# Why "the fence" won't work



## Luddly Neddite

Because they never have.

During the Vietnam War This Is How 8230 

 

Inside Mexico s Drug Tunnels - Photo Essays - TIME


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## S.J.

Take away the freebies, legalize marijuana, and the problem goes away.


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## Manonthestreet

Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this


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## pismoe

once again you speak silliness , you speak silliness Luddley .   We've been to the moon , plumbed ocean depths and we can't secure a border .   I didn't look at yer propaganda link and I'm just responding to your title and opening statement and saying that it is silly !!


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## Camp

Manonthestreet said:


> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this


Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?


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## S.J.

Camp said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> *Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?*
Click to expand...

My back yard.


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## pismoe

separation wall in ISRAEL works pretty well !!   Walls work fine , might not exclude 100% but 95 plus % success is good enough and then you use other steps to exclude interlopers  .   I hear that the Saudis are building border walls as I type .


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## PredFan

Luddley's Left Wing Nutter Rule # 5446:

The fence isn't 100% effective so it's best to do nothing at all.


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## Skull Pilot

Luddly Neddite said:


> Because they never have.
> 
> During the Vietnam War This Is How 8230
> 
> 
> 
> Inside Mexico s Drug Tunnels - Photo Essays - TIME


Tunnels? No problem

Use the no man's land between fences as a bombing practice range.


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## HereWeGoAgain

Skull Pilot said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because they never have.
> 
> During the Vietnam War This Is How 8230
> 
> 
> 
> Inside Mexico s Drug Tunnels - Photo Essays - TIME
> 
> 
> 
> Tunnels? No problem
> 
> Use the no man's land between fences as a bombing practice range.
Click to expand...


  You can do wonders with ground penetrating radar and C-4 these days.


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## Mad Scientist

Borders are about the ONLY Constitutionally mandated job of Government and they can't even do *that* right.

Yet we expect them to *anything* else right?


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## Camp

Securing our borders would be easy if the people coming here knew they couldn't get jobs. They get jobs because people hire them knowing they are illegal and work for cheap. Stop that practice and they will stop coming. We won't stop the practice because we are not willing to jail the owners of the business owners who profit from the illegals coming here. It really is that simple.


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## pismoe

good points except that it isn't WE that won't stop hiring , it is THEY , meaning the  ' chamber of commerce ' and business owners that collude with gov advocates of illegal and legal immigration .  .


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## Luddly Neddite

Interesting that one of my links is gone. 

WTH?


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## RKMBrown

The way to stop border crossings is with man power.  Watch towers, tunnel scanning devices, air units, thermal imaging, boots on the ground.  But we're too busy defending borders of other countries around the world to give a shit about ours.


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## RKMBrown

What's even worse, is if we catch them we can't turn them away, we have to "process" them, feed them, entertain them, drive them to cities around the country, and let them go.  Our POTUS is insane.


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## NLT

two mile wide mine field along the mexican border would do wonders


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## RKMBrown

NLT said:


> two mile wide mine field along the mexican border would do wonders


Not so good for the wildlife, cattle, ranchers, and Towns and Cities along our side of the Rio Grande though.  And even if you did close all those towns down and ranchers, and kill all the animals... what about boats and planes?


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## Zoom-boing

Camp said:


> Securing our borders would be easy if the people coming here knew they couldn't get jobs. They get jobs because people hire them knowing they are illegal and work for cheap. Stop that practice and they will stop coming. We won't stop the practice because we are not willing to jail the owners of the business owners who profit from the illegals coming here. It really is that simple.





RKMBrown said:


> The way to stop border crossings is with man power.  Watch towers, tunnel scanning devices, air units, thermal imaging, boots on the ground.  But we're too busy defending borders of other countries around the world to give a shit about ours.




Do both.  Jail and fine the hell out of those who employ illegals AND put up a damned fence, manned 24/7/365.


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## NLT

RKMBrown said:


> NLT said:
> 
> 
> 
> two mile wide mine field along the mexican border would do wonders
> 
> 
> 
> Not so good for the wildlife, cattle, ranchers, and Towns and Cities along our side of the Rio Grande though.  And even if you did close all those towns down and ranchers, and kill all the animals... *what about boats and planes?*
Click to expand...

Drones


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## Zoom-boing

Camp said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?
Click to expand...


You're right.  They should take down that damn fence they have around the White House.  Doesn't do any good, nobody is watching anyway, all kinds of rift-raft running through there.  The White House is the people's house, take down that fence!


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## RKMBrown

Zoom-boing said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Securing our borders would be easy if the people coming here knew they couldn't get jobs. They get jobs because people hire them knowing they are illegal and work for cheap. Stop that practice and they will stop coming. We won't stop the practice because we are not willing to jail the owners of the business owners who profit from the illegals coming here. It really is that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way to stop border crossings is with man power.  Watch towers, tunnel scanning devices, air units, thermal imaging, boots on the ground.  But we're too busy defending borders of other countries around the world to give a shit about ours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do both.  Jail and fine the hell out of those who employ illegals AND put up a damned fence, manned 24/7/365.
Click to expand...

Who's gonna pay for it, we're broke.


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## RKMBrown

NLT said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NLT said:
> 
> 
> 
> two mile wide mine field along the mexican border would do wonders
> 
> 
> 
> Not so good for the wildlife, cattle, ranchers, and Towns and Cities along our side of the Rio Grande though.  And even if you did close all those towns down and ranchers, and kill all the animals... *what about boats and planes?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Drones
Click to expand...

Who's gonna pay for them, who's gonna fly them, and what good is a drone when you don't have authority to shoot down planes and sink boats?


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## Camp

Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.


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## pismoe

ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .


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## RKMBrown

pismoe said:


> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .


Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.


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## Camp

RKMBrown said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
Click to expand...

It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.


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## RKMBrown

Camp said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
Click to expand...

I remember hearing about that happening once or twice.  Rolls Eyes...


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## Camp

RKMBrown said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I remember hearing about that happening once or twice.  Rolls Eyes...
Click to expand...

It works. The only problem with the concept is that special interest prevent it from operating on a large scale.


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## Vandalshandle

The Great Wall of China is over 13,000 miles long, and took hundreds of years to build. It was built to keep our the Mongols. The Mongols bribed their way through it, and conquered and ruled China for hundreds of years.

Case closed.

Great Wall of China - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Windship

Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
The White House has a fence around it.
 Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.


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## Windship

Vandalshandle said:


> The Great Wall of China is over 13,000 miles long, and took hundreds of years to build. It was built to keep our the Mongols. The Mongols bribed their way through it, and conquered and ruled China for hundreds of years.
> 
> Case closed.
> 
> Great Wall of China - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


 
But the ppl that live in areas that have a wall/fence say that it works very well.


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## pismoe

libs just don't want it Windship , liberal guilt or something !!


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## Windship

Luddly Neddite said:


> Interesting that one of my links is gone.
> 
> WTH?


 
Luddly, no one cares what you have to say. You have already exibited that you are unreasonable and care more
for the illegals than the security of our country, Americans working, wages, benifits, perpetchuating the middle class , the country's security, disease, the rule of law, me, my children or my grandchildren you, your children and your grandchildren or anything else anyone can think of so.....


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## Manonthestreet

Remember when  libs were whining that the portion of the fence we did build was killing illegals cause it forced them into the desert......even went so far as to establish water stations for the invaders.........by their own actions they admit its effectiveness


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## Windship

Manonthestreet said:


> Remember when  libs were whining that the portion of the fence we did build was killing illegals cause it forced them into the desert......even went so far as to establish water stations for the invaders.........by their own actions they admit its effectiveness


 
Yes. And...isnt mexico a friggin dessert?


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## MaryL

Mexico uber alles. That is OK, Hispanics are being hateful invaders so it's all right, their brand of hate and arrogance is  just a cultural thingy dingy. But when non Hispanics react to that  same thingy, that is bad. it isn't hypocritical, its....MULTICULTURAL!  Yeah, I like getting lectures about hypocrisy from Hispanics. It makes life a richer experience.


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## RKMBrown

Windship said:


> Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
> The White House has a fence around it.
> Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.


ROFL... you really have to wonder how some people can be so clueless.


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## Windship

RKMBrown said:


> Windship said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
> The White House has a fence around it.
> Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL... you really have to wonder how some people can be so clueless.
Click to expand...

 
Clueless? Oh I dont think so. Now, why dont you just tell why you think Im cluless instead of flaming me without any kind of rebuttal.


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## RKMBrown

Windship said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Windship said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
> The White House has a fence around it.
> Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL... you really have to wonder how some people can be so clueless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Clueless? Oh I dont think so. Now, why dont you just tell why you think Im cluless instead of flaming me without any kind of rebuttal.
Click to expand...

You compared fencing in a small distinct area to the border of the united states of america.   You compared a well defended group of buildings for the white house that we spend billions a year to defend to thousands of miles of rough terrain in the middle of nowhere that includes the Rio Grande River.  You made the rough equivalent of comparing a model of the globe in a box to putting a box around the earth.


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## Windship

Child.
If you, at all, understood whats really going on then you would know that a wall WILL work. That is exactly why it will never be built. Cost? Who cares. Do you know that we have given mexico over 50 billion dollars in the last few years? 50 Busd = wall. ! squad of NG, army or marines every 1/8 mile (these troops are already getting paid), With a 20 foot wall and barbed wire on top of it with sensors in the ground to detect tunneling. No drones nessessary. You ppl, you ignorant bleeding heart traitors(and your so stupid that you dont even know your a traitor)will say ANYTHING to try and give credence to your ignorance and prop up your traitorous beliefs.
Lets see your opinion change if you lose a job or dont get a job because of an illegal.


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## pismoe

main thing for me is the next generation or few generations .    History will be rewritten as is already being done , culture and law will be changed as is already being done .    We'll see I guess but that's what I predict if ALL immigration isn't controlled for the benefit of actual Americans .    I'm just glad that my kids are grown .


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## Oldglory1

Windship said:


> Child.
> If you, at all, understood whats really going on then you would know that a wall WILL work. That is exactly why it will never be built. Cost? Who cares. Do you know that we have given mexico over 50 billion dollars in the last few years? 50 Busd = wall. ! squad of NG, army or marines every 1/8 mile (these troops are already getting paid), With a 20 foot wall and barbed wire on top of it with sensors in the ground to detect tunneling. No drones nessessary. You ppl, you ignorant bleeding heart traitors(and your so stupid that you dont even know your a traitor)will say ANYTHING to try and give credence to your ignorance and prop up your traitorous beliefs.
> Lets see your opinion change if you lose a job or dont get a job because of an illegal.



Agreed.  It costs us billions of dollars annually having illegal aliens in our country.  The double layered wall covering only the most porous areas of our southern border would pay for itself in no time.  A good physical barrier would help our Border Patrol to do their jobs more effectively.


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## Windship

Illegal immigration is the most important issue we have today.
It started to be a problem in about 1970 and look at us now 44 years later.
In this time both parties have been in office multiple times and NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE BY EITHER PARTY TO STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION OR EVEN SLOW IT!!!
Get it??


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## Oldglory1

MaryL said:


> Mexico uber alles. That is OK, Hispanics are being hateful invaders so it's all right, their brand of hate and arrogance is  just a cultural thingy dingy. But when non Hispanics react to that  same thingy, that is bad. it isn't hypocritical, its....MULTICULTURAL!  Yeah, I like getting lectures about hypocrisy from Hispanics. It makes life a richer experience.



Multi-cultural?   How is allowing in 1 million legal immigrants from mostly Latino countries annually with millions from that same ethnic group here illegally  being multi-cultural or diversity?   These types of Hispanics will say anything to demonize those of us who merely want "real" diversity in our immigration numbers and our immigration laws enforced.


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## RKMBrown

Windship said:


> Child.
> If you, at all, understood whats really going on then you would know that a wall WILL work. That is exactly why it will never be built. Cost? Who cares. Do you know that we have given mexico over 50 billion dollars in the last few years? 50 Busd = wall. ! squad of NG, army or marines every 1/8 mile (these troops are already getting paid), With a 20 foot wall and barbed wire on top of it with sensors in the ground to detect tunneling. No drones nessessary. You ppl, you ignorant bleeding heart traitors(and your so stupid that you dont even know your a traitor)will say ANYTHING to try and give credence to your ignorance and prop up your traitorous beliefs.
> Lets see your opinion change if you lose a job or dont get a job because of an illegal.


The squads of military units and watch towers make sense.  However the current rules by this traitor in chief is that anyone caught is processed and released inside the USA.  So catching them is nothing more than giving them some free food and a car ride into the interior. 

The fence is dumber then dumb, it's just plain stupid talk.


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## S.J.

The best way to stop illegal immigration is to get the Democrats out of office.  Until we do that, all the logical solutions are useless.


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## westwall

Camp said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?
Click to expand...





They seem to work in most every place that they are manned and properly maintained.


