# How Much Should We Fine Them per day ???



## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

Animas River Massive Waste Spill Turns River Orange

A Massive Waste Spill Turned This River in Colorado Orange
Maya Rhodan @m_rhodan  Aug. 6, 2015    

Jerry McBride—Durango Herald


Mine waste from the Gold King Mine north of Silverton fills the Animas River at Bakers Bridge on Aug. 6, 2015 in Durango, Colo.


*The EPA accidentally caused the spill, reports say*

About 1 million gallons of mine waste spilled into a Colorado waterway on Wednesday, turning the water bright orange and prompting officials to warn residents to avoid recreational use of the Animas River.

San Juan County health officials say the Environmental Protection Agency and the state Division of Reclamation, Mining and Safety were investigating 

another contamination when they “unexpectedly triggered a large release of mine waste water into the upper portions of Cement Creek.” Cement Creek is a tributary of the Animas River.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

GuaranDamnTeed.. Nobody will be fired... No fines. No Court cases.. No calls for more legislation...

Mental midget desk jockeys and paper shufflers out in the woods for a field trip..


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## Derideo_Te (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> The EPA accidentally caused the spill, reports say



Besides the single sentence in the link that the OP used where is the evidence that the EPA actually caused the spill?


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## westwall (Aug 7, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
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Reading is fundamental.....

*"San Juan County health officials say the Environmental Protection Agency and the state Division of Reclamation, Mining and Safety were investigating another contamination when they “unexpectedly triggered a large release of mine waste water into the upper portions of Cement Creek.”* Cement Creek is a tributary of the Animas River."


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## HereWeGoAgain (Aug 7, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
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 Seriously?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
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Well before the fines and jail sentencing is handed out -- we can confirm all that right??


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## Derideo_Te (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


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Absolutely!

But even the EPA has the right to the presumption of innocence given that the media doesn't have the greatest track record when it comes to getting the facts right.


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## Hossfly (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> GuaranDamnTeed.. Nobody will be fired... No fines. No Court cases.. No calls for more legislation...
> 
> Mental midget desk jockeys and paper shufflers out in the woods for a field trip..


Disband the EPA. Each State has an Enviromental Division.


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 7, 2015)

They better clean that up.  Fortunately it won't cause even a fraction as much destruction as something like the Deepwater Horizon spill caused.  It seems that river was already pretty bereft of wildlife because of steady contamination over the decades due to mining that occured before EPA regulations were in place.  And further down there's been just a small spike in acidity.


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## DrDoomNGloom (Aug 7, 2015)

*Environment*
*Animas River fouled by 1 million gallons of contaminated mine water*
*EPA accidently releases water; Durango residents warned to cut back on water use as health officials evaluate river*
*By Jesse Paul and Bruce Finley*
_The Denver Post_
Posted:   08/06/2015 11:27:26 AM MDT | Updated:   about 8 hours ago


DURANGO — A spill that sent 1 million gallons of wastewater from an abandoned mine into the Animas River, turning the river orange, set off warnings Thursday that contaminants threaten water quality for those downstream.

The Environmental Protection Agency confirmed it triggered the spill while using heavy machinery to investigate pollutants at the Gold King Mine, north of Silverton.

Health and environmental officials are evaluating the river as it flows through San Juan and La Plata counties. They said the wastewater contained zinc, iron, copper and other heavy metals, prompting the EPA to warn agricultural users to shut off water intakes along the river and law officials to close the river to recreational users.

People kayak in the Animas River near Durango on Thursday in water colored from a mine waste spill. (_Jerry McBride, The Durango Herald_)
"There's nothing that can be done to stop the flow of the river," said Joe Lewandowski, a spokesman for Colorado Parks and Wildlife. "We can only wait until the flows slow down. We had a big heavy spring (of rain) here."

Lewandowski said the EPA is testing to determine the river's metal levels and results should be returned by mid-Friday.

Animas River fouled by 1 million gallons of contaminated mine water - The Denver Post


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


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Except when it's the New York Times and any story about Leftists..


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

DrDoomNGloom said:


> *Environment*
> *Animas River fouled by 1 million gallons of contaminated mine water*
> *EPA accidently releases water; Durango residents warned to cut back on water use as health officials evaluate river*
> *By Jesse Paul and Bruce Finley*
> ...



Don't you feel so much better that the EPA is "testing the water" ???  What land borders that river? How much acreage is gonna be polluted with heavy metals for a millenium..  Where's the Congressional hearings? The demands for a "clean-up".. 

Does the EPA think those heavy metals are gonna STAY in the river bed.


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## mamooth (Aug 7, 2015)

So is there any point here somewhere, or it is just an excuse for yet another rightwing sulkfest about the EPA?


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 7, 2015)

mamooth said:


> So is there any point here somewhere, or it is just an excuse for yet another rightwing sulkfest about the EPA?


Sulkfest.  Nvm that if the EPA had been around when the mine that caused the contamination was active, it would never have been able to operate in the first place and this couldn't then have happened.


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## Derideo_Te (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> DrDoomNGloom said:
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Assuming that the EPA is responsible for this single spill, how many spills have been prevented by the EPA and how many spills have corporations caused?

The EPA was only formed because of corporate pollution so it isn't as though corporations were "good citizens" and didn't harm the environment and cleaned up after themselves. (That only happens in Libertarian Utopialand where unicorns fart milk and honey.  )

Seriously, the EPA does have to deal with this spill but it was the for profit mine that was digging up those heavy metals in the first place, not the EPA.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

mamooth said:


> So is there any point here somewhere, or it is just an excuse for yet another rightwing sulkfest about the EPA?



How many folks are getting fired? Who's gonna pay damages and cleanup?

 It's ALMOST a sulkfest, but I'd describe it more as outrage at how little consequence there will be for this incompetence.. 

BTW -- for the USMB staff geologists -- what is Yellow like that in mining tailings? Sulphur?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


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Last mining spill I was sad about was the coal ash dam collapse here in Tenn. But then -- that was a TVA plant (govt cousins and all) and it's STILL not cleaned up.. Fact is -- even without the accidents,  the Federal Govt is by far one of this nation's biggest polluters.. IT gets away with storing thousands of leaking barrels of radioactive waste from it's weapons plants and just shuffling them around. There are bulldozers on those sites that are more radioactive than Chernobyl.. And nobody seems to care about kicking them in the ass and getting the FEDS to clean up their own messes...


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## HenryBHough (Aug 7, 2015)

Where IS the left when they should be on The Mall in DC  building a gallows to hang those polluters?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


> mamooth said:
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> > So is there any point here somewhere, or it is just an excuse for yet another rightwing sulkfest about the EPA?
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And maybe -- we couldn't have had a space program or an aerospace industry that depends on supplies of rare materials. Oh WAIT -- that's what happening NOW.. When all our "rare metals" are coming from Asia because of regulation and harrassment of mining operations..


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## westwall (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> mamooth said:
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> > So is there any point here somewhere, or it is just an excuse for yet another rightwing sulkfest about the EPA?
> ...






Sulfer, limonite, and carnotite are the most common in that area.  Especially sulfer which will be the top most layer of a supergene enrichment.  The limonite would be the source of the gossen cap that the old miners would have used to determine where to dig.


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


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Yeah, and our NASA budget being reduced to barely anything has NOTHING to do with it right?  And today there is just sooooo much demand for space flight in the private industry right?  And they're being stymied by the EPA blocking rare metals from them!  Lol are you kidding?


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## westwall (Aug 7, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


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Ummm, that would be Obama's fault.  Obama has gutted the NASA budget so he could give his cronies and friends taxpayer dollars for "green" energy projects................ that keep failing.


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## HenryBHough (Aug 7, 2015)

You just wait.

Any day now Solyndra will be back with a design for a solar powered vehicle that'll make flights to Venus cheap and convenient.

But first they need another trillion or so........


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


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Products from those mines powered our Industrial Age in America. Today, there's no demand here for raw materials in that volume because we don't MANUFACTURE anything here anymore.. My entire supply chain for components and materials shifted from almost entirely Domestic supply to almost totally foreign in the activist portion of the EPA existence..  Not the ONLY REASON. But it is a critical reason for that shift.. 

You want your electric cars and windmills and solar panels made in this country? Or don'tcha care?


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 7, 2015)

westwall said:


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Yeah Obama's been terrible for NASA.  So have the last several Presidents.  And people in this country don't care.  Look how little attention private space travel receives.  But noooo it's because the EPA passes regulations to prevent our waterways being poisoned?  Gimme a break.


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


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Those mines powered the industrial revolution?  Yeah, and people used to just die in those mines constantly.  And rivers were full of poison.  And people caught the black lung, and workers had no rights, and smog swallowed all the air, etc.

And plenty of electric cars, windmills, and solar panels ARE made in this country.


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## westwall (Aug 7, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


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And more people live longer because of industrialization.  Truly guy, you need to read some history.  Without industrialization you would be living to an average life span of around 40 years.  Would be miserable most of the time.  Would be malnourished, uneducated, and most likely would never leave an area of around 5 miles form your home.  Ever.

Industrialization has made it possible for more people to lead easier, longer,  lives than would ever have been possible without it.


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## HenryBHough (Aug 7, 2015)

Of course Obama is defunding NASA!

You think He wants to risk their finding the planet on which He was hatched?


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## Mr. H. (Aug 7, 2015)

I think it's pretty. Orange you glad it isn't banana yellow?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


> flacaltenn said:
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> > Products from those mines powered our Industrial Age in America. Today, there's no demand here for raw materials in that volume because we don't MANUFACTURE anything here anymore.. My entire supply chain for components and materials shifted from almost entirely Domestic supply to almost totally foreign in the activist portion of the EPA existence..  Not the ONLY REASON. But it is a critical reason for that shift..
> ...




Why the Nissan Leaf is labeled made in the USA even though 80 percent of it is actually made in Japan VentureBeat Green by VentureBeat


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

folks who think we produce much of ANYTHING here anymore better wake the fuck up...
Whereyabeen OldSchool??? 

Here's your "US" solar panel producers

U.S. solar industry Lots of energy not many panels.

*The solar industry is positively booming in the U.S. The annual installation of solar systems rose from 1.265 megawatts in 2008 to 4.75 gigawatts in 2013. From nowhere, America has emerged as the third-largest market for solar. Installers are carpeting the nation’s deserts, parking lots, and rooftops with polysilicon panels that convert sunlight into electrons.

While the U.S. is manufacturing a lot of solar energy, production of solar panels has been another story entirely. The two biggest solar panel manufacturers headquartered in the U.S., First Solar and SunPower, have located most of their manufacturing capacity in Southeast Asia. Many recent startups have gone kaput, including Solyndra, which became a poster child for government-subsidized failure. In January, Sharp Solar said it would stop manufacturing solar panels in Memphis, Tennessee.
*
Ya might do better with the Wind Industry because of the manufacturing tax credits  that GE sucks up every year. But I'll bet most of the complex compounded metals are made from Imported materials..


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## westwall (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> folks who think we produce much of ANYTHING here anymore better wake the fuck up...
> Whereyabeen OldSchool???
> 
> Here's your "US" solar panel producers
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I know the owners of Reno Salvage, they tell me that ALL of their scrap metal go's to China.  We knock down the buildings and all that material go's to China which then re-manufactures the steel and other metals and then they either use them over there or send them back here and charge an arm and a leg for them.


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 7, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


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Nissan is a Japanese brand.  You been drinkin?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 7, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


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It's sold as assembled right here in Tenn USA. Nissan Headquarters in the Nashville region (recently stolen from SoCal. Check the Chevy Volt you'll find about 40 or 50% imported content.. 

Boy.. CNN and Money MAg must be drinking too. Because TODAY in the waning era of US manufacturing -- this is what is called "Made in the USA"... 

Nissan Leaf to be manufactured in U.S. - Jan. 9 2013 
*Nissan Leaf to be manufactured in U.S.*


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## longknife (Aug 8, 2015)

The first articles I read on this gleefully blared about how mine owners caused this spill, somehow making it a case against greed and not caring about the environment.


Now we learned the oh-so-esteemed EPA caused it!


Read more @ http://www.newsweek.com/epa-causes-...llion-gallons-mining-waste-turns-river-361019


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 8, 2015)

longknife said:


> The first articles I read on this gleefully blared about how mine owners caused this spill, somehow making it a case against greed and not caring about the environment.
> 
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> Now we learned the oh-so-esteemed EPA caused it!
> ...



Yep the morons at the EPA did it.... Because they didn't listen to the mine owner or use commonsense..  Those EPA individuals should be held to account and pay the cost of clean up due to their stupidity. I love how the Obama EPA blames someone else for EVERYTHING those morons do.

Long past time to defund the federal EPA and leave this to the states.


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## mamooth (Aug 8, 2015)

Check out all the environment-haters working their hardest to let the actual polluters off the hook.

Look, if the dam broke because a backhoe bumped it, it wasn't going to last long anyways. The EPA's accident just accelerated the failure. And they apologized for it, admitting the small part they played.

The real story, of course, would be the environmental rapists who created the sludge. Protect them, conservatives! Your masters demand it!


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## flacaltenn (Aug 8, 2015)

mamooth said:


> Check out all the environment-haters working their hardest to let the actual polluters off the hook.
> 
> Look, if the dam broke because a backhoe bumped it, it wasn't going to last long anyways. The EPA's accident just accelerated the failure. And they apologized for it, admitting the small part they played.
> 
> The real story, of course, would be the environmental rapists who created the sludge. Protect them, conservatives! Your masters demand it!




