# any questions about Iran?



## Perham

that was the first thing I did when I joined PF. if you have any questions about Iran, ask, I'll answer. you may want the viewpoint of a 21 year old Iranian living in Tehran.


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## eots

do you hate us for our freedumbs..


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## Perham

eots said:


> do you hate us for our freedumbs..



I don't hate you for anything, most of Iranian people like Americans.


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## eots

do you think Obama will find a excuse to bomb the hell out of your country soon


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## Perham

I think the economical situation of both countries doesn't let them get engaged in a war that costs a fortune. so no, I don't think so.


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## RetiredGySgt

So you think the world will just allow Iran the Nuclear weapons they are intent on building?


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## Perham

RetiredGySgt said:


> So you think the world will just allow Iran the Nuclear weapons they are intent on building?



if I was America, I would stop Iran from getting nukes in anyway I could, at any cost. the reason behind this is not the threats media trying to propagate, but because a powerful and sovereign Iran could change the situation in middle east so much that Israel and US cannot afford. a powerful Iran in middle east means that Arab countries could count on a regional power for protection, and Arab people would see what a revolution can do with a puppet dictatorship. that means instability in those countries, and perhaps regime change, leading to a powerful united middle east that Israel can no longer stand against, and that is cutting the influence of foreign countries in middle east, and very much means the control of oil in the hands of an independent entity, and downfall of western economic superiority. if Iran gets the nukes, the stupidest thing to do is to wage a war, exactly when he can use this awesome potential to make a superpower. so, first, believe me, if Iran could have been stopped by a little air strike, it would have been done already, second, Iran would not use nukes to destroy his only chance to become powerful, third, don't believe everything your mass media says.


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## strollingbones

are you male or female...is it true there is a high addiction rate with the youth and that the average age of your country is very young?  i would think iran to be a beautiful country...


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## Perham

strollingbones said:


> are you male or female...



I'm a male. females don't have the right to access internet. (just kidding )



> is it true there is a high addiction rate with the youth



yes, unfortunately.



> and that the average age of your country is very young?



yes, that's also true.



> i would think iran to be a beautiful country...



very very beautiful. on of the few countries in the world that you can have all the four sessions in every season on it's soil, just like America.


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## strollingbones

so what is it like to be a 21 yr old male in iran...are you in the military...are you aware that there are posters are this board who call for killing extreme radical islamics..of course they say radical extreme but in reality they will consider any muslims that...

do yall go stone the devil?  that is just wild...so dont wait for a lot of question...just tell us about your life...and how you feel...random musings are always more interesting


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## strollingbones

and do you know sunni man?  i think he is mad at me for neg repping him twice in under 15 min....speed rep is my way ....lol....and what is with the damned shoe thing....is that like the biggest insult in the world to yall....hitting someone with a shoe and calling them a dog?


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## Perham

strollingbones said:


> so what is it like to be a 21 yr old male in iran



it's kinda bittersweet. you should work hard and have less time for enjoying your life, but instead there's so much that needs to me changed, fixed and built. so, you can live with your ideals, work for them, and change the whole world. that's how I feel!



> ...are you in the military


nope, I'm currently in university for my bachelor degree, and I'm not being drafted.



> ...are you aware that there are posters are this board who call for killing extreme radical islamics..of course they say radical extreme but in reality they will consider any muslims that...



there are everywhere, I'm expecting their welcome sooner or later!



> do yall go stone the devil?



I haven't been to Mecca yet. I'm definitely considering going to hajj. but that's not the same way with all the other people. some will go to the hajj, and some can not, and some will not.



> that is just wild...so dont wait for a lot of question...just tell us about your life...and how you feel...random musings are always more interesting



I'm a young marketing manager who happens to be an IT expert and studying computer hardware engineering in the university. guess how much do I sleep a week!


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## Perham

strollingbones said:


> and do you know sunni man?  i think he is mad at me for neg repping him twice in under 15 min....speed rep is my way ....lol....



I do know sunni from PF.



> and what is with the damned shoe thing....is that like the biggest insult in the world to yall....
> hitting someone with a shoe and calling them a dog?



I'm not an arab and I'm not so familiar with their traditions, but I would prefer a cake instead of a shoe!


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## strollingbones

iranians arent arab?  okay i got to get to work but guess what...i have net...i think this morning at work...on going story there....so are you islamic....have i gotten confused?


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## RodISHI

When is the next presidential election in Iran?


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## xsited1

What would happen to you if you said Mahm&#363;d Ahmadinej&#257;d is a raving lunatic?


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## Andrew2382

way to go Xisted....he's dead!

Why did you tempt him


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## Perham

RodISHI said:


> When is the next presidential election in Iran?



12 june 2009


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## Perham

strollingbones said:


> iranians arent arab?  okay i got to get to work but guess what...i have net...i think this morning at work...on going story there....so are you islamic....have i gotten confused?



Iranians are not arabs. arabs are a small minority in Iran.

Demographics of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Perham

xsited1 said:


> What would happen to you if you said Mahm&#363;d Ahmadinej&#257;d is a raving lunatic?



that's what everybody is already saying here!! if someone does that on a official tribune, well, he's gonna go to court because of the insult accusations, if ahmadinejad wishes to do that, but unofficially, that's the least annoying thing people say about ahmadinejad everyday!!


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## Perham

Andrew2382 said:


> way to go Xisted....he's dead!
> 
> Why did you tempt him



me? dead? come on!!


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## Andrew2382

Perham said:


> that's what everybody is already saying here!! if someone does that on a official tribune, well, he's gonna go to court because of the insult accusations, if ahmadinejad wishes to do that, but unofficially, that's the least annoying thing people say about ahmadinejad everyday!!



Yet he will probably win reelction


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## Perham

Andrew2382 said:


> Yet he will probably win reelction



nooo way. we make sure of that.


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## GHook93

Perham said:


> that was the first thing I did when I joined PF. if you have any questions about Iran, ask, I'll answer. you may want the viewpoint of a 21 year old Iranian living in Tehran.



In the upcoming Iranian Presidential elections who is going to go against Alamnutjob on the reformer side? Khatami seemed like a good strong, smart and moderate leader! He didn't seem like a pragmatist at all! Any chance he will run again? Correct me if I am wrong, but Iran's constitution has a 2 consecutive term limit. What about Ali Larjami, the reformer new speaker of the Parliament, any chance he will run? Also I have read that the Ayatollahs have the final say in whether or not to disqualify a candidate! What are the chances that the Ayatollahs allow a competent reformer to run against Alamnutjob? 

Also on a personal note, what are your views of the Jews and Israel?


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## GHook93

RetiredGySgt said:


> So you think the world will just allow Iran the Nuclear weapons they are intent on building?



I don't think he is the only one th at thinks this!


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## Perham

GHook93 said:


> In the upcoming Iranian Presidential elections who is going to go against Alamnutjob on the reformer side? Khatami seemed like a good strong, smart and moderate leader! He didn't seem like a pragmatist at all! Any chance he will run again? Correct me if I am wrong, but Iran's constitution has a 2 consecutive term limit. What about Ali Larjami, the reformer new speaker of the Parliament, any chance he will run? Also I have read that the Ayatollahs have the final say in whether or not to disqualify a candidate! What are the chances that the Ayatollahs allow a competent reformer to run against Alamnutjob?



several potential candidates, but IMO khatami and karrubi are important ones from the reformers side, and ahmadinejad from the conservative side would be the most important candidate. others, even if participate, doesn't stand a chance. in fact, no one stands a chance against khatami, he's a very popular person in Iran. larijani declined his candidacy, and rafsanjani would be more than 75 years in the election day and is not eligible to be a candidate according to law. and, no one can disqualify a popular candidate, they just don't take the risk to do so. 
in Iran, someone can be president only for 2 consecutive terms, but he can participate again after a term. that means, khatami can be president after the ahmadinejad's term.



> Also on a personal note, what are your views of the Jews and Israel?



I don't have any problem with jews in general. and I think that Israel should go back to 1948's lines and we should have two separate and sovereign states of Israel and Palestine there. and there should be no war whatsoever.


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## Svante

eots said:


> do you think Obama will find a excuse to bomb the hell out of your country soon



why will Obama want t  o bomb Iran?h e are not George bush.


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## Perham

Svante said:


> why will Obama want t  o bomb Iran?h e are not George bush.



nice avatar Svante. and I hope Obama brings a change to the Iran-US relations.


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## Svante

Perham said:


> several potential candidates, but IMO khatami and karrubi are important ones from the reformers side, and ahmadinejad from the conservative side would be the most important candidate. others, even if participate, doesn't stand a chance. in fact, no one stands a chance against khatami, he's a very popular person in Iran. larijani declined his candidacy, and rafsanjani would be more than 75 years in the election day and is not eligible to be a candidate according to law. and, no one can disqualify a popular candidate, they just don't take the risk to do so.
> in Iran, someone can be president only for 2 consecutive terms, but he can participate again after a term. that means, khatami can be president after the ahmadinejad's term.




you say that you dont wan t ahmadinejad to win relection. i s he that bad a persiident? what politique abaout him dont you like.


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## Perham

Svante said:


> you say that you dont wan t ahmadinejad to win relection. i s he that bad a persiident? what politique abaout him dont you like.



despite from political views, his economic team was a total failure, ruining the country. 

politically, he is so radical, and in this situation we need a moderate president. khatami is a well known international politician and can definitely help country during this hard time.


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## Svante

Perham said:


> I don't have any problem with jews in general. and I think that Israel should go back to 1948's lines and we should have two separate and sovereign states of Israel and Palestine there. and there should be no war whatsoever.



this are good thing,why dont this b e done long time befojr?Presiident Carter h e go to Palestine an d Israel i n few days, d o you think President carter can help i n sovereign states?


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## eots

are you aware 911 was a false flag operation an inside job


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## Perham

Svante said:


> this are good thing,why dont this b e done long time befojr?Presiident Carter h e go to Palestine an d Israel i n few days, d o you think President carter can help i n sovereign states?



I honestly don't know, they are extremely radical hate-mongers on both sides, I think the first thing to do is to deport all the extremists from both nations, and then they can go ahead with a peace plan.


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## Perham

eots said:


> are you aware 911 was a false flag operation an inside job



I haven't seen enough proof from both sides of the story, therefore, I'd rather not comment on what I'm not sure about. but I definitely welcome any debates about that.


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## GHook93

Perham said:


> if I was America, I would stop Iran from getting nukes in anyway I could, at any cost. the reason behind this is not the threats media trying to propagate, but because a powerful and sovereign Iran could change the situation in middle east so much that Israel and US cannot afford. a powerful Iran in middle east means that Arab countries could count on a regional power for protection, and Arab people would see what a revolution can do with a puppet dictatorship. that means instability in those countries, and perhaps regime change, leading to a powerful united middle east that Israel can no longer stand against, and that is cutting the influence of foreign countries in middle east, and very much means the control of oil in the hands of an independent entity, and downfall of western economic superiority. if Iran gets the nukes, the stupidest thing to do is to wage a war, exactly when he can use this awesome potential to make a superpower. so, first, believe me, if Iran could have been stopped by a little air strike, it would have been done already, second, Iran would not use nukes to destroy his only chance to become powerful, third, don't believe everything your mass media says.



You believe all that from Iran getting nukes? The opposite would happen. The Iraqis, Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudi Arabians, UAE (who have territory disputes with Iran), Turks and even Sunni Syrians would be more fearful of an atomic Iran, bringing them closer to the West and America. Iran would get isolated more than she is now! 

Oh the Black gold! Inventors in the west are working night and day to get an electric car. Ford is rolling out the first all electric car - the Volt! How long before the other big Two (after the bailout) and the Japanese 2 follow suit? France is producing the first compress air cars, Israel is starting the transformation for gas stations to electric power stations. Soon the black gold will be fool's gold. Seems like the world is finally moving that direction. America will being sending Iran, Saudia Arabia, Russia, Venezuela and OPEC an economic nuclear bomb. Only the UAE is smart enough to start preparing for that day!


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## GHook93

strollingbones said:


> so what is it like to be a 21 yr old male in iran...are you in the military...are you aware that there are posters are this board who call for killing extreme radical islamics..of course they say radical extreme but in reality they will consider any muslims that...


Yes but Iran has problems with Islamic terrorist organizations itself. I wish I could find the article, but Sunni Al Qaeda has made numerous threats against Shia Iran in the past!


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## eots

what is your view on this incident 

The Secret Government (CIA Overthrow of Mossadeq)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaGCJmCAJ40]YouTube - The Secret Government (CIA Overthrow of Mossadeq)[/ame]


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## GHook93

strollingbones said:


> iranians arent arab?  okay i got to get to work but guess what...i have net...i think this morning at work...on going story there....so are you islamic....have i gotten confused?



Wait, you did know that? They are Persians! You know that Afghanis are Arabs either right? 
Yet you speak on the subject many times!


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## GHook93

Perham said:


> nooo way. we make sure of that.



Yep, I heard that Alamnutjob has done for the Iranian conservative party what GWB has done for the Republican party! As the reformer just took the Parliament and Ali Larjami, a reformer, just became Speaker! However, can't the Ayatollahs disqualify whoever they want from running in the elections?


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## GHook93

Perham said:


> several potential candidates, but IMO khatami and karrubi are important ones from the reformers side, and ahmadinejad from the conservative side would be the most important candidate. others, even if participate, doesn't stand a chance. in fact, no one stands a chance against khatami, he's a very popular person in Iran. larijani declined his candidacy, and rafsanjani would be more than 75 years in the election day and is not eligible to be a candidate according to law. and, no one can disqualify a popular candidate, they just don't take the risk to do so.
> in Iran, someone can be president only for 2 consecutive terms, but he can participate again after a term. that means, khatami can be president after the ahmadinejad's term.


I hope Khatami runs and wins again. I listen to a speech he made and he seems very level headed and highly intellectual. I think Obama and Khatami could do some good btw the 2 countries!




> I don't have any problem with jews in general. and I think that Israel should go back to 1948's lines and we should have two separate and sovereign states of Israel and Palestine there. and there should be no war whatsoever.


I like that approach, although '48 lines are not the discussion, rather the '67 lines are!


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## Perham

eots said:


> what is your view on this incident
> 
> The Secret Government (CIA Overthrow of Mossadeq)
> YouTube - The Secret Government (CIA Overthrow of Mossadeq)



US will never be forgiven in Iran for overthrowing such a wonderful potential. that's all I can say.


