# Trouble In Turkey



## Annie (Jul 29, 2011)

Turkey's top military leader resign - latimes.com



> Turkey's top military leaders resign en masse
> The resignations of much of Turkey's military leadership is seen as a new sign of tension between the old guard of the armed forces and a rising Muslim political elite led by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The departures include the army's chief of general staff, Gen. Isik Kosaner, and the officers heading the Turkish ground forces, navy and air force.
> 
> By Borzou Daragahi
> ...


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

Just like General McCrystal the administration has the right to decide  whom it wants to work with.

Current Generals have been sent to retirement and it has been published in Official Gazette already.

New General Chief of Staff with President Gül:


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## Andaluz (Jul 29, 2011)

It does look as if the AK Partisi is shoring up it's control of all the estates of the Turkish Republic. It would appear to be another step along the road to dismantling the Atatürkist secular state. I don't think this can be great news for anyone.


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

Andaluz said:


> I don't think this can be great news for anyone.



The AK Parti is this region's biggest People's movement with 50% election share.
We don't need paternalism from outside in defining what's good and what's not good for us.
We do exactly as we see fit.
Be it restructuring our Army or other internal decisions.


Men of the People's


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## Ringel05 (Jul 29, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Andaluz said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this can be great news for anyone.
> ...



I think you missed the point.  Nah, I'm positive you missed the point. 
Oh and since when was 50% representative of 100%, I must have missed that in math class.


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## Trajan (Jul 29, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Just like General McCrystal the administration has the right to decide  whom it wants to work with.
> 
> Current Generals have been sent to retirement and it has been published in Official Gazette already.
> 
> New General Chief of Staff with President Gül:



so they didn't resign? 

and that photo speaks louldy look at the postures of Gul and the general...wagging his finger....hummmm


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

EU Parliament's Turkey rapporteur says, that the military resignations have made Turkey more democratic as military must command under civilian rule.

Gündem AP: Türkiye demokratik yolda ilerliyor ZAMAN
stifalara ilgin tepki - GAZETEVATAN.COM


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

Trajan said:


> so they didn't resign?
> 
> and that photo speaks louldy look at the postures of Gul and the general...wagging his finger....hummmm



No, they didn't resign because of their pension payments.
They were sent into retirement so they still receive their pensions.


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## CitizenPained (Jul 29, 2011)

Is that another doctored photo? 

And what do you think is good for Turkey? Suppressing minorities? Towering over Cyprus? Denying the Armenian holocaust? Another regime change is not what Turkey needs because it doesn't look like it's any better than what was held before, and regime changes are of the most unstable kind. You want to boot Erdo&#287;an? Really?

This Arab spring (yes, I know Turkey is not Arab) is turning into an Arab piss bucket, not that I wouldn't like to see someone better than Erdo&#287;an...but whatever.


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

2010 Progress-report on Turkish accession to EU:
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2010/package/tr_rapport_2010_en.pdf

Chapter on civilian - military relations



> Overall, progress has been made on civilian oversight of security forces. The jurisdiction of military courts was limited, the decisions of the Supreme Military Council were opened to judicial review and arrangements were made for high-ranking officers to be tried by civilian courts. *However, senior members of the armed forces have made a number of statements going beyond their remit*, in particular on judicial issues. No progress was made on parliamentary oversight over extra-budgetary military funds.


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## CitizenPained (Jul 29, 2011)

^^ Was Turkey's military a bit like Egypt's?


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Another regime change is not what Turkey needs



What regime change?
There was election in June and accordingly Turkey is governed by civilian legitimacy.


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## BoycottTheday (Jul 29, 2011)

i just hope y'all dont join the EU, i love my 12 gauge Akkar shotgun,

Got it for a great price compared to the competition,

 the EU probably would make ya stop making them.


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

BoycottTheday said:


> i just hope y'all dont join the EU, i love my 12 gauge Akkar shotgun,
> 
> Got it for a great price compared to the competition,
> 
> the EU probably would make ya stop making them.



People don't like strong leaders and independent-minded countries around here, who expand their influence at cost of others.
Nothing more needs to be said on this issue.

In 2012 Mr.Putin will also return ruling Russia officially.