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## Camp

westwall said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to work in most every place that they are manned and properly maintained.
Click to expand...

Name one. The iron curtain didn't even work to keep people in. Multiple rows of barbed wire, walls, watch towers with armed guards with orders to shoot to kill anyone attempting to get out, patrols of armed guards, sensors, etc. Our borders are more secure than many borders all over the world. Our illegal immigration problems aren't as serious as many places in the world. So where is this place that has the problem of illegal border crossing solved with fences and walls?


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## westwall

Camp said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to work in most every place that they are manned and properly maintained.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Name one. The iron curtain didn't even work to keep people in. Multiple rows of barbed wire, walls, watch towers with armed guards with orders to shoot to kill anyone attempting to get out, patrols of armed guards, sensors, etc. Our borders are more secure than many borders all over the world. Our illegal immigration problems aren't as serious as many places in the world. So where is this place that has the problem of illegal border crossing solved with fences and walls?
Click to expand...







The number of people who escaped from behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War is vanishingly small.  The list of the dead however, is tragically long.  Our southern border isn't defended.  They have highways where they throw their garbage and cause terrible environmental damage.


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## Camp

So you can't answer the question, other than to admit that the Iron Curtain, a fence with shoot to kill guards and multiple fences was only partially successful. That and your deflection of the subject by showing photo's of the damage border crosser's create by littering in the desert.


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## Vandalshandle

A wall to keep Mexicans out. Hilarious!

First of all, we have this:

Largest-ever drug tunnel in Nogales found

"U.S. authorities have found 100 drug tunnels in that city (Nogales) since 1990, more than any other location along the 2,000-mile United States-Mexico border.
But the tunnel found this week tops them all. At 481 feet, longer than 11/2 football fields, it is the longest ever discovered in Nogales, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials."

Then, we have this:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323916304578404960101110032

" about 40% of the 11 million undocumented workers in the country aren't low-wage workers who sneaked over the southern border illegally, but rather foreigners who arrived legally and simply never left."

Then, we have the indisputable fact that the biggest, most heavily fortified wall in the world, built by the Chinese, was easily breached by the Mongols, who then ruled China for hundreds of years.

I mean, do you guys stop and think at all, or is life just one knee-jerk reaction after another?

But, I'll tell you what. Go ahead and build your wall. Apply all of you sophisticated systems, like motion sensors, heat seeking drones, etc. (Which are both already being used), because I have a get rich plan on the drawing boards. I'm going to call it, "Vandals discount shovels and ladders". I plan on opeing in Nogalas as soon as the wall is built.


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## S.J.

Vandalshandle said:


> A wall to keep Mexicans out. Hilarious!
> 
> First of all, we have this:
> 
> Largest-ever drug tunnel in Nogales found
> 
> "U.S. authorities have found 100 drug tunnels in that city (Nogales) since 1990, more than any other location along the 2,000-mile United States-Mexico border.
> But the tunnel found this week tops them all. At 481 feet, longer than 11/2 football fields, it is the longest ever discovered in Nogales, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials."
> 
> Then, we have this:
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323916304578404960101110032
> 
> " about 40% of the 11 million undocumented workers in the country aren't low-wage workers who sneaked over the southern border illegally, but rather foreigners who arrived legally and simply never left."
> 
> Then, we have the indisputable fact that the biggest, most heavily fortified wall in the world, built by the Chinese, was easily breached by the Mongols, who then ruled China for hundreds of years.
> 
> I mean, do you guys stop and think at all, or is life just one knee-jerk reaction after another?
> 
> But, I'll tell you what. Go ahead and build your wall. Apply all of you sophisticated systems, like motion sensors, heat seeking drones, etc. (Which are both already being used), because *I have a get rich plan on the drawing boards. I'm going to call it, "Vandals discount shovels and ladders". I plan on opeing in Nogalas as soon as the wall is built.*


Better learn to spell before you start advertising.


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## westwall

Camp said:


> So you can't answer the question, other than to admit that the Iron Curtain, a fence with shoot to kill guards and multiple fences was only partially successful. That and your deflection of the subject by showing photo's of the damage border crosser's create by littering in the desert.







  I did answer the question you're just too opinionated to admit it.  No fence or even Maximum Security prison can ever be 100% secure because PEOPLE administer it.  People are fallible.  However I feel quite safe even though there is a prison just a few miles from my home.  The people who live near San Quentin, or Folsom, or a whole host of other places likewise sleep securely knowing that the odds of a bad guy getting out are pretty slim. 

They do.  Every year someone gets out.....but given the numbers that try it's a very, very small number.  The same holds true for the Iron Curtain.  It wasn't perfect but it sure was effective to the thousands who didn't make it.

Currently the US has a super highway allowing millions to illegally enter into our country.  Putting a proper fence up won't prevent it.  But it would sure bring the numbers way down and make it an easier situation to control.

Now take your extremist idiotic views and go humor yourself.


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## Oldglory1

Vandalshandle said:


> A wall to keep Mexicans out. Hilarious!
> 
> First of all, we have this:
> 
> Largest-ever drug tunnel in Nogales found
> 
> "U.S. authorities have found 100 drug tunnels in that city (Nogales) since 1990, more than any other location along the 2,000-mile United States-Mexico border.
> But the tunnel found this week tops them all. At 481 feet, longer than 11/2 football fields, it is the longest ever discovered in Nogales, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials."
> 
> Then, we have this:
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323916304578404960101110032
> 
> " about 40% of the 11 million undocumented workers in the country aren't low-wage workers who sneaked over the southern border illegally, but rather foreigners who arrived legally and simply never left."
> 
> Then, we have the indisputable fact that the biggest, most heavily fortified wall in the world, built by the Chinese, was easily breached by the Mongols, who then ruled China for hundreds of years.
> 
> I mean, do you guys stop and think at all, or is life just one knee-jerk reaction after another?
> 
> But, I'll tell you what. Go ahead and build your wall. Apply all of you sophisticated systems, like motion sensors, heat seeking drones, etc. (Which are both already being used), because I have a get rich plan on the drawing boards. I'm going to call it, "Vandals discount shovels and ladders". I plan on opeing in Nogalas as soon as the wall is built.



That means that the majority (60%) were border jumpers.   Doesn't matter our government needs to address both Visa Overstayers and illegal aliens that were never authorized to come here in the first place.  How do you think those tunnels were detected?   Tunnels sensors!

It's not just about Mexicans anyway.   There are terrorists and other criminals trying to get into our country also.   A wall is a  good deterrent. I see, so if it's not 100% affective then it's no good at all?  Really?   Funny, of those who think it won't work then why do they cry about it so much?  It's because they know it will deter many illegals from entering and they don't want that.   The truth will set you free but then I haven't known  many bleeding hearts or ethnocentrics that would ever admit the truth.


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## Camp

westwall said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you can't answer the question, other than to admit that the Iron Curtain, a fence with shoot to kill guards and multiple fences was only partially successful. That and your deflection of the subject by showing photo's of the damage border crosser's create by littering in the desert.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did answer the question you're just too opinionated to admit it.  No fence or even Maximum Security prison can ever be 100% secure because PEOPLE administer it.  People are fallible.  However I feel quite safe even though there is a prison just a few miles from my home.  The people who live near San Quentin, or Folsom, or a whole host of other places likewise sleep securely knowing that the odds of a bad guy getting out are pretty slim.
> 
> They do.  Every year someone gets out.....but given the numbers that try it's a very, very small number.  The same holds true for the Iron Curtain.  It wasn't perfect but it sure was effective to the thousands who didn't make it.
> 
> Currently the US has a super highway allowing millions to illegally enter into our country.  Putting a proper fence up won't prevent it.  But it would sure bring the numbers way down and make it an easier situation to control.
> 
> Now take your extremist idiotic views and go humor yourself.
Click to expand...


My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world. That is the definition of extremism. You still insist on comparing a prison complex to a border fence as it made some kind of logical sense. I'm in favor of a system that has been proven to work when and where it has been applied. Hold the people who hire illegals responsible by prosecuting them and making them pay fines that make the practice unprofitable. Put a few in jail here and there and the border crosser's will stop coming here for the only reason they come, jobs. Your corporate masters and power elite don't want that. They want the cheap labor that contributes to Americans having to work for lower than fair wages. They don't want the problem solved so they put the low informed on a silly mission to demand a fence be built. After the fence is built the problem will still exist. That will make your masters happy and give them many more years of cheap labor.


----------



## Oldglory1

Camp said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you can't answer the question, other than to admit that the Iron Curtain, a fence with shoot to kill guards and multiple fences was only partially successful. That and your deflection of the subject by showing photo's of the damage border crosser's create by littering in the desert.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jobs aren't the only reason that illegals are coming here and criminals and terrorists certainly aren't coming here for the jobs.  We need to deny illegal aliens any benefits and change birthright citizenship for their kids.  E-verify mandated will stop the employers from hiring them but again that isn't the only magnet and it's not just job seekers coming here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did answer the question you're just too opinionated to admit it.  No fence or even Maximum Security prison can ever be 100% secure because PEOPLE administer it.  People are fallible.  However I feel quite safe even though there is a prison just a few miles from my home.  The people who live near San Quentin, or Folsom, or a whole host of other places likewise sleep securely knowing that the odds of a bad guy getting out are pretty slim.
> 
> They do.  Every year someone gets out.....but given the numbers that try it's a very, very small number.  The same holds true for the Iron Curtain.  It wasn't perfect but it sure was effective to the thousands who didn't make it.
> 
> Currently the US has a super highway allowing millions to illegally enter into our country.  Putting a proper fence up won't prevent it.  But it would sure bring the numbers way down and make it an easier situation to control.
> 
> Now take your extremist idiotic views and go humor yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world. That is the definition of extremism. You still insist on comparing a prison complex to a border fence as it made some kind of logical sense. I'm in favor of a system that has been proven to work when and where it has been applied. Hold the people who hire illegals responsible by prosecuting them and making them pay fines that make the practice unprofitable. Put a few in jail here and there and the border crosser's will stop coming here for the only reason they come, jobs. Your corporate masters and power elite don't want that. They want the cheap labor that contributes to Americans having to work for lower than fair wages. They don't want the problem solved so they put the low informed on a silly mission to demand a fence be built. After the fence is built the problem will still exist. That will make your masters happy and give them many more years of cheap labor.
Click to expand...


----------



## RKMBrown

westwall said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to work in most every place that they are manned and properly maintained.
Click to expand...

Yeah well that won't work then not while democrats are in charge.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Windship said:


> Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
> The White House has a fence around it.
> Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.



"The construction of the Berlin Wall that year reduced the number of escapees by 75% to around 2,300 per annum for the rest of the decade. The number of escapees fell further to 868 per annum during the 1970s and to only 334 per annum between 1980 and 1988."
Escape attempts and victims of the inner German border - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And that's with people shooting at you. Just a fence? Good luck with that.


----------



## RKMBrown

Delta4Embassy said:


> Windship said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
> The White House has a fence around it.
> Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The construction of the Berlin Wall that year reduced the number of escapees by 75% to around 2,300 per annum for the rest of the decade. The number of escapees fell further to 868 per annum during the 1970s and to only 334 per annum between 1980 and 1988."
> Escape attempts and victims of the inner German border - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> And that's with people shooting at you. Just a fence? Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

Was the berlin wall 3k miles long in the middle of no where?   Do you have a mental incapacity that we need to know about?


----------



## Delta4Embassy

RKMBrown said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Windship said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
> The White House has a fence around it.
> Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The construction of the Berlin Wall that year reduced the number of escapees by 75% to around 2,300 per annum for the rest of the decade. The number of escapees fell further to 868 per annum during the 1970s and to only 334 per annum between 1980 and 1988."
> Escape attempts and victims of the inner German border - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> And that's with people shooting at you. Just a fence? Good luck with that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the berlin wall 3k miles long in the middle of no where?   Do you have a mental incapacity that we need to know about?
Click to expand...


Ya, can see proof of it in the "newer new math" thread.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.


----------



## RKMBrown

Delta4Embassy said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Windship said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm.Isnt there a fence or wall around every prison in the world? Yes, there is and they've worked very well.
> The White House has a fence around it.
> Sensors can be placed in the groung to detect tunneling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The construction of the Berlin Wall that year reduced the number of escapees by 75% to around 2,300 per annum for the rest of the decade. The number of escapees fell further to 868 per annum during the 1970s and to only 334 per annum between 1980 and 1988."
> Escape attempts and victims of the inner German border - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> And that's with people shooting at you. Just a fence? Good luck with that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the berlin wall 3k miles long in the middle of no where?   Do you have a mental incapacity that we need to know about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ya, can see proof of it in the "newer new math" thread.
Click to expand...

Newer math thread?


----------



## RKMBrown

Delta4Embassy said:


> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.


