# Falmouth Mass may dismantle wind turbines due to illnesses



## Ernie S.

> Two wind turbines towering above the Cape Cod community of Falmouth, Mass., were intended to produce green energy and savings -- but they've created angst and division, and may now be removed at a high cost as neighbors complain of noise and illness.
> 
> "It gets to be jet-engine loud," said Falmouth resident Neil Andersen. He and his wife Betsy live just a quarter mile from one of the turbines. They say the impact on their health has been devastating. They're suffering headaches, dizziness and sleep deprivation and often seek to escape the property where they've lived for more than 20 years.



Read more: Cape Cod community considers taking down wind turbines after illness, noise | Fox News

So it's not only songbirds and eagles being harmed by the monstrosities?


----------



## Mr. H.




----------



## Ernie S.

Where are all the Warmists?


----------



## RGR

Ernie S. said:


> So it's not only songbirds and eagles being harmed by the monstrosities?



I think it is only fair that the people complaining be offered the alternative world without electricity, anything derived from natural gas or crude oil, nukes, or any of the other mechanisms that humankind has used to make a better life for themselves.

Those who choose this alternative should be moved at taxpayer expense to a place where they can live just this way, in peace and silence and harmony. Heck, we could even designate Amish country in Pennsylvania for these folks, and they could run off and be happy.

But I'm guessing these folks drive cars, use electricity, pharmaceuticals, plastic, fly upon occasion....yup....they only bitch when someone dares to put the cost of their lifestyle directly in front of them, only THEN do they bitch.


----------



## Ernie S.

So you're OK with making people sick if it suits your agenda?
But killing babies is "choice"?

How about YOU moving to some place with ONLY "alternative energy". We are happy with a functional power grid. 

Until you can supply my energy needs with your green energy, leave me the hell alone.


----------



## RGR

Ernie S. said:


> So you're OK with making people sick if it suits your agenda?
> But killing babies is "choice"?



People aren't getting sick because of nearby windmills. They are CLAIMING they are getting sick because of the windmills. Quite a difference. 

And also quite common among the NIMBY set, the first line of defense in the modern world to something you disagree with is to find some basis to file a lawsuit. Sickness is a good one, psychological damage from noise (ever been within 1/4 mile of a wind turbine? I have...not sure I could even hear the blades moving to be honest, maybe a sort of hum? Low frequency kind of thing?), just take whatever the high voltage power line folks have been pretending ails them all these years and say the same things.

Problem solved.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's not only songbirds and eagles being harmed by the monstrosities?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is only fair that the people complaining be offered the alternative world without electricity, anything derived from natural gas or crude oil, nukes, or any of the other mechanisms that humankind has used to make a better life for themselves.
> 
> Those who choose this alternative should be moved at taxpayer expense to a place where they can live just this way, in peace and silence and harmony. Heck, we could even designate Amish country in Pennsylvania for these folks, and they could run off and be happy.
> 
> But I'm guessing these folks drive cars, use electricity, pharmaceuticals, plastic, fly upon occasion....yup....they only bitch when someone dares to put the cost of their lifestyle directly in front of them, only THEN do they bitch.
Click to expand...

We get about half our electricity from fossil fuels.  

Go to your house's electrical service panel and switch off every other breaker.

You can turn them back on when "green" sources have the capability to directly replace fossil fuels.  

It's only fair, right?  Or are you going to bitch when someone dares put the cost of the lifestyle you want to dictate on everyone directly in front of you?


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you're OK with making people sick if it suits your agenda?
> But killing babies is "choice"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People aren't getting sick because of nearby windmills. They are CLAIMING they are getting sick because of the windmills. Quite a difference.
> 
> And also quite common among the NIMBY set, the first line of defense in the modern world to something you disagree with is to find some basis to file a lawsuit. Sickness is a good one, psychological damage from noise (ever been within 1/4 mile of a wind turbine? I have...not sure I could even hear the blades moving to be honest, maybe a sort of hum? Low frequency kind of thing?), just take whatever the high voltage power line folks have been pretending ails them all these years and say the same things.
> 
> Problem solved.
Click to expand...

You don't get to dictate how other people live their lives.

I know that comes as a shock to you.  Take a deep breath.


----------



## jon_berzerk

daveman said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's not only songbirds and eagles being harmed by the monstrosities?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is only fair that the people complaining be offered the alternative world without electricity, anything derived from natural gas or crude oil, nukes, or any of the other mechanisms that humankind has used to make a better life for themselves.
> 
> Those who choose this alternative should be moved at taxpayer expense to a place where they can live just this way, in peace and silence and harmony. Heck, we could even designate Amish country in Pennsylvania for these folks, and they could run off and be happy.
> 
> But I'm guessing these folks drive cars, use electricity, pharmaceuticals, plastic, fly upon occasion....yup....they only bitch when someone dares to put the cost of their lifestyle directly in front of them, only THEN do they bitch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We get about half our electricity from fossil fuels.
> 
> Go to your house's electrical service panel and switch off every other breaker.
> 
> You can turn them back on when "green" sources have the capability to directly replace fossil fuels.
> 
> It's only fair, right?  Or are you going to bitch when someone dares put the cost of the lifestyle you want to dictate on everyone directly in front of you?
Click to expand...


why stop there 

they also do not like hydro electric nor nuclear power 

taking that into account they should flip the breakers 

on all but one breaker 

with that breaker being the lowest amperage


----------



## daveman

jon_berzerk said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is only fair that the people complaining be offered the alternative world without electricity, anything derived from natural gas or crude oil, nukes, or any of the other mechanisms that humankind has used to make a better life for themselves.
> 
> Those who choose this alternative should be moved at taxpayer expense to a place where they can live just this way, in peace and silence and harmony. Heck, we could even designate Amish country in Pennsylvania for these folks, and they could run off and be happy.
> 
> But I'm guessing these folks drive cars, use electricity, pharmaceuticals, plastic, fly upon occasion....yup....they only bitch when someone dares to put the cost of their lifestyle directly in front of them, only THEN do they bitch.
> 
> 
> 
> We get about half our electricity from fossil fuels.
> 
> Go to your house's electrical service panel and switch off every other breaker.
> 
> You can turn them back on when "green" sources have the capability to directly replace fossil fuels.
> 
> It's only fair, right?  Or are you going to bitch when someone dares put the cost of the lifestyle you want to dictate on everyone directly in front of you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> why stop there
> 
> they also do not like hydro electric nor nuclear power
> 
> taking that into account they should flip the breakers
> 
> on all but one breaker
> 
> with that breaker being the lowest amperage
Click to expand...

No, no, no...they get to live however they want.  Everyone ELSE has to alter their lifestyle to meet their demands.

Right, RGR?


----------



## jon_berzerk

daveman said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We get about half our electricity from fossil fuels.
> 
> Go to your house's electrical service panel and switch off every other breaker.
> 
> You can turn them back on when "green" sources have the capability to directly replace fossil fuels.
> 
> It's only fair, right?  Or are you going to bitch when someone dares put the cost of the lifestyle you want to dictate on everyone directly in front of you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why stop there
> 
> they also do not like hydro electric nor nuclear power
> 
> taking that into account they should flip the breakers
> 
> on all but one breaker
> 
> with that breaker being the lowest amperage
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, no, no...they get to live however they want.  Everyone ELSE has to alter their lifestyle to meet their demands.
> 
> Right, RGR?
Click to expand...


yeah that is about right --LOL

i was reading link earlier about Terra-Gen windmills and their bird  killing problems

they have decided to prevent  condor strikes 

the farm will be fitted with a kill switch 

when a condor with a radio collar 

gets within 16 miles of the farm the radio signal will shut the farm down 

between brown outs and condor outs folks out that way might want to 

invest in a few candles 

--LOL


----------



## daveman

jon_berzerk said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> 
> why stop there
> 
> they also do not like hydro electric nor nuclear power
> 
> taking that into account they should flip the breakers
> 
> on all but one breaker
> 
> with that breaker being the lowest amperage
> 
> 
> 
> No, no, no...they get to live however they want.  Everyone ELSE has to alter their lifestyle to meet their demands.
> 
> Right, RGR?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah that is about right --LOL
> 
> i was reading link earlier about Terra-Gen windmills and their bird  killing problems
> 
> they have decided to prevent  condor strikes
> 
> the farm will be fitted with a kill switch
> 
> when a condor with a radio collar
> 
> gets within 16 miles of the farm the radio signal will shut the farm down
> 
> between brown outs and condor outs folks out that way might want to
> 
> invest in a few candles
> 
> --LOL
Click to expand...

  That's dumber'n hell.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> Go to your house's electrical service panel and switch off every other breaker.
> 
> You can turn them back on when "green" sources have the capability to directly replace fossil fuels.
> 
> It's only fair, right?  Or are you going to bitch when someone dares put the cost of the lifestyle you want to dictate on everyone directly in front of you?



It is only fair, and of COURSE I won't bitch!! But I'll do you one better....for starters the time to whine like a school girl isn't AFTER the turbines go up to provide a given group of people with the largesse they enjoy while dodging their involvement in the grubby business of making the world go round, it is BEFORE.

And while 1/2 of the AVERAGE persons power from the grid comes in based on fossil fuels, some of us are on the right side of that average. If it wasn't for making the choice to use good ol' fashioned produced right here in the USA domestic power to fill the batteries on our cars (and if I forgo A/C in the summer) I might not need ANY electricity from the grid, on an annual basis.

So my choice comes down to using imported expensive liquid fuels funding various jihadists, or using produced right here in the U S of A electricity to fuel my car, and not being able to disconnect from the grid just yet.

But I have hope!! Certainly taking control of ones power is central to anyone placing a priority on personal responsibility, unlike those happy to just take all the grid power and then bitch like school girls when it turns out it happens near them. I'm perfectly happy to live right next to my power generation....no problem!! Hell, I already live right beside the well, refinery and transportation system which puts fuel in my car!!


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> You don't get to dictate how other people live their lives.



Again, true. But people don't get to BITCH about how they live their lives when confronted by the COSTS of how they live their lives.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> No, no, no...they get to live however they want.  Everyone ELSE has to alter their lifestyle to meet their demands.
> 
> Right, RGR?



People do get to live however they want. They just don't get to BITCH when confronted by  what it takes to make that possible.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go to your house's electrical service panel and switch off every other breaker.
> 
> You can turn them back on when "green" sources have the capability to directly replace fossil fuels.
> 
> It's only fair, right?  Or are you going to bitch when someone dares put the cost of the lifestyle you want to dictate on everyone directly in front of you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is only fair, and of COURSE I won't bitch!! But I'll do you one better....for starters the time to whine like a school girl isn't AFTER the turbines go up to provide a given group of people with the largesse they enjoy while dodging their involvement in the grubby business of making the world go round, it is BEFORE.
Click to expand...

Question:  

How do you hear a turbine and feel the effects it produces BEFORE it's built?


RGR said:


> And while 1/2 of the AVERAGE persons power from the grid comes in based on fossil fuels, some of us are on the right side of that average.


And others are 100% dependent on fossil fuels.  

You're awfully quick to volunteer them to sit in the cold and dark to further your agenda.


RGR said:


> If it wasn't for making the choice to use good ol' fashioned produced right here in the USA domestic power to fill the batteries on our cars (and if I forgo A/C in the summer) I might not need ANY electricity from the grid, on an annual basis.
> 
> So my choice comes down to using imported expensive liquid fuels funding various jihadists, or using produced right here in the U S of A electricity to fuel my car, and not being able to disconnect from the grid just yet.
> 
> But I have hope!! Certainly taking control of ones power is central to anyone placing a priority on personal responsibility, unlike those happy to just take all the grid power and then bitch like school girls when it turns out it happens near them. I'm perfectly happy to live right next to my power generation....no problem!! Hell, I already live right beside the well, refinery and transportation system which puts fuel in my car!!


And if the well and refinery were putting out toxic fumes that sickened you, would you bitch like a school girl?

Hint:  Yes.  Yes, you would.

You don't get to decide that the problems other people have are less important than you feeling smug about saving the planet.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to dictate how other people live their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, true. But people don't get to BITCH about how they live their lives when confronted by the COSTS of how they live their lives.
Click to expand...

Ummm...yes, they do.  I don't know if you're from America or not, but we have the freedom of speech here.

People can say what they want -- even if it hurts someone's widdle feewings.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, no, no...they get to live however they want.  Everyone ELSE has to alter their lifestyle to meet their demands.
> 
> Right, RGR?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People do get to live however they want. They just don't get to BITCH when confronted by  what it takes to make that possible.
Click to expand...

So...they should just STFU and put up with headaches, dizziness and sleep deprivation and not being able to enjoy their property...because they use electricity?


Ummm...no.  Fix the turbines to alleviate the adverse health effects, or take 'em down.  

You don't get to make that decision for them.  You really need to understand that.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> Question:
> 
> How do you hear a turbine and feel the effects it produces BEFORE it's built?



The same way I did. Admittedly, I am a naturally curious guy, but when taking personal responsibility for my energy use sometimes it requires tremendous effort! In the case of the windmills,I got off the interstate, drove up to the base of one of these monsters, and just sat there and was amazed by it. These are about 400 miles away from my house, so you can't say I didn't give it a good college try! The dumbasses who are now complaining could have sure done the same.

Smoky Hills Wind Farm - I-70 in Kansas



			
				Daveman said:
			
		

> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> And while 1/2 of the AVERAGE persons power from the grid comes in based on fossil fuels, some of us are on the right side of that average.
> 
> 
> 
> And others are 100% dependent on fossil fuels.
Click to expand...


Like I said, personal responsibility, a lost art in America. One which we should get back to, but those who can't be bothered with due diligence don't get to BITCH about how the demand they are creating is supplied.



			
				Daveman said:
			
		

> You're awfully quick to volunteer them to sit in the cold and dark to further your agenda.



My agenda is that of personal responsibility. They want to sit in the cold and dark? Certainly I don't care if that is what they want to do. Conversely, I also don't object to them sitting in the light and heat...I only object to them bitching about what the world does to give them what they want as though they bear no personal responsibility.



			
				Daveman said:
			
		

> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, I already live right beside the well, refinery and transportation system which puts fuel in my car!!
> 
> 
> 
> And if the well and refinery were putting out toxic fumes that sickened you, would you bitch like a school girl?
> 
> Hint:  Yes.  Yes, you would.
Click to expand...


Fortunately windmills don't give off toxic fumes so that certainly can't be the bitch from the NIMBYs now can it? As far as living near a REAL refinery versus the kind I have creating fuel for my car, the solution is obvious. Don't live near the refinery if you don't want to be bothered by it. The NIMBYs can do the same with windmills, but they don't have to obviously because they aren't putting off toxic fumes.



			
				Daveman said:
			
		

> You don't get to decide that the problems other people have are less important than you feeling smug about saving the planet.



I get to decide that people who want the benefit without the cost are clueless about where their lifestyle comes from and don't get to BITCH about it after they find out. But what they CAN do is not be hypocrites, but what are the odds that happening? Easy solution, doubt they ever even consider more than bitching. Hyperpocrites are like that.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> Ummm...yes, they do.  I don't know if you're from America or not, but we have the freedom of speech here.



Sure, but that doesn't include making up sicknesses generated from windmills. America is also litigious out the wazoo and their are no limits to the lengths to which the NIMBYs will go to try and escape the cost of their lifestyle.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> People can say what they want -- even if it hurts someone's widdle feewings.



Sure they can. They can even pretend to be sick and hope they can convince their neighbors to force the cost of their lifestyle on others.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> So...they should just STFU and put up with headaches, dizziness and sleep deprivation and not being able to enjoy their property...because they use electricity?
> 
> 
> Ummm...no.  Fix the turbines to alleviate the adverse health effects, or take 'em down.
> 
> You don't get to make that decision for them.  You really need to understand that.



I already understand why, and how, NIMBYs go about trying to change something that has already happened, like their being confronted with the cost of the benefit they wish to enjoy.

So of course I wouldn't make a decision for a NIMBY, I made it for myself, personal responsibility, lets not forget. But I won't declare hysterical consequences for my solar panels, I won't get dizzy because someone (me!) is making power MUCH closer than 1/4 mile to my bedroom, I won't whine to the paper and try and convince my neighbors to backup my story, no need. Understand the cost to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, and take responsibility for your part of it.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> How do you hear a turbine and feel the effects it produces BEFORE it's built?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same way I did. Admittedly, I am a naturally curious guy, but when taking personal responsibility for my energy use sometimes it requires tremendous effort! In the case of the windmills,I got off the interstate, drove up to the base of one of these monsters, and just sat there and was amazed by it. These are about 400 miles away from my house, so you can't say I didn't give it a good college try! The dumbasses who are now complaining could have sure done the same.
> 
> Smoky Hills Wind Farm - I-70 in Kansas
Click to expand...

And you know they're the SAME model turbines with the SAME airfoil shape and the SAME low-frequency harmonics...how, exactly?

Oh, that's right -- you don't.  You THINK you do -- but you don't.


RGR said:


> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And others are 100% dependent on fossil fuels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, personal responsibility, a lost art in America. One which we should get back to, but those who can't be bothered with due diligence don't get to BITCH about how the demand they are creating is supplied.
Click to expand...

You seem to have conveniently forgotten something:

The turbine manufacturers had a responsibility to build a safe product.

Apparently, they didn't.  

But whatever you do, don't blame them for making people sick!  You'll lose your Greener Than Thou street cred!


RGR said:


> My agenda is that of personal responsibility. They want to sit in the cold and dark? Certainly I don't care if that is what they want to do. Conversely, I also don't object to them sitting in the light and heat...I only object to them bitching about what the world does to give them what they want as though they bear no personal responsibility.


You sure an angry little dweeb.  

The turbines in the OP suck.  They need to be modified, or they need to come down.  "Making the local residents sick" is NOT an option.


RGR said:


> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if the well and refinery were putting out toxic fumes that sickened you, would you bitch like a school girl?
> 
> Hint:  Yes.  Yes, you would.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately windmills don't give off toxic fumes so that certainly can't be the bitch from the NIMBYs now can it? As far as living near a REAL refinery versus the kind I have creating fuel for my car, the solution is obvious. Don't live near the refinery if you don't want to be bothered by it. The NIMBYs can do the same with windmills, but they don't have to obviously because they aren't putting off toxic fumes.
Click to expand...

But they are making people sick.

And you WOULD bitch like a schoolgirl if your local refinery was making you sick.  I know it, you know it.  Be a man and admit it.


