# Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims



## Muslim75 (Mar 14, 2015)

Hello,

I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended, while Muhammad took over as the 124 000th prophet, the last of all prophets, who closes the cycle of prophethood. Servanhood of God Almighty, today, and since the 7th century is only through Muhammad's Islam, through true Islam. Jerusalem now belongs to Muhammad, no more to Jesus, no more to Moses, no more to Abraham. This is what pleases God Almighty.

As such, what Americans, Israelis, Europeans, Christianity and Judaism are doing is pure wickedness, pure evil.

Nevertheless, ever since the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century under Umar (may God be well pleased with him), Islam has never been denied Jerusalem or Palestine, and it never will, to the end end of times.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Mar 14, 2015)

Mohammad was a murderous warlord who had sex with children.  He cobbled together elements of other religions in such a way as to create a political manifesto that implored his equally violent followers to perform his bidding.

He was not a prophet and was merely a conniving egomaniac looking for a way to bind his followers to him by creating a bunch of Mumbo Jumbo that placed himself as the spokesperson for God.

If there is a God, and God were to have selected a spokesperson, it certainly wouldn't be a cold-blooded murderer who screwed children.


----------



## SassyIrishLass (Mar 14, 2015)

Better study up there Mo, in 1099 the Crusaders laid siege to Jerusalem and took it.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Mar 14, 2015)

SassyIrishLass said:


> Better study up there Mo, in 1099 the Crusaders laid siege to Jerusalem and took it.




But Muslims are like that bullying toddler who thinks any toy he's ever touched becomes his.

 Anything a Muslim ever stole becomes theirs forever.


----------



## Freewill (Mar 14, 2015)

Since Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) never really existed then I guess he can be whatever anyone wants him to be.


----------



## Sunni Man (Mar 14, 2015)

The non-muslim and secular historical evidence for the existence of Prophet Muhammad is overwhelming.     .....


----------



## SassyIrishLass (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The non-muslim and secular historical evidence for the existence of Prophet Muhammad is overwhelming.     .....



A middle age flim flam man


----------



## Sunni Man (Mar 14, 2015)

The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow.   ....


----------



## SassyIrishLass (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow.   ....



Like raping little girls? No thanks


----------



## pbel (Mar 14, 2015)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Mohammad was a murderous warlord who had sex with children.  He cobbled together elements of other religions in such a way as to create a political manifesto that implored his equally violent followers to perform his bidding.
> 
> He was not a prophet and was merely a conniving egomaniac looking for a way to bind his followers to him by creating a bunch of Mumbo Jumbo that placed himself as the spokesperson for God.
> 
> If there is a God, and God were to have selected a spokesperson, it certainly wouldn't be a cold-blooded murderer who screwed children.


Better read the Torah and Talmud...There are similar references in the ME religions...


----------



## docmauser1 (Mar 14, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello, I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey. Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended, while Muhammad took over as the 124 000th prophet, the last of all prophets, who closes the cycle of prophethood. Servanhood of God Almighty, today, and since the 7th century is only through Muhammad's Islam, through true Islam. Jerusalem now belongs to Muhammad, no more to Jesus, no more to Moses, no more to Abraham. This is what pleases God Almighty. As such, what Americans, Israelis, Europeans, Christianity and Judaism are doing is pure wickedness, pure evil. Nevertheless, ever since the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century under Umar (may God be well pleased with him), Islam has never been denied Jerusalem or Palestine, and it never will, to the end end of times.


Drivel.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The non-muslim and secular historical evidence for the existence of Prophet Muhammad is overwhelming.     .....





 As is the evidence of his mental illness and double standards, along with his barbarity, murderous, rapacious thieving ways.  So what is your point ?


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 14, 2015)

pbel said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad was a murderous warlord who had sex with children.  He cobbled together elements of other religions in such a way as to create a political manifesto that implored his equally violent followers to perform his bidding.
> ...






 About 3,000 years before Mohamed, and had been virtually eliminated by the time islam was invented. Did you know Mohamed altered the laws of his people to allow him to take his sons wife as his own and then to marry a child of his brother.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow.   ....




yes, there certainly is.

That is why we know he murdered poets who mocked him, and had sex with little girls. 

 What is missing is why anybody in their right mind would think that murder and child molestation were the attributes of a man worth following, much less one who was any sort of messenger of God. .


----------



## Sunni Man (Mar 14, 2015)

Approximately 25% of the world's population love and adore Prophet Muhammad.

He is a beacon of light for mankind to follow.   ....


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> Approximately 25% of the world's population love and adore Prophet Muhammad.
> 
> He is a beacon of light for mankind to follow.   ....






 Which probes the point that islam is a cult based around rape, theft, murser and violence so has no place in a civilised world. It means that 25% of the worlds population see no harm in having sex with a 6 year old child, support rape, defend murder and accept theft as normal


----------



## Sunni Man (Mar 14, 2015)

As more and more people around the world see the benefits of accepting Islam and following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad.

The % of muslims will increase and the entire earth will someday will be ruled by Islam.   ......


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 14, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



a dream that never mentions Jerusalem, and there was no mosque in the area till after his death and that was built at the far corner of the mount.

Actually the third most holy sites was in Cyprus not Jerusalem for a long time.

Why do people not know history or even their own religion?


----------



## Challenger (Mar 14, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



Well....that's as good a justification for owning territory as, "God gave us the land", it says so in this book of ours.


----------



## Sunni Man (Mar 14, 2015)

Muslims do not trust the western version of history.   .....


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> Muslims do not trust the western version of history.   .....



Too many muslims don't know their own history either.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> As more and more people around the world see the benefits of accepting Islam and following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad.
> 
> The % of muslims will increase and the entire earth will someday will be ruled by Islam.   ......





 Very doubtfull as the majority left have superior weaponry and training compared to the muslims. And many nations are now evicting muslims as undesirables because of their religious teachings. In fact islam is on a downward spiral to self destruction.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> Muslims do not trust the western version of history.   .....






 You mean the truth that shows islam for what it is, and why more and more people are demanding muslims be evicted from the west.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 14, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



Not according to your own Koran. The Koran clearly gives Israel to the Jews.  Doesn't mention a word about Falastine.

Jerusalem was JEWISH majority in 1896. Arabs are recent 20th century invaders.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> Approximately 25% of the world's population love and adore Prophet Muhammad.
> 
> He is a beacon of light for mankind to follow.   ....



Well we can see what his followers are doing today, Mr. ISIS lover.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 14, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> As more and more people around the world see the benefits of accepting Islam and following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad.
> 
> The % of muslims will increase and the entire earth will someday will be ruled by Islam.   ......



You should try being a comedian.


----------



## Lipush (Mar 14, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



Of course. Mohamma's flying horse has much better connection to the Holy land than the Jews.

Stick to Islam and leave our holy city alone


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 15, 2015)

Lipush said:


> Muslim75 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...






 Is that how it travelled in time as well 35 years into the future to when Omar had built the mosque that did not exist when mohamed made his journey.   But it is always the same with you muslims when someone has something you don't, it is then yours and you find parts of the Koran that justify your false claims.


----------



## Daniyel (Mar 15, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...


So religion determine the ownership of Israel? Lets have a debate.


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Mar 15, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



Prophecy ended with Malachi about 2400 years ago.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 15, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Muslim75 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Even according the quran, god gave the land to the tribes of Israel.
Mohamed visits some "distant place" on a flying horse in a dream........

God and quran trumps flying dream.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 15, 2015)

Even Mohammed gave Jerusalem to the jews and christians by changing the qibla direction to mecca


----------



## Roudy (Mar 15, 2015)

there needs to be more Muslim leaders like this guy:

*Jordan's ‘Zionist Sheikh’ Cites Quranic Sources for Islam-Jewish Relations*

A Jordanian Quranic scholar, and former postal worker, cited the Quranic sources that affirm Islam and Judaism should have friendly relations and that ‘Palestine’ should be for Jews, according to an interview published by Israel’s Mida magazine.

Sheikh Ahmad al-Adwan, the ‘Zionist Sheikh,’ said, “God may he be praised and blessed rewarded me with knowledge of His holy book and chose me to renew the knowledge of God and religion among the Islamic Ummah, and interpret that which needs interpreting in its verses, which most Islamic scholars misinterpret.”

“Among these are the verses which deal with the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and their rights in particular,” he said in the interview. “There are a hundred holy verses in the Koran which contemporary scholars did not properly interpret… These verses prove and express God’s will and his intentions: the will and desire for peace and harmony and His instructions for people to ensure them.”

“The Jews are our cousins and therefore we must pray for them and visit them, live alongside them, grant them respect and cooperate with them at the highest levels of esteem and appreciation,” he said. “This, because we are not more God-fearing, smarter, or better than the Prophet Muhammad may he rest in peace, who lived alongside them and behaved honorably, mercifully and amicably with them. Let us state that it was permitted for Muslims to marry them.”

When asked if his openness towards the People of Israel leads him to recognize Jewish sovereignty of their historic land, he said yes.

“Indeed, I recognize their sovereignty over their land. I believe in the Holy Koran, and this fact is stated many times in the book. For instance ‘O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you,’ [Koran 5:21], ‘We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things.’ [Koran 26:59] and additional verses in the Holy Book.”

“And there are additional reasons: this people (Israel) is peaceful and peace-loving, is not hostile or aggressive; [they are] a people that defends itself only when necessary, while trying to minimally harm its enemies,” he said. “In addition, I recognize the fact that God may He be praised gave preference to these people over humans and demons until the end of days. God does not give preference for nothing but grants all that which they deserve. God may He be praised never turned to any [other] people by name and grant them this honor, aside from the People of Israel, who are named for their ancestor Israel (Jacob), may he rest in peace, as it says in the Koran ‘O Children of Israel.’ In contrast, in approaching others it is said ‘O Believers’ or ‘O people,’ which is a more general greeting.”

He also answered the magazine’s question on how to end anti-Semitism in the Muslim world:

“In my opinion the way to end anti-Semitism is to concentrate efforts and call for peace, spreading knowledge and forthrightly educate people of the values of justice and truth in accordance with what appears in the books of God – the Torah, Tehillim, the Ingil [the Gospel] and the Koran, which admired the Israelites, clarified their rights, gave preference to them and bequeathed to them the Holy Land and their direction of prayer – to Jerusalem. The books testify that this is a peace-loving and peace-calling nation, and it is the first people for whom the Creator designated a role in order to serve as its messenger on this earth until the Day of Resurrection.”

“In the Koran, it is written ‘Those who have faith and do righteous deeds, they are the best of creatures.’ [Koran 98:7]. The intent in the word best is ‘the best among people,’ but regarding the Umma of the Koran – that is the Arabs and those who preach Islam – they have no recourse but to return to the straight and true voice as appears in the Koran that many of its scholars interpreted in a mistaken and deviant manner. They distorted the true will of God may He be praised, as it is expressed in the verses, in a false and fallacious manner to say that murder of Jews is part of the commandment of Jihad for Allah and that this land is not the Land of [the People of] Israel.”

“They continue to hold this villainous interpretation towards others, and there will be no true peace but with the return of the Ummah of the Koran to the book of the Koran, as God bequeathed to his adherents. My religious education allowed me to strengthen what I say, and I have merited much honor in succeeding in interpreting verses which scholars did not properly interpret. These are verses which spell out the obligations and rights of people and that which is required so that peoples not be hostile to one another.”

He was also asked if Palestinian-Arabs have rights to the land of Israel as well.

“Allah may He be praised wrote in the Torah that this is the land of the sons of Israel, he bequeathed the Holy Land to the sons of Israel and called the land by this name (the Land of Israel) and so it is stated by the Holy Koran: ‘O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.’ [Koran 5:21]. This holy verse is a ‘Kushan’ (deed) which confirms that this land is granted to the Jews. It is also said ‘We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things.’ [Koran 26:59], and in the following verse, ‘And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell securely in the land (of promise)” [Koran 17:104] and there are many additional holy verses which prove and confirm this.”

“So in an answer to your question, how can they (the Palestinians) have the right to establish a State on the Jewish Land of Israel, which Allah granted and bequeathed to the Jews? More than that, even if all the inhabitants of the land forgot their right, or went crazy and collaborated with those who call themselves ‘Palestinians’ to establish a state for the latter, they won’t succeed, and Allah will not allow this until the Day of Judgment, this because Allah Himself willed and specifically wrote in His book that this land will be the land of the People of Israel under Israeli sovereignty so that no-one would later dispute it.”

At the start of the interview, al-Adwan said he was born in 1952 and raised in Amman, Jordan, where he graduated high school and went on to learn Islamic Sharia studies at the College for Islamic studies, also in Amman. He resigned from the post office in 1997, and has since dedicated himself “to the book of God may He be praised (the Koran), and I expanded my knowledge of the Islamic religion and the life of the Islamic Ummah.”

*Jordan’s ‘Zionist Sheikh’ Cites Quranic Sources for Islam-Jewish Relations*


----------



## featherlite (Mar 15, 2015)

El wrongo, lol as usual.

Muslim 75, I don't think you even believe the wacko stuff you post.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 15, 2015)

featherlite said:


> El wrongo, lol as usual.
> 
> Muslim 75, I don't think you even believe the wacko stuff you post.



they parrot with out real knowledge or understanding


----------



## teddyearp (Mar 15, 2015)

What a waste of time this thread by Muslim75.  He spams the board with his worship of Mohammed (may his soul burn in hell). Usually in the religion section but now he has spilled his lies here as well.

Tell me Muslim75, besides all the other lies that you have come to believe about your false prophet, Mohammed (may he burn in hell) why did the the Moslims close the golden gate?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 16, 2015)

teddyearp said:


> What a waste of time this thread by Muslim75.  He spams the board with his worship of Mohammed (may his soul burn in hell). Usually in the religion section but now he has spilled his lies here as well.
> 
> Tell me Muslim75, besides all the other lies that you have come to believe about your false prophet, Mohammed (may he burn in hell) why did the the Moslims close the golden gate?



Why do they all sound somewhat insane?  The guy has a screen name of "Muslim75" and always starts his posts with: "I SPEAK AS A MUSLIM!" Ha ha ha.


----------



## eots (Mar 16, 2015)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Mohammad was a murderous warlord who had sex with children.  He cobbled together elements of other religions in such a way as to create a political manifesto that implored his equally violent followers to perform his bidding.
> 
> He was not a prophet and was merely a conniving egomaniac looking for a way to bind his followers to him by creating a bunch of Mumbo Jumbo that placed himself as the spokesperson for God.
> 
> If there is a God, and God were to have selected a spokesperson, it certainly wouldn't be a cold-blooded murderer who screwed children.


irrelevant...its 2015...deal with it


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 16, 2015)

Roudy said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > What a waste of time this thread by Muslim75.  He spams the board with his worship of Mohammed (may his soul burn in hell). Usually in the religion section but now he has spilled his lies here as well.
> ...



We laugh at clowns. Based on what we see, we don't jump to the assumption they are MENSA members.
We all know M75 is no Sidis


----------



## Roudy (Mar 16, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...



I think he's probably a young guy who has been brainwashed and lied to about his religion, as is the case with most radicals.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 16, 2015)

eots said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad was a murderous warlord who had sex with children.  He cobbled together elements of other religions in such a way as to create a political manifesto that implored his equally violent followers to perform his bidding.
> ...







 2.5 billion souls on Planet Earth believe in the false prophet who murdered raped and thieved his way to glory, even in 2015. So no it is not irrelevant and you need to deal with it or it could be you facing the muslim hordes next


----------



## Roudy (Mar 16, 2015)

1.2 billion.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 16, 2015)

Roudy said:


> 1.2 billion.





 Count in the non arab muslims and converts and the figure is 2.5 billion


----------



## fanger (Mar 16, 2015)

As of 2010, over 1.6 billion or about 23.4% of the world population are Muslims.
Muslim world - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 16, 2015)

fanger said:


> As of 2010, over 1.6 billion or about 23.4% of the world population are Muslims.
> Muslim world - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia





 Depends on which figures you believe. For 12 years the muslim population of the UK stayed static as 1.5 million, then one years increased to 2.1 million. The difference was the government in charge doing the counting


----------



## Osomir (Mar 16, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended,



Only according to hadith with weak silsila chains; once again, you're getting the basics wrong while pretending to be a religious scholar. Islam deserves better than that.


----------



## rhodescholar (Mar 16, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. .....



I don't know what the fuck you are, but intelligent or credible you are not.  As long as there are stupid pieces of shit like you who clam that "X land is muslim", as in the lunatic notion of dar al islam, there will be endless war in the mideast.  The death cult of islam leads one down a path of insanity, hatred, and psychosis, and as such should be eradicated from the face of the earth.


----------



## rhodescholar (Mar 16, 2015)

Roudy said:


> there needs to be more Muslim leaders like this guy:
> 
> *Jordan's ‘Zionist Sheikh’ Cites Quranic Sources for Islam-Jewish Relations*
> 
> A Jordanian Quranic scholar, and former postal worker, cited the Quranic sources that affirm Islam and Judaism should have friendly relations and that ‘Palestine’ should be for Jews, according to an interview published by Israel’s Mida magazine....



#1- does that guy really exist?  He sounds way, way too smart to be a muslim

#2-if such a man existed, is he still alive, because knowing how muslims are - he probably won't be for long.


----------



## teddyearp (Mar 16, 2015)

I repeat my question to Muslim75:



teddyearp said:


> Tell me Muslim75, besides all the other lies that you have come to believe about your false prophet, Mohammed (may he burn in hell) why did the the Moslims close the golden gate?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

rhodescholar said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > there needs to be more Muslim leaders like this guy:
> ...



He does exist and he's in Jordan. You're right, in many Muslim countries he'd already be dead.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

fanger said:


> As of 2010, over 1.6 billion or about 23.4% of the world population are Muslims.
> Muslim world - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


One too many crazy, radical, barbaric assholes.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Muslim75 said:
> 
> 
> > Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended,
> ...



