# Russia threatens Poland for Soviet memorial tear down.



## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 24, 2017)

Is this the Russia Conservatives are fighting for, one with Soviet sentiments, that bullies it's neighbors?

Russia preparing retaliation against Poland over war memorial row: agencies

July 19, 2017 / 12:25 PM / 5 days ago
*Russia preparing retaliation against Poland over war memorial row: agencies*



2 Min Read

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia is preparing retaliatory measures against Poland to punish it for what Moscow says is an illegal and immoral plan to tear down Soviet-era World War Two monuments, an ally of President Vladimir Putin said on Wednesday.

Polish President Andrzej Duda on Monday approved amendments to a law banning the promotion of communism and ordering the removal within a year of Soviet statues, including those that commemorate the Red Army.

Valentina Matviyenko, speaker of the Russian upper house of parliament and a close Putin ally, strongly criticized the move on Wednesday and said the Russian Foreign Ministry was drawing up retaliatory "measures," Russian news agencies reported.

The dispute centers on the two countries' differing interpretations of history.

Russia says the Polish move spits in the faces of the more than 600,000 Soviet troops who lost their lives liberating Poland from the Nazis.

But many Poles today say they view the Soviet troops as occupiers, not liberators. Poland was under Soviet control for over four decades after the Second World War and the last Russian soldiers only left in 1993.

When asked about Matviyenko's comments, the Russian Foreign Ministry referred Reuters to a statement it issued on Tuesday which said Poland's actions would trigger "consequences" for Warsaw.

The statement said the Polish move violated a 1992-1994 Russo-Polish agreement in which Poland had pledged to protect such monuments.

"The Polish authorities understand very well what a serious insult they are delivering to the Russian people and the people of countries that used to be part of the USSR," the statement said. "Nevertheless, in Warsaw they are consciously going ahead with this outrageous provocation."

Reporting by Andrew Osborn in Moscow and Lidia Kelly in Warsaw; Editing by Jack Stubbs


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 24, 2017)

Fuck the Russians.
Dump those monuments in a septic pit.


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## Stratford57 (Jul 24, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Fuck the Russians.
> Dump those monuments in a septic pit.


Toddster, I was hoping you were becoming smarter. Oh, well... How did Russians insult you? Looks like you don't know much about Russians (except for propaganda).

BTW, Israel condemns Polish actions same way:

the people of Russia and Israel suffered the most from the fascism during World War II, and "the cases of desecrating memorials to the soldiers that gave their lives in the fight against fascism are completely inadmissible, to say nothing about legal justification of these criminal actions."
Israel Parliament Adopts Decree on Polish Decision to Demolish Soviet Monuments
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For example, a telegram from the Polish Patriots’ Union states that Polish citizens fighting on the Soviet side – in the so-called Armia Ludowa, or People’s Army – “_have created a bridge that unites two brotherly nations_.”

A special address of the pro-Communist Polish forces, dated July 1944, calls for all Poles to join the fight against the Nazi occupiers. “_Give a proper welcome to our ally – the Red Army – that has great achievements in fighting the Germans. Help our military and Soviet troops to destroy the German forces_,” the document reads.

The Defense Ministry also emphasized the importance of numerous reports by Soviet military officers that described cases of mass executions, torture and looting committed by the Nazis against the Polish civilian population, as well as the barbaric destruction of civilian infrastructure and historical legacy by the Nazi troops.

Poland was occupied by the Nazis between 1939 and 1945. About 6 million Poles – 20 percent of the country’s population died in the war and occupation. *Over 40,000 Soviet soldiers gave their lives in the operation to liberate Poland.*
Declassified Russian Defense Ministry docs show Polish gratitude for WWII liberation
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Now compare to Ukrainian nationalists, who were fighting on Hitler side during WW2 and whom official Kiev glories now as heroes:
Polish Senate pays tribute to the citizens of the Second Polish Republic *brutally murdered by Ukrainian nationalists, says the resolution*.

On July 15, 2013, Poland's Sejm adopted a special resolution dedicated to the 70th anniversary of the Volyn massacre. The resolution stated that *crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army* were of "the nature of an ethnic cleansing with signs of genocide." The resolution also specifies *the number of Polish victims, killed in Volyn and Eastern Galicia in 1942-1945, to be around 100,000 people.*
Senate of Poland voted for recognizing Volyn 1940 massacre as a genocide
The Polish Senate adopted a resolution on recognizing Volyn tragedy genocide


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 24, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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Katyn massacre - Wikipedia

Fuck the Russians and their statues.


