# Should Ichiro make the baseball HOF?



## ShootSpeeders (Dec 26, 2017)

He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.

He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.


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## TheOldSchool (Dec 26, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.


500+ stolen bases, 10 years of .300+ average, 10x All-Star, 10x Golden Glove, 1 MVP, most hits in a single season, 10 years of 200+ hits.....

I know you hate him because he's not white, but I'd say he deserves some recognition.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 26, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> 500+ stolen bases, 10 years of .300+ average, 10x All-Star, 10x Golden Glove, 1 MVP, most hits in a single season, 10 years of 200+ hits.....
> 
> I know you hate him because he's not white, but I'd say he deserves some recognition.



Well of course he deserves some recognition and i admit he was a very good player.  So was vada pinson.

I know you love him because he's non-white but i say look at the numbers.


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## MarathonMike (Dec 26, 2017)

I tried to think of a HOF player who is similar to Ichiro in terms of stats. I came up with Lou Brock the base stealing wizard of the Cardinals back in the day. Ichiros stats overall are better in many categories than Brock's so I would say yes he belongs in the Hall.


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## shockedcanadian (Dec 26, 2017)

He has 3000 hits as a Major Leaguer and he entered the league late, having massive years in Japan.  It's safe to say if he had spent his younger years in the MLB, he would be a first ballot.

I imagine he will get in.


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## Pogo (Dec 26, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.



Of course he should.  Who do you know that has 3K hits --- even playing an entire career here -- and is not in the HOF?

HR numbers are way overrated.  HRs ain't all there is.  And you left out his throwing ability.  

In short, fuck you.


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## TheOldSchool (Dec 26, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> TheOldSchool said:
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> > 500+ stolen bases, 10 years of .300+ average, 10x All-Star, 10x Golden Glove, 1 MVP, most hits in a single season, 10 years of 200+ hits.....
> ...


Pinson was good, but not comparable to Ichiro.


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## Pogo (Dec 26, 2017)

The fact that the OP doesn't even have to post the player's last name undermines his own racism.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> Pinson was good, but not comparable to Ichiro.



I think the comparison is very good.  Both got a lot of hits and few walks. Pinson had ok power but ichy has weak power.  Both were good outfielders and base runners.


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## Votto (Dec 27, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.



Listen, Liberals have targeted Asians for years.

Do you know any stars on Hollywood who are Asian?  Not unless they are martial arts actors.

Do we really want to continue to allow Universities to not let Asians into college who far out perform both black and whites just because of their race?

Ichiro has more hits than Pete Rose, if you count his time in Japan, and I bet he did not prey on young teenage girls while doing it at the age of 40.

And as was said, he started in the US late.  He is no doubt a Hall of Famer.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

shockedcanadian said:


> He has 3000 hits as a Major Leaguer and he entered the league late, having massive years in Japan.  It's safe to say if he had spent his younger years in the MLB, he would be a first ballot.
> .



Since when do minor league stats count? Hell one year ichy had 25 HRs ( in just 130 games) in the jap league.!!!  It's double A ball.


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## martybegan (Dec 27, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> ...



The only argument against is the old "compiler" argument, and I have never been a fan of it. 

One also has to remember that he was one of the best fielders as well in his prime. 

3000 hits seals the deal for me.


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## Pogo (Dec 27, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> TheOldSchool said:
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> > Pinson was good, but not comparable to Ichiro.
> ...



Again to reiterate the last point --- you gave your subject's name as "Ichiro" -- no last name -- and everybody knows who you mean.  Try that with "Vada".


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## martybegan (Dec 27, 2017)

Pogo said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> ...



For the number crunchers out there.

Ichiro Suzuki Stats  | Baseball-Reference.com


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

MarathonMike said:


> I tried to think of a HOF player who is similar to Ichiro in terms of stats. I came up with Lou Brock the base stealing wizard of the Cardinals back in the day. Ichiros stats overall are better in many categories than Brock's so I would say yes he belongs in the Hall.



Many people think lou brock does NOT belong in the HOF.  Similar to ichy as a hitter but lou was a terrible outfielder.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

Pogo said:


> Again to reiterate the last point --- you gave your subject's name as "Ichiro" -- no last name -- and everybody knows who you mean.  Try that with "Vada".



Everybody knows ichy was famous and it is the Hall of FAME,  but the voting is done on ability not fame.

For whatever reason, vada was never famous but he was very good.


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## DGS49 (Dec 27, 2017)

First ballot.  No question.

The numbers, while excellent, don't do justice to his impact in every game he played.  Great head, great bat, good legs, good glove, and his power was just icing on the cake.

One of the most exciting players for most of his career.

First ballot.


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## MarathonMike (Dec 27, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> MarathonMike said:
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> > I tried to think of a HOF player who is similar to Ichiro in terms of stats. I came up with Lou Brock the base stealing wizard of the Cardinals back in the day. Ichiros stats overall are better in many categories than Brock's so I would say yes he belongs in the Hall.
> ...





ShootSpeeders said:


> MarathonMike said:
> 
> 
> > I tried to think of a HOF player who is similar to Ichiro in terms of stats. I came up with Lou Brock the base stealing wizard of the Cardinals back in the day. Ichiros stats overall are better in many categories than Brock's so I would say yes he belongs in the Hall.
> ...


Brock was inducted in his first year of eligibility and was a finalist for the "All Century Team". He most certainly belongs there, as does Ichiro who had a better lifetime batting average and was a 10 time gold glover and 10 time all-star.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> First ballot.  No question.
> 
> The numbers, while excellent, don't do justice to his impact in every game he played.  Great head, great bat, good legs, good glove, and his power was just icing on the cake..



Power??? He averaged  7 HRs per 162 games and had a career SA of 403  He was a punch and judy hitter.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 27, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.


Obviously, when it comes to baseball you're just a poser.

Ichiro definitely deserves to be in the HoF.  Any player with 3,000 hits is a lock.

Plus, he had a whole other career in Japan before coming to MLB.  One of the all-time hitting purists, like Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, Pete Rose, Rogers Hornsby.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 27, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> TheOldSchool said:
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> 
> > 500+ stolen bases, 10 years of .300+ average, 10x All-Star, 10x Golden Glove, 1 MVP, most hits in a single season, 10 years of 200+ hits.....
> ...


He just posted the numbers, nimrod.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> Obviously, when it comes to baseball you're just a poser.
> Ichiro definitely deserves to be in the HoF.  Any player with 3,000 hits is a lock.
> Plus, he had a whole other career in Japan before coming to MLB.



