# Confederate Flag:  Symbol of ?



## jwoodie

Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.    

I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.


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## techieny

a failed past.


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## JWBooth

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.


Could you be specific about which Confederate flag you are referring to?


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## jwoodie

The one on the roof of "General Lee" (Confederate battle flag?).


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## JWBooth

jwoodie said:


> The one on the roof of "General Lee" (Confederate battle flag?).


The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Got it.


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## konradv

JWBooth said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The one on the roof of "General Lee" (Confederate battle flag?).
> 
> 
> 
> The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Got it.
Click to expand...


The General Lee had a rectangular flag, which was the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee.  The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, while of the same design, was square.

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## uscitizen

No wonder the south lost, they could not even agree on a flag.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

Who cares?


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## regent

It is one of the ironies of this country that some have taken the confederate flat that might have been symbolic of the bravery of all Americans North and South and made it into a hate symbol.


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## oldfart

The "Stars and Bars" has been used prominently at KKK rallies and segregationist political events and demonstrations to this day.  To southern whites  it is the "Flag of Resistance" defying not only blacks but also northerners.  Check the video archives of any southern TV station and this becomes obvious.  This is still the meaning most connected to it by southern whites today.


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## oldfart

JWBooth said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The one on the roof of "General Lee" (Confederate battle flag?).
> 
> 
> 
> The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Got it.
Click to expand...


Classy.  



			
				JWBooth message said:
			
		

> Hi, you have received -179 reputation points from JWBooth.
> Reputation was given for this post.
> 
> Comment:
> Now that you have proved you don\'t know shit...
> 
> Regards,
> JWBooth




BTW where do you get your sheets laundered?


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## High_Gravity

techieny said:


> a failed past.



Yup.


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## midcan5

In fairness our boys had and loved the 'General Lee,'  it had no connection to anything but two good old boys and one Daisy Mae like woman. But I agree with Oldfart above. Symbols 
attain power through use and the use of that flag today is inappropriate. 

'Gone With the Myths' By Edward Ball  [link below]

*"In other words, the only state right the Confederate founders were interested in was the rich man&#8217;s &#8220;right&#8221; to own slaves. *

It&#8217;s peculiar, because &#8220;states&#8217; rights&#8221; has become a popular refrain in Republican circles lately. Last year Gov. Rick Perry of Texas wondered aloud whether secession was his state&#8217;s right in the aftermath of laws out of Congress that he disliked. 

In part because of this renewed rhetoric, in the coming remembrances we will likely hear more from folks who cling to the whitewash explanation for secession and the Civil War. But you have only to look at the honest words of the secessionists to see why all those men put on uniforms. " http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/opinion/19Ball.html


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## Missourian

It is very difficult to put into words that a non-southerner would understand.

The closest thing you could use as reference is if have pride in your state.

Southerners are proud of their heritage.

Slavery was wrong,  we all understand that,  but it was the norm of the day.

Do you shun the American Flag over the genocide of the American Indians?  Or do have pride in your country despite it's shortcomings.


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## Lonestar_logic

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



Being raised in the South (Texas) I see just as many blacks flying the Confederate battle flag as whites. 

Many blacks fought for the Confederacy.


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## rightwinger




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## Missourian

rightwinger said:


>








So what's your point?


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## High_Gravity

rightwinger said:


>



*XXXXXX-Meister*


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## oldfart

Missourian said:


> It is very difficult to put into words that a non-southerner would understand.
> 
> The closest thing you could use as reference is if have pride in your state.
> 
> Southerners are proud of their heritage.
> 
> Slavery was wrong,  we all understand that,  but it was the norm of the day.
> 
> Do you shun the American Flag over the genocide of the American Indians?  Or do have pride in your country despite it's shortcomings.






			
				Missourian said:
			
		

> Hi, you have received -444 reputation points from Missourian.
> Reputation was given for this post.
> 
> Comment:
> .
> 
> Regards,
> Missourian



First I believe that Mississippi where I have lived most of my adult life, is about culturally southern as you can get.  So try again carpetbagger!  At least Missouri had the good sense to not succeed from the Union in 1861.  Learn your own state history and find out where others are from before you start making assumptions about their residence and culture.  

My attitudes toward our First Nations is that I have been guests in their homes, as they have been in mine, and their patriotism is as great as any group in America and obviously far greater than yours.  If you ever attend a dance competition, as what the qualifications are to perform a flag dance.  

If slavery was wrong, why do you cling to its symbols of hatred, bigotry, and repression?  Maybe it comes with playing the bully.  Neg rep me all you want; I have a life outside of this board and frankly don't care what my rep numbers are.  It's rather pathetic that you think I will be "hurt" by your childish action.


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## Lonestar_logic

Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. *No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.*


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## sakinago

oldfart said:


> The "Stars and Bars" has been used prominently at KKK rallies and segregationist political events and demonstrations to this day.  To southern whites  it is the "Flag of Resistance" defying not only blacks but also northerners.  Check the video archives of any southern TV station and this becomes obvious.  This is still the meaning most connected to it by southern whites today.



I grew up in Texas, I now live in the suburbs of philly. I never saw the KKK in my 11 years in Texas, or heard one racist comment. In between Texas and PA I lived in upstate New York, where I heard my first black joke and many others. Now, 30 mins away from philly, I kid you not there is a loud and proud KKK clan of about 50 members. So from my perspective the north is more racist than the south. I also see way too many confederate flags up here, its ridiculous. My point is I think its all relative to where you live. Im sure there are racist parts of Texas, I just havnt seen them, In the burbs of philly I know of 2 towns that have a KKK chapter, so the north isnt as innocent as everyone thinks, nor is 90% of the south like the movie deliverance. 

As to what the flag means, for most people at least, is a symbol that the southern way of life is better than the northen way of life. After all, those damn yanks are always in a hurry off to nowhere.


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## oldfart

sakinago said:


> I grew up in Texas, I now live in the suburbs of philly. I never saw the KKK in my 11 years in Texas, or heard one racist comment.... Im sure there are racist parts of Texas, I just havnt seen them,



My brother has lived in East Texas (Tyler) for over 50 years and his three sons grew up in Texas.  One teaches history in Tyler, a second works and lives in Tyler, and the third lives in Houston.  You are correct that Texas contains a lot of different regions and cultures.  East Texas is clearly part of the South.  



sakinago said:


> In the burbs of philly I know of 2 towns that have a KKK chapter, so the north isnt as innocent as everyone thinks, nor is 90% of the south like the movie deliverance.


Yep, there is a lot of racism in the North too.  Like hating Jews, Catholics, and gays, anybody can join in.  But if you come by, I'll be happy to show you parts of the South that are still just like Deliverance.  



sakinago said:


> As to what the flag means, for most people at least, is a symbol that the southern way of life is better than the northen way of life. After all, those damn yanks are always in a hurry off to nowhere.



We must not hang out in the same kind of bars.  I think you got the state department of tourism schtick.


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## William Joyce

Truth is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of white resistance, no matter how much its typical defender denies any racial connotation.  "Heritage" and "regional pride" are kinda crappy excuses...  who's proud of a latitude?  

That said, why can't whites show a little resistance?  Lord knows nobody gets huffy about the Puerto Rican flag, the Israeli flag, etc.


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## Missourian

oldfart said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is very difficult to put into words that a non-southerner would understand.
> 
> The closest thing you could use as reference is if have pride in your state.
> 
> Southerners are proud of their heritage.
> 
> Slavery was wrong,  we all understand that,  but it was the norm of the day.
> 
> Do you shun the American Flag over the genocide of the American Indians?  Or do have pride in your country despite it's shortcomings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, you have received -444 reputation points from Missourian.
> Reputation was given for this post.
> 
> Comment:
> .
> 
> Regards,
> Missourian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First I believe that Mississippi where I have lived most of my adult life, is about culturally southern as you can get.  So try again carpetbagger!  At least Missouri had the good sense to not succeed from the Union in 1861.  Learn your own state history and find out where others are from before you start making assumptions about their residence and culture.
> 
> My attitudes toward our First Nations is that I have been guests in their homes, as they have been in mine, and their patriotism is as great as any group in America and obviously far greater than yours.  If you ever attend a dance competition, as what the qualifications are to perform a flag dance.
> 
> If slavery was wrong, why do you cling to its symbols of hatred, bigotry, and repression?  Maybe it comes with playing the bully.  Neg rep me all you want; I have a life outside of this board and frankly don't care what my rep numbers are.  It's rather pathetic that you think I will be "hurt" by your childish action.
Click to expand...


Firstly,  you are butthurt,  crying and whining about neg rep.

Please,  dry up,  it's unseemly.

Secondly,  I know my states history...you do not.

Missouri DID succeed from the Union after General Nathaniel Lyon illegally captured Jefferson City and ousted the duly elected government of the state.


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## konradv

Lonestar_logic said:


> Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. *No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.*



So is neg repping.  I know, because I got called on it for negging someone who posted a personal attack.  I guess you're just supposed to report them.


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## emilynghiem

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



This is a well-stated observation, thank you for sharing this.

I think as more people are healed of the pain and suffering that slavery invokes, we won't see as much reactionism against what these same images mean to others historically.

To some, even Hitler was a hero who saved their country from mobs of anarchy and crime in the streets, and at least brought order by govt force although at an unjustifiable price.

I would love if all people could be so healed we could look at things objectively, and even laugh
at jokes together without taking offense at political incorrectness.
When I look at silly shows like Tosh.o some people are able to laugh at things without apology!

If people aren't healed, then such comedy seems as mockery and insulting to people's pain.

But when people are truly healed, then we won't have negative emotions attached to these images or ideas in our minds, so we will be more open to letting people have their own memories and not feel we have to compete or prove anything.

P.S. I take it from your msg you are one such person who doesn't have attachments either way, so you can see both sides and put them both in perspective. That is how I would want all people to be able to do someday. Until then, it means we still have some issues to resolve and heal, so that is good to be reminded so we keep working on that and don't deny it.


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## Missourian

William Joyce said:


> Truth is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of white resistance, no matter how much its typical defender denies any racial connotation.  "Heritage" and "regional pride" are kinda crappy excuses...  who's proud of a latitude?
> 
> That said, why can't whites show a little resistance?  Lord knows nobody gets huffy about the Puerto Rican flag, the Israeli flag, etc.




Here we disagree William.

What exactly are whites resisting?


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## Missourian

konradv said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. *No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So is neg repping.  I know, because I got called on it for negging someone who posted a personal attack.  I guess you're just supposed to report them.
Click to expand...


That's why I negged Oldfart,  his personal attack of "BTW where do you get your sheets laundered?".  If it is against the rules,  I apologize.


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## emilynghiem

Missourian said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is very difficult to put into words that a non-southerner would understand.
> 
> The closest thing you could use as reference is if have pride in your state.
> 
> Southerners are proud of their heritage.
> 
> Slavery was wrong,  we all understand that,  but it was the norm of the day.
> 
> Do you shun the American Flag over the genocide of the American Indians?  Or do have pride in your country despite it's shortcomings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, you have received -444 reputation points from Missourian.
> Reputation was given for this post.
> 
> Comment:
> .
> 
> Regards,
> Missourian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First I believe that Mississippi where I have lived most of my adult life, is about culturally southern as you can get.  So try again carpetbagger!  At least Missouri had the good sense to not succeed from the Union in 1861.  Learn your own state history and find out where others are from before you start making assumptions about their residence and culture.
> 
> My attitudes toward our First Nations is that I have been guests in their homes, as they have been in mine, and their patriotism is as great as any group in America and obviously far greater than yours.  If you ever attend a dance competition, as what the qualifications are to perform a flag dance.
> 
> If slavery was wrong, why do you cling to its symbols of hatred, bigotry, and repression?  Maybe it comes with playing the bully.  Neg rep me all you want; I have a life outside of this board and frankly don't care what my rep numbers are.  It's rather pathetic that you think I will be "hurt" by your childish action.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Firstly,  you are butthurt,  crying and whining about neg rep.
> 
> Please,  dry up,  it's unseemly.
> 
> Secondly,  I know my states history...you do not.
> 
> Missouri DID succeed from the Union after General Nathaniel Lyon illegally captured Jefferson City and ousted the duly elected government of the state.
Click to expand...


Dear OF and MO:
As one Southern historian pointed out, if it weren't for slavery, we would not have built up the economy and gained the edge in the Industrial Revolution, and advantage that remains to this day. I look at our Founding Fathers from Jefferson to Madison (who was a plantation owner while his wife was a Quaker against slavery), and I wonder how our country could have been built if these founders didn't have slave help to get the nation started, when the same people developing the land were also forming the govt. Back in those days, most slaves were not even owned by their masters but by the banks that mortgaged them like houses; so they could not have been freed any easier than people can just donate a house to a homeless person.

Currently we still depend on Chinese slave labor for all our cheap goods.
We cannot just suddenly stop all slavery and pay everyone minimum wage, or the 
economy would crash. We'd have to work out a longterm plan to get to that point.
In the meantime, are we going to slam the historical advantages we have out of guilt?
Or are we going to use what we have to facilitate equal progress and development for all people?

Instead of complaining in shame about the sacrifices that have gone into having the freedoms we have today, we should be focused on how we can use our freedoms and advantages as a nation to get past this historic dependence on slave labor and work
toward sustainable economies and democracies. That is the reason I believe these
sacrifices were made, that one day, the benefits would be shared with the world.

We cannot pay back for all the injustice that goes into the benefits we have.
But we can pay it forward and work to organize resources, especially using free enterprise, to set up local democracies where people can support and govern themselves without the same patterns of oppression and dependency as the class wars over slaves and masters.

We are meant to move forward and do better.

We should be grateful to those who contributed to building this country,
and be willing to resolve debts where these are owed.

There is nothing shameful in working out problems in our history to build solutions instead.
There is both good and bad, and in order to learn from history we should acknowledge both and don't hide either one, as they are both part of the learning curve of social development.


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## oldfart

emilynghiem said:


> I think as more people are healed of the pain and suffering that slavery invokes, we won't see as much reactionism against what these same images mean to others historically.



That is not going to happen because the symbols of the Confederacy have been appropriated by those who advocate white resistance and supremacy to this day.  The same applies to the swastika as a Nazi symbol now used by neo-nazis.  These are the flags flown by those who are in prison for murder, arson, and similar crimes based on race.   Healing only starts when the violence is repudiated and the racism abandoned.  



emilynghiem said:


> P.S. I take it from your msg you are one such person who doesn't have attachments either way



To the contrary, I have spent most of my adult life in Mississippi.  Racism distorts and harms white southerners as well as black people.  It is in the interest of white Southerners to fight it.


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## William Joyce

Missourian said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of white resistance, no matter how much its typical defender denies any racial connotation.  "Heritage" and "regional pride" are kinda crappy excuses...  who's proud of a latitude?
> 
> That said, why can't whites show a little resistance?  Lord knows nobody gets huffy about the Puerto Rican flag, the Israeli flag, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here we disagree William.
> 
> What exactly are whites resisting?
Click to expand...


Their extinction/extermination.


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## rightwinger

Missourian said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what's your point?
Click to expand...


The point is simply this

The confederate battle flag was an acceptable symbol of an army in rebellion. Once it was usurped as a symbol of racists to subjugate and oppress blacks, it became an objectionable symbol. 
If the people who came to lynch your father did so under a confederate flag, how would you feel about that banner?

The meanings of symbols change over time. The swastika was a religious symbol before it was usurped by the Nazis


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## Missourian

oldfart said:


> To the contrary, I have spent most of my adult life in Mississippi.



...but you're originally from the north...

Here is my question to you...

In 2001, Mississippi held a referendum to remove the Confederate Flag from the Mississippi state flag...it was defeated with  64% of citizens voting to retain the Stars and Bars.


Are 64% of your neighbors racists?


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## emilynghiem

oldfart said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think as more people are healed of the pain and suffering that slavery invokes, we won't see as much reactionism against what these same images mean to others historically.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not going to happen because the symbols of the Confederacy have been appropriated by those who advocate white resistance and supremacy to this day.  The same applies to the swastika as a Nazi symbol now used by neo-nazis.  These are the flags flown by those who are in prison for murder, arson, and similar crimes based on race.   Healing only starts when the violence is repudiated and the racism abandoned.
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I take it from your msg you are one such person who doesn't have attachments either way
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To the contrary, I have spent most of my adult life in Mississippi.  Racism distorts and harms white southerners as well as black people.  It is in the interest of white Southerners to fight it.
Click to expand...


Dear OF: I applaud your commitment to changing these things. May I recommend an excellent resource for you? The Center for the Healing of Racism offers free training in dialogue facilitation and forums, and a series on how racism affects multiple levels of society and inward and outward thinking.  The moderators are well experienced in handling sensitive communities and issues, including the racist injuries related to slavery and native american genocide, which is exceptionally deep and painful to heal.  The trick is the healing is an interactive process, and the focus is on helping each person to identify their own hurts first separate from how they feel others are instigating or spreading this. That can be very hard to separate the two levels so we don't keep reacting to what others say and see. The more we can heal inside, we can reach out more; but we can't replace the inner healing with trying to change others we think are causing the problem, that's backwards.

If you have places to introduce the educational outreach work or workshops, I highly recommend the CHR to help open up the dialogue where it has a healing effect on all people. I think their website is http://www.centerhealingracism.org
I have their dialogue guidelines posted online at http://www.houstonprogressive.org


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## Soggy in NOLA

Ooh!  Ooh!!

The _Confederacy_?


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## Dissent

Lonestar_logic said:


> Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. *No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.*



Ah! that's why I don't come here much lol...

Oh and I see the flag as a symbol of resistance to tyranny. Every time I see the stars and bars my heart skips a beat and I feel a great sense of joy and pride in my chest....I will NEVER pledge allegiance to the US flag I will always pledge allegiance to the stars and bars.I have to teach my daughter this as well since she is in school now they are ramming this garbage down her throat about pledging allegiance to some country that occupies our country.


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## rdean

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



Oh, Confederate Republicans and African Americans see the flag the same way.  Just from opposite sides.  Republicans try to take credit for what Republicans did before most of the conservatives left the then conservative Democratic Party in the middle 60's and swelled the ranks of the Republican Party.  It's why the KKK and the Aryan Nation see themselves as Republicans.  The Republican Party is at least 90% white.  It's why they celebrate "Confederate Day or Month" in many southern states.  It's why Republicans throw peanuts at a black camera women.  Why shirts pop up in Romney rallies saying things like "Put WHITE back in the WHITE House".


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## Swagger

Seems more like a symbol of passive discord, in the sense that 'we do things different down here', if you know what I mean. My wife's got a pair of demin hot pants with it emblazoned on both back pockets (she's from N. Carolina).


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## Dissent

rdean said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, Confederate Republicans and African Americans see the flag the same way.  Just from opposite sides.  Republicans try to take credit for what Republicans did before most of the conservatives left the then conservative Democratic Party in the middle 60's and swelled the ranks of the Republican Party.  It's why the KKK and the Aryan Nation see themselves as Republicans.  The Republican Party is at least 90% white.  It's why they celebrate "Confederate Day or Month" in many southern states.  It's why Republicans throw peanuts at a black camera women.  Why shirts pop up in Romney rallies saying things like "Put WHITE back in the WHITE House".
Click to expand...


Another one that has no idea what the Klan and Aryan Nations is about....why don't you try talking to some of them...they hate both parties...which is why White Nationalists have their own party now.


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## Missourian

rightwinger said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what's your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point is simply this
> 
> The confederate battle flag was an acceptable symbol of an army in rebellion. Once it was usurped as a symbol of racists to subjugate and oppress blacks, it became an objectionable symbol.
> If the people who came to lynch your father did so under a confederate flag, how would you feel about that banner?
> 
> The meanings of symbols change over time. The swastika was a religious symbol before it was usurped by the Nazis
Click to expand...


I agree that symbols change,  which means the meaning of a symbol is not set forever in stone.

Just because the Klan co-opted the Symbol of the Confederacy does not make the Flag of the Confederacy racist...any more than if the Klan adopted the State flag of Connecticut as their standard would make any Connecticuters flying that flag a racist.


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## rdean

Dissent said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, Confederate Republicans and African Americans see the flag the same way.  Just from opposite sides.  Republicans try to take credit for what Republicans did before most of the conservatives left the then conservative Democratic Party in the middle 60's and swelled the ranks of the Republican Party.  It's why the KKK and the Aryan Nation see themselves as Republicans.  The Republican Party is at least 90% white.  It's why they celebrate "Confederate Day or Month" in many southern states.  It's why Republicans throw peanuts at a black camera women.  Why shirts pop up in Romney rallies saying things like "Put WHITE back in the WHITE House".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another one that has no idea what the Klan and Aryan Nations is about....why don't you try talking to some of them...they hate both parties...which is why White Nationalists have their own party now.
Click to expand...


Give me a break.  Go to their side.  Sounds like Republicans to me.

http://kkk.bz/


----------



## Dissent

Course it does...you are a liberal...you think republicans=nazis....they may act like nazis sometimes but they aren't in beliefs. Look up the Third Position Party.


----------



## Swagger

Dissent said:


> Course it does...you are a liberal...you think republicans=nazis....they may act like nazis sometimes but they aren't in beliefs. Look up the *Third Position Party*.



Is that the party lead by Merlin Miller?


----------



## rightwinger

Missourian said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is simply this
> 
> The confederate battle flag was an acceptable symbol of an army in rebellion. Once it was usurped as a symbol of racists to subjugate and oppress blacks, it became an objectionable symbol.
> If the people who came to lynch your father did so under a confederate flag, how would you feel about that banner?
> 
> The meanings of symbols change over time. The swastika was a religious symbol before it was usurped by the Nazis
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree that symbols change,  which means the meaning of a symbol is not set forever in stone.
> 
> Just because the Klan co-opted the Symbol of the Confederacy does not make the Flag of the Confederacy racist...any more than if the Klan adopted the State flag of Connecticut as their standard would make any Connecticuters flying that flag a racist.
Click to expand...


Symbols are just that symbols

They represent something else. The Confederate flag at one time represented rebellion. The Klan and other racists had other ideas what that flag would symbolize.....white supremacy over blacks

It might not be fair....but that is the way it is


----------



## rightwinger

Dissent said:


> Course it does...you are a liberal...you think republicans=nazis....they may act like nazis sometimes but they aren't in beliefs. Look up the Third Position Party.



Actually, in reading your posts for a month....you seem like a Nazi


----------



## Steelplate

It represents a bygone era that some folk apparently still need to let go of.

That being said....I always thought it was a cool looking flag.


----------



## Dissent

Its not a bygone era its the flag of an occupied nation whether you or anyone else wants to acknowledge that.


----------



## emilynghiem

Dissent said:


> Its not a bygone era its the flag of an occupied nation whether you or anyone else wants to acknowledge that.



Hi Dissent: Would love to see you and other supporters join forces with Hawaii, that also claims its sovereign nation was unlawfully claimed by the U.S.

You might get more support that way to reclaim independence by voiding annexation.

I can imagine a ton of people would love to see the annexation of Hawaii voided,
so certain Presidential candidates coming from there could no longer claim US citizenship!

Ha ha. (Just remember to write the terms of de-annexation where any illegal immigrants are automatically considered citizens of Hawaii. So when Hawaii is de-annexed, they would take all that native population with them and solve the immigration problem at the same time)

You would solve several problems at once, and be considered a national hero!


----------



## Politico

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



As it appears none of the people arguing have a clue I doubt it.


----------



## oldfart

I'm beginning to think I hit a nerve.  




> Hi, you have received -50 reputation points from Dissent.
> Reputation was given for this post.
> 
> Comment:
> Such a fucking idiot...
> 
> Regards,
> Dissent


----------



## rightwinger

Dissent said:


> Its not a bygone era its the flag of an occupied nation whether you or anyone else wants to acknowledge that.



Yea...that is what happens when ya give darkies the vote


----------



## oldfart

emilynghiem said:


> Dear OF: I applaud your commitment to changing these things. May I recommend an excellent resource for you? The Center for the Healing of Racism offers free training in dialogue facilitation and forums, and a series on how racism affects multiple levels of society and inward and outward thinking.  The moderators are well experienced in handling sensitive communities and issues, including the racist injuries related to slavery and native american genocide, which is exceptionally deep and painful to heal.  The trick is the healing is an interactive process, and the focus is on helping each person to identify their own hurts first separate from how they feel others are instigating or spreading this. That can be very hard to separate the two levels so we don't keep reacting to what others say and see. The more we can heal inside, we can reach out more; but we can't replace the inner healing with trying to change others we think are causing the problem, that's backwards.
> 
> If you have places to introduce the educational outreach work or workshops, I highly recommend the CHR to help open up the dialogue where it has a healing effect on all people.



I actively support Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center and it Teaching Tolerance program.  If you think I've punched some buttons with some of our posters  who are addicted to violent language, you haven't seen anything yet.  Dees drives them absolutely bananas.  

But it's OK.  I've met many fine people, black and white in Mississippi, Frank Parker, Anne Moody, Fannie Lou Hamer, Rev Ed King, Rueben Anderson, Dr Beitel, and many others.  They faced down people far more dangerous than any posters here.


----------



## Dissent

Swagger said:


> Dissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Course it does...you are a liberal...you think republicans=nazis....they may act like nazis sometimes but they aren't in beliefs. Look up the *Third Position Party*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the party lead by Merlin Miller?
Click to expand...

Its not led by him but he is their Presidential candidate yes.



rightwinger said:


> Dissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Course it does...you are a liberal...you think republicans=nazis....they may act like nazis sometimes but they aren't in beliefs. Look up the Third Position Party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, in reading your posts for a month....you seem like a Nazi
Click to expand...

That doesn't surprise me. Liberals think anyone who doesn't believe as they do is a nazi.



rightwinger said:


> Dissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its not a bygone era its the flag of an occupied nation whether you or anyone else wants to acknowledge that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea...that is what happens when ya give darkies the vote
Click to expand...