LoL


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## Ringel05 (Jul 29, 2011)

ekrem said:


> BoycottTheday said:
> 
> 
> > i just hope y'all dont join the EU, i love my 12 gauge Akkar shotgun,
> ...



So you're equating Russian desire for empire with Turkey's new government?  Trying it regain the old Ottoman empire?


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## CitizenPained (Jul 29, 2011)

"Regime change" is a common phrase. We use it in the U S of A, too, when we apply it to Presidents we don't like.


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## ekrem (Jul 29, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> So you're equating Russian desire for empire with Turkey's new government?  Trying it regain the old Ottoman empire?



I admire any person who takes his nation and puts it on course towards much larger goals. From economic expansion to restoring national pride. Putin is one of the greatest leader of our times. He has put Russia back into its natural relevance. As such he is to be admired, and the Russians off course admire him and he has a cult-status wide over the Russian borders.

This world needs a strong Russia, Medvedev was just a gap-filler as Putin couldn't directly rule his next term due to constitution.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 29, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > So you're equating Russian desire for empire with Turkey's new government?  Trying it regain the old Ottoman empire?
> ...



Ya know there's a lot of people who felt the same way about Hitler and Stalin.  Uuummmmm............


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> Ya know there's a lot of people who felt the same way about Hitler and Stalin.  Uuummmmm............



Or like Bush.  Uuummmmm...........


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## Annie (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ya know there's a lot of people who felt the same way about Hitler and Stalin.  Uuummmmm............
> ...



Not germane.


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## Annie (Jul 30, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Indeed. There's every reason to think Ekrem would be there waving the flag. Seen this coming for years. I got to admit, I thought he was one of the few voices, times teach us well. He was the majority in Turkey, now will the EU and NATO look at the reality?


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## Ringel05 (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ya know there's a lot of people who felt the same way about Hitler and Stalin.  Uuummmmm............
> ...





What a nonsensical comparison.  Rationalize much?


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## CitizenPained (Jul 30, 2011)

Well, Turkey's democracy isn't very nice to the couple hundred military generals they've tossed in jail.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 30, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Well, Turkey's democracy isn't very nice to the couple hundred military generals they've tossed in jail.



The Turkish government claims it's because of suspicion of planning a coup.  It sounds like a power play to finally remove the military's political power in the country which, if that is the only reason, can be a good thing.  The latest arrest of 22 officers including two senior ones is what prompted the mass resignations.  The Turkish military have been the traditional defenders of secularism in Turkish rule, with them out of the way....... who knows.......  
The new appointee is the head of the Turkish police, that sounds ominous.


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## Andaluz (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Andaluz said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this can be great news for anyone.
> ...



I won't deny that AKP was democratically elected, and I wasn't speaking for the EU, the Western World or anyone other than myself and all my Turkish friends (I spend 3 months every year in Istanbul and Ankara) none of whom voted AKP. Politics in Turkey is very complicated and riven with corruption - witness the replacing of the paving along the full length of Istiklal Caddesi twice in 3 years because the Governor of Istanbul Belediyesi's son runs a company importing Chinese marble paving stones. Guess who got the contract? - but the military has always provided one of the checks and balances of Turkish secular republicanism. While paying lip service to that secularism, the AKP is chipping away at it by changing things piecemeal to make Turkey creep closer and closer to a politcally Islam-oriented state. 

The powewrhouse of the Turkish economic strength is in the western third of the country, but Turkey is being driven politically by the less progressive, less economically, more religiously-minded two-thirds. THAT is what is not good for anyone, and I mean anyone in Turkey.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> The Turkish government claims it's because of suspicion of planning a coup.  It sounds like a power play to finally remove the military's political power in the country which, if that is the only reason, can be a good thing.  The latest arrest of 22 officers including two senior ones is what prompted the mass resignations.  The Turkish military have been the traditional defenders of secularism in Turkish rule, with them out of the way....... who knows.......
> The new appointee is the head of the Turkish police, that sounds ominous.



We don't need the Army to defend anything, there are the opposition parties to do their job and keep ruling party in check.
1 of them controls a 28.09% stake in Turkey's biggest Bank.
Türkiye Is Bankasi


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Annie said:


> now will the EU and NATO look at the reality?



What can "they" do, that will not harm their interests?


