# *There *Is*, And *Never *, Was A Palestine*



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2011)

Sorry bout that,



1. Now look we all know where the arabs in Israel came from, lets be men.
2. They came from Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and surrounding *hell holes*.
3. We know this, lets stop *all* the bullshit.
4. There was never a *home land* for arabs in Israel.
5. Never a working government, never a form of currency, never a heritage.
6. Just a bunch of arabs showed up to stake claims on Israel, when the Jews came back home in 1948.
7. This too shall pass, not to worry people of Israel.
8. Link:Hamas: 'Resistance' against Israel is only option left for Palestinians - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


""The Palestinian people do not beg the world for a state, and the state can't be created through decisions and initiatives," Haniyeh said. "States liberate their land first and then the political body can be established." 



9. And why don't they, because they know Israel will end up running them into the seas.
10. Some stupid cleric in Iran thinks he has something to do with Israel, bring it Iran, and watch your whole country go up in fucking smoke you stupid bastards!



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## pgm (Oct 2, 2011)

There was a Palestinian mandate. It was confirmed on July 24, 1922 and came into effect on September 26, 1923.

There was no Palestine under Ottoman rule. The people who came to identify themselves as Palestinians were split under a few different regions (and these kept changing). Not that that mattered to the people who lived there. It's the land of their grandfather's homes.

1, 2 & 3) Some came from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt. Others descended from the people who always lived there. Genetically, they're much closer to the Jewish people than any other Arab group. Among the Arabs, they are the most similar genetically and culturally to the other Levantine Arabs (the Lebanese and Syrians to a lesser extent).
4) What does this mean? There were certainly Arabs living in Israel before and after the Jewish people started immigrating in large numbers.
5) Government, no. Currency, no. Heritage, depends what you mean. There was a cultural heritage. 
6) The Jews arrived way before 1948 and there was lots of fighting with the Arabs from the beginning. 
7) Why is this a numbered list? These aren't separate points.
8) Hamas certainly appeals to a segment of the Palestinians who are frustrated with mainstream Palestinian leadership. Creating a Palestinian state can help take away some of the more moderate Palestinians who could be tempted to support Hamas.
9) Yes, Israel would.
10) Are you talking about Khomeini?  

Take care,

Pgm


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## editec (Oct 2, 2011)

What's in a name?

A battlefield by any other name would be as bloody.


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## pgm (Oct 2, 2011)

Well, that's certainly true.


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## JStone (Oct 3, 2011)

pgm said:


> Genetically, they're much closer to the Jewish people than any other Arab group.



No.

Eminent Archaeologist and Historian, former Fulbright Scholar Eric Cline...


> The claims that modern Palestinians are descended from the ancient Jebusites are made without any supporting evidence.  Historians and archaeologists have generally concluded that most, if not all, modern Palestinians are probably more closely related to the Arabs of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan and other countries than they are to the ancient Jebusites, Canaanites or Philistines.





> What does this mean? There were certainly Arabs living in Israel before and after the Jewish people started immigrating in large numbers.



There were Arabs living in Israel....2000 years after Jews settled in Israel.  Thus, the country has been known by the Hebrew name Israel since 3000 years ago.


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## pgm (Oct 4, 2011)

Jordan, yes. Saudi Arabia, not so much.



> In a study of Israeli and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.





> One DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim suggested that at least part of the Arab Israeli and Palestinian population is descended from Levant Christians and Jews, which would collaborate with historical accounts that Levantine people "had converted [to Islam] after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century A.D." The study also discovered significant genetic mixing between these converts and incoming Arab tribes during the first millennium AD.
> 
> "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews



There's not a whole lot separating the Arabs of South Lebanon from Palestine (at least not in a way that would unite them as Palestine). Really, the most unifying thing is the displacement from Israel in 1948. Their dialect of Arabic is pretty similar to the Lebanese and, like that of the Iraqis and Syrians, is influenced by Aramaic. If one would split the Arab world into more accurate countries, the Arabian peninsula would be separate, Iraq would be separate, Egypt would be separate and Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan could be argued as one. There are definite differences between them, though, and if any one of them is a made-up country, it is Jordan, not Palestine.

Another link:
http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html







Sar being Saudi Arabia, obviously. The Druze are Arabs of Lebanon, but not Muslim. The triangle for Yemen are the Yemeni Jews. The rest seems obvious.


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 4, 2011)

Sorry bout that,



1. PGM pretty much shut the door on any debate.
2. Nice going.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## editec (Oct 4, 2011)

Oh my goodness, how many times are we going to have this silly argument?

People will simply show you example after example of the term Paletine being used over the last 2000 years or so and you will ignore it.

What's even more annoying is that the  fact that some people in antiquity called that area Palestine is entirely irrelvant to the issue of modern Israel, and the Arabs who live there now.


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## JStone (Oct 4, 2011)

editec said:


> Oh my goodness, how many times are we going to have this silly argument?
> 
> People will simply show you example after example of the term Paletine being used over the last 2000 years or so and you will ignore it.
> 
> What's even more annoying is that the  fact that some people in antiquity called that area Palestine is entirely irrelvant to the issue of modern Israel, and the Arabs who live there now.



Middle East Historian Bernard Lewis...


> The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new.  This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites.  But, Palestine was not one of them.  People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality.  But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying province of Syria
> 
> The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1948]


 
Cambridge University Press


> In Ottoman times, no political entity called Palestine existed. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War, European boundary makers began to take greater interest in defining territorial limits for Palestine. Only since the 1920s has Palestine had formally delimited boundaries, though these have remained subject to repeated change and a source of bitter dispute.
> Palestine Boundaries 1833&#8211;1947 - Cambridge Archive Editions


 
Guy Milliere, Eminent Professor of History and Political Science, Sorbonne, Paris


> No one had heard of a Palestinian people  before the mid-1960s. They did not exist. Israel under the British Mandate until Israel' s Independence in 1948 was called Palestine. All Jews who were born there until i948 had the word « Palestine » stamped on their passports. The current Palestinians are those Arabs who, for a variety of reasons, decided to leave the land during the 1947 War of Independence, when five countries &#8211; Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq &#8211; attacked the 600,000 people in the fledgling state of Israel the day after its birth, hoping to kill it in the crib.
> The War Against Israel Goes On- by Guy Millière | DRZZ.fr



Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Charles Krauthammer...


> Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store.


 
Tel Dan Stele Verifying King David Dynasty 3000 years ago
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/pos...n-Stela-and-the-Kings-of-Aram-and-Israel.aspx

Judaea Capta Coins Minted By Romans against Jews 2000 years ago 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaea_Capta_coinage

Jewish Dead Sea Scrolls 2000 years old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

Yale University Press: The Archaeology of Ancient Israel


> In this lavishly illustrated book some of Israel's foremost archaeologists present a thorough, up-to-date, and readily accessible survey of early life in the land of the Bible, from the Neolithic era (eighth millennium B.C.E.) to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. It will be a delightful and informative resource for anyone who has ever wanted to know more about the religious, scientific, or historical background of the region.
> http://yalepress.yale.edu/OtherVendors.asp?isbn=9780300059199


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## pgm (Oct 4, 2011)

Bernard Lewis is mostly correct. The defining characteristic of the "Palestinians" before they were called Palestinians was that they were the Arabs of the Holy Land. The borders weren't what they are now (the Ottomans had them as South Syria). But their connection was to the land, not to a name. 

There are a couple ideas about when a singular Palestinian identity emerged (as opposed to an Arab/Muslim identity). Some say it was in the 17th Century. A more definitive moment would be the riots of the 1830s. There is no question that the term "Palestinian" was being used in the 1910s. 

