# Is it fair to have pit bulls around other people?



## Ravi

Thoughts?


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## uscitizen

No problem with me if I am packing.
But keep them away from the grandchildren.


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## Ravi

uscitizen said:


> No problem with me if I am packing.
> But keep them away from the grandchildren.


Sensible. I bought my first gun when my neighbor's idiotic daughter's moronic boyfriend bought a pit bull...that immediately tried to take over MY yard and kill MY dog. My dog can fend for herself but my kids didn't have that luxury.


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## uscitizen

I have killed a few dogs in the last couple of years.  Chasing my stock mostly.  One was killing a cat in my barn.  MY CAT!  That dog died suddenly and I killed it too soon as the cat made it and cost me over $400.  still debating on whether it was worth it or not.

The owner actually had the gall to threaten to sue me.  

We have a leash law and are legally allowed to kill any dog threatning property or life.

IMHO many pit bull owners suffer from small mans issues.


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## Coyote

Ravi said:


> Thoughts?



The poll answers are insufficient.

It depends on the individual dog.


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## Citizen

uscitizen said:


> I have killed a few dogs in the last couple of years.  Chasing my stock mostly.  One was killing a cat in my barn.  MY CAT!  That dog died suddenly and I killed it too soon as the cat made it and cost me over $400.  still debating on whether it was worth it or not.
> 
> The owner actually had the gall to threaten to sue me.
> 
> We have a leash law and are legally allowed to kill any dog threatning property or life.
> 
> IMHO many pit bull owners suffer from small mans issues.



Back when I was growing up any dog that killed stock was fair game and no one would own up to being their owner.

When a dog, usually a pack of dogs attack a calf on our farm it would end up dead floating down the river and we never had any complaints from the owners because they were afraid to admit to owning the dogs because they were afraid they would have to pay for the calf.

FYI, none of the dogs we had to kill were pit bulls, and I have known several that were very good pets and never threatened anyone.

BTW, most of the dog whispers dogs are pit bulls that he rescued.


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## Ringel05

Only if they're anti smoking nazis and only if you tell the dog: sic em!


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## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Thoughts?


Whoa! Look who's f-eeling guilty about being an in your face smoker!


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## RetiredGySgt

It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.

What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.


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## Coyote

RetiredGySgt said:


> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.



Which in the end means it depends on the dog - the individual dog - more than the breed.

Chaining dogs is a good receipe for a dog bite.


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## RetiredGySgt

Coyote said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which in the end means it depends on the dog - the individual dog - more than the breed.
> 
> Chaining dogs is a good receipe for a dog bite.
Click to expand...


When you have no fence you have no choice. Stupid people need to learn not to run up to dogs on chains.


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## strollingbones

chain a dog and kids can taunt it and all....then when it explodes on a kid...people are all about the breed being bad...


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## Luissa




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## Douger

Is it fair to force pit bulls to be around sheeple ?


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## Ravi

RetiredGySgt said:


> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> *
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.*


That is also true of alligators.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Ravi said:


> Thoughts?


You're an idiot.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

uscitizen said:


> No problem with me if I am packing.
> But keep them away from the grandchildren.


I knew someone with a pit. The kids loved her. She was just an overgrows lapdog, really.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

RetiredGySgt said:


> Stupid people need to learn not to run up to dogs on chains.


People run up to dogs on chains? 

I usually kneel and call and see whether the dog wants to come over over.

Aiint been bit yet- although I've had a few cats nick me... I don't like cats


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Ravi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> *
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.*
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
Click to expand...


I repeat: You're an idiot.


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## eots

pittys rule


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## chanel

They are the preferred breed for drug dealers and thugs.  I would like to see a dog registry at the police station so they have a list of homes to watch.


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## eots

chanel said:


> They are the preferred breed for drug dealers and thugs.  I would like to see a dog registry at the police station so they have a list of homes to watch.



Hiel Hitler..


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## RetiredGySgt

Ravi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> *
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.*
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
Click to expand...


Dumb ass, an alligator WILL try to eat something in its space if it thinks it can, a dog won't attack if properly trained and treated and not threatened.

Pit Bulls are only dangerous if mistreated, mistrained or poorly handled. They are sweet dogs with lots of love and caring in them.


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## Dis

Ravi said:


> Thoughts?



It's not fair to have any animals around other people.

Other people suck.


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## chanel

I agree Sarge, but when raised by drug dealers and thugs, they are often mishandled and mistrained.  They are used for protection and trained to attack.  That's why I am serious about a dog registry.  And I have a real problem with people on food stamps being able to buy food for their animals.  Feed your friggin children first.


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## RetiredGySgt

chanel said:


> I agree Sarge, but when raised by drug dealers and thugs, they are often mishandled and mistrained.  They are used for protection and trained to attack.  That's why I am serious about a dog registry.  And I have a real problem with people on food stamps being able to buy food for their animals.  Feed your friggin children first.



For some people their pets ARE their children. I consider my 3 dogs as part of the family, granted if it comes down to choosing between one of my kids and a pet I will chose the child, but not before I make sure there is no other choice.


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## chanel

Ah... but how many illigitimate children do you have with multiple partners that are being fed by the taxpayers?  No one has the "right" to own animals if they don't have the means to care for them properly.  I feel the same way about kids, but realize that's an unpopular position.


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## Ravi

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> *
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.*
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dumb ass, an alligator WILL try to eat something in its space if it thinks it can, a dog won't attack if properly trained and treated and not threatened.
> 
> *Pit Bulls are only dangerous if mistreated, mistrained or poorly handled. They are sweet dogs with lots of love and caring in them.*
Click to expand...

Problem being, one doesn't know if a particular pit is sweet natured or not. And since they do have a reputation for killing...is it right to have them around other people?


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## Dis

Ravi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumb ass, an alligator WILL try to eat something in its space if it thinks it can, a dog won't attack if properly trained and treated and not threatened.
> 
> *Pit Bulls are only dangerous if mistreated, mistrained or poorly handled. They are sweet dogs with lots of love and caring in them.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Problem being, one doesn't know if a particular pit is sweet natured or not. And since they do have a reputation for killing...is it right to have them around other people?
Click to expand...


Are you mad at Ang?  Is that why this is being rehashed for the second or third time?


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## code1211

Coyote said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The poll answers are insufficient.
> 
> It depends on the individual dog.
Click to expand...




It depends on the *owner. * 

A Pit Bull, re-read that name to gain understanding of the breed, is like a dangerous weapon.  It might be fine fenced into a junkyard or running on 500 acres out in the country.  In a city or a neighborhood with kids?  No way.

Owners who have Pit Bulls are making a statement.  That statement is not always "responsibiity".  The difference between a loaded gun and a Pit Bull is that the gun can't stand up and go next door and kill a new born.

The gun moves only when it is moved.  The dog can move on its own and make decisions that aren't always in the best interest of people.


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## code1211

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> *
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.*
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dumb ass, an alligator WILL try to eat something in its space if it thinks it can, a dog won't attack if properly trained and treated and not threatened.
> 
> Pit Bulls are only dangerous if mistreated, mistrained or poorly handled. They are sweet dogs with lots of love and caring in them.
Click to expand...



How often do we read about a Cockerspanial mauling a child?  It seems like once every year we get another Pit Bull ate the kid story.

Your thoughts on the training are probably right until the dog gets doggy dementia, then another kid dies.


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## Dis

code1211 said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumb ass, an alligator WILL try to eat something in its space if it thinks it can, a dog won't attack if properly trained and treated and not threatened.
> 
> Pit Bulls are only dangerous if mistreated, mistrained or poorly handled. They are sweet dogs with lots of love and caring in them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How often do we read about a Cockerspanial mauling a child?  It seems like once every year we get another Pit Bull ate the kid story.
> 
> Your thoughts on the training are probably right until the dog gets doggy dementia, then another kid dies.
Click to expand...


And if you delve a little deeper into those stories, you'll usually find out that Mom & Dad were off minding their own business, paying no attention to little Timmy.  Meanwhile, little Timmy's pulling ears, whiskers, blowing/barking into the dogs face, and trying to ride him/her like a pony.

Responsibility is a *requirement* on the owners part.  Had a pit/rottie mix where I worked at one point, and that dog was the *biggest* baby in the world.


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## American Horse

Luissa said:


>



Luissa, that looks exactly like a picture of my Staffy/PB.  There's only one thing wrong; the cat would be limp.

After my son found her chained in the basement of an abandoned rental, he brought her home and made her our family pet.  She was as gentle as she could be but it was in her nature to despise small creatures.  We installed a 100 foot long line which she could travel along and 15' on both sides.  Then I put a chain link fence around about an acre so she could have free rein there.  Son loved her but was too busy to walk her as much as she needed.  I began to walk her every night for about an hour.  They absolutely do need that kind of care, and attention.  At the time we had 40-acres but that wasn't enough that cats wouldn't enter her domain.

They are naturally a loving breed, which desperately needs human interaction, and as fond as we all were of ours, I believe the breeding of them should be discouraged because of the way people who will own them will tend to them.  I think the insurance requirements for PBs (as well as other breeds) actually discourages more responsible people from becoming owners


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## uscitizen

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which in the end means it depends on the dog - the individual dog - more than the breed.
> 
> Chaining dogs is a good receipe for a dog bite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you have no fence you have no choice. Stupid people need to learn not to run up to dogs on chains.
Click to expand...


imho  NO fence NO dog.


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## uscitizen

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> *
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.*
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dumb ass, an alligator WILL try to eat something in its space if it thinks it can, a dog won't attack if properly trained and treated and not threatened.
> 
> Pit Bulls are only dangerous if mistreated, mistrained or poorly handled. They are sweet dogs with lots of love and caring in them.
Click to expand...


And how many people properly train their dogs?  I know I never had mine trained.

Pits have different instincts and are very agressive in Pack mode.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

chanel said:


> They are the preferred breed for drug dealers and thugs.  I would like to see a dog registry at the police station so they have a list of homes to watch.


Are you trying to out-stupid Anguille?


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Ravi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumb ass, an alligator WILL try to eat something in its space if it thinks it can, a dog won't attack if properly trained and treated and not threatened.
> 
> *Pit Bulls are only dangerous if mistreated, mistrained or poorly handled. They are sweet dogs with lots of love and caring in them.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Problem being, one doesn't know if a particular pit is sweet natured or not. And since they do have a reputation for killing...is it right to have them around other people?
Click to expand...

It's not usually too hard to determine whether a dog is preparing to kill you.

Here's an idea: treat all animals with big sharp teeth as though they have the potential to kill you if you piss them off (eg: by kicking them) and act accordingly (eg: not kicking them).


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

code1211 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The poll answers are insufficient.
> 
> It depends on the individual dog.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on the *owner. *
> 
> A Pit Bull, re-read that name to gain understanding of the breed, is like a dangerous weapon.  It might be fine fenced into a junkyard or running on 500 acres out in the country.  In a city or a neighborhood with kids?  No way.
> 
> Owners who have Pit Bulls are making a statement.  That statement is not always "responsibiity".  The difference between a loaded gun and a Pit Bull is that the gun can't stand up and go next door and kill a new born.
> 
> The gun moves only when it is moved.  The dog can move on its own and make decisions that aren't always in the best interest of people.
Click to expand...

You can make any dog mean, no matter the breed.


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## Zoom-boing

I think the government should decide for me if it's ok for people to even own pit bulls.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

uscitizen said:


> NO fence NO dog.


Makes sense to me.


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## Anguille

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which in the end means it depends on the dog - the individual dog - more than the breed.
> 
> Chaining dogs is a good receipe for a dog bite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you have no fence you have no choice. Stupid people need to learn not to run up to dogs on chains.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that a dog behind a fence is about almost as likely to be territorial or feel cornered as a dog on a chain or a leash. Dogs do have to be contained though. I think the major problem is dogs that are always chained or kept in an enclosed space and never taken out for exercise. Dogs are animals which naturally roam and explore. They need to be given regular exercise, mentally and physically.


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## Anguille

Coyote said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which in the end means it depends on the dog - the individual dog - more than the breed.
> 
> Chaining dogs is a good receipe for a dog bite.
Click to expand...

The difference between dog breeds is not much more than that between humans of different races. Dogs are all one species just as humans are all humans.


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## Anguille

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1884727 said:
			
		

> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> *
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.*
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true of alligators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I repeat: You're an idiot.
Click to expand...

 I think Ravi believes pit bull are an entirely different wild species, unrelated to domesticated dogs.


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## Anguille

chanel said:


> They are the preferred breed for drug dealers and thugs.  I would like to see a dog registry at the police station so they have a list of homes to watch.


Translation : Black people like them so lets take out our hatred on their dogs.


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## Anguille

chanel said:


> I agree Sarge, but when raised by drug dealers and thugs, they are often mishandled and mistrained.  They are used for protection and trained to attack.  That's why I am serious about a dog registry.  And I have a real problem with people on food stamps being able to buy food for their animals.  Feed your friggin children first.


Food stamps can't be used to pay for dog food.


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## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Problem being, one doesn't know if a particular pit is sweet natured or not. And since they do have a reputation for killing...is it right to have them around other people?


They only have that reputation with dingbats like you. They haven't got it with veterinarians and other people in the scientific community. That's why the Center for Disease Control,  medical and veterinary associations and SPAs who all rely on facts and not fear mongering like you do,  have all come out against breed specific laws. They believe they do not address the problem of vicious dogs and may even exacerbate the problem because those types of laws lead people to believe they just have to choose the right breed to get a good tempered pet and they don't have to put any effort into giving it proper training and care. 

If breed specific laws were a good idea we'd have tons of them, not just in areas where the local politicians felt the need to go on a witch hunt against a type of dog to stir up votes amongst the ignorant and avoid dealing with real issues. 
 You have no way of know if any dog of any breed or non breed is sweet-natured or not. So treat all dogs you don't know with the same caution and respect.


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## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which in the end means it depends on the dog - the individual dog - more than the breed.
> 
> Chaining dogs is a good receipe for a dog bite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The difference between dog breeds is not much more than that between humans of different races. Dogs are all one species just as humans are all humans.
Click to expand...


I understand what you are saying but I'm not so sure about that.  Dogs have been bred and manipulated by humans for thousands of years.  Physically you can see that in size, shape, hair coat, and tail carriage but it also exists in temperment with a far wider range then humans.

When we breed dogs for jobs we breed them to retain portions of their instincts and discard others.  A good herding dog retains the instinct to stalk, fetch, control the movement of stock and work the stock to the handler - all portions of hunting behavior.  Bird dogs and retrievers retain the instinct to pick up and carry things (but with a puppylike soft mouth rather than a killing hold), the instinct to hunt is cut short at the stalk and freeze portion or flushing out the prey to the human.  None of those dogs are bred to kill the prey.  Other hounds - coursing dogs - are.  They retain almost the complete sequence with some bits missing - they are released when the prey is insight to run it down and kill it.  Pitbulls were bred primarily to fight other dogs.  They are terriers and that is common to most terriers - a high degree of prey drive and dog-on-dog aggression.  But a lot of pits, for years have simply bred for family companions and been excellant.  I think the rise of the drug trade, innercity gangs and their use of dogs to enhance their image has been fracturing the pitbull breed and creating some truely dangerous dogs because they are being bred and encouraged to be aggressive and to have a very high level of prey drive that is not properly channeled.  

The problem with Pitbulls is complex because they aren't really a "breed" - more of type with a wide range.  They should have excellent temperments - they were bred for years to fight other dogs but also to be good family members and aggression towards their handlers was not tolerated.  But you have a different demographic getting "into" the pitbull and that is the drug lords, street thugs and anyone who wants to have the canine equivelent of a magnum in the publics eye.  They've created and encourage an image that could be the demise of a wonderful breed of dog.  You can see it in breeder webpages with emphasis on oversize, over muscled, dogs with violent names and violent imagery surrounding them (chains, hoops of fire, devil dog motiffs etc.).  People that buy them want that imagery and are likely to encourage it.  

What the pitbull needs, as a breed, is what the Doberman's got.  Years ago Doberman's had the devil dog image and some very dodgy temperments to the point where the breed was really in danger.  Their breed club took action, put together a set of ethics, enforced it and encouraged it and improved the temperment of their breed overall.  There will always be trash breeders and trash owners, but at least the breed as a whole is no longer in trouble.  I honestly think some sort of grouping together of pitbull owners and breeders is the best hope for this wonderful dog.  Just saying they are wonderful dogs (which they are) is not enough because there clearly are some serious problems that can't be ignored in the way breeders promote them the "culture" likes to portray them.  In today's society a pitbull has to be better than the average dog - if a pit does anything wrong, it's all over the media even though a child may have been attacked and killed by another breed that had little attention paid to it.

The sad thing is, the qualities that make pitbuls such wonderful dogs - the ability to withstand a lot of abuse and bounce back, retaining trust and a friendly temperment and their incredible athleticism make it easy for them to be abused and mistreated where other breeds would snap.