What exactly did giving "darkies" the right to vote have to do with my nation being occupied? That happened before then.



oldfart said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear OF: I applaud your commitment to changing these things. May I recommend an excellent resource for you? The Center for the Healing of Racism offers free training in dialogue facilitation and forums, and a series on how racism affects multiple levels of society and inward and outward thinking.  The moderators are well experienced in handling sensitive communities and issues, including the racist injuries related to slavery and native american genocide, which is exceptionally deep and painful to heal.  The trick is the healing is an interactive process, and the focus is on helping each person to identify their own hurts first separate from how they feel others are instigating or spreading this. That can be very hard to separate the two levels so we don't keep reacting to what others say and see. The more we can heal inside, we can reach out more; but we can't replace the inner healing with trying to change others we think are causing the problem, that's backwards.
> 
> If you have places to introduce the educational outreach work or workshops, I highly recommend the CHR to help open up the dialogue where it has a healing effect on all people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actively support Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center and it Teaching Tolerance program.  If you think I've punched some buttons with some of our posters  who are addicted to violent language, you haven't seen anything yet.  Dees drives them absolutely bananas.
> 
> But it's OK.  I've met many fine people, black and white in Mississippi, Frank Parker, Anne Moody, Fannie Lou Hamer, Rev Ed King, Rueben Anderson, Dr Beitel, and many others.  They faced down people far more dangerous than any posters here.
Click to expand...


Ah yes Dees...Morris Dees -- Child Molester, Pervert, and Liar?

such a wonderful person to work with and look up to.


----------



## ThirdTerm

The Confederate battle flag was originally called the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag designed by General Beauregard to represent the Army of Northern Virginia  and it was never adopted as a national flag but it gained prominence in the post-war era as a symbol of the Confederacy after it was adopted as the emblem of the United Confederate Veterans. It is only viewed as a symbol of hatred by African Americans because the Confederate battle flag has been unfairly used as a symbol by various hate groups but its official use will restore the Confederate flag to its proper place representing Southern cultural heritage.


----------



## midcan5

The confederate flag in the minds of many people has the same connotations as the swastika has. You can argue different meanings, but to blacks and most whites, it is a symbol of slavery and hatred. Can you change the swastika back to its original symbolism, neither can you change the Confederate flag back for history doesn't disappear because it is unpleasant. People who imagine another meaning for the flag should recognize the fact the flag has stood for intolerance and hatred and that use continues today. Because some who fly the flag do not hate does not change anything in the minds and perceptions of others. One wonders how tolerant the defenders would be if a nation of Islam flag showed up.


----------



## sakinago

oldfart said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up in Texas, I now live in the suburbs of philly. I never saw the KKK in my 11 years in Texas, or heard one racist comment.... Im sure there are racist parts of Texas, I just havnt seen them,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My brother has lived in East Texas (Tyler) for over 50 years and his three sons grew up in Texas.  One teaches history in Tyler, a second works and lives in Tyler, and the third lives in Houston.  You are correct that Texas contains a lot of different regions and cultures.  East Texas is clearly part of the South.
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the burbs of philly I know of 2 towns that have a KKK chapter, so the north isnt as innocent as everyone thinks, nor is 90% of the south like the movie deliverance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep, there is a lot of racism in the North too.  Like hating Jews, Catholics, and gays, anybody can join in.  But if you come by, I'll be happy to show you parts of the South that are still just like Deliverance.
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> As to what the flag means, for most people at least, is a symbol that the southern way of life is better than the northen way of life. After all, those damn yanks are always in a hurry off to nowhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We must not hang out in the same kind of bars.  I think you got the state department of tourism schtick.
Click to expand...


Hahaha, no doubts here about east Texas being part of the south. And I have seen the deliverence parts of the south. My cousins live in kentucky, I almost got my head blown off pulling up to the wrong house, thank god I was on the phone with my cousins and they zipped over and calmed their neighbors down. But when people up here, hear that I from Texas they assume I am a hic, and ask questions about it, and I just laugh and say "dude, I am from Ft. Worth, its a pretty wealthy area and its nothing like that." 

But in PA, like I said before I see way too many confederate flags. I cant drive 5 miles without seeing one. Basically if you are a fan of country music up here, then chances are you are going to put a confederate flag somewhere on your truck or jeep. And If you listen to country music, like 80% of it is praising the southern way if living. Up here thats what the confederate flag means to them, they enjoy the sourthern way of living. And the black people (outside of philly at least) dont have a problem with that at all. They see it all the time up here, and what it means to them is those people enjoy the southern way of living.


----------



## Dissent

I guess you have never seen a Black person waving the Confederate flag eh? I have...I remember one marched from one place to the other here in the south carrying the flag wearing a confederate uniform.


----------



## sakinago

Dissent said:


> I guess you have never seen a Black person waving the Confederate flag eh? I have...I remember one marched from one place to the other here in the south carrying the flag wearing a confederate uniform.



Was he blind like in chappeles blind black kkk member?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Most whites perceive the flag as a symbol of treason.



jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.


----------



## Dissent

sakinago said:


> Dissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you have never seen a Black person waving the Confederate flag eh? I have...I remember one marched from one place to the other here in the south carrying the flag wearing a confederate uniform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was he blind like in chappeles blind black kkk member?
Click to expand...


Black man supports Confederate flag in march
Services
Black Southerner marching to D.C., seeks respect for Confederate flag | Daily Progress


----------



## rightwinger

JakeStarkey said:


> Most whites perceive the flag as a symbol of treason.
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.
Click to expand...


Even in its best connotation the Confederate Flag symbolizes a revolution to preserve the right to own other people


----------



## Dissent

Guess you left wingers love being wrong...but by all means go ahead keep doing so its amusing..


----------



## rightwinger

Dissent said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. *No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah! that's why I don't come here much lol...
> 
> Oh and I see the flag as a symbol of resistance to tyranny. Every time I see the stars and bars my heart skips a beat and I feel a great sense of joy and pride in my chest....I will NEVER pledge allegiance to the US flag I will always pledge allegiance to the stars and bars.I have to teach my daughter this as well since she is in school now they are ramming this garbage down her throat about pledging allegiance to some country that occupies our country.
Click to expand...


I bet the other kids picked on you a lot when you were a kid


----------



## Ernie S.

rightwinger said:


>



Yup the KKK is essentially irrelevant today, but let's examine the darlings of the left, the OWS crowd.


----------



## rightwinger

Ernie S. said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup the KKK is essentially irrelevant today, but let's examine the darlings of the left, the OWS crowd.
Click to expand...


How many people did OWS lynch?


----------



## sakinago

rightwinger said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup the KKK is essentially irrelevant today, but let's examine the darlings of the left, the OWS crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many people did OWS lynch?
Click to expand...


how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?


----------



## rightwinger

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup the KKK is essentially irrelevant today, but let's examine the darlings of the left, the OWS crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many people did OWS lynch?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
Click to expand...


The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted

Please try to keep up


----------



## Dissent

Yawn...


----------



## Ernie S.

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many people did OWS lynch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted
> 
> Please try to keep up
Click to expand...


The Battle Flag is more about history and heritage than any hope that "The South shall rise again" mentality.
I own one, but only rarely display it and never without giving the US flag a more prominent position.


----------



## sakinago

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many people did OWS lynch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted
> 
> Please try to keep up
Click to expand...


I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.


----------



## Mr. Peepers

I am from Georgia, and the confederate flag absolutely stands for discrimination.  The only people who proudly display it in my native state are racists, KKK members and neo-nazis.  This is why we voted to change the flag some years ago.  The only place this flag belongs is in a museum or a civil war battle re-enactment.  Period.


----------



## oldfart

sakinago said:


> Hahaha, no doubts here about east Texas being part of the south. And I have seen the deliverence parts of the south. My cousins live in kentucky, I almost got my head blown off pulling up to the wrong house, thank god I was on the phone with my cousins and they zipped over and calmed their neighbors down. But when people up here, hear that I from Texas they assume I am a hic, and ask questions about it, and I just laugh and say "dude, I am from Ft. Worth, its a pretty wealthy area and its nothing like that."


Look at the bright side.  At least they didn't turn the dogs loose.  



sakinago said:


> But in PA, like I said before I see way too many confederate flags. I cant drive 5 miles without seeing one. Basically if you are a fan of country music up here, then chances are you are going to put a confederate flag somewhere on your truck or jeep. And If you listen to country music, like 80% of it is praising the southern way if living. Up here thats what the confederate flag means to them, they enjoy the sourthern way of living. And the black people (outside of philly at least) dont have a problem with that at all. They see it all the time up here, and what it means to them is those people enjoy the southern way of living.



I'd agree that being a NASCAR fan and liking the "Dukes of Hazard" does not a racist make.  Especially if they deer hunt.  Ten years or so ago I kept a small notebook in my car and kept track of what people driving pickup trucks had in the rear window gun rack.  First place was a near tie between umbrellas and fishing gear.  Third was levels and assorted construction tools.  Then it dawned on me.  Only an idiot would leave a gun in plain sight where it could be stolen so easily.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Wrong question.

Todays KKK is not the equivalent of the Welcome Wagon.



sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup the KKK is essentially irrelevant today, but let's examine the darlings of the left, the OWS crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many people did OWS lynch?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
Click to expand...


----------



## tinydancer

Ernie S. said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted
> 
> Please try to keep up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Battle Flag is more about history and heritage than any hope that "The South shall rise again" mentality.
> I own one, but only rarely display it and never without giving the US flag a more prominent position.
Click to expand...


Well then you know your proper times. I love it. 

I know I am weird but for the life of me I would never betray either of our countries.

The flag that so many use as the "battle flag" was not a battle flag. 

My father actually thought that a great idea as a family plan was to go to Gettysburg so I could witness this as a recreation of the coming together of America. I really thought my Baba was going to puke her guts out at the recreation of an amputation on the battlefield. 

This is the same wonderous father who dragged me around Washington DC and climbed the needle with me.
No one will understand the flag will they?


----------



## tinydancer

Mr. Peepers said:


> I am from Georgia, and the confederate flag absolutely stands for discrimination.  The only people who proudly display it in my native state are racists, KKK members and neo-nazis.  This is why we voted to change the flag some years ago.  The only place this flag belongs is in a museum or a civil war battle re-enactment.  Period.



I hate liars like you. Tell me your county tell me your lies.  Too funny.


----------



## tinydancer

Ernie S. said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted
> 
> Please try to keep up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Battle Flag is more about history and heritage than any hope that "The South shall rise again" mentality.
> I own one, but only rarely display it and never without giving the US flag a more prominent position.
Click to expand...


I loved my dad to death. Now don't get me wrong but  he'd take me on these "historical"  vacations And I love him for what he taught me. Oh you have no idea how much he loved me and how many tours I took..

My father loved me so much I know half the FBI building by rote. Not kidding.

omygosh that dosent sound right at all.

you have to understand there was no stuff going on like today. I think my dad and me were down three levels just being canucks aka idiots at the best of time we are always idiots


----------



## tinydancer

Have any of you guys ever gone to the White House?


----------



## earlycuyler

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



It will in time. In the scheme of things, it really was not that long ago. To me, its just a flag.


----------



## Dissent

tinydancer said:


> Have any of you guys ever gone to the White House?



Nope. But would love to one day.


----------



## oldfart

sakinago said:


> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?



Actually a pretty good question.  In the 50's, 60's, and early 70's white resistance in the South was led by White Citizen's Councils where "respectable" segregationists in public office and the business community tried to slow or reverse desegregation.  The local muscle to rough up Freedom Riders and shoot into occupied houses and burn churches was delegated to the Klan.  In a typical Southern county the White Citizens Council normally included the Sheriff, Chief of Police, Mayor, President of the Bank, County Superintendent of Schools and so forth.  The Chief Deputy was often the Klan head, supported by all the good ol' boys he went to school with.  

The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites were lynched between 1882 and 1968.  The last full public lynching in the South was probably Emmett Till in Mississippi in 1955.  After that, people were killed (Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner in 1964 for example) in racially motivated slayings, but these more nearly resembled assassinations or mob hits rather than traditional lynchings.  In the decade from 2000 to 2009 a number of high profile cases which had ended in hung juries were retried and convictions obtained.  

So to answer, there are probably two or three dozen inmates in prison today serving long sentences for racially motivated murder, attempted murder, arson, and similar violent 
crimes.  I believe six of them are there for trying to kill Morris Dees.  To the best of my knowledge, all of them were members of the KKK or a successor white supremacy organization such as Aryan Nation, or had close ties to such organizations.  The traditional meeting place is the Stormfront.org  website.


----------



## oldfart

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



Well, we seem to have had a vigorous and interesting discussion.  Have we answered your question?  I think you have heard from the passionate on both sides of the question.


----------



## Toro

Before I moved to the States, I viewed it as a flag of oppression and racism. After living in the South, I have come to realize it is also a symbol of pride. My black friends think it's the former. I now think its both.


----------



## Ernie S.

oldfart said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually a pretty good question.  In the 50's, 60's, and early 70's white resistance in the South was led by White Citizen's Councils where "respectable" segregationists in public office and the business community tried to slow or reverse desegregation.  The local muscle to rough up Freedom Riders and shoot into occupied houses and burn churches was delegated to the Klan.  In a typical Southern county the White Citizens Council normally included the Sheriff, Chief of Police, Mayor, President of the Bank, County Superintendent of Schools and so forth.  The Chief Deputy was often the Klan head, supported by all the good ol' boys he went to school with.
> 
> The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites were lynched between 1882 and 1968.  The last full public lynching in the South was probably Emmett Till in Mississippi in 1955.  After that, people were killed (Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner in 1964 for example) in racially motivated slayings, but these more nearly resembled assassinations or mob hits rather than traditional lynchings.  In the decade from 2000 to 2009 a number of high profile cases which had ended in hung juries were retried and convictions obtained.
> 
> So to answer, there are probably two or three dozen inmates in prison today serving long sentences for racially motivated murder, attempted murder, arson, and similar violent
> crimes.  I believe six of them are there for trying to kill Morris Dees.  To the best of my knowledge, all of them were members of the KKK or a successor white supremacy organization such as Aryan Nation, or had close ties to such organizations.  The traditional meeting place is the Stormfront.org  website.
Click to expand...

How many black men are in prison for killing whites? I figure they have all but caught up.


----------



## Gadawg73

Because many Georgia blacks are offended by the stars and bars I supported the flag change here years ago. Additionally, it was changed in the 50s to what it was because of support for segregation here which I also opposed.
We still see some young fools flying it on their pickup trucks and try to convince them that is not the best way to remember their ancestors that fought for the wrong side in the civil war.
However, I know many that do not support government flying any version of that flag anymore that do not have a problem with it at re-enactments, heritage observances and memorials. Many southern soldiers were fighting against whatever army was showing up to take all of their crops and livestock, had no slaves and lived in poverty. Their descendants have no reason to be ashamed of them for having that flag as their battle flag. It was war. Not until Jim Crowe, segregation, Klan and other hate terrorist groups was that flag used as a symbol of hate, violence and discrimination to rally uneducated whites with fear against blacks. 
If blacks are offended by it why not just not have it anywhere near anything government?
And for private citizens since it is just a flag, ignore it but you can not blame our black neighbors for being upset with it. I would be too if I was black.


----------



## Gadawg73

I was born American and by the grace of God as a southerner. I saw it all. The noose was/is also a symbol of hate just as much as that flag. We would see nooses left in black team mates lockers by other players in high school in the 60s. White parents would come to the defense of white players that were caught. But the majority of the white parents opposed that, stood up and disciplined their kids. Same with the flag here as we respect the opinions of our black neighbors. If that flag offends them on display of anything government then I oppose it. And I am as southern old school as they come.
But you can not stop a private citizen from flying it. 
Thank you Granny Walker for raising me right. I think of you everyday.


----------



## Dissent

Gadawg73 said:


> Because many Georgia blacks are offended by the stars and bars I supported the flag change here years ago. Additionally, it was changed in the 50s to what it was because of support for segregation here which I also opposed.
> We still see some young fools flying it on their pickup trucks and try to convince them that is not the best way to remember their ancestors that fought for the wrong side in the civil war.
> However, I know many that do not support government flying any version of that flag anymore that do not have a problem with it at re-enactments, heritage observances and memorials. Many southern soldiers were fighting against whatever army was showing up to take all of their crops and livestock, had no slaves and lived in poverty. Their descendants have no reason to be ashamed of them for having that flag as their battle flag. It was war. Not until Jim Crowe, segregation, Klan and other hate terrorist groups was that flag used as a symbol of hate, violence and discrimination to rally uneducated whites with fear against blacks.
> If blacks are offended by it why not just not have it anywhere near anything government?
> And for private citizens since it is just a flag, ignore it but you can not blame our black neighbors for being upset with it. I would be too if I was black.



Wannabe yankee....sigh

Oh and it wasn't changed by the people it was changed by an arrogant jack ass of a governor who then got his ass thrown out of office because Perdue claimed he would let us vote on it only to be lied to by Perdue....we now have the ugliest flag in the country...its not my flag I fly the real Georgia flag to this day.


----------



## uscitizen

regent said:


> It is one of the ironies of this country that some have taken the confederate flat that might have been symbolic of the bravery of all Americans North and South and made it into a hate symbol.



Huh?


----------



## OODA_Loop

The issue was how to address slavery.

It was Consitutionally protected and Supreme Court upheld.

There wasn't the votes in Congress to change that.


----------



## emilynghiem

rightwinger said:


> Even in its best connotation the Confederate Flag symbolizes a revolution to preserve the right to own other people



The war and the conflicts/strategies around slavery
were not about slavery per se, but economic and political control.

If I had to make an analogy today, the issue of abortion is not really about terminating the life in the womb per se, but about fighting over government interference or limitations because of the fear that opposing outside groups are going to politically dominate.

I agree with the posters who see the flag as symbolizing independence of the States and rebelling against overreaching federal govt.

Texas has a whole history and culture built around that, and the Texas Flag is very similar in symbolizing that level of independence.

I think it is sad to associate the flag with slavery and lynching, and to see it as a hate symbol.
I guess the anti-war people who burn the US flag or display it upside down to protest global oppression by corporate slavery in the name of American free market forces, see negative associations instead of the positive heritage that stands for, above the negative side of things going on as well.


----------



## Gadawg73

Dissent said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because many Georgia blacks are offended by the stars and bars I supported the flag change here years ago. Additionally, it was changed in the 50s to what it was because of support for segregation here which I also opposed.
> We still see some young fools flying it on their pickup trucks and try to convince them that is not the best way to remember their ancestors that fought for the wrong side in the civil war.
> However, I know many that do not support government flying any version of that flag anymore that do not have a problem with it at re-enactments, heritage observances and memorials. Many southern soldiers were fighting against whatever army was showing up to take all of their crops and livestock, had no slaves and lived in poverty. Their descendants have no reason to be ashamed of them for having that flag as their battle flag. It was war. Not until Jim Crowe, segregation, Klan and other hate terrorist groups was that flag used as a symbol of hate, violence and discrimination to rally uneducated whites with fear against blacks.
> If blacks are offended by it why not just not have it anywhere near anything government?
> And for private citizens since it is just a flag, ignore it but you can not blame our black neighbors for being upset with it. I would be too if I was black.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wannabe yankee....sigh
> 
> Oh and it wasn't changed by the people it was changed by an arrogant jack ass of a governor who then got his ass thrown out of office because Perdue claimed he would let us vote on it only to be lied to by Perdue....we now have the ugliest flag in the country...its not my flag I fly the real Georgia flag to this day.
Click to expand...


You can fly any flag you want to. 
Wannabe southerners like you always define themselves by such trivial things as flags.
Us Georgians define ourselves by dignity, respect, honor and courage.
Govern yourself accordingly if you claim to be a southerner.


----------



## rightwinger

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted
> 
> Please try to keep up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.
Click to expand...


You really need to dig deeper 

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860. 
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"


----------



## Gadawg73

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted
> 
> Please try to keep up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really need to dig deeper
> 
> The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
> It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"
Click to expand...


Not to everyone it is. 
All over Georgia there are cemeteries of Confederate dead. Most of them were not fighting for a flag or slavery. Putting flags on their graves has nothing to do with what the state was trying to do. Pretty much the same today with any flag on a grave.
Soldiers fight for their buddies first and foremost. Not a flag or government policy at the time. 
Personally, I do not like that flag as most of the folks I see display it are haters.
But I also see the historians, the re-enactments and the graves.
And those that want to ban all of that also.
Just because of a flag.


----------



## rightwinger

Gadawg73 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to dig deeper
> 
> The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
> It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to everyone it is.
> All over Georgia there are cemeteries of Confederate dead. Most of them were not fighting for a flag or slavery. Putting flags on their graves has nothing to do with what the state was trying to do. Pretty much the same today with any flag on a grave.
> Soldiers fight for their buddies first and foremost. Not a flag or government policy at the time.
> Personally, I do not like that flag as most of the folks I see display it are haters.
> But I also see the historians, the re-enactments and the graves.
> And those that want to ban all of that also.
> Just because of a flag.
Click to expand...


I have no problem with displaying that flag to honor those who fought and died for it. 
However, the confederate flag has taken on a new meaning (maybe it always was the meaning) that certain people are not socially equal of others. It is a reminder to stay in your place


----------



## sakinago

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted
> 
> Please try to keep up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really need to dig deeper
> 
> The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
> It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"
Click to expand...


Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.


----------



## Gadawg73

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to dig deeper
> 
> The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
> It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.
Click to expand...


I am part Irish. 
Do not remember any of my relatives castrated, having their children and wives sold away, in slavery for 300 years here, their churches fire bombed and men lynched and killed.
Your Mickey Mouse analogy is in fact a Mickey Mouse argument.


----------



## Dissent

Actually the British did enslave hundreds of thousands of Irish.


----------



## rightwinger

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to dig deeper
> 
> The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
> It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.
Click to expand...


Nobody broke into homes of the Irish in the middle of the night to drag off and lynch a family member wearing a Mickey Mouse hat. If they did, that hat would be offensive to the Irish.


----------



## sakinago

Gadawg73 said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to dig deeper
> 
> The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
> It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am part Irish.
> Do not remember any of my relatives castrated, having their children and wives sold away, in slavery for 300 years here, their churches fire bombed and men lynched and killed.
> Your Mickey Mouse analogy is in fact a Mickey Mouse argument.
Click to expand...


A majority of the Irish history for the past millennium has been one big story of being oppressed. And people back then were very, very unfriendly to the Irish immigrants. So do some research in Irish history, cause they didn't have it easy either. Either way, how many people who have a confederate flag symbol outside of the KKK actually believe that blacks should be enslaved again? I am also trying to think of a society that wasn't enslaved at one point, or that did not enslave others...Im really having a hard time. 

And If you do your research in civil war history, you will find that a lot of the men who fought for the south, did so because back then your values went from most importance to least importance like this: god, family, *state*, and then country. I.E. Robert E. Lee actually opposed slavery, but his values lied more strongly with his state of virginia, than it did the country of the united states. Not many people in the south actually owned slaves, or strongly agreed with it, It was the richer plantation owners that owned slaves and influenced the south to secede from the union. These were the bad people back then. Key functional word there is *back then*. No one in this nation right now is guilty of enslaving a race, nor should anyone feel animosity towards anybody because they were enslaved (b/c no one living has been enslaved). If somebody out there today believes that we should enslave blacks, then they should be dismissed as racist idiots, just like you would dismiss someone who believes that the government is controlled by aliens. You dont talk to people like that and give them what they want, you let them wallow in their own feces of thoughts.

The christian cross was the main symbol of the crusades, but most of the people who wear a cross around their neck are not in support of putting on their armor, grabbing their swords, and killing/converting all the muslims. Same goes for most of the people that have a confederate symbol on their truck, clothes, accessories, etc. It doesn't mean what you claim it means for them.


----------



## sakinago

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to dig deeper
> 
> The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
> It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nobody broke into homes of the Irish in the middle of the night to drag off and lynch a family member wearing a Mickey Mouse hat. If they did, that hat would be offensive to the Irish.
Click to expand...


What? Im sorry this statement does not make sense to me.


----------



## Charles_Main

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.




What most people fail to Understand about the Confederate Flag, is the fact that during the Civil War the Vast Majority of people who lived in the South did not own Slaves. For them the war was about an Abusive Federal Government that they felt was no better than the King of England had been.

So the Flag for Most of them was a symbol of Independence from DC. 

However most since that war, Racist assholes have flown the Flag as a symbol of their Hate for Blacks. So it has gotten a worse image than it really deserves.

I personally have very Mixed Feelings about the Civil war, a War I have studied in Great length. While the very though of People owning other people is Deplorable and unthinkable to me. I do have Sympathies for the Idea of states standing up against an Abusive Central Government. After all this Country was Born for that very Reason, and it seems silly that we keep ceding State's rights and powers to an Increasingly Powerful Federal Government. 

Ironically, If the Southern States who left the Union back then could see how bad things have gotten today as far as Abuse of Federal Power, they would realize they had it Damn Fucking good back then, and their stupid fucking war cost the States in the Fight for their rights and Power, All of them, not just the southern ones.

(sorry about the typos, think I got em all lol)


----------



## emilynghiem

Dissent said:


> Actually the British did enslave hundreds of thousands of Irish.



Dear Dissent: I don't think any other race or tribe of people were kept as cattle and even BRED (by systematically raping the women) to create more slaves!

Not even the Native Americans, who were forced to go through sterilizations but never forced to breed to "create more property".

This level of subjugation is painful enough, and is carried spiritually to future generations still working out those pains until these are more fully healed.

It adds a whole other level of pain and anger to add racial division to this, real or perceived.
Not only do the acts of oppression and economic injustice need to be resolved,
but also the "perceptions" of race and control as another layer on top of it all.

I don't think you can compare that pain to either the British/Irish or to the Native Americans who have their own deep rooted pain from genocide also beyond comparison.

I learned the best way to facilitate the healing is to respect people's perspectives and process, and especially not try to compete or compare which isn't fair or helpful to anyone.


----------



## rightwinger

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody broke into homes of the Irish in the middle of the night to drag off and lynch a family member wearing a Mickey Mouse hat. If they did, that hat would be offensive to the Irish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What? Im sorry this statement does not make sense to me.
Click to expand...


Not surprised


----------



## emilynghiem

Charles_Main said:


> What most people fail to Understand about the Confederate Flag, is the fact that during the Civil War the Vast Majority of people who lived in the South did not own Slaves. For them the war was about an Abusive Federal Government that they felt was no better than the King of England had.
> 
> So the Flag for Most of them was a symbol of Independence for DC.


