# Illegal Immigration and the Mortgage Meltdown



## Vel

Is it just a coincidence that the areas that have huge illegal populations are also the counties that contribute so heavily to the forclosure numbers? Make sure to check out the map in the article.


Most foreclosures pack into a few counties 
By Brad Heath, USA TODAY


A few of the 35 counties leading the foreclosure boom are in already-distressed areas around Detroit and Cleveland. But most are clustered in places such as Southern California, Las Vegas, Phoenix, South Florida and Washington, where home values shot up dramatically in the first half of the decade, then began to crumble.




Most foreclosures pack into a few counties - USATODAY.com


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## Agent of Chaos

Most foreclosures pack into a few counties - USATODAY.com
The worst-hit counties are home to about 20% of U.S. households, but accounted for just over 50% of the nation's foreclosure actions last year, driving most of the national increase. And even among those places, a few stand out: Eight counties in Arizona, California, Florida and Nevada were the source of about a quarter of the nation's foreclosures last year.

Now cross reference that map with these maps.
immigrationroad.com/resource/illegal-immigrants-by-state.php

images.businessweek.com/ss/05/07/immigration_map/index_01.htm


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## editec

> Is it just a coincidence that the areas that have huge illegal populations are also the counties that contribute so heavily to the forclosure numbers? Make sure to check out the map in the article.


 
No it's not.  The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.

As did the builders to build homes, and the mortgage originating banks which sold people mortgages.

Now if you could quantify the NINA loans and show us that the illegal aliens were the holders of those toxic debts, that might make that point for you that I believe you are attempting to make.

Can you?


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## Truthmatters

Heres the deal, Housing starts will tell you the story.

The places where the housing industry was booming is where the subprime was worst. Investment buyers would drive up the costs of housing in "hot" areas where they could not build fast enough to sell the houses. People would wait months for their houses to be finished because they bought them well before the projects were done because they demand was so strong. 

Guess who they would hire to do the bulk of the work because they would work for so little money?

Now why did the Bush government never police the industry to make sure they were not hiring illegals?


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## Valerie

Don't forget it only takes less than half as many jumbo loan defaults to equal the same amount of bad debt.  All sorts of people reached beyond their means, not just the poor.



> *    * JANUARY 28, 2009
> 
> Banks and Investors Face 'Jumbo' Threat
> *
> 
> Rising defaults by affluent homeowners are raising the specter of another cloud over banks and investors, which could get stuck with thousands of expensive homes.
> 
> About 6.9% of prime "jumbo" loans were at least 90 days delinquent in December, according to LPS Applied Analytics, a mortgage-data research firm. The rate was up sharply from 2.6% a year earlier. In comparison, delinquencies of non-jumbo prime loans that qualify for backing by government agencies climbed to 2.1% from 0.8% in December 2007.
> 
> *Jumbo mortgages average about $750,000 and can run as high as $5 million or more. More borrowers with such loans are being hit by layoffs that are spreading through practically every sector and pay level of the U.S. economy.
> 
> On Tuesday, the Labor Department reported that the jobless rate rose in December in all 50 states, hitting at least 10% in Michigan and Rhode Island. States that suffered the biggest jumps in unemployment in the past year include California and Florida, where the largest number of jumbo loans were made.*
> 
> 
> Banks and Investors Face 'Jumbo' Threat - WSJ.com


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## Valerie

From the same article:



> *From 2002 to 2006, banks originated an average of $557 billion a year in jumbo loans, according to Inside Mortgage Finance, a trade publication. About 40% of the total was sold to investors as securities *


Banks and Investors Face 'Jumbo' Threat - WSJ.com


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## editec

Yeah, as much as I understand that a lot of us would dearly love to pin this mess on illegal immigants, to date nobody has shown us any evidence that their assertions have any validity.


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## Valerie

editec said:


> Yeah, as much as I understand that a lot of us would dearly love to pin this mess on illegal immigants, to date nobody has shown us any evidence that their assertions have any validity.



Yes, it's sad the way things get twisted around and the perception becomes the reality.

As much as I agree illegal immigrants are a problem and anyone who squatted on their mortgage has contributed to our financial troubles, SOMEONE gave them that money for those bad loans they couldn't afford.  No down payment, no problem.  No income, no problem.  No citizenship, no problem.  The predatory lenders simply DID NOT CARE.  They took their piece of the pie and looked the other way.  So now it's the poor people, who still have next to nothing, who stole all the money?  I don't think so.


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## Terral

Hi Editec:

Editec is missing the point of the Opening Post, or he is deliberately acting stupid . . . 



editec said:


> Is it just a coincidence that the areas that have huge illegal populations are also the counties that contribute so heavily to the foreclosure numbers? Make sure to check out the map in the article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not.  The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.
Click to expand...


We are talking about high concentrations of *&#8220;Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals&#8221;* sneaking in through the &#8216;back door&#8217; in the middle of the night to steal identities and JOBS from law-abiding U.S. Citizens. These Illegal Aliens gravitate to the locations *where they &#8216;can&#8217; secure safe harbor* among their relatives in highly-concentrated Hispanic neighborhoods. These people do not &#8216;find&#8217; work, but they are invited to join the party by *other Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* already here illegally and already &#8216;displacing&#8217; U.S. workers. The contractor tells Paco to bring Juan and Carlos (Illegal Aliens) to fill the jobs vacated by Bob and Joe (Americans), so the contractor can get rid of his expensive Americans and get two Illegal Aliens for less than half the price. 



editec said:


> As did the builders to build homes, and the mortgage originating banks which sold people mortgages.
> 
> Now if you could quantify the NINA loans and show us that the illegal aliens were the holders of those toxic debts, that might make that point for you that I believe you are attempting to make.
> 
> Can you?



More nonsense! The *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* are living 10 and 20 in one house! The people going into foreclosure are *Bob and Joe and every &#8216;legal&#8217; U.S. worker being &#8216;displaced&#8217; out of the local job market* by all the *GD Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals *running around loose EVERYWHERE. The largest &#8216;Hispanic&#8217; population areas are in the Southwestern USA &#8216;and&#8217; the Southeast where I can tell you for A FACT that *we have FAR too many Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals running around EVERYWHERE*; which is exactly what the USA Today picture shows in the Opening Post link. Another map showing the foreclosures looks something like this (pic):

Click on the pic to realize that the *USA Today schematic is very incomplete* and that Ohio, Tennessee and North Carolina are also showing a steady escalation of foreclosures. The difference is that the Ohio, Michigan and Indiana problem has more to do with NAFTA and the exporting our the USA manufacturing base, while the rest of the map can show us where *high concentrations of Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are displacing law-abiding U.S. workers from JOBS*; along with *too much Outsourcing*. 

If you look over to the *Southwestern side of the equation*, then you see that the monstrous problem is expanding to Nevada, Arizona and parts north of California, as the *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* are steadily but surely expanding the* Illegal Alien Invasion* to include more and more western states. 

Are you done looking at the 2007 foreclosure rates map? Great! Now open up* the 2008 map* here and note the difference. Now imagine what 2009 is going to look like if *Senor Obama and our idiot Congress *refuse to *'enforce'* the provisions of the *"Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986"* (Wiki) and perfectly good Immigration/Employment Laws already on the books . . . 

This massive problem facing our once-great nation is about to become the very reason that We The People engage in the coming *New Revolutionary War* now on the horizon. I want *no* Illegal Alien Foreign National heads on sticks (not their fault nobody is 'enforcing' the Law around here), but *every member of Congress* and *the Obama Administration* will be the first in line . . . 

GL,

Terral


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## William Joyce

editec said:


> No it's not.  The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.
> 
> As did the builders to build homes, and the mortgage originating banks which sold people mortgages.
> 
> Now if you could quantify the NINA loans and show us that the illegal aliens were the holders of those toxic debts, that might make that point for you that I believe you are attempting to make.
> 
> Can you?



Yep.

