# Things Many White People Seem To Not Understand



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
 -- Peggy MacIntosh​
White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.

White Privilege is being _able _to watch a movie, read a book and open the front page of a newspaper and assume that unless otherwise indicated, you and every white person whom you know or can imagine could well be the protagonist; you and your race is widely represented and spoken for.  It's also being about to encounter any narrative about non-whites and empathetically dissociate yourself from it.
White Privilege is being _able _to seek legal, financial and medical help without having your race work against you.
White Privilege is living in a world where you are taught that people with your skin tone hold the standard for beauty.
White Privilege is never being told to, “get over slavery”.
White Privilege is having the prevalence and importance of the English language and finding amusement in ridiculing people of color/immigrants for their accents and their difficulty in speaking a language that is not their native tongue.
White Privilege is arrogantly believing that reverse racism actually exists and believing it is something other than racism.
White Privilege is being _able _to stay ignorant to the fact that racial slurs are part of a systematic dehumanization of entire groups of people who are and have historically been subjugated and hated just for being alive.
White Privilege is not having your name turned into an easier-to-say Anglo-Saxon name.
White Privilege is being _able _to fight racism one day, then ignore it the next.
White privilege is having your words and actions attributed to you as an individual, rather than have them reflect members of your race.
White Privilege is being _able _to talk about racism without appearing self-serving.
White Privilege is being _able _to be articulate and well-spoken without people being surprised.
White Privilege is being pulled over or taken aside and knowing that you are not being singled out because of your race/colour.
White Privilege is _not having to_ teach your children to be aware of systematic racism for their own protection.
White Privilege is _not having to_ acknowledge the fact that we live in a system that treats people of color unfairly politically, socially and economically and being able to choose, instead, -- if/when it suits you -- to believe that people of color are inherently less capable.
White Privilege is not having your people and their culture stereotyped and subsequently appropriated, romanticized or eroticized for the gain and pleasure of other white people.
White Privilege is being _able _to ignore the consequences of race.

Now, if as or after you read the list above, what crossed your mind was/were:

ways to discredit the statement(s) rather than ways in which the statement(s) is so, and/or
whether a statement is binarily applicable either in general or specifically,
whether the inapplicability of one statement -- broadly or specifically -- to you or the white people whom you know has something to do with whether White Privilege exists,
whether a single statement or the whole list sought to describe or label you specifically or white people in general rather than a body of cultural attitudes and experiences,
well, that's not white privilege, it's an outcome of White Privilege.  What that is at least one of thee things -- white guilt, denial or racial bias -- but not knowing you personally, I can't say which.  I suppose it could also be be incomprehension, but there's no "fancy" language there, so hopefully none of the literalists (or anyone else) here show us that they truly didn't get the substantive themes and contexts of the statements.

Lastly, to be clear, I didn't create the OP seeking to irk folks, truly.  I want folks -- black and white -- to recognize that on a daily basis, whites enjoy a set of advantages and immunities that are a direct result of the oppression of people of color.  I also want blacks to realize that often enough and unconsciously they feed the beast too and to that end, they aren't helping eradicate it.  That's how deeply ingrained White Privilege is in American culture.

Interestingly, I didn't actually come to understand White Privilege until I discovered my own angst and apprehension when I spent a year living and traveling in places where there were no white people, or if there were I never saw them.  And to be honest, it was some months later that I understood the emotions I'd felt .  It was years later before the term "White Privilege" made its way to me and I came to have a tidy little label for what I'd experienced and discovered.

How you perceive the notion of that even being possible and indeed happening?  Makes you squirm in your chair a bit and maybe feel a little uncomfortable, right?  But here’s the thing – I’m not "on about" White Privilege to make you feel comfortable, that’s not my aim. I've created this thread to ideally erase the invisibility of the privileges you have that continue to help maintain white supremacy, yet I realize that's probably far too optimistic an objective. I’m trying merely to offer a few palpable illustrations of what White Privilege is in the hope that maybe one day, not necessarily one day soon, when you see it manifest, you'll recognize it for what it is and maybe even know that it's not fair that we enjoy a privilege no other Americans do, and in recognition of that, do something about ending it.


Additional Reading:

THE ORIGINS OF “PRIVILEGE” -- An interview

WHITE PRIVILEGE AND MALE PRIVILEGE: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women's Studies

UNDERSTANDING WHITE PRIVILEGE

The Invisibility of White Privilege


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## Sunni Man (Aug 25, 2016)

......................................................


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## HereWeGoAgain (Aug 25, 2016)

What a load of horse shit....


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## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


And you wonder why white people don't vote Democrat.....


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


 YES! Please let the white guy tell us about it!


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

White Privilege is never being told to, “get over slavery”.
White Privilege is arrogantly believing that reverse racism actually exists and believing it is something other than racism.


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## SassyIrishLass (Aug 25, 2016)

Ah a really racist and stupid thread...that needs to go to the Rubber Room


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## SassyIrishLass (Aug 25, 2016)




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## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


I suggest you find the nearest "safe space" and shelter in place immediately.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.




Ooh look, a leftist who is a racist fuck - how unusual...

So racist fuck, if a white person moves in to a Compton neighborhood, they will be treated with respect? If they move into a Boyle Heights neighborhood all will be Bueno? 

What is that racist fuck? I missed your answer.



> White Privilege is being _able _to watch a movie, read a book and open the front page of a newspaper and assume that unless otherwise indicated, you and every white person whom you know or can imagine could well be the protagonist; you and your race is widely represented and spoken for.  It's also being about to encounter any narrative about non-whites and empathetically dissociate yourself from it.




Especially those "Spike Jones joints.."

You're brilliant, as racist fucks go...

What a moron you are - racist fuck.


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## Ozone (Aug 25, 2016)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> What a load of horse shit....


without load after load of horse shit, all these politics would be very boring.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


Your low self esteem is not my problem.

Signed,
White Guy


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## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

Ozone said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > What a load of horse shit....
> ...


This is much more than politics.

"White privilege" bullshit is very much institutionalized.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.


Be a white person and move into South Chicago, most of Detroit, Philly, or any other predominately black area of a major city, and let me know how pleasant and respectful your neighbors are to you.   .......


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)




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## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

Grampa Murked U said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> ...



TY for your input.


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## Mac1958 (Aug 25, 2016)

Rather than shaming whites (especially white kids) over the color of their skin, perhaps we could put more effort into challenging minorities to improve their own lives. 

This strategy of tearing one group down to make another rise by default, while much easier than actually doing some heavy lifting, is not in the best interest of either minorities or the country.

And no, my white half feels no guilt for saying that.
.


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

you can always tell when a thread is spot on, the usual I'm not a racist racists are attracted to it like flies to shit.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

Mac1958 said:


> Rather than shaming whites (especially white kids) over the color of their skin, perhaps we could put more effort into challenging minorities to improve their own lives.
> 
> This strategy of tearing one group down to make another rise by default, while much easier than actually doing some heavy lifting, is not in the best interest of either minorities or the country.
> .




That goes directly to my parting remarks in the OP.  There's no need to internalize the OP's statements.  It's not tearing anyone down to say "such and such" exists.  Did I blame someone for something in my OP?  No.  So who got "shamed" or "torn down" as you put it?  Nobody.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> you can always tell when a thread is spot on, the usual I'm not a racist racists are attracted to it like flies to shit.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


Seriously dude. People are peddling that crap to you not because it has any merit but because it MAKES THEM RICH.  More power to them for being smart enough to see the gullible are willing to pay to read that shit & make them continue feeling as if they are less than worthy human beings. Don't be so damn gullible.


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## Mac1958 (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > Rather than shaming whites (especially white kids) over the color of their skin, perhaps we could put more effort into challenging minorities to improve their own lives.
> ...


If you're actually curious about this, you may want to Google "white privilege".  You will find no lack of videos of both kids and adults being attacked and shamed for the very things you list in your OP.

If you're actually curious about this.
.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> you can always tell when a thread is spot on, the usual I'm not a racist racists are attracted to it like flies to shit.



Should there be a national punishment for being white? You know, like 10 years of forced labor anyone who has skin lighter than a threshold determined by the party?


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)




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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > you can always tell when a thread is spot on, the usual I'm not a racist racists are attracted to it like flies to shit.


half white (Irish) half cheetwood Cherokee.
racist? nope. you on the other hand...


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> ...




Scratching your head and thinking about what I wrote and what is in the linked documents -- docs I suspect nobody who has responded has read yet --  is among the more mature responses I've seen thus far.  Thinking about the OP and linked content what one is supposed to do.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> [
> That goes directly to my parting remarks in the OP.  There's no need to internalize the OP's statements.  It's not tearing anyone down to say "such and such" exists.  Did I blame someone for something in my OP?  No.  So who got "shamed" or "torn down" as you put it?  Nobody.



From your perspective as a racist fuck, should the whites whom you so adamantly hate, be locked into camps for the good of the party?


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)




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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > you can always tell when a thread is spot on, the usual I'm not a racist racists are attracted to it like flies to shit.
> ...


no, but here should be one for you just because you are you .


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## SassyIrishLass (Aug 25, 2016)

I'm thankful I was born white and not a dindu nuffin


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> 320 Years of History said:
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> 
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> ...


warning unhinged is now entering phase one of a false question loop..


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> ]half white (Irish) *half cheetwood Cherokee.*
> racist? nope. you on the other hand...



Liberalese for "I'm embarrassed that I'm white and really want to be something else."

I'm betting a DNA test would not support your claim, or anything close to it.


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

SassyIrishLass said:


> I'm thankful I was born white and not a dindu nuffin


color has nothing to do with dindu nuffins
your trailer park is crammed full of them.


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
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> 
> > I'm thankful I was born white and not a dindu nuffin
> ...


 Your worthless ass probably wishes you had a trailer


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2016)




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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > ]half white (Irish) *half cheetwood Cherokee.*
> ...


false I've all ready had the dna test done , not that it was necessary . there's my dad,  but you had to rant something.


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## Wyatt earp (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...




Seriously dude..


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

"white folks don't understand. so let a white guy explain it to you"


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> daws101 said:
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> > SassyIrishLass said:
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nope , but you can wish for indoor plumbing.


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## SassyIrishLass (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thankful I was born white and not a dindu nuffin
> ...



We live in a gated community. Very, very few dindu nuffins in our neighborhood..in fact there are none. But keep trying, troll....and yes you are a worthless troll. Now back to ignore for you


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

SassyIrishLass said:


> daws101 said:
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> > SassyIrishLass said:
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 most trailer parks are fenced in.


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> TNHarley said:
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> > daws101 said:
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 I have always dreamed of a toilet. But im white.. aren't I entitled to one?


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## Meathead (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


White privilege is black failure.


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2016)




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## BlindBoo (Aug 25, 2016)

I can never truly understand what it is like growing up black in America.  I only know how my black friends have described it over the years.  One of them did take me to an old bar on the other side of the tracks one night.  Long time ago.   Nary a white soul in sight.  All eye turned as we walked in and it got strangely quite for a second.  I turned to my friend and said, "That's what you mean huh"  as he grinned.  Me being a long hair type, there were some laughs and most went about their night.  A few were ass-holes but most were just there to have a good time like any bar, and we did.


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## paulitician (Aug 25, 2016)

Time to get past the Race-Baiting stuff. The War being fought now is a ' NWO Globalist Elite vs. The People' War. They don't care what color folks are. It's a war on em all.


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## Meathead (Aug 25, 2016)

BlindBoo said:


> I can never truly understand what it is like growing up black in America.  I only know how my black friends have described it over the years.  One of them did take me to an old bar on the other side of the tracks one night.  Long time ago.   Nary a white soul in sight.  All eye turned as we walked in and it got strangely quite for a second.  I turned to my friend and said, "That's what you mean huh"  as he grinned.  Me being a long hair type, there were some laughs and most went about their night.  A few were ass-holes but most were just there to have a good time like any bar, and we did.


Did you expect to be gangbanged or something?


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

rightwinger said:


>




Oh look, racist hate from a leftist troll - who would believe it?






The democrat dream for the "white" problem.


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## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


_Now, if as or after you read the list above, what crossed your mind was/were:_

_ways to discredit the statement(s) rather than ways in which the statement(s) is so, and/or_
_whether a statement is binarily applicable either in general or specifically,_
_whether the inapplicability of one statement -- broadly or specifically -- to you or the white people whom you know has something to do with whether White Privilege exists,_
_whether a single statement or the whole list sought to describe or label you specifically or white people in general rather than a body of cultural attitudes and experiences,_
Actually, I thought of copying a few to cross stitch on a pillow.  It's a pretty good list; thanks.


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> daws101 said:
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> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...


funny, just not in the way you meant it to be.


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## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> White Privilege is never being told to, “get over slavery”.
> White Privilege is arrogantly believing that reverse racism actually exists and believing it is something other than racism.


Those are TRUE, TN.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

BlindBoo said:


> I can never truly understand what it is like growing up black in America.  I only know how my black friends have described it over the years.  One of them did take me to an old bar on the other side of the tracks one night.  Long time ago.   Nary a white soul in sight.  All eye turned as we walked in and it got strangely quite for a second.  I turned to my friend and said, "That's what you mean huh"  as he grinned.  Me being a long hair type, there were some laughs and most went about their night.  A few were ass-holes but most were just there to have a good time like any bar, and we did.



You should cry, then beg forgiveness. Then give 90% of what you own to the NAACP.

White jes ain't right..

I do notice that the anti-white hatred of your leftist scum is off the scale today. Did the Soros hate sites declare this "hate whitey day?"


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

paulitician said:


> Time to get past the Race-Baiting stuff. The War being fought now is a ' NWO Globalist Elite vs. The People' War. They don't care what color folks are. It's a war on em all.


paulie the uninvited evangelical of conspiracy has arrived.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> Those are TRUE, TN.



Derp derp derpity derp.

Fucking racist piece of shit.


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > White Privilege is never being told to, “get over slavery”.
> ...


 oh bullshit


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> paulie the uninvited evangelical of conspiracy has arrived.



duhs, the uninvited evangelist of mental retardation remains....


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## SassyIrishLass (Aug 25, 2016)

"White guilt" was manufactured by the left loons as a means of dividing...anyone with an ounce of sense knows this


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## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

You know what I never understood about blacks? The government institutionalized racism, yet, they cling to big government like they don't have daddies.


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## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> rightwinger said:
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> >
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right on schedule unhinged pulls the *unnecessary* and racist children of the holocaust pic right out of his ass.


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## MikeK (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


As a White person I cannot empathize with the overall thrust of your commentary.  But while I do sincerely sympathize with the intelligent, decent, peaceful, hard-working and productive Black people I've known, I must say their perpetuated suffering is attributable not only to those Whites whose attitudes are governed by a racist orientation but to those Blacks who are deservedly regarded, by both Black and White people, as _n!ggers._


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## Sunni Man (Aug 25, 2016)

Nothing pisses me off more than hearing the BS called White Privilege.   ......    

