# Diane Black , a female GOP rich rep. wants to end the EMTLA



## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.

Black, a Republican gubernatorial candidate and former nurse, said a federal law, called EMTALA is a "burden" that took away clinicians' ability to tell patients that "an emergency room is not the proper place" for treatment.

The law, the Emergency Medical Treatment & Labor Act, requires ER staff to treat any patient regardless of ailment, ability to pay or other grounds of discrimination.

"I would get rid of a law that says that you ― you are not allowed, as a health care professional, to make that decision about whether someone can be appropriately treated the next day, or at a walk-in clinic, or at their doctor,” Black, R-Gallatin, said in comments on MSNBC on Oct. 13.

Diane Black wants ERs to be able to send people away. Here are the issues for patients, doctors.
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This is  one nasty women in my opinion, get rid of the ACA, gut Medicare and Medicaid and Snap,  very pro the tax cut for the elites. Also wants to defund PP, being an ex RN she so cares about people health.  All this female cares about in my opinion is the almighty buck.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

another leftist that is against freedom.


ever been to an ER during the day?


It's full of people sitting around waiting to get aspirin for cold or a Band-Aid for a minor cut.

and it you have an actual, painful problem, you have to wait your turn.


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## ScienceRocks (Oct 27, 2017)

LET THEM DIE!

The republican party is the party of satan.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

ScienceRocks said:


> LET THEM DIE!
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> The republican party is the party of satan.


wrong again fuckchop.

If you are actually dying or in actual 'need' of medical care, you will get it, and you won't have to sit, in pain, for hours, to get it.


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## ScienceRocks (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


> U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> 
> Black, a Republican gubernatorial candidate and former nurse, said a federal law, called EMTALA is a "burden" that took away clinicians' ability to tell patients that "an emergency room is not the proper place" for treatment.
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This is what I mean by 1780's france. Let them eat cake and let them die on the side of the road.

We have to be ready to take up arms against these monsters.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

ScienceRocks said:


> Penelope said:
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## WinterBorn (Oct 27, 2017)

ScienceRocks said:


> LET THEM DIE!
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> The republican party is the party of satan.



No.  That is not what she is saying.   She is saying that the ER is not the appropriate place to go for a cold.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


> another leftist that is against freedom.
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Hey perhaps if they had insurance, it would not be that way.  I agree er is for emergencies, CVAs, MI's, broken bones, and that is why I am pro the ACA and Expanded Medicaid. 

now you have the nerve to bitch about ER's. Go to a doctor if you do not like er's.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

WinterBorn said:


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Well you take away the ACA and expanded Medicaid, that is what she is saying. Let them die.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

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They do triage in ER's so if you have to sit in pain for awhile, just be assured that are more sick people ahead of you.  After all that is what ER's are for.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

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that's what they are for, but that is not what they are used for.

you really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

you saw (R), the word 'rich', and the removal of a tyrannical law and just assumed.


I sat in the er with a suspected appendix problem and watched people with the sniffles go ahead of me.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


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wrong again.

Adults can still get insurance, still get needed care at the hospital.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


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Like an adult, I do go to the doctor, unlike leftists losers that have lived on the dole for life, I know what it takes to take care of myself.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


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Well then how do you know this? 


> It's full of people sitting around waiting to get aspirin for cold or a Band-Aid for a minor cut.
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> and it you have an actual, painful problem, you have to wait your turn


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


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b/c I've had to go to the ER, under a doctors advise, more than once, plus I talk to real live people in reality.

you should try it.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


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Then you go to a quake dr, if he suggests you go to the ER, he would call an ambulance, or he would order a diagnostic test for you. He wouldn't  send you to drive to the ER without papers to get tested, and if you gave them to the nurse, they would of taken care of you.  I explained they go triage. Don't you get it.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


> U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> 
> Black, a Republican gubernatorial candidate and former nurse, said a federal law, called EMTALA is a "burden" that took away clinicians' ability to tell patients that "an emergency room is not the proper place" for treatment.
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DC gereral hospital had to close because they HAD to give medical attention to anyone who showed up at their ER.  I guess you are okay, that if other hospitals started closing because those that paid didn't go and only those(many illegals) that couldn't pay did?  Soon there wouldn't be medical care anymore, because just like liberal teachers, nurses and doctors want to be paid.  Why isn't college free, because teachers are greedy mother fucking grubbers...


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


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wrong again.

god you're dumb.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


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You say babies born and unborn should die on the table because their mothers cant afford to raise them, what is the difference for those that cant pay and die in the ER?


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

andaronjim said:


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Never ever said that.  Either back it up in context, or an apology would be appropriate.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


> another leftist that is against freedom.
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> ever been to an ER during the day?
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That is a problem that is easily solved. Corruption and collusion between hospitals and insurance companies prevent the problem from being solved.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 27, 2017)

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 You voted for Hillary, so actions speak volumes, but again, if all hospitals end up closed because those that pay become less , you are okay with that?  Our hospitals in Virginia are inundated with illegal, who show up at the ER because their Anchors have a head cold.  Since they cant speak Engrish, they get free care, but when my son(legal US citizen) shows up, he is given an number, then I have to pay for his and all those illegals care.


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## fncceo (Oct 27, 2017)

ScienceRocks said:


> We have to be ready to take up arms



How's your aim, cupcake?


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

andaronjim said:


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Still waiting.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

andaronjim said:


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Don't they do triage in Virginia.   Yes I voted for Clinton, and as such the ACA and expanded Medicaid would not be on the chopping block.


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## WinterBorn (Oct 27, 2017)

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Let them die?   I don't know about anyone else, but I have never said "let them die".   In fact, I have only spoken out against the use of the ER for things that are certainly NOT emergencies.   And if the ER is clogged with colds, earaches, or the flu (for otherwise healthy adults) it increases the chance a real emergency will not get the proper care.  THAT is far more likely to kill someone.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Camp said:


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toss in useless law suits that make hospitals give you useless and expensive tests.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

WinterBorn said:


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No I said that is what she is saying since she is anti the ACA and expanded Medicaid, and want to cut funding for regular Medicaid. 

Where are people to go without insurance?


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## WinterBorn (Oct 27, 2017)

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Indeed they do.  But when you add in a large number of non-emergency patients it does cause problems, regardless of the triage.   The staff is more distracted and certainly more exhausted.  The chances of errors goes up.   The time a Dr has to actually talk to the patient goes down.  Lab tests are delayed ect ect.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

WinterBorn said:


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Pneumonia is often misdiagnosed as being a cold or flu, especially in children and seniors. Failure to treat it is often fatal.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


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Doctors use diagnostic tests. They do not have xray vision and God like abilities.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Camp said:


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Pneumonia is a lung infiltrate. They have different symptoms. If a Dr. suspects infiltrate, he should do an xray.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

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so you are all for a doctor, knowingly, giving you a battery of test, just so he can avoid a lawsuit and charge your ins company, driving up cost of ins.


why do you hate poor people?


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

WinterBorn said:


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I agree, and I agree ER should be used for emergencies.  Doctors offices should be used, and that takes ins and or money.


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## fncceo (Oct 27, 2017)

Camp said:


> Pneumonia is often misdiagnosed as being a cold or flu



Which is precisely the reason you don't go to a crowded, overworked, and understaffed ER to diagnose a cold.  They will give you paracetamol and rush you out the door without a proper exam.

Emergency rooms are for emergencies ...


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


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Yes I am, one must rule out things to make an accurate diagnosis.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

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Ya, but some folks would consider x-rays and perhaps accompanying blood test as wasteful "tests".


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


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then why take a stance against removing that law?

you just agreed it's a bad idea.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Camp said:


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Well those folks should just stay home and have chicken soup.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

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I have asthma, I've had it longer than I can remember and I have memories of being 2.

