# Maduro Orders Seizure of Closed Venezuela Factories, Jailing of Owners



## bripat9643

The Venezuelan government doubles down on stupid as the country swirls ever faster down the socialist toilet bowl:

Maduro in crackdown under Venezuela emergency decree​
_Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on Saturday ordered authorities to seize factories that have stopped production and jail their owners, a day after declaring a state of emergency to combat the country's economic crisis. "We must take all measures to recover productive capacity, which is being paralyzed by the bourgeoisie," he told a rally in Caracas. "Anyone who wants to halt (production) to sabotage the country should get out, and those who do must be handcuffed and sent to the PGV (Venezuelan General Penitentiary)," he said._​


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## P F Tinmore

The shortages in Venezuela are manufactured by the elites as an excuse to overthrow the government.

I read someplace about a year ago that they found a warehouse full of toilet paper but the stores had none.


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## bripat9643

P F Tinmore said:


> The shortages in Venezuela are manufactured by the elites as an excuse to overthrow the government.
> 
> I read someplace about a year ago that they found a warehouse full of toilet paper but the stores had none.



ROFL!  That's exactly the kind of conspiracy theory some Stalinist flack for the government might give the press.  Truly pathetic and despicable.

I doubt your story is true, but even if it is, why should a private company sell its product below cost?  However, it sounds just like another example of a Stalinist making excuses for his incompetent bosses.

You're a special kind of douche bag who belongs in Venezuela, not in a free country.


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## elektra

If I can quote the OP's source, which leaves out one fact, Venezuela's Electricity is 60% Renewable energy! 

Venezuela is suffering a power shortage because it relies on Renewable Energy!



> Venezuela has the world's largest oil reserves, but is mired in a crippling recession exacerbated by an electricity crisis that has forced the government to decree daily power cuts across most of the country, close schools on Fridays and reduce the workweek to two days for government employees.


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## P F Tinmore

bripat9643 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shortages in Venezuela are manufactured by the elites as an excuse to overthrow the government.
> 
> I read someplace about a year ago that they found a warehouse full of toilet paper but the stores had none.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL!  That's exactly the kind of conspiracy theory some Stalinist flack for the government might give the press.  Truly pathetic and despicable.
> 
> I doubt your story is true, but even if it is, why should a private company sell its product below cost?  However, it sounds just like another example of a Stalinist making excuses for his incompetent bosses.
> 
> You're a special kind of douche bag who belongs in Venezuela, not in a free country.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding? The oligarchs, with the help of the US, have been trying to take down that government from day one.

*The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, Chavez, The Coup*


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## georgephillip

P F Tinmore said:


> The shortages in Venezuela are manufactured by the elites as an excuse to overthrow the government.
> 
> I read someplace about a year ago that they found a warehouse full of toilet paper but the stores had none.


"US relations with Venezuela illustrate the specific mechanisms with which an imperial power seeks to sustain client states and overthrow independent nationalist governments. By examining US strategic goals and its tactical measures, we can set forth several propositions about (1) the nature and instruments of imperial politics, (2) the shifting context and contingencies influencing the successes and failures of specific policies, and (3) the importance of regional and global political alignments and priorities.1"
US-Venezuela Relations:  A Case Study of Imperialism and Anti-Imperialism  |  Dissident Voice
*Venezuela and Brazil have been targeted for the same treatment Chile received forty years ago:*
"Revelations that President Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to 'make the economy scream' in Chile to 'prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him,' prompted a major scandal in the mid-1970s, and a major investigation by the U.S. Senate."
Chile and the United States: Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup, September 11, 1973


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## P F Tinmore

Same old shit, different platter.


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## georgephillip

P F Tinmore said:


> Same old shit, different platter.


*Haiti is a prime example of how the "magic of compound interest" grows debt faster than even he most productive economy can pay them off:
*
"Driven by the mathematics of compound interest – savings lent out to grow exponentially – the overgrowth of debt is at the root of today’s economic crisis. Creditors make money by leaving their savings to accrue interest, doubling and redoubling their claims on the economy. This dynamic draws more and more control over labor, land, industry and tax revenue into the hands of creditors, concentrating property ownership and government in their hands. *The way societies have coped with this deepening indebtedness should be the starting point of financial theorizing."*
http://store.counterpunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Killing-The-Host_PDF_V7.pdf (p. 28)

*This phenomena of exponentially compounding debts threatening the stability of society has been going on since the Sumerians over 5000 years ago.

The only answer is Jubilee*


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

P F Tinmore said:


> The shortages in Venezuela are manufactured by the elites as an excuse to overthrow the government.
> 
> I read someplace about a year ago that they found a warehouse full of toilet paper but the stores had none.



Yes well that is exactly the kind of thing they would expect stupid people to believe


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## tinydancer

Oh boy. Just to put it out there my relationship with South America in the here and now involves a little dog called Paco. 

I'm going to put this out there right front and center and then a mega business that his owner is.