RGR said:


> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to decide that the problems other people have are less important than you feeling smug about saving the planet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get to decide that people who want the benefit without the cost are clueless about where their lifestyle comes from and don't get to BITCH about it after they find out. But what they CAN do is not be hypocrites, but what are the odds that happening? Easy solution, doubt they ever even consider more than bitching. Hyperpocrites are like that.
Click to expand...

What's hypocritical about not wanting to be sick and sleep-deprived?

Why do you refuse to hold the turbine manufacturer accountable for making a bad product?

In other words, what the hell is wrong with you?


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm...yes, they do.  I don't know if you're from America or not, but we have the freedom of speech here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but that doesn't include making up sicknesses generated from windmills. America is also litigious out the wazoo and their are no limits to the lengths to which the NIMBYs will go to try and escape the cost of their lifestyle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People can say what they want -- even if it hurts someone's widdle feewings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they can. They can even pretend to be sick and hope they can convince their neighbors to force the cost of their lifestyle on others.
Click to expand...

And you have proof they're lying, of course.

Wait -- what?  You DON'T have proof?  Just wishful thinking and a mindless need to defend crappy green energy "solutions"?

Well, then.  I think your horsecrap can safely be dismissed.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So...they should just STFU and put up with headaches, dizziness and sleep deprivation and not being able to enjoy their property...because they use electricity?
> 
> 
> Ummm...no.  Fix the turbines to alleviate the adverse health effects, or take 'em down.
> 
> You don't get to make that decision for them.  You really need to understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I already understand why, and how, NIMBYs go about trying to change something that has already happened, like their being confronted with the cost of the benefit they wish to enjoy.
> 
> So of course I wouldn't make a decision for a NIMBY, I made it for myself, personal responsibility, lets not forget. But I won't declare hysterical consequences for my solar panels, I won't get dizzy because someone (me!) is making power MUCH closer than 1/4 mile to my bedroom, I won't whine to the paper and try and convince my neighbors to backup my story, no need. Understand the cost to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, and take responsibility for your part of it.
Click to expand...


Then you oppose the EPA's new regulations on coal.  

Hey, people getting sick is just one of the costs to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, right?


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you're OK with making people sick if it suits your agenda?
> But killing babies is "choice"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People aren't getting sick because of nearby windmills. They are CLAIMING they are getting sick because of the windmills. Quite a difference.
> 
> And also quite common among the NIMBY set, the first line of defense in the modern world to something you disagree with is to find some basis to file a lawsuit. Sickness is a good one, psychological damage from noise (ever been within 1/4 mile of a wind turbine? I have...not sure I could even hear the blades moving to be honest, maybe a sort of hum? Low frequency kind of thing?), just take whatever the high voltage power line folks have been pretending ails them all these years and say the same things.
> 
> Problem solved.
Click to expand...


Nope.. Well documented that the noise levels from megaWatt wind turbines exceed MANY suggested levels.. At nominal speeds, it's equivalent to a turboprop commuter plane.. 

EXCEPT --- it doesn't go away in a minute or an hour.. Widely accepted that wildlife within a couple mile radius WILL BE AFFECTED.. 

So the fledgling wind industry makes the same mistakes in siting these useless gimmicks that the nuclear industry did back in the 50s and 60s.. Seems like anything deemed clean and green gets NO scrutiny or impact analysis.. 

SITING IS AN ISSUE ---- and any current installations that violate OSHA or other recommendation levels should be removed..


----------



## jon_berzerk

*Noise pollution*

Little Raith Wind Farm

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79aARWPalt4]Wind Turbine Noise - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm...yes, they do.  I don't know if you're from America or not, but we have the freedom of speech here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but that doesn't include making up sicknesses generated from windmills. America is also litigious out the wazoo and their are no limits to the lengths to which the NIMBYs will go to try and escape the cost of their lifestyle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People can say what they want -- even if it hurts someone's widdle feewings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they can. They can even pretend to be sick and hope they can convince their neighbors to force the cost of their lifestyle on others.
Click to expand...


What you did to "listen" to a wind turbine was laudible but very unscientific.. 
These things have enough power to establish beat frequencies and modulate each other, making the sounds very unpredictable and annoying.. 



> Wind farm noise does harm sleep and health, say scientists - Telegraph
> 
> Wind farm noise causes &#8220;clear and significant&#8221; damage to people&#8217;s sleep and mental
> health, according to the first full peer-reviewed scientific study of the problem.
> 
> *Unlike some common forms of sleep-disturbing noise, such as roads, wind turbine
> noise varies dramatically, depending on the wind direction and speed. Unlike other
> forms of variable noise, however, such as railways and aircraft, it can continue
> for very long periods at a time. *The nature of the noise &#8212; a rhythmic beating or swooshing of the blades &#8212; is also disturbing. UK planning guidance allows a night-time noise level from wind farms of 42 decibels &#8211; equivalent to the hum made by a fridge.
> 
> This means that turbines cannot be built less than 380-550 yards from human
> habitation, with the exact distance depending on the terrain and the size of the
> turbines.
> 
> However, as local concern about wind farm noise grows, many councils are now
> drawing up far wider cordons. Wiltshire, for instance, has recently voted to adopt
> minimum distances of between 0.6 to 1.8 miles, depending on the size of the
> turbines.



Probably wise eh?? REASONABLE people wouldn't object to health standards determined by scientific method ------ would they?

Insisting it's all imagined or "made up" for political reasons isn't gonna fly..


----------



## daveman

daveman said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So...they should just STFU and put up with headaches, dizziness and sleep deprivation and not being able to enjoy their property...because they use electricity?
> 
> 
> Ummm...no.  Fix the turbines to alleviate the adverse health effects, or take 'em down.
> 
> You don't get to make that decision for them.  You really need to understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I already understand why, and how, NIMBYs go about trying to change something that has already happened, like their being confronted with the cost of the benefit they wish to enjoy.
> 
> So of course I wouldn't make a decision for a NIMBY, I made it for myself, personal responsibility, lets not forget. But I won't declare hysterical consequences for my solar panels, I won't get dizzy because someone (me!) is making power MUCH closer than 1/4 mile to my bedroom, I won't whine to the paper and try and convince my neighbors to backup my story, no need. Understand the cost to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, and take responsibility for your part of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you oppose the EPA's new regulations on coal.
> 
> Hey, people getting sick is just one of the costs to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, right?
Click to expand...

Ummm...where'd he go?


----------



## flacaltenn

daveman said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already understand why, and how, NIMBYs go about trying to change something that has already happened, like their being confronted with the cost of the benefit they wish to enjoy.
> 
> So of course I wouldn't make a decision for a NIMBY, I made it for myself, personal responsibility, lets not forget. But I won't declare hysterical consequences for my solar panels, I won't get dizzy because someone (me!) is making power MUCH closer than 1/4 mile to my bedroom, I won't whine to the paper and try and convince my neighbors to backup my story, no need. Understand the cost to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, and take responsibility for your part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you oppose the EPA's new regulations on coal.
> 
> Hey, people getting sick is just one of the costs to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ummm...where'd he go?
Click to expand...


He's driving back that 400 miles to camp out under stars beneath those lovely turbines.. 
Hope he doesn't get sprinkled with bat bodies or raptor guts.. ... and that he gets a good night's sleep...


----------



## whitehall

The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> And you know they're the SAME model turbines with the SAME airfoil shape and the SAME low-frequency harmonics...how, exactly?



I don't. Anymore than I know that those whining about being near power lines were only whining about a particular KIND of power line, you know how voltages change the low level hum to another kind of low level hum, one not being near as annoying as the other.

The problem isn't the alleged noise making people sick of course, but how NIMBYs complain to get their way.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> You seem to have conveniently forgotten something:
> 
> The turbine manufacturers had a responsibility to build a safe product.
> 
> Apparently, they didn't.



Apparently they did. I haven't seen a single person bashed upside the head by one of those blades yet. Those boys built a wonderful thing, keeps the blade way above the heads of any stupid humans wandering around in the neighborhood.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> You sure an angry little dweeb.



Nah. Just a low tolerance for whiners who eschew personal responsibility in their lifestyle choices.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> But they are making people sick.



No....people are CLAIMING that the windmills are making them sick. Just like people CLAIM that it is fracking chemicals in their water making them sick...except for the part about fracking not actually being in their water. 

Some just are gullible, and will use any excuse available to fight against <fill in your favorite>. In this case, we've got NIMBYs and windmills. They are hardly the first to sudden "discover" sickness when something they don't like happens nearby.




			
				daveman said:
			
		

> What's hypocritical about not wanting to be sick and sleep-deprived?



Nothing. The hypocritical part relates to those who bitch about that which provides them the position to bitch from.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Well documented that the noise levels from megaWatt wind turbines exceed MANY suggested levels.. At nominal speeds, it's equivalent to a turboprop commuter plane..



Really? Interesting....then why can't they be heard very easily when you stand next to them? Are the sounds measured right next to the main section where the blades tie together, up high, rather than where I stand on the ground listening to them?


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> These things have enough power to establish beat frequencies and modulate each other, making the sounds very unpredictable and annoying..



So how long would I have to stand at the base of one of these things to be able to hear these noises that Daveman says are happening 24/7 and causing people to claim sickness from it?

If I stand in the middle of a bunch of them will there be a better chance I can hear them? I regularly pass by the wind farm in Salinas Kansas, I can get beside quite a few of them next time and check out this theory, them being intermittent in noise emissions, and only occasionally annoying. Of course, I have to be able to hear them first, of course.


----------



## RGR

whitehall said:


> The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.



Unless of course you measure success by megawatt age, in which case the 60,000 megawatts generated in 2012 sure counts as something other than a freaking failure!! Somebody sure didn't object to running their refrigerator, turning on their lights, or in my case fueling my car!!


----------



## Ernie S.

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> These things have enough power to establish beat frequencies and modulate each other, making the sounds very unpredictable and annoying..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So how long would I have to stand at the base of one of these things to be able to hear these noises that Daveman says are happening 24/7 and causing people to claim sickness from it?
> 
> If I stand in the middle of a bunch of them will there be a better chance I can hear them? I regularly pass by the wind farm in Salinas Kansas, I can get beside quite a few of them next time and check out this theory, them being intermittent in noise emissions, and only occasionally annoying. Of course, I have to be able to hear them first, of course.
Click to expand...


I suggest you camp amid the turbines for 6 months to get the full effect that residents nearby get 24/7/365.
A casual drive and 10 minutes spent there doesn't qualify you to speak about what these people experience all the time.


----------



## Ernie S.

RGR said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless of course you measure success by megawatt age, in which case the 60,000 megawatts generated in 2012 sure counts as something other than a freaking failure!! Somebody sure didn't object to running their refrigerator, turning on their lights, or in my case fueling my car!!
Click to expand...


the US used 3,886,400,000 megawatts of electrical power in 2012. You are talking 1 MW in 65,000, statistically insignificant. You would need a wind farm the size of Texas to supply the needs of the country, if you could depend of 365 windy days/year state wide.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you know they're the SAME model turbines with the SAME airfoil shape and the SAME low-frequency harmonics...how, exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't. Anymore than I know that those whining about being near power lines were only whining about a particular KIND of power line, you know how voltages change the low level hum to another kind of low level hum, one not being near as annoying as the other.
> 
> The problem isn't the alleged noise making people sick of course, but how NIMBYs complain to get their way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to have conveniently forgotten something:
> 
> The turbine manufacturers had a responsibility to build a safe product.
> 
> Apparently, they didn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apparently they did. I haven't seen a single person bashed upside the head by one of those blades yet. Those boys built a wonderful thing, keeps the blade way above the heads of any stupid humans wandering around in the neighborhood.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. Just a low tolerance for whiners who eschew personal responsibility in their lifestyle choices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But they are making people sick.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No....people are CLAIMING that the windmills are making them sick. Just like people CLAIM that it is fracking chemicals in their water making them sick...except for the part about fracking not actually being in their water.
> 
> Some just are gullible, and will use any excuse available to fight against <fill in your favorite>. In this case, we've got NIMBYs and windmills. They are hardly the first to sudden "discover" sickness when something they don't like happens nearby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's hypocritical about not wanting to be sick and sleep-deprived?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing. The hypocritical part relates to those who bitch about that which provides them the position to bitch from.
Click to expand...

In summary:

These people criticized something you support, so you decide they're lying, and even if they are getting sick, they DESERVE it.

That about cover it, you self-important little prick?


----------



## whitehall

RGR said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless of course you measure success by megawatt age, in which case the 60,000 megawatts generated in 2012 sure counts as something other than a freaking failure!! Somebody sure didn't object to running their refrigerator, turning on their lights, or in my case fueling my car!!
Click to expand...


"Success by megawatt age"? What the hell does that mean? The 60k megawatts produced on a good day with support from fossil fuel is a freaking failure by the standards we set for energy efficiency. When you factor in the evidence that the monster windmills actually kill migratory species and might cause illness to persons who live nearby it is a disaster.


----------



## RGR

whitehall said:


> Unless of course you measure success by megawattage, in which case the 60,000 megawatts generated in 2012 sure counts as something other than a freaking failure!! Somebody sure didn't object to running their refrigerator, turning on their lights, or in my case fueling my car!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Success by megawatt age"? What the hell does that mean?
Click to expand...


Sorry. Megawattage.



			
				whitehall said:
			
		

> The 60k megawatts produced on a good day with support from fossil fuel is a freaking failure by the standards we set for energy efficiency.



We? You have a frog in your pocket? Because to me, as a consumer, that 60,000 megawatts is 60,000 megawatts of fuel for cars which won't be funding jihadists. Lower efficiency in some academic sense which involves not getting an American soldier killed defending the oil fields of someone who hates us is a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

Lower efficiency but less of a need for dead American soldiers, please sir, can I have some more? How about, a BUNCH more?



			
				Whitehall said:
			
		

> When you factor in the evidence that the monster windmills actually kill migratory species and might cause illness to persons who live nearby it is a disaster.



No, a disaster is letting young Americans get shot at and killed because soccer moms think it is necessary to use 5000# of steel, rubber, glass and plastic on wheels to take Lil' Johnny to Little League practice. Supporting the domestic production of fuel for automobiles can almost under no circumstances be configured as a "disaster", versus the price america has paid by the morons who think it is a commie plot, people asking that they care, just a little, about no longer doing this.


----------



## RGR

Ernie S. said:


> I suggest you camp amid the turbines for 6 months to get the full effect that residents nearby get 24/7/365.



Well, apparently these things aren't 24/7, they are intermittent, and might require standing around or living there for quite some time to even notice. Why is it this doesn't sound like something capable of making people sick, if the noise from the turbine is so hard to hear, I might have to live there for 6 months to even NOTICE?



			
				Ernie S said:
			
		

> A casual drive and 10 minutes spent there doesn't qualify you to speak about what these people experience all the time.



And these people CLAIMING their symptoms are causal to proximity to wind turbines may not be telling the truth any more true than those claiming abduction by aliens.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> In summary:
> 
> These people criticized something you support, so you decide they're lying, and even if they are getting sick, they DESERVE it.
> 
> That about cover it, you self-important little prick?



Nope, thou of no reading comprehension and a desperate need to put words in the mouths of others. What I support is domestic energy production of all types, and windmills just happen to be one of those types, nothing special about it.

My animosity, having experienced it any many levels before and recognizing it in s split second, is directed toward NIMBYs.

Be they fracking NIMBYs, windmill NIMBYs, coal mining NIMBYs, railroad track NIMBYs, nuke plant NIMBYs, this particular subset of modern America has forgotten, nowadays may not even know, HOW America became a country of wealth and power, and how NIMBYs had nothing to do with it.

NIMBYism is nothing but those who would denigrate from a position only made possible by the very mechanisms they are denigrating. Hypocrites. Combined with the attitude of "I am owed" it leads to people saying whatever it takes to dodge their personal stake in the system they have profited so richly from.


----------



## flacaltenn

See this url 4 tech details of sound levels measured...

http://randacoustics.com/wind-turbi...-sound-quality/

[quote="RGR, post: 7930111"]





flacaltenn said:


> These things have enough power to establish beat frequencies and modulate each other, making the sounds very unpredictable and annoying..



So how long would I have to stand at the base of one of these things to be able to hear these noises that Daveman says are happening 24/7 and causing people to claim sickness from it?

If I stand in the middle of a bunch of them will there be a better chance I can hear them? I regularly pass by the wind farm in Salinas Kansas, I can get beside quite a few of them next time and check out this theory, them being intermittent in noise emissions, and only occasionally annoying. Of course, I have to be able to hear them first, of course.[/QUOTE]

So u r rejecting peer reviewed medical science and an audio demonstration AND expert testimony  from folks telling you that sum total noise is highly variable?  Do I have that right..?

Seems to me the best u could do from that position is to be a major enviro hypocrite.

instead u provide a personal anecdote from an unspecified observation period among unspecifiednsizes of wind turbines?  How stupid do u think I am?


----------



## Ernie S.

A wee bit of a conflict of interest I see. Only people who share your agenda could possibly get sick due to the product of some evil corporation. Silly hypocrite. Go away!


----------



## jon_berzerk

Ernie S. said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless of course you measure success by megawatt age, in which case the 60,000 megawatts generated in 2012 sure counts as something other than a freaking failure!! Somebody sure didn't object to running their refrigerator, turning on their lights, or in my case fueling my car!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the US used 3,886,400,000 megawatts of electrical power in 2012. You are talking 1 MW in 65,000, statistically insignificant. You would need a wind farm the size of Texas to supply the needs of the country, if you could depend of 365 windy days/year state wide.
Click to expand...


and not too windy 

too much wind shuts them down as well 

pretty fickle


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> Supporting the domestic production of fuel for automobiles can almost under no circumstances be configured as a "disaster"...



So, in addition to opposing the EPA's restrictions on CO2 aimed at crippling the coal industry, you also support drilling for American oil.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> In summary:
> 
> These people criticized something you support, so you decide they're lying, and even if they are getting sick, they DESERVE it.
> 
> That about cover it, you self-important little prick?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, thou of no reading comprehension and a desperate need to put words in the mouths of others. What I support is domestic energy production of all types, and windmills just happen to be one of those types, nothing special about it.
> 
> My animosity, having experienced it any many levels before and recognizing it in s split second, is directed toward NIMBYs.
> 
> Be they fracking NIMBYs, windmill NIMBYs, coal mining NIMBYs, railroad track NIMBYs, nuke plant NIMBYs, this particular subset of modern America has forgotten, nowadays may not even know, HOW America became a country of wealth and power, and how NIMBYs had nothing to do with it.
> 
> NIMBYism is nothing but those who would denigrate from a position only made possible by the very mechanisms they are denigrating. Hypocrites. Combined with the attitude of "I am owed" it leads to people saying whatever it takes to dodge their personal stake in the system they have profited so richly from.
Click to expand...