You're making a fool of yourself. Minor league stats don't count.  The jap league is just double A.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 27, 2017)

MarathonMike said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
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Sabermetrics has not been kind to the Redbird left fielder. Playing at the low end of the defensive spectrum, Brock is deemed to have cost his team 171 runs over the course of his career with an arm that was neither strong nor accurate. Bill James has been dismissive of the value of stolen bases since OBP was considered an advanced statistic. With a career bWAR of 45.2, Brock ranks dead last among the 47 first ballot Hall of Famers by a significant margin and well below the output achieved by many who have been denied admission to the Hall.​


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## Synthaholic (Dec 27, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Synthaholic said:
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> > Obviously, when it comes to baseball you're just a poser.
> ...


He's not being judged for the HoF based on his Japan League numbers, dumbass.

He got 3,000 hits American.


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## rightwinger (Dec 27, 2017)

First ballot HOF

The man could flat out hit


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## MarathonMike (Dec 27, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> MarathonMike said:
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> > ShootSpeeders said:
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Lou Brock was a game changer, and a multi year all-star just like Ichiro. Arm chair sabremetrics experts can analyze data all they want. Lou Brock was a first ballot inductee and deserved to be. And so should Ichiro.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 27, 2017)

I'm lukewarm on Brock.  Although, he's more deserving than Jack Morris.  What a fuckup that selection is!


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## Old Yeller (Dec 27, 2017)

MarathonMike said:


> I tried to think of a HOF player who is similar to Ichiro in terms of stats. I came up with Lou Brock the base stealing wizard of the Cardinals back in the day. Ichiros stats overall are better in many categories than Brock's so I would say yes he belongs in the Hall.




Brock helped lead STL to three good 7-game WS in the 60s' with 2 titles.  Ichiro was isolated up in SEA.  No big game events to get recognition nationally.  Hmmmm...dare I add, not "tested"?

Lou had 9,12, 14 hits.....during those WS.  Tested. Yes.

Any OF with speed is at least AVG by default.....I would think.  Who do you want out there? Jose Canseco?  Mo Vaughn? Nelson Cruz?


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> Sabermetrics has not been kind to the Redbird left fielder. Playing at the low end of the defensive spectrum, Brock is deemed to have cost his team 171 runs over the course of his career with an arm that was neither strong nor accurate. Bill James has been dismissive of the value of stolen bases since OBP was considered an advanced statistic. With a career bWAR of 45.2, Brock ranks dead last among the 47 first ballot Hall of Famers by a significant margin and well below the output achieved by many who have been denied admission to the Hall.​



Years ago James wrote an article about Brock and his terrible fielding.

"Historical revisionists of today, not satisfied  with trying to turn thomas jefferson into a tyrant, convert dwight eisenhower into an intellectual, and wash the blood from the hands of robespierre, have begun arguing that lou brock was a good outfielder. This, gentlemen, is going too far. Lou had no arm and a tendency to freeze up on balls hit right at him."

Brock does not belong in the HOF and people who compare him to ichiro are libeling ichiro.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> Brock helped lead STL to three good 7-game WS in the 60s' with 2 titles.  Ichiro was isolated up in SEA.  No big game events to get recognition nationally.  Hmmmm...dare I add, not "tested"?
> 
> Lou had 9,12, 14 hits.....during those WS.  Tested. Yes.



That's true.  Lou had a great record in post-season. One of the best ever.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 27, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> First ballot HOF
> 
> The man could flat out hit



Ichiro could hit SINGLES and that's about it.


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## MarathonMike (Dec 27, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> I'm lukewarm on Brock.  Although, he's more deserving than Jack Morris.  What a fuckup that selection is!


Well ok I'm with you on Jack Morris lol.


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## Old Yeller (Dec 27, 2017)

He was no Ricky Henderson...but 3000 hits is a magic number for the Alkie sportswriters who probably passed out before SEA games started? He probably goes in on Defense & style also.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 27, 2017)

Ichiro's numbers are better than half of the HOF.

Ichiro Suzuki Stats  | Baseball-Reference.com


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 27, 2017)

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.
> 
> 3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy



Brock a superb hitter???!!!!  He was scarcely better than average. You must be 30 years behind the times and still judge hitters by BA.  And he was a lousy fielder and his base stealing percentage was a mediocre 75%.  He really wasn't good at anything .


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Damn a racist OP starts a thread about Ichiro and gets all these responses.  I started a thread asking about who deserves to be the next in the Hall and no one comments.


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > First ballot HOF
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He was very prolific at it.....so were many other Hall of Famers

Ichiro hit the same number of HRs as Ty Cobb and many consider Cobb the best ever


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> JakeStarkey said:
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> > Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.
> ...



I remember Lou Brock
He was a presence on the field. Beyond his stats, he drove pitchers nuts once he got on base. Threw off their rhythm, made them continually throw to first, made the players around him better

Bill James does not account for that


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> [
> 
> Ichiro hit the same number of HRs as Ty Cobb and many consider Cobb the best ever



Are you serious??  For his day cobb was a GREAT slugger. He led his league in SA 8 times!!


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
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Cobbs game was closer to Ichiro than Babe Ruth


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
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Brock's metrics are great.  ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now.  He is not.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
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SS forgets that the decisions are based on a six tool metric for position players.  Ichiro and Brock do very, very well on that metic.


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## evenflow1969 (Dec 28, 2017)

Votto said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
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> 
> > He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> ...


What the fuck does that have to do with the thread. Ichiro has hall of fame numbers period. This is not about dems or repugs.  There is no cryin in baseball! Lets leave politics out of it too. Lets go purely on numbers. There are Holywood stars that are asian but this is a baseball thread.


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> rightwinger said:
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All I can say was that I saw Lou Brock play and there was never any question he belonged in the HOF
I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes


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## evenflow1969 (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> JakeStarkey said:
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Lou Brock was fucking awsome. Loved that guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MarathonMike (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
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Exactly! That is what these sabremetrics guys miss. The pressure that Brock put on the defense was huge not just on the pitcher but the middle infielders constantly having to move out of their normal positions opening holes for the hitter behind Brock. As also noted in this thread, Brock also came up big in every World Series he played in both hitting and on the bases. Getting back to Ichiro, he never had the chance to play in a WS but as a defender and all around player he compares well to Brock IMO which was why I brought him into the thread in the first place.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.
> 
> 3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy


3,000 hits is still the gold standard for Hall entry as a batter. As it should be.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes



Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters.  Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around.  Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Brock's metrics are great.  ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.
> 
> I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now.  He is not.



OK - what modern stats did brock do well at.?


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes
> ...



I disagree and think the game is losing a lot by ignoring the impact that speed has on the game

Players like Brock, Joe Morgan and Ricky Henderson did a lot more than take an extra base
They made the pitcher work, upset the pitcher/catcher dynamic, force errors, limit the type of pitches that can be thrown

I have seen many games where a pitcher is in a groove and nobody can handle his stuff. A walk or infield hit by a great base stealer throws him off his game, makes him throw to first, makes him change his pitch selection, and mostly....pisses him off


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## Vinnieboombotz (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.