SA is so intricate. I'm trying to make a joke on the bosses and a chichi. I have no idea why we treat these peoples as one monolithic culture. 

I do food. When I cook Chilean I do not cook Brazillian. When I cook Antiquan I do not cook Jamaican. 

I want everyone left right and center please stop treating people as they are such small pieces in time. What the hell is wrong with all of you?


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## tinydancer

P F Tinmore said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shortages in Venezuela are manufactured by the elites as an excuse to overthrow the government.
> 
> I read someplace about a year ago that they found a warehouse full of toilet paper but the stores had none.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL!  That's exactly the kind of conspiracy theory some Stalinist flack for the government might give the press.  Truly pathetic and despicable.
> 
> I doubt your story is true, but even if it is, why should a private company sell its product below cost?  However, it sounds just like another example of a Stalinist making excuses for his incompetent bosses.
> 
> You're a special kind of douche bag who belongs in Venezuela, not in a free country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you kidding? The oligarchs, with the help of the US, have been trying to take down that government from day one.
> 
> *The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, Chavez, The Coup*
Click to expand...


Want to know the failure?

He got suckered in by the US media. He let them make him a star.


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## georgephillip

*"The Turning Point: Chavez Defies the ‘war on Terror’: 2000-2001*
US-Venezuela Relations:  A Case Study of Imperialism and Anti-Imperialism  |  Dissident Voice
"The first decade of the new millennium was a tumultuous period which played a major role in defining US-Venezuelan relations. Several inter-related events polarized the hemisphere, weakened Washington’s influence, undermined collaborator-client regimes and led to a major confrontation with Venezuela."


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## waltky

Recall petition invalidated...
*



*
*Venezuela recall: Opposition leaders' signatures voided*
_Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - Venezuela's opposition leaders say their signatures on a petition for a referendum to oust President Nicolas Maduro have been invalidated._


> Former presidential candidate Henrique Capriles is among those who say their signatures have been ruled out for "failing to meet the requirements".  The Speaker of the National Assembly, Henry Ramos Allup, described the move as "shameful" and "a provocation".  The decision was announced on Friday by the National Electoral Council (CNE).  The electoral body's president, Tibisay Lucena, said more than 600,000 signatures had been invalidated.  The other voters who signed the petition - more than 1.3 million people - will need to turn up at regional electoral offices to confirm their identity later this month.  Voters will have five days from 20 June to have their signatures checked.
> 
> 'Dead voters and children'
> 
> The opposition handed over the petition on 2 May.  It said it had gathered the signatures of 1.85 million voters backing a recall referendum, many more than the 197,000 needed at this initial stage. The CNE said on Friday there were 1.97 million signatures on the list.  Mr Maduro's government said there was widespread fraud in the process.  It said the names of thousands of dead voters and children were on the petition.  More than 10,000 dead voters and more than 3,000 people under the voting age signed the forms, said Ms Lucena.  Mr Capriles said the electoral authorities were working alongside the government in order to derail the recall referendum process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henrique Capriles at a protest in Caracas​
> But he urged voters to get ready to comply with the CNE demand and go to government offices to have their identities checked later this month.  Another high-profile opposition activist, Lilian Tintori, also tweeted that her signature had been invalidated by the electoral body.  Ms Tintori is the wife of jailed opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez, sentenced last year for allegedly inciting violence in anti-government protests.  Ms Lucena warned that the process would be immediately suspended until order was restored if there was "any act of violence, trouble or aggression".
> 
> Venezuela is in a serious economic crisis, which the opposition blames on mistaken left-wing policies of Mr Maduro and his predecessor, the late Hugo Chavez.  The inflation rate is one of the highest in the world and there are long queues outside shops.  Mr Maduro says the shortage of goods is the result of an economic war waged by the country's elite against his government.  He defeated Mr Capriles in a tight election three years ago and was elected for a six-year term.
> 
> MORE


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## Contumacious

bripat9643 said:


> The Venezuelan government doubles down on stupid as the country swirls ever faster down the socialist toilet bowl:
> 
> Maduro in crackdown under Venezuela emergency decree​
> _Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on Saturday ordered authorities to seize factories that have stopped production and jail their owners, a day after declaring a state of emergency to combat the country's economic crisis. "We must take all measures to recover productive capacity, which is being paralyzed by the bourgeoisie," he told a rally in Caracas. "Anyone who wants to halt (production) to sabotage the country should get out, and those who do must be handcuffed and sent to the PGV (Venezuelan General Penitentiary)," he said._​




_*Nicolas Maduro spanish for Bernard Sanders*_


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## Rozman

I'm surprised the Libs here didn't offer a blame Bush opinion.


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## bripat9643

Rozman said:


> I'm surprised the Libs here didn't offer a blame Bush opinion.


You will notice they claim that what Maduro is doing isn't socialism.


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## georgephillip

"The assault against the Bolivarian revolution has intensified in the recent days and weeks. Editorials and front pages in US and Spanish newspapers are screaming about hunger in Venezuela and demanding the removal of the 'dictatorial regime'. 

