# Sexless marriages thrust Japan to brink of demographic disaster



## -Cp (Apr 5, 2005)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,7369,1451704,00.html#obvious

The sexless marriage is one of several reasons why experts fear Japan is on the verge of a demographic disaster.


----------



## Annie (Apr 5, 2005)

-Cp said:
			
		

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,7369,1451704,00.html#obvious
> 
> The sexless marriage is one of several reasons why experts fear Japan is on the verge of a demographic disaster.



Wow, that suks. Bad enough to be married, but no sex?


----------



## -Cp (Apr 5, 2005)

Kathianne said:
			
		

> Wow, that suks. Bad enough to be married, but no sex?




"..The problem is that their husbands lose interest in sex or don't want sex from the start. *Many men think of their wives as substitute mothers, not as women with emotional and sexual needs...."*

*The 200 women a year who seek help at a clinic in the Tokyo suburbs have not had sex with their husbands in up to 20 years, and some never, according to Kim Myong-gan, who runs the clinic.*


----------



## Annie (Apr 5, 2005)

-Cp said:
			
		

> "..The problem is that their husbands lose interest in sex or don't want sex from the start. *Many men think of their wives as substitute mothers, not as women with emotional and sexual needs...."*
> 
> *The 200 women a year who seek help at a clinic in the Tokyo suburbs have not had sex with their husbands in up to 20 years, and some never, according to Kim Myong-gan, who runs the clinic.*



Forgive me for my bluntness. 20 years? Well at that point,


----------



## freeandfun1 (Apr 5, 2005)

I deal with Koreans a lot because of my business and Koreans are much like the Japanese.  Korean men will tell you that they have two wives.  The mother of their children and then their real wife.  The one they have sex with.

Many marriages are still arranged.  Not in the sense they were even just 20 years ago, but if the family does not approve of a girl, you cannot marry her.  Therefore, men end up marrying women they feel would make good children, but other than that, they want no part of the relationship.  I have seen this up close and personal as I have met many of my clients' mistresses while having never met their married wives in over 10 years of knowing them.  In only very few cases have I actually met the women the men are married to.  Also, I hate to admit it, but my own brother-in-law is much the same.  The last time I was in Korea he told me hadn't had sex with his wife in over 15 years (his wife is my wife's sister).  He told me, "don't worry though, I have a nice mistress I will introduce you to one day....".  I have known him for nearly 20 years now and this was the first time he ever confirmed to me that he had a mistress although I have suspected it for many years.


----------



## freeandfun1 (Apr 5, 2005)

> Kim Myong-gan



lol - that is a Korean name.  She must be a Korean-Japanese.  There are many of them.


----------



## freeandfun1 (Apr 5, 2005)

-Cp said:
			
		

> *demographic disaster*.



This is NOTHING new as this has been in practice for centuries.  Why now is it a problem? (not mentally for the women mind you, but in terms of creating a "_demographic disaster_"?)


----------



## Said1 (Apr 6, 2005)

freeandfun1 said:
			
		

> This is NOTHING new as this has been in practice for centuries.  Why now is it a problem? (not mentally for the women mind you, but in terms of creating a *"demographic disaster"?)*




LOL. Even _if _Japan has a declining birth rate, the natural rate of increase propably does not equate anything close to disaster.


----------



## Avatar4321 (Apr 6, 2005)

-Cp said:
			
		

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,7369,1451704,00.html#obvious
> 
> The sexless marriage is one of several reasons why experts fear Japan is on the verge of a demographic disaster.



wow sexless marriage. that would kind of destroy everything i believed in. I cant imagine.


----------



## Nienna (Apr 6, 2005)

*Many men think of their wives as substitute mothers, not as women with emotional and sexual needs." * 

I've seen a lot of this here in America!

What a strange way to deal with things. Have kids and a family with one woman, but no other sex, but lots of sex with another woman and no family. Seems like this would be a huge detriment to father-child bonding. Sex is a bonding experience. If you don't bond with the mother, doesn't it follow that you wouldn't bond with the children of her body? And wouldn't a man want to have children with the woman he is in a sexual/love relationship with? Of course, my not being a man, maybe they feel differently about this?