A great baseball player.
He should absolutely be in the HOF.


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## Vinnieboombotz (Dec 28, 2017)

Pogo said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> ...


I still remember that throw from right field to 3rd base. Amazing.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
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> 
> > I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes
> ...


^^^ You have pointed out that you do not understand the game.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> JakeStarkey said:
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> > Brock's metrics are great.  ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.
> ...


You have been given the important stats.  You don't like them.  I don't care you don't like them.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
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Go look at game tape, folks, with Brock, or Flood, or Coleman, or Robinson bouncing up and down third base or first base, driving the pitcher and catcher to distraction.


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## Meathead (Dec 28, 2017)

Absolutely.


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


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Till his dying day, Yogi swore he made the tag


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## Meathead (Dec 28, 2017)

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

*SUMMARY*
*Career*

*Wins Above Replacement*
*A single number that presents the number of wins the player added*
*to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.*
*Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,*
*0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level *
*Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR*
54.1

*AB*
9645

*R*
1365

*H*
2757

*Hits/At Bats*
*For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA*
*per team game played*
*Bold indicates highest BA using current stats*
*Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA*
.286

*HR*
256

*RBI*
1169

*SB*
305

*(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)*
*For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA*
*per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP*
.327

*Total Bases/At Bats or *
*(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB*
*For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA*
*per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG*
.442

*On-Base + Slugging Percentages *
*For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA*
*per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS*
.769

*OPS+*
*100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]*
*Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+*
111


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.

Honus Wagner had a 131 WAR; Gred Maddux, 106.9; Ichiro, 59.6;


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Meathead said:


> Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:
> 
> It's not the Hall of Good
> 
> ...




Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats.  Bill Mazeroski for example.  Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.


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## Meathead (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.
> 
> Honus Wagner had a 131 WAR; Gred Maddux, 106.9; Ichiro, 59.6;


any player who dominates all of baseball for  4 years + is a HoFmer. My rule.


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.
> 
> Honus Wagner had a 131 WAR; Gred Maddux, 106.9; Ichiro, 59.6;



I think WAR is the dumbest stat ever invented

Nobody knows what it really means or how it is calculated


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

Thanks, rw.  I have no idea what it means.


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## Meathead (Dec 28, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> Meathead said:
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> > Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:
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Trammell was a SS, so yeah. Outfielders with Pinson's numbers are a dime-a-dozen.


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Luckily I picked up a couple cards recently before it was announced...  Got a Tim Raines RC and a Jack Morris RC.  I've picked up several rookies lately.  I got a nice Gary Carter... but the fucking post office damaged it.


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Meathead said:


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Yes Trammell was a SS but he still didn't have great stats that he should have in certain categories.  He had a career .977 fielding, most walks he had in a season was 69, only had 236 stolen bases... and worse of all was caught stealing 109 times!  He was barely over 50% successful stealing.


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.
> ...



I think WAR is all relative to how good the players at your position were compared to you
It does not take into account the fact that some eras have many, many star players at a position while other eras have just a few

Today we have many third basemen who put up great numbers....20 years ago there were just a few
A very good third baseman today would have a low WAR


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## Meathead (Dec 28, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > Lewdog said:
> ...


If you weren't ignorrant about baseball, you would understand that a .977 fielding % is not bad for a SS and that Trammell was an altogether more valuable player than Pinson. This isn't fantasy bb we're talking about.


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

Meathead said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...



I think both were good players but neither belongs in the Hall


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Meathead said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...




I'm not arguing for Pinson to be in.    I'm saying that the Hall of Fame is putting in some people that really aren't THAT great.


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## Old Yeller (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...




Buster Posey is a unanimous first ballot superb all-around player with 3 WS titles in 5 years. Who was better?

Like Brock.....when all on the line, they produce.  No one cares if Scooter Gennet hits 4 Hr in a May game in last place.

Winning us huge. Posey may be better than Molina in his prime?


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Posey is a great player, but Molina was a better defensive catcher in his prime.

I'm a Reds fan, and I can't believe how much better Scooter started playing when he got traded to the Reds.  Most homers he had hit in a season prior to this year was 14, then he hits 27 in 141 games for the Reds.  Had he played all 162 he might have hit 30.  He also hit .295 and had 97 RBIs.. as a SECOND BASEMAN!  That's insane.  He had some of the best stats for a second baseman in MLB and got absolutely no attention other than his 4 HR game.

...and despite the Reds having a 94 loss season, they actually joined a short list of teams to have SIX players hit over 20 homers in the same season.  Largest problem the Reds had is a very young starting pitching staff with a lot of injuries, and a shitty bull pen.  I think the Reds led the majors in the number of different pitchers to start a game in the season.


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## MarathonMike (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes
> ...


Off of first base? I'll agree that a guy dancing around off second


ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes
> ...


Ok you keep bringing up Brock's 25% throw out rate so let me respond to that. Let's look at someone from the same era who had a similar impact on the game with his speed that being Maury Wills. Yes Maury is not in the Hall but the point I would like to make is his throw out rate was WORSE than Lou Brocks! How can it be that two of the greatest base stealers in history could have such relatively poor success rates at stealing? Simple. When you are Lou Brock or Maury Wills everyone in the ballpark knows you are going to steal. The catcher is always ready, the pitcher gets the ball to home a fraction of a second quicker, the mid infielders are already hedging toward second. So yeah they got thrown out one out of 4 times but given that everyone and their Mom knew they were going to steal makes that all the more remarkable IMO.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 28, 2017)

Buster may make it, but only after years and years of eligibility.


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

MarathonMike said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Anyone know what Ty Cobbs percentage was?


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> MarathonMike said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...




There are a bunch of years his caught stealing numbers aren't listed so it is impossible to know.

Ty Cobb Stats  | Baseball-Reference.com


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Since this thread is about Ichiro, I just saw a stat that he is second all time to Vince Coleman's (50), but Ichiro had 45 stolen bases in a row before getting caught.

Here is the list of all-time stolen base percentages.  (Two of my favorite players all time are in the list, Barry Larkin and Eric Davis)

*Player* *SB* *Attempts* *SB%[39]*
Chase Utley 127 143 88.8%
_Carlos Beltrán_ 289 328 88.1%
*Tim Raines* *808* *954* *84.7%*
Eric Davis 349 415 84.1%
*Willie Wilson* *668* *802* *83.3%*
Barry Larkin 379 456 83.11%
Tony Womack 363 437 83.07%
_Jimmy Rollins_ 343 413 83.05%
*Davey Lopes* *557* *671* *83.01%*
_Carl Crawford_ 409 499 82.0%
Julio Cruz 343 421 81.5%
*Ichiro Suzuki* *508* *624* *81.4%
Joe Morgan* *689* *851* *80.96%
Vince Coleman* *752* *929* *80.95%
Rickey Henderson* *1406* *1741* *80.8%*

List of Major League Baseball stolen base records - Wikipedia


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > MarathonMike said:
> ...


