# Frank Zappa was the greatest guitar player



## CrusaderFrank (Aug 18, 2009)

Look, this isn't a debate thread, because the Title is like saying, "the sky is blue and the sun is yellow".

Most of you aren't familiar with any of his work and even more of you have never heard a single guitar solo by him, so don't even waste the electrons with Eric Clapton this or Jimmy Hendrix that because they're both kindergartners in comparison.  In fact, you should know that I don't take anyone's opinion seriously on guitar player unless they can tell me they own "Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar" aka SUNPYG

If you had the time and desire to listen and learn I recommend you take the following musical journey.

First, here's "Inca Road's" an absolute classic in its own right

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg6X2hsl52E]YouTube - Frank Zappa: Inca Roads[/ame]

Particularly amazing is not only Zappa's absurdly beautiful use of the Wah pedal (notice he's not just stomping on it to the beat getting that Waka Jawaka sound), but the guy invented tapping!  (Did you like the "Septuplets from hell" on the xylophone?)

Yes, starting at 4:24 he's using the pick on the fretboard to invent a technique Eddie Van Halen is unashamed to claim full credit for irrespective of the fact that the biggest gig Eddie had played at that time was the Shornstein's bar mitvah.

For the next stop on our musical interlude we go to the phenomenal aforementioned 3 CD set "Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzE2FCn5nYY]YouTube - Frank Zappa Return Of The Son Of Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar[/ame]

Here in the song "Return Of The Son Of Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar" is how he approached the solo to, yes Inca Roads, on a different night. See what happens when you have Arthur Barrow on bass and the amazing Vinny Colaiuta on drums?

But wait! There's More! 

I can't locate them on the internet, but "Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar", "Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar Some More" and "Gee, I like your Pants" all from SUNPYG are all the Inca Roads solos on different night with the same amazing band!

How can you possibly compare that to anything you've heard on the radio? The solo to the main SUNPYG is over 5 minutes long and there are more original idea in any 4 bar section than most famous guitar players have had over their entire careers.

Here's the point: The solos above were instant improvisations based upon whatever the highly trained musicians around Zappa were playing that evening! Once you hear it, the chemistry, the interplay, between Zappa and his musicians especially between Frank and Vinny Colaiuta was as if there was one brain controlling the melody!

For example, you can have a guitar player learn a solo note for note (Steve Vai transcribed many of them) but unless the backing musicians, especially the bass and drums are playing the EXACT SAME lines as well, the solo won't work!  I know, I've heard it myself.

*And that's the Genius of it!  Each of the solos is a titanic spontaneous, unrehearsed, instant melodic composition taking into account what the musicians around him were doing at that very instant!*

For the next post, I'll go into "Keep it Greasy" and why the Original Solo to "Outside Now" on the "Guitar" CD is the most beautiful solo ever (not SUNPYG, oh no, this is another 2 CD release of guitar solos (yes, thats 5 whole CD of guitar solos)).


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## Gunny (Aug 18, 2009)

Put the bong down and back away slowly .....


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 18, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Put the bong down and back away slowly .....



The main reason why he never gets radio play was his vehement anti-drug stance.


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## Gunny (Aug 18, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gunny said:
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And his retarded songs.


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## elvis (Aug 18, 2009)

Gunny said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
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and his weird names for children. Dwiezel and Moon Unit?


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 18, 2009)

Gunny said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
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There's a long list of deadly serious musicians who played with him and were all better for it


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## Gunny (Aug 18, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


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There is a long list of marines who went to the range with me and are better for it.  So?


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## edthecynic (Aug 19, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Look, this isn't a debate thread, because the Title is like saying, "the sky is blue and the sun is yellow".
> 
> Most of you aren't familiar with any of his work and even more of you have never heard a single guitar solo by him, so don't even waste the electrons with Eric Clapton this or Jimmy Hendrix that because they're both kindergartners in comparison.  In fact, you should know that I don't take anyone's opinion seriously on guitar player unless they can tell me they own "Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar" aka SUNPYG
> 
> ...



While I've always enjoyed Zappa from Freak Out through his Jazz Rock Fusion years and playing with such great Fusion artists like Jean Luc Ponty on electric violin and George Duke on keyboards there are many other Fusion guitarists at least as good if not much better.
Such as Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin and Larry Coryell to name just a few.