Gee..  They APOLOGIZED?? Oh my. That's a different story.. Now I have no reason to want people fired or Congressional hearings, or court dates or PER DAY fines of $1M til they clean it up.. Thanx for pointing that out. It changes EVERYTHING..


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## mamooth (Aug 9, 2015)

Why do you think apologizing is all they did?

As usual, that's your strawman, so there's no need to address it.


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## skookerasbil (Aug 9, 2015)

Anybody who really thinks the EPA is about improving the environment has a plate in their head.


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## skookerasbil (Aug 9, 2015)

mamooth said:


> Why do you think apologizing is all they did?
> 
> As usual, that's your strawman, so there's no need to address it.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Aug 9, 2015)

But without the government, who would protect our waterways........

EPA crew accidentally turns Animas River orange - CNN.com


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## Stephanie (Aug 9, 2015)

I mean SERIOUSLY, and then they are going to write the rules for how we can live with GloBULL warming (UNTIL that wasn't working then they changed it to: climate change to trick you with it).

EPA, BLM, DOE, ETC needs to be DEFUNED and boarded up. think of how much more money that MONSTER of a Federal government would have and then can get OFF OUR BACKS


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 9, 2015)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> But without the government, who would protect our waterways........
> 
> EPA crew accidentally turns Animas River orange - CNN.com


If the EPA had existed in the 1800's when this mine created all these toxic materials, they never would have been allowed to operate the way they did, and this would never have had a chance of happening.


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## Derideo_Te (Aug 9, 2015)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> But without the government, who would protect our waterways........
> 
> EPA crew accidentally turns Animas River orange - CNN.com



Didn't flacaltenn already have a thread on this exact same topic?


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## LordBrownTrout (Aug 9, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


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They only apologized 300 times.  They opened up an area of acid and it flowed through a tributary into the animas river.  I was fishing it and then noticed this beautiful brown hue.....and then got the hell out of their from the acid burning the eyes.


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## Ernie S. (Aug 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> GuaranDamnTeed.. Nobody will be fired... No fines. No Court cases.. No calls for more legislation...
> 
> Mental midget desk jockeys and paper shufflers out in the woods for a field trip..


Should be fining the EPA a sum equal to their operating budget for the next 5 years.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 9, 2015)

LordBrownTrout said:


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You mean like physically in the river fishing when it happened? Or are you just channeling your dear departed BrownTrout cousins..

These guys have to put "test fish" into the water to see if it's safe for fish.. Any mental midget will tell you it's not..


Ernie S. said:


> flacaltenn said:
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Should make it comparable to what the mine would have been fined. So say maybe $100,000 a day until one of their employees drinks a gallon of it.. I want to see someone ANYONE EVER get fired from a bureaucratic job with the FEDs.  How many fish can you kill and NOT get fired? Too bad we don't have a dead famous lion.. THEN somebody might be fired..


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## Ernie S. (Aug 9, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


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The EPA doesn't pass shit. They write regulations without congressional approval, completely bypassing the will of the people.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 9, 2015)

Ernie S. said:


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Actually for decades now --- Congress has stopped WRITING LAW.. They pass "fill in the blank" legislation that REQUIRES the agencies to figure it out and add the rules. IT's CONGRESS's fault that agencies like EPA now have so much power and Congress doesn't.. Congress abdicated the job because they have too many ASSUMED responsibilities that they should NOT have.. And because they know NOTHING about science or technology or how things work...


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Aug 9, 2015)

"How Much Should We Fine Them per day ???"

The fails as a false comparison fallacy, in addition to being ignorant and ridiculous.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 9, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "How Much Should We Fine Them per day ???"
> 
> The fails as a false comparison fallacy, in addition to being ignorant and ridiculous.



So you say.....  How much we owe you Counselor for the "ignorant and ridiculous" part? 

Was it a negligent act resulting in severe breach of the law?  Does a Fed Agency have immunity from it's own laws? SHOULD THEY? And who gets the bill for all the collateral damages in this case? Seems to me every property owner that has contact with that river --- now has cause to sue..


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## Ernie S. (Aug 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


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Including those that have discolored well water


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 9, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
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The mines owners have standing to sue.. They informed them that their actions would result in sever damage to the retaining pond.. Which it did.  This borders on, if it is not, Gross Negligence.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 9, 2015)

I know that the TVA which is Federally owned corporation with all it's Directors appointed by the Prez was sued several times for the COal Ash spill here in Tenn.. If that's what it takes to get accountability for this kind of accident or negligience, maybe all EPA field operations should be done under a similar Federal corporation.. 

Add to that the million tons of improperly stored nuclear waste stored at several US nuclear bomb facilities that have been neglected for decades.. Probably the worst case of US pollution on the charts right now.. What do we need to do to get the Feds accountable for this crap they untaken??


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## LordBrownTrout (Aug 10, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


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I was there actually fishing.  I was stopping over in durango for a night after being up in montana for a month.  The stench was unbearable.  The animas is such a nice river.  It sucks that this happened.


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## Stephanie (Aug 10, 2015)

If it's found they contaminated the people drinking waters. they need to do a CLASS action lawsuit against the EPA. that's the only way they are going to brought back under "We the peoples" control.

right now this MONSTER of a Government is out of CONTROL and just Steamrolling over us.


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## LordBrownTrout (Aug 10, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "How Much Should We Fine Them per day ???"
> 
> The fails as a false comparison fallacy, in addition to being ignorant and ridiculous.


 

Why does it fail?  Oil companies aren't exempted when they have accidents.....nor should they be exempted.


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## jc456 (Aug 10, 2015)

mamooth said:


> Check out all the environment-haters working their hardest to let the actual polluters off the hook.
> 
> Look, if the dam broke because a backhoe bumped it, it wasn't going to last long anyways. The EPA's accident just accelerated the failure. And they apologized for it, admitting the small part they played.
> 
> The real story, of course, would be the environmental rapists who created the sludge. Protect them, conservatives! Your masters demand it!


why did they delay in actually admitting it?


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## jc456 (Aug 10, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


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they admitted it


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## jc456 (Aug 10, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


> They better clean that up.  Fortunately it won't cause even a fraction as much destruction as something like the Deepwater Horizon spill caused.  It seems that river was already pretty bereft of wildlife because of steady contamination over the decades due to mining that occured before EPA regulations were in place.  And further down there's been just a small spike in acidity.


too funny.  It's ok because of history.  Too funny dude.  It's jokers like you that shame the US of A.


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 10, 2015)

jc456 said:


> TheOldSchool said:
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> > They better clean that up.  Fortunately it won't cause even a fraction as much destruction as something like the Deepwater Horizon spill caused.  It seems that river was already pretty bereft of wildlife because of steady contamination over the decades due to mining that occured before EPA regulations were in place.  And further down there's been just a small spike in acidity.
> ...


^ Dumb


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## mamooth (Aug 10, 2015)

Given the EPA will be compensating people, one wonders what the kooks here are crying about.

Oh, that's right. They've been commanded to shill for the polluters, so they're shilling.

The EPA didn't make the sludge. Blame the people who did. If you're honest, that is. If you're a  dishonest partisan shill, follow orders and keep up your act of deflecting from the real culprits.


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## Ernie S. (Aug 10, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


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^ Dumber


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## Ernie S. (Aug 10, 2015)

Is this a competition? Old Fool WINS!


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## Ernie S. (Aug 10, 2015)

mamooth said:


> Given the EPA will be compensating people, one wonders what the kooks here are crying about.
> 
> Oh, that's right. They've been commanded to shill for the polluters, so they're shilling.
> 
> The EPA didn't make the sludge. Blame the people who did. If you're honest, that is. If you're a  dishonest partisan shill, follow orders and keep up your act of deflecting from the real culprits.


The mining company told them what would happen if they tried to clean this up, but EPA always knows best.


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## MACAULAY (Aug 10, 2015)

I personally wish you worthless federal employees would just stay on your porn sites rather than go out and fuck things up.

How bad is it?

Sounds like this river that federal unionized lazy incompetents have polluted serves as the source of drinking water for people in several states.


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## jknowgood (Aug 10, 2015)

I heard about it this morning, but I guess Obama will hear about it in a couple of hours. When he turns the eleven o clock news on.


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## jwoodie (Aug 10, 2015)

Unless you have worked for the government, you can't imagine how in competent and inefficient it is.  There is no incentive other than to justify more people doing the same thing, since that creates promotional opportunities.  (Staff/supervision ratios are less than 1/2 that in private companies.)


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## sear (Aug 10, 2015)

jw #3
The blame game is fine.
It doesn't filter neurotoxic heavy metals out of the drinking water all our countrymen that depend on that river as their water source depend on.
This is an absolute disaster, a catastrophe.
The only remedy for this is to dredge the entire river bed, and that's a prospect that could cost $Billions.

And there are already EPA superfund cleanup sites that have priority; Constitution Marsh in NYS Hudson River for example.

It's a Catastrophe!


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## Zoom-boing (Aug 10, 2015)

If a corporation had done this people would be demanding their heads on a platter.

Has this even made the news programs? I haven't seen it anywhere but on the net.


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## Clementine (Aug 10, 2015)

They are saying the sediment will settle to the bottom and act like it's no big deal.  The liberal media isn't in a panic like they would be if it were oil.   The toxins are spreading.    Stupid move on their part.   These are the experts that are supposed to ensure that our air and water stay clean.

"ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. – Anger was mounting Monday at the federal Environmental Protection Agency over the massive spill of millions of gallons of toxic sludge from a Colorado gold mine that has already fouled three major waterways and may be three times bigger than originally reported.

An 80-mile length of mustard-colored water -- laden with arsenic, lead, copper, aluminum and cadmium -- is working its way south toward New Mexico and Utah, following Wednesday's accidental release from the Gold King Mine, near Durango, when an EPA cleanup crew destabilized a dam of loose rock lodged in the mine. The crew was supposed to pump out and decontaminate the sludge, but instead released it into tiny Cement Creek. From there, it flowed into the Animas River and made its way into larger tributaries, including the San Juan and Colorado rivers."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/10/navajo-nation-aims-to-sue-epa-over-devastating-mining-spill/


----------



## tyroneweaver (Aug 10, 2015)

the cbs news played this off like the epa wasn't even involved
all of the sudden toxic waste is no big deal.
the epa throws a fit if a guys cow takes a dump in a creek.
I bet nobody is fired over this either


----------



## MACAULAY (Aug 10, 2015)

Zoom-boing said:


> If a corporation had done this people would be demanding their heads on a platter.
> 
> Has this even made the news programs? I haven't seen it anywhere but on the net.


_______________________

You can learn something about it on Fox.

The gist is that the EPA has admitted that they did it.  But, Lois Lerner admitted they targeted conservatives until the Obama-Chicago-Socialists got out some talking points.

The EPA has also admitted that the pollution is of some serious metals and chemicals...but by the time the White House spins it, it will likely be nothing more that orange juice.

WE CAN'T TRUST OUR GOVERNMENT.


----------



## Clementine (Aug 10, 2015)

tyroneweaver said:


> the cbs news played this off like the epa wasn't even involved
> all of the sudden toxic waste is no big deal.
> the epa throws a fit if a guys cow takes a dump in a creek.
> I bet nobody is fired over this either



If the blame could have been placed on the company, they'd be shut down already and paying millions in fines in addition to paying for the clean up.

Sounds like no effort is being made to clean it up and they are saying all that toxic material will just sink to the bottom and eventually become diluted and wash away.    This stuff is worse than oil, yet we don't see the administration staying on top of it and vowing to make those responsible pay.   The EPA is testing drinking water in places that are likely to be affected, but why aren't they doing more?  

We had constant coverage of the oil spill and the company was blasted for not doing more and doing things quicker.

These toxins can cause death and can cause diseases, like cancer, long term.   This is a huge deal, but the media isn't having their usual hissy fit.


----------



## EverCurious (Aug 10, 2015)

I hunted down a bit more info.  The mine was shut down or abandoned some 90 years ago and the EPA's been "caring" for it since some point.  Apparently there's hundreds upon hundreds of these abandoned mines from the 1920's that the EPA tends after. 

I read somewhere that "as long as you don't mess with it, they [the mines] are contained and safe" - it was implied that the EPA fucked with the mine for some reason or another, rumor is that they broke a wall and caused the mass outlet of "sludge." 

One of the reports I read said that arsenic levels were 500 times normal and lead 3500 times normal - the "sludge" is moving down the river.  The EPA had said that it wasn't too much of a danger because the stuffs moving out of areas with the river flow fairly quickly - now I can see that for lead since that's generally an over-time damage thing, but arsenic?  And we don't know what other metals and toxins were in there.  Huge numbers of people are being told not to play in, fish, or drink the water, don't water crops with it, don't let cattle drink it, told to test their water before doing anything with it, etc.  This includes, apparently, at least one American Indian reservation, who is planning to file charges against the EPA.

Either way, the EPA waited to report the "spill" for 24 hours.  I'm not sure we can dam it up and filter it because it's already entered the drinking water areas.  Its sounding to me like there is no choice but to let it go out into the ocean.  Maybe we can do something about it there, but the EPA hasn't even released what's in the sludge that I can find, so who knows if we can fix it at all. 

On the plus side, this is apparently a decently fast moving river, which means that it should get flushed out pretty well, just need to get through making sure all these people, farms, and animals get safe water until it's cleared up.  After that I think we need to figure out exactly what the EPA was doing/trying to do that caused the mine to spring a leak, if indeed they did anything wrong (though they've pretty much said they caused it so I'm presuming they did /something/ they shouldn't have.)