"Ongoing scarcity problems have led to instances of looting. The right-wing opposition is attempting to trigger a presidential recall referendum, but is also threatening violent action and appealing to foreign powers, including in some case for military intervention. 

"What is really happening in Venezuela and how can these threats be faced?"

*What's happening in Venezuela as more to do with using black marker dollars to make the economy scream.

Venezuela – A Last Warning
*
"For ten years, the revolution was able to grant widespread reforms and massively improve the living standards of the masses. 

"This was accompanied by a process of political radicalisation in which the late president Chávez and the revolutionary masses pushed each other forward. 

"Socialism was declared as the aim of the Bolivarian revolution, there were wide ranging experiences of workers’ control, factories were occupied and expropriated, companies were re-nationalised. 

"Millions became active at all levels in an attempt to take their future into their own hands. 
*
"The motor force of the revolution and its main source of strength which allowed it to thwart all the attempts of the oligarchy and imperialism were the revolutionary masses, active, politically aware and engaged at all levels."*


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## LoneLaugher

There seems to be some weird disease afflicting USMB conservatives. Many of them are obsessed with news about Venezuela. Especially bad news.

Someone must have told them that posting horrible stories about how an ineffective despot in Venezuela is fucking up causes liberals to become embarrassed and want to start supporting nutbag conservative economic policies.

It doesn't.

There are lots of kinds of economic systems and lots of kinds of government systems. Venezuela doesn't represent anyone's ideal when it comes to either.

Ya dumb shit.


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## bripat9643

georgephillip said:


> "The assault against the Bolivarian revolution has intensified in the recent days and weeks. Editorials and front pages in US and Spanish newspapers are screaming about hunger in Venezuela and demanding the removal of the 'dictatorial regime'.
> 
> "Ongoing scarcity problems have led to instances of looting. The right-wing opposition is attempting to trigger a presidential recall referendum, but is also threatening violent action and appealing to foreign powers, including in some case for military intervention.
> 
> "What is really happening in Venezuela and how can these threats be faced?"
> 
> *What's happening in Venezuela as more to do with using black marker dollars to make the economy scream.
> 
> Venezuela – A Last Warning
> *
> "For ten years, the revolution was able to grant widespread reforms and massively improve the living standards of the masses.
> 
> "This was accompanied by a process of political radicalisation in which the late president Chávez and the revolutionary masses pushed each other forward.
> 
> "Socialism was declared as the aim of the Bolivarian revolution, there were wide ranging experiences of workers’ control, factories were occupied and expropriated, companies were re-nationalised.
> 
> "Millions became active at all levels in an attempt to take their future into their own hands.
> *
> "The motor force of the revolution and its main source of strength which allowed it to thwart all the attempts of the oligarchy and imperialism were the revolutionary masses, active, politically aware and engaged at all levels."*



What's your point?  How has socialism benefited the people of Venezuela?


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## bripat9643

LoneLaugher said:


> There seems to be some weird disease afflicting USMB conservatives. Many of them are obsessed with news about Venezuela. Especially bad news.
> 
> Someone must have told them that posting horrible stories about how an ineffective despot in Venezuela is fucking up causes liberals to become embarrassed and want to start supporting nutbag conservative economic policies.
> 
> It doesn't.
> 
> There are lots of kinds of economic systems and lots of kinds of government systems. Venezuela doesn't represent anyone's ideal when it comes to either.
> 
> Ya dumb shit.



Yes, we know.  The Socialist ideal is a triangle with four corners.  Unfortunately, every time they try to draw one it ends up having three corners.  Venezuela is the latest three sided triangle.


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## LoneLaugher

bripat9643 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be some weird disease afflicting USMB conservatives. Many of them are obsessed with news about Venezuela. Especially bad news.
> 
> Someone must have told them that posting horrible stories about how an ineffective despot in Venezuela is fucking up causes liberals to become embarrassed and want to start supporting nutbag conservative economic policies.
> 
> It doesn't.
> 
> There are lots of kinds of economic systems and lots of kinds of government systems. Venezuela doesn't represent anyone's ideal when it comes to either.
> 
> Ya dumb shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know.  The Socialist ideal is a triangle with four corners.  Unfortunately, every time they try to draw one it ends up having three corners.  Venezuela is the latest three sided triangle.
Click to expand...


Whoa.............deep! You are one complex dude.