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## Perham

GHook93 said:


> You believe all that from Iran getting nukes? The opposite would happen. The Iraqis, Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudi Arabians, UAE (who have territory disputes with Iran), Turks and even Sunni Syrians would be more fearful of an atomic Iran, bringing them closer to the West and America. Iran would get isolated more than she is now!
> 
> Oh the Black gold! Inventors in the west are working night and day to get an electric car. Ford is rolling out the first all electric car - the Volt! How long before the other big Two (after the bailout) and the Japanese 2 follow suit? France is producing the first compress air cars, Israel is starting the transformation for gas stations to electric power stations. Soon the black gold will be fool's gold. Seems like the world is finally moving that direction. America will being sending Iran, Saudia Arabia, Russia, Venezuela and OPEC an economic nuclear bomb. Only the UAE is smart enough to start preparing for that day!



we'll see!


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## Perham

GHook93 said:


> I hope Khatami runs and wins again. I listen to a speech he made and he seems very level headed and highly intellectual. I think Obama and Khatami could do some good btw the 2 countries!
> 
> I like that approach, although '48 lines are not the discussion, rather the '67 lines are!



that's really up to two nations to decide what lines, even they can agree on new lines, but I fully support peace between them in any possible way. that war is hurting everyone including both Israel and Palestine.


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## strollingbones

Perham said:


> I honestly don't know, they are extremely radical hate-mongers on both sides, I think the first thing to do is to deport all the extremists from both nations, and then they can go ahead with a peace plan.



the extremists will never allow peace..war is too profitable for them


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## Perham

GHook93 said:


> Yep, I heard that Alamnutjob has done for the Iranian conservative party what GWB has done for the Republican party! As the reformer just took the Parliament and Ali Larjami, a reformer, just became Speaker! However, can't the Ayatollahs disqualify whoever they want from running in the elections?



no they can't. people will fight for their will, this is a revolutionary country. no one dares to dictate his will on the nation. also, disqualifying a candidate happens according to law, they can't just disqualify anyone they don't like.


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## Perham

strollingbones said:


> the extremists will never allow peace..war is too profitable for them



that's why I said they should get rid of them. we should get rid of all extremists in the world. (in a non-radical way!)


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## FistyTheBadger

Is it true that Iran is really controlled by Islamic clerics and that democracy in Iran is a farce?


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## Perham

I'll call it a semi democracy, but it's in the way of getting better. not the other way. the country is now so much more moderate than 20 years ago and people are getting more freedoms. we all have hope, and we will work hard to achieve an ideal state.


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## FistyTheBadger

Perham said:


> I'll call it a semi democracy, but it's in the way of getting better. not the other way. the country is now so much more moderate than 20 years ago and people are getting more freedoms. we all have hope, and we will work hard to achieve an ideal state.


So is the answer "Yes, the Muslim clerics really are in charge.  We want them gone, but that is how it is right now."?


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## Perham

nope, not like that, people of Iran has the right to choose from candidates of all parties in parliamentary and presidential elections, but if someone is not well-known, and has opposite views to the government, most likely he won't get anywhere. but if people know someone, then it's really hard to ban him without consequences.


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## eots

Perham said:


> US will never be forgiven in Iran for overthrowing such a wonderful potential. that's all I can say.



I can understand that..


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## GHook93

eots said:


> are you aware 911 was a false flag operation an inside job



Are you aware that comments like that lower the intelligence of the board and make you look like an !


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## GHook93

Perham said:


> nice avatar Svante. and I hope Obama brings a change to the Iran-US relations.



Dido


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## GHook93

Svante said:


> this are good thing,why dont this b e done long time befojr?Presiident Carter h e go to Palestine an d Israel i n few days, d o you think President carter can help i n sovereign states?



NO! Nothing will happen until Israel and Hamas sit at the same table (things might still not happen, but its a start)!


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## GHook93

strollingbones said:


> the extremists will never allow peace..war is too profitable for them



A person who thinks the Iranians are Arabs, is now claiming more knowledge on the M.E.! Amazing


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## strollingbones

what does iran export?  i have visions of silks and stuff beyond what i can imagine....most of the iranians here..tend to say they are from persia....counting on american ignorance of geography..works most of the time...


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## strollingbones

GHook93 said:


> A person who things the Iranians are Arabs, is now claiming more knowledge on the M.E.! Amazing



what have i claimed..that the extremists on both side will never allow peace...i think that is a pretty solid claim.....you have the "right of return" and then the west bank settlers....do you see peace coming from either of those problems....if anyone knows the me...i would mostly guess it would be jillian...


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## strollingbones

try not to confuse my posts with the voices in your head ghock


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## GHook93

strollingbones said:


> what does iran export?  i have visions of silks and stuff beyond what i can imagine....most of the iranians here..tend to say they are from persia....counting on american ignorance of geography..works most of the time...



Iran was originally called Persia. Have you seen 300? That was the Great Persian Empire! Iranians are ethnically Persians!


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## GHook93

strollingbones said:


> what have i claimed..that the extremists on both side will never allow peace...i think that is a pretty solid claim.....you have the "right of return" and then the west bank settlers....do you see peace coming from either of those problems....if anyone knows the me...i would mostly guess it would be jillian...



Sharon was what you would have called as an extremist, but removed the settlers from Gaza. Every last one of them!


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## Perham

strollingbones said:


> what does iran export?  i have visions of silks and stuff beyond what i can imagine....most of the iranians here..tend to say they are from persia....counting on american ignorance of geography..works most of the time...



a quite good article about that:
Iran's non-oil export up to dlrs 16.3b - Irna


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## eots

GHook93 said:


> Are you aware that comments like that lower the intelligence of the board and make you look like an !




actually  I Belive the very opposite be true



*Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.*  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.

Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire.  Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed.  Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon?  If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there. 

Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control.  No way!  With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could! 

Finally, going over the hill and highway and crashing into the Pentagon right at the wall/ground interface is nearly impossible for even a small slow single engine airplane and no way for a 757. Maybe the best pilot in the world could accomplish that but not these unskilled "terrorists". 

*Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a "Conspiracy Theory" does not change the truth.  It seems, "Something is rotten in the State." *


*Dwain Deets, MS Physics, MS Eng  Former Director, Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center.  Before this appointment, he served as Director, Research Engineering Division at Dryden.  Recipient of the NASA Exceptional Service Award and the Presidential Meritorious Rank Award in the Senior Executive Service (1988).*  Selected presenter of the Wright Brothers Lectureship in Aeronautics, a distinguished speaking engagement sponsored by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) (1986).  Included in "Who's Who in Science and Engineering" 1993 - 2000.  Former Chairman of the Aerospace Control and Guidance Systems Committee of the Society of Automotive Engineers.  Former Member, AIAA Committee on Society and Aerospace Technology.  37 year NASA career. 
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:


"*The many visual images (massive structural members being hurled horizontally, huge pyroclastic clouds, etc.) leave no doubt in my mind explosives were involved [in the destruction of the World Trade Center*]."  AE911Truth 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 500 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## Toro

Hey Perham, whose bigger in Iran, Liverpool or Manchester United?


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## Perham

me being a liverpool fan, can't give you unbiased view!


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## Toro

Perham said:


> me being a liverpool fan, can't give you unbiased view!



Alright!

You, me and Tigerbob will all get along well.

YNWA!


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## Sunni Man

*The Best Defense Iran Could Have *

By David Swanson

Given the fates of the other two members of Bush's axis of evil, some would argue that the best defense Iran could have would be a nuclear bomb. They would, however, be wildly wrong. The best defense Iran could have would be awareness in the minds of Americans of who the Iranian people are, a people with great love and affection for the American people, great generosity toward others, and great commitment to peace. The best way I know that this defense could be created would be for Americans to give every other American they can a copy of Phil Wilayto's new book "In Defense of Iran: Notes from a U.S. Peace Delegation's Journey Through the Islamic Republic."

And an amazing journey it is, visiting people and places in Iran that you would not expect from either Iran's portrayal in the corporate media or from the position I've taken in the previous paragraph. Wilayto does not air brush Iran's flaws or exaggerate its achievements, but he does set them in proper context and provide illuminating comparisons with other countries, especially our own. His tale mixes travel records with history and political argument to provide the best window I've found through which to peer halfway around the globe and into a complex and conventionally caricatured culture. Wilayto even recounts running into a U.S. television crew in Iran and shows us what they reported as well as what was really there.

Wilayto's book provides an understanding, among much else, of the following:

Everyone in Iran is provided with health care.

In Iran abortion is illegal, male sterilization legal, and couples required to take a class on modern contraception before marrying. A condom factory in Tehran produces 45 million condoms per year in 30 colors, shapes, and flavors. 

In Iran live Persians, Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Baluchis, Bakhtyaris, Lurs, Armenians, Assyrians, Jews, Brahuis, and Iranians of African descent. Israel has had very little luck offering Iranian Jews large sums of money to move to Israel. Minorities are guaranteed representation in Iran's government.

The CIA overthrew Iran's democratically elected leader in 1953 for British oil interests repackaged as Cold War struggle. Fear of another CIA coup was a major cause of Iranian students seizing American hostages in 1979. The hostage taking caused President Jimmy Carter to cut diplomatic ties and create sanctions that remain in place today.

Iranians like to put hard sugar in their mouths and sip tea through it.

The issue at the heart of U.S.-Iranian relations is Iran's nationalization or privatization of oil. Working class Iranians tend to favor nationalization and tend to be more religious, while those speaking out for more personal freedoms tend to be wealthy and to favor privatization.

When Iranians, including members of the military unit that the United States has bizarrely labeled a terrorist group, meet Americans in Iran they are thrilled, friendly, delighted, and eager to offer their assistance.

Iran has not attacked anyone in centuries but was attacked by Iraq with support from the United States, in a brutal eight-year war that included the use, by Iraq, of chemical weapons. A major Iranian peace museum documents the horrors of war.

Women and men can use Iranian taxis, but women who prefer to ride without men can use a taxi company created only for women.

Iran opposed Al Qaeda, Saddam Hussein, and the Taliban, and assisted the United States in Afghanistan.

In 1988 a U.S. ship shot down an Iranian passenger plane, killing all 290 passengers. President Reagan gave the ship's officers medals, and President Bush I. swore he would never apologize for it, something neither of his presidential successors has done either.

Literacy for Iranian women has climbed from 25 percent in 1970 under the U.S. backed shah to 80 percent in 2007, and school enrollment from 60 percent in 1970 to 90 percent in 2000. Between 65 and 70 percent of university students are women.

In 2003 Iran offered to negotiate, including putting its relationship with Israel and its nuclear energy program on the table, and President Bush II. said no.

Hand guns and alcohol are banned. A strong social safety net prevents poverty. Women feel safe walking alone at night.

Iran has an all-female fire department. U.S. cities banned female firefighters until 1974. 

The president of Iran proposed regime change in Israel, not genocide of Israelis, and is open to a two-state solution for Palestine.

Working women get 90 days maternity leave at two-thirds pay. 

Iran ranks high in lists of nations with rights for workers. The right to organize and strike is not respected. But overtime is voluntary and paid at 140 percent. Vacations are four weeks. Wages cannot be varied on the basis of age, gender, race, ethnic origin, or political or religious convictions. Those laid off get severance pay. Those falsely accused of crimes get back pay and retain their jobs. 

The above list is a fraction of the topics addressed brilliantly in Wilayto's book. He also addresses the topic of nuclear energy, arguing that Iran's oil supply will run out and that therefore Iran must build nuclear energy. However, there are alternatives that Wilayto does not discuss.

Of course, Iran's and everyone's oil supplies will indeed run out, although we'll probably destroy the planet for human life if we exhaust those supplies. On the other hand, nuclear energy is extremely dangerous as well. One alternative that is viable in Iran is wind. 

CODEPINK Women for Peace recently announced the creation of a company called Winds of Change, which will invest in Iranian wind energy, specifically in the Saba Niroo Wind Company, as well as in a campaign to end sanctions. Saba Niroo builds wind farms in Iran, but has been forced to halt production because the United States has pressured the Danish wind company Vestas to deny the Iranian company necessary parts.

"It's ironic that the West is so vehemently opposed to Iran's efforts to develop nuclear energy, but it is sabotaging our efforts to develop clean energy sources like wind," said Nader Niktabe, Sara Niroo's managing director.

"Under present U.S. law, companies that invest in Iran are subject to a $1 million fine," said Medea Benjamin, CODEPINK co-founder. "We're challenging those unproductive restrictions and pushing the Obama administration to lift sanctions and establish peaceful relations with Iran."

www.davidswanson's blog.com


----------



## editec

Perham said:


> if I was America, I would stop Iran from getting nukes in anyway I could, at any cost. the reason behind this is not the threats media trying to propagate, but because a powerful and sovereign Iran could change the situation in middle east so much that Israel and US cannot afford. a powerful Iran in middle east means that Arab countries could count on a regional power for protection, and Arab people would see what a revolution can do with a puppet dictatorship. that means instability in those countries, and perhaps regime change, leading to a powerful united middle east that Israel can no longer stand against, and that is cutting the influence of foreign countries in middle east, and very much means the control of oil in the hands of an independent entity, and downfall of western economic superiority. if Iran gets the nukes, the stupidest thing to do is to wage a war, exactly when he can use this awesome potential to make a superpower. so, first, believe me, if Iran could have been stopped by a little air strike, it would have been done already, second, Iran would not use nukes to destroy his only chance to become powerful, third, don't believe everything your mass media says.


 
I don't think possessing nuclear weapons will dramtically chance the balance of power to be honest.

Nations have nuclear weapons and they serve as deterents to invasion and bombing, but that's about it.

Since I doubt the West has seriously planned on invading Iran, the value of those weapons will be (as it has become for India, Israel and Pakistan) illusionary.

I doubt even Iran's most radical radicals would, for example, nuke Isreal, knowing that the outcome of that would be the total destruction of Iran.

So really what good are those weapons to any of the nations which have them?

Not much really.


----------



## elvis

Perham said:


> that was the first thing I did when I joined PF. if you have any questions about Iran, ask, I'll answer. you may want the viewpoint of a 21 year old Iranian living in Tehran.



Are you afraid that Bush will attack before he leaves office?


----------



## Diuretic

Perham said:


> US will never be forgiven in Iran for overthrowing such a wonderful potential. that's all I can say.



