# Biden won debate but Palin exceeded expectations



## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

Debate poll says Biden won, Palin beat expectations - CNN.com

Sounds reasonable to me.


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## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Debate poll says Biden won, Palin beat expectations - CNN.com
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me.



Sounds reasonable cause it's accurate.


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## del (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> Sounds reasonable cause it's accurate.



my favorite Biden response was about how no one could say that he didn't know what it was like to be a single parent.

of course, no one had said that or anything remotely like it, but he had to work it into the debate somehow.


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## midcan5 (Oct 3, 2008)

Does it strike anyone else as odd that our expectations for the person who could be president one day need to be considered at all?



*A vote for McCain/Palin is a vote to continue the same economic policies that are destroying the middle class in America.*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j56i15Wdgok]YouTube - Mccain Caught Lying(exposed on youtube) Worst Nightmare[/ame]


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## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

del said:


> my favorite Biden response was about how no one could say that he didn't know what it was like to be a single parent.
> 
> of course, no one had said that or anything remotely like it, but he had to work it into the debate somehow.



I think the lead in was that he didn't "get it"... you know, what it was like for real people.

And how many times did Palin use the word maverick? My favorite part was when he schmooshed her on that. 

I know lots of people who were hoping that she would have to slink back to Alaska after the debate. Me, not being into schadenfreude, didn't wish that on her. But I think the bar was set so low for her that all she had to do was not have a moment they could take verbatim and use in an SNL skit to survive. The public's view of Biden is that he is very capable now.

So, what I figure is that it's now up to McCain to pull himself back up during the next two debates... 

Bigger stories... that he gave up in Michegan and the bill that's going to go to the house today.

But at least sarah won't be the story for him anymore.


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## del (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> I think the lead in was that he didn't "get it"... you know, what it was like for real people.
> 
> And how many times did Palin use the word maverick? My favorite part was when he schmooshed her on that.
> 
> ...



which reminds me. i have to incorporate my wooden arrow business this morning. in American Samoa. WTF is that about?


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## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

del said:


> which reminds me. i have to incorporate my wooden arrow business this morning. in American Samoa. WTF is that about?



damned if I know... 

But please tell me how mccain voted for the bill and then said that if he were president he'd have vetoed it, consequences be damned.


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## editec (Oct 3, 2008)

Another "debate" which put me to sleep.

Having not wasted my time I declare_ myself_ the official winner of the debates.


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## del (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> damned if I know...
> 
> But please tell me how mccain voted for the bill and then said that if he were president he'd have vetoed it, consequences be damned.



umm, unconvincingly?


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## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

del said:


> umm, unconvincingly?



heh... you know, if you keep being this reaonable, I'm really going to have problems beating your butt.


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## Red Dawn (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Debate poll says Biden won, Palin beat expectations - CNN.com
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me.




She didn't fall on her face, or look like an idiot.  That's a pretty low threshold to pass. 

She said many things that were false or innaccurate, she didn't answer many of Gwen Ifil's questions, and she was very substance-free and stuck to rhetoric and talking points.   Many of her answers were meandering, off topic, and didn't make much sense. 

Biden looked emminently qualified to be prez, and demonstrated a mastery of subject matter, and clearly has a sharp intellect. 

I would say she did well enough for a debate for a city council or something.   But she did not look presidential at all. 

But, I agree, she didn't totally suck.   She managed to not look like a fool.   And she is able to project a pretty good personality.


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## rayboyusmc (Oct 3, 2008)

She stuck to the talking points they gave her.  Not always used correctly.

She has a "gomer pyle" manner that seems to please some people.  I personally don't want Gomer in the Whitehouse.

Big Gaffe made before ana again last night.  I don't know the causes of the global warming, but we are going to fix it.

How?  You dont' know the causesl

Plus she dumped all over George.  She kept saying let's not go back to the past.  Today is not the past.  The current economic crisis is the present.  Deal with it.

I did love her little winky do at the end and her holding her baby.


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## DiamondDave (Oct 3, 2008)

I would not say Biden "won" the debate. I think Palin drove the points home and did better, but then again I am a conservative. People on the left will almost inherently think Biden won. I think that unlike Biden, Palin improved her standing of favorability and her position on whether she is capable to serve as VP.

Both had their flubs and misleadings. But neither really made any serious mistakes. I also think that neither really swayed any votes to the other side of the fence. Depending on what you are/were looking for, both could have swayed a few undecided voters, but not many. I don't think either had the kind of mind blowing performance needed to change the direction of the race right now.

Biden did NOT look like he was ready to step in as Prez... he looked like yet another Washington insider politician, saying exactly what he wanted to say to follow his script.

The best sound bites probably came from Palin. She talked to middle America and kept it 'folksy' (as some reporter put it on the news this morning). 'Say it ain't so Joe', had to be the soundbite of the night.

As for the polls... FUCK the polls... polls mean squat... there are polls out there that show Biden won, there are polls that show Palin won... there are polls showing that she improved her image... there are polls that show she did not.... per usual, polls are a bunch of SHIT


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

We should have come to the conclusion by now that Palin is a "walking soundbite."  If she is given the opportunity to study for a debate or interview, she will be fine.  But if she has to answer questions in an impromtu setting, she doesn't do very well.  I think it is *"a matter concerning gray matter" *or lack thereof.

Wow, I think I'm on a roll this morning!  Friday's do that to me!  Call me a 21st Century *Bennet Serf.*  How many of you old timers remember him?


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## del (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> We should have come to the conclusion by now that Palin is a "walking soundbite."  If she is given the opportunity to study for a debate or interview, she will be fine.  But if she has to answer questions in an impromtu setting, she doesn't do very well.  I think it is *"a matter concerning gray matter" *or lack thereof.
> 
> Wow, I think I'm on a roll this morning!  Friday's do that to me!  Call me a 21st Century *Bennet Serf.*  How many of you old timers remember him?



it's Cerf. and you'd better hope not many remember him.


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## KMAN (Oct 3, 2008)

rayboyusmc said:


> She stuck to the talking points they gave her.  Not always used correctly.
> 
> She has a "gomer pyle" manner that seems to please some people.  I personally don't want Gomer in the Whitehouse.
> 
> ...



So what does cause it?  And please show me a scientific study that enforces your belief...  By the way reports have shown that the earth has cooled since 1998...just FYI.

Globe may be cooling on Global Warming | ScrippsNews


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## Jon (Oct 3, 2008)

Hmmm...after reading FactCheck, I'm going to give the win to Palin. A number of Biden's big points came ater his claims that, "McCain voted the exact same way." Palin hit hard on Obama on a few major points about funding troops, and all Biden replied was, "So did McCain." Turns out, Biden lied.

FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate


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## editec (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> We should have come to the conclusion by now that Palin is a "walking soundbite." If she is given the opportunity to study for a debate or interview, she will be fine. But if she has to answer questions in an impromtu setting, she doesn't do very well. I think it is *"a matter concerning gray matter" *or lack thereof.
> 
> Wow, I think I'm on a roll this morning! Friday's do that to me! Call me a 21st Century *Bennet Serf.* How many of you old timers remember him?


 
I remember him from "What's my Line"

Founder of Random House, and one of the cleverest wags in the 20th century.