I had a really bad asthma attack, my inhaler wasn't working, so I went to the er, told them what I had and what I needed.
I turned down an x-ray, b/c I knew it was useless
turned down blood tests, b/c I knew it was useless
yelled at them to give me the breathing treatment, got it, felt better in moments.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

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Because they are killing the ACA and Medicaid. In the OP I explained that. She is also wanting to defund PP where males go to as well.  Back to the days of pre-existing conditions with rates so high the median income can't afford ins , long questionnaires for ins. unless you work for a large company, caps on ins.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

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In a situation like that they should of done a breathing treatment since you were having a bad asthma attack, without question.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

fncceo said:


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A person with undiagnosed Pneumonia is in great danger of death. Nowadays, a modern clinic will have x-ray availability on-premise or nearby. The same for bloodwork. Hence, one solution for this problem is to have the option of an emergency room or clinic at the same or nearby locations with admittance staffs at both that is triage qualified to decide which is appropriate.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

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Do you know that premiums went up b/c of the aca?
and that they were unconstitutionally made to look not as high b/c our tax dollars went directly to ins companies?


you do know this, right?


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


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Thank you.

But they wanted to do all those tests first.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

Most people learn quickly that there is a huge difference in cost between a walk in clinic and emergency room. There are three walk-in clinics within a few miles of my local hospital. The difference is large enough, no matter what kind of insurance you have that you will use the clinic as the first choice for many illnesses or injuries.


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## fncceo (Oct 27, 2017)

Camp said:


> Hence, one solution for this problem is to have the option of an emergency room or clinic at the same or nearby locations with admittance staffs at both that is triage qualified to decide which is appropriate.



I have never lived in a place that didn't have 7/24 clinics within a 30 minute drive.  Certainly every city has something like that.  ERs on the other hand are staffed with emergency workers, not clinical diagnosticians.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

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You needed a clinic instead of an ER.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

fncceo said:


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The clinics where I live are not open 24/7. They have however reduced the numbers of patients going to the ER big time.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Camp said:


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Camp said:


> Most people learn quickly that there is a huge difference in cost between a walk in clinic and emergency room. There are three walk-in clinics within a few miles of my local hospital. The difference is large enough, no matter what kind of insurance you have that you will use the clinic as the first choice for many illnesses or injuries.



All of the walk in clinics here need ins or expect cash, check payment.  Some do not accept Medicaid as well.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

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He needed a spare inhaler. I'm sure he has one now.  He may of got quicker service if he had walked into a clinic, an asthma attack can be life threatening.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 27, 2017)

WinterBorn said:


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I found out that if my son who was having an asthma attack would of come in on an ambulance(not amblance) he would be moved to the font of the line, but since he was driven in he had to wait just like the Anchor who showed up before him did..Just love how liberals are for illegal people who shouldn't be here, but not their own citizens who pay the taxes so fucks like Pene, could get their welfare.  When everyone is equally poor and equally miserable, then the liberals have achieved FAIRNESS.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

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A weakness in the system. Everyone having insurance solves that weakness.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

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yes
and medicare


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## miketx (Oct 27, 2017)

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So why don't they have insurance? Obama care is great. Why didn't they have it?


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

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It was late at night and I was in a small city, I got directions to the only place open.

I had and have insurance and my condition at the time was life threatening, I was in so much danger that I sat for 30 seconds before they came and got me.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

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Pretty sure the treatment and the inhaler are using the same basic medicine, albuterol, just different delivery systems.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

Camp said:


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clearly not or my inhaler would have worked.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


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Yes, trouble breathing gets you a cot fast in the ER.


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## danielpalos (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


> another leftist that is against freedom.
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That is what affordable health care was supposed to alleviate.

Why is the right wing coming up with this type of solution, instead of ones that prevent the need for more expensive, emergency care for non-emergency issues.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

danielpalos said:


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politics and government is not the answer.

they made it worse all on their own.

People that can think, don't look to the government to fix the problems they caused, they look for other sources.


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## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

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You can not visually see the medication in the inhaler and inhalers have a few problems that can make them ineffective. Plus, the dosage is better controlled and is a better delivery system with the "treatment" which is given via a nebulizer. The inhaler gives a limited saturation of the medication to you while the nebulizer gives you a lengthy saturation of the medication suspended in a mist.   The difference is a few seconds of medication taken in a few puffs compared to a ten-minute or more continuous treatment that literally saturates your upper respiratory and lungs. 
Hope this was a one time incident for you and the inhaler works OK for you now.


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## SeaGal (Oct 27, 2017)

_When Todd asked Black whether she would get rid of the law, she replied, “I would get rid of a law that says that you ― you are not allowed, as a health care professional, to make that decision about whether someone can be appropriately treated the next day, or at a walk-in clinic, or at their doctor.”
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She's right.  One of our local hospitals has basically two ER's - one a non-urgent care facility, and the other for urgent care.
btw - Insurance is useless if you can't afford to use it.
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The Affordable Care Act (ACA) will cause a major expansion of high-deductible health insurance, a fact that has received little attention but has substantial implications for patients, health care pro-viders, and employers. High-deductible health plans (HDHPs), often considered “blunt instruments” that indiscriminately reduce utilization of both appropriate and discretionary care, require annual out-of-pocket payments of $1,000 to $10,000 for many services before more comprehensive coverage begins.1 Unfortunately, large gaps remain in our understanding of HDHPs' effects on vulnerable populations, life-saving services, and health outcomes.2,3
MMS: Error
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Medicaid recipients use more than 'their fair share' of ER services...the most expensive place to seek non-emergency services.  But not for the Medicaid recipient.
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Medicaid beneficiaries use the ED at an almost two-fold higher rate than the privately insured...

Frequent ED users are more likely to have poor physical and mental health, no usual source of care, higher-than-average utilization of other health services, and be dissatisfied with their medical care.12  While they may be a small group of people, they can account for a large share of costs. In Oregon, for instance, 50% of ED expenses in Oregon could be attributed to 3% of the Medicaid population (~16,000 individuals).  

https://www.medicaid.gov/Federal-Policy-Guidance/Downloads/CIB-01-16-14.pdf

*Medicaid Doubles ER Use*

According to the report, released in May, nearly one-third (32 percent) of Medicaid enrollees used the ER at least once during a 12-month period in 2007. Individuals with private health coverage were only about half as likely (17 percent) to visit an ER, and a similar proportion—one in five—of individuals without health coverage did so.

Medicaid enrollees were three times as likely (15 percent vs. 5 percent) as the privately insured, and twice as likely as the uninsured (15 percent vs. 7 percent), to have visited an ER twice in the previous year.
News - Report: Uninsured Emergency Room Use Greatly Exaggerated | Heartland Institute
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Ask any first responder about 'frequent flyers'.
Misuse of the Emergency Medical Services system: Frequent flyers and ambulance abusers

TMtR - I know. 
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## Two Thumbs (Oct 27, 2017)

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The medications are different as is the delivery.

I know, b/c I've been using an inhaler since before I can recall.


Whenever I move, I have issues in spring, so this is most likely a one off.


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## danielpalos (Oct 27, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


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For modern health care in modern times?

Capitalism "died in 1929".  Socialism has been bailing out capitalism, ever since.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

SeaGal said:


> _When Todd asked Black whether she would get rid of the law, she replied, “I would get rid of a law that says that you ― you are not allowed, as a health care professional, to make that decision about whether someone can be appropriately treated the next day, or at a walk-in clinic, or at their doctor.”
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> She's right.  One of our local hospitals has basically two ER's - one a non-urgent care facility, and the other for urgent care.
> btw - Insurance is useless if you can't afford to use it.
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Correct, ins is useless if you can't afford to use it, but what have republicans done since the ACA, voted to repeal it. 
If the Dems had had control, they would of worked on making the ins companies and drug companies cut prices. Also raising the fine for young people to enroll in the marketplace was needed.   But GOP refused expanded Medicaid in their states, and bad mouthed the ACA since inception.