Actually Muslim75 would be considered a moderate Muslim.  The ones who are getting the basics right are ISIS and Al Queda.


----------



## docmauser1 (Mar 17, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> Approximately 25% of the world's population love and adore Prophet Muhammad.


Losers.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

..............and on the mount

Temple Mount Preacher Urges ISIS to 'Trample' US, Destroy Israel ‪#‎Genieo‬ Preacher Urges ISIS to Trample US Destroy Israel - Middle East - News - Arutz Sheva


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Actually Muslim75 would be considered a moderate Muslim.  The ones who are getting the basics right are ISIS and Al Queda.



Says someone who doesn't even know what the basics are


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Muslim75 would be considered a moderate Muslim.  The ones who are getting the basics right are ISIS and Al Queda.
> ...



Sorry I only lived and grew up in a Muslim country.  ISIS and Al Queda are practicing true Sunni Islam.  Iran's Mullah's are practicing true Shia Islam. In fact that's exactly what they are both saying.  I don't understsnd what all the confusion is all about. 

When Ayatollah Khomeini rose to power in 1979, he specifically said that he's there to establish and export pure Islam.  ISIS's leader, who is a devout cleric makes the same claims, they are establishing AN ISLAMIC STATE.  What's misunderstanding here?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Sorry I only lived and grew up in a Muslim country.



I've heard you say this many times, and yet you can't 1.) name the country and 2.) you continuously get very basic things incorrect, such as in the thread where we discussed Yemen and you thought that the Sahih Bukhari was part of the Quran. No one with even a passing knowledge of the basics of Islam would make that mistake. No one. So even if you did spend some time in a Muslim country you obviously never studied the religion at all. 



> ISIS and Al Queda are practicing true Sunni Islam.



That's interesting since they consider each other rather heretical. It doesn't make sense to say that they are BOTH practicing true Sunni Islam when the way that they practice it is so different from each other and indeed opposed to each other. 



> Iran's Mullah's are practicing true Shia Islam. In fact that's exactly what they are both saying.  I don't understsnd what all the confusion is all about.



Iran's council is by far one of the weakest Shia theological institutions in the world. Shia centers of theology tend to surround Qom and Najaf. Historically speaking and theologically speaking, Iran's political shia model goes against classical Shia Islam and is a relatively new expression on the faith. 



> When Ayatollah Khomeini rose to power in 1979, he specifically said that he's there to establish and export pure Islam.  ISIS's leader, who is a devout cleric makes the same claims, they are establishing AN ISLAMIC STATE.  What's misunderstanding here?



And Joseph Kony insists that he is establishing a Christian state based on the ten commandments as he has his children soldiers rape their families. These people saying such things doesn't mean that they are legit. You seem to rather be succumbing to the propaganda of these radical groups.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

you 


Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry I only lived and grew up in a Muslim country.
> ...



Have no right to personal information.  You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal.  You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Have no right to personal information.  You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal.  You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.
> 
> It is none of your d$%* business!



I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.


----------



## toastman (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Have no right to personal information.  You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal.  You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.
> ...


You criticized Roudy for not telling you where he grew up. Why is that important to you? Are you an internet stalker ?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

toastman said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



I criticized him for it simply because he keeps attempting to utilize it as an appeal to authority. Notice how I have never asked any of you for such information. If he told me he drew his experience from books I would likewise ask him what the titles of the books were. It's the same thing. If he wants to use it as an appeal to authority then it shouldn't be surprising for someone to inquire about more details concerning said authority; there is after all a huge difference between growing up in Indonesia or Albania, or Senegal, or Saudi Arabia. Saying he "grew up in a Muslim country" doesn't really tell me anything useful as far as his experience goes, especially in the face of his historically demonstrated weakness in the area of religious and historical basics within Islam.

I also find you guys trying to rush to his defense somewhat amusing given his proclivity for and widespread use of personal attacks on other posters.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry I only lived and grew up in a Muslim country.
> ...



ISIS actually evolved out of Al Queda, and they aren't really doing anything different from each other.  ISIS is a younger group that has learned to use modern technology to its advantage. Most crucially, ISIS is in total control of large swaths of territory and has a huge source of funding from the territory it holds.  Of course Al Queda and ISIS are competitors, but it's possible that one day Al Queda may merge with ISIS. 

ISIS is led by a devout Muslim cleric and thousands of Muslims are flocking to its message because they believe ISIS represents true Islam, and the desire to live a purely ISLAMIC life.

Ayatollah Khomeini has the status of prophet (imam) among Shia Muslims.  He was a man who studied and preached Shia Islam for decades of his life and was the Shia "pope" before he came to power.  Practicing Shia Muslims revered him as their "Saint". He was not an abomination or some off the wall cult leader.  His words were considered final and Devine,y inspired and as important as when the Pope renders an opinion. As with the current supreme leader of Iran.

You are a nobody and know nothing compared to these devout Muslims. There is a reason why they label themselves ISLAMIC STATE or ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.  They are practicing true Islam and many Musłims agree with them. Even those that disagree, still agree that that they are indeed practicing true islam, they just don't agree with them taking the koran so literally.  To seperate Islam out of these groups is insane, delusional, and ignorant.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Hah? Those that know me know that I rarely bring up or use my background in discussions.  But rest assured I am a decendant of people who lived for generations in the Middle East and from various countries.  Many in my family and community including my father, knew the Koran by heart (mandatory part of education even for non Muslim).

It's entertaining to see the level of ignorance on sites such as this.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> ISIS actually evolved out of Al Queda, and they aren't really doing anything different from each other.  ISIS is a younger group that has learned to use modern technology to its advantage. Most crucially, ISIS is in total control of large swaths of territory and has a huge source of funding from the territory it holds.  Of course Al Queda and ISIS are competitors, but it's possible that one day Al Queda may merge with ISIS.



This doesn't in any way suggest that they are theologically sophisticated. We also know that AQI (the founding entity of ISI and later ISIS) was threatened by bin Laden with excommunication due specifically due to its tactics and the US Army's intelligence center's subsequent analysis of the two groups showed large theological and methodological divisions between the two. I also find it interesting that you would hinge your basis on these two groups since Osama bin Laden had no formal scholarly religious education and specifically eschewed formal religious training in favor of his personalized style of Islamic branding.



> ISIS is led by a devout Muslim cleric and thousands of Muslims are flocking to its message because they believe ISIS represents true Islam, and the desire to live a purely ISLAMIC life.



Since you have said this over and over again and seem so confident in yourself, I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new formal discussion forum on the issue where you can finally support your stance in more detail instead of simply defending yourself with the use of personal attacks and thread abandonment.



> Ayatollah Khomeini has the status of prophet (imam) among Shia Muslims.



No he doesn't. There are only 12 imams within Jafari Islam and the Imam is only believed to return as the Mahdi in the last days. Khomeini didn't claim to be the Mahdi, nor iwas he believed to be. In terms of physical religious leaders, shias follow what are called Majaji or grand ayatollahs, of which there are over 60 in the world currently living and of which Khamenei is hardly the most popular in terms of religious followers. As far as Khomeini is concerned, Shias are not allowed theologically speaking to adopt the ideas of a Marja who is dead.



> He was a man who studied and preached Shia Islam for decades of his life and was the Shai "pope" before he came to power.



Likening anyone to the Shia "pope" is to not understand how Shiism works. Marja are theologically required to have differing views from one another in order to maintain diversity within the faith and in order to ensure theological discourse. The most popular modern Marja to exist was Khoei, and his successor today (Al Sistani) is much more popular theologically speaking than the Iranian government.

Once again, these are pretty basic concepts, and the fact that you don't seem to be aware of them is rather telling when it comes to the robustness of your own acclaimed religious knowledge.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> you
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> ...



Ha ha ha thanks Aris. You're a sweetheart and one of the fairest people I have known.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > you
> ...







 Would make a very good mod if she wanted to wear that mantle again. But after dealing with immature scots and self centred Greeks I very much doubt she would.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Once again we are in a scenario where you are patting yourself on the back for your "expertise" while at the same time you don't seem to be aware of what an Imam is within Shiism which is pretty much one of the most basic religious concepts within said community. How you can blatantly get something like that wrong and still feel highly confident in the accuracy of your knowledge is rather nonplussing.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > ISIS actually evolved out of Al Queda, and they aren't really doing anything different from each other.  ISIS is a younger group that has learned to use modern technology to its advantage. Most crucially, ISIS is in total control of large swaths of territory and has a huge source of funding from the territory it holds.  Of course Al Queda and ISIS are competitors, but it's possible that one day Al Queda may merge with ISIS.
> ...



You discount and distort reality.  Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made.  There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.   Shia Islam is very similar to Catholicism in this way, they create "saints" out of people. In Iran, if they catch you bashing Khomeini or "the imam" the punishment is very severe, and equivalent to bashing the prophet.  

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere. 

So again, claiming that these groups and their actions "have nothing to do with Islam". is delusional and insane.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



People change when they become mods. And their interactions and relationships change too. You're giving up a lot for nothing.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Yes I know what an Imam is, but you're the ignorant one who doesn't know in Iran he's called IMAM KHOMEINI.  Look it up.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.



> As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.



Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.


----------



## High_Gravity (Mar 17, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...


 
No they don't.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The fact that some of his followers within Iran call him that does not mean that he is considered by shias to be an actual Imam or the Mahdi. Your appeal to his authority and likening him to one of the 12 is still highly theologically inaccurate and not how Shiism works.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here.  You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran.  Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Ruhollah Khomeini - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Khomeini was noted by many for his mystique. Before the revolution he benefited from the widespread circulation of a Hadithattributed to the Imam Musa al-Kazim who is said to have prophesied shortly before his death in 799 that

'A man will come out from Qom and he will summon people to the right path. There will rally to him people resembling pieces of iron, not to be shaken by violent winds, unsparing and relying on God.'[214]

Khomeini was the first and only Iranian cleric to be addressed as "Imam", a title hitherto reserved in Iran for the twelve infallible leaders of the early Shi'a.[215] He was also associated with the _Mahdi_ or 12th Imam of Shia belief in a number of ways. One of his titles was _Na'eb-e Imam_ (Deputy to the Twelfth Imam). His enemies were often attacked as _taghut_ and _Mofsed-e-filarz_ (corrupters of the earth), religious terms used for enemies of the Twelfth Imam. Many of the officials of the overthrown Shah's government executed by Revolutionary Courts were convicted of "fighting against the Twelfth Imam". When a deputy in the majlis asked Khomeini directly if he was the 'promised Mahdi', Khomeini did not answer, "astutely" neither confirming nor denying the title.[216]




Khomeini and child
As the revolution gained momentum, even some non-supporters exhibited awe, called him "magnificently clear-minded, single-minded and unswerving."[217] His image was as "absolute, wise, and indispensable leader of the nation"[218]

The Imam, it was generally believed, had shown by his uncanny sweep to power, that he knew how to act in ways which others could not begin to understand. His timing was extraordinary, and his insight into the motivation of others, those around him as well as his enemies, could not be explained as ordinary knowledge. This emergent belief in Khomeini as a divinely guided figure was carefully fostered by the clerics who supported him and spoke up for him in front of the people.[219]


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood.  Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?


----------



## High_Gravity (Mar 17, 2015)

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



But he was not a formal Sunni scholar. He lacked the religious credentials for example to issue a formal fatwa (this didn't stop him from issuing his own brand of them, but still). Once again, this is basic stuff.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

High_Gravity said:


> Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.



Such religious scholars in Shiism are called Marjas / Grand Ayatollahs. Imams are historical figures whose line ended with the greater occultation when the last of them went into hiding as a child who is not expected to return until near the end times. We call Jafari Shias 12ers specifically because they venerate only 12 Imams.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

High_Gravity said:


> Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.


Like I said.  He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping that these people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.


----------



## High_Gravity (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.
> ...


 
What he did for the Shites was unprecedented but he took Iran from one of the best countries in the area to a third world shithole almost overnight.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.
> ...



He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

I also noticed that you balked at my challenge to a formal discussion in the new sub-forum. Let me know if you change your mind.


----------



## bripat9643 (Mar 17, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



You're a religious kook.  Muhammad was a mass murdering pedophile.  No civilized person accepts Islam as a serious religion.  It's a bloodthirsty cult.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

bripat9643 said:


> Muslim75 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Well that sounds unbiased.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






 Not with Aris as I was a member of a board she was a mod on, she was very tolerant and kept all sides in line. She preferred the parental type of moderation with quiet words and understanding.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > Muslim75 said:
> ...







 Unbiased or not it is the truth and can be found in the writings of the Koran and hadiths


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > bripat9643 said:
> ...



Care to back that up in a formal discussion in the new sub-forum?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...





Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...





Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



He didn't bring anything new, he brought traditional pure Islam, according to his own words, a leading Shia cleric.  If you think he's not qualified to know about it, I suggest you review his credentials.  

Ruhollah Khomeini - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

*Ruhollah Moosavi Khomeini* (Persian: روح‌الله خمینی‎, [ruːholˈlɑːhe χomeiˈniː] (

 listen), 24 September 1902 – 3 June 1989) was an Iranian religious leader, revolutionary, politician, and leader of the 1979 Iranian Revolution which saw the overthrow of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran. Following the revolution, Khomeini became the country's Supreme Leader, a position created in the constitution as the highest-ranking political and religious authority of the nation, which he held until his death.

Khomeini was a _faqih_ (an expert in Islamic law) and author of more than 40 books, but he is primarily known for his political activities. He spent more than 15 years in exile for his opposition to the last Shah. In his writings and preachings he expanded the theory of _velayat-e faqih_, the "guardianship of the jurisconsult (clerical authority)", to include theocratic political rule by Islamic jurists. This principle [11][12] was appended to the new Iranian constitution[13] after being put to a referendum.[14]

In 1979, Ayatollah Khomeini created the _Basij Mostazafan_, a voluntary mass movement of mainly young people. When the Iran–Iraq war started in 1980, Khomeini issued a fatwa and promise of paradise and these were incorporated into the Iranian military. During the Iran–Iraq war, Khomeini organized his "human wave" attacks - mass frontal assaults by thousands of young men, advancing up to certain death.[15][16]

He was named Man of the Year in 1979 by American news magazine _TIME_ for his international influence,[17] and has been described as the "virtual face of Islam in Western popular culture"[18] where he remains a controversial figure. He was known for his support of the hostage-takers during the Iran hostage crisis[19] and for calling the US Government the "Great Satan". Khomeini called the USSR the "Lesser Satan" and said that Iran should support neither.[20]

Khomeini held the title of Grand Ayatollah and is officially known as Imam Khomeini inside Iran and by his supporters internationally;[10] he is generally referred to as Ayatollah Khomeini by others.[21] Since the beginning of his rule, Khomeini attempted to establish good relations between Sunnis and Shias.[22]


----------



## High_Gravity (Mar 17, 2015)

You know whats sad? compared to modern Islamists he is considered a moderate now SMFH


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I disagree, and I once again if you are so confident about this then I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new sub-forum on this topic. Do you accept or are you going to dodge this one too?


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Have no right to personal information.  You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal.  You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.
> ...



don't ask about where he grew up or go digging into his past.  This for some is personal information.  When I left it took decades before I spoke about my past to anyone.  I still won't disclose information about my family, expect perhaps small hints or passing references.  Any more details could endanger my relatives.
It does not matter what country or where.  Either you accept or don't.  It is not your place to ask any more information about him or his past.  As big as the middle east is, it a relatively small world when it come to knowledge of families or where people come from.  It is far from being as disconnected as in the west.

His personal experience has been proven in his knowledge and understanding.  If you want to try to dispute something, leave his past and personal information out of it.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



If he is going to attempt to use personal information to claim authority then I have every right to ask about it or to dismiss said claim to authority. He is the one who brought it up not me. Once again, take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing?  Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Thanks but that was a headache and a half.  What was it for almost two years?  I prefer my freedom and use my time for other things.  The archiving alone took so much of the time.....and the people were just blind and mean just "because".


----------



## Daniyel (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


I fully agree with you Roudy, those hypocrites claiming to be Muslims and *ARE NOT* doing exactly what IS/Boko Haram/PIJ/Hamas/Hezbollah/Al Qaeda/MB/PLO *ARE DEFINITELY NOT MUSLIMS.
Like it or not but the origins of Islam which defines Muslims is based on a book called the Qur'an which has some pretty harsh things to say about hypocrites.*


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

High_Gravity said:


> You know whats sad? compared to modern Islamists he is considered a moderate now SMFH


Yup.  Compared to the savagery we see today, the Shia's seem moderate.  Yet many forget that the Islamic republic had armies of little children taken by force from their parents, with plastic "keys to heaven" necklaces, they would make them walk through minefields in order to clear the path for tanks, in the Iran / Iraq war.  In their prisons, the clerics and guards would rape female political prisoners before their execution because non virgins won't go to heaven in Islam.  So it's not that the Shia's are less savage, at that time we didn't have youtube, and people have forgotten.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



He used to be quite the playboy in Beirut, back in the day.

When he began making a name for himself it came as quite a surprise to realize who they were actually talking about.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, Christianity, or Judaism.  I just find it hilarious that you claim to know more about Islam than Ayatollah Khomeini, aka THE GRAND AYATOLLAH of Iran, or Baghdadi, the Sunni cleric ISIS leader.  You are basically engaging in deception and fraud.   These people are Muslims, they claim they are doing what they are doing in the name of Islam, they label themselves as ISLAMIC STATE, and other Muslims are flocking to them for exactly the same reason.  What's the confusion here to formally discuss?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



According to many, the 9-11 hijackers weren't Muslims because the night before they went to a strip joint.  LOL


----------



## High_Gravity (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > You know whats sad? compared to modern Islamists he is considered a moderate now SMFH
> ...


