# The Christian Tithe ripoff.



## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.

So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 24, 2016)

In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy. 

10 percent of your total income is a Christian thing.


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## Agit8r (Jul 24, 2016)

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-- Thomas Paine; from 'Age of Reason'

Just as true now.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> 
> 10 percent of your total income is a Christian thing.




Well yes. In fact God commanded Israel to give 23 percent of their income yearly , not 10 percent; but it entirely consisted of LAND not money!  Christianity turned that into money skillfully over the years. Just like their money greedy ministers skillfully preach and teach tithing money with no biblical support for it, but they twist the scriptures to make it seem so. They actually , skillfully , made it a biblical requirement; an obligation; a burden on the people. None of them can give you any New Testament support for tithing.


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## MarathonMike (Jul 24, 2016)

My parents are a perfect example of the damage tithing does to low income people. My Dad was a Staff Sergeant and could ill afford giving away 10% of his income yet he did. He called it "Seed Money". They were constantly in debt and tithing was a major reason why.


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## The Irish Ram (Jul 24, 2016)

Priests didn't farm.  They relied on tithes and first fruits and fish and herbs that were brought to the Temple. The premise is that the more time the Priests had to fend for themselves the less time they had to spend in prayer on the behalf of the tither.  Let's ask Christ what He thinks about it:



> _You should_ have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.


The latter He refers to is Love.  The former He refers to is tithing.

He said:
You tithe your mint and rue, *as well you should..*..an ignore the weightier issue of love. 
That was to the Jewish Pharisees. 
The Gentiles are not under Jewish Law. 

But there is something unique about tithing.
It comes with a remarkable promise.  And it works.  It is the only time that I know of where our Father says, "Test me on this."
Here are the rules. 1/10th  of income OFF OF THE TOP< not from what might be left over after you pay bills or buy groceries. 1/10th off the top, set it aside in an envelope, and give it to a church quickly before you are tempted to use some for gas money.  And,  It is not charity to be given to an organization. 
That part is God's.
IF you increase that amount by 25% or more, God promises to return it all back to you X 7.
You made $100.00.  $10.00 goes to God.  Add an additional $2.50 to the $10.00 and get it all back multiplied by 7. You get $87.50 back. Except He doesn't stop there.  You also get land you didn't sow, houses you didn't build, property you didn't pay for, oil under the property, cups that fill to capacity and then run over..

If you believe in your heart that you are not required to tithe, it is not held against you if you do not.
If you believe in your heart that you should be tithing to God and do not, it is considered by God as theft.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> My parents are a perfect example of the damage tithing does to low income people. My Dad was a Staff Sergeant and could ill afford giving away 10% of his income yet he did. He called it "Seed Money". They were constantly in debt and tithing was a major reason why.




Well yes , that " Seed Money" is the hook; the ministers try to make it  mean " A biblical investment", when really its a worldly lottery dressed up like a blessing. You might hit or you might not. Its a titanic seduction that Christian ministers are getting rich off of. Milking its members like cows.

The church in its final state of apostasy will be swept by a carnal spirit of prosperity ,  rightly called " The Prosperity ministries!" This is revealed in Revelations 3:17," Because you say I am rich and increased with goods , and have need of nothing, ( again , that's the hook , the temptation),  and you knowest not, ( meaning the members are completely blind to this condition), that you  are wretched , miserable , poor , BLIND  and naked!" And that is Jesus talking. HIS church is in pitiful shape , all wrapped up in the spirit of greed and gain. Ministers leading them like pied pipers.


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## MarathonMike (Jul 24, 2016)

I am ignorant of the details of tithing and I appreciate the education. It helps me understand a little better what motivated my Dad.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

Check out this website :

The Tithing Hoax


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## the_human_being (Jul 24, 2016)

Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.



Without any merit to you, because this thread is not for you.

There are too many pastors to count that teach the curse of the tithe and handicap its members , this one included;

Consequences When Christians DO NOT Pay Their Tithes? God Will Block Their Blessings!!

This guy even charges 5% if his members are late paying their tithes.  The force here is "Perceived biblical manipulation",  where the people are made to think its God's will for them to pay. And that he will curse them if they don't.


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## the_human_being (Jul 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> the_human_being said:
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> > Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.
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The world is full of fools. They will always be around. The casinos are full of them on any given day of the week. Why not preach against playing the slot machines?


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## MarathonMike (Jul 24, 2016)

I disagree, it's more than just being a fool and parting with your money IMO. Faith is such an integral part of many peoples lives, the idea that a Faith leader would use that to coerce payment out of them lest their eternal souls be damned or whatever.....that is particularly despicable. Yes I definitely have a personal bias here, but I think I would still see it the same way.


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## the_human_being (Jul 24, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> I disagree, it's more than just being a fool and parting with your money IMO. Faith is such an integral part of many peoples lives, the idea that a Faith leader would use that to coerce payment out of them lest their eternal souls be damned or whatever.....that is particularly despicable. Yes I definitely have a personal bias here, but I think I would still see it the same way.



It's done over and over a thousand times each day. Fools and their money are parted. Talked to an insurance salesman or a car salesman lately. Had your car worked on at a garage?  You have to watch out for yourself today or the wolves will shear you.


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## guno (Jul 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.


fleecing of their low iq flock

*Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit*

*Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit*


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

guno said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...




Oh I enjoyed reading that ; so much truth in that humor.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> MarathonMike said:
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> > I disagree, it's more than just being a fool and parting with your money IMO. Faith is such an integral part of many peoples lives, the idea that a Faith leader would use that to coerce payment out of them lest their eternal souls be damned or whatever.....that is particularly despicable. Yes I definitely have a personal bias here, but I think I would still see it the same way.
> ...




The worst wolves are those who look like sheep.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

"If a believer wishes to tithe  out of a personal conviction , that is fine .  Tithing becomes a problem when it is represented as God's command , binding upon every believer." ( Pagan Christianity , pg.178,Frank Viola.) When you have been thrown into deeper poverty because you felt obligated to give beyond your means , that is NOT the command of God! That is a heavy burden of oppression. Your liberty has become oppression. Your religion has become infected.


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## the_human_being (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> "If a believer wishes to tithe  out of a personal conviction , that is fine .  Tithing becomes a problem when it is represented as God's command , binding upon every believer." ( Pagan Christianity , pg.178,Frank Viola.) When you have been thrown into deeper poverty because you felt obligated to give beyond your means , that is NOT the command of God! That is a heavy burden of oppression. Your liberty has become oppression. Your religion has become infected.



Sounds to me like you are not adult enough yet to take care of yourself.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > "If a believer wishes to tithe  out of a personal conviction , that is fine .  Tithing becomes a problem when it is represented as God's command , binding upon every believer." ( Pagan Christianity , pg.178,Frank Viola.) When you have been thrown into deeper poverty because you felt obligated to give beyond your means , that is NOT the command of God! That is a heavy burden of oppression. Your liberty has become oppression. Your religion has become infected.
> ...




I have  no need to insult your personage, my post's hold a strength enough to stand on their own ;  I have no interest in insulting your personage , but I understand your need to insult mine ; its the Christian way.


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## the_human_being (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Don't worry about it. You can't insult me. I'm an adult.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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Its not my way to insult you , I only go after your religion. My conversation is strong enough to be effective without the need to insult. I consider personally insulting others as a weakness. A common Christian habit.


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## the_human_being (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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And I don't consider anything you say as being adult enough to even consider. You haven't even attacked my religion because I have never even been inside a church that imposes tithes on the membership. In all the churches I have ever attended, and there have been several, tithing was voluntary. No one drove splinters underneath one's finger nails tht refused to tithe.


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## rightwinger (Jul 25, 2016)

Buy you way into heaven


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## kjw47 (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.




Tithing was the Mosaic law-- Christians are not under that law.
Jesus taught a parable as well to that effect--He said--The Pharisees all gave their tithes, a little old woman had 2 small coins and gave them both out of her heart. Jesus said--what she gave had more value than all the tithes combined--- God and his son want from ones heart, not written law on paper-the new covenant= LOVE.
As well The bible teaches that one received the word of God for free and in return it should be given free as well.
Run from the teachers of darkness who demand a tithe. And get paid to give what God said to give free.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 25, 2016)

You know, there IS a way to ensure good karma and provide a bit of  "seed money" to the world.

That would be when you see someone on the street who looks like they could use a decent meal or two and is homeless, give 'em a couple of bucks and tell them to have a nice day.

I've noticed that when I send out good energy to another human being that actually helps someone directly, good things tend to happen to me afterwards. 

Nothing ever happened like that after I'd given a bunch of money to the church, but it does when I help another human being. 

Give a couple of bucks to homeless people.  Not only will it help them out, but it will get you good karma in your spiritual bank.

And.....................it's cheaper than tithing.


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## LittleNipper (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.


The average American family pays out 38 percent of its income, each year in federal, state, and local taxes ---- 10% is a bargain and God does a whole lot more than the government.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
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God is not a banker, Christian ministers are.


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## LittleNipper (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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No one is suggesting that ministers are entitled to live high on the hog, as it were. However, doctors do not work for nothing. Politicians do not work for nothing. Teachers do not work or nothing. And ditch diggers do not work for nothing --- and you likely receive a wage.  Ministers do a lot of volunteer work and are available 24 ---7. This is more than I can say for most people.


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## kjw47 (Jul 25, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, there IS a way to ensure good karma and provide a bit of  "seed money" to the world.
> 
> That would be when you see someone on the street who looks like they could use a decent meal or two and is homeless, give 'em a couple of bucks and tell them to have a nice day.
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> ...




When the rich man went to Jesus and asked him--How can I enter Gods kingdom, I keep all the commandments. Jesus said--sell all you have and give it to your poor brothers.
He didn't mean sell every single thing( because the rich man had to live to) but he meant most of it--out of love of the heart. The rich man could not do it.
Giving direct  to a needy one is far better than giving to a charity who gives 15% to the needy and 85% in their paychecks and the bills. Charities are a farse. In the last 2 calamaties--New Orleans hurricane--Haiti --billions ended up stolen.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


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The Christian Tithe is a fraud ;  they will fight for that fraud. Because its their way.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

Jesus Christ did not teach tithing to his disciples or to anyone;  the first century Christians did not observe it ; two facts that tithing churches will not teach.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

Christians control the religious money , and they think they control the honey;  the salvation of humanity. They have a choke hold on religion and they will not let go. They want to drown unbelievers in their hell, but take their money first.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

The Christian tithe rip off ,  is really a bible rip off ;  its stealing a biblical standard for collecting food , and completely changing it into a money collection plate -- and the power to seduce its members into not seeing that change.


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## the_human_being (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christians control the religious money , and they think they control the honey;  the salvation of humanity. They have a choke hold on religion and they will not let go. They want to drown unbelievers in their hell, but take their money first.



What is apparent is that you have chosen a subject in which you have little knowledge. It would benefit your own knowledge were you to try to get a grip on just exactly what tithes are used for in most all churches. The pastor of most churches draw a set salary. Most all churches are mortgaged to the hilt. Most all churches have electric bills, water bills, maintenance bills, lawn care bills, and support missionaries as well as community outreach programs.


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## sizzler (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.



  Though all religions have always sought money, or its equivalent,  it is actually an evil producing machine.  Because there is only one thing that can overcome human mortality.  At least in the minds of its followers.  And that is lies.  Which are evil.  For the most part.  And definitely in the case of religion.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Christians control the religious money , and they think they control the honey;  the salvation of humanity. They have a choke hold on religion and they will not let go. They want to drown unbelievers in their hell, but take their money first.
> ...




Know your history.

Cyprian of Carthage was the first Christian writer to mention the misguided practice  of financially supporting the clergy. He argued that just as the Levites were supported by the tithe , so should the Christian clergy;  that is unbiblical , the Levitical system has been abolished,  all believers are priest ,  so if a priest demands a tithe, all believers should tithe to one another. But Christians listen to their clergy more than they do their bible. Its a habit that will never be broken in this life.


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## the_human_being (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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More stupidity from you. Churches have expenses. These expenses and outreach programs have to be met. Many churches are closing because they cannot meet their expenses. Yes, a pastor's salary does usually come out of the tithes and offerings but so does the mortgage payment, the electric bill, and other expenses and programs. It has to come from somewhere, stupid.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

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I hold no need to call you names and insult you , those are Christian ways. By calling me stupid , you are showing the way of a Christian.

What's it feel like Christian , talking to someone who can see right through you?


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## the_human_being (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Feels great to tell the truth. Try it sometimes.  At least bone up on your subject.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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What's it feel like , having your ways exposed? Having your church exposed?


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## the_human_being (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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The only thing you have exposed is your total stupidity on the subject.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

In the old testament the tithe was food, Christians changed that to a voluntary offering   before the eight century ,  by the end of the tenth century it had developed into a legal requirement to fund the state church. That was demanded by  the clergy and was enforced by the secular authorities. Today it  is no longer a legal requirement, but members are made to feel like they are sinning if they don't tithe. In some churches , you are banned from the ministry if you don't tithe.


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## sizzler (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> In the old testament the tithe was food, Christians changed that to a voluntary offering   before the eight century ,  by the end of the tenth century it had developed into a legal requirement to fund the state church. That was demanded by  the clergy and was enforced by the secular authorities. Today it  is no longer a legal requirement, but members are made to feel like they are sinning if they don't tithe. In some churches , you are banned from the ministry if you don't tithe.



  I remember a story from the old testament.  In it, god supposedly ordered all the Israelites to gather in one place.  To keep disease from spreading in that gathering, they had to make an offering to god.  Both rich and poor had to pay two shekels.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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How about showing the people reading ,  any new testament  scriptures that show giving the clergy a salary.

This I got to see.


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## the_human_being (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Most folks possess common sense. Too bad you don't.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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Translation; you can't show any  New Testament scriptures that teach supporting the clergy with a salary, because " There are none!" But see Christian , I already knew you could not show what is not there in the bible;  its just all in your mind. Its what you been taught all your life.

Its just wrong ;  but you are not able to see this.


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## the_human_being (Jul 26, 2016)

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You can't get everything from a book. One must also have a little common sense. Does the Bible say anything about my contributing to your Obamacare insurance policy?  Congratulations. You are without doubt one of the most ignorant people I have ever conversed with. You are a total loser.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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There is also no doubt I will never insult your personage, unlike you , I don't need to. Why insult your personage?  For what? See when you insult my personage , your frustration is leaking out ; your ways are leaking out ;  you have a need to attack people's personage , and in your mind , you think that is normal , that its alright to do. So you slander people , thinking  fine to do. This is the same spirit that causes people to slander the bible ,   and create biblical principles that really do not exist.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 26, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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Politics and religion don't mix ya moron.  Spirituality should never be mixed in with politics as a way to rule a country.  If you do that, you have a theocracy, which is what most Muslim countries have.


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

Heaven is a theocracy;

and I see no reason to call anyone a moron; why mix conversations  with such needless vernacular?


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


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Who put politics in here?  Are you daft?


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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I see your need to call me names is magnifying ;the habit grows stronger within you. The longer you do it to me , the more I will keep exposing it. Not that you care, I already know you don't care how much you insult others ; its a part of your walk.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.


There is a lot of hate and fear in those who oppose Christ.  They will leap on any facet of doctrine in order to avoid the central truth of the Gospel.  The Church should not allow such distractions to succeed.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


> the_human_being said:
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> > Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.
> ...




There is much more hate and fear in the Christian message of eternal hell punishing;  nothing else even rivals this insane message  of hurting humans forever. And a religion is putting it out there. The Christian church will not allow this evil message to remain silent , they are trumpeting it all around the world.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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God provided a way for man to avoid the punishment he brings on himself.  That's the good news of the Gospel.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jul 27, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> 
> 10 percent of your total income is a Christian thing.



38% is a Democrat thing


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

CrusaderFrank said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> ...


They demand more than God did from His people.


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## irosie91 (Jul 27, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> 
> 10 percent of your total income is a Christian thing.



Mickiel is right-----the original biblical tithing relates to the agrarian society which Israel/Judea was-----the donation of
the products of agriculture as a kind of tax--------DA FIGs AND DA BARLEY.     Not a very precise thing------I have never heard  (or read)  of any cases of    "FAILURE TO REPORT ONES FIG PRODUCTION" as a Sanhedrin issue.   Several items of agriculture were immune from the tithe-----like  CUMIN SEEDS and PEPPER CORNS --------it was largely what we call the CASH CROPS


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Well, the fact that you realize I hold no respect at all for you yet you continue your misinformation exposing your own ignorance, goes to prove my point concerning your lack of intelligence.


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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It's just like your lie about forcing tithes on everyone. No one ties you down and forces you to listen to the Christians. Apparently, you have no self-control over your own self.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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Conviction of sin is very real, and sometimes it causes people to lash out in a vain attempt to make it stop.


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


> the_human_being said:
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> > Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.
> ...



The Church can do nothing except provide an avenue of instruction. It is the work of the Holy Spirit vs. the work of Satan. Sin is fun. Sin is fulfilling our own natural lusts. It is far more fun to live in total abandon for one's own self than to live for Christ. The Church is not a part of this world.


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

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Yes. Rather than attempt to change their own ways, they lash out in hatred toward those who are trying to live their lives in a Godly manner.


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

Read it and curse God, the Bible, and Christians as you wish:

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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The Christian church is a part of this world , they are dangerous because " They  think they are not." They are a church of God in rebellion , completely blind to their true condition ,  and so full of self righteous pride that they are deceived to the bone and cannot see it.


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

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I said curse away. The coals you are heaping are upon your own head - not mine.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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You have no power to curse me Christian  , your threats are meaningless to me , I know the bible. You can only threaten ignorant people.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Are you saying this as one who is inside the Church and thus knows how it ought to function, or one who is outside the Church and thus has no idea?


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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You would be completely blind to  whoever says anything about the church ;  your not supposed to see the truth about yourselves.

In example , here is what Jesus said about the church , HIS church; Rev. 2:4 ,  he has something against them  ,  Rev. 2:15 they were holding to doctrines that he Hates! , Rev. 2:20 he had more things against his church , Rev. 3:17 Jesus describes his church in the latter days as wretched , miserable , poor , blind  and naked! This is Jesus describing HIS church , but his church cannot see this , because they are blind! Totally deceived.

In Rev. 3:20 Jesus stands at their door and knocks ; he is NOT IN the church , he is on the outside ;  so this is an outside view.


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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I don't curse you. You have already been accursed.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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No  , no Christian , lets get your condemnation of me straight ; you can't condemn me for unbelief because I believe in God and Christ with all my heart ;  now , just so the people can see how really messed up Christianity is ;  you see I am a believer , will you now lift your pronouncement of condemnation on me?


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## the_human_being (Jul 27, 2016)

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I'm not the one who condemns you. Take the matter up with He who condemns you.


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## anotherlife (Jul 27, 2016)

I have once done an experiment.  It was about going to church but not paying them.  After the third time, their looks alone were almost enough to kill me.  So much for American churches.  They are cults.  Hehehe.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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Spoken like a true Christian ,hold that condemnation  over me with all your heart. Stuff as many people in your hell as you think you legally can. Keep them in that hell and don't let them out.

You know you want  your hell , I can smell your condemnation of me. I can see you licking your righteous chops.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> I have once done an experiment.  It was about going to church but not paying them.  After the third time, their looks alone were almost enough to kill me.  So much for American churches.  They are cults.  Hehehe.




Oh yes , intimidation is a sure church tactic to get your money. They will pass that money plate three or four times during a service.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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He is in the heart of everyone who follows Him and He recognizes no denominational boundary.  This is what I meant by you coming at this as one who may have no idea how this is supposed to work.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
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> > I have once done an experiment.  It was about going to church but not paying them.  After the third time, their looks alone were almost enough to kill me.  So much for American churches.  They are cults.  Hehehe.
> ...


Most giving in our church is done online and during the service the pastor explicitly states that visitors are not to feel pressured to give.  I don't know what churches you guys attended, but they weren't the ones I have been in.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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> 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
> 
> Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
> 
> 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]?



The point being that belief in God does not make you a Christian.  Speaking about the Bride of Christ the way you have leads one to think that perhaps you are not that of which you speak.  Perhaps you need to better explain what you mean by the Church, because there are man made organizations that call themselves "Church", then there is the true Church that crosses all man made boundaries.


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## anotherlife (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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This stuff I've never heard of.  Have you just made it up?  I have been to the early party of a new church, as an example.  Most of it was about money.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

anotherlife said:


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I'm being very serious.  Our church does not expect visitors to give anything, and members mostly give online.  At the end of the service, we pass popcorn buckets (throwback to our start in a movie theater) to pick up visitor information cards and any giving that anyone might want to do.  No pressure, no show, no pomp and circumstance.  It works very well.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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Oh how sweet , popcorn buckets , just the thing to collect a lot of money, a bucket. You don't " Expect" me to give , but you pass me a bucket when its time  to choose to give. Subtle suggestion?

You   see how these Christians are defending their churches ,no matter what the churches are doing ; because " Faith in your church is equal to faith in your God." The church or pastor can do no wrong.

Their using popcorn buckets to collect money , and this church member is thinking about going to the movies , while their pastor goes to  the bank .


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.  We collect visitor information cards and make it very clear no one is pressured to give.  If they want to give us some information about themselves and if they want us to contact them, they drop the card in the bucket.  I'll issue you a challenge.  Come to our service and see for yourself.  If you won't, don't claim to have information you don't.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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That visitor information card is   the fore runner  of becoming a business card ;  you " Partner with the church" ; its a three way relationship ; its you ,  the church and your bank account.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

An excellent study on  Tithing ;

CULTWATCH |   Tithing and Enforced Giving


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Not in our church.  Like I said, the door is open for you to gain actual knowledge instead of relying on what you "know" from other churches and hate sites.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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These are not hate sites ,  they are fact finding sites;

The pastors swim in millions, while their congregations are incredibly poor – Financial Juneteenth


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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Ah, now we get to the crux of the problem.  There are indeed pastors who take advantage of their congregations and live lavish lifestyles while their congregations suffer.  They are properly described as wolves in sheep's clothing and will have to justify their actions to Christ.  There are, however, many many more who do not.  The Churches I have been a part of usually publish the pastor's salary in the annual budget so people know how much he makes.  Heck, the church I grew up in didn't even pay pastors a salary, just a stipend to cover some expenses.  They were expected to support themselves.  But, like I said, come check out our congregation for REAL first hand information, not stuff you heard about or want to believe but haven't seen.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

This is so pitiful ; the church does not want your money ,  but its passing around popcorn buckets instead of collection plates. And it has its members taking up for that like trained pets.


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## Mudda (Jul 27, 2016)

When they pass me the collection plate, I say thank you Lord, and take a few bucks.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> This is so pitiful ; the church does not want your money ,  but its passing around popcorn buckets instead of collection plates. And it has its members taking up for that like trained pets.


I see where you're headed with this.  I invited you to get actual, first hand information.  Instead of doing so, you intend to continue spouting misinformation as if it were fact.  That's really sad.  It's no more realistic than insisting that law abiding concealed carry permit holders are dangerous wannabe gun fighters, then refusing to even see what checks they go through to demonstrate that they are authorized to carry a weapon.  You have a belief you do not want to release, and refuse to even consider that you may be wrong.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


> When they pass me the collection plate, I say thank you Lord, and take a few bucks.




Hey , catch up to the conversation , there's a new thing going on; no more collection " Plates" , now we use popcorn buckets to hold more cash. The collection plate began in 1662 , plates and dishes were used ,but they are no longer big enough to rake in the dough.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
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> > When they pass me the collection plate, I say thank you Lord, and take a few bucks.
> ...


Hey, here's a clue for the terminally uninformed.  Come visit and you'll see what actually goes on.  Don't, and you're not firing on all cylinders, you're just emotionally lashing out.


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## Mudda (Jul 27, 2016)

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I don't want popcorn, I only take cash.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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The popcorn was out in the lobby, along with the coffee.  Now there's coffee and baked goods in the lobby since we're not in a theater any more.  Sorry to disappoint you, but the buckets are empty except for some visitor cards.  Not even much cash because most members give online.


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## Mudda (Jul 27, 2016)

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Your church sucks. I bet your women aren't horny either.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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Wow, you're juvenile.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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Creflo Dollar has ATM's in his church lobby for those interested.

ATM's in the lobby , good grief , what a tangled web  we weave. Stunning deception being swallowed daily.


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## Mudda (Jul 27, 2016)

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I'm single, I'm looking for a horny single religious chick. Know any?


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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I wouldn't tell you either way.  You'll just have to stay frustrated.  So sorry, said no one in particular.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

We don't want your money , but you can give on the internet , use the ATM in the lobby , or make use of the popcorn bucket at collection time.


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## Mudda (Jul 27, 2016)

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I hear religious chicks don't give any head. That true?


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> We don't want your money , but you can give on the internet , use the ATM in the lobby , or make use of the popcorn bucket at collection time.


If you're a visitor, no one's asking you to give anything.  If you're a member, church expenses are known and the budget is known.

Again I say, come find out for yourself.  The thing is, you won't.  You would rather stay ignorant so you don't have to change your opinion and admit that there are churches that are doing it right and are not obsessed with money.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Actually the use of popcorn buckets instead of collection plates is stunning ;  they hold  much more money ,  the buckets are relatively inexspensive  and the deacons can eat popcorn when they need new buckets.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


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I wouldn't tell you either way.  You'll just have to stay uninformed.  So sorry, said no one in particular.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Actually the use of popcorn buckets instead of collection plates is stunning ;  they hold  much more money ,  the buckets are relatively inexspensive  and the deacons can eat popcorn when they need new buckets.


Which is stupid, because I already told you what goes in them.  Are you actually paying attention or just spouting whatever occurs to you?


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > Actually the use of popcorn buckets instead of collection plates is stunning ;  they hold  much more money ,  the buckets are relatively inexspensive  and the deacons can eat popcorn when they need new buckets.
> ...




How about paying attention to the Sunday  morning stick up;

How passing the plate becomes a 'Sunday morning stickup' - CNN.com


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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How about coming to our church and actually finding out?


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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I've been to enough churches , 30 years worth of going ;  no thanks ,no more for me. I will never allow a church to get between me and God again. I don't need that crutch to walk.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 27, 2016)

the_human_being said:


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You're the one who brought up Obamacare and tried to mix it with a discussion about the Bible.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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Then you are arguing from ignorance and intending to stay that way.  You are condemning all churches based on your own limited experiences and refusing to even find out if there are some out there doing it right.  Don't get me wrong, there are bad churches out there, and quite frankly, I don't pay attention to the televised ones because they are generally wrapped up in money.  But there are also a lot of really good ones that are not.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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I don't condemn churches , its the Christian churches that teach condemnation to their hell. There are no " Really good churches" ,  and some churches may be better than others. Churches are no longer for me , I don't need them. I walk alone . I left Egypt long ago and I am not going back ; I am no longer bound. I walk a different path.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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The true Church is a community of believers that spans all denominational boundaries and is contained by none of them.  You cannot walk alone as you are easy prey for the enemy.  You can be bound by him and not even realize it.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 27, 2016)

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If your statement that the true Church is a community of believers that spans all denominational boundaries, then answer me this......................

Why is it that Northern and Southern Baptists can never get along, even though both belong to the Baptist branch of Christianity?


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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There is no true church on earth now. There is no church that is like a light on a hill; in my biblical understanding ,God has  not yet called out his church for these times. But when he does ,I think they will be quite something, I only wish I live to see them. They will not have pastors or leaders,  the holy spirit will lead them. There is no church like that now ; that is how one can biblically see them.  Its how I know they are not yet here.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


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I don't know, I'm not a Baptist.  They are not following Christ's command, now are they, where He said that the world would know we are His disciples by our love for one another?  This is why I keep saying that you need to stop focusing on the big denominational churches who are more concerned with money and denominational identity than they are about being Christ's ambassadors to the world and each others' brothers.  There are a lot of smaller ones out there that focus more on Christ's commands.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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That is not true.  God has had His church out there all the time, even though you have become jaded and can't see it.  Yes, the Holy Spirit leads that church, but there will always be a need for pastors and leaders.  That is God ordained.  

What we see in America now is what happens to the Church when it is not challenged, when it is accepted and becomes culturally dominant.  It becomes stagnant and more concerned with things like money and power than the things of God.  Don't worry, as things become darker, even small lights become brighter.  The Church will shine.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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A group is coming that  will not need pastors ; I John 2:27 they will NOT NEED teaching from anyone. These believers will not be crutch Christians that are needy.

The churches in  this world now will stay like they are;  silently led by satan devil.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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1 John 2:24-27 





> 24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
> 
> 26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.



As you can see, it does not that there is coming a group that doesn't need pastors or leaders.  The early church had pastors and leaders.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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The end of churches and Christianity is near ;  but you don't take away a pacifier without the baby crying.


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## hadit (Jul 27, 2016)

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The Church won't vanish from the earth until Christ takes His bride home and all hell breaks loose.  You can't stomp it out.  Many have tried and it only grows stronger.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

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The church Christ started vanished less than 100 years after he left. That church got so filled with paganism , Christ hates the things it now does.

Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola Author and George Barna


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

How about a bit more on tithing;

The Origin of Tithing


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 27, 2016)

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Jesus is coming, and boy is He pissed!  

You know, if Jesus came back today, He'd be a bit upset and disappointed in what Christianity has done to His teachings.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


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> > Mickiel said:
> ...




I agree 200%!!


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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That's why the true Church doesn't recognize man's divisions.


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## Mudda (Jul 28, 2016)

If the church needs money, why don't they ask god? He a cheapskate or something?


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> If the church needs money, why don't they ask god? He a cheapskate or something?




God does not have any money ; what's God going to do with money?


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## hobelim (Jul 28, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Jesus is coming, and boy is He pissed!
> 
> You know, if Jesus came back today, He'd be a bit upset and disappointed in what Christianity has done to His teachings.




I doubt it, he would have known before he arrived just like he seemed to know in advance the first time he appeared that worship involving his name would degenerate into idolatry.  If he came back today with people so lost in confusion looking up into the sky expecting a supernatural magician or some pusillanimous wimp to appear they most likely wouldn't even notice until the time of his choosing.

If someone did recognize him and asked him to straighten things out,  it would take about a week to create a new heaven and a new earth.

If he came again and people refused to acknowledge his accomplishment in bringing the kingdom of heaven within the reach of man, again,  the opportunity may never come again.

What he opens no man can shut and what he shuts, no man can open.


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## Mudda (Jul 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > If the church needs money, why don't they ask god? He a cheapskate or something?
> ...


Give it to the churches, they seem desperate. Kinda like a homeless person with his hand out all the time.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




The original churches met in homes , not buildings.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> If the church needs money, why don't they ask god? He a cheapskate or something?


Because God expects us to make use of the abilities He gave us.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Sure did, and still do in places where it is illegal to meet publicly.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Mudda said:
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You need to actually experience Church instead of relying on what you see on TV.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus is coming, and boy is He pissed!
> ...


His return will be to rule the world with a rod of iron.  It will be the ultimate theocracy.


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## hobelim (Jul 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




I disagree.

His return will be to reveal that the kingdom of God has always been in existence and Gods law has always been and will always be in effect and in full force, reigning supreme over all of the kingdoms of man from the beginning...


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## Mudda (Jul 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > If the church needs money, why don't they ask god? He a cheapskate or something?
> ...


What ability is it to pass around a plate demanding money?


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## Mudda (Jul 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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I used to go to church, they asked for a handout every single time. It was pretty annoying. Like guys, get a job.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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> > Mudda said:
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That is their job, if they have staff positions and paid pastors.  Caring about people, listening to their problems, giving them counsel, preparing sermons, visiting the sick, etc are time intensive things to do.  Doesn't leave much time to work a second job.


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## Mudda (Jul 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > hadit said:
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It sure leaves lots of time to be a pedophile though. Why is that?


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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> > Mudda said:
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Ah, now I know what you're really referring to, which is the massive, wealthy, very powerful Catholic Church.  I am not a Catholic and am not affiliated with them at all.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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See, that's where you're wrong.  I have yet to be part of a church that demanded money.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

The Christian tithe is a rip off from the old testament practice of giving food to the priest ,  they changed it on their own to giving money to the clergy. Neither God or Christ EVER made that change. And no theologian can disagree with this, only ignorant money changers would disagree.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe is a rip off from the old testament practice of giving food to the priest ,  they changed it on their own to giving money to the clergy. Neither God or Christ EVER made that change. And no theologian can disagree with this, only ignorant money changers would disagree.


God still loves a cheerful giver.  That has never changed, and giving to your home congregation enables them to spread the Gospel.  It's really quite simple, and you shouldn't get so hung up on the Churches that have become perverted by money.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian tithe is a rip off from the old testament practice of giving food to the priest ,  they changed it on their own to giving money to the clergy. Neither God or Christ EVER made that change. And no theologian can disagree with this, only ignorant money changers would disagree.
> ...




I wonder why  Jesus was so hung up on prosperity ministries in Rev.3:17 and his church being perverted with money? Well  he hated it. This is why deceived believers will try  to sweep  this subject under  the rug.


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## hadit (Jul 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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Well, I am not doing so.  I am stating that there are congregations that are indeed more worried about money, power and prestige than the lost, and Christ will deal with them, as you pointed out from Rev.  I am, however, also stating that there are congregations that are less worried about money than they are about the lost and about discipling the faithful.  You're basically throwing the baby out with the bath water by declaring ALL congregations guilty because some are.

The prosperity gospel is a crock as far as I am concerned.  God chooses to bless financially whom He will bless and His criteria are not ours.  I do believe that God blesses and provides for those who faithfully give, but I will not say that if you give X amount, you will receive Y amount.


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## Mudda (Jul 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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> > hadit said:
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Is that the church of the brokeass mountain?


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
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Can you list 10 bible verses which state God blesses those who give?

I mean , just 10? I am curious to see them.

Oh and if you can , 10 verses that state God will bless you if you give money to a church.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 28, 2016)

I have a solution.............if you don't want to tithe, don't go to church and seek out God on your own.

Yes, it is possible.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> I have a solution.............if you don't want to tithe, don't go to church and seek out God on your own.
> 
> Yes, it is possible.




Of course its possible ;  in my view a person curious about God would be better off avoiding churches and study on their own. That way they would not be affected with human meddling. Bypass all the junk that is in others  and don't let them pour that mess into you.


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## ABikerSailor (Jul 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > I have a solution.............if you don't want to tithe, don't go to church and seek out God on your own.
> ...



Actually, that's kinda how I came to my current belief in God.  As a child, I was shifted around from family to family (was in foster care after I was orphaned at 8), and every family I was placed in would tell me that the beliefs of the family I just left were wrong and that I now had to believe as they did. 