Sadly I can't pos rep this post.


----------



## Perham

elvis3577 said:


> Are you afraid that Bush will attack before he leaves office?



no, he will not. but I think he will push for inspections on Iranian shoe companies as a weapon of ass destruction!


----------



## Diuretic

Toro said:


> Alright!
> 
> You, me and Tigerbob will all get along well.
> 
> YNWA!



Note to self - it could have been worse, much worse, it could have been Manure Ltd.


----------



## Diuretic

A serious question.  Iran's Islamic Republic was proclaimed when Ayatolla Ruhollah Khomeini returned from exile in France in 1979 when the Pahlavi family were forced out of Iran.  Do people in Iran today, those who remember the Pahlavi regime and perhaps those who know of the regime from historical study, wish a return to the Pahlavi days?


----------



## Perham

Diuretic said:


> A serious question.  Iran's Islamic Republic was proclaimed when Ayatolla Ruhollah Khomeini returned from exile in France in 1979 when the Pahlavi family were forced out of Iran.  Do people in Iran today, those who remember the Pahlavi regime and perhaps those who know of the regime from historical study, wish a return to the Pahlavi days?



mostly rich people, the revolution had it's effect on them, but that's at best 3% of today's Iran. really, it was more than awful in villages and small cities back then. Iran was just wasting money on useless junk like ceremonies and stuff. if mossadeq's regime could have continue its job, we were among top economies of the world now. besides, today Iran has a very bright and active young force that are changing the country. I've never seen any of these 3rd generation kids wanting a dictatorship back. btw, Islamic republic proclaimed after a democratic referendum with 98% of people voting for it.


----------



## Diuretic

Thanks for that Perham, it's a valuable insight.  I think it's important for those of us outside Iran to see things in perspective....in fact we can all defy our governments by finding out things from individuals without the government filters, simply exchanging messages between and amongst individuals is a great thing.  More power to us little folks


----------



## Perham

little folks can do a great change. I always believed in that. there's so much work to do for my country, and I believe after GWB, you have repairing job to do as much as we have!


----------



## Lycurgus

Perham said:


> I don't have any problem with jews in general. and I think that Israel should go back to 1948's lines and we should have two separate and sovereign states of Israel and Palestine there. and there should be no war whatsoever.



Well said and I agree.

Also, thank you for your participation and willingness to share. 

I think what many seem to forget is that most people in this world simply want to live their lives and get along. They are more worried about family, work and recreation, instead of many negative things. 

A good friend of mine just returned home to Lebanon, another beautiful country who has simply been ruined by everyone else in the region. His family and mine have to meet in Cyprus or on our families home island to visit, simply because it is still not safe for American's to travel over there. Hopefully the day will come when that is not the case.


----------



## editec

I've been telling this board that the people of Iran are relatively modern sophisticated folks for some time now, Perham.

Mostly I think they dismissed me as being an idealist, a liberal, and a fool.

Your posts here have done much, I think, to make them realize that your people are really not all that much different than they are.

Basically both Americans and Iranians (the people, not necessarily their governments) want to live in peace and get on with their lives. 

I sincerely hope that Obama's regime will do much to decrease the amount of tension between our people.


----------



## Perham

editec said:


> I've been telling this board that the people of Iran are relatively modern sophisticated folks for some time now, Perham.
> 
> Mostly I think they dismissed me as being an idealist, a liberal, and a fool.
> 
> Your posts here have done much, I think, to make them realize that your people are really not all that much different than they are.
> 
> Basically both Americans and Iranians (the people, not necessarily their governments) want to live in peace and get on with their lives.
> 
> I sincerely hope that Obama's regime will do much to decrease the amount of tension between our people.





Lycurgus said:


> Well said and I agree.
> 
> Also, thank you for your participation and willingness to share.
> 
> I think what many seem to forget is that most people in this world simply want to live their lives and get along. They are more worried about family, work and recreation, instead of many negative things.
> 
> A good friend of mine just returned home to Lebanon, another beautiful country who has simply been ruined by everyone else in the region. His family and mine have to meet in Cyprus or on our families home island to visit, simply because it is still not safe for American's to travel over there. Hopefully the day will come when that is not the case.



the nations never had a problem in the first place. the governments did. what percentage of people in both countries do you think have the same urge for more power and more money as their own politicians? I say less than 10%. you think nations go to war? nope, governments do. we all could be friends. we just need to change.


----------



## GHook93

It would lead to a nuclear arms race in the middle east. First it would start with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE and Turkey (all who don't have peachy relations with Iran). Soon, ironically it would move to Iraq.  At that point there would be no stopping the free fall. The Lebanon and Syria would be next with Iran's help. Soon Jordan, Libya. How long before real brutal and rogue nations like the Sudan, Mymammar/Burma, Somolia, the Congo etc get them! How long before one goes off? How long before the nuclear winter?


Rice: Arabs want to meet on Iran nukes | Iran news | Jerusalem Post


Perham said:


> if I was America, I would stop Iran from getting nukes in anyway I could, at any cost. the reason behind this is not the threats media trying to propagate, but because a powerful and sovereign Iran could change the situation in middle east so much that Israel and US cannot afford. a powerful Iran in middle east means that Arab countries could count on a regional power for protection, and Arab people would see what a revolution can do with a puppet dictatorship. that means instability in those countries, and perhaps regime change, leading to a powerful united middle east that Israel can no longer stand against, and that is cutting the influence of foreign countries in middle east, and very much means the control of oil in the hands of an independent entity, and downfall of western economic superiority. if Iran gets the nukes, the stupidest thing to do is to wage a war, exactly when he can use this awesome potential to make a superpower. so, first, believe me, if Iran could have been stopped by a little air strike, it would have been done already, second, Iran would not use nukes to destroy his only chance to become powerful, third, don't believe everything your mass media says.


----------



## Perham

GHook93 said:


> It would lead to a nuclear arms race in the middle east. First it would start with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE and Turkey (all who don't have peachy relations with Iran). Soon, ironically it would move to Iraq.  At that point there would be no stopping the free fall. The Lebanon and Syria would be next with Iran's help. Soon Jordan, Libya. How long before real brutal and rogue nations like the Sudan, Mymammar/Burma, Somolia, the Congo etc get them! How long before one goes off? How long before the nuclear winter?
> 
> 
> Rice: Arabs want to meet on Iran nukes | Iran news | Jerusalem Post



I don't think any country would share the knowledge of how to make a nuclear bomb. that just doesn't work. anyway, it's all speculations. we can't really know the future until it comes. January 20th is an important day, let's see what happens next.


----------



## GHook93

Perham said:


> I don't think any country would share the knowledge of how to make a nuclear bomb. that just doesn't work. anyway, it's all speculations. we can't really know the future until it comes. January 20th is an important day, let's see what happens next.



North Korea was said to have shared this knowledge with many! Pakistan's man nuclear scientist was caught selling the secrets to the bomb and is on house arrest right now.


----------



## GHook93

Persham,

What are the serious chances that Khatami will run again? If he does want are the odds of him Almadinjad?

Loading...


----------



## Perham

GHook93 said:


> *Perham*,
> 
> What are the serious chances that Khatami will run again? If he does want are the odds of him Almadinjad?
> 
> Loading...




Khatami will run for presidency. he even has started going around the country to gain support. if doesn't get assassinated, ahmadinejad doesn't stand a chance against him.


----------



## GHook93

Perham said:


> Khatami will run for presidency. he even has started going around the country to gain support. if doesn't get assassinated, ahmadinejad doesn't stand a chance against him.



I sure hope so! I really think Obama and Khatami could make some monumental steps in healing Iran and America's strained ties. I think stronger ties they make could diffuse a lot of the tension in the middle east!


----------



## Perham

GHook93 said:


> I sure hope so! I really think Obama and Khatami could make some monumental steps in healing Iran and America's strained ties. I think stronger ties they make could diffuse a lot of the tension in the middle east!



the enmities are not going to be replaced b friendship overnight. but I so hope that two countries can get closer to each other. I believe that this cold war between two countries is hurting both, and countries like Russia, China, UAE, Qatar and Saudi Arabia are benefiting from this enmity of ours. that's just too stupid to continue. anyway, nations never had problems with each other in the first place.


----------



## Perham

Press TV - Obama emerges on path of Iran dialogue



> *US President-elect Barack Obama has reportedly taken his first step toward beginning diplomatic negotiations with the Islamic Republic.
> *
> In a Friday interview with The Washington Times, a State Department official speaking on condition of anonymity said Obama has already devised a line-up of senior diplomats and foreign policy experts to implement his Iran plans.
> 
> "The idea is that the position should build on the existing diplomatic framework," said the unnamed State Department official, adding that nominees for a senior Iranian outreach coordinator were discussed in meetings with Secretary of State-designate Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Obama has repeatedly promised "a clean break" with the Bush administration's policy of isolating the Islamic Republic. His election as the next US unconditional talks with the Islamic Republic has raised the prospect of Tehran-Washington rapprochement.
> 
> The deputy director for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Patrick Clawson, says US-Iran negotiations may well be in the offing as "there is every indication that they [Obama and members of his team] are seriously considering going this way."


----------



## editec

GHook93 said:


> It would lead to a nuclear arms race in the middle east. First it would start with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE and Turkey (all who don't have peachy relations with Iran). Soon, ironically it would move to Iraq. At that point there would be no stopping the free fall. The Lebanon and Syria would be next with Iran's help. Soon Jordan, Libya. How long before real brutal and rogue nations like the Sudan, Mymammar/Burma, Somolia, the Congo etc get them! How long before one goes off? How long before the nuclear winter?
> 
> 
> Rice: Arabs want to meet on Iran nukes | Iran news | Jerusalem Post


 
America, continuing to have arms could lead to a nuclear arms race.

_Oh! ~_ wait a minute...it already has.


----------



## Anguille

Perham said:


> but I would prefer a cake instead of a shoe!



LOL!  Welcome. I'm just getting around to reading your thread. I was once very interested in Iran as my best friend was going to school here and was from Tehran. I have a standing invitation to visit and hope to someday. I used to speak a tiny bit of Farsi but I've forgotten it all. 
I hope you enjoy this board.


----------



## Anguille

Perham said:


> mostly rich people, the revolution had it's effect on them, but that's at best 3% of today's Iran. really, it was more than awful in villages and small cities back then. Iran was just wasting money on useless junk like ceremonies and stuff. if mossadeq's regime could have continue its job, we were among top economies of the world now. besides, today Iran has a very bright and active young force that are changing the country. I've never seen any of these 3rd generation kids wanting a dictatorship back. btw, Islamic republic proclaimed after a democratic referendum with 98% of people voting for it.



Most of my Persian friends families came here to the US just before Kholmeini or right after. They had suffered  under the Shah for not supporting him, intellectuals mostly, and yet could not return after he was overthrown. Most will stay here or in Canada forever. Have you ever been to the US or Europe? Do you have any family or friends living abroad?


----------



## FistyTheBadger

Perham said:


> Khatami will run for presidency. he even has started going around the country to gain support. if doesn't get assassinated, ahmadinejad doesn't stand a chance against him.


But if he is assassinated, Ahmadinejad has a chance against him?


----------



## Agnapostate

FistyTheBadger said:


> But if he is assassinated, Ahmadinejad has a chance against him?



Maybe he could recruit Karl Rove to help him.


----------



## Perham

FistyTheBadger said:


> But if he is assassinated, Ahmadinejad has a chance against him?



hmmm...... I don't think so. people even prefer dead corpse of khatami over ahmadinejad, atleast, a dead corpse can't do anything *wrong*!


----------



## Perham

Anguille said:


> Most of my Persian friends families came here to the US just before Kholmeini or right after. They had suffered  under the Shah for not supporting him, intellectuals mostly, and yet could not return after he was overthrown. Most will stay here or in Canada forever. Have you ever been to the US or Europe? Do you have any family or friends living abroad?



I've never been outside of iran, I haven't been drafted yet, and I can't get my passport until I finish a year and a half of military service. I have many friends Iranian outside of Iran, mostly in europe. and some of far relatives of mine live in US and canada.


----------



## Anguille

Perham said:


> I've never been outside of iran, I haven't been drafted yet, and I can't get my passport until I finish a year and a half of military service. I have many friends Iranian outside of Iran, mostly in europe. and some of far relatives of mine live in US and canada.



Congratulations on your excellent English. I miss the sound of Farsi.It reminded me a bit if French.


----------



## Perham

*bumping the thread for new users and those who haven't seen it yet*


----------



## Perham

Anguille said:


> Congratulations on your excellent English. I miss the sound of Farsi.It reminded me a bit if French.



thanks. I learned English from an Iranian retired military pilot who have studied in US and was a great guy and a great teacher.


----------



## Perham

Caligirl said:


> So we read "reading lolita in tehran" for book club last month and I thought when Nafisi left the country in like 1999 the women still had to wear the chador, when did that change?



1993, maybe. women should wear hijab, but the control of hijab we now have in our country, specially in big cities, is so loose that many people just ignore them in many places.





> She also made it sound like internet or really a lot of tech was illegal, which they sort of say about China too (censorship) and some other places and I thought that was why there aren't a *lot* of middle easterners and etc on the internet, compared to yanks brits and europeans generally (and aussies).



that's BS. Iran has one of the biggest blogger communities in the world, it's censorship on internet is light and easily breakable, but we don't have infrastructures of high speed internet, and Iranian people don't speak english generally, that's why they come less in english forums and more in Farsi forums. although the youth in Iran is much more culturally advanced and almost every person under 30 can speak and understand english in a acceptable level.



> So what gives?
> 
> Welcome.



thanks.


----------



## catzmeow

I am so glad you came over here from PF.  For those who are interested in the history of Iran, a really good book is Persepolis.  There is a film by the same name that is also very good.


----------



## chloe

Perham said:


> that was the first thing I did when I joined PF. if you have any questions about Iran, ask, I'll answer. you may want the viewpoint of a 21 year old Iranian living in Tehran.



when i was a young girl me and my 1st ex husband smoked some good weed with some Iranians in Las vegas, do all iranians smoke alot of weed?


----------



## Perham

chloe said:


> when i was a young girl me and my 1st ex husband smoked some good weed with some Iranians in Las vegas, do all iranians smoke alot of weed?




Iranians are more into theriac and heroin, weed is kinda new thing in Iran.