 
You are right, the human waves. I remember reading about that, Khomeini was willing to sacrifice so many of his own people I don't see how he was so revered, maybe thats just something I won't understand.


----------



## High_Gravity (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


 
and drank beer.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



No, it is personal information.  Not your business, not to be spread on the forum.  I've had experience where someone put the fragments of who I know, what I had don't and manage to realize who I was.  They made threats and are went to jail.  Any good forum moderator would warn people not to disclose personal information and never to ask for information about others or use information about others on the forum.

Where he grew up is not your business.  There are enough other details in his knowledge to prove he is no stranger off the street killing time.  Take it or leave it, but stop asking.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I'll take that as a no, which is what I thought  Once again, let me know if you change your mind; I'm always open to detailed and sourced discussion.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



1- They behave the same way with minor differences.  They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top. 

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad..  Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics with formal Islamic training.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



If it was THAT big of a deal then 

1.) He wouldn't reference it again and again and use it as a claim to authority
2.) the Forum wouldn't have a built in location setting based on country as part of the standard profile package. 

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

High_Gravity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



in the beginning, Khomieni executed anybody he could get his hands on, that had anything to do with the previous regime or said anything against the regime.  His regime has probably killed at least a few hundred thousand Iranians.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



And yet there are formal scholars across the Muslim world that support these Islamic terrorist organizations. You're just bringing up those that disagree.

Islamic Scholar Pledges Allegiance to ISIS Emir Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Live on Al-Jazeera TV



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Like I said, I'd be happy to have a formal debate with you about it given your level of confidence in the subject matter. Let me know when you are sure enough in your knowledge to partake.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I thought that is what we were doing here.  You're just upset that your propaganda has fallen flat.  

Like I said, claiming that these groups and their actions "have nothing to do with Islam" is a blatant lie, deceiving the ignorant.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



No, it isn't. You aren't willing to really hold such discussions because it forces you to address specific points and provide a base level of support for your arguments that you usually try to avoid through personal attacks, ignoring the material in question or through simply abandoning the Thread. These "risks" limit the amount of time one is willing to spend crafting an individual post / reply. I've run into this problem with you on multiple occasions before. Thus I have little incentive to spend 30 minutes writing a detailed post if you are simply going to respond with an insult and then ignore the bulk of its content. You wouldn't have that option in a more structured thread and thus would free others up to talk more about the specific issues. If you can't talk about these subjects without that safety blanket I understand, I just thought I'd give you the option of putting your proverbial money where your mouth is in order to gauge the strength of your conviction and how comfortable you really are with the material.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I've seen how a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous.  You can dismiss what he says or accept it.  You do not need to know any more to somehow defame him, endanger him or attack him.

He might give you details of what stores were on the street, what the building looked like and who was next door.  Details the average person would not have access to.  You do not have the right to ask for more.

Personal details are just that, personal.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Again,  you, a non Muslim, keep claiming to know more about Islam than all these devout Muslims, their leaders, and their followers, born and bred in religious Islamic families, like Bin Laden and Al Bagdady.   I am very secular, not a Muslim nor am I born and bred in a religious family.  Just someone who has experienced Islam on a personal level and seen it's effects.  And I'll take that over all the bullshit and double talk coming from you.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Some people know a bit of his past but it is not fodder for the forum.  Those people know what Roudy is talking about and can place it into context.  Sorry if you are not among those people but it is Roudy's to give in tiny grains at a time or not at all.
There are members who have know each other for decades and gone from forum to forum, egroup, news groups, usenet, private chat rooms, message boards and such.  If you are not among the trusted in someone's contact list, oh well too bad.  Maybe you have to be a friend to make a friend.
I have people I share jokes and snide comments with that I would not share on a open forum.  I have friends that have a sense of humor that not to my taste but that I consider friends for other reason.  I have friends that I don't agree with politically or on some moral issues.  We have friends for many reason.
Why should Roudy trust you to be a friend?  Why should he give you any more personal information to prove anything to you?  So you can throw it back in his face at some later time?

Stop whining.  Get over it.  Move on.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Just as a note of caution, this site may have Muslims who are sending viruses / malware / popups / extensions to possibly hack into your computer. I keep having to delete this extension that invites me to listen to the Koran. Ha ha ha. I located the program but the damn thing wouldn't allow me to uninstall it.  It was nasty. I did some research and discovered that I needed to get a program that "force uninstalled" it from my programs and all the registries it had lodged itself into.  I was better than having to go out and get a new laptop.  On the downside I've been wanting to have an excuse to get the new Apple laptop, heard a lot of great things about it.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



never a problem for me.
Mac lap top very fast almost never viruses or mal.  After more than a year my Sony was a little slow, through I keep it well maintained. Was given a win clean and it is almost as fast as my mac.
The downloads and restarts with windows can be annoying on occasion because I rarely shut down, I just put to sleep.  It is just a few seconds so I shouldn't complain.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



I wanted to have a non apple device just in case some attachments or programs aren't compatible. Apple is pretty much virus / malware free.  I'm glad I figured out how to remove that nasty extension / malware from my hard drive.  The moral is, be careful what you click on, it could be set up to get something bad on your device. At least scan the link before you click on it to make sure it's safe.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



That's what I thought.  let me know when you are ready to man up.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Scan everything before opening or clicking.  You can check out the safety of sites before entering.  Things you do want and download might have "extra" attachments that you need to read carefully and opt of those particular add ons.  Extensions that have errors or problems should be removed unless it is something you need and willing to set perimeters.  Close tool bars not needed and open only when you do want to use them, then close again......don't leave the house with an open window on the first floor.

I loved my laptop but I prefer to sit at a table with a screen MUCH larger and use a real mouse, or pen mouse, or drawing pad, or use touch screen.  Big screen computer can be used as a large tablet if I needed to show something to my mother or anyone else within internet range.

I still prefer the mac for photo editing, video, media.  For surfing the web and reading I like my window, BIG FONTS.  Either one could be plugged into the flat screen TV if I wanted to watch a movie or youtube I downloaded.

Don't like that mac and windows don't like interacting.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Go find someone else to play in your stupid sandbox.  You got your butt handed to you, I proved you wrong at every turn.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Correct, also, check your programs regularly to delete any programs that may have been sneaked in.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 17, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I'm sure you were always told.....read the fine print


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






 They are still the same and crazy has closed her board to them because of their looney left wing attitudes. Even pathwalker has thrown the towel in and given the ark to the chuckleheads.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...






And you are acting like a stalker hoping to dig some dirt on the people you are stalking to use as a weapon to silence their voices. Wont work as I will just report every perceived stalking, flaming and troll post


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






 Wasn't he also the author of a book on Islamic practises in reagrds to sex with animals and children as young as babies. The islamonazi's tried to discount it as the original was in 4 "books" while the translation was in 5


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...







 And we both know how dangerous those details can be in the wrong hands, two stalkers in particular are still posting my personal details on certain boards and seeing them removed asap. They also complain to board owners when they are banned from posting because of their illegal actions.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...






 If it is windows that is causing the problems then download LINUX which is free and let it be your O.S. Can be run from a cd and so does not need a hard drive, unless you want to store information. I run it from a memory card on the smallest computer and it loads in seconds and beats windows and mac to a pulp. Look up the Rasberry Pi and its functions to see how capable and strong it is.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






 You an always use an emulator like WINE that will run windows programmes in a virtual PC.

 I use an anti virus/anti malware/anti Trojan programme that does it automatically, can be a bind when it picks up virus signatures that are not viruses in the first place.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



lol. "I handed you your but, but I am not confident enough in my argument to have a formal discussion about it."


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



"The reason I got my butt kicked, is because this forum is not conducive to my bullshit.  Not fair!"


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It is conducive to the style in which I'd like to engage in discussion as per my pointing to the new sub-Forum. You're just too scared to go in there.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



He's written several books on Islam.  Yet Osomir thinks he knows more.  Perhaps he can invite an Islamic scholar to a formal suck off.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



So you need a special type of forum just so you don't get your butt kicked?  Does this forum give you mental diarrhea? 

What a whiny bitch you are.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I think that I am familiar enough with Islam to know that he doesn't represent the majority of Shia religious thought and to know that Shias are not supposed to theologically follow dead Marjas. You on the other hand didn't even know that the main shia theological centers were in Qom and Najaf and tried to instead assert that they rested with Iran's Supreme leader in Tehran. Which is a pretty basic and fundamental error to make.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Let me know if you ever grow a spine


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I think you are a nobody compared to the Grand Ayatollah and founder of the Iranian Islamic Shia revolution.  His picture is in every Iranian business  and govt. office. Iran is majority Shia nation and stronghold for Shia Islam.  So for you to say he means nothing to majority of Shias is just another display of your ignorance. He is also revered by Hezbollah, the Shia terrorist force Iran founded, and has "prophet" status. 

Where is your evidence that I didn't know Shia theological centers are in shithole Qom?  You're just making up outrageous shit now.

Funny.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



You're the one who can't have an intelligent discussion based on facts right here, not me.

What is it, like the 7th time I've proven you wrong in this thread?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You can't seem to distinguish here between political significance and theological significance. Once again, a pretty basic error.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



That's right, keep dismissing the most important Shia religious leader in the 20th century as insignifificant. 

Shia Revival

The Iranian revolution "awakened" Shia around the world, who outside of Iran were subordinate to Sunnis. Shia "became bolder in their demands of rights and representations", and in some instances Khomeini supported them. In Pakistan, he is reported to have told Pakistan military ruler Zia ul-Haq that he would do to al-Haq "what he had done to the Shah" if al-Haq mistreated Shia. When tens of thousands of Shia protested for exemption from Islamic taxes based on Sunni law, al-Haq conceded to their demands.

Shia Islamist groups that sprang up during the 1980s, often "receiving financial and political support from Tehran" include the Amal Movement of Musa al-Sadr and later the Hezbollah movement in Lebanon, Islamic Dawa Party in Iraq, Hizb-e Wahdatin Afghanistan, Tahrik-e Jafaria in Pakistan, al-Wifaq in Bahrain, and the Saudi Hezbollah and al-Haraka al-Islahiya al-Islamiya in Saudi Arabia. Shia were involved in the 1979-80 riots and demonstrations in oil-rich eastern Saudi Arabia, the 1981 Bahraini coup d'état attempt and the 1983 Kuwait bombings.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Waaaaa!  Not fair, I need a special forum!  This forum gives me BUTTHURT!


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



He isn't the most popular Shia religious leader of the 20th century. Once again that would be Khoei. Also Khoei's student al Sistani is far more popular theologically speaking that Khamenei is today. Once again, otherwise the theological capitals of Shia Islam would be in Tehran instead of in Qom and Najaf. 

Once again you seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between political influence and religious influence. Khomeini was pretty disliked by traditionalists within Shia Islam in terms of theology given his break with traditional Shia political quietism and due to his Sufi influences in his personal professions.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Waaaaa!  Not fair, I need a special forum!  This forum gives me BUTTHURT!



No, this forum simply gives you the ability to make posts like this instead of actually discussing the topic at hand and prevents you from having to support your arguments. Once you feel like you are capable of this I would be more than welcome to have a more detailed discussion with you in any of these topics. If you come out ahead in any of them against me in the structured discussion sub-forum then I would be perfectly willing to admit defeat and to never post about Islam in here again. But even with such a slanted reward system I know you won't take me up on the offer.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Who cares!  Sistani is irrelevant. Khomeini brought about the Shia revival. He was very popular when he arrived in Iran, after a decade of killing and torturing fellow Shias, he became just another Islamic madman. These scholars make up their own dogma and exceptions just like Mohammad did when he had 12 (or was it 8) wives when he told others not to have more than 4.  The hypocrisy and betrayal starts with the prophets.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Who cares? You make the statement that Khomeini was the Shia pope when Khoei was far more popular religiously speaking than he was and then try to assert that Tehran and Khamenei are the center of current Shiism when in reality that center is divided up among over 60 Marjas and centered more closely in Qom and Najaf and then claim victory even though you clearly got both facts wrong. And when it is pointed out to you your only response is "who cares?" It completely destroys your entire argument, so you should care.

Also stating that Al-Sistani is irrelevant is to completely be oblivious to how strong of an impact he has had in Iraq ideologically on Shias and to ignore the real centers of Shia theological discourse. Khomeini didn't bring about Shia revival, he brought about Shia politicalism and political revival. Shiism was theologically healthy long before Shia politicalism existed.

Once again, you should spend more time on the basics before you attempt to characterize millions of people under a single general label.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



After a time of being the target of attacks instead of dealing with the topics, one will think they were responsible.  It wasn't just me.  It is sad dealing with people consumed with such hate (like I have not been doing that most of my life).  It wears on the nerves, the body and the mind.  I appreciate the quotes and moral wisdoms I get and even the off colored humor.  It helps to find balance.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...





 It helps to have an unbiased ear to talk too and get an unbiased reply, I never did say thank you for that in those very long years. So THANK YOU for your help and understanding my friend


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Again who cares. You are obviously a Muslim trying to show off your knowledge of Islam, which has absolutely nothing to do with reality or history, or facts on the ground.   Until the arrival of KHOMEINI guys like Sistani were just respected scholars and basically nobodies.  Khomeini (may he burn in hell for enternity) made Islamic Shiism into a powerful expansionist terrorist ideology.  Which brought about the rise of radical Sunni groups like Al Queda and others as a counter balance.  He is revered and emulated by many hardliners and you will see picture like a mythical figure all over Shia based organizations, including terrorist ones like Hezbollah. So for you to dismiss who he was and his knowledge of Islam is ludicrous at best.

As long as these scholars and clerics are practicing true Islam, they are practicing true barbarism. Just like their prophet Muhammad who raided and looted caravans even during Ramdan, they make up contrary shit and justify it by "revelations".   That's what Khoeni did, an many radical clerics are doing now. Muslims that are peaceful are so in spite of Islam, not because of.   It goes back to their cultural and national heritage and history of tolerance and coexistence.

Lebanese Hezbollah shiite flag with picture of Khomieni and current Iranian supreme leader Khamenei on it.  Who do Ya think they get their thological Islamic  scholarly inspiration from?  ha ha ha.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



lol I was wondering when you were going to try to claim that I am a secret Muslim again. You literally JUST said that since I was not a Muslim then my opinion didn't matter a page or two back, but since you think I am a Muslim now then you must think that my opinion not only matters, but is more applicable than yours (being a non-Muslim yourself).

You don't seem very consistent. For the record, I'm not a Muslim, nor have I ever been, nor has anyone in my family. The fact that you need to justify your lack of knowledge of Islamic fundamentals by attempting to characterize me as some sort of subversive figure is pretty telling and makes you look insecure.



> which has absolutely nothing to do with reality or history, or facts on the ground.



I can source, through the use of western scholarly and military intelligence works everything related to Islam that I have stated in this thread, which is why I am more than happy to have a formal sourced discussion with you on any of these issues at your leisure. I'd also be happy to provide specific sources here upon request for specific statements as well.



> Until the arrival of KHOMEINI guys like Sistani were just respected scholars and basically nobodies.  Khomeini (may he burn in hell for enternity) made Islamic Shiism into a powerful expansionist terrorist ideology.  Which brought about the rise of radical Sunni groups like Al Queda and others as a counter balance.  He is revered and emulated by many hardliners and you will see picture like a mythical figure all over Shia based organizations, including terrorist ones like Hezbollah. So for you to dismiss who he was and his knowledge of Islam is ludicrous at best.



I haven't dismissed him as an important modern Islamist figure at all, I have merely disagreed with your specific characterization of him and your overemphasis of his theological reach and purity in the light of traditional Shia belief structures.

I'm not sure how you can be so sure of yourself when it must be obvious to you how little you know in the grand scheme of things. You've already admitted that you are no expert and less than a year ago you couldn't even tell the difference between a Quranic sura and a hadith.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Waaaaa!  Not fair, I need a special forum!  This forum gives me BUTTHURT!
> ...



Why would I need to get into a detailed discussion with a complete moron who can't handle being proven wrong on a regular forum?  What would a private area do, do you perform BJ's and lap dances there?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It isn't private. It is structured, aka we would both have to respond to each others points directly and would have to cite sources for the things we said. Instead of engaging in deflection by, you know, engaging in juvenile sexual humor, simply insisting that I am dumb, or declaring that I must be a secret Muslim. but as I said I would be more than happy to provide sources for anything Islam related that I have stated in this thread upon request.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Yes I am sure that nobody is as important as Khomeni, his legacy, and his ideology in shiite Islam today. The current supreme leader in Iran is just maintaning Khomeinis ideology and interpretation of Islam, and continuing the imperialistic terroristic ambitions that Khomeini had.  You don't dismiss him as a important figure but you dismiss him as a religious figure and his theological reach. However, all the important Shia Islamist movements today are headquartered out of Iran and based on Khomeinis ideology and game plan of world conquest.  Yet Osomir says no go. Ha ha ha you are hilarious.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You also don't seem to be aware of the fact here that most Shias are not Islamists. Once again: basics.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Provide what?  You said things like  "Khomeni can't be an Imam because shiite Islam forbids it."  And I showed you that you were wrong, that he is revered and considered an Imam, in fact that is his official label, by an entire nation of 70 million Iranians and their terrorist subsidiaries across the region.  Then you questioned Khomeni as a theologian and why he blended Islam with politics.  Again, so? That doesn't make him less of a scholar or theologian or revered any less. Just like most religions and religious leaders ITS UP FOR INTERPRETATION.  And just like their prophet Mohammad kept getting these "revelations" to justify his perversions and savagery. 

Let us also not forget that the topic of this thread is that one ignorant  Muslim75 claimed that "I speak as a Muslim! (Ha ha) Jerusalem belongs to Islam and Musłims! " to which I responded that he's a typical Muslim and the product of what Islam does to a human brain.  For some reason that offended you. 

Now you're discussing in depth Islamic theology. Who the fuck cares?!  