So, I was right.  They DESERVE to get sick.  

Look, Skippy, you don't get a say in things that happen outside your community.  I hope at least that your self-important rants provide you with some aerobic benefit, because that's ALL they're going to do.  Falmouth will do what it wants.  Your input is neither sought nor required; they will make the decision for themselves.

Do you perhaps begin to understand your absolute impotence here?  Is that why you're lashing out so emotionally?


----------



## flacaltenn

For those of you interested in the objective measurements and analysis of this problem --- here is an excellent summary... 

Wind turbine noise, an independent assessment | Rand Acoustics



> Wind turbines larger than one megawatt of rated power have become an unexpected surprise for many nearby residents by being much louder than expected. The sounds produced by blades, gearing, and generator are significantly louder and more noticeable as wind turbine size increases. Long blades create a distinctive aerodynamic sound as air shears off the trailing edge and tip. The sound character varies from a whoosh at low wind speeds to a jet plane that never lands at moderate and higher wind speeds. Blade-induced air vortices spinning off the tip may produce an audible thump as each blade sweeps past the mast. Thumping can become more pronounced at distance, described as sneakers in a dryer, when sounds from multiple turbines arrive at a listeners position simultaneously.
> 
> *Wind turbines are not synchronized and so thumps may arrive together or separately, creating an unpredictable or chaotic acoustic pattern. The sounds of large industrial wind turbines have been documented as clearly audible for miles. They are intrusive sounds that are uncharacteristic of a natural soundscape.*
> 
> Studies have shown that people respond to changes in sound level and sound character in a predictable manner. A noticeable change in sound level of 5 decibels (dB) may result in no response to sporadic complaints. An increase of 10 dB may yield widespread complaints,; a 15 dB increase threats of legal action.
> 
> *The strongest negative community response occurs with an increase of 20 dB or more, resulting in vigorous objections. Audible tones, variability in sound level, and an unnatural sound character can amplify the public response. For a distinctive or unpleasant sound, a small change in sound level, or the sound simply being audible, may provoke a strong community response. Community response can intensify further if sleep is disturbed and quality of life or property is degraded.*
> 
> Weather conditions influence the sound level generated and how it travels to nearby homes. Sound waves expand outward from the wind turbine with the higher frequencies attenuating at a faster rate than low frequencies. Locations beyond a few thousand feet may be dominated by low frequency sounds generated by the wind turbines. Wind turbulence and icing, both common in New England due to topography and latitude, increase aerodynamic noise from intensified or chaotic dynamic stall conditions along the blade surfaces. Atmospheric conditions at night and downwind enhance sound propagation toward the ground by increasing levels over longer distances. Wind turbines are elevated hundreds of feet to receive stronger winds yet winds down on the ground or in nearby valleys may be non-existent with correspondingly low background sound levels, accentuating the impact of the intrusive sounds.
> 
> Other professionals have developed thresholds, or criteria, for sound level to protect public health that may be applied to planning for wind turbine permitting. *Recommendations from Hayes McKenzie Partnership in 2006 limited maximum wind turbine sound levels at residences to 38 dBA and no more than 33 dBA when beating noises are audible when the turbines spin.*
> 
> *Dan Driscoll presented his analysis in 2009 (Environmental Stakeholder Roundtable on Wind Power, June 16, 2009) with a Composite Noise Rating analysis of 33 dBA to reduce rural community response to the level of sporadic complaints.*
> 
> *Michael Nissenbaum issued his findings in 2010 from his medical study at Mars Hill, recommending a 7000-foot setback for public health. *The World Health Organization published sound level thresholds of sleep disturbance and adverse health effects from peer-reviewed medical studies (Night Noise Guidelines for Europe, October 2009).
> 
> Our next column will compare our sound level versus distance data with these medical, health, and community response criteria and show what distances are necessary to protect public health.
> 
> Currently there is no effective, reliable noise mitigation for wind turbines of this size other than shutdown. Therefore, at this time it appears appropriate that proposed wind turbine sites should position wind turbines at least one mile away from residential properties and further for sites with more than one wind turbine. Smaller wind turbines (under one megawatt power rating) produce less noise than those currently being marketed and installed for grid power in Maine; these may be an option when distance is an issue.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> So u r rejecting peer reviewed medical science and an audio demonstration AND expert testimony  from folks telling you that sum total noise is highly variable?  Do I have that right..?



Of course you don't. I take your word for everything electrical, and if you tell me that windmills are so noisily powerful, but intermittent in nature, I believe you. Even though your representation of the noise is different from Daveman, who appears to want to believe that they make this noise all the time which makes people sick.

Having sat there and listened to these things, I have decided that if you say they are powerful noise makers, but intermittent, I now need to go eat lunch under them, or dinner, or camp there, or something.

You have to understand, a large part of what I do professionally nowadays involves real world testing of ideas, concepts, that sort of stuff, primarily from the academic perspective. So when someone says these things cause people to be sick from the noise they make, I expect to be able to walk up to one, eat a sandwich under that big swinging blade, and HEAR something annoying. Loud. SOMETHING.

On your word alone, I shall now endeavor to take more time the next time I try this experiment, and see if there is any sign whatsoever of these noises that NIMBYs are trying to use to discourage use of domestically generated electricity.


----------



## RGR

Ernie S. said:


> the US used 3,886,400,000 megawatts of electrical power in 2012. You are talking 1 MW in 65,000, statistically insignificant. You would need a wind farm the size of Texas to supply the needs of the country, if you could depend of 365 windy days/year state wide.



Good thing then that America is not so stupid as to rely on only a single source for electrical generation. And if all politics are local, the idea of power generation being similar strikes me as a much better idea than windmills anyway (I defend windmills because I defend all domestic power production).


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Supporting the domestic production of fuel for automobiles can almost under no circumstances be configured as a "disaster"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, in addition to opposing the EPA's restrictions on CO2 aimed at crippling the coal industry, you also support drilling for American oil.
Click to expand...


Are you kidding? Drilling for American oil is something I once did for a living. Nowadays I have expanded my horizon, in terms of what I support, and I support all domestic power generation of all sizes and shapes.

Windmills are okay. I like PV better. I'm a fan of natural gas if only because A) the sheer abundance of the stuff, and B) the cost of the stuff and C) it requires drilling to get it nowadays and I am partial to good old fashioned American know how and oil field work compared to the mamby pamby jobs most people seem to gravitate towards nowadays. 

Microgeneration anyone? That combined with panels on the roof and garage is probably the best near term solution in my book, and would cover my electrical needs including fueling the car.

Dad was a coal miner, so I can't object to coal much, and certainly I think oil is a dirty fuel rapidly becoming obsolete but it'll be around for awhile yet because the stuff is just so damn useful as a chemical feedstock to manufacture stuff from.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> So, I was right.  They DESERVE to get sick.



I certainly didn't say that. Perhaps that is why you are having such a tough time understanding the basics here, just read what is written, you don't have to make up some scheme of your own to overlay someone else's words.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> Look, Skippy, you don't get a say in things that happen outside your community.



I understand that completely. I have been offering an opinion on the NIMBYs, based on decades of experience dealing with them, nothing more.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> Do you perhaps begin to understand your absolute impotence here?  Is that why you're lashing out so emotionally?



I haven't been emotional since the age of 12. Well, not quite, my daughter being born was quite the experience.


----------



## RGR

Just found some of the NIMBYs! Wasn't hard.

Wind Turbine Syndrome!!

I like it!! Sounds like they are following the fracking NIMBY guide to the letter! Come up with a cool catch phrase, sounds all bad, like Munchhausen Syndrome...all medical even!

Wind Turbine Syndrome | Wind Turbine Syndrome in Massachusetts (again)

And look! Turns out, you can get this disease even without the wind turbines, it being one of those "all over" diseases, apparently related to just...living somewhere!! Just find something you live next to which isn't nice...like say a farm...no...can't be a farm...the cows make more noise than wind turbines do....maybe a forest? Yes! A forest! Only living near a forest...except...when the wind blows....then all the leaves rustling will cause this thing. Hell, I don't know, but it was written by someone expert!

Just pick a symptom and you too can have this disease! Sort of like...laziness! 

"Since publishing the book in late 2009, Pierpont has heard from people around the world who are discovering that Wind Turbine Syndrome is not confined to living in the shadow of industrial wind turbines. It turns out people suffer identical symptoms from living close to natural gas compressor stations, industrial sewage pumping stations, industrial air conditioners, and other power plants. In each case, low frequency noise and infrasound appear to be the chief disease-causing culprit&#8212;basically, Wind Turbine Syndrome without the turbines."


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So u r rejecting peer reviewed medical science and an audio demonstration AND expert testimony  from folks telling you that sum total noise is highly variable?  Do I have that right..?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you don't. I take your word for everything electrical, and if you tell me that windmills are so noisily powerful, but intermittent in nature, I believe you. Even though your representation of the noise is different from Daveman, who appears to want to believe that they make this noise all the time which makes people sick.
> 
> Having sat there and listened to these things, I have decided that if you say they are powerful noise makers, but intermittent, I now need to go eat lunch under them, or dinner, or camp there, or something.
> 
> You have to understand, a large part of what I do professionally nowadays involves real world testing of ideas, concepts, that sort of stuff, primarily from the academic perspective. So when someone says these things cause people to be sick from the noise they make, I expect to be able to walk up to one, eat a sandwich under that big swinging blade, and HEAR something annoying. Loud. SOMETHING.
> 
> On your word alone, I shall now endeavor to take more time the next time I try this experiment, and see if there is any sign whatsoever of these noises that NIMBYs are trying to use to discourage use of domestically generated electricity.
Click to expand...


Don't say I didn't warn you about the bird guts getting into your lunch..  And try and find some that are at 0.5MWatt and mixed with some monsters. 

Oh and bring the Excedrin and the ear plugs if you plan to spend the night..  

Oh and you might pack a bag with a change of clothes.. On a slow week --- you might have to wait a couple days for them to turn....   ROFLing...


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Don't say I didn't warn you about the bird guts getting into your lunch..  And try and find some that are at 0.5MWatt and mixed with some monsters.



I shall heed your advice and bring an umbrella. Or a tent. Or something to protect me from the legions of dead animals falling from the sky, struck down by the awesome power of ingenuity erected to fuel the world of today. And tomorrow.



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> Oh and bring the Excedrin and the ear plugs if you plan to spend the night..



We shall see. Certainly if it is so irritating that I need Excedrin I will leave quickly and report back immediately that my initial assessment was incorrect. I am nothing if not honest on matters of scientific curiosity.



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> Oh and you might pack a bag with a change of clothes.. On a slow week --- you might have to wait a couple days for them to turn....   ROFLing...



I have driven through the windfarm on I70 on at least...oh....15 or 25 occasions so far? I would estimate from memory that on no more than 1 or 2 of those occasions have the blades not been turning. You do know what the word "Kansas" means to the Sioux, right? And based on my experience driving a car through there monthly, they sure had this one pegged long before my car or those windmills came along.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, I was right.  They DESERVE to get sick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly didn't say that. Perhaps that is why you are having such a tough time understanding the basics here, just read what is written, you don't have to make up some scheme of your own to overlay someone else's words.
Click to expand...

Actually, you DID say that.



RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look, Skippy, you don't get a say in things that happen outside your community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that completely. I have been offering an opinion on the NIMBYs, based on decades of experience dealing with them, nothing more.
Click to expand...

Uh huh.  You're telling them they should shut up and be grateful for the turbines that are making them sick -- oh, wait, that's right.  You're claiming they're LYING about being sick.


RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you perhaps begin to understand your absolute impotence here?  Is that why you're lashing out so emotionally?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't been emotional since the age of 12. Well, not quite, my daughter being born was quite the experience.
Click to expand...

Your posts in this thread suggest I'm right.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> Just found some of the NIMBYs! Wasn't hard.
> 
> Wind Turbine Syndrome!!
> 
> I like it!! Sounds like they are following the fracking NIMBY guide to the letter! Come up with a cool catch phrase, sounds all bad, like Munchhausen Syndrome...all medical even!
> 
> Wind Turbine Syndrome | Wind Turbine Syndrome in Massachusetts (again)
> 
> And look! Turns out, you can get this disease even without the wind turbines, it being one of those "all over" diseases, apparently related to just...living somewhere!! Just find something you live next to which isn't nice...like say a farm...no...can't be a farm...the cows make more noise than wind turbines do....maybe a forest? Yes! A forest! Only living near a forest...except...when the wind blows....then all the leaves rustling will cause this thing. Hell, I don't know, but it was written by someone expert!
> 
> Just pick a symptom and you too can have this disease! Sort of like...laziness!
> 
> "Since publishing the book in late 2009, Pierpont has heard from people around the world who are discovering that Wind Turbine Syndrome is not confined to living in the shadow of industrial wind turbines. It turns out people suffer identical symptoms from living close to natural gas compressor stations, industrial sewage pumping stations, industrial air conditioners, and other power plants. In each case, low frequency noise and infrasound appear to be the chief disease-causing culpritbasically, Wind Turbine Syndrome without the turbines."


Yup.  Sheer emotionalism.


----------



## mamooth

Dave and Flac are probably planning some phony disability claims based on this. Hence their rage. You're interfering with their gravy train.


----------



## whitehall

RGR said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless of course you measure success by megawattage, in which case the 60,000 megawatts generated in 2012 sure counts as something other than a freaking failure!! Somebody sure didn't object to running their refrigerator, turning on their lights, or in my case fueling my car!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Success by megawatt age"? What the hell does that mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry. Megawattage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 60k megawatts produced on a good day with support from fossil fuel is a freaking failure by the standards we set for energy efficiency.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We? You have a frog in your pocket? Because to me, as a consumer, that 60,000 megawatts is 60,000 megawatts of fuel for cars which won't be funding jihadists. Lower efficiency in some academic sense which involves not getting an American soldier killed defending the oil fields of someone who hates us is a win-win as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Lower efficiency but less of a need for dead American soldiers, please sir, can I have some more? How about, a BUNCH more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you factor in the evidence that the monster windmills actually kill migratory species and might cause illness to persons who live nearby it is a disaster.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, a disaster is letting young Americans get shot at and killed because soccer moms think it is necessary to use 5000# of steel, rubber, glass and plastic on wheels to take Lil' Johnny to Little League practice. Supporting the domestic production of fuel for automobiles can almost under no circumstances be configured as a "disaster", versus the price america has paid by the morons who think it is a commie plot, people asking that they care, just a little, about no longer doing this.
Click to expand...


Does the left really dwell in a fantasy world where windmills replace fossil fuel? If so, God help us for the last fifty years of union based education system. It ain't gonna freaking happen. The system don't work. Migratory birds are being killed and people are getting sick and when you factor in the the fossil fuel needed to maintain the monstrosities that take a lot more than 5000# to construct and the amount of space they need and the amount of energy they produce on a good day...the equation freaking don't work.


----------



## Old Rocks

Yes, fossil fuels are going to be replaced. By wind, solar, geothermal, nuclear, and the other clean sources of power. Five years ago, the solar industry was talking about the pie-in-the-sky idea of 1$ a watt solar panels. Now, there are cheaper panels on sale to the public.

Solar Panels from Wholesale Solar

And, today, the goal is 0.25$ a watt. And it won't take five years to get there.

I have stood under wind mills south of Biggs Junction in Oregon. For me, all I heard was a gentle swoosh, swoosh. Since I have worked in steel mills and sawmills most of my life, the sound was hardly disturbing. In fact, on streets near the freeways, the sound is much more intense from the traffic. Perhaps we should shut down all traffic on freeways in the cities to protect your so sensitive ears.

Wind is working well, and more is going in every day in states all across the nation. You luddites are just flapping your gums uselessly.


----------



## daveman

mamooth said:


> Dave and Flac are probably planning some phony disability claims based on this. Hence their rage. You're interfering with their gravy train.


It's cute how you just mindlessly lash out.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR --- before you pack up for that camping trip to a wind farm... 

I'd really like to know WHY you think there's value in this whole technology. HOW is the production chart below gonna EVER BE "an alternative" that keeps out of the mid-east?  By the mid-east reference you made above -- I'm sure you know that oil has virtually nothing to do with ELECTRICITY independence.. We HAVE BEEN energy independent on our electrical for generations. And the concept that we're gonna CONSERVE ourselfs enough to move an appreciable portion of Transport energy over to the grid --- is a pretty big fairy tale. 







What you're looking at is a WELL SITED Danish OFFSHORE wind farm... The daily production chart sucks. As it does in Texas or 3/4s of the US...


----------



## flacaltenn

Old Rocks said:


> Yes, fossil fuels are going to be replaced. By wind, solar, geothermal, nuclear, and the other clean sources of power. Five years ago, the solar industry was talking about the pie-in-the-sky idea of 1$ a watt solar panels. Now, there are cheaper panels on sale to the public.
> 
> Solar Panels from Wholesale Solar
> 
> And, today, the goal is 0.25$ a watt. And it won't take five years to get there.
> 
> I have stood under wind mills south of Biggs Junction in Oregon. For me, all I heard was a gentle swoosh, swoosh. Since I have worked in steel mills and sawmills most of my life, the sound was hardly disturbing. In fact, on streets near the freeways, the sound is much more intense from the traffic. Perhaps we should shut down all traffic on freeways in the cities to protect your so sensitive ears.
> 
> Wind is working well, and more is going in every day in states all across the nation. You luddites are just flapping your gums uselessly.



Ahhh.. THe deniers check in... Sound levels of 50dBa would be enough to make your house a nightmare.. 

How about a great demonstration?? You got the guts to push play?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoVKP0G_f8M]Wind Turbine noise at 1600 feet - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## flacaltenn

And if you think that the people OBJECTING to these poor choice of sitings are all anti-wind cranks ---

You need to watch THIS ONE.. Where most of the people interviewed were ALL FOR the wind project. But feel that they were GREATLY LIED to and had facts misrepresented.. Watch to end about the misrepresentation of property value impact.. 

NO SITINGS like the ones depicted here ought to EVER have been allowed.... 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtGijb_oNeQ]Voices of Vinalhaven, Maine: wind turbine noise Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## daveman

RGR thinks all those people should just have to live with it to atone for their sin of using electricity.


