# The US started the Korean war??



## xomputer (Jun 25, 2012)

Norh Korea is bullshitting once again.
The US started the Korean war??
Korean War started in 1950 because of North Korea's ambush invasion, which later developed into a 3 year and 2 months long full-scale war between UN forces that supported South Korea, and the Chinese forces, divided into the democratic camp, and the communist camp, that supported North Korea.
North Korea's provocation resulted in countless casualties from US and Korea, trying to defend liberty and peace. As a result for the sacrifices of the war heroes, Korea exists as it is known to the day.
Everybody knows the truth. I don't understand why North Korea is talking nonsense. Seems like Kim Jong Un gets constipation, if he is not denounced for a day.


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## hjmick (Jun 25, 2012)

North Korea telling tales?

Shocking.


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## MaryL (Jun 29, 2012)

What do you think, xopmputer? Kim jong II has nuclear weapons. He can't feed the poor  starving in  the north. We all KNOW what is going on here .Tell us what YOU think.


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## demiurge (Jul 1, 2012)

Vietnam War?   Sure.  

Korean?  That's some bubbly insanity burbling to the top there.


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

xomputer said:


> Norh Korea is bullshitting once again.
> The US started the Korean war??
> Korean War started in 1950 because of North Korea's ambush invasion, which later developed into a 3 year and 2 months long full-scale war between UN forces that supported South Korea, and the Chinese forces, divided into the democratic camp, and the communist camp, that supported North Korea.
> North Korea's provocation resulted in countless casualties from US and Korea, trying to defend liberty and peace. As a result for the sacrifices of the war heroes, Korea exists as it is known to the day.
> Everybody knows the truth. I don't understand why North Korea is talking nonsense. Seems like Kim Jong Un gets constipation, if he is not denounced for a day.


In August 1945 Japan formally turned over authority in Korea to the Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence led by Lyuh Woon-hyung. 

When US forces under General Reed Hodge arrived to accept Japan's surrender, he ordered all Japanese officials to remain at their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and eventually banned all public references to Lyuh's organization.

"Yuh Woon-Hyung (May 25, 1886 &#8211; July 19, 1947) was a Korean politician who argued that *Korean independence was essential to world peace*, and a reunification activist who struggled for the independent reunification of Korea since its national division in 1945.

"His pen-name was Mongyang (&#47805;&#50577;; &#22818;&#38525, the Chinese characters for '*dream" and "light*.'

"He is rare among politicians in modern Korean history in that he is revered in both South and North Korea."

Had the US not intervened, Korea would have united in 1945, and there would've been no need for the Korean War or the profit$ it generated.


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## Sallow (Jul 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> xomputer said:
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Bullshit.


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

About 4 million people died for bullshit?

"At the Potsdam Conference (July&#8211;August 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea&#8212;without consulting the Koreans&#8212;in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[44][45][46][47]

"On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[30] Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea as head of the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 1945&#8211;48).[48] He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their *Korean police collaborators*.[13] 

"*The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived People's Republic of Korea (PRK) because he suspected it was communist.* These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Korea_divided_.281945.E2.80.931949.29


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## demiurge (Jul 1, 2012)

it was far more than just the PRK being communists - indeed, they become the basis of the People's Workers Party in North Korea.  They were also the designated group designated by the Japanese to handle the change in rulership, which needless to say was not the Japanese occupiers right at the time.    

You could far more easily make the case that the Soviet Union caused the split, and they certainly were behind the abrogation of free elecrtions and the following invasion.   This one the entire UN was behind the US.


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## Unkotare (Jul 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Had the US not intervened, Korea would have united in 1945.




You really need to think about that one again.


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

demiurge said:


> it was far more than just the PRK being communists - indeed, they become the basis of the People's Workers Party in North Korea.  They were also the designated group designated by the Japanese to handle the change in rulership, which needless to say was not the Japanese occupiers right at the time.
> 
> You could far more easily make the case that the Soviet Union caused the split, and they certainly were behind the abrogation of free elecrtions and the following invasion.   This one the entire UN was behind the US.


