# concerns about the deficit



## L.K.Eder (Oct 31, 2020)

this is a placeholder thread for all the concerned citizens who will find their concerns about the deficit as soon as trump has left the building.


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## Oddball (Oct 31, 2020)

You assholes didn't give a flying fuck about the deb/deficit when Barry the Boiking was running the show, so spare us all your phaux concern now.


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## pknopp (Oct 31, 2020)

Oddball said:


> You assholes didn't give a flying fuck about the deb/deficit when Barry the Boiking was running the show, so spare us all your phaux concern now.



That's true. Democrats were never as concerned as the Conservatives pretended to be. Because they were wrong gives Conservatives the OK to be as wrong?


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## blackhawk (Oct 31, 2020)

When the President is from the party you support you don't care about debt or deficit it's only when they are not that you do this applies to both the right and left. There are some on both sides who care no matter which party controls the Presidency but they are the exception not the rule for most this is strictly partisan concern.


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## Gdjjr (Oct 31, 2020)

blackhawk said:


> When the President is from the party you support you don't care about debt or deficit it's only when they are not that you do this applies to both the right and left. There are some on both sides who care no matter which party controls the Presidency but they are the exception not the rule for most this is strictly partisan concern.


AMEN!


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## Darkwind (Oct 31, 2020)

pknopp said:


> Oddball said:
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> > You assholes didn't give a flying fuck about the deb/deficit when Barry the Boiking was running the show, so spare us all your phaux concern now.
> ...


Conservatives continue to be concerned about the debt/deficit and have spoken out against it during Trumps administration.

You equate the fact that we haven't been heard to not having voiced the complaint and that would be a wrong thing to do.


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## pknopp (Oct 31, 2020)

Darkwind said:


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 No one is speaking up over the debt. Trump has run the debt to record numbers and you'll vote again for that.


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## Oddball (Oct 31, 2020)

pknopp said:


> Oddball said:
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> > You assholes didn't give a flying fuck about the deb/deficit when Barry the Boiking was running the show, so spare us all your phaux concern now.
> ...


Right and wrong isn't the issue...Fact remains that none of them honestly care one wit about the debt/deficit....Their actions speak.

It's a fact that I've come to accept, and one of the numerous reasons that I quit supporting republicans over 20 years ago.


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## Darkwind (Oct 31, 2020)

pknopp said:


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All of us have been speaking up against the Debt.  The problem is, everyone is too busy playing Marx and dividing everyone into tribes so that they can win power in D. C. instead of talking about policy and why we should not be spending money we don't have.

It is ironic that Nancy Pelosi is actually doing us conservatives a solid in keeping Trump from spending another 2 trillion dollars we don't have.

The problem is, Trump has never met a spending bill he didn't like and win or lose, I feel that that money is going to be put out there.  How and where it will be spent is a real question for debate, but no one is having that debate right now, are they?  Just like they are not having the debate on how the last 8 trillion dollars was spent and who it went to.


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## pknopp (Oct 31, 2020)

Darkwind said:


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 I complain about the wars all the time but I realize it makes no difference.

That a small number complain doesn't mean much.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 31, 2020)

Concerns about the deficit are valid only when a Democrat is in the WH.


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## San Souci (Nov 8, 2020)

Darkwind said:


> pknopp said:
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How can one be heard with the Fake News Media?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2020)

pknopp said:


> Trump has run the debt to record numbers



Which Presidents haven't? You have a list?


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## pknopp (Nov 8, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> pknopp said:
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 Many didn't.


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## Stryder50 (Feb 8, 2021)

Yeah, Trump should have refused to sign off on the latest bloated Budget Congress sent him and let the Federal guv'mint shutdown, just before the elections.  That would have got the message through, maybe.

I'm too new to post a URL so chase down USDebtClock realtime (dot org I think) to get some numbers/data, especially making use of their "time machine" function to see the track over the past couple of decades or so ...


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## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 8, 2021)

pknopp said:


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How many?


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## Stryder50 (Feb 8, 2021)

In recent decades, I think Clinton may have had a year or two of "surplus" but done at expense of a cut military budget which smacked us when Desert Shield/Desert Storm hit.


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## AFrench2 (Feb 24, 2021)

Like clockwork.