Yeah fence is idiotic.  Only thing worse than the idiot republicans is the idiot democrats.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Mexicans came up with a high-tech solution to the fences. Google

us-mexico fences ladders


----------



## Oldglory1

Delta4Embassy said:


> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.



There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.


----------



## RKMBrown

Oldglory1 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.
Click to expand...


ROFL... was down to a trickle at the wall for a couple months while they built the tunnels and walked, and boated around the wall.


----------



## Oldglory1

RKMBrown said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL... was down to a trickle at the wall for a couple months while they built the tunnels and walked, and boated around the wall.
Click to expand...


Wrong!  Please provide proof of your assertions.  They merely moved further east to enter but if we have this type of wall along the most porous parts of our border as promised then it would be a big deterrent.  A lot fewer would even attempt to come here.   How many times do I have to mentions tunnel sensors to you?


----------



## RKMBrown

Oldglory1 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL... was down to a trickle at the wall for a couple months while they built the tunnels and walked, and boated around the wall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong!  Please provide proof of your assertions.  They merely moved further east to enter but if we have this type of wall along the most porous parts of our border as promised then it would be a big deterrent.  A lot fewer would even attempt to come here.   How many times do I have to mentions tunnel sensors to you?
Click to expand...

Are you retarded? The most porous part of our border is NINE THOUSAND MILES OF RIVER DESERT AND BEACHES.


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> main thing for me is the next generation or few generations .    .



Then stop worrying.

By the 3rd generation, English is the dominant language - even at home - for the descendants of Latino immigrants. Recent immigrants are assimilating at least as quickly and completely as previous immigrant groups did.


----------



## Camp

Oldglory1 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL... was down to a trickle at the wall for a couple months while they built the tunnels and walked, and boated around the wall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong!  Please provide proof of your assertions.  They merely moved further east to enter but if we have this type of wall along the most porous parts of our border as promised then it would be a big deterrent.  A lot fewer would even attempt to come here.   How many times do I have to mentions tunnel sensors to you?
Click to expand...

Tunnel sensors are easy to defeat. They are therefore not reliable and very costly to maintain, but still unreliable. Ask the Israel's.


----------



## pismoe

time goes on and tunneling sensors get better , declare war on tunnelers and just keep working and improving sensors rather than giving up to defeat and a  ' its too hard '  attitude  Camp .   Beside that tunnels aren't the big problem so build the wall , man the wall , use other means of surveillance and watch fer tunnels .


----------



## pismoe

like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .   200 million in 1970 and over 300 million in 2010 .


----------



## Camp

pismoe said:


> time goes on and tunneling sensors get better , declare war on tunnelers and just keep working and improving sensors rather than giving up to defeat and a  ' its too hard '  attitude  Camp .   Beside that tunnels aren't the big problem so build the wall , man the wall , use other means of surveillance and watch fer tunnels .


The more sensitive you make them the easier they are to confuse and defeat. The less sensitive you make them the more you need and costlier they are to maintain.


----------



## Oldglory1

RKMBrown said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL... was down to a trickle at the wall for a couple months while they built the tunnels and walked, and boated around the wall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong!  Please provide proof of your assertions.  They merely moved further east to enter but if we have this type of wall along the most porous parts of our border as promised then it would be a big deterrent.  A lot fewer would even attempt to come here.   How many times do I have to mentions tunnel sensors to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you retarded? The most porous part of our border is NINE THOUSAND MILES OF RIVER DESERT AND BEACHES.
Click to expand...


WTH  are you talking about?   Our southern borders is only 2,000 miles long!


----------



## HenryBHough

How to build the very necessary fence very inexpensively:

Require 30-days bread-and-water fed labour at fence-building from each illegal alien caught inside U.S. borders prior to their being placed on the far side of the border and being told to run or be shot.


----------



## Oldglory1

pismoe said:


> like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .   200 million in 1970 and over 300 million in 2010 .



I object to our "immigration" numbers not being diversified.    Since they aren't they are colonizing rather than assimilating.    I don't care how many generations go by if this continues especially via illegal immigration they will never fully assimilate to the English language.  Oh, they may learn it but will refuse to speak it unless they have to just like now.  As their numbers grow Spanish will replace English as the dominant language and I object to this unnatural and unlawful transformation of our country.


----------



## Unkotare

Oldglory1 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .   200 million in 1970 and over 300 million in 2010 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I object to our "immigration" numbers not being diversified.    Since they aren't they are colonizing rather than assimilating.    I don't care how many generations go by if this continues especially via illegal immigration they will never fully assimilate to the English language.  Oh, they may learn it but will refuse to speak it unless they have to just like now.  As their numbers grow Spanish will replace English as the dominant language and I object to this unnatural and unlawful transformation of our country.
Click to expand...



Your insecurity has now turned to paranoia. You are wrong.


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .




And it has been proven to you that your fears are irrational and pointless.


----------



## pismoe

not been proven and I have no fears , I just have preferences .    I don't want population growth in the USA .


----------



## Unkotare

Your irrational fears have been PROVEN baseless.


----------



## pismoe

I have no fears , I just don't want to see population growth in the USA Unkatore .   USA has about 310 million in 2010 and that's up from about 200 million in 1970 .


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> I have no fears.. .




You're as transparent as a plane of glass.


----------



## pismoe

stop the population growth in the USA Unkatore .


----------



## Unkotare

One of the biggest challenges we face in the future is a declining population, you idiot.


----------



## Windship

You give a lot of money to this site dont you uncle terrie? You can say just about anything without any disipline whatsoever with no worries of being put on notice huh?


----------



## pismoe

like I've said before , you are just looking to insure your social security check  and hoping for someone to do your butt wiping chores  [moppin up] [chuckle]  ehh Unkatore ??  ME , I'll take care of myself , thankyou very much !!


----------



## Windship

You can just insult ppl all day long and absolutely nothing happenes, huh?


----------



## Unkotare

Windship said:


> You give a lot of money to this site dont you uncle terrie? You can say just about anything without any disipline whatsoever with no worries of being put on notice huh?






Comment on the topic of the thread.


----------



## Windship

Unkotare said:


> One of the biggest challenges we face in the future is a declining population, you idiot.


 Your such an idiot uncle terrio. Why dont you elaborate on that a little?


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> like I've said before , you are just looking to insure your social security check  and hoping for someone to do your butt wiping chores!!




Like I've said before, you are wrong.


----------



## Unkotare

Windship said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the biggest challenges we face in the future is a declining population, you idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> Your such an idiot uncle terrio. Why dont you elaborate on that a little?
Click to expand...



Comment on the topic of the thread.


----------



## Windship

Dont tell me what to do.
And Im waiting for the details on how declining  population is a concern?
And Id like to hear just who it is a concern to as well.


----------



## pismoe

the way I see things is that if there was no Unkatore then there'd be no one to reply to so I like keeping him around .   His namecalling is childish , no big deal to me at all !!


----------



## Windship

Unkotare said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no fears.. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're as transparent as a plane of glass.
Click to expand...

 
Lol...and so are you uncle terrio.


----------



## Windship

pismoe said:


> the way I see things is that if there was no Unkatore then there'd be no one to reply to so I like keeping him around .   His namecalling is childish , no big deal to me at all !!


 
Sounds good but others are getting warnings while uncle terrio says whatever he wants and receives no warnings.
Thats not right.


----------



## Windship

pismoe said:


> the way I see things is that if there was no Unkatore then there'd be no one to reply to so I like keeping him around .   His namecalling is childish , no big deal to me at all !!


 


You could say the same for obama.


----------



## pismoe

maybe , I don't know Windship !!    How do you know when you get a warning , e mail or what ??


----------



## Windship

The warnings go to your inbox here.


----------



## Oldglory1

pismoe said:


> the way I see things is that if there was no Unkatore then there'd be no one to reply to so I like keeping him around .   His namecalling is childish , no big deal to me at all !!



There is more than one opposing view in here and they don't resort to childish insults and profanity.    Why would any civil, grownup adult like reading his hateful garbage?   Why can't he express his views without that?


----------



## pismoe

you make a very good point OldGlory !!


----------



## Vandalshandle

Oldglory1 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .   200 million in 1970 and over 300 million in 2010 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I object to our "immigration" numbers not being diversified.    Since they aren't they are colonizing rather than assimilating.    I don't care how many generations go by if this continues especially via illegal immigration they will never fully assimilate to the English language.  Oh, they may learn it but will refuse to speak it unless they have to just like now.  As their numbers grow Spanish will replace English as the dominant language and I object to this unnatural and unlawful transformation of our country.
Click to expand...


This is extremely ironic, in view of the fact that my house sits on land that was owned by Mexico until 1854, and has a saguaro cactus in the front yard that is older than that. Frankly, I am at a loss as to why half of the people who live here don't speak Spanish as their primary language.


----------



## Oldglory1

Vandalshandle said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .   200 million in 1970 and over 300 million in 2010 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I object to our "immigration" numbers not being diversified.    Since they aren't they are colonizing rather than assimilating.    I don't care how many generations go by if this continues especially via illegal immigration they will never fully assimilate to the English language.  Oh, they may learn it but will refuse to speak it unless they have to just like now.  As their numbers grow Spanish will replace English as the dominant language and I object to this unnatural and unlawful transformation of our country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is extremely ironic, in view of the fact that my house sits on land that was owned by Mexico until 1854, and has a saguaro cactus in the front yard that is older than that. Frankly, I am at a loss as to why half of the people who live here don't speak Spanish as their primary language.
Click to expand...


Your clue here is "once".   It doesn't belong to Mexico anymore.   It is only in the southwest (or Miami) where Spanish is spoken with any significance.  The rest of the country primarily speaks English and it's because English is our national de facto language.   Why would blacks, Asians and non-Hispanic whites speak Spanish?


----------



## Unkotare

How the world 8217 s populations are changing in one map - The Washington Post



Shrinking Societies The Other Population Crisis - Businessweek


----------



## Vandalshandle

Oldglory1 said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .   200 million in 1970 and over 300 million in 2010 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I object to our "immigration" numbers not being diversified.    Since they aren't they are colonizing rather than assimilating.    I don't care how many generations go by if this continues especially via illegal immigration they will never fully assimilate to the English language.  Oh, they may learn it but will refuse to speak it unless they have to just like now.  As their numbers grow Spanish will replace English as the dominant language and I object to this unnatural and unlawful transformation of our country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is extremely ironic, in view of the fact that my house sits on land that was owned by Mexico until 1854, and has a saguaro cactus in the front yard that is older than that. Frankly, I am at a loss as to why half of the people who live here don't speak Spanish as their primary language.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your clue here is "once".   It doesn't belong to Mexico anymore.   It is only in the southwest (or Miami) where Spanish is spoken with any significance.  The rest of the country primarily speaks English and it's because English is our national de facto language.   Why would blacks, Asians and non-Hispanic whites speak Spanish?
Click to expand...


So, when we bought he land from Mexico 160 years ago, everyone living here should have instantly stopped speaking Spanish. Gotcha!


----------



## RKMBrown

Oldglory1 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL... was down to a trickle at the wall for a couple months while they built the tunnels and walked, and boated around the wall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong!  Please provide proof of your assertions.  They merely moved further east to enter but if we have this type of wall along the most porous parts of our border as promised then it would be a big deterrent.  A lot fewer would even attempt to come here.   How many times do I have to mentions tunnel sensors to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you retarded? The most porous part of our border is NINE THOUSAND MILES OF RIVER DESERT AND BEACHES.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WTH  are you talking about?   Our southern borders is only 2,000 miles long!
Click to expand...

ROFL you think our southern border is a straight line?  ROFL  You think magic happens at the end of mexico's border and suddenly it's not the south any more?  Did you count Florida? Did you count California?  You think they don't know how to use boats in any other country outside the us?  WOW


----------



## pismoe

there are MANY means to exclude unwanted invaders as I roll my eyes RMK !!


----------



## Oldglory1

Vandalshandle said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> like I've said in previous posts Unkatore , I don't object to race , ethnicity .   I object to population growth in the USA land mass .   200 million in 1970 and over 300 million in 2010 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I object to our "immigration" numbers not being diversified.    Since they aren't they are colonizing rather than assimilating.    I don't care how many generations go by if this continues especially via illegal immigration they will never fully assimilate to the English language.  Oh, they may learn it but will refuse to speak it unless they have to just like now.  As their numbers grow Spanish will replace English as the dominant language and I object to this unnatural and unlawful transformation of our country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is extremely ironic, in view of the fact that my house sits on land that was owned by Mexico until 1854, and has a saguaro cactus in the front yard that is older than that. Frankly, I am at a loss as to why half of the people who live here don't speak Spanish as their primary language.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your clue here is "once".   It doesn't belong to Mexico anymore.   It is only in the southwest (or Miami) where Spanish is spoken with any significance.  The rest of the country primarily speaks English and it's because English is our national de facto language.   Why would blacks, Asians and non-Hispanic whites speak Spanish?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, when we bought he land from Mexico 160 years ago, everyone living here should have instantly stopped speaking Spanish. Gotcha!
Click to expand...