I quit church at 16 because of that. 

Later, because I still knew there was something out there that was bigger than me, I started to look at other belief systems until I found one that suited me, which was Tao.  In studying Tao, I saw where all belief systems were pretty much similar.........they all have some form of a deity that watches over us, we should take care of others, not lie, cheat, steal or murder, and that if we do good here, we will go somewhere better when we shuffle off our mortal coil.  If not, we go somewhere else. 

Now?  I like to listen to rabbis, some preachers, study Judaism, Buddhism, Tao, and parts of Christianity.  The place where I part ways with certain belief systems is when they get mired down in their own dogma.  My belief?  The only "sin" that there is, is what is outlined in the 10 Commandments or the 7 Noahide Commandments.  Anything else is just a vice, which if followed long enough, can cause you to sin. 

Besides...................I firmly think that God is too big to be contained in just 1 dogma, and I also think that He speaks to each of us in a unique way, because as humans, we are all just a little bit different, and have differing views of how we perceive the world.

And..................if we are all alike, we are drones and clones, and God doesn't want that, because if He didn't, we wouldn't have free will.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

I don't believe in free will myself, but I agree that God is too much to be contained in anything human other than Christ.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I don't believe in free will myself, but I agree that God is too much to be contained in anything human other than Christ.




Free will is described as the capability to decide for yourself , without having outside influences on you mind, Which I think is impossible. The mind has to be your own; no 0ther  thinking can invade your own.
A free wil is  wide ,now your thinking is invaded  and wide open to manipulation


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## hadit (Jul 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Which one, the one I said I was never a part of?


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

There are no scriptures in the New covenant where God or Christ commands the church to tithe, not in the bible ;  but you see , sheep like members are following the commands of their leaders to tithe; their leaders are as meaningful as the bible to them.


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## hadit (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


1.  Note that I did not say "God promises to enrich those who give to a church".  I said I believe that God blesses and provides for those who faithfully give.  I say that from personal experience.  There is a promise to Israel, however, that God will bless them if they are faithful, and we know that God does not change.  From Malachi 3: 





> 8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.
> 
> “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’
> 
> “In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the Lord Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the Lord Almighty.



2.  Consider this passage from 2 Corinthians 9:  





> 6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:
> 
> “They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
> their righteousness endures forever.”
> ...



This is the model from the early Church.  From Acts 2: 





> 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.



Is it any wonder those outside the Church can't understand why Christians today are expected to be generous, and should be giving to help those in need?  Is it any wonder that charlatans pop up and try to scam the faithful?  So why do we give to a Church today?  Because the Church is world wide and there is no one organization to give to any more.  We give to our local congregations so they can carry on the work in our communities, as well as around the world.

I'm ignoring your "10 verses" thing.  That's simplistic.


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## hadit (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> There are no scriptures in the New covenant where God or Christ commands the church to tithe, not in the bible ;  but you see , sheep like members are following the commands of their leaders to tithe; their leaders are as meaningful as the bible to them.


Note that I am not disputing that, but as I posted, God DOES expect His people to be generous, and not to keep what we have for ourselves when others are in need.  The local Church is one organization that Christians can give to that then helps those in need.  In fact, the tithe can be considered both a floor and a ceiling.  Under the law, you were expected to give 10%, but that was it.  Under Christ, you're simply expected to be generous, and that doesn't stop at 10%.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




Your ignoring it because its the smart thing to do; there are not ten verses of God commanding the people to give money to a church;  they are exactly NONE! But the Christian mind does not need a command from God , they just need a command from their ministry.


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## hadit (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


And you're clearly ignoring the Scriptures I posted.  Read them.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




God is not against giving, but God has NEVER commanded his people to  tithe to a church , Jesus NEVER taught tithing to a church ,  and neither God or Christ EVER taught that they would bless you if you tithe. You cannot produce these scriptures , because they don't exist in the bible; but Christians don't need things to be in the bible, only to be in their belief. Like the Trinity ; no where in the bible period , but every where in Christian belief.


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## hadit (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Did you read the Scriptures I posted?


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## Mudda (Jul 29, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


So you don't give money to the church you don't go to. Got it. So, like, why are you here again?


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## Weatherman2020 (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.



OP is a lie.


*Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.*
2 Corinthians 9:7


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## hadit (Jul 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


To correct a lot of misinformation I see posted.  Why are you here?


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## hadit (Jul 29, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...


That is my point.  Jesus raised the bar on a lot of things.  The Law said that if you kill someone, you are guilty of murder.  He said that if you hold hate in your heart for someone, you are just as guilty.  The Law said that you should not commit adultery.  He said that if you lusted after someone else, you are just as guilty.  The Law says to give 10%.  He says to be generous, and that doesn't stop at 10%.


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## Weatherman2020 (Jul 29, 2016)

hadit said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Again, read s l o w l y

*Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.*

If giving nothing makes you cheerful, great.  If giving all your processions makes you cheerful, great.  Imagine if the IRS worked that way.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...




Show us where God or Jesus or Any Apostle commanded the church to tithe. Answer S L O W L Y


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## Weatherman2020 (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Really?  And you started this thread?

Leviticus 27:30

Numbers 18:26

Deuteronomy 14:22-29

1 Samuel 15:22

2 Chronicles 31:5

Matthew 5:17-19

James 1:5

2 Corinthians 9:7


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...




Ahhh ,now the Christian rip off is getting bold ; finally! Now, Matt. 5 , James 1 and 2 Corinth. 9:7 say absolutely NOTHING about tithing; but IF you want to deceive people and manipulate the bible , then one can be untruthful and claim its talking about tithing. Notice the Christians are starting to get desperate, posting scriptures that don't mention tithing , in order to support tithing. Its their way.


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## Weatherman2020 (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Leviticus 27:30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. 

Game Over


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...




Oh no , the Old Covenant is over ;  yet even in that scripture the tithe is clearly "Land and grain and fruit" , NEVER money! But greedy Christians changed the scripture into meaning money ; you know , like your trying to do now.

Same spirit , same motivation ; same deception , same old lie.


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## Weatherman2020 (Jul 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Moonbat thinks Jesus came to tear down the law.
New Testament, dufus:
*Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.*
*
*


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...




I hold  no need to call anyone names , such is a Christian practice;  the Christian tithe is a compulsion to give 10%  or be cursed . The original tithe was food , not money. The Christian church has inherited lies;

Jeremiah 16:19," Surely  our fathers have inherited lies , vanity and  things of no profit."


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Here's a you tube on Tithing;



Enjoy the truth.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

More real biblical looks at Tithing;

Tithing: The Great False Doctrine

Also "The Lie of Tithing"

The Lie of Tithing


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Christians rip off the tithes, just like their trying to rip off sinners from being in God's Kingdom.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

American Christians have a selfish desire to " Be THE Church." They think they ARE the anointed of God, which is why they are so condemning of unbelievers. They have taken the Kingdom by the violence of their own will ;

Do American Christians Want to Be the Church? | Cerulean Sanctum


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

What is the curse of the tithe?

Do we go blind if we do not give? Do you loose a limb? Do  loosing  our teeth? What is the curse? Do we get retarted?


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## yiostheoy (Jul 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.


You are correct.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...




 Well thank you.


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## onefour1 (Jul 30, 2016)

Verses supporting tithing in the New Testament

*Luke 11:42*
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other *undone*.


*Matthew 23:23*
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other *undone*.

A revelation from God regarding the payment of tithing.

*Doctrine and Covenants 64:23*
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.


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## Mickiel (Jul 31, 2016)

onefour1 said:


> Verses supporting tithing in the New Testament
> 
> *Luke 11:42*
> 42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other *undone*.
> ...


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## Mickiel (Aug 6, 2016)

What's one thing famous Christian Pastors have in common?

Their rich!


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

The Christian tithe  is milking the world of its money , just as its theology is milking the world of its salvation.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe  is milking the world of its money , just as its theology is milking the world of its salvation.


How much does the President make? How much does the President give back in charity?


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe  is milking the world of its money , just as its theology is milking the world of its salvation.


Everything belongs to the LORD. The world owns NOTHING!


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian tithe  is milking the world of its money , just as its theology is milking the world of its salvation.
> ...



I think the presidents salary is 200,000 a year, the average mega church pastors salary is in the millions. How much do they give back in charity?


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


*How Much Does The President Make?*
*By Brian Warner on January 20, 2015 in Articles › Entertainment*
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/ar...n-hill-opening-private-museum-art-collection/
*President of the United States Salary*: How much money does President make a year? President Barack Obama earns a base salary of *$400,000* per year. He is also given a few nice bonuses like an annual expense account, a travel account and a $20,000 entertainment stipend. These fringe benefits bring the President's total salary to just over *$550,000* each year. Has the president always been paid so little (relatively), considering the weight and responsibility of the job?  Well, some decades are better than others.  For example, back in the late 1700s, when America was young, the president's annual salary was $25,000.  If you adjust $25,000 for inflation, that figure translates to about $560,000, which is approximately Obama's salary today including the perks.  By contrast, President Richard Nixon's salary in 1969 was $200,000, which is a little over $1 million dollars in today dollars.  He may have claimed not to be a crook, but in presidential salary terms, he was a hustler.  Still, that's nothing compared to President Theodore Roosevelt.  The first Roosevelt earned a salary of $75,000 per year — in modern bucks, that's $1.7 million dollars.  You could buy a lot of Teddy Bears with that kinda scratch.

Let's compare President Obama's net worth to other living presidents. Obama has a net worth of $12.2 million dollars. Former president George H. W. Bush is worth $15 million and his son George W. Bush is more than twice that amount at $35 million. However, none of them are in the league of Bill Clinton, who is worth $80 million dollars! (I bet he's grateful Hillary never demanded a divorce!).  Clinton's former Vice President's not doing bad either: Al Gore has a net worth of $300 million! Gore's Global Warming documentary An Inconvenient Truth and television network Current TV made Al a ton of money.  Still, if you're adding up the net worth of the living US presidents vs. the top earning actors who have played US presidents in movies or TV, the actors will win hands down. Martin Sheen (West Wing): $50 million. Stephen Colbert (Monsters vs. Aliens): $45 million. Harrison Ford (Air Force One): $200 million.  If you're in the "presidential game" purely for salary, I would take a months-long superstar movie gig over 4 years on the government payroll.

However, we should remember that Barack Obama is relatively young.  He has many years to write more books, serve on the advisory boards for corporations and accept lucrative speaking engagements Clinton currently earns $250,000 per speech! So what do you think? Is the President underpaid


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
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No I don't think presidents are under paid , I think pastors are over paid. The bible does not support clergy salaries, you support it; but quit trying to say the bible supports it. Give me the biblical scriptures that support the clergy salary;  this I got to see.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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*Question: "Should pastors be paid a salary?"

Answer: * A church should definitely provide for the financial needs of its pastor(s) and any other full-time ministers. First Corinthians 9:14 gives the church clear instruction: “The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.” We pay people to prepare and serve our physical food; shouldn’t we also be willing to pay those who see to our spiritual food? And, honestly, which is more important—physical food or spiritual food—based on Matthew 4:4?

First Timothy 5:17–18 says, “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,’ and ‘The worker deserves his wages.’” There are several points made in this passage. Church elders should be honored, and this honor includes wages. Those elders who serve the church well—especially teachers and preachers—should receive _double_ honor. They have earned it. It would be cruel to work an ox while denying it grain, and we should take care not to treat our pastors cruelly. Let them share in the material blessings of the congregation they serve. Our pastors are worth more than many oxen.

There is nothing spiritual about making a pastor “suffer for the Lord.” Yes, a pastor has been divinely called to his ministry, but it does not follow that a congregation should say, “Let God take care of him.” God says the local church is responsible to take care of him and his family. Caring for the spiritual needs of a congregation is an important work—probably more important than other things we normally spend money on, such as meeting our physical needs, maintaining our vehicles, and entertaining ourselves. See 1 Corinthians 9:7.

It is true that the apostle Paul supported himself as he ministered in Corinth (1 Corinthians 9:12). He drew no salary from the Corinthians. But he made it clear that he did this as a voluntary sacrifice on their behalf, “that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel” (verse 18). Paul did take wages from other churches (2 Corinthians 11:8). His arrangement in Corinth was the exception, not the rule.

Sometimes a church is just not able to provide sufficient finances for a pastor. The pastor in such cases is forced to be bi-vocational, having no choice but to work outside the church to support his family. This is regrettable but sometimes necessary. It is usually better for a pastor to be paid full-time so he can fully dedicate himself to the Lord’s work of ministering to and shepherding the congregation God has entrusted to him.


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## Mickiel (Aug 8, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


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Goodness , Christians sure know how to rape the bible;  1Corinth. 9:14," Even so the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel  should live of the gospel." This has absolutely nothing to do with money, it means obedience to the word you are preaching. Boy , you Christians have been taken for a long ride. Your stifling the gospel  and putting burdens on people.


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## Mickiel (Aug 8, 2016)

Look at these pastors salary;

Top 50 Ludicrously Wealthy Pastors


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## HaShev (Aug 13, 2016)

What's this $173. seed the priests of bel are asking for now?  They say otcs for a breakthrough, what is that supposed to mean a BREAKTHROUGH?  IS that the code word for breaking ground for a new swimming pool or vacation home?


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## HaShev (Aug 14, 2016)

Here's another one this morning, unbelievable.
This Campmeeting broadcast had a evangelist stating about  the cause and affect connectivity that if some lose money equal amounts are gained by another and if someone gains that means someone is losing  it, AND THAT HE one day woke up and decided he was gonna to be the one gaining the money as the other is losing.
In other words sorry fools, he's gonna be on the receiving end of his donators losing it to him.  *LOL* 
How do you continue on after hearing that admission? 
And I think I know why this pastor justifies his actions.  If what he said prior  is true, he was picked on severly as a child and deep inside this guy feels human beings in general are evil and deserve to be taken advantage of.  That's a disturbing logic worse then his money logic, because he is grouping innocent people for the acts of those he had bad experience with, much like Radicals do, Christians did blanket blaming all Jews for what Rome had done, Jilted people blame whole genders for a few bad relationships, Racial blames (on all sides), Cops being blanketed and blamed collectively, etc.
Religion, ethics, morality, does not work without understanding human behavior, social sciences and such that affect our justification for the manner in which we roll the Bull that we do-Scarab 101.


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## Mickiel (Sep 3, 2016)

The Christian tithe is a rip off of churches that use the bible for milking their members  of money ;  members that refuse to study the subject of tithing and see the truth.


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## Clement (Sep 3, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> I am ignorant of the details of tithing and I appreciate the education. It helps me understand a little better what motivated my Dad.



You aren't going to get an education from this guy, I don't think he knows any ministers.


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## Mickiel (Sep 3, 2016)

Clement said:


> MarathonMike said:
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> > I am ignorant of the details of tithing and I appreciate the education. It helps me understand a little better what motivated my Dad.
> ...




Oh I know plenty of them; but the bible itself can educate a reader on false ministers; you don't have to know them, you can just smell them ; greed and deception smells the same.


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

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You know, I have never met anybody who comes to church who doesn't expect the heat and air conditioning to be working, for the landscaping to be done and the food pantry to be full. Maybe you think that just happens by itself, or that God alone does it in the middle of he night?

So the Bible educates you on false ministers, does it? Does it also educate you on bearing false witness?


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## hobelim (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


> So the Bible educates you on false ministers, does it? Does it also educate you on bearing false witness?




Sure. Its usually the false ministers and false priests who are bearing false witness.

I heard that some priests actually have the audacity to try to snag people into their churches by claiming that God is edible and that they just happen to have exclusive distribution rights to his flesh. Then,  for a nominal service charge,  they hand you something as tasteless as it is lifeless that doesn't even qualify as a cheap snack food for 'believers'  to worship and eat. Imagine that!

I have no idea why anyone ever goes back, unless of course they lost their minds in the process.

Maybe that bronze age fairy tale and warning about a talking serpent always on the prowl trying to possess the souls of the gullible through deception has some merit to it?  You know, the part where it says that in the very day that you allow Satan to enter your mind to perpetuate evil you will surely die.


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


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Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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Oh the bible is not against giving , but it is against giving " under compulsion" ; or making members think they must give or they get cursed or will not be blessed. And I don't think God is in charge of any of  those churches you mentioned in your example.

One of us is bearing false witness for sure. I love to know when I am wrong, but Christians think they are right all  the time.


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Well, you're wrong. For every Creflo Dollar in the world there are millions of men engaged in sincere ministry for the cause of Christ who feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, take care of the widow and orphan, and visit the sick and imprisoned, and they and their flocks are the ones who suffer because of guys like Creflo and the slander of people like you. They work for nothing, run their ministries on pennies, and work day jobs for the cause of Christ. Shame on you.


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


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Well Jesus himself taught that HIS church would do things he is against ; in Rev. 2: 4, in Rev. 2:15 Jesus HATED the things his church was doing; in 2:20 he has more against HIS churches , in Rev. 3: 14-22 Jesus gives a description of the final stage of his church, its an obvious prosperity church phase ;notice verse 17,they  like being rich and increased with goods , they are described by Jesus as being wretched , miserable , poor , blind  and  naked! In verse 20 Jesus is standing at their door and knocking , obviously  meaning  he is  on the " Outside of HIS church!" This is Jesus description of his church in the last days. I don't care what any of you Christians say,  I go by what Christ has said. Period!


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Well, I don't care about what YOU say, I go by what Christ said, and the ministers I know who are charitable to the poor are not the church of Laodicea.


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


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Well Jesus taught that his final church era or stage will be  Laodicean ,   a prosperity ministry;  if a believer views this present life as being in the last days, then all of Jesus churches are Laodicean in nature. Period! After Laodicea comes the end;  then Jesus returns. But God will call another group of believers called the first fruits , they will be chosen by God and led by the Holy Spirit;  no ministers , no leaders , they will be taught and led by the Spirit. There is no church like that now on earth.


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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You are really confused. I was just reading your thread where you claim that there is such a thing as universal salvation, then you turn around and from the other side of your mouth you condemn the Church.

Frankly, the more I read of you the more I think that you wish you were God.


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


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I challenge you to produce me saying that there is no such thing as universal salvation ; I have never said that in my life. I see no reason for you to lie on me. Universal salvation is the true gospel. Its the desire of God.


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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You have to accept it. I can write you a check for a million dollars but it's worthless until you take it and cash it.


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


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Jesus did not teach that; in John 12:47 Jesus taught - " If anyone hears my words and does not believe them ,  I judge him not. For I came NOT to judge the world ,  but to SAVE the WORLD!" Humans do not have to accept Christ on their own , they must be drawn by God, John 6:44;I totally disagree with Christianity on this.


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## MaryL (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.


Well christians just want  a tidy profit. And christians are being almost vilified here. Now you take a religion, any religion...say islam. Crash planes into Manhattan. Chainsaw people in half and behead people, that is ok, SHHH! Don't wanta back lash, that would be WRONG. Can't have that, can we?


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

MaryL said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...




No matter what Islamic terrorist have done , nothing in human life could be worse than the Christian teaching of eternal hell punishing ;  nothing! The human is punished alive for 9 thousand years , plus another 9 million years , plus another 9 billion years , plus another 9 trillion more years, and then on into infinity. Its truly insane!


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Go to the next verse:

"The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day." - John 12:48 ESV.


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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What stands out to me is Jesus saying that he came to " Save the WORLD!" A stunning  thing to teach , its universalism down pact! Its also WHY the Father sent Jesus to earth; 1 John 4:14," And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son  to BE the Savior of THE WORLD!" Not just believers or those who accept him, but the WORLD means everyone!

Praise God for his awesome plan.


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## MarathonMike (Sep 4, 2016)

I have no idea what you two are arguing about. The OP I believe is correct in calling out the Christian practice of coerced tithing from those who believe their salvation depends on it. That is COMPLETELY different from passing around an offering plate or asking support for some church project or to help a needy person that is part of the congregation.


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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He'll save the world if they'll have it. A lot of them won't have it, and he knew it.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; *depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’*

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. *And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
*
Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’ But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.’ Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’ And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. *For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’”*


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> I have no idea what you two are arguing about. The OP I believe is correct in calling out the Christian practice of coerced tithing from those who believe their salvation depends on it. That is COMPLETELY different from passing around an offering plate or asking support for some church project or to help a needy person that is part of the congregation.




Well I agree ;I have seen some churches use big popcorn buckets instead of plates to haul in the  plunder. Along with this doctrine of " Plant a seed of money and reap a harvest of blessings from God", essentially buying the blessings.


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## chikenwing (Sep 4, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> I am ignorant of the details of tithing and I appreciate the education. It helps me understand a little better what motivated my Dad.


Faith was his motivator.


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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You have listed seven verses ,i'll put these 100 against them any day;
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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No, you don't get to do that. I am not going to read some propagandists web page, you have to argue the point for yourself and explain it yourself.


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## Papageorgio (Sep 4, 2016)

Why do people feel the need to but tinto others business. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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I'll argue it as I please;  how about 600 more salvation of all verses ;
600+ Scriptures Confirming Universal Salvation


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
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Looks like we're done here, I am not going to try to converse with someone who can't even hold up his end of the conversation.


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## Mickiel (Sep 5, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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Peace on your journey.


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## Mickiel (Sep 5, 2016)

The Christian money fraud;


The Prosperity Gospel Creates Poor Christians


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

The 8th century tithe was practiced as a voluntary offering , by the 10th century it had developed into a legal requirement to fund the state church, demanded by the clergy and enforced by the secular authorities.


29. Secular History of Tithing


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## Hawkins (Sep 6, 2016)

That's God's way to make the gospel spread, men can use it for their ill will though.

What else do you think that the "good news" can convey?


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Hawkins said:


> That's God's way to make the gospel spread, men can use it for their ill will though.
> 
> What else do you think that the "good news" can convey?




God does not use money to spread the truth, he uses his Holy  Spirit to communicate his message.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

The tithe is illegal;

The Tithe is Illegal


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## Campbell (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.



Any time mankind assembles for a religious reason there is a period dedicated to allowing the greedy to take advantage of ordinary folks. Right now the church owns more real property than any other entity on earth. Meanwhile nearly a billion on earth, mostly children, are suffering and dying from poor nutrition and starvation:


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## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

Campbell said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...




The church is a money making machine.


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## Clement (Sep 7, 2016)

Campbell said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...



Why don't I ever hear people like you bitching about George Soros?


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## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


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You just think religion is pure in all things , you think Christianity is right ,  right and right all the time. Such a mindset cannot look truth in the face , it must sugar coat its own beliefs . Your religion is transparent , I see through it.


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## Clement (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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No, what I think is what's true is true and what's not true is BS, and I see that the truth is not in you. You are what is known as a troll, sir, a shit stirrer, if you prefer. People like you come to sites like this probably because they think everybody is as clueless as they are and no one will catch them in their falsehoods and half truths. Then they pick fights and cry foul when they get caught. 

No, sir, YOU are the problem, not "religion" not Christianity, but people who can't stand the idea that someone might be happy with their own lives.


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## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


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Explain to me how I am a troll ; I post only on my own threads , no where else hardly. You come to my thread , which your welcome too ,then accuse me of being a troll. No matter ,I still welcome you , and I still oppose you. And expose you.


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## kjw47 (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


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He is 100% correct, we are not under the mosaic law of the tithe. Jesus' parable proved it true. Every teacher asking for the tithe is a liar. Run from them. They are wolves in sheeps clothing.


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## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> Clement said:
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The old testament tithe was the product of land , not money. No Christians tithed in the New Testament, that is a big lie prosperity ministers pull. People are fooled because of their lack of knowledge.


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## hadit (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> MaryL said:
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Better make sure you don't end up there.


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## hadit (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
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Dude, I think we've been down this road before.  Scripture is clear, many will NOT be saved, because they refuse the gift.  If I remember correctly, you just ignored all the Scripture I posted that made that point.


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## Weatherman2020 (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Hawkins said:
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> > That's God's way to make the gospel spread, men can use it for their ill will though.
> ...


Maybe you should find out what the Great Commission is before you display your ignorance more.


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## hadit (Sep 7, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Hawkins said:
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It is very interesting to see his responses when a simple reading of the Bible makes it abundantly clear that many will not be saved.  You have to ignore virtually the entire thing to make that case.


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## Weatherman2020 (Sep 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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His demons won't let him read the Bible.


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## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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I have read these 100 bible verses;
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

And these 600;
600+ Scriptures Confirming Universal Salvation

They all teach the salvation of all.


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## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> hadit said:
> 
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Just keep reading the thread.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 7, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Priests didn't farm.  They relied on tithes and first fruits and fish and herbs that were brought to the Temple. The premise is that the more time the Priests had to fend for themselves the less time they had to spend in prayer on the behalf of the tither.  Let's ask Christ what He thinks about it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am a closet atheist that has tithed every cent of my income since I was 11 years old.  Only you guys know this about me.  In real life I am a devout Southern Baptist that has tithed every cent of my income since I was 11 years old.  I have never lacked of anything.  There has never been a time in my life where I couldn't come up with $2,000 if an emergency arose.  My income has sucked at times but I have never been desperate.  There have been many times where I thought my church was being wasteful and ridiculous with the money I donated.  I donated 10% of my income to individuals in my environment that needed a boost.  I donated 10% of my income to other worthwhile charities.  I have never done it but I wouldn't be closed to the idea of burning 10% of my income.  It would serve the same purpose.  10% is a lot of money.  It causes me to be very careful with what I do with the remaining 90%.  I've already lost 10%.  I can't be messing around.  As an atheist it may sound odd but tithing is a Godsend.  lol  I'm glad it was a habit taught to me.  It has caused me to prosper financially and I say that from a secular point of view.  Tithing is a good habit to develop but I recommend giving 10% to friends or strangers that you hear that are having a hard time.  It's more rewarding than giving to a church.  Many charities and churches wouldn't exist without the practice of tithing.  Tithing has been a major success from a historical perspective.  I highly recommend it to anyone and everyone.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 7, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> I am ignorant of the details of tithing and I appreciate the education. It helps me understand a little better what motivated my Dad.



Most Protestant traditions define tithing as giving 10% of your income to the local church where you are a member. That's what makes it so successful.  It's a fairly simple concept that requires a tangible sacrifice. 10% makes for easy math too.  Too many things in religion are ambiguous, intangible or complicated.  Tithing is clear, concise and easy to understand.  It's very intoxicating because it's one of the few times that you know you are doing the right thing.  That's a big win for a religiously motivated person.  There is only one verse that people use to promote the practice.

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. Malachi 3:10

Even though I don't believe in God I have still found this verse to be true in my own life.  Tithing has caused me to be blessed financially.  Another possibility is that I was destined to be blessed financially anyways.  I have just been succored into tithing.  If I wouldn't have been doing it all this time then I would be even better off.  However, I highly doubt it.


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > Priests didn't farm.  They relied on tithes and first fruits and fish and herbs that were brought to the Temple. The premise is that the more time the Priests had to fend for themselves the less time they had to spend in prayer on the behalf of the tither.  Let's ask Christ what He thinks about it:
> ...



But don't be confused. Christ called giving to others charity, and it is a good thing.  But the tithe is to the church. Right off the top of your paychecks.  It is the first fruit that goes to God's house.


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Vasuderatorrent, if you don't mind me asking, Why keep your atheism a secret?


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## tyroneweaver (Sep 8, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...


Biblical command to pay tithe. One by Jehovah Himself the other by Paul.

Heb 7:8
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he _receiveth them_, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

*Men that die* are us, probably referring to a congregational leader
*But there He receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth*
Meaning, when you pay tithing you're literally paying tithing to Jesus Himself because _He liveth_ even though you're paying to _men that die_.

Paul supported the words of Jehovah when Jehovah said:
Lk 11:42
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here Jesus criticizise the religion leaders  in their sanctimonious bragging to paying tithing. But the qualifier is He said *do not leave the other undone.*
Which is a reference back to tithing that it is still to be practiced.


Ya know, if I didn't want to abide by the Lord's law of tithing I  would rewrite the Bible and paint it green to.


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## tyroneweaver (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> "If a believer wishes to tithe  out of a personal conviction , that is fine .  Tithing becomes a problem when it is represented as God's command , binding upon every believer." ( Pagan Christianity , pg.178,Frank Viola.) When you have been thrown into deeper poverty because you felt obligated to give beyond your means , that is NOT the command of God! That is a heavy burden of oppression. Your liberty has become oppression. Your religion has become infected.


But the problem is, is that it is a commandment from God.


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## tyroneweaver (Sep 8, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > ABikerSailor said:
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I was put up for adoption. Never have been able to locate my biological parents.


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## tyroneweaver (Sep 8, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > Priests didn't farm.  They relied on tithes and first fruits and fish and herbs that were brought to the Temple. The premise is that the more time the Priests had to fend for themselves the less time they had to spend in prayer on the behalf of the tither.  Let's ask Christ what He thinks about it:
> ...


The selfish on this thread think that if you don't pay tithing God will take out a chapter  11


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## Vastator (Sep 8, 2016)

If "God" wants my money... then he's gonna have to swallow his pride, and ask for it personally. I guess if he's down on his luck I'd try to help him out.


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## Clement (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
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Be glad to. You say you post only on your own threads, when you post on your own forum by yourself then you will not be a troll. As it is, you post on a "religion and philosophy" forum as a want-to-be iconoclast, except you don't know enough to be an iconoclast, you are just trying to stir up trouble. Get some meat into your arguments instead of posting your own meaningless opinion. 

You have to know what the rules are before you can break them, and you don't, you're just making noise.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Vasuderatorrent, if you don't mind me asking, Why keep your atheism a secret?



Let's see.  My kids are Christian.  My wife is a Christian.  My parents are Christian.  My in laws are Christian.  My siblings are Christian.  Every single person in my social circle are Christian.  My boss hired me because I have a reputation as a trustworthy Christian man.  Besides when I tell people they just laugh and pretend it isn't true.  

In short.  The sociological force is strong with me.  My wife, my kids and some of my co-workers know.  Since God doesn't exist then what difference does it make?   It's not like being an open atheist is going to change the world.  I'm just one moron.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 8, 2016)

Vastator said:


> If "God" wants my money... then he's gonna have to swallow his pride, and ask for it personally. I guess if he's down on his luck I'd try to help him out.



I think he already has.


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## Vastator (Sep 8, 2016)

No. He hasn't. But when he does I'll let you know.


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## hadit (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
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I have read them as well, and they do not assure universal salvation, because you have to ignore one central thing, that is that man has a CHOICE.

When Jesus says this, I do not believe in universal salvation:
Matthew 7:13-14


> “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


Perhaps you would be so good as to explain what Jesus meant?

And then he says this:
Matthew 7


> 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’



Again, you have to ignore an awful lot to make that point.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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Everywhere I post people show interest in my noise , including you. I hold no need to attack your personage , but I will punish your precious Christianity ; without end.


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## Clement (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
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So, like all trolls, you do this for the attention?


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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I gladly do it to bear witness to the truth as I understand it; I hold no interest in convincing anyone;  the Holy Spirit holds that job. I have run into opposition from Christians before , I understand their feelings of rage , as I peel layers off of their religion.


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## Clement (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
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What an ego...


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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Not an ego , just a love for the truth. Christianity cannot seduce me ;  the seduction of the Christian mind is stunning . In Rev. 12:9 satan has deceived the " Whole World." How has he done this incredible deception?  Why by using 2.2 billion Christians to  warp the truth. Brilliant seduction.


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Universal salvation.  Jesus' work on the cross was universal.  He left not one soul out.  It was His gift to us.  Nevertheless, few will accept the gift.  That is why the road is narrow.



> Matthew 7
> 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’



^  There were men who knew of Christ's methodology and used it to perform the way Jesus did, without having a relationship with Christ.  Similar to magicians using tricks.  Their hearts weren't in it. It was a cerebral action.
But Christ can see a man's heart. They didn't know Him in their hearts, and therefore, He didn't know them.  They were false disciples.



> Acts 19:13
> Then some Jews who went around trying to drive out demons attempted to use the name of the Lord Jesus on those who had evil spirits, saying, "I command you by that Jesus whom Paul preaches!"


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Universal salvation.  Jesus' work on the cross was universal.  He left not one soul out.  It was His gift to us.  Nevertheless, few will accept the gift.  That is why the road is narrow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am thrilled to announce that  God will not loose ANY human to sin. Job 23:13 " God is of one mind and who can turn him? What he desires THAT he DOES!" Well what does he desire? 1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. And that he has done.

Case closed!

Hello!


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
> 
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What you are referring to is end time prophesy, and has nothing to do with Christians.  Christians will be removed from the earth by that time, as Satan could not deceive the *whole *world as long as Christians were *in *the world.

What is left, once the Christians are removed, will be under the rule of Satan by way of the New World Order/ New World Church which includes any God, and any belief except  belief in Christ.  
There's your truth.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Mickiel said:
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I totally disagree , in Rev. 2nd chapter through the third chapter, 7 churches of God are listed , Jesus has serious problems with 5 of them. All 5 he has problems with are Christian churches. One of them he said he " Hates" what they are doing.

There is THE truth.


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > Universal salvation.  Jesus' work on the cross was universal.  He left not one soul out.  It was His gift to us.  Nevertheless, few will accept the gift.  That is why the road is narrow.
> ...



God desires all of His children be saved.  That is why Christ's work on the cross was all inclusive.  Christ gave all sinners the capability of going boldly to the alter of God. 
Sadly, not all humans* are *God's children. We have free will to accept or not to accept the grace of God, or the propitiation of Christ.  For example Jezebel chose, no thanks,  and was turned into dog s**t.  Her choice, not God's.
  As for Job's question,  the answer is Aaron for one..


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Mickiel said:
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Nonsense , Christianity has infected your thinking. The whole earth is God's and ALL the people of it; Psalms 24:1.


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Irish Ram said:
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He hated what they were doing,  but He didn't them.  
John wrote about  things he saw happening, things he had seen in the past, and things that would be happening in the future.  It is not written chronologically.  
If Babylon falls in Chapter 14, was it rebuilt to fall again in Chapter 18? Did it fall twice or did John go back to 14 while in 18?  
What was current to John is ancient history to us. If those churches apply to Christians today,  then go to the church of Ephesus this Sunday..

Some of what John wrote was contemporary to John's time.  He delivered those messages to those specific churches after his release.   Yet it is history to us.  We view those messages as 7 different spiritual conditions that could apply to us today, not a timeline.  
What we know of Rev's  timeline concerning  those in Christ *today* is found in Thessalonians.   His children are not appointed to His wrath and will be removed before His wrath is unleashed on the world.  Those ancient churches have nothing to do with it.  

1 Thessalonians 5: 8-9 
The Day of the Lord
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


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## koshergrl (Sep 8, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> 
> 10 percent of your total income is a Christian thing.