Better hire a shit ton of water trucks...


----------



## jwoodie (Aug 10, 2015)

I think the President should be threatened with criminal prosecution, just like the CEO of BP.


----------



## my2¢ (Aug 10, 2015)

Some quotes from CNN's article:

"This is a real mess," said Max Costa, chair of the department of environmental medicine at New York University School of Medicine. "These levels are shocking."

Cadmium is a particular concern for crops, Costa said, as it's readily absorbed.
"Of all the toxic metals, it goes into plants like crazy," he said.

"Oh my God! Look at the lead!" said Joseph Landolph, a toxicologist at the University of Southern California, pointing to a lead level in the Animas River nearly 12,000 times higher than the acceptable level set by the Environmental Protection Agency.

"This is a major, major problem," said Jonathan Freedman, a toxicologist at the University of Louisville, who until recently worked as an investigator at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, a part of the National Institutes of Health.

The mayor of Durango, Colorado, said experts from the agency were "noncommittal" about the health effects of the contamination during a community meeting Sunday night.
"There was no good discussion of what these levels mean, and that's what's frustrating. I'm a fairly smart guy, and I walked away without having answers," said Dean Brookie. "It wasn't a great confidence builder."

Animas River toxic spill This is a real mess - CNN.com


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## tyroneweaver (Aug 10, 2015)

better call BP in to clean it up. Obviously the our dem driven epa doesn't have a clue


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## pwjohn (Aug 10, 2015)

Reuters) - Some 3 million gallons of toxic wastewater, triple previous estimates, have poured from a defunct Colorado gold mine into local streams since a team of Environmental Protection Agency workers accidentally triggered the spill last week, EPA officials said on Sunday.

The discharge, containing high concentrations of heavy metals such as arsenic, mercury and lead, was continuing to flow at the rate of 500 gallons per minute on Sunday, four days after the spill began at the Gold King Mine, the EPA said.

An unspecified number of residents living downstream of the spill who draw their drinking supplies from their private wells have reported water discoloration, but there has been no immediate evidence of harm to human health, livestock or wildlife, EPA officials told reporters in a telephone conference call.

Wastewater spill from Colorado gold mine triples in volume EPA - Yahoo News


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## Rexx Taylor (Aug 10, 2015)

can we assume that this will not be blamed on any of the 24 dudes running for President?


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## Rexx Taylor (Aug 10, 2015)

Obama has more important things to do right now on Marthas Vinyard. Cant be bothered.


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## DarkFury (Aug 10, 2015)

pwjohn said:


> Reuters) - Some 3 million gallons of toxic wastewater, triple previous estimates, have poured from a defunct Colorado gold mine into local streams since a team of Environmental Protection Agency workers accidentally triggered the spill last week, EPA officials said on Sunday.
> 
> The discharge, containing high concentrations of heavy metals such as arsenic, mercury and lead, was continuing to flow at the rate of 500 gallons per minute on Sunday, four days after the spill began at the Gold King Mine, the EPA said.
> 
> ...


*Thank you Obama. Once again YOUR quality of work blows chunks.*


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## Rexx Taylor (Aug 10, 2015)

Obama will remain silent on this. The new riots are more important.


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## Mr. H. (Aug 10, 2015)

The EPA is comprised of a bunch of haphazard fucktards. Just like the entirety of Obama's administration.


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## HenryBHough (Aug 10, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> The EPA is comprised of a bunch of haphazard fucktards. Just like the entirety of Obama's administration.



Yeah, but they're His *very best* fucktards!


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## Claudette (Aug 11, 2015)

Wonder if the EPA will fine itself or throw its members in jail??

If citizens or some corporation were guilty of this that's just what would happen.

The EPA sucks and has to much power.


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## Iceweasel (Aug 11, 2015)

They'll be more interested in covering their butts than protecting the citizens that employ them.


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## EverCurious (Aug 11, 2015)

For more information from the EPA here:
08 10 2015 Gold King Mine Release Update-August 10

So basically they were "trying to clean up" and instead made a huge mess... I'm leaning toward those saying they should have just left it alone...

(From another post about the incident on the website):
"On August 5, 2015, EPA Region 8, based in Denver, Colorado, was conducting an investigation of the Gold King Mine. The intent of the investigation was to assess the on-going water releases from the mine and to treat mine water and to assess the feasibility of further mine remediation. The plan was to excavate the loose material that had collapsed into the cave entry back to the timbering. During the excavation, the loose material gave way, opening the adit (mine tunnel) and spilling the water stored behind the collapsed material into Cement Creek, a tributary of the Animas River."



I also noticed a snippet on their website saying that once it leaves the river system and enters the ocean it becomes the Coast Guard's problem, hopefully they are formulating a plan for any impact it might have once it outlets >.<


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## Rexx Taylor (Aug 11, 2015)

MSNBC is having a meeting cooking up stories on how to tie this to Bush and the GOP. Like they did when during the Minnesota Bridge Collapse that was caused by Mothman.


----------



## Rexx Taylor (Aug 11, 2015)

MACAULAY said:


> I personally wish you worthless federal employees would just stay on your porn sites rather than go out and fuck things up.
> 
> How bad is it?
> 
> Sounds like this river that federal unionized lazy incompetents have polluted serves as the source of drinking water for people in several states.


I guess the illegal aliens who were looking forward to clean drinking water are in for a big surprise.


----------



## Iceweasel (Aug 11, 2015)

EverCurious said:


> I also noticed a snippet on their website saying that once it leaves the river system and enters the ocean it becomes the Coast Guard's problem, hopefully they are formulating a plan for any impact it might have once it outlets >.<


Unless things have changed drastically since I was in, all the Coast Guard can do is call it in, they do law enforcement, search and rescue, not environmental cleanups.


----------



## Rexx Taylor (Aug 11, 2015)

jknowgood said:


> I heard about it this morning, but I guess Obama will hear about it in a couple of hours. When he turns the eleven o clock news on.


can you imagine if something like this happened in Baltimore, "F'ing up the water system" I wonder who Mosby would of blamed it on.


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## EverCurious (Aug 11, 2015)

Iceweasel said:


> EverCurious said:
> 
> 
> > I also noticed a snippet on their website saying that once it leaves the river system and enters the ocean it becomes the Coast Guard's problem, hopefully they are formulating a plan for any impact it might have once it outlets >.<
> ...



hmmm yea idk I just found the note on the EPA site somewhere.  Found this though:

"Since August 1981, Coast Guard FOSCs have responded to releases and substantial threats of releases of hazardous substances, pollutants or contaminants (HAZMAT) in the coastal zone, the Great Lakes, and inland river ports as designated in the National Contingency Plan (NCP).  The Coast Guard National Strike Force (NSF) provides highly trained responders to support these responses.  The NCP designates the Strike Force as a national resource available to all of the Federal On-Scene Coordinators (FOSCs) conducting removal operations throughout the United States, its territories, and possessions.

Since its establishment, NPFC has served as the fiduciary agent for the portion of the Superfund used by the Coast Guard.  EPA provides the funds to the Coast Guard through Interagency Agreements (IAGs), and the funds are used for the ongoing costs of building and maintaining response capabilities (training, equipment, personnel) and for costs incurred in removal operations following a CERCLA incident.

CERCLA response authority includes response to intentional releases of industrial or military hazardous materials by terrorists, resulting in an overlap of pollution response and homeland security." ~ CERCLA Coast Guard Superfund Use


----------



## Iceweasel (Aug 11, 2015)

Things HAVE changed. When I was active there was no superfund or mediocre fund. We were funded under the Dept. of Transportation and I learned how to "recycle" stuff.


----------



## EverCurious (Aug 11, 2015)

Well on the plus side, it appears that the Coast Guard does indeed know how to deal with the eventual outlet of this disaster, and they have the funding to do it too.

That said, I'd read an EPA report that the "sludge" wasn't harming wildlife or animals, though I can't figure out if it's simply because the waters moving through fast enough, or if it's that the "sludge" isn't really dangerous.  I'm guessing the former though, which means it's prob. going to be a problem that needs to be dealt with in the ocean.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 11, 2015)

The spill caused by the EPA in Colorado has already spread to waterways in a neighboring state. 
The way the left pounces on any kind of threat to the environment why is this incident being ignored?


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## martybegan (Aug 11, 2015)

Don't worry, they will find a way to blame the contractor, the previous mine owner, and of course, any Republican official that tries to slap around the EPA for this giant cluster fuck.


----------



## peach174 (Aug 11, 2015)

Yes there is a thread about it in current events.
Thanks EPA started by MACAULAY yesterday.


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## Liminal (Aug 11, 2015)

Looks like a good day for all the people who hate green energy, think global climate change is a hoax, and who believe God gave them the earth to exploit any way they choose.   
EPA spill turns Animas River in Colorado a toxic orange - CNN.com


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## rightwinger (Aug 11, 2015)

I have seen two or three other threads


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## martybegan (Aug 11, 2015)

Liminal said:


> Looks like a good day for all the people who hate green energy, think global climate change is a hoax, and who believe God gave them the earth to exploit any way they choose.
> EPA spill turns Animas River in Colorado a toxic orange - CNN.com



it's actually terrible news, but the typical black/white 2+2=5 environmental nutjob won't be able to grasp the concept of people who care for the environment, but not the socialism/authoritarianism said nutjobs propose as the solution.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2015)

*Moderation Note --- Yes there are SEVERAL threads now on the river spill.. *
*Let's keep it to one or two please.. *

*Merged 2 threads. Posts appear in time order -- so things should be easy to read.. *

*FlaCalTenn*


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Aug 11, 2015)

rightwinger said:


> I have seen two or three other threads




Me too. 

Its a horror story and just proves what many have been saying for years and years - we need to clean up after ourselves. 

As it is, I would think this will be happening more in the future. 

When I lived in AZ, it was often reported that the Bisbee copper mine often spilled into local water. The town is built the shafts and there were even times when a house would break through to the shaft below.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2015)

tyroneweaver said:


> the cbs news played this off like the epa wasn't even involved
> all of the sudden toxic waste is no big deal.
> the epa throws a fit if a guys cow takes a dump in a creek.
> I bet nobody is fired over this either



This hypocritical media coverage just might be the BIGGER disaster. The wife and I were floored this morning when a CNN  correspondent was showing a jar of bright yellow river water and proclaimed --- "There is no solid evidence of water contamination".. We both couldn't believe our ears. And nary a mention of the EPA..

It's passed the point of Pravda and the stories from my Russian friends about the "news" in the old Soviet Union...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2015)

Liminal said:


> Looks like a good day for all the people who hate green energy, think global climate change is a hoax, and who believe God gave them the earth to exploit any way they choose.
> EPA spill turns Animas River in Colorado a toxic orange - CNN.com



Why  would a massive EPA fuck up be a good day for people who mock green idiocy?


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Aug 11, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The EPA accidentally caused the spill, reports say
> ...



I wonder why the OP purposely left off part of the quote. Here is the entire sentence and I would urge people to read the link as well as other sources. 

_*San Juan County health officials say the Environmental Protection Agency and the state Division of Reclamation, Mining and Safety were investigating another contamination when they “unexpectedly triggered a large release of mine waste water into the upper portions of Cement Creek.” Cement Creek is a tributary of the Animas River.*_

The CAUSE is the pollution. 

If the pollution were not allowed to be there, there would be nothing to spill. 

Ridiculous to fine those who discovered it instead of those who caused it.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 11, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The EPA accidentally caused the spill, reports say
> ...


Deflect & ignore at any cost.


----------



## westwall (Aug 11, 2015)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...









No it's not, you ignorant asshat.  I posted that entire section a couple of posts down as well.  The cause was gross incompetence on the part of the EPA officials involved.  The mine waste was safely partitioned AWAY from the river until your precious government workers fucked up and sent the whole mess into the river.

That waste had been safely stored away for DECADES until some incompetent moron decided he knew better and decided to turn the wrong valve.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Aug 11, 2015)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Funny logic. That's kinda like when righties said that if Michael Brown hadn't attacked the cop to begin with he wouldn't be DEAD.

Course logic only applies to non hacks. And btw the mine was closed in the 1920's or 30's


----------



## longknife (Aug 11, 2015)

jc456 said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > Check out all the environment-haters working their hardest to let the actual polluters off the hook.
> ...



Because they are government bureaucrats!!!


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2015)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Don't know why you think that exonerates. They decided to do this cleanup themselves rather than hire it out. Cleanup crews ARE responsible for containment of the stuff they are handling. There is no excuse for them to not take precautions when handling this crap -- even if it is 100 years old. Your 1st job is to do NOTHING that would spread it. It was there for 100 years before they arrived to "help"....

Same deal would apply to the Federal cleanup at their own nuclear weapons plants. Which is probably the biggest Enviro FUBAR in this country.

(((Apologies to Westwall for missing his similar response)))


----------



## ScienceRocks (Aug 11, 2015)

The people that did this deserve to be fired and imprisoned.


----------



## Iceweasel (Aug 11, 2015)

EverCurious said:


> That said, I'd read an EPA report that the "sludge" wasn't harming wildlife or animals, though I can't figure out if it's simply because the waters moving through fast enough, or if it's that the "sludge" isn't really dangerous.  I'm guessing the former though, which means it's prob. going to be a problem that needs to be dealt with in the ocean.


Or they are simply lying out of their ass.