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## oldsoul (Jul 24, 2017)

But, I thought the Russians were our friends... 

The Russian "reset". Oops, that didn't work out.
"I'll be more flexible after the election." Flexible about what? yoga?
No problem that the Russians gained access to a bunch of U.S. uranium. Nothing to see here....
Interesting that now the Russians are our most concerning adversary. Oh, right, a Republican is in office now, I almost forgot...


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 24, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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Liberation, or Occupation of Poland by Soviets?


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 24, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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Thanks for proving Israel's opinion doesn't matter, if they support ruthless tyrants like Soviets.


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## Sbiker (Jul 26, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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It's logically... Stupid Khrushev and Putin tried to hide the truth for "friendship of nations", "positive relations"... They lied about Stalin's guilt in Katyn - but how I want they see your speech every day.

Unfortunately, Russian didn't shoot any officers in Katyn - it's just a Goebbels propaganda, it was known even in 1943, when Nazi starts it. But we, Russians, do have a cemeteries of millions invaders - Germans, Magyars, Italians, Japans, Frenches and so on. And we wouldn't fight with deads. But when you would change your anti-Russian rhetoric to actions - who knows, it could be of your final place too ))


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 26, 2017)

Sbiker said:


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*Unfortunately, Russian didn't shoot any officers in Katyn*

Bullshit.

*But we, Russians, do have a cemeteries of millions invaders*

Yes you do. Now take your statues in Poland back to Russia and stick them up your ass.


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## Stratford57 (Jul 26, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Over half a million of Soviet soldiers (Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians, even Jews) have fallen for deliberating Poland from Hitler Nazis. Now Polish "servants of the people" want to remove monuments to them (not statues, Toddster, the memorials!). Those Soviet soldiers have sacrificed their lives, what was their fault? SBiker is right: there are plenty of memorials to fallen foreign soldiers in Russia, nobody even admits a thought about removing them. It's a shame for Poland, the older people even remember how they were welcoming and greeting Soviet soldiers, who freed them and their cities from Germans. One guy Alexey Batyan (he's still alive, thanks God) even *saved whole city of Krakov* from being blown up completely.

Liberation of Poland: the Man who Saved Krakow

Looks like certain people want to rewrite the history and you are supporting them. But the truth will always remain the truth, and it's up to you if you want to figure it out (which is more difficult) or to choose an easy way and to fall for propaganda. But propaganda robs your mind and damages your brain. Look at liberals, they are the bright example of shifting mentality.


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## Sbiker (Jul 26, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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God, downed the Kachinski plane, already showed, who's right. You're don't agree with God?  



> *But we, Russians, do have a cemeteries of millions invaders*
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> Yes you do. Now take your statues in Poland back to Russia and stick them up your ass.



I agree with you. Bible also says " Do not give that which is holy to the dogs..." So, I think, Putin must take this memorials from Poland and establish them in Russian towns. To remember, who is Poland people and how we could act with them in future...


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## Sbiker (Jul 26, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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It's not reason for them, all humanistic arguments is nothing for Poland. They respect only brute force... So, while Russia is not ready to show force, to talk with them is a action with void effect... Germans already knew it - so, they could rule of Poland mood as they want


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## BlackFlag (Jul 26, 2017)

oldsoul said:


> But, I thought the Russians were our friends...
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> The Russian "reset". Oops, that didn't work out.
> "I'll be more flexible after the election." Flexible about what? yoga?
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How much U.S. uranium did Russia get? oldsoul


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## Sbiker (Jul 26, 2017)

BlackFlag said:


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Uranium? To Russia from US? WTF? We have enough own uranium... :-\


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## BlackFlag (Jul 26, 2017)

Sbiker said:


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The answer is not a drop.  I want oldsoul to realize he is easily fooled.


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## Bleipriester (Jul 26, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


> Toddster, I was hoping you were becoming smarter. Oh, well... How did Russians insult you? Looks like you don't know much about Russians (except for propaganda).
> 
> BTW, Israel condemns Polish actions same way:


Big witch hunt. Those are witnesses of time and shouldn´t be destroyed by fanatics. Like ISIS smashing antique constructions.