I'm white male who grew up in an average lower middle class neighborhood. We weren't rich, only owned one car; but always had food on the table and clothes on our backs. Attended public school that had american Indians, blacks, mexicans.

Drafted for Vietnam; the same day as another kid who was a native american from my high school. He didn't come back and his name is on the "Wall".   (maybe it was because of white privilege that I  survived?) ....    

Long story short.......used the G.I Bill......like any vet could; black, white, brown. Earned a degree, landed a job, married, bought a house, and raised a family, had a long productive career.

But now I am informed that it was all because of "white privilege".

That I had two side jobs while attending college had zero to do with my success. Because everything was handed to me due to my white skin.   ........


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> []right on schedule unhinged pulls the *unnecessary* and racist children of the holocaust pic right out of his ass.



Come on duhs, you racist fucks have a plan for the "white problem."


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

So, at this point, which of the following lines have appeared in refutation of the OP?  I don't know, and I'm not going looking for them, but I'll rebut them here.

*Colorblind*
_“People are just people.”  “I don’t see color.”  “We’re all just human.”   “Character, not color, is what counts with me.”_

“Colorblindness” negates the cultural values, norms, expectations and life experiences of people of color. Even if an individual white person can ignore a person’s skin color, society does not.  Claiming to be “colorblind” can also be a defense when someone is afraid to discuss racism, especially if the assumption is that all conversation about race or color is racist.  Color consciousness does not equal racism.


*Reverse Racism*
_“Blacks cry ‘racism’ for everything, even though they are more or just as racist as white people.”_

Racism = racial prejudice + systemic institutional power to act on one's prejudices.  To say people of color can be racist, denies the power imbalance inherent in racism. Although some Black people dislike whites and act on that prejudice to insult or hurt them, that’s not the same as systematically oppressing them and negatively affecting every aspect of their lives.  People of color, as a social group, do not possess the societal, institutional power to oppress white people as a group. An individual Black person who is abusing a white person, while clearly wrong, is acting out a personal racial prejudice, not racism.


*Blame the Victim*
_“Blacks are not willing to work hard.”  “Blacks feel entitled and want everything handed to them.”  “Blacks hold themselves back, not racism.”   “We have advertised everywhere, there just aren’t any qualified blacks for this job.”_

When blame-the-victim tactics are used, it provides an escape from discussing the real problem: racism. Therefore, the agents of racism, white people and their institutions, can avoid acknowledging a system of oppression exists.  As long as the focus remains on black folks, white people can minimize or dismiss our experiences and never have to deal with their responsibility or collusion in racism and white privilege.


*Deny, Deny, Deny*
_“Blacks are unfairly favored, whites are not.”_

This form of denial is based on the false notion that the playing field is now level. When some white folks are expected to suddenly share their privilege, access and advantage, they often perceive it as discrimination. White people’s attacks on programs like affirmative action and black History Month are usually rooted in this false perception.


*Pull Yourself Up by Your Bootstraps*
_“America is the land of opportunity, built by rugged individuals, where anyone with grit can succeed if they just pull up hard enough on their bootstraps. So Blacks need to pull themselves up from the bottom like everyone else.”_

U.S. social propaganda has convinced many people that an individual’s hard work is the main determinant of success in the country. This ideology totally denies the impact of either oppression or privilege on any person’s chance for success, and pretends that every individual, regardless of color, gender, disability, etc.,  has the same access to the rights, benefits and responsibilities of society. It also implies that blacks have only their individual character flaws or cultural inadequacies to blame, and not racism.


*Racism Is Over*
_“Blacks live in the past. We dealt with racism in the 1960s with all the marches, sit-ins and speeches by Martin Luther King Jr.  Laws have been changed. Segregation and lynching have ended. We have some details to work out, but real racism is pretty much a thing of the past. They need to get over it and move on.”_

The absence of legalized, enforced segregation does not mean the end of racism. This denial of contemporary racism, based on an inaccurate assessment of both history and current society, romanticizes the past and diminishes today’s reality.

If there is no race problem, there would be no school-to-prison pipeline in Mississippi that leads to the arrest and sentencing of Black students for infractions as insignificant as wearing the wrong color socks. New York City’s Stop and Frisk policy that led to 400,000 police encounters with innocent Black and Latino New Yorkers, would not have happened.

If there is no race problem, a black person would not be 3.73 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than a white person, even though Blacks and whites use marijuana at similar rates.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

rightwinger said:


>


You can literally create a cartoon to illustrate any bullshit belief you want.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

Sunni Man said:


> I am informed that it was all because of "white privilege".



If that's what you think my OP said, you too didn't understand it.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> Billy_Kinetta said:
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> 
> > daws101 said:
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I am an American.  Nothing else matters.


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## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > Those are TRUE, TN.
> ...


Boy, you sure told me!


----------



## Meathead (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> So, at this point, which of the following lines have appeared in refutation of the OP?  I don't know, and I'm not going looking for them, but I'll rebut them here.
> 
> *Colorblind*
> _“People are just people.”  “I don’t see color.”  “We’re all just human.”   “Character, not color, is what counts with me.”_
> ...


If you're going to copy and paste nonsense at least provide a link even though it's from a ding bat site. You're going to rebut...my ass.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I am informed that it was all because of "white privilege".
> ...


You don't understand it.

Peggy McIntosh is just as batshit crazy as Jane Elliot or Robert Jensen, and both of them very much do say that(and more).

No one ever has the guts to debate anyone on the actual validity of "white privilege".


----------



## imawhosure (Aug 25, 2016)

Sunni Man said:


> Nothing pisses me off more than hearing the BS called White Privilege.   ......
> 
> I'm white male who grew up in an average lower middle class neighborhood. We weren't rich, only owned one car; but always had food on the table and clothes on our backs. Attended public school that had american Indians, blacks, mexicans.
> 
> ...





Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > []right on schedule unhinged pulls the *unnecessary* and racist children of the holocaust pic right out of his ass.
> ...





Billy_Kinetta said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > Billy_Kinetta said:
> ...



Cmon people, wake up!  The reason you are seeing threads like this on here and other political sites, is the same reason you just heard about the Hillary commercial trying to connect Trump with the KKK.  Polls show in Florida he is ahead by 4 points, with slightly over 20% African American vote for him.

They can't have their indentured servants escaping the liberal plantation, and if those numbers spread, Hillary will be DOA on election day, sooooooooo, here, there, and everywhere, you are going to see threads like this, to get "the hired help" thinking the correct way again!  Right astro-turfers-)


----------



## TNHarley (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> So, at this point, which of the following lines have appeared in refutation of the OP?  I don't know, and I'm not going looking for them, but I'll rebut them here.
> 
> *Colorblind*
> _“People are just people.”  “I don’t see color.”  “We’re all just human.”   “Character, not color, is what counts with me.”_
> ...


 "black people cant be racist" go fuck yourself white boy


----------



## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

imawhosure said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing pisses me off more than hearing the BS called White Privilege.   ......
> ...


320's a Democratic shill?  Don't think so, dude.


----------



## BlindBoo (Aug 25, 2016)

Meathead said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > I can never truly understand what it is like growing up black in America.  I only know how my black friends have described it over the years.  One of them did take me to an old bar on the other side of the tracks one night.  Long time ago.   Nary a white soul in sight.  All eye turned as we walked in and it got strangely quite for a second.  I turned to my friend and said, "That's what you mean huh"  as he grinned.  Me being a long hair type, there were some laughs and most went about their night.  A few were ass-holes but most were just there to have a good time like any bar, and we did.
> ...




No you sick fuck, he wanted to show me how it felt when he walked into an all white bar with me.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> If that's what you think my OP said, you too didn't understand it.



You're just spewing your racist hatred - probably on orders from one or more of the Soros hate sites.

Democrats: Hating people based on skin color for over 200 years; now available in "hating whites."


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Aug 25, 2016)

White Privilege...lol


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> [
> 
> 320's a Democratic shill?  Don't think so, dude.





You can't make this shit up.

Racist fuck = democrat - 100% of the time.


----------



## imawhosure (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> imawhosure said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...




Well OL, why don't you ask him/her why on this particular day he/she decided to start a thread like this!  I know, I know, coincidence; just like Bill Clinton meeting  Lynch on one day at an airport, then the next day, Obama FINALLY goes and campaigns for Hillary.

You may be a liberal, but that doesn't mean you can't think, does it!


----------



## Defiant1 (Aug 25, 2016)

Blacks who are treated badly in today's America are judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.


----------



## Meathead (Aug 25, 2016)

BlindBoo said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...





BlindBoo said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...


So you felt privileged you weren't gang banged or disappointed?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> Boy, you sure told me!



Look, racism is the heart of your filthy party. Hating people for the color of their skin is just what you do. No doubt you used to hate people for having black skin, now you hate people for having white skin.

The party tells you to hate, and hate you do....


----------



## BlindBoo (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > I can never truly understand what it is like growing up black in America.  I only know how my black friends have described it over the years.  One of them did take me to an old bar on the other side of the tracks one night.  Long time ago.   Nary a white soul in sight.  All eye turned as we walked in and it got strangely quite for a second.  I turned to my friend and said, "That's what you mean huh"  as he grinned.  Me being a long hair type, there were some laughs and most went about their night.  A few were ass-holes but most were just there to have a good time like any bar, and we did.
> ...



Nah, turns out, for the most part, we're all the same.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

BlindBoo said:


> [
> 
> Nah, turns out, for the most part, we're all the same.



All you white hating democrats?

I suppose, you all have IQ's in low double digits....


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


Thinking white people cannot vote Democrat anymore.


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## BlindBoo (Aug 25, 2016)

Meathead said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...




We had a good time drinking and listening to some live blues that night.


----------



## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

imawhosure said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > imawhosure said:
> ...


I, too, asked myself why 320 would wade into such stinking waters, but mostly because he has never struck me as someone who gives two shits about race, based on some earlier threads.   Threads like this are extremely distasteful to me and I'm not staying, but I will say this:
Nothing in the OP article or the one that followed talked about people's political party--conservative, Republican, liberal or Democrat.  Those of you who flocked here to insult and show great umbrage to 320 for his views are pointing your fingers at yourselves, doofies.  "How dare you call me racist?"  Well, no one did.  You identified yourselves.
If anyone has anything sensible to say to refute the OP, go for it.


----------



## BlindBoo (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



No Zippy, the Human Race.


----------



## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > Boy, you sure told me!
> ...


It's not my party!  I have objected to bigotry since the first time I grabbed the bully on the bus by the hair of the head, slammed him against a wall and screamed him a piece of my mind.  I've never hated anyone for their skin color.  I do hate stupid bigots, though, who presume to know everything about someone else based on the fact that they would like to live in a more fair world.


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## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

BlindBoo said:


> No Zippy, the Human Race.



So a Mongolian tribesman drinking Yak milk is identical to a New York metrosexual?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> It's not my party!  I have objected to bigotry since the first time I grabbed the bully on the bus by the hair of the head, slammed him against a wall and screamed him a piece of my mind.  I've never hated anyone for their skin color.  I do hate stupid bigots, though, who presume to know everything about someone else based on the fact that they would like to live in a more fair world.



This is a typical democrat hate whitey thread, and you jumped in head first.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> imawhosure said:
> 
> 
> > OldLady said:
> ...


I have refuted the OP numerous times.

"White privilege" is almost as much of an impossibility as a flat earth at this point in history.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Went right over your head didn't it?


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

BlindBoo said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...


I love when Democrats pretend to be cultured.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You need to adjust your hood, the eye holes are crooked...


----------



## BlindBoo (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > No Zippy, the Human Race.
> ...



You're hearing those voices again aren't you?  

When I said "for the most part' you heard 'identical' did ya?


----------



## BlindBoo (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...



That bar was just a few blocks from an old Negro League baseball field where Satchel Paige pitched a few games.


----------



## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > It's not my party!  I have objected to bigotry since the first time I grabbed the bully on the bus by the hair of the head, slammed him against a wall and screamed him a piece of my mind.  I've never hated anyone for their skin color.  I do hate stupid bigots, though, who presume to know everything about someone else based on the fact that they would like to live in a more fair world.
> ...


So did you!!!!!


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


My post definitely went over your head.

I could easily make a devastatingly accurate cartoon about the "prejudice + power" fallacy depicting a black person or a Muslim Arab gunning down white pedestrians while they are proclaiming they can't be racist because they "don't have power", but that too would be little more than the propaganda you buy in to.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2016)




----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

rightwinger said:


>


Why don't you do a cartoon about white settlers killing natives with smallpox laced blankets?

That is just as accurate of a depiction of modern day society as the crap you are posting.


----------



## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > imawhosure said:
> ...


Some of us can see it; some of us can't.  I suppose it doesn't automatically make anyone a racist, a real black-hater, if they don't agree whites have a better chance of success in this country.  Whites do, actually, and I've seen plenty of folks on threads like this eventually reveal the hatred and resentment they really feel for black people.  I'm not saying you're one of them.  I don't know if you are or not.  But although the writer quoted in the OP might have waxed a bit emotional, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.   You may have had plenty of challenges in life, maybe you still do.   You can rest assured that if you had been born African American, you would have had an additional challenge to overcome.  It is still real.  Ask any African American.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > OldLady said:
> ...


There is nothing to see that actually backs up McIntosh's claims. America today is closer to black supremacist South Africa than it is to the Jim Crow south.

For every tiny, insignificant little backwater that still clings to the "good ole days" there are huge cities that are openly hostile to white people, and nobody gives a shit about the latter.


----------



## imawhosure (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > OldLady said:
> ...




Thought you were leaving this thread OL!

Lets get down to it then---------------> the only reason WP (white Priv) is a factor, is because while it is inclusive to everyone, others want it to be different.  It is NOT WP, it is called capitalism.

EXAMPLE---------->  YOU, yes I mean YOU, OL...........eat everyday and get sick.  What is it you eat?  Pork, but you never cook it.  I come along and tell you the reason you are getting sick is because you have to cook it.  So I cook you up a nice pork dinner, you eat it, and you don't get sick.

Now the logical person would start cooking their pork, but you claim that the only reason I am not getting sick is because I am white.  Whitey sucks, so you continue to eat your pork raw and get sick.  Why?  Because your liberal friends tell you I am trying to screw you over, and give you one lousy pork chop a month as long as you vote for NON COOKED PORK!

So while you are puking your guts out everyday, somehow I get the blame for suggesting you cook your pork.  Your benefactors?  Why they are great people, because they give you one lousy pork chop a month, and if they want you to eat it uncooked, why they helped you............NOW DIDN'T THEY!!!!!!!


