# The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga



## Daniyel (Jun 29, 2015)

Latest incident. 
Israel seizes activist flotilla headed to Gaza - Israel News Ynetnews
Wiki
Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
2010 UN report.
www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf
Some coverage about the turn of events.
Gaza flotilla attack world unites in condemnation of Israel s actions World news The Guardian
Israel offers compensation to Mavi Marmara flotilla raid victims World news The Guardian
ICC rules out investigation into Israeli raid on Gaza-bound flotilla World news The Guardian

Any opinions on this matter?


----------



## Phoenall (Jun 29, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Latest incident.
> Israel seizes activist flotilla headed to Gaza - Israel News Ynetnews
> Wiki
> Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...








 What happened to the Turkish navy that was going to chase the Israeli ships away.  Cold feet or just cowards ?


----------



## MJB12741 (Jun 29, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Latest incident.
> Israel seizes activist flotilla headed to Gaza - Israel News Ynetnews
> Wiki
> Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



"Humanitarian" Gaza flotilla.  Now THAT'S funy!


----------



## Daniyel (Jun 29, 2015)

MJB12741 said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Latest incident.
> ...


They said to be carrying a pack of expired pain relievers.


----------



## Daniyel (Jun 29, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Latest incident.
> ...


 Advertisement
Mineva


----------



## MJB12741 (Jun 29, 2015)

MJB12741 said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Latest incident.
> ...



Ya gotta love the Pali's for their great sense of humor.  Heh Heh!


----------



## aris2chat (Jun 29, 2015)

MJB12741 said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Latest incident.
> ...



If it was humanitarian need for people, they should have gone to syria where help is needed the most.

Israel boarded the boat peacefully and had to head towards Ashdod.

Songfacts - List of songs by Queen


----------



## montelatici (Jun 29, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniyel said:
> ...



Interesting fact, Freddy Mercury was of the Zoroasterian religion, born in Zanzibar of parents who were of Persian descent.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 29, 2015)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > MJB12741 said:
> ...



Theirs is a good philosophy.  There being two gods, one good and one evil, would explain alot of what goes on in this world.


----------



## Phoenall (Jun 29, 2015)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > MJB12741 said:
> ...








 Another of the groups abused by the arab muslims and ethnically cleansed from the M.E.


----------



## aris2chat (Jun 29, 2015)

One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
0 arrived in gaza


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 29, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
> 0 arrived in gaza


These Gaza "Humanitarian Flotillas" are a joke. It's not about humanity at all but pure and simple anti-Semitism.


*Contentions*

*Why Flotillas Sail to Gaza, Not Syria*



Today, the latest publicity stunt by pro-Palestinian activists ended harmlessly as the Israel Navy intercepted a ship off the coast of Gazathat was attempting to break the blockade of the strip in order to draw attention to what is passengers claim is a humanitarian crisis. But, like previous Gaza flotillas, the effort has little to do with the plight of the people of Gaza and everything to do with the long war being waged to end Israel’s existence. More to the point, the continued focus on Gaza by those calling themselves advocates for human rights at the very moment that a genuine human catastrophe is occurring inside Syria without much of response from the international community tells us all we need to know about the hypocrisy of Israel-bashers.


The fact that it was Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu who today pointed out the fact that flotillas aren’t sailing to Syria doesn’t make it any less valid. Hundreds of Syrians have been slaughtered by the Assad regime that is backed by Iran and Hezbollah terrorists with more being killed by its tacit ISIS allies. The carnage has created millions of refugees who are living in squalor inside the country or in camps in neighboring Jordan.

But as Netanyahu knows, there will be no peace activist flotilla to Syria to bring aid to people who really need it. Nor had those on the Swedish-registered Marianne that was diverted by the Israelis gotten lost on their way to help those truly in need. Instead, they were on the way to try and help the Hamas government of Gaza that has been rightly isolated by the international community since the bloody 2007 coup when the Islamist group seized power.


Gaza Flotillas Showcase Anti-Semitism Not Humanitarianism


----------



## fanger (Jun 30, 2015)




----------



## Billo_Really (Jun 30, 2015)

This is the ship they should send to Gaza...


----------



## Billo_Really (Jun 30, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
> 0 arrived in gaza


Which just proves how inhuman you fuckers are.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> This is the ship they should send to Gaza...


----------



## Billo_Really (Jun 30, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> View attachment 43501


So, you're in to bulls butts?


----------



## Linkiloo (Jun 30, 2015)

Israel did a great job of diffusing the provocation.

I am surprised though that the pro pals didn't provoke violence so that they could be the victims of the brutal Jews...er....zionists. LOL


----------



## Billo_Really (Jun 30, 2015)

Linkiloo said:


> Israel did a great job of diffusing the provocation.
> 
> I am surprised though that the pro pals didn't provoke violence so that they could be the victims of the brutal Jews...er....zionists. LOL


Why can't Gazan's have humanitarian aid?

This shows just how sick your society is.


----------



## Linkiloo (Jun 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> > Israel did a great job of diffusing the provocation.
> ...


 Which is "your society"?

They have aid through the proper channels. This isn't about aid but about provocation.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jun 30, 2015)

Linkiloo said:


> Which is "your society"?


Israeli society and their kiss-ass minions.




Linkiloo said:


> They have aid through the proper channels. This isn't about aid but about provocation.


They don't have enough aid and Israel has no right restricting imports.  What Israel is doing is a war crime.  It's collective punishment.  If I was President, I'd send in battleships with humanitarian aid.  Let's see you fuckers board them.


----------



## Phoenall (Jun 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
> ...







Do explain how that is when the people in gaza get fed more than the clinically obese Americans we see waddling around Disney world.


----------



## Phoenall (Jun 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> > Israel did a great job of diffusing the provocation.
> ...






They get 1000's of tons every week, but hamas steals it to sell and buy weapons to kill Jewish children with


----------



## Phoenall (Jun 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> > Which is "your society"?
> ...






 Then blame hamas who stop the flow of aid once it crosses the border. Remember the crisis last summer when hospitals ran out of supplies, yet the UN was sending it in through UNWRA by the ton. It later transpired that hamas was sitting on it to create a propaganda element out of it.


----------



## aris2chat (Jun 30, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Linkiloo said:
> ...



Not Israel's doing, UNRWA is cutting their staff by 85%

Palestinians will have to learn to fend for themselves.  They will have to pay for their own needs.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 30, 2015)

How many hundreds of tons of supplies does Israel transport to Gaza every day? And don't say it's not true.


----------



## aris2chat (Jun 30, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> How many hundreds of tons of supplies does Israel transport to Gaza every day? And don't say it's not true.



more than 1000 trucks and averaging about 8 tons each, each day


----------



## fanger (Jun 30, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


*Interesting that you should call others "clinically obese"*


----------



## fanger (Jun 30, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Linkiloo said:
> ...


Link?


----------



## Daniyel (Jun 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> > Which is "your society"?
> ...


You...president...?


----------



## Phoenall (Jun 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...







 Care to say what you mean and where you are getting your information from.   And have you ever heard of Cushings syndrome ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jun 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...






 Will this do ?


Fatah Accuses Hamas of Stealing Millions in Gaza Aid Jewish Israel News Algemeiner.com

Or this

UN halts aid into Gaza after Hamas steals thousands of tonnes of aid World news The Guardian


----------



## fanger (Jun 30, 2015)

To Our Friends in the United Church of Christ: 

We write to thank you as Jews, Muslims, Protestants, atheists and others; as mothers and fathers, daughters and sons; and as people united in our belief in justice and liberation for all peoples. 

We thank you for your historic and moral vote to divest from the Israeli occupation. Your vote is a profound act of solidarity with Palestinians who have suffered decades of occupation, dispossession, and discrimination. 

And it is a source of great friendship to the countless Jews who believe our liberation is inextricably tied to Palestinian liberation. Speaking is not enough, only courageous actions can help us create the conditions for a lasting and just peace.
JVP L Chaim UCC


----------



## fanger (Jun 30, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Peter Cushing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia  ?


----------



## Daniyel (Jun 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> To Our Friends in the United Church of Christ:
> 
> We write to thank you as Jews, Muslims, Protestants, atheists and others; as mothers and fathers, daughters and sons; and as people united in our belief in justice and liberation for all peoples.
> 
> ...


"Countless" 
See the problem here? These people are unable to count 5,000 people(roughly)


----------



## Penelope (Jun 30, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
> ...



I guess if one thinks they are God , they know everything. He is a propaganda machine. Coin in, slop out.


----------



## aris2chat (Jun 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> To Our Friends in the United Church of Christ:
> 
> We write to thank you as Jews, Muslims, Protestants, atheists and others; as mothers and fathers, daughters and sons; and as people united in our belief in justice and liberation for all peoples.
> 
> ...



did they divest from Apple?


----------



## montelatici (Jun 30, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > To Our Friends in the United Church of Christ:
> ...



They voted on divesting Israeli assets.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Latest incident.
> ...


Wasn't it that whack-job 'Minerva' (or whatever it's name is) that was bragging about how the Turkish Navy was going to protect the flotilla?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2015)

fanger said:


>


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
> 0 arrived in gaza


Good Guys, 4

Dumb-Asses (on behalf of the Bad Guys), 0

Game... Set... Match.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
> ...


Nasty little potty-mouth, ain't he?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 30, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > One boat at ashdod, two turned away when the first was boarded, they lost the fourth earlier.
> ...


Gaza is back in the news.

Mission accomplished.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


Sure, Tinny... sure...


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 1, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...








Try again, only this time look at a medical source


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 1, 2015)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...







So they are just plain old RACISTS


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 1, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Daniyel said:
> ...








 YUUUUUP    Suddenly went quiet and left the building


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...






NOPE   just another failure to prove Israel is stopping them from being a state


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 1, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


"A state" is a propaganda term.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The Israeli Defense Ministry confirmed today that there was absolutely no humanitarian aid aboard the recent flotilla, aside from a few strawberries.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 1, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Just illegals trying to enter Gaza


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






Does the UN recognise the state of Palestine, and does this mean that it exists. So it is the Palestinians using the propaganda term and failing at every turn. Not once have you shown where and how Israel is stopping the Palestinians from having a state.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 1, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Tinmore is very cryptic in his posts.  He never spells out what he really means.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 1, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 Afraid to condemn himself as it would mean his demise


----------



## fanger (Jul 1, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


*Look at life choices*


----------



## fanger (Jul 1, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


They should have put a blockade on all those illegal jewish immigrants back in the '30s


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2015)

fanger said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Too late now... that's a bitch, ain't it?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ..."A state" is a propaganda term.


OK... then, the so-called Palestinians don't _need_ a State... we're done here... shut down the forum... time to move onto something that's actually important.


----------



## theliq (Jul 1, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ..."A state" is a propaganda term.
> ...


Typical NON-SENSE


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2015)

theliq said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Don't know about 'typical' but I agree that Tinny's declaration is pure nonsense... as my modest little venture into satire illustrates.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 1, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ..."A state" is a propaganda term.
> ...


I never said that but keep making stuff up.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 2, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...







 You mean like stop taking the medication that causes Cushings and drown in my own fluids ? Or stop the steroids that control the spread of emphysema and die?

 Like I said stop listening to the Jocks in Frocks that have been banned from more boards for trolling and learn to be decent


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 2, 2015)

fanger said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...








 If the sovereign land owners invited them then they cant be illegals, but the arab muslims are as they turned up uninvited


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No, of course you never said what I said.

But it's the logical progression, building upon your bold declaration that '_State is a propaganda term_' - in the context of these topical discussions.

I merely connected the dots that you laid down.

Happy to do it.

All part of the friendly service.

No extra charge.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 2, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



I think we're starting to learn how to play this game.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Why is "a state" constantly mentioned when the Palestinians do not mention it?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 They mention it all the time when they claim that Israel is stopping them from achieving statehood.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Links?


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


But Kondor3 , They were bringing in vital humanitarian aid. Check it out.


Pro-Palestinian activists aboard a Swedish vessel tried and failed to punch through Israel’s maritime blockade of Gaza this week. Israeli commandos boarded the vessel, searched the ship and brought it to an Israeli port.

The Israeli military called the operation “uneventful.” According to a report, Israel’s Channel 2, one of the activists was zapped with a taser. The foreign activists were detained and are being deported.

In the scope of Middle East confrontations, it was a minor, though publicized, affair.

Afterwards, Israel’s defense minister Moshe Yaalon said, “there was no aid on board” the activist ship.

Not necessarily so — but pretty close. We checked. You decide.


The humanitarian aid aboard a recent flotilla to Gaza fit in two cardboard boxes


----------



## montelatici (Jul 2, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...




"The Gaza activitists said the larger cardboard box contains a solar panel, donated by a Swedish magazine, ETC, which also runs an “environmentally-friendly electricity company.” The panel was bound for Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City.

Ighe said the Swedish Association of Midwives also donated a nebulizer, a machine used to inhale medicines, often used to calm asthma attacks. That is the small cardboard box.

“Last but not least,” Ighe said, “the boat is cargo in herself, bound to be donated to a fishermen’s organization in Gaza.”

From your link.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Thousands of tons of aid, eh?  A solar panel? A  nebulizer? Wowee!


----------



## montelatici (Jul 2, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



It was the smallest of the 4 ships, it was a fishing boat.  A child with asthma in Gaza would have been helped.  You may find it entertaining that the Palestinians can be helped with so little.  You are happily giving Israel billions in aid.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Have you ever considered the fact if Palis cut out their ass-headed resistance to getting their own country they could lead normal lives? Hate, terror, murder, lies and deception is all those poor fuckers know. It's time for them to act civilized.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



All financial aid, aside from military aid, was phased out in the 1990's.  And if the Arabs only acted normal and civilized, then that military aid could be cut too.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 2, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



If your grandparents had been kicked out of Texas by foreigners from another continent and the foreigners had declared a state of an ethnicity/religion other than your own, would you just give up?


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


How about if my parents had to leave El Salvador in the`1900's because they were so impoverished and wanted a better life and traveled into Texas for this, does this mean that everyone should feel that they were originally from Texas and that the Texans had taken over the land from them.  I wonder when those poor individualss who came from poor Muslim countries are going to claim that they are the original inhabitants of France.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 2, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Did these Salvadoran's create their own state in Texas?  

There was no immigration from Muslim countries to Palestine, the only immigrants to Palestine were the Europeans.


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 2, 2015)

He 





Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



You're kidding, right? You expect Tinny to understand a logical progression? 
He doesn't even know what that means.


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Nope ... the Texans created their own state just like the Israelis did. Case closed.


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > ...Afterwards, Israel’s defense minister Moshe Yaalon said, “there was no aid on board” the activist ship.
> ...




A flotilla? A typical solar panel generates enough electricity to power a light bulb or two. Really, dude ... is their no anti-Israel BS you won't get behind? Is there no bottom to your mindless hatred?


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Thousands of tons of aid, eh?  A solar panel? A  nebulizer? Wowee!
> ...



If aiding the "poor Palestinian children" was truly the intent, they could have sent it FedEx and gotten it there much quicker.
Nah ... for "people" like you and those phony, goody two-shoes "activists," none of this is about aiding the hapless Palestinians.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


If the Palestinians did not mention one, perhaps their application to the UN for Statehood status was a silly mistake.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


You are confusing the Palestinians with the oligarchs around Ramallah.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Then it is up to the Palestinians themselves to *UN*confuse everyone.

Beginning with themselves.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


It's amusing how you make things up.  You certainly try so hard to be a first class propagandist.  Instead of posting so many hours a day, sit back and think about the lies that you tell this forum. 

Jews to no one s land


----------



## Roudy (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Monte the IslamoNazi troll, on this site every day 20 hours a day:

_*"There was no immigration from Muslim countries to Palestine, the only immigrants to Palestine were the Europeans."*_

_*




*_





















*"There was no immigration from Muslim countries to Palestine, the only immigrants to Palestine were the Europeans."*


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Read your own posts which mentions it all the time


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








 Strange how my nebuliser attaches to my mask and is powered by oxygen pressure. Would fit in a very small box about the size of a cigarette packet.   So in 4 boats that could carry thousands of tone maybs 200lbs of humanitarian aid were found.  Can you smell that foul odour of rotten fish yet ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








 Just like you invaded and stole the lands of America you mean, so why aren't you handing back your stolen lands ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 Apart from the many arab muslims noted in one of your reports that you try and gloss over


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 So they are not elected representatives of the palestinians then ?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 3, 2015)

So, the so-called 'humanitarian flotilla' had - what? - a first-aid kit, and a box of Band-Aids?

If these so-called Peace Activists were so concerned over conditions in Gaza, they can always negotiate with the State of Israel, for the Israelis to receive any humanitarian goods which they wish to donate, and the Israelis can then relay those goods to the Gazans. Heck, I'll bet the Israelis would even accept an Observer, to verify delivery of the goods.

Did the Activists even both to attempt such an approach, or did they simply wish to test the mettle of the IDF, in foolishly attempting to run a naval blockade?

Rather difficult to sell the 'humanitarian' angle if they never tried to work with the Israelis to receive and deliver such 'aid'.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

Most donors, in any such situation, refuse to allow the oppressor to be a middle man in providing humanitarian aid.  This has been the policy of NGOs and Governments in almost every case throughout the world.  The reason for this is that oppressors manipulate access to the aid to suit the oppressor's interests.  The U.S. took this position in Darfur, for example.  Not allowing Sudan to distribute aid.  It is just common sense.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Most donors, in any such situation, refuse to allow the oppressor to be a middle man in providing humanitarian aid.  This has been the policy of NGOs and Governments in almost every case throughout the world.  The reason for this is that oppressors manipulate access to the aid to suit the oppressor's interests.  The U.S. took this position in Darfur, for example.  Not allowing Sudan to distribute aid.  It is just common sense.


And Hamas confiscates everything going into Gaza, sells it to the highest bidder or uses it for their personal use and says "Screw the people."  What a wonderful system!


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Most donors, in any such situation, refuse to allow the oppressor to be a middle man in providing humanitarian aid.  This has been the policy of NGOs and Governments in almost every case throughout the world.  The reason for this is that oppressors manipulate access to the aid to suit the oppressor's interests.  The U.S. took this position in Darfur, for example.  Not allowing Sudan to distribute aid.  It is just common sense.


In Sudan the government lets goods rot and deteriorate in the warehouses. After they take what they want. Get real.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

The plain fact is that NGOs and governments have a policy of not allowing the oppressing party to distribute aid for the reasons stated.  It really doesn't matter what you think.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


No they are not.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> > Israel did a great job of diffusing the provocation.
> ...



They can.. They need to go thru security and customs at Ashdod. Until such time that Hamas allows International Inspectors to investigate and verify their customs controls.. Do you know where the Gaza Naval Customs station is and what they attempt to interdict? All civilized nations do this.. And they comply with International treaties and Arms control...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Most donors, in any such situation, refuse to allow the oppressor to be a middle man in providing humanitarian aid.  This has been the policy of NGOs and Governments in almost every case throughout the world.  The reason for this is that oppressors manipulate access to the aid to suit the oppressor's interests.  The U.S. took this position in Darfur, for example.  Not allowing Sudan to distribute aid.  It is just common sense.



Like Israel is likely to steal a crate of Band-Aid and box of Maalox.. "middleman" -- no.. Acting to assure customs compliance to International standards -- yes. Ask the Government of Gaza to get on the ball and get internationally recognized and inspected to do that job.. 

And "good luck with all that"...


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Linkiloo said:
> ...



All civilized nations allow International Inspectors to investigate and verify their custom controls?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The plain fact is that NGOs and governments have a policy of not allowing the oppressing party to distribute aid for the reasons stated.  It really doesn't matter what you think.



Then virtually no aid would ever flow to Africa or Somalia or other worldly hellholes. In fact -- the GOVERNMENTS STEAL that aid and do a lousy job of distribution. Look at our mess just attempting to "aid" Somalia. YET -- THAT didn't stop NGOs from sending the goods in.. You are inventing NGO policies that don't apply to customs and security inspections..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Yes --- of course.. This news to you? They are subject to compliance with international law and subject to inspection in MANY trade agreements and pacts. This would all be all be news to Hamas savages, but I figured you might know that...


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 3, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...



solar panel and the smaller the nebulizer.  Not at the top of any vital item list.
A nebulizer can easily be made from a water bottle and tape.

If one of those boxes were filled with tape it might be urgently needed as well as duel use by terrorists.................................
as for the solar panel, that could have arrived in a small light weight bow of solar film and it could be put together easily in gaza.  A boat load of solar film could have supplied power to most of gaza city.

Maybe all the real supplies were on the other boats that did not make it gaza?

If they wasted gas for the boat's engine, it was a waste of money.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Most donors, in any such situation, refuse to allow the oppressor to be a middle man in providing humanitarian aid.  This has been the policy of NGOs and Governments in almost every case throughout the world.  The reason for this is that oppressors manipulate access to the aid to suit the oppressor's interests.  The U.S. took this position in Darfur, for example.  Not allowing Sudan to distribute aid.  It is just common sense.
> ...


What happened to all that cement that was on a previous flotilla? I don't recall anyone mentioning it.

The Palestinians have already requested international inspections of imports.

What are the inspection requirements for exports?


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > The plain fact is that NGOs and governments have a policy of not allowing the oppressing party to distribute aid for the reasons stated.  It really doesn't matter what you think.
> ...




Humanitarian aid delivery policy is designed to avoid the possibility that belligerents can use the delay, acceleration and ultimate delivery of aid (manipulation) as a means of gaining an advantage in a struggle military, political or otherwise.  Neutrality of aid organizations is a primary necessity.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



THese seem like how you WANT things to be. Rather than how they are. Aid organizations are kissing ass of corrupt governments all the time. As far as belligerent delays --- I encounter them every week. Used to be the Chinese would DISMANTLE any electronics I sent over there. Often arrived with pieces missing or just a pile of parts. Cry me a river... 

HOWEVER --- if you have evidence that there ARE belligerent delays at the Israeli port -- we can discuss that. 
If there wasn't a military government in charge of Gaza -- there would be less chances that Gaza is trying to gain a military advantage eh? 

If you have to pull the ship's apart to find rocket kits and weapons -- that's how it is.. Happens on our borders all the freaking time.  From your perspective -- humanitarian aid would INCLUDE rockets and explosives.. Am I right?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

If Hamas hadn't staged their bloody Gaza coupe.. There'd be an Intl Airport AND an Intl Seaport there RIGHT NOW !!!  It's part of the poor prioritization on important things to the folks of Gaza who ALLOW this political dysfunction..


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> If Hamas hadn't staged their bloody Gaza coupe.. There'd be an Intl Airport AND an Intl Seaport there RIGHT NOW !!!  It's part of the poor prioritization on important things to the folks of Gaza who ALLOW this political dysfunction..


They didn't stage a bloody coup.  The won a fair and democratic election.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> THese seem like how you WANT things to be. Rather than how they are. Aid organizations are kissing ass of corrupt governments all the time. As far as belligerent delays --- I encounter them every week. Used to be the Chinese would DISMANTLE any electronics I sent over there. Often arrived with pieces missing or just a pile of parts. Cry me a river...
> 
> HOWEVER --- if you have evidence that there ARE belligerent delays at the Israeli port -- we can discuss that.
> If there wasn't a military government in charge of Gaza -- there would be less chances that Gaza is trying to gain a military advantage eh?
> ...



Let me put it this way, Israel has no right at all to stop anything going into Gaza.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > THese seem like how you WANT things to be. Rather than how they are. Aid organizations are kissing ass of corrupt governments all the time. As far as belligerent delays --- I encounter them every week. Used to be the Chinese would DISMANTLE any electronics I sent over there. Often arrived with pieces missing or just a pile of parts. Cry me a river...
> ...



Figured that was your position. I'm sure we (USA) don't have any right to contain other countries that pose a threat to our security either..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> If Hamas hadn't staged their bloody Gaza coupe.. There'd be an Intl Airport AND an Intl Seaport there RIGHT NOW !!!  It's part of the poor prioritization on important things to the folks of Gaza who ALLOW this political dysfunction..


After the so called coup:

The president was still the president.
The prime minister was still the prime minister.
No cabinet minister was changed.
No members of parliament were changed.
No laws were changed.
The constitution was still in force.

This was the weirdest coup in history. Or maybe it was just a lie.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > If Hamas hadn't staged their bloody Gaza coupe.. There'd be an Intl Airport AND an Intl Seaport there RIGHT NOW !!!  It's part of the poor prioritization on important things to the folks of Gaza who ALLOW this political dysfunction..
> ...


 
Yeah -- after a bloody fight for control. The Freedom of Gaza was NOT given to Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The WORLD immediately isolated Gaza after the infection that you call an election.. 

When is the NEXT PA Election jerk-off? When was the LAST ONE ??


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works.... 

The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Where the heck do you come up with "From your perspective -- humanitarian aid would INCLUDE rockets and explosives.."?  How can stating that humanitarian aid purveyors must be and appear neutral lead you to believe that I would believe that humanitarian aid would include arms?  

The government in charge in Gaza is facing a military blockade and an adversary that has never lifted control over the territory's land borders, territorial sea or air space.  

Manipulation of aid delivery by a belligerent is not limited to delays.  The Israelis could for example, instead of releasing the aid to the Gaza people could insist on releasing it to the PLO, this would enhance the PLO's standing affecting neutrality vis-a-vis political factions.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Here's where I came up with Humanitarian Aid would include rockets and explosives --- Billo just essentially said that when he said Israel has no right to inspect ANYTHING going into Gaza.. Do you agree with that statement?

You'll have to take that issue up with the past few Egyptian govts as well since they aren't gonna allow an Iranian Proxy terrorist army to camp out on THEIR border either.

Having Israel DIVERT aid to the Fatah factions would just make things worse. They don't WANT to divert aid -- they want to keep weapons out of Hamas hands.

Why do you ignore the CHOICE that Gazans made?? They valued Intifada MORE than a Seaport or Airport or International recognition..  There was process and funding and help for those things as a settlement between Israel and the PA ---- BEFORE their Civil War for power. 

 It was their choice -- you should respect that. They could be a booming Med economy today -- but chose to install leadership that ended any pretense of Democratic process in the entire PA...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....
> 
> The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...


Opened in 1998. Bombed in 2000.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....
> 
> The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...


In 1994, the Dutch Government committed some NLG45 million (circa €23 million) to the Gaza Sea Port project; France committed additional US$20 million. The same year, the Palestinian Authority (PA) and the Dutch-French _European Gaza Development Group_ (EGDG) signed a contract for the project. It was difficult to reach consensus with Israel on issues regarding engineering, operations and security. Due to Israeli obstruction, the 1994 contract expired before the works could start.[5]

On 20 April 2000, the parties signed a new contract. Phase one of the project started on 18 July.[6] The construction was halted, as Israel refused to facilitate the supply of needed construction materials.[7] On 17 and 18 September 2000, Israeli tanks destroyed the project site.[8] In October, Israel bombed the building site in response to an incident in Ramallah. Following this, the Donor States ceased funding the project and the work on the port stopped.[9]

Gaza Seaport plans - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....
> ...



Kinda ruins the argument that Israel NEVER released control of Gaza airspace or commerce. Even BEFORE the withdrawal.. 

As part of the withdrawal, there were plans and process set up to REOPEN and rebuild the Airport.. 
Was not very important to the Gazans evidently.. THey KNEW a Hamas govt would end any chance of that happening. THEY made the decision..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


The airport was bombed long before Israeli liars started blaming Hamas.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Here's where I came up with Humanitarian Aid would include rockets and explosives --- Billo just essentially said that when he said Israel has no right to inspect ANYTHING going into Gaza.. Do you agree with that statement?
> 
> You'll have to take that issue up with the past few Egyptian govts as well since they aren't gonna allow an Iranian Proxy terrorist army to camp out on THEIR border either.
> 
> ...



As long as Israel is the occupying power, it has the right to inspect.  On the other hand a blockaded entity has the right, actually duty, to attempt to break the blockade.

The Gazans, like all Palestinians, value independence and national liberation.  There was an airport, the Israelis bombed it during the first Intifada in retaliation for disturbances on the West Bank. In any case it was a joke sovereignty-wise as the Israelis controlled it.


"Israel first bombed Gaza airport in 2001, in answer to Palestinian militant attacks on Israelis in the West Bank. The second Palestinian Intifada had erupted a few months earlier. Israel's F-16s later repeatedly rocketed the runway and knocked down the tower.Palestinian Airlines shifted operations to Egypt and Jordan; the airport never reopened......in the old airport's brief life, passengers and baggage were monitored by Israeli security staff as they passed in and out."


Gaza s Shattered Airport Once A Symbol Of Sovereignty Parallels NPR


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



The Israelis assigned slots and controlled the air space and controlled entry and exit.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process.. 

Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005 

_*Gaza Seaport
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.

Airport

The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues of security arrangements, construction, and operation.*_

- See more at: Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Of course -- The airport approach and departure lanes are SHARED airspace. A little cooperation there is a GOOD thing.. That's how air traffic control works. If Israel didn't want Iranian flights into their airspace (for example) -- they should have a say in the matter..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..
> 
> Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005
> 
> ...


Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..​
How so?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..
> ...



Just told you PF.. They chose a terrorist organization to represent them. A choice that they should KNOW would end the chances of having unfettered seaports and airports.. Are you not following this??? THEY CHOSE NOT to value those things when they elected Hamas and shut down the democratic process of the PA...

PA barely exists today because of that decision...
You should ACCEPT their choices..


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



The air space wasn't shared it was Israeli air space.  Even approach control was Israeli.  By the way, CNS is what I do.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Well good.. Then you appreciate the subtleties of expecting EXCLUSIVE airspace control over a tiny spec like Gaza.. Why is this not a cooperation issue for discussion? What was the ATControl network that Gaza had to support "its airspace"?


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



All sovereign states have the right to control their own air space.  Gaza may not have had a primary or secondary radar, but they should have had the right to solicit a feed from Jordan or Egypt instead of having their air space controlled by Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


How did a democratic election shut down the democratic process of the PA?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Yeah -- after a bloody fight for control. The Freedom of Gaza was NOT given to Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The WORLD immediately isolated Gaza after the infection that you call an election..
> 
> When is the NEXT PA Election jerk-off? When was the LAST ONE ??


It's none of Israel's fuckin' business who Gazans choose to represent them.  And you do not have any right telling someone else what they can (and cannot) do on their own property.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Figured that was your position. I'm sure we (USA) don't have any right to contain other countries that pose a threat to our security either..


Do Gazans have a right to defend themselves against Israeli occupation?


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah -- after a bloody fight for control. The Freedom of Gaza was NOT given to Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The WORLD immediately isolated Gaza after the infection that you call an election..
> ...


The unwashed electing terrorists makes them terrorists. They don't deserve squat.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Figured that was your position. I'm sure we (USA) don't have any right to contain other countries that pose a threat to our security either..
> ...


They do if they were being occupied. But they ain't being occupied.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Of course they are occupied, or else Israel would not have the right to inspect imports.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Yup.  Here is Monte's idea of a humanitarian ship.  Of course if you ask Monte and Tinmore, Hamas has every right to kill all the Jews it can get its hands on, just like his hero the genocidal Nazi Mufti of Palestine.

Israel intercepts ship with weapons headed to Gaza - CNN.com


----------



## Roudy (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....
> ...



Let a terrorist organization have an airport to launch its attacks from, why not?


----------



## Roudy (Jul 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



So you want the same entity that digs terror tunnels, shoots thousands of rockets at Israel, and is listed as a terrorist organization by both the U.S. and Europe to also have an airport and a radar?  Why not.  Let's just give them nukes. Might as well.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You are really not getting this are you? It's easy..  Israel withdrew from Gaza and a process started to give control to the PA -- INCLUDING (as I posted) the right to a port and commerce and trade. Was ready to talk about reopening the Airport. Discussing connections between West Bank and Gaza thru Israel. In other words -- a MEANINGFUL peace process. Negotiated almost fully with a PA VOID of Hamas. 

Gaza is opened up --- and elections come. The people of Gaza (mainly) TOSSED the peace process and the port and the airport DOWN THE TUBES and choose Hamas as most of their leadership. Fighting ensues, the PA is irretrievably fractured.. At the time Hamas won elections -- the people SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the consequences. That's what an informed democratic electorate does. Thus --- THEY CHOSE militantcy, division of the PA and crapped on the economic future of Gaza --- INSTEAD of a port and an airport. Or access to Egypt. Or any number of GOOD things that might have happened.. Was THEIR decision -- THEIR values and YOU need to live with their decision. 

That WAS no democratic election.. That "election" KILLED the PA as a functional representational govt. As witnessed by the LACK of any meaningful NEW elections or a functioning Congress. THERE IS NO representative govt for Palestine anymore because of their actions.. The terrorists are in charge. 

When elect folks who literally kill each other over political control and never offer FUTURE elections, that's a lot more lot a coup.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah -- after a bloody fight for control. The Freedom of Gaza was NOT given to Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The WORLD immediately isolated Gaza after the infection that you call an election..
> ...



Au Contraire.. Not just Israel, but Egypt. Not just neighbors but most of the civilized world recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization. When you CHOOSE terrrorist organizations as your leadership --- you can expect NO MORE elections. No more peace process. Because --- ANY country that opposes terrorism WILL sanction you.. That's what they chose --- you didn't vote on it. Respect their choice. 

OR --- better yet. WORK to get the Palestinians NEW and RESPONSIBLE leadership that WILL continue to have elections, work to have sanctions removed and CARE about the economic future of the people.. If you gave a flying fuck about Palestinians and their bad situation --- that's what needs to happen..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Gaza is opened up

No it wasn't.

Hamas stopped suicide bombing and offered Israel a long term truce.

I don't understand your bad mouth about Hamas. You aren't making any sense.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Figured that was your position. I'm sure we (USA) don't have any right to contain other countries that pose a threat to our security either..
> ...



They have a right to organize a legitimate representation so that responsible countries and parties can negotiate in good faith.. Right NOW --- there is no functioning Palestinian government. It's all gone backwards since the Hamas purge. Progress was made when Israel pulled out of Gaza. That was because of the highly regarded folks in the PA coming to a bargaining table. This "reverse Zionism" plan that you seem to favor just aint ever gonna improve a single Palestinian life.  There are plenty of "founding fathers" ready to step up for the Palestinians, but there's no hope of progress with an Iranian Terrorist proxy calling the shots. 

You don't "defend yourself" against an occupation gone badly.. You ORGANIZE and debate and plan and impress the world with your good intentions..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Fighting ensues, the PA is irretrievably fractured.. At the time Hamas won elections

You need to read up.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Hamas. Has. Weapons. - Lay. Them. Down.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Tell me why Egypt under several administrations has blockaded the Raffa Gate.  Tell me why Jordan has banned Hamas. Why is Hamas listed as a terrorist organization by even Canada? 

If you elect leadership like that --- do you think there are no international consequences??


----------



## Roudy (Jul 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Meh, if it's not suicide bombing, the animals are shooting rockets into Israel, if they aren't shooting rockets they're building intricate terror tunnels to try to massacre as many Jews as they can. All with money and equipment given to them as "aid".  Savages will be savages.  There is only one way to deal with it, crush them.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and a few Arab nations have declared Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization.  I wonder what took them so long?


----------



## montelatici (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Only military dictatorships funded by the U.S. have blockaded Rafa, only two.  The only democratically elected administration did not. It was not "several" administrations" just two military dictatorships.  Why do you just make things up?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Not to mention dirtbags elected in Israel and some other countries.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> They have a right to organize a legitimate representation so that responsible countries and parties can negotiate in good faith.. Right NOW --- there is no functioning Palestinian government. It's all gone backwards since the Hamas purge. Progress was made when Israel pulled out of Gaza. That was because of the highly regarded folks in the PA coming to a bargaining table. This "reverse Zionism" plan that you seem to favor just aint ever gonna improve a single Palestinian life.  There are plenty of "founding fathers" ready to step up for the Palestinians, but there's no hope of progress with an Iranian Terrorist proxy calling the shots.
> 
> You don't "defend yourself" against an occupation gone badly.. You ORGANIZE and debate and plan and impress the world with your good intentions..


Is that what Polish citizens should've done when the Nazis invaded their country?  Is that what the Jews should've done in the Warsaw Ghetto?  So what you're saying is the Palestinian's have no right to defend themselves?

You are one sick puppy!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Tell me why Egypt under several administrations has blockaded the Raffa Gate.  Tell me why Jordan has banned Hamas. Why is Hamas listed as a terrorist organization by even Canada?
> 
> If you elect leadership like that --- do you think there are no international consequences??


If you wanna go that route, then the Likud Party is a terrorist organization.  Because their roots are in Irgun, which was a Jewish terrorist group.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > They have a right to organize a legitimate representation so that responsible countries and parties can negotiate in good faith.. Right NOW --- there is no functioning Palestinian government. It's all gone backwards since the Hamas purge. Progress was made when Israel pulled out of Gaza. That was because of the highly regarded folks in the PA coming to a bargaining table. This "reverse Zionism" plan that you seem to favor just aint ever gonna improve a single Palestinian life.  There are plenty of "founding fathers" ready to step up for the Palestinians, but there's no hope of progress with an Iranian Terrorist proxy calling the shots.
> ...



They are not effective at defending themselves BECAUSE they lack leadership and vision for peace and prosperity. They are reacting in the same manner as the Native Americans did. Instead of learning the way that modern nations form and develop and coexist, they simply uselessly expend lives in "demonstrations" of force. 

The Poles were utterly defeated and occupied. They didn't NEED organization because 1/2 the world was attempting to bring down the Nazis. Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto resisted bravely because they were not a nation with diplomatic recognition and national resources. And they were not asking to be a recognized nation.. 

Palestinians ARE a doomed displaced people if they don't start thinking more like a nation and less like 16th Century goat herders who have a land beef.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Tell me why Egypt under several administrations has blockaded the Raffa Gate.  Tell me why Jordan has banned Hamas. Why is Hamas listed as a terrorist organization by even Canada?
> ...



Irgun is not currently recognized as a terrorist organization. Your Hamas heroes (according to Egypt today) are assisting ISIL in trying to destabilize the Sinai... TODAY matters.. Just like this topic.. TRADE and ECONOMIES matter. Time for the Palestinians to choose again. WHEN is the next election scheduled for????

Don't blame Israel or me for the decisions that Palestinians made to reject a seaport and airport in favor of Intifada.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> They are not effective at defending themselves BECAUSE they lack leadership and vision for peace and prosperity. They are reacting in the same manner as the Native Americans did. Instead of learning the way that modern nations form and develop and coexist, they simply uselessly expend lives in "demonstrations" of force.
> 
> The Poles were utterly defeated and occupied. They didn't NEED organization because 1/2 the world was attempting to bring down the Nazis. Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto resisted bravely because they were not a nation with diplomatic recognition and national resources. And they were not asking to be a recognized nation..
> 
> Palestinians ARE a doomed displaced people if they don't start thinking more like a nation and less like 16th Century goat herders who have a land beef.


They did start thinking like a modern nation when Hamas and Fatah agreed on a unity government.  Israel attacked.

If the Pals are the ones preventing peace, then why is it Israel always breaking the ceasefires?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Irgun is not currently recognized as a terrorist organization. Your Hamas heroes (according to Egypt today) are assisting ISIL in trying to destabilize the Sinai... TODAY matters.. Just like this topic.. TRADE and ECONOMIES matter. Time for the Palestinians to choose again. WHEN is the next election scheduled for????


Don't go there.  Israel is funding ISIL and providing material support to that terrorist group.




flacaltenn said:


> Don't blame Israel or me for the decisions that Palestinians made to reject a seaport and airport in favor of Intifada.


They didn't reject a seaport or airport.  It's not Israel's decision to make.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Abbas is the only one who can determine that. Only the president can call elections. His term in office expired in January 2009.

The procedure laid out in the constitution is for the speaker of parliament to temporarily assume the office of president and call election within 60 days.

Abbas, with his US armed, paid, and trained security forces will not allow that to happen.


----------



## theliq (Jul 3, 2015)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


What the Zionists..they do already


----------



## Roudy (Jul 3, 2015)

If you ask me they aren't killing enough terrorist scumbags.  I am waiting for the Israelis to take the gloves off and stop fighting with one hand behind their backs.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...





Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Irgun is not currently recognized as a terrorist organization. Your Hamas heroes (according to Egypt today) are assisting ISIL in trying to destabilize the Sinai... TODAY matters.. Just like this topic.. TRADE and ECONOMIES matter. Time for the Palestinians to choose again. WHEN is the next election scheduled for????
> ...



Of COURSE they rejected a seaport and an airport and international trade in general when the Gazans packed the PA with Hamas members. They KNEW the world wasn't gonna allow Hamas to have a base of operations in the Gaza. It was not important to them when they cast their vote. ALL those good things that were poised to happen EVAPORATED because NOBODY will negotiate or recognize Hamas or trust Hamas. In the same way they knew that those things COULD be delivered if the earlier version of the PA continued to negotiate in good faith with Israel..

You folks didnt' vote. You need to accept that's what's the Palis decided they wanted. THERE IS NOBODY to negotiate with. The PA is virtually defunct because of that choice. There will be no more voting... You don't GET THAT ??

They KNEW Egypt would close the crossing. And they knew not many countries in the world would be upset if Israel and Egypt put sanctions on the regime. But they MADE that decision. And that was the LAST DECISION they were able to make democratically..

Israel funding ISIL --- that's rich...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Man you have an answer to everything and it's always MY fault or secret Zionist societies or Abbas being a "tool" of the US. Abbas is the closest thing the Palestinians ever had to a Founding Father and a world class statesman and you shove him in front of the bus because you can't deal with the truth of why there is no more Palestinian government. Or elections. Or Voting. Or Seaports or airports.. 

With friends like you -- Palestinian statehood of any type is a doomed cause..


----------



## Roudy (Jul 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Irgun is not currently recognized as a terrorist organization. Your Hamas heroes (according to Egypt today) are assisting ISIL in trying to destabilize the Sinai... TODAY matters.. Just like this topic.. TRADE and ECONOMIES matter. Time for the Palestinians to choose again. WHEN is the next election scheduled for????
> ...



^^^^^^
This is what happens when you mix drugs with alcohol.  You blabber nonsense like "Israel is funding ISIL".


----------



## Roudy (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Which is why the wise quote: "the Palestiians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" is so lasting.


----------



## Dante (Jul 4, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Latest incident.
> Israel seizes activist flotilla headed to Gaza - Israel News Ynetnews
> Wiki
> Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> ...



I wish Israel and the Pal's would settle their disputes once and for all and let the rest of teh world get along without their incestual bs


----------



## Dante (Jul 4, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




Good gawd, everyone knows it's Obama funding ISIS


----------



## Roudy (Jul 4, 2015)

Dante said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Actually it's Trump who's funding ISIS.  Just the rent he's getting from one of his buildings on 5th avenue in Manhattan is funding the entire ISIS operation.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

Roudy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Never heard that before -- but it fits EXACTLY to the whining about not having free trade access and ports and a functioning govt. Palestinian Arabs need to wake the fuck up and realize what century they are in and what it takes to found a nation in this day and age.* I don't want to see another indigenous people meet with the inevitable fate of extinction because they couldn't grasp the concepts of political organization, diplomacy and deal-making.. *


----------



## Roudy (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



The quote has been used by Golda Meir and many others, including the more recent peace negotiations during the last days of the Clinton era, and is eternally applicable. 

Abba Eban - Wikiquote


The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
As quoted in _The Jerusalem Post_ (18 November 2002); often misquoted as "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." The quote is attributed to Abba Eban after the Geneva Peace Conference with Arab countries (21 December 1973).


----------



## Roudy (Jul 4, 2015)

The next flotilla will be the best!


----------



## Dante (Jul 4, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Donald Trump's entry into the 2016 Presidential race proves the gods have a sense of humor


----------



## Dante (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



The extinction of some indigenous peoples may benefit mankind as a whole. Noble savages? Don't think so. But any people who think it's morally justified to strap bombs onto their children...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

Roudy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Sounds like MANY folks have reached that same conclusion.. And the current stinky position of the Palestinians today --- is testament to that phrase. Israel will never make the mistake again of ceding land to people who aren't as interested in nation building and infrastructure as they are in turning back the clock 3 centuries and re-fighting wars and conflicts. .


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

Dante said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



When there is less value placed on hospitals, ports, and stable honest governing than there is on ancient vendettas and tribal wars --- it's as tho you put our smartest leaders (if we have any of those) 2 centuries into the future and see how they deal with problems and issues they never imagined. Indigenous people can't afford to ignore the calendar and the pace of the world around them.. 

THESE poor folks -- the Palestinians --- would be a trail mix snack for an ISIS invasion of their new "palestine" if they didn't have the will to adapt, build, make friends and thrive..


----------



## Dante (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> When there is less value placed on hospitals, ports, and stable honest governing than there is on ancient vendettas and tribal wars --- it's as tho you put our smartest leaders (if we have any of those) 2 centuries into the future and see how they deal with problems and issues they never imagined. Indigenous people can't afford to ignore the calendar and the pace of the world around them..
> 
> THESE poor folks -- the Palestinians --- would be a trail mix snack for an ISIS invasion of their new "palestine" if they didn't have the will to adapt, build, make friends and thrive..


If the tribal hatreds are so strong we should the rest of us stay out of it. Keep it contained, but stay out of it.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2015)

Roudy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Indeed, they always miss the opportunity to surrender and give away the store.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 So the elections held that saw hamas win where all a sham and not real.

 I believe you are confusing reality with your fantasy world


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...








 Yes it is part of International law


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...







 They stand to gain a lot more than they would lose if they negotiated in good faith. And I have yet to see you produce a valid link to your claims


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Never heard that before -- but it fits EXACTLY to the whining about not having free trade access and ports and a functioning govt. Palestinian Arabs need to wake the fuck up and realize what century they are in and what it takes to found a nation in this day and age.* I don't want to see another indigenous people meet with the inevitable fate of extinction because they couldn't grasp the concepts of political organization, diplomacy and deal-making.. *


How about all these Israeli kiss-asses realize the world wouldn't let Hitler keep Poland and it won't let Israel keep the West Bank?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Sounds like MANY folks have reached that same conclusion.. And the current stinky position of the Palestinians today --- is testament to that phrase. Israel will never make the mistake again of ceding land to people who aren't as interested in nation building and infrastructure as they are in turning back the clock 3 centuries and re-fighting wars and conflicts. .


You can't give what you don't have and you can't cede land that isn't yours.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 4, 2015)

Dante said:


> Good gawd, everyone knows it's Obama funding ISIS


And Israel providing material support.






And sometimes air cover.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Never heard that before -- but it fits EXACTLY to the whining about not having free trade access and ports and a functioning govt. Palestinian Arabs need to wake the fuck up and realize what century they are in and what it takes to found a nation in this day and age.* I don't want to see another indigenous people meet with the inevitable fate of extinction because they couldn't grasp the concepts of political organization, diplomacy and deal-making.. *
> ...







 Only difference is that the West bank is Isreal's by international law, and the UN did not have the authority to stop them claiming it.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like MANY folks have reached that same conclusion.. And the current stinky position of the Palestinians today --- is testament to that phrase. Israel will never make the mistake again of ceding land to people who aren't as interested in nation building and infrastructure as they are in turning back the clock 3 centuries and re-fighting wars and conflicts. .
> ...






 Which is why the UN could not give away land granted to the Jews in 1923, and why the arab muslims could not claim it as theirs.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Only difference is that the West bank is Isreal's by international law, and the UN did not have the authority to stop them claiming it.


And just what international law would that be?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Good gawd, everyone knows it's Obama funding ISIS
> ...







And still cant see the placard saying that he was a terrorist


Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Only difference is that the West bank is Isreal's by international law, and the UN did not have the authority to stop them claiming it.
> ...








 Mandate of Palestine that dictated the extent of the land granted to the Jews for their national home by the lands sovereign rulers


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Which is why the UN could not give away land granted to the Jews in 1923, and why the arab muslims could not claim it as theirs.


There was no UN in 1923, dumbass!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> And still cant see the placard saying that he was a terrorist


And I don't see the one that says he isn't.  But if you go to the link I provided, it says he is.





Phoenall said:


> Mandate of Palestine that dictated the extent of the land granted to the Jews for their national home by the lands sovereign rulers


The Mandate did not give Zionists the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights or East Jerusalem.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Which is why the UN could not give away land granted to the Jews in 1923, and why the arab muslims could not claim it as theirs.
> ...