Anyway....off my soapbox


----------



## Coyote

chanel said:


> I agree Sarge, but when raised by drug dealers and thugs, they are often mishandled and mistrained.  They are used for protection and trained to attack.  That's why I am serious about a dog registry.  And I have a real problem with people on food stamps *being able to buy food for their animals*.  Feed your friggin children first.



I don't.  Sometimes an animal can be the only source of uncomplicated love that they have.


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Problem being, one doesn't know if a particular pit is sweet natured or not. And since they do have a reputation for killing...is it right to have them around other people?
> 
> 
> 
> *They only have that reputation with dingbats like you.* They haven't got it with veterinarians and other people in the scientific community. That's why the Center for Disease Control,  medical and veterinary associations and SPAs who all rely on facts and not fear mongering like you do,  have all come out against breed specific laws. They believe they do not address the problem of vicious dogs and may even exacerbate the problem because those types of laws lead people to believe they just have to choose the right breed to get a good tempered pet and they don't have to put any effort into giving it proper training and care.
> 
> If breed specific laws were a good idea we'd have tons of them, not just in areas where the local politicians felt the need to go on a witch hunt against a type of dog to stir up votes amongst the ignorant and avoid dealing with real issues.
> You have no way of know if any dog of any breed or non breed is sweet-natured or not. So treat all dogs you don't know with the same caution and respect.
Click to expand...

 Not so. They have the reputation because they are aggressive and many of those that own them cannot control them. Plus that little troubling fact that they have more brute strength and determination to finish the kill than many other breeds.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> I understand what you are saying .................
> Anyway....off my soapbox


Great post!  You make a lot of good points.

I think though that you cannot breed viciousness into a dog. It's not an instinctual behavior like having a tendency for a soft mouth that can be bred into gun dogs. 

This is were people who claim pit bulls are naturally vicious killers start to sound just like people who claim blacks have an inborn tendency to steal and Jews are wired to cheat people out of money.

It's weird how the branding of America has spilled over into how people see dogs nowadays. It all about the breed just as it's all about the brand of clothing you wear. People sem to think that because they buy a dog that has some sort of certificate saying it's purebred golden retriever that they know exactly what they are buying as if they bought a pair of designer jeans. They don't realize it's living creature and that it has much more in common with other members of it's species than it does with some standardised ideal of what the dog breeding industry wants you to think it is. 
I'm pretty much across the board against most dog breeding because it has led to so much abuse of dogs for the sake of fashion or gambling or other things. Pit bulls are one off the breeds that has suffered less than say English bulldogs or teacup chihuahuas from deformaties due to over breeding. I agree with you that owners probably should forn association like the owners of German shepherds and Dobermans did when those breeds where considered public enemy #!. I think that education has acheived a degree of success already in correcting misconceptions about pit bulls because I see more and more people willing to adopt abandoned ones in my state. Still there is along way to go.

And seeing as how people are people, I think that once pit bulls pass from being the scapegoat another breed will probably get put in their place. Just like it seems many people have a need to scapegoat certain ethnic or religious groups .


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Problem being, one doesn't know if a particular pit is sweet natured or not. And since they do have a reputation for killing...is it right to have them around other people?
> 
> 
> 
> *They only have that reputation with dingbats like you.* They haven't got it with veterinarians and other people in the scientific community. That's why the Center for Disease Control,  medical and veterinary associations and SPAs who all rely on facts and not fear mongering like you do,  have all come out against breed specific laws. They believe they do not address the problem of vicious dogs and may even exacerbate the problem because those types of laws lead people to believe they just have to choose the right breed to get a good tempered pet and they don't have to put any effort into giving it proper training and care.
> 
> If breed specific laws were a good idea we'd have tons of them, not just in areas where the local politicians felt the need to go on a witch hunt against a type of dog to stir up votes amongst the ignorant and avoid dealing with real issues.
> You have no way of know if any dog of any breed or non breed is sweet-natured or not. So treat all dogs you don't know with the same caution and respect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not so. They have the reputation because they are aggressive and many of those that own them cannot control them. Plus that little troubling fact that they have more brute strength and determination to finish the kill than many other breeds.
Click to expand...

link?


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> Not so. They have the reputation because they are aggressive and many of those that own them cannot control them. Plus that little troubling fact that they have more brute strength and determination to finish the kill than many other breeds.



They can have a fairly high prey drive and they can have a high degree of dog-to-dog aggression, but that is not much worse then a number of other breeds.  If you're talking about aggression towards humans - there are breeds with a greater reputation for that but the media doesn't bother with them.


----------



## Ravi

Coyote said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. They have the reputation because they are aggressive and many of those that own them cannot control them. Plus that little troubling fact that they have more brute strength and determination to finish the kill than many other breeds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can have a fairly high prey drive and they can have a high degree of dog-to-dog aggression, but that is not much worse then a number of other breeds.  If you're talking about aggression towards humans - there are breeds with a greater reputation for that but the media doesn't bother with them.
Click to expand...

That could be true...but perhaps they aren't bothered with because they are more uncommon. 

Thanks for not bringing up Angie's usual silliness about attack tea cup dogs. 

And Angie, you're insane if you think dogs can't be bred to be aggressive.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. They have the reputation because they are aggressive and many of those that own them cannot control them. Plus that little troubling fact that they have more brute strength and determination to finish the kill than many other breeds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can have a fairly high prey drive and they can have a high degree of dog-to-dog aggression, but that is not much worse then a number of other breeds.  If you're talking about aggression towards humans - there are breeds with a greater reputation for that but the media doesn't bother with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That could be true...but perhaps they aren't bothered with because they are more uncommon.
> 
> Thanks for not bringing up Angie's usual silliness about attack tea cup dogs.
> 
> And Angie, you're insane if you think dogs can't be bred to be aggressive.
Click to expand...


Pit bull breeders, the nasty kind, have not been very successful at breeding aggression into pit bulls because most of them are not aggressive. 
Aggressive behavior is best produced by training to encourage it and by not neutering male dogs. A male dog not being neutered is a better indicator of it's chances for attacking another dog or a human than what breed it might be. 
And by the way I said viciousness, not aggression. Dogs do, by nature have a certain amount of aggression. Just as humans do, but pit bulls do not carry a gene for mauling babies as you seem to think.
You don't sem to have a very good grasp on science or evolution,  Ravi. It took thousands of years to domesticate dogs. It would take thousands more to create a breed of dog that was no longer domesticated and which preyed on humans. Pit bulls just haven't been around that long.

Coyote also made some good points about pit bulls not even being a real breed. 

But go one ignoring what the experts I mentioned in my above post have said and keep maligning pit bulls. Muslims or pit bulls serve both the same purpose for you. Something to hate.


----------



## Ravi

It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.

Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs.  People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.
> 
> Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs.  People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.


How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings? 

Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand what you are saying .................
> Anyway....off my soapbox
> 
> 
> 
> Great post!  You make a lot of good points.
> 
> I think though that you cannot breed viciousness into a dog. It's not an instinctual behavior like having a tendency for a soft mouth that can be bred into gun dogs.
Click to expand...

 
I'm not sure...temperments can be very tricky and seperating the genetic from the enironmental is difficult.  I'll put forth some "food for thought" here....

Some breeds are bred specifically for a high degree of aggression towards strangers.  These are breeds where they are inherently suspcicious of anything "out of the ordinary", they don't take many cues from the owner as to the acceptability of the stranger and remain highly suspicious.  If you look at the genetic evolution of instincts and temperment and what is called "neotany" you'll see that is typical of very young pups in a certain period of development where they are very suspicous and react with fear at anything strange.  Where-as pups normally grow of this - certain breeds are bred to retain this high degree of suspicion.  Breeds like livestock guardian dogs for example - Anatolians, Great Pyranees etc. who bond with their flock whom they are raised with as puppies and regard strange canines or humans as threats or the Presa Canary dogs, a breed that is very suspicious and also very powerful and assertive.  These breeds need intensive socialization that is on going and a knowledgeable owner if they are going to live in an area where they encounter a lot of people because they don't like strangers much and quite likely won't be entirely comfortable in certain situations.  That's instinctual, it's bred into them and while aggression towards humans may not have been intentional it's the by-product of what those dogs were bred for in the same way as a soft mouth.  I guess the problem is - what happens when genetic temperment intersects with environment and how the dog was reared.

If you at dogs bred for a guardian type temperment such as German Shepherds or Australian Shepherds you have breeds with a lot of "edge" to them.  They are not as anti-social as the prior group but they are very atuned to any difference in their environment and, if not properly socialized will react.  I am not sure whether the Presa fits here or with the above but it is a breed with a high degree of aggression bred into it for "protection" purposes.  With any breed bred for that, you can get a time bomb if the dog is not socialized right.  It is often difficult to tell if the "protection" is based on fear, confidence or a combination unwittingly encouraged by the clueless owner.  That is a very dangerous mix.

Another aspect of temperment is how forgiving and flexable it is.  Some breeds are much more forgiving of isolation, trauma and mistreatment and can emerged unscathed others are not.  I've seen pitbulls on both ends of that.  I've found many of the breeds in the herding group to be much less forgiving and more easily fucked up (such as Aussies and GSD's, which I am more familiar with).

Another thing that I think some Pitbulls have that works against them and can lead to bite incidents is that with their facial musculature and tight tight skin, they can be very difficult to read.  If you cut off their ears in a fighting crop - communication  is even more muted. Dogs like that don't always telegraph their intentions clearly the way other breeds can.  In addition some breeds like Chows and Akitas are notorious for giving away very little of what they think before they act.  So, if a kid (or adult) commits what in doggie lingo is a gross breach of manners and puts his arm over the dogs shoulders in a hug - a well socialized dog with a stable temperment would tolerate it, another dog might move way or growl and another might immediately bite as if the child were a rude dog.  That can lead to screaming which in many dogs elicits prey behavior and mauling.  It's a fine line.

So...while I think most of the time you aren't "breeding viciousness into the dog" you are breeding for a variety of traits that come together in a way that night all too easily produce a vicious dog - sometimes breed traits, sometimes individual quirks and sometimes both coming together with a bad environment and poor socialization.




> This is were people who claim pit bulls are naturally vicious killers start to sound just like people who claim blacks have an inborn tendency to steal and Jews are wired to cheat people out of money.



I totally agree - it's very much dependent on the individual dog.  Among the top breeds most likely to bite are Dachsunds and German Shepherds.  Pits are pretty far down I think.



> It's weird how *the branding of America has spilled over into how people see dogs *nowadays. It all about the breed just as it's all about the brand of clothing you wear. People sem to think that because they buy a dog that has some sort of certificate saying it's purebred golden retriever that they know exactly what they are buying as if they bought a pair of designer jeans. They don't realize it's living creature and that it has *much more in common with other members of it's species than it does with some standardised ideal of what the dog breeding industry wants you to think it is*.



That is a really interesting point!  And so true!  I work with Aussie Rescue (ARPH) - and more often then not I find what people want when they think they want an aussie is not a hard working dog with strong guardian and herding instincts but some sort of Golden Retriever in a blue merle suit.  People get these puppies and then they don't know what to do when the dog exhibits the traits it was bred for.



> I'm pretty much across the board against most dog breeding because it has led to so much abuse of dogs for the sake of fashion or gambling or other things. Pit bulls are one off the breeds that has suffered less than say English bulldogs or teacup chihuahuas from deformaties due to over breeding. I agree with you that owners probably should forn association like the owners of German shepherds and Dobermans did when those breeds where considered public enemy #!. I think that education has acheived a degree of success already in correcting misconceptions about pit bulls because I see more and more people willing to adopt abandoned ones in my state. Still there is along way to go.
> 
> And seeing as how people are people, I think that once pit bulls pass from being the scapegoat another breed will probably get put in their place. Just like it seems many people have a need to scapegoat certain ethnic or religious groups .



I couldn't agree more!!!!


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.



That really depends on the traits and how purpposefully you are breeding for them.  Also...strictly speaking your statement doesn't make much sense....

However long or short a generation is.....it has no effect on how many generations are needed.




> Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs.  People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.



There are some pretty good theories on it, that make a lot of sense and seems to fit with existing physical evidence of changes in jaws, teeth, size and behavior - dog's co-evolved with human civilization as scavengers.  In order to be a successfull scavenger and live close to human habitation, they would need a reduced flight/fight reaction which in turn encourages domestication and scavenging leads to less of a need for powerful teeth and a more fluid social system that includes humans.  The Coppingers wrote an excellant book on it.


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.
> 
> Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs.  People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.
> 
> 
> 
> How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings?
> 
> Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
> Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.
Click to expand...

You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:

Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.

Here is a case where expert testimony was used:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf

Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.

Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate

I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.


----------



## Ravi

Coyote said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That really depends on the traits and how purpposefully you are breeding for them.  Also...strictly speaking your statement doesn't make much sense....
> *
> However long or short a generation is.....it has no effect on how many generations are needed.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs.  People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are some pretty good theories on it, that make a lot of sense and seems to fit with existing physical evidence of changes in jaws, teeth, size and behavior - dog's co-evolved with human civilization as scavengers.  In order to be a successfull scavenger and live close to human habitation, they would need a reduced flight/fight reaction which in turn encourages domestication and scavenging leads to less of a need for powerful teeth and a more fluid social system that includes humans.  The Coppingers wrote an excellant book on it.
Click to expand...

 No, of course not...I was strictly referring to time. You could also breed people to be aggressive, but it would take many, many more years than it would for dogs because our reproduction cycles don't kick in for at least 13 years after birth. In that time period you could have bred your thirteenth generation of a dog family.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Coyote said:


> I understand what you are saying but I'm not so sure about that.  Dogs have been bred and manipulated by humans for thousands of years.  Physically you can see that in size, shape, hair coat, and tail carriage but it also exists in temperment with a far wider range then humans.














*General population*

 The racial composition of the US population as of 2008 was 79.79% White American (65.60% non-Hispanic and 14.19% Hispanic), 12.84% African American (12.22% non-Hispanic and 0.62% Hispanic), 4.45% Asian American (4.35% non-Hispanic and 0.10% Hispanic),  1.01% American Indian or Alaska Native (0.76% non-Hispanic and 0.25% Hispanic),  0.18% Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander American (0.14%  non-Hispanic and 0.04% Hispanic), and 1.69% Multiracial American (1.64%  non-Hispanic and 0.05% Hispanic). 15.25% of the total US population  identified their ethnicity as Hispanic.[8]
* Prison population*

 Further information: Incarceration in the United  States
 The racial composition of the US prison and jail population as of  2008 was 33.44% White American (non-Hispanic), 40.21% African American  (non-Hispanic), 20.29% Hispanic, and 6.06% Other (American Indian,  Alaska Native, Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander  American, and Multiracial American).[9]










(stats show that blacks are most oft killed by blacks)


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Anguille said:


> This is were people who claim pit bulls are naturally vicious killers start to sound just like people who claim blacks have an inborn tendency to steal



Crime rates and the entire continent of Africa prove it. Blacks are incapable as a race of civilized society. They only truly flourish when elevated by the White man.The ones we brought with us? Now their ancestors have indoor plumbing, a shot at a good education for the one in a million with a brain, and a better life in prison for the rest of the animals than the ones still in Africa. The ones that went back> Well, just look at Liberia today versus the US or Western Europe.

Those are the facts of the matter.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.
> 
> Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs.  People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.
> 
> 
> 
> How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings?
> 
> Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
> Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:
> 
> Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.
> 
> Here is a case where expert testimony was used:
> 
> http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf
> 
> Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.
> 
> Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate
> 
> I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.
Click to expand...

   I think you missed the part again where I said I was talking about viciousness in dogs not aggression, which occurs naturally in all dogs.

Your second link is sponsored by a lawyer specializing in suing people bitten by dogs  looking to drum up business for his practice.

*Meet your host:*



 Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog. 	    His clients include children and adults throughout the United States. 
 	  Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free.








Some expert witness you have there, Rabid Ravi.  

I disagree with you third source's opinion that pit bulls should be singled out for laws making breeding them illegal. There was no convincing evidence present as to why. Just a lot of fear mongering imagery. 

Until you can produce something credible, I'll continue with putting my confidence in the Center for Disease Control, medical and veterinary associations and SPA's which have all denounced breed specific laws as being based on fallacious assumptions and conterproductive to the effort to reduce violent encounters between dogs and humans.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> I'll put forth some "food for thought" here....


Thanks Coyote, for a very informative post. It was indeed food for thought.