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> Some of us can see it; some of us can't.  I suppose it doesn't automatically make anyone a racist, a real black-hater, if they don't agree whites have a better chance of success in this country.  Whites do, actually, and I've seen plenty of folks on threads like this eventually reveal the hatred and resentment they really feel for black people.  I'm not saying you're one of them.  I don't know if you are or not.  But although the writer quoted in the OP might have waxed a bit emotional, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.   You may have had plenty of challenges in life, maybe you still do.   You can rest assured that if you had been born African American, you would have had an additional challenge to overcome.  It is still real.  Ask any African American.



Yep, you're full of shit.

And a racist.


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > []right on schedule unhinged pulls the *unnecessary* and racist children of the holocaust pic right out of his ass.
> ...


 You can dream. 
It must suck being you.


----------



## OldLady (Aug 25, 2016)

imawhosure said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...


You've totally lost me.  And I am leaving. It's just so hard for me to let some gorilla have the last word.  Gotta go.  Use plain English next time you want to make a point with me, okay?


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2016)




----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > Billy_Kinetta said:
> ...


Bullshit. I'd love to be there when a family member of yours starts dating someone of a different race or someone of the same gender.


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > No Zippy, the Human Race.
> ...


Having never met either one you have no basis of comparison aND as usual talking out your delusional ass.


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...


bitch please the only culture you know is yogurt .


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> You can dream.
> It must suck being you.



Ergo sober?

Nah, it's pretty cool, you should try it once...


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > You can dream.
> ...


Don't know where you got the idea that being delusional is anything close to sobriety, must have been the same mental illness  that compels you to falsely proclaim I'm a drunk. 
You couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> [
> Don't know where you got the idea that being delusional is anything close to sobriety, must have been the same mental illness  that compels you to falsely proclaim I'm a drunk.
> You couldn't be more wrong.



Well duhs, anyone who posts the idiocy you do and is not falling down drunk, is royally fucked....

You honestly don't appear to have more than 2 or 3 functioning brain cells.


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


Jealous rears it's mishapen head!


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

Admitting that white privilege helps you is really just congratulating yourself


----------



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You have the audacity to say that nobody "has the guts to debate anyone on the actual validity of "white privilege," yet look at the unsubstantiated claims you've up to this point in the thread.  This is your fourth post and neither in it nor in the preceding three have you presented anything resembling content worthy of calling it a a debate.

Where's your opening assertion that's stated in positive form and completely neutral terms?
Where are your arguments that are not only devoid of informal and formal fallacies and that are supported by credible data and research findings that in addition to having fully disclosed methodologies, are also referenced for all to review?
Where is is your equally well developed counter-argument?
Where is your cogent rebuttal to the counter-argument?
Where is your conclusion that "brings it all home" by synthesizing the argument, counter-argument and rebuttal?
The answer to every one of those questions is the same:  nowhere!

So if you want to debate, post your dialectic argument.  Provided you actually produce a dialectic argument, I'll respond in kind why my own dialectic argument that refutes yours.  You and I each have three days to compose our argument.  You and I each get one post to present our argument; neither of us sees the other's argument in advance.  Deadline for posting is 8:30 pm on 28-August-2016.

Choose one of the assertions below; the one you choose will be the one we debate.:

White Privilege exists.
Negative:  You
Affirmative:  I

White people vote for anyone but Democrats because the concept of White Privilege prevents them from voting for Democrats.
Negative:  You
Affirmative:  I

In the U.S., structural privileges exist that allow whites to legally maintain an edge over minorities.
Negative: You
Affirmative:  I

Just so you know that I am quite willing to engage in a dialectic argument, I have already posted one on USMB, although the topic was not this one.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


White privilege is not just an American assertion or concept; it is, at the very least, a western encompassing one that is lodged at any white person McIntosh's fanatics think they can get away with labeling.

If I pick the 1st or 3rd choice we would have to debate the subject from a western standpoint(Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc on top of the US), not just an American one.

I am actually having a hard time choosing because I want to do all 3.


----------



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...



Red:
Well, then the choice is clear:  #2 it is.


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


 if it's a "western "concept  no choice is necessary as it  functions the same way any where their is a white majority.
is there a major difference in countries that are more homogenous like china ?
the disparity there is just as obvious as here.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


You are already failing to properly debate because:
1. your 1st choice can easily fit my criteria.

2. Your 3rd choice is redundant when accounting for the 1st choice and merely exists as a way to pigeonhole me into a debate on white privilege in the US without proper global context, which white privilege is actually based upon.


I have chosen #1 btw.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...


Except "white privilege" is literally just a white thing. 

The Chinese can have all the majority privilege they want and Tim Wise and his sycophants will leave them alone to overtly oppress minorities of every stripe at levels unheard of in the west.


----------



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...



Okay, #1 it is.


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


  privilege is not exclusive to whites , what makes white privilege different?


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...


The name?

It is kind of obvious to even small children.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


BTW, if I post my argument at the last minute on Sunday, does that mean I automatically win because you can't post your refutation in time?


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...


 The name is meaningless 
It could just as well be  (place any controlling group here)


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

daws101 said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...


Thanks for proving my argument before the debate even begins.


----------



## daws101 (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...


as I thought, your argument is/ was going to be based on the one race theory.


----------



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...



Red:
No.  That you even asked that question is disconcerting on multiple levels, the first of which being that I'm not sure you actually understand what a dialectic argument is.

Organization of a Dialogic/Dialectic Paper

*Unique Title 
Intro Paragraphs:*
Identify what assertion you will argue 
Identify the 3-4 strongest opposing arguments,
Identify the argumentative structure you'll use, who precisely your intended audience is, and provide whatever other introductory details you feel readers in your target audience must have.​
*Body*
Body Section 1: 
An argument and supporting details​Body Section 2:  
Its opposing argument and supporting details​Body Section 3:
Rebuttal of the counter-argument and supporting details​*Conclusion:*
1 - Summarize the key points in the body
2 - Where logically valid to do so, extrapolate to something beyond the literal findings/assertions presented in the body (optional)​
*Bibliography*
[FWIW, I don't care if you use MLA, APA, or hyperlinking]​ 


We are both delivering dialectic arguments not later than 8:30 this coming Sunday.  I don't need to see yours in advance any more than you need to see mine because the "counter-argument" section of the overall argument must robustly and objectively present the opposing side's argument so that it can be rebutted in the "rebuttal" section.  That is the reason for choosing the dialectic structure:  it requires one to identify the strongest of the opposition's potential arguments and present them, well, as rigorously as one would present one's own position.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


You stated that you would formulate your argument as a direct counter to mine, not in the context of a dialectic argument.


----------



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...



Okay...I understand why you said what you did.  I will still deliver my argument by 8:30 p.m. on Sunday.  

I don't need to see your argument before presenting my own.  There are only so many thematically/substantively different arguments against the existence of white privilege.  The strengths and weaknesses of each of them don't change simply because you or another author presents them; what changes by author is the qualitative nature of the presentation.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


That makes no sense whatsoever in the context of this debate or any debate really.

Debates are supposed to be about the direct exchange of conflicting ideas and beliefs, not guessing or even strawmaning your opponent's arguments without any input from them.


----------



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> [white privilege] is, at the very least, a western encompassing one that is lodged at any white person



Why do you conclude that one's assertion that white privilege exists and then describing the ways in which it is manifest is necessarily an attack?  Consider for instance comparable assertions:

In Israel, Jewish privilege exists.
In Saudi Arabia, Muslim privilege exists.
In China, Han privilege exists.
If one were to say that to the natives of those places, almost without exception, one would get as a reply something akin to, "Yes, it does."  Indeed, I had precisely that conversation with eight of my Chinese colleagues in 2009.  All but two, Uyghurs, who where present are Han.  None of them denied the existence of Han privilege in China.  No Hans felt threatened or "lodged upon."  They just know it's something that does exist and they happen to be the beneficiaries of it.


----------



## ptbw forever (Aug 25, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > [white privilege] is, at the very least, a western encompassing one that is lodged at any white person
> ...


Now you are just being disingenuous.

Peggy doesn't believe in Han privilege in the same way she believes in white privilege, and white privilege is not even close to being as influential to American or Western European power structures as the Han are to China's.


----------



## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...



Really, I don't care that much about the rest of what I wrote.  If can't see the similitude between white privilege and Han privilege, fine. I really just wanted a direct answer to the question at the start of the post.

Why do you conclude that one's assertion that white privilege exists and then describing the ways in which it is manifest is necessarily an attack on white people, you, some subset of white people?​Truly, as goes my curiosity, it doesn't even matter whether white privilege exists or doesn't.  I just want to know why you construe someone mentioning that it does exist constitutes "lodging" an assault of some sort.  It doesn't even matter, as goes my question, what be the nature and extent of the assault.   The heart of the question, at least as I'm asking it of you, is what makes you perceive such a statement as an attack that was lodged.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 25, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...



Blue:
I'm interested in engaging you via the dialectic, thus I entreated for dialectical arguments.  You can call that a debate if you want, and in some sense it is, but strictly speaking it is not.

*Dialectic Vs Debate*
The dialectical method is a method of obtaining truth. If history is written by the winners then it contains no truth as Alex Haley proves, in a society that has advanced in dialectical truth it would not matter who the winners are, history would be the same. The truth is not something to believe in as with the corruption of truth in religions, it is something that is. Pythagoras Theorem is a2 + b2 = c2. This example of truth was that way in the beginning of time and will still be that way at the end of time, it is not a belief, it is truth. The utilization of the movement of truth in religion is a magian attack on the movement where subjectives are perfected for innocent minds. Truth is new, priest based societies pre-date truth.

*The dialectical method is *dialogue between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject, who wish to establish the truth of the matter by dialogue, with reasoned arguments.* Dialectics is different from debate, *wherein the debaters are committed to their points of view, and mean to win the debate, either by persuading the opponent, proving their argument correct, or proving the opponent's argument incorrect — thus, either a judge or a jury must decide who wins the debate.* Dialectics is also different from rhetoric, *wherein the speaker uses logos, pathos, or ethos to persuade listeners to take their side of the argument.

Socrates favoured truth as the highest value, proposing that it could be discovered through reason and logic in discussion: ergo, dialectic. Socrates valued rationality (appealing to logic, not emotion) as the proper means for persuasion, the discovery of truth, and the determinant for one's actions. To Socrates, truth, not arête, was the greater good, and each person should, above all else, seek truth to guide one's life. Therefore, Socrates opposed the Sophists and their teaching of rhetoric as art and as emotional oratory requiring neither logic nor proof.

*The purpose of the dialectic method of reasoning is resolution of disagreement through rational discussion, and, ultimately, the search for truth.* One way to proceed — the Socratic method — is to show that a given hypothesis (with other admissions) leads to a contradiction; thus, forcing the withdrawal of the hypothesis as a candidate for truth (see reductio ad absurdum). Another dialectical resolution of disagreement is by denying a presupposition of the contending thesis and antithesis; thereby, proceeding to sublation (transcendance) to synthesis, a third thesis.

Dialectics (also called logic) was one of the three liberal arts taught in medieval universities as part of the trivium. The trivium also included rhetoric and grammar. Based mainly on Aristotle, the first medieval philosopher to work on dialectics was Boethius. After him, many scholastic philosophers also made use of dialectics in their works, such as Abelard, William of Sherwood, Garlandus Compotista, Walter Burley, Roger Swyneshed and William of Ockham.​You chose topic #1:  White privilege exists.  That statement must either be true or false.   I proposed dialectic arguments because I care to discuss whether the assertion is true or not true.  I don't care whether either of us can win a debate about whether it exists or doesn't.  Why don't I care about winning a debate?

Because if I win the debate and in truth it doesn't exist, what of any real value is gained by my winning?
Because if you win the debate and in truth it does exist, what of any real value is gained?
Winning a debate is nice for the winner, but does nothing to advance the state of being of the parties to the discussion and it aids no observers in determining what is the truth, in this case, the greater or lesser likelihood that white privilege exists or does not exist.  I have no interest in structuring a discussion so that winners and losers result.  My aim in entreating you to a dialectic discussion is to create only winners:  dialectic discourse allows everyone to come one step closer, maybe more steps closer, to knowing whether white privilege exists or does not exist.  Nobody loses when that is the case.


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## The Great Goose (Aug 25, 2016)




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## Meathead (Aug 26, 2016)

daws101 said:


> Bullshit. I'd love to be there when a family member of yours starts dating someone of a different race or someone of the same gender.


Look, because you're white trash, or black; regardless, doesn't mean everyone is.


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## Mudda (Aug 26, 2016)

Just to look at the first example "White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect." So maybe if black people didn't fuck up most neighborhoods that they're in they'd get the same respect. Respect is earned.


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## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Just to look at the first example "White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect." So maybe if black people didn't fuck up most neighborhoods that they're in they'd get the same respect. Respect is earned.



Sure it is

‘This neighborhood does not need any blacks in it’: Racist letter shocks Kansas family


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## Mudda (Aug 26, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Just to look at the first example "White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect." So maybe if black people didn't fuck up most neighborhoods that they're in they'd get the same respect. Respect is earned.
> ...


Because like I said, blacks fuck up most neighborhoods with their social bullshit. Maybe they should act more civilized first. Then respect will come.


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## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2016)

Mudda said:


> rightwinger said:
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Actually, it is racists who fuck up most neighborhoods


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## Dogmaphobe (Aug 26, 2016)

U


320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


I ask myself on a daily basis "why is 320 pages of tedium such an insufferable blowhard?"

 ....and to think that all you proved by your word vomit here is that reverse racism isn't just true, but true beyond any shadow of a doubt.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
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I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Debates are the sole reason why we even have new, strong arguments to use in dialectic papers/arguments. Dialectic arguments are about assessing an individual's ability to research a topic and ultimately educate the individual doing the research on well established reality, it is not a tool to find new facts to establish more truth in any substantial way.

In a real debate(not the usual character execution ceremonies that are called "debates" these days), 2 individuals honestly looking for the truth bring their best and most well researched arguments ready and willing to withstand harsh criticism and iron out their philosophies to as close to perfection as they can get them(so honest debaters on both sides always win in a real sense by obtaining more knowledge). The very idea that people enter a debate in a honest fashion to "win" is a dangerous one to those truly seeking the truth, and I would certainly make the claim that anyone who can't be convinced by facts doesn't actually want to debate anyone or anything in the first place.

I guess where I am going with all of this is really that I just don't see how dual dialectic papers advances some new elements of truth, especially on a fairly obscure, low traffic political forum like this one; but I am hoping you can prove me wrong on that though.


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## blastoff (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


Dang, you almost made it to 20.


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## ClosedCaption (Aug 26, 2016)

LOL...All the responses are just white people going "What bullshit" and then leaving with their privilege


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## guno (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


And it's all coming to an end


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > [white privilege] is, at the very least, a western encompassing one that is lodged at any white person
> ...