We are seeing the fruits of Islamic theology and the influence of its scholars in full swing.  All death, oppression, chavanism, mayhem, terrorism, intolerance, and JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD.  

Did you see what happened in Tunisia today?  

Oh but what am I saying...it had nothing with Islam.  Let's go to our resident USMB bullshit Islamic scholar and theologian Osomir, who is by no way a Muslim, <ha ha> and he will tell you.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Ya don't say!  I bet you're about to say that some Shias are in fact SECULAR non practicing Muslims.  Wow, you're just full of factoids today!


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



No, the reality of Shiism is that it has traditionally be a politically quietest movement; which made Khomeini's brand of political Shiism a relatively new theological concept and practice and limited his theological appeal outside of Iran and among traditionalists (That and his Spanish Sufi leanings). Once again: basics.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I was doing it for everyone, for clarity and balance.

...but your welcome


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


Again, yeah so?  It doesn't make him any less of a scholar or theologian as you keep insisting.  In fact he is more revered and respected because Shias have been oppressed by majority Sunnis. He gave them a voice, albeit a violent one, and based it on faith. 

And the entire Shia movement and uprisings are orchestrated and directed by Iran, which are the fruits of Khomenis ideology.   There aren't that many shiite communities, Iran has penetrated if not colonized and conquered all of them. The biggest shiite populations are Iran and Iraq, which are all under the control and ideology of Khomeinism.  

You seem lonely.   Isn't there a Private room where you could snuggle up with an Islamic scholar and charge him like $40 by the dance?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You say that they are under the control of "Khomeinism" but don't seem to be aware of the fact that usuli forbids Shias from emulating dead Marjas, and you continue to be unable to distinguish between the political and the theological, the Imam title is a political one, it is not a theological one akin to the 12 Imams of Jafari jurisprudence. Those who actually worship him, not only do so in violation of the basic beliefs of 12er Shiism, but are a small minority of Shias globally. You also keep ignoring that the center for Shia religious ideology is currently not Tehran, but Qom and Najaf. Once again: basics.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



politically quiet?  

They might be the minority but they are not quiet and never have been.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> politically quiet?
> 
> They might be the minority but they are not quiet and never have been.



Yes. Politically quiet, that is to say they historically have not merged theology within areas of state rule (something which is theologically restricted to the Mahdi) rather they bade their time for the coming of their future political leader (the 12th Imam). The closest they really came before Iran was the Safavids and even there theologically they were simply placeholders of an imperfect state even under their own propaganda.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



You keep assuming that I don't know that Qom, Najaf, and Karbala mean to Shiites.  I have seen Shiites beating the crap out of themselves to a bloody pulp in their self flaggelation ceremonies.   And, you keep trying to separate the political from the ideological, which only an idiot would do, because we all know that Islam is both, especially today.  

You are trying to unsucessfully force the limited knowledge you have and apply it to what is happening in Islam today on the ground, which is, the shiite clerics in Iran are calling all the shots, some from Qom, and some from Tehran through the tentacles of the Islamic republic. And their ideology is derived from the teachings and ideology of khomeini.   That is why each of the big wigs in the islamic shiite movement, like Nasrallah, will have a picture of Khomeini and / or Khamenei in his office.  They are the main spiritual and leaders, the equivalent of a Catholic having the picture of the pope or a Jew having a picture of some head rabbi.  They look to them for spiritual guidance and it is a sense of pride for them. 

Now, you want to get into the ticky tack whether the Shiites can call some else an Imam, who gives a fuck!  Khomenie's official title is imam in the entire nation of Iran and Iran's puppets in the region, it is both spiritual and political, and if they catch you insulting him or his memory, you die or get tortured!  You really need to get over this so called theological BS, which has no relevance to real life except for maybe in a classroom.  Like I said, in all religions, when a leader wants to violate its tenements they just reinterpret it a different way, BS, or simply claim to have some kind of divine revelation to justify their hypocrisy and savagery. 

And again, since you are such an Islamic scholar, and "honest" about the faith, I didn't see you correct Muskim75, in that mohammad himself told his followers in two ways that Israel and jerusalem are for Jews. One, he told them that facing Jerusalem was for jews, Muslims should face Mecca, and two, he confirmed the story of exodus and that the promised land  belongs to Jews until the hereafter. 

Now why is it that you didn't correct Muslim 75 a so called devout Muslim? 

Isn't there something about it being haram for a Muslim to side with a non Muslim.  Never mind. Ya Ali!


----------



## toastman (Mar 18, 2015)

What's with your avatar ?


Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > politically quiet?
> ...


What's with your avatar?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

toastman said:


> What's with your avatar ?
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> ...



It is the Seal of Solomon from the Jewish medieval mythos, a ring used by King Solomon to bind demons to his will and build the first temple of Solomon. I like Jewish and Christian mythology, though I am not well versed in Judaic theology so my ventures into the apocrypha and related texts have largely had a Christian focus. It was supposedly given to him by the archangel Michael and is referenced in various writings from the Testament of Solomon to the two books on the Key of Solomon. They are later constructed texts but fun and give good incites into the evolution of European faith structures along with the other texts that never really made it into (or lasted) within the evolution of Christian scripture.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



lol. As I said, I have western and military intelligence sources for every statement that I have made in this thread. You've even been arguing against some direct quotes from the people that you are trying to speak for. I'll post a list of sources for you on Friday for the things that I have posted thus far. As a side note, saying that you have seen Shias commemorating Ashura and the martyrdom of Hussein isn't very impressive. That isn't a very uncommon sight. Second side note, I have disagreed a lot with Muslim75. In fact, my first post in this entire thread was directed at him, and you can check his threads in the religious forum. I believe I told him that he was an embarrassment to his brothers. Is that critical of him enough for you?


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > What's with your avatar ?
> ...


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

you don't know the difference between david and solomon?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> you don't know the difference between david and solomon?



Seal of Solomon - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Nice try though.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > you don't know the difference between david and solomon?
> ...



citation needed

or did you miss that.  Some put it in with nothing to back up the claim.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



There are many variations of it. It was a medieval tradition and is more of a concept from the Testament of Solomon (which is about Solomon not David) and his use of the ring / seal to build the first temple. It isn't meant to be academic, it is meant to be an avatar on a message board. Once again take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

House of david, earth air fire water, moon jupiter neptune pluto saturn mars, male female, that is all the star means.
For demons or any magic controlled by solomon would need to be more extensive.
You are aware the six point star is also widely used in Islamic art?  Magic and witchcraft are forbidden in Islam.  The star hold no magic.
Perhaps you should try a book on theurgy or ancient magic instead of relying on Wiki for your only source of information.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...





Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Testament of Solomon is the 5th C AD work.  This you through was really by or about the real solomon?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Military sources?  Ha ha ha.  How about talking to some Iranians and Shiites?  What do military sources have to do with who Khomieni was, his legacy, his influence and relevance to today's events?  You sound cuckoo  

How about correcting him theologically?  Do you agree that Mohammad believed the land of Israel belonged to the Jews, and that he instructed Muslims to stop praying to Jerusalem and face Mecca? 

He an embarrassment, but very typical of the mentality of man on the street Muslim.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 18, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



But he has "military sources"!


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



What nation, what branch, what rank, what specialty, what other degree??????


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



The military and CIA intelligence sources in his noisy head speak to him and tell him who khomeini was, if he was following Shia Islam correctly, and what the seal of Solomon looked like, among other things.  

And oh.....can we get a private room?!


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> House of david, earth air fire water, moon jupiter neptune pluto saturn mars, male female, that is all the star means.
> For demons or any magic controlled by solomon would need to be more extensive.
> You are aware the six point star is also widely used in Islamic art?  Magic and witchcraft are forbidden in Islam.  The star hold no magic.
> Perhaps you should try a book on theurgy or ancient magic instead of relying on Wiki for your only source of information.



I specifically cited that my source for the item was the Testament of Solomon, and the Star of David is prevalent in many traditions including the occult and demonology as is the Testament of Solomon (it does talk about the binding of demons afterall).


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



No. In fact I specifically stated that they were "later books but still fun". I also referred to the Keys of Solomon as later works. You are starting to appear rather desperate in your attempts to "get me" on something.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



The Combating Terrorism Center out of West Point in addition to their Harmony Project is a military academic source. SITE intelligence relies on military analysis as well.


----------



## JWBooth (Mar 19, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...


It was won by conquest, it was lost by conquest. Shit happens.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Fairly new organization established in a post 9-11 era, with very little knowledge of events that took place 35 years ago in Iran. I doubt they existed in the late 70's and 80's when events in Iran were heating up.   Plus, it's a university based research organization located in US. which makes their knowledge extremely limited. 

No wonder.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It is research conducted in conjunction with the US Army and based on captured battle documents (see the Harmony Project) and written by people living both domestically and undercover overseas. Try again.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > House of david, earth air fire water, moon jupiter neptune pluto saturn mars, male female, that is all the star means.
> ...



The ring had an engraved stone upon it, and different versions have different descriptions of the engraving. Probably the most common is the pentagram. 
“Take, O Solomon, king, son of David, the gift which the Lord God has sent thee, the highest Sabaoth. With it thou shalt lock up all demons of the earth, male and female; and with their help thou shalt build up Jerusalem. [But] thou [must] wear this seal of God. And this engraving of the seal of the ring sent thee is a Pentalpha.”


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



The Testament of Solomon wasn't a picture book. And since there never was any ring, its symbol is open to popular interpretation and artistic rendering. the Pentagram is used more often by those who like to link it to the occult and demonology rather than to medieval Jewish literature.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Harmony Program Combating Terrorism Center at West Point
list of documents and subject


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Most were from al-Qaida


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I am familiar with the Harmony Program. What's your point?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Roudy was previously talking about Al Qaeda and ISIS (and we spoke of bin Laden as well) before we jumped onto the topic of Iran. I have plenty of sources on Iran too. In fact I have presented pretty much direct quotes from some of Khomeini's speeches into my arguments and watched roudy argue against them. As I said before, I will happily source them, but it will have to wait until tomorrow (friday). I am working and thus don't have time to do specific citations at the moment.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Launched in 2008!  And we're talking about the Iranian revolution an event that occurred 35 years ago. What a joke this guy is. I'll show you a thousand websites and books by Iranian expats, which will tell you the sad story of Iran and Khomeini in detail. 

So, how about that private room?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I'm always up for a formal debate. I'd be happy to pit my sources and Khomeini's own speeches against your "thousand books".


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



so your calling the star of david is the solomon seal is "your" interpretation and not based on fact

the connection to solomon is that david was his father, house of david nothing more.  No demons, no magic.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Working the private rooms, eh?  Well good luck. Again, it's a U.S. based research center and far from the final "word" surrounding today's issues. Just one of many opinions and voices on the Internet.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



There is no visual "fact". As you stated it wasn't written by the real Solomon. It is a work of Medieval religious fiction.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



But the Harmony Center told him!  He has these very reliable irrefutable sources!


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Was it hanging in one of those private VIP rooms?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Is that really the best you can do? Bit of a one trick pony eh?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



The Harmony Program is a collection of primary sources. They are literally written by terrorists. by arguing against the Harmony Program, you are literally arguing against those in Al Qaeda and ISIS who you were previously claiming to speak for.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



So does the Harmony Center and your esteemed knowledge of the Koran agree that Mohammad and Islam believes Israel and Jerusalem belong to the Jews?  Check with the guys at West Point private area and get back to us!


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Mar 19, 2015)

Freewill said:


> Since Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) never really existed then I guess he can be whatever anyone wants him to be.




?????


You do grasp that there is anthropological evidence confirming that the brutal warlord Muhammad raged across the Arabian peninsula, right? The Byzantines wrote independently of his armies.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Ya right. The "terrorists" have nothing better to do but write love letters to West Point University.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Terrorists write to each other all of the time. they also produce material for public consumption all of the time and publish extensive works on Jihadi forums where they debate ideology. We also have documents captured in raids or obtained through spy networks. One famous incident of battle captured documents are the Abbottabad letters which were captured when Osama bin Laden was killed and which I utilized against you in my earlier arguments concerning the differences between ISIS (then AQI) and Al Qaeda. You were literally arguing against Osama bin Laden's own writings when trying to speak for him and his beliefs. this isn't some sort of conspiracy theory, you are free to browse through the primary documents both in their original language and translated into English yourself through the site.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Ooooo.  Do I need a Harmony Center to tell me that that these are all Islamic supremacist terrorist organizations, competing for which one of their warped ideologies wins the mantle of Islam?  No I don't.

I stated ISIS is an off shoot of Al Al Queda, AND IT IS.

http://www.al-monitor.com/RnbVZ/pulse/ar/security/2013/11/syria-islamic-state-iraq-sham-growth.html

The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) has succeeded in imposing itself as a key player in the complex Syrian equation in a relatively short time, which some consider a record time. That would be the case had ISIS been a new organization, but in fact the only thing new about it is its name. One cannot understand how ISIS has surpassed the other armed organizations in Syria that preceded it without understanding that ISIS, under a different name, is in fact older than the other groups and older than the Syrian crisis itself.

*The roots of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham*

The roots of ISIS go back to Oct. 15, 2006, when what is known as the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) was established. That groups was formed by uniting several groups, most notably al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia, led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Mujahedeen Shura Council in Iraq, and Jund al-Sahhaba [Soldiers of the Prophet’s Companions].

ISI took Baquba, Iraq, as its capital and swore allegiance to Abu Omar al-Baghdadi as the group’s emir. Baghdadi’s real name is Hamed Dawood Mohammed Khalil al-Zawi; he was born in 1959. He used to work in the Iraqi security corps, then left after he embraced Salafist ideology in 1985. He was one of the most prominent promoters of Salafist ideology. He was made head of Jaish al-Taefa al-Mansoura then swore allegiance to al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia, which later formed, with other groups, the Mujahedeen Shura Council in Iraq.

After Zarqawi was killed, Baghdadi was appointed as that council’s emir under the name of Abu Abdullah al-Rashed al-Baghdadi. He was then made head of ISI. In 2010, the ISI’s ministry of Sharia matters announced that Baghdadi had been killed. Afterward, the Mujahedeen Shura Council swore allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as ISI’s emir.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Your disdain for knowledge is once again causing your insecurities to show, and given how often you have gotten basics wrong you probably should read more on the subjects at hand if you wish to have any significant understanding of the issues. the fact that you could argue directly against something that Osama bin Laden himself wrote while claiming to speak for him or argue against the content of Khomeini's speeches while also claiming to speak for him is rather indicative that you aren't as familiar with these individuals and their ideologies as you think you are.


----------



## mudwhistle (Mar 19, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The non-muslim and secular historical evidence for the existence of Prophet Muhammad is overwhelming.     .....


What came first .... Jerusalem or Muhammad?
Saul and king David established Jerusalem as the capital around 1500 years before Muhammad was born.
Jerusalem never belonged to Muhammad.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



The ramblings of a mass murderer in hiding and out of touch, jealous that one of his crew had betrayed the organization and achieved more than him.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You've never actually read the original works of the people who you are claiming to speak for before, have you?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I feel very insecure that I'm not a Koranic scholar like you are. I always wanted to study Mohammads Mein Kampf in detail.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



No. Is that a prerequirement at the university of stupidity?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

mudwhistle said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > The non-muslim and secular historical evidence for the existence of Prophet Muhammad is overwhelming.     .....
> ...



According to that logic the city doesn't belong to Jews either since it existed before Joshua's invasion. Personally, I don't think it "belongs" to any religion.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It is a prerequisite of knowing what you are talking about when it comes to the subject.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



If you know yourself but not your enemy then for every victory you have you will also suffer a defeat.


----------



## mudwhistle (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



It belongs to Israel. Try taking it from them.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



What subject is that?  That ISIS is an offshoot of Al Queda?  That's a fact jack.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

mudwhistle said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



I agree that they have a right to Western Jerusalem.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Islamism, terrorism, conflict, Islam in general. Your self confidence in the face of your admitted lack of study on the subject is a bit piteous.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Like I said I know the enemy very well, on a personal level.

I just find it very revealing that a Koranic scholar like you profess to be, with all these West Point connections, can't admit the basic fact that even the Koran states that Jerusalem and Israel belong to the Jews.

Som ting wong wid dis picture.


----------



## mudwhistle (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


And Mexico has the right to California.

Figure the odds.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You know the enemy well, but have never studied the subject, read any of their writings, and couldn't recognize their own stated ideological structures when I directly quoted them to you? Those are some pretty low standards you have regarding whether or not you can be said to know something "well".


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

mudwhistle said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



Are you disagreeing with the notion that Israel has a right to Western Jerusalem?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Sorry buddy, didnt find it one of my life's ambitions to study the koran. Had seen and heard enough of its effects on the human brains and society in general. It's a barbaric, violent, intolerant, imperialist, supremacist faith. 

And I've personally talked to and interacted with "the enemy" many times.

No need to read "writings". It's all the same basic justifications and Islamic inspirarions.

True story.


----------



## mudwhistle (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


No. 
I was using sarcasm.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Then you'll never know much about Islam or Islamic terrorism.

True story.

Which is fine, but it makes your claim to authority and knowledge in this area rather intellectually dishonest.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Are you disagreeing that the Koran gives Israel to the Jews?


----------



## mudwhistle (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


Israel barely has any land at all. Why doesn't Jordan give the PLO some of theirs?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

mudwhistle said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



Why should they? A right to land doesn't depend on how much you have.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



There isn't anything in the Quran that states that either Jews or Muslims can't live in Jerusalem.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> And I've personally talked to and interacted with "the enemy" many times.
> 
> No need to read "writings". It's all the same basic justifications and Islamic inspirarions.



And yet you still weren't able to recognize their ideological structures when they were directly quoted to you. Once again your standards for authority are pretty low.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I know enough about Islam and where Islam terrorism comes from.  Actually the word terrorism is wrong usage because the terrorists believe they are devout Muslims doing gods work. 