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## SeaGal (Oct 27, 2017)

ACA is repealing itself - as designed by the Dems who _had_ control, and wrote it with the input of union bosses, academics, insurance companies and pharma.  It was a Trojan horse, and the dreaded insurance companies fell for it with the expectations of taxpayer funded bailouts..._promised_ bailouts. 

I agree that the mantra 'repeal and replace' was campaign rhetoric.  Obamacare is so deeply intertwined with the spinal column of our healthcare delivery system...as designed... that only careful and thoughtful excision can remove the cancer without killing the patient.

We all know that single payer is the goal - a goal thwarted by other _Dems_.  Do the research.

Medicare has unfunded liabilities in double digit trillions.  Medicaid spending approaches 1 trillion annually.  Neither one could exist without the taxpayer and the privately insured taking up the slack.

There are a few measures that might be worth looking into - the federal government maintains health insurance 'exchanges' for its employees...giving a choice between policy coverages among several different companies.  The policies are not free - but the premium cost is mitigated at a ratio of about  40/60.  Open that up to those whose employers don't provide health insurance.  Strengthen HSA's, and catastrophic coverage choices. Choices will lower prices - choices of treatments, tests and drugs prescribed by physicians will help lower prices.

Reassess the FDA's method of approval of a drug, which can cause unnecessary delays and expenses.  Mr sg uses an inhaler that costs $400.00 a month in the states, per his pulmonary doctor the same drug is only $10 in India.  Why? 

ACA wasn't an attempt to address the cost of healthcare - the intention was to involve the US taxpayer into paying more into the pockets of pharma and insurance companies.  Wait until the Cadillac tax takes effect in the next couple of years - was supposed to have been implemented several years ago as a provision of ACA...and source of funding.  Now, (wonder of wonders) some of the groups who helped draft the ACA, want that part repealed, as it should be.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

SeaGal said:


> ACA is repealing itself - as designed by the Dems who _had_ control, and wrote it with the input of union bosses, academics, insurance companies and pharma.  It was a Trojan horse, and the dreaded insurance companies fell for it with the expectations of taxpayer funded bailouts..._promised_ bailouts.
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why because the Reps want free market.  If you are unaware that the Pubs were anti the ACA since inception and controlled the house and senate since 2012, and what Trump is doing to finally bring it to an end, well I guess you have not been paying attention.

Take away Medicaid and say good=bye to healthcare as we know it.  The Cadillac tax is not going to take effect, and "Strengthen HSA's, and catastrophic coverage choices" is not going to help those on median income or lower.


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## danielpalos (Oct 27, 2017)

Health care reform is just that, the democrats tried it, the republicans had nothing but repeal.


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## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

danielpalos said:


> Health care reform is just that, the democrats tried it, the republicans had nothing but repeal.



And nothing to replace it with.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


> This is  one nasty women in my opinion



She's a nasty woman for wanting to bring your health care costs down?  EMTALA, while having a noble purpose, has been one of the driving factors in elevating health care costs in this country and resulted in many hospitals, particularly in rural areas, going bankrupt and closing down.  Prior to EMTALA we didn't have people dying in the streets due to lack of treatment, but we had a lot more hospitals and ERs around for much cheaper cost.  The problem with EMTALA is that people use the ER as their primary care facility and never pay the bill because they know they can't be turned away and that raises costs on the rest of us.  I have a friend who is an ER nurse here in Las Vegas she was just telling my wife and I a month ago about a woman who has come into the ER at her hospital over 60 times in just this past year and there is nothing they can do about it.  ER staff should have the authority to turn people away who are not in a true emergency.  That's just plain common sense which is why you don't understand.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Health care reform is just that, the democrats tried it, the republicans had nothing but repeal.
> ...



Replacing it with nothing is exactly what needs to happen.  We need to get government and insurance mostly out of the equation altogether or you are never going to see health care costs drop.


----------



## SeaGal (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


> why because the Reps want free market.  If you are unaware that the Pubs were anti the ACA since inception and controlled the house and senate since 2012, and what Trump is doing to finally bring it to an end, well I guess you have not been paying attention..



One of us wasn't paying attention, true.  The Dems lost the House in 2010 because of ACA - the way it was rammed down the throats of the public - and because it was primarily a payoff to those evil corporations and did little to address health care costs. However, contrary to popular misconception, the Dems held onto the Senate until 2015.



Penelope said:


> Take away Medicaid and say good=bye to healthcare as we know it.    The Cadillac tax is not going to take effect, and "Strengthen HSA's, and catastrophic coverage choices" is not going to help those on median income or lower.



Enact Medicaid or Medicare for all and say good bye to healthcare as we know it...it will then devolve into a two tier system.  There is no one-size-fits-all, as has already been pointed out.   That was the failing of ACA - unintended or intentional, makes no difference.  The result is the same.


----------



## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > This is  one nasty women in my opinion
> ...




You must not remember what health ins use to be like before the ACA. I agree the costs need to be lower, but the GOP wants less coverage cheaper.  Say goodbye to pre existing conditions unless you work for a large company.  you will not be able to afford ins if you have any. That is just too bad about ER's , since the GOP has decided not to do a darn thing about health ins. or medication costs.


----------



## Penelope (Oct 27, 2017)

SeaGal said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > why because the Reps want free market.  If you are unaware that the Pubs were anti the ACA since inception and controlled the house and senate since 2012, and what Trump is doing to finally bring it to an end, well I guess you have not been paying attention..
> ...



The ACA and expanded Medicaid was not one size fits all.  I doubt you know much about the ACA by the way you talk.  The GOP doesn't have a plan, back to the same old garbage, and high prices, you have not seen anything yet, since they are free market , remember.


----------



## Camp (Oct 27, 2017)

Most complaints about the ACA are red herrings. High healthcare costs are attributed to big pharma gouging us all. In addition, pig pharma is responsible for the most serious drug problem in this country. 

Big Pharma executive boards should be dragged out of their country clubs, mansions, yachts, and board meetings and taken behind the woodshed to be shot. If a woodshed is not available anyplace will work just fine.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 27, 2017)

Penelope said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > ScienceRocks said:
> ...



That is simply not true.

What she is saying is that doctors should be able to make the call.  Hospitals should be able to tell you that if you have a cold, you can call your doctor if you are not in deep distress.

Emergency Rooms are for emergencies.

You'd think that would be easy to understand.


----------



## dblack (Oct 28, 2017)

ScienceRocks said:


> LET THEM DIE!
> 
> The republican party is the party of satan.



The thing is, lately it's mostly liberals I hear bitching about EMTALA. It really brings out their "inner selfish prick".


----------



## dblack (Oct 28, 2017)

WinterBorn said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > WinterBorn said:
> ...



The "Let Them Die" thing is a by-product of their fixation on government as the _*only*_ way to solve social problems. In their worldview, if you are opposed to using government to solve a problem, it can only mean you don't want the problem solved! If you don't want government taking over health care, it means you want people to die.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 28, 2017)

dblack said:


> The "Let Them Die" thing is a by-product of their fixation on government as the _*only*_ way to solve social problems. In their worldview, if you are opposed to using government to solve a problem, it can only mean you don't want the problem solved! If you don't want government taking over health care, it means you want people to die.



No, it just means you are indifferent to it if it happens, and that's even a little worse. 

The thing is, the hospitals WILL let people die if they weren't required to treat them.  As it stands now, they give the minimum of care and then ship them off to somewhere else, which is how you have poor people having limbs amputated when they could be saved and shit like that. 

Either health care is a commodity to be bought and sold, and if you can't afford it, fuck you. 

or

It's a basic human right, and has to be provided by whatever means works. 

so which is it?