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Annie said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



Mr. Putin has less blood on his hand then Mr. Bush.
So, I wanted to remind Ringel when he indicated Mr. Putin is some Hitler or Stalin type of a guy.


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## CitizenPained (Jul 30, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Turkey's democracy isn't very nice to the couple hundred military generals they've tossed in jail.
> ...



I know. And these fucks think this is democracy?


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> I know. And these fucks think this is democracy?



The independent election-obsververs from the international institutions monitoring each election think it is.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Andaluz said:


> I won't deny that AKP was democratically elected, and I wasn't speaking for the EU, the Western World or anyone other than myself and all my Turkish friends (I spend 3 months every year in Istanbul and Ankara) none of whom voted AKP. Politics in Turkey is very complicated and riven with corruption - witness the replacing of the paving along the full length of Istiklal Caddesi twice in 3 years because the Governor of Istanbul Belediyesi's son runs a company importing Chinese marble paving stones. Guess who got the contract? - but the military has always provided one of the checks and balances of Turkish secular republicanism. While paying lip service to that secularism, the AKP is chipping away at it by changing things piecemeal to make Turkey creep closer and closer to a politcally Islam-oriented state.
> 
> The powewrhouse of the Turkish economic strength is in the western third of the country, but Turkey is being driven politically by the less progressive, less economically, more religiously-minded two-thirds. THAT is what is not good for anyone, and I mean anyone in Turkey.



The next you're in Istanbul, tell your businessfriends, that no one is above law.
And if they want to cheer extra-constitutional practices Turkey is the wrong place for them to live in.
Those 2/3rds you're referring to have the same rights and stakes in the Republic as the 1/3rd.

You want to change that you take up arms and try to implement and exclusive form of State System.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > ekrem said:
> ...



I never said Putin was Hitler or Stalin I said people saw Hitler and Stalin as strong men and look what happened there.  Putin is not above going in that direction and as for Putin not having lots of blood on his hands, much more than Bush....... you really need to do some research.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > The Turkish government claims it's because of suspicion of planning a coup.  It sounds like a power play to finally remove the military's political power in the country which, if that is the only reason, can be a good thing.  The latest arrest of 22 officers including two senior ones is what prompted the mass resignations.  The Turkish military have been the traditional defenders of secularism in Turkish rule, with them out of the way....... who knows.......
> ...



I'm simply making observations based on historical fact and some knowledge of the players involved from an outsiders point of view, only time will tell what happens.  I hope Turkey is able to maintain it's secular democracy but with the movement of many Islamists worldwide for a return to a "purer" form of Islam............. We'll see.


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## Annie (Jul 30, 2011)

It's not only the military, journalists too:

Turkey



> ...But the seeming excesses of the investigation into Sledgehammer have alarmed other U.S. analysts and officials, and raised questions about whether the alleged coup investigation is targeting a broader swathe of AKP critics.
> 
> *Turkish journalists have also been arrested in connection to the alleged coup plot--including some who reported on the alleged activities of a Turkish-based Islamic group known as the Gulen movement. Its head, Fethullah Gulen, lives in exile in Pennsylvania. One arrested journalist, Ahmet Sik, was arrested this spring as he was preparing to publish a book alleging the Gulen movement had infiltrated the Turkish police forces as a kind of counter-weight to the secular military.   (The group also runs schools around the world, including some 120 in the United States, where it has come under investigation by the FBI and Department of Education.)*
> 
> ...



It's worrisome, indeed.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Annie said:


> It's worrisome, indeed.



Yes, Erdolf.
Would you please answer the bold-marked part?




> While the thought of a radical Islamist Turkey is frightening, and many take an odd pleasure in saying that Turkey has been lost to radical Islamism and should be ostracized, the reality is more complex. First, it is hard to ostracize a country that has the largest army in Europe as well as an economy that grew at 8.9 percent last year and that occupies some of the most strategic real estate in the world. If the worst case from the Wests point of view were true, ostracizing Turkey would be tough, making war on it even tougher, and coping with the consequences of an Islamist Turkey tougher still. If it is true that Turkey has been taken over by radical Islamists  something I personally do not believe  it would be a geopolitical catastrophe of the first order for the United States and its allies in the region. And since invading Turkey is not an option, the only choice would be accommodation.* It is interesting to note that those who are most vociferous in writing Turkey off are also most opposed to accommodation. It is not clear what they propose, since their claim is both extreme and generated, for the most part, for rhetorical and not geopolitical reasons.*



Turkey's Elections and Strained U.S. Relations | STRATFOR


You don't like it? Hell, world doesn't always turn to your liking.
That's the reason, why EU although some of it's members have deep-rooted problems with Turkey has opened membership-process with Turkey in 2005. *With unitary vote of all it's members.* And that's the reason Turkey receives pre-accession funding by EU and is already part of EU's Customs Union.