_"The Detroit String Quartet played Brahms last night. Brahms lost._


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## Otter_Creek (Oct 3, 2008)

Well if the dems are lucky, maybe ACORN will finally pull off their voter fraud this time.If not, the dems are going to be in shock screaming, " BUT THE POLLS SAID, BUT THE POLLS SAID, BUT THE POLLS SAID". I think it happens every four years or so.


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

My Bad!  Very good!  I read a couple of his books as a kid.  I guess I better research him before I claim some type of similarity concerning fravolity*....eh...(*Palin soundbite)


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

Otter_Creek said:


> Well if the dems are lucky, maybe ACORN will finally pull off their voter fraud this time.If not, the dems are going to be in shock screaming, " BUT THE POLLS SAID, BUT THE POLLS SAID, BUT THE POLLS SAID". I think it happens every four years or so.



Watch the Swing States, my friend.  They will give you a hint.  Not since Jimma Carter has Virginia voted for a Dem. candiate.  Butit is looking like Obama will carry the Commonwealth.  NC is also leaning Obama.  These used to be lockins for the GOP.


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

In your wildest dreams Biden won. Keep lying to yourself. Pinheads.


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## Otter_Creek (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Watch the Swing States, my friend.  They will give you a hint.  Not since Jimma Carter has Virginia voted for a Dem. candiate.  Butit is looking like Obama will carry the Commonwealth.  NC is also leaning Obama.  These used to be lockins for the GOP.



Maybe Obama will change the trend, but it's been pretty consistent that dems win polls and repubs win elections.


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## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> In your wildest dreams Biden won. Keep lying to yourself. Pinheads.



did we watch the same debate?


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

jsanders said:


> Hmmm...after reading FactCheck, I'm going to give the win to Palin. A number of Biden's big points came ater his claims that, "McCain voted the exact same way." Palin hit hard on Obama on a few major points about funding troops, and all Biden replied was, "So did McCain." *Turns out, Biden lied.*
> 
> FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate



Exactly- he lied repeatedly. He threw her off a bit with that but she finally called him on it. His morning after pill will have to be a big one.

Pollster Frank Luntz had a group of undecideds (half lean McCain, half Obama) on FNC last night with his little dial thingies. The first question he asked them was "who won the debate" and they were overwhelmingly for Palin.


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## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Exactly- he lied repeatedly. He threw her off a bit with that but she finally called him on it. His morning after pill will have to be a big one.
> 
> Pollster Frank Luntz had a group of undecideds (half lean McCain, half Obama) on FNC last night with his little dial thingies. The first question he asked them was "who won the debate" and they were overwhelmingly for Palin.



yep, and palin never told a lie or exagerated the truth


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> did we watch the same debate?






yes, but I have'nt been indoctrinated at the alter of KOS, so I can be a little more objective.


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## Larkinn (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> yes, but I have'nt been indoctrinated at the alter of KOS, so I can be a little more objective.



Objective?   You go around to all the different threads saying retarded shit with no substance about how much obama/biden/democrats in general are terrible and how McCain/Palin/Republics in general are perfect.

You are about as objective as a surrogate for either of the campaigns.


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## Jon (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> yep, and palin never told a lie or exagerated the truth



Told an outright lie? No. Exaggerated the truth? Yes. She said Obama voted for a bill that raised taxes on families making $42,000, but it only raised taxes on individuals who make that much. She said oil costs $800B a year, which is an old figure, it is now only about $500B. There were a few others, but she never accused Obama of doing something he didn't do.

Biden made at least 3 outright lies about McCain, saying he voted for bills that he DID NOT vote for, all to deflect claims made by Palin. During the debates, these were some of Biden's strongest points, exclaiming, "McCain voted for the EXACT same bills," in his harshest tones. In the end, they were completely false.

Last night, I said Biden won. After the facts are checked, I give the edge to Palin. She may not know as much as Biden, but apparently what she knows is more true than what he knows.


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## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

jsanders said:


> Told an outright lie? No. Exaggerated the truth? Yes.



spin is a wonderful thing, aint it?


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Objective?   You go around to all the different threads saying retarded shit *with no substance about how much obama/biden/democrats in general are terrible and how *McCain/Palin/Republics in general are perfect.
> 
> You are about as objective as a surrogate for either of the campaigns.






because you are deaf, dumb, blind, and indoctrinated.


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## Valerie (Oct 3, 2008)

jsanders said:


> Hmmm...after reading FactCheck, I'm going to give the win to Palin. A number of Biden's big points came ater his claims that, "McCain voted the exact same way." Palin hit hard on Obama on a few major points about funding troops, and all Biden replied was, "So did McCain." Turns out, Biden lied.
> 
> FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate



Yes, I think Biden came across as just another disingenuous smarmy politician when he said things like, "I love John - God bless him, but he voted against funding the troops too".  He went on and on in that same context about how John voted for this or that -- Clearly just a smokescreen for the truth of where McCain actually stands on issues.

Hasn't it become clear to everyone by now the way these politicians throw extraneous contradictory crap into these big bills _just_ to be able to make these types of implications at election time...?  Just look at this recent "rescue" bill for a prime example of how congress pull this type of misleading stuff ALL the time.


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## Larkinn (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> because you are deaf, dumb, blind, and indoctrinated.



Your right...I'm deaf, dumb, blind, and indoctrinated because I can't see that Republicans are perfect...



Way to show your true asinine and idiotic colors.


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## clane1987 (Oct 3, 2008)

Like I said on another thread, "Palin did well because she exceeded expectations," sounds like an attempt at a moral victory for the conservatives.


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## mdjgirl7 (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Debate poll says Biden won, Palin beat expectations - CNN.com
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me.



Isn't that amazing considering right after the debate they were counting up the lies he told. I guess America wants to hear lies not the truth. Just tell us something pretty and we will believe you.


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## del (Oct 3, 2008)

PalinFiles08 said:


> It appears that Sarah Palin can not stay out of the controversy.  The list of scandals is still growing. Sex and lies seem to be a prominent part of her lifestyle.  Check out this site.  You will not believe what you see.
> 
> ThePalinFiles.com



you're right. i won't believe it.


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## mdjgirl7 (Oct 3, 2008)

PalinFiles08 said:


> It appears that Sarah Palin can not stay out of the controversy.  The list of scandals is still growing. Sex and lies seem to be a prominent part of her lifestyle.  Check out this site.  You will not believe what you see.
> 
> ThePalinFiles.com




Obama is a whole lot more dangerous then Sarah ever thought about being.

check this link

About Obama&#8217;s illegal foreign campaign contributions from GAZA Palestine, which he listed as GA(like Georgia)  Thoughts Of A Conservative Christian


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Your right...I'm deaf, dumb, blind, and indoctrinated because I can't see that Republicans are perfect...
> 
> 
> 
> Way to show your true asinine and idiotic colors.








you don't see anything about Republicans except hatred. That's where the deaf dumb blind and indoctrinated comes from.


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> yep, and palin never told a lie or exagerated the truth


 Feel free to document your accusations.


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## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Feel free to document your accusations.



theyre listed on that website jsanders keeps posting. but he ignores them because theyre "not as bad as bidens"


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> In your wildest dreams Biden won. Keep lying to yourself. Pinheads.



No one here is lying.  I just posted a CNN link.  Go ahead and find a FOX links to dispute that, as I am sure will shortly appear.  It is only a matter of time.