BTW, tapping was invented to try to sound as fast as the above guitarists could pick. Absolutely no tapping on any of the below tracks.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atz9vzTAUh0&feature=related]YouTube - Al Di Meola - Race With The Devil on a Spanish Hwy[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQG7XpCiSVA&feature=related]YouTube - Mahavishnu Orchestra - Meeting Of The Spirits[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb025qJWuI4&feature=related]YouTube - The Eleventh House - Level One[/ame]


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 19, 2009)

The point was not about playing fast per se, Zappa himself said that there are lots of other guys who play faster, never hit a wrong note and have a lovely tone, but no one takes the chances with a spontaneous melodic improvisation, that is, a solo, that he does.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCgnIEAg2I]YouTube - Frank Zappa - Packard Goose 2/2[/ame]

Oh, starting at 3:10 in the split up "Packard Goose" Warren Cuccarullo does his Al Dimeola impression. "Sounds like an Elegant Gypsy"


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 19, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


> Gunny said:
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Those are good names,


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## edthecynic (Aug 19, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> The point was not about playing fast per se, Zappa himself said that there are lots of other guys who play faster, never hit a wrong note and have a lovely tone,* but no one takes the chances with a spontaneous melodic improvisation, that is, a solo, that he does.*
> 
> YouTube - Frank Zappa - Packard Goose 2/2
> 
> Oh, starting at 3:10 in the split up "Packard Goose" Warren Cuccarullo does his Al Dimeola impression. "Sounds like an Elegant Gypsy"



There is nothing unique about taking chances with a solo in Jazz. That's what makes Jazz, Jazz.

Here's Al Holdsworth with The Tony Williams Lifetime.
And Al Di Meola with his Elegant Gypsy live.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbMDjNaizTc&feature=related]YouTube - Fred[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnJgdnxFf6g]YouTube - Red alert-tony williams[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJknLGMzPac]YouTube - adm ELEGANT GYPSY SUITE.FLV[/ame]


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## Oddball (Aug 19, 2009)

> Frank Zappa was the greatest guitar player


Not even a question about it.


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## Oddball (Aug 19, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gunny said:
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> > Put the bong down and back away slowly .....
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The main reason he never gets radio play is his rejection of ConglomomegaCorp labels, and refusing to be plooked by their stupid detergent-snorting execs, and you know it.


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## edthecynic (Aug 19, 2009)

Dude said:


> > Frank Zappa was the greatest guitar player
> 
> 
> Not even a question about it.



Not that Zappa is a slouch by any stretch of the imagination, but in the Instrumental Underground of Jazz-Rock Fusion there are a wealth of guitarists with better chops and a better sense of melody.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a82X-ibfedg]YouTube - Neal Schon - Espanique[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SjFVMbD20o&feature=related]YouTube - Neal Schon (Cool Breeze)[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd-QucDMz9I&feature=related]YouTube - Neal Schon - Bandalero[/ame]


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## Oddball (Aug 19, 2009)

That perceived lack of a "sense of melody" is in fact FZ's genius.

He made up key and time signatures that Dave Brubeck is still trying to figure out.


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## edthecynic (Aug 19, 2009)

Dude said:


> That perceived lack of a "sense of melody" is in fact FZ's genius.
> 
> He made up key and time signatures that Dave Brubeck is still trying to figure out.



First of all, I never said Zappa "lacked" a sense of melody, I specifically said he was no slouch, I said others have a BETTER sense of melody. Boy, you CON$ can't stop yourself from changing what people say even with music. 
Peaches En Regalia is one of my favorite Zappa compositions with a great melody.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQiSlG_ziVA&feature=fvw"]YouTube - Zappa Plays Zappa - "Peaches En Regalia (Live)"[/ame]
And odd time signatures are quite common in Jazz beyond Dave Brubeck.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GywKPvIaCj8"]YouTube - Santana - Flame Sky[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_bkS5VVaA&feature=fvw"]YouTube - Birds of Fire - Mahavishnu Orchestra[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G6ijyuknHg&feature=related"]YouTube - La Madre Rija - Celestial Terrestrial Commuters[/ame]


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## Oddball (Aug 20, 2009)

Go muddy up a guillible warming thread, would ya??


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## edthecynic (Aug 20, 2009)

Dude said:


> Go muddy up a guillible warming thread, would ya??



CON$ can't resist personal attacks no matter what the topic.

I'd rather enjoy the guitar of Bill Connors and RTF.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcWkhWbRvC0"]YouTube - Captain Senor Mouse[/ame]


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## edthecynic (Aug 20, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmUcJdq8pm0]YouTube - Steve Oliver - High Noon[/ame]


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 20, 2009)

I don't know if Frank was the best guitar player ever but I recall reading somewhere that Steve Vai said that Franks' music was the hardest to play, a real demanding workout.

Meanwhile here's my favorite Zappa song:
[youtube]441-Vnv7cRY[/youtube]


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## manifold (Aug 20, 2009)

Actually, the thread title is more like saying "Greg Kite is the greatest NBA center of all time!"