I agree with this part.



			
				Charles_Main said:
			
		

> However most since that war, Racist assholes have flown the Flag as a symbol of their Hate for Blacks. So it has gotten a worse image than it really deserves.


I am tempted to make a terrible inside joke, and say that if this were the case, the Flag should be flown by the Democrat Party for completely destroying Freedmen's Town and letting national historic Black churches burn down. But no one would get this comment.



			
				Charles_Main said:
			
		

> I personally have very Mixed Feeling about the Civil war, I was I have studied in Great length. While the very though of People owning other people is Deplorable and unthinkable to me. I do have Sympathies for the Idea of states standing up against an Abusive Central Government. After all this Country was Born for that very Reason, and it seems silly that we keep ceding State's rights and powers to an Increasingly Powerful Federal Government.
> 
> Ironically, If the Southern States who left the Union back then could see how bad things have gotten today as far as Abuse of Federal Power, they would realize they had it Damn Fucking good back then, and their stupid fucking war cost the States in the Fight for their rights and Power, All of them, not just the southern ones.



I agree we are going through some similar cycles again.
Hope we can learn from our history instead of destroying and losing it!


----------



## emilynghiem

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody broke into homes of the Irish in the middle of the night to drag off and lynch a family member wearing a Mickey Mouse hat. If they did, that hat would be offensive to the Irish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What? Im sorry this statement does not make sense to me.
Click to expand...


I think what he is saying, is there were as many cases of "Mickey Mouse" hats associated with targeting and lynching Irish people as there were cases of abusing the Confederate Flag to symbolize hating, targeting and lynching Blacks, then you would have the same phenomena of people rejecting that symbol as racially offensive.  That is my guess, sound right or close enough?


----------



## Charles_Main

tinydancer said:


> Have any of you guys ever gone to the White House?



Yep, Twice. Me and the wife took the tour once, and once when I was Much Younger me and some friends of mine drove to DC and parked thinking we would walk to see the WH. Only once you are the ground in DC you realize it's not as Wide Open as the WH looks from the Front on TV. We ended up coming around a corner of some office type Building, and walking toward what we first thought was a park with an Brick and Iron Fence, but as we got closer we realized it was the back entrance basically to the WH, Or one of them anyways. The Marine with the M16 made that clear.

lol


----------



## Gadawg73

Dissent said:


> Actually the British did enslave hundreds of thousands of Irish.



No, they did not enslave hundreds of thousands of Irish. Cromwell did round up thousands, possibly 20,000, and sent them to many Caribean areas including Jamaica where I just returned from last night. In fact, many of the streets in Discovery and Runaway Bay have Irish names and some of the dialect there came from the Irish. 

Barbary Pirates captured many others, as many as 1.5 million and many of those were Irish but it was not the British that enslaved an entire race of Irish as we did for 99% of Africans here in America.
And my Irish heritage goes back to a long time here and none of them were slaves of the British.
Apples and oranges is all the argument you have?


----------



## Gadawg73

sakinago said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards  follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am part Irish.
> Do not remember any of my relatives castrated, having their children and wives sold away, in slavery for 300 years here, their churches fire bombed and men lynched and killed.
> Your Mickey Mouse analogy is in fact a Mickey Mouse argument.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A majority of the Irish history for the past millennium has been one big story of being oppressed. And people back then were very, very unfriendly to the Irish immigrants. So do some research in Irish history, cause they didn't have it easy either. Either way, how many people who have a confederate flag symbol outside of the KKK actually believe that blacks should be enslaved again? I am also trying to think of a society that wasn't enslaved at one point, or that did not enslave others...Im really having a hard time.
> 
> And If you do your research in civil war history, you will find that a lot of the men who fought for the south, did so because back then your values went from most importance to least importance like this: god, family, *state*, and then country. I.E. Robert E. Lee actually opposed slavery, but his values lied more strongly with his state of virginia, than it did the country of the united states. Not many people in the south actually owned slaves, or strongly agreed with it, It was the richer plantation owners that owned slaves and influenced the south to secede from the union. These were the bad people back then. Key functional word there is *back then*. No one in this nation right now is guilty of enslaving a race, nor should anyone feel animosity towards anybody because they were enslaved (b/c no one living has been enslaved). If somebody out there today believes that we should enslave blacks, then they should be dismissed as racist idiots, just like you would dismiss someone who believes that the government is controlled by aliens. You dont talk to people like that and give them what they want, you let them wallow in their own feces of thoughts.
> 
> The christian cross was the main symbol of the crusades, but most of the people who wear a cross around their neck are not in support of putting on their armor, grabbing their swords, and killing/converting all the muslims. Same goes for most of the people that have a confederate symbol on their truck, clothes, accessories, etc. It doesn't mean what you claim it means for them.
Click to expand...


So we see no one being "unfriendly" to immigrants of all other ethnic groups in the history of this nation?
Take a good look NOW.
Dude, I was born and raised in the deep south. I am 59 years old. Played on the first integrated team in high school here and saw almost everything integrated here in the mid 60s. Saw mobs of red necks that were fathers of my team mates and friends use violence against black women and children. Southern senators of that era objected to mixed race jazz bands playing at the damn White House. 
Do you have ANY CLUE why the Confederate battle flag WAS PUT  on the Georgia state flag in 1956? From 1866 until 1956 the Georgia flag WAS NOT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG.
They changed it in 1956 as a stand against the Supreme Court's ruling Brown v. Board of Education banning segregation.

For the majority of those here that flash that flag around it is all about hate. Those of us that have respect for our heritage DO NOT have to flash it around.
We are Americans first. That is our flag. 
In 1956 southern women in The United Daughters of the Confederacy OPPOSED the Confederate stars and bars in the Georgia flag.
Respectfully, please quit showing your total lack of knowledge on this subject. I lived it. All I post is historical fact.
You do not live in the real world and definitely not in the south.


----------



## tinydancer

Toro said:


> Before I moved to the States, I viewed it as a flag of oppression and racism. After living in the South, I have come to realize it is also a symbol of pride. My black friends think it's the former. I now think its both.



Oh thank you so much.



 Both are true. You have skin heads who use this particular flag as a symbol of racism but on the other hand you have the true use of the flag and many don't know this as a true representation of one of the most agonizing periods of American History.

But here is the most important part. 

How America rose above so many other countries healing past conflicts. 

But people can not, shall not, must not wipe it out. It is history. And history is a subtle weaving of facts and legends.


----------



## oldfart

Charles_Main said:


> What most people fail to Understand about the Confederate Flag, is the fact that during the Civil War the Vast Majority of people who lived in the South did not own Slaves. For them the war was about an Abusive Federal Government that they felt was no better than the King of England had been.



OK, historian,  how was the South abused between 1820 and 1860?  I defy you to come up with any issue other than the slave power's voracious appetite to extend into every territory and state.  They controlled the federal  government, dictated tariff and industrial and banking policy (the major issues of the day), censored the mails, and demanded the odious Fugitive Slave Act.  In 1861 they would not accept the Cittenden Amendment nor Lincoln's proposals for compensated emancipation in 1861 through 1863.  On February 3, 1865 they chose to prolong the war when it was obviously nearing its end by rejecting Lincoln's generous terms at the Hampton Roads conference.  These were not an oppressed people, these were an evil and arrogant people who never took responsibility for their actions and killed hundreds of thousands as result.  

Now impress me with your knowledge of the Civil War;  how many Southern states contributed white regiments (not regiments of the United States Colored Forces) to fight in the Union Army?  And ow many troops of the Confederacy were not available to General Lee because they were tied down trying to suppress Unionist uprisings in large parts of the South? How much do Southerners today honor and memorialize their ancestors who fought on the RIGHT SIDE of the war for the Union?  Is not that a part of Southern heritage too?


----------



## squeeze berry

oldfart said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually a pretty good question.  In the 50's, 60's, and early 70's white resistance in the South was led by White Citizen's Councils where "respectable" segregationists in public office and the business community tried to slow or reverse desegregation.  The local muscle to rough up Freedom Riders and shoot into occupied houses and burn churches was delegated to the Klan.  In a typical Southern county the White Citizens Council normally included the Sheriff, Chief of Police, Mayor, President of the Bank, County Superintendent of Schools and so forth.  The Chief Deputy was often the Klan head, supported by all the good ol' boys he went to school with.
> 
> *The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites were lynched between 1882 and 1968. * The last full public lynching in the South was probably Emmett Till in Mississippi in 1955.  After that, people were killed (Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner in 1964 for example) in racially motivated slayings, but these more nearly resembled assassinations or mob hits rather than traditional lynchings.  In the decade from 2000 to 2009 a number of high profile cases which had ended in hung juries were retried and convictions obtained.
> 
> So to answer, there are probably two or three dozen inmates in prison today serving long sentences for racially motivated murder, attempted murder, arson, and similar violent
> crimes.  I believe six of them are there for trying to kill Morris Dees.  To the best of my knowledge, all of them were members of the KKK or a successor white supremacy organization such as Aryan Nation, or had close ties to such organizations.  The traditional meeting place is the Stormfront.org  website.
Click to expand...


a drop in the bucket compared to the contemporary black on white crime rate


----------



## squeeze berry

rightwinger said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most whites perceive the flag as a symbol of treason.
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even in its best connotation the Confederate Flag symbolizes a revolution to preserve the right to own other people
Click to expand...


you can always look the other way if you don't like it.

Your rights end where someone else's begins.


----------



## rightwinger

squeeze berry said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most whites perceive the flag as a symbol of treason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even in its best connotation the Confederate Flag symbolizes a revolution to preserve the right to own other people
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you can always look the other way if you don't like it.
> 
> Your rights end where someone else's begins.
Click to expand...


Nobody has questioned your individual right to declare your racism

It is when you insist that schools and government agencies support your racism that it becomes an issue


----------



## jillian

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



people who aren't black and aren't southern KNOW that it's a symbol of racism, slavery and jim crow laws.

and if your friend glorifies the civil war, he's glorifying treason.

personally, i'm not sure lincoln did us a favor keeping the union.


----------



## midcan5

Related piece. 

Religious Symbol or Cultural Symbol? - NYTimes.com

"What bothers me is the spectacle of a court declaring with a straight face that the state-mandated display of crucifixes has nothing to do with religion or indoctrination, and supporting its conclusion with arguments that don&#8217;t pass the laugh-test for half a second."  SF


----------



## usmcstinger

The confederate flag is a symbol of the most casualties ( 750,000 ) the US has ever sustained in a War. 

&#8220;But wars have profound economic, demographic and social costs,&#8221; he went on. &#8220;We&#8217;re seeing at least 37,000 more widows here, and 90,000 more orphans. That&#8217;s a profound social impact, and it&#8217;s our duty to get it right.&#8221;
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/s...cent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

From February 1864 until the end of the American Civil War (1861-65) in April 1865, Andersonville, Georgia, served as the site of a notorious Confederate military prison. The prison at Andersonville, officially called Camp Sumter, was the South's largest prison for captured Union soldiers and known for its unhealthy conditions and high death rate. In all, approximately *13,000 Union prisoners perished at Andersonville*, and following the war its commander, Captain Henry Wirz (1823-65), was tried, convicted and executed for war crimes.
Andersonville &mdash; History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts

There Confederate Flag is the symbol of the worst period of our history.
Nothing to ever be proud about.


----------



## squeeze berry

rightwinger said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even in its best connotation the Confederate Flag symbolizes a revolution to preserve the right to own other people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can always look the other way if you don't like it.
> 
> Your rights end where someone else's begins.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nobody has questioned your individual right to declare your racism
> 
> It is when you insist that schools and government agencies support your racism that it becomes an issue
Click to expand...



and no one is questioning your right to declare your racism either


----------



## squeeze berry

usmcstinger said:


> The confederate flag is a symbol of the most casualties ( 750,000 ) the US has ever sustained in a War.
> 
> But wars have profound economic, demographic and social costs, he went on. Were seeing at least 37,000 more widows here, and 90,000 more orphans. Thats a profound social impact, and its our duty to get it right.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/s...cent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> From February 1864 until the end of the American Civil War (1861-65) in April 1865, Andersonville, Georgia, served as the site of a notorious Confederate military prison. The prison at Andersonville, officially called Camp Sumter, was the South's largest prison for captured Union soldiers and known for its unhealthy conditions and high death rate. In all, approximately *13,000 Union prisoners perished at Andersonville*, and following the war its commander, Captain Henry Wirz (1823-65), was tried, convicted and executed for war crimes.
> Andersonville &mdash; History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts
> 
> There Confederate Flag is the symbol of the worst period of our history.
> Nothing to ever be proud about.



the war was not necessary.

Lincoln could have let them go.


----------



## Gadawg73

squeeze berry said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The confederate flag is a symbol of the most casualties ( 750,000 ) the US has ever sustained in a War.
> 
> But wars have profound economic, demographic and social costs, he went on. Were seeing at least 37,000 more widows here, and 90,000 more orphans. Thats a profound social impact, and its our duty to get it right.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/s...cent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> From February 1864 until the end of the American Civil War (1861-65) in April 1865, Andersonville, Georgia, served as the site of a notorious Confederate military prison. The prison at Andersonville, officially called Camp Sumter, was the South's largest prison for captured Union soldiers and known for its unhealthy conditions and high death rate. In all, approximately *13,000 Union prisoners perished at Andersonville*, and following the war its commander, Captain Henry Wirz (1823-65), was tried, convicted and executed for war crimes.
> Andersonville &mdash; History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts
> 
> There Confederate Flag is the symbol of the worst period of our history.
> Nothing to ever be proud about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the war was not necessary.
> 
> Lincoln could have let them go.
Click to expand...


And all the southern states would have obeyed his command.


----------



## Dissent

Gadawg73 said:


> Dissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the British did enslave hundreds of thousands of Irish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they did not enslave hundreds of thousands of Irish. Cromwell did round up thousands, possibly 20,000, and sent them to many Caribean areas including Jamaica where I just returned from last night. In fact, many of the streets in Discovery and Runaway Bay have Irish names and some of the dialect there came from the Irish.
> 
> Barbary Pirates captured many others, as many as 1.5 million and many of those were Irish but it was not the British that enslaved an entire race of Irish as we did for 99% of Africans here in America.
> And my Irish heritage goes back to a long time here and none of them were slaves of the British.
> Apples and oranges is all the argument you have?
Click to expand...


Oh and did you know that no confederate flag EVER flew over a slave ship but a US flag did...so I see the US flag as more racist than the Confederate flag


Gadawg73 said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The confederate flag is a symbol of the most casualties ( 750,000 ) the US has ever sustained in a War.
> 
> But wars have profound economic, demographic and social costs, he went on. Were seeing at least 37,000 more widows here, and 90,000 more orphans. Thats a profound social impact, and its our duty to get it right.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/s...cent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> From February 1864 until the end of the American Civil War (1861-65) in April 1865, Andersonville, Georgia, served as the site of a notorious Confederate military prison. The prison at Andersonville, officially called Camp Sumter, was the South's largest prison for captured Union soldiers and known for its unhealthy conditions and high death rate. In all, approximately *13,000 Union prisoners perished at Andersonville*, and following the war its commander, Captain Henry Wirz (1823-65), was tried, convicted and executed for war crimes.
> Andersonville &mdash; History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts
> 
> There Confederate Flag is the symbol of the worst period of our history.
> Nothing to ever be proud about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the war was not necessary.
> 
> Lincoln could have let them go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And all the southern states would have obeyed his command.
Click to expand...


Why should they have listened to him? He was a tyrant and a dictator who imprisoned a US congressman for being against the war and tried to crush the first amendment when newspapers were against the war. The states VOLUNTARILY joined the union they have every right to this day to leave it. Statism ideas so good they have to be enforced at the barrel of a gun...thank goodness my kids will learn the truth about ole lincoln the tyrant.


----------



## jillian

squeeze berry said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> you can always look the other way if you don't like it.
> 
> Your rights end where someone else's begins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody has questioned your individual right to declare your racism
> 
> It is when you insist that schools and government agencies support your racism that it becomes an issue
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> and no one is questioning your right to declare your racism either
Click to expand...


it isn't racism to point out others' racism.

it's impressive how racists like trying that little scam, though.


----------



## squeeze berry

Gadawg73 said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The confederate flag is a symbol of the most casualties ( 750,000 ) the US has ever sustained in a War.
> 
> But wars have profound economic, demographic and social costs, he went on. Were seeing at least 37,000 more widows here, and 90,000 more orphans. Thats a profound social impact, and its our duty to get it right.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/s...cent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> From February 1864 until the end of the American Civil War (1861-65) in April 1865, Andersonville, Georgia, served as the site of a notorious Confederate military prison. The prison at Andersonville, officially called Camp Sumter, was the South's largest prison for captured Union soldiers and known for its unhealthy conditions and high death rate. In all, approximately *13,000 Union prisoners perished at Andersonville*, and following the war its commander, Captain Henry Wirz (1823-65), was tried, convicted and executed for war crimes.
> Andersonville &mdash; History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts
> 
> There Confederate Flag is the symbol of the worst period of our history.
> Nothing to ever be proud about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the war was not necessary.
> 
> Lincoln could have let them go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And all the southern states would have obeyed his command.
Click to expand...


Licoln could have let them secede. 

Virginia, North Carolna, Tennessee and Arkansas might have remained in the union.


----------



## squeeze berry

jillian said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody has questioned your individual right to declare your racism
> 
> It is when you insist that schools and government agencies support your racism that it becomes an issue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and no one is questioning your right to declare your racism either
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it isn't racism to point out others' racism.
> 
> it's impressive how racists like trying that little scam, though.
Click to expand...


IMO saying that the confederate flag is a symbol of racism is racist


----------



## WillowTree

jillian said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody has questioned your individual right to declare your racism
> 
> It is when you insist that schools and government agencies support your racism that it becomes an issue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and no one is questioning your right to declare your racism either
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it isn't racism to point out others' racism.
> 
> it's impressive how racists like trying that little scam, though.
Click to expand...


It's impressive to me that you believe the falsiities you spew. The civil war was a war of states rights. Some of the southern states wanted to secede from the union. Slave holders lived in the northern and western states also. Did you know the AMerican indian tribes had slaves?


----------



## rightwinger

WillowTree said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> and no one is questioning your right to declare your racism either
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it isn't racism to point out others' racism.
> 
> it's impressive how racists like trying that little scam, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's impressive to me that you believe the falsiities you spew. The civil war was a war of states rights. Some of the southern states wanted to secede from the union. Slave holders lived in the northern and western states also. Did you know the AMerican indian tribes had slaves?
Click to expand...


Yea.....a war to protect a states right to allow slavery

The Confederate Constitution was for the most part identical to the US Constitution with one notable exception......It gave you a Constitutional right to own slaves


----------



## squeeze berry

rightwinger said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> it isn't racism to point out others' racism.
> 
> it's impressive how racists like trying that little scam, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's impressive to me that you believe the falsiities you spew. The civil war was a war of states rights. Some of the southern states wanted to secede from the union. Slave holders lived in the northern and western states also. Did you know the AMerican indian tribes had slaves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea.....a war to protect a states right to allow slavery
> 
> The Confederate Constitution was for the most part identical to the US Constitution with one notable exception......It gave you a Constitutional right to own slaves
Click to expand...


you can not say that about 4 states that seceded and three of those states supplied major armies to the confederacy


----------



## rightwinger

squeeze berry said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's impressive to me that you believe the falsiities you spew. The civil war was a war of states rights. Some of the southern states wanted to secede from the union. Slave holders lived in the northern and western states also. Did you know the AMerican indian tribes had slaves?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea.....a war to protect a states right to allow slavery
> 
> The Confederate Constitution was for the most part identical to the US Constitution with one notable exception......It gave you a Constitutional right to own slaves
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you can not say that about 4 states that seceded and three of those states supplied major armies to the confederacy
Click to expand...


Slavery in the Permanent Confederate Constitution « Civil War Emancipation

_  Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 made slaves a sancrosanct type of property within the Confederacy, with special protection under law. &#8220;No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.&#8220;

_


----------



## sakinago

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody broke into homes of the Irish in the middle of the night to drag off and lynch a family member wearing a Mickey Mouse hat. If they did, that hat would be offensive to the Irish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What? Im sorry this statement does not make sense to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not surprised
Click to expand...


Its because the statement doesn't make sense, I could have been a lot more impolite about it, but this is the free debate zone. Why would #1 an irish person wear the mickey hat if it was symbol of prejudice against them? #2 why would someone prejudice towards the irish break into their house and lynch them for wearing a symbol that is prejudice towards them?


----------



## OohPooPahDoo

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



Its a symbol of immature southern frat boys


----------



## sakinago

OohPooPahDoo said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a symbol of immature southern frat boys
Click to expand...


Id agree with that statement.


----------



## rightwinger

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> What? Im sorry this statement does not make sense to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not surprised
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its because the statement doesn't make sense, I could have been a lot more impolite about it, but this is the free debate zone. Why would #1 an irish person wear the mickey hat if it was symbol of prejudice against them? #2 why would someone prejudice towards the irish break into their house and lynch them for wearing a symbol that is prejudice towards them?
Click to expand...


More clueless than I originally thought

It is OTHER people wearing the hat when they lynch you
Just like it was OTHER people waving the confederate flag


----------



## rightwinger

Just'a good ol' boys
Never meanin' no harm.
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born


----------



## Gadawg73

OohPooPahDoo said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a symbol of immature southern frat boys
Click to expand...


KKK and other Aryan nation hate groups are far more active these days in the midwest and northwest than in the south.


----------



## WillowTree

rightwinger said:


> Just'a good ol' boys
> Never meanin' no harm.
> Beats all you never saw
> Been in trouble with the law
> Since the day they was born



Democrats. It's shameful.


----------



## squeeze berry

rightwinger said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea.....a war to protect a states right to allow slavery
> 
> The Confederate Constitution was for the most part identical to the US Constitution with one notable exception......It gave you a Constitutional right to own slaves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can not say that about 4 states that seceded and three of those states supplied major armies to the confederacy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Slavery in the Permanent Confederate Constitution « Civil War Emancipation
> 
> _  Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 made slaves a sancrosanct type of property within the Confederacy, with special protection under law. No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
> 
> _
Click to expand...


why did VA, AR, TN and NC secede?


----------



## squeeze berry

Gadawg73 said:


> OohPooPahDoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a symbol of immature southern frat boys
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> KKK and other Aryan nation hate groups are far more active these days in the midwest and northwest than in the south.
Click to expand...


never saw a KKK member in my life.

have you?


----------



## sakinago

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not surprised
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its because the statement doesn't make sense, I could have been a lot more impolite about it, but this is the free debate zone. Why would #1 an irish person wear the mickey hat if it was symbol of prejudice against them? #2 why would someone prejudice towards the irish break into their house and lynch them for wearing a symbol that is prejudice towards them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More clueless than I originally thought
> 
> It is OTHER people wearing the hat when they lynch you
> Just like it was OTHER people waving the confederate flag
Click to expand...


Thank you for proving my point. No one gets upset about mickey mouse, or about the christian cross (except for vampires, and when its on government property). These were once symbols or relics of bad parts in human history, but have taken on a different meaning. There are other examples of this. Take for instance the N-word, very derogatory back in the day, and when used by the wrong people, can still be very derogatory today (just like confederate flag). Yet for many blacks, most notably the fans of hip-hop culture, the N-word has taken on a different meaning. It is kind of hard to hear an uncensored rap song that does not use the n-word.  If you were to place strict meaning on the n-word (like you are on the confederate flag) as solely a racist word, then there would be many black people you would have to say that are racist against blacks. You obviously dont hear that because the statement is ridiculous. Just because you can argue that back then the confederate flag was a symbol of slavery (functional word being argue), does not mean that it will never take on a different meaning. To many people, the confederate flag says to them, the southern way of living is the best.


----------



## thanatos144

The Confederate flag is the symbol of failure of slave owning pussies.


----------



## Gadawg73

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its because the statement doesn't make sense, I could have been a lot more impolite about it, but this is the free debate zone. Why would #1 an irish person wear the mickey hat if it was symbol of prejudice against them? #2 why would someone prejudice towards the irish break into their house and lynch them for wearing a symbol that is prejudice towards them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More clueless than I originally thought
> 
> It is OTHER people wearing the hat when they lynch you
> Just like it was OTHER people waving the confederate flag
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for proving my point. No one gets upset about mickey mouse, or about the christian cross (except for vampires, and when its on government property). These were once symbols or relics of bad parts in human history, but have taken on a different meaning. There are other examples of this. Take for instance the N-word, very derogatory back in the day, and when used by the wrong people, can still be very derogatory today (just like confederate flag). Yet for many blacks, most notably the fans of hip-hop culture, the N-word has taken on a different meaning. It is kind of hard to hear an uncensored rap song that does not use the n-word.  If you were to place strict meaning on the n-word (like you are on the confederate flag) as solely a racist word, then there would be many black people you would have to say that are racist against blacks. You obviously dont hear that because the statement is ridiculous. Just because you can argue that back then the confederate flag was a symbol of slavery (functional word being argue), does not mean that it will never take on a different meaning. To many people, the confederate flag says to them, the southern way of living is the best.
Click to expand...


"when used by the wrong people" 

You are a scream there Moe. Gang bang rappers calling women whores and bitches, advocating ******* being shot with AKs are the "right" people?


----------



## sakinago

Gadawg73 said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> More clueless than I originally thought
> 
> It is OTHER people wearing the hat when they lynch you
> Just like it was OTHER people waving the confederate flag
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for proving my point. No one gets upset about mickey mouse, or about the christian cross (except for vampires, and when its on government property). These were once symbols or relics of bad parts in human history, but have taken on a different meaning. There are other examples of this. Take for instance the N-word, very derogatory back in the day, and when used by the wrong people, can still be very derogatory today (just like confederate flag). Yet for many blacks, most notably the fans of hip-hop culture, the N-word has taken on a different meaning. It is kind of hard to hear an uncensored rap song that does not use the n-word.  If you were to place strict meaning on the n-word (like you are on the confederate flag) as solely a racist word, then there would be many black people you would have to say that are racist against blacks. You obviously dont hear that because the statement is ridiculous. Just because you can argue that back then the confederate flag was a symbol of slavery (functional word being argue), does not mean that it will never take on a different meaning. To many people, the confederate flag says to them, the southern way of living is the best.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "when used by the wrong people"
> 
> You are a scream there Moe. Gang bang rappers calling women whores and bitches, advocating ******* being shot with AKs are the "right" people?
Click to expand...