----------



## westwall (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...








EXACTLY!  If it had been my company handling the cleanup (and we did several of these abandoned mines both here in the States and abroad) we would have built two catchment dams to hold everything JUST IN CASE something like this happened.  When dealing with old works like this you ASSUME they are going to fail so you build backups.


----------



## westwall (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...









No worries, these people are stupid.  You have to beat them over the head several times before they finally "get it".


----------



## Iceweasel (Aug 11, 2015)

Liminal said:


> Looks like a good day for all the people who hate green energy, think global climate change is a hoax, and who believe God gave them the earth to exploit any way they choose.
> EPA spill turns Animas River in Colorado a toxic orange - CNN.com


This poor bastard blames it on the right.


----------



## Iceweasel (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> This hypocritical media coverage just might be the BIGGER disaster. The wife and I were floored this morning when a CNN  correspondent was showing a jar of bright yellow river water and proclaimed --- "There is no solid evidence of water contamination".. We both couldn't believe our ears. And nary a mention of the EPA..


Didn't take a sip either did he?


----------



## Spare_change (Aug 11, 2015)

Gold King Mine spill exposes Obama hypocrisy threatens EPA credibility critics say - Washington Times

The political fallout from last week’s toxic spill at Colorado’s Gold King Mine intensified Monday, with critics saying the incident has exposed clear hypocrisy within the Obama administration while threatening the credibility of the Environmental Protection Agency at a crucial moment.

Rather than express outrage as it has done in the wake of previous environmental disasters, the White House would not comment on the spill and instead directed all questions to the embattled EPA.

The agency, meanwhile, remains under intense fire after its contractors accidentally breached a dam at the mine last week and sent toxic sludge flowing into the Animas River. The contaminated water has spread to New Mexico, Arizona and Utah, and EPA officials were forced to concede that more than 3 million gallons were released into the river — a much higher amount than the agency’s initial estimate of 1 million gallons.


----------



## 1stRambo (Aug 11, 2015)

Yo, the 53% of people working!

"GTP"


----------



## initforme (Aug 11, 2015)

BP got off scott free(very small payout) considering the damage they did.   I say if the EPA is to blame then the EPA pays out to the max.   Environmental disasters are easily avoided so when they happen they should be punished as much as possible.  No excuse for this.


----------



## Care4all (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > "How Much Should We Fine Them per day ???"
> ...


first, was it an accident or was it intentional?  Was it done to save money, and make the agency more profit by dumping this waste?

Was it unintentionally negligent or an accident?  

My answer would be NO, it was not intentional dumping of hazardous waste...it was no where in their plans to do such.  The EPA hired LOCALS to do this job...the Feds did not make this mistake and accidentally opened up the waste cap, the Local Epa made the mistake or a Local company they hired privately made the mistake....at least this is what the article is saying....

Agree that ultimately the EPA is responsible for who they hire to do a job....

but this IS NOT, IN ANY WAY equivalent to a Company intentionally dumping it's toxic waste for mere 'ease of doing it vs disposing of it in the proper way", in to the Penobscot River, poisoning our Lobster and crabs with mercury, killing the Lobster and crab business in the upper Penobscot Bay because the Lobster/crabs are toxic and our State has had to put a ban on fishing in the region, putting many out of work...and their livelihoods changed....  this is what we are going through now up here...and i don't think you can fairly say that intentional dumping of toxic waste is the same as an accident causing the dumping of toxic waste....though the end result, the ruining of a natural or human environment could be equally as damaging....

The EPA is ultimately at fault in Colorado etc, even though it was LOCALS that made the mistake and caused the ACCIDENT....so they in turn should be held accountable for the clean up, coming out of their budget and any financial liabilities for citizens that lose their livelihood due to the accident...all that means is that "we the people" with our taxes, will be responsible.


that's kinda how I view it...


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## Spare_change (Aug 11, 2015)

1stRambo said:


> Yo, the 53% of people working!
> 
> "GTP"



But, who do they pay it to? The EPA, right???

Maybe this is a secret balanced budget plan!!!


----------



## 1stRambo (Aug 11, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> 1stRambo said:
> 
> 
> > Yo, the 53% of people working!
> ...



Yo, the Navajo Tribe and anyone else who wants taxpayer money?

"GTP"


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2015)

Care4all said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...



Show me where "locals" made this mistake...


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2015)

Let's clear up this "locals did it" stuff.. 

Durango blindsided by EPA s accidental toxic spill into Animas River The Colorado Statesman

*EPA Region 8 administrator Shaun McGrath took responsibility for the accident in a Saturday press call, insisting that the agency was to blame and not the independent contractors working alongside agency employees when the orange goo was unleashed into Cement Creek from the Gold King Mine.

He also said he did not know the name of the general contractor hired by the EPA.

“Although I don’t have the name yet, I do want to be clear here: our folks, EPA employees, were on the site and directing the contractor work, and EPA takes responsibility for what happened up there,” McGrath said. “I just want to be clear on that point.”

There were four workers present Wednesday morning when they accidentally released 1 million gallons of wastewater at about 10:40 a.m. Wednesday from the abandoned, inactive mine near Silverton. Even so, the EPA did not contact local, state or regional officials for another day.
*
You don't blame the bulldozer driver --- you blame the site managers and engineers.. 

BTW -- Found this gem... 

Animas River spill How Colorado s Gold Medal waters turned mustard - CSMonitor.com

*She notes that this debacle and the broader problem it highlights could encourage support for federal legislation that protects so-called good Samaritans from liability during efforts to clean up old mining sites. These would include nonprofit groups who might want to help undertake cleanup efforts, but who have been discouraged by the EPA with warnings that, in essence, said, "you didn't break it, but you're going to own it," if something goes wrong during remediation efforts, Kohler says.

*
That's the crux of the outrage right there. A week ago the EPA would have jumped up the ass of ANY contractor who had "an accident" like this.. Today --- maybe not so much...


----------



## Care4all (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


give me a bit, i need to retrace my steps to find the article!


----------



## Care4all (Aug 11, 2015)

oh, you found an article mentioning it?  What I read was from the Christian Science Monitor, I believe?


----------



## Iceweasel (Aug 11, 2015)

initforme said:


> I say if the EPA is to blame then the EPA pays out to the max.   Environmental disasters are easily avoided so when they happen they should be punished as much as possible.  No excuse for this.


You do realize the only money they have is ours?


----------



## jc456 (Aug 11, 2015)

Iceweasel said:


> Liminal said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like a good day for all the people who hate green energy, think global climate change is a hoax, and who believe God gave them the earth to exploit any way they choose.
> ...


well he believes there never should have been mines and man shouldn't exist.  Meaning he shouldn't exist.  Seems that way doesn't it with his thought process?


----------



## jc456 (Aug 11, 2015)

Care4all said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...


it's called negligence.  I know that's a big word, and you most probably have to look up the definition.

It's poor planning, poor listening and an accident indeed.  They were warned and went forward, that's negligent to not listen to those who know what is what and the risks.  

Where was the planning and the risk assessment?  Where was the what if plan? Normal companies do that.


----------



## Care4all (Aug 11, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


As said already, the EPA is at fault and is financially responsible for this accident, which means, we the people, will pay all damages and for the clean up.  They are legally exempt from criminal charges, by law/rules and regs if an accident occurs by them or their contractors... IF in the process of cleaning up 'another man's mess', from what I have read.


----------



## jc456 (Aug 11, 2015)

Care4all said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


Does it also say that can't be fired?


----------



## jc456 (Aug 11, 2015)

1stRambo said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > 1stRambo said:
> ...


that isn't important it's who loses their job?  ALL OF THEM once they clean it up.  No going home and seeing family, nope they stay until it's cleaned up.  It's what they'd mandate.


----------



## Care4all (Aug 11, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...


nope...i think the regional/local EPA admin based in Denver, who took responsibility, could most certainly be fired from their admin position...after a hearing.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2015)

Care4all said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Then perhaps when the EPA goes out into the field and wings it on its own -- they ought to have a separate "Federal Corporation" like the TVA that will assume the liability outright for any negligence. It's "field operations" ought to have the same accountability as anyone else performing such touchy operations.. 

Lord knows the Feds have massive messes of their own that have NEVER been truly cleaned up..


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Let's clear up this "locals did it" stuff..
> 
> Durango blindsided by EPA s accidental toxic spill into Animas River The Colorado Statesman
> 
> ...



Unlike corporations that deny any responsibility the EPA openly came forward and acknowledged their culpability.

Too bad we don't see that happening in the corporate world when they screw up which happens all the time.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 11, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Let's clear up this "locals did it" stuff..
> ...



Too bad we don't get that from the IRS or the HHS or Homeland Security eh???


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



I must be getting old but I am having a really hard time recalling when the IRS or the HHS or Homeland Security turned a river orange!


----------



## westwall (Aug 11, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...










No, what they have done is far worse.  The EPA did indeed take the blame and kudo's to the man for doing so.  I can also gurantee you that his career is over.


----------



## tigerred59 (Aug 11, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Animas River Massive Waste Spill Turns River Orange
> 
> A Massive Waste Spill Turned This River in Colorado Orange
> Maya Rhodan @m_rhodan  Aug. 6, 2015
> ...


No thanks Congress and the GOP candidates, all who want to get rid of EPA


----------



## Spare_change (Aug 11, 2015)

TheOldSchool said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > So is there any point here somewhere, or it is just an excuse for yet another rightwing sulkfest about the EPA?
> ...



Ok --- that's nonsense. 

The mine was closed in 1923! At that time, arsenic was a standard medical treatment.


----------



## Spare_change (Aug 11, 2015)

mamooth said:


> So is there any point here somewhere, or it is just an excuse for yet another rightwing sulkfest about the EPA?



Is there a point??? Nahhh ... who would ever want to point out the utter incompetence of the EPA, the one that consumed $8.2 trillion in 2014? EPA s Budget and Spending Planning Budget and Results US EPA


----------



## Spare_change (Aug 11, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > DrDoomNGloom said:
> ...



The commercial industry contained the problem for 25 years, and then, the EPA decides to get involved and creates the spill. If that isn't incompetence, we need to redefine the word


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> who would ever want to point out the utter incompetence of the EPA, the one that consumed $8.2 trillion in 2014?





Don't you mean a measly $8.2 BILLION?

If the EPA had spent $8.2 TRILLION in 2014 then the current debt would be around $26 trillion.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...


Funny how Exxon and BP were tried in the media and found guilty but the fucking idiots in the government get a pass


----------



## gipper (Aug 12, 2015)

Skull Pilot said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Well we know this is always the case.  The State and their media will always protect the State and attack private enterprise whenever possible.  Sadly many Americans are so brainwashed they can't see the double standard.


----------



## Iceweasel (Aug 12, 2015)

The head of the EPA is a bulldike, It figures!


----------



## jon_berzerk (Aug 12, 2015)

get rid of the epa


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 12, 2015)

By all means lets fine the EPA

and use the money for environmental cleanups


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> get rid of the epa



So when your home value and that of your neighbors is wiped out because a corporation in the neighboring state dumps toxic waste into the water table that kills off all living plants for a hundred miles what are you going to do?


----------



## gipper (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > get rid of the epa
> ...


Sue them.


----------



## jc456 (Aug 12, 2015)

gipper said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...


I didn't get there fast enough.  Nice job.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

gipper said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...



You don't have standing to sue because you don't live in the same state as the corporation so you are SOL as far as suing goes.


----------



## boedicca (Aug 12, 2015)

The EPA Toxic spill is worse than the BP Oil spill in 2010.   It certainly affects far more people's health.

And note an interesting similarity:   Obama is vacationing in Martha's Vineyard, the BP CEO went sailing.   The BP CEO was forced to resign.  We should hold Obama to the same standard.

This situation proves ONCE AGAIN, that the Federal Government is too big to succeed.


----------



## mamooth (Aug 12, 2015)

boedicca said:


> The EPA Toxic spill is worse than the BP Oil spill in 2010. It certainly affect far more people's health.



That's totally delusional. The river is already almost back to its normal badly polluted state.

And the state and locality will still actively fight being declared a superfund site, thus getting the money to start cleaning it up properly. They've been fighting a proper cleanup for decades, as they think it would interfere with tourism. That's what caused the mess.


----------



## boedicca (Aug 12, 2015)

mamooth said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > The EPA Toxic spill is worse than the BP Oil spill in 2010. It certainly affect far more people's health.
> ...




You are a hypocritical apologist.  If this spill had been caused by the private sector, you loons would have formed a Tweet Mob to lynch the CEO by now.


----------



## martybegan (Aug 12, 2015)

mamooth said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > The EPA Toxic spill is worse than the BP Oil spill in 2010. It certainly affect far more people's health.
> ...



The WATER may be, but heavy metals enter the sediment, and unlike petroleum products, these do not degrade via biological action, but usually only oxidize.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

boedicca said:


> The EPA Toxic spill is worse than the BP Oil spill in 2010.








You shouldn't bogart those joints you are smoking! 

The BP spill covered 68,000 square miles of ocean and could be seen from space.


----------



## boedicca (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > The EPA Toxic spill is worse than the BP Oil spill in 2010.
> ...




How many people relied on DRINKING and IRRIGATION water from that area?

But keep apologizing and covering up for Obama's Malfeasance.  The people who live in that area and are not getting answers will remember in 2016.


----------



## mamooth (Aug 12, 2015)

boedicca said:


> You are a hypocritical apologist.