Actually, it's in the OT.

And for those who haven't known gaybiker for the 60 seconds it takes to figure out he's a blowhard and dipshit, and frequently blathers about shit he has NO CLUE about...well, he's a blowhard, and a dipshit, and blathers on and on INCESSANTLY about topics he obviously knows nothing about. His history at usmb has been long and fruitful, heavy on the fruit. He once famously mistook Lot for Noah in a heated discussion about the OT when he was pontificating during a stint as "Biblical Scholar" on the interwebs.

"*Old Testament*
"Tithe" means a tenth or 10 percent. The tithing system described in the Bible was designed specifically to meet the needs of the religious, economic and political system of ancient Israel. Each of the twelve tribes of Israel, except the tribe of Levi, initially received an allotment of land in the promised land of Canaan. The Levites were assistants to Israel's priests and were supported by a tithe offering from other eleven tribes. All families of those eleven tribes were to give a tenth of all produce, flocks, and cattle to the Levites. In turn, the Levites were to give a tenth of that to support the priests (Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:21-28). Tithes were also used to meet the needs of foreigners, orphans and widows. (Deuteronomy 26:12-13) "

Ten percent. OT.

What Does the Bible Say About the Tithe or Tithing?


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> ...




NONE of those proceeds were EVER money; the greed of Christianity turned the food tithe into money; and the Christian theologians know this , but they also know Christians don't study the bible.


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
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> > Mickiel said:
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His created it all. That does not mean that all will be redeemed.  That is why the Bible makes the distinction. *His* children, *His* elect.    You have already established for us that you do not fall in that category.  You prove my point.
Nowhere does it say in the Bible that all mankind will be saved.  It says the opposite actually.  Acquaint yourself with those in hell begging for a drop of water on their tongue while they await the White Throne Judgement.  They are not God's.  God's children were removed from Abraham's Bosom one chasm away from hell.   They accompanied Christ when He ascended to Heaven. 
 Satan has infected your mind.


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## koshergrl (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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> > ABikerSailor said:
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Lol. What tripe.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > The Irish Ram said:
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It says so in these 100 verses;
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

And these 600 verses;

600+ Scriptures Confirming Universal Salvation

I am thrilled to dispute you.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
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I love debating Christians, but I feel one against 7 is not fair; you need to go and get 25 more to help you. 7 against me is just not fair; I kind of feel like I am taking candy from babies.


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## koshergrl (Sep 8, 2016)

"A false teacher can be anyone in a position of spiritual authority or claiming to be. Wolves don't often attack wolves, but they do go after sheep. They bring destructive teachings and lies into the church, often, by telling people what they want to hear (cf. Jer. 23). They provide layers of truth mixed with error, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

"Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:15-16b)."

7 Traits of False Prophets in Sheep's Clothing


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## koshergrl (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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You don't debate, you just post crazy nonsense.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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Well then here is more ;

Salvation of All Mankind? Is there a Hell? What is salvation?


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
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Enjoy yet more;

How Christianity Turns Millions Away From Christ


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
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What's it feel like Christian ,  finding out you don't have a monopoly on the truth?

What's it feel like?


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## koshergrl (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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I haven't found that out, weirdo.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
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What's it feel like to think you have on a royal robe , but in reality you are blind and naked ; Jesus in Rev.3:17 describing his church in the last days. In verse 20 Jesus was standing at the door of HIS church , trying to get in. He was on the outside!


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

> In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> 
> 10 percent of your total income is a Christian thing.



kosh is correct:


> *Hebrews 7:2*
> To him* also *_Abraham_ apportioned a _tithe_ of everything. His name ... _Abraham_ gave _Melchizedek_ a tenth of everything he had captured.


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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Except he wasn't.   He was talking to *individuals, *not congregations, not bricks and mortar:



> Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.  Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.



Any_*one.  *_
that_* person
*_
He goes on:
To the_* one *_who is victorious...

And it feels great to be co-heir with Christ.  Crowns and gems and  fresh white robes and grace and love.   Can't beat it.  

His church in the last days, are those individuals that follow Christ.  If you think he was talking about Ephesus, we had better get our shovels out, cause that church has been buried under foot for a long long time.   No wonder He can't get in!


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## Clement (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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There is nothing quite so pathetic as someone who is so clueless they don't know how clueless they are, and I am looking at you, son.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
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Hey , while your looking , look at this :

The Origin of Tithing


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## koshergrl (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
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Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
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From the "Age of Reason" site, where, if you go to their definition of the Gospel, you are directed to purchase a DVD for $12.

*"The Gospel*

                       What it is, and is not

"This DVD is a foundational teaching for all believers, new or old. Those who want to learn why God established the continuum of animal blood sacrifices that culminated in Jesus Christ the savior.

"The DVD covers the _rudimentary gospel _in the Old Testament, Cain and Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses and the fulfillment of the Passover lamb in Jesus Christ. Apologetic Answers are given to those who add to the gospel by using works from the old Testament laws and baptism. It will help you understand the differences of law and grace. The Old testament laws, the Sabbath, and baptism are seen as works. This will give you better understanding of  the cults who claim Christianity but do not accept the gospel of grace, which is the new covenant and instead do works.

"This is a good evangelistic tool to reach those who are unsaved that do not understand the bible or the gospel message. We answer why religion, with its rituals and ceremonies and mans works do not give you any merit before God and why the gospel is the only solution to mans condition of sin.

1 hour 20 minutes long

*US includes postage*

$12:00"

Is your link to this ludicrous site supposed to signify something other than your own stupidity? I see you like to just post links and say "there ya go" without actually iterating the point you think you're making, or citing the pertinent verbage.

In other words, you're a fucking idiot.
The Gospel


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
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Explain to us why  you are reading what an idiot has to say ;  and why  others are reading it?


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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Why has an idiot received over 4,700 views??


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## koshergrl (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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I give everybody a chance. But if they prove they have nothing of value to say, I ignore them.
You've proven you have nothing of value to say.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
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The views on my threads speak different than your observation.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Vasuderatorrent, if you don't mind me asking, Why keep your atheism a secret?



Why did you ask?


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## The Irish Ram (Sep 8, 2016)

Just curious.  Atheists are usually outspoken about their beliefs.   Were you at one time a believer?


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## Clement (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
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It's like staring at an accident on the freeway. You know you shouldn't, but you can't help it.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 9, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Just curious.  Atheists are usually outspoken about their beliefs.   Were you at one time a believer?



Yes.  Rock solid faith.  I remember believing in August 2011 that I was exactly where God wanted me to be.  I'm not sure when it all disappeared again.

I have been in a pattern that shifts every several years.  I have too many reasons to believe that God exists and really likes me.  Lots of things have happened to me that I can't explain.  I can't explain quantam physics or brain surgery either.

It may sound odd but my sin of choice is idolatry.  I'm not talking about the ambiguous type of idolatry that preachers use to make you feel guilty.  I'm talking about blatantly obvious full blown idolatry.  The Bible says to Flee idolatry.  I embraced it and enjoyed it for a little while.  I have even created my own tangible religion.  If you look up Vasudera Torrent on google then you will see what I created.


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## kjw47 (Sep 9, 2016)

tyroneweaver said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Jesus taught a parable about the tithe---  He said--the Pharisees all gave a tithe, a little old woman gave 2 small coins( out of the heart) -- Jesus said she gave more than all the tithes combined. Jesus wants out of the heart, not a written tithe law--The Israelites are under Law--Christians are not under those written laws. We are under the new covenant = LOVE.


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## hadit (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Jesus explicitly states that many will be rejected by God, and the Holy Spirit does not disagree with Him.  Your problem is with God, not with any man.


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## hadit (Sep 9, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> tyroneweaver said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...


Precisely.  I don't ask my wife for a set of rules to live by, I find out what she likes and do my best to make sure she has it.  The problem with a legalistic understanding of the tithe is that it becomes a ceiling, when in reality it should be a floor.


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## Papageorgio (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Let me know when you start peeling off layers of religion because so far this thread has been a waste of time.


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## Mickiel (Sep 9, 2016)

Papageorgio said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...




A waste of time? 297 replies and over 4,974 views , including your views ; I don't understand your complaint of it being a waste of time? So I peel off your obvious blindness to this thread ;keep coming.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why has an idiot received over 4,700 views??



Perhaps you were wrong about his/her idiocy.


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## tyroneweaver (Sep 9, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> tyroneweaver said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...


A couple of your proteges came to my door the other day. The one wanted to argue with me, and the other one had the hots for me I could tell. She even asked for my name.


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## tyroneweaver (Sep 9, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> tyroneweaver said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...


Are you sure she was giving a tithe, and not a Temple tax?  An alm,  or an offering?


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## kjw47 (Sep 9, 2016)

tyroneweaver said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > tyroneweaver said:
> ...





Most have this ruling their thoughts--Jeremiah 17:9-- the heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it?


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## tyroneweaver (Sep 9, 2016)

hadit said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > tyroneweaver said:
> ...


 You're accepting the interpretation of one that doesn't even know who Jehovah was in the Bible?????
my my.


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## hadit (Sep 9, 2016)

tyroneweaver said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...


I'm accepting an affirmation of an interpretation that I accepted long ago.  IOW, I thought that way before.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 9, 2016)

tyroneweaver said:


> A couple of your proteges came to my door the other day. The one wanted to argue with me, and the other one had the hots for me I could tell. She even asked for my name.



What are protégés?  I'm not understanding this story.


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## Mickiel (Sep 9, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




You can't help but read ;  why thank you! I knew I was not banging on your head for nothing.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 9, 2016)

You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?

Christians using the OT as a way to justify their current beliefs.  Got news for you Christians, the OT isn't a Christian book, it's a Jewish one.  The first 5 books are the Torah, and the rest of the OT is a history of the Israelites, with the last 2 books being a collection of proverbs and hymns. 

And by the way..................Leviticus is actually a manual for the Levites (Jewish priests) to tell them how to act and what the rules were for serving in the Temple.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 9, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> Jesus taught a parable about the tithe---  He said--the Pharisees all gave a tithe, a little old woman gave 2 small coins( out of the heart) -- Jesus said she gave more than all the tithes combined. Jesus wants out of the heart, not a written tithe law--The Israelites are under Law--Christians are not under those written laws. We are under the new covenant = LOVE.



What kind of proteges do you have?


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 9, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?
> 
> Christians using the OT as a way to justify their current beliefs.  Got news for you Christians, the OT isn't a Christian book, it's a Jewish one.  The first 5 books are the Torah, and the rest of the OT is a history of the Israelites, with the last 2 books being a collection of proverbs and hymns.
> 
> And by the way..................Leviticus is actually a manual for the Levites (Jewish priests) to tell them how to act and what the rules were for serving in the Temple.



I think the Council of Nicea disagrees with you.  39 Old Testament books were canonized as scripture.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 9, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?
> ...



Doesn't change the fact that it was still originally written by the Jews, no matter how you try to dress it up. 

Matter of fact, I've found certain religious shows to be very helpful when it's a Rabbi or Jewish scholar who is directly translating the OT from Hebrew to English for you, as well as the nuances in the Hebrew language that they can point out.

I recommend "Hidden in the Hebrew with Uri Harrel" on GLC channel if you have the time.


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## Mickiel (Sep 9, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?
> 
> Christians using the OT as a way to justify their current beliefs.  Got news for you Christians, the OT isn't a Christian book, it's a Jewish one.  The first 5 books are the Torah, and the rest of the OT is a history of the Israelites, with the last 2 books being a collection of proverbs and hymns.
> 
> And by the way..................Leviticus is actually a manual for the Levites (Jewish priests) to tell them how to act and what the rules were for serving in the Temple.




It is funny , and its sad. The pride of Christianity creates lies that are stronger than scripture itself.


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## Papageorgio (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



So you equate replies and views as you peeling layers off religion? Lol!


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## Clement (Sep 9, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?
> 
> Christians using the OT as a way to justify their current beliefs.  Got news for you Christians, the OT isn't a Christian book, it's a Jewish one.  The first 5 books are the Torah, and the rest of the OT is a history of the Israelites, with the last 2 books being a collection of proverbs and hymns.
> 
> And by the way..................Leviticus is actually a manual for the Levites (Jewish priests) to tell them how to act and what the rules were for serving in the Temple.



You know what I find funny? People who somehow think Jesus was opposed to the Jewish system of things.


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## Mickiel (Sep 9, 2016)

Papageorgio said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...




Yes.


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## Papageorgio (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Okay then, at least we know what we are dealing with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mickiel (Sep 9, 2016)

" We" , you speak as if you speak for others?


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## Papageorgio (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> " We" , you speak as if you speak for others?



It is pretty obvious what you are. I guess you can't or won't see it.


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## Campbell (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Who gives a phiddler's phuck about you or George Soros?


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## kjw47 (Sep 10, 2016)

tyroneweaver said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...




YHWH(Jehovah) = The only true living God.


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## kjw47 (Sep 10, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus taught a parable about the tithe---  He said--the Pharisees all gave a tithe, a little old woman gave 2 small coins( out of the heart) -- Jesus said she gave more than all the tithes combined. Jesus wants out of the heart, not a written tithe law--The Israelites are under Law--Christians are not under those written laws. We are under the new covenant = LOVE.
> ...





Jehovah witness-- The ones carrying on the work Jesus began. House to house, city to city, with the good news of Gods coming kingdom.


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## kjw47 (Sep 10, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?
> ...




There are a lot of important truths and facts about the true God and his will in the ot. In fact Jesus taught---Man does not live by bread alone but by every utterance from God=OT-NT.

Here is an interesting fact that proves many religions that are claiming to be Christian as ones who do not know God or his will

Deuteronomy 30:19----  God set before all--LIFE or DEATH--nothing more. Both are everlasting.


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

Campbell said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > Campbell said:
> ...



In the first place, you are full of dog feces, the US Government owns more property than the Church does. In the second place, if you are so worried about starving children why don't you get off your dead ass and do something about it instead of posting ignorant drivel here?


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...



The single biggest complaint I get from secularists is about being awakened by Jehovah's Witnesses on Saturday mornings. They think you guys are Christians and they blame it on the rest of us.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?
> ...



There are lots of similarities.  After all Jesus was Jewish.  Christ just hated the corruption of the formal organization.


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## kjw47 (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > vasuderatorrent said:
> ...




The JW,s are the real Christians--carrying on the work, Jesus started when he sent his followers out by two, house to house, city to city, teaching --the good news of Gods kingdom. That work doesn't stop until the end. Matthew 24:14)-- the most important work a mortal can ever do.


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## kjw47 (Sep 10, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




Not his one true religion. Jesus spoke to 7 congregations in revelation--proving he has a religion on earth. As well promised to appoint his faithful and discreet slave( real teachers) over all of his belongings( flock)


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 10, 2016)

You know, God is too big to be contained in just one religious dogma.


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## Mickiel (Sep 10, 2016)

Jesus has no religion on earth ,  religion is man's effort to reach God ,  the  church to come will be God reaching out to man.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 10, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Jesus has no religion on earth ,  religion is man's effort to reach God ,  the  church to come will be God reaching out to man.



Actually, religion is a way for man to try to claim God's power, by saying that they are the ones who speak for Him.


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## Mickiel (Sep 10, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus has no religion on earth ,  religion is man's effort to reach God ,  the  church to come will be God reaching out to man.
> ...




Correct.


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



What he disliked were hypocritical con men like the one who started this thread...and you. We have met before, I know you.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 10, 2016)

Hey Clement, if Jesus hated hypocritical con men, what do you think He'd say about Trump?


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...



JWs are pagan, gnostic con men who don't even worship the God of the Bible or his son.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...



Got news for you Clement, most Christians don't follow the teachings of Jesus, they just cherry pick the verses they want to try to prove their point (which is usually wrong).


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey Clement, if Jesus hated hypocritical con men, what do you think He'd say about Trump?



What does Trump have to do with this?


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> We have met before, I know you.



congratulations


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Clement, if Jesus hated hypocritical con men, what do you think He'd say about Trump?
> ...



You said hypocritical con men who were capable of duping large amounts of people.  I naturally thought of Trump.


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

I


ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...





ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...





ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...





ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...



And I have news for you, everybody who claims that wouldn't even know the difference.


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



I see, you're just a leftist troll with nothing of substance to say.


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus has no religion on earth ,  religion is man's effort to reach God ,  the  church to come will be God reaching out to man.
> ...



I don't think you know what "religion" is...


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...



There ya go with the generalizations again.  Okay, what would Jesus say about Creflo Dollar, Josh Hagee, or any of the other mega church preachers who claim to speak for Him while lining their pockets.


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## Mickiel (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 10, 2016)

Clement said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Enlighten me then, because of all the Christian religions that I've had to endure, ALL of them claimed to be the one true church to speak for God and that I had to believe as they did or I was going to hell. 

Pretty heavy trip for a child who was orphaned at 8, and lived with 5 different families in foster care.  Especially when each place that I went to live was a different religion.  I've been indoctrinated by Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Northern and Southern Baptists, and all though they all used the same book (KJV), they all had different interpretations of it, and how it said to behave.  Some said you can drink, some said you can't.  Some said you could dance, some didn't, etc. etc. etc.


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



Number one, those are all part of the Christian religion. For someone who claims to have been "indoctrinated", you didn't learn much. 

Things like drinking and dancing are traditions that some observe, some do not. It's okay, really. The only real requirement for being Christian is that you have to believe in the Christ, who we refer to a Jesus. There's no need to make it more complicated than it already is.


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## Clement (Sep 10, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



I am more interested in what he says about those who follow his commands.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




Are you kidding , Christians have complicated Christianity far more than any religion!


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## kjw47 (Sep 11, 2016)

Clement said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...



100% undeniable facts=  From Moses on up until this very day--the Israelites served, taught and worshipped-a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)-- The God Jesus, served and worshipped when he attended the synagogues and temples. The God Jesus taught--John 20:17, Rev 3:12, John 4:22-24


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

The Christian tithe is a total  rip off of believers money.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe is a total  rip off of believers money.



Some people can't afford to tithe because they have too many bills.  I have never heard of anybody that can't afford to pay their bills because they pay too much in tithes.

That's just an observation I have made.  I am interested to hear alternate observations.

Tithing is a great practice.  I am an atheist and I still tithe.  I have done with every dime I have ever had since I was 11 years old.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian tithe is a total  rip off of believers money.
> ...




Well here we go again . How many examples do you need  to wake you up this time?

My mother tithes 10 percent — but she can’t make her house payments


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Did the mother miss her house payment?  It sounds like her daughter paid it for her.  I never heard the mom say she couldn't pay her bills.  Did you hear her say that?


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 11, 2016)

Some people have $12 in their bank account and feel they are doing just fine.  Some people think that person is struggling.

Some people have $15,000 in their savings and account and think they are doing just fine.  Some people think that person is struggling.

The story you posted was not from the tither's perspective.  If someone paid my mortgage for me and I believed in God then I would assume God was taking care of me.  We really need to hear the mother's side of the story and the banker's side of the story.  Has she ever missed a payment on her house?  That's important information to have.

Besides I didn't say it never happened.  I said I have never heard a person say that they can't afford to pay their bills because they tithe.  This article doesn't change that.  I still have never heard a person say that they can't afford to pay their bills because they tithe.  I read what the daughter said and I read the response.  Did you read the whole thing yourself?


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

The concept of giving is not wrong, but the church enforced giving if your not able to is wrong. Do you understand that??


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The concept of giving is not wrong, but the church enforced giving if your not able to is wrong. Do you understand that??



Enforced?  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only organization that I know that enforces tithing.

I have went years without giving one single penny to my church.  I'm still a member.

I'm not even sure the Mormons are that strict about it.  They just won't give you a Temple Recommend if you ever need to attend a wedding or something.  I don't think you get excommunicated for it.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The concept of giving is not wrong, but the church enforced giving if your not able to is wrong. Do you understand that??



I personally view the concept of being unable to tithe as an impossibility.  If you make $10 per year then you sacrifice $1.  You have $10.  You can afford to give away 1 of them.  The quality of your life doesn't really change that much.  No matter how poor you are you should still be aware of your fellow man that needs your help.  Nobody is too lowly that they deserve to be a selfish prick.  This is especially true in Christianity.

Did you know that the working poor are the most generous demographic in the United States?


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The concept of giving is not wrong, but the church enforced giving if your not able to is wrong. Do you understand that??
> ...



A lot of Christian ministers feel exactly as you do. In fact they teach their members that God will curse them if they don't give that little 10 percent.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> A lot of Christian ministers feel exactly as you do. In fact they teach their members that God will curse them if they don't give that little 10 percent.



God won't curse them but they will suffer financially for it.  However, they can always burn 10% of their income or give it to a Satanic organization to get the same benefit.  They don't have to give it to the church.  Giving 10% of  your income forces you to behave with the remaining 90%.  It's a fiscal straight jacket.

Corrupt and insincere pastors doesn't negate the benefits of tithing.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of Christian ministers feel exactly as you do. In fact they teach their members that God will curse them if they don't give that little 10 percent.
> ...




This thread is not against tithing ,its against the Christians using the tithing system to rip  its members off. I mean I welcome your need to rail against anything , but this thread is specific.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> This thread is not against tithing ,its against the Christians using the tithing system to rip  its members off.



That is bad.


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## Mickiel (Sep 12, 2016)

The purse of Christianity has been suckered , now they want to sucker the purse of the world.


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## Mickiel (Sep 12, 2016)

Christianity wants a three way relationship with you , God and your purse.


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## Mickiel (Sep 12, 2016)

10 ways religions take your money;

10 ways religious groups steal public money


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## Mickiel (Sep 14, 2016)

The Rich Man and Lazarus and Hell


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## Mickiel (Sep 15, 2016)

The Tithe is Illegal


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## Mickiel (Sep 18, 2016)

And now we come down to yet another Sunday ,and many Christians will be robbed in broad day light by their churches that accuse them of robbing God.


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## hobelim (Sep 18, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> And now we come down to yet another Sunday ,and many Christians will be robbed in broad day light by their churches that accuse them of robbing God.


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## Mickiel (Sep 19, 2016)

Christianity puts a cost on everything ,even eternal free life.

What's wrong with them?


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christianity puts a cost on everything ,even eternal free life.
> 
> What's wrong with them?



They are out to get you.  You better hide.


----------



## hadit (Sep 19, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know what I find really funny about this whole discussion?
> 
> Christians using the OT as a way to justify their current beliefs.  Got news for you Christians, the OT isn't a Christian book, it's a Jewish one.  The first 5 books are the Torah, and the rest of the OT is a history of the Israelites, with the last 2 books being a collection of proverbs and hymns.
> 
> And by the way..................Leviticus is actually a manual for the Levites (Jewish priests) to tell them how to act and what the rules were for serving in the Temple.


Yeah, we knew that.


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

The horrid pride of Christianity must claim the bible as its own , they are too " Hollier than thou" to see it any other way.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel,  Will you do me a favor?  Will you post about 75 more posts in this thread?


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel,  Will you do me a favor?  Will you post about 75 more posts in this thread?




Are you jealous of the thread?  And explain to me why you are requesting about only 75 ,  why limit me , may I do 600 more?


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel,  Will you do me a favor?  Will you post about 75 more posts in this thread?
> ...



I say to push for an even  1,000


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > vasuderatorrent said:
> ...




Why not?  That is just envy and jealousy coming out.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Hey...........all I'm saying is that if someone tries to limit you, show them you are capable of more than twice their perceived limit.

Kinda why I rode a bicycle from Jacksonville FL to Newport RI in 12 days (with 2 days for a rest stop).


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




Stunning bike ride.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Yeah............that was the longest one I ever did.  Got the idea from a friend of mine who was also a monster cyclist who biked from Memphis to Norfolk, and when I transferred from Memphis to Jacksonville, I swore to myself that I would ride a bike to each duty station from then on.  Jacksonville to Newport RI was the second one, and the last one was a short one from Newport RI to Norfolk VA.

Still ride a bit now and again.  I've got a Lemond Zurich with Campagnolo Chorus ergo power drivetrain and brakes, Mavic Cosmic aero rims and a Selle Italia titanium saddle with Speedplay pedals (the ones that look like lollipops).


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




Goodness , that bike sounds like a space ship. I have never rode a bike past 5 miles.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Not quite a space ship, but she's plenty fast.  I've been clocked at 66 mph going downhill, 53 mph drafting behind a dump truck, and 48 mph on my own for a sprint.  Average cruising speed when I was in my early 30's was around 23 mph, but now that I'm 52, it's more around 17 mph.


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




Truly amazing , I think I would die of a heart attack if I was going 66 mph on a bike. I'm 61 , but when I was 30, my cruising speed was around  7 mph.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Well, I didn't start off that fast, it took me about a year and a half of constant riding of 20 or more miles per day (eventually I was averaging 50 to 100/day), as well as having a couple of good friends who pushed me just as hard as I pushed them.

One day, when I was stationed with VFA-131 Wildcats in Cecil Field FL, my Command Master Chief saw me coming into work an asked me to step into his office for a second.

I spent the next few seconds wondering what I'd been caught for this time.

He then turned to me and said "Petty Officer Murphy, I have just one question.........how the f**k do you push that thing so fast?  I followed you out of the gate last night and clocked you at 53 mph for the next 2 1/2 miles.  How do you do it?"

My reply?  Practice and really big gear inches on your drivetrain.


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## Clement (Sep 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



What a bunch of BS. How many is "a lot"?


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## Clement (Sep 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> 10 ways religions take your money;
> 
> 10 ways religious groups steal public money



As soon as I saw that this was from Salon I knew it was bullshit.


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## Mickiel (Sep 21, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > 10 ways religions take your money;
> ...





I just can't understand the need to curse at people???


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## Mickiel (Sep 23, 2016)

With the death of Jesus ,  all ceremonial  codes that belonged to the Jews  were nailed to the cross and buried, including tithing. Christians don't want those things buried, they want to keep them alive to increase bondage on the people. They want to hold "Decrees and debts" against the people.

Just read some of their threads here ; its all there , you just have to see it.


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## Mickiel (Sep 24, 2016)

They take your money , they take your mind ,and if you don't act right , Christianity thinks they can take away your salvation. You know ,disfellowship you. Their counting the money ,not the souls.


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## Mickiel (Sep 25, 2016)

In Detroit where I live , now people are aware enough ,  and tired enough to challenge these greedy prosperity ministers ;but this is the first time I saw them go into an actual service and protest ; 

Prosperous pastor fights back against activist accusations


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## Mickiel (Sep 26, 2016)

What does God need with  money? See the deception is that churches are teaching you that they represent God , as if they are God. So they invade your mind and want you to thing that if you desire to serve God , then you must align yourself  and your money with them ;
and if you don't then you cannot serve God , which is ridiculous.


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## Mickiel (Sep 27, 2016)

Notice this court deposition where they caught this Christian prosperity minister milking his church like cows ;


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## Mickiel (Sep 28, 2016)

Look at all these Christian pastors caught up in scandals;

List of Christian evangelist scandals | Break These Endless Lies

Its just a shame ; a crying shame what these Christians leaders have done and continue to do ; and they  keep supporting them like blind sheep.


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## Mickiel (Sep 29, 2016)

Notice the sheer amount of money involved in the Christian Tithe scandal:
The Annual $34 Billion Church Scandal

34 billion dollars , and this was in 2011;  this is some serious dough!


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## Mickiel (Oct 1, 2016)

My goodness ,look at the 10 richest pastors in the world ;

Top 10 Richest Pastors in the World - 2016 List Updated - The Gazette Review

These jokers are making some serious money. The message they are preaching is tithing magnified! They milk their congregation and society around them of so much money in the name of God and planting " Seeds",  its ridiculous!  And it may well be , and if not be , then be the beginning of  the church Jesus described as the final stage of HIS DECEIVED CHURCH! Jesus was describing HIS churches in Revelations chapter 2-3. Not some other worldly churches ,HIS churches were seriously  deceived!

And in Revelations 3:17-18 that is a prosperity ministry! According to Jesus this church era is the final stage of HIS churches apostasy! They get wrapped up in this distorted money message ; their ministers get totally deceived with the spirit of this stunning greed.

Rev. 3:17 " Because you say I am rich and increased with goods and don't need anything ,  and you DON'T KNOW ,( notice they do NOT know this condition they are in. Meaning they are totally deceived! Completely  unaware of the conscious deception of the way they are believing and worshipping Christ and God!),they don't know -- , that they are wretched , miserable, poor , BLIND and  naked!"

They don't KNOW how they are. Meaning they can actually  read these scriptures I posted ,  read what I am saying , and totally miss it!It's  just NOT in their consciousness.


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## Mickiel (Oct 1, 2016)

More truth about tithing from Pimp preacher;

How Tithing Is The Gateway Drug To Every Church Scam!


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## Mickiel (Oct 2, 2016)

I wonder why the Christians won't join me in thread?

Is it something I have said?


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## Mickiel (Oct 3, 2016)

Tithing belonged to the Old Testament  era where a taxation system was needed to support the poor and a special priesthood  that had been set apart. With the coming of Jesus there has been a change of the law ;  the old has been set aside and  rendered obsolete by the new - Heb. 7:12-18 ;  8 : 13. The Christian ministry ignores this new covenant.


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## Mickiel (Oct 4, 2016)

And this pastor caught stealing from his church ; from "The Christian Post";

NYC Pastor Caught Stealing Money From Church Offering 9 Times Claims He Wasn't Paid Enough


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## Mickiel (Oct 5, 2016)

Their coming after your salvation and your money ; trying to control both.


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## Avatar4321 (Oct 5, 2016)

God made a promise through His prophet Malachi that if we paid an honest tithe. He would open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing on us so great that we would barely have room to receive it.

Law of tithing is simple. A tenth of your increase. And its between us and God. 

I can tell you that I know for myself that God will keep this promise. He has provided for me and my family through miraculous means again and again. And the beauty of this is you don't have to take my word for it. Commit to paying an honest tithe and pay it and He will bless you.


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## Mickiel (Oct 5, 2016)

Avatar4321 said:


> God made a promise through His prophet Malachi that if we paid an honest tithe. He would open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing on us so great that we would barely have room to receive it.
> 
> Law of tithing is simple. A tenth of your increase. And its between us and God.
> 
> I can tell you that I know for myself that God will keep this promise. He has provided for me and my family through miraculous means again and again. And the beauty of this is you don't have to take my word for it. Commit to paying an honest tithe and pay it and He will bless you.




God will bless who he wants, and they don't have to pay for it.


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## Avatar4321 (Oct 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > God made a promise through His prophet Malachi that if we paid an honest tithe. He would open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing on us so great that we would barely have room to receive it.
> ...



You think God is going to pour out His choicest blessings on those who are selfish and ungrateful with the stewardship God gave them? Its this type of hypocrisy that Malachi was preaching against.


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## Mickiel (Oct 5, 2016)

Avatar4321 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...




Selfish and ungrateful people need God's love too. And you Christians can't block God from giving them the mercy they need.

You must forgive me ,I am not used to Christians posting on my threads ; they generally avoid me ;  and for good reason. Some pass through but never suffer long ;they seem to sense that their way is just not my way. They know I can see through them.


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## Mudda (Oct 6, 2016)

God has a lot of overhead, so please fill the collection plate, god can't make any of his own.


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

Mudda said:


> God has a lot of overhead, so please fill the collection plate, god can't make any of his own.




God does not need money , its the Christians that need money.


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## Mudda (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > God has a lot of overhead, so please fill the collection plate, god can't make any of his own.
> ...


So god won't share any of his dough with his followers? What a fucking cheapskate.


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




God does not have any money. And I hold no interest in your cursing mannerisms. I understand that you are addicted to using foul mouthed language , for your own personal joy , ;

I request again that you do not use it when your having speaks with me.

I mean if its possible.


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## hadit (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I wonder why the Christians won't join me in thread?
> 
> Is it something I have said?


Oh, we'll join you all right.  We condemn those pastors who profit from their congregations and preach feel good messages but not the Word to a fallen world.  We condemn those who seek self glorification and riches at the expense of those they allow to fall into the pit.  They already have their reward and will answer to Christ for the ones they lost.

We also, however, commend the multitude of pastors who toil in anonymity, living simple lives and serving their congregations.  We also commend those who joyously give of their own wealth to support the earthly work of the Church.  Their reward multiplies.

We commend the pastors who preach the entire Word and do not shrink from calling their flock to repent.


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## Mudda (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


But god can make money, he made everything in the universe, didn't he? So why doesn't he makes some moolah for the churches? You know why? Because god thinks churches are douche and won't have anything to do with them. He lets them crumble, makes the priests beg like losers... Get the hint already.


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## Mudda (Oct 7, 2016)

Avatar4321 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...


Why, you think god is saving "His choicest blessings" for deluded fakers like mormons?


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why the Christians won't join me in thread?
> ...




Explain what "Their reward multiplies means. "You are suggesting that people who give money to churches are rewarded ;  what is the reward? How does that reward multiply? Is that reward a promise from God? Can you show us in scripture this reward being promised in the NT?


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## hadit (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


First, You are incorrectly trying to restrict the topic only to giving money to churches.  That's not all the giving that God values.

Luke 6:38 


> Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”



God values generosity.  Those who give generously are rewarded in many ways.  Here is Jesus praising the practice of sacrifice and offerings, showing us God's perspective.  Specifically, He says nothing about doing away with the practice.


> Matthew 23:23
> 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.



Jesus specifically praising a person who gives to the temple treasury:
Mark 12:41-44


> 41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.
> 
> 43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”



Now, if you're narrowly harping on whether Christians today are bound by God's law to rigidly give 10% of their increase to their local church, there's not too much to argue about.  And, if your intention is to point out and condemn those pastors who live lavish lifestyles while their congregants suffer, again, not much to argue about.  If, however, as I suspect, your true intention is simply to attack Christianity and you think you are somehow going to make the case that Christians joyfully giving to their Churches is not Scriptural, then you have already failed.


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
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As long as the thread grows I have succeeded.


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## hadit (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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Not when you are shown to be incorrect, you have not.


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
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I could care less what Christians show , all that matters to me is what I show. Welcome to thread , see how it grows.


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## hadit (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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When you're growing weeds, that's all you get.  Enjoy your weeds.


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




I am not the only one enjoying it ; welcome to thread , see how many are interested.

The Origin of Tithing


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## Mudda (Oct 7, 2016)

I take money from the collection plate. Why, was I not suppose to?


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 7, 2016)

You know, when God led the Hebrews out of Egypt to Israel, He didn't need money to feed them or take care of them.  He sent them manna at night, and provided clothes that didn't wear out. 

God doesn't give you what you want necessarily, but He will give you what you need.