VDARE.com: 03/01/09 - Minority Mortgage Meltdown (contd.) Pay No Attention To That Diversity Mandate Behind The Curtain

Just no question that minority/illegal loans caused the mortgage meltdown.  No question at all.  It was Bush's pet.  Even the NYT had to admit this:


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## Valerie

> * Saturday, 03.07.09
> BY ALFONSO CHARDY
> achardy@MiamiHerald.com
> 
> *Illegal immigrants going home, and local labor market at risk
> *
> Malaquías Gaspar left his farm village in southern Mexico when the economy soured in the mid-1990s. He headed north illegally and found the proverbial better opportunity in South Florida, where he made a decent living by picking fruit and building homes.
> 
> But the U.S. economic crisis has disrupted his life and the lives of countless other illegal immigrants who are now planning to leave or have already left.
> 
> Gaspar is among millions of undocumented immigrants facing new challenges brought on by slim prospects for legalization, more aggressive federal enforcement and a worsening economy.


Illegal immigrants going home, and local labor market at risk - Front Page - MiamiHerald.com


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## William Joyce

Occidental Observer

_For weeks, writers like Steve Sailer and Ann Coulter have been pointing out that the economic crisis was likely caused, in large part, by the massive drive to give mortgage loans to blacks and Hispanics. 

The reaction was easy to predict: Loony right-wingers and racists want to "scapegoat" minorities for economic problems that are really the fault of greedy whites. 

But those critics are going to find it harder to dismiss the latest outlet for that observation:  The New York Times.  In a lengthy and wide-ranging Sunday piece, the paper puts the minority-loan angle up high, with a front-page photo and the caption, "In June 2002, President Bush spoke in Atlanta to unveil a plan to increase minority homeownership." 

An inside photo shows a proud Bush touring a new development in heavily-black Atlanta, presumably staged to show what a Great White Father he is.  One sentence in the story began, "He pushed hard to expand homeownership, especially among minorities, an initiative that dovetailed with his ambition to expand the Republican tent &#8212; and with the business interests of some of his biggest donors." _

Happiness is shoving it in a liberal's face with information from the NYT.


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## Valerie

William Joyce said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not.  The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.
> 
> As did the builders to build homes, and the mortgage originating banks which sold people mortgages.
> 
> Now if you could quantify the NINA loans and show us that the illegal aliens were the holders of those toxic debts, that might make that point for you that I believe you are attempting to make.
> 
> Can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> VDARE.com: 03/01/09 - Minority Mortgage Meltdown (contd.) Pay No Attention To That Diversity Mandate Behind The Curtain
> 
> Just no question that minority/illegal loans caused the mortgage meltdown.  No question at all.  It was Bush's pet.  Even the NYT had to admit this:
Click to expand...


No doubt, as the OP shows, cities and towns are severely affected by the sheer number of home foreclosure despite the comparative dollar value of the loans.


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## Terral

Hi Valerie:



> * Saturday, 03.07.09
> BY ALFONSO CHARDY
> achardy@MiamiHerald.com
> 
> *Illegal immigrants going home, and local labor market at risk
> *
> Malaquías Gaspar left his farm village in southern Mexico when the economy soured in the mid-1990s. He headed north illegally and found the proverbial better opportunity in South Florida, where he made a decent living by picking fruit and building homes.
> 
> But the U.S. economic crisis has disrupted his life and the lives of countless other illegal immigrants who are now planning to leave or have already left.
> 
> Gaspar is among millions of undocumented immigrants facing new challenges brought on by slim prospects for legalization, more aggressive federal enforcement and a worsening economy.



Please allow me to fill in the blanks between the point being made in Valerie&#8217;s story &#8216;and&#8217; the truth about what goes on here in my home state of Florida where I am a sixth-generation Floridian swimming in a literal sea of Illegal Alien humanity:

The point of Valerie&#8217;s article is that *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* (I cannot call them &#8216;immigrants&#8217; = they come here &#8216;legally&#8217 going home is somehow *putting the &#8216;local labor market at risk.&#8217;* Some uninformed Americans are actually deceived into believing that &#8216;We need Illegal Aliens,&#8217; because *the &#8216;law-abiding U.S. workers&#8217; have already been DISPLACED from the local job markets!* The local employers cause MASSIVE &#8216;displacement&#8217; of legal U.S. workers &#8216;out&#8217; of the local job markets by hiring too many Illegal Aliens hand over fist. So, when someone actually comes along to begin &#8216;enforcing&#8217; the Immigration Laws, THEN *a &#8216;worker vacuum&#8217; is created* by the depressed wages handed out as peanuts to Illegal Aliens and &#8216;legal&#8217; U.S. workers have already moved elsewhere. 

These same unscrupulous growers and builders who hired Malaquias Gaspar and all of his *Illegal Alien Foreign National buddies* are &#8216;known&#8217; by local Florida workers for hiring Illegal Aliens, so now they are wary to work for somebody so quick to saw off their heads. These same unscrupulous employers then whine like babies that *&#8220;We Need These Illegal Aliens!!!,&#8221;* because they have lost all credibility with *the &#8216;legal&#8217; U.S. workers* in the area where this cartoon character *created this &#8216;labor shortage problem&#8217;* all on his very own. Every local job market has only so many JOBS to fill, which means *&#8216;legal&#8217; U.S. Citizens must move out of local markets* where the employers are *hiring too many Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals.* At some point, *the &#8216;consumer base&#8217; is destroyed* in this local job market, because too many employers are hiring *too many Illegal Aliens* (Florida has between 1 and 2 million Illegals), which means *fewer and fewer &#8216;law-abiding&#8217; citizens &#8216;can&#8217; afford to buy goods and services* inside that local market. Then the local economy suffers (like we are seeing now) and the grower and builder must let the Illegal Alien&#8217;s go over *the lack of local economic activity* that *'they caused' *in the first place. 

*Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals going home* is really great news for the local economy, because eventually *&#8216;real law-abiding&#8217; U.S. workers* will move back in to fill the jobs; but only after the employer raises the price to become *a &#8216;real living wage&#8217; *that he should have been paying all along. NEVER listen to unscrupulous employers whining about how* we need Illegal Aliens!* Those are the people who want to pay out peanuts to Illegal Aliens and *not a &#8216;living wage&#8217; to real U.S. workers*, so they can keep a bigger slice of the pie for themselves.

GL,

Terral


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## editec

Terral said:


> Hi Editec:
> 
> Editec is missing the point of the Opening Post, or he is deliberately acting stupid . . .


 
Hi Terral:

That or editec understands that *correlation doesn't prove causation --* something that you apparently don't yet fully understand.



editec said:


> Is it just a coincidence that the areas that have huge illegal populations are also the counties that contribute so heavily to the foreclosure numbers? Make sure to check out the map in the article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not. The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.
Click to expand...

 


> We are talking about high concentrations of *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* sneaking in through the back door in the middle of the night to steal identities and JOBS from law-abiding U.S. Citizens.


 
Yes, we are. And I am as angry about our government's master class (of both parties, just in case you haven't yet noticed that) failing to do anything REAL about it.  

I am  probably angrier about it than you are.  I believe that our masters are ALLOWING this because of classism, and because of greed, in exactly the same way they have ignored the pernicious effects of free trade; just as they have put the burden of taxation on the working classes and given themselves enormous tax breaks.





> These Illegal Aliens gravitate to the locations *where they can secure safe harbor* among their relatives in highly-concentrated Hispanic neighborhoods. These people do not find work, but they are invited to join the party by *other Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* already here illegally and already displacing U.S. workers. The contractor tells Paco to bring Juan and Carlos (Illegal Aliens) to fill the jobs vacated by Bob and Joe (Americans), so the contractor can get rid of his expensive Americans and get two Illegal Aliens for less than half the price.


 
Yeah, so? 