Stratford57 said:


> the people of Russia and Israel suffered the most from the fascism during World War II, and "the cases of desecrating memorials to the soldiers that gave their lives in the fight against fascism are completely inadmissible, to say nothing about legal justification of these criminal actions."
> Israel Parliament Adopts Decree on Polish Decision to Demolish Soviet Monuments
> ----


There was no Israel back then. The majority of the Jews were German.




Stratford57 said:


> Poland was occupied by the Nazis between 1939 and 1945. About 6 million Poles – 20 percent of the country’s population died in the war and occupation. *Over 40,000 Soviet soldiers gave their lives in the operation to liberate Poland.*
> Declassified Russian Defense Ministry docs show Polish gratitude for WWII liberation
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Nope, no liberation here. Let us remember that Stalin invaded Poland in 1939 with Hitler. Also, Stalin´s regime was in no way more humanitarian than Hitler´s. Up to 60 million Russians were murdered by the Stalin regime. Stalin was labeled a criminal by his own party after his death. Also, downplaying the millions of casualties caused by Stalin´s doctrine of canon fodder is an insult to the fallen.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 26, 2017)

WWll started when Hitler invaded the western half of Poland, and then Britain and France declared war on Germany. Yet nothing was said about Russia invading eastern Poland at the same time.

Then at the end of WWll all of Poland was handed over to Russia, and they were enslaved by the brutal Soviet communists for several decades.

So I don't blame the Polish people for wanting to rid their country of anything Russian.   .....


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## Stratford57 (Jul 26, 2017)

Sunni Man said:


> WWll started when Hitler invaded the western half of Poland, and then Britain and France declared war on Germany. Yet nothing was said about Russia invading eastern Poland at the same time.
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> Then at the end of WWll all of Poland was handed over to Russia, and they were enslaved by the brutal Soviet communists for several decades.
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> So I don't blame the Polish people for wanting to rid their country of anything Russian.   .....



What do you guys know about deliberation of Europe from Germans and from where? We (the people from Russia, Belarus, Eastern Ukraine [quite a few Western Ukrainians were fighting on Hitler's side and now official Kiev glorifies them as heroes!], Georgia, Armenia) know about it from our own family members, from friend's and neighbor's family members who participated WW2. Each family of ours has had a few (if not several) members who knew about WW2 from *their own experience *and they all were telling us how happy Europeans were to see Russians (which included basically all nationalities living in USSR) deliberating them from Germans and they didn't care if those Russians were "brutal Communists" or not. Those who have been under Germans could never forget that horrible time, some of them are still alive and a telling the truth about it.

BTW, "brutal Soviet Communists" is another myth you guys are stuffed with probably from your anti-Russian text-books. Not everybody in Soviet Union was a communist, not at all. I'm not sure if Communist party included even half of population, I doubt it. For example, none of my family members has ever been a member of Communist party.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 26, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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*Over half a million of Soviet soldiers (Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians, even Jews) have fallen for deliberating Poland from Hitler Nazis.*

The Soviets, who decided to split Poland with Hitler, and later lost soldiers fighting the Nazis in Poland before enslaving Poland for 40 plus years can take their monuments back to Russia.

*Looks like certain people want to rewrite the history*

Like the a-holes who call Soviet enslavement "liberation".
I hate those guys.
They should stick a Commie monument up their ass. I'll help!
*
But propaganda robs your mind and damages your brain.*

And vodka. Vodka and propaganda are the worst.


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## Stratford57 (Jul 26, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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What a pile of BS not based on any historical facts. You are just ignorant and proud of it. There is a saying:

Never start playing chess with a dove. He would scatter chess pieces, crap on the chessboard and after all he would proudly fly away as if he defeated everybody.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 26, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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*What a pile of BS not based on any historical facts.*

I agree, Soviet "liberation", what a bunch of crap.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 26, 2017)

Where are these Soviet Memorial Statues located?  Geographical location please.  Anyone?


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## oldsoul (Jul 26, 2017)

BlackFlag said:


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Don't know for sure, don't care. Merely illustrating a point. Was it lost on you?


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## BlackFlag (Jul 26, 2017)

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They didn't get any.  So your point is a falsehood.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 26, 2017)

Bleipriester said:


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Not true, more Jews lived in Poland, than in other countries in Europe at the time.

Most Jews have recent origins in Poland, most German, Russian, Ukrainian, and American Jews came to these lands from Poland, following the Partitions of Poland.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 26, 2017)

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If Poles only respect brute force, how come Poles used less brute force than most others in Europe, historically?