Soviet forces invaded Korea in August of '45, advancing to the 38th parallel by August 10th.
At that time they agreed to a US proposal to stop their advance instead of taking the entire peninsula.

"The Red Army handed power over to the Korean Workers&#8217; Party,(in the north) headed by Kim Il-sung, a legendary guerrilla leader who had fought the Japanese in Manchuria (where there is a large ethnic Korean population)."

Contrast that polcy with US reliance in the south with a majority of big Korean businessmen and landowners who collaborated with Japanese colonial rule. Those "free elections" you mentioned took place after USAMGIK outlawed the PRK Revolutionary Government and PRK Peoples Committees on December 12, 1945 and after a declaration of martial law.

Basic Facts Good People Should Know » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> georgephillip said:
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One of us definitely needs A Pop Quiz on Korea:

"4. At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, U.S. President Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin discussed the postwar future of Korea. Stalin advocated independence as soon as possible. Roosevelt

    a. agreed to immediate independence

* b. advocated a trusteeship of 20-30 years, citing the positive example of U.S. rule in the Philippines*

    c. suggested Korea remain a part of the Japanese Empire, to be occupied by Allied forces."


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## Unkotare (Jul 1, 2012)

Your juvenile, simplistic reading of history is all too clearly motivated by your great disappointment that the entire Korean penninsula is not a communist hell hole today. A vibrant, dynamic, prosperous South Korea a stone's throw away from the most backward, repressive, inhumane, failed state on earth directly repudiates your asinine political dreams.


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Your juvenile, simplistic reading of history is all too clearly motivated by your great disappointment that the entire Korean penninsula is not a communist hell hole today. A vibrant, dynamic, prosperous South Korea a stone's throw away from the most backward, repressive, inhumane, failed state on earth directly repudiates your asinine political dreams.


*Did you even bother to read my link?*

"After the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5, Japan acquired control over Korea, annexing it formally in 1910. 

"In 1905 Japanese Prime Minister Katsura Tar? met secretly with U.S. Secretary of War William Howard Taft, producing the Taft-Katsura Agreement in which *the U.S. recognized Japan&#8217;s interests in Korea*. 

"What did the U.S. receive in return?

    a. Japanese agreement to limit emigration to the U.S.

*b. Japanese recognition of U.S. colonial rule over the Philippines.*

    c. Japan&#8217;s renunciation to all claims to the Hawai&#8217;ian Islands

A Pop Quiz on Korea » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

You have no way of knowing if the entire peninsula would be as prosperous as South Korea is today if Truman had displayed the same commitment to Korean independence that Stalin did in 1945.

I'm sure Wall Street appreciates your ignorance.


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## Unkotare (Jul 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> You have no way of knowing if the entire peninsula would be as prosperous as South Korea is today if Truman had displayed the same commitment to Korean independence that Stalin did in 1945.





But you dream/wish/fantasize that it would be the communist paradise you think it should be if only we had abandoned the South and let the dominoes roll on to Japan, right comrade?


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## Sallow (Jul 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> About 4 million people died for bullshit?
> 
> "At the Potsdam Conference (JulyAugust 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Koreawithout consulting the Koreansin contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[44][45][46][47]
> 
> ...



You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Pick up a book on Korean History.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 1, 2012)

demiurge said:


> Vietnam War?   Sure.
> 
> Korean?  That's some bubbly insanity burbling to the top there.



We didn't start the Vietnam War, the Vi&#7879;t Minh did when they rose up against the French, it was a french colony.  Unfortunately we honored a treaty to come to the France's aid and unfortunately ended up stuck in what became an American war when the French pulled out.  That's not to say we weren't complicit in creating the situation for our involvement, our "containment" policy at the time saw to that.


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> georgephillip said:
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> > You have no way of knowing if the entire peninsula would be as prosperous as South Korea is today if Truman had displayed the same commitment to Korean independence that Stalin did in 1945.
> ...