Uh I dont know what your getting at, but you clearly missed the point, which is the word has taken on a different meaning. And the proof of that is that it is not racist when a black person says it, according to our culture.


----------



## Gadawg73

sakinago said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for proving my point. No one gets upset about mickey mouse, or about the christian cross (except for vampires, and when its on government property). These were once symbols or relics of bad parts in human history, but have taken on a different meaning. There are other examples of this. Take for instance the N-word, very derogatory back in the day, and when used by the wrong people, can still be very derogatory today (just like confederate flag). Yet for many blacks, most notably the fans of hip-hop culture, the N-word has taken on a different meaning. It is kind of hard to hear an uncensored rap song that does not use the n-word.  If you were to place strict meaning on the n-word (like you are on the confederate flag) as solely a racist word, then there would be many black people you would have to say that are racist against blacks. You obviously dont hear that because the statement is ridiculous. Just because you can argue that back then the confederate flag was a symbol of slavery (functional word being argue), does not mean that it will never take on a different meaning. To many people, the confederate flag says to them, the southern way of living is the best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "when used by the wrong people"
> 
> You are a scream there Moe. Gang bang rappers calling women whores and bitches, advocating ******* being shot with AKs are the "right" people?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uh I dont know what your getting at, but you clearly missed the point, which is the word has taken on a different meaning. And the proof of that is that it is not racist when a black person says it, according to our culture.
Click to expand...


Then your culture is fucked up.


----------



## Gadawg73

thanatos144 said:


> The Confederate flag is the symbol of failure of slave owning pussies.



The Confederate flag was not the flag of the west Africans that rounded up and sold their own people into bondage which still goes on to this day.
My Quaker ancestors fought against slavery from Clintondale NY and assisted with the underground railroad. One can look at the records there now and see The Friends church there with the Walker and Terhune families that I am descended from on my mother's side.
The white man was primarily the backer of the African slave trade but many African tribes cooperated greatly and assisted for the cash.


----------



## sakinago

Gadawg73 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Confederate flag is the symbol of failure of slave owning pussies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Confederate flag was not the flag of the west Africans that rounded up and sold their own people into bondage which still goes on to this day.
> My Quaker ancestors fought against slavery from Clintondale NY and assisted with the underground railroad. One can look at the records there now and see The Friends church there with the Walker and Terhune families that I am descended from on my mother's side.
> The white man was primarily the backer of the African slave trade but many African tribes cooperated greatly and assisted for the cash.
Click to expand...


And dont forget that many whites gave their lives to free black slaves that they have never meet.


----------



## rightwinger

sakinago said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its because the statement doesn't make sense, I could have been a lot more impolite about it, but this is the free debate zone. Why would #1 an irish person wear the mickey hat if it was symbol of prejudice against them? #2 why would someone prejudice towards the irish break into their house and lynch them for wearing a symbol that is prejudice towards them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More clueless than I originally thought
> 
> It is OTHER people wearing the hat when they lynch you
> Just like it was OTHER people waving the confederate flag
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for proving my point. No one gets upset about mickey mouse, or about the christian cross (except for vampires, and when its on government property). These were once symbols or relics of bad parts in human history, but have taken on a different meaning. There are other examples of this. Take for instance the N-word, very derogatory back in the day, and when used by the wrong people, can still be very derogatory today (just like confederate flag). Yet for many blacks, most notably the fans of hip-hop culture, the N-word has taken on a different meaning. It is kind of hard to hear an uncensored rap song that does not use the n-word.  If you were to place strict meaning on the n-word (like you are on the confederate flag) as solely a racist word, then there would be many black people you would have to say that are racist against blacks. You obviously dont hear that because the statement is ridiculous. Just because you can argue that back then the confederate flag was a symbol of slavery (functional word being argue), does not mean that it will never take on a different meaning. To many people, the confederate flag says to them, the southern way of living is the best.
Click to expand...


Blacks are allowed to use the n-word....whites are not


----------



## elvis




----------



## sakinago

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> More clueless than I originally thought
> 
> It is OTHER people wearing the hat when they lynch you
> Just like it was OTHER people waving the confederate flag
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for proving my point. No one gets upset about mickey mouse, or about the christian cross (except for vampires, and when its on government property). These were once symbols or relics of bad parts in human history, but have taken on a different meaning. There are other examples of this. Take for instance the N-word, very derogatory back in the day, and when used by the wrong people, can still be very derogatory today (just like confederate flag). Yet for many blacks, most notably the fans of hip-hop culture, the N-word has taken on a different meaning. It is kind of hard to hear an uncensored rap song that does not use the n-word.  If you were to place strict meaning on the n-word (like you are on the confederate flag) as solely a racist word, then there would be many black people you would have to say that are racist against blacks. You obviously dont hear that because the statement is ridiculous. Just because you can argue that back then the confederate flag was a symbol of slavery (functional word being argue), does not mean that it will never take on a different meaning. To many people, the confederate flag says to them, the southern way of living is the best.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Blacks are allowed to use the n-word....whites are not
Click to expand...


Whats your point? The meaning of the word has changed, thats my point. Address that.


----------



## emilynghiem

tinydancer said:


> But here is the most important part.
> 
> How America rose above so many other countries healing past conflicts.
> 
> But people can not, shall not, must not wipe it out. It is history. And history is a subtle weaving of facts and legends.




Dear TD: Thank you for this. it reminds me of how the historic commission groups in Texas are able to include the Hispanic and Mexican American history and heroes right along with the Texas and American history, and there is no need for conflict, just respect for history.

When I read about how Santa Ana was granted mercy after Texas won independence, I just wish we had that kind of civility and respect today. We have good relations with Great Britain today, but how many countries can say the same thing following their revolutions.

We aren't quite there yet with the African American history, where even the historic churches in my neighborhood are allowed to burn down, and people are pressured NOT to defend the national history but to wipe it out. Also the people of African descent were voted out of some the Native American tribes, and that caused a huge problem not resolved yet.

We cannot rush the stages of grief, recovery and healing; but just provide a free and safe environment for people to go through their stages of development and support the process.
That is one strength that I see American culture provides, if people use these tools for good!


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Why should I give a shit if somebody wants to display a Confederate flag, or an Irish flag, or a Mexican flag. I don't get why people get so upset about this kind of thing. Now, on the other hand, we do live in the U.S., and if somebody wants to fly a flag in front of their house of another country, that's okay with me, but I think it is reasonable to require the U.S. flag to fly above it, as it is viewable by the public. If somebody wants to display a flag from another country, past or present, within their home in prominence that's their business.

I got into a mild ideological debate with a coworker once over this very topic. He grew up in Texas, but now lives in Arizona. He is constantly complaining about how things are in Arizona, and how much better things are done in Texas, and how much better Texas is. It's slightly annoying, but ultimately it doesn't bother me much. However, in the same day he will complain about people from other countries displaying a flag from their country, or coming to the U.S. as immigrants and talking about their own country, or failing to do what he sees as assimilating to the customs of the U.S. The debate stemmed from me having heard these two contradicting diatribes one too many times and asking him if would just move back to Texas if he loved it so much. I didn't really care, actually, but it was just such a glaring contradiction.

People have certain cultural attachments. Who cares? Hell, I knew a black man when I served in the Navy who was from Louisiana who displayed a Confederate flag in his home. As strange as that struck me when I first saw it, I soon realized it was nothing more than a cultural identification of where he was from. My in-laws who are from Ireland fly a U.S. flag in the front of their house, with an Irish flag right under it. Yet if somebody were to fly a Mexican flag with a U.S. flag in the same manner, people would have a larger problem with it. I do not. People immigrate/emigrate, and they hold onto parts of where they are from. It is not necessarily an insult to the U.S., or to any particular race or culture, to do so.


----------



## squeeze berry

rightwinger said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> More clueless than I originally thought
> 
> It is OTHER people wearing the hat when they lynch you
> Just like it was OTHER people waving the confederate flag
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for proving my point. No one gets upset about mickey mouse, or about the christian cross (except for vampires, and when its on government property). These were once symbols or relics of bad parts in human history, but have taken on a different meaning. There are other examples of this. Take for instance the N-word, very derogatory back in the day, and when used by the wrong people, can still be very derogatory today (just like confederate flag). Yet for many blacks, most notably the fans of hip-hop culture, the N-word has taken on a different meaning. It is kind of hard to hear an uncensored rap song that does not use the n-word.  If you were to place strict meaning on the n-word (like you are on the confederate flag) as solely a racist word, then there would be many black people you would have to say that are racist against blacks. You obviously dont hear that because the statement is ridiculous. Just because you can argue that back then the confederate flag was a symbol of slavery (functional word being argue), does not mean that it will never take on a different meaning. To many people, the confederate flag says to them, the southern way of living is the best.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Blacks are allowed to use the n-word....whites are not
Click to expand...


so then blacks are not allowed to use the words
cracker
pink ears
honky 
snowflake
whitey
etc


----------



## Bigfoot

To me the Confederate flag is a symbol of the brave men and women who fought and died for it. May God bless our nation and all Americans!


----------



## Bigfoot

rightwinger said:


> Blacks are allowed to use the n-word....whites are not



..and that is so stupid.


----------



## alan1

midcan5 said:


> The confederate flag in the minds of many people has the same connotations as the swastika has. You can argue different meanings, but to blacks and most whites, it is a symbol of slavery and hatred. Can you change the swastika back to its original symbolism, neither can you change the Confederate flag back for history doesn't disappear because it is unpleasant. People who imagine another meaning for the flag should recognize the fact the flag has stood for intolerance and hatred and that use continues today. Because some who fly the flag do not hate does not change anything in the minds and perceptions of others. One wonders how tolerant the defenders would be if a nation of Islam flag showed up.



Yet, the country that is currently using the flag of the USA held slaves (and used slaves) much longer than the Confederacy ever did.
I'm not agreeing with slavery, just pointing out a fact that you seem to be unaware of.


----------



## Missourian

This has very little to do with slavery,  and very much to do with northerners contempt for all things Southern.

We get it,  you don't like us...we don't care.


----------



## rightwinger

Missourian said:


> This has very little to do with slavery,  and very much to do with northerners contempt for all things Southern.
> 
> We get it,  you don't like us...we don't care.



Yea...

Next thing ya know they will be banning country music, rotgut beer, Waffle Houses and marrying your cousin.


----------



## Missourian

rightwinger said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has very little to do with slavery,  and very much to do with northerners contempt for all things Southern.
> 
> We get it,  you don't like us...we don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea...
> 
> Next thing ya know they will be banning country music, rotgut beer, Waffle Houses and marrying your cousin.
Click to expand...


I see you didn't waste any time proving my point.

I sincerely appreciate your expeditiousness .


----------



## thanatos144

Missourian said:


> This has very little to do with slavery,  and very much to do with northerners contempt for all things Southern.
> 
> We get it,  you don't like us...we don't care.



Only a idiot thinks southern still means confederate.....


----------



## Missourian

thanatos144 said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has very little to do with slavery,  and very much to do with northerners contempt for all things Southern.
> 
> We get it,  you don't like us...we don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only a idiot thinks southern still means confederate.
Click to expand...


The Stars and Bars is still the symbol of the south and southern heritage and culture.

Northerners hate the fact the South still stands together.

Get over it.


----------



## thanatos144

Missourian said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has very little to do with slavery,  and very much to do with northerners contempt for all things Southern.
> 
> We get it,  you don't like us...we don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only a idiot thinks southern still means confederate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Stars and Bars is still the symbol of the south and southern heritage and culture.
> 
> Northerners hate the fact the South still stands together.
> 
> Get over it.
Click to expand...


Like said only a idiot.


----------



## Missourian

thanatos144 said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only a idiot thinks southern still means confederate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Stars and Bars is still the symbol of the south and southern heritage and culture.
> 
> Northerners hate the fact the South still stands together.
> 
> Get over it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like said only a idiot.
Click to expand...



Way to prove your point,  weak name calling.

Better luck next time.


----------



## Gadawg73

sakinago said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Confederate flag is the symbol of failure of slave owning pussies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Confederate flag was not the flag of the west Africans that rounded up and sold their own people into bondage which still goes on to this day.
> My Quaker ancestors fought against slavery from Clintondale NY and assisted with the underground railroad. One can look at the records there now and see The Friends church there with the Walker and Terhune families that I am descended from on my mother's side.
> The white man was primarily the backer of the African slave trade but many African tribes cooperated greatly and assisted for the cash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And dont forget that many whites gave their lives to free black slaves that they have never meet.
Click to expand...


Good point but conscription was where most of the union troops came from after the initial enlistments. Immigrants were taken at gun point off of ships in NY harbor and forced to fight for the union.


----------



## Gadawg73

Missourian does make a good point with many in the north having contempt for us southerners.
I have many relatives up north and many have moved down here over the last 30 years.
"Where is a good butcher" "Where is a good laundry" and all kinds of bitching and moaning.
But they keep coming in droves because union shop states, corrupt politicians up north and falling apart infrastructure up north send them here.
And they love our beautiful women, new and kept roads, affordable cost of living and weather down here. 
But we love folks from the north down here when they show up with their football teams as we normally beat them.
We accept and welcome everyone here. However, when we go up north not the case with them accepting us all the time. 
Okay for them to butcher the hell out of the English language yet when one of us does it we are hicks. 
Add in liberal media and TV where they always depict us southerners as dumb asses.

But for those that keep bitching and moaning Delta is ready when you are.


----------



## rightwinger

Gadawg73 said:


> Missourian does make a good point with many in the north having contempt for us southerners.
> I have many relatives up north and many have moved down here over the last 30 years.
> "Where is a good butcher" "Where is a good laundry" and all kinds of bitching and moaning.
> But they keep coming in droves because union shop states, corrupt politicians up north and falling apart infrastructure up north send them here.
> And they love our beautiful women, new and kept roads, affordable cost of living and weather down here.
> But we love folks from the north down here when they show up with their football teams as we normally beat them.
> We accept and welcome everyone here. However, when we go up north not the case with them accepting us all the time.
> Okay for them to butcher the hell out of the English language yet when one of us does it we are hicks.
> Add in liberal media and TV where they always depict us southerners as dumb asses.
> 
> But for those that keep bitching and moaning Delta is ready when you are.



It's not the butcher

It's the god damn Pizza


----------



## Missourian

rightwinger said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea...
> 
> Next thing ya know they will be banning country music, rotgut beer, Waffle Houses and marrying your cousin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see you didn't waste any time proving my point.
> 
> I sincerely appreciate your expeditiousness .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Listen Goober
> 
> We get tired of your victimization
> 
> Just because the rest of the country looks at you as backwoods, dimwitted and uncultured
> 
> Honey Boo Boo anyone?
Click to expand...



Ah,  ah,  ah,  be careful RW...your bigotry is showing.

Hate to to burst your superiority bubble...in order to be victims,  we'd have to care what you...I mean...uh..."they"....thought.

So,  does out make you feel like a big man to demean,  and insult people because they are different than you.

Looks like you have more in common with the KKK you've been railing against in this thread than you previously supposed.


----------



## Gadawg73

rightwinger said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian does make a good point with many in the north having contempt for us southerners.
> I have many relatives up north and many have moved down here over the last 30 years.
> "Where is a good butcher" "Where is a good laundry" and all kinds of bitching and moaning.
> But they keep coming in droves because union shop states, corrupt politicians up north and falling apart infrastructure up north send them here.
> And they love our beautiful women, new and kept roads, affordable cost of living and weather down here.
> But we love folks from the north down here when they show up with their football teams as we normally beat them.
> We accept and welcome everyone here. However, when we go up north not the case with them accepting us all the time.
> Okay for them to butcher the hell out of the English language yet when one of us does it we are hicks.
> Add in liberal media and TV where they always depict us southerners as dumb asses.
> 
> But for those that keep bitching and moaning Delta is ready when you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not the butcher
> 
> It's the god damn Pizza
Click to expand...


LOL, yes, hard to find good pizza here but who cares.
We have BBQ hog sammiches!


----------



## rightwinger

Gadawg73 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian does make a good point with many in the north having contempt for us southerners.
> I have many relatives up north and many have moved down here over the last 30 years.
> "Where is a good butcher" "Where is a good laundry" and all kinds of bitching and moaning.
> But they keep coming in droves because union shop states, corrupt politicians up north and falling apart infrastructure up north send them here.
> And they love our beautiful women, new and kept roads, affordable cost of living and weather down here.
> But we love folks from the north down here when they show up with their football teams as we normally beat them.
> We accept and welcome everyone here. However, when we go up north not the case with them accepting us all the time.
> Okay for them to butcher the hell out of the English language yet when one of us does it we are hicks.
> Add in liberal media and TV where they always depict us southerners as dumb asses.
> 
> But for those that keep bitching and moaning Delta is ready when you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not the butcher
> 
> It's the god damn Pizza
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL, yes, hard to find good pizza here but who cares.
> We have BBQ hog sammiches!
Click to expand...


I do crave southern BBQ


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

rightwinger said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not the butcher
> 
> It's the god damn Pizza
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, yes, hard to find good pizza here but who cares.
> We have BBQ hog sammiches!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do crave southern BBQ
Click to expand...


Mmmmm. Which kind? My own preference is for Memphis style.


----------



## William Joyce

oldfart said:


> sakinago said:
> 
> 
> 
> how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually a pretty good question.  In the 50's, 60's, and early 70's white resistance in the South was led by White Citizen's Councils where "respectable" segregationists in public office and the business community tried to slow or reverse desegregation.  The local muscle to rough up Freedom Riders and shoot into occupied houses and burn churches was delegated to the Klan.  In a typical Southern county the White Citizens Council normally included the Sheriff, Chief of Police, Mayor, President of the Bank, County Superintendent of Schools and so forth.  The Chief Deputy was often the Klan head, supported by all the good ol' boys he went to school with.
> 
> The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites were lynched between 1882 and 1968.  The last full public lynching in the South was probably Emmett Till in Mississippi in 1955.  After that, people were killed (Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner in 1964 for example) in racially motivated slayings, but these more nearly resembled assassinations or mob hits rather than traditional lynchings.  In the decade from 2000 to 2009 a number of high profile cases which had ended in hung juries were retried and convictions obtained.
> 
> So to answer, there are probably two or three dozen inmates in prison today serving long sentences for racially motivated murder, attempted murder, arson, and similar violent
> crimes.  I believe six of them are there for trying to kill Morris Dees.  To the best of my knowledge, all of them were members of the KKK or a successor white supremacy organization such as Aryan Nation, or had close ties to such organizations.  The traditional meeting place is the Stormfront.org  website.
Click to expand...


And today, the victims of racial violence are WHITES, not blacks.

But since the media doesn't report on that, and the left doesn't care, and the Holder Justice Dept. never heard of the Black Panthers, it's all down the memory hole...


----------



## Aristotle

Ah, here we go poor whites are the victims of racism. Well let me tell you this. If you're white, and your a victim of racism welcome to my world, and my parents world, and my grandparents world, and my great great parents world and my great great great parents world, and my great great great great great........

The confederacy was anything but a symbol of rejecting tyranny and if it was, it was an inherent contradictory symbol. Why should you defend a flag used against supposed tyranny when white southerners were tyrants themselves against blacks?


----------



## oldfart

William Joyce said:


> And today, the victims of racial violence are WHITES, not blacks.
> 
> But since the media doesn't report on that, and the left doesn't care, and the Holder Justice Dept. never heard of the Black Panthers, it's all down the memory hole...



Piffle.  You just admitted you have no numbers to back up your false assertion.  You have no reports from the Bush administration Justice Department?  No statistics from liberal bastions like Texas?


----------



## longknife

Let's first put some things in perspective:

The Civil War DID NOT start over slavery!!! It was a matter of certain states angry over the federal government's telling them what they could and could not do, mostly in matters of selling their goods. Slavery was used as nothing but a political ploy to raise emotions and recruits for the North.

Second, the KKK did not start as just a racist organization but was initially formed to oust the Carpetbaggers who were raping their economy and trying to take their political choices away. They DID become a very racist group - as well as being quite anti-Semite and Catholic. And don't forget, His Royal Highness Robert Byrd, D-WVA, who served longer than any other Senator was a member of the KKK!

The Battle Flag is nothing more than a symbol of one's pride in The South, a special section of this nation that has suffered great poverty for decades but where people still work hard and are proud of their efforts.  I do not think the majority of Southerners are racists.

Now, if you want a truly racist symbol, check out this -


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Aristotle said:


> Ah, here we go poor whites are the victims of racism. Well let me tell you this. If you're white, and your a victim of racism welcome to my world, and my parents world, and my grandparents world, and my great great parents world and my great great great parents world, and my great great great great great........
> 
> The confederacy was anything but a symbol of rejecting tyranny and if it was, it was an inherent contradictory symbol. Why should you defend a flag used against supposed tyranny when white southerners were tyrants themselves against blacks?
> 
> 
> View attachment 22125
> 
> View attachment 22126
> 
> View attachment 22127



Now you are just posting inflammatory drivel meant to imply that the Confederate flag is akin to the Nazi flag in what it represents. I am not a southerner, but I have known many, from different parts of the south, and I have known them to be much more culturally complex than you may acknowledge, and for many, the flag is a cultural symbol rather than a political or dogmatic one, and thus symbolic of something that is difficult for those outside of the south to understand. My ancestors are from Kentucky and the lower mid-west, so I suppose I have some mild cultural tie to it, and perhaps that is why I am a little more empathetic. 

If you want to post pictures of Klansmen holding a Confederate flag while giving the Bellamy salute nobody can stop you, but your limited perspective and your agenda are pretty transparent, to me at least. Clearly you view the Confederate flag as no different than the Nazi flag. Nobody can stop you from feeling that way, but it is not an appropriate comparison. The Nazi flag had zero cultural significance, and was every bit a political symbol. In fact, it did much to erase or marginalize German culture, which was very unfortunate for all of us because of many of the wonderful things about German culture. The Confederate flag is a much more complex symbol than the Nazi flag, and to suggest such a comparison is silly.


----------



## oldfart

longknife said:


> The Civil War DID NOT start over slavery!!! It was a matter of certain states angry over the federal government's telling them what they could and could not do, mostly in matters of selling their goods. Slavery was used as nothing but a political ploy to raise emotions and recruits for the North.
> 
> Second, the KKK did not start as just a racist organization but was initially formed to oust the Carpetbaggers who were raping their economy and trying to take their political choices away. They DID become a very racist group - as well as being quite anti-Semite and Catholic. And don't forget, His Royal Highness Robert Byrd, D-WVA, who served longer than any other Senator was a member of the KKK!
> 
> The Battle Flag is nothing more than a symbol of one's pride in The South, a special section of this nation that has suffered great poverty for decades but where people still work hard and are proud of their efforts.  I do not think the majority of Southerners are racists.



How did the koolaid taste?  Nice cartoon though.


----------



## jwoodie

*I am disturbed by the constant references to the Swastika and (neo)Nazis, who are a tiny group of imbeciles who don't even understand the principles (sic) of the Nazi Party.  Hitler considered the U.S. to be a "mongrel" nation unfit for Aryan supremacy, so any talk of white purity or superiority in our country is ludicrous.*


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

jwoodie said:


> *I am disturbed by the constant references to the Swastika and (neo)Nazis, who are a tiny group of imbeciles who don't even understand the principles (sic) of the Nazi Party.  Hitler considered the U.S. to be a "mongrel" nation unfit for Aryan supremacy, so any talk of white purity or superiority in our country is ludicrous.*



I agree. My post above was meant to address an obvious comparison being made by Aristotle, and to suggest to him that he may be oversimplifying things.


----------



## Toronado3800

A confederate flag is a symbol of loss, lack of education and racism in my eyes.  Something about being a Virginian instead of an American I suppose.  If you supoort that flag next time you identify your nationality overseas refer to yourself as a Nevadan or Utahanarian or Mississipan.


----------



## PaulS1950

The confederacy was formed in an act of war, illegally begun by Lincoln (without a full vote of congress), to "keep the union intact at all costs". It was a federal mandate that the states did not have the right to leave the union. 
Slavery wasn't even brought into it until the war was almost won by the Confederacy.

Slavery was wrong on so many levels but the war started because the southern plantation owners were unable to get a fair price for their goods in the USA and the feds (to protect their source of cotton and tobacco) would not let them trade on the world market. You "believers" that the war was a just fight against slavery need to go back and look at the history. Many land-owners in the north had slaves, including Andrew Jackson. 
There may be another war coming on the right to leave the union but this time it will be worse because there will be more states involved. Texas has the right to quit in their constitution and there have been others that have incorporated the right into their constitutions. States rights issues are blossoming again.


----------



## zed42

You do realize that the Civil War was not started to abolish slavery.  The Civil War was started over secession, if a State had the right to secede from the Union.  In the early part of the war Lincoln wrote a letter that was published in the NY Times.  Lincoln said that he would save the Union any way he could.  If it could be saved without freeing any slave, by freeing all slaves, or by freeing some and leaving others alone he would do so.  As a matter of fact, during the first part of the war, if a Union Officer came across an escaped slave, by law he had to return the slave to the owner.  The Emancipation Proclamation was first brought forth by President Lincoln in a speech on Sept 22, 1862 and wasn't effective until Jan 1, 1863.  The Civil War basically started Jan 1 1861.  So, is the Confederate Flag a symbol of the perceived rights of States or of slavery?  Yes, the States that seceded from the Union did so because of the question of slavery.  But what did the "Stars & Bars" represent to the Confederate soldier, that is the question.