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## Stryder50 (Feb 25, 2021)

Stryder50 said:


> Yeah, Trump should have refused to sign off on the latest bloated Budget Congress sent him and let the Federal guv'mint shutdown, just before the elections.  That would have got the message through, maybe.
> 
> I'm too new to post a URL so chase down USDebtClock realtime (dot org I think) to get some numbers/data, especially making use of their "time machine" function to see the track over the past couple of decades or so ...


It's now a couple weeks and many posts later, so ...


			https://www.usdebtclock.org/
		


Note that there's a tab at the upper right for their "time machine" fuction that brings up the page and data for different years going back a few decades.


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## AFrench2 (Mar 4, 2021)

Keep this topic bumped.


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## Sunsettommy (Mar 4, 2021)

pknopp said:


> Darkwind said:
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It was the *CONGRESS* who made and passed the bills, Trump has three choices in dealing with congressionally passed legislation.


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## Jets (Mar 4, 2021)

News flash: Deficits Don’t Matter unless it’s the other party doing the spending...


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## pknopp (Mar 4, 2021)

Sunsettommy said:


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 Always with the excuses. Even at that Trump's first two years were all GOP.

 Trump signed off on it all.


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## Sunsettommy (Mar 5, 2021)

pknopp said:


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Sigh,

I stated the facts, didn't excuse anyone. Heck I even showed that Trump had the opportunity to veto it, one of three possible actions.



> Trump has three choices in dealing with congressionally passed legislation.



Now that Democrats CURRENTLY have all three branches, have they greatly changed the massive congressionally inspired overspending habit?

Snicker......


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## pknopp (Mar 5, 2021)

Sunsettommy said:


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 Of course not. You expected them to do what Trump wouldn't do?

 Anything you ignore from your politicians will only get worse with the next.


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## Sunsettommy (Mar 5, 2021)

pknopp said:


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I haven't ignored the fact that neither party have any interest in being fiscally rational or responsible.

It is one of the reasons why I am a free thinking Independent.

I have no "politicians" favorite list.


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## AFrench2 (Mar 11, 2021)

up


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## Likkmee (Mar 11, 2021)

Post WW3, debt will not exist.
Relax man. Its all good


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## badbob85037 (Apr 29, 2021)

L.K.Eder said:


> this is a placeholder thread for all the concerned citizens who will find their concerns about the deficit as soon as trump has left the building.


There is no  deficit  when democRats are running thing. Only free stuff on your dime.


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## Leviticus (Jun 27, 2021)

Oddball said:


> You assholes didn't give a flying fuck about the deb/deficit when Barry the Boiking was running the show, so spare us all your phaux concern now.


That's because both sides do the same thing Democrats don't really care about the deficit unless a republican is president and Republicans don't give a shit about it until a Democrat takes over.

But as an independent does it take side was either retarded party, I would like to point out that Obama had cut the deficit in half compared to what it was under Bush during the recession.  It have started going up at the end of his presidency but I never got anywhere near as high as it was under Bush or Trump once it started going back down.

I would also like to point out that the Democrats don't really care about the deficit because they have a economic view that deficits are not inherently bad.  they believe that spending money on things like infrastructure and other things that prove the country are worth going into debt.

Republicans on the other hand, plane that the deficit is bad in that the economy should run out of a balance without any debt ever and then they turn around cut taxes while boosting spending on things they like 5 billions of dollars and thus create a larger.

it's been Republicans over the years that have added more to the debt than anyone else Reagan did this I have to both bushes and Trump.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 27, 2021)

Leviticus said:


> I would like to point out that Obama had cut the deficit in half compared to what it was under Bush during the recession.



Liar.


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## Staidhup (Jun 29, 2021)

Don’t worry the clowns all tell us deficits will be cured when taxes are raised. Where have you heard that before?


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## toobfreak (Jun 29, 2021)

L.K.Eder said:


> this is a placeholder thread for all the concerned citizens who will find their concerns about the deficit as soon as trump has left the building.



Funny, LK, whatever concerns folks had for the deficit under Trump have all been totally blown out of the water by Biddum's spending.

He's out to show Obammy he can blow trillions in a wink, too.


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## L.K.Eder (Jun 29, 2021)

toobfreak said:


> L.K.Eder said:
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> > this is a placeholder thread for all the concerned citizens who will find their concerns about the deficit as soon as trump has left the building.
> ...


of course. this thread is for muppets like you.


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## toobfreak (Jun 29, 2021)

L.K.Eder said:


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So you have no problem with Biddum spending 6 trillion dollars because he's a democrat?