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## georgephillip

bripat9643 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The assault against the Bolivarian revolution has intensified in the recent days and weeks. Editorials and front pages in US and Spanish newspapers are screaming about hunger in Venezuela and demanding the removal of the 'dictatorial regime'.
> 
> "Ongoing scarcity problems have led to instances of looting. The right-wing opposition is attempting to trigger a presidential recall referendum, but is also threatening violent action and appealing to foreign powers, including in some case for military intervention.
> 
> "What is really happening in Venezuela and how can these threats be faced?"
> 
> *What's happening in Venezuela as more to do with using black marker dollars to make the economy scream.
> 
> Venezuela – A Last Warning
> *
> "For ten years, the revolution was able to grant widespread reforms and massively improve the living standards of the masses.
> 
> "This was accompanied by a process of political radicalisation in which the late president Chávez and the revolutionary masses pushed each other forward.
> 
> "Socialism was declared as the aim of the Bolivarian revolution, there were wide ranging experiences of workers’ control, factories were occupied and expropriated, companies were re-nationalised.
> 
> "Millions became active at all levels in an attempt to take their future into their own hands.
> *
> "The motor force of the revolution and its main source of strength which allowed it to thwart all the attempts of the oligarchy and imperialism were the revolutionary masses, active, politically aware and engaged at all levels."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your point?  How has socialism benefited the people of Venezuela?
Click to expand...

Some more than others, it seems.

*"Being the ex-President's daughter pays off: Hugo Chavez's ambassador daughter is Venezuela's richest woman*

*Diario las Americas claims that Maria Gabriela Chavez, 35, has $4.2billion in assets held in American and Andorran banks*
*Hugo Chavez famously declared 'being rich is bad' and during his lifetime railed against the wealthy for being lazy and gluttonous *
*Efforts to determine Chavez's wealth have been made before, without much luck"*
Read more: The richest woman in Venezuela is Hugo Chavez's daughter 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## Contumacious

georgephillip said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The assault against the Bolivarian revolution has intensified in the recent days and weeks. Editorials and front pages in US and Spanish newspapers are screaming about hunger in Venezuela and demanding the removal of the 'dictatorial regime'.
> 
> "Ongoing scarcity problems have led to instances of looting. The right-wing opposition is attempting to trigger a presidential recall referendum, but is also threatening violent action and appealing to foreign powers, including in some case for military intervention.
> 
> "What is really happening in Venezuela and how can these threats be faced?"
> 
> *What's happening in Venezuela as more to do with using black marker dollars to make the economy scream.
> 
> Venezuela – A Last Warning
> *
> "For ten years, the revolution was able to grant widespread reforms and massively improve the living standards of the masses.
> 
> "This was accompanied by a process of political radicalisation in which the late president Chávez and the revolutionary masses pushed each other forward.
> 
> "Socialism was declared as the aim of the Bolivarian revolution, there were wide ranging experiences of workers’ control, factories were occupied and expropriated, companies were re-nationalised.
> 
> "Millions became active at all levels in an attempt to take their future into their own hands.
> *
> "The motor force of the revolution and its main source of strength which allowed it to thwart all the attempts of the oligarchy and imperialism were the revolutionary masses, active, politically aware and engaged at all levels."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your point?  How has socialism benefited the people of Venezuela?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some more than others, it seems.
> 
> *"Being the ex-President's daughter pays off: Hugo Chavez's ambassador daughter is Venezuela's richest woman*
> 
> *Diario las Americas claims that Maria Gabriela Chavez, 35, has $4.2billion in assets held in American and Andorran banks*
> *Hugo Chavez famously declared 'being rich is bad' and during his lifetime railed against the wealthy for being lazy and gluttonous *
> *Efforts to determine Chavez's wealth have been made before, without much luck"*
> Read more: The richest woman in Venezuela is Hugo Chavez's daughter
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Click to expand...



Georgy, You see, communism is ONLY for the stupid masses.

After the fall of the USSR it was disclosed that the commissars lived in opulent villas and had access to PRIVATE HEALTH CARE.


.


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## SuperDemocrat

P F Tinmore said:


> The shortages in Venezuela are manufactured by the elites as an excuse to overthrow the government.
> 
> I read someplace about a year ago that they found a warehouse full of toilet paper but the stores had none.



Just the other day one of the elites emailed me.  He told me that the best way to start a revolution is to deny the people toilet paper.   Not food, not water, but toilet paper because everyone know how cranky people get when they can't even wipe their ass.


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## SuperDemocrat

I fear the people of venezuela will go the way of north korea.