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings?
> 
> Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
> Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.
> 
> 
> 
> You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:
> 
> Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.
> 
> Here is a case where expert testimony was used:
> 
> http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf
> 
> Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.
> 
> Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate
> 
> I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you missed the part again where I said I was talking about viciousness in dogs not aggression, which occurs naturally in all dogs.
> 
> Your second link is sponsored by a lawyer specializing in suing people bitten by dogs  looking to drum up business for his practice.
> 
> *Meet your host:*
> 
> 
> 
> Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog.         His clients include children and adults throughout the United States.
> Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some expert witness you have there, Rabid Ravi.
> 
> I disagree with you third source's opinion that pit bulls should be singled out for laws making breeding them illegal. There was no convincing evidence present as to why. Just a lot of fear mongering imagery.
> 
> Until you can produce something credible, I'll continue with putting my confidence in the Center for Disease Control, medical and veterinary associations and SPA's which have all denounced breed specific laws as being based on fallacious assumptions and conterproductive to the effort to reduce violent encounters between dogs and humans.
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised you didn't read about the lawsuit and the evidence presented therein.

btw

vicious


*4 a* *:* dangerously aggressive *:* savage <a vicious dog>


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. They have the reputation because they are aggressive and many of those that own them cannot control them. Plus that little troubling fact that they have more brute strength and determination to finish the kill than many other breeds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can have a fairly high prey drive and they can have a high degree of dog-to-dog aggression, but that is not much worse then a number of other breeds.  If you're talking about aggression towards humans - there are breeds with a greater reputation for that but the media doesn't bother with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That could be true...but perhaps they aren't bothered with because they are more uncommon.
> 
> 
> Thanks for not bringing up Angie's usual silliness about attack tea cup dogs.
> 
> And Angie, you're insane if you think dogs can't be bred to be aggressive.
Click to expand...


I think things need to be kept in perspective which a lot of time is lost when people start discussing pitbulls.

First off - fatal dog attacks are RARE, though you wouldn't know it to listen to the popular media.  A report on fatal dog attacks showed that in the 20 years between 1979 and 1998,  a total of 238 fatal dog attacks occurred and a 25 different breeds of dogs were implicated. While Pitbulls led the list in terms of numbers - you are still talking about a statistically tiny number of incidents, certainly not enough to warrent the hysteria over certain breeds.

The report drew the following conclusionsAlthough fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers), other breeds may bite and cause fatalities at higher rates. Because of difficulties inherent in determining a dogs breed with certainty, enforcement of breed-specific ordinances raises constitutional and practical issues. Fatal attacks represent a small proportion of dog bite injuries to humans and, therefore, should not be the primary factor driving public policy concerning dangerous dogs. Many practical alternatives to breed-specific ordinances exist and hold promise for prevention of dog bites. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000;217:836840


Now this group produced another report which on the surface sounds more damning but reading it, it raises questions of methodology.  I strongly question their breed identification - most mix breeds are hard to identify and pretty often people don't even identify pitbulls accurately and pet owners are often guessing on mixes.  It claims: _this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets._  Animal control officers, while well meaning run the spectrun in terms of accuracy in identifying breed - I know that from personal experience dealing with them on rescue dogs.

The report implicates pitbulls in 1110 indidents involving "bodily harm" a term which included maimings.  Out of that 102 fatalaties between 1982 and 2006 and 608 maimings (defined as permanent disfigurement or loss of limb).  That's over a period of 24 years - you're still looking at very small numbers of approximately 4 fatalities a year and 10 maimings a year nationwide.  A total of 264 deaths over that time by all breeds combined were reported and 1323 maimings meaning a little over 1/3 of fatalities and a little under one half maimings were by pitbulls.  Still, very small numbers when you look at overall dog populations in the country and the estimate of approximately 5 million pitbulls kept as pets.

It's a given that a big and powerfull dog is going to do a lot more damage but the numbers give no support to the contention that Pitbulls are more aggressive, more likely to "snap' or any other media-driven hysterical conclusions being drawn.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:
> 
> Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.
> 
> Here is a case where expert testimony was used:
> 
> http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf
> 
> Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.
> 
> Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate
> 
> I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you missed the part again where I said I was talking about viciousness in dogs not aggression, which occurs naturally in all dogs.
> 
> Your second link is sponsored by a lawyer specializing in suing people bitten by dogs  looking to drum up business for his practice.
> 
> *Meet your host:*
> 
> 
> 
> Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog.         His clients include children and adults throughout the United States.
> Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some expert witness you have there, Rabid Ravi.
> 
> I disagree with you third source's opinion that pit bulls should be singled out for laws making breeding them illegal. There was no convincing evidence present as to why. Just a lot of fear mongering imagery.
> 
> Until you can produce something credible, I'll continue with putting my confidence in the Center for Disease Control, medical and veterinary associations and SPA's which have all denounced breed specific laws as being based on fallacious assumptions and conterproductive to the effort to reduce violent encounters between dogs and humans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not surprised you didn't read about the lawsuit and the evidence presented therein.
> 
> btw
> 
> vicious
> 
> 
> *4 a* *:* dangerously aggressive *:* savage <a vicious dog>
Click to expand...

The website presents quite a lot of evidence and links to evidence for why breed specific laws are ineffectual. I'm surprised you would even think it helps your case.


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll put forth some "food for thought" here....
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Coyote, for a very informative post. It was indeed food for thought.
Click to expand...


You're welcome...as you can guess, dog behavior and evolution is one of my passions   I am always wanting to learn more about it!


----------



## Coyote

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1886311 said:
			
		

> ...............
> 
> Further information: Incarceration in the United  States
> The racial composition of the US prison and jail population as of  2008 was 33.44% White American (non-Hispanic), 40.21% African American  (non-Hispanic), 20.29% Hispanic, and 6.06% Other (American Indian,  Alaska Native, Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander  American, and Multiracial American).[9]
> (stats show that blacks are most oft killed by blacks)



I'm not sure what your point is.....

that genetics causes crime??? (if so that is a gross over simplification of crime and incarceration statistics - correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation)

that humans exhibit as much physically diverse morphology as dogs....?

That doesn't add up - thus far there is nothing as extreme as:


----------



## dateLess

My female Six turned a year old the first of January.  I have three other dogs.  Six is pitbull the others are shar pei chow mix.   I really just dont trust any dog around kids.  As far as pitbulls I feel its how your raise them.  People make their dogs mean.  I dont allow kids over my house.  Because my dogs are not use to being around kids.    Kids are just as unpredictable as pitbulls or any dog.  I know my dogs are good with adults.  And for some reason my dogs do not like you.  I ask you to leave.  Been several times a chic brings a chic over for me to meet.  And my dogs dont like her.  I ask her to leave.  Or a person my dogs cant be easy with same thing I ask them to leave.  I know from experience with my dogs.  Its only takes about five minutes for me to know.


On another note some years ago.  I had different pitbull (blind) and six of my other dogs.  Mauled a friend of mine.  Had meat hanging out of his arm.  Fist size bite marks all over his body.  He knew I had dogs.  Been few years since he paid visit was not aware how many I had.  So he thought it would be ok to jump a locked posted no trepassing gate.


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.
> 
> Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs.  People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.
> 
> 
> 
> How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings?
> 
> Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
> Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:
> 
> Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately it isn't so simple - the domestication of dogs took a very very long time and was really pretty much accidental in beginning.  It is highly unlikely it resulted from humans capturing wolf pups and "taming" them.  If you've ever raised a wild animal from infancy even - you would quickly find it retains all it's wild instincts, even under the appearance of "tameness" - it is not very domestic.  They are nervous, high strung, not very social to people except maybe a select few.  Even raising generations does not always significantly reduce that.  I have a friend who "farms" deer.  Her deer have been "domestic" for multiple generations.  However to keep them from becoming feral she has to hand raise every fawn - take it from the mother and raise it.  If she doesn't, she can not handle it as an adult and even then, they are still high strung and easily damage themselves.  Wolves are very similar - "tamed" wolves, even those raised around humans for generations are always bottle raised and never act really like dogs - they are shy, not protective, don't bark and are strictly heirarchical).  When you think about primitive people and the sort of life they would have led - there is no rational reason why they would have invested time and scarce resources raising a wild animal (a competing carnivore even) for the length of time needed to create a truely domestic animal.  The most likely scenario for domestication is those wolves with less fear hanging around scavanging.  Look at the modern day equivelents - coyotes, pigeons....and how unafraid some of them have become.  Easy to see how that leads to domestication.



> Here is a case where expert testimony was used:
> 
> http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf
> 
> Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.
> 
> Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate
> 
> I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.



You can deliberately breed for increased aggression but aggression itself is hard to define and can be a result of a number of traits.  Some dogs have a very high level of arousal and a short trigger - and I imagine that is what you are referring to and that is what street thugs are probably looking for but there are two factors to consider - any breed can be bred for those characteristics, some more easily then others and, given the total number of pits in this country and the drop-in-the-bucket number of attacks and fatalities....there can't be many people doing that, certainly not enough to justify ineffective breed ban legislation.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> You can deliberately breed for increased aggression but aggression itself is hard to define and can be a result of a number of traits.  Some dogs have a very high level of arousal and a short trigger - and I imagine that is what you are referring to and that is what street thugs are probably looking for but there are two factors to consider - any breed can be bred for those characteristics, some more easily then others and, given the total number of pits in this country and the drop-in-the-bucket number of attacks and fatalities....there can't be many people doing that, certainly not enough to justify ineffective breed ban legislation.


The extraordinary thing about dogs of any breed is how remarkably flexible they are. The rehabilitation rate for vicious dogs is much higher than that for human beings.


----------



## Luissa

American Horse said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa, that looks exactly like a picture of my Staffy/PB.  There's only one thing wrong; the cat would be limp.
> 
> After my son found her chained in the basement of an abandoned rental, he brought her home and made her our family pet.  She was as gentle as she could be but it was in her nature to despise small creatures.  We installed a 100 foot long line which she could travel along and 15' on both sides.  Then I put a chain link fence around about an acre so she could have free rein there.  Son loved her but was too busy to walk her as much as she needed.  I began to walk her every night for about an hour.  They absolutely do need that kind of care, and attention.  At the time we had 40-acres but that wasn't enough that cats wouldn't enter her domain.
> 
> They are naturally a loving breed, which desperately needs human interaction, and as fond as we all were of ours, I believe the breeding of them should be discouraged because of the way people who will own them will tend to them.  I think the insurance requirements for PBs (as well as other breeds) actually discourages more responsible people from becoming owners
Click to expand...

Marley was a very loving dog, that cat even used to suck on her nipples. She was also a big baby and would cry often. She was my brother's dog but she pretty much lived with us for awhile. I remember one time when I was dog sitting, I woke up sleeping on her(she probably got up on the bed for that reason). My brother was a responsible owner but she could be scary at times, just because her head and mouth are so big, and I have seen her eat a hamburger in one bite.


----------



## Anguille

The poll shows that people have smartened up about breed specific laws.


----------



## manifold

I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter. 


Nothing could be more ignorant.

As always, both nature AND nurture matter.  And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.

When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite.  When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.

Big difference.


----------



## PLYMCO_PILGRIM

Ravi said:


> Thoughts?



There is no more of a problem bringing a Pitt Bull around people than any other large dog.

The problem arises from abusive owners of ANY DOG.  It doesn't have to be a pit bull.

Do you know what dog breed, In the USA, is the one that bites people and breaks the skin most often?    If not I will tell


----------



## PLYMCO_PILGRIM

manifold said:


> I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter.
> 
> 
> Nothing could be more ignorant.
> 
> As always, both nature AND nurture matter.  And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.
> 
> When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite.  When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.
> 
> Big difference.



Figures the post right above mine  

That is a good point that a Pit has MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger bite than most dogs.


----------



## xotoxi

Ravi said:


> Is it fair to have pit bulls around other people?


 
By "other people", are you referring to cops?

If so, then no. It's not fair to the pitbulls, as they are liable to get tased.


----------



## Coyote

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no more of a problem bringing a Pitt Bull around people than any other large dog.
> 
> The problem arises from abusive owners of ANY DOG.  It doesn't have to be a pit bull.
> 
> Do you know what dog breed, In the USA, is the one that bites people and breaks the skin most often?    If not I will tell
Click to expand...


Dachsund!


----------



## manifold

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> That is a good point that a Pit has MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger bite than most dogs.




Exactly.

Most people do not understand that when accounting for risk, you can't ONLY consider the probability of a bad thing happening, but must also consider the amount of damage that will occur if it does.

When you consider BOTH, the risk associated with pit bulls dwarfs all other breeds.

true story.


----------



## Bfgrn

RetiredGySgt said:


> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.



It does depend on the dog ...most dogs run away from what they fear, pit bulls attack what they fear...


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter.
> 
> 
> Nothing could be more ignorant.
> 
> As always, both nature AND nurture matter.  And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.
> 
> When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite.  When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.
> 
> Big difference.




Not necessarily - any large and strong dog, including a retriever can inflict a tremendously damaging bite if it doesn't have bite inhibition and that is something a dog learns through socialization with other puppies and from people.

Ever seen what the family retriever can do to a sheep?


----------



## Coyote

Bfgrn said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does depend on the dog ...most dogs run away from what they fear, pit bulls attack what they fear...
Click to expand...


Not at all true.  How the dog reacts depends very much on the individual dog and it's flight/fight response - to some extent that is breed influenced, but it is also very much matter of how the dog was raised.

Just as an example many of Vick's dogs were very undersocialized and abused, and scared to death of new things and people - this fear showed itself as the dog shutting down, running away and avoidance not "attacking".


----------



## manifold

Coyote said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter.
> 
> 
> Nothing could be more ignorant.
> 
> As always, both nature AND nurture matter.  And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.
> 
> When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite.  When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.
> 
> Big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily - any large and strong dog, including a retriever can inflict a tremendously damaging bite if it doesn't have bite inhibition and that is something a dog learns through socialization with other puppies and from people.
> 
> Ever seen what the family retriever can do to a sheep?
Click to expand...



Still doesn't compare with the jaw strength of a pit bull.

Why do you think all dog fighting dogs are pits?  Because they'd rip the throat out of a retreiver in new york minute, that's why.


----------



## xotoxi

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> Do you know what dog breed, In the USA, is the one that bites people and breaks the skin most often? If not I will tell


 
The saber-toothed shih tzu?


----------



## manifold

Someone could find a wolf pup or a grizzley cub and raise it to be a well adjusted and friendly family pet.

It doesn't make it a good idea.


----------



## PLYMCO_PILGRIM

The golden retreiver, due to the sheer popularity of them, are the dog that bites people the most.

Now FATAL attacks on humans is a different story.....rotweillers and pitbulls swap the #1 position for fatal attacks every few years.

DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere


----------



## AmericasBrave58

Ravi said:


> Thoughts?



 It greatly depends on the person or people in question. My brother use to raise Pit Bulls, from puppies, and they turned out to be the most lovable animals. And it also depends on the person having this type of dog, and their purpose of owning one. Pit bulls are very High strung, and it takes a special person to deal with them. It also takes a lot of love and patients to handle a pit bull. I am a part-time worker as a Vet-Tech, here in Washington State, and a life time member  and guardian of the ASPCA, and King Country Humane Society. I have a degree in Animal Science. people could say the same thing about Dobermans, but it takes a special person to care for the likes of Dobermans and Pit Bulls.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Bfgrn said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does depend on the dog ...most dogs run away from what they fear, pit bulls attack what they fear...
Click to expand...

Give them bacon and they'll love you...


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good point that a Pit has MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger bite than most dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> Most people do not understand that when accounting for risk, you can't ONLY consider the probability of a bad thing happening, but must also consider the amount of damage that will occur if it does.
> 
> When you consider BOTH, the risk associated with pit bulls dwarfs all other breeds.
> 
> true story.
Click to expand...

You are such a bullshit artist.


----------



## Anguille

Bfgrn said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does depend on the dog ...most dogs run away from what they fear, pit bulls attack what they fear...
Click to expand...

Got any proof for that bit of nonsense?


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter.
> 
> 
> Nothing could be more ignorant.
> 
> As always, both nature AND nurture matter.  And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.
> 
> When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite.  When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.
> 
> Big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily - any large and strong dog, including a retriever can inflict a tremendously damaging bite if it doesn't have bite inhibition and that is something a dog learns through socialization with other puppies and from people.
> 
> Ever seen what the family retriever can do to a sheep?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Still doesn't compare with the jaw strength of a pit bull.
> 
> Why do you think all dog fighting dogs are pits?  Because they'd rip the throat out of a retreiver in new york minute, that's why.
Click to expand...

Pit bulls are not the only type of dog used for dog fighting. They just happen to be the most popular one these days and the ones most reported on in the press because we all know hysteria sells newspapers.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Someone could find a wolf pup or a grizzley cub and raise it to be a well adjusted and friendly family pet.
> 
> It doesn't make it a good idea.


Wolves and Grizzly bears are not domesticated animals. No comparison.


----------



## Anguille

xotoxi said:


> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what dog breed, In the USA, is the one that bites people and breaks the skin most often? If not I will tell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saber-toothed shih tzu?
Click to expand...

