# Are the Palestinians a real people?



## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 28, 2019)

They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.


In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.

Why does Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state?  Is this what the world really needs?


----------



## Natural Citizen (Nov 28, 2019)

So tired of the ramblings of professional victims.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 28, 2019)

Natural Citizen said:


> So tired of the ramblings of professional victims.



Do you mean the Palestinians or the Jews?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Nov 28, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Natural Citizen said:
> 
> 
> > So tired of the ramblings of professional victims.
> ...


I don't know what he was intending, but the so-called Palestinians have turned their pretend victimization into a multi billion dollar industry.

They murder Jews, they whine if they are prevented in any way from doing so and the world rewards them by sending them boatloads of cash.

this has to be the only group in the world where ethic based mass murder provides their main source of income.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 28, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...


----------



## Kondor3 (Nov 28, 2019)

No. Arab-Muslim so-called 'Palestinians' are not a 'real' (separate and distinguishable) people, neither ethnically nor politically.

They are a rag-tag collection of tribal fragments; many of them the descendants of drifters, only recently arrived.

More importantly, they foolishly chose to stay in 'refugee' camps and towns for multiple generations rather than facing reality and leaving.

Under-performers and losers who 'never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.'

Even their Arab-Muslim neighbors have long-since written them off as (collectively) too stupid to ever become a viable nation.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 28, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...


Why do you need to deny Palestinians their identity in order to support Jewish rights?


----------



## Shusha (Nov 28, 2019)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> ...




Its NOT their identity to speak Arabic, wear keffiya and hijab, eat hummus and shwarma, celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son?

Seems to me ForeverYoung436 was accepting Arab Palestinian identity, rather than denying it.


----------



## admonit (Nov 29, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


It's not.


> Seems to me ForeverYoung436 was accepting Arab Palestinian identity, rather than denying it.


You consider the words "like in 21 other countries" as support of Palestinian identity? OK...


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

admonit said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I’m pretty sure you missed my point and my sarcasm here. 

Arab Palestinian identity IS Arab.


----------



## admonit (Nov 29, 2019)

Shusha said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


OK
So, Palestinian Arabs have no special identity? But you insist that they have special rights, even national rights.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Nov 29, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...



He can’t stand the fact that the Jewish State exists. His desperation? The You Tube Video he posts where HASIDIC Hews are dancing with Hamas. Enjoy it


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 29, 2019)

admonit said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...



Although you asked this of Shusha, I'll give my own answer until she gives hers.  They have no special identity, but they happen to live in the Land, unfortunately.  So if they agree to share it, I'd be willing to let them have their own national rights.  If they want to take over all of it, then not.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

admonit said:


> OK
> So, Palestinian Arabs have no special identity? But you insist that they have special rights, even national rights.



The right to self-identification is not a "special right". It is a human right applicable to ALL peoples.

The Arab Palestinians do have a unique identity.  That identity is Arab and was developed in the past 100 years as a national identity, largely as an opposing force to Jewish reclamation of their homeland.  What the Arab Palestinians do NOT have is a heritage or culture which stretches backwards in time beyond the Islamic invasion and colonization.  Why?  Because their identity does not include any of the unique cultural attributes from earlier cultures.  (And, I'd argue, their attempt to co-opt those previous cultures is nothing more than a scam to further remove Jews from their own history.  The Arabs are not invested in re-constituting the Canaanite and Israelite cultures, let's be honest.  They are fully committed to being Arabs.)

So, are you the one to prove Coyote right by saying that Arab Palestinians shouldn't have a nation because ... Arabs?  If so, then you are no better than Tinmore who insists that Jews can't have a nation because ... Jews.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Nov 29, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...



Of course they are real. They are flesh and blood. They are Arabs, a nomadic people who migrated into the middle east from North Africa during the great drought of the 2nd century AD when the Mediterranean had receded.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



You do realize that Palestinians are also Christian?

And how is attempting to portray them as just like any other Arab accepting their identity?  It isn’t.  It is denying their identity as Palestinians.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> You do realize that Palestinians are also Christian?
> 
> And how is attempting to portray them as just like any other Arab accepting their identity?  It isn’t.  It is denying their identity as Palestinians.



Constitution of Palestine

Article 1.  Palestine is part of the larger Arab world, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab nation. Arab unity is an objective that the Palestinian people shall work to achieve.

Article 4
1. Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained. 
2. The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be a principal source of legislation.
3. Arabic shall be the official language.


Why are you trying to deny that Arab Palestinians identity is Arab?


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You do realize that Palestinians are also Christian?
> ...



I am saying their identity is Palestinian within a larger Arab cultural affiliation.  Like Cherokee are Cherokee but also Native American.  More to the point though, Arab is a much broader term than simply meaning those who came from the Arabian peninsula as many here try to claim the Palestinians are.

What does Arabization mean?


Arabization

Arabization or Arabisation describes a growing cultural influence on a non-Arab area that gradually changes into one that speaks Arabic and/or incorporates Arab culture and Arab identity. It was most prominently achieved during the 7th century Arabian Muslim conquests which spread the Arabic language, culture, and—having been carried out by Arabian Muslims as opposed to Arab Christians or Arabic speaking Jews—the religion of Islam to the lands they conquered. The result: some elements of Arabian origin combined in various forms and degrees with elements taken from conquered civilizations and ultimately denominated "Arab", as opposed to "Arabian". After the rise of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula, Arab culture and language spread through trade with African states, conquest, and intermarriage of the non-Arab local population with the Arabs, in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Iraq and the Sudan. The peninsular Arabic language became common among these areas; dialects also formed. Also, though Yemen is traditionally held to be the homeland of Arabs, most of the population did not speak Arabic prior to the spread of Islam. The influence of Arabic has also been profound in many other countries whose cultures have been influenced by Islam. Arabic was a major source of vocabulary for languages as diverse as Berber, spoken Indonesian, Tagalog, Malay, Maltese, Portuguese, Sindhi, Punjabi, Somali, Spanish, Swahili, Turkish, Urdu, as well as other languages in countries where these languages are spoken; a process that reached its high point in the 10th to the 14th centuries, the high point of Arabic culture, and although many of these words have fallen out of use since then, many remain. For example the Arabic word for book /kita:b/ is used in all the languages listed, apart from Malay and Indonesian and Portuguese and Spanish.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> I am saying their identity is Palestinian ...



Yes.  I agree.

But there is no way to define "Palestinian" as a meaningful term until 100 years ago.  Any attempt to define it prior to that gets awfully muddy.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Like Cherokee are Cherokee but also Native American.



Except Cherokee is a very distinct culture.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


They, as a native population, have the exact saying rights of place as the Jewish population. 

Now I would agree that national self determination is tied to the ability live peaceably with their neighbors and create a sustainable state.

But they have their own identity, and it is not up to you, or any one else to decide whether it is “legitimate”, it is up to them.


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 29, 2019)

The indigenous Palestinians & their offspring that are Jews are indeed a real people. Long before the development of Islam & Muslims in the land who now claim to be Palestinians.


----------



## Bruce_T_Laney (Nov 29, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Natural Citizen said:
> 
> 
> > So tired of the ramblings of professional victims.
> ...



Both


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Like Cherokee are Cherokee but also Native American.
> ...


How distinct is distinct enough?  And..what is the cut off...when has enough time passed for a group to be considered legitimate.  The Palestinians have been in the process of creating a distinct identity for some time now, based on their heritage and more strongly defined by their conflict with the Jews, Nakbah, and a life defined as a stateless people.  It has created a distinct identity that is not that of other Arabs.  They have a right to it.  What right do others have to delegitimize them.

I will go back to what I said earlier and have said many times:  why is it necessary to deny or marginalize the identity of Palestinians in order to promote the rights of the Jewish people?  And the reverse is also true: why is it necessary to deny the rights of the Jewish people in order to support the rights of the Palestinian people, because that routinely happens as well.

It would be good if we could start from a mutual recognition of two peoples, with rights to the same area, and work out from there, recognizing that the expression of those rights (but not the recognition) is also tied to the ability to share peaceably the same territory.  And I recognize that is the framework you come from Shusha, but I do not see it in the others.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 29, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble.  The , like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...



The native language for most in Israel is not Hebrew, but Yiddish, which is Germanic and not from the Mideast.
The kippa and kova temple are not Jewish, but implementations of Old Testament rules that also include the Arab Turban.  There are no gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, native to the Mideast, and these are from the cultures of Poland, Russia, Germany, etc.
No country should ever have religious holidays mandated by government.
There is no country with all its people from a single religion.

There should be no Jewish state because there should never be any religious state.
Trying to make one is purely evil.

The word "jihadist" mean pious, and does not mean Muslim.

The reality is the Palestinian Arabs are the 12 million indigenous natives, going back over 8,000 years, while the Israelis Jew are 6 million mostly European immigrants.
The Palestinian Arabs are the Chaldeans, Amorites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Urites, Canaanites, etc., who historically owned this land for centuries.
It is criminal to take their homes by force, as Israel has done.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 29, 2019)

MJB12741 said:


> The indigenous Palestinians & their offspring that are Jews are indeed a real people. Long before the development of Islam & Muslims in the land who now claim to be Palestinians.



The majority of the people in the Land of Canaan have never been Jewish.
When the Hebrew tribes first invaded around 1000 BC, they were not even close to the majority, but less than 10% of the population.
When the Romans appointed Jews to administer Palestine for them, they picked the Jews because they were the smallest minority, and therefore the least threat.
In 1900, when a census was conducted, there were less then 5% Jews in Palestine, which includes what is now Israel and Palestine.
Most Israelis are recent immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants, and almost none have ever bought and paid for any land.
Instead they are given land that has been taken by force from Palestinians Arabs.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 29, 2019)

Bruce_T_Laney said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Natural Citizen said:
> ...



The Jews in Israel are not the victims but the perpetrators.
The Palestinians are not victims by choice or design, but due to the economic blockade by the Israelis.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Very simply, culture or religion has nothing at all to do with it.
The native indigenous Palestinians simply are those who were there before the massive immigration after 1920 or so.
That includes many ancient Arab cultures, including the Canaanites, Akkadians, Urites, Amorites, Phoenicians, Philistines, Chaldeans, Nabatians, etc.  It also includes some native Hebrew.

But none of the recent European immigrants or their descendants ever bought or paid for any of the land they possess, so they are illegal intruders who are guilty of war crimes and must be punished.

Nationality is not the question or problem.
Home and farm ownership is.
And all the Israelis Jews are knowingly in possession of stolen property, and are criminals.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...


And besides, Palestinians are citizens of Palestine. No other people can make that claim.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

L,.



Rigby5 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Woah! That is absolutely not true!


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


I hate to say this, but, citizenship is conferred by nations and there is no nation.  They are stateless, which is a tragedy.


----------



## harmonica (Nov 29, 2019)

the Pals are like the sub-Saharan blacks and the US ghetto blacks


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

Rigby5 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> ...



A lot of this doesn’t make sense.  In fact, it is bizarre.

Hebrew is an ancient language, that is archaeologically proven.  It is a language that has been preserved throughout Jewish history, though not as a living language until relatively modern times.  

Hebrew is spoken by all Israelis.  Yiddish is a language developed by one subsect of European Jews.  How do you define native language?  The language you were born into and grew up with?  Well for most Israeli’s it is Hebrew.

The Old Testement was created by the Jews.  It is THEIR story...therefore the kippa etc is Jewish. While I don’t agree with religion mixing with government, each country does have the right to do what it wishes with holidays and many recognize religious holy days.  As to no other country with all it’s people of one religion...I hate to disillusion you but yes...I believe there are (Saudi Arabia) and Israel, with a significant Muslim minority, along with Christians and other minorities, is not one of them.

This might be the time to do some research...just a suggestion.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


"Stateless" is a foreign political opinion enforced at the point of a gun.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 29, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Nonsense.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No.  It is a human rights tragedy.

It is a tragedy that the countries wherein they live in refugee camps refused to take them in and give them citizenship.  Because those in Syria had no papers, they couldn’t even flee ISIS, no country would give them shelter.  It is shameful.


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 29, 2019)

Rigby5 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> ...



Oh now I get it.  Those "Palestinian Arabs are the Chaldeans, Amorites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Urites, Canaanites, et." who have titles to the land they stole.  Right?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


That's because allowing them to assimilate would be a betrayal of the "cause" of Palestinians nationalism.  The myth that these are refugees is essential to the  case against Israel; the more these fake refugees suffer, the better it is for the "cause".


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


They are not fake refugees.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Of course they are fake.  No where else in the world would the grandchildren of an itinerant Egyptian farm worker who lived in what became Israel for a couple of years before fleeing from the war be called a Palestinian refugee.  If Israel were not a Jewish state, the notion would have been laughed out of the UN.


----------



## José (Nov 29, 2019)

It is a tragedy that *the countries* wherein they live in refugee 
camps *refused to take them in and give them citizenship*.​




If the US Message Board existed in 1985 I wonder if you would be demanding Zimbabwe, Botswana and Mozambique to give citizenship to millions of black citizens of Transkei, Ciskei and Kwazulu instead of demanding the south african leaders in Pretoria to dismantle the pathetic farce of the black "republics" and simply give south african citizenship to the "citizens" of the Bantustans.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

José said:


> It is a tragedy that *the countries* wherein they live in refugee
> camps *refused to take them in and give them citizenship*.​
> 
> 
> ...


Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > It is a tragedy that *the countries* wherein they live in refugee
> ...


In the case of the Palestinians, refugee camps is a propaganda term.  They live just as other poor Arabs in those countries live.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > José said:
> ...


Tell that to the Palestinian refugees in Syria who couldn’t flee with the Syrians.

Arab Countries Are Forcing Palestinian Exiles Back Into Syria


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

Rigby5 

I could go through your posts, point by point, but I'm just going to agree with Coyote here and suggest you are massively, egregiously under-educated.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Most had long standing ties in Palestine.  And even for those who were not, so what?  Does that alter the fact they were driven off their land and are stateless?


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

The Jewish people were stateless for 3000 years.  I feel this needs to be said.


----------



## José (Nov 29, 2019)

Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?




​Did black south africans want to be citizens of Transkei, Ciskei, Mozambique and Zimbabwe?

Or did they want to be equal citizens in their own undivided historical homeland?

Do Palestinians in refugee camps in Syria, Lebannon, Egypt want to become Syrians, Lebanese or do they want to at least have the right to be equal citizens of their own unified historical homeland?

Jordan gave jordanian citizenship to millions of arabs from Palestine.

Ask the new Jordanian "citizens" if they are willing to give up their historical right to their homeland.


----------



## José (Nov 29, 2019)

Hell ask Palestinians in refugee camps around Hebron if they are willing to give up their right to live in Acre in exchange for the part of their homeland Oslo promised them.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > José said:
> ...



They do NOT live as other poor Arabs.  They lack citizenship and with that, the fundamental rights, including the right to work, that comes with citizenship.  What rights they get depend what country their camp is in.  No citizenship...no papers.  That means when ISIS and civil war are tearing a country apart, you can’t flee.  What country will give you admittance with out papersor nationality?  That is what the Syrian Palestinian refugees discovered.  And hundreds starved to death because they were caught between a border and ISIS.

Maybe people ought to think a moment before it is all propaganda.  I suggest you join our friend Rigby in education,


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

José said:


> Were they residing those countries in refugee camps?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why not ask them if they want citizenship and full rights now, in the country in which they reside?


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> How distinct is distinct enough?  And..what is the cut off...when has enough time passed for a group to be considered legitimate.  The Palestinians have been in the process of creating a distinct identity for some time now, based on their heritage and more strongly defined by their conflict with the Jews, Nakbah, and a life defined as a stateless people.  It has created a distinct identity that is not that of other Arabs.  They have a right to it.  What right do others have to delegitimize them.
> 
> I will go back to what I said earlier and have said many times:  why is it necessary to deny or marginalize the identity of Palestinians in order to promote the rights of the Jewish people?  And the reverse is also true: why is it necessary to deny the rights of the Jewish people in order to support the rights of the Palestinian people, because that routinely happens as well.
> 
> It would be good if we could start from a mutual recognition of two peoples, with rights to the same area, and work out from there, recognizing that the expression of those rights (but not the recognition) is also tied to the ability to share peaceably the same territory.  And I recognize that is the framework you come from Shusha, but I do not see it in the others.



Well, for all that you and I argue about this, we both actually agree on everything that is important -- two peoples, two separate self-determinations, both legitimate.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > How distinct is distinct enough?  And..what is the cut off...when has enough time passed for a group to be considered legitimate.  The Palestinians have been in the process of creating a distinct identity for some time now, based on their heritage and more strongly defined by their conflict with the Jews, Nakbah, and a life defined as a stateless people.  It has created a distinct identity that is not that of other Arabs.  They have a right to it.  What right do others have to delegitimize them.
> ...


And peaceable coexistence


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Does that alter the fact they were driven off their land and are stateless?


I can't find any legal proceedings for that to happen.


----------



## José (Nov 29, 2019)

Why not ask them if they want citizenship and 
full rights now, in the country in which they reside?




​Jordan did just that 70 years ago, but strangely enough, the piece of paper didn't stop the new jordanian "citizens" from flocking to Allenby Bridge by the thousands (from 1967 to 2019) to demand their right to live in their homeland.






COYOTE MEET ALLENBY BRIDGE, THE *DE FACTO* BORDER BETWEEN ISRAEL AND JORDAN​
THE SITE OF HUNDREDS OF MASS PROTESTS BY JORDANIAN
"CITIZENS" DEMANDING THEIR RIGHT TO LIVE IN THEIR HOMELAND​





​


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

José said:


> COYOTE MEET ALLENBY BRIDGE, THE *DE FACTO* BORDER BETWEEN ISRAEL AND JORDAN



Also, the _de jure_ border between Israel and Jordan.


----------



## José (Nov 29, 2019)

Also, the _de jure_ border between Israel and Jordan.​



​So true...

And this tells us a lot about the odds of the shambolic, illegitimate, (eternally) future state of Palestine ever seeing the light of day.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


There appear to be no limits to the sufferings other Arabs are willing to inflict on the so called Palestinians in their countries, but that in no way makes the grandchildren of those who left Israel in 1948 refugees.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Very few of the so called Palestinians who are alive today have long standing ties to what is now Israel and very few were driven off.  Their suffering today is very much caused by people like you who cherish it as a weapon to use against Israel.  They are not exactly stateless.  They are all citizens of the Palestinian Authority which operates in most important ways as a state.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 29, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


My point, of course, was that living in a so called refugee camp is no different from living in other poor areas of these countries.  The fact that other Arabs treat them with such cruelty and contempt does not make them refugees from Israel.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


What exactly are they?


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Did you totally miss what I said?  Unlike Arab citizens of those countries, Palestinians have *no rights what so ever...not even a right to legally work in some of those countries. * So no.  They do not live like Citizens who happen to live in poor areas of the country.

Since they fled the area that is Israel, yes, it DOES make them refugees from Israel.  That is the only area they can be refugees from.  By definition.

The Rohinga fled Myanmar.  They are refugees from Myanmar.

Kakuma, in Kenya, houses people who fled conflict in Somalia and South Sudan.  They are refugees from Somalia and South Sudan respectively.

Zaatari in Jordan houses people who fled Syria.  Those are refugees from Syria.

And so on.

It isn’t about laying blame, it is about facts.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Actually...according to historical records, most were driven off either from fear of conflict (as is often the case)or deliberate actions by the Jewish militias during the war.

Their suffering today is caused by a number of different factors none of which include me.  

The refugees in camps outside of Gaza and the West Bank are not citizens of the PA.  Most of those in Jordan were given Jordanian citizenship.  Those in Lebanon were finally given the same right to work as other foreigners in 2010 after appalling conditions were revealed.  A number have been given citizenship.  In Syria, no citizenship or right to work.  In Saudi Arabia the same. In Iraq the same I think.  So yes, many are exactly stateless.

It doesn’t matter how many generations removed from Israel they are, until they are permanently settled somewhere they are still refugees.  Which leads to an interesting question.  There are many multigenerational refugee camps from long standing conflicts...why is it that ONLY the Palestinians get labeled “not refugees”?

None of that means there is any right of return.  I don’t believe in any collective right of return.  The Arab states need to do the right thing and fully absorb the refugees outside the West Bank and Gaza.  The Arab league set the rule prohibiting Arab states from granting citizenship to the Palestinians, leading to atrocious conditions.  They need to do the right thing.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 29, 2019)

Conventions against statelessness require that if a person would otherwise be stateless, they acquire the nationality of the place of their birth. The descendants of refugees are not stateless.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 29, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Conventions against statelessness require that if a person would otherwise be stateless, they acquire the nationality of the place of their birth. The descendants of refugees are not stateless.


That would depend on the laws of the state however would it it not?  If the state does not recognize jus soli, those born there of non citizen parents would not be citizens.  Many people are stateless as a result.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 30, 2019)

Mayukwayuka refugee camp in Zambia was established in 1966 to hold refugees fleeing from Angola’s civil war.  Are they fake refugees?


----------



## Shusha (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Conventions against statelessness require that if a person would otherwise be stateless, they acquire the nationality of the place of their birth. The descendants of refugees are not stateless.
> ...



Rather it would be if the state is a party to the relevant conventions.


----------



## MisterBeale (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > It is a tragedy that *the countries* wherein they live in refugee
> ...



Excellent point.

I am so tired of this global problem.

The Israeli's HOLD THE POWER over there, thus, it is up to them to shit or get off the pot.

Either give the Arabs in their nation an equal say in how that land is ruled, or separate off an equal portion of land and resources and let them have their own nation.

The simple fact is, they are fucking genocidal fascists that don't like either option, and would prefer a slow motion genocide where the entire Arab population inside Israel either flees or dies.  They don't want their precious cultural dynamic to change.

. . . and that, as they say in the U.S. here, is just plane bigoted and evil.

The U.S. treats it's natives the same way in every respect.


If it weren't for the fact that the Arab birth rate is far outstripping the Israeli birthrate, the problem would just go away. . . which is what I am sure the ruling classes were hoping.

This is how we dealt with our native American problem, assimilation and a decline in birth rate.  The folks that originally started Planned Parenthood were part of the eugenics movement, they went in there and involuntarily sterilized tens of thousands of them before anyone found out.

It's no longer much of a problem. . . . .