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## georgephillip

Contumacious said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The assault against the Bolivarian revolution has intensified in the recent days and weeks. Editorials and front pages in US and Spanish newspapers are screaming about hunger in Venezuela and demanding the removal of the 'dictatorial regime'.
> 
> "Ongoing scarcity problems have led to instances of looting. The right-wing opposition is attempting to trigger a presidential recall referendum, but is also threatening violent action and appealing to foreign powers, including in some case for military intervention.
> 
> "What is really happening in Venezuela and how can these threats be faced?"
> 
> *What's happening in Venezuela as more to do with using black marker dollars to make the economy scream.
> 
> Venezuela – A Last Warning
> *
> "For ten years, the revolution was able to grant widespread reforms and massively improve the living standards of the masses.
> 
> "This was accompanied by a process of political radicalisation in which the late president Chávez and the revolutionary masses pushed each other forward.
> 
> "Socialism was declared as the aim of the Bolivarian revolution, there were wide ranging experiences of workers’ control, factories were occupied and expropriated, companies were re-nationalised.
> 
> "Millions became active at all levels in an attempt to take their future into their own hands.
> *
> "The motor force of the revolution and its main source of strength which allowed it to thwart all the attempts of the oligarchy and imperialism were the revolutionary masses, active, politically aware and engaged at all levels."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your point?  How has socialism benefited the people of Venezuela?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some more than others, it seems.
> 
> *"Being the ex-President's daughter pays off: Hugo Chavez's ambassador daughter is Venezuela's richest woman*
> 
> *Diario las Americas claims that Maria Gabriela Chavez, 35, has $4.2billion in assets held in American and Andorran banks*
> *Hugo Chavez famously declared 'being rich is bad' and during his lifetime railed against the wealthy for being lazy and gluttonous *
> *Efforts to determine Chavez's wealth have been made before, without much luck"*
> Read more: The richest woman in Venezuela is Hugo Chavez's daughter
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Georgy, You see, communism is ONLY for the stupid masses.
> 
> After the fall of the USSR it was disclosed that the commissars lived in opulent villas and had access to PRIVATE HEALTH CARE.
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

*Thanks...the only place on the planet socialism will work as it should is in the US:
Google*
"Socialism in the United States began with utopian communities in the early 19th century such as the Shakers, the activist visionary Josiah Warren and intentional communities inspired on Charles Fourier. Labor activists—usually British, German, or Jewish immigrants—in 1876 founded the Socialist Labor Party."


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## bripat9643

georgephillip said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The assault against the Bolivarian revolution has intensified in the recent days and weeks. Editorials and front pages in US and Spanish newspapers are screaming about hunger in Venezuela and demanding the removal of the 'dictatorial regime'.
> 
> "Ongoing scarcity problems have led to instances of looting. The right-wing opposition is attempting to trigger a presidential recall referendum, but is also threatening violent action and appealing to foreign powers, including in some case for military intervention.
> 
> "What is really happening in Venezuela and how can these threats be faced?"
> 
> *What's happening in Venezuela as more to do with using black marker dollars to make the economy scream.
> 
> Venezuela – A Last Warning
> *
> "For ten years, the revolution was able to grant widespread reforms and massively improve the living standards of the masses.
> 
> "This was accompanied by a process of political radicalisation in which the late president Chávez and the revolutionary masses pushed each other forward.
> 
> "Socialism was declared as the aim of the Bolivarian revolution, there were wide ranging experiences of workers’ control, factories were occupied and expropriated, companies were re-nationalised.
> 
> "Millions became active at all levels in an attempt to take their future into their own hands.
> *
> "The motor force of the revolution and its main source of strength which allowed it to thwart all the attempts of the oligarchy and imperialism were the revolutionary masses, active, politically aware and engaged at all levels."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your point?  How has socialism benefited the people of Venezuela?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some more than others, it seems.
> 
> *"Being the ex-President's daughter pays off: Hugo Chavez's ambassador daughter is Venezuela's richest woman*
> 
> *Diario las Americas claims that Maria Gabriela Chavez, 35, has $4.2billion in assets held in American and Andorran banks*
> *Hugo Chavez famously declared 'being rich is bad' and during his lifetime railed against the wealthy for being lazy and gluttonous *
> *Efforts to determine Chavez's wealth have been made before, without much luck"*
> Read more: The richest woman in Venezuela is Hugo Chavez's daughter
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Georgy, You see, communism is ONLY for the stupid masses.
> 
> After the fall of the USSR it was disclosed that the commissars lived in opulent villas and had access to PRIVATE HEALTH CARE.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Thanks...the only place on the planet socialism will work as it should is in the US:
> Google*
> "Socialism in the United States began with utopian communities in the early 19th century such as the Shakers, the activist visionary Josiah Warren and intentional communities inspired on Charles Fourier. Labor activists—usually British, German, or Jewish immigrants—in 1876 founded the Socialist Labor Party."
Click to expand...


It never worked here either.


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## bripat9643

SuperDemocrat said:


> I fear the people of venezuela will go the way of north korea.


Either there will be a violent coup, or Venezuela will become a police state.


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## bripat9643

LoneLaugher said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be some weird disease afflicting USMB conservatives. Many of them are obsessed with news about Venezuela. Especially bad news.
> 
> Someone must have told them that posting horrible stories about how an ineffective despot in Venezuela is fucking up causes liberals to become embarrassed and want to start supporting nutbag conservative economic policies.
> 
> It doesn't.
> 
> There are lots of kinds of economic systems and lots of kinds of government systems. Venezuela doesn't represent anyone's ideal when it comes to either.
> 
> Ya dumb shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know.  The Socialist ideal is a triangle with four corners.  Unfortunately, every time they try to draw one it ends up having three corners.  Venezuela is the latest three sided triangle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whoa.............deep! You are one complex dude.
Click to expand...