 Exactly which is why they could not give away Jewish land already granted under international law.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 4, 2015)

Dante said:


> ...The Mandate did not give Zionists the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights or East Jerusalem.


True.

The _Jews_ gave _*themselves*_ the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.

Either way, *they* hold the pink-slip, now.

And much of the world is content that it be so.

Well... that part that *counts*, anyway.

There is no Arab Cavalry coming over the hill to change that.

There will be no sortie by '_the world_' to change that.

So, sit back and enjoy the next few decades, as Israel consolidates and firms-up that ownership, and nudges out those Arabs who are dumb enough to hang around.

It is a fait accompli.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > And still cant see the placard saying that he was a terrorist
> ...







And the source is islamonazi propaganda making it invalid

 Actually it did if you plot these coordinates


*Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory*


PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.​

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

_ North_. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

_ East_. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

_ South_. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

_ West_. – The Mediterranean Sea.




Then this which spells out that the LoN were abiding by promises made


*The Council of the League of Nations:*
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine; and

Whereas the mandate in respect of Palestine has been formulated in the following terms and submitted to the Council of the League for approval; and

Whereas His Britannic Majesty has accepted the mandate in respect of Palestine and undertaken to exercise it on behalf of the League of Nations in conformity with the following provisions; and

Whereas by the afore-mentioned Article 22 (paragraph 8), it is provided that the degree of authority, control or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory, not having been previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, shall be explicitly defined by the Council of the League Of Nations;

confirming the said Mandate, defines its terms as follows:


*ART. 2.*
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

*ART. 3.*
The Mandatory shall, so far as circumstances permit, encourage local autonomy.

*ART. 4.*
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

*ART. 5.*
The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of the Government of any foreign Power.

*ART. 6.*
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

*ART. 7.*
The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.





 Article 5 says that the UN could not give away any of the land granted to the Jews, and as the UN took over the mandate in 1945 they had to abide by its articles.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> ...Which is why the UN could not give away land granted to the Jews in 1923, and why the arab muslims could not claim it as theirs.


It's downright hilarious how these half-assed Guardhouse Lawyers can so easily have their arguments turned-back against them, isn't it? "_*Too* easy, Drill Sergeant !!!_"

_Especially_ the rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth, ignorant dogmatics.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 4, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > ...The Mandate did not give Zionists the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights or East Jerusalem.
> ...



"And much of the world is content that it be so."

Just the U.S.. Israel and a few U.S. puppets.

"Voting by an overwhelming majority — *138 in favour to 9 against *(Canada, Czech Republic, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Panama, Palau, United States), with 41 abstentions — the General Assembly today accorded Palestine non-Member Observer State status in the United Nations."

General Assembly Votes Overwhelmingly to Accord Palestine Non-Member Observer State Status in United Nations Meetings Coverage and Press Releases


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


So Hamas wins the elections and Fatah is running the PA.

Don't you find that odd?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


The Palestinians have gone backward in negotiation for 20 years.

They should stop those foolish negotiations while there is still some Palestine left.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Why did the Zionists accept half of Palestine in 1947 when they received the whole pie 30 years earlier?

It was not like them to be so loos with what they saw as theirs.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ..."And much of the world is content that it be so."...


You can wipe your ass with most UN General Assembly resolutions --- especially those influenced by the Arabs and those who have to kiss their asses, to keep the oil flowing.

We suffer from no such handicap, and act in the manner that many others wish they could afford.

Behind the scenes, many of those fence-sitters are laughing at the Arabs, even while they vote for an occasional piece of toilet paper coming out of the General Assembly.

If 'the world' wants to dislodge Israel, it will have to make war on Israel.

It's one thing to give lip-service to a Palestinian state.

It's quite another to get off your ass, travel several thousand miles, and go to war, and to kill and die, to bring it into reality.

Wake me up when it looks like that's gonna happen.

Meanwhile... the world is sufficiently content, that it be so, to the extent that they aren't willing to actually do anything about it.

There is no cavalry coming over the hill to bail-out the dumbass Palestinians.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Too late.

Nowadays, the joke is... "How many Palestinians can stand on the head of a pin?"

Because that's all they have now... a few scattered postage-sized and disjointed, non-contiguous scraps, that don't add-up to much of anything.

Too late.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 4, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > ..."And much of the world is content that it be so."...
> ...



There is no need to dislodge Israel be force of arms.  By abandoning the two-state solution, demographics will determine the fate of Israel as a Jewish state.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...







How so when Israel starts to evict/deport those who claim to be Palestinians and not Israeli's. You know what you demand the US does to Jews with Israeli citizenship.


 And if the P.A does abandon the two state solution they will be in breach of UN resolutions and the UN charter


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Not for Palestine as they always do the oddest things


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Or make a concerted effort to turn it around and claw back some of the land and concessions. It is theor fault they still negotiate as 7C muslims did, and just demand what they want or else


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...






Numbers that would have meant total annihilation and destruction. So they waited until the numbers where in their favour and declared independence under the terms of the Mandate. That way they had a fighting chance even against the arab league. The arab muslims are still waiting for their 1 million to 1 advantage, and fail to get it when they start fighting amongst themselves.


----------



## Dante (Jul 4, 2015)

After Bebe came to America in a fit of disrespect for diplomatic codes and to spit in the face of our elected President I say -- screw Israel....go fight your war with the Arabs and whoever is left standing we recognize


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ...There is no need to dislodge Israel be force of arms. By abandoning the two-state solution, demographics will determine the fate of Israel as a Jewish state.


Not if the Israelis keep squeezing them off the few postage-stamp -sized slivers of land that they still have, and as Israel settlers continue to rush to fill the vacuum.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 4, 2015)

Dante said:


> After Bebe came to America in a fit of disrespect for diplomatic codes and to spit in the face of our elected President I say -- screw Israel....go fight your war with the Arabs and whoever is left standing we recognize


Nahhhhhh... Bibi came here at the invitation of the US Speaker of the House of Representatives, which, itself, does not trust the present President, in matters of foreign policy.

It was a way for the elected representatives of the People of the United States to reassure a good friend and ally that regardless of what the rather hostile sitting President says or does, that the State of Israel has a friend in the American People, and its House of Representatives, as well as the newly Republican-dominated US Senate.


----------



## Dante (Jul 4, 2015)

Kondor3


Kondor3 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > ...The Mandate did not give Zionists the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights or East Jerusalem.
> ...



Really?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

*Moderation Message*

*All sides are complaining to moderation that this thread is off topic.*
*They are correct.  It is not trolling,  its just nota legal thread when when its been diverted this far.*
*Rather than delete the posts, and try to find where it got derailed.  I am gonna close for an hour or two*
*so that folks see this message. *

*It is up to the members to keep every post in this forum from sounding the same battles over thousands years of history.  Thats a free for all,  not a discussion.  Please take a second to look at the topic before you post.*

*Will reopen in a couple hours. Then please continue THIS topic here.  Or start a new one..  Everyone wins if we all try to do that.*


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

*Bump.  Round 2.*


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 4, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> *Bump.  Round 2.*


Awe man, now what am I going to do with all the malt liquor I just drank?


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > *Bump.  Round 2.*
> ...


Throw up a fresh start.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



It wasnt ALL off topic. Some good themes were there.  I just cant get all irate about inspecting incoming cargo to a government run by Iranian proxy terrorists.  If it was any other tiny sliver of humanity, there would be a full out embargo in place.

Having a responsible government that WANTS ports and sovereign unfettered commerce would solve the problem..  Electing Hamas and destroying the democratic process is a bad move IF you value ports and commerce.  Its really that simple.  Give Billo an hour to sober up  --- or maybe not -- before the thread is at warp speed again..


----------



## montelatici (Jul 5, 2015)

Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 5, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Thing is they do value ports, Israel realized that which is why there is a blockade in the first place, the flotillas attempt falls apart because of their controversial nature. I made a second thread that conjugates from this point regarding Hamas and their intentions, would be nice to see a sober (and fresh) opinion about the use of the ports Hamas values and Hamas intentions.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.



And Hamas are angels walking around with halos on their heads, that's why they are designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. And the West.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 5, 2015)

Dante said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > When there is less value placed on hospitals, ports, and stable honest governing than there is on ancient vendettas and tribal wars --- it's as tho you put our smartest leaders (if we have any of those) 2 centuries into the future and see how they deal with problems and issues they never imagined. Indigenous people can't afford to ignore the calendar and the pace of the world around them..
> ...



Yeah I agree stay out of it, and stop the double standards towards Israel, and stop telling them how to deal with terrorist savages.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.
> ...


In Palestine, where Hamas was elected, Hamas is a constitutionally protected political party.

They are only terrorists to Israel and their name calling lackeys in the west.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...







 Look at the definition of terrorist and you will see that it describes hamas perfectly


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


And Israel much better.

Israel calling Hamas terrorists is like the coal mine calling the kettle black.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 5, 2015)

No evidence of Israeli terrorism outside of your fantasy, but plenty of recorded cases of Palestinian terrorism


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Hamas is "only" a political party?  Do you see Republicans in the U.S. shooting rockets?  Democrats building tunnels?


----------



## Roudy (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



So you think all of Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia, and the U.S. Are "name calling lackeys" of Isrsel?

Tell that to the judge.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 5, 2015)

Hamas was "voted for" fraudulently, and hasn't held elections once it came to power.

Gee, how unusual.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 5, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



There is no difference between Hamas and ISIS.  Other than the territory they control.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.


Of course.

Consequently, the Gazans democratically chose War rather than Peace.

No problem.

Happy to oblige.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 5, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> It wasnt ALL off topic. Some good themes were there.  I just cant get all irate about inspecting incoming cargo to a government run by Iranian proxy terrorists.  If it was any other tiny sliver of humanity, there would be a full out embargo in place.


When that government put up street lights on a Gazan street and the IDF comes in later and shoots out all the lamps at the top, who's the terrorist then?



flacaltenn said:


> Having a responsible government that WANTS ports and sovereign unfettered commerce would solve the problem..  Electing Hamas and destroying the democratic process is a bad move IF you value ports and commerce.  Its really that simple.  Give Billo an hour to sober up  --- or maybe not -- before the thread is at warp speed again..


Hamas is a responsible government.  The only reason they're the bad guy, is because they won't kiss Israel's ass.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 5, 2015)

Roudy said:


> There is no difference between Hamas and ISIS.  Other than the territory they control.


You might be right.  At one time, they were both funded by Israel.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > It wasnt ALL off topic. Some good themes were there.  I just cant get all irate about inspecting incoming cargo to a government run by Iranian proxy terrorists.  If it was any other tiny sliver of humanity, there would be a full out embargo in place.
> ...







The  terrorists are the ones mining schools with H.E firing illegal rockest and forcing families to stay in their homes to act as human shields.

Is that why so many nations have said that they are terrorists and the ICC/ICJ have stated they committed war crimes last summer. Hardly a responsible government unless you are a Nazi Jew Hater


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



It is the armed wing of Hamas and the rabid splinter groups who have rendered Gaza's "duly-elected" gov't terroristic.


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There is no difference between Hamas and ISIS.  Other than the territory they control.
> ...



Silly camel crap.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2015)

SAYIT said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



And besides, it's been almost a decade since Hamas was"duly elected".  Time for new elections anyway.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > It wasnt ALL off topic. Some good themes were there.  I just cant get all irate about inspecting incoming cargo to a government run by Iranian proxy terrorists.  If it was any other tiny sliver of humanity, there would be a full out embargo in place.
> ...


This is why you can't be president,  your observation is shallowed.
First let's agree to disagree that a loss of lamps in evacuated Gazan street is not important as 18-21 years old soldiers about to get ambushed by a hostile government lurking inside hospitals and medical clinics...So let's move on to the opening part in your post where you talk about the source of the electricity, maintenance,  and infrastructure.. Hamas?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,

Yes, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a both an Islamic Organization by Charter, and a Political Party _(headed by:  Khaled Meshal, Chairman, Politburo of the Islamic Resistance Movement)_ and the hub of a larger terrorist organization that uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the removal of the State of Israel.  HAMAS is political, but we cannot forget that it has its own paramilitary wing called the Izz al Din Qassam Brigades (AQB) that is directed, funded and equipped by HAMAS; which has been responsible for most of the violence directed towards Israel.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hamas is "only" a political party?  Do you see Republicans in the U.S. shooting rockets?  Democrats building tunnels?





P F Tinmore said:


> In Palestine, where Hamas was elected, Hamas is a constitutionally protected political party.
> 
> They are only terrorists to Israel and their name calling lackeys in the west.


*(KEY COMPONENTS)*

First, the January 2006 Palestinian Parliamentary Elections, that brought HAMAS to the forefront, is now well over eight (8) years old.  Whatever mandate the elections gave HAMAS eight years ago, has long since expired.  The Palestinian Government has not been able to make a smooth Constitutional transition of government since the Constitution was written over a decade ago.  Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, which created the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), the PNA acted as the interim administrative body established to administer the governmental institutions necessary for the West Bank.  In 2012, the PNA essentially became the government for the State of Palestine when the UN decided to "accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people," (A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012).

The trouble here is that HAMAS _(a Palestinian Islamic organization)_ has rejected two key elements that have survived for three decades in Palestine:

HAMAS rejects the PLO (secular) as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinians,
_Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974 _
_Having heard_ the statement of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people, A/RES/3236 (XXIX) 22 November 1974
ANNEX II Political Communiqué and ANNEX III Palestinian Declaration of Independence

HAMAS rejects the Oslo Accords.
Oslo I Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements
Oslo II Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

HAMAS has a mantra ---- besides that of Jihad ---- in both the Covenant and its official Political Position:

No recognition of the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation
No recognition of "Israel"
Israel-PLO Recognition: Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat - In connection with the Oslo Accords

No legitimacy of Israel's presence in any part of Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south
A/RES/273 (III) 11 May 1949 UN _Decides_ to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations

HAMAS is becoming a regional threat.  In addition to HAMAS insisting it is Entitled To Attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide – It also claims it has the right to attack The Interests Of Israel's Allies; as well as the US.

*(COMMENT)*

HAMAS is not just a political party.  It is a regional danger; not just by itself --- but by the bad pennies it attracts.  HAMAS and the Gaza Strip have developed an attraction for DAESH _(Islamic State or Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant)_ that is attempting to establish itself on the Egyptian/Sinai Border region of the Gaza Strip and Israel.

It is rumored that a video, produced DAESH in the last week of June, is now making the rounds in the region.  It is directed at the Palestinians (HAMAS and Fatah).  The DAESH Jihadist accuses HAMAS of being soft in enforcing religious law in the Palestinian enclave it controls.

“We will uproot the state of the Jews [Israel] and you [Hamas] and Fatah [in the West Bank], and all of the secularists are nothing and you will be overrun by our creeping multitudes,” a masked Islamic State member said in the recorded message addressed to the “tyrants of Hamas.”

“The rule of Sharia [Islamic law] will be implemented in Gaza, in spite of you. We swear that what is happening in the Levant today, and in particular the Yarmouk camp [in Syria], will happen in Gaza,” he said, in reference to the besieged Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus.
_*SOURCE:*_ Islamic State militant was booted from Hamas
*SOURCE:* Daesh threatens to overthrow Hamas in Gaza
SOURCE:   ISIS Threatens To Topple Hamas In Gaza​
HAMAS and Fatah may have more to worry about then its feud with Israel.  If DAESH gets a firm foothold in the Gaza Strip from the Sinai --- it will probably cause Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to get involved; inadvertently expanding the conflict.

YES, HAMAS is much much more than just an irritant politically.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


It is. Too bad that Abbas will not let that happen.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,
> 
> Yes, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a both an Islamic Organization by Charter, and a Political Party _(headed by:  Khaled Meshal, Chairman, Politburo of the Islamic Resistance Movement)_ and the hub of a larger terrorist organization that uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the removal of the State of Israel.  HAMAS is political, but we cannot forget that it has its own paramilitary wing called the Izz al Din Qassam Brigades (AQB) that is directed, funded and equipped by HAMAS; which has been responsible for most of the violence directed towards Israel.
> 
> ...


Hamas is not corrupt. It will defend its people. It will not give away the store.

You can't say any of that about Fatah.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,
> ...


Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is *WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.*


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,
> ...







Is that why it engineered the deaths of 2000 just last year, I would not call that defending the people but massacring them


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 5, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
> What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is *WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.*


If that was true, then why is it Israel breaking all the ceasefires?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 5, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> This is why you can't be president,  your observation is shallowed.
> First let's agree to disagree that a loss of lamps in evacuated Gazan street is not important as 18-21 years old soldiers about to get ambushed by a hostile government lurking inside hospitals and medical clinics...So let's move on to the opening part in your post where you talk about the source of the electricity, maintenance,  and infrastructure.. Hamas?


I can be President and you would vote for me because you know its good for the country.

As for the lamps, street improvements is not terrorism.  Shooting the lamps out from people who have no legal right to be in the area, is terrorism.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > This is why you can't be president,  your observation is shallowed.
> ...



Daniyel is Israeli, not American, so I don't think he can vote for you.  Maybe you can get Trump to pick you as his running mate.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
> ...


What does Israel have to do with Hamas corruption or Tinmore's assessments? Read the previous posts...


----------



## Roudy (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > It wasnt ALL off topic. Some good themes were there.  I just cant get all irate about inspecting incoming cargo to a government run by Iranian proxy terrorists.  If it was any other tiny sliver of humanity, there would be a full out embargo in place.
> ...



No dumbass, Hamas are the bad guys because they're an Islamic terrorist organization that targets innocent civilians while hiding behind their own.  They fully fulfil the criteria required by our govt and many other Western govt. to qualify as a terrorist organization. 


Foreign Terrorist Organization Designation

*1. What are the different types of designations? *There are two kinds of designations*. *Groups can be designated as _Foreign Terrorist Organizations_ under the Immigration and Nationality Act. Under Executive Order 13224 a wider range of entities, including terrorist groups, individuals acting as part of a terrorist organization, and other entities such as financiers and front companies, can be designated as _Specially Designated Global Terrorists_ (SDGTs).

*2. Who can designate FTOs and SDGTs?*
The Department of State is authorized to designate FTOs and SDGTs, while the Department of the Treasury designates only SDGTs. Both departments pursue these designations in cooperation with the Department of Justice. All of the Department of State’s designations can be found at: http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/index.htm. All State FTO and EO designations can also be found at the Treasury OFAC website.

*3. What are the criteria for designation?*
The Secretary of State designates *Foreign Terrorist Organizations* in accordance with section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act. The legal criteria for designating Foreign Terrorist Organizations are:

The organization must be foreign based.
The organization engages in terrorist activity or terrorism, or retains the capability and intent to engage in terrorist activity or terrorism.
The terrorist activity or terrorism of the organization threatens the security of United States nationals or national security of the United States.
For *Executive Order 13224*, The Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of the Treasury and the Attorney General, may designate foreign individuals or entities that he determines have committed, or pose a significant risk of committing, acts of terrorism that threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the U.S.; or, the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Attorney General, may designate individuals or entities that are determined:


To be owned or controlled by, or act for or on behalf of an individual or entity listed in the Annex to the Order or by or for persons determined to be subject to the Order;
To assist in, sponsor, or provide financial, material, or technological support for, or financial or other services to or in support of, acts of terrorism or individuals or entities designated in or under the Order; or
To be otherwise associated with certain individuals or entities designated in or under the Order.

*4. What makes you decide to designate or not designate a group or entity?*Within the Department of State, the Bureau of Counterterrorism identifies and evaluates possible individuals or organizations for designation. Other Departments also recommend designation targets.

*5. How long does the process take?*
For *Foreign Terrorist Organizations*, once an organization is identified, we prepare a detailed "administrative record," which is a compilation of information, typically including both classified and open source information, demonstrating that the statutory criteria for designation have been satisfied.

If the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury, decides to make the designation, Congress is notified of the Secretary’s intent to designate the organization seven days before the designation is published in the Federal Register, as section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act requires.
Upon the expiration of the seven-day waiting period and in the absence of Congressional action to block the designation, notice of the designation is published in the _Federal Register_, at which point the designation takes effect.
For *Specially Designated Global Terrorists*, once the Secretary of State or the Secretary of the Treasury designates an individual or entity, the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) of the Department of the Treasury takes appropriate action to block the assets of the individual or entity in the United States or in the possession or control of U.S. persons, including notification of the blocking order to U.S. financial institutions, directing them to block the assets of the designated individual or entity.


Notice of the designation is also published in the _Federal Register_. OFAC also adds the individual or entity to its list of Specially Designated Nationals, by identifying such individuals or entities as Specially Designated Global Terrorists (SDGTs), and posts a notice of this addition on the OFAC website.
Designations remain in effect until the designation is revoked or the Executive Order lapses or is terminated in accordance with U.S. law.

*6. What are the consequences of a designation? *

*Executive Order*:

With limited exceptions set forth in the Order, or as authorized by OFAC, all property and interests in property of designated individuals or entities that are in the United States or that come within the United States, or that come within the possession or control of U.S. persons are blocked.
With limited exceptions set forth in the Order, or as authorized by OFAC, any transaction or dealing by U.S. persons or within the United States in property or interests in property blocked pursuant to the Order is prohibited, including but not limited to the making or receiving of any contribution of funds, goods, or services to or for the benefit of individuals or entities designated under the Order.
Any transaction by any U.S. person or within the United States that evades or avoids, or has the purpose of evading or avoiding, or attempts to violate, any of the prohibitions in the Order is prohibited. Any conspiracy formed to violate any of the prohibitions is also prohibited.
Civil and criminal penalties may be assessed for violations.
*Foreign Terrorist Organization*:

It is unlawful for a person in the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to knowingly provide "material support or resources" to a designated FTO.
Representatives and members of a designated FTO, if they are aliens, are inadmissible to and, in certain circumstances, removable from the United States
Any U.S. financial institution that becomes aware that it has possession of or control over funds in which a designated FTO or its agent has an interest must retain possession of or control over the funds and report the funds to the Office of Foreign Assets Control of the U.S. Department of the Treasury.
Supports our efforts to curb terrorism financing and to encourage other nations to do the same.
Stigmatizes and isolates designated terrorist organizations internationally.
Deters donations or contributions to and economic transactions with named organizations.
Heightens public awareness and knowledge of terrorist organizations.
Signals to other governments our concern about named organizations.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > This is why you can't be president,  your observation is shallowed.
> ...


First of all I'm against Socialism, next let me inform you it's all made by Israel including the electricity provided to Gaza, my pocket, does this count an international aid or perhaps Israel's property?  (In case you dont get it - Hamas didn't bend a finger for that)

Now you just happened to say something very interesting, technically it's "out of" but I assume you meant "by" ---
"people who have no legal right to be in the area"
Why does Israelis have no right to be in this area?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Angus Martyn in a briefing paper for the Australian Parliament has stated that *"The international community has never succeeded in developing an accepted comprehensive definition of terrorism. *During the 1970s and 1980s, *the United Nations attempts to define the term foundered mainly due to differences of opinion between various members about the use of violence in the context of conflicts over national liberation and self-determination."*[4] These divergences have made it impossible to conclude a Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism that incorporates a single, all-encompassing, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism.[5]

As Bruce Hoffman has noted: "terrorism is a pejorative term. It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that *is generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees *and would otherwise prefer to ignore. (...) Hence the decision to call someone or label some organization 'terrorist' becomes almost unavoidably subjective, depending largely on whether one sympathizes with or opposes the person/group/cause concerned.

Definitions of terrorism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia​
Terrorism is political name calling.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ...Terrorism is political name calling.


Classic example of Moral Relativism and Faux Equivalency...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.



We keep bumping into this "elected democratically" phrase here. Perhaps they were. But did they run on a platform to normalize relations in a way that would KEEP the PA agreements made with Israel to reopen the airport and seaport? Need an answer there. WHAT was their position??? It was clear that Fatah and the PA SUPPORTED the negotiations for sovereign control of those things. 

And I called it coupe before. Wasn't exactly.. But it wasn't an election either. Because the sequence of events went something like "election" -- purge and civil war --- no more "elections" ever... Was that sequence of event WORTH IT to the Palestinian people? Is that the kind of "national representation" that they want and need? I see the "election" more as a betting pool on the winner of the eventual civil war and purge.. 

Why  don't you post a thread on all the good things that Hamas promised in their "election" ? And what the Palestinians have given up by making that choice..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.
> ...


Hamas - 2006 Electoral Campaign Platform - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



There is no use for a "constitutionally protected party" if there can be no more working government or elections. 
You can't argue that is a GOOD thing for the prospect of a Palestinian state. (i suppose you could -- but your sincerity about the plight of the Palestinians would come into question).. Hamas is the PRIMARY reason those ports are not functioning and working for the Palestinian people.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > It wasnt ALL off topic. Some good themes were there.  I just cant get all irate about inspecting incoming cargo to a government run by Iranian proxy terrorists.  If it was any other tiny sliver of humanity, there would be a full out embargo in place.
> ...



Streetlights? Well I guess that's the same value system that chose Hamas over commerce. IDF was THERE because of Hamas.. And shooting streetlights is a smart way to fight a dense urban conflict. As opposed to placing military command and forces in schools and hospitals.. 

So --- you believe the Palestinians are better off with no more elections,  no sovereign controlled commerce or ports under Hamas? How far towards nationhood status do you believe Hamas will take them?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Gaza's airport and seaport were bombed by Israel years before Hamas was elected.

Abbas needs  to step down and allow elections. He is on the tenth year of a four year term.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I saw nothing in their priorities about SeaPorts or Airports or infrastructure or education. Just war.. 
A political party with an AK rifle in their insignia.. This is not ZIONISM of a more vicious type? 

It's actually appalling PF.. Completely and utterly appalling.. Especially the enumerated priorities. 

_*The Change and reform List adopts a number of approaches to fulfill fixed aims emanating from Islamic references - namely:
*_


_*1. Islam is our Reference.

2. Palestine is Arab and Muslim Land.

3. Palestinians are one nation regardless of location.

4. The Palestinian People are still in the process of National Liberation and have the right to use all means including armed struggle to achieve this goal.
*_


_*5. The right of return to all Palestinians.

6. Adherence to the inalienable rights of the people.

7. Protect and cement National Unity as a priority.

8. The issue of prisoners and detainees tops the agenda ; on the internal policy level the C&R aims at achieving a great number of objectives - among them: Maintaining Palestinian fixed National Aims; Palestinian presence in Jerusalem; political freedom; dialogue as a means to solving internal differences; freedom of expression; assembling movement.

9. The platform of the C&R prohibits: Political detention; shedding Palestinian blood; protection of civil society; directing the security apparatus to safeguarding the security of the citizens.
*_
_*Among other things the Platform calls for protecting the "Resistance" and enhancing its role

 to resist Occupation and achieve Liberation.
*_
What's particularly appalling is that #9.. Given the Hamas penchant for executing Palis in the street without due process. This does not sound like a "party" that gives a WHIT about what normal nations do. They do not value Seaports and Airports. They do not value diplomacy or democracy...  Palestinian people are DOOMED with this kind of leadership and NOW --- they appear to be stuck with it. 

Their only hope is that the larger Arab conflict will wipe Iranian proxy terrorists out of the Holy Land and give them another chance to have a real nation..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Already covered that PF.. The withdrawal from Gaza by Israel came with a detailed plan for REOPENING those ports -- the purge and civil war ended any chances of that happening.  And as you NOW KNOW --- Hamas doesn't value ports and commerce the way a normal nation does. That's why these flotillas are NOT effective at changing public opinion. Not in Israel. Not in Egypt. Not in the US. And probably not among many Palestinians. 

Any POLLS taken to show how satisfied the Palestinians are with the results of the Hamas take-over of their movement?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Applying terrorism, as a descriptive term to the actions of crimes that are committed in order to intimidate, coerce and inflame a population or government is NOT "political name calling."

I can cherry pick Dr Hoffman's material as well.

"Terrorism is thus violence -- or, equally important, the threat of violence -- used and directed in pursuit of, or in service of, a political aim."
*SOURCE: * Inside Terrorism By BRUCE HOFFMAN  Columbia University Press​A N D​
This trend towards ever more convoluted semantic obfuscations to side-step terrorism's pejorative overtones has, if anything, become more entrenched in recent decades. Terrorist organizations almost without exception now regularly select names for themselves that consciously eschew the word `terrorism' in any of its forms. Instead these groups actively seek to evoke images of:

This trend towards ever more convoluted semantic obfuscations to side-step terrorism's pejorative overtones has, if anything, become more entrenched in recent decades. Terrorist organizations almost without exception now regularly select names for themselves that consciously eschew the word `terrorism' in any of its forms. Instead these groups actively seek to evoke images of:

√ freedom and liberation (e.g. the National Liberation Front, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Freedom for the Basque Homeland, etc.);

√ armies or other military organizational structures (e.g. the National Military Organization, the Popular Liberation Army, the Fifth Battalion of the Liberation Army, etc.);

√ actual self-defence movements (e.g. the Afrikaner Resistance Movement, the Shankhill Defence Association, the Organization for the Defence of the Free People, the Jewish Defense Organization, etc.);

√ righteous vengeance (the Organization for the Oppressed on Earth, the Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide, the Palestinian Revenge Organization, etc.);freedom and liberation (e.g. the National Liberation Front, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Freedom for the Basque Homeland, etc.);​
You just can't apply little sound-bites and expect to convey something meaningful.  It might be worth remembering that "enemy" and the contemporary use of "Nazi" are "pejorative terms" as well; expressing contempt or disapproval.



P F Tinmore said:


> Angus Martyn in a briefing paper for the Australian Parliament has stated that *"The international community has never succeeded in developing an accepted comprehensive definition of terrorism. *During the 1970s and 1980s, *the United Nations attempts to define the term foundered mainly due to differences of opinion between various members about the use of violence in the context of conflicts over national liberation and self-determination."*[4] These divergences have made it impossible to conclude a Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism that incorporates a single, all-encompassing, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism.[5]
> 
> As Bruce Hoffman has noted: "terrorism is a pejorative term. It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that *is generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees *and would otherwise prefer to ignore. (...) Hence the decision to call someone or label some organization 'terrorist' becomes almost unavoidably subjective, depending largely on whether one sympathizes with or opposes the person/group/cause concerned.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Dr Hoffman may say that terrorism is a term expressing contempt or disapproval; it is not the only thing he had to say as to what "terrorism is."  He was the first Director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence (CSTPV), and a member on the 9/11 Review Commission.  

The Palestinian attack during the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich, was and act of terrorism.   You may not be able to define it to everyones satisfaction, BUT you will know it when you see it.

The lead-up to the 2014 Israeli-Gaza Conflict _(AKA: Operation Protective Edge)_ was peppered will less dramatic events, but none the less inflict the same introduction of fear in order to further a political agenda.

HAMAS attempted to blackmail _(hold the ceasefire hostage)_ Israel by demanding _(a ransom) _that Israel: 

End all attacks on Gaza; 
Release those re-arrested during the crackdown in the West Bank; 
Lift the blockade on Gaza; 
Return to the cease-fire conditions of 2012 as conditions for a ceasefire.
You may hold the Islamic Resistance Movement in high esteem, but the fact of the matter is that since their inception, they have established a long and bloody history of past criminal behaviors that have instilled fear in various cultures and countries.

You cannot be a freedom fighter and still follow Jihad with terrorism as your principle tool.
The Palestinians have absolutely nothing to be proud of in their history --- nothing at all.

Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 5, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ...Hamas ...will defend its people...



Some defense...








> ...It will not give away the store...



Don't look now, but there is no store _left_ to give away...








> ...You can't say any of that about Fatah.


True.

What they _can_ say is that _Fatah_ did not bring about the ruin of Gaza... _Hamas_ did.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Applying terrorism, as a descriptive term to the actions of crimes that are committed in order to intimidate, coerce and inflame a population or government is NOT "political name calling."
> 
> ...


"Terrorism is thus violence -- or, equally important, the threat of violence -- used and directed in pursuit of, or in service of, a political aim."​
Indeed, and the Zionist political aim for over a hundred years is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. That can't be done without terrorism.

The Palestinian's actions are to resist this stated takeover.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Applying terrorism, as a descriptive term to the actions of crimes that are committed in order to intimidate, coerce and inflame a population or government is NOT "political name calling."
> 
> ...


HAMAS attempted to blackmail _(hold the ceasefire hostage)_ Israel by demanding _(a ransom) _that Israel: 

End all attacks on Gaza;


Hamas wanted a ceasefire that would end attacks on Gaza?

You have to admit, Rocco, that is a fucking bizarre demand.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 5, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


We have seen Tinmore stick up for Hamas constantly so should we be surprised that even though Tinmore supposedly lives in the U.S. he was allowed to vote for Hamas?


----------



## theliq (Jul 5, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ...Hamas ...will defend its people...
> ...


What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So Israel had NO PART IN THIS DESTRUCTION,I ????? your morality Kondie,considering Israel fired over 66,000 bombs and shells into Gaza a year ago,creating 2000 deaths and continued trauma for Palestinian children inparticular..................your logic is somewhat skewed.

steve


----------



## theliq (Jul 5, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Not so quick Hoss,considering it was the US and Israel that supported,armed and gave cash for the inception of Hamas in the first place...then demanded FREE AND FAIR,OPEN ELECTIONS of which Hamas was voted in,in Gaza.........your crocodile tears today seem somewhat Hypocritical don't you think ??? steve


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 5, 2015)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Daniyel said:
> ...


*B-b-b-but Hamas is now a terrorist organization. Haven't you heard?*


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2015)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Daniyel said:
> ...




When did the US "support, arm and give cash" to Hamas? Or Israel for that matter?
Hamas was voted into GAZA, split the functional govt of the  Palestinians and left them (after a bloody political fight) with no more elections, no more chance to become a nation, and no chance at handling open international commerce on their own (which is what this thread is about). 

Hamas is the principal reason why there are no open Seaports or Airports in Gaza. That's why there's no propaganda value in these "humanitarian flotillas".. Did you READ the Hamas "political platform" that PF posted? Think THAT represents the best chance for the Palestinians to become an independent nation or have a decent standard of living? Where are THOSE things in the values that Hamas represents.?? 

All this whining about being isolated barricaded, and confined are because there is NO political organization of the Palestinians after Hamas moved in..


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 5, 2015)

theliq said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Don't make war on Israel, and Israel will not make war on you.

Don't dig commando-sortie tunnels underneath the Gaza-Israel border and the IDF won't bomb them into a collapse.

Don't fire rockets at Israeli civilian population centers and the IDF won't bomb those launchers.

Don't embed your war assets (launchers, command centers, barracks, sally-ports, munitions caches, etc.) within residential neighborhoods and in mosques and hospitals and schools, and don't hide behind the skirts of your women and children, and the IDF won't bomb those assets and cause substantive collateral casualties and damage.

These were all threats to Israeli security that Hamas intentionally served up.

Gazans have no one to blame but themselves for voting into power a cowardly terrorist organization sworn to (and taking actions to) attack and destroy Israel.

Don't want to see your friends and neighbors and family killed?

Don't vote for idiots (Hamas) who are going to create the conditions by which that becomes inevitable.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 5, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 5, 2015)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Daniyel said:
> ...


Battle of Gaza 2007 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
This was the last free and fair, opened elections.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 6, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


There is a lot of confusion about Hamas and Gaza. Israel did not create Hamas. Israel did, however, allow Hamas to build itself into a sizable charity organization. I hear that Israel allowed Hamas, a religious organization, to be a counter to Fatah/PLO who nationalistic. To Israel's dismay, Hamas formed a military wing in 1988.

Hamas was not elected "in Gaza." The elections were for the PA that covered the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas won the majority of seats in the PLC (parliament) in 2006 that gave them the right to form a government. This government was approved by the PLC as required by their constitution and sworn in by Abbas. This was only a few months after Israel's disengagement from Gaza.

Of course Israel did not like this government. Another government was formed in 2007 but this post is getting long. I can fill you in on that one if you like.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 6, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 6, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



And PF thinks that it is ME who is confused about Hamas usurping control of Gaza.. It was a purge.. After the betting was placed in the real "election".. You can't call it an election -- if the results END future elections. 

Can you?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 6, 2015)

Anyway -- are we done with flotillas? No one is making me feel guilty for not caring. The Seaport issue goes back to the Pali public choices, the civil war and the end of any functional Pali government responsible for inspecting cargo and living up to internationally accepted standards.

I like the Rose Parade flotillas on Thanksgiving Day better anyway..


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 6, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
> ...







Only in your fantasy world that puts Israel's retaliations to breaches of the cease fire as the first incident. Read the terms of the cease fire that hamas agreed and see what they have to stop doing.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 6, 2015)

Only in your fantasy world that really needs to be looked at by your social worker. It was left up to individual nations to define terrorism, and most use the same definition which is in the same link you have just used

 In the meantime, the international community adopted a series of sectoral conventions that define and criminalize various types of terrorist activities. In addition, since 1994, the United Nations General Assembly has condemned terrorist acts using the following political description of terrorism: *"Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance **unjustifiable**, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."


 Sounds about right for hamas as they are ideological and religous*


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 6, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...







 And hamas broke their own rules within 24 hours of being elected so what was your point ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 6, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






And if the arab muslims were not intent on using them for terrorist purposes after the start of the al aqsa intifada.

 It is hamas that needs to step down as they are the ones holding up the elections by refusing to meet and set a date. They have usurped their power over the last 8 years of a 4 year term


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 6, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Go ahead, fill us in.  So Hamas won the election in 2006, and a gov't was formed in 2007.  continue...


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 6, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Streetlights? Well I guess that's the same value system that chose Hamas over commerce. IDF was THERE because of Hamas.. And shooting streetlights is a smart way to fight a dense urban conflict. As opposed to placing military command and forces in schools and hospitals..
> 
> So --- you believe the Palestinians are better off with no more elections,  no sovereign controlled commerce or ports under Hamas? How far towards nationhood status do you believe Hamas will take them?


It's obvious you're so morally vapid that you will make up any excuse for Israeli actions.  There is no line they can cross, no action so horrific, that you won't make up some bullshit excuse over.

Street improvements is not terrorism.  Shooting out the lamps at the top, is just mean.  So is defending pieces of IDF shit, like you do on a constant basis. You're argument is disgusting to all of humanity.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 6, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> What does Israel have to do with Hamas corruption or Tinmore's assessments? Read the previous posts...


You said they're carrying a war against Israel.  If they were, why is Israel the one breaking the ceasefires?

There's something wrong with that picture.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 6, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> First of all I'm against Socialism, next let me inform you it's all made by Israel including the electricity provided to Gaza, my pocket, does this count an international aid or perhaps Israel's property?  (In case you dont get it - Hamas didn't bend a finger for that)
> 
> Now you just happened to say something very interesting, technically it's "out of" but I assume you meant "by" ---
> "people who have no legal right to be in the area"
> Why does Israelis have no right to be in this area?


Gaza isn't Israel.

You have no right doing whatever you fucking please, on someone else's property.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 6, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Daniyel is Israeli, not American, so I don't think he can vote for you.  Maybe you can get Trump to pick you as his running mate.


I was a Republican for 20 years; then I grew up.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 6, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniyel is Israeli, not American, so I don't think he can vote for you.  Maybe you can get Trump to pick you as his running mate.
> ...


I was a life long Republican too.

Bush cured me of that.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 6, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Streetlights? Well I guess that's the same value system that chose Hamas over commerce. IDF was THERE because of Hamas.. And shooting streetlights is a smart way to fight a dense urban conflict. As opposed to placing military command and forces in schools and hospitals..
> ...



While you are carrying on about streetlamps, the Palestinians have no organized govt, no international organized diplomacy, no chance at Statehood. Because the thug party that ENDED all that has an Assault Rifle on their official seal !!!!! Wouldn't look good on formal UN Correspondence would it now????

Unlike you --- I actually CARE that the Palestinians are politically fractured and going nowhere. And I really really can't blame Israel, Zionists or the Pope for that. What I'd like to know is where THEIR values and aspirations are. Is it in bloody endless Intifada --- or getting on with life and HAVING a Seaport, Airport and a seat at the UN. With REAL diplomats that get along with at least SOME of their neighbors. 

That's my argument. And it's a shitload more humane than yours..


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 6, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Israel did not fail to maintain the sewage system, they left and gave control to the palestinians.
Israel did not fail to pay for fuel to keep the electric generators on.  That was a dispute between hamas and the PA.
Israel did not close the crossing to egypt or dig illegal tunnels into the sinai.  Hamas did.
Tons of supplies get delivered to gaza by Israel but hamas does not distribute items till after expiration date.
Building supplies are taken by hamas for tunnels instead of repair of buildings, many stolen from UN and NGOs.

Palestinians need to face the fact that their own have more to do with their situation and misery than Israel does.  They need to fix their own problems instead of blaming Israel for everything.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 6, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



I think AT PRESENT -- that is the situation. So there are 2 possibilities.. 

1 -- Hamas has such complete and tyrannical hold on Gaza that folks have no power to change or resist. 
2 -- They are STILL committed to the Intifada ways that they voted for about 10 years ago and don't regret that decision and don't value all that infrastructure, improvements in economics and education or advancing towards Statehood. 

During the last Hamas rocket hissy fits -- I saw some polling of "palestinians" that indicted they were somewhat evenly divided on the tactic.. Don't know (or dont remember) whether this was just Gazans or Palis as a whole were polled. I think the best thing to happen might be to find out what Palestinians really think and want rather than sit here and argue about history, the crappy status quo, and who to blame..Because from the actions and recent history -- it appears they don't give a damn about anything related to running a respectable nation.. 

Hope that is not true..


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > What does Israel have to do with Hamas corruption or Tinmore's assessments? Read the previous posts...
> ...


You missed the part where you suppose to relate to actual facts .
1.Israel didn't break any ceasefire,we went through this several times in the past.
2.Theoretically speaking - if Israel DID break ALL ceasefires in the past, how does it conjugate with Hamas's aim to launch indiscriminate war against all Israel's Jews? - there is no question of ceasefire when your enemy intending to eradicate you, and need a small break to get stronger. 
3.Hamas is a corrupted terrorist organization (yes, a terrorist organization can also become corrupted) - this is the subject of the debate.
4.Hamas is not intending to protect the Gazans, not even in the near future IMHO, Tinmore claimed differently - even different from Hamas themselves.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > First of all I'm against Socialism, next let me inform you it's all made by Israel including the electricity provided to Gaza, my pocket, does this count an international aid or perhaps Israel's property?  (In case you dont get it - Hamas didn't bend a finger for that)
> ...


Hold on horsey, you don't make the rules yet.
Is there any legit ground to forbid Israelis from entering Gaza?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 7, 2015)

Here's an example of where Gazans might value ports and commerce over perpetual war..

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy

_*Today's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities. Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether.

These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent. This is the only credible Palestinian poll taken since the mid-June West Bank kidnapping incident, Israel's subsequent searches and arrests, and the start of the current crisis (for more on the survey, see PolicyWatch 2276, "New Palestinian Poll Shows Hardline Views, But Some Pragmatism Too").*_






Seriously -- Is this REAL??? If so, Hamas has a reason to keep impeding "democracy"..


----------



## Roudy (Jul 7, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Denial is not a river in Egypt, but for you Pali Nazi supporters, it is. 

Support for Israel runs extremely strong across both parties and an overwhelming majority of public.

*House UNANIMOUSLY Stands Up for Israel Against Hamas*

*US Senate Passes Bipartisan Resolution In Support of Israel*

*Senate Resolution Unanimously Welcomes Netanyahu - 02/28/2015*

*Gallup Poll: Seven in Ten Americans Continue To View Israel Favorably *

*New Poll Shows Strong American Support For Israel*
*
Fuck Obama!*


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 7, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Daniyel said:
> ...



Hamas has been the one rejecting negotiation with either the PA, Egypt or Israel.  It has been the unreasonable block to peace.
When so many gazans would leave gaza if they could, you know they do not have support from the masses.  Most palestinians want some sort of peace with Israel.  Hamas is still in support with terrorists in the sinai against the Egyptian government.  Egypt has removed hundreds of tunnels and bull dozed thousands of homes in the sinai.  They have had crossing open only a few days each year for the last few years.  "Hamas" not welcome!
Hamas has blocked elections.  In the PA, the government shut down hamas college candidates and in the last few days arrest dozens of hamas terrorist and fighters.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > What does Israel have to do with Hamas corruption or Tinmore's assessments? Read the previous posts...
> ...







 Because they are not, they are responding to Palestinian breaches of the ceasefire. Just look at the facts and see how the Palestinians will encroach on the Israel positions to incite a response and then claim that the IDF fired on them for no reason. You being consumed with Nazi Jew Hatred believe the Palestinian side because you don't want to lose that Jew Hatred.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > First of all I'm against Socialism, next let me inform you it's all made by Israel including the electricity provided to Gaza, my pocket, does this count an international aid or perhaps Israel's property?  (In case you dont get it - Hamas didn't bend a finger for that)
> ...







 Try reading the Geneva Conventions, and then try getting an appointment with your doctor about your all consuming Jew hatred


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 7, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Israel did not fail to maintain the sewage system, they left and gave control to the palestinians.
> Israel did not fail to pay for fuel to keep the electric generators on.  That was a dispute between hamas and the PA.
> Israel did not close the crossing to egypt or dig illegal tunnels into the sinai.  Hamas did.
> Tons of supplies get delivered to gaza by Israel but hamas does not distribute items till after expiration date.
> ...


If there was no blockade, I would agree with you.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 7, 2015)

Israel is the only block to peace.  Israel does not want a sovereign Palestinian state.

_"_The prospect of a Palestinian state is nil so long as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stays in office, Netanyahu said in a Monday interview."

Netanyahu No Palestinian state on my watch - CNN.com


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Israel did not fail to maintain the sewage system, they left and gave control to the palestinians.
> ...


2007 is the year of no excuses, not that any excuse could be valid for the actions the Palestinians had taken before..it is the "even if so" you never want to hear.
Just like your recent posts here, you are dis/misinformed and think you know enough to "pick a side"


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Israel is the only block to peace.  Israel does not want a sovereign Palestinian state.
> 
> _"_The prospect of a Palestinian state is nil so long as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stays in office, Netanyahu said in a Monday interview."
> 
> Netanyahu No Palestinian state on my watch - CNN.com







 And yet 138 nations recognise the state of Palestine, now they want them to negotiate peace and mutual borders.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Here's an example of where Gazans might value ports and commerce over perpetual war..
> 
> Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
> 
> ...


_*Today's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel​*_
What did that ceasefire say?

My understanding was that Israel could keep its siege, keep shooting farmers and fishermen, and keep bulldozing farmland while the Palestinians had to stop firing rockets.

If you have something different, I would like to see it.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 8, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is the only block to peace.  Israel does not want a sovereign Palestinian state.
> ...


There will not be a negotiated peace. Those assholes have been yacking at each other for over 20 years and peace is farther away now than when they started.

Peace will only come when the world decides to enforce international law (which is avoided at all cost in the fake peace talks) and UN resolutions.

This is the goal of the flotillas, BDS, etc..


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Here's an example of where Gazans might value ports and commerce over perpetual war..
> ...







 The one they agreed to and signed was exactly the same as the one they turned down, so what is your point ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








And they will need to start with the Palestinians who constantly breach International law and UN resolutions with your support and encouragement



 The role of the flotillas is to smuggle more illegal weapons into gaza and BDS is just a RACIST CON


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Here's an example of where Gazans might value ports and commerce over perpetual war..
> ...



You ditched the total reason I posted that poll to pick on Egypt's motivation for moderating a peace??
Puts you in a very special class of denial there PF. You apparently don't give a flying f-k about what Palestinians actually think.. The ones who are in the middle of the conflict and dodging bombs, bullets and an oppressive "govt"...

Point is -- you've got to be retarded to ignore the fact that REGARDLESS of what the proposal said -- THE MAJORITY OF GAZANS --- wanted the fighting to stop.. You are a plague to their cause with this kind of intentional ignorance..