So, tell me, what are you going to do, given that we don't necessarily need you, but you necessarily have to deal with us given your interests in our region and in the energy sphere?
We are here, we won't go away and have clear ambitions. And these ambitions are backed by the people of Turkey - which is what counts at the end of the day.

One thing won't happen, and that is isolation.
You can not even isolate Iran for 30 years.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Its economy is growing three times as fast as those of other European countries. Driving from the western part of Turkey into the eastern provinces of Bulgaria and Romania, *one wonders which side of the border the affluent part of Europe is actually on*.

The Sultan of Istancool: Is Erdogan's Success Pulling Turks Away from Europe? - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> I'm simply making observations based on historical fact and some knowledge of the players involved from an outsiders point of view, only time will tell what happens.  I hope Turkey is able to maintain it's secular democracy but with the movement of many Islamists worldwide for a return to a "purer" form of Islam............. We'll see.



History follows patterns. 
The rise of USA has  for a short time interrupted those patterns. Luckily, the USA is declining without any foreign influence.

In case of Turkey in the last 200 years, these patterns are rigorous cooperation with Germany as Germany always stood on the side of Turkey in times of need. Unconditionally.
Be it development assistance, opening it's borders to Millions of Turkish workers as our economy couldn't integrate them. And opening doors to  "refugees" from the Army's coups(at least 100thousand from 1980 coup), and off course modernization of our economy. Germany is by far the biggest investor into Turkish manufacturing industry compared to other foreigners.

From every  Turkey receives in pre-accession funding of EU, every 20 cents comes out of Germany.
In development assistance, Germany has by far given most to Turkey.
Equivalent to half what Germany received from USA by Marshall-Plan.
*Source:* Federal Ministry for Economic Cooperation and Development
www.bmz.de/de/publikationen/themen/laender_regionen/Materialie198.pdf

And it was Chancellor Helmut Kohl in 1996 that made Turkey participant in EU's Customs Union and in 1997 Turkey began to appear in EU's official documents  as an official membership-candidate of EU.
And in 2005 Chancellor Schröder insisted on membership talks to finally begin.
So it happened.

From our point of "view" the "West" is Germany whom we fought with in World-War. 
If Turkey ever departs from "West", then from USA which is not the "West" for us.
The USA, especially it's anti-Turkish Congress is not really a friend of us.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

In Germany they reformed the education-sector in 2005 by the so-called Excellence-Initiative.
It is reformation of selected Universities so they become science-clusters. 

Elite für den Orient (*Elites for the Orient*)
Deutsch-türkische Universität: Elite für den Orient | Studium | ZEIT ONLINE

Now we construct an University in Istanbul, which will be funded by German Education Ministry and Turkey. The Faculties will be implemented as in Germany.  
Berlin's Technical University for example will establish the Faculty of Engineering Science.
Agreements have already been ratified by both Parliaments.
Or to say it in other words:


> The university is conceived as a visible flagship project of the German-Turkish university cooperation


BMBF  Ministerium  Türkei


For the construction of our 1st nuclear plant, the Scientists will be taught in Moscow by the Nuclear University through scholarships.
Russian President already ratified the agreement:
President of Russia

What has your Parliament ( Congress ) ever ratified in regards to Turkey else then "Armenian Genocide" this, "Islamist Turkey" that. 
So, please do us a favour and fuck off from our region, we don't want you, we don't like you.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Particle Accelerator built on Ankara University project with help of *3 German Universities*.



> The design plan for the TAC is to have a combination of an electron linear accelerator and a positron storage ring that could be used individually or as a unit for a wide range of experiments. This would be the second combination complex build in recent years; the Beijing Electron Positron Collider also combines a particle collider and an X-ray light source.