_The most horrifying example of              the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old              baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight              of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a              dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs!              The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle              prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling              the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family                Dog,"

 Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition,              Metro Section, Page B-5.)        _

DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

I've known someone who had wolves as a pet.

Of course, not long after it got out we had a bunch of half-wolf puppies on the way all around the damned neighborhood.


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter.
> 
> 
> Nothing could be more ignorant.
> 
> As always, both nature AND nurture matter.  And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.
> 
> When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite.  When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.
> 
> Big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily - any large and strong dog, including a retriever can inflict a tremendously damaging bite if it doesn't have bite inhibition and that is something a dog learns through socialization with other puppies and from people.
> 
> Ever seen what the family retriever can do to a sheep?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Still doesn't compare with the jaw strength of a pit bull.
> 
> Why do you think all dog fighting dogs are pits?  Because they'd rip the throat out of a retreiver in new york minute, that's why.
Click to expand...


Just because a dog like a pitbull can inflict a seriously damaging bite does not diminish the damage any large powerful breed of dog can do when it bites.

Do a bit of research before you make statements like "all fighting dogs are pits".  There are a number of breeds bred for fighting and bred for attacking and killing things.  Many terriers fall into that category and, there are many pits who's heritage is far removed from fighting and are quite sociable with other dogs.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does depend on the dog ...most dogs run away from what they fear, pit bulls attack what they fear...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not at all true.  How the dog reacts depends very much on the individual dog and it's flight/fight response - to some extent that is breed influenced, but it is also very much matter of how the dog was raised.
> 
> Just as an example many of Vick's dogs were very undersocialized and abused, and scared to death of new things and people - this fear showed itself as the dog shutting down, running away and avoidance not "attacking".
Click to expand...

Coyote, You've written some very informative and well researched posts in this thread. Apparently some people have neglected to read them and persist in spreading wives tales about dogs.  I think this says more about these people than it does about dogs.


----------



## Anguille

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> The golden retreiver, due to the sheer popularity of them, are the dog that bites people the most.
> 
> Now FATAL attacks on humans is a different story.....rotweillers and pitbulls swap the #1 position for fatal attacks every few years.
> 
> DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere


In terms of fatal attacks, the number of those resulting from all dogs of any breed is minuscule. Fatal attacks from humans far out number those from dogs.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Mrs. Kravitz said:


> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The golden retreiver, due to the sheer popularity of them, are the dog that bites people the most.
> 
> Now FATAL attacks on humans is a different story.....rotweillers and pitbulls swap the #1 position for fatal attacks every few years.
> 
> DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of fatal attacks, the number of those resulting from all dogs of any breed is minuscule. Fatal attacks from humans far out number those from dogs.
Click to expand...

How do you feel about laws regarding violent breeds of humans?


----------



## Coyote

Mrs. Kravitz said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does depend on the dog ...most dogs run away from what they fear, pit bulls attack what they fear...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all true.  How the dog reacts depends very much on the individual dog and it's flight/fight response - to some extent that is breed influenced, but it is also very much matter of how the dog was raised.
> 
> Just as an example many of Vick's dogs were very undersocialized and abused, and scared to death of new things and people - this fear showed itself as the dog shutting down, running away and avoidance not "attacking".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Coyote, You've written some very informative and well researched posts in this thread. Apparently some people have neglected to read them and persist in spreading wives tales about dogs.  I think this says more about these people than it does about dogs.
Click to expand...


Thank you Mrs. K   Sadly, I think you are right.

It would also appear to be that those people looking at assessing risk might not have a good grasp of numbers.

With a population of something around 5 million pitbulls, you would expect the streets of this country to be flowing with blood and gobbets and dismembered body parts and people staggering around with huge holes and punctures and missing bits and pieces and....

Yet, according to a report I previously linked to, it comes down to

4 Pitbull fatalities a year.
10 maimings a year.
Out of 5 million pitbulls.

Now, for comparison, lets look at automobiles.

There are more than six million car accidents each year in the United States. 
A person dies in a car accident every 12 minutes and each year car crashes kill 40,000 people. 
The leading cause of death for individuals between 2 and 34 years old is motor vehicle crashes. 
Someone is injured by a car crash every 14 seconds and about two million of the people injured in car accidents each year suffer permanent injuries. 

Out of approx 254.4 million cars in the U.S. (as of 2007)



Mrs. K....this brings up a very important question.....









Should cars should be allowed around people?


----------



## Coyote

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1900651 said:
			
		

> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The golden retreiver, due to the sheer popularity of them, are the dog that bites people the most.
> 
> Now FATAL attacks on humans is a different story.....rotweillers and pitbulls swap the #1 position for fatal attacks every few years.
> 
> DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of fatal attacks, the number of those resulting from all dogs of any breed is minuscule. Fatal attacks from humans far out number those from dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you feel about laws regarding violent breeds of humans?
Click to expand...


Well...since most serial killers are white....and I'm white....I wouldn't feel real good about it.


----------



## Ravi

manifold said:


> Someone could find a wolf pup or a grizzley cub and raise it to be a well adjusted and friendly family pet.
> 
> It doesn't make it a good idea.


 I remember reading about some idiot in Coconut Grove that had an alligator as a pet. Never killed him, lived in a pit in his living room...but as far as I know he never took him out on a leash.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Coyote said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1900651 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of fatal attacks, the number of those resulting from all dogs of any breed is minuscule. Fatal attacks from humans far out number those from dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feel about laws regarding violent breeds of humans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well...since most serial killers are white....and I'm white....I wouldn't feel real good about it.
Click to expand...



Most murderers are black.

The only reason most serial killers are white is because blacks aren't smart enough to evade detection for the same thing, although many of them do commit serial homicide, especially when they have access to crack and form gangs to feed their drug habits.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all true.  How the dog reacts depends very much on the individual dog and it's flight/fight response - to some extent that is breed influenced, but it is also very much matter of how the dog was raised.
> 
> Just as an example many of Vick's dogs were very undersocialized and abused, and scared to death of new things and people - this fear showed itself as the dog shutting down, running away and avoidance not "attacking".
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote, You've written some very informative and well researched posts in this thread. Apparently some people have neglected to read them and persist in spreading wives tales about dogs.  I think this says more about these people than it does about dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you Mrs. K   Sadly, I think you are right.
> 
> It would also appear to be that those people looking at assessing risk might not have a good grasp of numbers.
> 
> With a population of something around 5 million pitbulls, you would expect the streets of this country to be flowing with blood and gobbets and dismembered body parts and people staggering around with huge holes and punctures and missing bits and pieces and....
> 
> Yet, according to a report I previously linked to, it comes down to
> 
> 4 Pitbull fatalities a year.
> 10 maimings a year.
> Out of 5 million pitbulls.
> 
> Now, for comparison, lets look at automobiles.
> 
> There are more than six million car accidents each year in the United States.
> A person dies in a car accident every 12 minutes and each year car crashes kill 40,000 people.
> The leading cause of death for individuals between 2 and 34 years old is motor vehicle crashes.
> Someone is injured by a car crash every 14 seconds and about two million of the people injured in car accidents each year suffer permanent injuries.
> 
> Out of approx 254.4 million cars in the U.S. (as of 2007)
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. K....this brings up a very important question.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should cars should be allowed around people?
Click to expand...


Should people even be allowed around people?

You've got it right about some people's inability to access risk. They base their opinions not on facts and numbers but on emotions and a need to scapegoat.

 The sad thing is that not only do they call for unnecessary laws, their fear mongering about pit bulls actually increases the risk of danger from any dog with their foolish claims that certain breeds are totally trustworthy while others are evil. They want to ignore that the way a dog is raised and cared for is the major indicator by far in how safe it will be around other dogs and humans. 
Their spreading of misinformation is a disservice to the public.


----------



## Coyote

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1900743 said:
			
		

> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1900651 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feel about laws regarding violent breeds of humans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...since most serial killers are white....and I'm white....I wouldn't feel real good about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Most murderers are black.
> 
> The only reason most serial killers are white is because blacks aren't smart enough to evade detection for the same thing, although many of them do commit serial homicide, especially when they have access to crack and form gangs to feed their drug habits.
Click to expand...


Look at it this way (using your sort of logic).

Mauling dog attacks on humans are the worst type of fatal dog-crime.
Pitbulls make up the bulk of those attacks
Therefore we need laws regarding "violent" breeds of dog.

Serial killers make up the worst type of fatal human-crime.
White males make up the bulk of those attacks.
Therefore we need laws regarding "violent" breeds of dog.

But it gets even better....

Just as it's difficult to define "pitbull" (a category that encompasses a dozen or so different breeds) it is difficult to define "race".

What is black and what is white?  Originally the definition was political, not scientific.

What are mixed race people?

In addition, dogs have long been *selectively *bred for purposes that shaped not only their bodies but their temperment characteristics.

Humans have not been subject to that sort of selection.

and...if that weren't enough (I'm throwing in the Ginzu knives here) - look at violent crime stats around the world.

The country with the lowest murder rate?  Senegal (west Africa) 0.33, also low are Morocco, Mali and Mauratania (lower than the expected Scandinavian countries and of course lower than the US).  Now, the laws defining murder and homicide differ, and the conclusions drawn from difficult to compare data aren't always accurate and leave a lot unsaid, but what the hey...that pretty much is what this entire debate is about.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

I'm not the one advocating breed-specific laws, twit.

Also, no meaningful numbers come from Africa. There's no real law or civilization in the continent.


----------



## Coyote

Mrs. Kravitz said:


> Should people even be allowed around people?
> 
> You've got it right about some people's inability to access risk. They base their opinions not on facts and numbers but on emotions and a need to scapegoat.
> 
> The sad thing is that not only do they call for unnecessary laws, their fear mongering about pit bulls actually increases the risk of danger from any dog with their foolish claims that certain breeds are totally trustworthy while others are evil. They want to ignore that the way a dog is raised and cared for is the major indicator by far in how safe it will be around other dogs and humans.
> Their spreading of misinformation is a disservice to the public.



Yup - because that sort of legislation does nothing to really address dangerous dogs and stupid people who willfully create aggression.  This year it's Pitbulls, next year it will be Canis Panther ...


----------



## manifold

Mrs. Kravitz said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone could find a wolf pup or a grizzley cub and raise it to be a well adjusted and friendly family pet.
> 
> It doesn't make it a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Wolves and Grizzly bears are not domesticated animals. No comparison.
Click to expand...


Bullshit.

Dogs once weren't domesticated either.  Do you know how they became domesticated?

I bet you do.  It's called BREEDING.

Now tell me again how breeding doesn't matter.


----------



## hjmick

Depends on the pitbull. And the owner.


----------



## manifold

Coyote said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily - any large and strong dog, including a retriever can inflict a tremendously damaging bite if it doesn't have bite inhibition and that is something a dog learns through socialization with other puppies and from people.
> 
> Ever seen what the family retriever can do to a sheep?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still doesn't compare with the jaw strength of a pit bull.
> 
> Why do you think all dog fighting dogs are pits?  Because they'd rip the throat out of a retreiver in new york minute, that's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just because a dog like a pitbull can inflict a seriously damaging bite does not diminish the damage any large powerful breed of dog can do when it bites.
> 
> Do a bit of research before you make statements like "all fighting dogs are pits".  There are a number of breeds bred for fighting and bred for attacking and killing things.  Many terriers fall into that category and, there are many pits who's heritage is far removed from fighting and are quite sociable with other dogs.
Click to expand...


Tell me again how many of Vick's dogs weren't pit bulls? 


Oh yeah, none.


----------



## manifold

I saw a special about dog breeding a little while ago that was pretty interesting.  Nothing specific about pit bulls, it was mostly about drug and bomb sniffing dogs. Basically what they said is that the canine genetic code is unique in the animal kingdom in how easily manipulated it is.  It only takes 2 or 3 generations to geneticaly engineer pretty much exactly what you're looking for.

Yet there are still those who insist that breeding doesn't matter.


----------



## ron scott

Pit bulls are nice dogs, nice to kill you with!!

dogs are animals and animals don't think like people

dogs are a big swept under the carpet issue

if you get bit, then it's an issue, then people learn, and pay!! should pay!

I quit my last job because of dogs, never had much problem with little dogs, of course.

I was doing deliveries and ran into too many loose dogs, people are often too careless with their dogs. I was lucky and always managed to get back in the truck in time or have a big enough package to put between me and the dog. But after a few months of that i seen the writing on the wall and quit.
 The company I worked for had no policy to deal with the problem either, I guess they would rather lose a driver than lose a customer. And a lot of the dog owners were quite cavalier about the whole thing, they may have even been secretly enjoying watching their dog scare the hell out of someone. never had time for mace, besides the company didn't want a lawsuit because I sprayed mace at someones dog, but I carried it anyway. But when an incident arose I first high tailed it!! 

LOL.......... dogs! of course it's not the dogs fault, it's the owner (watch: dog whisperer) and their should be stiffer fines or something!! because some dogs Are deadly weapons!


----------



## uscitizen

The law should be crystal clear.  Dog owners are fully responsible for their pets actions and it should be handled by the system without the aggreived party having to get a lawyer and file suit.

Present bills to the police and the pet owner pays, goes to jail or fights it in criminal court.
Since the dog obviously commited a crime or there would be no issue.

Homeowners ins should cover all dogs but only if the ins co was notified of the dog.  And insurance rates should be based on risk.  ie breed and number of dogs.
Size and breed are factors in how much damage a dog can do.


----------



## Anguille

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1900849 said:
			
		

> I'm not the one advocating breed-specific laws, twit.
> 
> Also, no meaningful numbers come from Africa. There's no real law or civilization in the continent.


Yet you, and those advocating for breed specific laws are operating on the same principal.


----------



## PLYMCO_PILGRIM

I have a grand Idea.

If the breed is legal and you think it is dangerous dont go near the dog.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should people even be allowed around people?
> 
> You've got it right about some people's inability to access risk. They base their opinions not on facts and numbers but on emotions and a need to scapegoat.
> 
> The sad thing is that not only do they call for unnecessary laws, their fear mongering about pit bulls actually increases the risk of danger from any dog with their foolish claims that certain breeds are totally trustworthy while others are evil. They want to ignore that the way a dog is raised and cared for is the major indicator by far in how safe it will be around other dogs and humans.
> Their spreading of misinformation is a disservice to the public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup - because that sort of legislation does nothing to really address dangerous dogs and stupid people who willfully create aggression.  This year it's Pitbulls, next year it will be Canis Panther ...
Click to expand...

It's sickening the perverted things some people will do to dogs in order to use them as weapons. And discouraging how stupid some people are to hate and falsely label an entire breed because that breed is currently popular with animal abusers.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone could find a wolf pup or a grizzley cub and raise it to be a well adjusted and friendly family pet.
> 
> It doesn't make it a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Wolves and Grizzly bears are not domesticated animals. No comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Dogs once weren't domesticated either.  Do you know how they became domesticated?
> 
> I bet you do.  It's called BREEDING.
> 
> Now tell me again how breeding doesn't matter.
Click to expand...


Wrong. They became domesticated through evolution. I suppose you believe in Intelligent Design as well.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doesn't compare with the jaw strength of a pit bull.
> 
> Why do you think all dog fighting dogs are pits?  Because they'd rip the throat out of a retreiver in new york minute, that's why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because a dog like a pitbull can inflict a seriously damaging bite does not diminish the damage any large powerful breed of dog can do when it bites.
> 
> Do a bit of research before you make statements like "all fighting dogs are pits".  There are a number of breeds bred for fighting and bred for attacking and killing things.  Many terriers fall into that category and, there are many pits who's heritage is far removed from fighting and are quite sociable with other dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell me again how many of Vick's dogs weren't pit bulls?
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, none.
Click to expand...

Since almost all of Vick's dogs were rehabilitated and adopted as family pets, epic fail on your part.

Define pit bull. How do you determine what dogs are pit bulls and which aren't? If you're going to have breed specific laws you have to be able to be specific about what a pit bull is. How does law enforcement prove a certain dog is a pit bull. Many types of dogs share similar characteristics to the so-called pit bull.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> . Basically what they said is that the canine genetic code is unique in the animal kingdom in how easily manipulated it is.  It only takes 2 or 3 generations to geneticaly engineer pretty much exactly what you're looking for.


When you have created a dachshund from Great Dane grandparents get back to us.


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wolves and Grizzly bears are not domesticated animals. No comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Dogs once weren't domesticated either.  Do you know how they became domesticated?
> 
> I bet you do.  It's called BREEDING.
> 
> Now tell me again how breeding doesn't matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong. They became domesticated through evolution. I suppose you believe in Intelligent Design as well.
Click to expand...


Yeah, they just naturally evolved to serve humans. 

Where do you come up with this shit?