Is it comparatively new? Of course. But so is nationalism. So is the idea of self-determination. I would even go as far as to say Palestinian nationalism is newer than Zionism. But there is still a Palestinian identity. No other Arab state prioritizes the interests of the Palestinians. Not the Egyptians or Syrians, who try to use Palestinians as a political tool. Not the Jordanians, who treated the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens and were more concerned about territorial expansion into the West Bank than preserving Palestinian homes. 

Guy Milliere is completely wrong. As I explained, the term Palestinian was used to refer to the Arab people living there at the turn of the 20th Century. Second, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq did not invade until 1948, after there had been fighting for nearly a year (fighting that left the Arab population largely displaced). Finally, Jordan did not invade with any intention of snuffing out Israel. It invaded because it wanted to take the Arab Partition of Palestine and incorporate it into its own territory.

As for Krauthammer, we don't usually agree, but what he says is fairly innocuous. I would offer China as an example of 3000 years of one people, country, name, language and religion (depending on the part of China).


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## JStone (Oct 4, 2011)

pgm said:


> Bernard Lewis is mostly correct. The defining characteristic of the "Palestinians" before they were called Palestinians was that they were the Arabs of the Holy Land. The borders weren't what they are now (the Ottomans had them as South Syria). But their connection was to the land, not to a name.



There were few Arabs to be connected and the land was owned for the most part by the Turks, not the Arabs.  The few Arabs who owned land were wealthy absentee landowners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon who leased the land for cultivation



> There are a couple ideas about when a singular Palestinian identity emerged (as opposed to an Arab/Muslim identity). Some say it was in the 17th Century. A more definitive moment would be the riots of the 1830s. There is no question that the term "Palestinian" was being used in the 1910s.



Incorrect.

Historian Bernard Lewis...


> For Arabs, the term Palestine was unacceptable. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant but not abhorrent in the same way as it was to Jews. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole [of Syria]. For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point.





> At first, the country of which Palestine was a part was felt to be Syria.  In Ottoman times, that is, immediately before the coming of the British, Palestine had indeed been a part of a larger Syrian whole from which it was in no way distinguished whether by language, culture, education, administration, political allegiance, or any other significant respect. The dividing line between British-mandated Palestine and French-mandated Syria-Lebanon was an entirely new one and for the people of the area was wholly artificial. It was therefore natural that the nationalist leadership when it first appeared should think in Syrian terms and describe Palestine as southern Syria





> The Palestinian Arabs' basic sense of corporate historic identity was, at different levels, Muslim or Arab or -- for some -- Syrian; it is significant that even by the end of the Mandate in 1948, after 30 years of separate Palestinian political existence, there were virtually no books in Arabic on the history of Palestine.



American Library Association


> For more than four decades, Bernard Lewis has been one of the most respected scholars and prolific writers on the history and politics of the Middle East. In this compilation of more than 50 journal articles and essays, he displays the full range of his eloquence, knowledge, and insight regarding this pivotal and volatile region."
> http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/gener...olitics/MiddleEast/?view=usa&ci=9780195144215


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## JStone (Oct 4, 2011)

pgm said:


> But there is still a Palestinian identity.



Prior to Israeli statehood, Jews were Palestinians.



> A "Palestinian" can mean a person who is born in the geographical area known prior to 1918 as "Palestine", or a former citizen of the British Mandate territory called Palestine, or an institution related to either of these. Using this definition, both Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews were called "Palestinians".
> 
> Before the establishment of the State of Israel, the meaning of the word "Palestinian" didn't discriminate on ethnic grounds, but rather referred to anything associated with the region. The local newspaper, founded in 1932 by Gershon Agron was called The Palestine Post. In 1950, its name was changed to The Jerusalem Post.
> 
> ...


 
Palestinians identify by the Arab nation.

Palestine Charter...


> We, the Palestinian Arab people, who believe in its Arabism...
> 
> The Palestinian people firmly believe in Arab unity



How many nations identify by a word not even in their own native language? Palestine is an English word invented by the British based on the Latin Palestina which the Romans renamed the Jewish land of Judah and Palestina is based on the Hebrew word Peleshet that is in the Torah.

Are Palestinians really Roman British Orthodox Jews?


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## pgm (Oct 4, 2011)

JStone said:


> There were few Arabs to be connected and the land was owned for the most part by the Turks, not the Arabs.  The few Arabs who owned land were wealthy absentee landowners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon who leased the land for cultivation.



There were Jordanian landowners as well, but you completely miss the point. It didn't matter who owned the land; it mattered who lived on it. Are the Native Americans not Native to America because some British people owned the land?



> > There are a couple ideas about when a singular Palestinian identity emerged (as opposed to an Arab/Muslim identity). Some say it was in the 17th Century. A more definitive moment would be the riots of the 1830s. There is no question that the term "Palestinian" was being used in the 1910s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, then he's still wrong. 

First came Arab nationalism in the 19th Century, with a special place for the Palestinians because of the 1838 Arab Revolt in Palestine. Then came calls for Greater Syria. Calls for a Palestinian state started as a counter to Zionism and really cemented when the French conquered Syria. Then it gained legitimacy with the British Mandate.

I said he was wrong because he said there was no identity as Palestinian before 1968. I can tell you the Filastani was published in 1911. If you doubt further, Thawr ibn Yazid, who lived in the 7th Century once said, "The most holy spot on earth is Syria; the most holy spot in Syria is Palestine; the most holy spot in Palestine is Jerusalem ; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the Mountain; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the place of worship , and the most holy spot in the place of worship is the Dome."

Use of the term Palestine predates the Romans' use. In 340 BC, Aristotle said, "Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them." Herodotus also referred to a district in Syria called Palestine.




JStone said:


> How many nations identify by a word not even in their own native language? Palestine is an English word invented by the British based on the Latin Palestina which the Romans renamed the Jewish land of Judah and Palestina is based on the Hebrew word Peleshet that is in the Torah.
> 
> Are Palestinians really Roman British Orthodox Jews?



The Arabs took the names for the places from the Byzantines. They don't say Palestinian, but Filastani (there is no letter "P" in Arabic). It is the Arabic word for people of Palestine. The word Palestine could be based off of the Hebrew Paleshet, or the Egyptian Peleset, or the Asyrian Palashtu, or the Greek Palaistinê.

As for nations that use words that are not from their own native language, I can think of a few. The Japanese use Nihon-jin, which is not a native Japanese word (it's a Chinese-based word). Even the word they used before Nihon, Wa, was likely Chinese. The Koreans (Han-guk-in) use a Chinese-based word. Those from countries with European borders often use non-native words--Syrian is not Arabic, nor is Lebanon or Jordan. I'd include Egypt as an example, but they don't call themselves Egypt. Closer to home, Canada is an Iroquois word.



JStone said:


> Palestinians identify by the Arab nation.
> 
> Palestine Charter...
> 
> ...


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## JStone (Oct 4, 2011)

pgm said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > > Well, then he's still wrong.
> ...


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## pgm (Oct 4, 2011)

Thank you for your appeals to authority.

*First quote:*

On the one hand he's right. The people would have been Arabs first, Syrians second and the locality third. But by the 20th Century, things had changed a lot. By 1911, Palestinian was used to distinguish the Arab-speaking people of Palestine. If he says the term did not exist before that, he's just wrong.

As for the political distinction coming from the British Mandate, that is also correct. But that is hardly fair. It was Ottoman before it fell under the British Mandate. Just because the Ottomans did not feel Palestine was its own state, doesn't mean that the area was not called Palestine.