----------



## Roudy (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



The first thing you learn about these so called Pali supporters is they don't really care about the Palestinians. They just want the Jewish state to be destroyed and Islam to prevail.  That's why the Arabs who are responsible for their plight in the first place, will not do anything but to keep the conflict going.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


No need to panic Flac, this is nothing more then a 4-5 propaganda-debating techniques.
Take a closer look at Tinmore's posts and buy yourself a beer on me if they are not being followed by these principles:

1.*Complete obtuseness*, in a way where every post Tinmore makes you won't get any sort of coherent answer to subject nor the previous questions, just a blurry respond barely attached to the topic and..
2. *Complete denial of presented evidence*, not even indirectly relate to it (Along with Complete obtuseness) - Only Tinmore's sources (are considered credible for him, and so he present them as credible for everyone even if they are not) while he can pick the same sources he denied at different time and claim its credible because so it suits his case...into..
3.*The Big Lie *- Its a complete cycle of the same no-lessons-learned type of arguments even if he was unable to answer them before, so he just repeat everything all over again to imply its actually true, or even partially true...when its a big lie..that you can't address because he...
4.*Avoid the question that is asked, by answering a question he wants.. *and going back up..

Its pretty hard getting down to the point when there are over hundred techniques but everyone would be able to recognize these four in every post he makes, these can pretty much summarize the classic Tinmore's techniques, if you are interested in more feel free to ask me, I'm studying him.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


I see that you don't have anything different so I must be correct.

Of course the Palestinians wanted to stop the war but they also wanted the siege lifted and they wanted Israel to stop shooting their farmers and fishermen.

They were supposed to address these issues in the final ceasefire (along with reconstruction) but that was almost a year ago and I don't see anything happening.

Israel wants to eliminate the symptoms while keeping the problems.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The ceasefire stopped the shooting right? The "siege" is only gonna be addressed when the Palis have a chance to ditch Hamas.  Now that they know HOW Hamas intends to drag them continuously into conflicts. The "siege" is because Hamas is not interested in checking cargo and allowing inspections and because the WORLD can't trust them to do that job.. They are TERRORISTS --- not administrators. And the poor Palis are LOCKED in with these murderous morons. Another few years of that -- and polls will be even more certain, that Palis need RESPONSIBLE and humane leadership to get most everything they want.. 

They have a hard problem getting any sympathy from the Arab neighbors with that kind of warlike leadership. 
If you cared -- you'd work to get the voices heard of the people on the street. Not the propaganda sites that are focused on villifying Israel..


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> The ceasefire stopped the shooting right? The "siege" is only gonna be addressed when the Palis have a chance to ditch Hamas.  Now that they know HOW Hamas intends to drag them continuously into conflicts. The "siege" is because Hamas is not interested in checking cargo and allowing inspections and because the WORLD can't trust them to do that job.. They are TERRORISTS --- not administrators. And the poor Palis are LOCKED in with these murderous morons. Another few years of that -- and polls will be even more certain, that Palis need RESPONSIBLE and humane leadership to get most everything they want..
> 
> They have a hard problem getting any sympathy from the Arab neighbors with that kind of warlike leadership.
> If you cared -- you'd work to get the voices heard of the people on the street. Not the propaganda sites that are focused on villifying Israel..


Israel is collectively punishing 1.5 million people because it didn't like the results of a fair and democratic election that is none of their god-damn business.

Collective punishment is a war crime.  It is a crime against humanity.  You, nor Israel, has any right whatsoever, dictating to Gazans who they can have represent them.  The only reason they are "terrorists", is because you (and Israel), won't let them be anything else.  When they tried the non-violent method of a unity government, Israel made up some bullshit lies to launch an attack.

Get this through your fucking head, the violence won't end until the illegal and immoral blockade and occupation end.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 8, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> 2007 is the year of no excuses, not that any excuse could be valid for the actions the Palestinians had taken before..it is the "even if so" you never want to hear.
> Just like your recent posts here, you are dis/misinformed and think you know enough to "pick a side"


I'm not picking any sides and I have no clue what you are talking about with 2007.  Care to explain that one a little further?

I will say that in 2008, there was a 4 month ceasefire and the rocket fire went down to virtually zero.  But that all ended when the Israeli's launched a commando raid into Gaza to kill a few government officials.  Which just shows, if Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't be breaking the ceasefires.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Yeah, yeah, slime Hamas.

Who was Israel's boogyman before Hamas?

The ceasefire did stop the shooting but the reason for the shooting they left in place. That is pretty dumb.

You seem to be lacking historical context.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The ceasefire stopped the shooting right? The "siege" is only gonna be addressed when the Palis have a chance to ditch Hamas.  Now that they know HOW Hamas intends to drag them continuously into conflicts. The "siege" is because Hamas is not interested in checking cargo and allowing inspections and because the WORLD can't trust them to do that job.. They are TERRORISTS --- not administrators. And the poor Palis are LOCKED in with these murderous morons. Another few years of that -- and polls will be even more certain, that Palis need RESPONSIBLE and humane leadership to get most everything they want..
> ...



Israel and Egypt would be stone-stupid NOT to inspect cargo and traffic going into Gaza. And what kind of "democratic election" results in a violent PURGE and then NO MORE ELECTIONS ?? Maybe the people of Gaza misunderstood the obvious consequences of choosing militant terrorists as their "govt". Seen the Human Rights record of Hamas lately?? 

They now have ZERO CHOICE as to who leads them.. Which is why I put up that poll. Plenty of other confirming evidence that the Gazans now know they screwed up.. 

THere IS no occupation of Gaza. And the West Bank is STILL available for discussion with RESPONSIBLE parties. Ones that dont have a "party platform" of strife, struggle, deceit, and tyranny. I want the PALIs to speak out. Kinda tired of fat asses with death wishes sitting at keyboards GUESSING as to what they want..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Israel and Egypt would be stone-stupid NOT to inspect cargo and traffic going into Gaza.​
Bogus concept. The Palestinians have had on the table for years to have inspections of all imports by an independent body. They have not rejected the inspection of their imports at all.


----------



## toastman (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



No,THIS is a bogus concept. What goes into Gaza can potentially affect Israel. Not to mention they are at war. So if one side has the ability to inspect shipments going into enemy territory, than be it.
Hamas is more then welcome to try and inspect Israel bound shipments or to stop them.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 8, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Israel occupies Gaza and controls it, is what you are saying.


----------



## toastman (Jul 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



How can Israel occupy Gaza if there is not a single Israeli there?

They control their water and air in order to protect its civilians. It's that simple. Not the same as an occupation.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I'm not lacking very much historical context. The PLO was booted from both Jordan and Lebanon.. Israel didn't do that. But the PLO EVENTUALLY entered into US brokered negotiations that led to the PA. THAT was the high point of the Palestinian cause. Israel turned over the Gaza to the PA -- set in process plans to normalize commerce and borders. Had a TWO SIDED conversation leading to good things for the PALIs. Hamas showed up and ended all that -- believing that a single "election" gave them a mandate for perpetual tyrannical rule in the Gaza. 

Israel probably won't make that mistake again. Until such time that there is VOICE for the Palis in a recognized govt -- things are not gonna change for them.. Go lobby to POLL Palestinians on what they value.. 

Do they choose Intifada over all the things that other nations value. Things that make life easier and happier? 
Could be a VERY effective Palestinian State set up for a 2 state solution. Egypt/Jordan might even kick in some land and resources. Corridors between W.Bank and Gaza are not that difficult to imagine. 

"Supporters" like you --- doesn't matter what you want. Does it? It's their choices..  Go fund some polls and ask them..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



For YEARS eh?? Was that BEFORE Hamas PURGED the government there? Where is this proposal for an independent body?? Why don't they do it themselves and just let in ICC inspectors??


----------



## montelatici (Jul 8, 2015)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



So, controlling the borders, air space, territorial sea and occasionally sending in troops to kill thousands of women and children is not occupation.  That means the Nazis were not occupying the Warsaw Ghetto. LOL


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Israel no longer interferes in the day to day operation of Gaza -- Except for insisting that cargo coming in gets INSPECTED and then allowed into Gaza.. Tell me what "Humanitarian Aid" or commercial freight has been DENIED after inspection.. Not an occupation at all. Is the US OCCUPYING RUSSIA OR IRAN today. After all they are both under US sanctions and trade restrictions right now.. 

Did we OCCUPY IRAQ for the 12 years this country stupidly attempted to "contain Saddam". NOTHING was going in or out and Clinton bombed them almost daily.. Were they "occupied" during those years? 

It's an EMBARGO.. Supported by MANY nations besides Israel..


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Regardless of what Tinmore is saying, he is the one who is going to lead Hamas this time, flacaltenn
Israeli Officials Hamas Close to Pre-2014 War Capabilities - Breitbart?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


And what kind of "democratic election" results in a violent PURGE and then NO MORE ELECTIONS ??

Perhaps you do not understand what happened.

Start @ 40:20


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 8, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Tell me what "Humanitarian Aid" or commercial freight has been DENIED after inspection.​
90% of Palestinian factories are closed do to Israel. Much of this is food production, furniture, and clothing. The agricultural sector cannot get supplies or export their produce due to the siege. Not to mention that Israel has destroyed 1/3 of Palestine's farmland. Fishermen are not allowed to fish.

So, why do the liars call this security?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 What siege would that be then, as I cant see any siege anywhere in Palestine.

 First stop sending terrorists out pretending to be farmers and fishermen

 They did and the Palestinians breached them straight away by sending out smugglers and bombers.

No Israel wants an end to the violence, terrorism and illegal weapons so its people can live in safety


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The ceasefire stopped the shooting right? The "siege" is only gonna be addressed when the Palis have a chance to ditch Hamas.  Now that they know HOW Hamas intends to drag them continuously into conflicts. The "siege" is because Hamas is not interested in checking cargo and allowing inspections and because the WORLD can't trust them to do that job.. They are TERRORISTS --- not administrators. And the poor Palis are LOCKED in with these murderous morons. Another few years of that -- and polls will be even more certain, that Palis need RESPONSIBLE and humane leadership to get most everything they want..
> ...









Wrong again the blockade went on because the Palestinians fired 2000 rockets at Israel, mainly at areas with children. That is the only collective punishment you will find in the conflict. It went on before the election was held.

 How about a link from a reliable non partisan source then showing that Israel is dictating who the Palestinians can elect

 Get this through your head the legal blockade and occupation wont end until the Palestinians stop all violence and act like human beings


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...









 Hey they elected hamas so now they have to unelect them and put someone else in their place


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








No because they were expecting Israel to foot the bill for shipping, and when Israel refused the produce was left to rot. The supplies they want happen to be nitrates that can be turned into explosives, they wont accept non nitrate fertilisers.  No hamas has destroyed 1/3 of palestines farmland. Fishermen can fish inside the lines drawn


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Israelis have no room to bitch about who the Palestinians elect.

Look at the assholes they elect.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Occupations always have problems with security. It comes with the territory.

They can stop the violence any time they want by ending the occupation.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > 2007 is the year of no excuses, not that any excuse could be valid for the actions the Palestinians had taken before..it is the "even if so" you never want to hear.
> ...


Exactly, lack of information. 
Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Battle of Gaza 2007 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



But to you the occupation means the whole of Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


I have seen no proof to the contrary.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







Never said they did, I just pointed out that the Palestinians made their bed when they elected hamas. Now they need a new bed


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 Read the Egyptian brokered ceasefire terms


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Not quite, what you mean is you don't want to see any proof because it would destroy your POV


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Supplies for a furniture factory would arrive intact and EXPORTS would not be subject to such high scrutiny. 
It's an INSPECTION -- not a confiscation. The fishing problem is because it's been demonstrated that fishing boats were unloading embargoed goods... So there is a boundary line where open fishing is allowed and I imagine this would also dissappear with a RESPONSIBLE govt in place in Gaza..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



THat's right PF -- MANY are assholes. Unfortunately that is not OUR decision or even Israel's decision and YOU just have to learn to live with it.. 

Personally I'm hoping that the Palis underestimated the sad and dire consequences of allowing Hamas in. And they need the James Carville type question of "Are your lives better off NOW -- with Hamas in charge".. 

Live with what THEY choose.. And realize their choices have consequences. There's a mental condition called co-dependence --- where one gets soooo wrapped up in the bad choices of loved ones, that their self-esteem, pleasure and actions become enslaved to the errant actions of their loved one. 

I'm seeing a LOT of co-dependence amongst the current crop of Pali supporters. You can't HELP a person in trouble until you realize that THEIR CHOICES and actions are THEIRS. And their consequences are not YOURS..


----------



## toastman (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Can you back all this up ?


----------



## toastman (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It's kind of hard to criticize the 'Palestinians' for the Islamic war monger neanderthals that they 'elected', considering they didn't have much of a choice.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 9, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



They did have a choice in 2006 and they chose Islamist Hamas.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 9, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Exactly, lack of information.


Now that you have taken care of my "information" deficiency and it is no longer "lacking", my comments are as follows...



Daniyel said:


> Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


Israel did not disengage from Gaza.  They still maintain "effective control" over 80% of the area.  That's not leaving!



Daniyel said:


> Battle of Gaza 2007 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


The "Battle" happened because...

_*From your link:
Under pressure of the international sanctions, Fatah developed a plan to replace the Hamas government.*_​
...so don't stick that on Hamas.



Daniyel said:


> List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


 The suicide attacks ended in 2008.

_*Again, from your link:*
A 2007 study of Palestinian suicide bombings during the __Second Intifada__ (September 2000 through August 2005) found that 39.9 percent of the suicide attacks were carried out by __Hamas__, 26.4 percent by __Fatah__, 25.7 percent by the __Palestinian Islamic Jihad__ (PIJ), 5.4 percent by the __Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine__ (PFLP) and 2.7 percent by other organizations. The first suicide attack was carried out in 1989 and *the attacks stopped in 2008*._​
So you can't blame Hamas now, for something that ended 7 years ago.  Also, why are you singling out Hamas?  Fatah did almost as many suicide attacks, but you say nothing about them.

Is it because Fatah has sold themselves out to be Israel's little dog bitch?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly, lack of information.
> ...









 NOPE wrong again as in 2005 Israel gave up all control and handed gaza on a plate to the Palestinians. No blockade, no occupation and no presence inside gaza for a further 18 months.

 And hamas retaliated by mass murdering the children of fatah members.


Just over half as many is not nearly as many in the real world


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Battle of Gaza 2007 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia





Billo_Really said:


> The "Battle" happened because...
> 
> _*From your link:
> Under pressure of the international sanctions, Fatah developed a plan to replace the Hamas government.*_​
> ...so don't stick that on Hamas.




Go ahead Billo -- YOU vote for Hamas... BTW Billo Bud -- you nailed it above. There are consequences of giving a international terrorist organization effective control of your govt. Did you think there shouldn't be?
*Could ISIL or AQA be a legitimate vote without consequences?*

OF COURSE -- the US and many other countries backed Fatah... Because Fatah essentially CREATED the PA and brought about the release of the Gaza to their authority. And the pre-election PA was making GREAT progress in organizing a national identity. 

It's APPALLING that the Palis sacrificed REAL progress for their cause in choosing Hamas. Did you read the Hamas PLATFORM that PF published? It's a battle screed --- not a plan for Palestinian Nationalism. The end game for that is exactly what happened when Jordan EJECTED the PLO..

The mistake on the part of the US was to PUSH the election date earlier than the PA wanted it to be. Because Bush and Rice wanted a chance to make real progress towards peace and Pali Nationalism before they left office. Had Abbas called the elections on HIS terms -- results could have been much different.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

toastman said:


> It's kind of hard to criticize the 'Palestinians' for the Islamic war monger neanderthals that they 'elected', considering they didn't have much of a choice.



I think it was less of election than a wager on the winner of the inevitable Civil War..


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 9, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> NOPE wrong again as in 2005 Israel gave up all control and handed gaza on a plate to the Palestinians. No blockade, no occupation and no presence inside gaza for a further 18 months.
> 
> And hamas retaliated by mass murdering the children of fatah members.
> 
> ...


No, they did not give up all control.  From *Daniyel's* link...

_*"*Under the Revised Disengagement Plan adopted on June 6, 2004*...Israel will continue to control Gaza's coastline and airspace and reserves the right to undertake military operations when necessary."*

*"*After Israel's withdrawal, the Palestinians were given control over the Gaza Strip*, except for the borders, the airspace and the **territorial waters**."*_​
That's not leaving!

In addition, Israel continued their harassment and extra-judicial killings of Hamas members...

_"On 26 September, Israel assassinated Islamic Jihad commander Mohammad Khalil and his bodyguard with a missile strike;* on the 29 September Israel closed all Hamas charities on the West Bank, and as part of a 5-day offensive fired artillery into the Gaza Strip*."_​
Furthermore, Israel reneged on most of its promises from the disengagement agreement...

_A British Parliamentary commission, summing up the situation eight months later, found that the Rafah crossing agreement worked efficiently, that *from January–April 2006, the Karni crossing was closed 45% of the time, and severe limitations were in place on exports from Gaza*, with, according to __OCHA__ figures, only 1,500 of 8,500 tons of produce getting through; that they were informed *most closures were unrelated to security issues in Gaza* but either responses to violence in the West Bank *or for no given reason*. The promised transit of convoys between Gaza and the West Bank was not honoured;
_​Closures unrelated to security issues or for no given reason?

That's not giving up control!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Go ahead Billo -- YOU vote for Hamas...


Stop right there!

I don't vote for Hamas and I don't support Hamas.  I am not involved in this conflict.  What I am doing, is calling you out on the many lies you (and other Israeli kiss-asses) tell on a constant basis.



flacaltenn said:


> BTW Billo Bud -- you nailed it above. There are consequences of giving a international terrorist organization effective control of your govt. Did you think there shouldn't be?
> *Could ISIL or AQA be a legitimate vote without consequences? *


You're defending the Likud Party.  They're a terrorist organization.  Their roots are in Irgun.  A Jewish terrorist group that bombed the King David hotel.  The IDF regularly shoots at Palestinian's fishing and farming.  That's terrorism.

When you think about it, you've got to be pretty evil to shoot at someone  fishing or farming.  Yet that doesn't register a blip on your immoral radar, as you blame the Pals for "all" the problems.



flacaltenn said:


> OF COURSE -- the US and many other countries backed Fatah... Because Fatah essentially CREATED the PA and brought about the release of the Gaza to their authority. And the pre-election PA was making GREAT progress in organizing a national identity.
> 
> It's APPALLING that the Palis sacrificed REAL progress for their cause in choosing Hamas. Did you read the Hamas PLATFORM that PF published? It's a battle screed --- not a plan for Palestinian Nationalism. The end game for that is exactly what happened when Jordan EJECTED the PLO..
> 
> The mistake on the part of the US was to PUSH the election date earlier than the PA wanted it to be. Because Bush and Rice wanted a chance to make real progress towards peace and Pali Nationalism before they left office. Had Abbas called the elections on HIS terms -- results could have been much different.


Of coarse you backed Fatah?

Did you know at one time, you and your ilk thought of Fatah, the same way you think of Hamas now?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead Billo -- YOU vote for Hamas...
> ...



You keep on mentioning fishermen and farmers being targeted by the IDF.  Do you have a link to these allegations?


----------



## toastman (Jul 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead Billo -- YOU vote for Hamas...
> ...



Did you know that you're a Palestinian ass kisser?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead Billo -- YOU vote for Hamas...
> ...



*Did you know at one time, you and your ilk thought of Fatah, the same way you think of Hamas now?*

That's probably true.. But it's the admiration of what Fatah did to advance the Pali cause and how they did it that changed my mind and the heart of Israel. Hard to negotiate with an Arafat that SAYS he represents the Palis in between airline hijackings.. Quite different to negotiate with an Abbas who is a true Founding Father of Pali nationalism.

Hamas's heart is not in the HolyLand. They are off wrecking havoc in Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, maybe the Sinai.
The Irgun guys are dead. So is Yasser.. What matters is who sits at the table TODAY..

Sometimes when you operate a coastal blockade, you have to enforce it. How many fishermen have been killed in the past 5 or 6 years?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


That's probably true.. But it's the admiration of what Fatah did to advance the Pali cause and how they did it that changed my mind and the heart of Israel.​
Really? They have been engaged in fake peace talks for over 20 years only to take it up the behind from Israel.

That is what Israel wants. Someone who will just talk and talk while they steal the rest of the land.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I can't do propaganda vids. Life is too short. PLEASE --- just tell me what materials shipped to Gaza DISAPPEARED or were confiscated during inspection at AshDod.. Do you have ANY examples of that? 
If not -- nothing else in this argument matters. What shut down the Gazan economy was the money flow being stopped from Iran and Saudi and many other places that were floating it..


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> That's probably true.. But it's the admiration of what Fatah did to advance the Pali cause and how they did it that changed my mind and the heart of Israel.


What, by selling out the Pals to be Israel's little bitch?



flacaltenn said:


> Hard to negotiate with an Arafat that SAYS he represents the Palis in between airline hijackings.. Quite different to negotiate with an Abbas who is a true Founding Father of Pali nationalism.
> 
> Hamas's heart is not in the HolyLand. They are off wrecking havoc in Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, maybe the Sinai.
> The Irgun guys are dead. So is Yasser.. What matters is who sits at the table TODAY..


And Hamas members today, no longer follow their charter.




flacaltenn said:


> Sometimes when you operate a coastal blockade, you have to enforce it. How many fishermen have been killed in the past 5 or 6 years?


If you can't see how wrong it is to shoot at someone fishing in their own territorial waters, then you have lost all sense of humanity.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> I can't do propaganda vids. Life is too short. PLEASE --- just tell me what materials shipped to Gaza DISAPPEARED or were confiscated during inspection at AshDod.. Do you have ANY examples of that?
> If not -- nothing else in this argument matters. What shut down the Gazan economy was the money flow being stopped from Iran and Saudi and many other places that were floating it..


And if a woman gets raped, it's her fault because she was wearing a red dress.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Is that your strategy on this forum? To just talk and talk until chances for negotiations and peace are gone? Haven't been any OPEN serious negotiations since the Pali Civil War? Who's fault is that? No functioning govt -- no talkie-table.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I can't do propaganda vids. Life is too short. PLEASE --- just tell me what materials shipped to Gaza DISAPPEARED or were confiscated during inspection at AshDod.. Do you have ANY examples of that?
> ...



WTF Billo?? I asked for specific examples of legitimate incoming goods disappearing during inspections at Ashdod. 
SURELY the shippers of these imports could lodge HUGE legal cases in International Court. And the shipping insurance companies would be complaining up a storm. That's how international shipping and trade works..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


I can't do propaganda vids. Life is too short. PLEASE​
Life is too short to learn anything.

Good choice.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Sometimes when you operate a coastal blockade, you have to enforce it. How many fishermen have been killed in the past 5 or 6 years?


If you can't see how wrong it is to shoot at someone fishing in their own territorial waters, then you have lost all sense of humanity.[/QUOTE]

Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I want to learn if the Israelis are STEALING goods bound for Gaza.. THAT'S what I want to learn.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


The Zionist's goal for over a hundred years has been all of Palestine without the Palestinians. They haven't budged an inch since then. So called peace talks have always been to waste time while Israel gobbles up the rest of Palestine.

Israel is too chicken to talk with anyone, like Hamas, who can see through that scam.


----------



## toastman (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



That's what I thought. All you got is a Press TV video as usual, but you cannot back up your claim. Why am I not surprised?

You know what I find really ironic Tinmore? You constantly trash Israeli sources, yet you have no problem using possibly the most biased, anti Israel full of shit Iranian owned media source.


----------



## toastman (Jul 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The only thing anyone here can learn from you is bullshit Palestinian propaganda. You use these videos as a kind of smoke because of your inability to back up your claims.


P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



  

Where do you come up with this drivel ?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi..  SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..


----------



## Roudy (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The ceasefire stopped the shooting right? The "siege" is only gonna be addressed when the Palis have a chance to ditch Hamas.  Now that they know HOW Hamas intends to drag them continuously into conflicts. The "siege" is because Hamas is not interested in checking cargo and allowing inspections and because the WORLD can't trust them to do that job.. They are TERRORISTS --- not administrators. And the poor Palis are LOCKED in with these murderous morons. Another few years of that -- and polls will be even more certain, that Palis need RESPONSIBLE and humane leadership to get most everything they want..
> ...



Occupation shmuckupation.  The blockade will be lifted when the bloodthirsty savages end their terrorism and desire to destroy the Jewish state.  More tough talk from big mouth with the small IQ.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 10, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Another Pali Nazi supporter gets exposed.  Funny part is the complain about the "Hasbara" yet they routinely quote garbage sources like Iranian French Press TV.  What's the flavor nowadays?  Rwanda or Ethiopian?  I'll take mine with almond milk.  LOL


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..
> 
> I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .
> 
> ...


OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


That's what I thought. All you got is a Press TV video​
Typical propaganda ploy. Slime the source while ignoring the content. If you find something that is not true point it out.

If you think I am just trashing Israeli sources just say so and I will point out their lies.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> WTF Billo?? I asked for specific examples of legitimate incoming goods disappearing during inspections at Ashdod.
> SURELY the shippers of these imports could lodge HUGE legal cases in International Court. And the shipping insurance companies would be complaining up a storm. That's how international shipping and trade works..


That's not the point.  It is illegal to stop a ship in international waters, sailing under the flag of a sovereign nation.  There's a word for when that occurs and it's called "piracy".  And since Israel has no legal jurisdiction in Gazan territorial waters, it has no right to stop any ship whatsoever, no matter what cargo it happens to be carrying.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...


Who shoots at people fishing?  Think about that.  Who the fuck shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Occupation shmuckupation.


Now that's a mouthful!

*Roudy Roufti*, using words that end in "tion" _(pronounced shun)._


----------



## toastman (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I have asked you MANY times to point out their lies. The same way I have in the past pointed out Press TV lives. The fact that you use Press TV to get your information explains why you are so incredibly brainwashed.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly, lack of information.
> ...


That's why I said 2007..like one suicide bombing is not enough to be an act of war...or a reason to at least recall the support from such people...
You probably gonna stick to you stupid position just because you like to argue, but after reading about the Palestinians atrocities and knowing my position as well that Hamas and Fatah are double headed snake, you even have the nerve to ask me what's my problem with Hamas?
You still don't get it do?


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > NOPE wrong again as in 2005 Israel gave up all control and handed gaza on a plate to the Palestinians. No blockade, no occupation and no presence inside gaza for a further 18 months.
> ...


This is what happened when Israel allowed them a longer rope, you seriously expect Israel allow them a free shipping of rockets and weaponry to Gaza, or perhaps some Qatari funded aircrafts? or maybe you want us to hand them over our own weapons?
This was all about trust - they couldn't handle smaller opportunities NOT to attack Israel, sorry Billo, it wasn't your blood spilled there.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > NOPE wrong again as in 2005 Israel gave up all control and handed gaza on a plate to the Palestinians. No blockade, no occupation and no presence inside gaza for a further 18 months.
> ...








 You are a year out as in 2004 Israel still had troops in gaza and occupied the land. One year later the Israelis left gaza and handed control over to the P.A.

 The artillery fire was in response to Palestinian rockets and rightly so. The terrorists killed where as a result of responces to Palestinian attacks.

 Now why did you omit this fact from your highlighted manipulation
_but either _*responses to violence* _in the West Bank _

_ A legitimate reason for closing the Israeli borders to possible terrorist incursion.

_


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 10, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...









 Expect to get some badly dubbed video's and inconclusive footage of a boat being told to stop.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
> ...



Once again, link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


gaza fishermen killed - Google Search

You don't need a PhD.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



The burden of proof is on the one making the allegations.  He shouldn't even waste one minute of my time googling.  And I've seen you ask for links many times.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


When have you asked me to point out a lie and I have not?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> You keep on mentioning fishermen and farmers being targeted by the IDF.  Do you have a link to these allegations?


These aren't allegations, they are a fact!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> This is what happened when Israel allowed them a longer rope, you seriously expect Israel allow them a free shipping of rockets and weaponry to Gaza, or perhaps some Qatari funded aircrafts? or maybe you want us to hand them over our own weapons?
> This was all about trust - they couldn't handle smaller opportunities NOT to attack Israel, sorry Billo, it wasn't your blood spilled there.


Who the fuck do you think you are?  You do not have a right to tell others how to live their lives.  You do not have a right to tell other people what they can and cannot have on their own property. 

If you think you do have that right, then come over to my house and try to pull that shit on me, under my roof and see what happens next.  I will personally show you how wrong that is.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...







It seems that you do as in not one case was it proven beyond reasonable doubt that they were not either outside of the area allocated or engaged in smuggling

 Want to find just one link and not expect others to do your work for you


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > You keep on mentioning fishermen and farmers being targeted by the IDF.  Do you have a link to these allegations?
> ...








HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE CARGO NET VIDEO. YOU DONT FISH WITH A CARGO NET UN LESS YOU ARE AFTER CONTRABAND PLACED ON THE SEA FLOOR.

 Look closely and you will see that the gunboat fires in the water warning shots, to make the fishing boat turn back towards where it should be. And can you tell me where it says the gunboat is Israeli as it looks like an Egyptian one to me.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > This is what happened when Israel allowed them a longer rope, you seriously expect Israel allow them a free shipping of rockets and weaponry to Gaza, or perhaps some Qatari funded aircrafts? or maybe you want us to hand them over our own weapons?
> ...







Depends on what you are doing, and if you are cooking Crystal meth then YES I can and enforce it with a gun


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 You are the one that is paranoid


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..
> ...



Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > WTF Billo?? I asked for specific examples of legitimate incoming goods disappearing during inspections at Ashdod.
> ...



Give me the citation that ships are stopped in Intl waters. There ARE exceptions to the rule allowed by Intl law. Gazan territorial waters are under an internationally recognized blockade for inspection purposes. US-coalition set up an embargo against Iraq for 12 years. INCLUDING a no-fly zone over parts of Iraq. Was never recognized as contrary to Intl. Law..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site !   I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site !   I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???


You think shooting at people fishing is okay?  No big deal?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE CARGO NET VIDEO. YOU DONT FISH WITH A CARGO NET UN LESS YOU ARE AFTER CONTRABAND PLACED ON THE SEA FLOOR.
> 
> Look closely and you will see that the gunboat fires in the water warning shots, to make the fishing boat turn back towards where it should be. And can you tell me where it says the gunboat is Israeli as it looks like an Egyptian one to me.


Shut your fucking mouth, asshole!  You don't know shit.  All you know, is that you're an evil piece of shit, who should take his own life.

The fishermen were in Gazan territorial waters, moron.  The Israeli gunboat had no legal right to be in the area.  Now fuck you!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Depends on what you are doing, and if you are cooking Crystal meth then YES I can and enforce it with a gun


Unless you're the AHJ, you will not like where your gun whind's up.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site !   I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???
> ...



Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.

It's a blockade. You can't allow 100 small boats out in deeper water to pick up or transfer cargo. Like I said -- IN PRINCIPLE i support the blockade of the military and dual use crap. Don't like the ways that is being implemented.

What SHOULD happen --- Is that Israel/Egypt SHOULD open deeper fishing grounds farther offshore in a LIMITED zone, give daily/monthly permits and inspect all small boats leaving that zone. Limits on the size of those boats.  Could move that zone around at random to prevent placement of contraband on the bottom of the sea. Why don't you work for a RESPONSIBLE Pali govt who can ASSIST and negotiate in the problems? If a real govt existed --- you'd have a customs and inspection facility and a coast guard that would open to international scrutiny..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning.  The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


From the time the closure was imposed in June 2007 to November 2014, a monthly average of 13.5 trucks left Gaza to foreign destinations, most of them carrying agricultural goods – just one percent of the monthly average of goods shipped out just prior to the closure.

All goods originating in Gaza are shipped through Kerem Shalom Crossing, between Gaza and Israel.

Export from Gaza Gisha​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning.  The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..


Israel has always been a law free zone.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning.  The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..


When Gaza OPERATES like a country​
Do you mean not occupied?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning.  The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..
> ...



It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt.. 
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


What would a "responsible government" look like under the circumstances?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Why June 2007??? What was the volume going across BEFORE the Hamas purge -- immediately after Israel withdrew.. ?

You know -- one reason I dont like the arbitrary rules and enforcement of the blockade is because all Hamas has to do is interfere in the goods coming in and out.. The UN caught them at that before. They just start confiscating stuff and blaming it on Israel... Works beautifully in that vacuum of news and information..

If the blockade was purely for military reasons -- Hamas could not do that.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Any kind of united Pali Nationalism that seriously wants to improve the daily lives of their people. AND has the leadership to do more world class diplomacy and less meaningless and symbolic attacks on Israel.. 
Would have to breach the Hamas/Fatah break-up.   My hope is that Hamas gets sucked into more interventions in Yemen, Syria, Egypt and elsewhere and loses interest in having Gaza as a trophy..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Dr. Mustafa Barghouti was a candidate for president in 2005 against Abbas. Israel did everything it could to make sure that Abbas won. We would be looking at a very different history if Dr. Barghouti had won that election.

**


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.
> 
> It's a blockade. You can't allow 100 small boats out in deeper water to pick up or transfer cargo. Like I said -- IN PRINCIPLE i support the blockade of the military and dual use crap. Don't like the ways that is being implemented.
> 
> What SHOULD happen --- Is that Israel/Egypt SHOULD open deeper fishing grounds farther offshore in a LIMITED zone, give daily/monthly permits and inspect all small boats leaving that zone. Limits on the size of those boats.  Could move that zone around at random to prevent placement of contraband on the bottom of the sea. Why don't you work for a RESPONSIBLE Pali govt who can ASSIST and negotiate in the problems? If a real govt existed --- you'd have a customs and inspection facility and a coast guard that would open to international scrutiny..


The fishing boat was in Gaza's own territorial waters.  The Israeli gunboat, had no legal reason to even be in the area.  Why do you continue to ignore that fact?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
> Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..


Excuse me, but the rest of the world considers Gaza under occupation.  And they've been under occupation since 1967.

If Gaza wasn't occupied, their fishermen wouldn't be getting shot at.  Their farmers wouldn't be getting shot at.  Humanitarian vessels would not be stopped, sailing into their ports.  Gazans would be able to leave the area.  Gaza is a prison.  It is a prison, because the area is under occupation.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 10, 2015)

These Zionists are so irrational.  Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it. 

How can they look themselves in a mirror after they post such nonsense?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.
> ...


Indeed, Israel lied about leaving Gaza in 2005. Why are the still there?

Even when they are under ceasefire Israel continues to shoot Palestinians in Gaza.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site !   I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???
> ...








Then prove they were fishing and not smuggling or outside their limits ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

montelatici said:


> These Zionists are so irrational.  Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it.
> 
> How can they look themselves in a mirror after they post such nonsense?






 And any other country that fired illegal weapons at children, mass murders children and engages in terrorist activity would have been wiprd from the face of the Earth by UN forces by now.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...






 So where in gaza are the Israelis, and why are the Palestinians breaching the ceasefire terms


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







Nothing like hamas for starters


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 According to islamonazi propaganda, but the facts speak louder than words.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.
> ...







 Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
 A)   outside of the restricted zone
or
 B)  smuggling


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
> ...






 How about a link saying just that then dildo ?  I can give you a link to a hamas official that says gaza has not been under occupation since 2005

 You forget that there is a legal blockade in place which means that the gazan people are restricted to their own land. And the ceasefire prohibits them from entering within a set distance of Israel. Those so called humanitarian vessels carried nothing as they were just blockade runners


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> How about a link saying just that then dildo ?


I've already given the links many times.  Go back and read them again, if you need to know.

It's not my problem you have ADD.



Phoenall said:


> I can give you a link to a hamas official that says gaza has not been under occupation since 2005


Interesting how you take as gospel some obtuse comment from a former Hamas official, but readily dismiss one from a current Hamas official when he says they're willing to accept a two-state solution, based on the '67 borders.

You little cherry-picking punk!



Phoenall said:


> You forget that there is a legal blockade in place which means that the gazan people are restricted to their own land.


The blockade is a war crime.  How is a crime against humanity, legal?

And shove that Palmer Report up you ass!  They weren't even commissioned to determine its legality.




Phoenall said:


> And the ceasefire prohibits them from entering within a set distance of Israel.


Israel has no jurisdiction on the Gazan side of the fence, Gazan territorial waters or airspace.




Phoenall said:


> Those so called humanitarian vessels carried nothing as they were just blockade runners


The only "nothing" that  is "carried", is the space between your ears.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
> A)   outside of the restricted zone
> or
> B)  smuggling


I did.  I produced the video that said they were in Gazan territorial waters.

The burden of proof is now on you to produce a video that says they weren't.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> So where in gaza are the Israelis...


Go fishing and you'll see...


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Israel removes last significant ban on Gaza imports The Times of Israel
If there were weapons, but most of the previously banned items have been available for the last two years.
Rather puts the idea of the 'humanitarian' flotilla as a farce.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Bell peppers exported from Gaza for first time in years
Been exporting them for years, by land.
Boats are limited to six miles, for fishing.

No deep port in gaza for large ships.  Israel was in the process if building one before the hand over of gaza to the palestinians.  They were dredging to accommodate ships.  The original plan was more for cruise ships but a deep port could have accommodated cargo as well.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > How about a link saying just that then dildo ?
> ...







 No you haven't, you skirted the issue of the rest of the world saying gaza was occupied.

 What '67 borders, who signed for these borders then and when where they implemented. But besides that  the fact is hamas say that gaza is not occupied.

When did the ICC/ICJ declare it a war crime and start issuing arrest warrants then ?

 Depends on if you accept international law or not, and international treaties that say just that.

 So you admit your lack of intelligence again by resorting to personal abuse. You cant argue against facts if you don't have a leg to stand on in the first place.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
> ...






 Who said ?  Would it be the islamonazi propagandists that dubbed the video.....................

 No youi produced no documented proof of anything as I could take the same video and remove the voice and replace it with one saying Mexican waters and US navy murderers.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > So where in gaza are the Israelis...
> ...







I have and no Israelis have been seen.

 So I repeat where are the Israeli occupation force in gaza that have total control ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Your links are years old and I don't see any facts on the ground showing that these are true.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
> ...



Didya WATCH it? Because at the end, the protesters said IN ENGLISH -- "We are International" presumably meaning they were in Intl waters and OUT of the six mile limit. Make up your mind Billo. Territorial or Intl.. 

If Gaza had a govt -- there would be a CLAIM to territorial waters.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

montelatici said:


> These Zionists are so irrational.  Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it.
> 
> How can they look themselves in a mirror after they post such nonsense?



REALLY Monte? The US did EXACTLY THAT to Iraq for 12 years under Bush1st and Clinton.. Was Iraq OCCUPIED during that period? BEFORE the ACTUAL occupation occurred under Bush2nd? 

Clinton bombed them daily -- and for reasons that had more to do with his "domestic" problems than with actual necessity.. Does Egypt "occupy" Gaza?? Need an answer Monte..


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



One link is from 2012, and the other is from M'Aan.. At the least they show that there has been times of opening up the embargo.. You had brought up the "bell peppers".. Produce a link showing that bell peppers are banned for export. Or specific instances where they were not allowed to cross. By YOUR rules -- make sure it's recent. 


MAYBE -- there was just never SURPLUS for most years to export a particular crop like bell peppers or there was too much fighting to produce a representative yield.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



From 2007 till 2010 many exports were blocked because of hamas control of gaza.  Hamas had kicked out fatah from gaza and the agreement for exports was not with hamas but the PA.

Hamas was and in some cases still is a terrorist organization.  They don't want formal negotiations with Israel.  Any attempts as negotiations have been through third parties.
Hamas prefers to make 'demands' and fire on Israel rather than work out any agreement.  Even after ceasefires, periods of quiet, hamas does not last long before they shatter the calm and attract Israeli retaliation.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I still had problems finding out the CURRENT rules for the blockade.. Why isn't there a precise statement of what can go in and out of Gaza? THAT -- bugs me... GREATLY.. 

Because it leaves room for Hamas and propaganists to claim that any old thing they confiscate can be blamed on the "illegal" Israeli blockade. And there's no reason NOT to publicly state the rules -- other than to torment and confuse the Gazans..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


"We are International" means that they are not Palestinian. Somebody like  the ISM.

They notify the Israelis in hopes that they will be less trigger happy with foreign nationals.

BTW, Palestinians are allowed to fish to 20 miles by treaty.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Didya WATCH it? Because at the end, the protesters said IN ENGLISH -- "We are International" presumably meaning they were in Intl waters and OUT of the six mile limit. Make up your mind Billo. Territorial or Intl..
> 
> If Gaza had a govt -- there would be a CLAIM to territorial waters.


Okay, lets say you're right and I was wrong and they were in international waters.  Israel has no right stopping any vessel in international waters.  To do so, is called piracy.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> I still had problems finding out the CURRENT rules for the blockade.. Why isn't there a precise statement of what can go in and out of Gaza? THAT -- bugs me... GREATLY..
> 
> Because it leaves room for Hamas and propaganists to claim that any old thing they confiscate can be blamed on the "illegal" Israeli blockade. And there's no reason NOT to publicly state the rules -- other than to torment and confuse the Gazans..


The blockade collectively punishes all 1.5 million Gazans. 

That is a war crime.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


From 2007 till 2010 many exports were blocked because of hamas control of gaza. Hamas had kicked out fatah from gaza and the agreement for exports was not with hamas but the PA.​
Almost correct. It was an agreement with the PA. Not Fatah. Not Hamas. The PA was still there after the losers, Fatah, got the boot.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Gaza imports - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


That is because it is not about security, it is about collective punishment. Generally all exports are banned. How can exports be a security threat?

Banned items include books, paper, pencils, toys, crayons, different foods, and other ridiculous things that have nothing to do with security.

Even chocolate is banned. Ali Abunimah joked about never seeing a chocolate tipped rocket.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



What treaty and who signed it?  Doesnt matter if there is a military embargo of weapons that needs to enforced.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...




LinKs?  FACTS?  Spoiler alert.   I found none.. You wont either.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...




Thanks.. that helps.  If that list of post 2010 rules is actually correct,  than PF needs to read it and come up to date.  All the stuff like crayons, and notebooks is clearly labeled as BEFORE 2010.  So as usual in this Wonderland forum ----  folks are fighting about the past and not the present or the future.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




The PA hasnt done the job of governing or representing the Palis SINCE 2007.  If its not functioning, its "not still there"..  Just like an election that leads to no more elections,,,,,,, was really NOT an election.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Under the Oslo Agreements, the fishing range was 20 nautical miles (approximately 37 km) Lift the restrictions on the Gaza fishing range B Tselem

It is amazing how little Israel supporters know. Most of what I post nobody has ever heard of. Then I have to go find a link to something I read 5 years ago.

It is no surprise though. One thing consistent about Israel supporters is that they refuse to learn anything. It shows in their posts.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


That depends on how you look at it. In June of 2007 Abbas left the government and set up an illegal "emergency government" in the West Bank. The liars call this the PA. The part of the legal PA that was in Gaza continued to be there.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


According to Amnesty International, the Economist, Haaretz and UN reports, prior to June 2010, the following were banned or restricted:

*Food*. According to a UN report, importation of lentils, pasta, tomato paste and juice has been restricted.[15] Pasta has since been allowed. Sugar has always been allowed.[14] Soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy are now permitted.[16] Fruit, milk products in small packages and frozen food products are also allowed.[14] Dry food,[17] ginger and chocolate were at one point barred.[18]

*Household items*. A4 paper,[18] crayons, stationery, soccer balls, and musical instruments have been, at times, banned for import.[17] AFP includes toilet paper as a banned good,[4] though the BBC lists it as permitted.[3] According to the Haaretz the following items were banned in 2009: books, candles, crayons, clothing, cups, cutlery, crockery, electric appliances such as refrigerators and washing machines, glasses, light bulbs, matches, musical instruments, needles, sheets, blankets, shoes, mattresses, spare machine and car parts, and thread.[14]

*Agriculture and fishing*. According to Gisha, fishing ropes and rods, ginger and chocolate, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, were at one point barred.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_imports=​
Things jump around so there are variation from one time or source to the next.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




That is such a large pile of horse shit       I dont know how to start.  NEITHER half of the  PA has been functioning as an elected representative body since 2007.  No meetings, no elections, no diplomacy, no legislation passed by representative vote.    What part of NO FUNCTIONING NATIONAL representation dontcha understand?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Dont care what was banned between 2006 and 2010.  I care about the rules today..  In one post you claim that links are not new enough.,..   in the next, youre whining about old news.....


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


You are just saying that because you do not know what happened.

And you don't want to know what happened. You will only believe what Israel tells you.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



There were not many elections in Nazi occupied territories.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I see no parallel there.  Israel didnt cause the breakdown of Pali national democracy.
But yet of course its their fault that Arabs cant seem to get along under systems of govt that arent 
Theocracies or dictators or military rule.  The Palis screwed that up...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

The Palis screwed it up with a little pressure from the US to hold "elections" prematurely.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Actually it was the US that trashed their whole political system in 2007 and has not allowed it to get back together again.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> The Palis screwed it up with a little pressure from the US to hold "elections" prematurely.



Elections were held under Arafat.  He rigged the election by letting Khalil, a little known 72 yr old grandmother, be his only opposition.........and she still got 12% of the vote.
Middle east is not known for truly fair elections.  Most are won by 90+%, which to westerners is seen as near impossible.  The process is still somewhat alien to the people.  Elections are not choices but affirmation.  There is no surprise as to who will win.  More often than not candidates are forced off the ballot or are eliminated, permanently.
The fact that hamas was elected to parliament at all was a fluke.  Fatah won the most votes, but the vote was split between too many candidates and hamas slid in by default.  They did not have popular support even in gaza.  After the elections they forced their way into control of gaza and killed or threw out fatah members of government.

Real democracy for the arabs is still quite a way off.  They are still predominantly a tribal people.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Thats quite an exaggeration.  Way to go.  Ignore the mistakes and errors of the Palis themselves and blame all that on anybody else you hate. Thats what makes this forum a study in denial.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 11, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The Palis screwed it up with a little pressure from the US to hold "elections" prematurely.
> ...



That is certainly the miscalculation of the American neocons who envisioned a domino theory of democracy 
Starting with Iraq ending in the chaos of the Arab Spring.  But Israel should have known better than to be blind sided by the Hamas intrusion into Pali Nationalism.  The majority of Arab countries NEED strongman secular dictators OR some form of theocracy. What a choice eh?  But it IS their choice to make.  Pali nationalism just might NEED another Arafat. Hopefully one who appreciates the value of economic development and peace.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore, et al,

If only America was as powerful as it would actually have to be to have managed all it is accused of.



P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is not America's fault.  HAMAS is a "designated terrorist organization" --- and as such, under *Security Council Resolution 1373*, America cannot legally "providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts;" under international law and under domestic federal law.

This is really the case of the Arab Palestinians electing a terrorist organization to a position of power and leadership --- yet, unable to take responsibility for their actions and the consequences that followed.

The democratic process in the State of Palestine (alla 1988), is in the hands of the Palestinians; and has always been in the hands of Palestinians.  No one ever took that away from the Palestinians; not Israel and not America.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Challenger (Jul 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> If only America was as powerful as it would actually have to be to have managed all it is accused of.
> 
> ...



Bizarre argument. *America* designated Hamas as a terrorist organisation because of intense Zionist pressure, both foreign and domestic, which it now uses as an excuse not provide "any form of support". Interesting that SCR1373 fails to define the "terrorism" it rails against.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> If only America was as powerful as it would actually have to be to have managed all it is accused of.
> 
> ...


Where does the UN call Hamas a terrorist organization?

Reaffirming further
that such acts, like any act of *international terrorism*,
constitute a threat to* international peace and security,*​
Hamas does not operate outside of its own territory.

Reaffirming
the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence as
recognized by the Charter of the United Nations as reiterated in resolution 1368
(2001)

Deeply concerned
by the increase, in various regions of the world, of acts of
terrorism *motivated by intolerance or extremism,*​

Hamas is a national liberation movement. The Palestinians have the right, as stated above, to defend themselves.

The Palestinians did not elect terrorists. They are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. They don't buy into the  third grade name calling of Israel and its toadies in the west.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...


I have always thought that.

Israel tells the US to designate Hamas, and every other political party in Palestine, as terrorists.

The US response was yawza boss. What a bunch of stooges.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> If only America was as powerful as it would actually have to be to have managed all it is accused of.
> 
> ...


