does not exist for most Russian people.  They are profoundly different from us.


Clearly you’ve been duped by the establishment. Happens in every. They demonize the fake enemy so the feeble minded will do as they’re are told.


----------



## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> World sees "great power" in action now and it turns out that parading toothbrushed tanks is a lot different than having an army worth a damn.
> 
> Russia's get-by is selling stuff out of their ground and pooling national resources for very narrow tech projects of little use to it's populace.
> 
> If Russia was trully victorious SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY WANT TO LIVE THERE. Nobody wants to immigrate there, many Russians are leaving for a better life elsewhere, population is on the decline. This war has put all these factors into over-drive indefinetly.


Everything you know is wrong. Bill Casey must be so proud, as he burns in Hell.


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## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> "...but if Russia really is what it is sometimes portrayed in Western bourgeois historiography, that is, backward, stagnant, allegedly incapable of creative initiative and independent development, tyrannical and anarchic at the same time, etc., etc., then it is permissible to ask our critics how to explain that this country emerged victorious from the struggle for existence, survived, grew up and even turned into a great power? Had the trials that had befallen her been too easy?
> 
> The question of the comparative burden of historical trials should become the starting point for any more or less objective researcher who wants to establish what, in fact, the uniqueness (relative, of course) of Russian history in comparison with the history of the West consists in. Let's start with one specific example.
> 
> ...


This post must be part a requirement in the recovery process.


----------



## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Tell me, piece of filth, if Russia is so bad, then why do European countries come together every century to conquer it?
> Then, of course, they get punched in the face and go quiet for another century, cursing Asian barbarians who do not appreciate European civilization.



Wow, did you just seriously say out loud that Russia is great today because Nazis invaded it in 1941?

I guess that means you think countries all around Russia are amazing considering how often Russia invades them.

Let me explain something to you - nobody wants any part of your near-third-world swamp today. World just wants you to mind your many many own problems in your own plentiful borders.

I know good advice is lost on Russkies like you but I'm an optimist at heart - you old brainwashed, paranoid Soviet nutbags will be in graves soon enough.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Let me explain something to you - nobody wants any part of your near-third-world swamp today.


Oh, yes! Every civilized person wants to be part of a strong, successful gang, and does not want to be its victim. Therefore, every civilized person licks the ass of the USA. And the one who doesn't do it is a barbarian from the Third World. 
There was already recently a man with a funny mustache, who thought like you, filth. The Russian barbarians drove him to suicide.


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## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Oh, yes! Every civilized person wants to be part of a strong, successful gang, and does not want to be its victim. Therefore, every civilized person licks the ass of the USA. And the one who doesn't do it is a barbarian from the Third World.
> There was already recently a man with a funny mustache, who thought like you, filth. The Russian barbarians drove him to suicide.



Yep, I know you have to rationalize somehow that United States is thriving, very influential and popular, while Russia is a regressive periah state. I know you can't face up to it. 

Take it to grave.


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## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> Yep, I know you have to rationalize somehow that United States is thriving, very influential and popular,


Bearded men in slippers with kalashnikovs beat the USA. Just like the little people in the jungles of Vietnam. And if your memory wasn't like a guppy fish, you would remember this and not carry your nonsense about the power of the US & NATO against Russia.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

Stann said:


> Learned behavior from years of oppression from their leaders.


Actually the natural course of things for everyone until the notion of individual rights developed in the West a few centuries ago, but this concept never took hold in Russia.


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## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Bearded men in slippers with kalashnikovs beat the USA.



Beat USA at what? Turning their country into a stable semi-democracy? Sure, they are back to being the fundamentalist shithole they were, only now with much better understanding what will happen if they dabble in international terrorism again (which was the point of the invasion).

We left because we've never had any interest in occupying their country indefinetly, not because "kalashnikovs"

Either way USA remains highly influential, you just have nothing else to talk about.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> I do speak Russian, I follow whats going on there politically, whats on their state media (de-facto the only media at this point) and opinions Russians have (esp after the war broke out) and all the arguments they make.
> 
> In that bubble it would be quite likely that YOU would support the war. You may belive that Russophobe-Nazis controlled by the West took over Ukraine, that they are oppressing and bombing ethnic Russians and children (Dombili Bombas for 8 years), that Crimea and other regions have joined Russia volatarily, that NATO is out to get Russia etc etc. etc.
> 
> Hell, just look at all the bs our local village idiot Gipper parrots here everyday...though it's possible he is a Russian sock puppet.