----------



## jon_berzerk

flacaltenn said:


> And if you think that the people OBJECTING to these poor choice of sitings are all anti-wind cranks ---
> 
> You need to watch THIS ONE.. Where most of the people interviewed were ALL FOR the wind project. But feel that they were GREATLY LIED to and had facts misrepresented.. Watch to end about the misrepresentation of property value impact..
> 
> NO SITINGS like the ones depicted here ought to EVER have been allowed....
> 
> Voices of Vinalhaven, Maine: wind turbine noise Part 1 - YouTube



failure to conduct due diligence is no excuse


----------



## flacaltenn

Just visiting a wind farm for 10 minutes does not tell the story.. These things rotate into the wind.. And the noise field is HIGHLY VARIABLE.. So you might be standing to the side of the wind stream or ACTUALLY be TOO CLOSE to get the full effect.. 

I know that weather plays a part because I used to live in the SF Bay area hills..  And the 2 freeways (280 and 101) were MILES from my place.. But with the right conditions --- the road noise increased to what it would be inside my car driving those roads. 

Those folks in the videos above are subject to the full effect of 24/7 exposure under all weather and wind conditions.. I'd love to have some of them CHART the power and spectrum of those sounds over a couple months..

And Jon_Beserk is correct.. I know MY LOCAL govt would NEVER approve sitings as shown in that 2nd video.. That's just arrogance built on ignorance..


----------



## RGR

Old Rocks said:


> You luddites are just flapping your gums uselessly.



And their ideas for alternatives do seem a bit lacking. So they really like pumping CO2 out by the ton, using any of the normal methods of transport and power generation?

I still think windmills aren't the whole game, power distribution will end up being less centralized, my current setup being a perfect example. If it wasn't for my priority of fueling the car from domestic produced fuels I could almost invest the money to go off grid entirely. But as long as I fuel the car from these domestically produced fuels, I really need the grid for my extra power needs, amd I am forced to admit, it does feel nice to contribute my extra home grown electricity back to the community during most daylight hours.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Just visiting a wind farm for 10 minutes does not tell the story.. These things rotate into the wind.. And the noise field is HIGHLY VARIABLE.. So you might be standing to the side of the wind stream or ACTUALLY be TOO CLOSE to get the full effect..



Sure...noise being so much quieter close by, and then the decibels jumping up so much farther away. Makes perfect sense.

Pick a distance. I'll go sit there under one of those megawatt towers and see what I can see. I don't know if I can get right under one, but I should probably try, it would be cool.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> NO SITINGS like the ones depicted here ought to EVER have been allowed....
> 
> Voices of Vinalhaven, Maine: wind turbine noise Part 1 - YouTube



I like how they admit that they didn't do their homework, and were stunned! Stunned I say! because they were stupid and didn't do their homework.

The video also didn't provide a single NOISE, just people pissed they didn't do their homework. How interesting...propaganda.....and no actual noise except their voices.

Maybe I recommend education for everyone involved?


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> RGR thinks all those people should just have to live with it to atone for their sin of using electricity.



using electricity isn't a sin. Not understanding how one's lifestyle (a benefit) is dependent on a cost, to someone, somewhere, is.

Personal responsibility. 

This is really no different than the lawyers for Greenpeace showing up in Washington for a meeting in a fleet of SUVs. There is only a want or desire (no windmills near me! but dammit I want my lighting and internet and TV!) and complete ignorance of what their lifestyle costs.

We all need to understand where our power comes from, and take responsibility for it. I would recommend education, but in America that means you get stuck with the public school system and they are busy dealing with teachers unions and keeping the kids from getting pregnant, no time to teach them to think much.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Ahhh.. THe deniers check in... Sound levels of 50dBa would be enough to make your house a nightmare..
> 
> How about a great demonstration?? You got the guts to push play?
> 
> Wind Turbine noise at 1600 feet - YouTube



Nice video! If true, it seems like his turbine is much louder than the ones I've listened to. No wind noise...yet there he is outside....I don't suppose he had a windsock nearby somewhere we could see?

Anyone with experience talking on a cell phone outside can see where even electrical newbies like me might be going with this one.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just visiting a wind farm for 10 minutes does not tell the story.. These things rotate into the wind.. And the noise field is HIGHLY VARIABLE.. So you might be standing to the side of the wind stream or ACTUALLY be TOO CLOSE to get the full effect..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure...noise being so much quieter close by, and then the decibels jumping up so much farther away. Makes perfect sense.
> 
> Pick a distance. I'll go sit there under one of those megawatt towers and see what I can see. I don't know if I can get right under one, but I should probably try, it would be cool.
Click to expand...


Hey.. Sorry to pester you with science this early in the day --- but you've stepped into one of my career specialities here -- being fields and waves.. 



> http://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/AAS2011/papers/p57.pdf
> 
> The simulation used the positions of 14 wind turbines closest to a microphone array as point sources of the sounds. Results show that the combined frequencies from a single turbine produced SPL patterns within a 100 m-by-100 m area that varied by 2&#8211;5 dB whereas the combined sounds from all 14 turbines varied by 6-13 dB. Validation of these results was achieved by using three 2-by-4 microphone arrays with 1 m, 2 m and 3 m separation between the microphones. These recorded variations of 6&#8211;11 dB in their 15-minute, SPL averages.
> 
> *Additional validation was also shown by direct observation; the sound from the wind turbines was observed to appear and disappear within two to three paces between fixed locations. *The conclusion is that measurements of low frequency sound
> levels can vary considerably over even very short distances and that point measurements may not represent the sound levels throughout their immediate neighbourhood.



Best to doubt me on political assertions because I never intentionally lie or wing it on the science topics.. Politics requires winging 

Just like there are dead acoustic zones in an auditorium, outdoor sounds are similiarly distributed. But in the case of outdoor acoustics, atmospherics can create WAVE GUIDES that channel and amplify the sounds. PARTICULARLY if those sounds eminate from multiple sources and have beat pattern interferences.. And OUTDOORS these patterns will vary wildly over time.. 

BTW: More science.. If you sit right UNDER one --- you might not get the full effect because you'll hear the higher freq. turbine noise and mechanical screeching, but the sound field from the 80M high fan won't get to full crescendo for several wavelengths of the sound distance from the tower. There COULD be considerable masking of the low freq. noise right under the tower..


----------



## The Irish Ram

> using electricity isn't a sin. Not understanding how one's lifestyle (a benefit) is dependent on a cost, to someone, somewhere, is.
> 
> Personal responsibility.
> 
> This is really no different than the lawyers for Greenpeace showing up in Washington for a meeting in a fleet of SUVs. There is only a want or desire (no windmills near me! but dammit I want my lighting and internet and TV!) and complete ignorance of what their lifestyle costs.



RGR,
If you had a career, you'd be at work by now.  You specialize in forums not fields.......


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pick a distance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey.. Sorry to pester you with science this early in the day --- but you've stepped into one of my career specialities here -- being fields and waves..
Click to expand...


So just let me know which distance I need to stand at. And for how long. Would you rather volunteer a range of distances? That's cool, can you describe these distances in the form of a probability density function? So many minutes at this distance, so many at that one, to maximize the odds of me being sickened by these noises which appear to have an entire community up and in arms? 



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> BTW: More science.. If you sit right UNDER one --- you might not get the full effect because you'll hear the higher freq. turbine noise and mechanical screeching, but the sound field from the 80M high fan won't get to full crescendo for several wavelengths of the sound distance from the tower. There COULD be considerable masking of the low freq. noise right under the tower..



Cool. Excellent! So would you like to draw me a schematic rather than deal with a probability density function? Stand this far away, downwind? That far away, upwind? Face perpendicular to the tower? Or not? Face away from it? Does it matter if it is a rainy day, or is this experiment best done on a sunny day? Is there a difference in the sound waves enough that both might have the same level, but one will sicken me and the other won't?

I say we just go with what you consider the optimal "sickening" noise conditions, I'll be prepared to barf in whatever farmers field I happen to be standing in, and we see what happens.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Hey.. Sorry to pester you with science this early in the day --- but you've stepped into one of my career specialities here -- being fields and waves..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you had a career, you'd be at work by now.  You specialize in forums not fields.......
Click to expand...


That isn't a nice thing to say to flacaltenn. That is who you are responding to, but maybe you don't even know that? Be careful letting that hillbilly breeding and substandard public education shine through too hard now Irish.

I'm perfectly willing to grant that flacaltenn is a professional in his field, just as I am. And just as I can tell him exactly where to go and what to do to lose a limb, or even die, in the oil field, I am willing to let him lead me to somewhere I could be physically sickened by the horrifying side effects of standing in the exact right spot near those power generating blades!!

A lab rat in the experiment is I!

Now why don't you wander off and slop a hog or something, seeing as how that is about the sum total of your apparent talents in farming nirvana.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pick a distance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey.. Sorry to pester you with science this early in the day --- but you've stepped into one of my career specialities here -- being fields and waves..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So just let me know which distance I need to stand at. And for how long. Would you rather volunteer a range of distances? That's cool, can you describe these distances in the form of a probability density function? So many minutes at this distance, so many at that one, to maximize the odds of me being sickened by these noises which appear to have an entire community up and in arms?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW: More science.. If you sit right UNDER one --- you might not get the full effect because you'll hear the higher freq. turbine noise and mechanical screeching, but the sound field from the 80M high fan won't get to full crescendo for several wavelengths of the sound distance from the tower. There COULD be considerable masking of the low freq. noise right under the tower..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cool. Excellent! So would you like to draw me a schematic rather than deal with a probability density function? Stand this far away, downwind? That far away, upwind? Face perpendicular to the tower? Or not? Face away from it? Does it matter if it is a rainy day, or is this experiment best done on a sunny day? Is there a difference in the sound waves enough that both might have the same level, but one will sicken me and the other won't?
> 
> I say we just go with what you consider the optimal "sickening" noise conditions, I'll be prepared to barf in whatever farmers field I happen to be standing in, and we see what happens.
Click to expand...


Hey !!! I applaud your sudden interest in the scientific method.. I'd rep ya if I could !

Just keep thinking about the fact that professional audio analysts have problems with these measurements.. 

So --- SOME of that stuff you conjured up WILL matter.. (rainy versus sunny? actually probably yes because of acoustic wave guiding)

The rest not so much.. 
If you want to do the job right --- just prepare for a long camping trip..


----------



## flacaltenn

The Irish Ram said:


> Hey.. Sorry to pester you with science this early in the day --- but you've stepped into one of my career specialities here -- being fields and waves..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you had a career, you'd be at work by now.  You specialize in forums not fields.......
Click to expand...


Since you're nosy... I've been an independent consultant for quite awhile.. I'm TRYING to work -- but I just had to put down one of dogs a couple days ago and I can't get my head straight. 

You really shouldn't LEAP into the personal affairs of others just to whoop up on them.. 

So instead of having a warm furry friend at my feet while I work, I'm leaving for the Vet in about 1/2 hour to pick up her ashes.. 

Anymore things bugging you bunky???


----------



## Mr. Sauerkraut

I am a technical editor in europa´s leading company for wind turbines. We do not sell our products to the USA. But we also have cases like this - bored people who tries to fight this clean energy for no reason. 

Well, we do anything to make every generation of our power plants more silent. We have here in Germany by now a 25% quote of green energy production. And we are a high industrialised contry with a very high need of energy. But we want the green energy and we will get it. 

Meanwhile, you poison your contry with this gas fracking bullshit. We will see, which strategy will be more successful.


----------



## flacaltenn

Mr. Sauerkraut said:


> I am a technical editor in europa´s leading company for wind turbines. We do not sell our products to the USA. But we also have cases like this - bored people who tries to fight this clean energy for no reason.
> 
> Well, we do anything to make every generation of our power plants more silent. We have here in Germany by now a 25% quote of green energy production. And we are a high industrialised contry with a very high need of energy. But we want the green energy and we will get it.
> 
> Meanwhile, you poison your contry with this gas fracking bullshit. We will see, which strategy will be more successful.



Do we need to rehash how happy your fellow sauerkrauts are with their energy bills or how all that "green money" was spent?? Be glad to do that one if ya want... Why dont you start a thread on the REMARKABLE SUCCESS of the German Green Energy program? 

Congrats on the engineering.. Germans do that right. Right now the problem isn't the TURBINES.. It's the idiots who site them in existing neighborhoods and lie to the gullible "earth-savers" who think it's their duty to lower their property values and disrupt their lives..


----------



## Mr. Sauerkraut

flacaltenn said:


> Well, we do anything to make every generation of our power plants more silent. We have here in Germany by now a 25% quote of green energy production. And we are a high industrialised contry with a very high need of energy. But we want the green energy and we will get it.
> 
> Meanwhile, you poison your contry with this gas fracking bullshit. We will see, which strategy will be more successful.



Do we need to rehash how happy your fellow sauerkrauts are with their energy bills or how all that "green money" was spent?? Be glad to do that one if ya want... Why dont you start a thread on the REMARKABLE SUCCESS of the German Green Energy program? 

Congrats on the engineering.. Germans do that right. Right now the problem isn't the TURBINES.. It's the idiots who site them in existing neighborhoods and lie to the gullible "earth-savers" who think it's their duty to lower their property values and disrupt their lives..[/QUOTE]

Well, Mrs. Merkel, who forced up the green energy change was elected again. And the FDP - the party which always wanted to support nuclear energy was kicked out of the parlament. If elections show the people´s will, the will of the germans is clear to see. 
We want the green energy. And we will show the world that a high industrialized country can work with a major part of it. 

And idiots...well, they´re everywhere...we have to install a stop system and a bat sensor on our plants...how weird is that?!


----------



## The Irish Ram

Flac, I'm sorry, I meant to grab BTR RGR's post not yours.  My comment was for him.  Your views are more level headed and you seem better schooled on the subject and less bias than what RGR is putting out there.
 If he was as important and schooled as he pretends to be on the frack thread, he'd be working, not posting at all hours.  Being raised in Appalachia, you'd think he could find something productive to do besides confer with the lying idiots who site turbines and gas wells. 

RG, buddy, while you were busy trying to impress the internet with your knowledge of everything, this little girl was striking gold in Colorado, and gas and oil in Ohio.  My college education serves me well, and so does my real estate acumen.  And I *did* invest.  So, do you think I should ask for 7,000 an acre and 20% royalties, and then settle for 6 grand an acre and 17%?

(Oh and we ran off of wind at our home in Cripple Creek, so, if you need any help with "self containment", I'd looove to help you out, lol. )

Flac, sry about the quote mix up, I corrected it,  and I am really sorry about your dog.  It's so hard to let go.  My sympathies.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> RGR thinks all those people should just have to live with it to atone for their sin of using electricity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> using electricity isn't a sin. Not understanding how one's lifestyle (a benefit) is dependent on a cost, to someone, somewhere, is.
> 
> Personal responsibility.
> 
> This is really no different than the lawyers for Greenpeace showing up in Washington for a meeting in a fleet of SUVs. There is only a want or desire (no windmills near me! but dammit I want my lighting and internet and TV!) and complete ignorance of what their lifestyle costs.
> 
> We all need to understand where our power comes from, and take responsibility for it. I would recommend education, but in America that means you get stuck with the public school system and they are busy dealing with teachers unions and keeping the kids from getting pregnant, no time to teach them to think much.
Click to expand...

Good Gaea, are you still whining that people who don't worship wind turbines are lying?

Give it up, kid.  You lost.  You don't get to decide for other people what they should put up with.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Hey !!! I applaud your sudden interest in the scientific method.. I'd rep ya if I could !



15 years as a publishing scientist, I know a thing or two about testing a hypothesis!



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> Just keep thinking about the fact that professional audio analysts have problems with these measurements..



And don't forget that if the communities claiming to be sickened by these things can be sickened, there must be a correct distance and orientation you can guide me to, that I may be sickened in as lab ratty a way as possible!!



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> So --- SOME of that stuff you conjured up WILL matter.. (rainy versus sunny? actually probably yes because of acoustic wave guiding)
> 
> The rest not so much..
> If you want to do the job right --- just prepare for a long camping trip..



Why? These people are claiming they step out on their back porch and POW!!!!! Something sounding like wind noise over a camera mic! Surely I should be able to do the same, walking a search pattern within 1/2 mile of a megawatt turbine? How localized can this sound be, is it possible that the video provided was of the one spot within 1/2 mile where it could be heard? Sound localized only on the porch? You know what a doctor would say then, right? Well then, DON'T STAND ON THE PORCH!! Silly answer for a silly sickening, I realize, but this would imply that a bedroom would have to sit right in the place where the sound arrives in such a form as to sicken folks? Anyone calculated the probabilities of that one?


----------



## RGR

Mr. Sauerkraut said:


> I am a technical editor in europa´s leading company for wind turbines. We do not sell our products to the USA. But we also have cases like this - bored people who tries to fight this clean energy for no reason.



Oh, there are reasons. But you just won't get the truth from a NIMBY to save your life.



			
				Mr Sauerkraut said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, you poison your contry with this gas fracking bullshit. We will see, which strategy will be more successful.



Never poisoned a thing in any of the frack jobs I've ever done. Are you claiming you have? You should stop immediately.

As far as success...well....those in glass houses are hardly in a position to throw stones.


----------



## RGR

The Irish Ram said:


> Flac, I'm sorry, I meant to grab BTR RGR's post not yours.  My comment was for him.



Yes, WE knew that. You, being a victim of your genetics and environment, did not.



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> If he was as important and schooled as he pretends to be on the frack thread, he'd be working, not posting at all hours.



Oh, you really don't want to know the working conditions of those of us who can dictate the terms of our employment. 



			
				The Irish Ram said:
			
		

> So, do you think I should ask for 7,000 an acre and 20% royalties, and then settle for 6 grand an acre and 17%?