What does the above have to do with making your (implied by your rhetorical question) point?  Nothing.



editec said:


> As did the builders to build homes, and the mortgage originating banks which sold people mortgages.
> 
> Now, if you could quantify the NINA loans and show us that the illegal aliens were the holders of those toxic debts, that might make that point for you that I believe you are attempting to make.
> 
> Can you?


 


> More nonsense! The *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* are living 10 and 20 in one house!


!


Yeah, so? How does the above way support your argument? 





> The people going into foreclosure are *Bob and Joe and every legal U.S. worker being displaced out of the local job market* by all the *GD Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals *running around loose EVERYWHERE.


 
OH, okay, now you're finally making a point that might be germane to your supposition.

Yes, certainly illegal aliens are putting a terrible (I think criminal) strain on the working classes. It's infuriating, isn't it?

If you could* quantify the number* of Americans who, thanks to having lost employment due to illegals, were losing their homes, you'd be making a VERY POWERFUL argument to support you original position.

thus far all you are doing is explaining to us how angry you are that our goverment is allowing this to happen.

Most of us -- and certainly I am sympathetic with your anger




> The largest Hispanic population areas are in the Southwestern USA and the Southeast where I can tell you for A FACT that *we have FAR too many Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals running around EVERYWHERE*;


 
Are you deluded enough to think I doubt that? 

I was shocked when I return to my home state, Pennsylvania, to discover that those towns which were formerly mostly long time Americans of European origins where populated by enormous numbers of Hatians and Dominicans and Mexicans and so forth, too. 

And that's PENNSYLVANIA, champ, not exactly a hop, skip and swim across a border from any of those foreign lands.




> Click on the pic to realize that the *USA Today schematic is very incomplete* and that Ohio, Tennessee and North Carolina are also showing a steady escalation of foreclosures. The difference is that the Ohio, Michigan and Indiana problem has more to do with NAFTA and the exporting our the USA manufacturing base, while the rest of the map can show us where *high concentrations of Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are displacing law-abiding U.S. workers from JOBS*; along with *too much Outsourcing*.


 
Yes, I saw the map. I understood your point. 

What you apparently are continuing to understand is that I am also explaining to you how to cobble together a LOGICAL ARGUMENT to support you contention....which you are not doing NOW!

You see my doing so as an insult to you.  You ought to be thanking me for attempting to school you on how to make your argument more effectively powerful to those of us who can _think logically._





> If you look over to the *Southwestern side of the equation*, then you see that the monstrous problem is expanding to Nevada, Arizona and parts north of California, as the *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* are steadily but surely expanding the* Illegal Alien Invasion* to include more and more western states.


 
All probably very true, and all of it alarming, too. Not germane to your original point though.



> Are you done looking at the 2007 foreclosure rates map? Great! Now open up* the 2008 map* here and note the difference.


 
The difference is the first map gives us less information about this problem than the second one. 

Ironically both maps point us in the direction which your original post wanted us to go, but neither provides us with the HARD DATA that would *prove* your point.





> Now imagine what 2009 is going to look like if *Senor Obama and our idiot Congress *refuse to *'enforce'* the provisions of the *"Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986"* (Wiki) and perfectly good Immigration/Employment Laws already on the books . . .


 

You're under the impression that I am not annoyed by both parties allowing illegals to live here, aren't you? 

Your ire, and the presumtive way you're attemtping to prove to me that illegals are not a good thing for this nation suggests that you are.

Well...you're wrong. I'm as incensed about this issue as you are. 



> This massive problem facing our once-great nation is about to become the very reason that We The People engage in the coming *New Revolutionary War* now on the horizon.


 
Sadly, the war that we might have _now_ won't be a revolutionary war.

If anything, it will be another CIVIL war. 

I WISH for a revolution *of the people, by the people and for the people* no less than you.

A *new constitutional convention* would be the way I would conduct it, were I in the position to make it happen.

So while my revolution might look slightly different than yours, but as to your point that* revolutionary THINKING* is needed, you and I are on the same page. 



> I want *no* Illegal Alien Foreign National heads on sticks (not their fault nobody is 'enforcing' the Law around here), but *every member of Congress* and *the Obama Administration* will be the first in line . . .
> 
> GL,
> 
> Terral


 
Ah! youth! 

How I wish I still had your confidence that the American people were ready willing and able to throw off the yoke of our oppressive system.

I used to think that revolution was emminent, too.

Now I realize that that isn't possible until things are SO BAD, that most people like you and I are truly destitute.

It takes a LOT before people are ready to revolt, amigo.

Inertia is a very powerful social force for the status quo.

there is always that 5 or 15% of us who see through the haze of misinformation enough to know things need to be changed, but most people are happier not thinking about this sort of thing at all.


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## Terral

Hi Editec:



editec said:


> That or editec understands that *correlation doesn't prove causation --* something that you apparently don't yet fully understand.



Please forgive, but I understand completely. These *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE HERE.* Period. Unscrupulous U.S. &#8216;employers&#8217; are using the *20-million-man Illegal Alien Foreign National Labor Pool* to deliberately *&#8216;pick around&#8217; Law-abiding U.S. Workers* to increase *&#8216;their bottom line.&#8217;* I understand that Editec is playing word games to justify continued Lawlessness . . . 



editec said:


> No it's not. The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.


 
Immigrants? We are talking about *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* as in *citizens of OTHER COUNTRIES.* Right? Stop playing word games as if Editec is addressing a fool. These *Illegal Aliens still DO NOT BELONG inside the U.S. borders.* Right? The *&#8216;immigrants&#8217;* are those coming to the USA through *the &#8216;front door&#8217; legally* . . . 



editec said:


> Yes, we are. And I am as angry about our government's master class (of both parties, just in case you haven't yet noticed that) failing to do anything REAL about it.



All I hear out of your mouth is *insulting Open Borders Lobby Propaganda . . . * 



editec said:


> I am  probably angrier about it than you are.



Impossible . . .  



editec said:


> I believe that our masters are ALLOWING this because of classism, and because of greed, in exactly the same way they have ignored the pernicious effects of free trade; just as they have put the burden of taxation on the working classes and given themselves enormous tax breaks.



Classism? Please. *The USA is being INVADED by Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals from all over God&#8217;s Green Earth* and you are sitting here talking about Classism! We have *New World Order cronies* and *Open Border Lobby idiots* bribing our U.S. Congressmen and Senators representing *the most corrupt governmental Legislative Body these United States have ever seen*. The reason your Classism hypothesis has no merit is because the *&#8216;haves&#8217; *are the very people about to wake up to the big fat surprise of the *&#8216;have nots&#8217;* breaking down their doors to appropriate whatever they wish. Therefore, *the upper &#8216;class&#8217;* that you want to give credit for *the current Illegal Alien Invasion* is nothing more than *DUPES* cuckoo working every day towards *their own eventual demise*. 



editec said:


> Terral Original >> These Illegal Aliens gravitate to the locations *where they &#8216;can&#8217; secure safe harbor* among their relatives in highly-concentrated Hispanic neighborhoods. These people do not &#8216;find&#8217; work, but they are invited to join the party by* other Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* already here illegally and already &#8216;displacing&#8217; U.S. workers. The contractor tells Paco to bring Juan and Carlos (Illegal Aliens) to fill the jobs vacated by Bob and Joe (Americans), so the contractor can get rid of his expensive Americans and get two Illegal Aliens for less than half the price.
> 
> Editec&#8217;s Reply >> What does the above have to do with making your (implied by your rhetorical question) point?  Nothing.



Nothing? :0) There is *a GIGANTIC correlation* between *&#8220;Illegal Alien Foreign National Populations&#8221;* and *U.S. workers going into mortgage foreclosure!* Period! Illegal Aliens have an easy time of finding *&#8216;safe harbor&#8217; among other Illegal Aliens and their families already here* in the USA. And I am not asking any questions . . . 



editec said:


> Terral Original >> More nonsense! The *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* are living 10 and 20 in one house!
> 
> Editec&#8217;s Reply >> Yeah, so? How does the above way support your argument?