Pointing out how stupid your delusional claim was doesn't make me a hypocrite. You said something dumb, because you were told to say something dumb. Next time, act like a liberal and think for yourself.



> If this spill had been caused by the private sector, you loons would have formed a Tweet Mob to lynch the CEO by now.



Understood. You can't imagine having consistent standards yourself, therefore you can't imagine anyone else having them. You just don't get that we are not like you.


----------



## mamooth (Aug 12, 2015)

martybegan said:


> The WATER may be, but heavy metals enter the sediment, and unlike petroleum products, these do not degrade via biological action, but usually only oxidize.



The same as all the other mine waste that's steadily gone into the river for over a century.

Yet you only started caring now. Go fig.


----------



## martybegan (Aug 12, 2015)

mamooth said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > The WATER may be, but heavy metals enter the sediment, and unlike petroleum products, these do not degrade via biological action, but usually only oxidize.
> ...



The waste now flowing into the river was contained, the incompetence of the EPA led to it becoming un-contained. Where are calls for the head of the Project Manager responsible?


----------



## mamooth (Aug 12, 2015)

Lynch mobs are so ... conservative. Liberals find the facts first.


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## martybegan (Aug 12, 2015)

mamooth said:


> Lynch mobs are so ... conservative. Liberals find the facts first.



Utter bullshit.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

martybegan said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Crude oil also contains heavy metals!


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

boedicca said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



How many thousands of people relied upon the Gulf for their food and jobs?


----------



## martybegan (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > mamooth said:
> ...



Not in the concentrations found in mine wastes. plus, as crude oil is not miscible in water, the metals tend to stay in globs of oil, with only minimal transfer via the oil-water interface. 

Mine waste is usually aqueous based, which means the dissolved and non dissolved metals can move freely in the substrate, and any non-dissolved metals can settle into the sediment far more easily.


----------



## boedicca (Aug 12, 2015)

martybegan said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...




BINGO.

But give DDT credit for being consistent. Human lives matter less than a shrimp to the loons, so of course BP was worse.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

martybegan said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



The oil was biodegraded thus releasing all of the heavy metals into the ocean to become part of the food chain and thus ingested by humans.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 12, 2015)

boedicca said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



So according to you no one ever eats shrimp or fish from the Gulf?


----------



## whitehall (Aug 12, 2015)

You almost gotta laugh if it wasn't so tragic. The mainstream media blamed president Bush for the natural disaster of Katrina but there is little criticism or outrage for the man made disaster caused by the EPA. An EPA spokesperson says everything is under control because the president is being advised and some wells along the way are being monitored. No mention of FEMA or compensation to the victims of EPA negligence.


----------



## Stephanie (Aug 12, 2015)

ran across this just now

snip;
Letter to Editor PREDICTED COLORADO EPA SPILL One Week Before Catastrophe=> So EPA Could Secure Superfund Status

Last Wednesday, a small EPA-supervised work crew inspecting the Gold King mine accidentally knocked a hole in a waste pit, releasing at least three million gallons of acidic liquid laden with toxic heavy metals. (ABC)

This letter to editor, posted below, was published in _The Silverton Standard and The Miner_ local newspaper, authored by a retired geologist, one week before EPA mine spill. The letter detailed verbatim, how EPA officials would foul up the Animas River on purpose in order to secure superfund money. It the Gold King mine was declared a superfund site it would essentially kill future development for the mining industry. The Obama EPA is vehemently opposed to mining and development.

The EPA pushed for nearly 25 years, to apply its Superfund program to the Gold King mine. If a leak occurred the EPA would then receive superfund status. That is exactly what happened.

The EPA today admitted they misjudged the pressure in the gold mine before the spill – just as this editorial predicted.

The letter was included in their print edition on *July 30, 2015.* The spill occurred one week later.

all of it and the letter here:
Letter to Editor PREDICTED COLORADO EPA SPILL One Week Before Catastrophe So EPA Could Secure Superfund Status - The Gateway Pundit


----------



## westwall (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...








Bullcrap.  You clearly have no clue how interstate regulations work.


----------



## westwall (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...







Once again, bullshit.  That's not how it works.


----------



## boedicca (Aug 12, 2015)

whitehall said:


> You almost gotta laugh if it wasn't so tragic. The mainstream media blamed president Bush for the natural disaster of Katrina but there is little criticism or outrage for the man made disaster caused by the EPA. An EPA spokesperson says everything is under control because the president is being advised and some wells along the way are being monitored. No mention of FEMA or compensation to the victims of EPA negligence.




But but but ....because Government Good!


----------



## boedicca (Aug 12, 2015)

Stephanie said:


> ran across this just now
> 
> snip;
> Letter to Editor PREDICTED COLORADO EPA SPILL One Week Before Catastrophe=> So EPA Could Secure Superfund Status
> ...




Wow.  This is so consistent with the Prog Anti-human ideology that is totally plausible.


----------



## gipper (Aug 12, 2015)

Stephanie said:


> ran across this just now
> 
> snip;
> Letter to Editor PREDICTED COLORADO EPA SPILL One Week Before Catastrophe=> So EPA Could Secure Superfund Status
> ...


Very much like a false flag event big gov is famous for.  Anything is possible when it comes to big gov.


----------



## Stephanie (Aug 12, 2015)

boedicca said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > ran across this just now
> ...



after watching how this Obama administration operates for the last seven years. And knowing they are chocked full with Radical Environmentalist . I wouldn't  put anything Past them, even if it would ENDANGER all of us. I believe they would do something like this for the AGENDA they want to put on us.....I've never been so afraid and distrustful of my own government as I am with this bunch of Obama progressives


----------



## Stephanie (Aug 12, 2015)

More from the MOST Transparent administration EVAH. call your damn Representatives in congress. they (EPA) and a few other of these government agencies have become a danger to us

SNIP;
*New Mexico Governor: EPA Refuses to Tell Us What Toxins Are in River- Did Not Tell Us of Spill (VIDEO)*

Jim Hoft Aug 11th, 2015 10:02 am

*New Mexico Governor: EPA Did Not Inform Us of the Toxin Spill – Refuses to Tell Us What Poisons Are in River*



The Obama Environmental Protection Agency mistakenly dumped 3 million gallons of toxic waste water from an abandoned mine into Colorado’s Animas River. The mine is still leaking toxins into the river.

New Mexico Governor Susana Martinez spoke with FOX News today. The Republican governor said the EPA has not been communicating with them and that she found out about it from Indian tribe.

all of it here:
New Mexico Governor EPA Refuses to Tell Us What Toxins Are in River- Did Not Tell Us of Spill VIDEO - The Gateway Pundit


----------



## Spare_change (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > who would ever want to point out the utter incompetence of the EPA, the one that consumed $8.2 trillion in 2014?
> ...


Oh ok ---- what's a zero among friends? 

Ohh!! 3 zeroes, you say? Oops.


----------



## martybegan (Aug 12, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



They were probably released slowly, and in a far more dispersed pattern than you will see deposited in a river. Also, it's not that metals are present that causes an issue, its the concentration, so the small amounts of metals in the oil, spread out over a large area, and released slowly into the aqueous substrate, is not the same as the metals being added to this river via sedimentation and precipitation due to the mine water release.


----------



## westwall (Aug 12, 2015)

martybegan said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...








Exactly.  I bet mammy has no idea that there is uranium and plutonium in seawater as well.  People swim in it all the time and so far no one has died from plutonium poisoning which, if mammy were correct, would be happening all the time given the lethality of plutonium heavy metal poisoning.


----------



## Stephanie (Aug 12, 2015)

SNIP:
awmakers Keep Heat on EPA After Massive Wastewater Spill
Colorado Senator requests oversight hearings; Arizona representative questions expanded EPA water authority






BY: Lachlan Markay 
August 11, 2015 5:30 pm


The Environmental Protection Agency apologized on Tuesday for leaking millions of gallons of wastewater into a Colorado river, but members of Congress from both parties say the agency needs to do more.

Sen. Cory Gardner (R., Colo.) acknowledged EPA’s admission of responsibility in a Tuesday statement but said that the agency has not been sufficiently cooperative with Congress. He called for congressional hearings to investigate the matter.

*“Although the EPA has finally acknowledged the magnitude of the crisis, its ongoing lack of communication and coordination must be rectified,” Gardner said. “The local communities and industries that rely on the river for their livelihoods deserve transparency, accountability, and an explanation that is far-past due.”*

EPA chief Gina McCarthy on Tuesday acknowledged her agency’s role in the spill, which poured an estimated 3 million gallons of toxic waste into the Animas and San Juan rivers.

“It is really a tragic and very unfortunate incident, and EPA is taking responsibility to ensure that that spill is cleaned up,” McCarthy said.

*Gardner said her response was wanting. “It’s outrageous, reckless, and unacceptable that it’s been seven days since the EPA released three million gallons of toxic waste into the Animas River and the federal agency still has few answers.”*

The freshman senator added that he is “requesting congressional oversight hearings to examine the EPA’s insufficient response and to ensure that the EPA is held to the same recovery standards as the private sector.”

In a separate letter sent on Tuesday evening, Gardner, Sen. Michael Bennet (D., Colo.), and Rep. Scott Tipton (R., Colo.) asked McCarthy to quickly develop and share a plan to mitigate environmental damage, and dispatch “a full emergency response team” to the area.

EPA workers triggered the massive wastewater spill while investigating an abandoned gold mine near Silverton, Colorado, last week. Contaminated waters now contain high levels of arsenic, lead, and other heavy metals.

Gardner, Bennett, and Tipton asked McCarthy to visit the area and meet with affected residents in yet another letter on Tuesday.

“Local residents, recreationalists, and business owners need to know that EPA will commit to a full cleanup of the accident and work to ensure the full environmental and economic recovery of the affected area,” they wrote.

Even members of Congress from surrounding states are voicing concern that their constituencies could be affected and asking the EPA pointed questions about its role in triggering the Animas spill.

ALL of it here:
Lawmakers Keep Heat on EPA After Massive Wastewater Spill Washington Free Beacon


----------



## boedicca (Aug 12, 2015)

martybegan said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...




So let me get this straight:  we're supposed to completely destroy our economy in order to affect a potential miniscule change in global temps based on a spurious model, but it's perfectly copacetic for the Government to poison a hundred miles of river and surrounding areas with concentrations of toxic metals...because, well, Government!


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2015)

gipper said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



And you WILL see all that happen guys.. The media is not going out of their way to search out "experts" that will scare the public into believing that 3 American river systems are gonna be polluted for DECADES because of this event. The media would work themselves up into a sweaty frenzy declaring Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, and Mexico disaster sites with heavy metal pollution hazards lasting for 1000s of years.. 

TRUTH IS -- the NATURAL level of heavy metals in those waterways is ALREADY naturally high. And the media would be wrong in both cases. But there is no question, they'd pull a hernia trying to lynch a private party polluter in a case like this...


----------



## bodecea (Aug 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Animas River Massive Waste Spill Turns River Orange
> 
> A Massive Waste Spill Turned This River in Colorado Orange
> Maya Rhodan @m_rhodan  Aug. 6, 2015
> ...


Well, I would hope some people lost their jobs unless this was completely and provably unavoidable.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2015)

rightwinger said:


> By all means lets fine the EPA
> 
> and use the money for environmental cleanups



I want to see them put their field operations under a Federal Corporation. That way folks would be sued and fired for negligience and incompetence. The EPA should be out there cleaning up GOVERNMENT waste sites like Hanford, Savannah River and military installations. Fixing TVA issues. They have their OWN messes since the Feds are one of the largest and most egregious polluters in the nation..


----------



## westwall (Aug 12, 2015)

bodecea said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Animas River Massive Waste Spill Turns River Orange
> ...








This was a totally avoidable situation.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2015)

westwall said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



I think I saw pictures today of the containment ponds they built. There were liners and such involved,, but it looked to me like one good thunderstorm would have taken out the lips of those ponds.. 

I believe you're right.. Time to get your waders on and go work for the locals that will have to deal with the aftermath...


----------



## westwall (Aug 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...







As is typical with government workers, they did the absolute minimum figuring that to do it correctly would take too much time.  My company would be in deep shit had i done this, but they are safe from harm.

Incompetence is always rewarded in the government it seems.


----------



## B. Kidd (Aug 12, 2015)

When it comes to the EPA, humans are not perfect.

When it comes to BP (and the private sector), humans are perfect.

 the EPA, and BLM.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2015)

B. Kidd said:


> When it comes to the EPA, humans are not perfect.
> 
> When it comes to BP (and the private sector), humans are perfect.
> 
> the EPA, and BLM.



If you remember in the BP case,, you had Govt agencies signing off on waivers to allow them to speed up the drilling. And there have been several  coal mine disasters where Fed inspectors had shut them down 10 or 12 times in the recent past and ALWAYS let them resume operation.  Usually right before a LARGE number of miners die.. 

The presence of these minders is NOT a great solution to preventing these unfortunate accidents.


----------



## Jroc (Aug 12, 2015)

Obama's EPA screwing over the native Americans



> (Washington Times) – The EPA is trying to cheat Navajo Indians by getting them to sign away their rights to future claims from the agency’s Gold King Mine disaster, tribal officials charged Wednesday, adding more to the administration’s public relations problems over the spill that threatens critical Southwest waterways.
> 
> *Environmental Protection Agency officials were going door to door asking Navajos, some of whom don’t speak English as their primary language, to sign a form that offers to pay damages incurred so far from the spill, but waiving the right to come back and ask for more if their costs escalate or if they discover bigger problems, Navajo President Russell Begaye told The Washington Times.*
> 
> “It is underhanded. They’re just trying to protect their pocketbook,” Mr. Begaye said in a telephone interview


.