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 28, 2017)

dblack said:


> The thing is, lately it's mostly liberals I hear bitching about EMTALA. It really brings out their "inner selfish prick".



Well, why they bitch about it is because it creates unnecessary expense. The ER's know the poor people won't pay, so they jack up the prices on the rest of us. 

Simpler solution- universal health care and community clinics. 

THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS FIGURED THIS OUT ALREADY.


----------



## debbiedowner (Oct 28, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > Hence, one solution for this problem is to have the option of an emergency room or clinic at the same or nearby locations with admittance staffs at both that is triage qualified to decide which is appropriate.
> ...



No, every city does not have 24/7 open clinics, you certainly must have only lived in one city.


----------



## dblack (Oct 28, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The "Let Them Die" thing is a by-product of their fixation on government as the _*only*_ way to solve social problems. In their worldview, if you are opposed to using government to solve a problem, it can only mean you don't want the problem solved! If you don't want government taking over health care, it means you want people to die.
> ...



See what I mean?



> Either health care is a commodity to be bought and sold, and if you can't afford it, fuck you.
> 
> or
> 
> ...



Neither of course. 

Health care IS a commodity to be bought and sold (actually, it's a service, but I guess that doesn't have the same ring to it). It will remain that way until doctors and nurses see the light and agree to work for free. But that's not a "fuck you" to anyone. Just a recognition of the reality of the situation.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 29, 2017)

dblack said:


> Neither of course.
> 
> Health care IS a commodity to be bought and sold (actually, it's a service, but I guess that doesn't have the same ring to it). It will remain that way until doctors and nurses see the light and agree to work for free. But that's not a "fuck you" to anyone. Just a recognition of the reality of the situation.



So by that logic, fire fighting and police work is a "service" that is bought and sold because policemen and firefighters don't work for free.  

I'm sure as a rugged individualist, you think people should put out their own fires, though. 

The reality, though, is we don't provide those things on people's ability to pay.  We don't let a tenement of poor children burn down because a rich bitch needs someone to get her cat out of a tree.  

Medical treatment should be the same thing. We take care of the poor kids with cancer, and THEN we take care of the rich-bitch's facelift, if we have any money left over.


----------



## fncceo (Oct 29, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> We don't let a tenement of poor children burn down because a rich bitch needs someone to get her cat out of a tree.



Depends on the cat.


----------



## dblack (Oct 29, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Neither of course.
> ...



That'd be fine with me, actually. If we want to make health care a government services, we should handle it like we do firefighting or education. But I don't hear any of the socialists advocating for that. They want centralized, national control of health care. Nothing less will do.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 29, 2017)

dblack said:


> That'd be fine with me, actually. If we want to make health care a government services, we should handle it like we do firefighting or education. But I don't hear any of the socialists advocating for that. They want centralized, national control of health care. Nothing less will do.



Yes, we don't want Billy Bob out in the red states turning over health care to his cousin Cleetus....


----------



## dblack (Oct 29, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > That'd be fine with me, actually. If we want to make health care a government services, we should handle it like we do firefighting or education. But I don't hear any of the socialists advocating for that. They want centralized, national control of health care. Nothing less will do.
> ...



Because the entire point is to centralize power. Billy Bob and Cleetus aren't corporatists.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 29, 2017)

dblack said:


> Because the entire point is to centralize power. Billy Bob and Cleetus aren't corporatists.



They also aren't competent.


----------



## dblack (Oct 29, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Because the entire point is to centralize power. Billy Bob and Cleetus aren't corporatists.
> ...



Competency doesn't require authoritarian government.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 29, 2017)

dblack said:


> Competency doesn't require authoritarian government.



Again, what you consider Authoritarian and what sensible people consider authoritarian are two different things.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > WinterBorn said:
> ...



A point that seems lost in the conversation.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Competency doesn't require authoritarian government.
> ...



By all means explain the differences as you see them.

Please.

In reading through this thread, i continue to see a lack of coherent supported argument on either side.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

Camp said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > another leftist that is against freedom.
> ...



Can you support this charge with verifiable evidence ?


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 31, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> By all means explain the differences as you see them.
> 
> Please.
> 
> In reading through this thread, i continue to see a lack of coherent supported argument on either side.



No, you don't see the answers you want.  

single payer is how the rest of the world does it, they aren't any less free than we are.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

Penelope said:


> andaronjim said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...





JoeB131 said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > By all means explain the differences as you see them.
> ...



No, I don't see any coherent argument.

BTW: What answers do I want (since you seem to be in the know) ?


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > Pneumonia is often misdiagnosed as being a cold or flu
> ...



Isn't this what prompted "emergicare" type centers ?


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

Penelope said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



I think the contention here is that every doctor will run the tests they believe will probably provide the answers he is looking for.  If that were not the case, everybody would get the same set of full comprehensive tests (at the extreme).  

Those tests are dependent upon what he thinks the issue might be.

There is the term "defensive" medicine:

Defensive medicine - Wikipedia

which is what is being described.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

danielpalos said:


> Health care reform is just that, the democrats tried it, the republicans had nothing but repeal.



Such rhetoric is useless.

1. The GOP does not seem interested in the issues at hand.  They, along with the democrats have done nothing to define an issue to address.
2. The ACA was not what either side wanted.  It have very few upsides and many downsides.  But it was an attempt to address "something" and by that I mean it's goals were not clear (and that is typical of politician on both sides.
3. The GOP has no better an offer now than they had in 2010.  What does that tell you ?  It tells me that there is nothing better because we don't address the fundamental issues associated with health care.
4. The constant bleating about single payer is usless as a final decision as this country will never get there.  It can't.  The transition would never be given the time it needed to take place.

So far this thread has read like all the rest.  People with their conclusions in hand doing nothing but trying to justify them and providing little or no evidence in that regard.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

Penelope said:


> SeaGal said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Health insurance has not been free market for a very long time. Most, if not all, states have an "insurance commissioner" and there were regulations regarding the sale of insurance.

Medicaid is not free market.  It gives people and open checkbook for access to health care with little or no consequence to the person making that decision.

Want into that "super lucrative" insurance market ?  Get out your checkbook.  It will cost you millions to get through the red tape created by the government (and encouraged by the existing industry) that represents a huge barrier to entry.  And then you'll find out, it isn't so lucrative after all.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The "Let Them Die" thing is a by-product of their fixation on government as the _*only*_ way to solve social problems. In their worldview, if you are opposed to using government to solve a problem, it can only mean you don't want the problem solved! If you don't want government taking over health care, it means you want people to die.
> ...



It is clearly a commodity or a good to be bought or sold.  It represents something like 17% of our GDP right now.

A "right" by definition is something available to all at no cost to others.  This is not healthcare.


----------



## dblack (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Competency doesn't require authoritarian government.
> ...



Then feel free to omit "authoritarian". Change my post to "Competancy doesn't require government".


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

dblack said:


> ScienceRocks said:
> 
> 
> > LET THEM DIE!
> ...



While ScienceRocks is clearly partisan in his assertions, can you provide an example of the left wing complaining about EMTALA ?


----------



## dblack (Oct 31, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> While ScienceRocks is clearly partisan in his assertions, can you provide an example of the left wing complaining about EMTALA ?


JoeB131 does so in nearly every ACA thread. It really rubs him raw that "freeloaders" might indirectly cost him money. He's not the only one. Plenty of others here offer the same excuse for why we need insurance mandates.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The "Let Them Die" thing is a by-product of their fixation on government as the _*only*_ way to solve social problems. In their worldview, if you are opposed to using government to solve a problem, it can only mean you don't want the problem solved! If you don't want government taking over health care, it means you want people to die.
> ...



Such a statement is incredible in it's arrogance.

There is no validity at all to your claim of indifference.  

Your statement about "a little worse" really relegates you to the trashbin of unreasonableness.