There's only a hand full of people in Europe in the league of Poles when it comes to it's lack of historic brute force, most notably Czechs, Slovaks, Finland, and the Baltic Nations.

You can tell people who respect brute force, by how much they support Israel, generally the might is right kind of people respect Israel's might.

In that regard than no Eastern Europeans would be that way.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 26, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Not just that, the Soviets made the Nazi German war effort possible, by supplying them much resources in the German - Soviet Credit Agreement / German - Soviet Commercial Agreement.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 26, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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You mean like how Poland tried to liberate Russia from the evil Soviets in the Polish - Soviet war?

If Poland completely won, far less Russians would have died.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 26, 2017)

Sunni Man said:


> WWll started when Hitler invaded the western half of Poland, and then Britain and France declared war on Germany. Yet nothing was said about Russia invading eastern Poland at the same time.
> 
> Then at the end of WWll all of Poland was handed over to Russia, and they were enslaved by the brutal Soviet communists for several decades.
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> So I don't blame the Polish people for wanting to rid their country of anything Russian.   .....



Soviets were killing ethnic Poles just before WW2.

Over 100,000 Poles were killed in the Polish Operation of the NKVD 1937 - 1938.

Actually, until 1938, it was obviously Soviets who were more brutal than the Nazis.


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## Stratford57 (Jul 26, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


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But Polish officials are not removing the NKVD memorials in Poland (those don't even exist). They are going to remove memorials to the fallen Soviet soldiers (half a million people!), who sacrificed their lives to deliberate Poland from Hitler troops. If they haven't, there would have been a lot fewer Poles in the world, including those who now are fighting with monuments.

A lot of myths are substituting the historical truth in some ignorant heads.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 26, 2017)

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Some Poles were raped, killed, and sent to Gulag's  by these  so called "Soviet liberator soldiers'


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## Pete7469 (Jul 26, 2017)

Good for Poland. Fuck the Soviets.

Now we need to dig Marx up from British soil and place him under a public toilet in Berlin.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 26, 2017)

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*
who sacrificed their lives to deliberate Poland from Hitler troops.*

What good was this "liberation" when it was replaced by Soviet enslavement?

*A lot of myths are substituting the historical truth in some ignorant heads.*

Like the myth that Stalin was better than Hitler, that the Commies were better than the Nazis.


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## IsaacNewton (Jul 26, 2017)

The Russians had a secret deal with Hitler, he would invade and occupy western Poland and the Russians would invade and occupy eastern Poland. Which they did. 

Poland is a member of NATO so Russia can suck the pipe. Russia thinks they are in this new era where they can threaten all the rest of the world. Sorry Charlie those days are long gone. Poland is finally acknowledging Russias complicity with Hitler on invading and annexing Poland into Germany and Russia. Its way past time to remove all the Russians statues, flags, and memorials to their invasion of Poland. 

They sound like the whiners in the US who cry about the removal of the Confederate flag and statues and monuments to the losers of the south that fought against America.


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

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Poles came to Russia in 1612 and in 1812 (with Napoleon) as aggressors. Poland got a several Russian territories in 1921 while Russia was weak..

Why the western countries left Poland alone in 1939, faced to Hitler attack?  Because they didn't saw a difference between aggressive Poland and aggressive Germany. Poland always perform aggression against Russia, trying to take some of territories, but usually don't able to gather enough strength to act independently...



> There's only a hand full of people in Europe in the league of Poles when it comes to it's lack of historic brute force, most notably Czechs, Slovaks, Finland, and the Baltic Nations.



But this countries didn't organize concentration camps for Russian soldiers, to murder them in violation of Zheneva convention. 



> You can tell people who respect brute force, by how much they support Israel, generally the might is right kind of people respect Israel's might.
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> In that regard than no Eastern Europeans would be that way.



Because now Israel have a solid lobby in world politics. By the way, Osventsim was at Poland territory...


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


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First answer, where is about 80.000 Red Army soldiers, captured by Poland in Soviet-Poland war and didn't returned back after this war?


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 27, 2017)

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Some Russians invited in Poland in the Polish Muscovite War of 1605 - 1618.

Napoleon had liberated Poland.

Poland didn't attack the real Russia in the Polish - Soviet War, they had attacked only Soviets.