----------



## Perham

catzmeow said:


> I am so glad you came over here from PF.  For those who are interested in the history of Iran, a really good book is Persepolis.  There is a film by the same name that is also very good.



wikipedia has a brief article on history of Iran. it's good for a brief reading: History of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## chloe

Perham said:


> Iranians are more into theriac and heroin, weed is kinda new thing in Iran.



hmm well they were really funny great sense of humor , or maybe the weed was just good !


----------



## FistyTheBadger

catzmeow said:


> I am so glad you came over here from PF.  For those who are interested in the history of Iran, a really good book is Persepolis.  There is a film by the same name that is also very good.


You really like that Persepolis, don't you?  I do, too.


----------



## Kenny

Perham said:


> if I was America, I would stop Iran from getting nukes in anyway I could, at any cost. the reason behind this is not the threats media trying to propagate, but because a powerful and sovereign Iran could change the situation in middle east so much that Israel and US cannot afford. a powerful Iran in middle east means that Arab countries could count on a regional power for protection, and Arab people would see what a revolution can do with a puppet dictatorship. that means instability in those countries, and perhaps regime change, leading to a powerful united middle east that Israel can no longer stand against, and that is cutting the influence of foreign countries in middle east, and very much means the control of oil in the hands of an independent entity, and downfall of western economic superiority. if Iran gets the nukes, the stupidest thing to do is to wage a war, exactly when he can use this awesome potential to make a superpower. so, first, believe me, if Iran could have been stopped by a little air strike, it would have been done already, second, Iran would not use nukes to destroy his only chance to become powerful, third, don't believe everything your mass media says.



I bet you agree that Saudi, Syria, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, and every other nation in the middle east should have nuclear weapons also. Why not give allow everyone to develop nuclear weapons so that they can "protect" their region. How would you like that? Give humanity a few years and you'll have nuclear turmoil across the world...by the way, send some nukes over to Mugabe and the future Hitler, whoever he may be.


----------



## ekrem

Hi.
What do you think will happen in Iraq after US redeployed to a non-relevant size? In context of the broader region involving regional countries and their interests on Iraq and via Iraq again back to the broader region?
What is your ethnicity?


----------



## Kenny

ekrem said:


> Hi.
> What do you think will happen in Iraq after US redeployed to a non-relevant size? In context of the broader region involving regional countries and their interests on Iraq and via Iraq again back to the broader region?
> What is your ethnicity?



I think it will still be businesses as usual. Iraq has their own military force that is capable of defending their nation. As for Iranian political influence, how does US military being in Iraq stop that?


----------



## Neubarth

Perham said:


> little folks can do a great change. I always believed in that. there's so much work to do for my country, and I believe after GWB, you have repairing job to do as much as we have!


I sincerely hope that your generation can bring a strong, moral and just government to Iran. The more governments like that in the world the better this place, called Planet Earth, will be.


----------



## ekrem

Kenny said:


> I think it will still be businesses as usual. Iraq has their own military force that is capable of defending their nation. As for Iranian political influence, how does US military being in Iraq stop that?



Nothing is business as usual. Invasion of Iraq changed whole region. 
"Iraqi military" can not even defend themselves within Iraq...


----------



## Perham

Kenny said:


> I bet you agree that Saudi, Syria, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, and every other nation in the middle east should have nuclear weapons also. Why not give allow everyone to develop nuclear weapons so that they can "protect" their region. How would you like that? Give humanity a few years and you'll have nuclear turmoil across the world...by the way, send some nukes over to Mugabe and the future Hitler, whoever he may be.



I'm all for total demolishing of all wmds in the world, but since US has biggest stock of them, is not in favor of destroying them, and acts aggressively toward other countries, I can't stop supporting a nuclear Iran.


----------



## Perham

ekrem said:


> Hi.
> What do you think will happen in Iraq after US redeployed to a non-relevant size? In context of the broader region involving regional countries and their interests on Iraq and via Iraq again back to the broader region?
> What is your ethnicity?



since a stable Iraq benefits everyone in the region, I think everybody helps stabilizing Iraq, and continue to seek national interests in a political way.


----------



## Kenny

ekrem said:


> Nothing is business as usual. Invasion of Iraq changed whole region.
> "Iraqi military" can not even defend themselves within Iraq...



The invasion didn't change anything except what religious group is in control of the country. Also, Iraqi military is more than capable of defending themselves from within, in fact, the majority of the disconnected is not aimed at Iraqi forces. They are aimed at US troops who are occupying the nation. As for threats from without, no one in the region could justify attack Iraq and if they tried they would be condemned by the international community.


----------



## FistyTheBadger

So, I have another question.

Do you guys have indoor plumbing and toilet seats and dishwashers and kitchen sinks and porcelain showers?


----------



## DavidS

How do you feel about Israel?


----------



## DiveCon

DavidS said:


> How do you feel about Israel?


he already said earlier in this thread 

he supports the 2 state option going by the 1948 lines


----------



## DavidS

DiveCon said:


> he already said earlier in this thread
> 
> he supports the 2 state option going by the 1948 lines



1948 lines? That takes the Jews completely out of Jerusalem. Wonderful. Another anti-israeli muslim terrorist on this forum.


----------



## DiveCon

DavidS said:


> 1948 lines? That takes the Jews completely out of Jerusalem. Wonderful. Another anti-israeli muslim terrorist on this forum.


exactly
the 48 lines were ridiculous
as far i as i see it, they should let Gaza be Palestine and the west bank should be Israel
the west bank IS Judea after all


----------



## DavidS

DiveCon said:


> exactly
> the 48 lines were ridiculous
> as far i as i see it, they should let Gaza be Palestine and the west bank should be Israel
> the west bank IS Judea after all



Please learn your biblical geography.

File:Levant 830.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All of Israel, including the Golan Heights and the West Bank should be Israel. Gaza can be part of Egypt. The Arabs that are living in the West Bank today are no different than the Arabs living in Jordan, or the Arabs living in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkmenestan, Yemen, Lebanon, etc. etc. etc.


----------



## DiveCon

DavidS said:


> Please learn your biblical geography.
> 
> File:Levant 830.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> All of Israel, including the Golan Heights and the West Bank should be Israel. Gaza can be part of Egypt. The Arabs that are living in the West Bank today are no different than the Arabs living in Jordan, or the Arabs living in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkmenestan, Yemen, Lebanon, etc. etc. etc.


well, parts of it were


----------



## DavidS

GHook93 said:


> NO! Nothing will happen until Israel and Hamas sit at the same table (things might still not happen, but its a start)!



Israel will NEVER sit at the same table as those blood thirsty animals. Hamas has been given SOOOO many chances, including the latest truce that was never really a truce.

It's time for a full-scale invasion of Gaza. Wipe them out one by one.


----------



## DavidS

GHook93 said:


> Iran was originally called Persia. Have you seen 300? That was the Great Persian Empire! Iranians are ethnically Persians!



Iran was once a flourishing country. Iran could have been the America of the Middle East.


----------



## DavidS

GHook93 said:


> Sharon was what you would have called as an extremist, but removed the settlers from Gaza. Every last one of them!



Yes, that's he did didn't he?

Where is he now? Oh that's right. A vegetable. 

Karma's a bitch, ain't it?


----------



## DavidS

Perham said:


> I don't have any problem with jews in general. and I think that Israel should go back to 1948's lines and we should have two separate and sovereign states of Israel and Palestine there. and there should be no war whatsoever.



Perhaps you are mistaken.

In 1917, when there were few, if any Arabs living in Palestine, the Balfour Decleration created Palestine, a Jewish National Home and it was this big:







But, the Arabs did not like that, so they gave the area East of the West Bank to the Arabs and called it Trans Jordan and so the Jews gave away 2/3 of its land to the Arabs in exchange for peace.

Except it didn't create peace.

So in 1948, we gave away yet another 2/3 of our land in exchange for peace with the Arabs.






And what did we get? They declared war on us and invaded Israel.

So after the war was over, they agreed if they got to keep Gaza and the West Bank, they would give us peace.






Except they didn't. In 1967, the Arabs invaded Israel yet again. This time, they got their asses handed to them and Israel captured the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Gaza. They promised if we would take no more land, they would give us peace. Except in 1973, they attacked us yet again. And once again, they lost land.






And so in 1980, Israel agreed to give back Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace. But even today, Egypt openly arms terrorist groups against Israel. And today, we are back to the 1967 lines and we have made truce after truce after truce and the Arabs keep attacking Israel. 

It is time we put our foot down and tell them we will no longer engage them in peace talks if they keep attacking us. It is time we attacked them and took the land back that we gave them in exchange for peace. They broke their word, they lose their land. If they don't like it, they can die. And if Israel needs help with that, I'm sure I can be of assistance.


----------



## Perham

FistyTheBadger said:


> So, I have another question.
> 
> Do you guys have indoor plumbing and toilet seats and dishwashers and kitchen sinks and porcelain showers?



 yes, we have all of them.


----------



## FistyTheBadger

DavidS said:


> 1948 lines? That takes the Jews completely out of Jerusalem. Wonderful. Another anti-israeli muslim terrorist on this forum.


Remember that the Jews were quite happy with the arrangement in 1948.


----------



## FistyTheBadger

DavidS said:


> Israel will NEVER sit at the same table as those blood thirsty animals. Hamas has been given SOOOO many chances, including the latest truce that was never really a truce.
> 
> It's time for a full-scale invasion of Gaza. Wipe them out one by one.


Actually, Israel has proven itself willing to sit down with Hamas.  It is Hamas that does not want to commit to a treaty for peace.


----------



## FistyTheBadger

DavidS said:


> Yes, that's he did didn't he?
> 
> Where is he now? Oh that's right. A vegetable.
> 
> Karma's a bitch, ain't it?


You are a fucking prick, Schmuck!


----------



## DavidS

FistyTheBadger said:


> Remember that the Jews were quite happy with the arrangement in 1948.



A: No they weren't
B: They were naive in thinking that Arabs would finally stop killing Jews in exchange for land. By that time, we had given 85% of the land we were promised to the Arabs in exchange for peace and to this day, we still get attacked with rockets, had to build a massive wall to keep out suicide bombers and have lost thousands thanks to their terrorists.

If you had a child who you gave things to as a reward for good behavior, wouldn't you take those things back as punishment for bad behavior?


----------



## DavidS

FistyTheBadger said:


> Actually, Israel has proven itself willing to sit down with Hamas.  It is Hamas that does not want to commit to a treaty for peace.



Israel is ruled by weak people. There are few, if any leaders who rule over Israeli government. Instead of looking out for the needs and wants of their own people, most of the Prime Ministers in the past have ruled for what America, Jordan and Egypt want and screw the Israelis. A very good friend of mine, an Orthodox Rabbi who lives there told me that the only thing keeping Israel from a civil war to finally have good leadership, is our solidarity in fighting the Arabs along with a number of extraorindarily secular jews who just don't care. 

Perfect example of this: Just 48 hours ago, Olmert was saying that we need to replace the leadership in Gaza and do a full scale invasion.

24 hours later, after Livini visited Egypt, it's been reduced to a small scale operation.

Just today there was news breaking that we might able to restore a truce with Hamas again and not send one soldier into Gaza.

Meanwhile, in the past week, Hamas has fired more rockets and mortars into southern Israel than they have ever fired in the past few years. How do we respond to that? With negotiations, with diplomacy.. the same way we have negotiated with the Arabs for decades and what do we have? We have thousands of dead Jews and not one shred of peace. 

As far as Iran is concerned, I do not support going to war with Iran unless the nutjob is re-elected. If he isn't and there is new leadership in Iran, perhaps we can talk with him. Persia was the first middle eastern country to recognize Israel in 1948. Persia has a wonderful history. The US is partially to blame for Iran's current hatred of us. If there is a leader who we can talk to, who is open, who would be willing to re-recognize Israel, well.. it would be nice.

I have hopes that Netanyahu will continue to do what he tried to do in the late 1990s and finally treat the Arabs as they treat Israelis.


----------



## Neubarth

Perham said:


> yes, we have all of them.


  I have seen parts of Iran that are not so modern.  But then again, I have seen parts of the United States that are not so modern.


----------



## Neubarth

DavidS said:


> Perhaps you are mistaken.
> 
> In 1917, when there were few, if any Arabs living in Palestine, the Balfour Decleration created Palestine, a Jewish National Home and it was this big:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, the Arabs did not like that, so they gave the area East of the West Bank to the Arabs and called it Trans Jordan and so the Jews gave away 2/3 of its land to the Arabs in exchange for peace.
> 
> Except it didn't create peace.
> 
> So in 1948, we gave away yet another 2/3 of our land in exchange for peace with the Arabs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what did we get? They declared war on us and invaded Israel.
> 
> So after the war was over, they agreed if they got to keep Gaza and the West Bank, they would give us peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except they didn't. In 1967, the Arabs invaded Israel yet again. This time, they got their asses handed to them and Israel captured the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Gaza. They promised if we would take no more land, they would give us peace. Except in 1973, they attacked us yet again. And once again, they lost land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And so in 1980, Israel agreed to give back Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace. But even today, Egypt openly arms terrorist groups against Israel. And today, we are back to the 1967 lines and we have made truce after truce after truce and the Arabs keep attacking Israel.
> 
> It is time we put our foot down and tell them we will no longer engage them in peace talks if they keep attacking us. It is time we attacked them and took the land back that we gave them in exchange for peace. They broke their word, they lose their land. If they don't like it, they can die. And if Israel needs help with that, I'm sure I can be of assistance.



The smart thing to have done after the 67 war would have been to move all of the Arabs to the banks of the Suez Canal.  They were trespassing on the ancient land of Eden (Israel) and needed to be removed. Sinai should have been split off from Egypt and the eastern 4/5ths incorperated into Israel, and it was part of Israel as described in the Bible. Israel extended in the west all the way to the River of Egypt back then.