----------



## PaulS1950

Zed, I understand that you belive that slavery was an issue that started the civil war but that doesn't change the facts. It was begun over states sovereignty issues. Namely the right of a state to sell goods on a world market instead of to the country of origin to make a fair price. To do that the states had to secede. The feds would not allow the export of cotton and tobacco. The war started when Fort Sumter told the Confederate ship that they were going to open fire upon them. In response the ship fired a "first" shot (premptive defense) round from a ten inch mortar that burst 100 feet over the fort - according to an eye-witness (Stephen Lee) on the day of the exchange. 
The ships commander had requested a date that the men would leave the fort that was on sovereign state land. The fort commander said that if he waited a few days that the men at the fort would be starved to death. The commander of the fort then sent a message that before that happened the fort would fire on the ship with every gun at its disposal. The fear of that exchange is what prompted the ships captain to fire. If the occupying force of the federal army had left there would never have been a war at all.


----------



## PaulS1950

Jimmy,
Lincoln acted unlawfully and voided the very constitution he swore to uphold and protect by declaring war on the confederacy. He did not have the majority vote of congress to declare war, he had no power to compell the states to remain as part of the union.
The war was a power play by a man who was unwilling to allow free trade or be known as the president that let the union to split up. ALL EGO and GREED.
Any and ALL states that no longer wish to be a part of the USA have and should announce their right to secede. Take the matter to the supreme court and then see how the feds treatment of the states changes. 
The USA lost more than soldiers in the war between the states - we lost states sovereignty rights and we have lost more rights and freedoms since. We have been on that slippery slope so long that it seems level to the sheeple in the USA. The USA has become a dictatorship concealed in representative democracy. It was initially a full republic with guaranteed rights and freedoms and the goverment was setup to protect those rights and freedoms. Now we have 10s of millions of unlawfull searches every day in this country, free speech is conditional, people are told to incriminate themselves to insure the safety of LEOs, and the only thing that protects all the rights we have is being terminated one little piece at a time. Once we lose our right to keep and bear arms we will lose everything.
All because one man couldn't allow the constitution to stand and let those states that wanted to secede  do so. 
The USA has been getting sicker for a very long time. I wonder if we, THE PEOPLE, have what it takes to take it back.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

PaulS1950 said:


> Jimmy,
> Lincoln acted unlawfully and voided the very constitution he swore to uphold and protect by declaring war on the confederacy. He did not have the majority vote of congress to declare war, he had no power to compell the states to remain as part of the union.
> The war was a power play by a man who was unwilling to allow free trade or be known as the president that let the union to split up. ALL EGO and GREED.
> Any and ALL states that no longer wish to be a part of the USA have and should announce their right to secede. Take the matter to the supreme court and then see how the feds treatment of the states changes.
> The USA lost more than soldiers in the war between the states - we lost states sovereignty rights and we have lost more rights and freedoms since. We have been on that slippery slope so long that it seems level to the sheeple in the USA. The USA has become a dictatorship concealed in representative democracy. It was initially a full republic with guaranteed rights and freedoms and the goverment was setup to protect those rights and freedoms. Now we have 10s of millions of unlawfull searches every day in this country, free speech is conditional, people are told to incriminate themselves to insure the safety of LEOs, and the only thing that protects all the rights we have is being terminated one little piece at a time. Once we lose our right to keep and bear arms we will lose everything.
> All because one man couldn't allow the constitution to stand and let those states that wanted to secede  do so.
> The USA has been getting sicker for a very long time. I wonder if we, THE PEOPLE, have what it takes to take it back.



I'm not getting into a debate over whether or not states should be allowed to secede. While I am certain that in the vast majority of cases a secession would be a detriment to both the nation and the state that secedes, I am not fundamentally opposed to it. My point was that I recognize that the Civil War was not started over slavery. It simply became an issue because it had to be dealt with anyway. Slavery would have been abolished eventually anyway, whether you view Lincoln as tyrannical or not. As you have already pointed out, the only people that stood to lose in the abolition of slavery were the aristocrats of both sides anyway. The soldiers mostly didn't care, and the issue of slavery was indeed pushed by Lincoln. 

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into a debate with you over it. I was originally just saying that the Confederate flag is symbolic of a lot of things, and I was accusing Aristotle of oversimplifying things. That's all.


----------



## zed42

PaulS1950 said:


> Zed, I understand that you belive that slavery was an issue that started the civil war but that doesn't change the facts. It was begun over states sovereignty issues. Namely the right of a state to sell goods on a world market instead of to the country of origin to make a fair price. To do that the states had to secede. The feds would not allow the export of cotton and tobacco. The war started when Fort Sumter told the Confederate ship that they were going to open fire upon them. In response the ship fired a "first" shot (premptive defense) round from a ten inch mortar that burst 100 feet over the fort - according to an eye-witness (Stephen Lee) on the day of the exchange.
> The ships commander had requested a date that the men would leave the fort that was on sovereign state land. The fort commander said that if he waited a few days that the men at the fort would be starved to death. The commander of the fort then sent a message that before that happened the fort would fire on the ship with every gun at its disposal. The fear of that exchange is what prompted the ships captain to fire. If the occupying force of the federal army had left there would never have been a war at all.



If you read my post, you will see in the first sentence that I said that the Civil War* was not *started over slavery.  Also,might I suggest a excellent book.  "The Man Who Saved the Union"  Ulysses Grant in war and peace by H.W. Brands.  It covers history from just before the Mexican War though Grant's presidency.   There is considerable amount of information on the active players during this period and the politics of the period.  Book is a little over 600 pages long (standard type)


----------



## Gadawg73

longknife said:


> Let's first put some things in perspective:
> 
> The Civil War DID NOT start over slavery!!! It was a matter of certain states angry over the federal government's telling them what they could and could not do, mostly in matters of selling their goods. Slavery was used as nothing but a political ploy to raise emotions and recruits for the North.
> 
> Second, the KKK did not start as just a racist organization but was initially formed to oust the Carpetbaggers who were raping their economy and trying to take their political choices away. They DID become a very racist group - as well as being quite anti-Semite and Catholic. And don't forget, His Royal Highness Robert Byrd, D-WVA, who served longer than any other Senator was a member of the KKK!
> 
> The Battle Flag is nothing more than a symbol of one's pride in The South, a special section of this nation that has suffered great poverty for decades but where people still work hard and are proud of their efforts.  I do not think the majority of Southerners are racists.
> 
> Now, if you want a truly racist symbol, check out this -



Have you lived in the south 58 years?
You got most of it right but to many down here, and in the 50s when we had integration, the flag is all about white power. Take a look why they changed our state flag in the 50s and you will see it was in defiance to integration.
The flag is still a symbol of white dominance in the south to some, a number that is declining every second.
But they are still here. I heard the "hey boy" stuff in the 70s also here.


----------



## Gadawg73

Toronado3800 said:


> A confederate flag is a symbol of loss, lack of education and racism in my eyes.  Something about being a Virginian instead of an American I suppose.  If you supoort that flag next time you identify your nationality overseas refer to yourself as a Nevadan or Utahanarian or Mississipan.



If you want to talk about lack of education refer to the northern Generals in the civil war. The south had the cream of the crop of West Point grads, more experience in the field and the most educated officers. 
But the north had the economy, the resources, the foundries, the weapons manufacturers, the large banks, manpower, infrastructure, better rails and most importantly, the fortitude. 
If you oppose the hyphenated "American" labels folks put on themselves start with "African" American and get back to us.


----------



## zed42

Toronado3800 said:


> A confederate flag is a symbol of loss, lack of education and racism in my eyes.  Something about being a Virginian instead of an American I suppose.  If you supoort that flag next time you identify your nationality overseas refer to yourself as a Nevadan or Utahanarian or Mississipan.



Not being PC here, but why identify yourself as an African-American or Mexican-American vice plane ole American? I don't see people calling themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, German-American or whatever nationality-American.


----------



## konradv

zed42 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A confederate flag is a symbol of loss, lack of education and racism in my eyes.  Something about being a Virginian instead of an American I suppose.  If you supoort that flag next time you identify your nationality overseas refer to yourself as a Nevadan or Utahanarian or Mississipan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not being PC here, but why identify yourself as an African-American or Mexican-American vice plane ole American? I don't see people calling themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, German-American or whatever nationality-American.
Click to expand...


The Irish American Club of Washington, D.C.

National Italian American Foundation - www.niaf.org

Polish American Cultural Club

You were saying?!?!


----------



## blackhawk

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



That flag means different things to different people it always has and always will.


----------



## oldfart

zed42 said:


> Not being PC here, but why identify yourself as an African-American or Mexican-American vice plane ole American? I don't see people calling themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, German-American or whatever nationality-American.



That depends on what kind of neighborhood you live in.  I grew up in a part of the country where white ethncities had strong identities.  When I taught at a black college, I had a hard time convincing black students that whites in most of the country often identified not as "white" but by ethnicity.  

Quick!  Can you tell a person of Puerto Rican heritage from a Cuban?  How about a Honduran from a Mexican?   Jamaican or Haitian?  German or Polish?  Russian or Norweigan?  Irish or Italian?  Greek or Bulgarian?  Korean or Japanese?  Teton  Sioux from Choctaw?  It can get fun out there.


----------



## thanatos144

The flag is the the symbol of the democrat party and racism. There is no redeeming qualities in a bunch of slave owning traitors .


----------



## candycorn

Missourian said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has very little to do with slavery,  and very much to do with northerners contempt for all things Southern.
> 
> We get it,  you don't like us...we don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only a idiot thinks southern still means confederate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Stars and Bars is still the symbol of the south and southern heritage and culture.
> 
> Northerners hate the fact the South still stands together.
> 
> Get over it.
Click to expand...


Silly post.


----------



## Gadawg73

My neighbor is black and that Confederate flag damn sure does not represent any southern heritage he is proud of.
Same with most of the whites in the south these days.
We are proud of those that fought for the south and gave all as most of them could care less about discriminating.
The modern day flag in many cases is all about hate and violence.
However, a flag does not cause one to hate and has nothing to do with violence.


----------



## Gadawg73

thanatos144 said:


> the flag is the the symbol of the democrat party and racism. There is no redeeming qualities in a bunch of slave owning traitors .



bs


----------



## Gadawg73

oldfart said:


> zed42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not being PC here, but why identify yourself as an African-American or Mexican-American vice plane ole American? I don't see people calling themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, German-American or whatever nationality-American.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on what kind of neighborhood you live in.  I grew up in a part of the country where white ethncities had strong identities.  When I taught at a black college, I had a hard time convincing black students that whites in most of the country often identified not as "white" but by ethnicity.
> 
> Quick!  Can you tell a person of Puerto Rican heritage from a Cuban?  How about a Honduran from a Mexican?   Jamaican or Haitian?  German or Polish?  Russian or Norweigan?  Irish or Italian?  Greek or Bulgarian?  Korean or Japanese?  Teton  Sioux from Choctaw?  It can get fun out there.
Click to expand...


Irish or Italian, Jamaican from a Haitian, Russian or Norwegian? Definitely YES!
German or Polish? Yes
Greek or Bulgarian? Probably
Korean or Japanese? Would be hard.
HOnduran from Mexican? Harder but probably as they are shorter.
Teton Sioux from Choctaw? Nope.
Get your point, good post!


----------



## zed42

oldfart said:


> zed42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not being PC here, but why identify yourself as an African-American or Mexican-American vice plane ole American? I don't see people calling themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, German-American or whatever nationality-American.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on what kind of neighborhood you live in.  I grew up in a part of the country where white ethncities had strong identities.  When I taught at a black college, I had a hard time convincing black students that whites in most of the country often identified not as "white" but by ethnicity.
> 
> Quick!  Can you tell a person of Puerto Rican heritage from a Cuban?  How about a Honduran from a Mexican?   Jamaican or Haitian?  German or Polish?  Russian or Norweigan?  Irish or Italian?  Greek or Bulgarian?  Korean or Japanese?  Teton  Sioux from Choctaw?  It can get fun out there.
Click to expand...

It really shouldn't matter.  We, the US, are one Nation and should identify oneself as an American.  I realize that "American" is somewhat ambiguous since there is South, Central, and North Americans.  But it seems that being "American"  means  a US citizen to most of the world if not all.   I don't advocate losing ones heritage or not have pride in that heritage but why attempt to re-categorize oneself into a specific ethnicity;  if you call the US home, just say "I'm an American".


----------



## Kiki Cannoli

I have a group of friends from the Carolinas and Virginia, very proud Southerners who identify with the Confederate flag.  I respect their heritage.

Unfortunately, there are others who misrepresent the flag by continuing to fly it as a symbol of racial power.  This identity tends to be the loudest and most recognized at least that is how it was growing up in CT.

As far as how a black person feels about it...I'd imagine the range is broad and far reaching and I'll leave it to them to figure it out.


----------



## Nightson

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.




The reaction to such symbols depends upon personal perception. They're meaningless to some, inflammatory to others and for others still, familiar and reassuring. Thusly I doubt divergent views in regard to the Confederate Flag will ever be reconciled so long as its symbolism retains the power to activate various emotional responses.


----------



## catzmeow

I was a little sister to Kappa Alpha Order fraternity while in college many years ago.  In those days, KA flew the stars and bars as a symbol of their southern heritage.  I don't think I even considered the racial implication of that flag until I was later working for a law enforcement agency and interacting with skinheads who used the flag as a symbol of their racial views and desire to secede from the U.S. government (which they consideredd to be run by jews and mud people).

I think the views of southerners who currently fly the stars and bars are just as mixed.  I would not personally use the flag in any context at this point in my life, because of the racial implications.


----------



## Gadawg73

catzmeow said:


> I was a little sister to Kappa Alpha Order fraternity while in college many years ago.  In those days, KA flew the stars and bars as a symbol of their southern heritage.  I don't think I even considered the racial implication of that flag until I was later working for a law enforcement agency and interacting with skinheads who used the flag as a symbol of their racial views and desire to secede from the U.S. government (which they consideredd to be run by jews and mud people).
> 
> I think the views of southerners who currently fly the stars and bars are just as mixed.  I would not personally use the flag in any context at this point in my life, because of the racial implications.



Exactly, some of my friends be they black or white or somewhere in the middle are offended by it and from what I saw growing up in the deep south in the late 50s and 60s I respect that. 
And Democrats and Republicans in Georgia knew that and supported the change of our state flag.
And I do not give a shit what anyone thinks about that change as it was the right thing to do.


----------



## squeeze berry

oldfart said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today, the victims of racial violence are WHITES, not blacks.
> 
> But since the media doesn't report on that, and the left doesn't care, and the Holder Justice Dept. never heard of the Black Panthers, it's all down the memory hole...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piffle.  You just admitted you have no numbers to back up your false assertion.  You have no reports from the Bush administration Justice Department?  No statistics from liberal bastions like Texas?
Click to expand...


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JbAO5_NMw]F.B.I and U.S. Justice department Black vs White Crime statistics. - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

zed42 said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zed42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not being PC here, but why identify yourself as an African-American or Mexican-American vice plane ole American? I don't see people calling themselves Irish-American, Polish-American, German-American or whatever nationality-American.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on what kind of neighborhood you live in.  I grew up in a part of the country where white ethncities had strong identities.  When I taught at a black college, I had a hard time convincing black students that whites in most of the country often identified not as "white" but by ethnicity.
> 
> Quick!  Can you tell a person of Puerto Rican heritage from a Cuban?  How about a Honduran from a Mexican?   Jamaican or Haitian?  German or Polish?  Russian or Norweigan?  Irish or Italian?  Greek or Bulgarian?  Korean or Japanese?  Teton  Sioux from Choctaw?  It can get fun out there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It really shouldn't matter.  We, the US, are one Nation and should identify oneself as an American.  I realize that "American" is somewhat ambiguous since there is South, Central, and North Americans.  But it seems that being "American"  means  a US citizen to most of the world if not all.   I don't advocate losing ones heritage or not have pride in that heritage but why attempt to re-categorize oneself into a specific ethnicity;  if you call the US home, just say "I'm an American".
Click to expand...


In the old days people identified themselves by their heritage, they simply didn't hyphenate. Irish called themselves Irish, Italians called themselves Italians, and so on. Calling oneself "American" was simply not done by very many because it was presumed to be a given. The only people who proclaimed "I am an American" were typically those of little to no discernible ethnic or cultural background, and who also tended to be very patriotic. Count my family among the latter. While our background comes primarily from the British Isles, it is so far back as to be irrelevant, so we were always simply "Americans." But when I grew up, those that had a more immediate cultural background simply identified themselves by it, sans hyphens, and that was it.

I find the hyphenization of cultural identity a bit annoying, but aside from that, why should I really care?


----------



## jwoodie

Gadawg73 said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was a little sister to Kappa Alpha Order fraternity while in college many years ago.  In those days, KA flew the stars and bars as a symbol of their southern heritage.  I don't think I even considered the racial implication of that flag until I was later working for a law enforcement agency and interacting with skinheads who used the flag as a symbol of their racial views and desire to secede from the U.S. government (which they consideredd to be run by jews and mud people).
> 
> I think the views of southerners who currently fly the stars and bars are just as mixed.  I would not personally use the flag in any context at this point in my life, because of the racial implications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, some of my friends be they black or white or somewhere in the middle are offended by it and from what I saw growing up in the deep south in the late 50s and 60s I respect that.
> And Democrats and Republicans in Georgia knew that and supported the change of our state flag.
> And I do not give a shit what anyone thinks about that change as it was the right thing to do.
Click to expand...


...and I don't "give a shit" about whether you or your friends are "offended" by what someone else says or does.  Since when should the First Amendment be limited by your emotional reactions?


----------



## nodoginnafight

The Constitution doesn't protect anyone from being offended. Obviously you can't ban the confederate flag. But why would anyone want to fly it? You might as well fly a swastika.

Pretty close to the same thing.

Those who choose to exercise that right ... well .... not my kind of people. Sure, everyone doesn't have to be "my kind of people," just don't get all huffy when people look down their nose at you. You asked for it.


----------



## oldfart

nodoginnafight said:


> The Constitution doesn't protect anyone from being offended. Obviously you can't ban the confederate flag. But why would anyone want to fly it? You might as well fly a swastika.
> 
> Pretty close to the same thing.
> 
> Those who choose to exercise that right ... well .... not my kind of people. Sure, everyone doesn't have to be "my kind of people," just don't get all huffy when people look down their nose at you. You asked for it.



Just a reminder for all the fledgling lawyers out there.  One of the fastest growing and most profitable areas of practice in labor law is hostile work environment cases.  Free speech rights are generally parked at the door when workers are on company time, and the company has an affirmative obligation to protect workers who fall within the "Golden Nine" (yes we have a new one;  protected classes are now race, color, religion, national origin, sex, pregnancy status, age, disability, and gender identity or transgender status).  

So if you have any statements to make that might be regarded as offensive by anyone in a protected class, don't make them at work.  Unless, of course, you really don't want the job.


----------



## Gadawg73

nodoginnafight said:


> The Constitution doesn't protect anyone from being offended. Obviously you can't ban the confederate flag. But why would anyone want to fly it? You might as well fly a swastika.
> 
> Pretty close to the same thing.
> 
> Those who choose to exercise that right ... well .... not my kind of people. Sure, everyone doesn't have to be "my kind of people," just don't get all huffy when people look down their nose at you. You asked for it.



Where were the ovens that burned millions of folks during civil war?
Swastika and Confederate flag are not the same thing.


----------



## catzmeow

jwoodie said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was a little sister to Kappa Alpha Order fraternity while in college many years ago.  In those days, KA flew the stars and bars as a symbol of their southern heritage.  I don't think I even considered the racial implication of that flag until I was later working for a law enforcement agency and interacting with skinheads who used the flag as a symbol of their racial views and desire to secede from the U.S. government (which they consideredd to be run by jews and mud people).
> 
> I think the views of southerners who currently fly the stars and bars are just as mixed.  I would not personally use the flag in any context at this point in my life, because of the racial implications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, some of my friends be they black or white or somewhere in the middle are offended by it and from what I saw growing up in the deep south in the late 50s and 60s I respect that.
> And Democrats and Republicans in Georgia knew that and supported the change of our state flag.
> And I do not give a shit what anyone thinks about that change as it was the right thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and I don't "give a shit" about whether you or your friends are "offended" by what someone else says or does.  Since when should the First Amendment be limited by your emotional reactions?
Click to expand...


Who implied that your first amendment rights should be limited? Advertise your idiot status however you wish.


----------



## Polk

Gadawg73 said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was a little sister to Kappa Alpha Order fraternity while in college many years ago.  In those days, KA flew the stars and bars as a symbol of their southern heritage.  I don't think I even considered the racial implication of that flag until I was later working for a law enforcement agency and interacting with skinheads who used the flag as a symbol of their racial views and desire to secede from the U.S. government (which they consideredd to be run by jews and mud people).
> 
> I think the views of southerners who currently fly the stars and bars are just as mixed.  I would not personally use the flag in any context at this point in my life, because of the racial implications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, some of my friends be they black or white or somewhere in the middle are offended by it and from what I saw growing up in the deep south in the late 50s and 60s I respect that.
> And Democrats and Republicans in Georgia knew that and supported the change of our state flag.
> And I do not give a shit what anyone thinks about that change as it was the right thing to do.
Click to expand...


I recall Republicans in Georgia being very opposed to the change. Purdue used it as a rallying cry against Barnes, and then faced a backlash himself after he didn't restore it.


----------



## jwoodie

catzmeow said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, some of my friends be they black or white or somewhere in the middle are offended by it and from what I saw growing up in the deep south in the late 50s and 60s I respect that.
> And Democrats and Republicans in Georgia knew that and supported the change of our state flag.
> And I do not give a shit what anyone thinks about that change as it was the right thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and I don't "give a shit" about whether you or your friends are "offended" by what someone else says or does.  Since when should the First Amendment be limited by your emotional reactions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who implied that your first amendment rights should be limited? Advertise your idiot status however you wish.
Click to expand...


1.  What is the relevance of your being "offended?"

2.  Following up your coarse language with name calling is really classy.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was a little sister to Kappa Alpha Order fraternity while in college many years ago.  In those days, KA flew the stars and bars as a symbol of their southern heritage.  I don't think I even considered the racial implication of that flag until I was later working for a law enforcement agency and interacting with skinheads who used the flag as a symbol of their racial views and desire to secede from the U.S. government (which they consideredd to be run by jews and mud people).
> 
> I think the views of southerners who currently fly the stars and bars are just as mixed.  I would not personally use the flag in any context at this point in my life, because of the racial implications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, some of my friends be they black or white or somewhere in the middle are offended by it and from what I saw growing up in the deep south in the late 50s and 60s I respect that.
> And Democrats and Republicans in Georgia knew that and supported the change of our state flag.
> And I do not give a shit what anyone thinks about that change as it was the right thing to do.
Click to expand...


So? You nor they have the right to NOT be offended.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

nodoginnafight said:


> The Constitution doesn't protect anyone from being offended. Obviously you can't ban the confederate flag. But why would anyone want to fly it? You might as well fly a swastika.
> 
> Pretty close to the same thing.
> 
> Those who choose to exercise that right ... well .... not my kind of people. Sure, everyone doesn't have to be "my kind of people," just don't get all huffy when people look down their nose at you. You asked for it.



Was the swastika part of American heritage?

You'd be surprised by the number of blacks that fly the rebel flag here in Texas. Then again, maybe not.


----------



## Samson

oldfart said:


> ....To southern whites  it is the "Flag of Resistance" defying not only blacks but also northerners. .....



Nonsense: what is there about blacks to "defy?"

I think what you meant to say is that to southern (and northern) whites, the flag represents defying the Federal Government, and_ ALL institutional reforms_, including emancipation.

This is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and quite counterproductive: instead of focusing their efforts to prevent REALLY STUPID national reforms (individual income tax, for example), the effort has been to critsise what is perhaps the only constructive domestic reform the Federal Government has ever made.


----------



## longknife

Gadawg73 said:


> nodoginnafight said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Constitution doesn't protect anyone from being offended. Obviously you can't ban the confederate flag. But why would anyone want to fly it? You might as well fly a swastika.
> 
> Pretty close to the same thing.
> 
> Those who choose to exercise that right ... well .... not my kind of people. Sure, everyone doesn't have to be "my kind of people," just don't get all huffy when people look down their nose at you. You asked for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where were the ovens that burned millions of folks during civil war?
> Swastika and Confederate flag are not the same thing.
Click to expand...


Sadly, the Confederacy had its own concentration camp - Andersonville. An absolutely horrid place where many Union soldiers died of starvation and illness. Unlike the Nuremberg Trial, nothing was done that I can remember to the guards, although I believe senior officers were tried.

While I defend a person's right to show the Battle Flag of the Confederacy, it would be nice to see a time come in this nation when all the divisiveness ended and we could all be just Americans.


----------



## catzmeow

jwoodie said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and I don't "give a shit" about whether you or your friends are "offended" by what someone else says or does.  Since when should the First Amendment be limited by your emotional reactions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who implied that your first amendment rights should be limited? Advertise your idiot status however you wish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1.  What is the relevance of your being "offended?"
> 
> 2.  Following up your coarse language with name calling is really classy.
Click to expand...


I think you've confused me with another poster.  I consider people who fly the stars and bars to be idiots, but I would never infringe on their right to do so.  In fact, I'm in favor of people giving me a visible cue of their idiot status so I can avoid them.


----------



## nodoginnafight

Gadawg73 said:


> nodoginnafight said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Constitution doesn't protect anyone from being offended. Obviously you can't ban the confederate flag. But why would anyone want to fly it? You might as well fly a swastika.
> 
> Pretty close to the same thing.
> 
> Those who choose to exercise that right ... well .... not my kind of people. Sure, everyone doesn't have to be "my kind of people," just don't get all huffy when people look down their nose at you. You asked for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where were the ovens that burned millions of folks during civil war?
> Swastika and Confederate flag are not the same thing.
Click to expand...


The "ovens" were ropes hung from trees. The only difference was the industrial revolution. Hitler just got mechanized.

Of course the ropes and burning crosses came AFTER the civil war. Before the Civil War whites "protected" their slaves just like they protected all their cattle and economic assets.
Respectfully, are you suggesting owning a human being is on "higher moral ground" than gassing one?