Turkey plans an accelerator center

German Science Minister was present at signing ceremony
Deal signed on establishment of Turkish Accelerator Center[/QUOTE]

The 1st facility will come online in 2013
Ankara University - Turkish Accelerator Center Project



Turks building German submarines.
Agreement for Germany's latest submarine U-214 - will be called Atilay-class in Turkey - has also been signed.
The Atilay class will be 1st submarine in Turkey built with modern vertical construction technology from German ThyssenKrupp in Turkey.

Pictures of construction of "older" Prezeve-class (German U-209 class) submarines with standard horizontal construction in Gölcük Naval Shipyard near Istanbul.


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## Andaluz (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> The next you're in Istanbul, tell your businessfriends, that no one is above law.
> And if they want to cheer extra-constitutional practices Turkey is the wrong place for them to live in.
> Those 2/3rds you're referring to have the same rights and stakes in the Republic as the 1/3rd.
> 
> You want to change that you take up arms and try to implement and exclusive form of State System.



'businessfriends'? A couple of my friends are business people, but mainly they are journalists, artists, chefs and university professors. Why would you think that? 

Of course no one should be above the law, apart from AKP corrupt politicians, of course. Oh, and the wives of AKP high-ups who flouted the veil ban laws before they were changed and were not prosecuted. It's just a good job that the AKP failed to poll sufficiently in the general election to allow them to make constitutional changes unopposed.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Andaluz said:


> 'businessfriends'? A couple of my friends are business people, but mainly they are journalists, artists, chefs and university professors. Why would you think that?
> 
> Of course no one should be above the law, apart from AKP corrupt politicians, of course. Oh, and the wives of AKP high-ups who flouted the veil ban laws before they were changed and were not prosecuted. It's just a good job that the AKP failed to poll sufficiently in the general election to allow them to make constitutional changes unopposed.



Why should anyone wearing a head-scarf be prosecuted?
Please explain your world-view.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm simply making observations based on historical fact and some knowledge of the players involved from an outsiders point of view, only time will tell what happens.  I hope Turkey is able to maintain it's secular democracy but with the movement of many Islamists worldwide for a return to a "purer" form of Islam............. We'll see.
> ...



So busy defending Turkey against imagined attacks by making unrelated (and ridiculous) comparisons you completely missed my point.  Go figure. 
Enjoy your fantasy propaganda machinations.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> Enjoy your fantasy propaganda machinations.



I will.


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## ekrem (Jul 30, 2011)

ARD, Germany's public broadcaster

*Turkish generals clear the field*
...  _bow  down to democratic rules_
Türkische Generäle räumen das Feld | tagesschau.de
Google Translation Link


*A victory for democracy in Turkey*
Kommentar: Ein Sieg für die Demokratie in der Türkei | tagesschau.de
Google Translation Link


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## Ringel05 (Jul 30, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Enjoy your fantasy propaganda machinations.
> ...



Still missing my point and still under the impression I'm attacking the Turkish government and people.  *sigh*


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## ekrem (Jul 31, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> Still missing my point and still under the impression I'm attacking the Turkish government and people.  *sigh*



The issue was solved within four hours and the Turkish people seem content with that.
VIDEO: *Turkey stable after top brass quit* | euronews, world news


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 31, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > So you're equating Russian desire for empire with Turkey's new government?  Trying it regain the old Ottoman empire?
> ...



And yet when the US or Israel flex their muscles and expand their roles, you piss and cry like a 5 year old. Go figure.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 31, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...



If Turkey goes Islamic Fundamentalist just how long before no more Internet for Ekram?


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## Ringel05 (Jul 31, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > ekrem said:
> ...



He's so busy playing cheerleader for Turkey he can't see anything else.  Part of that culture is an admiration and respect for strong leaders even if they're brutal as long as they make their peoples economic/industrial/trade situation better.  There are still Russians who revere Stalin for what he did for Russia despite the millions upon millions killed.  Look at his admiration for bloody Putin, power for power's sake, nationalistic economic expansion by any and all means.


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## freedombecki (Jul 31, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > ekrem said:
> ...



It is sad how Putin's adversaries just seem to die of polonium poisoning.