I and many others view it as an attack because it further discourages group activity in communities that are already hyper-individualized to the point that group needs are neglected, or even harshly discouraged or prohibited. "White privilege" is also seen as an attack because of the fact there is no equivalent term in the modern lexicon for the privilege of other ethnic, religious or racial groups.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Aug 26, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> Mudda said:
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Well, that explains my peacefully diverse neighborhood.  There are no Democrats in sight.


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## OldLady (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
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_I and many others view it as an attack because it further discourages group activity in communities that are already hyper-individualized to the point that group needs are neglected, or even harshly discouraged or prohibited._
Can you give some examples of what you mean?  I'm honestly curious why so many posters here accuse me of being "racist" because I recognize racism when I see it.  
Confuses me.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
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Red:
There is in "the modern lexicon" a comparable term for the privilege of at least one other ethnic/racial group.  I told you want it is in simple English, but if you prefer, here's the literal and original term:   大汉族主义 or in pinyin, _dà Hànzú zhǔyia.  _Chairman Mao coined the term in the 1950s.

On Uighurs, Han, and general racial attitudes in China

Weekend Xinjiang / Uighur / 愤青 update, #2

Singapore isn’t the global city of the future after all

Chinese Privilege, Gender and Intersectionality in Singapore: A Conversation between Adeline Koh and Sangeetha Thanapal | boundary 2

Could Han Chauvinism Turn the 'Chinese Dream' into a 'Chinese Nightmare'?
The bias of the Han is not limited to how Uyghurs are viewed and treated in Chinese society; however, there's no reason for the more "in your face" signs of Chinese chauvinism to make it onto American television. 

​
Sure as that ad exists, and Chinese folks see it a "humorously cute," the black folks on my projects in China report that actual bias isn't something they've felt or encountered.  Rather, they note that in their experience, Chinese people are quite welcoming of them.  (Yes, in case you're wondering, the blacks on my project teams in China read and write Mandarin.  I'm the one who can't read and write Mandarin/Simplified Chinese.)

As I told you there is Jewish Privilege in Israel.  There is even white Jewish Privilege there.

Jews and Racial Privilege 

http://forward.com/opinion/337152/h...lege-when-most-citizens-believe-they-deserve/

Using My Jewish Privilege To Make a Difference for Palestinians in Hebron

Lawsuit challenges Israel’s discriminatory citizenship definition
That you may not be aware of the term "_dà Hànzú zhǔyia_" is indicative of nothing having to do with the phenomenon of d_à Hànzú zhǔyia_.  Believe it or not, there is more that goes on in the world than what falls right in front of you, but if you go looking for them, you'll find them.  (See my signature line.)


I told you before that there is and you unilaterally declared that I was being disingenuous.  You cited two reasons why you think that:

because, in your opinion, Peggy McIntosh doesn't believe in it --> What Peggy believes in or doesn't believe in has nothing to do with what exists or does not exist.  Peggy can believe in the Tooth Fairy, but that won't make the Tooth Fairy exist.  Peggy can disbelieve in bananas, but bananas will still exist.
because "white privilege is not even close to being as influential to American or Western European power structures as the Han are to China's." -->  How influential the phenomenon is and what its effects are have nothing to do with whether it exists or not.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

ClosedCaption said:


> LOL...All the responses are just white people going "What bullshit" and then leaving with their privilege


Mine are much much more substantive than that.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

OldLady said:


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I mean that you literally can't make a group that pertains to all or mostly white people without a lawsuit being filed that is sanctioned by all levels of the government and the media. The outrageous portrayal of the Tea Party as some sort of offshoot of the KKK just because it was something like almost 90% white shows this quite clearly.

The belief that the contemporary left and Democrats have that any large gathering of white people can turn into a klan rally is not just a wrong and paranoid one, it is quite a bigoted and racist one that goes to the very core of post WW2 western society. White people are basically guilty until proven innocent in any situation that currently pertains to race.

I think the problem you have is that you refuse to see the racism against white people coming from your own peers and political party.


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## OldLady (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> OldLady said:
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Thanks for trying, but all I'm hearing is defensiveness about ... Klan rallies?   Sounds like a really, really deep dive for a reason to call Dems racists (although I would like to point out, I am not a Dem).


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
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Once again you are being disingenuous, this time by comparing the reactions of the Chinese to a comparitively microscopic minority in China(black people) to the reactions of westerners to minorities who are literally becoming the majority at an ever quickening pace.

BTW, is there non-Italian/non-white/black privilege in Italy because of this commercial(the original to the one you posted btw)?:


Commercials like this actually illustrate the need for a debate on the existence of white privilege, because this commercial clearly suggests otherwise in a country that is much whiter than the US. 

Even if one were to concede that white privilege existed in the past, the world is vastly different now and clearly the old arguments presented by Peggy and Jane are largely irrelevant or reversed now.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

OldLady said:


> ptbw forever said:
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You clearly hear what you want to hear and don't have the foggiest clue what racism is.


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## OldLady (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> OldLady said:
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If you feel as if the world is picking on you, maybe it's because you're a white supremacist.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

OldLady said:


> ptbw forever said:
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Of course that's all you heard.  How could you not?  The entire reply depended on who makes what points, not on the cogency of the points that anyone made.  Abstract analysis did not rear its head in the development of the resonse you received.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> Commercials like this actually illustrate the need for a debate on the existence of white privilege, because this commercial clearly suggests otherwise in a country that is much whiter than the US.
> 
> Even if one were to concede that white privilege existed in the past, the world is vastly different now and clearly the old arguments presented by Peggy and Jane are largely irrelevant or reversed now.



What a fabulous commercial.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

OldLady said:


> ptbw forever said:
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Or maybe the world is racist against white people and they can get away with it due to white people being a tiny minority.

I know that is above and beyond your level of comprehension, but you could at least try to educate yourself about the world.


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## Yarddog (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...




You assume an awful lot about white people, assuming that all white people were the same,  maybe your just talking about europeans?  and even then there are differences.   I take it you must not be white to assume so much. 
You must be one of the most judgemental people on earth, you can even pre- emptively judge peoples thoughts before they have even read this.

somehow you know what other people acknowledge? , or were taught about other peoples beauty or worth? or you know how arrogant they were brought up to be?  its just amazing how youve figured out how all white people think. just amazing. by the way, I am white, and my family name was changed into an easier to say Anglo name,  people think im british when I am not,  but so fucking what?   

You cant see the forrest cause your looking at too many trees


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
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Blue:
Where exactly is the insincerity or lack of candor in my post?  You won't find that in my posts.

I now realize you don't know what disingenuousness is for what you've described as being indicative of it simply isn't it.  This is the second time you've levied the charge of my having been disingenuous and not presented a coherent case to support that claim.  Having now confirmed that you don't know what the word means, I understand why that is.

Red:
Oh, my, well, you are at least in good company, for you aren't the only person around here who willfully and unarmed enters a battle of wits....I don't think you read the whole post; I think you just watched the video...Or if you did, you failed to consider it in toto or deliberately did not, which if you willfully didn't, your reply to my post it is an illustration of disingenuousness..

The similitude I drew between Han chauvinism and white privilege was illustrated by the interactions of Han with Uyghur, not blacks.  Did you miss this statement:  "The bias of the Han is not limited to how Uyghurs are viewed and treated in Chinese society."?  



320 Years of History said:


> On Uighurs, Han, and general racial attitudes in China
> 
> Weekend Xinjiang / Uighur / 愤青 update, #2
> 
> ...


The commercial I shared merely illustrates the "not limited to" aspect of the statement.  The content of the post that discusses the preponderance of Han privilege/chauvinism is found in the linked content.
You will recall that this line of discussion ensued because you made the claim that "there is no equivalent term in the modern lexicon for the privilege of other ethnic, religious or racial groups."  I told you there is and I provided multiple linked illustrations that there is (you can still click on the links and read the material there).  Yet here you are (1) having still not acknowledged that you were wrong (not owning  your sh*t), and (2) shifting focus away from the fact you just didn't know what you were talking about when you wrote that "ig-nernt" remark.  And for what?  Nothing other than simple intransigence in response to the following post that I made.



320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > [white privilege] is, at the very least, a western encompassing one that is lodged at any white person
> ...


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
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BTW, if you'd instead prefer to offer a deductive rather than inductive argument, there's, obviously, no need to use a dialectical approach.  However, if you elect to go the formal argument route, you'll also need to craft the argument so that it suffers from no formal fallacies and is both valid and sound.

Effective Argumentation: Premises and Conclusions

Arguments, premise, conclusion, inference indicators, simple/complex

Argument Structure
The Validity and Soundness of Deductive Arguments


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

Yarddog said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> ...



Red:
I guess you missed this phrase, "whether a statement is binarily applicable either in general or specifically."


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


If you want to talk about "formal fallacies", this is a big one.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> ...



I don't want to talk about "formal fallacies" or formal fallacies, for that matter.  The OP isn't a formal argument.  It's not even an argument of any sort, it's an articulation of inferences derived from the arguments found in the linked content.  The linked content is where one'll find arguments.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
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You gave no reason why someone should believe you about any of this other than the "angst" you felt when you were the only white person in an area.

I spent literally the better part of my day surrounded by black people in the inner city and I felt no apprehension at all(likewise when my only "friend" in college was my black roommate with his all black group of friends)
I guess I am just morally superior to you because I am a millennial who's entire life has been shaped by so called "minorities".


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
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The linked content is every bit as terrible and dogmatic as the crap you posted from Peggy, and if you had half the wit I do you would at least be able to make that comparison.

I am sorry to tell you this, but if any of that were to be exposed in a proper debate the very existence of "white privilege" as a viable concept would be over the very next day.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
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You have literally no authority to lecture anyone on making arguments after the crap you linked to on the first page of this thread.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
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Blue:
The reason, the arguments, for why my assertions/inferences should be believed are found in the linked content.

Green:
What I didn't do is rely upon my own anecdotal experience as the determinant of the sufficiency of the arguments and observations of experts who've researched the matter of white privilege.  (When appeals to authority are not fallacious and when they are)


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
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What "research" did any of these people do?

Your "linked content" is every bit as fallacious and dogmatic as the content you had the guts to post and directly quote.

Peggy McIntosh is the godmother of "white privilege", if she is wrong they are all wrong.


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## PoliticalChic (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> ...





Anytime some dunce whines about 'white privilege,' I ask how is it, then, that the group with the highest income, highest educational attainment, and lowest crime rates is not white.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


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Red:
Peggy McIntosh, Ph.D.

Let me google that for you


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## Sgt. Striker (Aug 26, 2016)

My dad is hard at work at a college doing grounds crew duties like landscaping and trash removal.  While he has black co-workers who don't put forth as much effort, what is he supposed to do?  Can't complain because it's pointless.  There is no white privilege there because the college has to meet the quota.  When he was a housekeeper there, they wanted to replace him with an unskilled black woman to meet the quota.  He fought for his job that he earned.  He won.  That's not "white privilege," it's called fighting for the right to survive in a world that is unfair.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
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Anyone can get a Ph.D and spew dogmatic bullshit unchallenged, that is not research.

Let me google the word "research" for you:

Definition of RESEARCH


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 26, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
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Boy...you really don't know much about much....You clearly do not have a Ph.D and I doubt you have a masters degree.    Are you aware of one of the things one must do to get a Ph.D?  Are you aware of the purpose of getting a Ph.D.?

Seriously, keep responding to me with  sophomoric BS as you have been, and you'll land on my ignore list because I don't need to keep seeing this puerile quibbling from you from how 'til Sunday to find whatever you post as your argument (dialectic or deductive) for the non-existence of white privilege.  You have shown yourself to be among the segment of the population that cannot tell when what crosses your mind is best kept to yourself.


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## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
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Ceeptin'!! The Pretentiousness Containment Unit is overloaded! She kinnau teek an'more bullshit! You've gout ta shut 'er dauwn sir!!!


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## squeeze berry (Aug 26, 2016)

white privilege = white superiority


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## ptbw forever (Aug 26, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


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She has a "Ph.D." in women's studies, she is an idiot who isn't even  qualified to speak about the concepts she herself created.



.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

squeeze berry said:


> white privilege = white superiority



Logical equivalence is a much harder case to make, for these two qualitative natures of being, than is logical correlation or logical causation.

Let white privilege = WP
Let white superiority = WS​
Mere existence of WP can be shown observationally.
Mere existence of WS can be shown via the combination of observation and valid statistical extrapolation.
It's not hard to make the case that systemic superiority preponderantly leads to systemic privilege for those who enjoy superior status. (_WS_ →WP ⊨ ¬_WP_ → ¬_WS)_
It's not hard to make the case that privilege preponderantly is _*a *_consequence (albeit not the only consequence) of having superiority.  (_WP_ →WS ⊨ ¬_WS_ → ¬_WP)_
That the two are one in the same (equivalence/identity) is not at all an easy case to make.  In fact, I think it a case that cannot be validly and soundly made.  Why?  Consider the following:

For WP*:<=>*WS to be true, one would have to be able to logically show a relationship between WP and WS such that it conforms, albeit in words not numbers, to the following logical model -- _x_ = 2 ⇒ _x^_2 = 4 -- which is clearly true, but the proof must also not suffer from the following logical failing -- _x^_2= 4  ⇒ _x_ = 2 -- which is in general false (since _x_ could be −2).​


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## Mudda (Aug 27, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> Mudda said:
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Like Harlem?


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## JoeMoma (Aug 27, 2016)

OldLady said:


> ptbw forever said:
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Racial profile much.  
Some white people have a better chance at success than some black people.

But, some black people have a better chance at success than some white people.    (The president's daughters for example have near 100% probability of success).

In America, most people have an excellent opportunity of being successful if they get off their butts,  get educated, learn a skill, and get to work.  And don't give up because there is a setback or perceived unfairness.  The world will never be complete "fair".   Almost everyone can point a finger at someone who was luckier at the birth lottery.  Those that persevere can insure that their children are more privileged than themselves.


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## MarathonMike (Aug 27, 2016)

320: Have you considered the concept of "Black Privilege" in America?  For example scholarships and employment directives favoring the Black applicant over equal or in some cases higher qualified White applicants?


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## ptbw forever (Aug 27, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> 320: Have you considered the concept of "Black Privilege" in America?  For example scholarships and employment directives favoring the Black applicant over equal or in some cases higher qualified White applicants?


He hasn't even considered that black advantages in many cases override the original white advantages thought up by Peggy and turn the original argument on its head.


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## squeeze berry (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > white privilege = white superiority
> ...



Dear 320 years of inferiority

perhaps you can refute this


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

squeeze berry said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > squeeze berry said:
> ...



Why would I bother?


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## OldLady (Aug 27, 2016)

JoeMoma said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...


All of those things are true  (except that I'm "racial profiling" lol).   What the OP is getting at is the more subtle influences in our society that handicap a lot of African Americans because of the "birth lottery," as you call it.  I will grant you that things are a lot better than they were when I was a girl, but it's not a done deal yet that we live in a colorblind society.


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## JoeMoma (Aug 27, 2016)

OldLady said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> > OldLady said:
> ...