I'm willing to bet that went right over your head.


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## georgephillip

bripat9643 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The assault against the Bolivarian revolution has intensified in the recent days and weeks. Editorials and front pages in US and Spanish newspapers are screaming about hunger in Venezuela and demanding the removal of the 'dictatorial regime'.
> 
> "Ongoing scarcity problems have led to instances of looting. The right-wing opposition is attempting to trigger a presidential recall referendum, but is also threatening violent action and appealing to foreign powers, including in some case for military intervention.
> 
> "What is really happening in Venezuela and how can these threats be faced?"
> 
> *What's happening in Venezuela as more to do with using black marker dollars to make the economy scream.
> 
> Venezuela – A Last Warning
> *
> "For ten years, the revolution was able to grant widespread reforms and massively improve the living standards of the masses.
> 
> "This was accompanied by a process of political radicalisation in which the late president Chávez and the revolutionary masses pushed each other forward.
> 
> "Socialism was declared as the aim of the Bolivarian revolution, there were wide ranging experiences of workers’ control, factories were occupied and expropriated, companies were re-nationalised.
> 
> "Millions became active at all levels in an attempt to take their future into their own hands.
> *
> "The motor force of the revolution and its main source of strength which allowed it to thwart all the attempts of the oligarchy and imperialism were the revolutionary masses, active, politically aware and engaged at all levels."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's your point?  How has socialism benefited the people of Venezuela?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some more than others, it seems.
> 
> *"Being the ex-President's daughter pays off: Hugo Chavez's ambassador daughter is Venezuela's richest woman*
> 
> *Diario las Americas claims that Maria Gabriela Chavez, 35, has $4.2billion in assets held in American and Andorran banks*
> *Hugo Chavez famously declared 'being rich is bad' and during his lifetime railed against the wealthy for being lazy and gluttonous *
> *Efforts to determine Chavez's wealth have been made before, without much luck"*
> Read more: The richest woman in Venezuela is Hugo Chavez's daughter
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Georgy, You see, communism is ONLY for the stupid masses.
> 
> After the fall of the USSR it was disclosed that the commissars lived in opulent villas and had access to PRIVATE HEALTH CARE.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Thanks...the only place on the planet socialism will work as it should is in the US:
> Google*
> "Socialism in the United States began with utopian communities in the early 19th century such as the Shakers, the activist visionary Josiah Warren and intentional communities inspired on Charles Fourier. Labor activists—usually British, German, or Jewish immigrants—in 1876 founded the Socialist Labor Party."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It never worked here either.
Click to expand...

It's never been tried at the right time.
Socialism was ascendant in parts of the US we would never expect today, like Oklahoma, when FDR saved capitalism from itself.

There's no FDR in sight. When the next inevitable capitalist crash happens, I believe this country will change in ways we can't even imagine today.


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## bripat9643

georgephillip said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
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> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's your point?  How has socialism benefited the people of Venezuela?
> 
> 
> 
> Some more than others, it seems.
> 
> *"Being the ex-President's daughter pays off: Hugo Chavez's ambassador daughter is Venezuela's richest woman*
> 
> *Diario las Americas claims that Maria Gabriela Chavez, 35, has $4.2billion in assets held in American and Andorran banks*
> *Hugo Chavez famously declared 'being rich is bad' and during his lifetime railed against the wealthy for being lazy and gluttonous *
> *Efforts to determine Chavez's wealth have been made before, without much luck"*
> Read more: The richest woman in Venezuela is Hugo Chavez's daughter
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Georgy, You see, communism is ONLY for the stupid masses.
> 
> After the fall of the USSR it was disclosed that the commissars lived in opulent villas and had access to PRIVATE HEALTH CARE.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Thanks...the only place on the planet socialism will work as it should is in the US:
> Google*
> "Socialism in the United States began with utopian communities in the early 19th century such as the Shakers, the activist visionary Josiah Warren and intentional communities inspired on Charles Fourier. Labor activists—usually British, German, or Jewish immigrants—in 1876 founded the Socialist Labor Party."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It never worked here either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's never been tried at the right time.
> Socialism was ascendant in parts of the US we would never expect today, like Oklahoma, when FDR saved capitalism from itself.
> 
> There's no FDR in sight. When the next inevitable capitalist crash happens, I believe this country will change in ways we can't even imagine today.
Click to expand...


Socialism only works at the right time?  Really?  Capitalism works every time it's tried, whenever it's tried.  What you're really saying is that Socialism has never worked.  There is no right time for socialism because it requires suspending the laws of economics.

FDR didn't save capitalism.  He came very close to killing it.  Depressions are what happens when liberals try to cure recessions.  Then they blame the disastrous results of their tinkering on capitalism.


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## georgephillip

bripat9643 said:


> Socialism only works at the right time? Really? Capitalism works every time it's tried, whenever it's tried. What you're really saying is that Socialism has never worked. There is no right time for socialism because it requires suspending the laws of economics.