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, when God led the Hebrews out of Egypt to Israel, He didn't need money to feed them or take care of them.  He sent them manna at night, and provided clothes that didn't wear out.
> 
> God doesn't give you what you want necessarily, but He will give you what you need.





ABikerSailor said:


> You know, when God led the Hebrews out of Egypt to Israel, He didn't need money to feed them or take care of them.  He sent them manna at night, and provided clothes that didn't wear out.
> 
> God doesn't give you what you want necessarily, but He will give you what you need.




God does  not have any money. There is no money in heaven. But your right , God does not need money to bless people.


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## Mickiel (Oct 8, 2016)

You  are cursed with a curse!

Are we cursed if we do not tithe? - NeverThirsty


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> You  are cursed with a curse!
> 
> Are we cursed if we do not tithe? - NeverThirsty



Actually, we were cursed when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden after they didn't take responsibility for eating the apple.


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## hobelim (Oct 8, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > You  are cursed with a curse!
> ...


 

How many of you are there,  accursed one?


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## Mickiel (Oct 8, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




In this thread there are 11,628  different views of me ;  welcome to thread , see how it grows.


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## Mickiel (Oct 8, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > You  are cursed with a curse!
> ...




They did not need to take responsibility , God wanted them to eat the fruit.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Actually, God wanted them to answer directly to His question of did you eat the fruit, rather than blame someone else.  Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent.  Neither of them took responsibility for their actions.

Seems to be one of the things that gets a lot of people in this world into trouble by the way.


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## Mickiel (Oct 8, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
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I don't think God was all that concerned with how they answered him ,  God wanted them to get wiped out by the serpent, because he was creating the need for Christ to come to earth.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Actually, many Jewish scholars (remember.........Genesis is one of their books), would disagree with you.  They would say that we would be living in Paradise right now if they had only admitted to what they did. 

Christ came to earth because of what Adam and Eve did.


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## Mickiel (Oct 9, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
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God did not want humanity living in paradise , until we all lived in the flesh and sin first.


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## hadit (Oct 10, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


That is not indicated by the Scriptures.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 10, 2016)

You know, we call God our Father, and we know that parents always want what is best for their kids.

However..................when they get in the liquor cabinet and trash the house, you've gotta take firm measures.

Adam and Eve ate the apple (got in the liquor cabinet), but wouldn't admit their part in doing so.


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## Mickiel (Oct 12, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, we call God our Father, and we know that parents always want what is best for their kids.
> 
> However..................when they get in the liquor cabinet and trash the house, you've gotta take firm measures.
> 
> Adam and Eve ate the apple (got in the liquor cabinet), but wouldn't admit their part in doing so.




Who created the apple? Who let the serpent into the garden? Who did not protect the young couple?

God.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 12, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know, we call God our Father, and we know that parents always want what is best for their kids.
> ...



Actually, according to some rabbis (remember, Genesis is part of the OT, and therefore a Jewish book), the reason the serpent was let in was to test Adam and Eve.  

As far as who created the apple?  Well, if your kids get into your liquor cabinet, who brought the liquor into the house?  That's right..........the parents.


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## keepitreal (Oct 12, 2016)

Deceiving followers with the 'sow ur love seed' mumbo jumbo,
is perpetrated by false teachers, using false doctrine.
They are not ministers of/for God & Christ.

They are able to deceive people, for personal gain because of greed,
because the people buying into this have put their trust in a man,
instead of trusting God and relying on His Word.

If a believer does not take the time to read or study Gods Word,
then they are unable to discern false teachings.

You can not buy your way into Heaven
You can not buy your way out of hell
You can not buy blessings
You can not buy salvation
You can not buy forgiveness
You can not buy answered prayers
You can not buy His Grace
You can not buy His Mercy
You can not buy His Love

You can not use money to buy & obtain,
that which, He has already freely given us, through faith,
because Christ sowed the ultimate love seed....His life


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## Mickiel (Oct 12, 2016)

Hell is just as much mombo jumbo as false money grabbers in ministry.

Christianity is loaded with false teachings.


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## Mickiel (Oct 13, 2016)

Christianity has a play book ;  take as much money from people as they can. Sell them the Kingdom.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christianity has a play book ;  take as much money from people as they can. Sell them the Kingdom.


You're just cheap.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christianity has a play book ;  take as much money from people as they can. Sell them the Kingdom.
> ...



Welcome to thread , see how it grows.


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## Mickiel (Oct 16, 2016)

The wallet of Christianity is growing ; their getting greedy and can't help it.


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## Mudda (Oct 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The wallet of Christianity is growing ; their getting greedy and can't help it.


And you want your piece of the pie?


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## Mickiel (Oct 16, 2016)

Listen;

The Tithe is Illegal


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Listen;
> 
> The Tithe is Illegal



I have a solution.  Quit tithing.


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## Mickiel (Oct 16, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Listen;
> ...




But see tithing is similar to giving;  that's where they seduce the believers .  The believer wants to give , but tithing is obligation to give. Giving should be willful, not from obligation.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 17, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Listen;
> ...



That's no solution, because when the other self righteous Christians see that you don't put anything in the plate, they will look at you with cold stares and talk about how cheap you are behind your back.

The better solution would be quit going to church.


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## hadit (Oct 17, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Or, like our church does it, make online giving the primary way people give.  That way, no one knows how much or how little anyone else gives.  Isn't it wonderful when solutions are found that eliminate little gripes like that?


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## Mudda (Oct 17, 2016)

hadit said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > vasuderatorrent said:
> ...


The only thing to do is to take money from the plate. Eventually, they'll stop passing it to you.


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## hadit (Oct 17, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


In our church it's usually empty because most everyone gives online.  They'll still pass it to you and you would just look foolish.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 17, 2016)

Give a million dollars to a poor guy in your neighborhood then you don't have to worry about tithing for the rest of your life.  "As much as you have done it unto the least of them my brethren, you have done it unto me."  or something like that.


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## Mudda (Oct 17, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


You mean everyone SAYS they give online. That's a good trick, I'll use that next time.


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## hadit (Oct 17, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


The Church budget seems to be in good order, so yeah, they do.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 17, 2016)

Mudda said:


> You mean everyone SAYS they give online. That's a good trick, I'll use that next time.



Next time what?  Do people really ask you why you aren't giving?  I wouldn't be surprised but I have never encountered a church like that.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 17, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You mean everyone SAYS they give online. That's a good trick, I'll use that next time.
> ...



Christians are more passive aggressive than that.  They won't ask you directly why you aren't giving, but they will give you cold stares, as well as whisper about how cheap you are behind your back.  I know, I've been in churches like that.  Matter of fact, my foster parents made sure that I, as well as all the other kids in the family, had a couple of bucks to throw in, because they didn't want to be embarrassed.  

However.................Christian tithing beats Mormon tithing, because the Bishop will actually go over how much you made that year with you and the church will demand 10 percent of what you earned.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 17, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



I have been an extremely generous person my whole life.  I guess stares don't phase me.  I don't create ridiculous illusions about people talking behind my back.  There were years that I didn't give to the church because the pastor's salary was five times what mine was.  I gave money to people around me.  I have always gave away 10% of my income but rarely to the church.   Stares don't phase me besides I can't read minds.  They could be staring at me because they hate my shoes.  There are millions of reasons to be paranoid and self conscious if you are determined enough to feel hated.

Nobody is required by law to attend a certain church.  Where I live there are about 30 churches within a one mile span.  The tithing thing is a non issue.  If you hate giving then don't give.  Problem solved.  You get to keep your cash and nobody goes to jail.

Quit crying like a little bitch.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 17, 2016)

So you're generous and don't care about the stares.  

Didn't say anything about you or what you think about stares.

Just told you my experiences with a Baptist church in Frenchtown MT that operated that way.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 18, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> So you're generous and don't care about the stares.
> 
> Didn't say anything about you or what you think about stares.
> 
> Just told you my experiences with a Baptist church in Frenchtown MT that operated that way.



Just use 10% of your income to put a homeless guy up in a hotel for a night or two.  The hell with the stares and the high paid preachers.

Just because the church is run by scam artist doesn't mean you can't tithe to God.


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## Mudda (Oct 18, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You mean everyone SAYS they give online. That's a good trick, I'll use that next time.
> ...


The priest singled me out during mass and said I was a cheapskate. I replied "fuck you, you fat pedophile!" And the whole congregation erupted with applause.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 18, 2016)

Mudda said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



That's rare.  I have never encountered a situation even remotely similar.  It sounds like you handled it well.  Was he a priest?


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## Mickiel (Oct 18, 2016)

notice with me;


How The Richest Religious Leaders Live


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 18, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> notice with me;
> 
> 
> How The Richest Religious Leaders Live



Quit tithing already.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 18, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> notice with me;
> 
> 
> How The Richest Religious Leaders Live



Those guys have nice houses.  Stop giving money to them.  If you are not giving money to them then what is the problem?  Just stop giving them money.  That way you won't have to worry about it anymore.  It's simple as shit unless you are a fucking retard.  STOP GIVING THEM MONEY!  Problem solved.  Shut the fuck up already.  Those guys do have nice houses though.


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## Mickiel (Oct 18, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > notice with me;
> ...




Over 2.2 billion people are giving to them weekly worldwide.  Those people are not retards; they are deceived. Religious deception is very powerful.


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## Mudda (Oct 18, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > vasuderatorrent said:
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Yes. Then one guy stood of crying, HE MOLESTED ME! And some people ran out weeping. Surreal.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 18, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Yes.



Very strange.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 18, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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What more can I say to convince you to stop being deceived?  If you can't figure out what to do by now then I can't help you.  Nobody here can help you either.


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## Mickiel (Oct 18, 2016)

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I did not ask you for your help??


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 19, 2016)

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You haven't shut the hell up either.  I want you to stop being deceived.  Religious deception is very powerful.  I want you to stop being deceived by these scam artist.  Just because you didn't cry for my help I was still able to read between the lies.  I desperately want to help you to stop getting deceived by these monsters that are devouring our children.  STOP GIVING THEM MONEY AND STOP GIVING THEM MONEY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!   I'm not going to tell you again.

If you can't manage to find the will power to stop then give your money to a trusted friend to manage  your finances for you.  This bull shit needs to stop.  You need to stop getting screwed over so bad.  Just stop being so stupid.  Stop giving them money.  That way we can all move on with our lives.  Let us know when you have stopped giving them so much money so that we can start ignoring you.  Have you stopped yet?  Have you stopped yet?  Have you stopped yet?  have you stopped yet?  Well.  Have you?  This bull shit needs to stop.  I am tired of you getting screwed over so bad by these people that are a billion times smarter than you.  They will always be filthy and disgustingly rich.  You can stop that.  You can stop giving them your money.  Do that and then stop thinking about it.  Those disgusting vultures are going to be super duper whuper luper juper quadruper rich.  There is nothing in the world you can do to stop it but you can stop getting screwed so bad.  That is what you need to do.  Once you stop giving them your money then shut the hell up. Thank you for not being stupid any more.  I mean it.  Stop giving those super duper whuper luper juper quadruper rich people your money.  It says so in the Bible.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 19, 2016)

He that oppresseth the poor to increase his *rich*es, and he that giveth to the *rich*, shall surely come to want.  Proverbs 22:16

In other words, "If you give to the rich you will end up in dire straights."   He that giveth to the rich is screwed.


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## Mickiel (Oct 19, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> He that oppresseth the poor to increase his *rich*es, and he that giveth to the *rich*, shall surely come to want.  Proverbs 22:16
> 
> In other words, "If you give to the rich you will end up in dire straights."   He that giveth to the rich is screwed.




Your welcome to thread to have your say. I am honored to be a part of the opportunity for you to do your thing.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
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> > He that oppresseth the poor to increase his *rich*es, and he that giveth to the *rich*, shall surely come to want.  Proverbs 22:16
> ...



Just out of curiosity, how much money have you given to rich preachers in the last 2 years?


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## Mickiel (Oct 19, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


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I have not given money to a church or any other kind of religion in over 23 years. I have not given money to a preacher in over 23 years. So I honestly don't know why you speak to me how you do? The thread is obviously against giving money to churches for the wrong reasons;

I just figured your weird or something??

And I know I can't shut up weird people or make them understand me. So you just kind of get out of their way.


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## vasuderatorrent (Oct 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have not given money to a church or any other kind of religion in over 23 years. I have not given money to a preacher in over 23 years.



This thread makes about as much sense as multiplying a moose by chocolate gasoline balls.  23 years?  You really need to let it go.


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## Mickiel (Oct 19, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have not given money to a church or any other kind of religion in over 23 years. I have not given money to a preacher in over 23 years.
> ...




Well I understand why I am on the thread , but I doubt that I will ever understand why you are here??? But it does not matter , your welcome to express whatever?


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## hadit (Oct 19, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


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Me either.


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## Mickiel (Oct 19, 2016)

The tithe is just another example of how the church and religion will use God , Jesus and the bible to " Suit the means of man", and infatuate the unsuspecting minds of its many believers and followers.  They don't study the bible for themselves, so they get accustomed to letting their leaders do all the thinking.  One little distortion in the year 1800, becomes a giant deception in the year 2000.One misunderstood principle in the year 2000, becomes a church doctrine by the year 2016.  Precept upon precept ,one lying line upon line.

And the people suffer ignorance without even knowing.


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## Mudda (Oct 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> And the people suffer ignorance without even knowing.


Are you looking in a mirror by chance?


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## Mickiel (Oct 19, 2016)

Mudda said:


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I hold no interest in your  sarcasm , but I guess the world needs jokers?


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## Mudda (Oct 19, 2016)

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Nothing but the truth, brutha.


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## Mickiel (Oct 20, 2016)

The Sunday morning stick up :

How passing the plate becomes a 'Sunday morning stickup' - CNN.com


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## Mickiel (Oct 22, 2016)

Remember Rev. 3:17 ,the last deceived church on earth to come ,is a prosperity ministry.


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## Mickiel (Oct 23, 2016)

Today is Sunday ;  are you going to give ten percent because you believe your commanded to give that percentage? You think giving is based on a percentage?

So giving is a numerical thing? What , its a mathematical  thing between you and God?

You think God has a calculator?


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## Mickiel (Oct 23, 2016)

Will you study with me?

Tithing Christian Duty Or Your Pastor’s Greed


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## Mickiel (Oct 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Today is Sunday ;  are you going to give ten percent because you believe your commanded to give that percentage? You think giving is based on a percentage?
> 
> So giving is a numerical thing? What , its a mathematical  thing between you and God?
> 
> You think God has a calculator?



Did you give to a church yesterday? Did you fulfill your " Obligation?"

 Did you escape "The Curse of the tithe?" Did you give out of fear and compulsion?

When are you going to see these things?

What are you doing?


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## Mickiel (Oct 25, 2016)

Hey , did you know that churches are taking credit cards now?

Churches Taking Credit Cards


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## hadit (Oct 25, 2016)

Seems that your thread is running out of steam.


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## Mickiel (Oct 25, 2016)

hadit said:


> Seems that your thread is running out of steam.




Its interesting how you figure a thread with 482 replies and 17,158 views is running out of steam. Explain that to me.

I am pleased with the pace and life of the thread. And you are welcome to it. The Christian tithe is a rip off, its a deformed way to motivate others to give.


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## hadit (Oct 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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When you're reduced to feeble attempts at ridicule to keep a thread going, you're running out of steam.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 25, 2016)

You know, I'm thinking that because of the way religion has bastardized the teachings of Jesus, just about ANYTHING that comes from a church is a rip off.


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## Mickiel (Oct 25, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, I'm thinking that because of the way religion has bastardized the teachings of Jesus, just about ANYTHING that comes from a church is a rip off.



Well in my view a good percentage of it all is..


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
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> > You know, I'm thinking that because of the way religion has bastardized the teachings of Jesus, just about ANYTHING that comes from a church is a rip off.
> ...



You know what I view as the biggest ripoff?  The one the Christians do to God by telling everyone that they alone know what He wants for us (btw.....NOBODY can possibly know the Mind of God), and that if we do as they say, we go to Heaven, but if we don't, we are consigned to an eternity of suffering.

What gives Christians the right to speak for God?  What gives them the right to hand out tickets to Heaven?  I thought only God determined who got in, not those men (and women) who claim to speak for Him.


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## Mickiel (Oct 25, 2016)

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I Agree whole heartedly.  Your absolutely right. The pride of Christianity makes them think they can speak for God , and their history.  That pride makes them selfish and they think they speak for God.

Christianity is a church of God ,  but it is a church in rebellion;  a church deceived.


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## Mudda (Oct 26, 2016)

A bigger rip-off is this thread.


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## hadit (Oct 26, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


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Christians don't determine who lives with God for eternity, and they're not trying to.  All they're doing is pointing out what Scripture says about sin.  And what is your prescription then for when you stand before God and He judges you?


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## hadit (Oct 26, 2016)

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It sounds like you have an obsession with all things Christ.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

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## Mudda (Oct 26, 2016)

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First, prove to us that there is an actual invisible guy that we stand in front of to be judged when we die. Because I have to tell you, it sounds kinda made up.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

Mudda said:


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I hold no interest in conversing with you ; one moment you tear and rip at people ,the next moment you  are insulting them , then the next moment you try to sound reasonable ; in my view that is a sign of instable mouth. Anything could throw up out of it.


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## Mudda (Oct 26, 2016)

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I wasn't talking to you, you fucking noob.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

Mudda said:


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This language is an example of  the human rip off of the English language.  Its the same thing Christians have done with the bible ; they took tithing from the Old Testament , and forced it into the New covenant.

Its like taking perverted words and forcing them into an honest pure language. Now the language is not pure. And we teach our children a perverted language and religion.


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## Mudda (Oct 26, 2016)

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God made everything in the universe, including all the words. Didn't he?


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Your are a predator ; a conversation predator.  Your a conversation vampire , looking and searching everyday which conversation you can suck the life out of.


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## Mudda (Oct 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Says the one with the vampire teeth in your avatar.


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## hadit (Oct 26, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Just like being in the cave, you have to be willing to walk outside.  Simply standing inside and insisting that somebody prove the sun exists while refusing to do something as simple as walking outside is kind of pointless.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 26, 2016)

hadit said:


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If Christians don't determine who gets into Heaven, then why is it most of them sound like they do?  I've been told that I'm going to hell for many things, all the way from drinking, to having sex outside of marriage, to reading dirty magazines, to cussing, etc.  A lot of them have told me that unless I change my life and repent of my sins, I'm going to hell (and some of them are pretty freaking judgemental when they say it).

What is my prescription for standing before God when I'm judged?  Simple......admit where I went wrong, and then tell Him what I've done to correct my behavior since.  In Jewish theology (the daddy of Christianity), they say that a person who has sinned and repented is held higher in Heaven than someone who has never sinned.  Why?  Because God doesn't want drones, and He wants us to use our free will to find out about this world.  If we screw up and then repent and change our behavior, God likes that better, because then He is able to forgive.

I only think things that are "sins" are those things that are outlined in the 10 Commandments, or the 7 Noahide Commandments (both say basically the same thing).  Anything else?  Pretty much fair game, even if it is a vice, but you have to watch out when you play with vices, because that is where the temptation to sin hides.  No average person is looking for ways to murder, steal and lie, because they know those things are bad, but if you follow a vice (such as drinking and you drink too much) you can eventually fall into sin.  Drinking in and of itself isn't a sin, but if you lose your senses and become drunk, you might do something that is sinful. 

Besides..........................Christians aren't the only ones with a lock on "Heaven".  Many other belief systems have some version of Paradise as well, and that means to me that God is too big to be contained in just one religion, dogma, or belief system. 

And..................didn't Jesus Himself say that there were many rooms in His Father's mansion?


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## hadit (Oct 26, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


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1.  Individual actions don't condemn a person to a Godless eternity.  Sin itself does, so those who say you're going to hell because you got drunk are incorrect.  You're going to hell because you're a sinful person.  We all are, but those who will be saved will be because of Jesus.
2.  You are held accountable to what you know.  If you never heard the name of Jesus, for example, but lived under the law of Moses, you will be held accountable to the law of Moses.  Here's a touch of reality.  Trying to convince God you're "good enough" is like everyone lining up on the beach in California and swimming to Hawaii.  Sure, some will make it further than the others, but none of them will make it Hawaii.  Don't ignore Jesus in the cruise ship inviting you to get on board and enjoy the trip.
3.  There are indeed many rooms in the Father's mansion, and they will be full of many people.  They will be there because of the name of Jesus.

The only way to live in heaven forever is through the blood of Christ.  How that is applied to a person, however, is up to God.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 26, 2016)

hadit said:


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I guess you don't know what the original sin was.  The original sin that got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden wasn't so much that they ate the apple, but rather that they wouldn't take responsibility for eating it.  Me?  Ever since I grew up and started acting like an adult (took me to 30, so I feel okay about it), I've been taking responsibility for all my actions, the good as well as the bad, and when I mess up, I recognize where I went wrong and modify my behavior.

Matter of fact, I haven't broken a single one of the 10 Commandments for a very long time now.

But, that doesn't matter much to me.  Like I said, God is too big to be contained in just one religion, dogma, or belief system.  When my time comes, I'm hoping to be sent either to Nirvana (Heaven for Buddhists and Taoists), or Fiddler's Green, the Heaven that sailors are sent to.  It has marijuana and rum!


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

hadit said:


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Explain to us why Jesus cannot save those who you claim are going to the Christian hell. Does he have to save them from sin , or just from believers like you? Why can't the name of Jesus save those Christianity is writing off?


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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I do not know every detail of how Jesus will deal with those who do not know His name, but I do know that to know the Gospel of Jesus and to reject it is fatal.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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Well you can start with this detail , although I already know that your consciousness will not be able to understand what I am about to show ;  so its not for you ; Jesus reveals in detail how he will deal with unbelievers ; John 12:47 , " And if ANY man hears my words and does not believe them , I judge him NOT! for I came NOT to judge the world ,but to SAVE THE WORLD!" Christianity cannot see this verse .  There is a gulf fixed in their heads that blocks this GREAT Salvation from them.

Jesus came to save all the unbelievers on earth. That is why the Father sent him. 1 John 4:14 , " And we have seen and do testify  that the Father SENT the Son to BE the SAVIOUR of THE  WORLD!" Not the Savior of just believers ,  not the Saviour of just Christians , not the Saviour  of a particular group ; Jesus was sent here to save a WORLD! ALL those people who do not know him.

And I gladly testify to that.


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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Then you need to testify to the rest of what Jesus said.  I have put the salient part in bold.

John 12


> 47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48* There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day*. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”



If you would be so kind, please deal with Jesus saying that there will be condemnation for those who reject Him.


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## Mudda (Oct 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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What proof do you have that Jesus said these things? Anyone can write a book several generations after the facts were supposed to have happened.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

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Gladly, but again this is not for your consciousness, you are trained to only see condemnation for unbelievers.  The word " Condemn " there simply  means to "judge " them , they will be judged. And the judgment  will be salvation.  But your eyes , your mindset sees this word "Condemn", and something in you gets off on it and you don't see a chance at all for the persons salvation. And the translators of the bible thought just like you did , and they put "Condemn" in there when they should have put " Judge" there.

Christians have condemnation on the mind. They can't help it.


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


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That is not the point.  The argument was that Jesus intended to save the entire world, but the source used actually contradicts that assertion.


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Condemn does not mean judge.  Out of judgement can come condemnation, but can also come vindication.  Vindication cannot come out of condemnation.  You're just reaching at this point, changing the words to mean something completely different.


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## Mudda (Oct 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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But it's like arguing over whether Batman actually was going to save Gothem city but another comic book contradicts that.

And it all comes down to proof, how can you folks believe in something so important with absolutely no proof? It boggles the mind.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

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Show me any dictionary that does not use " Judge" in its definition of condemnation;

the definition of condemn


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


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As you said, you grant credibility to UFO abductions because of the stories.  You are a walking example of taking something on faith.


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## Mudda (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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First thing that popped up on google with no mention of the word judge, you lose again:

con·dem·na·tion
ˌkändəmˈnāSH(ə)n/
_noun_

*1*.
the expression of very strong disapproval; censure.
"there was strong international condemnation of the attack"
synonyms: censure, criticism, strictures, denunciation, vilification; 
reproof, disapproval;
_informal_flak, (a) bad press; 
_formal_castigation
"a comment that provoked widespread condemnation"
*2*.
the action of condemning someone to a punishment; sentencing.


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Look at the definition of judge.  You can be condemned as a result of being judged.  They are not the same because you can also be vindicated as a result of of being judged.

Have you ever considered a criminal trial?  The defendant is judged in every trial, but he is not condemned in every trial.  Do you see where you are wrong?


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## Mudda (Oct 27, 2016)

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The bible wouldn't pass the sniff test as real evidence in an actual trial.


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Read some Lee Strobel, specifically "The Case for Christ"..


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## Mudda (Oct 27, 2016)

hadit said:


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What's his best evidence?


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## Mudda (Oct 27, 2016)

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So you're saying that nobody's ever been abducted by aliens? They aren't stories, real people have really been abducted.  But nobody's actually seen your invisible Big Guy.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

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You stand for the condemnation of unbelievers,. I stand for their complete forgiveness and salvation. I see salvation in the scriptures and I search the scriptures for it. There is now no condemnation for the world ; Jesus has overcome the world and satan ;Jesus has died to keep sinners out of the hands of satan and Christians ; and anyone who condemns humans. The devil and Christians cannot stop the salvation of sinners.


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## Mudda (Oct 27, 2016)

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You see salvation in comic books? Figures.


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

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And yet Jesus Himself says multiple times in Scripture that people will be condemned.  Your problem isn't with me, it's with Him.


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## hadit (Oct 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


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You accept their stories on faith.  You were not there, you did not see, hear, touch, or smell the aliens or their craft, you were not present when the examinations were done, none of that.  You are taking their word on their experiences by faith, to the point that you have now moved from a position of cautious possibility to absolute statements of fact.  Face it, you are believing by faith.  

Using that same standard, people have actually seen God work, have actually heard His voice, have actually had direct experience with Him, for thousands of years.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

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Your dead wrong , my problem is with Christianity and their lust for condemnation.  I know  posting scriptures is a useless cause for those who think like you , but for others , here's 150 reasons why I have no problem with Jesus  , and unbelievers have no problem with him either;

150 Reasons For Believing In The Final Salvation Of All Mankind


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

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No, not _absolute_ statement of fact. But the facts are pretty overwhelming, what with all the abductions, sightings... So I'm just missing... an alien, lol. 
As for god, he's completely invisible and no real proof has ever come forward. I just go with what's there, if god were provable and real, I'd have no problem with that. But logically, if a god wants me to obey him, he just has to ask, I shouldn't need to have to read a book that sounds like a con man's handbook, and then suspend reality to do so.


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## Mickiel (Oct 28, 2016)

This whole Tithing and hell debacle is frightening proof that religion and Christianity has great power over people. When people will give a percentage of their money every week ,  that is Power! Christianity has convinced them that it is their " Duty",  to give money , then , and only then , God will bless them. They have money pouring in like rain. And real biblical principles are being abused!

But because the people are so reluctant to read the bible for themselves ;  and even if they do read , their consciousness is already "Seared" and they would not see the truth any way. Their milking people like cows!


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> This whole Tithing and hell debacle is frightening proof that religion and Christianity has great power over people. When people will give a percentage of their money every week ,  that is Power! Christianity has convinced them that it is their " Duty",  to give money , then , and only then , God will bless them. They have money pouring in like rain. And real biblical principles are being abused!
> 
> But because the people are so reluctant to read the bible for themselves ;  and even if they do read , their consciousness is already "Seared" and they would not see the truth any way. Their milking people like cows!


The bible was written a minimum of several generations after the facts. There's no proof that, for example, the book of Luke was actually written by Luke. And what they say Jesus said, is purely hearsay.


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## Mickiel (Oct 28, 2016)

The Christian tithe is an old covenant ritual of giving food to the Priest. The modern church got hold of that and perverted it.

They turned giving food to a Priest into giving a percentage of money to a church.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

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Your problem is indeed with Jesus, because He makes it absolutely clear that many will be condemned.  I have posted Scripture multiple times for you showing exactly that, but you either ignore them altogether or just change the words to suit your viewpoint.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

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Again, you accept alien abductions by faith with no evidence, just hearsay.


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## Mickiel (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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The Christian tithe is a rip off.  A rip off of scripture by the church to change the biblical principles to words that suit  their viewpoint.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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A plain reading of Christ's words make it clear that people will be condemned for unbelief and sin.  Your problem is with Him, not with Christianity.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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The scriptures have been changed many, many times. What's one more?


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Evidence?


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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No, there's actually tons of real proof of alien abductions, you just refuse to accept it. For god, there's no proof, only wishful thinking.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Faith, faith, faith.  Again, using your standard of proof, God absolutely exists.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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Oh, come on, seriously? Just search the net, I'm not going to do it for you. Start with how the KJV came about, it was edited by tons of people gathered for just that purpose.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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Jesus already died for our sins, that bill is paid.


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## Mickiel (Oct 28, 2016)

The biblical tithe was a product of land , not money.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> *God absolutely exists*.


Prove it. Without referencing the Big Book of Fiction.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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Likewise, I'll have you do the research to find out that the OT has been altered very little from the earliest manuscripts on and the NT was written a lot earlier than you insist it was.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
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> > *God absolutely exists*.
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Your standard of evidence for alien abduction is anecdotal.  There are millions of accounts of people for thousands of years having contact with God.  Therefore, using your standard of proof, God absolutely exists.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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"Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action -_*MONEY!*_ He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of God" into existence."
The Ungodly Origins of the Bible

And that was just the first link that came up, there are tons more...


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


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You're not doing your assigned research.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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So you're saying that using anecdotal evidence, your god is proven? Ok, I can agree with that. But for me, that doesn't pass my sniff test, I need more than anecdotal evidence.
And I can say that I don't personally have any proof of aliens, but real things have happened to real people, unlike with god, nothing can actually be traced back to have been done by an invisible being.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Okay, but look at it this way.  You believe in alien abductions based on a relative handful of accounts that have happened over what, the last 50 years or so?  Yet you completely dismiss the huge volume of accounts from people who have encountered God over thousands of years.  Why do you insist on far more evidence for the existence of God than you do for alien abductions?



> And I can say that I don't personally have any proof of aliens, but real things have happened to real people, unlike with god, nothing can actually be traced back to have been done by an invisible being.


What evidence beyond anecdotal do you have of alien abductions?

Using that same standard, absolutely things can be traced back to having been done by God.  And my belief goes further than just the anecdotal, because I personally have proof of God working, proof that satisfies me.  It is the same kind of proof you would have if you personally were abducted by aliens but they returned you with no proof that anyone else would accept.

The bottom line remains, your belief in alien abductions is based on faith, just as my belief in God began with faith.


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## boedicca (Oct 28, 2016)

Christian tithing is Voluntary.

The Government puts a gun to one's head to take over 50% of one's productive life.  I'd worry more about that.


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## the_human_being (Oct 28, 2016)

I find it amazing that tithing is a worry to people who don't even attend church.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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There's is no real proof of god's intervention that I know of. And there's no proof of anything that the bible says that god did.
As for alien abductions, real things have happened, you just seem not to accept them.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


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I remain agnostic on the alien thing, but I continue to point out that there is no real evidence of alien abductions and that your belief in them is faith based.  You have faith, but malign mine.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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Real things have happened to people that they have been able to prove, like disappearing for hours or days, you simply think they are liars. There is simply no proof whatsoever of god's intervention.


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## hadit (Oct 28, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mudda said:
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We've been over that whole proof thing before, and using your standard, the proof of God's existence is overwhelming.

Real things have happened to real people, like healing sicknesses through prayer, people returned from the dead, and supernatural protection while doing missions, and you think they are all liars.  There is simply no real proof whatsoever of alien abductions.

See how that works?  You have faith that alien abductions are real, despite having no real evidence.  You are upset that I would challenge that faith, yet you have no problem asserting that my faith, which is based on not only a much larger data set than yours, but bolstered by personal experience, is false.


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## Mudda (Oct 28, 2016)

hadit said:


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What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before. As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol. As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?
But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 28, 2016)

Ever consider the possibility that God is actually an extra terrestrial who came here a LOOOOONG time ago, genetically modified Neanderthals into modern man, and will come back to Earth when we finally meet Him in the clouds (like somewhere at the edge of the Solar system)?

There...............covered both sides. 

Look up "ancient astronaut theory" sometime.


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

The Christian tithe can make you feel spiritual , like giving  the money actually builds character.

Giving money is a way to grow spiritually? Oh so now we can buy our spirituality?


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## Mudda (Oct 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe can make you feel spiritual , like giving  the money actually builds character.
> 
> Giving money is a way to grow spiritually? Oh so now we can buy our spirituality?


You're just cheap.


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

You actually think God is going to be concerned with how much money you have given to a church?


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## ding (Oct 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe can make you feel spiritual , like giving  the money actually builds character.
> 
> Giving money is a way to grow spiritually? Oh so now we can buy our spirituality?


*...in order to charm the golden birds, out of the pockets of his dearly beloved neighbours in Christ. He puts himself at the service of the other’s most depraved fancies, plays the pimp between him and his need, excites in him morbid appetites, lies in wait for each of his weaknesses – all so that he can then demand the cash for this service of love. *(Every product is a bait with which to seduce away the other’s very being, his money; every real and possible need is a weakness which will lead the fly to the glue-pot. General exploitation of communal human nature, just as every imperfection in man, is a bond with heaven – *an avenue giving the priest access to his heart; every need is an opportunity to approach one’s neighbour under the guise of the utmost amiability and to say to him: Dear friend, I give you what you need, but you know the *_*conditio sine qua non*_*; you know the ink in which you have to sign yourself over to me; in providing for your pleasure, I fleece you.)*

Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844
3rd paragraph

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/needs.htm


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## ding (Oct 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before. As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol. As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?
> But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.


What proof would you accept for God's existence?


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

Why do I get all the case jobs?


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> You actually think God is going to be concerned with how much money you have given to a church?


Apparently, yes.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before. As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol. As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?
> ...


Something that would be accepted


ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before. As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol. As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?
> ...


Something real that could be accepted in a court of law as real evidence would probably do it.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? Or did you just make that up?


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Ok, tell me exactly what you would accept.  Be specific.  Because I don't think you can do it because I don't think there is anything you will accept.  So why don't we cut to the chase and you just admit, that there is nothing you will accept.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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I just told you: something that could be accepted in a court of law as real evidence. What don't you understand?
What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? You make that up?


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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No.  You didn't.  You laid out parameters for that something.  Ok, let's test it.  God comes down from heaven and introduces Himself to you in person.  Would that be enough for you?