Interesting

In the years reported Cobb looks like about 65 percent successful 

And he was considered the greatest base stealer of all time


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Yeah by far Ricky Henderson was the best lead off hitter and stolen base player of all-time.  And it's really not even close.


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## Old Yeller (Dec 28, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Buster may make it, but only after years and years of eligibility.


SF was down 2-0 vs. CIN (sorry Lew) after losing both home games.  Posey hit a GS to help win game 3.  SF won 3 straight to win the series.  On to a title.  


MarathonMike said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




SS is correct IMO. Some batters hate it, 15 throwovers. Pitcher holding ball, catcher visits, slow signs....Timing upset.  You need a #2 hiiter that can handle it.
When Coleman McGee Smith (Whitey Ball) got on they created havoc.  They could win 1-0 with a walk, SB, SAC and a SAC fly.

Speed kills. I don't know why they quit using it?  Juicers?  "Speed never slumps"   Joe Garigiola?


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## rightwinger (Dec 28, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Lewdog said:
> ...


I never saw anyone better


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Buster may make it, but only after years and years of eligibility.
> ...




Yeah the Reds are looking to trade Billy Hamilton and it bugs the shit out of me.  Despite his .250 average, and low OBP being below .300, he is a game changer on the bases and his defense.  He's just reached the point where he is going to demand a higher contract, and they have Winker who they need to find a spot for.


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## Old Yeller (Dec 28, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> Old Yeller said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...




I think Billy is great on the Reds.  I thought they would do better in 2017.  Votto had MVP year.  Like you said..... pitching under-performed? Need the Nasty boys back.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

Vinnieboombotz said:


> A great baseball player.
> He should absolutely be in the HOF.



Tell the truth.  You're a racist and support ichy because he's not one of those horrible white people you hate so much.  If you had your way Babe Ruth would be tossed out of the hall.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats.  Bill Mazeroski for example.  Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.



Both of them were great fielders and fielding metrics are still not that good.   The two recent inductees that bother me are sutter and gossage.  I don't like putting RPs in the Hall though i grant Mariano belongs and should make it in a few years.


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## MarathonMike (Dec 28, 2017)

Hamilton needs to get on a strength program. He is just too thin to hit, but if he can put on some muscle and up that BA now you REALLY got something. He is very good already.


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

MarathonMike said:


> Hamilton needs to get on a strength program. He is just too thin to hit, but if he can put on some muscle and up that BA now you REALLY got something. He is very good already.




His defense is just insane.  He led CF in outfield assists (13), and Duvall, another Red, led all OFers in outfield assists with 15.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> Yes Trammell was a SS but he still didn't have great stats that he should have in certain categories.  He had a career .977 fielding, most walks he had in a season was 69, only had 236 stolen bases... and worse of all was caught stealing 109 times!  He was barely over 50% successful stealing.



Hey einstein.  Those stats mean he was successful 68% of his attempted steals, not 50%.   You can't do 3rd grade arithmetic.  Few blacks can.


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## Lewdog (Dec 28, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Yes Trammell was a SS but he still didn't have great stats that he should have in certain categories.  He had a career .977 fielding, most walks he had in a season was 69, only had 236 stolen bases... and worse of all was caught stealing 109 times!  He was barely over 50% successful stealing.
> ...





Those stats still suck, and I'm not black.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 28, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> In the years reported Cobb looks like about 65 percent successful
> 
> And he was considered the greatest base stealer of all time



Cobb played in a low run era where if you had a 70% chance of stealing second, you went for it.


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## thereisnospoon (Dec 28, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> ...


I cannot believe the OP's anti Japanese rant.
Notwithstanding......Suzuki is one of the greatest hitters to pick up a bat. His stats compare to greats such as Pete Rose and Stan Musial.
Some of his accomplishments.
Between 2006 and 2010 he amasses 1114 hits while averaging nearly .330. As a rookie he had 242 hits. No other rookie had lead his league in base hits.
Averaged .350 4 times. With one season at .372.
He's got my vote...If I had one


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## Old Yeller (Dec 28, 2017)

thereisnospoon said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...




He was there when SEA won 116 games in 2001?  No WS titles.  242 hits is hard to argue with.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 29, 2017)

thereisnospoon said:


> Notwithstanding......Suzuki is one of the greatest hitters to pick up a bat. His stats compare to greats such as Pete Rose and Stan Musial.


Suzy does compare well to rose.  Both men had good BA and little power.  Musial is something else.  Far far above either man as a hitter.  Stan is one of the top 5 hitters of all time.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 29, 2017)

Don't need racial or personal slurs in this thread and forum, SS.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 29, 2017)

Billy Hamilton has some way to go to move from a good player to a very good player.  It will only take an extra five to six times getting on base per hundred at bats.


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## rightwinger (Dec 29, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> Billy Hamilton has some way to go to move from a good player to a very good player.  It will only take an extra five to six times getting on base per hundred at bats.



His on base percentage has always been pretty bad for a base stealer. I look at him like a Vince Coleman. Great base stealer but one dimensional. Not HOF material


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 29, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Billy Hamilton has some way to go to move from a good player to a very good player.  It will only take an extra five to six times getting on base per hundred at bats.
> ...


Yup.


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## Lewdog (Dec 29, 2017)

JakeStarkey said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...




What you guys have to also realize is, Billy Hamilton is a converted shortstop to CF.  It's amazing how he's been able to adapt and become such a great defensive player.


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## Papageorgio (Dec 29, 2017)

It is an easy choice, put him in the HOF his numbers are HOF numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lewdog (Dec 29, 2017)

The OP is talking shit about the Japanese leagues... so it reminds me of a trivia question.  Name the player that was a team mate at one time of both Home run king Hank Aaron and Japanese Home run king Sadaharu Oh.

.


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## rightwinger (Dec 29, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> The OP is talking shit about the Japanese leagues... so it reminds me of a trivia question.  Name the player that was a team mate at one time of both Home run king Hank Aaron and Japanese Home run king Sadaharu Oh.
> 
> .


Davey Johnson?


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## Lewdog (Dec 29, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > The OP is talking shit about the Japanese leagues... so it reminds me of a trivia question.  Name the player that was a team mate at one time of both Home run king Hank Aaron and Japanese Home run king Sadaharu Oh.
> ...




Yep, pretty crazy isn't it?


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## Synthaholic (Dec 29, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Brock's metrics are great.  ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.
> ...


3,000 hits, moron.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 29, 2017)

Meathead said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...


It ain't a good percentage for a shortstop, either.

He's tied for 30th all-time.

Career Leaders & Records for Fielding % as SS | Baseball-Reference.com


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## Synthaholic (Dec 29, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> I'm saying that the Hall of Fame is putting in some people that really aren't THAT great.