There have been plenty of solutions offered up that don't include a government component.  Many of them could be considered reasonable.  Most don't allow for the "big one" which seems to be the standard argument against self regulated care.

The "big one" is a real concern and has to be addressed at some level.  But to say an avoidance of a government run or influenced solution is indifferent is to act like a bully of some kind (and you are not very good at it).


----------



## deanrd (Oct 31, 2017)

Two Thumbs said:


> ScienceRocks said:
> 
> 
> > LET THEM DIE!
> ...


Not if you end EMTALA.  Even a double fuckchop such as yourself should understand that.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

dblack said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > While ScienceRocks is clearly partisan in his assertions, can you provide an example of the left wing complaining about EMTALA ?
> ...



O.K.

I was looking for a link or something.

But your point is instructional.  The argument you cite is pretty common.  

Thanks.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

deanrd said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > ScienceRocks said:
> ...



Please support your argument.

There must be some statistic regarding deaths before and after that can be directly attributable to EMTALA.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is, lately it's mostly liberals I hear bitching about EMTALA. It really brings out their "inner selfish prick".
> ...



While a bit oversimplified, it was the trend for a long time.  

ER's in many hospitals have transformed into "combo" units in order to avoid what you call out....simply because sickness and accidents (non-life threatening) don't just happen nine to five (Mon-Friday).  That is why you can sit for a very very long time in an ER.  They know who needs help and who does not (well, they are pretty good at figuring it out).

Universal health care is not a simpler solution.  The issues associated with that are already stacking up with the ACA (and are not the the fault of the ACA).

The rest of the world continues to adjust their universal health care as they figure out what works and what does not.  Which means it isn't perfect.  In some cases it is really a mess.  

Right now, we have the worst of all worlds.  We have the government doing what it does best (propping up big business in the form of health insurnce companies), setting requirements that increase the cost of care and making available to people an unlimited supply of health care with little impact to those who use it.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Neither of course.
> ...



We do buy the services of the police and firefighters.  

We also buy the services of trash haulers.  I lived in a city where there was on hauler.  And prices were simply stupid.  Someone bribed the city council to let them in and we had two.  Guess what happened to prices ?


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

This thread was about the Emergency Medical Treatment And Labor Act (EMTALA).

It mostly contains the same general arguments you'll find in any discussion about health care when people really don't have open minds regarding what they think is "right".

Most unfortunate.


----------



## Penelope (Oct 31, 2017)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



No actually only the Democrats, as we do not want the Ins companies as gate keepers. (and that is what the Pubs are ok with )


----------



## Penelope (Oct 31, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



A city of a tiny town.  That is why the fine needs to be endorsed for no health ins. , even raised.


----------



## dblack (Oct 31, 2017)

Penelope said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Huh?


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 31, 2017)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 does so in nearly every ACA thread. It really rubs him raw that "freeloaders" might indirectly cost him money. He's not the only one. Plenty of others here offer the same excuse for why we need insurance mandates.



Guy, how about posting where I said that instead of mischaracterizing my position, kay?  

What rubs me wrong is that we spend this money inefficiently. We could have single payer, cover everyone and spend half as much.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 31, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> We also buy the services of trash haulers. I lived in a city where there was on hauler. And prices were simply stupid. Someone bribed the city council to let them in and we had two. Guess what happened to prices ?



Someone bribed the city council? Or someone finally said, "Cleetus only done picks up the garbage once every month, and the Raccoons done be getting into it!"


----------



## dblack (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 does so in nearly every ACA thread. It really rubs him raw that "freeloaders" might indirectly cost him money. He's not the only one. Plenty of others here offer the same excuse for why we need insurance mandates.
> ...



So now with the EVIL Corporation Insurance Companies losing their supplemental billions from the gov


----------



## Two Thumbs (Oct 31, 2017)

deanrd said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > ScienceRocks said:
> ...


you're ability to lie in the face of facts is so good, you should go pro


----------



## Indeependent (Oct 31, 2017)

Penelope said:


> U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> 
> Black, a Republican gubernatorial candidate and former nurse, said a federal law, called EMTALA is a "burden" that took away clinicians' ability to tell patients that "an emergency room is not the proper place" for treatment.
> 
> ...


You mean an end to Illegals using Emergency Rooms as Primary Physicians?
Good.
And fuck you!


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

Penelope said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Or the money could go to an HSA instead of the Federal Government.

A much better use.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > We also buy the services of trash haulers. I lived in a city where there was on hauler. And prices were simply stupid. Someone bribed the city council to let them in and we had two. Guess what happened to prices ?
> ...



Is this what you do when you have no argument ?

You seem to do it a great deal (which answers the question).

We do buy the services of the police and firemen.  We pay for them.  They negotiate contracts and if they don't like the contract, they will go on strike (and you'll have sub level performance).  Imagine that.

Cities, to the best of my knowledge don't let you opt in or out.  If you live in the city, you agree to pay.

Counties on the other hand have been known to let homes burn because someone didn't pay the fee.


----------



## MadChemist (Oct 31, 2017)

Penelope said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



So, pray tell....why did the ACA depend on insurance companies ?


----------



## deanrd (Nov 1, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



No one knows exactly what happened, but Bessie Smith, the highest paid black entertainer of her day was reportedly in a traffic accident and died while the ambulance was driving around looking for a hospital that would accept a black person.

Common sense tells you that a for profit institution won't do stuff for "free" unless it's tax deductible and then it's not really "free".


----------



## ScienceRocks (Nov 1, 2017)

Shit like this is why I fight against you damn loserterians so fucking hard. You people don't value life and have no souls inside you. You're truly the kind of people that would sell this country out for a buck and not think twice...What's quality of life to you? Nothing.

You're fake christians as Jesus would be sicken by you! He'd pretty much tell you that you're going straight to hell when you died if you told him about this shit.

If you want a society without any soul and one based on pure fucking greed then get ready for the body bags. This is a case where morality should be important.


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



The Republican's tricked them into it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 1, 2017)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...





dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



So you misrepresented what I said, right?  

Thanks for admitting that. Not that I ever expect Libertarian Retards to be honest.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 1, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> You mean an end to Illegals using Emergency Rooms as Primary Physicians?
> Good.
> And fuck you!



Yup, you're totally not at all racist.  

So let's be honest about what about what EMTLA is. 

It's an unfunded mandate.  If we had poor children regularly dying from treatable diseases because they lacked insurance, there would be the kind of outrage that would actually create a single payer system. so instead, we mandate that they treat the poor at ER's (at three times the cost if we just had regular state-run clinics) and they take the loss and increase the cost to the paying customers using a lot of accounting tricks like charging $100.00 for a dose of tylanol. (Yes, this actually happened when I had my knee surgery.)


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Cute name. "Losertarians" is better though.

Anyway, it sure sounded to me (in the linked post and many others like it) like you were griping about the uninsured getting treated for "free" at emergency rooms, about getting "stiffed with the bill". I thought you were using that as an excuse for forcing everyone to buy insurance from your buddies in the insurance racket.

But hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Maybe I just didn't get the joke.


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You mean an end to Illegals using Emergency Rooms as Primary Physicians?
> ...



This sounds (again) like you're against EMTALA. What gives?


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 1, 2017)

dblack said:


> Cute name. "Losertarians" is better though.
> 
> Anyway, it sure sounded to me (in the linked post and many others like it) like you were griping about the uninsured getting treated for "free" at emergency rooms, about getting "stiffed with the bill". I thought you were using that as an excuse for forcing everyone to buy insurance from your buddies in the insurance racket.
> 
> But hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Maybe I just didn't get the joke.



dude, you are the joke.  LIbertarian Retards are always a joke. They want the benefits of living in civilized society, without the commitments. 

Benefit- we aren't going to let you die of a treatable disease because you don't have money or insurance. 

Commitment- we have to have a system in place to pay for that. 