The thing is, dwelling on how unfair things may be is self defeating.  We all have control over our own futures by the decisions we make.  Now let's go out and do great things and stop playing the blame game.  If blacks want to play the blame whitey game then they have found a way to justify being losers.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 27, 2016)

OldLady said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> > OldLady said:
> ...


You literally said "white people are racists", THAT is racial profiling.

Go die in a ditch grandma.


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## JoeMoma (Aug 27, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > JoeMoma said:
> ...


Oh My!  OldLady and I certainly don't agree on some things, but I certainly wish her the best.  Please do not go die in a ditch.


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## OldLady (Aug 27, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > JoeMoma said:
> ...


No, I didn't literally say that.  I do not automatically look at a white guy and say "Racist;" fortunately that is nowhere near the truth.   White privilege isn't the same as racism.  White privilege is a subtle frame of mind that, through ignorance, makes it difficult for some people to understand that there is still an unspoken handicap at play if you are an African American.  If it doesn't apply to you, move on and shut your trap.
If I've got you losing your temper, though, I have hope I'm hitting a nerve.
I look forward to reading your argument here on Monday.   Maybe it will help me understand your position and the position of many of your Buds here.

Nothing you have told me so far explains your responses to me or why you have made it a habit to mock and disrespect my views in every thread for weeks now with a "funny."   I doubt if it is your way of building my "Likes" total.
I'm beginning to wonder if you, Sir, are part of that "Alt Right" crew which is being equally vehemently denied elsewhere on this board.


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## katsteve2012 (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > white privilege = white superiority
> ...



Good point, but anything beyond a monosyllabic phrase like "See spot run" on a flash card is a comprehension stretch for the dunce that you are responding to. 

Kind of like trying to dress a dumb ass donkey in a Brioni suit.


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## PredFan (Aug 27, 2016)




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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

JoeMoma said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > JoeMoma said:
> ...



Red:
As a white male, I don't dwell on those things at all, nor do I act or think in ways consistent with actively availing myself of the advantages I have due merely to my being a white male.  I doubt most folks -- black or white -- do.  However, I am aware of the the societal blessings my whiteness and maleness afford me.

The point of the OP is to try to illustrate the types of "unfairness" that simply do not apply to white folks.


Blue:
We do.  What we don't all have is complete control.  I happen to feel as though I have had 100% control over my life by dint of the choices I made for myself.  Now the reality is that I probably didn't have 100% control.  More likely is that I have had some less than 100% control over my life's progress and outcomes.  If, say, that percentage is 85%, or even 45% (the actual percentage doesn't matter), fine.  That is what it is.  However, non-whites who are similarly situated as I -- born to a well-to-do family, top 5%  performers in school and college, top 10% in their profession, top 1% in actual earnings, etc. -- despite being "just as good" as I am at "doing their thing," merely because they are not white have had something less than 85% control over their life's progress and outcomes. 

Might that delta be 1%?  13.67%  10%?  40%?  65%?  Some other percent?  I don't know; I have no way to accurately quantify the overall impact.  I know there is an impact, and I know it's unfair that the impact exists.  The delta between a white person's extent of control and and a non-white person's control is white privilege.

The other thing is this.  Minorities know that delta and its impact(s) exist even if I or other whites don't realize it does.  Now at times minorities may inaccurately determine that an outcome or concern they experience is due to white privilege and on other occasions, their assessment may be accurate.  For a some of those occasions, there's just no way to prove whether the observed/felt outcome/concern is due to white privilege or something else, but for some of them, white privilege is the only thing it can be attributed to.  It is from those occasions that we know come to know white privilege exists.


Green:
As goes "the blame game," by acknowledging my white privilege, I'm not blaming myself or most other individual white folks for anything.  I don't feel guilty because I happen to benefit from being white.  I do benefit from that and I know I do at times, even when it doesn't cross my mind overtly that I may be benefitting.

There's nobody alive today who can be blamed for actually causing inequity and race-based comforts present in our culture.  There are people who can be blamed for allowing or encouraging their persistence,  but aside from avowed members of groups like the KKK, Aryan Nation and the like, I have no general way to say who those folks are.  I can, when I see a white individual perpetuate it, speak up and say, "this isn't fair to 'so and so'" or "this activity/policy/belief/requirement/judgment is inequitable to non-whites, or a particular non-white person."  I can refuse to be party to maintaining my privilege that accrues to me solely from my being white.


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## JoeMoma (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> > OldLady said:
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To quote HRC: "Sigh"


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


I am poor white and live with Mexican illegals and blacks. Boy howdy do they LOVE to lord that over poor whites, so what PRIVILEGE?  None of my relatives owned slaves, and gained nothing , It's not anyone's fault they are born white, and I am tired of this blame game alt LEFT bullshit. Enough of the blame games.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

JoeMoma said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > JoeMoma said:
> ...



Okay...let's consider WP and its non-/existence from a different angle.

Assuming the ability to prove (or disprove) the existence of white privilege hold constant...

What is lost by presuming it does it exist?  (Support your assertions using scholarly research or via inductive logic rather than rhetorically.)
Lost by whites -- individual level and as a class?
Lost by minorities-- individual level and as a class?
Lost by society overall?

What is gained by presuming that it does it exist?  (Support your assertions using scholarly research or via inductive logic rather than rhetorically.)
Gained by whites -- individual level and as a class?
Gained by minorities-- individual level and as a class?
Gained by society overall?


Assign relative weightings to the things you assess are gained and lost such that the sum of all weightings = 100.  Provide justification (use scholarly research or valid and sound inductive/deductive reasoning) for the weightings.


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> ...




Playing the victim again, Mexico Mary?


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


 You are the perfect example of a alt Leftie.  Japanese digbat.


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
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> > MaryL said:
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What the hell does any of that mean, MM?


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
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Um, I misspelled ding bat... You aren't going ape shit? OK. Illegals always play the victims, just like the Japanese  when the anniversary of Hiroshima rolls around. But how you side with either.  Japan and Mexico, both make them selves out to be victims of the backlash they created.


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## westwall (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...








What a fucking joke.  I was born poor and lived in a truck for 6 years when I was a kid.  Where the hell do I have to go for my "white privilege"?


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## ptbw forever (Aug 27, 2016)

OldLady said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > OldLady said:
> ...


what is the alt right?

"Why do they hate whites? Because whites are racist"

Get out of here with your bullshit grandma.


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

UNKOKATRE: Where DO you LIVE, anyway? What country are you from, Asian, wealthy and isolated, where the hell are you coming from? You have been wonderfully ambiguous. Well, enough. Give it up.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> I am poor white and live with Mexican illegals and blacks. Boy howdy do they LOVE to lord that over poor whites, so what PRIVILEGE?



Try not internalizing/personalizing the concept of white privilege.  It's not about you, MaryL, specifically.  Does every privilege noted in the OP apply to you?  Perhaps not; I wouldn't expect every single one does, but every single one doesn't need to for white privilege to still exist.

It's about the fact that the majority or plurality group has benefits that other groups do not.  Since in the U.S., white folks are the majority group, they get the benefits of being the majority.  Thus it's called "white privilege."  I think earlier in this thread (maybe a different thread?  I don't recall) about Han privilege which exists in China.  The Han are the majority ethnic group in China, thus "Han privilege."

A few minutes ago I wrote about how white privilege is in one contexts about extents of control over one's destiny be it the next 10 minutes or the next ten years, frankly.  In terms of that, you may find that in your localized community, you don't have any particular privilege because you are not among the majority.  However, in the larger context, the one that isn't constrained by your immediate circumstances, you absolutely have privileges/benefits that, say, blacks do not.

For example, consider point #4 in the OP.  Think carefully and honestly about that.  Ask yourself (I'm not asking you to tell us the answer if you don't want to) whether when you look at an individual your "bar" for assessing their beauty is given by the standards of Western culture, white culture or by the standards of the culture to which the individual belongs.






















I can't speak for you, but of the women above, one can think what one wants, but I don't think the last woman is "hot" at all.  Yet in her own culture, she's "all that and a bag of chips" and there's no way my wife or daughter would even, in her world, come close.

The following women are I suspect most white Americans would say they are pretty, but compared with Megyn Kelly, whom do you think would be thought more or less pretty?  Again, I'm not asking about an individual's preferences, I'm asking about how they'd be viewed on a cultural level.


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## westwall (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > I am poor white and live with Mexican illegals and blacks. Boy howdy do they LOVE to lord that over poor whites, so what PRIVILEGE?
> ...







Bullshit.  The only determiner of what you can do, or not do,  is money.  Oprah there can buy me 100 times over.  Guess what, that BLACK woman has far more privilege than I ever will.   Your statements are ridiculous.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > I am poor white and live with Mexican illegals and blacks. Boy howdy do they LOVE to lord that over poor whites, so what PRIVILEGE?
> ...


Anyone in the US would say the 1st picture in the last set has the best looking woman.

Megyn isn't even good looking. Try comparing them to Ainsley Earhart or Jenna Lee if you want to use Fox News women next time.


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## westwall (Aug 27, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...







They're ALL good looking women.  Even Oprah when she's made up looks good.  At her age that is good genes.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

Why is it so many folks here are internalizing this and making it about yourself?  It's not about you, Billy, Bob, Mary, Lucy, Helen, etc.  Step away from yourself for just a moment and think in terms of classes of people rather than whether you get the short end of the stick at times.

Are you driving at the fact that some whites have more privilege than other whites?  Okay fine, some whites do have more privilege than do others.  That's not the point.  The point is that whites as a class have privileges that non-whites as a class simply cannot, don't and won't have, at least not anytime soon.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

westwall said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...



Good Lord.  It's not about you.  It's not about Oprah.  It's about white folks as a group of people, as a class; it's about minorities as a group, as a class.  It's about the comparative societal advantages the group members have in a general sense.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 27, 2016)

westwall said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


You have low standards.

Oprah was not even the least bit attractive when she was young.


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Sorry. I like monoculturalism  Western  norms from the 50's. I AM GOOD WITH the   50'S . No mass shootings or illegal aliens, Just commies. Imaginary enemies. I would step back there in a second, this fear of reality is even worse.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


You couldn't hope to prove half of this stuff on even the smallest scale.


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## westwall (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Why is it so many folks here are internalizing this and making it about yourself?  It's not about you, Billy, Bob, Mary, Lucy, Helen, etc.  Step away from yourself for just a moment and think in terms of classes of people rather than whether you get the short end of the stick at times.
> 
> Are you driving at the fact that some whites have more privilege than other whites?  Okay fine, some whites do have more privilege than do others.  That's not the point.  The point is that whites as a class have privileges that non-whites as a class simply cannot, don't and won't have, at least not anytime soon.







Why are you internalizing it?  The black experience is no different from the Slavic experience.  They were all slaves at one point in their history.  The blacks STILL enslave their people in Africa.  Face it, the whole concept of "white privilege" is bullshit designed to absolve a group of people for their inability to advance themselves.  They aren't pathetic because they're black.  They are pathetic because they're lazy pricks who want something for nothing.  

How do I know this?  Because there are a whole bunch of white folks who do, and behave the same.  It's not a color issue.  It's a character issue.  They have bad characters and they've been able to convince a bunch of morons that it isn't their fault, but the morons fault.

Hello moron...


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

You know what else it's about?  It's about the fact that every one of us knows that in the U.S. we have very real race issues and to improve things we need to ameliorate those issues, yet people actually have read the OP, and despite the fact that they know there are many minorities for whom the denial of the existence of white privilege is a source of distrust of whites, yet folks here, presumably white folks, think being told how minorities see it is funny.  

There's nothing funny about it.  There's nothing funny about the race issues in the U.S.  There's nothing funny about the fact that our nation is divided and people in the majority, rather than trying to understand the entirety of the emotional and tangible nature of what minorities assert they observe, a material share of the majority group discount, or fully deny, the verity of those people's claims and expressions of dismay and hurt as foolish, absurd, zero-sum positioning, etc., and yet think they should be trusted and believed when, as members of the majority, one says they are not biased or that one is indifferent about race.  Do you truly not see how taking that stance does not engender trust by people who in their very being are certain they've been slighted, and both they and the majority know who is and who is not in possession of the power of majority?

I don't know what most folks learn about conflict and trust resolution, but I can tell you that denying the genuinely offered pleas of the other party to the conflict isn't ever going to lead to any sort of win-win resolution.


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...






Again, you fail to answer a question, MM.


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Really. Speaking of failures. I actually came clear as to where I come from, Both my  great  grand parents  came from legal immigrant European background. From the mid to late 1890's. Your turn, Unkotare.


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> UNKOKATRE: Where DO you LIVE, anyway? What country are you from, Asian, wealthy and isolated, where the hell are you coming from? .....





I've only posted about 1000 times that I am an American of Irish ancestry. Not Asian, not wealthy, not isolated. Got it, MM? Try to pay attention during your brief and infrequent lucid moments.











One great (or great-great?) grandmother came over as an indentured servant when just a young child. One great grandfather left Ireland a brash young lad, hopping on a ship just hours ahead of the British Military, who were quite upset about something. Oh, and there are other tales I could tell, but no one wants to be bored with all that.


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > UNKOKATRE: Where DO you LIVE, anyway? What country are you from, Asian, wealthy and isolated, where the hell are you coming from? .....
> ...


Erin go bragh, all the time we have posted together, can I remember you ever  stating that. Thank you.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 27, 2016)

westwall said:


> They are pathetic because they're lazy pricks want something for nothing.



Asserting or acknowledging the verity of white privilege neither asks for anything (in the sense of your post) nor gives anything.  It's nothing more than recognizing that the majority group has advantages other groups don't.  In the U.S. the majority group is white people and we have privileges as a result of being the majority.  In China, the majority is Han, and they have privilege that non-Han just don't.  In Muslim countries, it's Muslim privilege.  It's the same basic concept; it's just that in the U.S. it derives from whiteness rather than ethnicity, or faith.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> You know what else it's about?  It's about the fact that every one of us knows that in the U.S. we have very real race issues and to improve things we need to ameliorate those issues, yet people actually have read the OP, and despite the fact that they know there are many minorities for whom the denial of the existence of white privilege is a source of distrust of whites, yet folks here, presumably white folks, think being told how minorities see it is funny.
> 
> There's nothing funny about it.  There's nothing funny about the race issues in the U.S.  There's nothing funny about the fact that our nation is divided and people in the majority, rather than trying to understand the entirety of the emotional and tangible nature of what minorities assert they observe, a material share of the majority group discount, or fully deny, the verity of those people's claims and expressions of dismay and hurt as foolish, absurd, zero-sum positioning, etc., and yet think they should be trusted and believed when, as members of the majority, one says they are not biased or that one is indifferent about race.  Do you truly not see how taking that stance does not engender trust by people who in their very being are certain they've been slighted, and both they and the majority know who is and who is not in possession of the power of majority?
> 
> I don't know what most folks learn about conflict and trust resolution, but I can tell you that denying the genuinely offered pleas of the other party to the conflict isn't ever going to lead to any sort of win-win resolution.