> The claim forms EPA officials were distributing on the Navajo reservation ask locals to estimate a dollar amount they can attribute to property damage, personal injury or wrongful death. The form warns that failing to total up the claim “may cause forfeiture of your rights.”
> 
> *Mr. Begaye said many of the Navajo involved are elderly and speak Navajo as their primary language. As a result, they may have a difficult time understanding the forms and may feel pressed by the EPA to sign quickly.*
> 
> He said the situation is all the more enraging because the EPA has acknowledged that the cleanup will take decades yet is pushing for Navajo to calculate their costs now and sign away their rights for the future.



- See more at: Navajo EPA Trying to Swindle Indians in Mine Spill - Tea Party News


*Lakhota*


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 12, 2015)

JRoc ---> You'll never get Lahkota to read the "Tea Party Times". Not even for news on screwing the Indians (again)..


----------



## Jroc (Aug 12, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> JRoc ---> You'll never get Lahkota to read the "Tea Party Times". Not even for news on screwing the Indians (again)..



Ok I'll try this..



> The EPA is trying to cheat Navajo Indians by getting them to sign away their rights to future claims from the agency’s Gold King Mine disaster, tribal officials charged Wednesday, adding more to the administration’s public relations problems over the spill that threatens critical Southwest waterways.
> 
> *Environmental Protection Agency officials were going door to door asking Navajos, some of whom don’t speak English as their primary language, to sign a form that offers to pay damages incurred so far from the spill, but waiving the right to come back and ask for more if their costs escalate or if they discover bigger problems, Navajo President Russell Begaye told The Washington Times*.



Indians say EPA trying to swindle them in mine spill - Washington Times

*Lakhota*


----------



## jon_berzerk (Aug 13, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > get rid of the epa
> ...



bs you and your helpless mentality sometimes it is really just a laugh you dumb fuckers


----------



## jon_berzerk (Aug 13, 2015)

gipper said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...



exactly 

what a bunch of helpless assholes


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 13, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



You can'


jon_berzerk said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...



So now you are denying the reality that corporations dump toxic wastes into the environment?


----------



## jon_berzerk (Aug 13, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...




what a stupid thing to say


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 13, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



You can't sue when you don't have standing to sue and by eliminating the EPA you eliminated the regulations too.

But don't let reality spoil your imaginary bubble world.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Aug 13, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



Your ignorance is your problem!


----------



## jon_berzerk (Aug 13, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...




you are incredibly stupid 

or completely ignorant 

you pick i dont care which


----------



## jon_berzerk (Aug 13, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



wow how original --LOL


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 13, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



When would you not have standing to sue a corporation for dumping toxic waste next to your home? Pollution standards are already handled for the most part by state and local law and enforcement. The only reason for the Federal enforcement of pollution standards is to "harmonize" these laws and allow agenda driven national politics to pummel states and regions into compliance. In fact, the victims of the EPA are equally likely to be cities, counties and states as they are to be a small farmer with a watering hole that is now a "navigable waterway"..


----------



## mamooth (Aug 13, 2015)

When the only time someone shows concern over pollution is after an EPA accident, it's very obvious how their goal is to attack the EPA, and thus fanatically promote the pollution that the EPA stops.

That is, the conservative pollution-advocacy crowd isn't fooling anyone here. This is just another of their many help-the-polluters stunts.


----------



## boedicca (Aug 13, 2015)

This pretty much sums it up:


----------



## jc456 (Aug 13, 2015)

mamooth said:


> When the only time someone shows concern over pollution is after an EPA accident, it's very obvious how their goal is to attack the EPA, and thus fanatically promote the pollution that the EPA stops.
> 
> That is, the conservative pollution-advocacy crowd isn't fooling anyone here. This is just another of their many help-the-polluters stunts.


just so you have some information with which to use:

link, Credit CNN:

Supreme Court EPA unreasonably interpreted the Clean Air Act - CNNPolitics.com

Excerpt:
"Washington (CNN)In a loss for the Obama administration, the Supreme Court ruled that the *EPA unreasonably* interpreted the Clean Air Act when it decided to set limits on the emissions of toxic pollutants from power plants without first considering the costs on the industry to do so."

The battle has been happening.  You are just misguided as always.


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## gipper (Aug 13, 2015)

mamooth said:


> When the only time someone shows concern over pollution is after an EPA accident, it's very obvious how their goal is to attack the EPA, and thus fanatically promote the pollution that the EPA stops.
> 
> That is, the conservative pollution-advocacy crowd isn't fooling anyone here. This is just another of their many help-the-polluters stunts.


Yeah...only Ds care about ALL pollution.  Those damn Rs and cons they LOVE pollution, except when cause by the government...now that kind of ridiculous propaganda is straight from the DNC.


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## jc456 (Aug 13, 2015)

gipper said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > When the only time someone shows concern over pollution is after an EPA accident, it's very obvious how their goal is to attack the EPA, and thus fanatically promote the pollution that the EPA stops.
> ...


I've always stated in here that this dude/dudette, whatever it calls itself, is a paid poster.  Get's language directly from the liberal party.

What ever the current party line is will be posted in here daily by each of those liberal posters.  the language is most always the same.

It's why there is never an answer to a question in a thread from any of them.  Their schtick is to always comment that they already answered and if we didn't understand it back when they supposedly posted the answer, they won't post it again. Funny stuff daily in here from the left.

But a point of fact is they never answer questions directed their way.


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## longknife (Aug 13, 2015)

Now, now children - stop the namecalling.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 13, 2015)

So the unstable leader of the EPA declared today -- that the river is BACK to pre-spill cleanliness and water standards.

Show's over folks... Nothing to see here ---- keep it moving..
She THINKS we are idiots. She THINKS a spill like that requires NO REMEDIATION..

It's not the water quality honey.. That's not where the HEAVY METAL  pollutants are you mental midget. Who GAVE her that job? And when can  we have it back??


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## flacaltenn (Aug 13, 2015)

longknife said:


> Now, now children - stop the namecalling.




Whoops --- you got me...    Can't call them mental midgets???


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## Ernie S. (Aug 13, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


He does that a lot


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## jc456 (Aug 13, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> So the unstable leader of the EPA declared today -- that the river is BACK to pre-spill cleanliness and water standards.
> 
> Show's over folks... Nothing to see here ---- keep it moving..
> She THINKS we are idiots. She THINKS a spill like that requires NO REMEDIATION..
> ...


obi-one ...." those are not the droids you are looking for"


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## Derideo_Te (Aug 13, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...



You are referring to existing regulations.

The lackwitted poster said that they should get rid of the EPA so I asked how he would handle a hypothetical situation if he was harmed by toxic fallout coming from a neighboring state without the EPA.

Not being a resident he would not be able to sue since he would have no standing in that state and all of the existing federal regulations would have been thrown out with the EPA (otherwise what is the point?) so the dullard would have no recourse as we have today.

But it is readily apparent that none of those that want to eliminate the EPA have the cognitive skills to think through the potential consequences of their folly.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 13, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



You also asked me about dumping a load in the yard next door. But nevermind..

I can sue a company that harms me from ANY STATE.. Whether it's tainted drugs, or a lemon car, or formaldehyde in your carpets.. But here's the deal, if it's out of state --- you are not likely to be the ONLY ONE involved. So if the class can prove the source and harm -- there's not an issue. The suit might be subject to accepting law of the state of the polluter, but I see no reason why you NEED the EPA to sue people.

In fact MANY of the big Enviro fake "advocates" like NRDC, are nothing BUT big buildings full of lawyers ready to sue their way to cleanliness... Go tell them your story.. You'll have trainloads of lawyers at your disposal...


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## Derideo_Te (Aug 13, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> You also asked me about dumping a load in the yard next door.



I did? 

I don't recall doing that.  What was the context? 



flacaltenn said:


> I can sue a company that harms me from ANY STATE..



Those that are advocating getting rid of the EPA are intending to get rid of any liability that would be grounds for you to sue. In essence they want to make it cost you more to sue than you would ever receive in any lawsuit. That means the corporations can pollute at will and never have to worry about who gets hurt.

That doesn't mean you can't sue but you will be facing a system that has thrown out all of those liabilities and the onus will be on you to prove the liability without the benefit of violations of regulations to support your case.


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## mamooth (Aug 13, 2015)

Now, let's look at some more examples of the kookery. This comes from FOX news.






According to the kooks, the EPA should suspend everything they do, solely because of this accident. It doesn't make any bit of sense, but the kooks still want it to happen.

Again, the kooks don't care about the accident. They just want an excuse to attack the EPA, because their masters want the EPA to stop cutting into their profits by preventing the polluting. I just wonder why the kooks think they're fooling anyone.


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## mamooth (Aug 13, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> So the unstable leader of the EPA declared today -- that the river is BACK to pre-spill cleanliness and water standards.
> 
> Show's over folks... Nothing to see here ---- keep it moving..
> She THINKS we are idiots. She THINKS a spill like that requires NO REMEDIATION..



No, that was your policy. At least, before the latest spill it was. You only suddenly started caring when one of the polluters was the EPA.

I guess the silver lining here is you now have pretend to care about pollution, if only for the moment.


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## Stephanie (Aug 13, 2015)

gipper said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > When the only time someone shows concern over pollution is after an EPA accident, it's very obvious how their goal is to attack the EPA, and thus fanatically promote the pollution that the EPA stops.
> ...



don't you love it when they spew that pollution. good grief. only lib/dems care about the air and mother earth.


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## Crick (Aug 13, 2015)

gipper said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > When the only time someone shows concern over pollution is after an EPA accident, it's very obvious how their goal is to attack the EPA, and thus fanatically promote the pollution that the EPA stops.
> ...



Actually opinions like that come from years of experience: Republicans opposing EPA regulation, opposing restrictions on polluters, on forestry, on mining, on industry, giving away our national parks and wilderness areas to exploiters.  George W Bush's FIRST act as President of the United States was to dramatically increase the maximum levels of arsenic allowed from mine effluents.  If you don't think such things aren't obvious to absolutely EVERYONE, you need to get your blinders removed.  Conservatives have fought against every piece of environmental legislation put before them for the last 60 years.


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## gipper (Aug 13, 2015)

Crick said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > mamooth said:
> ...


absurd...

Ever heard of Richard Nixon?


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## Bfgrn (Aug 13, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Animas River Massive Waste Spill Turns River Orange
> 
> A Massive Waste Spill Turned This River in Colorado Orange
> Maya Rhodan @m_rhodan  Aug. 6, 2015
> ...



Hey Einstein, if we fine the government, the fine is paid by WHOM...

Take your time...


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## Ernie S. (Aug 13, 2015)

Crick said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > mamooth said:
> ...


Who started the EPA? 

The EPA, in it's original form was a worth while addition to the bureaucracy.
If it had its regulatory process remained subject to Congressional approval it likely wouldn't have become the farce it is. When flushing little fishies out to sea is more important than growing food and an entire industry is shut down to protect an owl, the agency has become too powerful.
In this case, they were told that tampering with the containment would likely be catastrophic, they figured, as usual, that they knew better.
THEY FUCKED UP!
No one wants polluters to be unregulated at all. That INCLUDES the Environmental Protection Agency.


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## Stephanie (Aug 13, 2015)

Crick said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > mamooth said:
> ...



REALLY, than why do we have the 1000's of regulations passed on us now if the Republicans opposed them? I hope people aren't buying that lie anymore. and they do such a bang up job they just caused a frikken disaster in our rivers and then say. oops. and then it's WE the taxpayers who pays for their Salaries and now will get to pay for their CLEAN up of their oops. what a stinking gig


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 13, 2015)

MACAULAY said:


> I personally wish you worthless federal employees would just stay on your porn sites rather than go out and fuck things up.
> 
> How bad is it?
> 
> Sounds like this river that federal unionized lazy incompetents have polluted serves as the source of drinking water for people in several states.



MOST OF THEM LIBERAL!!!   Yep they is gonna cry loud!


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 13, 2015)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The spill caused by the EPA in Colorado has already spread to waterways in a neighboring state.
> The way the left pounces on any kind of threat to the environment why is this incident being ignored?



Because idiots on the left caused it!


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## Crick (Aug 13, 2015)

What in heavens name makes you think its being ignored?  It's been in the headlines on every news channel and blog since it happened.


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## Stephanie (Aug 13, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Animas River Massive Waste Spill Turns River Orange
> ...



Hey Einstein, for them to clean it up, is going to be paid by WHOM? Magic money trees they have growing?


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## Crick (Aug 13, 2015)

Stephanie said:


> REALLY, than why do we have the 1000's of regulations passed on us now if the Republicans opposed them?



Because the democrats have been in control of Congress and the White House for the majority of that time period.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 13, 2015)

Derideo_Te said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > You also asked me about dumping a load in the yard next door.
> ...



Oh c'mon.. Which is more satisfying? Having a Federal agency fine them and dump the winnings into the Fed toilet, or being part of a class action suit and getting a personal check?

You STILL have to prove harm. Harm is already defined by Federal or State (or existing Federal) OR scientific studies for recognized levels of toxicity or physical safety. Like I said -- HIGHLY unlikely you are the only one harmed, so litigation is shared (likely FREE). 
You're looking for reasons in the wrong places. The mission of the EPA is to harmonize the enviro laws of the various states and then FORCE them to comply. And in doing so -- they end up with a one size fits all prescription that can bankrupt a small western community for a negligible benefit in water quality... Or pounding on a farmer in a marginal biz for a regulation designed to stop Con-Agra from polluting.. 