----------



## Moi621 (Nov 30, 2019)

Palestinian =  Jordanian.
Not  Syrian  nor  Egyptian.
Jordanian.  

Blame  the  Romans  for  creating  a  region  called
Palestine.


Moi


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


They are citizens of the Palestinian Authority living in other countries.  Calling them refugees is just a way of continuing the conflict by raising impossible hopes.  Not every problem has a good solution.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


No, the people who fled are refugees, but their descendants are not.


----------



## admonit (Nov 30, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


So, Israel should wait until "Palestinians" become so kind to stop murdering Jews, and after that reward them with their state, hoping that they don't lie as they did when signing the Oslo agreement?


----------



## admonit (Nov 30, 2019)

Shusha said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > OK
> ...


Pure demagoguery. "Palestinians" are not "a people" and they don't respect basic human rights.


> The Arab Palestinians do have a unique identity.  That identity is Arab


You again repeat this nonsense. Again sarcasm? 


> and was developed in the past 100 years as a national identity, largely as an opposing force to Jewish reclamation of their homeland.


They developed nothing but hate of Jews, which also is not unique in the Arab world.
I also suppose that you don't know what "national identity" means:
"a sense of a nation as a cohesive whole, *as represented by distinctive traditions, culture, and language*."


> What the Arab Palestinians do NOT have is a heritage or culture which stretches backwards in time beyond the Islamic invasion and colonization.


Irrelevant. Either they have unique identity or not. They have not.


> So, are you the one to prove Coyote right by saying that Arab Palestinians shouldn't have a nation because ... Arabs?  If so, then you are no better than Tinmore who insists that Jews can't have a nation because ... Jews.


I'm not here to prove or disprove nonsense posted by anti-Israel trolls.
I wonder how readily you equate me with an insane troll and label me a racist. The only problem is that, as many Israelis, I have a good immunity against such pathetic accusations.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Nowhere else in the world are the descendants of refugees also considered refugees.  All wars produce refugees, but nowhere else in the world is the status of refugee inherited by future generations.  The fact that other Arabs treat the so called Palestinians with cruelty and contempt does nothing to extend the status of refugee to their offspring.  

Under Oslo, all so called Palestinians other than those who are Israeli citizens are considered citizens of the PA regardless where they are presently living.  Calling the neighborhoods where they live refugee camps evokes images of temporary shelters, but these neighborhoods are not at all temporary and look exactly like other poor neighborhoods in the countries they live in: the term, refugee camp, is a propaganda term intended to blame Israel for the cruel treatment the Syrian and other Arab governments inflict on the Palestinians.  Calling the descendants of the refugees refugees only encourage the Arab nations to continue to mistreat them and use them as pawns in their hostility toward Israel, when in fact, all the sufferings the Palestinians have gone through are the direct result of actions of the Arab nations to in their quest to defeat Israel.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

admonit said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...


Clearly Foreveryoung's solution is impractical.  You don't make peace with a people but with their political leadership and since there is no political entity among the so called Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there can be no negotiated peace agreement and no Palestinian state.


----------



## Mindful (Nov 30, 2019)

*Spencer his formidable erudition and smooth keyboard to the topic of the Palestinian assault on Israel”.*

“Spencer brings his formidable erudition and smooth keyboard to the knotty topic of the Palestinian assault on Israel. Deftly separating fact from fiction, he persuasively establishes the justice of Zionism and the barbarism of its opponents. Everyone should read this one-volume synthesis to under- stand the most complex conflict of our time.” — DANIEL PIPES, Middle East Forum.

“Spencer brings his formidable erudition and smooth keyboard to the topic of the Palestinian assault on Israel”


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Israel has always ducked the responsibility of the refugees it has created.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The Islamics starting a war in 1948 created the so-called “refugees”.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


How can you start a war when you are at home?


----------



## Hollie (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



How can you be at home when you cross a frontier to start a war?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Oh, I thought you were talking about the Zionist attack on Palestinians while they were at home.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Israel created no refugees, the Arab nations did, and then the UN relieved the Arab nations of all responsibility for all the refugees the Arabs created by insanely asserting that all future descendants of the refugees will be considered refugees until the end of time.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


How did the Arab countries get the job of cleaning up after Israel?


----------



## rylah (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Irrelevant, The reason for people leaving conflict is never mentioned in the right to return. It doesn't matter.


----------



## Shusha (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



They have the job of looking after their own citizens. You know, that’s what proper nations do.


----------



## rylah (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The "RoR" is a political concept rather than a legal one.
None of the Arab states and not even the Palestinian one are representing it, so why should Israel, when most of its citizens coming from the same Arab countries that called for the Arabs to leave, fall for the scheme?

Arab governments are responsible for most of the financial and property losses in this whole conflict, both for the 700,000 Arab and 1 million Jewish refugees from all over the middle east.

Compensation for Arabs could be covered for by the compensation to Israeli Jews, and the Arab govts would still own tens of billions to both sides.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You’re not paying attention. I was referring to the Arabs-Moslems crossing the frontier to attack Israel. If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that’s what I wrote earlier.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Had the Arab nations not attempted to invade Israel, there would have been no 1948 refugees.  You are calling for Israel to clean up the mess the Arab nations made.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Indeed, they never did. 

Indeed it was the international community that was burdened with supplying a UN funded welfare program to clean up the mess left by Arabs-Moslems after their failed attempts to drive the Israelis into the sea.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The whole issue of refugees is irrelevant since only a few are still alive and in a generation, there will be no more refugees.


----------



## rylah (Nov 30, 2019)

Even their own leaders don't buy into the scheme...
Why should anyone else?

It's just the same way Hitler used  Germans in Czechoslovakia,
the poor poor Germans, just give me that part of your country to make my Germans "free",
there will be "Peace..."

No free Germans or anyone ....just Arabs thinking they're smarter to run same scheme .


----------



## Natural Citizen (Nov 30, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Do you mean the Palestinians or the Jews?



There's no source in the op. Again. You made no attempt whatsoever to support your claim. Yet you want me to clarify mine? Please. Any other topical content without sources would have been closed by now. In fact, I just saw one closed for just that very reason.

I think we all know which group of activists function and benefit from the luxury of designated victim status.


----------



## Coyote (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Except...it isn’t that black and white.

What about the responsibility of the Arab states who are also responsible for the conditions that created the refugees? 

What about the edict from the Arab League forbidding Arab States from granting citizenship to Palestinians that helped perpetrate a situation that in some cases created humanitarian disasters?  It isn’t one sided.  Can you the shared responibility here?


----------



## Coyote (Nov 30, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Link showing they have citizenship.

Why are Palestinians uniquely labeled “fake refugees” but refugees in other camps are not?  It looks suspiciously like a double standard.


----------



## rylah (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


They did not attack Israel.


----------



## rylah (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








That's exactly your Archie's ankle
Arabs never ceased to attack Israel, and now they whine for the consequences
of their own doing.


----------



## Hollie (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Oh course they did. This was addressed for you earlier.

Look it up.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


That isn't true. The Zionists planned to expel the Palestinians. About 300,000 Palestinians were expelled before any Arab army entered Palestine.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2019)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


----------



## Hollie (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You managed to look it up. Now you feel foolish.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The Arabs who left Israel during the War of Independence are refugees, but their descendants are not.  This is the way it is everywhere else in the world.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The 1948 Arab invasion of Israel failed because the Israeli military met the invading armies at the borders and drove them back.  There was intense fighting in the borders and many so called Palestinians in those areas attacked Israelis in concert with the Arab armies, and when the Arab armies were forced to withdraw, these Palestinians withdrew with them and became refugees.  Also some Arab villages in the South that lay in the path of an invading Egyptian army were evacuated and the Arabs fled to the Gaza Strip.  In addition, some Arab villages that held strategic positions near the fighting were evacuated and those who evacuated peacefully were moved to other locations within Israel and those who violently resisted evacuation were forced to retreat out of Israel.  All of this occurred in areas near the fighting and in areas away from the fighting, Arabs were actually urged to remain, as in Haifa.  Abbas came from Jaffa where the Arab residents attacked the Jews and drove them out of the city and then panicked and left Israel out of fear fo retribution.  There was never a plan to expel any of the Arabs, and if the Arab nations had not attacked Israel, there would have been no refugees.


----------



## toastman (Nov 30, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



As usual, your argument was dismantled and you have been backed into a corner, so all you got are emoji's. Typical Tinmore,


----------



## toastman (Nov 30, 2019)

Arguing with Tinmore is like arguing with a 5 year old. It's so goddamn easy to make him look foolish


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 30, 2019)

Shusha said:


> The Jewish people were stateless for 3000 years.  I feel this needs to be said.



Actually, since the year 70 of the Common Era, which is somewhat less than 2000.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Nov 30, 2019)

Rigby5 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> ...



I just returned from Israel.  Everyone there speaks Hebrew.  Many Eastern Jews don't speak Yiddish at all.  I don't even speak Yiddish, and I'm Ashkenazi.  As for the kippa, it's not even mentioned in the Torah.  It's a Jewish custom.  I agree that gefilte fish and kugel aren't Mideastern food.  That's why it's unique to Israel.  Tinmore once put up a picture of a Palestinian breakfast, but was promptly told by everyone that this breakfast is eaten throughout the Mideast.  As for religious holidays, Christmas is a legal holiday in the USA.  Easter Monday and Pentecost are legal holidays in many European nations.  How can the Palestinians be descendants of the Canaanites when they were destroyed by the Hebrews?  Many of the other nations you mentioned, like the Chaldeans or the ppl of Ur, lived in other countries, like Babylon.

In short, like Coyote said, your entire post is bizarre.  And Tinmore marked it as a winner, lol!


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Nov 30, 2019)

What's that holiday the Palestinians celebrate each year to honor Ba'al?

Oops, I'm forgetting.

There isn't one.


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 30, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





toomuchtime_ said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The Arab nations are no longer attacking Israel.  They learned how costly that is in their death count.  But as for Palestinians, well, that's another story.


----------



## admonit (Dec 1, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Not all of them. Those who settled in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were rather "internally displaced persons".


----------



## Coyote (Dec 1, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


 
Then what are they?

Refugees | United Nations

*Descendants of refugees retain refugee status*
_Under international law and the principle of family unity, *the children of refugees and their descendants are also considered refugees until a durable solution is found. * Both UNRWA and UNHCR recognize descendants as refugees on this basis, a practice that has been widely accepted by the international community, including both donors and refugee hosting countries. _


So why is it you *don’t* label the refugees of other camps and nationalities “fake”?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 1, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Nowhere else in  the world are the descendants of refugees considered refugees.  This is the  only situation in the world in which the UN has called the descendants of refugees refugees.  This is one of the ways in which the UN has made itself irrelevant to deal with issues in the ME.


----------



## admonit (Dec 1, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


They are descendants of refugees.


> Under international law and the principle of family unity, *the children of refugees and their descendants are also considered refugees until a durable solution is found. *


According to which exactly law?
The principle of family unity has nothing to do with refugee status. Either a person is a refugee or not. It's simple.


> Both UNRWA and UNHCR recognize descendants as refugees


I want to see an official UNHCR document, which confirms that descendants of refugees automatically get refugee status.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 1, 2019)

admonit said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


It only makes sense that they would be refugees. If the Parents are Palestinians with the right to live in Palestine, then the children would also be Palestinians with the right to live in Palestine. Where else would they have the right to live?


----------



## Hollie (Dec 1, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Generational refugees is a joke.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 1, 2019)

admonit said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


It applies only to the descendants of 1948 refugees from Israel and not to any other refugee situation.  It is the insanity on which UNRWA is based.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 1, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


lol  You appear to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to draw from.  There is no other refugee situation in the world in which the UN has adopted this insanity.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 1, 2019)

Coyote said:


> [
> Then what are they?
> 
> Refugees | United Nations
> ...



The key is in the "durable solution" part.  

UNRWA changed the definition of "refugee" specifically for Palestinian peoples.  It creates an endless generational definition with no durable solution.  There is no way for descendants of those who were uprooted in 1948 to stop being refugees.  And their children and their children.  Because the definition doesn't permit it.  

If we were to adopt a more reasonable definition of "refugee" for the Palestinians, one that was aligned with all other refugee populations -- and we should -- we would see that there are no Palestinian refugees.  Rather than the highest refugee population in the world, Palestinians refugee population would be non-existent.

The durable solutions are:  repatriation, resettlement and integration in a host country.

All Palestinians who have the ability to avail themselves of another nationality have been resettled and are no longer refugees.  
All Palestinians who remain within the international borders of Palestine are internally displaced persons and not refugees.  
If we were to stop here, the number of remaining Palestinian refugees would be:

430,000 in Lebanon
120,000 in Jordan without Jordanian citizenship
520,000 in Syria without Syrian citizenship

I would argue that those populations have already been locally integrated in the host country and should be given citizenship by the host country, thus resolving their status as refugees. 

This leaves only 430,000 Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon.

HOWEVER, I would not stop here.

If Palestine wants to be seen and treated as a State, then it should be seen and treated as a State.  It has a government and that government should be made responsible for its own citizens. Therefore, all people who are eligible for Palestinian citizenship, ARE Palestinian citizens and therefore, not refugees.  There is no reason for them not to be able to be repatriated.


----------



## rylah (Dec 1, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Because no other refugees get the same privileges.

No refugees have special rules, to allow citizens remain their refugee status
No refugees run and employ their own organizations in the UN
No refugees use aid to prolong the status and incite conflict
No refugees both make it into a multi generational business, or receive anywhere the same budget for their political group:






No refugees run such schemes.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 1, 2019)

My parents were technically "refugees" after WW2.  My dad was even in a DP camp in Germany, where he and his first wife had my half-brother.  But I never thought of them as refugees, because my dad and mom rebuilt their lives in America long before I was born.


----------



## rylah (Dec 1, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> My parents were technically "refugees" after WW2.  My dad was even in a DP camp in Germany, where he and his first wife had my half-brother.  But I never thought of them as refugees, because my dad and mom rebuilt their lives in America long before I was born.



My grandpa used to tell how they with several other families moved to a cave on the hills, while his father went to fight for Tiberias, that  the Arab Aboulafia's waited for him down in the town, at the entrance to his home - to stand with us.

Understand one thing - it wan't a big place, everyone already knew about the Iraqi 'relatives' arriving in town, Abulafias could chose a different side.

The house has been entirely destroyed, while their shops stood, and when Tiberias was liberated, that was the only place to live. He didn't go demanding anyone builds him a house, and gives him a salary for what befell, but rather went to Tel-Aviv to write and teach and even hosted immigrants from ma'abarot, who were themselves real refugees.

The refugees in ma'abarot were expelled from the same countries the Arabs came from.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Yes, they are.  I just showed you a link.  It isn't just Palestininians.

So why are you applying a different standard to Palestinians?


----------



## ph3iron (Dec 2, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...


You do know the Palestinians were the only Arab state to be on our side in WWII?
And they had been there for 4000 years until Rothschild / the uk bankers kicked them off and formed Israel?


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Ok.  I did some more reading on UNHCR and UNRWA.

If I am understanding it correctly, UNRWA allows a refugee *who has attained citizenship *elsewhere to continue *to be counted as a refugee* along with his/her children, who also have citizenship through birth.  If that is correct, I agree, that is messed up and perpetrates a refugee mess of people who are not really refugees.  *They all ought to fall under UNHCR.*


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> But it *does not apply to ONLY the Palestinian people*.


No.  It does apply ONLY to the Palestinian people.  They have a SPECIAL definition of "refugee" just for them.  Only them.  No other people.  And then they have an entire organization set up just for them.  So that they don't fall under the normal UNHCR. 



> Presumably it was changed because no durable situation was negotiated


Human rights are not negotiated.  Durable solutions to human rights crises exist outside of political solutions.



> and this is actually a situation becoming more and more common as refugee camps are becoming multi-generational.


This is true.  Mostly this is because nations are, more and more, rejecting the idea of resettlement. 



> Right or wrong - however you feel about it - the definition is applied to all but only the Palestinians are singled out for being "fake".


Well, yes, because you already agreed with me (see below) that 9/10's of the "refugees" of Palestine, aren't, in fact refugees at all.  The durable solution has been applied and yet(!) they are still "refugees".  Why?  Because the special definition of a "Palestinian refugee"  creates an unending condition of "refugee" status.  They and their descendants will always be refugees.



> > *I would argue that those populations have already been locally integrated in the host country and should be given citizenship by the host country*, thus resolving their status as refugees.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree.






> They are not Palestinian citizens until they are granted citizenship so no, you can not call them Palestinian citizens


Well, legally, of course, its more complicated than that.  Mostly because Arab Palestine and the other Arab states are TRYING to keep these people as refugees in horrible conditions as part of a campaign to destroy Israel and thus create laws intentionally to prevent them from becoming citizens of their states.  Which, imo, is an egregious breach of human rights by the Arab States. 

Now you can argue that Lebanon has no legal obligation to grant citizenship to her Palestinian refugees, but PALESTINE certainly does.


*also, side note, new census data shows that the number of "refugees" in Lebanon may be vastly over-estimated.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Imagine if the world learned that there are only 130,000 real Palestinian refugees in the world, huh?


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > But it *does not apply to ONLY the Palestinian people*.
> ...



Yes I realized that after reading some more which I should have done sooner).  BUT it isn’t true that they have an entire organization set up for them.  It was set up for Jewish refugees as well, but Israel patriated the Jewish refugees and took them off the table.



> > Presumably it was changed because no durable situation was negotiated
> 
> 
> Human rights are not negotiated.  Durable solutions to human rights crises exist outside of political solutions.
> ...



Sad but true, though in some cases host nations are ill equipped to take in large number of poor refugees (for example Bangladesh and the Rohinga) and wealthy nations, like mine or some of the Arab states refuse to.



> > Right or wrong - however you feel about it - the definition is applied to all but only the Palestinians are singled out for being "fake".
> 
> 
> Well, yes, because you already agreed with me (see below) that 9/10's of the "refugees" of Palestine, aren't, in fact refugees at all.  The durable solution has been applied and yet(!) they are still "refugees".  Why?  Because the special definition of a "Palestinian refugee"  creates an unending condition of "refugee" status.  You and your descendants will always be refugees.
> ...



Agree.



> Now you can argue that Lebanon has no legal obligation to grant citizenship to her Palestinian refugees, but PALESTINE certainly does.
> 
> 
> *also, side note, new census data shows that the number of "refugees" in Lebanon may be vastly over-estimated.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Imagine if the world learned that there are only 130,000 real Palestinian refugees in the world, huh?


If it is truely that low.  I suspect that just as there is an agenda in magnifying numbers there is likewise one in minimizing.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Sad but true, though in some cases host nations are ill equipped to take in large number of poor refugees (for example Bangladesh and the Rohinga) and wealthy nations, like mine or some of the Arab states refuse to.



There are a lot of reasons and its complicated.

Some countries (like Kenya) would actually economically benefit from integrating multi-generational refugees.  Some may not.  Many reject the incorporating refugees for fear of introducing "other" or foreign ideas into their countries, which may seem morally unsavoury, but can also be a legitimate concern.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Imagine if the world learned that there are only 130,000 real Palestinian refugees in the world, huh?
> ...




174422

According to 2017 census carried out by Lebanon government.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I would still count those who have not been given citizenship in the countries they reside in as refugees including descendants considered refugees under UNHCR rules.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Stop lying.  The UNHCR definition of a refugee does not apply to the 1948 Arab refugees who left Israel. 

"The Convention also does not apply to those refugees who benefit from the protection or assistance of a United Nations agency other than UNHCR, such as refugees from Palestine who fall under the auspices of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA). Nor does the Convention apply to those refugees who have a status equivalent to nationals in their country of asylum."

Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees

All the rules and definitions of the Palestinian refugees come from UNRWA and UNHCR has nothing to do with it.  Nowhere else in the world does the UN consider a descendant of a refugee also a refugee.  While technically UNRWA means United Nations Relief Works Agency, everyone knows the real meaning is, Fuck Israel.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> I would still count those who have not been given citizenship in the countries they reside in as refugees including descendants considered refugees under UNHCR rules.



I disagree.  In order to avoid statelessness, people should be granted the citizenship of the state they were born in.  There is no reason people who are fully integrated into a society should be denied citizenship in order to keep them as refugees.  This just encourages the "not our problem, let's just keep them in camps for three, or four or five generations" until someone else decides what to do with them.

And they SHOULD all have Palestinian citizenship.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Nowhere else in the world does the UN consider a descendant of a refugee also a refugee.



This isn't really strictly true.  While I agree that there are "special rules" for the Palestinians, there are other places in the world where descendants carry the status of refugees.

Dadaab camp in Kenya has 330,000 Somali refugees, three generations.  Admittedly, this is an unusual case, in that the refugees of Dadaab have not been permitted to leave.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I would still count those who have not been given citizenship in the countries they reside in as refugees including descendants considered refugees under UNHCR rules.
> ...


Why work so hard to avoid statelessness?  Why not accommodate it, for example, the UN could define someone who is stateless as a citizen of the world and keep his records, issue an ID and travel documents.  After all, half the "citizens" of the world need protection from their own governments, so perhaps statelessness would be a  prefered status for them.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Nowhere else in the world does the UN consider a descendant of a refugee also a refugee.
> ...


"A refugee, according to the Convention, is someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their *country of origin *owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion."

Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees

Since the descendants of those who fled Somalia cannot claim Somalia as their country of origin, they cannot qualify as refugees under the rules of UNHCR.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...




By that definition, NO ONE who is uprooted due to conflict is, in fact, a refugee.  That definition has been overtaken by ICL.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


No, by that definition the person who left Somalia is a refugee, but if he had a child in Kenya, that child is not a refugee. 




What is ICL?


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> No, by that definition the person who left Somalia is a refugee, but if he had a child in Kenya, that child is not a refugee.



The definition you quoted specifically excludes people uprooted simply because of war, therefore people fleeing war, including civil war, are not refugees by the 1951 Convention/1967 Protocol definition.  Nor are Palestinian refugees.  Given that Somalis can return and have been returning, technically, by the 1951 Convention/1967 Protocol definition, they are not refugees.

Under the principle of family unity, children and other family members of a refugee are normally considered refugees themselves.  Family members may also qualify as refugees independently, depending on their own national status, which may different from their family members.