*How do you know a majority of Koreans would have chosen communism?*

"In anticipation of Japan&#8217;s defeat in the Second World War, Yuh organized in 1944 the Korean Restoration Brotherhood (&#51312;&#49440;&#44148;&#44397;&#46041;&#47609;, Joseon Geon-guk Dongmaeng), a nationwide underground organization. 

"When Japan finally surrendered to the Allies on August 15, 1945 and Deputy Governor General Abe transferred his government to Yuh in exchange for safeguard of Japanese in Korea, it enabled him to promptly form the Committee for Preparation of Korean Independence (&#51312;&#49440; &#44148;&#44397; &#51456;&#48708; &#50948;&#50896;&#54924;, Joseon Geon-guk Junbi Wiwonhoe). 

"In September 1945, Yuh proclaimed the establishment of the Korean People's Republic and became its vice-premier. In October, *he stepped down under pressure from the United States Military Government*, and organized the People's Party of Korea, becoming its chairman."

"For the following months of the anti-trusteeship movement and other political changes, Yuh took a line of action in concert with the communists.

"When a movement to unify the political left and the political right arose in May 1946, Lyuh represented the center-left and occupied a position on the center between the left and the right.

"Yuh&#8217;s political stance was, however, attacked by both the extreme right and the extreme left, and his efforts to pursue a centrist position was made increasingly untenable by the political realities of the time. 

"On July 19, 1947, Yuh was assassinated in Seoul by a 19-year-old man named Han Chigeun, a recent refugee from North Korea and an active member of a nationalist right-wing group. Yuh's death was widely mourned."

Maybe you can explain the moral calculus that allowed a US general to deny millions of Koreans an opportunity to choose their own form of government?

Yuh Woon-Hyung - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Sallow said:


> georgephillip said:
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*Amaze me (some more) with your fucking ignorance:*

"The Korean peninsula, peopled by one of the worlds most homogeneous ethnic groups, and *united from the seventh century through 1945*, is now divided into two nations *due primarily to the actions of the Truman administration and the U.S. military*. *

"This is something upon which South and North Koreans agree*. 

"The facts are laid out well by historian Bruce Cumings in his magisterial two-volume work, The Origins of the Korean War." 

Basic Facts Good People Should Know » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## Unkotare (Jul 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Unkotare said:
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LOL! Do you really think that's how communists work? You can't be that naive.


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Ringel05 said:


> demiurge said:
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> > Vietnam War?   Sure.
> ...


*Chomsky might argue the French started that war:*

"The direct U.S. attack against South Vietnam followed our support for the French attempt to reconquer their former colony, our disruption of the 1954 'peace process,' and a terrorist war against the South Vietnamese population. 

"This terror had already left some 75,000 dead while evoking domestic resistance, supported from the northern half of the country after 1959, that threatened to bring down the regime that the U.S. had established. 

"In the following years, the U.S. continued to resist every attempt at peaceful settlement, and in 1964 began to plan the ground invasion of South Vietnam. 

"The land assault took place in early 1965, accompanied by the bombing of North Vietnam and an intensification of the bombing of the south, at triple the level of the more publicized bombing of the north. *The U.S. also extended the war to Laos and Cambodia*." 

Invasion Newspeak: U.S. & USSR, by Noam Chomsky

It seems to me the US invasions and occupations of Korea and Vietnam were just more "busine$$ a$ u$ual" for "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world:"


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## Unkotare (Jul 1, 2012)

Chomsky? Well, you just completed your portrait...


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> georgephillip said:
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How many times have communists forcibly dissolved your government?

"The People's Republic of Korea (PRK) was a short-lived provisional government that was organized with the aim to take over control of Korea shortly after the Surrender of the Empire of Japan at the end of World War II. 

"It operated as the government in late August and early September 1945 *until the United States Army Military Government in Korea was established by the United States of America.* After that it operated unofficially, and in opposition to the United States Military Government, until it was forcibly dissolved in January 1946..."

"The program of the PRK was presented in its September 14 twenty-seven point program. 