They're still miles ahead of the loathsome Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, which is a disgrace.  At least the BB HoF looks at some statistics.

This year Dire Fucking Straights is being inducted on the strength of 'Sultans of Swing' and 'Walk of Life'.  Meanwhile, Jethro Tull and Kansas are overlooked again.

Jan Wenner sucks.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 29, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


World Series titles are irrelevant.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 29, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> Anyone know what Ty Cobbs percentage was?


4th career, with 897.  Couldn't find a percentage.

Looking up Cobb is always fun.  He was 1st in everything!


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## Synthaholic (Dec 29, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Vinnieboombotz said:
> 
> 
> > A great baseball player.
> ...


Babe Ruth was part Black.


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## Synthaholic (Dec 29, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > Notwithstanding......Suzuki is one of the greatest hitters to pick up a bat. His stats compare to greats such as Pete Rose and Stan Musial.
> ...


List your top 5 hitters.  Are you talking strictly batting averages?


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## Zander (Dec 29, 2017)

Ichiro will definitely be in the HOF and he has earned it.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 29, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> The OP is talking shit about the Japanese leagues...
> 
> .



Ichiro's stats in japan were much much better than here in america. Jap ball is double A ball.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 30, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Tell the truth.  You're a racist and support ichy because he's not one of those horrible white people you hate so much.  If you had your way Babe Ruth would be tossed out of the hall.
> ...



That was the rumor.  He did have a very broad nose.


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## Lewdog (Dec 30, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > The OP is talking shit about the Japanese leagues...
> ...




Japan has much more indoor stadiums and almost every one f them have artificial turf which helps guys like Ichrio that are slap hitters.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 30, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Suzy does compare well to rose.  Both men had good BA and little power.  Musial is something else.  Far far above either man as a hitter.  Stan is one of the top 5 hitters of all time.
> ...



Batting average???   No way.   I look at everything.  My list is ---ruth williams gehrig bonds musial.  Maybe i should put cobb in there and make stan number 6.  Hate to leave out hornsby but injuries cut short his career.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 30, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> Japan has much more indoor stadiums and almost every one f them have artificial turf which helps guys like Ichrio that are slap hitters.



Are the fences closer too?  Ichy had a lot more HRs per year in japan than in america.


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## Yarddog (Dec 30, 2017)

martybegan said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...




He also batted over for 18 consecutive years going back to his career in Japan. 10 of those were for the Mariners. that sounds pretty damn reliable to me for a guy who is a base stealer


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## Yarddog (Dec 30, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.




This is obviously a joke thread


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## Meathead (Dec 30, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > Lewdog said:
> ...


30 out of 288 ain't good?


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## rightwinger (Dec 30, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > I'm saying that the Hall of Fame is putting in some people that really aren't THAT great.
> ...



Joe Cocker never made it


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## rightwinger (Dec 30, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


No Willie Mays?


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## Lewdog (Dec 30, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...




No Tony Gwynn?  He hit .394 one year, and was a career .338 hitter.  I think you really need to give his numbers a lot more credence compared to some guys of the older years that weren't always hitting against guys throwing high 90's.


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## martybegan (Dec 30, 2017)

Yarddog said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > TheOldSchool said:
> ...



I doubt the writers will include his Japan time in their decisions, but I don't think they need to anyway. 

During his prime, he was one of the defining players of his time period at his position.


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## rightwinger (Dec 30, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Gwynn was the best pure hitter of his era. But he lacked the power numbers.


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## Old Yeller (Dec 30, 2017)

If relief pitchers can't get in.........no DH in either.

Big PapSmear......you are out. He another Juicer,  with Manny.  Manny will get in.  It is a popularity contest, MSM driven.

Disclaimer:  strike of 94', free agency, umps, juicers....drove me off.  Got sucked back in little by little mid-2000s'  now "back" 75%?

The umps seem much better these days (balls/strikes are still difficult).  

Crankmees (maybe other big market?) used to get every playoff call vs. Small market teams.......this seems improved since the 2000s IMVHO.  KC, Minn got hosed a few times around George Brett days.

Finally to those who say WS titles don't matter? Huh? This is why they play.  Remember Georger Brett or Mr. October?  Clutch.  Stats only is a rough way to go.   I know I know.....you may be on a weak team.


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## Lewdog (Dec 30, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> If relief pitchers can't get in.........no DH in either.
> 
> Big PapSmear......you are out. He another Juicer,  with Manny.  Manny will get in.  It is a popularity contest, MSM driven.
> 
> ...




'94 strike took away a possible Reds Championship, where they would have more than likely faced off against the Yankees in the World Series.


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## Old Yeller (Dec 30, 2017)

George Foster.......should he get in?  on the series vs. BOS 1975?  He made a throw to home to save a game? I saw it replayed recently. Clutch defensive play. And 52 HR in one year.

Bill Mazerozki got in on one WS HR.


Edit:  excuse me. I got carried away.  I forgot, it HOF career,  not season or event.


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## Lewdog (Dec 30, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> George Foster.......should he get in?  on the series vs. BOS 1975?  He made a throw to home to save a game? I saw it replayed recently. Clutch defensive play. And 52 HR in one year.
> 
> Bill Mazerozki got in on one WS HR.



I loved Foster.  He was such an under-rated defensive player.  His 3 years span of stats from '75-'77 were some of the best you'll see.  He averaged 40 HR, 130 RBI, .310 BA... won MVP in '77, had 5 years he led LFers in defensive percentage but never won a Gold Glove.

Unfortunately he didn't have enough power throughout the rest of his career outside of those three years.  He doesn't have at least 400 HRs, his RBIs aren't that high, and most importantly he was a .274 career hitter with a low OBP of .338.  

If he had hit 400 HR, had 2,000 RBI, and hit closer to .290-.300 he'd get in.  For a guy that played 20+ years his stats are just not enough.  He is a super nice guy though.  I've met him before.

You want to argue a guy that should get in?

Harold Baines!


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## Lewdog (Dec 30, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> George Foster.......should he get in?  on the series vs. BOS 1975?  He made a throw to home to save a game? I saw it replayed recently. Clutch defensive play. And 52 HR in one year.
> 
> Bill Mazerozki got in on one WS HR.
> 
> ...




and in case you missed it in another thread, I picked this up a couple days ago.  I've been picking up a lot of cards lately.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 30, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



No willie mays.  He was maybe the greatest player of all time but as a hitter i would put him somewhere around number 10.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 30, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> No Tony Gwynn?  He hit .394 one year, and was a career .338 hitter.  I think you really need to give his numbers a lot more credence compared to some guys of the older years that weren't always hitting against guys throwing high 90's.



Batting average??  HAHAHA.  You're only 40 years behind the times.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 30, 2017)

Old Yeller said:


> George Foster.......should he get in?  on the series vs. BOS 1975?  He made a throw to home to save a game? I saw it replayed recently. Clutch defensive play. And 52 HR in one year.
> 
> .