As someone who dismisses the legimate concerns of the alt-right, you have absolutely no room to talk.


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

How does one apply for white privilege? So far, I  have to pay all my bills and taxes none the less, and it doesn't matter my skin color. Is there a special tax shelter?


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> ...the   50'S . No mass shootings or illegal aliens, ...




Wrong


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## westwall (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > They are pathetic because they're lazy pricks want something for nothing.
> ...






So, according to you, any group that is successful is only because it has advantages over some other group...for whatever reason that you deem.  Is that about it?  If I wish to claim that martians are keeping me down because of their privilege, that my unwillingness to work, that my unwillingness to get a education, all of that is not germane.  It's only the fact that they are martians.  That about cover it?


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > ...the   50'S . No mass shootings or illegal aliens, ...
> ...


Right.


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...



Don't hurt yourself by trying to think about it.


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


About WHAT? Tell me?


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Being that I grew up in the early sixties,  mainly white mainstream Isenhower white bread world, low crime and peaceful.  The traditional 60's with it the  anti establishment alt Lib world with  race riots, racism and disdain for the white culture makes me wonder, is this a Brave new world?


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2016)

MaryL said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
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The fact that there was no 24/7 media in the 50s? The fact that not everyone in the world was a walking camera in the 50s? That the size and mandate of any border controls were very different in the 50s? If you are not on drugs you should start, because you really need an excuse.


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## MaryL (Aug 27, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


In the 50's nobody cared about illegal aliens. And surprisingly, open borders were not an  problem. Open borders  or Immigration, not the problem, boyo, the people that exploit illegals , use them as new era slaves and pretend that its just about jobs no one else will do when it's really about about how nouveau   slave owners of either republican or democrat can excuse their  dabblings with  poor illegal aliens. Oh, they are Hispanic! And they didn't  let them selves be used, silly me, everyone is innocent here, really?


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## JoeMoma (Aug 27, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


Typing on my little iPad with my index finger, I'm not going to write (or cut and paste) a disertation in response to your post.  I will fill you in on my prospective from my tiny little nitche in the world.  Where I work there are many people of various races and colors with equal status to me.  Our boss is a black man and he is both a good boss and a good man.  In my part of the world, white privilege is no more important than many other types of privilege.  A coworker friend of mine is black.  His wife is white and they are about to have a daughter.  We are celebrating by giving them a shower on Thursday.  The playing field in my part of the world seems very level, regardless of color.
I am aware that racism still exist.  It probably aways will.  What I don't see is the  benefit in the way "White Priviledge" is being presented other than an excuse for failure.  Also, I don't believe that white privilege is so much an issue as cultural privilege.  The children of a well educated two parent home are much more privileged than the children of a mother and 5 different baby's daddies regardless of the color of the parents.  Some black children purposely don't do well in school because that's too white.  Blacks will have little problem achieving when they adopt a culture of achievement.  Many Asians out perform whites because of their culture of achievement.


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## Unkotare (Aug 28, 2016)

MaryL said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...




You are fantasizing about a past too distant to be of personal experience in any practical way. Just more empty obtuse "dem good 'ol days" musing.


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## Iceweasel (Aug 28, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> I ask myself on a daily basis, "What do I have that I didn’t earn?"
> -- Peggy MacIntosh​
> White Privilege is being able to move into a new neighborhood and being fairly sure that your neighbors will be pleasant to you and treat you with respect.
> 
> ...


Those are hilarious, thanks! Who was the comedian that put it together, does he have more stuff?


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## Iceweasel (Aug 28, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Scratching your head and thinking about what I wrote and what is in the linked documents -- docs I suspect nobody who has responded has read yet --  is among the more mature responses I've seen thus far.  Thinking about the OP and linked content what one is supposed to do.


It was a joke piece, don't tell me you took it seriously? It reminded me of the Eddy Murphey skit on SNL where he was made up like a white man and discover when no negroes were around white people partied, helped each other out and gave each other stuff.


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## OldLady (Aug 28, 2016)

ptbw forever said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > ptbw forever said:
> ...


That was a different thread where everyone was using the same broad brush to speak of blacks and whites as general groups and their general attitudes.   Context matters.   Maybe you should go work for the NYTimes.


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## daws101 (Aug 28, 2016)

MaryL said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...


Really what about operation wetback?
I think your memories of that time are romanticized and not accurate.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 28, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > They are pathetic because they're lazy pricks want something for nothing.
> ...





westwall said:


> So, according to you, *any group that is successful is only because it has advantages over some other group*...for whatever reason that you deem. * Is that about it?* * If I wish to claim that martians are keeping me down because of their privilege, that my unwillingness to work, that my unwillingness to get a education, all of that is not germane.  It's only the fact that they are martians.  That about cover it?*



First of all, thank you for presenting your paraphrasing of how you see the thoughts I expressed and their implications and then asking whether your representation is accurate.  

Second,  I know this a very long post.  I don't need a rapid reply.  I know there's a lot to digest here.

Third, Google the following and notice the preponderance of the types of people you see depicted:

Normal people 
Ugly people
Good looking people

One must be perceived as white to receive the benefits (privileges) of being white; however, everyone can succumb to the thought process that ascribes privilege to whites.  Read on to see what this means.

Red:
No!  Within the existential context of what white privilege is-- notice the OP's 18 points each say "white privilege _is_"_ -- _ that is not "about it."  As I read your words, they appear to describe a cause and effect process that transcends the scope of what I wrote.  What your "red" sentence appears to presume what I'm saying, in brief, amounts to this:

Being white comes with privileges..
Those privileges result in a variety of advantages/benefits that accrue to whites and that other similarly situations ethnicities/races do not enjoy (in the U.S.).
Those advantages' mere existence are the _only_ reason whites (as a class or as individuals) are successful.
What I am saying includes #1 and #2, but does not, as a foregone conclusion, include #3. 

Can certain white individuals deliberately exploit one or several of their white privileges so as to achieve success?  Yes. 
Do some white individuals do that?  Yes.
Do all white individuals do that?  No.  

What white individuals do that?  White racists and bigots.

Can non-white individuals exploit the same privileges to enable or ensure their own success?  _Mostly_, no.
Why not?  Because as non-whites, they have neither the privilege nor the benefits deriving from it.
What non-white individuals may be able to exploit one or several of their white privileges so as to achieve success?  The non-whites who are perceived as being white and who may be so inclined to "pass" as white.  If they were to attest to being white, nobody would question it.  For example (By including the photos below, I'm not suggesting/saying any of these folks, for their own part, actively attempt to "pass" or do not attempt actively to "pass."):
Wentworth Miller -- black father; white mother -- Have you seen the TV Series _Prison Break_?  He's on a TV show called _Legends of Tomorrow_ too.

















Meghan Markle -- black mother; white father







Rashida Jones -- Quincy Jones, father; Peggy Lipton, mother







Carol Channing -- Did not reveal that she's biracial until 2002.  Played the title character in _Hello Dolly, _a 964 Broadway musical.  I can promise you, nobody saw "Dolly" as a black woman.  I don't know if Carol Channing ever said, "I'm a white woman," but I suspect she may never have been asked either.  I certainly would not have asked.








Michael Fosberg --Action movie actor Michael Fosberg didn’t know that he was passing when he played white characters. He was 32 and well into his career before his mother revealed to him that the man he knew as his father wasn’t and that his real dad was a black man.







Kris Humphries -- Irish + German + black 







Cash Warren -- half black; half white






What non-white individuals cannot exploit one or several of white privileges so as to achieve success?  (Each person below is half black and half white much as are several folks above.)  If these folks said, "I'm white," who would believe them?
Barack Obama 







Halle Berry







Shemar Moore







Raven Simone, Rhianna, Drake







Rachael Dolezal -- This woman is white and chose to "pass" as black.








Can one be white and actively give up one's white privilege?  No.

What can a white person do about white privilege? 
Be aware of what it is.
Be aware of how it manifests itself.  
If you have a black friend, you can craft a small experiment to see it for yourself.  Go together to a city shopping district (not a mall) like Madison Ave or Rodeo Drive. It doesn't need to be "posh" it just needs to be a street comprised of retail shops, hair and other grooming salons, travel agencies, and restaurants (ones that have a host/maitre d') that are open (don't try this during the Christmas season).  Have your black friend walk into the business from the street while you wait across the street or down the street just so that you aren't seen to be clearly with him.  Have him ask to use the restroom.  You do the same.  Repeat the experiment using different styles of dress, grooming, speech patterns dialects, in posh and non-posh districts, different genders between you and the friend, etc. Compare results at each store.

Refrain from "buying into" the stereotypes that give rise and that give "legs" to it.



What you've noted is the distinction between white privilege and discrimination.  White privilege is not racism.  It is not discrimination.  It is what allows racism and discrimination to exist/persist.

I have white privilege.  That does not make me a racist or not a racist.  That I have it does not mean I unfairly discriminate or do not unfairly discriminate for or against others, white and non-white.  What I do with or as a result of my white privilege is what makes me a racist/non-racist, unfair discriminator/fair discriminator.

I can "use" my white privilege to benefit a non-white -- I shouldn't need to do this, but that doesn't mean that there are not instances where my mere presence with a minority person, in the minds of some people (not all people, and not necessarily even some white people), confers on them a presumption of "being okay."  That should not happen, but it does.  

One of my black close acquaintances and I went to look at a car some time back.  He'd gone to the store before, but left because nobody so much as greeted him.  He was just annoyed that he wasn't accorded the presumption of being a legitimate customer.  

I was mildly curious about the car brand's current offerings (I guess that's a "guy" thing), so I persuaded him to go to the store to see the car.  It truly was just to kill time while our ladies were shopping.  We went, a salesperson (black) approached, greeted us both, and proceeded to direct his conversation toward me.  I let him go on for a minute or two, and when he finally asked how soon I might like to buy the car, I told him, "I don't intend to buy one at all.  It's my friend who may buy one.  I'm just along for the ride."  We both "looked expensive" -- well groomed, wearing jeans, a nice shirt, expensive shoes and watches and sport jackets.  (Yes, he bought the car.)
The car salesman clearly assumed I was the buyer.  Was he discriminating against my pal?  In a way, yes, even though it was clearly not in an "end of the world/scarred for life" way.  Was he behaving in accordance with the assumptions of white privilege?  Yes.  Does what my associate experienced (when he went without me or when we went together) ever happen to me?  No; not once in my whole life has it happened.



​You may have seen this video.  Watch it again. Hopefully you'll be able to watch it without conjuring in your mind why folks are wrong or right because a lot of it is folks discussing their emotions and generally speaking, folks are never wrong when they describe their own emotions.  If you do watch it again, try to pay attention to the facial expressions and body language of the people in it.  Look for folks showing dismissive body language and facial expressions.  Look also for folks whose subconscious communication indicates sincerity or neutrality, or empathy/sympathy, annoyance, insouciance, guilt, and other emotions/thoughts that are provide nonverbal cues that are inconsistent with the words that come out of their mouth.

http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2011/05/facial-expressions.aspx

One of the best known illustrations of the disconnect between words and body language is this:


How to Tell If Someone Is Lying

The Ultimate Guide to Body Language

Guide to Reading Microexpressions - Science of People

Thoughts from various segments of the video: 

5:40 -- "I found myself trying to count other white people here.  I've never done anything like that before,"  Dakota said.  He did that for the very same reason black folks do it:   trepidation.  He knows there are race issues in America and he's looking to figure out whether there's a "safe haven" of sorts somewhere or whether he's going to have to face "whatever" on his own and if/as it comes.
7:04 -- One woman mentioned that upon seeing a black person walking down the street, she went the other way just because the person was black.  (That she did that is downright bizarre for presumably this happened in the town in which she lives which has one black family in it, and their kids went to the same school as she.  )  Is that discrimination?  No, unless one thinks that the black person may have somehow been denied a benefit by having passed her on the street.  Is her behavior indicative of some sort of attitudinal bias, perhaps enough that it can be called racism?  Yes.  
7:27 -- "They may be nice in your face, but behind your back, they're going to say something."  That is an expression of the trepidation and distrust of whites in general that many blacks have.  Years ago, it was very often fully justified.  These days, I think it's less often justified, but unlike for most of the 20th century and before where the justification was plain to see, these days, white people's behaviors and words are less overtly racist/discriminatory, so it's much harder for black folks to tell whom they can trust.  

Even though it's likely the actual quantity of white's holding racist attitudes is less than in the 1940s, say, that it's harder for non-whites to tell which whites hold those views and which don't may make things worse rather than better.  (It's a paradoxical dilemma that I don't mind discussing, just not in this post.)
7:56 -- Here you get to see the very real pain associated with not having one element of privilege that white folks do.  Below I share an anecdote about how I experienced something similar, however, my response was contempt and indignance, not pain or sadness.  Why?  Because as a white male, I knew they were being rudely presumptive, rather than racially assumptive.

I used to live in what was called the "gay ghetto."  It is a term that means "a neighborhood inhabited overwhelmingly by gay people."  When some straight guys who knew about the neighborhood, and who didn't know me more than in passing, learned I lived there, once in a while some of them had the gall to ask  "why do you live in the gay part of town?" or "was I gay?."  These people were in no position to expect me to tell them why I lived where I did.**  I clearly wasn't trying to "hit on" them nor they on me, so what relevance had my sexuality to them?  None, of course.   (There is also the Jewish ghetto.)

But the "ghetto" -- no modifier -- means one and only one thing:  a place, usually in cities/towns where poor, disadvantaged black and/or Latino folks live largely in squalor, amidst rampant crime and nobody who doesn't live there is presumed safe upon going there.  Now were it so that the same basic traits -- save for being black or Latino -- understood to apply to the gay or Jewish ghetto, there'd be nothing to say.  Were it so that when folks say "ghetto," (rather than, say, "gay ghetto") it would be necessary to ask, "White or black," there'd be nothing to say.

Now one might say that being "trailer trash" is the white equivalent of being "ghetto."  There's no question many similarities exist between the folks who live in each.  Yet, even there white privilege, though not much of it, accrues to "trailer trash" folks that does not accrue to "ghetto" folks.

White Trash Blues: Class Privilege v. White Privilege
Black lives, privilege and poor, white trash
Poor Whites and Blacks Have Much in Common. But...
**Note:
Hell, some of them neither asked nor were invented to refer to me by my first name, yet they took it upon themselves to do so.  Perhaps they felt taking that liberty made us more closely acquainted?....  I don't know; neither did I try to find out.  ....At any rate, nothing could have been farther from the truth.  It militated for my keeping them at a distance.  I've never been slow to invite folks to use my given name, but I don't cotton to folks unbidden obliging themselves of doing so.​
I can't force folks to treat me the way I, anyone deserves to be treated.  I can, however, keep them from ingratiating themselves with me.  I learn a tiny bit about another's character based on, among other things, what liberties they take verus which they await being offered.  