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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Yes, because an actual person is accepted in a court of law to give testimony... be evidence himself because you can actually see him and touch him.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? You too embarrassed to say?


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I have no idea, but Catholic thought teaches that each of us has a guardian angel.  Maybe it is something like that.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


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So would you accept something He created as evidence?


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## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

Today is rip off day at most churches. Some of them don't use collection plates ,they use "Buckets."

Milking people like cows.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

*...in order to charm the golden birds, out of the pockets of his dearly beloved neighbours in Christ. He puts himself at the service of the other’s most depraved fancies, plays the pimp between him and his need, excites in him morbid appetites, lies in wait for each of his weaknesses – all so that he can then demand the cash for this service of love. *(Every product is a bait with which to seduce away the other’s very being, his money; every real and possible need is a weakness which will lead the fly to the glue-pot. General exploitation of communal human nature, just as every imperfection in man, is a bond with heaven – *an avenue giving the priest access to his heart; every need is an opportunity to approach one’s neighbour under the guise of the utmost amiability and to say to him: Dear friend, I give you what you need, but you know the *_*conditio sine qua non*_*; you know the ink in which you have to sign yourself over to me; in providing for your pleasure, I fleece you.)*

Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844
3rd paragraph

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/needs.htm


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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If you can prove that "He" created it.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? Answer or lose all credibility.


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## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

Today millions of dollars will be drained from the believing masses on earth. Literally none of them will ever see their money again.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Let me flip that around,  If you can't prove He didn't create it why would you dismiss it as possible evidence.  When police investigate a murder scene they examine all evidence.  They don't know who left it, but they still regard it as evidence.  They use reason and logic to figure out what the evidence means.  Basically, you would like to skip that process and go straight to dismissing the evidence.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


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I'm an agnostic, I don't think that the existence of a god has been proven either way to exist or to not exist. There is simply not enough real, concrete evidence to confirm any of this. That's why atheists are deluded as well, because there's also no proof that a god CAN'T exist. So the only logical position is to be an agnostic, i.e., we see no proof either way, and personally, if I ever get real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Can't be any fairer than that. If I get burned for eternity for that, well, then I have to conclude that god is a total idiot.

As for your scenario, the cops wouldn't arrest anyone, yet, because they have insufficient evidence to do so. But ya, they save what evidence they have until the day when maybe they'll be able to build a case.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Based on my observations of your comments in our discussions, I don't believe you are not agnostic.  Be honest. 

But there is evidence.  Mind you I'm not saying it proves His existence.  I am saying that if He does exist, then evidence can be found through reason and your own experience.  Humor me and I'll show you.  Answer these questions honestly and you may become agnostic.

When you create something, can that creation be used as evidence? 

When you create something is your creation the realization of your intention?  In other words if you set out to make a cell phone do you end up making a turkey dinner? 

When you create something, do you do it in steps?  Or does it just magically appear?

Do more complex creations require more steps?  Does it take more steps to create a cell phone than it does a turkey dinner?

Do more complex creations require intelligence?  Is more inetlligence required to make a cell phone than a turkey dinner?

Can I learn anything about you by your creation? 

Can I learn how many steps you had to take? 

Can I learn what your level of intelligence was from what you created?

Can I learn what the purpose of your creation was?

So let's say I found something and did not know who made it, could I not analyze what I found and learn something from it.  Isn't this what police do when they investigate a crime scene?


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ...Can't be any fairer than that. If I get burned for eternity for that, well, then I have to conclude that god is a total idiot....


Do you remember the scene in Batman with Morgan Freeman?  The one where this employee walks up and says he has figured out that Bruce Wayne was batman and he was going to extort him for money to keep his secret?  Do you remember what Morgan Freeman said to him?  Your conversation with God where you tell Him what an idiot He is for not giving you enough information to believe in Him is going to be very similar to that.  Now, do you really believe that is a good plan?


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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"So let's say I found something and did not know who made it". So you're admitting that you don't know who made the universe? Good for you, you're heading in the right direction.

"When you create something, do you do it in steps?  Or does it just magically appear?" One of the things I do is that I'm a songwriter and songs just come to me, sometimes in steps/over days, sometimes just like that, magically, if you will.

"Do more complex creations require more steps?  Does it take more steps to create a cell phone than it does a turkey dinner?" A turkey dinner is a complex thing to make, grow the food and animal... transport... it might be easier to make a cell phone, lol. So, no.

"Do more complex creations require intelligence?" Probably, but complex things are sometimes made by very ordinary people.  "Is more inetlligence required to make a cell phone than a turkey dinner?" probably not. We went to the moon with less computing power than it takes to send an email.

"Can I learn anything about you by your creation?" About as much as you can learn about Picasso by looking at his paintings, which isn't much. And if I look at a cell phone, I have no idea who or what the person is who made, no clue at all.

"Can I learn how many steps you had to take?" No.

"Can I learn what your level of intelligence was from what you created?" Possibly, but someone extremely intelligent might paint like a chimp.

"Can I learn what the purpose of your creation was?" No always.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ...Can't be any fairer than that. If I get burned for eternity for that, well, then I have to conclude that god is a total idiot....
> ...


I didn't watch any Batmans, lol. Please try again.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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See this is how I know that you are not agnostic.   You keep putting words in my mouth that I didn't write.  It would be really nice in the future if you would just ask me instead of making assumptions that I have to correct.  It will save us both time and resources.  

Do I know who created the universe?  To the best of my ability I do.  Would I bet my life on it?  Let me answer that like this: I wouldn't bet my life on anything, but this is the lone exception.  So, yes, I'd bet my life on it and I have.  Why?  Because I have done my due diligence and have seen Him work miracles in my life and the lives of those I love.  You may not call them miracles, but I would.  I have become a totally different person because of my relationship with Him and I have seen the benefits in not only myself, but also my family.  

Let me turn this around on you now.  Your statement implies that someone created the universe.  Additionally, how has your "agnosticism" made your life and the lives of the ones you love better?

Being a songwriter, I am surprised that you are not more receptive to God's spirit within you.  When people create, they are tapping into that inner spirit within.  But regardless, your lyrics do come sequentially.  You may write one section before another, or even come up with lyrics within a section in a different order, but your final creation is a sequential order of steps.  It wouldn't work any other way.  There is a correct or better or maybe even best order.  

So, you really want to argue that simple creations are more complex than complex creations?  Let me ask it differently... what is the rule and what is the exception?  For the purpose of this discussion let's not define the rule by exception, ok?  Do you want to change your answer?

Same thing about the next question.  As a rule can we learn things about you from your creations?  Let's take your music?  Can I learn if you are talented?  Can I learn if you have passion?  Do you believe that people can listen to your songs and learn about what kind of person you are?  Do you believe your intelligence will shine through in your songs?  Can I not hear a catchy phrase and learn the depth of your character?  Do you want to change your answer?  

So when one builds a house we can't write down the sequential order of the what was done?  Again, I am going to ask you if you are defining the rule as the rule or as the exception.  If it is the latter, I doubt you are agnostic.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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Never mind.  If you can't project how it will go when you tell an omnipotent being how he is an idiot and made a mistake, I doubt anything I say will make a difference.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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You simply like living in a dream world where you're convinced that an invisible superbeing rules, and if you don't obey some arbitrary rules written up by men, that you'll burn in a fire forever. I've made my life and my family's life better by not living it based on fairy tales, because that's what the bible is. You haven't proven one single thing about your invisibly friend, and if you ever care to, I'm here.

"Being a songwriter, I am surprised that you are not more receptive to God's spirit within you.  When people create, they are tapping into that inner spirit within.  But regardless, your lyrics do come sequentially.  You may write one section before another, or even come up with lyrics within a section in a different order, but your final creation is a sequential order of steps.  It wouldn't work any other way.  There is a correct or better or maybe even best order. " *No, there is no best, better or correct order. It's like scoring a goal, it doesn't really matter how it got in the net, just that it did, and there's no proper way to score a goal, any puck that goes in is the proper way.*

"So, you really want to argue that simple creations are more complex than complex creations?" *Maybe I'm not getting what you're getting at here, because more complex things are more complex. What's the relevance?
*
"As a rule can we learn things about you from your creations?  Let's take your music?  Can I learn if you are talented?  Can I learn if you have passion?  Do you believe that people can listen to your songs and learn about what kind of person you are?  Do you believe your intelligence will shine through in your songs?  Can I not hear a catchy phrase and learn the depth of your character?"
*Sometimes the smartest people in music write the simplest, dumbest songs. But you don't learn much about the composer from a song. 
*
"So when one builds a house we can't write down the sequential order of the what was done?"
*Yes, but some things like art have no sequential rules.*


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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Now, as before, you just have to prove that your "omnipotent being" exists. You haven't proven it, your omnipotent being friend hasn't proven itself either. So I'm supposed to live my life by what someone invisible and unproven says by way of some men's writings? Man, that's fucked up.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> You simply like living in a dream world where you're convinced that an invisible superbeing rules, and if you don't obey some arbitrary rules written up by men, that you'll burn in a fire forever.



I have not gotten within 100 miles of arguing that God exists.  The only thing I am discussing is that IF God exists AND God created the universe, could what He created be used as evidence.  



Mudda said:


> I've made my life and my family's life better by not living it based on fairy tales, because that's what the bible is.



I think that is great, I really do, but we are discussing a path not traveled.  You can only make a proper comparison between the two after you have traveled both.



Mudda said:


> You haven't proven one single thing about your invisibly friend, and if you ever care to, I'm here.


As I have already said, I'm not trying to prove anything about [my] "invisible" friend.  We are discussing IF God exists AND God created the universe, could what He created be used as evidence.  I thought you were agnostic.  Have you changed your mind about that?



Mudda said:


> No, there is no best, better or correct order. It's like scoring a goal, it doesn't really matter how it got in the net, just that it did, and there's no proper way to score a goal, any puck that goes in is the proper way.



So you could just put any old chord progression and change keys willy-nilly?  No.  I don't think so.  Music, like mathematics doesn't work that way.  



Mudda said:


> Maybe I'm not getting what you're getting at here, because more complex things are more complex. What's the relevance?


The relevance is that as a rule, the greater the complexity something is, the more steps and intelligence required to make it.  This is self evident.  



Mudda said:


> Sometimes the smartest people in music write the simplest, dumbest songs. But you don't learn much about the composer from a song.



Sure, but here again you are pointing at the exception rather than the rule.  In the case of music or art or anything that requires creative skills over technical skills, The artists with the most talent will be the ones that can pull off the greatest works, just like in the technical realm, the most intelligent ones are the ones that pull of the most complex works.  This is all common sense and should be self evident.  



Mudda said:


> Yes, but some things like art have no sequential rules.


Sure.  Some art like abstract art for instance, but most art requires a tremendous talent to pull off.  But here again you are pointing at the exception rather than the rule.  It looks like to me you are looking for ways to confirm your bias that there can be no evidence for a Creator, when in reality, IF there is a Creator, His Creation is the evidence.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Now, as before, you just have to prove that your "omnipotent being" exists. You haven't proven it, your omnipotent being friend hasn't proven itself either.



I'm not trying to prove God exists.  I am trying to explain to you that IF God exists and IF He created the universe, everything inside of the universe could be used as evidence.  One would think someone who claimed to be agnostic, would start looking at the evidence a little more closely.  That's your call, brother.  My obligation has been satisfied.



Mudda said:


> So I'm supposed to live my life by what someone invisible and unproven says by way of some men's writings,


No.  You have free will.  You can live your life anyway you want to live your life.  Your actions and behaviors have consequences.  Not only in this life but the next.  Not only for you but also the people you care about.  We live in a universe where there has never been an uncaused event.   Violating physical laws have immediate consequences, not so for moral law violations, but there will eventually be consequences.  Why? Because not all behaviors lead to equal results. Failed behaviors will naturally and eventually lead to failures and successful behaviors will naturally and eventually lead to success.  At any point in your life you are the sum of your choices.  So don't be shocked when predictable surprises occur because they will only be a surprise to you.  Personally, I believe someone who has no belief other than arguments against the beliefs of others is pretty messed up, but it is your mistake to make. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  Go live your life as you see fit, but don't say you weren't warned.



Mudda said:


> Man, that's fucked up.


Yep.  It sure is, but that is a discussion for another day as that too has an explanation.


----------



## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You simply like living in a dream world where you're convinced that an invisible superbeing rules, and if you don't obey some arbitrary rules written up by men, that you'll burn in a fire forever.
> ...


Lots of bands with no talent have hit songs that suck. The most talented people don't always make it to the top, as it takes more than just talent. That's the rule, not the exception.
Actually, people do compose music by playing any old chord sometimes. Atonal music, for example, has no structure whatsoever.
the most talented don't always make the greatest works. Ex: U2 musicians aren't the most talented but together they made something pretty big.
I've also travelled both paths, as a youngster, I went to Sunday school and attending a catholic school with catechism classes...
The universe can't be used as evidence of any invisible being because such a being has never been proven.


----------



## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Now, as before, you just have to prove that your "omnipotent being" exists. You haven't proven it, your omnipotent being friend hasn't proven itself either.
> ...


I don't have arguments against god (because I believe that a god is certainly possible, just not yet proven), I have arguments against what you say because you have no proof of what you say about being judged by an invisible person.
You say you've warned me, so your religion works on threats, not common sense/proof. Absurd.


----------



## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Lots of bands with no talent have hit songs that suck. The most talented people don't always make it to the top, as it takes more than just talent. That's the rule, not the exception.


You should contact the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with this news.  Just tell them who you are and what your opinion is and I'm sure they will gladly rectify the situation.



Mudda said:


> Actually, people do compose music by playing any old chord sometimes. Atonal music, for example, has no structure whatsoever.


Would they be the exception or the rule?  How many would you say do that compared to those that don't do that?



Mudda said:


> the most talented don't always make the greatest works. Ex: U2 musicians aren't the most talented but together they made something pretty big.


I'll be sure to pass that on to Bono the next time we are discussing whether or not the universe and the evolution of matter can be used as evidence for a Creator.



Mudda said:


> I've also travelled both paths, as a youngster, I went to Sunday school and attending a catholic school with catechism classes...


That probably explains why you are an atheist pretending to be agnostic.  It also probably explains why you are trying to resolve your struggle within by spending so much time talking about something you don't believe exists.  You spend much time discussing the FSM?



Mudda said:


> The universe can't be used as evidence of any invisible being because such a being has never been proven.


Sure it can.  Short of God coming down to earth and dying for our sins and inspiring men to capture His word, it's all we have.


----------



## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of bands with no talent have hit songs that suck. The most talented people don't always make it to the top, as it takes more than just talent. That's the rule, not the exception.
> ...


You use the simpleton's line: the universe exists, therefore someone had to have created it. That is simply not yet proven, we don't know who or why the universe ended up like it did, and it may very well be some invisible superbeing in another dimension that created everything but that's not yet been proven, and it may very well be something completely different. 
And the fact that you're getting snooty about my position shows me that it bothers you. I started coming here because I figured I'd ask believers if they had any actual proof that makes them believe, and nobody has ever had even a tiny shred of proof. They usually get upset at me for insisting on real proof, probably because it makes people feel deep down that they really do have nothing concrete to base their core beliefs on.


----------



## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> You use the simpleton's line: the universe exists, therefore someone had to have created it.


The simplest answer is usually the correct answer.  You shouldn't be knocking simple solutions.  Besides, we live in a universe where there has NEVER been an uncaused event.  NEVER.  I didn't say someone.  I said a Creator.  I don't think the Creator is a someone.  I think the Creator is a something.  Who knows what it is.  I only have reason and experience to go by.  Reason tells us that if something is created, something created it.  Experience tells us that what was created can be used as evidence.  Look at it this way, if we were living in a virtual reality software program we wouldn't know we were and we wouldn't know who wrote the code, but there would have been a creator for that.



Mudda said:


> That is simply not yet proven, we don't know who or why the universe ended up like it did, and it may very well be some invisible superbeing in another dimension that created everything but that's not yet been proven, and it may very well be something completely different.


Maybe or maybe not, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.  All we are discussing is whether or not what was created can be used as evidence.  If there was a Creator, I say it can.  You apparently say it can't.  Fine.  Why are we still discussing it then?  Honest men can have honest differences of opinion.  You continue to believe what you want and I'll do the same.  



Mudda said:


> And the fact that you're getting snooty about my position shows me that it bothers you.


I am not being anymore snooty than you are, so don't go and get all high and mighty on me.  



Mudda said:


> I started coming here because I figured I'd ask believers if they had any actual proof that makes them believe, and nobody has ever had even a tiny shred of proof. They usually get upset at me for insisting on real proof, probably because it makes people feel deep down that they really do have nothing concrete to base their core beliefs on.


I hope you don't mind if I call BS on this.  You are here to amuse yourself and to make yourself feel superior.  I have tons of evidence to support my beliefs.  You won't accept any of it.  I can't even get you to accept that tangible items can be used as evidence.  If you won't open your mind to that, there is nothing you will accept.


----------



## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> I don't have arguments against god (because I believe that a god is certainly possible, just not yet proven)


That's not it looks to me.



Mudda said:


> You haven't proven it, your omnipotent being friend hasn't proven itself either.


That's because we aren't discussing proof for God.  The only thing I am discussing is that IF God exists AND God created the universe, could what He created be used as evidence. 



Mudda said:


> You say you've warned me, so your religion works on threats, not common sense/proof. Absurd.


No.  I have warned you about practicing failed behaviors in this world and the consequences for doing so in this world.  The next world is between you and God.


----------



## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You use the simpleton's line: the universe exists, therefore someone had to have created it.
> ...


What tangible evidence? You've provide nothing. Not even your own experience, if any.

Now you're saying that god is a thing. So I should worship and obey a thing or burn in a fire forever? This story just gets more far fetched by the post. How can a thing want me to obey it? So if we're made in his image, we're things as well? How does that work exactly?
So you admit to being snooty? Good for you. Did you learn that attitude from Jesus? 
What was created can be used as evidence? Of what? Not knowing how it was created? Then yes, I agree. And btw, good for you again.


----------



## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have arguments against god (because I believe that a god is certainly possible, just not yet proven)
> ...


I don't practise what you call failed behaviours.
If you want to claim that "the next world is between you and god", then you'll have to prove god. Go for it.


----------



## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

Ding, What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"?


----------



## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> What tangible evidence? You've provide nothing. Not even your own experience, if any.


The universe and everything inside it would be considered tangible evidence.  When I spoke about experience I was referring to my experiences creating things.


Mudda said:


> Now you're saying that god is a thing.


That was me getting you back on track from you wanting me to prove God's existence to you.


Mudda said:


> So I should worship and obey a thing or burn in a fire forever?


No.  I didn't say that.  That's up to you.  I couldn't care less what you do.  I believe that will be between you and God.


Mudda said:


> This story just gets more far fetched by the post.


The "story" is all in your head.  You seem to think that I'm trying to prove God existence to you.  I'm not.  You should know that by now.  I have not gotten within 100 miles of arguing that God exists. *The only thing I am discussing is that IF God exists AND God created the universe, could what He created be used as evidence. *


Mudda said:


> How can a thing want me to obey it? So if we're made in his image, we're things as well? How does that work exactly?


Seriously?  C'mon man.  Go talk to Mickey.  *The only thing I am discussing is that IF God exists AND God created the universe, could what He created be used as evidence. *


Mudda said:


> So you admit to being snooty?


No.  I admitted that I wan't being anymore snooty than you were.  C'mon man.


Mudda said:


> Good for you. Did you learn that attitude from Jesus?


No.  It's one of the things He's working on.  I never claimed to be a saint.


Mudda said:


> What was created can be used as evidence? Of what? Not knowing how it was created? Then yes, I agree.


We already discussed this, you just dismissed each and every one.  Don't you remember?


Mudda said:


> I don't practise what you call failed behaviours.


That's good.  I hope that's true, but that will be determined by the outcomes, not what you say.


Mudda said:


> Ding, What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"?


I answered that in another thread.  I don't know what it is.  Try asking Mickey.  Maybe he knows.  He knows everything.


----------



## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > What tangible evidence? You've provide nothing. Not even your own experience, if any.
> ...




I know God is real ;


Is God Real?


----------



## Mudda (Oct 31, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


What's your best proof?


----------



## Mudda (Oct 31, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > What tangible evidence? You've provide nothing. Not even your own experience, if any.
> ...


"*The only thing I am discussing is that IF God exists AND God created the universe, could what He created be used as evidence." * Anything concrete can be used as evidence, you just need the proper trial or circumstance to use it in. You're taking evidence and attributing it to an invisible person without any solid reason to do so. You'd be thrown out of court. If not laughed out.

"I admitted that I wan't being anymore snooty than you were" But I don't have an invisible friend telling not to be snooty or I'll roast in a fire forever, lol.

If you want to claim that "the next world is between you and god", then you'll have to prove god. Go for it. Otherwise don't claim such things and then deflect to the same phrase about not trying to prove god (which you are, but failing epically) every time.

If you don't know what "supernatural protection while doing missions" are, then why did you mention it as something your invisible friend does?


----------



## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.

What's God going to do with money?


----------



## ding (Oct 31, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Anything concrete can be used as evidence, you just need the proper trial or circumstance to use it in.



Tangible evidence is analyzed during an investigation and presented at trial.  We're not at the trial phase, we are still in the investigation phase. You still have not acknowledged that tangible items can be used as evidence and that information can be obtained from them.  You want to skip these steps and go straight to judgement.  It doesn't work that way.



Mudda said:


> You're taking evidence and attributing it to an invisible person without any solid reason to do so. You'd be thrown out of court. If not laughed out.



No.  I am not.  I am merely asking the question if tangible items can be used as evidence and can information can be obtained from it.



Mudda said:


> You'd be thrown out of court. If not laughed out.



Like I wrote before, we are not at the trial phase yet.  We are still in the investigation phase.  So, there is no court to be laughed out of.  But if there were, the only person who would be getting laughed out of court would be the person saying that tangible items can NOT be used as evidence and that information can NOT be obtained from them.



Mudda said:


> But I don't have an invisible friend telling not to be snooty or I'll roast in a fire forever, lol.



I don't either, lol.



Mudda said:


> If you want to claim that "the next world is between you and god", then you'll have to prove god.



No.  I don't.  It will be what it will be regardless of what you are I write.  I wish you the best.



Mudda said:


> Go for it.



No.  That wouldn't make any sense because all I am trying to do right now is to get you to accept or reject that tangible items can be used as evidence and that information can be obtained from them.  Right now it seems like you are rejecting this concept.



Mudda said:


> Otherwise don't claim such things and then deflect to the same phrase about not trying to prove god (which you are, but failing epically) every time.



I see it differently than you do.  I am trying to figure out if you believe that tangible items can be used as evidence and that information can be obtained from them.  You are wanting for me to prove to you that God exists.   I have already told you that doesn't make sense until we agree on what can be used as evidence.  So, I'm not going to be able to do what you want me to do until we resolve this issue.  Until then I suggest you comment the way you want and I'll do the same.  Fair enough?



Mudda said:


> If you don't know what "supernatural protection while doing missions" are, then why did you mention it as something your invisible friend does?



I never wrote that.  You are confusing me with someone else.


----------



## Mudda (Oct 31, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Anything concrete can be used as evidence, you just need the proper trial or circumstance to use it in.
> ...


I already said that anything concrete can be used as evidence, what more are you looking for? 
As for "the next world is between you and god", you're assuming that a god exists, when no one has ever proven such a thing. Not even your evidence proves this.


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

The truth is being given to little unknown websites and religions , but hidden from giant Christianity ;

The Lie of Tithing


----------



## ding (Oct 31, 2016)

Mudda said:


> I already said that anything concrete can be used as evidence, what more are you looking for?



Yes, I agree that you did just write that, but you then proceeded to dismiss that it can be used as evidence for a Creator.  So basically you have placed a caveat on it.  Look, either tangible items can be used as evidence and information can be gathered from it or it can't.  You can't pick and choose when and where those attributes of evidence exist.  So which is it?



Mudda said:


> As for "the next world is between you and god", you're assuming that a god exists, when no one has ever proven such a thing. Not even your evidence proves this.



Yes.  I do believe that God exists and what happens to you in the next world is between you and Him.  Congratulations.  You have just stated the obvious.  So what?  Either God exists or He doesn't. From my standpoint, what happens to you in the next world is between you and God.  I have nothing to do with it.  From your standpoint there is no next world, so you have nothing to worry about.  Which begs the question, why are we still discussing this?


----------



## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

Join me in a study of "The Tithing Trap:"

Tithing Trap: Bible truth about tithes


----------



## ding (Oct 31, 2016)

Mudda said:


> I already said that anything concrete can be used as evidence, what more are you looking for?



Ok, let's start over.  Without you admitting that Creation was created by God, can you agree on the following ground rules for possible evidence of God's existence.  Mind you, you are not admitting that there is a God.  You are only acknowledging the attributes of evidence.

When you create something, can that creation be used as evidence?

When you create something is your creation the realization of your intention? In other words if you set out to make a cell phone do you end up making a turkey dinner?

When you create something, do you usually create it in steps do it in steps?

Do more complex creations require more steps? Does it take more steps to create a cell phone than it does a turkey dinner?

Do more complex creations require intelligence? Is more intelligence required to make a cell phone than a turkey dinner?

Can I learn anything about you by your creation?

Such as:

Can I learn how many steps you had to take?

Can I learn what your level of intelligence was from what you created?

Can I learn what the purpose of your creation was?

If you are honest in your replies, we can move forward in the discussion.  Otherwise, it will be a a waste of your time.


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

If you have time , join me in "The Trojan Horse of Tithing";

Tithing: Low-Realm, Obsolete & Defunct


----------



## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

Hey , are you busy tonight ? Will you think with me?

Join me in the truth ;

The Abuse of Tithing in the Church System


----------



## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

Hey ,lets swim in the truth a bit more; prepare yourself , Christianity does not teach this ;

The Tithe Lie


----------



## Mudda (Nov 1, 2016)

ding said:


> When you create something, can that creation be used as evidence?


Yes, as evidence of something I created, but maybe also as evidence of a murder committed by someone else. If I take a knife and kill someone with it, they don't accuse the creator of the knife.


ding said:


> When you create something is your creation the realization of your intention? In other words if you set out to make a cell phone do you end up making a turkey dinner?


Not always, you can start out with the intention of writing a certain kind of song and then end up somewhere else. Happens often. Not the exception. Anyways, being an exception is important only in that you have to concede that this universe might be the exception as well. Check mate, brah. 


ding said:


> When you create something, do you usually create it in steps do it in steps?


Again, not always. If I'm drawing a circle, it's one step. And some things that require steps, like writing a song, can be done with the steps in different orders, like, you can write the lyrics before or after the music...


ding said:


> Do more complex creations require more steps? Does it take more steps to create a cell phone than it does a turkey dinner?


I guess I really can't answer this one because I don't know how many steps it takes to build a cell phone vs a turkey dinner. But you're implying that either you know, or it's irrelevant. (a cell phone can be made in Chine at a plant in probably 5 minutes, a turkey dinner takes


ding said:


> Do more complex creations require intelligence? Is more intelligence required to make a cell phone than a turkey dinner?


All creation would require intelligence, I presume. But maybe not? A tomato plant makes a tomato, is it intelligent?


ding said:


> Can I learn anything about you by your creation?



Such as:



ding said:


> Can I learn how many steps you had to take?


 No (except for drawing a circle, lol)



ding said:


> Can I learn what your level of intelligence was from what you created?


 Maybe, but not necessarily.



ding said:


> Can I learn what the purpose of your creation was?


 Not always, ex: people paint pictures that nobody knows what they mean.


----------



## Mudda (Nov 1, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > I already said that anything concrete can be used as evidence, what more are you looking for?
> ...


"From your standpoint there is no next world" I never said that, in fact, didn't I say that there's evidence for re-incarnation?

"but you then proceeded to dismiss that it can be used as evidence for a Creator." No, I said that it's evidence of something, but being evidence of a creator has not been proven. It could be something completely different, like that universes are self-propagating into multi-verses and have no need for a creator god. Or even something else. 
Maybe even the exception to your rule.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

The Christian way of pulling the Old Testament Tithe and forcing it into the New Covenant is " Adding to Scripture."

Simply no doubt about it. Its manipulating the word of God.


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Of course you haven't.  You pay no attention to what missionaries do.  



> As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol.



Ah, therein lies the rub.  We do not control God because He is a sovereign being, not an ATM.  IOW, He decides when and where to act, and is not accountable to man's demands.  If God were an ATM, once you figured out the right buttons to push, you would push them and the goodies would always fall out.  He is not, therefore when Christians pray, they ask, not demand.



> As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?



And again you demand more and more proof.  That is why God doesn't do the whole "Do a trick" method of proving His existence.  The demands for more tricks would never stop, because anyone who didn't see the first one would demand one for themselves, and on it goes.



> But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.



Nope, just pointing out you don't have a strong position from which to mock the experiences of millions of people over thousands of years while giving credence to the experiences of a handful of people over a handful of years.  You believe something by faith, so do millions of Christians.  The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does.

Here's the bottom line.  God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof.  Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him.  You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian way of pulling the Old Testament Tithe and forcing it into the New Covenant is " Adding to Scripture."



You're obsessed with the tithe.  Why is that?


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You are setting two different parameters perhaps without realizing it.  On the one hand, you say you would accept a personal introduction to God, but on the other hand God would have to appear in court so other people could verify His existence for you.


----------



## hobelim (Nov 1, 2016)

hadit said:


> Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?




Any so called personal experience of God based solely on reading the bible about other people who heard from God,  but without any of the attending signs reported,  is merely the product of an unrestrained imagination.

They may be onto something but what they are onto is a decades long decline in mental health and intellectual acuity from which many never recover..


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Today is rip off day at most churches. Some of them don't use collection plates ,they use "Buckets."
> 
> Milking people like cows.


You seem obsessed with the tithe.  Why is that?  Perhaps you should take a step back and realize that no one is forcing you to give.


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

hobelim said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?
> ...


They experience some things you don't, so you simply say they're crazy..


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.
> 
> What's God going to do with money?


God has no need of food, either, yet He expects us to provide food for ourselves and our neighbors.  He has no need of buildings, yet He expects us to provide shelter for ourselves and our neighbors.  He has no need of anything material, but we do.  Our giving is not to benefit God, but to allow Him to use our generosity to bless others.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.
> ...




You  don't get what I am saying , because your not supposed to. Christianity is spiritually blind to this, and will not see it. They are not supposed to be free of the tithe. Their supposed to have a covering over their understanding.

The Tithe is Illegal


----------



## Mudda (Nov 1, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


"You pay no attention to what missionaries do." Everyone hears about missionaries, what proof of an invisible being protecting them is there?

Like I said, praying hasn't been proven to work and if your god only listens to 3 out of 3 billion, then you're pretty much all wasting your time. 3 people out of 3 billion will get well just by chance. No god involved. And if your god only helps 3 out of 3 billion, he's a douche.

As for coming back from the dead, you're shocked that I ask for proof, "And again you demand more and more proof". Not more and more, how about starting with some? Any?

"The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does." Nobody's ever proven god, if you think they have, you're delusional, or can't think critically. And if you still think they have proven god, show me the proof.

If some invisible being wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am. Reading a book of fiction won't get it done. I'm totally open to it, just need something concrete to believe in. That seems pretty fair to me.


----------



## Mudda (Nov 1, 2016)

hadit said:


> You are setting two different parameters perhaps without realizing it.  On the one hand, you say you would accept a personal introduction to God, but on the other hand God would have to appear in court so other people could verify His existence for you.


If god comes to me in person I'll bring him to CNN (or to the Supreme Court, if you prefer), and we'll all be able to see him, touch him, get real answers to questions, see some real miracles or whatever anyone needs to see to prove himself, all on live TV for everyone to see.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

Believers  did not tithe in the New Testament , but Christianity ignores that because its not profitable. They ignore the bible when its convenient.


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Oh I get what you're saying, all right.  Why are you so obsessed with the tithe if it does not effect you at all?


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > You are setting two different parameters perhaps without realizing it.  On the one hand, you say you would accept a personal introduction to God, but on the other hand God would have to appear in court so other people could verify His existence for you.
> ...


And if He goes to you in person while you're completely alone and will not go on CNN, will you believe in Him, or will you insist on having your belief validated by others?

And, of course, I have to ask why you insist on this level of evidence for God's existence while accepting alien abductions with none.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




Its the topic of the thread. What you call obsession , I call pounding the Christians on the head. Its my pleasure ; my calling.


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
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Their own accounts.  You know, those things that you accept from a handful of alien abductees but reject from millions of people throughout thousands of years of human history.



> Like I said, praying hasn't been proven to work and if your god only listens to 3 out of 3 billion, then you're pretty much all wasting your time. 3 people out of 3 billion will get well just by chance. No god involved. And if your god only helps 3 out of 3 billion, he's a douche.



Actually, it does work.  Your problem is you're insisting God has to act like an ATM and submit to man's testing in order to exist.  He is not and does not.  And He helps far more than your limited imagination can conjure up.  You don't insist that someone be able to call down a UFO before you believe his abduction story , do you?



> As for coming back from the dead, you're shocked that I ask for proof, "And again you demand more and more proof". Not more and more, how about starting with some? Any?



You know full well that you would reject any proof out of hand unless God shows up at your door and goes on CNN with you.  I've said it before, God is not interested in doing tricks.



> "The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does." Nobody's ever proven god, if you think they have, you're delusional, or can't think critically. And if you still think they have proven god, show me the proof.



And I've said it before, we have stronger evidence for the existence of God than you have for the existence of UFO's, because we have personal experience, while you have nothing but anecdotes.



> If some invisible being wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am. Reading a book of fiction won't get it done. I'm totally open to it, just need something concrete to believe in. That seems pretty fair to me.


And when you're looking for Him, He'll reveal Himself to you.

So, to recap, evidence required for you to accept God's existence - physical appearance to you personally, followed by appearances on CNN at your command, complete with scientifically verifiable tricks.

Evidence required for you to proclaim the existence of UFO's - a handful of accounts with no verifiable proof whatsoever.

Do I have that about right?


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## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

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It's your obsession, because we've already shown where your argument is pointless.  You're waving a Nerf foam baseball bat, thinking you're having an impact.  You're not.


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## hobelim (Nov 1, 2016)

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No, they experience the exact same thing that I experience when I read the Bible and I am not saying they are crazy. The difference is that when I read the fantastical stories in the Bible with the dead coming out of their graves and Jesus ascending bodily into heaven etc.,  I use well known facts about reality as a constraint on any possible explanation for these accounts, thinking rationally the only way that leads to comprehension,  while others set reality aside just believe without any understanding about what it is that they claim to believe and plunge into fantasyland according to their own unrestrained imaginations and end up hopelessly confused calling good evil and evil good..