One of the ways these laws are changing is in the re-defining of "refugee" as opposed to "asylum-seeker".

Its a hugely complicated section of international humanitarian law (IHL) and international customary law (ICL), and it doesn't translate well to sound bytes.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here.  The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.

If we put THAT measure on it, it should be pretty easy to recognize who should be helped and to some extent, how.

Palestinians incorporated into their own national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians incorporated into another national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians kept in camps in Lebanon should be able to avail themselves of their own nationality (Palestinian).
Somalis kept in camps in Kenya should be able avail themselves of their own nationality (Somalia).

In the case of Somalia, the argument against repatriation is that the country is still very unstable and repatriation of so many may be disruptive.  

On the other hand, sometimes host countries should incorporate refugees.  It would be economically beneficial for Kenya to accept the refugees.  The concern for Kenya is Somali jihadis.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 2, 2019)

ph3iron said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> ...



1)  There is a famous picture of a Palestinian Mufti meeting with Hitler.

2)  The Palestinians are not descended from the Canaanites of 4000 years ago.  The Canaanites were both destroyed and assimilated into the Hebrew nation.  The Palestinians are Arabs.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > No, by that definition the person who left Somalia is a refugee, but if he had a child in Kenya, that child is not a refugee.
> ...


I only quoted the part that would apply to the descendants of refugees, but if you looked at the link I provided, it clearly states that people fleeing war are refugees.  In fact the 1951 convention addressed the issue of people who were displaced by WWII.  

The 1951 convention is the official position of the UN on all refugees other than the Palestinians, who are covered under UNRWA, and whatever other documents or principles you think or might want to apply have no basis in international law.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I would still count those who have not been given citizenship in the countries they reside in as refugees including descendants considered refugees under UNHCR rules.
> ...



They should be granted citizenship where born, I agree, and Palestinian citizenship, but the reality is it hasn’t happened and until it does they are refugees.  Even Palestinian citizenship doesn’t mean much if there is no state to take them in.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here.  The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.
> 
> If we put THAT measure on it, it should be pretty easy to recognize who should be helped and to some extent, how.
> 
> ...



But how would you handle a case like the Rohinga, who’s persecution and attempted genocide is well documented.  It is unlikely they could ever return in safety...and Bangladesh is in no condition to absorb them.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> ph3iron said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


The Palestinians are also descendants of Hebrews.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here.  The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.
> ...




Ha!  I'm not sure I have that kind of "how would you save the world, Shusha?" answer.  Its a huge, complicated problem.  

I mean, how DO we stop people treating other people as less than human?

Seems to me the order of operations should be:  physical safety; security of physical safety; water, food, sanitation, health care; education; employment; resettlement, absorption or repatriation, depending on the political circumstances.  

The bigger question, honestly, is how to facilitate the still-growing trend of breaking down old empires into smaller and smaller ethnic groups, tribes and clans.  How can that be done peacefully?


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> The Palestinians are also descendants of Hebrews.



Some may be.  But given that they have rejected the Hebrew culture in favor of their Arab culture, this has no meaning and doesn't need to be applied in modern times.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Not anymore. Hamas has murdered just about all the Christians in Bethlehem.

These are one you support, Hamas and Hezbollah.

{In 1950, Bethlehem and the surrounding villages were 86 percent Christian. But by 2016, the Christian population dipped to just 12 percent, according Bethlehem mayor Vera Baboun. Across the West Bank, Christians now account for less than 2 percent of the population, though in the 1970s, Christians were 5 percent of the population. In Bethlehem, the traditional birthplace of Jesus, today there are just 11,000 Christians.}

Bethlehem's declining Christian population casts shadow over Christmas

You've murdered them all, just as you said you would.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Very complicated and not going that great in many parts of the world.  And...to add to the bigger question - the effects of climate change around the world creating increasing instability, economic insecurity, famine.

I agree with the order of operations and I also think we need a fundamental change in how we view these things.  It's not a "state" problem or a regional problem - it's a world wide problem.  When we have more displaced people now then we ever have had since WW2 - then that is not a problem up to Jordan, Lebanon or Europe to resolve - it's all of our problem.  But instead of coming together we are seeing a rise in nationalism (which is really just another form of tribalism) putting up walls.  I think the Palestinians in refugee camps deserve a future - citizenship, and the ability to fully work and be integrated into the host country and pressure should be applied to make that happen.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Who is "you"?  

And, actually, if you bothered to read a bit beyond talking points you would realize that the reason the Christian population has dropped is not because they've been murdered.  Part of it is the economic devastation in Gaza, leaving them unable to find work and support their families.  Added to that is the general discrimination under Hamas.   

Try telling the truth occasionally.  Even your article doesn't say what you are claiming:

_Walid al-Shatleh, a gym teacher at Talitha Kumi school in Beit Jala, a traditionally Christian village next to Bethlehem, is one of the Palestinian Christians considering emigration. He and his extended family are debating between moving to Canada or Australia.

Al-Shatleh said the Israeli army seized 24 dunams (six acres) of his farmland to construct the separation wall between Israel and the Palestinian territories, cutting down his family's old growth olive trees and ruining his livelihood.

"We feel like there is no future for us in this land," he said. "I can travel to Europe and move freely between countries, even leaving my passport [at the hotel]. But here, I have to show my ID everywhere I go, I have to cross a checkpoint every day," he said. "I can't visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, I used to go once a month but now I need special permission."

"We live like we're an animal in a cage in a zoo, there's only one exit and entrance which is a piece of paper from Israeli authorities saying when I can go to Jerusalem and at what time," al-Shatleh added._​


----------



## Coyote (Dec 2, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinians are also descendants of Hebrews.
> ...



But it is wrong to deny they aren't descended and insist they are recent arrivals - that's the thing.  While some are immigrants from other Arab states, many are not.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




And the refugees themselves need a say, I think.  Would they rather go to Palestine or stay where they are in Lebanon/Jordan or be resettled somewhere else?

I find it very troubling that the new trend seems to be -- lock them behind a wall.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 2, 2019)

Yes, they are real. Real Arabs. Indigent to Arabia.

Palestine is not even an Arab name.  There has never been a Palestinian country.

It's a fantasy based 'virtual state' in which virtual... by definition means 'unstable.'


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I don't think anyone is denying the plain, factual, reality that some of the may be descended from those of previous cultures, even when they spew sound bytes like, "go back to Arabia".  (And I don't know how we'd sort out who was who anyway. And the whole thing still reeks to me of "blood purity" which is gross.)

The point for me is that NO ONE should be using Arab's "blood purity" or lack of it to either claim a heritage which is not actually theirs nor to deny their continued rights to live in the land and have self-determination there. 

Arab Palestinians need to recognize that they left behind their Hebrew heritage and therefore it is no longer relevant to them (and they can't use it, let alone weaponize it).  And Team Israel needs to recognize that collective Arab rights to that place are valid, simply because of their long tenure there, regardless of how it occurred.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 2, 2019)

Ropey said:


> Indigent to Arabia....There has never been a Palestinian country.



Both these statements are true.  Neither statement erases the Arab Palestinians self-identification or right to self-determination in that territory.  New States come into being all the time.  While there are obstacles to Palestine fully becoming a state, the fact that there hasn't been one in the past is not an obstacle to it becoming one in the future.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 2, 2019)

It's more of an obstacle than if it did have a history.  Let's just say that. The Kurds can't get 'er done and they're trying in a neighborhood of all Islam.


----------



## admonit (Dec 3, 2019)

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Nowhere else in the world does the UN consider a descendant of a refugee also a refugee.
> ...


"UNHCR set up the first camps in the Dadaab complex in 1991 to host up to 90,000 people."
Dadaab - World's biggest refugee camp 20 years old

28 years ago.

"The first camp was established in 1991, when refugees fleeing the civil war in Somalia started to cross the border into Kenya. A second large influx occurred in 2011, when some 130,000 refugees arrived"
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

8 years ago.

What three generation?

"The Dadaab refugee complex has a population of *217,108* registered refugees and *asylum seekers* as at the end of October 2019."
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

It's unlikely that refugees' children, born in Kenya, are registered as refugees.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 3, 2019)

admonit said:


> It's unlikely that refugees' children, born in Kenya, are registered as refugees.



Actually, family unity, they are registered as refugees.

They are children born in a camp where neither they or their parents are permitted to leave.  If they are not refugees, what are they?  Are they Somalis?  Are they Kenyans?  Are they something else?  Are they nothing?

Like seriously, everyone who wants to play black and white here needs to choose what their black and white is.  Who is responsible for refugees?  The country of origin?  The host country?  A resettlement country (generally the world -- spread them around to nations which can afford to absorb them?)


----------



## Shusha (Dec 3, 2019)

admonit said:


> What three generation?




Do you need me to do math for you?

23 year old woman enters Dadaab refugee camp in 1991.  She is generation one.

She has a child the next year, 1992.  That child is generation two.

That child has a child in 2010.  That child is generation three.


In 2019 there are three generations of children living in that refugee camp.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 3, 2019)

Shusha said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Indigent to Arabia....There has never been a Palestinian country.
> ...



1)  I believe the word is indigenous.  Doesn't indigent mean poor?

2)  I also agree that there could be a fully independent "New Palestine" in the future, even though Palestine has never been an independent country in the past.  But not at the expense of Israel!  There can only be one if they agree, sincerely, to share the Land peacefully.  (I've read New Palestine is the name that Jared Kushner wants to call the West Bank.)


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 3, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Lately, I've been reading alot about Napoleon.  During his time, Belgium wasn't really independent yet, but there was a country called Westphalia.  Today there's no Westphalia but there is a Belgium.  And South Sudan became a country only a couple of years ago.  In other words, countries come and go all the time.


----------



## admonit (Dec 3, 2019)

Shusha said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > It's unlikely that refugees' children, born in Kenya, are registered as refugees.
> ...


It's not "actually", but just your opinion, which you cannot prove.
And I provided an official data.


> They are children born in a camp where neither they or their parents are permitted to leave.


So, how can you explain the current number of refugees 217,108, supposing that the children are automatically registered as UNHCR refugees?


> If they are not refugees, what are they?.


Irrelevant. Either the children are automatically registered as UNHCR refugees or not. There are refugees in.your country, but they are not registered as UNHCR refugees.


----------



## admonit (Dec 3, 2019)

Shusha said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > What three generation?
> ...


With my M.S. in mathematics? Sure I need. 


> 23 year old woman enters Dadaab refugee camp in 1991.  She is generation one.
> 
> She has a child the next year, 1992.  That child is generation two.
> 
> ...


So, after 19 years you counted  three generations? Great.
Now, after you teached me, you certainly can correct calculations of UN: 60 years - and oops just three generations.
Three Generations of Palestine refugees: The Quest for Human Rights and Human Dignity


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Just keeps standing up for Arabs.

Another leftist.  Sheol for you.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



I'm not too crazy about Arabs, but they are still ppl too.  They are decended from our father Avraham, so they are our cousins and Hashem blessed Ishmael.  But more than caring about Arabs, I care about my fellow Jews, and I want us to live in peace.  Don't all our prayers end with the words, "May Hashem bless His ppl Israel with peace?"  It's really very childish to hint that I'm a traitor or to wish Hell upon me.  (Although Hell is really called Gehinnom in Judaism.  Sheol just means the Underworld and is mostly used by Christians.  Are you a Christian?)



Ropey said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



The Prophet Samuel lives in Sheol.  I'll be in good company.  Thank you.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


No.

That's a stopping point and no one lives there. That place just filters the evil out.

Now bow down to the state.

Forever Socialist.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Nimrod also thought that the state was everything. Then he was told:

"You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting."

And was nevermore.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Never mind with your cryptic statements.  They are narrow minded and not very deep.  I remember when I was a student in Bar Ilan in 1982, and took a bus to the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron.  As I got off the bus, a smiling stranger met me and proceeded to take me all around the tombs.  It was an hour before I found out he was an Arab.  I wore a kippa, so he knew I was Jewish right away.  And here in NY, I worked with an Arab who used to call me "Cousin."  Not all Arabs are animals.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


No one said that they were.

And.

There's nothing cryptic about you bowing to the state. Kapos did as well. Bolsheviks also.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 3, 2019)

admonit said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


The Mayukwayuka camp in Zambia was set up in 1966.  That would be 3 generations.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 3, 2019)

Coyote said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


But as we have seen, under UNHCR rules only those who left Angola are refugees and not descendants born in Zambia.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 3, 2019)

admonit said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...




Not my opinion, the UN's opinion

From UN.org

*Descendants of refugees retain refugee status*
_Under international law and the principle of family unity, the children of refugees and their descendants are also considered refugees until a durable solution is found.  ... UNHCR recognize descendants as refugees on this basis, a practice that has been widely accepted by the international community, including both donors and refugee hosting countries. _


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 3, 2019)

Shusha said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Under the 1951 Convention on refugees, only those who left their country of origin can be considered refugees, and that Convention is the mandate the UNHCR is authorized to follow.  The term, until a durable solution is found, is found only in the UNRWA mandate and not in any UNHCR document.


----------



## Shusha (Dec 3, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...




The principle of family unity, and the rights of the children of refugees, has been in place since the UN Conference on the Status of Refugees and Stateless Persons.  The UN does consider the children of refugees to be refugees themselves, and that concept is being adopted in customary law.  So, shrug.  It is what it is.  

And, frankly, it seems morally correct that children of Somali refugees living in a camp in Kenya should be considered refugees.  Again, if they are not, what are they?  Somali nationals? Kenyan nationals?  It matters.  

That said, this endless Palestinians descendant nonsense is just that -- nonsense.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Guys guys...

Instead of wasting time arguing about those whom the Torah calls *'non-people'*,
You could make Aliyah and vote in the next elections this spring.

Or before voting, join the ongoing discussions about *Parliamentary Monarchy*,
then instead of arguing about "bowing to state", You can argue who makes the King's Bracha and who answers Amen.

The Arabs... once relieved of the burden of playing the role the West projects on them, and responsibility for creating something they neither want nor know how, will have less psychological obstacles fitting into a power structure, an environment for which they've been wired and used to in the middle east most naturally.

All I'm saying we might not need another '67 to order things in their place,
just look at all the Arabs gathering around Rabbi Zamir Cohen...


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



I already have and do. Now I just come back to Canada for pension purposes and to visit.

Our left are somewhat better since they know the danger. The Western leftist Jews are far more philosophical about the danger.

js


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Ropey ForeverYoung436 - links added ^^^


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 3, 2019)

Shusha said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


There is no UN convention on refugees other than the 1951 Convention on the Status of refugees and the UNRWA mandate, so  these are the  only legal guidelines for the definition of  a refugee and while UNRWA makes a  political statement about Palestinian refugees by declaring the refugees until the end of time until a durable solution the Arabs approve of is found, UNHCR makes no political statements about the people it provides for.  

The original draft for UNRWA stated that the UN would provide for the refugees for a period of five years while working to relocate them, but the Arab states refused to sign, and demanded there be no time limit and no efforts to relocate the refugees, thus the term, until a durable solution be found, was entered into the document, and to the Arabs in 1949 a durable solution meant the destruction of Israel, meaning the Palestinian refugees will remain refugees until the end of time or the destruction of Israel, whichever comes first.  

This change from the first proposal for UNRWA was a huge victory for the Arab states that had just been so soundly humiliated by the Israeli military in their failed invasion of Israel, but it has proved to be a disaster for the refugees, who under the original proposal would have had the opportunity to relocate to other countries in which they might have led safer and more prosperous lives.  Now, they are held hostage by the Arab states to be used as a propaganda tool against Israel, and these Arab states are further incentivized to to abuse the refugees because if they allow them to become citizens, UNRWA will stop pouring money into their economies.

What are the descendants of refugees if not also refugees?  Presently, they are stateless people, which is an inconvenience, but after all, what are the benefits of being a Somali citizen?  The UN could easily provide these descendants of refugees with a better future by offering the designation of citizens of the  world and providing them with UN ID's and travel documents to overcome the inconveniences of being stateless.  

Too often bureaucracies, even well intentioned bureaucracies, tend to prioritize sustaining the bureaucracy above the interests of the people they are serving, so while the humane thing to do in situations where no local resolution to the refugee problem is likely, the UN should offer the opportunity and assistance to relocate to other countries which will offer them the opportunity for citizenship, but under its mandate, UNRWA is not permitted to and UNHCR seems reluctant to, the beneficiaries of these bureaucracies are offered no relief beyond sustenance.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility and burst that bubble?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain.  Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 3, 2019)

I don't appreciate being called a Kapo.  First of all, Ropey, who are you to even judge anyone who lived in a concentration camp?  Unless you went thru it yourself, we can never understand what those desperate, starving Jews went thru at all.  Secondly, being called a traitor is a terrible thing to call a fellow Jew.  We say in our prayers, "v'limalshinim al tihi tikvah"...there should be no hope for informants.  It would take many more years for there to be any hope for the so-called Palestinians to shape up themselves enough to deserve a state in the heartland of Israel.  As it is now, it's just not possible.  I'm concerned more about my fellow Jews than about the Arabs, and I just would like for there to be peace, like we pray for all the time.  As for leftist Jews, my Israeli cousins are more leftist than I will ever be.  I would never sell out my fellow Jews, and my heart bleeds more for them than for any Arab.  As for worshipping the state and other things like that, it's not really relevant to this discussion.  So please no more of these Shame on you comments, wishing me to go to hell, and other such narishkeit/nonsense.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 3, 2019)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...


We have seen no such thing.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 3, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


lol  You saw it, but apparently you didn't understand it.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.



But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding and engaging the truth that they resonate with, and without using their language?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



When one repents to the mind of G-d.
Who doesn't have to be.
And if they listen to the mind of G-d.
They need not listen to me (man).


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



This is why the country is called  "Israel" and not "Judah". Why it uses a star instead of מְנוֹרָה.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



100%

How does the Torah criticize Metushelah, and if I'm not wrong also Noah?

In other words how this doesn't turn into "I'll just do my job, build me an ark and good luck to all"? Or into another "You won't move me from here until Mashiah arrives with a limousine and fireworks at my door"?

Harei there's a collective reality to sin and mitzvah, it influences the Jewish soul in its entirety What good is my Tshuvah if it's only for me?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



imo

You're looking at it ass backwards. But then Herzl had the question bass ackwards too...

First one has to believe in G-d.  Socialists believe G-d is the state.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...


And Herzl said "today in Basel I've established the Jewish state, no one may believe that now, but in 50 years no one will be able to ignore", and 51 years later we became independent.

What should be the question? Please elaborate.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



There is no question. That's the thing. That's how we were emancipated by Marx with the Hegelian synthesis set to a "Jewish Question."

There never was a Jewish question for the Jews.  The Torah makes the pattern clear.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Dec 3, 2019)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> ...


Deny their identity as terrorists? Who is doing that exactly?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> be able to ignore", and 51 years later we became independent.
> 
> What should be the question? Please elaborate.



Who hardened Pharoah's heart so that he did not have independent will on choice?

^This is not a 'why' question.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> First one has to believe in G-d.  Socialists believe G-d is the state.



Like Pharaoh was the state and a god at the same time?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 3, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > First one has to believe in G-d.  Socialists believe G-d is the state.
> ...


Pharoah sure didn't harden G-d's heart since G-d told Moses prior that this would occur.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > be able to ignore", and 51 years later we became independent.
> ...


Hashem, an that's exactly the question that the Torah asks.


----------



## rylah (Dec 3, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



I'm sorry, but I'm losing Your point.
Hashem can turn any our deviation to fulfill his plan.

The question, why should we follow the known patterns, when freedom of choice is still available? Avraham Avinu A"H had a weakness in the Grar region...and what do we have today?

An opportunity, and the choice to use it or not is still in our hands.


----------



## Mindful (Dec 4, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



There's an ongoing question about whether Belgium is a country. Meant unkindly more often than not. 

Most bad jokes in Europe are about Belgians. And indeed it is a strange place, divided as it is by language.

Nevertheless, the region has seen more bloodshed than any human could endure.

Westphalia is now a federal state.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 4, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Yes, I had forgotten that the Torah calls the modern so-called Palestinians a "non-people."  Very prophetic.  It predicted that we would be harassed by a certain "people" who are not really a people, and that's exactly what's happening today.  However, I believe the Torah meant "non-people" in the nationalistic sense, in that they are not a unique people but are part of the larger Arab people.  That is exactly what this thread is about.  It doesn't mean that they are like animals, and not human beings.  That is how the anti-Semites claim we look at Gentiles--as being less than human.  Bereishis (Genesis) says that ALL ppl were created in the image of G-d.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

Socialist Kapos discussing G-d and Hegel/Marx in the same breath.  Something tells me that you'll need a lot more time for filtering than many.


----------



## admonit (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> Socialist Kapos


I don't think that this is an appropriate rhetoric in discussion. Especially between Jews.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 4, 2019)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


They are not all terrorists


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

admonit said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Socialist Kapos
> ...



Yes.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Dec 4, 2019)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


99% of them support terrorists.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 4, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


A non people.

In denying them their identity from the most fundamental and religious level are you and others any different than those who deny Jews their identity?  I dont think so.  Regardless of how that identity started (coalescing around resistance to Israel) it is an identity now with it's own history and unique heritage defined by conflict and diaspora.  Why is it so fundamentally impossible to accept to some that they must actively seek to erase it?


----------



## admonit (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...


Ate you even Jewish, troll?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

The kapos work well with the socialists.


----------



## Coyote (Dec 4, 2019)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > AzogtheDefiler said:
> ...


No.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

^socialist, not kapo.


----------



## admonit (Dec 4, 2019)

Shusha said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I already commented this article and there were no answer.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Quibbling over percentages?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> Socialist Kapos discussing G-d and Hegel/Marx in the same breath.  Something tells me that you'll need a lot more time for filtering than many.



Perhaps you can say in plain English what you're talking about, instead of that philosophical gibberish.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

It's better that you don't understand. Then you can't complain as much.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> It's better that you don't understand. Then you can't complain as much.



Then Congrats, you have the advantage in this debate, since I can't give a rebuttal to gobblelity-gook.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Dec 4, 2019)

Coyote said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Agree to disagree?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > It's better that you don't understand. Then you can't complain as much.
> ...