----------



## Lonestar_logic

nodoginnafight said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nodoginnafight said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Constitution doesn't protect anyone from being offended. Obviously you can't ban the confederate flag. But why would anyone want to fly it? You might as well fly a swastika.
> 
> Pretty close to the same thing.
> 
> Those who choose to exercise that right ... well .... not my kind of people. Sure, everyone doesn't have to be "my kind of people," just don't get all huffy when people look down their nose at you. You asked for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where were the ovens that burned millions of folks during civil war?
> Swastika and Confederate flag are not the same thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "ovens" were ropes hung from trees. The only difference was the industrial revolution. Hitler just got mechanized.
> 
> Of course the ropes and burning crosses came AFTER the civil war. Before the Civil War whites "protected" their slaves just like they protected all their cattle and economic assets.
> Respectfully, are you suggesting owning a human being is on "higher moral ground" than gassing one?
Click to expand...


Owning slaves was perfectly legal at the time. Was gassing?


----------



## catzmeow

Lonestar_logic said:


> nodoginnafight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where were the ovens that burned millions of folks during civil war?
> Swastika and Confederate flag are not the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "ovens" were ropes hung from trees. The only difference was the industrial revolution. Hitler just got mechanized.
> 
> Of course the ropes and burning crosses came AFTER the civil war. Before the Civil War whites "protected" their slaves just like they protected all their cattle and economic assets.
> Respectfully, are you suggesting owning a human being is on "higher moral ground" than gassing one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Owning slaves was perfectly legal at the time. Was gassing?
Click to expand...


In Germany, it was state policy.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

catzmeow said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who implied that your first amendment rights should be limited? Advertise your idiot status however you wish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  What is the relevance of your being "offended?"
> 
> 2.  Following up your coarse language with name calling is really classy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you've confused me with another poster.  I consider people who fly the stars and bars to be idiots, but I would never infringe on their right to do so.  In fact, I'm in favor of people giving me a visible cue of their idiot status so I can avoid them.
Click to expand...


I think the same thing about those people that use avatars such as yours. Imagine that.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

catzmeow said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nodoginnafight said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "ovens" were ropes hung from trees. The only difference was the industrial revolution. Hitler just got mechanized.
> 
> Of course the ropes and burning crosses came AFTER the civil war. Before the Civil War whites "protected" their slaves just like they protected all their cattle and economic assets.
> Respectfully, are you suggesting owning a human being is on "higher moral ground" than gassing one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Owning slaves was perfectly legal at the time. Was gassing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In Germany, it was state policy.
Click to expand...


Let's see that policy.


----------



## Liability

Confederate Flag: Symbol of ? 

Gonna go waaaay out on a limb here and say, "the Confederacy."


----------



## catzmeow

Lonestar_logic said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Owning slaves was perfectly legal at the time. Was gassing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Germany, it was state policy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's see that policy.
Click to expand...


The  camps were created by political leaders in Germany and sustained by the Nazi party.  

That made them legal, at least, at that time, in Germany.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

catzmeow said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Germany, it was state policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see that policy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The  camps were created by political leaders in Germany and sustained by the Nazi party.
> 
> That made them legal, at least, at that time, in Germany.
Click to expand...


Again, let's see that policy. 

Oh and if it was perfectly legal why were so many people that were involved convicted of war crimes?


----------



## Gadawg73

I seriously doubt that Lonestar has a racist bone in his body. Have seen his posts for a while and nothing indicates anything of the sort.
He posts that flag for the shock value only. I have no problem with that. This is AN INTERNET BOARD PEOPLE!
Free country. Amazing how folks ASSUME things just because of A FLAG.
But when government flies it in opposition to integration as Georgia did for many years it IS something to fight over. 
Government has NO business doing that.


----------



## JWBooth

Gadawg73 said:


> I seriously doubt that Lonestar has a racist bone in his body. Have seen his posts for a while and nothing indicates anything of the sort.
> He posts that flag for the shock value only. I have no problem with that. This is AN INTERNET BOARD PEOPLE!
> Free country. Amazing how folks ASSUME things just because of A FLAG.
> But when government flies it in opposition to integration as Georgia did for many years it IS something to fight over.
> Government has NO business doing that.








We are a band of brothers
Native to the soil...


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see that policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The  camps were created by political leaders in Germany and sustained by the Nazi party.
> 
> That made them legal, at least, at that time, in Germany.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, let's see that policy.
> 
> Oh and if it was perfectly legal why were so many people that were involved convicted of war crimes?
Click to expand...


In Germany it was legal. State policy, there were various laws to send them and kill them in the camps.
Deportation orders, denaturalization orders.
Laws to prevent people with disabilities from having kids, then sent to camps.
Nuremberg Laws


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> I seriously doubt that Lonestar has a racist bone in his body. Have seen his posts for a while and nothing indicates anything of the sort.
> He posts that flag for the shock value only. I have no problem with that. This is AN INTERNET BOARD PEOPLE!
> Free country. Amazing how folks ASSUME things just because of A FLAG.
> But when government flies it in opposition to integration as Georgia did for many years it IS something to fight over.
> Government has NO business doing that.



Actually I use this flag because it is a part of my heritage. My ancestors fought for the Confederacy, I've been a member of SCV (Sons of Confederate Veterans ) for over 25 years.


----------



## catzmeow

Lonestar_logic said:


> Again, let's see that policy.



What a stupid question.  Do you read German?



> Oh and if it was perfectly legal why were so many people that were involved convicted of war crimes?



They were convicted of crimes against humanity, not against the German people.  Different standards.

Is torture of enemy combatants legal?


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The  camps were created by political leaders in Germany and sustained by the Nazi party.
> 
> That made them legal, at least, at that time, in Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, let's see that policy.
> 
> Oh and if it was perfectly legal why were so many people that were involved convicted of war crimes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In Germany it was legal. State policy, there were various laws to send them and kill them in the camps.
> Deportation orders, denaturalization orders.
> Laws to prevent people with disabilities from having kids, then sent to camps.
> Nuremberg Laws
Click to expand...


If that's true then produce the policy that made mass killing innocent people legal. And if it was legal why the convictions?

Just because you people say so. doesn't make it it so.

Put up or shut up.


----------



## bodecea

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



The Stars and Bars or the Southern Cross?


----------



## bodecea

oldfart said:


> The* "Stars and Bars" *has been used prominently at KKK rallies and segregationist political events and demonstrations to this day.  To southern whites  it is the "Flag of Resistance" defying not only blacks but also northerners.  Check the video archives of any southern TV station and this becomes obvious.  This is still the meaning most connected to it by southern whites today.



No...you are thinking of the Southern Cross.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

catzmeow said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, let's see that policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a stupid question.  Do you read German?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and if it was perfectly legal why were so many people that were involved convicted of war crimes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were convicted of crimes against humanity, not against the German people.  Different standards.
> 
> Is torture of enemy combatants legal?
Click to expand...


Yes I'm fluent in German, Spanish and French.

Welches sagen Sie Sie?


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt that Lonestar has a racist bone in his body. Have seen his posts for a while and nothing indicates anything of the sort.
> He posts that flag for the shock value only. I have no problem with that. This is AN INTERNET BOARD PEOPLE!
> Free country. Amazing how folks ASSUME things just because of A FLAG.
> But when government flies it in opposition to integration as Georgia did for many years it IS something to fight over.
> Government has NO business doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I use this flag because it is a part of my heritage. My ancestors fought for the Confederacy, I've been a member of SCV (Sons of Confederate Veterans ) for over 25 years.
Click to expand...


What is wrong with the American flag Lonestar?
That is more your heritage than the Confederate battle flag.
Shock value is more important to you. 
No problem here with that as this is an internet board.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, let's see that policy.
> 
> Oh and if it was perfectly legal why were so many people that were involved convicted of war crimes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Germany it was legal. State policy, there were various laws to send them and kill them in the camps.
> Deportation orders, denaturalization orders.
> Laws to prevent people with disabilities from having kids, then sent to camps.
> Nuremberg Laws
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's true then produce the policy that made mass killing innocent people legal. And if it was legal why the convictions?
> 
> Just because you people say so. doesn't make it it so.
> 
> Put up or shut up.
Click to expand...


The Final Solution was that policy.
The Nuremberg trials had nothing to do with German law Lonestar.
They were an international tribunal.
NO offense Lonestar but if you did not know that you have no business discussing this.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt that Lonestar has a racist bone in his body. Have seen his posts for a while and nothing indicates anything of the sort.
> He posts that flag for the shock value only. I have no problem with that. This is AN INTERNET BOARD PEOPLE!
> Free country. Amazing how folks ASSUME things just because of A FLAG.
> But when government flies it in opposition to integration as Georgia did for many years it IS something to fight over.
> Government has NO business doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I use this flag because it is a part of my heritage. My ancestors fought for the Confederacy, I've been a member of SCV (Sons of Confederate Veterans ) for over 25 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is wrong with the American flag Lonestar?
> That is more your heritage than the Confederate battle flag.
> Shock value is more important to you.
> No problem here with that as this is an internet board.
Click to expand...


I don't know. Tell me what is wrong with the American flag?

Who are you to define my heritage?

If your shocked, I see no value.

I haven't had a problem anywhere in the continental US flying the Confederate flag.

It seems those suffering "white guilt" has the issue with it. Not my fault you weren't born black.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Germany it was legal. State policy, there were various laws to send them and kill them in the camps.
> Deportation orders, denaturalization orders.
> Laws to prevent people with disabilities from having kids, then sent to camps.
> Nuremberg Laws
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's true then produce the policy that made mass killing innocent people legal. And if it was legal why the convictions?
> 
> Just because you people say so. doesn't make it it so.
> 
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Final Solution was that policy.
> The Nuremberg trials had nothing to do with German law Lonestar.
> They were an international tribunal.
> NO offense Lonestar but if you did not know that you have no business discussing this.
Click to expand...


Apparently you need to do more research.

The Nuremberg trials was for crimes against humanity. Like killing 6 million innocent people.




> The Final Solution (German: Die Endlösung) was Nazi Germany's plan and execution of the systematic genocide of European Jews during World War II, resulting in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust. According to historians at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, The Nazis frequently used euphemistic language to disguise the *true nature of their crimes*. They used the term Final Solution to refer to their plan to annihilate the Jewish people.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I use this flag because it is a part of my heritage. My ancestors fought for the Confederacy, I've been a member of SCV (Sons of Confederate Veterans ) for over 25 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong with the American flag Lonestar?
> That is more your heritage than the Confederate battle flag.
> Shock value is more important to you.
> No problem here with that as this is an internet board.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know. Tell me what is wrong with the American flag?
> 
> Who are you to define my heritage?
> 
> If your shocked, I see no value.
> 
> I haven't had a problem anywhere in the continental US flying the Confederate flag.
> 
> It seems those suffering "white guilt" has the issue with it. Not my fault you weren't born black.
Click to expand...


LOL, Lonestar, listen up good man.
I have no problem with it. Not shocked at all.
White guilt? Another one of your fantasies. I have no guilt whatsoever but keep up the comedy show.
If your Confederate heritage is more important to you than being an American citizen then have it old man.
Free country.
You sure are thin skinned for someone that owns gun stores!


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that's true then produce the policy that made mass killing innocent people legal. And if it was legal why the convictions?
> 
> Just because you people say so. doesn't make it it so.
> 
> Put up or shut up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Final Solution was that policy.
> The Nuremberg trials had nothing to do with German law Lonestar.
> They were an international tribunal.
> NO offense Lonestar but if you did not know that you have no business discussing this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apparently you need to do more research.
> 
> The Nuremberg trials was for crimes against humanity. Like killing 6 million innocent people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Final Solution (German: Die Endlösung) was Nazi Germany's plan and execution of the systematic genocide of European Jews during World War II, resulting in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust. According to historians at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, The Nazis frequently used euphemistic language to disguise the *true nature of their crimes*. They used the term Final Solution to refer to their plan to annihilate the Jewish people.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


No, your claim is that there were no policies and that there were laws making it illegal in Germany what they did.
You next claimed the trials were GERMAN COURT trials based on GERMAN LAW there as your proof.
Shot all the hell all of your bogus claims.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong with the American flag Lonestar?
> That is more your heritage than the Confederate battle flag.
> Shock value is more important to you.
> No problem here with that as this is an internet board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. Tell me what is wrong with the American flag?
> 
> Who are you to define my heritage?
> 
> If your shocked, I see no value.
> 
> I haven't had a problem anywhere in the continental US flying the Confederate flag.
> 
> It seems those suffering "white guilt" has the issue with it. Not my fault you weren't born black.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL, Lonestar, listen up good man.
> I have no problem with it. Not shocked at all.
> White guilt? Another one of your fantasies. I have no guilt whatsoever but keep up the comedy show.
> If your Confederate heritage is more important to you than being an American citizen then have it old man.
> Free country.
> You sure are thin skinned for someone that owns gun stores!
Click to expand...


I don't have fantasies. I observe and draw conclusions based on those observations.

Why does one part of ones heritage have to be more important than the other? Can't they both be equally important and equally honored?

What makes you think I'm thin skinned?

I haven't lost my cool or my temper. As a matter of fact I rather enjoy educating you.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Final Solution was that policy.
> The Nuremberg trials had nothing to do with German law Lonestar.
> They were an international tribunal.
> NO offense Lonestar but if you did not know that you have no business discussing this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you need to do more research.
> 
> The Nuremberg trials was for crimes against humanity. Like killing 6 million innocent people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Final Solution (German: Die Endlösung) was Nazi Germany's plan and execution of the systematic genocide of European Jews during World War II, resulting in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust. According to historians at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, The Nazis frequently used euphemistic language to disguise the *true nature of their crimes*. They used the term Final Solution to refer to their plan to annihilate the Jewish people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, your claim is that there were no policies and that there were laws making it illegal in Germany what they did.
> You next claimed the trials were GERMAN COURT trials based on GERMAN LAW there as your proof.
> Shot all the hell all of your bogus claims.
Click to expand...


No my claim is that there are no policies making genocide legal. 

I never claimed the trials were GERMAN COURT based on GERMAN LAW.

I'm pretty sure I understand MY claim better than you.


----------



## Gadawg73

gadawg73 said:


> lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the final solution was that policy.
> The nuremberg trials had nothing to do with german law lonestar.
> They were an international tribunal.
> No offense lonestar but if you did not know that you have no business discussing this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apparently you need to do more research.
> 
> The nuremberg trials was for crimes against humanity. Like killing 6 million innocent people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the final solution (german: Die endlösung) was nazi germany's plan and execution of the systematic genocide of european jews during world war ii, resulting in the most deadly phase of the holocaust. According to historians at the united states holocaust memorial museum, &#8220;the nazis frequently used euphemistic language to disguise the *true nature of their crimes*. They used the term &#8220;final solution&#8221; to refer to their plan to annihilate the jewish people.&#8221;
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, your claim is that there were no policies and that there were laws making it illegal in germany what they did.
> You next claimed the trials were german court trials based on german law there as your proof.
> Shot all the hell all of your bogus claims.
Click to expand...





This needs to be your avatar, the real Lonestar.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you need to do more research.
> 
> The Nuremberg trials was for crimes against humanity. Like killing 6 million innocent people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, your claim is that there were no policies and that there were laws making it illegal in Germany what they did.
> You next claimed the trials were GERMAN COURT trials based on GERMAN LAW there as your proof.
> Shot all the hell all of your bogus claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No my claim is that there are no policies making genocide legal.
> 
> I never claimed the trials were GERMAN COURT based on GERMAN LAW.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I understand MY claim better than you.
Click to expand...


No, nice dodge there but you claimed that there WERE NO GERMAN POLICIES making it legal.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. Tell me what is wrong with the American flag?
> 
> Who are you to define my heritage?
> 
> If your shocked, I see no value.
> 
> I haven't had a problem anywhere in the continental US flying the Confederate flag.
> 
> It seems those suffering "white guilt" has the issue with it. Not my fault you weren't born black.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, Lonestar, listen up good man.
> I have no problem with it. Not shocked at all.
> White guilt? Another one of your fantasies. I have no guilt whatsoever but keep up the comedy show.
> If your Confederate heritage is more important to you than being an American citizen then have it old man.
> Free country.
> You sure are thin skinned for someone that owns gun stores!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have fantasies. I observe and draw conclusions based on those observations.
> 
> Why does one part of ones heritage have to be more important than the other? Can't they both be equally important and equally honored?
> 
> What makes you think I'm thin skinned?
> 
> I haven't lost my cool or my temper. As a matter of fact I rather enjoy educating you.
Click to expand...


Oh, I am far educated beyond your or my intelligence.
As indicated by your denials of what you claimed in previous posts.
You make a good point on the dual heritages Lonestar.
You are a Confederate American.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, your claim is that there were no policies and that there were laws making it illegal in Germany what they did.
> You next claimed the trials were GERMAN COURT trials based on GERMAN LAW there as your proof.
> Shot all the hell all of your bogus claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No my claim is that there are *no policies making genocide legal.*
> 
> I never claimed the trials were GERMAN COURT based on GERMAN LAW.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I understand MY claim better than you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, nice dodge there but you claimed that there WERE NO *GERMAN POLICIES making it legal*.
Click to expand...


That's just what I said.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, Lonestar, listen up good man.
> I have no problem with it. Not shocked at all.
> White guilt? Another one of your fantasies. I have no guilt whatsoever but keep up the comedy show.
> If your Confederate heritage is more important to you than being an American citizen then have it old man.
> Free country.
> You sure are thin skinned for someone that owns gun stores!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have fantasies. I observe and draw conclusions based on those observations.
> 
> Why does one part of ones heritage have to be more important than the other? Can't they both be equally important and equally honored?
> 
> What makes you think I'm thin skinned?
> 
> I haven't lost my cool or my temper. As a matter of fact I rather enjoy educating you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, I am far educated beyond your or my intelligence.
> As indicated by your denials of what you claimed in previous posts.
> You make a good point on the dual heritages Lonestar.
> You are a Confederate American.
Click to expand...


I can see how you can be more educated than your intelligence. 

I don't deny my claims. I do deny your twisted interpretations of my claims.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have fantasies. I observe and draw conclusions based on those observations.
> 
> Why does one part of ones heritage have to be more important than the other? Can't they both be equally important and equally honored?
> 
> What makes you think I'm thin skinned?
> 
> I haven't lost my cool or my temper. As a matter of fact I rather enjoy educating you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I am far educated beyond your or my intelligence.
> As indicated by your denials of what you claimed in previous posts.
> You make a good point on the dual heritages Lonestar.
> You are a Confederate American.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can see how you can be more educated than your intelligence.
> 
> I don't deny my claims. I do deny your twisted interpretations of my claims.
Click to expand...


Your claims are all over the map. First you claim that there were no policies in Germany that made killing of prisoners legal.
Lonestar, they lined up folks and shot them in daylight on the streets based on those policies. 
Then you claimed that they had trials and were convicted based on those laws that made what they did illegal.
None of that ever happened.
WWII History 101 is taught at your local community college.


----------



## oldfart

Lonestar_logic said:


> Apparently you need to do more research.
> 
> The Nuremberg trials was for crimes against humanity. Like killing 6 million innocent people.



You are correct about the trials.  But the racial purity laws in National Socialist Germany are refered to as the "Nuremburg laws".  It's a common mistake.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I am far educated beyond your or my intelligence.
> As indicated by your denials of what you claimed in previous posts.
> You make a good point on the dual heritages Lonestar.
> You are a Confederate American.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see how you can be more educated than your intelligence.
> 
> I don't deny my claims. I do deny your twisted interpretations of my claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your claims are all over the map. First you claim that there were no policies in Germany that made killing of prisoners legal.
> Lonestar, they lined up folks and shot them in daylight on the streets based on those policies.
> Then you claimed that they had trials and were convicted based on those laws that made what they did illegal.
> None of that ever happened.
> WWII History 101 is taught at your local community college.
Click to expand...


I never said anything about the killing of prisoners.

Please read what I wrote and do not add your BS to it.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can see how you can be more educated than your intelligence.
> 
> I don't deny my claims. I do deny your twisted interpretations of my claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your claims are all over the map. First you claim that there were no policies in Germany that made killing of prisoners legal.
> Lonestar, they lined up folks and shot them in daylight on the streets based on those policies.
> Then you claimed that they had trials and were convicted based on those laws that made what they did illegal.
> None of that ever happened.
> WWII History 101 is taught at your local community college.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never said anything about the killing of prisoners.
> 
> Please read what I wrote and do not add your BS to it.
Click to expand...


Everyone in the concentration camps were labeled as prisoners.
Am not talking about POWs.


----------



## Gadawg73

My uncle was with some of the first Army troops to liberate concentration camps. My cousins still have all of the photos he took there. Shoes stacked 3 stories high. Teeth and hair in large rooms. Bodies stacked like chord wood.
When they went in they actually had to wait for weeks to let anyone go. Why?
Because they were all "prisoners" and they had to attempt to sort out who was who and why.
That was the fraud the Germans put on with their "laws" making what they did appear to be "legal".
Amazing it still has folks fooled to this day.


----------



## Aristotle

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, here we go poor whites are the victims of racism. Well let me tell you this. If you're white, and your a victim of racism welcome to my world, and my parents world, and my grandparents world, and my great great parents world and my great great great parents world, and my great great great great great........
> 
> The confederacy was anything but a symbol of rejecting tyranny and if it was, it was an inherent contradictory symbol. Why should you defend a flag used against supposed tyranny when white southerners were tyrants themselves against blacks?
> 
> 
> View attachment 22125
> 
> View attachment 22126
> 
> View attachment 22127
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are just posting inflammatory drivel meant to imply that the Confederate flag is akin to the Nazi flag in what it represents. I am not a southerner, but I have known many, from different parts of the south, and I have known them to be much more culturally complex than you may acknowledge, and for many, the flag is a cultural symbol rather than a political or dogmatic one, and thus symbolic of something that is difficult for those outside of the south to understand. My ancestors are from Kentucky and the lower mid-west, so I suppose I have some mild cultural tie to it, and perhaps that is why I am a little more empathetic.
> 
> If you want to post pictures of Klansmen holding a Confederate flag while giving the Bellamy salute nobody can stop you, but your limited perspective and your agenda are pretty transparent, to me at least. Clearly you view the Confederate flag as no different than the Nazi flag. Nobody can stop you from feeling that way, but it is not an appropriate comparison. The Nazi flag had zero cultural significance, and was every bit a political symbol. In fact, it did much to erase or marginalize German culture, which was very unfortunate for all of us because of many of the wonderful things about German culture. The Confederate flag is a much more complex symbol than the Nazi flag, and to suggest such a comparison is silly.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but as my grandfather sat and told me about the burning cross on his lawn while cowards wearing white pillow cover over their faces driving away with a confederate flag on their truck I thought I had a clue. Simply put the south was a hotbed of racism. I am not concerned how you guys sugarcoat the history of the confederate flag. I am not concerned how you sugarcoat the history of the klan. The fact remains is that the flag was a symbol of racism. If real southerners have an issue with the opinions of their flag perhaps they need to speak out against the racist that use their flag as a symbol of racism or perhaps they need to separate themselves from the racist that use their flag.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

JWBooth said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The one on the roof of "General Lee" (Confederate battle flag?).
> 
> 
> 
> The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Got it.
Click to expand...


Most people don't know what the "Confederate flag" really was.

As to the op, in my state, honest of effing gawd, they still call it The War Of Northern Aggression. Racism is rampant here. We even have an enclave on white supremacists just outside town. 

The flag is a symbol the worst kind of racism.


----------



## Gadawg73

Aristotle said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, here we go poor whites are the victims of racism. Well let me tell you this. If you're white, and your a victim of racism welcome to my world, and my parents world, and my grandparents world, and my great great parents world and my great great great parents world, and my great great great great great........
> 
> The confederacy was anything but a symbol of rejecting tyranny and if it was, it was an inherent contradictory symbol. Why should you defend a flag used against supposed tyranny when white southerners were tyrants themselves against blacks?
> 
> 
> View attachment 22125
> 
> View attachment 22126
> 
> View attachment 22127
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are just posting inflammatory drivel meant to imply that the Confederate flag is akin to the Nazi flag in what it represents. I am not a southerner, but I have known many, from different parts of the south, and I have known them to be much more culturally complex than you may acknowledge, and for many, the flag is a cultural symbol rather than a political or dogmatic one, and thus symbolic of something that is difficult for those outside of the south to understand. My ancestors are from Kentucky and the lower mid-west, so I suppose I have some mild cultural tie to it, and perhaps that is why I am a little more empathetic.
> 
> If you want to post pictures of Klansmen holding a Confederate flag while giving the Bellamy salute nobody can stop you, but your limited perspective and your agenda are pretty transparent, to me at least. Clearly you view the Confederate flag as no different than the Nazi flag. Nobody can stop you from feeling that way, but it is not an appropriate comparison. The Nazi flag had zero cultural significance, and was every bit a political symbol. In fact, it did much to erase or marginalize German culture, which was very unfortunate for all of us because of many of the wonderful things about German culture. The Confederate flag is a much more complex symbol than the Nazi flag, and to suggest such a comparison is silly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but as my grandfather sat and told me about the burning cross on his lawn while cowards wearing white pillow cover over their faces driving away with a confederate flag on their truck I thought I had a clue. Simply put the south was a hotbed of racism. I am not concerned how you guys sugarcoat the history of the confederate flag. I am not concerned how you sugarcoat the history of the klan. The fact remains is that the flag was a symbol of racism. If real southerners have an issue with the opinions of their flag perhaps they need to speak out against the racist that use their flag as a symbol of racism or perhaps they need to separate themselves from the racist that use their flag.
Click to expand...


Yes, the flag has been a SYMBOL of racism for many hate groups.
But it has also been a symbol to some, maybe just a few, of their heritage.
I do agree as I saw first hand the hate in the late 50s and 60s here from pussies standing behind that flag to persecute black folks. Played in a game in the county north of here my sophomore year in high school where they had fans in the stands flying it and ****** ****** ****** to our black players as they got off the bus. Saw a few of them shaking and puking before the game.
I saw it, lived it and it is always in my mind. 
Bigots are still around but a bigot is different than a racist.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I am far educated beyond your or my intelligence.
> As indicated by your denials of what you claimed in previous posts.
> You make a good point on the dual heritages Lonestar.
> You are a Confederate American.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see how you can be more educated than your intelligence.
> 
> I don't deny my claims. I do deny your twisted interpretations of my claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your claims are all over the map. First you claim that there were no policies in Germany that made killing of prisoners legal.
> Lonestar, they lined up folks and shot them in daylight on the streets based on those policies.
> Then you claimed that they had trials and were convicted based on those laws that made what they did illegal.
> None of that ever happened.
> WWII History 101 is taught at your local community college.
Click to expand...