You should ask for whatever you wish. Rube.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey !!! I applaud your sudden interest in the scientific method.. I'd rep ya if I could !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 15 years as a publishing scientist, I know a thing or two about testing a hypothesis!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just keep thinking about the fact that professional audio analysts have problems with these measurements..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And don't forget that if the communities claiming to be sickened by these things can be sickened, there must be a correct distance and orientation you can guide me to, that I may be sickened in as lab ratty a way as possible!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So --- SOME of that stuff you conjured up WILL matter.. (rainy versus sunny? actually probably yes because of acoustic wave guiding)
> 
> The rest not so much..
> If you want to do the job right --- just prepare for a long camping trip..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why? These people are claiming they step out on their back porch and POW!!!!! Something sounding like wind noise over a camera mic! Surely I should be able to do the same, walking a search pattern within 1/2 mile of a megawatt turbine? How localized can this sound be, is it possible that the video provided was of the one spot within 1/2 mile where it could be heard? Sound localized only on the porch? You know what a doctor would say then, right? Well then, DON'T STAND ON THE PORCH!! Silly answer for a silly sickening, I realize, but this would imply that a bedroom would have to sit right in the place where the sound arrives in such a form as to sicken folks? Anyone calculated the probabilities of that one?
Click to expand...


You have experimental bias.. And you're not taking the experimental preparation seriously.. which jeopardizes your claim of being a publishing scientist. A lot of cutesy stuff like "well dont stand on the porch".. pretty much cheapens your opinion.

AND to boot === you are rejecting all the science I presented to you about the high variability of outdoor acoustic patterns which STATES EXACTLY that the noise WILL change intensity and location with enviro conditions.. Not to mention the fact that the turbines won't be working 2 or 2.5 days a week and 6 hours out of 24... 

Not embarrassed enough yet? 

If you plopped these noise-makers down in a black community, Jesse Jackson would be there within a week screaming "ENVIRONMENTAL RACISM" into a megaphone on the network evening news. 

Got an idea.. How many cigarettes does it take to get diagnosed with a disease? Why don't you just go buy a carton and report back to us in a week? You're just pulling my leg now. And I tend to doubt that you'd ever be an objective science advocate on this issue.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> 15 years as a publishing scientist, I know a thing or two about testing a hypothesis!


Writing a couple of letters to Penthouse Forum that start off with "There I was in the lab, polishing my beaker..." DOESN'T make you a published scientist, kid.


----------



## jon_berzerk

daveman said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 years as a publishing scientist, I know a thing or two about testing a hypothesis!
> 
> 
> 
> Writing a couple of letters to Penthouse Forum that start off with "There I was in the lab, polishing my beaker..." DOESN'T make you a published scientist, kid.
Click to expand...


has he posted his works on the thread


----------



## mamooth

At all hours of the day, the freeway a mile from my house is making low-frequency noise that I can hear when I go outside. Where is my fainting couch? I feel a spell coming on. That pain in my knee, now I know the cause. I'm gonna sue someone.


----------



## flacaltenn

mamooth said:


> At all hours of the day, the freeway a mile from my house is making low-frequency noise that I can hear when I go outside. Where is my fainting couch? I feel a spell coming on. That pain in my knee, now I know the cause. I'm gonna sue someone.



You willingly chose to live under those conditions.  Most of the folks HERE want their old conditions back.. Yet MORRE denial and hypocrisy from the left.


----------



## Mr. H.

'Wind Turbine Syndrome' Blamed for Mysterious Symptoms in Cape Cod Town - Yahoo

_In 2011, a doctor at Harvard Medical School diagnosed Hobart with wind turbine syndrome, which is not recognized by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. _


----------



## RGR

Mr. H. said:


> 'Wind Turbine Syndrome' Blamed for Mysterious Symptoms in Cape Cod Town - Yahoo
> 
> _In 2011, a doctor at Harvard Medical School diagnosed Hobart with wind turbine syndrome, which is not recognized by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. _



Sort of difficult to diagnose something with a new disease before...they can invent...the new disease...isn't it?


----------



## itfitzme

Odd.  The story doesn't present the actual noise.

I found this video of what appears as the same type of turbine


----------



## flacaltenn

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoVKP0G_f8M]Wind Turbine noise at 1600 feet - YouTube[/ame]

Meters are the only accepted method of comparing enviro noise...


----------



## daveman

jon_berzerk said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 years as a publishing scientist, I know a thing or two about testing a hypothesis!
> 
> 
> 
> Writing a couple of letters to Penthouse Forum that start off with "There I was in the lab, polishing my beaker..." DOESN'T make you a published scientist, kid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> has he posted his works on the thread
Click to expand...

Not that I've seen.


----------



## daveman

mamooth said:


> At all hours of the day, the freeway a mile from my house is making low-frequency noise that I can hear when I go outside. Where is my fainting couch? I feel a spell coming on. That pain in my knee, now I know the cause. I'm gonna sue someone.


According to RGR, you need to STFU and take it, because you insist on living in a nation with roads.


----------



## Old Rocks

*This will be a major source of income for many ranchers in the southern part of Eastern Oregon. And there are the basalt ridges in Southeastern Oregon that have huge potential for wind and solar energy. There rent the utilities pay could go to the support of our National Parks and Monuments. And in the broad basins, there is huge geo-thermal potential. Be nice to see that area experiance some economic good times.*

Feds Give OK to Central Oregon Wind Farm | News - Home

BEND, Ore. - 
The federal government on Thursday formally approved road and power line rights-of-way through about four miles of government land for a wind farm east of Bend that could add up to 52 turbines to the state's wind-energy boom.

The West Butte Wind Project would be on private land about 32 miles east of Bend, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management said.

 The developer will pay for about 9,000 acres of sage grouse habitat elsewhere on bureau holdings, and it has worked on protection plans for golden eagles and bats, the bureau said.

 Liz Nysson of the Oregon Natural Desert Association said the developer started early to reduce the potential harm to wildlife, a challenge for the wind business as projects move out of farmland along the Columbia River into sagebrush country.


----------



## flacaltenn

Old Rocks said:


> *This will be a major source of income for many ranchers in the southern part of Eastern Oregon. And there are the basalt ridges in Southeastern Oregon that have huge potential for wind and solar energy. There rent the utilities pay could go to the support of our National Parks and Monuments. And in the broad basins, there is huge geo-thermal potential. Be nice to see that area experiance some economic good times.*
> 
> Feds Give OK to Central Oregon Wind Farm | News - Home
> 
> BEND, Ore. -
> The federal government on Thursday formally approved road and power line rights-of-way through about four miles of government land for a wind farm east of Bend that could add up to 52 turbines to the state's wind-energy boom.
> 
> The West Butte Wind Project would be on private land about 32 miles east of Bend, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management said.
> 
> The developer will pay for about 9,000 acres of sage grouse habitat elsewhere on bureau holdings, and it has worked on protection plans for golden eagles and bats, the bureau said.
> 
> Liz Nysson of the Oregon Natural Desert Association said the developer started early to reduce the potential harm to wildlife, a challenge for the wind business as projects move out of farmland along the Columbia River into sagebrush country.



Congrats.. Hope you're there to see the sad looks on the little critters faces when they get the eviction notice.. More useless wind toys.. Yippeee... 

At least --- they are not decieving the public into putting them into their backyards.. That's a positive step..


----------



## Old Rocks

flacaltenn said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This will be a major source of income for many ranchers in the southern part of Eastern Oregon. And there are the basalt ridges in Southeastern Oregon that have huge potential for wind and solar energy. There rent the utilities pay could go to the support of our National Parks and Monuments. And in the broad basins, there is huge geo-thermal potential. Be nice to see that area experiance some economic good times.*
> 
> Feds Give OK to Central Oregon Wind Farm | News - Home
> 
> BEND, Ore. -
> The federal government on Thursday formally approved road and power line rights-of-way through about four miles of government land for a wind farm east of Bend that could add up to 52 turbines to the state's wind-energy boom.
> 
> The West Butte Wind Project would be on private land about 32 miles east of Bend, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management said.
> 
> The developer will pay for about 9,000 acres of sage grouse habitat elsewhere on bureau holdings, and it has worked on protection plans for golden eagles and bats, the bureau said.
> 
> Liz Nysson of the Oregon Natural Desert Association said the developer started early to reduce the potential harm to wildlife, a challenge for the wind business as projects move out of farmland along the Columbia River into sagebrush country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats.. Hope you're there to see the sad looks on the little critters faces when they get the eviction notice.. More useless wind toys.. Yippeee...
> 
> At least --- they are not decieving the public into putting them into their backyards.. That's a positive step..
Click to expand...


How silly you are. The little critters will do just fine. The footprint of the mills are very small, and they don't spew poison that kills the soil and animals.


----------



## flacaltenn

Old Rocks said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This will be a major source of income for many ranchers in the southern part of Eastern Oregon. And there are the basalt ridges in Southeastern Oregon that have huge potential for wind and solar energy. There rent the utilities pay could go to the support of our National Parks and Monuments. And in the broad basins, there is huge geo-thermal potential. Be nice to see that area experiance some economic good times.*
> 
> Feds Give OK to Central Oregon Wind Farm | News - Home
> 
> BEND, Ore. -
> The federal government on Thursday formally approved road and power line rights-of-way through about four miles of government land for a wind farm east of Bend that could add up to 52 turbines to the state's wind-energy boom.
> 
> The West Butte Wind Project would be on private land about 32 miles east of Bend, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management said.
> 
> The developer will pay for about 9,000 acres of sage grouse habitat elsewhere on bureau holdings, and it has worked on protection plans for golden eagles and bats, the bureau said.
> 
> Liz Nysson of the Oregon Natural Desert Association said the developer started early to reduce the potential harm to wildlife, a challenge for the wind business as projects move out of farmland along the Columbia River into sagebrush country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats.. Hope you're there to see the sad looks on the little critters faces when they get the eviction notice.. More useless wind toys.. Yippeee...
> 
> At least --- they are not decieving the public into putting them into their backyards.. That's a positive step..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How silly you are. The little critters will do just fine. The footprint of the mills are very small, and they don't spew poison that kills the soil and animals.
Click to expand...


Yeah.. It'll be humane. With all that wind and turbine noise, the little rodents and ground birds won't HEAR the hawks coming ---- or their severed heads landing right next to them.


----------



## Old Rocks

LOL. I have stood under the mills south of Wasco, Oregon. Of course, my hearing suffers from 50 years in heavy industry, but my wife has excellent hearing, and she stated that it was a gentle swoosh, swoosh which didn't bother her at all. And that is all that I heard. There were the normal amount of ground squirrel holes, with the normal amount of red tail hawks overhead. Saw no evidence of dead birds or bats underneath the two we walked over to, although I have no dought that there is a certain amount of raptor mortality associated with the mills. Certainly a lower amount than the road that runs along side  the mills.


----------



## flacaltenn

Old Rocks said:


> LOL. I have stood under the mills south of Wasco, Oregon. Of course, my hearing suffers from 50 years in heavy industry, but my wife has excellent hearing, and she stated that it was a gentle swoosh, swoosh which didn't bother her at all. And that is all that I heard. There were the normal amount of ground squirrel holes, with the normal amount of red tail hawks overhead. Saw no evidence of dead birds or bats underneath the two we walked over to, although I have no dought that there is a certain amount of raptor mortality associated with the mills. Certainly a lower amount than the road that runs along side  the mills.



Very scientific jeeves.. I'm impressed. But I'll stick with the MEASURED levels of turbine noise taken over all angles and aspects of the wind field.. I guarantee --- it has an effect on both NEIGHBORS and wildlife.. 

Of course --- if you and your wife wanna stand out there for a couple months and report back --- I'd be thrilled to hear your numbers.. '

REAL NUMBERS are anywhere from 46dBA to 68dbA at 60meters with a moderate wind.
(Depending on size and height of blades.)


----------



## flacaltenn

Try this on for size.. Siemens 2 MW wind turbine.  Sound levels from it's spec sheet.. 



> http://www.k2wind.ca/wp-content/uploads/WTS-Wind-Turbine-Specifications-Report-and-App-A.pdf
> 
> Sound power nameplate (2.030 MW)
> 3 m/s &#8211; 91.4 dBA; 4 m/s &#8211; 95.6 dBA; 5 m/s &#8211; 99.8 dBA; 6 m/s &#8211; 102.5 dBA; >7 m/s &#8211; 103.0 dBA



For comparison::: 






DID YA HEAR THAT GOLDIROCKS??? LOUDER??? 

Bet this'll have to be repeated often to overcome all those anecdotal stories of gentle whooshes. 
MOST of the problem with personal stories always comes to size and hard something is blowing..


----------



## westwall

Old Rocks said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This will be a major source of income for many ranchers in the southern part of Eastern Oregon. And there are the basalt ridges in Southeastern Oregon that have huge potential for wind and solar energy. There rent the utilities pay could go to the support of our National Parks and Monuments. And in the broad basins, there is huge geo-thermal potential. Be nice to see that area experiance some economic good times.*
> 
> Feds Give OK to Central Oregon Wind Farm | News - Home
> 
> BEND, Ore. -
> The federal government on Thursday formally approved road and power line rights-of-way through about four miles of government land for a wind farm east of Bend that could add up to 52 turbines to the state's wind-energy boom.
> 
> The West Butte Wind Project would be on private land about 32 miles east of Bend, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management said.
> 
> The developer will pay for about 9,000 acres of sage grouse habitat elsewhere on bureau holdings, and it has worked on protection plans for golden eagles and bats, the bureau said.
> 
> Liz Nysson of the Oregon Natural Desert Association said the developer started early to reduce the potential harm to wildlife, a challenge for the wind business as projects move out of farmland along the Columbia River into sagebrush country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats.. Hope you're there to see the sad looks on the little critters faces when they get the eviction notice.. More useless wind toys.. Yippeee...
> 
> At least --- they are not decieving the public into putting them into their backyards.. That's a positive step..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How silly you are. The little critters will do just fine. The footprint of the mills are very small, and they don't spew poison that kills the soil and animals.
Click to expand...







Tell that to the birds and bats that will be slaughtered in your little Cuisinart.


----------



## westwall

Old Rocks said:


> LOL. I have stood under the mills south of Wasco, Oregon. Of course, my hearing suffers from 50 years in heavy industry, but my wife has excellent hearing, and she stated that it was a gentle swoosh, swoosh which didn't bother her at all. And that is all that I heard. There were the normal amount of ground squirrel holes, with the normal amount of red tail hawks overhead. Saw no evidence of dead birds or bats underneath the two we walked over to, although I have no dought that there is a certain amount of raptor mortality associated with the mills. Certainly a lower amount than the road that runs along side  the mills.









So, she lies like you do?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj5q6q8lH4Q]Sound of windmill / windturbine - film 01 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld_CWGYkdng]Do wind turbines make much sound? - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mablINxg3zE]Wind turbine noise - Suncor wind farm Ripley - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoVKP0G_f8M]Wind Turbine noise at 1600 feet - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Old Rocks

http://files.gereports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/larg-wind-turbine.jpg


----------



## westwall

One of those videos I posted is taken from 1,600 feet away from the turbine.  It appears your graph is wrong.


----------



## flacaltenn

westwall said:


> One of those videos I posted is taken from 1,600 feet away from the turbine.  It appears your graph is wrong.



Likely because of acoustic wave guiding. In an outdoor enviroment, thermal gradients, ground topology and clouds can cause exceptionally high channeling of sounds.. 

Depending on conditions here -- I can clearly hear concerts in the local park 3 miles away some nights. 

The other factor is whether just ONE turbine or a group.. Because the varying speeds and sizes will create "beats" in the far field patterns. These beats also add and subtract from the individual acoustic power fields. 

It's a difficult to monitor.. Just like the office at every airport that's required to monitor "airplane noise".. 

The point of this thread is --- you can't plop these cuisinarts down whereever you feel like it. And EVEN IF they are in the middle of nowhere --- the impact on local wildlife is MORE than then just death by getting chopped. And you don't LIE to the folks who are inclined to have these earth-saving devices in their backyards..


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> You have experimental bias.. And you're not taking the experimental preparation seriously..



Of COURSE I am not taking this seriously. But unlike in my field where I can round up 7 figures to buy data, contractors, outside experts, and then take a year to express my professional opinion, this is not my field so I am going with just the basics of the question involved.

Can I go out, in and around 100+ large wind turbines and HEAR anything. Just...ANYTHING. While you laying the groundwork for why someone might walk among these things and hear NOTHING is appreciated, your obvious dislike for these things revealed previously looks like it has much more bias in it than anything I've expressed to date.



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> AND to boot === you are rejecting all the science I presented to you about the high variability of outdoor acoustic patterns which STATES EXACTLY that the noise WILL change intensity and location with enviro conditions.. Not to mention the fact that the turbines won't be working 2 or 2.5 days a week and 6 hours out of 24...



See, you are doing it again. High variability!! Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

I COUNTED 142 windmills turning, and 1 not, Sunday lunchtime in central Kansas. So according to what you want to present as the odds of finding ANY of them moving, I should go to Vegas and begin immediately playing roulette.



			
				flacalten said:
			
		

> Not embarrassed enough yet?



Why should I be? I haven't even gone out and spent some time among all those spinning blades yet. When you have to use "high variability" to fill in for "gee why can't the average Joe cruise around 100+ of these things and not hear the stupid things", it isn't me looking to forestall an answer you appear to suspect might be in the offing.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 years as a publishing scientist, I know a thing or two about testing a hypothesis!
> 
> 
> 
> Writing a couple of letters to Penthouse Forum that start off with "There I was in the lab, polishing my beaker..." DOESN'T make you a published scientist, kid.
Click to expand...


Certainly I never said I ran a lab. But I've got 5 articles in Natural Resources Research...do they count?


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have experimental bias.. And you're not taking the experimental preparation seriously..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of COURSE I am not taking this seriously. But unlike in my field where I can round up 7 figures to buy data, contractors, outside experts, and then take a year to express my professional opinion, this is not my field so I am going with just the basics of the question involved.
> 
> Can I go out, in and around 100+ large wind turbines and HEAR anything. Just...ANYTHING. While you laying the groundwork for why someone might walk among these things and hear NOTHING is appreciated, your obvious dislike for these things revealed previously looks like it has much more bias in it than anything I've expressed to date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND to boot === you are rejecting all the science I presented to you about the high variability of outdoor acoustic patterns which STATES EXACTLY that the noise WILL change intensity and location with enviro conditions.. Not to mention the fact that the turbines won't be working 2 or 2.5 days a week and 6 hours out of 24...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See, you are doing it again. High variability!! Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
> 
> I COUNTED 142 windmills turning, and 1 not, Sunday lunchtime in central Kansas. So according to what you want to present as the odds of finding ANY of them moving, I should go to Vegas and begin immediately playing roulette.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacalten said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not embarrassed enough yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why should I be? I haven't even gone out and spent some time among all those spinning blades yet. When you have to use "high variability" to fill in for "gee why can't the average Joe cruise around 100+ of these things and not hear the stupid things", it isn't me looking to forestall an answer you appear to suspect might be in the offing.
Click to expand...


