# Maduro still has support of Iran, China, Cuba, Syria and Russia.



## Theowl32 (Jan 26, 2019)

So.....naturally the American liberal will be on Maduro's side.

We know this right?


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## Tehon (Jan 26, 2019)

It's called a right to self determination. It is a liberal ideal.


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## georgephillip (Jan 26, 2019)

*Edgardo Lander is a Venezuelan sociologist who supported the reforms Chavez brought twenty years ago, yet he also recognizes how many of Maduro's mistakes have made the situation intolerable for many Venezuelans today:

The limits of changes  Venezuela: terminal crisis of the rentier petro-state? - International Viewpoint - online socialist magazine

"The limits of changes – Venezuela: terminal crisis of the rentier petro-state?
Friday 24 October 2014, by Edgardo Lander..."
*
"Over the 15 years of the Bolivarian government in Venezuela, significant changes have taken place in the political culture, the social and organisational fabric, and the material living conditions of previously excluded low-income groups. 

"Through multiple social policies (known as 'missions') aimed at different sectors of the population, levels of poverty and extreme poverty have been reduced significantly.

"According to ECLAC, Venezuela has become – together with Uruguay – one of the two countries with the lowest levels of inequality in Latin America. 

"People are better fed. 

"Effective literacy programmes have been carried out. With Cuban support, the Barrio Adentro mission has brought primary medical care to rural and urban low-income groups throughout the country.

"The state pensions system has been massively expanded to include millions of older people. 

"The increase in university enrolment has been equally extraordinary. 

"For the last few years, a housing programme for people with low incomes has been taken forward. Unemployment has been kept at a low level and informal-sector employment has been reduced from 51% in mid-1999 to 41% in mid-2014."

*Trump is not the solution in Venezuela either.*


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## Mr Natural (Jan 26, 2019)

Who is Maduro and why should I give a shit about him/her/it?


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## Stratford57 (Jan 26, 2019)

Well, I'm not a liberal but  my home country of Ukraine is a bright example what happens when Washington interferes.

Lavrov:
This can only deepen the social divide in Venezuela, aggravate street protests, dramatically destabilise the Venezuelan political community and further escalate the conflict. The deliberate and obviously well orchestrated creation of dual power and an alternative decision-making centre in Venezuela is a *direct path towards chaos and erosion* of Venezuelan statehood.

We regard Washington’s unceremonious actions as yet another demonstration of its *total disregard for the norms and principles of international law* and an attempt to pose as the self-imposed master of another nation’s future. The United States is clearly trying to apply a tried and tested regime change scenario in Venezuela.

Venezuelans alone have the right to determine their future. Any destructive foreign interference, especially amid the current tensions, is completely unacceptable. Incitement has nothing in common with a democratic process; *it is a direct path towards lawlessness and violence.*
Foreign Ministry statement on the developments in Venezuela

Russian envoy in UN: There have been over 22 thousand people protesting against Macron in France, shall we talk about replacing Macron too? 

Same crap has happened in my home country of Ukraine: with the "help" of Obama and Soros and under total control from Washington a semi-comfortable country of Ukraine turned into the poorest country in Europe with war, corruption and human rights suppression. Washington never cares about the people: if allowed it comes and destroys the country "in the name of democracy. "


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## georgephillip (Jan 26, 2019)

Mr Clean said:


> Who is Maduro and why should I give a shit about him/her/it?







*Venezuela Assassination Attempt: Maduro Survives But Journalism Doesn’t - Global Research*


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## Oddball (Jan 26, 2019)

Theowl32 said:


> So.....naturally the American liberal will be on Maduro's side.
> 
> We know this right?


Where's Pinochet when the world needs him?


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## georgephillip (Jan 26, 2019)

Stratford57 said:


> Well, I'm not a liberal but  my home country of Ukraine is a bright example what happens when Washington interferes.
> 
> Lavrov:
> This can only deepen the social divide in Venezuela, aggravate street protests, dramatically destabilise the Venezuelan political community and further escalate the conflict. The deliberate and obviously well orchestrated creation of dual power and an alternative decision-making centre in Venezuela is a *direct path towards chaos and erosion* of Venezuelan statehood.
> ...





Stratford57 said:


> Same crap has happened in my home country of Ukraine: with the "help" of Obama and Soros and under total control from Washington a semi-comfortable country of Ukraine turned into the poorest country in Europe with war, corruption and human rights suppression. Washington never cares about the people: if allowed it comes and destroys the country "in the name of democracy. "


America's Ukraine Hypocrisy

"August 6, 2017  Topic: Politics  Region: Europe  Blog Brand: The Skeptics  Tags: UkraineRussiaTrumpObamaPutin
*America's Ukraine Hypocrisy*
Historical records show that Washington has meddled in the political affairs of dozens of countries–including many democracies...."

*Since the end of WWII, western elites have used "global" institutions like the IMF and World Bank to advance the interests of Transnational Capitalism. Ukraine and Venezuela are two of their latest victims, but they won't be the last unless major changes are made in US political leaders.