Introduction to Karl Marx, Module on Stages of Development

"(C)apitalism: because of the eventual growth of commerce (and of human populations), feudal society began to accumulate capital, which, along with the increased debt incurred by the aristocracy, eventually led to the English Revolution of 1640 and the French Revolution of 1789, both of which opened the way for the establishment of a society structured around commodities and profit (i.e. capitalism). In such a society, the proletariat is fooled into believing that s/he is free because s/he is paid for his/her labor. *In fact, the transformation of labor into an abstract quantity that can be bought and sold on the market leads to the exploitation of the proletariat, benefitting a small percentage of the population in control of capital. *

"The working class thus experiences alienation since the members of this class feel they are not in control of the forces driving them into a given job.

"The reason for this situation is that someone else owns the means of production, which are treated like private property."
Introduction to Karl Marx, Module on Stages of Development
*Capitalism is a particular stage of history like feudalism and slavery, and like its predecessors, it too will collapse.

The sooner the better!*


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## georgephillip

bripat9643 said:


> FDR didn't save capitalism. He came very close to killing it. Depressions are what happens when liberals try to cure recessions. Then they blame the disastrous results of their tinkering on capitalism


*FDR saved your greedy ass from 
Huey Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
"Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed The Kingfish, was an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a member of the United States Senate from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. A Democrat, he was an outspoken populist who denounced the rich and the banks, and called for '*Share our Wealth*.'".


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## bripat9643

georgephillip said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FDR didn't save capitalism. He came very close to killing it. Depressions are what happens when liberals try to cure recessions. Then they blame the disastrous results of their tinkering on capitalism
> 
> 
> 
> *FDR saved your greedy ass from
> Huey Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> "Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed The Kingfish, was an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a member of the United States Senate from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. A Democrat, he was an outspoken populist who denounced the rich and the banks, and called for '*Share our Wealth*.'".
Click to expand...


Huey Long was as corrupt as the day is long.


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## georgephillip

bripat9643 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FDR didn't save capitalism. He came very close to killing it. Depressions are what happens when liberals try to cure recessions. Then they blame the disastrous results of their tinkering on capitalism
> 
> 
> 
> *FDR saved your greedy ass from
> Huey Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> "Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed The Kingfish, was an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a member of the United States Senate from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. A Democrat, he was an outspoken populist who denounced the rich and the banks, and called for '*Share our Wealth*.'".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huey Long was as corrupt as the day is long.
Click to expand...

So was FDR.
Trump, both Clintons and all the Bushes are also as corrupt as the day is long.
I blame the profit motive.
You?


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## bripat9643

georgephillip said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FDR didn't save capitalism. He came very close to killing it. Depressions are what happens when liberals try to cure recessions. Then they blame the disastrous results of their tinkering on capitalism
> 
> 
> 
> *FDR saved your greedy ass from
> Huey Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> "Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed The Kingfish, was an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a member of the United States Senate from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. A Democrat, he was an outspoken populist who denounced the rich and the banks, and called for '*Share our Wealth*.'".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huey Long was as corrupt as the day is long.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So was FDR.
> Trump, both Clintons and all the Bushes are also as corrupt as the day is long.
> I blame the profit motive.
> You?
Click to expand...


There's no evidence of Trump being corrupt.  The others are all lifelong politicians, but you blame the profit motive?


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## georgephillip

bripat9643 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
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> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
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> georgephillip said:
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> 
> 
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> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FDR didn't save capitalism. He came very close to killing it. Depressions are what happens when liberals try to cure recessions. Then they blame the disastrous results of their tinkering on capitalism
> 
> 
> 
> *FDR saved your greedy ass from
> Huey Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> "Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed The Kingfish, was an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a member of the United States Senate from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. A Democrat, he was an outspoken populist who denounced the rich and the banks, and called for '*Share our Wealth*.'".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huey Long was as corrupt as the day is long.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So was FDR.
> Trump, both Clintons and all the Bushes are also as corrupt as the day is long.
> I blame the profit motive.
> You?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's no evidence of Trump being corrupt.  The others are all lifelong politicians, but you blame the profit motive?
Click to expand...

T*he profit motive buys and sells politicians like newspapers. Why would you think politicians are confused about who supplies their golden parachutes.
If you are saying Trump is not corrupt..*.

"For a long time, conservatives like me have made a point about Hillary supporters: They tend to stipulate that she has behaved in corrupt, mendacious ways. They really won’t argue back with you. They just say, 'I want her anyway. She’s for abortion,' ..." 

"I have noticed something similar with Trump supporters. 

"They won’t really argue with you about corruption and other flaws. 

*"They don’t want to hear about Trump University, Trump Vodka, Trump Steaks, the eminent-domain stuff, the stiffing of creditors, the bankruptcies, the hiring practices at the club in Palm Beach, the donations to the worst of the Dem politicians (including Hillary), etc. *

"They just want what they want. 

"Recruiters for Trump University were instructed to avoid facts, ideas, solutions, and the like. They were to sell 'feelings.'”