*The Cambridge quote:*

Again with requiring a political entity called Palestine. How Westphalian. These Western concepts hardly apply to Southwest Asia before the 19th Century at the earliest (and it really doesn't start till WWI). The borders were controversial for two reasons. Any arbitrary borders are controversial and it was made worse because the British were trying to install two princes from the Arabian peninsula as the rulers of Jordan and Syria (the French nixed the Syria idea). The British couldn't take too much land from its allies in WWI, but didn't want to carve too much out of Palestine because of local and Jewish resistance to the idea.

*On the Romans:*

They clearly did not invent the term because it was used by Herodotus. He uses the term in The Histories. Even Jewish historian Josephus was aware of this:

"Nor, indeed, was Herodotus of Halicarnassus unaquainted with our nation, but mentions it after a way of his own... This, therefore, is what Herodotus says, that "the Syrians that are in Palestine are circumcised". But there are no inhabitants of Palestine that are circumcised excepting the Jews; and, therefore, it must be his knowledge of them that enabled him to speak so much concerning them."

(Here's what Herodotus said on circumcision:
"the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times. The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves confess that they learnt the custom of the Egyptians.... Now these are the only nations who use circumcision.")

Also from Josephus:
 "...these Antiquities contain what hath been delivered down to us from the original creation of man, until the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, as to what hath befallen us Jews, as well is Egypt as in Syria, and in Palestine"

These were both prior to the bar Kokhba revolt. Hadrian made Judea part of a political term called Syria Palestine. Before that, there were many terms (with Judea being the official province name).

And hey, look. The rest of the quotes don't contradict me in the slightest.


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## JStone (Oct 4, 2011)

pgm said:


> They clearly did not invent the term because it was used by Herodotus. He uses the term in The Histories. Even Jewish historian Josephus was aware of this:
> 
> "Nor, indeed, was Herodotus of Halicarnassus unaquainted with our nation, but mentions it after a way of his own... This, therefore, is what Herodotus says, that "the Syrians that are in Palestine are circumcised". But there are no inhabitants of Palestine that are circumcised excepting the Jews; and, therefore, it must be his knowledge of them that enabled him to speak so much concerning them."



I just told you, Herodotus did not use Palestine.  Herodutus's translators used Palestine.  The Greeks called the land "Judaea" for the Hebrew "Judah" 

Herodotus's first manuscripts appeared 1300 years after he died.  His translators used Palestine.

Herodotus was European, not indigenous to the region.  The Jews called the land Israel and Judah 

Palestine does not appear once in the Hebrew Bible nor Christian Bible.  Palestine does not appear in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint

Romans invented Palestine: Read, learn http://www.usmessageboard.com/4229012-post14.html


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## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

Herodotus used the word "Palaistinê." This is not meant to prove that the land was called Palestine by the people living there. It wasn't. It was Judea. It was to prove that the geographical region was often known by Palestine by the Greeks, among others. 

The Philistines were more famous in Greece than the Jews simply because they traded with the Greeks. So, the Greeks called the area Palestine, which was a region of Syria (which contained most of Southwest Asia).

Herodotus never traveled to many of the places he talked about. Much of his work is based on hearsay and third person accounts. It should definitely be taken with a grain of salt. But the term "Palestine" was used before Hadrian by Josephus and many others.


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## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> Herodotus used the word "Palaistinê." This is not meant to prove that the land was called Palestine by the people living there. It wasn't. It was Judea. It was to prove that the geographical region was often known by Palestine by the Greeks, among others.
> 
> The Philistines were more famous in Greece than the Jews simply because they traded with the Greeks. So, the Greeks called the area Palestine, which was a region of Syria (which contained most of Southwest Asia).
> 
> Herodotus never traveled to many of the places he talked about. Much of his work is based on hearsay and third person accounts. It should definitely be taken with a grain of salt. But the term "Palestine" was used before Hadrian by Josephus and many others.



Herodotus did not use Palestine or Palaistine.  His translators used Palestine.

The Greeks coined "Judaea" for the Hebrew name of the land "Judah," from which Jew is derived.  The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible does not use Palestine.

The Hebrew Bible does not use Palestine.  The Christian Bible does not use Palestine.

No ancient documents or archaeological artifacts use Palestine.

The Persians used Yehud, Aramaic for Judah.

The Romans used Judaea.

Earlier, the ancient Egyptians used Israel.  The ancient Moabites used Israel.

Most importantly, the Hebrews, who owned the land, called the land Israel and Judah, not Palestine.

Historian Bernard Lewis...


> The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them.  Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan.  After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel"  After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel


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## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

I don't feel like going over this because you've provided no evidence that Herodotus's translators were the ones who called the land Palestine. There is certainly evidence that he did not call it Judeah (as attested by Josephus). So, I will simply say this: The Greek Septuagint was a much later creation that Herodotus and since it was a translation of the Bible, used the Jewish terms. The Kingdoms were Judea and Israel. Palestine was merely a vague geographic concept.

Aristotle also used the term Palestine.

I will simply direct you to a damn list of the word being used. Most of these are post Hadrian, but many are not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_name_Palestine


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## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> I don't feel like going over this because you've provided no evidence that Herodotus's translators were the ones who called the land Palestine. There is certainly evidence that he did not call it Judeah (as attested by Josephus). So, I will simply say this: The Greek Septuagint was a much later creation that Herodotus and since it was a translation of the Bible, used the Jewish terms. The Kingdoms were Judea and Israel. Palestine was merely a vague geographic concept.
> 
> Aristotle also used the term Palestine.
> 
> ...



Wikipedia is not an authoritative source, which explains your ignorance of the subject matter. 

Where is Palestine in the Hebrew Bible? Where is Palestine in the Christian Bible? Where is Palestine in the Quran?

Where is Palestine in any archaeological artifacts?

Nowhere. Nowhere. Nowhere. Nowhere.

You lost the debate 20 posts ago


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## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

I don't even know what this debate is. You keep moving the goalposts. Wikipedia is not an authoritative source, it is a convenient reference.

Anyway, you asked where Palestine is in the Heberew Bible:
Isaiah 14:29 - Don't rejoice, O Peleshet, all of you, because the rod that struck you is broken; for out of the serpent's root shall come forth an adder, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
Psalm 108:9 - Mo'av is my wash pot. I will toss my sandal on Edom. I will shout over Peleshet."
Exodus 15:14 - The peoples have heard. They tremble. Pangs have taken hold on the inhabitants of Peleshet.
Joel 3:4 - "Yes, and what are you to me, Tzor, and Tzidon, And all the regions of Peleshet? Will you repay me? And if you repay me, I will swiftly and speedily return your repayment on your own head.

The Romans created the state of Syria Palestinia as an insult the Jews, but they didn't invent the name out of whole cloth. 

Anyway, I'm going to regret posting this because it won't convince you of a damn thing. Plus, you'll probably repost a fucking Bernard Lewis quote.


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## editec (Oct 5, 2011)

Back when the OTTOMANs owned most of the land in Palestine, and the Arabs who lived there (remember that arabs are not Turkics!) was probably when those Arabs (mostly rentors of the land owed by wealth turks) started thinking of themselves as uniquely Palestinians.

Of course a century ago, they were referring to themselves as inhabitants of _a place_ (_not a nation_) called Palestine.

But this constant debate about whether the name Palestine is new, is silly.

History is replete with references to that place called Palestine.

It didn't actually refer to Israel specifically, but included areas in Lebanon, and likely Syria, too.

It was a REGION, not a nation.

The Romans thought of it that way.