Foster was  a great player  - for a few years.  But clearly not good enough for the Hall.


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## rightwinger (Dec 30, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Hit for power, hit for average, great speed on the bases


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## thereisnospoon (Dec 30, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > thereisnospoon said:
> ...


No their overall value. 
For example. 
A .300 hitter that does not score a lot of runs is not as valuable as a .260 hitter that produces runs. 

In 1988 Andres Gallaraga had what on the surface looked like a terrific season. 
He led the NL in base hits with 184. But he also had the dubious distinction of being the first and ONLY player to lead that category AND also record the most strikeouts. Yep he whiffed 157 times. That means he stuck out 22.3 % of the time he stepped up to the plate. So no, the guy with a lot of hits is not the best hitter. That's 157 times he was unable to advance a runner. or put the ball in play. 
Same season. Andre Dawson had just 5 fewer hits, but struck out 80 fewer times. His power numbers were comparable to Gallaraga's. My selection in this comparison would be Dawson. Hands down.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 30, 2017)

thereisnospoon said:


> In 1988 Andres Gallaraga had what on the surface looked like a terrific season.
> He led the NL in base hits with 184. But he also had the dubious distinction of being the first and ONLY player to lead that category AND also record the most strikeouts. Yep he whiffed 157 times. That means he stuck out 22.3 % of the time he stepped up to the plate. So no, the guy with a lot of hits is not the best hitter.



Are you serious?  Strikeouts aren't important.   Mike Trout strikes out a lot as did mickey mantle and reggie jackson and a-rod.


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## Lewdog (Dec 30, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > In 1988 Andres Gallaraga had what on the surface looked like a terrific season.
> ...



They aren't?  When you strike out, you can't move over the runner, or hit Sacrifice flies.


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## thereisnospoon (Dec 30, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > In 1988 Andres Gallaraga had what on the surface looked like a terrific season.
> ...


Wow. Ok....
Last 5 seasons ...
Mike Trout, OBP..... .432, 377, .402, ,443, 442,
Also, despite Trout's injury filled season (114 games) He had an OPS 1,071. To compare anyone to Trout is a bit suspect. Trout is one of just a handful of what are known as "five tool' players.  Speed, power, great throwing /fielding ability, hit for high average. He's a freak. So is Bryce Harper. At one time in his career, Alex Rodriguez was thought to be a 5 tool guy. 
Jackson did in his early career strike out a lot. But from season 5 thru the end of his career, his base hits always exceeded his strikeouts.


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## ShootSpeeders (Dec 31, 2017)

thereisnospoon said:


> Also, despite Trout's injury filled season (114 games) He had an OPS 1,071. .



OPS is not a cumulative stat so it doesn't matter how many games he played. WAR is a cumulative stat and trout had 6.7 in that.  That is really great.  That's 9.5 for a full 162 games. He had 5 straight years where he was 1 or 2 in  MVP voting.  This year he came in 4th.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Dec 31, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Are you serious?  Strikeouts aren't important.   Mike Trout strikes out a lot as did mickey mantle and reggie jackson and a-rod.
> ...



No DP either.


----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


You included one Black guy.  Baby steps, I guess.

You left out Hank Aaron.  Ernie Banks.  For pure hitters, Tony Gwynn.  Rod Carew.  Wade Boggs.

If you're looking at everything, the list of all-time non-pitchers should start with:

Babe Ruth
Hank Aaron


----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)

Meathead said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...


288 aren't being inducted into the HoF.  Look at 1-29.  Most of them are not HoF worthy, but still better fielders than Trammel.


----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


He's Black.


----------



## Unkotare (Dec 31, 2017)

Obviously Ichiro is a first-ballot hall of famer.


----------



## Meathead (Dec 31, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Oh, ffs. Half of them aren't yet eligible for HoF and the other half couldn't hit.


----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)

Ready for the real injustice?


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 31, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...




You can add Joey Votto to that list if he can have at least 4 more good years.


----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)




----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)




----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)

Meathead said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...


2365 hits in 20 years for Trammell.  Not exactly a hit machine.  Which means he's getting in based largely on his fielding, which was average.


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 31, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> Ready for the real injustice?
> 
> 
> View attachment 168855




Yeah plus I think McGriff is only one of three players in MLB history to lead each league in homeruns for a season, and had 15 seasons of at least 20 homers.


----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)




----------



## ShootSpeeders (Dec 31, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > .  My list is ---ruth williams gehrig bonds musial.  Maybe i should put cobb in there and make stan number 6.  Hate to leave out hornsby but injuries cut short his career.
> ...



Well - 1 black out of 5 is 20% and that's about what percentage blacks are in MLB.  Anyway hank was a great hitter but not equal to ruth or teddy.  As for ernie banks???  HAHAHA.  A good hitter but not super .  Gwynn, carew, and boggs were all singles hitters.  I can't believe you are still hung up on batting average.  Do you know what century this is?


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Dec 31, 2017)

Synthaholic said:


> Ready for the real injustice?
> 
> 
> View attachment 168855



Mcgriff has HOF stats though he played in the steroid era and people wonder. What really hurt him is he was not considered a great player at the time.  Never finished in the top 3 in MVP voting.   Always just good ol' fred.


----------



## Synthaholic (Dec 31, 2017)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Ready for the real injustice?
> ...


No one wonders if McGriff used steroids.  No one.


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 4, 2018)

Though he isn't in the HoF, he has been talked about in this thread.  I picked up a Maury Wills auto card today.


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 4, 2018)

Just picked me Up a Frank Robinson Auto card too.


----------



## Unkotare (Jan 4, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Though he isn't in the HoF, he has been talked about in this thread.  I picked up a Maury Wills auto card today.





He’d better get back to 1985 and fix things, ‘cause he’s starting to fade from existence! 

Get to the Enchantment Under the Sea dance, man!


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 4, 2018)

Been a good night.  Picked up another HoF player.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 4, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Been a good night.  Picked up another HoF player.



Gaylord Perry!!!  He's the biggest cheater in sports history.  Why is he in the HOF but bonds and clemens aren't ?


----------



## Pinky Binky (Jan 5, 2018)

martybegan said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Coming to the Majors at what?? 27? Unreal.
Great base runner.
Clutch lead off man.
Great center fielder.
Had some power.116 homers
65 av strikeouts a yr
500 stolen bases
Great right fielder.
Near .990 fielding percent
near .350 av in 80 post-season playoffs. 80 at bats

Ohhh. And nearly 3100 hits.

Nope. Does not have what it takes for the HOF.

Ichiro Suzuki Stats  | Baseball-Reference.com


----------



## Unkotare (Jan 5, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Been a good night.  Picked up another HoF player.
> ...