The problem with EMTLA is that it  uses the most expensive kind of treatment and passes the bills on to everyone else. 

When you could just have single payer and spread those costs out evenly.  But some asshole like you shreiks 'EEEEEEEEKKKKK! Socialism!" and we keep doing the same dumb, expensive, inefficient shit we are doing.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 1, 2017)

dblack said:


> This sounds (again) like you're against EMTALA. What gives?



I am against EMTALA. I want single payer. I've made that pretty fucking clear. 

Is EMTALA better than letting poor children die in the streets, which is what you Libertarian Retards want?  Um, yeah. 

Does that make it a good system? Not really.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 1, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You mean an end to Illegals using Emergency Rooms as Primary Physicians?
> ...


Show your SSN and get treatment.
You jumped over the border, go back home.
I know your diseased Liberal brain couldn't figure that one out without a flowchart smacking whatever's left of your "poor little darkies" racist brain.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 1, 2017)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


If Penelope described it incorrectly, discuss it with her.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 1, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Show your SSN and get treatment.
> You jumped over the border, go back home.
> I know your diseased Liberal brain couldn't figure that one out without a flowchart smacking whatever's left of your "poor little darkies" racist brain.



How many people know their SSN by heart?  How many carry their SSN Cards with them?  Maybe they had it with them and a mugger took it from them when they were injured for whatever they are going to the ER for. 

What if the illegals have a fake SSN? 

You see how your logic falls apart.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 1, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Show your SSN and get treatment.
> ...


That had to be the most racist post ever saying that minorities are too stupid to know 9 digits.
You're pathetic.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 1, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> That had to be the most racist post ever saying that minorities are too stupid to know 9 digits.
> You're pathetic.



Most people don't memorize their SSN.  The only reason I know mine by heart is because the military used them as serial numbers.  But do try to keep pretending you don't come off as racist as shit on this board, buddy.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 1, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > That had to be the most racist post ever saying that minorities are too stupid to know 9 digits.
> ...


Bullshit.
I had to go to the Nassau County Department of Social Services for a year and half to get my mother-in-law approved for Medicaid and I paid attention...everyone knows their SSN.
Stop embarrassing yourself.


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> [Is EMTALA better than letting poor children die in the streets, which is what you Libertarian Retards want?  Um, yeah.



This is the same false dilemma you Inject into most of these discussions. Someone doesn't agree with your favorite solution to a given problem and, rather than address their concerns, you simply claim that they are indifferent to the problem. Which is chickenshit.

People opposed to banning abortions aren't "in favor" of abortions. People opposed to the "War on Drugs" aren't fans of addiction. People opposed to the PATRIOT ACT aren't supporters of terrorism. And people opposed to socializing health care aren't indifferent to suffering. They just think you're idiot.


----------



## debbiedowner (Nov 1, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > MadChemist said:
> ...



You have to have a compatible health insurance plan to have an HSA.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Bullshit.
> I had to go to the Nassau County Department of Social Services for a year and half to get my mother-in-law approved for Medicaid and I paid attention...everyone knows their SSN.
> Stop embarrassing yourself.



Um, dude, that was a department where you had to get that info before you showed up. We were talking about someone showing up at an emergency room and having to produce that number when they are maybe injured, to prove they aren't a Mexican or something.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

dblack said:


> This is the same false dilemma you Inject into most of these discussions. Someone doesn't agree with your favorite solution to a given problem and, rather than address their concerns, you simply claim that they are indifferent to the problem. Which is chickenshit.



again, you guys haven't provided me with the solution that promises me a kid won't die in the street.  

So you might not be in favor of it, but you are okay if it happens. That's the thing.  

EMTALA is a solution that avoids the obvious answer. The obvious answer is Health Care as a Public Service.


----------



## dblack (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > This is the same false dilemma you Inject into most of these discussions. Someone doesn't agree with your favorite solution to a given problem and, rather than address their concerns, you simply claim that they are indifferent to the problem. Which is chickenshit.
> ...



No. This is the same demagoguery thrown up to defend any hare-brained scheme someone comes up with. Just because we don't want to socialize medicine doesn't mean we are okay with kids dying in the street. And we don't need to meet your "demands" for an alternative solution to prove it.

Again, this is political demagoguery, nothing more. Just because someone thinks your socialist pipedream is bullshit, doesn't mean they are indifferent to suffering. Insisting that this is so only makes you are a bigot ascribing evil intent to anyone who disagrees with you.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

dblack said:


> No. This is the same demagoguery thrown up to defend any hare-brained scheme someone comes up with. Just because we don't want to socialize medicine doesn't mean we are okay with kids dying in the street. And we don't need to meet your "demands" for an alternative solution to prove it.
> 
> Again, this is political demagoguery, nothing more. Just because someone thinks your socialist pipedream is bullshit, doesn't mean they are indifferent to suffering. Insisting that this is so only makes you are a bigot ascribing evil intent to anyone who disagrees with you.



Libertarianism at the end of the day is an excuse for selfishness.  

Had a saying in the Army.  "If you see something wrong and you do nothing about it, you've set a new standard!"


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 2, 2017)

deanrd said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > deanrd said:
> ...



I am not interested in an appeal to "common sense".  That is not an argument.

You must have some statistics that support your argument....don't you ?

If you claim that endingEMTALA will cause a disruption or a change in some kind of performance, you surely have data from before EMTALA........to support your claim.

Otherwise, it is baseless.  Would you not expect the same of someone making the same kind of claim ?

I am just asking you to share.


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 2, 2017)

debbiedowner said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



I am no expert in this area.  However, I do recall being told that my HSA is portable and that it will be with me for as long as I have money in there (even if I terminate my employment).  

Next, I found this on the web.  I can't vouch for it's accuracy so if you have better information, I would be grateful:

A health savings account usually supplements one's current insurance coverage, although with some HSAs you don't have to have insurance coverage.

Quick Comparison of 3 Types of Health Savings Accounts


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit.
> ...


Sorry guy, my work involves people from all backgrounds and they come prepared.  No one comes to vote not knowing their name and address.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Sorry guy, my work involves people from all backgrounds and they come prepared. No one comes to vote not knowing their name and address.



Do they come to vote after they had just been in a car accident or during a major medical crisis?


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry guy, my work involves people from all backgrounds and they come prepared. No one comes to vote not knowing their name and address.
> ...


Your overall disdain for the IQ of minorities is disgusting.
In answer to your question, I had two in-laws who went through dementia and alzheimers for a few years and visited a plethora of ERs and discovered that minorities are not the helpless retards Liberals paint them out to be.
You are a condescending racist.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Your overall disdain for the IQ of minorities is disgusting.
> In answer to your question, I had two in-law who went through dementia and alzheimers for a few years and visited a plethora of ERs and discovered that minorities are not the helpless retards Liberals paint them out to be.



Again, you are dancing around the issue. Not everyone memorizes their SSN Number.  

Not everyone carries a copy of their SSN around with them. 

Some people actually use STOLEN SSN cards. 

so your whacky idea of "let them die if they can't produce an SSN, those fucking beaners!" is just more of your racist crazy.


----------



## dblack (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Libertarianism at the end of the day is an excuse for selfishness.


 
Nope. It's a call for liberty and mutual respect. You wouldn't understand.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Your overall disdain for the IQ of minorities is disgusting.
> ...


You're a racist, pure and simple.
I'll tell you what...you can start a charity to pay for Ilegals so elderly citizens don't have to lose their homes to tax burden foreclose.

I would love to see you walk into a restaurant in Roosevelt or Uniondale and tell the Illegals there how they can't handle an emergency.
But first name me as a beneficiary on your Life Insurance Policy.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

dblack said:


> Nope. It's a call for liberty and mutual respect. You wouldn't understand.