----------



## Joz (Apr 6, 2005)

One of my children's teachers was from China.  She married an Asian gentleman but was not her specific nationality & is forbidden to return to her home.

Her father was in government & a businessman. She remembers, as a child, sitting in the livingroom of her father's girlfriend's,  while girlfriend & dad were in the bedroom.  
The girlfriend worked in the business that dad owned & the mother had trained her.  Mother raised the children and entertained or went with Dad when the dignitaries needed to be met.


----------



## Nienna (Apr 6, 2005)

This seems like it is something like what you hear about in Saudi Arabia, minus the abuse. I don't know how I could deal if I knew I was nothing to my husband but a home manager/ baby factory (although sometimes I feel like that _is_ what I am! : )


----------



## Joz (Apr 6, 2005)

mom4 said:
			
		

> *Many men think of their wives as substitute mothers, not as women with emotional and sexual needs." *
> I've seen a lot of this here in America!


This is always my argument in all these relationship threads.  IF men treated women like they are suppose to, women would _respond_ to men like they want.


----------



## dmp (Apr 6, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> This is always my argument in all these relationship threads.  IF men treated women like they are suppose to, women would _respond_ to men like they want.




it's a viscious circle...

If women treated men like they are supposed to, Men would _respond_ to women like they want.


----------



## Joz (Apr 6, 2005)

-=d=- said:
			
		

> it's a viscious circle...
> 
> If women treated men like they are supposed to, Men would _respond_ to women like they want.


I can't argue there.  But _someone_ has to be the one to "give in".  What do you think a man would do, if he required sex, say 4 times a week, and he got it, 4 times a week?  Think he wouldn't do whatever he could to please her?


----------



## Nienna (Apr 6, 2005)

-=d=- said:
			
		

> it's a viscious circle...
> 
> If women treated men like they are supposed to, Men would _respond_ to women like they want.



I think it is both women and men. I have seen women emotionally neuter men, or just get all passive aggressive and "fine," and expect men to understand them when the man has no clue. It's not fair. Women are, generally speaking, more tuned in to relationships, so they (IMO) have more of a responsibility to be patient, explain things, etc.

However, women are much more likely to want to work on a relationship; whereas, men want to bury their heads and pretend like nothing is wrong, or that it is all the woman's problem. 

It's both genders.


----------



## dmp (Apr 6, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I can't argue there.  But _someone_ has to be the one to "give in".  What do you think a man would do, if he required sex, say 4 times a week, and he got it, 4 times a week?  Think he wouldn't do whatever he could to please her?




So...you may not know it but you are describing me   ...and I do whatever I can (and she lets me) do to please her...thing is...that usually isn't in the bedroom....it's more like 'Dishes..vacuuming...getting down boxes from up high...taking her shopping for saws and sanders and stuff, etc. 

(sigh)


----------



## Nienna (Apr 6, 2005)

-=d=- said:
			
		

> So...you may not know it but you are describing me   ...and I do whatever I can (and she lets me) do to please her...thing is...that usually isn't in the bedroom....it's more like 'Dishes..vacuuming...getting down boxes from up high...taking her shopping for saws and sanders and stuff, etc.
> 
> (sigh)



sex begins in the kitchen... or, er-- the woodshop!


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

mom4 said:
			
		

> *Many men think of their wives as substitute mothers, not as women with emotional and sexual needs." *
> 
> I've seen a lot of this here in America!
> 
> What a strange way to deal with things. Have kids and a family with one woman, but no other sex, but lots of sex with another woman and no family. Seems like this would be a huge detriment to father-child bonding. Sex is a bonding experience. If you don't bond with the mother, doesn't it follow that you wouldn't bond with the children of her body? And wouldn't a man want to have children with the woman he is in a sexual/love relationship with? Of course, my not being a man, maybe they feel differently about this?