----------



## Perham

DavidS said:


> Israel is ruled by weak people. There are few, if any leaders who rule over Israeli government. Instead of looking out for the needs and wants of their own people, most of the Prime Ministers in the past have ruled for what America, Jordan and Egypt want and screw the Israelis. A very good friend of mine, an Orthodox Rabbi who lives there told me that the only thing keeping Israel from a civil war to finally have good leadership, is our solidarity in fighting the Arabs along with a number of extraorindarily secular jews who just don't care.
> 
> Perfect example of this: Just 48 hours ago, Olmert was saying that we need to replace the leadership in Gaza and do a full scale invasion.
> 
> 24 hours later, after Livini visited Egypt, it's been reduced to a small scale operation.
> 
> Just today there was news breaking that we might able to restore a truce with Hamas again and not send one soldier into Gaza.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the past week, Hamas has fired more rockets and mortars into southern Israel than they have ever fired in the past few years. How do we respond to that? With negotiations, with diplomacy.. the same way we have negotiated with the Arabs for decades and what do we have? We have thousands of dead Jews and not one shred of peace.
> 
> As far as Iran is concerned, I do not support going to war with Iran unless the nutjob is re-elected. If he isn't and there is new leadership in Iran, perhaps we can talk with him. Persia was the first middle eastern country to recognize Israel in 1948. Persia has a wonderful history. The US is partially to blame for Iran's current hatred of us. If there is a leader who we can talk to, who is open, who would be willing to re-recognize Israel, well.. it would be nice.
> 
> I have hopes that Netanyahu will continue to do what he tried to do in the late 1990s and finally treat the Arabs as they treat Israelis.



I bet 80% of Iranian people share the same hatred toward Arabs as you have at a level that can be considered as racism. the same goes with Arabs, they hate us too. funny thing is, we're not even friendly with most of the Arabs, and we never had any problems with jews. even if it was not Cyrus, the great, the jew culture would have been destroyed years ago. I think Iranians, Israelis and Arabs, all are on the wrong sides of the equation here! that's all USA's fault, and God knows how we can fix this!


----------



## Neubarth

Perham said:


> I bet 80% of Iranian people share the same hatred toward Arabs as you have at a level that can be considered as racism. the same goes with Arabs, they hate us too. funny thing is, we're not even friendly with most of the Arabs, and we never had any problems with jews. even if it was not Cyrus, the great, the jew culture would have been destroyed years ago. I think Iranians, Israelis and Arabs, all are on the wrong sides of the equation here! that's all USA's fault, and God knows how we can fix this!


Did you know that before the Islamics swept into Iran about 637 CE, it was estimated that 20% of the population of Iran was Jewish?  Most had been there since they were carted out of Israel (Judea) by the Babylonians.  They prospered in Persia, but after the introduction of Radical Islam, most of the jews were killed.  It was a gradual mass murder greater than the Holocaust in Europe.


----------



## DavidS

Perham said:


> I bet 80% of Iranian people share the same hatred toward Arabs as you have at a level that can be considered as racism. the same goes with Arabs, they hate us too. funny thing is, we're not even friendly with most of the Arabs, and we never had any problems with jews. even if it was not Cyrus, the great, the jew culture would have been destroyed years ago. I think Iranians, Israelis and Arabs, all are on the wrong sides of the equation here! that's all USA's fault, and God knows how we can fix this!



Uh, you're bordering on a bit of anti-American speech here. The US supported a puppet government in the mid 20th century that treated his people horribly, however, your country decided that instead of protesting and demanding the removal of your leader, like Thailand recently did, your people went through a violent revolution and installed a religious fundamentalist nutjob. Human rights in Iran is completely non-existent. The Ayatollahs in Iran are responsible for a lot of the problems your country has now. If your country were to elect a moderate, perhaps even secular leader and oust the Ayotallahs and shut down your nuclear reactors, your country would enjoy much greater prosperity and much better freedom. You have no idea how free we are here in America. Freedom is a human right and you are denied that every day you continue to live under a Grand Ayotollahs rule.

Freedom is being able to express your downright hatred of the leaders of your government and not being killed or even jailed for it. Freedom is being able to worship any God or any version of God you wish to without fear. Freedom is being able to create your own business for a mere few hundred dollars and being able to sell your products worldwide without approval, consent or consideration from your government. Freedom is being able to do as you wish, as long as it does not hurt anyone else. Anything you want. I can go to a movie, a bookstore, a strip club, any place, do anything I want, walk anywhere, travel anywhere I want without fear.


----------



## DavidS

Neubarth said:


> The smart thing to have done after the 67 war would have been to move all of the Arabs to the banks of the Suez Canal.  They were trespassing on the ancient land of Eden (Israel) and needed to be removed. Sinai should have been split off from Egypt and the eastern 4/5ths incorperated into Israel, and it was part of Israel as described in the Bible. Israel extended in the west all the way to the River of Egypt back then.



We traded the Sinai peninsula for peace with Egypt. I don't know how much at peace we are with Egypt, nor do I know why we needed peace with them since we smashed them in three wars. Usually the victor of wars GAINS land, not gives it back in exchange for mock peace.

Again, Israel has no real leadership. Rabin and Sharon got what they deserved.


----------



## Sunni Man

DavidS said:


> Uh, you're bordering on a bit of anti-American speech here. The US supported a puppet government in the mid 20th century that treated his people horribly, however, your country decided that instead of protesting and demanding the removal of your leader, like Thailand recently did, your people went through a violent revolution and installed a religious fundamentalist nutjob. Human rights in Iran is completely non-existent. The Ayatollahs in Iran are responsible for a lot of the problems your country has now. If your country were to elect a moderate, perhaps even secular leader and oust the Ayotallahs and shut down your nuclear reactors, your country would enjoy much greater prosperity and much better freedom. You have no idea how free we are here in America. Freedom is a human right and you are denied that every day you continue to live under a Grand Ayotollahs rule.


The Iranian people are Free right now!

They have a democratically elected government and are Free to continue with their unique culture and values.

But you DavidS want them back under the influence of the U.S. and Israel.

You want to dictate what sort of government and leaders and laws they have to follow. 

You still exibit Zionist Nazi behavior toward the rest of the world that doesn't follow your warped brand of secular Zionist enslavement.


----------



## GHook93

FistyTheBadger said:


> Remember that the Jews were quite happy with the arrangement in 1948.



In '48 they accepted it, but its anyones guess if they were happy with it!


----------



## GHook93

Neubarth said:


> The smart thing to have done after the 67 war would have been to move all of the Arabs to the banks of the Suez Canal.  They were trespassing on the ancient land of Eden (Israel) and needed to be removed. Sinai should have been split off from Egypt and the eastern 4/5ths incorperated into Israel, and it was part of Israel as described in the Bible. Israel extended in the west all the way to the River of Egypt back then.



That would have been easier said then done! The '67 war didn't end will Israel thinking that it would eventually give up Sinai. If 2-3 million Palestinians and 500K-750K Israeli Arabs were moved to Sinai, then Sinai would have been a terrorist playground. 

However, going on this what-if theory. Imagine if Israel did move all the Arabs to Sinai and immediately declared it the Independent Palestine! Imagine that! Sinai is bigger than All of Greater Israel, could have produced peace? Maybe quicker than it has now. Sinai is all big enough to accommodate the "Palestine Refugees!" Also the Palestinians then would have a greater enemy then Israel, a very pissed of Egypt!


----------



## DavidS

Can someone tell me the difference between a Palestinian and an Israeli Arab?


----------



## Perham

DavidS said:


> Uh, you're bordering on a bit of anti-American speech here. The US supported a puppet government in the mid 20th century that treated his people horribly, however, your country decided that instead of protesting and demanding the removal of your leader, like Thailand recently did, your people went through a violent revolution and installed a religious fundamentalist nutjob. Human rights in Iran is completely non-existent. The Ayatollahs in Iran are responsible for a lot of the problems your country has now. If your country were to elect a moderate, perhaps even secular leader and oust the Ayotallahs and shut down your nuclear reactors, your country would enjoy much greater prosperity and much better freedom. You have no idea how free we are here in America. Freedom is a human right and you are denied that every day you continue to live under a Grand Ayotollahs rule.
> 
> Freedom is being able to express your downright hatred of the leaders of your government and not being killed or even jailed for it. Freedom is being able to worship any God or any version of God you wish to without fear. Freedom is being able to create your own business for a mere few hundred dollars and being able to sell your products worldwide without approval, consent or consideration from your government. Freedom is being able to do as you wish, as long as it does not hurt anyone else. Anything you want. I can go to a movie, a bookstore, a strip club, any place, do anything I want, walk anywhere, travel anywhere I want without fear.



you know much less about my country than I know about your country, so don't give me speech about how my country is and how your country is. people overthrown the puppet dictator, and regained their independence, and they will never go back to those days when we should have got US permission for our internal affairs. sorry, but that's an impossible dream. future is so bright for Iranians, unless US ruins it with a war. and honestly, I don't see any threats by Israel. US government in these 8 years has proved that he's the biggest enemy of independence of third world countries, and biggest threat in our path of success.


----------



## GHook93

DavidS said:


> Can someone tell me the difference between a Palestinian and an Israeli Arab?



Some you can and some you can't! I assume you have been to the mother land before. Its much different than what most people think. Its not the dangerous place people think it is. That is probably why the people and the government are becoming complacent. I met a bunch of Israeli Arabs that were as friendly as one could be, particularly in East Jerusalem!

I think you can also tell a difference between hardcore Hamas extremist and regular just wanting to live their lives Palestinians!


----------



## GHook93

Perham said:


> I bet 80% of Iranian people share the same hatred toward Arabs as you have at a level that can be considered as racism. the same goes with Arabs, they hate us too.


Very true!



> we never had any problems with jews.


I have said it before the Persian have by far been the best to the Jews than anyother people!



> even if it was not Cyrus, the great, the jew culture would have been destroyed years ago.


Maybe not destroyed, but possibly faded away. After the Babloyians (Iraqis) conquered Israel/Judea and destroyed the first temple. It was Cyrus the Great the retook Israel from the Babaloyians (sp?) and allowed the Jews to return in great numbers, he allowed freedom of religion (a millenium before its time), allowed the great temple to be rebuilt and gave the Jews nearly automous rule in Israel. Cyrus completely lived up to the Great part (unlike that Alexander character)!



> I think Iranians, Israelis and Arabs, all are on the wrong sides of the equation here! that's all USA's fault, and God knows how we can fix this!


Turkey has a role for ruling over the lands for so long and destroying the identity of the people, Britian and France have a role for the way they handled things. The US has a role for the way they handled the Shah, built up Sadam and they took him out. But I think the Arabs and the Persians have they high stake int he chaos themselves.


----------



## DavidS

Perham said:


> you know much less about my country than I know about your country, so don't give me speech about how my country is and how your country is. people overthrown the puppet dictator, and regained their independence, and they will never go back to those days when we should have got US permission for our internal affairs. sorry, but that's an impossible dream. future is so bright for Iranians, unless US ruins it with a war. and honestly, I don't see any threats by Israel. US government in these 8 years has proved that he's the biggest enemy of independence of third world countries, and biggest threat in our path of success.



Believe me, as long as you continue to let the fundamentalist Ayotallahs rule over you, you have much less freedom today than you did 50 years ago. I don't support a US-installed puppet government in Iran. I support an Iranian elected government that supports religious freedom and human rights in Iran. You don't have that now and you thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence, but your Grand Ayotallah is an incarnation of Satan himself. Of course, you would never be able to say that in Iran, because if you did, you would be killed.

*People charged for criticizing Ali Khamenei*

 Insulting the Leader is a crime in the Islamic Republic of Iran, and Khamenei, who has been called "notoriously thin-skinned,"[15] has not been hesitant in seeing this law enforced against journalists and writers in Iran. Even family members are not immune, as his younger brother, the reformist cleric Hadi Khamenei, was "brutally beaten ... after a sermon in which he criticized the powers of the Supreme Leader," by Basij militia loyal to him.[15] Some writers, journalists and politicians who have been charged with "insulting Ali Khamenei" include:


Ahmad Zeidabadi[49]
Abdollah Nouri[50]
Mojtaba Saminejad[51]
Arash Sigarchi[52]
Freedom? What freedom? You're a chained dog in the corner. At least 40% of Iran is below the poverty line. Iran Economy 2008, CIA World Factbook

So you can claim that Iran is a great country, but 26 million people who live in Iran may disagree with you. Incredible, isn't it? You have your religion, your Qu'uran, your mosques, but you don't have the basic needs of human life.


----------



## Sunni Man

DavidS said:


> Believe me, as long as you continue to let the fundamentalist Ayotallahs rule over you, you have much less freedom today than you did 50 years ago. .


You are such an idiot DavidS

50 years ago the Iranian people were being terrorized and murdered by the U.S. installed puppet dictator the Shah of Iran.

His brutal government used the notorious SAVAK Iranian intelligence agency to kidnapp and murder hundreds of thousands of Iranian people..

The Iranian people finally took back their country from the Shah.

Now Iran is a Free country with the government of THEIR choice!!


----------



## Perham

DavidS said:


> Believe me, as long as you continue to let the fundamentalist Ayotallahs rule over you, you have much less freedom today than you did 50 years ago. I don't support a US-installed puppet government in Iran. I support an Iranian elected government that supports religious freedom and human rights in Iran. You don't have that now and you thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence, but your Grand Ayotallah is an incarnation of Satan himself. Of course, you would never be able to say that in Iran, because if you did, you would be killed.
> 
> *People charged for criticizing Ali Khamenei*
> 
> Insulting the Leader is a crime in the Islamic Republic of Iran, and Khamenei, who has been called "notoriously thin-skinned,"[15] has not been hesitant in seeing this law enforced against journalists and writers in Iran. Even family members are not immune, as his younger brother, the reformist cleric Hadi Khamenei, was "brutally beaten ... after a sermon in which he criticized the powers of the Supreme Leader," by Basij militia loyal to him.[15] Some writers, journalists and politicians who have been charged with "insulting Ali Khamenei" include:
> 
> 
> Ahmad Zeidabadi[49]
> Abdollah Nouri[50]
> Mojtaba Saminejad[51]
> Arash Sigarchi[52]
> Freedom? What freedom? You're a chained dog in the corner. At least 40% of Iran is below the poverty line. Iran Economy 2008, CIA World Factbook
> 
> So you can claim that Iran is a great country, but 26 million people who live in Iran may disagree with you. Incredible, isn't it? You have your religion, your Qu'uran, your mosques, but you don't have the basic needs of human life.



you're not better. I don't need to give you a link on what happened to American economy this, do I? at least, our government doesn't keep us ignorant about world affairs by using mass media. and about the journalists you named, everybody here knows that they were getting paid by US to propagandize against government. you wanna argue with me on our internal affairs? good luck with that!