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> because you are deaf, dumb, blind, and indoctrinated.



In other words..."BAAAAAAA, I am a bush sheep and always will be."


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> No one here is lying.  I just posted a CNN link.  Go ahead and find a FOX links to dispute that, as I am sure will shortly appear.  It is only a matter of time.



You did hear the peggy noonan thing didn't ya?


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> In other words..."BAAAAAAA, I am a bush sheep and always will be."







believe it.


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## DiamondDave (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> In other words..."BAAAAAAA, I am a bush sheep and always will be."



Then in other words.. you're saying "wahhhhhhhhhhhhh.. I suffer from BDS"

see... easy to put out a generalization, ain't it?


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

DiamondDave said:


> Then in other words.. you're saying "wahhhhhhhhhhhhh.. I suffer from BDS"
> 
> see... easy to put out a generalization, ain't it?






make that *PMS* they all seem to be afflicted this morning with Palin Madness Syndrome.  We need funding for a clinic.......


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## mdjgirl7 (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> make that *PMS* they all seem to be afflicted this morning with Palin Madness Syndrome.  We need funding for a clinic.......



Hard to admit she did well ah


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## Clay Buster (Oct 3, 2008)

After watching the debate I thought both candidates did a decent job.

Neither candidate will pull more voters to their side, but I also think neither candidate will push voters away. I know this was a big concern for many Repubs, but Palin handled herself just fine.

Both candidates made several mistatements and I don't think you can say one side was worse than the other in this area.

From the factcheck link provided earlier:

FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate

Of the gaffes listed, I think the bolded parts were the most serious.



> *Biden incorrectly said John McCain voted the exact same way as Obama on a controversial troop funding bill. The two were actually on opposite sides.*
> 
> Palin repeated a false claim that Obama once voted in favor of higher taxes on families making as little as $42,000 a year. He did not. The budget bill in question called for an increase only on singles making that amount, but a family of four would not have been affected unless they made at least $90,000 a year.
> 
> ...


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> theyre listed on that website jsanders keeps posting. but he ignores them because theyre "not as bad as bidens"


That's pure bullshit. Pick one, post it here, and link to it so I can shine a bright light of truth on it and watch it shrivel like the wicked witch of the east.


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## Chris (Oct 3, 2008)

Palin never answered the questions, she just read her talking points and winked.

I had to laugh though when one of her bangs got caught in her eyelash, and it kept bobbing up and down every time she blinked.

Sometimes it's hard to be a woman.....


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris said:


> Palin never answered the questions, she just read her talking points and winked.
> 
> I had to laugh though when one of her bangs got caught in her eyelash, and it kept bobbing up and down every time she blinked.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to be a woman.....



She just didn't answer the questions the way the liberal moderator and the liberal opponent wanted, you sexist asshole.


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## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> That's pure bullshit. Pick one, post it here, and link to it so I can shine a bright light of truth on it and watch it shrivel like the wicked witch of the east.



its bullshit because youre too lazy to go back a couple pages to look at the link? my god. heres the link. go in there and prove factcheck wrong

FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate


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## Chris (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> She just didn't answer the questions the way the liberal moderator and the liberal opponent wanted, you sexist asshole.



Speaking of talking points....

Like you give a shit about "sexism." 

Don't make me laugh.


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## editec (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> did we watch the same debate?


 
Yes, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Palin, whose answers basically amounted to a nothing much, since the woman is obviously over her head and truly doesn't have a clue about issues, didn't confuse people by answering the questions.

Biden, who actually knows something and therefore answered the questions put before him, confused the easily confuable with facts.

We see the same sort of thing playing out on this board all the time.

Ya got to give it to the Republicans, they know their audience.


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## DiamondDave (Oct 3, 2008)

editec said:


> Yes, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Palin, whose answers basically amounted to a nothing much, since the woman is obviously over her head and truly doesn't have a clue about issues, didn't confuse people by answering the questions.
> 
> ...



Those are complete subjective opinions based on a preconceived notion about Palin before you even watched the debate....

Biden did not worry about facts... he tried to make many of them up along the way to fit his story... but since you have an extreme bias, that fact means nothing to you....
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, indeed....


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## Jon (Oct 3, 2008)

editec said:


> Biden, who actually knows something and therefore answered the questions put before him, confused the easily confuable with facts.



If by facts you mean outright lies, sure. Biden made so many false accusations about McCain's voting record, about his own support of McCain, and about his own disapproval of Obama.


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## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

DiamondDave said:


> Those are complete subjective opinions based on a preconceived notion about Palin before you even watched the debate....
> 
> Biden did not worry about facts... he tried to make many of them up along the way to fit his story... but since you have an extreme bias, that fact means nothing to you....
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, indeed....



and as the factcheck link shows, palin made up facts as well. but it doesnt matter that she did that, right? only that biden was wrong


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

DiamondDave said:


> Those are complete subjective opinions based on a preconceived notion about Palin before you even watched the debate....
> 
> Biden did not worry about facts... he tried to make many of them up along the way to fit his story... but since you have an extreme bias, that fact means nothing to you....
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, indeed....






absolutely, did you see the asshole deny saying this?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rXyTRT-NZg]YouTube - Joe Biden on Renewables and Coal in Maumee, OH[/ame]


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## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

Biden did not deny saying that.  He said it was taken out of context.  And if you listen to what he is saying and consider the context and environment when he said it, it's obvious that what he was saying is we're not only supporting clean coal.  He goes on to mention the dirty coal in china which makes since if you are trying to get the idea across that you support alternative energy, but you cannot eliminate coal use- even if you could in the U.S., China would still be polluting the environment.  So, along with cleaner alternative energy, you have to be able to use clean coal technology to help out as well.  That's a complicated point to make in rope line where you can barely hear.  Taking stuff like this is ridiculous.  Anyone who uses this as an attack on Biden should not defend Palin blatantly violating McCain's rule on talking about Pakistan plans out loud at the Cheese-steak place.  If you do, then you're being inconsistent and intellectually dishonest.


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## Jon (Oct 3, 2008)

Race to the Finish : Palin Scored Points, But She Didn?t Win


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## rayboyusmc (Oct 3, 2008)

From some of all the soures she reads:

Time
[QUOTEIndeed, Sarah Palin's high-energy performance in the vice-presidential debate was the most glaring demonstrationsince George W. Bush's performances in 2000of how little you can get away with knowing and still survive one of these things, especially if the rules limit the cross-examination as severely as they did in this debate. Her relentless opacity was impressive. She refused to answer the questions where she hadn't been prepped with answers and when Biden pointed out that an early question had been on deregulation not taxes, she flashed: "I may not answer the questions the way you and the moderator want to hear, but I'm gonna talk straight to the American people."

Talk straight she didn't, with only a few exceptions. She talked talking points. And when the talking points concerned areas where she didn't know diddly, she didn't talk them very convincingly. Indeed, there were times I got the distinct impression that she didn't understand the points she was talking about (on the vice president's constitutional powers, for example).