I can't imagine why Clemens is suspected of anything....


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 5, 2018)

Pinky Binky said:


> Coming to the Majors at what?? 27? Unreal.
> Great base runner.
> Clutch lead off man.
> Great center fielder.
> ...



Right or wrong, many fans today judge players by their WAR rating and ichoro's is NOT up to HOF standards.


----------



## Pinky Binky (Jan 5, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Pinky Binky said:
> 
> 
> > Coming to the Majors at what?? 27? Unreal.
> ...


No one is perfect. Lol. The writers and vet players pick the HOF


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.



Urine idiot.

He's a guaranteed HoF player, as he should be.  Lifetime .312 hitter, 3,000 hits, 500 stolen bases, 10x Gold Glove winner, 10x All-Star, MVP, ten *consecutive* 200-hit seasons (only Rose matched that, though not consecutively), holds the MLB record for hits (262 in 2004, beating a record than had stood for 80+ years and hadn't been seriously challenged since WW2) in a season. This despite starting about six years late, due to playing in Japan until age 27.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

Pogo said:


> The fact that the OP doesn't even have to post the player's last name undermines his own racism.


He has been known simple as "Ichiro" for 20 years.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > First ballot.  No question.
> ...


By that, ahem, "logic," so was Wade Boggs. (8 home runs per 162 games.)


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

Old Yeller said:


> MarathonMike said:
> 
> 
> > I tried to think of a HOF player who is similar to Ichiro in terms of stats. I came up with Lou Brock the base stealing wizard of the Cardinals back in the day. Ichiros stats overall are better in many categories than Brock's so I would say yes he belongs in the Hall.
> ...


Andrew Benintendi or Jackie Bradley Jr.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

JakeStarkey said:


> Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.
> 
> 3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy


.293 and little or no power is not a "superb" hitter.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > MarathonMike said:
> ...


Caught-stealing was not tracked reliably until the early 1920s.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

thereisnospoon said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Not true: Johnny Pesky led the major leagues with 205 hits in 1942.  He also led the American League in 1946 and MLB again in 1947.  He is the only one to do so his first three seasons. (He did not play 1943-45 due to military service.)


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > Notwithstanding......Suzuki is one of the greatest hitters to pick up a bat. His stats compare to greats such as Pete Rose and Stan Musial.
> ...


No, he isn't.  (30th in batting average, 22nd in OBP, 17th in slugging)


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Sounds like Mookie Betts.  He was drafted as an infielder, but is now one of the best right fielders in baseball.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone know what Ty Cobbs percentage was?
> ...



Yeahno.  OBP 9th (FIFTY POINTS below the greatest ever, Ted Williams), slugging percentage 77th.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Japan has much more indoor stadiums and almost every one f them have artificial turf which helps guys like Ichrio that are slap hitters.
> ...


He has played in pitchers' parks here.  Safeco Field has a deep outfield.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


No: Babe Ruth and Ted Williams.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Actually, Wade Boggs was good for 35+ doubles (51 in 1989!) a season-he definitely knew how to use Fenway Park to his advantage.


----------



## rightwinger (Jan 13, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.
> ...



.293 lifetime is not too shabby when you steal 900 bases


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 13, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.
> ...



Brock also had low walk numbers.  He was really just a slightly above average hitter. How anyone can call him a superb hitter is scary.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 13, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > [Suzy does compare well to rose.  Both men had good BA and little power.  Musial is something else.  Far far above either man as a hitter.  Stan is one of the top 5 hitters of all time.
> ...



Exactly.   That combination of hitting puts stan in the top 5 in my book.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 13, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > .293 and little or no power is not a "superb" hitter.
> ...



Base-stealing is part of offense but not part of hitting.  THINK


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 13, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > If you're looking at everything, the list of all-time non-pitchers should start with:
> ...



Maybe.  Ted was a better hitter than hank but hank was a better fielder and baserunner.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 13, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Then you are a moron. (Not that THAT is news.)


----------



## rightwinger (Jan 14, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jarlaxle said:
> ...


Part of total bases


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 14, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


No, that is wrong.


----------



## rightwinger (Jan 14, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Still is


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 14, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Still is


No, it is not.  Stolen bases do NOT count for total bases.


----------



## rightwinger (Jan 14, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Still is
> ...


Still is a total base

Not my fault baseball doesn't know how to collect statistics.....they even invented the save and WAR


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 14, 2018)

Continuing to regurgitate an incorrect statement does not make it correct, only annoying.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 14, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > No, it is not.  Stolen bases do NOT count for total bases.
> ...



So YOU count a stolen base as part of total bases but no one else does.  

I agree the save stat is a joke but WAR is pretty good.  The big flaw with war is deciding how many points a fielding position is worth.  Everyone agrees SS is worth more that 1B but how much more.? No good way to answer that and the way it's done now is too arbitrary.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 14, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


It's your right as an American to be wrong, and your duty as a Republican.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 14, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > ShootSpeeders said:
> ...


Plus, he's White.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 14, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


WAY better fielder. And I don't think anyone can make the argument that Williams was a better offensive player than Henry Aaron.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 14, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> WAY better fielder. And I don't think anyone can make the argument that Williams was a better offensive player than Henry Aaron.



Are you serious.?    Hanks ba/obp/sa were great but Ted's were super human.  Hank's better baserunning cannot make up for the huge difference at the plate.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 14, 2018)

STILL the all-time RBI leader.

STILL the all-time Total Base leader.

STILL the legitimate all-time Home Run leader.


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 14, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> STILL the all-time RBI leader.
> 
> STILL the all-time Total Base leader.
> 
> ...



Ted Williams missed some of his prime years because he served in the war.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 14, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Hanks *ba/obp/sa* were great but Ted's were super human.


After you've spent the entire thread arguing that batting average and all the old way of measuring is obsolete.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 14, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > STILL the all-time RBI leader.
> ...


Ok.  Sorry, but he doesn't get credited with offensive stats he never compiled.

ETA:  Aaron also played in the most competitive era of MLB.  And he did it while having to deal with racism, and sometimes staying in substandard hotels while his White teammates stayed in every city's best hotels.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 14, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> ShootSpeeders said:
> 
> 
> > Jarlaxle said:
> ...



Actually, that is quite a simple case to make, and I just realized that it isn't even close.  Williams has a better batting average (40 points, despite a sacrifice fly being counted as an at-bat for most of his career), better OBP (a staggering 108 points, best in baseball history), higher slugging percentage (80 points), and better seasonal averages in just about every category. (Notably, home runs per 162 games are identical, at 37.)

Compared to Aaron, Ted Williams hit for better average, got on base A LOT more, batted in more runs per game, walked TWICE as often while not striking out as much, and has more total bases per season.  Also note: age 41 Aaron was stumbling to a .234 average. At age 41, Ted Williams hit .316 with a 1.096 OPS. (Which is better than Aaron's best OPS.)  Ted Williams was head and shoulders superior to Henry Aaron.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 14, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> It's your right as an American to be wrong, and your duty as a Republican.