Good, that's more socialist ideology that I won't hear.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



I've been talking about resolving the Israeli Arab conflict, using some practicality and some Jewish faith issues.  It seems you're speaking of economics.  Since we're talking about different issues, there's no reason for you to comment further.  Unless you're one of those ppl who have to have the last word.  Somehow I get the impression that you're one of those ppl, so go ahead...


----------



## admonit (Dec 4, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Socialist Kapos discussing G-d and Hegel/Marx in the same breath.  Something tells me that you'll need a lot more time for filtering than many.
> ...


The poster probably means that being religious and socialist (left) is oxymoron.


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Enough with the charade,
It doesn't take a genius to understand it's contempt to basic human intelligence

You haven't been able to present a single thing that constitutes THEIR own identity,
without ripping every other culture, to the point where the only definite clear definition of this collective is nothing but their expressed -  genocidal Jew hatred.

And then you have the audacity to accuse your target victim, of the crime you were prevented from committing??!


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



You just keep spouting off Hegel/Marx and then conflating it with talk about Hashem.

Your recorder is copying it all down.


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I have no idea where You saw Hegel/Marx in my answer to Coyote.
Frankly, my knowledge of Hegel is less than none, Marx only vaguely, and I'm sure not planning on reading the Capital.

In fact the things I talked about in our conversation, I've learned in Torah lessons.
The only construct outside of this frame is probably archetype of the collective unconscious by C.G. Jung, that it.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

You say 'collective' more times than you say' Hashem'.


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> You say 'collective' more times than you say' Hashem'.



"A song of Asaph. G-d is present in the congregation of E-l"

 Tehilim 82


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

Congregation =/= Collective

It's not even close.


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> Congregation =/= Collective



So how many? And WHO said that?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Congregation =/= Collective
> ...


Ow many ou want?


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



And what does our name even mean?
What is Srara?


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



עִבְרִי


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



I don't see G-d's name in there.
Neither in Ya'akov.

I dunno, maybe there's a pattern with a purpose:

Avram - singular
Avraham - collective

Ya'akov - singular
Yisrael- collective

There must be something, if Hashem changed their names in that order,
placing his name davka on the collective. As if there was some plan that proceeded further with this transformation...

Help me out.


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

*PA claims Yehuda Glick ''stormed'' the Temple Mount
*
The PA news agency accuses Yehuda Glick and other "settlers" of a "provocative outbreak" on the Temple Mount compound.

PA official news agency Wafa reports that "extreme settler" (according to their language) Yehuda Glick led a new storming of al-Aqsa Mosque compound (Temple Mount), accompanied by dozens of "settlers."

According to the report, Glick, a former Likud MK, entered the al-Aqsa Mosque compound (Temple Mount) from the Mughrabi Gate and he and his companions were conducting "provocative tours" of the site and left through the Shalshelet gate.

The Palestinian Authority does not recognize any religious or historical affiliation of the Jewish people to Jerusalem, and it claims that the Temple never existed.

The religion of Islam covered all fathers and prophets, including Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and according to the concept of Islam, they were all Muslims, and the Israelites mentioned in the Torah and the Koran actually received the gospel of Islam, but rejected it.

In the Islamic faith, Jesus was not a Jew or Christian but a Muslim, and he also bore the gospel of Islam.

*PA claims Yehuda Glick "stormed" the Temple Mount.*


----------



## Ropey (Dec 4, 2019)

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...





rylah said:


> And what does *our *name even mean?


----------



## rylah (Dec 4, 2019)

*Know Your History: Even the Term “Free Palestine”*
*Was Co-opted From the Jews*

_Free, free Palestine!”_

These are the words shouted out by Israel haters worldwide, more often than not an expression of their wish for the destruction of the state of Israel.

But did you know the *first use of the words “Free Palestine”* were for the exact opposite objective?


American League for a Free Palestine (ALFP) was created in July 1944, by Peter H Bergson (formerly Hillel Kook), for the purpose of supporting and funding his Hebrew Committee of National Liberation in Palestine. The ALFP attracted Jewish and non-Jewish members from all occupations, but especially those in politics and entertainment. The ALFP’s most notable achievement was the work of award winning playwright and director Ben Hecht, a member of the league. Hecht wrote A Flag is Born to propagandize the cause by comparing the fight for a free Palestine against the British to the American Revolution. With money raised from the production of the play, the league purchased a boat for the aliyah of Holocaust survivors from France. The group dissolved in December 1948 as the goal of the league had been achieved.






Do you think the Jews of the time would have named their movement this way had there been a distinguishable group of Arabs identifying as “palestinians”, who had run a state called “Palestine”?

*Know Your History: Even the Term 'Free Palestine' Was Co-opted From the Jews*


----------



## deorro 1 (Dec 4, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...




Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

It's frighentening to not have knowledge that a person can actually literally 'die' if confined within 'no knowledge'.


If you can think about it this way it might make clearer sense. 


If sense is like cents, a person can 'die' literally without being around 'sense'.


----------



## rylah (Dec 5, 2019)

*PA Historian Admits No ‘Palestinian People’ in 1917 *

From the indispensable Palestinian Media Watch:

To mark the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority published an op-ed in the British Guardian newspaper. After castigating Lord Balfour for promising “a land that was not his to promise” he went on to describe the Palestinian people as “a proud nation with a rich heritage of ancient civilisations, and the cradle of the Abrahamic faiths.”

Contradicting Abbas’ historical revision, just a day before, PA official TV broadcast an interview with the historian Abd Al-Ghani Salameh, who explained that in 1917 there was no Palestinian people.

During the broadcast, the host of the program asked:

“There always was a historical struggle over Palestine, and many wanted to rule it. How did the aspirations to rule affect the Palestinian existence, the Palestinians’ options, and the Palestinians’ possibilities of development?”

“Before the Balfour Promise (i.e., Declaration) when the Ottoman rule ended, *Palestine’s political borders as we know them today did not exist,* and *there was nothing called a Palestinian people* with a political identity as we know today, since Palestine’s lines of administrative division stretched from east to west and included Jordan and southern Lebanon, and like all peoples of the region [the Palestinians] were liberated from the Turkish rule and immediately moved to colonial rule, without forming a Palestinian people’s political identity. However, Palestine as a geographic area and the people dwelling within it enjoyed prosperity.”


*PA Historian Admits No 'Palestinian People' in 1917*


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 5, 2019)

rylah said:


> *PA Historian Admits No ‘Palestinian People’ in 1917 *
> 
> From the indispensable Palestinian Media Watch:
> 
> ...



Coyote and Tinmore, do you hear this?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 5, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > *PA Historian Admits No ‘Palestinian People’ in 1917 *
> ...


No argument here. There was no Palestine until 1924.

The people, though, were the natives of the land since they had lived there for hundreds even thousands of years.


----------



## DGS49 (Dec 5, 2019)

Imagine if you will, a movement in the State of Utah to form an LDS "State" (that is to say, COUNTRY).  They secede from the United States, declare themselves to be the independent country of Smitheria, put up hard borders, form their own army, national government, print currency, etc.  The United Nations agrees with their right to secede and set up their own country, and formally declares their support.  The surrounding states declare war on Smitheria, which war ends up in a stalemate with the borders holding.

But the non-Mormons in Utah object to all this and still want to be considered "Americans," so they begin violent protests to destroy the LDS state of "Smitheria" - even denying its right to exist.  They build their own schools and teach the kids that Mormons are...bad, and that Smitherea must be erased from the face of the earth.

But those non-Mormons are not a recognizable "nation," or people, ethnicity, or anything else.  They are just the people who happened to be living in Utah when the new nation was formed, and they got caught up in it because of where they lived.

Just like the "Palestinians."  They are generic arabs who happened to be living in Israel when that nation was formed, but don't want to be a part of it.  They have no unique history, ethnicity, religion, or anything else other than geographical kinship.

I think my analogy is apropos.


----------



## rylah (Dec 7, 2019)

DGS49 said:


> Imagine if you will, a movement in the State of Utah to form an LDS "State" (that is to say, COUNTRY).  They secede from the United States, declare themselves to be the independent country of Smitheria, put up hard borders, form their own army, national government, print currency, etc.  The United Nations agrees with their right to secede and set up their own country, and formally declares their support.  The surrounding states declare war on Smitheria, which war ends up in a stalemate with the borders holding.
> 
> But the non-Mormons in Utah object to all this and still want to be considered "Americans," so they begin violent protests to destroy the LDS state of "Smitheria" - even denying its right to exist.  They build their own schools and teach the kids that Mormons are...bad, and that Smitherea must be erased from the face of the earth.
> 
> ...


That comparison would work if Smitheria was an indigenous nation with rich history nd unique culture constantly under attack in American, and rather than merely secede re-constitute their independence.

But basically yes, Palestinians to Israel are like Americans to Milwaukee,
only with much less, if any, to offer humanity.


----------



## rylah (Dec 7, 2019)




----------



## rylah (Dec 8, 2019)

*The Origins of Arab Settlers in the Land of Israel*
*What’s in a name? In the case of the Arabs, it tells you what their tribe and country of origin are. It also dispels the biggest fallacy the “Palestinians” would like you to believe.
*
The Arabs mark May the 15th as a day of remembrance for the catastrophe, the “Nakba” in Arabic, that befell them with the creation of the State of Israel. They claim the “indigenous” Arab inhabitants had to flee their “homeland” as a result. They conveniently fail to mention the reason for the “catastrophe” and where these supposed indigenous Arab inhabitants actually came from and when.

UN General Assembly resolution 181 of 1947 called for the partition of the British Mandate in Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab entities. The Jewish leadership accepted the resolution. The Arabs countries rejected it, which is their right. What they had no right to, was to declare war on the Jewish population in the area.

The armies of seven Arab countries set out to destroy the Jewish state, which they outnumbered a hundred to one. They also persecuted the Jewish citizens who lived in their own countries for hundreds of years, forcing them to leave and take refuge in the newly created State of Israel.

The Arab nations, together with the Arab population in the British Mandate area, sought to annihilate the Jews in the region and failed. The only catastrophe for them in this scenario was that they lost the war.

As in any war, people were uprooted and made to relocate. Nearly a million Jews – who were not even involved in the hostilities – were expelled from Arab countries; and over 600,000 Arabs from Israeli territory, many of whom were actually told to leave by the advancing Arab armies.

The “Mandate for Palestine” by the League of Nations (1922) defined the borders of the homeland of the Jewish people as the area between the Jordan river in the east, to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. This, as explained, due to a long historical and deep religious connection of the Jews to this land. It defined “Jews” as the people of the land which the San Remo commission (1920) called “Palestine”, using the old Roman title “Syria-Palestina”, given by Caesar Hadrian, in 132 a.d.

The Jews brought back the original name of “Israel” (ישראל) after almost 2000 years. To counter that, the Arabs adopted the Roman term “Palestine”, a word which is has no meaning in Arabic. Although the original founding document of the Palestine Liberation Organization terror group, the “PLO” said in 1964 (Article 24): “_This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area”_, the PLO emblem, as well as that of the Hamas, define a “Palestine” in the same exact borders the League of Nations used for the Land of Israel: from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.

They claimed indigenous status as “Palestinians” who lived in the area for generations. A review of history though, shows that from the time of the expulsion of the Jews by the Romans, the inhabitants of the area fluctuated.

From the time of the conquest of the land by the Muslim Arabs in 636 CE, the rulers of the land constantly shifted between Muslims, Crusaders, Arab Tribes among themselves and even the Mongols. This until 1517, with the Ottoman conquest that brought a measure of relative stability to the country, but also not for long.

The waves of conquests and wars; natural calamities such as earth quakes, harsh living conditions; as well as the periodic plundering of Arab Bedouin tribes from the desert, made the area undesirable. There are relatively few elements that can prove continuity of settlement in the Land of Israel whether Jew or Arab.

Thus, on the eve of the Zionist settlement, which began with the founding of Petah Tikva in 1878, the country was mostly deserted and abandoned. Its population was sparse and partly nomadic. Famous tourists who visited Israel at the time testified separately to this situation: They found a small rural Bedouin population living in muddy huts and described the place as a marshland, mostly uncultivated terrain, used as a grazing fields for goats and sheep. The local inhabitants were not the owners of the land. The owners were wealthy families from throughout the Ottoman Empire, who had no use for the land beyond the titles and honors it bestowed upon them.

With the migration of Jews to the Land of Israel between 1870 and 1947, the Arab population in the area grew by 270%, nearly three times that of Egypt, the Arab country with the highest natural birthrate at the time. In other words, the increase was mostly due to migration.

The mass immigration was the result of economic development and modernization following Jewish immigration. The Arab immigrants came in search of a livelihood.

Tawfiq Bey al-Hourani, the Syrian governor of Hauran, said in 1934 that “over 30,000 Syrians invaded Palestine within a few months.”

Winston Churchill, on May 22, 1939, stated that Arab immigration during the Mandate period to Palestine was so great that their numbers grew by such a rate that even the Jews of the entire world could not match.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt, President of the United States, said on May 17, 1939 that the immigration of Arabs to Palestine since 1921 was far greater than the immigration of Jews in recent times.

According to the British census in 1931, the Muslims in the country were not necessarily Arabs, judging from the languages they spoke: Afghan, Albanian, Arabic, Bosnian, Circassian, Kurdish, Persian, Sudanese and Turkish.

The Arabs themselves admit that Palestinian identity is forged as we showed in a previous article by Judith Bergman and as seen in the following video:


It is clear from this that Arabs migrated en masse to the area around the same time as Jews immigrated here. But there is another, very simple way to identify the origins of the Arabs, and that is according to their surnames. In the Arab communities, the surnames identify the tribe, or clans which one belongs to, a country or a region of their roots, and in some cases a profession.

It is important to stress that in the tribal culture the loyalty of each individual is first and foremost to their tribe and family. The western concept of nationalism is foreign to the Arabs’ tribal cultural. This is one of the reasons that with the fall of the central authority in Arab countries in the past decade, those nations have fallen into disarray.

Yasser Arafat’s full name for example, is Yasser Yusuf Arafat, Al-Qudwa, Al-Husseini. While he claimed he was born in Jerusalem, he was born in Cairo and his father’s family originates from the tribe of Al-Qudwa, which is in Syria. His mother, Husseini, was an Egyptian citizen, though the name exposes her roots in the region between Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

Here are some of the origins of common Arabic surnames one can easily find in any phone book in Israel, as well as on the map which reveals their location of origin (Since these names are all in Arabic, some might be spelled differently in other places):

*Al-Turki – Turkey
Sultan – Turkey
Uthuman / Ottoman – Turkey
Al Masri – Egypt
Masrawa – Egypt
Al Tartir – Tartir village, Egypt
Bardawil – Lake and village Bardawil, Egypt
Tarabin – South-east Sinai (Bedouin), Egypt
Abu-Suta / Abu-Seeta – Tarabin tribe, Egypt
Sha’alan – Bedouin, Egypt
Fayumi – Al-Fayum village, Egypt
Al Bana – Egypt
Al-Baghdadi – Baghdad, Iraq
Abbas – Baghdad, Iraq
Zoabi – West Iraq
Al-Faruki – Iraq
Al-Tachriti – Iraq
Zabaide / Zubeidy – Iraq
Husseini / Hussein – Saudi Arabia (Hussein was the 4th Imam)
Tamimi – Saudi Arabia
Hejazi – Hejaz region (Red Sea shoreline) in Saudi Arabia
Al-Kurash / Al Kurashi – Saudi Arabia
Ta’amari – Saudi Arabia
Al-Halabi – Haleb region, North Syria
Al-Allawi – West Syria (shoreline)
Al-Hurani – Huran District, South Syria
Al-Qudwa – Syria
Nashashibi – Syria
Khamati – Syria
Lubnani – Lebanon
Sidawi – Sidon, Lebanon
Al-Surani – Sour-Tair, South Lebanon
Al-Yamani – Yemen
Al-Azad – Yemen
Hadadin – Yemen
Matar – Matar village. Yemen
Morad – Yemen
Khamadan – Yemen
Mugrabi – Maghreb, Morocco
Al-Araj – Morocco
Bushnak – Bosnia
Al-Shashani – Chechnya
Al-Jazir – Algiers
Al-Abid (Bedouin) – Sudan
Samahadna (Bedouin) – Sudan (still a matter of debate)
Al-Hamis – Bahrain
Zarqawi – Jordan
Tarabulsi – Tripoli, Lebanon*





*The Origins of Arab Settlers in the Land of Israel*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2019)

rylah said:


> *The Origins of Arab Settlers in the Land of Israel*
> *What’s in a name? In the case of the Arabs, it tells you what their tribe and country of origin are. It also dispels the biggest fallacy the “Palestinians” would like you to believe.
> *
> The Arabs mark May the 15th as a day of remembrance for the catastrophe, the “Nakba” in Arabic, that befell them with the creation of the State of Israel. They claim the “indigenous” Arab inhabitants had to flee their “homeland” as a result. They conveniently fail to mention the reason for the “catastrophe” and where these supposed indigenous Arab inhabitants actually came from and when.
> ...


An Israeli publication, of course.


----------



## rylah (Dec 8, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > *The Origins of Arab Settlers in the Land of Israel*
> ...



And extensively detailed on facts.
Is that why you have nothing of substance to refute anything?


----------



## rylah (Dec 8, 2019)

*The Tamimi Tribe Baghdad 1939 *


Just to think that they are also the *royal tribe of Qatar*...
and the whole picture about so-called "Palestinians" becomes clear.


----------



## Mindful (Dec 9, 2019)

Palestine ceased to exist in 1948 when Israel won its war of independence, and Jordan (which is also part of historic Palestine) seized the West Bank and Egypt captured the Gaza Strip.

The use of the word “Palestine” is sometimes unclear. Is it referencing the Palestinian Authority, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Israel, Gaza, or some combination of these areas? Depending on the interpretation, this could delegitimize the existence of Israel and the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their homeland.

It is also problematic because it can imply that the conflict is over an area where the Palestinians were once sovereign. This feeds the narrative of Israel as an occupier. The Palestinians have never had a state, and had no interest in one during the Jordanian occupation.

Referring to the Israel-Palestine conflict also reinforces the idea that the dispute is over land. Often misleadingly described as a fight by two peoples over one land, the reality is more complex, as it involves politics, psychology, history, and religion. In recent years, the Islamization of the conflict has eclipsed other factors, as many Palestinians reject the historical Jewish connection to the land and will not contemplate Jews living on Islamic territory or ruling over Muslims.

The most pernicious aspect of the reference to “Palestine” is to create a false equivalency with the sovereign nation of Israel. Israel is a democracy that shares the values and interests of the West. Palestine does not exist; it may one day in the future, but for now, there is only the Palestinian Authority, which is autocratic, denies its people their basic rights, and does not share the values or interests of the West.


Losing the Semantic War on ‘Palestine’


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 9, 2019)

rylah said:


> *The Origins of Arab Settlers in the Land of Israel*
> *What’s in a name? In the case of the Arabs, it tells you what their tribe and country of origin are. It also dispels the biggest fallacy the “Palestinians” would like you to believe.
> *
> The Arabs mark May the 15th as a day of remembrance for the catastrophe, the “Nakba” in Arabic, that befell them with the creation of the State of Israel. They claim the “indigenous” Arab inhabitants had to flee their “homeland” as a result. They conveniently fail to mention the reason for the “catastrophe” and where these supposed indigenous Arab inhabitants actually came from and when.
> ...





rylah said:


> The “Mandate for Palestine” by the League of Nations (1922) defined the borders


The "Mandate" was not a land/border treaty.



rylah said:


> From the time of the conquest of the land by the Muslim Arabs in 636 CE, the rulers of the land constantly shifted between Muslims, Crusaders, Arab Tribes among themselves and even the Mongols. This until 1517, with the Ottoman conquest that brought a measure of relative stability to the country, but also not for long.


The rulers changed but there is nothing saying that the people changed.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 9, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > *The Origins of Arab Settlers in the Land of Israel*
> ...



Didn't English Pilgrims come over on the Mayflower?  Didn't the Spanish conquistadors bring Spanish and Portuguese immigrants with them?  They turned South America into Latin America.  Churchill said the economic prosperity brought about by the Zionists caused a mass influx of immigrants from Arab countries seeking employment.  This can be seen by the surnames of the so-called "Palestinians", which reflect their countries of origin.  Hate to break it to ya, but they ain't Canaanites, lol.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2019)

RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
⁜→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

You try and pull this crap all the time.



P F Tinmore said:


> The "Mandate" was not a land/border treaty.
> The rulers changed but there is nothing saying that the people changed.


*(COMMENT)*

The authority for the Mandate and be traced directly back to the victory of the Allied Powers over the Axis Powers at the end of the Great War (WWI).  You can quibble all you want, but at the end of the day, the Arab Palestinians had no say in the matter of sovereignty or the direct partitioning of the territories in the Middle East, formerly under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic.  

At the conclusion of hostilities and in agreement with the terms set between the Allied Powers and the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic → the future of the territories → being settled or to be settled by the parties to the treaty were at the discretion of the Allied Powers _(not the Arab Palestinians or any Arab contingent for that matter)_.

The → future of the territories → cast by the laws and documentation that is written, what has been written, are that which defines the status of the territories in question, were largely driven - based upon what the Allied Powers have decided.  What decisions going into the future will be an outcome → based upon what the Israelis will decide - moving forward.  There is not one essential legal instrument since the Armistice of Mudros _(Ottoman surrender)_, in which the Arab Palestinians contributed that lead to the creation of any meaningful self-governing institution.  This was by their own string of decisions and policy that armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine; there being no solution for the Question of Palestine → except through Jihad




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 9, 2019)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ⁜→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> You try and pull this crap all the time.
> ...


Indeed, the Palestinians have always been jerked around by foreign assholes. That does not negate their rights as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 9, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ...



Indeed, UN opinions are just opinions.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2019)

RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
⁜→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

It is one thing to say you have a "right."



P F Tinmore said:


> Indeed, the Palestinians have always been jerked around by foreign assholes. That does not negate their rights as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.


*(COMMENT)*

It is altogether a different matter to attempt to force-feed that right in a manner to compel others to do something.

You can have all the affirmations you want.  An affirmation does not require the Israelis to take any action, not in their best interest.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 9, 2019)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ⁜→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> It is one thing to say you have a "right."
> ...


Nobody has to do something for people to exercise their rights.