Joe Biden, by contrast, demonstrated a real knowledge of the issues in question. He made several verbal fumblesit was Syria, not Hizballah, that left Lebanonand at times he lapsed into legi-speak, even using plague words like "amendments" and "Liheap" (the winter heating oil assistance program for poor people). But his was a solid, informed and restrained performancealthough his best moments came near the end of the debate (when much of America had turned to the baseball playoffs or reruns of their favorite sitcoms on cable). He was genuinely moving when he talked about being a single parent after the death of his wife (he almost began to weep, but held it together); in fact, that moment was more real than anything Palin said all night. He also closed with a devastating point: McCain was, sure enough, a maverick on some things, but not on any of the issues that really mattered in this electionand he listed those issues, and where McCain stood on them, to great effect.
][/QUOTE]

Klein: Palin Was Fine, But This Debate Was No Contest - TIME

Newsweek



> But Palin also sidestepped certain questions, pivoting at times to talking points and generalities.
> 
> Asked by moderator Gwen Ifill if she would support legislation allowing debt-strapped mortgage holders to file for bankruptcy to get out from under that debt, Palin said yes but avoided details, quickly steering the focus back to a more general discussion of the "toxic mess" in the financial industry.
> 
> ...



Candidates spar on energy, taxes, war | Newsweek Politics: Campaign 2008 | Newsweek.com

Us News & World



> Less than a half hour into last night's vice presidential debate, moderator Gwen Ifill asked Republican Sarah Palin and Democrat Joe Biden how, if elected, they'd scale back campaign promises given the country's economic turmoil.
> 
> 
> Sen. Joe Biden and Gov. Sarah Palin greet each other at the start of the vice presidential debate.
> ...



Sarah Palin Delivers Gaffe-Free Debate Performance Against Joe Biden - US News and World Report


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> Biden did not deny saying that.  He said it was taken out of context.  And if you listen to what he is saying and consider the context and environment when he said it, it's obvious that what he was saying is we're not only supporting clean coal.  He goes on to mention the dirty coal in china which makes since if you are trying to get the idea across that you support alternative energy, but you cannot eliminate coal use- even if you could in the U.S., China would still be polluting the environment.  So, along with cleaner alternative energy, you have to be able to use clean coal technology to help out as well.  That's a complicated point to make in rope line where you can barely hear.  Taking stuff like this is ridiculous.  Anyone who uses this as an attack on Biden should not defend Palin blatantly violating McCain's rule on talking about Pakistan plans out loud at the Cheese-steak place.  If you do, then you're being inconsistent and intellectually dishonest.







No coal burning in America sounded pretty final to me. let china do it and we'll try to get them to clean theirs up..


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## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

Good summary of the debate IMO.  Thanks for the link Jsanders.


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## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> No coal burning in America sounded pretty final to me. let china do it and we'll try to get them to clean theirs up..



And this is contrary to what I said how?  Clean coal technology supported because if coal is going to burned it should be clean?


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> From some of all the soures she reads



That's just liberal media bias... 

(Trying a little preemption here)


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> And this is contrary to what I said how?  Clean coal technology supported because if coal is going to burned it should be clean?






you denied he said it, and he said it.


----------



## Silence (Oct 3, 2008)

del said:


> my favorite Biden response was about how no one could say that he didn't know what it was like to be a single parent.
> 
> of course, no one had said that or anything remotely like it, but he had to work it into the debate somehow.



Kind of the way McCain works being a POW into every conversation 

I think his point was that she didn't have the exclusive handle on the struggles of raising children under difficult circumstances.  

I think it's kind of sad that Palin had set the bar so low for herself that anything above being a jibbering idiot would've been seen as a win for the Republicans.  

I think she performed far better than her prior interviews would have indicated possible.  Perhaps that was by design.


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> Following the October 2 vice presidential debate, several media outlets have falsely claimed that Sen. Joe Biden was wrong when he said during the debate that Sen. John McCain "voted against funding the troops" in a 2007 appropriations bill. Biden said: "John McCain voted against funding the troops because an amendment he voted for -- voted against had a timeline in it to drawdown American troops. And John said, 'I'm not going to fund the troops if in fact there is a timeline.' " In an October 2 article, CBSNews.com wrote of Biden's comments: "This is wrong. The 2007 troop appropriation amendment first had a withdrawal timetable. McCain urged the President to veto that amendment -- and Bush did, and most Republicans voted against the amendment -- but McCain missed the actual vote." Similarly, in an October 2 post on MSNBC.com's First Read, NBC News' Carrie Dann and Mark Murray reported: "McCain OPPOSED -- but did not vote on -- a Senate measure with troop funding because it contained a timetable for withdrawal. Biden said McCain 'voted' against it" [emphasis in original]. And in an October 3 article, FactCheck.org also claimed: "Biden is simply wrong to say that McCain voted against that bill; he was absent and didn't vote at all. McCain did oppose the bill, and he urged President Bush to veto it." In fact, Biden's statement was correct: While McCain did not vote on a later version of the appropriations bill, he voted against the measure on March 29, 2007, and said at the time that he was opposing it, in part, because it "would establish a timeline" for U.S. withdrawal from Iraq.



Link


----------



## Chris (Oct 3, 2008)

Palin is a former sportscaster, so in the debate she could just read talking points. 

In an interview format she has to answer specific questions, so she is in trouble. 

Like Miss Teen South Carolina....


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> you denied he said it, and he said it.



you asked if we saw that asshole deny saying this (link to the youtube video on coal)

From the Debate transcript:

_Ifil: On clean coal.

BIDEN: Oh, on clean coal. My record, just take a look at the record. My record for 25 years has supported clean coal technology. A comment made in a rope line was taken out of context. I was talking about exporting that technology to China so when they burn their dirty coal, it won't be as dirty, it will be clean._

So no, I didn't see him deny saying that.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> you asked if we saw that asshole deny saying this (link to the youtube video on coal)
> 
> From the Debate transcript:
> 
> ...







Nope! good try Joe but you clearly said no coal burning in America.


----------



## Silence (Oct 3, 2008)

Otter_Creek said:


> Well if the dems are lucky, maybe ACORN will finally pull off their voter fraud this time.If not, the dems are going to be in shock screaming, " BUT THE POLLS SAID, BUT THE POLLS SAID, BUT THE POLLS SAID". I think it happens every four years or so.



It's cute how a Con would already be talking about a stolen election... considering Bush stole one for sure and possibly another if the evidence is to be believed about Ohio.  

It's always good to get your excuses ready ahead of time I guess Otter.


----------



## del (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris said:


> Palin is a former sportscaster, so in the debate she could just read talking points.
> 
> In an interview format she has to answer specific questions, so she is in trouble.
> 
> Like Miss Teen South Carolina....



do you spend a lot of time ogling teenage girls?
sad. not surprising, but sad.


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

Willowtree, you're just not making sense.  Your post asked if we saw him deny what he said in the youtube video, which is "we're not supporting clean coal technology."  Just like factcheck said.  He did say the line he was accused of saying.  He said it was taken out of context.  And I agree, it was.

Now if you want me to respond, please make yourself clear.  Tell me what you are saying he denied, and provide the quote where he denied it.


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

I think I have figured out what you are saying.  In the rope line he was talking about exporting clean coal technology to China, which at a minimum would be reason to support the technology- whether you support its use in America or not.  And that is what he was saying in the rope line.  But as he said, just look at his record, and according to Factcheck, his record does show consistent support for clean coal technology.  You are trying to take his argument for supporting clean coal technology regardless of whether it is used in America or not, and claim it implies he is absolutely opposed to its use in America when his record clearly indicates the opposite.  Take in the entire conversation and situation, not just cherry pick lines here and there and bend them to fit an argument you already wanted to make.