No one is saying that since all those people are dead now anyways.  Speaking a foreign language privately in a decent tone of voice or in the home is not the issue.  No one is suggesting that Spanish or any other foreign language be forbidden to be spoken.   Just show respect for where you are.   Most offenders do know English so in that case why aren't they speaking it?   They seem to have an adversion towards it.


----------



## Oldglory1

RKMBrown said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no proposal for a 3,000 mile fence.   Congress approved 700 miles of double wall on our southern border but they never funded it.  I am a Republican and taxes should be spent on things we need.  Securing our border is one of them.   It was erected on a few miles along our San Diego border and illegal entry was down to a trickle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL... was down to a trickle at the wall for a couple months while they built the tunnels and walked, and boated around the wall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong!  Please provide proof of your assertions.  They merely moved further east to enter but if we have this type of wall along the most porous parts of our border as promised then it would be a big deterrent.  A lot fewer would even attempt to come here.   How many times do I have to mentions tunnel sensors to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you retarded? The most porous part of our border is NINE THOUSAND MILES OF RIVER DESERT AND BEACHES.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WTH  are you talking about?   Our southern borders is only 2,000 miles long!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ROFL you think our southern border is a straight line?  ROFL  You think magic happens at the end of mexico's border and suddenly it's not the south any more?  Did you count Florida? Did you count California?  You think they don't know how to use boats in any other country outside the us?  WOW
Click to expand...


I am merely quoting the mileage that is considered to be our border with Mexico.


----------



## Unkotare

Oldglory1 said:


> Most offenders do know English so in that case why aren't they speaking it?   They seem to have an adversion [sic] towards it.




Again, NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS what language other people speak to each other or why or how loudly in private or public. "Offenders"? Who the fuck are you again? "An aversion"? (that's how you spell that word, hypocrite) You have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## Unkotare

Oldglory1 said:


> Speaking a foreign language privately in a decent tone of voice or in the home is not the issue. ..




YOU don't decide what's "a decent tone of voice" for anyone but yourself, Princess.


----------



## Oldglory1

Everyone in here should be entitled to express their opinion but with civility.   That's not telling other people what they can and can't do by merely expressing an opinion.     That's just plain idiotic!   Adults can agree  to disagree without childish insults, personal attacks and profanity.   Those who resort to making fun of typos or misspellings have shown they have lost the debate also.    Someone in here needs an anger management class.


----------



## TEA Party Patriot

S.J. said:


> Take away the freebies, legalize marijuana, and the problem goes away.



How can letting a bunch of stupid teenagers get high make illegal immigrants stop coming here? Do you seriously believe this or are you just using the immigration crisis as an excuse to push for being able to get your illegal drugs?


----------



## pismoe

with all respect TPP , ---   the argument for legalizing marijuana is because if its legal in the USA then pot from Mexico will dry up because anyone in the USA can get legally grown marijuana from / in the USA .   ---   something like that !!   So if a guy can buy at a legal government or private run pot store in the USA he then has no need for illegal pot from Mexico !!  I think that's the reasoning for legalizing marijuana .


----------



## S.J.

TEA Party Patriot said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take away the freebies, legalize marijuana, and the problem goes away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can letting a bunch of stupid teenagers get high make illegal immigrants stop coming here? Do you seriously believe this or are you just using the immigration crisis as an excuse to push for being able to get your illegal drugs?
Click to expand...

You misunderstood what I said.  I made two points, you only focused on one.  There are two problems with illegals coming into our country.  One problem is the freeloaders, the ones that come here for welfare, food stamps, and free healthcare.  Cut off those freebies and they'll stop coming.

The other problem is the drug dealers who come here to sell their goods.  Legalizing marijuana will take the profit out of their hands, which will take away their incentive to come here.


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> I think that's the reasoning for legalizing marijuana .




That's just one of many disingenuous 'reasons' given. The truth is that the potheads just want their weed.


----------



## Malamute

Luddly Neddite said:


> Because they never have.
> 
> During the Vietnam War This Is How 8230
> 
> 
> 
> Inside Mexico s Drug Tunnels - Photo Essays - TIME



So why do we have a fence around the White House and around schools and zoos?  Why do people have fences around their yards?  Why are there fences around prisons?


----------



## Malamute

RKMBrown said:


> NLT said:
> 
> 
> 
> two mile wide mine field along the mexican border would do wonders
> 
> 
> 
> Not so good for the wildlife, cattle, ranchers, and Towns and Cities along our side of the Rio Grande though.  And even if you did close all those towns down and ranchers, and kill all the animals... what about boats and planes?
Click to expand...


The wolves they're releasing aren't good for the cattle either.  Maybe they should have a 10 mile strip along the border and make it for wolves.


----------



## Conservative65

S.J. said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> *Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My back yard.
Click to expand...

 
Mine, too.  If they happen to get by the fence a more powerful method of keeping out someone that shouldn't be there is waiting.


----------



## Conservative65

Camp said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
Click to expand...

 
So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.


----------



## Camp

Conservative65 said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
Click to expand...

That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> Securing our borders would be easy if the people coming here knew they couldn't get jobs. They get jobs because people hire them knowing they are illegal and work for cheap. Stop that practice and they will stop coming. We won't stop the practice because we are not willing to jail the owners of the business owners who profit from the illegals coming here. It really is that simple.



Let's review. 

1.) Infiltrators coming here is a problem.
2.) We need to stop infiltrators from coming here.
3.) Punishing employers will stop infiltrators from invading.
4.) Absent punishing employers, do nothing to stop the invasion.

Point #4 is irrational. Better to take a multipronged approach to achieve the goal.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.


$35,000,000 per mile for fencing?


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.



From National Pravda Radio:

"It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."

Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*

The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.

"Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​


----------



## mudwhistle

Luddly Neddite said:


> Because they never have.
> 
> During the Vietnam War This Is How 8230
> 
> 
> 
> Inside Mexico s Drug Tunnels - Photo Essays - TIME


Minefields work much better.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Delta4Embassy said:


> 3000 mile fence, sentries every what 100 meters? 35,000-40,000 new hires needed, but Republicans are against taxes...Hmm, dilemna.


Only a simpleton would construct such a system.

1.) Create the 3,000 mile long physical barrier.
2.) Erect monitoring equipment along the barrier.
3.) Create a roadway running parallel with the barrier.
4.) Create section command HQ every 150 miles.
5.) Maintain balloon/blimp based overview which can spot thermal signatures of approaching infiltrators.
6.) Use modern management techniques to allocate officers to predicted breach zones to greet the infiltrators.

When we can spot approaching  infiltrators from a long way away, then we don't need to maintain Johnny on the Spot Border Agents at seldom used border sections. We maintain heavier agent presence in more populated sections of the border where the LEAD TIME from first observation to time of crossing is smaller. A complicated fence system slows down the border crossing time and enables agents to arrive in time to capture the infiltrators.


----------



## Conservative65

Camp said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
Click to expand...

 
I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers. 

Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.


----------



## Camp

Rikurzhen said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> $35,000,000 per mile for fencing?
Click to expand...

Cost are different from area to area. It isn't just the actual fence that comes into the cost. A lot of the border is on private property and has to be bought or confiscated. The confiscation brings in court cost. Also, the terrain differs from section to section. From what I have read, it looks like the average is about 6.5 million per mile. Seems to be a lot of maintenance and repair included in the price.
Using fencing in selected high traffic areas near populated areas appears to have value, but trying to do the whole border appears to be a huge boondoggle.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> $35,000,000 per mile for fencing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Cost are different from area to area. It isn't just the actual fence that comes into the cost. A lot of the border is on private property and has to be bought or confiscated. The confiscation brings in court cost. Also, the terrain differs from section to section. From what I have read, it looks like the average is about 6.5 million per mile. Seems to be a lot of maintenance and repair included in the price.
> Using fencing in selected high traffic areas near populated areas appears to have value, but trying to do the whole border appears to be a huge boondoggle.
Click to expand...


Think of how much money we could save if we didn't fund police departments. Catching criminals is hard work and police aren't 100% efficient at the task. Better to save the money that to spend it.


----------



## Camp

Rikurzhen said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
Click to expand...

It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
Click to expand...


Right. So, extrapolate. The manpower resources adjacent to a fenced section can now be redeployed, thinned down, to sections which have more crossings. Keep extending the fence and you create a funneling effect, think of it like shooting fish in a barrel. Extend the fence across the entire border and then you can concentrate on detecting the tunnels and blowing ships out of the water.


----------



## Vandalshandle

Conservative65 said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
Click to expand...


...so the government should use these armed guards to gun down people suspected of committing a misdemeanor without a trial?

I can hear the Founding Fathers turning over in their graves....


----------



## Rikurzhen

Fences don't work? Tell the Israelis:

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israel Security Agency report that in *2002, there were 452 fatalities *from terrorist attacks. Before the completion of the first continuous segment (July 2003) from the beginning of the Second Intifada, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. After the completion of the first continuous segment through the end of 2006, there were only 12 attacks based in the West Bank, killing 64 people and wounding 445.[5] *Terrorist attacks declined in 2007[5] and 2008[42] to 9 in 2010*.[43]​


----------



## Camp

Rikurzhen said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right. So, extrapolate. The manpower resources adjacent to a fenced section can now be redeployed, thinned down, to sections which have more crossings. Keep extending the fence and you create a funneling effect, think of it like shooting fish in a barrel. Extend the fence across the entire border and then you can concentrate on detecting the tunnels and blowing ships out of the water.
Click to expand...

The article indicated a large number of systems and manpower are used to maintain the fence in San Diego. Two fences, flood lights, a no man's land 150 feet wide, and trucks manned by border patrol.
It seems like you want to argue or ignore the many estimates of the cost of the fence strategy to cover the entire border. There really is no way around that cost. So why all the resistance against simply enforcing illegal hiring practices and laws that are cost effective and proven to be efficient where they have been applied? The answer is simple, corruption and the control special interest have over our politicians.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right. So, extrapolate. The manpower resources adjacent to a fenced section can now be redeployed, thinned down, to sections which have more crossings. Keep extending the fence and you create a funneling effect, think of it like shooting fish in a barrel. Extend the fence across the entire border and then you can concentrate on detecting the tunnels and blowing ships out of the water.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The article indicated a large number of systems and manpower are used to maintain the fence in San Diego. Two fences, flood lights, a no man's land 150 feet wide, and trucks manned by border patrol.
> It seems like you want to argue or ignore the many estimates of the cost of the fence strategy to cover the entire border. There really is no way around that cost.* So why all the resistance against simply enforcing illegal hiring practices* and laws that are cost effective and proven to be efficient where they have been applied? The answer is simple, corruption and the control special interest have over our politicians.
Click to expand...


I don't care about the cost, just like I don't care about the cost of paying for police. I have no problem with employer sanctions at all, but unlike you, I'm not fixated on carting employers off to jail as some kind of perverse revenge fantasy. Fine, let's punish employers if you can create a coalition to bring that about, but let's not hold up less contentious approaches which will do the job.

Yes, there is corruption in the political system. Republicans are very aware of this, hence the battle between the grass roots who want to stop immigration and the Democratic and Republican politicians who want to expand it in order to please their paymasters. Getting politicians to pass laws to imprison employers is going to be a tougher sell than building a wall. Smart people tend to pick the lowest hanging fruit rather than doing nothing until the most difficult option becomes feasible.


----------



## Camp

Rikurzhen said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right. So, extrapolate. The manpower resources adjacent to a fenced section can now be redeployed, thinned down, to sections which have more crossings. Keep extending the fence and you create a funneling effect, think of it like shooting fish in a barrel. Extend the fence across the entire border and then you can concentrate on detecting the tunnels and blowing ships out of the water.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The article indicated a large number of systems and manpower are used to maintain the fence in San Diego. Two fences, flood lights, a no man's land 150 feet wide, and trucks manned by border patrol.
> It seems like you want to argue or ignore the many estimates of the cost of the fence strategy to cover the entire border. There really is no way around that cost.* So why all the resistance against simply enforcing illegal hiring practices* and laws that are cost effective and proven to be efficient where they have been applied? The answer is simple, corruption and the control special interest have over our politicians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't care about the cost, just like I don't care about the cost of paying for police. I have no problem with employer sanctions at all, but unlike you, I'm not fixated on carting employers off to jail as some kind of perverse revenge fantasy. Fine, let's punish employers if you can create a coalition to bring that about, but let's not hold up less contentious approaches which will do the job.
> 
> Yes, there is corruption in the political system. Republicans are very aware of this, hence the battle between the grass roots who want to stop immigration and the Democratic and Republican politicians who want to expand it in order to please their paymasters. Getting politicians to pass laws to imprison employers is going to be a tougher sell than building a wall. Smart people tend to pick the lowest hanging fruit rather than doing nothing until the most difficult option becomes feasible.
Click to expand...