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> The Russians had a secret deal with Hitler, he would invade and occupy western Poland and the Russians would invade and occupy eastern Poland. Which they did.
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> Poland is a member of NATO so Russia can suck the pipe. Russia thinks they are in this new era where they can threaten all the rest of the world. Sorry Charlie those days are long gone. Poland is finally acknowledging Russias complicity with Hitler on invading and annexing Poland into Germany and Russia. Its way past time to remove all the Russians statues, flags, and memorials to their invasion of Poland.
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> They sound like the whiners in the US who cry about the removal of the Confederate flag and statues and monuments to the losers of the south that fought against America.



You're right, Russian statues must be at Russian territory... Putin have to return statues, either lands, they establishes, to Russia. There are not third way in this situation.


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

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So why do you punish statues of Russian soldiers for the crimes of Soviets?


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 27, 2017)

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The Red Army started the  Russian Civil War killing 4 - 16 million Russians, another 6 million died in the Volga Famine caused by resources taking from this war.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 27, 2017)

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Maybe because of this.

Soviet World War II crimes in Poland - dangvukinhquoc

In 1940 and the first half of 1941, the Soviets deported more than 1,200,000 Poles, most in four mass deportations. The first deportation took place February 10, 1940, with more than 220,000 sent to northern European Russia; the second on April 13, 1940, sending 320,000 primarily to Kazakhstan; a third wave in June-July 1940 totaled more than 240,000; the fourth occurred in June, 1941, deporting 300,000. Upon resumption of Polish-Soviet diplomatic relations in 1941, it was determined based on Soviet information that more than 760,000 of the deportees had died—a large part of those dead being children, who had comprised about a third of deportees.[45].


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

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Ok, but it's internal Russia deals, what's about Poland?

Words are just words. Stalin occupied Poland in 1939 it's a fact. NKVD murdered about 100.000 Poles. The best action to protest against it - remember all this people. By Names. Do you have at least one memorial at Poland, devoted to this people? I didn't hear about it. Instead all of this you have Katyn - a natural fake, abusing your real victims of Stalin's repressions too... WHY? Because Hoebbels ORDERED?

Memorials, you want to destroy - are not for Stalin, not for NKVD, not for any USSR executioner - for a simple Russian soldiers, dead in battle of Poland. At least they free Poland from Osventsim and Nurnberg process, paying own lifes for it - was is bad for Poland????? They are the same people, being in Gulag and so on. And now their memorials is main target for attack. Why? It seems, Poles don't do something independently, only if someone ORDER something...


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 27, 2017)

Sbiker said:


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By your logic Russia, should have Wehrmacht WW2 memorials in Russia, because they weren't the SS.


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

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No one original documents, only western phantasies based at few facts... But it's not your guilt, thank you, you at least try to read something..
Look here... Now in Kazakhstan are about 40.000 Poles. There was no mass migration in post-WWII of Poles from Kazakhstan - it's fact too... Where is 320.000 people - a whole population of Lublin? Stalin's regime murdered it during their way??? SO, where's cemetery for 320.000 (!!!) people. Who would count Pole people in western sources....

Try to read Stalin's documents... Real names, real people - very terrific... But truth..


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

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Let them be on territories, Wehrmacht consider as "liberated". At Ukraine - by the way, they now have memorials both to Wehrmacht and SS.

The same in Baltic countries.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 27, 2017)

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So, you're saying countries should dictate what they do?

Or do you think Putin's Russia should bully countries to get their pro-Soviet way?


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

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My oh my!
Just re-read your words.
You want to countries should not dictate, what to do, to others? Excellent... So, what's the deals for you about pro-Soviet way inside Russia? 

You don't want Soviet memorials at your streets? Ok, it's your choice. So, return them to Russia as-is - what's the problem?


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## Bleipriester (Jul 27, 2017)

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Category:Jewish surnames - Wikipedia


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## IsaacNewton (Jul 27, 2017)

Sbiker said:


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Russia doesn't own them.


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## Sbiker (Jul 27, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


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So, you intent to cancel property rights in relations of West countries with Russia? Following to your politicians, plundered diplomatic property from Russian Embassy in US? Ok, but when you would seat in prison of USSR 2.0, just remember - it was only YOURS initiative


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## IsaacNewton (Jul 27, 2017)

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Who said 'Russian Embassy'. No one but you. 

We're talking about everything else in Poland. And please who cares about the Soviet Union, they lost and are dead. Russia is small and can't threaten anyone. You talk like one of the alt-right nutjobs in America who like to threaten people here. Nobody is scared and nobody gives a shit. Get together with the alt-right in the US and drink vodka and Jack Daniels until  you pass out.