Well.. Welcome back.. Guess you missed the part where I listed the Noise Level from a Siemens manufacturer spec sheet.. It's 95 dbA.. And a chart that compares that to other sources at 95dbA.. 

Don't think you can ignore that. Or the fact that in field of MULTIPLES of these 2MW giants, you might even get LOUDER READINGS? CAN YOU STILL HEAR ME??? I SAID MORE THAN ONE !!!

So look man.. Did you have a nice picnic in that Kansas field?? Did you score?? 
But more importantly --- Did you read the SPEC SHEET to find out what the power outputs were for your sample?? 

95dBA is just too loud to plop down anywhere that you please.. Not even ONE of them.. 
Can you imagine an "ARMY" of leaf blowers 1/4 mile from your home???


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 years as a publishing scientist, I know a thing or two about testing a hypothesis!
> 
> 
> 
> Writing a couple of letters to Penthouse Forum that start off with "There I was in the lab, polishing my beaker..." DOESN'T make you a published scientist, kid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Certainly I never said I ran a lab. But I've got 5 articles in Natural Resources Research...do they count?
Click to expand...


"...when the hottest lab assistant came in and asked me if I needed any help.  She wasn't wearing anything under her lab coat."


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Well.. Welcome back.. Guess you missed the part where I listed the Noise Level from a Siemens manufacturer spec sheet.. It's 95 dbA.. And a chart that compares that to other sources at 95dbA..



I did see it. But when such levels cannot be found while standing around at the base of those things, or wandering around their bases, it peaks my interest even more. You see, the devil is always in the details. And when reality disputes the claims? THOSE are really cool things to delve into!!



			
				flacalltenn said:
			
		

> So look man.. Did you have a nice picnic in that Kansas field?? Did you score??
> But more importantly --- Did you read the SPEC SHEET to find out what the power outputs were for your sample??



Spec sheets are nice. I'll stick with reality. if I had a $1 for every time someone claimed the next new this, or how if I just read the spec sheet I certainly didn't need to visit the factory to check it out for myself, or my FAVORITE, when the head of a certain oil company told me that that Wall Street new formation was much more prolific than he was willing to claim in public, and then provided the information himself to refute that statement. 

I'll be sure to report back when I have taken the appropriate amount of time to find all those 95dB noises from those hundreds of windmills...and then I shall offer a more refined opinion than my last walk about, which didn't match your spec sheet either. But due diligence...that I will certainly do.


----------



## Amelia

I don't understand how anyone could doubt that this kind of vibration and noise relentlessly thrumming 24/7 could harm members of the animal kingdom.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well.. Welcome back.. Guess you missed the part where I listed the Noise Level from a Siemens manufacturer spec sheet.. It's 95 dbA.. And a chart that compares that to other sources at 95dbA..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did see it. But when such levels cannot be found while standing around at the base of those things, or wandering around their bases, it peaks my interest even more. You see, the devil is always in the details. And when reality disputes the claims? THOSE are really cool things to delve into!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacalltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So look man.. Did you have a nice picnic in that Kansas field?? Did you score??
> But more importantly --- Did you read the SPEC SHEET to find out what the power outputs were for your sample??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Spec sheets are nice. I'll stick with reality. if I had a $1 for every time someone claimed the next new this, or how if I just read the spec sheet I certainly didn't need to visit the factory to check it out for myself, or my FAVORITE, when the head of a certain oil company told me that that Wall Street new formation was much more prolific than he was willing to claim in public, and then provided the information himself to refute that statement.
> 
> I'll be sure to report back when I have taken the appropriate amount of time to find all those 95dB noises from those hundreds of windmills...and then I shall offer a more refined opinion than my last walk about, which didn't match your spec sheet either. But due diligence...that I will certainly do.
Click to expand...


Yeah sure.. It's plausible that BOTH GE and SIEMENS are PURPOSELY making these products LOUDER on their spec sheets than they are in real life.. 
((GoldiRocks posted a link to similiar data in a GE chart))

What the hell man? What on earth do you analyze?? 
Takes you a YEAR to read the reports and make decisions?? 

What would possess them to advertise NOISIER WIND TURBINES??? 
What is your logical process to suspect they are doing that?


----------



## RGR

Amelia said:


> I don't understand how anyone could doubt that this kind of vibration and noise relentlessly thrumming 24/7 could harm members of the animal kingdom.



What vibration and thrumming? Part of the issue is, obviously this things MUST make noise...like the wind. Like A/C current and cars and people breathing. Or high voltage lines. The question is, does it make enough to cause what some are claiming, or not?

What is your experience standing around near them?


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Yeah sure.. It's plausible that BOTH GE and SIEMENS are PURPOSELY making these products LOUDER on their spec sheets than they are in real life..



According to you, the perceived noise is dependent upon many things, including things not necessarily happening when the spec sheet was written.

So sure...there is a reason why empirical data is collected in the real world, under real world conditions.

Can't believe that you, who has pointed this out, don't appear to understand why it is necessary to do field measurements?

Particularly when my real world experience (admittedly limited) does not appear to validate the claims of horrendous and thrumming, or high dB noises in close proximity to these things.

I am willing to admit they certainly might exist, my small sample size of experience isn't near enough, but you have already pointed out how I might better my empirical sampling and I have ever intention to try.


----------



## Amelia

RGR said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand how anyone could doubt that this kind of vibration and noise relentlessly thrumming 24/7 could harm members of the animal kingdom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What vibration and thrumming? Part of the issue is, obviously this things MUST make noise...like the wind. Like A/C current and cars and people breathing. Or high voltage lines. The question is, does it make enough to cause what some are claiming, or not?
> 
> What is your experience standing around near them?
Click to expand...



I don't have experience standing around near wind turbines.

When I stand near elevators I sometimes get a little vertigo.  

Even if I didn't ever have any adverse reaction to vibrations I would hope I wouldn't discount those who said they did.  We're creatures of nature.  Not as attuned to it as our ancestors were but still affected by unnatural things.


----------



## RGR

Amelia said:


> Even if I didn't ever have any adverse reaction to vibrations I would hope I wouldn't discount those who said they did.  We're creatures of nature.  Not as attuned to it as our ancestors were but still affected by unnatural things.



Discounting what someone says requires a basis. Experience. Empirical evidence. Professional training. Something. My basis is that I went and wandered around one of these things, and did't notice the noise which some people are proclaiming causes a new disease. 

You can imagine if someone proclaimed that they had AC-itis, and proclaimed they were dying from this noise, this disease, and were going to sue their electric company for brining alternating current into their house. Whereas you, and I, who also have alternating current in our house, don't even notice.

As far as us and "nature", well, sure, once upon a time all us chimps were happily eating bananas and not worrying about wind turbines to create electricity. Nowadays, we use computers which use that wind created power to post on the internet, and that doesn't even stop us from continuing to eat bananas if we want to! So feel free to eat bananas...and post on the internet, getting the best of the "natural" and "modern" worlds!


----------



## Amelia

Those people being made ill and driven out of their homes aren't getting the best of both worlds.  Our internet connection is not more valuable than their quality of life.  People don't abandon their homes after 20 years on a whim.


----------



## gallantwarrior

jon_berzerk said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is only fair that the people complaining be offered the alternative world without electricity, anything derived from natural gas or crude oil, nukes, or any of the other mechanisms that humankind has used to make a better life for themselves.
> 
> Those who choose this alternative should be moved at taxpayer expense to a place where they can live just this way, in peace and silence and harmony. Heck, we could even designate Amish country in Pennsylvania for these folks, and they could run off and be happy.
> 
> But I'm guessing these folks drive cars, use electricity, pharmaceuticals, plastic, fly upon occasion....yup....they only bitch when someone dares to put the cost of their lifestyle directly in front of them, only THEN do they bitch.
> 
> 
> 
> We get about half our electricity from fossil fuels.
> 
> Go to your house's electrical service panel and switch off every other breaker.
> 
> You can turn them back on when "green" sources have the capability to directly replace fossil fuels.
> 
> It's only fair, right?  Or are you going to bitch when someone dares put the cost of the lifestyle you want to dictate on everyone directly in front of you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> why stop there
> 
> they also do not like hydro electric nor nuclear power
> 
> taking that into account they should flip the breakers
> 
> on all but one breaker
> 
> with that breaker being the lowest amperage
Click to expand...


I'd suggest they wire their treadmills and stairclimbers directly into their home energy grid.   How efficient and "green" is that?  Not to mention, healthy.  Want to microwave a bag of popcorn, hop on the treadmill and get to work.


----------



## gallantwarrior

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> How do you hear a turbine and feel the effects it produces BEFORE it's built?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same way I did. Admittedly, I am a naturally curious guy, but when taking personal responsibility for my energy use sometimes it requires tremendous effort! In the case of the windmills,I got off the interstate, drove up to the base of one of these monsters, and just sat there and was amazed by it. These are about 400 miles away from my house, so you can't say I didn't give it a good college try! The dumbasses who are now complaining could have sure done the same.
> 
> Smoky Hills Wind Farm - I-70 in Kansas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And others are 100% dependent on fossil fuels.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said, personal responsibility, a lost art in America. One which we should get back to, but those who can't be bothered with due diligence don't get to BITCH about how the demand they are creating is supplied.
> 
> 
> 
> My agenda is that of personal responsibility. They want to sit in the cold and dark? Certainly I don't care if that is what they want to do. Conversely, I also don't object to them sitting in the light and heat...I only object to them bitching about what the world does to give them what they want as though they bear no personal responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if the well and refinery were putting out toxic fumes that sickened you, would you bitch like a school girl?
> 
> Hint:  Yes.  Yes, you would.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fortunately windmills don't give off toxic fumes so that certainly can't be the bitch from the NIMBYs now can it? As far as living near a REAL refinery versus the kind I have creating fuel for my car, the solution is obvious. Don't live near the refinery if you don't want to be bothered by it. The NIMBYs can do the same with windmills, but they don't have to obviously because they aren't putting off toxic fumes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to decide that the problems other people have are less important than you feeling smug about saving the planet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I get to decide that people who want the benefit without the cost are clueless about where their lifestyle comes from and don't get to BITCH about it after they find out. But what they CAN do is not be hypocrites, but what are the odds that happening? Easy solution, doubt they ever even consider more than bitching. Hyperpocrites are like that.
Click to expand...


The question I'll ask is, did the NIMBYs move in _before_ or _after_ the windmills were installed?  If before, were they afforded access to public input whether such windmills should be installed in their vicinity?  If after, tough shit.  The windmills were there, if they don't like them, move on.


----------



## gallantwarrior

flacaltenn said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you're OK with making people sick if it suits your agenda?
> But killing babies is "choice"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People aren't getting sick because of nearby windmills. They are CLAIMING they are getting sick because of the windmills. Quite a difference.
> 
> And also quite common among the NIMBY set, the first line of defense in the modern world to something you disagree with is to find some basis to file a lawsuit. Sickness is a good one, psychological damage from noise (ever been within 1/4 mile of a wind turbine? I have...not sure I could even hear the blades moving to be honest, maybe a sort of hum? Low frequency kind of thing?), just take whatever the high voltage power line folks have been pretending ails them all these years and say the same things.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.. Well documented that the noise levels from megaWatt wind turbines exceed MANY suggested levels.. At nominal speeds, it's equivalent to a turboprop commuter plane..
> 
> EXCEPT --- it doesn't go away in a minute or an hour.. Widely accepted that wildlife within a couple mile radius WILL BE AFFECTED..
> 
> So the fledgling wind industry makes the same mistakes in siting these useless gimmicks that the nuclear industry did back in the 50s and 60s.. Seems like anything deemed clean and green gets NO scrutiny or impact analysis..
> 
> SITING IS AN ISSUE ---- and any current installations that violate OSHA or other recommendation levels should be removed..
Click to expand...


Considering installing a wind generator at my place.  One of the big considerations is the noise generated by the turbine.  It is suggested that you consider the line drop potential that will occur if you site your windmill at a distance that will minimize the noise impact from the "user" facility you plan to power with the wind generator.  And, yes, there is a suggestion that the noise generated can disturb livestock, etc.


----------



## gallantwarrior

flacaltenn said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then you oppose the EPA's new regulations on coal.
> 
> Hey, people getting sick is just one of the costs to the benefit lifestyle we enjoy, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm...where'd he go?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He's driving back that 400 miles to camp out under stars beneath those lovely turbines..
> Hope he doesn't get sprinkled with bat bodies or raptor guts.. ... and that he gets a good night's sleep...
Click to expand...


He probably doesn't hunt, either, so a sprinkling of bat bodies and raptor guts will be a welcome infusion of protein to his diet.


----------



## gallantwarrior

whitehall said:


> The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.



Actually, it works fairly well for individual installations if used as a backup and augmentation for solar.  Mind, I have a small place with small requirements.  I still burn a lot of wood and propane, though.


----------



## flacaltenn

gallantwarrior said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it works fairly well for individual installations if used as a backup and augmentation for solar.  Mind, I have a small place with small requirements.  I still burn a lot of wood and propane, though.
Click to expand...


Sounds complicated man. Annd thats coming from an electrical engineer.  Assuming ur grid tied, balancing and managing the generation from wind and solar aint your problem. But if you were off grid with battery storage, youd be spending your days in the control bunker making sure you didnt blow out the system on awindy sunny day and had a constant guaranteed margin for the buildings.


----------



## RGR

Amelia said:


> Those people being made ill and driven out of their homes aren't getting the best of both worlds.  Our internet connection is not more valuable than their quality of life.  People don't abandon their homes after 20 years on a whim.



The disease they are claiming does not exist. And you haven't eliminated all the OTHER diseases they could be suffering from, including the psychological ones, a necessary requirement prior to creating an entirely new one no one has ever suffered from before.

As far as abandoning their homes, people do it because they are irritated. An oil company fracks a well in your county, you become irritated and move. You get a new neighbor, he/she irritates you and you move. You realize that a slump feature in the hill beside your house might...slump...and this scares you for what might happen in the future...and you move.

You do not get to assume that the irritant for one is near the irritant for another, and you certainly don't get to create a new disease from scratch so you can go after the deep pockets to pay for the claimed consequences of your newfound irritation.


----------



## RGR

gallantwarrior said:


> I'd suggest they wire their treadmills and stairclimbers directly into their home energy grid.   How efficient and "green" is that?  Not to mention, healthy.  Want to microwave a bag of popcorn, hop on the treadmill and get to work.



Oh, it is even worse than that. In one of those NIMBY videos they admitted they hadn't gone to the planning meetings to try and understand what was going on, basically they claim that even though they had the ability to do just that, well, you know, you can't be BOTHERED to find out and put your opinion in to what is happening in your area.

Classic NIMBY, don't participate, don't understand, stand around with thumb in ass, and when something CHANGES....presto! Diseases arrive, sickness comes home to roost, the innocent landowner who couldn't be bothered must now try and walk back some multi million dollar construction project and failing that, cast about for a means to access the nearest deep pocket to pay for their ignorance.


----------



## gallantwarrior

flacaltenn said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The junk technology doesn't produce enough energy to be meaningful to anybody but the radical left and when you factor in the cost of maintenance and fossil fuel energy to keep the monsters running it is not cost effective. If you include the credible evidence of health issues from living near a gigantic low frequency generator and the injury to migratory wildlife it's a freaking failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it works fairly well for individual installations if used as a backup and augmentation for solar.  Mind, I have a small place with small requirements.  I still burn a lot of wood and propane, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sounds complicated man. Annd thats coming from an electrical engineer.  Assuming ur grid tied, balancing and managing the generation from wind and solar aint your problem. But if you were off grid with battery storage, youd be spending your days in the control bunker making sure you didnt blow out the system on awindy sunny day and had a constant guaranteed margin for the buildings.
Click to expand...


Actually, most smaller turbines are designed to drop off line if the wind speed exceeds a certain kph.  In some ways the system itself, it's operation and maintenance, is similar to the turbine-driven generators installed on aircraft.  They do require more maintenance than a solar array, though.  I've had solar at my place for a couple of years and it works pretty well.  I'm planning on installing a wind generator after I've had a chance to clear more trees.  Gotta have an open area where the wind will be effective.  Right now, I use an old Subaru as a backup generator.  
I am off grid and plan to stay that way, too.


----------



## RGR

gallantwarrior said:


> He probably doesn't hunt, either, so a sprinkling of bat bodies and raptor guts will be a welcome infusion of protein to his diet.



Started supplying the family with venison at age 12 actually. Still keep the 348 Winchester around lest a nice mule deer wander through the yard at the wrong time of year.


----------



## RGR

gallantwarrior said:


> I've had solar at my place for a couple of years and it works pretty well.
> I am off grid and plan to stay that way, too.



I'm not off grid, and I use solar. I do place a priority on "easy" though, easy meaning as little interference with a normal grid supported home operation as possible. I just want the watts, and when I don't need them, just pass them along to the next house please.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I didn't ever have any adverse reaction to vibrations I would hope I wouldn't discount those who said they did.  We're creatures of nature.  Not as attuned to it as our ancestors were but still affected by unnatural things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Discounting what someone says requires a basis. Experience. Empirical evidence. Professional training. Something. My basis is that I went and wandered around one of these things, and did't notice the noise which some people are proclaiming causes a new disease.
> 
> You can imagine if someone proclaimed that they had AC-itis, and proclaimed they were dying from this noise, this disease, and were going to sue their electric company for brining alternating current into their house. Whereas you, and I, who also have alternating current in our house, don't even notice.
> 
> As far as us and "nature", well, sure, once upon a time all us chimps were happily eating bananas and not worrying about wind turbines to create electricity. Nowadays, we use computers which use that wind created power to post on the internet, and that doesn't even stop us from continuing to eat bananas if we want to! So feel free to eat bananas...and post on the internet, getting the best of the "natural" and "modern" worlds!
Click to expand...

Your basis for objection to the OP is anecdotal and therefore worthless.

If you had any integrity, you'd go to the town in question and live there.

But your childish jumping and and down and screeching "It's not happening!!" is less than compelling.