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## ekrem (Jul 31, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> And yet when the US or Israel flex their muscles and expand their roles, you piss and cry like a 5 year old. Go figure.



You are ignorant, time is my witness.

usmb.com - post61


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## ekrem (Jul 31, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> If Turkey goes Islamic Fundamentalist just how long before no more Internet for Ekram?



Democracies cannot accept military interventions of any kind - be it physical or rhetorical. Simple as that.
You have a problem with that, it is your problem, not mine. And it only shows what kind of "democrat" you are.

As to "Ekram" having no Internet:
Turkish Telecom, Europe's 3rd biggest Telecommunication company, will connect Arab countries to the data-center in Istanbul with 7.000 km of  fibre-glass throughout Arab countries. 
So our Arab friends get reliable and fast access to Internet like Turks have.

Source:
ARD, Germany's *Public Broadcaster*
Türkei: Auf dem Weg zum Hightech-Land? | tagesschau.de
Google Translation Link


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## ekrem (Jul 31, 2011)

Under the AK Parti Turkey has become world's 7th largest Internet market:

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/events/cf/daa11/document.cfm?doc_id=16441


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## Annie (Jul 31, 2011)

freedombecki said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...



Indeed. Anyone with a sense of past and future can just flip through Ekrem's posts and see what nationalism, as compared with patriotism is about. Bad winds are blowing.


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## ekrem (Jul 31, 2011)

freedombecki said:


> It is sad how Putin's adversaries just seem to die of polonium poisoning.



I like the Roadrunner and Coyote.
The roadrunner in this case was the mobile WMD-laboratories and the missiles which could be launched within 45 minutes.
The Coyote (USA) never could catch them.







Mr. Putin has much less blood on his hand, then the "great democratic USA".


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## ekrem (Jul 31, 2011)

Annie said:


> Indeed. Anyone with a sense of past and future can just flip through Ekrem's posts and see what nationalism, as compared with patriotism is about. Bad winds are blowing.



Look in the mirror, and after that look behind you. Maybe you'll see the blood-path behind you,  then you'll see from where the wind is blowing.
The "Axis of Good" and the *good wars* against the "Axis of Evil".


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## Ringel05 (Aug 1, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed. Anyone with a sense of past and future can just flip through Ekrem's posts and see what nationalism, as compared with patriotism is about. Bad winds are blowing.
> ...



Sooooo. evil should not be fought thereby allowing it to flourish?  Oh course what one considers evil can at times be subjective and or propagandized.  And no, I'm not referring to one nation, individual or group of nations, individuals though I suspect you will.


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## ekrem (Aug 1, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> Sooooo. evil should not be fought thereby allowing it to flourish?  Oh course what one considers evil can at times be subjective and or propagandized.  And no, I'm not referring to one nation, individual or group of nations, individuals though I suspect you will.



The evil that was Saddam was deactivated in 1990.
After that, Iraq lost any claim on its territory with Northern and Southern no-fly zones, and the north becoming quasi autonomous. 
The rest was done by UN sanctions.

So, what qualified Iraq in 2001 to become a member of the so-called "Axis of Evil".
Nothing, because the Evil this time was not located on Iraq's side.


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## Ringel05 (Aug 1, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Sooooo. evil should not be fought thereby allowing it to flourish?  Oh course what one considers evil can at times be subjective and or propagandized.  And no, I'm not referring to one nation, individual or group of nations, individuals though I suspect you will.
> ...



Well that was pretty much a non-answer though it was a rather thinly veiled accusation.  Pretty much what I expected.


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## ekrem (Aug 2, 2011)

Ringel05 said:


> Well that was pretty much a non-answer though it was a rather thinly veiled accusation.  Pretty much what I expected.



If you express an attitude of expectation with subliminal charges,   I won't disappoint you and you'll get the answers you deserve.


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## Ringel05 (Aug 2, 2011)

ekrem said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Well that was pretty much a non-answer though it was a rather thinly veiled accusation.  Pretty much what I expected.
> ...



Originally my statements, observations and questions were free of expectations and bias, based on current events and past history not judgments.  It was you, your responses that changed that, responses that became all to predictable based on nationalistic egotism, among other things, which brook no objective analysis.  By attacking me, trying to make me an enemy, you only have yourself to blame.  Way to go moron.


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