If only America was as powerful as it would actually have to be to have managed all it is accused of.​
It doesn't take that much to overthrow a government hanging on by its fingernails under occupation.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...







This is the latest I can find and it is comprehensive


Gaza imports - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...







 What treaty and when was it signed by a representative of gaza ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...







 Howza bout a link to this claim then, and not some islamomoron propaganda source either


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...








 How many times have these been destroyed as nothing more than islamonazi propaganda and lies


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Didya WATCH it? Because at the end, the protesters said IN ENGLISH -- "We are International" presumably meaning they were in Intl waters and OUT of the six mile limit. Make up your mind Billo. Territorial or Intl..
> ...







 Not according to maritime law it isn't, it might be under dildo law though. If a vessel is suspected of smuggling or carrying contraband then it can be boarded and taken to a neutral port. If they refuse to heave to they can be fired on and sunk under international maritime law


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I still had problems finding out the CURRENT rules for the blockade.. Why isn't there a precise statement of what can go in and out of Gaza? THAT -- bugs me... GREATLY..
> ...






 Not if the blockade is deemed legal and the goods banned are not those needed to sustain life. As my post giving the list of banned goods shows the Palestinians are getting humanitarian supplies, just not goods that can be used for military/offensive purposes. The goods banned are on an international treaty list of goods that can be banned.
 It is hamas that withholds the goods from the people once they enter gaza and are unloaded and placed in hamas warehouses.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...








 But I bet he has seen many chocolate fuelled ones  ( do some research on the subject, and look at dual use products )


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 haven't you stated that Oslo is finished and no longer applies, so make your mind up time does Oslo still exist and if it does why does it only apply to Israel ?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore, et al,

Most countries can see that Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) operated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; through the use f violent acts or acts dangerous to human life.  HAMAS Operations appear intended:

(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; 
ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or 
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping​HAMAS and the Arab Palestinian people only plays the defense game when it to their advantage.  What HAMAS does is provoke a fight or confrontation.  THEN: As Islreal responds to the provocation, HAMAS cries out that Israel using excessive force.


P F Tinmore said:


> Hamas is a national liberation movement. The Palestinians have the right, as stated above, to defend themselves.
> 
> The Palestinians did not elect terrorists. They are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. They don't buy into the  third grade name calling of Israel and its toadies in the west.


*(COMMENT)*

HAMAS has both threaten to use international terrorism, and actually used international terrorism.  The recognition of the UN extends to:

_Reaffirms_ the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967; (*A/RES/67/19*) (2012)
_Affirms _the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967; (*A/RES/43/177*) (1988)

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 All covered by an International treaty as banned dual use goods.    So just what is your point about Israel sticking to International law again.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 While you will only believe islamomorn propaganda and ignore the truth


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








 How so, are they holding a gun to the heads of every Palestinian stopping them from electing new leaders and then evicting the current ones by force of arms. The Palestinian people could elect new leaders at any time if they so wished, but they don't giving the current leaders the go ahead to do as they want.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...








 How about a link from a non partisan source saying that this happened, it must include the words Zionist pressure both foreign and domestic ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Most countries can see that Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) operated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; through the use f violent acts or acts dangerous to human life.  HAMAS Operations appear intended:
> 
> ...


HAMAS and the Arab Palestinian people only plays the defense game when it to their advantage. What HAMAS does is provoke a fight or confrontation. THEN: As Islreal responds to the provocation, HAMAS cries out that Israel using excessive force.​
The Zionist aggression against the Palestinians preceded Hamas by 80 years. Hamas never provoked anything. They only respond to this long term aggression.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


*Never!*


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...







 Then produce links showing where they have defended themselves.    In gaza the Palestinians are now calling hamas terrorists


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...







 So they don't fire illegal rockets at Israel then ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







You mean you have never taken in the facts that destroy these islamonazi propaganda video's


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...







So what about the riots against the Jews in Palestine from 1917, that resulted in many getting murdered. So where was the Zionist aggression then ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Oh no, not Israel's rocket propaganda shtick again.

Israel's violence against Palestinians preceded rockets by many decades.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 12, 2015)

"P F Tinmore,  et al,

Yeah, you keep dropping back towards a century ago in order to make your justification.



P F Tinmore said:


> The Zionist aggression against the Palestinians preceded Hamas by 80 years. Hamas never provoked anything. They only respond to this long term aggression.


*(QUESTION)*

Contemporary times in this century:

In 2005 --- when Israel disengaged and withdrew from the Gaza Strip, how long was it before HAMAS started firing rockets and mortars into Israel?  _(Remember, the blockade had not started yet.)_


Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


What facts?

I gave two reports. One from a Canadian journalist (a Jew) on Canadian TV. Another by a British journalist (religion unknown but probably not Islamic) on Amy Goodman's (a Jew) American TV show Democracy Now.

And you play the islamonazi card.

What a dumbfuck.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> "P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Yeah, you keep dropping back towards a century ago in order to make your justification.
> 
> ...


In 2005 --- when Israel disengaged and withdrew from the Gaza Strip,​
They didn't. That is just another of the looooooooooooooooong list of Israel's lies.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> "P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Yeah, you keep dropping back towards a century ago in order to make your justification.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you keep dropping back towards a century ago in order to make your justification.​
You have to go back to where the violence began. You cannot start history at a time of your choosing.

Indeed, and Israel's violations continue to today.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 And Palestinian mass murder of Jews predates the Mandate by many centuries. Or don't you count that as being relevant. Look at the history of Israel and you see constant attacks from the islamonazi's . But more to the point what defensive measures have hamas taken since coming to power that were not initiated by the use of illegal rockets. Time for the UN to charge Palestine with war crimes over the use of these rockets


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







Yes we know you are which is why you ignore all posts that destroy your islamonazi propaganda lies


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > "P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 So show where the Israeli's were in gaza after August 2005 then. If not one Israeli citizen was inside the cease fire lines after August 2005 then they disengaged and retired behind those ceasefire lines.  No International law that saws they have to allow free passage in or out of Israel is there.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > "P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...







So we need to go back to the 7C when mohammed started the genocide of the Jews in Medina and made it a command of islam to wipe out the Jews.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Actually the Goldstone Report did allege violations by resistance groups and the PA.

Israel should ensure that the report move forward. Israel is missing a golden opportunity here.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


I already asked that and you responded with bullcrap. Why don't you just answer the question?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 If it came from the UN as a whole it would be better as then you team Palestine members could not point your fingers and say that Israel is up to its usual tricks. More recently the P.A. started court proceedings against Israel for war crimes alleged last summer. The ICC/ICJ stated they could not take them any further against Israel but had found that the Palestinians had committed numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity and wanted to proceed on these cases. The P.A. withdrew its complaints so stopping the cases against the Palestinians.
 So as recently as just this year the UN body has said that the rockets are illegal weapons and acts of terrorism


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 I did, I just did not give the answer you wanted to see,


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> So show where the Israeli's were in gaza after August 2005 then. If not one Israeli citizen was inside the cease fire lines after August 2005 then they disengaged and retired behind those ceasefire lines.  No International law that saws they have to allow free passage in or out of Israel is there.


Yeah, but there is a law that say's you cannot collectively punish an entire population of people, which is exactly what the blockade is doing.

And that law, is a war crime.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> I see no parallel there.  Israel didnt cause the breakdown of Pali national democracy.


It's a little hard setting up a democracy, when you live under martial law.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 12, 2015)

Excuses, excuses, excuses... the Palestinians wouldn't recognize Democracy if it came up and bit them on the ass.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 12, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Excuses, excuses, excuses... the Palestinians wouldn't recognize Democracy if it came up and bit them on the ass.


 
Or any Arab, for that matter.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I see no parallel there.  Israel didnt cause the breakdown of Pali national democracy.
> ...



The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.

Do SOMETHING -- other than moaning about how things get worse all the time..

Funny that American Indians on reservations had the same victim mentality until they learned the benefits of organizational skills. NOW -- they intend to win back America -- one roll of the dice at a time..


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 12, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Excuses, excuses, excuses... the Palestinians wouldn't recognize Democracy if it came up and bit them on the ass.
> ...


OK... OK... OK... I was tryin' to be nice... ya caught me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ... busted and disgusted...


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > So show where the Israeli's were in gaza after August 2005 then. If not one Israeli citizen was inside the cease fire lines after August 2005 then they disengaged and retired behind those ceasefire lines.  No International law that saws they have to allow free passage in or out of Israel is there.
> ...







If that was the case then it would have been lifted by now. But seeing as it follows the rules of international law it does not collectively punish the Palestinians. Read the link I gave to the goods banned under International treaty and see that Israel is barely banning half of them. The only people collectively punishing the gazan people is hamas who steal all the goods coming in and sell it on the black market.


 So where are the charge sheets issued by the ICC/ICJ detailing these alleged war crimes, without them you are LYING


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Hamas was taken by surprised.   Palestinians were not prepared for government.  Mostly those in power had been chosen not elected.  Hamas was a militant group not a political one.  It's leaders were a religious figure and military figure.
Everyone expected fatah to win, the way the election was run did not have a primary were one from each party were competing against each other.  It was mostly fatah against fatah, with a few hamas thrown in the mix.
Israel wanted a political system to work for the palestinians, but had no control of the management of the elections.  There were international overseers.  Imagine one democrat against 20 republicans in a single election.  It was like no election the palestinians had had before. Arafat had basically decided who was on the list.  Without Arafat it became a free for all.  Arafat had not been elected by the people but picked by the AL and had held power for so long the palestinians knew no one else.  Elections locally in the camps often resulted in blood in the streets.  Fights between factions were violent, it was not a beauty contest or about ideas for the future.  It was strength.  Who would fight the Israelis, who would stand against the Israelis, who would not surrender to the Israelis.  The palestinians, as a people, were not really prepared for politics.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.


You're full of shit!

The Pals were beginning to have that government you claimed they should have, when Hamas and Fatah came to terms with their unity government.  The Israeli's immediately told a bunch of bullshit lies and attacked Gaza.

In other words, Israel will not allow them to have an organizational government.




flacaltenn said:


> Do SOMETHING -- other than moaning about how things get worse all the time..


I have.  You just don't have the stones to acknowledge it.




flacaltenn said:


> Funny that American Indians on reservations had the same victim mentality until they learned the benefits of organizational skills. NOW -- they intend to win back America -- one roll of the dice at a time..


So when do the Pals get their casino's?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 12, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Hamas was taken by surprised.   Palestinians were not prepared for government.  Mostly those in power had been chosen not elected.  Hamas was a militant group not a political one.  It's leaders were a religious figure and military figure.
> Everyone expected fatah to win, the way the election was run did not have a primary were one from each party were competing against each other.  It was mostly fatah against fatah, with a few hamas thrown in the mix.
> Israel wanted a political system to work for the palestinians, but had no control of the management of the elections.  There were international overseers.  Imagine one democrat against 20 republicans in a single election.  It was like no election the palestinians had had before. Arafat had basically decided who was on the list.  Without Arafat it became a free for all.  Arafat had not been elected by the people but picked by the AL and had held power for so long the palestinians knew no one else.  Elections locally in the camps often resulted in blood in the streets.  Fights between factions were violent, it was not a beauty contest or about ideas for the future.  It was strength.  Who would fight the Israelis, who would stand against the Israelis, who would not surrender to the Israelis.  The palestinians, as a people, were not really prepared for politics.


The election was none of Israel's fucking business.

Independent international observers stated the election was fair and democratic.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> If that was the case then it would have been lifted by now.


Why would it be lifted?  Israel doesn't give a shit about international law.



Phoenall said:


> But seeing as it follows the rules of international law it does not collectively punish the Palestinians.


You are one fucked up piece of shit!



Phoenall said:


> Read the link I gave to the goods banned under International treaty and see that Israel is barely banning half of them. The only people collectively punishing the gazan people is hamas who steal all the goods coming in and sell it on the black market.


Israel has no right to ban any of them.



Phoenall said:


> So where are the charge sheets issued by the ICC/ICJ detailing these alleged war crimes, without them you are LYING


You don't decide what is (and what is not) international law.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.
> ...







 How is it that only those who read the white supremacist Nazi sites are the only ones that seem to believe that Israel has it in their power to stop hamas and fatah from unifying.

 What posting half truths and propaganda on this board

 As soon as they build them and stop spending their money on weapons to kill Jews with.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas was taken by surprised.   Palestinians were not prepared for government.  Mostly those in power had been chosen not elected.  Hamas was a militant group not a political one.  It's leaders were a religious figure and military figure.
> ...







 And just how did Israel interfere with the election or the results, specially with international observers in evidence


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > If that was the case then it would have been lifted by now.
> ...







 How about a verifiable link from a non partisan source to prove your claim

 Why because it is the truth and you cant handle the truth can you

 Who says as International law gives them that right as a non violent means of stopping attacks.

 Nor do you, yet you seem to think that you can when it deals with the Jews


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.
> ...



Dont think that plan would work.  Jews and Scots are too tight with money...  But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them,  they might own the place in 20 years......


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Dont think that plan would work.  Jews and Scots are too tight with money...  But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them,  they might own the place in 20 years......


I hate peas!  Always have, always will.

How come I can't PM you?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 12, 2015)

Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
Also solve the fishing issue?  FISH FARMING.  Its the kind of innovated solution the Israelis might come up with. 

But in this case, the secret weapon would be salmon,  and a battery of fish smokers.
Hell,  Ive just shifted the balance of power in the Holy Land.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Dont think that plan would work.  Jews and Scots are too tight with money...  But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them,  they might own the place in 20 years......
> ...







Chick peas are not the same as green peas, they are an eastern delicacy


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




Imagine that. An expert on the I/P conflict that doesnt know how humus is made......


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
> Also solve the fishing issue?  FISH FARMING.  Its the kind of innovated solution the Israelis might come up with.
> 
> But in this case, the secret weapon would be salmon,  and a battery of fish smokers.
> Hell,  Ive just shifted the balance of power in the Holy Land.





 White fish are a better option as they are less polluting, salmon are a dirty fish prone to parasite infestations and need to be tended constantly. Sea bass are an option as they are protected and only farmed fish can be sold under 42 cm ( 16 inches ). I am sure that with Israel's help the Palestinians could have a thriving fish farm industry in no time and a ready market for all the fish they could farm


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...







 I like them in soups just as they are, they add bulk, fibre and crunch


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
> Also solve the fishing issue?  FISH FARMING.  Its the kind of innovated solution the Israelis might come up with.
> 
> But in this case, the secret weapon would be salmon,  and a battery of fish smokers.
> Hell,  Ive just shifted the balance of power in the Holy Land.



Gaza has fish farms.  Better quality fish but they cost more for the consumer.  Israel extended the fishing limits but their first concern is security.   Gaza has fish, cattle, sheep, goats and chickens.  They grow most of their own vegetable.  Four for bread is one of the few things that the UN supplied that could not be produced in gaza.  Sweets, sugar, for pasteries is another.  They have some honey but sweet pasteries are very popular.  Baked goods, chocolate, candy, beverages, etc. need sugar.  Sugar is grown or processed in much of the middle east and north africa, just not gaza.  Some sugar cane but not enough for the needs of the palestinians.  It is mostly used for juicing.

Not always the shortage of supplies but like the fuel, gaza has to pay the PA for fuel which is then transported to gaza.  Hamas does not want to pay the taxes to the PA.  Arab states have periodically payed for emergency supplies but it is more the unwillingness to pay than the availability that is the problem.  When there is a gut of fuel, hamas will still ration fuel to a few hours a day.  Israel supplies 1/3 of the electricity for gaza.  Egypt supplies 1/3.  It is the 1/3 in central gaza that hamas is controlling.  It is not that the whole of gaza is without power, fuel, etc.  Hamas makes a big publicity spectral of shortages even when there is no need.  it gives the world the image of gaza being strangled by the blockade and being crushed by Israel.
Hamas can transport wild zoo animals, jewelry and expensive luxury cars through the tunnels but deprive their own people to make them seem more pitiable.  It is a magical illusion on a world stage.  It keeps a level of anger/dissatisfaction simmering within the gazans that is hamas created and fed.  It was hamas violence that made the blockade necessary in the first place.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
> ...




Whitefish it is then partner.  Want to go halvsies with me and be the Jewish founding fathers of the Pali smoked fish industry?  Seriously,  i can smelll the peace already.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 12, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
> ...



Aw cmon A-chat, dont be such a doubter.  Wind and solar.  Screw big energy.  You go spy on the existing fish farming and report back.  Not a WORD about smoked whitefish.....


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Gaza and Egypt have a variety of whitefish.  Fish from egypt is actually about half the price than from gazan fishermen.
Four commercial fish farms in gaza produce 220 metric tons of fish.  Fried or grilled fish is faster and more popular than smoked fish.  Not an abundance of wood for smoking or a need to preserve fish long term as in norther countries with long hard winters.

as for solar......
Gaza to get 30 MW of solar energy REVE


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



I don't think anyone who hasn't eaten a falafel pita with humus, tahini, salad and sauerkraut, should be allowed to give an opinion on the I/P conflict.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 12, 2015)

http://www.ijser.org/researchpaper\A-PARAMETRIC-STUDY-OF-SOLAR-AND-WIND-ENERGY-IN-GAZA-STRIP.pdf
Gaza - renewable energy for a just and durable peace - The Ecologist
http://library.iugaza.edu.ps/thesis/107606.pdf
Wind energy in West Bank and Gaza Strip


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 12, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Sauerkraut?  Pickled turnips, carrots, peppers, cauliflower and beans maybe.

I'd rather have shawarma than falafel


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
> Also solve the fishing issue?  FISH FARMING.  Its the kind of innovated solution the Israelis might come up with.
> 
> But in this case, the secret weapon would be salmon,  and a battery of fish smokers.
> Hell,  Ive just shifted the balance of power in the Holy Land.


FISH FARMING. Its the kind of innovated solution the Israelis might come up with.​
You're late. Already being done. Do you think the Palestinians need Israelis to think for them?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
> ...



So-called "Palestinians" represent a failed Islamic terrorist enclave. If not for a dedicated UN welfare agency to prop up the terrorist snake pit, "Palestinians" would be just another name for just another Islamic terrorist organization.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 12, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



UN can't afford to prop them up any more.  They cut funding by almost 80%


----------



## montelatici (Jul 12, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



It is more like the Israeli Jews represent a terrorist enclave in an Arab land area.  Killing a few thousand Christian and Muslim Palestinians every 2 years or so, makes them more the terrorists than the Christians and Muslims.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
> ...



Are these the same terrorists posing as fishermen?


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


It is more like the Israeli Jews represent the only free democratic tolerant nation in an ocean of violent intolerant Muslim and Arab terrorist assholes out to kill all Jews and Christians they can't get their hand on.  

There, corrected it for you, MonkeyNazi.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Are these the same terrorists posing as fishermen?


No, you protected piece of shit, they are fishermen fishing.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Are these the same terrorists posing as fishermen?
> ...



And what about the terrorists posing as fishermen, or boats carrying weapons to terrorists disguised, as fishing boats, you big mouth low IQ piece of shit?
*
Last month, a joint ISA-IDF operation uncovered tons worth of materials being smuggled on a vessel off the coast of Gaza. The materials, originating from the Sinai Peninsula, were meant for Hamas in the Gaza Strip and led to the arrest of three suspects.
The craft was disguised as a fishing boat, but underneath the fishing gear liquid fiberglass was concealed. The liquid fiberglass was intended for Hamas and meant to be used in the manufacturing of rockets and mortars.*

On January 19, IDF forces identified a suspicious boat making its way towards the Gaza Strip. The navy, in conjunction with the Israel Security Agency (ISA), intercepted the vessel after requesting that the passengers stop the boat.

The three suspects, Mahmed Bechar, Ahmed Zaidi and Awad Zaidi, were arrested and interrogated by the ISA. During the interrogation, the suspects admitted that they were sent to collect the manufacturing materials from the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt and to deliver the liquid fiberglass to Hamas’ military wing.

Furthermore, the three men provided detailed information about previous weapon smuggling activities and how Hamas intended to use the fishermen and smugglers for future smuggling attempts. On February 11, charges were filed against all three suspects for taking part in security-related crimes in the district court in Beer Sheva.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
> ...


Gaza is not under occupation you ignorant fool, it is under a blockade, which is legal.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> These Zionists are so irrational.  Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it.
> 
> How can they look themselves in a mirror after they post such nonsense?


The blockade has been deemed legal by the international community, as Gaza is ruled by a terrorist organization.

These IslamoNazi terrorist worshipers are so irrational.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> And what about the terrorists posing as fishermen, or boats carrying weapons to terrorists disguised, as fishing boats, you big mouth low IQ piece of shit?
> *
> Last month, a joint ISA-IDF operation uncovered tons worth of materials being smuggled on a vessel off the coast of Gaza. The materials, originating from the Sinai Peninsula, were meant for Hamas in the Gaza Strip and led to the arrest of three suspects.
> The craft was disguised as a fishing boat, but underneath the fishing gear liquid fiberglass was concealed. The liquid fiberglass was intended for Hamas and meant to be used in the manufacturing of rockets and mortars.*
> ...


I hate to burst your bubble,_* Roufti the Mufti*_, but that's not terrorism.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> The blockade has been deemed legal by the international community,


  Wrong.  That was the Palmer Commission, which wasn't even convened to determine the legality of the blockade.  They even admit, it was just an opinion piece.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Gaza is not under occupation you ignorant fool, it is under a blockade, which is legal.


Israel has "effective control" over 80% of the area.

That satisfies the definition of an occupation.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > These Zionists are so irrational.  Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it.
> ...





Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I still had problems finding out the CURRENT rules for the blockade.. Why isn't there a precise statement of what can go in and out of Gaza? THAT -- bugs me... GREATLY..
> ...



Hamas can have the blockade removed.  All it needs to do is stop the terror and aggression, stop the rockets, the terror tunnels, and negotiate a good faith truce with the Israelis.  Truth is Israel cares more for the Palestinians than Hamas.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Gaza is not under occupation you ignorant fool, it is under a blockade, which is legal.
> ...



Yeah, and rightly so.  But it is not under occupation.  Both Egypt and Israel are controlling what goes into an area that is being ruled by a terrorist govt.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Maybe that's why Hamas refuses to hold elections.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...



Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the European union, Canada, Australia, Japan, and more recently, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and UAE. dufus.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I see no parallel there.  Israel didnt cause the breakdown of Pali national democracy.
> ...


 Bzzzz wrong again, dipshit.  For there to be martial law there would have to be troops on the ground.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > And what about the terrorists posing as fishermen, or boats carrying weapons to terrorists disguised, as fishing boats, you big mouth low IQ piece of shit?
> ...



Hate to burst your bubble, it is terrorism.  And regardless of what it is, Israel has every right to arrest those dirtbags.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The blockade has been deemed legal by the international community,
> ...


Wrong.  The blockade was deemed legal.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...





 Why not sounds like a good investment for the future, as long as we don't have to pay hamas protection money.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...







 Liquid smoke is the way now, as not many nations allow old fashioned smoke houses. You can taste the difference if you are used to the real thing. I wonder if smoked lamb, goat and cow would catch on like smoked bacon has in the west.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> http://www.ijser.org/researchpaper\A-PARAMETRIC-STUDY-OF-SOLAR-AND-WIND-ENERGY-IN-GAZA-STRIP.pdf
> Gaza - renewable energy for a just and durable peace - The Ecologist
> http://library.iugaza.edu.ps/thesis/107606.pdf
> Wind energy in West Bank and Gaza Strip







Only problem with wind energy is its duty cycle of less than 10%. The turbines would need to have a life of 50 years maintenance free just to break even as the population of Europe are now finding out after being conned by energy firms.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




My brother is smoking tuna every few weeks.  I like them marinated with apple juice, pineapple juice and just a bit of lemon juice.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously,  you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
> ...







 But are they farming the right fish and being ecologically sound in the process. I have seen far too many fish farms go bust because they went for maximum profits in the short term and not realising they are polluting the habitat for decades to come.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...







 Try brine seasoned with dill, pepper and chilli to cure the fish first, then cold smoke so the fish is still raw. Fry in a little olive oil until the colour just meets turning once. Serve on a bed of rocket with new potato's


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 Which civilised nations has declared Israel to be terrorist then ?


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




sultan ibrahim is a highly popular fish.  Lightly floured, deep fried and served with pieces of flat bread also deep fried.  The best

I think they raise shrimp and salmon as well.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Are these the same terrorists posing as fishermen?
> ...







 Take it from a semi commercial fisherman you don't fish in the Med with cargo nets, you use monofilament purse nets with a mesh size of 25mm ( 1 inch ). A 4 to 6 inch cargo net is used to snag/snare something on the bottom or at mid water like a crate or package. The purse net would be destroyed by such a package and so would cost more to replace than the value of the package.

 So the video you peddle of alleged fishermen is a fake as they are using 4 inch cargo netting and not a monofilament purse net. You are just too easy to show as being a brainwashed Jew hater when you insist on peddling the same fake video's


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Are these the same terrorists posing as fishermen?
> ...







 Then they need to go back to school as they are making a complete hash of it


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Dildo_Bill the big mouth with the low IQ:
> ...








 Your words repeated so it must be you under zone 2 immunity, do you think the mods take pity on your mental condition ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > And what about the terrorists posing as fishermen, or boats carrying weapons to terrorists disguised, as fishing boats, you big mouth low IQ piece of shit?
> ...








 Actually it is aiding and abetting terrorism which in the UK carries a higher sentence


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Try a tempura batter made with chilled carbonated water, dip the fish in egg then flour then egg and finally in the batter. Fry until golden brown. Works well with king prawns as well. Serve with a twist of lemon and tartar sauce


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The blockade has been deemed legal by the international community,
> ...






 Try the ICC/ICJ as the international body that deemed the blockade legal when they declared the occupation suspect


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Gaza is not under occupation you ignorant fool, it is under a blockade, which is legal.
> ...







 NOPE it does not exercise any control over the land at all so does not meet with definition of occupation.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Your words repeated so it must be you under zone 2 immunity, do you think the mods take pity on your mental condition ?


What was repeated and where was it said the first time?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Try the ICC/ICJ as the international body that deemed the blockade legal when they declared the occupation suspect


More troll lies.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Take it from a semi commercial fisherman you don't fish in the Med with cargo nets, you use monofilament purse nets with a mesh size of 25mm ( 1 inch ). A 4 to 6 inch cargo net is used to snag/snare something on the bottom or at mid water like a crate or package. The purse net would be destroyed by such a package and so would cost more to replace than the value of the package.
> 
> So the video you peddle of alleged fishermen is a fake as they are using 4 inch cargo netting and not a monofilament purse net. You are just too easy to show as being a brainwashed Jew hater when you insist on peddling the same fake video's


The video shows Palestinian's fishing and the IDF shooting at them.

There is nothing that justifies that behavior.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Wrong.  The blockade was deemed legal.


Prove it.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Hate to burst your bubble, it is terrorism.  And regardless of what it is, Israel has every right to arrest those dirtbags.


You do not have a right to tell others what they can (and cannot) have on their own property.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Bzzzz wrong again, dipshit.  For there to be martial law there would have to be troops on the ground.


There are troops on the ground.

How do think the blockade is enforced?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Yeah, and rightly so.  But it is not under occupation.  Both Egypt and Israel are controlling what goes into an area that is being ruled by a terrorist govt.


You say it _"not under occupation",_ then admit Israel controls the area.

Care to make any more dumbass statements?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Hamas can have the blockade removed.  All it needs to do is stop the terror and aggression, stop the rockets, the terror tunnels, and negotiate a good faith truce with the Israelis.  Truth is Israel cares more for the Palestinians than Hamas.


All Israel needs to do, is honor international law and human rights.

All you need to do, is to stop lying to yourself.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> HAMAS and the Arab Palestinian people only plays the defense game when it to their advantage. What HAMAS does is provoke a fight or confrontation. THEN: As Islreal responds to the provocation, HAMAS cries out that Israel using excessive force.



Are you seriously saying Zionist israel doesn't play the "self defence" card when it's to their advantage? The reality is that It's zionist israel that does the provoking, whenever they want to "cut the grass" or "mow the lawn" Palestinian resistance rocket and mortar attacks almost always follow Zionist targeted assassinations or airstrikes against "suspected terrorist targets"  



RoccoR said:


> Most countries...



Really? Don't you mean most Western countries. Hamas does not appear on the U.N. SC list of sanctioned organisations http://www.un.org/sc/committees/consolidated.pdf

I suspect most countries see HAMAs as a legitimate indigenous resistance movement against a colonial oppressor.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas can have the blockade removed.  All it needs to do is stop the terror and aggression, stop the rockets, the terror tunnels, and negotiate a good faith truce with the Israelis.  Truth is Israel cares more for the Palestinians than Hamas.
> ...


A simpletons statement.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Your words repeated so it must be you under zone 2 immunity, do you think the mods take pity on your mental condition ?
> ...






 Your own words from your post 2 above the one you complained about


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Try the ICC/ICJ as the international body that deemed the blockade legal when they declared the occupation suspect
> ...






 Always the sane answer when you are shown to be wrong.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Take it from a semi commercial fisherman you don't fish in the Med with cargo nets, you use monofilament purse nets with a mesh size of 25mm ( 1 inch ). A 4 to 6 inch cargo net is used to snag/snare something on the bottom or at mid water like a crate or package. The purse net would be destroyed by such a package and so would cost more to replace than the value of the package.
> ...







 Not even terrorism and smuggling. and the video shows smugglers using cargo nets that would not catch any fish worth eating.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hate to burst your bubble, it is terrorism.  And regardless of what it is, Israel has every right to arrest those dirtbags.
> ...







 Wrong again dildo, even in the US you cant have smuggled goods on your property


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Bzzzz wrong again, dipshit.  For there to be martial law there would have to be troops on the ground.
> ...






 Then show them inside gaza at this very moment in time. No troops means no occupation under International law.
 The blockade is enforced from inside Israel and Egypt as shown by the many reports on the blockade


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > HAMAS and the Arab Palestinian people only plays the defense game when it to their advantage. What HAMAS does is provoke a fight or confrontation. THEN: As Islreal responds to the provocation, HAMAS cries out that Israel using excessive force.
> ...





 And another islamonazi propagandist racist uses the term Zionist out of context and as a racial slur thinking that the law wont apply.

 And Israeli airstrikes always follow hamas attacks, like last years murder of 3 Israeli boys led to Israeli arrests of suspects that led to illegal rockets being fired


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, and rightly so.  But it is not under occupation.  Both Egypt and Israel are controlling what goes into an area that is being ruled by a terrorist govt.
> ...







 Read it again Israel and Egypt control what goes in and out, they don't occupy any part of gaza in the process.

 Care to make an even bigger fool of your self


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas can have the blockade removed.  All it needs to do is stop the terror and aggression, stop the rockets, the terror tunnels, and negotiate a good faith truce with the Israelis.  Truth is Israel cares more for the Palestinians than Hamas.
> ...






 They do which is why they are not up in front of the ICC/ICJ


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Which one, Roudy's or Billo_Really's?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Yours and Billy Bo Bobs, obviously. These silly Flotilla Escapades™ are propaganda stunts. They get minimal attention and even less credibility for that very reason. The islamist various islamic terrorist groups that promote these absurdities seek only to further fleece the international community for kafir dollars.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...






All of team palestines as they have proven themselves to be simpletons


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Of course they're publicity stunts, that's their whole point. Noone seriously expects them to evade the Zionist navy and actually reach Gaza; their whole purpose is to focus attention on the continuing Zionist Seige and oppression of the Palestinians, even if only for a few days. These stunts are designed to make those politicians, bought and paid for by the Zionist lobbies, answer uncomfortable questions.

Oh, "Which one, Roudy's or Billo_Really's?" didn't include me as an answer option. I suppose that explains your viewpoint, though.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...






 You would have thought after the last one that the activists, terrorists and stooges would have realised that as a publicity stunt it failed. The politicians being much more intelligent than you know that Israel is acting within international law so ignore the screeches of outrage from the likes of you.  And once again you use the term Zionist out of context and in a racially provocative manner hoping that the authorities don't realise that it is the Jew haters latest get out word.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


What law makes it illegal for Palestinians to import weapons?


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Wrong again, Roudy. What a country's offocial position is and what goes on in the background are two different things. Saudi Arabia seems to have changed their position on the Muslim Brotherhood, which means Jordan, the UAE and Egypt are likely to follow suit. Good news for the Palestinian Resistance movement. The E.U. is officially "on the fence" pending the result of an appeal, but European diplomats are taking advantage of the situation to talk with their opposite numbers in the Palestinian Resistance. The Palestinian Resistance is also in unofficial talks with many South American countries, so things aren't as bleak as the Zionists would have us believe.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...








1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.

2. Dual Use goods and items: liable to be used, side by side with their civilian purposes, for the development, production, installation or enhancement of military capabilities and terrorist capacities. This list comprises:

Items listed under the Wassenaar Arrangement: As specified in the updated (2008) "Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Arms and Dual Use Goods and Technologies - List of Dual Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List."

The Wassenaar Arrangement Homepage


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


What causes your continuing confusion regarding Islamic terrorism and so-called "Palestinian" Arabs?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


I can appreciate the rare bit of honesty coming from enablers of Islamic terrorism. Yes, the silly Terrorist Flotillas™ are publicity stunts and they're intended to provoke confrontations. Its the typical pattern of behavior we see from the various Islamic terrorist groups hosted by the "Palestinian" arabs. 

What they focus attention on is the continuing failure of "Palestinian" Arabs to cobble together a functioning society, capable of operating as an independent entity. There are consequences for hosting and maintaining Islamic terrorist organizations and the promotion of a fascist politico- religious ideology that defines Islamism.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Bzzzz wrong again, dipshit.  For there to be martial law there would have to be troops on the ground.
> ...


There are no troops in Gaza, dipshit.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, and rightly so.  But it is not under occupation.  Both Egypt and Israel are controlling what goes into an area that is being ruled by a terrorist govt.
> ...



Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza's northern border, Egypt the South.  That's what happens when you let an area be ruled by terrorist savages.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > HAMAS and the Arab Palestinian people only plays the defense game when it to their advantage. What HAMAS does is provoke a fight or confrontation. THEN: As Islreal responds to the provocation, HAMAS cries out that Israel using excessive force.
> ...



You suspect wrong, Hamas is designated as a TERRORIST organization by the U.S., 29 countries of the European Union including Great Britain, Canada, Australia, Japan, and a few other Western nations.  You are always trying to change facts, Achmed.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



They repeat the same bullshit over and over. They literally have nothing but pissing in the wind.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


The Participating States of the Wassenaar Arrangement are:

Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom and United States.​
I don't see Israel or Palestine on this list.

BTW, what Israeli frontier have the Palestinians crossed?


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Egypt only opens the crossing a few days a year.

Five main crossing to Gaza from Israel.  Three are active.  All three have cargo deliveries in and out, one had pedestrians.  Egypt has only one crossing.  Both Israel and egypt have been fighting a war against illegal tunnels from gaza.  Tunnels have numbered in the thousands from gaza, and more are still being fund.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Deflection.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Why do they need to?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


It hasn't gone unnoticed that the Islamic terrorist apologists are silent when it comes to Egypt protecting its citizens by controlling its border area with the Pali' terrorists. 

This is all about insensate Jooooooo hatreds from the usual haters.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



To defend themselves from the Zionists who keep attacking them, it seems.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Everybody has the right to defend themselves.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Scrub the EU for the moment, they're having a re-think. So that's basically USA, Canada, Australia and Japan, toeing the American party line. The rest of the world know better.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


If you were capable of an honest assessment regarding a sovereign nation under constant attack by multiple, antagonistic Islamic terrorist networks with an abiding interest (and Charter that calls for the ethnic cleansing of Israel), it's quite obvious that Israel has shown remarkable restraint dealing with the degenerate, "you love life, we love death" morons next door.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

So do Israelis have the same right to defend themselves, from the rocket attacks, terror tunnels, and suicide bombings.  When a genocidal Islamic terrorist regime who's aim is to destroy the entire Jewish state is in charge of Gaza, then Isrsel has every right to make sure these animals don't get their hands on the weapons to commit mass murder.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


"..... from Islamic terrorists"

There. Fixed that for you, sweetie.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Keep jerking yourself off to it Achmed. The EU has had Hamas on the terrorist list because Hamas fits the bill.  And now even a few Arab countries have jumped on board. It's actually getting worse and not better for you HamASS terrorist lovers. LOL


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



What's to notice? nothing to talk about. 

"Egyptian intelligence officers recently met with senior Hamas officials to discuss the strained relationship between Cairo and Hamas, with the possibility of an Egyptian blockade of Gaza being eased.

Cairo is seemingly taking steps to reconcile with Hamas. The Urgent Matters Appeals Court in Cairo on Saturday threw out a lower court's February ruling that labeled Hamas as "terrorist" -- saying the previous court had no jurisdiction to make such a declaration.

"We consider this a correction to the previous mistake," Hamas said in a statement. "This decision confirms Egypt's steadfast towards its ethnic role towards Palestine and without doubt will have its positive effect on bilateral relations." Egypt reconciliation stretching for Hamas Fatah harmony - UPI.com


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Dream on.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

LOL denial is not a river in Egypt, Achmed.

Hamas angered by Egyptian court s terrorist label - Report Gaza - Egypt - RFI

*Saudis Put Terrorist Label on Hamas / Muslim Brotherhood*
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/w...rrorist-label-on-muslim-brotherhood.html?_r=0

*UAE Doubles Down on Designation of Hamas-linked CAIR as Terrorists*
The UAE reaffirmed its decision to designate the Council on American Islamic Relations a terrorist org, warning the West of Islamic extremists.

*Saudi Arabia Pressures Qatar on Muslim Brotherhood*


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


What's to talk about is that there is action being taken by Egypt to control its border due to the actions of the Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







Don't need to as it is still a valid treaty that any nation can use as the basis of a blockade. The same treaty was used by the UN against Iraq and Iran.

 the one imposed by Israel under the terms of the blockade and the one agreed in all the cease fires with hamas/fatah


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 A direct question can not be deflection.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 And again the islamomoron uses the term Zionist out of context and in a racist manner


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Then detail how murdering 3 boys in cold blood, premeditated at the highest level of hamas is defence. Then detail how firing illegal weapons at Israeli children is defence, And finally how planting H.E under Israeli schools primed to explode when the children were present is defence.
3 instances that you refuse to show are defensive because you know you don't have a leg to stand on. So you deflect and derail every time you are asked to explain how they where defensive


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...







 Lets not scrub the EU, instead lest just scrub the court that removed the terrorist name temporarily. That court speaks only for itself and not for the individual nations. So the terrorist name still stands in the EU nations that have applied it


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Nope. Egypt increased it's border activity along the border because of the increase in domestic "terrorism" Al-Qaeda and IS affiliated groups along with some militant Muslim Brotherhood members who are quite naturally pissed off that their freely elected government was overthrown by a military coup. Al-Sissi lumped the Palestinian Resistance in with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood for a while, but that seems to be changing now. Al-Qaeda and IS are as much a threat to Gaza as they are to Egypt. All this is a topic for another forum in any event.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> LOL denial is not a river in Egypt, Achmed.
> 
> Hamas angered by Egyptian court s terrorist label - Report Gaza - Egypt - RFI
> 
> ...



Oh dear oh dear are you out of date.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...







 Is that the best source you could come up with the Unification Church's media corporation, News World Communications


 Really desperate now to get back on the bottom rung aren't you, and hoping that your futile attempts wont draw too much attention and close scrutiny.

 FAILED AGAIN


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Out of date, ha ha ha. 

Hamas Egypt ties hit new low - Al-Monitor the Pulse of the Middle East


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...







 You mean the gaza branch of the muslim brotherhood do you that recently fired rockets into the Sinai  and took part in terrorist raids. We call them hamas.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Out of date.

Doesn't get better than this, Egypt now executing Hamas members.  Ok so we'll take the terrorist label off, but we'll still you as terrorists.   Ha ha ha.

Death sentences test fragile Hamas-Egypt ties - Al-Monitor the Pulse of the Middle East

Mohammed Morsi waves during his trial at a court in the outskirts of Cairo, May 16, 2015. (photo by REUTERS/Mohamed Abd El Ghany)
Egypt-Hamas ties took a dramatic turn May 16 as the Cairo Criminal Court referred the death sentence against ousted President Mohammed Morsi, along with 105 others, including the Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mohammed Badie, to Egypt's Grand Mufti.

Hamas was provoked by the Egyptian ruling that targeted some Hamas members, including a prisoner and several who are now dead, namely Raed al-Atar, who was killed in the Gaza war last August; Hossam al-Sanea, who was killed in 2008; Tayseer Abu Snaimeh, who was killed during an Israeli raid on Rafah in 2011; and Hassan Salameh, who has been detained in Israeli prisons since 1996 and is sentenced to 48 years in prison.

On May 17, Hamas described the Egyptian ruling as a massacre against its members, adding that the ruling disregards human values, is unfair, was taken in the absence of evidences, is based on falsified facts, and provides a cover for Israeli crimes against Palestinians.

“The Egyptian ruling against a number of Hamas members is deplorable; it has tainted the record of the Egyptian judiciary, and confirms that it is a politicized case,” Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said May 16.

Hamas never thought that its military commanders would be sentenced to death by the Egyptian court; it always thought it would be by an Israeli one. This is because none of the movement’s members were proved to be involved in armed operations on the Egyptian territory. This decision may break the thin thread between Hamas and Cairo.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

This just in, Egypt executes Hamas dickhead!  News at 11!

Egypt executes supporter of Muslim Brotherhood - Al Jazeera English


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> This just in, Egypt executes Hamas dickhead!  News at 11!
> 
> Egypt executes supporter of Muslim Brotherhood - Al Jazeera English



Jordan executes those connected to ISIS.

Some countries don't play revolving doors with terrorists


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Who gives a fuck?  Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the civilized world, and even some Arab countries both officially or secretly.  

A HRC S-1 NGO 4 of 6 July 2006

The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1996/31. 


[4 July 2006] 


__________________ 
* The present document contains the statement that was to have been delivered orally by the organization(s) concerned at the first special session. It is issued, unedited and in the original language(s), as received. Its contents are the sole responsibility of the author(s). 



The Binding Charter of the Current Government of the Palestinian Authority Islamic Resistance Movement – Hamas 

1. We support wholeheartedly all serious efforts by Israel’s Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, and like-minded political leaders worldwide,to find an acceptable two-state solution of peaceful coexistence between two peoples in that small region – with human dignity for all. 

2. However, to understand events in Gaza (and beyond) there is an urgent need to consider the implications of the 1988 Charter of Hamas – available on the net – since Hamas is the legally elected Government of the Palestinian Authority. 1

3. We have been alerting the Commission about the dangers of this binding Charter since January 1989. 2

4. Regarding peace, its Article 13 is totally negative: “_ Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. (…) There is no solution to the Palestinian question except by Jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavours _.”

5. Religious hatred of Jews (not only of Israel) is expressed by a _hadith _or ‘saying’ that concludes Article 7: 
“_ The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews) when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: O Muslims _(…)_ there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him_. “_Only the gharkad tree _[evidently a certain kind of tree]_ would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews_.” (this _hadith_ , quoted from al-Bukhari and Muslim, both considered as highly reliable sources for the _hadith_ or ‘sayings’ of the Prophet Muhammad).

6. Article 8, the slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement – Hamas (widely quoted by clerics and others) is a blueprint for jihadist terrorism: “ _Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its Constitution; Jihad is its path, and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes _.” 3

7. Article 28 widens the circle of hate to include all Jews: “_ Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people: ‘May the cowards never sleep _.’” The Charter in its preface quotes Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, as saying: “ _Israel will exist and continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it _.”

8. Article 32 refers to an infamous century-old forgery in almost the identical terms used by Adolf Hitler: “ _Their plan is embodied in_ ‘_ The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.” _4

9. Article 22 is an update of _The Protocols_, alleging that “_the Jews_ ” control all major world events. It is here quoted in full (but without the koranic verses, which may be found on the various websites in both Arabic and English). This article – and others – indicates the rich ‘conspiracy thinking’ of the Hamas Charter: 

_“For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skilfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broad casting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution _[1789], _the Communist revolution _[1917]_ and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there. You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establish- ment of their state. It was they that instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it _. [quotation from the Koran] _The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are but one nation _.” [Koranic quotes follow to prove the point: “if ye understand.”] 

10. The CONCLUSION has a subheading: The Islamic Resistance Movement is Composed of Soldiers
under which article 36 states, _inter alia_ , that the Islamic Resistance Movement “_ will only serve as a support for all groupings and organizations operating against the Zionist enemy and its lackeys _(…) “_ The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion. Whoever takes Islam as his way of life, be it an organization, a grouping, a country or any other body, the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself as their soldiers and nothing more _.”

11. With the Hamas Charter now binding the Palestinian leadership, its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter. Article 3 (c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention condemns “direct and public incitement to commit genocide,” which is punishable under its article 4. The grave situation in Gaza – and not only in Gaza – is linked to the Hamas Charter of religious and racial hatred, which merits debate at the Human Rights Council as soon as possible. 

*Notes:*

1. www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htmand others. Co-authored (dated 18 August 1988) by Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and Dr. Abd al-Aziz al-Rantisi. See NGO written statements on Hamas: E/CN.4/Sub.2/2003/NGO/41: The 1988 Charter of Hamas and its evil legacy of ‘jihadist-martyrdom bombings’; E/CN.4/Sub.2/2004/NGO/25*: Hamas: Sheikh Yassin / al-Rantisi – The UN and a grave worldwide cultural clash; E/CN.4/Sub.2/2004/NGO/26: Muslim Brotherhood / Hamas / Hizbullah / Al Qaeda: Terror Legacy of ‘Jihad-Martyrdom-Bombings’; E/CN.4/2006/NGO/239: The 1988 Covenant of the Palestinian Islamic Resistance Movement – Hamas 

2. Quoted by David G. Littman on 31 January 1989 (45th session, Commission on Human Rights), main representative of the World Union for Progressive Judaism (and again in 1990 and 1991); and since then, repeated regularly by him on behalf of the Association for World Education, and recently again for the WUPJ. 

3. Article 8 – the slogan of Hamas – is taken from the 1928 Charter of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. Article 2 of the Hamas Charter states: “ _The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organisation which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times _.” And Article 1: “_The Movement’s programme is Islam_.” 
4. Philip Graves, 4. Philip Graves, _The Truth about The Protocols: A Literary Forgery _(London, 1921 – his articles from _The Times_); H. Rauschning, _Hitler speaks_ (London, 1939), pp. 235-36; Norman Cohn, _Warrant for Genocide_: _The Myth of the Jewish World Conspiracy and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion _(London, 1967); Pierre-André Taguieff, _Les Protocoles des Sages de Sion. Introduction à l’étude des Protocoles: un faux et ses usages dans le siécle _(Paris, 1992).


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I always wanted to invest in Gaza under Hamas. What could go wrong? Would match the $12 of Zionist money I contributed to trees to Israel when I was 10...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.ijser.org/researchpaper\A-PARAMETRIC-STUDY-OF-SOLAR-AND-WIND-ENERGY-IN-GAZA-STRIP.pdf
> ...



That's why folks should be looking for "off-grid" applications of wind. To do things that are not time-critical.  Like smoke houses or pumping water or desalinizing water or making hydrogen or biofuels.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 13, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Falafel pitas with all the trimmings are good for those nights you want to go meatless.  In Israel, they top them off with French fries (which they call chips).  Great for vegetarians to get their protein.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), dealing with the trade of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW),  is not in force yet.

The illicit trade in conventional arms and to prevent their diversion to the illicit market, or for unauthorized end use and end users, including in the commission of terrorist acts; and act constituting an offense under international conventions or protocols.

It goes without saying that in contemporary times, SALWs are the tools of choice in civil wars, organized crime, gang warfare and terrorist attacks, and insurgencies. They are well suited for these types of actions to use, to carry, and to conceal. Illicit flows of SALWs are the tools of choice for hostile activities to commence destabilization operations and  regional security considerations.



P F Tinmore said:


> What law makes it illegal for Palestinians to import weapons?


*(COMMENT)*

*To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.* 

There does not have to be.  The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis.  The Israeli attempts at establishing containment and quarantine of the region to reduce access to such conventional weapons is part and parcel, a Chapter VII, Article 51, self-defense measure.

