# The Philosophy Of Lying.  What The Results Are.



## deskeptify (Aug 23, 2017)

The results are that the truth becomes too horrible for most people to want to hear.  And no place will allow it to be spoken.  Even though the very existence of the earth demands that they be spoken.  Those who don't want to hear it and those who won't allow it to be told will deserve their fate.  But what about those like me who don't deserve it.


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## Lumpy 1 (Aug 23, 2017)

deskeptify said:


> The results are that the truth becomes too horrible for most people to want to hear.  And no place will allow it to be spoken.  Even though the very existence of the earth demands that they be spoken.  Those who don't want to hear it and those who won't allow it to be told will deserve their fate.  But what about those like me who don't deserve it.



First OP (opening post) is my guess and welcome to the USMB. Sheesh, so someone lied about you already?
.


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 23, 2017)

These are the end times.  Those inclined to choose lies will be given over to liars.  It is a perfect match.  
If you want the truth, search it out and ask why it was so hard to find.  The answer you get will be a lie. 

Truth is, it is called brainwashing.  It is begun in our elementary schools and it graduates from our liberal colleges.  
We have reached a stage where truth doesn't even enter the picture...


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## deskeptify (Aug 23, 2017)

The Irish Ram said:


> These are the end times.  Those inclined to choose lies will be given over to liars.  It is a perfect match.
> If you want the truth, search it out and ask why it was so hard to find.  The answer you get will be a lie.
> 
> Truth is, it is called brainwashing.  It is begun in our elementary schools and it graduates from our liberal colleges.
> We have reached a stage where truth doesn't even enter the picture...



  I already know the truth.  Many truths in fact.  Because I thought about them extensively.  Though sometimes some were hard to find.  (And nearly impossible at forums that don't allow the truth to be spoken)  But sometimes it almost fell from the sky like rain.  The answers I got in any form aren't lies. Also, for me, the truth not only enters the picture but it is the picture.


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## JGalt (Aug 23, 2017)

Lie to me and tell me how handsome, witty, intelligent, and rich I am.

That's really what anyone wants. Lying is big business and if you really want to experience the truth, get one of those huge, wide-screen super-HD televisions so you can count the pimples, wrinkles, and blemishes of the beautiful starlet's face.


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## deskeptify (Aug 23, 2017)

JGalt said:


> Lie to me and tell me how handsome, witty, intelligent, and rich I am.
> 
> That's really what anyone wants. Lying is big business and if you really want to experience the truth, get one of those huge, wide-screen super-HD televisions so you can count the pimples, wrinkles, and blemishes of the beautiful starlet's face.



  It is often the case that what you want isn't good for you.  And giving you the lies you want will only be harmful to society in general.

  Here is another way to look at it.  It comes from an Emerson, Lake and Palmer song.  (Maybe they themselves got the idea from a movie called The Forbin Project)  In the song, somebody apparently creates an artificial intelligence that is mentally far superior to anything humans are.  It behaves in a way that the creator doesn't agree with.  He says to the AI "But I gave you life!"  The AI says, "What else could you do."  The creator says, "To do what was right!"  The AI says, "I'm perfect. Are you."


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 23, 2017)

deskeptify said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > These are the end times.  Those inclined to choose lies will be given over to liars.  It is a perfect match.
> ...



So regale me with a truth and we'll see if it stays put or, if not, why not.


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## The Irish Ram (Aug 23, 2017)

deskeptify said:


> JGalt said:
> 
> 
> > Lie to me and tell me how handsome, witty, intelligent, and rich I am.
> ...



Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.  Just because AI thinks he is perfect, does not mean he is. The creator obviously does not think so. So, which is telling the truth?


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## deskeptify (Aug 23, 2017)

The Irish Ram said:


> deskeptify said:
> 
> 
> > The Irish Ram said:
> ...



  Well you count as one.  Let's see how many more there will be.


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## deskeptify (Aug 23, 2017)

The Irish Ram said:


> deskeptify said:
> 
> 
> > JGalt said:
> ...



  What if a maggot could perceive perfection.  What would perfection be to it.  Also, if any AI thought it was perfect, it would be far beyond your ability to question.  There is no greater truth than that.


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## sartre play (Aug 23, 2017)

The Irish Ram said:


> These are the end times.  Those inclined to choose lies will be given over to liars.  It is a perfect match.
> If you want the truth, search it out and ask why it was so hard to find.  The answer you get will be a lie.
> 
> Truth is, it is called brainwashing.  It is begun in our elementary schools and it graduates from our liberal colleges.
> We have reached a stage where truth doesn't even enter the picture...


I see you include your self in the persons who are brain washed, as you only quote" liberal college" as brain washing sites. like un liberal  colleges don't teach a one sided view


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## SeaGal (Aug 29, 2017)

The Irish Ram said:


> Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.  Just because AI thinks he is perfect, does not mean he is. The creator obviously does not think so. So, which is telling the truth?



Both!  I like the way you think. 

Truth is not always the opposite of a lie - truth is often a matter of perception...such as in the story of the blind men and the elephant.  Each man 'sees' a portion of the elephant and describes it as such.  All are telling the 'truth' but unknowingly none can see the entire elephant, thus all are incorrect in their perception of the whole. (as opposed to lying).