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## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

editec said:


> Back when the OTTOMANs owned most of the land in Palestine, and the Arabs who lived there (remember that arabs are not Turkics!) was probably when those Arabs (mostly rentors of the land owed by wealth turks) started thinking of themselves as uniquely Palestinians.
> 
> Of course a century ago, they were referring to themselves as inhabitants of _a place_ (_not a nation_) called Palestine.
> 
> ...



The Romans, foreign occupiers, thought of the land as Judaea, Latin for the Hebrew Judah, from which Jew is derived.
Judaea Capta coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The name of the land was Israel and Judah, not Palestine.

Historian Bernard Lewis...


> The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them. Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan. After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel" After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel



Palestine never existed during the Ottoman Empire.

Cambridge University Press


> In Ottoman times, no political entity called Palestine existed. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War, European boundary makers began to take greater interest in defining territorial limits for Palestine. Only since the 1920s has Palestine had formally delimited boundaries, though these have remained subject to repeated change and a source of bitter dispute.
> Palestine Boundaries 18331947 - Cambridge Archive Editions



Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire...


> Palestine did not exist in the geographical imagination of the Ottomans...[Before modern Israel], Jews referred to the territory as Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel.  Throughout the Ottoman period, pilgrims and clergy from both religious traditions visited what they considered the "Holy Land" following a route from the port of Jaffa to Jerusalem.



Palestinians are a recent invention.

Bernard Lewis...


> The Palestinian Arabs' basic sense of corporate historic identity was, at different levels, Muslim or Arab or -- for some -- Syrian; it is significant that even by the end of the Mandate in 1948, after 30 years of separate Palestinian political existence, there were virtually no books in Arabic on the history of Palestine.


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## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

editec said:


> History is replete with references to that place called Palestine.



References to Palestine in Hebrew Bible: Zero 

References to Palestine in Christian Bible: Zero 

References to *Israel* in Bible: 2000 times 

References to Palestine in Quran: Zero 

References to Palestine in Zoroastrian Avesta: Zero 

References to Palestine in the Septuagint, Greek translation of Hebrew Bible: Zero 

References to Palestine in ancient documents: Zero 

References to Palestine in archaeological artifacts: Zero 

Middle East Historian Bernard Lewis... 


> The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new.  This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites.  But, Palestine was not one of them.  People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality.  But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying province of Syria
> 
> The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1948]


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## Katzndogz (Oct 5, 2011)

The arabs believe in the existence of Palestine the way mexicans belive in the existence of Aztlan.  Neither ever existed.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

JStone said:


> References to Palestine in Hebrew Bible: Zero



You're off by about 250.



> References to Palestine in ancient documents: Zero



And just wrong here.

Wait, what am I doing? There's no point of trying to convince you otherwise. The only way you have a point is if you mean that the word "Palestine" was used and spelled this way. In that case, you'd be right. But the Palestinians don't use the word Palestine, they use Filastin.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > References to Palestine in Hebrew Bible: Zero
> ...



References to Palestine in Bible: Zero.

References to Israel in Bible: 2000

Exodus 34:27: Then the LORD said to Moses, &#8220;Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.&#8221; 




> References to Palestine in ancient documents: Zero





> And just wrong here.



References to Palestine in ancient documents: Zero.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

Argumentum ad nauseam.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> Argumentum ad nauseam.



Translation: You brought a pocket knife to a gun fight and lost.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

The Palestinians call themselves Filistini in Arabic. Is there no mention of Philistine in the Bible? &#1508;&#1500;&#1513;&#1514; (Paleshet) is mentioned over 250 times in the Bible and translated as either Philistine or Palestine. So, it is mentioned in the Bible and you're just wrong. 

Here, go look BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: philis*

Your repetition proves you have no argument or evidence.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

And to drive the point in further:

Genesis 10:14 HNV/NIV - Patrusim, Kasluchim (which the Pelishtim descended from), and Kaftorim.

Genesis 21:32 "So they made a covenant at Beer-Sheva. Avimelekh rose up with Pikhol,..." HNV - Online Bible Study

Genesis 21:34 HNV/NIV - Avraham sojourned in the land of the Pelishtim many days.

Isaiah 14:29-31 HNV/NIV - Don't rejoice, O Peleshet, all of you, because the rod that struck you is broken; for out of the serpent's root shall come forth an adder, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/passage.aspx?q=Joel+3:4&t=hnv&t2=niv


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 5, 2011)

Sorry bout that,



1. Arabs have hitched their wagon to a term brought on by some gentiles.
2. The Romans.
3. And they think that *no one* will notice.
4. How fucking lame is that?



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> And to drive the point in further:
> 
> Genesis 10:14 HNV/NIV - Patrusim, Kasluchim (which the Pelishtim descended from), and Kaftorim.
> 
> ...



You just proved my point: Palestine never appears in the Bible.  

The Bible references the Hebrew "Peleshet" that translates to Philistia, land of the Philistines.  The Philistines were Greek, not Arab or Palestinian.

Now, even you know.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

Palestine translates to Philistia, land of the Philistines. Now you know.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> The Palestinians call themselves Filistini in Arabic.



LOL, there is no letter "p" in Arabic.  Filastin is just the Arabic pronunciation of Palestine.

Palestine is an English word.   



> Is there no mention of Philistine in the Bible? &#1508;&#1500;&#1513;&#1514; (Paleshet) is mentioned over 250 times in the Bible and translated as either Philistine or Palestine. So, it is mentioned in the Bible and you're just wrong.



The Philistines were Greek, from the Aegean and Mediterranean Seas, thus, known as the Sea Peoples.

The Palestinians are Arabs from the Arabian desert 

Every Bible translates Peleshet as "Philistia," land of the Philistines, NOT Palestine.  Palestine never appears in the Bible 

You're so uneducated, it's not even funny, but, I still laugh at you 

Eminent Archaeologist and Historian, former Fulbright Scholar Eric Cline...


> The claims that modern Palestinians are descended from the ancient Jebusites are madewithout any supporting evidence.  Historians and archaeologists have generally concluded that most, if not all, modern Palestinians are probably more closely related to the Arabs of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan and other countries than they are to the ancient Jebusites, Canaanites or Philistines.


 
Rashid Khalidi, professor of Middle East history and director of the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago and advisor to various Arab groups...


> There is a relatively recent tradition which argues that Palestinian nationalism has deep historical roots.  As with other national movements, extreme advocates of this view anachronistically read back into the history of Palestine over the past few centuries a nationalist consciousness and identity that are in fact relatively modern.  Among the manifestations of this outlook are a predilection for seeing in peoples such as the Canaanites, Jebusites and Philistines the lineal ancestors of the modern Palestinians.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

The word Palestine comes from the Latin Palaestina, which comes from the Greek &#928;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#943;&#957;&#951; (Palestini), which is what the Greeks called Philistine. The Arabic Filastin comes from the Byzantine's name for the region that they took when the Arabs conquered it. They used the local name, just like they did in Syria.

The Palestinians are Arab in culture and language, but genetically, they're a mixed bag and for the most part they are not descended from people from Arabia. There just weren't enough conquerors.

I thought of another people who call themselves by a name not native to their language. The Americans.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> The word Palestine comes from the Latin Palaestina, which comes from the Greek &#928;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#943;&#957;&#951; (Palestini), which is what the Greeks called Philistine. The Arabic Filastin comes from the Byzantine's name for the region that they took when the Arabs conquered it. They used the local name, just like they did in Syria.



The Romans called Israel "Judaea" for the Hebrew Judah that dates back 3000 years. Jew derives from Judah.