----------



## rylah (Dec 10, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > *The Origins of Arab Settlers in the Land of Israel*
> ...



Like having names of foreign places and countries as their surnames,
and having to rename the original names of local towns
because they cannot pronounce them.

Or their own confirmation that half of so called "Palestinians"
are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis.

 This nothing?


----------



## rylah (Dec 10, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ...



Indeed, "the Palestinians" are a bunch of foreigner invader themselves,
that's exactly what the word means:






Couldn't be more in your face.


----------



## rylah (Dec 10, 2019)

*Just to name a few...*







"The Ayyubi families of Palestine have relations in the Kurdistan Region.
We would like to be connected with other Kurds from Kurdistan.
Their numbers have increased to 70,000 families in Khalil (Hebron) city"

*Kurds of Palestine hoping to connect with home*


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 10, 2019)

Well, there's Tinmore's girlfriend, Shirley Temper, the one who goes around beating soldiers (with them having almost superhuman restraint in not slapping her back).  She has blond hair and blue eyes--not exactly a Middle Eastern look.  She's probably descended from Bosnian Muslims--and not from the Canaanites.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2019)

RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
⁜→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

John Rawls, often described as the most important political philosopher of the 20th century, set ideas in motion that are the bedrock in the Principles of justice.  This theory establishes two principles of justice from the original position. 

◈  The first of these expresses, that 'Basic' liberty includes freedoms of conscience, association and expression as well as democratic rights. 

◈  The second principle of equality sets the guarantee of liberties that represent meaningful options for all in society and ensure distributive justice.​
These insights approach and include a _personal property_ right, slightly different from what is generally understood.  It is defended in terms of "moral capacities" and "self-respect," rather than an appeal to a natural right _(inherent rights) _of self-ownership. 



P F Tinmore said:


> Nobody has to do something for people to exercise their rights.


*(COMMENT)*

In his book, • *A Theory of Justice* • Rawls formulated a comprehensive theory of international politics with the publication of • _*The Law of Peoples*_.•   He claimed there that "well-ordered" peoples could be either "liberal" or "decent". Rawls's basic distinction in international politics is that his preferred emphasis on a society of peoples is separate from the more conventional and historical discussion of international politics as based on relationships between states (as in the *Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States* A/RES/25/2625).

You are correct.  But only in the sense of "action:  (*See; Negative vs. Positive Rights*)

◈   A *negative right* is a *right* not to be subjected to an action of another person or group; *negative rights* permit or oblige inaction. 

◈   A *positive right* is a *right* to be subjected to an action or another person or group; *positive rights* permit or oblige action.​
In the discussion of "Rights" relative to the Question of Palestine, we have to be careful... "Negative and positive rights frequently conflict because carrying out the duties conferred by positive rights often entails infringing upon negative rights." _(Globalization101 > Issues in Depth > Human Rights > Negative vs. Positive Rights)_ And the State of Israel will or will not take action based upon the best interest of Israel; just like most countries.

We've discussed this before when you raise these issues of "rights."  *IF* Israel has effective control of territory (1967), before the Independence of the Arab Palestinian People (1988); and the Arab Palestinians demand that Israel relinquish its control over that territory in favor of the Arab Palestinian, THEN the Arab Palestinians are demanding and "action."  But IF, as you say, "• Nobody has to do something for people to exercise their rights •" *THEN* the demand becomes contingent based on the outcome of an Arab Palestinian appeal to the Israels on the natural right _(inherent rights) _of self-ownership as determined by the Israelis.

Since it is the policy of the Arab Palestinian that armed conflict is the only viable solution, there is no likelihood that Israel will capitulate.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 10, 2019)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ⁜→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> John Rawls, often described as the most important political philosopher of the 20th century, set ideas in motion that are the bedrock in the Principles of justice.  This theory establishes two principles of justice from the original position.
> ...



This is all very interesting, but you should really start your own thread on that topic.  The subject of this thread, in particular, is that the Palestinians aren't really a people, per se.  The title of your thread could be "Are the Palestinians pursuing the right methods to get a State of their own?"  In the meantime, let's stay on topic.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2019)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ⁜→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> John Rawls, often described as the most important political philosopher of the 20th century, set ideas in motion that are the bedrock in the Principles of justice.  This theory establishes two principles of justice from the original position.
> ...


Palestinians have negative rights.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2019)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ...



Indeed, a product of the situations they create?


----------



## rylah (Dec 11, 2019)

*Kafr ad Dik Town Profile*

Location and Physical Characteristics
Rafat is a Palestinian village in the Salfit Governorate located 13 km west of Salfit City. It is bordered by Kafr ad Dik village to the east, Deir Ballut to the south, Kafr Qasem (of 1948 lands) to the west, and Az Zawiya town to the north (ARIJ-GIS, 2013) (See Map 1).

History
Kafr ad Dik town is said to be named after a man called “Ad Dik” who is believed to have come from the Arabian Peninsula and lived in the Jordan Valley area for a period of time before he moved to the town and settled in it. Prior re to his arrival the region was called “Kafir Ben Muhanna.” *The town was established in 1700 with its residents descending from Arab al Masa‟id tribe from the Arabian Peninsula (Kafr ad Dik Municipality, 2012).
*










*Palestinian Society Applied Research Institute - Kafr ad Dik*


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Dec 11, 2019)

rylah said:


> *Kafr ad Dik Town Profile*
> 
> Location and Physical Characteristics
> Rafat is a Palestinian village in the Salfit Governorate located 13 km west of Salfit City. It is bordered by Kafr ad Dik village to the east, Deir Ballut to the south, Kafr Qasem (of 1948 lands) to the west, and Az Zawiya town to the north (ARIJ-GIS, 2013) (See Map 1).
> ...



Of course.   All the so-called Palestinians come from Arab countries.  They are not Canaanites.


----------



## rylah (Dec 11, 2019)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > *Kafr ad Dik Town Profile*
> ...



Canaanites themselves invaded from the land of Ham, Africans.

Abraham Avinu A"H and his family were a remanent of the Hebrew diaspora, there was an indigenous Hebrew civilization, that of the descendants of Shem in this land prior to that, with which the Canaanites themselves fused into to a certain degree. Therefore when Israel returned with Joshua A"H most of the kingdoms still spoke Hebrew and all the places bore Hebrew names.

Arabs themselves really don't hide their recent history of migration from Arabia and expansion of tribal boundaries through colonization.


----------



## rylah (Dec 13, 2019)

Wonder who were identifying as Palestinians then,
and how come the Palestinians stand in opposition to Arabs...?


----------



## rylah (Dec 13, 2019)




----------



## rylah (Dec 13, 2019)

*Farkha Village Profile*

*Location and Physical Characteristics*
Farkha is a Palestinian village in Salfit Governorate located 3.2 km west of Salfit City. It is bordered by Salfit city to the east and north, Qarawat Bani Zaid and Bani Zaid ash Sharqiya (in Ramallah Governorate) to the south, and Bruqin village to the west (ARIJ-GIS, 2013) (See Map 1).

*History*
Farkha village was named after leading Arab scientist „Abdul Rahman bin Abdullah al Farkhawi‟, while “Al Farkh” literally means a chick or spear blade of wide teeth. The village was established 250 years ago (Farkha Village Council, 2012). Its *residents however are descended from the Hijazi tribes *(Ad Dabbagh, 1991).






Palestinian Society Applied Research Institute - Farkha village profile


----------



## rylah (Dec 17, 2019)




----------



## rylah (Dec 25, 2019)

*Salfit City Profile*

*Location and Physical Characteristics*
Salfit city, which includes Khirbet Qeis (Qeis ruins) within its borders, is the only city in Salfit Governorate. It is bordered by Al Lubban ash Sharqiya (in Ramallah Governorate) and Iskaka to its east, Bani Zeid ash Sharqiya and „Ammuriyya (in Ramallah Governorate) to the south, Farkha and Bruqin villages to its west, and Haris, Kifl Haris and Marda villages to its north (ARIJ-GIS, 2013) (See Map 1).

*History*
Salfit city is known for its cultivation of grape and fig vines and its ancient wine presses which are used in the present day. The word “Salfit” consists of two syllables; “Sal” meaning baskets and “Fit” meaning grapes. The city was established in the Canaanite era (15th century AD), with its residents descending from the Bani Nimra family, originating from East Jordan. The city is also home to members of the Al Hawatra family descending from the prophet Al Abbas.* They left Al Hijaz in Saudi Arabia, travelled through to East Jordan, then moved to the neighboring village of Farkha before residing in Salfit city, which includes Khirbet Qeis locality (Salfit Municipality, 2012).
*
*Palestinian Society Applied Research Institute - Salafit village profile*
.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Mahmoud Abbas the PA leader...


----------



## rylah (Dec 25, 2019)

The *Pan-Arab colors* are black, white, green, and red. Individually, each of the four Pan-Arab colors were intended to represent a certain Arab dynasty, or era.[3] The black was the Abbasid dynastic color; white was the Umayyad dynastic color; green was the Fatimid dynastic color;[4] and red was the Hashemite dynastic color and also represented the Ottoman Empire.

Q.Which one of these Caliphates didn't invade?


----------



## rylah (Jan 5, 2020)




----------



## Mindful (Jan 6, 2020)




----------



## rylah (Jan 9, 2020)

*Hamas Official: "There are no Palestinian people.*
*We are Egyptian and Saudis"*

Have the Arab in Israel (so called "palestinians") managed to fool you to believe they are Natives in the land of Israel ?

And why they are so intimidated by History and facts ?

In a temper tantrum he could not keep his mouth shut but had to blurt out the truth: that the "Palestinian" people are a fabrication, an invention. There never existed a state called Palestine or a people called Palestinian. And there never existed an invasion of Palestinian land over a territory that belonged to the Jews over 1,000 years before Mohammed was even born.

The Palestine-Israeli conflict is about hate. Jew hate. In fact, it's about 1,400 years of antisemitism created by the Arabs. The Muslim faith demands that Muslims must hate jews and must dedicate themselves to kill Jews.

This deliberate effort to ethnic cleansing of the Jews by propaganda and lies have even been spread to the West by Arab money, and deliberate Arab propaganda put into our schools and media signed via the Cairo declaration that allowed Arabs to create a "positive impression" of Palestine to the West. Prior from this we were free from this propaganda.

The Arabs who now claim to be natives of the Holy Land have migrated to Palestine and invaded the land after 1917, from neighboring Arab countries, predominantly from areas now known as Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq.


----------



## rylah (Jan 9, 2020)




----------



## rylah (Jan 9, 2020)




----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 9, 2020)

rylah said:


>


Israeli bullshit, of course.

Alhambra Cinema - Jaffa - 1937, flying Palestinian flag


----------



## rylah (Jan 9, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



That's a flag of the *Arab Federation* and the Arabian *Kingdom of Hejaz* in 1920.
Even the flag is of another Arab country...says it all.

Q. So what does it tell us when people march under the flags of foreign countries?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 9, 2020)

It is amazing how hard people will work to delegitimize a people.  It seems to be quite often the product of a lot of hatred and bigotry.

All people start somewhere at some time.

Just like the Palestinians need to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, the Israeli's need to acknowledge the right of the Palestinian people to exist.  As a people.


----------



## rylah (Jan 9, 2020)

Coyote said:


> It is amazing how hard people will work to delegitimize a people.  It seems to be quite often the product of a lot of hatred and bigotry.
> 
> All people start somewhere at some time.
> 
> Just like the Palestinians need to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, the Israeli's need to acknowledge the right of the Palestinian people to exist.  As a people.


Hard work?
It's all in plain sight, Arabs with their useful idiot make most of the job anyway.

Face it, being a pro-Palestinian puts one into a position of inevitable embarrassment.
Being forced to defend a story based on boldly ridiculous lies, when facing simple facts that entirely ruin the whole charade, you're left to reserve to outright denial and logical fallacies, trying to look smart.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 10, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


----------



## rylah (Jan 11, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



That's the problem with your attitude - you deal with opinions rather than facts.
Then come Arabs and reveal how easy it is to fool useful idiots like you.


----------



## rylah (Jan 11, 2020)

*Ask Halawa: Did an Arab Palestine Exist? *

**


----------



## Coyote (Jan 11, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Opinions huh...like the meme you posted multiple times that Obama is a Muslim.  Dude..,your bias is showing not to mention your utter lack of integrity 

What exact span of time is required for a people to be acknowledged as a people?  

You work sooo hard to disenfranchise the Palestinians....it is obsessive.

Maybe memes are better suited to your level of discourse.


----------



## rylah (Jan 11, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I don't know,
how about we start at the 500 year mark,
AFTER the impostors learned to actually pronounce the name of the land they claim is theirs?

Pretty difficult to take you idiots seriously ...say with me "Bhaaalestine!"


----------



## rylah (Jan 11, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Reason is when you can't address the inconvenient facts,
and instead troll away with funnies in embarrassment?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 11, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



If you consider responding via memes to be "trolling" I suggest you monitor your own content.  Just saying.

You are intent on insisting that the Palestinians aren't a "real people".  When someone does that, and works SOOOO hard at it, I always wonder what their REAL agenda is?

What's the magical number of years when a people can finally be acknowledged to be a people?

My guess is, if they aren't a "real people" it's easy for "real people" like YOU to force then out, or, as you once put it - make them "guests" (read dhimmis" ) of "your nation" rather than citizens.

Is that why it is of the utmost importance to insist they aren't real?

Now go back to your trolling and irrational claims


----------



## rylah (Jan 11, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Now you're just boldly lying.
Are you actually capable of addressing any of the facts I've posted?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 11, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



You haven't provided any.  You've just posted your own trolling memes (while getting outraged when responded to in kind), and you made a bizarre claim that they some how can't be a "real people" because they can't pronounce "p" and that debunked semantical argument somehow bolsters your claim.

Why insist they aren't a real people?  Why is that so obessively important to you?  You are like the people who can't bring themselves to acknowledge the right of Jews to the place.  No difference.

Instead of arguing over whether or not they are a "real" people - they are now, they are here now and they aren't going away just to make it more convenient for you.  Just like Israel is an established nation and is not going to go away to make it convenient to to its detractors.

They are both real and here to stay, so *why is it so important to argue about whether or not Palestinians a "real" people that we have thread after thread devoted to it*?


----------



## rylah (Jan 11, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Indeed, it's pretty bizarre for Arabs to claim a land
the name of which they can't even pronounce properly...

Let me suggest you start donating lessons, so they play the role better,
who knows maybe then you'll look less like a complete idiot:

*Helping Arabic speakers with /p/ and /b/ sounds*


----------



## Coyote (Jan 11, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



You are simply repeating a talking point (debunked by another member in another thread) that has no merit in determining whether or not a people is "real" nor does it answer why you are obsessed over it.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 11, 2020)

Coyote said:


> What's the magical number of years when a people can finally be acknowledged to be a people?



Its not about years.  Its about definitions.


----------



## rylah (Jan 11, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You keep repeating"debunked" but can't provide any contrary facts.
What are you running from? Looking even more stupid?

Please show me the letter 'P' in the Arabic alphabet.
Arabs can't, you can't, and they don't even know what the name "Palestine" means,
yet claim it's..."theirs".

I bet they can't stop laughing seeing how you degenerates buy into what even their goats wouldn't take seriously.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 11, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



This whole thing got off to a slow start...  Of course Palestinian ORIGINS are Arab.. Maybe even the Christian Palestinians... The entire Arab world is organized by familial lines and tribes...  THAT'S what matters... But then again, like the Kurds, those familial lines and tribes get dispersed by boundary lines being redrawn by Western powers sipping tea....

I forgot the 3rd most important organization of Arabs in the Middle East and that is WHERE the tribes and family descendents came from.. This is reflected in the NAMING of each of their people..

IRONICALLY, the Jews claim as a people has the 1st two characteristics of tribe and family but not the locality...

Because of displacement and diaspora, this association was severely damaged... But nonetheless the claim to "being a people" of the Middle East is much the same for Jews and Arabs..

*So asking if the Palestinians are "a people" doesn't seem to have any bearing on their claim to any particular locality.. And I don't really understand the IMPORTANCE of determining if they are a "unified homogenous people... *

Many of the governance problems that the Palestinian have now and continually had since antiquity are based on differences in family lines and tribes and locations.. Today, there is still not a unified, cross-tribal alliance.. The Pali city centers don't cooperate very well with one another.. And the sad endings of their attempts to unify and work together have been evident time and time again...

I THINK what matters is some Arab tribes chose to live in the Holy Land long ago and THOSE folks are actual "Palestinians".. But all the people laying CLAIM to Israel as Palestine are not direct descendents of those original Arab settlers... 

Maybe someone who KNOWS the tribal origins of the majority tribal and familial lines in the majority of Palestine could figure out WHO has a "locality" claim to the land.. But there are no deeds or records that are gonna resolve anything that way...


----------



## Shusha (Jan 12, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> IRONICALLY, the Jews claim as a people has the 1st two characteristics of tribe and family but not the locality...



I pretty strongly disagree with you about the locality.  You seem to be arguing that if a family or tribe is forcibly displaced from their locality that they all claim to that locality, while also saying that a return to that locality does not reclaim that locality.

The Jewish people's locality to that land is impossible to dispute.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Please, show how that semantical magic you keep waving around makes them not a people.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What's the magical number of years when a people can finally be acknowledged to be a people?
> ...


Apparently it is about years.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


So...let’s get this straight, if we support the right of the Palestinians to identify as a people, just like any other people have the right to...we are the “degenerates”.  

Deja’s vous...what does that remind of...oh ya, those that deny Jews their rights to identify as a people.

I am going to ask this again but I expect the answer will be another deflection.  Why is it so important for to insist the Palestinians are not a real people that you must create thread after thread about it and derail other threads with it  “You” being a general “you” not you specifically.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Actually, that other member thought he debunked rylah's point, but he really didn't.  He equated the name of America with the name of Palestine.  There are many differences between these 2 cases:

1)  Americans have no problem pronouncing "America."
2)  America is actually the name of a continent, not a country.  The United States is the name of the country.
3)  America is not a foreign word, but is rather just a name.  "Amerigo" was one of the explorers who discovered the continent.  "Palestine", on the other hand, is taken from a foreign word to the Arabs, and it means "invaders," of all things.  Thus, they are calling themselves invaders, which is quite appropriate.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




It is your refusal to acknowledge that they were invented with a specific propaganda objective in mind that is the issue here. Your unwillingness to argue based upon that which is factual reveals your agenda.

 I know I have explained this to you at least 5 or 6 times in the past, yet you cling to your dishonesty.  The creation of this heretofore unknown group called "Palestinian" in the middle of the 20th century was a ruse aimed at inversing world perception in regards to power dynamics and thus elicit support from useful idiots on the left with a reflexive need to support the underdog.

 Before the cynical invention of this new group, the world understood this as a struggle between Arabs and Jews. In fact there is a letter by King Abdullah published in 1947 called "as the Arabs see the Jews" that contained the usual laundry list of Arab complaints, but not so much as one single mention of a Palestinian people.  There is a reason for that -- they had not been invented yet.

 When one understands the conflict as being between Arab and Jew, it is easy to see all the vast amount of land under Arab control, and all the vast resources they have. An honest person (which you are not) can also note that 900000 Jews were purged from Arab lands quite forcefully as a reaction to the 700000 Arabs who left Israel  -- most of whom did so by choice.

 The invention of this new group was just a cynical attempt at creating the notion that Arabs were the David in this struggle and Jews the Goliath so to get stupid people to support them.  They are just Arabs, however, less different from other Arabs than Texans are to New Yorkers.  Their invention lies in propaganda and nothing more.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 12, 2020)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > IRONICALLY, the Jews claim as a people has the 1st two characteristics of tribe and family but not the locality...
> ...



Maybe the Jewish claim to that locality is a bit stronger.. Because of biblical history.. And because ALL the tribes of Israel had a more CENTRAL alliance than Arab tribes and peoples and a more uniform religious hierarchy over history... *But "being a people" isn't a measure of claims to land..* The term Palestinians is more like the term Native American... It's an indigenous thing that doesn't tie the tribes together at all...  And like most other buzzwords, it's been abused to include folks that simply declare themselves Palestinian..  Much like the idea of me declaring to be a "non-binary, disabled Black man" for a couple months....   Sounds cool...

And Yes.. The tracing of roots to locality is immutable when that is IMPORTANT to "a people"... That's what I'm saying.. But you cannot simply exercise that right at will.  It takes world recognition and law to make that happen..

Palis would have SUCCEEDED at that by now IF they could unify enough to have REPRESENTATION that would prosecute the case for a "tribal homeland"... They've failed repeatedly to do that...

That's why I also say that Zionism was not an evil thing.. It's purpose WAS to make the case for a return to that locality.. And it was a fairly unified and recognized delegate by the MAJORITY of Jewish people.. SOMEONE has to speak for the cause... And it's not yahoos like Arafat or Hamas or "bleeding heart" Americans who simply DEMAND on behalf of the Palestinians...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> So...let’s get this straight, if we support the right of the Palestinians to identify as a people, just like any other people have the right to...we are the “degenerates”.



You or any other advocates don't have that power to make them a unified people... That's something THEY should discover as their weakness and the reason why they've failed a produce a unified govt or representatives to SPEAK for their cause... 

That's why the PA is still WITHHOLDING funds from Hamas in Gaza and they've been assasinating each other since the PA fizzled..  Because they are NOT "a people"... 

But as I said -- being a "people" shouldn't be a block for reclaiming land that was traditionally theirs..... Apparently, they would all just fight each other it as was the case when Israel vacated Gaza.. Some problem the Native Americans had deciding on which white boys they would fight with and trust...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 12, 2020)

There's a very similar thing going on RIGHT NOW with a "Kurdish Homeland".. Traditionally, they HAD one.. Now they dont.. American press and the majority of US leadership make it SOUND LIKE, all Kurds are the same.. But truth is -- they are RADICALLY different, politically and to some extent religiously... So THEY can't all get their act together to have a UNIFIED VOICE advocating for THAT cause..  

Might only be a couple generations hence that AMERICAN tribalism fits into the same sad dysfunctional anarchy..


----------



## Shusha (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



According to whom?  The only person asking about "magical number of years" is you.

rylah isn't claiming that years are the problem.  (At least I don't think he is).  He is pointing out that Arab Palestinians did not develop naturally as a distinct culture or a cohesive collection of separate but connected tribes.  He is pointing out that the Arab Palestinians were, in fact, intentionally invented to be a political tool in order to fight against and defeat the Jewish people.  And that this fact invalidates their existence as a "real" people.  