Wherein, the Arab Palestinian have continuously conducted hostile operations against the State of Israel, a recognized member of the UN, for the last 67 years, and have made no good faith effort to establish peaceful relations.  Hostile Arab Palestinians elements under the official control of the Government for the State of Palestine have attempted to use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of the State of Israel, attempting to use bombings, attacks, indiscriminate rocket fire, kidnapping and murder as a forms of coercion threatening the political independence, citizenry, and territorial integrity of Israel.​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> The Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), dealing with the trade of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW),  is not in force yet.
> 
> ...


*To directly answer the question, there is no specific law, applicable to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.* 

There does not have to be. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza, continue to open hostilities with Israel on a regular basis.

So "smuggling" is just more Israeli bullshit.

The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> The Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), dealing with the trade of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW),  is not in force yet.
> 
> ...


have attempted to use of force against the *territorial integrity* and political independence of the State of Israel​
You always crack me up with that lie.

You can go from Rafah to Jericho to Beirut without crossing an Israeli border. Where is this so called Israel that you are talking about?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore, et al,

You can play that game pretending that there is no Israel, but that is just nonsense.



P F Tinmore said:


> have attempted to use of force against the *territorial integrity* and political independence of the State of Israel​
> You always crack me up with that lie.
> 
> You can go from Rafah to Jericho to Beirut without crossing an Israeli border. Where is this so called Israel that you are talking about?


*(COMMENT)*

There are consequences to that argument.


The IDF would not be a foreign army.  So there would be no occupation.
The Arab-Israeli conflict would become a Civil War between two factions within the same turf.
There would be no State of Palestine.  The West Bank and Gaza Strip would be just regional names.
There would be no point to an ICC Inquiry, because it would be a totally domestic matter.

There are a bunch of little things that would change.  But how do you define an international border.  And What then, is the basis for the ICJ Ruling on the Wall, since there is no border.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> You can play that game pretending that there is no Israel, but that is just nonsense.
> 
> ...


I just asked a simple question and you are ducking.

About the ICJ, my guess is that they don't know.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ...The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.


They also have the right to die,when they are stupid enough to confront Israel.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore, et al,

Actually, You cannot go through Gaza, unless you take the HAMAS tunnel or go through the Route 4 Border Checkpoint.  It's huge, you can't miss it.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

A border is delineated by by an ability to control it.  Once a nation/state is recognized, that recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.  Even the UN cannot take it back.  The recognition of a state may be "express" or "tacit."  The tacit recognition is any act which implies the intention of recognizing the state.  As for the Security Barrier, it doesn't matter where it is placed, it would all be inside Palestine and a domestic dispute.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 13, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Actually, You cannot go through Gaza, unless you take the HAMAS tunnel or go through the Route 4 Border Checkpoint.  It's huge, you can't miss it.
> 
> ...


International borders can only be defined by treaty.

Recognition, even by the UN, is a political move that has nothing to do with the law. The UN cannot legitimize or delegitimize states.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Where did you get that.  Teach me something.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty,  But that is not the only way.

The UN cannot make a state.  But when the UN votes to admit a state, that is a "tacit" recognition.  For instance, the border between Israel and Jordan is inclusive of the West Bank, by treaty.  Yet, Israel has recognized the West Bank as independent.  Thus, there again you see the recognition kicking in. 

But I'm not kidding.  where did you get the notion that an international border had to be by treaty.  If that is true, then the Secretary-General of the UN is in trouble.  The northern boundary is an Armistice Line.  That wound mean there is no South Korea.  Of course we know that is not true.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Slyhunter (Jul 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...


The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 13, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



The Christians and Muslims of Palestine have had to defend themselves since the European Zionists  began their colonization of Palestine.


----------



## Slyhunter (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


So. Nothing you said disputes what I said. Thus I repeat.

The Palestinians wouldn't need to defend themselves if they didn't attack.

Firing rockets randomly into civilian areas in Israel is not defending themselves.
Wearing suicide vests and blowing up school busses is not defending themselves.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 13, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



Of course they need to defend themselves from Israeli aggression.


----------



## Slyhunter (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Firing rockets into neighborhoods not directly attacking you is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.
Blowing up tea shops and school busses is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.

If they were actually attacking military targets I'd say go at em. But they purposely ignore military targets to target civilians and kids. And that is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 13, 2015)

The Palestinians  were attacking military targets.  Just as the Israelis claim to have been attacking military targets in Gaza.  Only, the Israelis killed a thousand or more Christian and Muslim women and children in their misses.  The Palestinians were more careful and killed hardly no Jewish civilians.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


You're having difficulty paying attention so let's see if a history lesson will lend an assist.

Israel, by it's historic political position of "land for peace" has demonstrated a willingness to promote accommodation. Do a bit of research and you will discover Israel's previous agreement returning all of Sinai to Egypt, unilaterally withdrawing from southern Lebanon and Gaza and negotiating to give back nearly all the West Bank. As we know, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza achieved nothing but to allow the Islamist terrorists of Hamas to gain weapons and ammunition with the willing assistance of the "Palestinian" beggars and squatters. The Egyptian government has learned that Egypt shares common threats from "Palestinian" Arab terrorists. The Egyptians have also learned that they can cooperate and find mutually beneficial relationships with Israel.

As usual, the "Palestinian" welfare fraudsters are their own worst enemy.


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 13, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Where did you get that.  Teach me something.
> 
> ...



And that is the end of that discussion. Once Tinny's silliness is countered, it's "exit, stage left."


----------



## SAYIT (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians  were attacking military targets...



  You are always good for a laugh, Princess. Thank you.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians  were attacking military targets.  Just as the Israelis claim to have been attacking military targets in Gaza.  Only, the Israelis killed a thousand or more Christian and Muslim women and children in their misses.  The Palestinians were more careful and killed hardly no Jewish civilians.


What military targets were being attacked with barrages of Islamo-rockets fired indiscriminately from civilian areas in the Islamic terrorist enclave of Gaza'istan?


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 13, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Chips, very english


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


> Firing rockets into neighborhoods not directly attacking you is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.
> Blowing up tea shops and school busses is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.
> 
> If they were actually attacking military targets I'd say go at em. But they purposely ignore military targets to target civilians and kids. And that is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.


They cannot target anything.  Homemade rockets do not have guidance systems.

BTW, the occupation had been going on for 37 years, before the first rocket went up.  If you don't want rockets, end the occupation.  Because the rockets are in response to that.

The rockets are not the problem.  The occupation is the problem.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> So do Israelis have the same right to defend themselves, from the rocket attacks, terror tunnels, and suicide bombings.  When a genocidal Islamic terrorist regime who's aim is to destroy the entire Jewish state is in charge of Gaza, then Isrsel has every right to make sure these animals don't get their hands on the weapons to commit mass murder.


An occupational force cannot claim self defense.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> There are no troops in Gaza, dipshit.


They don't have to be, for an occupation to exist.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza's northern border, Egypt the South.  That's what happens when you let an area be ruled by terrorist savages.


Israel also controls the seaports and airspace.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> They repeat the same bullshit over and over. They literally have nothing but pissing in the wind.


How many times have you subjected this forum to your Mufti vomits?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Yours and Billy Bo Bobs, obviously. These silly Flotilla Escapades™ are propaganda stunts. They get minimal attention and even less credibility for that very reason. The islamist various islamic terrorist groups that promote these absurdities seek only to further fleece the international community for kafir dollars.


What a coincidence!  You're something that rhymes with "stunt".

End the occupation and the flotillas will stop.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



You have to excuse MonkeyNazi, he's a programmed robot that just keeps repeating the same IslamoNazi talking points, regardless of the discussion or what the topic of the thread is.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians  were attacking military targets.  Just as the Israelis claim to have been attacking military targets in Gaza.  Only, the Israelis killed a thousand or more Christian and Muslim women and children in their misses.  The Palestinians were more careful and killed hardly no Jewish civilians.


Shooting rockets at Israeli cities and targeting schools and buses filled with kids isn't an act of self defense.  It's average behavior Islamic savages engage in on a daily basis.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza's northern border, Egypt the South.  That's what happens when you let an area be ruled by terrorist savages.
> ...


Ya don't say?!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> 1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.
> 
> 2. Dual Use goods and items: liable to be used, side by side with their civilian purposes, for the development, production, installation or enhancement of military capabilities and terrorist capacities. This list comprises:
> 
> ...


You continue to find whole new levels of stupid!

From your link:


> _*The Participating States of the Wassenaar Arrangement are:*
> Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom and United States_.


Don't see Israel anywhere in there?


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > They repeat the same bullshit over and over. They literally have nothing but pissing in the wind.
> ...



Only when you assholes bring up Nazism.

Hitler s Mufti Catholic Answers
*
HITLER’S MUFTI *by David G. Dalin
August 2005
Hitler s Mufti by David G. Dalin Articles First Things


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Ya don't say?!


That's why there's still an occupation going on.


----------



## Slyhunter (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ya don't say?!
> ...


Israel is the land of the Jews it is not an occupation. Give it up and allow them to live there in peace.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Only when you assholes bring up Nazism.
> 
> Hitler s Mufti Catholic Answers
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/books/review/Segev-t.html?_r=0


You spew out your Mufti vomits every time the wind blows.

In fact, you do it so much, one wonders if you're punishing the forum for not kow-towing to your racist psycho-babble.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


> Israel is the land of the Jews it is not an occupation. Give it up and allow them to live there in peace.


The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Jewish land.  It will never be Jewish land. 

The world would not allow Hitler to keep Poland and it won't allow Israel to keep the occupied territories.


----------



## Slyhunter (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is the land of the Jews it is not an occupation. Give it up and allow them to live there in peace.
> ...


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


>


What happened 2000 years ago, don't mean jack shit today.

It carry's no legal weight, whatsoever.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Why do they need to?


Normally, when someone defends themselves from a foreign force, weapons are the tools you usually do it with.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 13, 2015)

Hollie said:


> It hasn't gone unnoticed that the Islamic terrorist apologists are silent when it comes to Egypt protecting its citizens by controlling its border area with the Pali' terrorists.
> 
> This is all about insensate Jooooooo hatreds from the usual haters.


If you couldn't play the j-card, you wouldn't have anything to say.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ya don't say?!
> ...


Occupation by Muslim invaders who cannot coexist with anyone and are always starting up trouble, you must mean.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Why do they need to?
> ...


How about we let them duke it out and whoever wins gets to keep the land?  Oooops, already happened in 48, 67, 73, etc.  Even though it's been decades after the Arabs attacked Israel and got their butts kicked, they still want a redo.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Why do they need to?
> ...


Right.  So Israelis have a right to use whatever means at their disposal to defend themselves as well.  So stop whining about it then.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 13, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Only when you assholes bring up Nazism.
> ...


Stop complaining.  Like I said, let's not forget that Palestinians are the bastard children of the marriage of Nazism with Islamic Arab Nationalism.  The next time you use the word "Nazi", remember who the real Nazis of the world are today.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Where did you get that.  Teach me something.
> 
> ...


While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​
I don't know what other way there is.

Borders and land are intrinsically linked. Borders merely define the presence of land. In reality the issue of borders is an issue of land.

The UN states that the Palestinians have the inalienable right to territorial integrity. I presume this to mean that nobody can arbitrarily lay claim to any land inside Palestine's international borders.

There are other items of interest in relation to land. It is illegal to acquire territory by force, and it is illegal to annex occupied land.

The only way for Israel to acquire any Palestinian land is by treaty with the Palestinians.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...







 That with my $12 would enable us to buy all of gaza and take full control. Will contact hamas ASAP with the details and see what they say


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...







 I suppose we could open up a re-fried beans stall in gaza and turn it into a national dish, would be plenty of wind and gas to power two renewable power sources.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...





ForeverYoung436 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...







 I wonder if we could somehow make them taste like bacon, we manage it with turkey , then the carnivores will still be getting their meat hit.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...







 Then show where they have done so just once, why do you constantly ignore this question. What are they defending from when they fire illegal weapons at Israeli schools, when they murder 3 boys in cold blood on their way home.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...







 You forget about armistice lines and LoN mandated borders of the Jewish national home that you need to cross, these act as borders for control purposes and entry into Israel


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...







 Just who signed for these Palestinian international borders then, when was the treaty drawn up and who signed for Palestine, Egypt, Jordan and Israel.   Don't forget until 1988 Palestine as a nation did not exist in the eyes of the UN or world powers.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...







 No he replied with well thought out and structured questions asked at a level commensurate with your intelligence, seems you are dumber that we originally thought.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...








 So which treaty delineated the international borders of the nation of Palestine ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 LIAR as they where attacking and killing the Jews before Zionism was invented, right back to the Romans


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






There would not be any Israeli aggression if the Palestinians did not fire rockets at Israel. You can go right back to 630 C.E. to see who started the violence


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The Palestinians  were attacking military targets.  Just as the Israelis claim to have been attacking military targets in Gaza.  Only, the Israelis killed a thousand or more Christian and Muslim women and children in their misses.  The Palestinians were more careful and killed hardly no Jewish civilians.







 So what military targets have the Palestinians targeted when they fire at children in school buses ?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Yours and Billy Bo Bobs, obviously. These silly Flotilla Escapades™ are propaganda stunts. They get minimal attention and even less credibility for that very reason. The islamist various islamic terrorist groups that promote these absurdities seek only to further fleece the international community for kafir dollars.
> ...


It's not at all a coincidence that you're slow. 

There's no occupation. 

End Islamic terrorism and the world will be a better place. But, as we know,    the Arab beggars and squatters (so-called "Palestinian" Arabs), adhere to a fascist politico-religious ideology that is the invention of a desert Arab warlord.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ya don't say?!
> ...


There is no occupation..... other than the land grab via squatting being done by a motley collection of Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, etc., Arab fascists.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Firing rockets into neighborhoods not directly attacking you is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.
> ...


Your profound ignorance is the problem.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There are no troops in Gaza, dipshit.
> ...


The only occupation is the land grab by Arab squatters.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Firing rockets into neighborhoods not directly attacking you is not defending yourself from anyones aggression.
> ...







This is why they are classed as an illegal weapon and a war crime everytime they are fired at Israel.


 BTW then agrressiom has been going on since 630 C.E. when mo'mad wiped out the Jewish tribe at medina when they refused to worship him as god. This led to the explicit commands in the Koran  to "KILL THE UNBELIVERS" and the more explicit commands in the hadiths to "KILL THE JEWS"

 So the occupation is not the problem, and never was. It is the whole Islamic religion and its commands


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So do Israelis have the same right to defend themselves, from the rocket attacks, terror tunnels, and suicide bombings.  When a genocidal Islamic terrorist regime who's aim is to destroy the entire Jewish state is in charge of Gaza, then Isrsel has every right to make sure these animals don't get their hands on the weapons to commit mass murder.
> ...






 As we have shown and proven gaza is not occupied so the Israeli's can claim self defence and pound the Palestinians into dust


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There are no troops in Gaza, dipshit.
> ...






 According to the Geneva conventions which are now international law the land must be under full military control. This means troops troops must be in evidence.

 Once again your Nazi Jew hatred clouds your ability to reason this out


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza's northern border, Egypt the South.  That's what happens when you let an area be ruled by terrorist savages.
> ...






Yes as part of the legal blockade placed under International law.

 This does not mean that gaza is occupied


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Yours and Billy Bo Bobs, obviously. These silly Flotilla Escapades™ are propaganda stunts. They get minimal attention and even less credibility for that very reason. The islamist various islamic terrorist groups that promote these absurdities seek only to further fleece the international community for kafir dollars.
> ...







 End the violence, terrorism, acts of war and murders of children and the occupation and blockade will stop. Until this happens then the blockade and occupation will be in place.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.
> ...






 Does not need to be for it to be an International treaty dealing with blockades of nations.   I don't see hamas as signatory of Human Rights yet they claim it every day


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ya don't say?!
> ...





Then where are the Israeli troops inside gaza for it


Billo_Really said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is the land of the Jews it is not an occupation. Give it up and allow them to live there in peace.
> ...







 WRONG as international law of 1923 says. This land was given to the Jews by its sovereign owners as the Jewish national home, After giving the arab muslims 99.9% of the land as their national home. The world would have to repeal international law and take all the land away from the arab muslims at the same time as they tried to take this land from the Jews.

 Once again you are allowing your Jew hatred to cloud your thoughts and twist your reasoning


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...







 But the LoN mandate for Palestine does when it delineates the borders of the National home of the Jews. Strange isn't it that you rabid Jew haters always ignore International law that is in the Jews/Israel's favour.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Why do they need to?
> ...






 Then show one instance of hamas defending itself from Israel attacks that where not instigated by hamas illegal rockets fired at Israeli children ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Why do they need to?
> ...








 So when has hamas defended against a foreign force then ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > It hasn't gone unnoticed that the Islamic terrorist apologists are silent when it comes to Egypt protecting its citizens by controlling its border area with the Pali' terrorists.
> ...







And if you managed to fulfil your dreams of wiping out all the Jews you would have no reason left to live


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Out of date, ha ha ha.
> 
> Hamas Egypt ties hit new low - Al-Monitor the Pulse of the Middle East


January 2014...Yup, out of date.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Out of date.
> 
> Doesn't get better than this, Egypt now executing Hamas members.  Ok so we'll take the terrorist label off, but we'll still you as terrorists.   Ha ha ha.
> 
> ...


Yup. they're not dead yet.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Out of date, ha ha ha.
> ...



Anyone who's been following the situation knows that Egypt, under Sisi, and Hamas are not exactly friends now either.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


They don't have to be friends. Sisi does what Saudi Arabia tells him to do, and King Salman is having second thoughts about Hamas; he's more scared of IS.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



Palestine's international borders have changed since 100 years ago.  But, according to your own definitions, if the Palestinians were to sign a treaty with the Israelis, would you accept that?  Or would you still fight to the last Palestinian from your armchair?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







And what are they resisting when they target children  ?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

You are confused.  When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."

*Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?*
Ans *Acquisition of Territorial Sovereignty*
International law generally recognizes five modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty by a state, they are:

1 Occupation
2 Annexation
3 Accretion
4 Cession
5 Prescription​
Or!  Stated another way:



			
				Acquisition of Sovereignty said:
			
		

> A number of methods of *acquisition of sovereignty* are or have been recognized by international law as lawful methods by which a state may acquire sovereignty over territory.
> 
> 1 Accretion
> 2 Cession
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > While it is true that ONE way to define a border is through treaty, But that is not the only way.​
> ...


*(REMEMBERING)*

A law only means something if it is realistically enforceable.  Since the 1945 UN Charter was written, there have been a number of expansions that either used force, or coercion; or a combination of the two.  Just to name a few of the anomalies:

Russia and the Annexation of the Crimea (2014)
The UN peace process (1991) stalled --- as of mid-2012, the UN is holding direct negotiations between Morocco and the Polisario, Independence Movement by guerrillas of the Polisario Front opened an insurgency.
Indonesia and the Annexation of Western New Guinea (1969)
Israel and the Annexation of the Golan Heights (1967)
India and the Annexation of Goa (1961)
Abyssinia and the Annexation of British Ogaden (1954)
China and the Annexation of Tibet (1951)
Jordan and the Annexation of the West Bank (1950)
The proscription against the acquisition of territory through the use of force is relatively new as international concepts go.  The institution idea of legality derived from the UN Charter [Chapter I, Article 2(4)], which was later restated by the Security Council in Resolution 242 (1967) by stating that:  "_Emphasizing_ the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"...  That raised the bar a bit, because the Charter stated:

From the Preamble:  "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and"
Chapter I Article 2(4):  "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
*(COMMENT)*

Technically, a "Treaty" is just but ONE process in the procession of gaining territorial sovereignty by "*Cession*."

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


How courageous of you to promote Islamic terrorism in furtherance of your Joooooooo hatreds.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger,  et al,

This is a really good observation by "Challenger."



Challenger said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

None of the Arab/Muslim countries in the region of the original mandates territories, and Saudi Arabia, want to see DAESH _(AKA:  Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, AKA Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, AKA: Islamic State of Iraq and ash-Sham, AKA: Islamic State)_ want to be in the position of allowing DAESH to be on both sides of them _(a two front scenario)_. 

The Western and Regional (Arab League) Counterintelligence and Counter-Terrorist Activities are watching the development of DAESH in the Gaza Strip.  If the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) were to faultier, and DAESH were to get a foothold in the Gaza Strip, that would put several countries in an unacceptable position.  In particular, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; but Saudi Arabia and Egypt would be aggravated as well.


*Daesh warns Hamas*
BEIRUT: Daesh terrorists have threatened to turn the Gaza Strip into another of their Middle East fiefdoms, accusing Hamas, the organization that rules the Palestinian territory, of being insufficiently stringent about religious enforcement.
“We will uproot the state of the Jews (Israel) and you and Fatah, and all of the secularists are nothing and you will be overrun by our creeping multitudes,” said a masked Daesh member in the message addressed to the “tyrants of Hamas,” Reuters said. 
*SOURCE: * Arab News Originally Published by Reuters — Thursday 2 July 2015 /// --- Printed by AN Tuesday, 14 July 2015 | 27 Ramadan 1436 AH

*Raed Salah slams Daesh’s threats to topple Hamas in Gaza*
*‘Daesh is harmful to Islam,’ Palestinian resistance icon tells Anadolu Agency*
Attacks by the Daesh militant group in the Gaza Strip could lead to chaos in the region, Raed Salah, the leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel, has said.
Speaking to Anadolu Agency in Istanbul on Wednesday, Salah – a longstanding icon of the Palestinian resistance – voiced concern about possible Daesh attacks in the Hamas-run coastal enclave.
“No one can predict what would happen if Daesh became active in the Gaza Strip,” Salah said.
_*SOURCE:*_ Anadolu Agency  08 July 2015 16:45 (Last updated 08 July 2015 16:47)​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 14, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> You are confused.  When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."
> 
> ...



Israel annexed the Golan in 1981.  I was there at the time.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
That's the LARGER part of the problem. Without organization and consensus -- all these actions that you think are so valiant -- are nothing but futile street theater. Street theater that ends in massive setbacks to the cause almost every time they are exercised. There needs to be more value on Pali quality of life TODAY and less on blaming others for their plight..

Fireworks rockets and floatytillas are not resistance. They are a demonstration that the Palis value perceptions over actual progress for their lives.. They think nothing of trading buildings, hospitals, infrastructure and lives for "publicity stunts"..


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Out of date.
> ...



But they're locked up in a cage with a death sentence hanging over their heads. Ha ha ha.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Israel and Sisi are on the same page.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 14, 2015)

Hollie, Challenger, et al,

In this discussion, "Hollie" --- in that sarcastic way, is correct.



Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Some "International Humanitarian Concepts" are contradictory to "International Humanitarian Law."

There are several General Assembly Resolutions that use this peculiar language concerning struggle.  The five most commonly cited by the Hostile Arab Palestinian are these:

A/RES/2649 30 November 1970
_ Affirms _the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognized as being entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal;

A/RES/33/24 29 November 1978
_Reaffirms_ the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, particularly armed struggle;

A/RES/35/35  14 November 1980
_Reaffirms_ the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;

A/RES/36/9 28 October 1981
_Reaffirms_ the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;

A/RES/37/43  3 December 1982
Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;​
The common thread that these five resolutions have in common, that the passage that they believe givens them the right to assault Israel is derivative of the first 1970 resolution; AND, they are concerning "self-determination" as it relates to the "granting of independence to colonial countries."  It is what makes the argument about the Jewish Immigrants being colonial settlers from Europe so important to the pro-Palestinians.

The way that the pro-Palestinians _(including the Jihadist and Terrorists)_ use these passages is as "justification" for for the continues "armed struggle by any means" and the authorization to violate Customary International Humanitarian Law and the conventions of the International Humanitarian Law _(primarily the 1907 Hague Convention, and the Fourth Geneva Convention)_.   The Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) logic is that, not so dissimilar than that advocated by "Challenger."  _(__Posting #681__ --- "Yes it is. If those are the only means of resistance to oppression open to them.)_  According to Khaled Meshal, Political Bureau Chief - HAMAS, the Resistance Movement is attempting to liberate Palestine, in the sense that it is the entirety of the territory to which the former Mandate applied [_(Less Jordan) "The unity of the Palestinian land: The West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip and the occupied land of 1948"_]; unlike the PLO, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not recognize Israel and its right to exist.  The Resistance Movement believes that Israel has no legitimacy and no right to to Jerusalem at all.  The HoAP Islamic Resistance consider that any attempt by the Jews to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense.   And this has not change since the pre-Independence HoAP of 1948 set this theme and initiated the solemn oath:  "The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child."

So, there are two parallel arguments.  The first being that they are the indigenous population from more than a half-century ago, fighting against colonial settlement and for independence.  The second being the Jewish Immigration and exercising the right of self-determination was an act of aggression on the part of the Jewish People.  In this regard, the outcome of the Israeli War of Independence had no impact and will never have an impact for the purpose of settlement.  The Islamic Resistance Movement carries-on the legacy struggle left by the Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army that fought the Israelis in 1948-1949.

That HoAP have come to believe that they have every right to use any methodology, and tactic, and any strategy to achieve their end:  "fighting the Zionist Jews occupiers, the aggressors, and we will fight anyone who tries to attack us or usurp our rights or occupy our land."

*Nothing in all this gives the HoAP the right to violate any aspect of Customary IHL, or IHL Proper.  Thus the HoAP cannot really use this "all available means" as a license to use Jihadist coercion, or terrorist activities.*

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 14, 2015)

ForeverYoung436

I stand corrected.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> Israel annexed the Golan in 1981.  I was there at the time.


*(APOLOGY)*

You are correct.

Humbly,
R


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



Can't hate something that doesn't exist, what's a "Joooooooooo" anyway, never heard of it.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 14, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


So what, you're still out of date.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Hollie, Challenger, et al,
> 
> In this discussion, "Hollie" --- in that sarcastic way, is correct.
> 
> ...


So, there are two parallel arguments. The first being that they are the indigenous population from more than a half-century ago, fighting against colonial settlement and for independence.​
Indeed, and everything I have seen so far shows that they are correct.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


The "PA" in Ramallah is an illegal government set up and supported by the US and Israel. As long as that exist the political landscape in Palestine is going to suck. Of course that is the purpose of it.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


I haven't seen a change in Palestine's international borders. Could you provide a link?

Any treaty with Israel would have to be ratified by the Palestinian People including the refugees.

I don't see anything coming down the pike that would pass muster.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Bzzzzz wrong, that's current.  They're still in a rat cage, still have a death sentence hanging over their heads, which can be processed at will.  That's how you deal with Islamist animals, there is only one language they respond to, and Arab leaders understand this better than anyone else.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Borders?  Palestine has borders?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> You are confused.  When looking at sovereignty, you must examine it in both "theory" and how it is actually "practiced."
> 
> ...


Indeed, there are two methods to acquire land: one by treaty and the other by fource.

*Prescription*
, in international law, is sovereignty transfer of a territory by the open encroachment by the new sovereign upon the territory for a prolonged period of time, acting as the sovereign, *without protest or other contest by the original sovereign.*​

And we see a lot of that from the Palestinians so that acquisition is illegitimate.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



That's so out of touch with reality -- you just have to deal with it yourself..  There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.
Neither the tyranny in Gaza or the remains of the PA in Ramallah is sufficient to move the Palestinian cause forward. It's only slightly worse than OUR two party situation here in the US where 48% of the electorate is perpetually pissed when they lose elections. At LEAST our Congress meets -- even if they do very little.. And we still have diplomats even they suck greatly. And we don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


You reinforce a host of negative stereotypes with the "I blame the Jooooooos and the Great Satan", for " Palestinian" Arab incompetence and ineptitude.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


I don't. History does.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


The various squatters who Yassir _Got Money_ Arafat labeled as "Palestinians" are in no way *original sovereign*.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


There is a FRACTURED govt to fix.

And that is not going to happen as long as the regional superpower and the world superpower continue to pound on a defenseless civilian population.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 14, 2015)

Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
Don't blame Israel for dysfunction, division and lack of focus of the Palianists..
Until they agree on some better values than those in the Hamas Charter and "platform" -- nothing is gonna get better than it was in 2005...


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I can agree. History shows a pattern of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of the thieves and welfare cheats who call themselves "Palestinians".

It's become little more than a label for a bottomless pit of fraud, waste and a free pass for Islamic terrorism.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Indeed, Arafat was the appointed, money sucking, oligarch in Palestine. So is Abbas. He is rich too.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Man -- you're never happy with what the Palis do --- are ya? What do they have to do make YOU happy? 
Remember that definition of "co-dependency I gave you? You have that disease badly.. Group therapy works sometimes.  Maybe they should draft Hillary Clinton and her hubby..


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 14, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> ForeverYoung436
> 
> I stand corrected.
> 
> ...



No problem.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
> Don't blame Israel for dysfunction, division and lack of focus of the Palianists..
> Until they agree on some better values than those in the Hamas Charter and "platform" -- nothing is gonna get better than it was in 2005...


There is a strong and growing Palestinian leadership. Most of them, however, do not live in Palestine.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
> ...



Are you one of them? Why DONT they live in Palestine? Is this like the early Zionist leadership that directed THAT nationalistic movement from abroad? Cynthia McKinney is available. She's a Palestinian advocate. Draft her. Please....


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Typical for the welfare cheats who are the "Palestinians"

Gaza and Palestinian Leadership The More It Changes the More it Gets Worse Richard Z. Chesnoff

Repeat after me:

"I blame the Jooooooooos"

"I blame the Great Satan"

"Where's my welfare check"


----------



## Hollie (Jul 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Tinmore may consider placing a call to Suha "_brother can you steal a few more million dollars for me_" Arafat.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 14, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Oh, for heavens sake.  And I even numbered them for you.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

First, the Arab-Palestinians were NOT protecting or contesting sovereignty as an "original sovereign."  They have not held any form of sovereignty for more than a eight centuries.  So you would be incorrect there.  The "original sovereign in this case would have been the Ottoman Empire, that surrendered unconditionally to the Allied Powers.  The Allied Powers assumed control through the process of "Cession."  Nowhere in the transfer were the Palestine people ever addressed.  Nowhere in the Armistice of Mudros, the Treaty of Sevres, or the Treaty of Lausanne, mention the inhabitance of the territory that was defined by the Allied Powers.  Neither were the inhabitance mentions in terms of sovereignty or territorial compensation.

Second, "When a particular territory is not under the authority of any other state, a state can establish its sovereignty over such territory by occupation. The territory may never have belonged to any state, or it may have been abandoned by the previous sovereign. The PCIJ ( permanent court of international justice) held that the occupation to be effective must consist of the following two elements:

(i) intention to occupy. Such intention must be formally expressed and it must be permanent.
(ii) occupation should be peaceful, continuous.​
Now this is kind of interesting.  This is the order of events.

APR 1950:  The West Bank is Annexed by Jordan.
JUN 1967:  Israel occupies the West Bank; and it becomes Israel occupied territory of Jordan.
JUL 1988:  King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank.  The sovereignty abandons the West Bank, and Israel now Effectively Occupies the Politically Abandon Territory.
NOV 1988:  PLO Declares Independence of West Bank and Gaza Strip, with Capital in Jerusalem.​It will become interesting to see when the ICC (International Criminal Court) defines the critical point, that becomes the time in which the understanding of the conditions are set.  Would that be the Treaty dates with Egypt (1979) for the Gaza Strip; and the Treaty dates with Jordan (1994) pertaining to the West Bank.  Or would it be the end of the 1973 Yom Kipper War, --- or --- when?  

And would there be an argument that today's Palestine Arab is capable of effectively understanding and articulating the agreements and interpretations of 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 years ago?  Once the Provisional Government of Israel declared Independence and then had to defend that action against the Arab Coalition Army, was that a defining moment?

We simply don't know.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Jul 14, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heavens sake.  And I even numbered them for you.
> 
> ...



Rocco, Rocco, you are not making any sense.  Let's break this down with facts.

The Treaty of Sevres was never adopted because the Ottoman Empire disappeared and the Turkish Republic under the leadership of Ataturk was able to evict the Allied occupation forces defeat the Ottoman loyalists  and defeated the invading Greeks in the west and the invading Armenians on the east who believed they would be able to divide Anatolian Turkey among themselves.  It is called the War of Turkish Independence. Just as a note, had the Treaty of Sevres been adopted, Turkey would not be in Europe today, as all the Turkish land in Europe today would have been taken from the Ottomans.  

Turkey ceded lands outside of the defined territory of Turkey via the Treaty of Lausanne adopted after the Covenant of the League of Nations was signed.

Hence, the only legal instrument that granted Britain control of Palestine was the Mandate and the Mandate did not imply sovereignty for Britain, but a holding in trust for the inhabitants, i.e. the Palestinians.  

So your claim that the Palestinians were not "mentioned" is false.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 14, 2015)

montelatici, et al,

About the only part of that you got correct is that Ataturk and the Turkish Government was the successor.



montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


*(REFERENCE)*

I would recommend you listen to the UN International Law lecture by Prof Malcolm Shaw, Professor of International Law, University of Leicester.  You will notice that even though the Treaty is no longer applicable, it is a precedence on the intent of the border issues and delineation, in cases of ambiguity and for clarity. He makes this plain.  The Treaty of Sevres clearly stakes-out the final territory of Turkey; it would not have disappeared _(that is pure supposition on someone's part)_.  

Remember, the same Powers that wrote the Treaty of Sevres with the Ottoman Empire, also wrote the *Treaty of Lausanne* with Turkey.



			
				In the Treaty of Lausanne said:
			
		

> Article 3 points out Syria. AND Article 16 is the renunciation:
> 
> ARTICLE I6.
> 
> ...



*(COMMENT)*

The idea that Turkey did not transfer all rights and title to territories situated outside the frontiers of Turkey, to the Allied Powers (and appropriate Associate Powers) is simply ridiculous.  In fact, the Treaty of Lausanne is much less restrictive over the concerned territory than the Treaty of Sevres.  Although the *Mudros Armistice* with the Ottoman Empire was "unconditional" -- much more draconian.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Jul 14, 2015)

^^^^

There goes MonkeyNazi mutilating documents and making up shit, only to be publicly humiliated once again.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 14, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici, et al,
> 
> About the only part of that you got correct is that Ataturk and the Turkish Government was the successor.
> 
> ...



I got it all right Rocco.  You can deflect all you want, but I have forgotten more than you will ever learn.  Trust me.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 15, 2015)

^^^^^
Actually Rocco is a truly unbiased, informed and educated poster who simply posts facts.  Which is why the MonkeyNazi resorted to insulting Rocco, just for posting the truth.


----------



## toastman (Jul 15, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici, et al,
> ...



Hahahaha you are too funny Monti. Great counter argument ! 

Why do you always boast that you are smarter than everyone ? You are quite possible one of the dumbest most uneducated posters here. You're the only poster who always makes claims that he is more intelligent then other posters. Yet when Rocco dismantles your propaganda, this is your response ?

You are a pathetic lying propagandist who cannot handle the truth. Go and get a high school diploma before you come back here and post.


----------



## toastman (Jul 15, 2015)

Roudy said:


> ^^^^^
> Actually Rocco is a truly unbiased, informed and educated poster who simply posts facts.  Which is why the MonkeyNazi resorted to insulting Rocco, just for posting the truth.



Yup, that's Monti. He cannot handle the truth. It kills him when people refute his garbage propaganda, so he resorts to insulting someone like Rocco who clearly knows more than he does. 
Well, a brain dead pigeon is more educated than Monti is. 

He is truly a pathetic loser.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie, Challenger, et al,
> ...







 And prior to that half century they where in other Islamic nations as beggars and thieves. And nothing at all shows they where ever correct


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...








 Nothing stopping the Palestinians from calling for an election to have their own people as their leaders is there.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Which internationalborders can you provide a link to them other than the Mandate of Palestine borders you try and pass as nation of Palestine borders ?

 Why when they elect representatives to do this for them


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...







 So what land that was deemed nation of Palestine has Israel gained by treaty or force. Bearing in mind that Palestine did not exist as a nation until 1988 and has not defined its borders by mutual agreement as promised last year in the UN


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







History is not the one posting "I blame the joooos and the great satan for Palestinian incompetence" is it.   

 BUT YOU DO ALL THE TIME


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 That defenceless that they import Iranian weapons and fire illegal rockets at Israel and Egypt on a regular basis. There is the problem the Palestinians are just Iranian invaders by proxy that whine and whinge when Israel responds to the terrorism and ponds them into another cease fire. Time to let Israel finish the job and have the Palestinians beg for a ceasefire.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 And what about hamas that creams of the top, bottom and middle. Just look at the goods going in to gaza  every day and how little is actually handed out to the inhabitants. Hamas has the lorries unloaded into warehouses where they pick over the goods, any that can be used for weapons or to assist the terrorists are taken and never get to the people. All the building materials sent have been stolen by hamas to build tunnels with so they can target more Israeli children. Medical Supplies are taken and sold to provide money for weapons. So why haven't you mentioned the even more corruption present in hamas ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a unified Palestinian Nation PF? Are they farther from that concept then they were in 2005?
> ...







 Well they wont being  Egyptian, Iranian, Jordanian, Pakistani and Saudi. And this is the problem with Palestine the self appointed leaders are not from Palestine and so have no kinship with the inhabitants. This all started when the arab league decided to become the Palestinian leaders in 1947, and promptly fragmented into 3 different camps. Is it any wonder that Palestine was split in two after 1949 with Egypt taking a small part and Jordan taking the rest


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 Wrong again freddy boy as it was embodied in the Treaty of Lausanne making it valid, This included handing sovereignty of Ottoman lands to the LoN ( not Britain ) under the treaty of Lausanne.

 STOP RE-WRITTING HISTORY TO SUIT YOUR ISLAMOCATHOLIC NAZI PROPAGANDA


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > ^^^^^
> ...







 Be careful people or he will put you on ignore so he cant see when you destroy his arguments and show him up as the complete and utter moron he really is.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 15, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



So when offering 5 and 10 year truces to the Zionists so they could "reconstruct their own political representation and process" was refused by the Zionists, when the the results of freest, most heavily monitored elections were disregarded by the U.S. and Zionist Israel in favour of a "more favourable" losing faction, what do you expect the Palestinian people to do? They have organisation and consensus, a viable working government infrastructure, as good as any in the West. Surround New York with razor wire fences and watchtowers, control everything and everyone that moves in or out, then when New Yorkers take a few pot shots over the fence use the USAF to carpet bomb Long Island; then repeat the process for 10 years and see how long the organisation, consensus and a viable working government infrastructure survives.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 15, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Your Congress meets because there are no checkpoints in Washington DC,  Congressmen don't have to worry about being killed by drone strikes  or smart bombs. And Americans don't generally try to kill the losing party so that no more elections are required, true. In Palestine that's what the Zionist Israelis do, kill the winners so their lapdogs remain in power. That's the reality of Occupied Palestine.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 15, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ...That's the reality of Occupied Palestine.


Sounds like those last remaining Arab squatters on Israeli land would be better off packing up and moving someplace more safe for them.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...








 A little bit disingenuous with the truth as the terms of the 5 year truce where mostly hamas keeping the right to end the truce at a time they thought they would be strong enough to destroy Israel.  

 Still waiting for the evidence of your claims from a non partisan source, and you either ignore the requests or give partisan sources

Are you blind or just completely brainwashed the Palestinians only had a viable working government when Egypt and Jordan controlled them, and even then they attacked their leadership. It is not pot shots either it is all out war with illegal weapons to provoke an armed response so the Palestinians can play the martyr card


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







No checkpoints in Beirut, Cairo or the other nations where the P.A. members live. And if they can meet in Gaza then they can meet anywhere else

 I think you will find that hamas and fatah did most of the killings, and still do

 Once again you use Zionist out of context and in a racially motivated manner


----------



## Roudy (Jul 15, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



No checkpoints in Gaza, dufus.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 15, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > ...That's the reality of Occupied Palestine.
> ...


I'm sure that would make the Zionist colonisers very happy; the native people being marched off onto "reservations" or becoming a new Diaspora. Problem is, it's not Israeli land and never has been, it's not even exclusively Jewish land and never has been; and the only squatters there are the European Zionist colonists and settlers.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 15, 2015)

Roudy said:


> ^^^^^
> Actually Rocco is a truly unbiased, informed and educated poster who simply posts facts.  Which is why the MonkeyNazi resorted to insulting Rocco, just for posting the truth.



Our UN legal encyclopedia 
He is a wealth of legal facts and references


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 15, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit.. Palestinians have MUCH work to do reconstructing their own political representation and process.
> ...



I have no idea what 5 or 10 yr truce you refer to.. But you're in total denial if you think the Palis have had any form of functional unified representation for the past 9 yrs or so.. No elections, no functioning central govt, no authority for diplomacy.. What kind of election ends in NO MORE ELECTIONS ? Or a purge of the losing party and one party control of Gaza? There are consequences to the choices the Palis made. And if you READ the Hamas Charter and the "platform" they ran on ---- YOU and your couch Palis here -- just need to ACCEPT those choices and realize the Palis don't value diplomacy, or functioning govt or infrastructure or commerce over symbolic resistance and perpetual setbacks in their sorry state of living.. That's not gonna end well.. Because lack of organization and planning and governance for the past 100 years is the sole reason for their situation today.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 15, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



A terrorist related organization, OPENLY advocating the demise of Israel -- is kind of a non-starter for negotiations or normalization of relations.. And MANY of the Hamas legislators had RECENT reasons to be detained or prosecuted. It's one of those "consequences" of the Pali decisions that you cheerleaders just won't seem to accept. They don't CARE about making things better. They don't CARE about building a prosperous and safe Palestine. 

Given the same result in a JORDANIAN administered West Bank  -- they would have done the same. Or WORSE. 

Ask Egypt. After all, those are really the previous "titled" holders to land that COULD be Palestine.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 15, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



actually hamas has set up checkpoints inside gaza to find and control IS

Tensions increase between Hamas Salafists - Al-Monitor the Pulse of the Middle East


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...







 Apart from those run by hamas, and they shoot fatah members on sight


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 15, 2015)

*Moderation Note:*

*Thread is getting a bit contentious. And wandering off the specific topic of sanctions and blockades and protests*
*against them and the reasons for and against. Not time to close yet.. But when the topic is used up -- the poking and personal abuse tends to go up rapidly.. *

*Before you post -- Ask yourself if the CONTENT moves the topic forward in a useful way. Please flame responsibly... *


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...







 So International law in Israel's favour does not exist now, is that what you are saying. And I see you still use Zionist out of context and in a racist manner.

 LoN mandate of Palestine clearly delineates the borders of the proposed national home of the Jews as the 22% of Palestine left after the Saudi prince was paid off with his 78% of Palestine. This entered into international law and became inviolate, so the UN should be enforcing this law through the ICC/ICJ and armed task forces


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 15, 2015)

Have we figured out yet that the omnipotent Turkish Navy was as useless as a screen door in a submarine, in protecting the so-called Humanitarian Flotilla?

Perhaps the Palestinian Navy will lend a hand next time - 8 rowboats, 17 fishing trawlers, 18 motorized rubber rafts, and a hi-speed racer - a mighty force, indeed.

( _oh yeah... and those 5 kayaks they stole from Dick's Sporting Goods in BumPhukk, NewJersey, too_ )


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...






 It was a proposal made by hamas for a one sided truce on their terms that stated that hamas could end the truce at any time with no warning given. They admitted this was so they could re-arm and re-equip the next generation of terrorists. They would be allowed to goad Israel into taking action that would also make the truce null and void. Of course the Israeli government refused to sign any such deal


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Have we figured out yet that the omnipotent Turkish Navy was as useless as a screen door in a submarine, in protecting the so-called Humanitarian Flotilla?
> 
> Perhaps the Palestinian Navy will lend a hand next time - 8 rowboats, 17 fishing trawlers, 18 motorized rubber rafts, and a hi-speed racer - a mighty force, indeed.
> 
> ( _oh yeah... and those 5 kayaks they stole from Dick's Sporting Goods in BumPhukk, NewJersey, too_ )






Don't most deckhands for submarines come from turkey ? That could be why they had no boats in the area as the caotain ordered his deckhands to make sure the decks where clean so they opened the doors.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 15, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...




Was this during the last Gaza incursion? During a time of open hostility? Or was this a serious strategic type of "truce" because Hamas was serious about governing.?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 15, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...







 It was around about the time of operation Cast Lead, and hamas admitted that it was so they could train the next generation and build up their weapons arsenal.

 Some links to the proposal

What are Israel s reasons for turning down Hamas s offer for a 10 year truce - Quora

Report Hamas discussing 5-year truce - Israel News Ynetnews

Defiant Gaza militants vow to rearm amid shaky truce - Business Insider


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 15, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


This is a ten year old offer.

A truce is referred to in Arabic as a “hudna.” Typically covering 10 years, a hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences. The Koran finds great merit in such efforts at promoting understanding among different people. Whereas war dehumanizes the enemy and makes it easier to kill, a hudna affords the opportunity to humanize one’s opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/opinion/01yousef.html?_r=0


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Yeah... That's comical.. Combine that with the Hamas Charter and the Hamas 2005 "Platform" and these quotes from the guy's boss.. 

_*We promise you that we will not cede a single part of Palestine, we will not cede Jerusalem, we will continue to fight and we will not lay down our arms.
Ismail Haniyeh

Read more at Ismail Haniyeh Quotes- BrainyQuote

We repeat today that we are with the establishment of a Palestinian state on any liberated part of Palestinian land that is agreed upon by the Palestinian people, without recognizing Israel or conceding any inch of historical Palestine.
Ismail Haniyeh

Read more at Ismail Haniyeh Quotes- BrainyQuote

The Palestinian people do not beg the world for a state, and the state can't be created through decisions and initiatives. States liberate their land first and then the political body can be established.
Ismail Haniyeh

Read more at Ismail Haniyeh Quotes- BrainyQuote
*_
You make Hudna with Diplomats and representatives of the people. Not guys like this... 
Why don't you post that 2005 platform for Hamas AGAIN P.F.??? Just to remind yourself what a difference one year apparently makes in the "mood" of Hamas...


----------



## Hollie (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...




For a _hudna_ is not a "truce" in the Western sense of that word.  As Dr. Denis MacEoin, writing in the _Middle East Quarterly_ has observed, thereare more thanseven other Arabic words for truce or cease-fire in Arabic. A better understanding of the full cultural baggage attached to _hudna_ is necessary in order to grasp what Marzouk has really said:

A _hudna_ is always temporary, and not for a duration of more than ten years. As a concept, it does not carry within it the potential to develop into a full peace. Rather, it is arrived at during times of Muslim weakness, when it is perceived as desirable to seek a respite from open hostilities. 

Historically _hudna_ is associated with the Truce of al-Hudaybiyya in the seventh century.  Muhammad and his followers had abandoned Mecca to non-Muslims because they did not have sufficient strength to hold it.  At Hudaybiyya, a truce was negotiated that was to permit the Muslims to return unarmed to Mecca annually for the next ten years for purposes of religious pilgrimage. Two years later, however, using an infraction of the agreement as a pretext, Muhammad and his followers, who then had sufficient strength, moved in and took Mecca; its residents, believing they had a truce with Muhammad, were unprepared to do battle.

This is the model:  When weak, strike a temporary truce, utilize the time to regroup and garner additional strength, and then move in. 

Once this is understood, then a _hudna_ with Hamas must be viewed as tactically a negative for Israeli defense.  When there is no_ hudna_ in force, Israel is able to act for security purposes, hitting a rocket launching site there, a tunnel from which arms are smuggled there. 



Read more: Blog Really Missing the Point on Hudna


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 15, 2015)

Nevermind.. I'll post it for you.. 






Hamas - 2006 Electoral Campaign Platform - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

1. Islam is our Reference.

2. Palestine is Arab and Muslim Land.

3. Palestinians are one nation regardless of location.

4. The Palestinian People are still in the process of National Liberation and have the right to use all means including armed struggle to achieve this goal.
5. The right of return to all Palestinians.

6. Adherence to the inalienable rights of the people.

7. Protect and cement National Unity as a priority.

8. The issue of prisoners and detainees tops the agenda ; on the internal policy level the C&R aims at achieving a great number of objectives - among them: Maintaining Palestinian fixed National Aims; Palestinian presence in Jerusalem; political freedom; dialogue as a means to solving internal differences; freedom of expression; assembling movement.