----------



## del (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> , not just cherry pick lines here and there and bend them to fit an argument you already wanted to make.



who would do such a thing?


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> I think I have figured out what you are saying.  In the rope line he was talking about exporting clean coal technology to China, which at a minimum would be reason to support the technology- whether you support its use in America or not.  And that is what he was saying in the rope line.  But as he said, just look at his record, and according to Factcheck, his record does show consistent support for clean coal technology.  You are trying to take his argument for supporting clean coal technology regardless of whether it is used in America or not, and claim it implies he is absolutely opposed to its use in America when his record clearly indicates the opposite.  Take in the entire conversation and situation, not just cherry pick lines here and there and bend them to fit an argument you already wanted to make.






what did he mean when he said "No coal plants in America"?


----------



## Chris (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> what did he mean when he said "No coal plants in America"?



Coal don't grow on trees.....


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris said:


> Coal don't grow on trees.....



why didn't he just say "coal don't grow on trees"?


----------



## DiamondDave (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> and as the factcheck link shows, palin made up facts as well. but it doesnt matter that she did that, right? only that biden was wrong



If you actually read my earlier posts... you'll see I thought both made minor mistakes....and I am not going to bash for that... mispronunciations, number mistakes, etc.... no biggie

Although it was Biden who came out with flat out lies


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> During coverage of the October 2 vice-presidential debate on PBS' Charlie Rose, Rose asked, "Did either of them make any mistakes that you noticed?" National Public Radio senior news analyst Cokie Roberts responded that Sen. Joe Biden "talked about the Bosniaks." Roberts later said: "_f [Gov. Sarah Palin] had said 'Bosniak,' everybody would be making a big deal of it, you know." In fact, Biden correctly referred to certain residents of Bosnia and Herzegovina as Bosniaks. According to the U.S. State Department, as of 2002, the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina consisted of the following ethnic groups: "Bosniak 48.3%, Serb 34.0%, Croat 15.4%, others 2.3%."
> 
> The CIA World Factbook states: "Bosniak has replaced Muslim as an ethnic term in part to avoid confusion with the religious term Muslim -- an adherent of Islam."_


_

NPR correspondent on a PBS show makes a mistake criticizing Biden.  Since everybody knows public radio and television have an infamous liberal bias, this is obviously part of an elaborate scheme to criticize Biden, but secretly know that the criticism is incorrect so people will look it up and see that Biden really is smart.

_


----------



## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

DiamondDave said:


> If you actually read my earlier posts... you'll see I thought both made minor mistakes....and I am not going to bash for that... mispronunciations, number mistakes, etc.... no biggie
> 
> Although it was Biden who came out with flat out lies





> Palin: Now, Barack Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air-raiding villages and killing civilians. And such a reckless, reckless comment and untrue comment, again, hurts our cause.
> The Associated Press fact-checked this one, and found that in fact U.S troops were killing more civilians at the time than insurgents: "As of Aug. 1, the AP count shows that while militants killed 231 civilians in attacks in 2007, Western forces killed 286. Another 20 were killed in crossfire that cant be attributed to one party." Afghan President Hamid Karzai had expressed concern about these civilian killings, a concern President Bush said he shared.
> 
> Palin threw out an old canard when she criticized Obama for voting for the 2005 energy bill and said, thats what gave those oil companies those big tax breaks. Its a false attack Sen. Hillary Clinton used against Obama in the primary, and McCain himself has hurled. Its true that the bill gave some tax breaks to oil companies, but it also took away others. And according to the Congressional Research Service, the bill created a slight net increase in taxes for the oil industry.
> ...



oh, so it isnt bad if you dont call them 'flat out lies.' thats bullshit.


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> what did he mean when he said "No coal plants in America"?



Please, I'm tired of trying to follow this back and forth.  Tell me exactly where he said it and what you say he was denying.  Did he say no clean coal plants?  Was he referring to dirty coal plants?

Just give the statement and source for a comment.  Then give the statement and source where he denied the previous comment.  If you're right I'll admit it.  But I'm not sure what you're even claiming he said or denied at this point.


----------



## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> its bullshit because youre too lazy to go back a couple pages to look at the link? my god. heres the link. go in there and prove factcheck wrong
> 
> FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate



You're too lazy to read what I said. I said "pick one".


----------



## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris said:


> Speaking of talking points....
> 
> Like you give a shit about "sexism."
> 
> Don't make me laugh.


 Why wouldn't I? Or is this just one of the many baseless assumptions that liberals like you use as talking points about conservatives, yet can never back up?


----------



## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> You're too lazy to read what I said. I said "pick one".



and i told you to pick any, to make it easier for you


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> Please, I'm tired of trying to follow this back and forth.  Tell me exactly where he said it and what you say he was denying.  Did he say no clean coal plants?  Was he referring to dirty coal plants?
> 
> Just give the statement and source for a comment.  Then give the statement and source where he denied the previous comment.  If you're right I'll admit it.  But I'm not sure what you're even claiming he said or denied at this point.



did you watch the video?


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

Are referring to me or them?


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

did you watch the video?

Yes.  And I repeat, *Just give the statement and source for a comment. Then give the statement and source where he denied the previous comment. If you're right I'll admit it. But I'm not sure what you're even claiming he said or denied at this point.*

Provide all of the information above.  Am I expecting too much here?  I mean judging from your previous in depth discussions on this thread with intellectual gems like:


> In your wildest dreams Biden won. Keep lying to yourself. Pinheads.-Willowtree
> because you are deaf, dumb, blind, and indoctrinated.-Willowtree
> make that PMS they all seem to be afflicted this morning with Palin Madness Syndrome. We need funding for a clinic...... -Willowtree


----------



## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> and i told you to pick any, to make it easier for you


No you didn't. You asked me to "prove factcheck wrong". Pick one or stop wasting electrons.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> did you watch the video?
> 
> Yes.  And I repeat, *Just give the statement and source for a comment. Then give the statement and source where he denied the previous comment. If you're right I'll admit it. But I'm not sure what you're even claiming he said or denied at this point.*
> 
> Provide all of the information above.  Am I expecting too much here?  I mean judging from your previous in depth discussions on this thread with intellectual gems like:






what did he mean in the video when he said "No coal plants in America"?  how hard is that?


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> what did he mean in the video when he said "No coal plants in America"? how hard is that?


At least as hard as you posting the quote and then the quote where he denied it.

Why can't you do that?  Your post accused him of denying something.  But you want me to explain stuff without clearly saying what he denied.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> At least as hard as you posting the quote and then the quote where he denied it.
> 
> Why can't you do that?  Your post accused him of denying something.  But you want me to explain stuff without clearly saying what he denied.





you don't have to explain anything. I heard him say in the debate last night that he did not say "NO coal plants in America" he did it's right on the video. I am very clear on that. You are the one who seems to have a question.