I think when you let someone's kid die in the street because they don't have insurance, you aren't "respecting" them all that much.  

seriously, talking to libertarians is like talking to a five year old throwing a tantrum.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > No. This is the same demagoguery thrown up to defend any hare-brained scheme someone comes up with. Just because we don't want to socialize medicine doesn't mean we are okay with kids dying in the street. And we don't need to meet your "demands" for an alternative solution to prove it.
> ...


I agree with you concerning Libertarians.  Selfish MFers.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> You're a racist, pure and simple.
> I'll tell you what...you can start a charity to pay for Ilegals so elderly citizens don't have to lose their homes to tax burden foreclose.
> 
> I would love to see you walk into a restaurant in Roosevelt or Uniondale and tell the Illegals there how they can't handle an emergency.
> But first name me as a beneficiary on your Life Insurance Policy.



Guy, you are the one who is trying to deny them health care, not me. 

I want to see you go in there and say, "You fucking wetbacks get out of my country".  

That would be amusing.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You're a racist, pure and simple.
> ...


I'm happy to treat them once and then escort them to the border.
Of course the courtesy they extend to trespassers is a body bag; but we won't bring that up.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> I'm happy to treat them once and then escort them to the border.
> Of course the courtesy they extend to trespassers is a body bag; but we won't bring that up.



No, we won't bring up your wank fantasies...


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Nov 2, 2017)

Penelope said:


> U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> 
> Black, a Republican gubernatorial candidate and former nurse, said a federal law, called EMTALA is a "burden" that took away clinicians' ability to tell patients that "an emergency room is not the proper place" for treatment.
> 
> ...



When arguing for BOcare, many Libs claimed it would allow people currently without health insurance, who use the ER as their personal doctor, to stop that practice. So now that Libs have their communist healthcare system, shouldn’t we at least try to save money and make emergency rooms more efficient? I have been to the emergency room and seen low income people there with their kids who are suffering from a flu or cold seeking treatment. It is inefficient, wasteful and delays getting emergency treatment for people who actually need it. I think if you walk into an emergency room seeking service with a non-emergency condition, you should be charged double the cost, and then have the shit kicked out of you so you know what it feels like to need emergency care.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

BuckToothMoron said:


> When arguing for BOcare, many Libs claimed it would allow people currently without health insurance, who use the ER as their personal doctor, to stop that practice. So now that Libs have their communist healthcare system, shouldn’t we at least try to save money and make emergency rooms more efficient? I have been to the emergency room and seen low income people there with their kids who are suffering from a flu or cold seeking treatment. It is inefficient, wasteful and delays getting emergency treatment for people who actually need it. I think if you walk into an emergency room seeking service with a non-emergency condition, you should be charged double the cost, and then have the shit kicked out of you so you know what it feels like to need emergency care.



What is this bizarre thing about the right wing where they think being poor is something that deserves to be punished?


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I'm happy to treat them once and then escort them to the border.
> ...


Like the fact that Mexico kills trespassers?
Yeah...


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Like the fact that Mexico kills trespassers?
> Yeah...



I'm sure that's a story you exchange at your "We hate the darkies" meetings.


----------



## dblack (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



And you're both just wanking off to your fantasies.


----------



## dblack (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. It's a call for liberty and mutual respect. You wouldn't understand.
> ...


And I'm fed up with your baseless accusations. Try to find one post where I've said we should "let 'em die", or anything remotely like it. You won't have any luck, because you're lying.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

dblack said:


> And I'm fed up with your baseless accusations. Try to find one post where I've said we should "let 'em die", or anything remotely like it. You won't have any luck, because you're lying.



Just because you pretend that won't be the end result, doesn't mean it won't be the end result.


----------



## dblack (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > And I'm fed up with your baseless accusations. Try to find one post where I've said we should "let 'em die", or anything remotely like it. You won't have any luck, because you're lying.
> ...



Prove it. That's what real debate and political discussion is about. If you really think that your solution is the only way to avoid children dying in the streets, make your case. It'd be a lot more persuasive than simply demonizing anyone who disagrees.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 2, 2017)

dblack said:


> Prove it. That's what real debate and political discussion is about. If you really think that your solution is the only way to avoid children dying in the streets, make your case. It'd be a lot more persuasive than simply demonizing anyone who disagrees.



Prove it? All I have to do is look back at what Hospitals did before EMTALA was passed. 

You know, what you Libertarians like to call "The Good Old Days when we done had us some freedom, Cleetus". 

Why patients still need EMTALA

_“When I started practicing in 1976, I witnessed substantial economic discrimination against patients,” said Dr. Robert Bitterman, an emergency physician and attorney who advises hospitals facing EMTALA investigations. “EMTALA largely changed the very bad behavior that was going on in the 1970s and 1980s. It still happens occasionally, but this isn't common anymore.”

The impetus for EMTALA was an epidemic of patient transfers that were widely seen as inappropriate and dangerous for patients, including pregnant women in labor being turned away from emergency rooms. *Studies showed that in the early 1980s, there were about 250,000 transfers a year from private hospitals to public or Veterans Health Administration hospitals.

Nearly 90% were for economic reasons, with 24% of these patients unstable at the time of transfer. Their mortality rate was triple that of other patients. *In Chicago during the 1980s, 89% of transferred patients were black or Hispanic, according to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine._


AGAIN, THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO. 

Except it would probably be worse, given that medicine has become even more corporatized than it was 30 years ago.


----------



## debbiedowner (Nov 2, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> debbiedowner said:
> 
> 
> > MadChemist said:
> ...



Well, you did not clarify. If you leave your job it's yours to keep but only for medical expenses. If an individual wants to start a new HSA (nothing to do with employment) they cannot unless they have a compatible health insurance plan.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Like the fact that Mexico kills trespassers?
> ...


You're so full of shit with almost every post.
I can't wait for you to step over the border without their permission.


----------



## dblack (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Prove it. That's what real debate and political discussion is about. If you really think that your solution is the only way to avoid children dying in the streets, make your case. It'd be a lot more persuasive than simply demonizing anyone who disagrees.
> ...



Apart from the gratuitous insults, and the occasional logical fallacy, that was at least something like an argument. Thank you.

There is no 'going back' to anything. We don't have that option. We can only go forward.

I don't have a real beef with EMTALA. I think it's mostly insignificant when compared to the other inflationary pressures on the health care market. It does transfer some cost, via the unfunded mandate, but I don't think we'd gain much in repealing it.

I just get a kick out of watching the very people who insist that we have stupid laws like EMTALA in the first place, bitching about the cost transfers. Cost transfers are the point of unfunded mandates. It's like you're arguing with yourself.


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 2, 2017)

debbiedowner said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > debbiedowner said:
> ...



I believe the article I quoted indicates you don't have to have insurance coverage.


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 2, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Harsh.

But true.

There is no argument unless you count pulling the wafting ideas of the intellectuals out of the sky and calling them "facts".


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 3, 2017)

dblack said:


> There is no 'going back' to anything. We don't have that option. We can only go forward.
> 
> I don't have a real beef with EMTALA. I think it's mostly insignificant when compared to the other inflationary pressures on the health care market. It does transfer some cost, via the unfunded mandate, but I don't think we'd gain much in repealing it.
> 
> I just get a kick out of watching the very people who insist that we have stupid laws like EMTALA in the first place, bitching about the cost transfers. Cost transfers are the point of unfunded mandates. It's like you're arguing with yourself.



Oh, quit trying to weasel your way out of it.  

EMTALA is the result of not passing single payer in the 1970's when we should have. And, yes, the total of uncompensated care is 40 Billion a year, about 6% of total hospital expenses. But that's just where it starts, because when you add on the costs of collection agencies and bankruptcies, it just gets higher. 

Who pays when someone without insurance shows up in the ER?