"The program included: 'the confiscation without compensation of lands held by the Japanese and collaborators; free distribution of that land to the peasants; rent limits on the nonredistributed land; nationalization of such major industries as mining, transportation, banking, and communication; state supervision of small and mid-sized companies; &#8230;*guaranteed basic human rights and freedoms*, including those of speech, press, assembly, and faith; universal suffrage to adults over the age of eighteen; equality for women; labor law reforms including an eight-hour day, a minimum wage, and prohibition of child labor; and '*establishment of close relations with the United States, USSR, England, and China*, and *positive opposition to any foreign influences interfering with the domestic affairs of the state.*'"

Why do you suppose a single US general felt he was qualified to decide what was best for millions of Koreans?

White Pride?

People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Unkotare (Jul 1, 2012)

Communist take over (and the ensuing oppression that follows) on a national scale always involves murderous violence. Hell, that's part of the idea.


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Chomsky? Well, you just completed your portrait...


*Chomsky is still a work in progress*

"In early 1969, he delivered the John Locke Lectures at Oxford University; in January 1970, the Bertrand Russell Memorial Lecture at University of Cambridge; in 1972, the Nehru Memorial Lecture in New Delhi; in 1977, the Huizinga Lecture in Leiden; in 1988 the Massey Lectures at the University of Toronto, titled '*Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies*'; in 1997, The Davie Memorial Lecture on Academic Freedom in Cape Town,[120] and many others.[121]

"Chomsky has received many honorary degrees from universities around the world, including from the following:

    "University of London
    University of Chicago
    Loyola University of Chicago
    Swarthmore College
    University of Delhi
    Bard College
    University of Massachusetts Amherst
    University of Pennsylvania
    Georgetown University
    Amherst College
    University of Cambridge
    University of Colorado[122]
    University of Buenos Aires
    McGill University
    Rovira i Virgili University
    Columbia University
    Villanova University
    University of Connecticut
    University of Maine
    Scuola Normale Superiore
    University of Western Ontario
    University of Toronto
    Harvard University
    Universidad de Chile
    University of Bologna
    Universidad de La Frontera
    University of Calcutta
    Universidad Nacional de Colombia
    Vrije Universiteit Brussel
    Santo Domingo Institute of Technology
    Uppsala University
    University of Athens
    University of Cyprus
    Central Connecticut State University
    National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM)
    Peking University[123]
    National Tsing Hua University [124]

"He is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the National Academy of Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society. In addition, he is a member of other professional and learned societies in the United States and abroad, and is a recipient of the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association, the Kyoto Prize in Basic Sciences, the Helmholtz Medal, the Dorothy Eldridge Peacemaker Award, the 1999 Benjamin Franklin Medal in Computer and Cognitive Science, and others.[125] He is twice winner of The Orwell Award, granted by The National Council of Teachers of English for '*Distinguished Contributions to Honesty and Clarity in Public Language*' (in 1987 and 1989).[126]

"He is a member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts in Department of Social Sciences.[127]

"In 2005, Chomsky received an honorary fellowship from the Literary and Historical Society.[128] In 2007, Chomsky received The Uppsala University (Sweden) Honorary Doctor's degree in commemoration of Carolus Linnaeus.[129] In February 2008, he received the President's Medal from the Literary and Debating Society of the National University of Ireland, Galway.[130] Since 2009 he is an honorary member of IAPTI.[131]

"In 2010, Chomsky received the Erich Fromm Prize in Stuttgart, Germany.[132] In April 2010, Chomsky became the third scholar to receive the University of Wisconsin's A.E. Havens Center's Award for Lifetime Contribution to Critical Scholarship.[133]

"*Chomsky has an Erd&#337;s number of four*.[134]

"Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. He reacted, saying "I don't pay a lot of attention to polls".[135] In a list compiled by the magazine New Statesman in 2006, he was voted seventh in the list of 'Heroes of our time'.[136]

"Actor Viggo Mortensen with avant-garde guitarist Buckethead dedicated their 2006 album, called Pandemoniumfromamerica, to Chomsky.[137]

"On January 22, 2010, a special honorary concert for Chomsky was given at Kresge Auditorium at MIT.[138][139] The concert, attended by Chomsky and dozens of his family and friends, featured music composed by Edward Manukyan and speeches by Chomsky's colleagues, including David Pesetsky of MIT and Gennaro Chierchia, head of the linguistics department at Harvard University.