The Judaea Capta coins minted by the Romans: Judaea Capta coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Romans renamed Judaea/Judah "Palestina" in retribution for the Jewish rebellions.  The Romans were foreign occupiers.  The Jews called their land Israel 500 years before Rome and Romans even existed.

You're not the brightest bulb.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> The Palestinians are Arab in culture and language, but genetically, they're a mixed bag and for the most part they are not descended from people from Arabia. There just weren't enough conquerors.



You just made that up 

Eminent Archaeologist and Historian, former Fulbright Scholar Eric Cline...


> The claims that modern Palestinians are descended from the ancient Jebusites are madewithout any supporting evidence.  Historians and archaeologists have generally concluded that most, if not all, modern Palestinians are probably more closely related to the Arabs of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan and other countries than they are to the ancient Jebusites, Canaanites or Philistines.


 
Rashid Khalidi, professor of Middle East history and director of the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago and advisor to various Arab groups...


> There is a relatively recent tradition which argues that Palestinian nationalism has deep historical roots.  As with other national movements, extreme advocates of this view anachronistically read back into the history of Palestine over the past few centuries a nationalist consciousness and identity that are in fact relatively modern.  Among the manifestations of this outlook are a predilection for seeing in peoples such as the Canaanites, Jebusites and Philistines the lineal ancestors of the modern Palestinians.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

JStone said:


> pgm said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinians are Arab in culture and language, but genetically, they're a mixed bag and for the most part they are not descended from people from Arabia. There just weren't enough conquerors.
> ...



Your appeals to authority not withstanding, I believe I addressed this already in my 2nd post.

I also want to address something from another thread:



> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > pgm said:
> ...



Again, how can something be the homeland if they have never been there? Is my homeland Italy? 

What about the Jewish Arabs? Are they from Arabia? The Christian ones?

"Arab" is a socio-lingual term the way it is used in the 21st Century. There is not one nation that stretches from Morocco to Yemen.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > pgm said:
> ...



Repeated for the mentally challenged...

Eminent Archaeologist and Historian, former Fulbright Scholar Eric Cline...


> The claims that modern Palestinians are descended from the ancient Jebusites are madewithout any supporting evidence.  Historians and archaeologists have generally concluded that most, if not all, modern Palestinians are probably more closely related to the Arabs of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan and other countries than they are to the ancient Jebusites, Canaanites or Philistines.


 
Dr. Eric H. Cline, a former Fulbright scholar, is an award-winning author, teacher, and advisor with degrees in Classical Archaeology, Near Eastern Archaeology, and Ancient History from Dartmouth College (1982), Yale University (1984), and the University of Pennsylvania (1991) respectively. He currently serves as Chair of the department, with a joint appointment in the Anthropology department and additional courtesy appointments in the History department and the Judaic Studies Program. He is also the advisor for the undergraduate majors in Archaeology and, for his efforts on their behalf, was awarded the GWU 2006 Award for Excellence in Undergraduate Departmental Advising.

Prior to his arrival at The George Washington University in September 2000, Dr. Cline taught at Stanford, Xavier, the University of Cincinnati, and CSU Fresno. Nominated several times for teaching awards, he received the Morton Bender Award for Excellence in Undergraduate Teaching at The George Washington University in 2004 and the Archaeological Institute of Americas National Excellence in Undergraduate Teaching Award for 2005. He currently teaches a wide variety of courses, including History of Ancient Greece, History of Rome, History of Egypt and the Ancient Near East, History of Ancient Israel, Introduction to Archaeology, Archaeology of Israel and Neighboring Lands, Art and Archaeology of the Aegean Bronze Age, the Rise of Old World Cities and States, Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and various smaller Honors and Freshmen Seminars on topics such as History and Homer, Troy and the Trojan War, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Archaeology, Politics, and Nationalism.

Dr. Clines primary fields of study are the military history of the Mediterranean world from antiquity to present and the international connections between Greece, Egypt, and the Near East during the Late Bronze Age (1700-1100 BCE). He is an experienced field archaeologist, with 28 seasons of excavation and survey to his credit since 1980. He has worked in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Cyprus, Greece, Crete, and the United States, including eight seasons at the site of Megiddo (biblical Armageddon) in Israel, where he is currently the Associate Director (USA). He is also Co-Director of the new series of archaeological excavations at the site of Tel Kabri, also located in Israel. 

A prolific researcher and author with ten books and nearly 100 articles to his credit, Dr. Cline is perhaps best known for his book, The Battles of Armageddon: Megiddo and the Jezreel Valley from the Bronze Age to the Nuclear Age (Ann Arbor 2000; paperback 2002), which received the 2001 Biblical Archaeology Society (BAS) Publication Award for Best Popular Book on Archaeology, was a Main Selection of the Natural Science Book Club, sold out its first printing in less than four months, and has now been translated and published into Croatian (2005). The subsequent book, entitled Jerusalem Besieged: From Ancient Canaan to Modern Israel, was published by the University of Michigan Press in October 2004 (paperback 2005). It was a Main Selection of the Discovery Channel Book Club in November 2004, was featured as a USA Today 'Books for Your Brain' Selection in December 2004, and was selected by the AAUP for Public and Secondary School Libraries in June 2005. His next book, entitled From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible, was published by the National Geographic Society in June 2007, selling out its first print run even before the official release date. It was subsequently released in paperback in June 2008 and received the 2009 Biblical Archaeology Society (BAS) Publication Award for Best Popular Book on Archaeology. His most recent books are Biblical Archaeology: A Very Short Introduction, published by Oxford University Press in October 2009, and an edited volume, entitled The Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age Aegean, published by Oxford University Press in May 2010.

He is also the author of Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: International Trade and the Late Bronze Age Aegean (Oxford 1994, republished 2009) and the co-editor of Amenhotep III: Perspectives on his Reign (Ann Arbor 1998; paperback 2001); The Aegean and the Orient in the Second Millennium BC (Liège 1998); and Thutmose III: A New Biography (Ann Arbor 2006), and is the co-author (with Jill Rubalcaba) of a book for young adults entitled The Ancient Egyptian World, published by Oxford University Press (New York 2005). He is currently writing and/or editing several additional books, including Ramesses III: The Life and Times of Egypt's Last Hero (University of Michigan Press). In addition, he has recorded three courses on CD-ROM and cassette for Modern Scholar/Recorded Books: A History of Ancient Israel: From the Patriarchs Through the Romans (March 2007), A History of Ancient Greece: From the Bronze Age through the Hellenistic Age (March 2007), and Archaeology and the Iliad: The Trojan War in Homer and History (January 2006). 

Dr. Cline has presented more than 200 scholarly and public lectures and presentations on his work over the past decade, including at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and the Skirball Museum in Los Angeles. His research has been featured in the Washington Post, the New York Times, US News & World Report, USA Today, National Geographic News, CNN, the London Daily Telegraph, the London Mirror, the Brisbane Courier-Mail, the Cincinnati Enquirer, the Cincinnati Post, and the Associated Press, with all of those articles subsequently reproduced in numerous other periodicals within the United States and abroad. His books have been reviewed in the Times Literary Supplement, the Times Higher Education Supplement, the Jerusalem Post, the Cincinnati Enquirer, the History News Network, Jewish Book World, and many professional journals, while his publications overall have been cited over 2,100 times in more than 400 scholarly books and articles since 1987.