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because a dog like a pitbull can inflict a seriously damaging bite does not diminish the damage any large powerful breed of dog can do when it bites.
> 
> Do a bit of research before you make statements like "all fighting dogs are pits".  There are a number of breeds bred for fighting and bred for attacking and killing things.  Many terriers fall into that category and, there are many pits who's heritage is far removed from fighting and are quite sociable with other dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me again how many of Vick's dogs weren't pit bulls?
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, none.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since almost all of Vick's dogs were rehabilitated and adopted as family pets, epic fail on your part.
> 
> Define pit bull. How do you determine what dogs are pit bulls and which aren't? If you're going to have breed specific laws you have to be able to be specific about what a pit bull is. How does law enforcement prove a certain dog is a pit bull. Many types of dogs share similar characteristics to the so-called pit bull.
Click to expand...


"Family" pets my ass. 

At least not families with kids anyway.

And Pit bulls are like racism and pornography... I know one when I see one.


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Basically what they said is that the canine genetic code is unique in the animal kingdom in how easily manipulated it is.  It only takes 2 or 3 generations to geneticaly engineer pretty much exactly what you're looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> When you have created a dachshund from Great Dane grandparents get back to us.
Click to expand...


Strawman fail.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Dogs once weren't domesticated either.  Do you know how they became domesticated?
> 
> I bet you do.  It's called BREEDING.
> 
> Now tell me again how breeding doesn't matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. They became domesticated through evolution. I suppose you believe in Intelligent Design as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, they just naturally evolved to serve humans.
> 
> Where do you come up with this shit?
Click to expand...

I bother to educate myself on subjects before blowing hot air like you do.


_The bulk of the scientific evidence for the evolution of the domestic dog stems from archaeological findings and mitochondrial DNA studies. The divergence date of roughly 15000 years ago is based in part on archaeological evidence that demonstrates that the domestication of dogs occurred more than 15,000 years ago,[3][18] and some genetic evidence indicates that the domestication of dogs from their wolf ancestors began in the late Upper Paleolithic close to the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary, between 17,000 and 14,000 years ago.[22] But there is a wide range of other, contradictory findings that make this issue controversial.
 Archaeological evidence plays a large role in this debate. In 2008, a team of international scientists released findings from an excavation at Goyet Cave in Belgium declaring that a large, toothy canine existed 31,700 years ago and ate a diet of horse, musk ox and reindeer.[23] Prior to this Belgium discovery, the earliest dog fossils were two large skulls from Russia and a mandible[3][21] Remains of smaller dogs from Natufian cave deposits in the Middle East, including the earliest burial of a human being with a domestic dog, have been dated to around 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.[21][24] There is a great deal of archaeological evidence for dogs throughout Europe and Asia around this period and through the next two thousand years (roughly 8,000 to 10,000 years ago), with fossils uncovered in Germany, the French Alps, and Iraq, and cave paintings in Turkey.[3]_ from Germany, that dated from roughly 14,000 years ago.
Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Anguille

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> I have a grand Idea.
> 
> If the breed is legal and you think it is dangerous dont go near the dog.


I think this thread is about making some breeds illegal. 
Pandering to those with phobias about certain breeds.


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. They became domesticated through evolution. I suppose you believe in Intelligent Design as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, they just naturally evolved to serve humans.
> 
> Where do you come up with this shit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I bother to educate myself on subjects before blowing hot air like you do.
> 
> 
> _The bulk of the scientific evidence for the evolution of the domestic dog stems from archaeological findings and mitochondrial DNA studies. The divergence date of roughly 15000 years ago is based in part on archaeological evidence that demonstrates that the domestication of dogs occurred more than 15,000 years ago,[3][18] and some genetic evidence indicates that the domestication of dogs from their wolf ancestors began in the late Upper Paleolithic close to the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary, between 17,000 and 14,000 years ago.[22] But there is a wide range of other, contradictory findings that make this issue controversial.
> Archaeological evidence plays a large role in this debate. In 2008, a team of international scientists released findings from an excavation at Goyet Cave in Belgium declaring that a large, toothy canine existed 31,700 years ago and ate a diet of horse, musk ox and reindeer.[23] Prior to this Belgium discovery, the earliest dog fossils were two large skulls from Russia and a mandible[3][21] Remains of smaller dogs from Natufian cave deposits in the Middle East, including the earliest burial of a human being with a domestic dog, have been dated to around 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.[21][24] There is a great deal of archaeological evidence for dogs throughout Europe and Asia around this period and through the next two thousand years (roughly 8,000 to 10,000 years ago), with fossils uncovered in Germany, the French Alps, and Iraq, and cave paintings in Turkey.[3]_ from Germany, that dated from roughly 14,000 years ago.
> Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...



Your efforts to educate yourself are indeed commendable.  It's just too bad that you lack the ability to comprehend what you read.

Oh well. *shrug*


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me again how many of Vick's dogs weren't pit bulls?
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, none.
> 
> 
> 
> Since almost all of Vick's dogs were rehabilitated and adopted as family pets, epic fail on your part.
> 
> Define pit bull. How do you determine what dogs are pit bulls and which aren't? If you're going to have breed specific laws you have to be able to be specific about what a pit bull is. How does law enforcement prove a certain dog is a pit bull. Many types of dogs share similar characteristics to the so-called pit bull.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Family" pets my ass.
> 
> At least not families with kids anyway.
> 
> And Pit bulls are like racism and pornography... I know one when I see one.
Click to expand...

Yeah and stupid bitch wives.


----------



## Douger

RetiredGySgt said:


> It does not depend on the dog at all. It depends on how the dog was raised or trained. Pit Bulls are sweet dogs unless raised wrong. They wouldn't hurt a fly. There are exceptions. For example if you have a pit on a chain it is advisable to not let people approach it suddenly. The dog knows it is stuck and may react in a defensive manner if approached quickly or unexpectedly while on a chain.
> 
> What you feed the pit and how you treat it all help determine how it acts. Which is true of most any dog.



Hey. There is a first time for everything.
I fully agree with Sarge.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wolves and Grizzly bears are not domesticated animals. No comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Dogs once weren't domesticated either.  Do you know how they became domesticated?
> 
> I bet you do.  It's called BREEDING.
> 
> Now tell me again how breeding doesn't matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong. They became domesticated through evolution. I suppose you believe in Intelligent Design as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a grand Idea.
> 
> If the breed is legal and you think it is dangerous dont go near the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this thread is about making some breeds illegal.
> Pandering to those with phobias about certain breeds.
Click to expand...


I don't support making any breeds illegal.

But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.


----------



## Ravi

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> I have a grand Idea.
> 
> If the breed is legal and you think it is dangerous dont go near the dog.


That'd be fine except for the inconsiderate owners of pit bulls...for instance, my neighbor walks his flipping pink rat dog on a leash and often "accidentally" lets the pit loose.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a grand Idea.
> 
> If the breed is legal and you think it is dangerous dont go near the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this thread is about making some breeds illegal.
> Pandering to those with phobias about certain breeds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't support making any breeds illegal.
> 
> But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.
Click to expand...

So why are you going on and on about how pit bulls are the devil incarnate?

I am in favor of laws requiring muzzles for dogs that have demonstrated unprovoked and dangerously aggressive behavior to other dogs or humans. 

Dogs from fighting operations have been provoked. Also bait dogs from those operations should not be lumped in with the ones trained to fight.


I wish more owners would voluntarily chose to muzzle their dogs if the dogs have given indications they might bite someone. It's a safer option than thinking you can always keep hold of the leash or that some kid isn't going to taunt your dog while it's chained up.


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this thread is about making some breeds illegal.
> Pandering to those with phobias about certain breeds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support making any breeds illegal.
> 
> But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So why are you going on and on about how pit bulls are the devil incarnate?
> 
> I am in favor of laws requiring muzzles for dogs that have demonstrated unprovoked and dangerously aggressive behavior to other dogs or humans.
> 
> Dogs from fighting operations have been provoked. Also bait dogs from those operations should not be lumped in with the ones trained to fight.
> 
> 
> I wish more owners would voluntarily chose to muzzle their dogs if the dogs have given indications they might bite someone. It's a safer option than thinking you can always keep hold of the leash or that some kid isn't going to taunt your dog while it's chained up.
Click to expand...




Puh-leez!  On and on about devil incarnate my ass. 

A.  I like to antogonize. check!

B.  From a purely academic standpoint I disagree with what I consider to be a completely retarded premise... that breeding doesn't matter.


----------



## Anguille

Cows killed over 3 times as many people as pit bulls did in 2008.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support making any breeds illegal.
> 
> But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> So why are you going on and on about how pit bulls are the devil incarnate?
> 
> I am in favor of laws requiring muzzles for dogs that have demonstrated unprovoked and dangerously aggressive behavior to other dogs or humans.
> 
> Dogs from fighting operations have been provoked. Also bait dogs from those operations should not be lumped in with the ones trained to fight.
> 
> 
> I wish more owners would voluntarily chose to muzzle their dogs if the dogs have given indications they might bite someone. It's a safer option than thinking you can always keep hold of the leash or that some kid isn't going to taunt your dog while it's chained up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Puh-leez!  On and on about devil incarnate my ass.
> 
> A.  I like to antogonize. check!
> 
> B.  From a purely academic standpoint I disagree with what I consider to be a completely retarded premise... that breeding doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

Of course, breeding makes a difference. It just doesn't make a significant amount of difference to warrant breed specific laws or phobias either.


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> Cows killed over 3 times as many people as pit bulls did in 2008.



Link?


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why are you going on and on about how pit bulls are the devil incarnate?
> 
> I am in favor of laws requiring muzzles for dogs that have demonstrated unprovoked and dangerously aggressive behavior to other dogs or humans.
> 
> Dogs from fighting operations have been provoked. Also bait dogs from those operations should not be lumped in with the ones trained to fight.
> 
> 
> I wish more owners would voluntarily chose to muzzle their dogs if the dogs have given indications they might bite someone. It's a safer option than thinking you can always keep hold of the leash or that some kid isn't going to taunt your dog while it's chained up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Puh-leez!  On and on about devil incarnate my ass.
> 
> A.  I like to antogonize. check!
> 
> B.  From a purely academic standpoint I disagree with what I consider to be a completely retarded premise... that breeding doesn't matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course, breeding makes a difference. It just doesn't make a significant amount of difference to warrant breed specific laws or phobias either.
Click to expand...


When it comes to the amount of damage a dog can inflict if it snaps, IT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE.


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support making any breeds illegal.
> 
> But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> So why are you going on and on about how pit bulls are the devil incarnate?
> 
> I am in favor of laws requiring muzzles for dogs that have demonstrated unprovoked and dangerously aggressive behavior to other dogs or humans.
> 
> Dogs from fighting operations have been provoked. Also bait dogs from those operations should not be lumped in with the ones trained to fight.
> 
> 
> I wish more owners would voluntarily chose to muzzle their dogs if the dogs have given indications they might bite someone. It's a safer option than thinking you can always keep hold of the leash or that some kid isn't going to taunt your dog while it's chained up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Puh-leez!  On and on about devil incarnate my ass.
> 
> A.  I like to antogonize. check!
> 
> B.  From a purely academic standpoint I disagree with what I consider to be a completely retarded premise... that breeding doesn't matter.
Click to expand...


Ok.  I'll agree with you - breeding does matter.

But, if you truly believe that, than you would have to concede that where it matters is at the level of the individual dog.

If you don't breed a dog to a specific purpose for multiple generations, certain qualities get lost.  I know this is true with herding dogs - if you don't breed for work, you may retain some basic instincts such as a desire to want to control movement but you will lose the qualities that create that allow the dog to keep working in the face of pressure, keep stock grouped, hold them to a place or go long distances to find them.  I imagine that is also true in the various breeds called "pitbulls".  If you are not fighting them, you are not preserving that high level of dog-to-dog aggression, gameness and whatever other attributes go along with what makes a fighting dog.  The vast number "pitbulls" are bred primarily as pets and have been for many generations (a look at old pictures will show you that the pit was a popular family dog)...and it would explain why out of 5 million pits there are only a handfull (literally) of fatal attacks and maimings.

My biggest issue - along with those attempting to portray all pitbulls as a ticking time bomb is with the breeders.  Pitbull breeders need to get together and rescue their "breed".  They need to downplay the logging-chain/spike-collar/macho family protector image, select for the characteristics that make pitbulls great and select away from high levels of dog-to-dog aggression which has no place in world today.  They  need to group together and agree on codes of ethics and condemn the street-fighting-drug-thug breeders who are deliberately trying to breed for a highly aggressive dog.  Thus far those are the distinct minority, but they are the ones that generate all the press.  The non-AKC border collie people were successfull in maintaining their breed's working heritage and promoting working breeding programs...I don't see why pitbull breeders can't do similar in defining their breed.  Maybe they are though, but that just isn't as interesting to the media and bloody hunks of flesh.


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> Mrs. Kravitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone could find a wolf pup or a grizzley cub and raise it to be a well adjusted and friendly family pet.
> 
> It doesn't make it a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Wolves and Grizzly bears are not domesticated animals. No comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Dogs once weren't domesticated either.  Do you know how they became domesticated?
> 
> *I bet you do.  It's called BREEDING.*
> 
> Now tell me again how breeding doesn't matter.
Click to expand...


Reality check:



> Dog history has been studied recently using mitochondrial DNA, which suggests that wolves and dogs split into different species around *100,000 years ago*.
> 
> ....It seems clear that dog domestication was a long process, which started far longer ago than was believed even as recently as 2008. Based on evidence from Goyet and Chauvet caves in Europe, the dog domestication process *probably began as long ago as 30,000 years,* although the oldest evidence for a broader relationship, a working relationship, is the the Bonn-Oberkassel site, 14,000 years ago. The story of dog domestication is still in transition itself.



That is a lot of generations of canines and makes the comparison of pitbulls to wolves or grizzlies yet more ludicrous.

Selective breeding came along a lot later - a whole lot later.

Ever wonder why some animals become domesticated and others never do no matter how hard we try?


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me again how many of Vick's dogs weren't pit bulls?
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, none.
> 
> 
> 
> Since almost all of Vick's dogs were rehabilitated and adopted as family pets, epic fail on your part.
> 
> Define pit bull. How do you determine what dogs are pit bulls and which aren't? If you're going to have breed specific laws you have to be able to be specific about what a pit bull is. How does law enforcement prove a certain dog is a pit bull. Many types of dogs share similar characteristics to the so-called pit bull.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Family" pets my ass.
> 
> At least not families with kids anyway.
> 
> And Pit bulls are like racism and pornography... I know one when I see one.
Click to expand...


Actually...it's rather interesting what happened with them.  Surprisingly few were put down due to excessive aggression.  A bigger problem was their lack of socialization and issues related to abusive treatment.

Second Chance for the Michael Vick Dogs : Meet the Rescued Pit Bulls
Michael Vick Fighting Dogs Get "Rehab" Care


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a grand Idea.
> 
> If the breed is legal and you think it is dangerous dont go near the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this thread is about making some breeds illegal.
> Pandering to those with phobias about certain breeds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't support making any breeds illegal.
> 
> But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.
Click to expand...


If you made a mandatory muzzling law - it should be for any breed of dog over a certain size.  Bad temperment and reactivity don't necessarily stem from fighting.  Italy (I think) has such a law for dogs out in public places - which makes sense.

However - the other side of it is most dog bite incidents occur in the owners home or property, and is a family member so muzzling wouldn't make a difference - you can't keep a muzzle on long term.


----------



## Ravi

Google

Funny, nine returns and none of them are actually about Irish Wolfhounds attacking.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cows killed over 3 times as many people as pit bulls did in 2008.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...


Dangerous Cows - TierneyLab Blog - NYTimes.com

"The image of cows as placid, gentle creatures is a city slickers fantasy, judging from an article published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which reports that about 20 people a year are killed by cows in the United States. In some cases, the cows actually attack humansramming them, knocking them down, goring them, trampling them and kicking them in the headresulting in fatal injuries to the head and chest. 
 Mother cows, like other animals, can be fiercely protective of their young, and dairy bulls, the report notes, are especially possessive of their herd and occasionally disrupt feeding, cleaning, and milking routines.
The article, in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, discusses 21 cases in which people were killed by cattle from 2003 to 2007 in Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska. 
 In 16 cases, the animal was deemed to have purposefully struck the victim, the report states. In 5 other cases, people were crushed against walls or by gates shoved by the cattle. Ten of the attacks were by bulls, 6 by cows and 5 by multiple cattle. A third of the deaths were caused by animals that had been aggressive in the past. 
 All but one of the victims died from head or chest injuries; the last died after a cow knocked him down and a syringe in his pocket injected him with an antibiotic meant for the cow. In at least one case the animal attacked from behind, when the person wasnt looking. Older men with arthritis and hearing aids have the highest risk of being injured by livestock, the report says, probably because they dont hear the animals charging and cant move fast enough to get out of the way."