Read more at: Trump, Hillary, and Their Supporters


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## bripat9643

georgephillip said:


> bripat9643 said:
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> georgephillip said:
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> bripat9643 said:
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> 
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> georgephillip said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FDR didn't save capitalism. He came very close to killing it. Depressions are what happens when liberals try to cure recessions. Then they blame the disastrous results of their tinkering on capitalism
> 
> 
> 
> *FDR saved your greedy ass from
> Huey Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> "Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed The Kingfish, was an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a member of the United States Senate from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. A Democrat, he was an outspoken populist who denounced the rich and the banks, and called for '*Share our Wealth*.'".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huey Long was as corrupt as the day is long.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So was FDR.
> Trump, both Clintons and all the Bushes are also as corrupt as the day is long.
> I blame the profit motive.
> You?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's no evidence of Trump being corrupt.  The others are all lifelong politicians, but you blame the profit motive?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> T*he profit motive buys and sells politicians like newspapers. Why would you think politicians are confused about who supplies their golden parachutes.
> If you are saying Trump is not corrupt..*.
> 
> "For a long time, conservatives like me have made a point about Hillary supporters: They tend to stipulate that she has behaved in corrupt, mendacious ways. They really won’t argue back with you. They just say, 'I want her anyway. She’s for abortion,' ..."
> 
> "I have noticed something similar with Trump supporters.
> 
> "They won’t really argue with you about corruption and other flaws.
> 
> *"They don’t want to hear about Trump University, Trump Vodka, Trump Steaks, the eminent-domain stuff, the stiffing of creditors, the bankruptcies, the hiring practices at the club in Palm Beach, the donations to the worst of the Dem politicians (including Hillary), etc. *
> 
> "They just want what they want.
> 
> "Recruiters for Trump University were instructed to avoid facts, ideas, solutions, and the like. They were to sell 'feelings.'”
> 
> Read more at: Trump, Hillary, and Their Supporters
Click to expand...


When you talk about "corruption" you're always talking about politicians who sell out their constituents for personal gain.  So how is capitalism to blame for a quality that is inherent in government?


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## georgephillip

bripat9643 said:


> georgephillip said:
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> bripat9643 said:
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> georgephillip said:
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> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> *FDR saved your greedy ass from
> Huey Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> "Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed The Kingfish, was an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a member of the United States Senate from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. A Democrat, he was an outspoken populist who denounced the rich and the banks, and called for '*Share our Wealth*.'".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huey Long was as corrupt as the day is long.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So was FDR.
> Trump, both Clintons and all the Bushes are also as corrupt as the day is long.
> I blame the profit motive.
> You?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There's no evidence of Trump being corrupt.  The others are all lifelong politicians, but you blame the profit motive?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> T*he profit motive buys and sells politicians like newspapers. Why would you think politicians are confused about who supplies their golden parachutes.
> If you are saying Trump is not corrupt..*.
> 
> "For a long time, conservatives like me have made a point about Hillary supporters: They tend to stipulate that she has behaved in corrupt, mendacious ways. They really won’t argue back with you. They just say, 'I want her anyway. She’s for abortion,' ..."
> 
> "I have noticed something similar with Trump supporters.
> 
> "They won’t really argue with you about corruption and other flaws.
> 
> *"They don’t want to hear about Trump University, Trump Vodka, Trump Steaks, the eminent-domain stuff, the stiffing of creditors, the bankruptcies, the hiring practices at the club in Palm Beach, the donations to the worst of the Dem politicians (including Hillary), etc. *
> 
> "They just want what they want.
> 
> "Recruiters for Trump University were instructed to avoid facts, ideas, solutions, and the like. They were to sell 'feelings.'”
> 
> Read more at: Trump, Hillary, and Their Supporters
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you talk about "corruption" you're always talking about politicians who sell out their constituents for personal gain.  So how is capitalism to blame for a quality that is inherent in government?
Click to expand...

*Corruption is endemic to capitalism. When government bureaucrats abuse offices for personal gain, it is usually financial gain and capitalists have the money. Capitalists also have the most incentive to bribe government for favorable tax and trade policies that advance their own interests often at the expense of the majority of national stakeholders.*

*Political Corruption and Capitalism*

"What chiefly drives this sort of political corruption today is capitalism's structure. 

"For many capitalist enterprises, competitive and other pressures exist to increase profits, growth rates, and/or market share. 

"Their boards and top managers seek to find cheaper produced inputs and cheaper labor power, to extract more output from their workers, to sell their outputs at the highest possible prices and to find more profitable technologies. 

"The structure provides them with every incentive of financial gain and/or career security and advancement to behave in those ways. 

"Thus, boards and top managers seek the maximum obtainable assistance of government officials in all these areas and also try to pay the least possible portion of their net revenues as taxes. Boards of directors tap their corporations' profits to corrupt mostly the top echelons of the government bureaucracy, those needed to make advantageous official decisions."


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