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## Shogun (Aug 20, 2009)

I respect Zappa as a guitar player but I think calling him the greatest is going a bit far.  His music slightly reminds me of the band geek that trades soul for technicality.  A fraction of the same direction Dream Theatre took (all good at their instruments but lets face it, they suck satans cock).  I appriciate the humor found in his songwriting.  I mean, who else would write a song called titties and beer?  Still, THE GREATEST is not he.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8y0JLPQl94]YouTube - Frank Zappa - Bobby Brown[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ6vl49r67I]YouTube - Frank Zappa - Apostrophe[/ame]

didn't find Jewish Princess


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 20, 2009)

Dude said:


> That perceived lack of a "sense of melody" is in fact FZ's genius.
> 
> He made up key and time signatures that Dave Brubeck is still trying to figure out.



1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4-5
1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4-5

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFvzfNtXnVU]YouTube - Watermelon in Easter hay[/ame]

The studio version on "Joe's Garage" has made grown men cry

"His last imaginary guitar solo..."


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## Oddball (Aug 20, 2009)

edthecynic said:


> Dude said:
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> > Go muddy up a guillible warming thread, would ya??
> ...


I'm not a conservative, and if I attack you personally you're gonna know it.

Now go grow a skin AND muddy up a gullible warming thread, Gomer.


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## edthecynic (Aug 20, 2009)

Mad Scientist said:


> I don't know if Frank was the best guitar player ever but I recall reading somewhere that *Steve Vai said that Franks' music was the hardest to play,* a real demanding workout.
> 
> Meanwhile here's my favorite Zappa song:
> [youtube]441-Vnv7cRY[/youtube]



That reminds me of Wynton Marsalis claiming his type of Jazz was supreior to the Smooth Jazz that was more popular because his was much harder to play.

To me music has that indescribable timeless magic when the Rhythm and the Melody work together in Harmony. 

Good music has nothing to do with how complicated it is, some of the simplest music can be the most moving.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za7wHlQKRlM"]YouTube - Daybreak | Special EFX | GRP The Sounds Of '92[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUXuG8Q_I-I"]YouTube - Acoustic Alchemy - Playing For Time (live)[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtHp8apkQA&feature=related"]YouTube - Acoustic Alchemy - The Beautiful Game[/ame]


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## edthecynic (Aug 20, 2009)

Dude said:


> edthecynic said:
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You are Right to be ashamed to call yourself a CON$ervative.

Now grow up AND enjoy some music.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bkosY_tM4k"]YouTube - Peter White - Play Your Guitar For Me[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WCrZPOek6g"]YouTube - The Rippingtons-Tourist In Paradise(1989)[/ame]


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## The T (Aug 22, 2009)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVrzpstCyi0"]YouTube - Frank Zappa - Yo Mama, Live Guitar Solo 1978[/ame]

Zappa's "Yo Mamma"

Maybe you should stay with yo' mama 
She could do your laundry 'n' cook for you 
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama 
You're really kinda stupid 'n' ugly too 

(verse repeats) 

You ain't really made for bein' out in the street 
Ain't much hope for a fool like you 
'Cause if you play the game, you will get beat 

Maybe you should stay with yo' mama 
She could do your laundry 'n' cook for you 
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama 
You're really kinda stupid 'n' ugly too 
And 
You should never smoke in pajamas 
You might start a fire 'n' burn yer face 
Maybe you'll return to Managua 
You could go unnoticed in such a place

_________________

Always Loved this tune...


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## roomy (Aug 22, 2009)

Opinions EH? I think Ritchie Blackmore is the greatest lead guitarist ever

Santana is pretty great as well, I also like Steve Howe and Eric Clapton.

Can we mention bluesmen?

Shut the fuck up daft lad.


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## The T (Aug 22, 2009)

Zappa was an unconventional GENIUS...


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 22, 2009)

The studio version of "Packard Goose" has the nastiest, most visceral "I'm going to reach through the speaker and chew yer guts out" solo I've ever heard.

Then it's Chaplainesque how its immediately followed by the sweetest, most sonorous unknown solo "Watermelon in Easter Hay"


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 22, 2009)

roomy said:


> Opinions EH? I think Ritchie Blackmore is the greatest lead guitarist ever
> 
> Santana is pretty great as well, I also like Steve Howe and Eric Clapton.
> 
> ...



Dude, I survived Rainbow at the Beacon Theater in 1975.


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## roomy (Aug 22, 2009)

Listen to some Deep Purple or Blackmores Rainbow you ignorant fucking retro tossers.


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## edthecynic (Aug 22, 2009)

Chunga's Revenge has always been a favorite of mine,
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuFicmiyOg0]YouTube - Chunga's Revenge solo, 1980[/ame]


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## The T (Aug 22, 2009)

roomy said:


> Listen to some Deep Purple or Blackmores Rainbow you ignorant fucking retro tossers.


 

Zappa Has a message of Liberty for All...

It's a Song Called "Fuck Yourself"..Heard it? he speaks to every social Ill...quite FRANKly...I''l direct you to it if it'll help.


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## Valerie (Aug 22, 2009)

For some reason this Zappa tune comes to mind tonight.  