----------



## AllieBaba

Diuretic said:


> Thanks for that Perham, it's a valuable insight.  I think it's important for those of us outside Iran to see things in perspective....in fact we can all defy our governments by finding out things from individuals without the government filters, simply exchanging messages between and amongst individuals is a great thing.  More power to us little folks



Our government doesn't prevent us from doing that, obviously, so there is no "defiance" required.


----------



## AllieBaba

Perham said:


> you know much less about my country than I know about your country, so don't give me speech about how my country is and how your country is. people overthrown the puppet dictator, and regained their independence, and they will never go back to those days when we should have got US permission for our internal affairs. sorry, but that's an impossible dream. future is so bright for Iranians, unless US ruins it with a war. and honestly, I don't see any threats by Israel. US government in these 8 years has proved that he's the biggest enemy of independence of third world countries, and biggest threat in our path of success.



Yeah, we certainly messed up the "independence" of Iraq.

What are the other third world countries whose independence we have messed up?


----------



## DavidS

Perham said:


> you're not better. I don't need to give you a link on what happened to American economy this, do I? at least, our government doesn't keep us ignorant about world affairs by using mass media. and about the journalists you named, everybody here knows that they were getting paid by US to propagandize against government. you wanna argue with me on our internal affairs? good luck with that!



My friend, I'm not saying we're better or worse. I'm saying through the power of change, you can become a democracy and give yourselves freedoms you've only dreamed of. Our economy took a wrong turn on a very, very long road...under Obama we'll get back on the highway to prosperity. A recession in America means that our purchasing power decreases by an amount of your ENTIRE GDP - we just passed a bill in Congress for $700 billion, which is 98% of your GDP. People have the freedom to make money doing any job they want to do. Right now, I can quit my job and with my experience become a graphic designer. I can make a salary which is based off of the value I am to the corporation and what the market price is for my job, save up money, and buy a home anywhere I want to, or buy land and build my own home with enough money. 

This is the freedom that America has given me and everyone else who lives in America. This is freedom YOU and everyone you love and you care about can have one day if you're ever brave enough to overthrow the totoleterian religious dictator, the Grand Ayotollah and install a pariliament government. You don't have to ask America permission, you don't have to ask anyone permission, you can do as you like... but I'm willing to bet you know someone who is very poor. Wouldn't you like a better life for them? Unlike Americans, your country doesn't allow you to change from being poor to rich. I've been both. I've been so dirt poor that I would WISH for poverty. And I'm not, by any means rich right now, but I can be if I choose to be. Can you say that?


----------



## DavidS

Sunni Man said:


> You are such an idiot DavidS
> 
> 50 years ago the Iranian people were being terrorized and murdered by the U.S. installed puppet dictator the Shah of Iran.
> 
> His brutal government used the notorious SAVAK Iranian intelligence agency to kidnapp and murder hundreds of thousands of Iranian people..
> 
> The Iranian people finally took back their country from the Shah.
> 
> Now Iran is a Free country with the government of THEIR choice!!



I don't defend the Shah. The Shah was a horrible, ruthless leader, on par with Stalin. But Iran didn't do themselves much better by putting in a religious dictator. The President of Iran holds about as much power as you or I do in American government. The real power lies with the Grand Ayotollah.


----------



## Perham

DavidS said:


> My friend, I'm not saying we're better or worse. I'm saying through the power of change, you can become a democracy and give yourselves freedoms you've only dreamed of. Our economy took a wrong turn on a very, very long road...under Obama we'll get back on the highway to prosperity. A recession in America means that our purchasing power decreases by an amount of your ENTIRE GDP - we just passed a bill in Congress for $700 billion, which is 98% of your GDP. People have the freedom to make money doing any job they want to do. Right now, I can quit my job and with my experience become a graphic designer. I can make a salary which is based off of the value I am to the corporation and what the market price is for my job, save up money, and buy a home anywhere I want to, or buy land and build my own home with enough money.
> 
> This is the freedom that America has given me and everyone else who lives in America. This is freedom YOU and everyone you love and you care about can have one day if you're ever brave enough to overthrow the totoleterian religious dictator, the Grand Ayotollah and install a pariliament government. You don't have to ask America permission, you don't have to ask anyone permission, you can do as you like... but I'm willing to bet you know someone who is very poor. Wouldn't you like a better life for them? Unlike Americans, your country doesn't allow you to change from being poor to rich. I've been both. I've been so dirt poor that I would WISH for poverty. And I'm not, by any means rich right now, but I can be if I choose to be. Can you say that?



I was writing a hot-headed response to your post, I just ignored it. you're so misinformed about how Iran actually is, and it's not your fault, it's your media's fault. just for the last part, I born in an average family. I became financially independent from my family when I was 16, and while I'm still 21, I have a fortune and a very good job, I have few assets and I'm looking forward to my first billion tomans (~ 1 million dollars) in a few years. that's quite like living the Ameri...err... Iranian Dream! 

p.s. you could have been a very good _preacher_. (you aren't now, are you?!)


----------



## Perham

AllieBaba said:


> Yeah, we certainly messed up the "independence" of Iraq.
> 
> What are the other third world countries whose independence we have messed up?



Chile, Cuba, Panama, Iran, Pakistan, Vietnam, South Korea. just off the top of my mind. and you yourself created the mess of Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting Sadam and creating Taliban.


----------



## DiveCon

Perham said:


> Chile, Cuba, Panama, Iran, Pakistan, Vietnam, South Korea. just off the top of my mind. and you yourself created the mess of Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting Sadam and creating Taliban.


all those countries are independent
and we had nothing to do with Saddam's rise to power
or the taliban


----------



## DavidS

Perham said:


> I was writing a hot-headed response to your post, I just ignored it. you're so misinformed about how Iran actually is, and it's not your fault, it's your media's fault. just for the last part, I born in an average family. I became financially independent from my family when I was 16, and while I'm still 21, I have a fortune and a very good job, I have few assets and I'm looking forward to my first billion tomans (~ 1 million dollars) in a few years. that's quite like living the Ameri...err... Iranian Dream!
> 
> p.s. you could have been a very good _preacher_. (you aren't now, are you?!)



So the media is lying that you can't buy land in Iran? The media is lying that the Grand Ayotollah has people beaten or killed for insulting him?

Please, I'm all ears. Why don't you tell us how Iran truly is? So far all you've done is refute what I've said, you haven't offered anything substantive in response.


----------



## AllieBaba

I don't recall creating the Taliban.
Was I asleep?

And I was under the impression we gave Panama its independence...is that what you mean when you say "screwed up" someone's independence?

Cuba? Are you serious?


----------



## Perham

AllieBaba said:


> I don't recall creating the Taliban.
> Was I asleep?
> 
> And I was under the impression we gave Panama its independence...is that what you mean when you say "screwed up" someone's independence?
> 
> Cuba? Are you serious?



BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Al-Qaeda's origins and links



> During the anti-Soviet jihad Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA.



BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Timeline: Al-Qaeda



> As Soviet troops withdraw from Afghanistan, Osama Bin Laden and other Arab fighters from the US-backed mujahideen movement form "al-Qaeda", which in Arabic means "the base". The network begins looking for new jihads (holy wars).



Manuel Noriega - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Noriega worked with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from the late 1950s to the 1980s, and was on the CIA payroll for much of this time, although the relationship had not become contractual until 1967.




CubaâUnited States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> After some rebel successes in Cuba's second war of independence in 1897, U.S. President William McKinley offered to buy Cuba for $300 million.[8] Rejection of the offer, and an explosion that sunk the American battleship USS Maine in Havana harbor, led to the Spanish-American war. In Cuba the war became known as "the U.S. intervention in Cuba's War of Independence".[2] On 10 December 1898 Spain and the United States signed the Treaty of Paris and, in accordance with the treaty, Spain renounced all rights to Cuba. The treaty put an end to the Spanish Empire in the Americas and marked the beginning of United States expansion and long-term political dominance in the region. Immediately after the signing of the treaty, the US-owned "Island of Cuba Real Estate Company" opened for business to sell Cuban land to Americans.[9] U.S. military rule of the island lasted until 1902 when Cuba was finally granted formal independence.



This Day in History 1959: Cuban dictator Batista falls from power



> The United States government had supported the American-friendly Batista regime since it came to power in 1952. After Fidel Castro, together with a handful of supporters that included the professional revolutionary Che Guevara, landed in Cuba to unseat Batista in December 1956, the U.S. continued to support Batista. Suspicious of what they believed to be Castro's leftist ideology and fearful that his ultimate goals might include attacks on U.S. investments and properties in Cuba, American officials were nearly unanimous in opposing his revolutionary movement.
> 
> Cuban support for Castro's revolution, however, spread and grew in the late 1950s, partially due to his personal charisma and nationalistic rhetoric, but also because of the increasingly rampant corruption, brutality, and inefficiency within the Batista government. This reality forced U.S. policymakers to slowly withdraw their support from Batista and begin a search in Cuba for an alternative to both the dictator and Castro.




the most embarrassing part:
United States intervention in Chile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> In the Chilean coup of 1973, Augusto Pinochet rose to power while Allende died. While the CIA itself, staunchly denies involvement in the coup, declassified documents relating to the military coup indicate a direct link between U.S. intelligence operatives and coup instigators in Chile.[9] [10][11]
> 
> While U.S. government hostility to the Allende government is unquestioned, the U.S. role in the coup itself remains a highly controversial matter. Claims of their direct involvement in the actual coup are neither proven nor contradicted by publicly available documentary evidence; many potentially relevant documents still remain classified. However, US Senate inquiries following the establishment of Pinochet's regime found that the US did exert its influence upon the Chilean economy in such a way as to create conditions favouring a coup[12] Regarding Pinochet's rise to power, the CIA undertook a comprehensive analysis of its records and individual memoirs as well as conducting interviews with former agents, and concluded in a report issued in 2000 that the CIA "actively supported the military junta after the overthrow of Allende but did not assist Pinochet to assume the Presidency."[13] Nonetheless, this is contradicted by the declassified documents involving the CIA, in which covert operatives were inserted in Chile, in order to prevent a Marxist government from arising and subsequent propagandist operations which were designed to push Chilean president Eduardo Frei to support "a military coup which would prevent Allende from taking office on 3 November."[14][15]
> 
> The CIA was notified by contacts of the impending Pinochet coup two days in advance, but contends it "played no direct role in" the coup. On September 16, 1973, after Pinochet had assumed power, the following exchange about the coup took place between U.S. National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger and President Richard Nixon:
> 
> Nixon: Nothing new of any importance or is there?
> Kissinger: Nothing of very great consequence. The Chilean thing is getting consolidated and of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-Communist government has been overthrown.
> Nixon: Isn't that something. Isn't that something.
> Kissinger: I mean instead of celebrating  in the Eisenhower period we would be heroes.
> Nixon: Well we didn't  as you know  our hand doesn't show on this one though.
> Kissinger: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [garbled] created the conditions as great as possible.
> Nixon: That is right. And that is the way it is going to be played.[16]
> 
> There is no evidence that the U.S. instigated or provided material support to Pinochet's successful coup in 1973, but the Nixon administration was undoubtedly pleased with the outcome; Nixon had spoken with disappointment about the failed coup earlier that year. The U.S. did provide material support to the military regime after the coup, although it criticized them in public. A document released by the CIA in 2000 titled "CIA Activities in Chile" revealed that the CIA actively supported the military junta after the overthrow of Allende and that it made many of Pinochet's officers into paid contacts of the CIA or U.S. military, even though some were known to be involved in human rights abuses.[17] The CIA's publicly announced policies on paid informants have since been modified to exclude those involved in such abuses, but at the time they were evaluated on a case-by-case basis and measured with the value of the information they provided.
> 
> [edit] Quotes
> 
> * "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."  Henry Kissinger [18]
> 
> * "Not a nut or bolt shall reach Chile under Allende. Once Allende comes to power we shall do all within our power to condemn Chile and all Chileans to utmost deprivation and poverty."  Edward M. Korry, U.S. Ambassador to Chile, upon hearing of Allende's election. [2]
> 
> * "Make the economy scream [in Chile to] prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him"  Richard Nixon, orders to CIA director Richard Helms on September 15, 1970.[19]
> 
> * "It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. It would be much preferable to have this transpire prior to 24 October but efforts in this regard will continue vigorously beyond this date. We are to continue to generate maximum pressure toward this end, utilizing every appropriate resource. It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG and American hand be well hidden..."  A communique to the CIA base in Chile, issued on October 16, 1970.[20]
> 
> * "I think this is in the best interest of the people in Chile, and, certainly, in our best interest."  Gerald Ford at a presidential news conference in reference to U.S. operations in Chile.[21]
> 
> * "With respect to your earlier comments about Chile in the 1970s and what happened with Mr. Allende, it is not a part of American history that we're proud of."  U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in a 2003 interview on the U.S. Black Entertainment Television network, when asked by high school student James Doubek why the United States saw itself as the "moral superior" in the Iraq conflict, citing the Chilean coup as an example of U.S. intervention that went against the wishes of the local population.[22]





> The U.S. provided material support to the military regime after the coup, although criticizing it in public. A document released by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in 2000, titled "CIA Activities in Chile", revealed that the CIA actively supported the military junta after the overthrow of Allende and that it made many of Pinochet's officers into paid contacts of the CIA or U.S. military, even though some were known to be involved in human rights abuses.




1953 Iranian coup d'Ã©tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The 1953 Iranian coup d'état deposed the government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq and his cabinet, and was effected by Gen. Fazlollah Zahedi, SIS, and CIA agents working with anti-government civilians and army officers. The attempt to encourage a coup d'état, Operation Ajax required CIA man Kermit Roosevelt, Jr.'s bribing government officials, the news media, and businessmen, [1] to allow imposing retired Gen. Fazlollah Zahedi and Imperial Guard Col. Nematollah Nassiri as the government.[2]
> 
> This deposition of a formally-elected civil government was "a critical event in post-war world history", because it re-installed the unpopular Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, leading a pro-Western dictatorship, that, in the event, contributed to his deposition by the anti-Western Islamic Republic in 1979. [3]
> 
> In the U.S., Operation Ajax was originally viewed as a triumph of covert action, but in 2000 Madeleine Albright, Secretary of State to President Bill Clinton, made an apology to the people of Iran, calling the coup a "setback for democratic government" in Iran, [4] and one journalist has even described it as having left "a haunting and terrible legacy". [5] The United Kingdom has never apologized for its role in the coup.