We already have the laws, they just aren't enforced. And enforcing those laws is not a matter of revenge against business owners. It proposes the simple implementation of laws already on the books to use a pragmatic strategy to resolve and solve a national problem. Hire illegal's to work at your business and you get a hefty fine than makes your illegal hiring unprofitable. Do it again and you get a vacation.


----------



## westwall

Camp said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
Click to expand...






Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> 
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right. So, extrapolate. The manpower resources adjacent to a fenced section can now be redeployed, thinned down, to sections which have more crossings. Keep extending the fence and you create a funneling effect, think of it like shooting fish in a barrel. Extend the fence across the entire border and then you can concentrate on detecting the tunnels and blowing ships out of the water.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The article indicated a large number of systems and manpower are used to maintain the fence in San Diego. Two fences, flood lights, a no man's land 150 feet wide, and trucks manned by border patrol.
> It seems like you want to argue or ignore the many estimates of the cost of the fence strategy to cover the entire border. There really is no way around that cost.* So why all the resistance against simply enforcing illegal hiring practices* and laws that are cost effective and proven to be efficient where they have been applied? The answer is simple, corruption and the control special interest have over our politicians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't care about the cost, just like I don't care about the cost of paying for police. I have no problem with employer sanctions at all, but unlike you, I'm not fixated on carting employers off to jail as some kind of perverse revenge fantasy. Fine, let's punish employers if you can create a coalition to bring that about, but let's not hold up less contentious approaches which will do the job.
> 
> Yes, there is corruption in the political system. Republicans are very aware of this, hence the battle between the grass roots who want to stop immigration and the Democratic and Republican politicians who want to expand it in order to please their paymasters. Getting politicians to pass laws to imprison employers is going to be a tougher sell than building a wall. Smart people tend to pick the lowest hanging fruit rather than doing nothing until the most difficult option becomes feasible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We already have the laws, they just aren't enforced. And enforcing those laws is not a matter of revenge against business owners. It proposes the simple implementation of laws already on the books to use a pragmatic strategy to resolve and solve a national problem. Hire illegal's to work at your business and you get a hefty fine than makes your illegal hiring unprofitable. Do it again and you get a vacation.
Click to expand...


And we also have laws against illegal infiltrators crossing the border but when government doesn't enforce the laws then we're in a bit of a pickle.

ICE could be raiding the State of the Union address and hauling away the infiltrator props the President has sitting in the audience, ICE could have arrested Obama's aunt and shipped her to Africa, ICE can raid schools and pick up infiltrator children, same with universities. We could be having glorious mass deportations if only the laws were faithfully executed.

If we can't count on laws being enforced, then an actual barrier to crossing is far, far, far better than no barrier, even if it is understaffed by purposeful design from footdragging politicians.


----------



## westwall

Vandalshandle said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...so the government should use these armed guards to gun down people suspected of committing a misdemeanor without a trial?
> 
> I can hear the Founding Fathers turning over in their graves....
Click to expand...








I believe the term is "catch and release"..... on THEIR side of the border.   There's nothing in his post that implies killing them.


----------



## Oldglory1

Camp said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right. So, extrapolate. The manpower resources adjacent to a fenced section can now be redeployed, thinned down, to sections which have more crossings. Keep extending the fence and you create a funneling effect, think of it like shooting fish in a barrel. Extend the fence across the entire border and then you can concentrate on detecting the tunnels and blowing ships out of the water.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The article indicated a large number of systems and manpower are used to maintain the fence in San Diego. Two fences, flood lights, a no man's land 150 feet wide, and trucks manned by border patrol.
> It seems like you want to argue or ignore the many estimates of the cost of the fence strategy to cover the entire border. There really is no way around that cost. So why all the resistance against simply enforcing illegal hiring practices and laws that are cost effective and proven to be efficient where they have been applied? The answer is simple, corruption and the control special interest have over our politicians.
Click to expand...


You can't put a price on national security.  It's much cheaper to build a good physical barrier than to allow illegal aliens to run rampant in our country costing us billions a year.  Besides, criminals and terrorists aren't looking for jobs so penalizing the employers will do nothing to stop those types from coming here. Other than that I am all for mandating e-verify across the board to stop both the employers and these illegals from breaking our labor laws.


----------



## Oldglory1

Camp said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
Click to expand...


The point is to put up a good physical barrier along the most porous areas of the border then they won't have any different places to cross as the Border Patrol can take of the rest.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Oldglory1 said:


> You can't put a price on national security.  It's much cheaper to build a good physical barrier than to allow illegal aliens to run rampant in our country* costing us billions a year.*  Besides, criminals and terrorists aren't looking for jobs so penalizing the employers will do nothing to stop those types from coming here. Other than that I am all for mandating e-verify across the board to stop both the employers and these illegals from breaking our labor laws.



It costs $12,000+ per year to educate one child in public schools.  If it costs $144,000 per year to pay and operate ONE border agent and he stops only ONE child infiltrator per year, then he's paid for himself.

That border fence, costing the high amount of $49 billion to erect is the equivalent of educating only 340,000 infiltrator children. Money for the fence is money well spent.


----------



## Camp

westwall said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.
Click to expand...

I guess the difference between a relatively small section of security enhanced fence and one that stretches for thousands of miles escapes you.


----------



## westwall

Camp said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the difference between a relatively small section of security enhanced fence and one that stretches for thousands of miles escapes you.
Click to expand...





See the post above yours.....


----------



## Camp

westwall said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the difference between a relatively small section of security enhanced fence and one that stretches for thousands of miles escapes you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the post above yours.....
Click to expand...

All that expense and trouble and they still manage to build tunnels. We find an average of two sophisticated tunnels, some of them with rail systems every year. Only the smugglers know how many we don't find. I wonder how many pro fencer's have ever actually spent any time on the border areas of So. Cal, AZ, NM and Texas.


----------



## westwall

Camp said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> 
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the difference between a relatively small section of security enhanced fence and one that stretches for thousands of miles escapes you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the post above yours.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All that expense and trouble and they still manage to build tunnels. We find an average of two sophisticated tunnels, some of them with rail systems every year. Only the smugglers know how many we don't find. I wonder how many pro fencer's have ever actually spent any time on the border areas of So. Cal, AZ, NM and Texas.
Click to expand...






Yes, let them spend their time building tunnels.  Those are surprisingly easy to find once you know how to.  Trust me, if I were the one looking I would find them in a day or less and the cost would be negligible.  It's simply amazing what you can do with remote sensing these days.  Amazing I tell you!


----------



## Rikurzhen

Camp said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> 
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the difference between a relatively small section of security enhanced fence and one that stretches for thousands of miles escapes you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the post above yours.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All that expense and trouble and they still manage to build tunnels. We find an average of two sophisticated tunnels, some of them with rail systems every year. Only the smugglers know how many we don't find. I wonder how many pro fencer's have ever actually spent any time on the border areas of So. Cal, AZ, NM and Texas.
Click to expand...


Tunnel detection technologies exist. Alternatively, we can just set off underground explosions in likely tunnel locations and trap infiltrators under ground.

More effective though would be to use freed up resources to GATHER INTELLIGENCE on tunnel locations and then destroy them. A tunnel is a very capital intensive undertaking so destroying tunnels before they earn their backers a profit is a very good way of curtailing similar future undertakings.


----------



## Vandalshandle

westwall said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...so the government should use these armed guards to gun down people suspected of committing a misdemeanor without a trial?
> 
> I can hear the Founding Fathers turning over in their graves....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the term is "catch and release"..... on THEIR side of the border.   There's nothing in his post that implies killing them.
Click to expand...


Sorry Westwall. That pesky constitution still gets in your way. In order for someone to be deported, he must be an "illegal alien". Only a court of law can make that determination. I cross the border all the time, and I am not an illegal alien.


----------



## RKMBrown

Conservative65 said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok with me , start the country wide Arresting .
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
Click to expand...

It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.


----------



## Oldglory1

Camp said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the difference between a relatively small section of security enhanced fence and one that stretches for thousands of miles escapes you.
Click to expand...


What congress approved was 700 miles of double walled fencing.    Those were the most porous areas of the border.   So that's not a small section.   Unfortunately congress didn't fund it.


----------



## Oldglory1

RKMBrown said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
Click to expand...


It's nothing like a traffic ticket.   Coming here illegally is against our immigration laws and deportation is mandated.   Can you be deported for a traffic ticket?


----------



## Rikurzhen

RKMBrown said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't it's against the law to arrest illegal immigrants.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
Click to expand...

That's easy peasy to change. Congress simply reclassifies illegal crossing of the border by a non-American as a felony.


----------



## Vandalshandle

Oldglory1 said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> My views aren't extremist, yours are. My views are pragmatic. I'm not the one suggesting 10's of billions of dollars be spent *on a system that doesn't work and never has worked anywhere in the world.* That is the definition of extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From National Pravda Radio:
> 
> "It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."
> 
> Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.* He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.*
> 
> The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.
> 
> "Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you mean it DOES work where it is actually emplaced.  I see.  Soooooooo, if one were to you know....build it elsewhere, I guess that would work too then wouldn't it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the difference between a relatively small section of security enhanced fence and one that stretches for thousands of miles escapes you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What congress approved was 700 miles of double walled fencing.    Those were the most porous areas of the border.   So that's not a small section.   Unfortunately congress didn't fund it.
Click to expand...


Damn! There goes my shovel and ladder business venture....


----------



## RKMBrown

Oldglory1 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's nothing like a traffic ticket.   Coming here illegally is against our immigration laws and deportation is mandated.   Can you be deported for a traffic ticket?
Click to expand...

You can if you're not an American, and don't have a visa.  Well you can unless the democrats are in charge.  American's are not deported for any reason.  Are you mentally handicapped?


----------



## Oldglory1

RKMBrown said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's nothing like a traffic ticket.   Coming here illegally is against our immigration laws and deportation is mandated.   Can you be deported for a traffic ticket?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can if you're not an American, and don't have a visa.  Well you can unless the democrats are in charge.  American's are not deported for any reason.  Are you mentally handicapped?
Click to expand...


I was referring to Americans getting a traffic ticket.    No sheet that was my point Americans can't be deported for a traffic ticket so there is no comparison to them getting a traffic ticket and illegal aliens violating our immigration laws  which the analogy evidently flew right over YOUR mentally  handicapped brain.   The punishment fits the crime in both cases.   Get a ticket...pay a fine.   Violate our immigration laws and you get deported.    Jumping our border is only the first law they break.   Many if not most are using fake and stolen ID's or committing tax evasion both are felonies.   To compare all of the above to getting a traffic ticket is ludicrous .  Illegal aliens don't even have a right to be in this country but a citizen with a traffic ticket does.


----------



## Conservative65

Rikurzhen said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's easy peasy to change. Congress simply reclassifies illegal crossing of the border by a non-American as a felony.
Click to expand...

 
Changing what it’s called won’t mean a thing unless we change what we DO.


----------



## Conservative65

Oldglory1 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't against the law to arrest the people who knowingly hire them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's nothing like a traffic ticket.   Coming here illegally is against our immigration laws and deportation is mandated.   Can you be deported for a traffic ticket?
Click to expand...

 
Since we have 20 million illegals here now, it doens't seem coming here illegally gets you as much as a speeding ticket.


----------



## Conservative65

Vandalshandle said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you claim the entire problem is with those that hire them?  That's like saying that if I leave my door unlock and a thief comes in and takes my belongings it's my fault for not locking the door.   I've actually had someone tell me that I should be held responsible if a gun someone broke a window in my truck to steal and that was in the glove box as State law requires is used in a crime.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...so the government should use these armed guards to gun down people suspected of committing a misdemeanor without a trial?
> 
> I can hear the Founding Fathers turning over in their graves....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The founding fathers would consider someone like you a traitor.  Since those sneaking into the country don’t have Constitutional a Constitutional right to do so, they aren’t protected.  If someone tried to sneak into my house other than the normal ways of entering, should I wait to see what they are doing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the term is "catch and release"..... on THEIR side of the border.   There's nothing in his post that implies killing them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry Westwall. That pesky constitution still gets in your way. In order for someone to be deported, he must be an "illegal alien". Only a court of law can make that determination. I cross the border all the time, and I am not an illegal alien.
Click to expand...