THat's braindead.. And it punishes way too many innocent people to get to the few ACTUAL problems..


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## flacaltenn (Aug 13, 2015)

mamooth said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > So the unstable leader of the EPA declared today -- that the river is BACK to pre-spill cleanliness and water standards.
> ...




Thats what happens when hypocrites who villainize every accident like this as caused by greedy corporatists and willfully negligent monsters --- suddenly have the same accident.  We get to point out that immense hypocrisy.. It's not that we don't recognize the same harm is done in either case. *We just don't like the holier than thou attitude from the peanut gallery when they sit in judgement of the actual doers.  Folks that keep this country economically healthy and competitive. 
*
The game is never as easy when you're suited up and on the field as it is from your couch..


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## flacaltenn (Aug 13, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Animas River Massive Waste Spill Turns River Orange
> ...




That's correct.. In a fair world -- it would come directly out of the EPA litigation budget and go to the local communities affected. You got a problem with that? MAYBE EPA would then have to fire a few lawyers and a couple of those directly involved and concentrate on what they are best at. Which is buggering the nation with "uniform laws" that apply to both Monsanto and a 200 acre apple farm..


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## jon_berzerk (Aug 13, 2015)

Ernie S. said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...




i picked up on that


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## Jroc (Aug 14, 2015)

mamooth said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > So the unstable leader of the EPA declared today -- that the river is BACK to pre-spill cleanliness and water standards.
> ...


Conservatives want a dirty environment and their kids to get cancer All the bureaucracy at the EPA and the 100s of billions of dollars to feed the bureaucracy doesn't do much to clean the environment and Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant, the sludge they dumped into the river is . Abolish the EPA


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## longknife (Aug 14, 2015)

Ignoring all the political bullshit here - the residents of the town near the mine begged the EPA to leave it alone A YEAR AGO!


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## flacaltenn (Aug 14, 2015)

EPA declares the river is "restoring itself" and water is safe and back to pre-spill toxic levels..

EPA chief says polluted Animas River apos seems to be restoring itself apos - LA Times

So what did we learn here boys and girls and folks of other varying sexual orientations??

*That you can dump 3 million gallons of 100 yr old toxic mine stew into 3 river systems --- and NATURE will "restore itself" within a week.. 
*
Seems to be the BEST argument so far for cutting back on the number of desk jockey bureaucrats and Govt lawyers. Because obviously -- if it's that easy to recover from such a spill, we don't need them.. 

Worst part of this is -- folks who truly CARE about the enviro  -- know that's not true. But at least we need a FEW people that value the enviro over political spin and expediency.. This behavior is just as bad as some of the corporate spin that I've seen.. No diff in my mind...


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## jc456 (Aug 14, 2015)

Crick said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > REALLY, than why do we have the 1000's of regulations passed on us now if the Republicans opposed them?
> ...


so what you're saying is that when a republican lead congress is in power, the people who voted for them are bad people.  Is that what you're saying?  There can't be any other reason?


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 14, 2015)

Why aren't these EPA saboteurs in jail?


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## jc456 (Aug 14, 2015)

Jroc said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


a bit off topic, but to respond to this kind of nonsense post, Liberals fighting for women's rights for abortion go ape shit when a mother chooses not to have her child immunized.   Can you explain why there is but one set of rules?  Again, your post suggests something that you have no idea what it is you preach.  And, my world isn't your world no matter how badly you want my world to be like yours.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 14, 2015)

This short CNN piece illustrates the problem but really minimalizes the impact:
Animas River spill The massive toll by the numbers - CNN.com

There is no way to fully quantify the cost to those affected by the toxic spill--communities who depended on the rivers for their water supply and that includes household use as well as hundreds of businesses and the jobs dependent on those businesses, the Navajo nation and others who depended on the river water for their crops and livestock, the important tourist industry dependent on water that for awhile people were advised to not even touch, let alone drink.  And yes my own city depends on the Animas/San Juan rivers for some of its drinking water.

And yes the EPA now says the headwaters of the spill are now safe to drink, but would you?  Knowing that a few days ago health official were saying not to even touch that water?
EPA officials say Animas River water safe to drink again after toxic spill

But the fact is, the Animas River has been contaminated by mine tailings, etc. for a very long time now and little or nothing has been done to remedy that.  And I think I read that there are at least 500 other old mining operations that currently need clean up and that are likely leaching toxic stuff into running water and/or ground water.

But there will no doubt be compensation for at least some directly impacted by the spill.  And that will cost us all.  At least when a private corporation screws up THEY pay instead of the rest of us.


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## jc456 (Aug 14, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> This short CNN piece illustrates the problem but really minimalizes the impact:
> Animas River spill The massive toll by the numbers - CNN.com
> 
> There is no way to fully quantify the cost to those affected by the toxic spill--communities who depended on the rivers for their water supply and that includes household use as well as hundreds of businesses and the jobs dependent on those businesses, the Navajo nation and others who depended on the river water for their crops and livestock, the important tourist industry dependent on water that for awhile people were advised to not even touch, let alone drink.  And yes my own city depends on the Animas/San Juan rivers for some of its drinking water.
> ...


that isn't true! How can you make such a statement.  The cost of goods goes up to recoup their losses.  Nothing is ever free.  Only liberals believe things are actually free.  They sell that to the blacks everyday. That's why cities like Detroit and Chicago have such wealthy black neighborhoods.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 14, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > This short CNN piece illustrates the problem but really minimalizes the impact:
> ...



I'm sure that makes perfectly good sense to you.  I'm sorry, but I don't see it as relevent to what I said.  If one business has to pay for the damage it does, that does not necessarily translate into all businesses or their customers being affected.  Also the costs paid by a private entity are generally the actual costs with some legal costs and perhaps some punative dollars involved if there is clearly negligence.  Whenever the government is involved, it almost always includes a lot of tax payer dollars being swallowed up to fund the bureaucracy and its lawyers and line the pockets of bureaucrats and others as well as what is actually paid in damages.


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## Stephanie (Aug 14, 2015)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Why aren't these EPA saboteurs in jail?



Hell, they'll probably be getting promoted . Look at dummy woman put in charge of  starting up of that billion dollar OscamCare? problems after problems ad not one person lost their job. They can screw up all they want nobody will say anything. These people have jobs for life I guess we might as well just accept it


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## flacaltenn (Aug 14, 2015)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Why aren't these EPA saboteurs in jail?



Same reason Hillary Clinton doesn't have to post bail to run for Prez... NO ONE EVER gets punished in Govt unless you are a whistle blower..


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## Foxfyre (Aug 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Why aren't these EPA saboteurs in jail?
> ...



  This is sadly often true.  I think because so few have clean hands they are really reluctant to accuse their fellows lest their fellows retaliate in kind.  And those trying to land the cushy civil servant jobs paying big bucks and offering lots of perks are not going to wreck their careers by ratting on their bosses.

Having said that, I really don't believe there was intention or criminal negligence in the case of the Animas River contamination.  I think it was a pure accident.  Due to incompetence perhaps, but an accident.  Should those harmed be compensated?  Yes.  Should those responsible be fired?  Perhaps--if their judgment or abilities aren't up to that kind of work, they should not be doing that kind of work.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 14, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



It was said - I haven't verified -- that the locals and the owners WARNED the EPA not to mess with it. EPA at one time wanted to designate that entire region a SuperFund site, but of course, the locals disagreed. That waste was contained for over 100 years !!! 
There should have been no rush to dispose of it.. Shouldn't have to be done on a finely tuned Gannt Chart timetable with huge management involvement.  

Because the NATURAL runoff from those hills already gives the river a large background reading for the same contaminants. People who live there and understand that this river NATURALLY changes color seasonally and has a certain level of natural "pollution" should have been in charge.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 14, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



I have not seen or heard that from the locals here or those who live in and around that area, and the MSM isn't picking it up, so that could be an urban legend.  Or not.  Who knows?  All sorts of conspiracy theories are beginning to show up on blogs and message boards and social media.   If you do verify it, I \would like to know.

Given the track record of the current administration to blame anything and everybody other than themselves for the messes they make as well as accusing people of making things a bigger deal than they are, I am not really confident that the EPA will be totally up front and honest about this either.


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## jc456 (Aug 15, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


Dude, I explained how. Prices go up. What is hard to understand? They get their money back from consumers/ tax payers.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 15, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...



Dude, I explained how when government pays, we all pay.  But if one private business raises its prices, that does not automatically raise everybody else's prices.  What is hard to understand?


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## jc456 (Aug 15, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


Not everyone pays taxes fool. So still no difference


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## Foxfyre (Aug 15, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...



Again I'm sure that makes perfectly good sense to you.  I, however, wasn't commenting on taxes but the cost to us all re what government does vs what private business does which was what the conversation was about.  But oh well.  Have a nice day.


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## jc456 (Aug 15, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


Same with me. You seem uneducated on how money flows in the country.


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## ScienceRocks (Aug 15, 2015)

Some people need to be fired but to defend what the corporations do all the time is sick. Fucking sick and it says to me that you enjoy sucking up crap water, smog filled air and eating food covered in crap. fact.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 15, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...



Well at least I know the difference between the cost of something and taxes.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 16, 2015)

Stephanie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



The "same" people who will pay for the cleanup (TAXPAYERS) should also be fined?


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## jc456 (Aug 17, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


no, you don't.


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## jc456 (Aug 17, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...


How do you figure that?  All it takes is to have the EPA use funds already allocated for other things to pay for this.  No budget increase!  No reward for being wannabee engineers and shit.  Nope.  No money from the taxpayers.  That money is already there.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 17, 2015)

jc456 said:


> How do you figure that?  All it takes is to have the EPA use funds already allocated for other things to pay for this.  No budget increase!  No reward for being wannabee engineers and shit.  Nope.  No money from the taxpayers.  That money is already there.



And WHERE did that money come from Einstein?


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## jc456 (Aug 17, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > How do you figure that?  All it takes is to have the EPA use funds already allocated for other things to pay for this.  No budget increase!  No reward for being wannabee engineers and shit.  Nope.  No money from the taxpayers.  That money is already there.
> ...


It's already funded fool. Every thing they do is our money. So a project gets cancelled and they pay us back. We get our money back costs us nothing.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 17, 2015)

jc456 said:


> It's already funded fool. Every thing they do is our money. So a project gets cancelled and they pay us back. We get our money back costs us nothing.



Are you a retard, or did you suffer severe head trauma? WHO funded it?

It is taxpayer money however you want to spin it...PERIOD.


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## Ernie S. (Aug 18, 2015)

We already gave EPA X billion dollars to run the agency for fiscal 2015. It's more or less certain that they will spend all of it. What is being suggested here is that they get NO MORE money to cover their costs for the spill.


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## jon_berzerk (Aug 18, 2015)

perhaps it was no accident 

man what a way for the government to push some new water rules 

if anything this stinks like another fast n furious operation


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## Ernie S. (Aug 18, 2015)

If you said that in November of 2008, I would have called you an idiot. Now, I'm not so sure.
I trust barack obama just that much.


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## Stephanie (Aug 18, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



that worthless government agency should be Abolished and stuff like this left up to THE STATES


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## Stephanie (Aug 18, 2015)

This Federal Government has become a MONSTER filled with incompetents

Look what it took them to set a Gawddamn website. they change the laws 20 some times at their whim. They are now COMSUMING us not us in control of them


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Ernie S. said:


> We already gave EPA X billion dollars to run the agency for fiscal 2015. It's more or less certain that they will spend all of it. What is being suggested here is that they get NO MORE money to cover their costs for the spill.


not much brain power there with that dude.


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## jon_berzerk (Aug 18, 2015)

i am not the only one to be saying that 

put nothing past this admin


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## Stephanie (Aug 18, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> i am not the only one to be saying that
> 
> put nothing past this admin



I don't either. I don't trust them as far as I can spit


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

Ernie S. said:


> We already gave EPA X billion dollars to run the agency for fiscal 2015. It's more or less certain that they will spend all of it. What is being suggested here is that they get NO MORE money to cover their costs for the spill.



Exactly.  Instead of using their existing budget to fund this study or that research project, they should be told they'll have to forego all that non essential stuff as well as bonuses or the agency Christmas parties, etc. etc. etc. and redirect the funds to the clean up.  Simple.


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## Ernie S. (Aug 18, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> > We already gave EPA X billion dollars to run the agency for fiscal 2015. It's more or less certain that they will spend all of it. What is being suggested here is that they get NO MORE money to cover their costs for the spill.
> ...


Instead of insulting people you seem to disagree with, how about you make your point clear. It's apparent you disagree with Foxfyre and I, but I have no idea why or what your position is.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Ernie S. said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Ernie S. said:
> ...


It seems you understood what I was stating therefore, I was stating that the other poster, was dude, not you.  And I insult him because he hasn't the skill set to see past his nose.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

Ernie S. said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > Ernie S. said:
> ...



As nearly as I could figure out, he said something to the effect that costs and taxes are the same thing, and if one private business has to pay to clean up a mess it made, that everybody else has to pay too.  And because I didn't agree with that, I am stupid.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...


nope not you either, it was intended for bfgrn.  follow the thread.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Foxfyre said:
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I have and if you intended your comments for another member, why did you quote my posts to make insulting personal comments to me?  Not that I really care.  I generally figure those who can't make a point without personally insulting somebody probably don't know much about what they are talking about anyway.  And in this case the point was that when the government has to clean up a mess it made, we ALL pay for that.  That is not the case so much when a private business has to clean up a mess it made.