9. The platform of the C&R prohibits: Political detention; shedding Palestinian blood; protection of civil society; directing the security apparatus to safeguarding the security of the citizens.

Among other things the Platform calls for protecting the "Resistance" and enhancing its role to resist Occupation and achieve Liberation.


WEEELLLL .. So much for Palestinian unity or prohibiting "political detention, shedding Palestinian blood, or protection of civil society"    =======  THAT -- was 2005. And in 2006, some assistant to the Prime Minister calls for peace and negotiations?????? 

I thought OUR foreign policy was schizophrenic.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 15, 2015)

I'm here to learn stuff and here's what I just learned about Haniyeh....

Ismail Haniya Fast Facts - CNN.com


*May 2, 2011 - Condemns the assassination of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, referring to him as a Muslim holy warrior and the victim of American oppression.

October 23, 2012 - Meets with the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, the first official head of state to visit since Egypt and Israel instituted a blockade in 2007.

April 4, 2013 - Haniya is appointed deputy head of Hamas, and Khaled Meshaal is re-elected chief.
*
There's your Hamas leadership P.F...  Hudna or not Hudna? Condemning the USA for the assassination of bin Laden.. A GREAT Muslim holy warrior...

*Did that cease-fire offer appear ANYWHERE other than the NYTimes Op Ed page?? *


----------



## Hollie (Jul 15, 2015)

The Avalon Project Hamas Covenant 1988

Hamas Covenant 1988
*The Covenant*
*of the*
*Islamic Resistance Movement*
*18 August 1988*

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


*Article Eleven:*
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 15, 2015)

Hollie said:


> The Avalon Project Hamas Covenant 1988
> 
> Hamas Covenant 1988
> *The Covenant*
> ...



monte and Tinmore keep on saying that Christians are so integral to the Palestinians.  Yet, in all their charters, I have only seen the words "Arab" and "Muslim".


----------



## montelatici (Jul 15, 2015)

Christian Palestinians do not support Hamas they support the PLO.  The Palestinian National Charter is what Christian Palestinians adhere to.  The only mention of religion is in Article 6.

"*Article 6:*
The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians."

The Avalon Project The Palestinian National Charter

35% of the Palestinians within Palestine and the Diaspora are Christians.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 15, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> I'm here to learn stuff and here's what I just learned about Haniyeh....
> 
> Ismail Haniya Fast Facts - CNN.com
> 
> ...


Israel will make excuses against peace until they steal the rest of the land.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 15, 2015)

Hollie said:


> The only occupation is the land grab by Arab squatters.


Over 100 UN resolutions and every country on the planet, say's you're full of shit, you little dishrag whore.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 15, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > The Avalon Project Hamas Covenant 1988
> ...


That's to be expected. Two things to bear in mind when considering islamic ideology and the substance and mechanics of revulsion for the infidel which are: 1.) an integral, doctrinal element of Islamism, prescribed by mohammud (swish) in the koran and delineated in the sunnah of Mo'. (swish) in the hadith, to establish the supremacy of Mo's particular brand of fascism, and 2.) islamic doctrine has never been reformed and made compatible with the modern age through an enlightenment movement in the Moslem world. Islam has never taught equality as it relates to Moslems and the reviled kafir. Islam clearly demarcates between those two entities. 

At no time in islamist history have Moslems equated non-Moslems as equals. In fact, Islamism has the dhimmi status, unknown in true religions.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 15, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I'm here to learn stuff and here's what I just learned about Haniyeh....
> ...


Israel has stolen no land. In fact, Israel has a demonstrated history of giving up land for peace.

Don't you feel like a fool for not knowing facts?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 15, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > The only occupation is the land grab by Arab squatters.
> ...


Oh my, Loinboy. Aren't you the angry little short man. Consider writing a strongly worded email to the UN.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...








 But only between two muslim parties, isn't that right. Between a muslim and non muslim the rules are very different


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Christian Palestinians do not support Hamas they support the PLO.  The Palestinian National Charter is what Christian Palestinians adhere to.  The only mention of religion is in Article 6.
> 
> "*Article 6:*
> The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians."
> ...








 First Saturday, then Sunday........................


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I'm here to learn stuff and here's what I just learned about Haniyeh....
> ...









What excuses have they made to date  then, detail them from a reliable non partisan source


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > The only occupation is the land grab by Arab squatters.
> ...








 And every one brokered by a pro Islamic nation that is anti Jew and has Nazi roots


----------



## theliq (Jul 16, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Fact is there is still no resolution but there should have been


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








So detail the excuses made by Israel to halt the peace talks, it is that simple.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 16, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Nevermind.. I'll post it for you..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why did you omit these aspects of the platform?

"A number of measures, based on Islam are to be implemented. A new elections law is to be passed so as to ensure justice and fair representation of our people. *All citizens are equal before the Law; arbitrary arrest is taboo. Dialogue should be encouraged and the respect of the other; point of view guaranteed for all; unions are to be independent and domination is unacceptable; political powers are recognized and their role is to be used for the sake of establishing of civil institutions; equal opportunities for all and the principle of the right man for the right job will be applied.*

Out of our conviction of the vitality of building a well-rounded Palestinian individual, the C&R attaches great importance to education which will keep abreast of modern innovations. Islam of course will be the core of the Palestinian education philosophy - reforms are to be introduced to the current education system, the C&R details its policy in this regard in 17 items proposed to rehabilitate the system. C&R lists five measures to raise the efficiency of the clergy and regulate and care for mosques and emphasize their educational role.

The Palestinian family, as the nucleus of the Palestinian society, figures high in the C&R platform; 16 items detail the proposed suggestions that will strengthen the family and its role. Palestinian family Laws are to be derived from and conform to the Shari'ah law as far as the society is concerned; reconciliation committees should be activated in order to discharge their role as trouble-shooters. 

Culture and media play a vital role in shaping the mentality and thought of citizens, and building up of the nation's personality. *Freedom of thinking, expression and fairness and safeguarding the youth from external corruptible influence are chief among the C&R concerns.* Official media should work for enhancing the people's steadfastness and resistance. 

*Women's rights will be guaranteed so that they can contribute to the building of society, socially, economically and politically. Women's organizations should be encouraged. The C&R enumerates the actions that they should take to raise the status of women. Youth care is among the aims to be achieved by the C&R - talents among the young are to be tapped and encouraged. *

Public land should be taken care of so that they can be fully utilized to build villages and public housing to be distributed fairly and equally among those in need. Heath Care system is to be reformed and made available to all people, especially the needy. Health care centers will be built to serve all sections of the people wherever they live. 

*Public health and hygiene will also be taken care of. The environment is to be protected. Agriculture and animal husbandry will be encouraged. Small farms will get credits in order to effectively make use of the land. The use of insecticides should be regulated for full benefits.* 

On the economic level, the economy and monetary system should be independent from the Zionist entity and its economic and monetary system. The C&R will mint Palestinian currency; self-sufficiency is an ultimate objective to be worked for through a number of measures. International economic agreements will be reconsidered and revised so as to serve the interests of the Palestinian people, chief among them:

*The Paris Economic agreement. 

*The Free Trade Agreement with the USA. 

*Partnership Agreement with the EU. 

*The Economic Agreement with Egypt and Jordan. 

*The Economic and trade relations with the Arab and Islamic world should be developed. The Palestinian economy should be helped to disengage itself from the dependency on Israeli economy. Income tax laws must be reconsidered and reformed. Labor and unions and occupational societies will be encouraged and developed; minimum wage limit should be established to guarantee a decent standard of living for all, wages and salaries should be linked to the index.*

Roads must be updated and modernized; movement among cities and villages should be emphasized and smooth; opening of free crossings between Palestinian territory and Jordan and Egypt. Any foreign interference is rejected; the port and the airport are to be reopened."

Sounds like nation building to me.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 16, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

I DO NOT think you meant to say this; or meant something other then what you said. 

In terms of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), the religion and cultural objectives of Islam is fundamental to the organizational core objectives.  "The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion."

It has only been, in the last decade or so, has Islam _(as a religion)_ come not to be used as a fundamental guide for the Jihad of HAMAS.

This is not to say that HAMAS has an "Islamic warrior ethic" or actually follows the teaching of Islam.
_“*To whoever, male or female, does good deeds and has faith, *
*We shall give a good life and reward them according to the best of their actions.” *_(16:97)​


montelatici said:


> Christian Palestinians do not support Hamas they support the PLO.  The Palestinian National Charter is what Christian Palestinians adhere to.  *The only mention of religion is in Article 6.*
> 
> "*Article 6:*
> The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians."
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I Think religion is mentioned often in the Islamic Resistance Movement Covenant:

*Article One:*
The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam.
*Article Two:*
It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.
*Article Five:*
Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution. Its extent in place is anywhere that there are Moslems who embrace Islam as their way of life everywhere in the globe.
*Article Six:*
It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.
In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.
*Article Nine:*
The Islamic Resistance Movement found itself at a time when Islam has disappeared from life.  Thus, when Islam is absent from the arena, everything changes. From this state of affairs the incentives are drawn.
As for the objectives: They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu'azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper.
*Article Seventeen:*
They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. 
The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.
*Article Twenty-Two:*
These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.
*Article Twenty-Eight:*
They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam.
*Article Thirty-Six:*
The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion. Whoever takes Islam as his way of life, be it an organization, a grouping, a country or any other body, the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself as their soldiers and nothing more.
[/lndent]

Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## Challenger (Jul 16, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


HAMAS has diplomats and are the legitimately elected government of Palestine, until the next elections, unlike Abbas whose term has long expired and who carries no legitimacy whatsoever and the Fatah faction who lost the last election. The British government ended up talking to the Provisional IRA and now we have peace. Churchill said "Jaw-jaw is better than war-war." Even the US State Department opened diplomatic links with Hamas when they were elected; that is until the Zionist Israel lobby and the Zionist Israeli governments blew their collective fuses and forced the US to declare HAMAS a terrorist organisation. Hamas wanted peace from the outset, Israel refused. after the 1948 war President Husni al-Za'im offered Ben-Gurion  peace, full diplomatic recognition of the state of Zionist Israel and to absorb most of the Palestinian refugees in Syria as full citizens and to resettle them in the North of the country away from Israel's border, in exchange for a small parcel  of some disputed land along the Syrian Israeli border which he could sell to his people as a "victory". Ben Gurion never bothered to reply and the Zionists have been refusing to negotiate in good faith ever since. The Zionists need war, need constant conflict in order to expand their state..."from the Euphrates to the sea."


----------



## Hollie (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Nevermind.. I'll post it for you..
> ...



Sounds like building an Islamic terrorist network of criminals, social misfits and welfare cheats.

http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/583425

Senior Hamas leaders and their associates have grown rich smuggling arms and other material into the Gaza Strip, while the majority of the 1.8 million Palestinians living there subsist on incomes among the poorest in the Arab world.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 16, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I'm here to learn stuff and here's what I just learned about Haniyeh....
> ...



What does Israel have to do with the Hamas leader of Gaza PRAISING Osama Bin Laden and calling him a "victim of American aggression? How can you possibly skip right over that to blaming Israel for "iffy" ceasefire proposals? 
You are buried in denial...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



WHEN did the US open "diplomatic relations" with the Hamas leadership of Gaza? 
And what does any of this have to do with events in 1947? Where is this proposal to setttle in Syria? And who the fuck is President Husni al Za'im and when was he elected President of Palestine?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 16, 2015)

Keep Calm and Seek the Truth Challenger.. Turns out your Husni al Za'im was a left-over Ottoman military officer that led a bloodless coupe of Syria. Shortly thereafter --- he was deposed and executed. That's the problem with making deals with so-called Palestinian leadership. They tend to lead dangerous and short lives for the most part.

That agreement would have worth maybe a falafel sandwich without the drink... This guy was "president" for literally 7 months before his neck was stretched out. And more than likely was CIA backed.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



No, they are not the elected government by a flux (4-30% depending on district of popular vote), fatah had the majority votes, they have elected representatives in parliament.  They illegally took control of gaza.  They don't represent the WB in their political or militarily ambitions.  There has not been an election since 2006, because hamas will not permit one to take place.

Hamas does not represent the palestinians, it controls gaza by force.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Nevermind.. I'll post it for you..
> ...







 And immediately  breached by hamas themselves. So that is why they are not in the link given to the hamas manifesto, ever thought that they might not be in the one linked to ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Nevermind.. I'll post it for you..
> ...







 And immediately  breached by hamas themselves. So that is why they are not in the link given to the hamas manifesto, ever thought that they might not be in the one linked to ? 

They have had 7 years to implement this and not one of the highlighted articles has so much as been talked about


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 16, 2015)

flacaltenn, Challenger,  et al,

Yes, it is nothing to get excited over.



flacaltenn said:


> Keep Calm and Seek the Truth Challenger.. Turns out your Husni al Za'im was a left-over Ottoman military officer that led a bloodless coupe of Syria. Shortly thereafter --- he was deposed and executed. That's the problem with making deals with so-called Palestinian leadership. They tend to lead dangerous and short lives for the most part.
> 
> That agreement would have worth maybe a falafel sandwich without the drink... This guy was "president" for literally 7 months before his neck was stretched out. And more than likely was CIA backed.


*(COMMENT)*

You would be amazed at just how many Prominent Palestinians had served Ottoman Army were behind post-War insurrections and hostile activities.  Even Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, (name sake for the HAMAS military Wing and the Rocket of the same name), the founder in 1930 of the Palestinian BlackHand had service in the Ottoman Army as an Officer and Chaplain.

And most of these former Ottoman Army retreads associated with the regional Mandates became failures in the transition from Senior Military Officers to Senior Political Leaders.  Husni al-Za'im, a former Ottoman Army Officer, former French Army Officer, and formerly the Chief of Staff Syrian Army, only lasted seven months as President of the Republic.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 16, 2015)

Phoenall, Challenger, et al,

I don't think HAMAS was ever really interested in "nation building."



Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like nation building to me.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, I agree.  I tend to think of HAMAS and the Gaza Strip as a failed leadership and government. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Nevermind.. I'll post it for you..
> ...







 And immediately  breached by hamas themselves. So that is why they are not in the link given to the hamas manifesto, ever thought that they might not be in the one linked to ? 

They have had 7 years to implement this and not one of the highlighted articles has so much as been talked about


----------



## Challenger (Jul 16, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



However you try to spin it, under the agreed electoral process then in place Hamas won 74 seats against Fatah's 45 on a 76% voter turnout. The election was considered free and fair by international monitors and observers. Hamas got an average 42% of the vote against Fatah's 38%, the remaining 20% going to minor factions and independents. Fatah lost, they knew it and Zionist Israel couldn't stand it, neither could the West so they got Fatah to stage a coup which failed in Gaza but succeeded in the West Bank with Zionist Israeli support. Hamas was ready to stand for elections recently, but surprise, surprise, Abbas deferred them yet again.

Seems western style democracy only counts if it elects governments the West approves of.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 16, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Keep Calm and Seek the Truth Challenger.. Turns out your Husni al Za'im was a left-over Ottoman military officer that led a bloodless coupe of Syria. Shortly thereafter --- he was deposed and executed. That's the problem with making deals with so-called Palestinian leadership. They tend to lead dangerous and short lives for the most part.
> 
> That agreement would have worth maybe a falafel sandwich without the drink... This guy was "president" for literally 7 months before his neck was stretched out. And more than likely was CIA backed.



I'm calm, always have been. Husni-al-Za'im was the President of Syria when he made the offer. The success of his coup was dependant on making a just peace with the Zionist state, when his attempt failed, his days were numbered, just like Sadat when he made peace after the 1973 war. Didn't make the offer any less genuine. Ben Gurion hung him out to dry. The Zionists have never wanted peace and don't want it now. "Greater Israel" is the goal, from the Euphrates to the sea.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 16, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Phoenall, Challenger, et al,
> 
> I don't think HAMAS was ever really interested in "nation building."
> 
> ...



Think what you like, we'll never know because they were never given the chance to try; their leadership "failed" because it was systematically assassinated by Zionist Israel.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Hamas should never have been allowed to run in the first place.  It is a murderous organization.  The Republican and Democratic parties in America aren't murderous.  Can you imagine if the KKK would be allowed to run for elections?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall, Challenger, et al,
> ...



They had the chance to do nation-building in Gaza, but they didn't.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 16, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




Agreed -- a link would be spiffy.. We need MORE of this. Because the chuckles and guffaws are better than what's on the Comedy Channel right now. 

My favorites are 

--- Arbitrary arrest is taboo.. 

And 

--- Freedom of thinking, expression and fairness and *safeguarding the youth from external corruptible influence *are chief among the C&R concerns.

Stop it -- you're killing me...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 16, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Keep Calm and Seek the Truth Challenger.. Turns out your Husni al Za'im was a left-over Ottoman military officer that led a bloodless coupe of Syria. Shortly thereafter --- he was deposed and executed. That's the problem with making deals with so-called Palestinian leadership. They tend to lead dangerous and short lives for the most part.
> ...



So your position is --- It's ISRAEL's fault that this guy only lasted 7 months???        
That you would believe his seizure of power was ruined by only by his failure to cuddle up to
"the Zionist Entity".. This is entertaining.. For sure..

Ben Gurion could have been as reality challenged as our John Fraud Kerry and STILL realized that this guy was a "dead man walking" and NOT an opportunity for peace.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 16, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Hamas' agriculture minister, Muhammad al-Agha, has issued a ten-year plan designed to side-step the blockade by increasing local food production and agricultural self-sufficiency in Gaza.

Entitled _The Plan for 2020_, the document was vetted by 150 academics and researchers, according to the agriculture ministry, and looks to respond to the challenges imposed by Israel's blockade with local initiatives.

For example, Israel's ban on fertilisers has pushed Hamas to explore processing sewage, which has been pumped, often untreated, into the sea off Gaza since the failure of treatment facilities that are short of banned parts and supplies.

"When Israel started preventing the agricultural requirements, we moved to organic agriculture to address our needs.

"What we have done is [implement] model projects for the transformation of agricultural or domestic waste into organic fertilisers which we use then in agriculture," said al-Agha, who is also a professor of environmental science at the Islamic University in Gaza.

Thus far, some 1,000 dunams of land has been fertilised in this manner under the pilot project, according to the ministry.

"What we have tried to do is change the culture of our people gradually to organic agriculture, organic food and organic production," said al-Agha.

Going organic The siege on Gaza - Al Jazeera English


----------



## Challenger (Jul 17, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



I don't think the BNP or UKIP or Sinn Feinn should be allowed to run in UK elections, so what?  The process allows  it and I accept the results, however grudgingly. The Tories won the last election here and though most of the country wanted someone else, no-one is organising a coup against them. If they guy has been fairly elected, that's who you deal with across the table.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 17, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it? Nobody knew then how long he'd last. My position is that "peace loving" Zionist Israel never made the effort. What could they have lost if the deal went south? They were at war with their neighbours already, so nothing lost there if it did. If, however, the deal held they'd have a stable northern border, a split amongst their enemies and no Palestinian refugee problem to worry about in the future. The prospect would be worth exploring to any politician who really desired to live in peace with his neighbours; unfortunately Ben Gurion and Zionist Israel had no intention of making peace, then or since.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 17, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


What chance?


----------



## Challenger (Jul 17, 2015)

Interesting; The Jewish Press Hague Judges Tell Prosecutor to Proceed with 2010 Gaza Flotilla War Crime Case


----------



## Challenger (Jul 17, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Erm...I sourced from the link you provided yourself, didn't you bother to read the whole article?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> I'm here to learn stuff and here's what I just learned about Haniyeh....
> 
> Ismail Haniya Fast Facts - CNN.com
> 
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Smuggling is bringing something into a country illegally.

What law are they violating?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Deflection.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 17, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Remembering that HAMAS is a recognized terrorist organization.  
Remembering that HAMAS provides safe haven and material support to other terrorist organizations like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
Remembering that HAMAS, as a government entity, exercises both the threat and use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of the State of Israel, as recognized by General Assembly Resolution *273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations* --- in a manner inconsistent with Chapter I, Article 2(4), United Nations.



P F Tinmore said:


> Smuggling is bringing something into a country illegally.
> 
> What law are they violating?


*(COMMENT)*

The basic law is in the form of a Treaty.

*ARMS TRADE TREATY*
*Article 6
Prohibitions*
Opened for signature in New York: 3 June 2013
Entry into force: 24 December 2014

1.  A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if the transfer would violate its obligations under measures adopted by the United Nations Security Council acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, in particular arms embargoes.

2.  A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if the transfer would violate its relevant international obligations under international agreements to which it is a Party, in particular those relating to the transfer of, or illicit trafficking in, conventional arms.

3.  A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if it has knowledge at the time of authorization that the arms or items would be used in the commission of genocide, crimes against humanity, grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, attacks directed against civilian objects or civilians protected as such, or other war crimes as defined by international agreements to which it is a Party.​
HAMAS, and the Palestinian State in general, has:  *S/RES/1373 (2001)*

FAILED TO refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts, including by suppressing recruitment of members of terrorist groups and eliminating the supply of weapons to terrorists;

FAILED TO  deny safe haven to those who finance, plan, support, or commit terrorist acts, or provide safe havens;​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Remembering that HAMAS is a recognized terrorist organization.
> Remembering that HAMAS provides safe haven and material support to other terrorist organizations like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
> ...


So, under domestic and international law the US cannot supply arms to Israel.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 17, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

WOW!  Where did that come from?



P F Tinmore said:


> So, under domestic and international law the US cannot supply arms to Israel.


*(COMMENT)*

You are just trying to bait me.

v/r
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> WOW!  Where did that come from?
> 
> ...


It is not where did that come from. It is where have you been?

People have been talking about that for years.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heavens sake.  And I even numbered them for you.
> 
> ...


First, the Arab-Palestinians were NOT protecting or contesting sovereignty as an "original sovereign." They have not held any form of sovereignty for more than a eight centuries. So you would be incorrect there.​
You are the one who is incorrect. The people are sovereign. A state is not required.

Being the native population and citizens of the defined territory of Palestine the Palestinians have certain inalienable rights.

An independent state is the product of the exercise of their rights not a prerequisite.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 17, 2015)

Challenger said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Lot of if's,  there Mouseman.. You could GUARANTEE there would be no Palestinian Zionist movement today if only this clown had made that deal.. ???  Grant you -- it's an interesting historical oddity.. But so was that coupe and this guy who left office in a casket...


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 17, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I have two responses. 



P F Tinmore said:


> It is not where did that come from. It is where have you been?
> 
> People have been talking about that for years.


*(COMMENT)*

The US is not violating any treaty or law _(international or domestic)_ in regards to providing military assistance to Israel.

In fact, there really is no serious discussion in Washington about the restricting aid to Israel.  In fact it is much the opposite.  In fact, my most recent copy of the *U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel --- Congressional Research Service  Report* (RL33222) dated June 10, 2015, does not even mention the concern.


*US ‘to boost’ military aid to Israel after Iran nuclear deal*

The US has offered to increase military aid to Israel by another $1.5 billion per year to ease tensions over the nuclear deal with Iran, media has reported. Defense Secretary Ash Carter is expected to make the offer …
RT · 15 minutes ago


*White House reportedly offers to boost military aid to Israel after Iran deal*

President Obama has offered to increase U.S. military aid to Israel in the wake of the Iran nuclear agreement, according to a published report. According to the New York Times, Obama broached the subject in a phone …
FOX News · 1 day ago


*US offers generous military aid package to Israel, yet Iran deal leaves ally uneasy*

By Julie Hirschfeld Davis & Matthew Rosenberg WASHINGTON: When President Barack Obama called Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday to discuss the nuclear deal with Iran, the US president offered the …
Economic Times · 1 day ago​
The purpose of the aid is to make sure that the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) has a significant Qualitative Military Edge (QME) over any coalition of opposing forces in the region that have demonstrated in the past the propensity to launch coordinated attacks against Israel.  The US is attempting to insure that the IDF becomes one of the most technologically sophisticated militaries in the world and a credible military force in the region.  That is the foreign policy objective in a nutshell.



P F Tinmore said:


> First, the Arab-Palestinians were NOT protecting or contesting sovereignty as an "original sovereign." They have not held any form of sovereignty for more than a eight centuries. So you would be incorrect there.​
> You are the one who is incorrect. The people are sovereign. A state is not required.
> 
> Being the native population and citizens of the defined territory of Palestine the Palestinians have certain inalienable rights.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

No, you have that wrong, almost completely wrong.

Sovereignty, in the political sense, that we talk about here, in the study and theory of law as applied politically, is the right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any external political-military force brought to bear on the self-determination.  It is the "Westphalian Sovereignty" that each nation state has sovereignty over its territory and domestic affairs, in which the model excludes the unwanted manipulation by foreign powers.


NOTE:  The idea that people are sovereign, or is much the different thing that comes in two flavors.  First:  *What Exactly is a Sovereign Individual? * That is phrase philosophically discussed by William Rees-Mogg and James Dale Davidson.  Secondly the phrase is sometimes used in the context that "*Sovereign citizen* is a legal term used to refer to a political movement which grew out of a belief in government abuses of power."​
Relative to 1995 discussion by the High Commissioner on Human Rights (E/CN.4/RES/1995/4 17 February 1995) , where the UNHCR ---  "Recalling General Assembly resolutions 181 A and B (II) of 29 November 1947 and 194 (III) of 11 December 1948, as well as all other resolutions which confirm and define the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, particularly their right to self-determination without external interference and to the establishment of their independent State on their national soil, especially Assembly resolutions ES-7/2 of 29 July 1980 and 37/86 E of 20 December 1982."  --- One has to understand that the "right" confers absolutely nothing to the Arab Palestinian except the opportunity to attempt to achieve self-determination.  You will notice that in the explanation, that A/RES/181 (II) is cited.  Yes the right to establish a independent state is not the guarantee that you will have a independent state.   In this case the Westphalian Sovereignty Model stipulates, no matter how powerful, they do not have the right to take upon the rule of a sovereign country.   However, the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine Applied was NOT sovereign or self-governing.  Does that prevent the inhabitance the right to try to exercise the right of self-determination?  NO!!!  But the rights of sovereignty, territorial integrity, and self-determination only mean something if the inhabitance:  Through the of self-determination establish a sovereignty over a specified territory.  Until 1988, the Arab Palestinian may have, in their eyes, attempted to do this; but it was not achieved until the PLO declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I have two responses.
> 
> ...


In fact, there really is no serious discussion in Washington about the restricting aid to Israel.  In fact it is much the opposite.  In fact, my most recent copy of the *U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel --- Congressional Research Service  Report* (RL33222) dated June 10, 2015, does not even mention the concern.​
Of course they have no concern. They don't think down that road because it would go against what they want. They have no concern for law so they don't bother to look.

Allow me to share one of my experiences.

I called the state department and asked them why they were negotiating with the illegal government in Palestine not the elected government. The guy said hold on let me get that. I sat on hold for 15-20 minutes. He finally comes back and says "Can I call you back? We can't find Palestine."

That speaks volumes. That is the intellectual level of the people in our government.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I have two responses.
> 
> ...


Sovereignty, in the political sense, that we talk about here, in the study and theory of law as applied politically, is the right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any external political-military force brought to bear on the self-determination. It is the "Westphalian Sovereignty" that each nation state has sovereignty over its territory and domestic affairs, in which the model excludes the unwanted manipulation by foreign powers.​
Popular sovereignty is the basis of international law.

*Popular sovereignty​*or the *sovereignty of the people* is the principle that the authority of the government is created and sustained by the consent of its people, through their elected representatives (Rule by the People), who are the source of all political power.

The central tenet is that legitimacy of rule or of law is based on the consent of the governed.

Popular sovereignty - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia​
External political-military force contrasts this principle because it is imposed on the people without their consent.

Israel was a foreign government imposed in Palestine by force without the consent of the people.


----------



## montelatici (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I have two responses.
> 
> ...



What prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state for the local inhabitants as happened with the other former Ottoman territories was the facilitation of the transfer of Europeans to the territory, or rather, the Mandatory did not adhere to the Covenant of the League of Nations Article 22 which states in part:

"....there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant...."

By allowing the transfer of large numbers of Europeans to Palestine contravened this and other articles of the Covenant with respect to 95% of the population of Palestine from the date of the signing of the Mandate.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 17, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Well, there are a couple things here that confuses me.



P F Tinmore said:


> In fact, there really is no serious discussion in Washington about the restricting aid to Israel.  In fact it is much the opposite.  In fact, my most recent copy of the *U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel --- Congressional Research Service  Report* (RL33222) dated June 10, 2015, does not even mention the concern.​
> Of course they have no concern. They don't think down that road because it would go against what they want. They have no concern for law so they don't bother to look.
> 
> Allow me to share one of my experiences.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

While I am not all that impressed with the KSA's of career Foreign Service Officers, by no stretch of the imagination are they so inept that they would not know that the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs (NEA) deals with American Foreign Policy and diplomatic relations with that general regional area _(including but not limited to:  Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestinian Territories, Saudi Arabia, and Syria)_.   

Since 10/8/1997, HAMAS has been a "designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs)."  

*Legal Ramifications of Designation*

It is unlawful for a person in the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to knowingly provide "material support or resources" to a designated FTO. (The term "material support or resources" is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(1) as " any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who maybe or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(2) provides that for these purposes “the term ‘training’ means instruction or teaching designed to impart a specific skill, as opposed to general knowledge.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(3) further provides that for these purposes the term ‘expert advice or assistance’ means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.’’
Representatives and members of a designated FTO, if they are aliens, are inadmissible to and, in certain circumstances, removable from the United States (see 8 U.S.C. §§ 1182 (a)(3)(B)(i)(IV)-(V), 1227 (a)(1)(A)).
Any U.S. financial institution that becomes aware that it has possession of or control over funds in which a designated FTO or its agent has an interest must retain possession of or control over the funds and report the funds to the Office of Foreign Assets Control of the U.S. Department of the Treasury.
Your question is:

√ "Why they were negotiating with the illegal government in Palestine not the elected government?"​
Under US Federal Law, it is extremely difficult to open diplomatic relations with a terrorist organization.  Whether or not that you recognize it, HAMAS is a designated FTO.  And, whether you want to recognize it, the General Assembly (A/RES/67/19  4 December 2012) gives recognition in a certain way.  Similarly, the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine, Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974, make an important observation.  

The Arab League decided that the --- "Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated."​
_the UN --- "Decides​_to accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people, in accordance with the relevant resolutions and practice."​
My only guess that I have as to why the Department of State could not answer your question is that you must have reach the Janitor.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Well, there are a couple things here that confuses me.
> 
> ...


Under US Federal Law, it is extremely difficult to open diplomatic relations with a terrorist organization.​
Indeed, they tie their own hands with their stupid political name calling crap.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 17, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

In your Posting which I responded to, you spoke of:  "The people are sovereign. A state is not required."  That is much different from "Popular Sovereignty."  I responded to your post and not something you just raised.



P F Tinmore said:


> Sovereignty, in the political sense, that we talk about here, in the study and theory of law as applied politically, is the right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any external political-military force brought to bear on the self-determination. It is the "Westphalian Sovereignty" that each nation state has sovereignty over its territory and domestic affairs, in which the model excludes the unwanted manipulation by foreign powers.​
> Popular sovereignty is the basis of international law.
> 
> *Popular sovereignty*
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Popular Sovereignty only make a difference if the government is representative of the people; there are several possible forms.

A country like Saudi Arabia is a Kingdom.  Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation as well.  But in that sovereignty, the "sovereign authority" does not rest with the people as in a representative government; but in the hands of the King.

Israel, emerged from a combination of factors.  Israel was not imposed by force, but through the process of self-determination as crafted through the "Step Preparatory to Independence" contained in GA/RES/181 (II).  External Force was exerted by the Arab League Coalition of several Armies simultaneously attacking which attempted to supplant the Jewish right of self-determination and undermine the recommendations of the General Assembly.  It was only after the declaration of independence, when Israel had to defend itself from the influence of external military force exerted by the Arab League.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 17, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Under US Federal Law, it is extremely difficult to open diplomatic relations with a terrorist organization.​
> Indeed, they tie their own hands with their stupid political name calling crap.


I consider the Likud Party a terrorist organization.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 17, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> No, they are not the elected government by a flux (4-30% depending on district of popular vote), fatah had the majority votes, they have elected representatives in parliament.  They illegally took control of gaza.  They don't represent the WB in their political or militarily ambitions.  There has not been an election since 2006, because hamas will not permit one to take place.
> 
> Hamas does not represent the palestinians, it controls gaza by force.


It doesn't matter how many times you tell that lie, it's not going to come true.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 17, 2015)

The bottom line is, Israel has no right  to stop a ship in international waters.  Any ship, for any reason.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 17, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> The bottom line is, Israel has no right  to stop a ship in international waters.  Any ship, for any reason.


It's so cute when you chest-heaving short boys pretend to be internet tough guys.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 17, 2015)

Hollie said:


> It's so cute when you chest-heaving short boys pretend to be internet tough guys.


I never thought quoting international law was macho, but hey, whatever hydrates your sugar walls...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 17, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> In your Posting which I responded to, you spoke of:  "The people are sovereign. A state is not required."  That is much different from "Popular Sovereignty."  I responded to your post and not something you just raised.
> 
> ...


Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

The people are sovereign even in non self governing territories.

The first ground of invalidity of the Mandate is that by endorsing the Balfour Declaration and accepting the concept of the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine it *violated the sovereignty of the people of Palestine *and their natural rights of independence and self-determination. - See more at: The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP DPR study part I 1917-1947 30 June 1978 ​
The Palestinians had the right to sovereignty since their separation from Turkish rule. They were a non self governing territory under trust of the Mandate.


----------



## toastman (Jul 17, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Under US Federal Law, it is extremely difficult to open diplomatic relations with a terrorist organization.​
> ...




Who cares what you consider? You have no credibility on this subject.


----------



## toastman (Jul 17, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> The bottom line is, Israel has no right  to stop a ship in international waters.  Any ship, for any reason.



Bottom line is, you can grasp at straws if you want, but the ship declared that they were going to break through the blockade.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 18, 2015)

toastman said:


> Bottom line is, you can grasp at straws if you want, but the ship declared that they were going to break through the blockade.


It doesn't matter what bullshit excuse you try to use, YOU CANNOT STOP A SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS! PERIOD!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 18, 2015)

toastman said:


> Who cares what you consider?


Apparently, you do, since you cared enough to comment on it.




toastman said:


> You have no credibility on this subject.


How the fuck would you know?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is, you can grasp at straws if you want, but the ship declared that they were going to break through the blockade.
> ...


There are lots of things you cannot do. 

YOU CANNOT COMMIT ACTS OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM. <-----note the use of caps for dramatic affect.

Yet, Islamic terrorism continues. 

Don't let let your stupidity and short stature get in the way of making yourself the village idiot.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 18, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Yes, --- Without regard for your interpretation of what the CEIRPP DPR Study says (remembering that it is only a study), history actually shows us that the Arab Palestinian did not actually have sovereignty in either 1922, 1948, or 1967.  It is even questionable if they had the "right to sovereignty," as the Westphalia Compact did not apply to situation such as the Mandate Territories.



P F Tinmore said:


> Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> The people are sovereign even in non self governing territories.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

While it is theoretically true that a people can have the "right to self-determination," which if successful --- could leaded to the conditions which would allow the "right of sovereignty," --- in the practical world ---- a non-self governing territory the people only have (if the situation permits) the potential for self-determination and sovereignty.

The CEIRPP DPR Study says:  "violated the sovereignty of the people of Palestine."  That assumes that the People of Palestine had self-government.  In order to have sovereignty, you first have-to have a land to be sovereign over.  In this case, in the Treaty of Lausanne [to which the Arab Palestinian (the People of Palestine) were not party] clearly stated:

ARTICLE I6

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.​Just as the Unconditional Surrender made through the Armistice of Mudros said:

ARTICLE 16

XVI.—Surrender of all garrisons in Hedjaz, Assir, Yemen, Syria, and Mesopotamia to the nearest Allied Commander; and the withdrawal of troops from Cicilia, except those necessary to maintain order, as will be determined under Clause V.​
As we've seen in the reality of history, looking back, the People of Palestine get nothing that the benevolent Allied Powers did not grant them.  In 1975, by its Resolution 3376 the UN General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People (CEIRPP), which was the author of the Study of the same name:  "The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem: 1917-1988," published afterwards --- attempts to attach late 20th Century concepts to a problem set that emerged 45 years before the concept of self-determination legally became effective.

4  During World War I, the President of the United States Wilson championed the principle of self-determination as it became crystallized in the Fourteen Points of Wilson (1918). Although this proposal formed the basis of the peace negotiations with the Central Powers, self-determination was subsequently far from fully realized in the Paris peace treaties. It was, however, reflected in a number of plebiscites held by the Allies in some disputed areas and it was one of the basic components of a series of treaties concluded under the auspices of the League of Nations for the protection of minorities (see also Minority Protection System between World War I and World War II). Finally, in Art. 22 Covenant of the League of Nations, the mandates system was devised as a compromise solution between the ideal of self-determination and the interests of the administrative powers. *However, self-determination as a general principle did not form part of the Covenant of the League of Nations and therefore was, for the duration of the League of Nations, a political rather than a legal concept.* This was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations and its expert advisors in theÅland Islands dispute of 1920–21 even though, in the particular circumstances of the case, autonomy rights were granted to the population concerned (Report of the International Committee of Jurists Entrusted by the Council of the League of Nations with the Task of Giving an Advisory Opinion upon the Legal Aspects of the Åland Islands Question 5).
*SOURCE:* Self-Determination, by Daniel Thürer, Thomas Burri, Encyclopedia Entries Article last updated December 2008, Max Planck Encyclopedia of Public International Law [MPEPIL]
THE PRINCIPLE OF SELF-DETERMINATION AND THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLES. 

Although the principle of self-determination of peoples plays an important part in modern political thought, especially since the Great War, it must be pointed out that there is no mention of it in the Covenant of the League of Nations. The recognition of this principle in a certain number of international treaties cannot be considered as sufficient to put it upon the same footing as a positive rule of the Law of Nations. *SOURCE:* League of Nations—Official Journal. October 1920 ​Since that time, the evolution of the principles to these right has transitioned from the abstract to the more concrete in the form of recognized as a right of all peoples in the first article common to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) which entered into force in 1976; provides:

Article 1 Paragraph 1:
All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.​
AGAIN:  You cannot _(as the International Committee of Jurists (ICJ) points out in the advisory opinion above) _apply the contemporary Covenant of 1976 to a 1922 problem or that of a 1948 problem.  "*However, self-determination as a general principle did not form part of the Covenant of the League of Nations and therefore was, for the duration of the League of Nations, a political rather than a legal concept."*

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Jul 18, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Yes, --- Without regard for your interpretation of what the CEIRPP DPR Study says (remembering that it is only a study), history actually shows us that the Arab Palestinian did not actually have sovereignty in either 1922, 1948, or 1967.  It is even questionable if they had the "right to sovereignty," as the Westphalia Compact did not apply to situation such as the Mandate Territories.
> 
> ...



Of course contemporary law is applied to past injustices. Your source was either writing before Nuremberg or are not very qualified jurists. 

"At the International Military Tribunal (IMT) in Nuremberg (1945–46), legal teams from Allied nations prosecuted Nazi German leaders for attacks on civilians under the rubric of crimes against humanity, *a formerly undefined general principle *that became codified into enforceable law for the very first time. "

Justice and Accountability United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

Not to mention the application of contemporary law to past actions that enabled the Native people to successfully secure judgements against Canada.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 18, 2015)

montelatici, et al,

You cannot prosecute someone deed done YESTERDAY that was lawful, or performing a process that was legal YESTERDAY, with a law created TODAY.  That would be an ex post facto application of the law.

And the IMT did not do that.  It lumped crimes that individually were illegal (like murder) and based on the magnitude of the crime (6 million Jews murdered) applied a new level of the crime (mass murder became a crime against humanity instead of 6 million counts of murder).  The IMT did this to several categories of crimes; especially the crime of depraved indifference; in which the conduct was so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, OR so blameworthy as to warrant criminal liability --- that the law imposes upon the accused the status of being the intentional causes of the crime.  BUT, the IMT did not create a new law for which the defendants were retroactively prosecuted.







montelatici said:


> Of course contemporary law is applied to past injustices. Your source was either writing before Nuremberg or are not very qualified jurists.
> 
> "At the International Military Tribunal (IMT) in Nuremberg (1945–46), legal teams from Allied nations prosecuted Nazi German leaders for attacks on civilians under the rubric of crimes against humanity, *a formerly undefined general principle *that became codified into enforceable law for the very first time. "
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The is no court that will change history by retroactively applying band new laws, which proscribe an action today, for an action completed decades ago.  In the case of the Tribunal, the Article 7 --- "Crimes Against Humanity" (CAH) is really a compilations of a set of crimes.



(a)  Murder;

(b)  Extermination;

(c)  Enslavement;

(d)  Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

(e)  Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;

(f)  Torture;

(g)  Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h)  Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

(i)  Enforced disappearance of persons;

(j)  The crime of apartheid;

(k)  Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

For example, this CAH is something different than normal murder; but derived from the basic criminal nature of murder.  

*Article 7 (1) (a) Crime against humanity of murder Elements:* 

1. The perpetrator killed one or more persons. 
2. The conduct was committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population. 
3. The perpetrator knew that the conduct was part of or intended the conduct to be part of a widespread or systematic attack against a civilian population​
“Attack directed against a civilian population” in these context elements is understood to mean a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in article 7, paragraph 1, of the Statute against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack. The acts need not constitute a military attack. It is understood that “policy to commit such attack” requires that the State or organization actively promote or encourage such an attack against a civilian population.

A policy which has a civilian population as the object of the attack would be implemented by State or organizational action. Such a policy may, in exceptional circumstances, be implemented by a deliberate failure to take action, which is consciously aimed at encouraging such attack. The existence of such a policy cannot be inferred solely from the absence of governmental or organizational action.​
The "Crime Against Humanity" is not a new crime.  It is a (relatively) new approach to the prosecutorial assembly of the charges.

BUT AGAIN, you cannot reach back in time and make some action illegal or improper that was, at that time otherwise entirely legal.  That would be like you going 50 MPH in a posted 50 MPH Zone, yesterday.  But then a write a ticket today, for speeding today because the Speed Limit was changed from 50 MPH to 25 MPH today.  Cannot be done.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 18, 2015)

Hollie said:


> There are lots of things you cannot do.
> 
> YOU CANNOT COMMIT ACTS OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM. <-----note the use of caps for dramatic affect.
> 
> ...


Earth to _*Hollie the Whore*_, two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > There are lots of things you cannot do.
> ...


Oh my, Loinboy. In spite of your inability to compose coherent sentences, don't let your short stature be such an impediment to your lewd, crude behavior.

The next Islamo-flotilla will be no more a publicity stunt than the last.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 18, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Oh my, Loinboy. In spite of your inability to compose coherent sentences, don't let your short stature be such an impediment to your lewd, crude behavior.
> 
> The next Islamo-flotilla will be no more a publicity stunt than the last.


Not if they send the right kind of ship...







...you stupid bitch.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my, Loinboy. In spite of your inability to compose coherent sentences, don't let your short stature be such an impediment to your lewd, crude behavior.
> ...


Such an angry, short boy.


----------



## toastman (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Who cares what you consider?
> ...



Because whatever I say goes ! You should know that by now !


----------



## toastman (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my, Loinboy. In spite of your inability to compose coherent sentences, don't let your short stature be such an impediment to your lewd, crude behavior.
> ...


----------



## toastman (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is, you can grasp at straws if you want, but the ship declared that they were going to break through the blockade.
> ...



You're the one coming up with a bullshit excuse. Why should Israel have waited to board the ship AFTER they broke the blockade? Makes no sense.

You Palestinians ass kissers always find the dumbest shit to whine about.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 18, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Such an angry, short boy.


I wouldn't talk, you don't set the bar that high, skank.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 18, 2015)

toastman said:


> You're the one coming up with a bullshit excuse. Why should Israel have waited to board the ship AFTER they broke the blockade? Makes no sense.
> 
> You Palestinians ass kissers always find the dumbest shit to whine about.


It's not a bullshit excuse, it's the law.

They have a word for stopping a ship in international waters...........

..........._*it's called "piracy"!*_


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 18, 2015)

toastman said:


>


Fuckin' Germans!


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

WOW, this is really something.  I have never seen someone as wrong as you are --- so often  as you are.



Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is, you can grasp at straws if you want, but the ship declared that they were going to break through the blockade.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The _San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts_  (AKA: The San Remo Manual) is actually the Customary International Humanitarian Law (IHL) doctrine that discusses at length the legality of a naval blockade.  The most dangerous Naval Blockade ever instituted was the 200nm blockade around Cuba in October 1962; to prevent the arrival of Soviet Nuclear Missiles.

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 10 December 1982 (UNCLOS) generally speaks to conditions around the "Right of Innocent Passage."  But it is not the authority on issues involving armed conflict on the high seas or international waters.  That is reserved for the San Remo Manual.  I've never done investigations for an Admiralty Court, but my associates have.  And from what I gather, it is really complex law.  The San Remo Manual stipulates five main conditions concerning the imposition of a legal naval blockade during the course of an armed conflict.

(1) must be declared and notified;
(2) must be effective, which is deemed a question of fact;
(3) must be applied impartially to all vessels;
(4) cannot prevent access to the ports and coasts of neutral states; and
(5) must comply with certain humanitarian law obligations.​
This criteria is found in:
*SECTION II* : METHODS OF WARFARE San Remo Manual:
*Blockade*

93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.

97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.

*98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.*

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.​​
The idea that "YOU CANNOT STOP A SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS! PERIOD!" is just plain nonsense.  The maintenance of the blockade is, as you can see by paragraph 98, _Force Majeure_.  In the establishment of a blockade, (and for the sake of clarity) there are a few prohibitions -- relative to a blockade -- that should be mentioned.

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.​103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.​104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.​
To my knowledge, since the 01/2009 Blockade Notice to Mariners, several authorities have reviewed the Israeli Blockade.  As we all know, the Israeli blockade is "effective" within the meaning of the San Remo Manual.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Jul 18, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my, Loinboy. In spite of your inability to compose coherent sentences, don't let your short stature be such an impediment to your lewd, crude behavior.
> ...



Is Bigmouth with the low IQ playing with his toy boats again?


----------



## toastman (Jul 18, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Damnit Roudy !  Why would you tell him that? all this time he thought his little toy boat was real, and now you ruined it !

This is like telling a kid that Santa Claus isn't actually real ...


----------



## toastman (Jul 18, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> WOW, this is really something.  I have never seen someone as wrong as you are --- so often  as you are.
> 
> ...




"I have never seen someone as wrong as you are --- so often  as you are."

Uhhh, have you forgotten about Tinmore, Rocco?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> WOW, this is really something.  I have never seen someone as wrong as you are --- so often  as you are.


Go fuck yourself!  I've never seen you win one debate, with all your bullshit data dumps.  Every time you argue with *Tinny* or *Monte*, they make you their bitch!



RoccoR said:


> The San Remo Manual stipulates five main conditions concerning the imposition of a legal naval blockade during the course of an armed conflict.


This is not an armed conflict.  How can you have an armed conflict, when one side is not allowed to have arms?  Furthermore, an armed conflict infers there are two competing army's of equal strength.  That is not what we have here.  What we have, is the only nuclear power in the ME on one side, versus a population under occupation that isn't allowed to have weapons, a police force, a government, a military, etc...




RoccoR said:


> (1) must be declared and notified;
> (2) must be effective, which is deemed a question of fact;
> (3) must be applied impartially to all vessels;
> (4) cannot prevent access to the ports and coasts of neutral states; and​


​Okay, I'll give you this one.
​


RoccoR said:


> (5) must comply with certain humanitarian law obligations.​


​Uh oh, things are going to get rocky...
​


RoccoR said:


> This criteria is found in:
> *SECTION II* : METHODS OF WARFARE San Remo Manual:
> *Blockade*
> 
> ...


​This is another problem with your argument, this is not a war.  It is a belligerent occupation.
​


RoccoR said:


> The idea that "YOU CANNOT STOP A SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS! PERIOD!" is just plain nonsense.