No, if I were in Russia, I wouldn't trust the state media and I wouldn't accept bizarre laws that would throw me in prison for saying war instead of special military operation because I grew up with a sense of my right to distrust the government and to oppose oppressive laws that limited my individual rights, and that is my point, the Russian people never had that sense of their rights, not under the Czars or communists or under Putin's government so they accept what they hear on state TV because they simply don't imagine they have a choice.


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## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Actually the natural course of things for everyone until the notion of individual rights developed in the West a few centuries ago, but this concept never took hold in Russia.


Yes, because while the enlightened people of  the West were talking about democracy, while flogging the darkies and robbing the genociding of indians and africans, Russia was busy fighting for its existence, including against the "civilizers". And time after time saving their sorry asses from their own dictators.


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## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> We left because we've never had any interest in occupying their country indefinetly, not because "kalashnikovs"


Oh yes, sour grapes.


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## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Oh yes, sour grapes.


Truth is not sour grapes.

America had no interest in occupying that land and at some point it's time to bring the troops home. 20 years is enough.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> "...but if Russia really is what it is sometimes portrayed in Western bourgeois historiography, that is, backward, stagnant, allegedly incapable of creative initiative and independent development, tyrannical and anarchic at the same time, etc., etc., then it is permissible to ask our critics how to explain that this country emerged victorious from the struggle for existence, survived, grew up and even turned into a great power? Had the trials that had befallen her been too easy?
> 
> The question of the comparative burden of historical trials should become the starting point for any more or less objective researcher who wants to establish what, in fact, the uniqueness (relative, of course) of Russian history in comparison with the history of the West consists in. Let's start with one specific example.
> 
> ...


Most of the western European countries went through the same tribulations, but while defending themselves or attacking others, the concept of individual rights that could not be limited by the state developed and that led to democracy, the concept that the state exists to serve the needs of the people, but that notion never took hold in Russia, so Russia is seen as culturally and politically backward by most of the world, and rightly so.

In your post, you assert the right of the government to fight wars against real or imagined enemies regardless of the welfare of the people, but who should make that decision if not the people?  In fact, what is the state if not the people who live in it?  By what right does any small clique decide for all the people whether they should suffer the hardships of war?


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## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> In your post, you assert the right of the government to fight wars against real or imagined enemies regardless of the welfare of the people, but who should make that decision if not the people?  In fact, what is the state if not the people who live in it?  By what right does any small clique decide for all the people whether they should suffer the hardships of war?


You simply have no idea what it means to live next to strong nomads for centuries. For example, North American Indians killed several settlers and this was the reason for declaring them "A good Indian is a dead Indian" and generally declaring them subhumans worthy of destruction. Russia has been experiencing regular invasions of thousands of nomadic hordes from the south and east for several hundred years and unlike the Indians from the Stone Age, they were people standing at a higher stage of development, moreover, later supported by the power of the powerful Ottoman Empire.
Huge efforts, both material and human, were made to prevent invasions that led to the destruction of material objects, the murder of people and the hijacking of prisoners for sale into slavery. During major raids, the number of prisoners numbered in the tens of thousands. A huge number of people died on the way to slavery, many people were killed during raids.
 Creation of protective lines along rivers and forests stretched for hundreds of kilometers was done. It was a huge burden on the state. For centuries! And this required unity of all people and centralized command, without this anarchy and the death of not only the country but also its people. 
None of the European countries knew such tension. And this is still not counting the war on the part of the West.


----------



## Stann (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Tell me, piece of filth, if Russia is so bad, then why do European countries come together every century to conquer it?
> Then, of course, they get punched in the face and go quiet for another century, cursing Asian barbarians who do not appreciate European civilization.


It didn't get the name evil empire for no reason. They do this to themselves. Look at today backing cyber terrorism and regular terrorism. Never mind all the regular corruption including bribes and vote rigging and abusive power. The Russian adoption laws, foreign agent's law, gay propaganda law and , gay violence, environmental destruction, targeting journalists,  crackdown on dissidence, abusing migrants and of course the all encompassing Russian war of terror against the Ukraine. What's not to like about the repressive government. What do repressive governments breed, But more ignorance,hatred and lies.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

Stann said:


> It didn't get the name evil empire for no reason. They do this to themselves. Look at today backing cyber terrorism and regular terrorism. Never mind all the regular corruption including bribes and vote rigging and abusive power. The Russian adoption laws, foreign agent's law, gay propaganda law and , gay violence, environmental destruction, targeting journalists,  crackdown on dissidence, abusing migrants and of course the all encompassing Russian war of terror against the Ukraine. What's not to like about the repressive government. What do repressive governments breed, But more ignorance,hatred and lies.


What a bunch of garbage....