[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQcE2dq3YD0&feature=PlayList&p=F2243B98335129B5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=9]YouTube - Frank Zappa - Jesus Thinks You're a Jerk[/ame]


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## Oddball (Aug 22, 2009)

One of Zappa's great moments was playing "I'm the Slime" on SNL.....Complete with slime oozing out the studio monitors.

Nothing like sticking both thumbs in the eyes of The Man!


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## Mr. H. (Aug 22, 2009)

Undoubtedly a great songwriter, composer, and band leader... but greatest guitar player?

Steve Howe is definitely in the "greatest" category. 

P.S. thanks for all these Zappa vids- love it!


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## edthecynic (Aug 22, 2009)

Mr. H. said:


> Undoubtedly a great songwriter, composer, and band leader... but greatest guitar player?
> 
> Steve Howe is definitely in the "greatest" category.
> 
> P.S. thanks for all these Zappa vids- love it!



The problem with picking ONE "greatest" guitar player is there are so many great players and so many different styles of guitar playing.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF41OeaACsY]YouTube - Leo Kottke 6 And 12 String Guitar Vaseline Machine Gun[/ame]


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## xsited1 (Aug 23, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Frank Zappa was the greatest guitar player



I have spent thousands of hours listening to Zappa.  He was amazing.  His son isn't too bad himself.  There are literally hundreds of guitarists I admire.  This is one of my personal favorites:

ShawnLane.COM » The official Shawn Lane site.

And, of course, this guy:

Jason Becker


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## Mr. H. (Aug 23, 2009)

edthecynic said:


> Mr. H. said:
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Roger that.

Love Leo K. Saw him in early '80s. STILL GOT THE TICKET STUB!


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## edthecynic (Aug 23, 2009)

Here's another great guitar solo, after the flute solo.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUhrzGnGoFA&feature=PlayList&p=4B45BB30E1B744E5&index=24"]YouTube - focus - (part 2) answers? questions! questions? answers![/ame]
This band is famous for this screamer.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY"]YouTube - Focus - Hocus Pocus[/ame]


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 23, 2009)

edthecynic said:


> Chunga's Revenge has always been a favorite of mine,
> YouTube - Chunga's Revenge solo, 1980



What a great find!

That's not Vinnie Colaiuta on drums, who is it?


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 27, 2009)

Dweezils first attempt at The Septuplets from Hell

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grovq0y8FtQ&feature=PlayList&p=9B0F78EA47E6CB9A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=41]YouTube - Dweezil Zappa - ThÃ¨me de "Inca Roads"[/ame]


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## jfullen (Sep 9, 2009)

Have been listening to Zappa since I was 16 and i am 49. You are absolutely right.


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## Darkwind (Sep 9, 2009)

Well, when My son was taking his first guitar lessons of the acoustic kind, he learned Zappa...

And then moved on to more advanced music and riffs...


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## edthecynic (Sep 10, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> edthecynic said:
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> ...



David Logeman


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## edthecynic (Sep 10, 2009)

YouTube - Frank Zappa - Montana - 1973 Stockholm


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 10, 2009)

edthecynic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
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Never heard of him. The collaboration between Vinnie and Frank is just otherworldly and I still can't find a way to link to "Heavy Duty Judy" From Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 10, 2009)

edthecynic said:


> YouTube - Frank Zappa - Montana - 1973 Stockholm



I used to wear those pants! OMG!

Awesome find!

I think that's the same line up from "The Helsinki Concert" 

WOW!


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## JW Frogen (Sep 10, 2009)

Let's be frank here, the world is a less without Frank Zappa.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 10, 2009)

JW Frogen said:


> Let's be frank here, the world is a less without Frank Zappa.



You have to wonder if God isn't really selfish since he took John Lennon and Frank Zappa and left us stuck with Bruce Springstein and Mick Jagger


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## edthecynic (Sep 10, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> edthecynic said:
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZO7qEqFtG4&fmt=18]YouTube - Frank Zappa - Heavy Duty Judy, Live Saratoga 1984[/ame]


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## BigSteve (Sep 10, 2009)

Zappa was great, no doubt.

The best?

Maybe, maybe not.

I've seen Al Di Meola and Peppino D' Agostino do things with a guitar that would turn your hair white...


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 10, 2009)

edthecynic said:


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Yeah. There's a version with Chad Wackerman on "The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life" who I think was also the drummer in 1984 and that's the one I heard first.

When I heard the version on "Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar" fuck!!...it was like a crash landing on the planet Mercury and being exposed to the solar wind...it is the greatest guitar work ever...no offense to any of Frank's other drummers but once you grok the Vinnie and Frank Show, the other solos sound like child's play.  

I don't have musical ears so I had to listen about 12,000 times to "Get it" because the musical interplay is spontaneous but all at warp speed.


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