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## Stratford57 (Jul 27, 2017)

When I read some of those delusional posts like  “F.. Russians!” or “F..  Soviets!”, I think how wise were the Soviets insisting on Nuremberg Tribunal condemning all the war crimes of German Nazis and on strict documenting it. Otherwise I’m sure Western world elites would have already subscribed all those crimes to Soviet Union and Red Army. It has already been done in my failed state of Ukraine: poor children are learning the “history” where German Nazi’s crimes are subscribed to Russians. And Western Media are  very silent about that.

Rewriting the history of WW2 is another tool in anti-Russian propaganda. But… there still exist a lot of historical documents which Russia can use against all that dirt  the Western establishment is trying to stick to her.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 27, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


> When I read some of those delusional posts like  “F.. Russians!” or “F..  Soviets!”, I think how wise were the Soviets insisting on Nuremberg Tribunal condemning all the war crimes of German Nazis and on strict documenting it. Otherwise I’m sure Western world elites would have already subscribed all those crimes to Soviet Union and Red Army. It has already been done in my failed state of Ukraine: poor children are learning the “history” where German Nazi’s crimes are subscribed to Russians. And Western Media are  very silent about that.
> 
> Rewriting the history of WW2 is another tool in anti-Russian propaganda. But… there still exist a lot of historical documents which Russia can use against all that dirt  the Western establishment is trying to stick to her.



*Rewriting the history of WW2 is another tool in anti-Russian propaganda.*

Did Stalin agree to split Poland with Hitler?


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## Stratford57 (Jul 27, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> > When I read some of those delusional posts like  “F.. Russians!” or “F..  Soviets!”, I think how wise were the Soviets insisting on Nuremberg Tribunal condemning all the war crimes of German Nazis and on strict documenting it. Otherwise I’m sure Western world elites would have already subscribed all those crimes to Soviet Union and Red Army. It has already been done in my failed state of Ukraine: poor children are learning the “history” where German Nazi’s crimes are subscribed to Russians. And Western Media are  very silent about that.
> ...


 Toddster, It’s not my job to educate you and nobody can educate a person who’s refusing to be educated.

In 1945 after defeat of Nazi Germany  as a result of Potsdam conference German Baltic shore and Silesia have been given to Poland and Polish Gallichina has been given to Ukraine (not Russia, Toddster!).





Poland's old and new borders, 1945

BTW, Ukraine, who’s now whining about "being robbed with its territories" in the USSR, has entered the USSR after 1917 revolution without its current Eastern lands, without Gallichina and without Crimea. And in 1991 Ukraine was  twice bigger when exiting the USSR: it has annexed all those lands (mostly Russian land) given to Ukrainian republic within the  same country of USSR. I wonder, why you are not concerned about that fact, ha, Toddster?






CIS-EMO political analyst of an International Monitoring Organization, Stanislav Byshok:
The truth about Ukraine: Byshok's lecture at Brown University - Fort Russ

If you read this long article by a Polish (!) author, Toddster, you may stop posting your ignorant comments about Ukraine in future. Good luck!


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## Eloy (Jul 27, 2017)

The Soviets did rid Poland of the Nazis in 1945 and the Polish government did promise to protect and honor memorials to those Soviet troops who were killed in the process. It is dishonorable for the nationalist Polish government now to renege on its word.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 27, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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*It’s not my job to educate you*

Was my question too difficult?

What's wrong? Never learned the truth about WWII?


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 27, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The Soviets did rid Poland of the Nazis in 1945 and the Polish government did promise to protect and honor memorials to those Soviet troops who were killed in the process. It is dishonorable for the nationalist Polish government now to renege on its word.



The Soviets weren't much better than the Nazis, at the time, and between 1933 - 1938 the Soviets were actually worse than the Nazis.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 27, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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The core of the Kievan Rus was very close to Ukrainian, rather than Russian.

As a result Ukrainian type people's had been scattered in  small bands from Przemsyl to the Don River, and a core which united in Central Ukraine.


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## Eloy (Jul 28, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The Soviets did rid Poland of the Nazis in 1945 and the Polish government did promise to protect and honor memorials to those Soviet troops who were killed in the process. It is dishonorable for the nationalist Polish government now to renege on its word.
> ...