----------



## RKMBrown

Oldglory1 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a poor comparison, no comparison at all actually. And I didn't say illegal hiring was the entire problem, I am pointing out that it is a major one, and one that can be addressed very easily it we had the will.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's nothing like a traffic ticket.   Coming here illegally is against our immigration laws and deportation is mandated.   Can you be deported for a traffic ticket?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can if you're not an American, and don't have a visa.  Well you can unless the democrats are in charge.  American's are not deported for any reason.  Are you mentally handicapped?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was referring to Americans getting a traffic ticket.    No sheet that was my point Americans can't be deported for a traffic ticket so there is no comparison to them getting a traffic ticket and illegal aliens violating our immigration laws  which the analogy evidently flew right over YOUR mentally  handicapped brain.   The punishment fits the crime in both cases.   Get a ticket...pay a fine.   Violate our immigration laws and you get deported.    Jumping our border is only the first law they break.   Many if not most are using fake and stolen ID's or committing tax evasion both are felonies.   To compare all of the above to getting a traffic ticket is ludicrous .  Illegal aliens don't even have a right to be in this country but a citizen with a traffic ticket does.
Click to expand...

Yet Obama won't do his job and deport them.  Instead he gives them money, and a free ride to the state of their choice.


----------



## Conservative65

Rikurzhen said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It works at relatively small sections. It hasn't worked to slow the overall numbers of illegal crosser's. They just go to different places to cross.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right. So, extrapolate. The manpower resources adjacent to a fenced section can now be redeployed, thinned down, to sections which have more crossings. Keep extending the fence and you create a funneling effect, think of it like shooting fish in a barrel. Extend the fence across the entire border and then you can concentrate on detecting the tunnels and blowing ships out of the water.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The article indicated a large number of systems and manpower are used to maintain the fence in San Diego. Two fences, flood lights, a no man's land 150 feet wide, and trucks manned by border patrol.
> It seems like you want to argue or ignore the many estimates of the cost of the fence strategy to cover the entire border. There really is no way around that cost.* So why all the resistance against simply enforcing illegal hiring practices* and laws that are cost effective and proven to be efficient where they have been applied? The answer is simple, corruption and the control special interest have over our politicians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't care about the cost, just like I don't care about the cost of paying for police. I have no problem with employer sanctions at all, but unlike you, I'm not fixated on carting employers off to jail as some kind of perverse revenge fantasy. Fine, let's punish employers if you can create a coalition to bring that about, but let's not hold up less contentious approaches which will do the job.
> 
> Yes, there is corruption in the political system. Republicans are very aware of this, hence the battle between the grass roots who want to stop immigration and the Democratic and Republican politicians who want to expand it in order to please their paymasters. Getting politicians to pass laws to imprison employers is going to be a tougher sell than building a wall. Smart people tend to pick the lowest hanging fruit rather than doing nothing until the most difficult option becomes feasible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We already have the laws, they just aren't enforced. And enforcing those laws is not a matter of revenge against business owners. It proposes the simple implementation of laws already on the books to use a pragmatic strategy to resolve and solve a national problem. Hire illegal's to work at your business and you get a hefty fine than makes your illegal hiring unprofitable. Do it again and you get a vacation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And we also have laws against illegal infiltrators crossing the border but when government doesn't enforce the laws then we're in a bit of a pickle.
> 
> ICE could be raiding the State of the Union address and hauling away the infiltrator props the President has sitting in the audience, ICE could have arrested Obama's aunt and shipped her to Africa, ICE can raid schools and pick up infiltrator children, same with universities. We could be having glorious mass deportations if only the laws were faithfully executed.
> 
> If we can't count on laws being enforced, then an actual barrier to crossing is far, far, far better than no barrier, even if it is understaffed by purposeful design from footdragging politicians.
Click to expand...




RKMBrown said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it's a major problem but your entire post mentioned only the employers.
> 
> Deporting illegals would also be addressed very easily if we deported all of them then put armed guards at the border.  Too many don't have the will to do that including those who think it's perfectly OK for them to commit a criminal act coming here simply because they are wanting to better themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a criminal act, it's a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's nothing like a traffic ticket.   Coming here illegally is against our immigration laws and deportation is mandated.   Can you be deported for a traffic ticket?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can if you're not an American, and don't have a visa.  Well you can unless the democrats are in charge.  American's are not deported for any reason.  Are you mentally handicapped?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was referring to Americans getting a traffic ticket.    No sheet that was my point Americans can't be deported for a traffic ticket so there is no comparison to them getting a traffic ticket and illegal aliens violating our immigration laws  which the analogy evidently flew right over YOUR mentally  handicapped brain.   The punishment fits the crime in both cases.   Get a ticket...pay a fine.   Violate our immigration laws and you get deported.    Jumping our border is only the first law they break.   Many if not most are using fake and stolen ID's or committing tax evasion both are felonies.   To compare all of the above to getting a traffic ticket is ludicrous .  Illegal aliens don't even have a right to be in this country but a citizen with a traffic ticket does.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yet Obama won't do his job and deport them.  Instead he gives them money, and a free ride to the state of their choice.
Click to expand...

 
Then sues States that do try to do something about it.


----------



## Vandalshandle

I have no problem with the ACLU's legal challenges against government abuse of power when they create unconstitutional laws. There is a legal way to change the constitution, without trampling on it.


----------



## rhodescholar

Camp said:


> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?



Berlin, USSR, israel/west bank, saudi arabia/yemen, north/south korea, etc.  If a government actually wants the fence/wall to work, it will.  If the government is like in the US where they actually want the illegals to come into the country the way obama does, it won't.


----------



## Roadrunner

S.J. said:


> Take away the freebies, legalize marijuana, and the problem goes away.


Take away the freebies, and chronically unemployed Americans will drive them across the border as they scramble to get jobs formerly too hard for Americans to do in an attempt to avoid starvation.


----------



## Roadrunner

Manonthestreet said:


> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this


Claymores work, and we have plenty.


----------



## Roadrunner

Camp said:


> Securing our borders would be easy if the people coming here knew they couldn't get jobs. They get jobs because people hire them knowing they are illegal and work for cheap. Stop that practice and they will stop coming. We won't stop the practice because we are not willing to jail the owners of the business owners who profit from the illegals coming here. It really is that simple.


Jail the owners, and let the Americans that won't do the jobs the illegals now perform either work or starve.


----------



## Roadrunner

Camp said:


> Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.


Workshy Americans on welfare create the problem, don't kid yourself.


----------



## Roadrunner

westwall said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to work in most every place that they are manned and properly maintained.
Click to expand...

Soviets fence and mined thousands of miles of border.

Worked pretty well.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.


----------



## Oldglory1

Roadrunner said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Securing our borders would be easy if the people coming here knew they couldn't get jobs. They get jobs because people hire them knowing they are illegal and work for cheap. Stop that practice and they will stop coming. We won't stop the practice because we are not willing to jail the owners of the business owners who profit from the illegals coming here. It really is that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> Jail the owners, and let the Americans that won't do the jobs the illegals now perform either work or starve.
Click to expand...


Geez, I get so sick of the propaganda that illegals are only doing jobs that Americans refuse to do.   There are no jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage except for maybe picking crops of which there are unlimited H-2A visas for legal, foreign workers.    We don't need illegal aliens for anything.   Employers only hire them because they will work for less and yes I agree they should be held accountable and so should the illegals themselves.


----------



## Oldglory1

Delta4Embassy said:


> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.


 
Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.


----------



## Oldglory1

Roadrunner said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Workshy Americans on welfare create the problem, don't kid yourself.
Click to expand...

No, illegal aliens wiling to work for less is the problem.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Oldglory1 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.
Click to expand...


Better way is to simply create a genuine disincentive to immigrating illegally as with more severe penalties for employers who hire illegals, and things on that end of it. If no one's willing to hire you your reason for coming here evaporates.


----------



## Oldglory1

Delta4Embassy said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better way is to simply create a genuine disincentive to immigrating illegally as with more severe penalties for employers who hire illegals, and things on that end of it. If no one's willing to hire you your reason for coming here evaporates.
Click to expand...


I agree but it needs to go further than that.   All benefits to illegal aliens need to be removed and birthright citizenship needs to change.   They can come here now and give birth on our soil and collect all kinds of welfare benefits through them.  Work a few odd jobs under the table and they can survive with both.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Oldglory1 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better way is to simply create a genuine disincentive to immigrating illegally as with more severe penalties for employers who hire illegals, and things on that end of it. If no one's willing to hire you your reason for coming here evaporates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree but it needs to go further than that.   All benefits to illegal aliens need to be removed and birthright citizenship needs to change.   They can come here now and give birth on our soil and collect all kinds of welfare benefits through them.  Work a few odd jobs under the table and they can survive with both.
Click to expand...


If that's all they're doing I could give a shit. That makes non-citizenship a mere technicality. American labor benefits from illegal immigrant labor. Until that changes, nothing done to fight illegal immigration can work because the benefit outweighs the risk. Eliminate the benefit and suddenly the risk outweighs the benefit. But going after illegal immigrant rights absent going after business is simply persecuting honest workers living within the law but for how they got here. And in a very hypocritical way. We accept the labor help from illegals, yet punish them for being illegals. That's unfair and not a good way of doing things for a country that claims it's a glboal force for good.


----------



## Oldglory1

Delta4Embassy said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better way is to simply create a genuine disincentive to immigrating illegally as with more severe penalties for employers who hire illegals, and things on that end of it. If no one's willing to hire you your reason for coming here evaporates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree but it needs to go further than that.   All benefits to illegal aliens need to be removed and birthright citizenship needs to change.   They can come here now and give birth on our soil and collect all kinds of welfare benefits through them.  Work a few odd jobs under the table and they can survive with both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's all they're doing I could give a shit. That makes non-citizenship a mere technicality. American labor benefits from illegal immigrant labor. Until that changes, nothing done to fight illegal immigration can work because the benefit outweighs the risk. Eliminate the benefit and suddenly the risk outweighs the benefit. But going after illegal immigrant rights absent going after business is simply persecuting honest workers living within the law but for how they got here. And in a very hypocritical way. We accept the labor help from illegals, yet punish them for being illegals. That's unfair and not a good way of doing things for a country that claims it's a glboal force for good.
Click to expand...


How does the American laborer benefit from illegal alien labor?   You're not making any sense here.   Who is suggesting that we only go after the illegal aliens without going after the employers also?   Hint... no one!  Honest workers?   They are either working with a fake or stolen ID or working under the table and not paying income taxes.   Their first dishonest act was crossing our border illegally in the first place.  Who is this "we" you are referring to?  Most Americans do not employ them all they get is an increase in their taxes supporting their social costs.  Not to mention the loss of jobs and reduced wages.   I guess you don't care about the unfairness to the American worker/taxpayer.  You care only for these immigration lawbreakers. Why do you love these foreigners more than your fellow law abiding citizens?  Every country in the world has immigration laws and for good reasons.   How is it unfair to enforce them?


----------



## Vandalshandle

Roadrunner said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walls work all over the world..... ... govt simply doesnt want them too so it puts out garbage excuses like this
> 
> 
> 
> Where have walls or fences anywhere in the world worked?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to work in most every place that they are manned and properly maintained.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Soviets fence and mined thousands of miles of border.
> 
> Worked pretty well.
Click to expand...


So, we should be more like the Soviets were.

Road, I seriously wonder why you post at all. Mine the border with claymore mines, shoot misdemeanor trespassers, adopt Soviet strategies... Why in the hell would anyone in their right mind take you even slightly seriously?


----------



## Vandalshandle

Oldglory1 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.
Click to expand...


Link, please.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Oldglory1 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better way is to simply create a genuine disincentive to immigrating illegally as with more severe penalties for employers who hire illegals, and things on that end of it. If no one's willing to hire you your reason for coming here evaporates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree but it needs to go further than that.   All benefits to illegal aliens need to be removed and birthright citizenship needs to change.   They can come here now and give birth on our soil and collect all kinds of welfare benefits through them.  Work a few odd jobs under the table and they can survive with both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's all they're doing I could give a shit. That makes non-citizenship a mere technicality. American labor benefits from illegal immigrant labor. Until that changes, nothing done to fight illegal immigration can work because the benefit outweighs the risk. Eliminate the benefit and suddenly the risk outweighs the benefit. But going after illegal immigrant rights absent going after business is simply persecuting honest workers living within the law but for how they got here. And in a very hypocritical way. We accept the labor help from illegals, yet punish them for being illegals. That's unfair and not a good way of doing things for a country that claims it's a glboal force for good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does the American laborer benefit from illegal alien labor?   You're not making any sense here.   Who is suggesting that we only go after the illegal aliens without going after the employers also?   Hint... no one!  Honest workers?   They are either working with a fake or stolen ID or working under the table and not paying income taxes.   Their first dishonest act was crossing our border illegally in the first place.  Who is this "we" you are referring to?  Most Americans do not employ them all they get is an increase in their taxes supporting their social costs.  Not to mention the loss of jobs and reduced wages.   I guess you don't care about the unfairness to the American worker/taxpayer.  You care only for these immigration lawbreakers. Why do you love these foreigners more than your fellow law abiding citizens?  Every country in the world has immigration laws and for good reasons.   How is it unfair to enforce them?
Click to expand...


Better question's why do you hate them so much? Just people, whether legal or not they're objectively no different than anyone else already here. You just some shitkicking racist 'tard hitting the response pedal when someone shows you a picture of brown people? 