These are your original statements:



editec said:


> Is it just a coincidence that the areas that have huge illegal populations are also the counties that contribute so heavily to the forclosure numbers? Make sure to check out the map in the article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not.  The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.
> 
> As did the builders to build homes, and the mortgage originating banks which sold people mortgages.
> 
> Now *if you could quantify the NINA loans and show us that the illegal aliens were the holders of those toxic debts*, that might make that point for you that I believe you are attempting to make.
> 
> Can you?
Click to expand...

 
Editec is playing his silly games. Illegal Aliens are not the holders of the toxic debts, unless American banks are guilty of handing out loans to *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* that are *not supposed to be here.* In that case, the evidence is pointing that way too (story). The OP hypothesis (and my argument) is that *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are &#8216;displacing&#8217; U.S. Workers from JOBS*, which causes *U.S. Workers* to go into foreclosure having NOTHING to do with Illegal Aliens holding any toxic debts. Then we must realize that *'renters' are far more exposed to 'worker displacement' than homeowners,* because *Illegal Aliens generally 'displace' workers on the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder.* Therefore, the number of mortgage foreclosures nationwide is only *a barometer on how bad things really are for the renters being evicted* (displaced renters article here) from rental properties. This guy is asking for evidence to support the OP thesis that is *very much self-evident* with California, Nevada, New Mexico and Florida leading the USA in foreclosures, which just happens to be where *the highest concentration of Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* are hiding in plain sight EVERYWHERE. 

California has the *highest concentration of Illegal Aliens* (story). 

California has the *highest number of mortgage foreclosures* (story). Do the math . . . 



editec said:


> OH, okay, now you're finally making a point that might be germane to your supposition.
> 
> Yes, certainly illegal aliens are putting a terrible (I think criminal) strain on the working classes. It's infuriating, isn't it?



Lordy . . . 

GL,

Terral


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## catzmeow

Valerie said:


> *Gaspar is among millions of undocumented immigrants facing new challenges brought on by slim prospects for legalization, more aggressive federal enforcement and a worsening economy.
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal immigrants going home, and local labor market at risk - Front Page - MiamiHerald.com
Click to expand...


Maybe something good will come out of this mess.  The only downside of this is the worsening U.S. economy.


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## manu1959

Truthmatters said:


> Heres the deal, Housing starts will tell you the story.
> 
> The places where the housing industry was booming is where the subprime was worst. Investment buyers would drive up the costs of housing in "hot" areas where they could not build fast enough to sell the houses. People would wait months for their houses to be finished because they bought them well before the projects were done because they demand was so strong.
> 
> Guess who they would hire to do the bulk of the work because they would work for so little money?
> 
> *Now why did the Bush government never police the industry to make sure they were not hiring illegals*?



for the same reason clinton didn't and obama won't.......


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## jjjsssf

$3.10 for an automatic knife with free shipping, now thats cheap how about the 
buck 110 auto? Do they still make that thing here in the states? I think they were being converted into autos out west. Nice 
knife, these guys also have a copy of a Buck 110 auto.


----------



## AssHatZombie

Terral is totally right.  Degrading the standard of living of the labor force is not "business innovation".  It's exploitation of a dysfunctional state to our south.  it provides SHORT TERM corporate profits to the detriment of american workers, and the long term economic activity of american society.


----------



## Toro

Poor people, brown people, black people, white trash people, et. al. did not cause the subprime crisis, nor the foreclosure mess, nor the economic meltdown.

You can yack and yack and yack all day to reaffirm your confirmation bias based on your political affiliations or pre-conceived notions, but there is zero, zip, nada empirical evidence to support this view.  In fact, the studies have shown exactly the opposite.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/70006-cra-not-to-blame-for-housing-debacle.html


----------



## Terral

Hi Toro:

  I do believe that Toro is missing the point . . . again . . .



Toro said:


> Poor people, brown people, black people, white trash people, et. al. did not cause the subprime crisis, nor the foreclosure mess, nor the economic meltdown.


 
  We are talking about *Illegal Immigration* as *a contributing factor* to the *Mortgage/Foreclosure Crisis* destroying house prices more and more with every passing day. Obviously there is more than *&#8216;one cause&#8217; *(I can think of at least 455 causes) of the current *U.S. Economy Implosion* taking place right before our eyes, which includes *too much Outsourcing* (story) and the overuse of *23 Guest Worker Programs* dragging *1.5 Million Foreign Nationals* into the USA every year to *&#8216;displace&#8217; US workers from JOBS* (link = see &#8220;It&#8217;s the guest workers, stupid&#8221. *Millions* of our Illegal Aliens are *Guest Workers* who simply decide to join the millions and millions and millions of Illegal Aliens who came here in the middle of the night through the back door, because nobody is trying to track them down anyway. 



Toro said:


> You can yack and yack and yack all day to reaffirm your confirmation bias based on your political affiliations or pre-conceived notions, but there is zero, zip, nada empirical evidence to support this view. In fact, the studies have shown exactly the opposite.


 
  When the Gov&#8217;t allows *too much Outsourcing of JOBS* &#8216;out&#8217; of the country and *too many Foreign Nationals* &#8216;into&#8217; the country (legal and illegal), then *wages go down* for all workers and the *&#8220;Consumer Base&#8221; is destroyed* and there are fewer and fewer *&#8216;customers&#8217; to buy your products* here at home. *Worker &#8216;displacement&#8217; *(Govt website) represents *an insidious &#8216;cycle&#8217;* where *one Illegal Alien* &#8216;displaces&#8217;* one legal U.S. worker* who then goes out and &#8216;displaces&#8217; *another legal U.S. worker*, so he goes out and &#8216;displaces&#8217; *yet another legal U.S. worker* until everyone working with his hands is playing musical chairs and nobody has a job. The reason is that the displacement cycle created by *millions and millions and millions of legal and Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* destroys the base of the socioeconomic pyramid to *then destroy the service sector jobs *in a *&#8216;contracting&#8217; economy* that eventually *&#8216;IMPLODES.&#8217; *

  Home prices spiral downward, because *too many &#8216;buyers&#8217;* have been *displaced *from equation and *distressed houses* begin flooding the market to *destroy the value of &#8216;all&#8217; the houses in the housing market*. Then the banks get stuck holding the *'bad paper bag,'* because the Government did *NOTHING* to protect *the JOBS of their mortgage customers.* Then *AIG* gets caught holding the *bad insurance policies on the bad mortgages* and the Govt ends up owning 80 percent of that catastrophe, because We The People are getting robbed twice. Then the  Govt must bail the banks out amid *catastrophic devaluation of their mortgage-backed security portfolios* to stand *a band of liars* in front of the TV cameras every night to delude you into thinking everything is going to be okay; when in reality the *U.S. Economy is going to hell in a hand basket* and the retards in the bought-and-paid-for U.S. Congress represent the biggest part of the cotton-picking problem . . . 

GL, 


Terral


----------



## Toro

Well, that's all well and nice, except that it is flat out wrong.

Consumption never dropped during the housing bubble, and has only declined over the past seven months as the housing market collapsed.  So worker displacement is a bogus and an economically unsound argument.

It is also bogus because the employment ratio was near all-time highs until the housing bubble collapsed.  Even with all the illegal immigration, the percentage of the population employed was only surpassed during the tech bubble.  

The financial crisis has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration.  It is a theory propagated by the xenophobic and the ignorant.


----------



## AssHatZombie

Toro said:


> Well, that's all well and nice, except that it is flat out wrong.
> 
> Consumption never dropped during the housing bubble, and has only declined over the past seven months as the housing market collapsed.  So worker displacement is a bogus and an economically unsound argument.
> 
> It is also bogus because the employment ratio was near all-time highs until the housing bubble collapsed.  Even with all the illegal immigration, the percentage of the population employed was only surpassed during the tech bubble.
> 
> The financial crisis has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration.  It is a theory propagated by the xenophobic and the ignorant.