But,  then again,  a person who claims to believe in God , eternal life,  and eternal condemnation and proclaims to have an experience of God limited to the words in a book, and then goes about teaching others to worship a human being,  which that same book condemns as evil and punishable by death, even though they have never sought proof of its truth or had a confirming  personal experience of the living God in their entire life,  always being dogmatic about the words and subjects that they never understood,  could qualify as suicidal if not outright crazy.

If you have not made some great errors in your speculations and you are not suicidal or crazy, is your professed faith that a three in one god,  that you never have seen or heard from in your entire life, diddled a virgin and became an edible mangod, a deliberate desecration of the teachings of Jesus and brazen demonstration of rebellion against he who truly is God?


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## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

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Christians can't "Show" me anything, that would be like going back to Egypt. You say I am not having an impact , the thread says 628 replies and 19,163 views ; I'll go with the obvious, rather than pay attention to your envy.

Welcome to thread , see how it grows.


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## Mudda (Nov 1, 2016)

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Aliens have been touched, seen for real, abducted by, and some say aliens intervened in the human development as we were ape-like retards for millions of years and then 50,000 years ago or so, they started doing genetic experiments, because all of a sudden within a short time span, we became the smart species that we are today. God on the other hand, is still based on faith, the belief in something unproven. People with visions of things that aren't real can't be taken as proof, my brother said he was regularly talking to Jesus, and my other bro told him to shut up or they wouldn't let him out of the hospital he was in.
If god comes to me in person, I'll tell that to prove to me that he's real, that he goes and gives a press conference on the White House lawn, so everyone can agree that he's real. Seems pretty fair to me.


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## Mudda (Nov 1, 2016)

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Forget UFOs, there's ton of real proof, they're real, that debate is over.


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Their own accounts is proof of supernatural protection? Ok, you have nothing with this.
As for prayer, there is no scientific proof that it works. Nothing here either.
As for returning from the dead, you have no proof of anything except that people imagined things. Nothing of what they imagined has proven that they are meeting god, going to heaven...
You say you have stronger evidence for the existence of god. Good, put some forward and I'll tell you if you have anything concrete.


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## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

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Your distortion of Scripture and absolute certainty that you know better what people experience than they do leads you inevitably into error.


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## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

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You assert that aliens have been touched, seen for real, and have abducted people, yet there is no evidence beyond anecdote to support that assertion.  When a person accepts that God is for real and enters into a relationship with Him, he has evidence that is personal to him and that other Christians understand.  You have no personal experience with a UFO or an alien, so you are totally believing the whole thing by faith.  Why is it so hard for you to admit that?



> If god comes to me in person, I'll tell that to prove to me that he's real, that he goes and gives a press conference on the White House lawn, so everyone can agree that he's real. Seems pretty fair to me.


When He does do that, it will be to start the ultimate theocracy and faith won't be an issue any more.


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## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

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Welcome to thread , see how it grows.


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## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

Christianity is being passed up and these little off the wall websites , or the weak of the world , are being given the truth ;

The Lie of Tithing


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## ding (Nov 2, 2016)

hadit said:


> Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?



Sure, but not without reason.

Romans 1
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


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## ding (Nov 2, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Yes, as evidence of something I created, but maybe also as evidence of a murder committed by someone else. If I take a knife and kill someone with it, they don't accuse the creator of the knife.



Right.  What you are saying here is that it is evidence, but that the determination of what it means must still be made.  Exactly.  In any trial or dispute there are usually at least two sides who don't agree.  They usually discuss the exact same evidence and each provide expert testimony as to what it means.  One side will argue this way and the other side will argue that way.  In the end, the judge or jury must weight the evidence and the interpretation of the evidence and decide which side has more weight and render a judgement.



Mudda said:


> Not always, you can start out with the intention of writing a certain kind of song and then end up somewhere else. Happens often. Not the exception. Anyways, being an exception is important only in that you have to concede that this universe might be the exception as well. Check mate, brah.



You might want to hold up on that checkmate thingee.   Sure, you started out to write a certain kind of a song and ended up writing a different kind of song.  Ok, great.  It was still a song though, right?  You didn't start out to write a song and end up making a cell phone, right?  Or a turkey dinner, right?  At the end of the day you still wrote a song.  You set out to write a song and you ended up writing a song.  If I start out trying to create a being that knows and creates with 5 limbs for locomotion and end up with a being that knows and creates with 4 limbs for locomotion,  I still ended up creating a being that knows and creates.  It doesn't really matter if he has 5 limbs or 4 limbs.  As it turns out nature has decided 4 limbs is the optimal number of limbs for locomotion.



Mudda said:


> I guess I really can't answer this one because I don't know how many steps it takes to build a cell phone vs a turkey dinner. But you're implying that either you know, or it's irrelevant. (a cell phone can be made in Chine at a plant in probably 5 minutes, a turkey dinner takes



Well, before a cell phone can be built, electricity must be discovered, radio waves must be discovered, the telephone must be invented, manufacturing technology must be developed, computer chips must be invented and millions of lines of complex software code must be written.  To make a turkey dinner all you need is fire, a turkey and some vegetables.



Mudda said:


> Again, not always. If I'm drawing a circle, it's one step. And some things that require steps, like writing a song, can be done with the steps in different orders, like, you can write the lyrics before or after the music...



Sure, but what you have just described are still steps.  But you could take it one step further, right?  Before you could even write that song, you needed to learn how to learn language (i.e. how to speak), you needed to learn music (i.e. how to sing) you needed to learn how to play an instrument, etc.  And if we go back to the cell phone and the turkey dinner analog the same thing applies.  We see that not only are there steps to assembling each, but that a whole new set of different technologies must first be developed before you can even begin assembly steps.  It is just that the number, the magnitude and the complexity is different for each (i.e. turkey dinner vs a cell phone), right?



Mudda said:


> All creation would require intelligence, I presume. But maybe not? A tomato plant makes a tomato, is it intelligent?



All naturally created things are part of creation.  Ultimately each of us must decide for our self if these naturally created things were the product of an intelligent being (i.e. a being that knows and creates).  What we are doing here is using our experiences as beings that know and create as a proxy.  In the case of the tomato plant, you - a being that knows and creates - would have to had the intention of planting, tending and harvesting tomatoes to produce tomatoes.  You would have had to use steps to do it and it would have required intelligence to do so.



Mudda said:


> No (except for drawing a circle, lol)





Mudda said:


> Maybe, but not necessarily.





Mudda said:


> Not always, ex: people paint pictures that nobody knows what they mean.


Ok, given the new information I just gave you about the enabling technologies required to create a cell phone, can you at least tell me if you believe that creating a cell requires more steps and intelligence to create than it does to create a turkey dinner?

Can you tell me what the purpose of a cell phone is?


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## ding (Nov 2, 2016)

Mudda said:


> I never said that, in fact, didn't I say that there's evidence for re-incarnation?


Ok, my bad, you are open to the possiblity that there is a next world but in your world view there is no room for a Creator.  Is that a fair assessment?  Also, there is no final judgement, right?  In other words, whatever you do here has no consequences on being re-incarnated.  Did I capture this correctly?



Mudda said:


> No, I said that it's evidence of something, but being evidence of a creator has not been proven. It could be something completely different, like that universes are self-propagating into multi-verses and have no need for a creator god. Or even something else.
> Maybe even the exception to your rule.


Ok, Fair enough.  What you are saying here is that it is evidence, but that the determination of what it means must still be made. I agree. In any trial or dispute there are usually at least two sides who don't agree. They usually discuss the exact same evidence and each provide expert testimony as to what it means. One side will argue this way and the other side will argue that way. In the end, the judge or jury must weight the evidence and the interpretation of the evidence and decide which side has more weight and render a judgement.  Each of us must decide for ourselves what the evidence means.  I could not agree more.  We have just reached a very important milestone.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

Christians are ripping off your tithes because they are the thief in the night that has enough gall to steal during the day.


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## Mudda (Nov 2, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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> ...



The universe is evidence without a case yet. You have no one to legitimately point the finger at. So we’d not yet be at the trial phase.

As for creating songs, sometimes I start out writing a song and get hungry and end up making dinner (not turkey, I’m a vegetarian). So you’re still in check mate, brah.

And you also believe in evolution with your locomotion story. Not what the bible says…

With the steps, you’re saying everything is a series of steps, like to draw a circle, first two people have to have sex, carry you for 9 months, … lol. Ok, whatever, lol.

With the tomato plant, I don’t have to do anything for tomatoes to appear, they do it naturally in nature. Like the universe could naturally propagate into multi-verses without being directed, of which ours is one of them.

As for the cell vs turkey discussion, ok, I’ll say that some things are more complex than others and could require more steps. And?

The cell phone has many purposes, from talking to games to tracking people to … So what’s the cell’s primary purpose is maybe what you’d ask? Well it depends on the needs of the person. Take me, I don’t even have a cell phone.


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## Mudda (Nov 2, 2016)

ding said:


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"you are open to the possiblity that there is a next world but in your world view there is no room for a Creator.  Is that a fair assessment?" No, that's why I'm an agnostic, I also see no proof that a god isn't possible. 
There could be a final judgement and/or karma might very well carry over into the next life/world. Or not. But the god of the bible, ummm...no. Not a chance, it's just way too made up and absurd. A god who will give you free will but then burn you in a fire forever if you don't choose Him. That's is such a con man's game that I surprised ANYONE fell for it.

As for the evidence and your trial, you have insufficient evidence to go to court and point the finger at someone. I could propose a different scenario(s) based on science that would throw a massive reasonable doubt wrench into your arguments.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

They creep into your purse and wallets unawares ,  they masquerade as "A principle from God",  because they know the people will accept that,. demons know how to deceive ;  they know all they have to do is " Look like God", or appear to be the truth , or seem to be the light and what's right ; they know how to deceive and lead sheep astray, they been doing it for thousands of years.

They know how to pat Christianity on the back and rub that ego;  they are powerful experts  at pacifying the pride of a Christian;

they know how to milk the cow. How to make those collection buckets over flow.


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## hobelim (Nov 2, 2016)

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Nonsense. I am going by what you said that your own contact with God is limited to what you read in the bible.


If you read a book about any other living being in heaven or on earth that you have never seen or met personally, would you claim to know all about them and have a personal relationship with them?

Wouldn't that claim be pure fantasy?

If you read a book about someone else who was kicked by a mule would you go around claiming to have been kicked by a mule?

No?

If you did, wouldn't that claim be a complete lie?



Then why do you claim to have a personal relationship with the living God even though according to your own admission he has never revealed himself to you personally;  you never stood in his presence, seen his glory,  or heard his words??


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## hadit (Nov 2, 2016)

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You are incorrect.  I said that ONE of the ways God communicates with me is through His word.  I also said I do not hear voices in my head.  You do not understand because you have not experienced.


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## Mudda (Nov 2, 2016)

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"His word"? You mean the ones written by men in the bible? Like god would need to communicate through a book. You guys crack me up.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

You try and tell a Christian that the tithe is being used in the wrong manner , its like talking to a wall; they just don't get it! They this get this blank look on their face and you just know its nothing there.


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## hadit (Nov 2, 2016)

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You have faith in far less.


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## hadit (Nov 2, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> You try and tell a Christian that the tithe is being used in the wrong manner , its like talking to a wall; they just don't get it! They this get this blank look on their face and you just know its nothing there.


Maybe that's because you, NOT being a Christian but being obsessed with all things Christian, have no idea what the heck you're talking about.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > You try and tell a Christian that the tithe is being used in the wrong manner , its like talking to a wall; they just don't get it! They this get this blank look on their face and you just know its nothing there.
> ...




I can see me being accused of not knowing what I am talking about ; here's a fella we all heard of describing the state of this greed in Christianity ; Rev. 3:17 , Jesus himself talking , " Because you say  ,I am rich and increased with goods ; and have need of nothing , ( the obvious attitude of a prosperity ministry that has abused the tithe and offerings in the bible until now how its  looked on is perverted),  and you "Don't Know" you are wretched , miserable , poor , "Blind"   and naked." These believers " Don't Know" and are "Blind" to how they view money in the bible ; when you try to show truth to a blind person , they look at you with a blank face.

Just look at how all the responding Christians in this thread are reacting ; they don't get any of the scriptures I show , none of the points I make ; its just not there. They really don't get this ;BECAUSE they are blind and DON'T KNOW they are unaware.

They really , really don't know. They think its something wrong with me.


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## hadit (Nov 2, 2016)

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There is.  You are not a Christian and you have no idea what it means to be one.  You're obsessed with the tithe when it's not an issue for the Christian.  All his wealth belongs to God and His use, not just 10%.  You're the one stuck in the OT way of doing things.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

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I am obsessed with staying on topic of my threads , this one is about Tithes. I am obsessed with the truth . And I am obsessed with Ice Cream.  So I do have obsessions; I am also obsessed with taking naps. Oh and Conan Comic books. I am not a Christian , don't want to be one ;  and I know they don't have a monopoly on belief. I know you think Christianity are the only sheep, because your training is based on selfish biblical propaganda.  Your mind is trained to believe Christianity is a biblical club for members only ; that your group holds a name brand on salvation. You are obsessed with Christianity in a far more sinister way , you think Christianity holds a monopoly on the calling of God. A very dangerous ego in belief , and I like exposing that ego;

I just like doing it

I got nothing better to do.


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## Mudda (Nov 2, 2016)

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As long as you admit that all you have is faith, it's all good.


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## hadit (Nov 2, 2016)

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That's very sad.  

Now, consider that if there really was another way for man to be reconciled to God, Jesus would never have made that sacrifice in the first place.


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## hadit (Nov 2, 2016)

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I have faith and personal experience.  You only have faith.


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## Mudda (Nov 2, 2016)

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Personal delusion is all you have, and faith in an invisible friend that nobody can prove.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

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Christianity has not only perverted the tithe ,they have perverted the truth about salvation and reconciliation ;  Christianity has literally perverted every biblical teaching they have gotten their hands on.


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## ding (Nov 2, 2016)

Mudda said:


> The universe is evidence without a case yet. You have no one to legitimately point the finger at. So we’d not yet be at the trial phase.



No.  If there is a Creator, then what He created would be evidence.  You have already conceded this point.  



Mudda said:


> As for creating songs, sometimes I start out writing a song and get hungry and end up making dinner (not turkey, I’m a vegetarian). So you’re still in check mate, brah.



lol, so you have never created any songs.  All of your songs are vegetarian dinners?  Is that what you are saying.  How embarrassing.  



Mudda said:


> And you also believe in evolution with your locomotion story. Not what the bible says…



Sure it is.  The Bible tells us there was a beginning and that God created Creation (i.e. the universe and everything in it in steps).  

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of in and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning." Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

And since we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create were pre-ordained to exist the moment that space and time came into existence.  



Mudda said:


> With the steps, you’re saying everything is a series of steps, like to draw a circle, first two people have to have sex, carry you for 9 months, … lol. Ok, whatever, lol.



No.  That's a really stupid analogy. Why don't you try that analogy with making a vegetarian dinner and see how you do.  But yes, everything you create will require steps.  That should be self evident.  And the more complex the creation, the more steps and the greater the intelligence requires to do so.  This is really basic stuff.  I actually explained it to a 2nd grader today and she got it right away.



Mudda said:


> With the tomato plant, I don’t have to do anything for tomatoes to appear, they do it naturally in nature. Like the universe could naturally propagate into multi-verses without being directed, of which ours is one of them.



You have tomatoes growing wild in your yard?  Really?  That's awesome.  I don't mind playing this game if you don't mind looking stupid for playing it.  If this was a date, I'd be at third base getting ready to steal home plate.  



Mudda said:


> As for the cell vs turkey discussion, ok, I’ll say that some things are more complex than others and could require more steps. And?



Wow!  That was a surprise.  I almost feel bad for making that last joke.  Almost.  Anyway, thanks for stating the obvious.  Why did it take you that long?



Mudda said:


> The cell phone has many purposes, from talking to games to tracking people to … So what’s the cell’s primary purpose is maybe what you’d ask? Well it depends on the needs of the person. Take me, I don’t even have a cell phone.



Sure it does now, but its primary purpose is a communication device.  So you are that guy?  I had heard there was one guy on the planet that didn't have one.  I envy you.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

The Christian tithe is a mental pressure on the believer to weekly give a percentage of their income or they will not be blessed or be obedient ;  it teaches the believer to give under " Compulsion" ; or pressured obligation , 2 Corinth. 9:7 speaks against this tactic.


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## ding (Nov 2, 2016)

Mudda said:


> No, that's why I'm an agnostic, I also see no proof that a god isn't possible.



You keep saying that but we both know better. 



Mudda said:


> There could be a final judgement and/or karma might very well carry over into the next life/world. Or not. But the god of the bible, ummm...no. Not a chance, it's just way too made up and absurd. A god who will give you free will but then burn you in a fire forever if you don't choose Him. That's is such a con man's game that I surprised ANYONE fell for it.



You have been misinformed.  Clearly, you have no idea what the Bible teaches or means.  Are you sure you were a Catholic?  Before you can even begin to understand what the Bible means, you have to first believe there is a God and that He wants to know you.  Then and only then will you be able to defeat your bias and see what the Bible really is teaching.  You literally have to have your head right.  Wisdom is not given to jackanapes. 



Mudda said:


> As for the evidence and your trial, you have insufficient evidence to go to court and point the finger at someone. I could propose a different scenario(s) based on science that would throw a massive reasonable doubt wrench into your arguments.



Like I said before,ultimately each of us must decide for our self if these naturally created things were the product of an intelligent being (i.e. a being that knows and creates). I can't do it for you.  I can only do it for myself.  Only you can do it for your self.  

I doubt very seriously, that there is any argument you could make that I have not already considered.  I am a master puzzle solver and I was methodical in my search for answers.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

God so loved "The WORLD";; you get that,  the World  , which INCLUDES ALL UNBELIEVERS! That he GAVE his only Son.

God "Gave!" Giving is a Godly thing, and Christianity has perverted one of the methods of biblical giving ;just ripped it all out of context.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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> > The universe is evidence without a case yet. You have no one to legitimately point the finger at. So we’d not yet be at the trial phase.
> ...



“*If* there is a Creator, then what He created would be evidence

To quote you “if”, so you admit that there is no proven creator? Good for you.


“All of your songs are vegetarian dinners? “  I nailed you again, so you attempt a joke. Your concession is duly noted.


“since we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create were pre-ordained to exist the moment that space and time came into existence. “ Totally not what the bible says. Please try again. Or find the passage in the bible that backs up your claim.

“I actually explained it to a 2nd grader today and she got it right away.” Well, maybe when you graduate to the third grade you’ll start to see the errors of your nonsense.


“If this was a date, I'd be at third base getting ready to steal home plate.“ Sorry, I’m not gay. But yes, the universe could naturally propagate into multi-verses without being directed, and you have to admit that it’s a possibility, or are you going to refute this without proof? Again.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Why are you so insistent that your faith in alien abductions is justified while my faith in God is not, when I have more evidence than you do?


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God so loved "The WORLD";; you get that,  the World  , which INCLUDES ALL UNBELIEVERS! That he GAVE his only Son.
> 
> God "Gave!" Giving is a Godly thing, and Christianity has perverted one of the methods of biblical giving ;just ripped it all out of context.


Your problem is not with Christianity, it is with Christ Himself, who clearly and repeatedly stated that many will be rejected by God.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe is a mental pressure on the believer to weekly give a percentage of their income or they will not be blessed or be obedient ;  it teaches the believer to give under " Compulsion" ; or pressured obligation , 2 Corinth. 9:7 speaks against this tactic.


Christian giving and generosity, however, are blessed by God.  Your strange obsession with tithing does generate some curiosity as to why you find it necessary to complain.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Your problem is not with Christianity, it is with Christ Himself, who clearly and repeatedly stated that many will be rejected by God.


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## hobelim (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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Exactly!

Thats why you have never seen or heard even one single word from the living God in your entire life.

You are an idolator and a murderer, a perjurer and a deceiver who has been abandoned to his folly.

Unless YOU repent YOU will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.




"Outside are dogs, sorcerers, immoral people, *murderers, idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices deceit."*  revelation 22:15.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > hadit said:
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What evidence? Everyone keeps going on about their evidence of god, yet no one puts anything forward. So do you have proof of god or not? Put up or shut up.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > hadit said:
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All hearsay, as the bible was written long after the events occurred.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

hobelim said:


> hadit said:
> 
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> > Mickiel said:
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You claim to know a lot about me.  Was that you I saw lurking in the shadows?



> Unless YOU repent YOU will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God and I have reconciled.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
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> > Mickiel said:
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Actually, it was not.  The Apostle Paul, for just one example, references people who were still alive at the time he wrote who had seen the resurrected Jesus.  Luke traveled with Paul and wrote one of the Gospels as well as the book of Acts.  You might want to revisit your blanket assertion that you use to avoid dealing with the Scriptures.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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The earliest fragments of the bible are dated to several generations after the facts. 
Anyways Paul's writing of people who said they saw the resurrection is actually pure hearsay on its own.


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## hobelim (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
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Nonsense. You don't even have an inkling that your professed belief and openly defiant worship of Jesus as if he was God himself in the flesh is not only irrational but impossible according to the teachings of the entire Bible, a practice openly condemned under penalty of death - irrevocable under covenant - not to mention a direct contradiction of numerous quotes attributed to Jesus himself that irrefutably shows that Jesus neither thought of himself as God nor claimed to be God. See; John 20:17


Reconciliation between you and God is impossible unless you first stop doing that which has caused your separation from God and descent into the realm of the dead in the first place.

Whatever you do don't go to confession and talk to a priest about having impure thoughts about Mary Margaret and then kneel before and eat a lifeless matzo for spiritual life to show Jesus just how sorry you are for your sins.........


I heard that both Jesus and he who truly is God,  can get a little testy with hypocrites.


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## Mickiel (Nov 3, 2016)

Christians don't give , they take ;  they are taking peoples money and God is allowing that ;  and they will take away your free citizenship in heaven if God allowed that , but he won't. They will take away your religion, and take away your understanding of the bible. They take these things by the violence of their own selfish belief; they TAKE the Kingdom of God by violence.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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Irrelevant.  You are aware, are you not, that the only way to preserve written information thousands of years ago was to very carefully copy an original because originals decayed and got lost or destroyed?  Even today, as digital storage technology changes, information must be copied to new media to maintain its availability.  If we did not do that, we would have data on tapes that no one could read because the drives are no longer manufactured.  You could then accurately claim that "the oldest copies we have of the information are only a few years old", when the original information was recorded long ago.



> Anyways Paul's writing of people who said they saw the resurrection is actually pure hearsay on its own.


You're basically conceding the point there.  Had he written hundreds of years after the fact as you have repeatedly stated, he would hardly have said eyewitnesses were still alive.

Now, the evidence for alien abductions is totally anecdotal, hearsay, after the fact, and from a handful of people over the last several decades.  No one can show a UFO and no one can call for one to appear and take them for a ride.  Yet you maintain your faith in them while totally rejecting accounts from millions of people over thousands of years who have reported encounters with God.  Not sure why it's such an obsession with you when you clearly understand what it means to take something on faith.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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Aliens are just a fun thing I follow and are very likely to exist, imo, and they're nothing that important to me. You live your life by what an invisible superbeing in another dimension tells you to do, and then you call faith because faith is the belief in something unproven, and you still believe anyways. BIG difference.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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Not irrelevant that the earliest fragment of the bible is dated to several generations after the fact. What I'll concede is that maybe the earlier copies have yet to be found, but at this point in time I just can't make that leap with nothing. That's why I'm agnostic, no solid proof either way has ever been put forward, but if someone comes up with some either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Can't be any fairer than that.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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Well, faith and personal experience.  A lot more than anecdotes about alien abductions.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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Well, that and God going on CNN, right?  Of course, if you think about it, why would He limit Himself to a TV channel?


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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Faith means no proof, so you have nothing with that, and what personal experience? God cured you when you got the flu?


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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I thought you were going to say, well, he's invisible, so maybe he's already been on CNN, and declare victory.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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An alien abductee has the personal experience of being abducted, correct?  I have personal experience with God.  You can't understand it so I'm not going to bother trying to explain it to you, but Christians do understand.  Matthew 7:6 and all.


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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Why would I say that?  That sounds like something someone would say who has no idea what they're talking about.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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Can't your invisible friend do everything? Even go on CNN without you knowing?


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## hadit (Nov 3, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
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Again, why would He?  He doesn't care about CNN.  I might as well ask you if invisible UFO's are abducting invisible sheep.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
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You're right, god's not interested in reaching everyone. My bad.


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## Mickiel (Nov 3, 2016)

Christianity is ripping off believers of the tithe, the ministers know full well the tithe is obsolete;

they just know the members don't know. And their afraid to loose their pay checks.


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## Mudda (Nov 3, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christianity is ripping off believers of the tithe, the ministers know full well the tithe is obsolete;
> 
> they just know the members don't know. And their afraid to loose their pay checks.


You've said that already about 500 times. Please


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## Mickiel (Nov 3, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christianity is ripping off believers of the tithe, the ministers know full well the tithe is obsolete;
> 
> they just know the members don't know. And their afraid to loose their pay checks.




Were moving into a time before the time ;  were moving into a time that the truth will not be recognized , and one reason it won't be recognized , is because the world has been lied to so much. Religion thought they were teaching truth ,Jer. 16:19" Surely our Fathers have inherited lies, vanity and things of no profit." And Christianity has transferred the bulk of those lies into this age.

Its been nothing short of classic.


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Remember that Christianity is chosen to deliver a perverted form of  the truth. In their minds , they are doing what's right. So the way they teach tithing , is just right in their spirit ;  they do it , because they really "See no harm in it." They see no harm in teaching givers that they are cursed with a curse if they don't tithe. That they are wrong if their giving is not 10 percent. This " See no harm" is a spirit , its been dropped into their consciousness.

They " See no harm" in Christmas.
They " See no harm," in Easter.
They " See no harm" in the Trinity.
They " See no harm " in eternal separation from God.
And that spirit has affected their entire belief system , its perverted how they view scripture.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> To quote you “if”, so you admit that there is no proven creator? Good for you.


lol, no.  I believe there is a Creator and that what He has created can be used as evidence for His existence.  You at first argued that tangible evidence couldn't be used as physical evidence, then you changed your position that tangible items could be used as evidence but just not as evidence for a Creator. The you finally accepted that  tangible items could be used for evidence for a Creator IF a Creator did exist.  All along the way I have made it clear that I am not trying to prove to you God's existence even though you are chomping at the bit for me to do so.  I have told you at least 5 times that I am only discussing the universal attributes of evidence and how evidence can be used.  Now do you understand?


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Remember it is the Christian "Spirit" to enter into even how you deal with your money It is a " Spirit of Control" , they want to control even how you budget your income. This same Spirit wants to control your very salvation ; even how you worship.

This is a powerful spirit , its nothing to play with. Its damaging the very understanding and lives of people.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> I nailed you again, so you attempt a joke. Your concession is duly noted.


I don't know how you nailed me again, brother.  You are not making any sense at all.  You were the one who said that you started out to write a song and ended up making a vegetarian dinner, lol.  I was pointing out using humor that just because you stopped to make a dinner, that didn't mean that you didn't go back and finish the song or that you don't always end up making vegetarian dinners.  I'm sorry if my joke went over your head.  Common sense tells us that when we set out to create something, AS A RULE, what we create ends up being what we set out to create.  Does it turn out exactly like we intended?  No, not always, but if you set out to write a song, you don't end up making a turkey dinner.  If your position was not so weak, you would not have to resort to making foolish arguments.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Totally not what the bible says. Please try again. Or find the passage in the bible that backs up your claim.



I disagree.  The story of Genesis is allegorical.  God did not magically create the universe in one step.  He set the rules of nature and let nature take its course.  You cannot dispute that the laws of nature are such that at the moment space and time came into existence, beings that know and create were pre-destined to evenyually arise.  Here is the proof you have been looking for.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Well, maybe when you graduate to the third grade you’ll start to see the errors of your nonsense.



Maybe.  And maybe one day, you will realize that the exact moment you lost this argument was when you admitted that tangible items could be used as evidence.  The reality is that the Bible correctly explains that the universe had a beginning and was created in steps.  Science tells us that the universe did have a beginning and what we see today is a result of the evolution of matter and was a process that was done in steps.  Subatomic particles evolved into hydrogen and helium.  Hydrogen and helium formed cosmic structures.  Supernovas created the other elements.  Chemical evolution created all the compounds.  Life mad the leap from inorganic matter to organic matter.  Life made the leap from single cells to multi cells and to eventually beings that know and create.  The laws of nature came into existence at the time space and time were created.  Those laws predestined that beings that know and create would eventually arise.  Check mate.


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## hobelim (Nov 4, 2016)

ding said:


> The story of Genesis is allegorical.




If the story of genesis is allegorical what is the story actually about?


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Sorry, I’m not gay. But yes, the universe could naturally propagate into multi-verses without being directed, and you have to admit that it’s a possibility, or are you going to refute this without proof? Again.



I just got to home plate.

The Bible correctly explains that the universe had a beginning and was created in steps. Science tells us that the universe did have a beginning and what we see today is a result of the evolution of matter and was a process that was done in steps. Subatomic particles evolved into hydrogen and helium. Hydrogen and helium formed cosmic structures. Supernovas created the other elements. Chemical evolution created all the compounds. Life mad the leap from inorganic matter to organic matter. Life made the leap from single cells to multi cells and to eventually beings that know and create. The laws of nature came into existence at the time space and time were created. Those laws predestined that beings that know and create would eventually arise. Check mate.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > The story of Genesis is allegorical.
> ...


It covers many things.  The key one is that man knows right from wrong and when he violates it he doesn't abandon the concept he rationalizes that he did not violate it.


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## hobelim (Nov 4, 2016)

ding said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
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That is one thing conveyed. And I agree that the story is allegorical.

My question is, since the story is allegorical then it is not about the creation of the universe,the solar system, the the sky above or the earth below..

What is it about?

In other words when it says that God said, "let there be light" and there was light, what does the light that was established on earth represent??


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## Mudda (Nov 4, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > To quote you “if”, so you admit that there is no proven creator? Good for you.
> ...


"I believe there is a Creator and that what He has created can be used as evidence for His existence." You just made a claim, bet you can't prove it. In other words, you believe in a fairy tale. Not good.


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## Mudda (Nov 4, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Totally not what the bible says. Please try again. Or find the passage in the bible that backs up your claim.
> ...


Ok, so you admit the bible isn't the description of true facts. Good for you.

"beings that know and create were pre-destined to evenyually arise", I bet it was also pre-destined that the Cubs won the World Series. Hindsight is 20/20.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I did prove it.


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## Mudda (Nov 4, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I’m not gay. But yes, the universe could naturally propagate into multi-verses without being directed, and you have to admit that it’s a possibility, or are you going to refute this without proof? Again.
> ...


So you decide not to refute my point. Good for you.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
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No.  That's not what I wrote, if you had better arguments you wouldn't need to keep misstating what I wrote.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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I did refute it.  The story of Genesis is allegorical. God did not magically create the universe in one step. He set the rules of nature and let nature take its course. You cannot dispute that the laws of nature are such that at the moment space and time came into existence, beings that know and create were pre-destined to eventually arise. Here is the proof you have been looking for.  Maybe one day, you will realize that the exact moment you lost this argument was when you admitted that tangible items could be used as evidence. The reality is that the Bible correctly explains that the universe had a beginning and was created in steps. Science tells us that the universe did have a beginning and what we see today is a result of the evolution of matter and was a process that was done in steps. Subatomic particles evolved into hydrogen and helium. Hydrogen and helium formed cosmic structures. Supernovas created the other elements. Chemical evolution created all the compounds. Life mad the leap from inorganic matter to organic matter. Life made the leap from single cells to multi cells and to eventually beings that know and create. The laws of nature came into existence at the time space and time were created. Those laws predestined that beings that know and create would eventually arise. Check mate.


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## hadit (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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He wouldn't need CNN.  You're thinking in limited human terms.


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Exposing the lies and speaking the truth. The sister who did this site  is cold blooded ;

The Tithing Hoax


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## Mudda (Nov 4, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > hadit said:
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He doesn't need CNN when he's hiding. Is He a fraidy cat?


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## hadit (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
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> > Mudda said:
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Hardly.  He's giving you free rein to ignore Him.  If He did everything you insisted on Him doing to prove Himself, you would have no choice but to believe in Him.  Basically, you're trying to get Him to make the choice for you.


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## Mudda (Nov 4, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
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What I'm saying is that I'm ready to receive god, if a god there is. But I'm going to need at least a little SOMETHING to sink my teeth into! Geez, that seems pretty fair.


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Hey , while your reading ; come and let us reason together ;


The Origin of Tithing


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## hadit (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
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All you have to do is take the first step, Thomas.  I'm sure you'll get the reference.


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## hobelim (Nov 4, 2016)

hadit said:


> Hardly. He's giving you free rein to ignore Him. If He did everything you insisted on Him doing to prove Himself, you would have no choice but to believe in Him. Basically, you're trying to get Him to make the choice for you.





hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




The first step was when Jesus lets him stick his fingers in his wounds... in person...

Anything like that ever happen to you?


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Ask Jim Baker about the Christian Tithe rip off ';

FOR JIM AND TAMMY BAKKER, EXCESS WIPED OUT A RAPID CLIMB TO SUCCESS


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## hadit (Nov 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Hardly. He's giving you free rein to ignore Him. If He did everything you insisted on Him doing to prove Himself, you would have no choice but to believe in Him. Basically, you're trying to get Him to make the choice for you.
> ...


No, I'm blessed.  I'm sure you'll get the reference.


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## Mudda (Nov 4, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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But here is the evidence you have been so sorely seeking.

The story of Genesis is allegorical. God did not magically create the universe in one step. He set the rules of nature and let nature take its course. You cannot dispute that the laws of nature are such that at the moment space and time came into existence, beings that know and create were pre-destined to eventually arise. Here is the proof you have been looking for. Maybe one day, you will realize that the exact moment you lost this argument was when you admitted that tangible items could be used as evidence. The reality is that the Bible correctly explains that the universe had a beginning and was created in steps. Science tells us that the universe did have a beginning and what we see today is a result of the evolution of matter and was a process that was done in steps. Subatomic particles evolved into hydrogen and helium. Hydrogen and helium formed cosmic structures. Supernovas created the other elements. Chemical evolution created all the compounds. Life mad the leap from inorganic matter to organic matter. Life made the leap from single cells to multi cells and to eventually beings that know and create. The laws of nature came into existence at the time space and time were created. Those laws predestined that beings that know and create would eventually arise. Check mate.