I'm not suggesting those fellows aren't nice people; they may well have been and be; I never let them get close enough to me to find out because they didn't see fit, as matter of course, to accord to me the level of respect I gave them.  They just aren't the kind of people whom I want close in my life, and, for the purpose of keeping this digression in the context of this post, their ethnicity/race or social status had nothing to do with it.  

Indeed, they each were white, upper class, well educated, intelligent, etc.  They are ostensibly my social and intellectual peers.  They just aren't of the right character.  And, yes, I am sure that my disaffection with them has cost them nothing, and I wanted not that it cost them anything.​
9:08 to 10:05 in the video  -- In this part of the video
12:08to 12:19 -- The woman's statement points to the question "what, as whites, must we do earn the trust of non-whites such that when they encounter whites, among the thoughts in the back of their minds isn't, "Does this person view me as their peer, view me as being as "worthy" of their approbation, sympathy or benefit of the doubt as any white person whom they know as well or as little, or their subordinate, even just slightly subordinate?"  That thought is the very same trepidation Brandon experienced upon arriving at an HBC.
18:13 - 20:30 -- Very eye opening discussion on whites and college scholarships.  I was quite surprised by this.  I've heard all the "hype" about how it's so hard for whites to get non-loan college financial assistance
22:00 -- 23:37 -- Katy:  "I feel like you guys are attacking me now."  I can tell she's sincere about what she's feeling.  I don't know why she feels attacked.  Nobody attacked her.  I'm no "shrink," but it seems to me that Katy construed as an attack the mere act of having being shown that her preconceptions were mistaken or derived from misunderstanding the reality of the topic.  She notes that her view is what it is because of her experiences.  I think she's right about that, but I also think she has an obligation to look beyond her own experiences and find out whether her world view is indeed the way the world is.  In some cases, it will be, in others it will not.  

Interestingly, Katy is smart and very well educated, but she's nonetheless displayed precisely what I call cognitive/intellectual disingenuousness or a lack of intellectual integrity/objectivity.  She's hardly the only smart person who has or does, nor will she be the last to do so.  Moreover, I agree too that it's hard, and frightening to exercise intellectual integrity; it's also as disillusioning as is Katy's discovering that the "promises" her made may not come true.  That's a big blow, for there she is having trusted them to guide her to "greatness," and now she's discovering their instructions/assertions weren't as valid as she and they thought they would/should be.  I've had my share of "come to Jesus" moments too, but I have far fewer of them these days than I did in the past.
24:00 - 24:23 -- Katy notes that because she didn't get the scholarship she hoped to get that she felt excluded because she is white.  She's right that nobody should be excluded just for their race or be made to feel that way.  White privilege is that thing which leads white folks _to think_ we won't -- not "should not," but rather quite simply "won't" -- be excluded from anything due to the color of their skin.  It's what creates surprise, or anger or disillusionment if/when it appears to happen, or when it really does happen.  Non-whites, in contrast, are certain that sooner or later they will be denied something because they are not white.  (This goes directly to points 14-16 in the OP.)

I give Katy credit.  Though the scholarship she wanted didn't just fall into her lap because she asked for it -- the easy thing that could have happened -- she's going to do what it takes to effect her near term goal of going to the school she prefers.  That is the right thing for her to do and it's the right attitude.  It doesn't blame others for what she did not receive.  And that is something that minorities do everyday.
23:25 -- This segment discusses being colorblind to race.  

What I found interesting is that the conversation the young guy had with his parents is similar to one I had with my own parents, and particularly with my father who, he and I both freely admit was a "dyed in the wool" Southern racist for the vast majority of his life.  Is the guy's dad a racist as my father was (to some extent still is)?  I doubt it, seriously doubt it.  

Daddy's 97 and from a Southern "plantation" family that had indentured servants after the "War of Northern Aggression."  Yet shockingly there are folks around today who have exactly the same concepts of race that Granddaddy did.

The guy's father says, "I don't want to feel ashamed of being white."  I get that.  He shouldn't.  I don't feel ashamed of being white, white and from an old and well-to-do family, white and (formerly..LOL..too old for that to apply now LOL) good looking, or anything else.  It is what it is; I don't need to deny that it is in order to feel comfortable in my own skin.  All I need to do is eschew the arbitrariness that comes from my having the white privilege I have.

As I noted earlier, white privilege isn't something to be embarrassed about having.  What one does with it is what one may or may not rightly be a source of chagrin.
31:14 - 31:17 -- The guy asks his parents how they felt about the class session.  His mother's reply, "You did good." She's complimentary, but that compliment doesn't directly address how she felt, which is what she was asked about.  It definitely doesn't address the substantive content of the class.  I'm sure it was a lot for her and her husband to take in and confront head-on; it's just not a thing they ever really had to deal with deal with it they did not.  It's not easy to deal with it either.  

Blue:
No, that's not about it.  What you'e described is not "Martian privilege."  That is called lack of motivation on the part of anyone.  A person or class' (non-white or white) being unmotivated, uninnovative, poorly or uneducated (this being a function of what they actually learned, not what someone tried to teach them), unskilled, and unwilling to alter those existential traits is going to be unsuccessful and it won't matter what unearned privileges they were born with.  If rich "trust fund" kids never apply themselves at anything, they may very well be able to live quite well, maybe even extravagantly, off their trust fund (if it produces enough income), but they will be neither more nor less successful than will far poorer persons who similarly fails to apply themselves.  That "trust fund" kids is just "along for the ride," that someone who is/was successful gave them the trust fund merely makes the ride comfortable.

My colleague who bought the car (above) isn't unmotivated by any means.  All he is is black, as was the salesman.


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## OldLady (Aug 28, 2016)

320, there is a show on CNN called "United Shades of America" which the couple times I've seen it explores "fringe" groups, or the road less traveled types.  Last night I saw the episode on the KKK.
So many of the arguments I hear here were the same ones being voiced by the Grand Poobahs of an Arkansas KKK chapter.    
What I'm wondering now is, are there a lot of people who share those beliefs without the hate?  Who don't believe there is white privilege or believe in Affirmative Action but have nothing against blacks?  Did those folks give the argument to the "New" Klan, which adopted them under the guise of being logical, or did the white supremacists formulate the stances and persuade a lot of unbiased people to think it was reasonable? 
I absolutely refuse to believe that all conservatives are racist--I know better.  But it is very hard to sort out people's intentions on this subject.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 28, 2016)

Iceweasel said:


> It was a joke piece, don't tell me you took it seriously?



I did because there was nothing indicating that I should not have:  LOL, JK, etc.  

I cannot read your mind or anyone else's.  I'm very good, however, at applying the conventions and rules of standard English grammar and literary devices in order to comprehend what folks write.  There's an element of ambiguity that accompanies one's scratching one's head.  

Sometimes folks do that when they don't understand at all and are trying to; this is usually accompanied by one's asking neutrally worded questions aimed at helping them gain an understanding of some sort.  
Other times they do that when they partially understand, but not completely.  
And on yet other occasions, folks scratch their head when they fully understand and are contemplating the validity and soundness of the implications they've drawn from what they read.
I knew the first of those situations applied to you because your post asked no question, but I didn't know which of the other two did apply.  I decided that it didn't matter for either is a mature response. 

There are, of course, other reasons why folks scratch their head in response to stimuli; however, they aren't responses one makes if one is to engage in a mature discussion. I presumed you were inclined toward an adult conversation, thus my complimentary reply.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 28, 2016)

OldLady said:


> 320, there is a show on CNN called "*United Shades of America*" which the couple times I've seen it explores "fringe" groups, or the road less traveled types.  Last night I saw the episode on the KKK.
> 
> *So many of the arguments I hear here were the same ones being voiced by the Grand Poobahs of an Arkansas KKK chapter.    *
> 
> ...



I've watched several episodes of that series.

Red:
They are, and I find that disconcerting.

Blue:
I don't know.  I know that the difficulty in being able to confidently discern the answer is a huge part of why the race problems we have long faced persist.  Further confounding the challenge(s) is that folks will aver that which is in fact true just as resolutely and repeatedly as they will that which is not true.

If you have no way to tell what the day of the week is and you ask me the day of the week, and it's Tuesday, I'm going to say it's Tuesday every time you ask because it is Tuesday and I'm being 100% honest.  If I'm of a mind to mislead you into thinking it's Monday, I'll say it's Monday every time you ask because it doesn't serve my malfeasant end to change my answer.  

Now if you were to know that I had a history of lying to you, deceiving you, harming you, even though you may ask me the day of the week, you're going to be very skeptical no matter what I say.  The only think that will change your mind is my establishing with you a track record of integrity that over time erodes your lack of trust in my responses and stated intents.

It's quite the same factors in play as go race relations.   People are willing to take one's word provided one doesn't have a history of being untrustworthy or unjust.  Sadly, in the U.S. and colonies (prior to 1776 or 1788 if one prefers), white folks have nearly 500 years worth of being all sorts of despicable things toward minorities.  Of course, there were and are exceptions within the white community, sometimes even a lot of them, but the trust lost over hundreds of years and millions of abused people isn't easily regained in 70 years.


Green:
I don't know.  The only reformed, if you can call it that, racists I know really well are my father and a few kin on his side of the family.  The thing is they don't articulate the sorts of things one hears from the GP of the KKK or from the folks on USMB to whom you alluded.  They are okay with affirming that they have white privilege and have benefitted from it.  They are of varying views about the idea/prospect of giving it up but they know they have it.  

Acquaintances of my Southern kin know they have it too; they like that they do and think they deserve have it.  They will tell you unabashedly they know damn well they have white privilege and that they not about to advocate yielding it.  That, I think, is something that distinguishes my family and the people whom we invite to be a part of it (_i.e., _close family friends) from a lot of people.  

To a person, not one of us is concerned about whether anyone else likes or agrees with what we think or do.  We aren't ashamed of who we are and we aren't prevaricators.  We are like that because we each have enough self-respect not to be, and enough respect for others, minorities or not, so they know where they stand with us and we with them.  Everyone knows where the other stands and nobody wastes their time "winin' pinin' and wishin' all because they don't know 'this or that' about Billy Joe."  I wish more folks were like that; we might then be able to answer your "blue" question.


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## anotherlife (Aug 28, 2016)

What?  What whites don't understand?  Then you ******* should be deported to INDIA, where you would learn what real racism is. Hehehe.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 28, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> What?  What whites don't understand?  Then you ******* should be deported to INDIA, where you would learn what* real racism* is. Hehehe.



Red:
The highlighted term alludes to something I cannot abide:  the idea that there are better and worse flavors of racism.  But, hey, that's my take.  Perhaps folks who routinely find themselves and others of their race being objects of race-based discrimination, objectification, etc. see it differently?   

You know, I've never asked an American black or Latino person that question.  Nor has any of them said to me, "We got discriminated against, but it was just 'low grade' bias carried out by a 'small' racist," or "We got discriminated against, but it was just 'low grade' bias carried out by a 'big' racist."   As I think about it more, it occurs to me that nobody of any race has ever told me they sought to visit India to learn what "real racism" is.

Understanding the complexities of Racism in contemporary India: Challenges and the way ahead

Racial Discrimination and Human Trafficking in India: Challenges Ahead

British Raj: The Legacy of Colonialism in India

‘DALITS’ AND THE CASTE SYSTEM OF INDIA
Surely someone has wanted to do that and followed through and did it? 

Have you come across a scholarly work that compares and contrasts racism in India with that of the U.S?


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 28, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> ptbw forever said:
> 
> 
> > 320 Years of History said:
> ...


You will recall that I was tasked with arguing the existence of white privilege.  The evidence that demonstrates the existence of white privilege is found in the attached documents.


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## OldLady (Aug 29, 2016)

You're late, ptbw forever.  Better late than never, though.  Looking forward to your argument.


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## OldLady (Aug 29, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > 320, there is a show on CNN called "*United Shades of America*" which the couple times I've seen it explores "fringe" groups, or the road less traveled types.  Last night I saw the episode on the KKK.
> ...


I'm relieved you were able to figure out why I was asking the question; you articulated it for me--trust.
Thanks.


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## Iceweasel (Aug 29, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > It was a joke piece, don't tell me you took it seriously?
> ...


I had no questions, that's the main reason I asked no question. My point was you took something ridiculous very seriously, or at least seemed to.

The fact of the matter is that if you can't get ahead in theis country your skin color isn't the problem. You need to look deeper for the real problem. People can come here from any nationality, barely speaking the English language and do well but you need a cheap easy excuse to justify failure.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 29, 2016)

OldLady said:


> You're late, ptbw forever.  Better late than never, though.  Looking forward to your argument.



I'm sure that at some point he'd chosen an argumentatively untenable


Iceweasel said:


> 320 Years of History said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...



Red:
There is almost certainly no single problem, but race can be among the problems.  To the extent it is, it is a problem that whites preponderantly don't face.  The evidence that shows that is found in the documents attached to post #243.

I think it's very hard to accept what's happened to black people in this country post-slavery. I think we can accept that we had slaves -- most countries did. But very few followed it up with the Klan and Jim Crow. These facts challenge our self-image as Americans. How can redlining and Horatio Alger be true at the same time?

The black experience threatens our image as a place of great individual opportunity. Of course, if our ideals are real, we shouldn't be threatened at all. Sometimes one says something stupid and unloving to of blacks. In some cases that doesn't mean one is unempathetic toward them, but one also can't act like one never said it, or look for excuses for why one did. One confront oneself and be honest, as opposed to trying to cover one's ass.


Blue:
And yet native-born folks across the country claim they cannot get ahead.  Constantly in the news we hear recriminations of illegal immigrants taking jobs from natives; thus some want them deported.  (Nevermind that business owners risk losing key success factors or even their ability to be in business if they get caught employing illegals.)  Often there's someone on USMB griping about H1-B workers alleged willingness to accept lower wages as if that is somehow a factor.  What could be more absurd?  Who, jobless or underemployed, would not accept a "lower than prime" wage that is yet higher than their current wage if they are qualified to do the job?

Statistics show that if you are born elsewhere and later acquire American citizenship, you will, on average, earn more than us native-borns, study further, marry at higher rates and divorce at lower rates, fall out of the work force less frequently and more easily dodge poverty.  What’s curious is where this immigrant advantage is most pronounced. In left-leaning, coastal, cosmopolitan America, native-borns seem well groomed by their families, schools and communities to keep up with foreign-borns. It’s in the right-leaning “Walmart America” where foreigners have the greatest advantage.