You are an idiot. I have been constistent throughout.

I never once mentioned PRISONERS.

Those involved in the mass killing of innocent Jews were put on trial and convicted for crimes against humanity. The mass killing of innocent Jews was never LEGAL. 

It did happen and history supports those facts.

Deal with it.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can see how you can be more educated than your intelligence.
> 
> I don't deny my claims. I do deny your twisted interpretations of my claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your claims are all over the map. First you claim that there were no policies in Germany that made killing of prisoners legal.
> Lonestar, they lined up folks and shot them in daylight on the streets based on those policies.
> Then you claimed that they had trials and were convicted based on those laws that made what they did illegal.
> None of that ever happened.
> WWII History 101 is taught at your local community college.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are an idiot. I have been constistent throughout.
> 
> I never once mentioned PRISONERS.
> 
> Those involved in the mass killing of innocent Jews were put on trial and convicted for crimes against humanity. The mass killing of innocent Jews was never LEGAL.
> 
> It did happen and history supports those facts.
> 
> Deal with it.
Click to expand...


It was legal in Germany.


----------



## editec

> *Confederate Flag: Symbol of ? *


 
*Treason then and now racism.*

*We all know this... every one of us whther we love that rag or hate it knows this perfectly well.*

*Anybody who tells you otherwise is a bold faced liar.*


----------



## Gadawg73

"Crimes against humanity" was the last of 4 indictments of the Nuremberg Tribunals. They arose NOT from any German laws or policies forbidding any of those crimes but as defined totally by The London Charter. They are prosecuted NOT as a sporadic event but as a result of GOVERNMENT POLICIES or a wide practice of atrocities TOLERATED OR CONDONED BY GOVERNMENT.
And that is specifically what happened in Germany under the Nazis and that was what specifically they were prosecuted under. 
German policy WAS to kill Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and many others AND THEY DID IT under that policy.
And if it WAS NOT the government policy in NO WAY could they be prosecuted for it under "crimes against humanity" indictment in the Nuremberg Tribunals set up under The London Charter.


----------



## Gadawg73

editec said:


> *Confederate Flag: Symbol of ? *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Treason then and now racism.*
> 
> *We all know this... every one of us whther we love that rag or hate it knows this perfectly well.*
> 
> *Anybody who tells you otherwise is a bold faced liar.*
Click to expand...


A flag treason?
Under what part of the Constitution?
Dude, ACTIONS are treason, not a damn flag.
Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another.
Most of the Confederate rebels could care less about that with a division of Union forces approaching.
Bigotry is what you probably mean. Most folks around here that fly that flag are bigots.
Nothing to do about racism as a racist, and there are still many and they do fly that flag, is a belief, not an action.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> "Crimes against humanity" was the last of 4 indictments of the Nuremberg Tribunals.* They arose NOT from any German laws or policies forbidding any of those crimes *but as defined totally by The London Charter. They are prosecuted NOT as a sporadic event but as a result of GOVERNMENT POLICIES or a wide practice of atrocities TOLERATED OR CONDONED BY GOVERNMENT.
> And that is specifically what happened in Germany under the Nazis and that was what specifically they were prosecuted under.
> German policy WAS to kill Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and many others AND THEY DID IT under that policy.
> And if it WAS NOT the government policy in NO WAY could they be prosecuted for it under "crimes against humanity" indictment in the Nuremberg Tribunals set up under The London Charter.



Do you even read what you write?


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes against humanity" was the last of 4 indictments of the Nuremberg Tribunals.* They arose NOT from any German laws or policies forbidding any of those crimes *but as defined totally by The London Charter. They are prosecuted NOT as a sporadic event but as a result of GOVERNMENT POLICIES or a wide practice of atrocities TOLERATED OR CONDONED BY GOVERNMENT.
> And that is specifically what happened in Germany under the Nazis and that was what specifically they were prosecuted under.
> German policy WAS to kill Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and many others AND THEY DID IT under that policy.
> And if it WAS NOT the government policy in NO WAY could they be prosecuted for it under "crimes against humanity" indictment in the Nuremberg Tribunals set up under The London Charter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you even read what you write?
Click to expand...


The tribunals defined them as "crimes", not any German law or policy.
"You are an idiot"
Thought you were Mr. cool and calm there Moe.
Does not take much to see right through you.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes against humanity" was the last of 4 indictments of the Nuremberg Tribunals.* They arose NOT from any German laws or policies forbidding any of those crimes *but as defined totally by The London Charter. They are prosecuted NOT as a sporadic event but as a result of GOVERNMENT POLICIES or a wide practice of atrocities TOLERATED OR CONDONED BY GOVERNMENT.
> And that is specifically what happened in Germany under the Nazis and that was what specifically they were prosecuted under.
> German policy WAS to kill Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and many others AND THEY DID IT under that policy.
> And if it WAS NOT the government policy in NO WAY could they be prosecuted for it under "crimes against humanity" indictment in the Nuremberg Tribunals set up under The London Charter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you even read what you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The tribunals defined them as "crimes", not any German law or policy.
> "You are an idiot"
> Thought you were Mr. cool and calm there Moe.
> Does not take much to see right through you.
Click to expand...


You yourself defined them as crimes. But go ahead and crawfish out of it.

What makes you think I'm not calm? Oh by describing you as an idiot?  I just call 'em like I see 'em.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Gadawg73 said:


> My uncle was with some of the first Army troops to liberate concentration camps. My cousins still have all of the photos he took there. Shoes stacked 3 stories high. Teeth and hair in large rooms. Bodies stacked like chord wood.
> When they went in they actually had to wait for weeks to let anyone go. Why?
> Because they were all "prisoners" and they had to attempt to sort out who was who and why.
> That was the fraud the Germans put on with their "laws" making what they did appear to be "legal".
> Amazing it still has folks fooled to this day.



My father was one of those who forced German citizens out of their homes and into trucks to drive them out of town to view the concentration camps and the people in them. He never talked very much about it but my mother told us that he was beyond scarred by the experience of seeing those people, those walking skeletons. She said he once told her that he would always be able to smell it in his memory.

And, yes, there are many parallels and similarities in every kind of "ism".  

Hitler succeeded in his death camps because he was able to make the people believe that it was the fault of the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, blacks, that it was their fault that the economy was failing. 

In the US now, were told that Latinos/Mexicans are taking away our jobs and using our resources. There is no evidence that they are actually doing harm but we need someone to blame.

Same reason why ObamaCare is not  accepted. Not from a black man that the haters want to believe came from Africa. 

Fear and hate are more powerful than love. Love of each other or love of country. Neither can compete with the fear and hate we feel for those who are different.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

luddly.neddite said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My uncle was with some of the first Army troops to liberate concentration camps. My cousins still have all of the photos he took there. Shoes stacked 3 stories high. Teeth and hair in large rooms. Bodies stacked like chord wood.
> When they went in they actually had to wait for weeks to let anyone go. Why?
> Because they were all "prisoners" and they had to attempt to sort out who was who and why.
> That was the fraud the Germans put on with their "laws" making what they did appear to be "legal".
> Amazing it still has folks fooled to this day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My father was one of those who forced German citizens out of their homes and into trucks to drive them out of town to view the concentration camps and the people in them. He never talked very much about it but my mother told us that he was beyond scarred by the experience of seeing those people, those walking skeletons. She said he once told her that he would always be able to smell it in his memory.
> 
> And, yes, there are many parallels and similarities in every kind of "ism".
> 
> Hitler succeeded in his death camps because he was able to make the people believe that it was the fault of the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, blacks, that it was their fault that the economy was failing.
> 
> In the US now, were told that Latinos/Mexicans are taking away our jobs and using our resources. There is no evidence that they are actually doing harm but we need someone to blame.
> 
> Same reason why ObamaCare is not  accepted. Not from a black man that the haters want to believe came from Africa.
> 
> Fear and hate are more powerful than love. Love of each other or love of country. Neither can compete with the fear and hate we feel for those who are different.
Click to expand...


Nice strawman.


----------



## PaulS1950

Its a flag. It means different things to different indiviuals. Like bumper stickers - those who have them are judged by complete strangers because the stranger has no idea what it migt mean to the one who put it on their bumper.

To me it stands for the rights that states used to have before the federal government took them away. It is a warning that the same thing could happen to our individual rights.
I don't really care what it means to the rest of you - that is your personal right. Fly it or burn it - whichever you wish but do it knowing that you are exercising your right to free thought and free expression. Other rights that you may lose if you don't exercise them.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you even read what you write?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tribunals defined them as "crimes", not any German law or policy.
> "You are an idiot"
> Thought you were Mr. cool and calm there Moe.
> Does not take much to see right through you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You yourself defined them as crimes. But go ahead and crawfish out of it.
> 
> What makes you think I'm not calm? Oh by describing you as an idiot?  I just call 'em like I see 'em.
Click to expand...


They were crimes. What else would one define them as?
But they were not labeled as crimes under German law at that time.
Only an international tribunal labeled and punished them as crimes.
You know that now as we all had to educate you. You believed a German court held them accountable under German law.


----------



## Gadawg73

PaulS1950 said:


> Its a flag. It means different things to different indiviuals. Like bumper stickers - those who have them are judged by complete strangers because the stranger has no idea what it migt mean to the one who put it on their bumper.
> 
> To me it stands for the rights that states used to have before the federal government took them away. It is a warning that the same thing could happen to our individual rights.
> I don't really care what it means to the rest of you - that is your personal right. Fly it or burn it - whichever you wish but do it knowing that you are exercising your right to free thought and free expression. Other rights that you may lose if you don't exercise them.



To the dude that lives 4 miles north of me that has not seen a dentist in 8 years, smokes 4 packs of menthols a day, beats his wife, visits the militia in Alabama twice a year for "maneuvers", drinks a case of Natty Light a day and did 8 years in the slammer because his sister said he molested her it means ONE thing and one thing only.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The tribunals defined them as "crimes", not any German law or policy.
> "You are an idiot"
> Thought you were Mr. cool and calm there Moe.
> Does not take much to see right through you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You yourself defined them as crimes. But go ahead and crawfish out of it.
> 
> What makes you think I'm not calm? Oh by describing you as an idiot?  I just call 'em like I see 'em.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were crimes. What else would one define them as?
> But they were not labeled as crimes under German law at that time.
> Only an international tribunal labeled and punished them as crimes.
> You know that now as we all had to educate you. You believed a German court held them accountable under German law.
Click to expand...


Bottom line. Mass killing of innocent people. genocide if you will, is a crime. It is not legal and never will be legal no matter what dictator says it is.

I have never said one word about a "German court" or "German law".  That is a strawman argument of your creation.

You could not educate anyone on any topic.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> PaulS1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a flag. It means different things to different indiviuals. Like bumper stickers - those who have them are judged by complete strangers because the stranger has no idea what it migt mean to the one who put it on their bumper.
> 
> To me it stands for the rights that states used to have before the federal government took them away. It is a warning that the same thing could happen to our individual rights.
> I don't really care what it means to the rest of you - that is your personal right. Fly it or burn it - whichever you wish but do it knowing that you are exercising your right to free thought and free expression. Other rights that you may lose if you don't exercise them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the dude that lives 4 miles north of me that has not seen a dentist in 8 years, smokes 4 packs of menthols a day, beats his wife, visits the militia in Alabama twice a year for "maneuvers", drinks a case of Natty Light a day and did 8 years in the slammer because his sister said he molested her it means ONE thing and one thing only.
Click to expand...


So? Obviously you did not comprehend What Paul said. "It means different things to different indiviuals"


----------



## thanatos144

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PaulS1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a flag. It means different things to different indiviuals. Like bumper stickers - those who have them are judged by complete strangers because the stranger has no idea what it migt mean to the one who put it on their bumper.
> 
> To me it stands for the rights that states used to have before the federal government took them away. It is a warning that the same thing could happen to our individual rights.
> I don't really care what it means to the rest of you - that is your personal right. Fly it or burn it - whichever you wish but do it knowing that you are exercising your right to free thought and free expression. Other rights that you may lose if you don't exercise them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the dude that lives 4 miles north of me that has not seen a dentist in 8 years, smokes 4 packs of menthols a day, beats his wife, visits the militia in Alabama twice a year for "maneuvers", drinks a case of Natty Light a day and did 8 years in the slammer because his sister said he molested her it means ONE thing and one thing only.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So? Obviously you did not comprehend What Paul said. "It means different things to different indiviuals"
Click to expand...


Wake up it is the symbol of slave masters and traitors.....You are damn fool for worshiping it.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

thanatos144 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the dude that lives 4 miles north of me that has not seen a dentist in 8 years, smokes 4 packs of menthols a day, beats his wife, visits the militia in Alabama twice a year for "maneuvers", drinks a case of Natty Light a day and did 8 years in the slammer because his sister said he molested her it means ONE thing and one thing only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So? Obviously you did not comprehend What Paul said. "It means different things to different indiviuals"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wake up it is the symbol of slave masters and traitors.....You are damn fool for worshiping it.
Click to expand...


No one is worshipping anything. Get a grip.

Maybe you should read a history book.

You do know that there were in fact black confederates.

But why bother your bigoted self with silly facts.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You yourself defined them as crimes. But go ahead and crawfish out of it.
> 
> What makes you think I'm not calm? Oh by describing you as an idiot?  I just call 'em like I see 'em.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were crimes. What else would one define them as?
> But they were not labeled as crimes under German law at that time.
> Only an international tribunal labeled and punished them as crimes.
> You know that now as we all had to educate you. You believed a German court held them accountable under German law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bottom line. Mass killing of innocent people. genocide if you will, is a crime. It is not legal and never will be legal no matter what dictator says it is.
> 
> I have never said one word about a "German court" or "German law".  That is a strawman argument of your creation.
> 
> You could not educate anyone on any topic.
Click to expand...


Are you that narrow minded to believe that your, or any, generic definition of what is genocide and what is not had any validity under German policy in the 30s until the unconditional surrender of Germany to the Allies?
You claimed that it WAS NOT German policy to kill innocent folk.
And you were wrong and will not admit it now dancing around and away from it like a monkey on fire.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> So? Obviously you did not comprehend What Paul said. "It means different things to different indiviuals"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up it is the symbol of slave masters and traitors.....You are damn fool for worshiping it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one is worshipping anything. Get a grip.
> 
> Maybe you should read a history book.
> 
> You do know that there were in fact black confederates.
> 
> But why bother your bigoted self with silly facts.
Click to expand...


General Cleburne did offer, after many defeats, the idea of arming slaves in the Confederacy. Rejected once Judah Benjamin liked the idea. Davis went with it in late '64. It met FIERCE opposition with slave owners as they wanted to be compensated for that. Slaves were expensive as hell. Additionally, white officers were insulted that slaves would be in their ranks as soldiers. NC Governor Zebulon Vance wrote that this was a good idea to save slavery as all black soldiers would be kept in slavery as soldiers and after the war was won sent back to plantation owners. I am sure "black Confederates" rejoiced at that. 
Davis was a staunch advocate of opposition to emancipation of ALL slaves.
Any and all claims that any black Confederate was there because he wanted to be there are bogus to the core. 
NO slave wanted to be a slave and NO Confederate order of any kind anywhere exists which would have emancipated them for their military service exists. Yes, there were partial emancipation support all over as many southern newspapers ran editorials in support of it but plantation owners rejected it. Confederate Congress passed a bill in 65 with a slight majority that stated that ONLY owners of slaves that came forward to offer their slaves would be allowed. NO conscription as no way plantation owners would still back the Confederacy if slaves, THEIR PROPERTY, were taken from them.
The law itself DID NOT FREE A SINGLE SLAVE. 
The black Confederate argument is pure fiction and fable.


----------



## Luissa

thanatos144 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the dude that lives 4 miles north of me that has not seen a dentist in 8 years, smokes 4 packs of menthols a day, beats his wife, visits the militia in Alabama twice a year for "maneuvers", drinks a case of Natty Light a day and did 8 years in the slammer because his sister said he molested her it means ONE thing and one thing only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So? Obviously you did not comprehend What Paul said. "It means different things to different indiviuals"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wake up it is the symbol of slave masters and traitors.....You are damn fool for worshiping it.
Click to expand...


No it's not. 
The Civil War was all about state rights, and the fact the South was sick of being the North's cash cow. Slavery was just one of many issues. 
If someone flies the flag because they are racist then that is what it represents. Most of the time it has to do with southern pride and nothing more.


----------



## Aristotle

PaulS1950 said:


> Its a flag. It means different things to different indiviuals. Like bumper stickers - those who have them are judged by complete strangers because the stranger has no idea what it migt mean to the one who put it on their bumper.
> 
> To me it stands for the rights that states used to have before the federal government took them away. It is a warning that the same thing could happen to our individual rights.
> I don't really care what it means to the rest of you - that is your personal right. Fly it or burn it - whichever you wish but do it knowing that you are exercising your right to free thought and free expression. Other rights that you may lose if you don't exercise them.



How about this I'll use that flag to wipe my ass after I shit. That flag has no varying meaning it means what majority thinks it means....Racism


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They were crimes. What else would one define them as?
> But they were not labeled as crimes under German law at that time.
> Only an international tribunal labeled and punished them as crimes.
> You know that now as we all had to educate you. You believed a German court held them accountable under German law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line. Mass killing of innocent people. genocide if you will, is a crime. It is not legal and never will be legal no matter what dictator says it is.
> 
> I have never said one word about a "German court" or "German law".  That is a strawman argument of your creation.
> 
> You could not educate anyone on any topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you that narrow minded to believe that your, or any, generic definition of what is genocide and what is not had any validity under German policy in the 30s until the unconditional surrender of Germany to the Allies?
> You claimed that it WAS NOT German policy to kill innocent folk.
> And you were wrong and will not admit it now dancing around and away from it like a monkey on fire.
Click to expand...


Narrow minded? No. Does mt claims have validity. Yes.

I asked for evidence of such a policy. One that was written and passed through German legislation and made into law. So far, nothing has been provided. 

Seldom am I wrong.

Have you ever seen a monkey on fire?  I doubt very seriously that it would dance.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up it is the symbol of slave masters and traitors.....You are damn fool for worshiping it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one is worshipping anything. Get a grip.
> 
> Maybe you should read a history book.
> 
> You do know that there were in fact black confederates.
> 
> But why bother your bigoted self with silly facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> General Cleburne did offer, after many defeats, the idea of arming slaves in the Confederacy. Rejected once Judah Benjamin liked the idea. Davis went with it in late '64. It met FIERCE opposition with slave owners as they wanted to be compensated for that. Slaves were expensive as hell. Additionally, white officers were insulted that slaves would be in their ranks as soldiers. NC Governor Zebulon Vance wrote that this was a good idea to save slavery as all black soldiers would be kept in slavery as soldiers and after the war was won sent back to plantation owners. I am sure "black Confederates" rejoiced at that.
> Davis was a staunch advocate of opposition to emancipation of ALL slaves.
> Any and all claims that any black Confederate was there because he wanted to be there are bogus to the core.
> NO slave wanted to be a slave and NO Confederate order of any kind anywhere exists which would have emancipated them for their military service exists. Yes, there were partial emancipation support all over as many southern newspapers ran editorials in support of it but plantation owners rejected it. Confederate Congress passed a bill in 65 with a slight majority that stated that ONLY owners of slaves that came forward to offer their slaves would be allowed. NO conscription as no way plantation owners would still back the Confederacy if slaves, THEIR PROPERTY, were taken from them.
> The law itself DID NOT FREE A SINGLE SLAVE.
> The black Confederate argument is pure fiction and fable.
Click to expand...


link?


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Aristotle said:


> PaulS1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a flag. It means different things to different indiviuals. Like bumper stickers - those who have them are judged by complete strangers because the stranger has no idea what it migt mean to the one who put it on their bumper.
> 
> To me it stands for the rights that states used to have before the federal government took them away. It is a warning that the same thing could happen to our individual rights.
> I don't really care what it means to the rest of you - that is your personal right. Fly it or burn it - whichever you wish but do it knowing that you are exercising your right to free thought and free expression. Other rights that you may lose if you don't exercise them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about this I'll use that flag to wipe my ass after I shit. That flag has no varying meaning it means *what majority thinks it means....Racism*
Click to expand...


Prove it.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one is worshipping anything. Get a grip.
> 
> Maybe you should read a history book.
> 
> You do know that there were in fact black confederates.
> 
> But why bother your bigoted self with silly facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> General Cleburne did offer, after many defeats, the idea of arming slaves in the Confederacy. Rejected once Judah Benjamin liked the idea. Davis went with it in late '64. It met FIERCE opposition with slave owners as they wanted to be compensated for that. Slaves were expensive as hell. Additionally, white officers were insulted that slaves would be in their ranks as soldiers. NC Governor Zebulon Vance wrote that this was a good idea to save slavery as all black soldiers would be kept in slavery as soldiers and after the war was won sent back to plantation owners. I am sure "black Confederates" rejoiced at that.
> Davis was a staunch advocate of opposition to emancipation of ALL slaves.
> Any and all claims that any black Confederate was there because he wanted to be there are bogus to the core.
> NO slave wanted to be a slave and NO Confederate order of any kind anywhere exists which would have emancipated them for their military service exists. Yes, there were partial emancipation support all over as many southern newspapers ran editorials in support of it but plantation owners rejected it. Confederate Congress passed a bill in 65 with a slight majority that stated that ONLY owners of slaves that came forward to offer their slaves would be allowed. NO conscription as no way plantation owners would still back the Confederacy if slaves, THEIR PROPERTY, were taken from them.
> The law itself DID NOT FREE A SINGLE SLAVE.
> The black Confederate argument is pure fiction and fable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> link?
Click to expand...


Link my ass, took it at UGA in early 70s. Studied 3 quarters of the civil war.
As a true southerner by the grace of God I know my heritage.


----------



## Gadawg73

If you do not know any of what I posted Lonestar you know very little if anything of the civil war and it's history.
The original letters are in the Ga. and NC archives.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line. Mass killing of innocent people. genocide if you will, is a crime. It is not legal and never will be legal no matter what dictator says it is.
> 
> I have never said one word about a "German court" or "German law".  That is a strawman argument of your creation.
> 
> You could not educate anyone on any topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you that narrow minded to believe that your, or any, generic definition of what is genocide and what is not had any validity under German policy in the 30s until the unconditional surrender of Germany to the Allies?
> You claimed that it WAS NOT German policy to kill innocent folk.
> And you were wrong and will not admit it now dancing around and away from it like a monkey on fire.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Narrow minded? No. Does mt claims have validity. Yes.
> 
> I asked for evidence of such a policy. One that was written and passed through German legislation and made into law. So far, nothing has been provided.
> 
> Seldom am I wrong.
> 
> Have you ever seen a monkey on fire?  I doubt very seriously that it would dance.
Click to expand...


Policies do not have to be law anywhere I know of.
Where are government policies the law?


----------



## thanatos144

Luissa said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> So? Obviously you did not comprehend What Paul said. "It means different things to different indiviuals"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up it is the symbol of slave masters and traitors.....You are damn fool for worshiping it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it's not.
> The Civil War was all about state rights, and the fact the South was sick of being the North's cash cow. Slavery was just one of many issues.
> If someone flies the flag because they are racist then that is what it represents. Most of the time it has to do with southern pride and nothing more.
Click to expand...


It was about the states right to own people.....


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> General Cleburne did offer, after many defeats, the idea of arming slaves in the Confederacy. Rejected once Judah Benjamin liked the idea. Davis went with it in late '64. It met FIERCE opposition with slave owners as they wanted to be compensated for that. Slaves were expensive as hell. Additionally, white officers were insulted that slaves would be in their ranks as soldiers. NC Governor Zebulon Vance wrote that this was a good idea to save slavery as all black soldiers would be kept in slavery as soldiers and after the war was won sent back to plantation owners. I am sure "black Confederates" rejoiced at that.
> Davis was a staunch advocate of opposition to emancipation of ALL slaves.
> Any and all claims that any black Confederate was there because he wanted to be there are bogus to the core.
> NO slave wanted to be a slave and NO Confederate order of any kind anywhere exists which would have emancipated them for their military service exists. Yes, there were partial emancipation support all over as many southern newspapers ran editorials in support of it but plantation owners rejected it. Confederate Congress passed a bill in 65 with a slight majority that stated that ONLY owners of slaves that came forward to offer their slaves would be allowed. NO conscription as no way plantation owners would still back the Confederacy if slaves, THEIR PROPERTY, were taken from them.
> The law itself DID NOT FREE A SINGLE SLAVE.
> The black Confederate argument is pure fiction and fable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link my ass, took it at UGA in early 70s. Studied 3 quarters of the civil war.
> As a true southerner by the grace of God I know my heritage.
Click to expand...


Provide a link or STFU


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you that narrow minded to believe that your, or any, generic definition of what is genocide and what is not had any validity under German policy in the 30s until the unconditional surrender of Germany to the Allies?
> You claimed that it WAS NOT German policy to kill innocent folk.
> And you were wrong and will not admit it now dancing around and away from it like a monkey on fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Narrow minded? No. Does mt claims have validity. Yes.
> 
> I asked for evidence of such a policy. One that was written and passed through German legislation and made into law. So far, nothing has been provided.
> 
> Seldom am I wrong.
> 
> Have you ever seen a monkey on fire?  I doubt very seriously that it would dance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Policies do not have to be law anywhere I know of.
> Where are government policies the law?
Click to expand...


I accept your concession. You cannot provide evidence that any laws were passed that gave Germans the legal right to mass murder millions of innocent people. You talk of policy, well policy does not mean LEGAL.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> link?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link my ass, took it at UGA in early 70s. Studied 3 quarters of the civil war.
> As a true southerner by the grace of God I know my heritage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Provide a link or STFU
Click to expand...


A link to what? The Georgia Archives? The North Carolina Archives? 
I can provide a link that Elvis is alive and well.