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> You simply have no idea what it means to live next to strong nomads for centuries. For example, North American Indians killed several settlers and this was the reason for declaring them "A good Indian is a dead Indian" and generally declaring them subhumans worthy of destruction. Russia has been experiencing regular invasions of thousands of nomadic hordes from the south and east for several hundred years and unlike the Indians from the Stone Age, they were people standing at a higher stage of development, moreover, later supported by the power of the powerful Ottoman Empire.
> Huge efforts, both material and human, were made to prevent invasions that led to the destruction of material objects, the murder of people and the hijacking of prisoners for sale into slavery. During major raids, the number of prisoners numbered in the tens of thousands. A huge number of people died on the way to slavery, many people were killed during raids.
> Creation of protective lines along rivers and forests stretched for hundreds of kilometers was done. It was a huge burden on the state. For centuries! And this required unity of all people and centralized command, without this anarchy and the death of not only the country but also its people.
> None of the European countries knew such tension. And this is still not counting the war on the part of the West.


Again, western European countries also faced centuries of wars and were still able to arrive at the place where the state was seen as being there to serve the needs of the people, but in Russia the people are only seen as existing to serve the needs of the state, and by state, the particular group of people who have wrested control from the last group, so first the Czars made the decisions, but by what rights?  And then the communists made the decisions, but by what right?  And now the ultra-nationalists make all the decisions, but by what right?  The state, after all, is nothing but the people who live in it, so by what right does anyone else make decisions for them?


----------



## ESay (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> As has been reported in western media since the Obama/Nuland coup of 2014, (you likely miss it) we know the Ukes have attacked eastern Ukraine killing some 14,000 people. Why would they do that?  It must be that eastern Ukraine (Donbass) must contain mostly ethnic Russians (also widely reported in western press).  Seems likely they would vote to leave the Uke Nazi regime trying to murder them.
> 
> No?  Yes?


Idiot. I already gave you a link that says that the number of 14000 includes casualties of Ukrainian servicemen and sepsratist militants.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)




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## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

ESay said:


> Idiot. I already gave you a link that says that the number of 14000 includes casualties of Ukrainian servicemen and sepsratist militants.


It must be mentioned also that there were very few casualties in 2019-2021


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## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

ESay said:


> Idiot. I already gave you a link that says that the number of 14000 includes casualties of Ukrainian servicemen and sepsratist militants.


Moron. You think that matters. Lol.


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## José (Dec 14, 2022)

> Originally posted by *AntonToo*
> Poland maybe? Litva perhaps? You think Russia has a right to bomb them since they are part of NATO and may get common defense budget funding?



I don't want to make light of the tragic events that are unfolding in Ukraine. What Russia is doing, waging war on a nation that didn't attack her is extremelly grave, justified, but an extremelly serious breach of the normal behavior you expect from any member of the international community.

Geopolitical threats like the one NATO poses to Russia need to be addressed but the nation being threatened by military encirclement like Russia or any other kind of threat has to do everything in its power to solve the issue by diplomatic means.

Military solutions must be evaluated only after all peaceful alternatives to war have been exausted.

If diplomacy fails, yes, Russia would be justified to start a bombing campaign against Poland, the baltic states, etc...


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## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

José said:


> I don't want to make light of the tragic events that are unfolding in Ukraine. What Russia is doing, waging war on a nation that didn't attack her is extremelly grave, justified, but an extremelly serious breach of the normal behavior you expect from any member of the international community.
> 
> Geopolitical threats like the one NATO poses to Russia need to be addressed but the nation being threatened by military encirclement like Russia or any other kind of threat has to do everything in its power to solve the issue by diplomatic means.
> 
> ...


Yet the USG has waged war on multiple nations that didn’t attack it.


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## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

AntonToo said:


> It must be mentioned also that there were very few casualties in 2019-2021


When Hitler invaded the Rhineland in March 1936, there were no casualties at all. But if he had been stopped then, there might not have been millions of victims after.
The same goes for the nazis of Ukraine in 2014.
Just as the West supported Hitler in 1930s, so it still supports the nazis now.
The result could be much worse than the Second World War.


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## José (Dec 14, 2022)

> Originally posted by *gipper*
> Yet the USG has waged war on multiple nations that didn’t attack it.



When the US attacked Iraq in 2003 Bush also cited a geopolitical threat to America, gipper.

As I said, geopolitical threats are grounds for military action even in the absence of a armed aggression. But the geopolitical threat must be real, serious.

I would argue that the military encirclement of Russia's western borders by NATO is infinitely more serious than imaginary weapons of mass destruction.