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## task0778 (Aug 29, 2017)

I dunno SG, I wouldn't say that truth is a matter of perception.   It's a matter or proof, evidence, and logic.   All those blind men touching an elephant may be telling their version of what they think is the truth, but if the reality is that they're wrong then what they are saying is not the truth but their idea or theory of what the actual truth is.   IOW, an idea, a theory, a proposal.   Their proof or evidence that supports their conclusion is insufficient, and therefore should not be accepted as the truth.   They didn't lie, they were merely mistaken.

There's a difference between a lie and a mistake.   Truth is the opposite of both.


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## sartre play (Aug 29, 2017)

The Irish Ram said:


> These are the end times.  Those inclined to choose lies will be given over to liars.  It is a perfect match.
> If you want the truth, search it out and ask why it was so hard to find.  The answer you get will be a lie.
> 
> Truth is, it is called brainwashing.  It is begun in our elementary schools and it graduates from our liberal colleges.
> We have reached a stage where truth doesn't even enter the picture...


Yes brain washing as seen here in your post (and it graduates from our liberal colleges) as if every kind of college including church based, or specialized did not work towards giving the classes needed for a degree, plus the additional choices that are the reason you chose that college.


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## SeaGal (Aug 30, 2017)

task0778 said:


> I dunno SG, I wouldn't say that truth is a matter of perception.   It's a matter or proof, evidence, and logic.   All those blind men touching an elephant may be telling their version of what they think is the truth, but if the reality is that they're wrong then what they are saying is not the truth but their idea or theory of what the actual truth is.   IOW, an idea, a theory, a proposal.   Their proof or evidence that supports their conclusion is insufficient, and therefore should not be accepted as the truth.   They didn't lie, they were merely mistaken.
> 
> There's a difference between a lie and a mistake.   Truth is the opposite of both.



You're right of course. It is not my intent to diminish the value of truth - just dipping a toe in metaphysical waters...in which neither of the statements of Al or his creator can be proven false or mistaken.

Yes, there are universally held truths supported by fact, evidence, reality.  (2+2=4) or individually ( I ate oatmeal for breakfast at 7:30 am on Tuesday the 29th of August) And at times universally held truths can be altered by the input of new information...which in hindsight shows the former truth to be incorrect, not a lie.  In my opinion lying is a knowing deliberate act to replace the truth.

In the case of the blind men - they believed they had seen with their hands all the evidence necessary to declare what an elephant looked like.  Because we can see the entire elephant we know that their truth is only part of the whole.  The obvious flaw in their logic - since they were blind, not crippled - is that they did not have the intellectual curiosity to follow the particular portion of the elephant they were examining until there was no more elephant to discover.

Another example - the air temperature is 72 degrees.  One says that's warm, another says it's cool.  Who's right, who's wrong, who's mistaken, who's lying, who's telling the truth?

I think that much of what we declare true is opinion or perception based...so maybe the claim of 'true' is overused.  The OP indicated that there was a great truth to which he was privy but could not, through no fault of his own, share with us.  That invites speculation on the concept of 'truth'.


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## task0778 (Aug 30, 2017)

SeaGal said:


> task0778 said:
> 
> 
> > I dunno SG, I wouldn't say that truth is a matter of perception.   It's a matter or proof, evidence, and logic.   All those blind men touching an elephant may be telling their version of what they think is the truth, but if the reality is that they're wrong then what they are saying is not the truth but their idea or theory of what the actual truth is.   IOW, an idea, a theory, a proposal.   Their proof or evidence that supports their conclusion is insufficient, and therefore should not be accepted as the truth.   They didn't lie, they were merely mistaken.
> ...



I see the same thing around the USMB about what is labeled as fact but actually is an opinion.   A fact is a proven truth, a verifiable conclusion that given the stated conditions will always be true.   Which rarely applies to human behavior especially in areas such as politics and religion.   Someone may declare something to be a fact or to be true but quite often it is neither.   These days science is constantly coming up with new data that calls into question so many theories that previously were believed by general consensus to be true;  which tells me we need to be a little more circumspect about declaring something to be true in the 1st place if insufficient trustworthy data exists to verify it.   Instead, label it for what it is:  a theory.   A theory that is accepted by many knowledgable people as likely to be true, but still a theory.


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## Jonathan McCreevey (Aug 28, 2020)

deskeptify said:


> The results are that the truth becomes too horrible for most people to want to hear.  And no place will allow it to be spoken.  Even though the very existence of the earth demands that they be spoken.  Those who don't want to hear it and those who won't allow it to be told will deserve their fate.  But what about those like me who don't deserve it.


Do you believe you can say a lot with very few words?


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## Jonathan McCreevey (Aug 28, 2020)

The Irish Ram said:


> These are the end times.  Those inclined to choose lies will be given over to liars.  It is a perfect match.
> If you want the truth, search it out and ask why it was so hard to find.  The answer you get will be a lie.
> 
> Truth is, it is called brainwashing.  It is begun in our elementary schools and it graduates from our liberal colleges.
> We have reached a stage where truth doesn't even enter the picture...


What or who will end?


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## Jonathan McCreevey (Aug 28, 2020)

deskeptify said:


> JGalt said:
> 
> 
> > Lie to me and tell me how handsome, witty, intelligent, and rich I am.
> ...


I suppose an A.I. could happen to process along those lines.


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