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## skews13 (Jul 25, 2021)

Oddball said:


> ou assholes didn't give a flying fuck about the deb/deficit when Barry the Boiking was running the show, so spare us all your phaux concern now.



The debt was less than $1 trillion before Reagans tax cuts and military spending quadrupled it. We had a budget surplus in 2000, with the debt on its way to be paid down, thanks to Bill Clintons iniatives, before W. immediately created another $1 trillion deficit, and VP Dick Cheney said that deficits didn't matter. Of which after 8 years of more failed fiscal conservatism resulted in the worst economic recession since the Great Depression. At which time Obama's iniatives shrank the deficit to $400 billion, created 78 straight months of job growth, and a 142% increase in the stock market, before the biggest criminal failure ever to be elected couldn't contain a global pandemic that killed over 600,000 Americans on his watch, creating the worst unemployment since the Great Depression.

But conservatives are very fucking stupid, so the country can count on them to sink America even further when they get power back again. Which given the population change, and the advent of communications technology, will be their last hurrah, before aging millenials, and the next generation put them out of their misery, and the rest of the worlds once and for all.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 25, 2021)

skews13 said:


> We had a budget surplus in 2000, with the debt on its way to be paid down, thanks to Bill Clintons iniatives



Thanks to the Internet Bubble. And Gingrich holding the line on spending.

Which of his "initiatives" were involved?


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## Oddball (Jul 25, 2021)

skews13 said:


> The debt was less than $1 trillion before Reagans tax cuts and military spending quadrupled it. We had a budget surplus in 2000, with the debt on its way to be paid down, thanks to Bill Clintons iniatives, before W. immediately created another $1 trillion deficit, and VP Dick Cheney said that deficits didn't matter. Of which after 8 years of more failed fiscal conservatism resulted in the worst economic recession since the Great Depression. At which time Obama's iniatives shrank the deficit to $400 billion, created 78 straight months of job growth, and a 142% increase in the stock market, before the biggest criminal failure ever to be elected couldn't contain a global pandemic that killed over 600,000 Americans on his watch, creating the worst unemployment since the Great Depression.
> 
> But conservatives are very fucking stupid, so the country can count on them to sink America even further when they get power back again. Which given the population change, and the advent of communications technology, will be their last hurrah, before aging millenials, and the next generation put them out of their misery, and the rest of the worlds once and for all.


Now back to blaming Reagan....JFC.....Though he did in fact get the ball rolling, not a one of your team's hacks has done one fucking thing to stop the debt snowball.

There was no "balanced budget" in 1998, nor was there any surplus....It was only *projected* to come into balance -and possibly go into surplus- in 2002, just like Ross Perot had already told everyone was going to happen back in 1992.

That your dear Boiking marginallyly reduced the amount of deficit doesn't mean that there still wasn't one...He still piled $10 trillion onto the debt....He also presided over the Fed pumping over $4 trillion in fake value into Wall Street.

There's not a goddamn dime's worth of difference between you and the neocon Bushbots....Not one thin dime.


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## Friends (Aug 15, 2022)

The national debt only became a problem with the Republican delusion that it is always a good idea to cut taxes for the rich and never a good idea to raise them.


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## Friends (Aug 15, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Thanks to the Internet Bubble. And Gingrich holding the line on spending.
> 
> Which of his "initiatives" were involved?


Bill Clinton raised the top tax rate, and reduced military spending.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 15, 2022)

Friends said:


> Bill Clinton raised the top tax rate, and reduced military spending.



He raised rates in 1993.

The economy (and government revenues) didn't really take off until Gingrich got him to cut capital gains taxes.


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## Stryder50 (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> Bill Clinton raised the top tax rate, and reduced military spending.


The "reduced military spending" was in form of reduced replacement of old equipment along with reduced spending on spare parts, ammunition stocks, routine maintenance~repair~refit, some cuts in pay(promotions) and benefits, etc.

Caused havoc a few years later when ramping up for "War on Terror" post 9/11-2001, meant a lot of catch-up that required more than would have been had status quo been sustained, and also cost more than steady pace would have.  To paraphrase, each dollar he saved cost about two dollars when 'make up for it' time came.


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## Friends (Aug 16, 2022)

The national debt only became a problem with the Republican delusion that it is always a good idea to cut taxes for the rich and never a good idea to raise them.