It is your right to be stupid...but you abuse that right.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 14, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > STILL the all-time RBI leader.
> ...


Most of five seasons.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 14, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Aaron played not quite half his career (9 of 23 seasons) after the pitcher's mound was lowered.


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 14, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...




Wait, what?  You aren't going to give Ted Williams credit for taking years off during the PRIME of his career to serve his country in the war?...  Really?  

"In all, Williams missed about seven seasons serving his country and parts of others dealing with nagging injuries relating to his time at war."

What if Ted Williams never left baseball to serve in the military?

*SUMMARY*
*Career*

*Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level 
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR*
123.2

*AB*
7706

*R*
1798

*H*
2654

*Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA*
.344

*HR*
521

*RBI*
1839

*SB*
24

*(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP*
.482

*Total Bases/At Bats or 
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG*
.634

*On-Base + Slugging Percentages 
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS*
1.116

*OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+*
190

Ted Williams Stats  | Baseball-Reference.com

521 homers while missing 7 seasons... he would EASILY be the All-time HR champ had he not served.

My grandfather was actually stationed with Williams in Florida and used to work on Williams car all the time.  Sadly I never met him because he died in a hunting accident when my father was a baby.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 15, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > STILL the all-time RBI leader.
> ...



Some??  It was 5 years taken out of his prime.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 15, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> ETA:  Aaron also played in the most competitive era of MLB.  And he did it while having to deal with racism,.



HAHAHA.  When you play the racist card, you have admitted you lost the argument.  HAHA


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 17, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


And J.R. Richards is the all-time strikeout king!

Well, he would have been if he hadn't died.

Nice argument.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 17, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Lewdog said:
> ...


Then all players after they changed the mound are disqualified from consideration.

Nice argument.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jan 17, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Wait, what? You aren't going to give Ted Williams credit for taking years off during the PRIME of his career to serve his country in the war?... Really?
> 
> "In all, Williams missed about seven seasons serving his country and parts of others dealing with nagging injuries relating to his time at war."


He doesn't get credit for at bats he never took, no.

Should we award Don Mattingly ten more 200 hit seasons because of his back injury?  He surely would have had them if he hadn't gotten injured.


----------



## Marion Morrison (Jan 17, 2018)

Idk, but Pete Rose should! 

You ever done a Pete Rose dive? That's serious business!


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 17, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, what? You aren't going to give Ted Williams credit for taking years off during the PRIME of his career to serve his country in the war?... Really?
> ...




Getting injured playing the game isn't the same as volunteering during a WAR to serve your country.

Just like JR Richard being a coke addict isn't the same as being a pilot in a WAR.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 17, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > Ted Williams missed some of his prime years because he served in the war.Most of five seasons.
> ...



Military service is not at all the same as injuries.  Injuries are in a sense,  the player's fault. His body is not tough enough.  But forced military service is NOT the player's fault.  THINK


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 17, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Getting injured playing the game isn't the same as volunteering during a WAR to serve your country.
> 
> .



Ted didn't really volunteer for WW2.  He knew he would have been drafted.

As for Korea, ted was a member of the Marine Corps reserves and was called up.


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 17, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Getting injured playing the game isn't the same as volunteering during a WAR to serve your country.
> ...



He got a hardship deferral because he was his mother's lone caretaker... then he caught flak for it, so he volunteered.


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 17, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> He got a hardship deferral because he was his mother's lone caretaker... then he caught flak for it, so he volunteered.



He would have been drafted eventually and everyone knows it.  THINK


----------



## Lewdog (Jan 17, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > He got a hardship deferral because he was his mother's lone caretaker... then he caught flak for it, so he volunteered.
> ...



No... he was the soul caretaker for his mother, that wasn't going to change.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 17, 2018)

Synthaholic said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Stop responding to the voices in your head.


----------



## GHook93 (Jan 17, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good.  He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low.  Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.
> 
> He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!.  I  say no HOF for the little nip.



Are you fucking kidding? 

He had 10 straight seasons of 200+ hits (the most ever), holds the record of 262 hits in a season, .312 BA, 3k career hits (which was amazing given how late he started his ML career), 1400 runs, 700 SB, 10 allstars (all deserved), ROY, 1 MVP, 10 gold gloves and 3 Silver sluggers.

Ichiro is right behind Rickey Henderson and Pete Rose as the best leadoff hitter.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 18, 2018)

GHook93 said:


> He had 10 straight seasons of 200+ hits (the most ever), holds the record of 262 hits in a season, .312 BA, 3k career hits (which was amazing given how late he started his ML career), 1400 runs, 700 SB, 10 allstars (all deserved), ROY, 1 MVP, 10 gold gloves and 3 Silver sluggers.
> 
> Ichiro is right behind Rickey Henderson and Pete Rose as the best leadoff hitter.



I would probably rate ichy above rose but that's not saying much. Henderson was truly great and ichy is well behind him.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Jan 18, 2018)

You are a moron. Kill yourself.


----------



## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > He had 10 straight seasons of 200+ hits (the most ever), holds the record of 262 hits in a season, .312 BA, 3k career hits (which was amazing given how late he started his ML career), 1400 runs, 700 SB, 10 allstars (all deserved), ROY, 1 MVP, 10 gold gloves and 3 Silver sluggers.
> ...



Rating Ichiro higher than Rose? The all time hit leader? He had 4K and they say if you get 3k hits your a HOFer! He lead the Big Red Machine! He was truly awesome.

I am not sure your a baseball fan!


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> He has 3000 hits as a Major Leaguer and he entered the league late, having massive years in Japan.  It's safe to say if he had spent his younger years in the MLB, he would be a first ballot.
> 
> I imagine he will get in.



He is first ballot now. If he came out earlier, he would have foresure surpassed Rose’s hit total!


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## ShootSpeeders (Jan 19, 2018)

GHook93 said:


> Rating Ichiro higher than Rose? The all time hit leader? He had 4K and they say if you get 3k hits your a HOFer! He lead the Big Red Machine! He was truly awesome.



So pete is the all-time hit leader.   He was pretty a good hitter but his walks numbers were average and his power below average.


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## GHook93 (Jan 20, 2018)

ShootSpeeders said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Rating Ichiro higher than Rose? The all time hit leader? He had 4K and they say if you get 3k hits your a HOFer! He lead the Big Red Machine! He was truly awesome.
> ...



What the fuck are you talking about Rose was lead-off hitter, so his job was to get on base not hit home runs. He has a career .375 OBA (which would have been closer to .400 if he didn’t stay in the game way passed when he should have retired). He had an OBA above .400 many years. He typically walker btw 80-100 times.


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