----------



## Ernie S.

RGR said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those people being made ill and driven out of their homes aren't getting the best of both worlds.  Our internet connection is not more valuable than their quality of life.  People don't abandon their homes after 20 years on a whim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The disease they are claiming does not exist. And you haven't eliminated all the OTHER diseases they could be suffering from, including the psychological ones, a necessary requirement prior to creating an entirely new one no one has ever suffered from before.
> 
> As far as abandoning their homes, people do it because they are irritated. An oil company fracks a well in your county, you become irritated and move. You get a new neighbor, he/she irritates you and you move. You realize that a slump feature in the hill beside your house might...slump...and this scares you for what might happen in the future...and you move.
> 
> You do not get to assume that the irritant for one is near the irritant for another, and you certainly don't get to create a new disease from scratch so you can go after the deep pockets to pay for the claimed consequences of your newfound irritation.
Click to expand...


So you assume their illness is imaginary because is hasn't affected you. OK, let's suppose you are allergic to peanuts and I knowingly feed you food containing them. Because I am unaffected, I should assume your anaphylaxis is imagined?


----------



## flacaltenn

flacaltenn said:


> And if you think that the people OBJECTING to these poor choice of sitings are all anti-wind cranks ---
> 
> You need to watch THIS ONE.. Where most of the people interviewed were ALL FOR the wind project. But feel that they were GREATLY LIED to and had facts misrepresented.. Watch to end about the misrepresentation of property value impact..
> 
> NO SITINGS like the ones depicted here ought to EVER have been allowed....
> 
> Voices of Vinalhaven, Maine: wind turbine noise Part 1 - YouTube



If RGR thinks that the problem was these folks DIDN'T attend meetings, he needs to REWATCH the actual statements of THESE FOLKS who were LIED TO at those meetings.



> * "I was reassured by George Baker, head of Fox Island Wind, the sounds of the turbines at 1000 feet away... would be like a quiet conversation in a living room*"



Their problem was the media and the green eco-frauds had sold them on the concept that wind is cute and cuddly and effiecient and that they would be saving the planet. 

So, in the words of a woman in the above interview, THEY DIDN'T do further research or go as a group to OTHER SITES that were poorly sited near neighborhoods.. 

The lying WILL STOP as the experiences become more widespread. And the Wind frauds will have to stop and consider the effects BEFORE they poorly site another project. The truth is slowly getting it's pants on.. (See Mark Twain -- who said "A lie can travel halfway round the world before the truth even gets it's pants on") And those lies INCLUDE the false advertising of the economic benefits of wind projects..


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> Your basis for objection to the OP is anecdotal and therefore worthless.



The disease that these folks are coming up with is anecdotal, certainly what is good for the goose is good for the gander. 



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> If you had any integrity, you'd go to the town in question and live there.



Hogwash. Integrity involves NIMBYs coming up with real reasons for trying to stop development BEFORE said development took place, and yet they refused to do so. A simple trip to Kansas would have shown them what was going to start happening, but they couldn't be bothered to LEARN. Caveat Emptor. I recommend paying more attention prior to deciding that diseases need to be manufactured to correct for stupidity.




			
				daveman said:
			
		

> But your childish jumping and and down and screeching "It's not happening!!" is less than compelling.



Learn how to read. I said no such thing.


----------



## RGR

Ernie S. said:


> So you assume their illness is imaginary because is hasn't affected you.



Incorrect. I only note that they claim an illness which does not exist.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> If RGR thinks that the problem was these folks DIDN'T attend meetings, he needs to REWATCH the actual statements of THESE FOLKS who were LIED TO at those meetings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * "I was reassured by George Baker, head of Fox Island Wind, the sounds of the turbines at 1000 feet away... would be like a quiet conversation in a living room*"
Click to expand...


You appear to be taking NIMBYs at their word. Once upon a time, I did as well. Then when the things they claimed were contradicting the physical laws of the universe and whatnot, well, who do you believe then? NIMBYs, or Sir Isaac Newton and Co.?



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> Their problem was the media and the green eco-frauds had sold them on the concept that wind is cute and cuddly and effiecient and that they would be saving the planet.



So have them take up their beef with the eco-frauds or the locals who they claim misled them (also without going to Kansas or Texas to hear for themselves), but don't EVER expect them to have investigated for themselves...oh no...we can't have ANY personal responsibility in America nowadays, can we? We need someone to blame for not doing our due diligence, preferably someone with deep pockets.


----------



## Againsheila

Ernie S. said:


> Two wind turbines towering above the Cape Cod community of Falmouth, Mass., were intended to produce green energy and savings -- but they've created angst and division, and may now be removed at a high cost as neighbors complain of noise and illness.
> 
> "It gets to be jet-engine loud," said Falmouth resident Neil Andersen. He and his wife Betsy live just a quarter mile from one of the turbines. They say the impact on their health has been devastating. They're suffering headaches, dizziness and sleep deprivation and often seek to escape the property where they've lived for more than 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Cape Cod community considers taking down wind turbines after illness, noise | Fox News
> 
> So it's not only songbirds and eagles being harmed by the monstrosities?
Click to expand...


I'm confused, I don't know why this is causing health problems or if it is causing health problems.  I live in the flight path of Sea Tac International Airport.  Can I blame my headaches on them and get them to stop the planes?


----------



## flacaltenn

Againsheila said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two wind turbines towering above the Cape Cod community of Falmouth, Mass., were intended to produce green energy and savings -- but they've created angst and division, and may now be removed at a high cost as neighbors complain of noise and illness.
> 
> "It gets to be jet-engine loud," said Falmouth resident Neil Andersen. He and his wife Betsy live just a quarter mile from one of the turbines. They say the impact on their health has been devastating. They're suffering headaches, dizziness and sleep deprivation and often seek to escape the property where they've lived for more than 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Cape Cod community considers taking down wind turbines after illness, noise | Fox News
> 
> So it's not only songbirds and eagles being harmed by the monstrosities?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm confused, I don't know why this is causing health problems or if it is causing health problems.  I live in the flight path of Sea Tac International Airport.  Can I blame my headaches on them and get them to stop the planes?
Click to expand...


Probably not because 
1) Sea-Tac was there before you were.
2) They are already COMPLYING with applicable regulations and monitoring. 

Go to Sea-Tac and visit the "Noise Abatement Office".. Sometimes it's right in a Terminal with recordings of the all the arrival and departure noise levels.. 

So --- when are these wind farm operators gonna do the same? 
And when are they gonna stop lying in order to get approvals for sitings?


----------



## Againsheila

flacaltenn said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Cape Cod community considers taking down wind turbines after illness, noise | Fox News
> 
> So it's not only songbirds and eagles being harmed by the monstrosities?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused, I don't know why this is causing health problems or if it is causing health problems.  I live in the flight path of Sea Tac International Airport.  Can I blame my headaches on them and get them to stop the planes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably not because
> 1) Sea-Tac was there before you were.
> 2) They are already COMPLYING with applicable regulations and monitoring.
> 
> Go to Sea-Tac and visit the "Noise Abatement Office".. Sometimes it's right in a Terminal with recordings of the all the arrival and departure noise levels..
> 
> So --- when are these wind farm operators gonna do the same?
> And when are they gonna stop lying in order to get approvals for sitings?
Click to expand...


The airport was there but the 3rd runway wasn't AND they've changed the routes so that most of the planes fly right over my house, where they used to have to fly around north and come in so that the noise was spread out, but those in the north have more money than those of us in the south so now they all go right over my house.  In the summer, you can't carry on a conversation in the back yard that lasts more than 5 minutes without getting interrupted.  That was never like that back in the late 60's and early 70's when I was growing up down the block.


----------



## flacaltenn

Againsheila said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused, I don't know why this is causing health problems or if it is causing health problems.  I live in the flight path of Sea Tac International Airport.  Can I blame my headaches on them and get them to stop the planes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not because
> 1) Sea-Tac was there before you were.
> 2) They are already COMPLYING with applicable regulations and monitoring.
> 
> Go to Sea-Tac and visit the "Noise Abatement Office".. Sometimes it's right in a Terminal with recordings of the all the arrival and departure noise levels..
> 
> So --- when are these wind farm operators gonna do the same?
> And when are they gonna stop lying in order to get approvals for sitings?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The airport was there but the 3rd runway wasn't AND they've changed the routes so that most of the planes fly right over my house, where they used to have to fly around north and come in so that the noise was spread out, but those in the north have more money than those of us in the south so now they all go right over my house.  In the summer, you can't carry on a conversation in the back yard that lasts more than 5 minutes without getting interrupted.  That was never like that back in the late 60's and early 70's when I was growing up down the block.
Click to expand...



You have my support and sympathy.. But don't expect any from RGR.. He's off the charts in lack of compassion or patience for folks with enviro nuisances.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> If RGR thinks that the problem was these folks DIDN'T attend meetings, he needs to REWATCH the actual statements of THESE FOLKS who were LIED TO at those meetings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * "I was reassured by George Baker, head of Fox Island Wind, the sounds of the turbines at 1000 feet away... would be like a quiet conversation in a living room*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You appear to be taking NIMBYs at their word. Once upon a time, I did as well. Then when the things they claimed were contradicting the physical laws of the universe and whatnot, well, who do you believe then? NIMBYs, or Sir Isaac Newton and Co.?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their problem was the media and the green eco-frauds had sold them on the concept that wind is cute and cuddly and effiecient and that they would be saving the planet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So have them take up their beef with the eco-frauds or the locals who they claim misled them (also without going to Kansas or Texas to hear for themselves), but don't EVER expect them to have investigated for themselves...oh no...we can't have ANY personal responsibility in America nowadays, can we? We need someone to blame for not doing our due diligence, preferably someone with deep pockets.
Click to expand...


Who's contradicting the laws of Newton?? 

As far as not believing folks --- you should read that quote in my footer again.. It serves me well on public forums where you run into a lot of folks who don't believe a word you say. Even when you quote the manufacturers' spec sheet.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your basis for objection to the OP is anecdotal and therefore worthless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The disease that these folks are coming up with is anecdotal, certainly what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you had any integrity, you'd go to the town in question and live there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hogwash. Integrity involves NIMBYs coming up with real reasons for trying to stop development BEFORE said development took place, and yet they refused to do so. A simple trip to Kansas would have shown them what was going to start happening, but they couldn't be bothered to LEARN. Caveat Emptor. I recommend paying more attention prior to deciding that diseases need to be manufactured to correct for stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But your childish jumping and and down and screeching "It's not happening!!" is less than compelling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Learn how to read. I said no such thing.
Click to expand...

Let me see if I can possibly distort my thinking enough to understand you.

You're saying the people in Falmouth should have visited Kansas to see what was going to happen to them (which you claim isn't) so they could have made an informed decision about siting the wind farm in town.

You say it's happening in Kansas, but not in Falmouth.  

Please explain this, if you can.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you assume their illness is imaginary because is hasn't affected you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. I only note that they claim an illness which does not exist.
Click to expand...


When did you get your medical degree -- before or after you drove through a Kansas wind farm?


----------



## Vox

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to dictate how other people live their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, true. But people don't get to BITCH about how they live their lives when confronted by the COSTS of how they live their lives.
Click to expand...


yes, they do. and they can also discard what impairs their lives no matter how much you would like to impose that on them


----------



## Ernie S.

RGR said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you assume their illness is imaginary because is hasn't affected you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. I only note that they claim an illness which does not exist.
Click to expand...


So, your anaphylaxis IS imagined. OK.

They have an illness you haven't experienced, so you are assuming they are faking it.
These people have been living (most of them) in the same houses for years. Suddenly after the turbines were installed, they have medical complaints that you haven't experienced in your admittedly scant experience consisting of a brief visit to a different site.

Really! You should give up now and try to salvage some shred of dignity.


----------



## daveman

Ernie S. said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you assume their illness is imaginary because is hasn't affected you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. I only note that they claim an illness which does not exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, your anaphylaxis IS imagined. OK.
> 
> They have an illness you haven't experienced, so you are assuming they are faking it.
> These people have been living (most of them) in the same houses for years. Suddenly after the turbines were installed, they have medical complaints that you haven't experienced in your admittedly scant experience consisting of a brief visit to a different site.
> 
> Really! You should give up now and try to salvage some shred of dignity.
Click to expand...


----------



## Againsheila

Ernie S. said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you assume their illness is imaginary because is hasn't affected you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. I only note that they claim an illness which does not exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, your anaphylaxis IS imagined. OK.
> 
> They have an illness you haven't experienced, so you are assuming they are faking it.
> These people have been living (most of them) in the same houses for years. Suddenly after the turbines were installed, they have medical complaints that you haven't experienced in your admittedly scant experience consisting of a brief visit to a different site.
> 
> Really! You should give up now and try to salvage some shred of dignity.
Click to expand...


I don't know if they are faking it our not, but I do know that there is something known as psychosomatic illness.  I would think they'd make sure before spending millions getting rid of the wind turbines.


----------



## RGR

Againsheila said:


> I'm confused, I don't know why this is causing health problems or if it is causing health problems.  I live in the flight path of Sea Tac International Airport.  Can I blame my headaches on them and get them to stop the planes?



Of course you can. We will call it...AirplaneNoiseNIMBY-itis Syndrome. You will need a Youtube video showing some plane flying over and the attendant noise (don't do this from inside the house where you don't actually hear any noise, go outside, get a directional mike if necessary, and point it at the plane) and hopefully you will have a sympathetic neighbor who can build a website to complain about this noise and attendant disease, or better yet a doctor or will invent a cooler sounding name than AirplaneNoiseNIMBY-itis Syndrome.

You then need to detail the horrifying consequences of this disease day by day on a blog somewhere, factual evidence is no longer required, just really cool stories about how AirplaneNoise-Itis Syndrome has changed your life. Presto!! 

There has to be a book on how to do this somewhere, when people do this it can't be coincidental that they follow the same basic script.


----------



## RGR

Againsheila said:


> The airport was there but the 3rd runway wasn't AND they've changed the routes so that most of the planes fly right over my house, where they used to have to fly around north and come in so that the noise was spread out, but those in the north have more money than those of us in the south so now they all go right over my house.  In the summer, you can't carry on a conversation in the back yard that lasts more than 5 minutes without getting interrupted.  That was never like that back in the late 60's and early 70's when I was growing up down the block.



You need the cool disease name. It lends so much more credibility to the story.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> Who's contradicting the laws of Newton??



The anti-fracking types. They have this weird notion that a perfectly stationary and stable water molecule will suddenly spring into action with no force applied, migrate a mile this way, a mile that way, contaminate itself with whatever it finds along its path, burrow 2 miles out of the ground and through this immaculate conception arrive at their spigot.

Weird.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> Let me see if I can possibly distort my thinking enough to understand you.



If by that you mean gain enough experience to get processes and procedures past an Academy of Science review, I doubt you have the time, took me 15 years to learn how to pull that one off.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> You're saying the people in Falmouth should have visited Kansas to see what was going to happen to them (which you claim isn't) so they could have made an informed decision about siting the wind farm in town.



Close. The idea is that they should have done their due diligence. If that means going to Kansas because they are the only operative wind mills in the country, then maybe that is what  they could have done. They could have read the information provided by Falcaltenn, they could have checked out those Youtube videos proclaiming there was an issue, there are MANY ways to complete some due diligence prior to deciding to advocate one way or another for local electrical generation. Kansas is just my example if I had no other alternatives, a simple google search reveals the Kansas and Roscoe Texas wind farms, which are closer to liberal land than the ones that have been spinning in the Mohave for at least a decade (first saw them back in 2001 I believe).

Due diligence....they should have done more than talk to some other local windignoramous.



			
				daveman said:
			
		

> You say it's happening in Kansas, but not in Falmouth.
> 
> Please explain this, if you can.



I didn't say it is not happening in Falmouth, I said it certainly wasn't apparent listening to Kansas wind turbines that they were creating enough noise to be very noticeable, while standing right beside them.

Falcaltenn informed me that sound moves around, and the harmonics from multiples of these things might behave differently, and so I have devised a different "listening" routine next time to see if these "noisy" spots can be found.

It is completely possible that every wind turbine in Massachusetts is like having an F16 on afterburner planted in someones back yard...possible....but unlikely. It is also possible that type of turbine is much louder than the ones in Kansas. More possible. Less unlikely. 

Having extensive NIMBY experience, based on the evidence presented so far, IMHO this all sounds like a standard script. In the end, to solve the problem, I might have to go all the way to Massachusetts to wile away an afternoon appreciating these fine electrical generating devices to see for myself.

Haven't been there in awhile, might be worth a trip this coming spring or summer.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you assume their illness is imaginary because is hasn't affected you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. I only note that they claim an illness which does not exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did you get your medical degree -- before or after you drove through a Kansas wind farm?
Click to expand...


google is your friend.

Selected goodies for those who think this isn't NIMBYism.



			
				reference said:
			
		

> In 2011, a doctor at Harvard Medical School diagnosed Hobart with wind turbine syndrome, which is not recognized by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> The name was coined by Nina Pierpont, a John Hopkins University-trained pediatrician, whose husband is an anti-wind activist, criticizing the economics and physics of wind power. Pierpont, who lives in upstate New York, calls wind turbine syndrome the green energy industry's "dirty little secret." She self-published "Wind Turbine Syndrome" in 2009, including case studies of people who lived within 1.25 miles of these "spinning giants" who reportedly got sick.
> 
> But her wind-turbine research has been criticized for improper peer review (Pierpont reportedly chose her reviewers), and for its methodology -- small sample size, no control group and the fact that she did not examine her subjects or their medical records but interviewed them by phone.
> 
> Neither Pierpont nor her husband, Calvin Luther Martin, responded to ABCNews.com's request for comment.



Always follow the money...NIMBYs usually demand it.



			
				reference said:
			
		

> Hobart and her husband, Edward, filed a nuisance claim last Feb. 5 in Barnstable Superior Court against Notus Clean Energy and its owner, Dan Webb. According to the Hobarts' lawyer, Democratic State Rep. Brian Mannal, they are seeking between $150,000 and $300,000 in damages for loss of value of their home, and for medical bills.
> 
> They filed an earlier nuisance complaint against the town in July 2012, but the judge granted the defendants' motion to dismiss on Dec. 3, 2012.








'Wind Turbine Syndrome' Blamed for Mysterious Symptoms in Cape Cod Town - ABC News


----------



## Againsheila

RGR said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused, I don't know why this is causing health problems or if it is causing health problems.  I live in the flight path of Sea Tac International Airport.  Can I blame my headaches on them and get them to stop the planes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can. We will call it...AirplaneNoiseNIMBY-itis Syndrome. You will need a Youtube video showing some plane flying over and the attendant noise (*don't do this from inside the house where you don't actually hear any noise*, go outside, get a directional mike if necessary, and point it at the plane) and hopefully you will have a sympathetic neighbor who can build a website to complain about this noise and attendant disease, or better yet a doctor or will invent a cooler sounding name than AirplaneNoiseNIMBY-itis Syndrome.
> 
> You then need to detail the horrifying consequences of this disease day by day on a blog somewhere, factual evidence is no longer required, just really cool stories about how AirplaneNoise-Itis Syndrome has changed your life. Presto!!
> 
> There has to be a book on how to do this somewhere, when people do this it can't be coincidental that they follow the same basic script.
Click to expand...