1980 was President Carter's last year in office. The top tax rate was 70%. The national debt was $908 billion. President Reagan reduced the top tax rate to 28%. His last year in office was 1988. That year the national debt grew to $2,602 billion. President Clinton raised the top tax rate slightly, but it never reached 70%. Presidents Bush II and Trump cut the top tax rate, while raising spending for a military that could not defeat the Taliban in twenty years. During the eight years Bush II was president the national debt rose from $5,807 billion to $10,025. During the Trump years the national debt rose to $27,748.









						U.S. National Debt by Year
					

The U.S. national debt was over $29 trillion in 2021. In 1930, it was just $16 billion. The biggest impacts have been defense spending, recessions, and the pandemic.




					www.thebalance.com
				




https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/02inpetr.pdf 

What do we have to show for all that debt? Nothing really, but more millionaires and billionaires, and a military that could not defeat the Taliban in twenty years. Most Americans have not benefited economically.


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## Stryder50 (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> The national debt only became a problem with the Republican delusion that it is always a good idea to cut taxes for the rich and never a good idea to raise them.
> 
> 1980 was President Carter's last year in office. The top tax rate was 70%. The national debt was $908 billion. President Reagan reduced the top tax rate to 28%. His last year in office was 1988. That year the national debt grew to $2,602 billion. President Clinton raised the top tax rate slightly, but it never reached 70%. Presidents Bush II and Trump cut the top tax rate, while raising spending for a military that could not defeat the Taliban in twenty years. During the eight years Bush II was president the national debt rose from $5,807 billion to $10,025. During the Trump years the national debt rose to $27,748.
> 
> ...


National Debt has been a concern since our Nation's founding.  Many Founders spoke against having Deficit and Debt as a Federal policy and were for financial solvency. 

The delusion is that concern is only a Republican thing and that the solution is to tax the "rich"* more. * One needs to define "Rich" to give this tangent and delusion any hint of credibility.

One problem with your link, and many others similar, is that they don't factor in inflation or adjust the numbers accordingly.  And percent of GDP is also inaccurate since the GDP varies based upon the economy.

Still, such do provide a rough gauge and the chart in your link seems to match others.

On Debt to GDP Ratio, we see a rather steady and low rate of increase  from post World War Two up until about 2009, Obama's first year in office, where it jumps 14 points from 2008 at 68% to 2009 at 82%.  And quite a few healthy leaps the next few years as well.  In fact, Obama's eight years in office saw the Debt nearly doubled from what it was when he entered.

It's a common delusion of the loonie Left to think that the "Military" ("Defense/Wars") is the biggest ticket item, but in recent decades both Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid have usually been larger individually, and more than double when combined. 

Another useful source for numbers and data is this one;


			https://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
		

Which includes the "Debt Clock Time Machine" tab in upper right which offers figures in increments going back a few decades.

As for your snarks about our military and defeating the Taliban, a few things to consider;

1) No matter how good one's military is in equipment and personnel, if not operating towards clearly defined goals and realistically achievable conditions for victory, it ain't going to get there.

2) The Taliban are;
A) A product of the Pakistani equivalent to our CIA/NSA known as the ISI.  Paki ISI created, funds, trains, supplies, and supports the Taliban.
B) to defeat the Taliban means we'd have to make war on Pakistan and remove the factions within the ISI that do "A)" above.

3) Taliban is another of the many faces of Islamic Jihad, so in the even larger sense there is the conflict with a philosophy, ideology, religion, and culture that produces Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Etc. 
So far, the USA and West have not wanted to expand the "War" to this degree, which is what it would take to "Win".


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## Friends (Aug 16, 2022)

Stryder50 said:


> On Debt to GDP Ratio, we see a rather steady and low rate of increase  from post World War Two up until about 2009,


The Second World War ended in 1945. Then the national debt as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) was 114%. During President Carter's last year in office, in 1980, this had declined to 32%. It declined under Republican and Democrat Presidents, It declined _during_ the wars in Korea and Vietnam. The top tax rate never got below 70% and was as high as 94% in 1945. 

President Reagan reduced the top tax rate to 28%, and increased military spending substantially. This increase was unnecessary because the United States was at peace and the Soviet Union was collapsing from within. Because of Reagan's tax cuts for the rich, the national debt as a percentage of GDP rose to 50%.