Nevertheless, it was the Soviet troops who rid Poland of the Nazis. Their dead deserve to be honored.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 28, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Was it better to freeze to Death in a Siberian Gulag, or to burn to Death in a Concentration Oven?


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## Sbiker (Jul 28, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The Soviets did rid Poland of the Nazis in 1945 and the Polish government did promise to protect and honor memorials to those Soviet troops who were killed in the process. It is dishonorable for the nationalist Polish government now to renege on its word.
> ...



Soviet soldiers didn't perform Holocaust at Poland territory... They STOPPED Holocaust anyhow. Or mass murder of 6 million jews is nothing significant for Poles now?


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## Sbiker (Jul 28, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> Eloy said:
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3128 Poles were died in GULag after war, from 60000 prisoned as Vermacht soldiers. You compare it with millions of holocausted jews? Poland uber alles and so on? Until next brute force...


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 28, 2017)

Sbiker said:


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Sure, Soviets were a better option for Poland, but that doesn't say much.

I'm pretty indifferent to the Jew Holocaust, personally.

Jews are incredibly anti-Polish, most of them blame Poland for the Holocaust.

Therefor I don't care about these people.


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## IsaacNewton (Jul 28, 2017)

Eloy said:


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If they hadn't first invaded and occupied eastern Poland as a conqueror with Adolph Hitler I'd say you have a point. But they did, so they can't claim to be the benevolent liberators of Poland.

Russia should offer to truck out any monuments the Poles don't want back to Russia. The ones that are too large are free to be destroyed by Poland. Russians already honor their own war dead. They can't insist another country be forced to do the same, a country they invaded and held prisoner behind the Iron Curtain for 45 years after WW2 was over.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2017)

Eloy said:


> SobieskiSavedEurope said:
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*
Their dead deserve to be honored.*

They can take the memorials to Russia and honor their dead at home.
Poland has no obligation to honor their enslavers.


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## Eloy (Jul 28, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> Eloy said:
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Neither was good.
Nor was it good for a Russian soldier to stop a bullet in Poland.


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## Eloy (Jul 28, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


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An agreement was already made in 1989 between Poland and Russia when the Poles gave their word that the monuments would be protected.
The word of the Poles should count for something.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2017)

Eloy said:


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How about these words? Fuck Russia.
Stick your monuments up your ass.


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## oldsoul (Jul 28, 2017)

BlackFlag said:


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So, your admitting that my point was lost on you. Thanks.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 28, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Soviets during the Warsaw Uprising did  next to nothing to help Poles.


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## Eloy (Jul 28, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> Eloy said:
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You seem to be suggesting that the Soviets did not rid Poland of the Nazis. No-one would agree with you.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2017)

Eloy said:


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*
You seem to be suggesting that the Soviets did not rid Poland of the Nazis.*

They replaced Nazi chains with Commie chains.
Thanks for nothing, asshole!


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 29, 2017)

Eloy said:


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The Soviets stopping at the Banks of Warsaw not to help Poles fight Nazis, but to wait until they were killed off.

This supports that Soviets were more interested in conquering Poland, rather than liberating Poland.


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## Stratford57 (Jul 29, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


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I wonder where all that BS you have been writing on so many pages comes from? Your hateful nature and your sick head?

There are NO historical documents supporting your BS. BTW, your nick doesn't make any sense. It's Red Army who saved Europe, not some Sobeski.


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## Correll (Jul 29, 2017)

An interesting conflict.


WWII did open with the joint Nazi Soviet invasion of Poland, and end with soviet oppression of Poland.

ON the other hand, quite a lot of russians, who had no input with soviet foreign policy, did die driving the nazis from Poland.


And Russia, is a large neighbor that it would be a good idea for the Poles to keep on reasonable terms.


Still, I would have to say the RUssians have to suck this one up.

Stalin was a fool and a monster and he was a Russian fool and a monster. 


They want to have people like and keep Russia memorials, they need to do better in the future.


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## Stratford57 (Jul 29, 2017)

Correll said:


> An interesting conflict.
> 
> 
> WWII did open with the joint Nazi Soviet invasion of Poland, and end with soviet oppression of Poland.
> ...



Historical facts:
1. Stalin was a monster.
2. The people of Soviet Union defeated Hitler Nazis on the USSR territory and in Eastern Europe. The price was 25 million of the lives of Soviet people (it's only officially, a lot more in reality) .