Dan De Luce: The spectre of Operation Ajax | Politics | The Guardian



> Ignoring international law, Britain and the US opted for the high-risk strategy of regime change in order to pre-empt a volatile enemy in the Middle East. It was not Iraq, however, that was in the firing line but Iran, and the aftershocks are still being felt.
> 
> Fifty years ago this week, the CIA and the British SIS orchestrated a coup d'etat that toppled the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mossadegh. The prime minister and his nationalist supporters in parliament roused Britain's ire when they nationalised the oil industry in 1951, which had previously been exclusively controlled by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Mossadegh argued that Iran should begin profiting from its vast oil reserves.




Saddam Hussein - United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Hussein's first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating
> then Iraqi Prime Minister Abdul Karim Qassim.



CIA activities in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> In 1968, again with the alleged backing of the CIA, Rahman Arif was overthrown by Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr of the Baath Party, bringing Saddam Hussein to the threshold of power.[5] To carry out the coup, Ba'athists donned military uniforms, attacked the presidential palace and occupied it. The president surrendered immediately. "You're going with me to the airport because you're leaving this country", said Saddam Hussein to the prime minister as Saddam held a gun to his head.


----------



## Perham

DavidS said:


> So the media is lying that you can't buy land in Iran?



you kidding?! Iran is ruled by a combination of sharia law, what we had before the revolution and French laws. private ownership is fully supported in Iran and everybody can buy and sell land. at least, watch your own media, man!




> The media is lying that the Grand Ayotollah has people beaten or killed for insulting him?



yes. he doesn't do any of this. insulting a government official is prohibited by law in Iran. therefore, anyone doing that, is knowingly opposing the law, and is a criminal, and should be punished, although many get away with it unpunished. although this law is not fair, but it's a law of Iran, and everyone should honor it, until it changes.



> Please, I'm all ears. Why don't you tell us how Iran truly is?



your ears don't work on internet forums. you should _read_ my posts by your eyes.



> So far all you've done is refute what I've said, you haven't offered anything substantive in response.



sorry, I'm answering questions here. I can't describe the whole Iran in a thread, it needs lots of time and effort. I should sit here and type for years. so, if you have any questions, I'm ready to give you an honest answer.


----------



## Neubarth

Perham Though most of what you  post to below is correct, I sincerely doubt that all of it is for the simple reason that the posts as quoted come from suspect sources.  It is a fact that the United States did many things in their paranoid attempt to stop the spread of World Communism.  We could have done far better had we tried to direct the smaller communist governments towards Socialism and even paid them to be socialist.  It would have been a lot less expensive than fighting the Korean War (with the United Nations) and the Viet Nam War with a few allies like Australia and New Zealand.  Our national paranoia is an embarassment.  Hopefully we are past that stage in our history and can move on.  Now we just have to deal with Throat slitters, suicide bombers, Train, Plane and Bus Bombers, and plane crashers in the name of Allah and Radical Islam.  Together we have to do something about that.  We are not paranoid for fearing that nonsense and wanting to stop it where ever it is found.  




Perham said:


> BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Al-Qaeda's origins and links
> 
> 
> 
> BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Timeline: Al-Qaeda
> 
> 
> 
> Manuel Noriega - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CubaâUnited States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> This Day in History 1959: Cuban dictator Batista falls from power
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the most embarrassing part:
> United States intervention in Chile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1953 Iranian coup d'Ã©tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Dan De Luce: The spectre of Operation Ajax | Politics | The Guardian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saddam Hussein - United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> CIA activities in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## eots

The Problem Reaction Solution Paradigm  (The Hegelian Dialectic)
1) The government creates or exploits a problem blaming it on others
2) The people react by asking the government for help willing to give up their rights
3) The government offers the solution that was planned long before the crisis


Historical Evidence of Problem Reaction Solution


The Problem Reaction Solution Paradigm


----------



## B94

Is this true that Iran has student groups that claim that more than 70,000 people throughout Iran have registered as volunteer suicide bombers since Israel launched its assault against Hamas-ruled Gaza on Dec. 27?


Iran bans volunteers from fighting Israel - Yahoo! News


----------



## Agnapostate

My grandparents were still living in Guatemala when Arbenz was toppled, Babble. Want to claim it didn't happen?


----------



## Perham

B94 said:


> Is this true that Iran has student groups that claim that more than 70,000 people throughout Iran have registered as volunteer suicide bombers since Israel launched its assault against Hamas-ruled Gaza on Dec. 27?
> 
> 
> Iran bans volunteers from fighting Israel - Yahoo! News



70000?! no way. I saw the announcement by extremist groups on their board in our college, but all of them who signed up can't fill a street. 1000 at best.


----------



## Agnapostate

I doubt that so many would be willing to aid Arabs and Sunnis, anyway.


----------



## Gunny

Agnapostate said:


> My grandparents were still living in Guatemala when Arbenz was toppled, Babble. Want to claim it didn't happen?



Who gives a fuck?  My ancestors were living in Texas and Alabama when the US invaded.  So what?

Your arguments stink.  The world was a different place when most of this shit you're trying to judge by today's standards took place in context with the time in which it happened.

Just more dishonest relativism from you.  Can't say I'm a bit surprised.

This is the US.  We are _supposed to be_ about us first.  Any other reasoning isn't reasoning at all, it's stupidity.  If you want to be about somewhere else first, pack your trash and drag your seabag THERE, and good riddance.


----------



## GHook93

Perham said:


> you kidding?! Iran is ruled by a combination of sharia law, what we had before the revolution and French laws. private ownership is fully supported in Iran and everybody can buy and sell land. at least, watch your own media, man!
> 
> yes. he doesn't do any of this. insulting a government official is prohibited by law in Iran. therefore, anyone doing that, is knowingly opposing the law, and is a criminal, and should be punished, although many get away with it unpunished. although this law is not fair, but it's a law of Iran, and everyone should honor it, until it changes.
> 
> your ears don't work on internet forums. you should _read_ my posts by your eyes.
> 
> sorry, I'm answering questions here. I can't describe the whole Iran in a thread, it needs lots of time and effort. I should sit here and type for years. so, if you have any questions, I'm ready to give you an honest answer.



David he is right! I have a customer of mine that is an America, but owns a home in Iran!


----------



## GHook93

Neubarth said:


> Perham Though most of what you  post to below is correct, I sincerely doubt that all of it is for the simple reason that the posts as quoted come from suspect sources.  It is a fact that the United States did many things in their paranoid attempt to stop the spread of World Communism.  We could have done far better had we tried to direct the smaller communist governments towards Socialism and even paid them to be socialist.  It would have been a lot less expensive than fighting the Korean War (with the United Nations) and the Viet Nam War with a few allies like Australia and New Zealand.  Our national paranoia is an embarassment.  Hopefully we are past that stage in our history and can move on.  Now we just have to deal with Throat slitters, suicide bombers, Train, Plane and Bus Bombers, and plane crashers in the name of Allah and Radical Islam.  Together we have to do something about that.  We are not paranoid for fearing that nonsense and wanting to stop it where ever it is found.



You know we should have pushed more countries towards communism! Since we have we know have global competition! China is starting to kick butt since they opened up to private business and free markets, Japan, India, Brazil, Mother Russia, Mexico, Singapore etc. We should have let the USSR promote communism in these countries and they could have failed like the USSR and Am,erica would be in front of the world economics instead of falling in line with emerging power houses in BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) and Japan!


----------



## GHook93

B94 said:


> Is this true that Iran has student groups that claim that more than 70,000 people throughout Iran have registered as volunteer suicide bombers since Israel launched its assault against Hamas-ruled Gaza on Dec. 27?
> 
> 
> Iran bans volunteers from fighting Israel - Yahoo! News



One underlining thing you missed in a great article. There is a rife betwen Grant Ayatollah and Aladouchbag! More good news in the reformers taking over!


----------



## Agnapostate

Gunny said:


> Who gives a fuck?  My ancestors were living in Texas and Alabama when the US invaded.  So what?
> 
> Your arguments stink.  The world was a different place when most of this shit you're trying to judge by today's standards took place in context with the time in which it happened.
> 
> Just more dishonest relativism from you.  Can't say I'm a bit surprised.
> 
> This is the US.  We are _supposed to be_ about us first.  Any other reasoning isn't reasoning at all, it's stupidity.  If you want to be about somewhere else first, pack your trash and drag your seabag THERE, and good riddance.



"Relativism"? I'm a preference utilitarian, not a relativist. Unless the invasion of Alabama and Texas took place sometime in the past...um...century, I don't think they're really comparable to U.S. intervention in other countries. 

National sovereignty is idiocy. I look forward to the day when nation-states topple.


----------



## Paulie

Agnapostate said:


> "Relativism"? I'm a preference utilitarian, not a relativist. Unless the invasion of Alabama and Texas took place sometime in the past...um...century, I don't think they're really comparable to U.S. intervention in other countries.
> 
> National sovereignty is idiocy. I look forward to the day when nation-states topple.



Yet on the youth rights board you posted a link to, you argued your case for voting rights based on the constitution's content.

The constitution is good enough for you to try and use for your personal positions, but not quite good enough to stand for America's independence and sovereignty.

Understood.


----------



## Nexus

DavidS said:


> Iran was once a flourishing country. Iran could have been the America of the Middle East.



Indeed, but unfortunately, you seem to forget the fact that your country shattered Iran's fledging democracy and replaced its democratically-elected government with the U.S.-backed ruthless dictator, the Shah, all in the name of oil.  None of this would have happened if your country had not overthrown Iran's democratic government.


----------



## GHook93

Nexus said:


> Indeed, but unfortunately, you seem to forget the fact that your country shattered Iran's fledging democracy and replaced its democratically-elected government with the U.S.-backed ruthless dictator, the Shah, all in the name of oil.  None of this would have happened if your country had not overthrown Iran's democratic government.



Very true! We screwed up the grand Persian State, but that was back int he 50s, but now they seem to be doing a fine job of that themselves!


----------



## DiveCon

Nexus said:


> Indeed, but unfortunately, you seem to forget the fact that your country shattered Iran's fledging democracy and replaced its democratically-elected government with the U.S.-backed ruthless dictator, the Shah, all in the name of oil.  None of this would have happened if your country had not overthrown Iran's democratic government.


the Shah was ALREADY the Shah
we replaced NOTHING


----------



## Anguille

DiveCon said:


> the Shah was ALREADY the Shah
> we replaced NOTHING


The US did not want Iran to nationalize oil production and participated in the coup which restored the Shah to power. Since then Iran has had no democractiv governments.


----------



## GHook93

He was a secular, strong nationalist, strong pro-democracy and anti-communist leader that was overthrown by the Shah. He was the democratically elected PM of Iran before the Shah. He feel out of favor with UK and US, when he nationalized Iran's oil pulling it away from BP (British Petroleum). Therefore the UK and US assisted the Shah in removing him.

So the question remains:
(1) Would Iran have been better off with Mosaddeq over the Shah and later Ayatollahs? I think that is easy to answer.
(2) If the Shah didn't overthrown him, would the 1979 Islamic revolution have taken place, since after all Mosaddeq was a secular modernist?
(3) What would Iran have looked like today if Mosaddeq would have remained in power and the Islamic revolution hadn't taken place?


----------



## Kevin_Kennedy

DiveCon said:


> the Shah was ALREADY the Shah
> we replaced NOTHING



We helped return him to power after he fled Iran.


----------



## DiveCon

:sigh:
the Shah(a title, not a name) was ALREADY Shah
we restored NOTHING
all we did was to ADVISE the Shah to do what he already had the authority to do in Iran


----------



## GHook93

Perham,

Zoroaster was the original religion of the Perian empire up until the Arab Crusaders conquerred Iran. Some of your greatest classical Persian were Zoroastrians, such as Cyrus the Great. So why the great hatred amongst Iranians of the Zoroastrians? Why were Persians who followed Iranians ancient and really founding religion so persecuted by the Iranians since the Arab conquest of Persia? I mean if Cyrus the Great was alive now, when the Iranians persecute him for being a Zoroastrian.

Many people don't know, but religion persecution of the Zoroastrians rivals even that of the Jews!


----------



## Tech_Esq

GHook93 said:


> He was a secular, strong nationalist, strong pro-democracy and anti-communist leader that was overthrown by the Shah. He was the democratically elected PM of Iran before the Shah. He feel out of favor with UK and US, when he nationalized Iran's oil pulling it away from BP (British Petroleum). Therefore the UK and US assisted the Shah in removing him.
> 
> So the question remains:
> (1) Would Iran have been better off with Mosaddeq over the Shah and later Ayatollahs? I think that is easy to answer.
> (2) If the Shah didn't overthrown him, would the 1979 Islamic revolution have taken place, since after all Mosaddeq was a secular modernist?
> (3) What would Iran have looked like today if Mosaddeq would have remained in power and the Islamic revolution hadn't taken place?



I'm no scholar on this place in history, but if he was really everything you claim him to be, I seriously doubt we would have been interested in overthrowing him just for BP's sake. Our priority was containment of the USSR. Iran was an important bulwark in that effort. I seriously doubt we would risk total destabilization of an important country to our interest in arresting the spread of communism with such a speculative and dangerous effort. Just for BP.

This smells like conspiracy BS to me.


----------



## GHook93

Tech_Esq said:


> I'm no scholar on this place in history, but if he was really everything you claim him to be, I seriously doubt we would have been interested in overthrowing him just for BP's sake. Our priority was containment of the USSR. Iran was an important bulwark in that effort. I seriously doubt we would risk total destabilization of an important country to our interest in arresting the spread of communism with such a speculative and dangerous effort. Just for BP.
> 
> This smells like conspiracy BS to me.



Its common knowledge that the US and UK help the Shah take power!


----------



## DiveCon

GHook93 said:


> Its common knowledge that the US and UK help the Shah take power!


the Shah was already IN power before Op Ajax
Shah is a title, not a name
he was already Shah and had the authority to do what he did, all we did was to advise him to do so
that is NOT overthrowing anyone


----------



## Perham

GHook93 said:


> Perham,
> 
> Zoroaster was the original religion of the Perian empire up until the Arab Crusaders conquerred Iran. Some of your greatest classical Persian were Zoroastrians, such as Cyrus the Great. So why the great hatred amongst Iranians of the Zoroastrians? Why were Persians who followed Iranians ancient and really founding religion so persecuted by the Iranians since the Arab conquest of Persia? I mean if Cyrus the Great was alive now, when the Iranians persecute him for being a Zoroastrian.
> 
> Many people don't know, but religion persecution of the Zoroastrians rivals even that of the Jews!