"Me dun like brown peeple." (stomps the pedal)

Quit being such a whiny little bitch about things and mind your own business for a change. Pleanty of your beloved citizens are hardcore criminals and perfectly legal citizens. If the worst thing an illegal immigrant has done is skip some papaerwork a blessing on their house. 

You can go F yourself.


----------



## Vandalshandle

Nobody is going to build a wall. The cost is prohibitive, and it will not work, unless they confiscate all shovels, latters, boats, cars, and trucks.

That being settled, what I am REALLY interested in is how the republicans are going to double deportations on  which they claim Obama is dragging his feet.

They have two years to prove this before the next election. This is going to be fun to watch, and, of course, the figures will be available of the number of deportees, online.

I suggest that they start ramping up their argument in advance that the figures are bogus. It will save time, later.


----------



## rhodescholar

Delta4Embassy said:


> Better way is to simply create a genuine disincentive to immigrating illegally as with more severe penalties for employers who hire illegals, and things on that end of it. If no one's willing to hire you your reason for coming here evaporates.



Why do some people look at this as an A/B situation, as if the potential remedies are mutually exclusive?

Attack it from ALL sides, simultaneously...build the wall 100 feet high, 50 feet down, with guard towers, arrest the business owners hiring them, deport all illegals, change the 14th amendment to remove the birthright citizenship nonsense, etc.  There is no reason all of these steps cannot be taken at one time.

Once the H1Bs and illegals are out of the country, and employers see that they are no longer an option, they will HAVE to start paying better salaries to attract americans.  If that means higher costs, fine - we are ALREADY paying insane levels of taxes to cover benefits for illegals as it is, so the net cost would likely be the same.  As for the welfare collectors who prefer to cash checks rather than work, implement a lifetime limit to 5 years, that should be plenty of time to pull one's self out of a bad life situation and move forward into a salaried position.

The 2 constituencies opposing the repair of this issue are the democrats seeking future voters of beholden poor illegals grateful for and needing lots of handouts, and the corporates who benefit from paying low, non-competitive wages to the illegals.  Until enough americans stand up and begin an uprising, this situation will continue until the country implodes from an inability to continue to tax a vanishing, jobless middle class to pay for the illegals' benefits while the corporates/wealthy are hoarding most of the revenues.


----------



## Vandalshandle

I was going to reply to the above, but, in my part of the country, we have a saying. "You can't educate a turnip".


----------



## Oldglory1

Delta4Embassy said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, on the border with San Diego a double layered wall was installed and it cut illegal immigration back to a trickle.    The double layered wall on the most porous areas of the border would do the same.  Electrify it with a non-lethal zap and it would do the trick.  No need for land mines or shoot to kill orders.   A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol do their jobs more effectively.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better way is to simply create a genuine disincentive to immigrating illegally as with more severe penalties for employers who hire illegals, and things on that end of it. If no one's willing to hire you your reason for coming here evaporates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree but it needs to go further than that.   All benefits to illegal aliens need to be removed and birthright citizenship needs to change.   They can come here now and give birth on our soil and collect all kinds of welfare benefits through them.  Work a few odd jobs under the table and they can survive with both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's all they're doing I could give a shit. That makes non-citizenship a mere technicality. American labor benefits from illegal immigrant labor. Until that changes, nothing done to fight illegal immigration can work because the benefit outweighs the risk. Eliminate the benefit and suddenly the risk outweighs the benefit. But going after illegal immigrant rights absent going after business is simply persecuting honest workers living within the law but for how they got here. And in a very hypocritical way. We accept the labor help from illegals, yet punish them for being illegals. That's unfair and not a good way of doing things for a country that claims it's a glboal force for good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does the American laborer benefit from illegal alien labor?   You're not making any sense here.   Who is suggesting that we only go after the illegal aliens without going after the employers also?   Hint... no one!  Honest workers?   They are either working with a fake or stolen ID or working under the table and not paying income taxes.   Their first dishonest act was crossing our border illegally in the first place.  Who is this "we" you are referring to?  Most Americans do not employ them all they get is an increase in their taxes supporting their social costs.  Not to mention the loss of jobs and reduced wages.   I guess you don't care about the unfairness to the American worker/taxpayer.  You care only for these immigration lawbreakers. Why do you love these foreigners more than your fellow law abiding citizens?  Every country in the world has immigration laws and for good reasons.   How is it unfair to enforce them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better question's why do you hate them so much? Just people, whether legal or not they're objectively no different than anyone else already here. You just some shitkicking racist 'tard hitting the response pedal when someone shows you a picture of brown people?
> 
> "Me dun like brown peeple." (stomps the pedal)
> 
> Quit being such a whiny little bitch about things and mind your own business for a change. Pleanty of your beloved citizens are hardcore criminals and perfectly legal citizens. If the worst thing an illegal immigrant has done is skip some papaerwork a blessing on their house.
> 
> You can go F yourself.
Click to expand...


No, it's not a better question as hate has nothing to do with wanting immigrants to come here legally rather than in violation of our laws. American lawbreakers are people to but what has that to do with anything?   Should they get a pass on justice just because they are people? WTH do you think laws are in place in the first place?

Ah, so now with the childish insults.  A sure sign that you've lost the argument..   FYI, I have no problem with "brown" people who are here legally and respect our laws.   So stick your race card where the sun don't shine!

Our laws are my business and every other American's business.  Any citizen criminals should face justice also.

LOL, so all they did was skip some paperwork?   You're totally clueless aren't you?   That's only the tip of the iceberg of what they do.  How's this for analogy?  An American skips paying for something aka steals it   Should he get a pass on that?   Ah, and now you end with childish profanity.   Typical illegal alien supporter and American hater.


----------



## Roadrunner

Delta4Embassy said:


> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.


You have a problem with mines?


----------



## Roadrunner

Oldglory1 said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Workshy Americans on welfare create the problem, don't kid yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, illegal aliens wiling to work for less is the problem.
Click to expand...

An American that can't compete with poor illegals in the land of free education just ought to slit his wrists and let karma recycle him.


----------



## RKMBrown

Roadrunner said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont work because for every 20 foot fence someone's making 21 foot ladders. Short of mining the border and placing guard towers with shoot to kill orders, fences don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a problem with mines?
Click to expand...

Not in your yard.  You can put all the mines you want in your back yard.


----------



## Oldglory1

Roadrunner said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Estimates of completing the 1,400 miles of border fence that remain fence free range from a low of 23 billion dollars to a high of 49 billion dollars. That does not include things like monitoring, radar, watch towers manpower, drones, etc. All that for a system that may not be efficient. Spend less than a billion accountents, prosecutors and prison cells for the folks who hire illegals and we can save wheel barrels and tractor trailer loads of money. Heck, we could make the program pay for itself with fines levied against the criminals who create the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Workshy Americans on welfare create the problem, don't kid yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, illegal aliens wiling to work for less is the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> An American that can't compete with poor illegals in the land of free education just ought to slit his wrists and let karma recycle him.
Click to expand...

.  

It's not because they can't compete skill wise and you know it!   It's because illegal aliens are willing to work for less so the greedy employers hire them instead to increase their profits.    Stop playing dumb here!


----------



## JoeB131

pismoe said:


> separation wall in ISRAEL works pretty well !! Walls work fine , might not exclude 100% but 95 plus % success is good enough and then you use other steps to exclude interlopers . I hear that the Saudis are building border walls as I type .



except Israel is an apartheid state with daily terrorist incidents.  I'm not sure that's a role model anyone would want to follow.


----------



## hjmick

Luddly Neddite said:


> Because they never have.
> 
> During the Vietnam War This Is How 8230
> 
> 
> 
> Inside Mexico s Drug Tunnels - Photo Essays - TIME




One need look no further than the fence around the White House... Not even that one can keep a Gonzalez out...


----------



## JoeB131

PredFan said:


> Luddley's Left Wing Nutter Rule # 5446:
> 
> The fence isn't 100% effective so it's best to do nothing at all.



The problem is, it's not even 50 percent effective. 

On Penn and Teller's B.S., they went to a home Depot and hired 6 illegals to build a section of fence just like the ones you guys want to build.  It was about a 20 foot section, and it took them most of the day to do it. 

Then they broke them into three teams.  One team had to go UNDER, one had to cut their way THROUGH and the other had to go UNDER.  They were all through in less than two minutes.


----------



## pismoe

I like the Seperation Wall 'JoeB' and would have no problem with a separation wall the entire link of the southern border.


----------



## toastman

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> separation wall in ISRAEL works pretty well !! Walls work fine , might not exclude 100% but 95 plus % success is good enough and then you use other steps to exclude interlopers . I hear that the Saudis are building border walls as I type .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> except Israel is an apartheid state with daily terrorist incidents.  I'm not sure that's a role model anyone would want to follow.
Click to expand...


Except there is no actual apartheid inside Israel proper.


----------



## JoeB131

pismoe said:


> I like the Seperation Wall 'JoeB' and would have no problem with a separation wall the entire link of the southern border.



I'm sure you would.  That doesn't making the idea less ass-poundingly stupid.


----------



## JoeB131

toastman said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> separation wall in ISRAEL works pretty well !! Walls work fine , might not exclude 100% but 95 plus % success is good enough and then you use other steps to exclude interlopers . I hear that the Saudis are building border walls as I type .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> except Israel is an apartheid state with daily terrorist incidents.  I'm not sure that's a role model anyone would want to follow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except there is no actual apartheid inside Israel proper.
Click to expand...


Yup, keep telling yourself that. I know you really need to believe that.


----------



## toastman

JoeB131 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> separation wall in ISRAEL works pretty well !! Walls work fine , might not exclude 100% but 95 plus % success is good enough and then you use other steps to exclude interlopers . I hear that the Saudis are building border walls as I type .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> except Israel is an apartheid state with daily terrorist incidents.  I'm not sure that's a role model anyone would want to follow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except there is no actual apartheid inside Israel proper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup, keep telling yourself that. I know you really need to believe that.
Click to expand...


No, it's just a fact. Where in Israel proper is there apartheid if you think I'm wrong


----------



## Oldglory1

JoeB131 said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luddley's Left Wing Nutter Rule # 5446:
> 
> The fence isn't 100% effective so it's best to do nothing at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, it's not even 50 percent effective.
> 
> On Penn and Teller's B.S., they went to a home Depot and hired 6 illegals to build a section of fence just like the ones you guys want to build.  It was about a 20 foot section, and it took them most of the day to do it.
> 
> Then they broke them into three teams.  One team had to go UNDER, one had to cut their way THROUGH and the other had to go UNDER.  They were all through in less than two minutes.
Click to expand...

 
The double layered wall that was built along a sector of our border in
San Diego was very effective.   If it were built along the most porous sectors of our southern border it would cut illegal immigration way back.  A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol immensely.   There are tunnel sensors.   That wall can't be cut through.  Next lame excuse.........


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## pismoe

here you go JOEB , pics of separation wall in Israel !!  ---  pictures of israel s separation wall - Bing Images  ---  its a thing of beauty !!    Works very well from what I hear !!


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## JoeB131

pismoe said:


> here you go JOEB , pics of separation wall in Israel !! --- pictures of israel s separation wall - Bing Images --- its a thing of beauty !! Works very well from what I hear !!



Yesterday, a couple of Zionists got run down by an Arab.  Then some Zionist nearly got lynched by an Arab mob. 

not to mention the three Zionists who got kidnapped and killed earlier in the year. 

Frankly, I would never want our relationship with Mexico to become as dysfunctional as the Zionist Entity has with the Arab world.


----------



## JoeB131

Oldglory1 said:


> The double layered wall that was built along a sector of our border in
> San Diego was very effective. If it were built along the most porous sectors of our southern border it would cut illegal immigration way back. A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol immensely. There are tunnel sensors. That wall can't be cut through. Next lame excuse........



If it's so effective, why are illegals still getting in?


----------



## Oldglory1

JoeB131 said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The double layered wall that was built along a sector of our border in
> San Diego was very effective. If it were built along the most porous sectors of our southern border it would cut illegal immigration way back. A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol immensely. There are tunnel sensors. That wall can't be cut through. Next lame excuse........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's so effective, why are illegals still getting in?
Click to expand...


Because it was only built along 20 some miles of it so the illegals just moved to a different location to get in.   If it were built along the most porous areas of our southern border it would be much more difficult to get in.


----------



## pismoe

just good common sense Oldglory but the way these libs think if it isn't 100% effective then there is no reason to even TRY to exclude invaders  !!


----------



## pismoe

and how many pizza joint and bus bombings would there be if the separation wall wasn't there JOEB ?    Also the 3 kids were being stupid and were hitch hiking when they were kidnapped and then killed I think  .    As far as the car drivers running down Israeli pedestrians , who were the drivers and where did they come from ??    Were they residents of Israel or what , if you know ??