United States AFRICOM wars all over Africa?*


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## Oddball (Jan 26, 2019)

Tehon said:


> It's called a right to self determination. It is a liberal ideal.


You're thinking of "right to stuff the ballot box".


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

Theowl32 said:


> So.....naturally the American liberal will be on Maduro's side.
> 
> We know this right?


In that case he, like Assad.....ain't goin nowhere. Too bad....that country really needs to be rebuilt but with allies like that he's in for the long haul.


Jo


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## Oddball (Jan 26, 2019)

justoffal said:


> In that case he, like Assad.....ain't goin nowhere. Too bad....that country really needs to be rebuilt but with allies like that he's in for the long haul.
> 
> 
> Jo


Except that Assad does need to stay right where he is.


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## Tehon (Jan 26, 2019)

Oddball said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> > It's called a right to self determination. It is a liberal ideal.
> ...


You're thinking of Democrats.


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## Polishprince (Jan 26, 2019)

Maduro is an Ultraliberal, who along with his buddy Chavez, used to be the toast of the American Far Left.   I remember the joy they had when Chavez called Dubya the devil in NY.  They were joyous when the 2002 coup failed.

But these characters did was take one of the wealthiest nations on earth, with huge petroleum reserves, and transformed it into and economic basket case.   That's what the libs want to do here.


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

Stratford57 said:


> Well, I'm not a liberal but  my home country of Ukraine is a bright example what happens when Washington interferes.
> 
> Lavrov:
> This can only deepen the social divide in Venezuela, aggravate street protests, dramatically destabilise the Venezuelan political community and further escalate the conflict. The deliberate and obviously well orchestrated creation of dual power and an alternative decision-making centre in Venezuela is a *direct path towards chaos and erosion* of Venezuelan statehood.
> ...



NATO has been trying to use Ukraine for the past 20 years to create a bore hole in the Russian border. Most of this perverse energy is driven by greedy European bankers anxious to interfere with Russia's vast hydrocarbon energy potential. When they went as far as indicating that they might try to sever Putin's access to his Black Sea fleet in Crimea he reacted predictably. You are correct neither NATO nor the United States administration at that time gave two flying shits about the people caught in the middle.

Jo


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

Polishprince said:


> Maduro is an Ultraliberal, who along with his buddy Chavez, used to be the toast of the American Far Left.   I remember the joy they had when Chavez called Dubya the devil in NY.  They were joyous when the 2002 coup failed.
> 
> But these characters did was take one of the wealthiest nations on earth, with huge petroleum reserves, and transformed it into and economic basket case.   That's what the libs want to do here.



You cannot force wealth out into a populous
by equality osmosis.  Wealth by it's very definition tends to aggregate and so it becomes an easy target for the confused to point to as if to say....look! There's our share over there that greedy guy's pile! When the goverment goes in there to take it out they discover that you can't simply dissect it and pass it out to everyone; And so you end up eating zoo animals because you have hobbled the wealth that produced the beef. This lesson in Economics has played out at least a dozen times since Stalin tried it in the 30's and 40's. Looks like they have to learn it again.

Jo


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## Moonglow (Jan 26, 2019)

Theowl32 said:


> So.....naturally the American liberal will be on Maduro's side.
> 
> We know this right?


Is that a mouse in yer pocket cause I only see one poster and no liberals don't die for Maduro, but Trump is making sure the US interferes and puts your tax dollars to work to oppose him..Enjoy sucker..


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## Moonglow (Jan 26, 2019)

justoffal said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Maduro is an Ultraliberal, who along with his buddy Chavez, used to be the toast of the American Far Left.   I remember the joy they had when Chavez called Dubya the devil in NY.  They were joyous when the 2002 coup failed.
> ...


The wealth was oil and in one year alone(2014) lost 45% of its market value...


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

Moonglow said:


> Theowl32 said:
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> 
> > So.....naturally the American liberal will be on Maduro's side.
> ...



But he's right.....

Jo


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

Moonglow said:


> justoffal said:
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> > Polishprince said:
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Of course it was .... And it was bound to happen because as the untold riches flowed in from the petroleum industry it was not invested into the hands of the people who know how to make it diversify. Venezuela enjoyed a good 10-year run of huge cash flow that was squandered on a Marxist Ideal... What happened to them was utterly predictable and inevitable. Once again the fruits of Marxism produce a small class of super wealthy side by side with a burgeoning populous of unskilled and financially unwise.


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## Moonglow (Jan 26, 2019)

justoffal said:


> Moonglow said:
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Yeah it's the same in the USA..


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## Tehon (Jan 26, 2019)

justoffal said:


> Moonglow said:
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> > justoffal said:
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What Marxist ideal would that be?