I don't know what are your sources, but Zoroastrianism is an official religion in Iran, they have a parliament seat for themselves, and are so accepted in the society, as they're often so kind and merciful people. I haven't had a Zoroastrian friend yet, but I know that they're well known for their great behavior toward other people. also, we, Iranian Muslims, share many traditions with Zoroastrians, that is well rooted in our culture, but has a religious aspect for Zoroastrians. Iranians are so proud of their past, specially their golden past before the islam, and nothing can change that.


----------



## Perham

DiveCon said:


> :sigh:
> the Shah(a title, not a name) was ALREADY Shah
> we restored NOTHING
> all we did was to ADVISE the Shah to do what he already had the authority to do in Iran



excuse me, who had given that stupid asshole his authority to decide for 30 million people?


----------



## DiveCon

Perham said:


> excuse me, who had given that stupid asshole his authority to decide for 30 million people?


how should i know
its your country, dont you know your own history?
oh, i know, you only know what the Ayatollahs allow you to be taught


----------



## Perham

DiveCon said:


> how should i know
> its your country, dont you know your own history?
> oh, i know, you only know what the Ayatollahs allow you to be taught



oh, it's my country, right? so shut up and listen, if it weren't for those CIA assholes, we had democracy 20 years before the revolution, with much less pain and suffering. every problem we had in last century was because one of western countries wanted influence in Iran. you almost destroyed Iran. people took it back, and now you're so upset because you don't have any influence in our country. sorry pal, but as you said, this is our country. and btw, if you want oil, you can buy it. no one gives it free anymore, at least after 1979.


----------



## DiveCon

Perham said:


> oh, it's my country, right? so shut up and listen, if it weren't for those CIA assholes, we had democracy 20 years before the revolution, with much less pain and suffering. every problem we had in last century was because one of western countries wanted influence in Iran. you almost destroyed Iran. people took it back, and now you're so upset because you don't have any influence in our country. sorry pal, but as you said, this is our country. and btw, if you want oil, you can buy it. no one gives it free anymore, at least after 1979.


wow, you are a fucking moron
no one EVER gave oil for free
and again, the Shah was ALREADY SHAH
we didnt make him Shah
someone in your country did


----------



## FistyTheBadger

Perham said:


> excuse me, who had given that stupid asshole his authority to decide for 30 million people?


That is not a valid response.


----------



## FistyTheBadger

Perham said:


> oh, it's my country, right? so shut up and listen, if it weren't for those CIA assholes, we had democracy 20 years before the revolution, with much less pain and suffering. every problem we had in last century was because one of western countries wanted influence in Iran. you almost destroyed Iran. people took it back, and now you're so upset because you don't have any influence in our country. sorry pal, but as you said, this is our country. and btw, if you want oil, you can buy it. no one gives it free anymore, at least after 1979.


Every problem?  That sounds a lot like superpropaganda.


----------



## elvis

DiveCon said:


> wow, you are a fucking moron
> no one EVER gave oil for free
> and again, the Shah was ALREADY SHAH
> we didnt make him Shah
> someone in your country did



The US overthrew Mousadeq in 1958 and REINSTALLED the Shah.  Even though Mousadeq was democratically elected, he was too far left for the US.  The truman doctrine at work.


----------



## DiveCon

elvis3577 said:


> The US overthrew Mousadeq in 1958 and REINSTALLED the Shah.  Even though Mousadeq was democratically elected, he was too far left for the US.  The truman doctrine at work.


that is incorrect
the Shah was already the Shah


----------



## Kevin_Kennedy

The Shah was already Shah but he was not in power, and the people clearly did not want him as their leader since he felt it was necessary for him to flee the country.  The U.S. helped Great Britain get rid of Mossadeq and return the Shah, a military dictator, back to his throne.


----------



## DiveCon

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> The Shah was already Shah but he was not in power, and the people clearly did not want him as their leader since he felt it was necessary for him to flee the country.  The U.S. helped Great Britain get rid of Mossadeq and return the Shah, a military dictator, back to his throne.


you really should look for and read the ACTUAL op ajax documents
i have
the Shah was made Shah by virture of birth, his dad was Shah before him
no one put him in power
it was his birthright based on the royalty laws
all we did was to advise him to do what he already had the authority to do under the existing laws of Iran


----------



## Anguille

Gunny said:


> Just more dishonest relativism from you.



"Everything is relative, and only that is absolute." 
  - Auguste Comte


----------



## Kevin_Kennedy

DiveCon said:


> you really should look for and read the ACTUAL op ajax documents
> i have
> the Shah was made Shah by virture of birth, his dad was Shah before him
> no one put him in power
> it was his birthright based on the royalty laws
> all we did was to advise him to do what he already had the authority to do under the existing laws of Iran



He wasn't in power because he had to flee the country, and the people of Iran clearly didn't want him in power.  They chose Mossadeq, but he wasn't politically reliable so the U.S. and Great Britain got rid of him so that the Shah could re-gain his power.


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## DiveCon

Kevin_Kennedy said:


> He wasn't in power because he had to flee the country, and the people of Iran clearly didn't want him in power.  They chose Mossadeq, but he wasn't politically reliable so the U.S. and Great Britain got rid of him so that the Shah could re-gain his power.


that is not correct
had he fled, he would not have had the legal authority to do what he was advised to do
you must be getting your info from the conspiracy nut sites


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## elvis

DiveCon said:


> that is not correct
> had he fled, he would not have had the legal authority to do what he was advised to do
> you must be getting your info from the conspiracy nut sites



No I am taking a class on Terrorism from an expert in the field.  This is not conspiracy.


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## Anguille

DiveCon said:


> you really should look for and read the ACTUAL op ajax documents
> i have
> the Shah was made Shah by virture of birth, his dad was Shah before him
> no one put him in power
> it was his birthright based on the royalty laws
> all we did was to advise him to do what he already had the authority to do under the existing laws of Iran



Yeah, the US was very unhappy to see royalty losing control. 

That's all we cared about. Protecting the god given rights of kings and dictators.


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## elvis

History of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if you want other sources, I'll find them.


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## DiveCon

elvis3577 said:


> No I am taking a class on Terrorism from an expert in the field.  This is not conspiracy.


well, if he is teaching you that about the Shah and Op Ajax, he is WRONG
again, look up the original documents from op ajax and read for yourself


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## DiveCon

Anguille said:


> Yeah, the US was very unhappy to see royalty losing control.
> 
> That's all we cared about. Protecting the god given rights of kings and dictators.


that actually has NOTHING to do with the subject
but thanks for trying


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## DiveCon

elvis3577 said:


> History of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> if you want other sources, I'll find them.


come on, wiki is a weak source and you know it


----------



## elvis

DiveCon said:


> come on, wiki is a weak source and you know it



I said I would get more if you wanted.


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## Anguille

DiveCon said:


> that actually has NOTHING to do with the subject
> but thanks for trying





DiveCon said:


> it was his birthright based on the royalty laws
> all we did was to advise him to do what he already had the authority to do under the existing laws of Iran


.


----------



## DiveCon

Anguille said:


> .


again, i was merely stating the facts
you have a problem with that?


ang, are you trying to state that i was supporting royalty by stating the facts on the matter, or are you just trying to be an asshole, again?


----------



## Anguille

DiveCon said:


> again, i was merely stating the facts
> you have a problem with that?
> 
> 
> ang, are you trying to state that i was supporting royalty by stating the facts on the matter, or are you just trying to be an asshole, again?



When you've calmed down we can talk.


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## FistyTheBadger

Anguille said:


> When you've calmed down we can talk.


The heroin is complaining that you are stoned.


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## DiveCon

Anguille said:


> When you've calmed down we can talk.


i am calm, why are you attempting to derail the conversation?


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## GHook93

Great day for the world, Khatami is running for Iranian President. I just hope Obama is smart enough to engage Iran after Khatami wins. A reformer President of the likes of Khatami with a Reform Parliament would be a ripe situation to repair Iranian/American relations!



> *4. Khatami to Oppose Ahmadinejad in Irans Election *
> 
> Former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami  a frequent critic of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  has announced that he will seek the presidency in Irans June elections.
> 
> Khatami, who was president from 1997 to 2005, is a popular leader in the reformist camp who has indirectly attacked the countrys conservative clerical administration, the Jerusalem Post reports.
> 
> Ahmadinejad is expected to declare his candidacy for a second term.
> 
> As Newsmax reported in December, Ahmadinejad is increasingly unpopular, his economic policies are blamed for 30 percent annual inflation, and his foreign policy has left the country more isolated than at any time in recent memory.
> 
> In a September 2006 speech at Harvard University, Khatami condemned Osama bin Laden for committing crimes in the name of Islam and said Jews have the right to live peacefully, but he skirted the issue of whether they have the right to do so in Israel.
> 
> Some observers have speculated that President Barack Obama may wait until after the election before offering direct negotiations with Iran, in the hope that Ahmadinejad will be replaced


----------



## jillian

Perham said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet he will probably win reelction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nooo way. we make sure of that.
Click to expand...


Will you? That would be interesting. But the question remains will whomever replaces him be more or less reasonable?

BTW, your posts are very interesting. I think I expected more "sunni-ish" posts.


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## Dr Grump

DiveCon said:


> come on, wiki is a weak source and you know it



Actually it is a very good source. If you wish to refute what it says, please feel free to do so, point by point...


----------



## GHook93

jillian said:


> Perham said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet he will probably win reelction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nooo way. we make sure of that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Will you? That would be interesting. But the question remains will whomever replaces him be more or less reasonable?
> 
> BTW, your posts are very interesting. I think I expected more "sunni-ish" posts.
Click to expand...


Khatami proved he was very reasonable! And he looks like the front-runner again!


----------



## GHook93

Dr Grump said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> come on, wiki is a weak source and you know it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it is a very good source. If you wish to refute what it says, please feel free to do so, point by point...
Click to expand...


No wiki can be a good source. Rather if you check the cites made by the authors!


----------



## jillian

GHook93 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perham said:
> 
> 
> 
> nooo way. we make sure of that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will you? That would be interesting. But the question remains will whomever replaces him be more or less reasonable?
> 
> BTW, your posts are very interesting. I think I expected more "sunni-ish" posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Khatami proved he was very reasonable! And he looks like the front-runner again!
Click to expand...


we can hope. maybe people are getting tired of the insanity all around.


----------



## sealybobo

Perham said:


> that was the first thing I did when I joined PF. if you have any questions about Iran, ask, I'll answer. you may want the viewpoint of a 21 year old Iranian living in Tehran.



Hey buddy.  No question.  I have a friend who's Iranian and he just visited.  You guys are just like us.  You don't hate us, just like we don't hate you.  

Chaney is just an asshole. 

Can't wait for Obama to talk to your leaders without "pre conditions".  

Republicans are such assholes.  Do you want them?  You can have them.  We'll take your gays in exchange.  Oh, I forgot, there are no gays in Iran.

Ok, I have one question.  Are their gays in Iran?  Amadenijad said there weren't.  

I get the feeling they just keep


----------



## DiveCon

Dr Grump said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> come on, wiki is a weak source and you know it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it is a very good source. If you wish to refute what it says, please feel free to do so, point by point...
Click to expand...

no, it CAN be a souce, but it is not one unto itself
you actually have to follow up and make sure that what was posted there is actually the truth


----------



## Sunni Man

sealybobo said:


> Perham said:
> 
> 
> 
> that was the first thing I did when I joined PF. if you have any questions about Iran, ask, I'll answer. you may want the viewpoint of a 21 year old Iranian living in Tehran.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey buddy.  No question.  I have a friend who's Iranian and he just visited.  You guys are just like us.  You don't hate us, just like we don't hate you.
> 
> Chaney is just an asshole.
> 
> Can't wait for Obama to talk to your leaders without "pre conditions".
> 
> Republicans are such assholes.  Do you want them?  You can have them.  We'll take your gays in exchange.  Oh, I forgot, there are no gays in Iran.
> 
> Ok, I have one question.  Are their gays in Iran?  Amadenijad said there weren't.
> 
> I get the feeling they just keep
Click to expand...

Just like there are rapists and child molesters in all countries. 

I am sure there are Homos in Iran.

Hopefully they are caught by the police and put in prison where they belong.


----------



## Agnapostate

Paulie said:


> Yet on the youth rights board you posted a link to, you argued your case for voting rights based on the constitution's content.
> 
> The constitution is good enough for you to try and use for your personal positions, but not quite good enough to stand for America's independence and sovereignty.
> 
> Understood.



What relevance has the U.S. Constitution to destabilization of democratically elected governments in other countries? The utilitarian ethical conception is consequentialist; ends matter more than means. So if the Constitution had the general end of furthering progressive freedoms and liberties, it would be acceptable to use it for those means, but if it had the effect of inhibiting them on other grounds, extra-Constitutional means must be sought. There's certainly no contradiction inherent in that, except in the mind of a deontological absolutist.


----------



## GHook93

Agnapostate said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet on the youth rights board you posted a link to, you argued your case for voting rights based on the constitution's content.
> 
> The constitution is good enough for you to try and use for your personal positions, but not quite good enough to stand for America's independence and sovereignty.
> 
> Understood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What relevance has the U.S. Constitution to destabilization of democratically elected governments in other countries? The utilitarian ethical conception is consequentialist; ends matter more than means. So if the Constitution had the general end of furthering progressive freedoms and liberties, it would be acceptable to use it for those means, but if it had the effect of inhibiting them on other grounds, extra-Constitutional means must be sought. There's certainly no contradiction inherent in that, except in the mind of a deontological absolutist.
Click to expand...


Democratically elected government?
LOL, the Iranian President and Parliament are basically figure heads! The Ayatollahs control everything. They are the unelected dictators of the country. The country rises and sets with them!


----------



## Agnapostate

GHook93 said:


> Democratically elected government?
> LOL, the Iranian President and Parliament are basically figure heads! The Ayatollahs control everything. They are the unelected dictators of the country. The country rises and sets with them!



You'll want to refer to the entire thread before making such comments. I was referring to the role of the CIA in deposing Mossadeq, Arbenz, and Allende, and supporting the likes of Somoza, Noriega, Batista, Duvalier, the Shah, etc.


----------