Never professed to be an authority, just one person with a firsthand account and diverse background and knowledge.  You on other hand claim to be an authority, on what I don't know, as you've been proven wrong many times over in this very thread.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > And I've personally talked to and interacted with "the enemy" many times.
> ...



"Ideological structures". You are insane.  You think an extremist or radical Muslim is worried about staying true to "ideological structures."  Your lack of basic knowledge of how the world works is astounding.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Someone with a diverse background and knowledge who argued against Khomeini's own speeches and writings while claiming to speak for him. Sounds legit. No room for improvement there!


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Once again, you are arguing directly against Osama bin Laden here while attempting to speak for terrorists like those who joined his Al Qaeda organization. Quaint.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Ah so you're a liar then as well.  I didn't ask you what it DOESN'T say, I asked you whether the Koran specifically gives Israel to the Jews or not.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



What am I arguing?  ISIS is an offshoot of Al Queda.  That is a fact.  Stay off the baloney.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



where did I utter a lie?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Nice backtracking, the fact that you have had to reduce the entirety of your argument to one basic line is pretty telling regarding how confident you are about the robustness of the rest of your previously stated opinions.  ISIS is indeed a breakaway movement from Al Qaeda, that was never disputed by anyone.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Ha ha ha.  Argued against Khomenis speeches?  You're making shit up now. You're the ignorant one who didn't even know they call Khomeini an Imam in Iran. Stick to the private room lap dancing.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I'd be happy to quote his speeches where he extolls his followers to assault and tear off the turbans of the classical Shia ulama for you if you'd like (showcasing classical shiism's opposition to his ideological structures) which you denied existed when you painted him as a shia pope who represented "traditional and pure Shiism".


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



So. Back track what?  You just like to divert from the subject because you lack real life knowledge that you THINK you've compensated for. But in reality you haven't.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



What subject have I diverted from?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



He gave speeches like that when he came to power?  You are a total idiot and a moron.  When he came to power in Iran women were lashed for even showing their hair or make up and men beaten for not wearing proper attire or having long hair or even shaving.  He was determined to turn back all of the shahs reforms and Impose a strict barbaric form of Islam.

Yes he was like a pope, his picture was in every household and business. Although most did it out of fear. I don't think you've ever talked to an Iranian, you are completely delusional and clueless.

See, this is where your knowledge is crap and garbage and having absolutely nothing to do with reality. If the harmony center gave you this info, flush that site down the toilet.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Simple question you can't answer.  You lack total intellectual honesty. Does the Koran specifically state that Israel aka the promised land belong to the Jews or not. Did Mohammad state that Muslims should pray facing Mecca, not Jerusalem, as it is for the JEWS?  Come on, out with it, ABDUL.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Have you checked the title of this thread?  Too busy in the private massage areas I guess.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Yes. Though in fairness he did tone it down a bit when he entered office, but not enough to prevent exactly that from happening to a renown Shia scholar in Qom: Ayatollah Kazem Shari'atmadari from having exactly that happen to him in 1982.



> Yes he was like a pope, his picture was in every household and business. Although most did it out of fear. I don't think you've ever talked to an Iranian, you are completely delusional and clueless.



I have studied directly under Iranians, among others.



> See, this is where your knowledge is crap and garbage and having absolutely nothing to do with reality.



Algar, Hamid 1981. _Islam and Revolution: Writings and Declarations of Imam Khomeini _page 141. Feel free to look it up.

Also concerning my "crap knowledge" regarding the novelty of Khomeini's approach:

"...it was practically unheard of in the context of Shi'i Islam, whose scholars had long maintained a resolutely quietest political stance toward the government."

Euben, Roxanne and Muhammad Qasim Zaman 2009 _Princeton Readings on Islamist Thought: Texts and Contexts from al-Banna to Bin Laden_ page 155.


----------



## mudwhistle (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


Jordan currently occupies more land that supposedly belonged to Palstine than Israel. Go ask them.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Mohammed turned away from Jerusalem towards Mecca, because the jews would not accept him as their prophet.  Mecca was for the arabs and Jerusalem was for the jews and christians.
Omar also built a mosque off to one corner and left the dome and rest of mount for the other pilgrims.  Jewish rabbis were consulted on where they could build and what was holy to the jews on the mount.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



GAWD does this guy live in this planet?  KHOMEINI as a "progressive" cleric. Tell that to an Iranian and he will laugh so hard he will pee in his pants.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



In all fairness, you're insane and truly ignorant.  May I suggest a book?

*"The Little Green Book" - Ayatollah Khomeini’s Book: Sex with Children and Animals*
The leader of the Iranian Revolution in 1989, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, wrote extensively on Islamic Jurisprudence. A two-volume book, which was published originally in Arabic, was called ‘Tahrir al Wasilah’. Translated into Farsi, the book is called “Tahrirolvasyleh.” (read entire text here.) Khomeini also had another treatise on Islamic rules for living, called in English, “The Little Green Book.” (see entire text here.)
It is useful to understand what an esteemed Islamic leader such as the Ayatollah teaches his followers.

Here are some excerpts from “Tahrirolvasyleh” which Muslims probably don’t want you to know about Islam:

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable. If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister… It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house, rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. ["Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth edition, Qom, Iran, 1990]

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, but selling the meat to a neighbouring village is reasonable. 

If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed as quickly as possible and burned.

Wine and all intoxicating beverages are impure, but opium and hashish are not. 

If a man sodomises the son, brother, or father of his wife after their marriage, the marriage remains valid.

During sexual intercourse, if the penis enters a woman’s vagina or a man’s anus, fully or only as far as the circumcision ring, both partners become impure, even if they have not reached puberty; they must consequently perform ablutions.

A woman who has contracted a continuing marriage does not have the right to go out of the house without her husband’s permission; she must remain at his disposal for the fulfilment of any one of his desires, and may not refuse herself to him except for a religiously valid reason. If she is totally submissive to him, the husband must provide her with her food, clothing, and lodging, whether or not he has the means to do so. A woman who refuses herself to her husband is guilty, and may not demand from him food, clothing, lodging, or any later sexual relations; however, she retains the right to be paid damages if she is repudiated.

If a father (or paternal grandfather) marries off his daughter (or granddaughter) in her absence without knowing for a certainty that she is alive, the marriage becomes null and void as soon as it is established that she was dead at the time of the marriage.

It is not illegal for an adult male to ‘thigh’ or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her. ["The Little Green Book"]
If a man commits adultery with an unmarried woman, and subsequently marries her, the child born of that marriage will be a bastard unless the parents can be sure it was conceived after they were married. A child born of an adulterous father is legitimate.Ali [son in law of Mohammed], having cut off the hands of two thieves, treated their wounds and offered them his hospitality, and this affected them so much that they became utterly devoted to him; or again when he heard that the marauding army of Muawiyah had abused a woman of one of the tribes, he was so upset and moved to pity he declared: “If a man died after such an occurrence, no one could blame him.” And yet, despite a nature as sensitive as that, Ali bared his sword and hacked the perpetrators to pieces. This is the meaning of justice.- “The Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Philosophical, Social and Religious” (The Little Green Book), ISBN number 0-553-14032-9. 

Paedophilia legal in Iran

In June, 2002 Iranian authorities approved a law raising the age at which girls can marry without parental consent from 9 to 13. The elected legislature actually passed the bill in 2000, but the “Guardian Council”, a 12-man body of conservative clerics, vetoed it as contradicting Islamic Sharia law. Iran’s clerical establishment insists that the marriage of young girls is a means to combat immorality. The Expediency Council, which arbitrates between the elected parliament and the theocratic Guardian Council, timidly passed the measure. The law however does not change the age at which children can get married (nine for girls and 14 for boys), but says that girls below the age of 13 and boys younger than 15 need their parents’ permission and the approval of a “Righteous Court.” Reformists state that the new law does not protect children, since most of those who marry at such a young age do so by force. 

A religious decree by Khomeini ordered that girl prisoners who are virgins must be raped before execution, to prevent them from entering heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before execution. The next day, a marriage certificate is issued by a mullah, who sends it to the girl’s family, along with a box of chocolates as a wedding gift.

It is quite common in Iran for older men to marry children, as long as they pay the appropriate bride-price to the girl’s family. This basically means that a father can sell his daughter to whomever he wants, whilst the mad mullahs see this as a means of maintaining purity. We prefer to call this child prostitution and rape, especially given that Iran’s clerics approve of the ‘tradition’ of ‘temporary marriage’ (Mut’a), which can last less than 24 hours and may be repeated as many times as desired. This form of exploitation is widespread and legitimises sex with young children. The man may even visit his temporary wife every weekend at her father’s house, for about $10 per visit. 

Khomeini on prostitution and Mut’a (temporary marriage)

“It is permissible to do Mut’a with an adulteress, but with aversion, particularly if she is a well-known prostitute. If Mut’a is done with her, she should be told to give-up her profession.”

March 15, 2010: Gulf News reports that a guard has been arrested for having sex with the animals he was guarding on a farm. Muslim readers writing in to comment in the newspaper want to to know if the animals are still fit for eating.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Notice the Islamic scholar who makes a living in private rooms has yet be honest about what the Koran actually says about Israel and Jerusalem.

And he wants us to believe that he isn't a Muslim. Ha ha ha.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



He is no scholar of Islam.  A little knowledge is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands.  He has only a limited view of the facts.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 19, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



He professes to have this vast knowledge of Islamic theology and all these fantastic miliary sources which in essence are meaningless, incorrect, delusional, and totally irrelvant to the facts on the ground today.  Just a lame ineffective attempt at deception and compensating for his lack of knowledge.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 20, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...


That's a real pretty speech.

Full of shit, but real pretty.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 20, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow.   ....


Never mind a vicious, barbaric, hallucinating pedophile and bullshit artist.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Muslim75 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...


Or, pretty fulla shit.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Muslim75 said:
> ...


Combine the two?

Kill two stones with one bird? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Done.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Says the person who didn't think that Shiism was traditionally non-political. 

I understand that you two are nursing bruised egos, but this is just sad.


----------



## fanger (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Where are you quoting from?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Riiight. Says the Muslim who pretends not to be one, who can't admit that the Koran gives Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews, didn't even know that Khomeini is referred to as Imam, and now the ignoramus falsely claims that Shiism has been non political.  Then what are all these Shiite empires, DUFUS? 


*List of Shia Muslim dynasties*

The following is a *list of Shi'a Muslim dynasties*:


*Contents*

Egypt and North Africa
Sicily
Spain
Arabian Peninsula
Syria and Iraq
Asia Minor (Modern Turkey)
Iran and Caucasus
India
South-East Asia
East Africa
See also
Notes

*Egypt and North Africa*

Idrisid dynasty (780–985 AD)
Fatimid Caliphate (909–1171 AD)
Banu Kanz (1004–1412 AD)

*SicilyEdit*

Kalbids (948–1053 AD)

*SpainEdit*

Hammudid dynasty (1016–1073 AD)

*Arabian Peninsula*

Banu Ukhaidhir (865–1066 AD) in Al-Yamama
Rassids (893–1970 AD) from Yemen
Sulaihid State (1047–1138 AD) from Yemen
Mutawakkilite Kingdom of Yemen (1926–1970 AD)
Qarmatians (900–1073 AD) from Bahrain
Usfurids (1253–1320) from Bahrain
Jarwanid dynasty (1305–1487) from Bahrain

*Syria and Iraq*

Hamdanid dynasty (890–1004 AD)
Bani Assad (961–1163 AD) (Central and southern Iraq)
Numayrids (990–1081 AD) (Western Iraq)[3]
Marwanids (990–1085 AD)
Uqaylid Dynasty (990–1169 AD)
Mirdasids (1024–1080 AD)

*Asia Minor (Modern Turkey)*

Eretnids (1328–1381)

*Iran and CaucasusEdit*

Justanids (791–974 AD)
Alavids (864–929 AD)
Aishanids (912–961 AD)
Ziyarid dynasty (928–1043 AD
Buyid dynasty (934–1062 AD)
Hasanwayhid (959–1015 AD)
Kakuyids (1008–1051 AD)
Ismaili State of Alamut(Iran) (1090–1256 AD)
Ilkhanate (1256–1335 AD)
Sarbadars (1332–1386 AD)
Jalayirids (1335–1432 AD)
Chupanids (1335–1357 AD)
Injuids (1335–1357 AD)
Marashiyan (1359–1582 AD)
Kara Koyunlu (1375–1468 AD)
Musha'sha'iyyah dynasty (1436–1729 AD)
Safavid dynasty (1501–1736 AD)
Baku Khanate (1592–1806 AD)
Erivan khanate (1604–1828)
Afsharid dynasty (1736–1796 AD)
Ganja khanate (1747–1804 AD)
Talysh Khanate (1747–1828 AD)
Nakhichevan Khanate (1747–1813 AD)
Karabakh Khanate (1747–1822 AD)
Shirvan Khanate (1748–1820 AD)
Zand dynasty (1750–1794 AD)
Qajar dynasty (1785–1925 AD)
Pahlavi dynasty (1925–1979 AD)

*India*

Bahmani Sultanate (1347–1527 AD)
Jaunpur Sultanate (1394–1479 AD)
Bidar Sultanate (1489–1619 AD)
Berar Sultanate (1490–1572 AD)
Ahmadnagar Sultanate (1490–1636 AD)
Qutb Shahi dynasty (1518–1687 AD)
Adil Shahi dynasty (1527–1686 AD)
Nawab of Rampur (1719–1949)
Nawabs of Oudh (1722–1858 AD)
Nawabs of Bengal (1757–1880)
Talpur dynasty (1783–1843)
Hunza (princely state)
Nagar (princely state)

*South-East AsiaEdit*

Daya Pasai (1128–1285 AD).
Bandar Kalibah
Moira Malaya
Kanto Kambar
Robaromun

*East AfricaEdit*

Kilwa Sultanate (957–1506 AD).

YUP, AS WE CAN SEE SHIISM IS TRADITIONALLY NON POLITICAL.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


Game. Set. Match.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Shia majority / preferred states does not mean that the ulama ruled or sanctioned the government as legitimate; a very significant difference between historical states with shia majority populations and/or leanings and Iran's Islamic revolution. Completely different ideological structure.

Nasr, Vali 2007. _The Shia Revival: How Conflicts in Islam Will Shape the Future_.

and

Egger, Vernon 2004 _A History of the Muslim World to 1405_.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



"They never ruled", eh. Take for example the Hamdanid dynasty:

The *Hamdanid dynasty* (Arabic: حمدانيون‎ _Ḥamdānyūn_) was a Shi'a[1] MuslimArab dynasty of northern Iraq (Al-Jazirah) and Syria (890-1004). They descended from the ancient Banu Taghlib Christian tribe of Mesopotamia and east Arabia. T*he Hamdanid dynasty was founded by Hamdan ibn Hamdun (after whom it is named), when he was appointed governor of Mardin in SE Anatolia by the Abbasid Caliphs in 890.*

*His son Abdallah (904-929) was in turn appointed governor of Mosul in northern Iraq (906) and even governed Baghdad (914). His sons were installed as governors in Mosul and Aleppo.

The rule of Hassan Nasir ad-Daula (929-968), governor of Mosul and Diyarbakır, was sufficiently tyrannical to cause him to be deposed by his own family.

His lineage still ruled in Mossul, a heavy defeat by the Buyids in 979 notwithstanding, until 990. After this, their area of control in northern Iraq was divided between the Uqailids and the Marwanids.*

Ali Saif al-Daula 'Sword of the State' ruled (945-967) Northern Syria from Aleppo, and became the most important opponent of the Byzantine Empire's (Christian) expansion. His court was a centre of culture, thanks to its nurturing of Arabic literature, but it lost this status after the Byzantine conquest of Aleppo.

To stop the Byzantine advance, Aleppo was put under the suzerainty of the Fatimids in Egypt, but in 1003 the Fatimids deposed the Hamdanids anyway.

*****RIGHT, TRADITIONALLY NON POLITICAL.  

Stop acting like you know what you're talking about, YOU HAVE NO IDEA.  
The clerics always wanted power, however they were subdued by the Shah and his father.  Islam is a political movement, Shia or Sunni.   

Notice Ahmed can't admit he's a Muslim, nor will he admit what the Koran says about Israel.  Come on Ahmed, out with it. Ha ha ha.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Hamdun wasn't a member of the Ulama. Try again. Also worth noting, family dynasties are not Ulama ruled states, they are well, family dynasties. It's kind of right there in the name.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I suggest you go back to 656 AD and read the history.  In 1501, you think the safavid was not political?  You think the ongoing battle between sunni and shiites is not political?  You think the fact that the Baath party being mostly shiite is not political?  Hezbullah?  Amal?  Dawa?  Sadrist?  ISC?

I grew living through sectarian struggles that eventually escalate in civil war.  I've seen the region ripped apart.  I am well aware of how political all this is.

...and the bombing of the mosques on friday prayer killing at least 137, that was not political?

None of this should be about egos.  It should be about awareness, having the facts and being able to make rational conclusion and decisions based on knowledge and not emotion or lies.  The very fact that you would make this about ego shows your weakness.  This is about understanding.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



And like all Muslim propagandists, he never stops, even though he's embarassed and humiliated repeatedly.   So Achmed, how about telling us  what the Koran says about Jerusalem and Israel. 

You are so transparent.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



I already have.



> In 1501, you think the safavid was not political?  You think the ongoing battle between sunni and shiites is not political?  You think the fact that the Baath party being mostly shiite is not political?  Hezbullah?  Amal?  Dawa?  Sadrist?  ISC?
> 
> I grew living through sectarian struggles that eventually escalate in civil war.  I've seen the region ripped apart.  I am well aware of how political all this is.
> 
> ...