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Narrow minded? No. Does mt claims have validity. Yes.
> 
> I asked for evidence of such a policy. One that was written and passed through German legislation and made into law. So far, nothing has been provided.
> 
> Seldom am I wrong.
> 
> Have you ever seen a monkey on fire?  I doubt very seriously that it would dance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Policies do not have to be law anywhere I know of.
> Where are government policies the law?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I accept your concession. You cannot provide evidence that any laws were passed that gave Germans the legal right to mass murder millions of innocent people. You talk of policy, well policy does not mean LEGAL.
Click to expand...


LOL, I was wrong about you Lonestar. You are full of shit.
YOU were the one that first made the claim that there were NO policies.
Never said policy makes anything legal.
What German law banned them from doing what they did?
You are like a 5 year old making it up as they go.
Mom must have never washed your mouth out with soap.


----------



## Political Junky

oldfart said:


> The "Stars and Bars" has been used prominently at KKK rallies and segregationist political events and demonstrations to this day.  To southern whites  it is the "Flag of Resistance" defying not only blacks but also northerners.  Check the video archives of any southern TV station and this becomes obvious.  This is still the meaning most connected to it by southern whites today.


As someone who grew up in the South, pre-Civil Rights Act, I agree with you.


----------



## Aristotle

Lonestar_logic said:


> Aristotle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PaulS1950 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a flag. It means different things to different indiviuals. Like bumper stickers - those who have them are judged by complete strangers because the stranger has no idea what it migt mean to the one who put it on their bumper.
> 
> To me it stands for the rights that states used to have before the federal government took them away. It is a warning that the same thing could happen to our individual rights.
> I don't really care what it means to the rest of you - that is your personal right. Fly it or burn it - whichever you wish but do it knowing that you are exercising your right to free thought and free expression. Other rights that you may lose if you don't exercise them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about this I'll use that flag to wipe my ass after I shit. That flag has no varying meaning it means *what majority thinks it means....Racism*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Prove it.
Click to expand...


Are you serious?

So coward klansmen who associate their ideology while waving the confederate flag is not proof enough? It is evident hardcore racist fly both U.S and Confederate flag


----------



## Luissa

thanatos144 said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up it is the symbol of slave masters and traitors.....You are damn fool for worshiping it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not.
> The Civil War was all about state rights, and the fact the South was sick of being the North's cash cow. Slavery was just one of many issues.
> If someone flies the flag because they are racist then that is what it represents. Most of the time it has to do with southern pride and nothing more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It was about the states right to own people.....
Click to expand...


That was one of the issues. 
How many pics have been circulated of someone flying a confederate flag with an Obama yard sign. 
If some racist is flying the flag believing it represents white pride, then that is how they feel... Some fly it just because they have Southern Pride. It is a flag with a lot of history, and if someone wants to fly it, so be it. 
And the KKK is racist because they fly the flag, they are racist because they are a bunch of bigot assholes who do not think minorities are equal.


----------



## Grandma

It's like this - The swastica is an eastern symbol of good luck. True fact, for those that didn't know. But Hitler put it on the nazi flag. At that initial point in time that swastica still meant good luck, or good fortune, but after the invasions and atrocities that symbol became associated with the worst kind of evil.

There have been groups trying to reclaim the original meanings of assorted symbols that Hitler and others corrupted. I was part of one group, very liberal and well-meaning. We didn't want anyone to forget Nazi Germany for what it was, we wanted to take back what was stolen from peaceful people of the world. It didn't work. Not at all.

The damage is done, whether it's a swastika or the rebel flag, any positive association is gone - permanently.


----------



## Two Thumbs

jwoodie said:


> Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans.  For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism.  For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.
> 
> I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.



The flag of a country that's long gone and barely existed.
Alabamas state flag.

All other symbology is utter non-sense


----------



## thanatos144

are you people still talking about this???? It doesn't matter what you think it is a symbol of! History proves it was the flag of slave owning racists thats a fact .....Whether or not some hillbilly thinks it is the bomb or some ghetto hood rat thinks it is the devil makes little difference. The great thing about this country is you have the freedom to think of it any fucking way. Well for a little while longer you do. Oh and you idiots who romanticize the confederate states????? They lost. Get over it.


----------



## Gadawg73

Flag or not there is no such thing as being too southern.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

thanatos144 said:


> are you people still talking about this???? It doesn't matter what you think it is a symbol of! History proves it was the flag of slave owning racists thats a fact .....Whether or not some hillbilly thinks it is the bomb or some ghetto hood rat thinks it is the devil makes little difference. The great thing about this country is you have the freedom to think of it any fucking way. Well for a little while longer you do. Oh and you idiots who romanticize the confederate states????? They lost. Get over it.



Were the Southern black slave owners also racist?


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> are you people still talking about this???? It doesn't matter what you think it is a symbol of! History proves it was the flag of slave owning racists thats a fact .....Whether or not some hillbilly thinks it is the bomb or some ghetto hood rat thinks it is the devil makes little difference. The great thing about this country is you have the freedom to think of it any fucking way. Well for a little while longer you do. Oh and you idiots who romanticize the confederate states????? They lost. Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were the Southern black slave owners also racist?
Click to expand...


A racist is someone that believes their race is superior to another.
So being of the same race how could they be racist?


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> are you people still talking about this???? It doesn't matter what you think it is a symbol of! History proves it was the flag of slave owning racists thats a fact .....Whether or not some hillbilly thinks it is the bomb or some ghetto hood rat thinks it is the devil makes little difference. The great thing about this country is you have the freedom to think of it any fucking way. Well for a little while longer you do. Oh and you idiots who romanticize the confederate states????? They lost. Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were the Southern black slave owners also racist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A racist is someone that believes their race is superior to another.
> So being of the same race how could they be racist?
Click to expand...


No shit sherlock!

Look, he made the comment that anyone that flew the confederate flag was a racist. I set out to prove he was an idiot. And I succeeded. 

Why do you insist on attempting to answer questions not directed at you?


----------



## thanatos144

Omg you are a dumbass lone


----------



## Gadawg73

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were the Southern black slave owners also racist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A racist is someone that believes their race is superior to another.
> So being of the same race how could they be racist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No shit sherlock!
> 
> Look, he made the comment that anyone that flew the confederate flag was a racist. I set out to prove he was an idiot. And I succeeded.
> 
> Why do you insist on attempting to answer questions not directed at you?
Click to expand...


Where did I answer any question?


----------



## Bigfoot

is a symbol of the brave men who fought and died carrying it into battle. Judging these men with today's point of view is at best an inept attempt to put one's own judgements and convictions above someone elses without the needed knowledge and experience to do so. It's a flag that Americans carried, fought and died with. God bless the brave soldiers of the southern states, may today's idiots let them rest in peace.


----------



## Gadawg73

Bigfoot said:


> is a symbol of the brave men who fought and died carrying it into battle. Judging these men with today's point of view is at best an inept attempt to put one's own judgements and convictions above someone elses without the needed knowledge and experience to do so. It's a flag that Americans carried, fought and died with. God bless the brave soldiers of the southern states, may today's idiots let them rest in peace.



Well said but you left out the other 147 years of the history of that flag.
The war has been over 147 years.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A racist is someone that believes their race is superior to another.
> So being of the same race how could they be racist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No shit sherlock!
> 
> Look, he made the comment that anyone that flew the confederate flag was a racist. I set out to prove he was an idiot. And I succeeded.
> 
> Why do you insist on attempting to answer questions not directed at you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did I answer any question?
Click to expand...


Read the thread dumbass.


----------



## thanatos144

Bigfoot said:


> is a symbol of the brave men who fought and died carrying it into battle. Judging these men with today's point of view is at best an inept attempt to put one's own judgements and convictions above someone elses without the needed knowledge and experience to do so. It's a flag that Americans carried, fought and died with. God bless the brave soldiers of the southern states, may today's idiots let them rest in peace.



So cause they died tryng to protect slavery they are brave?????Maybe they are but they sure picked a damn stupid principle to be brave about.


----------



## Gadawg73

So the Georgia Legislature that changed the flag back to the stars and bars during their fight against integration with the US Justice Department in the 50s after Brown v. Board of Education did so out of their support of their heritage.
Maybe so. 
The heritage then was to keep blacks in bondage through slavery and segregation in the 50s was to keep blacks out of white public schools.
Makes sense. Fly the Georgia state flag with the stars and bars because the heritage is to enslave blacks then and discriminate against them in the 50s.


----------



## thanatos144

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL8C94E735BE457E7A&v=s-QwMUjD8xg&feature=player_embedded]PJTV: ZoNation: Liberals and Democrats Are Racist, Not Republicans! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lonestar_logic

thanatos144 said:


> Bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is a symbol of the brave men who fought and died carrying it into battle. Judging these men with today's point of view is at best an inept attempt to put one's own judgements and convictions above someone elses without the needed knowledge and experience to do so. It's a flag that Americans carried, fought and died with. God bless the brave soldiers of the southern states, may today's idiots let them rest in peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So cause they died tryng to protect slavery they are brave?????Maybe they are but they sure picked a damn stupid principle to be brave about.
Click to expand...


Why do you choose to stay ignorant?

The civil war was about "states rights".


----------



## Lonestar_logic

Gadawg73 said:


> So the Georgia Legislature that changed the flag back to the stars and bars during their fight against integration with the US Justice Department in the 50s after Brown v. Board of Education did so out of their support of their heritage.
> Maybe so.
> The heritage then was to keep blacks in bondage through slavery and segregation in the 50s was to keep blacks out of white public schools.
> Makes sense. Fly the Georgia state flag with the stars and bars because the heritage is to enslave blacks then and discriminate against them in the 50s.



Another ignorant fool that has no clue why the civil war was waged.


----------



## thanatos144

Lonestar_logic said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is a symbol of the brave men who fought and died carrying it into battle. Judging these men with today's point of view is at best an inept attempt to put one's own judgements and convictions above someone elses without the needed knowledge and experience to do so. It's a flag that Americans carried, fought and died with. God bless the brave soldiers of the southern states, may today's idiots let them rest in peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So cause they died tryng to protect slavery they are brave?????Maybe they are but they sure picked a damn stupid principle to be brave about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you choose to stay ignorant?
> 
> The civil war was about "states rights".
Click to expand...


Why do you choose to lie about what right they wanted the states to have ?????


----------



## thanatos144

I do not ever praise democrats when it is about their racism.


----------



## Lonestar_logic

thanatos144 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So cause they died tryng to protect slavery they are brave?????Maybe they are but they sure picked a damn stupid principle to be brave about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you choose to stay ignorant?
> 
> The civil war was about "states rights".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you choose to lie about what right they wanted the states to have ?????
Click to expand...


I do not lie.

And I also do not confuse reality with facts as you appear to do.


----------



## thanatos144

Lonestar_logic said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you choose to stay ignorant?
> 
> The civil war was about "states rights".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you choose to lie about what right they wanted the states to have ?????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do not lie.
> 
> And I also do not confuse reality with facts as you appear to do.
Click to expand...


Fact is a bunch of democrats decided that white men had the right to own black men and separated from the country when other good men called them the scumbags they were....THEN the democrats started a war cause they were not able to spread their slave market into other areas in the country....Now we have fools like you who see them as heroes cause they bastardized state rights so they can be racist pigs.


----------



## LibertyLemming

The Confederate States?


----------



## Lonestar_logic

thanatos144 said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you choose to lie about what right they wanted the states to have ?????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not lie.
> 
> And I also do not confuse reality with facts as you appear to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fact is a bunch of democrats decided that white men had the right to own black men and separated from the country when other good men called them the scumbags they were....THEN the democrats started a war cause they were not able to spread their slave market into other areas in the country....Now we have fools like you who see them as heroes cause they bastardized state rights so they can be racist pigs.
Click to expand...


Try reading a history book sometime.


----------



## thanatos144

Lonestar_logic said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not lie.
> 
> And I also do not confuse reality with facts as you appear to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact is a bunch of democrats decided that white men had the right to own black men and separated from the country when other good men called them the scumbags they were....THEN the democrats started a war cause they were not able to spread their slave market into other areas in the country....Now we have fools like you who see them as heroes cause they bastardized state rights so they can be racist pigs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Try reading a history book sometime.
Click to expand...

That is history you fool.


----------



## Bigfoot

thanatos144 said:


> Bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is a symbol of the brave men who fought and died carrying it into battle. Judging these men with today's point of view is at best an inept attempt to put one's own judgements and convictions above someone elses without the needed knowledge and experience to do so. It's a flag that Americans carried, fought and died with. God bless the brave soldiers of the southern states, may today's idiots let them rest in peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So cause they died tryng to protect slavery they are brave?????Maybe they are but they sure picked a damn stupid principle to be brave about.
Click to expand...


Yes many of the southern soldiers were exceptionally brave. Out equipped and out gunned at almost every turn they often gave as good and better then they got. Fine men all, Union and Confederate, American soldiers. It's a real shame that ignorant people such as yourself try to take away what these brave men fought and died for with your pettiness. I am proud of the Americans who fought and died in that war and I don't care if they fought for the north or the south. Slavery wasn't their concern, it's just something some of today's ignorant people try to make an issue out of to try and further their own point of view about an issue that they are clearly ignorant of.


----------



## thanatos144

They fought to Fucking own other people! You think thats noble? Well I sure as fuck don't!


----------



## Gadawg73

Bigfoot said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is a symbol of the brave men who fought and died carrying it into battle. Judging these men with today's point of view is at best an inept attempt to put one's own judgements and convictions above someone elses without the needed knowledge and experience to do so. It's a flag that Americans carried, fought and died with. God bless the brave soldiers of the southern states, may today's idiots let them rest in peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So cause they died tryng to protect slavery they are brave?????Maybe they are but they sure picked a damn stupid principle to be brave about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes many of the southern soldiers were exceptionally brave. Out equipped and out gunned at almost every turn they often gave as good and better then they got. Fine men all, Union and Confederate, American soldiers. It's a real shame that ignorant people such as yourself try to take away what these brave men fought and died for with your pettiness. I am proud of the Americans who fought and died in that war and I don't care if they fought for the north or the south. Slavery wasn't their concern, it's just something some of today's ignorant people try to make an issue out of to try and further their own point of view about an issue that they are clearly ignorant of.
Click to expand...


Brother, we are on the same page. The men in the trenches be they north or south were there for their buddies in combat, nothing else. Same as all wars.
Am with you on this post. Well said.


----------



## Gadawg73

thanatos144 said:


> They fought to Fucking own other people! You think thats noble? Well I sure as fuck don't!



Most Confederate soldiers owned no slaves.


----------



## LibertyLemming

thanatos144 said:


> They fought to Fucking own other people! You think thats noble? Well I sure as fuck don't!



Government owns whatever percent in taxes you pay of your labor. Don't hear you btiching?


----------



## Gadawg73

The civil war was over 147 years ago.
Folk that fly the stars and bars NOW, CURRENTLY fly it with NO connection whatsoever with the war between the states.
147 years later. The civil war IS LONG OVER.


----------



## Bigfoot

Gadawg73 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They fought to Fucking own other people! You think thats noble? Well I sure as fuck don't!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Confederate soldiers owned no slaves.
Click to expand...


He doesn't care about accuracy or truth, he has an agenda full of hate that he gets off on trying to push. I doubt that he will ever try and educate himself on the subject, he doesn't want to challenge his own point of view with the facts.


----------



## thanatos144

Bigfoot said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They fought to Fucking own other people! You think thats noble? Well I sure as fuck don't!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Confederate soldiers owned no slaves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He doesn't care about accuracy or truth, he has an agenda full of hate that he gets off on trying to push. I doubt that he will ever try and educate himself on the subject, he doesn't want to challenge his own point of view with the facts.
Click to expand...


Listen jackwagon I am not the one delving in to romatic ideals about slave owning confederates. It doesn't matter if the men in the trenches owned slaves cause if they were confederates the fought to protect the fat ass racist democrat fucks who did..... It wasnt freedom or liberty that the confederates were about it was slavery and facism. They perverted the cause of state rights to further evil  slaving ways. That's history, that's the Fucking truth.


----------



## Gadawg73

thanatos144 said:


> Bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most Confederate soldiers owned no slaves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't care about accuracy or truth, he has an agenda full of hate that he gets off on trying to push. I doubt that he will ever try and educate himself on the subject, he doesn't want to challenge his own point of view with the facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Listen jackwagon I am not the one delving in to romatic ideals about slave owning confederates. It doesn't matter if the men in the trenches owned slaves cause if they were confederates the fought to protect the fat ass racist democrat fucks who did..... It wasnt freedom or liberty that the confederates were about it was slavery and facism. They perverted the cause of state rights to further evil  slaving ways. That's history, that's the Fucking truth.
Click to expand...


Ever fought in a war?
Warriors, men in the trenches and the front lines do not give a shit about any ideology.
They fight for survival.
Do you really believe the soldiers in the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea and specifically Viet Nam cared JACK SHIT about any political ideology when fighting in the trenches?
"I am fighting for slavery" is what you believe the southern Confederate had in mind when he led a charge in battle.
He could have cared less.
Flag is another issue altogether. Get real my brother. I know.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Gadawg73 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't care about accuracy or truth, he has an agenda full of hate that he gets off on trying to push. I doubt that he will ever try and educate himself on the subject, he doesn't want to challenge his own point of view with the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Listen jackwagon I am not the one delving in to romatic ideals about slave owning confederates. It doesn't matter if the men in the trenches owned slaves cause if they were confederates the fought to protect the fat ass racist democrat fucks who did..... It wasnt freedom or liberty that the confederates were about it was slavery and facism. They perverted the cause of state rights to further evil  slaving ways. That's history, that's the Fucking truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever fought in a war?
> Warriors, men in the trenches and the front lines do not give a shit about any ideology.
> They fight for survival.
> Do you really believe the soldiers in the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea and specifically Viet Nam cared JACK SHIT about any political ideology when fighting in the trenches?
> "I am fighting for slavery" is what you believe the southern Confederate had in mind when he led a charge in battle.
> He could have cared less.
> Flag is another issue altogether. Get real my brother. I know.
Click to expand...


Some *enlist *for more noble reasons. Some for less noble reasons.


----------



## thanatos144

Gadawg73 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't care about accuracy or truth, he has an agenda full of hate that he gets off on trying to push. I doubt that he will ever try and educate himself on the subject, he doesn't want to challenge his own point of view with the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Listen jackwagon I am not the one delving in to romatic ideals about slave owning confederates. It doesn't matter if the men in the trenches owned slaves cause if they were confederates the fought to protect the fat ass racist democrat fucks who did..... It wasnt freedom or liberty that the confederates were about it was slavery and facism. They perverted the cause of state rights to further evil  slaving ways. That's history, that's the Fucking truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever fought in a war?
> Warriors, men in the trenches and the front lines do not give a shit about any ideology.
> They fight for survival.
> Do you really believe the soldiers in the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea and specifically Viet Nam cared JACK SHIT about any political ideology when fighting in the trenches?
> "I am fighting for slavery" is what you believe the southern Confederate had in mind when he led a charge in battle.
> He could have cared less.
> Flag is another issue altogether. Get real my brother. I know.
Click to expand...

I believe that my grandfathers and father fought for the American way ...... I also believe that the confederates were fight fot the confederate way and that way was slavery.


----------



## LibertyLemming

You could almost argue they fought for the Union granted Constitutional right to secede.


----------



## thanatos144

LibertyLemming said:


> You could almost argue they fought for the Union granted Constitutional right to secede.



Except there isn't one.


----------



## LibertyLemming

thanatos144 said:


> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could almost argue they fought for the Union granted Constitutional right to secede.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except there isn't one.
Click to expand...


We just did this on another thread so I'll just quote reply it.



Kevin_Kennedy said:


> OohPooPahDoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bolded it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Constitution establishes a more perfect union. Says so in the preamble.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And of course the Preamble sounds nice, but means absolutely nothing. The 10th Amendment, on the other hand, clearly makes secession legal since it is nowhere prohibited to the states in the Constitution.
Click to expand...


----------



## thanatos144

LibertyLemming said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could almost argue they fought for the Union granted Constitutional right to secede.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except there isn't one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We just did this on another thread so I'll just quote reply it.
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin_Kennedy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OohPooPahDoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Constitution establishes a more perfect union. Says so in the preamble.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And of course the Preamble sounds nice, but means absolutely nothing. The 10th Amendment, on the other hand, clearly makes secession legal since it is nowhere prohibited to the states in the Constitution.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


It clearly doesn't.


----------



## Gadawg73

LibertyLemming said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Listen jackwagon I am not the one delving in to romatic ideals about slave owning confederates. It doesn't matter if the men in the trenches owned slaves cause if they were confederates the fought to protect the fat ass racist democrat fucks who did..... It wasnt freedom or liberty that the confederates were about it was slavery and facism. They perverted the cause of state rights to further evil  slaving ways. That's history, that's the Fucking truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever fought in a war?
> Warriors, men in the trenches and the front lines do not give a shit about any ideology.
> They fight for survival.
> Do you really believe the soldiers in the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea and specifically Viet Nam cared JACK SHIT about any political ideology when fighting in the trenches?
> "I am fighting for slavery" is what you believe the southern Confederate had in mind when he led a charge in battle.
> He could have cared less.
> Flag is another issue altogether. Get real my brother. I know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some *enlist *for more noble reasons. Some for less noble reasons.
Click to expand...


Officers maybe but take a look at the shoeless Confederate soldiers in the war and tell me they were fighting for a noble cause.
They were too far from home to desert so they stuck with it.
And did an amazing job at it against superior forces.
You fight for your buddies.


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## Gadawg73

thanatos144 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Listen jackwagon I am not the one delving in to romatic ideals about slave owning confederates. It doesn't matter if the men in the trenches owned slaves cause if they were confederates the fought to protect the fat ass racist democrat fucks who did..... It wasnt freedom or liberty that the confederates were about it was slavery and facism. They perverted the cause of state rights to further evil  slaving ways. That's history, that's the Fucking truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever fought in a war?
> Warriors, men in the trenches and the front lines do not give a shit about any ideology.
> They fight for survival.
> Do you really believe the soldiers in the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea and specifically Viet Nam cared JACK SHIT about any political ideology when fighting in the trenches?
> "I am fighting for slavery" is what you believe the southern Confederate had in mind when he led a charge in battle.
> He could have cared less.
> Flag is another issue altogether. Get real my brother. I know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe that my grandfathers and father fought for the American way ...... I also believe that the confederates were fight fot the confederate way and that way was slavery.
Click to expand...


The politicians yes but not the grunts in the field.


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## Polk

Lonestar_logic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, let's see that policy.
> 
> Oh and if it was perfectly legal why were so many people that were involved convicted of war crimes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Germany it was legal. State policy, there were various laws to send them and kill them in the camps.
> Deportation orders, denaturalization orders.
> Laws to prevent people with disabilities from having kids, then sent to camps.
> Nuremberg Laws
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's true then produce the policy that made mass killing innocent people legal. And if it was legal why the convictions?
> 
> Just because you people say so. doesn't make it it so.
> 
> Put up or shut up.
Click to expand...


Why the convictions? Because the victors write the rules. Except, interesting enough, the insurrection we are talking about in this thread.


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## Polk

Grandma said:


> It's like this - The swastica is an eastern symbol of good luck. True fact, for those that didn't know. But Hitler put it on the nazi flag. At that initial point in time that swastica still meant good luck, or good fortune, but after the invasions and atrocities that symbol became associated with the worst kind of evil.
> 
> There have been groups trying to reclaim the original meanings of assorted symbols that Hitler and others corrupted. I was part of one group, very liberal and well-meaning. We didn't want anyone to forget Nazi Germany for what it was, we wanted to take back what was stolen from peaceful people of the world. It didn't work. Not at all.
> 
> The damage is done, whether it's a swastika or the rebel flag, any positive association is gone - permanently.



This is actually worse. The swastika had meaning independent of the Nazi usage. The "independent" usage here is actually part of thing people are criticizing.


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## thanatos144

Gadawg73 said:


> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever fought in a war?
> Warriors, men in the trenches and the front lines do not give a shit about any ideology.
> They fight for survival.
> Do you really believe the soldiers in the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea and specifically Viet Nam cared JACK SHIT about any political ideology when fighting in the trenches?
> "I am fighting for slavery" is what you believe the southern Confederate had in mind when he led a charge in battle.
> He could have cared less.
> Flag is another issue altogether. Get real my brother. I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some *enlist *for more noble reasons. Some for less noble reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Officers maybe but take a look at the shoeless Confederate soldiers in the war and tell me they were fighting for a noble cause.
> They were too far from home to desert so they stuck with it.
> And did an amazing job at it against superior forces.
> You fight for your buddies.
Click to expand...

What elitist tripe you post..... How pathetic can you be to think the rank and file are so lacking of patriotism.....


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## Political Junky

Jon Stewart said that Southerners hang onto the Confederate Flag like some hold onto their fat pants after losing weight.
Low and behold several are talking of secession.


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## Gadawg73

thanatos144 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some *enlist *for more noble reasons. Some for less noble reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Officers maybe but take a look at the shoeless Confederate soldiers in the war and tell me they were fighting for a noble cause.
> They were too far from home to desert so they stuck with it.
> And did an amazing job at it against superior forces.
> You fight for your buddies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What elitist tripe you post..... How pathetic can you be to think the rank and file are so lacking of patriotism.....
Click to expand...


You ever been shot at?
Never said anyone lacked "patriotism"
When your ass is in the shits there are no patriots. 
That is TV stuff.


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## thanatos144

Gadawg73 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Officers maybe but take a look at the shoeless Confederate soldiers in the war and tell me they were fighting for a noble cause.
> They were too far from home to desert so they stuck with it.
> And did an amazing job at it against superior forces.
> You fight for your buddies.
> 
> 
> 
> What elitist tripe you post..... How pathetic can you be to think the rank and file are so lacking of patriotism.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You ever been shot at?
> Never said anyone lacked "patriotism"
> When your ass is in the shits there are no patriots.
> That is TV stuff.
Click to expand...

No you said they were idiots who fight for nothing.


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## Gadawg73

thanatos144 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What elitist tripe you post..... How pathetic can you be to think the rank and file are so lacking of patriotism.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You ever been shot at?
> Never said anyone lacked "patriotism"
> When your ass is in the shits there are no patriots.
> That is TV stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No you said they were idiots who fight for nothing.
Click to expand...


No I did not.
I specifically stated "they did an amazing job".
Liar.


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