----------



## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> No you didn't. You asked me to "prove factcheck wrong". Pick one or stop wasting electrons.



choosing any of the topics on that site and showing it to be wrong would "prove factcheck wrong." you really are good at avoiding the issue. but here, since youre incapable of doing anything which isnt perfectly laid out:



> Palin repeated a falsehood that the McCain campaign has peddled, off and on, for some time:
> 
> Palin: But when you talk about Barack's plan to tax increase affecting only those making $250,000 a year or more, you're forgetting millions of small businesses that are going to fit into that category. So they're going to be the ones paying higher taxes thus resulting in fewer jobs being created and less productivity.
> 
> As we reported June 23, it's simply untrue that "millions" of small business owners will pay higher federal income taxes under Obama's proposal. According to an analysis by the independent Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, several hundred thousand small business owners, at most, would have incomes high enough to be affected by the higher rates on income, capital gains and dividends that Obama proposes. That counts as "small business owners" even those who merely have some sideline income from such endeavors as freelance writing, speaking or running rental properties, and who get the bulk of their income from employment elsewhere.



show where factcheck messed up


----------



## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> yeah, choosing any of the topics on that site and showing it to be wrong would "prove factcheck wrong." you really are good at avoiding the issue. but here, since youre incapable of doing anything which isnt percectly laid out:
> 
> Palin repeated a falsehood that the McCain campaign has peddled, off and on, for some time:
> 
> ...



you have the patience of a saint. where do i sign up to vote to have you canonized?


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> what did he mean in the video when he said "No coal plants in America"?





> you don't have to explain anything.



You ask me what he means then say I don't have to explain anything.  



> I heard him say in the debate last night that he did not say "NO coal plants in America"



And the reason you can't fulfill my request, is because as far as I can tell, he didn't say what you're claiming.  I'll make it easier.  Here's the link for a transcript of the debate.  Use the find feature in your browser and search for the word coal.  When you find the quote you're claiming, be sure and post it for me, because I missed it.  If you don't find it, and you have any sense of honor, you'll come back and admit you were wrong.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/index.html


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> You ask me what he means then say I don't have to explain anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





he said it, I'm clear, problem solved, sorry if I bothered you. The mulberry bush needs watering.


----------



## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> he said it, I'm clear, problem solved, sorry if I bothered you. The mulberry bush needs watering.



In other words, it isn't there.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> In other words, it isn't there.






your words not mine.


----------



## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> your words not mine.



why dont you just end this thing and give N4 the source


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

> yes, but I have'nt been indoctrinated at the alter of KOS, so I can be a little more objective.= Willowtree





> because you are deaf, dumb, blind, and indoctrinated.- Willowtree



It's not there.  And what better sign could there be of someone who is actually indoctrinated or at least more committed to their ideology than facts than not being able to admit your wrong even when all the facts are laid out in front of you.  Project much?


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> It's not there.  And what better sign could there be of someone who is actually indoctrinated or at least more committed to their ideology than facts than not being able to admit your wrong even when all the facts are laid out in front of you.  Project much?






no problem, no skin off my teeth, I am not wrong I heard it. Now, it is a well known fact that we hear and see things differently as evidenced by the responses to Palin's performance. It is definitely skewed on the left and echoed nicely from the halls of KOS and yes MSNBC too. Happy trails. And, don't forget the mulberry bush.


----------



## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

We don't read differently I don't believe.  I provided the transcript.  It is a well-known fact that we can hear things we expect to hear when otherwise there is nothing there.  Look up scientific/skeptical studies on backwards lyrics and EVP.  

You have no honor, sir.  You're not even being honest with yourself.  You besmirch the reputation of conservatives and since I know there are some thoughtful ones on the boards, I would not be surprised if they chastise you as well.  If you're not prepared to back up your statements, you should have the decency to refrain from attacking.  It is clear to everyone that the emperor has no clothes and I would encourage anyone to link to this exchange if they find you arguing with anyone else.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

N4mddissent said:


> We don't read differently I don't believe.  I provided the transcript.  It is a well-known fact that we can hear things we expect to hear when otherwise there is nothing there.  Look up scientific/skeptical studies on backwards lyrics and EVP.
> 
> You have no honor, sir.  You're not even being honest with yourself.  You besmirch the reputation of conservatives and since I know there are some thoughtful ones on the boards, I would not be surprised if they chastise you as well.  If you're not prepared to back up your statements, you should have the decency to refrain from attacking.  It is clear to everyone that the emperor has no clothes and I would encourage anyone to link to this exchange if they find you arguing with anyone else.






you are so silly, I haven't been chastised once. not once, except by your ilk. And, that's to be expected. Did you water the mullberry bush.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

btw, I'm watching the debate again, I will pay close attention.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

btw DUmmie, how many sirs do you know named WillowTree?


----------



## Modbert (Oct 3, 2008)

You know, I was wondering who McCain/Palin reminded me of then I remembered.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRmKzxhMzwo&feature=related]YouTube - Laverne & Shirley Show Opening[/ame]



> Were gonna do it!
> Give us any chance, well take it.
> Give us any rule, well break it.
> Were gonna make our dreams come true.
> Doin it our way.



Hey, that does sound like the McCain campaign.


----------



## Modbert (Oct 3, 2008)

Oh and Joe Lieberman can be Squiggy.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

so out of one side of his mouth he says he supports clean coal, his record he says supports clean coal, his statement he says was taken outta context. that he meant to export that technology to China. But the video shows otherwise. He did say he aimed to clean up china's coal but "NO Coal Plants in America." was clear. so clearly he does not support clean coal for America as an energy source.


----------



## Modbert (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so out of one side of his mouth he says he supports clean coal, his record he says supports clean coal, his statement he says was taken outta context. that he meant to export that technology to China. But the video shows otherwise. He did say he aimed to clean up china's coal but "NO Coal Plants in America." was clear. so clearly he does not support clean coal for America as an energy source.



Coal (not clean) is something that should used as a last resort or when things get really bad.

Using Coal while not looking towards other alternative energy resources will only find ourselves in a deeper hole in the future.

However, Joe Biden record shows his support of Clean Coal so he just made a small gaffe.


----------



## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

Robert_Santurri said:


> Coal (not clean) is something that should used as a last resort or when things get really bad.
> 
> Using Coal while not looking towards other alternative energy resources will only find ourselves in a deeper hole in the future.
> 
> However, Joe Biden record shows his support of Clean Coal so he just made a small gaffe.



She just got beat on that issue, actually... read back in this thread.


----------



## Modbert (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> She just got beat on that issue, actually... read back in this thread.



Oh I know, I looked back and read it and went oops, already been proven she got beat on it.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> She just got beat on that issue, actually... read back in this thread.






oh, that's telling, you think of this as "getting beat" I'm poud of ya. DUmmie


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

Robert_Santurri said:


> Oh I know, I looked back and read it and went oops, already been proven she got beat on it.



I didn't get beat on anything. He does not believe in clean coal for America.


----------



## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> DUmmie



Oh I get it... your effort at humor... 

sad, but at least you're trying.

And yes...game, set, match.


----------



## busara (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I didn't get beat on anything. He does not believe in clean coal for America.



link?




here we go again!


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> Oh I get it... your effort at humor...
> 
> sad, but at least you're trying.







it's not funnie at all, I feel sorry for ya


----------



## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

Robert_Santurri said:


> Oh I know, I looked back and read it and went oops, already been proven she got beat on it.



Told ya.


----------



## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> it's not funnie at all, I feel sorry for ya



I know you weren't funny. I was being charitable.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> link?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you go, I'm not going, I'm convinced. let me know what you find out.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> I know you weren't funny. I was being charitable.



now that was funny


----------



## Silence (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> you go, I'm not going, I'm convinced. let me know what you find out.



it's amazing that someone can still be convinced of something that has clearly been proven false.  