That seems to me to be a valid criticism.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 12, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




Thank you for that clarification.  If I understand you correctly, I agree.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 12, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> There's a very similar thing going on RIGHT NOW with a "Kurdish Homeland".. Traditionally, they HAD one.. Now they dont.. American press and the majority of US leadership make it SOUND LIKE, all Kurds are the same.. But truth is -- they are RADICALLY different, politically and to some extent religiously... So THEY can't all get their act together to have a UNIFIED VOICE advocating for THAT cause..
> 
> Might only be a couple generations hence that AMERICAN tribalism fits into the same sad dysfunctional anarchy..


Kurds came about naturally, however.

they weren't an intentional creation.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 12, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > There's a very similar thing going on RIGHT NOW with a "Kurdish Homeland".. Traditionally, they HAD one.. Now they dont.. American press and the majority of US leadership make it SOUND LIKE, all Kurds are the same.. But truth is -- they are RADICALLY different, politically and to some extent religiously... So THEY can't all get their act together to have a UNIFIED VOICE advocating for THAT cause..
> ...



Gotta score them points like American politics scores "diversity points" tho... 

They MAY BE unified as to ORIGIN -- but over time in divided and strange countries imposed by the West, they've lost a lot of "tribal and familial" identity.. And now -- their POLITICS and foreign allegiances divide them.. 

Politically they range from anarchist Commies bent on using force to full entrepreneurial Capitalists that embrace representative Democracy and Western values. .. That's a hard egg to uncrack.. 

And that's also a description of America today and where we're apparently heading.. So don't get too cocky about which "people" can identify and SURVIVE as a nation....


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



No.  He is not.  He is claiming they were invented  on a certain date and they cant possibly be a real people because the Arabic language does not pronounce P.  That is his argument.

How they came to be a real people does NOT invalidate their existence as a real people.  They existed prior to the Jewish domination of the region in the twentieth century.  They may have unified in opposition to that but that doesn’t make them any less a real people.  The whole argument echos that of those who deny the right of Israel to exist.

*So, again,I will ask.  WHY is it so vitally important to deny they are a people?*


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

One interesting and rational view.



Americans for Peace Now

Golda Meir’s suggestion, back in the late 1960s, that there is no Palestinian people was wrong and counterproductive. Repeating it today is wrong many times over, and does a terrible disservice to efforts to secure Israel's future through peace.

The starting point is this: it makes no difference whether Israelis, or Jews, or anyone else recognize the Palestinians as a people. The Palestinians view themselves as a distinct people, with deep ties to the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Israel and supporters of Israel can neither deny nor wish the Palestinians and their claims out of existence. That is the reality that must be accepted and addressed if there is ever going to be peace, security, and stability.

At the same time, Israelis and Jews should recognize the gross insincerity and disrespect involved in denying the Palestinians' identity, because we have experienced the same ugly denial. For years, extremists within and outside the Arab world have attacked the legitimacy of Israel as a state by attacking the Jewish claim to the land and attacking the legitimacy of Israelis as a national group. They have argued that Israelis are nothing but foreigners who came from the West, who should go back where they came from.

People of integrity - Jewish and non-Jewish - categorically reject and condemn such attacks on Israel. We point to Jewish historical and religious ties to the land, to the continual presence of Jews on the land throughout history, and to the well-established Jewish longing for Israel way before 1948. We insist on Israelis' right to self-determination and security. And we recognize the pain such attacks cause to Israelis and the threat these attacks represent to the very possibility of Israel-Arab peace.

Likewise, for decades there has been an effort among extremists in Israel and abroad to try to delegitimize the Palestinians as a people and delegitimize their right, as a people, to self-determination. These arguments are historically incorrect and insensitive. Worse, they are irrelevant to the current situation on the ground, and politically damaging to Israeli interests.

There is ample historical documentation showing that a separate local identity among Arabs living in Palestine started forming in the 16th and 17th century, and that a national Palestinian consciousness began crystallizing early in the 20th century, as anti-colonial movements took root around the world. This national consciousness transformed into a national movement and later into a national liberation movement, in large part as a result of the friction between the Palestinians and Zionism, the Jewish national self-determination movement.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Sorry, I completely disagree.  They are no moreinvaders than the Jews who immigrated from Europe.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > admonit said:
> ...


Why would you say Palestinian origins are Arab when they predated Arab conquests?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

Another provocative view:  The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

Do we we have a number of “invented” people running around the Middle East?

Unlike ANY OTHER conflict...the IP conflict is the only one in which we seem populate with peoples we insist were invented to achieve strategic nationalist aims.

Why don’t we simply except them as a people?  Will destroy narratives?  Alter rights?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Why don’t we simply except them as a people?



The word you are looking for is "accept", not except.

 I accept them as a people who were invented in the 1960s strictly for propaganda purposes.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Why don’t we simply except them as a people?
> ...


In other words, spelling Nazi crap aside, you don’t accept them as a people.

P.S.  spelling and grammar Nazis need to be extra accurate in their corrections in order to pull it off.  It is 1960’s not 1960s.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Actually, I oppose Nazi crap.  That's why I oppose them.  

 Once again, they were invented in the 1960s as a people, and I accept that. 

 As to your pronouncement that a decade can possess something, thus necessitating the apostrophe, you are once again incorrect.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 12, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...


Point taken, you might be right on the apostrophe.  However spelling Nazi is spelling Nazi, if you oppose them why engage in it?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Yours was not a spelling error so much as it was an inability to understand the difference between two different words.

  Yasser Arafat's uncle was a card carrying Nazi. He worked to exterminate Jews in the Balkans.  I oppose Nazis, whether German or Arab, and this opposition has nothing to do with your grammatical shortcomings.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Most of the Pali towns summaries that Rylah posted were very informative... It gives the founding of those settlements...  But a couple hundred years in Western time is maybe only 50 yrs in Holyland time... Because the  claims to "location" go back farther than any court or international body can really consider.. 

 And the only direction this can go is FARTHER back in "Holyland time to Biblical times.. So for purposes of having a traceable presence and stake in the territory in MODERN times, that enough time to say  those places have a traceable "Palestinian presence" that's "long enough" to make an argument in the present day world.. 

It's undeniable tho that a large fraction of folks identifying as Palis don't even have a case in terms of "Western time" lengths.. Also undeniable, that even the residents of Israel worry that some of their generous immigration policies may have contributed to accepting people who don't have a traceable history to the Jewish people. 

The country is too small and exerts too much energy just SUSTAINING ITS RIGHT TO EXIST... So it's understandable that they need to be somewhat selective in maintaining their purpose and identity.... 

Just like a Palestinian state would... But the difference is --- Israel IS capable of living in rough neighborhood..  A "Pali state" would be a mid-morning snack for an aggressor nation like Iran or a rogue extremist army....


----------



## Shusha (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Another provocative view:  The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia
> 
> Do we we have a number of “invented” people running around the Middle East?
> 
> ...



Please tell me you did not just bring Shlomo Sand into the conversation.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 12, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Please tell me you did not just bring Shlomo Sand into the conversation.




Where is Israel Shahak when we need him?!


----------



## Shusha (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> No.  He is not.  He is claiming they were invented  on a certain date and they cant possibly be a real people because the Arabic language does not pronounce P.  That is his argument.



rylah is perfectly capable of clarifying his thoughts on his own, so I will not presume to continue to answer for him. 

*BUT you MUST ask yourself why a "real" people would not have a name for their own land in their own native language.*

And then you might go back and respond to my point:

Arab Palestinians did not develop naturally as a distinct culture or a cohesive collection of separate but connected tribes. Arab Palestinians were, in fact, intentionally invented to be a political tool in order to fight against and defeat the Jewish people. And that this fact invalidates their existence as a "real" people.

That seems to me to be a valid criticism.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> How they came to be a real people does NOT invalidate their existence as a real people.



Doesn't it?  

How can we define "a people" without having an understanding of what that means and how one people are differentiated from another people?  For example, are the people of Nazareth a "real" people? How would we know if they are or if they are not?  How are they differentiated from Arab Palestinians?  Should they have rights and access to national sovereignty and self-determination?  What about the people of Galilee?  Are they a "real" people?  How would we know?  How are they differentiated from all other people?  Should they have rights and access to national self-determination?

What if the people of Judea and Samaria were to declare themselves a "real" people with history going back thousands of years?  Would they not gain the rights of sovereignty and self-determination in their homeland?  Surely, you would champion a State of Judea and Samaria in the West Bank, would you not?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 12, 2020)

Coyote said:


> *So, again,I will ask.  WHY is it so vitally important to deny they are a people?*



Well, from my POV, it's largely to prevent Arabs from usurping Jewish history, Jewish ancestry, Jewish monuments, Jewish religious figures, Jewish culture, and Jewish land.  

And then using that usurping of all things Jewish as reasons why the Jewish people shouldn't have rights to anything.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 12, 2020)

Of course Palestinians are a people. They call themselves Palestinians. Everyone else calls them Palestinians. They are called Palestinians because they are from Palestine.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Of course Palestinians are a people. They call themselves Palestinians. Everyone else calls them Palestinians. They are called Palestinians because they are from Palestine.



Actually, they’re Arab settler colonists from Egypt, Syria, etc. 

People from the “Bible Belt”, a loosely defined geographic area, are sometimes called “Bible Belters” but there is no “country of the Bible Belt”.

An Egyptian Arab-Moslem Terrorist invented a people and an invented national identity for those squatters back in the late 1960’s .


----------



## rylah (Jan 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Of course Palestinians are a people. They call themselves Palestinians. Everyone else calls them Palestinians. They are called Palestinians because they are from Palestine.



Who?
The royal tribe of Qatar?

Arabian Royal Tribes - Banu Tamimi

*Dynasties[edit]*

The Aghlabid dynasty
The Al Thani, ruling family of Qatar. (See House of Thani)
The Al ash-Sheikh family of the Grand Muftis of the Emirate of Diriyah, then the Emirate of Najd and now modern day Saudi Arabia (Religious Dynasty).


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Those are good points flac, but what do they have to with the points I made, with recognizing Palestinians as a people and spending si much energy denying that recognition?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > No.  He is not.  He is claiming they were invented  on a certain date and they cant possibly be a real people because the Arabic language does not pronounce P.  That is his argument.
> ...



I disagree.  Their national identity may have developed in response to Jewish control of their land, but they existed as a semi cohesive collection of tribes defined geographically and also linguistically with a dialect that contains elements of older non Arabic languages.

They are a people now, even if, in your view they were not originally.  Why work so hard to deny them that?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > *So, again,I will ask.  WHY is it so vitally important to deny they are a people?*
> ...


So you would deny a people their identity because you feel they will do to Jews what Jews are doing to them?  That makes no more sense than denying Jews their identity 

Every succeeding wave of people has usurped parts of preceding cultures.  I have never before heard that used as a pretext to deny them their identity.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




 Speaking of recognition, these sorts of conversations would be more productive if you could learn to recognize the truth. 

 The truth is that there were no people called "Palestinian" as we know them today prior to the middle part of the 20th century when they were encouraged to do so by an Egyptian whose uncle just happened to be a Nazi.  

The truth has been pointed out to you dozens, if not hundreds of times over the years, yet you continue with your crap. You can not use your manifest ignorance as an excuse as you are obviously lying by design.  Why?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

At this point I am seeing absolutely no difference between those who would deny Jews their rights to recognized as a people and those who deny Palestinians their rights to be recognized as a people


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > How they came to be a real people does NOT invalidate their existence as a real people.
> ...


Being g a people and rights of national sovereignty are two different things imo.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Another provocative view:  The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia
> ...


What?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 13, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Of course Palestinians are a people. They call themselves Palestinians. Everyone else calls them Palestinians. They are called Palestinians because they are from Palestine.
> ...




 I often find myself wondering what would happen If the Unites States were to have  attacked Canada when I was young and soon thereafter created a brand new people called "Mainahs" to try to create the impression that Canada was the more powerful entity at a certain flashpoint of contention?

 Would idiots today be insisting that these inhabitants of Maine were a distinct and valid people while claiming their peoplehood extended back in time long before their invention?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


 He's a crazy fuck who has renounced being Jewish among other things.  One thing he did get right, however, is that there was no Palestinian identity before they were invented in the middle part of the 20th century.  I find it amusingly ironic that you would reference him.


BTW -- you indicated that post 329 is funny to you.  Why do you think it is funny that you know you are lying?   Is that some sort of Islamic thing with you?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Please provide a link to your outrageous claim that Palestinian Arabic is a dialect that has elements of older, non-Arabic languages.  
Hebrew, however, is the national language of no other country besides Israel.


----------



## jillian (Jan 13, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...


Palestinians are Jordanian bedouins that Jordan doesn’t want


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Jewish control of THEIR land?!  

See, that is exactly how their identity developed: by creating the false idea that the land, in its entirety, was exclusively Arab land rather than a land which had been *shared with the Jewish people *for 1400 years since the land was Arabized.  

Those linguistic elements of older non-Arabic languages are Hebrew and Aramaic words borrowed from the previous, existing, indigenous peoples of that territory because they lived amongst people who continued to use Hebrew and Aramaic.  (They also have borrowed words from Greek, French and English).


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



One of the points is -- they are NOT a united or organized people who can agree on governance or representation... So does it REALLY MATTER? 

It's not something that can get wrenched from afar... They are tribal, that do value their familial and place roots, but they can't even AGREE amongst themselves "who is a Palestinian"...  

Look at the treatment from the govt of Jordan.. The earliest refugees who fled the land after the creation of Israel were largely absorbed and assimilated as Jordanians.. The later they ARRIVED, the more they were shuffled off to make-shift towns and camps... Do the "early Palis" in Jordan worry about this abuse as much as YOU do??? 

Ironically, it's probably that early wave of refugees who have the highest claim as "Palestinians"... But the term has been abused by the ability to "self-declare one's self" as a Palestinian... 

And with no unified movement amongst themselves,,  I don't think WE can guess as to who is and who is not..

It would be like 20 years hence in California when the state becomes majority Hispanic, trying to sort out claims to citizenship when MILLIONS of the people living there came in illegally... Not ALL of them from any one country... 

As far as Jewish claims to be "a people", those claims have never changed, was recognized BEFORE the creation of Israel and there's general INTERNAL agreement amongst the clan who belongs and who does not... I taught my 13/15 yr olds in Sunday School, to explain "the Jews" as a people.. Not a religion, not a race, not bound by where they currently claim citizenship... 

Not all Palestinians would choose to live within Israel.. Although the West Bank Palis enjoy a much higher standard of living than the majority OUTSIDE of the West Bank, but choosing to remain in the Mid East. The majority of Jews chose not to return to Israel.. It doesn't matter.,. We are one people... 

This is an exercise in proving biblical claims actually.. Not a rejection of the fact that Palestinian refugees are getting screwed in the many places they now live...


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> At this point I am seeing absolutely no difference between those who would deny Jews their rights to recognized as a people and those who deny Palestinians their rights to be recognized as a people



See post above.. Jews have ALWAYS been a unified people.. Even under horrid conditions in diaspora.. 

*Being a "people" confers no rights or status..* You can't deprive "a people" of their own identity.. But when a people want a homeland -- they have to step up and unify and HAVE representation that speaks for ALL of them.. 

THEN -- they can pursue rights and status...


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> So you would deny a people their identity because you feel they will do to Jews what Jews are doing to them?  That makes no more sense than denying Jews their identity


Seriously?  "What the Jews are doing to them?"  Are the Jews claiming Mecca as a Jewish holy site?  Are the Jews claiming that Mohammed was a Jew?

You are, again, falling into your usual trap that everything is equivalent.  It is not.

The Arab Palestinians are claiming that ALL of the history of the territory is THEIRS.  Not Jewish.  Theirs. Arab. That the Temple Mount is theirs.  That the holy burial sites are theirs.  That the city of David is theirs.  That Jewish historical figures are theirs.  They are erasing Jewish history and claiming for themselves.  They complain of "Judaizing" places like Jerusalem and Hebron.  They rename historical places.  They tear up ancient sites and then claim that the ancient site never existed.  They destroy every historical building and then claim Jews never lived in that place.  

The Arab Palestinians insist that the Jewish people are not REALLY the Jewish people, because all the "real"TM Jews were dispersed and disappeared and all the modern Jews are "fake" Jews who were invented a couple hundred years ago.  You know, just like you did when you brought up Shlomo Sand.  

Those of us arguing the other side do not deny the identity of the Arab Palestinian people.  We simply correct the above errors and acknowledge the Arab Palestinian people for what they are:  a mix of local, indigenous peoples and Arab colonizers who arrived several hundreds of years ago and who coalesced into a national, political group about 70 years ago as a response to Jewish return and reclamation of the Jewish homeland.  

We don't deny that the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque are Arab Muslim shrines.  We don't deny the history of Arabs in the territory.  

There is no equivalence here.




> Every succeeding wave of people has usurped parts of preceding cultures.


Does that make it morally correct?  Should the Jewish Israelis turn the Dome and the Mosque into synagogues?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





> Being g a people and rights of national sovereignty are two different things imo.




There ya go... Been trying to tell you that...  

You figured out how to say it in less than my 150 words..  So -- I ask you AGAIN -- does it matter if they ARE a people if they can't organize for representation and governance?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Being g a people and rights of national sovereignty are two different things imo.



We agree.

But ask yourself why.  Why are those two things different?  

And why, then, is it so important to recognize Arab Palestinians are a "real people"?  What is the definition and what is the point?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Jewish control of THEIR land?!
> 
> .




Coyote promotes the Islamist objective in all things and this is a classic Islamic supremacist notion.  Once an area is considered Dar al Islam rather than Dar al Harb, it remains that way.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Jewish control of THEIR land?!
> ...




Yep.  One easy way to disappear the Jews is to pretend that they haven't been an indigenous presence for thousands of years and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




its all Arab land.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Yes.  A war was fought.  The Jewish side decisively won, and control the territory.  Were it the other other way around I would saying Arab control of their (Jews) land.  It is a fact the lan . Belongs to both peoples.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The land belongs to Israel.

The lion's share of the original Mandate of Palestine already belongs to Jordan.

It has been divided between the two groups with Arabs getting 78%.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


And the people come with it.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

It's interesting the intensity and dedication there is towards insisting, even demanding that the Palestinians are not a people.  That they were "invented" and even terming it that way is itself a dismissal and negation of them and any identity they are attempting to forge.

I think this often skirts the real questions:

What is "a people"?
Who gets to decide whether or not they are a "people"?
At what point do they become a "people"?  

Do they need a unique culture (and what "defines" a unique culture"?)

Do they need a unique language?

Do they have to have had a nation?

I often ask "what is the magical timeline in which they can become a people" because one of the many arguments thrown against the Palestinians is that they were "invented" in 1967.  But they weren't really.  They were there and they were already coalescing into their own identity, separate from the other Arab cultures before that.

I think this excerpt says it well, although it's referring to nationalist aspirations.

Who Are The Palestinians? | My Jewish Learning
_The earliest imaginings of a separate Palestinian national identity are traceable to the mid-19th century, perhaps partly in response to renewed Western interest in the “Holy Land.” As early as 1919, the first “Arab Palestinian Congress” called for Palestinian unity and independence, albeit still understanding Palestine as part of “Greater Syria.”

But it is the year 1948 — the time of naqba, or catastrophe, as Palestinian Arabs commonly call it– that marks the crucial watershed in the process of Palestinian nation-building. During Israel’s War of Independence against invading Arab armies, some 600,000 Arabs were dispossessed from their homes and became refugees. Not only individuals but embedded social patterns and relationships were uprooted, causing traumatic societal and cultural discontinuities. A society that had been centered on family, locality and traditional social patterns felt itself shattered.

Worse, the same predicament befell it again less than 20 years later in the aftermath of the Six‑Day War, which created many new refugees and saw the West Bank and Gaza Strip transferred from culturally cognate Jordanian‑Arab control to unfamiliar Israeli‑Jewish rule.

Throughout the Palestinian world, and especially in the refugee camps of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Gaza and the West Bank, as the established social classes and patterns were unexpectedly shaken up together, a new social essence began to ferment, with the old local and communal affiliations becoming transmuted into a national one by a sense of shared history, suffering and hope.

Since 1967, the Arabs of Palestine have increasingly insisted on a separate identity for themselves.  Even many Israeli Arabs, torn by ethnic loyalties and perhaps radicalized by decades of ethnic conflict, now routinely refer to themselves as “Palestinians with Israeli citizenship.”_​

What you have is people, with long ties to a region, descended from the original and conquering cultures of the region coalescing into a distinct identity defined through catastrophe.  That is "a people".  And it is not an unnatural evolution.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Yes.  A war was fought.  The Jewish side decisively won, and control the territory.  Were it the other other way around I would saying Arab control of their (Jews) land.  It is a fact the lan . Belongs to both peoples.



If the land belongs to both peoples it is not Arab land and should not be described as such. 

Also, interesting that you use such passive language.  "A war was fought".  Um.  No.  The united Arabs launched a war to prevent Jewish sovereignty.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Yes.  A war was fought.  The Jewish side decisively won, and control the territory.  Were it the other other way around I would saying Arab control of their (Jews) land.  It is a fact the lan . Belongs to both peoples.
> ...



It's passive because it was not entirely one sided conflict.  Also - I said "their" land.  "Their" as in the people who were living there on it at the time.   

So...who's land should we refer to it as?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> It's passive because it was not entirely one sided conflict.


Its passive because you don't want to assign responsibility where it is merited.  



> So...who's land should we refer to it as?


The entire Mandate of Palestine is land which belongs to both the Jewish people and certain Arab people.  You've already said so yourself.  The only thing that is disputed is the boundary between the two.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It's passive because it was not entirely one sided conflict.
> ...



No.  It's because it was a complex conflict, and I'm not going to simply it down into the Arabs attacked Israel (for example there was historical evidence that Israel also was provoking conflict) - that doesn't absolve the Arabs (and, they lost, so they got what they deserved) but it's not as black and white as the winner's narrative likes to paint it.  So I stand by what I said.