"In June 2011, Chomsky was awarded the Sydney Peace Prize, which cited his '*unfailing courage, critical analysis of power and promotion of human rights*'.[140]

"In 2011, Chomsky was inducted into IEEE Intelligent Systems' AI's Hall of Fame for the "significant contributions to the field of AI..."

Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## georgephillip (Jul 1, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Communist take over (and the ensuing oppression that follows) on a national scale always involves murderous violence. Hell, that's part of the idea.


Have you noticed any "murderous violence" or "ensuing oppression" in US History?
How about chattel slavery?
What ever fate a majority of Koreans might have chosen in 1945, it was their decision to make, and not one the US had any moral authority for deciding on their behalf.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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The argument can be made for either the French or the Viet Minh starting the war, as for your "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" comment...... pure, unadulterated bull shit that has no basis in an objective, informed historical context.  This is evident by your reliance on Chomsky for your information, who is anything but objective or historically knowledgeable.


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## Unkotare (Jul 1, 2012)

Chomsky is a far-looney-tunes-left crank, and now we know, so are you. 


If you seriously believe in some equivalence between US history - for all our flaws - and the death and destruction wrought at the hands of Mao, Stalin, Pol-pot, etc. then you are hopeless. Truly hopeless.

You've proven yourself beneath serious consideration. No wonder you've got all those red things - they fit you like a glove.


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

Ringel05 said:


> georgephillip said:
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Who do you turn to for an "objective, informed, historical context" of US imperialism since 1945?
Have you ever heard of "The Grand Area?"
George F. Kennan??

At least 20,000,000 human beings have been maimed, murdered, displaced, or incarcerated by the greatest purveyor of violence in the world during that time period. 

Can you name another country that has sent its military thousands of miles from its homeland to $laughter on that $cale?

*Chomsky can.*


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## Sallow (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> About 4 million people died for bullshit?
> 
> "At the Potsdam Conference (JulyAugust 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Koreawithout consulting the Koreansin contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[44][45][46][47]
> 
> ...



You completely ignore Korean history..which, demonstrates, that is the Koreans themselves that invite foreign powers in to fight adversaries.

In any case..South Korea is a shining example of an American success story. They've retained their own culture..and are extremely prosperous.


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Chomsky is a far-looney-tunes-left crank, and now we know, so are you.
> 
> 
> If you seriously believe in some equivalence between US history - for all our flaws - and the death and destruction wrought at the hands of Mao, Stalin, Pol-pot, etc. then you are hopeless. Truly hopeless.
> ...


You should stop "thinking" like a slave and Get Crazy

"Native Americans&#8217; resistance to the westward expansion of Europeans took two forms. 

"One was violence. 

"The other was accommodation. 

"Neither worked. 

"Their land was stolen, their communities were decimated, their women and children were gunned down and the environment was ravaged. *There was no legal recourse*. There was no justice. 

"There never is for the oppressed. 

"And as we face similar forces of predatory, unchecked corporate power intent on ruthless exploitation and stripping us of legal and physical protection, we must confront how we will respond."

You've made it very clear how you will respond.
Like a gutless corporate tool...


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## demiurge (Jul 2, 2012)

Ringel05 said:


> demiurge said:
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I was referring to the Gulf of Tonkin incident.  US forces were involved in Vietnam much earlier, obviously, but the congressional authorization of force wasn't official until after that incident.   While GeorgePhillip is overall full of shit, its pretty widely known now that at least part of the attack against the Maddox was invented for political reasons - justification for expansion of the ground war.    This changed a small us involvement into the major war that we know now, and yes, the US manufactured much of the pretext for that expansion.