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

I


Moonglow said:


> justoffal said:
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> > Moonglow said:
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Not the same.  There are about 11 million millionaires in the US. Close to 20 million more over 300k. They form a foundation of 
functioning wealth found no where else on Earth. China is trying to copy it right now but they are control freaks and don't understand that you cannot force the system or you destroy it. Every society has its poor and we are no exception. The poor here in the United States are more well fed and housed than the poor people are in other places. That is made possible only by the system of wealth that we currently function under. It's not perfect but there there's not a single alternative system out there that even comes close.

Jo


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

Tehon said:


> justoffal said:
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> > Moonglow said:
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The only one that actually matters:

*From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs...*
*KM*

*Jo*


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## Moonglow (Jan 26, 2019)

justoffal said:


> Tehon said:
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I always thought it was all for the strongest, smartest and greediest..


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## Tehon (Jan 26, 2019)

justoffal said:


> Tehon said:
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The irony is that when Marx wrote those words he was railing against the German Workers Party platform and their emphasis on the fair distribution of wealth.


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## Manonthestreet (Jan 26, 2019)

georgephillip said:


> *Edgardo Lander is a Venezuelan sociologist who supported the reforms Chavez brought twenty years ago, yet he also recognizes how many of Maduro's mistakes have made the situation intolerable for many Venezuelans today:
> 
> The limits of changes  Venezuela: terminal crisis of the rentier petro-state? - International Viewpoint - online socialist magazine
> 
> ...





georgephillip said:


> *Edgardo Lander is a Venezuelan sociologist who supported the reforms Chavez brought twenty years ago, yet he also recognizes how many of Maduro's mistakes have made the situation intolerable for many Venezuelans today:
> 
> The limits of changes  Venezuela: terminal crisis of the rentier petro-state? - International Viewpoint - online socialist magazine
> 
> ...


To use a 56 yr old article that bears no resemblance to current situation......ridiculous....and btw of course inequality has been reduced to equal poverty,.


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## Circe (Jan 26, 2019)

georgephillip said:


> *Edgardo Lander is a Venezuelan sociologist who supported the reforms Chavez brought twenty years ago, yet he also recognizes how many of Maduro's mistakes have made the situation intolerable for many Venezuelans today:
> 
> The limits of changes  Venezuela: terminal crisis of the rentier petro-state? - International Viewpoint - online socialist magazine
> 
> "The limits of changes – Venezuela: terminal crisis of the rentier petro-state?*



Anyone who says the word "rentier" is a Marxist. So much for this character. He's the problem, not the solution.


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## justoffal (Jan 26, 2019)

Manonthestreet said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *Edgardo Lander is a Venezuelan sociologist who supported the reforms Chavez brought twenty years ago, yet he also recognizes how many of Maduro's mistakes have made the situation intolerable for many Venezuelans today:
> ...



Wealth is a consumable...what these guys will never get ( and I'm not sure how to fix that)  has more to do with the goose than it does with the golden egg. If you increase the exposure to consumption you decrease the ability to regenerate unless you simultaneously do both....not so easily done as good old Uncle Karl envisioned. It requires skillfull foresight, accurate planning and the strength of character to make unpopular decisions. Popularity has never been based on financial acumen but almost always on insatiable impulse.

Jo


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## georgephillip (Jan 27, 2019)

Circe said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *Edgardo Lander is a Venezuelan sociologist who supported the reforms Chavez brought twenty years ago, yet he also recognizes how many of Maduro's mistakes have made the situation intolerable for many Venezuelans today:
> ...


rentier - Google Search

"ren·tier
*Dictionary result for rentier*
/ˌränˈtyā/
_noun_

a person living on income from property or investments."





What Donald Trump Doesn’t Understand About ‘the Deal’

Those living on income from property or investments are economic parasites.


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## Baron (Jan 27, 2019)

Stratford57 said:


> Well, I'm not a liberal but  my home country of Ukraine is a bright example what happens when Washington interferes.
> 
> Lavrov:
> This can only deepen the social divide in Venezuela, aggravate street protests, dramatically destabilise the Venezuelan political community and further escalate the conflict. The deliberate and obviously well orchestrated creation of dual power and an alternative decision-making centre in Venezuela is a *direct path towards chaos and erosion* of Venezuelan statehood.
> ...


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## georgephillip (Jan 27, 2019)

America’s Deadliest Export: Democracy – William Blum




"For over 65 years, the United States war machine has been on auto pilot. Since World War II, the world has believed that US foreign policy means well, and that America’s motives in spreading democracy are honorable, even noble. 

"In this startling and provocative book from William Blum, one of the United States’ leading non-mainstream chroniclers of American foreign policy and author of the popular online newsletter, 

"The Anti-Empire Report, demonstrates that nothing could be further from the truth. 

"Moreover, unless this fallacy is unlearned, and until people understand fully the worldwide suffering American policy has caused, we will never be able to stop the monster."

*A recent NBC/WSJ poll (taken before Trump's Shutdown ended) revealed nearly 70% of Americans believe their country is heading in the wrong direction.*

*'Wrong track': Public sours on nation’s direction in new NBC News/WSJ poll*

*Imagine what would change if an equal number came to believe the US war machine is a big part of the reason why America is on the wrong side of history?*


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