Actually we do hear the noise even inside the house with the windows closed, and those planes don't stop, day or night.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's contradicting the laws of Newton??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The anti-fracking types. They have this weird notion that a perfectly stationary and stable water molecule will suddenly spring into action with no force applied, migrate a mile this way, a mile that way, contaminate itself with whatever it finds along its path, burrow 2 miles out of the ground and through this immaculate conception arrive at their spigot.
> 
> Weird.
Click to expand...


I can understand that.. These are the same folks blindly LUSTING for the wind mills we are discussing. They don't bother themselves with spec sheets, or daily production charts, or the costs of building a REAL primary generator alongside their wind toy.

They are --- essentially useful tools for Big Green Energy. Their brethren in the UK LEARNED their lesson when they had a hissy fit to build "biomass conversion" and discovered that they just voted themselves into having garbage incinerators in THEIR backyards. They are now very very sad tools.. 

Much like these communities that THOUGHT they understood wind energy and now have discovered the plight of being tools..


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's contradicting the laws of Newton??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The anti-fracking types.
> 
> Weird.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can understand that.. These are the same folks blindly LUSTING for the wind mills we are discussing. They don't bother themselves with spec sheets, or daily production charts, or the costs of building a REAL primary generator alongside their wind toy.
Click to expand...


Too many zealots, ideologues, faith based believers in the world today.



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> Much like these communities that THOUGHT they understood wind energy and now have discovered the plight of being tools..



Maybe they'll learn? Maybe they won't. I am agnostic about my electricity, to be honest.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me see if I can possibly distort my thinking enough to understand you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If by that you mean gain enough experience to get processes and procedures past an Academy of Science review, I doubt you have the time, took me 15 years to learn how to pull that one off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're saying the people in Falmouth should have visited Kansas to see what was going to happen to them (which you claim isn't) so they could have made an informed decision about siting the wind farm in town.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Close. The idea is that they should have done their due diligence. If that means going to Kansas because they are the only operative wind mills in the country, then maybe that is what  they could have done. They could have read the information provided by Falcaltenn, they could have checked out those Youtube videos proclaiming there was an issue, there are MANY ways to complete some due diligence prior to deciding to advocate one way or another for local electrical generation. Kansas is just my example if I had no other alternatives, a simple google search reveals the Kansas and Roscoe Texas wind farms, which are closer to liberal land than the ones that have been spinning in the Mohave for at least a decade (first saw them back in 2001 I believe).
> 
> Due diligence....they should have done more than talk to some other local windignoramous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You say it's happening in Kansas, but not in Falmouth.
> 
> Please explain this, if you can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say it is not happening in Falmouth, I said it certainly wasn't apparent listening to Kansas wind turbines that they were creating enough noise to be very noticeable, while standing right beside them.
> 
> Falcaltenn informed me that sound moves around, and the harmonics from multiples of these things might behave differently, and so I have devised a different "listening" routine next time to see if these "noisy" spots can be found.
> 
> It is completely possible that every wind turbine in Massachusetts is like having an F16 on afterburner planted in someones back yard...possible....but unlikely. It is also possible that type of turbine is much louder than the ones in Kansas. More possible. Less unlikely.
> 
> Having extensive NIMBY experience, based on the evidence presented so far, IMHO this all sounds like a standard script. In the end, to solve the problem, I might have to go all the way to Massachusetts to wile away an afternoon appreciating these fine electrical generating devices to see for myself.
> 
> Haven't been there in awhile, might be worth a trip this coming spring or summer.
Click to expand...

I'm curious...do arrogant asses naturally gravitate to progressivism, or does progressivism lead to arrogant assery?

Falmouth's turbines suck, and the locals don't want them anymore.  Your petulant foot-stamping does not change that fact.

Grow up, kid.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. I only note that they claim an illness which does not exist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When did you get your medical degree -- before or after you drove through a Kansas wind farm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> google is your friend.
Click to expand...

Odd...I searched for "When did rgr get his medical degree" and didn't get a date.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Whe...e=UTF-8#q=When+did+rgr+get+his+medical+degree

Because, you know, that was the question I asked.


RGR said:


> Selected goodies for those who think this isn't NIMBYism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reference said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2011, a doctor at Harvard Medical School diagnosed Hobart with wind turbine syndrome, which is not recognized by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> The name was coined by Nina Pierpont, a John Hopkins University-trained pediatrician, whose husband is an anti-wind activist, criticizing the economics and physics of wind power. Pierpont, who lives in upstate New York, calls wind turbine syndrome the green energy industry's "dirty little secret." She self-published "Wind Turbine Syndrome" in 2009, including case studies of people who lived within 1.25 miles of these "spinning giants" who reportedly got sick.
> 
> But her wind-turbine research has been criticized for improper peer review (Pierpont reportedly chose her reviewers), and for its methodology -- small sample size, no control group and the fact that she did not examine her subjects or their medical records but interviewed them by phone.
> 
> Neither Pierpont nor her husband, Calvin Luther Martin, responded to ABCNews.com's request for comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Always follow the money...NIMBYs usually demand it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reference said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hobart and her husband, Edward, filed a nuisance claim last Feb. 5 in Barnstable Superior Court against Notus Clean Energy and its owner, Dan Webb. According to the Hobarts' lawyer, Democratic State Rep. Brian Mannal, they are seeking between $150,000 and $300,000 in damages for loss of value of their home, and for medical bills.
> 
> They filed an earlier nuisance complaint against the town in July 2012, but the judge granted the defendants' motion to dismiss on Dec. 3, 2012.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Wind Turbine Syndrome' Blamed for Mysterious Symptoms in Cape Cod Town - ABC News
Click to expand...

It would be funny if someone built a coal-fired power plant in your neighborhood.  Your whining would be epic.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> I'm curious...do arrogant asses naturally gravitate to progressivism, or does progressivism lead to arrogant assery?



Dunno. Go ask one.



			
				Daveman said:
			
		

> Falmouth's turbines suck, and the locals don't want them anymore.  Your petulant foot-stamping does not change that fact.
> 
> Grow up, kid.



Falmouth's turbines are doing exactly what they are designed to do, in exactly the way they were designed to do it, and were presented to the people in advance of their construction, should they desire to change, debate or stop those plans.

They didn't. 

NIMBYs bitching like deflowered cheerleaders after a raucous prom night does not change these facts. Your enabling of those who wish to duck personal responsibility at every opportunity marks you quite a bit better than your estimate of my age.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> It would be funny if someone built a coal-fired power plant in your neighborhood.  Your whining would be epic.



My whining would not exist. I would move if it bothered me. It is what normal folks do. We don't invent diseases that don't exist, we don't start internet whining and bitching campaigns pretending to be a victim (interestingly, of their own ignorance in this case) or do youtube videos demanding others lacking in character to join in, creating some sort of excuse reinforcement group.

We complete our due diligence, we think critically about what we want, and what we don't want, we pay attention, and when the time comes, we act.

You support and hang out with the whiners and moaners and criers if you want, but certainly you are in no position to demand that those of us not so morally crippled should do the same.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious...do arrogant asses naturally gravitate to progressivism, or does progressivism lead to arrogant assery?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno. Go ask one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falmouth's turbines suck, and the locals don't want them anymore.  Your petulant foot-stamping does not change that fact.
> 
> Grow up, kid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Falmouth's turbines are doing exactly what they are designed to do, in exactly the way they were designed to do it, and were presented to the people in advance of their construction, should they desire to change, debate or stop those plans.
> 
> They didn't.
> 
> NIMBYs bitching like deflowered cheerleaders after a raucous prom night does not change these facts. Your enabling of those who wish to duck personal responsibility at every opportunity marks you quite a bit better than your estimate of my age.
Click to expand...


And there it is --- the debased justification for opportunistically snatching someone's virginity on Prom night.. Figure you would make a good politician.. 

Actually --- that's the only point I agree with you on.. These folks SHOULD have been more pro-active. But they were CONDITIONED by the media and peer pressure to believe they were being altruistic and saving the world. 

Your argument however --- does fall apart in the same manner as your more technical objections. Because these folks appear to have been ACTIVELY DEFRAUDED. And as you know, they don't have to whine and sniffle like that deflowered virgin. They HAVE remedies and APPARENTLY --- they intend to use them.. 

So YOU have to STFU (like that's gonna happen) and let the system work. 
We will discover whether this nuisance was CONSENTUAL or rape..


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would be funny if someone built a coal-fired power plant in your neighborhood.  Your whining would be epic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My whining would not exist. I would move if it bothered me. It is what normal folks do. We don't invent diseases that don't exist, we don't start internet whining and bitching campaigns pretending to be a victim (interestingly, of their own ignorance in this case) or do youtube videos demanding others lacking in character to join in, creating some sort of excuse reinforcement group.
> 
> We complete our due diligence, we think critically about what we want, and what we don't want, we pay attention, and when the time comes, we act.
> 
> You support and hang out with the whiners and moaners and criers if you want, but certainly you are in no position to demand that those of us not so morally crippled should do the same.
Click to expand...


I highly doubt the you would "just move".. Because the damages to your property values would probably prevent you from walking away from that disaster with enough equity to obtain a similiar residence. Unless you ARE really a progressive and becoming a "brave victim" is more valuable to you than your homestead value.

No diseases NEED to be invented here. Environmental noise is a known nuisance and can affect health. No special attribution to Wind Turbines required. Just the PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE that these power generators are like any other long-lasting noise source.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious...do arrogant asses naturally gravitate to progressivism, or does progressivism lead to arrogant assery?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno. Go ask one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falmouth's turbines suck, and the locals don't want them anymore.  Your petulant foot-stamping does not change that fact.
> 
> Grow up, kid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Falmouth's turbines are doing exactly what they are designed to do, in exactly the way they were designed to do it, and were presented to the people in advance of their construction, should they desire to change, debate or stop those plans.
> 
> They didn't.
> 
> NIMBYs bitching like deflowered cheerleaders after a raucous prom night does not change these facts. Your enabling of those who wish to duck personal responsibility at every opportunity marks you quite a bit better than your estimate of my age.
Click to expand...

Are you aware yet of the extent of your impotence?  Your grand pronouncements have less effect on Falmouth than the gravitational pull of Pluto.  

But my all means, keep whining.  It's still slightly entertaining.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would be funny if someone built a coal-fired power plant in your neighborhood.  Your whining would be epic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My whining would not exist. I would move if it bothered me. It is what normal folks do. We don't invent diseases that don't exist, we don't start internet whining and bitching campaigns pretending to be a victim (interestingly, of their own ignorance in this case) or do youtube videos demanding others lacking in character to join in, creating some sort of excuse reinforcement group.
> 
> We complete our due diligence, we think critically about what we want, and what we don't want, we pay attention, and when the time comes, we act.
> 
> You support and hang out with the whiners and moaners and criers if you want, but certainly you are in no position to demand that those of us not so morally crippled should do the same.
Click to expand...

And yet, somehow, YOU'RE in a position to demand that the people in Falmouth STFU and put up with the turbines.

And the REALLY funny part?  _You actually believe that_.

I'm going to laugh in your face now, and there's absolutely NOTHING you can do about it.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> And there it is --- the debased justification for opportunistically snatching someone's virginity on Prom night.. Figure you would make a good politician..
> 
> Actually --- that's the only point I agree with you on.. These folks SHOULD have been more pro-active. But they were CONDITIONED by the media and peer pressure to believe they were being altruistic and saving the world.



As they say within the jurisprudence world, ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it. Claiming that the MSM and your idiot neighbor or incompetent political leadership you voted for (or not) made you suffer from a lack of personal responsibility and the ability to think for yourself doesn't fly either.

Peer pressure? You are referring to the famous parent line of "if your friends jump off a cliff are you going to do it too?".

At the end of the day, it all comes back around to each and every one of us taking responsibility for our actions, and those consequences. Consequences like having nonsense shoved down our throats because we elect certain people. Consequences like people building stuff near us we don't like because we can't be bothered to find out in advance about the consequences of those things near us.

A sign on my desk when someone comes to me with a problem, " You Can't Fix Stupid, so Don't Ask Me To".



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> Your argument however --- does fall apart in the same manner as your more technical objections. Because these folks appear to have been ACTIVELY DEFRAUDED.



People are being actively defrauded everyday. My observation on fraud is that it is MUCH easier to do to people who don't take personal responsibility for their actions and therefore never feel bothered to do their due diligence.



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> And as you know, they don't have to whine and sniffle like that deflowered virgin. They HAVE remedies and APPARENTLY --- they intend to use them..



Excellent. No complaints with people remedying a possible fraud after the fact....I object to the bitching and whining as a remedy, the creating fake diseases to generate sympathy, the playing the victim routine. I think it is excellent that they sue and settle the dispute where such disputes are supposed to be settled.

The hysterics are my primary objection, followed soon thereafter by the enablers who always fall for the routine of those claiming victim.


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> I highly doubt the you would "just move".. Because the damages to your property values would probably prevent you from walking away from that disaster with enough equity to obtain a similiar residence. Unless you ARE really a progressive and becoming a "brave victim" is more valuable to you than your homestead value.



You would be wrong. Because you aren't aware of my personal situation of course. I wouldn't lose a dime moving, and never have. Even more important, I have an interesting job, particularly as it pertains to where I live in relation to where I work. It allows me to claim I will move with really only ONE consideration...where do I want the kids to finish their high school education. Nothing more.

Build a nuke plant in my back yard. I move to the other side of the school district, or county, if I decide it is important to keep the kids in the same school. Or maybe I move from the Colorado suburbs to a mountain town in West Virginia. Or Tennessee. My job travels with me, so where I live is purely personal choice. I choose here. Build a nuke plant next door, and maybe I land in Juneau. Or Key West. Once all the kids are done with high school, I look forward to taking advantage of just this sort of flexibility.



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> No diseases NEED to be invented here.



Then someone should tell them to stop.



			
				flacaltenn said:
			
		

> Environmental noise is a known nuisance and can affect health.



I have no doubt. But "can affect" is quite different than "is". Having to invent new diseases to garner sympathy is a tip off that the standard NIMBY victim routine certainly might be coming into play.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> Your grand pronouncements have less effect on Falmouth than the gravitational pull of Pluto.



What grand pronouncements? For those with your poor reading comprehension (don't get me started on that topic, no matter how well you continually demonstrate it) my main point is that America has raised way too many whiners over the past half century, it is amazing how gullible the remainder are and how fast they fall for the victim card when it is played.

Not a grand pronouncement in sight, just an observation on how this country has changed even during my lifetime.


----------



## RGR

daveman said:


> And yet, somehow, YOU'RE in a position to demand that the people in Falmouth STFU and put up with the turbines.



I certainly never said that. But I've already noted your poor reading comprehension, so your inability to demonstrate understanding isn't a surprise.


----------



## daveman

RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your grand pronouncements have less effect on Falmouth than the gravitational pull of Pluto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What grand pronouncements? For those with your poor reading comprehension (don't get me started on that topic, no matter how well you continually demonstrate it) my main point is that America has raised way too many whiners over the past half century, it is amazing how gullible the remainder are and how fast they fall for the victim card when it is played.
> 
> Not a grand pronouncement in sight, just an observation on how this country has changed even during my lifetime.
Click to expand...




RGR said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, somehow, YOU'RE in a position to demand that the people in Falmouth STFU and put up with the turbines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly never said that. But I've already noted your poor reading comprehension, so your inability to demonstrate understanding isn't a surprise.
Click to expand...


It's always funny when we play The Progressive Didn't Say What He Said.  

Oddly enough, the progressive always seems to lose.


----------



## flacaltenn

RGR said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt the you would "just move".. Because the damages to your property values would probably prevent you from walking away from that disaster with enough equity to obtain a similiar residence. Unless you ARE really a progressive and becoming a "brave victim" is more valuable to you than your homestead value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You would be wrong. Because you aren't aware of my personal situation of course. I wouldn't lose a dime moving, and never have. Even more important, I have an interesting job, particularly as it pertains to where I live in relation to where I work. It allows me to claim I will move with really only ONE consideration...where do I want the kids to finish their high school education. Nothing more.
> 
> Build a nuke plant in my back yard. I move to the other side of the school district, or county, if I decide it is important to keep the kids in the same school. Or maybe I move from the Colorado suburbs to a mountain town in West Virginia. Or Tennessee. My job travels with me, so where I live is purely personal choice. I choose here. Build a nuke plant next door, and maybe I land in Juneau. Or Key West. Once all the kids are done with high school, I look forward to taking advantage of just this sort of flexibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No diseases NEED to be invented here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then someone should tell them to stop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Environmental noise is a known nuisance and can affect health.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no doubt. But "can affect" is quite different than "is". Having to invent new diseases to garner sympathy is a tip off that the standard NIMBY victim routine certainly might be coming into play.
Click to expand...


So I made the mistake of ASSUMING I would know your personal damages if a evil power plant or freeway appeared in YOUR backyard.. Stupid me.. 

Ever occur to you that YOUR ASSESSMENT of the damages to the folks in Falmouth just MIGHT be similiarly flawed?     Nawwwwwwwww..


----------



## RGR

flacaltenn said:


> So I made the mistake of ASSUMING I would know your personal damages if a evil power plant or freeway appeared in YOUR backyard.. Stupid me..



Not really. You just went with the odds. Most people probably would take a financial hit if someone dropped a nuke plant next door. Most people are probably tied to a job at a single physical location. Most people live where they live and like it and don't want to move.

And most people watch reality TV, don't pay attention to the windmills being discussed for their neighborhood, don't do their due diligence and would rather whine like children that it is someone else's fault when things they don't like happen.

I don't do those things either.



			
				flacalten said:
			
		

> Ever occur to you that YOUR ASSESSMENT of the damages to the folks in Falmouth just MIGHT be similiarly flawed?     Nawwwwwwwww..



Absolutely. 15 years as a scientist dealing with the uncertainty in complex systems means not only do I know that my assessment might be flawed, but should I be asked I might even provide the probability distribution to quantify it.


----------