You're like those eye witnesses who even when confronted with DNA evidence that the person you are accusing is innocent that they are guilty.  

It's pathetic actually but not surprising.


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

Silence said:


> it's amazing that someone can still be convinced of something that has clearly been proven false.
> 
> You're like those eye witnesses who even when confronted with DNA evidence that the person you are accusing is innocent that they are guilty.
> 
> It's pathetic actually but not surprising.





Nothing was proven false idiot.


----------



## Modbert (Oct 3, 2008)

Silence said:


> it's amazing that someone can still be convinced of something that has clearly been proven false.
> 
> You're like those eye witnesses who even when confronted with DNA evidence that the person you are accusing is innocent that they are guilty.
> 
> It's pathetic actually but not surprising.



Silence, you want to know how I sum it up?




(Though I find Joe to be more of a XP then 2000 )


----------



## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

busara said:


> choosing any of the topics on that site and showing it to be wrong would "prove factcheck wrong." you really are good at avoiding the issue. but here, since youre incapable of doing anything which isnt perfectly laid out:
> 
> 
> 
> show where factcheck messed up


 

Simple logic will show that Palin was correct. I am a small business owner myself and my gross income is about 3 times higher than what I draw out of it every year. That's a low number compared to others that I know, and a lot lower than it was when I had 4 or 5 guys working for me. So it doesn't take much to get over that $250K mark.


----------



## JennyFever (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Simple logic will show that Palin was correct. I am a small business owner myself and my gross income is about 3 times higher than what I draw out of it every year. That's a low number compared to others that I know, and a lot lower than it was when I had 4 or 5 guys working for me. So it doesn't take much to get over that $250K mark.



Anecdotes don't count as proof.


----------



## mdjgirl7 (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> I think the lead in was that he didn't "get it"... you know, what it was like for real people.
> 
> And how many times did Palin use the word maverick? My favorite part was when he schmooshed her on that.
> 
> ...




Biden is very capable well that is debatable considering he had not been off the stage 10 min and it was being told he flat out lied about John McCain at least 10 times. Capable as VP no capable of lying yes. I expected more out of him quite frankly considering he has been in the senate for soooooooo long and knew soooo much more then Sarah Palin yet he bald face lies like it cant be checked he must think we are all fools. 

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. This chick is not fooled.


----------



## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

Interesting stuff...

Most of what I am reading confirmed what I already thought.  Palin did okay, basically because she stuck to her talking points.  She evaded most of the more difficult questions by asserting she was "talking to the American people."  Still, she did no harm to her ticket.

I am surprized that Biden was as controlled as he was.  I guess he was well trained in the art of "shutting up" before making a blooming fool of himself.  Through the years I have watched him take on many issues, especially foreign policy, and he has a good grasp of each.  But his tongue continually gets him in trouble.

Bottom line, we independent voters don't vote for the VP, but rather the President.


----------



## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

mdjgirl7 said:


> Biden is very capable well that is debatable considering he had not been off the stage 10 min and it was being told he flat out lied about John McCain at least 10 times. Capable as VP no capable of lying yes. I expected more out of him quite frankly considering he has been in the senate for soooooooo long and knew soooo much more then Sarah Palin yet he bald face lies like it cant be checked he must think we are all fools.
> 
> Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. This chick is not fooled.



Bummer you don't hold Sarah to the same standard.

FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate


----------



## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

JennyFever said:


> Anecdotes don't count as proof.


 Its a bit more than that. Its simple math. I could take home as little as $80K and still be taxed at the $250K level.


----------



## I Missthe North (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Debate poll says Biden won, Palin beat expectations - CNN.com
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me.



Seems like a pretty reasonable assessment to me.  I will say however; its not hard to exceed expectations when they are on the ground.  That is exactly where the expectations for Palin were after the last few weeks.


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

I Missthe North said:


> Seems like a pretty reasonable assessment to me.  I will say however; its not hard to exceed expectations when they are on the ground.  That is exactly where the expectations for Palin were after the last few weeks.


 The FNC poll has Palin winning by an overwhelming margin.


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## Isolde (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> The FNC poll has Palin winning by an overwhelming margin.



Drudge also had her way over the top.... sorry I haven't read the whole thread, I am probably repeating something that has already been said.


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> The FNC poll has Palin winning by an overwhelming margin.



DUH!
I AM FLOORED.  So basically, FOX's polls disagree with every other news media outlet in the US.  I think I can hear the pitter patter of the GOP  sheep running to see the FOX poll.


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> DUH!
> I AM FLOORED.  So basically, FOX's polls disagree with every other news media outlet in the US.  I think I can hear the pitter patter of the GOP  sheep running to see the FOX poll.



yes, and the monkey's are throwing shit over at MSNBC


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## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> DUH!
> I AM FLOORED.  So basically, FOX's polls disagree with every other news media outlet in the US.  I think I can hear the pitter patter of the GOP  sheep running to see the FOX poll.



you know it isn't true.. .he knows it isn't true.....







http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j30/fjf314/fox_news_poll.jpg


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## Toro (Oct 3, 2008)

This debate wasn't even close IMO.

I listened to most of the debate on the radio. If you had no idea who was whom, it sounded like it was a debate between a senator with 30 years of experience and a soccer mom. Which is what it was.

The press have been exceedingly nice to Palin today because they realize how out of her depth she is and they couldn't pile on.

Independents overwhelming broke for Biden by 2:1. Frankly, I didn't understand why it was higher.

This race is all but over. The Republicans are going to get slaughtered.


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> DUH!
> I AM FLOORED.  So basically, FOX's polls disagree with every other news media outlet in the US.  I think I can hear the pitter patter of the GOP  sheep running to see the FOX poll.


Since FNC has about equal the audience as CNN, NBC, CBS, and ABC combined, that means that the people voting in their polls were all Democrats.


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## I Missthe North (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> The FNC poll has Palin winning by an overwhelming margin.



You have a link to this poll?  I have heard conflicting statements.  Some say it was close, some say it was overwhelming and others say that Biden won.  I would like to be able to judge for myself.  Anyone have the link?  I looked and could not find it.


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> you know it isn't true.. .he knows it isn't true.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow citing a picture of a blog. Just when I thought your cred could get no lower. Why not just go to the FNC polling site?


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## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

I Missthe North said:


> You have a link to this poll?  I have heard conflicting statements.  Some say it was close, some say it was overwhelming and others say that Biden won.  I would like to be able to judge for myself.  Anyone have the link?  I looked and could not find it.



See post 136...


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

I guess with all the practice you have had in the last 8 years, it is easy to talk yourself into believing all is rosey and well.  You know, we are a bunch of "whiners" because the economy was strong.  That statement was made by McCain's former economic adviser oh...700 Million Dollars ago, eh?


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Since FNC has about equal the audience as CNN, NBC, CBS, and ABC combined, that means that the people voting in their polls were all Democrats.












sssssssssssssshhhhh you'll hurt their wittle fweeelings


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> I guess with all the practice you have had in the last 8 years, it is easy to talk yourself into believing all is rosey and well.  You know, we are a bunch of "whiners" because the economy was strong.  That statement was made by McCain's former economic adviser oh...700 Million Dollars ago, eh?





yea, just like Barney Franenstein told us thing at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were all hunky dory.