I already addressed the Safavid state. In fact, I was the first one to bring it up. But no, the Safavid state was ruled differently theologically speaking than the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Ulama in the Safavid state never declared the government legitimate religiously speaking (something that could only be reserved for the Mahdi) rather they accepted the illegitimate state as the next best thing. As I said, it is the closest you will really come historically to what Iran is currently, but still significantly different. 

Again I would invite you to read:

Nasr, Vali 2007. _The Shia Revival: How Conflicts in Islam Will Shape the Future_.

Also relating to the Safavids:

Gelvin, James 2008 _The Modern Middle East: A History_.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



His govt. Sources in the private rooms told him that Shia Islam is not political.  

If anything, the Shia vs Sunni wars were about the political struggle for the mantle of a islam, and it's still going on. Based on the ridulous claims made here,  we might be dealing with a convert here.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I don't really care what you think the Quran says about Jerusalem. The Quran has no personal bearing in my life and thus plays no part in my opinions on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. I would care more about the Ottoman Land Codes. But if you two are attempting to utilize the Quranic declaration of praying towards Mecca to suggest that Muslims shouldn't care bout Jerusalem that is both scripturally inaccurate and historically inaccurate. The Night Journey within Islam took place in Jerusalem (supposedly) which makes it a very important site for Islam, not to mention its deep roots connecting it to Christian and Jewish tradition from which Islam borrows. To suggest that Muslims shouldn't care about it seems pretty odd to me.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Actually that was Princeton.  Let me know if you have any sources that support your stances, I have already provided several that support mine; including one from Khomeini himself.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



You don't care or you don't know, that the Koran confirms the story of the exodus, Achmed?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Your need for me to be a secret Muslim in order for you to feel better about my knowing more about Islam than you is sad. Instead of becoming defensive and reliant upon insults you should simply seek to buttress your own knowledge base.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


Sources to provide what?  That you've been humiliated several times in this thread?  Yeah, Shia ullama never ruled, and Princeton told you that!  

You're fulla shiite!  

Rassids

The *Imams of Yemen* and later the *Kings of Yemen* were religiouslyconsecratedleaders belonging to the Zaidiyyah branch of Shia Islam. They established a blend of religious and secular rule in parts of Yemen from 897. Their imamate endured under varying circumstances until the republican revolution in 1962. Zaidiyyah theology differed from Ismailis or Twelver Shi'ites by stressing the presence of an active and visible imam as leader. The imam was expected to be knowledgeable in religious sciences, and to prove himself a worthy headman of the community, even in battle if this was necessary. A claimant of the imamate would proclaim a "call" (da'wa), and there were not infrequently more than one claimant.[1] The historian Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) mentions the clan that usually provided the imams as the Banu Rassi or *Rassids*.[2] In the original Arab sources the term Rassids is otherwise hardly used; in Western literature it usually refers to the Imams of the medieval period, up to the 16th century. The Rassid branch that came to power with imam al-Mansur al-Qasim(r. 1597-1620) is known as *Qasimids* (Al al-Qasimi).

******Now, go hide in your private room.  Ha ha ha


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I don't need you to be anything.  YOU need to stop embarrassing yourself.   I just laugh at your stupidity and ignorance.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



1.) The Zaidis are not part of 12er Shiism, Nor do they follow Jafari or usuli structures. If you need to go to a completely different branch of Islam in order to prove your point then You should probably think about readjusting your initial point.

2.) The Imamate in Yemen was, even in Yemen and among the Zaidis a historical aberration and a break from traditional Zaidi practices. That being said, it wasn't ruled by a council of ulama, it was ruled by a single individual who was an authoritarian leader.

Dresch, Paul 2000_ A History of Modern Yemen_.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Wait, he's going to go into a private room and do a few lap dances at Princeton univ and West Point to get info to explain this one!


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



You are repeating what my link says. Duh.

 Nation ruled by religious leader for centuries. Ulama shulama. Who gives a shiite!  Now get lost.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...




Zaidiyyah - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

yes, I'm lazy, still making my coffee


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that shia literally means "follower of" and that Zaydi Islam is completely different from Usuli and Jafari Islam which is what you were originally arguing about. This is a completely different sub-branch of Islam.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



From the Modern History of Yemen as referenced above:

"When the Turks again took Sanaa, in 1872, al-Mutawakkil Mushin moved north and sustained his claim as Imam (political leader) in accordance with the Zaydi school of Islamic law. Though it had once, in the seventeenth century, produced the Qasimi dynastic state or dawlah, Zaydism had usually been a tradition of the anti-state... nor did most Zaydi scholars accept dynastic succession."


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Named for Zayd b. Ali, grandson of Husayn.  They might be among the most moderate but they are shiite.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



They are a completely different branch of Islam than is 12 Shiism. Different schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Also worth noting that:

1.) Even Zaidis are traditionally anti-state as I referenced above
2.) Even if you want to include them under some larger and generalized Shia label despite their jurisprudential differences and differing ulama, then I'd still point out that finding one example over the course of over a thousand years of history doesn't support the contention that Iranian style Shiism was the historical norm.
3.) Zaidis recognize several Imams (leaders) simultaneously, and they differ in their capacity to the 7 Imams that they revere theologically; and their states have been traditionally run autocratically by the "imam" not through the use of a council of ulama or through formal religious institutions.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Anti state?  There were four empires.  
Do you listen to yourself?


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


Are you operating under the false impression that anybody in The West really gives a rat's ass about dead caliphs and caliphates?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



The existence of a political entity does not mean that it has the support of or is considered legitimate by the religious institutions of the area.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I don't expect anyone to care about them or to share my love of history. I was merely initially pointing out that Roudy's assertion that Iranian style modern political shiism was the historical norm (or even the current norm) was inaccurate. The only historical entity that I referenced prior to this were the Safavids. Roudy and aris brought up all of the others, so perhaps your question would be best directed at them.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 20, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...





Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Where did you get the idea there was anything similar to a separation between mosque and state?
That is a western principle not one existing in Islam.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 20, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Can you support your claims that the Zaidi ulama not only supported these imams but that they ruled through a council under them? Because I already cited a history of Yemen that specifically stated that they were traditionally anti-state.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



who gives a shiite!  You claimed that shiite clerics generally stayed out of politics.  When proven wrong you then diverted to "well they aren't the same type of Shiites, or they aren't the Ullama".  

Irrelevant!


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Imams and Emirs: State, Religion and Sects in Islam By Fuad I. Khuri

Shi’a Political Thought by Ahmed Vaezi

>>Zaidi Shi'ites are well known for passionate loyalty to their Imams (traditional dual religious/political leaders)<<


----------



## Osomir (Mar 23, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common


----------



## Osomir (Mar 23, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



That says nothing about Zaidi state building. Zaidis commonly have a number of Imams at the same time. It would be more appropriate to see them as tribal leaders than anything else. It has been very rare in Yemeni history that the north / west could unite and even then it was, once again ruled by a single autocrat rather than by a council of Ulama like Iran, a style of government that you have yet to provide evidence of in Yemen.


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Mar 23, 2015)

"Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims"






"If you want it, come and claim it!"


----------



## Osomir (Mar 23, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is nothing sexy or glorious about someone holding a gun, especially a kid like that.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims"
> ...



You would be surprised.


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims"
> ...



Too vague?






"If you want him, come and claim him!" - "Lord of the Rings"


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Mar 23, 2015)

Same hand, hot brunettes both sheesh. See a movie guys.


----------



## Mr.Right (Mar 23, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...


You rag heads have been trying to exterminate the Jews for how long? How's that working out for you? The Jews are Gods chosen people. He has gathered them from around the globe to their homeland, just as the Bible prophesied. The Bible also teaches that the generation that witnessed that event will see the coming of Christ. It won't be long now. Mohammed and all of his followers will be thrown into the lake of fire. There is still time to repent.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 23, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



Haha fair enough, But I'm sure I don't have to tell you that there is a big difference between fantasy violence and real life conflict. Easy to cheer when an orc gets beheaded, but watching people cheer while humans butcher each other is tragic. I have seen the bodies of those hacked to death by machetes. It looks a lot different than Peter Jackson imagined it. I never link the two as I tend to find it dehumanizing and a downplaying of the seriousness of the issue.


----------



## Lipush (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims"
> ...




Mhmmm....


Is this better, than?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 23, 2015)

Lipush said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



No. I have worked with child soldiers before, I have experienced few things as haunting.


----------



## Delta4Embassy (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Sure, but a lot of movies, especially in the fantasy and sci-fi genres are symbolic for real world things. If said in a real-world sorta movie, the intent would be clear and upset people, so writers often use make-believe genres to say what they wanna say without offending people. "Star Wars" was a Greek mythical story for example following identical themes the Greeks used with heros, monsters, etc. "The Matrix" was a Jewish metaphor through and through. 

Star Wars sources and analogues - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

"Star Wars, the popular space opera saga, and cultural touchstone, is acknowledged to have been inspired by many sources. These include Hinduism, Qigong, Greek philosophy, Greek mythology, Roman history, Roman mythology, parts of the Abrahamic religions, Confucianism, Shintō, and Taoism, not to mention countless cinematic precursors."

Beyond the Matrix

"The Matrix is a powerful metaphor expressing some of Judaism's most fundamental beliefs."

While Tolkien denies LOtR was a metaphor (for WWII) that doesn't mean I can't make it one.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 23, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



I enjoy mythology and fantasy, and I often see the influences of history and historical mythology especially within the fantasy and sci-fi genres. That doesn't bother me, the glorification of killing each other tends to though. I've also known people who literally try to cope with the realities of conflict that they are faced with by equating themselves to fantasy or mythical figures / story lines. Those men always break once reality becomes too much for them to fit into their conceptualizations. Outside of conflict zones, it makes fighting seem more clean and meaningful than it tends to be. stabbing an orc from horseback while dramatic music plays is a lot different than a little boy who is forced to rape his grandmother and beat his father to death with a stick before being given drugs and brainwashed into killing civilians for sport.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited.  Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter?  Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make.  Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little?  Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 23, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims"
> ...



Then you haven't dated Israeli women. They would kick your whiney ass three times over and don't take shit from any man.  If you're an insecure man who thinks men have an inherent right to rule over women and abuse them as they do in most of the Muslim world, stay away from Israeli women.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



My thesis was on women's rights within developmental economics  I work with women empowerment all of the time, from post conflict situations to business development. You're just getting more and more desperate, as I stated before, when you can't support your positions factually you simply result to personal attacks. Pretty typical.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims"
> ...






There is nothing sexy about supporting islamonazi terrorism either, yet you do it all the time


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Sounds like your thesis was in making diversionary, irrelevant and false comments because nothing you just said negates what I stated about Israeli women.  Anybody who knows Israelis and Israeli women will confirm. Again, I speak from real life experience from living in Israel for two years, having visited it at least 9 times, and dated Israeli women both in Israeli and the U.S., and you speak out of Uranus.  That woman is not a kid either, she is of military service age, which would be the same as it is in the US. 

Nor does your thesis answer why someone like you would bother to learn so many outdated factoids about Islam.

You must be a Turk. Ha ha ha.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...







 Tolkiens Lord of the Rings was a metaphor for islam if you read the many biographies written. Quite a lot of fantasy writers draw on islam for inspiration for the bad guys, take Goodkind and his Sword of Truth books that casts the muslims as the bad guys that mass murder, rape and pillage and collect cannon fodder as they progress to take over the world.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



She is a child, with a gun. I have seen many like her in Sierra Leone, Liberia, the DRC, Uganda, and the Sudan. There is nothing sexy about conflict.The fact that we glorify it is childish and revolting.

I know about Islam because I specialize in conflict and terrorism, and post conflict development and I specialize in sub-Saharan Africa and have a love of history. I know because I care, because I have witnessed it, and because it allows me to be better at my job.


----------



## Lipush (Mar 24, 2015)

A child?

an 18 year old is not a child.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Lipush said:


> A child?
> 
> an 18 year old is not a child.



Yes they are.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



This is where you are caught lying.  We were never discussing "the Ullama" you simply claimed that it was not common in Shia history for clerics or religious leaders to become involved in politics.  That has been proven utterly false.  Prior to that you were whining that there is no way Khomeini could be referred to as Islam, and I also proved that one to be false a as we. You diverted and the Ullama after I proved that your statement about clerics running Shia countries turned out to be false. 

So like I said, you have no real knowledge, just empty factoids and lies.  Here is your claim on post #57 of this thread:

"Iran's council is by far one of the weakest Shia theological institutions in the world. Shia centers of theology tend to surround Qom and Najaf. Historically speaking and theologically speaking, Iran's political shia model goes against classical Shia Islam and is a relatively new expression on the faith." 

Utterly false and incorrect, historically, factually, and currently. Now run along before I make you eat your own words. Ha ha ha.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > A child?
> ...



Another ignorant statement. Then all miltaries in the world are using children.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



So show me a single example of Iran's political style model in the history of 12er Shiism then.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I would agree.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



According to US law an 18 year old is considered a total adult.  Stop talking out of your anus.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You've never been a parent have you? You've never seen conflict either.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


12er Shiism?  You diverted to that and "the Ullama" after I proved how wrong you were.  You could have not been more wrong.  Quit while you're ahead so you can come back and bullshit another day.


----------



## Lipush (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > A child?
> ...



No they're not. Drafting age at 18 is perfectly fine. and legal


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Even your attempted Zaidi Yemeni example doesn't conform to the Iranian governance model. So do you have anything like Iran's political system?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Lipush said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I'm not arguing against the legality of it. But teenagers are still largely children, especially in conflict. She also still has the look of innocence around her. I've seen children who have lost their childhoods, children who are no longer children. She isn't one of them.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



One ignorant statement after another.  A child will always be a child to a parent no matter how old they are. And I and my family have EXPERIENCED conflict and its effects many times.  While you simply may have had snippets where you may have observed something.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



You try very hard to make yourself sound knowledgable and an authority.  YOU ARE NOT.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



If that's what you need the truth to be.


----------



## Lipush (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



It's the cost of living in conflict.

The world is not all roses and pink bunnies


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Yawn.  You really need to stop whining. Your statement was in reference to SHIA ISLAM.  You aren't even an intellectually honest person. How surprising.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


The claims you make and the way you support them are evidence.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Then find me an example in Shia Islam. The Zaidi Imamates are not similar to the Iranian style of governance.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count.  How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



The entire conversation has been about whether or not this form of governance has been common within Shia Islam and whether or not Iran's model is common within 12er Shiism. Why on earth would you subsequently then try to say yes by pointing to Sunni countries and polities? Are you two really so proud that you can't admit that you got one simple fact wrong?

Also, if you want to go there then no, even within Sunni Islam which is structured differently than Shiism, those countries: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Bahrain are not ruled like Iran. In Saudi Arabia there is a very distinct divide between the rulers (the Sauds) and the Wahhabis. They complement each other, but it is not the same as having the religious clerics in charge. It is familial authoritarian rule.

In fact sunni Islamists tend to see Iran as very irritating specifically because they have been able to achieve something that Sunni Islamists haven't been able to pull off within the contemporary period. It is embarrassing for them and riddles the discourse of Sunni Islamists and terrorists.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



The thread topic is "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims".  34 pages of conversation and they are not all about shia/shiite ulama.  I also gave you two other countries to dispute your "single case" demand............and you are not discussing but attacking posters when they present information.
Seems you are more afraid to consider that you might be the one that is wrong.  You need to take a deep breath and relax.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



No need for hysterics. Pakistan and Bahrain don't fit Roudy's point either, they are in fact further away from it than even Saudi Arabia and once again all Sunni, not Shia. So once again, let me know when either of you have any supporting evidence of your claims.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Holy Shiite! There goes another of Osomir's claims, down the flush!  Like I said, he tries to compensate his lack of knowledge by blurting out these inaccurate statements, which have nothing to with facts or reality.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



 The Role of the Ulama in Shiite Social Movements: Bahrain, Lebanon, and Iraq by Brian P. Maynard
Up till last year the ulama in Bahrain held vast authority over the government and life.  The ulama council was ordered to shut a few months ago


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Yeah.  He's very good at making himself look stupid.  And I don't even know if we are dealing with a he, sounds more like a she to me. 

Now you know why Osomir wanted to be in a private room, so that everyone else doesn't see him / her get constantly humiliated!  Ha ha ha. 

Makes sense now.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



It appears that Osomirs entire existence is making himself look knowledgable on the Internet, and when people like us shatter it, his entire world crumbles.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Yes, the entire conversation is about your diversionary, stupid and ignorant claim that Iran's mullah's and Khomenis legacy not being the spearhead of the Shai world, and it's political and ideological tentacles throughout the region and the world.  One day you when you remove your head from Uranus, a loud POP will be heard across the world.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I already provided evidence of shiite clerics ruling for over a thousand years in Yemen,  Then you said "well they're not Ullama or 12ers". That's how lame and pathetic you are. It's no use debating with someone like you, who totally lacks intellectual honesty, and is insecure about his knowledge.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



sexist?  
a she being irrational, air headed, less intelligent?  Perhaps on this one you should hold your tongue.  It did not sound like you were intending the "she" as a compliment.

Except for foul language or threats, a private room is just hiding from others that might confirm or debunk points being made.  Laughter makes the seriousness of the topics more palitable.  When the clowns become hostile or wear out their jokes we can ignore or block them for a short time.

Private room might be more appropriate for off topic conversation rather than continuing an ongoing one.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


Ulama  performing basic judicial duties is a far cry from the Iranian model and has nothing to do with the political shiism that Roudy was talking about. In fact, Bahrain has been pretty heavy handed with its shia population since it isn't a shia run state. Saudi Arabia even sent in troops to prevent any such social or governmental revolution.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



You guys realize that the whole "private room" thing was entirely of your own construction right? I suggested a more formal discussion in the open and public structured discussion sub-forum. Essentially a similar one as we are having now only where name calling isn't allowed and where opinions have to be sourced and points directly responded to.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Let me know when you are able to find a single example of your claim.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



No I meant that I just don't envision Osomir as a man, based on the language he or she uses. I've seen men say stupider things, though.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



I already told you twice:  YEMEN.  The clerics there had been ruling for over a thousand years. So your claim that "traditionally Shia religious figures don't get involved in politics" is baloney.  I'm not going to recite the entire history of Shiism once more, just because you have no shame and can't own up to the truth. 