No it is not nonsense. You haven't posted one thing that says you can have a blockade in international waters.


_ "The quarantined area may not extend too far beyond the coast, although the law isn't specific on distance. (*Many scholars interpret the language of the London Declaration to limit blockades to the standard 12 nautical miles that define *__*territorial waters*__.)"_​



RoccoR said:


> The maintenance of the blockade is, as you can see by paragraph 98, _Force Majeure_.  In the establishment of a blockade, (and for the sake of clarity) there are a few prohibitions -- relative to a blockade -- that should be mentioned.


By all means, mention them.  Because they prove my argument right and your argument full of shit.



RoccoR said:


> 102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
> 
> (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or​


​That is exactly what this blockade is doing to the population of Gaza.

​


RoccoR said:


> (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.​


​Damage to the civilian population is excessive and there was no military advantage anticipated, since the whole point of the blockade was to punish Gazans for not electing Israeli's bitch.




RoccoR said:


> 103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:​


​Well, they're certainly not doing that.




RoccoR said:


> (a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
> (b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.​


​Israel will not allow any impartial organization into the area.




RoccoR said:


> 104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.​


​Israel doesn't do that either.



RoccoR said:


> To my knowledge, since the 01/2009 Blockade Notice to Mariners, several authorities have reviewed the Israeli Blockade.  As we all know, the Israeli blockade is "effective" within the meaning of the San Remo Manual.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R


Most of what you posted as the requirements for a legal blockade, Israel does not meet.

*Is Israel's blockade of Gaza against the law?*
_"Many consider Israel's blockade to be on very shaky legal ground. Its status in the West Bank and Gaza is widely viewed as a __belligerent occupation__, despite the __2005 disengagement__. *Belligerent occupation is different from a true state of war and may not confer the technical right to form a blockade*. Second, Sunday's incident occurred __40 miles off the coast of Gaza__, well outside the traditional blockade range. Finally, Israel has __allegedly been firing on Palestinian fisherman__, which is __absolutely illegal__."_​

Now get this through your fuckin' head, Israel is not the king of the world.  You cannot do whatever you fucking please.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Is Bigmouth with the low IQ playing with his toy boats again?


Isn't it time for another  _*"Mufti Moment"?*_


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > WOW, this is really something.  I have never seen someone as wrong as you are --- so often  as you are.
> ...


Huge fail on that impotent response. 

"This is not an armed conflict" seems to typify your cluelessness and refusal to understand objective data. 

Flailing your Pom Poms in support of your Islamist terrorist heroes is standard fare for you but really, shortstop, get a clue.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 19, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Oh, ye gods and little fishes, you cannot be that naive! The only thing in life you an ever GUARANTEE is death...and taxes, of course.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

I'm not sure you are a true observer.



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The San Remo Manual stipulates five main conditions concerning the imposition of a legal naval blockade during the course of an armed conflict.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Oh, I don't think there is any question as to whether or not it is an armed conflict.  The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) does not deny that they fire rockets and mortars into Israel; nor do they deny that they conduct cross-border operations _(kidnapping, murder, bombings, ambushes, etc)_ into Israel.  The debate centers on two aspects questions:  

1) Are these activities terrorist and jihadist activities?
2) Are these armed actions constitute either international or non-international armed conflicts?​


Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > (5) must comply with certain humanitarian law obligations.​
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, this is always an arguable point.  The Arab Palestinians, especially those in Gaza, nearly always play the part of the innocent victim ravaged by the Jewish Regional Power.
​


Billo_Really said:


> This is another problem with your argument, this is not a war.  It is a belligerent occupation.


*(COMMENT)*

Relative to Customary International Humanitarian Law, the terminology (as stated previously) is either "international or non-international armed conflicts;"  without regard to formal declarations.

Protocol II, which develops and supplements Article 3 common to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 (GCIV) without modifying its existing conditions of application, applies to all armed conflicts which are not covered by Article 1 of the Protocol Additional to the GCIV, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I). 

Non-international armed conflicts do not include conflicts in which two or more States are engaged against each other. Nor do they encompass conflicts extending to the territory of two or more States. 

The conflict between the State of Israel and HAMAS (Government of the Gaza Strip) is not truly a "belligerent Occupation" because the accused Occupying Force (Israel) does not meet the criteria:


*Hague Convention of 1907 --- Article 42*: Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.​
The key here is that Israel must mount a full scale military operation to entry the Gaza Strip and exercise the authority of the Occupation Force.  The Gaza Strip is not under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force as HAMAS clearly agrees with; and Israel does not have such authority as to exercise preventative law enforcement objectives such as the prevention of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza into Israel.
​


Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The idea that "YOU CANNOT STOP A SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS! PERIOD!" is just plain nonsense.
> ...


​*(COMMENT)*

Yes the limit of Territorial Waters is defined in: 

PARt II --- SECTION 2. LIMITS OF THE TERRITORIAL SEA; UNCLOS (*United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 10 December 1982*)


Article 3. Breadth of the territorial sea

Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.​
This does not effect the armed conflict (exchange of hostile fire between forces) and the rules outlined in the San Remo Manual.  The UNCLOS and San Remo Manual are two entirely different set of rules for two entirely different sets of conditions:  UNCLOS for innocent passage, and San Remo Manual for Armed Conflicts.  Don't make the mistake of trying to mix and match.  As a vessel sails from one zone to another, so must the rules change.


*Section V : Neutral merchant vessels and civil aircraft --- 
San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea*
*​NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS​*

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;

(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;

(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;

(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or

(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.​
68. Any attack on these vessels is subject to the basic rules in paragraphs 38-46.

69. The mere fact that a neutral merchant vessel is armed provides no grounds for attacking it.​


Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The maintenance of the blockade is, as you can see by paragraph 98, _Force Majeure_.  In the establishment of a blockade, (and for the sake of clarity) there are a few prohibitions -- relative to a blockade -- that should be mentioned.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I mentioned them in the effort of clarity and honesty --- BUT --- sure, let's go into them.



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > 102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Whether or not you believe that is "exactly what this blockade is doing" is irrelevant.  The standard is whether or not the "blockade" has it as the "sole purpose" of the objective.  Which is not the case.  Israel *is not*, as its "SOLE PURPOSE," attempting to starve the civilian population or deny it other objects essential for its survival. In point of fact, it is not a purpose of the blockade at all.
​


Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.​
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The objective of the Blockade is to prevent contraband weapons from being smuggled into Gaza and being fired into the sovereignty of Israel.  Since the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is still firing rockets and mortars into Israel, it is obvious that the overall strategy is not yet strong enough to achieve a decisive military advantage.

The perception, on the part of the Gazians, that the Blockade is a punishment is entirely wrong.  It is, and unfortunate and unintended consequence of the Gazian supported HAMAS Government opening up hostilities against Israel.  At some point, the people of Gaza must take responsibility for the consequences of their governments action.



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > 103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:​
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In any armed conflict, there will bound to be hardships experienced by one side or the other; if not both.  The Rules of Conflict (Land, Sea or Air) do not demand that parties to the conflict ensure a specific standard of living for the opponent.  The standard is "essential for survival."




Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > (a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Again, this is absolute nonsense!  If you want to read the International Committee of the Red Cross blog from the ICRC resources actually in country and on station in Gaza, one needs only to read ICRCBLOG --- Israel, Golen, West Bank and Gaza.  There is a nice little article on the pro-Palestinian Propaganda piece on the recent efforts.


“Reconstruction of the Strip is grindingly slow,” said Mamadou Sow, head of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Gaza. “This isn’t helped by restrictions on the import of building materials. Relief is being provided by the ICRC and Palestine Red Crescent but it’s not enough, and thousands are still struggling to cope. The impact of the conflict is still being acutely felt by civilians. It will take decades to rebuild Gaza but right now our priority is to meet the urgent humanitarian needs.”​
Again, this is the difference between what is "essential for survival" and what is nice to have.

You may call the ICRC Representative in Gaza @:  Suhair Zakkout, ICRC Gaza, tel: +972 59 925 5381 (English, Arabic)

A list of Gaza Based NGOs can be found at:  WEBGAZA.Net



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > 104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.​
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Alternative land based routes have been established to expedite the passage process.  The objective of Paragraph 104 is to ensure that if essential port arrangement are required, that they are provided.  In this case, the ICRC and other NGOs do not have the port and gantry equipment necessary for container operations (loading and off-loading).



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > To my knowledge, since the 01/2009 Blockade Notice to Mariners, several authorities have reviewed the Israeli Blockade.  As we all know, the Israeli blockade is "effective" within the meaning of the San Remo Manual.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure you understand what "traditional blockade range" means.  Hell, Chile, Ecuador, and Peru, that asserted jurisdiction over waters as well as shelf for as much as 200 nautical miles (370 km) offshore.

It is not uncommon for interdiction patrol craft to fire shots across the bow of ships and boats that fail to heave-to for boarding and inspection.  As you already know, vessels that are believed, on reasonable grounds, to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture; may be fired upon.  In the enforcement of the blockade, the Israeli Navy seldom does that.  Usually, the Israeli Navy fires across the bow and the vessel complies.  BUT, under Section V, Paragraph 67a, failure to comply can result in the vessel being fired upon.  Hostile media coverage usually reports that unarmed fishermen were shot at by the Israeli Navy when in fact, it was merely the standard --- firing across the bow.



Billo_Really said:


> Now get this through your fuckin' head, Israel is not the king of the world.  You cannot do whatever you fucking please.


*(COMMENT)*

The same might be said of the Palestinians.  Although, I believe the Arab-Palestinians are in fact the Queens of self-victimization.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


Pointless. It's pretty clear that your tender sensibilities are offended when facts are presented delineating your Islamic terrorist heroes for precisely what they are.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Huge fail on that impotent response.
> 
> "This is not an armed conflict" seems to typify your cluelessness and refusal to understand objective data.
> 
> Flailing your Pom Poms in support of your Islamist terrorist heroes is standard fare for you but really, shortstop, get a clue.


Typical *Hollie*.  Personally attacking other posters without providing a shred of topical content.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Huge fail on that impotent response.
> ...


Typical Loinboy response. Nothing approaching a coherent response.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

Oh!  Just wait a minute here.



Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Huge fail on that impotent response.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Our friend "Hollie" did not make an _ad hominem_ attack at all.  "Hollie" made a legitimate critique of the commentary provided.  The fact that someone (anyone) could possibly suggest _(as Hollie points out)_ that HAMAS _(representing the population of the Gaza Strip)_ is unarmed and not involved in an armed conflict, is simply totally unaware of the ground truth and reality of the situation.

Not only do I think the observation "Hollie" made --- is quite accurate; but, it was also clear, concise and to the point.  I was absolutely on target as an appropriate response to the comment made.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> I'm not sure you are a true observer.


I am sure, you don't care about the truth.




RoccoR said:


> Oh, I don't think there is any question as to whether or not it is an armed conflict.


There is a very big question, when one side is not allowed to have arms.



RoccoR said:


> The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) does not deny that they fire rockets and mortars into Israel;


In response to Israeli aggression.



RoccoR said:


> nor do they deny that they conduct cross-border operations _(kidnapping, murder, bombings, ambushes, etc)_ into Israel.


Both sides are guilty of that, with Israel taking the lions share of attacks.

_"After the withdrawal comes a period of low-intensity warfare by different Palestinian organizations against Israel and from the Israeli military against Gaza. During 2005-2007 approximately 2700 locally manufactured rockets are fired from Gaza into Israel, resulting in 4 dead and 75 wounded Israelis.* During the same period the IDF fires approximately 14600 shells into Gaza, killing 57 and wounding 270*. There were also raids performed by both parties and repeated Israeli air attacks. Israeli blockades of commerce and travel is a repeatedly used instrument."_​


RoccoR said:


> The debate centers on two aspects questions:
> 
> 1) Are these activities terrorist and jihadist activities?
> 2) Are these armed actions constitute either international or non-international armed conflicts?​


​The answer is no, on both counts.




RoccoR said:


> Yes, this is always an arguable point.  The Arab Palestinians, especially those in Gaza, nearly always play the part of the innocent victim ravaged by the Jewish Regional Power.


They aren't playing the part, they _are_ innocent victims.  Listen asshole, 1.5 million Gazans, are not terrorists.
​ 


RoccoR said:


> Relative to Customary International Humanitarian Law...


Blah, blah, blah.........spare me your unrelated data dumps.





RoccoR said:


> The conflict between the State of Israel and HAMAS (Government of the Gaza Strip) is not truly a "belligerent Occupation" because the accused Occupying Force (Israel) does not meet the criteria:
> 
> 
> *Hague Convention of 1907 --- Article 42*: Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
> The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.​


​When people are prevented from leaving the area to go to work, that is _"under the authority"_ of a foreign force.

_"The 2005 disengagement supposedly signaled the end of the Israeli occupation of Gaza. *But, in reality, it brought more Israeli limitations on the movement of both people and goods*. While the 2005 Agreement on Movement and Access -- brokered by the US and signed by both Israel and the Palestinian Authority -- *should have eased those restrictions, it didn’t. *

The number of day laborers exiting Gaza via the Erez crossing offers a dramatic example. In January of 2000, before the Second Intifada began, *an average of 17,635 day laborers passed through Erez every day. In January of 2005, that number had dropped to 49."*_​If there was no authority, how could restrictions possibly increase after the disengagement?



RoccoR said:


> The key here is that Israel must mount a full scale military operation to entry the Gaza Strip and exercise the authority of the Occupation Force.  The Gaza Strip is not under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force as HAMAS clearly agrees with; and Israel does not have such authority as to exercise preventative law enforcement objectives such as the prevention of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza into Israel.


You're full of shit!  If that was true, then why did Israel start the blockade back in 1991, long before Hamas hit the scene.

_"...*the gradual closure of Gaza began in 1991*, when Israel canceled the general exit permit that allowed most Palestinians to move freely through Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. It was then that non-Jewish residents of Gaza and the West Bank were required to obtain individual permits."_​



RoccoR said:


> Yes the limit of Territorial Waters is defined in:
> 
> PARt II --- SECTION 2. LIMITS OF THE TERRITORIAL SEA; UNCLOS (*United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 10 December 1982*)
> 
> ...


​Nothing there say's you can have a blockade in international waters.

​


RoccoR said:


> I mentioned them in the effort of clarity and honesty --- BUT --- sure, let's go into them.
> 
> Whether or not you believe that is "exactly what this blockade is doing" is irrelevant.  The standard is whether or not the "blockade" has it as the "sole purpose" of the objective.  Which is not the case.  Israel *is not*, as its "SOLE PURPOSE," attempting to starve the civilian population or deny it other objects essential for its survival. In point of fact, it is not a purpose of the blockade at all.


Oh yes it is and the Israeli's already admitted this.

_"during the First Intifada. While the mere mention of the word invokes the image of suicide bombers in the Western imagination, it’s important to bear in mind that *the First Intifada began as a non-violent uprising comprised of civil disobedience, strikes, and boycotts of Israeli goods*. 

So, that* the general exit permit was canceled during this time suggests that this early hit on Palestinian freedom of movement was not rooted in security concerns.* It seems, rather, a retributive act, intended to punish Palestinians for daring to resist the Israeli occupation."_​In addition to that, you have no right telling Gazans they can't have weapons.




RoccoR said:


> The objective of the Blockade is to prevent contraband weapons from being smuggled into Gaza and being fired into the sovereignty of Israel.  Since the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is still firing rockets and mortars into Israel, it is obvious that the overall strategy is not yet strong enough to achieve a decisive military advantage.


Again, Gazans have a right to have weapons to defend themselves.



RoccoR said:


> The perception, on the part of the Gazians, that the Blockade is a punishment is entirely wrong.  It is, and unfortunate and unintended consequence of the Gazian supported HAMAS Government opening up hostilities against Israel.  At some point, the people of Gaza must take responsibility for the consequences of their governments action.


You're a fucking hypocrite!  Why don't you take responsibility for Israeli aggression, which is causing all the rocket fire?

This is ridiculous.  It's taken almost an your to respond to your fucked up , inhuman posts.

Fuck you!

Respectfully,
*billo*


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Typical Loinboy response. Nothing approaching a coherent response.


And nothing in yours, comply's the the forums zone 2 rules.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh!  Just wait a minute here.
> 
> ...


O' contraire *Mr. R*,
Who's_ "impotent response",_ was she referring to?
Who's_ "cluelessness",_ was she referring to?
Who's _"refusal to understand objective data",_ was she referring to?
Who's_ "pom poms",_ was she accusing of "flailing"?
Who was she calling _"shortstop"_?​Where, in any of that post, did she state "why" the response was "impotent"?  Why, was I "clueless"?  What, "objective data" did I not understand?

Everything she posted, was directed at me personally.  There was no relevant content in regards to the OP.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Typical Loinboy response. Nothing approaching a coherent response.
> ...


You poor little short boy.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...


On the contrary, little short boy, your flaming and name-calling was addressed and you were unable to respond without your usual pointlessness.


----------



## toastman (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > WOW, this is really something.  I have never seen someone as wrong as you are --- so often  as you are.
> ...




"Go fuck yourself!  I've never seen you win one debate, with all your bullshit data dumps.  Every time you argue with *Tinny* or *Monte*, they make you their bitch!"

Hahahahahaha !!!! Really now ? This statement could not be more false. you know very well that Rocco has DESTROYED Tinmore on many occasions. You're such a lying Palestinian ass kisser.

It is fun however watching you have a break down


----------



## toastman (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Huge fail on that impotent response.
> ...



You're the one who just attacked Rocco for no reason other than that he made you look like the fool that you are.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 19, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> I'm not sure you are a true observer.
> 
> ...


Relative to Customary International Humanitarian Law, the terminology (as stated previously) is either "international or non-international armed conflicts;" without regard to formal declarations.​
That is *the* question. Is this an international conflict or not?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...


I don't see that as necessarily *the *question*. The *question is:* "*do we take a position of uninterested observer as a virulently hateful politico-religious ideology seeks to completely cleanse an entire portion of the globe of all competing religious/ethnic/ideological entities."

Whats missing from the rhetoric of the usual Joooooo haters is any wailing about the "poor, oppressed moslems" being systemmatically slaughtered by their co-religionists across Iraq and Syria. It's moslems who are slaughtering their way through moslems.  Threads such as this one exist only to placate the IJH Syndrome that oozes from a relative few and we all know who they are. The Arab/Moslem institutionalized hatred of Jews is used by arabs/moslems who seek to use the “_plight of the Palestinians”_™ they spurned from their own nations and lands many, many times as fodder to further their own agendas.

The institution of insensate Jew hatred (which is a function of moslem orthodoxy), was furthered by other Arabs who care less about “Palestinians” than what the “Palestinian” arabs could mean for their own political, financial, and social positions.

All of that provides a fitting context in which to consider the advent of modernity in the Middle East, and how it has contributed in its way to the Islamic extremism we now face. Make no mistake, Islamic extremism far pre-dates the dawn of the modern age in the Arab World. However, one unifying feature of these pre-modern groups, however, is that their violence was generally directed toward the Dar al-Islam itself, rather than the Western world, much like the numerous Protestant-Catholic conflicts major and minor that characterized the age following the death of Luther. Today's Islamic terrorist groups still mostly kill other Moslems, but they have acquired a new target in the modernized West, and these days the various governments of the Middle East and their enablers in the general population really are clueless as to the damage thay are causing themselves.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

Hollie said:


> I don't see that as necessarily *the *question*. The *question is:* "*do we take a position of uninterested observer as a virulently hateful politico-religious ideology seeks to completely cleanse an entire portion of the globe of all competing religious/ethnic/ideological entities."
> 
> Whats missing from the rhetoric of the usual Joooooo haters is any wailing about the "poor, oppressed moslems" being systemmatically slaughtered by their co-religionists across Iraq and Syria. It's moslems who are slaughtering their way through moslems.  Threads such as this one exist only to placate the IJH Syndrome that oozes from a relative few and we all know who they are. The Arab/Moslem institutionalized hatred of Jews is used by arabs/moslems who seek to use the “_plight of the Palestinians”_™ they spurned from their own nations and lands many, many times as fodder to further their own agendas.
> 
> ...


What is missing, is you specifically addressing Israeli atrocities.  Instead, you constantly try to hijack the topic of discussion, away from said atrocities.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

toastman said:


> You're the one who just attacked Rocco for no reason other than that he made you look like the fool that you are.


He disrespected my on-line persona and I couldn't let that go.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 19, 2015)

Hollie said:


> You poor little short boy.


And more zone 2 violations.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see that as necessarily *the *question*. The *question is:* "*do we take a position of uninterested observer as a virulently hateful politico-religious ideology seeks to completely cleanse an entire portion of the globe of all competing religious/ethnic/ideological entities."
> ...


What's not missing is your ineptitude at actually addressing my comments..... short stop. 

Forget to bring your Islamic-terrorist Pom Poms did ya'?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > You poor little short boy.
> ...


Poor little short boy.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > You're the one who just attacked Rocco for no reason other than that he made you look like the fool that you are.
> ...


Standing up to him still left you coming up short, eh?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure you are a true observer.
> ...


That's an_ [your] _hour you will never get back, short stop. Why did you waste your time and everyone else's with that pointless Pom Pom flailing in defense of Islamic fascism?


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 19, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see that as necessarily *the *question*. The *question is:* "*do we take a position of uninterested observer as a virulently hateful politico-religious ideology seeks to completely cleanse an entire portion of the globe of all competing religious/ethnic/ideological entities."
> ...


Yes we all heard your opinions about all the poor Hamas and Fatah members, so how about sticking to your own bullshit?


Billo_Really said:


> I don't care about the Palestinian's. And why should I? They don't affect my daily life in any way. The same goes for Israel. It doesn't affect my daily life. Jews don't affect my daily life. Muslims don't affect my daily life. With that being said, why would I waste time and energy in my own life hating or supporting either one?
> 
> But I will tell you what I do hate. Hypocrites. I hate hypocrites! I hate people who think they can live by a different set of rules than everyone else, which is what I believe Israel thinks it can do. The biggest problem with hypocrites, is they never take responsibility for the things they do. Take you question, for example...


[2014]


----------



## theliq (Jul 19, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


When you speak Hollie,Everyone leaves the room,you talk mostly Shit and are the mere shadow of Billo,something you should keep in mind in the future,you ZIONAZI


----------



## Hollie (Jul 20, 2015)

theliq said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Did I somehow offend your tender Islamo-feelings? As for billy Bo bob, he casts a short shadow.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 20, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Yes we all heard your opinions about all the poor Hamas and Fatah members, so how about sticking to your own bullshit?
> 
> [2014]


My shit ain't bull, *Danny Boy*.


----------



## Daniyel (Jul 20, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Daniyel said:
> 
> 
> > Yes we all heard your opinions about all the poor Hamas and Fatah members, so how about sticking to your own bullshit?
> ...


Excuse me I meant I Billshit.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 20, 2015)

So where was this Palestinian leadership from 1948 to 1988 then, why didn't it make  some moves during that period. So when you say they did not get a chance you mean after the Egyptians and Jordanians kicked them out after they turned on them and tried to steal their countries.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 20, 2015)

If hamas had not stolen all the steel pipes from the sewage works in the first place they would not need replacing. Now they are refusing to accept plastic pipes as replacements because they cant make rockets or pipe bombs from them.
 In the UK we use treated sewage and animal waste to supplement chemical fertilisers as they are more ecologically sound and don't cause damage to the land.


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 20, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> If hamas had not stolen all the steel pipes from the sewage works in the first place they would not need replacing. Now they are refusing to accept plastic pipes as replacements because they cant make rockets or pipe bombs from them.
> In the UK we use treated sewage and animal waste to supplement chemical fertilisers as they are more ecologically sound and don't cause damage to the land.



Maybe they should have brought a check for the taxes that hamas does not want to pay to keep the power station functioning.  Instead of the flotilla they could have used the money and given it to the PA.

Power station is shutting down this week.  Hamas does not want, or claims they can't, pay the tax on the fuel needed.
It is an issue between hamas and the PA.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Under what laws ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Yes those that support islamonazi terrorism


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









As where the Jews, and once again you try and remove the Jews inalienable rights to a homeland and free determination.

So why didn't the Palestinian inhabitants not declare an independent state, or did they and called it trans Jordan ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Which has about as much validity as the recent $9 bills circulated in parts of the US


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Which has about as much validity as the recent $9 bills circulated in parts of the US


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> The bottom line is, Israel has no right  to stop a ship in international waters.  Any ship, for any reason.








Wrong read the maritime laws again in regards to smuggling, gun running and other suspected illegal crimes on the high seas


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > It's so cute when you chest-heaving short boys pretend to be internet tough guys.
> ...






 But you haven't quoted International law have you, you just made a false statement. So care to QUOTE this international law giving details and were it can be found


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Under which international law, give details as in the law, the date implemented and where it states Palestine specifically. It has to predate the Balfour declaration and the mandate for Palestine to be valid.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Under which international law, give details as in the law, the date implemented and where it states Palestine specifically. It has to predate the Balfour declaration and the mandate for Palestine to be valid.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is, you can grasp at straws if you want, but the ship declared that they were going to break through the blockade.
> ...









 Under what law, give details and a link ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

You cant retrospectively use 21C international law to deal with something you don't like that happened in the 20C. If we could then the First nations people, South American Indians, Australian aborigines and J could demand Jews could demand their lands back and the eviction of the invaders.   So it would be goodbye to the "Americans", "Mexicans", "Australians" and arab muslims who would have to be deported to other lands.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 21, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my, Loinboy. In spite of your inability to compose coherent sentences, don't let your short stature be such an impediment to your lewd, crude behavior.
> ...





 See you fantasise about what things would be like if you Jew haters ruled the world, but forget that Hitler tried that and was found dead.   Now do tell the board WHY YOU HATE THE JEWS, as we keep telling you how your hatred manifests itself


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 21, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> Excuse me I meant I Billshit.


Well, alrighty then!


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 21, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Wrong read the maritime laws again in regards to smuggling, gun running and other suspected illegal crimes on the high seas


Why don't you post the maritime law that say's you can?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 22, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Yes, --- Without regard for your interpretation of what the CEIRPP DPR Study says (remembering that it is only a study), history actually shows us that the Arab Palestinian did not actually have sovereignty in either 1922, 1948, or 1967.  It is even questionable if they had the "right to sovereignty," as the Westphalia Compact did not apply to situation such as the Mandate Territories.
> 
> ...


You are trying to smokescreen the core issues. All peoples have a standard list of inherent, inalienable rights.

The right to self determination without external interference.

The right to independence and sovereignty.

The right to territorial integrity.​
Those rights were invoked constantly by the Palestinians and other Arab states all through the Mandate Period.

Those rights were mentioned in legal correspondents of the times.

UN resolutions specifically state that Palestinians have those rights and that those rights existed before the passage of those resolutions.

I would conclude that there is nothing in Palestine's history that altered or negated those rights.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong read the maritime laws again in regards to smuggling, gun running and other suspected illegal crimes on the high seas
> ...





 because you are the one that says they prohibit such actions, so it is up to you to prove it.   Or have you read them and seen that you can stop a vessel on the high seas suspected of smuggling and/or gun running


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 22, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 And all 3 have been given up by the Palestinians themselves since 1948, so making your attempt at clouding the issue a failure. From 1923 the "Palestinians" have been ruled by outside influence in the form of arab nationalists from other nations. They gave up the right to  independence and sovereignty in 1948 when they allowed Jordan and Egypt to take control of their lands. They have constantly refused to negotiate any territorial integrity and blame it on everyone else.

 Those rights could not exist before the date of the resolutions if no one was aware of those rights, if they do then you will be forced to leave America under the same laws and have to live in airports for the rest of your life.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 22, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


And all 3 have been given up by the Palestinians themselves since 1948,​
Link?

Of course not. Just blabber.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 22, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Given you the details and they show that the Palestinians have never been capable of free determination or statehood. Now you want links to the Mandate of Palestine, the Cairo based all palestinian government that acted for gaza alone, the annexing of the west bank, the failure to carry forward the declaration of independence by negotiating borders.

 Why don't you learn to read English then you could be able to educate yourself


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 22, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Still no link?

Deflection.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 22, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> because you are the one that says they prohibit such actions, so it is up to you to prove it.   Or have you read them and seen that you can stop a vessel on the high seas suspected of smuggling and/or gun running


Fuck you, troll!  You don't have a god-damn clue as to what you're talking about.

Maritime Law, is as follows:

*PART VII
*
*HIGH SEAS*

*SECTION 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS

Article 88*
_Reservation of the high seas for peaceful purposes_

_*The high seas shall be reserved for peaceful purposes.*_​
Stopping a humanitarian aid vessel, is not peaceful.


*Article 89*
_Invalidity of claims of sovereignty over the high seas_

_*No State may validly purport to subject any part of the high seas to its sovereignty.*_​
Which means, Israel cannot subject a flotilla ship, to its sovereignty.


*Article 90*
_Right of navigation_

*Every State, whether coastal or land-locked, has the right to sail ships flying its flag on the high seas.*​
Which means, Israel has no right to stop any ship flying the flag of a sovereign nation.


These are the only reasons you can stop a ship on the high seas...

_*Article 110*
Right of visit
_
_*1. Except where acts of interference derive from powers conferred by treaty, a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 and 96, is not justified in boarding it unless there is reasonable ground for suspecting that:*
_
_*(a) the ship is engaged in piracy;
(b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade;
(c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting and the flag State of the warship has jurisdiction under article 109;
(d) the ship is without nationality; or
(e) though flying a foreign flag or refusing to show its flag, the ship is, in reality, of the same nationality as the warship.*_​
And unfortunately for little pieces of shit like you, the flotilla ships are doing none of the above.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 22, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



No change there. Ignore him, he's just a neo-nazi internet troll; not worth the effort.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > because you are the one that says they prohibit such actions, so it is up to you to prove it.   Or have you read them and seen that you can stop a vessel on the high seas suspected of smuggling and/or gun running
> ...


I'm afraid, angry little short man, that your screeching has served no purpose.

These phony publicity stunts entitled as aid flotillas are pointless and time wasting.

*The ‘humanitarian aid’ aboard a recent flotilla to Gaza fit in two cardboard boxes*

*The humanitarian aid aboard a recent flotilla to Gaza fit in two cardboard boxes - The Washington Post*


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 22, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Link to what that is not already common knowledge.

 You are the deflecting because you know that what I wrote is true, and you cant argue against it.

 here goes


The Avalon Project The Palestine Mandate


All-Palestine Government - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Jordan Formally Annexes the West Bank History Today

State of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > because you are the one that says they prohibit such actions, so it is up to you to prove it.   Or have you read them and seen that you can stop a vessel on the high seas suspected of smuggling and/or gun running
> ...








 And reading further we see this under Maritime law


Article111

Right of hot pursuit

1. The hot pursuit of a foreign ship may be undertaken when the competent authorities of the coastal State have good reason to believe that the ship has violated the laws and regulations of that State. Such pursuit must be commenced when the foreign ship or one of its boats is within the internal waters, the archipelagic waters, the territorial sea or the contiguous zone of the pursuing State, and may only be continued outside the territorial sea or the contiguous zone if the pursuit has not been interrupted. It is not necessary that, at the time when the foreign ship within the territorial sea or the contiguous zone receives the order to stop, the ship giving the order should likewise be within the territorial sea or the contiguous zone. If the foreign ship is within a contiguous zone, as defined in article 33, the pursuit may only be undertaken if there has been a violation of the rights for the protection of which the zone was established.

2. The right of hot pursuit shall apply _mutatis mutandis_ to violations in the exclusive economic zone or on the continental shelf, including safety zones around continental shelf installations, of the laws and regulations of the coastal State applicable in accordance with this Convention to the exclusive economic zone or the continental shelf, including such safety zones.

3. The right of hot pursuit ceases as soon as the ship pursued enters the territorial sea of its own State or of a third State.

4. Hot pursuit is not deemed to have begun unless the pursuing ship has satisfied itself by such practicable means as may be available that the ship pursued or one of its boats or other craft working as a team and using the ship pursued as a mother ship is within the limits of the territorial sea, or, as the case may be, within the contiguous zone or the exclusive economic zone or above the continental shelf. The pursuit may only be commenced after a visual or auditory signal to stop has been given at a distance which enables it to be seen or heard by the foreign ship.

5. The right of hot pursuit may be exercised only by warships or military aircraft, or other ships or aircraft clearly marked and identifiable as being on government service and authorized to that effect.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 22, 2015)

Challenger said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...








 Rat boy has spoken, and as usual does not know what he is speaking about


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

Laws don't generally say what you can do.  But rather, state a limit or say what you cannot do.



Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong read the maritime laws again in regards to smuggling, gun running and other suspected illegal crimes on the high seas
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In this case, the law states the minimum requirements for a blockade.

The Treaty Law is outlined in Posting #838.  You are just trying to confuse people by attempting to ignore the Treaty.  If you were even remotely close, the entire Maritime Legal Community and the International Admiralty Courts would have already made this argument.  But they haven't.  WHY?  Because the UNCLOS pertains to peaceful conditions.  The San Remo Manual applies to conditions under Armed Conflict.

Get it together man!   The San Remo Manual (Section II Articles 93 - 100) stipulates five main conditions concerning the *imposition of a legal naval blockade* during the course of an armed conflict.  _*(The UNCLOS does not address blockades.)*_


(1) must be declared and notified;
(2) must be effective, which is deemed a question of fact;
(3) must be applied impartially to all vessels;
(4) cannot prevent access to the ports and coasts of neutral states; and
(5) must comply with certain humanitarian law obligations.​


P F Tinmore said:


> You are trying to smokescreen the core issues. All peoples have a standard list of inherent, inalienable rights.
> 
> The right to self determination without external interference.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Your assertion is the retroactive application of a principle in law.

The right of self-determination does not grant self-determination.  It is a premise that permits the pursuit of self-determination.  The recognition of this principle in a certain number of international treaties cannot be considered as sufficient to put it upon the same footing as a positive rule of the Law of Nations. (*SOURCE:*  League of Nations—Official Journal. October 1920)  You have to apply the concepts and principles as the power-that-be in the 1920's perceived them. Not as you are trying to apply them today.

The right to independence and sovereignty are related to territorial integrity.  In order to have them, you must first have "territory."  The political conditions, during the mandate period, did not grant these rights to the Arab Palestinian.  You cannot pinpoint a time in which the Powers-that-be recognized these rights and how they were to be applied.  The powers-that-be did not grant any such rights to the Palestinians.

The Powers-that-be did not recognize the Palestinians to have any sovereign or independent territory in the eight centuries before the Great War (WWI).  Nor did the surrender instruments grant any special or specific rights, holdings, or authority _(with the exception of undefined civil and religious)_ to the Arab Palestinian at the conclusion of the Great War (WWI).  

From the perspective view of both domestic and international law, the formation, transformation and dismemberment of surrendered territories after WWI to the Allied Powers creates a ground truth which, to a large extent, cannot be overturned by the application of the more modern and contemporary rules of law and the UN Charter. This amounts to a set of conditions that if the essential basis for territorial sovereignty.  It is lacking application to the Arab Palestinian argument, either because the State was not yet fully formed (at the time that Israel declared Independence) or because it is undergoing transformation or dissolution, the situation is obscure and uncertain from a rational point of view _(such as your "smokescreen" undefined assertion that those rights existed before the passage of those resolutions)_. 

Not all cultures extend the same rights and privileges to the people within their respective cultures.  Clearly there is a difference between the rights and protections that westerners _(men and women)_ have --- and those of the Muslims _(men and women)_ have under Islamic Law.  Thus, rights and protections ascribed historically by western cultures are not the same as the rights and protections of the Muslims in the Islamic world.  The Arab Palestinian cannot claim both --- as they are diametrically opposed.  There is no Islamic State that recognizes the right of their citizens to exercise self determination in establishing independence and sovereignty over any territory.  One only needs to look at the struggle with DAESH (AKA: ISIS/ISIL) to see this.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Challenger (Jul 22, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> The right to independence and sovereignty are related to territorial integrity. In order to have them, you must first have "territory." The political conditions, during the mandate period, did not grant these rights to the Arab Palestinian. You cannot pinpoint a time in which the Powers-that-be recognized these rights and how they were to be applied. The powers-that-be did not grant any such rights to the Palestinians.
> 
> The Powers-that-be did not recognize the Palestinians to have any sovereign or independent territory in the eight centuries before the Great War (WWI). Nor did the surrender instruments grant any special or specific rights, holdings, or authority _(with the exception of undefined civil and religious)_ to the Arab Palestinian at the conclusion of the Great War (WWI).



So what legal right had these "powers that be" to grant or deny any rights of the Palestinians? the Palestinians had territory based at the very least on ius soli and ius sanguinis; their rights were the same as any other conquered/liberated peoples. Just because Great Britain tried to "square the circle" to create a Jewish homeland in their country does not remove nor negate these rights.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 22, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The right to independence and sovereignty are related to territorial integrity. In order to have them, you must first have "territory." The political conditions, during the mandate period, did not grant these rights to the Arab Palestinian. You cannot pinpoint a time in which the Powers-that-be recognized these rights and how they were to be applied. The powers-that-be did not grant any such rights to the Palestinians.
> ...







 Rights of sovereignty and rights as victors of the war of 1915-1919. And here we have rat boy trying to claim that only the arab muslims had any rights and the Jews of Palestine were not allowed their own nation. So were was the Jews rights under ius soli and ius sanguinis that you are touting as applicable only to the arab muslims.

 Once again you show your RABID RACIST JEW HATRED


----------



## Hollie (Jul 22, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The right to independence and sovereignty are related to territorial integrity. In order to have them, you must first have "territory." The political conditions, during the mandate period, did not grant these rights to the Arab Palestinian. You cannot pinpoint a time in which the Powers-that-be recognized these rights and how they were to be applied. The powers-that-be did not grant any such rights to the Palestinians.
> ...


There was no such thing as a "Palestinian" at the time of the mandate. The label "Palestinian" was a late 1960's invention of Arafat in a failed attempt to assign a national identity to arab squatters.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Is Bigmouth with the low IQ playing with his toy boats again?
> ...



Why is it acceptable for you to be an idiot, but not acceptable for me to point it out?  I'm sorry I hurt your feelings when I called you stupid. I really thought you already knew.

Go play with your toy battle ships, and low IQ fantasies of America attacking Israel.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > You're the one who just attacked Rocco for no reason other than that he made you look like the fool that you are.
> ...


Tissue?


----------



## Roudy (Jul 22, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The right to independence and sovereignty are related to territorial integrity. In order to have them, you must first have "territory." The political conditions, during the mandate period, did not grant these rights to the Arab Palestinian. You cannot pinpoint a time in which the Powers-that-be recognized these rights and how they were to be applied. The powers-that-be did not grant any such rights to the Palestinians.
> ...



The land was Ottoman territory for 700 years, and then under the control of the British who defeated the Ottomans.  Of course the British had every right to divide the land as they pleased, even the Arabs acknowledged that. After all, 99% of the land the Ottomans controlled in the region was turned into the Arab Muslim shitholes we see today by the British.  But that one Jewish state seems to be the one that upset the savages.  This conflict was and will always all about Islam's intolerance and Muslim inability to coexist.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 22, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


*1. From Ottoman subjects into Palestinian citizens​*

Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens. This is what Article 1, Clause (1), of the 1925 Palestinian Citizenship Order declared with regard to those persons who formed, according to domestic law, the first ‘Palestinians’. 486

As already concluded in Chapter III above, the ‘Palestinian people’ had been defined according to international law on 6 August 1924, the date at which the Treaty of Lausanne was enforced. Hence , the just quoted clause was a mere declaration of pre-existing international law.

http://www.unige.ch/cyberdocuments/theses2007/QafishehM/these.pdf​


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 22, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



The Treaty of Lausanne does not mention Palestine at all.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 22, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


That is correct.

What is your point?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 22, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You said that the Palestinian people had been defined by the Treaty of Lausanne.  However, the treaty that you referenced, doesn't even mention the Palestinians.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 22, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Tinmore thinks denial is a river in Egypt.  He mentions a treaty that creates "Palestinian citizens", yet there is no mention of Palestinians in the treaty.  It's basically like this with all their claims.  And his reaction to being proven wrong is "what is your point".  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> The bottom line is, Israel has no right  to stop a ship in international waters.  Any ship, for any reason.


Who told you that lie?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 22, 2015)

Billo_Really, Hossfly,  et al,

As usual, "Billo_Really" is completely (and 100% wrong) and our friend "Hossfly" is correct.



Hossfly said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > The bottom line is, Israel has no right  to stop a ship in international waters.  Any ship, for any reason.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

OK, one more time!!!!!


*San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflict at Sea*

*SECTION II* : METHODS OF WARFARE


Blockade

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. *Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.*​
The consideration of "international waters" is not a limiting factor in the establishment of a blockade when applying international law to an Armed Conflict.  The *UNCLOS *is not the deciding law in cases of an "armed conflict;" it is the San Remo Manual that is recognized by the international community as the applicable International Humanitarian Law (IHL) interpreted by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

Billo_Really, --- please get it together!

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Challenger (Jul 22, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Doen't mention a Jewish national home or Israel either, what's your point?


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 22, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The Bible do.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 22, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Blockade
> 
> 98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.



The operative phrase here is "breaching a blockade" a declaration of intent to breach is not an actual breach. Had the Mavi Marmarra crossed a hypothetical line into the blockaded area, article 98 could be invoked with impunity, however that was not the case at the time.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 22, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



"Holy" books have no standing in international law; probably a good thing too.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 22, 2015)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



No he didn't. Read what he wrote carefully and it may become clear to you...then again.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 22, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Blockade
> ...



As much as you want to defend your Islamic terrorist heroes, even the UN, in spite of its usual bias against Israel, declared the legitimacy of the blockade and tacitly acknowledged the intent of the flotilla loons as being a propaganda stunt.

http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf


----------



## Hossfly (Jul 22, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Don't tell Billo or he'll blow a gasket.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...








 Changing the paper's source does not alter the contents or the manipulations by the author. He alters international law and treaties to meet with his islamonazi POV making this work of fiction not even fit to be used as toilet paper. The authors of the Mandate and Treaty of Lausanne did not include Palestine for a reason, they had other plans for that area.
 Now read the citizenship order again, only this time in full.  A clue is they became BRITISH PALESTINIANS


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Then how could it apply to Palestine if Palestine was not part of its remit. It could not define Palestine or the Palestinians because it did not mention them deliberately


----------



## Challenger (Jul 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



I've never said the blockade wasn't legally constituted and if it was a propaganda stunt (and I agree it was),  the IDF should have waited until the ship breached the blockade zone before acting; then there could be no argument. Up to that point, regardless of declared intent, the flotilla could have turned around or altered course having made a propaganda point. Oh, the IDF never found any Islamic terrorists on board, just civilian activists, 5 of whom they murdered, according to the Turkish authorities.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Actually it does in the section that brings up the treaty of Sevres for the Turkish to agree and sign

 Seems that ratboy has a penchant for lying all the time when it comes to abusing Israel

Treaty of S vres - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Blockade
> ...






Read it again ratboy and see the second clause      Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked      making the boarding legal


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

This is what he wrote

 As already concluded in Chapter III above, the ‘Palestinian people’ had been defined according to international law on 6 August 1924, the date at which the Treaty of Lausanne was enforced.

So what do you think he wrote ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...








 So were are the news headlines from the last month showing these alleged murders then ?


----------



## Challenger (Jul 23, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



The Lausanne treaty has 143 articles, which article references the treaty of Sevres? Enlighten us all with your brilliance.....I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


I can understand that if you completely rewrite the actual events, "if they...."', "had they....", ".... but..... but.... but....", events would have unfolded differently. 

The fact remains, the silly flotilla nonsense was a propaganda stunt that was ill-considered and designed to provoke a confrontation.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Confrontation, not a massacre.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> Don't tell Billo or he'll blow a gasket.


You Israeli kiss-asses are funny.  You keep pushing that flawed Palmer Report, like it's the Old Testament.  Unfortunately for you Israeli butt-munchers, it's not.  It is a _fatally flawed document_, that wasn't even intended to determine the legality of the blockade.  They were commissioned to resolve the problems with Israel-Turkish relations, following the illegal attack on the Mavi Marmara.

I'm sorry, but that dog don't hunt.

_"Installed in UN Headquarters in New York far from the site of the incident, the Panel did not see any exhibits or meet any witnesses, but has based its findings on information provided by the two delegations in the dispute."_​
They met in New York with committee members that were partisan to Israel.

_"The report repeatedly makes it clear that the Panel was not a court. "_​
Which means, you cannot use this Report as a legal document.

_"The result is effectively an opinion of the leadership, with the qualified partisan support from their colleagues."_​
No shit, Sherlock!

_"Israel’s summary was based on the Turkel Commission’s report for which the Panel notes that original material was not provided."_​
Which means what they read, was vetted by the Hasbara propaganda machine.

_"It also observes that Turkel has completely ignored the report of the UNHRC FFM (to which it formed an opposing opinion on the legality of the blockade)."_​
The UNHRC-FFM, BTW,* was* commissioned to determine the legality of the blockade and found it not only to be illegal, but a war crime of "collective punishment".

So take your little Palmer Report, wrap it around *Phoeny,* shove it up *Hollie's* racist, lying ass and see if she dances better.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> I can understand that if you completely rewrite the actual events, "if they...."', "had they....", ".... but..... but.... but....", events would have unfolded differently.
> 
> The fact remains, the silly flotilla nonsense was a propaganda stunt that was ill-considered and designed to provoke a confrontation.


I understand you are a vicious, vindictive bitch, with no connection to reality.

The blockade is illegal; the boarding of the Mavi Maramara was illegal; and your contention that it is okay to collectively punish 1.5 million people who have committed no crime, just shows you are sick in the head!

You are about as scum as one human being can get.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Ah man, I missed *Sharknado3* tonight!

_Fuckin' Jooo's..._


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...








 And were was the massacre reported in the press in the last month ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Don't tell Billo or he'll blow a gasket.
> ...







 Getting rattled again dildo because a UN commission found that the BLOCKADE WAS LEGAL.  If it wasn't the UN would have forced Israel to lift it by now, why haven't they ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I can understand that if you completely rewrite the actual events, "if they...."', "had they....", ".... but..... but.... but....", events would have unfolded differently.
> ...






And when your fantasy world ceases to exist the laws of this one will still make the blockade legal and the boarding of the Mavi Maramara legal under International law.

How are they being punished then, give details of the punishment dished out by the Israeli's ?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I can understand that if you completely rewrite the actual events, "if they...."', "had they....", ".... but..... but.... but....", events would have unfolded differently.
> ...


The blockade was not illegal, shortstop.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Don't tell Billo or he'll blow a gasket.
> ...


I dance just fine, sweetie.

I understand you find it galling that you're typically uninforned, unintelligent and absent the ability to reach informed conclusions but..... you could always hang yourself, with a very short rope.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Ah man, I missed *Sharknado3* tonight!
> 
> _Fuckin' Jooo's..._


In one _short_ sentence from the link to the UN report I supplied previously:
81. The Panel therefore concludes that Israel’s naval blockade was legal.


http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


"Massacre", while intended to add melodrama, is overstating the facts. Your heroes went looking for a confrontation and got that, and more. Why are they whining when their provocation resulted in the confrontation they chose to pursue?

Its a bit of what we can describe as IAS (Incompetent Arab Syndrome). Arabs-moslems have this " thing" with attacking Israel and when they get their noses rubbed in the dirt with humiliating defeats, they run to the UN for cover seeking a hudna while they re-arm with the benefit of UN welfare dollars.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> In one _short_ sentence from the link to the UN report I supplied previously:
> 81. The Panel therefore concludes that Israel’s naval blockade was legal.
> 
> 
> http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > In one _short_ sentence from the link to the UN report I supplied previously:
> ...



Denial is for angry short boys.


----------



## Challenger (Jul 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Oh, OK. I was just following the Zionist press approach: 

The Jewish Press Israeli-Druze Policeman First on Scene in Har Nof Massacre Fighting for His Life

Boston Jews mourn Jerusalem massacre victims at vigil The Times of Israel

So 5 dead Israelis is a Massacre, but 5 dead Turks is a Melodrama, OK I understand now.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


When knucklehead flotilla'ists go looking for a confrontation, find it, and it goes badly for them, is that a "massacre" or a confirmation of Darwinian Theory?