----------



## debbiedowner (Nov 3, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> debbiedowner said:
> 
> 
> > MadChemist said:
> ...



https://www.depauw.edu/files/resources/hsa-communication-series.pdf


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 3, 2017)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Why should facts get in the way of an emotional lie.

Truth is not the objective of zealots.


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 3, 2017)

debbiedowner said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > debbiedowner said:
> ...



Although from 2012, I can't find much that does not repeat the same thing.  In rereading my article it does make the claim I quoted...but says nothing ore (and later on does say for an HSA you need an insurance program.....not sure what they were referencing).  

Thanks for the clarrification.


----------



## dblack (Nov 3, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > There is no 'going back' to anything. We don't have that option. We can only go forward.
> ...



All we have to do to resolve the cost shifting of EMTALA is fund it. Raise tax revenues to match the 40 billion a year and compensate the hospitals for the care. I wonder what the excuses are for not doing the obvious.


----------



## anotherlife (Nov 3, 2017)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



This is exactly the problem with the socialist.  They don't pay taxes so they are quick to raise tax revenue, from the pockets of those who work.  Very unethical.


----------



## dblack (Nov 3, 2017)

anotherlife said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Sure, but at least it would be a fully informed decision. As it is, Congress hides the real cost of its programs by making others pay for them. Unfunded mandates are a blatant abuse of government power.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 3, 2017)

dblack said:


> All we have to do to resolve the cost shifting of EMTALA is fund it. Raise tax revenues to match the 40 billion a year and compensate the hospitals for the care. I wonder what the excuses are for not doing the obvious.



Rich people need tax cuts?  

Seriously, the thing is, if you do that, then you are going to be amazed how fast that $40 B will go up as Hospital Corporations say, "Hey, there's a bag full of money to go after".  

Again- why you need single payer, because you need someone to control these costs through national policy, not how Big Health, Big Insurance and Big Pharma can scam the system.


----------



## debbiedowner (Nov 3, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> debbiedowner said:
> 
> 
> > MadChemist said:
> ...



Although you can take your employer HSA with you unless you get a compatible plan afterwards you cannot continue to contribute, but you can use or deplete it for medical expenses.


----------



## dblack (Nov 3, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > All we have to do to resolve the cost shifting of EMTALA is fund it. Raise tax revenues to match the 40 billion a year and compensate the hospitals for the care. I wonder what the excuses are for not doing the obvious.
> ...



??? No. What are you getting at?



> Seriously, the thing is, if you do that, then you are going to be amazed how fast that $40 B will go up as Hospital Corporations say, "Hey, there's a bag full of money to go after".
> 
> Again- why you need single payer, because you need someone to control these costs through national policy, not how Big Health, Big Insurance and Big Pharma can scam the system.



Single payer would be no different than Medicare. It would all be farmed out to private insurance companies anyway.. The only difference is that government will be buying our insurance for us, with our tax money. And we'll have precious little say in the matter.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 4, 2017)

dblack said:


> Single payer would be no different than Medicare. It would all be farmed out to private insurance companies anyway.. The only difference is that government will be buying our insurance for us, with our tax money. And we'll have precious little say in the matter.



We have precious little say in the matter now.  Except with single payer, everyone will be covered.


----------



## dblack (Nov 4, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Single payer would be no different than Medicare. It would all be farmed out to private insurance companies anyway.. The only difference is that government will be buying our insurance for us, with our tax money. And we'll have precious little say in the matter.
> ...



We have much less say with ACA, that's true. But single payer would be even worse in that regard. That's the problem with socialism. We'll get what government thinks we ought to have, and nothing more.


----------



## JoeB131 (Nov 4, 2017)

dblack said:


> We have much less say with ACA, that's true. But single payer would be even worse in that regard. That's the problem with socialism. We'll get what government thinks we ought to have, and nothing more.



Which for a lot of people, is more than they have now.  

Again- rest of the world has figured this out.  

The thing about people like you who favor SIngle Payer isn't that you want to be "Free" of insurnace.  My guess is, you grab your employer's insurance package with both hands. 

You're horrified at the thought some poor person can get the same thing. 


Eeeeek, Socialism. 

I bet you if the rich had to go to the same hospitals the poor had to go to, we'd fix health care in a hurry in this country.


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 4, 2017)

dblack said:


> Single payer would be no different than Medicare. It would all be farmed out to private insurance companies anyway.. The only difference is that government will be buying our insurance for us, with our tax money. And we'll have precious little say in the matter.



This seems to be the point nobody gets.

What's worse is that the transition period would be across several sessions of congress, any of which could screw with it along the way.


----------



## anotherlife (Nov 4, 2017)

dblack said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



The problem with congress is that it brings it into the legislative domain.  Once that happens, people get beat up and robbed with new laws.  Keeping it unfounded at least protects working people.


----------



## dblack (Nov 4, 2017)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > We have much less say with ACA, that's true. But single payer would be even worse in that regard. That's the problem with socialism. We'll get what government thinks we ought to have, and nothing more.
> ...



I don't think it would be. The people who can't afford health care now get whatever health care government thinks they should have. Single payer doesn't really change things for them - it changes things for everyone else. We all be a the mercy of government when it comes to health care. We'll all get the health care that government thinks we should have. Given that our government is, all-too-often, run by miscreants like Trump, it's not a comforting thought.


----------



## dblack (Nov 4, 2017)

anotherlife said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



I couldn't disagree more. Unfunded doesn't mean we don't pay for it. It doesn't help working people. I just lets Congress continue to expand the scope of government without raising taxes.


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 4, 2017)

ScienceRocks said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> ...



Take up arms ?


----------



## Penelope (Nov 5, 2017)

MadChemist said:


> ScienceRocks said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Read the second amendment and why is was wrote.


----------



## anotherlife (Nov 5, 2017)

dblack said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



And you pointed out the essence of the problem here.  Unfunded may make you indebted. But taxes make you a slave.  That's worse.


----------



## MadChemist (Nov 6, 2017)

Penelope said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > ScienceRocks said:
> ...



To take up arms against your political opponents ?

I don't think so.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Nov 25, 2020)

WinterBorn said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Is that the way they write in Tuscaloosa?  The abbreviation is "etc." not "ect". Thank you for your attention in this matter.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Nov 25, 2020)

Penelope said:


> MadChemist said:
> 
> 
> > ScienceRocks said:
> ...



"why is was wrote"  WTF does that suppose to mean?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 25, 2020)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > There is no 'going back' to anything. We don't have that option. We can only go forward.
> ...


One more reason to solve simple poverty via existing legal and physical infrastructure.


----------



## Penelope (Nov 25, 2020)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > MadChemist said:
> ...


Fricken go to prison if you want to take up arms.  It was meant to be militias and we have the NG now.


----------



## Dick Foster (Nov 25, 2020)

Penelope said:


> U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> 
> Black, a Republican gubernatorial candidate and former nurse, said a federal law, called EMTALA is a "burden" that took away clinicians' ability to tell patients that "an emergency room is not the proper place" for treatment.
> 
> ...


Well I for one am all for it. An emergency room is no place for a scraped knee or a case of sniffles.


----------



## WinterBorn (Nov 25, 2020)

danielpalos said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



And how do you propose to do that?


----------



## Penelope (Nov 25, 2020)

Dick Foster said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> ...



Maybe not, but its free.  And urgent care wants money up front.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Nov 25, 2020)

Penelope said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


It was meant for BLM/ANTIFA who show up at your house wanting you to give it up to them....Yeah, sure, i will give them free stuff 1 pull of the trigger at a time...


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Nov 25, 2020)

Penelope said:


> U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.



And she is correct in wanting that


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## Penelope (Nov 25, 2020)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. Rep. Diane Black would like to see changes to a federal law to allow emergency department staff to turn patients away.
> ...



I believe she is not in her right mind.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Nov 25, 2020)

Penelope said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Your dementia has progressed where you cannot read or write?


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