But then again, according to you I don't know or understand anything so oh well. . . .


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


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so what part of, it wasn't at you, didn't you understand?  again, follow the thread.  My reply was to ernie who backed my post.  I was merely commenting that the person he replied to had no brain.  That ended up being bfgrn.  NOT YOU.  What the hell, you have no post from me at you, nor any reference therein.  Where show me where I posted anything at you insulting?


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

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So if your Posts 252, 254, and 258 were not directed at me, who were they directed to?  If your intent was not to insult me, you really should quote those you intend to insult to avoid that kind of confusion.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


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looked at those posts and yep, they were in response to you.  Exactly how did I insult you?


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## Agit8r (Aug 18, 2015)

The company that operated the mine should have cleaned up the site completely.  There should have been no tailing pond to tap.  The estate of the mining company owners should be the ones paying.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Agit8r said:


> The company that operated the mine should have cleaned up the site completely.  There should have been no tailing pond to tap.  The estate of the mining company owners should be the ones paying.


they did clean it up.  Had it under control, told the EPA to leave it alone.  And...........


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## Agit8r (Aug 18, 2015)

jc456 said:


> Agit8r said:
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> > The company that operated the mine should have cleaned up the site completely.  There should have been no tailing pond to tap.  The estate of the mining company owners should be the ones paying.
> ...



Is that the Fox News version of the story?  Well, I can't argue with political faith.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Agit8r said:


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nope, that's a fact.  you should use the internet and check it out.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

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Well if you don't know, nothing I will say will likely educate you.  Do have a nice day.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Agit8r said:


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here a link for ya to read:

Why Was The Environmental Protection Agency Messing With A Mine Above Silverton KUNC

Thanks to By Stephanie Paige Ogburn and KUNC Music;

excerpt:

*"Enter The Environmental Protection Agency*

For years, the EPA has wanted to name areas around Silverton as a Superfund site. This brings funding for cleanups. The town, in turn, has resisted, fearing the label would be toxic to tourism. (pun intended.)

Recently, the town and the agency came to a sort of detente. The EPA wouldn’t list the site as Superfund, also called the National Priority List, as long as efforts were made to improve water quality near the mines. The EPA agreed to pay for those efforts, which recently got underway."

Wish you environ wackos would do  your homework before making yourselves look foolish. Then I wouldn't have to go and pull links to prove you were in error.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


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Well I'm sorry that you are uneducated on how the flow of money happens in the country.  Now, if that is insulting not sure what to say, it is a fact based off your posts.  Why not learn where a dollar comes from in private business, perhaps that would help with these sort of analogies.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

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Yes, my college equivalent of a minor in economics and years as a business owner obviously makes me less qualified and much more poorly educated than you to understand these things.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Again, have a nice day.


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## Agit8r (Aug 18, 2015)

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If it was "all cleaned up" as you claim, there would be nothing to release.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

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how do you figure?  Did you even read it?  Do you even know what the issue is in the mines?  Been sitting there for many a year not hurting no one.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

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I guess so, not sure you knew where the money to buy goods came from.  Aliens?


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## jon_berzerk (Aug 18, 2015)

Stephanie said:


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seems info came out before the "accident" that this might happen


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## Stephanie (Aug 18, 2015)

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yep, just how Weird is that. I've lost all faith in the Government especially after being LIED to so much by this administration and Obama won LIE of the year for OscamCare. Gruber coming out saying the American citizens are stupid. which I'm beginning to believe watching some of these take the Governments side over their own fellow country men and women. The Epa and a lot of other worthless agencies should be abolished. think of all the money WE would save. We have STATE Governments that should be in charge of these things.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> Exactly.  Instead of using their existing budget to fund this study or that research project, they should be told they'll have to forego all that non essential stuff as well as bonuses or the agency Christmas parties, etc. etc. etc. and redirect the funds to the clean up.  Simple.



Such typical right wing authoritarian thinking...you folks have one solution for everything...punishment and more punishment...

Every time I read what you folks write it elicits Robert Frost hired man... nothing to look backward to with pride, and nothing to look forward to with hope


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

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they don't care about humans, it's quite obvious daily in here.  They like people to be dumbed down to suppress them and keep them needy.  That is the liberal way of life.  And, they're proud of it!! Saw a stat earlier today Obama care hurt 26% and helped 16% and no one gives two hoots about the 26%.  Nope only the 16%.  True voter obedience in that bunch.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Foxfyre said:
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> > Exactly.  Instead of using their existing budget to fund this study or that research project, they should be told they'll have to forego all that non essential stuff as well as bonuses or the agency Christmas parties, etc. etc. etc. and redirect the funds to the clean up.  Simple.
> ...



It has nothing to do whatsoever with punishment.  It has everything to do with being held accountable and taking responsibility for your own mistakes.

Do you think just  because people are in government they should not have to be held accountable for their mistakes or that there be no consequences for the harm that they do?


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Foxfyre said:
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> > Exactly.  Instead of using their existing budget to fund this study or that research project, they should be told they'll have to forego all that non essential stuff as well as bonuses or the agency Christmas parties, etc. etc. etc. and redirect the funds to the clean up.  Simple.
> ...


_Pride_ did you say _Pride_  so you're proud the EPA went in and devasted human and eco life?  Wow, anything to cover up for the goofs of this country.  Hell, why not just go in and take everyone down you're so bold and full of Pride.

Amazing losing left with dignity for all!!!!!


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

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Did you continue reading?

Somewhat ironically, the Gold King mine was not the object of the cleanup. The agency had planned to plug a mine [.pdf] just below it, the Red and Bonita Mine, with the goal of reducing acid runoff from that mine.

Since mines are interconnected, however, and a plug in one can lead to more water flowing out the other, the agency planned to “remove the blockage and reconstruct the portal at the Gold King Mine in order to best observe possible changes in discharge caused by the installation of Red and Bonita Mine bulkhead.”

That project began July 2015. The Gold King Mine released its toxic load at 10:30 a.m. August 4, 2015.

Peter Butler, who serves as a co-coordinater of the Animas River Stakeholders Group, a roundtable, said the EPA knew there was water sitting at the mine.

“It was known that there was a pool of water back in the mine, and EPA had a plan to remove that water and treat it, you know, slowly. But things didn’t go quite the way they planned and there was a lot more water in there then they thought, and it just kind of burst out of the mine.”

Butler offered cautious support for the EPA’s work at the mine, in light of the spill.

*“I think that they were doing a reasonable job, maybe there were some other steps that could have been taken, that could have prevented it. But I think it was a big surprise for almost everybody,”* said Butler.

*Even without agency mistakes, mines do experience blowouts from time to time* -- although generally not on so large a scale, said Butler.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


> It has nothing to do whatsoever with punishment.  It has everything to do with being held accountable and taking responsibility for your own mistakes.
> 
> Do you think just  because people are in government they should not have to be held accountable for their mistakes or that there be no consequences for the harm that they do?



And your prescription for someone making a mistake...PUNISHMENT


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## Ernie S. (Aug 18, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
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> > Exactly.  Instead of using their existing budget to fund this study or that research project, they should be told they'll have to forego all that non essential stuff as well as bonuses or the agency Christmas parties, etc. etc. etc. and redirect the funds to the clean up.  Simple.
> ...


Right! Bankrupt coal companies, force oil companies to pony up billions to people unaffected by, but close in proximity to an oil spill, but don't punish EPA for a world class fuck up.
Had it been the mining company that spilled 3 million gallons of toxic waste into a river, they'd be on the hook for billions, but you think the assholes behind this should get bonuses and a Christmas holiday party.
You're fucked up, pal.


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## Stephanie (Aug 18, 2015)

this is what I'm talking about folks. Agencies on top of Agencies we  taxpayers are getting HOSED. AND THEY are suppose to be OUR KEEPERS?

snip;
A family in public housing makes $498,000. HUD wants them to stay.







The Washington Post
Lisa Rein16 hrs ago
SHARE
https://twitter.com/share?url=http:...rer=http://a.msn.com/01/en-us/BBlOM1x?ocid=st


A family of four in New York City makes $497,911 a year but pays $1,574 a month to live in public housing in a three-bedroom apartment subsidized by taxpayers.

In Los Angeles, a family of five that’s lived in public housing since 1974 made $204,784 last year but paid $1,091 for a four-bedroom apartment. And a tenant with assets worth $1.6 million — including stocks, real estate and retirement accounts — last year paid $300 for a one-bedroom apartment in public housing in Oxford, Neb.

In a new report, the watchdog for the Department of Housing and Urban Development describes these and more than 25,000 other “over income” families earning more than the maximum income for government-subsidized housing as an “egregious” abuse of the system. While the family in New York with an annual income of almost $500,000 raked in $790,500 in rental income on its real estate holdings in recent years, more than 300,000 families that really qualify for public housing lingered on waiting lists, auditors found.

But HUD has no plans to kick these families out, because its policy doesn’t require over-income tenants to leave, the agency’s inspector general found. In fact, it encourages them to stay in public housing.

all of it here:
A family in public housing makes 498 000. HUD wants them to stay.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

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I did, they were there for one reason and one reason only.  Did you read that part? Had nothing to do with leaky water.  Go back and reread why they were there.  It is in what I posted earlier in the excerpt.


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Foxfyre said:
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it's what happens in the real world when one messes up and causes pain and anguish to others.  Ask BP!


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## jc456 (Aug 18, 2015)

Ernie S. said:


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and that isn't punishment?  Wow, just wow, what the fk is with these k00ks?


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## Stephanie (Aug 18, 2015)

one of 2000 comments with the article on hud.

SNIP:
Hud is a disgrace to the American people as much as our Congress, or for that matter any Government Agency in the USA
FROM:
A family in public housing makes 498 000. HUD wants them to stay.

SO IS the EPA, DOE, BLM, and the Federal Monster just keeps growing and growing until they consume US THE taxpayers


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Foxfyre said:
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> > It has nothing to do whatsoever with punishment.  It has everything to do with being held accountable and taking responsibility for your own mistakes.
> ...



Again it is not punishment to hold people accountable for what they do.  It is not punishment when we expect those responsible to accept the consequences for the bad choices they make and to make it right as much as possible.

What's the alternative?  Don't sue the uninsured drunk driver that totaled your car?  Anybody can make a mistake, right?  He didn't mean to do it.  So instead of holding him accountable we should just suck up the cost ourselves and forget it?

What's the alternative?  Don't require the contractor who drops the tree on your house to pay for the damages?  Anybody can make a mistake, right?  He sure didn't intend for that to happen.  So if the mistake costs you a bundle or hurts you, we shouldn't require the person who did it to accept responsibility and be accountable for that?

What makes those in government such a protected class that they should not be held to the same standard?  Anybody can make a mistake, right?  Because it is government that made a huge expensive mess that hurt hundreds/thousands of people, nobody in government should be held accountable and all the rest of us should pony up extra taxes or except more and more debt to clean it up?

What kind of logic is that?


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


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Your post prescribed punishment...and now you are trying to redefine it...it is what it is no matter how you try to spin it.

Go back and READ what you wrote...my GOD!


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

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I don't have to go back to re-read it.  I know exactly what I said.  And I see that as holding the people responsible and accountable for a mess they caused rather than forcing the taxpayer to be held responsible and accountable for it.  Nothing I have posted since changes that in any way.   If you think that is 'punishment' I'm sorry.  I sure don't have any clue what you would consider holding somebody responsible and accountable would be then.

Do you believe people in government should not be held responsible and accountable when they make a mistake that hurts people?


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

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And what were they there for Einstein?


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


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Responsible...they clean it up

Punishment...
Exactly. Instead of using their existing budget to fund this study or that research project, they should be told they'll have to forego all that non essential stuff as well as bonuses or the agency Christmas parties, etc. etc. etc. and redirect the funds to the clean up. Simple.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 18, 2015)

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Oh, so if they have to use their existing budget that is punishment.  But if they can force the rest of us to pay for it however much THEY decide that will be, they are taking responsibility.  Got it.  Do have a nice day.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

Foxfyre said:


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No, you don't "Got it"...

You want to prescribe 'punishment' for everyone..."this study or that research project" has to be taken away...studies or research that could save humans fish or fowl from harm...

You just can't help yourself...punish, punish, punish...etc. etc. etc.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2015)

WHY the EPA was there in the first place...

Exactly NONE of this was caused by the EPA...

A series of abandoned mines in the Upper Animas Basin has been spewing toxic metals into the local water system for more than 20 years. Scientists say it’s the largest untreated mine drainage in the state, and problematic concentrations of zinc, copper, cadmium, iron, lead, manganese and aluminum are choking off the Upper Animas River’s ecosystem.

Between 2005 and 2010, three out of four of the fish species that lived in the Upper Animas beneath Silverton died. According to studies by the U.S. Geological Survey, the volume of insects and the number of bug species have plummeted. And since 2006, USGS scientists have found that the water flowing under Bakers Bridge – then downstream, into Durango – carries concentrations of zinc that are toxic to animal life.

The Durango Herald 04 22 2014 Silverton flirting with Superfund


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## jc456 (Aug 19, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> WHY the EPA was there in the first place...
> 
> Exactly NONE of this was caused by the EPA...
> 
> ...


Here is why they were there.  



jc456 said:


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