						U.S. National Debt by Year
					

The U.S. national debt was over $29 trillion in 2021. In 1930, it was just $16 billion. The biggest impacts have been defense spending, recessions, and the pandemic.




					www.thebalance.com
				






			https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/02inpetr.pdf
		


During President Obama's eight years in office, from 2009 to 2016, the national debt as a percentage of GDP grew from 82% to 105%. During this time Obama was dealing with the deepest recession since the 1930's, a recession that began when George W. Bush was president.

Nevertheless, the debt grew quite a bid more under Trump than Obama.





Obama's big mistake was in not hiking the top tax rate soon after his inauguration. His approval rate was 69%. 









						Presidential Approval Ratings -- Barack Obama
					

Do you approve or disapprove of the way Barack Obama is handling his job as president?




					news.gallup.com
				





That was the time for Obama to do some heavy lifting. For years public opinion surveys have indicated support for a more progressive tax system. Higher taxes for the rich mean lower deficits, like they did from 1945 to 1980. 



			poll + taxes + rich - Google Search


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> The Second World War ended in 1945. Then the national debt as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) was 114%. During President Carter's last year in office, in 1980, this had declined to 32%. It declined under Republican and Democrat Presidents, It declined _during_ the wars in Korea and Vietnam. The top tax rate never got below 70% and was as high as 94% in 1945.
> 
> President Reagan reduced the top tax rate to 28%, and increased military spending substantially. This increase was unnecessary because the United States was at peace and the Soviet Union was collapsing from within. Because of Reagan's tax cuts for the rich, the national debt as a percentage of GDP rose to 50%.
> 
> ...



*President Reagan reduced the top tax rate to 28%, and increased military spending substantially.*

All by himself?

*This increase was unnecessary because the United States was at peace and the Soviet Union was collapsing from within*

Are you still sad that the Soviet Union collapsed?
*
During President Obama's eight years in office, from 2009 to 2016, the national debt as a percentage of GDP grew from 82% to 105%. During this time Obama was dealing with the deepest recession since the 1930's, *

You mean the recession that ended in June 2009?


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## Friends (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> The Second World War ended in 1945. Then the national debt as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) was 114%. During President Carter's last year in office, in 1980, this had declined to 32%. It declined under Republican and Democrat Presidents, It declined _during_ the wars in Korea and Vietnam. The top tax rate never got below 70% and was as high as 94% in 1945.
> 
> President Reagan reduced the top tax rate to 28%, and increased military spending substantially. This increase was unnecessary because the United States was at peace and the Soviet Union was collapsing from within. Because of Reagan's tax cuts for the rich, the national debt as a percentage of GDP rose to 50%.
> 
> ...





Toddsterpatriot said:


> *President Reagan reduced the top tax rate to 28%, and increased military spending substantially.*
> 
> All by himself?
> 
> ...


Regardless of what the Constitution says, the system has evolved to the extend that the President has the leading role in taxing and spending. The Presidential administration sends Congress a budget. Congress adds and subtracts, and returns the budget to the president who can sign or veto it. During the campaign of 1980 Reagan made it clear that he intended to cut taxes and raise military spending, and that is what he did. Everyone in Congress who voted to cut taxes while raising military spending shares responsibility for the rise in the national debt, and the rise in national debt per gross domestic product (GDP) that happened during the Reagan administration, but Reagan is mainly responsible, because it was his initial proposal. During the Reagan administration George Will, a Republican columnist, said that if every Reagan has been approved in its entirety, the increase in the national debt under Reagan would only be 10% less than it was. 

When I think of what has followed the fall of the Soviet Union I am not pleased with the results. I vastly prefer Mikhail Gorbachev to Vladimir Putin. Soviet leaders, including Nikita Khrushchev, expressed sanity and realism about the danger of nuclear war that I do not detect in Putin. During the 1990's the standard of living of about 80% of Russians declined, often to precipitous degrees. Many pensioners died because the new government was unable to pay their pensions.

That is what led to the rise of Putin. Because I admire Edmund Burke, I dislike abrupt political changes. Consequently I sort of do regret the fall of the Soviet Union. For the same reason, I regret the rise of the Soviet Union. If the Bolshevik takeover had not happened in 1917, the Provisional Government under Alexander Kerensky would have evolved into a representative democracy. Because it would have continued to fight Germany, the Germans would not have been able to move forces to the Western Front. Germany would have lost World War I earlier.