> > So...who's land should we refer to it as?
> 
> 
> The entire Mandate of Palestine is land which belongs to both the Jewish people and certain Arab people.  You've already said so yourself.  The only thing that is disputed is the boundary between the two.



Then why are we arguing?  That is essentially what I meant.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



They are a people. They are Arabs, no different than any other Arabs, but Arabs are absolutely a people.


----------



## DGS49 (Jan 13, 2020)

To understand whether the Palestinians are a "real people," imagine the following:

The Mormons in Utah decide that they want to secede from the U.S., and form their own country.  THey declare their independence and petition the U.N, to get some level of recognition.  They fortify the "state" borders with militia.  The U.S. government refuses to acknowledge the secession, but does not try to enforce U.S. sovereignty with military force, not wanting to kill a bunch of Mormons for political reasons.  The standoff remains in place for years.

But there are tens of thousands of non-Mormon Americans still living in Utah, who want nothing to do with the new State/Government, and they live there in protest.

Are they a People, or are they just a bunch of Americans who just happened to be living in Utah when independence was declared?

Are Palestinians a "People," or are they just a gang of generic Arabs who happened to be living in that area when the State of Israel was declared?  I say the latter.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

;'l


DGS49 said:


> To understand whether the Palestinians are a "real people," imagine the following:
> 
> The Mormons in Utah decide that they want to secede from the U.S., and form their own country.  THey declare their independence and petition the U.N, to get some level of recognition.  They fortify the "state" borders with militia.  The U.S. government refuses to acknowledge the secession, but does not try to enforce U.S. sovereignty with military force, not wanting to kill a bunch of Mormons for political reasons.  The standoff remains in place for years.
> 
> ...




Who's to say Mormans aren't a people?

What defines a people?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> No.  It's because it was a complex conflict, and I'm not going to simply it down into the Arabs attacked Israel (for example there was historical evidence that Israel also was provoking conflict)



Really?  We begin with the premise that both peoples have rights to part of that territory.  The Arab position was "no Jewish sovereignty/only Arab sovereignty".  The Jewish position was shared sovereignty. Please describe for me the provocation committed by Israel.  Be precise.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > No.  It's because it was a complex conflict, and I'm not going to simply it down into the Arabs attacked Israel (for example there was historical evidence that Israel also was provoking conflict)
> ...



I don't want to derail the thread - so I'll say this, and leave it (because this doesn't accurately describe the tensions going on at the time either):_ "The war began on June 5, 1967, when Israel launched a preemptive assault against the Egyptian and Syrian air forces." Six-Day War | Causes & Summary_


----------



## Coyote (Jan 13, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...




Yes...it does.  Because it's identity. An identity that recognizes a shared culture, heritage, and if they can get their act together - a future.  Denying it is denying THEIR right to an identity, history, a being.  And that is what this is all about isn't?  When you deny a people their identity, you erase them.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I don't want to derail the thread - so I'll say this, and leave it (because this doesn't accurately describe the tensions going on at the time either):_ "The war began on June 5, 1967, when Israel launched a preemptive assault against the Egyptian and Syrian air forces." Six-Day War | Causes & Summary_



OMG.  Really?  So with the premise of BOTH peoples having a valid claim to part of the territory, and in the context of the interference of Arabs NOT PART OF THAT CLAIM, with Jordan effectively annexing territory to which it did NOT have claim, and with Syria and Egypt (also Iraq and Lebanon) making threats and backing up those threats with military preparations ...

you label Israel as the one who is provocative?!??!?!!


You might want to look up the difference between provocative and preemptive.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Then why are we arguing?  That is essentially what I meant.



We are arguing because you didn't say "shared land" or "disputed land".  You said "their land", in the context of Arab Palestinians.  In future, if you mean shared land or disputed land you need to specify that.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I think this often skirts the real questions:
> 
> What is "a people"?
> Who gets to decide whether or not they are a "people"?
> ...



I'll take a stab at those questions, if you will.

​


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

Coyote said:


> What is "a people"?


A "people" is a cohesive group of individuals who self-identify and can be distinguished in point of fact from other groups through measurable traits or factors.  Those traits have traditionally included culture, language, religious beliefs, geographic locality, ceremony and ritual, a system of laws, worldview, specific ceremonial practices, system of myths and legends, connection to monuments and antiquities, political views or aspirations, tribal and familial relationships and probably a few things I've missed.  A "people" typically has a number of these different traits and can be readily distinguished from others, even if they may share some similar traits.  



> Who gets to decide whether or not they are a "people"?


Tough question. 

In the absence of malice, I'd say that only the people can decide if they are different from all other people.  

That said, malice exists and thus an objective standard would be a reasonable starting place.

And that said, recognition is also a factor, in that if there is no way for a reasonable person to distinguish between your people and another people...um....shrug.



> At what point do they become a "people"?


When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.



> Do they need a unique culture


Depends on what they "need" it for.  What's the purpose of being a "people"?



> (and what "defines" a unique culture"?)


Language.  Ceremonial practices.  Life event practices.  Celebrations.  Holidays.  Religious practices.  System of laws.  Special diets.  Distinctive clothing.  Rituals and ritual objects.  Myths and stories.  Moral precepts.  Probably some I've missed.  



> Do they need a unique language?


As an objective requirement?  No.  They very often do, however.  Its a definitive marker, imo.



> Do they have to have had a nation?


As an objective requirement, in the modern sense?  No.  This presumes that new cultures and "peoples" can not come into being which is sort of ridiculous.  On the other hand, most of today's "peoples" do actually have a some sort of history as a self-governing entity.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2020)

RE: [URL='http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/23861721/']Are the Palestinians a real people?[/URL]
⁜→ Shusha,  Coyote, et al,

The confusion here, IMO, is that the issue of "claim" to the territory is maybe inappropriate.



Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to derail the thread - so I'll say this, and leave it (because this doesn't accurately describe the tensions going on at the time either):_ "The war began on June 5, 1967, when Israel launched a preemptive assault against the Egyptian and Syrian air forces." Six-Day War | Causes & Summary_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Like many territorial disputes, someone has control and someone does not have control of the territory.  

In the case of the territories in dispute between the Israelis _(of 1947 and 1967)_ and the Arab Palestinians _(from any of the perspectives 1966, 1974, 1988 or 2012)_ each have a *"legal complaint"* which has not been dealt with under the Para 1(2) Subpara 2, on the matter of settlement of their international disputes by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements or other peaceful means of their choice. In seeking such a settlement the parties shall agree upon such peaceful means as may be appropriate to the circumstances and nature of the dispute.   Nor have the Arab Palestinians many any effort (whatsoever) to exercise Article XV • Resolution of Disputes, agree to under A/48/486 S/26560 DOP Interim Self-Government Arrangements  •  OSLO I  • 11 October 1993. 

It should also be interesting to note that Mahmoud Abbas, signed on behalf of the PalestineLiberation Organization (PLO) _(sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people)_.  

_

_
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (Jan 13, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Are the Palestinians a real people?
> ⁜→ Shusha,  Coyote, et al,
> 
> The confusion here, IMO, is that the issue of "claim" to the territory is maybe inappropriate.
> ...



There is no context in which Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq or Lebanon had a claim to the territory.  Therefore, any actions made by Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq or Lebanon is, by definition, provocative.  And any response by Israel is, by definition, preemptive.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What is "a people"?
> ...





Shusha said:


> When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.


Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.

Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.  (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course.  Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.)  Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up.  Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF.  I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen.  He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...





ForeverYoung436 said:


> Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.


Those are terms of occupation.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I was responding to your own definition.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


People born in the "Bible Belt" or in Appalachia are not citizens of the Bible Belt or Appalachia. 

So, no. You're not making a rational argument.


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


----------



## Hollie (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



*List of all birthplaces and languages of Muslims in Jerusalem in 1931:*

Syria
Transiordan
Cyprus
Egypt
Hejaz-Nejd
Iraq
Yemen
Persia
Turkey
Indian Continent
Far Eastern Asia
Algeria
Morocco
Tripoli
Tunis
France
Greece
Spain
United Kingdom
U.S.S.R.
U.S.A.
Central & South
America
Australia

The whole myth about "born in Bhaalestine" is just propaganda for the weak minded.
Just a mixed multitude of pilgrims, nomadic tribes and work migrants who happened to move through the land from everywhere.

That's why the definitions are so minimal to be included in "the Bhaalestinians" - 
2 years residence in prior to 1948 and you're a lucky recipient of the most privileged generational refugee scheme fund.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Well, Tinmore's argument makes some kind of sense if the ppl from the West Bank have Palestinian passports.  There's no such thing as a Bible Belt passport.  I'll do some research on this point and get back to you.


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)




----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Ok, I just checked out Wikipedia on this issue.  Since 1995, residents of the West Bank have been issued Palestinian Authority passports.  Residents of Israel proper, of course, have Israeli passports.  So if there is a Palestinian ppl, then they are confined to the West Bank (and Gaza, I suppose).


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

Prior to that they were publicly declaring their submission to the rule of Arabian King of Mecca.

Arabs did not culturally appropriate the word until 1964 when it was deemed unacceptable for Arabs to continue their imperialist colonial ambitions.

The scheme couldn't be more in your face.


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









Indeed, those who always talk about occupation, 
are the external military force.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

rylah said:


> Prior to that they were publicly declaring their submission to the rule of Arabian King of Mecca.
> 
> Arabs did not culturally appropriate the word until 1964 when it was deemed unacceptable for Arabs to continue their imperialist colonial ambitions.
> 
> The scheme couldn't be more in your face.



My Hebrew is not as good as rylah's, of course, but what Arafart is saying (in Hebrew subtitles) is this:  "We want to establish one Arab state--from Morocco to Yemen."


----------



## Hollie (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Well, it depends on the boundaries of Areas A, B and C, and on whether Oslo is dead or not.


----------



## admonit (Jan 14, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Oslo was dead from the beginning.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


What part of Palestine is not controlled by foreign military?


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



28% under the control of the Jewish Nation,
only one legitimate control according to international law.


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

*The Egyptians - Masarwa clan*

The Masarwa clan (in Arabic : Masarwa , in Hebrew transliterated from Mazarwa ) is one of the largest Arab families in Israel. *The name of the clan preserves its Egyptian origin*.

*History*
The geographical proximity and the fact that the Land of Israel was for centuries under a regime centered in Egypt led to the almost permanent migration of peasants and Bedouins from Egypt to the Land of Israel. *Beginning in the 18th century , this immigration increased, culminating in the days of Ibrahim Pasha, who conquered Palestine in 1831 and ruled it until 1840 . Many of his soldiers had deserted and remained in the country, and general immigration had increased since his rule.* During the British Mandate many workers were brought from Egypt and some remained in Israel. The rise in the standard of living of the Arabs in the country also had a great influence on the Egyptian fellahs from the delta region, who suffered from great poverty and overcrowding.

*The Egyptian immigrants dispersed throughout the country, but mainly concentrated between Tulkarm and Gaza. *Some of the names of the villages and the family names of the Arabs in the country testify to the Egyptian origin or hint at a certain place of origin in Egypt. According to Yaakov Shimoni, this group is the largest of the foreign minorities among Muslims in Israel. [1] [2]


----------



## José (Jan 14, 2020)

*GOLDA AND JOSÉ
*​Peace will come when the arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

*Golda Meir*

Peace will come when America will love her skyscrappers (and the americans inside them) more than she loves jewish racism in Palestine.

*José*


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 14, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What is "a people"?
> ...





......and, of course, their sense of peoplehood arose naturally over time rather than springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.

 The incredibly dishonest Islamist will never admit this, however.  Truth, here, runs counter to her subversive agenda.


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

José said:


> *GOLDA AND JOSÉ
> *​Peace will come when the arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
> 
> *Golda Meir*
> ...



Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe 
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 14, 2020)

rylah said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > *GOLDA AND JOSÉ
> ...


Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane hatred of being the haters.  Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.


----------



## admonit (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Palestine? Where is it?


----------



## Hollie (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Wben you write "Palestine", you fail to identity the soverign territory of such a place. 

What foreign military controls soverign territory of a place you can't identify?


----------



## José (Jan 14, 2020)

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe 
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain




Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane 
hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason 
enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.





​Let's establish a clear distinction here:

The government of the United States and the american people.

The 3000 innocent american civilians who perished in 2001 were completely innocent and didn't do anything to deserve their horrendous fate.

But the american government, America as a tribe, as a country, as a nation-state is a whole different story.

America spent the last 70 years providing the weapons that murder the palestinian people like for example Apache helicopters this palestinian refugee fighting for his right to return to Yibna referred to:




​The american civilians didn't deserve to die but their country fully deserved the punishment.

Now Rylah or Dogmaphobe can reply:

*José, can you really separate the just punishment inflicted on America from the unjust punishment inflicted on those 3000 americans?*

*Aren't the two punishments inextricably intertwined?*

This would be an excellent reply to which I don't have a good answer let alone an excellent one...

Or maybe I do...

The two punishments can't realy be separated at all.

And that's precisely why I feel kind of bad when I make these references to 9-11.

The country deserved the punishment it received and much more...

I personally believe 10 skyscrappers would be a just punishment for America's pornographic financing of the murder of palestinians refugees.

But the 3000 american civilians definitely didn't deserve to have a single broken nail.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



All of what the international community recognizes to be a part of Israel proper.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 14, 2020)

José said:


> Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.
> 
> Maybe peace comes to Europe
> when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.
> ...


^^^^^ Message board gee-had.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

José said:


> Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.
> 
> Maybe peace comes to Europe
> when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.
> ...



The only ones responsible for 9-11 were those extreme Muslim terrorists.  None of those sick Muslim terrorists were even Palestinian.  I watched that monster Osama's video at the time, and he used Israel as only one out of 4 or 5 excuses for that horrendous act.  Why don't you stop fixating on Israel, Jose, and worry about Catalonia instead.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

José said:


> Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.
> 
> Maybe peace comes to Europe
> when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.
> ...



You never addressed rylah's question about leading by example.  Did you even read the article he posted?  When is Spain going to grant citizenship to the descendants of the Muslims she expelled during the Inquisition?  What about the right of return?  Let's see how much you like living as a dhimmi under Sharia law.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 14, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.
> ...



Btw, if you answer my post, can you try to do so without putting up my avatar?  I know what it looks like.  Just press the "post reply" button.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > José said:
> ...


Jewish people are no different than any other people when it comes racism, bigotry or any of a number petty or major hatreds.  They are just people, good and bad and everything in between. Jews can be racist. Blacks can racist.  It is just another kind of tribalism usually hidden under a thin veneer of nationalism.  The people I admire are those who rise above it and see the commonality in all of us.

I don't understand those who seek to elevate them to a higher pedestal any more than I understand those who denigrate them to a lower level.  It comes off rather patronizing.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.
> 
> Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.



First, that is not true.  Palestinian citizenship is not _jus soli, _nor was citizenship granted based on birthplace.  Also, this is solely a political designation.  Which is fine but doesn't necessarily constitute "a people"


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Then why are we arguing?  That is essentially what I meant.
> ...


Oh for heaven's sake.  I wish you were as picky when team Israel claims it as Jewish land.  No "their" arguments then.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 14, 2020)

José said:


> Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.
> 
> Maybe peace comes to Europe
> when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.
> ...


Well, that's one ringing endorsement for terrorism.



Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Yes, Jews can be racist.


Only a complete subhuman would accuse them of such for wanting to defend themselves against genocidal maniacs, however.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2020)

rylah said:


> Prior to that they were publicly declaring their submission to the rule of Arabian King of Mecca.
> 
> Arabs did not culturally appropriate the word until 1964 when it was deemed unacceptable for Arabs to continue their imperialist colonial ambitions.
> 
> The scheme couldn't be more in your face.




It is still common for Arab Palestinians to claim they are no different from Jordanians and Syrians.  That they are all one people.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> ...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.



Existence predicated on eliminating another's sovereignty is certainly sketchy and I agree, a disqualification.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



You miss my point.  Their arguments are consistent with their beliefs.  Just as Tinmore's daily referral to Palestinian land is consistent with his beliefs.

But if you and I are going to continue to present ourselves as the only two people on this entire board who see the territory as *shared* land it is incumbent upon us to be consistent in our use of language. 

I called you out because I want to know if you really believe that the territory is "Arab land" or "Palestinian land".  Are you misrepresenting your beliefs?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 14, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > ...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
> ...


Also, they were invented in order to take advantage of all the familiar antisemit


Shusha said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > ...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
> ...




 Not only that, but Pallywood propaganda utilizes all the classic anti-Semitic canards from the Nazi era. That is why it was so essential to create this new "Palestinian" people to act as victim to the powerful and manipulative Jew forever working behind the scenes. Change the word Jew to Israel, and spin those tales of wagging the dog, sneaky Jews getting America to do their bidding, undue control and all the rest of the familiar themes.  The Arabs in the region learned well from their years aligned with the Nazis and the casual Pallywood supporter todays feels perfectly comfortable repeating them.

 For instance, here is a comment from a few Months ago accusing Jews of manipulating Muslims to kill Christians.  It might as well have been lifted directly from the Protocols or Mein Kampf.   I would suggest you pay close attention to who it was inspired enough to proclaim it a winner and soon thereafter agreed that it is a FACT that Jews are doing this. 

Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 14, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I just told you that NO ONE can deny anyone their identity... Even if I choose to identify as a spotted owl or a unicorn.... 

THat's why this doesn't matter... 

Now folks over history HAVE been deprived of their religion or political views or even their voice in total.. Been deprived of their FREEDOM which is even worse.. But writing a law taking away an identity, never made a diff in the struggles..


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Let's clear something up.

First of all tribalism and nationalism don't equal racism.
This is more an argument between globalist universalism and individualist particularism.

Very different attitudes.
The univeralist approach is globalist, imperialist.
While nationalism and tribalism are natural expressions of distinct communities aiming at preserving specific their specifically defined culture, and usually minorities, in modern terms - preservation of unique cultural source "as a trust of civilization"

Racism on the other hand is on the universalist side, viewing groups of nations as a supreme group seeking imperialist domination of wide regions.

The US and Israel are unique civilizations in this context.
For comparison, the US is not fundamentally particulaist, still an individualist society.
On the other hand the Russian Federation has a national church, and it's a collectivist society.


All versions of Arab nationalism, are strictly collectivist, with imperialist aims at achieving supremacy and domination of vast regions that span several continents, outside its particular cultural origin.Arab nationalism is the archetype of collectivist imperialism at its full force, and aside from reaching regional domination - has been in decline at the expense of all the decimated indigenous minorities.

Israel and the US are unique countries in this context, that they are both individualist,
in the range of it most healthy contrast and relevancy for human development.
Israel is as successful archetype of particularist individualism, and the US of more universalist individualism.


----------



## rylah (Jan 14, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



When doctors deal with unhealthy individuals, especially those who threaten to kill themselves,
are not playing into identity games when time comes to receive medicine.

Johnny is prescribed Johnnie's medicine,
even if he now calls himself the woman he murdered...


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

I didn't answer this earlier because I was on my phone during my lunch half hour and I feel you deserve a better answer then a snark - thank you for a serious reply! 



Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What is "a people"?
> ...




I agree.  That is a great definition.  I would add to your list of traits - a shared national history that unites the group as one group and begins the process of separation into a different “people”.  In my opinion that can be a turning point in separating a group of people out of a larger group.  Much as genetic bottlenecks through geographical barriers can create new species, a similar thing can happen to separate one group from a larger culture and create a new one.  In that sense it is an organic evolution of a people.





> > Who gets to decide whether or not they are a "people"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





First: is the “malice” malice?  IS there malice and is it entirely where you seem to want to place it?


Here are the questions.


Is there a group of people disenfranchised from the nationalist movements playing out around them?  Jews…Pan-Arabs….?  


Is there a group of people who see themselves as losing out in this?


What is the malice in their choosing to express their identity and solidarity (which, I might add began before they were supposedly “invented”?


Why is it ok for Jews and other Arabs to express their national identity but not Palestinians?  Why is it “malice” when applied to Palestinian identity?  I do think that the idea of Jewish nationalism is a 19th/20th century phenomenum  - unless you can make the argument otherwise.  Before then they were a persecuted religious group.




> > At what point do they become a "people"?
> 
> 
> 
> When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.




It seems to me that a shared unique history that binds them is sufficient.




> > Do they need a unique culture
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on what they "need" it for.  What's the purpose of being a "people"?




Does there have to be a “purpose”?





> > (and what "defines" a unique culture"?)
> 
> 
> 
> Language.  Ceremonial practices.  Life event practices.  Celebrations.  Holidays.  Religious practices.  System of laws.  Special diets.  Distinctive clothing.  Rituals and ritual objects.  Myths and stories.  Moral precepts.  Probably some I've missed.




I agree, and agree likely there are other things.  I believe the Palestinians meet some of those requirements:   myths and stories, a shared history  Naqba, life and cultural changes within refugee camps.  It might not be centuries old but if there is no magical date or time frame, then I think these would qualify to separate them as a their own entity.




> > Do they need a unique language?
> 
> 
> 
> As an objective requirement?  No.  They very often do, however.  Its a definitive marker, imo.




Agree.  Though from an anthropological view point, language separation comes later in the process of becoming a people. 




> > Do they have to have had a nation?
> 
> 
> 
> As an objective requirement, in the modern sense?  No.  This presumes that new cultures and "peoples" can not come into being which is sort of ridiculous.  On the other hand, most of today's "peoples" do actually have a some sort of history as a self-governing entity.


[/quote]


Thank you!  I’m so happy to hear this because I’m so sick of the constant refrain of “what nation existed” blah blah blah.


 A new people is always coming into being.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Citizenship is a function of state - not of being "a people".


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > ...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
> ...



And is that all you think it is Shusha?  

I think it is more than that and narrowing  existence to that is pretty low.

The Palestinians, whether you agree with their view or not saw their existence at stake under Jewish sovereignty.

You can argue it, but that is their view.  And to a degree it is justified by the refusal of Israeli Jews to allow them (not their hundreds of descendants) but those who originally fled from the ravages of war - to return.  That was followed by very unjust absentee landowner laws (ya, I know, we don't agree on that either  ).  It's their perspective.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.
> ...



Weird.

For one brief moment we kind a agree.  I'll savor its brevity.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

If we can discuss it civily .... I'm happy to clear it up.  Otherwise. not so much.




rylah said:


> Let's clear something up.
> 
> 
> First of all tribalism and nationalism don't equal racism.
> ...