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## ding (Nov 4, 2016)




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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Welcome to the truth ,welcome to the dethroning  of Christianity.


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## hobelim (Nov 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Welcome to the truth ,welcome to the dethroning  of Christianity.




Maybe so, but don't get all smug about it just yet. the wheels are still in motion and much is yet to come.

I heard that at the resurrection,  the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.....


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## hobelim (Nov 5, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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Sure you're blessed, just like some foul and loathsome creature who has made his way into a garbage dump celebrating his good fortune while feasting on rotting trash....


"This, He told me,  is the curse which goes out over all the land; for by the writing on one side, every thief shall be swept clean away and by the writing on the other side every perjurer shall be swept clean away. I have sent it out, the Lord of Hosts has said, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of the man who has perjured himself in my name. It shall stay inside that house and demolish it, timbers and stones and all."


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to the truth ,welcome to the dethroning  of Christianity.
> ...




Welcome to the beginnings of the dethroning of religion ;  its happening allover , just being ignored.


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## ding (Nov 5, 2016)

Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people's allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before putting their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation's Christian heritage. 
Dr. Ron Paul


The early thinkers of our country were convinced that the state _must _be held accountable to the authority of a higher ethical and spiritual standard – the “Natural Law” or the “Law of Nature’s God.

*George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796*

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens...”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.



*George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796*

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

_The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38. _


*John Adams, “Letter to Zabdiel Adams, Philadelphia, 21 June 1776”*

 “Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.” John Adams Letter of June 21, 1776, quoted in The Wall Builder Report, Summer 1993

_The Works of John Adams – Second President of theUnited States_, ed. Charles Francis Adams (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1854), 9:401.


*Samuel Adams Letter to John Trumbull, October 16, 1778*

“Religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness.”

Paul H. Smith, Gerard W. Gawalt, Rosemary Fry Plakes, et. al., _Letters of Delegates to Congress, 1774-1789, volume 11, October 1 1778-January 31 1779._


*Patrick Henry Letter to Archibald Blair, January 8, 1799*


“The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor…and this alone, that renders us invincible.”

Moses Coit Tyler, _Patrick Henry _(New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1898; reprint, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1962), 409.


*Benjamin Rush Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798*

“The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

 (Philadelphia: Thomas and Samuel F. Bradford, 1798), 8.


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

The tithe is just another way for the Christian ministry to choke its members and increase their burden.


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

Study with me, read your bible like you really want to know the truth;

The Tithe is Abolished!


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## hobelim (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Sheesh. Where have you been for the past 2000 years? 

This is not the beginning, this is the end.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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Its the beginning of the end. Even the end could take years to compound.


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## hobelim (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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No, the very people that you are condemning will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye....then,  suddenly,  there will appear a new heaven and a new earth.

Don't worry, be happy.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
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I have never condemned anyone in this thread or any thread; I request that you show me where I condemned anyone. This I got to see!

I believe in Universal Salvation ,  how can I condemn anyone? Know who your talking to.


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## hobelim (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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If you believe in universal salvation why does it bother you at all if people tithe?

If you are not condemning anyone whats with the accusation that people are being ripped off?


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## guno (Nov 6, 2016)

ding said:


> Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people's allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before putting their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation's Christian heritage.
> Dr. Ron Paul
> 
> 
> ...



And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate | Addicting Info | The Knowledge You Crave


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## ding (Nov 6, 2016)

guno said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people's allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before putting their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation's Christian heritage.
> ...


So then you believe it is a ridiculous proposition that virtue is the ultimate organizing principle and that without virtue there can be no liberty or freedom?  Did I understand YOU correctly?  Because if so, I will be forced to ridicule your beliefs just as TJ suggested.  Shall we have a go at it?


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > hobelim said:
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People tithing does not bother me , tithing is not wrong. What bothers me is the way a religion teaches tithing to its members and lies about it being a new covenant principle , which it is not.  Tithing is not an obligation or a command from God, to teach it is , is just an out right sin. To teach that one is cursed if they don't tithe is a sin.  So it bothers me when a people are taught lies that burdens their lives. It bothers me when people are taught that God will  only bless you if you give money to a church. That is a rip off.

Again I ask you , show me where I condemned anyone.


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## hobelim (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Again I ask you , show me where I condemned anyone.




"Tithing is not an obligation or a command from God, to teach it is , is just an out right sin. To teach that one is cursed if they don't tithe is a sin."


You are very confused.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Again I ask you , show me where I condemned anyone.
> ...




I'll take that to mean you cannot show me where I condemned anyone , you just falsely accused me and can't admit it. And then claim I am confused??

go figure


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## hobelim (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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You claim that you don't condemn anyone then you say that those who teach tithing is an obligation is an outright sin and those who teach that those who do not tithe are cursed is also a sin.. 

That, my confused friend, is a condemnation...


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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So you would rather create wrong thinking , rather than admit you were wrong ;  wow , that  is a dangerous way of being.


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## vasuderatorrent (Nov 6, 2016)

This thread makes about as much sense as multiplying a moose by chocolate gasoline balls.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> This thread makes about as much sense as multiplying a moose by chocolate gasoline balls.




The thread has 738 replies and 20,842 views , you think I care what you have to say about it?

Welcome to thread , see how it grows!


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## ding (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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Sure you have.  You have condemned all Christians for no other reason than they are Christians.


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## ding (Nov 6, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> This thread makes about as much sense as multiplying a moose by chocolate gasoline balls.


Finally... we agree on something.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

Interesting how they try to belittle this thread , yet they live on it.

Welcome to thread , see  how it grows.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Interesting how they try to belittle this thread , yet they live on it.
> 
> Welcome to thread , see  how it grows.




See how the Christian church money scandals grows ;

List of Christian evangelist scandals | Break These Endless Lies


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## vasuderatorrent (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The thread has 738 replies



Are you sure?  I bet the number is closer to 450.  Replying to yourself is not a reply.


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## vasuderatorrent (Nov 6, 2016)

I have counted the Mickiel posts from pages 1-40.  So far 158 post belong to Mickiel.  If Mickiel, ding, hobelim, hadit would stop posting on this thread for 14 days then this thread will disappear within 4 days until Mickiel digs it back up again.  Anybody want to bet on that?  Tomorrow I will post on this thread when I finish counting how many of the posts in this thread belong to Mickiel.  If ding, hobelim and hadit are not sock puppets for Mickiel then I bet this thread will disappear just by Mickiel refusing to post for 14 days.

This thread is only at the top because Mickiel keeps necroing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.  If Mickiel stops then this thread dies just like the other threads.   I'll bet anybody.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > The thread has 738 replies
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Shave the points as much as you wish, whatever pacifies your head ;  whatever you need it to be in order to reduce it from its current state in reality.  Your welcome no matter what you change the stats to;  the thread is growing no matter what its doing in your world.

If you manage to shrink it , I have other threads that are growing. Your welcome to those as well.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> I have counted the Mickiel posts from pages 1-40.  So far 158 post belong to Mickiel.  If Mickiel, ding, hobelim, hadit would stop posting on this thread for 14 days then this thread will disappear within 4 days until Mickiel digs it back up again.  Anybody want to bet on that?  Tomorrow I will post on this thread when I finish counting how many of the posts in this thread belong to Mickiel.  If ding, hobelim and hadit are not sock puppets for Mickiel then I bet this thread will disappear just by Mickiel refusing to post for 14 days.
> 
> This thread is only at the top because Mickiel keeps necroing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.  If Mickiel stops then this thread dies just like the other threads.   I'll bet anybody.




Explain to us why you are reading it.


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## vasuderatorrent (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
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Will you accept the 14 day challenge just to see what happens to this thread?


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## vasuderatorrent (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> > I have counted the Mickiel posts from pages 1-40.  So far 158 post belong to Mickiel.  If Mickiel, ding, hobelim, hadit would stop posting on this thread for 14 days then this thread will disappear within 4 days until Mickiel digs it back up again.  Anybody want to bet on that?  Tomorrow I will post on this thread when I finish counting how many of the posts in this thread belong to Mickiel.  If ding, hobelim and hadit are not sock puppets for Mickiel then I bet this thread will disappear just by Mickiel refusing to post for 14 days.
> ...



I'm not.  I'm just pissed and annoyed that it still at the top.  I'm reading some of it but not the posts.  I'm not going to the links either.


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## ding (Nov 6, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> I have counted the Mickiel posts from pages 1-40.  So far 158 post belong to Mickiel.  If Mickiel, ding, hobelim, hadit would stop posting on this thread for 14 days then this thread will disappear within 4 days until Mickiel digs it back up again.  Anybody want to bet on that?  Tomorrow I will post on this thread when I finish counting how many of the posts in this thread belong to Mickiel.  If ding, hobelim and hadit are not sock puppets for Mickiel then I bet this thread will disappear just by Mickiel refusing to post for 14 days.
> 
> This thread is only at the top because Mickiel keeps necroing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.  If Mickiel stops then this thread dies just like the other threads.   I'll bet anybody.


Sock puppets?  Really?  You had me at hello, but now I am having to fight the urge to tick you off.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
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No, I will not accept your challenge. The Christians like to throw me off pace in my threads just to slowdown the attack on their seduction ; I think your doing this because you need to make yourself appear larger than you are.


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## vasuderatorrent (Nov 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
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Ah shucks.  You figured me out.  If you quit posting on this thread for 14 days then it will go away.  You know that.  Don't you?  You may like to pretend but I can tell that you are not the dumbest person in the world.  You know for a fact that if you quit posting on this thread then it dies.  You know that.  That's why you refuse to take the 14 day challenge.  You already know this thread is gone without you pumping it up every two hours. You know that.  I can tell that you are not dumb.


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## Mickiel (Nov 7, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
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I don't want it to go away just yet ;; I'll control it , not you. Your like the Christians , you really want me gone; but it won't be you who decides.


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## Mickiel (Nov 8, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
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Your just another voice trying to silence mine.


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## Mickiel (Nov 8, 2016)

See how money became a religion ;

The Universal Prayer: How Money Became the World's First Shared Religion


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## Spare_change (Nov 8, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> My parents are a perfect example of the damage tithing does to low income people. My Dad was a Staff Sergeant and could ill afford giving away 10% of his income yet he did. He called it "Seed Money". They were constantly in debt and tithing was a major reason why.




Don't give 10% to the church .... but, of course, it's okay if the government takes 30% of it.


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## Mickiel (Nov 8, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> MarathonMike said:
> 
> 
> > My parents are a perfect example of the damage tithing does to low income people. My Dad was a Staff Sergeant and could ill afford giving away 10% of his income yet he did. He called it "Seed Money". They were constantly in debt and tithing was a major reason why.
> ...




What percentage of the churches of the world are teaching the truth;  in my view , less than 1%;   ... 99% of them are teaching deception,  so none of that money is being used by the right churches.


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## Spare_change (Nov 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Spare_change said:
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How many governments are telling the truth? In my view, none ... 

Next time I volunteer at Catholic Charities to provide meals to the homeless, I'll tell the "customers" you said they shouldn't be getting church money.

In short, other than it being your deluded opinion, your whole premise doesn't make any damn sense at all.


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## Mickiel (Nov 9, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
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You would be lying if you told them that ,I never said who should not get money. I said the churches getting all the money , are not teaching  biblical truth, they are teaching tradition. A deceived church can only teach deception. In Rev. 12:9 the whole world has been deceived ,which means all the churches in it. In short , I gave a biblical view , not my own opinion. One reason WHY God is returning, is because ALL the churches of the world have been deceived.

The whole premise of God's returning , is because human churches have failed. I understand this may not make sense to you.


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## Spare_change (Nov 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Believe me, the rantings of the biblically illiterate makes no sense whatsover to me ... but then, I've actually read and studied it.


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## Mickiel (Nov 9, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
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Well I understand your "Need" to insult me and call me names , I hold no such needs in me. I can do this without insulting the personage of people. Or without using the bible. Churches use money like people use insults ,  to cover up their own faults.


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## Spare_change (Nov 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Spare_change said:
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I neither "need" to insult you or call you names ... in fact, I did neither. Your performance should be judged on its own merit, not my observation. It will still be found wanting.

The fact that you are biblically illiterate is your choice, not my accusation. I strongly suggest that you refrain from reference to the bible.


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## Mickiel (Nov 9, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
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When a person insults you and does not even realize it, its not good to even have speaks with them. I will not refrain from reference of the bible ,I deny your request.

Peace on your journey.


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## Spare_change (Nov 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Psst --- 'speaks' is a verb ... you can't have 'speaks' .. a person 'speaks' ... 

As for the rest, your argument has no content (it's simply whining), and thus, will be ignored.


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## Mickiel (Nov 9, 2016)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
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Well that is good news , thank you for ignoring me, I would rather that than be continually insulted by a person who is unaware of doing it.

I only wish you would start now if you don't mind.

Peace out.


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

Christians have been flat out biblically wrong about tithing being a Practiced biblical principle in the  New Testament; the biblical tithe in the Old Covenant was a direct product of the land , never money! Never do you find first century believers tithing in the  New Testament ,just as you never see them sacrificing goats and bulls to cover their sins. The use of the tithe or the tenth ,  was resurrected in the church in the eight century and the Christian tithe became a fusion  Old Testament practice  and a common system of land leasing in medieval Europe.  That evolved into a legal required offering by the end of the tenth century.  Tithing became a fixed obligation.

Just like the common Christian is completely oblivious of this error, there are  more biblical errors that have crept in unawares, that Christianity just cannot see.

This deception is just too well done for God not to be involved.


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## hobelim (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Just like the common Christian is completely oblivious of this error, there are  more biblical errors that have crept in unawares, that Christianity just cannot see.
> 
> This deception is just too well done for God not to be involved.




"Therefore God puts them under a delusion which works upon them to believe the lie, so that they may all be brought to judgment, all who do not believe the truth but make sinfulness a deliberate choice."  






I have not come to bring peace but a sword................






"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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So, something bothers you that apparently doesn't bother God, since you believe salvation is universal and inevitable.  Is that about the size of it?  Sounds like you should be criticizing God because you think He's not condemning those who sin against Him and His people.


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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Salvation is universal , it certainly is not fragmented ;  Christianity is fragmented.  That is about the size of it , its a done deal.  God does not condemn people; and what's this mess about " Sinning against the people of God?" Goodness , you got it bad man. Christianity has invaded your mind beyond repair in this life.


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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Yet you condemn people that you say God will not condemn.  When did your judgement become superior to God's?


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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I have never condemned anyone , your giving false statements , to put it lightly. There is no condemnation in universal salvation; simply show us anywhere I have condemned anyone ;  this I got to see. Produce me condemning anyone , back up what you claim.

Christianity  does all the condemning. Your so use to condemning people , that you think everyone does it.


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
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Christianity is made up of people, correct?  Or are you going to admit that Christians are actually reading the Word and obeying it without other Christians encouraging them to live certain ways and do certain things?  if you condemn "Christianity" for telling Christians to give to their churches and you claim that message is not from God, you're really condemning the people, are you not?

I'll repeat the question.  When did your judgement become superior to God's?


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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Evasion.  Show me where I condemned anyone. Your talking out the side of your mouth ;  for the third time , you claim I condemned people , show that to me and quit making up nonsense.


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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A quote you wrote:

"Christianity does all the condemning".

1.  Who is "Christianity"?
2.  Do you condemn "Christianity" for perverting what you think is the truth?


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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Obviously you lied when you claimed I condemn people , because you can't show me where I did. Now to evade your lies , your throwing meaningless stuff at me to change the focus off of your lies.

Your too late ,I have you.


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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You're not addressing what you said.  You have repeatedly condemned "Christianity" for making Christians do things you think are not Biblical.  I have simply made you face the truth of what you are really saying.  The fact that you refuse to answer the question, 'Who is "Christianity"?' reveals the truth.  Since "Christianity" is made up of people, and you continue to condemn "Christianity", you are in fact condemning people.  Now, you can address what I've pointed out to you or you can try to deflect, or you can try to insult me, or any number of obfuscations, but none of them will change reality.


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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Translation ;  you can't show the people anywhere in thread that I condemned anyone.

What's it feel like Christian , being caught in a lie?

What's it feel like?


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
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> > Mickiel said:
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Who is "Christianity"?  Answer that and we'll talk.


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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Oh no Christian , admit your lie and we will talk. You don't control this thread.


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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Not my problem.  I identified where you condemned people and you don't want to talk about it.  I wear the title of Christian, moreover, with pride.


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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Well you have proven one thing , you lie with pride.

What's it feel like being caught in your lie? Then you get caught in a lie and reveal to us you would rather remain a liar than admit to being wrong about something ;  a very dangerous behavior.

I have you.  What's it feel like being had?


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## hadit (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

Hello?

Interesting Christian tactic ;  get backed into a corner and get the truth requested  from you; but , IF you admit to the truth then you would also be admitting to lying. Rather than confess to being wrong , you would rather be accused of lying, just to keep a phony reflection of truth.

Christians are some cold blooded people.


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## Mickiel (Nov 12, 2016)

Listen ,when a church uses the bible to manipulate money from its members ;  that church and its leaders ,members and public it serves are all deceived.  Are all part of a massive deceptive crackdown by satan against the church of God. Are ALL guilty!

Are ALL gullible  and ALL part of an elaborate hoax!  ALL part of the same tangled web, and are ALL players in a very stunning game of life!


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## Mickiel (Nov 13, 2016)

The US Christian yearly Tithe is around 5 Trillion
In the world around 10 trillion;

21 Fascinating Tithing Statistics - HRFnd


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## Campbell (Nov 13, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> 
> 10 percent of your total income is a Christian thing.



Horse Shit! The people who wrote the bible came up with that 10% thing. What a great deal for them!! One thing they definitely weren't........Christian


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## Mickiel (Mar 19, 2017)

Campbell said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > In the Jewish tradition, if you gave 1/40th, you were a mensch (great guy), if you gave 1/50th, you were considered average, and if you gave 1/60th, you were considered stingy.
> ...



Your right , the bible was not written by Christians.


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## onefour1 (Mar 19, 2017)

*Malachi 3:7-10*
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

*Luke 11:42*
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and *not to leave the other* *undone*.


*Matthew 23:23*
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, ahypocrites! for ye pay btithe of mint and canise and cummin, and have domitted the weightier matters of the law, ejudgment, fmercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and *not to leave the other* *undone*.

Tithing is not only a commandment in the Christian faith but also in the Jewish faith.  Abraham paid tithes to Melchezedek.

*Genesis 14:18-20*
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

*Hebrews 7:4-10*
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

*Genesis 28:22*
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

*Numbers 18:21-28*
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
25 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.
27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.
28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lord’s heave offering to Aaron the priest.


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## HaShev (Mar 19, 2017)

onefour1 said:


> *Malachi 3:7-10*
> 7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
> 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
> 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
> ...



HaShev (i.e.Return) unto me, and I will 
HaShev (i.e.return) unto you, saith
 the Lord (master=top-arch)
 of hosts (malakh).
 But ye said, Wherein shall
 we return (in Hebrew=HaShev)?
Answer the city in his name=Shalem.

You mention it in Genesis but Melchizedek is not a name, it's a descriptive title that is describing the same as arch malakh and head Kohanim(host)-High Priest of the Mikdash.  Melchi=King
 Zadok or tsadek=righteous-justified =(validated king aka head priest).
Which is what it says Melchizedek is the head priest of Shalem.

The dead sea scrolls shows us Archangel (top malakh) Michael known as
 "head of the hosts" is termed Melchizedek.
Just another descriptive term for the same role as head Kohanim.
Judaism and Islam both call Michael the head priest(Imam) 
head of hosts(head prayer leader).
Hence the Temple (MIKdash) in his name in the city (Shalem)in his name.


----------



## kjw47 (Mar 19, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




Ot was written by men of God--Nt was written by followers of Jesus, who are Christian.


----------



## Mickiel (Mar 20, 2017)

kjw47 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Campbell said:
> ...




Christianity was created in Antioch; some of the NT writers can be considered Christian, but not all. John, the writer of Revelations , was not a Christian. Paul never called himself one either , but one can argue that case. And no OT writer was a Christian, so most of the biblical writers were not Christian.


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## Mickiel (Mar 21, 2017)

Christians try to claim everything biblical.


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians try to claim everything biblical.


Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 21, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christians try to claim everything biblical.
> ...


...by their priests anally raping children.


----------



## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I don't know about that but there were about 200 pedophiles who were priests.  They are in jail now.  The other 4,500 were just gay men having gay sex.  You should be proud of your fellow gay brothers.


----------



## Mickiel (Mar 21, 2017)

The Christian Tithe ripoff


----------



## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian Tithe ripoff


Karl Marx felt the same way.  He too tried to subordinate Christianity as you do.


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## Mudda (Mar 22, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


You should accept your gay brothers.


----------



## ding (Mar 22, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I do.  I just wanted you to know who you were bashing.


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## Mickiel (Mar 22, 2017)

The Christian tithe ripoff ;  the monetary rape of the bible.


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## Mudda (Mar 22, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


So you're not a Catholic these days?


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## Mickiel (Mar 22, 2017)

Here come the Christians , hide your money. They will curse you if you don't give.


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## kjw47 (Mar 22, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Anyone who follows Jesus( correctly) is a Christian. All writers of the NT followed Jesus-correctly.


----------



## featherlite (Mar 22, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Here come the Christians , hide your money. They will curse you if you don't give.




Once again you're wrong. 

2 Corinthians 9:7   Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or out of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver."

Its an offering, tithing if you choose to. Tithing was required in the old testament. Giving comes in many forms not just money...but you know this already.
Of course there will be sheisters out there, they can be anywhere.


----------



## ding (Mar 22, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


No, I'm still a Catholic.  I even have gay friends.  They just aren't pricks like you.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 22, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Ok, so you're a fake Catholic. Lots of those around.


----------



## ding (Mar 22, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I've been called worse.  It's not so bad.  

We see things as we see ourselves.  We hate in others what we hate most in ourselves.  Your indictment of the world and Christianity is in reality an indictment on your life.


----------



## Marion Morrison (Mar 22, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.





You're a Satanic piece of turd.
You're too much of a coward to tithe.

Life will not go so well for you, heathen 

Mark my words.


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## Marion Morrison (Mar 22, 2017)

I tithe and reap the rewards, if you did, you would too.

I'm like Eric B. I ain't no joke.

It's better off to tithe, believe that.


----------



## Marion Morrison (Mar 22, 2017)

Marion Morrison said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...



Life goes well for people that tithe to the church or correct area.


I can't say much more on this right now, but I know it to be true.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 23, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


You and your religion have no bounds for making shit up.


----------



## ding (Mar 23, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Laughing leads to crying.  Laugh it up.


----------



## ding (Mar 23, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Do you know what the significance of this painting is?


----------



## Mickiel (Mar 23, 2017)

Marion Morrison said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...




Welcome to the thread.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 23, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


No, but I'm sure you'll make up something entertaining.


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I'll think about making a thread to entertain you.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Besides this one?


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Well we do know that's the reason you are here, right?  To amuse yourself.  Please remember me when you discover that laughing leads to crying.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


And your sole purpose here is to amuse us. Carry on.


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## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


If that were the case then you wouldn't be taking your frustrations out on others.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Were you looking in a mirror when you wrote that?


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


No. It is a well known fact that the ego demands payment for defeats.  I'm sure you have learned that the hard way.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


You must owe your ego A TON!!!


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


No.  The ego doesn't work on credit.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


So host how much money do you think you've given to churches over your lifetime? In the tens of dollars?


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


No.  Not that much.  I'm a Jew.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


So you lied when you said you were Catholic?


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


No.  I lied when I said I was a Jew.  Yeesh, you are dumb.  Did you get my coffee yet?


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


So you're a liar as well. Anything else?


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Yes, you are out of milk.  Where's my coffee?


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

The Christian tithe scam is for suckers.


----------



## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mudda said:


> The Christian tithe scam is for suckers.


Then you should probably not put any money in the hat.  There, problem solved.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 25, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian tithe scam is for suckers.
> ...


So you agree that you're a sucker. Good for you.


----------



## ding (Mar 25, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I don't see how you made that leap in logic, but if it assuages your itty bitty ego to see it that way, then you should probably do that because God forbid you engage in same sex domestic violence just because your arguments get spanked by me on a daily basis.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 25, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Man, you're totally deluded, I had to explain to you how to debate. Sheesh.


----------



## ding (Mar 25, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I am not surprised you see it that way.  I'm pretty happy how our conversations have gone.  The proof is always in the pudding.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Mar 25, 2017)

Mudda said:


> The Christian tithe scam is for suckers.



*Sales Pitch of a Je$u$ Salesman
*
Pray
Then pay
That's the way
To make my day


----------



## Mudda (Mar 25, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


The proof pudding is that NOBODY agrees with you.


----------



## ding (Mar 25, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Good thing I don't worry about what you think.


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## Mickiel (Mar 25, 2017)

They want you to think God needs money


----------



## Mudda (Mar 26, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


You don't have to, just knowing that you know that I'm right is enough.


----------



## Mickiel (Mar 26, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> They want you to think God needs money




They mainly want money from God.


----------



## ding (Mar 26, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


With delusions like that it is no wonder your life is in the condition it is.


----------



## ding (Mar 26, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > They want you to think God needs money
> ...


It looks like you are arguing with yourself.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 26, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Then he'd be right twice.


----------



## ding (Mar 26, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I wouldn't expect you to see it any other way.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 26, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Why doesn't god provide for his churches? God needs to beg?


----------



## ding (Mar 26, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Since you are an agnostic, you don't know whether He does or doesn't, lol.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


He doesn't provide for his churches, that's why they pass around the begging plate.


----------



## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Sounds like you do believe in God after all.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


I believe that your god is a broke ass hiding fraidy cat who needs his followers to beg others for money. And I'm only going by the available signs.


----------



## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You are agnostic so I know you don't believe that. Try again.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


The proof pudding is that Catholic churches constantly beg people for money. That's a fact you can go on.


----------



## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


We must have a different definition for beg.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Putting your hand out holding a huge plate wanting money is begging.


----------



## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You need a dictionary.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Holding out a cup, a hat or a plate, it's all begging.


----------



## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


My answer hasn't changed.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Doesn't matter, you're still wrong and it's still begging.


----------



## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Well that would be your opinion but since you are so inconsistent in your beliefs, I won't worry too much about that.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


I've yet to be wrong, unlike you, who has yet to prove anything.


----------



## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


More like you have yet to be right.  In fact the only time you have ever been right was when you admitted that you were wrong.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 28, 2017)

Passing a plate around begging for money is... well... begging.


----------



## Mickiel (Apr 1, 2017)

Using the bible to take money from a people is cold blooded!


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> Passing a plate around begging for money is... well... begging.


But then again you think you are an agnostic.


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Using the bible to take money from a people is cold blooded!


You mean people don't give money?


----------



## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Passing a plate around begging for money is... well... begging.
> ...


At least you didn't disagree with me. Good for you.


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I did disagree with you.  Don't you understand English?


----------



## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Now you're copying me. How cute.


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Yes, it is cute that you did not follow what I wrote.  You are not an agnostic.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Using the bible to take money from a people is cold blooded!
> ...


No one holds a gun to their heads, as far as I know, but you are dishonest if you don't think that people feel peer pressure, and from the pulpit as well.


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I never did.  Maybe you went to the wrong church.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Maybe you really are too stupid to be aware of your surroundings then. But as your past has proven, you are highly dishonest. Ding!


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


Or maybe you went to the wrong church.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


I went to many, retard. Your church isn't doing you any good. You aren't intellectually honest, nor particularly bright. Normal humans will feel compelled to put something in  a plate as they pass it by week to week. You're pathetic.


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


Retard?  Pathetic?  Not particularly bright?  I get paid a lot of money because of my intelligence.  Please don't tell my bosses that I'm not intelligent.

I guess I don't feel peer pressure like you do.  Maybe I am more secure in my beliefs than you are.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Yes, you are a retard. You think you can come here, lie out of your ass and expect to be taken seriously. And that it somehow forwards your cause.


----------



## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


You know you are wrecking your autoimmune system, right?


----------



## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


2 church goers arguing and insulting each other. Figures.


----------



## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


He's an atheist like you.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


Who said I was an atheist, dumbfuck?


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


I've corrected you on that several times before. You really are a retard.


----------



## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Mudda says she's not an atheist either.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


...and? More retard evidence.


----------



## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


Or maybe that's what I believe.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


You believe a lot of shit that isn't true.


----------



## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


And you are entitled to that opinion.


----------



## Mickiel (Apr 4, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Oh yes pulpit pressure is quite real.


----------



## ding (Apr 5, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


It depends upon the religion.


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 5, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


Are you an alter boy?


----------



## ding (Apr 5, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


No.  I'm an engineer.  What are you?


----------



## Iceweasel (Apr 5, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


I'm a guy posting to a dipstick on the internet. You engineer bullshit for your cult.


----------



## ding (Apr 5, 2017)

Iceweasel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


And you are entitled to that opinion.  Is there anything else you'd like to get off your chest?


----------



## Mudda (Apr 5, 2017)

ding said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Someone else beating up my clown?


----------



## ding (Apr 5, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Iceweasel said:
> ...


You seem upset.  Is everything Ok?


----------



## Mudda (Apr 5, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


As long as he doesn't rough you up too much and leaves me a few stomps for later.


----------



## ding (Apr 5, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I think I'll survive.


----------



## Mickiel (Apr 6, 2017)

I think money and the church still have some serious appointments in the future; it seems believers can't get enough of being robbed , as long as a minister holds the gun.


----------



## ding (Apr 6, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I think money and the church still have some serious appointments in the future; it seems believers can't get enough of being robbed , as long as a minister holds the gun.


You and Karl Marx are like twins.  Did MLK rob his church too?  

*...in order to charm the golden birds, out of the pockets of his dearly beloved neighbours in Christ. He puts himself at the service of the other’s most depraved fancies, plays the pimp between him and his need, excites in him morbid appetites, lies in wait for each of his weaknesses – all so that he can then demand the cash for this service of love. *(Every product is a bait with which to seduce away the other’s very being, his money; every real and possible need is a weakness which will lead the fly to the glue-pot. General exploitation of communal human nature, just as every imperfection in man, is a bond with heaven – *an avenue giving the priest access to his heart; every need is an opportunity to approach one’s neighbour under the guise of the utmost amiability and to say to him: Dear friend, I give you what you need, but you know the *_*conditio sine qua non*_*; you know the ink in which you have to sign yourself over to me; in providing for your pleasure, I fleece you.)*

Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844
3rd paragraph

Human Requirements and Division of Labour, Marx, 1844


----------



## Mickiel (Apr 6, 2017)

In Phil. 3:21 one of Jesus powers is the ability to change a human. This is encouraging, because when God created us all, he decided that he wanted us to live in a body of sinful flesh first, so he could teach us lessons and show us how to change our behavior; this is encouraging because we are not " Stuck in sin", he designed our lives to go through definite changes first. This is one of the reasons " Why" we were created in the flesh first ,  " Change!" God wanted us all to experience sin so we could change and learn and grow from it.

So sin is not " Ripping us off" , in the long run we all will benefit from our horrible experience with sin and evil. This is how God wanted this , " In my view and understanding of life!" I harp on Christians and religion a lot, but really God is using all things to bring about the salvation of us all. No humans are condemned.

I believe this incredible Grace is the actual will of God! I really do believe this. You will NEVER read me condemning anyone; ever! God loves us all. And I believe we all make it, even though some of us just can't help but condemn others; its a horrible bad learned habit!

Don't you worry, we'll be fine! Christ and God have made sure of that.


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## OnePercenter (Apr 6, 2017)

the_human_being said:


> Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.



A tithe isn't obligatory?


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## OnePercenter (Apr 7, 2017)

OnePercenter said:


> the_human_being said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.
> ...



Well?


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## Mickiel (Apr 9, 2017)

The tithe has been used and abused by the church.


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## ding (Apr 9, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> The tithe has been used and abused by the church.


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## Mudda (Apr 9, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The tithe has been used and abused by the church.
> ...


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## ding (Apr 9, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


*...in order to charm the golden birds, out of the pockets of his dearly beloved neighbours in Christ. He puts himself at the service of the other’s most depraved fancies, plays the pimp between him and his need, excites in him morbid appetites, lies in wait for each of his weaknesses – all so that he can then demand the cash for this service of love. *(Every product is a bait with which to seduce away the other’s very being, his money; every real and possible need is a weakness which will lead the fly to the glue-pot. General exploitation of communal human nature, just as every imperfection in man, is a bond with heaven – *an avenue giving the priest access to his heart; every need is an opportunity to approach one’s neighbour under the guise of the utmost amiability and to say to him: Dear friend, I give you what you need, but you know the *_*conditio sine qua non*_*; you know the ink in which you have to sign yourself over to me; in providing for your pleasure, I fleece you.)*

Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844
3rd paragraph

Human Requirements and Division of Labour, Marx, 1844


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## Mickiel (Apr 10, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> The tithe has been used and abused by the church.




The church is more guilty of raping the bible of its true meaning of giving than anyone.


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## ding (Apr 10, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The tithe has been used and abused by the church.
> ...


I bet you would rape a Christian if you could, right?


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## Mickiel (Apr 11, 2017)

So many Christian pastors are turning the preaching of the gospel into a prosperity greed message, that its confused whole generations of gullible believers. Its just a shame what they are doing , and the congregations simply refuse to look at the true biblical message ;  the New Testament church did not tithe and did not preach this prosperity message.


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> So many Christian pastors are turning the preaching of the gospel into a prosperity greed message, that its confused whole generations of gullible believers. Its just a shame what they are doing , and the congregations simply refuse to look at the true biblical message ;  the New Testament church did not tithe and did not preach this prosperity message.


Militant atheists agree with you.


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## Mickiel (Apr 13, 2017)

Christianity is the " Great Pied Piper", leading the masses into a limited view of the Atonement. Some believers trust Christianity more than they do God.


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christianity is the " Great Pied Piper", leading the masses into a limited view of the Atonement. Some believers trust Christianity more than they do God.


And some people spread lies like this because they hate Christianity and Christians.


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## Mickiel (Apr 13, 2017)

There is a knife behind the gospel message of Christianity, waiting to stab sinners every chance it gets.


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> There is a knife behind the gospel message of Christianity, waiting to stab sinners every chance it gets.


I think the only one wielding a knife is you.


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## Mickiel (Apr 13, 2017)

Christians have become " gods before the time."

And they act like it!!


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians have become " gods before the time."
> 
> And they act like it!!


I wouldn't expect a socialist to see it any other way.


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## Mickiel (Apr 14, 2017)

I wonder why so many , many readers are so attracted to what a socialist has to say? People are reading my work like their thirsty.