Pit bulls killed something like 5 people. I think Coyote gave the number in one of her previous posts. 


Moo!!


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doesn't compare with the jaw strength of a pit bull.
> 
> Why do you think all dog fighting dogs are pits?  Because they'd rip the throat out of a retreiver in new york minute, that's why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because a dog like a pitbull can inflict a seriously damaging bite does not diminish the damage any large powerful breed of dog can do when it bites.
> 
> Do a bit of research before you make statements like "all fighting dogs are pits".  There are a number of breeds bred for fighting and bred for attacking and killing things.  Many terriers fall into that category and, there are many pits who's heritage is far removed from fighting and are quite sociable with other dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell me again how many of Vick's dogs weren't pit bulls?
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, none.
Click to expand...


You mean Vick's the only dog fighter in the biz?   Hallelujah - we may have finally solved the problem of dogfighting


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> The vast number "pitbulls" are bred primarily as pets and have been for many generations (a look at old pictures will show you that the pit was a popular family dog)


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> I saw a special about dog breeding a little while ago that was pretty interesting.  Nothing specific about pit bulls, it was mostly about drug and bomb sniffing dogs. Basically what they said is that the canine genetic code is unique in the animal kingdom in how easily manipulated it is.  It only takes 2 or 3 generations to geneticaly engineer pretty much exactly what you're looking for.
> 
> Yet there are still those who insist that breeding doesn't matter.



I saw that too and it was fascinating!  I also remember reading something about an experiment to create boxers with natural bob tails and they crossed in a corgi, selectively bred back to boxers for several generations and finally got a bobtailed dog that was indistiinguishable from a "purebred" boxer.

But...that's the physical morphology of the animal, are temperment traits (or working ability) as easily manipulated and as quickly?


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this thread is about making some breeds illegal.
> Pandering to those with phobias about certain breeds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support making any breeds illegal.
> 
> But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you made a mandatory muzzling law - it should be for any breed of dog over a certain size.  Bad temperment and reactivity don't necessarily stem from fighting.  Italy (I think) has such a law for dogs out in public places - which makes sense.
> 
> However - the other side of it is most dog bite incidents occur in the owners home or property, and is a family member so muzzling wouldn't make a difference - you can't keep a muzzle on long term.
Click to expand...

Italy does have such a law. People get around it though, by letting the muzzle hand off the collar because the law does not specify how a dog must wear the muzle, only that it must be wearing one. 

Good point about most most dog bites occuring on private property so muzzle laws aren't useful there.


----------



## manifold

Yes, muzzle laws are useless at home and that's fine by me.

If you want to assume the risk in your own home, have at it.


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support making any breeds illegal.
> 
> But I am for example, *open* to the idea of a mandatory muzzling law for any dog rescued from a dog fighting operation, regardless of the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you made a mandatory muzzling law - it should be for any breed of dog over a certain size.  Bad temperment and reactivity don't necessarily stem from fighting.  Italy (I think) has such a law for dogs out in public places - which makes sense.
> 
> However - the other side of it is most dog bite incidents occur in the owners home or property, and is a family member so muzzling wouldn't make a difference - you can't keep a muzzle on long term.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Italy does have such a law. People get around it though, by letting the muzzle hand off the collar because the law does not specify how a dog must wear the muzle, only that it must be wearing one.
> 
> Good point about most most dog bites occuring on private property so muzzle laws aren't useful there.
Click to expand...


Ah, so it's a law that's not really very effective then.  It's a complicated issue unfortunately


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cows killed over 3 times as many people as pit bulls did in 2008.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dangerous Cows - TierneyLab Blog - NYTimes.com
> 
> "The image of cows as placid, gentle creatures is a city slickers fantasy, judging from an article published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which reports that about 20 people a year are killed by cows in the United States. In some cases, the cows actually attack humansramming them, knocking them down, goring them, trampling them and kicking them in the headresulting in fatal injuries to the head and chest.
> Mother cows, like other animals, can be fiercely protective of their young, and dairy bulls, the report notes, are especially possessive of their herd and occasionally disrupt feeding, cleaning, and milking routines.
> The article, in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, discusses 21 cases in which people were killed by cattle from 2003 to 2007 in Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska.
> In 16 cases, the animal was deemed to have purposefully struck the victim, the report states. In 5 other cases, people were crushed against walls or by gates shoved by the cattle. Ten of the attacks were by bulls, 6 by cows and 5 by multiple cattle. A third of the deaths were caused by animals that had been aggressive in the past.
> All but one of the victims died from head or chest injuries; the last died after a cow knocked him down and a syringe in his pocket injected him with an antibiotic meant for the cow. In at least one case the animal attacked from behind, when the person wasnt looking. Older men with arthritis and hearing aids have the highest risk of being injured by livestock, the report says, probably because they dont hear the animals charging and cant move fast enough to get out of the way."
> 
> 
> Pit bulls killed something like 5 people. I think Coyote gave the number in one of her previous posts.
> 
> 
> Moo!!
Click to expand...


Dang bovine badasss!






Time to do something about those cows!


----------



## Ravi

I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.



But not cars....


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you made a mandatory muzzling law - it should be for any breed of dog over a certain size.  Bad temperment and reactivity don't necessarily stem from fighting.  Italy (I think) has such a law for dogs out in public places - which makes sense.
> 
> However - the other side of it is most dog bite incidents occur in the owners home or property, and is a family member so muzzling wouldn't make a difference - you can't keep a muzzle on long term.
> 
> 
> 
> Italy does have such a law. People get around it though, by letting the muzzle hand off the collar because the law does not specify how a dog must wear the muzle, only that it must be wearing one.
> 
> Good point about most most dog bites occuring on private property so muzzle laws aren't useful there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, so it's a law that's not really very effective then.  It's a complicated issue unfortunately
Click to expand...


No,unless the people whose dogs realy are dangerous still muzzle them properly. I think Italy's law is silly since a muzzle is required of all dogs, regardless of any proven danger and the law is so badly written anyway.
But like I said above, I agree with muzzle laws for dogs that have proven to be a danger when unprovoked. 

I also wish that the stigma of having a dog on a muzzle was not so strong. I one time asked this owner of a German Shepherd whose dog is terrified of other dogs and barks and lunges aggressively at them why he doesn't just keep his dog on a muzzle when walking him, for his and everyone's peace of mind.  The guy said he didn't want his dog to look like a scary dog. 
I have also  heard that muzzled dogs are likely to act less aggressive when muzzled, so maybe muzzles could help in rehabing these dogs. I don't know if it's true.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.


If that's no so, are you calling for cow banning also?


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But not cars....
Click to expand...

Or smokers!! 

I wonder who is a worse menace to society?

smokers or pit bulls. 

Ravi or Petey, the Lil' Rascal's pet?


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But not cars....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or smokers!!
> 
> I wonder who is a worse menace to society?
> 
> smokers or pit bulls.
> 
> Ravi or Petey, the Lil' Rascal's pet?
Click to expand...


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But not cars....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or smokers!!
> 
> I wonder who is a worse menace to society?
> 
> smokers or pit bulls.
> 
> Ravi or Petey, the Lil' Rascal's pet?
Click to expand...


I'd wager a handsome sum that this lovable family pet is a bigger menace than even Ravi.


----------



## Anguille

_*FIND THE   PITBULL*_​ _Only one of the pictures below features the real American PitBull Terrier. Take the test to see if you can find it. To find the breed of a dog, click on image. Note there are no mixes or rescue dogs of unknown background who's breed could be debated. All dogs have been picked from breeders' websites and should be good representatives of their breed._​ _When you are done, ask your family and friends to take to test and watch the results. For many people, a Pit Bull is a a big headed dog, or a dog with cropped ears. For some it's a brindle dog, a big, stocky dog, or one with an eye patch. _​ _Quite often dogs   that attack are identified as pit bulls when they are not.  There are   20+ breeds that are commonly incorrectly identified as pit bulls.  Visit Understand-a-bull for more information. _

Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull

One more reason why breed specific laws are ineffective.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But not cars....
> 
> 
> 
> Or smokers!!
> 
> I wonder who is a worse menace to society?
> 
> smokers or pit bulls.
> 
> Ravi or Petey, the Lil' Rascal's pet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd wager a handsome sum that this lovable family pet is a bigger menace than even Ravi.
Click to expand...

Whatever kind of dog that is and for whatever reason it was provoked into baring it's fangs, it's only representative of that individual dog.


----------



## Anguille

But we know that ALL tobacco smoke is dangerous.


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Italy does have such a law. People get around it though, by letting the muzzle hand off the collar because the law does not specify how a dog must wear the muzle, only that it must be wearing one.
> 
> Good point about most most dog bites occuring on private property so muzzle laws aren't useful there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so it's a law that's not really very effective then.  It's a complicated issue unfortunately
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No,unless the people whose dogs realy are dangerous still muzzle them properly. I think Italy's law is silly since a muzzle is required of all dogs, regardless of any proven danger and the law is so badly written anyway.
> But like I said above, I agree with muzzle laws for dogs that have proven to be a danger when unprovoked.
> 
> I also wish that the stigma of having a dog on a muzzle was not so strong. I one time asked this owner of a German Shepherd whose dog is terrified of other dogs and barks and lunges aggressively at them why he doesn't just keep his dog on a muzzle when walking him, for his and everyone's peace of mind.  The guy said he didn't want his dog to look like a scary dog.
> I have also  heard that muzzled dogs are likely to act less aggressive when muzzled, so maybe muzzles could help in rehabing these dogs. I don't know if it's true.
Click to expand...



I know the stigma can be a problem - I've used head-halters on dogs and people think they are muzzles.  The advantage is that the owner, knowing there is muzzle or that they have better control over the dog with a halter - will noticably relax, and this relaxation is communicated to the dog - when the owner is all tensed up, the dog reacts to that tension by escalating.  I have one dog I will muzzle at some point in working with her and it will be tricky.  She isn't a lunger but she doesn't want people reaching for her or touching her. We're trying to get desensitized but, I doubt she will ever be a trustworthy dog and will always have to be carefully managed.


----------



## Anguille

For mani whose silly black and white ideas about dog breeding led him to once claim golden retrievers are trustworthy dogs.

* Family pet attacks toddler over weekend  *


 	Posted: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:00 am |  	_Updated: 3:52 pm, Tue Jul 14, 2009._ 
 	 | 0 comments
     	 			Child has surgery to reattach ear, over 200 stitches in face
 		 			By TONIE MARRIOTT - Register Staff Writer


      	 		 				A Mt. Carmel toddler, Branson Goodman, 2, had just woken up Saturday morning at approximately 9:30 a.m. and walked into the kitchen of the family home in Cherry Street Estates when the tragedy occurred, his grandmother Patty Lindsey told the Register late Monday afternoon.
 			 				"He just walked into the kitchen when he woke up and the dog attacked him for no reason," said Lindsey. "And bit him three times."
 			 				The dog in question is a four-year-old Golden Retriever that the family has only had for approximately two weeks, according to Lindsey. She explained that her daughter, Brandy Goodman, had acquired the dog while at a veterinarian's office in Albion."


Family pet attacks toddler over weekend


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> _*FIND THE   PITBULL*_​ _Only one of the pictures below features the real American PitBull Terrier. Take the test to see if you can find it. To find the breed of a dog, click on image. Note there are no mixes or rescue dogs of unknown background who's breed could be debated. All dogs have been picked from breeders' websites and should be good representatives of their breed._​ _When you are done, ask your family and friends to take to test and watch the results. For many people, a Pit Bull is a a big headed dog, or a dog with cropped ears. For some it's a brindle dog, a big, stocky dog, or one with an eye patch. _​ _Quite often dogs   that attack are identified as pit bulls when they are not.  There are   20+ breeds that are commonly incorrectly identified as pit bulls.  Visit Understand-a-bull for more information. _
> 
> Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
> 
> One more reason why breed specific laws are ineffective.



The system insists I have to spread more rep around dang it!  That is a great link!


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so it's a law that's not really very effective then.  It's a complicated issue unfortunately
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No,unless the people whose dogs realy are dangerous still muzzle them properly. I think Italy's law is silly since a muzzle is required of all dogs, regardless of any proven danger and the law is so badly written anyway.
> But like I said above, I agree with muzzle laws for dogs that have proven to be a danger when unprovoked.
> 
> I also wish that the stigma of having a dog on a muzzle was not so strong. I one time asked this owner of a German Shepherd whose dog is terrified of other dogs and barks and lunges aggressively at them why he doesn't just keep his dog on a muzzle when walking him, for his and everyone's peace of mind.  The guy said he didn't want his dog to look like a scary dog.
> I have also  heard that muzzled dogs are likely to act less aggressive when muzzled, so maybe muzzles could help in rehabing these dogs. I don't know if it's true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I know the stigma can be a problem - I've used head-halters on dogs and people think they are muzzles.  The advantage is that the owner, knowing there is muzzle or that they have better control over the dog with a halter - will noticably relax, and this relaxation is communicated to the dog - when the owner is all tensed up, the dog reacts to that tension by escalating.  I have one dog I will muzzle at some point in working with her and it will be tricky.  She isn't a lunger but she doesn't want people reaching for her or touching her. We're trying to get desensitized but, I doubt she will ever be a trustworthy dog and will always have to be carefully managed.
Click to expand...

It's really commendable that you spend time helping these dogs. 



With time maybe you will be successful with her. Meanwhile it looks like a muzzle is a good option for her.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*FIND THE   PITBULL*_​ _Only one of the pictures below features the real American PitBull Terrier. Take the test to see if you can find it. To find the breed of a dog, click on image. Note there are no mixes or rescue dogs of unknown background who's breed could be debated. All dogs have been picked from breeders' websites and should be good representatives of their breed._​ _When you are done, ask your family and friends to take to test and watch the results. For many people, a Pit Bull is a a big headed dog, or a dog with cropped ears. For some it's a brindle dog, a big, stocky dog, or one with an eye patch. _​ _Quite often dogs   that attack are identified as pit bulls when they are not.  There are   20+ breeds that are commonly incorrectly identified as pit bulls.  Visit Understand-a-bull for more information. _
> 
> Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
> 
> One more reason why breed specific laws are ineffective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The system insists I have to spread more rep around dang it!  That is a great link!
Click to expand...

Isn't it!!  I still haven't found the pit bull in it. 

I once cared for an extremely dangerous purebred Rhodesian Ridgeback who looked like he could have been what many people identifiy as pit bull. But his papers indicated he was not. He was eventually put down. 

I also used to take care of a half Brittany Spaniel half Black Lab, bred from champions who as a younf dog was aggressive towards other male dogs and children. He also resembled pit bulls. Fortunately he finally stopped being aggressive to other dogs and actually grew fond of kids. Mostly because another dog taught him!


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

I like American Bulldogs...


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.
> 
> 
> 
> If that's no so, are you calling for cow banning also?
Click to expand...

Nope. If pits were penned in the same manner as cows we wouldn't be having this discussion.


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> No,unless the people whose dogs realy are dangerous still muzzle them properly. I think Italy's law is silly since a muzzle is required of all dogs, regardless of any proven danger and the law is so badly written anyway.
> But like I said above, I agree with muzzle laws for dogs that have proven to be a danger when unprovoked.
> 
> I also wish that the stigma of having a dog on a muzzle was not so strong. I one time asked this owner of a German Shepherd whose dog is terrified of other dogs and barks and lunges aggressively at them why he doesn't just keep his dog on a muzzle when walking him, for his and everyone's peace of mind.  The guy said he didn't want his dog to look like a scary dog.
> I have also  heard that muzzled dogs are likely to act less aggressive when muzzled, so maybe muzzles could help in rehabing these dogs. I don't know if it's true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know the stigma can be a problem - I've used head-halters on dogs and people think they are muzzles.  The advantage is that the owner, knowing there is muzzle or that they have better control over the dog with a halter - will noticably relax, and this relaxation is communicated to the dog - when the owner is all tensed up, the dog reacts to that tension by escalating.  I have one dog I will muzzle at some point in working with her and it will be tricky.  She isn't a lunger but she doesn't want people reaching for her or touching her. We're trying to get desensitized but, I doubt she will ever be a trustworthy dog and will always have to be carefully managed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's really commendable that you spend time helping these dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> With time maybe you will be successful with her. Meanwhile it looks like a muzzle is a good option for her.
Click to expand...



Well...in all honesty, I didn't know exactly what I was getting into when I got her, I  knew she had some issues, that had not been there when our group had fostered her and when she got adopted - they showed up over the year in which she was adopted.  She came back and I agreed to give her a try.  She has enough good points - she is smart as hell, a fast learner, very very sensitive and quick, but she has a lot of edge and a low reactivity threshold driven by noises and fears.  I see so much potential in her, but a lot of "screwed up" too.  It's sad   I don't know that I'd willingly take on aggression again - it's very hard to work with and if not for the help of more knowledgeable people then I, I couldn't.  She is not adoptable, so she is a permenent member of our pack...but I wouldn't add another...