From Mississippi to West Virginia to Oklahoma, native-borns struggle to flourish on a par with foreign-born Americans. In the 10 poorest states (just one on the East or West Coast: South Carolina), the median household of native-borns earns 84 cents for every $1 earned by a household of naturalized citizens, compared with 97 cents for native-borns in the richest (and mostly coastal) states, according to Census Bureau data. In the poorest states, foreign-borns are 24 percent less likely than native-borns to report themselves as divorced or separated, but just 3 percent less likely in the richest states. In the poorest states, foreign-borns are 36 percent less likely than native-borns to live in poverty; the disparity collapses to about half that in wealthier states like New Jersey and Connecticut.

This phenomenon is vividly manifest in the story of Raisuddin Bhuiyan (also:  "Pledges of Allegiance amid Lives Gone Awry" by Akhtar, Ayad - International New York Times, May 14, 2014 | Online Research Library: Questia &  Anand Giridharadas: A tale of two Americas. And the mini-mart where they collided | TED Talk Subtitles and Transcript | TED.com), a Muslim immigrant from Bangladesh, working in a Dallas minimart in 2001 to save for a wedding and an education; the other, Mark Stroman, shot him in a twisted post-9/11 revenge attack, blinding him in one eye, during a rampage that killed two other immigrant clerks. Mr. Bhuiyan eventually learned more about Mr. Stroman and the world that formed him. What he found astonished him, then inspired him to forgive his attacker and battle to rescue him from death row.

Mr. Bhuiyan realized that he was among the lucky Americans. Even after the attack, he was able to pick up and remake himself, climbing from that minimart to waiting tables at an Olive Garden to six-figure I.T. jobs. But Mr. Bhuiyan also saw the America that created Mr. Stroman, in which a battered working class was suffering from a dearth of work, community and hope, with many people failing to form strong bonds and filling the void with escapist chemicals, looping endlessly between prison and freedom.

Eventually, Mr. Bhuiyan petitioned a Texas court to spare his attacker’s life because he had lacked his victim’s advantages: a loving and sober family, pressure to strive and virtuous habits. The naturalized citizen claimed the native Texan hadn’t had the same shot at the American dream as the “foreigner” he’d tried to kill.

At a time when even the American middle class is struggling, a difficult question arises: Are you better off being born in some of the poorest parts of the world and moving here than being raised in the poorer parts of the United States?


There’s no easy answer. But let’s first acknowledge the obvious: Most naturalized citizens -- nearly half of America’s roughly 40 million immigrants -- arrived by choice, found employer sponsors, navigated visas and green cards. (We’re not talking here of immigrants who never reach citizenship and generally have harder lives than American citizens, native- or foreign-born.) It’s no accident that our freshest citizens have pluck and wits that favor them later.

BUT I also think there’s something more complicated going on: in those places where mobility’s engine is groaning and the social fabric is fraying, many immigrants may have an added edge because of their ability to straddle the seemingly contradictory values of their birthplaces and their adopted land, to balance individualism with community-mindedness and self-reliance with usage of the system.

American scholars have long warned of declining “social capital”: simply put, people lacking the support of others. In Texas, one encounters the wasteland described by writers from Robert D. Putnam on the left to Charles Murray on the right. In mostly white, exurban communities that often see themselves as above the woes of inner cities, one finds household after household where country music songs about family and church play but country-music values have fled: places where a rising generation is often being reared by grandparents because parents are addicted, imprisoned, broke or all three.

In places bedeviled by anomie, immigrants from more family-centered and collectivist societies -- Mexico, India, Colombia, Vietnam, Haiti, China -- often arrive with an advantageous blend of individualist and communitarian traits.  "Blend" because while they come from communal societies, they were deserters. They may have been raised with family-first values, but often they were the ones to leave aging parents. It can be a powerful cocktail: a self-willed drive for success and, leavening it somewhat, a sacrificial devotion to family and tribe. Many, even as their lives grow more independent, serve their family oceans away by sending remittances.

Mr. Bhuiyan seemed to embody this dualism. By back-home standards, he was a rugged individualist. But in America it was his "it takes a village" mettle that enabled his revival: Immigrant friends gave him medicine, sofas to sleep on, free I.T. training and job referrals.  Working at Olive Garden, Mr. Bhuiyan couldn’t believe how his colleagues lacked for support. Young women walked home alone, sometimes in 100-plus degree heat on highways, having no one to give them rides. Many colleagues lacked cars not because they couldn’t afford the lease but because nobody would cosign it. “I feel that, how come they have no one in their family -- their dad, their uncle?” he said. They told stories of chaotic childhoods that made them seek refuge in drugs and gangs.

Mr. Bhuiyan concluded that the autonomy for which he’d come to America, while serving him well, failed others who had lacked his support since birth. His republic of self-making was their republic of self-destruction. “Here we think freedom means whatever I wanna do, whatever I wanna say -- that is freedom,” he said. “But that’s the wrong definition.”

A second dimension of this in-between-ness involves the role of government. In this era of gridlock and austerity, many i*mmigrants have the advantage of coming from places where bankrupt, do-nothing governments* are no surprise. They often find themselves among Americans who are opposite-minded: leaning on the state for economic survival but socially lonesome, without community backup when that state fails.

All this has nothing to do with the superiority of values. If distrust of government made for the most successful societies, Nigeria and Argentina would be leaders of the pack. What’s interesting about so many of America’s immigrants is how they manage to plug instincts cultivated in other places into the system here. Many are trained in their homelands to behave as though the state will do nothing for them, and in America they reap the advantages of being self-starters.

But they also benefit from the systems and support that America does offer, which are inadequate as substitutes for initiative but are useful complements to it.  Like many immigrants, *Mr. Bhuiyan operated from the start like an economic loner, never expecting to get much from the government. He was willing to work at a gas station to save money.* Recovering in his boss’s home, he ordered I.T. textbooks online to improve his employability. Plunged into debt, he negotiated with doctors and hospitals to trim his bills.

The system worked for him. Robust laws prevented employers from exploiting a wide-eyed newcomer. He sued the Texas governor, in pursuit of leniency for his attacker, and was heard. Through a fund for crime victims, Texas eventually paid his medical bills.

In an age of inequality and shaky faith in the American promise of mobility through merit, we can learn from these experiences. Forget the overused idea popularized in self-help guides that native-borns must “think like an immigrant” to prosper, an exhortation that ignores much history. Rather, the success of immigrants in the nation’s hurting places reminds us that the American dream can still work, but it helps to have people to lean on. Many immigrants get that, because where they come from, people are all you have. They recognize that solitude is an extravagance.

Comparing any immigrant group to virtually any native-born group is like comparing the most ambitious members of one team with the entirety of another team. This is to say nothing of whatever skills, education and wealth a particular immigrant group may bring to bear.  American poverty is darkened by loneliness; poverty in so many poor countries I’ve visited is brightened only by community. Helping people gain other people to lean on -- not just offering cheaper health care and food stamps, tax cuts and charter schools -- seems essential to making this American dream work as well for its perennial flowers as its freshest seeds.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 29, 2016)

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That was in context. That was your entire post.

If someone said "Heil Hitler" in any context other than the one I am using right now, that someone would be rightly regarded as a Neo-Nazi, regardless of what thread they typed it in.


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## OldLady (Aug 29, 2016)

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Where's your argument to 320?  Your evidence that white privilege doesn't exist?
That's what this thread is about.


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## OldLady (Aug 29, 2016)

_Are you better off being born in some of the poorest parts of the world and moving here than being raised in the poorer parts of the United States?_

Wow.  Sad, but probably true.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 29, 2016)

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Where is his?

I wanted him to prove to me why putting in that kind of effort on a forum like this one would be fruitful in closing this huge, controversial and convoluted argument that has been raging at least since McIntosh brought it up, and instead he all but ignored that question. Where is his dialectic argument, grandma?

If he were Peggy McIntosh or Tim Wise asking me to debate this subject in front of thousands of people I would quit my fucking job and spend months to formulate the perfect arguments and counter-arguments to crush them into dust and hopefully end this shit once and for all, but spats on the Internet are all but a waste of time if you go over the minimum effort.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 29, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


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You are doing nothing but excusing racist attitudes from non-whites towards whites. The "loss of trust" is a result of many non-whites being as historically illiterate as you are and believing that poor whites(of which there were much much more than rich whites at the time)had anything to do with explicit acts carried out by the government and their wholely wealthy electorate(I.E slavery).

You also need to stop jumping around when it comes to whether "white privilege" is bad or not, and whether white people are "racists" for being willing to "give it up" or not. According to what you typed here you believe anyone who "recognizes" that they have "white privilege" and refuses to give it up is a defacto racist KKK scumbag, and that is a farcry from what you typed earlier in this very thread.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 29, 2016)

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Funny how you don't trust the NYTimes when you support the lying scum on CNN just fine.


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## OldLady (Aug 29, 2016)

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I am certainly not going to pretend to know what any of you guys are talking about when you get into "dialectic arguments"  as opposed to ... blah, blah, blah.   I'm just your average joe.  But what I've seen so far is that 320 has written several posts that explain in some detail where he is coming from on this topic and you haven't.  More mudslinging coming from you than explanations.  So regardless what fancy words you want to put on it, I thought maybe you were going to thoroughly explain and show all us liberals the error of our ways.


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## OldLady (Aug 29, 2016)

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The "lying scum" on CNN didn't say anything about the KKK.  He let them speak for themselves.  Straight out of the horse's mouth, I got those words I heard.  I was referring to the prevailing attitude here toward the Times as a lying, biased, pos.  Not my attitude.


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## Iceweasel (Aug 29, 2016)

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It might but where have blacks done better than the US?


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## Iceweasel (Aug 29, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


> Comparing any immigrant group to virtually any native-born group is like comparing the most ambitious members of one team with the entirety of another team. This is to say nothing of whatever skills, education and wealth a particular immigrant group may bring to bear.  American poverty is darkened by loneliness; poverty in so many poor countries I’ve visited is brightened only by community. Helping people gain other people to lean on -- not just offering cheaper health care and food stamps, tax cuts and charter schools -- seems essential to making this American dream work as well for its perennial flowers as its freshest seeds.


Your problem is that you have group think. You aren't a person, you are a group. People do immigrate here and do quite well and have since day one. 

Me? I am an individual and don't expect group hugs or nurturing. It's called growing up.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 29, 2016)

OldLady said:


> 320, there is a show on CNN called "United Shades of America" which the couple times I've seen it explores "fringe" groups, or the road less traveled types.  Last night I saw the episode on the KKK.
> So many of the arguments I hear here were the same ones being voiced by the Grand Poobahs of an Arkansas KKK chapter.
> What I'm wondering now is, are there a lot of people who share those beliefs without the hate?  Who don't believe there is white privilege or believe in Affirmative Action but have nothing against blacks?  Did those folks give the argument to the "New" Klan, which adopted them under the guise of being logical, or did the white supremacists formulate the stances and persuade a lot of unbiased people to think it was reasonable?
> I absolutely refuse to believe that all conservatives are racist--I know better.  But it is very hard to sort out people's intentions on this subject.


Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the KKK of today is full of more rational and logical members than it used to be due to the radical demographic changes occurring in the west forcing more intellectuals(alt-right) into such a group? Do you even understand how laughable "white privilege" will be 50 years from now?


It is not hard to see why more ordinary white people would join the most well known pro-white organization in the world at a time when white people are literally disappearing from the world stage, and at a time when it seems like everyone else is making a push to claim what has always been rightfully ours(Europe and the innovations created in the greater western world by our ancestors), especially when the KKK hasn't officially lynched anyone for 60 years. If you really hear the KKK making the same arguments as the alt-right and the greater pro-white activist network, that means those particular arguments are at a much higher level than the typical KKK caricature.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 29, 2016)

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He hasn't said anything that he didn't copy/paste from some other loon. He is part of a cult that uses nothing but circular reasoning'and anecdotes to explain everything he believes.

I know what I know because I understand that no other part of the world is collectively experiencing even a fraction of the radical demographic changes that the west is currently. You can't have "white privilege" when you aren't even sustaining a stable native or majority population with the standard 2.1 kids per family, and you certainly can't have collective majority privileges when your group is hyper individualistic and harshly divided along various demographics and political issues on top of a negative growth rate.


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## ptbw forever (Aug 29, 2016)

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They show heavily edited footage of pretty much nothing but the most militant members and then construct a narrative throughout the documentary that attacks the idea of being pro-white at all to negate any of the reasonable voices they show later.  The "progressive" media is full of the most despicable people on the planet.


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## OldLady (Aug 30, 2016)

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Heavily edited or not, I don't agree with their posture or yours.  But HONESTLY, I appreciate your explaining your stance.
It is like 320's acquaintances say,  they don't care what other people think; of course there is white privilege and they deserve it/plan to keep it.   At last, you are making sense.


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## anotherlife (Aug 30, 2016)

320 Years of History said:


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There will never be a scholarly work about this in the west, because western scholars are all programmed to believe that only white people are racist, even when they are not.  Western scholars will never teach reality, that Indians are blatantly and openly racist against Africans without holding themselves back either personally or institutionally.  And the same is true with Arabic racism against Indians.  And so on.  These things western scholars will never fathom or accept.  Reality though.  Hehehe. By the way I am white.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 30, 2016)

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Red:
Perhaps not.  I don't know.  Is there an enduringly legitimate reason for Western, American in particular, researchers to examine India's and Indian aimed racism, particularly insofar as Indian researchers have done so?

Blue:
I am disinclined to think programming has a thing to do with it.  Racism is presently defined as the confluence of prejudice and power.  Once white folks, as a class, in the U.S. no longer have the predominance of power, it will be impossible for them to be construed as racists.


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## anotherlife (Aug 31, 2016)

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I meant western in a worldwide contest, not like west of the Mississippi.  And for the definition of racism, it is political not scientific, so there are as many definitions as users to suit them, changing per day.  There is a term called reverse racism, which is also racism, and is defined as exercised by the powerless against the powerful.


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## 320 Years of History (Aug 31, 2016)

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I didn't think you meant "west of the Mississippi."  LOL


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## NCC1701 (Aug 31, 2016)

I earned everything I have, and started with nothing. I worked many years in the military-industrial complex where EEOC meant I had to be better than blacks or even women.

I could go through your list but I haven't the inclination at the moment. If you want to feel guilty then go ahead, but don't tell me I had privilege


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## ptbw forever (Sep 1, 2016)

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320 isn't even in line with any of the people he quotes on the MAJOR aspects of "white privilege".

If Tim Wise or Jane Elliot or Peggy McIntosh simply believed that "white privilege" was  "majority privilege" for white people in a majority white country, all anyone would have to do is point to the demographic changes happening in every western country to completely reverse the argument.

And even if demographics weren't changing so dramatically in the west, one could still argue that the desire for "anti-racists" that white people give up their privileges just creates an imbalance in the equation between white western peoples and the non-whites who enjoy unaltered "majority privilege" in their own much more homogenous countries.


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## ptbw forever (Sep 1, 2016)

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You mean like how it is impossible for white South Africans and white Zimbabweans to be construed as racist?

Oh wait....


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