Dr. Cline has been interviewed by syndicated national and international television and radio hosts including Robin Roberts and George Stephanopoulos on ABC's "Good Morning America," Bill Hemmer and Martha MacCallum on Fox New Channel's "America's Newsroom," Fergus Nicoll on the BBC World Service/The World Today, Kojo Nnamdi on NPRs Public Interest show, Michael Dresser on The Michael Dresser show, and Richard Sheehe on WRGW. His documentary television appearances to date include featured roles as an expert in Joshua and the Walls of Jericho (Discovery Channel, 2003), Revelation: The End of the World? (Discovery Channel, 2004), The Truth of Troy (BBC2, 2004), Beyond the Movie: Conquering Troy (National Geographic Channel, 2004), Secrets of the Aegean Apocalypse/Mystery of the Sea Peoples (History Channel, 2004), Countdown to Armageddon (History Channel, 2004), Is It Real: Atlantis (National Geographic Channel, 2006), Jerusalem: Center of the World (WETA/PBS, 2009), and Biblical Plagues (National Geographic Channel, 2010). He has also both appeared in, and served as a consultant for, numerous shows in the National Geographic Channels Science of the Bible series, including Exodus Revealed, Lost Cities, Ark of the Covenant, Secrets of Revelation, The Search for Noahs Ark, Lost Kings of the Bible (David and Solomon), and The Dead Sea Scrolls (National Geographic Channel, March 2006  April 2007).

In addition to his other responsibilities, Dr. Cline serves the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR) as an elected member of the Board of Trustees, and has previously served as Vice-President and member of the Executive Committee, the Nominating Committee, and the Committee on Archaeology Policy; Chair of the Annual Meetings and Program Committee (CAMP), a member of the Personnel Committee and the Program Committee, and an ex-officio member of the Executive, Program, Outreach, Lectures, Honors/Awards, Regional Societies, Implementation and Strategic Planning, Development, and Unprovenanced Texts Committees. He has also served as an elected Society Trustee of the Archaeological Institute of America (AIA) and currently serves on the Excellence in Undergraduate Teaching Award Selection Committee for the AIA. 

GW | Eric H. Cline


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

Address my genetic studies. Don't keep posting your historian. That's not evidence, that's an appeal to authority. I'm sure he has evidence, so you need to go dig those up or you have no case.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> Address my genetic studies. Don't keep posting your historian. That's not evidence, that's an appeal to authority. I'm sure he has evidence, so you need to go dig those up or you have no case.



You're stuck on stupid. 

Palestinians are merely Arabs from Arabia.

Rashid Khalidi, professor of Middle East history and director of the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago and advisor to various Arab groups...


> There is a relatively recent tradition which argues that Palestinian nationalism has deep historical roots.  As with other national movements, extreme advocates of this view anachronistically read back into the history of Palestine over the past few centuries a nationalist consciousness and identity that are in fact relatively modern.  Among the manifestations of this outlook are a predilection for seeing in peoples such as the Canaanites, Jebusites and Philistines the lineal ancestors of the modern Palestinians.


 
Historian Bernard Lewis


> By Arabs bypassing the Biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise and possession put forward by the Jews.  This line of argument isaccompanied by the common practice in Arab countries, in textbook, museums and exhibitions of minimizing the Jewish role in ancient history or, more frequently, presenting it in very negative terms.
> 
> In terms of scholarship as distinct from politics, there is no evidence whatsoever for the assertion that the Canaanites were Arabs.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

I'll leave you to fight your windmills.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> I'll leave you to fight your windmills.



Translation: You brought a pen knife to a gun fight and lost.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 5, 2011)

Sorry bout that,






JStone said:


> pgm said:
> 
> 
> > I'll leave you to fight your windmills.
> ...






1. Translation: Check and Mate!




Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

*sigh*

There's no point for me to post evidence, argument and reasons if they're not addressed. All I get in return are logical fallacies. Go back to my original post and address what I said. 

You can continue your vendetta against the Palestinian Arabs and you can continue punching strawmen. If you have no intention to have a discussion or even respond to my actual points, why should I respond?


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> *sigh*
> 
> There's no point for me to post evidence, argument and reasons if they're not addressed. All I get in return are logical fallacies. Go back to my original post and address what I said.
> 
> You can continue your vendetta against the Palestinian Arabs and you can continue punching strawmen. If you have no intention to have a discussion or even respond to my actual points, why should I respond?



You have nothing.  

You lied that Palestine appears in the Bible when Palestine is completely absent from the Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible and even the Quran, Zoroastrian Avesta and the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.  

You lied that the Hebrew "Peleshet" translates to Palestine when Peleshet in every Bible translates to Philistia, land of the Philistines who were not Palestinians. Psalm 60:8 Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I toss my sandal; over Philistia I shout in triumph."

It's clear you know less than zero about the subject matter and resort to lying, which is a waste of everyones' time.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

I'm not the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Peleshet, Palestine and Philistine referred to the same place. Do you think the Romans invented the term Paleestina out of whole cloth, or do you believe they applied a term that referred to the land of the Philistines as an insult to the Jews?

Did the modern Palestinians name themselves after the Philistines? Of course not. They took the term Palestine from the Byzantines and acquired the identity of "Palestinian" the same way the Syrians and Jordanians acquired their own names, by naming themselves after the local name for the place. 

Do you dispute any of this? If so, where? I don't believe I'm lying or misinformed, so I would really like you to answer that question.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> I'm not the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.
> 
> Peleshet, Palestine and Philistine referred to the same place. Do you think the Romans invented the term Paleestina out of whole cloth, or do you believe they applied a term that referred to the land of the Philistines as an insult to the Jews?



You're stuck on stupid.

The Hebrew "Peleshet" translates to Philistia, not Palestine.  Philistia refers to five locations in the southwestern part of Israel where the Philistines settled from Greece.  

The Palestinians are Arabs from Arabia.

Palestine does not appear in the Bible.  Every version of the Bible translates Peleshet to Philistia Psalm 60:8 Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I toss my sandal; over Philistia I shout in triumph."

You got caught in a lie.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> Did the modern Palestinians name themselves after the Philistines? Of course not. They took the term Palestine from the Byzantines and acquired the identity of "Palestinian" the same way the Syrians and Jordanians acquired their own names, by naming themselves after the local name for the place.



You're still stuck on stupid. 

The Romans who invented "Palestina" FIRST called the land Judaea for the Hebrew Judah, the historical Jewish land from which "Jew" is derived.

The Romans minted Judaea Capta coins Judaea Capta coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Romans were foreign occupiers from Italy and Jews lived in and ruled in Israel and Judah 500 years before Rome and Romans even existed and 1000 years before they occupied Israel.

Middle East Historian Bernard Lewis...


> The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them. Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan. After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel" After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel


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## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

JStone said:


> You're still stuck on stupid.
> 
> The Romans who invented "Palestina" FIRST called the land Judaea for the Hebrew Judah, the historical Jewish land from which "Jew" is derived.



I agree. The Romans called the land Judaea. I'm talking about after the Hadrian revolt.

So, this site is lying too?

Origin of the Name Palestine | Palestine Facts



> From the fifth century BC, following the historian Herodotus, Greeks called the eastern coast of the Mediterranean &#8220;the Philistine Syria&#8221; using the Greek language form of the name. In AD 135, after putting down the Bar Kochba revolt, the second major Jewish revolt against Rome, the Emperor Hadrian wanted to blot out the name of the Roman &#8220;Provincia Judaea&#8221; and so renamed it &#8220;Provincia Syria Palaestina&#8221;, the Latin version of the Greek name and the first use of the name as an administrative unit. The name &#8220;Provincia Syria Palaestina&#8221; was later shortened to Palaestina, from which the modern, anglicized &#8220;Palestine&#8221; is derived.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > You're still stuck on stupid.
> ...


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

JStone said:


> You never mentioned the Romans called the land Judaea until I posted it.



I never disputed it either. It's tangential to the issue. The Romans called the land Judaea. That was the official name. 