Illegal immigration is an ongoing problem, true.  It existed before the meltdown.  Immigration drives down wages.  Businesses like it because it increases short term profits.  But long term, it degrades our entire nation.


----------



## Toro

AssHatZombie said:


> Illegal immigration is an ongoing problem, true.  It existed before the meltdown.  Immigration drives down wages.  Businesses like it because it increases short term profits.  But long term, it degrades our entire nation.



That is another issue altogether.  However, immigrants - legal or illegal - had little to do with the housing bubble and collapse.


----------



## AssHatZombie

Toro said:


> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal immigration is an ongoing problem, true.  It existed before the meltdown.  Immigration drives down wages.  Businesses like it because it increases short term profits.  But long term, it degrades our entire nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is another issue altogether.  However, immigrants - legal or illegal - had little to do with the housing bubble and collapse.
Click to expand...



But it has to do with recovery for the middle class. We don't need immigrants driving wages down.  Accept the popular opinion.


----------



## Toro

AssHatZombie said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal immigration is an ongoing problem, true.  It existed before the meltdown.  Immigration drives down wages.  Businesses like it because it increases short term profits.  But long term, it degrades our entire nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is another issue altogether.  However, immigrants - legal or illegal - had little to do with the housing bubble and collapse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> But it has to do with recovery for the middle class. We don't need immigrants driving wages down.  Accept the popular opinion.
Click to expand...


The middle class is not being driven down by illegal immigrants.

You may not have noticed, but illegal immigrants are not taking white collar jobs.  They're doing all the shitty jobs most Americans don't want.  And even if Americans want them, the jobs are for $7 an hour.  This has nothing to do with the middle class.  It is merely scapegoating.


----------



## Terral

Hi Toro and AssHat:



Toro said:


> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is another issue altogether. However, immigrants - legal or illegal - had little to do with the housing bubble and collapse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it has to do with recovery for the middle class. We don't need immigrants driving wages down. Accept the popular opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The middle class is not being driven down by illegal immigrants.
Click to expand...

 
Toro is showing everyone why the USA is worthy of being destroyed, because of Loyal Bushie Open Borders Propaganda just like we see in his few words on this important topic. Again, there is no such thing as an &#8216;illegal immigrant&#8217; anywhere in the USA. The &#8216;immigrants&#8217; are represented by our fellow Americans who come here THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR. The USA allows (stupidly) more &#8216;legal&#8217; immigration into the USA every year than ALL OF THE OTHER COUNTRIES ON EARTH COMBINED. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with &#8216;legal&#8217; immigrants at all, but ILLEGAL Alien Foreign Nationals who violate our Laws and come here in the middle of the night through the BACK DOOR to steal US identities and JOBS. The facts are that twenty five US citizens are killed EVERY DAY by Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals (12 by murder) who are NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE HERE.  Illegal Aliens DO drive wages down for US workers!

Seattlepo.com/business



> *Immigrants drive wages in U.S. lower, study says*
> 
> By TYCHE HENDRICKS
> SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
> 
> The presence of immigrants in the American work force has *pushed wages down for U.S.-born workers*, particularly those without a high school education, according to a recent study by a Harvard economist. But other analysts say the evidence is not so clear cut.
> 
> *African American and Hispanic workers have been especially hard hit by competition with immigrant workers*, said George Borjas, whose findings were published in a report by the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington, D.C., group that favors stricter limits on immigration.
> 
> "There are 16 million foreign-born workers in the United States right now," Borjas said. "What does that do to the marketplace? *It creates more competition, particularly for low-skilled workers.*"





Toro said:


> You may not have noticed, but illegal immigrants are not taking white collar jobs.


 
What kind of nonsense is this?? Those among us &#8216;with a brain&#8217; understand that a majority of people are *&#8216;two dimensional thinkers&#8217;* and some people are fortunate enough to be *&#8216;three dimensional thinkers&#8217;* (story), but then some of us are *not thinking at all*. The downside of allowing millions and millions and millions of *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* to run around loose inside your borders affects every worker within the local job market whether you ever realize that fact or not. 

LaywersAndSettlements.com




> *[FONT=&quot]Hiring Of Illegal Immigrants Brings Down Wages
> 
> [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]When companies hire large numbers of illegal immigrants, this can have the effect of *bringing down wages for employees who are legally authorized to be employed in the country*. The practice of knowingly hiring illegal immigrants is also illegal, and when it is done in a systematic, large-scale way, it can also violate the Racketeer Influence and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly known as RICO.[/FONT]


Two dimensional thinkers look at the surface of the waters and pretend within themselves that everything down to the bottom of the ocean looks the same, when actually another *10,000 U.S. workers/families* are going into foreclosure *EVERY DAY* (link). Another *600,000 U.S. workers* are standing in the unemployment line *every month* (story) and many of those people are *white-collar workers &#8216;displaced&#8217; from JOBS* from the *&#8216;customer base&#8217; being destroyed from the local job market*. Worker *&#8216;displacement&#8217;* (link) represents an insidious repeating cycle that runs from the very foundation of the socioeconomic pyramid (those working with their hands) up the walls and through ALL levels to even the very top, because *your &#8216;customers&#8217;* are being *systematically &#8216;displaced&#8217; *from the ability to &#8216;afford&#8217; your professional goods and services. The perfect example of white-collar jobs LOST through *local job market &#8216;displacement&#8217;* is seen in General Motors workers laid off from decreasing demand for new cars and trucks. 

 MichiganMessenger.com




> *[FONT=&quot]GM doubles its white collar layoffs[/FONT]*
> 
> [FONT=&quot]By Ed Brayton 2/11/09 8:26 AM [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]What a difference a couple of days makes. On Monday, we linked to a Bloomberg News report that GM planned to cut 5,000 salaried positions as part of the restructuring plan it must present to Congress next week. Now the Detroit News reports that the number is double that amount:
> 
> [/FONT][FONT=&quot]General Motors Corp. said this morning it will eliminate 10,000 salaried workers worldwide this year to cut costs, adapt to a sales slump and comply with requirements of the $13.4 billion federal loan package.[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]
> In the United States, the Detroit automaker wants to eliminate 3,400 of GM&#8217;s 29,500 salaried workers, who will receive severance payments, benefit contributions and outplacement help. Most of the job cuts will happen by May 1.[/FONT]
> ​[FONT=&quot]Unlike many cuts to hourly workers and last year&#8217;s white collar cuts, the company does not plan to offer a buyout this time around because the terms of the government bailout forbids it. GM is also cutting the salaries for those white collar workers who remain with the company by up to 10%.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The fact is that allowing millions and millions and millions of *Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals* to* &#8216;displace&#8217; U.S. workers from JOBS* kicks the bottom out of *the &#8216;consumer base&#8217; FOR YOUR GOODS AND SERVICES*. The *&#8216;displaced&#8217; blue-collar workers* cannot afford to buy new cars and trucks, because they are forced to compete with ten and twenty Illegal Aliens living in one house! So the General Motors showrooms have *fewer and fewer legal U.S. CUSTOMERS*, until the GM white-collar workers are *also &#8216;displaced&#8217; from their JOBS*; because the local economy is *&#8216;contracting&#8217;* in the beginning stages and *IMPLODING* when local worker displacement levels reach a deadly saturation point. The Government&#8217;s answer is to hand General Motors and the banks billions and billions and billions of &#8216;borrowed&#8217; taxpayer dollars (with interest) rather than *simply protect the JOBS within the local job market *so &#8216;legal&#8217; American workers &#8216;can&#8217; afford to buy new cars and trucks. The Illegal Alien Foreign National need not be hired by General Motors to &#8216;displace&#8217; the white-collar worker, because &#8216;demand destruction&#8217; for GM products will do that job.   [/FONT]



Toro said:


> They're doing all the shitty jobs most Americans don't want.