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

Sallow said:


> georgephillip said:
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*Which version of Korean history are you ignoring?*

"In 1866 the U.S. merchant ship General Sherman defied the laws of Korea (then pursuing a policy of strict isolation) by entering Korean waters, and sailing up the Taedong River towards Pyongyang to demand trade. What happened to the ship?

*a. It was attacked by local people and soldiers, burned, and sunk, with the loss of its entire crew*.

    b. Its crew was politely told that since Korea was a satrapy of China all negotiations concerning commerce had to take place via Beijing.

    c. It was welcomed, and Korean officials began discussing with the Americans a Treaty of Amity and Commerce.

A Pop Quiz on Korea » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## Sallow (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Unkotare said:
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> > Chomsky is a far-looney-tunes-left crank, and now we know, so are you.
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Your problem here is you think one size fits all.

What happened in Korea is not what happen to the American Indians.

In fact..it should be a template for the US when it actually does good work.

Like in Japan, Germany, Spain and Italy.

South Korea is a jewel and a shining example of just what America can do in terms of fostering a new nation to sovereignty.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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Sorry, not interested in your, or his "agenda" based on twisted facts and partial truths, this agenda driven revisionist crap has no place in academia, it belongs in the same categories of conspiracy theory and propaganda.  
Who do I turn to?  Piers Brandon, Matthew Cooper, Alan Clark, Stephan E. Ambrose, James Lucas, Christopher Browning, Martin Van Creveld, Lewis Henry Morgan, Eric Wolf, to name a very few, you know, accredited, recognized and in some instances acclaimed historians, historical sociologists and cultural anthropologists.


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## demiurge (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Soviet forces invaded Korea in August of '45, advancing to the 38th parallel by August 10th.
> At that time they agreed to a US proposal to stop their advance instead of taking the entire peninsula.
> 
> "The Red Army handed power over to the Korean Workers&#8217; Party,(in the north) headed by Kim Il-sung, a legendary guerrilla leader who had fought the Japanese in Manchuria (where there is a large ethnic Korean population)."



Right.  They handed power over to 'Great Leader.' 

Yes, the Communist turned power over to Kim Il Sung, the insane dictator  of North Korea that turned that part of the peninsula into the amazing hell hole that it is today.   Large numbers purges and disappearances, constant political indoctrination, destruction of civil liberties, overwhelming censorship - if there's one place where Orwell's dystopia came true, it was North Korea.    The society there is barely able to feed itself.  

Tens of thousands of South Koreans have been swallowed up by his policy of impressment and kidnapping as well.    

Though I hear he had good taste in Hollywood movies, so there is that.



> Contrast that polcy with US reliance in the south with a majority of big Korean businessmen and landowners who collaborated with Japanese colonial rule. Those "free elections" you mentioned took place after USAMGIK outlawed the PRK Revolutionary Government and PRK Peoples Committees on December 12, 1945 and after a declaration of martial law.



You mean the creation of the thriving democracy in South Korea?   Yes, lets contrast that, shall we?   One of the Young Dragons with a great standard of living, freedoms and human rights, vs one of the most dysfunctional societies with the worse record of human rights in the world.

You didn't really think about that one when you posted it, did you?  LOL.


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## demiurge (Jul 2, 2012)

Funny that Chomsky would agree with Kim Il Jung.

But then, he was famously known for downplaying the massive deaths in Cambodia, claiming that journalists who were reporting on the fact were lying.  

http://jim.com/chomsdis.htm

He also wants the end of Israel, and has provided the forward to a book known for holocaust denial.  Odd for a jew?   Why yes.   But then, the person making that claim is none other than Alan Dershowitz.
http://tech.mit.edu/V122/N25/col25dersh.25c.html

He's an ideologue, and doesn't let facts get in the way of his foreign policy analysis.


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

Sallow said:


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What happened in North Korea between June, 1950 and July 1953 was very similar to what happened to Native Americans, civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden, and "communists" in Italy and Greece after the WWII.

Wiki estimates civilian casualties in Korea at between 2-3 million.

Other sources claim 3 million deaths in North Korea alone, thanks primarily to the *for-profit* heroism of the USAF.