   VERY generally speaking, it appears that there are two types of men. One that has his main goal as "settling down" and having a family and another that is primarily interested in continuing to seek sexual gratification where ever he can. Anthropology 101 told me that it was mens' natural urge to sow as many wild oats wherever he could with the hopes that his efforts would ensure the survival of the species. Women on the other hand were to attract the strongest and best provider for their children so that she could ensure the safety and culturization of the offspring.
    Marriage, however, does not fit this apparently natural tendency and with differing sexual appetites conflicts arise. If both spouses feel that the ultimate purpose of marriage is too have sex anytime you want it, one will ultimately "have" to have sex when they don't really want to for this fantasy to play out.
   Of all the ways there are to break ones marriage vows, infidelity appears to be seen as most grievous. Both sexes excuses usually fall into the general category of " but my needs were not being met ". This to me would point to either an inabilty to take care of ones own needs when the spouse was not willing/able OR some undocumented wedding vows or expectations that have never been agreed upon or even discussed that include " When I need something, it's YOUR responsibilty to provide it".
   Some may even see everything as ones' own responsiblty to provide for their own needs but attempt to do that vicariously by manipulating the spouse to do it for them. If this fails, it becomes apparent that some one is to blame here !
   I think it would serve relationships better if they were seen as opportunities to share in care taking duties and realizing that marriage DOES NOT guarantee eternal satisfaction. Some times ya just do without.


----------



## Nienna (Apr 6, 2005)

But what about the father-child bond? Does being in a non-sexual relationship with the child's mother, while being in a sexual relationship with another woman affect the feelings a father has toward his child? From a man's point of view?


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

mom4 said:
			
		

> But what about the father-child bond? Does being in a non-sexual relationship with the child's mother, while being in a sexual relationship with another woman affect the feelings a father has toward his child? From a man's point of view?



I would think that it would affect it in the fact that it would confuse the child but many men have good relationships with their kids inspite of a poor relationship with their wives. I doubt that the child knows the details of his fathers' sexual activities but it's a whole different culture as some have stated.


----------



## Nienna (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Anthropology 101 told me that it was mens' natural urge to sow as many wild oats wherever he could with the hopes that his efforts would ensure the survival of the species. Women on the other hand were to attract the strongest and best provider for their children so that she could ensure the safety and culturization of the offspring.



I have a different take on this, since I do not believe in the theory of evolution.

In Paradise, where mankind was originally created, there was no need for a man to protect or provide. There was no danger and no want. A man was free to use his energies on impressing his mate, thus fulfilling her need to feel special. She would in turn give him admiration, fulfilling his need to feel special. It was all ruined when they sinned and were cast out of Paradise.

My theory is that man's testosterone levels increased greatly, thereby increasing his competitiveness, necessary in order to provide for and protect the family unit. But it also increased his sex drive, and that coupled with the increase of selfishness (sin) in the world, are what motivate men to sow their wild oats.

Women, being physically weaker had to submit themselves to their husband's protection. God cursed Eve "Though your desire will be for your husband, he will be your master." (Genesis 3:16b) The complementary partnership that God intended the marital relationship to be was ruined. Much strife between man and woman is the _natural_ desire to live out what they were intended for in a world where Paradise no longer exists.


----------



## Said1 (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> it's a whole different culture as some have stated.



While that's probably true, I know several men who behave that way. Their wives are for one thing, and "women" are for another. Their children are very messed up too.


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> While that's probably true, I know several men who behave that way. Their wives are for one thing, and "women" are for another. Their children are very messed up.




Oh ya---I've seen them here too. When parents aren't on pretty much the same page, it's always the kids who suffer the most. I do think however that bonding can be achieved with your children---even if the parents are divorced.


----------



## Annie (Apr 6, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> While that's probably true, I know several men who behave that way. Their wives are for one thing, and "women" are for another. Their children are very messed up too.



Sounds a lot like my ex. :teeth: "I don't want a divorce, but I want to do..." 

He managed to get a judge to demand a psychiatric evaluation for him, after responding, "I'll pay what I'm ordered to pay, but no more. What good have the kids done for me? They don't want to see me, spend time with me, they won't come to family gatherings which have caused me to be uncomfortable with family members..." The children were 6, 8, 9. They weren't doing 'anything' for him.