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > In one _short_ sentence from the link to the UN report I supplied previously:
> ...



Yet to see such a big mouth combined with such low IQ. 

UN investigation backs Israel s naval blockade of Gaza World news The Guardian


----------



## toastman (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The point is that the Treaty of Lausanne has nothing to do with Palestine or 'Palestinians'


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


It freed Palestine from Turkish rule and laid out their nationality.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



If you look in an urban dictionary for the definition of "Palestinians" it's listed as:

_A term for the high-pitched screeching that accompanies continued Arab/Moslem demands for infidel welfare dollars to prop up the notion of an invented people with an invented identity,_

See also:

_Mo' money,   mo' money. mo' money._


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Does it say that in those words, or is that your interpretation of it ?  What it did is set the scene for the Jewish national home in Palestine, and allowed the arab muslims from Saudi to rule over arab muslim nomads


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


No it didn't. It didn't say anything about that.

NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.

Treaty of Lausanne - World War I Document Archive​


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



No Palestine under Turkish rule for 700 years, dufus.  Palestine and Palestinians are a 20th century invention.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.




 So which state was Palestine transferred to again, remembering that there was no state of Palestine at that time ?

 You lose again because you don't read and digest what you post.............................


----------



## toastman (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



No, it didn't.


----------



## toastman (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



"The treaty delimited the boundaries of Greece, Bulgaria, and Turkey; formally ceded all Turkish claims on the Dodecanese Islands (Article 15); Cyprus (Article 20);[11]Egypt and Sudan (Article 17); Syria and Iraq (Article 3); and (along with the Treaty of Ankara) settled the boundaries of the latter two nations.[1]"


Treaty of Lausanne - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

No mention of Palestine.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I see pro-Palestinians cite this Article quite frequently.



P F Tinmore said:


> No it didn't. It didn't say anything about that.
> 
> NATIONALITY.
> ARTICLE 30.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

They get this wrong all the time.

"In the conditions laid down by the local law,"
The local law, at the conclusion of the Great War, for the territory to which a given  Mandate was applied:
Palestine Order in Council
Mandate for Palestine
Palestine Citizenship Order


"Nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred"
Under Article 16 _("Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognized by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.")_, the territory was remanded into the custody of the Allied Powers.  The Allied Powers further remanded custody to the Mandatory Powers.

The Pro-Palestinians try to imply that this Article 30 grants some special status to the Palestinians.  All it does is insures that no one, at the outcome of the War, is a stateless person.  It does not confer any special sovereignty - any specific citizenship title, or state status to any habitually resident anywhere in the former Empire.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## aris2chat (Jul 23, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



diarrhea of the mouth, constipation of the brain


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


It seems like he enjoys making himself look like an idiot.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Who said there wasn't?

Link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I see pro-Palestinians cite this Article quite frequently.
> 
> ...


How does that relate to my post?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

The League of Nations, entrusted the administration of the Territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them the Allied Powers in 1922.

It was not sovereign to the Arabs of Palestine, nor was it self governing.



P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Within the land outline by the Treaty of Lausanne, in ARTICLE 3, the territory from the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down as Syria:  The frontier described in Article 8 of the Franco-Turkish Agreement of the 20th October, 1921.


*PART I. Palestine Order in Council*





PRELIMINARY.
Title.1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.​
I am interested in where P F Tinmore says specifically that "Palestine" is _(by name or by territorial outline)_ identified as a self-governing, sovereign territory --- by the Treaty, or other such document.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> The League of Nations, entrusted the administration of the Territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them the Allied Powers in 1922.
> 
> ...


Why are you trying to smokescreen the issues.

You know that "self governing" is not a relevant issue.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


I'm not the one in denial.  You're acting like a little 10 year old, with her fingers in her ear, repeating the same line over and over and over...

It's interesting that I can explain why your precious Palmer Report cannot be used to justify the legality of the blockade, but you're unable to explain why it can? 

_*Hollie's* horseshit:
81. The Panel therefore concludes that Israel’s naval blockade was legal._​
The "Panel", was not commissioned to conclude whether the blockade was legal.  That was not its mission.  And that "conclusion", is nothing more than an Op-Ed.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Yet to see such a big mouth combined with such low IQ.
> 
> UN investigation backs Israel s naval blockade of Gaza World news The Guardian


I wouldn't talk about the IQ of others, when you keep pushing a fatally flawed document, that cannot be used as the legal authority on the blockade.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Roudy said:


> It seems like he enjoys making himself look like an idiot.


You gotta love a thread like this, because it shows just how big of assholes, Zionists are.  It also shows how stupid and afraid they are.

Stupid, because they think others will buy into their constant name-calling, when it's obvious for all to see, they're afraid to specifically address arguments against them.

I blew your dumbass Palmer Report out of the sky and stated the reasons why; all your rebuttal consisted of, was a bunch of lame ass name-calling and repeating the same line you said before.

Which makes me wonder, are there any Zionists past the age of 10?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


The Palmer Report was a political opinion not a legal finding.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,

There is no smokescreen here.



P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


It freed Palestine from Turkish rule and laid out their nationality.[/QUOTE]


P F Tinmore said:


> Why are you trying to smokescreen the issues.
> You know that "self governing" is not a relevant issue.


*(COMMENT)*

You implied that the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) freed Palestine from Turkish rule and laid out their nationality.

The Territory to which the Mandate applied (1922) was first placed under the authority of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) over the Levantine and Mesopotamian provinces freeing them from the former Ottoman Empire between 1918–20.  The OETA was established following the Armistice of Mudros and the campaigns over Sinai and Palestine.

The Treaty made no specifics.  The Treaty, relative to nationality issues, spoke in generalities relative to all the territory remanded to the Allied Powers.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,
> 
> There is no smokescreen here.
> 
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> Why are you trying to smokescreen the issues.
> You know that "self governing" is not a relevant issue.


*



			(COMMENT)
		
Click to expand...

*


> You implied that the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) freed Palestine from Turkish rule and laid out their nationality.
> 
> The Territory to which the Mandate applied (1922) was first placed under the authority of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) over the Levantine and Mesopotamian provinces freeing them from the former Ottoman Empire between 1918–20.  The OETA was established following the Armistice of Mudros and the campaigns over Sinai and Palestine.
> 
> ...


The Treaty made no specifics. The Treaty, relative to nationality issues, spoke in generalities relative to all the territory remanded to the Allied Powers.​
Including Palestine. Nothing refutes my post.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > It seems like he enjoys making himself look like an idiot.
> ...



You did no such thing.  You blew more smoke out of Uranus and proved once again that you are a big mouthed low IQ ahole who enjoys making a fool out of himself.  

UN found the blockade completely legal, case closed.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Yeah?  Then how the fuck did the UN find the blockade to be LEGAL. 

Ha ha ha. What a bunch of mentally ill morons.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yet to see such a big mouth combined with such low IQ.
> ...



Yeah?  Then what is the legal authority?  Big mouth low IQ assholes like you?   Ha ha ha.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,
> 
> There is no smokescreen here.
> 
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> Why are you trying to smokescreen the issues.
> You know that "self governing" is not a relevant issue.


*(COMMENT)*

You implied that the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) freed Palestine from Turkish rule and laid out their nationality.

The Territory to which the Mandate applied (1922) was first placed under the authority of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) over the Levantine and Mesopotamian provinces freeing them from the former Ottoman Empire between 1918–20.  The OETA was established following the Armistice of Mudros and the campaigns over Sinai and Palestine.

The Treaty made no specifics.  The Treaty, relative to nationality issues, spoke in generalities relative to all the territory remanded to the Allied Powers.

Most Respectfully,
R[/QUOTE]

Tinmore doesn't like to deal with any fact that refutes his asinine claims and will deny and divert until eternity. You can take a donkey like him to water hundreds of times, but you can't make him drink the water.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


You, as always, came up short in your weak attempt to save you shrunken credibility. 

The panel concluded: "....._ that Israel’s naval blockade was legal."
_
You're incensed by the panel's conclusion because Israel's actions were consistent with established constructs of law and, more than that, because it conflicts with your stunted self esteem and your ignorance regarding the matter. 

Sorry there, shortstop. Now go wipe that unseemly drool left from your saliva-slinging tirade.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Your hurt feelings are noted and ignored. 

The findings and conclusion are consistent with established law. 

Your terrorist heroes lose again.

How's that workin' out for ya'?


----------



## Hollie (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,
> ...



Everything refutes your post. Rocco laid in detail why your rambling was a fraud.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I think you've not read my post.



P F Tinmore said:


> Including Palestine. Nothing refutes my post.


*(COMMENT)*

The Treaty did not free any holdings placed under OETA.

The Treaty did not attach any nationality.

The applicable documents, prior to the Treaty, were listed in *Post #956*.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 23, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I think you've not read my post.
> 
> ...


So, what part of all that refuted my post?


----------



## Roudy (Jul 23, 2015)

^^^^^
So, all of it.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> You, as always, came up short in your weak attempt to save you shrunken credibility.
> 
> The panel concluded: "....._ that Israel’s naval blockade was legal."
> _
> ...


Your "Panels" conclusion, was like an auto mechanic explaining the intricacies of open heart surgery and concluding its not a life threatening procedure.  And you're telling everyone, that if you were the one who needed the procedure, you'd go to an auto mechanic  for advice.

Not only that, you'd also dismiss the advice of a heart surgeon and telling everyone the auto mechanic was the authority in this case.

There were no experts in international maritime law, on your "Panel".  There were no legal experts in international law, on your "Panel".  There was a bunch of partisan hacks, such as yourself, using the UN for a hasbara report.

Your "Panel", has no credibility within the international community.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 23, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Yeah?  Then what is the legal authority?  Big mouth low IQ assholes like you?   Ha ha ha.


The_* UNHRC-FFM*_ report, that _*was *_commissioned to determine the legality of the blockade.


_*"The FFM was equipped with a large support team so that its own very senior lawyers who are experienced in international criminal law were supplemented by experts in the law of the sea and international humanitarian law. * In addition it met with a number of non-governmental organizations, had assistance from law firms in three countries, and was thoroughly briefed on the situation in Gaza by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. 

*The UN [Palmer] Panel did not have the services of anyone with expertise in international criminal or maritime law* and did not conduct interviews of its own. That it should now criticise its *more senior and better equipped counterparts in the UNHRC* is an indication of the unreal world in which it has functioned."_​


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Wow...  I can hardly believe you asked that.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Your Posting #948 is refuted.  In it you suggest that  "It  _(The Lausanne Treaty)_ freed Palestine from Turkish rule and laid out their nationality."  It does not.

Your Posting #951 is refuted.  While you merely copy Article 30, you do not actually apply it to a given condition.  My Posting #956 completely refutes your implication that Article 30 has some impact on the establishment of Nationality that was not already in effect.

For the purposes of this Order and pending the introduction of an Order in Council regulating Palestinian citizenship, the following persons shall be deemed to be Palestinian citizens:

(a)Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine at the date of commencement of this Order.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





(b)All persons of other than Turkish nationality habitually resident in the territory of Palestine at the said date, who shall within two calendar months of the said date make application for Palestinian citizenship in such form and before such officer as may be prescribed by the High Commissioner. ​- See more at: Mandate for Palestine - The Palestine Order in LoN Council - Mandatory order 10 August 1922 ​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Jul 23, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,
> ...



But you didn't prove anything. All you did was make the claim about the treaty but zero proof.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah?  Then what is the legal authority?  Big mouth low IQ assholes like you?   Ha ha ha.
> ...


Your link takes us to "Global Research"? THAT'S your idea of a legit source?!   Bwahahahahahaha! 

Hey I have an idea, why won't you go and make a clone of yourself, that way you can go fuck yourself, you low IQ'd shitstain.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Your link takes us to "Global Research"? THAT'S your idea of a legit source?!   Bwahahahahahaha!
> 
> Hey I have an idea, why won't you go and make a clone of yourself, that way you can go fuck yourself, you low IQ'd shitstain.


So your point is what, big brain?  That because the report is posted on a website you don't particularly care for, it doesn't exist?  That there's no UNHRC-FFM report on the Gaza blockade?  Is that your contention, Mr. High I.Q.?

Or are bullshit innuendo's and ad hominems as far as your grey matter can take you?

Well, here's the_* UNHRC-FFM*_ report, that concluded the blockade was illegal.
_ 
59. The Mission finds that the policy of blockade or closure regime, including the naval blockade imposed by Israel on Gaza was inflicting disproportionate civilian damage.* The Mission considers that the naval blockade was implemented in support of the overall closure regime*. As such it was part of a single disproportionate measure of armed conflict and as such cannot itself be found proportionate.

60. Furthermore, *the closure regime is* considered by the Mission to constitute collective punishment of the people living in the Gaza Strip and thus to be *illegal and contrary to article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. *_​


----------



## Roudy (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Your link takes us to "Global Research"? THAT'S your idea of a legit source?!   Bwahahahahahaha!
> ...


Palmer report is the only binding one.  The rest are meaningless garbage and propoganda pieces. Case closed. 

*UN Palmer report: blockade of Gaza legal*

The release of the United Nations Palmer report into last year's flotilla incident aboard the Mavi Marmara has vindicated Israel by finding that its naval blockade of the Gaza strip is legal under international law. Moreover, Israel has the right to enforce that blockade - including in international waters. It has also rebutted many of the false claims and assumptions that have been made about the flotilla incident and about the broader situation in Gaza.

The UN investigative committee headed by former prime minister of New Zealand Sir Geoffrey Palmer, an expert on maritime law, was established by the UN to examine the Israeli raid on the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara on May 31, 2010.

On that day, seven flotilla ships were seeking to break the Israeli-Egyptian blockade of Gaza when they were intercepted by the Israeli navy seeking to escort the ships to the Ashdod port to inspect their goods. On the ship Mavi Marmara, clashes broke out after activists attacked Israeli commandos with baseball bats, steel bars, and live fire. Israeli commandos used both non-lethal weaponry and live fire to defend themselves. Nine activists were killed, and seven Israeli commandos were wounded.

The Palmer report unequivocally found that: "Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law." The report urged that all future efforts to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza should be done "through established procedures and the designated land crossings in consultation with the government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority", thus discouraging future Gaza flotillas.

The report also questioned the motives of the flotilla organisers, in stating that: "Although people are entitled to express their political views, the flotilla acted recklessly in attempting to breach the naval blockade. The majority of the flotilla participants had no violent intentions, but there exists serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organisers, particularly the IHH [Humanitarian Relief Foundation - the Turkish aid group that primarily organised the flotilla]. The actions of the flotilla needlessly carried the potential for escalation."

Israel has adopted the Palmer report, with the exception of some reservations in relation to the report's finding that Israel's decision to board the vessels in the manner it did was "excessive and unreasonable". Israel rejects that finding, arguing that repeated warnings were given to the vessels and that its soldiers boarding the Mavi Marmara were in immediate danger and therefore acted in self-defence.

And in fact, the Palmer report was clear about this last reality, stating: "The Israeli Defence Force personnel faced significant, organised and violent resistance from a group of passengers when they boarded the Mavi Marmara requiring them to use force for their own protection. Three soldiers were captured, mistreated and placed at risk by those passengers. Several others were wounded."

The Palmer report also raises serious questions about the Palestinians' readiness for statehood. The Palestinians are seeking UN recognition of an independent Palestinian state on the pre-1967 lines, which includes the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem.  However, while it may be argued that the West Bank is ready for statehood, it appears pretty clear that Gaza is not, as it is still run by Hamas - a recognised terrorist organisation that continues to launch rockets and mortars in Israel. The Palmer report acknowledged the threat to Israel posed by Hamas terrorists, in stating that:

_Israel has faced and continues to face a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. Rockets, missiles and mortar bombs have been launched from Gaza toward Israel since 2001. More than 5,000 were fired between 2005 and January 2009, when the naval blockade was imposed. Hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians live in the range of these attacks. As their effectiveness has increased, some rockets are now capable of reaching Tel Aviv. Since 2001 such attacks have caused more than 25 deaths and hundreds of injuries. The enormity of the psychological toll on the affected population cannot be underestimated... It seems obvious enough that stopping these violent acts was a necessary step for Israel to take in order to protect its people and to defend itself._

The Palmer report goes on to highlight the dangers posed by Hamas, and repudiates those who deny that Israel is involved in something resembling a state of war with Hamas, or those who claim that Israel is somehow still "occupying" Gaza, despite having no presence on the ground inside that territory. The Palmer report stated:

_It is Hamas that is firing the projectiles into Israel or is permitting others to do so. The Panel considers the conflict should be treated as an international one for the purposes of the law of blockade. This takes foremost into account Israel's right to self-defence against armed attacks from outside territory. In this context, the debate on Gaza's status, in particular its relationship to Israel, should not obscure the realities... it is implausible to deny that the nature of the armed violence between Israel and Hamas goes beyond purely domestic matters. In fact, it has all the trappings of an international armed conflict… Israel was entitled to take reasonable steps to prevent the influx of weapons into Gaza._

Those who argue that the UN should grant the Palestinians a state without a peace agreement with Israel therefore have to answer these questions: do they really want to create a new state which will be co-run by the very terrorists described in the UN Security Council's own flotilla report as waging war on Israel in a way that targets Israeli civilians in contravention of international law? Should Hamas be rewarded for doing so with a declaration inviting them to join the "international community" of civilised nations as part of a Palestinian unity government?


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Palmer report is the only binding one.  The rest are meaningless garbage and propoganda pieces. Case closed.
> 
> *UN Palmer report: blockade of Gaza legal*
> 
> ...


The Palmer Report is not binding and was not commissioned to determine the legality of the blockade.  Its "Mission", was to ease Israeli-Turkey relations and that's it.

There were _no experts in international law_ on the whole Panel.

_*The unusually small inquiry panel itself lacked credibility*. It was chaired by former __New Zealand prime minister__ and international environment law expert Geoffrey Palmer. Astonishingly, the only other independent member was its vice-chair, the former president of Colombia. __Alvaro Uribe__’s notorious history as a human rights abuser who called human rights advocates such as Amnesty International “rats,” as well as *his legacy of seeking out the closest possible ties to and defense of Israel while in office*, make him wildly inappropriate for such an assignment. The panel was rounded out with two members appointed by Israel and Turkey, each of whom appended a partisan dissent to the report._​
And since the Panel had no experts, their comments on the legality of the blockade are not credible.

_*"the report of the Palmer Commission is severely flawed from an international law perspective*. The most significant finding of the report is its most dangerous and *legally dubious*: the conclusion that Israel’s blockade of Gaza, in effect since mid-2007, was somehow, despite being severely harmful to the 1.5 million Palestinians living in Gaza, a legitimate act of self-defense. The report gives considerable attention to the illegal rockets fired into Israel by Palestinian militants mainly associated with Hamas, and notes, appropriately, that “stopping these violent acts was a necessary step for Israel to take in order to protect its people.” But while that justifies protective action,* it does not make the case for a valid claim of self-defense under international law*."_​
The Panel definitely showed its lack of legal expertise.

_*"The report ignores altogether the crucial fact that a unilateral ceasefire had been observed by Hamas ever since the end of the Gaza War in early 2009.* An earlier joint Israeli-Palestinian ceasefire had been declared in July 2008, and had led to a virtual halt in rocket attacks until it was broken by Israel in November of that year, in a lethal assault on Gaza that led to a crumbling of the ceasefire and thereafter to Israel’s Operation Cast Lead on December 27, 2008. *The Palmer report cannot be legally persuasive on the central issue of self-defense without addressing the relevance of these ceasefires that gave Israel a viable security alternative to blockade and force.* The fact that the word “ceasefire” does not even appear in the 105-page document underscores why this report is so unconvincing except to Israel’s partisans.  Instead of trying diplomacy, which had shown itself effective, Israel relied on a naval blockade, which prevented every boat from reaching the Gaza Strip, establishing a military siege, cruelly confining all Gazans, children, women and men (more than 50 percent of Gaza’s population is below the age of 15) living under occupation in what amounts to an open-air prison. *Such a blockade is a massive and sustained example of collective punishment, unequivocally prohibited by Article 33 of the **Fourth Geneva Convention*."_​
But I do understand why you keep pushing this Palmer Report.

It's all you got!


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Will the UN and the Palestinians do

A 43 827-S 20278 of 18 November 1988


 In the land of heroic Algeria and as the guest of its people and its President, Chadli Bendjedid, the Palestine National Council held its nineteenth extraordinary session - the session of the intifadah (uprising) and national independence, the session of the martyr and hero Abu Jihad - from 12 to 15 November 1988.

 The session culminated in the declaration of the Palestinian State on our Palestinian land, representing the natural culmination of a valiant and tenacious popular struggle which has continued for more than 70 years and taken its toll in the immense sacrifices made by our people in its homeland, on its frontiers and in all the camps and places to which it has been dispersed.



 So no state of Palestine before this date officially


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...







 because it spells out that you don't know what you are talking about in regards to international law regarding Palestine, and you just spout any LIE that shows the Jews in a bad light.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Palmer report is the only binding one.  The rest are meaningless garbage and propoganda pieces. Case closed.
> ...







 What is it you say again,    AD HOMINENS ARE NOT VALID REBUTTALS


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...






 Then why do you throw it into the mix all the time as if it is relevant. Without any form of self governance the arab muslims don't have a case. And seeing as they only declared self governance in 1988 then all that went before was of no consequence.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...







As far as the UN are concerned the blockade has been declared legal, and it was part of the remit of the panel that was set up to decide on ALL FACTORS regarding the boarding of the Mavi Marmara.

The conlusions of the panel are



The Panel finds:

i. The events of 31 May 2010 should never have taken place as they did and

strenuous efforts should be made to prevent the occurrence of such incidents

in the future.


ii. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is

subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces

a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade

was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons

from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the

requirements of international law.

iii. The flotilla was a non-governmental endeavour, involving vessels and

participants from a number of countries.

iv. Although people are entitled to express their political views, the flotilla acted

recklessly in attempting to breach the naval blockade. The majority of the

flotilla participants had no violent intentions, but there exist serious questions

about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers,

particularly IHH. The actions of the flotilla needlessly carried the potential

for escalation.



v. The incident and its outcomes were not intended by either Turkey or Israel.

Both States took steps in an attempt to ensure that events did not occur in a

manner that endangered individuals’ lives and international peace and

security. Turkish officials also approached the organizers of the flotilla with

the intention of persuading them to change course if necessary and avoid an

encounter with Israeli forces. But more could have been done to warn the

flotilla participants of the potential risks involved and to dissuade them from

their actions.

vi. Israel’s decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great

distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior

to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable:

a. Non-violent options should have been used in the first instance. In

particular, clear prior warning that the vessels were to be boarded and a

demonstration of dissuading force should have been given to avoid the

type of confrontation that occurred;




 For more read here

http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yet to see such a big mouth combined with such low IQ.
> ...






 It can when the UN regards it as a legal authority on the whole subject of the Blockade and illegal actions regarding the Blockade.

 Your counter is just one persons POV on the subject


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > It seems like he enjoys making himself look like an idiot.
> ...








 No you produced a flawed report from someone acting on their own authority without any actual authority to do so.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...








 It was a duly recognised UN fact finding commission and as such had legal standing as far as the UN was concerned. The link dildo provided was just an opinion of no consequence so has no bearing on the subject.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,
> ...






 So if it dealt with generalities how could it be specific to Palestine as you claim. All it did was transfer sovereignty to the LoN for all the former Ottoman empire lands, it did not make a nation of Palestine or trans Jordan or even Syria.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...







 The UN who instructed the panel in the first place. Or are you saying that the UN is not a good enough authority to decide the legality of the commission report ?


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 All of it and you cant understand how because you just want to be right all the time.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > You, as always, came up short in your weak attempt to save you shrunken credibility.
> ...







 Wrong analogy again dildo as it would be more like a Mechanic explaining the workings of an IC engine to you. They will have taken legal council and read all the appropriate legal books on the subject matter. Then they will have had access to the legal eagles of the UN to clarify the legalities. The UN accepted the report as being legal and that is what matters, not what you or Falk are saying in regards to the matter. He is just a rabid Jew Hating anti semitic Nazi proven many times and why he lost his job at the UN.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah?  Then what is the legal authority?  Big mouth low IQ assholes like you?   Ha ha ha.
> ...






 So what legal authority does the author of this piece of crap have, to save you the bother ne has none and is nothing more than a British human rights activist and researcher who writes occasional articles on Middle East topics for various online publications    He has no legal training and is about as much use in deciding legal matters as you are.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Palmer report is the only binding one.  The rest are meaningless garbage and propoganda pieces. Case closed.
> ...



I have the official impartial UN report and you have opinions from assholes such as yourself whining about the findings of the report.  It's all you got.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 24, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Yeah big mouth with the low IQ just loves to post crap from his favorite website "Global Compost". Like they say, garbage in, garbage out. Ha ha ha.


----------



## Phoenall (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Palmer report is the only binding one.  The rest are meaningless garbage and propoganda pieces. Case closed.
> ...








 It is enough as it is the only one that has the UN backing and was accepted as being legal.


----------



## Roudy (Jul 24, 2015)

That's right big mouth, opinion pieces from global compost don't count. LOL


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 24, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


----------



## Hollie (Jul 24, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


What was gravely flawed was a propaganda stunt that should never have been undertaken. 

The flotilla was intended to be antagonistic and the perps got a confrontation, just as they expected and a smack down, just as they deserved.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 24, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> As far as the UN are concerned the blockade has been declared legal, and it was part of the remit of the panel that was set up to decide on ALL FACTORS regarding the boarding of the Mavi Marmara.
> 
> The conlusions of the panel are
> 
> ...


The Panel only reviewed information given to it by Israel and Turkey.  It did no independent investigation of its own. It did not talk to anyone that were present during the incident.  The Panel did not have any legal experts in international maritime law.

With all that being said, the Panel *ADMITS* its findings are not to be construed as a legal document.  Don't tell me you missed their disclaimer, from your own link?

_From* Phoeny's* link:
*...[the Panel] was not acting as a Court and was not asked to adjudicate on legal liability.  Its findings and recommendations are therefore not intended to attribute any legal responsibilities.*_​

*Boo-yah, bitches!*

Now go back under your scumbag rocks.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > As far as the UN are concerned the blockade has been declared legal, and it was part of the remit of the panel that was set up to decide on ALL FACTORS regarding the boarding of the Mavi Marmara.
> ...


And yet, Shortstop,

1) the publicity stunt was a disaster for the pointless flotilla'ists,

2) the Palmer Report had no need to make a determination of law because maritime law is already established,

3) the summary section of the report Indicates that there is nothing in maritime law that prohibits the action of the Israeli Navy,

4) you're still an angry, self-hating short boy.

Boo-yaw, shortstop.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 24, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

Does it change the truth of the reality?



Billo_Really said:


> [
> 
> _From* Phoeny's* link:
> *...[the Panel] was not acting as a Court and was not asked to adjudicate on legal liability.  Its findings and recommendations are therefore not intended to attribute any legal responsibilities.*_​
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Just because the Panel did not have it as part of its warrant and commission, does not change the facts.  Most of the quasi-Investigations by the UN (directed specifically against Israel) are performed by Humanitarians activities and not either professional personnel with investigative experience or event experience in the specific realm under inquiry.  In the case of the Blockade, the UN Human Rights Commission that concluded the blockade to be illegal, did NOT use the standard law relative to International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea _(ie the San Remo Manual)_.  This is the principle difference between the outcome of the two independent investigation.  In fact the UNHRC Investigation is a case in which there is reasonable grounds to assume the Commission intentionally corrupted their investigation in order to derive a conclusions that would reach an outcome that was not at variance with a predetermined announced decision they had already made.

The UNHRC, with a disproportionate focus on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, having disregarded every single case of Palestinian acts of terrorism, human rights violations, and war crimes, had demonstrated itself to be unquestionably destructive to its integrity in the discharge of public duties.  The UNHRC has proven itself to be totally unreliable in the realistic assessment if applicable law and encouraging Arab Palestinians to violate both elements of Customary Law and International Human Rights Law.  If was go back a half century, the UN did not condemn the Arab Palestinians for the July 1965 attack when Fatah cell plants explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.  If we go back 45 years, the UN did not condemn the February 1970 bombing of SwissAir flight 330, bound for Tel Aviv, by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.  If we go back 40-to-45 years, we see that the UN did not condemn or hold tribunals for:

*– May 1972*: PFLP, part of the PLO, dispatches members of the Japanese Red Army to attack Lod Airport in Tel Aviv, killing 27 people.

– *Sep 1972*: Munich Massacre —11 Israeli athletes are murdered at the Munich Olympics by a group calling themselves “Black September,”said to be an arm of Fatah, operating under Arafat's direct command.

– *Mar 1973*: Palestinian terrorists take over Saudi embassy in Khartoum. The next day, two Americans, including United States ambassador to Sudan Cleo Noel, and a Belgian were shot and killed. James J. Welsh, an analyst for the National Security Agency from 1969 through 1974, charged Arafat with direct complicity in these murders.

– *Apr 1974*: 11 people are killed by Palestinian terrorists who attack apartment building in Kiryat Shmona.

– *May 1974*: PLO terrorists infiltrating from Lebanon hold children hostage in Ma'alot school. 26 people, 21 of them children, are killed.

– *Jun 1974*: Palestinian National Council adopts “Phased Plan,” which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state on any territory evacuated by Israel, to be used as a base of operations for destroying the whole of Israel. The PLO reaffirms its rejection of United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, which calls for a “just and lasting peace” and the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”

– *Nov 1974*: PLO takes responsibility for the PDFLP's Beit She'an murders in which 4 Israelis are killed.

– *Nov 1974*: Arafat, wearing a holster _(he had to leave his gun at the entrance)_, addresses the U.N. General Assembly.

– *Mar 1975*: Members of Fatah attack the Tel Aviv seafront and take hostages in the Savoy hotel. Three soldiers, three civilians and seven terrorists are killed.​
The list goes on and on; right up to the present day when the UN does not investigate the violations of customary and humanitarian laws the Arab Palestinians violated in connection with the lead-up and during the last Gaza conflict. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 24, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Does it change the truth of the reality?
> 
> ...


Drop in the bucket compared to Israel's violations.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 25, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> What is it you say again,    AD HOMINENS ARE NOT VALID REBUTTALS


When you address the content of what was said, it is not an ad hominem.


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 25, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

This is the umpteenth time your response has been --- a drop in the bucket.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I'm thinking that is anything but the truth or a valid comparison.  The idea that policy of selective enforcement against the Jewish People and the State of Israel in favor of the Arab Palestinians _(that lost a war to suppress Jewish self-determination under UN Guidance more than half a century ago)_ is simply a different form of 1939 anti-semitism and demonstrates by deed that much of the UN cannot be trusted; not then in 1948 and not now in 2015.  And certainly the Arab Palestinian cannot be trusted to act according under the rule of law; not as it was then and not as it is now.

Anyone who thinks that the open Arab Palestinian mentality HAS NOT CHANGED since the 1972 Olympic Massacre;  1982 in which Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris; the twin family murders in 1993/94 of Yitzhak Weinstock, _(whose family came from Los Angeles)_ was killed in a drive-by shooting --- and --- Nachshon Wachsman, _(whose family came from New York)_ was kidnapped and then murdered --- by HAMAS in both cases; the 2002 Palestinian bombing when a woman triggered a massive explosion in downtown Jerusalem killing one elderly Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and 16 and 12-year-old daughter or; Kristine A. Luken, was violently attacked by Palestinians and killed while hiking in a beautiful forested area west of Jerusalem on December 18, 2010; is right on track.  Nor can I see a change in mentality in the hostile Arab Palestinian in 2014 when 16 year old Naftali Frankel, a U.S. citizen, was one of three Israeli teenagers kidnapped and murdered while hitchhiking from a yeshiva in Gush Etzion.  NOR can we see a change --- when Rabbi Moshe Twersky (60), Aryeh Kupinsky (43), and Rabbi Kalman Zeev Levine (55)  were brutally murdered in a terrorist attack at Kehilat Yaakov Synagogue in Jerusalem during morning prayers.  The terrorists, who it was later revealed were associated with the People’s Front for the Liberation of Palestine, entered the Synagogue at 7am armed with knives, meat cleavers, axes, and guns, and began firing and slashing wildly at the individuals involved in prayers.  A British-Israeli citizen named Avraham Shmuel Goldberg (68) was also killed in the attack.

Whether we look at the Palestinian in the day-by-day frame, year-by-year frame of decade-by-decade frame, we see that the international community, and especially the UN Humanitarian activities, have chosen to support the brutality and murder _(a published policy of Jihad and armed struggle)_ of the Palestinian over the defensive measures of the Israel; criminalized supporting Security Council Resolutions 1373 (2001) and 1624 (2005).  When Arab Palestinian leaders knowing act, apply methods, and practice terrorism --- knowingly financing, planning and inciting terrorist acts --- but are left unchallenged by the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal Court or the Counter-Terrorism Committee of the Security Council --- and instead challenge Israel for defensing its sovereignty --- then we can see that the International Rule of Law is twisted and intimidated by these terrorists have coerced the process in order to achieve political objectives.

It will not be long before the backlash against the Arab Palestinian _(just another brand name for Islamic Terrorist)_ will build momentum and make the name of Arab Muslim synonymous with Islamic Extremist.  Just recently, Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir said Saudi Arabia welcomed any agreement that would guarantee the inability of Iran to possess nuclear weapons, explaining that Tehran supports terrorism and instability in the region.  However, HAMAS has a direct relationship to Iran (Tehran):

Hamas must keep a channel of dialogue open with Iran and Hezbollah in order to keep receiving funds from Tehran, they argue. Too dramatic an overture to Saudi Arabia could mean an emptying of the coffers; Hamas only managed to resume full salary payments to its workers this month, after a four-month hiatus, because Iran resumed its financial support.
_*SOURCE:*_ *Times of Israel --- Battle for Gaza* --- BY AVI ISSACHAROFF July 25, 2015​
Saudi Arabia sees that:

Iran supports terrorism and instability
Iran supports HAMAS
Iran provides funding to pay HAMAS employees
It does not take a Rhodes Scholar or a Graduate from Oxford to see the relationships, and the dependencies here.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 25, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Just because the Panel did not have it as part of its warrant and commission, does not change the facts.


Unfortunately, the "facts" the Panel considered, were only based on the Turkel Commissions' Report, which was nothing more than an Israeli hasbara propaganda piece.




RoccoR said:


> Most of the quasi-Investigations by the UN (directed specifically against Israel) are performed by Humanitarians activities and not either professional personnel with investigative experience or event experience in the specific realm under inquiry.


But in the case of the _*UNHRC-FFM*_, they did have on their Commission, experts in international and maritime law, backed up by many legal organizations contributing to the report.

_"The FFM was equipped with a large support team so that its own very *senior lawyers who are experienced in international criminal law were supplemented by experts in the law of the sea and international humanitarian law. *In addition it met with a number of non-governmental organizations, had assistance from law firms in three countries, and was thoroughly briefed on the situation in Gaza by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs."_​



RoccoR said:


> In the case of the Blockade, the UN Human Rights Commission that concluded the blockade to be illegal, did NOT use the standard law relative to International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea _(ie the San Remo Manual)_.


You are FULL OF SHIT!

_"55. It might be suggested that a belligerent in an armed conflict has a right to visit, inspect and control the destinations of neutral vessels on the high seas, irrespective of any declared blockade. Whilst there is some controversy on this issue, the *San Remo Manual* and a number of military manuals take the view that the right may only be exercised upon reasonable suspicion that a vessel is engaged in activities which support the enemy. The Mission takes the view that a right of interference with third States’ freedom of navigation should not lightly be presumed. 

56. Thus, if there is no lawful blockade, the only lawful basis for intercepting the vessel would be a reasonable suspicion that it: _
_• was making an effective contribution to the opposing forces’ war effort, such as by carrying weaponry or was otherwise closely integrated into the enemy war effort (belligerent right of capture); or 
• posed an imminent and overwhelming threat to Israel and there was no alternative but to use force to prevent it (self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter)."_​



RoccoR said:


> This is the principle difference between the outcome of the two independent investigation.


I just proved it wasn't.  The principle difference was the Palmer Commission, did not do any independent investigation.  It was nothing more than an hasbara hit piece. 



RoccoR said:


> In fact the UNHRC Investigation is a case in which there is reasonable grounds to assume the Commission intentionally corrupted their investigation in order to derive a conclusions that would reach an outcome that was not at variance with a predetermined announced decision they had already made.


No, there was no reasonable grounds to think that at all.  This is what you fuckers do all the time.  It's Israeli Propaganda 101.  Discredit the source.  But I will give you credit for going the extra mile in order to mask your ad hominiem by making up your own fact for discreditation.

I'm not interested in your following data dump...




RoccoR said:


> The UNHRC, with a disproportionate focus on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, having disregarded every single case of Palestinian acts of terrorism, human rights violations, and war crimes, had demonstrated itself to be unquestionably destructive to its integrity in the discharge of public duties.  The UNHRC has proven itself to be totally unreliable in the realistic assessment if applicable law and encouraging Arab Palestinians to violate both elements of Customary Law and International Human Rights Law.  If was go back a half century, the UN did not condemn the Arab Palestinians for the July 1965 attack when Fatah cell plants explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.  If we go back 45 years, the UN did not condemn the February 1970 bombing of SwissAir flight 330, bound for Tel Aviv, by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.  If we go back 40-to-45 years, we see that the UN did not condemn or hold tribunals for:
> 
> *– May 1972*: PFLP, part of the PLO, dispatches members of the Japanese Red Army to attack Lod Airport in Tel Aviv, killing 27 people.
> 
> ...


Maybe your efforts would be better served discussing the pros and cons of *"alien putty"?
*
Least Respectfully,
b

This ones for *Hollie*, in case she doubts anything I've said...


----------



## Roudy (Jul 25, 2015)

^^^^
Did anybody read what that ignorant big mouth just blabbered?  Not me.

He usually has a hissyfit when confronted with the wealth of accurate facts that Rocco brings to this board.


----------



## Hollie (Jul 25, 2015)

Roudy said:


> ^^^^
> Did anybody read what that ignorant big mouth just blubbered?  Not me.
> 
> He usually has a hissyfit when confronted with the wealth of accurate facts that Rocco brings to this board.


The little shortstop does tend to babble on in order to try and prop up his Islamic terrorist heroes. 

Ultimately, the blockade was both legal and effective at reducing the weapons and ammunition that shortstops's heroes use to attack Israel. Shorty does get incensed when Israel gets a big win as was the case with the silly flotilla charade.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 25, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> This is the umpteenth time your response has been --- a drop in the bucket.
> 
> ...


This is the umpteenth time your response has been --- a drop in the bucket.​
Your post listed 60 or so deaths over several years.

Israel has had better* days* than that. Too many of them.

My assessment is correct.

BTW, what is the rest of that blabber about?


----------



## RoccoR (Jul 25, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

Wow!  I think you made a series of mistakes here.



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Just because the Panel did not have it as part of its warrant and commission, does not change the facts.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Nonsense.  That is not the case at all.  The Palmer Panel reviewed all the available information at the time.  And nothing has com to light since the Palmer Panel Report that actually changes the facts.




Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the quasi-Investigations by the UN (directed specifically against Israel) are performed by Humanitarians activities and not either professional personnel with investigative experience or event experience in the specific realm under inquiry.
> ...


​*(COMMENT)*

All the members of the Palmer Panel held degrees in law.  And in fact, on of the members was a sitting Head of State.  The Panel understood quite well both the legal and the political ramifications of a flotillia that was attempting to cause an international political incident for propaganda purposes.




Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > In the case of the Blockade, the UN Human Rights Commission that concluded the blockade to be illegal, did NOT use the standard law relative to International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea _(ie the San Remo Manual)_.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This makes my point specifically and most dramatically; as these are the very paragraphs which I based comment upon.  The UNHRC specifically states that they understood the San Remo Manual position _(relative to International Law *Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea*, 12 June 1994 --- which by the way IS the International Humanitarian Law under the International Commission of the Red Cross for such purposes)_  that:  "98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked."  And the UNHRC simply did not want to apply that legal standard, which is the only legal stand that specifically addresses blockades being run by Merchant Shipping _(without regard to whether or not it is a third party --- but applies to any nation or party to the Treaty)_.



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > This is the principle difference between the outcome of the two independent investigation.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In fact you did not.  What you demonstrated it that the UNHRC will ignore standing International Law of the Sea applicable to Armed Conflict.  That is something that the UNHRC has no authority of legal stand to do.  There is nothing in the Charter for the UNHRC that permits any activity to the HRC that allows it to supersede either Customary or International Law to achieve its political agenda.



Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > In fact the UNHRC Investigation is a case in which there is reasonable grounds to assume the Commission intentionally corrupted their investigation in order to derive a conclusions that would reach an outcome that was not at variance with a predetermined announced decision they had already made.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is a case of "probable cause" --- wherein the apparent facts discovered through logical inquiry that would lead a reasonably intelligent and prudent person to believe that an accused agency (the UNHRC) has intentionally --- under the color of law and in the name of the UN, overwritten or reinterpreted Customary and International Law, which it had no right to do.  It is not an _ad hominem_ attack, it is a "direct accusation."  Remember:  "The definition of a crime *shall be strictly construed* and *shall not be extended* by analogy. In case of ambiguity, the definition shall be interpreted in favour of the person being investigated, prosecuted or convicted."  [Article 22(2) Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court --- Part III General principles of Criminal Law]  The UNHRC cannot imply that the Blockade is illegal if it follows the requirements outlined in the San Remo Manual and it cannot impose a NEW STANDARD "_upon "reasonable suspicion" that a vessel is engaged in activities which support the enemy" _when the San Remo standard is something else.  *The UNHRC cannot make new law.  *

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 25, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Wow!  I think you made a series of mistakes here.
> 
> ...


OK, Rocco, it is my turn to blow a little smoke on the Issue.

But what justifies a blockade in _non-international_ armed conflict (NIAC)?  The London Declaration does not justify such a blockade, because it only applies to “war”– war being understood at the time as armed conflict between two states.  Does the San Remo Manual justify it?  The Manual is not a picture of clarity concerning when its rules apply, but it does not seem to contemplate non-international sea conflicts.  Article 1 speaks of “the parties to an armed conflict at sea,”  which does not seem to include NIAC, unless perhaps a rebel group has a navy.  (Do any?)  Article 2 parallels the Martens Clause in the 1907 Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, which only applies to IAC.  Article 3 acknowledges the right of self-defense under Article 51 of the UN Charter, but — as Marko Milanovic has pointed out — that right is an exception to the prohibition on the use of force in Article 2(4), which only operates between states.  And numerous articles in the Manual refer specifically to “belligerent States” (see, for example, 10, 20, 34).

Opinio Juris Blog Archive Why Is Israel s Blockade of Gaza Legal Updated - Opinio Juris​
And, of course, we have not yet determined that this is an international conflict. I say it is not.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 26, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Nonsense.  That is not the case at all.  The Palmer Panel reviewed all the available information at the time.  And nothing has com to light since the Palmer Panel Report that actually changes the facts.


The Panel only reviewed evidence given to it from the two parties involved.

_"...the Panel did not see any exhibits or meet any witnesses, but has *based its findings on information provided by the two delegations in the dispute*."_​
That's far from a comprehensive review.



RoccoR said:


> All the members of the Palmer Panel held degrees in law.  And in fact, on of the members was a sitting Head of State.  The Panel understood quite well both the legal and the political ramifications of a flotillia that was attempting to cause an international political incident for propaganda purposes.


Some of the Panels members had a serious conflict of interest, like the former President of Columbia, Mr. Uribe.

_"There were surprised reactions to the appointment of Mr Uribe who is accused of responsibility for widespread human rights violations during his period of office as President of Columbia. More relevant here are his associations with Israel. *During his term of office Israel was Columbia’s top weapons supplier,  while the American Jewish Committee gave him its ‘Light Unto The Nations’ award in 2007.* This apparent conflict of interest is not addressed in the UN Panel’s report."_​
And none of the members were experts in international maritime law.




RoccoR said:


> This makes my point specifically and most dramatically; as these are the very paragraphs which I based comment upon.  The UNHRC specifically states that they understood the San Remo Manual position _(relative to International Law *Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea*, 12 June 1994 --- which by the way IS the International Humanitarian Law under the International Commission of the Red Cross for such purposes)_  that:  "98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked."  And the UNHRC simply did not want to apply that legal standard, which is the only legal stand that specifically addresses blockades being run by Merchant Shipping _(without regard to whether or not it is a third party --- but applies to any nation or party to the Treaty)_.


That part of the San Remo Manual doesn't apply.  The maritime ships were not breaching the illegal blockade.  They were stopped in international waters.




RoccoR said:


> In fact you did not.  What you demonstrated it that the UNHRC will ignore standing International Law of the Sea applicable to Armed Conflict.  That is something that the UNHRC has no authority of legal stand to do.  There is nothing in the Charter for the UNHRC that permits any activity to the HRC that allows it to supersede either Customary or International Law to achieve its political agenda.


Wrong.  I demonstrated the UNHRC reviewed all relative laws regarding this issue.  You said they didn't take into consideration the San Remo Manual and I proved they did.




RoccoR said:


> This is a case of "probable cause" --- wherein the apparent facts discovered through logical inquiry that would lead a reasonably intelligent and prudent person to believe that an accused agency (the UNHRC) has intentionally --- under the color of law and in the name of the UN, overwritten or reinterpreted Customary and International Law, which it had no right to do.  It is not an _ad hominem_ attack, it is a "direct accusation."  Remember:  "The definition of a crime *shall be strictly construed* and *shall not be extended* by analogy. In case of ambiguity, the definition shall be interpreted in favour of the person being investigated, prosecuted or convicted."  [Article 22(2) Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court --- Part III General principles of Criminal Law]  The UNHRC cannot imply that the Blockade is illegal if it follows the requirements outlined in the San Remo Manual and it cannot impose a NEW STANDARD "_upon "reasonable suspicion" that a vessel is engaged in activities which support the enemy" _when the San Remo standard is something else.  *The UNHRC cannot make new law.  *
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R


There was no probable cause.  The ships cargo had been inspected several times by state agencies and it was clear they were carrying nothing but humanitarian aid.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jul 26, 2015)

Roudy said:


> ^^^^
> Did anybody read what that ignorant big mouth just blabbered?  Not me.
> 
> He usually has a hissyfit when confronted with the wealth of accurate facts that Rocco brings to this board.


Maybe you two should get a room?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 26, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> ...The ships cargo had been inspected several times by state agencies and it was clear they were carrying nothing but humanitarian aid.


Doesn't matter.

Try to run a Naval Blockade... get the shit kicked out of you.

Simple.


----------



## Phoenall (Aug 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...








 What violations would they be then, how about detailing them so we can see which LIES you will be pedalling now.


----------



## Phoenall (Aug 1, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > What is it you say again,    AD HOMINENS ARE NOT VALID REBUTTALS
> ...







When YOU address the content of the links you post and see that they are nothing more than blood libels and outright lies then you might stop relying on NAZI PROPAGANDA as your source of anti Jewish reports.


----------



## Phoenall (Aug 1, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Just because the Panel did not have it as part of its warrant and commission, does not change the facts.
> ...







 Says who ?

 And lied about the facts so they could bolster their initial anti Jew report with their findings.

 While the FFM was nothing more than ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and BLOOD LIBEL

 Maybe you would be better occupied trying to plait shit


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 1, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> When YOU address the content of the links you post and see that they are nothing more than blood libels and outright lies then you might stop relying on NAZI PROPAGANDA as your source of anti Jewish reports.


When you can explain why the contents of the links are blood libels, only then can we determine if they are outright lies.


----------



## Phoenall (Aug 2, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > When YOU address the content of the links you post and see that they are nothing more than blood libels and outright lies then you might stop relying on NAZI PROPAGANDA as your source of anti Jewish reports.
> ...







 The source alone tells you that they are libels and lies. then the uncorroborated nature of the reports show they are libels and lies. Your inability to find another source for the lies and libels just reinforces their lack of any credibility. I give you your picture of a tennis ball sixed projectile speeding towards a Palestinian terrorist that the report claimed hit him in the back and left a small 9mm entry wound.. Still waiting for the proof of this projectile doing a 180


----------