US bombers turned Korean cities and villages into rubble, then turned the rubble into pebbles, finally turning pebbles into dust, along with killing one of every three human beings living north of the 38th parallel when the conflict began.

Maybe the *profit margin* on every US bomb explains this example of US "good work."
Do you think the US investor class got their money's worth?


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

Ringel05 said:


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Do you believe in the existence of the Council on Foreign Relations and its Grand Area?

"When (WWII) war broke out, the Council (on Foreign Relations) began a 'strictly confidential' project called the *War and Peace Studies*, in which top CFR members collaborated with the US State Department in determining US policy, *and the project was entirely financed by the Rockefeller Foundation*.[12] 

"The War and Peace Studies project had come up with a number of initiatives for the post-War world. One of the most important objectives it laid out was the identification of what areas of the world *America would need to control* in order to facilitate strong economic growth. *This came to be known as the 'Grand Area*,' and it included:

"Latin America, Europe, the colonies of the British Empire, and all of Southeast Asia. Southeast Asia was necessary as a source of raw materials for Great Britain and Japan and as a consumer of Japanese products. 

"The American national interest was then defined in terms of the integration and defense of the Grand Area, which led to plans for the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, and the World Bank and eventually to *the decision to defend Vietnam* from a Communist takeover at all costs.[13]"

The Council on Foreign Relations and the


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## Ringel05 (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Yeah?  So?


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

demiurge said:


> georgephillip said:
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> > Soviet forces invaded Korea in August of '45, advancing to the 38th parallel by August 10th.
> ...


Kim had a lot of help from the USAF in creating "the hell-hole" of North Korea. According to some accounts there were nine million Koreans living north of the 38th parallel in June of 1950. When the war ended one out of three was dead. 

US aircraft dropping for-profit bombs leveled every city, village, and town, then came back and turned the rubble into dust. There's no way to defend the monster Kim became; however, you can't ignore the devastation of his country by the USA that encouraged his authoritarianism.

It's also useful the note Kim's resistance to the Japanese occupation and contrast that with the authoritarian the US selected to rule in the south:

"Kim was appointed commander of the 6th division in 1937, *at the age of 24*, controlling a few hundred men in a group that came to be known as 'Kim Il Sung&#8217;s division.' It was while he was in command of this division that he executed a raid on Poch&#8217;onbo, on 4 June. 

"Although Kim&#8217;s division only captured a small Japanese-held town just across the Korean border for a few hours, it was nonetheless considered a military success at this time, when the guerrilla units had experienced difficulty in capturing any enemy territory." 

Kim Il-sung - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What contributions to Korean independence did Syngman Rhee make around a decade before Kim was risking his life? 

"In 1919, all of the major pro-independence factions formed the Provisional Government of the Republic of Korea in Shanghai. Rhee was elected the president, a post he held for six years. In 1925 he was removed from office following his impeachment by the Provisional Assembly for misuse of his authority&#8212; *an event that would foreshadow his later political career*."

Syngman Rhee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You apparently didn't think about where that "thriving democracy" in South Korea got its start.

"In December 1945, Korea was administered by a United States&#8211;Soviet Union Joint Commission, as agreed at the Moscow Conference (1945). *The Koreans were excluded from the talks.* The commission decided the country would become independent after a five-year trusteeship action facilitated by each régime sharing its sponsor's ideology.[49][50] 

"*The Korean populace revolted*; in the south, some protested, and some rose in arms;[22] to contain them, the USAMGIK banned strikes on 8 December 1945 and outlawed the PRK Revolutionary Government and the PRK People's Committees on 12 December 1945."

Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Had the US not intervened in Korean reunification efforts in late 1945 it's highly possible Lyuh Woon-hyung and the KPR would have found true independence without the need for war or any other authoritarian/capitalistic/communistic measures.

*Hence US actions did, in fact, lead directly to the Korean War.*


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## Ringel05 (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> demiurge said:
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Talk about twisting and omitting facts to promote one's personal propaganda, holy shit!!!!
You are one fucked up individual.  Dayamn!!