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## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

José said:


> When the US attacked Iraq in 2003 Bush also cited a geopolitical threat to America, gipper.
> 
> As I said, geopolitical threats are grounds for military action even in the absence of a armed aggression. But the geopolitical threat must be real, serious.
> 
> I would argue that the military encirclement of Russia's western borders by NATO is infinitely more serious than imaginary weapons of mass destruction.


And we know he lied, like so many presidents have done to take the nation to war.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

José said:


> When the US attacked Iraq in 2003 Bush also cited a geopolitical threat to America, gipper.
> 
> As I said, geopolitical threats are grounds for military action even in the absence of a armed aggression. But the geopolitical threat must be real, serious.
> 
> I would argue that the military encirclement of Russia's western borders by NATO is infinitely more serious than imaginary weapons of mass destruction.


Bullshit.  The only legal basis for an attack on another country is defense against aggression.  If the aggression has not yet occurred but is clearly imminent, a preemptive attack is also legal.  Neither of these conditions apply to the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine or the present Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Every action taken by Russia in these invasions is illegal under international law, but Russia has ignored international law and previous agreements it had made because the leadership foolishly thought no one would oppose them, but they are wrong and Russia will not recover from this war in the foreseeable future.  

As you demonstrate over and over again in your posts, it is impossible to defend Russia's actions without lying.


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## gipper (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Bullshit.  The only legal basis for an attack on another country is defense against aggression.  If the aggression has not yet occurred but is clearly imminent, a preemptive attack is also legal.  Neither of these conditions apply to the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine or the present Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Every action taken by Russia in these invasions is illegal under international law, but Russia has ignored international law and previous agreements it had made because the leadership foolishly thought no one would oppose them, but they are wrong and Russia will not recover from this war in the foreseeable future.
> 
> As you demonstrate over and over again in your posts, it is impossible to defend Russia's actions without lying.


BS asshole. 14,000 dead ethnic Russians in the Donbas mean something to intelligent people.


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## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Bullshit.  The only legal basis for an attack on another country is defense against aggression.  If the aggression has not yet occurred but is clearly imminent, a preemptive attack is also legal.  Neither of these conditions apply to the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine or the present Russian invasion of Ukraine.


You're lying. Or don't  have a clue


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

gipper said:


> BS asshole. 14,000 dead ethnic Russians in the Donbas mean something to intelligent people.


14,000 people were killed in the proxy war Russia started in Donbas but it is not clear how many were killed by Russian soldiers and Russian proxies and how many were killed by Ukrainian troops defending their country against the Russian invasion.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> You're lying. Or don't  have a clue


I have presented the facts under international law, but Russia has ignored international law and has ignored agreements it had made with Ukraine and the US and UK.  Russia wants to live in a might-makes-right world, but Russia is not a great power and has lost all credibility and respect in the world and will not recover from the crimes it is committing in the foreseeable future.


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## José (Dec 14, 2022)

> Originally posted by* toomuchtime*
> Bullshit. The only legal basis for an attack on another country is defense against aggression. If the aggression has not yet occurred but is clearly imminent, a preemptive attack is also legal.



Someone forgot to tell that to Reagan in 1983 when a mere airport built with Cuban help was deemed a serious enough geopolitical threat to justify the military invasion of the island of Grenada and the overthrow of the government.


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## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> When Hitler invaded the Rhineland in March 1936, there were no casualties at all. But if he had been stopped then, there might not have been millions of victims after.
> The same goes for the nazis of Ukraine in 2014.



Thats true, Russians who annexed Crimea with no resistance should've been stopped in 2014.


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## AntonToo (Dec 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Just as the West supported Hitler in 1930s, so it still supports the nazis now.


You are out of your fucking mind Boris.

America armed, aided and supported USSR against Nazi invasion, just like it's now helping Ukraine to fight off Russhist invasion.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

José said:


> Someone forgot to tell that to Reagan in 1983 when a mere airport built with Cuban help was deemed a serious enough geopolitical threat to justify the military invasion of the island of Grenada and the overthrow of the government.


Are you trying to sound stupid or is it that you just can't help it?  Whether or not the US was justified in invading Grenada, the fact remains that under international law the only justification for attacking another country is an actual or imminent aggression from that country and Russia had no legal grounds for launching the 2014 invasion of Ukraine or the present invasion of Ukraine.


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## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> They are profoundly different from us.


They are orofiundl6 different only because of the situation the6 exist in. The Japanese, Germans were NOT democratically inclined as peoples  until they were defeated in war and FORCED to participate in a democracy. Wars are game changers, good or bad.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> They are orofiundl6 different only because of the situation the6 exist in. The Japanese, Germans were NOT democratically inclined as peoples  until they were defeated in war and FORCED to participate in a democracy. Wars are game changers, good or bad.