----------



## JoeB131

Oldglory1 said:


> Because it was only built along 20 some miles of it so the illegals just moved to a different location to get in. If it were built along the most porous areas of our southern border it would be much more difficult to get in.



No, they'd just find other ways to get around it.


----------



## JoeB131

pismoe said:


> and how many pizza joint and bus bombings would there be if the separation wall wasn't there JOEB ? Also the 3 kids were being stupid and were hitch hiking when they were kidnapped and then killed I think . As far as the car drivers running down Israeli pedestrians , who were the drivers and where did they come from ?? Were they residents of Israel or what , if you know ??



I don't know and I don't care.  

Your whacky idea is that we can just "Wall Those People Off" is what is crazy.  You clearly can't, not even in an Apartheid Police State.  

Now, there is a way to reduce the effects of illegal immigration.  Go after the people who employ them, to start with.  

But the crazy that you can just "build a fence" just shows the mean-spirited mentality of the Nativists.  Simple minds come up with simple solutions that don't work.


----------



## pismoe

ya gotta defeatist attitude there JOEB !!


----------



## pismoe

i'm ok with going after the people hiring illegals , also like the wall , tunneling sensors , military on the border , anything that can be done to stop or limit , reduce invaders is fine with me JOEB !!     After those steps there is deportation for the ones that make it , all steps are fine with me !!


----------



## pismoe

Israelis built a fine Seperation Wall , I hear that the Saudis are also building a wall [off topic comment]  .


----------



## jon_berzerk

*Why "the fence" won't work*

because it never gets built


----------



## JoeB131

pismoe said:


> ya gotta defeatist attitude there JOEB !!



No, I go for PRACTICAL solutions.  

A fence is meaningless because fences can be beaten.  All you got to do is cut a hole in one where people aren't. Probably even easier now with social media being able to track where the border patrol is on a given night. 

If you wanted the reduce the amount of illegals coming here, go after the mostly white rich people who hire them because they don't want to pay an American a fair wage. 

It's kind of like ants in your house.  Do you seal off every nook and crany an ant can fit through, or do you seal up all the sources of food the ant might be coming into your house to get?


----------



## SillyWabbit

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ya gotta defeatist attitude there JOEB !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I go for PRACTICAL solutions.
> 
> A fence is meaningless because fences can be beaten.  All you got to do is cut a hole in one where people aren't. Probably even easier now with social media being able to track where the border patrol is on a given night.
> 
> If you wanted the reduce the amount of illegals coming here, go after the mostly white rich people who hire them because they don't want to pay an American a fair wage.
> 
> It's kind of like ants in your house.  Do you seal off every nook and crany an ant can fit through, or do you seal up all the sources of food the ant might be coming into your house to get?
Click to expand...


I just try to eat food that ants don't like...


----------



## Luddly Neddite

pismoe said:


> i'm ok with going after the people hiring illegals , also like the wall , tunneling sensors , military on the border , anything that can be done to stop or limit , reduce invaders is fine with me JOEB !!     After those steps there is deportation for the ones that make it , all steps are fine with me !!



Well then, you must be thrilled with President Obama's actions.


----------



## Oldglory1

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and how many pizza joint and bus bombings would there be if the separation wall wasn't there JOEB ? Also the 3 kids were being stupid and were hitch hiking when they were kidnapped and then killed I think . As far as the car drivers running down Israeli pedestrians , who were the drivers and where did they come from ?? Were they residents of Israel or what , if you know ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know and I don't care.
> 
> Your whacky idea is that we can just "Wall Those People Off" is what is crazy.  You clearly can't, not even in an Apartheid Police State.
> 
> Now, there is a way to reduce the effects of illegal immigration.  Go after the people who employ them, to start with.
> 
> But the crazy that you can just "build a fence" just shows the mean-spirited mentality of the Nativists.  Simple minds come up with simple solutions that don't work.
Click to expand...


Mean spirited?  WTH?   And this has nothing to do with nativism either.  As we allow in over 1 million legal immigrants a year.  Every country in the world has immigration laws and should put their own citizens first.   Both the employers and the illegal aliens are equally guilty so we should go after both of them.   There are other incentives that bring them here besides jobs also.   We need to remove all of those incentives and arrest illegal aliens as they are detected and deport them as our laws state and yes crack down on the employers also.   

Illegals would have less viable entries with the double layered wall along the most porous areas of our border. The Border Patrol could then focus on those other areas.   Will it end illegal immigration altogether?   No, but it would curtail it immensely of which I am sure you and your pro-illegal buddies don't want.


----------



## Oldglory1

Luddly Neddite said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> i'm ok with going after the people hiring illegals , also like the wall , tunneling sensors , military on the border , anything that can be done to stop or limit , reduce invaders is fine with me JOEB !!     After those steps there is deportation for the ones that make it , all steps are fine with me !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well then, you must be thrilled with President Obama's actions.
Click to expand...


Really, why?  Obama won't deport any illegal aliens unless they are "convicted" criminals.   He has allowed hundreds of thousands of them a stay of deportation by EO.     He is constantly promising amnesty for the rest of them even if he has to use another EO to do so.   What's to  be thrilled about?


----------



## Oldglory1

JoeB131 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ya gotta defeatist attitude there JOEB !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I go for PRACTICAL solutions.
> 
> A fence is meaningless because fences can be beaten.  All you got to do is cut a hole in one where people aren't. Probably even easier now with social media being able to track where the border patrol is on a given night.
> 
> If you wanted the reduce the amount of illegals coming here, go after the mostly white rich people who hire them because they don't want to pay an American a fair wage.
> 
> It's kind of like ants in your house.  Do you seal off every nook and crany an ant can fit through, or do you seal up all the sources of food the ant might be coming into your house to get?
Click to expand...


The double layered wall that was erected on a sector of our San Diego border was impenetrable.   No one has suggested that we don't go after the employers who hire them but the illegals are equally guilty and should be dealt with when found and deported.    There are other incentives that draw them here besides jobs and we need to remove all of those incentives or they will continue to come here.

White employers?    Race card much, ?


----------



## pismoe

yeah , I was going to mention that but JOEB seems to be a lost cause .   Sounds like he dislikes white people and white people with money .


----------



## RKMBrown

Oldglory1 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luddley's Left Wing Nutter Rule # 5446:
> 
> The fence isn't 100% effective so it's best to do nothing at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, it's not even 50 percent effective.
> 
> On Penn and Teller's B.S., they went to a home Depot and hired 6 illegals to build a section of fence just like the ones you guys want to build.  It was about a 20 foot section, and it took them most of the day to do it.
> 
> Then they broke them into three teams.  One team had to go UNDER, one had to cut their way THROUGH and the other had to go UNDER.  They were all through in less than two minutes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The double layered wall that was built along a sector of our border in
> San Diego was very effective.   If it were built along the most porous sectors of our southern border it would cut illegal immigration way back.  A good physical barrier would help the Border Patrol immensely.   There are tunnel sensors.   That wall can't be cut through.  Next lame excuse.........
Click to expand...

ROFL isn't san diego the city with the most illegal immigrants in the country?


----------



## RKMBrown

Who here is willing to admit that they can't cross a fence?


----------



## JoeB131

Oldglory1 said:


> Mean spirited? WTH? And this has nothing to do with nativism either. As we allow in over 1 million legal immigrants a year. Every country in the world has immigration laws and should put their own citizens first. Both the employers and the illegal aliens are equally guilty so we should go after both of them. There are other incentives that bring them here besides jobs also. We need to remove all of those incentives and arrest illegal aliens as they are detected and deport them as our laws state and yes crack down on the employers also.
> 
> Illegals would have less viable entries with the double layered wall along the most porous areas of our border. The Border Patrol could then focus on those other areas. Will it end illegal immigration altogether? No, but it would curtail it immensely of which I am sure you and your pro-illegal buddies don't want.



It seems what you are admitting is the fence is a symbol more than a deterent.  

Maybe you should put a rider in there to read 'No Spics Allowed" in big letters all along the fence.  That would probably reflect the Nativist stupidity. 

Here's the ugly truth.  there are some jobs Americans won't do, not even in a recession.  That's why we have illegals.  

I actually think that LEGAL immigratin is a bigger problem because companies are happy to bring in Pradip to do your IT job.  The one you went to College for four years to get.  And they'll even lie to INS and tell them that there was just no way they could find a qualified American, ignore those 500 resumes sitting in our HR Department. 

Pedro sneaking across to do that toilet cleaning job you'd never want to do, not so much.


----------



## RKMBrown

JoeB131 said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mean spirited? WTH? And this has nothing to do with nativism either. As we allow in over 1 million legal immigrants a year. Every country in the world has immigration laws and should put their own citizens first. Both the employers and the illegal aliens are equally guilty so we should go after both of them. There are other incentives that bring them here besides jobs also. We need to remove all of those incentives and arrest illegal aliens as they are detected and deport them as our laws state and yes crack down on the employers also.
> 
> Illegals would have less viable entries with the double layered wall along the most porous areas of our border. The Border Patrol could then focus on those other areas. Will it end illegal immigration altogether? No, but it would curtail it immensely of which I am sure you and your pro-illegal buddies don't want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems what you are admitting is the fence is a symbol more than a deterent.
> 
> Maybe you should put a rider in there to read 'No Spics Allowed" in big letters all along the fence.  That would probably reflect the Nativist stupidity.
> 
> Here's the ugly truth.  there are some jobs Americans won't do, not even in a recession.  That's why we have illegals.
> 
> I actually think that LEGAL immigratin is a bigger problem because companies are happy to bring in Pradip to do your IT job.  The one you went to College for four years to get.  And they'll even lie to INS and tell them that there was just no way they could find a qualified American, ignore those 500 resumes sitting in our HR Department.
> 
> Pedro sneaking across to do that toilet cleaning job you'd never want to do, not so much.
Click to expand...

What he said ^


----------



## Vandalshandle

Oldglory1 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> i'm ok with going after the people hiring illegals , also like the wall , tunneling sensors , military on the border , anything that can be done to stop or limit , reduce invaders is fine with me JOEB !!     After those steps there is deportation for the ones that make it , all steps are fine with me !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well then, you must be thrilled with President Obama's actions.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really, why?  Obama won't deport any illegal aliens unless they are "convicted" criminals.   He has allowed hundreds of thousands of them a stay of deportation by EO.     He is constantly promising amnesty for the rest of them even if he has to use another EO to do so.   What's to  be thrilled about?
Click to expand...


Totally false. But, I never get tired of posting the truth, here:


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/u...s-us-cracks-down-on-border-crossers.html?_r=0


----------



## Oldglory1

First off, millions of illegal were already here before they erected the double layered wall on a small portion of the San Diego border.  It was an experiment to see if it would work and it did.  Illegal aliens had to move to more dangerous areas to cross.  It was approved by congress for 700 miles on the border but was never funded.  Second, there are no jobs that an American won't do for a fair wage.

Charges of nativism.....please back up your claims since we allow in 1 million illegal aliens a year and most of them ARE Mexicans and other Latinos.   I simply hate these anti-American traitors that don't give a flip about their fellow citizens but then maybe we are debating with illegal aliens in the first place or those who hire them for profit or have ethnic ties to illegal aliens.    Which anti-American traitor agenda fits in here?


----------



## JoeB131

Oldglory1 said:


> First off, millions of illegal were already here before they erected the double layered wall on a small portion of the San Diego border. It was an experiment to see if it would work and it did. Illegal aliens had to move to more dangerous areas to cross. It was approved by congress for 700 miles on the border but was never funded. Second, there are no jobs that an American won't do for a fair wage.



Come on, guy, you can't get the 1%ers to pay a fair wage for jobs that take fucking skill and education. 

You really think they are going to pay a fair wage to a toilet cleaner?


----------



## Oldglory1

JoeB131 said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> First off, millions of illegal were already here before they erected the double layered wall on a small portion of the San Diego border. It was an experiment to see if it would work and it did. Illegal aliens had to move to more dangerous areas to cross. It was approved by congress for 700 miles on the border but was never funded. Second, there are no jobs that an American won't do for a fair wage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on, guy, you can't get the 1%ers to pay a fair wage for jobs that take fucking skill and education.
> 
> You really think they are going to pay a fair wage to a toilet cleaner?
Click to expand...


If illegal aliens were gone out of the picture then yes they would have to or go out of business.


----------



## pismoe

yep , I see it the same way  Oldglory , they'd either pay to have that toilet cleaned or lettuce picked or they'd invent machines to clean toilets and pick lettuce .   Or they'd have dirty toilets and no lettuce !!


----------



## pismoe

and concerning the Israeli Seperation Wall and the new Car Intifada that's been mentioned .    Maybe its time to exclude All cars from Arab areas , I don't know .   ---   The Car Intifada FrontPage Magazine  ---


----------



## Taz

Because it has no minefield.


----------