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

Ringel05 said:


> georgephillip said:
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So yeah, the decision to defend Vietnam from the overwhelming majority of its citizens resulted in the murder, maiming, displacement, and incarceration of millions of Vietnamese. Only a brain-dead super-bitch like you could miss that.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Yup, it's all America's fault, no one else had anything to do with it, no one else was involved and no one else did anything that could have been done differently.      
And talk about pulling shit out of one's ass:


> defend Vietnam from the overwhelming majority


  Yeah, you have legitimate, non-interpreted, verifiable evidence of this..........?  Sure ya do.........


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

*How likely is it a majority of Vietnamese would have voted against Ho Chi Minh in 1954?*

"The Battle of Dien Bien Phu and the 1954 Geneva Accords had put an end to the French war to restore their colonial rule in Indochina. The Accords promised to reunite the country through democratic elections. 

"*Since it seemed clear that the party of Ho Chi Minh would win those elections*, the Eisenhower administration refused to allow them to be held, and installed an unpopular anti-communist government in South Vietnam, which by 1962 was totally discredited and risked collapsing in the face of an internal insurrection."

Vol 19 number 10 Text Version


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## Ringel05 (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *How likely is it a majority of Vietnamese would have voted against Ho Chi Minh in 1954?*
> 
> "The Battle of Dien Bien Phu and the 1954 Geneva Accords had put an end to the French war to restore their colonial rule in Indochina. The Accords promised to reunite the country through democratic elections.
> 
> ...



What part of "non-interpreted" don't you understand?  Nothing else was going on between other players in the game?  Still omitting pertinent information I see.


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## georgephillip (Jul 2, 2012)

Ringel05 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *How likely is it a majority of Vietnamese would have voted against Ho Chi Minh in 1954?*
> ...


Pertinent information you seem incapable of revealing.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 2, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Ringel05 said:
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It's called the whole story, you posted a link that provides some of the other data and there's even more out there though much of it is in book form.  Do you require a syllabus with reading references or are you open minded and and intelligent enough to locate as many other sources as possible?  Not sure why I asked the latter, so far you've shown no indication of either, why should I expect any different.


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## georgephillip (Jul 3, 2012)

How are you defining "non-interpreted?"


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## georgephillip (Jul 4, 2012)

demiurge said:


> Funny that Chomsky would agree with Kim Il Jung.
> 
> But then, he was famously known for downplaying the massive deaths in Cambodia, claiming that journalists who were reporting on the fact were lying.
> 
> ...


Funnier how Chomsky and Kim saw the obvious corporate corruption behind US policies toward South Korea and South Vietnam: 

"The strength and resilience of the Vietnamese revolution reside not in the genes of the Vietnamese, *but in their culture and social structure*. If these can be destroyed and an artificial consumer society of atomized individuals erected in their stead, the United States will have achieved its victory. As elsewhere in East Asia, there is an (uneasy) alliance between the United States and Japan to this end.

"The editor of the Far Eastern Economic Review puts it as follows:

    "'In 1968 the farsighted premier of North Vietnam, Pham Van Dong, reportedly told a visitor that his country, having successfully fought the Chinese, the Japanese, the French and the Americans, would next have to fight the Japanese. 

"'The population of the South,' he said, 'had been driven by war into the cities and were there becoming *corrupted by the desire for consumer goods*, for Sony transistors and Honda motorcycles. 

"'Only Japan could supply such urban markets in Asia. Kim Il Sung of North Korea also saw the southern half of the Korean peninsula *falling under Japanese economic domination*.'"

Mayday: The Case for Civil Disobedience, by Noam Chomsky

Noam was never known for "downplaying" the murders of Pol Pot,
He was known for being suspicious of the numbers when they were first reported.
He also made sure Americans knew of the role their government's murderous bombing campaign played in bringing a monster like Pol Pot to power.

As far as Israel in concerned, Chomsky is well aware of how one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine imposed a Jewish state by force of arms on their neighbors in 1948.

Which makes you short on facts and long on ideology.


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