Praise God.


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## ding (Apr 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I wonder why so many , many readers are so attracted to what a socialist has to say? People are reading my work like their thirsty.
> 
> Praise God.


You are a legend in your own mind.


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## Mickiel (Apr 14, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why so many , many readers are so attracted to what a socialist has to say? People are reading my work like their thirsty.
> ...




Well it starts with your belief in yourself ; I trust my mind far greater than I do any other.


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## ding (Apr 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


There is your first mistake.


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## Mickiel (Apr 15, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




I trust my own consciousness far more than I do anyonelse ; that's for sure! I would have it no other way!


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## ding (Apr 15, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


That is your mistake to make.


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## Mickiel (Apr 16, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




I trust the sense that God gave me more than anyone that I know;  , that is where spiritual things are concerned.


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## ding (Apr 16, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You are pretty full of yourself, aren't you?


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## Mickiel (Apr 16, 2017)

I have had my fill of Christians like yourself.


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## ding (Apr 16, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have had my fill of Christians like yourself.


Really?  You don't know me.


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## Mickiel (Apr 17, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have had my fill of Christians like yourself.
> ...




You respond to every thread of mine - everyday; I think I know enough. Self righteousness is easy to spot.


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## Mudda (Apr 17, 2017)

Do black people put different things in a collection plate, like, maybe coupons for Popeye's instead of cash or something like that?


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## ding (Apr 17, 2017)

Mudda said:


> Do black people put different things in a collection plate, like, maybe coupons for Popeye's instead of cash or something like that?


Good thing you are not racist, right?


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## ding (Apr 17, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


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## Mudda (Apr 18, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Do black people put different things in a collection plate, like, maybe coupons for Popeye's instead of cash or something like that?
> ...


It's a question, nothing racist about it.


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## ding (Apr 18, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You and sealybobo are racist POS.  Own it.


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## Mudda (Apr 18, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Look, if you don't know the answer to the question I asked, it's ok, but stop trolling, the grown-ups are trying to have a discussion.


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## ding (Apr 18, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You mean it wasn't a rhetorical question intended to be racist in nature and illicit anger?


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## Mudda (Apr 18, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


It was a q for Mick, actually (he's black).


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## ding (Apr 18, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I know he is black, just as I know you are a racist.


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## Mudda (Apr 19, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


I simply speak the truth. Which you obviously can't handle.


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## Mickiel (Apr 19, 2017)

same people posting everyday;

its just boring!


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## ding (Apr 19, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> same people posting everyday;
> 
> its just boring!


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## ding (Apr 19, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


If you spoke the truth you wouldn't be such a pussy about admitting your racism.


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## Mudda (Apr 19, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


What have I said that wasn't the truth? And why?


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## ding (Apr 19, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?


----------



## Mudda (Apr 20, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Those links don't lead anywhere relevant. And you didn't say why they wouldn't be the truth either. Please try again.


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## ding (Apr 20, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Sure they do.  They lead to your racist comments, dumbass.  Want some more?


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## Mudda (Apr 20, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


It didn't lead to any of my true-ism, you knob.


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## Mickiel (Apr 20, 2017)

Christian pastors are experts at taking money from people who walk through their doors.


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## ding (Apr 20, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christian pastors are experts at taking money from people who walk through their doors.


Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.


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## ding (Apr 20, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


They seemed like pretty racist comments to me, Dude.

What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?

What can whites do to heal race relations?


----------



## Mickiel (Apr 21, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christian pastors are experts at taking money from people who walk through their doors.
> ...




What is false about It?


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## Mudda (Apr 21, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


I click on the links and they don't bring me to my quotes. Please try again.


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## ding (Apr 21, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


They work for me.  Here's the first one.  Now what do you have to say, dumbass?


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## Mickiel (Apr 27, 2017)

Nobody wants to believe that Christianity is stealing money from its own people , because its too hard to accept for them. Because they think God " Wants" them to tithe because they think he commands it, when he does not.

You see, Christianity has thought for so long that they were without great faults , that its hard for them to accept these faults as God is now revealing them. And God often reveals these faults to non Christians, and that they really don't like.

Its stunning what God is systematically doing. Hard to believe it myself ; so I understand the Christians not seeing it.


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## Mickiel (Apr 30, 2017)

Just think about all the money you have given to churches.

All that money.

???


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## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

We are entering the season where Christianity really rips off humanity and its income.


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## Mickiel (Nov 29, 2017)

The Tithe is Abolished!


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## hadit (Nov 29, 2017)

If you're not supporting your local church, why do you care if others do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HaShev (Nov 29, 2017)

hadit said:


> If you're not supporting your local church, why do you care if others do?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh no- you are not one of those are you?
The uninvolved?
Until it's your own grandmom being ripped off, then suddenly it matters?


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## Mickiel (Nov 29, 2017)

hadit said:


> If you're not supporting your local church, why do you care if others do?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I have no church, because too many believers like you run them.


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## hadit (Nov 29, 2017)

HaShev said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > If you're not supporting your local church, why do you care if others do?
> ...



Is your grandma being ripped off?


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## HaShev (Nov 30, 2017)

hadit said:


> HaShev said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


So now you have to be Black and Jewish to speak out against Racism and 
anti-Semitism?
And a woman to speak out against inproper work place behavior, sexual harassment, and rape?


----------



## hadit (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > If you're not supporting your local church, why do you care if others do?
> ...


Then you should have no problem with people other than yourself deciding to support their local church.  It seems that you hold one opinion but don't like other people having a different opinion.  How are you being harmed by Christians deciding on their own to support the good works their church is doing?


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## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




I don't have a problem with others giving, I have a problem with believers being deceived about the whole tithe issue; why you can't understand that??? I don't know. Tithing is obsolete.


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## irosie91 (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Tithing was an issue of the specific economic system of ancient   Judea/Israel.    It was an AGRARIAN society which
was based on  HEREDITARY LAND----fixed and forever.   Every tribe had HEREDITARY LAND-----except the tribe of LEVI.   The tribe of Levi was LANDLESS in an agrarian society------the tithe included---amongst other somewhat socialistic economic issue---the support of the landless Levites.    At that time LAND meant power.


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## hadit (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Churches don't force their congregants to tithe, so if a person decides he wants to do it, why does it bother you so much?

If you are not a Christian and never have been, you really have no horse in this race.  All you're doing is sitting on the outside, carping at those on the inside.


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## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




I was Christian for 20 years; tithing should be public issue discussion, if you think its private, then you leave the thread.


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## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

irosie91 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




Christians use tithing for power, and they are trying to claim its God's will. Giving is God's will, but these churches have made it a mandatory curse.


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## Spare_change (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I would suggest that since you aren't Christian, now, that the Christian practice of tithing is none of your damn business. 

It's called personal freedom ... or, freedom of religion, if you will. Frankly, your opinion is irrelevant.


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## Spare_change (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Having been a practicing Christian for a lot longer than your 20 years, I have NEVER seen tithing to be mandatory. Quit painting false dichotomies.


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## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




I like the way this irrelevant thread is going.


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## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Then don't go to Creflo DoLLARS CHURCH, OR ANY PROSPERITY MINISTRY.


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## hadit (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I don't think it's private.  Christianity is an open book.  The fact, though, that you are no longer a Christian means that, as I said, you have no horse in the race and you're sitting on the outside, complaining about choices that people on the inside make.


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## hadit (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


"These churches"?  Which ones are those?


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

http://www.tithing.com/blog/the-annual-34-billion-church-scandal/


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## hadit (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> http://www.tithing.com/blog/the-annual-34-billion-church-scandal/



So where's the mandatory? Those guys are committing fraud, and will answer to God for it, but where did it say giving was mandatory?


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.tithing.com/blog/the-annual-34-billion-church-scandal/
> ...




Giving is not mandatory, its voluntary. And should be. Why would God require giving?? For what? It defeats the purpose of giving.


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## Mickiel (Dec 8, 2017)

Lets say you now have a chance to actually give God something;  why would you give him money?

What's God going to do with money?


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## Mickiel (Dec 11, 2017)

20 more reasons why the Christian tithe is a rip off;

20 Reasons You Should Stop Tithing


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## hadit (Dec 11, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Lets say you now have a chance to actually give God something;  why would you give him money?
> 
> What's God going to do with money?



You claim you were a Christian, yet you display no understanding of what giving is or its purpose.


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## Spare_change (Dec 11, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> 20 more reasons why the Christian tithe is a rip off;
> 
> 20 Reasons You Should Stop Tithing


Interesting.

I note two things .....

1) You have no practical understanding of tithing. The very idea that the money goes to God is beyond laughable, and clearly demonstrates a level of ignorance beyond normal human conception. Further, I wonder why you think it is within your purview to judge the actions of others. Maybe you should look a little closer to home.

2) I am continually amazed about how atheists feel the visceral need to prove their position. I wonder who they are trying to convince - Christians or themselves. It appears atheists don't exactly really believe the nonsense they spout - and are looking for validation. Christian, on the other hand, seem very content with who they are and what they believe. It's almost as if we recognize the more atheists there are, the more backyard space we'll have in Heaven.


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## Mickiel (Dec 12, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > 20 more reasons why the Christian tithe is a rip off;
> ...



The Christian tithe is a fraud. Some even believe they will be cursed if they do not give. Its fearful nonsense.


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## Spare_change (Dec 12, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



None of which changes the original position - it's none of your damn business what people choose to do.


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## hadit (Dec 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



You're obsessed with something you don't understand. Let it go.


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## Bonzi (Dec 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian tithe is a fraud. Some even believe they will be cursed if they do not give. Its fearful nonsense



Many believe they will be blessed and provided economic safety by tithing.  When I went to church, I tithed 10% plus faithfully, did not make a ton of money and never had money problems.  I'm not even saying that it's because of God (or not), only that, if nothing else, it makes you budget conscious - the folks in church that DID NOT tithe always had excuses, but, they could always afford to take big vacations, go out to eat 4 times a week with their kids, etc etc.  If you DO believe in God, find a good church, make sure you can see their budget, and give so that good can be done for others and in the community. 

Giving to a televangilst - no.  Just don't.


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## Penelope (Dec 13, 2017)

The people need to be made aware of the TV scam artists of this world, like Mike Murdocks 
Does Mike Murdock's 58 days seed covenant really work?

most on TV are nothing but scam artists. Give to your local church and mission, if you feel the need to give, not to these scam artists who prey on the gullible.

They need to make these faux churches pay taxes.


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## Mickiel (Dec 13, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...




Your suggesting that I remain silent;

no, I will not.


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## Mickiel (Dec 13, 2017)

Bonzi said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian tithe is a fraud. Some even believe they will be cursed if they do not give. Its fearful nonsense
> ...




Find a good church;  what's a good church?


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## Bonzi (Dec 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


 You find a church that blends with you beliefs. If none, then, no church


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## Mickiel (Dec 13, 2017)

Bonzi said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Bonzi said:
> ...




There are none good, no not one.


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## Spare_change (Dec 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I suggest nothing ..... 

1) I maintain that my relationship with the church is none of your damn business, and I would appreciate you remembering that.

2) Feel free to spout all the nonsense you wish - you shall be judged by the level of intelligence you fail to display.


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## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

Spare_change said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



I started this thread and I am discussing the deception of the Christian tithe. I did not force you to come to the thread, but you are welcome. I will continue to discuss it. I could careless about your relationship with the church.

And I will be judged, and one thing I am absolutely sure of, is that you will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Peace on your journey.


----------



## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

Penelope said:


> The people need to be made aware of the TV scam artists of this world, like Mike Murdocks
> Does Mike Murdock's 58 days seed covenant really work?
> 
> most on TV are nothing but scam artists. Give to your local church and mission, if you feel the need to give, not to these scam artists who prey on the gullible.
> ...




What if I decide not to give to any church; what will God do to me then?


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## Penelope (Dec 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > The people need to be made aware of the TV scam artists of this world, like Mike Murdocks
> ...



Nothing , God is not in need of money.  Now greed is different, its one of the seven deadly sins.  If you do not belong to a church don't tithe, but it should not keep you from charitable causes, such as your local food bank.

I give to the regular food bank, because at the mission they have to listen to hell and brimstone preachers before they are fed.


----------



## hadit (Dec 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



You had a bad experience, I get that. Maybe that explains your crusade and obsession, but let it go. Others do not share your experience and will not, no matter how hard you try to make them.


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## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

Penelope said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...




Well thank you, I agree. I agree totally with giving; to family first, and then charities of your choice. Even a church, if they are not wrapped up in greed and this hell doctrine.


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## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Bonzi said:
> ...



I disagree, this thread has enough interest to suit me. I will not give up this truth.


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## hadit (Dec 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Then you should make sure you're telling the truth.


----------



## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




Hadit, and this is truth as well, what I am about to say. The truth you are conscious of, others have different truths they are conscious of. We just see things far differently, but I am sure there are a few things we can agree with; some things in Christianity I agree with. If one gets with a group of people that they totally agree with, that would be a wonderful thing. I have never met a group of believers that I totally agree with, so for the most part, I must walk alone. When I meet believers in God, I respect that at least . But I am a believer, I just read the bible and understand it as I see it. Can I be wrong about things, of course I can. In fact, I have looked back and seen things I have been wrong about biblically, for over 30 years. But at least I have seen the wrong and was led to correction.

So hey, we see what we see. Paul saw things differently than Peter did. Every Apostle in the bible had followers in their group who saw things differently. As did the disciples , that is not un normal or something; its just how it is.


----------



## hadit (Dec 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Fair enough on its face, but when you say things like there are no good churches, you have moved out of the arena of simple disagreement and are simply and completely wrong.  Peter and Paul disagreed on whether to put observance of the Law on Gentile Christians, but they both agreed Yeshua is Lord.


----------



## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
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The bible does suggest that none are good or righteous; but fair enough, I should not group them all together, some are better than others. But I can say that I have never seen a " Good Church." Maybe some I have been exposed to in the 60's or 70's, but not recently. Its mostly the leaders fault In Jeremiah God himself said MANY Pastors have destroyed my vineyard, ( or his church). I could listen to the words of people, or believe what God has said. If you read the OT, some of the things God says about this whole world and HIS church, it will astonish you. Notice then Isaiah 40:17, " All nations before him are as nothing; and they are " Counted to him as Less than nothing and meaningless." Less than nothing, my goodness.


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## hadit (Dec 14, 2017)

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Actually, I grieve over the fraud that many pastors are committing, precisely because of what you are going through. I have seen good pastors, and some not so good, but the best are the ones that acknowledge they are human, fallible and flawed. The church I'm in now doesn't make a big deal about money.  The leadership trusts God for the funds to operate and support our outreach and various ministries and He always provides.


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## Spare_change (Dec 14, 2017)

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Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.


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## Mickiel (Dec 15, 2017)

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Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another?  I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?


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## Spare_change (Dec 15, 2017)

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I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.


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## Mickiel (Dec 15, 2017)

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Well I understand that churches need money to pay their bills , but I also understand that the New Testament church did not Tithe or give clergy salaries. They gave money to members who needed it , and to Apostolic workers who were establishing other churches. The tithe was abolished by Christ. Not giving , but he abolished giving under an obligation to give. He wanted freedom in giving , not giving because of a law or a threat to be cursed if you did not give.


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## Mickiel (Dec 15, 2017)

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I will not back off, your request is denied!


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## hadit (Dec 15, 2017)

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Yes, Yeshua raised the bar.  He moved from the realm of the Law, where actions were paramount, to relationship and the heart, where the mind and attitudes are paramount.  It's a lot harder standard.  There are many, however, who trust God with a tithe, and do it, not because they feel they have to, but because they really want to.  In fact, they don't stop at a tithe, but give freely.


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## hadit (Dec 15, 2017)

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See, that is the problem.  You will convince no one as long as you are attacking them for their beliefs.  All you're doing is spitting into the wind.  You get wet and the wind doesn't stop.


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## Mickiel (Dec 15, 2017)

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Well yes, I understand that, but I hold no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I speak only as a witness to what I understand; holding the right to express my beliefs as you have the right. Tithing has been abolished; period! And there exist no more bondage to it ; no one can be pressured to tithe any more. Now if THEY still want to, I don't see any problem with that, as long as they understand that they are not biblically obligated to it, or doing God some king of favor that they get blessed or rewarded for. And that they hold no right to mislead others about the true nature of tithing in the Old covenant verse the New Covenant. I am free of tithing or any other Old Testament law; ALL those laws were hanged on a tree with Christ.


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## Mickiel (Dec 15, 2017)

And that is the problem with this obsession to tithe, people still think its a system God set up to entice others to give , but when he set it up, he was " Forcing them to give", because he new how greedy and stubborn Israel truly was. He used a curse to threaten them to give, and blessings to entice them to give. You know, if you give then I will give things to you. Well that was changed, along with so very much other changes in the New Covenant; that is WHY its called a NEW Covenant, things were done in a new way, a way designed to give true freedom in all things, especially giving. Tithing becomes a problem when its represented as God's command, binding upon every believer!

God does not want believers thrown into poverty or burdened with bills that tithing makes it hard for them to pay. NO! Pay your bills first! You are NOT obligated to give beyond your means. Don't let it impact your needs. God is not stupid, he does not want you neglecting things just to tithe. Its no longer a way he uses to bless you, God does not need money given to a church as a way to bless you and support you. That is nonsense; its old covenant. Its a type of bondage that Jesus death freed us from.

Tithing is not a litmus test for discipleship. Tithing is not a sign of devotion to God. Tithing is not some kind of stock investment in God. You know, the thinking is " Pay the Tithe, and God will give you more money in return,  Refuse to tithe and he will punish you. Such a system really rips at the heart of true giving. And it is sad that so many believers are addicted to it. They are missing the true freedom in Christ and the true nature of giving. Notice then 2Corinth. 9:7, " Every man according to how he has purpose in his heart , so let him give , NOT grudgingly, or out of " Necessity, ( or obligation), " For God loves a Cheerful giver." Necessity here means obligation, like obeying a command. This is the true Godly pathology in Giving.


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## hadit (Dec 16, 2017)

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Don't forget, however, the Biblical injunction against doing something your conscience tells you is sin. Even if you are free from bondage, others may not be, and as Paul admonishes, we should not cause others to stumble through our freedom.


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## Mickiel (Dec 16, 2017)

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I am not causing anyone to stumble, I don't chase people and go on other threads, I stay to myself. Why the threads sometimes attract a lot of people, I just don't know, but I never force my views on anyone, not you either. Show me anywhere in these archives that I have forced anything on anyone? Show me.

I would like to see what you accuse me of.


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## hadit (Dec 16, 2017)

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Where did I say force? I didn't, and you don't have to force to entice another to stumble. You may not even intend to do so.


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## Mickiel (Dec 16, 2017)

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I am using the scriptures as my evidence , not lame words to entice, and I have offered articles and essays for people to study for themselves.

Here's another one;

The Tithe is Illegal

I admit few believers are realizing this truth, and its a hard truth to follow, because one usually has addictions to old information that is in error, that type of learning is hard to overcome. Because we learned it from churches and pastors who were in error, people and churches that some think its impossible for a pastor or a church to be in error; A grave mistake in judgment. Who would think that the tithe learning is tainted? Well not only does this topic show error in Christian learning, there is a whole long list of error in the Christian church. Which is why I left it years ago; I could no longer pacify walking in error that members seemed totally blind to. From the Trinity doctrine, to keeping these pagan originated holidays, to false teachings about the so called " Fall of man", satan being this fictional person called " Lucifer", the horrible doctrine of eternal hell punishing- a rape of the truth, and many , many others.

It was VERY hard for me to discover these things, but the bible helped me see them. One of the hardest things to do is to unlearn deceptive church education which you were taught for years.

So I understand why you struggle with my views; I do understand.

Peace.


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## Mickiel (Dec 18, 2017)

The Tithe is a rip off, it was never sanctioned by God to be a permanent fixture.


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## Mickiel (Dec 19, 2017)

Give as is in your heart, no Christian doctrine can force you to give a percentage and God has not obligated you to give a dime if you don't want to.


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## mona2017 (Dec 22, 2017)

Love this thread. Here is my 2 cents!  My step dad and mother are rolling in money.  I am struggling financially terribly!  He gives the church $700 a month and me nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does this dude honestly think he is buying his way into heaven?!  Makes me want to vomit. He is such a hypocrite.....not a very nice man either.  Sickening.


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## Mickiel (Dec 22, 2017)

mona2017 said:


> Love this thread. Here is my 2 cents!  My step dad and mother are rolling in money.  I am struggling financially terribly!  He gives the church $700 a month and me nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does this dude honestly think he is buying his way into heaven?!  Makes me want to vomit. He is such a hypocrite.....not a very nice man either.  Sickening.




This is the kind of thing I am talking about, he gives the church 700.00 a month and you nothing. That's just wrong, but in his eyes its the " Godly thing to do." He can find all kinds of reasons not to help you, and the church gives him all kinds of reasons to give his money. You have the tithe, usually ten percent of their income. Then you have all kinds of " Love offerings:" Then offerings to help others, and most of their member neglect helping their own. Then the church " Building fund", then " Gifts to the ministry." The list goes on and on, its a professional money machine.  And they use God as the drawing tool.


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## Mickiel (Dec 23, 2017)

Its as if Christianity does not want to know the truth about the tithe; they are afraid of change. They have far too much pride, thinking they cannot be wrong about things. Pride comes before a fall. Their young people are being misled, whole families are being taught this horrible wrong. Some of their pastors even know this truth, but would rather have the money than to teach the truth.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Its as if Christianity does not want to know the truth about the tithe; they are afraid of change. They have far too much pride, thinking they cannot be wrong about things. Pride comes before a fall. Their young people are being misled, whole families are being taught this horrible wrong. Some of their pastors even know this truth, but would rather have the money than to teach the truth.



Most churches receive far less than 10% of the congregants income. You're still complaining about people making voluntary choices with their own resources.  IOW, it's their business, not yours.


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## Mickiel (Dec 23, 2017)

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> ...



Tithing is biblical, that makes it all of our business. But Tithing is not " Spiritual". The Tithe belonged to ancient Israel , essentially it was their income tax. The real biblical Tithe was three parts;  a tithe of the produce of land to support the Levites , a tithe to support the festivals taken again from the produce of land,  and a tithe taken from the produce of land collected every third year for the local levites , orphans, strangers and widows.

That is the biblical tithe. It was the product of the produce of land, NOT money.


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## hadit (Dec 23, 2017)

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Still their business if they decide to give because they love God. It's up to Him to decide if their gift is wrong, not us.


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## Mickiel (Dec 24, 2017)

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Why do you think money is a gift to God? Why do you think a love offering to God has to be money? If a human decides that they love God, what do you think God would want them to give? Can you think of all the things God would want from them, and I don't even think money would be on the list.

You can keep your money, give him your life.


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 24, 2017)

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You keep being rebellious, and not tithing, and I'll keep tithing and reaping the numerous rewards, k?

You're only losing out for yourself, just so you know. I haven't been without work in 15 years or more, have everything I need, you?


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 24, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> The Tithe is a rip off, it was never sanctioned by God to be a permanent fixture.



Proof?


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## Mickiel (Dec 24, 2017)

Marion Morrison said:


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http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheisIllegal.html


https://thetithinghoax.wordpress.com/


http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheIsAbolished.html


http://www.letusreason.org/doct54.htm

If you need more, let me know.


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 24, 2017)

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You keep being rebellious, and not tithing, and I'll keep tithing and reaping the numerous rewards, k?

You're only losing out for yourself, just so you know. I haven't been without work in 15 years or more, have everything I need, you?


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## Mickiel (Dec 24, 2017)

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I am doing good. I'm 62 years old and disabled. But I am able to help my people, both my son and his cousins. And I have all my needs and extra, and I do not tithe.


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 24, 2017)

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You'd probably have more if you did.


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## Mickiel (Dec 24, 2017)

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I have more than I ever had in my life, and  it has absolutely nothing to do with tithing.


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 24, 2017)

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You sure do come across as a miserable cuss. I don't have all the answers and I've said my piece. Merry Christmas.


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## Mickiel (Dec 25, 2017)

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Peace to you.


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 25, 2017)

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He already said, derp! 10 percent. That is all.


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## Mickiel (Dec 25, 2017)

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Show me anywhere in the bible that God ask for 10 percent of anyone's money.


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 25, 2017)

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Well, that sure was a disingenuous challenge on your part. Merry Christmas!

All 17 Bible Verses About Tithing | Tithing Scriptures


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## hadit (Dec 25, 2017)

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Money is what we value. By giving it, we express faith that God will continue to provide. Do you think He needed the sheep, goats and grain offerings set forth in the Law? Of course not. The sacrifice is on our side and He gains nothing material from them. It is the act of the consecrated and thankful heart that He treasures. 

You really need to stop obsessing over this and be free. You're giving it tremendous power over you.


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## Mickiel (Dec 25, 2017)

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Maybe you misunderstood the challenge , I asked for a scripture showing God asking for money. Or any scripture that shows God revealing the tithe to be money.

This I can't wait to see.


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## Mickiel (Dec 25, 2017)

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I agree that the real tithe was sheep, goats , grain, fruit, corn, land, but never money. The only time the tithe was money, is when the giver was traveling and had no room for all his produce, so they sold their produce because money was easy to carry. And I am not obsessing, this is only one thread, and I only continue on a thread if there is interest. I have been doing this for 25 years; I know when a thread is dead or finished.

Some threads are different, where in they seem to have a life of their own, they take dramatic turns and burst off into a longevity that is impressive. And you just ride it like a wave until it dies.

I know what gives it power, but I won't get into that.


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## Marion Morrison (Dec 25, 2017)

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3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3 - King James Version

You won't understand because you don't want to understand. The tithe is 10% of what you bring in, be it harvest, or money.


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## Gagafritz (Dec 25, 2017)

OK so you don't like tithing then don't.  However, the work of the Church has to be funded by the members in some way.  There are expenses that need to paid, overhead, the cost to heat a building, supplies, etc.   So, church members  need to contribute regularly if they want a thriving church.
  However, the govt steals a crap ton of money which supposedly is redistributed to the poor so just by paying taxes, you are paying for that as well.  So, we can argue the 10% or not.


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## Mickiel (Dec 27, 2017)

Gagafritz said:


> OK so you don't like tithing then don't.  However, the work of the Church has to be funded by the members in some way.  There are expenses that need to paid, overhead, the cost to heat a building, supplies, etc.   So, church members  need to contribute regularly if they want a thriving church.
> However, the govt steals a crap ton of money which supposedly is redistributed to the poor so just by paying taxes, you are paying for that as well.  So, we can argue the 10% or not.




If you and I were allowed to look at the books of, lets say 20 churches in your area, and we could compare their accounts on their bills verses the Pastors salary and spending; would he receive more than the combined expenses of the churches needs? How much money gets spent on the needs of the members and the people living in the surrounding areas?

You claim " The work of the church has to be funded." What is the work of the church?


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## Mickiel (Dec 27, 2017)

[QUOTE="Marion Morrison, post:


You won't understand because you don't want to understand. The tithe is 10% of what you bring in, be it harvest, or money.[/QUOTE]


The Tithe is an old testament outlawed law that was used to intimidate  Israel into giving, because they did not like to give. Jesus ended it and issued a new way of giving, that was free from any law or percentages.


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## Mickiel (Dec 29, 2017)

Hey how big are your church offering plates? I have seen some churches use popcorn buckets.


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## hadit (Dec 29, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Hey how big are your church offering plates? I have seen some churches use popcorn buckets.



This is the 21st century.  A lot of giving is done online.


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## Mickiel (Dec 31, 2017)

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A lot of lying and manipulation is done online. When churches use God to get money, its a sin; when they get money to help the people and to teach God, it is not a sin. Prosperity ministries are an example of believers using God to enrich themselves. Its called greed and coveting.


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## hadit (Dec 31, 2017)

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That has nothing to do with the size of the offering plates.


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## Mickiel (Dec 31, 2017)

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Its a physical manipulation placed on the people. The size of the bucket is a manipulation to give more in order to fill it up.


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## hadit (Dec 31, 2017)

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And like I said, a lot of churches are doing online giving.


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## Mickiel (Jan 4, 2018)

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Giving is not wrong, its just not a command; its carries no penalty if one chooses not to; it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation; it is not a test of faith; its not a spiritual measuring tape; its just a desire of the heart. And I think a good desire.


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## hadit (Jan 4, 2018)

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It does test your faith, however, and you should allow people to give whether they consider it a command or not.  They do not need you hectoring them about it.


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## Mickiel (Jan 4, 2018)

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It requires no faith to give money to anything.


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## hadit (Jan 4, 2018)

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Actually, it does, unless you give so little it doesn't matter.


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## Mickiel (Jan 4, 2018)

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Explain to me how it requires faith to give money. Faith in who? If you are suggesting God, show me three scriptures that state it requires faith in God to give money.


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## hadit (Jan 5, 2018)

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It requires faith when you are prompted to give more than you can afford.  IOW, sacrificially.


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## Mickiel (Jan 5, 2018)

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I asked for three scriptures that claim it requires faith to give money, I guess you cannot give them. What has faith to do with giving when you make bad decisions with your money. Who taught you to do that and involve God or any other spiritual reasons to hurt your bank account like that? God is not stupid or demanding of any money from believers.


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## hadit (Jan 5, 2018)

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What do you know of what God asks of others? Sacrificial giving teaches generosity, not selfishness.


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## Mickiel (Jan 5, 2018)

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Why would God ask you for money that you don't have? I would not even do that to people. You can't even give me scriptures that support your claims. How can you believe things and not show us why in scripture?


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## hadit (Jan 5, 2018)

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Good will sometimes ask for you to give what you don't think you have or can afford to demonstrate His ability to provide. You're thinking solely in your human mind.

Remember, you have been saying this whole time that giving is to be done voluntarily, not according to formula.  Now, you do also remember how Jesus praised the widow who gave all she had left in the world, right? And you remember the rich man that Jesus told to sell everything he had and give it all to the poor?  

So we know what Jesus thought about giving. It takes faith to give sacrificially.

Note that I'm not saying that all Christians are commanded to give all they have. They're not, but they are commanded to be generous.


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## Mickiel (Jan 23, 2018)

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If you will this time, can you give us the scriptures where God commands anyone to be generous? I would like to see that.


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## hadit (Jan 23, 2018)

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Deuteronomy 15:10
Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.

Psalm 37:21
The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously;

Psalm 112:5
Good will come to those who are generous and lend freely, who conduct their affairs with justice;

Proverbs 11:25
A generous person will prosper; whoever refreshes others will be refreshed.

Proverbs 22:9
The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor.

Luke 11:41
But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.

Romans 12:8
if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

2 Corinthians 9:6
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

1 Timothy 6:18
Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

I'm sure you can quibble and say they're not absolute commandments, but the idea is clear.  God loves generosity, and the fact that you claimed ignorance about what the Bible has to say on the subject tells me that you really don't know that much about it at all.


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## Mickiel (Jan 23, 2018)

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I know that God does not command anyone to be generous, but you claimed he does. To tell others that God HAS STATED SOMETHING, WHICH HE HAS NOT, is within itself blasphemy; and I realize that you cannot see this, and you cannot admit your wrong because there is something in your mind other than the truth.


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## hadit (Jan 23, 2018)

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You are looking for absolute commands, but God is looking for a heart to heart relationship wherein He doesn't have to command because we seek after Him.  Why do you think Jesus gave the greatest commandments as to love God with all you have and to love your neighbor as yourself? All the commandments are wrapped up in those. As far as I'm concerned, God most certainly values generosity, and that's good enough for me.


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## Mickiel (Feb 3, 2018)

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I agree.  But see, the tithe is an old command, but because of the pure Love and Joy of Christ Cross and God the Father's true heart,  the force of command is no longer needed; its just that too many believers and givers NEED to be told to give, or their motivation is gone! Their used to being told what to do ;they have slave mentality that inhibits freedom in Christ! They have to pushed.


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## vasuderatorrent (Dec 9, 2018)

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I, Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Dec 9, 2018)

the_human_being said:


> Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.


It's also great that we live in a society where the lying church conmen can be openly criticized, and their nasty little scams openly exposed.


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## koshergrl (Dec 9, 2018)

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> 
> 
> > Isn't it absolutely fantastic that we live in a nation where no one can be forced to give anything at all to any church at all therefore this OP is totally without any merit whatsoever.
> ...


Meh they exist but for the most part, the church of the US and worldwide does more to help mankind than every government official and every government program combined.

Marxists naturally despise any organization that help the starving,  diseased, and injured victims of marxism.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Dec 9, 2018)

koshergrl said:


> the church of the US and worldwide does more to help mankind than every government official and every government program combined.


Nah, that's false. Literally just pulled that out of your ass.


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## dblack (Dec 9, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> 
> So two rip offs right off,  is the tithe was continued on into this age by church leaders , not by the New Testament church, but new church leaders greed. And it was completely changed from land to money. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the New Testament church ever tithed , or that it was ever money. In fact  the tithe did not become widespread in Christianity until the eight century. For 700 years after Christ , it was rarely even mentioned. Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating story of incredible bible twisting and ripping off people.  And I want to go into the burden it has put on the poor.


Whatever. Church people have to make a living.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Dec 9, 2018)

dblack said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is a money making machine , milking its members like cows. Using its sentimental powers to empty the wallets and purses of its people. The Christian tithe is of interest , because although tithing is biblical , its biblical meaning and history is being hid by Christian ministers. Because they want that money.  The tithe belonged to ancient Israel ,it was essentially their income tax.  But the real biblical tithe was the product of land NOT money! The tithe in Malachi 3 is soley about land , never money! In fact ,  the New Testament church never tithed.  Tithing , in the real bible, was an old covenant thing.
> ...


So do fortune tellers and spoonbenders.


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## dblack (Dec 9, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Yep. As long as it's voluntary.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Dec 9, 2018)

dblack said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


And as long as the taxes are paid.  hey, wait a minute...


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## koshergrl (Dec 9, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > the church of the US and worldwide does more to help mankind than every government official and every government program combined.
> ...


No, it's true. If I were to pull something out of an ass, I would shove my arm up your ass and pull.
But I'm not. 

meanwhile..yes. The church has done more for humanity than all the governments combined. 
True story.


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## dblack (Dec 9, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...


Well yeah, the tax exemption thing is bullshit.


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## koshergrl (Dec 9, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...


Who is supposed to pay the taxes? 
The people who benefit from charities that pay the medical bills of those who can't?
Lepers? Refugees? Single mothers? Pregnant women? The alcholics and drug addicts that are provided with housing and jobs by various religious orgnizations?

Marxists are just vile. I have to battle every day with my desire to see them dead.


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