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## JimH52 (Oct 3, 2008)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/biden.palin.analysis/index.html#cnnSTCText



> "I may not answer the question the way you want to hear, but I'll talk straight to the American people and let them know my track record," Palin said.



Which interpreted means, "If the questions get hard or if I wasn't coached on them, then I will wink and give you my coach line, even if it is unrelated to the question."

She is hilarious!


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Judge won't stop Palin probe
> 
> 
> 
> ...





It worked too, see how smart she is?


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

I Missthe North said:


> You have a link to this poll?  I have heard conflicting statements.  Some say it was close, some say it was overwhelming and others say that Biden won.  I would like to be able to judge for myself.  Anyone have the link?  I looked and could not find it.


 I just looked as well and couldn't find it. I'm going on memory, since I continued to watch after the debate last night and had a second martini as a little victory celebration, and turned off FNC after midnight, and their poll at that time was something like 84% Plain. It was a huge margin. But again, that's obviously slanted and not at all scientific.

As I've said earlier, the best indicator that I saw was from Frank Luntz, who had a group or 20 or so undecides, half leaning D, half R, first thing right after the debate before the spin machines did their thing, and the first question that he asked them was "who won?", and they were overwhelmingly for Palin.


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## jillian (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Wow citing a picture of a blog. Just when I thought your cred could get no lower. Why not just go to the FNC polling site?



Where do you think the results were?  You misrepresent the results and you complain that I found the correct one? lol.. too funny


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## N4mddissent (Oct 3, 2008)

You can watch it all you want.  It's not there.


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## WillowTree (Oct 3, 2008)

glockmail said:


> I just looked as well and couldn't find it. I'm going on memory, since I continued to watch after the debate last night and had a second martini as a little victory celebration, and turned off FNC after midnight, and their poll at that time was something like 84% Plain. It was a huge margin. But again, that's obviously slanted and not at all scientific.
> 
> As I've said earlier, the best indicator that I saw was from Frank Luntz, who had a group or 20 or so undecides, half leaning D, half R, first thing right after the debate before the spin machines did their thing, and the first question that he asked them was "who won?", and they were overwhelmingly for Palin.



I just went over to search for it. It looks like it may still be open.

Look under interactive tools.
Home - FOXNews.com Elections


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## greenpartyaz (Oct 3, 2008)

I think Biden took this one home. As for Palin, she was better rehersed in her script that she was given to read. Biden was long-winded, and Palin was a rambling mess! Overall Biden just edged her out.


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I just went over to search for it. It looks like it may still be open.
> 
> Look under interactive tools.
> Home - FOXNews.com Elections



I can't get the link to work.


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## glockmail (Oct 3, 2008)

jillian said:


> Where do you think the results were?  You misrepresent the results and you complain that I found the correct one? lol.. too funny


 Where did I misrepresent the results? What you found was a picture from a blog. Not even the blog, but a picture of one. I'm going by memory. Prove me wrong, babe. Here's your chance to score a point.


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## The BKP (Oct 3, 2008)

Having become fodder for late night monologues and inspiring mockery and disdain from the Left and its media mavens, America held its breath as the hockey mom-cum-Governor-cum-would-be-vice president walked on to the stage last night. 

Was she the female embodiment of conservative intellectual substance and probity as so many on the Right earnestly hoped? Or was she nothing more than a highly attractive, but ultimately vacuous trophy candidate able to deliver only prescripted remarks and speeches as the Left insisted? 

To the chagrin of her detractors, the delight of her supporters and the reassurance of the weak of faith, the hockey mom took out her goalie stick and ably deflected repeated shots on goal fired at her from both the debate moderator, Gwen Ifill and her Democratic opponent, Senator Joe Biden of Delaware. 

Going from the political equivalent of the regional farm team to starting in the Stanley Cup Finals in little over a month, Palin acquitted herself with an acuity and agility that belied the lingering impressions of her previous limited forays onto the thin ice with the bruising media. In the process of delivering smiling body checks on her opponent, Palin left no doubt that should the Republican team not win the title, it would not be for lack of commitment, heart or effort on her part.


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## MichaelCollins (Oct 3, 2008)

How can having zero knowledge about any important subject..other than hockey moms...and being a hillbilly... be exceeding expectations?

She learn the names of the Pakistan and North Korean leaders last week...is that sufficient qualification for being an elderly midget heartbeat away from running your country? 

What did you expect to happen?  It was an utter train crash... americans must have very low standards..if that was acceptable.


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## greenpartyaz (Oct 3, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> How can having zero knowledge about any important subject..other than hockey moms...and being a hillbilly... be exceeding expectations?
> 
> She learn the names of the Pakistan and North Korean leaders last week...is that sufficient qualification for being an elderly midget heartbeat away from running your country?
> 
> What did you expect to happen?  It was an utter train crash... americans must have very low standards..if that was acceptable.



Your partially right on Palin. But if you see Winston Churchill, you can tell him to "kiss my ass!"


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## glockmail (Oct 9, 2008)

> 10/08/2008
> 
> If Sarah Palin had made just one of the wildly inaccurate statements smugly uttered by Sen. Joe Biden in last week's vice presidential debate, there would have been 3-inch headlines in newspapers across America. (I can almost hear Katie Couric asking me, "Which newspapers?")
> 
> ...


 Pull The Hair Plug On This Guy - HUMAN EVENTS


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## MichaelCollins (Oct 9, 2008)

The BKP said:


> Having become fodder for late night monologues and inspiring mockery and disdain from the Left and its media mavens, America held its breath as the hockey mom-cum-Governor-cum-would-be-vice president walked on to the stage last night.
> 
> Was she the female embodiment of conservative intellectual substance and probity as so many on the Right earnestly hoped? Or was she nothing more than a highly attractive, but ultimately vacuous trophy candidate able to deliver only prescripted remarks and speeches as the Left insisted?
> 
> ...




If you think that this was a performance of substance... it says all that we need to know about you.


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## glockmail (Oct 9, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> If you think that this was a performance of substance... it says all that we need to know about you.


 Since your sig is a lie- who cares what you say otherwise?


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## MichaelCollins (Oct 9, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Since your sig is a lie- who cares what you say otherwise?



Ah..but it isnt a lie is it?

There is ONLY one way to measure national contribution to developing nations...and that is %GDP.

There is no other measurement.

And guess what?  The US at 0.16% is last ... and it is light years from the Millennium goals agreed target of 0.7% (but i am guessing you dont even know what the Millennium goals are).

Now why do you think that Millennium goals set a target of 0.7% GDP and not say a random $10 billion dollars each??

LMAO  ..this is too easy.


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## glockmail (Oct 10, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> Ah..but it isnt a lie is it?
> 
> There is ONLY one way to measure national contribution to developing nations...and that is %GDP.
> 
> ...





> the US leads the world in private charitable donations with 1.67% of GDP nearly twice the private contributions of the UK.
> 
> add that to the official or government sponsored aid of .18% GDP and you'll see that the US trumps every other country in the world for total charitable giving.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/826026-post556.html

Again your lie is exposed yet I predict you will continue to repeat it.

No matter as when sharia law takes effect don't expect us to rescue your limey asses a third time.


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