They also used the name Palaestina, both before and after Hadrian. It was a term applied to a geographic area.



> Herodotus was from Greece.  Hadrian was from Italy.
> 
> The Jews were and are from Israel.  Their Bible does not contain "Palestine"



Their Bible contains Philistine. Philistine translated into Latin (via Greek) is Palaestina. That was my only point. The Arabs took the term from the Byzantines.

Once you realize this actually supports your point instead of undermining it, we can move on from this silly discussion about etymology.


----------



## JStone (Oct 5, 2011)

pgm said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > You never mentioned the Romans called the land Judaea until I posted it.
> ...



You lie, again, Pinocchio.

The Hebrew Bible references Peleshet that translates into Philistia, not Palaestina.

Read, learn: Psalm 60:8 Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I toss my sandal; over Philistia I shout in triumph."

The Romans invented Palestina, but, the Romans were foreign occupiers from Italy and Jews lived in and ruled in Israel 500 years before Rome and Romans existed and 1000 years before the Roman occupation.

Palestine does not appear in the Jews' Bible, nor the Christian Bible nor the Quran nor the Zoroastrian Avesta nor the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.


----------



## pgm (Oct 5, 2011)

JStone said:


> The Hebrew Bible references Peleshet that translates into Philistia, not Palaestina.



How do you say Philistia in Greek? How do you say it in Latin?



> The Romans invented Palestina, but, the Romans were foreign occupiers from Italy and Jews lived in and ruled in Israel 500 years before Rome and Romans existed and 1000 years before the Roman occupation.



They invented the _political entity_ of Palaestina. They didn't invent the term.



> Palestine does not appear in the Jews' Bible, nor the Christian Bible nor the Quran nor the Zoroastrian Avesta nor the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.



No, but it does appear in the collections of Hadith. It does appear in 9th Century tax records. It appears in a letter from an 11th Century Rabbi. 

So, I ask you once more. How do you say Philistine in Ancient Greek, Late Greek, Latin and Arabic?

Ancient Egyptian: Plst
Assyrian: Palastu
Hebrew: &#1508;&#1456;&#1468;&#1500;&#1460;&#1513;&#1456;&#1473;&#1514;&#1460;&#1468;&#1497;&#1501;** Peleset or Pli&#353;tim or Pleshet
Greek: &#928;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#943;&#957;&#951;, Palestini and Phylistiim.
Latin: Palaestina (Late Latin: Philistinus for the people)
Arabic: &#1601;&#1604;&#1587;&#1591;&#1610;&#1606; Filastin

They're cognates. They all referred to the same vague geographic region, which is the Ancient Land of Canaan.

Do you think this site is lying too? http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php
Read through it. I bet you mostly agree with its contents. 

Now, at this point, you can go back and continue to say the Romans invented the term, or you can acknowledge that it predates the Romans and has the same meaning as Philistine and instead go to the more apt point--there is zero evidence the people calling themselves Palestinians today are the same people as the Philistines. None.

But you won't do that because it would mean conceding a point. Never give your opponent anything, even if it helps your argument.


----------



## JStone (Oct 6, 2011)

pgm said:


> JStone said:
> 
> 
> > The Hebrew Bible references Peleshet that translates into Philistia, not Palaestina.
> ...



Now, you're back to stuck on stupid.

The Egyptians did not write the Hebrew Bible.  The Greeks did not write the Hebrew Bible.  The Romans did not write the Hebrew Bible.

The Hebrews wrote the Hebrew Bible.  Palestine does not appear in the Hebrew Bible nor in any of the translations of the Hebrew Bible.

The Hebrew Peleshet translates into Philistia, land of the Philistines, not Palestine. Every version of the Bible has Philistia, not Palestine Psalm 60:8 Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I toss my sandal; over Philistia I shout in triumph."


----------



## JStone (Oct 6, 2011)

pgm said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JStone (Oct 6, 2011)

pgm said:


> Now, at this point, you can go back and continue to say the Romans invented the term



Romans invented Palestine.

Historian Bernard Lewis...


> The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them. Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan. After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel" After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel


 
Bernard Lewis


> After the revolt of Bar-Kokhba in 135 CE, the Romans sent a large part of the Jewish population into captivity and exile.  Even the historic nomenclature of the Jews was to be obliterated.  Jerusalem was renamed Aelia Capitolina and the names Judea and Samaria were abolished, and, the country renamed Palestine, after the long-forgotten Philisties.


 
Biblical scholar and historian James Parkes


> In response to increased Roman oppression, the Jewish people rose again in resistance, but, the rebels were forced into the single fortress of Bethar, south-west of Jerusalem.  There they held out for two years.
> 
> With their destruction, the names Judea and Jerusalem were blotted from the Roman language.  The country was renamed Palestina, and Aelia Capitolina rose as a Roman city on the ruins of Jerusalem.


 
Historian Joseph Ward Swain, "The Ancient World"


> Once more, the Jews revolted against the Romans, this time under the leadership of a certain Bar Kokhba.  The success of the rebels was short-lived , for, of course the Roman legions were ultimately victorious.  All Jews were excluded from the province, whose name was changed from Judaea to Syria Palaestina.


 
Historian Albert Trever, "History of Ancient Civilization"


> Judaea and the Jewish Insurrections
> When the governor of Judaea was unable to stem the Jewish revolt , under the leadership of Bar Kokhba, additional troops were called to meet the crisis.  But ,only by three years of methodical siege of stronghold was the rebellion crushed in Judaea.
> 
> Hadrian assumed the title of "imperator" and the name of province was changed from Judaea to Syria Palaestina


 
Eric Cline...


> The Second Jewish Revolt against the Romans, also called the Bar Kokhba Rebellion, broke out in Judaea and lasted from 132 to 135 CE.   It has been estimated that it took as many as 80,000 Roman soldiers to suppress the Jewish revolt.  After years of successful guerilla fighting, Bar Kokhba and his followers a final stand at Bethar, a few miles from Jerusalem.  There, they were killed by the Romans.
> 
> Hadrian expelled the Jews from Jerusalem, which was renamed Aelia Capitolina, and Judaea was renamed Syria Palastina


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## pgm (Oct 6, 2011)

Actually, it appears to be a comment on the Haddith, so I apologize for my oversight.

Thawr ibn Yazid (770 AD): The most holy spot [al-quds] on earth is Syria; the most holy spot in Syria is Palestine; the most holy spot in Palestine is Jerusalem [Bayt al-maqdis]; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the Mountain; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the place of worship [al-masjid], and the most holy spot in the place of worship is the Dome."

Anyway, if you are unable or unwilling to see my point about the etymology of Palestine with any kind of intellectual honesty, I'm done. I'm curiosity will draw me back in here eventually, I just hope it'll be a while. So, here's what I'll say.

In ancient times, in the land of Canaan, there were Philistines. The Greeks, who did not know much about the Jews, called a generic region from Lebanon down to the Sinai, Palestine, after the Philistines (the Jews called the land Judea and Israel, obviously). They also called the greater region from SE Turkey, down to Egypt, over to Iraq (but not Arabia), Syria. This was named after the Assyrians. 

After the Persians conquered Asyria and in turn the Macedonians conquered the Persians, the Greeks took possession of Judea. Eventually, the Jews gained independence, but were conquered by the Romans. The Romans continued to call the region Judea, but they had other terms for it (including Palestine). After a failed 2nd Century rebellion, the Romans called the area Syria Palestina after the older Greek terms. This was not the accurate name for the people, but it became the official name.