----------



## Said1 (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Oh ya---I've seen them here too. When parents aren't on pretty much the same page, it's always the kids who suffer the most. I do think however that bonding can be achieved with your children---even if the parents are divorced.



I think they can bond too. I should have been clearer, I meant their children are in really bad relationships, especially their daughters. Their sons of course act like them.


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> I think they can bond too. I should have been clearer, I meant their children are in really bad relationships, especially their daughters. Their sons of course act like them.



Usually--- but I've seen some boys who detest their fathers  for either real or implanted reasons.


----------



## Said1 (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Usually--- but I've seen some boys who detest their fathers  for either real or implanted reasons.




Oh sure, but in the end they wind up more like them than not. In my experiences anyway.


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> Oh sure, but in the end they wind up more like them than not. In my experiences anyway.



Takes all kinds---guess that's why they say be careful in selecting a mate.


----------



## Said1 (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Takes all kinds---guess that's why they say be careful in selecting a mate.




Hmmm, my fortune cookie never said that.


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> Hmmm, my fortune cookie never said that.




Damn commie chinese totally ruined your life---those bastards !!!  :bat:


----------



## Trinity (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Takes all kinds---guess that's why they say be careful in selecting a mate.




No shit!! or you may pay dearly!


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

Trinity said:
			
		

> No shit!! or you may pay dearly!


LOLI already have but I can still try to warn others. Seems like we have a lot with that experience already here though


----------



## Trinity (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> LOLI already have but I can still try to warn others. Seems like we have a lot with that experience already here though




Yeah I think so! and I am paying now!  :bangheads


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 6, 2005)

Trinity said:
			
		

> Yeah I think so! and I am paying now!  :bangheads



LOL sorry to hear it---it's a bitch ain't it ? oh well--some days are better than others.


----------



## Trinity (Apr 6, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> LOL sorry to hear it---it's a bitch ain't it ? oh well--some days are better than others.




Yeah it is!


----------



## Avatar4321 (Apr 7, 2005)

mom4 said:
			
		

> sex begins in the kitchen... or, er-- the woodshop!



Note to self: get a woodshop


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 7, 2005)

Avatar4321 said:
			
		

> Note to self: get a woodshop



a word  of caution--"splinters"


----------



## Avatar4321 (Apr 7, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> a word  of caution--"splinters"



Now who said there would be any wood there:


----------



## dilloduck (Apr 7, 2005)

Avatar4321 said:
			
		

> Now who said there would be any wood there:


 ahhhhhhhhhhh  the old rubber woodshop !!! :teeth:


----------



## Avatar4321 (Apr 7, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> ahhhhhhhhhhh  the old rubber woodshop !!! :teeth:



yeah why not lol


----------



## NATO AIR (Apr 8, 2005)

Some observations being here in Japan (and about 3/4 of the military guys over here date Japanese girls)

- Japanese women are increasingly disgusted with their "role" in Japanese society.  They are still expected to work menial jobs to augment the family income, while their primary focus should be staying home, making babies, cooking and cleaning for the husband, and basically doing what he wants them to do.  Not a very joyful experience to some women, who are then typically viewed (and treated) as social outcasts if they become career women or even women who demand a near equal stake in the marriage/relationship.  Its not just sexless marriages that are a concern for Japanese leaders, it is also the lowering rate of marriage, as some women increasingly say "screw it" and don't get married.

- Contrast their experiences with American/European/non-NE Asian guys, who are much more open to them having a job and career, or at least having free choice, (and this is a reach but I'll defend it... much more open sexually and more in line with pleasing the woman and not just getting theirs and theirs only)

- It is more of a financial/social disaster because Japan promises generous retirement benefits to its retirees.  If there are more retirees than workers in the future as this data suggests is possible, then Japan's economy and society will suffer greatly a most serious strain.

-


----------



## Joz (Apr 8, 2005)

Thanks for the info, NATO.


----------