#1 and #2 don't contradict each other. We are not talking about monuments to Stalin in Europe. However fallen Soviet soldiers of all nationalities (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Georgians, Armenians, Moldavians, etc.) deserve some respect on the territories they sacrificed their lives for. It should be very simple to understand.


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## Correll (Jul 29, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


> Correll said:
> 
> 
> > An interesting conflict.
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WWII opened with the joint Nazi Soviet invasion of Poland. 

WWII ended with Poland being part of the Totalitarian Soviet Empire.


I cannot fault the Poles for their views on this.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 29, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


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Jan Sobieski helped save Europe from Islamic Turks.

Soviets on the other hand helped slave half of Europe.


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## Eloy (Jul 29, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> Stratford57 said:
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Were it not for the Soviets, Poles would be living as slaves in the Third Reich today.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 29, 2017)

Eloy said:


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If they hadn't divided up Poland with Hitler before the war, they'd be heroes instead of villains.
If they hadn't enslaved Eastern Europe for more than 4 decades, they'd be heroes instead of villains.
They're villains. They should take their monuments back to Russia.


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## Correll (Jul 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Nope. Berlin would have been nuked, and the Poles would have been free and independent from 45 on.


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## anotherlife (Jul 30, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


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Sobieski has also led to the abolishment of Poland in 1720.


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## anotherlife (Jul 30, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Eloy said:
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IN Polish schools, the state curriculum mandated, that all school children mourn the soviet soldiers as war heros and call the Polish soldiers as criminals and rapists.  Furthermore, Polish school curriculum also states that it is the criminal behavior of Polish soldiers why eastern Poland is not returned to Poland to this day. 
Hungary has the same in its own school curriculum about Hungarian soldiers.


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## anotherlife (Jul 30, 2017)

Stratford57 said:


> When I read some of those delusional posts like  “F.. Russians!” or “F..  Soviets!”, I think how wise were the Soviets insisting on Nuremberg Tribunal condemning all the war crimes of German Nazis and on strict documenting it. Otherwise I’m sure Western world elites would have already subscribed all those crimes to Soviet Union and Red Army. It has already been done in my failed state of Ukraine: poor children are learning the “history” where German Nazi’s crimes are subscribed to Russians. And Western Media are  very silent about that.
> 
> Rewriting the history of WW2 is another tool in anti-Russian propaganda. But… there still exist a lot of historical documents which Russia can use against all that dirt  the Western establishment is trying to stick to her.



Don't worry, there are even dirtier rewrites around your land.  For example, in the Czech Republic and France, they teach that it was Hungary that planned and started the two world wars, even though Hungary didn't even exist yet during those days.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 30, 2017)

anotherlife said:


> IsaacNewton said:
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> > Eloy said:
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I think you mean that in the Soviet era, Soviet Poland promoted such propaganda.


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## anotherlife (Jul 31, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> anotherlife said:
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Yes, that's what I was told, although it is still questionable how much power Polish pacifists have in Polish governance, to explain away why they block the question of reuniting Poland.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 31, 2017)

anotherlife said:


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Maybe because if Poland does, it will end up bombed like Serbia?


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 31, 2017)

anotherlife said:


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Really, but Jan Sobieski died in 1696?


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## anotherlife (Jul 31, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> anotherlife said:
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Yes. Possibly.  But these would be Russian bombers, not American.  So this would be less serious, maybe like the South China Sea military exercises.


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## anotherlife (Jul 31, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> anotherlife said:
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Yes, but it was his egotistic and short sighted military help for Vienna, that gave room for the crime syndicate, called Habsburgs, that took Poland off the map.  If Sobieski had not fallen to the phony Christian protection propaganda, Vienna would have become ottoman, and neither the habsburgs, nor the Hohenzollern would have existed to liquidate Poland.


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## SobieskiSavedEurope (Jul 31, 2017)

anotherlife said:


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Yeah, well the Ottoman Empire was much bigger than Poland, and would have eventually swallowed up Poland too.


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## anotherlife (Jul 31, 2017)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> anotherlife said:
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Not quite, because the Ottoman Empire relied on satellite states such as the principality of Transylvania to back up their western campaign from a territorial strategy point of view.  Was politically obvious at the time, especially considering, that the ottomans have nominated Hungarian speaking Hungarian nobles to the throne of Hungary to counter Habsburg claims to it.


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## Hyddan92 (Aug 7, 2017)

Good, the actions of the Red army is nothing worth honouring.


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