Now crawl away.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Ahhhhh

True


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



What do you think?  Man or woman? 

Otherwise, he or she sounds like a genius compared the other resident Islamist nutjobs like Sunniman, Muslim75, or IndoFred.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 24, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You mean ignorant morons like you can't be told what they actually are, despite their illusions about themselves?  No fun!


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Unimpressive male.  Just unimpressive.

Sunni with his grunts and so whats sounds smarter.  Less foot-in-mouth


----------



## Osomir (Mar 25, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



That doesn't make any sense, but I can't say I am particularly surprised by it. Anyway, as usual, your deductive reasoning is incorrect; I am a male.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 25, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



No they haven't. I also already quoted sources confirming as much. Once again I also find it amusing that you have to rely on a single example when your original assertion was that it was a common feature within Shia Islam. It's cute.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 25, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



You haven't quoted or proven jack shit. Everything you've claimed has been proven incorrect.  You asked for a "single sample of Shia religious leaders getting involved in politics", and I provided you with one.  Like I said I'm not going to sit here and recite the entire history of Shai Islam, nor am I interested in doing as such.   Now you're whining about "why I keep referring to it as an example". You are a truly pathetic and intellectually dishonest person. 

Bottom line is Islam has always been about being a religious as well as a political Arab imperialistic movement..  Shiite or Sunni, the it's the same shiite.  As far as your claim that the clerics in Yemen "didn't rule", here it is again, you have been humiliated for the 12th time in this thread:

The *Imams of Yemen* and later the *Kings of Yemen* were religiously consecrated leaders belonging to the Zaidiyyah branch of Shia Islam. They established a blend of religious and secular rule in parts of Yemen from 897. Their imamate endured under varying circumstances until the republican revolution in 1962. The imam was expected to be knowledgeable in religious scholarship, and to prove himself a worthy headman of the community, even in battle if this was necessary.

Now run along before I humiliate you again.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 25, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



A zaidi imamate doesn't look anything like the Iranian state. You would know that of course if you had ever studied Yemeni history and Zaidi precepts. I have, and I already quoted from a direct history of Yemen written through Cambridge that completely contests your claims. I'd also point out that there tended to be several imams at the same time in Yemen, and that a formal state apparatus in and of itself was uncommon let alone one ruled by an assembly of religious clerics, which is simply not how the imamates functioned. The last one was literally ruled by a guy out of a hut in the north. There was no religious council that vetted legislation, nor judicial branch separate of him, he did everything himself as an individual autocratic ruler and without a formal religious education, nor did his son possess such an education when he took over power from his father; instead he was a military leader who was allied to the communists and supported by the Soviet Union and China. In fact even the base Zaidi understanding of what an Imam is is completely different from the Iranian jurisprudential and belief structure.

Your heavy reliance on generalizations gleamed from wikipedia isn't serving you too well.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 25, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



What are you blabbering now?  

You claimed that traditionally, Shiite religious figures did not get involved in politics or ruling a country. 

I provided you a clear example where they ruled a country for almost a thousand years.  

Instead of owning up to the fact that you were wrong and fulla shiite, you're now doubling down by whining and running around like a chicken with it's cut off., blabbering all kinds of nonsense and irrelevant shiite.   

Keep twirling!


----------



## Osomir (Mar 26, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



I am not sure where you are getting the thousand years from. Also, they ruled through familial lines; once again that is nothing like the Iranian state model that you claimed was the norm for the Shia world.

You were wrong. Deal with it.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Hah?  "They ruled through familial lines".  What did you expect, the first clerics to stay alive for 900 years?  Point is nation was ruled by a shiite cleric and religious law and the power was passed down one cleric leader to another. 

I showed you a sample of shiite religious figures ruling a nation, from 873 to 1962.  You said Shiite religious figures didn't get involved in politics and ruling nations. And that is factually and historically incorrect.  Now carefully remove your foot from your mouth.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 26, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The title of Imam within Zaidi Islam doesn't mean that they are a cleric; which implies formal religious education; rather they were Imams based on their blood ties to the bloodline of Muhammad and due to their respective tribal power; you are trying to equate the definition of Imam within Zaidi Islam to the definition of it as you see it within Usuli / Jafari Islam and the two simply aren't the same. It is also worth noting that familial dynasties are the antithesis to the Iranian model of religious rule as well so trying to equate the two as similar is simply dishonest. Imams also didn't rule Yemen from 873 to 1962 Yemen has never had such a contiguous history as a definable polity. To suggest as much is to ignore the entire history of the area.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...






 So who is the cause of most of the deaths in Africa then, who caused the genocides on Eritrea, Biafra and Ethiopia for starters


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...







 What a load of crap.   A work colleague of mine became a "cleric" at his mosque. He attained this post by buying it from the outgoing "cleric" as he was the highest bidder. He made his money back within 3 months from his cut of the zakat. He appointed juniors from amongst the losing bidders to act as his surrogate when he was unable to attend the mosque due to work commitments. He had no formal religious training just an understanding of the Koran that he had to show the elders of the mosque. His badge of office was a skull cap and subservience from all the other muslims toadying up to him.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 26, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The war in the DR Congo in terms of death tolls alone is greater than all of those three "genocides" put together. If you want to talk about Ethiopia though, the government was a Christian one that persecuted and absorbed Eritrea and then followed by a communist one, same for the internal repression of Ethiopian regions like Wello and Tigray. It was a state based on Solomonic legacy and Ethiopian Orthodoxy / cult of personality prior to the communist coup.

Biafra had more ethnic connotation surrounding the Igbo than it did religious ones and there was no genocide there despite everyone's fears and past pogroms.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 26, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The word "cleric" doesn't really have a meaning in formal Islam. It is a western / Christian word that has become commonplace usage and it is the terminology that Roudy has been using which is why I earlier stated specifically 'ulama' and marja which are more specific words. Also worth noting that the same title can have different meanings depending on which branch of Islam, or what physical area you are talking about. for a lot of Sunni regions, all it takes to be a "cleric" or a Shaikh is simple respect / followers; in fact a lot of Shaikhs for example have no formal religious education but are tribal leaders instead. Another example would be the term "imam" which has radically different meanings between shiism and sunni structures in Sunni Islam it is simply the leader of prayer, certainly no one equivalent to the Shia Imams or the Marjas. In Sunni Islam Imams can be a person of knowledge and learning, but does not have to be. It is far different from the status of a marja or ulama.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



>>leadership position. It is most commonly in the context of a worship leader of a mosque<<


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


----------



## Osomir (Mar 26, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



That is an imam in Sunni Islam yes, it has nothing to do with Zaidi Islam though in that terminology, an imam has more specific definitions within zaidi jurisprudence and historical context.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Imamah pass father to son.  Cleric is schooled in the quran and law.

What are you really doing here?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 26, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



A cleric aka an Imam in Sunni Islam is anyone who is considered respected and has a following regardless of their personal religious knowledge. A cleric in Shiism (generally a reference to the Ulama) is someone who is welled learned in formal training. Cleric in general has a pretty tenuous meaning in Islam since it isn't native to the religion and is a western Christian word.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



This is an english forum, so most would not use the word mullah, so  why don't you?  It is the same thing and many that are bilingual use the term cleric when speaking in english.  You act like the word is not used, or that no one here has any understanding of the quran and islam.

Again, why are you really here?  Masochist that enjoys getting verbally whipped?  Vanity, thinking you are better that everyone?  You are not even close to being the smartest person here.  You are not an expert on arabic or islam, or any religion.  This is not a religious forum but a political one.  What are you really here for?


----------



## Roudy (Mar 26, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



Yada yada yada. You write and squirm a lot when confronted with the truth.  I already provided ample evidence that these guys were religious figures and ruled the country as such, for centuries.  Therefore your claim that Shiite religious figures stayed away from politics and positions of power is factually and historically incorrect. Which means Iran's Islamists didn't do what other Shiite sub-sects haven't done in the past.

You lost and ate some shiite, get over it.  Case closed.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 26, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Well said Aris   like I said he tries to compensate his lack of knowledge with these bullshit insignificant factoids that have nothing to do with reality.  For example I stated that in Iran Khomeini is considered an Imam, and then the idiot goes off in this tangent that Khomieni cannot be an Imam according to the religion blah blah blah as if I didn't already know it.  Then I showed how Khomeini has the official title of Imam in Iran, and he started speaking in tongues again.  Then he doubled down with this insane claim that Khomeini was actually a "progressive" ayatollah which made me wonder what planet he actually lives in, as only an mentally insane person would make such a claim. 

The guy is just plain ignorant and has no real life experience. It's pretty obvious. This is what Osomir reminds me of:


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2015)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



maybe someone will let me know when he is right.......if it ever happens


----------



## Roudy (Mar 26, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



He does a good job of acting like he knows what he's talking about. Perhaps an acting career in Pakistan's version of Bollywood?


----------



## Osomir (Mar 27, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



I use the words because that is what they are called and they have different meanings. You demonstrated the pitfalls of not paying attention to the meanings yourself a couple of posts ago when you confused Sunnis with Shias.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 27, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You were wrong. Deal with it.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 27, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...


----------



## Osomir (Mar 27, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You were wrong. Deal with it.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 28, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...






And they were all invaded by muslims


----------



## Osomir (Mar 28, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



If you're talking about Somalia and the Ogaden, then I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Ethiopia invaded the Ogaden first, that's why it is a part of the country in the first place instead of part of greater Somalia.


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 28, 2015)

Osomir said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Osomir said:
> ...



>>The Somali National Army committed to invade the Ogaden at 03:00 on July 13, 1977<<


----------



## member (Mar 28, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow.   ....



So, who's idea was it (_not the Prophet_?) to have me covered-up from head to toe to make look like some grim-reaper-zombie-mummy ?







​

_was it you ?_

or was it----your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great uncle mahmood ?

Ever see a picture of your great uncle mahmood ?





....very, very similar to this.  This is by the cave-hangout in yemen, _circa_ 7th century....they may be your: great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great cousins...tariq, caliphate & JZ.


*"The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow."*







_*"perfect example - emulate." *_ some _"ain't"_ 'emulating' properly sunni mangle.


----------



## Osomir (Mar 28, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Right. That was LONG after the Ethiopian polity had invaded, conquered, and consolidated the Ogaden territory (late 1800's - early 1900's).


----------



## skye (Mar 28, 2015)

Jerusalem belongs to israel and Jerusalem is never to be divided.

Period.


----------



## Muslim75 (Apr 11, 2015)

I wish to remind (of the matter as explained in the opening post).


----------



## Roudy (Apr 11, 2015)

^^^^^
Listen to Moha-MAD.  He very clearly gave Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews.


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 12, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> I wish to remind (of the matter as explained in the opening post).





 Been debunked by the words of a arab muslim leader of the Palestinians who admitted that the Jews had a bigger claim than the arab muslim illegal immigrants.


----------



## Mr.Right (Apr 12, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...


Muhammed is burning in hell, and you'll be joining him one day.


----------



## Muslim75 (Jul 11, 2015)

Let me make this post to remind of the matter discussed in the Opening Post.

Thank you.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Let me make this post to remind of the matter discussed in the Opening Post.
> 
> Thank you.







 Which has been proven to be a pack of lies


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 11, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello, I am Muslim...


That and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.



> ...Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty...


Everyone knows that Muhammed (*P*eanut butter and jelly *B*e *U*pon *H*im) *claimed* to be a prophet of God.

However, few of his contemporaries would concede that fantasy unless a Muslim sword was pointed at their throats.



> ...holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey. Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ...


Fairy tales for gullible Arab children.



> ...Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended, while Muhammad took over as the 124 000th prophet, the last of all prophets, who closes the cycle of prophethood. Servanhood of God Almighty, today, and since the 7th century is only through Muhammad's Islam, through true Islam...


The creators of these fairy tales spent far too much time indulging in hashish - or smoking camel dung.



> ...Jerusalem now belongs to Muhammad, no more to Jesus, no more to Moses, no more to Abraham...


Let us know when Muhammed shows up with the pink slip (land deed or title).



> ...This is what pleases God Almighty...


I have no idea what pleases God Almighty.

Neither do you.

And it is high presumption for you to pretend otherwise.



> ...As such, what Americans, Israelis, Europeans, Christianity and Judaism are doing is pure wickedness, pure evil...


You are entitled to your opinion, based upon your primitive desert philosophy.

We are equally entitled to hold a different opinion.

And to laugh at you and yours.



> ...Nevertheless, ever since the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century under Umar (may God be well pleased with him), Islam has never been denied Jerusalem or Palestine, and it never will, to the end end of times.


Don't look now, but Muslim rule of Jerusalem ended December 9, 1917...







98 years ago..

Battle of Jerusalem - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And, when the British pulled out in 1948, the Jews grabbed half the pink-slip, because the Arabs couldn't hold onto it...

A poor showing by the Arabs that had the rest of the world laughing at you, then, and now...

And then the Jews finished the job in 1967...






Six-Day War - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

So, as the calendar creeps up on the *100th anniversary* (1917-2017)* of the loss of Muslim control of Jerusalem*...

Do feel free to continue deluding yourself, with such child-like fantasies...

The West no longer fears you, nor buys into your bullshit...

But... your delusions will bring you great comfort, as the rest of the world laughs at you...

Hope that helps you to put things into perspective - perhaps for the first time in your silly little life.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 11, 2015)

Sunni Man said:


> The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow.   ....



That's actually comical, coming from a goofy convert who is safely ensconced in the Great Satan and exploiting his Western lifestyle.....


----------



## Penelope (Jul 11, 2015)

The Jews took it by force and are continuing to do so, with all their money, power and "fighting spirit".


----------



## Hollie (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> The Jews took it by force and are continuing to do so, with all their money, power and "fighting spirit".


You are obviously uneducated regarding the history of the area. It was the Arab-Moslem crusading armies who have tried, unsuccessfully, to take the Jewish homeland by force. The Islamo-fascists have suffered humiliating defeats in those multiple efforts.

You can thank me, and others, for trying to educate you even though you struggle to maintain your ignorance.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > The beloved Prophet Muhammad is the perfect example for all of mankind to emulate and follow.   ....
> ...







 I want to know what his prophesies where as I cant find any anywhere


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> The Jews took it by force and are continuing to do so, with all their money, power and "fighting spirit".





Is that why the arab's who attacked where beaten back by farmers wielding hoes and rakes ?


----------



## Penelope (Jul 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > The Jews took it by force and are continuing to do so, with all their money, power and "fighting spirit".
> ...


What a joke.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> The Jews took it by force and are continuing to do so, with all their money, power and "fighting spirit".


And they had great fun doing it, I'm sure. So?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


No joke.

The Jews now control Jerusalem.

And have since 1967.

Next slide, please.


----------



## Penelope (Jul 11, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > The Jews took it by force and are continuing to do so, with all their money, power and "fighting spirit".
> ...



Jews can thank  Britain they even got It in the first place. It was never the jew homeland. Never unless you considered yourself's  Canaanites ,Phonecians, Egyptians,  Greeks, Arabs, Turks, and Romans..


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


None of that old shit matters any longer.

The Jews have it now.

And they're going to keep it.


----------



## Penelope (Jul 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Only by bloodshed and thievery.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


They learned from the best in the bloodshed and thievery categories...

Muslim-Arabs with their Dhimmitdude and their knives at the throats of Jews.

Doesn't feel so great, being on the Receiving End for once, does it?

Tough.

Enjoy.


----------



## Penelope (Jul 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



I'm not on the receiving end.  The Hebrews showed no respect for that land or Jerusalem in history, even throughout their Hebrew books. The preferred the cities like Babylon and Alexandria. Its all a fake history of Jews or Israelites really being any powerful own of Palestine or Jerusalem, they were always sojourning in someone else's land, and most times the people allowed it till they upraised and fought to make it their own. Hey I'm glad they have a place to call home but not at the expense of the people who lived there.  They need to find an island somewhere and go and live, as they just can't live among other human beings.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Somebody with a better understanding of the Jewish ancestral and spiritual and cultural connection of the Jews to the lands of the ancient Kingdoms of Judah and Israel etc. will have to school you on this.

And, it doesn't matter, anyway.

The Jews own it now.

And will continue to own it.


----------



## Penelope (Jul 11, 2015)

Please the kingdom of Judah and Kingdom of Israel were always fighting in the OT. They intermarried from day one. They are mainly Ashkenazi's there, and Russian jews or whatever they are called, Russians as they do not practice Judaism. The orthodox jews are shunned by even the Israelites there. 

It nothing but another Saudi Arabia in the making, which is the worst.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


The fact is, most everybody can thank someone else for the land they call home. The history of humankind is defined by land swapping ownership. Just ask your heroes representing ISIS for the most recent episode. It seems you Jooooooo haters are pretty selective regarding your phony and contrived indignation.


----------



## Penelope (Jul 11, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Land swapping owenership, yes the Joes are good at that, if they have the weapons. Let them all live together, the only reason they live among gentiles is to get their money. Sorry having read history and even the new, Muslims see more humane than Jews, and I'm not talking about the radical ones, also I'm not under the misunderstanding that Muslims did 911, that was Israel baby, a few in our gov. All to get us into the war with Iraq.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



History, according to asylum escapee Penepoop.

The Joooos!  The Jooos!


----------



## Roudy (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Damn, you just touched on all the anti semtic canards in just two posts!

Jooos are thieves, Jooos can't be trusted, Jooos are bloodthirsty demons,  Joooos are just after your money, Jooos get us into wars.  What else?