I’m going to argue against this. (I’m sure that doesn’t shock you).


Tribalism and nationalism depend on a model based on exclusiveness, not inclusiveness.


There is “us” and there is “the other”.


Racism is a direct reflection of “the other” (the “other” is that group who is a different race, religion, ethnicity or sexuality).  Racism is just a very easy marker of “the other”.


The universalist approach (as I understand it) is to increase inclusion of who is defined as “us”, and while it means a greater role for the state in government it also is inclined to give greater protections to minorities (typically “the other”.


I see tribalism and nationalism as a dangerous narrowing of the definition of “us” and “not us”.





> The US and Israel are unique civilizations in this context.
> 
> For comparison, the US is not fundamentally particulaist, still an individualist society.
> 
> On the other hand the Russian Federation has a national church, and it's a collectivist society.




I don’t think “collectivist” is relevant here….at least I am not seeing it.  The Russian Federation is less “collectivist” than autocratic and where once communism tried to erase religion - now religion is stepping in to fill the void.  




> All versions of Arab nationalism, are strictly collectivist, with imperialist aims at achieving supremacy and domination of vast regions that span several continents, outside its particular cultural origin.Arab nationalism is the archetype of collectivist imperialism at its full force, and aside from reaching regional domination - has been in decline at the expense of all the decimated indigenous minorities.




I don’t see that.  Maybe we define things differently.  I see Arab nationalism as more along autocratic and nationalist lines.  Collectivist implies state control through a democratic process.  The US is to an extent collectivist as are many western nations that have strong social safety net and a strong protection of minority populations.




> Israel and the US are unique countries in this context, that they are both individualist,
> 
> in the range of it most healthy contrast and relevancy for human development.
> 
> Israel is as successful archetype of particularist individualism, and the US of more universalist individualism.




I’m not sure I agree.


I see strong similarities in that both the US and Israel are at heart a nation of immigrants.  Israel has welcomed Jews from different cultures all over the world and that has enriched Israel in a way that it’s Arab neighbors have never experienced.  I see similarities in basic values:  human rights, minority protections, independent judiciary.  All that, imo, is a product of Israel’s diverse immigrant experience.


Individualism in and of itself is both admirable and incredibly selfish.  It is admirable in that it builds a strong economy, it is selfish in that it spurns a social safety net, and treats badly those who don’t manage to make it.  I don’t know where Israel falls in this, so I’m only speaking for the US.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Can you expand on this?  I'm not sure I understand you.

IMO people can and are deprived of their identity.  Case in point - the Rohinga in Myanmar.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

Shusha said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Prior to that they were publicly declaring their submission to the rule of Arabian King of Mecca.
> ...



And yet they claim they are NOT Shusha.  They have experienced a very different history from both Jordanians and Syrians.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 14, 2020)

rylah said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Just considering Arabs as some kind of homogeneous "people" is a very "imperialist" construct..

And today the big secret is that Iran is nearing the "Red Zone" is constructing a NEW and improved Ottoman Empire...

Even if they don't identify as "Arab"...

Aside -- "Red Zone" is an American football term for having the offense of one team inside the opponents 20 yard line... And that's really what's happening without anybody IMPORTANT (like the American press) pointing this out...

The Iranians have quietly been occupying large sections of Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.. They have a large proxy presence in the Sinai Pen. and Yemen and Gaza.. They are conducting joint military exercises with Russia/China.. 

I think Israel is soon to be "best buddies" with Jordan and Egypt and a few other "Arab League" players... 



And I thought Americans HATED empires and colonialism....


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 14, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Cases like the Rohinga or the Uyghars are ethnic persecution.. When a govt power decides to persecute them, it's because the govt ACCEPTS their identity as a crime.. You and I both know how extreme this is..

But nobody is stripping them of their identity/ethnicity.. They are being persecuted BECAUSE of it...

ALL of the Palis within Israel probably are not genuine Palestinian.. In terms of when they came and what allegiances to countries that they had before... Palestinians simply don't WANT "Israeli rights".. They want sovereignty.. They are not being stripped of rights because they are Palestinian.. They are refugees from conflict that have been occupied.. And if they HAD a history of self-governance and self-representation to go along with that Pali identity -- they'd be much farther towards negotiating a settlement...

But the "Pali identity" lacks that history and determination....


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2020)

Coyote said:


> And is that all you think it is Shusha?
> 
> I think it is more than that and narrowing  existence to that is pretty low.



They have had nearly a hundred years to prove me wrong.  They have done nothing AT ALL to build their own nation with their own cultural values.  They spend millions of dollars every year to pay their people to slay Jews.  They march at the border screaming "rip the hearts out of Jews!"  If their national aspirations was based on something they wanted to build, rather than something they wanted to destroy -- they would have built something.

And don't give me the sob story that the poor Arabs couldn't do anything because Israel.  Its a cop-out and I don't buy it.



> The Palestinians, whether you agree with their view or not saw their existence at stake under Jewish sovereignty.


No, they didn't.  They saw their Arab Caliphate lose a tiny slice of territory to the indigenous inhabitants and had a temper tantrum.



> You can argue it, but that is their view.  And to a degree it is justified by the refusal of Israeli Jews to allow them (not their hundreds of descendants) but those who originally fled from the ravages of war - to return.  That was followed by very unjust absentee landowner laws (ya, I know, we don't agree on that either  ).  It's their perspective.


We can discuss return when the war ends.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...



And that is different from your obsessive hatred of Muslims...so much so you will resort to hate sites to promote outright lies (like when you claimed the notorious American Pedo Larry Nasser was a Muslim) It is time to start discussing the rape of Britain’s children.  Ya know....that could come right out of Mein Kampf couldn't it?  Canards based in hate and lies.

Pot Kettle Black.

I suggest you don't go down the bigot road and derail this thread without examining your own blemishes in the mirror (but please don't pop your zits publicly.)


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Actually - with the Rohinga they ARE being stripped of their identity.  That is the peculiar evil of it (other than the obvious genocide) - they are not called "Rohinga" - an identity that establishes them as a minority in Myanmar, but "Bengali" by the Myanmar government.  They are stripped of their identity, history and lives.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



I think it is shared land, as I've always said - but when I try to speak to the point of view of one or the other, I'll refer to it from that point of view.

How do THEY see it?  Many Palestinians see it as "their" land, and frankly - so do many Jews.  We may agree it's shared but if we are trying to understand the view point of each side - how do we say it?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 14, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Only a totalitarian govt can do that.. Posters on a message board cannot..  I'm sure the name change doesn't affect their resistance to being persecuted.. Israel isn't persecuting Palestinians for being Muslim or Arab or Palestinian.. They are just conducting a stale and odorious occupation gone on too long...

Their "IDENTITY" that is causing their plight is simply  *"people who lived in JORDAN before the war"... *

And the folks in GAZA HAD GOTTEN their sovereignty from Israel and screwed that all to hell....


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I agree.  That is a great definition.  I would add to your list of traits - a shared national history that unites the group as one group and begins the process of separation into a different “people”.  In my opinion that can be a turning point in separating a group of people out of a larger group.  Much as genetic bottlenecks through geographical barriers can create new species, a similar thing can happen to separate one group from a larger culture and create a new one.  In that sense it is an organic evolution of a people.


Yes, I'm comfortable adding that to a list of possible traits.  Not required, but a possible salad ingredient.  



> First: is the “malice” malice?  IS there malice and is it entirely where you seem to want to place it?


I was thinking when I wrote this as an objective possibility and not necessarily relating to this specific conflict.  Interesting that you assumed that.  



> Is there a group of people disenfranchised from the nationalist movements playing out around them?
> 
> Is there a group of people who see themselves as losing out in this?


Those are leading question, so I'm not going to bite.  But I'll ask a different question based on your premise:  If there is a group of people disenfranchised from nationalist movements and "losing out" -- why is that, do you think?

I do think that the idea of Jewish nationalism is a 19th/20th century phenomenum  - unless you can make the argument otherwise.  Before then they were a persecuted religious group.[/quote]
I can absolutely make an argument otherwise from the Jewish perspective.  The Jewish people have always, always seen themselves as a "nation" attached to their indigenous land.  Always.  Its in prayers and songs going back thousands of year.  New songs created in all time periods, yearning for home and to live according to Jewish values, and to re-build the cities, especially Jerusalem.  Just because you don't know these things, doesn't make them not true.  



> It seems to me that a shared unique history that binds them is sufficient.


But not a history that they steal from other peoples.  



> Does there have to be a “purpose”?


In this context?  Yep.  If you want to talk about disenfranchised nationalism, absolutely there has to be purpose.  Otherwise we are just tossing definitions around like philosophy majors in the cafeteria line.  



> I believe the Palestinians meet some of those requirements:   myths and stories, a shared history  Naqba, life and cultural changes within refugee camps.  It might not be centuries old but if there is no magical date or time frame, then I think these would qualify to separate them as a their own entity.


I disagree.  Show me.  I can buy a "shared history" beginning in the late 60s (Arafat, Abbas and all that).  Not at all convinced about the rest of it. But, if there is something I don't know, please feel free to enlighten me.


----------



## admonit (Jan 15, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I didn't answer this earlier because I was on my phone during my lunch half hour and I feel you deserve a better answer then a snark - thank you for a serious reply!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a magical date: 28 May 1964, when a new political entity "the Palestinian people" was declared.


----------



## José (Jan 15, 2020)

> Originally posted by *ForeverYoung436*
> Btw, if you answer my post, can you try to do so without putting up my avatar? I know what it looks like. Just press the "post reply" button.



LOL.

OK.

The pic of Hollywood's young actor who represents ForeverYoung...

Rylah's kippah made of wool.

Shusha's mapple leaf.

Coyote's indefectible canine companion.

All of them with a "speech balloon" above their heads for all to see what I'm addressing... not buried deep in the quote system so that you don't know what the hell people are replying to.

It was cuddly... reminded me of a comic book but what can I do?

The whole Board reacted to my cute invention as if it were the 10 Plagues of Egypt.


----------



## José (Jan 15, 2020)

> Originally posted by *ForeverYoung436*
> You never addressed rylah's question about leading by example. Did you even read the article he posted? When is Spain going to grant citizenship to the descendants of the Muslims she expelled during the Inquisition? What about the right of return? Let's see how much you like living as a dhimmi under Sharia law.



I didn't address his question because it's a nonexistent claim, a non-issue if there ever was one.

The only Muslims claiming a historical right to settle in Spain are half a dozen Isis and Muslim Brotherhood wackos who just can't put the crack pipe down.

But are you saying people who don't believe in the separation between church and state, mosque and state or even shul and state don't have the right to live in their homeland?

If my country was also the homeland of millions of religious fundamentalists of any faith living in exile I would support their return and if they established a theocracy I would probably move to another country but I would continue to support their right to live in their homeland from abroad.

Everybody (even religious fanatics) have a right to live in their homeland.



> Originally posted by *ForeverYoung436*
> Why don't you stop fixating on Israel, Jose, and worry about Catalonia instead.



Now you're at least talking about a serious issue, not islamic clownery, blabber, buffonery, tomfoolery etc...

I'm all in favor of the catalan people deciding their future..

The problem is if you conduct 40 polls in Barcelona, Tarragona and Girona about catallan independence 20 will have a majority in favor and 20 against it.

I have no problem with them leaving Spain... But they have to make up their minds first... same goes for the Basque Country.

Catalonia and the Basque Country are for Spain what Quebec is for Canada... 

A bunch of ditherers who don't even know what they really  want.

As for being fixated on Israel you have an awful lot of people who posts only or almost only here:

Shusha

Rylah

Tinmore

Rocco

etc...

I joined the Board in 2004 and my post count is 3792 at least 20% of them about different subjects so I'm not *THAT* fixated.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Indeed, you still sidestep the question of what sovereign Arab-Moslem territory is occupied.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Jan 15, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



The fact that you support the rape of children in Britain has nothing to do with the antisemitic roots of the creation of a brand new "Palestinian" people.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Palestine.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Indeed, no. You still sidestep the question of what soverign territory was controlled by Arabs-Moslems.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 15, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



He did answer you directly, Hollie.  He believes, incorrectly, that Israel occupies the sovereign state of Palestine that was declared in the West Bank and Gaza in 1988, and which more than 100 countries actually recognize.  Now let's move on.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 15, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...


The fact that you have been clearly caught out lying more than once (the example I gave, your claims about Stanford, etc)  makes anything you say suspect, including your never ending accusations of members supporting child rape.  Your transparent attempt to derail a thread, who's topics is on whether or or not the Palestinians are a people, by changing it to antisemitism and bringing in stuff from another thread, isn't unnoticed.

The Palestinians are a people.   Much of the international community recognizes them as a people.  They aren't going to disappear.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 16, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Dogmaphobe said:
> ...


And neither that thread you brought on antisemitism in Europe.  You want to argue off topic? Meet me in the FZ


----------



## rylah (Mar 12, 2020)

The Palestine =Israeli flag in the land of Israel in 1939 
before the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948 .


----------



## Mindful (Mar 19, 2020)

rylah said:


> The Palestine =Israeli flag in the land of Israel in 1939
> before the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948 .


I have some postage stamps from that era.


----------



## member (Mar 25, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> 
> 
> In Israel, they speak Hebrew.  It's the only country with this national language.  In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country.  In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country.  In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah.  These are no other country's national holidays.
> ...







* "Why does *

* Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state?* 
*Is this what the world really needs*?"


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 25, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It is a distinct and unifying marker that is not shared by any other people. They have Palestinian citizenship. No other people can say that.


----------



## Hollie (Mar 25, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


People within a loosely defined area called the “Bible Belt” are sometimes called, you know, “Bible Belters”. That’s also a marker but it doesn’t identify anything particularly unique.

Antagonistic clans of Arabs-Moslems living in a loosely defined geographic area called Palestine are “citizens” of a loosely defined geographic area.

There’s not a great deal that is unifying about the warring tribes of Hamas and Fatah who operate largely as separate mini-caliphates.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 19, 2020)

The names “palestine” and its derivative “palestinian” are European, not Middle Eastern. Jews were first called “palestinians“ by the British. My family members in the Mandate had “palestinian“ stamped on their documents.


----------



## Rigby5 (May 19, 2020)

MartyNYC said:


> The names “palestine” and its derivative “palestinian” are European, not Middle Eastern. Jews were first called “palestinians“ by the British. My family members in the Mandate had “palestinian“ stamped on their documents.



MartyNYC, Totally and completely wrong.  The word Palestine comes from Filestia or as we now say, Philistine.
It goes back in Egyptian and Greek references to at least 3,000 BC.
The Palestinians the British Mandate for Palestine were there to protect were not Jews.  The British Mandate for Palestine was created by the Treaty of Sevres in 1920, and only about 30,000 Jews lived in the Old City of Jerusalem while Palestine had a population well over a million, who were Arab Molsem, and not Jewish.
Jews were never called Palestinian.
There were always Jews everywhere, like Egypt, Syria, Iran, etc., and they were never called Palestinian.


----------



## Rigby5 (May 19, 2020)

member said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries.  They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries.  They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries.  They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
> ...



No state should ever be associated with just one of the many religions there.
All the foods you mention that are unique to Israel are not at all from or appropriate to the Mideast.
Hebrew is an Arab language, but Jews to not even know their own history enough to realize that.
And no, the kippa is an Arab tradition, which is supposed to include the turban.
Modern Jews simply leave off the Turban so that they can look less Arab.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 19, 2020)

Rigby5 said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > The names “palestine” and its derivative “palestinian” are European, not Middle Eastern. Jews were first called “palestinians“ by the British. My family members in the Mandate had “palestinian“ stamped on their documents.
> ...



Palestine is an English word adopted by Latin-speaking European Christians from the Roman term palaestina imposed on Jews in retribution for the Second Jewish Revolt. Palaestina referred to Philistines, ancient enemies of the Jews who were from the Greek world.

There was no place named palestine in the Ottoman Empire, nor were there any people called palestinians. Britain adopted the Roman name palaestina, anglicized into palestine, name for the British Mandate that ceased to exist in 1948 with Israeli statehood.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 19, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I am saying their identity is Palestinian ...
> ...



Arabs began identifying as palestinians in the 1960s, in large part as anti-Israel propaganda. It’s a Western term, originally applied to Jews in the British Mandate, called palestine. So, Arab palestinians are identifying with the fictional name of a defunct European colonialist entity.


----------



## Rigby5 (May 19, 2020)

MartyNYC said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > MartyNYC said:
> ...



No, the Philistines and the word Palestine is at least 1000 years older than the Roman occupation of Palestine.
And while it was also called the Land Canaan, that was still not the Hebrew tribes, because they clearly were not native.
And clearly you are wrong about the existence of Palestine during the domination by the Ottoman Empire, as ever map before the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI, shows a Palestine label.








						History of Palestine - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








There was only a period about 200 years when Hebrew invaded the Land of Canaan and ruled there.
They were quickly defeated consecutively by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Romans.  There has never been legitimate Jewish rule in the Mideast, anywhere.


----------



## Rigby5 (May 19, 2020)

MartyNYC said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



That is just a lie.
Palestine was always the name for the region, and the Canaanites, Chaldeans, Amorites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Nabatians, Urites, etc., who always lived there, now prefer to be unified under the group label of Palestinians.
They agreed to be called Palestinian in the Treaty of Sevres in 1920.
It was their repayment for helping the Allies in WWI.
The Jews did not participate in the rebellion against the Ottoman Empire, so deserve nothing.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 19, 2020)

Rigby5 said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...



Palestine is a Western name. The map of “palestine” is Western.

Philistines were raiders from the Greek world, verified by recent DNA research. However, they didn’t identify as Philistines and they did not name any land palestine. Philistines inhabited a narrow strip of the Mediterranean coast, in Ashdod, Ashkelon, and Gaza. Philistines have been extinct for 2,500+ years.

The name palestine does not appear in any Middle East historical records.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 19, 2020)

Rigby5 said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Palestine is a European name, not Middle Eastern. No place palestine existed in pre-modern times. There was no place palestine in the Ottoman Empire, nor were there palestinians.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (May 19, 2020)

Rigby5 said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > The names “palestine” and its derivative “palestinian” are European, not Middle Eastern. Jews were first called “palestinians“ by the British. My family members in the Mandate had “palestinian“ stamped on their documents.
> ...




So, the Romans and Greeks were not European then?

Of course you're lying about the terminology. The Palestinians were indeed the Jews.

{
The word itself derives from "_Peleshet_", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". The name began to be used in the Thirteenth Century BCE, for a wave of migrant "Sea Peoples" who came from the area of the Aegean Sea and the Greek Islands and settled on the southern coast of the land of Canaan. There they established five independent city-states (including Gaza) on a narrow strip of land known as Philistia. The Greeks and Romans called it "_Palastina_".

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman "Palastina" derived from the Peleshet.

}

Antisemites are notorious liars.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 19, 2020)

Rigby5 said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Most so-called palestinians are from


Uncensored2008 said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > MartyNYC said:
> ...



Peleshet in the Hebrew Bible refers to Philistines, invaders from Crete, who occupied the Mediterranean coast in Ashdod, Ashkelon, and Gaza. In fact, the Hebrew Bible refers to the Mediterranean Sea as “sea of the Philistines, or Pelishtim.“


----------



## MartyNYC (May 19, 2020)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > MartyNYC said:
> ...



Filastin was just an Arab mispronunciation of palaestina, the Roman name imposed on Jews, which Arabs adopted after their conquest of Syria.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 19, 2020)

MartyNYC said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > MartyNYC said:
> ...


So? What were Native Americans called before it was America?

Names mean nothing.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Names mean nothing.



One of the rare instances where I agree with Tinmore.  This continued arguing over labels is tiring and ridiculous and petty.  

There are, without question, TWO entirely different groups of people involved in this conflict.  Each self-defines and each can call themselves whatever the hell they want.  It makes for nothing except hollow, empty arguments in a lame attempt to try to disappear the other.


----------



## rylah (May 20, 2020)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Names mean nothing.
> ...



Yes ,
that's post modernism.
But there's place for objective truth, facts.

If the name is revealing so much at the same time about the conflict,
why is it irrelevant?

It's not to disappear the other, rather how to say it... say a friend has invented a new orientation and has rage tantrums because I don't want to take seriously that he just gave birth to an alien. Only with a relative, a cousin. You can play the game for some time but at certain point it only exacerbates the problem.

On the other hand if they choose to be called Greek invaders,
then they might as well, just for getting into the role, get their historic due.
Or we can, as I prefer, communicate with Ishmael about his part in Tikun Olam.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...



“Palestinian” means nothing. Palestine was Britain’s fictional name for the British Mandate, which ceased to exist with Israeli statehood. Earlier, it was a fictional Roman name for ancient Israel, referring to Jews’ Philistine foes who were related to Greeks.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2020)

MartyNYC said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > MartyNYC said:
> ...


Before they were Palestinians they were Ottomans. Before that ???

It doesn't matter they are the same people.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2020)




----------



## rylah (May 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



This is ridiculous, she claims saw a picture of refugees loaded on ships to Jordan,
but doesn't understand its 2 day walk distance to the opposite direction.
Or the fact that the Arabs in Haifa were expressly called to stay.

But that's JVP, they're confused.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The British made up the name “palestinian,” which applied to all inhabitants of the British Mandate, including Jews. Arabs generally did not identify as palestinians, until the 1960s. There’s no p in Arabic, so, they say falestinian.


----------



## rylah (May 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Same place, not the same people.
If your current residence is in Milwaukee
it doesn't make you part of the Milwaukee tribe.

Big difference.


----------



## MartyNYC (May 20, 2020)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > MartyNYC said:
> ...



In the Ottoman period, waves of foreigners came to the area, such as Algerians, Bosnians, and Circassians. Common surname is Bushnaq, referring to Bosnia. Waves of Arabs entered British Mandatory “palestine.” Churchill, who oversaw the Mandate, spoke about the huge numbers of Arabs flooding into the area.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2020)




----------



## MartyNYC (May 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



My Jewish family members in the British Mandate were called “palestinians”—That makes me a “palestinian.”


----------



## MartyNYC (May 21, 2020)

“Palestinian“ leader acknowledges “palestinians” are invented, as anti-Israel propaganda 

PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”


----------