In effect, we changed the cultures of these countries during the occupations of Japan and Germany, but we are not going to occupy Russia.


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## Dagosa (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> In effect, we changed the cultures of these countries during the occupations of Japan and Germany, but we are not going to occupy Russia.


Nope. But only because of nuclear arms deterrents. It’s highly unlikely Russia   would have invaded had Ukraine not turned its nukes back over to Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine for the same reason most wars are started……fossil fuels and their access to markets for fossil fuels. It’s not rocket science. If the science is true that fusion reaction  is much closer then ever before, wars will still be waged over fossil fuels but BY fossil,  fuel proponents in an effort to preserve their wealth and status…..it’s seldom about democracy. It’s often a by product.


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## José (Dec 14, 2022)

> Originally posted by *toomuchtime*
> Are you trying to sound stupid or is it that you just can't help it? Whether or not the US was justified in invading Grenada, the fact remains that under international law the only justification for attacking another country is an actual or imminent aggression from that country and Russia had no legal grounds for launching the 2014 invasion of Ukraine or the present invasion of Ukraine.



The UN purposefully ignores geopolitical threats in a well-intentioned effort to reduce the number of armed conflicts around the world.

That's why Reagan, Bush and Putin were forced to face the threats to their countries outside the international legal framework with the only difference that the russian casus belli is infinitely stronger than the other two.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 14, 2022)

José said:


> The UN purposefully ignores geopolitical threats in a well-intentioned effort to reduce the number of armed conflicts around the world.
> 
> That's why Reagan, Bush and Putin were forced to face the threats to their countries outside the international legal framework with the only difference that the russian casus belli is infinitely stronger than the other two.


Still drooling nothing but bullshit.  Putin is trying to annex Ukraine after Russia had already acknowledged Ukraine as a sovereign state and regardless of whether the US wars in Iraq or Grenada were justified under international law, the US did not seek to annex any territories.  

If you want to compare Putin to someone, compare him to Hitler or Stalin, not to a US president.


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## Ringo (Dec 14, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> I have presented the facts under international law, but Russia has ignored international law


An international law? And to conclude contracts, knowing in advance that you will not comply with them, is this an international law?


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## ESay (Dec 15, 2022)

gipper said:


> Moron. You think that matters. Lol.


What matters is that you are a dishonest prick. But, yes, this actually doesn't matter also.


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## gipper (Dec 15, 2022)

ESay said:


> What matters is that you are a dishonest prick. But, yes, this actually doesn't matter also.


Thank you.


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## Dagosa (Dec 15, 2022)

José said:


> That's why Reagan, Bush and Putin were forced to face the threats to their countries outside the international legal framework with the only difference that the russian casus belli is infinitely stronger than the other two.


So, now you’re putting Reagan and Bush right there with a fascist dictator, murderer and thug. I wouldn't have gone quite that far  in my critique of Bush and Reagan, but, continue doing it.


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## Ringo (Dec 15, 2022)

What does the West need in this war? He needs either to prolong the war until the belligerents are completely exhausted or to publicly humiliate Russia as a world great power. To prove that only the West can dismember countries at its discretion and protect the rights of its supporters.
Today, when there is no Soviet Russia, they so want to return to the 19th century, in the age of complete domination of the West and the age of colonial empires. Rather, one empire. You understand what it is. The next contender for world domination.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 15, 2022)

Ringo said:


> What does the West need in this war? He needs either to prolong the war until the belligerents are completely exhausted or to publicly humiliate Russia as a world great power. To prove that only the West can dismember countries at its discretion and protect the rights of its supporters.
> Today, when there is no Soviet Russia, they so want to return to the 19th century, in the age of complete domination of the West and the age of colonial empires. Rather, one empire. You understand what it is. The next contender for world domination.


What the West wants is for Russia to stay within its own borders and to abide by the agreements it signs.


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## gipper (Dec 15, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> What the West wants is for Russia to stay within its own borders and to abide by the agreements it signs.


So you think Russia should abide by these rules but not the USG. HYPOCRITE!


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## Ringo (Dec 15, 2022)

toomuchtime_ said:


> What the West wants is for Russia to stay within its own borders and to abide by the agreements it signs.


O.K. Right after the NATO.


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## AntonToo (Dec 17, 2022)

Ringo said:


> O.K. Right after the NATO.


NATO is not a country and has never annexed any country.

Other countries ASK to join NATO alliance. Why? Because they are looking at crazy Russian government's invasions and don't know if they are next.

Ukraine has regretted dearly not following Litva's example and joining NATO while they had the chance in the 90's.


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