I give you an A+ in Jew hate-ology.  Were you an honor student at Gaza Islamic University of Stupidity?


----------



## HUGGY (Jul 11, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



The bad news is: You and your muslim ilk are as crazy as coots. 

The good news is that the jews and christians are also as crazy as coots.

Where places are placed on this planet and the actual people residing there is REALITY!

Where your Muhamed and JC and Moses are claimed in your respective comic books to have traveled is FANTASY!

All you religious freaks should take your so called prophetic novels and throw them in the trash.  They have caused too much human suffering.  Your lunacy has caused too much human suffering. 

My advice is that you people grow up and take personal responsibility for your own actions and stop these silly claims of ownership of other people's property. 

My hope is that you religious people kill each other until your blight upon the world is just as dead as your respective made up manuals on how to hate.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 11, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Oh, narly. A Joooooooo hater _and_ a rabid conspiracy theorist.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 11, 2015)

Mohammad never set foot in Israel.


----------



## JFish123 (Jul 11, 2015)

The Jews were there long before any muslim. 1,400 years before Muhammad. They were given it BACK by the UN and kept it when all muslims tried to genocide them as there trying to to this day.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## proudveteran06 (Jul 11, 2015)

Muslim75 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
> Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...


 
This is why Islam is noted to be a Gutter Religion . Is what ISIS is doing part of your " religion?" Of course it is. Mohammed was a child molestor who taught hate and intolerance


----------



## Roudy (Jul 11, 2015)

JFish123 said:


> The Jews were there long before any muslim. 1,400 years before Muhammad. They were given it BACK by the UN and kept it when all muslims tried to genocide them as there trying to to this day.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mohammad and the Koran also thought that Israel belongs to the Jews. Mohammad instructed his followers to face Mecca and not Jerusalem, because Jerusalem was for the Jews. Mohammad never mentioned a Palestine or a Palestinian people. Calling Israel a Muslim land should be considered blasphemy in Islam but since most Muslims are ignorant and illiterate they follow their leaders blindly.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...






 Yes the arab league where when the Jews defended with farm tools and old shotguns. When you are fighting for your life and beliefs you are stronger than your enemies ever can be. What possible motive could a Pakistani soldier have to die in a land foreign to him ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...






They would have eventually taken it by other means


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...







 Wasn't that how your fellow muslims acquired it in 1948


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...








Where in the Koran is any part of Palestine mentioned as a religious site for muslims ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Please the kingdom of Judah and Kingdom of Israel were always fighting in the OT. They intermarried from day one. They are mainly Ashkenazi's there, and Russian jews or whatever they are called, Russians as they do not practice Judaism. The orthodox jews are shunned by even the Israelites there.
> 
> It nothing but another Saudi Arabia in the making, which is the worst.







Then do explain why it is that these "Russian" Jews have the same genetic tracers that the ancient land owners had. Proven from DNA analysis of the bodies buried in Jewish graveyards. Stranger still is the fact that not one of the arab muslims tested had a better than 85% match, which is the match that even a North American white convert like you would have to a Jew or Muslim.
 Destroys your whole argument and shows you as the Jew hating Nazi you are


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...






Then why is it when you gentiles get your way and evict them from your country you suddenly find yourselves impoverished and destitute. Just look at 1930's America in the grip of rabid anti semitic Jew hatred how fast the powerhouse of the world was brought to its knees.  You would not chase away a race winning horse just because you don't like its colour would you, well the Jews are the same. They are the bankers of the world that keep you in the riches you deserve, it is not their fault that you are so lazy that you wont work harder for what you want.

 I know that it was muslims that did 9/11 and 7/7 as they bragged about it all the time


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Mohammad never set foot in Israel.






And Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the koran


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 12, 2015)

Jerusalem is built by Jews..


----------



## Challenger (Jul 12, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



....for now...been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times...if you really believe this is the end of the story, you are deluding yourself.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Mohammad never set foot in Israel.



CORRECT!! Israel didn't exist in his lifetime.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 12, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Jerusalem is built by Jews..


Prove it using objective non-Biblical/Torah sources. The city is known to predate the invention of Judaism.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 12, 2015)

JFish123 said:


> The Jews were there long before any muslim. 1,400 years before Muhammad. They were given it BACK by the UN and kept it when all muslims tried to genocide them as there trying to to this day.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Alan Derschowitz?


----------



## JFish123 (Jul 12, 2015)

Challenger said:


> JFish123 said:
> 
> 
> > The Jews were there long before any muslim. 1,400 years before Muhammad. They were given it BACK by the UN and kept it when all muslims tried to genocide them as there trying to to this day.
> ...


Well, whatever you think about him, what he says is true regardless lol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Challenger (Jul 12, 2015)

JFish123 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > JFish123 said:
> ...



Derschowitz is an a professional lawyer and self declared advocate for Israel. Advocates are not interested in the truth, they are paid to advocate the best possible case for their clients, ignoring or supptressing any facts that may harm their client's case.


----------



## JFish123 (Jul 12, 2015)

Challenger said:


> JFish123 said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


You say that, but where's your proof? What did he say that was wrong? Anything... Anything... Bueler? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad never set foot in Israel.
> ...







Niether did Palestine, yet the Koran mentions Israel as the home of the Jews


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 12, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Indeed.

The amateur historian (and sci-fi writer) H.G. Wells once described the people of the region of modern-day Israel as having a Living Room situated in the middle of a busy four-lane highway - constantly being run-over and destroyed and re-built over the centuries.

However, technology, coupled with a return 'home' after a 2000-year-long Scattering, renders Israel more likely to beat the odds and survive for a long time, than any of the predecessor states or overlords of the past few centuries.

Military secrets - and technology - are usually a fleeting advantage - when viewed on the macro level.

Unless one is sufficiently motivated to stay ahead of the curve.

Which the Jews of Israel seem to be.

The answer to the question of their particular survival in that particular region lies in the future.

Nevertheless, if anyone can pull that off, my money is on those Jews.

Speculation based upon recent history and performance and mindset.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 12, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad never set foot in Israel.
> ...



Actually he did you ignoramus.  He calls it the promised land and states that it belongs to the Jews. 

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]


----------



## Roudy (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad never set foot in Israel.
> ...



Actually it is, and Mohammad recognizes that Jerusalem plays for Jews the same role that Mecca does for Muslims.

"...They would not follow thy direction of prayer (qiblah), nor art thou to follow their direction of prayer; nor indeed will they follow each other's direction of prayer..." (5)

 "thy qiblah" [direction of prayer for Muslims] is clearly the Ka'bah of Mecca, while "their qiblah" [direction of prayer for Jews] refers to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Also, 

"Verily, in their prayers Jews orientate themselves toward the Rock (sakhrah), while Christians orientate themselves eastwards..." (6)


----------



## montelatici (Jul 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It is heartwarming that you accept the Qur'an, Mustafa.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

^^^^^
Yes, Achmed MonkeyNazi, your Qu'ran is Zionist.  Not a word about this fictional Palestine or Palestinians.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

JFish123 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > JFish123 said:
> ...



The best demolition job of Derschowitz, I've read is by Professor Norman Finkelstein in "Beyond Chutzpah" where he clearly provides a line by line demonstration that not only is Derschowitz a plagiarist, but deliberately omits any fact or event  that disagrees or contradicts the case he's atempting to make. well worth the read to get a handle on Derschowitz. Beyond Chutzpah On the Misuse of Anti-semitism and the Abuse of History Amazon.co.uk Norman Finkelstein 9781844671496 Books

You don't even have to pay for it http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres11/NFchutzpah.pdf


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Yes, it's beyond chutzpah that even their own Koran gives Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews, yet msulim claim it to belong to Islam.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 13, 2015)

They're just pissed that they lost.

Phukk 'em.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Yes, it's beyond chutzpah that even their own Koran gives Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews, yet msulim claim it to belong to Islam.



and palestinians are pushing this issue before the UN and denying Jerusalem's connection to christianity and judaism.
Jesus taught in the jewish temple.
Mohammed dreamed about a flying horse and a far mosque, never mentioning Jerusalem.

The temple is a historical fact.
A dream has no proof, just a figment of the mind.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it's beyond chutzpah that even their own Koran gives Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews, yet msulim claim it to belong to Islam.
> ...



This is a religious war at its core, has always been will always be. Muslims invaded Israel at some point in time, and now they want it back. An infidel Jew or Christian must never rule over Muslim lands.  Had the one of the many attacks on attacks on Israel succeeded,  there would never be a Palestine or mention of it, as there was none when Jordan and Egypt occupied the West Bank and Gaza for 20 years after 1948.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it's beyond chutzpah that even their own Koran gives Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews, yet msulim claim it to belong to Islam.
> ...






 The furthest mosque ( al aqsa ) was on the road north out of mecca in a little village. The mosque in Jerusalem was not even built until 35 years after mohammeds death


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

It was an expression.  Furthest mosque meaning "far away".  His spirit would naturally have to go to a mosque, so they just used an expression for "not here". Had absolutely nothing to do with Jerusalem, especially since Mohammad had told his followers that it was Jewish land and to turn their backs to it and face Mecca when praying. Did Mohammad want this followers to turn their backs to where his spirit resides?  Obviously not.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> They're just pissed that they lost.
> 
> Phukk 'em.



War's not over yet....


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > They're just pissed that they lost.
> ...


If the war is still underway then perhaps Israel should begin to take mop-up operations more seriously... flushing those squatters and terrorists and insurgents back across the border, so that they can resume their Jordanian citizenship once again.

By the way... If Gaza City 2014 is any indication., the war is not going well for you.

It may be time to rethink your approach after 67 years.

Just sayin'.

"_I suggest a new strategy, R2... let the Wookie win_."


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > They're just pissed that they lost.
> ...



Like someone I once met said, "Some Americans are more Palestinian than the Palestinians."

You and Tinmore will fight to the last Palestinian...from your armchairs. of course.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > They're just pissed that they lost.
> ...


Who's been winning the last 90 years?


----------



## montelatici (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



The Rhodesians were laughing too. For a while.  Now it's called Zimbabwe.

"The overall 'kill ratio' of the security forces was for a long time 9:1, but with the recent influence of guerrillas in larger units that figure has risen tc 15:1. Even so, this statistic is slightly misleading, as it includes Rhodesian casualties caused by land-mines, in road ambushes, amongst troop serving in low-grade defence units, soldiers murdered while on leave, and accidental deaths on duty. It also takes no account of the enormous damage done to guerrillas during raids into Mozambique and Zambia. During Fire Force operations inside Rhodesia the kill ratio is of the order of 60:1, but in one three-month period the company whose activities are described above accounted for over 100 of the enemy. They lost only one man in the process. In cross-border attacks, where the guerrillas are concentrated in large numbers and are largely untrained, the result can be little short of wholesale slaughter. "

Rhodesia Geurilla Warfare a study in military incompetence by Nick Downie


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Wrong comparison, MonkeyNazi.  Here's Hamas animals practicing religious apartheid:

CBN TV - Hamas Leaders Enforce Sharia Law in Gaza Strip

Gaza marathon cancelled by UN after Hamas bans women from participating World news The Guardian


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



So? The Hundred Years War lasted 116 years officially; started out with England conquering most of France, ended up with England in tenuous control of just Calais. To use an Americanism, "it ain't over till the fat lady sings". The war will go on until both sides agree to a just and durable peace, and not before.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



So were the Boers...


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



If you're going to bring Star wars into it, I'll see your "strategy" and raise you "forest Moon of Endor" The Zionists may have all the high tech , but the Imperial Storm troops were trashed by a bunch of cuddly teddy bears armed with spears...


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Wrong comparison, MonkeyNazi.  Here's Hamas animals practicing religious apartheid:
> 
> CBN TV - Hamas Leaders Enforce Sharia Law in Gaza Strip
> 
> Gaza marathon cancelled by UN after Hamas bans women from participating World news The Guardian


Meh, everyone has their Quislings.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



So you admit that the Palestinians do not want peace or coexistence with a Jewish state, and they cannot be trusted as they are in a constant state of war.  Good. Stop whining about blockades or actions Israel takes to defend itself and its citizens from Islamic savages then, Achmed.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong comparison, MonkeyNazi.  Here's Hamas animals practicing religious apartheid:
> ...



Said the quisling for IslamoNazis.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

meet MonkeyNazi's sock, Challenger. 

He thinks he's clever. LOL


----------



## proudveteran06 (Jul 15, 2015)

pbel said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad was a murderous warlord who had sex with children.  He cobbled together elements of other religions in such a way as to create a political manifesto that implored his equally violent followers to perform his bidding.
> ...


 
So what? Ever hear " Actions speak better then words?" Of course not. You are too blinded by your hate and bigotry


----------



## pbel (Jul 15, 2015)

proudveteran06 said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...





proudveteran06 said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...


A person like you who cheers at the death of Muslims is the bigot and the hater...Its really sad how Zionism today has become filled with so many haters that peace may never come...

As far as Jerusalem goes I hope they share it, no Jew or Arab will ever surrender and live to talk about, its too sacred to both religions...


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 15, 2015)

Christians have Rome and Canterbury and Worms.

Muslims have Mecca and Medinah and Istanbul and Alexandria.

Musn't be greedy.

Time for the Jews to have one (again), too.

Jerusalem will do very nicely.

Besides, it's pretty much a done-deal... a fait accompli.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 15, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Christians have Rome and Canterbury and Worms.
> 
> Muslims have Mecca and Medinah and Istanbul and Alexandria.
> 
> ...


 
When I was in my 20's, I stayed for 2 weeks at a youth hostel in the Old City, practically for free.  Waking up to the sound of church bells, the Muslim muezzin and Jewish voices in prayer is something I'll never forget.  I hope you all get there someday, and make it part of your bucket list in Life.


----------



## pbel (Jul 15, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Christians have Rome and Canterbury and Worms.
> ...


Jews, Muslims and Christians all praying together, now that's the old Jerusalem setting an example for the world, we need that again!

Internationalize her!


----------



## Roudy (Jul 15, 2015)

Jews, Muslims and Christians are all praying together because of the environment that Jews have created. Don't forget that.


----------



## theliq (Jul 15, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Jews, Muslims and Christians are all praying together because of the environment that Jews have created. Don't forget that.


See Roudy,you are NOT just one diamentional your use of Reggae Music clearly shows that...here is more for you Jamaican songster Eek-A-Mouse,song in rememberance of how Hitler attempted to eliminate/eradicate the Jews..."Lest We Forget"...www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO-K_FQx1o

Play Loudly.......Respect Roudy..steve


----------



## Roudy (Jul 16, 2015)

theliq said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jews, Muslims and Christians are all praying together because of the environment that Jews have created. Don't forget that.
> ...



Ya man, Eek A Mouse thinks Jews are a race too.  Did you know the core of reggae is based on Zionism and the story of exodus and that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

pbel said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...









 Then where is it mentioned as a sacred site for muslims in the Koran. It is so sacred that they tear out stones from the al aqsa and dome of the rock to use as weapons. This leaves the carbuncles looking derelict and uncared for.


----------



## theliq (Jul 16, 2015)

Roudy said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


I know very well Roudy about Reggae(Mento,Ska,Rock Steady,Reggae,Lovers,Dub etc.,) in all its forms,as I have lived in JA,moreover many years ago I had an hour Radio Show with all things Reggae.

Your suggestion that the core of Reggae is based on ZIONISM, this is not true,Rastafarism is based on ZION (not Zionism)....but the majority of Reggae is based on many things,Love,Slavery,Colonialism,Racism,Injustice and so on.Saying that the Rastas lay much on the Ten Commandment and Mt Zion..and the plight of the Jewish people.....But NOT ZIONISM AT ALL.

Back to the Rasta's they believe in Haillie Salassi.....King of Kings(The Only Black Kingdom in Africa not to be colonized) he was regarded by the Rasta's as the "Lion of Judah".......he was infact a despot and not so good to his people... infact when I told some Rasta's in JA ...that he was a half-caste Despot...they were none too pleased with me...but it was true all the same....... they shared their Dutchie with me and the Pipe which I declined as their strain of Sensi(Dope) was just the Buds of the Plant and very strong,anyway I don't partake of the Herb.

When Peter Tosh came to Perth,the concert was booked out months before,he looked amazing in a flowing cream robe and a Tam(hat)and size 16 shoe.......he pulled out the biggest spliff I have ever seen and lit it......within seconds he was immersed  in Herb-Smoke and so were the audience....it was a great but mellow night.....LOL...steve......Jah Rastafari
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FGKEQRkXMI..........
Rasta Music was first recorded by Ras Michael(Michael George Henry approx., 74 years old,still touring today) and the Sons of Negus.in 1964..very basic Drum and Bass..........Many Jamaicans converted to Rastafarism including Bob Marley(Robert Nesta Marley) and thousands of other singers and musicians.......steve


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

pbel said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...









 It already is, and the muslims decided that they would take it and destroy all traces of non muslim traces. The UN should have stepped in right then and wiped the muslims out. Then we would not have so much killing and rape in this world.


----------



## theliq (Jul 16, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


What about Rape!!! in the UK,America,Israel and Australia an all, to mention a few others.....Should were wipe out all of them too ???????


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...








 In one small town in the north of England over 1,000 underage girls were raped by a gang of muslim men. Do you need any more evidence of who is the worst offenders for mass murder, violence and rape ?


----------



## theliq (Jul 16, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


I read that Phoney and appaulling it was.........but how many rapes per year in the UK ?steve


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...







 reported rapes are on the increase since the neo Marxist government was voted out of power, but under them the police were told to disregard many rapes as they would cause racial tensions. But the numbers of children raped by muslim gangs has increased year on year until they were arrested and charged with the offences. But in the last 7 years the numbers of reported child rape cases has peaked at many tens of thousands per annum until the police rode into islamville and started to arrest the ring leaders


----------