I even regret the fall of the Romanov Dynasty. If Czar Nicholas II had had the sense not to mobilize, Germany would not have declared war on Russia. What became World War I would have been localized in the Balkan Peninsula. Russia's defeat in the War with Japan in 1905 had caused Czar Nicholas II to be reduced from an absolute monarch to a constitutional monarch who shared power with a democratically elected Duma. Without World War I Russia would have still became a representative democracy, only with a figurehead monarch.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> Regardless of what the Constitution says, the system has evolved to the extend that the President has the leading role in taxing and spending. The Presidential administration sends Congress a budget. Congress adds and subtracts, and returns the budget to the president who can sign or veto it. During the campaign of 1980 Reagan made it clear that he intended to cut taxes and raise military spending, and that is what he did. Everyone in Congress who voted to cut taxes while raising military spending shares responsibility for the rise in the national debt, and the rise in national debt per gross domestic product (GDP) that happened during the Reagan administration, but Reagan is mainly responsible, because it was his initial proposal. During the Reagan administration George Will, a Republican columnist, said that if every Reagan has been approved in its entirety, the increase in the national debt under Reagan would only be 10% less than it was.
> 
> When I think of what has followed the fall of the Soviet Union I am not pleased with the results. I vastly prefer Mikhail Gorbachev to Vladimir Putin. Soviet leaders, including Nikita Khrushchev expressed sanity and realism about the danger of nuclear war that I do not detect in Putin. During the 1990's the standard of living of about 80% of Russians declined, often to precipitous degrees. Many pensioners died because the new government was unable to pay their pensions.
> 
> ...



_Regardless of what the Constitution says, the system has evolved to the extend that the President has the leading role in taxing and spending. The Presidential administration sends Congress a budget. Congress adds and subtracts, and returns the budget to the president_

Adds subtracts and, finally, passes it by majority vote. So, you could say, no, not by himself.

_During the campaign of 1980 Reagan made it clear that he intended to cut taxes and raise military spending, and that is what he did. _

Yeah, just two of the things that made him so awesome.

_When I think of what has followed the fall of the Soviet Union I am not pleased with the results._

No kidding. All those enslaved countries suddenly freed......just awful!

_I vastly prefer Mikhail Gorbachev to Vladimir Putin. _

Russian dictators suck. 

_During the 1990's the standard of living of about 80% of Russians declined, often to precipitous degrees. Many pensioners died because the new government was unable to pay their pensions._

Yeah, the commies are best at fucking over their own people.


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## Friends (Aug 16, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _During the campaign of 1980 Reagan made it clear that he intended to cut taxes and raise military spending, and that is what he did. _
> 
> Yeah, just two of the things that made him so awesome.


Republicans used to value balanced budgets. What happened to that?


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## Friends (Aug 16, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _During the 1990's the standard of living of about 80% of Russians declined, often to precipitous degrees. Many pensioners died because the new government was unable to pay their pensions._
> 
> Yeah, the commies are best at fucking over their own people.


The Soviet Union fell in December 25, 1991. The economic declined happened afterwards.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> Republicans used to value balanced budgets. What happened to that?



Yeah, after Gingrich, they kind of lost interest.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> The Soviet Union fell in December 25, 1991. The economic declined happened afterwards.



Their economy sucked well before they collapsed.
It was kind of the reason why they collapsed.
Communism doesn't work.


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## Friends (Aug 16, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Their economy sucked well before they collapsed.
> It was kind of the reason why they collapsed.
> Communism doesn't work.


I have already said that I regret the rise and the existence of the Soviet government. Nevertheless, the Soviet government carried Russia from semi feudalism to the space age while doing most of the fighting and dying to defeat Nazi Germany. It is not clear to me that a less tyrannical government could have industrialized rapidly enough to produce the weapons that defeated Germany.

The weakness of the Soviet economy was in producing consumer goods. Everyone agrees in what is a good tank or military rifle. Consumer tastes are fickle and unpredictable. They are best satisfied by many companies competing with each other.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2022)

Friends said:


> Nevertheless, the Soviet government carried Russia from semi feudalism to the space age while doing most of the fighting and dying to defeat Nazi Germany.



And they only murdered 20 million (more?) of their own people to do it.


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## Friends (Aug 17, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And they only murdered 20 million (more?) of their own people to do it.


What you say is true.

The only conceivable justification for the Soviet government is that it repelled the German invasion. The Nazis did not intend to exterminate the Slavs as directly and immediately as they exterminated the Jews. They intended to treat the Slavs harshly enough that they would gradually die off, so that they could be replaced by German settlers.


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