 
Right here is the kind of absolute ignorance and stupidity that stands in the way of America ever resolving these Mortgage/Financial/Credit/Economic Crisis Problems in the first place. First of all, the USA has plenty of perfectly good Immigration Laws (Wiki) that are simply NOT BEING ENFORCED. Ask yourself WHY Senor Bushie and now Senor Obama REFUSE to &#8216;enforce&#8217; the Rule of Law and WHY U.S. workers have nobody protecting their identities and JOBS??? Toro is actually repeating the same stupidity from *George &#8220;Open Borders Lobby&#8221; Bush* (Peter Gadiel&#8217;s Open Letter to Bush) amounting to a display of *&#8216;his&#8217; willingness NOT to &#8216;enforce&#8217; the Rule of Law*. 

The reason I am sitting here in front of this wide-screen monitor right now is because my boss is forced to compete with other contractors using *MORE than their fair share of Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals*, which means my boss must *lower his prices to &#8216;below cost&#8217; to even get a job*. Here is the simple reality that Toro might never wake up to see: One white guy can hire fifty Illegal Aliens and *put MANY &#8216;legal&#8217; U.S. citizens OUT OF WORK* by driving DOWN the prices that *&#8216;legal&#8217; contractors can charge *for goods and services. Guess what? The white-collar people (chief estimators, supervisors, etc.) are ALSO OUT OF WORK and *the fifty Illegal Aliens are sending every nickel they can OUT of the local economy* and back across the border to Mexico and all parts of God&#8217;s Green Earth!!! Multiply this problem by the *millions and millions and millions of Illegal Aliens* and you can see the reason that our U.S. Economy is well on the way to IMPLODING right before our eyes, because &#8216;displaced&#8217; U.S. workers then go out and start &#8216;displacing&#8217; even more U.S. workers in an endless cycle of worker displacement. 

I am not trying to delude anybody into thinking that worker displacement by Illegal Aliens is the &#8216;only&#8217; source of our Economic Problems, but this represents just one facet  of the problem that includes FAR too much *Outsourcing* and *FAR too many Guest Worker Programs* (23) and *FAR too many NAFTA-like &#8216;free trade agreements&#8217;* destroying the U.S. manufacturing base. When you take a big step backwards and look at the overall situation, then our Congress is allowing the systematic destruction of the American Middle Class through a multifaceted and well-orchestrated PLAN being carried out very much ON PURPOSE. These retards in Washington D.C. cannot possibly be THIS STUPID, which means *they are guilty of simply being &#8216;corrupt&#8217;* from taking billions and billions in bribes from 41,000 Lobbyists. 

The fact is that masons and their tenders and carpenters and their helpers and roofers, painters, dry-wallers, and everyone working with their hands, are being systematically &#8216;displaced&#8217; from the local consumer base &#8216;and&#8217; that affects every &#8216;service sector&#8217; job &#8216;and&#8217; every white-collar job in the socioeconomic pyramid that Congress and Senor Obama have sworn to protect. Obama&#8217;s Plan is to* kick the &#8216;backdoor&#8217; wide open* by giving &#8216;*Comprehensive AMNESTY*&#8217; to *20 million Illegal Aliens* &#8216;and&#8217; *the unscrupulous &#8216;employers&#8217; hiring them*, even though the U.S. Economy is teetering on COLLAPSE; which is like kicking a man while he is face-down on the ground with 20 million Illegal Aliens raping him at the very same time. 

Why would Obama do such a thing? That is simple: Just click on *&#8220;The Obama Deception&#8221;* in my signature . . . 

  GL,

  Terral


----------



## Ravi

Terral said:


> [FONT=&quot]The *displaced blue-collar workers* cannot afford to buy new cars and trucks, because they are forced to compete with ten and twenty Illegal Aliens living in one house![/FONT]


Then the illegals should be easily able to buy new cars and trucks...I guess they're buying Toyotas, too.


----------



## editec

I find it amusing that when the argument that *Immingrants are RESPONSIBLE for the motgage crises is* logically smashed into the dust all that happens is those of of who showed what nonsense that is are accused of supporting illegal immigrantion.

Thse xenophobes are too fucking stupid to realize that one thing has NOTHING to do with the other, and so if one points that out to them they ASSUME that you are a liberal who panders to illegal immigrantion.

HEY boys, instead of trying to create straw-liberals on this board over an issue which you clearly do not understand, why not just accept that your premise was bullshit and move on?


There's PLENTY opf things to bitch about regards illegal immigrants, but the MORTGAGE crises just isn't one of those things.

Get over it.


----------



## Terral

Hi Ravi:



Ravi said:


> Terral said:
> 
> 
> 
> The *&#8216;displaced&#8217; blue-collar workers* cannot afford to buy new cars and trucks, because they are forced to compete with ten and twenty Illegal Aliens living in one house!
> 
> 
> 
> Then the illegals should be easily able to buy new cars and trucks...I guess they're buying Toyotas, too.
Click to expand...

 
  No! I can explain how *the 'HIRING' OF Illegal Aliens* by unscrupulous contractors is 'part' of the problem in this Mortgage/Financial Meltdown, but I cannot climb through this computer screen and force anybody to think using common cotton-picking logic! I have worked with tons of Illegal Aliens and they show up six and eight in one car. You are assuming that *the unscrupulous contractor* is paying these *Illegal Aliens* a *&#8216;fair living wage,&#8217;* when in reality they are willing to work for less than half the price! These Illegal Aliens spend money at Walmart and McDonalds and the Dollar Store, but are in no position to be buying new cars off the showroom floor. You missed the point that *&#8216;white-collar workers&#8217;* from *competing companies *are *OUT OF A JOB*, because the contractor hiring &#8216;your&#8217; Illegal Aliens has lowered his prices to *run all &#8216;legal&#8217; contractors in the area OUT OF BUSINESS*.This is another aspect of the insidious 'displacement' cycle that a majority of Americans are too simpleminded to understand. Abraham Lincoln is our prophet:

Wikquotes



> Good Ole Abe >> "At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? &#8212; Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! &#8212; All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.
> 
> At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us,* it must spring up amongst us.* It cannot come from abroad.If destruction be our lot,* 'we must ourselves be its author and finisher.' *As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."


America deserves destruction, because We The People are too stupid to realize that *the enemy has already sprung up among us* and *'we ourselves' are the authors and finishers of our own demise . . . 
* 
  GL,

  Terral


----------



## AssHatZombie

Terral said:


> Hi Ravi:
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terral said:
> 
> 
> 
> The *displaced blue-collar workers* cannot afford to buy new cars and trucks, because they are forced to compete with ten and twenty Illegal Aliens living in one house!
> 
> 
> 
> Then the illegals should be easily able to buy new cars and trucks...I guess they're buying Toyotas, too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No! I can explain how *the 'HIRING' OF Illegal Aliens* by unscrupulous contractors is 'part' of the problem in this Mortgage/Financial Meltdown, but I cannot climb through this computer screen and force anybody to think using common cotton-picking logic! I have worked with tons of Illegal Aliens and they show up six and eight in one car. You are assuming that *the unscrupulous contractor* is paying these *Illegal Aliens* a *fair living wage,* when in reality they are willing to work for less than half the price! These Illegal Aliens spend money at Walmart and McDonalds and the Dollar Store, but are in no position to be buying new cars off the showroom floor. You missed the point that *white-collar workers* from *competing companies *are *OUT OF A JOB*, because the contractor hiring your Illegal Aliens has lowered his prices to *run all legal contractors in the area OUT OF BUSINESS*.This is another aspect of the insidious 'displacement' cycle that a majority of Americans are too simpleminded to understand. Abraham Lincoln is our prophet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Ole Abe >> "At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?  Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!  All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.
> 
> At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us,* it must spring up amongst us.* It cannot come from abroad.If destruction be our lot,* 'we must ourselves be its author and finisher.' *As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America deserves destruction, because We The People are too stupid to realize that *the enemy has already sprung up among us* and *'we ourselves' are the authors and finishers of our own demise . . .
> *
> GL,
> 
> Terral
Click to expand...