The Roman Empire split and the Byzantines continued to call the land Palestine. When the Arabs conquered Byzantium, they kept the older Greek names. The greater region was called Syria (as it is in the Quran). The region in the province was called Filastin. Since there was no longer an official state of Israel, many of the people living there called the land Palestine as well. By the time the Ottomans controlled the Holy Land, Palestine was one of the names used by the people. The English also start calling the land Palestine. After WWI, for the first time since the Romans expelled the Jews, they officially named the land Palestine. As you point out, many Jews and Arabs were upset by this.

So, why are the people Palestinian when I just agreed that they objected to the name of the land? It's for the same reason the Syrians are Syrian and the Jordanians are Jordanian.  They needed a name for their identity. They would have been happy with a Greater Syria that included Palestine, but when that failed, they focused their attention on a Palestinian state. In 1911, there were people who called their nation "the Palestinians." By 1948, it was a real identity. That is the origin of the name of the people. It's not the origin of the people, however.

Who are the people? Well, they're Arabs, obviously. But who are the Arabs? Did nomads from the Arabian desert really repopulate a region from Morocco to Iraq? What happened to those already living there? Historical records say they converted to Islam. "Arab" is really a socio-linguistic term for people who were conquered by the Arabs and adopted their customs and language. There is Arab blood in many of them. But the farther you get from Arabia, the more spread out that blood is. That's why Sudanese Arabs are so much darker than Lebanese. So, the Palestinian people are the people who lived in the Holy Land when they were conquered by the Arabs (a mixture of Jews, Greeks, Syrians, etc.). They took the language, religion and even spouses from the Arabs. That's why genetic studies show them to be a lot closer to the Jews than the other Arabs are to the Jews. The Jews in the Holy Land are also Arabs in the sense that they primarily communicated in Arabic, but as they kept their religion, they also primarily married only other Jews.

I will draw a parallel to another genetic study that is potentially controversial--the UK. We all know that there were ancient Britons. We know that the Irish are Celtic and the English and Germanic (Angles and Saxons). Well, genetic studies showed that they are all primarily one people. They're all the Britons. These people did not go away when the Gaelic people came. All of Great Britain took the Celtic language, culture and some Celtic blood. Then the Angles and Saxons came in and drove the Celts into Ireland. But once again, all the Celts did not leave England. The Irish have ancestry from the Britons and the Celts. The English have ancestry from the Britons, Celts and Anglo-Saxons. The English took the language and culture from the Anglo-Saxons and today are known as Anglo-Saxon. But ethnically, they descended from the Britons. Can I still call the English, English? Of course I can. But I can also point out that it doesn't mean the English or more closely related to the Germans than they are to the Irish. (Likewise, the French are primarily the Gauls, not the German Francs).


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## theliq (Oct 6, 2011)

YOU ARE AN I D I O T.......like Jstone and others you should be BANNED from this SITE Quick Fast


chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## editec (Oct 6, 2011)

PGM,

Its pointless to keep showing people historical evidence if they catagorically refuse to acknowledge it.

Pearls before swine, amigo.


Once someone proves that they are* fact impervious*, continuing to try to convince them is a waste of your time.


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## pgm (Oct 6, 2011)

editec said:


> PGM,
> 
> Its pointless to keep showing people historical evidence if they catagorically refuse to acknowledge it.
> 
> ...



I know. I really need to stop. I'd have considered it a victory if we had had an actual debate where I make posts and the other side made counter points that related to my points. Instead I got: Appeals to Authority, Arguments from fallacy, Fallacies of necessity, Affirming disjuncts, Denying the antecedent, Arguments from repetition, Begging the question, Circular cause and consequence, Equivocation, Ecological fallacies, False dichotomy, etc.


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 6, 2011)

Sorry bout that,






theliq said:


> YOU ARE AN I D I O T.......like Jstone and others you should be BANNED from this SITE Quick Fast
> 
> 
> chesswarsnow said:
> ...






1. To bad this isn't a site you have control of.
2. Seeing you have an aversion to the truth.
3. Seeing you're shunning the truth, you're just a small step from being a duffas.
4. If you have a problem with th OP, lets go!
5. If you have a problem with me, lets go!
6. Either way, you can go fuck yourself!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## theliq (Oct 6, 2011)

You must be SCYTSOID...round and round in ever decreasing circles......I would ban you from ever reading the Bible as your interpretation is nuts....you asked earlier if Palestine was named after the PHILISTINES..My God you really are as mental as the other DRIPPS on here.

What Future for America if you Guys are the best of the next thinkers and movers!!!!!!!UNBELIEVABLE





pgm said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > PGM,
> ...


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## theliq (Oct 6, 2011)

Bloody FOOOOOOOOL


chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 6, 2011)

Sorry bout that,


1. Look *thehairlip*, everyone here sees you got squat.
2. Just piss off loser.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## JStone (Oct 6, 2011)

editec said:


> PGM,
> 
> Its pointless to keep showing people historical evidence if they catagorically refuse to acknowledge it.
> 
> ...



Historian Bernard Lewis...


> The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new.  This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites.  But, Palestine was not one of them.  People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality.  But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying province of Syria
> 
> The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate  [1948]





> It is by now commonplace that the civilizations of the Middle East are oldest known to human history.  They go back thousands of years, much older than the civilizations of India and China, not to speak of other upstart places.  It is also interesting, though now often forgotten, that the ancient civilizations of the Middle East were almost totally obliterated and forgotten by their own people as well as by others.  Their monuments were defaced or destroyed, their languages forgotten, their scripts forgotten, their history forgotten and even their identities forgotten.  All that was known about them came from one single source, and that is Israel, the only component of the ancient Middle East to have retained their identity, their memory, their language and their books.  For a very long time, up to comparatively modern times, with rare exceptions all that was known about the ancient Middle East--the Babylonians, the Egyptians and the rest--was what the Jewish tradiiton has preserved.





> The word Palestine does not occur in the Old Testament.  Palestine does not occur in the New Testament



References to Palestine in Hebrew Bible: Zero

References to Palestine in Christian Bible: Zero

References to Palestine in Quran: Zero

References to Israel in Bible: 2000 times

References to Palestine in Zoroastrian Avesta: Zero    

References to Palestine in Septuagint Greek Translation of Hebrew Bible: Zero

References to Palestine in any ancient historical documents: Zero

References to Palestine in any archaeological artifacts: Zero


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## JStone (Oct 6, 2011)

pgm said:


> Actually, it appears to be a comment on the Haddith, so I apologize for my oversight.
> 
> Thawr ibn Yazid (770 AD): The most holy spot [al-quds] on earth is Syria; the most holy spot in Syria is Palestine; the most holy spot in Palestine is Jerusalem [Bayt al-maqdis]; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the Mountain; the most holy spot in Jerusalem is the place of worship [al-masjid], and the most holy spot in the place of worship is the Dome."



Renowned Islamic Scholar Bernard Lewis...


> For Arabs, the term Palestine was unacceptable. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole [of Syria]. For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point.



Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa


> For more than 60 years, Bernard Lewis, the doyen of Middle East historians, has interpreted the world of Islam to the West. Born and raised in London, he studied at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies, where he earned a Ph.D. in the History of Islam. After service during World War II, he taught at the University of London until 1974 and at Princeton University until 1986. He is currently Princeton's Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies.
> 
> Professor Lewis has drawn on primary sources in Middle Eastern and other languages to produce more than two dozen books, including The Arabs in History and the post-9/11 international best-sellers What Went Wrong? and Crisis in Islam. Professor Lewis has performed the invaluable service of placing current events in the context of history.
> 
> ...


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## pgm (Oct 6, 2011)

I'll take that as you agreeing with me.


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