She's a cutie - here's her Christmas picture after her sock orgy (you can see why I couldn't put her down).  Last night I couldn't find my snow boots (fluffy lined warmth)....found them both on her dog bed under the table...hmmmm.


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.
> 
> 
> 
> If that's no so, are you calling for cow banning also?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope. If pits were penned in the same manner as cows we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Click to expand...


Ban cars.


----------



## Coyote

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*FIND THE   PITBULL*_​ _Only one of the pictures below features the real American PitBull Terrier. Take the test to see if you can find it. To find the breed of a dog, click on image. Note there are no mixes or rescue dogs of unknown background who's breed could be debated. All dogs have been picked from breeders' websites and should be good representatives of their breed._​ _When you are done, ask your family and friends to take to test and watch the results. For many people, a Pit Bull is a a big headed dog, or a dog with cropped ears. For some it's a brindle dog, a big, stocky dog, or one with an eye patch. _​ _Quite often dogs   that attack are identified as pit bulls when they are not.  There are   20+ breeds that are commonly incorrectly identified as pit bulls.  Visit Understand-a-bull for more information. _
> 
> Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
> 
> One more reason why breed specific laws are ineffective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The system insists I have to spread more rep around dang it!  That is a great link!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't it!!  I still haven't found the pit bull in it.
> 
> I once cared for an extremely dangerous purebred Rhodesian Ridgeback who looked like he could have been what many people identifiy as pit bull. But his papers indicated he was not. He was eventually put down.
> 
> I also used to take care of a half Brittany Spaniel half Black Lab, bred from champions who as a younf dog was aggressive towards other male dogs and children. He also resembled pit bulls. Fortunately he finally stopped being aggressive to other dogs and actually grew fond of kids. Mostly because another dog taught him!
Click to expand...



It's interesting, I've evaluated a few pitbulls for other rescues, when they've been at our local shelter, and they've been phenomenal dogs.  A few times, I've seen some there I wouldn't have gone near (usually, they were confiscated from neglect or abuse cases and had to be held).  The only time I've been bitten with serious intent was by a cattledog, and that was pretty scary (it was bit, shake, tear and bite again) - fortunately I had layers and long sleeves.  But he gave very little indication of his intent it was so fast - but there were a lot of little warning signs along the way that made me cautious and circumvent certain parts of the test.  None of the warning signs however were aggression - rather supreme confidence, an in-your-space attitude, more interest in pissing on stuff then in the people.  If you didn't know what to look for you would think he was very friendly until you did something *he* didn't like.


----------



## ron scott

new here and would like to know how i can keep track of my posts?
is there a way to do that?
the search window sort of helped but I still had to dig through pages to find my last post
and I know I have other posts I made that didn't come up when I searched my user name..


thanks, anyone,

"nice dog"


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> Whatever kind of dog that is and for whatever reason it was provoked into baring it's fangs, it's only representative of that individual dog.



Right.  But Petey the little rascal's dog represents all pit bulls. 

Epic Fail!


----------



## Ravi

Coyote said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that's no so, are you calling for cow banning also?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. If pits were penned in the same manner as cows we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ban cars.
Click to expand...

Irrelevant.


----------



## Coyote

ron scott said:


> new here and would like to know how i can keep track of my posts?
> is there a way to do that?
> the search window sort of helped but I still had to dig through pages to find my last post
> and I know I have other posts I made that didn't come up when I searched my user name..
> 
> 
> thanks, anyone,
> 
> "nice dog"



If you click on your name next to your avatar on  a message - it should show a pull down menu that lets you look at all your posts. (I'm not sure I'm explaining it well, but give it a try?)


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. If pits were penned in the same manner as cows we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ban cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Irrelevant.
Click to expand...


An average of *4 Pitbull fatalities and 10 maimings a year, out of a population of 5 million* pitbulls....

Out of a populatiion of 254.4 million cars, there are ... six million car accidents each year, causing permenant injury to 2 million of those people and killing 40,000 people  AND the leading cause of death for individuals between 2 and 34 years old is motor vehicle crashes.


Which is statistically relevant?  Which causes more real loss of life and limb...hmmm?


----------



## manifold

Coyote said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ban cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> An average of *4 Pitbull fatalities and 10 maimings a year, out of a population of 5 million* pitbulls....
> 
> Out of a populatiion of 254.4 million cars, there are ... six million car accidents each year, causing permenant injury to 2 million of those people and killing 40,000 people  AND the leading cause of death for individuals between 2 and 34 years old is motor vehicle crashes.
> 
> 
> Which is statistically relevant?  Which causes more real loss of life and limb...hmmm?
Click to expand...



So you're suggesting that pit bull owners should be required to get a license and have their dog's registered and inspected annually.  Interesting idea.


----------



## Ravi

The car thing is still irrelevant, but if you wish to get them banned, more power to you. 

I'm curious though, if people often call dogs that aren't pit bulls _pit bulls,_ how do we know the population of pit bulls in the US?


----------



## Ravi

manifold said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An average of *4 Pitbull fatalities and 10 maimings a year, out of a population of 5 million* pitbulls....
> 
> Out of a populatiion of 254.4 million cars, there are ... six million car accidents each year, causing permenant injury to 2 million of those people and killing 40,000 people  AND the leading cause of death for individuals between 2 and 34 years old is motor vehicle crashes.
> 
> 
> Which is statistically relevant?  Which causes more real loss of life and limb...hmmm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you're suggesting that pit bull owners should be required to get a license and have their dog's registered and inspected annually.  Interesting idea.
Click to expand...

It is an excellent idea. Make them go through the same type of trials that show dogs go through...it would be very easy then to know if the dogs were vicious or not.


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know the stigma can be a problem - I've used head-halters on dogs and people think they are muzzles.  The advantage is that the owner, knowing there is muzzle or that they have better control over the dog with a halter - will noticably relax, and this relaxation is communicated to the dog - when the owner is all tensed up, the dog reacts to that tension by escalating.  I have one dog I will muzzle at some point in working with her and it will be tricky.  She isn't a lunger but she doesn't want people reaching for her or touching her. We're trying to get desensitized but, I doubt she will ever be a trustworthy dog and will always have to be carefully managed.
> 
> 
> 
> It's really commendable that you spend time helping these dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> With time maybe you will be successful with her. Meanwhile it looks like a muzzle is a good option for her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well...in all honesty, I didn't know exactly what I was getting into when I got her, I  knew she had some issues, that had not been there when our group had fostered her and when she got adopted - they showed up over the year in which she was adopted.  She came back and I agreed to give her a try.  She has enough good points - she is smart as hell, a fast learner, very very sensitive and quick, but she has a lot of edge and a low reactivity threshold driven by noises and fears.  I see so much potential in her, but a lot of "screwed up" too.  It's sad   I don't know that I'd willingly take on aggression again - it's very hard to work with and if not for the help of more knowledgeable people then I, I couldn't.  She is not adoptable, so she is a permenent member of our pack...but I wouldn't add another...
> 
> She's a cutie - here's her Christmas picture after her sock orgy (you can see why I couldn't put her down).  Last night I couldn't find my snow boots (fluffy lined warmth)....found them both on her dog bed under the table...hmmmm.
Click to expand...

She is beautiful!! I love that look of mischief on her face.

I fostered a dog for a while, a half Basset half Labrador Retriever that my brother eventually adopted who had a similar problem as yours. If anyone stuck their face in his he would snap. And people tended to do that alot because he was so cute and gave no warning signs. At his worst he would lunge at people who walked past us while I had him on the leash. Fortunately he didn't give anyone more than a minor scratch and no one was a jerk about it. Eventually he calmed down after my brother had him for a few years and he lived to be 17 with no more incidents after about 4 years old. So maybe you dog just needs more time. Good luck with her!


----------



## chanel

Off topic - how does an angry eel turn into a nosy neighbor and then back again?  Simply bewitching...


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive that it is illegal to have cows out in public.
> 
> 
> 
> If that's no so, are you calling for cow banning also?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope. If pits were penned in the same manner as cows we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Click to expand...

 
Don't you think those 21 cows that killed people were in some kind of enclosure?

So are you now saying you want laws that require pit pulls to be kept in pens? Do you really think that's the way to address the issue of dangerous dogs?


----------



## Anguille

chanel said:


> Off topic - how does an angry eel turn into a nosy neighbor and then back again?  Simply bewitching...


LOL!  Echo and Dis requested the name change from Gunny and I agreed to it.


----------



## Coyote

manifold said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An average of *4 Pitbull fatalities and 10 maimings a year, out of a population of 5 million* pitbulls....
> 
> Out of a populatiion of 254.4 million cars, there are ... six million car accidents each year, causing permenant injury to 2 million of those people and killing 40,000 people  AND the leading cause of death for individuals between 2 and 34 years old is motor vehicle crashes.
> 
> 
> Which is statistically relevant?  Which causes more real loss of life and limb...hmmm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you're suggesting that pit bull owners should be required to get a license and have their dog's registered and inspected annually.  Interesting idea.
Click to expand...


Hmm...now where did I suggest that....


----------



## Anguille

Coyote said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> An average of *4 Pitbull fatalities and 10 maimings a year, out of a population of 5 million* pitbulls....
> 
> Out of a populatiion of 254.4 million cars, there are ... six million car accidents each year, causing permenant injury to 2 million of those people and killing 40,000 people  AND the leading cause of death for individuals between 2 and 34 years old is motor vehicle crashes.
> 
> 
> Which is statistically relevant?  Which causes more real loss of life and limb...hmmm?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you're suggesting that pit bull owners should be required to get a license and have their dog's registered and inspected annually.  Interesting idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm...now where did I suggest that....
Click to expand...

I wonder what planet manifold posts from?
My city requires all dogs be licensed and be regularly vaccinated against rabies. I assume most districts do the same.


----------



## Toronado3800

Pit Bulls are interesting.  I'm not allowed to own a lion or even bob cat w/o quite the bit of paperwork.

I'll say folks are allowed to have the dog but are entirely responsible for its behavior.  Dog bites someone who wasn't taunting it owner gets charged with assault.  Dog bites someone breaking into the house no big deal.

Then whoever will take the time to train and treat their dog right will still own one.

Interesting point, as a juvenile I had one exciting experience with a rottweiler.  Darn thing swallowed one of my mittens as we were going at it!  All because I was walking across its front yard. (busy street, no side walk)

Its my only bad experience with a big dog though.  Folks and their shih tzu and other goofy dogs bread to be tiny but not smart.  I've seen probably five of those bite folks.  Funny none of them lord awful animals got put down.


----------



## Anguille

I wonder why Ravi slunk out of this thread?


----------



## Ravi

It seemed pointless to continue reading your mindless babbling on the subject and watching you ignore points that others made.

Don't worry, I'm working tirelessly to ban the breeding of pit bulls in my county.

IMO, breeding pit bulls is animal cruelty since so many of them must be put down because of the danger to the public they pose.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> It seemed pointless to continue reading your mindless babbling on the subject and watching you ignore points that others made.
> 
> Don't worry, I'm working tirelessly to ban the breeding of pit bulls in my county.
> 
> IMO, breeding pit bulls is animal cruelty since so many of them must be put down because of the danger to the public they pose.


Yeah, I really believe that's why you left this thread.


----------



## Ravi

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever kind of dog that is and for whatever reason it was provoked into baring it's fangs, it's only representative of that individual dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right.  But Petey the little rascal's dog represents all pit bulls.
> 
> Epic Fail!
Click to expand...

Like this one...very funny.


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you're suggesting that pit bull owners should be required to get a license and have their dog's registered and inspected annually.  Interesting idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...now where did I suggest that....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wonder what planet manifold posts from?
> My city requires all dogs be licensed and be regularly vaccinated against rabies. I assume most districts do the same.
Click to expand...




Nice strawman. 

But I guess I left it ambiguous enough to allow a skilled charlatan such as yourself to dive right in. 


Good for you.


----------



## ron scott

hey thanks coyote, that works!


----------



## ron scott

Coyote said:


> ron scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> new here and would like to know how i can keep track of my posts?
> is there a way to do that?
> the search window sort of helped but I still had to dig through pages to find my last post
> and I know I have other posts I made that didn't come up when I searched my user name..
> 
> 
> thanks, anyone,
> 
> "nice dog"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you click on your name next to your avatar on  a message - it should show a pull down menu that lets you look at all your posts. (I'm not sure I'm explaining it well, but give it a try?)
Click to expand...

sorry, experimenting with reply, thanks again.
* firstreply did not add "quote message in reply" and it seemed discomboggled (is that a word?)


----------



## ron scott

dis&#8901;com&#8901;bob&#8901;u&#8901;late&#8194;&#8194;/&#716;d&#618;sk&#601;m&#712;b&#594;by&#601;&#716;le&#618;t/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [dis-kuhm-bob-yuh-leyt]  Show IPA 
Use discombobulate in a Sentence
See images of discombobulate
Search discombobulate on the Web
&#8211;verb (used with object), -lat&#8901;ed, -lat&#8901;ing. to confuse or disconcert; upset; frustrate: The speaker was completely discombobulated by the hecklers.  
________________________________________________

seems there should be a discombobbled, but don't think they is!
who writes these dictionaries anyway? republicans?
LOL


----------



## Coyote

Ravi said:


> *It seemed pointless to continue reading your mindless babbling on the subject and watching you ignore points that others made.*
> Don't worry, I'm working tirelessly to ban the breeding of pit bulls in my county.
> 
> IMO, breeding pit bulls is animal cruelty since so many of them must be put down because of the danger to the public they pose.



That is strange.  There have been countless posts countering your points.  Have you missed them?  Or....did you ignore them?


----------



## Coyote

ron scott said:


> hey thanks coyote, that works!


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> It seemed pointless to continue reading your mindless babbling on the subject and watching you ignore points that others made.
> 
> Don't worry, I'm working tirelessly to ban the breeding of pit bulls in my county.
> 
> IMO, breeding pit bulls is animal cruelty since so many of them must be put down because of the danger to the public they pose.


You participate in the fear mongering about pit bulls which leads to them being put down and then you call for a ban on breeding them because they get put down. 

How many pit bulls have actually been put down because they are a genuine danger to the public? Compare that number to the number of pit bulls that have never caused anyone any harm. Tell me again if that justifies banning them.

I'm not talking about dogs put down as a result of laws which require confiscation and mass exterminations of all pit bulls in a certain area, I'm speaking about the number of pit bulls that have actually attacked people and have been put down as a result.

There are examples among all breeds and mixed breeds too of dogs who have been put down because they were dangerous. By your reasoning we should ban the breeding of all dogs. Is it your aim to eliminate dogs altogether?

I am in favor of stricter regulations governing the breeding of all dogs. Many breeds have been cruelly abused for the sake of fashion and monetary gain. It's animal cruelty to exploit Chihuahuas with birth defects to breed teacup Chihuahuas, poor creatures only survive a few months or years and then die slow deaths due to the birth defects. As do many of the toy breeds. 

Pit bulls aren't known to suffer from as many genetic problems as many other breeds but anyone in the business of breeding them to try and emphasize unnatural aggression and fighting skills should be shut down and sent to jail for animal cruelty. Responsible breeders breeding them to be healthy family pets should be allowed to continue same as any other dog breeder. 

I am against breeding in general because there are so many unscrupulous breeders but I realize that in most areas, the natural way of letting your pooch run lose to mate with whoever she chooses and producing a litter of good old All American mutts the old fashioned way is over. So, since I think dogs are important to us in so many ways, I have to accept that as time goes on, we will be relying more and more on breeders to provide them for us. Before that happens though I would like to see the number of dogs produced from breeding operations reduced until all the unwanted strays in the world have a home.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...now where did I suggest that....
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what planet manifold posts from?
> My city requires all dogs be licensed and be regularly vaccinated against rabies. I assume most districts do the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice strawman.
> 
> But I guess I left it ambiguous enough to allow a skilled charlatan such as yourself to dive right in.
> 
> 
> Good for you.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the complement. Being called a skilled charlatan by non other than the fabled MP himself is a great honor. 

I notice that while you have proposed several breed specific laws you have yet to mention any support for laws that are aimed at reducing dog related death and injury as a result of neglect and abuse of dogs - which is what experts tell us is the major factor contributing to this problem. You even took to your bed and weeped for a week it looked like your hero, Michael Vick, Dog Abuser Extraordinaire, was not going to be allowed to play football anymore.

I hope you don't own a dog. You seem to me to be the type of person would spend a lot of money to buy a status building trophy dog like a Golden Retriever, thinking it's some kind of warranteed  product and then proceed to neglect it, never train it or give it proper exercise and socialization with people and other dogs and end up totally baffled as to why the dog ate your kid.