Yep.  And the main treason committers are the globization zealots, and their cadre of ideological liars, perverting all logic, to the point where the idea of an employed american is hate speech.


----------



## Toro

Terral

First, I am not defending illegal immigration as a moral or political issue.  I am arguing that illegal immigration did not cause the economic calamity.  That is either ignorance or xenophobic scapegoating.

To clarify, you didn't even read your own post so I will highlight it for you.





Toro said:


> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> But it has to do with recovery for the middle class. We don't need immigrants driving wages down. Accept the popular opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The middle class* is not being driven down by illegal immigrants.
Click to expand...

 


> Immigrants drive wages in U.S. lower, study says
> 
> By TYCHE HENDRICKS
> SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
> 
> The presence of immigrants in the American work force has pushed wages down for U.S.-born workers, *particularly those without a high school education*, according to a recent study by a Harvard economist. But other analysts say the evidence is not so clear cut.



Seattlepo.com/business

Let's look further



> the Center for Immigration Studies has published Immigration from Mexico: Assessing the Impact on the United States by the Centers Director of Research, Steven A. Camarota. The new report contains detailed information on the economic and demographic characteristics of Mexican immigrants at both the national and state level. Topics examined include: education, welfare use, poverty and economic mobility, insurance coverage, school-age population, impact on prices and native wages, and performance of the 2nd and 3rd generations.
> 
> Among the reports findings:
> 
>  Large-scale immigration from Mexico is a very recent phenomenon. In 1970, the Mexican immigrant population was less than 800,000, compared to nearly 8 million in 2000.
> 
>  Almost two-thirds of adult Mexican immigrants have not completed high school, compared to fewer than one in ten natives. Mexican immigrants now account for 22 percent of all high school dropouts in the labor force.
> 
>  Though most natives are more skilled and thus do not face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants, this study (consistent with previous research) indicates that the more than 10 million natives who lack a high school degree do face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants.
> 
>  By increasing the supply of unskilled labor, Mexican immigration in the 1990s has reduced the wages of workers without a high school education by an estimated 5 percent. The workers affected are already the lowest-paid, comprising a large share of the working poor and those trying to move from welfare to work.
> 
>  This reduction in wages for the unskilled has likely reduced prices for consumers by only an estimated .08 to .2 percent in the 1990s. The impact is so small because unskilled labor accounts for only a tiny fraction of total economic output.



Center for Immigration Studies

In other words, illegal immigration is primarily uneducated and unskilled, its effect has primarily hit the lowest socioeconomic classes, and the effect of it has been to drive down wages by 5% or less.

The people who are coming across the border willing to work for less than minimum wage are not coming to America and displacing the American middle class.  These people are not coming in and taking jobs that pay $30 an hour.  Middle class jobs require education and an ability to communicate.  Wetbacks aren't college graduates who are generally bilingual.  It is ridiculous to believe that a grade 6-educated unilingual Guatemalan is going to saunter up to Detroit and take a middle-management job.  Will they pick berries and clean hotel rooms?  Yes.  Will they make Powerpoint presentations on distribution logistics?  Not likely.  It is also preposterous to believe that there are enough illegal immigrants making $4 an hour who could afford a $500,000 home in La Jolla or Boca Raton or Scottsdale, leading to a housing bubble.  

Thus, trying to link layoffs of white collar jobs in Michigan to illegal immigrations is wrong.  You are demonstrating false causality.



Terral said:


> Right here is the kind of absolute ignorance and stupidity that stands in the way of America ever resolving these Mortgage/Financial/Credit/Economic Crisis Problems in the first place. First of all, the USA has plenty of perfectly good Immigration Laws (Wiki) that are simply NOT BEING ENFORCED. Ask yourself WHY Senor Bushie and now Senor Obama REFUSE to enforce the Rule of Law and WHY U.S. workers have nobody protecting their identities and JOBS??? Toro is actually repeating the same stupidity from *George Open Borders Lobby Bush* (Peter Gadiels Open Letter to Bush) amounting to a display of *his willingness NOT to enforce the Rule of Law*.




"Absolute stupidity and ignorance" eh?  Well, I'm not the guy trying to scapegoat illegal immigrants for the economic crisis, when they clearly had no role.  I'm also not displaying my ignorance of basic economics with a "competition is bad" theory.  Nor am I susceptible to silly conspiracy theories, arguing that Bush deliberately tanked the economy like the one you postulate below.  



> The reason I am sitting here in front of this wide-screen monitor right now is because my boss is forced to compete with other contractors using *MORE than their fair share of Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals*, which means my boss must *lower his prices to below cost to even get a job*. Here is the simple reality that Toro might never wake up to see: One white guy can hire fifty Illegal Aliens and *put MANY legal U.S. citizens OUT OF WORK* by driving DOWN the prices that *legal contractors can charge *for goods and services. Guess what? The white-collar people (chief estimators, supervisors, etc.) are ALSO OUT OF WORK and *the fifty Illegal Aliens are sending every nickel they can OUT of the local economy* and back across the border to Mexico and all parts of Gods Green Earth!!! Multiply this problem by the *millions and millions and millions of Illegal Aliens* and you can see the reason that our U.S. Economy is well on the way to IMPLODING right before our eyes, because displaced U.S. workers then go out and start displacing even more U.S. workers in an endless cycle of worker displacement.





> I am not trying to delude anybody into thinking that worker displacement by Illegal Aliens is the only source of our Economic Problems, but this represents just one facet  of the problem that includes FAR too much *Outsourcing* and *FAR too many Guest Worker Programs* (23) and *FAR too many NAFTA-like free trade agreements* destroying the U.S. manufacturing base.




And here is where the economic logic breaks down.  It is a protectionist argument that is as old as the hills, and has been discredited in economics for some time.

Illegal immigration has lowered wages for the lowest socioeconomic classes in America.  However, the middle and higher socioeconomic classes benefit, even if it displaces white collar jobs in the trades.  Why?  Because it shifts the supply curve down.  Or - for people who haven't studied economics - more supply means everybody else pays lower prices.  Lower prices means everyone else has more money to spend on everything else, which increases their wealth.

You can have a political debate about whether this is good or not and what we should do about it.  However, the economic logic is a different matter.

Now comes the really silly part, which I have highlighted and will be left without comment.



> When you take a big step backwards and look at the overall situation, then *our Congress is allowing the systematic destruction of the American Middle Class through a multifaceted and well-orchestrated PLAN being carried out very much ON PURPOSE.* These retards in Washington D.C. cannot possibly be THIS STUPID, which means *they are guilty of simply being corrupt* from taking billions and billions in bribes from 41,000 Lobbyists.



OK then.



> The fact is that masons and their tenders and carpenters and their helpers and roofers, painters, dry-wallers, and everyone working with their hands, are being systematically displaced from the local consumer base and that affects every service sector job and every white-collar job in the socioeconomic pyramid that Congress and Senor Obama have sworn to protect. Obamas Plan is to* kick the backdoor wide open* by giving *Comprehensive AMNESTY* to *20 million Illegal Aliens* and *the unscrupulous employers hiring them*, even though the U.S. Economy is teetering on COLLAPSE; *which is like kicking a man while he is face-down on the ground with 20 million Illegal Aliens raping him at the very same time. *
> 
> Why would Obama do such a thing? That is simple: Just click on *The Obama Deception* in my signature . . .





> GL,
> 
> Terral



I highlighted that last part to demonstrate your xenophobia.


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## AssHatZombie

It didn't cause the mortgage meltdown, but it does suppress wages of american workers, wages which could stimulate the economy.


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## Ravi

AssHatZombie said:


> It didn't cause the mortgage meltdown, but it does suppress wages of american workers, wages which could stimulate the economy.


How so...the money gets spent in the economy more readily among the poor.


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## editec

The mortgage crises was made in AMERICA by AMERICANS, folks.

Trying to blame the illegal immigrants is goofy.


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## AssHatZombie

Ravi said:


> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It didn't cause the mortgage meltdown, but it does suppress wages of american workers, wages which could stimulate the economy.
> 
> 
> 
> How so...the money gets spent in the economy more readily among the poor.
Click to expand...


with suppressed wages, less money is around to spend.  Plus, they send most of it home too.  Two facts decimating your view have been presented.


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## Ravi

AssHatZombie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It didn't cause the mortgage meltdown, but it does suppress wages of american workers, wages which could stimulate the economy.
> 
> 
> 
> How so...the money gets spent in the economy more readily among the poor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> with suppressed wages, less money is around to spend.  Plus, they send most of it home too.  Two facts decimating your view have been presented.
Click to expand...

I don't think they do send most of it home, more like 10% gets sent home...it is a lot cheaper to live in Mexico than America...plus what they send home keeps those still at home there, no?

If employers were printing out the money I'd agree with your other point. But the money is still being spent, either by two cheaper workers instead of one reasonably paid worker or by the employer.


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## editec

William Joyce said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not. The immigrants gravitated to those places where they could find work.
> 
> As did the builders to build homes, and the mortgage originating banks which sold people mortgages.
> 
> Now if you could quantify the NINA loans and show us that the illegal aliens were the holders of those toxic debts, that might make that point for you that I believe you are attempting to make.
> 
> Can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> VDARE.com: 03/01/09 - Minority Mortgage Meltdown (contd.) Pay No Attention To That Diversity Mandate Behind The Curtain
> 
> Just no question that minority/illegal loans caused the mortgage meltdown. No question at all. It was Bush's pet. Even the NYT had to admit this:
Click to expand...

 
Ya' got the STATISTICS to make your point?

No?

Well _when _you do, I'd love to read them.

_UNTIL_ you do, I think this theory is founded on nothing but blather.


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## AssHatZombie

Ravi said:


> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> How so...the money gets spent in the economy more readily among the poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with suppressed wages, less money is around to spend.  Plus, they send most of it home too.  Two facts decimating your view have been presented.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think they do send most of it home, more like 10% gets sent home...it is a lot cheaper to live in Mexico than America...plus what they send home keeps those still at home there, no?
> 
> If employers were printing out the money I'd agree with your other point. But the money is still being spent, either by two cheaper workers instead of one reasonably paid worker or by the employer.
Click to expand...



Overall, the payroll is less.  And the 10% sent home (if that's even accurate) is an extra 10% that could be spent here.  You have no valid arguments.


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## Ravi

AssHatZombie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> with suppressed wages, less money is around to spend.  Plus, they send most of it home too.  Two facts decimating your view have been presented.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they do send most of it home, more like 10% gets sent home...it is a lot cheaper to live in Mexico than America...plus what they send home keeps those still at home there, no?
> 
> If employers were printing out the money I'd agree with your other point. But the money is still being spent, either by two cheaper workers instead of one reasonably paid worker or by the employer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, the payroll is less.  And the 10% sent home (if that's even accurate) is an extra 10% that could be spent here.  You have no valid arguments.
Click to expand...

Au contraire, Asshat. I have common sense on my side. Here's a little article you can read to educate yourself.

Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy : NPR


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## Tech_Esq

editec said:


> The mortgage crises was made in AMERICA by AMERICANS, folks.
> 
> Trying to blame the illegal immigrants is goofy.



Illegals had their part to play in it. It wasn't all their fault or anything, but depending on where you live, their effect was a bit larger or smaller.

In our county, we had a very large illegal population. But, we popped the bubble before the downturn by the county police beginning immigration enforcement actions. So, by the time the real estate bubble burst, we had already had a bunch of "jingle mail," foreclosures etc.


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## AssHatZombie

Ravi said:


> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they do send most of it home, more like 10% gets sent home...it is a lot cheaper to live in Mexico than America...plus what they send home keeps those still at home there, no?
> 
> If employers were printing out the money I'd agree with your other point. But the money is still being spent, either by two cheaper workers instead of one reasonably paid worker or by the employer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, the payroll is less.  And the 10% sent home (if that's even accurate) is an extra 10% that could be spent here.  You have no valid arguments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Au contraire, Asshat. I have common sense on my side. Here's a little article you can read to educate yourself.
> 
> Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy : NPR[/url]
Click to expand...



Illegal immigration supresses american wages.  Businesses like it for short term profits, but it degrads our society, long term.  I don't need to read your propaganda piece.


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## Ravi

AssHatZombie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, the payroll is less.  And the 10% sent home (if that's even accurate) is an extra 10% that could be spent here.  You have no valid arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> Au contraire, Asshat. I have common sense on my side. Here's a little article you can read to educate yourself.
> 
> Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy : NPR[/url]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal immigration supresses american wages.  Businesses like it for short term profits, but it degrads our society, long term.  I don't need to read your propaganda piece.
Click to expand...

Fine with me, I get tired of closed minded people.


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## AssHatZombie

Ravi said:


> AssHatZombie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Au contraire, Asshat. I have common sense on my side. Here's a little article you can read to educate yourself.
> 
> Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy : NPR[/url]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal immigration supresses american wages.  Businesses like it for short term profits, but it degrads our society, long term.  I don't need to read your propaganda piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fine with me, I get tired of closed minded people.
Click to expand...


Why don't you just pick out the most compelling argument presented in the piece and explain it in a concise sentence.  Can you do that?


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## Wolfmoon

*THE DREAM HAS ENDED TIME TO GO HOME!*

There is no doubt that illegal aliens drive down wages and send billions of dollars out of the country. Not only that, they cost Americans Billions in social services, court cost and millions to house them in our jails and prisons. Not to mention the cost of human life lost!

---

In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

----

$200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html 

---- 

http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0612/13/ldt.01.html

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Immigration raids in meat-packing plants in six states. It all began in prison. 

Immigration officials interviewing criminal aliens noticed a pattern. Again and again, illegal aliens serving time on unrelated charges reported they had worked for the same meat-packer, Swift, using stolen identities. 

This raid on meat-packing plants, where wages have declined from $19 to $9 an hour in many parts of the country --


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Du' oh! It's Speculators in the market with shit for brains: Let's see shit is a dark brown color, after all. Blame the darkies!  Yeah that's the ticket . Those ghostlike  imaginary  derivatives, I bet Snoop dog didn't think that SHIT up. All thoses Wall street Geckos that think Greed is what is all about. Fuck ethics, we should get on our collective kness and worship profit at any cost. It is what the global economy  gods call for, after all.


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## AssHatZombie

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Du' oh! It's Speculators in the market with shit for brains: Let's see shit is a dark brown color, after all. Blame the darkies!  Yeah that's the ticket . Those ghostlike  imaginary  derivatives, I bet Snoop dog didn't think that SHIT up. All thoses Wall street Geckos that think Greed is what is all about. Fuck ethics, we should get on our collective kness and worship profit at any cost. It is what the global economy  gods call for, after all.




Yes.  These were the more direct causes of the current crisis, but Illegal Immigration, or even Massive Legal Immigration only serves to drive down wages, and is a product of the same greedy mindset you reference above.


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## Wolfmoon

http://www.infowars.com/those-who-hire-illegal-aliens-are-todays-slave-masters/

The illegal aliens are smuggled into this country illegally for the purposes of cheap labor. In most cases, these illegal workers are *paid less than even the Federal Minimum Wage ($5.35hr)*. In some cases, they are actually paid nothing. Unscrupulous employers exploit illegal aliens for huge profits. The illegal worker is always fearful of detection, therefore he cannot make complaints of inhuman working conditions nor of labor violations. Unlike any American citizen, the illegal alien worker has no legal recourse against unethical employers.


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