----------



## manifold

Hey Ang.



Fuck you, you lying ****.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Hey Ang.
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you, you lying ****.


----------



## manifold

Looks like the lying **** is feeling guilty.


Unfortunately I'm not in the absolution business.

You'll need to find yourself a priest.


----------



## Anguille

Feeling guilty? Because you're having another meltdown?

Not my fault that I hit a nerve.


----------



## manifold

You think calling you out for being a lying **** is having a meltdown?

If by nerve, you mean lying, then sure... I guess. 

I'm just glad you don't have any kids.  They'd surely be fucked up beyond repair before they started kindergarten.

True story.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> You think calling you out for being a lying **** is having a meltdown?
> 
> If by nerve, you mean lying, then sure... I guess.
> 
> I'm just glad you don't have any kids.  They'd surely be fucked up beyond repair before they started kindergarten.
> 
> True story.


Why do you think I don't have any kids?


----------



## manifold

How quickly you forget.

By your own admission, (on another board) the only time you ever got pregnant you had an abortion.

I hate to admit it, but in your case I think you made the right choice.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> How quickly you forget.
> 
> By your own admission, (on another board) the only time you ever got pregnant you had an abortion.
> 
> I hate to admit it, but in your case I think you made the right choice.


I never said anything of the sort. 
It's clear who the lying **** actually is, manifold. 

You don't like what I say but it's true that fear mongers like you who call for breed specific laws because you are so ignorant and so prone to scapegoating are indeed aiding and abetting the animal abusers whose unfortunate and helpless dogs become the dogs who attack people. 

You are helping them by drawing attention away from the real causes of death and injury from dog attack and spreading hatred and old wife's tales. Shame on you, mani! You are a dog attack enabler.


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## Anguille

And a


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## Dante

*The manifold Type*


Anguille said:


> And a


Are you busy with the children again? Or is mani just asking quest-ions again?


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## Dante

manifold said:


> So you're suggesting that pit bull owners should be required to get a license and have their dog's registered and inspected annually.  Interesting idea.


What? 

Dogs are usually registered once a year. Inspected? How? Dogs get inspected for rabies by law. What is happening here? mani, do you own a dog? Why the big concern for dogs?

Do you need help putting a dog down? I have experience. 


*woof


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## manifold

I invite the baby killing, lying **** to provide a quote of me advocating breed specific laws.


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## Anguille

manifold said:


> I invite the baby killing, lying **** to provide a quote of me advocating breed specific laws.


I wish you had invited_ me _to do it.


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## manifold

I invite that baby killing, lying **** Anguille to quote me advocating breed specific laws.


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## Ravi

Manifold is lying.

True story.


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## Anguille

I notice that the baby killing lying **** manifold does not deny any of the other allegations in my post.


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## manifold

There was at least 4 lies in your post.

I'm taking them one at a time.

So go ahead, find my post advocating breed specific laws.


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## Anguille

manifold said:


> There was at least 4 lies in your post.
> 
> I'm taking them one at a time.
> 
> So go ahead, find my post advocating breed specific laws.


Recant your lie about me posting I had aborted my only pregnancy, then maybe we can talk.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was at least 4 lies in your post.
> 
> I'm taking them one at a time.
> 
> So go ahead, find my post advocating breed specific laws.
> 
> 
> 
> Recant your lie about me posting I had aborted my only pregnancy, then maybe we can talk.
Click to expand...


Why so touchy?


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## ron scott

maybe it's better I can't find my posts the next day or so after coming back here!
phew!
Is this just a bashing site for biggots or what? (who controls this?)
I guess pitbulls are just a surface issue here!
yikes.. not fun, educational or anything!
no wonder we are so duped as a people
the divide and conquer tactics are working well for our rulers.
Disrespect of anyone with vulgarity, put downs and abusive language should not be allowed, that is uncivilized discourse. If someone can't defend an issue or point without resorting to uncivilized discourse there is clearly a lack of intelligence there, to say the least. Walk away good people, you do not have to play therapist here. Shame on US Message Boards.


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## keee keee

a pit bull is like a gun, if not properly trained and in the wrong hands they are very dangerous. But if they are trained and handled properly they are a great tool and asset. I have known many nice pits and scared of a few bad ones, which I would dispose of if needed without any remorse!!! a mean biter is only good for security and eating criminals!!


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## manifold

keee keee said:


> a pit bull is like a gun, if not properly trained and in the wrong hands they are very dangerous. But if they are trained and handled properly they are a great tool and asset. I have known many nice pits and scared of a few bad ones, which I would dispose of if needed without any remorse!!! a mean biter is only good for security and eating criminals!!



not all pitbull owners are drug dealers, but all drug dealers are pitbull owners.

It shouldn't be difficult to understand why, but some people are simply incapable of objectivity when it comes to this subject.


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## Coyote

manifold said:


> keee keee said:
> 
> 
> 
> a pit bull is like a gun, if not properly trained and in the wrong hands they are very dangerous. But if they are trained and handled properly they are a great tool and asset. I have known many nice pits and scared of a few bad ones, which I would dispose of if needed without any remorse!!! a mean biter is only good for security and eating criminals!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not all pitbull owners are drug dealers, *but all drug dealers are pitbull owners.*
> It shouldn't be difficult to understand why, but some people are simply incapable of objectivity when it comes to this subject.
Click to expand...


No.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Anguille said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are the preferred breed for drug dealers and thugs.  I would like to see a dog registry at the police station so they have a list of homes to watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation : Black people like them so lets take out our hatred on their dogs.
Click to expand...



Are you saying the phrases 'drug dealers and thugs' and 'black people' are equivalent?


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## manifold

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;1915126 said:
			
		

> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are the preferred breed for drug dealers and thugs.  I would like to see a dog registry at the police station so they have a list of homes to watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation : Black people like them so lets take out our hatred on their dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying the phrases 'drug dealers and thugs' and 'black people' are equivalent?
Click to expand...


Very astute.  That's exactly what she is saying.


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## Anguille

Ravi said:


> It seemed pointless to continue reading your mindless babbling on the subject and watching you ignore points that others made.
> 
> Don't worry, I'm working tirelessly to ban the breeding of pit bulls in my county.
> 
> IMO, breeding pit bulls is animal cruelty since so many of them must be put down because of the danger to the public they pose.


I realize it would kill you to admit I was right about anything concerning pit bulls, but how is it you 've barely responded to or acknowledged any of the quite legitimate points Coyote has made? She is clearly very well informed and knowledgeable, not to mention very articulate on the subject. 
Are you too close-minded to consider that she has made some valid points?


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## Anguille

Ravi said:


> The car thing is still irrelevant, but if you wish to get them banned, more power to you.
> 
> I'm curious though, if people often call dogs that aren't pit bulls _pit bulls,_ how do we know the population of pit bulls in the US?



I'd like to know that too. I'd also like to know how they know that "pit bulls" or Rottweilers or whatever breed is listed in stats on dog attacks are actually the breed they are labeled with. Usually these stats are based on police reports. I wonder what criteria police are using to determine the breed of a dog?

You complain of a neighbor's pit bull who makes you nervous. How do you even know it's a pit bull?

Did you take this test?



Anguille said:


> _*FIND THE   PITBULL*_​ _Only one of the pictures below features the real American PitBull Terrier. Take the test to see if you can find it. To find the breed of a dog, click on image. Note there are no mixes or rescue dogs of unknown background who's breed could be debated. All dogs have been picked from breeders' websites and should be good representatives of their breed._​ _When you are done, ask your family and friends to take to test and watch the results. For many people, a Pit Bull is a a big headed dog, or a dog with cropped ears. For some it's a brindle dog, a big, stocky dog, or one with an eye patch. _​ _Quite often dogs   that attack are identified as pit bulls when they are not.  There are   20+ breeds that are commonly incorrectly identified as pit bulls.  Visit Understand-a-bull for more information. _
> 
> Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
> 
> One more reason why breed specific laws are ineffective.


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## Ravi

The owners say the dogs are pits and I believe them.

Coyote made some points but she didn't convince me that pits aren't bred to be vicious. Quite the opposite, in fact, she agreed that they were.


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## Anguille

Ravi said:


> The owners say the dogs are pits and I believe them.
> 
> Coyote made some points but she didn't convince me that pits aren't bred to be vicious. Quite the opposite, in fact, she agreed that they were.


  She said SOME are whereas you this ALL are. She points out that very few actually are and that it's inconclusive if this selective breeding for viciousness actually works. She also makes a very good point that any breed of dog is at risk for attempts to breed it for viciousness and there is no reason to believe that if it can be done to pit it can't be done to any other type of dog.

She also makes other points about how training and care play a much bigger part in a dog's chances for becoming a vicious dog than breed does.

Anyhow, that's what I understood her to have said. 

Rottweilers have just as bad a reputation and are certainly as strong as pit bulls. Why aren't you calling to have that breed made illegal?


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## Anguille

Ravi said:


> The owners say the dogs are pits and I believe them.


How about the test I linked to? Does not the fact that it is very difficult to identify which dogs are actually pit bulls and which are separate breeds that resemble them make breed specific laws ineffectual? What do you do in the case of mixed breeds? Does any dog with any amount of pit bull blood count as a pit pit bull? Just like octaroons where considered black in the South?


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## Ravi

Rots don't have the same rep as much as you may wish it so.


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## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Rots don't have the same rep as much as you may wish it so.


So says you. I hear people express the same anxieties about Rotties as they do about pits. In fact, I remember Rottweilers had as bad a rep in popular culture as pit bull do before pit bulls became the latest popular.  Before that it was Dobermans and before that German Shepherds.

"The portrayal of Rottweilers as evil dogs in several fictional films and TV series, most notably in _The Omen_, and negative press has added to their negative publicity. This has led to Rottweilers being banned in some municipalities and are sometimes targeted as dangerous dogs by legislation, such as in the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal and the Republic of Ireland. "
Rottweiler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regardless of all that, concerning reputation, why would you base your opinion concerning the legitimacy of breed specific laws on rumors and fear mongering? Why not base it on scientific knowledge and the recommendations of experts such as veterinary and medical associations, SPAs, the CDC and other reliable experts, all who have spoken out against breed specific laws for reasons of ineficacy and cruelty to animals ?


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## Ravi

Oh my! A movie turned Rots into pit bull like killers.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Oh my! A movie turned Rots into pit bull like killers.


  That's all you can say?


----------



## dilloduck

Ravi said:


> Rots don't have the same rep as much as you may wish it so.



Can we start a rep the Rot thread and help em out ?   It has a nice ring to it


----------



## Ravi

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my! A movie turned Rots into pit bull like killers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's all you can say?
Click to expand...

Well, you have to admit that your _proof_ that Rots are dangerous because a movie said they are is beyond retarded.

Heck, we are now in RGS territory.


----------



## Ravi

dilloduck said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rots don't have the same rep as much as you may wish it so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can we start a rep the Rot thread and help em out ?   It has a nice ring to it
Click to expand...

Rep for Rots?

It does have a nice ring.


----------



## Anguille

Ravi said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my! A movie turned Rots into pit bull like killers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's all you can say?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, you have to admit that your _proof_ that Rots are dangerous because a movie said they are is beyond retarded.
> 
> Heck, we are now in RGS territory.
Click to expand...

I've never said they were dangerous nor did I provide proof that they are. I only pointed out they had a reputation for being dangerous and proof of that reputation, since reputation rather than facts is the only thing you base your opinions on.


----------



## Anguille

Anguille said:


> How about the test I linked to? Does not the fact that it is very difficult to identify which dogs are actually pit bulls and which are separate breeds that resemble them make breed specific laws ineffectual? What do you do in the case of mixed breeds? Does any dog with any amount of pit bull blood count as a pit pit bull? Just like octaroons where considered black in the South?


No response to this post, Ravi?


----------



## AllieBaba

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's all you can say?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you have to admit that your _proof_ that Rots are dangerous because a movie said they are is beyond retarded.
> 
> Heck, we are now in RGS territory.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've never said they were dangerous nor did I provide proof that they are. I only pointed out they had a reputation for being dangerous and proof of that reputation, since reputation rather than facts is the only thing you base your opinions on.
Click to expand...



Rots are dangerous. They're HELLA dangerous.

However, they aren't a terrier. That's the pit bull's thing. They're a big, very strong terrier. That makes them dangerous. I own a 10 lb terrier (Parson Russell Terrorist) and she scares everyone.

"Atlanta Journal Constitution 

October 11, 2002, KENNESAW, GA - (Abstract) A 23-month-old Kennesaw girl was killed Thursday by her family's Rottweilers while her parents slept, according to police. The girl slipped out of the family's Lakewood Drive home around 2 p.m. and wandered into the back yard where the two dogs were chained, said Detective Craig Chandler of the Kennesaw Police Department." 

Unchain Your Dog.org | Chained Rottweilers Kill Toddler

"A five-month-old baby girl died of her injuries after being savaged by rottweilers, police revealed yesterday.
The dogs pounced on the baby while she was in her family's living quarters above the Rocket pub in New Parks, Leicester, on Saturday afternoon. Police said she was "dragged for a distance", possibly on to a balcony."

Pub rottweilers kill five-month-old girl | UK news | The Guardian

"On April 24th, 1997 three of Davidsons four Rots killed 11 year old Christopher Wilson as he waited for a school bus."
Rots Kill 11 Year Old Boy

"A pony has died after being savagely attacked in a field by two rottweiler dogs. "
Rottweilers kill horse and are shot dead by Lancashire police - Equestrian news, equine news, horse news - Horse & Hound

Anyone who tries to say that Rotties aren't very, very edgy and prone to being exceedingly dangerous is fooling themselves, and setting themselves up for a nice chomp in the face sometime.

It's stupid to kid yourself about the degree of potential any animal has for deadly behavior. I have horses, who certainly aren't prey animals...but I will be the first to tell you they are very, VERY dangerous.

I've always had big dogs....as well as small dogs, and kids, and cats, and herd animals. 

Rotties and pit bulls are very, very dangerous animals. German Shepherds have the potential to be, but generally they're very easy to get a handle on. Rots & pits are bull headed and you have to be ON TOP of them every second. Rotts if handled correctly should grow out of aggressive and/or dangerous behavior, if you're 100 percent committed to them for a couple of years.

Pitbulls, you can't let your guard down, ever.

And if someone is up for that, I think everyone who wants one should be able to have the dog they want. 

It's the people who are in denial who pose a threat to the rest of us, our kids and our property.

I had a girlfriend who had a huge male rott, and he was a sweetheart. But she let him run at night. Eventually somebody shot him, and deservedly so. You want to come across a 100 lb monster going through your trash at about 5 a.m.? And he wasn't intimidated by anyone.


----------



## Anguille

Thank you for your informative post, Allie. You and Ravi certainly think alike about dogs breeds. You differ concerning the banning of certain dog breeds. 

Ravi, the Cafeteria Progressive, calls for a ban on the breeding of pit bull dogs because she doesn't like the looks of her neighbor's pets  -  much the same way her neighbors supported a ban on smoking in restaurant's in Ravi's hometown because these and other neighbors had finally had it up to their eyeballs with Ravi always puffing away while they and others at the table were trying to enjoy their meal. 


Allie, this statement of yours bears repeating as it is absolutely true.

*"It's stupid to kid yourself about the degree of potential any animal has for deadly behavior. I have horses, who certainly aren't prey animals...but I will be the first to tell you they are very, VERY dangerous.*"


----------



## manifold

btw Ang, I still support your right to choose...










...to own a pit bull, among other things.


----------



## Anguille

Anguille said:


> Thank you for your informative post, Allie. You and Ravi certainly think alike about dogs breeds. You differ concerning the banning of certain dog breeds.
> 
> Ravi, the Cafeteria Progressive, calls for a ban on the breeding of pit bull dogs because she doesn't like the looks of her neighbor's pets  -  much the same way her neighbors supported a ban on smoking in restaurant's in Ravi's hometown because these and other neighbors had finally had it up to their eyeballs with Ravi always puffing away while they and others at the table were trying to enjoy their meal.
> 
> 
> Allie, this statement of yours bears repeating as it is absolutely true.
> 
> *"It's stupid to kid yourself about the degree of potential any animal has for deadly behavior. I have horses, who certainly aren't prey animals...but I will be the first to tell you they are very, VERY dangerous.*"


Okay, I'll concede that Ravi's call for a ban on the breeding of pit bulls owes just as much to her desire for a better society as it does her pit pull phobia. But that still makes her a progressive.


----------



## Anguille

I lay down with dogs. And woke up with fleas.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

Anguille said:


> I lay down with dogs. And woke up with fleas.




Perfect for JD!


----------



## Anguille

Who?


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773;

The girl who had her dog's puppies: JD_20


----------



## Anguille

I never saw that. Does that mean she's a bitch?


----------

